HX00065510 Columbia tatniUf rsiitp mtl)fCitpofllftt«lork CoUtse of ^JfjpsicianS anb g)urgcong Hibrarp Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2010 with funding from Open Knowledge Commons http://www.archive.org/details/reportfromselect1882grea REPORT. CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 7 August 1882. {Price Ss. Q d.] 340. H.— 1. 9. 82. Under 4 Ihs. 4 oz. WW. REPORT i(.i (I I' I. I / I' I I \. r I ! i ■> ^ I I 1 |: ^ I. \ FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS; TOGETHER WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, MINUTES OF EYIDEFCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to he Printed, 7 August 1882, ' ■•^r ' ' - ■ — -T^"^ =^ (. PS KiMC.&^So*"^! 1 Parliamenlar/ Agency- Canada Biildmn lining S' WesMninster 340. Si 93 Thursday, 23rd Februarj/ 1882. Contagious Diseases Acts. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appoiuted " to inquire into tlic Contagious Diseases Acts, 1866-1869, their administration, operation, and effect." Committee nominated of — Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Viscount Crichton. Mr. Burt. Mr. O'Shaughnessy. !Mr. ()!>bornc Morgan. Mr. Cobbold. General Burnaby. Sir Henry Wolff. Mr. Ernest Noel. Colonel Digby. Mr. "William Fowler, Mr. Moj)wood. Colonel Tottenham. Dr. Cameron. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Hanbury Tracy. TnAT the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records. That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. That all Reports and Returns relating thereto be referred to the said Com- mittee. That it be an Instruction to the Committee, That they have power to receive evidence which may be tendered concerning similar systems in British Colonies or in other countries, and to report whether the said Contagious Diseases Acts shall be maintained, amended, or repealed. Ordered, — [Thursdai/, 25th May 1882] : — That Mr. Cobbold be discharged, and Mr. Bulwer be added to the Committee. TABLE OF CONTENTS OF REPORT - ' - - - - p. REPORT P- PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE p. xxxi MINUTES OF EVIDENCE .--.... p. i APPENDIX p. 538 TABLE OF CONTENTS OF REPORT. Inteoductoet ------------p. iii Summary of the Contagious Diseases Acts, 1864-1869 - - - p. iv Repoet of the Royal Commission, 1871 - - - - - - p. vi FiEST Beanch of the Inquiry — Hygienic - - - - -. - V- '^ Severity of Venereal Disease --------- ibid. Comparisons of Stations and Periods instituted for the purposes of the Inquiry ------------p. x Effect of Lord Cardwell's Order -------- ibid. Presumption in favour of Acts diminishing Disease - _ - - ibid. Fluctuations of Spyhilis ---------- ibid. Detailed Plan of Comparisons of Stations and Periods instituted for the purposes of the Inquiry --------- jbid. Comparison as to Primary Venereal Sores between 14 Subjected and all Unsubjected Stations, 1861-67, 1867-72; 1860-63, 1870-73 - - p. xi Considerations as to Fluctuations of Primary Venereal Sores from 1860 to 1878 ------------- p. xi Comparison as to Secondary Syphilis between 14 Subjected and all Un- subjected Stations, 1861-67, 1867-72 ; 1860-63, 1870-73 - - - p. xii Importation of Syphilis from Subjected to Unsubjected Stations, and vice versa ------------- ibid . Comparison as to Gonorrhoea between 14 Subjected and all Unsubjected Stations, 1861-67, 1867-72 ; 1860-63, 1870-73 ----- p. xiii Comparisons between 14 Subjected and 14 Unsubjected Stations as to Primary Venereal Sores and Gonorrhoea up to 1873 - - - - ibid. Comparisons between 14 Subjected and all Unsubjected Stations from 1873 to 1878, as to Primary Venereal Sores, Syphilis, and Gonorrhoea - p. xiv Classification of Primary Venereal Sores - - - - - - p. xt Question as to Value of Examination of Women ----- ibid. Eifect of the Acts on the Efficiency of the Army ----- p. XTi Effect of the Acts on the Civil Population ------ p. xvii Consideration of Evidence given as to Reduction of Disease in Glasgow - ibid. State of Disease among Prostitutes in Subjected Stations - - - ibid. Opinion of Medical Profession --------p. xviii Second Branch of Inquiey — Constitutional, Moeal, and Social : Objections (on othee than Hygienic Grounds) to the Acts I. That they involve in Theory the Recognition and Encouragement of Vice by the State - - - - - -.- II. That they violate Constitutional Principles - - - . - HI. That in practice they increase Vice by making it Safe - - - IV. That they affect unfairly the Female Sex - - - - - V. That Virtuous Women may be, and are, brought under their Opera- tion ------------ VI. That they have increased Clandestine Prostitution - - - - 0.75. a 2 p. XVlll p. xviii p. XX ibid. ibid. p. xxi p. xxiii 328538 XXIU r ii 1 Second Brakch of Ikqviry— continued. Advantages (other than Hygienic) conferred by the Acts : I. Diminution of Prostitution in Subjected Districts - - - - p (1.) By the Deterrent Effect of the Acts P- ^^'^ (2 ) Bv the Spiritual and Moral Influences brought to bear on 'Women in Hospital " ■ '"'"• a \ By the opportunities they aftbrd the Police charged with the Administration of the Acts to suppress Brothels, and to trace and reclaim Women confined ni them - - - - »oi*-'- II. Diminution of Juvenile Prostitution p. xx\ III. Improvement in Physical Condition of Women - - - " ibul. IV. Promotion of public Order and Decency - - " " ■ Strong feeling in favour of the Acts in the Subjected Districts Imperfect acquaintance of many Witnesses hostile to the Acts with the Sul^- _^^,^^ jected Districts ----"""" Consideration of the suggestion that the Benefits conferred by the Acts might _^_^ be obtained by other Means ----'" Recommendations. I. Should the Acts be Repealed ? - - 1' ^^^'^^ II. Should the Acts be E.xtended? ''^"^• III. Should the Acts be Amended ? - - p. xxvm Additional Eeconimcndations -------- P- xxi\ ibid, ibid. E E P E T. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Contagious Diseases Acts, 1866 — 1869, their A.d.ininistration, Operation, and Effect; and who were instructed, That they have power to receive Evidence which may be tendered concerning similar systems in Britisli Colonies, or in other Countries, and to Report whether the ?aid Contagious Diseases Acts should be maintained, amended, or repealed ; Have agreed to the following REPORT :— INTRODUCTORY. After an inquiry, which has extended over a period almost unprecedented in the history of Parliamentary Committees, your Committee are in a position to present their Report. Your Committee were first appointed in June 18/9, on the motion of the Secretary of State for War, for the purpose of inquiring into the administra- tion, operation, and effect of the Contagious Diseases Acts, 1866-1869, and they were also empowered to receive evidence concerning similar systems in the British Colonies, or in other countries, and of reporting whether the Acts should be maintained, amended, extended, or repealed. Since that time they have been re-appointed four times, have examined 71 witnesses, and have sat 68 days. Owing to the lamented death of the Right Honourable W. N. Massey, who occujned the Chair of your Committee duripg the Sessions 1879 — 1881, your Committee have been deprived of the advantage which they would have derived, in the subsequent conduct of their inquiry, and in the preparation of their Report, from his intimate acquaintance with the history and working of the Acts. It will be observed, if the lists of the Committee, as nominated in 18/9, and in the second Session of 1880, are compared, that the Dissolution and General Election of ttie latter year considerably altered its composition. In consequence of the length to which it was necessary to extend the inquiry with respect to the operation of the Acts in Great Britain and Ireland, your Committee being desirous to report in the present Session, found themselves unable to receive evidence with reference to the systems prevailing in British Colonies or foreign countries. Your Committee believe that owing to the difference between English and foreign and colonial habits and social institu- tions, such an inquiry, if prosecuted, would not have tlirovvn any additional light on the questions referred to them. At an early stage of their proceedings it was thought desirable by your Com- mittee to divide the inquiry into tvi^o branches : (1st.) The hygienic effect of the Acts, especially on the health of the Army and Navy ; and (2nd.) The constitutional, moral and social, aspects of their principles and administratioij. 0.7.5- a 3 The KKPOKT ritO.M SELliCT COM-MITTEli The extent of the sul)ject iiidueed your Committee to exclude from their hygienic iiKjuiry any s|>eeial iuvestit:;atioTi into the eH'ect of the Acts on the Navy, and to diret-t tlieir attention i)rincii)ally to the Army, which affords ade- quate basis for observation and inference. Some important evidence was pre- sented as to the elfect of tlie system on the civil population. In the first branch, viz., the hygienic ([uestion, seven witnessess were called on behalf of the War Department, and four by the opponents of the Acts. Of the remaining (JO witnesses who gave evidence on the second part of the inquiry, i.e., the constitutional, moral and social aspects of the princii)lcs and administration of the Acts, 25 were called by the supporters, and 35 by the opponents of the s)'stem. The 25 Government witnesses include persons belonging to the following classes : Metropolitan police inspectors emjjloyed in administering the Acts, four ; physicians, four ; surgeon, erne ; non-])rofessional perscms (male), five ; clergrymen of the Established Church, two : Roman Catholic priests, three ; Dissenting minister, one ; superintendent of Lock Hospital, one ; police con- stables, three ; Serjeant in a Line regiment, one. Tiiose who gave evidence against the Acts may be classified under the following heads: chief constables, five : physician, one ; clergymen of the Established Church, two ; Dissenting ministers, twelve ; non-professional persons (malel, nine ; (female), six. It is, however, right to add that of these witnesses, several were called with respect to special cases arising out of the working of the Acts. Summary of the Contagious Disbases Acts, 1864 — 1860. The Contagious Diseases Acts which your Committee are dii'ected to report upon, were passed in the years 1866, 1668, and 1869. They were preceded by tlie first Contagidus Diseases .Act, which was jKissed in 1864, and repealed in 1866. 'i his Statute provided in substance that im information being laid before a justice of the peace by a superintendent or inspector of police, or a medical practitioner, showing that he had good Ciiuse to believe that a woman Wiis a common prostitute and infected with venereal disease, and that she had been within the limits of certain districts within a specified time for purposes of prostitution, the justice could order her to be taken to a certified hospital for examination. Provision was also made for voluntary submission to examina- tion on the part of women, and on tlie eertificate of the examining medical officer that the woman was diseased, it was enacted th;it a justice should issue an order for her detention in hospital for a period not exceeding three months. Tliis Act, while making no provision for the erection ol' hospitals, contained regulations lor the inspection and supervision of such hospitals as might hecome available for the purposes of the Act from any source. It did not, like sub- sequent legislation, actually enforce examination, but it imposed penalties on women who, being ordered to submit to examination, refused to do so, or quitted hospital without being duly discharged. It also imposed penalties on owners, occupiers, and managers of houses, rooms, and places within the limits of any subjected district for permitting prostitutes, who were known, or \\hom there was reasonable cause to believe to be affected with a contagious disease, to resort to such houses, &c., for purposes of prostitution. For the jmrposes of the Act of 1866, the Admiralty or Secretary of State for War, as the case may be, are empowered to provide hospitals, or places to be certified as hospitals, and to appoint the \isiting surgeons and inspectors. The expenses of the Acts are to be provided for in the Army and Navy Esti- mates. No hospital, however, can be certified under this Act, unless at the time of the granting of a certificate adequate provision is made for the moral and reU- gious instruction of the women detained therein under the Act ; and if at any subsequent time it appears that in any such hospital adequate jjrovision for that purpose is not made, the certificate is to be withdrawn. The ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. V The most important provisions of the Act, on which the sections above-men- tioned are consequential, are those which deal with the periodical medical examinations of common prostitutes, and their detention, if diseased, in a hos- pital. By Section 15, where an information on oath is laid before a justice by a Sect. 15. superintendent of police, charging, to the effect that the informant has good cause to believe that a woman therein named is a common prostitute, and either is resident within the Hmits of any place to which this Act applies, or being resident within five miles of those Umits, has, within 14 days btfore the laying of the information, been within those limits for the purpose of prostitution, the justice may, if he thinks fit, issue a notice calling on such woman to appear at a certain time and place, which notice the superintendent of police shall cause to be served on her. If the woman appears to the summons, or if no such appearance ismade, gg^^^ jg and it is proved that the notice was properly served on her, the justice on being satisfied on' oath of the truth of the infoi-mation, may order the woman to be subjected to a periodical medical examination by the visiting- surgeon for any period not exceeding one year, for the purpose of ascertaining at the time of each such examination whether she is affected with a contagious disease. This order is to specify the time and place at which the woman shall attend for the first examination. Any woman may, by a voluntary submission in writing, signed by her in gg^j^ ^^^ the presence of the superintendent, subject herself to a periodical examination for any period not exceeding one year. Tiie times and places of examination are to be fixed by the visiting surgeon, SgQt_ jg^ subject to regulations by the Admiralty or Secretary ot State for War. If on examination the woman is found diseased, she may be detained in Sect. 20. hospital, under the certificate of the visiting surgeon, until discharged by the chief medical officer. It is provided that no woman shall be detained longer than three months, Sect. 24. unless the medical officer of the hospital, and the inspector of certified hospitals, or the visiting surgeon for the place whence she came, certify that further detention for treatment is requisite ; she may then be further detained, but no detention under one certificate shall be longer than six months. Any woman who refuses to go to a certified hospital after the certificate of Sect. 25. the visiting surgeon that she is diseased, may be conveyed there by the poHce. Power is also given for a woman, who thinks herself unjustly detained, to go be- fore a justice, who may discharge her on being satisfied that she is free from disease. Any woman subjected to examination and refusing to be examined, or quitting hospital before being discharged therefrom, or disnbeying hospital regulations, is liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment with or without hard labour. No order for periodical examination shall be in force for more than a year, ^ect. 32. and if a woman is certified to be free from disease on her discharge from a hos- pital, the order ceases to operate. Any woman who desires to be relieved from examination, and who is not Sects. 33 — 35. detained in a hospital, may apply, in writing, to a justice, who shall hear the case ; and if he is satisfied that she has ceased to be a common prostitute, or if, with his approval, she enters into a recognizance for her good behaviour during three months, he may order her to be released therefrom. An owner or occupier within the limits to which this Act applies who know- Sect. 86. ingly allows a diseased prostitute to resort to his house for the purpose of pro- stitution, is liable to a penalty not exceeding 20 /., or to imprisonment for six months, with or without hard labour. '• The periodical examinations " according to present practice, take place at intervals of a fortnight. The Act of 1868 merely enacts that the term " superintendent '' shall include Act of 1868. "head constable, &c.," in Ireland. The Act of 1 869 extended locally the operation of the Acts, and provided, amongst other things : — First, that any woman attending under the provisions of the Act of 1866 for examination, and found by the visiting surgeon to be in such a condition 0.75. a 4 that vi REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE tliat lie could not projjerly examine her, should, if such surgeon had reason- able grounds fur believing her affected with a contagious disease, be liable to be detained in a ceitihed hospital until she could he properly examined, so that she sliould not be so detained for a period exceeding five days. Second, that a voluntary submission, in writing, sbould have the same effect as a magistrate's order subjecting her to examination. Third, that a woman might be detained for a period not exceeding three months, in addition to the six months allowed imder the Act of 18GG, if a certificate to the effect that her further detention for medical treatment was requisite was given at the expiration of such six months ; so, nevertheless, that no woman should he di-tained vmder one ceitificate for a longer time in the whole than nine months. The Acts apply to 13 districts in Great Britain, and 2 in Ireland, selected on account of the number of soldiers and sailors quartered in them, and the amount and virulence of venenal disease they gave proof of in periods anterior to the passing of the Acts. Great Britain. Aldershot. Plymouth and Devonport. Canterbury. Chatham, Gravesend, and Sheerness. Colchester. Dover. INlaidstone. Portsmouth. Shorncliffe. Southampton. Winchester. Windsor. Woolwich. Ireland. The Curragh. | Cork and Queenstown. Southiimplon is not treated as a subjected station in the Army Medical Re])orts. The limits of many of the above-named places, hereafter referred to as "subjected districts," include, for the purposes of the Acts, localities geographi- cally outside them. Thus, for instance, Plymouth and Devonport include amongst other places, Dartmouth. The Acts apply not merely to common prostitutes residing within the limits of the subjected districts, but also to common prostitutes, who, being resident within 10 miles of such limits, or, having no settled place of abode, have within fourteen days before the laying of the information, either been within those limits for the purpose of prostitution, or been outside of those limits for the purposes of prostitution in the company of men lesident within those limits. Report of the Royal Commission, I871. Hepoit, Hoyul Before the end of 18G9 a formidable opposition to the Acts had arisen, c ..ii.niissioii.ittTi. supported by many persons of station and intelligeiice, and among others bv several ladies, who resented tliis Ugislation as insulting to their sex, and tending to the deterioration of public morals. A motion for repeal of the Acts was brought forward in the House of Commons, and the Government recommended the issue of a Royal Commission to inquire into and report upon ilieir Administration and Operation. A Royal Commission of 2.") meml)ers, of which Mr. Massey was president, was accordingly appointed, and in sittings which occupied 45 days, Irom 14th December 18/0 to 1 3th May 1871, examined between 80 and 90 witnesses. A Report, signed by 23 members of the Commission, with certain reservations by some of its members, wa3 the result of the inquiry. The Commissioners, recalling the fact that periodical examination was only in partial operation up to May 1870, and that the returns were only made up to the end of that year, pointed out that statistical tables (formed on such return) could not be con- clusire as to the physical effect of frequent periodic.d examination. But they subsequently added, though the numerical results of the statistics must be ' inconclusive, ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. vii inconclusive, the evidence before them appeared to testify to a general impres- sion on the part of the medical officers of both services, that the Acts had operated beneficially on the health of the men. The Report stated that the Commission had come to the conclusion that although the periodical examina- tion of common prostitutes was the most effectual mode of dealing with venereal disease, it would be difficult, if not practically impossible, to make the system general, even if on other grounds it were desirable to do so ; that the restric- tion of the remedy of periodical examination to a few places, while the disease was general through the country, was a state of things that could not in their opinion be permanently maintained ; and that a modification of the Acts mio-ht be arrived at by which they might be stiipped of their anomalous and offensive character, without materially impairing their efficiency. They accordingly recommended : (1.) That the periodical examination of public women should be discon- tinued. (2.) That every common prostitute found to be diseased after an examina- tion by a medical officer upon a voluntary submission, or upon a magistrate's order, should be detained in a certified hospital until discharged by a magis- trate's order, or by the authorities of such hospital ; provided that such deten- tion should in no case exceed three months. (3.) That in order to obtain a conviction under s. 36, of the Act of 1866, it should not be necessary to prove that the owner or occupier of the house therein named had reasonable cause to believe that the prostitute resorting to his house was affected with a contagious disease. (4.) That 32 & 33 Vict. c. 96 (the Act of 1869), ss. 3, 4 and 5, be repealed. (5.) That the Secretary of State for the Home Department should be substituted for the Commissioners of the Admiralty, and the Secretary of State for the War Department in the Act of 1866, and that the police employed in carrying the Acts into force should perform their duty in uniform instead of plain clothes. (6.) That the main provisions of the repealed Act of 1864 (with an amend- ment of the provision imposing penalties for permitting women to resort to for purposes of prostitution corresponding to the amendment contained in Section 36 of the Act of 1866) should be extended to any place in the United Kingdom (except the Cities of London and Westminster), from which a request for such extension should be made, and in which proper hospital accommodation should be provided. (7.) That every keeper of a public-house harbouring prostitutes should be deprived of his license. (8.) U'hat every keeper of a common lodging-house harbouring prostitutes should be subject to the penal clauses of the Common Lodging Houses Acts. (9.) That the certificate of the Secretary of State under 19 & 20 Vict. c. 69, s. 16 (the Pohce Counties and Boroughs Act), should certify that the third section of the Vagrant Act, 5 Geo. 4, c. 83, and the section of the Towns Police Clauses Act, 10 & 11 Vict. c. 89, relating to common prosti- tutes and night M-alkers have been duly observed. (10.) That 24 & 25 Vict. c. 100 (the Act to consolidate and amend the Statute Law relating to Offences against the Person), ss. 51 and 52, should be amended by making them applicable in cases where the girl was under 14 years of age. (11.) That girls under the age of 16 acting as common prostitutes should be sent to a home or industrial school for a period not exceeding two years, if they could not be otherwise provided for to the satisfaction of a magis- trate. (12.) That the Acts should be partially extended to the Metropolis. The Commissioners observed that the title of the Act of 1866 was not appli- cable to the amendment of the law as proposed by them, as they did not propose special legislation for purposes of protecting from the consequence of vicious U.75. b indulgence VJii llEl'OnT IIIOM SELECT COMMITTEE iudul-rcnce any class of Her Majesty's servants, but thought that, for the public iiooil "particular districts, from anv cause peculiarly liable to contagious disease, ihouid be subject, to special sanitary regulations. They therefore a|)proved of the establishment of hos|atal9 at the public charge, and of police regulations enforced under central aulboritv Avithin such districts. Altlunigh the Report was signed by all the members of the Royal Commission who attended the proceedings, seven of them appended a dissent to certain portions of it, especially to the recom- mendations tliat the periodical examinations should be given up, and the Act of 18G4 practically re-enacted. After pointing out tlie diminutionof disease effected by the Act of 1806, the seven dissentients state:— "Wc now proceed to recapitulate the good moral effects which these calumniated Acts have jiroduced, and which, in our opinion, far outweigh any moral objections which have been, or can be, alleged against them. " {a.) Religious and moral influence has been brought to bear upon large numbers of women, a great portion of whom had been from infancy familiar only with scenes of debauchery and vice. ' {b.) Towns and camps have been cleared, or nearly so, of the miserable creatures who were formerly to be found in their streets and thoroughfares. " (c.) A considerable number of abandoned women have been re- claimed and restored to respectable life, and in many instances married. " {(i.) The number of town women have been greatly reduced, and those wlio remain have been rendered more decent and decorous in appearance and conduct. " (c.) Tlic i)ractice of clandestine prostitution, which too often degenerate into professional vice, has been materially checked by fear of the consequences of such indulgence which are rendered probable under these Acts. " if.) The sad spectacle of juvenile prostitutes of tender age, so rife in such localities heretofore, has been greatly diminished, in some instances almost removed. " {ff.) The temptations by which young men of all classes have been hitlierto assailed, have been, to a great extent, taken out of their way, and morality lias thus been promoted. " Such are some of the good effects, irrespective of the diminution of disease, wiiicli wc are led to believe by the evidence before us have been obtained by these Acts, and probably many of those who conscientiously disapprove of these Acts have been unaware of tlie results brought to light by this inquiry." Another dissent was signed by six Members of the Commission, who objected to the revival of the comimlsory powers of surgical examination, and committal to hospital, contained in the Act of 18G4. They further state as follows : — " The compulsory surgical examination of all common prostitutes suspected of being diseased, is not free from the objections which are recognised iu ihe report as valid against the periodical examination of all common prostitutes, whether diseased or not, and it is attended l^y an additional difficulty whieh does not affect the latter examinatiim, viz. : That the indications of the existence of these contagious diseases are not within the cognizance of the police or of the pubUc, but must be sought from the testimony of accomplices or accessories, a source of information both objectionable and untrustworthy. " Tlie objections we entertain against the modes that have been tried for compulsory admission to the hospital need not interfere with the duty of the State to support those hospitals with the view of diminishing disease in garrison districts and naval ports ; nor do they interfere with other recommendatiims of the Report. Lock hospitals and lock wards are voluntarily resorted to as other hospitals are, and it is certainly the real and permanent interest of persons of both sexes, who are afflicted with these diseases, to have recouise to medical treatment in hospitals during the early stages of their disorders." Four ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. ix Four of the six who signed the last-mentioned dissent, signed a further document in which they expressed their dissent from the opinion expressed in the Report, that "the most effectual mode of preventing the disease is the regular examination of women at ?hort intervals ;" and they thought that important qualifications ought to have been stated in the Report in reference to the evidence as to — (1.) The reduction of prostitutes in the protected districts; (2.) The reclamation of fallen women in such districts ; and, (3.) The diminution of disease in the Army and Navy as being facts attributable to other causes apart from the operation of the Acts. Otiier dissents were signed by single members of the Commission. Such dissents were chiefly based upon the objection of the dissenting members to revert to the system established by the Act of 1864, and in one or two cases to its extension to any part of London. FIRST BRANCH OF THE INQUIRY— HYGIENIC. Your Committee now proceed to state the result of its first, or hygienic inquiry. The Contagious Diseases Acts were passed with two objects, the diminution of venereal disease, and the increased efficiency of the military and naval services. Your Committee have conducted their inquiry into the hygienic effect of the system with the view of learning how far these objects have been attained. Severity of Venereal Disease. Under the head of venereal diseases are included syphilis and gonorrhcea. The classification of the forms and developments of primary venereal sores has been a subject of controversy between the witnesses before your Committee. The Medical Department of the Army divides it, only, however, for certain statistical purposes, into primary venereal sores, and secondary syphilis. Some primary sores are merely local, others affect the constitution, and their more immediate results, which vary, are called secondary symptoms. Some of the evidence laid before the Royal Commission of 18/1 and your Committee was directed to prove that syphilis had lost much of its virulence, and was no longer so great a physicid evil as in the past. But the testimony to its severity, and ^^ jgyg . ^^„ ig^g. to the injuries inflicted by it on the person who contracts it by contract, and iS82, 2023 et seq. ^ on his or her innocent descendants, was irresistible. Your Committee are of £7^1881 : Lane 2358, opinion that however increased medical skill and improved sanitary conditions 2783eisey.; Macna- .may have mitigated its results, or prepared the human frame to withstand it, 6449,6455 «/««?!', it has lost little of its virulence when prompt and adequate measures for its |*®^- „„ , T T • -ii 11 1 • r 1 1 T 1 1- 11 Ev. 1882: Lowndes treatment are not taken. It is still, when local, a pamiul and disabling malady ; i2i83ci«ej., 12258 et and, in its constitutional form, the cause not only of the numerous diseases and *^*' deaths generally attributed to it, but, in the opinion of eminent and experienced physicians, of much sickness and premature mortality, ordinarily set down to other sources, not only in those who contract it, but in their innocent oifspring. The Report of the Royal Commission cites opinions as to the formidable Ev. i879:L2wsongo5; character of syphilis given by Sir James Paget, Sir William .Tenner, and Mr. 2279TA ^^* ^' ''"'^ ' Prescott Hewett, which sustain the inference drawn by your Committee from Ev. issi : Lane 2386; the evidence laid before them on the subject. Sir James Paget said, before M=":n^™"''6452ei!.«ej. a Committee of the House of Lords, "We now know that certain diseases of the lungs, liver, and spleen, are all of syphilitic origin, and the mortality from syphilis in its later forms is every year found to be larger and larger by its being found to be the source of a number of diseases which previously were referred to other origins, or to accidents, or which were put down under various heads that they did not belong to. Sir William Jenner dwelt on the transmission of syphilis to the offspring of a diseased parent. Mr. Prescott Hewett, when asked whether the evil existed to such a degree as to require, if possible, legislative remedy, answered, «' Certainly, if possible. I do not know any disease that is more terrible to my mind than this." Gonorrhoea is not followed by the fatal consequences which result from constitutional syphilis. It causes, in many instances, an amount of local inflammation which interferes seriously for the time with the physical efficiency of the patient, and, in no inconsiderable number of cases, it leads to seqnelce, often of a serious character. 0.75. c x report i-rom select committee Comparisons of Stations and Periods instituted for the Purposes OF THE Inquiry. For the purjioses of the inquiry compaiisoiis wire instituted — (rt.) Between 14 suhjected districts (Southampton being left out), iuid all iinsul)jected stations. (i.) Betwern the same 14 subjected districts and 14 uiisubjocted stations namely : Isle of Wiglit. Slietheld. Limeri(-k, London. Miinchester. DubUn. Warley. Preston. Athlone. Hounslow. Edinburgh. Belfast. Pembroke Dock. Permoy. Effect of Lord Cardwell's Ord ER. Ev. )879; Biuir59 ct A disturbing element, which it will appear considerably affected tlie statistics, teg.; La«:.on 817 et ^.^^^^^ 5,^^^ f^j.^^^ jj^ jg-g^ j^ October of that year an order known as Lord Ev.i 891 :Lawson 1304 CardwcU's Order, vas issued, which had the effect of stopping the pay of men ""'■ under treatment for primary sypliilis and gonorrhoea. This led, in all military stations, to consider;il'le concealment of both these forms of disease, to an appa- rent, but unreal diminution of their prevalence, and to an ajiparent and real increiise of secondarj' syphilis, the result of concealed and nej^lected [irimary sores. This Order ceased to operate late in 1879. As the Acts had got into full working order by the beginning of 1870, and continued effective till 1873, when the consequences of Lord Card well's Order began to interfere with their operation, tbe statistics of the period from 1870 to 1873 atlord the most satisfactory basis for estimating the value of the system. Presumption in Favour of Acts Diminishing Disease. Your Committee would premise that jt'i^na facie, and in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, it might fairly be presumed that a measure which has the effect of secluding while in a diseased condition a class of persons admittedly instrumental in propagating a contagious disease, must tend in some degree to diminish the disease. The evidence taken before your Committee fully bears out this presumption. Fluctuations of Syphilis- liv. 1879; Lattson438 S)T)hilis, like Certain other maladies, fluctuates under the operation of causes Ev!*'"i88i: Lawson not vct brought Completely -witliin the range of science. Its intensity will in- jiasMm; Macnamara crcasc for ouc period, and diminish for the next, without any palpable reason. This circumstance must be borne in mind in estimating the eflFect of the Acts. A reduction of syphilis in a given ])eriod in a subjected district may be to some extent the result of such a fluctuation, and to guard against any error from this source, it is necessary to contrast the condition of unsubjected stations before with their condition at periods after the passing of the Acts. The contrast will show what may be sujiposed to be due to fluctuation and to other causes out- side the Acts. The next ste]) is to contrast the conditions of subjected districts for the same periods. Finally, if, on comparing the changes of condition which have taken jjlace in unsubjected districts where natural fluctuations and ordinary causes have been at work and not impeded, with the changes of condition in subjected districts where, in addition to such fluctuation and causes, the Acts have been in operation, it is found that there is a marked difierence between the directions or amounts of change, the difference is, in the opinion of your Committee, to be set down to the influence of ;he Acts. Details of Plan of Comparisons of Stations and Periods instituted for the Purposes of the Inquiry. In the course of the inquiry a comparison was instituted of the changes of condition as to the thiee kinds of venereal disease between the period anterior to the operation of the system, and the period immediately following its introduc- tion in the 14 subjected districts. Subsequently, a similar comparison was instituted ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. xi instituted in the case of all the stations which have never come under the Acts, called, for the sake of brevity, " the non-subjected stations or districts." A two- fold comparison, of periods of equal length, was instituted. The first contrasted the period from 1861 to 1866, inclusive, with the period from 1867 to 1872, inclusive. The former of these periods covers a time when the Acts of 1866 and 1869 were not in force, the latter a time during the earlier part of which, though not completely applied, they were being actively brought into operation, and during the latter part of which, from 1870 to 1872, they were, as we have seen, in full working order. The second comparison contrasted the period between 1860 and 1863, the period immediately preceding the introduction of the system by the Act of 1864, with the period between 18/0 and 1873, the period of their full operation. Your Committee also took evidence contrasting the 14 subjected with all the unsubjected stations from 1873 to 1878. The statistics of 1878 are the latest which your Committee iias been in a position to deal with for the purposes of their Report. Comparison as to Primary Venereal Sores between 14 Subjected AND ALL Unsubjected Stations, 1861-67, 1867-72, 1860-63, 1870-73. At all unsubjected stations the annual rate per thousand of admissions ev.issi :Lawsoni268 from 1861 to 1866 was lOS'O ; from 1867 to 1872, 93-6. This shows a fall of fagfeii^* ''*'*'' 9-4, equivalent to 9 per cent, of the former ratio. In the subjected districts the App. Tab!*!, ratio per thousand from 1861 to 1866 was 1097, and from 1867 to 1872, 65-4. This shows a fall of 44*3, equivalent to 40 per cent, of the former ratio. The reduction of 9 per cent, in the unsubjected stations, being the result of natural fluctuations and ordinary causes, and thus indicating a general abatement of the disease through the community, an equal reduction must be assumed to have been effected by the same causes in the subjected districts. It must, there- fore, be deducted from the total diminution found in the latter, and the differ- ence, namely, 31, is, in the opinion of your Committee, attributable to the appli- cation of the Acts. The ratio of primary sores in unsubjected stations from 1860 to 1863 was 116'3; from 1870 to 1873, 86*0, showing a reduction of 26 per cent, on the ev. issi; former ratio. The ratio in the 14 subjected stations for the period from ^pp-'^^''-'- 1860 to 1863 was 129-8; for the period from 1870 to 1873, 52-5, showing a reduction of 60 per cent. Deducting from this the reduction of 26 per cent, in the unprotected stations, there remains a reduction of 34 per cent, due to the influence of the Acts when they had been brougiit into full operation, and before the disturbing influence of Lord Cardwell's Order was felt. An examination of the figures brought forward for the purposes of these comparisons, showed that in some instances between 1866 and 1877, the ratio of admission for primary venereal sores was higher in some subjected districts than in certain unsubjected stations. But on comparing the condition of the district and stations in question before the Acts witli their condition when ev. issi : Lawson the Acts were in operation, it was found that in far the larger number of i4i9> e« «ey. i364, cases, the reduction at the subjected stations was much greater than the App. Tab. i. reduction at the unsubjected ones. This circumstance pointed clearly to the effectiveness of the Acts in diminishing the disease. The mean per-centage of reduction in admissions for primary sores between the two periods, 1861-66 and 1870-73, when the Acts were in full operation in the 14 unsubjected stations was 5; in the 14 suspected stations it was 52, showing an excess of reduction in the suspected district of 47 per cent. Considerations as to the Fluctuations of Primary Venereal Sores, from 1860 to 1878. It was argued that as for some time previous to the operation of the system, the amount of primary disease had been diminishing in the subjected districts, the reduction subsequently occurring was attributable to a continuance of the causes which had sufficed to produce the former diminution, and that it would have equally taken place if the Acts had not been in force. The re- duction previous to the Acts was attributed to the means used to improve the Nevins 2971,3078. moral condition of the soldier, to occupy his leisure, and to promote clean 0.75. c 2 habits. xil UEPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE habits. Now, as these influences were at work at unsubjected as well as subjected districts, it would be natural to expect that in the period before the Ev. 18SI : LaiTson Acts they wouUl havc wrought a reduction in the unsubjected, similar to lahets.q. that which they effected in the subjected districts. A great, tliongh iiTe;j,iilav, fall did take place in all the unsubjected stations between 1860 and 1866, and in 1866 both classes stood at nearly the same point as to the amount of primary venereal sores, the r.ite in the subsequently protected districts being- then a shade higher ; but if the theory attributing to moral causes and increased clcanhness, the continued reduction subsequent to the Acts in the subjected stations were well founded, the unsubjected stations being under the Ev. 1S8I : La«,nn Same influences ought to show in the period subsequent, to the Acts a reduc- '32S' tion corresponding to that which they experienced in the former period, and therefore similar to, though not identical with, the reduction which later years disclosed in the subjected districts. But this did not occur; the un- subjected districts showed a sudden increase in 1867, and a further con- siderable increase in 1869. They then fell, rose, fell again, and rose again, maintaining through all these vicissitudes a much higher rate of disease than tlie subjected districts, and deviating enormously from the course of diminution which, if the theory of general improvement were true, they should have followed. Meantime, the subjected stations have shown, with some irre- gularities a gradual and considerable diminution. Starting in 1866, with a rate shghtly higher than the itnsubjected districts, they experienced, in 1867, a slight increase, trifling in comparison with that exhibited by the unsubjected. The Act of 1866 now began to be effective; in 1869, while the unsubjected dis- tricts were still rising, the subjected districts fell very considerably. They subsequently experienced variations similar in kind, but very dissimilar in degree to those experienced in the unsubjected districts. The similarity in kind shows that both classes of districts were influenced by the causes which produce general fluctuations, and by Lord Cardwell's Order ; the dis- similarity in degree, and the lower level maintained in the subjected districts since 1866 prove that it is to the influence of the Acts, and not to a general tendency to diminution, that the improvement in the subjected districts is Ev. 1881 : 13S7 e^OTy. mainly due. These considerations were brought clearly before your Com- Diayram faciiij p. 446. jj^j^j-gg j^ a Valuable Statistical diagram, the accuracy of which was admitted, Nevins 2988. which contrasted the theoretical line of improvement, and the lines followed by the subjected and unsubjected districts respectively, from 1860 to 1878. To this diagram, constructed by Mr. Robert Lawson, Inspector General Army Medical Department, your Committee desire to direct particular attention. Comparison as to Secondary Syphilis between 14 Subjected and ALL Unsubjected Stations, 1861-67, 1867-/2, 1860-63, 1870-73. i532'e<^«y.^'"'"'" Ii the unsubjccted stations the ratio per thousand from 1861 to 1866 was App. 3, Tab. 6. B. 307; fi'ora 1867 to 187, 29-2, showing a reduction of .5 per cent. In the subjected stations the ratio from 1861 to 1866 was 37'4, and from 186/ to 1872, 24'6, showing a reduction of 34 per cent. If 5 per cent., the reduction arising I'rom fluctuation and ordinary causes be deducted, the balance, 29 per cent., will represent the reduction efl'ected by the Acts. 1032 rf. .w^.riaee. Turning to the periods between 1860 and 1863, and between 1870 and 1873, App. 3, Tab. 6. a the ratio per thousand of admissions for secondary syphilis in unsubjected stations was, in the former period, 30*5 ; in the latter, 27'5; showing are'duction of 10 per cent. In the subjected stricts the corresponding ratios were 40 and 20"3 per thousand, a diminution of 49 per cent., from which, if the natural reduction of 10 per cent, in the unsubjected districts be subtracted, (here remains, as the result of the operation of the Acts, diminution of 39 per - cent. Importation of Syphilis from Subjected to Unsubjected Stations, and vice versa. ^1\!uI\^b1^i-6o, As secondary syphilis makes its appearance, in a large number of cases, 1921 ; Mje'rs 3059. at a Considerable interval, occasionally as long as twelve months, from the i486e/!4.. n75c/ appearance and cvcu from the cure of the primary sore, it is obvious that the «j.,2223rt.«e9. amount of secondary syphilis appearing at a given spot does not necessarily represent, but may either exceed or fall short of, the amount of secondary syphilis caused by intercourse at the spot. Men contract primary syphiUs at a subjected ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. XlU subjected station ; they are removed to an unsubjected place ; secondary- syphilis presents itself in their new quarters and is so charge' . in the returns. The converse process also occurs. Men contract primary syp] ills in an unsub- jected district, and secondaries develop themselves after renioval to a station under the Acts. It is, therefore, obvious that the returns do not disclose the amount of secondary syphilis really chargeable to any particular locality. It is impossible to determine accurately the number of cases of the constitutional phase of disease for "which particular localities are responsible. There is, however, a consideration which will enable an estimate to be formed of the relative quantity of secondary syphilis imported from subjected to unsiibjected districts, and vice versa. Secondary syphilis bears certain numerical proportions, varying at different times, to primary syphilis. From 1861 to 18/2, in all stations, sub- Ev. issi : r.awsoB jectedand unsubjected, there were about three primary cases to one secondary i572e;onorrha!a in the subjected districts attributable to the Acts in the same period is less considerable but substantial. Opinion of Medical Profession. In connection with this part of the subject, your Committee cannot overlook the very general opinion of the medical profession, both in and outside of the subjected districts, who on hygienic grounds strongly advocate the maintenance of the Acts. Your Committee are of opinion that the Acts have successfully served tiie two objects to which they were directed — the diminution of vem-real disease, and the increased efficiency of the army. It is to bo remembered that the Acts have had in reality but an inadequate trial. In the eailier years, from 1806 to 1869, they were not in full efiiciency. The three following years were not a suffi- ciently long period to develop their full influence, and their utility thenceforward has been diminished, up to 1 879, by the action of Lord dirdwell's order. The benefit conferred since 1866 is great, but it is only an earnest of what the Acts may be expected to do hereafter for the health and efficiency of the army. SECOND BRANCH OF INQUIRY-CONSTITUTIONAL, MORAL, AND SOCIAL Your Comnjittee now proceed to deal with the second branch df their inquiry namely, the operation of the Acts as regarded in their constitutional, moral, and social aspects, a subject involving considerations of great delicacy and difficulty. OBJECTIONS (ON OTHER THAN HYGIENIC GROUNDS^ TO THE ACTS. The main objections raised against the Acts from these points of view may be stated as follows : — I. That they involve the recognition and regulation of vice by the State, and are therefore an outrage upon public morality. II. That they violate the first principles of constitutional law, HI. That, in practice, they tend to increase sexual vice, by creating an impression on the minds both of soldiers and civilians that it may be indulged with impunity. IV. That they subject women to restraints and. penalties from which men are free. V. That under them virtuous and respectable women at the instance, and even on the mere caprice of the police, may be, and, as a matter of fact, are, brought before a magistrate, classed as prostitutes, and subjected to a painful and degrading examination. VI. That they have increased what is called " clandestine prostitu- tion." It will be convenient to discuss each of these objections under a separate head. The two first objections to the Acts are objections of principle. The opponents urge that, whether hygienically successful or not, and whether well or ill ad- ministered, they violate principles of paramount moral and constitutional value. fL}^^V„^!*'^^'^c^ This argument has been pressed to such an extent, that a few witnesses have not 4867 : uiUett 5046. ~, ,, ,i pi,ia. i Ir hesitated to declare that tlie more successful the Acts may have proved from a sanitary point of view, the more objectionable they are from a moral point of view. ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES 4.CTS. Obj. 1. — That the Acts involve in theory the Recognition and Encouragement of Vice by the State. It is said that they regulate prostitution, and offer it in return for obedience to the regulations oif the State, a definite toleration. Your Committee have afforded the exponents of this view ample opportunity of explaining their opinions, and have endeavoured to learn the position which, in their judgment, the State, apart from tliese Acts, does maintain, and also the position "which, according to them, the State ought to maintain in reference to the social evil! It is not denied that the State permits prostitution to exist. The prostitute is punishable if she carries on her tiade in such a manner as to outrage public decency, or violate certain laws and regulations not directed against the hahit of prostitution, pure and simple, but against the habit, under certain aggravating circumstHUces of disorder. Simple prostitution is at present, not coanived at, but openly tolerated. Women known to be engaged in it are permitted to appear .n public, noioriously with a view to plying their trade, provided they abstain from solicitation and indecent and disorderly conduct. If there beany law prohibitory of prostitution, pure and simple, it is a dead letter. As to the position which the State ought to take up, it has not been seriously argued that the total suppression of prostitution by the State is practically possible. Now it appears^ to your Committee that if the State tolerates this evil, it is under a certain obligation to mitigate, as far as possible, the grave injuries resuhing from it. Further, if it is admitted that the State cannot suppress the evil, it is difficult to see how those who make this admission, and thus absolve the State from the obhgation of suppression, can consistently deny the State the right to take eflective measures for the purpose of minimising the injurious results of the evil. The Acts do not give prostitution more toleration than it enjoyed before their existence, or than it now enjoys, where they are not in force. It is not the Acts, but the administration of the ordinary law that gives it toleration. All the Acts have done is to insist that the toleration permkted by the institutions of the country shall be exercised with less detriment to public health. It is alleged that the Acts involve in principle the encouragement of vice by offering safety to its indulgence. -It has not, however, been seriously argued that the Acts were passed with this object. In a subsequent paragraph your Com- mittee give their reasons for the belief that they have not, as a matter of fact, done so. If, then, it is admitted that their object was not to encourage vice, and if your Committee are right in the belief that as a matter of fact they do not operate in that direction, it seems to your Committee unreasonable to charge them with a violation oi' moral principle which was not intended in framing the system, nor produced in the course of its administration. The argument founded on the alleged encouragement of vice by the Acts is, in principle, available against any State institution or system devised to cure disease in the known prostitute, because such institution or system must dimii«sh the chance of the infliction of disease on men who consort with her after her cure. If the State encourages vice by insisting on submission to examination and treatment, and by thus inducing men to believe they can sin with impunity, it would also encourage vice by offering the prostitute special facilities for cure, and inducements to avail herself of them. Some opponents of the Acts, conscious of the force of this view, object to the endowment of Lock hospitals by the State. They are however, willing that the disease should be treated in general hospitals side by side with other diseases. It is obvious that if the argument against enforced examina- tion and cure, founded on the impunity it offers to sin, be vahd, it is in principle available against any aid being given by the State for the treatment of un- reclaimed prostitutes in common hospitals, as well as for the erection of separate hospitals, and not only against the grant of such aid by the State, but against its grant from the rates and from private individuals. Your Committee are of opinion that the objection to the system on the ground of the alleged encouragement or facilities given to vice involves fundamentally the opinion, which however the opponents of the Acts strenuously reject, that prostitutes who have no intention of leaving their calling should not be provided with the means of cure, lest their freedom from disease should encourage men to associate with them. It has been usual for the opponents of the system to assume that the Acts are analogous to certain continental methods of dealing with prostitution, •J-75- d 2 which XX RKl'ORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE which avuwedly offer faciliiies for vice. It seems to your Committee that the Ev. itisi : Wilkinson contrast hetveeii the Acts and the notoinous features of certain continental 5o64'-^RMd6303- systcms affords strong proof that the ibrmer violate no la-inciple of morality. jucnliiiara 6489 17 Tlic EngHsh statiitcs niakc an attempt at reclamaiion by moral and religious "'''• agencies an essential part of every attempt to clieck the evils of prostitution. The foreign systems tend to confine public women in brothels, where every good influence is avowedly exchuli d. The insistence on religious and moral influences make the system in priiuiple an ally and not an enemy of religion and morahty. Wlietlier they practically work in this direction is a question of fact hereiifter to be considered. But your Committee are of opinion that so far as the objection of principle is concei-ned, it is not well Ibunded. Obj. 2. — That the Acts violate (.Constitutional Principles. It is also alleged tliat the Acts violate constitutional rights by the authority they confer over the person of the prostitute. Your Committee have found nothing in the arguments brought forward in support of this view which is not in principle equally cogent against other enactments which have been passed for the purpose of diminishing disease in the community byinsisting on its pre- vention or cure in the individual. Ihe State insists on vaccination, and on the isolation and treatment of persons suffi ring from certain infectious diseases. In doing so, the State assumes a certain authority over the person of the individual ibr the preservation of the general health. It follows precisely the i^ame jmnciple in asserting its right to prevent the spread of venereal disease. It is said that the means used by the State for this object, namely, the com- pulsory examination of the prostitute, makes the interference of the State unconstitutional. Your Committee reject this view. The prostitute, of her own free will, makes her person a source of danger, not only to the men who consort with her, but to innocent persons. She cannot justly complain if she is compelled to submit to examination and treatment which her own deliberate act has rendered necessary for the good of the community. If it were found, as a matter of fact, that her examination and treatment had the effect of con- firming her in evil, it might well be argued that the State had no right to lessen the chances of moral reclamation for the pm-pose of prev enting physical injury. Y'our Committee, in subsequent paragraphs, give reasons for their belief that no such effect is produced by the system, and they are of opinion Ev. 1881 : Macnamara that the authority assumed by the State is not unconstitutional. Tlie prostitute, 1232 "^^ *"^ ' ^" ^° order to prevent the spread of a dangerous disease, is compelled to submit Ev. 1882: Hegarty to mcasurcs which are not in themselves indecent, and which virtuous women 'nZni'msHer^co • often vmdergo voluntarily. The examination is not in itself, and apart from 11402 tY.w/. ' the causes which necessitate it, a dishonour, and the compidsion to which tlie prostitute has to submit, is the result of her own misconduct. Obj. 3. — That the Acts, in practici!:, increase Vice by making it safe. Kv. 1881 ; Krause As to the obiection that these Acts bv makine; vice safe practically operate .,j^. SO as to increase immorality, your Comimttee from the very nature ot the Ev. 1882: 4489 e« question feel that it is one with which it is difficult to deal. It is not easy to *'^' diagnose the various motives which impel or restrain different men to or from vicious sexual indulgence, and it is probable that these motives vary considerably according to the age, disposition, and circumstances of each individual. But the evidence whicli your Committee have received on the subject, as well as the inherent probabilities of the case, lead to the conclusion thai, as a rule, men who indulge in irregular sexual intercourse, especiallv the younger and more reckless among them, gratify their vicious passions without the slightest regard to any sanitary consequence, and that the fear of disease is absolutely no « clieck upon the gratification of what is often nothing more than a strong animal instinct. Your Committee therefore think that in this respect too the opponents of the Acts have failed to make out their case. It f^k^'s^^^^i'^i^^l^ieZ'^^i'^ ^^ worthy of observation that this objection, founded as it is on .seq. ; Macnamara 6575. the supiioscd tcudencv of the Acts to sccurc iiiimunitv from disease, Ev. 1882 : Miller 9669 f/ «f(J.; Curtis 11242 . j i, .i -u i i *i .. i.i " 1 f etacn. ^^ Urged by tne very persons who contend that they ha\ e, from a sanitary point of view, proved a complete failure. ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. xxi Obj. 4. — That the Acts affect unfairly the Female Sex. The fourth objection may be quickly disposed of. The Acts are directed not Ev. issu shaeu against women, but against prostitutes, i.e., againsta class who, as stated in ^373ct«c(?, the Report of the Royal Commission (paragraph 60), " commit the sin of forni- cation as a matter of gain," and it may be added, in the deliberate exercise of their calling, and who are specially liable to contract and propagate disease in the exercise of that calling. Among the male part of the population no corre- sponding class exists, and it is difficidt to see to what men such legislation could be applied. To extend it to tlie whole male population of the country or of any particular district would be almost as absurd as to extend it to the whole female population, while the medical examination of soldiers, if thought desirable from a sanitary point of view, might be, and in certain cases is, carried out as a matter of military regulation without the need for any actual legislation. ^^- '^^i = Lawson It may be observed, in passing, that since the cancelling of Lord Cardwell's commis^oD m^ Order, already referred to, there is not the same inducement to soldiers to con- p- ^''• ceal venereal disease of any kind. Obj. 5. — That Virtuous Women may be and are brought under this Operation. The fifth objection to the Act is of the gravest kind, and if it could be sus- tained would be, in the opinion of your Committee, fatal to their maintenance. They have, therefore, thought it their duty to spare no labour in probing it to the utmost. Ikfoi-e proceeding further with this branch of the inquiry, your Committee would call special attention to the fact that in the course of 16 years not a single case has been brought before your Committee in which any woman alleged to have been wrongfully brought under the operation of the Acts has brought an action or taken legal proceedings against the police authorities in respect of any act done by them under the Contagious Diseases Acts. Considering the large funds at the disposal of the various associations for the repeal of the Acts — ^*'- ■^'^^ = ^''••'«" the zeal and activity with vvhicli their operations have been carried on, and et. ^18*82 : Bunting the opportunities for the exposure of the alleged vices of the system, which ^sTSe/sey. such proceedings, even if unsuccessful, would afford, your Committee cannot but regard this fact as a significant testimony to the conduct of the police. The explanation given by Mr. Shaen in his evidence, that under the 42nd section of the Act of 1 866, the defendant to such an action " might plead generally that the act complained of was done in pursuance or execution, Ev. issi; shaen or intended pursuance or execution of the Acts, and give the Act and the special ^*'°' "^^ ^'"'*' matter in evidence at any trial to be had thereupon," seems to your Committee singularly insufficient. It must be obvious to most persons acquainted with legal procedure that such a plea would in no way protect any person acting under the Acts from the consequences of such misconduct as has been imputed to the police. Various cases, including the case of Caroline Wybrow, have, however, been ev. issi: shaen brought before your Committee in which it was alleged that an attempt had (>so9etseq.; 6843 been made by the police charged with the administration of the Acts impro- Imi'et seq. -/^ ^'"^" perly to bring women under their operation. Many of these cases were 6964 ej s^y. 7038 ; defended by the agents of the societies for the repeal of the Act, and in some ev.'']88'2: wheeier cases such defences were successful. Considering, however, the number of t^si etxeq. -, 193a et years during which the Acts have been in operation, j^our Committee cannot Ev. issi': B.-irr but think that, especially of late years, these cases have been verv rare, while i? ^l\,o„ ,„ i, the evidence by which it has been sought to substantiate them, has been any- 9034 e/se?.; Anniss thing but satisfactory. ' 1 oeos <;*..?.; 1 0091 In all these cases, except the Dover case, hereafter referred to, the evidence brought forward to inculpate the police was purely hearsay evidence, or did not admit of being tested by cross-examination, and was therefore open to aU the objections whicli apply to such evidence. Great stress was laid on the case of Caroline Wybrow, which occurred in the beginning of 18/5. In this instance ev. i882; wi,ecier a careful consideration of the entire case has led your Committee to the con- iss-* e( se-?. ; jaiJine elusion that although certain irregularities were proved to have occurred, neither \vm 100%' etseq. the medical authorities nor the pohce are open to serious censure. Your App. Nos. .-) andc. Committee feel bound to observe that the complaints made by the girl herself 0.75. d 3 of REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Ev. 1881 : Krause 851 8. Ev. 1682 : AnoiM 10672 etseq.; 10692 el seq. ; Rimboult 3312 e/ seq.; Wreforl 2(J1. Lynn 459. 610; Cosstr 1 047 el seg. ; Brutton 745 ; Kingston 2646 et seq. Ev. 1881 ; Tuffield 4316, 4344. 4593 et aeq. ; Stigant 6529-30; Pittock 6027 et neq. Ev. 1882 : Luscombc 10240 el aeq, ; O'Reilly 11379 et teq. Ev. (1882)6279 et aeq. ; 8507 et aeq. ; 9212 ct teq. Ev. 1881 : Shaen 7271 el teq. ; Krause 8224; 8513 et seq. ; Ey. 1882: Wrefortl 282; Rimbault3217 el aeq. ; 3370 ei seq. ; Kingston 2554. of her treatment were not made for several months after the occurrence to whic-h the\ related, and that her most important statements were directly contradicted by reliable witnesses. On the whole, therefore, your Committee are not satisfied that in a single case the action of the police lias been marked by the carelessness and misconduct somewhat recklessly attributed to them. Even where the summonses have been dismissed by the niai^nstrates thi- cases appear to have warranted reasonable susjiicion, or to have been surrounded by doubt, the benefit of which was naturally given to the women summoned. On the otlier hand, many of the most strenuous oppout nt.< of the system have te.'^tified to the great care and discretion with which the jjolice h;ive acteii. In a recent case, however, alluded to ;is the Dover case, which was dismissed by the borougli justices without hearing the defence, the charges brouuht against the police (wlio it is only fair to state, were not professionally represented before the magistrates) were so izrave and specific that your Committee felt it to be their duty to sift the case t.'ioroughly, not with a view of reviewing or contesting the decision of the justices, but in order lo see whether the police acted with reasonable discretion, l-'or this purpose they adopted the only course by which such an investigation could be properly carried out, and callcfl before themselves, not only those witne-^ses who were examined before the magistrates, but several other witnesses who were in a position to throw light upon the case. The evidence of these witnesses (who were examined on oath) occupied more than three whole days, and will be found in the printed evidence. Your Committee think it unnecessary to make any comment on this evidence, except to say tliat they think that the conduct of the police charged with the administration of the Acts was not open to censure. In connection with this part of the subject, it should be borne in min 1 that one of the chargch brought against the Acts is, that they are administered with so much laxity that almost any prostitute who chooses can evade their operation. It is hardly necessary to point out that this objection, which will be hereafter considered, is, on the face of it, scarcely consistent with the theory, that they have introduced a system of espionage fatal to personal liberty, or even that they have been carried out with undue severity. Your Committee therefore are of opinion that the charges of misconduct brought against: the police have broken down, and they desire to record their concurrence in the opinion unanimously expressed by the Royal Commission (para. 23 of the Report) "That the police are not chargeable with any abuse of their authority, and that they have hitherto discharged a novel and difficult duty with moderation and caution." Ev. 1879: Barr 1597, 1599, 162 Ev. 1881 : Anniss 3125 et aeq.; 3507 et seq.; 3863 et seq. ; Tuffield 434 1 et seq. ; Piltock 5968, 6013 et teq. Et. 1882: App. 28. Obj. 6. — That the Acts have increased Clandestine Prostitution. It is charged that the Acts have increased clandestine prostitution in the sub- jected districts. This allegation is disproved, in the opinion of your Committee, by the evidence, not only of trustworthy officials, experienced in the condition of those places, but also by that of persons unconnected with the adminis- tratioti of the svstem who have watched closely its effect. The evidence as to Aldershot, the largest military centre, showed that when the Acts first came into operation, clandestine prostitution was common in its neighbourhood, and that since then, both in the opinion of the residents, and in that of the experienced physician in charge of the Lock Hospital, it has largely decreased. In Plymouth. Devonport, Woolwich, Deal, Cork, and other districts, which may be regarded as typical subjected stations, it has been proved to your Committee that a similar decrease has taken place, and a consideration of the scope of the Acts show that their general tendency is to diminish clan- destine, as well as open, prostitution. Your Committee wish to call special attention to the evidence on this subject as to Cork, one of the Irish subjected stations. A general assertion of the increase of clandestine prostitution amongst a class of girls of respectable position in that district was made by one of the witnesses, who founded his opinion on, amongst other things, the aliged admission of members of the constabulary engaged in adminis- tering the Act in Cork. It was met in the first place by denials from each of the constables so employed that he had made such an admission ; in the second place, by clear testimony that clandestine prostitution had not increased, given by clergymen intimately acquainted with the condition of, the town, and ox CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. XXIU and by the surgeon of the Lock Hospital, who had special opportunities for Ev. 1 882; Muier 9363 knowing the real state of things; and, thirdly, by the fact that illegitimate Hegt^y mitno^s' births, which are an ordinary result of extensive clandestine prostitution, had eit«e?.; Cunis 11226 become far fewer than in former times, and that attempts to procure ^ **^' abortion, an equally clear index of this form of vice, were quite exceptional. The deterrent influence of the Acts tends to restrain persons who are not committed to a life of prostitution, public or clandestine, from entering on it, and exposing themselves to the supervision of the police. Women are thus deterred, or if not deterred, rescued at an early stage (if vice from that more private kind of prostitution, which they resort to before going regularly on the streets. In this way the Acts of necessity cut ofF one great source of clan- destine prostitution. Again, the police diminish the tendency to clandestine prostitution by seeking out and warning women whom they find likely to enter such a career, and by giving information to their relatives, a subject which will be hereafter more fully considered. Of course, the desire to escape registration will lead prostitutes who consort with the richer classes of men to practice increased secrecy, in order to escape the notice of the police. There is no doubt that some women who in ihe subjected districts before the Acts would have practised prostitution openly, now endeavour, and in comparatively few cases with success, to carry on their trade in private. But your Committee are of opinion that owing to the vigilant administration of the police, this does not take place to any great extent, and that on the whole the deterrent effect of the Acts, and their judicious administration have diminished the number of clandestine, as well as public prostitutes. The contention in a former paragraph that the diminution in the num- ber of prostitutes caused by the A.cts has increased disease amongst registered women, virtually admits that the system has not had the effect of increasing clandestine prostitution to any considerable extent. If, as is alleged, clandestine prostitution grows in subjected districts as open prostitution diminishes, the increuse in the amount of disease among registered women cannot proceed from the cause to which it is sometimes ascribed, namely, the diminished number of women consorting with the soldiers. Advantages (other than Hygienic) conferred by the Acts. On the other hand, the advocates of the Acts claim for them that they have, — I. Diminished prostitution in subjected districts. II. Almost entirely suppressed juvenile prostitution. III. Rescued fallen women from the frightful stale of filth and disease in which they had previously lived, and thus placed them under conditions in which they for the first time become amenable to humanizing and reforming influences. IV. Contributed to promote public order and decency in the districts in which the)' are in force. Diminution of Prostitution in Subjected Districts. (I.) There can be no doubt that in the subjected districts the number both of prostitutes and brothels has, since the Acts, largely decreased. On this point your Committee would refer to the evidence given by the Rev. Prebendary g^ jggi . iggj^ jggg. Wilkinson, by Mr. W. Luscombe, and Inspector Anniss as to Plymouth, Devon- port, and Stonehouse; by tlie Rev. H. Reid, the Rev. T. O'Reilly, the Rev. Canon Hegarty, and Mr. Curtis as to Cork ; by the Rev. E. P. Grant as to Portsmouth ; by the Rev. T. Tuffield as to Woolwich, by Mr. Adam Stigent as to Chatham, and by Mr. Pittock as to Deal, as well as to the returns published under Captain Harris's direction. Indeed this diminution has been ev. 1882: Lynn 463; admitted by the opponents of the Acts, though they attribute it to other 7!''^*^?'' i^i 202^?" ' causes. But without pushing the argument post hoc ergo propter hoc too far, Brutton674. your Committee feel that they are justified not only by a comparison between the condition of the subjected districts before and after the Acts, but by com- parison between the present condition of these districts and that of other large towns in setting down a main portion of these good effects to the credit of the Acts. The various witnesses who have been examined on behalf of the Acts account for this diminution in three ways : 0.75. d4 (1.) By Xxiv REl'ORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE (1 ) Bv the deterrent effect of the Acts in preventing many women e^neeiallv voung girls on the border-land, as it has been called between levity ami' innnorality, from embarkin- in a career ot vice I Ins c.uestion was partially discussed in the para-rai)hs dealing with cia-ulestme prostitution, and will be further considered when the question ot the decrease of juvenile prostitution is discussed. (o) Bvthc excellent spiritual and moral influences brought to boir on the women while in hospital, and the successful efforts made by the super- intcndents and chaplains <.f these hospitals to place them m the way ot obtaining a decent and respectable livelihood after theu- dischai'ge. (3) By the intimate knowledee which the police charged with the administiation of the Acts obtain, both of the houses of ill-fame in their districts, and of the inmates of such houses, and the consequent ..pportu- nities which they have of suppressing the one, and of tracing, and, in many cases, reclaiming the other. Your Committee think that all these three agencies have been proved to be instrumental in producing the beneficial results above referred to. 1 Dimuvution of Prosfdntion by Deterrent Effect of Acts.-1\v^i X\xe Acts should exercise a deterrent effect upon women, a point strongly insisted upon by every witness called in defence of the system, seems almost selt- F.v. 1881: Annus n277c<,v.7.: Grant 5210; evident. The point was virtuallv admitted by some of the wit- stigant 5470, 6732 ;PittockC925; npcces ou the Other Side, who si-okc of prostitutes as removing EV.1S82; Brutton 680 e< .-^7. ; Rimbault nesses Oil Ulf uinci ^iin., ,'• ^ , i-' • ^ c ,u^ ,,,,...^r, -c 8184. 3359 e/OT?.; Miller 93(;8; o'ltciiiy' fj.Qm the Subjected to the uusubiected distncts tor tne ])uipost "373 et ,«•V2S3497, Ou the othcr liand, it is contended that the examination hardens the pros- 3S50o/..7.;Tuffieid ^j^^^^ .,^ ^j^^ ^^^^ shamelessiicss. The evidence given m this direction has wl:^;:Ww.«.7. been, in the opinion of your Committee, overborne in the first pl^ce by the !;r';'l.49;l.r?j; evidence of opinions to the contrary held not only by respectable ofheials pSatsecV.:;-.; connected with the administration of the Acts, but also by c ergymea and n^^Z^'ti^^ other benevolent persons who have watched the operation of the system and Ev.i882tBax;nnstration of them to su2)press Brothels, and to trace and reclaim Wojnen found in them. — Yom- Committee cannot lay sufficient stress on the mean* which these Acts afford the police charged with their administration for tracking out ev. 1881 : stigant the keepers of brothels, and for following and rescuing the unhappy women who have been enticed into them, and who, there is too much reason to heheve, are often detained in them against their will. Such a practice (which Mr. LowTides, a surgeon of lar^e experience of Liverpool, believes to be very ev i882: Lowndes common) could hardly be carried on in the subjected districts, where the EY^°VgfflnDUs3%9 police know every brothel and inmate of a brothel in the place. The result is etseq. that to smuggle a\ia)' girls into houses of ill-fame, and immure them there against their will, becomes practically impossib'e. Indeed, it is a very general practice in these districts for the parents of girls who have been decoyed, or have run away from home, to apply to the police charged with administering ev. issi : Anmss the Acts for information respecting their missing dau i^^s e^ «e«., and great decrease in the number of juvenile prostitutes in the subjected 1 lis- ev. 1881 : Anniss tricts. This evidence is borne out by the testimony of persons well acquainted soil'^/^-f'ssso, with the condition of many of those places. As juvenile prostitution is the (,'< se?. ; Taffiew 4335 principal source bv which the supply of fallen women is kept up, it is evident \^^Q'etseq., sotT; that the Acts, in diminishing the number of youthful prostitutes, are operating Grant 5214 etsej.j effectually to diminish the number of adult women abandoned to an evil life. 04^3° Miiiei'9247 Many cases were detailed to your Committee in which young girls who were gl.^n^'jjggg^^/'/'^^'' either on the point of falling, or had already fallen, were rescued by the inter- 1013b; Lu'scombe' vention of the metropoliian pohce, and restored to their families. But cases l?^,'"'; ^^''°*nnj«ii.- ir tr ' .1, 1 . I'll \\02 et seq. ; O isevdi of this kind are few in comparison with the numerous class m wnicn the 11359. deterrent influence of the Acts frightens young girls from vice. It is to be remarked that while a constant decrease in juvenile prostitution has gone on in the subjected districts, the Committee of the House of Lords appointed to consider the subject and other kindred topics in 188!, states in its Report, dated 10 July 1882, that " juvenile prostitution, from an almost incredible early age, exists to an appalling extent in England generally, and especially in London.' Their Lordships attribute its prevalence njainly to certain specified causes. Every one of these causes hae been proved to your Committee to be vigorously and effectively counteracted by the administration of the Contagious Diseases 0.75. e Acts, xxvi REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE Kv. 1870 : Barr 1G63 Acts, SO that tlic alle£!;e(l rctluction of juvenile prostitution in tlie subjected w.-ev- oistricts, is borne out iiy the fact that the influences stated by the Connuittee su3,%L\f'^^ of the House of Lords to be its principal source are deprived of mucli of their wliiinlm 4888 ./«?.; Strength, where the administration of the Acts is brought to bear against them. Sli2»nt 5.')07 et neq. ; r j j. •Re-ii 6A-2<> et seq. The causes referred to are : — , . r Ev. ift^2: Cosser437; l 'Jj^\^^^ waut of parental control. This is remedied by the information S". >J3T2e/T',.; which thc poli( 6 give parents as to the dangers of their daughters, ami by *''''\us'''lbe}o"iOe/ the authority which the police exert for the nelamation of voung girls. »'?.'; u'crrtyiooss^ 2. Hcsidcnce in brothels. As already shown, it has been proved to *'(«.*■ O'Reilly"''^ your Committee that the poHce exert their ])()\ver with excellent effect to 1 1*333 <•<*.urpose. The adoption of this course -would aHbrd an opportunity for testing the value of the opinion so freely expressed by the ojiponents of tbe Acts, that an adequate system of voluntary treatment would be efficacious from a hygienic point of -de-vv. (2.) Your Committee further recommend that additional and more absolute powers should be given to the police within subjected districts and elsewhere, to enter houses of ill-fame for the purpose of taking steps to diminish pros- titution and its attendant evils. (3.) That powers analogous to that given by Act of 2') Geo. 2, c. 36, s. 5, to householders, to institute proceedings for the prosecution of brothel keepers, should be given to the police. (4.) That it should be a misdemeanour for any person to receive into any house or into or on any premises occupied or possessed by him or of whicli he has the management or control, any girl under tbe age of 16 years for the purpose of her having unlawful sexual intercourse with any person, whether such intercourse is intended with any particular man or generally. (.').) That a police magistrate should have power, on application of a police inspector, and on his affidavit that he has reason to believe that some girl has been so received and is then in such house or premises, to grant a warrant to such inspector to search the house or premises and to bring before him any person offending as aforesaid, and also the girl, and if the magistrate shall commit any person for trial for such oifence, he may also bind over the girl to appear as a witness on such trial. 7 Aiiffust 1882. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. Thursday, 2nd March 1882. Dr. Farquharson. Viscount Crichton. Mr. O'Shaughnessy. Mr. Ernest Noel. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. MEMBERS PRESENT : ]\Ir. Cavendish Bentlnck. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Hanbury Tracy. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Sir Henry Wolff. Mr. O'Shaughnessy was called to the Chau*. The Committee deliberated. [Adjourned till Friday, 10th March, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, lOth March 1882. members present : Mr. O'Shaughnessy In the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. General Bumaby. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Hanbury Tracy. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Dr. Cameron. ' Sir Henry Wolff. Mr. Frederick Wreford and Mr. John Lynn were examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 17th March 1882. members present : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in tlie Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Major Edicard Britton and Mr. Alfred William Cosser were examined, TAdjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock 0.75. e 4 PEOCEEDINGS OF THE Tuesday, 2lst March 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair. Dr. Farquliarsou. Colonel 'I'ottenhaiu. Mr. Ernest Noel. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bcntinck. Mr. Hanbnry Tracy. Mr, Staiisfeld. iMr. Ilopwood. Mr. Fi-cderick IVheeltr was examined. [Adjoui-ned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Fridai/, 24th March 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT . Mr. O'SiiAUGHNESSY in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. General Burnaby. | Dr. Cameron. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Cavendish Bentincli Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Frederick Wheeler was further examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, 28th March 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'SnAUGHNESSY in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Burt. General Burnaby. Mr. Hopwood. Colonel Digby. ]\Ir. William Fowler. Mr. Osborne Morgan. i Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 1 Dr. Cameron. Mr. Hanbury Tracy. | Mr. Frederick Wlieeler was further examined. Reverend Hugh Ryves Baker examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. « Friday, ^\st March 1882. MEMBERS PEESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr, William Fowler. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Burt. Colonel Tottenham. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Frederick Wheeler, Mr. John B. Kingston, and Rev. Dr. Flavell Cooke were examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, 4th April 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair. Mr. Hanbury Tracy. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. The Committee deliberated. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Burt. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. "William Fowler. Sir Henry Wolffi Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Committee consider it inexpedient to go into oral evidence of the working of similar systems iii British Colonies or in other Countries, as such a course would open up too large a field of controversial evidence, and render it impossible to present their Report within the present Session — (Colonel Tottenham). — Question put. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 6. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Viscount Crichton. Mr. Osborne Morgan, Sir Henry Wolif. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Noes, 5. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr, Hopwood. Mr. Hanbury Tracy. Dr. Alexander Patterson was examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday, 18th April, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, \Sth April 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair, Dr, Farquharson, Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan, Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood, Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Hanbury Tracy. Colonel Tottenham. Mr, Stephen Francis Rimbault was examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. 0.75, PROCEEDINGS OF THE Fridai/, 2\st April 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Daniel Cooper was examineil. Mr. Stansfekl. Mr. Burt. Mr. Cavendish Bcntinck. Colonel Digby. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, 25th April 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Burt. Mr. Stansfeld. Dr. Cameron. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Daniel Cooper was further examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve^o'clock. Fridai/, 28th April 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. William Fowler. Colonel Tottenham. Sir Henry Wolff. The Keverend James Paterson Gledstone and the Eeverend Professor Caldeiwood were examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Tuesday, 2nd May 1882. MEMBERS PEESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Sir Henry WolfF. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Hopwood. Dr. Cameron. Colonel Digby. Reverend George Oshoni, d.d., Mr. George Gillett, Reverend W. Fleming Stevenson, D.D., Reverend Frederick Trestrail, d.d., Reverend Richard Chew, Reverend William Blake Lark, and the Reverend Robinson Cheeseiitan, were examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 5th May 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Burt. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mrs. Josephine Butler and the Reverend James Paterson Gledstone were examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, 9th May 1882. MEMBERS present : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Dr. Cameron. Mr. William Ferguson and the Reverend Charles Dewick Ward, p.d., were examined, [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, \2th May 1882. members present ; Mr. Osborne Morgan. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. In the absence of the Chairman, Mr. Osborne Morgan was called to the Chair. Mr. Richard Hanson a.nd the Reverend Richard Watson Allen were examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. 0.75, f 2 PROCEEDINGS OF THE Tuesday, I6th May 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquhar.son. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Burt. Mr. Ilopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Colonel Digby. Viscount Crichton. Motion made, and Question, That the evidence of all witnesses examined before this Committee in relation to the case of Eliza Southey shall be taken upon oath — (The Chairman) — put, and ar/reed to. Mr. Henry Wlutney and William Matthews were exauiiiied. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, I9tk May 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. The Committee deliberated. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Stansfeld, Mr. Burt. Mr. Hopwood. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That Police Constable Ebenezer Fenn be examined for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not the iletropolitan Police had reasonable ground for the action which they took against Eliza Southey " — (Mr. Osborne JSJorgaii). — Amendment proposed, to leave out all the words from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to insert the words "the right and duty of the Com- mittee with regard to the case of Eliza Southey ai'e to try the question of the Contagious Diseases Acts and of their administration, but that the admission of the evidence of Police Constable Fenn would be in the nature of a jiroceeding to try again, on fresh evidence, not tendered to the magistrates, a young woman who has been honourably acquitted from the charges made against her by them, and that such evidence should therefore not be received" — (Mr. Stansfeld) — instead thereof. — Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." — The Committee divided : Ayes, 5. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Dr. Farquharson. Noes, 3. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Burt. Mr. Hopwood. Police Constable Ebenezer Fenn, Mr. Henry Whitnei/, Mr. Matthews, and Serj(;ant John Bendcdl, were sworn, and examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Tuesday, 2?>rd May 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Sir Henry Wolff. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. Hopwood. Police Constable Thomas Cogger, Elizaheih Jane Southey, Stephen Bates, Mrs. Sarah Ann Ford, Mrs. Sarah Lawrence, and Mrs. Hannah Dyer, were sworn, and examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 26tk May 1 882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair, Dr, Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Osboi-ne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Percy William Bunting and Mr. Rowland Rees were examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 2nd June 1882. members present : Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr, Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Colonel Digby. Sir Henry Wolff. Mr. James Baxendale and Inspector Ody Wenham were examined. . [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, 6th June 1882. members present: Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Osborne Morgan. ' Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Burt. Colonel Digby. Sir Henry Wolff. Dr. Cameron. Police Constable Ebenezer Fenn and Mr. Barnard Charles Miller were examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. 0.75. f 3 PROCEEDINOR OF THE Fridai/, 9th June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnespy in the Chair. Colonel Digby. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Burt. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. James Bell Jardine and Miss Mary .-Iniie JVcli/i were examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelre o'clock. Tuesday, \3f/i June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digby. Mr. Bulwer. IMr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Cameron. Mr. William Luscumbe was examined. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, I6t/i June 1882. members present : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Colonel Digbj'. Ml. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Stansfeld. Inspector Silax R. Anniss aud Mr. Daniel Cooper were examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, '20th June 1882. members present : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farouharsou. Colonel Digby. Mr. I>ulwer. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Burt. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. William Fowler. iMr. Stansfeld. .Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Keverend Canon Jatiies Hegarly and Mr. James Curtis, f.r.CS.I., were examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at One o'clock. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Wednesday, 2\st June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT I Mr. O'Shatjghnesst in the Chair. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Burt. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Reverend Thomas O'Reilly was examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 23rd June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Hopwood. Inspector Silas R. Aniiiss was further examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Twelve o'clock. Tuesday, 27th June 1882. members present : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair, Mr. Burt. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Farquharson. Dr. Cameron. Mr. William Fowler, Mr. Bulwer. Colonel Digby. Mr. Frederick Walter Lowndes was examined. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 30th June 1882. members present : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. , Mr. Hopwood, Colonel Digby Viscount Crichton. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Ernest Noel. Df. Cameron. Sir Henry Wolff: Mr. Walter Scott Seton Karr was examined. The 0.75. f4 xl PROCEEDINGS OF THE The Conunittee deliberated. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That Mr. Cooper be re-callcd and allowed tlie opportunity of contradicting euch ai^siertion of Inspector Anniss, or any other witnesses, as may be deemid by the Conunittee to reflect upon the veracity or character of ]\Ir. Cooper" — (Mr. Ilopwood). — Amendment ])roposcd, to leave out all the words from the word " re-called " to the end of the (Question, in order to insert tlic words " if he desires it, but that his evidence be strictly confined to one point, viz., the allegation of Insj)ector Anniss, that he took a brotliel for the purjiose of signing the petition mentioned in answer to Question 10905" — (Mr. Oshurnc Morgan), — instead thereof — Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand p;u-t of the Question. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 3. Noes, 7. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. Cavendish Beutinck. Mr. Hopwood. Viscount Cricliton. Dr. Camerou. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Sir Henry Woltf. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Dr. Farquharson. Question, " That those words be there inserted" — put, and agreed to. Adjourned till Friday, 28th July, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 28 fh Jnlj/ 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnesst in the Chair. Dr. Farquharson. Viscount Crichton. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Beutinck. The Committee deliberated. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. Bulwer. [Adjourned till Friday next, at Twelve o'clock. Friday, 4th August 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. O'Shaughnessy in the Chair. General Burnaby. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Farquharson. J\lr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. Stansfekl. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. William Fowler. DRAFT REPORT, proposed by the Chairman, read the first lime, as follows:- " 1. After an inquiry, which has extended over a period almost unprecedented in the history of Parliamentary Committees, your Committee are in a position to present tiicir Report. " 2. Your Committee were first appointed in June 1S79, on the motion of the Secretar_y of State for War, for the pui'pose of inquiring into the administration, opei'ation and effect of the Contagious Diseases Acts, 1866-1869, and they were also empowered to receive evidence SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. xU evidence concerning similar systems in the British Colonies, or in other countries, and of rejiorting whether the Acts should be maintained, amended, extended, or repealed. "3. Since that time they have been re-appointed four times, have examined 71 witnesses, and have sat 68 days. "4. Owing to the lamented death of the Right Honourable W. N. Massey, who occupied the Chair of your Committee during the Sessions 1879-81, your Committee have been deprived of the advantage which they would have derived, in the subsequent conduct of their inquiry, and in the prejiaration of their Report, from his intimate acquaintance with the history and working of the Acts. "5. It will be observed, if the lists of the Committee, as nominated in 1879, and in the second Session of 1880, are compared, the Dissolution and General Election of the latter year considerably altered its composition. " 6. In consequence of the length to which it was necessary to extend the inquiry with respect to the operation of the Acts in Great Britain and Ireland, your Committee being desirous to report in the present Session, found themselves unable to receive evidence with reference to the systems prevailing in British Colonies or foreign countries. Your Committee believe that owing to the difference between these systems and that which is the subject of the present inquiry, as well as to the difference between English and Continental habits and social institutions, such an inquiry, if prosecuted, would not have thrown any additional light on the questions referred to them. " 7. At an early stage of their proceedings it was thought desirable by the Committee to divide the inquiry into two branches : " (1st.) The hygienic effect of the Acts, especially on the health of the Army and Navy ; and " (2nd.) The constitutional, moral, and social aspects of their principles and administration. " 8. It was decided that the Government being charged with the administration of these Acts, should first produce evidence of the sanitary benefits of the system, and that then the opponents should be at liberty to call witnesses in support of their views on this subject. " 9. The extent of the subject induced your Committee to exclude from their hygienic inquiry any special investigation into the effect of the Acts on the Navy, and to direct their attention principally to the Army, which affords adequate basis for observation and inference. Some important evidence was presented as to the effect of the system on the civil population. " 10. In the first branch, viz., the hygienic question, seven witnesses were called by the Judge Advocate General, acting on behalf of the War Department, and four by the opponents of the Acts. " 11. Of the remaining 60 witnesses who gave evidence on the second part of the inquiry, i.e., the constitutional, moral, and social aspects of the principles and administration of the Acts, 25 were called by the supporters, and 35 by the opponents of the system. " 12. The 25 Government witnesses include persons belonging to the following classes : Metropolitan police inspectors employed in administering the Acts, four ; physicians, four; surgeon, one; non-professional persons (male), five ; clergymen of the Established Church, two ; Roman Catholic priests, three ; Dissenting minister, one; superintendent of Lock Hospital, one ; police constables, three ; Serjeant in a Line reoiment, one. Those who gave evidence against the Acts may be classified under the following heads: chief constables, five; physician, one; clergymen of the Established Church, two; Dissenting ministers, 12; non-professional persons (male), nine ; (female), six. It is, however, right to add that of these witnesses, at least 12 were called with respect to special cases arising out of the working of the Acts. "Summary of the Contagious Diseases Acts, 1S66 — 1869. " 13. The Contagious Diseases Acts which your Committee are directed to report upon, were passed in the years 1866, 1868, and 1869. They were preceded bj' the first Contagious Diseases Act, which was passed in 1864, and repealed in 1866. This Sratute provided in substance that on information being laid before a justice of the peace by a superintendent or inspector of police, or a medical practitioner showing that he had good cause to believe that a woman was a comm.on prostitute and infected with venereal disease, and that she had been within the limits of certain districts within .a specified time for purposes of prostitution, the justice could order her to be taken to a certified hospital for examination. Provision was also made for voluntary submission to examination on the part of women, and on the certificate of the examining medical officer that the woman was diseased, it was enacted that a justice should issue an order for her detention in hospital for a period not exceeding three months. This Act, while making no provision 0.75. g for xUi PUOCEEDINGS OF THE for the erection of hospitals, contained regulations for the inspection and supervision of such hospitals as miglit become available for the puri)oses of that from any source. It did not, like subsequent legislation, actually enforce examination, but it imposed penalties on women who, being ordered to submit to exiimination, refused to do so, or i|uitted liospital without being duly discharged. It also imposed penalties on owners, occupiers, and managers of houses, rooms, and places within the limits of that for permitting pro- stitutes, who were known, or whom there was reasonable cause to believe to be affected with a contagious disease, to limit to such houses, &c., lor purposes of prostitution. Actofl86C. "14. For the purposes of the Act of 1866, the Admiralty or Secretary of State for "War, as tiie case may be, are empowered to provide hospitals, or places to be certified as hospitals, and to appoint the visiting surgeons and inspectors. The expenses of the Acts are to be provided for in the Army and Navy Estimates. yg,t^ 12 '• 15. IS'o hosjjital, however, can be certified under this Act, unless at tlie time of the granting of a certificate adequate j)rovision is made for the moral and religious instruction of the women detained therein under the Act ; and if at any subsequent time it appears that in any such hospital adequate provision for that purpose is not made, the certificate is to be withdrawn. " 16. The most important provisions of the Act, on which the sections .abovementioned are consequential, arc those which deal with the periodical medical examinations of common prostitutes, and their detention, if diseased, in a hospital. ggj, i5_ " 17. By Section 15, where an information on oath is laid before a justice by a super- intendent of police, charging, to the eflect that the informant has good cause to believe that a woman tlierein named is a common prostitute, and either is resident witiiin the limits of any jilace to wliicli this Act applies, or being resident within five miles of tliose limits, lias, within 14 days before the laying of the information, been within those limits for the purpose of prostitution, the justice may, if he thinks fit, issue a notice calling on such woman to a])pear at a certain time and jdace, which notice the superintendent of police shall cause to be served on her. Sect. 16, " 18. If the woman appears to the summons, or if no such appearance is made, and it is proved that the notice was properly served on her, the justice on being satisfied on oath of the truth of the information, may order the woman to be subjected to a periodical medical examination by the visiting surgeon for any period not exceeding one year, for the purpose of ascertaining at the time of each such examination whether she is affected with a contagious disease. This order is to specify the time and place at mIucIi the woman shall attend for the first examination. Sect. 17. " Any woman may, by a voluntary submission in writing, signed by her in the presence of the superintendent, subject herself to a periodical examination for any period not exceeding one year. Sect. 16. " The times and places of examination are to be fixed by the visiting surgeon, subject to regulations, by the Admiralty or Secretary of State for War. Sect. 20. " If 0'> examination the woman is found diseased, she may be detained in hospital, under the certificate of the visiting surgeon, until discharged by the chief medical officer. Sect 24. " It is provided that no woman shall be detained longer than three months, unless the medical officer of the hospital, and the inspector of certified hospitals, or the visiting surgeon for the place whence she came, certify that further detention for treatment is requisite ; she may then be furtlier detained, but no detention under one certificate shall be longer than six months. ggg{_ 25 " Any woman who refuses to go to a certified hospital after the certificate of the visiting surgeon, may be conveyed there by the police. Power is also given for a woman, who thinks herself unjustly detained, to go before a justice, who may discharge her on being satisfied that she is free from disease. Sect. 32. " ^ o order for periodical examination shall be in force for more than a year, and if a woman is certified to be free from disease on her discharge from a hospital, the order ceases to operate. ggjtg 33 35 " Any woman who desires to be relieved from examination, and who is not detained in a hospital, may apply, in writing, to a justice, nho shall hear the case ; and if he is satisfied that she has ceased to be a common prostitute, or if, with his approval, she enters into a recognizance for her good behaviour during three months, he may order her to be released therefrom. Sect. 36. " An owner or occupier within the limits to which this Act applies who knowingly allows a diseased prostitute to resort to his house for the purpose ot prostitution, is liable to a i)enalty not exceeding 20 I., or to imjirisonment for six months, with or without hard labour. "19. 'The periodical examinations' take place at intervals of a fortnight. The Act of 1868 merely enacts that the term 'superintendent' shall include 'head constable, &c.j' in Ireland. " 20. The Act of 1869 extended locally the operation of the Acts (for the purjiose amongst others of preventing prostitutes from evading the operation of the system by going SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. xliii goins immediately outside the limits of the subjected towns and camps), and provided, amongst other things : — * "First, that any woman attending under the provisions of the Act of 1866 for examination, and found by the visiting surgeon to be in such a condition that he could not properly examine her, should, if such surgeon had reasonable grounds for believing her affected with a contagious disease, be liable to be detained in a certified hospitaruntil she could be properly examined, so that she should not be so detained for a period exceeding five days. " Second, that a woman might be detained for a period not exceeding three months, in addition to the six months allowed under the Act of 1866, if a certificate to the effect that her further detention for medical treatment was requisite was given at, the expiration of such six months ; so, nevertheless, that no woman should be detained under one certificate for a longer time in the whole than nine months. "21. The Acts apply to 13 districts in Great Britain, and two in Ireland, selected on account of the number of soldiers and sailors quartered in them, and the amount and virulence of venereal disease they gave proof of in periods anterior to the passing of the Acts. " Great Britain. Aldershot. Cant erbury. Chatham, Gravesend, and Sheer- ness. Colchester. Dover. Maidstone. Plymouth and Devonport. Portsmouth. Shorncliffe. Southampton. Winchester. Windsor. Woolwich. " Ireland. The Curragh. | Cork and Queenstown. " Southampton is not treated as a subjected station in the Army Medical Reports. " 22. The limits of many of the above-named places, hereafter referred to as ' subjected districts,' include, for the purposes of the Acts, localities geographically outside them. Thus, for instance, Plymouth and Devonport include amongst other places, Dartmouth. The Acts apply not merely to common prostitutes residing within the limits of the sub- jected districts, but also to common prostitutes, who, being resident within 10 miles of such limits, or, having no settled place of abode, have within 14 days before the laying of the information, either been within those limits for the purpose of prostitution, or been outside of those limits for the purposes of prostitution in the company of men resident within those limits. " Report of the Rotal Commission, 1871. " 23. Before the end of 1869 a formidable opposition to the Acts had arisen, supported Report, Royal by many persons of station and intelligence, and among others by several ladies, who Commission, 1871. resented this legislation as insulting to their sex, and tending to the deterioration of public morals. A motion for repeal of the Acts was brought forward in the House of Commons, and the Government recommended the issue of a Royal Commission to inquire into and report upon their Administration and Operation. " 24. A Royal Commission of 25 members, of which Mr. Massey was president, was accordingly appointed, and in sittings which occupied 45 days, from 14th December 1870 to 13th May 1871, examined between 80 and 90 witnesses. " 25. A Report, signed by the whole of the Commission, with certain reservations by some of its members, was the result of the inquiry. The Commissioners, recalling the fact that periodical examination was only in partial operation up to May 1870, and that the returns were only made up to the end of that year, pointed out that statistical tables (formed on such return) could not be conclusive as to the physical effect of frequent periodical examination. But they subsequently added, though the numerical results of the statistics must be inclusive, the evidence before them appeared to testify to a general impression on the part of the medical officers of both services, that the Acts had operated beneficially on the health of the men. The Report stated that the Commission had come to the conclusion that although the periodical examination of common prostitutes was the most effectual mode of dealing with venereal disease, it would be difficult, if not practically impossible, to make the system general, even if on other grounds it were desirable to do so ; that the restriction of the remedy of periodical examination to a few places, while the disease was general through the country, was a state of things that could not in their opinion be per- manently maintained ; and that a modification of the Acts might be arrived at by which they might be stripped of their anomalous and offensive character, without materially impairing their efficiency. 0.75. g2 "(1.) That xliv rROCEEDINGS OF THE " (1.) That the periodical examination of public women should be discontinued. " (2.) That every common prostitute found to be diseased after an examination by a medical officer upon a voluntary submission, or upon a magistrate's order, sht)uld be detained in a certified hospital until discharged by a magistrate's order, or by the authorities of such hospital ; provided that such detention should in no case exceed three months. "(3.) That in order to obtain a conviction inidor s. 36, of the Act of ISGG, it should not be necessary to prove that the owner or occupier of the house therein named had reasonable cause to believe that the prostitute resorting to his house was atfected with a contagious disease. " (4.) That 32 & 33 Vict. c. 9G (the Act of 1869), ss. 3, 4, and 5, be repealed. " (5.) That the Secretary of State for the Home Department should be substi- tuted for the Commissioners of the Admiralty, and the Secretary of State for the War Department in tlic Act of 1866, and that the police employed in carrying the Aots into force should perform their duty in uniform instead of plain clothes. " (6.) That the main provisions of the repealed Act of 1864 (v/ith an amendment of the provision imposing penalties for permitting women to resort to for purposes of prostitution corresponding to the amendment contained in Section 36 of the Act of 1866) should be extended to any place in the United Kingdom (excei)t the Cities of London and Westminster), from whicli a request for such extension should be made, and in wliich proper hospital accommodation should be provided. " (7.) That every keeper of a public-house harbouring prostitutes should be de- prived of his license. "(8.) That every keeper of a common lodging-house harbouring prostitutes should be subject to the penal clauses of the Common Lodging Houses Acts. " (9.) That the certificate of the Secretary of State under 19 & 20 Vict, c 69, 8. 16 (the Police Counties and Boroughs Act), should certify that the third section of the Vagrant Act, 5 Geo. 4, c. 83, and the section of the Towns Police Clauses Act, 10 & 11 Vict. c. 89, relating to common prostitutes and night walkers have been duly observed, " (10.) That 24 & 25 Vict. c. 100 (the Act to consolidate and amend the Statute Law relating to Otiences against the Person), ss. 51 and 52, should be amended, by making them applicable in cases where the girl was under 14 years of age. " (11.) That girls under the age of 16 acting as common prostitutes should be sent to a home or industrial school for a period not exceeding two years, if they could not be otherwise provided for to the satisfaction of a magistrate. " (12) That the Acts should be partially extended to the Metropolis. " The Commissioners observed that the Act of 1866 was not applicable to the amend- ment of the law as proposed by them, as they did not propose special legislation for the benefit of the Army and Navy, but thought that, for the public good, particular districts, from any cause peculiarly liable to contagious disease, should be subject to special sani- tary reiTulations. They therefore approved of the establishment of iiospitals at the public charge, and of police regulations enforced under central authority within such districts. Although the Keport was signed by all the members of the Royal Commission, seven of them appended a dissent to certain portions of it, especially to the recommendations that the periodical examinations should be given up, and the Act of 1864 practically re-enacted. After pointing out the diminution of disease effected by the Act of 1866, the seven dissentients state : — " We now proceed to recapitulate the good moral effects which these calumniated Acts have produced, and which, in our opinion, far outweigh any moral objections which have been, or can be, alleged against them. " (a.) Keligious and moral influence has been brought to bear upon large numbers of women, a great portion of whom had been from infancy familiar only with scenes of debauchery and vice. " (b.) Towns and camps have been cleared, or nearly so, of the miserable creatures who were formerly to be found in their streets and thoroughfares. " (c.) A considerable number of abandoned women have been reclaimed and restored to respectable life, and in many instances married. " (d.) The number of town women have been greatly reduced, and those who remain have been rendered more decent and decorous in appearance and conduct. " (e.) The practice of clandestine prostitution, which too often degenerate into professional vice, has been materially checked by fear of the consequences of such iudulffence which are rendered probable under these Acts. "'{/.) The SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. xlv " * (/•) The sad spectacle of juvenile prostitutes of tender age, so rife in such localities heretofore, has been greatly dimiiiished, in some instances almost removed. "'(ff-) The temptations by which young men of all classes have been hitherto assailed, have been, to a great extent, taken out of their way, and morality has thus been promoted. " ' Such are some of the good effects, irrespective of the diminution of disease, which we are led to believe by the evidence before us have been obtained by these Acts, and probably many of those who conscientiously disapprove of these Acts have been unaware of the results brought to light by this inquiry.' " Another dissent was signed by six members of the Commission, who objected to the revival of the compulsory powers of surgical examination, and committal to hospital, con- tained in the Act of 1864. These powers, they allege, were open to the objections recognised in the Report as valid against the periodical examination authorised by the Acts of 1866 and 1869, as well as to other objections. " Four of the six who signed the last-mentioned dissent, signed a further document in which they expressed their dissent from the opinion expressed in the Report, that ' the most effectual mode of preventing the disease is the regular examination of women at short intervals.' " 26. Your Committee now proceeds to state the result of its first, or hygienic inquiry. The Contagious Diseases Acts were passed with two objects, the diminution of venereal disease and the increased efficiency of the military and naval services. Your Committee has conducted its inquiry into the hygienic effect of the system with the view of learning how far these objects have been attained. " 27. Under the head of venereal diseases are included syphilis and gonorrhoea. The classification of the forms and developments of syphilis has been a subject of controversy between the witnesses before your Committee. The Medical Depart- ment of the Army divides it, only, however, for certain statistical purposes, into primary venereal sores, and secondary syphilis. Some primary sores are merely local, others affect the constitution, and their more immediate results, which vary, are called secondary symptoms. Some of the evidence laid before your Committee was directed to prove that syphilis had lost much of its virulence, and was no longer so great a physical evil as in the past. But the testimonies to its severity, and to the injuries inflicted by it on the person who contracts it by contact, and on his or her innocent descendants, were irresistible. Your Committee is of opinion that however increased medical skill and improved sanitary conditions may have mitigated its results, or prepared the human frame to withstand it, it has lost little of its virulence when prompt and adequate measures for its treatment are not taken. It is still, when local, a painful and disabling malady ; and, in its constitutional form, the cause not only of the numerous diseases and deaths generally attributed to it, but, in the opinion of eminent and experienced physicians, of much sickness and premature mortality, ordinarily set down to other sources, not only in those who contract it, but in their innocent offspring. The Report of the Royal Com- mission cites opinions as to the formidable character of syphilis given by Sir James Paget, Sir Wm, Jenner, and Mr. Prescott Hewett, which sustain the inference drawn by your Committee from the evidence laid before them on the subject. Sir James Paget said, before a Committee of the House of Lords, ' We now know that certain diseases of the lungs, liver and spleen, are all of syphilitic origin, and the mortality from syphilis in its later forms is every year found to be larger and larger by its being found to be the source of a number of diseases which previously were referred to other origins, or to accidents, or which were put down under various heads that they did not belong to. Sir Wm. Jenner dwelt on the transmission of syphilis to the offspring of a diseased parent. Mr. Prescott Hewett, when asked whether the evil existed to such a degree as to require, if possible, legislative remedy, answered, ' Certainly, if possible. I do not know any disease that is more terrible to my mind than this.' Gonorrhoea is not followed by the fatal consequences which result from constitutional syphilis. It causes in many instances an amount of local inflammation which interferes seriously for the time with the physical efficiency of the patient, and, in no inconsiderable number of cases, it leads to sequela, often of a serioua character. " 28. For the purposes of the inquiry comparisons were instituted — " (a.) Between 14 subjected districts (Southampton being left out), and all unsubjected stations. "(6.) Between the same 14 subjected districts and 14 unsubjected stations, namely : Isle of Wight. London. Warley. Hounslow. Pembroke Dock. Sheffield. Manchester. Preston. Edinburgh, Fermoy. Limerick. Dublin. Athlone. Belfast. 0.75. g3 "29. A disturbing xlvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE " 29. A disturbing element, which it will appear considerably affected the statistics, came into force in 1873. In October of that year au order, known as Lord Cardwell' Order, was issued, which had the effect of stopi>ing tlie pay of men under treatment for primary syphilis and gonorrhtua. Tliis led, in all military stations, to considerable concealment of both these forms of disease, to an a])i)arcnr, but unreal diminution of their prevalence, and to an ajiparent and real increase of secondary s3'[)hilis, the result of concealed and neglected primary sores. This Order ceased to operate late in 1879. " As the Acts h.ad got into full working order by the beginning of 1870, and continued effective till 1873, when the consequences of Lord Cardwell's Order began to interfere with their operation, the statistics of the period from 1870 to 1873 afford the most satis- factory basis for estimating the value of the system. " 30. Your Committee would premise that prima facie, and in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, it might fairly be presumed that a me;u*ure which has the effect of secluding while in a diseased condition a class of persons admittedly instrumental in pro[)agating a contagious disease, must tend in some degree to diminish the disease. The evidence taken before your Committee fully bears out this presumption. " 31. Syphilis, like certain other maladies, fluctuates under the operation of causes not yet brought completely within the range of science. Its intensity will increase for one period, and diminish for the next, without any palpable reason. This circumstance must be borne in mind in estimating the etl'ect of the Acts. A reduction of syphilis in a given period in a subjected district may be to some extent the result of such a fluctuation, and to guard against any error from this source it is necessary to contrast the condition of unsubjected stations before with their condition at periods after the passing of the Acta. The contrast will show what may be supposed to be due to fluctuation and to other causes outside the Acts. The next step is to contrast the conditions of subjected districts for the same periods. Finally, if, on comparing the changes of condition which have taken place in unsubjected districts where natural fluctuations and ordinary causes liave been at work and not impeded with the changes of condition in subjected districts where, in addition to such fluctuation and causes, the Acts have been in operation, it is found that there is a marked difference between the directions or amounts of change, the differ- ence is, in the opinion of your Committee, to be set down to the influence of the Acts. " 32. Your Committee in tlie course of its inquiry contrasted the changes of condition as to the three kinds of venereal disease between the period anterior to the operation of the system, and the period immediately following its introduction in tlie 14 subjected districts. They instituted a similar contrast in the case of all the stations which have never come under the Acts, called, for the sake of brevity, ' the non-subjected stations ■or districts.' A twofold comparison, of periods of equal length, was instituted. The first contrasted the period from 1861 to 1866 inclusive, with the period from 1867 to 1872 inclusive. The former of these periods covers a time when the Acts of 1866 and 1869 were not in force, the latter a time during the earlier part of which, though not completely applied, they were being actively brought into operation, and during the latter part of which, from 1870 to 1872, they were, as we have seen, in full working order. "33. The second comparison contrasted the period between 1860 and 1863, the period immediately preceding the introduction of the system by the Act of 1864, with the period between 1870 and 1873, the period of their full operation. " 34. Your Committee also took evidence contrasting the 14 subjected with all the unsubjected stations from 1873 to 1878. The statistics of 1878 are the latest which your Committee has been in a position to deal with for the purposes of their Report. " Primary Venereal Sores. "35. At all unsubjected stations the annual rate per thousand of admissions from 1861 to 1866 was 103-0; from 1867 to 1872, 93-6. This shows a fall of 9-4, equivalent to 9 per cent, of the former ratio. In the subjected districts the ratio per thousand from 1861 to 1866 was 109-7, and from 1867 to 1872, 65-4. This shows a fall of 44-3, equiva- lent to 40 per cent, of the former ratio. The reduction of 9 per cent, in the unsubjected stations, being the result of natural fluctuations and ordinary causes, and thus indicating a general abatement of the disease through the community, an equal reduction must be assumed to have been effected by the same causes in the subjectere) was proved by his comnuniicating the disease in a very severe form to his wife, and he was not what is termed a 'syphilised' man {i.e., a man protected by previous inoculation from true syphilitic contagion) for he never had had previously any kind of venereal sore.' The Army Mcdioal Department being obliged to "jive returns of primary sores as they arise, without waiting; for their development, is under the necessity of classing in its returns all primary soies under one head lor statistical purposes. This does not pledge it to either of the theories described, nor docs it ap])car to your Committee to interfere with the value of the departmental statistics as to the disease. " 52. Some of the medical opponents of the Acts have urged as an argument against the value of the cNauiinatiou that it is dilHcult to ascertain the presence of syphilis in the female. One of these witnesses, Dr. Iloutli, went so far as to say that out of a given number of diseased women coming to a competent medical man, the examination would prove abortive, and the medical man would not be able to ascertain the traces of disease in about one-half these cases. It must be remarked that most of the medical witnesses who insist on the difficulty of ascertaining tiie presence of the disease, stop far short of this opinion- Your Conmiittee, taking into account all the medical evidence given on this subject, liave come to the conclusion that while, undoubtedly, cases may occur in which the traces of disease escape notice, they are unusual, and that an experienced surgeon will rarely fail to detect venereal. " 53. Your Committee examined carefully into the question how far the Acts have operated to influence tlie efficiency of the Army. Their eflect in this resj)ect was con- sidered from several ]>uints of view, and it appears that tliey have augmented the available strength of the Army to an extent proportioned to that which the statistics show that they have diminished disease. Applying the plan adopted for measuring the true eft'cct of the Acts in reducing disease, j"Our Committee contrasted the ciianges ot condition as to efficiency (so far as the diminution or increase of efficiency resulted from a greater or lesser number of men being in hospital in consequence of venereal disease) in unsubjected with corresponding changes in subjected districts. This comparison involved considerable difficulty, but after carefully eliminating all discoverable inaccuracies and sources of error, your Conmiittee were satisfied, contrasting the 14 subjected with all imsubjected stations, that during the period between 1870 and 1873, when the Acts were in full operation, unaffected by Lord Cardwell's Order, they saved 5o8 men per 1,000 dally to the Army. The daily loss from venereal disease in the 1-1 subjected stations fioni 1860 to 1863, was 24-01 per 1,000; in the unsubjected stations 19-75 per 1,000, or 4-26 less . than in the subjected. This last number constitutes 5!^ of the rates at the unsubjected stations. Starting with this disadvantage, the subjected stations showed in 1870-1873, a daily loss of 11-31 pef ] ,000, against a daily loss in the unsubjected, of 13-73. The difference, 2-42 per 1,000, does not show all that has been effected in the way of saving by the Acts, because it does not take into account that at the period 1860-1863, previous to the operation of any of the Acts, the subjected districts were in a worse position, as regards diminution of efficiency, than the unsubjected by ^i^ of the amount observed in the latter. In order to make up for the advantage possessed by the unsubjected districts in the period before the Acts, and thus to show the real improvement effected uuder and by virtue of tiie Acts in the subjected districts, it is necessary to add to the ratio of daily loss per 1,000 from 1870 to 1873 in the unsubjected districts, an amount corresponding with the relative advantage as to daily loss they possessed over the subjected from 1860 to 1863, namely, as has been stated, ^^ of their amount of daily loss. Adding, therefore, to 13-73 ^j^ of itself, namely, 2-96, a sum of 11-69 is obtained, and subtracting thence 11-31, the ratio of daily loss per 1,000 in the subjected districts, a difference of 5-38 per 1,000, representing the true saving effected by the Acts is the result. Tills, it is to be borne in mind, means that out of 16-69 per 1,000, who would probably have been dally withdrawn from the efficient strength per 1,000 of the Army in the subjected districts, if they had not been under the Acts, 5-38 per 1,000 have been daily saved to the efficient strength of the Army by the operation of the Acts. " 54. A remarkable instance of the effect of venereal disease in diminishing efficiency in unprotected districts was presented to your Committee in the third year of their inquiry. It appeared that within 10 months of the arrival of a regiment in Dublin, over 43 per cent, of its men had been incapacitated from duty b}' venereal disease. " 55. In a general sense, as has been said, the effect of Lord Cardwell's Order has been uniform on all districts, subjected and unsubjected ; but it is to be borne in mind that the concealment to which it led resulted in the neglect of primary disease, and conse- quently in an increased virulence of secondary disease. Now the more virulent secondary disease is, the longer time it will require for treatment, and the more it will diminish the efficiency of the Army by keeping men in hospital. But it has been shown that while both subjected and unsubjected districts are charged with an amount of secondary disease, contracted outside their resjjective limits, the subjected districts have been charged SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. ll charged with a greater proportion of secondaries contracted outside them than the unsubjected. Lord Cardwell's Order increasing the virulence of this excessive propor- tion of secondary syphilis, unduly charged to the subjected distficts, has added to the disadvantage at which the excessive importation of secondaries has placed the subjected districts as to the number of men in hospital, and the diminution of the daily efficiency per 1,000 of the Army. " 56. Your Committee have had evidence tending to show that the Acts have dimi- nished venereal disease in the civil population in those parts of Great Britain where they have been in operation. In dealing with the statistics of mortality from syphilis it must be borne in mind that, as already stated, many deaths primarily due to syphilis are set down to other causes. All the subjected stations in Great Britain, save two, are in the second and fifth divisions of the Registrar General ; the exceptions are Colchester, which is in the fourth, and AVoolwich, which is in the first, or Metropolitan division. The variations in the number of deaths from syphilis in the second and fifth divisions were contrasted Avith the variations in the other divisions which were almost entirely, as in the case of the first and fourth, or altogether as in the case of all the others save the first and fourth, outside the region of the Acts. The second and fifth divisions for the three quin- quennial periods, 1865-9, 1870-4, 1875-9, showed a reduction from first to last, of 14 per cent, in the deaths from syjihilis in the civil population. The third, fourth, and sixth divisions immediately north of the second and fifth, showed over the same period an increase of 16 per cent. ; proceeding still northward, the seventh and eleventh showed an increase of 37 per cent., while the most northern part showed an increase of 15 ])er cent. The Metropolitan division showed a moderate decrease of about 9 per cent, over the whole period. , Your Committee do not attribute its exceptional position to the fact of its containing "Woolwich, which, compared with the entire division, is too small to be an important factor; but your Committee are of opinion that the general figures show that the Acts have diminished mortality from syphilis among the civil population to a consi- derable distance around them. They have also received evidence showing that the number of cases of venereal disease presented for treatment from the civil population to practitioners in several subjected districts, has fallen ofi' considerably, a circumstance which points to a general diminution of disease outside the Army in subjected districts. " 57. The extent to which the Acts have diminished primary and constitutional or secondary syphilis in the subjected districts appears of itself, to your Committee, to establish the hygienic utility of the Acts. The diminution of gonorrhoBa in the subjected districts attributable to the Acts in the same period is less considerable but substantial. " 58. In connection with this part of the subject, your Committee cannot overlook the very general opinion of the medical profession, both in and outside of the subjected districts, who on hygienic grounds strongly advocate the maintenance of the Acts. " 59. Your Committee is of opinion that the Acts have successfully served the two objects to which they were directed — the diminution of venereal disease, and the increased efficiency of the Army. It is to be remembered that the Acts have had in reality but an inadequate trial. In the earlier years, from 1866 to 1869, they were not in full efficiency. The three following years were not a sufficiently long period to develop their full Influence, and their utility thenceforward has been diminished, up to 1879, by the action of Lord Cardwell's Order. The benefit conferred since 1866 Is great, but it is only an earnest of ■what the Acts may be expected to do hereafter for the health and efficiency of the Army. " 60. Ycur Committee now proceed to deal with the second branch of their inquiry, namely, the operation of the Acts as regarded in their constitutional, moral, ajid social aspects, a subject involving considerations of great delicacy and difficulty. " Objections (on othek than Hygienic Grounds) t© the Acts. " The main objections raised against the Acts from these points of view may be stated as follows : — " (1.) That they Involve the recognition and regulation of vice by the State, and are therefore an outrage upon public morality. " (2.) That they violate the first principles of constitutional law. " (3.) That, in practice, they tend to increase sexual vice, by creating an impression on the rniuds both of soldiers and civilians that It may be indulged with impunity. " (4.) That they subject women to restraints and penalties from which men are free. " (5.) That under them virtuous and respectable women at the instance, and even on the mere caprice of the police, may be, and, as a matter of fact, are, brought before a magistrate, classed as prostitutes, and subjected to a painful and degrading exami- nation. " (6.) That they have increased what is called ' clandestine prostitution.' " It will be convenient to discuss each of these objections under a separate head. 0.75. b2 "61. The lii PKOCEEDINGS OF TUE " 61. Tlie two first objections to the Acts are objections of principle. Tlie opponents urge tiiiit, whotlicr hygienically successful or not, and wliethcr well or ill admiiiistered, tliey violate i)riiici|)les"ori)arauiount moral and consritutional value. Tiiis argument has been j)ressed to such an extent, that some witnesses have not hesitated to declare that the more successful tiie Acts liave proved from a sanitary point of view, tlie more objection- able the}' are from a mural point of view. " 62. It is said that they regulate prostitution, and offer it in return for obedience to the regulations of the State, a definite toleration. Your Committee have afforded the exponents of this view ample (ip|uirtunity of explaining their opiiiions, and iiave endea- voured to Iciirn the jjositiou whicii, in their judgment, the Slate, apart from tliesc Acts, does maintain, and also the position which, according to them, tiie State ought to maintain in reference to the social evil. It is not denied that the State permits prostitution to exist. The prostitute is punishable if she carries on iter trade in such a manner as to outrage public decency, or violate certain laws and regulations not directed against the habit of prostitution, ])ure :ind simple, Init against the habit, under certain aggravating circumstances of disorder. Simjile prostitution is at present, not connived at, but openly tolerated. Women known to be engaged in it are permitteil to appear in public, noto- riously with a view to ai)j)lying their trade, ])rovided they abstain from solicitation and indecent and disorderly conduct. If tliere be any law prohibitory of j)rostitutiun, pure and simple, it is a dead letter. As to the position which the State ought to talce up, it has not been seriously argued tliat it would be prudent to attemj)t the total sujipression of the evil. It has not been contended that its suppression by the Slate is practically pos- sible. Now it apjiears to your Committee that ii' the State tolerates tiiis evil, it is under a certain obligation to mitigate, as far as possible, the grave injuries resulting from it. Further, if it is admitted that tlie State cannot suppress the evil, it is diifieult to see how those who make this admission, and thus absolve the State from the obligation of sup- pression, can consistently deny the State the right to take effective measures for the pur- pose of minimising the injurious results of the evil. The Acts do not give prostitution more toleration than it enjoyed before their existence, or than it now cnioys, where they are not in force. It is not the Acts, but the administration of tlie ordinary law that gives it toleration. All the Acts have done is to insist that the toleration permitted by the ni- stitutions of the country shall be exercised with less detriment to public health. " 63. It is alleged that the Act involves in principle the encouragement of vice by offering safety to its indulgence. It has not, howevei', been seriously argued that the Acts were passed with this object. In subsequent paragraphs your Committee give their reasons for the belief that they have not, as a matter of fact, done so. It then, it is admitted that their object was not to encourage vice, and if your Committee are right in the belief that as a matter of fact they do not operate in that direction, it seems to your Committee un- reasonable to charge them with a violation of moral principle which was not intended in framing the system, nor produced in the course of its administration. The argument founded on tlie alleged encouragement of vice by the Acts is, in principle, available ao-ainst any State institution or system devised to cure disease in the known prostitute, because such institution or system must diminish the chance of the infliction of disease on men who consort with her after her cure. If the State encourages vice by insisting on submission to examination and treatment, and liy thus inducing men to believe they can sin with impunity, it would also encourage vice by offering the prostitute special facilities for cure, and inducements to avail herself of them. Some opponents of the Acts, con- scious of the force of this view, object to the endowment of Lock hospitals by the State. They are, however, willipg that the disease should be treated in general hosy)itals side by side with other diseases. It is obvious that if the argument against enforced examination and cure,, founded on the impunity it offers to sin, be valid, it is in princijjle available against any aid being given by the State for the treatment of unreclaimed prostitutes in common hospitals, as well as for the erection of separate hospitals, and not only against the grant of such aid by the State, but against its grant from the rates, and from pi-ivate individuals. Your Committee are of opinion that the objection to the system on the gi-ound of the alleged encouragement or lacilities given to vice involves fuudamentally the opinion, which however the opj)onents of the Acts strenuously reject, that prostitutes who have no intention of leaving their calling should not be provided Avith the means of cure, least their freedom from disease should encourage men to associate with them. "■ It has been usual for the opponents of the system to assume that the Acts are analagous to certain continental methods of dealing with prostitution, which avowedly offer facilities for vice. It seems to your Committee that the contrast between the Acts and the notorious features of certain continental systems affords strong proof that the former violate no principle of morality. The English statutes make an attempt at recla- mation by moral and religious agencies an essential part of every attempt to check the evils of prostitution. The foreign systems tend to confine public women in brothels, ■where every good influence is avowedly excluded. The insistence on religious and moral influences make the system in principle an ally and not an enemy of religion and morality. Whether they practically work in this direction is a question of fact hereafter to be con- sidered. But your Committee are of opinion that so far as the objection of principle is concerned, it is not well founded. 64.— (^2.) It SELECT COMSllTTEE OSf COKTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. liii ■-' 64. _ (2.) It is also alleged that the Acts violate constitutional rights by the authority they confer over the person of the prostitute. Your Committee have found nothing in the arguments brought forward in support of this view which is not in principle equally cogent against other enactments which have been passed for the purpose of diminishing disease in the community by insisting on its prevention or cure in the individual. The State insists on vaccination, and on the isolation and treatment of persons suffering from certain infectious diseases. In doing so, the State assumes a certain authority over the person of the individual for the preservation of the general health. It follows precisely the same principle in asserting its right to prevent the spread of venereal disease. It is said tliat the pieans used by the State for this object, namely, the compulsory examina- tion of the prostitute, makes the interference of the State unconstitutional. Your Com- mittee reject this view. The prostitute, of her own free will, makes her person a source of danger, not only to the men who consort with her, but to innocent persons. She cannot justly complain if she is compelled to submit to examination and treatment which her own deliberate act has rendered necessary for the good of the community. If it were found, as a matter of fact, that her examination and treatment had the effect of con- firming her in evil, it might well be argued that the State had no right to lessen the chances of moral reclamation for the purpose of preventing physical injury. Your Com- mittee, in subsequent paragraphs, tiive reasons for their belief that no such effect is pro- duced by the system, and they are of opinion that the authority assumed by the State is not unconstitutional. The prostitute, in order to prevent the spread of a fatal disease, is compelled to submit to measures which are not in themselves mdecent, and which virtuous vcomen undergo voluntarily. The examination is not in itself, and apart from the causes which necessitate it a dishonour, and the compulsion to which the prostitute has to submit, is the result of her own misconduct. " (3.) As to the objection that these Acts by making vice safe practically operate so as to increase immorality, your Committee from the very nature of the question feel that it is one with which it is difficult to deal. It is not easy to diagnose the various motives ■which impel or restrain different men to or from vicious sexual indulgence, and it is pro- bable that these motives vary considerably according to the age, disposition, and circum- stances of each individual. But the evidence which your Committee have received on the subject, as well as the inherent probabilities of the case, lead to the conclusion that, as a rule, men who indulge in irregular sexual intercourse, especially the younger and more reckless among them, gratify their wicked passions without the slightest regard to any sanitary consequence, and that the fear of disease is absolutply no check upon the gratification of what is often nothing more than a strong animal instinct. Your Committee therefore think that in this respect too the opponents of the Act have failed to make out their case. It is worthy of observation that this objection, founded as it is on the sup- posed tendency of the Acts to secure immunity from disease, is urged by the very persons who contend that they have, from a sanitary point of view, proved a complete failure. "(4.) The fourth objection may be quickly disposed of. The Acts are directed not against women, but against prostitutes, re., against a class who, as stated in the Report of the Royal Commission (paragraph 60), ' commit the sin of fornication as a matter of gain,' and it may be added, in the deliberate exercise of their calling, and who are specially liable to contract and propogate disease in the exercise of that calling. Among the male part of the population no correspondmg class exists, and it is difficult to see to what men such legislation could be applied. To extend it to the whole male population of the country or of any particular district would be almost as absurd as to extend it to the whole female population, while the medical examination of soldiers, if thought desirable from a sanitary point of view, might be, and in certain cases is, carried out as a matter of military regulation without the need for any actual legislation. It may be observed, in passing, that since the cancelling of Lord Cardwell's Order already referred to, there is not the same inducement to soldiers to conceal venereal disease of any kind. "(5.') The fifth objection to the Act is of the gravest kind, and if it could be sustained would be, in the opinion of your Committee, fatal to their maintenance. They have, therefore, thought it their duty to spare no labour in probing it to the utmost. " Before proceeding further with this branch of the inquiry, your Committee would call special attention to the fact that in the course of 16 years not a single case has been brought before your Committee in which any woman alleged to have been wrongfully brought under the operation of the Acts has brought an action or taken legal proceedings against the police authorities in respect of any act done by them under the Contagious Diseases Acts. Considering the lar^e funds at the disposal of the various associations for the repeal of the Acts — the zeal and activity with which their operations have been carried on, and the oiDportunities for the exposure of the alleged vices of the system, which such proceedings, even if unsuccessful, would afford, your Committee cannot but regard this fact as a significant testimony to the conduct of the police. The explanation given by Mr. Shaen in his evidence (Q. 7137 — 4 9), that under the 42nd section of the Act of 1866, the defendant to such an action ' might plead generally that the act complained of was done in pursuance or execution, or intended pursuance or execution of the Acts, and give the Act and the special matter in evidence at any trial to be had thereupon,' seems to your Cemmittee singularly insufficient. It must be obvious to anyone acquainted with legal procedure that such a plea would in no way protect any person acting under the Acts from the consequences of such misconduct as has been imputed to the police. 0.75. h 3 " Various Uv puoc'eedi>;gs of the I et seg. " Various cases have, however, been brought before your Committee in whicli it was alleged that an attempt had been made by the police charged with the nchninislration of the Acts imj)roperly to bring women under their ojicratiou. Many of tiicse cases were defended by the agents of the societies for the rei)cal of tlic Act, and in some cases such defences were successful. Considering, however, the number of years during whicli the Acts have been in operation, your Committee cannot but think that, es[)ccially of late years, these eases have been very rare, while the evidence by whicli it has been sought to substantiate them, has been anj-thing but satisfactory. " On the whole, therefore, your Committee are not satisfied that in a single case the action of the police has been marked by tlie carelessness and misconduct recklessly attri- buted to them. Even wliere the summonses have been dismissed by the magistrates the cases appear to have warranted reasonable suspicion, or to have been surrounded by doubt, the benefit of which was naturallj- given to the women sunnnoned. On the other hand, ninny of the most strenuous opjioncnts of the system liave testified to the great care and discretion with vihich tiic police liavc acted. In a recent case, however, alluded to as the Dover case, which Avas dismissed bj' the borough justices without hearing the defence, the chai-ges brought against the police (who, it is only fair to state, were not jiro- fessionally represented before the magistrates) were so grave and specific that your Committee felt it to be their duty to sift the case thoroughly, not with a view of reviewing or contesting the decision of the justices, but in order to sec whether the police acted with reasonable discretion. For this purpose they called not only those witnesses who were examined before the magistrates, but several other witnesses who were in a position to throw light upon the case. The evidence of these witnesses (who were examined on oath) occupied more than three whole days, and will be found in the printed Evidence. Your Committee think it unnecessary to make any comment on this evidence, except to say that they think that the conduct of the police charged with the administration of the Act was not open to censure. " In connection with this part of the subject, it should be borne in mind that one of the charges brought against the Acts is, that they arc administered vnth so much laxity that almost any prostitute who chooses can evade their operation. It is hardly necessary to point out that this objection, which will be hereafter considered, is, on the face of it, scarcel)' consistent with the theory, that they have introduced a system of esinonage fatal to personal liberty, or even that they have been carried out with undue severity. " Your Committee therefore arc of ojnnion that the charges of misconduct brought against the police have broken down, and they desire to record their concurrence in the opinion unanimously expressed by the Royal Commission (para. 23 of the Report) '• That the police are not chargeable with any abuse of their authority, and that they have hitherto discharged a novel and difficult duty with moderation and caution.' " {6^. It is charged that the Acts have increased clandestine prostitution in the sub- jected'districts. This allegation is disproved, in the opinion of j^our Committee, by the evidence, not only of trustworthy officials, experienced in the condition of those places, but .also by that of persons unconnected with the administration of the system who have watched closely its effect. The evidence as to Aldershot, the largest military centre, showed that when the Acts first came into operation, clandestine prosititution was conmion in its neighbourhood, and that since then, both in the opinion of the residents, and in that of the experienced physician in charge of the Lock Hospital, it has largely decreased. In Plymouth, Devonport, Woolwich, Deal, Cork, and other districts, which may i)e regarded as typical subjected stations, it has been proved to your Committee that a similar decrease has taken place, and a consideration of the scope of the Acts show that their general tendency is to diminish clandestine, as well as open, prostitution. Your Committee wish to call special attention to the evidence on this subject as to Cork, one of the Irish sub- jected stations. A general assertion of the increase of clandestine prostitution amongst a class of sirls of respectable position in that district was made by one of the witnesses, who founded his opinion on,«mongst other things, the alleged admission of members of the constabulary engaged in administering the Act in Cork. It was met in the first place by denials from each of the constables so emjdoyed that he had made such an admission ; in the second place, by clear testimony that clandestine prostitution had not increased, given by clergymen intimately acquainted with the condition of the town, and by the surgeon of the Lock Hospital, who had special opportunities for knowing the real state of things; and, thirdly, by the fact that illegitimate births, which are an ordinary result of extensive clandestine prostitution, had become far fewer than in former times, and that attempts to procure abortion, an equally clear index of this form of vice, were quite exceptional. The deterrent influence of the Acts tends to restrain persons who are not committed to a life of prostitution, public or clandestine, from entering on it, and exposing themselves to the supervision of the police. "Women are thus deterred, or if not deterred, rescued at an early siage of vice from that more private kind oi' prostitution, which they resort to before going regularly on the streets. In this way the Acts of necessity cut off' one great source of clandestine prostitution. Again, the police diminish the tendency to clandestine prostitution by seeking out and warning women whom they find likely to enter such a career, and by giving information to their relatives, a subject which will be hereafter more fully considered. Of course, the desire to escape registration will lead prostitutes who consort with the richer classes of men to practice increased secrecy, in order to escape the notice SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Iv notice of the police. There is no doubt that some women who in the subjected districts before the Acts would have practised ^prostitution openly, now endeavoui', and in com- paratively few cases with siiccess, to carry on their trade in private. But your Committee are of opinion that owing to the vigilant administration of the police, this does not take place to any great extent, and that on the whole the deterrent effect of the Acts, and their judicious administration, have diminished the number of clandestine, as well as public prostitutes. "Advantages (OTHER than Hygienic) conferred by the Acts. " 65. On the other hand the advocates of the Acts claim for them that they have, — "(1.) Diminished prostitution in subjected districts. "(2.) Almost entirely suppressed juvenile prostitution. " (3.) Rescued fallen women from the frightful state of filth and disease in which they had previously lived, and thus placed them under conditions in which they for the first time become amenable to humanizing and reforming influences. " (4.) Contributed to promote public order and decency in the districts in which they are in force. "66. (I.) There can be no doubt that in the subjected districts the number both of prostitutes and brotliels has, since the Acts, largely decreased. On this point your Com- mittee would refer to the evidence given by the E.ev. Prebendary Wilkinson, by Mr. "W. Luscombe, and Inspector Annis as to Plymouth, Devonport, and Stonehouse; by the B,ev. H. Eeid, the Eev. T. O'Reilly, the Rev. Canon Hegarty, and Mr. Curtis as to Cork; by the Rev. E. P. Grant as to Portsmouth ; by the Rev. T. TufEeld as to Woolwich; by Mr. Adam Stigent as to Chatham, and by Mr. Piddock as to Deal, as well as to the returns published under Captain Harris's dii-ection. Indeed this diminution has been admitted by the opponents of the Acts, though they attribute it to other causes. But without pushing the argument pust hoc ergu propter hue too far, your Committee feel that they are justified not only by a comparison between the condition of the subjected districts before and after the Acts, but by a comparison between the present condition of these districts and that of other large towns, in setting down a main portion of these good effects to the credit of the Acts. " 67. The various witnesses who have been examined on behalf of the Acts account for this diminution in three ways : " (a.) By the deterrent effect of the Acts in preventing many women, especially young girls on the border-land, as it has been called, between levity and immorality, from embarking in a career of vice. This question was partially discussed in the paragraphs dealing with clandestine prostitution, and will be further considered when the question of the decrease of juvenile prostitution is discussed. " (b.) By the excellent spiritual and moral influences brought to bear on the women while in hospital, and the successful efforts made by the superintendents and chaplains of these hospitals to place them in the way of obtaining a decent and respectable livelihood after their discharge. " (c.) By the intimate knowledge which the police charged with the administration of the Acts obtain, both of the houses of ill-fame in their districts, and of the inmates of such houses, and the consequent opportunities which they have of suppressing the one, and of tracing, and, in many cases, reclaiming the other. " 68. Your Committee think that all these three agencies have been proved to be instrumental in producing the beneficial results above referred to. " (a.) That the Acts should exercise a deterrent effect upon women, a point strongly insisted upon by every witness called in defence of the system, seems almost self-evident. The point was virtually admitted by some of the witnesses on the other side who spoke of prostitutes as removing from the subjected to the unsubjected districts for the purpose of escaping the yoke of the police. Indeed, it would seem that the more irksome that yoke was, the stronger would be the deterrent influences of the Acts. "(i.) Your Committee are satisfied, on the evidence placed before them, that the moral and religious influences brought to bear in the certified hospitals are largely productive of reclamation. Some witnesses spoke of the registered women who became patients as Barr, 1512. 1514. altogether hardened and unwilling to submit to good influences. The Rev. Flavel Cook, 1999 ef«e?. Chaplain of the London Lock Hospital, is of this opinion. But his views were contro- 5937^°;' j^^ ' " verted by Mr. Seaton Carr, Vice-chairman of the Hospital, who was able to point to a Eeid, 6l83'e<.sej. large number of registered women, patients in the institution, who were reclaimed through Anniss, 3686 et st its agency. Your Committee desires to call special attention to the statements on this subject of Miss Webb, the Lady Superintendent of the Chatham Lock Hospital, and to the numerous testimonies which she produced as to the good effects of hospital detention upon the women under her charge, and the success of her efforts to bring them back to a virtuous and respectable life. " It has been said that the beneficial results above referred to are only the indirect con- sequences of the Acts. This argument is disposed of by the 12th section of the Act of 0.75. h4 1866, Ivi i>kocei:dixgs of tiik Barr, I;!(i(l et aeq. Annifs, 4173 et seij. TuffielJ, 433S et seq. Grant, 02()f! ct xeq. ,0348 etscq. 3364 ei seq. Stiffant, o4G7 et naj. Reed, 0143 et seg. Luscombe, 10327. 1866, iind as a large portion of llic -women reclaimed woulil, but for the system crcatctl by the Acts, never have been subjected to the influences in (jucstion, it is only fair to credit that system with these results. On the otlier hand, it is contended that the examination lijirdens the prostitute in vice and shamelessness. The evidence given in this direction has been, in the (.pinion of your Committee, overborne in the first place by the evidence of opinions to the contrary held not only by respectable ofHcials connected witii the administration of the Acts, but also by clergymen and other benevolent persons who have watched the operation of the system and utilised it for reclamation. Again, the number of reclamations which take place among women who have been placed on the register is, in itself, a ju-oof that the examination system has not the deterioratin;;' cti'ect attributed to it. In connection with this subject, it is to be borne in mind that the examination is conducted with a scruj)ulous decency, and tliat when disease is discovered, its cure is acconi]ianied by moral and religious efforts to effect conversion. These facts are calcuhited not to harden the registered women, but to assure them that the State is still hopeful and desirous of their return to a decent life. " (c.) Your Conmiittcc cannot lay sufficient stress on the means which these Acts afford the police charged with their administration for tracking out the keepers of brothels, and for following and rescuing the unhappy women who have been enticed into them, and who, there is too much reason to believe, are often detained in them against their will. Such a practice (which INIr. Lownes, the eminent surgeon, of Liverpool, believes to be very connnon) could hardly be carried on in the subjected districts, where the police know every brothel and inmate of a brothel in the place. The result is that to smuggle away girls into houses of ill-fame, and inuunre them there against their will, becomes practically impossible. Indeed, it is a very general practice in these districts for the jjarents of girls who have been decoyed, or have run away from homCj to apply to the police charged with administering the Acts for information respecting their missing daughters, and when this is done, only a very few hours usually elapse before the girl is found and restored to her relatives. Several instances of this kind were mentioned to your Committee by Inspector Anniss and other witnesses. " 69. In the same way, these police being, from their occupation and duties, necessarily made acquainted with the brothels in their district, are enabled to use the machinery of the law and other agencies for the purpose of suppi'essing them. Inspector Anniss has, in his evidence, detailed the various ways in which this has been eff^ected in Plymouth and the adjoinmg district, and the Rev. H. Eeid (Answer 6213) and the Ilev. Canon Hegarty (Answer 11006 lice, which administers the Acts, have shown, since the introduction of the system, acf)utinuous and great decrease in the number of juvenile prostitutes in the subjected districts, 'fhis evidence is borne out by the testimony of persons well acquainted with the condition of many of those places. As juvenile prostitution is the principal source by which the supply of fallen women is kept up, it is evident that the Acts, in diminishing the number of youthful prostitutes, are operating effectually to diminish the number of adult women abandoned to an evil life. Many cases were detailed to your Committee in which yoiuig girls who were either on the point of falling, or had already fallen, were rescued by the intervention of the metropolitan police, and restored to their families. But cases of this kind are few in comparison M'ith the numerous class in which the deterrent influence of the Acts frightens young girls from vice. It is to be remarked that while a constant decrease in juvenile prostitution has gone on in the subjected districts, the Committee of the House of Lords appointed to consider the subject and other kindred topics in 1881, states in its Report, dated 10 July 1882, that 'juvenile prostitution, from an almost incredible early age, exists to an appalling extent in England generally, and especially in London.' 'i heir Lordships attribute its prevalence mainly to certain specified causes. Every one of these causes has been proved to your Committee to be vigorously and effectively counteracted by the administration of the Contagious Diseases Acts, so that the alleged reduction of juvenile prostitution in the subjected districts, is borne out by the fact that the influences stated by the Committee of the House of Lords to be its principal source are deprived of much of their strength, whereon the administration of the Acts is brought to bear against them. " 71. The causes referred to are : — " 1. The want of parental control. This is remedied by the information which the police give parents as to the dangers of their daughters, and by the authority which the police exert for the reclamation of young girls. " 2. Kesidence SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ivii " 2. Residence in brothels. As shown hereafter, it has been proved to your Com- mittee that the police exert their power with excellent effect to prevent brothel- keepers from harbouring young girls. " 3. The example and encouragement given by girls slightly older. The deterrent influence of the system acts effectually against the temptation. " 4. The state of the streets " in which little girls are allowed to run about and become accustomed to the sight of open profligacy." " 72. It is not disputed that the Acts have much improved the condition of the streets, and repressed public disorder and indecency among fallen women, thus removing much of the bad example which was formerly to be seen in subjected districts. " 73. (3.) Upon the third point raised by the advocates of the system, there seems scarcely room for serious doubt. Before the passing of the Acts women of this class were sunk in a state of disease and misery which baffles description. They are represented as living "like wild beasts," in woods and in drains, without shelter, and almost without clothing, and without the slightest regard to, or conception of, ordinary decency. To speak of persons in such a bodily plight, as capable of moral reclamation, would seem little short of an absurdity ; and it is clear that, so far as the Acts have tended to improve the jihysical state of fallen women, and of this fact your Committee have had abundant proofs, they must of necessity have helped to place them under conditions in which their moral reclamation becomes, for the first time, possible. "74. (4.) That the subjected districts have since the passing of the Acts greatly im- proved in point of outward order and decency, is denied by very few even of the opponents of the Acts. It is possibly to this fact that the steady decline of the popular agitation against the system in these districts, as its ojjeration came to be better known and under- stood, is to be attributed. Your Committee cannot doubt that the great majority of the more intelligent and respectable classes in these districts would be strongly opposed to the repeal of the Acts, a circumstance to which, in their judgment, sufficient importance has not yet been attached. Indeed, it may be stated generally that the strength of the opposition to them in each locality is proportioned to its distance from the places where they are in operation. It may be added that a very large proportion of the witnesses called by the opponents of the Acts admitted either that they had never visited those places, or that they were very imperfectly acquainted with them. " 75. Several of these witnesses, while admitting that the improvement above referred to had taken place in these districts, maintained that the same results might be, and even were, obtained in other places by the vigorous enforcement of ordinary police regulations. The case of Glasgow was especially relied upon as showing that without the exceptional legislation of the Acts prostitution might be greatly diminished, and order and decency established in a lage town, simply by means of stringent police regulations vigorously enforced by the local authorities. But assuming all these assertions to be true, your Committee doubt whether the rigid police interference, by wliich it is stated that such good results have been obtained in Glasgow (which, it may be remarked, is not a great military station), would be tolerated in the large towns of England or Ireland. Indeed the social conditions of the great centres of population in the United Kingdom vary so much that it would be unsafe to predict that local regulations for the suppression of vice which have proved effective in one town would be equally successful in another. With regard to the assertion that the gradual improvement in general morality may safely be trusted to lessen and exterminate this great social evil, your Committee would only refer to the evidence of Mr. iMacnamara, of Dublin, and Mr. Lowndes, of Liverpool, as to the prevalence of vice and disease in those cities at the present moment. " Recojimendations. " 76. Your Committee having thus reviewed the various arguments which have been urged against and for the Acts, and dissected the evidence by which those arguments have been stipported, now proceed to consider the several questions specially referred to them, viz., whether the Acts should be repealed, extended, or maintained, and if so, with any and what amendments. " I. — Should the Acts be Repealed ? " 77. Before dealing with this question, your Committee would draw attention to a passage in the Report of the Royal Commission, in which, after attributing to the Acts most of the good results which, in the opinion of your Committee, may be traced to them, they say, paragraph 43 of Report, " If such results have been attained, either wholly or partially, through the operation of the Acts, those who demand their absolute repeal are bound to show that they have produced evils to counterbalance the good which, after all reasonable deductions have been made, may be fairly attributable to them." Your Com- mittee desire emphatically to endorse this opinion. " 78. But, apart from this consideration, it is most important that Parliament and the country should clearly understand what the slmj^le and absolute repeal of the Acts, 0.75. i including Iviii ruOCEEDINGS OF THE including the abolition of police surveillance and of State-aided Lock Hospitals would mean in districts wlierc they have been in operation for 13 years and more, — " It would mean — "(I.) Full license for vencral disease of all kinds, to dissouiinate itself unchecked, either by police control, or by hospital treatment. " (b.) A serious diminution in tlie efFectivc strengtii of our army and navy, which would be especially felt in the event of tiieir services being suddenly called into requisition. " (c.) The relegation of iiumbers of these unhappy women to the state of hopeless misery, squalor, and disease, in whicii tliey lived before the system was introduced. " {d.) Tiie letting loose of increased crowds of abandoned and diseased women and girls of all ages upon streets and tliorougiifares swai-ming with soldiers and sailors, with little or no practical check or control over their behaviour. " 79. It is scarcely surprising that such a prospect should excite feelings of dismay iu minds of the more intelligent and thoughtfLd inhabitants of subjected districts. "80. Your Committee are aware that it is urged by tiie opponents of the system that if the Acts were repealed Lock Hospitals would spring up in the subjected districts, supported by voluntary contributions, which, it is assumed, woukl then flow in in sufficient abundance to take tlic jilaee of State aid. Your Committee believe this pre- diction to be perfectly illusory. The reluctance of the public to subscribe to hospitals for the cure of venereal diseases is well known, and has been abundantly illustrated in the course of this inquiry. Your Committee can place no reliance on a bare assertion, which is contradicted by past experience. Hanson, Ant. 6136. "81. The Other argument that the last 12 or 1-1 years have produced such a change ^^^^' for the better in the moral and sanitary condition of tiie subjected districts, tliat they have ceased to stand in need of exceptional legislation, is directly opposed to the whole gist of the arguments dii-ected against the Acts. "82. For these reasons your Committee cannot recommend the repeal of the Acts. " IL — Should the Acts be Extended ? " 83. The hygienic and other benefits conferred by the Acts in their present narrow application appear to your Committee to warrant the belief that if extended to the United Kingdom generally they would become still more effective for the diminution of venereal disease, and for other beneficial purposes. Diseased persons coming from unsubjected to subjected districts interfere with the efficiency of the Acts in the latter. If the system were generally applied, this element of weakness would be diminished, and the whole country would be served to a greater extent than the best administered subjected district can be at this moment. It would be imreasonable to predict the extirpation of venereal diseases, because they would continue to be imported from foreign countries, or to elude in a certain number of cases the vigilance of the administration. Allowance being made for these elements of danger, your Committee are of opinion that if practical results were alone to be considered, the Acts might be extended with excellent effect. But the results of the Acts are not the only questions which demand the attention of the Legislature. However intrinsically useful any system may be, it is often unwise hastily to press its extension while any considerable body of opinion, even though tliat of a minority, con- demns it. There is no doubt that although the Acts on the whole, approved of in the subjected districts, large numbers of persons in various parts of the country whose con- victions are entitled to respect, object to them. Many of the opponents rest their hostility on religious grounds. This is especially observable with regard to several important Nonconformist bodies, which have protested in their corporate or 9?/«.si-corporate capacity against the system. It is true that to a large extent the agitation against the Acts appears to your Committee to have arisen and been promoted among classes and jiersons who have had no opportunity of seeing their practical working, and who have mistaken the objects at whicli tiie system aims. But making allowance for this, your Committee cannot, having regard to the cliaracter rather than to the extent, of opinion hostile to the Acts, at present recommend their extension. " 84. It has been argued that a recommendation of repeal ought, logically, to be the consequence of a refusal to recommend extension. Your Committee cannot accept this view. The sole ground on which your Committee dechne to recommend extension is that the public opinion of a part of the community, which it would be unwise and unjust to neglect, is unprepared for sucli a step. But this does not apply to the districts where the system is in operation. There the Acts are, on the whole, approved of, and their repeal would be a subject of regret. Besides, whUe it seems to your Committee to be the duty of Parliament to abstain from any step calculated to wound the conscientious religious convictions of any considerable body of people, it would be unfair to soldiers and sailors, and unwise from the point of view of the efficiency of the service to abolish a system which in localities favourable to its maintenance has been found effective for rescuing men of both services from diseases to which they are especially exposed by the prevalence of celibacy and the habits and temptations of their career. III. — Should SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. lix "III. — Should the Acts be Amended. " 85. In considering this question, the three main features of the system are to be borne in mind. They are, — "(1.) Registration and Police Supervision. " f 2.) Periodical Examination. " (3.) Detention in Hospital. "(1). Registration and Supervision. — Registration in some form and the supervision which follows it, are necessary if public women are to be placed under any kind of supervision for hygienic purposes. Without them no system could work with regularity. Your Committee cannot, therefore, recommend their abolition. The method of registra- tion in force under the Acts apj^ears to be free from defects. The registration takes place after and in consequence of the voluntary submission to examination, or the judgment of the magistrate rendering the prostitute liai)le thereto. It has been said that the system tends to the unfair procurement of registration, because, it is alleged, the so-called voluntary submission is obtained by compulsion. It is quite true that prostitutes would be glad to escape the operation of the Acts if they could, and in this sense their submis- sion is not voluntary. But this is not the sense in which the Legislature meant the words * voluntary submission ' to be used. The Act of 1866 gives a woman alleged to be a subject for its application the choice of two courses, to submit to examination, or to appear before a magistrate and have his decision on the charge of prostitution made against her. Her adoption of the former course is called ' voluntary submission' because it excludes the element of magisterial compulsion. Your Committee are satisfied that the police before taking the voluntary submission, explain the meaning of the step, and inform the women that the alternative of attending before a magistrate is open to them. It has been said that the fact of being on the register throws difficulties in the way of women who, being converted, seek employment. Your Committee are satisfied that in theory the regulations afi^ord women every facility for the removal of their names ; that in practice the police habitually, without requiring any formal application, remove from the register the names of those women who give up a life of prostitution, and finally that in many cases they and the Lock Hospital authorities exert themselves to obtain for such women shelter or employment in order to secure them against the temptation to relapse. Under all these circumstances your Committee does not recommend any alteration in the system of registration and supervision. "(2.) Periodical Examination. — The opposition to the Acts assails the whole principle of sanitary supervision of prostitutes by the State, but beyond doubt the periodical examination is the feature of the Acts that has caused most offence, and has been especially selected for attack. Your Committee are of opinion that if abandoned women could be induced by any method to submit themselves to medical supervision and care, it would be unjust and unwise to continue the system of compulsory periodical examina- tion. But while the medical witnesses who support the Acts and understand their administration assert that the proceeds is necessary, the opponents, when asked to suggest any other means by which prostitutes in subjected districts could be induced to submit themselves with regularity and promptness to the supervision and treatment necessary for their health, have failed to so. If any such means could be devised and brought into operation, your Committee would not hesitate to recommed the abolition of compulsory periodical examination. No such means being shown to exist, they recommend its maintenance. The Royal Commission of 1870 recommended the abolition of periodical examinations, and the resumption of the main provisions of the Act of 1864. This Statute, while not insisting on periodical examination, subjected to compulsory exami- nation prostitutes reasonably suspected of being infected with venereal disease. It appears to your Committee that the principles of the objections taken to the examination, under the Act of 1866, apply equally the Act of 1864, and that while the course recommended by the Hoyal Commission would deprive the system of its chief means of detecting- disease and preventing its diffusion, it would not satisfy the opponents of the system. It would be rejected as a half measure, and would lead to renewed agitation. Your Com- mittee for these reasons cannot assent to the recommendation of the Royal Commission of 1870, that the main principles of the Act of 1864 should be substituted for the periodical examinations required by the Act of 1866. " (3.) Detention in Hospital. — Your Committee consider that compulsory detention in hospital is absolutely necessary for the effectual cure of disease, and they recommend its maintenance under the restrictions and regulations at present in force. " Additional Recommendations. "86 — (1). Your Committee recommended the institution, in some of the unsubjected districts, of female Lock hospitals supported by State aid, and by such charitable contri- butions as may be obtained, to which entrance shall be voluntary. Unsubjected stations, in which veneral diseases are at present most prevalent among soldiers and saUors, should 0.75. i 2 be Ix rUOCEEDINGS OF THE be selected for tliis purpose. The adoj)tiou of tliis course would afford an opportunity for testing the value of tiie opinion so freely expressed by the oj)ponents of the Acts, that an ade(iuate system of voluntary treatment would be eflicacious from a hygienic point of view. "(2.) Your Committee further recommend that additional and more absolute jiowers should be given to the jiolice within subjected districts and elsewhere, to enter houses of ill-fame for the purpose of taking steps to diminisii prostitution and its attendant evils. " (3.) Your Committee further recommend that powers analogous to that given by Act of 25 Geo. 2, c. 36, s. 5, to iuiuseliolders, to institute proceedings for the prosecution of brothel-keepers, should be given to the police. " 87. Your Committee consider that the following Recommendations made by the Com- mittee of the House of Lords whicii considered the subject of juvenile prostitution, and reported on the 10th July 1882, would help to diminish tlie evils against which the Acts are aimed, resulting from prostitution, and they therefore recommend their adoption. " (4.) That the age up to which it shall be an offence to have or attempt to have carnal knowledge of, or to indecently assault a girl, be raised from 13 to 16. "(5.) That the age of unlawful abdfiction (24 & 25 Vict. c. 100, s. 55), with intent to have carnal knowledge unlawfully, be raised from 16 to 21. " (6.) That it shall be a misdemeanour for any person to receive into any house or into or on to any premises occupied or j)0ssessed by him or of which he has the management or control, any girl under the age of 16 years for the purpose of her having unlawful sexual intercourse with any person, whether such intercourse is intended witli any jjarti- cuiar man or generally. "(7.) Tliat a police magistrate shall have power, on application of a police inspector, and on his affidavit that he has reason to believe that some girl has been so received and is then in such liouse or premises, to grant a warrant to such inspector to seach the house or premises, and to bring before him any person offending as aforesaid, and also the girl, and if the magistrate shall commit any person for trial for such offence, he may also bind over the girl to appear as a witness on such trial. ", " (8.) That the soliciting of prostitution in the public streets be made an offence, and the police authorised to act accordingly, without proof that it is done ' to the annoyance of iniiabitants or passengers.' " (9.) That the police be authorised to make applications under the Industrial Schools Amendment Act, 1880, as to the children therein mentioned, and that any magistrate before whom a girl under the age of 16 is convicted of soliciting prostitution may, if it shall ajjpear that she has no friends able to provide a suitable home for her, remit her to a refuge or industrial home until she attains the age of 16." DRAFT REPORT, proposed by Mr. Stansfeld, read the first time, as follows : — Mil]. March 21, " The evidence taken by your Committee has been limited to the operation of the Acts in the United Kingdom, the Committee having determined not to receive evidence as to British Colonies or other countries. Such evidence has been mainly directed, in the first place, to the consideration of venereal disease among the forces composing the home army, and of certain sections of such forces ; and also among the women afi'ectcd by this legislation. In the second place, the social and personal condition of the subjected women ; and also the method and results of the administration of the Acts by the several classes of officials engaged therein, have been investigated, " The voluminous evidence taken by the Committee may be conveniently considered, with reference to the principal subjects, as follows: — " I. As to Venereal Disease in the Home Army. " II. As to Venereal Disease among Prostitutes in the places to which the Acts apply. " III. As to certain alleged social improvements claimed by advocates of the Acts as the beneficial efl'ects of their administration. " IV. As to certain evil consequences alleged to have resulted from the operation of the Acts, and other objections to this legislation. " I. — As TO Veneueal Disease in the Home Army. " 1. The official Returns which furnish the statistical evidence on this subject comprise a total period of 19 years — i.e., from 1860 to 1878, inclusive. Of this period the first seven years (1860-1866) may be considered as anterior to the existing legislation. The first Act prescribing the periodical medical examination, although passed in June 1866, came SELECT COMMITTEE OH COWtXQlQVS, MSEASES ACTS. Ixl came into operation at a few stations only to^yards the end of that year. Tlie remainder of the total period, i.e., 1867 — 1878, comprises two equal terms of six years each, viz. : 1867 — 1872, and 1873 — 1878. In the former of these periods the Acts were applied successively to the ' protected ' stations, in all of which they were in full operation early in the year 1870. During the latter period, i.e., 1873 — 1878, the Begulation (generally known as Lord CardwelFs Order) stopping the pay of soldiers in hospital for venereal disease (except secondary syphilis) was in force, with the result of induced concealment Ev. i879: 09-70, and of disease; a fact which is acknowledged by both Sir William Muir and Mr. Lawson to Ap. 1679, No. i, p. 156, vitiate the Returns for such period. Consequently the period of application and operation £^_ \g~Q . 455^ of the Acts, i.e., 1867 — 1872, is the only one which can fairly be compared with the period preceding the Acts, 1860 — 1866, for the purpose of ascertaining what effect on venereal disease may have been produced by those means among the protected forces. " The Returns originally adduced by Sir William JNluir purported to show the results App. 179. of the Acts, by ' contrasting' the ratios of disense at the 14 Military Stations which were successively brought 'under the Acts' with those at 14 selected stations 'not under the Acts,' during the entire period 1860 — 1878. Mr. Lawson also adopted those Returns as Ev. I88I : 209ti. the basis of his original calculations given in evidence in the Session of 1879. Strong objections to the method of those Returns were, however, made, f)rincipally by Dr. Nevins, Ev. isso: 109, no. Avho contended that they presented an ' entirely fallacious comparison for statistical purposes,' for these reasons — first, that the respective cliaracters of the two classes of Stations were essentially different; and, second, that the given unsubjected Stations were unfairl)' selected, many having exceptionally high ratios of disease, while the majority of jiv. 131 to 144. the unsubjected stations with little disease in the aggregate was left out of the comparison. In fact, the 14 Military Stations brought 'under the Acts' are large camps, dockyards, and arsenals, some of them having only a ' small fringe' of civil population ; on the other hand, the stations ' not under the Acts,' in number about 100, comprise the largest cities (i.e., London, Dublin, Manchester, &c. ), in which comparatively small bodies of soldiers £,,_ iggj . 1645-8. are placed amidst dense populations, and wherein the ratios of disease are exceptionally high, as well as small garrison places, in which there is often no such disease at all; e.c/., 1879, App. i,p. 155. in 1878 the ratio of admissions for primary venereal sores in London was 250 per 1,000 ^"'^°' of force, while 'no admissions' for this (primai-y) disease were returned at 31 stations ona Table p i56 Ev having an aggregate annual strength of 2,141 men. is79: 905, and issi,' " In deference to these objections Mr. Lawson furnished, in 1881, new tables compiled 1253-4. from further returns supplied by Sir William Muir in 1880, and showing the ratios of ^PP- 1 8: 2, 188I. disease respectively at ' stations which came under the Acts,' and at ' all stations never ^^^' "^' ^^®°' under the Acts ' during the entire period 1860 — 1878. Although these new tables are in the same form as the original returns, ' contrastincr the results ' at the jiiven two sets ., ,„„, „,,„ r • nr T I'liiTi -111 r-i ^^' 1""1 • *148, 01 stations, Mr. Lawson explamed that he did not intend thereby to ' compare one [setj 2156-7. with the other for the purpose of the Acts,' and added, ' I never have done so.' This ■witness acknowledged that the new tables aave lower rates of disease in the unsubjected ev. 1358-9. stations than the original tables, and were therefore not so advantageous as evidence in favour of the Acts. " An additional objection to the original retui-ns was also raised to the effect that they ^^ jg^g. jq^, showed only the average annual strength of force at the several stations which were successively brought under the Acts, instead of the actual forces for the time being under the ' protection ' of the Acts. In consequence of this criticism a further Return was £y |ggj . j^Qg ^^ furnished by Sir William Muir, which forms Appendix No. 2 to the Minutes of Evidence, I6II. 1881. On comparing this return, however, with the other official statistics, serious discrepancies between them became apparent, which were admitted by Mr. Lawson. „ ,„„, ,„„, ^ y..-*- 1 r *!• r • 1 • T* » * ly^l ■ lyol to It IS important, theretore, to notice the circumstance as iurnishing a preliminary caution 19S5. in dealing with the statistical evidence. " 2. The classification of venereal diseases adopted in the official statistics is the following : — " iji) Primary Venereal Sores. " (b) Secondary Syphilis. " (c) Gonorrhoja. " The Returns also comprise an aggregate heading : — " (rf) All forms of Venereal Disease combined. "3. (a) Primary Sores. — The official evidence includes under the term ' primary sores' venereal cases which cannot be classed under either of the other distinctive heads. This class, therefore, comprises cases of true primary syphilis which subsequently develope ' secondary ' symptoms, as well as cases of a non-syphilitic character, which have no secondary or constitutional consequences. The former species form about one-third of Ev. 1879 : 308-10. the whole class. It is objected to this method of classification, by the medical witnesses sus. on behalf of repeal, that it is both unscientific and misleading, inasmuch as it does not Ev. I88I :_36-5i. 339. distinguish the cases of true syphilis (chancres) from those cases of local sores ■s'hich are tm',^!?T^'i .'?i?°~ 1 •!• • • 1 .. / 1 * T \ T, • 1 • Ml • (' 1UU4. 1135-lIcO. not syphilitic m character (chancroids), it is consequently impossible to ascertain from the official statistics with the requisite exactness, the history of the course of true syjjhilis, even in its primary stage, among the forces ' protected ' by the Acts. The authorities quoted ^^_ jggj . 354_3g5_ by the objectors to the official classification, leaves no doubt that the two different knds S36-843. 987-92. of sore comprised in the one class are now generally regarded by the medical profession ^"O-- 0.75. i 3 at Ixii PEOCEKDINGS OF THE Ev. 1879: Ev, 1881 Ev. 1061 : Ev. 1879 : Ev. 1881 : 2341-4. Ev. 1881 : VG6-870. 2G11. 2330. 19S7. 1602. 783. 314. 1497-1500. ; 632-834. 1630. App. 1881, No. 1. at large as the respective products of two distinct kinds of virus ; and this theory or doctrine of tlie ' duality ' of this disease may therefore be assumed to have superseded the opinion formerly held as to the ' unity ' of tiie poison, which might produce either form of sore according to determining circumstances. Two of the official witnesses, however, defended the ' unity ' tlieory, but Mr. Lawson thought that ' the evidence is rather in favour of duality,' and he was ' inclined to admit' the doctrine. The result of the evidence on this point may therefore be taken to be, that the two kinds of sore are essentially different in their nature and consequences, and that onlv those which are syphilitic, and capable of being followed by secondary symptoms affecting the constitu- tion, can ])ropcrly be termed ' j)rimary ' sores. It is evident therefore that the term ' primary ' should be applied only to the cases of true syphilis in its first stage, and that some other and more appropriate term (such as ' local venereal sore,' as used by Pro- fessor Lee) should be adoj)ted to describe the non-syphilitic species. It appears indeed that it was at one time the practice in making out the Army Hospital Returns to classify venereal sores under the two distinct headings (1) ' Primary Syphilis,' and (2) ' Local Venereal Ulcer;' but that jiractice seems to have been sui)erseded by the form of return at present in use. The only reason for this alteration by the Army Medical Department is an alleged difliculty in accurately diagnosing some sores (such as those of compound character termed by Professor Lee ' mixed chancres ') upon the admission of the patients to hospital — but it appears that a correct classification is undoubtedly practicable in every case within a short period after admission. If therefore it were necessary, for the pur- pose of the regular weekly returns, to group originally all venereal sores in the manner at present adopted, it is manifest that more accurate classification might have been made in subsequent Keturns which would have enabled the Department to give a correctly classified summary in each annual report. " 4. The actual returns, however, show the following annual ratios of admissions to hospitals for ' Priwary Venereal Sores' per 1,000 of average strength, in the two groups of stations, viz,, ' Protected, and all the remaining " Unjirotected Stations," ' during the entire period, 1860—1878 :— Stations All Stations which came never under Acts. under Acts. Years. Ratios per Ratios per 1,000. 1,000. 1860 146 132 1861 142 122 1862 117 99 1863 ) Before Existing Acts - . - ' - 107 108 1864 102 101 1865 95 90 . 1866 87 84 1867 ■ Gradual Application of Acts* - r 91 83 ^ 66 101 18C8 95 1869 100 1870 55 61 54 . 93 1871 1872 Complete Application of Acts - 81 90 1873 50 81 1874 ' Concealment of Disease ^ - - 42 66 1875 ' 35 59 1876 1877 { Lord Cardwell's Order ... 33 35 64 08 1S7S [ Reserves Called Out - - . - 40 88 * The Acts were applied successively to the several Stations at different dates, between 8th October 1866 and 21st January 1870. " It appears from these figures that during the period preceding the existing legis- lation (1860 — 66), the amount of so-called ' primary ' disease declined regularly and conttnuously in the stations subsequently subjected to the Acts, while in the never subjected stations collectively, a final reduction was effected after considerable inter- mediate fluctuations. These figures are imjjortant as evidence that quite anterior to the operation of the Acts, some cause, or causes, produced a reduction in this combined class of" venereal diseases, in both groups or sets of stations; but while the fall in the after- wards subjected stations was continuous and regular, that in the non-subjected stations was SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixiii was fluctuating and irregular, besides beino; less in degree. An essential difference in »?„ laan.oo character between the two sets oi stations is thus indicated at the outset, and prior to legislative interference. It should be observed that during this period, 1860 — 66, Windsor ev. I88i : i258 1259 is not included in the ' subjected ' stations, for the reason that the returns for that and Note App. p.' 447. ' station during this period are not se}iarable from London, and it is therefore included with Lnndon in the ' unsubjected ' group. In 1867 and subsequently, however, Windsor is properly comprised in the group of ' subjected ' stations, a fact which probably accounts for the sudden ''apparent increase of ratios in that group from 87 (in 1866) to 91 (in 1867). So far therefore as any proper comparison can be made between the two entire groups of stations in respect of venereal sores, it obviously commences with the year 1867, when the respective ratios of admissions were, in the 'subjected' group, 91, and in the ' unsubjected ' group, 101 per 1,000 offeree respectively. " In the succeeding period (z.e., 1867-1872), which witnessed the gi-adual application of the Acts, and their complete operation in the 'subjected' stations, before Lord Card- well's Order was made, there was a further reduction of disease, both regular and con- tinuous (until the last year of the series), in the ' subjected ' stations, contemporaneously Ev. 15S0. with an ultimate fall, after intermediate fluctuations, in the 'unsubjected' districts. It Dr. Nevins's Table and is to be observed, however, that while the reduction during this period in the ' subjected ' jt.'^^i^^icing). ' districts is approximately a continuation of the average diminution throughout the pre- Et. I88O: 07-107. vious period, the contemporaneous improvement ultimately effected in the non-subjected stations is less than in the former period before the Acts. "In the flnal period (1873-78), the same respective characteristics are observable, although, as before seen, the effect oi Lord Cardwell's Order renders the flgures unre- liable. The general increase of disease in the last year (1878) was consequent on the ev. 1879: 84-5. calling out of the Eeserve Forces, the rise being greater in the unsubjected stations. i)37-8. "A diagram, furnished by Mr. Lawson, illustrates the flgures given in the Keturns, ^pp. 188I, facing p. and shows that in the period before the Acts {i.e., 1860-1866) the course of 'primary 446. sores' in the two groups of stations was practically parallel duriog the years 1860-62, and about identical in the following years 1863-66. In the period of successive applica- tion of the Acts, 1867-1869, inclusive, marked divergencies occur, and the unsubjected stations, which originally held the lower place, are thereafter represented by the upper line. These divergencies, therefore, exactly synchronised with the successive steps of legislation, and they individually denote a sudden rise in disease in the free stations, contemporaneously with a fall in the subjected stations, which fall was, on the averao-e, a continuation of the pre-existing reduction' throughout the period before the Acts, as App. i8so. calculated by Dr. Nevins. But during the flnal period of com])lete operation of the Acts ^o. 1, p. 47. (Table) (1870-1877, excluding 1878 as abnormal) the respective courses of disease continued =««1 diagram, p. 54. parallel in both groups. This yields a comjDai'ative advantage to the subjected stations represented by the lower line of ratios. "The retiu-n of the 'number of men in hospital daily' for 'primary sores' (also Ev. I88I. App. 2. presented by Mr- Lawson), affords generally the same conclusions, viz., that although an ultimate reduction in the amount of such disease has been effected in both sets of stations upon the average, the fall in the subjected districts has been, on the whole, uniformly regular and continuous throughout the entire period, 1860-1877 (excluding 1878), while the diminution in the unsubjected districts has been accomplished by reductions more irreuular and intermittent in character, as well as less in amount, j^articularJydurino- the period of the gradual application of the Acts to the Subjected stations. In that important epoch (1867 — 1869, inclusive), the flgures of the 'constantly sick' show, like the return of ' admissions.' a sudden increase of disease in the unsubjected districts, con- temporaneously with a continuance in the subjected districts of the original fall, which up to 1866 was common to both sets of stations. Again, during the period of complete application, 1870-1877 (^excluding 1878 as before), the figures show a reduction in both classes of stations, which is approximately parallel. " The two returns, therefore, of the ' admissions ' and the ' constantly sick,' agree in demonstrating these results as to 'primary sores,' viz. (1), that the reduction of this disease which has been effected in the subjected stations since the Acts were applied thereto has not exceeded the diminution in the same stations before the application of the Acts ; and (2), that since the complete operation of the Acts (i.e., 1870-1877), the reduction of disease in the group of stations 7wt subjected thereto has been, upon the whole, practically Ev. I88I : 2159. parallel with the abatement in the stations under the Acts, resulting in a comparative advantage to the latter. " On further comparison, however, of these two returns as to ' primary sores,' it becomes apparent that the reduction in the ratios of 'constantly sick 'in the subjected districts during the period of complete operation of the Acts has not been equivalent to the dimi- nution of the ratios of admissions. This fact denotes that the average duration of the cases under treatment in hospital in the ' protected ' districts has gradually increased. In this respect the returns disclose a difference between the two groups of stations which is unfavourable to the districts under the Acts. Dr. Nevins put in a table compiled from the original returns, showing the comparative duration of cases of ' primary sores ' in the 14 ' protected ' and 14 ' unprotected ' stations, and proving that the average duration of Ev. I88I, App. 2. those cases in the stations under the Acts had increased from 26'8& days in 1874 to 28*58 days in 1878 ; while in the stations without the Acts it had decreased during the same years from 28*57 days to 24*80 days. This incident undoubtedly indicates that, on the average, the cases of ' primary sores ' are of greater and increasing severity in the 'pro- 0.75. i4 tected' Ixlv PROCEEDINGS OP THE tected ' stations compared with the * unprotected ' stations ; and that fact in turn affords ground for the jiresuniptlon that, in tlic stntionr! under the Acts, a larger proportion of ' primary sores ' is of sypliilitic cliaracter than in the unsubjected stations. " 6. The returns of ' constantly sicli ' for ' primary sores ' form the basis of the evidence as to the xaving in cfficienc]/, whicli is claimed by the Army Medical Department App. 1879, \o. I, to have resulted from the operation of the Acts in respect of that class of disease. Sir Table II. p. 15S. "William ^luir's Original tabic, i)roduced in 1879, related only to the two groups of 28 .^pp. 18T9, p. 158. selected stations, and showed the comparative ratios therein during the period 1870-1878. Footnote to Table. Xhc inference drawn from those figures was, that the average rate of the subjected group i-.v. 18S1 : 1845, is Icss that half that of the other. The table shows, however, that the average difference '^''^' throughout the period of complete subjection is in fact nearly the same as the original difference in the first year, 1870. The initial ratios then were 4*46 and 9'74 (or 1 : 2-18), the average ratios were 3'47 and 7"99 (or 1 : 2*.S0). The ' protected " stations therefore started with the advantage of a ratio ' less than half that ' of the improtected stations, and the extent to which the former class increased that original advantage, or in other words, the ditlerence between the two sets of ratios, is the only result apparently attributable to the pi'otectcd stations in respect of this comparative saving in efhcicncy. For it is clearly not the gross difference, but only the net difference, after taking into account the original or initial disparity, which can ])roperly be claimed on beh.df of the Ev. 1879 : 59-63, and Stations ' protected ' by the Acts. Another inference was drawn by Sir William Muir Note p. 15 of Minutes, from a series of similar ratios for the five years 18(58-1872; viz., that the actual saving cfl'ected in the ' protected ' stations on the average of those five years was 190 men, which was equal to a possible saving of 300 men, if calculated for the entire army. As to this Ev. 1881 ; 18-15, I84t). inference, it was subsequently shown by Mr. Lawson that the basis of Sir William Muir's calculation was the absolute difference between the averages of the two sets of ratios, and Dot their comparative or net difference. Such calculation therefore appears to us to be unsound in two essential particulars (1.) It compares the ratios of actual inefKciency in the two groups of stations again without taking into account their initial difttjrence, and estimates the saving accordingly at 190 men. (2.) It assumes that an extension of the Acts to ' unprotected ' stations would reduce their inefficiency to the same ratio again without regard to the same initial difference, and thus adding an hypothetical saving of 110 men. It is quite clear to us that no saving can be shown approaching these figures, and that the alleged saving of efficiency affords no sufficient reason for the Acts. Among other various official calculations as to the daily saving in the efficient strength Ev. 1831 : 1529. of the army attributed to the operation of the Acts, it is calculated by Mr. Lawson to amount to 5' 17 men per 1,000 of force, which, on the average strength of 50,000 in the Ev. 1882: 1911. protected districts would yield a total of 258 men. This saving, even assuming it to be effected by, and to be attributable to the Acts, is gained at the total expense of 30,000?. per annum, which is equal to 116 Z. a year for each man saved. " 7. Regarding, however, as a simple fact, the greater reduction which has actually been effected in ' primary venereal sores ' since the introduction of the Acts in the sub- jected stations, the question remains whether such reduction has taken place alike in the syphilitic and non-syphilitic sores, or, if unequally, in what relative proportion. From the form of the official returns, it is impossible to decide this question otherwise than by way of deduction from the statistical evidence as to secondary syphilis. "8. {h) Secondary Si/phiUa. — In considering the evidence as to the effect of the Acts upon this form of venereal disease, the most important part of the whole enquiry, con- siderable difficulty arises from the fact that while discsepancics exist between the official returns in all respects, the most serious are involved in the statistics furnished to the Committee on this particular subject. This statistical evidence consists princijially of the following returns : — "(1.) — The ratios given in evidence in 1879 by Sir William Muir and Mr. Lawson (Evidence 219, 600-603). " (2.)— The return of Sir William Muir, forming Appendix No. 3, 1880. "(3.) — The further return of Mr. Lawson, forming Appendix No. 2, 1881. F.v. 1879 : 210. GOO- " Sir William Muir and Mr. Lawson gave in evidence in 1879 total ratios of this ^^ 1880 X 1 disease in the entire home army during the whole period 1860-1878 ; and similar ratios iaWeA. ' ^ "■ ' are contained in Sir William Muir's and Mr. Lawson's new tables, furnished in 1880 and App. 1881, >:o. 2. 1881. But these latter returns present wide differences from the figures of 1879, which App. 1881, No. 8. discrepancies have been tabulated by Dr. Nevins. It is apparent from his table that the ratios originally given (1879) showed a great reduction of secondary disease in the period before the .Acts 1860-1866, which reduction reached its lowest point in the last year, Ev. 1370 • 210-30 ^^d that the ratio for that year was in fact lower than the average of the entire subsequent period of legislation, i.e., from 1867 to 1878. The ratios afterwards furnished (1880-81) all difter from the original figures down to the year 1872, and show a smaller reduction, but the most important alteration is in the year 1866, the ratio for which in the new returns is higher than the average of the succeeding years; thus showing a fall in the average amount of this disease during the period covered by the Acts, instead of the increase indicated by the original ratios. Ev. issi : 1445. 19C0. "The explanation of these discrepancies is that the original ratios were computed in 2194. accordance with the rule of the Army Medical Department, of excluding from returns of secondary SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixv secondary syphilis all forces which had been in the United Kingdom less than one year — the excluded section being about one-tenth of the entire home army — while the new ratios comprise all men who may have been at home stations any time within the year. The original rule was adopted to prevent the inclusion of secondary disease which was Ev. 18S1 : 2953-54. due to primary infection at foreign stations, and thus to restrict the returns to disease contracted within the kingdom. That such rule was regarded by the authorities as a good one is sufficiently testified by the fact that it was uniformly followed in all depart- mental returns from 1860 to 1880, in which latter year the new method was for the first time adopted in a return furnished expressly for the purpose of this inquiry. The fact, however, would not have been material, if the additional forces thus included had been affected with only the average amount of syphilitic disease throughout the entire period; ev. 1881 : 2197. App. or if the exported disease balanced the imported, as Mr. Lawson assumed ; but Dr. No. 8. Nevin's Table demonstrates that the newly included forces must have had not only a total ratio of disease far exceeding the average — since the practical effect of adding them has been to raise the average of the whole to a remarkable extent — but. also that the 'impoited ' disease Avas greatest in the years before the Acts, particularly 1866, in which the new ratio is more than 11 per cent, higher than the original figure. To have pro- duced this effect, the added section (say one-tenth) must have had more than twice as much syphilis per 1,000 men as the residue of the whole home army. After the year 1866 these differences gradually disappear, with the result already indicated. In tlie face of these remarkable and inconsistent features, it is obviously impossible to regard the new method of these returns as satisfactory themselves, or the returns as reliable. It was Ev. issi : 1960-62. admitted, indeed, by Mr. Lawson that the statistics originally furnished were not only * more trustworthy,' but also that they afforded greater facilities for verification. " But a further difference, of even greater practical importance m this inquiry, exists between the original and later returns in the fact that the original ratios were furnished only for the entire home army, without apportionment between the two groujjs of stations, Avhile the new figures are apportioned to show the incidence of secondary disease in the two classes of stations respectively, and thus are designed to represent the comparative Ev. 1881 : 2)91. effect of the Acts. The reason assigned for the original mode of return was that any such apportionment as that now made would be fallacious, on account of the transfer of troops in the course of the development of syphilis between one station and another. Neverthe- less, although such reason remained untouched, the apportioned returns (which include the ' imported ' cases as already observed) were subsequently fui-nished, on the theory that the transfers of men between the two sets of stations may be taken to balance ; yet App. issi, No. 2. Mr. Lawson, who furnished the returns, admitted that the statistics cannot be accepted as being an exact representation of the case, and warned the Committee that the figures 2205. must be received ' with caution.' No return showing the apportionment of 'secondary ' disease without including the 'imported' cases has been produced. " On proceeding to consider the two returns which show the apportioned amount of App. I88I, No. 1, secondary syphilis, even further discrepancies become apparent. The only particulars in ^F^''^''^^' ='n'l App. Avhich the two returns are comparable are the yearly average ratios of men ' constantly in hospital' in the two classes of stations; but although the apportioned forces after 1870 are the same in each return, the respective ratios differ mure or less in nearly every year. It is therefore impossible to regai'd these statistics as absolutely and reliably accurate, but taking them for what they may be worth, Mr. Lawson's Table furnishes the data for the App. 1, No. 2. following calculation : — Ev. issi : 1967. ° „ 1970-74. Constantly sick from Secondary Syphilis. Subjected Stations. Unsubjected Stuuons. Ratios in year 1869 . . . - Average ratios during years 1870-78 Ratios per 1, 2-02 1-72 000 of Force. 2-39 2-15 " These ratios for 1869 conclusively disprove the exaggerated ideas as to the amount of syphilis in the home army which were prevalent before the passing of the Acts, and which have furnished reasons for their enactment and continuance. On comparing the- average i-atios during the subsequent period of complete operation of the Acts (1870-1878) with the initial ratios for 1869, it appears that in the 'protected' stations the average rate of reduction in secondary syphilis has exceeded, to a slight extent, the contempo- raneous diminution in the unprotected stations. If the reduction in the ratios of con- stantly sick had been equal in both grotips, the average rate in the unsubjected stations Avould have been 2-00 instead of 2-15. In other words, the difference in favour of the protected stations is equal to 0'15 of a man per 1,000 of force. But the advantage thus apparently attributable to the protected stations is subject to an important qualification, Avhich is disclosed by Mr. Lawson's Table, showing the proportion between cases of ' secondary syphilis ' and ' primary venereal sores ' in the two groups of stations respec- jable 6, B. tively, viz., that such proportion is gradually increasing in the subjected districts, as App. I88i,p. 451, 0.75. k compared Ixvi PROCEEDIXGS OF THE compared with the unsubjceted stations. The average ratios furnished by Mr. Lawsoa are as follows : — Percentage of * Secondary Syphilis' on ' Primary Sores.' Protected Stations. Unprotected Stations. 1861—60 1867—72 ... 1873—78 34-1 87-6 56-0 29-8 31-2 42-4 " These figures show that the jiroportiou of the cases of syphilis to tlie general class termed 'primary eores' is increasing to a greater extent in the stations under the Acts, than in the free stations; and, moreover, that this comparative increase distinctly attaches Ev. 1881 : 1796. isoo. to the period of the complete operation of tiie Acts. In short, the figures represent the 1797. 1803-6. fact admitted by I\Ir. Lawson, that a soldier has comparatively more chance of contracting syphilis in the 'protected' stations than in the 'unprotected' stations, i.e., to the extent of 36 against 33 out of 100 cases of ' primary sores' in each case. This fact denotes, as Mr. Lawson also admits, that there is ' a little more syphilis ' among prosti- tutes in the 'protected' districts than in the ' unprotected' districts. "It follows as a consequence from these deductions that the reduction which, as before shown, has been cfi'ected in the subjected districts since 1870 in the general class of disease termed ' primary sores,' must liave been mainly in the non-syphilitic sores, and not in cases of real primary syphilis. " The statistics on this subject, moreover, show that tlie cases of secondary syphilis in the subjected districts are also more severe in character than similar cases in the ' free ' stations, as pi-oved by the comparative times occupied in effecting their cure respectively. App. 1881, No. 7. Dr. Ncvins's Table, compiled from JNIr. Lawson's data, shows that since 1870 the average dui-ation of cases of secondary syphilis in the subjected districts has exceeded that of similar cases in the unsubjceted districts, in every year, by periods of time extending from leas than one day (in 1872) to more than six days (in 1877), the maximum period in either case not exceeding one calendar month. " Upon the whole, therefore, the evidence adduced by the official witnesses upon this subject may be fairly stated not to have succeeded in establishing the conclusion that the Acts have had any beneficial cff'ect on true sypliilis, either ' primary ' or ' secondary ;' although (as Sir William Muir admitted) the suppression, or at least the reduction, of such disease was distinctly the main, or real, object of the legislation. " 9. (c) Gonorrhcen. — The Return showing the number of cases of this kind of disease admitted to hospital, in the two entii-e groups of stations, during the entire period 1860 to 1878, proves that an ultimate general reduction has been eftecled, after considerable fluctuations common to all stations, both ' subjected ' and ' unsubjceted.' The annual ratios give the followins; average results :— V.V. 1879: 142. 171. l-il. -\pp. No. 1, Table 1. Subjected Stations. Unsubjected Stations. Average ratios per 1,000 for years 1860-69 Ditto - ditto - for year 1860 - Ditto - ditto - for years 1870-78 126 106 82 112 108 81 If, therefore, the ratios for 1869 be adopted as fixed points of comparison between the average amounts of this disease in the respective groups of stations, before and after the complete operation of the Acts, it ajipears that in the earlier period, the rate of reduction was greater in the afterwards subjected stations, but that in the latter period the average rate of diminution in the stations without the Acts has exceeded the average fall in the stations having the benefit of ' protection.' " Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixvii " Mr. Lawson's further Table showing the numbers "Constantly in hospital" for App. No. i, Table 3. gonorrhoea and sequelcB, gives the following ratios for three equal periods for com- parison : — Average Ratios per 1,000. Periods. Subjected Stations. All Unsubjected Stations. Ratios. Percentage of Improvement. Ratios, Percentage of Improvement. 1861—66 1867—72 1873—78 10-44 6-83 3-83 34 6 43-9 8-35 5-78 3-34 30-8 42 '2 " These figures also show that the relative rate of improvement effected since the complete operation of the Acts has been somewhat greater in the unsubjected districts than in the subjected stations. " The period of complete operation of the Acts thus manifests — in respect of gonorrhoea — a comparative disadvantage to the ' protected ' stations. " Moreover, in respect of the duration of cases of gonorrhoea, the ' subjected ' stations App. 1, Nos. i and 3. compare unfavourably with the unsubjected class. The figures given in Mr. Lawson's Tables yield the following results on calculation : — Average duration of Cases in Hospital. Subjected Stations. Unsubjected Stations, 1861-66 1867—72 ... 1873—78 30-4 days 21 -7 „ 20'0 „ 28-1 days 20-0 „ 16-6 „ " Here, therefore, the rate of improvement in resjDect of duration of cases in the stations under the Acts is manifestly less in the period of complete operation than before, as well as absolutely less than in the free stations during the same period. The fact thus denoted must undoubtedly be the greater severity of this form of disease in the ' pro- tected ' stations. " It is of course assumed, as Mr. Lawson does with regard to the figures for the period ev. 1881 : 1 705 to 1873 — 1878, that whatever effect Lord Cardwell's Order may have had in inducing 1706. concealment of this disease, the result affects alike (or proportionately) both classes of stations. " Upon the whole, therefore, it is proved that the stations having the benefit of the Acts have not only a larger amount of this kind of venereal disease, as well as greater virulence thereof, than the free stations, but also that the rate of reduction effected therein, under the operation of the Acts, is not comparatively equal, either to the previous reduction in the same stations without the Acts, or to the contemporaneous decrease in the non-protected class of stations. " Consequently, the opinion expressed by the Army Medical Department in their Ev. 1879 ; 729. Report for the year 1872, with respect to the inefficiency of the Acts in reducing this form of disease up to that time, may be considered as equally applicable to subsequent experience. 0.75. k2 « 10. So Ixviii rUOCEEDINGS OF THE " 10. So far, therefore, the general results of the evidence as to the several kinds of venereal disease in the two entire groups of subjected and unsubjected stations, during the i)erioil of complete operation of the Acts, may be shortly stated thus: — " (1.) — Venereal sores not si/philitic have been reduced in the ' protected ' stations at a greater rate than the contemporaneous reduction in tlio ' unjirotected ' districts collectively, altliough not exceeding tlie average rate of decrease ett'cctcd in the same stations before the application of the Acts thereto. " (2.) — Syphilis, in its two (primary and secondary) forms, has (so far as the Returns can be aecei)tcd as reliablet decreased in tlie 'protected' stations to a slightly greater extent than in the unprotected stations (/.p., equal to 0-1 5 of a man constantly in hospital pci- 1,000 of force), but with a comparative increase in tiie i)ro- portion of syphilitic to non-syphilitic sores in the 'protected' stations; and, more- over, with greater (and increasing) severit)' of disease in those stations. " (3.) GonorrlioM has been reduced at both sets of stations, but with a larger amount and greater virulence of disease, and witli a lower relative rate of iniprove- nicut in the ' protected ' group, compared witli that cifccted in the ' unprotected ' stations. " 11. The fact of the actual reduction of venereal disease in general, and of 'primary venereal sores 'in ]iarticular, in the 'protected' stations, during the ])eriod of complete administration of the Acts, raises the principal question on which the snpj (n-tcrs and opponents of the Acts are at issue, viz., to what cause is sucJi reduction attributable ? The official witnesses assert that the result is cntiiely, or mainly, the etlect of the Acts, and reh' on the fact of such reduction as a sufficient proof, per se, of their allegation. r.v 1873 ■ 1397-8 They moreover adduce such alleged result of the hygienic benefits eft'ected by the Acts 1465-0. 179S-1803. as Sufficient reason, not merely for the maintenance of the system as at present established 1(566-65.2111-13. under the Acts, but for the cxtcnsiou thcrcof thront;hout the kingdom, or at least to all ^.^ee' 31^4-3?' places wherein any of the national forces may be located, including London. The wit- Ev. 1881 : 4706. nesscs on the other hand who are in favour of repeal, deny the alleged efficiency of the .) 11-13-5. Acts, and base such denial on the twofold fact, that the causes which efl'ected a general reduction of venereal disease before the legislation have continued in o])eration during the subsequent period oT administration of the Acts ; and that the rate of improvement in the subjected stations during that period has not exceeded the previous average rate of reduction, even in the case of primary sores, while in the other classes of disease, viz., syphilis and gonorrha?a, it has been less. " Dr. Nevins' calculations indeed show a close average approximation between the N 1 actual annual ratios of ' primary sores ' in the stations under the Acts during the ])eriod I). -47 and Dingram,' of ' protection,' and tlic Computed ratios representing the theoretical course of that disease, p. 04. on the assumption that the average rate of diminution in the preceding period would have continued subsequently independently of the Acts. Mr. Lawson, on the contrary, contends that, but for the interposition of the Acts, the course of disease in the subjected stations would have retrograded, probably until the average of the second period equalled that of the first; but this is inconsistent with the history of the disease in those stations during the previous 2)eriod, as well as with the fact that in all the ' unsubjected ' stations a reduction of disease was contemjioraueously effected without the aid of the Acts. The ' incidence of disease ' independently of tiie Acts evidently, on the whole, denoted a general decrease throughout the Army. The official Keturns, as already observed, show a characteristic difference between the two classes of stations in the aggregate, in respect of the regular and continuous decrease of primary sores ' in the subjected districts, con- 1S79 Ann 1 p I5fi teinporaneously with the intermittent and lesser reduction in the unsubjectcd group. But on com])aring together the ratios of the unsubjected stations individually, it is apparent that the reduction was very unequal in the several districts ; and, moreover, that several A'so App. 1, iseo, of the subjected stations had ratios continually higher than any of the unsubjected stations, Tai.lesG and 7. cxccpt tlic largest cities and chief towns ; while as many as 31 ' free ' stations with 2,141 1879 Mip t Tabic" ™^" ''^"^^ "° ^"'^'^ disease at all returned in the given year 1878. " The official Keturns show, as demonstrated by Dr. Nevins, that from 1867 to 1877 1880. App. 1, Table (inclusive), the avd'agc ratios of ' primary sorcs ' Were lower in two of the 14 selected ' ■ unsubjected stations than in any of the ' protected siations,' and that two of the subjected stations (viz., AYindsor and Maidstone) had higher average ratios of such disease than any of the unsubjected stations, except the large towns and cities, viz., Preston, Sheffield, IManchester, Dublin, and London. One unsubjected city (Edinburgh) had, moreover, an average ratio less than Aldershot and Colchester, and far below that of Windsor and Maidstone, all 'protected ' stations. The case of Windsor is the more remarkable, because _ • H i 's according to the Police Returns, that station has fewer prostitutes ihan any subjected Reportrisso, p. 9. Station, except Winchester and Deal, the average number since 1876 being only 14, and -App. 1880. that during the same period there have been no brothels of a,iiy kind in that district. No 3, RctuiQ C, Nevertheless, in 1877 and 1878 (the last years comprised in the Army Returns) the total ratios of venereal disease of all kinds at Windsor considerably exceeded those of any £^. jg.g other subjected station. It is stated, indeed, by the Regimental Surgeons of the Infantry (the Guards), periodically stationed at Windsor, that the majority of the admissions to App. 5, 6 and 8. hospital there for ' primary sores ' and gonorrhoea are cases contracted out of the district Ev, 1879: 2120. 2558. (principally in London). But as these troops are regularly examined, wherever they are located. Er. 1881 : 1691. Ev. 1S79 : SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixlx located, once a fortnight (and sometimes every week), tlie amount of disease possibly thus ' imported ' would form only a small part of the total amount debited to Windsor during 2723 the entire stay of each battalion there, i.e., nearly six months. Moreover, tiie hearsay evidence on which the statement is founded is obviously uncertain and unreliable. " It is evident that the mere fact of the presence or absence of the Acts in any station, or set of stations, will not, per se, account for high or low ratios of disease ; and this inference is remarkably illustrated and confirmed by a fact proved by Mr. Lawson, viz. : Ev. 1879 ■ 409 that in Aldershol Camp in 1868-9, while the Acts were in full operation there, the ratios of 'primary sores' in different regiments varied from 142 to 23 per 1,000 of force — the higher ratio being more than six times that of the lower — a difference considerably greater than that which in the same years existed between the highest unsubjected App. I880. No. station and the lowest subjected station. This fact, indeed, indicates that the amount of P- 1^6. disease in different army stations is dependent, to a great extent, upon the character and habits of the men compofiing the forces at such places respectively. Mr. Lawson said, Ev. 1379 : 415. 'It depends vastly upon the customs which exist among the men in the regiment.' The disparity shown by the Army Medical Reports between the annual ratios of disease in the Household Cavalry and Foot Guards, both stationed in London, is a further illus- tration of the same axiom. "12. The allegation of the official witnesses who support the Acts, as to the beneficial effects of the statutory operations on the health of the forces in the 'protected' districts rests U23on the assumption that the only material dilference between the two groujjs of stations consists of the operation of the Acts in the one set and not in the other ; and that in all other particulars the respective conditions as to venereal disease are equal. It appears, however, from the evidence adduced, that in addition to the essentially different character of the two sets of stations in the aggregate, and of the various kinds of stations grouped together in the ' unsubjected ' class, as already observed, there are certain other important circumstances wliich must fairly be taken into consideration in forming a sound judgment upon the subject. The first is, the fact that all soldiers entering a 'subjected' ev. 1870 -. 281-295. district— even after a short absence — are individually examined with the s^jecial object of detecting and preventing venereal disease being 'imported' by them into the district; while d^ gj] in the unsubjected districts no such examination is made. The declared intention of this £,, jggj . gtgj practice (which is a Departmental and not a statutory regulation) is to secure a fair trial of the ' great experiment ' in legislation, by preventing the importation of disease into the 'protected' stations only. The immediate effect of the examination is to debit each of r, ,oto ci^ 11. T ■ '11 C :!• 1 11 11 1 IT ' *°^"- D ' *. the subjected stations with the cases of disease detected thereat, although such disease may possibly have been contracted in 'unsubjected' stations. But th(! ultimate effect is undoubtedly to diminish the total amount of disease which would otherwise have been returned at such station. The result of the experiment is therefore to prevent propa- gation of disease in the subjected stations, but to allow it without interference in the unsubjected stations, with a proportionate effect on the respective Returns. Thus, if a badly diseased regiment (such as that instanced by Mr. Lawson, in which one-half of the j.^ jgg, . ^2^5 men had venereal sores on the average within twelve months) were sent to a subjected station, their disease would be arrested on the threshold, and propagation prevented ; the result in such case being the increase of disease returned at that station, to the extent only of the number of men at once sent to hospital, and no more. But, if the same regiment were sent to an unprotected station, the same amount of disease would be multiplied enormously by the spread of the disease through the women of the district, and the returns would be increased accordingly. The fact that this method of examination has been adopted in the protected districts, as auxiliary to the system of the Acts, is a sufficient proof not only of its practicability, but also of its value. Moreover it supports the recommendations to that effect of the Army authorities generally, as well as the Medical Committee, on whose Rej^ort the present legislation was based, and who, in „ , _ „ recommending the periodical examination of public prostitutes, added, 'However ises, p, xjoti. efficiently the regulations as regards women may be carried out, their success in arresting Ev. 1881 : 6866-72. the spread of disease must be very imj'jerfect unless similar precautions be adopted for preventing the men from carrying infection to the women. These health inspections should be universal throughout the Army. Without such a regulation the proposed periodical examination of women must lose half its value.' The Select Committee of the House of Commons, in 1869, also recommended the periodical examination of soldiers, Rep_ iggg, par. 6. with the exception of non-commissioned officers and married men of good character. It is clear to us that the limitation of such a successful and valuable method of preventing disease to the stations in which the Acts are applied is utterly inconsistent, not only with that essential condition of equality between the two groups, which is necessary for pur- ^^ jggi ; 399-900. poses of fair experiment, but also with those principles of humanity and economy, on 2116-22. which the whole legislation was ostensibly founded. " Another fact which materially affects the comparison between the two sets of stations, as furnishing reason for the greater fluctuations and slor>'er reduction of disease in the unsubjected districts^ is the transmigration of prostitutes from the subjected stations. That this legislation had a very disturbing effect upon prostitutes who successively became subject thereto, is conclusively proved by the Annual Reports of the Assistant Commis- sioner of the Metropolitan Police relative to the Acts, which show that, since the Captain Harris's operation of the Acts, and more especially since the complete enforcement of the periodical no^'Y ' > ^ "™ examinations, a large projoortion of the registered prostitutes in each district 'left the district, independently of others who 'married,' 'entered homes,' 'returned to friends,' or 0.75. k 3 died.' Ixx PKOCEEDINGS OF THE died." Daring tlie years 186.5 — 1870 inclusive, the number of women who ' left the districts ' gruilually and steadily rose from about 8 per cent, to 28 per cent, of the total i.v. 18S1 : 900. number on tiic register. Since that year that proportion has remained about the same. There is no positive evidence of the reason for this fact, but there is little room for doubt tliat they went away to avoid the Acts ; and those most likely to depart would be diseased women, who became thus liable to be at once committed to hospital. IJeing soldiers' prostitutes, they would naturally resort to other military stations not under the Acts ; and Ev. 1885: 111-124. the result of their ingress would be a i)roportionate increase and multiplication of disease ■143. therein. vSome evidence was adduced tliat diseased women from Portsmouth went to the Ev. 1381 : 902. jgj^ yf 'W^jglit and Winchester, and others from Plymouth went to Exeter, with injurious consequences in each case. Besides the registered women, the same reasons would influence the movement of prostitutes who desired to avoid registration ; but of such there Ev. 1879; 904-5. is no record, nor, indeed, any accurate informaton. It appears, indeed, on the other hand that considerable numbers of diseased women annually come into the subjected districts for the purpose of getting medical treatment in the Government hospitals, which they cannot obtain elsewhere, in which case they are at once brought under the Acts and sent to the certified hospitals. The propagation of disease by such women is thus prevented, or at least speedily arrested. On considering, however, the figures in the police reports above referred to as to the departure of registered prostitutes from the subjected districts, with the Returns .showing the fluctuations and less reduction compared with tlie protected stations of ' primary sores' in the unsubjectcd districts, during the entire jieriod covering the application of the Acts, it appears evident that the relation between the facts denoted by these statistics may reasonably be regarded as that of cause and eflTect. Ev. 1881 ; 2152, 2153. " A third circumstance which undoubtedly afl'ects the comp.arative amount of disease in the two classes of stations is, that in the subjected stations there is ample hospital accommodation for women with venereal disease, while in the unsubjectcd districts in the aggregate there is scarcely any ; London, Dublin, Glasgow, and Liverpool being the only unsubjected stations where Lock hospitals are established, and in the two first- mentioned places only to an insufficient extent. At a few other places a small number of Captain Harris's such paticnts are admitted to ordinary hospitals. Tiie total number of beds appropriated Report 1880. p. 4, n. I. -^q ^],g registered women under the Acts in England alone is 645, which, on the 31st December 1880 were available for the total number of women then on tiic register, i.e., 1879, being equal (nearly) to one bed for every three women, although they were 111. Ret. 1 , till. 26. then occupied by only 242 patients, viz., nearly three beds to each woman for the time being actually diseased. Those jn'ojiortions of accommodation and use had existed for several years previously, as shown by the figures for preceding periods in the Police Reports. The number of beds available for female venereal patients in places not subjected to the Acts is not exactly ascertained according to the evidence, but it is certain Ev. 1882 : 5415 6. that the total hospital accommodation for unregistered women venereally diseased is not 1882. Ap|). 211, p. 7. only fiir Jess than that afforded to registered women under tlie Acts, but also is quite inadequate to the demand. The inequality of conditions denoied by these facts is very striking. In the subjected districts every diseased prostitute can ensure medical treatment and be prevented from communicating disease by jjlacing herself under the Acts (if she be not already registered), while in all other phices (except a few) a diseased woman in poor circumstances has no means whatever, except entry to the workhouse, of obtaining cure, and, therefore, continues to ply her avocation, and to spread disease so long as physically able. Even in the few places having Lock liospitals, except Glasgow, such woman has no chance of admission until her case becomes severe. That a considerable Ev. 1881 : 893. portion of the disease in unsubjected districts is attributable to these facts is unquestion- able ; indeed, so great is the advantage of the subjected districts in this respect, that Ev. 1879 ; 904-5. according to Mr. Lawson ' many women from stations not under the Acts come into the stations where the Acts are in force to be cured, they being unable to get medical treat- ment outside.' This statement is supported by Captain Harris' Reports e.(/., in 1880 as many as 612 prostitutes ' are known to have come into the several (protected) districts Report 1880, pur. G. from unprotected places; 404 (or 66-01 per cent.) of these were found to be diseased on App. 1881, p. 461. ti^eii- first examination. " A further advantage has been afforded to the subjected stations in the preference which, accordin;;- to the Army Medical Reports, has been practically shown to them, as Ev. 1881 : 2855-Go. being ' Barracks of magnitude and importance,' in the gradual application since 1859 to Army Stations in general of various physical, social and educational improvements having a beneficial sanitary effect on soldiers generally ; such improvements having been introduced in the subjected stations earlier in time, and on a larger scale, than in the unsubjected stations. The great practical benefit of these various salutary innovations and regulations on the physical, moral and intellectual habits and condition of the soldiers is abundantly testified by all persons of experience. " It is of course impossible to decide to what extent the several circumstances above- Ev. 1881: 2137, 2138. mentioned may have affected the comparative ratios of disease in the two groups of 2158. 2151. stations, but that they have had considerable effect apparently favourable to the subjected stations, not even the most ardent advocate of the Acts can deny. " 13. (tf) Loss of Efficiency in the entire Home Army from all forms of Venereal Disease App. 1880: No. 3 A Combined. — On comparing the two official Returns which afford information on this head, p. 55, and 1881, No. during the entire period 1860 — 1878, it appears that although the ' Strength ' for each *' P" ^^^- year in the first table agrees exactly with the ' Force ' stated in the second, yet the number of cases, and consequently the ratios of disease, differ considerably. The following SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixsi following average ratios of ' Daily loss of service per 1,000 of strength' from all venereal diseases combined are shown by the two Tables : — • Years. Average Daily Loss per 1,000. Table, No. 1. Table, No. 2. I860' 23-35 23 42 1861 23 13 23-38 1862 Before existing 21-98 22-24 1863 |) Acts in < 19-94 20"25 1864 operation. 19-82 18-72 1865 17-81 18-05 1866 J . 16-16 16-13 1867-1 17-42 17-87 1868 17-53 17-37 1869 14-86 14-49 1870 Gradual 12-64 12-64 1871 and 12-40 12-40 1872 Complete 13-22 ] 2-98 1873 / cpperation of ( 11-28 11-32 1874 the Acts. 8 901 Lord Cardwell's , 8-90 1875 8"54 Order — concealment 8-69 1876 8-78 of disease. 8-78 1877 9-OS 1 9-07 1878J ' 10-53- Reserves called out. 10-32 '•' These figures prove that there was a regular and continuous decrease of the loss of eflBciency from all forms of venereal disease throughout the entire period before the Acts from 1860 to 1866, at the end of which year the first existing Act came partly into operation. The ratios for the following years, 1867 and 1868, show a rise, but thenceforth until 1873 a further reduction ensued, with a slight intermediate fluctuation. After 1873 the ' concealment of disease,' presumably induced by Lord Cardwell's Order, is apparent in suddenly lower ratios, with a further rise in the final years, 1877 and 1878 ; the great increase in the latter being probably due to the inclusion of the Reserve Forces. It is evident, therefore, from these figures, that the improvement in efficiency in the entire Home Army, which was eflfected throughout the years 1860-66, before the operation of the Acts, was continuous and without fluctuation, and has never been exceeded in any like period during their administration; while the improvement effected subsequently to 1866 has been intermittent and fluctuating. " ]N'one of the Returns furnished to the Committee show the ratios of the annual loss of efficiency from all forms of venereal disease combined, in the two complete groups of stations respectively, during the entire period, 1860-1878, comprised in the general Returns. " Upon a general review of the statistical evidence of venereal disease in the entire Home Army "during the entire period from 1860 to 1878, it is apparent, therefore, that whatever the real effect of the Acts may have been, the rate of improvement in the health of the entire body has not increased since their administration. Nor does the sanitary condition of the portion put under tlie ' protection ' afforded by the Acts, as proved by the official Returns, show any substantial advantage over the ' unprotected ' forces, — except in the one particular of non-syphilitic sores, — even under the several unequal conditions already remarked, which afford comparatively, and practically, considerable advantages to the stations under the Acts. «IL — As TO Venereal Disease among Prostitutes. " 14. The evidence as to such disease among the registered women under the Acts is comprised in the Annual Reports of the Assistant Commissioner of Metropolitan Police, supplemented by the testimony of Dr. Barr, the medical officer at Aldershot. Captain Harris's last Report (1880), Return No. 1, shows that although the number of registered women has decreased almost regularly in the period of complete administration, 1870- 1880, yet the annual per-centage ratios of disease have inversely Increase ; and that since 1875 such Increase has been regular and continuous, from-148 per cent, in the former to 176 per cent, in the latter year. The significant fact denoted by these latter figures is, that on the average every woman was sent to hospital nearly twice In each year. _ More accurately, the total number of cases of disease was 3,316, representing 1,849 individual women out of the total number of 3,268 on the register. The several kinds of disease are not distinguished in the Reports. It is certainly remarkable that notwithstanding the vio-ilance of the police and the examining surgeons, aided by the liberal, and even lavish, hospital accommodation, as shown by the excessive number of beds provided for these 0.75. k 4 women, Report; ]>. 5, col. 31. Report, p. 2, jmr. Ixxii rnOCEEDINGS OF THE women, as already obscrvcil, the per-centagc of disease among them has for several years past steadily increased, and, according to the latest Reports, is still increasing. If the average duration of the cases admitted to hospital be calculated from Captain Harris's Returns, it apjjcars to have been in 1S80 nearly .'50 days per case, so tiiat on the average each individual woman spent about 52 days (or about one-eeveath) of that year in hospital at the expense of the public. Report, |>. 0-13. " On examining the records of the several stations comprised in Return No. 1 as to venereal disease among registered women, it a{)pears that in II of the largest stations the per-centage of such disease was iiigher in 1881) than in 1870, after 11 years' working of tiic Acts, contemporaneously with the reduction in tlie number of women, viz., in Portsmouth, Dovonjiort, Chatham, "Woolwich, Aldershot, Windsor, Shornclitle, Col- chester, Greenwich, Canterbury, and Maidstone. In some of these stations disease has been progressively rising for several years past. The other six stations (there being 17 in the Police Statistics which are grouped as 14 in the Army Returns) show an actual decrease in disease, although in on^- one case (Sheerness) is the fail considerable. At Dcvonport the disease among the registered women has risen continuously from 102 per Ev. 18S2 : 1194J-58. cent, in 1875 to 171 percent, in 1880 notwithstanding that the police there employed sjiocial means to detect disease, auxiliary to the periodical examinations by the medical otliccrs, by obtaining information from men in hospital, npon which tlie particular women indicated are dealt with. This practice may possibly be followed in other districts. The case of Aldershot is very remarkable. The average number of women on the register £v. ISSI : 2804. increased from 135 in 1867 to 326 in 1870, while tlie ratio of disease decreased from 325 per cent, in the former year to 20G ];cr cent, in the latter. Between 1870 and 1880 the average nnmber of women declined almost regnlarly from 326 to 150, while the ratio per cent, "of disease inversely rose from 200 ]ier cent, in the former year to 356 ]ier cent, in Rerxiit. p. 8, c-HOUO. Af. 1881. Mo. 21. Tab. 1. Do. Tab. 2. Do. Tab. 4. Do. Tab. 3. Et. 1881.7433, p. 375. Report, 1872. 7647. 7611. App. 21,Tab. 5. 7620. Report, p. 2, par. 3. Ev. 1881 : 3848-54. Et.1881: 7268.7273. Ev. 1882: 147. 282. 443. 668. 786. 130. 142. 423. 711. Et. 1882 : 3389-99. prostitution, which, after all is the essential matter, (or that existing brothels are not only much more frequented now than formerly, particularly by young men, but also that much illicit intercourse is pnictised in other houses, and in fine weather in open places about the district, bv prostitutes both registered and clandestine. " In Chatham the number of brothels, according to Captain Harris's Rotui^is, has continu- ously increased from 64 in 1876 to 84 in 1880, although the number of si)ldiera there has bceii contenijioraneously reduced. The number of brothels of all kinds in ^[(^if^stone is "returned" as only eight; but a witness residing in that town declared from his own observation that there were considerably more. In Cork (which is not included in Captain Harris's Keport) all the brothels are said to have been su[)pressed, but that was effected by the [lersonal action of the Itoman Catholic clergy in 1876 after the C. 1). Acts had been lor several years in operation there. " '1 hat the ordinary law under the administration of the local police is able to effect reduc- tions both of brothels and also of i)r(istitutes in an ' unjjrotected ' place, even greater in number than the decicases respectively claimed in the subjected districts, is conclusively shown by the evidence of the Chief Constable of Glasgow. This witness proved that between 1870 and 1879 the number of brothels in that city known to the police had been reduced from 204 to 22, and the number of known j)rostitutes living in iirothels from 559 to 37. The nimiber of j)cr?oiis prosecuted during the same j)eriod ' lor harbouring prostitutes for jjurposes of prostitution' was 990. 'i"he beneiicial results of these jiroceedings was shown by the fact that the number of informations for t.hel'ts in brothels during the same period w"as 808, while the comparatively number during the previous decade (1860-69) was 3,804. Moreover, the number of informations of theft by prostitutes in the streets durin"- the same period (notwithstanding the current repressive actii>n against brothels) was 2,887, as compared with 5,067 in the preyious period, 1860-69. These proceedings, moreover, had resulted in many advantages to the coinmunity, both social apd moral ; and had not produced any mischievous results : ' ^\'hile the reduction in the number of brothels has been so consi'lerable, and the streets have been to a great extent cleared of the loose and abandoned women who used to frequent them, I am at the present time without one single complaint from any respectable citizen, that ])rostitution has gone into more secret or private channels,' &c. Such was the report of this witness made in 1872 to the authorities, and confirmed by his testimony given in 1881. He was satisfied that prostitution by prostitutes not living in brothels had not increased in Glasgow, and that solicitation there was less than in any other large city. He had also deduced from the Returns of the Registrar General evidence that the per-centage of illegitimate to legi- timate births hud not increased, but had, in fact, materially decreased during the period (1870-1879) in question. There had not, moreover, been any 'complaints against the police for the way in which they had exercised their powers.' Upon the whole, there- fore, Glasgow furnishes, in respect of prostitution, iis remarkable an example of police administration as it does of hospital operation, without any of the auxiliary powers of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and with results more beneficial in all respects. "21, Ae to {2), the reduction of prostilutrs, it appears from Captain Harris's Report, 1880, that the average number of registered women in the several districts under the Acts has been largely reduced during the period of operation, particularly among the younger prostitutes. The total decrease is 2,973. In 1880, however, there was an actual increase of 84. This return is supportetl, so far as the Devonport (Plymouth), district is concerned, by the testimony of Inspector Anniss, which station may be regarded, in respect of police administration, as the ' model ' station under the Acts. The accuracy of this witness's figures (from which the Return for Plymouth was compiled), has, however, been challenged, and it is evident that serious discrepancies exist between them and the Judicial Statistics published by the Home Oflice from Returns made by the local police. '1 hese latter Returns ceased after 1865, in consequence of the subsetiuent publication of. the Reports of the C. D. Acts police, but evidence as to the approximate number of women and girls actually practising prostitution at the present time in many of the subjected districts has been furnished to the Committee by the local police and other witnesses. The result of iheir testimony presents an important objection to Captain Harris's Returns, viz., that the register is not conclusive proof of the fact of diminution in the number of prostitutes, because (as is alleged), there is a large and increasing class of ' clandestine ' prostitutes, particularly young girls, who evade regis- tration. It should be observed that only persons actually on the register on the 31st De- cember in each year are returned, although others may have been entered and removed therefrom during the year. This particularly aliccts the registration of young girls. The subject of ' clandestine ' prostitution is obviously one of which accurate knowledge is difficult to obtain, especially for the police, who are bound to register every known prostitute ; i. c, known to them. In the case of Devonport, the inspector stated that there were not more than 40 clandestine prostitutes in that district, and his Returns show not one girl under 17 years of age on the register. The evidence of the three super- intendents of local police leaves no doubt, however, that such figure is far below the real number of unregistered prostitutes; that such number is, perhaps, even equal to that of the registered women, and that the official estimate is ' quite absurd.' They comprise, also, many very young girls. It appears, indeed, from the evidence, that the attention of the C D. Acts police there is confined to women and girls who resort to brothels, or solicit men publicly, methods of prostitution which the real ' clandestines ' would carefully avoid SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES. Ixxix avoid. Mr. Shaen put in a tabulated statement proving that since 1870 a total number '^^^ = -^PP- P- *84. of 173 wwregistered prostitutes, i. e., women who confessed themselves to be prostitutes, were rescued and reclaimed by a charitable society m that town, of which number 39 girls were under 17 years of age. A Eeturn subsequently made by the Secretary of the App. 1882: No. Ii, Rescue Society of London, showed that during the 12 years, 1870-1881, that society had ^*'- °- received from all the subjected districts a total number of 358 fallen women and girls who were not registered, and of whom 123 were under 17 years of age, and many of these were venereally diseased. The experience of this society is that more than hnlf Ev. 1882: 3660. the number of fallen females go astray under the age of 18 years. The majority of fallen women who are not registered or ' avowed ' prostitutes, but who practise prosti- tution clandestinely to a greater or less extent, are domestic servants and girls in Ev. 1882 : App. 8 & 0. factories and workshops. " Further evidence was given by other witnesses from their own observation as to the prevalence ol' clandestine prostitution by both adults and juveniles, at specific subjected stations, viz.: — "S'^Jr^- Ev.1882: 112&-39. Maidstone 3jg5_325^_ " bouthumpton. 5562-69. " Cork. 25-14-60. " Woolwich. E^_ I88J . 7712-28. "All this evidence explicitly controverted the oflBcial statistics as to the numbers of Et. 1882: 2052-78. common known women in these several places. " It is true that some of this evidence was subsequently contradicted by the C. D. Acta police and other witnesses, who had not observed the facts alleged, and therefore did not believe them to exist. But the positive testimony to the contrary has the comparative advantage that it is the result of actual observation of acts and persons when not under the eye of the police. It must of course be assumed that the register itself represents the total number of prostitutes 'known' to the police, and therefore their additional testi- mony that they do not believe that any prostitution, or 'not much,' beyond that so repre- sented and 'returned' by them really exists, leaves positive evidence to the contrary quite untouched. In short, therefore, while the fact of clandestine prostitution is admitted by the police, the extent of it will evidently be better discovered by unofficial observers. The comparative inefficacy of police observation is remarkably illustrated by Ev. 1881 : 8245-76. the astonishing evidence given by Mr. Krause, as to the proceedings in the examination 879*-8822. room at Woolwich being observable from the public footpath — a fact never discovered by the official eye. " The actual reduction of registered women shown by the official Returns Is adduced as proof that the effect of the operation or the system of administration of the Acts is to deter women and girls from a career of prostitution on which otherwise they might and probably would embark. Hut the right conclusion from the evidence appears to be that the Acts have a ' deterrent effect ' to this extent only, that such persons avoid open and avowed prostitution, which would cause them to be ' registered.' They are, in fact, only deterred from ' registration,' and not from prostitution. This conclusion appears indeed to be confirmed by Captain Harris's Report for 1880, wherein he says that the strict obser- ^"' ^■ vation of the police upon the brothels has no doubt ' deterred many women of doubtful character from resorting thereto for fear of being brought under the operation of the Acts.' "The actual reduction of registered women has also been quoted as proving that the amount of sexual indulgence of men — more particularly soldiers and sailors in ' protected ' districts — has diminished. If this, however, be the fact, the credit for such diminution Ev. 1882: 180-6. 481- must be undoubtedly given to the many improvements in the barrack life of soldiers, and ^' ^^^-1005. to the institution of homes for sailors, and other means and regulations devised for their protection from ' crimps ' and ' harpies,' as well as to the numerous benevolent agencies now happily in increasing operation for promoting intellectual and moral improvements in the national forces. " On the other hand, it is conclusively proved by the evidence as to Glasgow, already noticed, that a substantial reduction in the number of ' known ' or avowed prostitutes may be effected by ordinary police action, and without the means of the periodical exami- nation under the Acts. " 22. As to (3), the alleged improvement in character of the registered prostitutes, it is advanced as a proof of the beneficial administration of the Acts that the women who are now registered under the Acts are more decent in appearance and conduct, as well as in domestic circumstances, than formerly, and that solicitation in public has diminished. Taking Woolwich as a specimen case, and comparing the testimony of Mr. Tuffield with that of Mr. Krause upon the subject, it Is undoubtedly the fact that the women are now better dressed and more decently lodged than formerly, and aLso that there Is but little solicitation in the public streets. But these results indicate the possession by the women Ev. 1881 : 7729-7734. of more money than formerly, and as that can only be derived by this class from their ?763. evil avocations, Mr. Krause's opinion that prostitution in Woolwich is a prosperous and ll^J^' attractive pursuit is evidently well-founded. There is consequently, as he says, ' no 8546. need ' now for public solicitation ; men visit the registered women in increased and in- 8597. creasing numbers, and although each woman now has a separate room, he has himself "^.^• 0.75. 1 4 discovered IxXX PROCEEDINGS OF THE discovered in tlie course of his mioisterial visits as many as eight men in a bedroom witlj one woman. According to his observations the demand for prostitutes, owing to the increase of vicious men in recent years, is greater even than tlie supi)ly. It, therefore, tlie improved ai)|)earance and pubhc behaviour of the women be attributable to the Acts, it is inevitable that the jiroximate cause of such improvements, i.e., the increase of pro- fessional gain, must be also attributed to them, together with the fact of the increased vice among males which it denotes, as the effect of this '* experiment " in legislation. Ev. 1881: 7750. " AA'itli regard, however, to the ])ub]ic behaviour of the women at Woolwich, it must be observed that Mr. Tutheld's opinion was derived from the observation of the ' lietter parts' of the town, whicii are frequented by prostitutes having the apjiearance of ladies ; but in the lower parts of the town, wiiere the majority of the registered women live, and 7093. 7751-3. witii which Mr. Krause's vocation renders him exceptionally fannliar, scenes still occur (according to his statement) whicli ibr indecency and disorder can scarcely have been .'744-7. 8214-21. exceeded, if indeed ec[iialled, at any previous time. The most serious ])art of the matter is 8763-08. that some of the worst misconduct is coimccted with the journey to and from the periodical 4391. 8239. examinations. On this point his evidence stands unquestioned, as Mr. Tuffield was igno- rant even of the locality of the examination room. 'I'hat the registered women are in fact a violent and lawless class, whose better conduct is influenced solely by motives of self 8278-92. interest, was sulisequently fully proved, by the incident of a personal attack by some of them ujion this witness, in consequence of the evidence given by him, some report where- 8283-4. of having been communicated to them by (as they t-aid) their ' insj)ector,' who was * possibly ' one of the police engaged in the administration of the Acts at Woolwich. In point of fact the informant can scarcely have Ueen any other person. Et. 1882: 1167-98. "Evidence was subsecjuently given by jMr. ^\'heeler, of Chatham, showing that the 1(1.9825-7. registered women oi' that town were frequently disorderly and indecent, and sometimes drunk, in their jirogrcss to and from the ex;imination room. The medical officer had not observed this public scandal, but admitted that the women sometimes came up ft)r exami- nation in a drunken state. " The othcial witnesses, in attributing to the C. D. Acts the general inijirovement in the order of the streets of the subjected towns which taken place contemporaneously with the operation of the Acts, ignore the fact that the maintenance of street order is entrusted by the Legislature entirely to the local police, and that in recent years greatly increased efforts have been made by these ofticers to effect this public improvement by a more App. 1882. No. ] 2 vigorous exercise of their powers. The evidence on that subject given by the head officers ^, 4- of local police at Plymouth, Devonport, Stonehose. and Portsmouth, and the returns put in by them, afford good reasons for that improvement in the public behaviour of prosti- Et. 1882: 1158-60. tutes which is testified by witnesses on behalf of the. Acts. Similar activity of the local police in Chatham and other subjected towns has produced similar beneficial results. " 23. (4.) — As to the rescue and reclamation of prostitutes. — The witnesses in support of the Acts allege two practical advantages in respect of reclamation afforded by the opera- tion of the Acts : — (a.) 'Ihat the process of bringing women under the Acts affords means of warning them, which in many cases results in their abandoning the immoral life they have commenced. [h.) That the system of administration of the Acts presents opportunities of moral instruction and inducuce, which in many instances result in reclaiming the women from vicious habits. "The first of these allegations concerns the action of the police; the second that of the hospital authorities. As to the former, neither the Acts nor the official instructions to the police ajijiointed under them contain any directions upon the subject, but the practice Par. 4. is alleged in Captain Harris's Keport (188U) to be this: — ' Whenever a chance exists of reclaiming a woman, every effort is made before she is brought under the operation of the Acts : and after she has signed the voluntary submission form, the opportunity is still Par. 5. given her of her returning to her friends.' In addition to this, 'young persons' {i.e., not exceeding 18 years of age) are ' cautioned by the police,' and if they thereujion aband(jn the immoral life they have commenced they are not registered. Other tiirls found in bad company and improper jilaces are ' rescued.' The method employed in Et 1881 • 3183-3204 ^^^^^'^ proceedings is fully stated by Ins])ector Anniss, from whose evidence it appears 33il-13. 3960-3991. that the action of the jiolice in the matter is confined to the discovery of these women and girls, and tliat the substantial work of rescuing and reclaiming willing subjects is effected 4890-4. by benevolent persons, who seek or accept the aid of the police for effecting their charit- able purposes, and without whose eflbrts and means there would be no rescue or recla- mation at all, although the police assume the credit for the entire work. The method emjiloyed by the police for this discovery is the daily domiciliary visit to all known brothels, a fact wluch is evil in itself, and in its consequences, according to the views of the opponents of the Acts. Moreover, such visits are made not for the purpose of rescuing ,„., J.. or rechuming, but only of discovering persons qualified to be brought imder the Acts, and consequently of subjecting them to periodical examinations — a fact which induces one of the strongest supporters of the Acts to acknowledge a preference for any other method of attaining the tame results. It is evident that the rescue of young girls from vicious circumstances and the initiatory stages of an immoral career does not require the machinery Ev.ig82: 220, 938. 53. of the C. D. Acts, nor the special j;owers of the j)olice employed under them. As a matter of fact, such benevolent work is often performed bv the local police to the extent of SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixxxi of their opportunities (whicli might easily be increased), and without the objections which attach to the procedure under the Acts. " As to reclamatory efforts of hospital authorities, the only provision of that kind made by the Acts is for the 'moral and religious instruction ' of the women detained. Instruc- tion of a similar kind is in fact provided in all hospitals for the moral and spiritual benefit of the patients. There is no presumption that such instruction, whether received from an appointed chaplain or from benevolent volunteers, has any better effect in a hospital certified under the Acts than it would have if given in an equally well managed voluntary ^^ jg^j. ^g^^^ ^3,0 hospital. Indeed, assuming the periodical examinations to have the hardening effects ■which are attributed to them by opponents of the Acts, and which are in fact proved so far as the evidence of actual experience on the subject has yet gone, and taking into consider- 7753-60.8222-3. atlon also that each patient in a certified hospital is eompulsorily sent to and detained 86S3-4. there, the greater chance of eflfectiug reclamation by means of such instruction manifestly lies among the voluntary patients. On this point there is a concensus of opinion of all e^. 1332 . 33i7_8. ■witnesses who have had practical experience in rescuing and reclaiming both registered 3390 96. and unregistered women. Eescue societies, in fact, prefer to rescue unregistered women 2684. 2756-67. on account solely of the greater difficulty in reclaiming registered women. Dr. Cook, the chaplain of the London Lock Hospital, in contrasting the two classes of patients in that institution, said, ' The ordinary patients (the majority of whom are known London pro- stitutes) are very mixed, . . . but the Government patients are brutalised beyond description in appearance and manner. The probability and hopes of reclamation -n-ould be greater in the ordinary than in the case of the Government patients.' It is agreed on 3379-82. all hands that the longer a woman remains In a career of prostitution the less chance there is of her reclamation. One of the undoubted effects of the system of registration and periodical examination is that the normal average term of jDrostltutlon Is increased, and is continually increasing in the case of registered women. Caj^t. Harris's Return (No. 2) Report, 1880: p. 14. shows that while the number of young prostitutes registered in all the districts has decreased, the average ages of the women remaining on the register has steadily increased ; the number of women above 30 years have risen from 202 in 1870 to 398 In 1880, con- temporaneously with a reduction in the total number. From these figures it is evident that the prostitutes remaining on the register are a confirmed professional class, growing old in the service of vice, whose reclamation consequently becomes more and more hope- less. The actual results of the reclamatory efforts in hospital under existing circumstances are therefore certainly not greater, and are probably less, than might have been attained without the machinery of the Acts. Regarding the facts, however, it appears from Capt. Harris's Report that in 1880 the total number of admissions of registered women to Return 1, col. 21-24. hospital in all districts was 3,316; and the total number of cases of such women who 'returned to friends,' &c., was 453, i.e., rather more than 13 jjer cent.; all the rest, 'the great majority,' returned to prostitution. In Plymouth the proportion is about the same Table— App. 1881, on the average. At Chatham it is on the average about 17 per cent. There Is no positive ''' evidence as to what proportion of the women -wlio ' returned to friends,' &c., were per- ^''' ^^^^- ^^^^' manently reclaimed, and there is great difficulty in obtaining such information ; all that 6904-18. even Inspector Anniss can say on the subject is that the reclaimed women did not return 35?l-2. 3694-3711. to prostitution within his district; and that in a^' large number of cases, but not all,' he knew they were permanently reclaimed, but no particulars of this knowledge were given. However, even in this case the ultimate operation and results are effected by charitable people, by whose aid the repentant women are really rescued when they leave the hospital, and by whose efforts alone they are, if at all, permanently reformed, although the admi- nistrators of the Acts now take credit for the whole work ; in addition to the unproved assumption that all women not known to return to prostitution are necessarily reclaimed. " The proportions of women reclaimed from voluntary Look Hospitals furnish a remark- able contrast to the Government Institutions. In the London Lock Hospital, the number of voluntary patients who during the year 1881 entered the Lock Asylum, or were sent to service, restored to friends, or sent to other homes, was about 75 per cent, of the total admissions, while the number of Government patients similarly disposed of was only about 1882: App. 8. 19 per cent, of those admitted for the first time, and only about 10 per cent, of the total number of registered women admitted. The Government women are admitted to hospital over and over again, many of them several times in the course of a year ; the voluntary j^atients from the hospital wards are only admitted once. The Government women Ev. 1882 : 12616. admitted to the Lock Asylum are of the ' better class,' and enter after a probationary training and testing. " In the voluntary Lock Hospital of the Rescue Society, the permanent reclamations App. 11, Ret. 9. amount to about 70 per cent, of the admissions. As already observed, that hospital is worked as a part of their general establishment of homes for rescue and reclamation of fallen -women. " The actual result of reclamatory efforts in Lock Hospitals under existing circumstances, therefore, clearly shows that the proportion of fallen women reclaimed without the machinery of the Acts is much larger than that effected with such aid — or, in other words, the system of the Acts is proved to have greatly increased the normal difficulty of rescuing and reclaiming women who have entered upon a career of prostitution. That 0.75. m appears IXXXU rilOCEEDINGS OF THE appears to be the inevitable result of sucli system, superadileil to the orJluary ileb;ising influences of that course of life. " Upon the whole, therefore, it appears, on a review of the evidence as to the beneficial effects alleged to have resulted from the operation of the Acts, that the only social or moral improvement which is attributabh' to the action of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police, is the incidental rescue of young girls from a j)robable career of vice ; but that such result have been effected without the aid of the essential, machinery of the Acts (viz., registration and periodical examination), and might have been accomplished by other means entirely independent of the police employed under the Acts. " In all other resiiects, the positive evidence on this branch of the subject clearly negatives the allegatitms as to the beneficial results of the operation of the yVcts, for it is clearly proved tiiat their tendency is neither to diminish vice nor to reclaim the vicious, but that in fact tiiey have had the contrary effect. " IV. — As TO CERTAIN ALLEGED EviL CONSEQUEXOES OE THE OPERATION OF THE Acts, and other Objections made to this Legislation. " 24. The jirincipal alJeuatious and objections made against the Acts arc the following: — " (1.) That the ^Vcts, and the statements of their administrators, have induced a popular belief that the system of controlled prostitution ihereby established affords protection against contagion of venereal diseases ; which belief has stimulated and increased sexual indulgence on the part of men. " (2.) That under the Acts prostitution has become a more lucrative, and tlierefore a more attractive, avocation for girls and women, whose reclamation has consequently become more difhcult. " (3.) That the system established in the adaiinistration of the Acts amounts practically to a license of prostitution and brothel keeping, which is scandalous in itself and injurious to public morality. " (4.) That the Acts violate the princijilcs of morality and true legislation, and of constitutional law. Ev 1881- 75-77 " (^-^ ^^® ^° ^'"^ point, the only positive evidence appears to us clearly to establish the 110-12. 512. 937-8. allegations. The medical witnesses who gave evidence against the Acts furnished actual instances within their own professional experience. The increase of vicious habits among the male population at Woolwioh — particularly young men— is also fully proved by other 8192-99. 820G-9. witnesses whose jirofessional duties afford si)ecial opportunities for observation. On the 8213. 846t-77. contrary there exists only opinion ; which in tlie case of otiicial witnesses is based on the theory that soldiers are neither deterred from fornication by fear of contagion, nor induced to indulge their passions by the prospect of immunity from disease- In tiie case of unofficial witnesses, such opinion rests upon the assumption that facts which they individually have not observed, necessarily do not exist. If the official theory Ijc sound, it denotes that the majority of soldiers have lost in their military education the ordinary Ev. 1881 : 8192. instincts of civilised and reasonable men. But the evidence shows that soldiers do think S619-35. about the matter, with the deplorable conclusion, that ' as the girls were provided for Ev. 1882: 1259-60. them,' there was no harm in visiting the brothels; ' they thought it was intended to visit tliem," and ' tliey did not think it a vice ; ' and that they act accordingly. Soldiers resort with prostitutes more generally and more openly than formerly, and without shame or Ev. 1882: 5963- concealment, ' on account of the provision which they consider is made for them,' and the fi004. ' men take note of the discharge of particular women from hospital. Such incidents are now the common talk of barrack-rooms, and the effect, especially on young recruits, is deplorable. " As to the male civil population, it is jjroved that many men actually utilise the pe- Ev. 1881 : 8758. riodical examination for their own vicious purposes. At Woolwich and Chatham men Ev. 1882: 1184. -wait near the examination place for the return of the women. Even at Plymouth, as Ev. 1881 : 4055-6. Inspector Anuiss admits, 'that women not knowing the regulations,' bring men with them. The practice there, at some time, must evidently therefure have been sufficiently extensive to be made the subject of regulation ; and, is probably now modified only so far 4Q55_ that the meeting takes place beyond sight of the officer stationed at the door. There had 7793-7801. 7921-4. "0*- been such a case for ' two months.' It is clear, therefore, from the evidence given on 8113-24.8161-62. the point, that the system of the Acts is appreciated by some men, at least ' cautious' ones, as affording a practical assurance of safety in sexual indulgence, which could not otherwise be so easily obtained. To the woman the incident of examination presents the opportunity of exacting liigher payment, which the man whose caution induces him to await the resuU of the examination is doubtless willing to make, in consideration of the certificate of fitness implied by her re-appearance ; and the total gain results to the woman, inasmuch as the work of examination is performed by the State gratuitously, 8210-12. 8823-6. The approval of the Acts by the registered prostitutes and brothel keepers is therefore Ev. 1882: 3891-3. quite intelligible; and the opinion that similar feelings prevail among the same class of persons SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixxxiii persons in other, subjected districts is only reasonable. Inspector Anniss also says his Ev. 1882: 10922. experience is that ' nien prefer women who are supposed to be free from disease. . . . 12076. It is generally known the women are more free from disea^se where the Acts are in opera- tion.' "If, therefore, it be true, as alleged by the supporters of the Acts, that while the 5017. present conditions of the community exist, prostitution will inevitably continue ; it appears equally true, that so long as the Acts remain in operation, viciously inclined men will regard those measures as affording the approved means of self indulgence, and will' act accerdingly. An actual and continuous increase of the class of vicious men is there- fore consequently insured by any such legislative scheme as that presented by these Acts. Moreover, the practical effect is to introduce sexual vice to the knowledge of youth at an Ev. 1882 : 4495-8. earlier period than they might otherwise acquire it, and thus to facilitate the incei:)tion of vicious practice. It is a sad but indubitable fact, that juvenile depravity is alarmingly Ev. 1882; 2030-1. increasing in subjected districts, whether it be confined to such places or not. 3243-54. " (2.) It is clear, also, that prostitutes registered under the Acts have consequently, by reason of their ' status ' as ' protected ' women, the means afforded to them of exactino- larger gains, both from better paying customers, as well as an increased clientile. The appa- rent improvement in personal appearance and domestic circumstances, effected bv the money thus gained, must certainly prove attractive to girls of the industrial classes, from whose crowded ranks the body of professed prostitutes is mainly recruited. It is undoubtedly the fact that benevolent efforts to reclaim fallen women are rendered more difficult by the apparent success of prostitution as an easy and pleasurable means of livelihood ; and con- sequently any system of regulating or dealing with this immoral trade which results in making 'the practice thereof more lucrative, will inevitably have the effect of attractino- into that life the idle and vain who might otherwise avoid it, in addition to the vicious, who would probably adopt it under other circumstances. " (3.) It appears from the evidence of Inspector Anniss, that under the administration of the Acts a systematic method of co-operation is practically established between the police on the one hand and the prostitutes and brothel keepers on the other. A system ^.^ ^ggj . 3194.5 of regular diurnal domiciliary visits to all the known (or registered) brothels is carried 3203. out, by permission of the brothel keepers, as the police have no legal right of entry ; by which means fresh prostitutes are discovered, and put (after caution) upon the register. To the brothel keeper the system is welcome, as affording an easy and cheap method of Ev. 1882 : 1231. protection, so far as the Contagious Diseases Acts' police are concerned ; for it is only when a brothel keeper criminally infringes the Acts — 2. e., by knowingly harbouring a diseased prostitute, or indiscreetly offends the administration (or the administrators) of 3952-3. the Acts — i. e., by disobeying police requirements — that penal proceedino-s ensue. Then, and then only, the delinquent is at the instigation of the Contagious Diseases Ev. 1882- 11922-44 Acts' police either placed out of ^bounds ' — which, being interpreted, means deprived ■ of the military and naval customers — or prosecuted by the local authorities. A threat of such jDroceedings is generally sufficient to compel compliance with the requirements of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police. Thus the law designed for suppressing vice is used by officers of the Executive as an instrument for regulating vice in open co-operation with Ev. 1881 : 39527. systematic law-breakers. There is no pretence of legality in such proceedings; 'it is 3203.3296.3432. matter of discipline.' Even the official instructions only sanction such domiciliary visits for the purpose of making ' the necessary communications ' to the women at home, instead of in the streets. But it is clear from the evidence that to a zealous officer the legal Ev. 1882 : 9156-8. power of enforcing a woman upon the register, at his discretion, is sufficient for all prac- tical purposes; and that his actual achievements by such means are approved and adopted by his superiors in the public service. To the community, however, the scandalous spectacle is afforded of open co-operation between the administrators of the law and those 80W93V ' ^^' who are in contemplation of law offenders against law and morality. For, while every brothel keeper is an offender, and every brothel an offence against the law, a certain ^v. 1882 : 1232-3. number of brothels and brothel keepers in each of the subjected districts are practically under the protection of the law, and are utilised by the administrators of the law as instru- ments for preventing, not vice itself, but certain physical consequences of vice. The registered prostitutes are also comprised in this scheme of co-operation, for practically they Ev. 1881 : 4013-4. act on behalf of the police as spies upon women and girls engaged clandestinely in pro- Ev. 1882: 6868-6919. stitution, and furnish information which, in some cases at least, is the undoubted invention 7312-5. of malice. It is remarkable that while the police invariably refuse to believe the asser- tions of any prostitute regarding herself, they seem ready to credit her statements respecting other women. The legal position is therefore at once both inconsistent and ^^- ^^^' = 5122-30. scandalous. And the system of toleration and co-operation thus established amounts in ^ * " ' reality to a ' license ' of brothel keeping and of prostitution. To the public, especially in ev. 1882 : 4501-12. the neighbourhood of these operations, the result of the whole system is necessarily de- ev. I88I: 5056.6731. moralising. The frequent domiciliary visits of the police to the brothels, the regular concourse'of women on examination days, escorted or accosted by men, and som'etimes 8214.8545.4060-8. accompanied by open exhibitions of indecency both of action and speech, and the occa- 8210. sional forcible removal of an unwilling woman to hospital, all necessarily exercise a demoralising influence among the poor and ill-educated in the vicinity, es'pecially the younger persons of both sexes, and familiarise them with vicious ideas, which have their legitimate consequences in scenes which are a public scandal, and disgraceful to civili- 7774. sation. It is true the police do not appear in uniform (except at Aldershot), but they App. 487, s. 2. soon become known in the neighbourhood. Moreover, the default of uniform induces ev. 6893-4. 7047-50. 0.75. m 2 -. impersonation, Ixxxiv PROCEEDINGS OF THE App. 481. impersonation, for purposes citiier of indecency or fraud, in one case apparently with both F.v. 7050. objects. Even Inspector Anniss himself lias been the subject of impersonation, although 11132-C. 67Co-(i, ^ic nevertheless defends the practice of appearing without uniform (uliicii was condemned by the Koyal Commission). " 25. (4.) The various objections ursrcd by the opponents of the Acts, on the general oTOund of the violation of moral legislative and constitutional principles involved therein, are fully stated in the evidence, and may be briefly snnnnarized under the following heads of particulars in which such violation is principally alleged, viz. : — " (« ) In making provision on the subject of sexual vice, not for its suppression or punishment, but only for preventing the physical co'isequences of vice. " (b.) In dealing, with such object, unef|ually with the two parties concerned in such vice, by imposing an obligation — in itself inmioral, and therefore illegal — upon one class (i.e., certain women") of the community, for ihe benefit of another (vicious men, particularly of the national forces) ; and for tiie jnirpose of carrying out such enforced obligation, subjecting the servient class to penal conscq^iences, involving the loss of personal liberty, and imjiosing obstacles to tlie abandonment of their career of vice. " (c.) In entrusting the officials charged with the administration of these measures with arbitrary discretion uniireccdented in law, irresponsible in practice, and mis- chievous in results. " As to («.) It is proved by Captain Harris's returns, that out of the total number of 504,607 examinations actually made, the women in 457,243 cases were found free from disease, and accordingly dismissed ; in the remaining cases, about one-tenth of the whole, the women went into hospital. Therefore, on the average, in about nine- tentlis of the whole number of cases, the examinations were practically made for the absolutely immoral purpose of ascertaining that the women were in a condition physically fit to carry on their immoral trade of prostitutes. " {h.) It is impossible to deny, from the evidence adduced on tlie subject, that some weight is to be attached to these objections. And it is indeed remarkable that the scheme of legslation should have been strictly limited to the examination of women, in face of tlie strong rcconnnendations for tiie co-ordinate examination of soldiers expressed by the Army authorities and Medical and Parliamentary Com- mittees, on the result of whose investigations the Acts were framed. '•■ (c.) There can be no doubt that very large discretionary powers are vested by the Acts in the police and other otHcials engaged in their administration, wliich are practically capalilc of abuse beyond the extent of any allegations yet made against Ev. 1882 ; 7319-28. those officcrs. The mere fact of watching in jilain clotiies the coming and going, and making notes concerning young women, many of whom they admit to be respectable, is an exercise of discretion evidently liable to sei'ious objection and considerable abuse. The Acts leave the police free to institute proceedings against any woman whom thc}^ niay believe to be a ' common j)rostitnte,' and to institute proceedings against such person, with a view to her registration, without having actual proof of any specific act of prostitution. It is clear from the evitleuce adduced, that, notwith- standing the abundant caution on their part which is prescribed by the authorities, and stimulated by the vigilance of public observation, the police are liable to error in laying informations, which may in fact prove to be unfounded when projierly tested by judicial investigation. 1881: 6932. "In cases of ' voluntai-y submission' the police are free to exercise any influence or representation to induce the suspected woman to sign the document ; and are, moreover, App. 20, p.4S7,"scc, 10. at liberty to insert any term, not exceeding 12 calendar montlis, as tlie period of sub- mission. In practice it appears tliat in many cases the signature of this document is the result of representations which amount to threats of a magistrate's order in the event of refusal; indeed, the official instructions to the police imply that this is the established order of procedure, viz.: — ' It is desirable that all common prostitutes should be brought ■jotc cc -ao- under the Acts by voluntary submission, but if am/ refuse to submit volunturili/, the 7350-OD. / 82 / . . . .; . . *', ,• n /» i • , i ^ • , t i Commissioners authority is to be.appliedior to bring them beiore a magistrate. In these cii'cumstances it is not surjn-ising to find that cases have occurred wherein the women declared that they did not know the nature of the document they signed ; some even denied the signature ; dtherci that they did not understand the nature of the examination; 6808 6935-9 ^^'^ Others that they did not realise the obligation of continued and jieriodicai examina- tion. In the majority of cases, moreover, the full term of 12 months is inserted by the police, without consulting the women ; mdeed, at Southampton, formerly, that term was printed in the form of submission. Ev. 1881 : 6963-6970. " The police at Aldershot appear to have a special coercive method of procedure. The App. 19, p. 473. documentaiy evidence furnished by Mr. Shaen, as to the cases of Mrs. Percy (^who was 1881 : 6976-6980. found drowned after being threatened with a summons), and Ellen Yokes, show that they commenced proceedings in those cases by warning persons who employed the suspected women against continuing such emjiloyment ; and followed that step by a summons to the police station, and there trying to induce her to sign ; on refusal, the statutory summons was taken out. " The SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixxxv " The case of Mrs. Percy was not further investigated, but with respect to Votes' ^^_ jgg, ^^^^ case the police inspector was called before the Committee, and stated that he personally had not adopted the ii-regular course complained of. But he was not aware whether any subordinate officer had done so, and as the constable who alone is alleged to have com- mitted the act was not called, the charge is practically unanswered. " At Dover other methods of compelling a ' voluntary submission ' are adopted. In one case two police officers even pursued a suspected girl (named Burley) through the streets:, until she threw herself into the dock, when they withdrew while she was rescued from drowning by some civilians, In a more recent case, a written direction or order ' to attend' at the examination room was served by the Dover police on a girl named Southey, suspected by them of ])rostitution. She did not obey this illegal order, where- upon the statutory summons was taken out. On hearing the case for the prosecution the magistrates dismissed the summons. The incident was reported to the Committee, who Ev. issa-. win. le 19 then fully investigated the matter. The evidence given by the Contagious Diseases Acts 23, and 26 May. police before the magistrates was repeated by them (on oath), but it was supplemented by other evidence which was not adduced before the bench, although it was at that time fully known to the Contagious Diseases Acts police. The evidence on the part of the girl fully confirmed the view taken by the magistrates, that no case whatever had been made out against her as being a ' common known prostitute.' " At Chatham, in the case of Caroline Wybrow, a series of unauthorised acts was com- mitted by the officials. The police 'warned' her up 'for examination' before she had signed any submission, accompanied by the intimation that she would be seut to Maidstone ^ (gaol) if she did not attend. She attended, but on her refusal to be examined, she was an'd 6. " ''''' sent unlawfully into hospital for detention, although there was no evidence nor any reason- « g , ^ able ground for belief (^according to the Home Secretary) that she was diseased. On Ditto, par." 3! further refusal she was, moreover, illegally punished by being put on low diet. On her ultimate submission to examination under protest, she was found to have no disease. The ^^ i?32; 9793. medical officer admitted, indeed, that she might possibl}' be a virgin. " The illegal practice of ' warning ' or directing, either by oi'al or written order, sus- Ev. ]S82 : 11959-64. pected women to attend at the police station or the examination place for the purpose of being induced to sign the voluntary submission is apparently still the current practice in all districts, although it was condemned by the Home Secretary in 1876, and instructions 100o4. to the contrary directed. All that has been done is to issue a new regulation quite re- cently, that the submission form shall be signed by the woman and attested by the police in the presence of the visiting surgeon. That regulation is now followed at Chatham, and at Plymouth, ' if practicable.' " The effect of Section 6 of the Act of 1869 is to make the so-called ' voluntary sub- mission,' which is undoubtedly in many cases obtained by procedure which practically amounts to compulsion, as binding as a magistrate's order. It is not, therefore, a volun- 6830-34. tary submission, for if voluntary it would necessarily be revocable at will, " The abuse of discretionary power is not, however, confined to the police, for some 6958-61.6783. 679i. magistrates also have, in their discretion, made orders against women under the Acts, not- ^^^^-s. withstanding that the allegation of ijrostitutiou has not been substantiated by evidence ; K'^e-esoo and there is no appeal from such decisions. The magistrate may sit alone ; he may appoint any place for the hearing, and such place is not even to be deemed an open court, unless the accused demand it ; but no duty is imposed on any person to inform her of her ^''■' ^l^^- 6812-3. right in this respect. It is a remarkable and objectionable fact that three visiting h. C.'coid. 1869- surgeons appointed under the Acts have been made magistrates, in accordance with re- 719. commendations to that effect officially made, and as such are legally qualified to adjudicate ^^°y- *^'""-' *^^' in all cases. It is remarkable, also, that while the police are authorised voluntarily to institute proceedings which result in putting a woman on the register, neither they, nor even the magistrates, have any power spontaneously to remove her name from the register, even although the woman has in fact ' ceased to be a common prostitute.' If such a Act, 1SC6: see. 2«. woman absent herself fi'om, or refuse to submit to examination, she ipso facto infringes the Act, and is punishable accordingly. If she desire to be relieved from examination, she must apply in writing to a justice (or visiting surgeon), who will 'hear the application,' A.<:', 1S66 : sec. 33-4. and at his discretion make, or refuse, an order for relief. The police have no duty ^"''A^ff' ^fn',n'rn-r imposed on them by the Acts 01 instructing the women m the process 01 getting oii 7166-71. 7186-7. the register ; and, indeed, they are shown in some cases to have withheld such informa- 7790-3. 6814-18. tion. " Although a woman discharged from hospital is then legally free from the Acts, she Ev I882 : 4439-45. is generally practically within the sphere of their operation, and the usual result is formal ° ° ~ • re-submission. " In answer to the objections made by the opponents of the Acts to the statutory pro- ^^- ^^^2 : 10936. visions on the subject of relief from examination as practically opposing obstacles to the voluntary relinquishment of a career of prostitution, Inspector Anniss stated that, as a matter of fact, if a woman in his district wishes to leave her immoral life, or gets married, or goes to service, she merely applies to him, and he immediately removes her name from the register ; she never makes a written application unless she continues living in a brothel. This summary procedure is not only a clear infringement of the Statute, but it also amounts to a confession that the provisions of the Acts do in fact constitute obstacles which are better avoided. But the substitution of a police code of discretion for the requirements of the law is in itself a dangerous innovation. " Again, the nature and method of the personal introspection, vaguely described in the 0.75. m 3 Acts -•ict, 1866 : sec. 42 Ev. 1 881 : 6823. Ixxxvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE Acts and the form of submission, and also tlie magistrate's order as a ' periodical medical Ev. 1831 : 7367. 736S. examination,' is left entirely to tuc individual discretion of each visiting surgeon. But in every c:\sc the examination is surgical, and, in nearly all cases, instrumental. The Royal Com. Report, official witnosscs iiidccd regard the ins])ccti()n as similar in every respect to the V^r.48. examination of virtuous women, by an ordinary medical practitioner ; thus overlooking entirely the essentially different object and intention in each case, which have been already noticed by the Report of the lloyal Commissioners. 'Assuming that in cither case the operation is conducted with an equal regard to decency, tlie object with which it is performed makes all the difference. In the one case the examination is voluntary, occa- sional, and may never bo rei)eatcd. In the other, the examination is comi>ulsory and regular, and instituted, not because the woman is diseased, or evei^ suspected of being diseased, but because she may be diseased.' " The Regulations for the management of the Hospitals certified under tlie Acts appeal', so far as disclosed to the Committee, to render the detention in hospital jiractically an Ev. 1881 : 68i2-fisi3. imprisonment during the i)eriod of curc. Without exjircss permission, patients are. not App. 1879: No. 10. allowed conununication, even by letter, with persons outside, and no'visitors are admitted to the wards ; letters are opened, read, and delivered at the discretion of tlie chaplain or matron ; and the only jiersons to whom comi)laint is allowed are the ofhcers themselves, Ev. 1881 : 6809-681 1. ^° ^hat complaint of their conduct to an independent authority is quite impossible* 8050-51. ' Proof that these stringent regulations produce practical injustice was furnished by Mr. Shaen. " While ' discretion ' is thus practically the only limit of the authority of the various officials engaged in the administration of the Acts, the right of action of persons aggrieved by their proceedings is stringently, and even abuormallj-, limited. The requisite notice si^Si-l.' ' ''^"°"''®"^" of action often precludes redress altogether. In any case the defendant can plead generally that the alleged injurious act was done in execution, or intended ' execution,' of the Statute. Thus, practically, discretion may not only be exercised, but may be pleaded as a sufficient answer to an action. Even in the event of success, a plaintiff must suffer pecuniary loss in costs ; while the full reimbursement of a successful defendant is ensured. However, presuming that the object of this unique enactment was to afltbrd complete jirotection to the administrators of the Acts in any circumstances, practically it possesses certainly the exceptional merit of having been entirely successful. " 26. The various objections entertained by a larj^e number of persons of all classes to the legislation in question, has induced the formation of many associations throughout Ev. 1882: 5278-80. the kingdom for the repeal of the Acts. They include one association of women, called ^280. the Ladies' National Association, whose opinions on the essential features of the Acts have been forcibly expressed by Mrs. Josephine ^ntlcr ; and one association of medical practitioners, the'Nalional Medical Association, located at Liverpool. The repeal move- ment also includes the systematic and continuous action of many religious bodies on the subject. The movement has resulted in the presentation to Parliament of an enormous number of petitions, and of many memorials, &c., to the Prime Minister and the Home 4544. Secretary. It appears from the evidence of the representative ministers of the principal App. 13-22. , Nonconformist Churches in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, that they have all Ev. 1882: 5312-5326. passed resolutions Condemning the Acts, and praying for repeal. Of the clergy of the Established Church of England, about 2,000 have signed a memorial in favour of repeal to the Prime Minister (in 1873), comprising many distinguished names, and also that Ev 1882- A No 310 clergy of London alone have signed a petition to the like ettect. A return jn-oved 23^.' ■ '*''■ ' °' by Mr. Bunting shows that the total number of petitions presented between 1870 to 1881 Ret. 1. was 10,13.5, containing a gross total of nearly two and a quarter millions of signatures. Ret. 2. Q^- ^i^ggg ^ considerable portion came from subjected districts. One of the petitions, signed by women only, had the enormous number of 248,000 signatures. On the other Ev.V3i'2-9. hand, all the petitions presented against repeal amount only to 45, with 3,579 signatures. The majority of these, containing 3,266 sigmitures, were presented in 1872, and included no less than 1,112 signatures of women registered 'under the provisions of the Acts.' As to the opinion of the medical profession, there is no doubt that the majcn-ity are in favour of the existing system under the Acts, and probably many reasons conduce to this Ev. 1881 : 17,_^8. rggult. However, in Liverpool, where the subject has been much discussed among V. 1 82: 1230/-13. Q,gj;(,jji j^gQ^ professional opinion is divided in the proportion of 174 in favour of the system to over 100 against it. But a petition in favour of repeal has recently been pre- sented from medical men in Belfast, signed by about two-thirds of the practitioners there. " The general opinion of the majority of the inhabitants in the subjected districts is stated by witnesses of local knowledge to be in favour of the Acts, although that evidence is not supported by the results of public meetings in those places generally, or of the petitions therefrom. But, if the fact be as stated, some reasons are apparent for such opinion, arising principally from the connection and dependence of a large propor- tion of the population of such places on the naval and military establishments, with which the administration of the Acts is associated, and other circumstances, one influential con- sideration being that, under the existing system, the poor rates are relieved from the former burdens incident to the treatment of diseased prostitutes in the workhouse in- firmaries of those places. ^ "25. To SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Ixxxvii " 27. To sum np, the following conclusions appear to be established by the evi- dence : "♦I. That even under the unusual conditions obtaining in favour of the stations protected" by the Acts, venereal disease in the home army has not substantially diminished in those stations to a gi-eater comparative extent than in the stations not under the Acts, except in the one particular of ' non-syphilitic ' sores. " II. That the per-centage of cases of disease among the registered women has increased continuously during several years, and is still increasing. " III. That the only real good effected by the police employed under the Acts is entirely beyund the scope of their statutory duties, and could be better effected by other means. " IV. That the religious, moral, and constitutional objections presented to the Acts, and the system established under the Acts, are valid in principle, and are confirmed by the practical results of their operation. " We are of opinion, therefore, that these conclusions afford ample reasons for the repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts." Motion made, and Question proposed. That tlie Draft Report proposed by the Chair- man be now read a second time, pai-agraph by paragraph — (The Chairman).— Amend- ment proposed to leave out the words " The Chairman," in order to insert the words " Mr. Stansfeld " — {Mr. Stansfeld) — instead thereof. — Question put. That the words " The Chairman " stand part of the Question, — The Committee divided : Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. i\1r. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Ayes, 8. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichtou. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Ml'. Cavendish Bentinck- Main Question put, and agreed to. Paragraphs 1 — 4, agreed to. Paragraph 5, amended, and agreed to. ' Paragraph 6.— Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out from the word " Countries " to xheend of the paragraph~(Mr. Stansfeld).— Question put, That the words "your Committee stand part of the paragraph.— The Committee divided : Ayes, 8. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 7. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Amendments made.— Question put, That the paragraph, as amended, stand part of the proposed lieport. — The Committee divided : 0.75. Ayes, 8. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Sir Henry Wolff. m 4 Noes, 7. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph <^^ Ixxxviii PROCEEDINGS OF THE Paragraph 7, at/reed to. Paragraph 8, disagreed to. Paragraiih 9, agreed to. I'aragraph 10, ftmended, and agreed to. Paragraph 11, agreed to. Paragraplis 12 — 13, amended, and agreed to. Paragraplis 14—17, agreed to. Paragraphs 18 — 20, amended, and agreed to. Paragraphs 21 — 24, agreed to. Paragraph 25, amended. — Amendment proposed, in line G, after the word "cxami- nation," to insert the words : " they stated also that there was no distinet evidence that any diminution of tlie disease among the men of the Army and Navy which may have taken pKice was attributable to a diminuticm of disease consequent upon tlie eystem of periodical examination among tlie women with whom they consorted" — (Mr. Stansfeld). — Question put, " That those words be there inserted." — The Committee divided: Ayes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. Willi;nn Fowler. Mr. Hop wood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragrajih further amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 26, agreed to. Noes, 9. Dr. Farf|uharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Buluer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir lieury AVolft'. Paragraph 27. — Amendment proposed, after the word " syphilis," to insert tlie words "Non-syphilitic sores''— CSlr. .Stansfeld).— Question put, "That those words be there inserted." — The Committee divided: Ayes, G, Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Plopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Noes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby, Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Slorgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. An Amendment made. — Another Amendment proposed, in line 30, after the word "this" to insert the words " On the other hand the Keport cites the Official Report of Mr. Simon, the iMedical Officer of the Privy Council, who did not consider that the evil was of such magnitude as to justify the interference of the State, and also the opinion of Mr. Skey, the Chairman of the Medical Committee appointed by Government to inquire as to this disease, who eni'orced the views of himself and several leading members of the profession that the disease is by no means so common or universal as is represented. Surgeon-Major Wyatt, of the Coldstream Guards, quite concurred with Mr. Skey, that the disease appeared of late to have much diminished in its virulence independently of the Act, and that such was the opinion of all surgeons, both civil and military" — (Mr. Stansfeld). — Question put. That those words be there inserted. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Noes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mv. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Question SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS- Ixxxix stand jDart of the proposed Report. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hop wood, Mr. Stansfeld. Question put. That the paragraph, as amended. The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 28 — 29, agreed to. Paragraph 30. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Eeport. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 10. Noes, 5. Dr. Farquharson. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. Burt. General Burnaby. Mr. W. Fowler. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Hopwood. Viscount Crichton. Mr. Stansfeld. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 31. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. — The Committee divided : Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 32, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 33 — 34, agreed to. Paragrapli 35. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proijosed Report.- The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne iM organ. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 36. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr: William Fowler, Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. AVilliam Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. 0.75. Paragrapli PR0CEEDIKG8 OF THE Paragraph 37, agreed to. Parasraph 38. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Keport. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Ml-. Buhvcr. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. JNlr. "William Fowler. Mr. 1 1 op wood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 39. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report.- The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr- Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 40. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. The Committee divided: Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson, General Burnaby. Mr. Buhver. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 41. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report.- The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwev. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff . Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Amendment proposed. That the following new paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report: — " Great reliance ^\ as placed by the opponents of the Acts in the fact that soldiers coming into the protected districts were subjected to medical examination, whereas soldiers coming into the unprotected districts were not so subjected. Your Committee are unable to recognise this force of the argument. If valued at all, it w ould seem to tell unfairly against those subjected districts, as soldiers so examined and found diseased, would be at once sent to hospital, and would then swell the number of men returned as under hospital treatment in those districts, although their diseases were contracted outside of them" — (Mr. Osborne SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT.S xcl Osborne Morgan). — Question put, That the paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 42. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farqviharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henrv Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr, William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 43 . — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 44. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 45. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. WiUiam Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld, 0.75. n2 Paragraph PROCEEDINGS OP THE Paragraph 46.— Qucstiou put, That the pai'agraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farqiiliarson. General Burnaby. !Mr. Bulwcr. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne i\Iorgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hop wood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 47. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9, Dr. Farquliarson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Ernest Noel. Cameron. Burt. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Mr Dr. Mr, Mr Pai-acraph 48.— Question put. That the paragraph stand part of tlie proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquliarson. Generiil Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. INIr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragrai^h 49.— Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquliarson. General Burnaby. JMr. Bulwcr. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff Paragraph 50. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Noes, G. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Ml-. Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farcjuharson. General Burnaby. !Mr. Bulwer. A'iscouiit Crichton. Col.'ucl Digby. Colonel Tottenham. My. Osborne jNIorgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir [Jenry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Ihirt. Mr. AVilliiim Fowlei'. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragrapli SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Paragraph 51. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. — The Committee divided : Ayesj 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry WolfF. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 52, amended. — Question put. That the paragraph, as amended, stand part of the proposed Keport. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Bumaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood, Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 53. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6 Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Amendment proposed. That the following new paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report : — " To this saving ought to be added the gain to the service derived from the increased immunity of the men from the various debilitating and incapacitating disorders which, though not classed as venereal diseases, not unfrequently result therefrom" — (Mr. Osborne Morgan). — Question put. That the paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report. — The Committee divided : Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Ma. Osborne jSIorgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Amendment proposed, That the following new paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report: — " Putting the last consideration aside, and taking the saving at 5'38 per 1,000, the average number of men in the subjected districts being about 50,000, the saving on this calculation would be 269 men ; as, however, the cost of working the Contagious Diseases Acts amounts to 30,000 /. a year, the saving would seem to have been purchased at the rate of over 110 /. per man. From a financial point of view, therefore, your Com- 0.75. n 3 mittee PROCEEDIXGS OF THE mittee cannot regard this result as particularly satisfactory" — (Dr. Cameron). — Question put, That the paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report. — 'Hie Committee divided: Ayes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt.- Mr. "William Fowler. Mr. Ilopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Noes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendisli Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 54. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. , Viscount Crichton. j Colonel Digby. I Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne ^Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 55. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided: Noes, 6. TMr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hop wood. Mr. Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquhar.'^on. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Totteneam. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 56. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of tlie proposed Rei^ort. -The Committee divided: Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld, That the following new paragraph be inserted in the proposed Amendment proposed. Report : — " Evidence was given showing a decrease in the number of admissions to the female Lock Hospital at Glasgow, and it was asserted that the system of police surveillance pre- vailing in that town had led to a considerable diminution of disease. Your Committee have observed that the administration of Glasgow aims mainly at th^ repression of jjublic prostitution. It does not let the Acts provide any organisation by which women who choose to lead a life of prostitution privately, and without attracting public notice, can be brought under supervision. It is, therefore, impossible in the case of a town circum- stanced like Glasgow to infer from the returns of a public Lock hospital what the extent of disease may be among women who court privacy, and therefore do not enter such institutions. Besides, no satisfactory evidence was given as to the amount of disease amongst the male population, an element without which it is absolutely impossible to measure SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. measure the real amount and intensity of venereal disease in any locality, or the success of any system for its diminution " — (The Chairmnn). — Question put, That the paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report. — The Committee divided: Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Amendment proposed, That the followi ng new paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report : — " It is alleged that disease has shown a tendency to increase among registered women, and that the cause of its increase is the diminished number of prostitutes in subjected stations. It is to be observed(l) that the actual number of women who contract and propagate the disease is admittedly diminished; (2) that though the cases are more numerous in proportion to the diminished number of prostitutes, the disease is milder in form, and is arrested before it has become virulent, and inflicted the injuries which result from neglected conta- gion ; (3) that notwithstanding the increase in the number of admissions to hospital among a given number of registered women in a given period, venereal disease among soldiers has diminished. This proves that hygienic purposes are better served bj^ the presence of a reduced number of prostitutes, liable to increase risks of the recurrence of disease in a mild form, but subject to careful medical treatment, than by the presence of a large number of prostitutes in a chronic state of neglected disease" — (The Chairman). — Ques- tion put, That the paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Ho])wood. Mr- Stansfeld. . Paragraph 57.- -Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff, Paragraph 58. — Question pi\t, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. -The Committee divided: Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. 0.75. n4 Paragraph PROCEEDINGS OF THE Para<»rai)h 59. — Question put, That the paragi-aph stand part of the proposed Keport. -The Committee divided: Ayes, 9. Dr. Fiiniuharson. Gencrul Burnaby. Mr. Buhver. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. ]Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendisli Bentinck. Sir Heniy Wolfl^ Noes, 6. "Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Jiurt. Mr. AVilliam Fowler. Mr. Ilopwood. iMr. Stansfeld. Paragraphs 60 — 61, agreed to. Paragraph 62, amended. — Question put. That the paragraph, as amended, stand i)art of the proposed Keport. — The Committee divided: Ayes, 9. Dr. Farcjuharson. General Bui'naby. !Mr. Buhver. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digb}-. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Paragraph 63. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Ecpovt. — The Committee divided: Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Jlr. Burt. Mr. "William Fowle Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. "William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farcjuharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Buhver. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne INIorgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry "Wolff. Paragraph 64, amended. — Another Amendment proposed in page 54, line 8, after the word " satisfactory," to insert the words, " In all these cases, except the Dover case, here- after referred to, the evidence brought forward to inculpate the police was purely hearsay evidence, or did not admit of being tested by cross-examination, and was, tiierefore, open to all the dbjections which apply to such evidence. Great stress was laid on the case of Caroline Wybrow, which occurred in the beginning of 1875. In this instance a careful consideration of the entire case has led your Committee to the conclusion that although certain irregularities were proved to have occurred, neither the medical authorities nor the police are open to serious censure. Your Committee feel bound to observe that the coni])laints made by the girl herself of her treatment was not made for several months after the occurrence to which they related, and that lier most important statements were directly contradicted by reliable witnesses " — (Mr. Osborne Morgan).— Question put, That those words be there inserted. — The Committee divided: Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. ]Mr. "William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr, Stansfeld. Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Buhver. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr, Osboi-ne Morgan, Mr, Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Another Amendment proposed at the end of the paragraph, to add the words, " The contention referred to in a previous paragraph, that the diminution in the number of prostitutes caused by the Acts has increased disease amongst registered women, virtually admits that the system has not had ihe effect of increasing clandestine pros- titution to any considerable extent. If, as is alleged, clandestine prostitution grows in subjected districts as open prostitution diminishes, the increase in the amount of disease among registered women cannot proceed from the cause to which it is sometimes ascribed, namely. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. namely, the diminished number of women consorting with the soldiers "—(The (Jhairman). — Question put, That those words be there added. — The Committee divided : Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digbj\ Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Question put. That the paragraph, as amended, stand part of the proposed Keport. -The Committee divided: Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph fi5.— Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Eeport. -The Committee divided: Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 66. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Keport, -The Committee divided ; Ayes, 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron, Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 67. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. — The Committee divided : Ayes 9. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Bulwer. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Sir Henry Wolff. Noes, 6. Mr. Ernest Noel. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfeld. Paragraph 68. — Amendment proposed, at the end of Sub-section {b) to add the following words : " Attention was called to the fact that some women remain on the register up to a more advanced age than formerly ; this is attributable, not to the so-called hardening effect of the Acts which have proved powerful for purposes of reclamation, but to the improved health of the women and their freedom from neglected disease, which In former 0.75. times PROCEEDIN"GS OF Tire times cut sliort uot only the career, but the life of the prostitute at an early age " — (The Chairman). — Question put. That those words be there added. — The Committee divided: Noes, 5. Ayes, 7. Dr. Farquhurson. General JJurnaby. Mr. Bulwcr. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgau. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Mr. Mr. Mr. xMr. Cameron. Burt. AVilliam Fowler. Houwood. Stansf'eld. Question put. That the paragraph, as amended, stand part of ihe proposed Report. — The Ccramittee divided : Aye.«, 7. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Buhver. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digl>y. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Noes, 5. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. Mr. William Fowler. jMr. Hopwood. Mr. Stansfcld. Paragraph 69. — Question put. That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. The Committee divided : Aysis, 7. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. Mr. Buhver. A^'iscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Sir. Cavendish Bentinck. Noes, 5. Dr. Cameron. Mr. Burt. ^Ir. William Fowler. J\lr. Hoj)wood. Mr. Stausfeld. Paragraph 70. — Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the proposed Report. The Committee divided : Ayes, 7. Dr. Farquharson. General Burnaby. INIr. Bulwcr. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Cavendi.ring out the fact that you differ from Mr. Anniss as regards the effect of the Contagious Diseases Acts police on the condition of the town of Plymouth, and that you attribute the change and improvement lliat has taken place as regards the oi-der and decency of the town, and as regards the shutting up of these houses, to the action of the ordinary law, which is independent of the Contagious Diseases Acts and not to these Acts at all ? — Yes. Dr. Farqnh arson. 189. Have you any connection at all with the action of the Contagious Diseases Regulations in Plymouth and Devonport? — No. 190. Then what is your position exactly with reference to Mr. Anniss ; are you entirely dis- tinct from him ? — Yes ; entirely. 191. Y'ou are conducting your operations entirely separately ? — Yes. Dr. Farquharson — continued. 192. Mr. Anniss, in his evidence, talked of his reducing the number of brothels, and you say that you reduce them? — Certainly. 193. Mr. Anniss also claims the credit of having reduced them by his action? — He assumes 80. 194. For instance, at Question 3168, he is asked this: "You visited the brothels for lour years before the Acts came into operation, but not having then the powers which were after- wards given to you by the Acts, you were unable to reduce tlie number of either ihe brothels or the common women ?" You consider that Mr. Anniss's action has had nothing to do with the reduction of brothels in those places that you speak off — Not at all, or not directly ; I do not know what he may have done indirectly. 195. You having been connected with Ply- mouth and Devonjjort for 1 9 years, do you remember the condition of things before and after the Acts came into operation? — Yes; I know it from 1863. 196. Is there any difference in the condition of the town before and after the Acts came into operation? — Yes, there is not at all so much disorder now; it is very much more orderly, especially in certain parts of the town. 197. There is less molestation in the streets on the part of the prostitutes ? — Taking the numbers, I rather doubt that. There is less, certainly. 198. At all events the number of brothels has been largely diminished? — Yes. 199. And also the number of prostitutes? — Yes. 200. Then to what do you attribute the reduc- tion in the number of brothels and the number of prostitutes? — I attribute the reduction of brothels a great deal to the action we have taken. 201. Have you had any increased powers con- ferred upon you in conse([uence of the introduc- tion of the Contagious Diseases Act ?^No. 202. Then why is it that such a veiy sudden diminution of prostitution and of the number of brothels took place within the few years following the operation of the Acts? — In the first place the Plymouth j)olice was augmented, and there was some new blood brought in. There was a new superintendent and several new officers, and the watch conunittee took it upon them to have better order maintained in the streets, and that those places should be prosecuted under thisbye- law^ Previouslv to 1865 thai was never done. 203. Might you not have taken advantage of your undoubted power to check prostitution and brothels before 1865 ? — No, not at all. 204. Then you cannot explain why this sudden change took place coincident with the introduction of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I cannot. 205. AVould you admit that the Contagious Diseases Acts and the operation of the police, &c., have sti.nulated the ordinary machinery of the law into fresh activity? — Not that I am aware of. As far as I am personally concerned I know it has not ; I have always carried out the duties straightforwardly. 206. You are quite unable to explain the ex- traordinary increase of activity on the part of the police at Plymouth and Devonport coincident with SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 10 March 1882.] Mr. Wreford. [ Continued, Dr. Farquliarson — continued, with the passing of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I can only say, as I said before, tiirough several new officers being appointed. 207. For what reason ? — Because the old superintendent died, and they augmented the force, and they had in two or three new inspectors from outside, some from Cornwall and one from Wales. Ml". Cavendish Bentinch. 208. You mean that the force was made more efficient ? — Yes. Dr. Farquharson. 209. Do you not think that the fact of their being a special police force for regulating prosti- tution in Plymouth and Devonport might have a good effect upon the order of the town ; I mean upon the order of the prostitutes? — No, not in the streets, because however disorderly they were they would never interfere with them. 210. The existence of this special police would have no effect upon their minds ? — I could not go so far as that. 211. I think you said that, in your operations, you receive very little assistance from the officers of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — We do not. 212. Supposing that there were no officers of the Contagious Diseases Acts in Plymouth and Devonport, would your ordinary staff be sufficient, without these Contagious Diseases Acts' police- men, to carry out these operations of keeping order and cliecking prostitution?— Certainly ; they have notlimg whatever to do with keepins order ; I do not think it would make the least difference ; their duties now are so very different. 213. You get no assistance from them in any way ? — Not at all, 214. They do not assist you in finding out what are brothels and what are not ? — Not at all. 215. With the powers that you possess, how could you find out whether women are actually prostitutes or not? — We could find out if they were frequently in brothels, or in any other place with different men. 216. How could you find out whether new comers to the town are prostitutes or not ? — You know pretty well where to find them. We do not go like the Contagious Diseases Acts' policemen do, and inquire whether there are any strangers there. 217. Do you visit brothels occasionally to find out whether the inmates are actually engaged in prostitution ? — Only in cases of disorder. 218. What evidence have you to bring for- ward as to whether women are prostitutes or not ? — If we find them frequentlj' in brothels, and if we find men in bed with them there. That is generally the evidence that the officers get. Perhaps a robbery occurs, or there may be some disorder going on, and they visit the place, and they find three or four men there. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 219. They would not go in, unless there was some ostensible cause ? — Not as a rule, unless we know it to be a very bad house, and they have orders to pay particular attention to it. 0.75. Dr. Farquharson. 220. jNIr. Anniss says, that one of the benefits of the Acts, in his opinion, is that parents often ajDply to him for information about their children who have gone astray, and that he, from his faci- lities for observation, is able to tell them where they are ; do the parents come to you in the same way ? — Yes, repeatedly. 221. As regards the members of your force whom you select for this particular duty, in con- nection with brothels and prostitution, do you pick them out specially ? — ]S' o, it is done in t'ne ordinary course of duty. Of course we expect the officers to take the leading part, either the out-door inspector or the Serjeant. 222. The contagious diseases' constables are specially picked out, particularly competent men, and married; are your men married men? — Some of them are. 223. But you have not mady any selection ? — Not at all. If I was going to send a man to search a brothel, I should of course pick out a man who I knew would do it properly. 224. Have you heard in Plymouth or Devon- port any complaint of the metropolitan police towards the women ? — No, nothing authenti- cated. 225. You never heard of anything harsh or oppressive in the action of the police under the Contagious Diseases Acts? — Perhaps there may have been iu the first two or three years, but nothing particular. 226. You would be likely to hear if anything of the kind took place ? — Yes. 227. Coming to those women whom you say have been reformed, but who have been again convicted of having returned to prostitution, was there any evidence of their having returned to prostitution beyond the fact of being seen in the streets ? — No. 228. Then they vrere convicted, not for prosti- tution, but disorderly conduct in the streets ? — Yes. 229. Then there was no evidence that they had returned to prostitution? — No, but it was very well known to the local police that virtually they had not left it. 230. Have they not left the town, and gone away somewhere else ? — I very much question it, except they have been sent to prison, perhaps, for six months. 231. How could they have escaped coming on the register ? — I suppose they would leave their lodgings. 232. At all events, there was no actual proof that they were prostitutes beyond the fact they were disorderly in the streets ? — No, except the knowledge of the police that they were earning their living by prostitution. 233. With regard to clandestine prostitution, of course you have no actual evidence to give of that ? — No, bi*t we get evidence occasionally where people, instead of going to brothels, go to refreshment-houses, or even to public-houses, or beerhouses. Every now and then those cases crop up, and I know by that that there is a great deal of clandestine prostitution going on. 234. Would you consider that the increase of clandestine prostitution is due to the closure of brothels in those places ? — Partly, and partly to B the 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 10 Marcli 1 882.] Mr. AVkeford. ]^Continuea. Dr. Farqvharson — continued. the brothels being watched more, I have no doubt. 235. Therefore you think tlie closure of brothels is no indication of the increase of the morality of the district? — No, I should tliink not. 236. Perhaps it is the other way ? — There are certainly a large numbei' less prostitutes, known prostitutes. 237. How do j'ou know that those women, whom you call clandestine prostitutes, are not on the register, and arc not being examined ? — I have no evidence of it ; I only know it by repute. 238. For anything you know, they may be actual prostitutes on the register, and may be regularly examined? — 1 should be very much surprised to find that they were. 239. I think you gave some evidence just now about the improved conditions of the life of soldiers ane sailors, and you think that the dimi- nution of prostitution in those districts may be due to the increased facilities for amusements, &c., which soldiers and sailors now have ? — I think a good deal. 240. Can you tell us whether those improved conditions ol' life do not exist equally in the pro- tected and in the unprotected districts ? — I can- not tell you. 241. If those improved conditions are in oper- ation, both in the protected and in the unpro- tected districts, of course that argument falls to the ground? — I have no knowledge as to that. 242. Of coui'se your personal observation is entirely restricted to what you know, yourself, of Plymouth and Devonport ? — Of Plymouth. Colonel Dif/I)ij. 243. In your opinion has the number of brothels, as well as of licensed houses, decreased in your district ? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 244. You spoke of the better conditions of life under which the soldiers and snilors live, and we hope, I suppose I may add, that they are an im- proved class of men that we have got. On the other hand, ought you not io set off against that the larger amount of leave, both by day and night, which soldiers and sailors also have now, as giving them greater opportunities for dissipation, if they clioose to avail themselves of them ? — They get leave ; but I do not know whether they get more leave. 245. And they are younger men, are they not, than we had some 15 or 20 years auo ? — Yes ; they are not so old, as a rule. 246. Of course no body suspects that local in- fluences would be brought to bear upon you; but you could not answer for these 90 men who are under your care, could you ? — Certainly not. 247. They are ordinary police constables living about the town, who do not differ from the police constables, we will say, of Birmingham, or of any other town ? — Not at all. 248. Is it not also the fact that your local police are divided amongst five or six districts ? — We are three districts ; three towns. Mr. Osborne Morf/an — continued. 249. But is not each town divided into dis- tricts ? — No; the superintendent of Stouehouse would take the country districts. 250. But each of those three districts has a separate police force attached to it ? — Yes, that is so. 251. Therefore, of course, supposing that a woman had got known to the local police in one of your districts, all she would have to do would be to go to another district, in order to escape observation ; would not that be so? — Yes, I pre- sume it would, unless we were lookitig after her by warrant, and then, of course, we should follow her. 252. It is common ground, I think, to every body that there has been a decided decrease in the number of prostitutes and brothels, and a decided improvement in the order and general api)earance of the streets of Plymouth since the time Avhen these Contagious Diseases Acts came into operation ? — Yes, it is so. 253. I understand you then, to say that, while you admit tliat that improvement has taken place, you attribute it, no doubt, perfectly honestly to causes other than the operation of tiie Con- tagious Diseases Acts ? — Yes. 254. And those causes are, first, I think you said, the greater activity of the local police, and secondly, the passing of the Licensing Act ? — Yes. 255. Would you go so fixr as to say that the Contagious Diseases Acts have had no effect whatever in bringing about that better state of things ? — No, I would not go so far as that. 256. Then, perhaps, you would admit that it would be owing, speaking in a general way, to the combined action of these three things, the Licensing Act, the activity of your own police, and the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts ; would you admit that? — I have no doubt that the Contagious Diseases Acts have pre- vented a good many women from coming on the town. 257. Or to use the expression which several witnesses have used, they have had a deterrent operation ? — Perhaps that has been so. Mr. Cavendish Beiitinck. 258. You said that in your examination before the Commission, did you not? — I do not know; I may have said it. It is 10 years ago, and 1 have not seen my evidence smce. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 259. Should you not also be disposed to think that the fact of these women being sent into hospital, and being brought under the influence of religious and moral teaching, must have a good effect upon some of them, at any rate ; or do you not know enough of what goes on in the hospital to be able to speak upon that point ? — I do not. 260. As to the comparative means of acquiring knowledge which you and the metropolitan police have with regard to these women, I suppose, as a matter of fact, the name and address of every single registered prostitute would be known to the metropolitan j^olice ? — Certainly. 261. And I suppose that every prostitute charged SELECT COMJIITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 11 10 March 1882.] Mr. Weeford. Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, charged before the magistrates Avould be known to the metropolitan police ? — Yes. 262. As regards your own force, I suppose, on the other hand, that the thing which sets them in motion is an act of misconduct on the part of a prostitute ? — Yes. 263. Am I right in saying that they do not go into the question of whether a woman is a prosti- tute unless ' she misconducts herself? — They do not. 264. Therefore I suppose that if a prostitute does not misconduct herself in the public streets, or make a row outside a house, she may be in Plymouth without your knowing it?. — Yes, per- sonally, she might. 265. It was said that girls were taken to brothels at an early age as servants, and trained to prostitution there ; I suppose you would have no knowledge of that ? — I should not, individu- ally. 266. You would not say, would you, that the Plymouth police have the same opportunities of knowing the prostitutes as the metropolitan police would have, whose business it would be specially to know them ? — No, they would not, all of them, personally. . 267. Of course they would not see those pros- titutes, and they would not come into contact with them in the same way as the metroi^olitan police do ? — No, not at all, because the women have to pass through the surgery every fort- night. 268. I understand you to say that the infor- mation which you have given the Committee now is from your personal knowledge ? — It is. 269- I think on a former occasion you stated one or two cases from information which had been given you by Inspector John Hill of the Plymouth police? — Yes, the return that was made was made by him. 270. I am afraid he a little misled you, did he not, in some respects ? — Of course they were not prostitutes according to Mr. Anniss's idea. 271. May I ask you whether you have not been in court yourself when the metropolitan police have been complimented by the Recorder of Plymouth, and also by the magistrates, for the manner in which they have carried out the Con- tagious Diseases Acts ? — I do not remember the magistrates doing so, but the Recorder did pass some compliment to Mr. Anniss. 272. And Mr. Anniss has also been compli- mented for rescuing young girls who have found their way into brothels, has he not ? — I do not remember anything about that. 273. Yon know the town well, and I am glad to see that you know the difference between what is evidence and what is not evidence. You state that there have been no authenticated cases of respectable women against whom the Acts have been oppressively used ? — Oh, no. 274. With regard to clandestine prostitution, it is difficult to say what is a clandestine pros- titute, is it not? — 1 take a clandestine prostitute to be a woman who acts as a prostitute and does- not attend the hospital. 275. You mean a woman that is not registered? —Yes. 276. But would there be likely to be many women in that position ; would not the vigi- 0.71. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, lance of the metropolitan police enable them to pounce down on these clandestine prostitutes and get them registered ? — I am afraid that there are a good many about. 277. One of the great comj)laints made against the metropolitan police is, that they ferret out these cases and bring even respectable women upon the register; that is hardly consistent with the fact, is it, that they allow an increased num- ber of what are called clandestine prostitutes to go on carrying on their trade without interfering with them ? — They watch brothels more parti- cularly. There are other places too. 278. But do they not watch the women too, because the case made against them is that they are rather over zealous in carrying out the Act? — I do not see that they can be veiy over zealous if they carry them out straightforwardly. 279. If that were so would it not follow that these women, who, you say, are prostitutes to all intents and purposes, would be put upon the register ? — In a town of 75,000 what are two men going to watch. One part of the town, the eastern part, is scarcely ever watched at all, where the mercantile marine go. They go there occasionally. Mr. Hanbury- Tracy. 280. In your opinion, if the Act is continued, there ought to be an increase in the number of police to make it of real service? — I think more are necessary for a town like Plymouth. I do not think that two men can watch all Ply- mouth. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 281. There are two charges which are a little inconsistent, as it strikes my mind, brought against the Acts and the joersons who administer them ; on the one hand, it is said that the police are constantly taking up women and going to houses where they have no right to go, so as to bring on the register women who ought not to be brought on the register ? — I think there is no ground for that. 282. And, on the other hand, it appears now that there are a number of women who ought to be on the register, but who are allowed to carry on their trade without being interfered with ? — There is no doubt that there are large numbers of women who get their living by pros- titution who are not on the register. 283. What is your ground for saying that? — Partly from my own observation and partly from what I hear from other people. . Only two or three weeks ago I had occasion to make an in- quiry of a woman who had been to a public- house, and I found she had been to this public- house three or four times with different men; and when I found the name of another woman who had been going on in the same way, and neither one of those was registered. 284. Your own observation may enable you to speak as to some cases, but it must be necessarily vague ; you know one case here and another case there, and as to the rest, I suppose you derive your impression from what you hear ? — Yes, and from what is reported to me. 285. Therefore, when you speak of the increase or decrease of clandestine prostitution, I suppose B 2 it 12 MINUTES OF EVIUKXCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE 10 iVarck 1.882.] Mr. "Wkkford. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne il7o7-^a«— continued, it must be t;ikcn as stated in a very general way ; you could not give us anytliing in the shape of figures? — Xo, 1 could not. 286. It is merely your impression ? — Yes. Dr. Farquharson. 287. Would you call a woman living witli one man a clandestine prostitute ? — No, not it" she kept to that one man. Mr. O.ibu-nie Morr/an. 288. She would not he interCored with by the metropolitan police? — Not at all. 289. Putting aside the question whether the Act ought to be continued or not, would you mean by a clandestine prostitute a woman who ought to be registered, but who is not so ? — Yes. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 290. I understand, from your evidence, that if you find that a brothel is conducted in an orderly manner you do not interfere M'ith it ? — Quite so. 291. Y''ou ouly interfere when it becomes dis- orderly ? — Yes, or when some complaint is jnade of it, of drinking being allowed there, or some- thing of that sort ; then we order people to visit it. 292. And you then proceed to set the prosecu- tion in motion? — Yes. 293. But only under tliose conditions ? — Ex- cepting in the case of beerliouscs or public-houses, then, of course, immediately it came to my know- ledge proceedings would be lakeu. 294. Otherwise a bouse which was notoriously a brothel, if conducted in an orderly manner, without exciting public scandal, would be allowed to take its course ? — It would be. 295. As you are, of course, familiar with the subject, having been resident in Plymouth for a long time, I should like to ask you a few ques- tions about the condition of the public women there ; do you consider that their condition has improved, on the whole, since the Contagious Diseases Acts have been in force ? — Do you mean personally ? 296. Generallj ? — Yes ; we have not so many of the lower and rougher class of women there. 297. And, on the whole, they conduct them- selves. I presume, more respectably ? — Certainly: we do not get so many charges. 298. Do you mean charges of drunkenness, and so on ? — Under the Vagrant Act, or the Police Act, for being disorderly. 299. You are well acquainted with the Albert Hospital, of course? — Not very Avell ; I know the place very well. 300. In the last report I find this statement : *' The administration of the lock wards calls for no particular comment from the committee ; tbere has been no trouble, and the work of refor- mation which is cnrried on there has been as suc- cessful as in former years ; " from your OAvn personal knowledge, would you be able to say that you agree in that statement ? — I do not know anything about it. I only know from what I read in the reports. 301. As to whether there is any reformation among those women you have no practical know- edge ? — No. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued. 302. In answer to my Right honourable friend, just now you spoke about the jiersccutiou of women by the jiolice ; you are aware, I suj)pose, that charges have been brought against the Con- tagious Diseases Acts police, in no measured terms, that they have committed acts of great tyranny towards the women ? — I do not think I ever knew a case at Plymouth. 303. In your evidence before the Commission in 1871, you said that you did not believe that the women themselves were then hostile to the Acts? — No, and I do not think they arc now. 304. In the abstract of your evidence drawn up by Sir John Trelawney (8850), you say that disorderly scenes sometimes took place in the neighbourhood of the examining rooms; are there any such scenes now ? — No. 305. You also give it as your opinion that the disorderly scenes were due to the action of the opponents of the Acts ; do you believe that to be the case ? — I know there used to be gentlemen there, and then the women used to come up there sometimes a little the Avorse for liquor, and that sort of thing, and we had to send a policeman there repeatedly. 'Ihat was in 1871. 30G. But you now tell the Committee, as I understand, that these disorderly scenes do not take place ? — I have bad no complaint there for years. 307. Are you acquainted with a person of the name of John Marshall? — Yes. 308. Do you know whether he is a ]>aid agent of the Society for the repeal of the Acts? — I understood that he was an agent for tlie Kescue Society. 309. This is a placard which was issued by him not long ago at Canterbury : he states, " Mr. John Marshall of Plymouth will give an account of his personal knowledge of the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and illustrations of the cruel, one-sided, unjust, and tyrannical manner in which these laws bear upon jioor and defenceless women ; " are you able to tell the Committee whether these laws have ever borne upon poor defenceless -women In this cruel, one- sided, unjust, and tyrannical manner, within your knowledge, as superintendent of the police of the borough of Plymouth ? — No. 310. Therefore you believe these statements, as far as regards I'lymouth, to be utterly false ? — I do not know what Mr. Marshall knows. 311. But, as far as you know, are they true? — As far as I know, I do not know of anything of the kind. Sir Henry Wolff. 312. If there had been anything of the kind 3-ou would have known It, would you not ? — If it had been public, or had come before the magis- trates, I should have known it. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 313. How could it have been otherwise th.an .public if there had been cruelty and tyranny ? — There may be little things occur which do not come before the public. 314. However, you do not believe that any such act has taken place ? — No, I should not say nothing like that. 315. Y'ou SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 13 10 March 1882.] Mr. Weeford. [ Continued. Dr. Cameron. 315. You stated, in reply to a question put by the Judge Advocate General, that you did not know of any respectable woman having been prosecuted under the Acts ; do you remember that in 1870-71 various cases were heard by the magistrates and dismissed, and that the newspapers reported such cases ? — I do not remember ; I do not think it was in Plymouth. I do not i-emember more than one or two cases where the women have been brought up, and not ordered for medical examination ; I remember one case, some years ago. 316. You mentioned that in the case of houses which were not beerhouses or public-houses you did not interfere ; in most of the brothels, whether Dr. Cameron — continued, they are licensed or not, is not liquor sold; is there not a great deal of " shebeening " ? — No doubt. 317. Have you not power to step in to look after that ? —Only by obtaining warrants from the magistrates. 318. Do you ever try to obtain warrants? — Yes ; many times. 319. Have you succeeded ? — Yes. 320. Does not that give you a power to inter- fere with unlicensed brothels.*' — Yes. 321. Have you availed yourelf of that power? 322. With good effect ?— Yes. Mr. John Lynn, called in ; and Examined. Dr. Cameron. 323. You are the Head Constable of the borough of Devonport, are you not ? — Yes. 324. And you have occupied that position since 1862?— Yes. 325. You have been a police officer in the metropolis and the provinces altogether about 40 years, _^I believe ? — Yes, 41 years. 326. Have you read the evidence given before this Committee last Session by Mr. Inspector Anniss ? — I have. 327. And you have come here, to a large ex- tent, to contradict it ? — Yes. 328. Do you believe that any such reduction has been effected by Inspector Annis, or through the administration of the Contagious Diseases Acts, or the operation of the special police en- gaged in their administration, as he rejjresents ? — I do not. 329. Do you contend that such a reduction has taken place ? — There has been a reduction. 330. 'I'o what agency do you attribute it ? — I attribute the decrease in the number of prosti- tutes and in the number of brothels to the in- creased activity of the police, and to the improve- ment in society generally. 331. You have a return, have you not, of the number of brothels of all kinds in Devonport from 1862 to 1881 ?— Y^es. 332. Will you hand that in?— Yes. {The same was delivered in.") 333. From that return it appears that in 1866 the number of brothels was 60 ; at the present time how many are there ? — Eleven. 334. And those are all private houses, are they not ? — Yes. 335. Is there any licensed house now a brothel? — None, to my knowledge. 336. I suppose that a good dealof your powers in suppressing those houses arise out of the Licensing Acts ? — Yes. 337. When you came to Devonport, how many licensed houses were there of bad character ? — A large number ; I should think 80. 338. When did you come to Devonport ? — In 1862. 339. And a number of them had dancing saloons attached to them? — Yes, about 60 of them, or rather more. 0.75. Dr. Cameron — continued. 340. Shortly after your arrival in Devonport, you prosecuted a number of those, did you not? — Y''es. 341. For what offence ? — For harbouring pros- titutes. 342. What was the result ? — Convictions. 343. And the dancing rooms were closed? — Yes. 344. Y'ou have another return here of the number of convictions under the Licensing Acts obtained against public-house and beerhouse- keepers in Devonport for harbouring jii-ostitutes, from 1863 to 1873 ; will you hand that in?— Yes. ( The same was delivered in.) 345. Were any of the 49 convictions there enumerated obtained through the instrumentality of the Contagious Diseases Acts' j^olice ? — Cer- tainly not. 346. You state that in one ease the officers of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police did not know that the house was a brothel ? — No, neither did I until we got the evidence to convict it. Mr. Hanhury-Tracy . 347. How long after the passing of the Act was it before the police knew that it was a brothel? — This conviction took place in 1878, but it had not been a brothel all the time. Dr. Cameron. 348. Do you find that publicans, the pro- prietors of licensed houses, dread the powers that you jjossess under the ordinary licensing laws ? — There is no doubt of it. 349. You have here another return of thenuraber of public-houses and beershops in Devonport which were closed in consequence of the action of the local police in prosecutions, and also in opposing licenses on the ground of the houses being the resort of prostitutes from 1863 to 1881 ? — Yes, that shows a total number of 29 public-houses and 34 beerhouses. ■ 349.* Will you hand in that return? — Yes. (The same iva.s delivered in.) 350. Did the Contagious Diseases Acts' police, or their powers, contribute to the shutting up of any of those houses? — Not in any degree at all. 351. Inspector Anniss, in answer to Question B 3 3797, li MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEFORE THE 10 Marih 1882.] Mr, Lynn. [ Continued. Dr. Cameron — continued. 3797, made tlic following statement: " In a good many cases we have been the cause of shutting iiublichouses and bccrshoi)su{)directly,where they lave persisted in carrying on the trade, wc having a direct knowledge which the local j)olicc would not have tlie opportunity of getting ;" do you admit that? — No, certainly not. 1 should like to know the name of one liouse that he has shut up, or been the means in any way of closing. 352. In reply to another Question, No. 3937, Inspector Anniss specifies a house in Cumberland- street, wliich he claims to have been the means of shutting up ; do you know anything about that? — There were three huu.scs shut up in Cumberland-street by my action. One house was shut uj) after the Acts came into operation, and I suppose that must be the house that he refers to. 353. Was he instrumental in shutting it up ? — Not in the slightest degree. 354. In fact, it was shut up through the power possessed by the ordinai'y police? — It was closed in consequence of my report on the licensing day in 1870, and I have that report here. 355. You have another return showing the number of public-houses and beerhouses in De- vonport, with the number of each convicted on prosecutions by the local police for all offences against tlic Licensing Acts, and the amount of fines inflicted ; will you haild in tliat return? — Yes. (^ I'he same was delivered in.) 356. That shows a total of 38 public-houses and 62 beerhouse, does it not ? — Yes. 357. AVas the shutting up of those houses in any case attributable to the action of the Conta- gious Diseases Acts police, either as res]3ects in- formation, or evidence, or powers ? — In no way connected with them. Sir Henry Wolff. 358. VYere those houses shut up on account of their harbouring prostitutes ? — No, not all of them. 359. They were shut up for other reasons, and not on account of the functions of those Conta- gious Diseases Acts' police ? — Some of them. Dr. Cameron. 360. Is it an oftence against the Licensing Acts to harbour prostitutes? — Yes; 29 public- houses and 34 beerhouses were shut up on the ground of the houses being the resort of prosti- tutes or brothels. Sir Henry Wolff. 361. Is that the total number that were shut up ? — That is the total number that were shut up for those oflfences. Dr. Cameron. 362. You have other powers under the bye- laws of the borough; will you read bye-law No. 44? — Bye-law 44 is as follows: — "Persons keeping disorderly houses. That if any person shall permit or suffer common prostitutes, re- puted thieves, or idle and disorderly persons to assemble at or continue in any house, shop, room. Dr. Cameron — continued, or cellar in his occupation, whether such house, shop, room, or cellar shall ostensibly bq kept for the sale of refreshments or otherwise ; or if any person shall in any manner keep a disorderly house in which gaming, prostitution, or drunk- enness sliall be allowed or encouraged, every person so respectively offending shall for such offence forfeit and pay a sum not exceeding 5/." 363. Tlien there is another bye-law. No. 45, which deals with harbouring children ; will you read that? — " That if any person shall unlawfully or witliout sufficient cause, harbour or entertain, or offer to harbour or entertain, any child under the age of 20 years, after notice to the contrary from the parents or other guardians of such child; or if any person shall permit any female to abide or remain in his house, shop, room, or cellar, or in any part of his premises for the purjjose of prostitution ; or if any person licensed to deal in spirituous or fermented liquors shall knowingly supply any sort of spirituous or fermented liquor to any boy or girl apparently under the age of 14, to be drunk by such boy or girl u])on the premises, every person so respectively offending shall for such offence forfeit and pay a sum not exceeding 5 /." 364. You have prepared a retui-n of tlie num- ber of convictions under the bye-laws which you have just read, all of which, as I understand, were obtained without any assistance from In- spector Anniss or his officers ? — Yes. 365. Will you hand in that return ? — Yes. ( The same ivas handed in.) Mr. Hanbury- Tracy. 366. During what period were those convic- tions obtained? — For the whole period that 1 have been at Devonport. ]\tr. Burt. 367. What is the total number of convictions ? — Forty, between the years 1863 and 1881, and the amount of fines was 103 /. 10 s. Dr. Cameron. 368. Some of those were public-houses and others private brothels ? — Yes. 369. Did your watch committee restrain or encourage your dealing with those cases ? — In our town the watch conmiittee have everything before them before there is a summons issued, therefore it was on my report by their sanction. 370. Do you consider that such houses are more likely to be dealt with in the way of sup- pression by the Contagious Diseases Acts' police, or by the inhabitants who are interested in main- taining the order of the neighbourhood ? — In all these cases information was obtained by the local police. We could get information any day that a house was a brothel, and we might get a conviction ; but it is a sort of rule that I have laid down for my own guidance, as it were, that I never interfere with a brothel while it is well conducted. In all these cases there has been some other reason for the jjolice going there except the public-houses. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 371. In order to set you and your staff in motion, there must have been some misconduct on SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 15 10 March 1882.] Mr. Lynn. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, on the part of the inmates of the brothel ; is that so ? — Not always. There was another reason for the police going there. It is not always mis- conduct. 372. Not the simple fact of the place being a brothel ?— No. Dr. Cameron, 373. But you have power of dealing with it, from the simple fact of its being a brothel ? — Yes. 374. You derive power under these bye-laws from that fact ? — Yes, the bye-laws do not give us power to enter. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 375. But whether you have the power, or not, you do not exercise it ? — We do not. Dr. Cameron. 376. But if you had evidence regarding a place being a brothel, whether it was disorderly or not, or whether you thought fit to exercise your power or not, you have power, have you not, to deal with it ? — Yes. Dr. Farquharson. 377. But you have no legal power to enter a brothel ? — No, no legal power ; but no brothel keeper ever hinders us. Dr. Cameron. 378. My question is, whether, supposing that you have got the evidence, you have the power of dealing with the house upon that evidence, uide- pendently of the fact of there being disorder or not ? — Yes. 379. Do you ever take proceedings against houses that have not licenses as public-houses or beerhouses for the illegal sale of liquor ? — No, we have had nothing of the kind in Devonport. 380. There are some important structural im- provements proceeding in Devonport, are there not ? — Yes. 381. What is your opinion as to their effect in ameliorating the condition of the town? — We have had about 14 brothels pulled down and re- moved, and in a few days six more will go. 382. What becomes of the inmates of those houses ? — I cannot tell ; some of them have gone to Plymouth. 383. Has that effected a reduction in the total number ? — It has effected a reduction in the total number of both prostitutes and brothels. 384. Mr. Anniss mentioned, in reply to Ques- tions 3246 to 3248, that there had been houses in Devonport set apart for the debauchery of boys and girls ; do you confirm or deny that state- ment? — I know Devonport pretty well, and I have known it for some time, and I never heard of such a thing. 385. At Question 3245 Inspector Anniss is asked : " What state of things did you find there ? {A.) They were houses set apart where boys and girls met and had their debauch just at their will. (Q.) At what age? {A.) Varying from 12 to 18. years of age. You would find, for instance, one house frequented by butcher boys and drovers, another by sailor and drummer boys, &c. (Q.) Did girls live in those houses? {A.) Yes, in some of them, but in others they 0.57. Dr. Cameron — continued, only resorted to them at given times. I have found as many as 15 or 20 in some of those houses. {Q.) Were they all young girls? (A.) They would be young girls ; those houses could not exist ; the very fact of our visits to them would shut them up." That would leave the impression on your mind that there were a great number of those houses existing ? — Yes. 386. Do you imagine that they could have existed without your knowledge ? — No, they could not. 387. How do your sources of information com- pare with those of Mr. Anniss? — I have 50 where he has one. Mr. Haiihurij-Tracy. 388. But your force surely is not only confined to the detection of any misconduct under these Acts? — No. Dr. Cameron. 389. Would it have been your duty as head constable of Devonport, to have detected and prosecuted those houses under bye-law 45, which you have read ? — There is no doubt of it. I do not doubt that at times, for a night or two, there might be assemblages of boys and girls. I have stopped a good deal of it in public-houses; I never knew it take place in brothels. 390. Do you then regard Mr. Anniss's state- ment on that point as being very much exagge- rated? — I do. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 391. Mr. Anniss is not speaking of brothels, but of places generally, where boys and girls re- sort, and he is not speaking of Devonport in par- ticular, but of the three towns ? — Perhaps so. Dr. Cameron. 392. In Devonport you say that certain assem- blages of that sort have came to your knowledge ? — Years ago. 393. Did you take any steps to put them down ,? —Yes. 394. If any steps had been taken by the Con- tagious Diseases Acts' police to put down similar assemblages, would they have come to your know- ledge ? — I should have known it before they would, I think. 395. Had they shut up any such houses or prevented any such assemblages, should you have known of it ? — Certainly. 396. Do you know of any such cases ? — I never heard of it until I saw it in print. 397. Is this a fair statement of your position: that whenever any brothel has been shut up in Devonport you claim that it has been the result of prosecutions by yourself with the aid of your own oflScers, and not of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police in any way ? — I do. We may have had a brothel shut up for a week or two, and it might be opened again after the prosecution. I cannot say that I have been the means of perma- nently closing any brothel at all. 398. Are there any circumstances in the shape of better care being taken of soldiers and sailors which would lead to an imiDrovement ? — It has led to great improvements. A lady named Miss Weston has opened two establishments in Devon- B 4 port. 16 MINUTKS OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THK 10 Marcft 1882.] Mr. Lynn. [ Continued. Dr. Cameron — continued, port, and she can lodge 170 sailor?, and a sailor is never turned away from tliere, whether he is drunk or sober. Very frequently, if a sailor is found drunk, he is taken there instead of being brought to the police station ; he is never refused admission. ;599. "Wlmt have you to say as to the improved condition of soldiers ? — We do not have a soldier in custody once a month, I should think ; we do not have a dozen a yeai- in Devouport. The military patrols are constantly out night and day. 400. Are those a recentinstitution? — Not very; they have been established within the last 12 or 14 years, probably. 401. They were not in existence when you commenced your conneclion with Devonport? — They were beginning then, but they were not so much in practice as they are now. 402. As to the number of prostitutes, Mr. An- niss handed in a return marked B., which appears on page 466 of the Appendix ; have you any remarks to make with regard to that? — He says that in the year 1866 he had 340 ; but I say that there were not so many. 403. He brings it down in 1881 to 82; have you any remark to make about that? — No, I think that may be correct in 1881. Sir Henry Wolff. 404. How many were there in 1866 according to your view ? — In 1866 I return 152 at Devon- port. Di'. Cameron, 405. Can you explain the discrepancy? — No. 406. Have you reason to believe that your number is accurate? — I have. 407. Has Mr. Anniss adhered to your numbers in subsequent years ? — Yes. 408. Do you see any reason why he should have deviated from them in the first year of the return ? — I cannot give any reason. 409. At all events, you adhere to the accuracy of your return ? — I do, to the best of my belief. 410. Do you believe that you have better machinery for acquiring information on that point than Inspector Anniss ? — Yes. Sir Henri/ Wolff. 411. Have you anything to do with Plymouth or Stouehouse ?-— Nothing whatever. 412. How many do you return tliis year? — I had no return in 1881. 413. Then when did you stop your returns ? —In 1868. Dr. Cameron. 414. With regard to the number of prostitutes for the years subsequent to 1868 ; do you believe that Mr. Aimiss's figures represent the full number ? — In 1869, although I did not return them on the Judicial Statistics, they were taken; and in that year we had J 70, and Mr. Anniss shows 166. 415. Have you known any cases in which women of undoubtedly immoral character have been charged and convicted as prostitutes, who had not been registered ? — I can only say what Di-. Cameron — continued. they have said. I never saw the register, and, therelbre, I cannot tell. 416. Cases have come under your notice, where the women who have been convicted as jirostitutes have told you that they were not registered ? — Yes. 417. Have there been many such cases? — Several. 418. In Captain Harris's return, i)age 15, a statement of Mr. Anniss's is embodied to the effect, that no girl under 17 years of age has during the last three years been practising jjrostitution in the districts of Portsmouth, Ply- moutli, Shcerness, and a number of other places ; does that statement coincide with your know- ledge on the subject ? — No. 419. Do you consider it credible, or the con- trary ? — It is not true. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 420. On the question of age ; it must, to a certain extent, be a matter of surmise how old a girl is, must it not ? — When she is charged we ask her her age. 421. But I mean independently of her being charged ? — We could only go by appearance. Dr. Cameron. 422. Have you not as good means of finding out the age as Inspector Anniss, or has he any means of finding out the aije that you have not? — If I wanted to find out, he has no better means than I have. 423. Then do you accept Mr. Anniss's figures in the same return, of there being over 400 girls under the age of 17 practising prostitution, in the year 1865 ? — No, in 1865, in Devonport, we had four under 16. I have not any return of those over 16 and under 17. On the Judicial Statistics it is 16 and undei'. Sir Henry Wolff. 424. Are these returns of all the prostitutes under that age in Devonport ? — Yes. 425. Whether charged or not ? — Those who were living in Devonport. Chairman. 426. Do you mean to say that at that time there were four prostitutes under that age living in Devonport, or that there were four prostitutes convicted? — There were four living there under that age. Dr. Farquharson. A'll. You have not any actual authentic evi- dence of their age ; it is only a matter of sur- mise? — No ; in that case their ages were got for the purpose of the Judicial Statistics. Dr. Cameron. 428. How did you get their age? — I sent a shrewd and intelligent man to collect the evi- dence. 429. And has Captain Harris any other means of getting their ages? — Not that I know of. Dr. Farquharson. 430. But they were asked ; it was not a case of surmise ? — No ; they were asked. 431. On SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 17 10 March 1882.] Mr. Lynn. [ Continued. Dr. Cameron, 431. On the other point of there being no girls under that age practising pi ostitution at present in Devonport, have you had any case recently ? —Yes. 432. Will you give us an account of it ? — On the 9t]i of last month two young women were locked up and convicted of being common prosti- tutes and behaving in an indecent manner ; and one of them was then 16, and she had been on the town two years, she said. 433. Had she ever been at the Lock Hosj)ital ? — She said she had been out of the Lock Hospital five days. 434. How old was the other one ? — She was 20, and she had been more than three years on the town. 435. Have any similar cases come under your notice ? — No, not recently. We have had no very young girls charged. 436. I suppose Mr. Anniss's statement refers only to registered prostitutes ? — I should think so. 437. Do you imagine that the registered prosti- tutes include all the j)rostitutes of Devonport ? — • I do not think so. 438. What is your idea as to clandestine jjros- titution in your district ? — I never heard the ex- pression " clandestine prostitutes ; " I would give them a different name. 439. What name would you give them ? — -I should call them " sly whores." 440. 1 suppose you mean unregistered prosti- tutes ? — I do not quite mean that. Mr. Hanhury-Tracy. 441. You mean women who are sharp enough to avoid being registered ? — -Yes. Dr. Cameron. 442. But practising prostitution clandestinely ? — To a large extent. 443. Are there many of those ? — I believe that there are a large number in Devonport. 444. Do you believe that their number has been increased or diminished through the opera- tion of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I could not say. 445. Is it your opinion that the operation of these Acts lias had anything to do with the diminution or increase of clandestine prostitu- tion ? — I do not know that it has. I cannot tell you that the Acts have had any influence at all ; I am not aware of any as far as regards the clan- destine prostitutes. 446. Mr. Anniss makes a statement, in answer to Question 3446, that the local police send young girls whom they find in bad company to him to be restored to their parents ; is that the case ? — I have on one occasion sent a parent to Mr. Anniss after sending round to the brothels in Devonport and not finding the child. That is eight or nine years ay what means do you arrive at the data which enable you to say that there arc so many prostitutes in Devonport in a particular year? — I send a sergeant, an intelligent fellow, and he takes the name of evcrj' prostitute in every house. Then 1 have some knoivledge of them, and in going over these names I sometimes say : " You have not got so-and-so '* ; or, " What is the reason that this woman is not in "? and he may tell me: "Oh, she has left"; or: "She has gone to Plymouth." They are checked by my- self, and two inspectors, and a detective ser- geant. 518. I think you a little misunderstood In- spector Annis. He did not say that he had actually taken proceedings against any of those liouses that were closed ; what he said was, that he, knowing the inmates, and what they were doing, was enabled to put jiressure upon them, owing to which the houses were closed ; so that indirectly he and the Acts which he administei'cd were the cause of their being shut up. What observation have you to make upon that ? — I am not aware of any having been shut up. 519. Do you mean that no brothels have been shut up at all in Devonport ? — There have been some shut up from other causes, from the keepers dying or removing; but I have never heard of a brothel being shut up in Devonjiort from any outside cause. 520. You agree that there has been a diminu- tion in the number of brothels and prostitutes, and also an improvement in the general morality of the town ? — To some extent. 521. Do you consider that the Contagious Diseases Acts have had nothing whatever to do with that result ? — I cannot say ; I am not aware of anything. 1 do not know of anything that they have done. 522. It is a singular fact that, according to one of those returns which you have put in from the time of the Contagious Diseases Acts coming into operation there was a steady decrease in the number of brothels of all kinds in the borough of Devonport from 1862 to 1881. In 1866, which was the last year before the Act of 1866 came into operation, there were no less than 60 ; then they go down to 53, 50, 46, 47, 44, 41, and at last they come down to 11. It is a singular coinci- dence, to say the least of it, that from the time when the Acts came into operation, the number of brothels should decrease; how do you account Mr. Oshornr Morf/nn — continued, for that ? — I have accounted for it, I think, by the influence which Miss Weston's establishments have had on the sailors. 523. When was her establishment founded ? — In 1876. 524. But this decrease begins from 1KG7 ? — Just so. 525. Here is the fact, and I am not asking you for any explanation of it ; I am simply say- ing that it is a fact from your own figures that from 1866, the year before the Act came into operation, when the number of brothels in Devon- ]iort was 60, there has been a steady jn-ogressive decline until, in the year 1881, there were 11; therefore the decline in the numl.>er of iirothels certainly is contem])oraneous with the jiassing of the Contagious Diseases Act? — Not exactly. If you go back to my return for 1862 you will find that there were 49, and in 1863, 59; so that there is a rise of 10 in one year. They fluctu- ate ; in 1864 there were 48, and in 18()5, 52. 526. Then in 1866 there were 60? — The Con- tagious Diseases Act came into operation on the 1st of October 1866. 527. From that time there is a steady decrease in the number of brothels ? — In 1867 there were just the same number of brothels as there were in 1865. Sir Henry Wolff. 528. But then the numbers gradually de- ci'cased; in 1866 there were 60 ; in 1867,53; in 1868,50; in 1869,46; in 1870,47; in 1871, 44; and in 1872, 41, and that was four years before Miss Weston set up her establishment? — Alany oF those brothels were beerhouses and public-houses. I am not aware of any pi-ivate brothel that was shut up. Mr. Oshnrne Morgan. 529. But do you not in any way connect that decrease, which you admit took place after the passing of the Contagious Diseases Acts with the operation of those Acts? — I do not in my own mind. I would if I could. 530. But still, of course, you admit the fact that it did follow upon the passing of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts 'I — Yes. 531. You have to place all reports before the watch committee before you can obtain a sum- mons, have you not ? — Yes. 532. Have you indicted any brothel keeper in Devonport since the year, 1865 ? — No. 533. Do you know that there were brothels existing in the main streets of Devonport, such as Fore-street, St. Aubyn-street, Chapel-street, George-street, and so forth, and that they have all disappeared ? — There never was a brothel in any of those streets to my knowledge unless it was a public-house or a beerhouse. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 534. You think that the establishment of what are called Sailors' Homes and recreation rooms prevent prostitution? — To a certain extent. 535. That is only an opinion ; I suppose you have no ground for it ? — I have some reason, because in former times seamen who were drunk went SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 21 10 March 1882.] Mr. Lynn. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentlnck — continued, ■went to those brothels, and now they are not found there. 536. But that would not interfere with their desire to consort with prostitutes ? — They do not do it in Devonport. 537. Do you mean that those people who go to play at cards in these recreation rooms do not, as a rule, go after prostitutes ? — 1 cannot say that at all ; I only know that it has the effect of keeping soldiers and sailors from the streets. 538. But you have no reason for believing that it keeps them from the prostitutes ? — No ; but one's common sense would lead one to believe that they are not so much in the way of temptation. Formerly soldiers and sailors used to be rolling about the streets half drunk, and we do not see that now. 539. I should have thought that common sense would have pointed out that if you have a number of young unmarried men, the fact of their having recreation rooms and being allowed to play cards would not the least in the world keep them away from prostitutes ?— -Perhaps it does not keep them away from prostitutes. 540. In your judgment, has the condition of the common women improved of late years in De- vonport ? — In cleanliness. 541. And in health ? — Yes. 542. And that has been the effect of the Acts, has it not ? — To a great extent, I think. 543. Therefore the Acts have had a very be- neficial effect in that respect? — As far as that goes, I think the Acts, for what they were in- tended to do, have done a great deal of good. 544. Where you in the room when I addressed a question to the last witness about Mr. John Marshall ? — I have been in the room all the time, and I heard your question. 545. He complams of the cruel, one sided, un- just, and tyrannical manner in which the laws were administered ; have you, in your experi- ence, seen instances of any such acts ? — No ; I have not. 546. You are able to state that positively ? — Y'^es. 547. Mr. Marshall also states, at the end of this placard, which purports to be issued under the auspices of the National Association for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts (and therefore one would imagine that the promoters of this association are responsible for it), " I have watched the operation of these Acts for more than 10 years, and I have rescued some hundreds of women from the tyranny and degra- dation of this fearful legislation." Are any of these hundreds of women to your knowledge people within the boundaries of your borough ? — They are not. I do not think that the society selected a good man when they selected Mr. Marshall. I would not select him for that or for any other duty that required discretion. Dr. Cameron, 548. So far as the sanitary aspect of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts are concerned, you are favourable to them ? — Yes. 549. And you think that the contagious dis- eases' police have acted with great discretion and been good men ? — I have always found them so. 550. Therefore you are anything but a preju- 0.75. Dr. Cameron — continued, diced witness against the constables who heve the working of the Acts 1 — I am not against them at all. 551. As I understand it, so far as their alleged effects in diminishing the number of brothels, in diminishing the number of prostitutes, in pro- tecting young girls, in rescuing young prostitutes, and in bringing about an orderly state of the streets are concerned, you maintain that the Con- tagious Diseases Acts have nothing to do with the imjirovements that have taken place?— I cannot say as to the rescue of young prostitutes ; I do not know what they have done in that re- spect, but as to the others I say that to my mind they have had no effect. 552. I enter into this, because the point was taken up, and I think it led to a little confusion in the minds of the Committee. So far as the number of brothels is concerned there has been a marked diminution from 1862 to 1881. You informed us, as I understood you, that that had taken place in two directions : first, as regards licensed houses, iDublic-houses and beerhouses ; and, secondly, as regards private brothels. So far as the public-houses and beerhouses are con- cerned, do you attribute the diminution, or rather the suppression, of brothels in those houses to the action of the local police, or of the police under the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — To the action of local police entirely. 553. As to the diminution in the number of private brothels, do you attribute that chiefly to the demolitions and structural improvements which have taken place in the town ? — And to certain other causes. 554. Do you inform the Committee that it is due to any extent to the direct action of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police ? — I do not believe it is. 555. Can you see how it could be ? — No. 556. Have they taken any proceedings against them ? — Not in any one case. 557. Then as to the number of prostitutes, is it not a fact, as shown by one of your returns, that, although the number has been diminished, the number of convictions has been much greater during the last five years than it was before ? — Y'es. 558. Has the activity of the police been greater ? — I do not know that there is any differ- ence in the activity of the police. 559. Whilst admitting the diminution in the number of prostitutes, you have stated that a much larger number of convictions has taken place for offences other than offences against the Contagious Diseases Acts ; do you attribute that greater number of convictions in recent years to the greater activity of the police in prosecuting people for such offences, or to the greater readi- ness manifested by the magistrates in convicting them ? — We do not see each other's point, I think. The magistrates would convict those whom I brought before them only. The police have not been any more active than they were be- fore. The police, I believe, were as active tea years ago as they were five years ago, and as active five years ago as they are now. 560. In that case does it not follow by exclu- sion, that the only reason for the greater number C 3 22 MINITK-S or KVIDKNCE TAKEN BKFOUE TIIK 10 March 1882.] Mr. Lynn. [ Continued. Dr. Cameron — continued, of convictions must be the greater disordcrliness ? — Certainly. 561. According to that tlicn, the habits of tlie fewer number of prostitutes that there are at present in Devonpoit must bo -worse than they were formerly ? — Their conduct has not im- proved in respect of getting drunk and making use of bad language. Their conduct has im- proved in some things ; they do not stand about the streets as they used to, but in getting drunk and making use of bad language they are as bad as ever, and they must do that to get into our hands. Mr. IVilliam Fuwler. .562. You wish distinctly to state, as I under- stand, with regard to the decrease in the number of houses mentioned in the return, which was shown as a matter of time to have coincided with the existence of the Acts that, in your opinion, the diminution has merely followed the Acts, but has not been caused by the Acts? — I do. 563. There was something said with regard to the changes in the habits of soldiers, and their going to the Homes ; if I understood your mean- ing it was this : that a soldier formerly having no place to go to but a public-house, used to go there and get drunk, and then he would go and consort with a prostitute, whereas he now goes to a Home, where he has innocent amusements ■without getting drunk, and he is not so likely to Mr. William Fotsler — continued, consort with a prostitute as he would be if he were half drunk? — That was my meaning. 564. And, therefore, the existence of Homes has had a jwwerful influence in diminishing prostitution ? — I think so. 565. It comes to this : that there has been a diminution of drunkenness, and that that has caused a diminution of prostitution ? — Yes. 566. The Right honourable Member wanted to point out to you that the niei'c fact that the man was not drunk did not prove that he would not go with a prostitute ; but 1 understand you to argue that if he went to a Home and not to a public-house, he would be much less likely to come across a prostitute, and to get into tempta- tion ? — In the public-house he would be very likely to find a prostitute. 567. And he would get excited by drink also' — Yes. 568. I think you said that the Acts had done good for what they were intended. I suppose that so far as you know the Acts were intended for hygienic purposes, and your opinion is that they have done good in that respect ? — Yes. 569. But you do not want to give any further opinion about them ? — No, 1 cannot. 570. With regai-d to what you said about the improvement of the condition of women ; do you think that that can in any way have arisen from their being better paid, and from their conducting their business in a more paying way, as it were, than they used to? — No, I do nut think so. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 23 Friday, l7th March 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT ; Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Burt. Dr. Cameron. Dr. FarquharsoD. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Shaughnessy. Mr. Stansfeld. Sir Henry WolfF. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Captain Edward Brutton, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Stansfeld. 571. You were, I think, a Captain in the 57th? — I was. 572. And you are now Superintendent of the Devon County Police ? — I am. 573. How long have you held that appoint- ment? — Ten years. 574. Where are your headquarters? — At Stone- house. 575. And your jurisdiction comprises the town of East Stoneliouse, and what besides? — It com- prises the town of East Stonehouse, and the whole of the district outside Stonehouse, under the Contagious Diseases Acts, except Dart- mouth. 576. And except, of course, the towns of Ply- mouth and Devonport? — Quite so. 577. You include the town of Stonehouse and all the rural places in the Devonport Contagious Diseases Acts district? — Exactly. 578. Have you read the evidence given before this Committee last year by Inspector Anniss ? — I have. 579. Inspector Anniss, in speaking of the re- duction of brothels in his district, between 1865 and 1880, attributes such reduction, does he not, to the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts, as carried out by himself and his subordinates ? — He does. 580. Speaking for your own district of Stone- house, do you agree with that statement of In- spector Annis ? — Certainly not. 581. Do you think that that statement of his is In any respect or degree accurate ? — Quite the reverse. 582. Do you know of any single information against a brothel which has ever been laid by Inspector Anniss before the Stonehouse justices which has caused the closing of any such house ? — No, I do not. 583. With regard to the closing of brothels, whether public-houses, beershops, or private brothels, since the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts, have all proceedings been exclu- sively instituted and carried out by the local police ? — They have. 584. Your appointment, I think, dates from the end of 1872 ?— Yes. 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 585. From what sources is your knowledge of the time previous to your appointment derived ? — From the serjeant of the Stonehouse district, who was there at the time, and who is still in the force ; and from the official records. 586. He was the serjeant who kept those records ? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 587. May I ask his name ?— M'Nallen. Mr. Stansfeld. 588. Can you put in a return showing the number of brothels of all kinds in Stonehouse, and the number closed between 1865 and 1882? — I can. ( The same was delivered in. ^' 589. Does that return apply to the town of Stonehouse ? — It applies to the town of Stone- house alone. 590. It includes beerhouses, coffee-houses, and public-houses, does it not ? — Quite so. 591. Will you give us the numbers, with what explanatory remarks you may think necessary to elucidate the return? — In 1865 there were 31 brothels, 24 of which were beerhouses, three coffee-houses, and four private houses. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 592. When you speak of beerhouses, do you refer to beerhouses used as brothels ? — 1 do. I might say that before 1869 the beerhouses were not licensed by the magistrates ; some of them were licensed by the Revenue and some of them were private houses. In 1869, when the Beer- house Act came in, 24 of those licenses were opposed. On those brothel keepers, who held licenses, coming up for their licenses, those licenses were opposed on the ground that they kept brothels. An adjournment was asked for by them to enable them to refute the evidence produced by the police. An adjournment was granted for a fortnight, and, on the expiration of the adjournment, some of those people came up for their licenses. The consequence was that the whole of those licenses were taken away ; and, on their licenses being refused, 10 of those beerhouses, which were previously used as C 4 brothels. 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 17 March 1882.] Captain BitUTTON. \_CoHtinued. !Mr. Osborne Mori/an — continued, brothels, were closed at the same time. That •would be from 1869 to 1870. Mr. StansfeUl. 593. In the year 1868, according to your re- turn, I find that the number of brothels was 31, of which 24 were beerhouses, two coft'ee-bouses, and five jirivatc bouses? — Quite so. 594. 1 now imJerstand trom you that, In the year 1869, the licenses of none of those 24 beer- houses were renewed ; that 10 of those houses ■were altogether closed, and that 14 remained opened as ]irivate brothels, but ceased to be beer- houses ? — That is so. 595. By whom were the proceedings taken •which ended in those 24 licenses not being re- newed ? — By the police. 596. By what police ? — By the Stonebouse police. 597. By your own county police ? — Yes. 598. Had the Contagious Diseases Acts' police anything to do with those jjroceedings ? — No- thing. 699. The result, as I understand upon the number of brothels is, that whereas in 1869 there •were 31 brothels of all kinds, in 1870 there were 21 ? — There were. 600. And that reduction of 10 was brought about in this way ; that 24 beerhouse licenses were not renewed, and 10 of those houses were absolutely shut up ?— Yes. Possibly it maj^ be as well that the Committee should understand, that previously to 1869, the beerhouses only got theu^ licenses from the Inland Revenue ; after 1869 they had to apply to the magistrates, and it ■was then that their licenses were refused. Mr. William Fowler. 601. Under Ibbetson's Act ?— Quite so. Mr. Stanxfeld. 602. That is the reason why that reduction of 24 licenses occurred in the year 1869, and not before ? — Exactly. 603. As I understand from you, you had no power before then to refuse the licenses ? — No power whatever. 604. After the year 1869 will you continue with any explanation of this return which you consider necessary ? — In 1871 there was an in- crease of one brothel. A private house was opened, and one was closed. 605. A\'ith regard to the one that was closed, I see that opposite to that is " White Horse " ; that sounds like the name of a public-house ? — They still kept, and were known by the same names as they had before their licenses were taken away. 606. And that would apply, would it, to the year 1872, when I see the " Sportsman's Ai-ms" was closed? — Yes. 607. And the year 1874, when the " New- castle " and the " Crown and Anchor " were closed? — Yes. 608. All those in the meantime since 1869 have become private brothels ? — Yes. 609. In 1876 two were opened, the "White Lion " and the " Freemasons' Arms " ; those were licensed houses, were they not ? — Those were licensed houses. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 610. What haj)pened to the " Freemasons' Arms " ? — That was closed. I should say that in 1876 or in 1877 those two licensed houses, the " Freemasons' Arms " and the " White Lion " had their licenses ; but we could not state, as fact, that they were brothels before then ; but the police knew about that time that they were used as brothels. 611. Then the phrase "two opened "means that they were then discovered by the police to be used as brothels? — Exactly. 612. Then the license of the "Freemasons' Arms " was taken away ? — Yes, In 1877, by the information laid by myself, that in one case the publican had kept an unfortunate men drunk there for a week, and also that he had harboured prostitutes. 613. What happened in the year 1878? — In 1878 there were two closed, the " Globe " and the " White Lion." 614. The "White Lion " was discovered to be conducted partially as a jjrothel iu the year 1876, but what about the " Globe '"? — The " Globe " was a private house, and It was closed. The "Sportsman's Arms'' was closed, because the landlord was convicted of selling liqour without a license. The " Freemasons' xVrnis " and the "AVhite Lion" were licensed houses ; the renewal of whose licenses was opposed by me in the case of the " Freemasons' Arms," as I have already stated, for harbouring a drunken man and also for harbouring prostitutes. The admiral wrote to me with reference to the landlady of the " Globe," Avho had a pension ; and I made in- quiries, and she was given to understand that if she continued that trade her pension would be stopped ; and she closed her house. 615. AVhat happened in the year 1881 ? — There were three houses closed. The vicar of the parish Interested himself with reference to the landlady who kept the " Hose of England," and she gave up. She Influenced her brother-in- law, ■who kept the other two, and he gave up. 616. There was no prosecution in those three cases ? — There was not ; but I should observe that I have no power to proceed against brothels ; the only way that I can do it is, if two house- holders will indict them. 617. That Is under the Act of George II.? — Yes. In 1882 there was a coffee-house closed by me. That was a licensed house, and I proved that it was the resort of prostitutes. The land- lady was tried for that, and the next day she closed and went away. 618. The result Is this, is it not; that, whereas in the year 1865 and down to the year 1869, the number of brothels in Stonebouse was 31, they were immediately reduced by 10 under the Beer- house Act of 1869 ? — Quite so. 619. And in 1882 the number has come down to 14 ?— That is so. 620. Of those 14, are there 1 1 private houses and three coft'ee-bouses?— There are. 621. I understand your evidence to be that none of these reductions were occasioned in any way or degree by the action of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police ? — Certainly not. They have no power; They can only Avork under the Contagious Diseases Acts. 622^ I see, according to your return, that you appear SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 25 17 March 1882.] Captaia Brutton. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. appear during the whole of this period to have had a certain number of coffee-house brothels in Stonehouse ? — There have ahvays been three or four. 623. Stonehouse is a part of Inspector Anniss's Devonport district. Have you before you Captain Harris's return for March 1881 ? — I have. 624. Do you not find that, according to Cap- tain Harris's return for Devonport, which I pre- sume is within your knowledge, founded upon Inspector Annis's returns, the column of brothels which are not public- houses, or beershops, or private houses, contains no figures ? — There are no figures there. 625. According to Captain Harris's return, during the whole of that period there were no coffee-houses which were conducted as brothels in the whole of the Devonport district ; your evidence to-day, I understand, is that, in the town of Stonehouse alone, during the whole of that period, there have always been two or three, or more, coffee-houses so conducted? — There have. At the present moment there ai'e three. 626. Has the town of Stonehouse any bye- laws affecting the brothels and disorderly houses as Plymouth and Devonport have ? — No, it has not ; it is under a local board. 627. Stonehouse is not a corporate town ? — No, it is not. 628. It follows from that, does it not, that the proceedings which you take against brothels, as they cannot be taken under bye-laws, so far as the brothels which are beerhouses or public- houses are concerned, must be taken, and are taken, under the Beerhouse or Licensing Acts ? — So far as licensed houses are concerned ; and the only way in which I can touch brothels is when I can detect them selling liquor without a license. That of course would be under the Licensing Act. 629. But am I correct in assuming that all the proceedings under the Beerhouse or Licensing Acta in Stonehouse have been taken by you, and not by the Contagious Diseases Acts' officers? — That is so. 630. And without any aid from the Contagious Diseases Acts' police ? — "With no aid at all. 631. Have you Inspector Anniss's evidence of last year before you ? — I have. 632. Turning to Questions 3530 to 3536, do you find that Inspector Anniss, in the answers to those questions, speaks of a brothel as having been closed by him under the Contagious Diseases Acts.' — I see he does. 633. What case was that ? — That was in the case of the "White Lion" public-house, kept by- Charles Turner. 634. Will you turn to Question 3535 ; what does Inspector Anniss say there ? — He is asked, " How many of those brothels are beerhouses ? " and his answer is : " We have none. The local police did their very utmost to convict this man. They tried to shut him up for years, but failed, and it was left for me to do, and after a lono- time done." 635. Is that statement, in your opinion, cor- rect ? — It is not. 636. Will you give us the facts with regard to that public-house called the " White Lion," kept 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, by Charles Turner ? — In 1876, Inspector Anniss- laid an information against that house for re- sisting the metropolitan police. The landlord ■was fined 1/. and costs. This conviction was appealed against, on the ground that liispector Anniss had no right in the house, and the con- viction was quashed in the Queen's Bench Division. 637. That is the action of Inspector Anniss with regard to the '• White Lion ? " — Yes ; then he laid an information against the same house in 1878, under the Contagious Diseases Acts, for harbouring a diseased prostitute. The man was convicted under the Contagious Diseases Acts, and fined 15 I. and costs. He also laid another information, which was withdrawn, against the same house apparently on the same date. 638. Will you turn to Answer 3536; what does Inspector Anniss state there with regard to the consequences of that prosecution ? — He is asked : " How did you get your information in that case ?" and his answer is, " I had informa- tion from many sources, but got direct informa- tion from a man at the hospital with syphilis. He said that a cex'tain woman had been the cause of it, and that he had slept in this house, and he gave the names of other men that slept there also. Some of our friends who were opposing us at that time thought to beat us, aud sent this woman away. However, I found out where she was, and brought her back, sent her to the hospital, and convicted this man. We had cautioned him for years, but he would persist in carrying on his trade in defiance." 639. Will you tell us vrhat proceedings you took against this house ? — I laid an information in 1876 against the man for allowing his house to be a brothel. Upon that information the charge was dismissed. In 1877 I laid an information against this man for attempting to bribe a con- stable ; in that I failed. In 1878 I summoned him upon three different charges ; the first charge was for failing to admit the police ; the second charge was for allowing his house to be a brothel, and again in another instance for allowing his house to be a brothel. He was convicted on one of these ; and as that conviction made him lose his license under the Licensing Act, on hi& paying the costs I withdrew the other two in- formations. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 640. Was the conviction obtained by Mr. Anniss before this ? — It was. 641. Would not that of itself have involved the loss of the license ? — No, not under the Con- tagious Diseases Acts. The Act says that if you convict a man of keeping a house as a brothel,, that of itself causes him to lose his license. Mr. Stansfeld. 642. What happened to the house?— The magistrates granted the license on the applica- tion of the owner of the house to a fresh tenant ; but it has never been used as a brothel since. 643. It has been in fresh hands ? — It has. 644. Now let me compare for a moment your action and Inspector Anniss's action in the year 1878. I undei'stand from you that Inspector Anniss laid an information in August 1878, and obtained a conviction under the Contagious- D Diseases 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 17 .Uarc/i 1S82.] Captain Bkutton. \_Continited. Mr. Stamfeld — continued. Diseases .Acts against this man, Charles Turner, for harbouring a diseased prostitute ? — Yes. C45. I thini< you said, in answer to tlie Judge Advocate General, that the penalty for harbour- ing a diseased ])rostitute was not the forfeiture of ihe license which could only take place under the Licensing; Act, but was the infliction of a tine? —That is so. ti-l6. In the same year I understand that you laid an information against the man not for har- bouring a diseased prostitute, but for harbouring prostitutes at all ? — Quite so. 647. And the result of your proceeding was that the house passed into other hands and ceased to be a brothel ? — Yes. •548. I thinlv I may assume that you are not unfamiliar with the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I Know them ; I have read them. 649. You have just referred to that section of one uf those .Acts under wliich an information may be laid against a brothel keeper for harbour- ing a diseased prostitute : is there any other sec- tion in those Acts under which the Contagious Diseases Acts police can jirosecute a brothel keeper? — None that I know of. 650. .And the only consequence of such prose- cution is the infliction of a penalty ? — Quite so. 651. The house remains open? — Yes. 652. And as far as the powers in the Con- tagious Diseases Acts are concerned, the house will remain open, and the brothel keeper will remain unsubjected to a penalty if he takes care not to harbour ])rostitutes who are diseased ? — Yes. f)o3. On the other hand, as I understand, your action under the Licensing Act is of a verj' dif- ferent nature : you lay an information against the keeper of a public-house for conducting his house as a brothel, and if you obtain a conviction there is a forfeiture of the license ? — That is so. 654. Can you give us a return of the number of convictions of persons under the Licensing Acts for harbouring prostitutes and allowing pro- stitutes, and allowing prostitution from 1865 to 1881 ? — I can. (7'Ae same was delivered in). 655. .Are there any particulars in that return year by year, upon which you would like to com- ment to the Committee? — From 1865 to 1881 there were 60 convictions under the Licensing Act for harbouring prostitutes and allowing pro- stitution. This return includes nine prosecu- tions against brothel; keepers for selling liquor v.-ithout a license. Mr. Osbornu Morgan. 656. Also, of course, under the Licensing Act? — Quite S". The amount of the fines was 496/. Mr. Stansfeld. 657. I observe that in the year 1865 in the coliunn for remarks you give the number of licensed houses at 127 ; those are public-houses ? — Yes. 658. In the year 1870 you have put it at 97, and in the year 1881 at 94, that is to say, the number of those houses has considerably de- creased? — Yes. 659. Has that reduction, to any extent, been brought about by the proceedings which are re- corded here? — Unquestionably. Mr. Slansfeld — continued. 660. And those proceedings which tended to reduce the number of licensed houses were insti- tuted and conducted, I jiresumc, by you and your start' ? — By myself, and my staft'. 661. "Without any assistiiuce from the Conta- gious Diseases Acts' police ? — The Contagious Diseases Acts' police had nothing to do with it. 662. Can you put in a return of the luimber of persons convicted of all offences against the Licensing Acts in Stonehouse from 1865 to 1881 ? — Yes. (The same was delivered in.) This return shows the number of persons convicted, and the amount of tines for all ofl'ences under the Licensing Act from 1865 to 1881. The total number of convictions was 185, and the amount of fines was 544 /. lis. 663. In any of those cases did you receive any assistance from the Contagious Diseases Acts police ? — None. 664. Am I right in assuming that the general effect of all those prosecutions recorded in the returns which you have laid before us has been to close ill-conducted houses which directly or in- directly- afforded facilities for prostilutinn ? — There is no question about it. 665. And you would expect as a natural con- sequence a diminution of prostitutes and of prosti- tution ? — Yes. 666. In reference to the number of prostitutes in Stonehouse, Inspector Anniss laid a return before us. Return B, Appendi.\ No. 12, of last year's proceedings ; have you seen that return ? — I have. 667. Does that return appear to you to be approximately correct ? — So far as I know, it is. 668. Would you make any exception ? — Speaking generally, I should say that there were many women in the district who act as prostitutes who are not on the register. 669. Then when you say that you regard that return as approximately correct it would be exclusive of what we have been accustomed to call clandestine prostitutes ? — Quite so. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 670. Do you apply the same definition to a clandestine prostitute as another witness gave, that is to say, a woman who, if the Contagious Diseases Acts were strictly carried out, woidd be on the register, but \vho, as a matter of fact, was not there ? — My definition of the difi^erence be- tween a clandestine prostitute and a prostitute by profession is that the one actually makes her liv- ing by prostitution, and the other works in the day time, and goes about with men in the evening. ;Mr. Slansfeld. 671. I take it that the clandestine prostitutes to whom you refer as not being taken account of in respect of Inspector Anniss's figures are not women who live solely with one man ? — No. Mr. Osborne Morgan, 672. Women who do not actually get their living by prostitution ? — Quite so. Dr. Farquharson. 673. Who do not get all their living by pros- titution ? — Just so. Ostensibly they are em- ployed in shops and rag-stores, and as orange girls. SELECT COMMITTEE UN CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 27 17 March 1882.] Captain Beutton. [ Continued. Mr. Farquharsun — continued, girls, and that kind of thing ; ostensibly they have a calling. Mr. Stamfeld. 674. We have heard of the improved con- dition of the streets in recent years in Plymouth and Stonehouse, and elsewhere ; would you attribute that improved condition of the streets, so far as prostitutes are concerned, to the action of the Contagious Diseases Acts police ? — I cannot, because by the returns I showed that the number of prostitutes convicted of different oifences, except under the Contagious Diseases Acts, have not diminished since 1865, but rather increased up to a certain point. 675. Then the improvement in the streets you would attribute in the main to other causes ? — Certainly. 676. Would you attribute it partially to the earlier closing of public-houses? — To a great extent. 677. Of course you would attribute it par- tially to the reduction of the number of public- houses and beershops used as brothels? — No doubt of it. 678. And to the prosecutions undertaken by yourself and your staff? — Yes. 679. And to the decisions of the magistrates upon those prosecutions in respect of chai'ges against immoral women for solicitation and dis- orderly conduct? — Yes, pai'ticulai-ly convictions of houses harbouring prostitutes. 680. It is to those causes, and not to the opei-ation of ihe Contagious Diseases Acts, that you would attribute the improvement of public order in the streets of Stonehouse ? — Mainly. I do not by any means msh to say that the Acts do not do some good. 681. With reference to public order?— Yes. 682. What good do you think they do? — 'i'here is no doubt that they have a deterrent effect. 683. That is to say, that they induce certain women to pi'actise their profession outside that district instead of in it ; is that what you mean ? — I know nothing to go upon to enable me to say that, and therefore I would rather not say so. If I was asked why ? I have only my own opinion. 684. I only want to understand your view and not to put any gloss upon it. I understand that your view it that, to a certain extent, the women • are in fear of the Contagious Diseases Act police, though the prosecutions are undertaken by you and not by the Contagious Diseases Act police, and that probably makes them a little more care- ful in their outward demeanour ? — Certainly. 685. Can you give us a return showing the number of charges against prostitutes before the county magistrates, brought by your police ? — Yes, return No. 4 shows the number of charges against prostitutes before the county magistrates at Stonehouse by the county police, under the following heads, from the year 1865 to 1881 Disorderly conduct (that is drunkenness), 956 Towns Police Acts (solicitation, &c.), 254 Vagrant Act (having no visible means of subsist- ence), 31 ; larceny, 79 ; and other offences (assaults and that kind of thing), 43. ( The same vnis delivered ni.^ 0.75, Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 686. Those are all proceedings I understand against prostitutes? — Those are all proceed- ings against prostitutes for all offences, except under the Contagious Diseases Acts. 687. What are the only proceedings that are possible against prostitutes under the Contagious Diseases Acts? — Simply informations for refusals to submit to the compulsory examinations. 688. Theref )re, practically speaking, this is a record of all the charges against prostitutes ?— Yes. 689. And those have aU been undertaken by yourself and your staff, and without the assistance of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police ? — Yes, wholly. 690. Have the cases of disorderly conduct and solicitation decreased or increased on the average of late years ? —According to this return they have increased up to 1880, more or less. 691. I see that in 1881 there is a very consider- able dimunition ? — Yes, that I can explain ; they are about the same, I think. 692. On the whole you told us that public order had been better observed in the streets ; therefore I assume that I must consider that the comparative increase of those cases must be taken as evidence of the activity of your police, rather than as evidence of increased disorder cir solicita- tion?— No doubt of that. There are many causes. 693. Have you any special explanation that you desire to offer with respect to the great decrease in the number of cases in 1881? — In the years 1880 and 1881 there were nine public- houses that had " free-and-easies," as they are called, that is to say, singing- rooms set apart for men and women. When those houses used to be turned out at closing time the greatest dis- order used to take place in the streets. At the annual licensing meeting I opposed the renewal of the whole of those licenses on the ground of those singing-rooms. I might say that previously to doing this I had cautioned those men, and I had summoned two of them for harbouring pros- titutes ; but I failed to get convictions, because I could not prove that the women were prosti- tutes ; but when the annual licensing meeting took place 1 opposed the renewal of the whole of the licenses on account of the interference with public order. I he magistrates refused to grant those licenses, and in five cases they appealed to the quarter sessions, and the licenses were re- newed only on the distinct understanding that those singing-rooms should be closed, a:nd ever since that the streets have been very different. Mr. Osbdrue Morgan. 694. The singing-rooms were closed, I sup- pose? — Those singing -rooms were closed, and they are closed now, and the consequence has been, that whereas in 1880 there were 110 cases, in 1881 there were only 66 cases. Mr. Stuiisfeld. 695. Can you give us a return of the number of persons proceeded against by Inspector Anniss under the Contagious Diseases Acts during your period of office ? — Yes. This is a return showing the number of persons proceeded against by D 2 Inspector 28 MINUTES or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE Til E 17 March 1882.] Captain Brcttox. [ Continutd. Mr. StansfelJ — continued. Inspeetor Anniss, under the Contagious Diseases Acts, from 1872 to 1882. {The same was dt- Uverd in). 696. How many cases are there in all ? — Nine. 697. Will you give the Committee tke par- ticulars of those cases ; one case is the case of Charles Turner, is it not? — It is. The first was a charge brought against a brothel keeper for harbouring a diseased prostitute, aud she was fined 10/. aud costs in the year 1872. The second -case was agaiust a publican ; there were appa- rently two informations, one against the publican, and one against his wife. 698. AVere those successful ? — Those were dismissed. Then No. 4 is an information against a brothel keeper for the same offence, and she got two months' hard labour; that was in the year 1874. Another brothel keeper for the same oil'ence got four months' hard labour in the year 1875. In the year 1876 there was a con- viction for resisting the metropolitan police, "which was quashed on application to tbe Queen's Bench (that is Charles Turner's case) ; and, in the year 1878, there was another case against Charles Turner for harbouring diseased pros- titutes, for which he was fined 15/. and costs. No. 8, which was against the same man, was withdrawn. No. 9 was a case of a brothel keeper who got two months' hard labour ior harbouring a diseased pi'ostitute. 699. Those are all the informations laid by Inspector Anniss during the 10 years? — Those jire all. 700. And with the exception of the case of Charles Turner, where the conviction originally obtained was quashed on appeal to the Queen's Bench, all those informations were against brothel keepers for harbouring diseased pros- titutes ? — Yes, 701. And the consequences of the conviction were not the shutting up of the brothel, but tbe fining of the brothel keeper? — Quite so. Mr. Osliornv ^Jorgan. 702. Do those convicted persons all carry on brothels now in the district ? — I know that some do. 703. I should have thought that the eiFect of so very severe a sentence would have been to put a stop to the trade indirectly, if not directly ? — No, it takes more than that to shut them up. Mr. Hopu-ood. 704. The seutence of imprisonment would be for non-payment of the fine, would it not, in those two cases ? — If I recollect aright the Act gives the power of imprisonment without the option of a fine. Geach's house is still open, and Warne's house is still open. In Geach's case one of my men knew that Ins])ector Anniss's men were in search of this prostitute : he saw her go into a brothel with a man, and he gave him the information, and went in with him and showed him where she was. 705. Your officer did that ? — Yes, that was in 1879. Mr. Stansfdd. 706. Taking a review of your proceedings, and of Inspector Anniss's proceedings, as re- corded in these returns, am I correct in saying that, wherever a jjublic-house or a beerhouse conducted as a brotnel has been shut up, and the license refused, wlierever jjcrsons have been fined for harbouring prostitutes and allowing prostitutitm, wherever persons have been con- victed for any offences under the Licensing Acts, and wherever ])rostitutes have been charged and convicteil iif disorderly conduct or solicitation, or under the Vagrant Acts, or for larceny, or for any offences except the offence of not ])roceeding to examination, all those proceedings have been conducted by you and your staff without the aid of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police ? — They have. 707. And, in your opinion, those arc the pro- ceedings which have tended to the reduction of the number of brothels and prostitutes, and to the )iromotion of jiublic order in the streets? — No doubt. 708. Whereas, on the other hand. Inspector Anniss's proceedings, with the excei)tion of the case of Charles Turner, where the couvictioa that he obtained was quashed on the appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench, have been confined to the punishment of a fine inflicted on the brothel keepei-s, not for keeping brothels, but for harbouring diseased prostitutes ? — Yes. 709. And it is within your knowlcdiie, after having carefully read the Acts, that they contain no other powers under whieh iiny other informa- tion could have been laid by Inspector Anniss ? — None at all. 710. I will ask you a question or two about these " free-and-easies " to which you referred ; you effected considerable moral good, you believe (and 1 am quite prepared to believe), by closing those " free-and-easies " ? — There is no question about it. 711. By what kind of ])crsons were the}' fre- quented ? — By girls from 16 and upwards, and by soldiers, sailors, and civilians. 712. In what kind of number would those girls be present? — From 10 to 20 in each of those places, sometimes more. 713. And tiiose girls would be, according to vour definition of the term, generally clandes- tine prostitutes? — There is no question about it, because no res])ectable girl would be seen in those places ; and, not only that, but those girls have, on many occasions, been taken up after they have been in those singing-rooms by the police, for disorderly conduct. Mr. (Jshome Morgan. 714. Would they all be clandestine prostitutes; might there not be open prostitutes as well ? — If there had been other prostitutes, I should have been able to proceed against them, but I failed in my proceedings because they were not jiro- stitutes. Mr. Stanxfeld. 715. Under what Act would you have pro- ceeded against them? — Under the Licensing Act. The defence was, that they were not prosti- tutes. 716. Then SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS, 29 17 March 1882.] Captain Betjtton. \_Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 716. Then your proceeding would not have been against the girls themselves ? — No, my ar- gument is, that if they had been prostitutes, I should have had no difficulty in shutting up the houses ; but as they were not prostitutes I failed, and it was only at the annual licensing meeting that I was able to shut them up. 717. I suppose that their behaviour, within your knowledge inside those '■' free-and-easies, ' and sometimes outside, was such as to leave no doubt of their character ? — Xo question about it. It was proved in court not long ago, that on one occasion, after coming out of one of those houses, one of those persons who was alleged to be re- spectable, took up all her clothes in the middle -of the street and danced. 718. Can you tell us anything of their conduct within those places of amusement? — Their be- haviour with soldiers and sailors was, in the ■opinion of those who gave evidence at the time, Avhat no prostitute would do in public. 719. I think you have told us already that one consequence of these proceedings of yours was a gteat reduction, in the year 1881 as com- pared with 1880, in the number of convictions of women for disorderly conduct? — In the year 1880. I think there were 110; and in 1881 there were 66. 720. In those cases was tliere an appeal to the Quarter Sessions? — There was; that is to say, in five of them. 721. In any of those cases was Inspector An- niss appealed to to give any information in his power as to whether the women present were women on the register, or not ? — I can only ejieak from hearsay, from what I was told by the magis- trates' clerk. On the occasion of the appeal to Quarter Sessions Inspector Anniss was asked by the clerk to the justices if he could furnish evi- dence as to the character of those women ; par- ticularly with reference to one house that was most notorious. His reply was, that he could prove nothing. 722. \Vas that the very house out of which the woman came and danced with her clothes up in the open street ? — That is the hou the justices have refused to grant occasional 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, licenses to (hose places, without there Is a guar- antee of their respectability. I might be asked why [ did not proceed under the Licensing Act. I did on one occasion, and I was met by the solicitor who defended. I was called upon to prove that it was an habitual resort of prostitutes. That I could prove, but as these occasional licenses were not granted to the same individual, but each man has his own license, I failed in that, because, although it was the habitual resoit of prostitutes, I could not prove that it was within the knowledge of this particular individual that it was. There was no defence whatever as to the character of the women. 727*. I presume, therefore, that you are not prepared to admit the truth of the statement of Inspector Anniss, in ans^ver to Question 3240, that the local police would not interfere with immoral practices ? — It is the very reverse. He says : " The police do not interfere inside a house unless they are called in. We must not expect too much, I am afraid, from the police. If there is noise or disorder, the police are called in, and they see what is going on inside of that house, and take action thereon." 728. You do not accept that as a correct in- terpretation of your functions, or of the way in which you have exercised them? — Certainly not. 729. And you say that your evidence to-day disproves the correctness of that statement ? — The facts that I give the Committee and the convic- tions prove that. 730. Now would you turn to Question and Answer 4249, and tell us what Inspector Anniss there states? — He is asked: "'With regard to the borough and metropolitan ])olice, in what respects would you contend that the metropolitan police were for the purposes of carrying out these Acts, or for the purposes connected with these Acts, superior or likely to have or to be able to obtain better information upon the subject of the Acts V' And his answer is : '' In the first place, we are entirely independent of all local influence."' 731. In the first place, I will ask you whether you are independent of all local influence .' — Yes. 732. You can give us, I take it, some other reason for your independence than the fact (which I should not doubt) that you would not choose to be subservient to such an influence ? — My position is entirely independent of any local influence. I see that, in answer to another question, Inspector Anniss says, that we are under what they call a watch committee. I have no watch committee. All informations, all the summonses, all police proceedings, are initiated by myself, entirely in- dependent of any one- I am responsible solely to the county authorities. The public possibly do not understand what the gentlemen here would understand. Innuendoes have been thrown out against the local police which are not justified ; and I think you will allow that I am right in repudiating them, 733. Going back to the last subject that we discussed, viz.. Inspector Anniss's opinion that the local police do not interfere with immoral practices ; they do not go into a house unless they are called in in case of disorder ? — \Vc have no power to do so. D 3 734. But 30 MINTTTE? OF EVIDKNCE TAKtX BEFORV. THE 17 March l,««Si Captain Brlttux. < 'ontittued. Mr. Stnnsfeltl — continued. 734. But have you not at least as much {x>wer to enter houses as the Contagious Diseases .Acts" jwlice ? — Of course we have. 735. In fact vou hare power to enter, which thev have not ': — Yes, under the Licensing Act. 736. Can 'you suggest any other influences which have tended to improve the order and morality of the town during recent years : — There is no doubt that, particularly in a garrison place like the three towns, the improvement in the condition ot the soldiers and the sailors lias been very considerable of late years, and I can speak (^i that from my own knowledge as a soldier. Xot oniy have they canteens and libra- ries, and places of recreation, which they used not to have in former year-, but also the sailors, particularly, have been benefited by the Sailors" Home, under Miss Weston. I know of my own knowleilge that sailors, however drunk, in what- ever state they are, are taken in there and cared for. There is also, as far as the soldiers are con- cerned, an institution called the Soldiers' Home in Storiehouse itself, of which I can speak from personal knowledge, and there it has done an immense deal of good, because it is fixed in a place which al)0unds in public-houses. They do all in their ],K>wer to draw soldiers there : they have every Hnd of amusement : not only billiards and bagatelle, and all that kind of thing, but lectures of different sorts. 737. Speaking from your experience, first of all as a military man, and secondly as a superin- tendent of police, I understand you to say that, in your opinion, these imprcived conditio -iis and influences must have had an effect in diminishing the amount of sexual vice amongst the men r — In my opinion it has, certainly. 738. I suppose you would agree with the old saying that idleness is the mother of mischief? — No doubt. 739. -\nd that drunkenness is the mother ot a good deal of mischief too ': — There is no question that the more you can decrease drunkenness the better the condition of a town will be. 740. And the less sexual immorality you would expect to find .' — I should. 741. We have had evidence before this Com- mittee from 5Ir. Shaen and, amongst other sub- jects to which he referred, was a case of persona- tion of a Cont.-igious Diseases Acts" jxiliceman at Stonehouse ; I think it was a case where a Mrs. Holmes was molested by a person who assumed to be one of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police : can you confirm that evidence ': — Yes, that came under my knowledge. I made a report on it to Superintendent AVakeford, the su|)erintendent of the metropolitan police, and sent him up the whole of the jiapers : and, I have no doubt in my own mind, fr-om the evidence produced, that it was a bond pde case of personation. Mr. Cavtndish BeMtinck. 742. Do you mean that she was molested by the police ? — No. it was a case of personation. Mr. Slansfeld. 743. My Right honourable friend seems to think that a case of pers^ 'nation is of no moment ; bnt I presume yon would hold it to be somewhat Mr. i'tatti/'fW— continued, of an objtrction to the working of an Act of Par- liament that it oflered facihties for such cases of personation as this ? — Every Act of Parliament does that. 744. Where the jwlice are employed in their own clothes, you can hardly speak of there being facilities for j>ersonation ; it is the fact, is it not, that the Contagious Diseases .\cts" police are in plain clothes, and that makes personation j>os- sible ? — Yes, it makes it possible. Dr. FarqiihoTiOh. "45. Have you ever heard any complaints as to the way in which the metroiwlitan police carry out their duties -—Never. 746. You have never heard of any instance of harslmess? — Never any -.tuthenticated case of the kind. 747. Has any evidence come to your know- ledge of disorder or indecent scenes round the examination rooms ? — No, it is not in my district: but I should most likely have heard of it. and I have not heard of any. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 745. Referring back to Inspector Auni^s"s evi- dence, at Question 3240, he was asked : " Why were they not stopj>ed by the police ? '" And his answer was : "' The police do not interfere inside a house unless they are called in." Yon stated that that was inaccurate. I suppose, as a matter of fact, it would be true, would it not, to say that the pc'lice do not interfere unless there is some complaint as to the way in which the house is carried on ? — They would certainly not go into any house. 749. They would not initiate proceedings, simply because they believed that a house was used as a disorderly house ? — Are you talking of a public-house, or of a private house ? 750. I am speaking of both. They would not go in in the case of a private house, of course ? — Certainly not ; we have no power. In the case of a public-house we should go there. If I re- ceivedany information which led meto believe that immoral practices were being carried on, I should instruct my men to visit that house under the Licensing Act. 751. You make a distinction, therefore, be- tween a public-house and a ]>rivate house? — Yes, in a private house I have no power. 752. You spoke of eight private house brothels, and tliree other brothels being still carried on in Stonehouse; could you give me tlie names of them .'—They are three coffee-liouses. 753. You know tliem bv name, I sui)]»ose ? — Yes. 754. ilay I ask '.v]iy those houses were not shut up as well as the others .' — They have been proceeded against, but that does not of necessity cause them to be shut up. 755. Have you taken proceedings before the magistrates to shut them up? — One man has been convicted twice, that is under the Licensing Act, of course. 756. When you speak 'if three brothels, jou mean three coffee-houses, or beerhouses, or places of that sort ? — ITiere are 14 brothels, 1 1 of which are private houses, and three are coffee- houses. They are still allowed to go on. ft-o- ceedings SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 31 17 March 1882.] Captain Bruttox. [ Continued. -Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, ceedings have been taken against two out of the three, if my recollection serves me, and in one case, I know of two convictions against one man. 757. But as a matter of fact those three are known to you as being still carried on as brothels ? — Yes, I can give the names to the Committee, if necessary. 758. I want to be quite clear about an answer which was given to a question that I put as to the rotropolitan police being independent of all local inffuence. I hope you do not for a moment suppose that I imagined that you could be under any local influence. How many men have you under you in Stonehouse altogether? — Alto- gether I have 39. 759. I suppose they are ordinary policemen, are they not ? — Yes, they are picked men to a great extent. 760. Still they live in the town ? — They change about. 761. But, as a matter of fact, I suppose they would be of the same class as the policemen in Birmingham or elsewhere ? — One rule that we have is that we never, if it is possible, put a man where he has relations, or where he is likely to be mixed up with the people of the town. 762. But still of course they live there, and I suppose they would be very much like other policemen, would they not ? — Yes. 763. Going back to these convictions of this man Turner in the year 1878 : he was convicted twice, was he not, once under the Contagious Diseases Acts for harbouring a diseased prosti- tute (of coiu'se the conviction could only take that shape), and the second time under the Licensing Act for harbouring prostitutes ? — Yes. 764. I suppose that the fact of his harbouring a diseased prostitute would of itself be a record that he had harboured prostitutes, so that the one conviction would pretty well involve the other ? — To a certain extent it would. 765. You have been in the army; in the 57th Regiment, I think you said ? — Yes. 766. And you have seen some service, I imagine ? — Yes, in India, China, and New Zea- land. 767. Will you give me your opinion generally of these Acts ; you spoke, I think, of their having been indirectly the cause of a diminution of disorder in the town in consequence of their deteiTcnt effects ? — Yes. 768. That would be particularly the fact, I suppose, in the case of young girls who are not hardened to a life of prostitution ? — That is my opinion. 769. The Acts would, therefore, in your opinion, help to deter some girls from entering upon the life at all? — Xo doubt of it. My opinion with regard to a garrison town is that these Acts are very good for checking the spread of venereal diseases, and that they also act as a deterrent to prostitution. 770. Your opinion is an exceedingly valuable one, both as an otficer in the service and as a superintendent of police, so far, therefore, as your own personal opinion is concerned, you would be in favour of continuing the Acts, as I understand ? — Certainly. 771. Have you had any experience of the 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, treatment of these girls in hospital ?~Xo, exceijt from hearsay and from what 1 have read. The Lock Hospital is not in my district. 772. Have you any objection to state how far from what you have heard and read, the in- fluences brought to bear upon these girls in hospital help to reclaim them?— I have been told that in the Lock Hospital girls are reclaimed. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 773. Would that be the Albert Hospital ? — The Albert Hospital. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 774. In looking domi the return that you have put in of the number of convictions of prostitutes, I notice one rather curious fact, and that is that a great increase in one year is usually followed bs" great decrease in the succeeding year ; I suppose that you would account for that by the fact of greater vigilance having been exercised? — Not only that, but in some years there are more ships, and the garrison is lai-ger. 775. But there is a sort of see-saw up and - doA\-n ; for instance, I find in one year 110, and in the next 66 ? — That was particularly ex- p] alined. 776. But I think the same diminution from a very high rate to a very low rate occurs more than once, and I accounted for it in my own mind by the fact th:it your attention would naturally be drawn to the greater number of these oftences, and that you made the police exercise greater vigilance ? — Possibly complaints may have been made, and I have put on men in plain clothes, or something like that ; and there may also have been a decrease in the gamson, or in the number of sailors. Mr, Cavendish Bentinck. 111. I understood you, in answer to my Right honourable friend, to say, that you are favourable to the Acts ; have you any complaint to make of the manner in which the provisions of the Act are carried out by the police oflBcers ? — None whatever. 778. In answer to a question you said that on the whole they were very good meu ; do you con- firm that opinion ? — Certainly. 779. Were you in the room when the Com- mittee sat on the last occasion, when I put some questions as to whether there were any cases against the police of undue interference with- and molestation of women? — I was. 780. Do you confirm what whs said by Mr. Wreford and Mr. Lynn, who said that there was no such case within their knowledge ? — Within my knowledge there has been no case. 78 1 . No case of interference with or molesta- tion of a respectable woman ? — None, within my knowledge. 782. You were alsp in the room when I put some questions concerning a certain Mr. John Marshall?— Yes. 783. Are you acquainted with Mr. John .^ia^shall? — I know him. 784. Do you confirm what was said by those witnesses ? — Well, I forget exactly what was said. 785. Mr. Marshall, at the end of a placard D 4 (which ;52 MIXLTES Ol' EVIDKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 17 March 1882.J Captain Bkutton. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued. (wlilch I ])ro(luced to the Committee), which pur- ports to be issued under the auspices of the National Association for the Repeal nf Conta- gious Diseases Acts, writes as follows : " I have watched the operation of these Acts for more than 10 years, and I have rescued some hundreds of women from the tyranny and degradation of this fearful legislation.'" I put to you th.e same question as I addressed to j\[r. Lynn : Are any of these hundreds of women, to your knowledge. Seople within the boundaries of your district? — [one. Jlr. JViUiam Fowler. 786. I think I understood you to say that, as regards clandestine prostitution, you did not think there was any decrease of that in the town at all ?— My answer to that was that the figures given by Inspector Anniss were, in my opinion, quite absurd. 787- And you have no reason to suppose that there is any decrease in clandestine jjrostitution ? — So far as I know, there is none. 788. You consider that there is a large amount of clandestine prostitution in the place ? — I think so. 789. If that be so, I do not quite understand liow that fits in with your idea that these Acts have had a deterrent effect on the women ; if there is such a large amount of prostitution still going on, it does not look as though the system had had much effect ? — It reduced the number of professional prostitutes, the registered prostitutes ; but of course I can give no opinion as to the un- registered. 790. Except your general idea that unregis- tered prostituiion continues on a gi-eater scale ? — That is so. 791. Therefore, the deterrent influence is appa- rently rather upon a special class of women and not upon the men, at any rate .' — Certainly not. 792. So that as regards the general moral effect it is very limited in its character, if that be so ? — Yes, if that is the case. 79.3. I do not know that it will be necessary to dwell upon it, but you repudiate all idea of any local influence being brought to bear upon you, which I quite understood ; but there was an ex- pression used last year in a question put to INI:. Anniss, I think, by the Kight honourable Gen- tleman, the Judge Advocate General, to the effect that lie supposed that the local police were more. or less liable to be "got at"' by the inhabit- ants ; that is Question 4250 ; I understand from your answer that you entirely repudiate any such idea ? — Of course. They are not a bit more liable than jNIr. Anniss's men, 794. In answer to Question 4107 of last year's evidence Mr. Anniss uses a verj- curious expres- sion ; he says : " I think certain people who are mixed up in the traffic would so hamper the local police; that they would not be able to carry out their duties to the extent that we can ;" I appre- hend that you would repudiate that also ? — Entirely. jSIr. Hopwood. 795. You have, you say, 39 men ? — Yes. 796. You were asked whether they are ordinary police ; as I understand you to say they are really picked men ? — To a great extent. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 797. j\Ien who have been for a considerable time past in the service ?— ^lost of them. 798. And vou have had them under vour eye ? —Yes. 799. And you have every confidence in them ? — Everv Confidence. 800. Do I rightly understand that you change them about ? — Yes, they are changed about. 8nl. You were asked whether they do not live in the town, and wiiether tiiat is not a reason for sup] losing that they may be " got at ;" does not that equally ai)ply to the metropolitan police ? — Of course it does. 802. They are liable to tiie same influences of friends that they may make, and, in fact, to cor- ru])ting influences generally to the same extent ? — Yes, they are liable in the same way. 803. You were asked as to the conviction that Insiiector Anniss speaks of against Turner for harbouring diseased prostitutes, and whether that would not be sutticient evidence to show that the house harboured prostitutes; is not the har- bouring of prostitutes under the Licensing Acts a wider question than the harbouring of one woman ? — You have got to prove habitual re- sort. 804. You have to give much more extended evidence to make out the case ? — No doubt. 805. Therefore, that one case proved by In- spector Anniss, would not, as the Judge Advo- cate General seems to suppose, j)rove the case before the magistrates? — It would not be suffi- cient to prove a house to be a brothel. 806. As to your general approval of the Acts, I see that you confine it to two circumstances ; viz., the checking of disease and the deterring of" prostitution: the deterring you have explained to my hon(;urab!e friend ; as to checking disease, I suppose that if the disease could be checked by Lock hospital acconunodation or by other means of bringing the surgeon to the women, one reason for maintaining the Acts, in your opinion, would be gone, would it not? — If you had any means of compulsion other than the Act. 807. Then 1 luiderstand you to think that compulsion is necessary ? — Yes. 808. I do not know whetlier you have studied that at all, or whether it is merely a jjassing opinion ?— It is merely my passing opinion. 809. You were asked about the variation in the number of convictions which you have ob- tained, and it was rather suggested that your diligence was not continuous ; but that you some- times stirred to greater activity ; do you admit that? — If you look at the return, I think you will find, that in one year, as the Judge Advocate General said, there was a decrease, and then a sudden increase in the next year ; but, with the exception of that instance, I think you will find that up to the year 1880 there was, if not an increase, no decrease. 810. Then may I take it that you do apply the utmost diligence that you can to this question of securing order ? — There is no question of it. 811. I see you say, with regard to the variation in regard to the number of convictions, that sometimes that has been accounted for by the nmnber of ships that come in ? — Of course the larger the garrison and the greater the number of SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 33 17 March 1882.] Captain Brutton. [Continued. Mr. Uopwood — continued, of ships the greater would be the amount of dis- orderly conduct. 812. There has been, in point of fact, has there not, a great improvement secured as regards the conduct of sailors by the alterations of the mode of payment ? — I cannot speak with regard to sailors; I can only speak with regard to soldiers. 813. I thought, perhaps, you knew that the mode of paying off a ship had been altered, that instead of the men being landed with a sum of money at once, in the place, there are other means of deferring the payment ? — No, I do not know that, except from what I have heard. 814. As to molestation, how are you likely to hear of a respectable woman being molested unless she complains ? — I should not hear of it unless she complained. 815. If she made a charge of course you would hear of it? — Exactly; that would be the only -way in which I should hear of it. 816. If she were followed by a man, and dodged up and down the street, that you would never hear of unless she complained? — Not unless she complained. 817. Would that be, in your judgment, such molestation as a respectable woman ought to be submitted to ? — No, certainly not. Mr. Stansfeld. €18. I do not know whether you followed the evidence which was given by Mr. Shaen last year ? — No. * Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 819. Have you the Report of the Committee of last year before you ? — I have. 820. Will you turn to page 484; that is a return put in by Mr. Shaen, is it not?— Yes. 821. Will you read the heading of the return? — " Return by Mr. William Shaen, Chairman of the National Association for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts, showing the Ages of Girls and Women registered and unregistered rescued in the Devonport District by the Ao-ent of the Association, occasionally assisted by the London Society for the Rescue of Young Women and Children, from 29th July 1870, to October 1880." 822. The agent of association is Mr. Marshall, of whom you have been speaking .' — Yes. 823. The cases are classified, are they not, under the heads of registered and unregistered women ?^Tliey are. 824. The period in question is the 10 years from 1870 to 1880?— Yes. 825. And this is the summary. The number of registered women rescued by this agency in those 10 years is 171, and the number t)f un- registered women rescued is 173; is that so? — Yes. 826. I presume you are not prepared or dis- posed to question the accuracy of this return? ■ — -Certainly not. Mr. Alfred William Cosser, called in ; and Examined. Mr, Stansfeld. 827. You are the Chief Constable of the Borough of Portsmouth ? — I am. 828. What does the borough of Portraouth include ? — The towns of Portsmouth, Portsea, Landport, Southsea, and a number of other hamlets. 829. When were you appointed to the office that you now hold ?— On the 7th of December 1880. 830. Were you previously on the staff of the police in Portmouth ? — I was. 831. Since what time?— Since 1863. 832. So that your official acquaintance with Portsmouth extends over upwards of 18 years ? — It does. 833. To the whole period of the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts? — Yes, and beyond that. 834. I may presume, may I not, that you are intimately acquainted with the state of prostitu- tion at Portsmouth during that period ? — Cer- tainly. 835. Contrasting the year 1864, the year after you first joined the force, with the year 1881; ■would your evidence be to the eifect that a great improvement had been brought about in Ports- mouth ? — Certainly ; very great improvement. I am speaking generally, as well as of the order observed in the town. 836. I will classify those improvements, so as to bring out your evidence. Take first the number of brothels, including private houses, O.to. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. public-houses, and beerhouses ; have thej' been reduced? — As regards beer and public-houses, the public-houses certainly, and houses of that class, the resorts of prostitutes. 837. To what causes do you attribute the re- duction in the number of brothels, as far as public-houses and beerhouses are concerned? — Principally to the adoption of the Wine and Beer- house Act, 1869. 838. And to the action, I presume, of your police ? — Yes, consequent upon the adoption of that Act ; we had no power before. 839. I understand from you that, taking the period of your knowledge of Portsmouth from 1863 to the present year, you testify to great im- provements which have been effected in various ways ? — Certainly. 840. In the first place, I understand you that the number of brothels, including private brothels and public-houses and beerhouses, the resort of prostitutes, has been reduced? — Yes, most cer- tainly, as regards public-houses and beerhouses. My knowledge Is not so perfect with reference to private brothels. 841. So far as the beerhouses and public- houses, the resorts of prostitutes, are concerned, their number has been largely reduced ? — Un- doubtedly. 842. Has there been also a reduction in the number of prostitutes ? — I should say that there has been a very large reduction. 843. Is there now better behaviour on the E part 34 MIMUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IJEFUKE THE 17 March 1882.] Mr. CossER. [ Continued. Mr. Staiisfeld — continued. part of such women in the public streets ? — Far better. 844. We will take first the case of the re- duction in the number of brothels ; to whom, or to what, do you credit this improvement? — As regards licensed houses and public-houses, to the action of the local ])olicc, taken subsctiiiently to the ]):issing of the Wine and Bccrliouse Act. 845. I undt'rstand tliat, as far as beerhouses are concerned, your ])ower of dealing with them was increased by the Beerhouse Act, 1869? — We had very little power before. They can be deprived of their licenses now. 840. In 1869 it became a magistrates' license? — That is so. 847. Therefore, in 1869, for the first time you had the power of aj)pealing to the magistrates not to grant or to renew such a license ? — Exactly." 848. But with regard to public-houses not beer- houses, those I take it have been dealt with under the Licensing Act ? — They have. 849. 'I he Licensing Act existed before 1869, as well as since ? — There was the old Alehouse Act of George IV. 850. Licensed houses, as distinguished from beerhouses, have been dealt with, of course, by the police under successive Licensing Acts ? — They have. 851. How have private brothels been dealt with ? — When prosecuted they have been prose- cuted by the local police upon the action of two informers. 852. Under the Act of George IIL ?— That is so. 853 Have any considerable number been practically disposed of and clenred away by public local improvements ? — Yes, a large num- ber. 854. Now 1 will come to beerhouses that are brothels. Before 1869, were there a considerable number of those beerhouses which were used as brothels ? — There were. 855. And which afforded special facilities Hnd inducements for prostitution? — Certainly. 856. When did the principal reduction in the number of such houses take place ? — In the year 1869, at the licensing session of that year. 857. That is to say, immediately after the passing of the Beerhouse Act of 1869 ? — Yes. 858. Upon whose initiative did those pro- ceedings take place ? — Upon the initiative of the then head constable of the local police. 859. Then, subsequently to the year 1869, were tiiere any cases dealt with imder the Li- censing Acts in 1872 to 1874? — There were. I recollect two such cases of public-houses in 1871 ; one in the Grand Parade, in Portsmouth, and the other in Warblington-street, in Ports- mouth. 860. Were those licenses refused ?-^They were refused. 861. With regard to beerhouses, you produced a considerable and immediate effect, as I under- stand, in 1869 ; can you give us the exact num- ber ? — In 1869 the number was returned as 617, and as 567 in 1870, being a diminution of 50. 862. I suppose all those 50 were not beer- Mr. Stansfeld — continued, houses used as brothels ? — Not all ; but the ma- jority of them were. 863. And they lost their licenses in conse- quence ? — They did. 864. And all the work, as I understand you, connected with the refusal of those licenses and the closing of the houses was done by tlie local police, without any assistance from the Conta- gious Diseases Acts police? — Certainly. 865. Have you now an)' beerhouses of that class, that is to say which are used as brothels? — Not one to my knowledge. 866. Take the case of public-house brothels now as distinguished from beeriiou^e brothels, have licenses is like manner upon the reports of your police been refused by the magistrates? — They have. 867. You gave us, 1 think, two cases ; one a public-house in Warblington-street, and the other on the Grand Parade in Portsmouth ? — Yes. 868. These licenses were refused in the year 1871 ?— Yes ; both of them. 869. Have you any public-houses which are used as brothels in the borough now? — Not one to my knowledge. 870. Since when have you had none ; have you had any since 1876 ? — No; I think not. 871. So that this result has been brought about, if I understand you correctly ; thaf at present there are no j)ublic-houses or beer- houses uifed as brothels in Portsmouth at all? — That is so. 872. And that entire elimination of that class of bi'othels, you say, is due to the vigilance and activity of the local police ? — Certainly. 873. AVhat, in your opinion, has been the general result of the operation of the Beerhouse Act, and of the Licensing Acts under the ad- ministration of your department in respect of prostitution as carried on in connection with public-houses and beerhouses ? — I should say that it has nearly or entirely ceased. The owners art much more careful in selecting their tenants. 874. The operation has been to make tlie owners of public-houses and beerhouses more careful, be- cause they know that they allow their places to be conducted as brothels, under the penalty of losing their licenses ? — Yes ; and the tenants are also far more careful than they were formerly. 875. They know, I presume, from experience, that you would at once take action in any such case, and that probably the result would be, first of all the conviction, and then the necessary for- feiture of the license? — Certainly; if not, the tenant would be removed for a trifling offence only. 876. What is the legal consequence of con- victing a public-house keeper or a beerhouse keeper, of harbouring prostitutes? — Harbouring prostitutes is a serious ofi'ence, and the immediate result would be a change of tenant, if nothing more. 877. Not the forfeiture of the license? — Not unless the house was used ^s a brothel. Then the forfeiture follows as a matter of coui-se, under the 15th section of the Licensing Act, 1872. 878. Then the moment you prove to the satis- faction of the magistrates that the public-house or beerhouse has been used as a brothel, the license SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 35 17 March 1882.] Mr. CossEE. \_Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 15, ipso facto, forfeited? — Certainly; to the per- son, and probably to the house. That would be dependent upon the-action of the magistrates. 879. Evidence of prostitution on the premises would be evidence of the user of the house as a brothel ? — It would. 880. And it would be followed by these conse- quences? — It would. 881. Can you give us a return of the number of public-house and beerhouse keepers convicted under the Licensing Acts for all offences during your experience of Portsmouth ? — I can ( The same was handed in.) 882. Will you read to the Committee such of the figures as you think call for special remark ? — I should like to refer to the convictions in 1867 in confirmation of the statement that I have made with reference to the greater care now shown in selecting tenants, and in the conduct of these houses since the passing of the Licensing Act or Beerhouse Act, 1869. In the year 1867 the number of houses are stated to have been 892 and the convictions 106 ; In the following year the number of houses was 897 and the number of convictions was 94; in 1869 the number of houses was 949 and the number of convictions was 58 ; and in 1870 the number of houses was 899 and the number of convictions was 48. 883. And there are -50 houses which you told us' have been closed under the Beerhouse Act, 1869? — Yes ; in 1871 there are still fewer con- victions, and so we go on ; so that, taking the present year by comparison, we have a larger number of houses but fewer convictions, the number of houses being 957 and the number of convictions being only 30. I think that will be found to be the highest number, with one excep- tion, for 10 yeai'3 as regards convictions. 884. I see from one of these columns that the number of public-houses since 1868 has remained practically stationary? — It has. 885. The number of beerhouses has varied, but on the whole has increased ? — That is so- 886. But are not some of those beerhouses houses with simply off licenses ? — They are. The increase is to be attributed principally to that fact. 887. Then the off licenses have increased of late years ? — They have ; they increase every year. Unfortunately the magistrates have no option to refuse them. So long as certain condi- tions are complied with, the magistrates have no option. 888. Therefore, those licensed beerhouses in- crease ; otherwise the number of public-houses and beerhouses seems to remain almost stationary, but the broad fact most pertinent to our inquiry is that none of those houses are any longer con- ducted as brothels?— That is so. 889. Now let us come to private brothels, which are neither public-houses nor beerhouses. Are you aware that, according to Captain Harris's return of March 1881, page 20, if you take Portsmouth, which includes Gosport, a very considerable reduction took place in the private brothels in 1867, and that they were reduced apparently from 169 in 1866 to 130?— My atten- tion has certainly been drawn to that statement. 890. Have you any opinion to express upon 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. those figures?— I am quite unable to account for it. 891. The totals in Captain Harris's column are not the totals that I refer to; they include public- house and beerhouse brothels, and I propose to exclude them, and excluding them there is a large reduction between those two years 1866 and 1867 ; I understand you to say that you cannot account for those figures ? — I certainly cannot. 892. And you are not prepared to accept the accuracy of that proposed reduction? — Decidedly not. 893. At any rate it is within your knowledge of those figures that they were very shortly reversed, and amounted again to as high a figure as 169, or more ? — Higher. 894. They increased, did they not, until the year 1870 when the number was 182 ? — They did. 895. Did they remain almost stationary for two years? — Apparently so. 896. And then they dropped between 1873 and 1875 ? — It would appear so. 897. There is a drop which is noticeable be- tween 1873 and 1875, a drop from 182 to 141 ; do those figures appear to you to be accurate ? — I should think so. 898. Can you give us any explanation of the cause of that sudden reduction in the number of private brothels? — I attribute it principally to the demolition of the ramparts, and to the im- provement of a part of Portsmouth called Prospect-row, which consisted principally of brothels and low beerhouses. 899. AVould you explain to the Committee what you mean by the demolition of the ramparts? — Formerly the towns of Portsmouth and Portsea were separated from the other towns by ramparts and moats. Those ramparts were very largely used for immoral purposes ; for prostitution, I am certain for one thing, and I have no doubt for seduction also. Many persons would go there who would not think of entering a brothel. About 15 years ago the work of this demolition was taken in hand, and now it is very nearly com- pleted, in fact, entirely so, with the exception of about one-half of Governor's-green, at Ports- mouth. I think that has had a great effect in checking prostitution generally; at all events, the road by Prospect-row has been quite altered ; instead of a low narrow place as it used to be with nothing but brothels as tenements, or nearly so, we have a different class of buildings springing up and large wide roads and trees planted down them. 900. A double consequence has followed from the demolition of the ramparts : first of all, the opportunities for outdoor prostitution have been dirainished ; and secondly, if I understand you aright, the localities have been generally im- proved, and a superior class of shops and houses have been built, and the lowest houses^ including a great many brothels, have disappeared? — That is so. I may mention another place which is improved, although the improvement is not quite to be attributed to the same cause, where I think at least 30 houses are now untenanted, which were formerly occupied principally by brothel- keepers and prostitutes; and there, as well as in many other places, have wide roads been made. E 2 901. Where 3G MINaTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 17 March 1882.] Mr. CossER. [ Contmued. Sir Henry Wolff. 901. "Where is tliat .' — ]\Iilit:iry-row, Portsca, at the back of Queen-street. Tiiere are other courts somewliat the same, altiiough not perliaps to the same extent, in fact tlie court jjroperty is giving way to a better class of property, and the people are getting out of the courts, generally, I may say. Mr. Stansfclil. 902. Of later years has the number of these private brothels at all tended to increase?—! think not. 903. I see from Captain Harris's return that they have remained practically stationary since 1876 ; in 187G they were 13,'5, and now they are 135 ? — I think that for Ueccniber last tiicy arc only 132, including Gosport ; that would leave about 120 only for Portsmouth. Sir Ilerinj Wolf. 904. Is Gosport under you ? — No, it is quite separate. ]Mr. St mi sf eld. 905. You have undertaken, have you not, the prosecution of certain private brothel-keepers ? — 1 have. 906. That was under the Act of George III. ? — les. 907. Can you refer us to any eases? — I have taken action against four brothels in King William-place, rortsmouth; the keepers of those brothels were indicted at the Quarter Sessions, and the brothels discontinued, and they were bound over in the sum of 100/. in the usual way to discontinue it, and for 12 months to be of good behaviour generally. Since then I have instituted proceedings against two other brothels in Church Path North, with like result. 908. By those proceedings you have suceeded in closing six brothels? — That is so; and I have also closed one other without taking legal pro- ceedings, by sending to the owner of tlie property. That is in respect of No. 55, Creswell-street, in close proximity to a mission chapel, complaints having been made respecting the house. I knew the owner, and he remedied it on my repre- sentation. 909. It was not neccsary in that case to prose- cute ; he yielded to your representation, and probably to the knowledge that you would pro- secute in case of need? — That is so. 910. In those cases have you received any assistance from the Contagious Diseases Acts police ? — The Contagious Diseases Acts police were simjily called as witnesses to prove that those houses were brothels. 911. You called them? — Yes, as the pro- secutor. 912. But the initiative, as I understand, was yours ? — The initiative rested with two common informers, and I took action upon their infor- mation. 913. Of course you have had other prosecu- tions for ofl'ences against the Licensing Acts, and soon; have other houses been closed indirectly in consequence of those other prosecutions ? — They have ; in one instance a very notorious house has been closed. No. 19, Spring-street, Mr. Stansfeld — continued. Landport. There the brothel kecj)er and his wife were both proceeded against i'or larci'uies. 914. And, in consequence, the brothel was closed ? — That is so. 915. I think you referred to a house in Crcss- well-street that Avas closed in consequence of the pressure of your advice .' — It was. 916. Could you refer us to any case A\here a house has been closed in consc(iuencc of a prose- cution for selling liquor without a license? — I can. It is the case of a house in Bow-street, which was formerly kept by Jemima Francis, which was closed for a time. It had been a very notorious house for many years ibr illegally selling li([uor. I secured three offences against the woman Francis, and to evade service of summons she had her furniture removed and absconded ; but I found her, and she was sen- tenced to six weeks in default of ])aying fines. Of course she was turned out of the premises, and they were handed over to the tenancy of another person. I am not in a position to say that the house is not now, to some extent, used as a brothel, but not to the same extent, certainly. 917. Can you give the Conmiittec a return showing the convictions against brothel keepers from 1872 to 1881, for illegally selling liquor? — I can. ( The same was delivered in.) 918. Have you any special remarks to make as to that ? — Not upon the figures. 919. I see that the number of convictions was largest in the year 1872, when there were 10 convictions ? — Yes, the penalties at that time were not so high as tliey are at present, and therefore the deterrent effect was not so great. 920. I understand that since 1872 brothel keepers have been more careful ? — Very much more so; it is very difficult to detect, and we arc hedged round with restrictions which I think ought not to exist with respect to brothels. 921. You are under certain dilhculty in dealing with brothels ?— The detection of these offences is extremely difficult. 922. What would you suggest? — I would sug- gest that we should have the same power of visiting those brothels without search warrants that we now possess with them. 923. Do the Contagious Diseases Acts police possess that power which you have not ? — Cer- tainly not. 924. Therefore, in that respect, you are upon the same footing ? — Yes. 925. All the prosecutions to which you have been referring, I assume from your previous resi- dence, were conducted by the local police, inde- pendently of the Contagious Diseases Act police? — They were all conducted by the local police, certainly independently of the other police ; but we received some assistance with respect to the case of Jemima Francis, which I detailed. In that instance one of the constables rendered us valuable assistance. 926. That was in 1881? — Yes, and I believe he was awarded the sum of 10 s. by way of reward by the Commissioners of Police uj^on my repre- sentation. Sir Henri/ Wolff. 927. That was the only case in 1881 ?— Yes, that was the only cue that I am aware of 928. As 1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 37 17 March 1882.] Mr. CossER. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld. 928. As to the reduction in the number of prostitutes of which you have spoken, you say that the number has diminished, do you not ? — I do. 929. To what do you attribute that improve- ment ? — Principally to the operation of the several successive Licensing Acts, to prosecutions by the police, and to greater vigilance on the part of the police than there was formerly, and the advance, if I may say so, of civilisation. People set their faces more against this sort of thing than they used formerly to do. 930. The reduction of brothels would be a cause of reduction in the number of places of immoral resort. Ycu have referred to the effect of the demolition of the ramparts, and of those improvements ? — -Yes. 930*. Would you attribute any improvement in this respect to the earlier closing of public- houses ? — Certainly, I do. People come out of public-houses and beerhouse now, and go to their homes in time to get a night's rest. Formerly they were about all night. 931. Is that under the Act of 1872 ?— It is. 932. And you think that that early closing of public-houses has had a considerable effect in diminishing the amount of sexual vice ? — De- cidedly. 933. Then, I presume, your police have, as in other towns, taken measures to secure decency and Older in the streets, and from time to time prosecuted prostitutes for imjjroper conduct in the streets ?— They have. 934. And that you have done with vigilance ? — We have. 935. And you think with good effect? — I am sure of it. 936. You think that first of all the effect has been to promote order in the streets ? — -Yes, it has. 937. Do you think that those operations of yours have had any effect upon the number of prostitutes? — I think so. 938. ^Ye have heard, in evidence before this Committee, of the good offices of the Contagious Diseases Acts' policemen in warning very young girls away from a life of vice ; are those good offices, in your experience, confined to those police ? — Certainly not ; I frequently do that sort of thing myself. 939. And your men, I presume ? — Certainly. 940. In fact, would you not say that it would hardly be consistent with the ordinary kindness of human nature for a respectable policeman seeing the evident danger of a mere child, not to endeavour to restrain her from that which would be her ruin ? — I should consider it his bounden duty. 941. And you think he would take that course .'' — I think so, certainly. 942. Have you known your constables to take that course? — I have in many instances ; it is the common practice. 943. In what way, when they have made these discoveries, have they endeavoured to save those children ? — I am speaking of children that we do not know to have gone wrong, or to have com- menced a career of vice, but whom we have kept from falling. 944. My question is, what steps have been 0.75. Mr. Utansfeld — continued, taken on observing the danger of those children to preserve them from it ? — They have invariably brought them to the divisional stations and re- ported the matter, and it has generally come to myself, through one cf the inspectors, and the children or young girls have been handed over to a home, in most instances to the Home of Mrs. Colebrook at Southsea. 945. Therefore those young girls have been saved from the danger of falling into a life of prostitution by the action of your men and by the assistance of homes established by private and charitable jiersons ? — They have. 946. Can you give us any illustrative cases of this course of action on the part of yourself and your constables ? — I could mention a few cases. In the first instance, I have the name here of Emma Norris, aged 12, who absconded from her home near Southampton. She came to Ports- mouth, as she alleged, to see friends, but had none there. Of course the child was in danger and she was handed over to the home. 947. This child of 12 years of age, I suppose, from what you say, was seen in company which was evidently dangerous ? — The fact of her being alone in the streets would, in my ojiinion, be dangerous to a child of that kind. 948. She was seen by your men ; what became of her? — She was handed over to Mrs. Colebrook and ultimately returned to her friends. I com- municated with the friends myself. 949. Will you give us some other cases ? — There is another case, a young girl, aged 18, named Florence Pavey ; she was passed through us to the Home, and subsequently to Weymouth. The third case that I have is Jane Ballantine, aged 12 years. She was was a most remarkable girl ; she measured 5 feet 2| inches in height, and she was the finest girl that I ever saw of hei age. 950. How did you ascertain her age ^ — By asking her. 951. What happened to her? — She was also sent to the Home and retained there for a length of time, and, in fact, Mrs. Colebrook could not get rid of her, and I had to write to the chief constable of Edinburgh to communicate with her father, wfio was an attendant in an asylum, and he came from Scotland upon my representation and fetched her away. 952. Have you any other cases ? — I have the name of Christina M. Gray, aged 23 ; I am not so conversant with her case. 953. Was she also sent to the Home ? — Shq was. Another case is that of Alice Mitchell, aged 19 years. This girl I remember very well indeed ; she was found in a very deplorable con- dition on Southsea Common ; she was without a portion of her clothing, and what she had was saturated with wet; it was a most boisterous night. Her statement was that the wind had blown her into the sea. She was taken to the Southsea Station and brought thence to the Cen- tral Station, where I saw her and questioned her. She was removed to the Home, and subsequently her friends were communicated with in London, and she was returned to them. There are a number of other cases ; but they are so common that I have not enumerated them ; it is a question of common humanity. E 3 954. The jimiTEBi' 'Mr a»"^rDnjn3: .y.v-iy.v. Til. ^ Jikiira. .issiL. atiOk- 6>Mngiateb. .:»._ ~__-. r.:.".: i-r.oL-::: «■ -vroshmes.- iic djar iir-tiix — r-io— fe- or-iT-ri— n -Trr T t^^ rr -ike :t«-. .icro ■-■■^ -■■ ■ }■"=- v.- r.w. r5£«i H.- ft ian; ri-- 3*1 ' yrmxAMtfjv.- rfcitf • SiKTBil -faiiicE?- '^MmtfS'? ■^WlwEcias ttb«t-f— Oe < J^lee^»*-s^•e€J,^?«n- ^ '^— ftt (30«uiia.- J375 '.Wjutii^ tUct lA-cesa^' n^fthHy imu b Uw i' alt ill ji> mxnsaucr twp*— -IX ry*aa^.."^a r — ". ■■■ '''■^' hfr 4:1 >- •><». n r«nir -x(.{n:.>ic Tree. — " r^ lihaiJIic^efHba.TO«BBKxroin:«iatt? "■i^'nrr ', inion, represent the actual number of ■women and girls engaged in prostitution in Chat- ham ? — I do not think it does. 1120. I infer from your last answer that you agree with those who believe in the existence, to a considerable extent, of what is called clandes- tine prostitution, that is to say, of prostitutes who are not registered iu the district of Chatham? — Yes, I do. 1121. Do you think that your opinion is shared by people generally in Chatham ? — I think it is Bhai-cd by very many in Chatham. 1122. Have you made any specific inquiries upon the subject of clandestine prostitution in Chatham ? — Yes. 1123. "With what results that you may have recorded? — I have made inquiry amongst soldiers, thinking that they have a good opportunity of judging on the question of clandestine prostitu- tion. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 1124. Private soldiers? — Private soldiers, and non-commissioned officers as well. Mr. Stansfeld. 1125. And you have, if I mistake not, been in the habit, with reference to those inquiries as well as others, of recording the results at the time ? — Yes ; I made notes from time to time, and I have the substance of them here. 1126. And you are enabled to express the opinion, from your own observation, that there exists a considerable amount of clandestine pros- titution in Chatham ? — Yes, I have not a doubt of it ; and I think I can find it sustained by remembering that I have met with a number of women who are not registered. 1127. How have you come to meet with those who were not registered ? — Girls have been brought to me to get them into the refuge for young females, such as, I think, have not been reo-istered, and who acknowledge themselves fallen. 1128. In any other way that occurs to you to mention ? — Not at this moment. 1129. I now ask you as to the alleged reduction in the number of juvenile prostitutes. Question 5468, which was put to Mr. Stigant by the Judo-e Advocate General, was as follows : "Have you observed any change since these Acts came into operation in the number of young prosti- tutes ; -have they increased or diminished since the Acts came into operation ? — I am afraid to say that they are much decreased ; but I may explain that there would have been a greater number but for the Contagious Diseases Acts than there is ; of late years there have sprung up Mr. Stansfeld — continued, in Chatham some cloth factories, employing great numbers of girls, establishments that did not previously exist ; unfortunately many of tliesc girls spend their evenings in dancing saloons, and they appear to have gone astray ; many of the girls, even the respectable ones, after their daily occujiation, walk the streets ; it is very hard to say, because they are young people, that there is anything wrong in their being on the streets;" and then a number of questions follow upon the same subject ; I presume that you are able, from your own observation, to confirm that general statement of the number of girls in connection with the cloth factories, and so on, in Chatham, who have ai)parently gone astray? — Yes. 1130. But do you confirm the oj)inion of Mr. Stigant, that there is some, though not much, reduction in the number of juvenile i)rostitutcs, and that there would have been more of such juvenile prostitutes but for the Acts? — I could not say anything about what might have taken place under difierent conditions ; but I do not think that the number of juvenile ])i-ostltutcs is less than it was, so far as I have been able to observe. 1131. Have you any reason to suppose that there is an increase in the number of juvenile prostitutes? — I think there is. 1132. You are familiar with Captain Harris's Annual Returns? — Some of them. 1133. I will take the return for 1877; how many prostitutes does that return give under the age of 18 in the Chatham district? — One under 18. 1134. One under 17, in fact, and of course under 18 too?— Yes. 1 135. Was your attention drawn to that return about the time it was issued ? — It was. 1136. And did you read that statement with assent or with surprise 1 — I was amazed at the statement. 1137. Why were you amazed at it? — It seemed to me so contrary to what I had seen and heard many times over. 1138. Did you thereupon proceed to make in- quiries upon the subject, and was the result of those inquiries to confirm your conviction that the number of girls under IS practising prostitu- tion was largely more than was admitted in Captain H arris's return ? — I called ou a number of tradesmen resident in the neighbourhood most marked as the scene of prostitution. Mr. Cavendish Bentiiich. 1139. When did you do this? — Immediately after the return appeared ; 56 tradesmen and others, most of whom were resident in the neighbourhood, presented the following petition to Parliament : '" Your petitioners have had their attention called to the report of Captain Harris in which he gives the number of known common women under 18 years of _ age as one only. From observation and inquiry your petitioners are convinced that his statement is wholly un- reliable and untrue, and that there is a consider- able number of such women under 18 years of age." 1140. That perition was presented to Parlia- ment in 1878, was it not? — Yes. 1141. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 45 21 March 1882.] Mr. "Wheeler. [ Cojitinued. Mr. CavendisJi Bentinck — continued 1141. The report for 1877, of course, would not appear until 1878 ? — No. 1142. Was there not a letter which appeared in the " Times" a year or two afterwards, which has some bearing upon this subject, and to which you would like to refer the Committee ? — Yes, I have the letter. It was in the "Times" of April 16th, 1881. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1143. Who signs the letter ? — Henry J. Boys, St. John's Kectory, Chatham; he is also the salaried chaplain of the Lock Hospital. Mr. Stansfeld. 1 144. In that letter there is this statement : " It is evident that the brothel keepers of Belgium seldom dare to receive girls of extreme youth, or do so at their peril. Here at home in England girls of 15 or 16 years of age are con- tinually being decoyed into houses of ill fame. If any confirmation of this statement is desired I invite an investigation of the quarterly reports furnished to the War Office by the chaplains of the Lock Hospitals." In consequence of read- ing that letter did you call upon the writer? — I did. 1145. In consequence of your discussion with the writer did you apply to be furnished with the reports of the chaplains at the Lock Hospitals, to which reference is made ? — I did. 1146. Do you put in the reply that you re- ceived from the AYar Office ? — I do. It is as follows : " Sir, in reply to your letter of the 16th May requesting to be furnished with a copy of the last quarterly report of the chaplain of the Lock Hospital at Chatham, I am directed by the Secretary of State for War to inform you that it is not usual to give copies of such reports, and he" is therefore unable to comply with your request, I am, sir, your obedient servant, Ralph Thomp- son.'^ That letter is dated the 1st of June 1881. 1147. Have you found the youth of the girls upon the streets at Chatham matter of remark at public meetings ?■ — I could quote the remark of Mr. Stigant, as quoted in the local papers. The date of the meeting was on the 29th of April 1881, and at that meeting Mr. Stigant made a speech, in which he said he had been recently most pain- fully impressed with the number and youth of the pregnant women who had applied for admission to the union of which he is chairman of the guar- dians. 1148. With regard to the public behaviour of prostitutes in the streets, can you give us any similar evidence ? — On another occasion, at the annual meeting of this institution, the Befuge for Penitent Females, Colonel Fellowes, the Com- mandant of the Marines, spoke on the necessity of the authorities of Chatham suppressing the dis- graceful scenes that were witnessed in Chatham ; " these unfortunate women going about the streets in an ill-dressed and drunken state, and standing at the corners of the streets to lead astray young soldiers. Such a state of things was a disgrace to the town. Chamnaii. 1149. Is there anything in the statement to show that this gentleman spoke from his personal 0.75. Chairman — continued, observation ?— I think the following words imply that : " He also complained that the women would not even let the troops alone when marching through the streets on duty." I have to say also that I have seen the women on their way to exa- mination making signs to the soldiers when they have marched past them, which I suppose to be the same thing which the Commandant complains of. Mr. Stansfeld. 1150. Was any action taken by any public body in consequence of this speech of the Commandant of the Marines ? — Yes, the speech of the Comman- dant of the Marines was mentioned at a meeting of the local board of health by one of its members, JMr. Breeze. 1151. Is the local board of health the govern- ing body of the locality ? — Hardly so ; it has a limited power over the streets. 1152. But there is no other governing body, is there? — There is another local board for providing means for the payment of the rates. I think this might also be called the governing body of the district. 1153. This speech was reported; what was done upon that? — He recommended that the matter should be taken up in imitation of the Rochester people who had prevented such a shameful state of things under their byelaws. On this occasion Mr. Stigantjwho is chairman of the board, objected to any action in the matter, and so it passed. 1154. Now take the case of Rochester; is Ko- chester a corporate town ? — Yes. 1155. Rochester might have a byelaw which the Local Board of Chatham could not have under the existing state of the law ? — Yes, it has. 1156. You are aware, are you not, that local boards, unless they are also corporations, have no police powers ? — I believe that is so. 1157. And, therefore, what could be done in Rochester could not be done in Chatham where there was no corporate body ? — I suppose that is so. 1158. With reference to the behaviour of the prostitutes in the streets, can you refer us to any reports of cases of prosecutions by the local police and convictions of women for drunken, riotous, and indecent behaviour in the streets ? — I have made extracts from police cases re- ported in the newspaper press of 233 cases of prosecutions by the local police, and convictions of women for drunken, riotous, or indecent be- haviour in the streets. 1159. During what period? — Since 1876. Those cases I have casually observed in the local papers between 1876 and the present time.' 1160. Your opinion, as I understand, would be this : that these numerous cases of prosecu- tion and frequent conviction were evidence of the fact of drunken and riotous and indecent be- haviour, and probably operated to diminish that evil ? — Yes, I attribute whatever improvement may have been effected in the streets largely to measures of this kind ; and in none of those cases have I been able to discover that the Contagious Diseases Acts' police were either prosecutors or witnesses. 1161. You are familiar with the Contagious F 3 Diseases 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 iMarch 1882.] Mr. Wheeler. [_(Soiitiniied, Mr. Staiisfeld — continued. Diseases Acts, are you not ? — To a great extent ; I have looked tliein over. 1162. Probably you arc enabled from your knowledge of them to say (that whicli is known to the Conunittee) tliat they contain no powers of prosecution in such cases .' — I believe that that is the case. I might say also that I have reason to believe that rather a larger number of prose- cutions were instituted and convictions secured against drunken men. This also would have some effect in amending the state of the streets. 1163. Have you Mr. Stigant's evidence before you, and will you refer to Question 5573, where Mr. Stigant is asked this question: "Do you mean to say, as a respectable resident in Chat- ham, that you allowed this horrible state of things that you say went on " (that refers to indecent conduct on the part of a prostitute in the street) " to continue without remonstrating against it or calling upon the authorities to restore order?" And the answer is, "I do not say anything of the kind. I say we had no power ; we often drew the attention of the authorities to it, but we had no power." It is true, is it not, as a matter of law, that the local board, the sanitary authority, would have no such police power? — I understand it to be so. 1 164. But the place is under the county police, is it not? — It is. 1165. And they have power ? — Yes. 1166. And you give the best evidence of their possession of that power by your statement of the 233 cases which you have noted, in which they have exercised the power ? — Yes. 1167. Have you frequently heard complaints of such indecent behaviour on the part of the women going to and returning from examination ? — I have. 1168. Has that been a matter of frequent occurrence ? — Yes ; I could name at once a dozen persons who have complained to mc of the be- haviour of the prostitutes on their way to or from the examination. 1169. To what locality have those complaints principally had reference ? — To the thoroughfare leading to the Lock Hospital. 1170. Would they refer particularly to the corner ol what is known as JNlilitary-road and High-street ? — Yes. 1171. Have you had specific complaints from shopkeepers in the neighbourhood ; for instance, have you had any complaint from shopkeepers in High-street of indecent scenes in the neigldiour- hood of their shops ? — Yes. 1172. Can you refer us more specifically to any such complaints ? — Yes ; a respectable shop- keeper in the High street complained to me on the 6th of July last of indecent scenes ; women going up for examination, and soldiers with them. Other people have told me that it is a great nui- sance. 1 have myself seen soldiers waiting about, and passing and making signs to the women, and also the women waiting at the public- house at one corner of this thoroughfare, and saucily saluting the soldiers as they marched past. 1173. Do you mean that the women were waiting on their way to or from the examination ? — On their way to or from. Mr. Stunsfcld — continued. 1174. And close to the examination-room? — Xear to it ; on the way. 1175. In the same street? — In the great thoroughfare ; it is a road. 1176. We had it in evidence from Mr. Stigant, at Question 5715, that the women walk (piietly to the examination-room and back, and no one notices them. The question is j)ut to him : "You never saw women waiting about? {A.) No. {Q.) And the women come in one's and two's? {A.) Yes. (Q.) In fact, they naturally desire not to attract observation themselves? (.1.) Yes; they walk quietly to the place; no one notices tiicm, and they take notice of no one else." You entirely dissent from that statement and that observation of Mr. Stigant? — I was perfectly amazed at the statement. 1177. And you have yourself witnessed, and, as I understand, have received frequent com- plaints from others who have witnessed, scenes passing between soldiers and the women going to or from the examination-room ? — Yes. 1178. With a view to ascertain personally the actual state of things, have you recently visited that particular neighbourhood ? — Yes ; on the first convenient day after the date of Mr. Sti- gant's evidence. 1179. What day was that?— On the 29th of July 1881. 1180. What did you do upon that day ? — I went with a friend, at a quarter to 12, to the top of Railway-street, where several roads diverge, waiting there, and walking up towards the hos- pital. 1181. How far is that spot, to which you and your friend went, from the examination-room? — Perhaps 200 yards ; there is a pathway across a .field leading to it. 1 182. Can you see the locality of the examina- tion-room from that spot? — Yes; I have here a little drawing of the neighbourhood {producing a j)lan). The hospital stands within the green line ; that is a field ; the green line shows the boundaries of the field. We noted carefully 49 women and gii'ls pass up in about an hour and a-half, and 46 women and girls passed down. Dirty, rough-looking men were lying on the grass in two separate places ; others were sitting on the walls on either side of the road ; other men were in the road exchanging recognitions with the women when going, but more returning. There was much loud talking, laughing, and oc- casional screaming among themselves, and boys looked on. A number of the women, say a dozen or 20, visited one or other of the drinking houses on the way up or down. One returning ap- jjeared to have been crying as she passed ; another, too tipsy to walk straight ; two, or more, appeared under 16. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 1183. Was that in going or coming? — I have not distinguished in these three cases between going and coming. About the same number went up as came down. Mr. Stansfeld. 1184. Did you see any of the men go away with tne women retiu-ning from examination? — They SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 47 21 March 1882-] Mr. Wheeler. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld—conivavL^di. They did : and they cleared off about the time wheu the women returned from the examination. The language that was uttered I could quote, but it would be very disagreeable. 1185. It was obscene language? — It was. 1186. I think I understood from you that there were boys there at the time ; were they coming from school or going to school? — Yes, between 12 and two o'clock they would be dis- missed from the morning school and perhaps collecting for the afternoon. 1187. Is there a school in that neighbour- hood ? — Close by ; it is marked upon that plan. 1188. And you saw boys passing to and from school ? — Yes. 1189. And seeing the women passing to and from examination ? — Y'^es. I may remark also that there are 150 windows that overlook that scene. 1190. Did you make a second visit to the same spot ? — Yes. My next note is to show that my friend made a visit ; that I will not trouble you with. On the 3rd of August 1881, I went again with the same friend. We were too late to see the earliest go up ; but we counted 17 go up and 23 down. The more respectable ones were quiet in their behaviour. Two went up in a cab. The shabby ones were very different, loudly laughing and talking among themselves and with the men passing by. Three others were passing down, and one of them accosted a waggoner with a waggon and four horses. She walked close by the waggoner's side. Then his arm was round her waist. The loud laughter and the language of her two companions who had walked on attracted the attention of persons in the road. After walking unsteadily for some distance, we saw them both roll on the grass bank close together ; indeed the man appeared to fall on the woman. At this moment unintentionally, or instinctively, or unconsciously, I turned away and did not see them get up. 1191. On either of these occasions did any of these women notice your presence, or make any remark to you ? — Yes. they did. One of them said, " If you shut up that hospital I hope you will drop down dead." Mr. Cavendish Bentiiich. 1192. Was that addressed to you ?— Yes, it appeared to be. Mr. Stansfeld. 1193. The impression upon that woman inferen- tially being that you desired to close the hospital ? — Yes. 1194. Was any other expression used to the same effect ? — Yes, another said, " That is the old that wants to shut up the hospital." 1195. Have you, in the present year, visited the same place ? — Yes, I have, and I saw similar scenes and heard similar language. 1196. Upon that or any other occasion did you hear any complaint from any passer by ? — Yes ; ■from a woman there who had come to fetch her son from the school. She was shocked. 1197. You have told us of the numbers of windows which overlook this spot from which the women going to and fro and their companions 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, can be noticed ? — Y''es ; I counted 150, and there are more. 1198. Amongst those are there the windows of any institution with which you are connected? — Yes ; we have lately established an industrial home for young girls, from 12 to 16 years of age, girls considered to l)e in jeopardy for want of suitable protection; and some of the windows of that home overlook these scenes; and I have thought it my jjlace to suggest to the matron of that institution, that it woidd be desirable to keep these young girls at the back part of the house on certain days between the hours of 12 and two for obvious reasons. 1199. Have you made any inquiries to ascer- tain the moral effect of the examination upon these poor women themselves? — I have made inquiries, and the result of those inquiries is that I believe it has a very hardening effect. 1200. Have you made inquiries of nurses attached to these hospitals ? — Yes, of nurses from two distinct hospitals; but I should not like to be pressed for the names of those women. 1201. Can you specify to us any information upon this subject which you have received from nurses in Lock Hospitals'? — The statement is that after the women have jDassed through the exami- nations there, they give up all hope, all as lost, as to their character. 1202. That is a statement of the opinion which you have received from nurses in the Lock Hos- pital ? — Yes. 1203. And from the girls themselves? — Kather through other persons than directly to myself. 1204. With regard to the number of brothels, has it increased or decreased of late years ? — Within the last four or five years it has increased from 64 to 84, according to Captain Harris's Heturn. 1205. Accoiding to Captain Harris's Keturn, page 21, there were 64 in 1876, and 84 in 1880; were there not, with a steadily increasing number after the year 1876 ? — Yes. 1206. That number of 84 in the year 1880 is higher, is it not, than in any year after the year 1870? — That is so; but I ought to remark that this increase in the number of brothels synchro- nizes with the reduction of the military element in Chatham. Mr. Stigant stated that the number of military in Chatham had been reduced by 3,000 as comparing one census with another as between 1871 and 1881. I think he has a little overstated the matter; if he had said 2,500, it would have been nearer from the inquiries I have made ; but it will be seen that if the military element was so largely reduced by troops going to Ireland and to the Cape, and the number of brothels increased, and the number of prostitutes increased, it compels the conclusion that the vice of prostitution must be eating its way into the civil population. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1207. Has there been any increase in the civil population ? — Yes, not very great. It is stated by Mr. Stigant in his evidence. Mr. Stansfeld. 1208. In Captain Harris's Keturn for 1880, on the 31st of December 1879, the number of known F 4 common 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN ]U:FOnE THE 21 March 1882.] Mr. AViiEELEu. \ ConUmivd. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, common women was 155; and in the next year, 1880, it was 1C4 ? — Yes. 1209. According to Captain Harris's Kcturn. on tlie wliole there is a diminution in the number of registered common women at Chatham ; but in the two last years there is a rise from 155 to 164?— Yes. 1210. And your view would be, would it not, that the increased number of brothels, and lately of jirnstitutes at the same time, with a decrease in tlie number of military, indicates a larger demand and supply of prostitutes amongst the civil jiopulation '. — Clearly. 1211. Mr. Stigant's evidence gave us the population of Chatham in 1871 and 1881 at Question 5598 ; there is a difference of only 800, is there not, there being in 1871, 26,100, and in 1881,26,900? — By the late census there were 26,900 ; and by the former census, 26,100. 1212. Now, witii regard to the number of public-houses used as brothels, they are shown, by Captain Harris's returns, to have been diminished since 1870? — Yes. 1213. To what has the number risen since 1875 ? — As between 1876 and 1880 the variation is from 8 to 16 public-houses. 1214. There was a reduction down to the year 1876 ; in 1876 there were eight of such public-houses ; in 1877 there were eight ; in 1878 there were eight ; in 1879 there were seven; and in 1880 there were 16 of such houses; is that the fact, according to that return? —Yes, 1215. In Captain Han-is's Report for the year 1875, in paragraph 8 I find this statement : " The number of brothels (see Return No. 3) has been reduced this year by five, showing a total decrease of 683 brothels within the protected districts since the Acts came into operation. Of those, 110 were pul)lic-houses and 255 beer-houses. 1 regret, however, to say that there are 42 public- houses and eight beer-houses still used as brothels, notwithstanding the penalties imposed by the Act 35 & 36 Vict. c. 94, s. 16, the Intoxicating Liquors Licensing Act, 1872. Of this number, 17 public-houses and seven beer-houses are situated at Chatham. It is not fountl that the local authorities assist in the suppression of those houses." With reference to that remark, what have you to say ? — I have to state the fact that in the years 1873 and 1874 a very earnest gentleman was mayor of Rochester, whose name was James Letchford Edwards. 1216. This is in the Chatham district?— The city of Rochester is within the Contagious Dis- eases Acts district. In those two years, 1873 and 1874, I have the names of 10 public-houses prosecuted as brothels and convicted, the "Maid- stone Arms," the " Fortune of War," the "Buffalo." and so on. Then I have -also the names of five others threatened by the city police, and amended by the threat of pioceedings. That is my first reply to Captain Harris's statement, that it is not found that the local police assist him or his Institution in suppressing brothels. 1217. In Captain Harris's return for 1880 I find that, referring to Chatham, the number of public-houses that were brothels in 1872 was 27, and in 1873 it was reduced to 17 ; those are the Mr. Stamfeld — continued. 10 houses to which you refer, which were struck off? — I could not identify them ; it might be so. 1218. Then in 1874 the number was reduced to 15, and in 1875 to 12; and then we have a still smaller number,bnt they rise again in 1880. Those figures are as I have read them, arc they not? — Yes, in column 1. I was going on with my state- ment of the disorderly public-houses suppressed or amended by the local police. Three other houses were also amended by the threat of a parochial constable ; the names of those houses are given. Further, I have the names of a dozen others prosecuted and convicted in 1876, 1878, 1879, and 1881, principally under the Licensing Act of 1872; but I do not find that the detectives under the Contagious Diseases Acts have initiated those proceedings in any case. This in further reply to Captain Harris. 1219. Were those convictions for harbouring prostitutes ? — Distinctly. 1220. They were not for harbouring diseased prostitutes '\ — No. 1221. Do yon know a place called the "Brook"? — Very well, indeed. 1222. Is that in Chatham?— It is. 1223. Are there not there some public-houses which arc practically conducted as brothels ? — The case of the houses on the " Brook " is re- ferred to by Mr. Stigant, and by others who know the neighbourhood well, who say that they have little huts at the back which are suj)posed to be just beyond the boundary; or in some way or other not explained by Mr. Stigant, they evade the law. 1224. Do you say that those huts are outside the boundary of the borough ? — They are at the back ; they appear to be at the end of the garden. 1225. Outside what boundary ? — Outside the boundaiy of the jiublic house property, as I understand. I could not explain how they evade the law, except it be in that way, and that seems to be implied by Mr. Stigant's evidence. 1226. You mean that, at a place called the " Brook," there arc public-houses, and beer- houses, and lodging-houses which have cottages or huts at the back, jiractically in connection Avith them, but which they are able to say are not part of the same building, and that those huts arc brothels ? — Yes, I understand it so ; they are accommodation huts. 1227. You say that that is Mr. Stigant's account ? — He refers to them. 1228. And do you confirm his statement? — Yes. 1229. What it would amount to is this : as to the separation of the huts from the public-house that they would not be a part of the licensed premises ? — Just so ; I understand Mr. Stigant so, and I believe it is so. 1230. That might make a difficulty with regard to the withdrawal of the license ; but are those places visited by the Contagious Diseases Acts police ? — They are. I made it my business to call upon one man, who I believe has more brothels belonging to him than any other man in Chatham ; 1 call him the largest prostitution merchant that there is in Chatham ; he has three houses in front, and I do not know how many of those huts at the back. I might say, paren- thetically. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 49 21 March 1882.] Mr. Wheeler. [ Continued, Mr. Stansfeld — continued, thetically, that tlie thoroughfares from the main street to those places at the back are through narrow courts. The street is a short one ; but there are 36 of these courts. I do not mean to imply that they are all used in that way, but the way from the front to the back is through these little courts, of which there are 36. I called upon John and Fanny Ware, the proprietors of these brothels ; the man is also at the present time the licensed victualler of the " Devonshire Arms '' near by. My object in calling upon John and Fanny Ware was to understand the nature of these visits. 1231. What did you find after seeing this brothel keeper as to the visits of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police ? — I learned from John and Fanny Ware that the Contagious Diseases Acts police came there sometimes twice or thrice a week, and sometimes twice or thrice a day, to make inquiries after the women ; in answer to my questions they told me (that is to say, they stood both together, and I cannot say which made the statement, but they joined in the replies) that the Contagious Diseases Acts police never re- prove them for keeping a brothel, but come only for information about women, and go right up into the bedrooms to find the women they want. 1232. I understand that, in your opinion, this kind of open relationship and co-operation be- tween the brothel keepers and the police has a very bad moral influence ? — I think it has ; and while I am ready to admit that there may be many incidents such as we should rejoice in in the administration of the Acts, I lay infinitely greater stress upon this thing which we are now speaking of, the normal, never-ceasing influence of the Acts, which I shall have to explain a little further to make myself understood ; I submit that these visits, being paid strictly in the sense of conducting and not rejiroving a known illegal and immoral traffic, are and must be unhappy in their influence on the man who keeps the house, and the persons who frequent the house; each one of those visits must have some influ- ence ; we cannot meet without influencing one another ; and I think it cannot have other than a most mischievous influence, that while we all know that these things are contrary to the law of God and to many wholesome human laws, these visits are in the sense of conducting, and there must be more or less connivance with.the sin. 1233. Then this co-operation between the police and the brothel keeper, in your opinion, must exercise an immoral influence upon those who are parties to it, and wno are conscious of it ; and you would hold that to be not consistent with the proper functions of either Government or law ? — I would. 1234. In that particular case of your conversa- tion with the brothel keeper, to which you have referred, the man seemed to have the opinion that the police had a right to enter his houses without warrant, did he not ? — Yes ; and I ex- pressed a doubt about it, 1235. Did anything follow afterwards upon the expression of that doubt ? — Yes ; Inspector Nutt, of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police, politely intimated to me, a day or two afterwards, that the conversation that I had had with John and Fanny 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. Ware rendered me liable to proceedings under Jarvis's Act ; in reply, I could only intimate to- him that I was prepared to risk all consequences. 1236. You have expressed the opinion ihat this kind of relationship between the police and the brothel keepers is immoral in its influence, and also inconsistent with the true functions of botln government and law? — I think so, and I have said so many times. 1237. Is it inconsistent with any public au- thoritative declarations upon the subject of mora- lity ? — It is directly a contravention, I think, of the Proclamation of the Queen, issued on the 9th of June 1860, a Proclamation which is lodged' with the Clerk of the Peace, and which is read, as I am instructed, at the opening of every quarter sessions and assizes. A copy of that Proclama- tion I have with me. 1238. Will you i-ead the part of the Proclama- tion that you consider applies to this matter ? — The last words are, " We do strictly command all justices of the peace, and all other our sub- jects whom it may concern, to be very strict in the prosecution and punishment of all persons who shall be guilty of immoral practices, and to suppress all disorderly houses." 1239. To put it shortly, you hold a very strong' opinion that the relationships necessarily exis ting- between the Contagious Diseases Acts' police who have to carry out the Acts q,nd the brothel keepers who are subjected to them, are demora- lising in their influence upon the parties concerned and upon the neighbouring population, and in- consistent with the views contained in the Queen's Proclamation to which you have referred ? — Clearly; and further than that, it is encouraging the growing lawlessness and disregard of the law which every law-abiding citizen now has in- creasingly to deplore. 1240. Now, let me pass on to another subject. Mr. Stigant referred to the diminution and miti- gation of venereal disease in the Chatham Union of late years, and he attributed the improvement in that respect to the effect of the Acts alone ; can you point out any other influence to which that diminution may have been fairly attri- butable ? — Yes, I think that very much is due to the altered aspect of the military authorities towards the discouragement of the use of strong drink; that is to say, that up to just aboui; the time when these Acts were passed, there was a disposition on the part of the military authorities, for, of course, their own reasons, to discourage temperance societies being formed in the armj^ From that period to the present time they have been very much encouraged, and with the happiest results, as the Judge Advocate General knows well. 1241. I understand you to be of opinion that these facts must be taken into consideration in this estimate ; but what 1 wanted to draw your attention to was another matter. Is it not true that during the period covered by the Acts, 1864 to 1881, voluntary venereal patients have been treated elsewhere than in the union ? — Yes ; there is an institution called St. Bartholomew's Hos- pital at Chatham. 1242. Are you acquainted with St. Bartholo- mew's Hospital at Chatham ? — Yes. G 1243. When MINLTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 March 1882.]- Mr. Wheeleu. \_L'ottfiHued. Mr. b'tfinsfeld — continued. I24;i. When was that opened ?— It was re- opened in 1864. 1244. Did it receive Government jjatients until the new hospital was Iniilt in 1871)":' — Yes. 1245. Both male and female veneral jjaticuts have been treated in this voluntary hospital .' — Yes. 1246. Now take the reports of that hospital; do thev show the venereal patients separately i'rom the general patients ? — No, they are in- chuled in the general patients. 1247. Do you find that the general patients amounted, in 1881, to 387? — I think that is correct. 1248. And was the number of out-patients about 5,500 ? — Yes. and 76,901 in all since 1864. 1249. Amongst those a certain proportion (but you cannot define the proportion) were venereal patients? — Yes. on the statement of the con- sulting physician. 1250. And your statement and argument, therefore, are that the reduction in the amount of venereal disease in the Chatham Union may be attribvitable, or partly attributable, to the existence during this jiarticular period of this voluntary hospital which received venereal •cases ? — Yes. 1251. Biit on the whole are you prepared to say from inquiries which you have made, that venereal disease still largely prevails among the civil population in Chatham ? — That agrees with the information that I have received. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1252. But you do not know it of your own knowledge ? — No. Mr. Stmisfeld.. 1253. Is it within your knowledge, or infor- mation, that a considerable amount of practice upon the part of doctors and of the chemists takes place in the treatment of these diseases ? — It was in consequence of Mr. Stigant's state- ment at No. 5635 that the traders are extinct, that I was induced to make these inquiries, 1254. Mr. Stigant says, " Before the Acts came into ojjeration there were two or three Ioav class doctors and chemists who got their living from this disease, but they are extinct now ;"' do you deny the accuracy of that evidence ? — I did not believe it to be true, aud I immediately set to work to inquire ; and I have now before me the names of a dozen persons who, by common repute, have a considerable trade, each of them in this particular class of treatment. I have the information respecting this trade from 17 diffe- rent informants ; I could give the information that each informant furnishes, if it were needful, mentioning the infoi-mants by numbers and the chemists by letters. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1255. Are the informants the chemists them- selves ? — In some cases I had the infoi'mation from the chemists themselves. .Mr. Stansfdd. 1256. Your evidence clearly is that a consider- able amount of practice of that kind still exists in Chatham ? — Yes. 1257. With regard to the moral influence of these Acts upon the minds of the soldiers them- selves, have you for many years made it a j)rac- tice. as opportunity j)rcsented itself, of entering into conversation witli soldiers, both privates and non-commissioned officers, upon this subject ? — Yes, for a number of years past. 1258. Can you refer us to cases of inquir}' of that kind, with answers by soldiers and non com- missioned ofiicers, as to tiie moral effect within their own knowledge, or upon their own minds, of this legislation? — Y'es, here are a number of soldiers who testify that this Act presents a temp- tation to sin. 1259. In fact you have a large number of notes of that kind in your note-book, of conversations with private soldiers, and marines, and non-com- missioned officers, the efiect of those conversations being that they regarded the Acts, and believed that they were regarded generally, as an en- couragement to vice ? — Y'es, certainly, by those informants. 1260. I will take a case which you have num- bered, 1 55 ; will you tell us the particulars of that case? — A Serjeant of the Royal Marines savs he thinks that it is a good Act, for 19 out of 20 of them go with prostitutes. 1261. In the notes to which you could refer there are a number of cases in which those soldiers express the opinion that the Acts are a tempta- tion, and they give their reasons? — Y'es. A Royal Marine thinks, as the women are sujjposed to be right, the men are deceived. They go after the girls the more under that sui)position. 1262. Now, going to case No. 150, a private in the 2nd 5th Foot expressed to you this opinion: that there was an idea prevailing there that vice was safe, and that many went into it through that, but that it was fiilse?— Yes. 1263. Did he say that Chatham was as bad as other places as to disease, and that as to morals it was a contrast with Glasgow? — Yes. 1264. Did another private in the same regiment confirm all these views? — Yes, on the 16tli of May 1879. 1265. I will take No. 123; that is the case of a private of marines acting as a policeman at Fort Pitt Hospital; did he say that the supposed pro- tection is a snare ; and that the supposed safety makes more disease than ever in this place ? —He did, on the 30th of March 1876. 1266. Then I find other cases in which privates and corporals express generally the opinion that the Acts are a temptation and a snare ? — Yes. 1267. Have you spoken to civilians upon the same subject? — Y'es. 1268. And with the same kind of result? — Exactly : a ganger of coal-heavers amongst others. 1269. Take your note of No. 130 in the year 1877 ; wasthata conversation withagangerof coal- heavers of screw colliers in the Medway ? — Yes. 1270. Did he express the opinion that these Acts produced a false impression of safety, and led to the increase of vice ? — Yes, amongst the men over whom he was ganger. 1271. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 51 21 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelee. \_Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 1271. You began, a short time ago, to refer to certain moral influences which ought to have had an effect in diminishing the amount of vice ? — Yes. 1272. Take the case of married soldiers' quarters : what do you say about them? — They were erected in Chatham in 1864 and 1865 at a cost of 8,700 /., thus abolishing the former no- toriously indecent state of things in the barracks, which must have had an immense influence upon the character of the soldiers. 1273. Then I think you referi-ed, did you not, to the temperance movement ? — Yes. 1274. And you expressed the opinion, I think, that the progress of the temperance movement has had a large effect in diminishing the amount of sexual vice? — Yes, I mean that the amount of refomiation would have been very much greater from this temperance influence but for some ad- verse influence, that is to sayj the Contagious Diseases Acts. 1275. In fact you desire, in this part of your evidence, do you not, to refer to a number of moralising agencies which have been in operation, particularly during the period ( if the Contagious Diseases Acts, and which ought to have pro- duced a very great improvement in the moral condition and habits of the population ? — Yes. 1276. What about the increase, so far as the army is concerned, of the Scripture readers in the army ? — Scripture readers have been in- creased in number, and all those things are within the period covered by the Acts. 1277. Have they been increased considerably? -^Yes. 1278. Do the reports show a steady increase? —Yes; thus, in 1873, 64 readers; in 1874, 70; in 1877, 77; in 1880, 88; in 1881, 89; and in March 1882, 92 readers. 1279. What do you say about Educational In- stiutes at Chatham ? — There is a very remark- able educational institute called the Institute of Engineering. 1280. When was that built?— That was insti- tuted in the year 1872, with a vote of 21,000 /. 1281. In that institute have the men of the engineer corps the advantage of schools of in- struction which their predecessors had not? — Yes. 1282. Is there besides the Soldiers' Institute in Brompton opened by Miss Daniel in 1876, which combines secular instruction and recreation with religious services? — Yes, a very excellent insti- tution. 1283. Is there also a Soldiers' and Sailors' Home in the Military-road, Chatham, which was opened in 1877 ? — Yes, with temperance meet- ings every week, some of which I have attended and seen the work done. 1284. Is it within your knowledge that the sanitary arrangements of the barracks including decent arrangements for personal ablution, have been very much improved of late years ? — I am told that it is so, but I do not know it. 1285. But that is a matter of general noto- riety ? — Yes. 1286. As to rescue work, you are one of the committee, I believe, of the Chatham House of 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. Refuge, which Mr. Stigant notices as a small affair ? — Yes. 1287. I find that his answer to Question 5629 is, that there were never more than 12 or 13 in the Home at a time ; that is not quite accurate, is it ? — JS^o, 20 is nearer the number. 1288. How many does the report for 1880 men- tion as having been in the Home at the end of the year 1880? — Eighteen is stated as the number. 1289. Mr. Stigant is himself connected, is he not, with that institution ? — He is a subscriber, and heard the report read. 1290. And he spoke upon that occasion, did he?- He did. 1291. Taking the reports of that institution for nine years past, do they show about 150 cases of rescue which resulted in permanent reforma- tion ? — Yes, satisfactory reformation as far as we know. 1292. Now, coming to the question of the petitions in favour of the repeal of the Acts, have there been petitions for repeal from Chatham signed by a great many influential people? — There have been every year for a number of years past. 1293. Do those signatures comjirise magis- trates, town councillors, guardians, clergy, and others ?— Yes. 1294. How man}' of the clergj- ? — Eleven, including three canons, and one minor canon, in the one now in course of signature- Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1295. How many clergy are there in the dis- trict altogether? — I could not tell you the total number. Mr. Stansfeld. 1296. Have those petitions also been signed by the chaplain to the Melville Hospital ? — -Yes. ' 1297. What is that hospital ?— That is a hos- pital for the reception of veaereal patients from the navy and the marines, and other patients also. 1298. Have they also been signed by the Roman Catholic chaplain to the forces, by the Wesleyan chaplain to the forces, by the Presby- terian chaplain to the forces, by the Presbyterian chaplain to the Royal Marines, by the two high constables of Chatham and Gillingham, and by two medical men ? — Yes. Mr. Cavendish Bentiiick. 1299. What are the dates of those petitions ? — There is one in course of signature now. Mr. Stansfeld. 1300. These petitions are recent petitions, are they not ? — The one we are speaking of now is one that is not presented yet ; it has been signed partially. 1301. You have the petition there ? — Yes (^producing it). 1302. All those signatures to which you refer independently of former petitions, are contained in this petition which is not presented to the House ? — Yes, that list is supposed to be a list of representative men ; I have collected them myself, and witnessed them ; but there is a long roll of others, of ordinary residents. G 2 1303. How 52 MlNliTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN HEFORE THE 21 Morcli 1882.] Mr. Wheeler. \_Continned. Mr. Oshoriie Mmgan. 1303. How many signatures of town councilloi-8 arc there ? — I think three. 1304. What is the total number of town coun- cillors in Eochestcr? — I am not sure. 1305. Could you give me an idea of the luim- Tjer? — I have no idea; very likely 20. Mr. Siansfeld. 1306. Have you ever applied to officers of the army or navy for their signatures? — Fre- quently. 1307. And have you ever been informed by iiny of those gentlemen the reason why they declined when they declined to sign ? — Yes, they have either intimated, or alleged distinctly, that their Commission presented an obstacle. 1308. 1 understand you to say that in certain -cases in which you have, yourself, applied to officers in the army or navy, they have assigned as a reason for not signing the petition, that they thought it was inconsistent with their holding a commission in the Queen's service ? — Yes. 1309. "Was there a memorial addi'essed to the members for Chatham District for a repeal of the j^cts ? — Yes, in the last Session. 1310. That was signed by how many persons? — Twelve hundred and sixty. 1311. Are you speaking of one now in course of si'^nature ? — No ; there is one now in course of signature. Mr. Osboriit' Morgan. 1312. There were 1,260 signatures to the one that was actually presented? — Yes; this is a memorial to the five members of Parliament in- terested in the district. They each had a copy of this, with an intimation that they could call at a certain place near the House of Commons, and collate the copy with the original, and this is the original. 1313. They were not all electors, I suppose, were they ? — No, electors and others ; it purports to be so. 1314. May I ask what the total population of those places represented by the five Members is ? At a rough guess, I think something like 70,000 ; 1 speak without book, of course. Mr. Stansfeld. 1315. Opinion of Chatham is divided, I take it, upon the subject of the Acts ? — Yes. 1316. Does it come within your knowledge or observation, that so far as there is public opinion in favour of the Acts, it is based to a certain extent upon the fact that the cost of curing prostitutes in the hospitals to which they are sent, being borne out of the Parliamentary esti- mates, it is at the expense of the general ratepayer, and is a saving to the local poor rates ? — There is that feeling clearly. 1317. There is only one more subject upon which I have to examine you, I think, and that is the case which has already been referred to before this Committee, of Caroline Wybrow ; you remember the case of Caroline Wybrow ? — Yes. 1318. Did you make a personal investigation nto the facts at the time of their occurrence ? — Immediately after. Mr. Stniisfeld — continued. )319. Who was this girl, Caroline AVybrow ? — She was the daughter of the widow of a ma- rine ; a poor woman receiving parochial relief. 1320. The mother and daughter were in ex- tremely jioor circumstances, were they not? — Very : they lived in a garret. 1321. Were they recipients of out-door relief? — Yes; 1 .<. a week and some bread, for I cannot tell you liow long, but lor a long time. 1322. Did they take lodgings in Chatham in 1870? — About that time- They were living therein 1871, certainly. 1323. Did they live for some years in the same lodgings ? — Yes, they live there now, at least, the mother does. 1324. How did they get their living, so far as they earned money ? — The mother by nursing, and by going out to what is called char-work ; and the daughter by similar occupation, washing, scrubbing, and sometimes going in the fields. Mr. Oshoriie Morijan, 1325. Are these matters within your own knowledge ? — Yes, I know them very well. Mr. Sianafeld. 1326. The evidence that you are about to give is founded upon your own knowledge ? — Yes. 1327. They were very poor people, and lived, of course, in a very poor vicinity, and in very poor lodgings? — Yes. 1328. Have you reason to believe, from in- quiries that you made at tlie time when they first came to Chatham, that ihe lodgings which they occupied were not shared by any women of im- moral character .' — The mother assured me that when she took the lodgings there were no prosti- tutes in the house. 1329. That is all you can say ? — Yes. 1330. In those poor lodgings there would naturally, would there not, be a frequent change of lodgers ? — There liave been a great many changes. 1331. And if, in the course of time, from time to time parts of the same house became occupied by women of bad character, that would not, in your opinion, be a justification for calling the house a brothel, and the mother and daughter the inmates of a brothel ? — The woman would have no control over the rece])tion of tenants in other parts of the house. 1332. She occupied her own room ? — Yes. 1333. You have seen her in that room? — Yes. 1334. Now I will take you to the year 1875. In January 1875, did a Contagious Diseases Acts" police oflficer go to the house and order the girl Caroline to go up for examination to the Lock Hospital ? — Yes. 1335. How do you know that he did so? — I have seen letters from the Home Office and letters from the police stating that, and I have copies of them. 1336. Then I had better bring you at once to evidence which cannot be disputed. Do you put in the documents which I have before me, viz., first of all the statutory declaration by the mother and the daughter, made by them in November 1875, and which was sent to the Home Office in January SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 53 21 March 1882.] Mr. Wheeler. [ Continued. Mr. Staiisfeld — continued. January 1876, with a letter signed by Mr. Shaen, who is the president of the National Association for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — Yes, and I am one of the general committee. 1337. You also put in a letter of the Home Office in reply, dated the 22nd of February 1 876, with copies of the reports of the police and the surgeons? — Yes. ( The same were delivered in.) 1338. I would ask you, in answering the ques- tion that I am about to put, to give me answers which will be established by the contents of these papers ; they are sufficiently in your mind, I suppose, to enable you to follow the questions ? — Yes, I think so : indeed I have copies here. 1339. You gather, do you, from these papers, that in January 1875 the Contagious Diseases Acts" police officer went to the house and ordered the girl to go up for examination to the Lock Hospital ? — Yes. 1340. Did the girl refuse to. go, saying that she had done nothing wrong, and that she would not go ? — Yes. 1340* In fact most of the particulars would be contained in the statutory declaration, would they not? — Just so. 1341. The officer in a report of the 16th of June, which is quoted in a Home Office letter of February 22nd, appears to have stated that he found her in a brothel with two prostitutes ? — Yes. 1342. But, as I understand, you visited the house ; you have seen the mother and the girl in her room, and your statement is that certain rooms in the house may be occupied bv prosti- tutes, but that the room occupied by the mother and daughter is not a brothel? — That part is not a brothel, certainly. 1343. The policeman says in his report, " I called on her and directed her to attend for medical examination : at that time I found her in a brothel with two prostitutes "" ? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morrjan. 1344. It does not say that the house in which her mother lived was a brothel ? — No. She was at the time when the policeman called and warned her up scrubbing the room below occu- pied by a prostitute to earn a few coppers. Mr. Stansfeld. 1345. Is it not true that Carolme Wybrow, in ber statutory declaration, declares that the call was made upon her in her mother's room ? — Not so ; in the house in which her mother lived whilst she was scrubbing the room belonfino- to a prostitute in the lower part of the house. 1346. The policeman states that he found her in a brothel with two prostitutes, and the statu- tory declaration of the girl is that she was employed, being a poor person, in scrubbing a room which belonged to a prostitute ? — Yes ; on the lower floor. 1347. The policeman directed her, according to his statement, to attend for medical examina- tion ? — Yes. 1348. Was that proceeding on the part of the policeman in accordance with your reading of 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, the Acts ? — I am not a lawyer, but it is not as I understand it, certainly. 1349. Is not this within your knowledge of the Acts : that unless a woman chooses of her own will to attend she must be summoned before a magistrate ? — I understand it so. 1350. The policeman came a second time ; that is in evidence upon this document, is it not? —Yes. 1351. And then he saw the mother; and did he repeat his injunction that the girl must go up for examination, or that she would be sent to ^Maidstone Gaol ; is that upon the statutory declaration of the mother and daughter ? — I think it is. The man repeated the order that she should attend, and he threatened her with im- prisonment at Maidstone Gaol if she should refuse. 1352. Then did the mother and daughter go to the Lock Hospital upon the 22nd of January ? — Yes. 1353. Did they there see the police inspector? — Yes. 1354. Did he, according to their statement, in the statutory declaration, ask the girl's name and fill up a paper which he told her to sign ? — Yes. 1355. Was that the form of the so-caUed volun- tary submission ? — Yes. 1356. Have both mother and daughter in the statutory declaration, which is now before the Committee, affirmed that that document was never read over to them or explained to them? — Yes, they said so. 1357. But the officer, on the other hand, states that it was read and explained ? — Yes. 1358. The ^irl was then taken to the examina- tion room ? — hhe was sent in. 1359. And it is stated, is it not, in these docu- ments, that she was found unfit from her bodily condition to be examined, and she was ordered to attend again on that day week? — Yes. 1360. Did she go up that day week after another call from the police officer? — Yes. 1361. Did she see the visiting surgeon. Dr. Jardine ? — Yes. 1362. Did he order her to mount the examina- tion chair ? — Yes. 1363. Did she refuse?— Yes. 1364. Did he finally call in one of the police officers and tell him not to let her go out ? — Yes. 1365. Was she then taken by a nurse Into the hospital, and were her clothes taken away whilst she was in a bath, and were prison clothes substi- tuted ? — Yes. 1366. Does it appear to you that her detention was legal under the Acts? — Not as I understandit. 1367. She could .only be legally imprisoned, could she, upon summary conviction by the magis- trates under the Acts ? — So far as I could under- stand. 1368. On the following day was she brought before another surgeon. Dr. Weld, who told her to go on the chair ? — Yes. 1369. Did she again refuse ? — She again re- fused. 1370. Was she again sent back to the ward, and kept in bed for several days ? — Yes. 1371. Was she again and again urged to sub- mit to examination ? — Yes. G 3 1372. But 54 MINI TKS OK EVIDKNCK TAKEN BKFOUK THK 21 Marc/i 16S2.J Mr. Wheelek. [ Continued. Mr. Slansfeld — continued. 1372. But she refused? — Every time she re- fused. 1373. Did the girl at last contrive to get another girl to send a note to her mother, in con- sequence of which did l\er mother come and see her daughter in tiie presence of Dr. Weld ? — Yes. 1374. And Dr. Weld, according to the statu- tory declaration of the mother and daughter, accused the daughter of liaving been with all the soldiers in the barracks, and of having the disease fearfully? — Yes. 1375. But previously to that statement, con- firmed by the statements of the doctors them- selves, he had not at that time examined her ? — No. 1376. Taking the report of the policeman, Capon, does it not appear from that report that Dr. Weld certified her to be diseased ? — Yes. 1377. But at that time she had not been examined ; what was written over her bed ? — In the first instance nothing ; afterwards " Gonor- rhoea."' 1378. After she had been confined for a whole week, did both of the doctors see her, and per- suade her to be exainined, as the only way of clearing her character?— Yes. and of getting her liberty, as I understand. 1379. At last she consented, and she was examined, upon condition that they would not use an instrument, by Dr. Jardine, Dr. Weld being present? — Yes. 1380. As the result of that examination she was told, was she not, that she would be dis- charged? — Dr. Jardine said : " It is as you say; you will have your liberty to-morrow." 1381. Did the matnm. Miss Webb, give her food and money? — Yes, she gave her abundance of food that day ; the nurses gave her 6 d. each, and Miss Webb gave her mother 5 s. for her on a subsequent day. 1382. According to the statutory daclaration, she said that she told the matron that she should be ashamed to go home ; she asked if she could not be sent to one of the Homes that she had heard the girls talk about ; and the nurse re- plied, "■ No, because you have not done anything naughty ?" — Yes. 1383. Amongst these papers are the reports of Mr. Stansfeld — continued. Dr. Weld, and, I presume, also of Dr. .lardine ? — Yes. 1384. Dr. Weld intimates in his report, does he not, that when he examined the girl upon the first occasion, only indiHereutly, she was sufiering from a copious thick discharge, which, from its appearance, hail the character of a gonorrhceal discharge ? — He states so. 138.5. But he does not allege her to have been actually diseased ? — No. 1386. But when it came to the actual exami- nation it is clear, is it not, that both surgeons found that she was not diseased, because she was discharged ? — Tiiey said, '• You will have your liberty to-morrow." 1387. According to Dr. Weld's statement of the 1st of February he examined her only in- dift'erently, tiie girl stating that she really was not examined, and that the real examination was at a later iiate, after which she was discharged? —Yes. 1388. In the reports of the medical men do they deny the girl's statement that at that time she was a virgin ? — No. neither of them. 1389. You have had interviews with both those officers, have you not? — Yes. 1390. And you are prepai-ed to say that they do not deny that the girl's account of her condi- tion at that time was an accurate account '. — Neither of them denies her chastity. 1391. Can you tell us what either Dr. Weld or Dr. Jardine said ? — Yes, I can recollect a few words of each. Dr. Weld said, " A man may make a mistake once in his life." Dr. Jardine said, '• The blame rests with the police." I thought it was due to them to tell them what was coming. 1392. Did not the statutory declaration of the mother and daughter contain this statement: that when the mother saw Dr. Weld on the day after the examination he said to her, " I am ha]ipy to tell you that I have found your daughter to be perfectly what she professed, and anything that I can do for her I will do with pleasure " ? — Certainly. 1393. Was she afterwards required to go up for examination ? — She was never molested after- wards. 1394. In 1876 was the girl married to a soldier? — Yes. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 55 Friday, '2Ath March 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT -Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. General Burnaby. Dr. Cameron. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Shaughnessy Mr. ^tansfeld. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr. Frederic Wheeler, re-called ; and further Examined. Dr. Farquharsun. 1395. I think you rannot say from your own general observation that clandestine prostitution has increased in Chatham ? — 'So ; not so much from personal observation as fi'om testimony. 1396. But, of course, there is the difficulty that if you have no access to the register, you do not know what women you see on the stree ts casually are registered, and what are not ? — Just so. 1397. So that there is a natural fallacy ? — Yes ; and that is a point which I intended to refer to, and which was certain to arise. I spoke of the girls passing through my hands (speaking metaphorically) on their way to homes, and I thought that there were amongst those girls a number who were jiractising prostitution, but who were not registered ; but, on looking it over thoughtfully afterwards, we are quite cer- tain that a number of girls might be registered ■without my knowing it. Again, it is not very easy to say, so as to satisfy every hearer, what a prostitute is ; the definition is difficult ; so that it must be only a modified statement. 1398. Then you admit the fallacy that I refer to ? — The difficulty, if you please. 1399. In answer to Question 1127 you say: " Girls have been brought to me to get them into the refuge for young females, such as have not been registered, and who acknowledge themselves fallen " ? — Yes, those are the girls I speak of. Every one of them might have been registered without my knowing it, but I believe there were such amongst them. 1400. But those were girls who may have been seduced ; there is no reason to suppose that those girls ai'e what you call clandestine prosti- tutes, inasmuch as they may have simply fallen on one occasion, and may be desirous of redeem- ing their character without in any way going upon the streets ? — Some of both classes. I have the names before me of some that have occurred to my recollection since I was here before. 1401. Would not another difficulty be that if the behaviour of the clandestine prostitutes on the streets was such as to attract your attention, and that of others, it would be sufficiently glaring to attract the attention of the officers under the Contagious Diseases Acts, who would make in- quiries ? — Yes ; but it does not rest upon my observation merely, but more upon testimony, as I have already stated. 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued. 1402. But may not the testimony of your in- formants be derived from that class of observa- tion as to which you have acknowledged that there is a difficulty ? — There are informants who do not feel all that kind of difficulty that I do. The kind of testimony that I proposed, if it had been admissible, would have been that of persons who have abundant opportunity, which I have not, of testing the habits of this class, 1403. I think you have also stated that you do not quite agree in the statements of some wit- nesses as to the diminution of juvenile prosti- tution at Chatham. In answer to Question 1138, you affirm your conviction " that the num- ber of girls under 18 practising prostitution was largely more than was admitted in Captain Harris's return"?— sClearly. 1404. And, in order to back up your opinion, you refer, in answer to Question 1147, to a speech made by Mr. Stigant, in which he says : " He had been recently most painfully impressed with the number and youth of the pregnant women who had applied for admission to the union of which he is chairman of the guardians ; " but there is no proof that those women were what are called juvenile prostitutes ? — Not at ail ; it is only a presumption. 1405. They may have been women who had been seduced and had become pregnant, and probably had not gone into what we may call prostitution at all ? — Possibly ; it is impossible to say how far they had gone. 1406. Then that is another difficulty you admit ?— It is a want, certainly 1407. I think you admit that the number of registered prostitutes at Chatham has diminished? — Yes. 1408. But I think you also say that the number of brothels has increased ? — According to Captain Harris's return they have. It has increased within four years ; I speak of four years past. 1409. To what is that due. Why should there be more brothels and fewer prostitutes ? — The number of prostitutes has also increased. I pointed to both returns of Captain Harris. 1410. But 1 thought you stated that the num- ber of registered prostitutes had diminished ? — That is looking a long way back. I could not deny that. The number of registered prostitutes returned is smaller clearly, but I speak of four G 4 years 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 24 3Tareh 1882.] Mr. Wheelee. [Continued. Dr. Farqnharson — continued, years past especially ; and during those four years, •while the military element was in course of re- duction^ the number of brothels was increasing, and the number of prostitutes as well, if not in the four years, certainly in the last year or two. 1411. And I think you admit also that there is an improvement in the general appearance and behaviour of the prostitutes? — I refer there, more especially, to their dress. 1412. I think you attribute that improvement to two possible reasons, viz., to the action of the police, and to moral and religious agencies? — Yes. 1413. The action of the police can have no effect in improving the dress of the prostitutes, can it ? — I am not sure of that. 1414. In what way can it have that effect ? — The dress is referred" to by Mr. Stigant and by others as a part of the demeanour of the women. He talks of them as being ill-dressed and shame- less. 1415. But the police have only to do with their police action in the streets ? — Certainly, within their strict duty. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1416. The police would not take up or proceed against a woman for being ill-dressed' — Certainly not. Dr. Furquharson. 141'7. You refer, therefore, more to the moral and religious agencies ? — Yes. 1418. But I suppose you admit that there are also moral and religious agencies in connection with the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I do not deny that there are such. 1419. Do you not think that those moral and religious agencies have reallj' a better chance of operating on the women when you get them quietly in a hospital where they have some time to reflect, and have the beneficent ministrations of the chaplain and matron brought to bear upon them? — If there were no adverse influences it might. 1420. Therefore, although you say, in answer to Question 1115, that you are at a loss to see the connection between the action of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts and this improvement, you think it, notwithstanding, possible that the moral and religious influences brought to bear on the women by the Acts may have improved their dress, at all events? — I do not think I have said that ; but I think it is very likely. Certainly they can dress better than they could. 1421. I think you have admitted a certain pos- sible connection between the action of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts and the moral and religious influences brought to bear upon the women in connection with those A cts ; you have admitted that it is quite possible that the moral and religious operation of the Acts and the influences brought to bear upon the women in the hospitals may do good ? — Yes, to some extent. I could not deny that ; that is so sometimes. 1422. Then in that case you modify the answer which you gave to Question 1115, that you are at a loss to see the connection between the action of the Contagious Diseases Acts and this im- pi'ovement ? — Yes, and this improvement in dress Dr. Farquharson — continued, and demeanour. This improvement, I under- stand, to refer to the improved appearance of the streets, such as Mr. Stigant described. 1423. Of which you have stated that their dress and general deportment is an important part, therefore I need not press tliat point any further. Do you not think it quite possible that the actual examination of the women may have something to do with their improved dressing ? — It is quite possible. 1424. There is nothing that a woman is so sen- sitive about as being examined by a medical man when her clothes are in a dirty state ? — She must feel it. 1425. Therefore, if she is examined once a fortnight by a doctor, in that case she would naturally dress a little better, and be a little cleaner upon the occasion upon which she was going to be examined ? — Yes, the doctor has told me that. 1426. Therefore, that influence brought to bear once a fortnight cannot be without some perma- nent effect upon her moral nature ? — Upon her dress certainly ; but I distinguish that from moral considerations. 1427. The action of the Contagious Diseases Acts then has had an influence in improving the condition of the women as far as dress is con- cerned ? — Yes, it has made them what some call a more respectable class ; that means, in appear- ance. That, I think, is admitted. They have more mouey and better dress. 1428. I think you also say that these examina- tions are hardening: what do you exactly mean by the term " hardening '" as applied to the women ? — I think I could explain it best by the language of a witness before the Royal Commis- sion with whom I was rather intimately ac- quainted, a policeman, who said that he observed that they were greatly distressed on going up the first time, but that gradually that distress dis- appeared, and that they appeared able to bear it without suffering that distress. 1429. That is to say, they were distressed on the first occasion, because they did not quite know what was going to happen ? — He did not say that. 1430. I am putting my interpretation upon it. Then when they find out that the process of examination is not so formidable as they exiiected the dread goes off"; do you accept that? — I have no testimonv that they do make that discovery. 1431. Then what is the hardening to which vou refer : is the hardening physical, or moral ? — Moral hardening, I speak of. 1432. But you are now rather touching on the physical side ; you say that when they have gone through the examination for some time, they do not seem to mind it afterwards ? — That is a moral process ; they become inured to it. 1433. Is this on account of the actual physical operation of the examination ? — It is not con- fined to that by any means, I think. I am dependent upon the testimonv of others for this. 1434. Are you aware that a large number of women of the highest virtue and moi-ality have to undergo these examinations in hospitals and m private practice, very frequently as often as once •a day? — When they are known to have known disease probably. 1435. To SELECT COMMITTEE ON COXTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 57 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheeler. [ Continued. Dr. Farquliarson — continued. 1435. To find out whether there is any disease or not ? — With their own consent. 1436. And for what we call diagnostic pui'- poses ? — They are not driven to it by the police. 1437. They want to know what is the matter with them, and they voluntarily permit a medical man to make an examination, which he holds to be necessary, in order to find out v/hat is the matter ? — It is done. 1438. Would you hold that those women are hardened by that process, and that " they give up all hope, all as lost, as to their character," as you say, in answer to Question 1201 'i — I should not say that that takes place in every case. The cases are not analagous in my estimation. 1439. Would j^ou kindly explain what is the difference, because the process of examination is exactly the same in the two cases, and consent is given in both cases by the women ? — The cir- cumstances are entirely different, I think. 1440. Not the local circumstances ? — The sur- roundings certainly are different. 1441. In what way? — The object is entirely different. 1442. Do you mean the physical or the moral surroundings ? — The moral surroundings ; I am not speaking of the physical surroundings. The moral surroundings are entirely different. 1443. You have never heard any complaint, have you, that these examinations are not con- ducted with decency and privacy and decorum ? — Yes, I have heard such complaints as that. 1444. Were they investigated at the time ? — I do not recollect. I have heard complaints. 1445. But you have not any information beyond the mere fact of casual remark, perhaps? — Perhaps more than casual remark. I am not prepared with evidence of the number of cases, but I cannot say that I have no evidence at all. 1446. But I do not quite follow your statement that a woman, after examination, '' gives up all hope, all is lost, as to her character " ? — I do not give that as my statement ; I give that as the statement of two nurses. 1447. Then you do not agree with the nurses ? — I do not dissent from them ; I do not dispute it. 1448. Then, although it is not your own state- ment, you adopt it ? — Yes, I think it is quite true. 1449. But why should a woman, who has lost her character, be so very different as to character when she comes out of the examination room ? — Shall I give you the words of the nurse, be- cause I have them here and that is better than any testimony of mine : " When this examina- tion is once passed upon them all shame is taken from them, and they say nothing worse can be done to them, and give up all thoughts of good ■^hat were instilled in the innocent days of child- hood." This is a letter from one of the nurses of a Lock hospital. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1450. A Lock hospital certified under the Acts? —Yes. 1451. What Lock hospital was it? — This one, from whose letter I have read, I can give the name of. 0.75. Chairman. 1452. It appears that there are two nurses that you refer to ? — I have spoken of two. 1453. Is the nurse whose name you are pre- pared to give the nurse who wrote this letter ? ■ — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1454. Is the letter written to you ? — No ; it is written to a lady who handed it to me. Chairman. 1455. It is not a letter to you ? — No. 1456. Do you know the lady to whom it was addressed ? — Yes. 1457. Are you satisfied that it was a bona fide letter written to her? — Yes, I am. Dr. Farquharson. 1458. Was the letter written in reply to volun- tary statements made by prostitutes, or as the result of inquiries ?— I am not sure whether in- quiries led to this, or whether it was spon- taneously given to the lady. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1459. You have the letter before you? — I have. 1460. It is a letter written by a nurse, of what Lock hospital ? — It has lain by for a number of years, but I believe it is Aldershot. 1461. What is the date of it?— I cannot find a date at present. The name is Rose Wallis. 1462. Do you know the hospital to which she is attached ? — No ; I never was at Aldershot. 1463. But are you sure that it was the Aider- shot Lock Hospital? — Yes, I feel sure about that, speaking now without book. I shall know presently, I think. 1464. Will not the letter tell us?— I think it will, very likely. It is a long time since I read it. 1465. About how many years ? — I dare say it is about five or six years. 1466. Are you certain that this woman who writes this letter had not been discharged from the Lock Hospital at Aldershot ? — No ; I am not certain of that. Dr. Farquharson. 1467. Do you know if she had been long in the service of the Lock Hospital ? — I cannot tell you. 1468. Then do you not know what amount of experience she had ?■ — No, I cannot say. 1469. In your answer to Question 1202 you refer to a statement of opinion that vou receive from nurses in the Lock Hospital ; how many nurses were those ? — Two. 1470. Are you now prepared to give us the name of the second nurse ? — The name of the second nurse is E. S. Dowsett. 1471. Is she still acting as a nurse in a Lock hospital ? — No, I believe not. 1472. Did she retire voluntarily from that position 1 — Yes. 1473. Is she engagad in any similar work now ? — Not in the same kind of work exactly, but she is a nurse in a j)ublic institution, or was so not long ago. H 1474. In 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheeleu. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgmi. 1474. In what public institution ?- She is in the Throat Hospital. I do not know where it is exactly. Cliairman. 1475. Is it in London ? — Yes, I believe so. Dr. Fargiiharsoii. 147G. Kcferrinii- once more to the hardening tendency ot" tlicse examinations, wonld you not. hold that the occupation in which the woman is eno-ai^cd is really much more hardening than a simple examination?— It is very hardening in- deed; I scarcely know which is more so, as a whole. 1477. IJut surely the profession of prostitution is more hardening than the examination? — les. 1478. Then the actual hardening process of the examination, superadded to the effects of prosti- tution, cannot be so very great after all ?— I do uot admit that. 1479. At all events, you admit that the greater portion of the hardening, which of course in- creases as the woman remains longer in prostitu- tion, is caused by the nature of her profession or trade? — I have "no means of judging of the exact an;ount of the hardening influence, comparing one set of immoral influences with another. I cannot measure a thing of that sort ; they are both bad. 1480. Do you not think that women would naturally wish to place the responsibility of their degradation on anything rather than the real cause, which comes from their own fault ?— That is quite natural. 1481. They would wish to put it on something outside their own action ? — No doubt. 1482. And that, in some degree, of course de- tracts from the value of their evidence about the hardening process ?— It is to be taken into con- sideration, certainly. 1483. In fact, assuming for the sake of argu- nieni the hardening process, you would admit that these examinations have a deterrent eff'ect upon the women, deterring them Irom vice ?— Yes ; in some cases I think it may be so ; in other cases it may act strongly the other way, I think that is in the way of encouragement. 1484. These women have no reason for think- in"- that that after they have once come under the process of the examination they are so far fixed to their occupation that they have anv in- . creased diflRculty in escaping from prostitution ; would that have any effect in the hardening? — I think the difiiculty is increased. 1485. In fact, the facilities of escape are in- creased? — Xo ; it was that which I did not admit. 1486. Do you not admit that the facilities pro- vided by the Acts and the hospitals for women escaping from prostitution are considerable ; we have had a great deal of evidence to that effect ? — You mav have had evidence to that effect, but my opinion is that there is a much slighter chance of their getting out of their bad habits when they have been from fortnight to fortnight to exami- nation and passing through this process. 1487. But when they are admitted to the hospitals every woman gets an opportunity of escape if she likes, placed within her reach through the agency of the chaplain, and the matron, and very often the medical officer? — I do not know what may be the value of that. Dr. Farquharson — continued. 1488. But you agree that that may be so ? — I do not admit it. 1489. You do not admit it, because you have no actual knowledge on the subject? — 1 am not able to admit it. 1490. But you do not dispute that the women have a greater opportunity and facility of escap- ing from prostitution by admission to a hospital under the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I cannot tltink so. It is altogether dift'erent from a refuge such as I have spoken of. 1491. But the women will not go into a refuge voluntarily? — They do, sonietiraes. 1492. And very often they do not ? — Very often they do not. 1493. But they are compelled to go into a hospital, and when there they are jjlaced under very favourable conditions lor giving up their prostitution ? — May I explain, in a word or two, the great difterence that I see between being compelled to go into a place to get a blessing and going voluntarily. In the homes that I am de- lighted to feel an interest in, and take a part in, we have no riots ; we have no such cases as police cases against the women who arc sent for 21 days hard labour for rioting, of which I have 50 in number here. The disposition called into existence is so diflerent. If I may express it in a word, a patient goes into St. Bartholomew's ( Chat- ham) Ilospital, where 70,000 out-patients have passed through during the periods covered by the Acts; amongst those has been a certain proportion of venereal patients, male and female; and we have never iieard of such a thing as a policeman being called in to quell a riot in that place. But I have here 50 cases brought before the magistrates for insubordination, and refusing to submit to the regulations of the Government hos])ital. In one case it is a prison, with bars and bolts, and every- thing that is forbidding, is presented to the view of the patient ; in the other case any patient who de- sires to be relieved from this restraint would be reasoned with, and they would say to her, "Have you, since you have been in this place, met with anything that does not represent benevolence and desire for yoiu- good? " " No, nothing," "Then, will you take the doctor's advice and remain a little Ioniser? " You see what would be the dis- position engendered in the one case as comjiared with acquiescence in the other. 1494. But I think you are assuming that they are treated in the hospital with a want of beno- volence, and we have heard nothing of that before ? — I am contrasting now the compulsion that runs through the whole of the business in the one case with the presentation of benovolent motives and no others in the other case. 1495. But we have had no evidence that they are not treated in the lock hospitals with perfect kindness and sympathy ; have you anything to allege to the contrary ? — I know almost nothing of the interior of those hospitals. 1496. But you are, of course, aware that when a woman is discharged cured from the hospital she is legally free from further examination, if she does not return to prostitution? — I under- stand it so. 1497. Then she leaves the hospital as a free woman, at all events ? — I think so. 1498. With regard tn the women going to the examination, I think you said that there were occasionally 24 March 1882.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Mr. Wheelee. 59 [Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued, occasionally disturbances on the road ? — Dis- graceful scenes. 1499. Why is it that the police, who apparently have been so active in checking disorder in the streets, do not interfere to check these disgrace- ful scenes, which occur on the women going to the examination room ; is it out of their jurisdic- tion ? — Not at all ; they have interfered ; and if it had not been for that interference these dis- graceful scenes would have been more unbearable in Chatham. Owing to certain interferences, that nuisance has been diminished. Chairman. 1500. A nuisance of which you knew the ex- istence ? — Yes ; which I had witnessed in that particular thoroughfare. Dr. Farquharson. 1501. Then do I rightly understand that, at the present time, the nuisance has disappeared ? • — It has been abated ; when I say abated I mean diminished. 1502. But there is no necessary connection between the examination and these disgraceful scenes, beyond the fact of a certain number of women being collected together ? — They are on their way to this place for a certain purpose, and when they find themselves liberated they are very jolly, and sometimes very indecent in their language. I speak from my own observation. They are disgracefully indecent, and the lan- guage is filthy in the extreme. 1503. But not more indecent, perhaps, than the language that you would hear in the streets from the same women. In answer to Question 1148 you say, that Colonel Fellowes makes a very strong remark about the disgraceful scenes in the streets of Chatham ? — Yes ; it is both in the streets and near the examination room. 1504. Therefore, wherever you have prosti- tutes you have disgraceful language ; but it has no necessary connection with the examinations ? — Yes, the truth is, if I may say it, that we were terribly jjressed as to time on Tuesday, and nobody knows how great my embarrassment was on account of this pressure, or else I should have been glad to say, after describing these disgraceful scenes, that they were to be witnessed only on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, between the hours of twelve and two. I went on other days to see how things were then, and there was a perfect contrast ; all was quiet and orderly. 1505. I think you are of opinion that soldiers testify that these Acts present a temptation to sin ? — Yes, that is what many of them tell me, and I cannot believe anything else. 1506. Do you not think that the real tempta- tion to a soldier to sin is the fact that he is not allowed to marry, but is a forced celibate? — That is an awful calamity unquestionably, but that is not all. 1507. Do you think they calculate about the matter ? — Yes, I am sure they do, as far as I can judge. 1508. And do they select women especially on account of their being clean ? — Yes, I think so. 1509. How does that harmonise with your statement about the increase of clandestine pros- 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued. titutes, because if people go with those women because they are known to be clean, why is it tha,t there is such a large number of clandestine prosti- tutes about whom there is no sort of guarantee ? — The two things may exist. 1510. But do you not think that there is a con- tradiction in that; if a soldier or a civihan selects a woman on account of her being clean, why should there be such a large increase amongst the women who, for anything anyone knows, may be frightfully diseased, in other words, clandestine prostitutes?—! think the honourable Member has already given me the answer to that. He says that the examination is a deterrent,and there- fore I say women will practice prostitution clandes- tinely rather than go up to be examined. 1511. But if the Avomen were not used by men the supply would naturally fall off? — Unhappily they get a great deal of business. 1512. Then why should the men who, according to your statement, go with women because they think they are clean, go with women about whom there is no guarantee of cleanliness? — Notbino- can be clearer. Take a word from the Bible for that, " Bread eaten in secret is pleasant," "Stolen waters are sweet " for some distorted minds. I cannot explain all these things psychologically. 1513. There is nothing more secret in o-oino- with a clandestine prostitute than with a public woman. I cannot put the two points together of an increase of sin from using those women who are clean, and at the same time an increase in the number of women about whom there is no sort of guarantee as you have not with reo-ard to clandestine prostitutes ? — Soldiers and civihans do go with them, and they risk it ; and they suffer fearfully in consequence of it. 1514. Would you wish to shut up all brothels and prohibit prostitution ; would your idea go so far as that?— The advocates of the Acts often tell me that prostitution always was and always will be. I have a better hope for the future ; but I see these Acts encourage the vice, and I would cease to do this evil at once. 1515. At all events you would not think it possible, or desirable, to try and check prostitution by stamping out all brothels and prostitutes, would you ? — To try and stamp them out is one thing; and to visit them every day; paying 30,000 idsits for conducting and not for reprovino- in the course of a year is another; it is a sanction. 1516. But that is not an answer to my ques- tion; I only want to know whether, in your opinion, it would be desirable to try and stop prostitution? — I am sure that we all ought to try and stop it ; by every effort in my power I am trying to stop it ; that is to say, I am subscribing to and helping in my little way a number of such hospitals and refuges as I think are operatino- in that direction. 1517. Do you not think that it might have a very prejudicial influence on public morahty if prostitution was checked? — Itwouldbe a blessing; it could not be any other than a blessing if pros- titution was stopped. 1518. But do you think that by the mere checking of prostitution you jjrevent men, many of whom cannot marry, from desiring to iudulge H 2 their 60 MINUTES OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 24 March 1882.] Mr. "WUEELEK. [ Continud. Dr. Farquharsun — coutinued. their sexual passions ? — No, no iiuman arrange- ment will jirevcnt that. Nothing but Divine Grace will ilo that. 1519. Then, if you ilo not get prostitution, will yon not get to a large extent seduction and immorality of that sort whicli is of a more formidable cliaractcr :— "We get now quite suffi- cient of all three. 1520. But not so mucli? — I do not know. 1521. I was glad to sec that, in answer to Question 1232, you admitted the beneficial action of the Contagious Diseases Act; you say, " While I am ready to admit tiiat tliere may be many in- cidents such a8 we should rejoice in the adminis- tration of these Acts"? — Yes, there may be, 1522. What are the particular benefits which you, apparently, hail with satisfaction? — I cannot deny that women have been sent out of tlie Lock hospitals into homes. Some liave been scut into our home at Chatham Hill. I cannot deny that. But always when I admit that there has been a certain amount of good in that direction, I say that the amount of evil has been infinitely greater. I distintjuish between the normal working of it and these mere incidents. 1523. But you admit that there is a certain amount of benefit from the Acts, at all events ; •we will put the evil effects on one side? — Certain good has come out of them. Good comes out of evil very often through God's mercy. 1524. Just one word about the case of Caroline Wybrow, which I will not go into at lengtli. I ])resume that before tlie police entered Caroline ^Yybrow's room to tell her to go to be examined, they had observed her in the streets under suspicious circumstances? — Yes, they allege that in their letters. Ckairman. 1525. You mean in their reports? — In their reports, dated 16th June 1875. Dr. Furqitharson. 1526. Previously to having visited her in her room they had seen her outside under suspicious circumstances ? — 1 have no evidence that they ever did go into her room. 1527. The writ was served on her in her room, was it not? — If I understand it, the writ was served on her while she was scrubbing one of the rooms below. 1528. Just one word about Dr. Weld. Dr. Weld, according to the declaration of mother and daughter, accused the daughter of " having been with all the soldiers in the barracks, and of having the disease fearfully ;" does Dr. Weld himself acknowledge the accuracy of that state- ment ? — I do not recollect that he denies it ; but it is to be observed (and we shall notice that all through) that all that Dr. Weld tells us, he says, depends upon his recollection, and is written 12 months after the occurrence. 1529. And what do the mother and daughter go upon ? — They go upon recollection, but not upon a recollection of 12 months afcer, but very promptly afterwards. 1530. As a member of the medical profession I want to ask you whether the statutory de- claration of mother and daughter about Dr. Weld was denied by that gentleman ? — He Dr. Farquharson — continued. denies some of the details, I think, about tlie food. 1531. The accusation against him is, that without any examination. Dr. AV^eld apparently accused this girl of having a certain disease fear- fully and a discharge. Ajiparcntly, on the 1st of February, lie had made an examination? — His certificate bears an earlier date than that. 1532. Then he had examined her? — He says, "only inditferentlv," and the inspector states that he had, two days earlier (.Ian. 3U), certified her to be diseased on Form K. 1533. We have had a statement here that women have l)cen forcibly examined against their will ; you admit that this case siiows, that at all events, in the case of this girl, she was not examined until she gave her full consent ? — She gave a conditional consent under severe pressure. Virtually, " You will never get your liberty from this ]ilace unless you allow yourself to be examined." 1534. We had a distinct statement made in this room by Mr. Shaen, one of the witnesses here, that girls under these circumstances are forcibly examined and assaulted, as he called it, against their will, by medical men ; at all events, this case shows that the girl was not forcibly ex- amined ? — iNIr. Shaen was a lawyer, and meant a legal assault, no doubt. If I put my hand upon a gentleman's shoulder that is an assault. 1535. Y(Ui admit that, in this case, the girl was not examined until she gave her full consent to the examination ? — It was a conditional con- sent under severe pressure. 1536. But it was a consent ; the doctor did not examine this girl forcibly against her will, as has been alleged here in evidence? — She assented, conditionally, under severe pressure, and the condition was that no instrument should be used. 1537. And no instrument was used? — No in- strument was used ; it was a digital examination and no other. 1538. And all the conditions implied in her consent were fulfilled by the medical man who examined her ; — Yes, I do no call to mind any infringement of the conditions. The Chairman will observe that these things occurred a long time ago, and I must ask time to call up my recollections, and I am sure it will be granted. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1539. You were asked a good many questions upon Mr. Stigant's examination; let me refer you to Question 5614, where he is asked this lay my honourable and learned friend, the Member for Stockport, " Were you in favour of the Acts from their beginning." And his answer was, " I hardly know that I had any opinion about them at the beginning, but I may say that Mr. Wheeler called upon me, being a prominent man in Chatham, and being anxious to get my testimony as to the evil of the Acts." I presume that prominent gentleman is yourself? — No, I think he means himself; he is the "prominent man." I am not a prominent man; I am a very humble individual. 1540. But you are the Mr. Wheeler here re- ferred to? — Yes, clearly. If I might remark, there Mr. Stigant makes agreat mistake when he says that I appealed to him as a brother dissenter. I never SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 61 24 March 1882.] Mr. "Wheelek. \_Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgnn — continued. nevei- do such a thing as appeal to any one on such low grounds as that. 1541. May I ask when it was that you called upon Mr. Stigant ? — I do not think that it was at his house : I have an idea that it was when he and I rode in a cab together ; I offered him a ride, and then I put the question to him. 1 be- lieve that was the occasion. 1542. But when was it ? — It must be seven or eight years ago, perhaps. I speak, subject to my recollection being corrected. 1543. Then he is asked soon afterwards : "How soon after the Acts came into operation were you converted ?" And his answer is, " I should say that in about 1873 my attention was more par- ticularly directed to the Acts, and nothing did it more than Mi". Wheeler's endeavouring to engage my attention to the subject, in order to oppose the Acts ; I told him I could not conscientiously do so, because my observation led me to a different conclusion." I presume from that that it would be about the year 1873 that you applied to him? — Tes, then my idea as to the time was about correct. 1544. I suppose from that day to this you have made it your business to collect evidence in Chatham against the Acts; is not that so? — When things have come under my notice, fact and testimony, I have taken a note of such as I thought relevant. 1545. And may I say that you have thought it your duty, or made it your business, to collect that evidence from whatever source you could ? — I pre- fer the first phrase ; that I thought it my duty. 1546. As a matter of fact, you did it ? — Yes, clearly. 1547. I gather that you collected that evi- dence from soldiers, prostitutes, and other per- sons, promiscuously, whom you came across in Chatham, or did you address yourself to any particular source of information ? — Soldiers. 1548. Did you pick up your information wherever you could ? — I picked it up whenever it came in my way, and sometimes, it is true, from prostitutes. 1549. You picked up whatever information you could get. I suppose that the information which was picked up by you in that way is what you called just now testimony ; is not that so ? — • Yes, much of it is. 1550. May I ask you whether you have ever, like Mr. Stigant, filled any official post in Chatham ; have you been a member of the local board ? — No, I do not live within the boundary of Chatham, but in that part of Rochester which stretches towards Chatham. 1551. Rochester is an incorporated 'borough, is it not ? — Yes. 1552. Have you been a member of the town council, or lieid any official position there ? — No, no public office since I left Strood 20 years ago. 1553. Therefore, I presume (though I do not say it in any way to disparage what you say) that you have acted merely as what one may call a volunteer in this matter ? — Entirely so, under a sense of duty. 1554. You spoke a good deal about the in- fluence of these Lock hospitals; may I askwhether you have ever been inside a Lock hospital ? — Yes, I have been. 1555. At Chatham ?— Yes. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 1556. How many times ?— I think two or three times. 1557. Then, of course, you can speak of your own knowledge as to what you saw there ? — Yes, and it was very little that I saw. 1558. Did you see anything to lead you to think that putting these girls into a hospital hardened them or influenced them for evil ? — I do not recollect seeing anything that I could point to that I saw there. 1559. Did you, on the other hand, see anything to lead you to believe that the detention of the girls in hospital was attended by good effects , were you present at the ministrations of the chaplain ? — Yes, I attended on one of the occa- sions of worship. 1560. How were those ministrations conducted? — With great decorum. 1561. Did those unfortunate women seem im- pressed by the services, so far as you could observe ? — I could not judge of that at all. The visit was but a short one, and I did not stand in a position to see their features, for instance ; I could only look at them sideways. 1562. But may I asl: what was generally the impression left upon you by youi- visit to the hospital, as regards any religious influence brought to bear upon those girls ? — I could not feel any hope that good was being done in that way from anything that I saw ; but at the same time I am ready to acknowledge, what I said before, that very often good is brought out of an evil thing through God's mercy. 1563. How many times have you been to this Lock hospital?— Only twice, I think, and then the visits were extremely short. 1564. So that as to what takes place there, you are not prepared to speak from your own personal knowledge ? — Very little indeed, almost nothing. I might say that, having occasion to go with a Wesleyan minister, with a hope of seeing a Jewess who was in the place, the Wesleyan minister was admitted ; but I stood out in the cold all the time. But that I do not find fault with ; it is what I might expect. 1565. Were you refused admittance ? — I was refused admittance, but my friend was admitted. 1566. You admit that an improvement has taken place, do you not, in the general condition of the streets and the appearance at any rate of the women in Chatham ? — -Yes, I have admitted that. 1567. And you attribute that much more to moral and religious influences than to the operation of the Acts ? — Yes, clearly, and the local police. 1568. At the same time, I suppose you would admitthat what has been called the deterrent effect of the Acts in preventing the less hardened class of women from becoming prostitutes would exer- cise some good influence in the direction you have stated? — I could not assert that no good influ- ence has come out of it. 1569. Do you know London, or do you speak of Chatham only ? — I have come for the purpose of speaking of the Chatham district. 1570. You know London, I suppose, do you not ? — Not very much. 1571. Of course you are aware that a great variety of moral and religious influences have been at work on the women in London, and that much has been done to improve the morality and condition of the town ; have you seen H 3 In 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheel EK. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. in the last eight or ten years any iinjirovemcnt in the streets of London simihir to that which you liave seen at Chatliam? — I (liink so. JFor instance, a gentleman speaking in favour of the Acts, said : " As I used to walk from my home to my house of business I used to meet 30, and now I meet none." I replied that cannot be due to the Contagious Diseases Acts, because you have not the Acts in London. He was speaking of Finsbury Square, and from that part to his residence. He was a druggist. 1572. Do you mean to say that the condition of the streets of London has materially improved as regards the disappearance of j)rostitutes and their better behaviour in the last ten years? — In certain parts I think so ; but I am not prepared to speak positively about that. 1573. By " clandestine prostitutes" I suppose you mean unregistered prostitutes 1 — Yes. 1574. "What reason have you for saying that tliere has been an increase in clandestine prosti- tution ? — It is very large, and I think it is in- creasing ; but I do not know that I have asserted that. I cannot give statistics of that at all. 1575. "Would you admit, then, that there has been no increase in clandestine prostitution ? — I could not give an opinion upon that at all ; but I believe there is a large amount of clandestine prostitution. 1 am obliged to believe so from the testimony that I have from others. 1576. Is tiiat the testimony that you described just now as derived from conversations ? — Yes, the testimony that was not admissible on Tuesday from, I daresay, 15 soldiers. 1577. Do you not think that persons whose duty it is '• to hunt out" these women (an expres- sion that has been used before), as it is that of tiie metropolitan police, would be more likely to form a correct opinion as to the existence of clandestine prostitution than a volunteer like yourself? — Yes, I should think they know more about it than I do, being alwa3's at it. 1578. Therefore, they being always at it, I suppose if anyone was likely to be able to form a correct estimate as to the existence and number of clandestine prostitutes in a borough under the Acts, they would be the persons, would they not ? — There is this iioint, that the women's aim would be night and day, and every hour, to keep out of the way of these men. They would not care to keep out of ray way. 1579. But could they succeed ? — They would often fail, but that would be their aim. 1580. But Chatham is not a very large place ; and speaking, not of a woman who is kept as the mistress of one man, but of women who obtain their living by prostitution, would it not be almost impossible, in a town like Chatham, that they should escape for any length of time the operation of these metropolitan police ? — I should think, in most cases, it is not that they are getting their living as much as supplementing their ordi- nary wages by prostitution. That, I think, is the class. 1581. But those women, I suppose, must, for that purpose, in order to supplement their living, go about and they must see men, and they must be seen in the public streets ; what 1 fail alto- gether to follow is how, under those circum- stances, they could escape the vigilant observa- Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, tion of the metropolitan police, who, according to what some witnssses have stated, are rather over zealous in the discharge of their duties ; could you explain that ? — A great many of them do not escape, but others do ; and in other cases there is so much doubt that the inspector describes it as a fringe of doubtful cases. 1582. Do you give that answer of your own knowledge, or do you give it from surmise ? — From information from various persons. 1583. May I ask you whether you hate ever seen the register of prostitutes? — Never. 1584. And I suppose you have no access to it? — No, they would not let me sec it. 1585. Therefore, when you speak of a woman as being a prostitute, and yet not on the register, you cannot speak from really authentic know- ledge, can you ? — I should be very cautious indeed, for it would be very difficult ibr me to describe a prostitute in a way that would satisfy half the gentlemen here. 1586. You have nothing that I should call evidence ; when you speak of an unregistered prositute you have no means of really knowing whether she is registered or not ? — Only from testimony. I have already said in answer to the question, that they may be rei^istered without my knowing it. 1587. With regard to these juvenile prostitutes, I think you have stated that there arc a good many juvenile prostitutes in Chatham? — Yes, I believe so ; I think I spoke of a petition declaring that there are very many. 1588. You are asked at Question 1131, "Have you any reason to suppose that there is an in- crease in the number of juvenile prostitutes?" and your answer is, " I think there is." I should very much like to get at the data on which you found that answer ? — I think it would come out very much in the interview that I was permitted to have with the chaplain of the Lock Hospital shortly after last Good Friday. The letter was not admissible the other day, but I was permitted to speak of the interview that I had with the chaplain of the Lock Hospital, in consequence of something that appeared in the " Times." 1589. May I ask who that chaplain is? — His name is Boys. 1590. Is iMr. Bo3'snow a chaplain of the Lock Hospital ? — Yes, he still holds the office. 1591. We shall perhaps call ]Mr. Boys, so that I need not follow this up further ; but you say that you derive that opinion as to the increase in the number of juvenile prostitutes chiefly from a conversation which you had with Mr. Boys ; is that so ? — I could h;irdly say, chiefly, but from a conversation with a number of residents on the subject, after having read Mr. Boys' letter. 1592. If you cannot give me the names of the residents, I am afraid that what they said is not of very much value ? — I can give you the names ; I have them ; and they are residents in the low- est parts of Chatham, just the people who are likely to know. 1593. Are you speaking from your personal observation when you say that the juvenile prostitutes have increased in number, or are you speaking from conversations ? — From the testi- mony of the residents ; I might say that it is con- firmed by my own observation, so far as that is worth SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 63 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelek. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, worth anything, because I walk up and down the streets very much. 1594. Have you ever been brought into direct communication with any of the women who have been to these hospitals : have you seen them and talked to them after they have been to the hos- pitals? — Yes. 1595. "VVliat account do they give of their treatment there, and of the influences brought to bear upon them in the hospital? — The informa- tion that I have relates more to the examination than to the treatment afterwards. 1596. I want to ask one or two questions about those two nurses; you gave us the names of two ladies, one of whom had written a letter? — One wrote a letter. 1597. You were asked, at Question 1200, " Have you made inquiries of nurses attached to these hospitals? {A.) Yes, of nurses from two distinct hospitals ; but I should not like to be pressed for the names of those women ;" now you have given the names, might 1 ask you to repeat them ?— Mrs. Wallis and Mrs. Dowsett. 1598. One has stated her opinion by letter, has she not ? — Yes, and at present I have not found any date upon it. 1599. Whose letter was that?— Mrs. Wallis's. 1600. Do you know Mrs. Wallis ?— Only from meeting her occasionally ; perhaps twice, or I may have met her three times ; I am not quite sure about that. 1601. To whom was the letter addressed to which you refer, which you say has no date upon it ? — 1 think to a lady residing at Chatham ; at all events it was from that lady that I received it. 1602. The letter was put into your hands by that lady ?— Yes. 1603. You have a copy of the letter, have you not? — Yes, it is in the room. 1604. Then, having given me the name of Mrs. Wallis, could you give me any idea of her history ? — No, not at all. 1605. Can you tell me at Avhat hospital she acted as nurse ? — At Aldershot, I believe. 1606. You are not even certain of that? — No, hardly ; but I believe it was at Aldershot, always with the reserve that these things are five or six years old. 1607. Do you know when she was appointed nurse ? — No. 1608. Do you know the circumstances under which she left her situation ? — Not in the least. 1609. You do not know whether she was dis- charged for misconduct ? — No, not at all. 1610. Then I pass to the other lady, Mrs. Dowsett ; she did not write a letter, I think ? — No, she gave assent to certain statements. 1611. In what way did she give assent; did she give it verbally ? — Yes. 1612. To whom did she give verbal assent to those statements ? — To me. 1613. What was the date of this assent given to you? — The 15th of June 1878 is at the head of these remarks, and I think it applies to this as well: " Confirms Mrs. Wallis, page 129, as to demoralisation." 1614. Can you give us any history of Mrs. Dowsett ; was she at this time acting as a nurse at the Lock Hospital? — No, she had resigned. 1615. She had not been discharged, but she 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. resigned; that you know? — Distinctly, as she tells me. 1616. Where had she been acting as nurse? — At Chatham. 1617. Did you know her at Chatham? — No, I think I did not know her until after she had re- signed. 1618. Could you tell me how long she was acting as nurse at the Lock Hospital at Chatham ? — No, I could not say. 1619. You do not know when she was ap- pointed ? — No. 1620. And you do not know when she re- signed ? — Yes, I can tell you when she resigned ; she resigned on the 12th of September 1877. She gave notice, and left on the 12th of October 1877, or thereabouts. 1621. So that her statement to you was made eight months after she had ceased to be connected with the hospital ? — Yes. 1622. But you cannot give me any idea of the time during which she acted as nurse, or the amount of experience which she had ? — No, I do not think I have anything that throws light upon that. 1623. You spoke of petitions being presented from Chatham for the repeal of the Acts ; is it not the fact that public opinion there is very much divided upon that subject? — Yes. 1624. Do you know what the opinion of the Members for the two boroughs of Chatham and Eochester is upon the subject? — I think they are all against us. Perhaps in one case it is hardly right to say that, but I, think that in the other cases it is so. 1625. Would it not be fair to say that the leaning of public opinion on the whole was against you in the two places? — I could not deny that if you Avere to take numbers. 1626. Do you really think so ill of your fellow townsmen as to suppose that that prepossession of theirs in favour of the Acts is caused by a desire on their part to lighten the burden upon their own pockets ? — Far be it from me to accuse them of mercenary motives like that ; but I know that a man is often influenced unconsciously by that which is profitable and turns away from that which is costly. 1627. That is a bit of ethics; but you would hardly, I presume; go so far as to say of your fellow townsmen that their main reason for being in favour of keeping those Acts, was that the Acts help to save their pockets ? — I know they are very sensitive of everything that increases the rates, and I could give illustrations of that ; and they are influenced by that, perhaps, uncon- sciously sometimes ; and we all may be. 1628. Supposing a feeling in favour of the Acts to exist, would you say that it was mainly due to a desire to save their pockets ? — No, I would_ not like to say that. I think the main cause is ignorance, want of information. 1629. But surely these people on the spot, par- ticularly people connected with the local board and holding oflScial positions, would be as likely as anybody not to suffer from that ignorance of which you speak ; who would be likely to possess information if they do not ? — They are divided as well as the people outside. 1630. You say that the petitions for the repeal H 4 of 04 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 24 March 18S2.] Mr. WnEELEU. \_Continucd. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, of the Acts have been signed by 11 clcrreparcd to say that there is nothing else. 1701. "Would you say what else there is? — I cannot say, but I think it mainly rests upon the statutory declaration. 1702. You have not communicated with the nurses or any of the hospital people who were present, have you ? — No, only the two doctors. 1703. I think it is stated, or at least it is im- plied in your evidence, is it not, that Miss Webb gave five shillings to this girl?— I said that she gave it to the mother for the girl. 1704. As I'.ush money? — No, T do not state that ; I know that they thought it was hush money, they looked upon it in that way, but I do not designate it as such. 1705. Are you aware that there is a fund placed at Miss Webb's disposal by private chari- table persons, by means of wliich she has for many years been able to assist numbers of young women to get into service ? — I do not know it of my own knowledge, but I think it is verj' likely; I think that as ajudicious woman, she would only give it to those that she thought specially de- served it. 1706. Did Mrs. Wybrow admit to you that she went to Miss Webb after those occurrences ? — Yes. 1707. For what purpose did she go? — As I understand her, I think it was to ask for that which she thought was available in certain cases, namely, a supply of clothing, or money in place of clothing ; and I think that is the object of the fund that has been spoken of to encourage ser- vants to remain in their places. 1708. She went to Miss Webb to ask for pecuniary assistance? — Yes, she had heard that there was such a fund available, and she went to talk about it. 1709. At this time did she tell you that she had made any complaints of her daughter's having been improperly detained in hospital, or having been ill treated? — I know of nothing that passed between the woman and Miss Webb then- 1710. She did not tell you that she had made any complaint to Miss Webb of the improper treatment of her daughter, or of her improper detention ? — Not to Miss Webb. Her comjjlaint was made, I should think, to the doctors. She made her comjilaint ; that is in the declaration. 1711. Did she make any complaint to Miss Webb ? — Not that I am aware of. 1712. Do you know when she went to Miss Webb to ask for pecuniary assistance ? — No, but it was after her liberation. 1713. Do you know how long after? — I can- not SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 67 24 March 1882.] Mr. "Wheeler. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, not say ; very shortly after, I think, because she went to work. 1714. She did not state to you that she made to Miss Webb any complaint of her daughter's improper treatmeat or improper detention? — I have not heard of it before, I believe ; or if I have heard of it before, I have forgotten it. 1715. I undei stand that Mrs. TVybrow went to Miss Webb after her daughter had been dis- charged fi-om the hospital, asked her for pecu- niary assistance, and did not make any complaint as to the treatment or detention of her daughter, as far as you know ; is that so ? — So far as I know, she made no complaint. It was not an application for pecuniary assistance ; it was to inquire about some clothing that she thought was available for girls when they undertake a situa- tion in a family, as she tells me. 1716. Will you kindly tell me what Mrs. Wybrow, whom you saw, I think, several times after these occurrences, told you had passed be- tween her and Miss Webb upon the occasion to which j^ou refer ? — She stated to me that she applied to Miss Webb to know whether she could have the clothing of which she had heard mention, seeing that her daughter was about to undertake a place in a family; and that Miss Webb, instead of giving her clothing, gave her two half-crowns. That is as far as I go. I can tell you no more about it. 1717. Did she state to you at that time that she had made any complaint to Miss Webb of the improper treatment of her daughter? — No, she did not ; or if she did, it is entirely gone from me. I do not believe she did. 1718. I think you said that that interview be- tween Miss Webb and Mrs. Wybrow, to which Mrs. Wybrow spoke, took place very soon after the discharge of her daughter from the hospital ? — I think it was, without giving dates. 1719. That would probably be, would it not, because Miss Webb was doing her best to get the girl into a situation ? — I do not think Miss Webb did anything ; she gave her advice where to go, or something like that. 1720. Therefore, there was between that inter- view between Miss Webb and the girl's mother and the making of the statutory declaration an interval of at least eight months ; is not that so ? — It may be so, somewhere thereabouts. 1721. Were any complaints made by Mrs. Wybrow, to your knowledge, to the police or to the magistrates, or to any other person than yourself, of the treatment of the daughter ? — I do not know of any except my own. 1722. Therefore, as far as you know, the first complaint made by these people, the girl and her mother, was made to you, and was made in May 1875 ? — In answer to my inquiries and previously to my informants, of course. 1723. But what put you upon the inquiries ? — Because I heard that a girl had been detained in the hospital improperly by mistake, and that led me to make an inquiry on the spot. 1724. How did you get to hear this ? — I heard it through a neighbour, a person living in that neighbourhood. 1725. That put you upon inquiry? — Yes. 0.75. Mr, Osborne Morgan — continued. 1726. Then you communicated with the girl and her mother ? — Yes. 1727. And then, some six or seven months afterwards, this statutory declaration was made, and then again, about two months after that, the complaint was made to the Home Office ; was not that so ? — Everything was done very delibe- rately, that is manifest. I should have been very much to blame if I had acted hastily in a case of that kind, involving the proceedings of two medical men. I ought to be very careful. I saw them both first. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 1728. With regard to these Acts, I should like to know whether you are aware that consi- derations of humanity actuated many of those Members (of whom I was one) who supported these Acts on the first occasion, when they were introduced ? — Far be it from me to judge of your benevolent motives. 1729. You will not perhaps be surprised to hear that we, who were actuated by these consi- derations of humanity, have not been disappointed in the results ? — If you say so, I accept it as your view. You say what you believe. 1730. With regard to the influences which have been brought to bear upon these people, I understood you to admit to my honourable friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire, that much good had been done? — I admit that good in many cases comes out of evil. 1731. That is not an answer to my question? — I do not think I said " much good," but good has been done. 1732. I understood you to admit that in many respects the Acts have produced good results; did you say that or did you not ? — I do not think I said " in many respects ; " I think I said in several incidental cases. 1733. Did you say that the Acts had done good ? — Good has come out of them ; I do not think I said that they had done good. 1734. Do you say that the Acts have done good, or do you not? — They may have done good. 1735. Have they done good, or have they not? — It is a very large question indeed. If I answer conscientiously and straight, I say that I believe they have done more harm than good. That is not an answer, perhaps, but that is my answer. I do not want to be entrapped into any admission. I believe they have done more harm than good. That is an admission, as I understand it, that they may have done some good. Good may have been done without my being aware of it, some good that I have never learnt ; and therefore I ought to give a cautious answer. 1736. In the first place, under these Acts have not influences which did not exist before, and which otherwise would not have existed, been brought to bear upon young girls ? — Yes, no doubt about it. 1737. Are you aware that it is the practice of the metropolitan police employed in this duty to warn young girls whom they see entering on a course of prostitution ? — I feel sure that they do sometimes, if they are men. 1738. They warn the girls? — Yes. I 2 1739. Are 68 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCIC TAKEN BEFORE THE 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelek. [^Continued. Mr. Cacciullsh Bentiiich — continued. IT.')!). Are voii aware that, it i.-s their practice, under instructions tVoni head quarters, to warn tlie girl's jiarents immediately upon finding a young girl entering on a course of jirostitution ? — I do not know that. 1740. Supposing that to be the practice, do you not consider tiiat likely to do a great deal of ijood}' — Yes; any one of us may do the same thing without an Act of Parliament. 1741. Are you aware that in certain subjected districts the local police have not instructions to do this?— I do not what their instructions are at all. 1742. Assuming that the Contagious Diseases Acts' police, as a practice, under instructions from their superiors, ivarn the parents and the ministers of the religious denominations to which the young girls belong, do you not tliink that that is a practice whichis likely to lead to gre.at good ? — It is a very good practice indeed for any one to adopt, whether he is a policeman or not. 1743. Is it within your knowledge that the Contagious Diseases Acts" policemen act in this way ? — I do not recollect a case having come to my knowledge ; I might recollect a ease but I do not at present. 1744. As regards treatment in hospitals, I do not recollect at this moment whether you told my right honourable friend whether you had ever been in a Lock hospital? — Twice. 1745. How long ago was the last time ?— Seven or eight years, perhaps, S])eaking without books, but I can refer to dales, if necessary. 1746. Practically you have no extensive know- ledge of the work that is carried on in lock hospitals ? — No, not an extensive knowledge, unless it be by heresay or by reading. 1747. You have of late years no practical knowledge of the system that is carried on with regards to these women in the lock hospitals ? — Not from my own observation ; I have not been inside one lately. 1748. With regard to the alleged indecent behaviour in the streets on the part of the women wlien they go to the examination, I understood you to say that you had on two occasions per- sonally been present ? — I have been present on occasions when they have been going to and from the examination room. 1749. Some of them, ycu told the Committee, conduct themselves with great decency? — I did not use the word "great." 1750. Were all the 40 that you saw go in- decent in their lieliaviour? — No. 1751. What pro])ortion of then> should you say •were indecent? — It is very difficult to speak to the number. 1 752. Not many of them, perhaps ? — No, there were not so very many that were indecent. 1753. Only a few? — Certainly the smaller proportion. 1754. They knew you by sight, I suppose? — I am not sure ; I cannot tell ; they might. 1755. Some of them must have known you on account of the very unfitting and improper re- marks that they made concerning you ? — It looks like it. They must have been told something, I think. Mr. Ctivendii/i Bentinch — continued. 1756. Do you not think that your presence on that occiision might, jierhaps, have aggravated their conduct ? — It might have led to those re- marks certainly, but not to the other things of which I complain. 1757. And if you had not been there there would jirobably have been less ui)roarous con- duct ? — That remark would not have been made. My presence did not lead to other things, though. 1758. I understand that this particular act of indecency which you allege against one of these women was that of rolling or failing on the ground with a carter; why tlid you not have the carter and this woman charged with an indecent act ; there was a remedy in your own hands ? — I did not think it was my duty to do that. 1759. They might have been punished for that ; why did you not take steps to have them punished ? — I had no idea that it was my busi- ness to do that. I came intending to make my observations and to go quietly home. 1760. And you did not inform the local police that any of these scenes wei-e taking place? — No. 1761. You took no steps whatever to put the local authorities in possession of the facts as to these alleged acts of indecency ? — No ; I went for information, nothing else. 1762. Going back for a moment to the con- dition of the prostitutes, I think you told the Committee that they are much better ofl:' at the present day than they were ? — They are better dressed. 1763. And better off, I think you said? — Very likely so. They have more money in their pockets, I think ; they earn more. 1764. And, therefore, their condition in that way, you say, is improved, and their condition of health has been improved also ? — I cannot speak to that ; I know that cleanliness leads to good health. 1765. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that before these Acts were passed a number of these women were suffering terribly from disease? — I should expect so. 1766. Do you not know that they were almost dropping to pieces with disease ? — No ; I do not dispute it. 1767. You do not dispute that as regards health the condition of the women is much ameliorated since the passing of the Acts ? — In the case of some of them, unquestionably, I think. 1768. You told my honourable friend, did you not, that you considered that prostitution was an evil that could not be got rid of? — It is not to be got rid of by tliese laws, if that is what is meant. 1769. I certainly understood you to say that prostitution had existed in all times ? — No, I was quoting the opinion of persons with whom I con- verse. I am continually met with that : " Pros- titution always was and always will be." I do not believe it. 1770. Is it not your opinion that the conditions of health of prostitutes have been greatly im- proved since the passing of these Acts? — It is possible in the case of those who are licensed and registered. 1771. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 69 24 3I„rch 1882.] Mr. Wheelee. [ Continued. Mr Cavendish Bentinck — continued. 1-771. You have told us that one of your ob- jections to this system is the co-operation of the police ? — -Yes, that is my main objection. 1772. Tlie Hight Iionourable Gentleman put this question to you at No. 1232 wlien you were last examined : " I understand that, in your opinion, this kind of open relationship and co- operation between the brothel keepers and the police has a very bad moral influence." I do not quite understand what is meant by an " open relationship and co-operation between the brothel keepers and the police ; " will you explain what that means ? — Their constant visitation to these houses, not in the sense of reproof but in the way of conducting the business. 1773. How do you know that there is no re- proof? — I learn it from Captain Harris's Kejiort for 1878, and from the statement also of this brothel keeper with whom I conversed. 1774. But how do you know that he is a brothel keeper, because I am informed that he is not a brothel keeper ? — Not John and Fanny Ware I If he is not I have something to learn. When I called upon him I thought I ought to say some- thing to introduce myself, and I said : "' There was a girl a few days ago who, on her way from your place to the examination, sunk on the road and was removed to the union house and died in four hours " (her name was Oswell ; I forget the first name). He said : " Yes, she died from drink." Then I think I said, " And from other Tice ?" And the brother keeper or his wife said, " Yes." I cannot distinguish between the two, because they both joined in the conversation. So that I knew from that that it was a brothel, and that this was only one of his women. 1775. But how do you know that this woman had not been lodging there ? — She had been lodging there. 1776. A woman who engages in prostitution to a certain extent more or less may lodge in a house ; but that is no reason why the house in which she lodges should be called a brothel ? — I know, so far as one can know anything of this kind, that it is by repute a brothel, and that this was one of the women on her way to the exami- nation, and that the man and the woman both say that the visits of the Contagious Diseases Acts' detectives to that house are sometimes made three times a week and sometimes three times a day, just as they may find it necessary to look after the women. Cliairman. 1777. When you speak of the detectives, do you mean the Contagious Diseases Acts' detec- tives ? — Yes. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 1778. How do you know that the Contagious Diseases Acts police visit that house ? — The man and his wife tell me so : and more than that, they go up Into the bedrooms without a warrant. 1779. That rests upon his statement ? — Yes, his and his wife's. 1 hat makes it out a brothel, I think, clearly. 1780. Do you know why the police visit these houses ? — Yes. 1781. It is to try and find any women who 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, are not upon the register, is it not ? — Captain Harris says that it is for the purpose of warning women to attend to examination, and for con- ducting the women to examination, if they have been declared diseased by the visiting surgeon, and for that alone. 1782. Are you aware that it is also for the purpose of warning young persons who are en- tering upon a career of prostitution ? — That does not appear upon Captain Harris's statement. Pie declares what the sole object of the visit is. 1783. With regard to the case of Caroline Wy brow, about which my Eight honourable friend asked you, you are responsible for this paper, I understand ; your name is signed to it ? — Yes; if I did not write it all, I will be responsible for it until I am further Instructed. 1784. In the third paragraph there occurs this statement : " Hundreds of terrified girls have signed this crafty form under the threat and terror of imprisonment " ; what Is your authority for that statement ? — I cannot say other than that I believe it. 1785. You have no authority for it ? — I could not refer to a hundred cases. 1786. Can you refer to one ? — Yes. 1787. Are you a member of the Society for the Kepeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — Yes, I belong to the National Association. 1788. Are you a subscriber to it? — Yes. 1789. Are you aware that there has lately been an active distribution of these leaflets ? — Yes. 1790. Especially in Canterbury ? — Most likely. 1791. Are you aware that these leaflets and other similar ones, containing details, which I will not characterise as regards decency, have been delivered openly at the houses of respect- able people ? — No, 1 am not aware of that ; you are speaking of Canterbury; I live at Chatham. 1792. Would you approve of such a practice as that of giving away these papers open, to fall into the hands of young girls ? — I am careful to avoid that result. Chairman. 1793. Do you approve of it, or do you not? — I do not approve of their being given to young girls, and I am careful to avoid it. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 1794. Now let us go back to these " hundreds of terrified girls who have signed this crafty form under the threat and terror of imprisonment ;" can you tell nie the name of any one terrified girl who has signed this form under the threat and terror of imprisonment ? — No ; I cannot name any cases at present except this one that we have before us. 1795. Then, putting it in the very mildest phraseology, that statement is wholly incorrect ? — No ; I do not say that. 1796. You sign this " Frederic Wheeler;" the title is " Authenticated and shocking illustra- tion ;" and one of the most important paragraphs is this : " Hundreds of terrified girls have signed this crafty form under the threat and terror of I 3 imprisonment ;" 70 MINUIES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TUE 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelek. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch — continued, imprisonment ;" and when I ask you to substan- tiate it by one single case, and not by hundreds, you sav you cannot ; and yet you will not admit that the statement is incorrect ? — The one tfiat is before us is the only one that is substantiated by name ; but I think I have read of very many, and I have no doubt that I could call many to mind. 1797. If you refer to this " Authenticated and shocking illustration," the inference is, is it not, that there was nothing at all the matter with this girl, and that the girl was entirely free from any sort of venereal disease whatever on her first attending the hospital ? — I think so. 1708. Are you aware that Mr. "William Weld, surgeon major and chief medical officer, on the I2th of February, writes as follows : " When examined by me," (that is referring to the girl) " on the 1st of February (only indifi'erently), I found she was suffering from a copious thick dis- charge which to all appearance had the character of a gDnorrhojal one " .' — Yes ; I have that letter here. 1799. Do you believe that statement to be true ? -I am obliged to receive it as he presents it. He says he writes that relying entirely upou his own recollections after the lapse of 12 months, with no books or notes to refer to. He does not say that there is no book or note to refer to, but it appeiirs tliat there arc none, and he says that he relies entirely upon liis own recollection, after the lapse of 12 months. 1800. Then you do not believe that what the doctor says is true ? — I receive it with great caution under those circumstances. He makes me cautious from the way in which he puts it. You would not receive my statement in that way. 1801. I only ask you whether you believe him or disbelieve him .' — Does that question involve the whole of the letter, or that particular point ? 1802. Do you believe or disbelieve the state- ment of jNIr. Weld, that she was suffering from a copious thick discharge which from its appear- ance had the character of a gonorrhoeal one? — I would not dispute that. He says, " Which to all appearance had the character of a gonorrhccal one." 1803. If you will kindly turn to page 2 of the leaflet, these are the alleged events of Friday, 5th February : " The scene that followed was such as cannot be printed. Their mistake is discovered ; she is no prostitute, but a virgin." What is your authority for th;)t statement? — I do not think that is in this edition, but I have no objection to be responsible for that statement. 1804. If that is withdrawn that is all I want? — I do not withdraw it ; I say I am responsible for it. " The scene that followed cannot be suitably printed." I believe that is overleaf. 1805. Are you aware that that statement is absolutely denied by both those medical gentle- men ? — No. 1806. Supposing that Dr. Jardine and Mr. "Weld, both of them, state positively that this girl was not a virgin, would you receive their state- ment as correct ? — I shoidd like to hear them state the grounds on which they make the asser- tion. 1807. Will you be good enough to tell the Mr. Cavevdisk Bentinck — continued. Committee what are the exact grounds, so far as you know, upon which that statement is founded? — In the first place the girl's statutory declara- tion, in which she solemnly avers twice that she has never known a soldier or any other man, in one phraseology or another. Chairman. 1808. Are there any other grounds for your statement ? — Yes. 1809. What are they ? — Another ground is that I learnt from professional medical men that a digital examination would give pain in the case of a virgin, if I may say that without being required to mention the names of them. The woman saya that lie did give her pain, Dr. Jardine's statement to the contrary notwithstanding ; and I think the woman was the best judge. Again, I find that in nine months and afcw days after her marriHge, she becomes a mother. Those are the grounds upou which I think 1 am justified in saying that she was a virgin. I think, further, that it is not denied, either in the letter of Dr. Jardine or Mr. AVeld. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 1810. This case of Caroline Wybrow took place as long ago as 1875, did it not; have you known of any cases of the same kind since? — No. 1811. Have you known any cases of injustice to women in that w'ay since ? — I am not here to state any cases. I have heai-d of cases, but I have never investigated them. This one I did investigate, and it was a deal of trouble. 1812. Have you ever heard of cases of the molestation of respectable women by the Con- tagious Diseases Acts' police ? — I cannot name any at present from memory, and I have no wish to do so. 1813. You have not known any cases of mis- conduct on the part of the police, either towards prostitutes or towards respectable women, in the last few years ? — I could not answer point-blank " No " to that, though at present I am not ready to give any cases. 1814. Cannot you try and recall some of those cases ? — No, I cannot indeed, for six years, and I will not attempt it. I should very likely say something imprudcntlj\ 1815. I will ask you now a question which you need not answer, unless you please. On the part of a great number of very religious persons there is a strong objection to these Acts on the ground that venereal disease is what is called a " God- made punishment for vice," and that they are an attempt on the part of man to abrogate a penalty that it has pleased God to jmt upon vice ; do you hold that doctrine or not? — No, I do not .hold that. I am doing all I can to alleviate the sufferings of mankind in this way apart from Contagious Diseases Acts. Mr. Hopwood. 1316. You were asked about Mr. Stigant referring to your having applied to him as a brother dissenter ; did you ever apply to him in that sense ? — Never ; I never speak to anybody in that sense. 1817. As I understand you met him or you travelled with him somewhere, and you took his opinion SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 71 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelek. \_Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued, opinion upon these Acts ? — Yes, I was going the same way as he was, in a cab, and I asked him to get up and ride with me. 1818. And you found that he differed from you, or was beginning to differ from you, at that time ? — I think he gave a hesitating answer. 1819. In applying yourself to the study of this matter, and to the observance of the effect of these laws, have you had any other motive or object than that of performing the duty of a good citizen r — No ; and as being bound to support every good law, and being bound to secure the repeal of every bad one ; that is my idea. 1820. And you have applied yourself through- out with that object ? — Yes. 1821. Have you been careful and slow in de- liberation in the reception of facts, and tracing them as facts ? — Very cautious. 1822. Have you given many hours, and may I say days or weeks, to this question ? — Yes, no doubt. 1823. And you have made it your business not to shrink from unpleasant contact with bad characters, such as prostitutes, and so on, in your desire to obtain the real facts that might guide your judgment? — Yes ; it was needful, some- times. 1824. You were asked whether you were a member of a local board or town council ; do you know any facilities for observing these things that a member of a local board or town council would have which are superior to those which you have had ? — No ; T think we bave pretty much all alike the same access to facts. 1825. But you, as I understand it, have had more leisure, for you have not been in business, either public or otherwise ? — Yes ; I have taken great pains, perhaps as much as anyone, to under- stand it. 1826. You were asked (I do not know whether any offence was meant by it or not) whether you are a mere volunteer ; are you a mere volunteer in the sense that any other citizen is who seeks to labour publicly for the good of his country ? — That is my position, I believe, strictly. 1827. You have been inside a Lock hospital two or three times ; have you offered to go more than those two or three times ? — Yes ; once I went and was shut out. It was to see a Jewess, with a Wesleyan minister. 1828. But you were refused admission? — Yes. 1829. And after that, probably you have never applied again ? — No, I think not. 1830. You were asked about the ministrations of the chaj)lains doing good and the singing and the praying ; did it strike you that there were other matters connected with the hospital that might produce an opposite effect ; take the ques- tion of curing them for their profession or trade ? — Clearly ; that was always before me. 1831. Was that something which to your mind more than nullified the impression made by the good' influences? — Yes, clearly. The result is bad. 1832. When you were asked whether these Acts had produced any good, do I rightly under- stand you that as regards the occasional minis- trations of the chaplain, or the occasional influ- 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued, ences in the hospital, they may do good, but that on the whole the effect is bad .' — Yes, bad in every way as a whole. 1833. Is that the sense in which you answer that the Acts have done more harm than good ? — Yes, that is what I mean. 1834. In saying that the Acts do more harm than good, are you speaking of the effects only on the prostitute class, or upon society at large ? — Upon society generally. 1835. I understand you to repudiate the idea that you have ever had any notion that because this was a disease which followed ujDon gross indulgence, therefore it was not to be cured by the best human means ? — 1 am constantly doing all I can in my little way, subscribing to hos- pitals where such disease is treated ; sucb as Bartholomew's Hospital, and a number of others. 1836. As to the reduction of disease either at Rochester or Chatham, if that be so it is attribu- table to the employment of State surgeons at the State expense, and would not the same effect be produced by hospitals supplied by private agency ? — I think the same result is obtained, and a better result in fact. 1837. You were asked about unregistered prostitutes, and how you know them to be un- registered prostitutes ; do I correctly understand you to say that you have no official means of in- formation, but that you use the same intelligence that any other resident in a town does ? — Yes. 1838. And you notice that there is a large class which, in your judgment, ekes out its living, supplementing it b}^ prostitution? — Yes, I am obliged to believe that from what I hear more than from what I observe. 1839. You were asked about public opinion in regard to these Acts at Chatham ; have there been petitions sent up from Chatham to the House annually, or nearly annually ? — Yes, for a number of years past ; I think every Session of Parliament. 1840. Largely signed ? — Largely signed. 1841. And the one with which you are now proceeding is not yet complete? — No. 1842. But have a considerable proportion of the signatures to that been affixed at your request, and in your presence ? — Yes, the first 90. 1843. Are others jjroceeding to increase the number of signatures to the petition in other directions ? — I have a roll alreadj' in, and others are calling upon jjersons. 1844. Then, to assume that four magistrates, and three town councillors, were all that were going to sign, would be a very unfair assumption ? — Yes, I expect others ; I intend to call upon a number. 1845. Even as to the proportion of the clergy that have already signed, it would be a very unfair assumption that those are all whose signatures you hope to obtain ? — I iiope to get a great many more, and I have left a blank on jjurpose. 1846. As to officers discouraging temperance, it seemes to shock someone who asked you ; but was it the fact that formerly many officers of the army did discourage temperance societies ? — I believe so, from what I have read ; certainly. 1847. And you find that stated (and you were giving us some references) bv some society ? — 1 4 ' Yes. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheeler. [ Continued. Jlr. Jfopwood— continued. Yes. The papers that I was about reading state tlic fact. 1848. Ecturning to the case of Caroline "Wybrow.did you see the mother and daughter a number ol' times? — Several times. 1849. And did you inquire about them from neighbours ? — Yes. 1850. And did you arrive at a judgment as to the trutlifulncss of the two women in relation to these statements? — Yes. 1851. Were you firmly convinced of tlie truth- fulness of the two women ? — Yes. I cannot re- collect anytliing that ought to induce me to think them false. 1852. As a matter of fact the mother did get at some time two half-crowns from Miss Webb ? — Yes. If there is anytliing at all that impugns truthfulness on the part of the girl it occurred at a later period than this. 1 853. You were asked why, because you learnt as to the two Wares, that a jirostitute lived there; you called it a brothel ; do you observe that tiie reason given by the police for saying that Caroline Wybrow was in a brothel was that there was a prostitute resident there ? — Yes, it is a very lingular statement. I know that the policeman says that he found her in a brothel ; but it admits of a vei-y different aspect when it is explained. 1854. When you are asked about the good condition of the prostitutes I think your answer is that they have more money in their pockets ; may I ask whether the trade is ajiparently more flourishing and more profitable ? — Yes, I think 60. 1855. With regard to hundreds of tei-rified girls having signed this form, are you aware that, in the first place, and for a considerable time, the orders of the police were, by autliority, to tell girls that they must sign, under penalty of going to n-aol, and that that order was witlulrawn by the Admiralty. I quite understand that from what I read. 185G. Does that convey to your mind the pro- bability tliat hundreds of girls might be terrified, and were terrified, into signing the submission? — Yes : and it is also confirmed by the statement that comes from Scotland Yard of a very large number of girls that have been examined without any application to the magistrates ; and, there- fore, 1 conclude that some otiier influence must have been used, and I think that is the influence, the threat. 1857. You find it difficult to believe that girls would give up their liberty unless they were coerced by some such pressure ? — I think so. 1858. And, finding that so many submit, you draw the inference that a good many are terrified into it .' — Yes, I think it is done under pressure. 1859. With regard to the girl Wybrow, 1 see that the statement by Mr. Weld is not that she was diseased, but that she had a discharge, to all appearance of the character of a gonorrhosal one ; 1 believe you saw both those gentlemen after- wards? — Yes. 1860. Did either of them deny that this girl was a virgin. Just take Mr. Weld first : what did he say ? — 1 had better refer to my notes of that. About the 25th of October 1875, in front Mr. Hopioood — continued, of his residence. Clarendon Villa, I spoke to him of the Wybrow ease, and he replied, " A man may make a mistake once in his life.'' 1861. AVliat did you say to him in regard to the Wybrow case ?— I complained that this girl had been examined wrongfully, and made a prisoner. 1862. Did you say anything about her turning out to be an honest girl or a virtuous girl ? — I do not recollect all the conversation that took j)lace. The only note that I have made that was relevant to the point was that, I think. 1863. That a man may make a mistake some- times? — Yes, once in his life; an(l he turned round on his heel, and left rather promptly, I think. 1864. He was not inclined to discuss the matter at all ? — I judge so. 1865. Did you see the other gentleman. Dr. Jardine, about it ? — Yes. 1866. Do you remember what reference you made to tliis case wiicn you saw iiim ? — Yes, I introduced the case ver3- mucli in tlie same way. I complained that this girl had been imprisoned and treated as a prostitute, when I believed that she was not so. The conversation was not con- fined entirely to that point. 1867. You have a memorandum there, as you have in Mr. AVeld's case ? — Yes ; when I stated the case, he said, " I recollect the case ; I pro- mised her that I would not use tlie instrument. Dr. AVeld felt undecided about the disease, and they determined (tliat is, lie and Dr. Weld to- gether) to see her together; they did so. She had a discharge but no disease. Miss Webb pitied her, and gave her money, or something. The gii'l exaggerates. I always have the as- surance of the police that they have explained the voluntary submission. They are, as Mr. Childers says, extremely prudent and careful; but in this case the blame rests witli the police," The rest is irrelevant. 1868. What is the date of that ?— That is the 23rd of December 1875. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1869. That was before the complaint was made to the Home Office ? — I should think it was cer- tain to be. I should not make a complaint to the Home Oflice without seeing these gentlemen first. Mr. Hopwood. 1870. As to the girl exaggerating, what was Dr. Jardine referring to ; had j'ou told him what the girl said ? — I cannot tell now what it refers to. 1871. Do you think that she had or had not at that time made her declaration? — Yes, she had made her declaration then. 1872 Did you take any pains, or did anybody, to your knowledge, take any pains to place the declaration before Dr. Jardine or Mr. Weld? — I do not think that I showed him the declaration, but I endeavoured to explain the leading points of it, both to him and to the other doctor. It was a courtesy that was due to them. 1873. Was it part of her assertion and her mother's assertion that she was a virgin at that time? SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 73 24 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelee. [ Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued, time? — Yes, clearly, in the declaration. It was the mother's assertion so far as she could assert it. 1874. To your mind does this promise not to use an instrument confirm that ; that the doctor was informed that she was a virgin, and that he avoided using the instrument ? — No, not on that ground, I think. 1875. But the declaration was sent to the Home Office, and I dare say we may assume that it was submitted to both of the doctors ? — Yes, because they both replied. Mr. i7oj9woofZ— continued. 1876. What T wanted to know was whether you could help me to the date, or the time, or the fact of whether your interview with the doctors was after the declaration had gone to the Home Office or not ? — That is easily seen by the papers. 1877. As far as we can see here, it was not until the January following, about a month after the interview with the doctors ? — That is quite likely. 0.75. K 74 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tnesdat/, 28th March 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Cavendish Bcutiuck. General Burnaby. Mr. Burt. Dr. Cameron. Colonel Uigb)'. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. ]Mr. Ilopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. IMr. O'Sliausjhnessy. Mr. Stansfcld. Jlr. Hanbury-Tracy. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr. Frederic AVnEELER, re-called ; and further Examined. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1878. Do you think tliat by altering the lioui-s and possibly the place of these examina- tions, the scenes to which you have very properly called attention miglit be prevented? — Not pre- vented altogether, but certainly a certain amount of scandal might be removed. 1879. Have you any suggestion to make upon that point ? — No, not any. I hope to see them entirely removed. Mr. William Fowler. 1880. You were asked, with regard to the dis- tinction that you drew between the eflect of exa- mination upon a woman when made by her medical adviser, and with her own consent, in the ordinary course of medical practice, and the effect of examinittion against her will, with the object of procuring her freedom from disease for the purpose of enabling her to carry on the trade of prostitution. 1 do not think that the answer that you gave was altogether clear. If I understood correctly wliat you meant, it was tiiis : that there is all the ditference in the world in the moral effect of such an examination according to the circumstances in which it is made ; is that what you mean ? — Yes ; and I could not imagine that there is any parallel with this in ordinary life. 1881. You mean no parallel with the examina- tion as ordered by these Acts ? — Just so. There is no choice of doctors, no choice of time ; it is done under duresse or confinement, and the woman has to be examined every fourteen days, whether she is healthy or sick, I know of no parallel, and believe that I shall never find one. 1882. It comes to this, does it not, that in the one case it is done with the object of procuring a cure of the disease for the purpose of ordinary life, and in order to restore health ; in the other case it is merely done with the object of securing health, not tor the benefit of the woman, but for the benefit of those who consort with her especially? — I understand it so, clearly, and the ■women declared it to be so on examination day, 29th July 1881. 1883. That is the idea which underlies the j^cts ? — Yes, to render prostitution innocuous, to use a common expression. Mr. William Foxoler — continued. 1884. You spoke in answer, I think, to the lionourable Member for West Aberdeenshire, at Question 1483, about the deterrent eifect of the examinations upon the women. I did not quite clearly imderstand what you meant by that. You are asked this : " In fact, assuming for the sake of argument the hardening process, you would ad- mit that these examinations have a deterrent effect upon the women, deterring them from vice?" And your answer is: "Yes; in some cases I think it may be so ; in other cases it may act strongly the other way, I think " ? — My meaning was that I think if it is deterrent to any extent from vice, it acts to a much greater extent in promoting concealment, the concealment of vice, and therefore tending to clandestine prosti- tution. That was my idea. - 1885. You mean that the woman, being afraid of coming under this (to her) obnoxious examina- tion, would take care and conceal the fact that she was so engaged ? — Just so. Everybody knows that the moment a policeman is looking after me, my aim is to evade him. Again : if 1 were disposed to go to Chatham for once, an ex- ception to my usual life, in order to indulge in vice, should I goto one of these licensed persons? No ; I should go to a private practitioner, for reasons which all can understand. Hence the great demand there is for clandestine prostitutes. 1886. I think the honourable Member put a question to you something like this : if it be a fact that a soldier prefers a woman who is regis- tered, and who, therefore, is assumed to be more safe, how can you account for the increase whicli you allege to exist in clandestine prostitution ? Do you recollect that question ? — I think there was a question of tliat kind ; but if it oi)erates to any extent in the way suggested, I think it operates much more extensively in the other direction. 1887. That is to say, does it not come to this; that the woman hiding her profession and being very anxious to conceal the fact that she is so engaged, is less likely to consult a doctor than she otherwise would be ? — Yes, clearly ; I have abundant testimony of that. 1888. Would not the effect of that be, taking the SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 75 28 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelee. '[^Continued. Mi\ William Fowler — continued. the circle of -women outside the Act, that their health would be rather worse than it otherwise would be, inasmuch as that they would not be so careful over their own health, for fear of exposing the fact of their jDrofession ? — The very conceal- ment tends to exacerbate the disease. 1889. So that it might turn out really, might it not, that while so far as the registered women were concerned, there was a better state of health so far as the unregistered body, who were in many cases at any rate a very large body, were concerned, their state of health would be worse than under the ordinary system ?— Clearly, from the concealment. 1890. That concealment, leading to an absence of taking medical advice at the right time? — Neglected disease. 1891. You gave a very strong opinion, as I understood it, that whatever the cause might be (you have indicated, at any rate, in your opinion, one cause), clandestine prostitution had not decreased iu your district ?— It has increased, is my opinion. 1892. Of course no statistics can possibly be given as to that? — No, because it is clandestine prostitution. 1893. You based it partly upon observation and partly upon what you had heard from others; is not that so? — Yes. 1894. I do not ask, of course, for figures in that case, because it is obviously impossible to give them ? — Yes. 1895. You were asked by the honourable Member for West Aberdeenshu-e also, I think, with regard to what is called the stamping out of prostitution, and you expressed, I think, no very clear opinion as to the possibility of stamp- ing it out, or as to the advisability of so doing if it could be done. I think there was a definite question asked you, whether you thouLiht it would be in the interest of the morals of the com- munity to make a law stamping it out ; but is it not a fact that the present law, except as modi- fied by these Acts, contemplates the putting down of prostitution ? — Yes, all houses of prosti- tution. 1896. The law, so far as it sees, is not a law of regulation, but a law of prohibition ? — Clearly ; excepting only the Contagious Diseases Acts. 1897. And supposing that you have an ad- mitted evil or crime, is it not the general princi- ple of our law to prohibit the evil and not to regulate it ? — Invariably, as I understand it. 1898. And you would disapprove of any at- tempt to regulate the evil ; you prefer a law which would endeavour to prohibit the evil? — The regulation inevitably involves a sanction. 1899. But you did not express a very clear opinion as to the moral effect of the stamping out or prohibition of prostitution? — I should have said if I had had a little more time to deliberate, " At present I cannot study that question with respect to constructive legislation for putting down prostitution. My present object is as much as possible to secure the repeal of this law, because it is so clear to me that it increases and encourages the evil." I say, first, cease to do evil, and then learn to do well. 1900. Supposing that you could, by con- 0.75. Mr. William Foicler — continued, structive legislation, as you call it, or destructive legislation, put down every house of prostitution in Chatham, would you or would you not think that an advisable step? — That is the aim of the law generally, and a very proper one, in my estimation. 1901. That is to say, that the morals of the neighbourhood would be benefited rather than injured if that was done .' — I certainly think so. 1902. There was another point which I do not think you were quite clear about. You said I think that there was an improvement in the character of the streets ; that is to say, the streets were not so disorderly as they were formerly ? — Yes, I think 1 said that. 1903. You do not attribute that to the Act? — By no means. 1904. To what do you attribute it?— To such influences as the 233 cases of conviction of women for indecent and unbecoming behaviour in the streets. 1905. You mean before the magistrates? — Before the magistrates; with a larger number, as I believe, of prosecutions of men. 1906. That is to say, you attribute it to the action of the ordinary pohce regulations, and not to the action of this handful of police sent down for the purposes of this Act? — Just so. 1907. Do you know how many of the ordinary police you have in your district ? — No, I have not any veiy definite idea. 1908. What is the population? — The popu- lation of the three or four towns, together within the limits of this district under the Contagious Diseases Acts, is 70,000 at a guess. Within°that population of 70,000, tliere are all the police belonging to the city of Rochester, and they are very effective. May I say, in connection with the police of Rochester, that they have a very effective bye-law that operates in the city in relation to indecent words or conduct. 1 909. That is as regards indecent conduct in the streets ? — Yes. 1910. But that does not apply in Chatham, because it is not an incorporated borough ? — No. 1911. You spoke a good deal in your original evidence, I think, about what you may call the relations of the police to the brothel keepers ? — I did. 1912. Something was said about that in cross- examination. I think I clearly understood vou to say, that your objection to that is, that it affords a quasi sanction to the business, because the police are in continual and sometimes almost daily intercourse with the brothel keepers, and obtaining information from them, not with the idea of at all stopping their business, but with the idea of seeing that they do not harbour any diseased persons, and of taking care that they know all the people who are in their houses. Is not that the idea '. — Yes, to see that the thino- is properly conducted. 1913. That is to say, that the police appointed by the law are dealing with offendens against the law, because that is really what it comes to? — Yes, against such laws as the 25 Geo. 2, c. 36, s. 5. 1914. They are dealing with offenders against the general law, which ii3 opposed to prostitution^ as if they were not offenders for this purpose ? — Just so. k2 1915. And 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 28 March 1882.] Mr. Wheeleu. \_Contiinicd. Mr. William Fowler — continued. 1915. And they are officers of the law, in a certain sense, conniving at an offence against tiie law ? — Yes ; and I ought to say, in addition to what I stated before, that feeling this difficulty, I have conversed with the chaplain of the Lock Hospital and with Inspector Kutt on the subject; and I learned from them the opinion that any- thing in the way of remonstrance against this illegal and immoral trade would be incompatible with tlie purpose of their duty ; that it would in- terrupt the smooth working of their office. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 1916. "VVho told you that? — The chaplain was one, Henry J. Boys, he who wrote the letter that I s])oke of in '"' The Times," and the other is Inspector Xutt ; they both assure me tliat any- thing in the way of remonstrance on the jiart of these men when they go to visit these houses would be incompatible with their purpose in going. Mr. fVilliam Fowler. 1917. Who is Inspector Nutt ? — Inspector Nutt, of the Contagious Diseases Acts police. 1918. Is he the head of the Contagious Diseases Acts police ? — Under the superintendent of the police in the dockyard. 1919. Then the inspector is the next in com- mand to him ? — Yes. Mr. Hanbuiy-Tracy. 1920. Has the superintendent in the dockyard anything to do with the Contagious Diseases Acts? — Y''es. Superintendent Smith is over tlie Conta- gious Diseases Acts' police, with an office in the dockyard. The superintendent of the dockyard is Rear Admiral G. W. Watson, r.n. Mr. William Fowler. 1921. Then be has an inspector under him, who reports to him ? — Yes. 1922. And this man, having that official posi- tion, has expressed, in I'act, the opinion that he cannot remonstrate with the brothel keepers, be- cause that would disturb his business? — Yes, and he draws a parallel ; he says, " If a carter is called upon to deliver goods, and departs from his duty, and leaves his horse and cart, you see that woulc be wrong ;" he endeavours to set up a parallel, but I do not see it. 1923. Nor do I ? — No, it is a failure ; there is no analogy. Mr. Oshorne Morjan. 1924. Are you aware, with reference to Nurse Wallis, that before September 1872 she was dis- charged from the Lock Hospital, at which she was a nurse, for improper conduct? — No, I was not aware of that. 1925. I think you said that you did not know under what circumstances she left ? — I did. 1926. With regard to Mrs. Dowsett, are you aware that she was a nurse on probation only at Chatham? — No, I was not aware of that until now. 1927. Y^ou are, no doubt, right in saying that she discharged herself; but are you aware that she left on being reproved by the matron for irregularity of conduct in reference to some other occuiTcnce ? — I do not understand exactly what Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued, occurred, but I believe there was some difference of view between the autliorities and her, and that led perha])s to her resigning. 1928. But you arc not aware, are you, that the cause of her discharging herself was, that she was reprimanded or rej)roved by the matrim for some irregularity ol' which she had been guilty ? — I know that there was a point in dispute between the authorities and her. 1929. You do not know that she left because she was reprimaiuled or reproved for irregularity of conduct? — I understand that she left on ac- count of this discrepancy of view between her- self and the authoi-ities at the hospital. 1930. Who told you that?— She did. 1931. She said that she left on account of a discrepancy of view ? — Slie did not say those words, but that was the substance. 1932. She did not give you to understand that she had left because she was reprimanded for some irregularity ? — No : but she admitted her complaint against them, and their complaint against her. Mr. William Fowler. 1933. At Question No. 1758, you were asked this : " Why did you not have the carter and this woman charged with an indecent act ; there was a remedy in your own hand» ?" And you say : " I did not think it was my duty to do that ;" I did not quite understand tliat ? — Clearly I did not think it was my duty for these reasons ; in the first place I went there that morning for the purpose of testing the accuracy of Mr. Sti- gant's evidence with respect to the unbroken order and decency that prevailed on those occa- sions ; and having assumed that post of observa- tion, and being still desirous of collecting the information that I might make no mistake, I felt inclined to retain my position. In the next place I should have to walk a long way to get a police- man, lor there was not one of the ordinary police- men in sight. I had reason to believe that there were two or three of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police within the walls of the hospital, for I believe they are always there on examination days, and I think I had seen tiiem go up ; but if I had attempted to give this man and woman in charge at the time, I should have remembered that which is rather singular and applicable to the case, that Superintendent Co])i)iuger of the Kent County Police declared beiore the magis- trate on the 13th of this month in a case of al- leged indecent assault, that the police under the Contagious Diseases Acts do not act in p(j]ice cases. 1934. That means, I presume, that they have no power to take up jieople in ordinary police cases ? — They do not do it at all events, and I suppose they have no power ; I do not find any power in the Act. I can give the date of these things, if necessary. General Burnahy. 1935. Withreference to some answers that you gave on the last occasion to the liigiit honour- able Gentleman the Member for Wiiitehaven, inasmuch as you have admitted that that state- ment in Leaflet D., viz., that " hundreds of terri- fied girls have signed this crafty lorm under the threat and terror of imprisonment," cannot be proved SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 28 March 1882.] Mr. Wheelek. [ Continued^ General Burnaby — continued. proved to be true, I wisli to ask whether you would do your best to get that portion of the statement withdrawn ? — If I find that it cannot be sustained, I shall withdraw it most happily. We only seek the truth. 1936.' From reading the evidence you gave upon the last occasion, I understand that you distinctly state that you cannot prove it to be true, except in this one single instance ; whereas your statement iu the paper which bears your name, that '•' hundreds of terrified girls signed this crafty form," is a very different thing from one girl ? — • I believe it is true; but I was not prepared at the moment to give the proof in facts. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1937. Are you prepared now to give the proof? — No, I am not ; I think it will come by-and- bye. I shall have to show by-and-bye the grounds that I have for the statement. Chairman. 1938. Are you prepared to-day to prove that statement ? — Yes, I am prepared to show the grounds for believing this statement to be true. General Bumahy. 1939. There is a statement bearing your signa- ture in which you say : " Hundreds of terrified girls have signed this crafty form under the threat and ten-or of imprisonment," and only one case is mentioned ; hundreds is a very vague term, and leaves the public to imagine that it applies to a very largenumber of people; do you know when this was circulated ? — Quite recently, and I am responsible for it. 1940. Then the test would be easily applied ; at Question 1785, one of the members of the Committee asks you this : " You have no autho- rity for it ?" and your answer is : "I could not refer to a hundred cases;" the next question is: " Can you refer to one ?" and your answer is, "Yes;" can you now refer to any more cases? — I can refer, if this is the proper time, to the statements that I have read on which that opinion is based. 1941. This is a serious statement to make and to put your name to, that " hundreds of these terrified girls have been induced to sign this crafty form under the threat and terror of im- prisonment;" your attention was called to this when you were last examined, and I take it that it is natural that you would have done some- thing in the meantime to ascertain how you could clear this up by reference to some memo- randa from whence you derived it? — I should refer to the evidence of Mr. E,. B. Williams be- fore the Royal Commission ; but I acknowledge that I am not prepared myself thoroughly with a reference to every paragraph which I have read, which I think sustains this statement. There are certain instructions to the police in the Ap- pendix to the same volume, page 487. 1942. Is there anything beyond that?— That is all that occurs to me at this moment. I am not prepared with chapter and verse in these cases at the present moment. I expected this to come up again at the next sitting. 1943. Then you would be prepared at the next 0.75. General Burnaby — continued, sitting to explain this statement in the leaflet; but should you feel unable then to do so, you would do your best to get the leaflet withdrawn with that paragraph in it? — If I find that I have made a mistake, I shall be delighted to correct it. Dr. Farquharson. 1944. In your answer to Question 1809 you say : "Another ground is, that I learn from pro- fessional medical men that a digital examination would give pain in the case of a virgin, if I may say that without being required to mention the names of them." Are you prepared to furnish the names of the medical men on whose authority you made that statement ? — I should rather not. Chairman. 1945. Do you decline to give the names?— On second thoughts I am sure 1 need not withhold the names. Dr. John Dann Brown of Rochester, M.D., Edin., was one, and Charles Bell Taylor, M.D., of Nottingham, was another. Mr. Hanbury -Tracy. 1946. In one answer that you gave you said that this Act, in your opinion, might make women conceal their state of health ; I suppose you mean from the public examination ; but it would not prevent them from seeking private medical advice, would it ?— No, not at all. If they were very poor, they could receive it gratuitously at Bartholomew's Hospital, the voluntary hospital that I spoke of. 1947. Just in the same way as thoiigh the Act did not exist ? — Yes. Chairman. 1948. How long before the transaction with the Contagious Diseases Acts police did j^ou know Mrs. Wybrow and her daughter? — Not at all until that took place. 1949. You said that the daughter got married to a soldier ; do you know when that marriage took place?— Yes, on 9th November 1876. 1950. Did you see much of her between the time of the correspondence with the Home Office and her marriage with the soldier? — I saw her occasionally ; probably until the regiment went to Ireland. 1951. Had you any reason in any matter con- nected with this transaction to doubt her perfect veracity ? — Nothing of that kind occurred until after she had been in a situation, and I went to the mistress who had employed her, and who had discharged her, and she said- the girl was not truthful, 1 think. I can turn to the exact words if necessary, but that is the substance of it. That is the only complaint that I ever heard of her being untruthful. But I must observe, in justice to her, that this was after she had been nine days at the Lock Hospital, and her mother complained that she got no good by going there ; and more than that, I ought to say that she heard there statements that were not consistent with the truth, and that was teaching her not to be truthful. I mean such a statement as this : the doctors both telling her that the only way for her to regain her liberty was to submit to exami- nation. That was not truthful. K 3 1952. Do MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEX KKFOUK THE •JS March 1882.] Mr. Wheelek. [ ConthiHed. Chairman — contimiccl. liX')2. l)(i you know when she cntercil into tliis situation? — It was very soon after tiiis transaction. 19;3.3. Do you know whether slic was dis- charged from it, or Avhctlier siie left it of lier own accoriiy — No, I cannot tell you, but 1 tliink her mistress discharged her, tliouglx not for that un- trutiifuhicss. 15)54. Do you know for what cause she dis- charged her? — I think it was for incomjietency. I am not sure, because I cannot refer to my paper. \dii5. Do you know liow h>ng srlic licUl tliat situation ? — A very short time indeed. 11)56. You remember a conversation you liad witli Doctor Jardine on the subject of tliis case? — Quite well. 1957. Tliat conversation, as I remember, was held on the 23rd of December 1875? — Yes. 1958. Doctor Jardine, as well as I remember, gave you a detailed statement with reference to the ])art tliat he had taken in this case on that occasion? — Very little detail compared with what he gives in his letter. I have noted very little indeed as coming from him ; it is an inde- finite term, but it is very little ; it is rather more than I expected. 1959. Dr. Jardine told you that he recollected the case ?— Yes. 1960. Did he appear to have any difficulty in recalling the details of the case ? — No, he did not hesitate, so far as I recollect. 1961. He told you that he had promised that he would not use an instrument ? — He said, " I promised her that I would not use the instru- ment." 1962. He appeared to remember that Mr. Weld felt undecided about the disease ? — Yes, " They determined (that is he and Dr. Weld together) to see her together, and they did so." 196;>. And he admitted that in this case the blame rested with the ])olice ? — Those are his words. IJefore we come to that, there is another point which should not be overlooked. " She had a discharge, but no disease. Miss Webb pitied her and gave her money, or something." 1964. You say that the rest of your conversa- tion with Dr. Jardine is irrelevant? — I tliought it so at tiic time, and therefoe I would not trouble the Committee with it; but I will read it if it is desired. 1G65. Will you read for me what you consider irrelevant in the remainder of his conversation? — I think the readiest mode is to read it all rapidly. 1966. Had the irrelevant matter anything to do with this girl's case ? — I think it had more or less relation to it. 1 967. Was it a statement of some details which you and I would probably agree in considering irrclev-int ? — Perhaps so. I will read my notes of the interview : " Object, courtesy. Stated salient point in Caroline Wybrow's case. Recollects the case. ' I promised her I would not use the instru- ment.' Dr. Weld felt undecided about the disease, and they determined to see her together; did so; she had a discharge ; no disease. Miss AYebb pitied her and gave her money, or something ; the girl exaggerates. ' I aljvays have the assurance of the police that they have explained the voluntary Chairman — continued, submission. They are, as Mr. Childers say.s, ex- tremely prudent and careful. But in this case the blame rests with tlie jyolice. It is a merciful law; the career of a jirostiiutc was five years, now it is 10 or 11. /'. W.' Is that good or bad? Mum; looks on yc floor. " This girl had associated with jirostitutes. — Aiisirer : Poor igno- rant pauper, soldier's daughter ; what could she do? Glad to pick stones or wash linen even for the lazy prostitutes in the court. F. If." Cow- ardly, mean, unmanl}'. ^c, to take advantage of such. Dr. J. " Prostitution always was and alway.s will be." — Ansu-er : So you may think as to thiev- ing; but no regulation of this ; all suppression ; continuous immoral influence, polishing and apolo- gising ibrsin; tramples marriage; invites to forni- cation, &c. Dr. ./. * ]\ly departure is hygienic only.' Yes; but bought at a price as much too dear as the soul is more precious than tiic body. You may not overlook this, if you will. Tliiidc of it this night, Doctor. Confusion of good and evil, rigliteousness and sin; Guise and good character. Admits that prostitutes if found diseased at JM aid- stone, Gravesend, or Shecrness, iiave fare paid to Chatham ibr treatment. No poor honest woman has this j)rivilcge ; what resource is there for her ? None, i hen is it not a premium on sin ? — Answer implies a reluctant admission." Mr. Osborne Muri/uii. 1968. Were these notes taken in Dr. Jardinc's presence ? — No ; immediately after I left him. 1969. They were never submitted to him ? — Never. All these notes were made in that way. Chairman. 1970. The interview which you have detailed took place upon the 23rd of December 1875 ? — Yes, according to my notes I believe it was that day. 1971. Dr. Jardine's letter to the sujjcrinten- dent of police (which is jiriiited in the Ap- pendix) was written upon the 12th of February 1876, was it not ? — Yes, I believe it was. 1972. You did not find in Dr. Jardinc's state- ment of the case, on the 23rd of December 1875, any traces of failure of memory or inconsistency? — He spoke very promptl}-. 1973. Did you find anything inconsistent in his statements on that day ? — No, I do not recollect anything. 1974. You do not impugn his memory with re- gard to the statements which he made to you on that day ? — No, I thought he seemed to recollect it. He said at first, " 1 recollect the case." 1975. When did you make these notes of the conversation with Dr. Jardine ? — Immediately after the conversation, as I always do. 1976. Did 1 correctly understand you, in the course of your examination or cross-examination, to say anything like this ; that Dr. Jardine's statement in his letter of the 12th of February was a statement made when his memoi'y of the matter was weakened? — No, I spoke of Dr. Weld, who qualifies the whole of his letter by saying, " as far as I can recollect." He appears to have no notes or book to refer to. That re- mark related to Dr. A^^eld only. 1977. Then I understand you not to impugn on the SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 79 28 March J 882.1 Mr. Wheeler. \_Continued. Chairman — continued, the ground of want of memory (not talking of any other ground of impugning it), the accuracy of Dr. Jardine's statement? — No, and I never did, 1 think. 1978. Witli regard to Dr. Weld's statement, you rely upon his expression " as far as I can i-e- collect," as showing that his memory of the tran- saction which he narrates in that letter may not have been accurate ? — Yes, just so. 1979. Can you point to any statement in Dr. Weld's letter of the 2nd of February which, either from internal evidence or upon any other ground, you can give reason for suspecting to be inaccurate; what do you refer to in that as show- ing evidence of defective memory, and as being inaccurate? — It does not agree with the statu- tory declaration of the girl. 1980. Will you point out to me the first point upon which Dr. Weld's letter differs from the statutory declaration of the girl ? — At present I do not see any one earlier than this ; that he says that she didn't fall off the table ; and she says, in her statutory declaration, that she did, and that he picked her up. I think that the two state- ments may be largely reconciled by this ; that he caught her by the arm, and said, "You have a nice fiit arm," so that she did not really fall on the floor. She said in conversation once that she felt the hurting of her arm for days afterwards. 1981. Do you see that Dr. Jardine, as well as Dr. Weld, denies that Dr. "\^'eld took hold of her arm ? — I do not think Dr. Jardine denies it. 1982. At least, he says, that he did not see it? — He did not see it. 1983. Are you aware that he was in the room upon the occasion, taking part in the operation? —Yes. 1984. Are you aware that he says, " Nor did I see ]Mr. Weld take hold of her arm ? " — • Yes. but that is entirely negative, it will be ob- served. 1985. As I understand your reason for doubt- ing the accuracy of Dr. Weld's statement lies in the words which he uses, " as far as I can recol- lect?" — Yes, pretty much so. 1986. Have you any other reason for doubting the accuracy of his memory in the matter? — Nothing occurs to me at this moment. I had several conversations with him. 1987. Nothing occurs to you except this, " as far as I can recollect," to cause you to doubt the accuracy of his memory ? — Yes, there is some- thing else. He writes something about her com- plaint with respect to the food. I never heard of any complaint except that. She states the fact that she had tea and water and bread. 1988. And he states the fact that he never heard that there was any complaint? — He states the fact that she was not badly fed. 1989. But does she state that it was to him that she made the complaint as to want of food? — No, I think not. Here is another point upon which he differs from the girl's statement, " Also that I stated to her mother that she had been with all the soldiers in the garrison is a down- right falsehood, and that I held her down while Dr. Jardine examined her is er|ually untrue." 0.75. Chairman — continued. 1990. Then your reason for doubting the recollection of Dr. Weld, so far as it is founded upon what you just now referred to, is because he and the girl differ? — And on account of the lapse of twelve months between the occurrence and his letter being written. 1991. That is another matter; but what you now refer to is the difference between his state- ment and the girl's ? — Yes ; clearly. 1992. So far as his conversation with you went, as I understand, you saw nothing in them to make you impugn Dr. Weld's memory? — I do not recollect anything at this moment. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1993. Wirh regard to this leaflet, I think you told me that it was issued, as far as you can re- collect, soon after February 1876 ? — It is very possible that there may have been something of the same kind, but there have been several editions. 1994. It must have been after 9th November 1876 ?— Yes. 1995. Could you give me any idea of the time when it was first issued ; would it be soon after the end of 1876 ? — I could not give any definite idea. I waited until we had the replies from the Home Office. So far I feel sure. 1996. It was some time in the year 1876 that this was first issued? — It would be after the com- munication from the Home Oflice certainly. 1997. How many editions of this leaflet have been issued ? — I can recollect three, but they were not all like this. 1998. Then it has been altered, has it?— Yes. 1999. Will you tell us in what respect it has been altered or modified ? — This foot note has been added. 2000. Has it been qualified in any way? — There has been nothing since to qualify this that I am aware of. 2001. Then, in fact, this statement to which my honourable and gallant friend called your attention, that " hilndreds of terrified girls have signed this crafty form under the threat and terror of imprisonment," has been circulated by you continuously from the year 1876 down to the present time; is that so? — No; not this. This is more recent than that,^ 1 believe. How- ever, I acknowledge that I have freely circulated it. That would be sufficient, I should think. 2002. For, we will say five or six years, you have freely circulated the statement that " hundreds of terrified girls have signed this crafty form under the threat and terror of im- prisonment"? — I cannot say how many years I have circulated it, but it has been circulated freely and liberally. 2003. You have continuously, for several years, circulated that statement? — Yes. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, 2004. And down to the present date ? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 2005. When was the last of these leaflets cu*- culated ? — I cannot tell ; very likely not a month ago. k4 8C MINUTES OK EVIDKNCE TAKEN KEFORE THE 28 M'lrch 1882. The Kev. Hugh Eyves Baker (M.A., of Trinity College, Dublin\ called in ; an.l Kxainined. Mr. Stansfeld. 200(). You are, I believe, Viear of St. Michael and All Angels, Woolwich? — Yes. 2007. How long have you been iu charge of that district? — I have been in charge of the distiict nearly 17 years, but I have only been vicar for the past three years. 200S. As I understand from you, your district has been made a parish fi)r about three years, during which time you have been the vicar ? — Quite so. 2009. Have your ministerial duties in "Woolwich afforded you great opportunities of becoming acquainted with the condition of prostitution in that town ?— Yes ; one of the worst parts of Woolwich is in my parish. 2010. Does your parish comprise some of the poorest parts of the town, most inhabited and ireciuentcd by jirostitutcs /— \es. 2011. Can you name one of the places? — Marty r's-passage. 2012. That is a well known resort of prostitutes in your parish ? — Very avcII known. 2013. Have you any curate ? — No. 2014. Having no curate, all the practical work of your parish in the way of visitation, I presume, is done by yourself? — Yes; by myself, _ with the assistance of district visitors, and a mission woman. 2015. How many inhabitants docs your parish contain ? — Five thousand two hundred. 2016. Are they sparse or close upon the ground ? — Very close. 2017. Are you from your lengthened residence in Woolwich also acquainted with other parts of tiie town? — Yes, tolerably well. 2018. Have you heard the allegation that one of the benefical consequences of the Contagious Diseases Acts in Woolwich has been tlie reduction in tlie number of brothels ? — Yes ; I have heard that. 2019. You are not prepared to deny the fact that there has been some reduction in the number of brothels ? — No ; 1 am not prepared to deny that brothels have decreased in number, but I am prepared to deny that that lessens the number of prostitutes ; because I know, from my own personal experience in my parisli, that wlien brothels have been closed, prostitutes have simply gone to other parts ; to houses in contiguous streets. 2020. To houses which would not come under the category of brothels ? — Yes. 2021." You have probably known of the closing of brothels in Martyr's-passage to which you referred?— Yes, I have known that Martyr's- passage contained nothing but brothels, but some of the houses have been pulled down. 2022. Do I riiihtly understand you to say that the brothels which have been closed in Martyr's- passage have simply been closed by the fact of the houses being pulled down?— That is so. 2023. Have two been pulled down upon a plot of land, with respect to which you have some plans' — Yes, some two have been pulled down with a view to building a mission chapel in the place. Mr. Slansfcli/- continued 2024. Take the case of brothels that have been shut up in Martyr's-passage, have none of them been re-let to respectable tenants?— Yes, there are four at the present time that is re-let to a respectable tenant. 2025. Hut those cases are very few? — Yes, it is quite exceptional ; ultiinatcly we hope to clear the place out. 2026. But the character of tlie place has been and still is bad, consisting, in the main, of houses used as bi'othels ? — Yes, quite so. 2027. And so far as tlie number of brothels in Martyr's-passage is diminislicd, the consequence, in your oj)inion, and as the result of your obser- vation, lias not been a diminution of prostitutes, but tlicir removal to other places ? — Quite so. 2028. Do you know the houses to whicii the women, removed Irom Martyr's-passage, have gone ? — In some cases I have known the liouses. 2029. I he effect, therefore, as I understand, in your opinion, of this reduction of the number of brothels has not been necessary to diminish the number of prostitutes, but rather to scatter them more widely abroad, as centres of moral contamination ?- -That is so. 2030 Are you able to say that tiiis opinion of yours is shared by other people in Woolwich, who have had somewhat similar means of forming a judgment upon the subject? — Yes, Father Cotter, the priest of the lioman Catholic church there, is of the same view tliat I am with regard to the Acts. The agent of the houses that we have been speaking of did say to me when we were conversing witli regard to the closing of these houses, and the pulling down of some of them, that he, for his part, could not see that there was any advantage to be gained, because they only went to other parts and spread them- selves about. 2031. Have you read tlie evidence of tlie Rev. Mr. Tuffield before this Committee? — Yes, I have read it, and I should be prejiared to contra- dict a great part of it. 2032. In that evidence he spoke of the im- proved condition of the town, did he not, during recent years ? — Yes. 2033. Do you agree with him in that opinion? — No, I cannot say that I do agree with him. 2034. Do you consider the present condition of Woolwich in respect of common women in the streets frequented by them to be better, or worse, than it was in former years ? — I do not consider it to be better. 2035. Have you, yourself, for instance, in Martyr's-passage, to which you have referred, seen sights inconsistent with decency and order in the streets ? — Yes, I have done so. 2036. Wliat have you seen? — I have seen the women almost naked. 2037. Very much undressed? — Very much. 2038. So as to leave no doubt of their character, or of the purposes for which they were there? — None whatever. 2039 Would you go further than that, and say that what you mean is that they were undressed to an indecent extent? — Yes, and I have also seen the women in Warwick-street, which is the street into SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 81 28 March 1882.] Rev. H. E. Baker. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, into which Marty r's-passage opens, behaving in a very horrid way, exposing themselves ; and, on one occasion, when the Salvation Army happened to pass through the streets at the time, several of these women put themselves at the head of the procession and danced about and partially exposed themselves in a very scandalous and horrid way, considei-ing that the street is toler- ably respectable. 2040. Did they at the same time use any indecent language ? — They were singing ribald songs of some kind or other. I could not catch all the words, but thej- were evidently not what they should be. 2041. Then you are not prepared to admit any change for the better in the streets of Wool- wich in recent years ? — No. 2042. Have you observed any change for the worse ? — I have in one respect. 2043. What respect is that?— That I have noticed within the last two years or so, perhaps a little more, a certain class of young girls coming on the streets that I have not noticed before ; a better dressed class. Although these girls may not be absolutely prostitutes, yet at the same time they certainly very frequently behave in a way which would lead one to suppose that they were. 2044. Your inference I gather would be that those girls were what we call sometimes clandes- tine prostitutes? — It might be so. 2045. You do not believe that they were registered prostitutes ? — No, they were certainly not registered, I should say. I would not like to say, positively, that they were absolute pros- titutes, but they were cei-tainly, I should consider, on the high road towards it. I merely mention that in order to show that I think the condition of the streets is certainly not better. 2046. What has there been in the conduct of that class of young girls to whom you refer, which has led you to draw these conclusions ?■ — I have seen them standing about in two's and three's in the streets, and at the corners of the streets, and, as it were, waiting for young men. 2047. At night, I suppose, you mean ? — Y'es, at night; and, although perhaps not exactly accosting young men, yet still being quite pre- pared to be accosted by them. 2048. Indulging in loud talk and laughter ? — Y'es, beha\ing in a very light manner. 2049. In fact, conducting themselves in a way in which no modest girls would conduct them- selves ? — Quite so. 2050. On the whole, is it your conviction that a larger number of young girls are leading im- moral lives in Woolwich than in former years ? — Y''es, I should say so. 2051. Y^ou do not by that mean, I presume, girls living on the wages of prostitution entirely ? — No, not altogether. 2052. Taking your own parish, have you, yourself, known cases of quite young girls who have gone astray, and whom you have rescued ? — Yes, several girls of 13, 14, and 15. 2053. You can sj)eak from personal experience to the reclamation of clandestine prostitutes at 13 years of age ? — Y'es. 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 2054. By what agencies ? — By sending them^ into homes. 2055. How were those girls discovered ? — They were discovered by myself, and by my assistants. 2056. Y'our assistants would be missionary women ? — Some of them have been discovered by myself, and some bj- my mission woman. 2057. With the assistance of the Contagious Diseases Acts 'police? — Yes, on two or three oc- ccasions. 2058. Have you any means of judging whether those young creatures were on the register or not? — I have no means of judging, but I should say that they were not. In fact, I may say that I know that in those particular cases of these young girls that I mention they were not on the register. Chairman. 2059. Do you mean those whom you re- claimed ? — Yes. Mr. Stansfeld. 2060. And you understood from them that they were not on the register ? — I did. 2061. Of what period are you now S23eaking ? — Of a period extending over, I may say, all my ministry there, but latterly within the last six or seven years. 2062. And you say that amongst those you have come across girls under the ages of 14, 15, and IS ?— As young as 13. 2063. Referring to Captain Hams's return at page 16, with regard to Woolwich, if we take the years from 1868 down to 1880 we find, in 1875, one child between 14 and 15 years of age? — T have got a list here of those who have passed through our own Home (or rather refuge, as we call it ; it is not meant to be a home because we jiass them on from it ; it is a very small place, and will only accommodate seven), and this is a memorandum of the number of young girls under 20 admitted into the refuge, beginning at 1869 down to the present time. In 1870 there was one of 13, two of 15, and one of 16. 2064. Now will you turn to Captain Harris's report, and look to the same year in column 6. In 1870, it is admitted that there was one girl on the register between 17 and 18, and no girls younger ?^No. 2065. Therefore, those girls whom you re- claimed who were younger were not upon the register? — Quite so. 2036. Now will you take the next year, atid give the number and ages in your return ? — In 1871 there were five of 15 years of age, five of 16 years of age, five of 17 years of age, and five of 18 years of age. 2067. New, if you refer to Captain Harris's return, you find, do you not, one under 17 years of age, three under 18 years of age, and three under 1 9 years of age ? — Y'es. 2068. Now will you give the number in your return for 1872? — ^In 1872 there was one of 14 years of age, one of 15 years of age, six of 16 years of age, and eight of 17 years of age. 2069. Captain Harris's figures are considerably less than yours ? — Yes. they are less. L ' ' 2070. May 82 MINUTES OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE IHE 28 March 1881.] Rev. H. K. Baker. \_Cotitiniicd. Mr. Stanitfekl — continued. 2070. Mav I take it from you that the figures of subsequent years would be very much like the figures yuu have read to us? — About the same. i!on. Will you cast your eye for a moment again to Captain Harris's return : are you not able TO say that his figures in the later years into which we have not yet gone, do not iigree with your fiL'urcs':' — They do not agree. 2'>72. "Will you jmt in that return ? — I will. ( 1 he same jviis delivered in.) 1 should like to say that our t'Xiierience is that about half of those who pass through this Home have been registered, and that of these registered women, or girls, not more th:;ii three or four have been reclaimed; while we find about .30 per cent, or more re- claimed on the other side. 2073. I assume that in your own mind you call them registered, or not, in accordance with the information which they themselves give you ? — Yes, quite so. 2074. And you see no reason to doubt that information ? — No reason. 2075. And, relying upon that information, you find that about half of those who pass through yiiur institution are registered, and half are not?— About that ])roportion. 2076. But that would not apply to the earlier ajres? — No, not to the earlier ages. 2077. There you find a great portion not registered ? — That is so. 207«. As a whole you find about equal quantities registered and unregistered ? — Yes. 2079. And of those you find the unregistered immensely more easy to reclaim ? — Quite so. 2080. (jroing back to your experience again, can vou express any opinion mi the moral con- dition of the youth of both sexes, the young men as well as the young women in Woolwich, compared with some 15 years ago? — I should say that the morals of the youth of both sexes were certainly not improved, but perhaps, on the whole, rather deteriorated. 2081. Are you under the impression, from your observation, that sexual immorality of late years commences in the young men of Woolwich at an earlier age ? — I believe it does. 2082. To what do you attribute that fact of the earlier depravity of more recent years, if it be a fact?— I think the general tendency of the auk thk 28 Mnicit I8S2.J Rev. H. R. Bakkk. [ Continued. Dr. Farq iiharson — conti nue J. have, because he is not a Parochial Minister ; he has IK) parish under his charge; he does nothing in the wayofjiersonal visitation, at present, I know. 2151. I think you are not in favour of closing brothels. "We have heard some people say that it was in the interests ol" morality to close brothels, but you find that tiie more brothels you close the greater the number of prostitutes becomes in a district? — I did not say so ; I said that the closing of brothels did not lessen the number of prostitutes. I do not know as to their being in- creased, ;uid I will not cinnmit myself to the statement that I would rather preserve the brothels. But the law ought to be preventive, as I understand it; the law ought not to regulate vice ; the law ought to stop vice, if possible. I will not say that I have formed a definite opinion as to whether brothels ought to be closed by law by violence. I may have an opinion that the closing of them in that way would not lessen sin, because somehow or other, as long as human nature is what it is, 1 much fear me that this sm will be committed. But surely the law ought not to regulate vice ; it ought, if possible,^ to abolish it : but the true way to abolish this vice, or rather this disease (which, I presume, is really the -reat object of the Contagious Diseases Acts), is, as far as possible, to put a stop to the vice. '2152. How do you know that sexual immo- rality is beginning "in Woolwich among the male population at an earlier age than formerly ?— I have a great deal to do with young men and youns lads, and I know numbers of those who workin the Arsenal, and I know that in certain shops in the Arsenal, particularly in the labora- tory, where hundreds of young lads are employed, there is a vast and fearful amount of immorality. 2153. But that vou consider due to M-hat you call, I think, the tendencies of the age?— Partly that ; and I certainly believe that the tendency of the Acts is immoral. I will not commit my- self to sayins that these young lads that I speak of know very much about these Acts, or have read them up, or have gone into them, or considered them, but I believe that the whole thing is de- moralising. It is certainly known generally that these women are what are called " Government women," what Dr. Cook called " Government women ; "' he used the word quite freely ; and it is known that they are under examination, and all that hasa tendency to encourage immorality. 2154. But the connection is not very clear to my mind between the increase of sexual immo- rality at an early age and the Contagious Dis- eases Acts?— I say that there are two causes; the tendency of the age, part of which is the greater independence of tiie youth of both sexes, and almost entire freedom from control, resulting in the loosening of moral ties. Children are ex- posed to the temptativju of the world, the flesh, and the devil earlier now ; and the tendency of the Acts generally is immoral, because it provides that sin may be committed with impunity. 2155. Then if you believe that sin is com- mitted with impunity, at all events you give a powerful testimony in favour of the hygienic suc- cess of the Acts?— I should ([ualify that by say- ino-, to a certain extent, with impunity. Whether that is reallv the result, I cannot say : but the Dr. Fartju/iai.tun — continued. object of the Acts is to enable tl»e sin to be com- mitted, so that those who commit it shall be free from disease. 215H. Then you admit that, up to a certain point, at all events, the Acts have been suc- cessful in diminishing disease, and enabliuj', .as you say, sin to be committed with iuipunity ! — I presume that up to a certain point they have been successful. As I said in the case of that jnnir girl who died, so I say in this case, that no Lunount of good which your hy- giene could do, would, to my mind, make the Acts desirable. 2157. Have you ever seen any woman com- ing out of the examination-room in a state of liquor? — I have seen women that I knew had been in the e.xamination-room, as I believed, under the influence of drink, before they could have got to a public-house. 2158. Do you think it is at all likely that auy medical man would examine a woman who was in liquor, under these circumstances ? — There are, of course, different degrees of drunkenness. I do not say tiiat I have seen the women drunk to such a degree as to be incapable ; I think, under those circumstances, no medical man would examine a woman ; but I certainly be!ie\e that the women I have seen have been under the in- fluence of drink, and I can fancy that that need not necessarily deter a medical man from examin- ing them. 2159. I think you said you thought it l)ettcr that women should be allowed to |ierish from disease rather than go on in prostitution? — 1 did say so, in combating the \\v\v that Mr. Tuffield put forward ; I still say that I think it was better for that poor girl to have died as she was, and in that state, than to go on leading a life of sin year after year, and year after year ; but at the same time I do not say, and I would not wish you to so un- derstiind me, that there should be no endeavour made to check this disease. By all means let there be hospitals for the disease, and let the disease be checked as you would check auy other disease, but not in this particular way. 2160. But this particular girl might have re- pented and given up prostitution, if she had lived '.' — She might, but there is nothing to show that she did not repent as it was ; I am far from saying that she did not repent as it was. '2161. You would not withhold all treatment from prostitutes unless they promised to abandon their vicious courses? — No, certainly not. 2162. You sympathise, of course, naturally with the desire of those who are trying to check diseise, caused in whatever way it may be? — I do ; but not in this way, by Act of Parliament. 216.3. Just a word about the statistics as to these women in the Lock Hospital. Arc you able to tell us that all those women on the volun- tary side were necessarily prostitutes ; may not some of them be women who have caught disease accidentally, say, from tiieir husbands, w in any other way,' and "who, therefore, cannot be com- pared absolutely with those on the Government siJe ? — I suppose they were not necessarily pros- titutes, but that I cannot say much for, one way or the other. 2164. They SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS.. 87 28 March 1882.] Kev. H. R. Baker. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 2164. They are simply diseased women? — I presume so. Dr. Farquharson. 2165. Of course the returns are returns of the number of cases, and the women may come back over and over again : can you tell us how many individual women are included in the returns of the Government women ? — That I cannot tell you without the paper. 2166. That is much more likely to be the case on the Government side than on the other side, is it not ? — That would be so, no doubt. 2167. Therefore that, to a certain extent, makes the statistics a little unequal, does it not ? — This list, as I understand it, gives you for one year all the individual cases, and not return cases. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 2168. I gather that these numbers are not the number of individual women, but the number of cases that came to the hospital ; that is to say, that out of these 485 cases, the same women may have come three or four times ; that is so, is it not ? — No, I should not say so. Dr. Farquharsoji. 2169. Can you give us any statistics as to registered women from your own Home in sup- port of your statement as to the difficulty of re- claiming the women who have been a longer time in prostitution ? — I know myself, from my own experience, that that is so. 2170. But you have no actual figures to give usr — I have no actual figures; but I have frequently dealt with both classes of women, and I know that those who are under inspection are the most difficult to deal with. 2171. Is there not a difficulty in the reclama- tion of prostitute^s, in the fact that there are a certain number of women in all large towns who have deliberately adopted prostitution as a pro- fession, just as any other person may have chosen another profession, and would not the difficulty of reclaiming such persons be always very great? — Yes, the difficulty is very great in every case; but it is greater in the case of those who are under inspection, and who are registered ; and for this reason, that you have just suggested, and that has been brought before me, that, they go back over and over again. 2172. Then you admit that they do go back over and over again to the hospital ? — Quite so ; I do not deny that they go back, because Dr. Cook himself told me that they did go back. 2173. Do you not admit that the Acts deter large numbers of young girls from becoming prostitutes who are just on the brink or fringe, as it has been called ? — No, I would not admit that. I have often thought of that, and I can- not say that I Avould think so, for this reason : that I think the Acts would not be deterrent in that way, because young girls do not consider these matters at all ; they are led astray, they are seduced in one way or another before they go on the streets ; and it is only after they have been led astray, or seduced in other ways, that they go on the streets. They do not begin by becoming prostitutes ; and the effect of the Acts upon them at first is to harden them ; the harden- 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued, ing effect takes place at the first inspection, or perhaps, the second. After it has gone on for some time over and over again then they do not care for the Acts. But at first it has j^roduced its effect upon them. Colonel Dighy. 2174. Can you tell me the reason why, in 1865), a Home was started at Woolwich for these young girls ; what was the origin of it ? — For the purpose of assisting these poor girls and getting them out of their sin and sending them to homes. 2175. But do you know why it was started particularly in 1869 ? — I believe the Home had been in existence before 1869, 2176. I thought you said that it was started in 1869 ?— I haVe taken the numbers back 12 years, that is all ; I do not think I said that it was started in 1869. 2177. I thought it was possibly in consequence of the Contagious Diseases Act, 1869 ? — I can- not say whether there was any connection be- tween the two things. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 2178. Does it not strike you that it is not quite fair to make a comparison between women who go voluntarily and women «ho are admitted compulsorily into these hospitals ? — Of course all the women who are compelled to go there are professional, and possibly hardened prostitutes. On the other hand those who go voluntariiv are, many of them, I suppose, not prostitutes at all; in fact, they have only this in common, that they are diseased ; they may be married women who have been diseased by their husbands, or who have con- tracted the disease in some other innocent way. Surely it is not quite fair to make a comparison between those two classes, is it, for this purpose? I find that in that list that I have put in there is a larmier muuber of jiersons on the voluntary side than on the other side ; and I take it that there would be quite as large a proportion on the voluntary side as on the other side, who are really bona fide prostitutes. 2179. You say "I take it," but do you know that of your own knowledge ? — I cannot say that 1 know it absolutely of my own knowledsie ; but I believe that the statistics of this hospital will show that the great majority of those whogo into the voluntary side are also prostitutes. 2180. I want to get the data upon which you foimd your answer ; have you been informed that that is so by the secretary or by any of the officers of the institution ?- — I cannot say that I have. 2181. Do you know that they distinguish in the hospital reports between the women who are pro- fessional prostitutes and those who are admitted simply because they are diseased ? — I believe they do. I have got a report here which makes some distinction. This is the printed report of the year before last {producing the same). 2182. In order to justify the admission of what are called " Government women " into this hos- pital it is necessary, of course, to show that they are prostitutes. In the case of the other women all that is necessary is to show that they are diseased ; they need not be prostitutes at all ; 50 l4 of 88 JIINUTE.^ or EVIPEXCE TAKKN BEFORK THE 28 March 1882.] Kov. H. K. Bakeu. \CunlinHed, Air. Osborne Morgmi — continutd. of them I sec were niarried women : does it not follow from that that when you deal with '• Go- vernment women"' you are dealing with an entirely different class : a class more difficult to reclaim, because they are professional prostitutes, whereas, in the other case, you are dealing with a class, some of whom may never have been prosti- tutes at all. It was with a view of ascertaining how far you could distinguish the prostitute class from the' non-prostitute class among the voluntary patients that 1 asked you whether the hospitals kept any register, or had any means of distinguishing between those who were prostitutes and those who were not prostitutes ? — I cannot say of ray own knowledge : but 1 presume that, as a matter of common sense, they have the means of distin- guishing ; of course your object is to nulify, to a certain extent, my opinion. 2183. You must understand, if you please, that that is not my object. My sole object is to get at the truth, and "for that pm-pose I am trying to test the grounds upon which your assertions rest. If vou have any explanation to offer with refer- ence to the London Lock Hospital I shall be very happy to hear it? — >i'o, I have nothing further to say with regard to that point. My object also is to state the truth. 2184. Is it not a fact, too, that a prostitute who voluntarily goes to the hospital, and thence to an asylum, has already begun to make, what I may call, a reelamatory effort of her own ; vou would expect to find that a woman who was in- fluenced to go of her own accord to a hospital, and thence to an asylum was, so to speak, more in the way of being reclaimed than a woman who was compelled to'go to the hospital, would you not ? — Yes, that is so ; but, on the other hand, supposing that there was no compulsion in the other case, I hold, contrary to the opinion of Mr. Tuffield, that a number of these poor women and girls would go to the hospitals if the hospitals were open to them. 218.J. Ai-e there not a large number of women, on the other hand, who have been reclaimed, and who, but for the fact of their having been com- pelled to go to the hospitals, would never have been reclaimed at all "i — Not in such nmnbers as there are on the other side. There are certainly some. 2186. Tiiat is to say. there are some women who have been compelled to go to a hospital, and have been in consequence reclaimed, who, but for that compulsion, would never have been reclaimed at all ? — That is possible in the case of a few. 2187. You said, I think, that you had read these Contagious Diseases Acts? — I have read the Acts. 2188. May I call your attention to ("lause 12 of the Act of 1866 :" •' A hospital shall not be certified under this Act, unless at the time ot the granting of the certificate adequate provision is made for the moral and religious instruction of the women detained therein under this Act"; are you aware of that ? — Yes, I am quite aware of that. 2189. Therefore, there are at least some moral and religious influences brought into existence by the Acts ; you will admit that ? — I will admit that much. 2190. Have you, yourself, been present at any ^Ir. Oshurne Morr/nn — continued, of the religious ministrations which have taken jilace in these Lock Hospitals ?— Xo, 1 cannot say that 1 have ever been at any of the services; I know the sort of services that take place. 2191. Do you know ])ersonally what goes on in these Lock Hospitals, and what sort l4' influ- ences are brought to bear upon the women there ? — ^ot i>ersonally. 2192. It is the fact, I think, that if a woman desires to be sent home to her parents, she would have her expenses paid ? — Yes. 2193. Therefore, sujiposing she wished to be sent home to her parents, I suppose the Govern- ment would i)ay her expenses? — Certainly. 2194. "With regard to the opinion of the inha- bitants of the district of "Woolwich, I suppose that there, as in other places, opinion is divided on the subject of the Acts, is it not ? — It is. 2195. You have referred to petitions which have been sent up against the Acts ? — One large petition signed by about 8,0U0 persons has been sent up. 2196. What is the whole ])oj)ulation of the district subject to the Contagious Diseases Acts? — The population of the whole district of "Wool- wich, Charlton, and Plumstead, I should tliiuk, would be between 30, this Committee on the part of several j)ei'sons practically interested in rescue work r — If I might quote an expression that I got from the lips of a few prostitutes within the past month, one of them said to me that they had a great fight to get her on the table, and now that they had succeeded in that she did not care what end became of her. Another said, not three weeks ago, that she was taken over to the hospital at nine o'clock at night, and made to go over thei'e ; and that she had to sign her name, and then, after some days, undergo an examination ; and now she said she had just as soon she was dead, because it was the most dis- gusting thing she ever knew. Dr Forquharsou. 2532. Did she mean going to the hospital? — Attending the hospital and going under examina- tion. Another, whom I knew to be a servant out of place, I picked up in a casual way, and walked a long way with her, and said to her that if she continued she would come under the opera- tion of the Acts now in force in Cork, and that she might find it not to be so agreeable ; and I told her then a little of the outline of the opera- tion. " Oh ! sir," she said, " if that occurred to me I would drown myself." I said, '• that is what is before you, if you persist in your evil ways." I believe I was enabled to send her to a situation a few days afterwards. Mr. Stansfeld. 2533. You say that, according to your obser- vation, since the Contagions Diseases Acts have been in operation at Cork, these women have become more hardened and less amenable to moral and religious influences '. — That is so. 2534. You have been in the habit of advising them for many years; do you find yourself, per- sonally, a marked difterence in the way in which they receive your friendly ministrations? — A marked difference : so much as to say, that they were now the Queen's women, and that they did not want me. 2535. Do you mean that those expressions have been frequently used by those women to you ? — Word for word. 2536. That they are now the Queens women? — And that the Queen looks after them. 2537. And that they did not want you ? — Precisely. 2538. Did the number of women in your Pro- te-tant Home increase or fall oft' after the inaugu- ration of the Acts in Cork ?— They fell oft' from about 34 down to about six or seven. 2539. I understand you to say that in your experience the influence of the administration of the Acts has been to harden the women and render SliLECT COMMITTEE OJN CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 103 31 March 1882.1 Mr. Kingston. \_Co)it'iii Mr. Stansfeld — continued, render them more difficult to reclaim ? — Yes, that is so. 2540. Have you also found that the proportion of those who were permanently reclaimed has been seriously diminished since the Acts came into operation ? — Yes, that is so. 2541. And jou know of no other conditions or causes existing in the city of Cork to account for the reduction of the number of inmates, and the reduction of the proportion of reclamations, than the introduction and working of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts ?— I know of no other cause. 2542. I presume that in Cork you have the two classes, the registered class and the clan- destine class of prostitutes ? — Yes, that is so. 2543. Since the Acts, more especially of late years, has the number of registered prostitutes increased or decreased ? — I do not know about that, because it is an official thing. 2544. With regard to clandestine prostitution, occasional jjrostitution, prostitution of women who are not registered, has that, in your opinion, considerably increased since the application of the Acts ? — I am prepared to state that it has increased ten to one. 2545. But as regards the registered women, have you no means of judging whether their number has diminished or not? — The number was diminished in 1876 very considerably by the closing ot the houses. 2546. I understood you to attribute that dimi- nution to the action of the Roman Catholic clergy ? — Yes. 2547. As a matter of fact, those numbers have diminished ; but at the same time you express the opinion now that the number of clandestine or occasional prostitutes has enormously increased in Cork ? — I state that. 2548. On what do you base that opinion? — On going out by night and meeting them, and conversing with them. 2549. In fact, you base it upon the experience founded upon the devotion of your life to this subject ? — Just so. 2550. And I understand, as a matter of opinion, you attribute the increase of clandestine prosti- tution since the Acts to the operation of the Acts ? — I think that is so. 2551. I want to know from you in what way you think the Contagious Diseases Acts have so largely increased the amount of clandestine pros- titution in Cork ; first of all, do you think that they have stimulated the demand for prostitution ? — That is a part of my statement. 2552. You admit that, whether it has been caused by the Acts or by the benevolent action of the Roman Catholic clergy, there is a reduc- tion in the number of regular prostitutes ? — Yes, a large reduction. 2553. And, therefore, I presume you would be disposed to infer, or to accept the suggestion, that the number of clandestine prostitutes had proportionately increased ? — Yes, I know that to be the fact. 2554. When you say that you know it, am I right in interpreting you as meaning that that inference has been confirmed by your personal observation? — Yes, and by the report of the local police. 2555. The local police of Cork? — Yes. 0.75. Mr. ^Yaw^e/t?— continued. 2556. Do you mean reports personally made to yourself? — Yes, to myself 2557. And you gather from them that, in their experience and opinion, clandestine prostitution has largely increased? — Yes. 2558. I suppose that in the course of time the clandestine prostitutes would learn the best way of evading the Acts ; have you found that that has been studied to some effect in Cork ? — I have reason to think so. They are engaged during the day in shoj^s and such places, and an idea has got amongst them lately that, if they are not seen in the company of registered women, the police cannot touch them. 2559. They keep away from the soclet}' of the registered women ? — Yes ; and some that are on the streets told me very recently that if they were not found with the other women who were registered, they themselves could not be touched. 2560. Have you ever heard the great increase of clandestine prostitution to which you have re- ferred admitted by any member of the Contagious Diseases Acts police ? — It is the common talk of Cork at the jiresent moment. 2561. But I ask you about the Contagious Diseases Acts jjolice ? — They admit it. 2562. Has any one member of that force ever made that admission to you ? — I asked some of them if they did not know it, and they answered yes. 2563. You have put these questions to mem- bers of the Contagious Diseases Acts police force, and they have admitted an increase of clandestine prostitution ? — Yes. 2564. Then I understand that on the whole the result of your observation, having dedicated your life to this subject, is that the moral condi- tion of Cork is far worse than it was when you began? — It is infinitely worse. Chairman. 2565. Did you say that the statement of the Contagious Diseases Acts police was, that there was an increase of clandestine prostitution, or that that increase of clandestine prostitution was due to the Contagious Diseases Acts?— That there was an increase of clandestine prostitution ; they admit the fact. INlr. Stansfeld. 2566. As to the condition of the streets of the city, are there more or less open scenes of inde- cency and vice now than used to be exhibited there ? — In one way there is a great deal more, becatise they have not so many brothels now, and they take every opportunity of going into the streets and roads outside the city to practice prostitution. 2567. But if you take now the aspect of the city, as it would jjresent itself to the eye of a stranger in the ordinary streets of Cork, is there more or less order and decency than there used to be in your earlier days ? — There is more order. 2568. To what do you attribute that improved order in the streets?— To two things, the break- ing up of the houses in 1876, and a large increase in the force of police at present in Cork, so that the patrols can, therefore, be more regular. 2569. Then you would say that vice is now pursued more secretly ; for instance, the prosti- tion of clandestine prostitutes must be pursued more secretly ? — And so it is. 2570. Taking not the heart of the city, but the N 4 outskirts 104 MINL'TKS OF EVIDENCE TaKKN BEFORE THK 31 March 1882.] Mr. Kingston. [ Continve d Mr. Stausfeld — continued, outskirts of the city which arc not so much under the eye of tlic jiolice, to a careful observer lilitinued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, of which they partly support themselves, or when they have formerly carried on such an industry, unless they are very hardened prostitutes, they prefer to give that as their nccupation ? — Always. 2894. And from your experience I presume you would have a greater hope of reclaiming those who were unwilling to call themselves prostitutes tlian of the 496 who gave themselves that name ?— Distinctly so. I think the fact that they avoid giving themselves the name shows that they are ashamed of the calling. 2895. To come to your own hospital, I suppose you have not always had the same number of beds. Up 10 the year 1869 how many beds had you ? — Thirty-five. 2896. In that year, the year before the com- mencement of Captain McCall's administration of the police, were you put under great pressure to accommodate the patients who applied for relief? — Yes; there were too few beds for the number of applicants for admission. 2897. Did you at one time treat many more patients than that number of beds would accom- modate? — Yes, there were 56 or 57 at one time in the house. 2898. In consequence of this state of things, did you provide increased accommodation in the year 1870 ? — The directors did so. 2899. To what number did they increase the beds ?— To 60. 2900. Since then have all the beds ever been occujiied ? — Never, the number at once fell. We could, in fact, have done from 1870 with the beds that we had before. 2901. I think I understood you to say that you never refuse a case ? — Never, certainly. 2902. And that in your opinion it is essential to the hygienic success of such an institution as this that there should be an ample supply of beds, and that every case should, as a matter of course, be immediately admitted ? — Yes. 2903. But the numbers of such applicants, you say, decreased immediately; in 1869, with a popu- lation of about 570,000, there were 624 lock patients, were there not ? — Yes, there were 598 admitted, and the additional number was made up from those remaining at the beginning of the year. 2904. And in 1881, with a population of up- wards of 700,000, the number of lock patients was reduced to 349, plus those who remained at the end of the previous year, making a total of 373 ?— Quite so. 2905. Has your lock hospital always been, in yoiir time, under the same conditions and regulations as regards the admittance of patients? — So far as freedom of admission is concerned, it has been; sometimes, where the patients were able to pay, there was a fee of a guinea taken where they gave it voluntary ; but if they did not pay they were not refused admission. I may state that in the year 1870 there were between 25 and 30 admitted who so paid the guinea, and last year there were only eight. 2906. But, at any rate, from the year 1870 no case has ever been refused ? — Certainly not. 2907. Have you the power to detain patients until they are cured ? — No. 2908. Ijut you have told us that you have 0.75—7. Mr. Stansfeld— continued. very little diiSculty in persuading the women to stay until their cure is really effected ?— Very little now. 2909. How many cases in a year do you think you have of women who refuse to stay until they are cured ? — I could not give you the numbers exactly, but there are very few. When I went first on duty there, there were a number who came and interfered with me during the visit hour, the time I take to examine the patients. I told the superintendent, who was a very shrewd man, that we could not put up with that sort of thing ; he said that it had always been so. I took the opportunity of going up to the wards, and I told the girls, in as kindly a manner as I could speak to them, that it was no pleasure to me to come there to attend them, and that they must see that none of their number were allowed to disturb the business as it was being cari-ied on, because, if so, I should at once resign my ap- pointment. I said that it lay with themselves ; if a girl came down and asked for their dismissal, or interfered in any way during the currency of the examinations, 1 would at once stop work for that day, and those who remained must do with- out further care until my return at the following visit. That stopped it at once, and we had little trouble with them afterwards. When a girl wanted to leave and go away for any cause, she waited until all the examinations were over, and then I had an opportunity of speaking with her; with the exception of cases which occur in any hospital, where perhaps the girl told us that her father or mother was ill, or something of that kind, which might or might not be true, but still I could not keep the girl in a case of that kind, nor could I in any hospital do so. 2910. Taking the case of the496 avowed pros- titutes, what proportion of those women, being under no compulsion to remain, go out before they are cured ? — The avowed prostitutes stay as long as yon like. Some of the older prosti- tutes would stay all their days with us. 2911. In fact, you have rather to send them away ? — Yes ; we have no trouble in inducing them to remain. 2912. Then I understand that, practically speaking, your evidence and experience amount to this, that you get on perfectly well without any power to detain the women in hospital against their will? — That is my experience. 2913. And that, although occasionally a woman insists upon going out prematurely, those cases are rare ? — Yes. 2914. Did the managers ever think for a time that it might be advisable to assume a power to detain the patients ? — They did. 2315. Did they make the attempt ? — They did. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 2916. W^hen was this? — About 1871. Mr. Stansfeld. 2917. Will you tell us what happened ? — We found that the patients refused to come in. 2918. Whatwasitthatthe managers proposed? — Rules for their guidance and for their remaining in hospital ; and an " Undertaking," as it was called, which they were to sienupon coming into the house, P 4 . 2919. The 120 JIl^UTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEEOKE THE 4 April 1882.] A. Patterson, m.d. [ Continued. Mr. Stunsfdd — continucil. 2919. Tlie iiroposal of the managers, as I iiiulerstanil, wat^ that a woman on coming in sliould sign an undertaking to remain until cured? Exactly so: but we soon found tliatit prevented their coming iu, and tliat some who were in refused to sign, and some who signed broke it ; and it was given up. 2920. And in fact the thing frightened them? — It frightened them. It was not carried out for ] 2 months. 2S21. "VVas that scheme abandoned? — It was. 2922. Have they ever seen reason to regret the abandonment of (hat scheme ? — Certainly not. 292.'5. Is religious instruction ]irovidcd for the inmates of your hospital ? — I understand that to a certain extent it is ; but with that I have nothing to do personally. 2924. But you are able to say that it is pro- vided ? — Yes, it is. 2925. I ])resume that in providing this religious ministration, it is addressed, as far as jjossiblc, to the saving and reclamation, pai'ticularly of the younger of the women who are there as patients ? — I should expect to all. 2926. Is it within your knowledge that many of them are reclaimed iu consequence of the influences brouglit to bear upon them in the hospital itself? — I cannot give au opinion as to that ; that is not a part of my duty ? 2927. Can you give any opinion as to the comparative reclaimability of the youthful and of the elderly prostitut€s ? — 'I'hat is almost a supei'- tluous question. In my opinion the younger the girl, the more easily she is reclaimed as a prosti- tute. 2928. Are these patients placed indiscrimi- nately, or are they classified ? — They are classified as far as ])ossible. 2929. You keep the old and hardened ones as far as possible from the younger ones? — Yes, in separate wards. 2930. "With regard to the reclamations at the hospital, I think Captain M'Call put in some reports, did he riot? — He did. 2931. What have you observed in the course of your hospital practice with reference to the sense of shame in women who have to submit to examination ; do you find it easily or early in their career entirely obliterated? — Very seldom. 2932. Do you mean very seldom even in a lengthened career, or very seldom early in their careers ? — It is very seldom entirely obliterated in any of them. 2933. Take the case of the avowed prostitutes, of whom there are 496 out of your 4,147, very seldom even in the case of that class of women, do yoii find the sense of shame entirely oblite- rated ? — There is always some sense of shame left under certain circumstances, I think. 2934. And with regard to the younger women I presume it is particularly evident? — Yes. I may state with regard to that, that a few years ago a number of students applied to my col- league, Dr. Dunlop and myseli to have a class formed for their instruction ; and the directors, as I think, very properly refused the permission. We find that on the examination days on which the surgeons are there, if there should be a stranger, although a medical man, present, some Mr. Staiisfchl — continued, of the girls almost refuse to come into the room ; whereas they know me or my colleague, and the clerk who is there, and they come in without any trouble ; but there is always an amount of hesitation when they see a stranger in tiie room. 29.'i5. In yom- o])inion, as a medical man familiar with this subject, would not tiie pciiodical examination of women for tlie purpose of ascer- taining whetlier they are or are not diseased tend to destroy this last remnant of modesty to which you have referred? — That is so, in ray opinion. 2936. Do you feel able to say from your experience, that with the disappearance of that last remnant of modesty would go also the last remnant of hope of their reclamation ? — I think so. 2937. You have no hesitation, therefore, I presume, in expressing the opinion that a volun- tary system of care and cure has this distinct moral superiority over a compulsory system such as that provided by the Contagious Diseases Acts, that it renders reclamation more possible? That is my opinion. 2938. As to the hygienic success of the volun- tary system, you would point, would you not, to the statistics which you have given us ? — Yes. 2939. And your evidence amounts to this, that the number of cases has constantly reduced itself with an increasing population ? — Yes, in a very marked manner. 2940. And judging, as a medical man, you are prepared to say that the character of venereal disease in Glasgow, and I think you said, accord- ing to the general opinion of your jirofession elsewhere also, has become considerably milder of late years ? — Yes. 2941. There is also a provision for the ti-eat- ment of male venereal patients in Glasgow, I think you said ? — Yes. 2942. In the lioyal Infirmary, in fact, there is a male lock ward, is there not ? — There is. 2943. Would your remark as to the diuiinution in the severity of venereal disease of late years apply to those male patients ? — Certainly, to both sexes. 2944. You could say from your own know- ledge that venereal disease had become milder in Glasgow in the case of the men as well as in the case of the women ? — Yes, it applies to both sexes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 2945. Is there any large military establish- ment in Glasgow ; do you know how many soldiers are quartered there ? — I do not know how many soldiers there are there ; I think the number varies ; there is a part of a regiment of horse and a part of a regiment of foot, and there are a few sappers and miners ; but the numbers I cannot give. 2946. 1 suppose that In proportion to the population, which we know is very large, the number of soldiers quartered in Glasgow is very small, is it not ? — 1 think that the number of soldiers in Glasgow is entirely out of ])ro2:)ortion to the population, as compared with many other places ; if you take some of the towns in Ireland, for instance, the number is quite different. 2947. As compared with places like Aldershot and SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS, 121 4 April 1882.] A. Patterson, m.d. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, and Portsmouth, it is infinitesimally small, is it not ? — Yes ; but it was also found that with regiments going from Aldershot to Glasgow, there was less venereal disease with the same number of men in 12 months in Glasgow. 2948. Therefore, of course that is one element in your calculations wliich, in comparing places like Glasgow and Portsmouth, ought to be taken into consideration for the purposes of our in- quiry, viz., that in the one place the proportion of soldiers to civilians is very much larger than in the other ? — That dues not bear on the point of the actual decrease of venereal disease. 2949. But there ' is this element to be taken into consideration in comjsaring, we will say, Glasgow and Aldershot for the purp)Oses of this inquiry; that at Aldershot the proportion of soldiers to civiliiins is very much greater than it is at Glasgow 'i — So far as that> remark applies, of course ; but it does not tell far. 2950. Have you had any experience, medical or otherwise, of the places in which the Con- tagious Diseases Acts are in force ? — None. 2951. You said that all comers were admitted to your hospital ; I suppose no letters of recom- mendation are necessary ? — None. 2952. To go back to a question that I put to you before ; I supjDOse you will admit that no such special sources of temptation as would occur, we will say at Portsmouth, when a vessel comes into Spithead full of sailors and marines, could occur in Glasgow ? — We have the Channel Fleet coming into Greenock occasionally. 2953. That is some way off, is it not ? — It is 21 miles ; but we would get the result of it. 2954. As a matter of fact, do not a great many of these prostitutes come in from places in the neighbourhood of Glasgow ? — That is quite so ; they have always done so. 2955. From surrounding places, I suppose ? — They come from Edinburgh, they come from Greenock, and they come from all the shipping towns. 2956. Do you think that all those who are diseased come from those places to your hosj)ital ? — I cannot say that they all come to our hospital or to any hospital ; but I know that as many in proporti(m come now as would come in former years ; there is no reason why they should not. 2957. I observe that in your report you speak of the subscriptions being insufficient ; it is rather singular that in so wealthy a place as Glasgow, an institution of this kind should not be liberally supported, is it not ? — It might be thought so ; but the moral feeling against such an institution, or any recognition of it, is very strong. 2958. There is in Glasgow a strong feeling against the recognition of vice, even in the form of a hospital establishment ; is that so ? — That is quite so; I may state that we take in the paro- chial or poor patients ; when they go into the poor-house hospital they are sent to us ; and for them from the City parish poor-house we get 48 I. a year, and from the Barony parish we get 24 I., and from the Govan parish we get 12 Z. 2959. Except as to these contributions, which you can hardly call voluntarj', your hospital is 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. supported entirely by voluntary contributions? — Those are voluntary also. 2960. All the other subscriptions are those of private individuals ? — Entirely so. 2961. You get no subsidy from the town? — None whatever. 2962. Can you tell me what your average sub- scriptions in the course of the year are ? — I can- not, but the annual report will give it. 2963. You said, did you not, that you found no difficulty in detaining the patients i'or a suffi- ciently long time ? — I think I did not say that ; I think I said that I found very little difficulty. 2964. Do you find, on the other hand, that they come in soon enough ? — They do with us, so far as Glasgow is concerned. 2965. You find that it is not a stumbling block, so to speak, in your way, that the women do not come in sufficiently early to be easily cured ? — With some individual cases it is. For instance, the worst cases we get are those from the rural districts, and those remain out, I sup- pose, as long as they can keep their feet to earn their bread ; but those that are in the town the moment they know that they are affected with disease, I believe come to us. 2966. You would divide them into two classes ; you say that those in the town come in at once, but that those in the rural districts do not come in as long as they ai'e able to work ? — I say that the worst cases that we get in the hospital (they are not many) come from the rural districts, and that those patients keep on their feet apparently, in many cases, as long as they are able to work. 2967. That would, of course, account for the disease being in their case more aggravated ? — Distinctly. 2968. You, as a doctor, would agree with me, I pi'esume, that the sooner you can catch the patient, if I may use such an expression, the better, with a view to her speedy cure ? — Quite so. 2969. Every day or every week might aggra- vate the disease ? — Yes ; it is like a fire, the sooner you put it out the better, to keep it from spreading. 2970. A good many of these 349 women, I observe, have been admitted more than once ? — Yes. 2971. It is correct, I think, to say that out of the 349 women only 209 were treated for the first time ; was not that so ? — Yes, that is cor- rect. 2972. Then 86 were admitted for a second time, and 32 for a third time, and so on ; so that, of course, in a good many cases considerably more than half the women came in again and again ; is not that so ? — A good many come in when they contract the disease again. The same woman may be in half-a-dozen times in the course of seven years. 2973. Therefore, in that respect, as regards the fact of the re-admissions, your Lock Hos- pital does not differ from the Government certi- fied Lock Hospitals, where one of the causes of complaint is that the patients come in again and again ? — You could not keep them out ; we do not keep them out. Q 2974. When 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 4 April ] 882.] A. PaTTEKSON, 5I.D. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne lUwri/a/i— continued. 2974. When a woman comes in, I suppose vou at once examine her in the same way in whicli she woukl be examined if slie was examined compulsorily ; do you know anything about the examination under the Contagious Diseases Acts.'— Yes, a little. We should examine her to find out what was the matter with her. 2975. There is only one way of examining those women I suppose, and they are subjected to that examination ? — Quite so. 2976. And that is, in fact, the condition upon which they are submitted to treatment ? -Dis- tinctly. We would send them away if they did not submit. 2977. Do you find that they make any diffi- culty about being examined? — Of course, with the younger ones, it is a painful process. 2978. It is physically painful ?— It is physi- cally painful, and sometimes I give them chloro- form to avoid the pain. 2979. Is that often done? — Not often ; but I do it rather than give them pain. 2980. Of course you have a large private practice; I suppose the whole examination is very much the same as that to which ladies,^ or non-hospital patients, would be subjected ? — Yes, much the same. Of course, in the case of pro- tected districts, you examine them whether they will or not. 2981. I did not mean to question you as to the difference in moral effect between the com- pulsory and voluntary examinations, but merely as to the nature of the examination itself?— Physically the examinations are of necessity the same ; the parts are the same. 2982. You were speaking about the striking diminution which had taken place in the munber of women admitted to your hospital before and after the Police Acts of 1870 in Glasgow came into operation ; what is the area over which the jurisdiction of the Glasgow Police Acts extends; does it extend over all those 700,000 people who are included in the census ?— -Not completely; there are a number of outlying suburbs inde- pendent of the jurisdiction of the city police, which come under the control of the county police. 2983. With regard to these outlying suburbs or district.s, they, you say, do not come under the operation of the City Police Acts? — Not altogether, as far as I know ; I think not ; but Caplain McCall, I think, gave full information as to that. 2984. Do not many of these women who come to the hospital reside in those districts? — We class them all under the definition of Glasgow women ; we do not take the street or the dis- trict. 2985. Y'ou could not say whether they belong to that part of Glasgow over which the City Police Acts extend ? — I could not, because they come from all quarters. 2986. I suppose your experience would go to show, would it not, that the worst cases ai-e the new comers, the first cases ; or would you say that the worst cases were those that came from outside the city ? — I thought I had already said that the worst cases are those from the rural Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, districts. Those ff\\o have been repeatedly in the hospital are not by any means the worst cases. 2987. You say that the worst cases are those from the rural districts, and I understand you to say that the reason why those are the worst cases is that tliey do not come in until the disease has taken hold of them? — Exactly so; it is the first time they have caught the disease, and they are reticent, and do not ajiply for advice until they are very bad. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 2988. Is it your opinion that there is, compa- ratively speaking, a very small amount of vene- real disease in Glasgow now? — I think that there is less than there was ten years ago ; but I do not see how I can possibly answer that ques- tion ; it is a question of degree. 2989. Did you consider that amongst the 700,000 people, who, I understand constitute the population of Glasgow, there is less venereal dis- ease than there is in any other similar area? — I could not pretend to say. 2990. But if the number of females that have venereal disease is represented by the 349 ad- mitted to the hospital, is not that a strong reason to believe that the venereal disease amongst the female population of Glasgow is very small ? — It is less than it was. 2991. If out of a population of 700,000 people you have only 349 admitted into the hospital durinu the year, is not that a good ground for supposing that the amount of venereal disease in Glasgow is very small ? — The number in 1869 was 598, and you may take it proportionately. 2992. I do not want it proportionately, but I want to take the year 1881. If the number of female patients admitted in the course of the year 1881 to the Lock hospital is only 349, is not that good ground for supposing that in the year 1881 the amount of venereal disease in Glasgow was very small ? — I do not see, with all respect, how that admits of a definite answer from me, though I should be very willing to give it if I could ; I can only compare it with other years by saying that it is much less than it was 10 or 15 years ago in proportion to the population. 2993. I want to know what the amount of venereal disease is in proportion to the popula- tion ?— It was one in 2,018 in 1881. 2994. You have 700,000 people in Glasgow, have you not? — Yes. 2995. Is it your opinion tbat this population of Glasgow is under any peculiar immunity from venereal disease as compared with any other similiar population in Great Britain or elsewhere ; do you consider that the amount of venereal disease now in Glasgow is small ? — It is small in proportion ; that is all I can say. 2996. In proportion to other places ? — In pro- portion to the number of people. 2997. Is it small in proportion to other places ? That depends altogether upon the state of the population in other places. If you take the rural districts for instance, you will find whole rural districts, or you would have found them years aero, where such a thmg was totally unknown ; ° and SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 123 4 April 1882.] A. Patterson, ji.d. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, and that is the case in many places to this day unless it is imported. 2998. Your opinion, as I take it, is that the number of the female population suffering from venereal disease in Glasgow now in proportion to the general population is small ? — I think so. 2999. On the 31st December 1881, you had only 23 female piatients in the hospital, had you not ? — That is correct. 3000. Did you not think that those 23 patients were a very small proportion of the female popu- lation of Glasgow to be suffering from venereal disease ? — It is not possible to answer that. I can only answer it comparatively, comparing it ■with previous years when the numbers were greater. 3001. I do not want to go into comparisons at all ? — It is a very small number in proportion to the number of people in the city. 3002. In proportion to tlie number who were suffering from venereal disease ? — I cannot tell you. 3003. Do you not think that there were a great many other women iu Glasgow suffering from venereal disease ? — Very probably there were. 3004. Have you any data other than the Lock hospital reports, to which you have referred, to show the decrease of venereal disease amongst the lower classes of the population of Glasgow ? ■ — I cannot see how such data could be obtained. 3005. But you have no such data ? — I should be very glad to produce them if I could obtain them. Chairman. 3006. You have not got them? — iN'o, Ihave not got them. I have my own personal observa- tion, if that is worth anything. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 3007. But it is merely an opinion? — It is. 3008. Have yuu any experience amongst the lower class of the population of Glasgow, such as seafaring people and factory operatives, who are suflering from this disease ? — I have, and I have had for a long time. 3009. Quite recently ?— Yes. 3010. Do you find that venereal disease is very prevalent amongst them ? — It is prevalent to a considerable extent ; but I think it is less now than it was in former years. 3011. But still it is prevalent? — That is also hard to define. 3012. Is it less in point of numbers, in point of quantity, or in point of virulence ? — In all three ■ways. 3013. You say that you have had considerable experience amongst this lower class of the popu- lation, and that in your opinion venereal disease is less in quantity amongst them than it was? — Yes. 3014. Do you believe that any considerable proportion of the female population that belong to this particular class who are suffering from this disease, come to the Lock hospital ? — Yes ; it is from that class that they come to the Lock hospital. 3015. Those would not be prostitutes ; I mean women other than prostitutes ? — They do come. 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued. 3016. "What proportion of the 349 that came into the hospital last year were prostitutes ? — It is not very easy to answer that off-hand. Only a very few of them avowed themselves to be prostitutes. I have put in a table which shows the occupation of the patients admitted to the lock hospital during 10 years, and of the total number of 4,177, I think only 496 admitted that they were prostitutes. 3017. But surely the managers of your hospital, being persons of experience, can always ascertain pretty nearly whether a woman is a prostitute or not ? — I have said that those were the numbers who avowed themselves prostitutes. We know that many others are so, but they do not admit it. 3018. Out of the 349, what number do you suppose -were prostitutes ? — I can hardly '-fell. According to this return, a little over one-tenth of the 349 would be avowed prostitutes. 3019. That would be about 35 ?— Yes. 3020. How many of the others do you sup- pose were really prostitutes? — It is impossible to tell you. 3021. What you state in your report is, that on the night of the 31st of December you had 23 in the hospital ; you do not know how many of those 23 were prostitutes ? — I do not know. 3022. With regard to these women who belong to the lower class of the population to whom I have just referred, are there not many suffering from disease who do not come to the hospital ? — I believe there are- 3023. Do you think it is a larger or a smaller proportion ? — I should think that the larger pro- portion of them find their way to the hospital. 3024. Then, do you think that really amongst such a low class of the population there are only some 250 women who suffer from veneral disease in the course of the year? — -I said there were 349 admitted in the year 1881. 3025. But you have already told me that 50 of those were recognised and admitted pros- titutes ? — Yes. 3026. Allowing 50 more for those who were also prostitutes, but who did not admit them- selves to be so, that would leave about 250 ; do you mean to say that you think there are only 250 women affected with venereal disease amongst the lower class, the seafaring and operative class in Glasgow, in the course of the year? — I do not say so. 3027. You think that there were more ? — I think so. 3028. A great many more ? — You may put it so, but I cannot say how many. 3029. You think there were a considerable number who never came to the hospital at all, but who were suffering from the disease ? — That is possible ; but I cannot say. 3030. Have you ever made inquiries amongst the other medical practitioners in Glasgow con- cerning the extent and prevalence of venereal disease ? — I think that those connected with the Lock hospital have the best opportunities for knowing about that. 3031. Have you ever made inquiries of other medical practitioners as to the extent and pre- valence of venereal disease generally amongst Q 2 the 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN REFOHK TIIK 4 Jpril 1882.] A. Patterson, m.d. l^Continucd. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch — continued, the j)opulation of Glasgow ? — No, I liavc not, and I think tliat those connected witli the Lock liosjiital Ikivc fully as good means as any other peojilc in the town liave of knowing it. 3032. l»iit when yon say that the Lock hospital had only 23 patients out of a large population on the night of the 31st December, 1 should have thought it ]iossible that you might have made inquiries of other medical men having more exjierience of this disease ? — No, from the very fact of our being connected with the Lock hospital, many of the patients suffering from that disease, both gentlemen and others, come to us as jn-ivate patients. 3033. With regard to the virulence of the disease, we have had evidence from Mr. Mac- iiamara, whose name you no doubt know. At Question 6440, he was asked this by the Eight Honourable Gentleman, the Judge Advocate General. "You have great experience of venereal disease in Dublin ; can you give me any idea as to its character at present, whether the syphilis was of a severe type ? " and his answer was, " We have a most extraordinary outbreak at the present time of gonorrhcca; I never saw gonorrhoea so virulent as it is in the female patients at the present time in the Lock hospital. We only admit women to the Lock hospital ; but amongst the private male patients ^■ho do me the honour of consulting me, I never saw anything so severe as the character of the gonorrhoea at the present moment prevalent in Dublin." Then the next question addressed to tiie witness is this : " Is the syjihilis also virulent?" and he says, " The syphilis that has been going on lately is of a very severe character." Have you ever known of late years a similar outbreak at Glasgow ? — No. 3034. But I suppose it is possible that such an outbreak might occur? — It is possible at any time ; ))iit it has not occurred. Venereal disease has been getting gradually less virulent within the last 20 years ; that is my experience. 3035. I suppose the same catises which have made it assume a more mitigated form in Glasgow might have had the same effect in Dublin ? — I cannot speak as to Dublin. 3036. To what then do you attribute the mitigation? — There may be other causes at work than merely the Police Acts. 3037. There may be an incidence of disease nitich more severe at one time than another ? — Thore may be, and if we adhere to our sanitary regulations we shall probably lose the risk of incidence at all as a rule. 3038. But do you not suppose that the sanitary regulations of Dublin are quite as good as they are anywhere else ? — Not for one moment ; in Glasgow the sanitary arrangements are very good, in Dublin they are very bad. 3039. Do you not suppose that the same care is taken of the patients in the Lock Hospital in Dublin as in Glasgow ? — I suspect that the dwellings are not so good before they go into the Lock llospital in Dublin. 3040. Do you think that if a man goes into a bad dwelling he would catch syphilis? — It de- pends upon whom he cohabits with when he is inside : but the female who lives in an ill-venti- I\Ir. Cavendish Bentinch — continued, lated divelling, or who is in a worse sanitary condition, will have probably a worse attack, or will be in a worse state than one who lives in a clean well-ventilated house. 3041. But it would not make a man catch it? — No, by no means; and I did not say so; it requires contact for that. 3042. Is it not possible that there might be a more severe incidence or outbreak of these diseases at Glasgow than there has been hitherto ? — I cannot think so for a moment. 3043. You say that is is impossible? — I think so. 3044. And therefore, in your opinion, this disease must always assume the mitigated form which it presents at present ? — I think it is likely to do so at Glasgow, so long as the present sani- tary regulations are adhered to in the city and surroundings. The buildings are very much better; and altogether the sanitary regulations are much better than they were 20 years ago. 3045. If you look at Mr. Macnamara's evi- dence, you will see that this outbreak not only affected people who lived in these very insanitary places, but also his private patients? — So 1 see. 3046. Do you think that sanitary arrangements have anything to do with that ? — If a man con- tracts a virulent form of the disease from the female, hers will also very likely be so. 3047. But you do not think that the private patients who do Mr. Maenamara the honour of consulting him are likely to contract disease in that way .' — I cannot answer that question. 3048. I lake it to be your opinion, therefore, that these outbreaks of the severer forms of disease are not likely to occur in Glasgow ? — That is my opinion, and I found it upon this, that many years ago we had outbreaks of typhus fever, and fevers of that description, and they are very much less now than they were 20 or 30 years ago, because the overcrowding has been put a stop to ; and it tells upon syphilis as well as upon other diseases. 3049. You have told us, I think, that very few women have been discharged uncured from your hospital? — The word "cured" is used in the report, and I supposed that it is used in other hospital reports as well, in the ordinary acceptance of the term " cured." We send them away with no visible marks of venereal disease about tliem; but I, myself, do not con- sider that that is curing a patient. 3050. They would not be suffering from a disease that would be contagious? — No, not at the moment that we send them away, so far as we can observe. 3051. I suppose you send them away cured in the same sense in which the word would be used in any other Lock hospital ?— I think so ; but I do not myself consider that they are cured. 3052. I think I understood you to say that very few women discharge themselves ? — Very few with us now. 3053. Can you tell me how many women dis- charged themselves in a year ? — There will not be one a month now. We get most of them to remain, by talking with them. Sometimes, if they tell us that a relative is very ill, or that a father is dying, or something of that sort, we may not have the means of verifying the state- ment SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 125 4 April 1882.] A. Patterson, m.d. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, ment made to us, yet still, if they persist, we let them go. 3054. Let me call your attention to the words that were used by the last witness that was examined, the Rev. Dr. Cook, the chaplain of the London Lock Hospital. At Question 2776 the Right honourable Gentleman, the Member for Halifax, asked him this ; " Can you tell us how far your voluntary patients have been willing to remain till they are cured ? " and the answer that Dr. Cook made was, " I think I am right in saying that the medical staff find the volun- tary patients (it may be through their own ignorance) often desirous of departing before the medical oj)inion would authorise their departure. They are sometimes ignorant of their own state. All of them. Government or ordinary, are, as a class, wilful and hard to restrain by any agencies ; they all want to go off to their liberty, as they call it." That is not your experience ? — It is not. .3055. Would you think it undesirable, if a woman wished to leave before she was cured, to detain her ? — I would think it desirable that she should remain ; but I would not think it desir- able to restrain her. 3056. I mean detaining her by force against her win ? — 1 would not so detain her. 3057. You would rather that she went out and communicated the disease ? — I think that in the long run it will succeed better without force. 3058. But you are aware that that is not the experience of the Lock Hospital authorities in London ? — I am not aware what their experi- ence is. 3059. Have you not read Mr. Lane's evi- dence ? — I am not sure that I have read all the evidence given. Mr. Burt. 3060. I understand your evidence to be very decided as to the great improvement that has taken place in Glasgow since the year 1870 ; that there are fewer prostitutes, and that they are much better conducted than they were in 1870 '.'—That is so. 3061. And I think you also said that the disease that exists is much less in quantity, and is also of a milder type ? — That is so- 3062. The Contagious Diseases Acts have never been applied to Glasgow, have they ? — Never. 3063. So that any improvement that may have taken place is not due to their operation? — Of course not. Mr. TJopwood. 3064. It was put to you just now by the Right honourable Gentleman that the expe- rience of the authorities of the London Lock HosjDital was in conflict with your idea as to women being easily retained by persuasion until they were perfectly cured ; are you aware that the Lock Hospital in London is subsidised, and , is a Government hospital ? — I understand that they take in Govei-nment patients. 3065. And they have a Government ward, and that a very large proportion of their patients 0.73. Mr. ^o/)z<;oo(i— continued. are sent there by the Government authorities ? — I understand that to be so. 3066. Then it is quite possible that that hos- pital being to that extent a Government institu- tion, its authorities may have a predilection for the Government system which you do not favour? — It is quite possible. 3067. With regard to these examinations ; you were asked whether they were of the kind usual in surgical examinations ; do you use the speculum in all cases ? — Yes. 3068. In fact, I suppose that it is not possible to make a scientific examination properly, and with any certainty, without using the speculum ? —No. 3069. And, as I understand you, the use of that instrument gives a good deal of pain in the cases of younger women who are new to the ope- ration? — Certainly, and in some cases you can- not use it. Take, for instance, the case of a virgin (although it is not often that we meet one, but we do occasionally), in such a case you cannot possibly use the speculum. 3070. Although they are prostitutes you meet with cases in which the hymen has not been per- forated? — I do not say that they are avowed prostitutes ; they are only very young girls who have not long been leading that sort of life ; but you cannot examine such cases with a speculum ; it would be cruelty to do so. 3071. As I understand, your hospital is open to cases of venereal disease generally, and is not confined to cases of syphilis? — It is open to venereal disease generally. 3072. A question was put to you as to whether there was in Glasgow impatience felt against any recognition of sexual vice by even the existence of a hospital to cure the disease consequent upon it ; and I understood j-ou to say that there was some such impatience ? — I think so, and I deduce that from the fact that there is some considerable difficulty in getting subscriptions. There are many people who subscribe largely to other in- stitutions who do not subscribe to the Lock Hospital. 3(373. If that feeling exists, would it be, in your judgment, intensified as against a Govern- ment hospital. State-paid for the purpose ? — Most distinctly ; they would not have it in Glasgow. 3074. As regards the support of the hospital, do you find a good may benevolent people who are in favour of maintaining it for the wise pur- pose for which it has been instituted? — Yes, for certain diseases, the same as in the case of other diseases. 3075 . In that sense does the hosjDital meet with any opposition at all from anybody ? — None. 3076. You have made these unfortunate diseases a study for the 1 1 years for which you have been in the responsible position which you now occupy as medical adviser to the Lock Hospital; had you any acquaintance with the subject previously ? — Yes. 3077. And in Glasgow?— Yes. 3078. To what number of years may your prac- tice and knowledge in Glasgow with regard to these maladies extend? — Twenty-seven years; but I may state that so far as general practice is con- Q 3 cerned. 126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 4 April 1882.] A. Patterson, m.d. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, cerned, I see a pjood deal of it. I was for six years in connection with the Royal Infirmary, and there 1 liad charjre oi' tlic Lock ward ibr males. 3079. AVas that jn-ior to the 27 years? — No, it was part of that time ; and it was partly con- temjiorary with my attendance at tlie Lock Hospital. 3080. And there are at the Royal I ^firmary from 120 to 150 male patients per annum? — There nre ; there are 15 beds. 308 L Besides that, you have had considerable private practice ? — Yes. 3082. Amongst all classes ? — Yes. 3083. Is it the general result of your obser- vation and knowledge, derived from those several sources, that the disease has decreased in Glasgow? — It is impossible for me or any one to give a statistical opinion ; but so i'ar as vou take the number of cases and the virulence of the disease, tliey have decreased in proportion to the number of people. 3084. You derive that opinion from the oppor- tunities afforded to yon not only bj' your ex- perience as surgeon to the Lock Hospital, but also from your connection witli the male ward at the infirmary, and also from you own private practice? — Yes ; generally. Taking all my means of observation together, that is the result. 3085. I think you also said that that was your observation as a student of contemporary medicine everywhere ? — Yes. 3086. Your belief is that the disease is dimin- ished both in number of cases and in severity of type ? — I cannot sjteak as to the number of cases in otlier jilaces; but as to the severity of type undoubtedly there has been a diminution every- where, I think. 3087. Is that the general experience of medical men ? — I think so. 3088. Then in your judgment there is no such prevalence of disease amongst the civil population as to warrant the institution of any such system as this of the Contagious Diseases Act ? — I do not believe it does any good, and I do not know why you should mstitute such a system. It has not lessened syphilis. 3089. At all events, there is no such increase and no such grountl for alarm by its ravages as to justify an experiment of the kind? — Most dis- tinctly not. We liave done without it so far very well. 3090. Do you treat out-patients of any sort at the Lock Hospital? — Very few. Sometimes a woman may bring in a child with hereditary syphilis and it is treated. 3091. You were asked whether there would not be others in Glasgow suffering from the disease who did not come to the liospital ; I suppose that all those who could get private treatment would not be likely, as a rule, to come to the hospital? — I should think not. 3092. You were asked whether a bad form of disease did or did not prevail amongst the higher classes compared with tliat which prevails amongst the lower classes ; have you any knowledge of any such distinction? — I do not know that I was asked that question in that way. 3093. Your attention was directed to the evidence given by Mr. Macnamara from Dublin ; I think you were first asked questions about the Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, disease existing; more or less amongst the lower classes ; and I understand you to say that there was not a severe type or a general ]>rcvalence of the disease amongst them. Tiien you were asked wliethcr there might not be amongst the higher class ; is there anj' evidence of that? — I referred to the bad sanitary condition of Dublin as being the probable cause of an outbreak of disease of a virulent type ; and then I was after- wards rei'erred to Mr. Macnainara's c\idence with regard to the type being virulent amongst the higher classes, and I answered tliat if the type of disease were bad at the time, and the parties contracted it from a case that was bad, they would themselves have a bad type. 3094. If you found it bad amongst the higher class, would you assume that they must have got it from a lower class? — Not necessarily. It is likely to assume in them the same type that is going about at the period. 3095. It might be aggravated by bad sanitary conditions ? — It might be. Mr. WilUam Fotoler. 3096. I only wish to bring out, if possible, more clearly your view, wliich I understood you to state ; that you are quite satisfied with the machinery now existing for tlie purpose of dealing with this disease in your city, and that you do not look i'or or desire any fresh legislative action to give you more power of detaining people, or of otherwise interfering with anyone's liberty, in order to reduce this disease? — Certainly not. You will not reduce disease by it, in my opinion. 3097. Do you consider that the giving proper hospital accommodation is the best machinery for grappling with the disease ? — Yes ; and treating the patients with every consideration. 3098. Treating the people with kindness and consideration instead of using duress? — Quite so ; that is my opinion. 3099. And I understood you to say that those patients were quite satisfied, when they were so treated, to remain, speaking generally, as long as you thought it best for them to remain ? — Yes, that is so 3100. And that without any special distinction of one class of women from anotlicr, but gene- rally? — Yes; the confirmed prostitutes are per- haps more willing than the others to stay. 3101. Do you suppose that that is from a sense of their need, or from their general poverty ? — I cannot tell you ; but some of them would stay very willingly if we would keep them altogether. 3102. You make them so comfortable, I sup- pose, when they are there ? — Better than they are at home- 3103. Then the machinery of the ordinary police and ordinary medical appliances, coupled with kindness, does all that you want to do ? — Yes. 3104. The police securing order, and you af- fording all possible medical assistance to those who are diseased ? — Quite so. 3105. And in that way you think that you ■ produce the greatest practicable diminution of the disease ?— I think that practically Glasgow has shown that. 3106. You think that the diminution of the disease 4 April 1882.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. A. Patteeson, m.d. 127 [ Continued. Mr. Fowler — continued, disease is so manifest that it makes it clear that your place is a good one ?■ — ■[ think so. 3107. And that you state as a professional man? — Certainly. Mr. Staiisfeld. 3108. You are, of course, familiar with the annual reports of the Lock Hospital? — Gene- rally so. 3109. I have here the report for 1881, in which I find this passage : " The work done is not merely confined to the cure of the physical dis- ease, but has been regularly the means, through the affectionate sympathy and gentle instruction of Mr. Michael Rowan and Mrs. Condra, of re- storing many of the patients to their relatives." That statement you are, no doubt, able to con- firm? — I believe that is true. 3110. You were asked whether it was a fair thing to compare the amount of vice or disease in a town like Glasgow, where there is a very small military contingent, with, for instance, a place like Portsmouth, where there is a large military and naval population, and you were invited to say that that was not a fair comparison; you are aware, are you not, that in the Govern- ment statistics on the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts the Government have been in the habit from year to year of comparing certain selected districts, fourteen of which they call pro- tected and fourteen unprotected? — So I under- stand. 3111- If you will look amongst the unprotected stations you find, do you not, that by far the highest figures of admissions for jjrimary sores amongst the military in those stations are in the largest towns, such as London, Manchester, and Dublin?— Yes. 3112. Therefore, am I not right in saying that if it is assumed to be natural that there should be less vice and less disease in a large city like Glasgow, than in a smaller place with a number of soldiers and sailors frequenting it, at any rate there is no such reason why there should be very much less vice and disease in Glasgow than, for instance, in Manchester ? — No. 3113. And that the difference in such cases as that must be sought for and accounted for by ascertaining the methods by which vice and dis- ease are combated in those places ? — Yes. 3114. I understand your evidence, therefore, to have meant this : you say that before the year 1870 there was much vice and much disease in Glasgow, but that in the year 1870 a system of police administration was adopted which tended rapidly and persistently to the reduction of brothels and of prostitutes, and that about the same time your Lock Hospital extended its accom- modation, so that never after the year 1870 did it refuse a single case? — No. 3115. And your argument, I understand, to be this : that there is no better means of diminishing either sexual vice or the diseases which are its consequence, than by such a police administration as you have in Glasgow, and by a Lock Hospital with abundance of accommodation, with kind treatment, and with no compulsion ? — That is so, so far as is known to me at present. 3116. You were asked some questions upon the evidence of Mr. Macnamara, of DubHn. Let 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, me refer you to the answer that he gave to me (No. 6597); and then I will ask you to read it and to state how far you agree with it ? — He is asked, " You would prefer to such legislation as the Contagious Diseases Act, a sufficiency of well- appointed Lock hospitals, capable of classifyino- the patients; the trajj, as you have said, well- baited with every comfort a,nd necessary appli- ance, and by kindness of treatment, and the sole power you would ask for would be to retain them till cured ; " and the answer is, " I would be per- fectly satisfied with that." So should I. 3117. The only difference, as I understand, between your view and Mr. Macnamara's is this: that your special experience in the Lock Hospital of Glasgow induces you to believe that you could do better without the power to detain patients compulsorily, than with it? — Distinctly. We tried that and failed. Chairman. 3118. You have spoken to a general diminution in Glasgow, during the last 10 or 12 years, of venereal disease ; does that diminution extend to gonorrhoea ? — To all venereal diseases. 3119. Do you think that gonorrhoea has diminished as much in intensity and in the number of cases, during the period, as syphilis ? — I cannot give you the statistical numbers ; but I think it has. 3120. Can you at all say whether many of the cases of girls and women which come into your hospital, are cases of first attack ? — Yes, they are,. 3121. Is the number of such cases large ? — Yes ; but I cannot pretend to give you the number ; I have no statistics with me. 3122. Do you think that one-half of the cases are cases of a first attack ? — I will not pretend to give you the number ; but many of them are. _ 31i!3. Do you take patients in if they fall into disease a second, third, or fourth time ? — Yes. 3124. Do you find many patients coming back to you with disease? — A good many. 3125. And coming back even as often as four times ? — Yes ; half a dozen times. 3126. Do you think there are many girls and women, who are carrying on clandestine, as opposed to public, prostitution, come voluntarily into your hospital, being induced to do so by its benefits? — They will come when they are diseased. 3127. Even the clandestine prostitutes? — Yes, I believe that even the clandestine prostitutes come- 3128. As I understand, so far as you are able to draw an inference, you attribute the virulence of the disease in Dublin to the dirty habits of the women and to the bad sanitary condition in which the women live ? — Yes, to that and all the sur- roundings ; to overcrowding and everything else that goes with it. 3129. You spoke awhile ago of occasionally coming across cases of giids where the hymen was imperforate, vircjines intacta; are those girls prostitutes ? — I cannot say that they are ; at any rate, they have not been long so. It is probably their first fall, and they have contracted disease immediately. 3130. They must indeed be mere novices as prostitutes when they are in that condition 1 — I think so. Q 4 3131. Do 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TUE 4 April 1882.] A. Patterson, m.d. l_Cuntiniied. Chairman — continued. 3131. Do women as a rule come in at an early sta^e of disease, or do tliey wait until their symptoms are more developed ? — The majority of them now come in whenever they are aware that they are diseased. 3132. Do they come in at an earlier stage in the course of the disease than they came in at in former years ? — I think they do. 3133. Have you yourself noticed a tendency to come in at an earlier stage ? — Yes. 3134. Have you received any assistance from the local police, or from the advice given by the magistrates in inducing women to come into your hospital ; I do not mean by compulsion ? — None whatever ; we have no connection with the police. 3135. Then how have the benefits of the hospital been brought under the notice of these women, and how have they been induced to come in? — They know that they get in without any trouble, and one tells the other. I should think that everybody in Glasgow knows of the exist- ence of the Lock Hospital ; it has been there for 75 years. 3136. It is not advertised, or anything of that sort?— No. 3137. "Will you take it upon yourself to say that as a rule the prostitutes of Glasgow, when diseased, go there ? — They have nowhere else to go ; and if they were badly diseased the whole of them would come. Some of them who are able to pay, I believe, can get attendance at home, and do so. 3138. But you are aware that there is a very large number of prostitutes in Glasgow? — Yes, probably. Chairman — continued. 3139. From your medical experience, and your knowledge of the district combined, what ])roportion of the women of the town and of the clandestine prostitutes of Glasgow likely to be diseased in the year do you think that number of 350 lepresents? — I cannot tell. No amount of experience would enable me to answer that question. 3140. You do not think that it represents all the women carrying on prostitution who would get diseased in the year? — Certainly not; but I hope you Avill not omit to look at the amount of the decline in the number of the patients coming into the hospital. That is the practical point, the very marked declinature which took place when the Police Act came into force. 3141. Do you think that so many of those 350 as are of the pi-ostitute, whether j)ublic or clan- destine, class, rej)resent a large proportion of the number of prostitutes of one kind or another that become diseased in the course of a year? — I think they represent ])roporlionatcly as large a number as the 598 that came in the year 18G9; I cannot put it in other way. 3142. Do the 349 that you spoke of represent different individuals, or may the number repre- sent 349 cases in which one individual comes in twice or oftener? — There arc a few that have been twice or three times ; I do not know how many. They have been in the hospital before, jjcrhaps three times ; but that is not in the course of a year. Mr. Osborne Moryan. 3143. The report states it correctly, does it not? — Yes. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS, ]29 Tuesday, I8th April lS8i MEMBERS PRESENT ; Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Shaughnessy. Mr. Stansfeld. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. Hanbury-Tracy. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr, Stephen Francis Rimbatjlt, called in ; and Examined. Mr, Stansfeld. 3144. Where do you reside? — At Maid- stone. 3145. What is your occupation there? — I am engaged as an Evangelist or town missionary. 3146. For how many years have you been so engaged in Maidstone ? — Twenty-eight years. 3147. The whole of that time in Maidstone, and in that capacity ? — Yes. 3148. Does your sphere of action include a part oF the town or the whole of the town ? — The whole of the town. 3149. Then T need hardly ask you whether in the course of those 28 years you have or have not become intimately acquainted with the whole of the town? — I have an intimate acquaintance especially with the poorer classes ; but I am acquainted, more or less, with the population generally. 3150. The whole, practically speaking, of your life has been devoted to this work ? — 1 had had eight years' previous experience as a City mis- sionary, so that I may say that my life has been pretty well devoted to the work. 3151. Your eight years' experience as a City missionary was where ? — In London. 3152. With regard to the number of prosti- tutes in Maidstone, comparing the present time with the period previous to the Contagious Diseases Acts, what is your experience ? — 1 be- lieve there is much less avowed or openly de- clared prostitution than there was previously to the Act being put into operation there. 3153. To what various causes would you attri- bute that diminution in avowed and open pros- titution ? — To some small extent to the operation of the Act, but more largely to the various agencies which have been called into existence since the operation of the Act. 3154. The number of such women in a given population would naturally, I presume, vary somewhat with the number of soldiers esta- blished there ? — Certainly. 3155. What are the figures with regard to the soldiers quartered at Maidstone? — At the pre- sent time, I think, there is about one-fourth of what we have had in the depot in past years. From inquiries I made in the barracks, I 0.75. Mr. Slmisfeld — continued, gathered that there were from about 120 to 130 soldiers, and I understand that we have had four times that number. 3156. When you say you have had four times that number, do I understand you to mean that the number of soldiers quartered in Maidstone was larger before the Acts than since? — Yes, 3157. Therefore, as far as their presence is concerned, their diminution in number might account for a certain diminution in the number of avowed prostitutes ? — I attribute it to some extent to that fact. 3158. Will you refer to a Paper which has been handed in to this Committee by Mr. Ralph Thompson; it is Appendix No. 4 of the Evi- dence of 1879, page 160, where you will find it stated that in 1866 the number of non-commis- sioned officers and men of the regular army serving in Maidstone was 410 ? — It was. 3159. Will you read the figures year by year to the latest year, 1878 ? — In 1867 the number was 497. 3160. What was the number in 1868?— Four hundred and twenty-six. 3161. And in 1869? — Four hundred and seventy-two. 3162. What was the number in 1870?— Two hundred and fifty-six. 3163. And in 1871 ?— Three hundred and forty-eiffht. 3164." And in 1872? — Three hundred and sixty-seven. 3165. What was the number in 1873 ?— Three hundred and twenty-one ; in 1874 there were 197 ; in 1875 there were 141 ; in 1876 there were 124, and in 1877 there were 139. 3166. AVhat was the number in 1878 ?— One hundred and forty-two. 3167. You attribute, I think, a certain pro- portion of the reduction to the etforts of bene- volent persons in reclaiming fallen women ; have those efforts been energetically carried on ?— They have been very energetically cai-rled on ; there has been very special attention given to the subject. 3168. You are speaking of Maidstone specially, are you not? — I am speaking of Maidstone. R 3169. Smce Lin MINUTK8 OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 April 1882.J Mr. S. F. RiMBAUi.T. \_Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — contimictl. 3169. Since when have those ao;encics come more especially into ojieration ? — Since the eoni- incncemcnt of the institution of the Act. 3170. Does that especial energy in prosecuting the work of reclamalion date froui the insdtutiou of the Act ? — Not quite, it is somewhat more recent ; I will mention, if you please, the various agencies. .3171. But I am not quite sure what is in your mind ; do I understand you as meaning that those reclamatory agencies were carried on with increased vigour in Maidstone, in consequence of the enactment of the statutes ? — I think not ; I do not think that would have much to do with it, if at all. 3172. Did those agencies exist before the Acts were passed? — I think not. 3173. As a matter of fact, these reclamatory agencies have started of late years? — They have. 3174. And they have worked with great vigour? — They have worked with very great vigour, and have been attended with remarkable success. 3175. You were about to name certain insti- tutions which have worked in that spirit and manner; will you now proceed to do so? — I would mention "first the Deaconess' Home, and the c.-tablislimcut of tem|)orary homes for girls. 3176. Is that called the Deaconess' Institution ? — The Deaconess' Home. 3177. It is not the same as the Deaconess' Instituiion, is it ?— I believe it is, but I am not prepared to say. Their work is not exclusively in relation to prostitutes, but they give themselves very largely to the cftbrt to reclaim fallen girls, and' have been very successful ; that is only one agency. I could mention others, if desired. 3178. Will you kindly do so? — We have a very earnest evangelist who has been successful in that direction ; a medical doctor who is also an earnest Christian, and is doing medical work ; he has been successful in reclaiming some. 3179. AVho is he ?— Dr. Smyth. 3180. Are there any other institutions besides the Deaconess' Home ? — We have a home for shop girls, and gii-ls out of situation, which must have some influence. 3181. It has some influence probably in pre- venting them from falling into evil ways? — Yes. 3182. But not in reclaiming them from evil ways into which they have fallen ? — No ; that is a separate thing. 3183. I think I understood you to say that to some small extent the Acts themselves had operated to reduce the number of avowed pros- titutes in Maidstone ; how do you think the Acts have operated in that direction ? — They may have had some deterring influence upon young girls ; I do not know that they have, but I believe that they would have. I do know of young girls who have had a great dread of being put upon the Register, and to avoid registration have left the town ; but they are living the same life elsewhere, or in the vicinity of Maidstone, coming occasionally to the town. 3184. To a certain extent, yon think the Acts have had a deterrent eff'ect ? — Undoubtedly. 3185. Which would ooerate, would it not, in Mr. Stansfeld — continued. two ways; it would cither drive a number of such girls out of the district, or into clandestine pros- titution? — Quite so. 318C. I understand you to say that you know of cases in your exjierienec where such girls have avoided the operation of the Acts, by taking themselves away from the place ? — I do. 3187. Not merely generally, but you actually know s|iccial cases? — I know of special cases, and I could i)articularise them, if needful. 3188. Do you mean going away and continuing the same life elsewhere? — I believe that is so. 3189. At any rate, leaving the town; and not, as far as any evidence which has come before your.self, having left it in consequence of the application of reclamatory agencies ? — Yes, that is so. 3190. Now, with reference to the number of registered prostitutes in Maidstone; though the number of avowed prostitutes has diminished, ai'e you prepared to accept the figure of Captain Harriss's returns? — Not by any means. 3191. Will you take that Report in your hands, which is the Report for 1880, presented to Parliament in 1881 ; what does tliat Report state the number of registered prostitutes in Maidstone for that year to be : you ^^•ill find it at column 16: " Total number of known common women on the 31st of December of each year." Upon the 31st of December 1880, do you find that the number was 21 ? — Yes, 21. 3192. What do you find in the previous year ? — Thirteen. 3193. And in the year before that ? — Sixteen. 3194. Do you believe in the accuracy of those numbers? — I do not. 3195. Take the year 1880, where the number of registered prostitutes is put at 21 ; have you any information which you can give us, from your own knowledge, as to the number of women practising prostitution in that year? — I keep a record of those that I visit, and of the i)oor gene- rally, and I have selected from that record the names and addresses, with notes appended, of no less than 64 prostitutes, and in many instances I have absolute j^roof, which I can produce if needlul, that they are such ; and I have satisfied myself in every case that they are what I declare them to be. 3196. Then the course of your ministrations leads you to address yourself to those women, amongst others, of the poor and neglected? — I make no difference ; in my ordinary work I visit generally from house to house, and I do not pass by the houses in which those poor girls live. 3197. And out of the list of those whom you have thus visited last year, I understand you have extracted the names and addresses of 64 whom you undertake to say are leading a life of in-ostitution ? — To the best of my belief; that includes both the registered girls and the nn- retiistered. Colonel DUjhy. 3198. That was the number for last year ? — I could scarcely say that exactly ; it is the record I keep that I have selected from. 3199. But SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 131 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. KiMBAULT. \_Continued. Mr. Stansfeld. 3199. But those figures would be deceiving if thev were the result of a long series of visits during a course of years? — It is not so ; it is the result of visitation in the last two or three years ; I have crossed out those who died. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 3200. Do you mean to say that there are now 64 persons to your belief carrying on the profes- sion of prostitution ? — I believe so, and many more ; I have not gone out of my way to find cases. 3201. I only wanted to know if you were speaking of the actual state of things existing at the present moment ? — That is all I can say. Mr. Stansfeld. 3202. What I understand you to say is this : that in your opinion at the present moment, and at any time during the last few years, there have not been less at any rate than 64 women prac- tising prostitution, instead of the number given in Captain Harris's return ?- — Quite so. 3203. Now, if we compare these numbers, your number is more than three times the largest number in recent years in Captain Harris's return ? — It is. 3204. If we take the year 1869, where Cap- tain Harris returns only 13 prostitutes, you would show a much larger proportion than that ? —Yes. 3205. Have you ever in public at Maidstone stated this belief of yours, that Captain Harris's return is quite unreliable in regard to the niun- ber ? — I did so at a meeting a few years back ; I made the statement at that time that I believed there were three times as many as were set down in the return. 3206. Was that the year 1876 when you made that statement? — It was in the year 1876, I think. 3207. Was your statement questioned in any way ? — It was called in question. 3208. By whom ? — The Acts' policeman ac- companied by his superior (I do not know the gentleman's name) from Chatham. 3209. W^hat did they do ? — The police officer called upon me, and asked me if that was a cor- rect report of what I said, and I said. Not exactly. I certainly believed I had said I could show as many as three times that number, but I should not be surprised if I had heard that there had been ten times that number. 3210. And the return to which you referred was the figure for the year 1876, was it not? — I think it was. 3211. Therefore your statement at that public meeting would have been, I suppose, in the following year, 1877 ? — I think it would. 3212. However, you were called upon by a member of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police force, and you adhered to your statement? — I adhered to my statement. 3213. What followed? — There was a remark made sarcastically that surely you must have other means of obtaining information than we have, evidently implying that there was a doubt about it. 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 3214. That they did not acquiesce in your view ? — That is so. 3215. Now, coming down a little to particulars, so as to test the value of your view ; do you know individually, and could you if it were ne- cessary, name cases of women who are not re- gistered, and who are practising, and who are well known as common prostitutes? — Certainly. 3216. You have in your hand a list of women whom you believe to be practising prostitution — I have. 3217. But you could, as I understand, give the Committee, if we desired to have that information, the names and addresses of a number of women who are publicly and generally known as prac- tising prostitution, and who yet are not regis- tered? — I could. 3218. Could you say how you know they are not registered ? — By conversation with the Acts police- man ; I have asked the question why such and such characters were not upon the books. 3219. Could you give the Committee any in- formation upon that subject ; could you refer us to any cases in which you have asked the ques- tion, and been informed why the women to whom you referred were not placed upon the register? — I can refer to three girls whom I have known for tlie last 15 years ; there is a family of girls, six or seven in all, three of whom have been generally well known to be prostitutes ; every third person in the town would know that they were prostitutes ; but they dress quietly, they go regularly to church, and they are gene- rally found in religious meetings of all kinds ; they conduct themselves demurely and quietly, and they do no work ; but it is well known that they are what I say ; their character is simply notorious throughout the town. 3220. I omitted to ask you this : have you not had a petition presented from M aidstone impugn- ing the accuracy of Captain Harris's return ? — I have. 3221. Was that in the year 1879?— Yes, m the year 1879. 3222. Was that petition signed by ministers of religion and other persons ? — Yes, by ministers of religion, and persons having a general know- ledge- of the town, and of tliat class of character ; I have a copy of it here [producing the same). 3223. Probably you signed that petition your- self ? — I signed that petition myself. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 3224. To whom was that petition addressed ? — To the House of Commons. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 3225. Have you that petition with you ? — I have. ( The same ivas handed in.) Mr. Stansfeld. 3226. Now, in the case of these particular three girls to whom you referred, you raised the question, as I understand, to the Contagious Diseases Acts' police, why they were not upon the register? — I asked the question why it was that girls in that station aspiring to gentility were not upon the books, whilst the common ones were B 2 registered ; 132 MIXIJTKS OF EVIDEXCK TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. lllMBAULT. r Continued. Mr. Slansfcld — continued. rc<'istcrcil ; and lie answered that it would bo ditticult to f^et a case against tliem, they were so respectable; I asked, is it not notorious that these "•iris have been IVcquently in the otHcer's quarters in the barracks. 3227. But did you understand, by " fictting a case against them," producing evidence which would be admissible in a court of law of the fact of prostitution ? — It would be simply impossible, I suppose, to obtain such evidence as that. I do not know what he meant. 3228. Are you sufficiently familiar with the way in which the registration is managed to be able to answer the question I now put to you ; if not, decline to answer it. Are you, or not, aware, as a matter of fact, that almost all the women whose names are j)ut upon the register are ])laced there without such evidence ? — I am quite aware of that. I am quite uwarc of what power the officer possesses in order to bring those girls under his jurisdiction : and I said to him, '"' Surely you are not obliged to prove that these girls are prostitutes when they are so notorious; you have simply to summon them before the mao'istrates, and the girls must show themselves not to be prostitutes ; it does not devolve upon you to prove it." He denies that fact, and has denied it repeatedly ; that is as far as I can under.-»tand the Act. 3i!29. Do you know of other cases of girls can-ying on sly prostitution ? — I do. 3230. Amongst those cases is there not a class of Avomen who profess to cohabit only with one man, thereby escaping the registration, and yet are common to many? — 1 have known instances of women cohabiting with men ; sometimes they marry, but more generally they simply cohabit, hoping by that means to avoid registration. 3231. You will find, in Captain Harris's re- turn, the number of women who are supposed to have entered into the profession as being married, namely, seven ; now, do all those women who marry leave the profession of prostitution ? — Cer- tainly not. 3232. That is within your knowledge ? — It is within my knowledge that girls have married soldiers, or married common men, who do not leave the profession. 3233. At any rate I presume you would mean this, that you have known eases of women who are practising prostitution who nave married soldiers or other persons, and continued the practice? — They continued the practice. I do not say that they have in all cases avoided regis- tration ; that I am not aware of, because I do not know all the girls who are on the register. 3234. Does the list which you have in your hand of 64 persons who are practising prostitu- tion contain the names of any married women ? — It does. 52.35. Of how many ?— Of 17, I think they are marked ofl; there is a separate list of married women. 3236. "Would those be cases of women first of all quitting a life of prostitution and tlien marry- ing ? — No, I am not including that class at all. These are small tradesmen's wives, I think, and artizans' wives who, with the knowledge of their husbands in many instances, and in other in- stances without the knowledge of their husbands, Mr. Stansfdd — continued. ]>ractise jn'ostitution for the sake of obtaining dress. I iiave confidence that this list might be very largely extended indeed, but 1 have put down only those cases that 1 could substantiate, I think, in evidence. 3237. Is there less open solicitation in Maid- stone than there was before the Act was put into operation? — There is less, certainly. 3238. To what do you attribute that fact ? — The regular prostitutes are not so much seen iu the streets; we do not see them about so much, except about the public-houses where they resort. 3239. The registered girls are fewer iu num- ber? — The registered girls arc decidedly fewer in number, and they do not perambulate the streets as they used to do. 3240. Do they congregate iu particular public- houses ? — They congregate in particular public- houses. 3241. And the clandestine prostitutes who, according to your evidence are in the great majority, would naturally conduct their business with considerably more circumspection as far as outward notice is concerned? — They would natu- rally. 3242. To avoid coming under the Act ? — Yes, to avoid coming under the Act. 3243. "Will you give the Committee your opinion and experience upon this question, viz., the eft'ect of the administration of the Acts on juvenile depravity in Maidstone ? — I think it has had a very small effect, if any; I believe there is no town in the kingdom where there is more juvenile depravity and precocity in vice. 3244. Do you think it has stimulated and in- creased juvenile depravity ? — I do not say that, but I do not think that it has prevented it. 3245. With regard to clandestine prostitution, if I understand you correctly, you gave some figures which were not, you thought, exhaustive, of the amount of clandestine prostitution ; but did you not express the opinion that clandestine prostitution has been increasing in Maidstone of late years ? — I believe it has. 3246. You have had, I am afraid, in the course of your experience to witness, and have had evidence before you of considerable juvenile de- pravity ? — I have. 3247. Have you or not noticed that more of late years than before ? — I certainly have. 3248. But you are not prepared to say that the amount has really increased ? — It is quite my belief that juvenile depravity has increased of late years ; it has come under my notice more possibly, but that is my general impression from my own experience, and from conversation with the clergy and others of the town. 3249. Have you observed indecent conduct in language on the part of young girls and boys? — I have ; it is fearfully prevalent. 3250. And a kind of novel precocity in juvenile depravitv ? — A wonderful amount; an incredible amount of precocity in vice ; I attribute it to many causes which 1 can specify. 3251. "Will you briefly state to what causes you attribute that mainly ? — There are a great variety of corrupting influences ; I have a night school for boys ; they are biggish lads generally, about 17 or 18 years of age, most of them, but some SELECT COMMITTEE OS CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 133 18 April 1882.J Mr. S. F. RiMBAULT. \_Conlinued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, some younger; I have overheard them conversing, and have found out from those boys that there were certain women who, for the sake of their pence, would expose themselves to those lads ; and there is a man living in the town who will exhibit a peepshow of pictures and indecent pho- tographs to boys for their pence, and sometimes I have known him to exhibit a naked girl. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 3252. Do you mean to exhibit a photograph of a naked girl? — No, the girl herself; the man has had three or four of those girls, the girl being pimply made an exhibition of to the boys for their pence. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 3253. But surely that could be put down by the police, could it not? — The man has only just returned to the town, but I mean to take precau- tions to put down the exhibition; the boys of a respectable tradesman were inveigled into the house recently, but the father foolishly made a noise and raised the neighbourhood, instead of having the man quietly proceeded against and convicted. Mr. Sta/isfeld. 3254. I understand that your impression is that juvenile depravity in Maidstone and its vicinity is on the increase ; I wish to know if you can express any opinion founded upon your observation and experience upon this question, how far the operation of the Acts may have had an influence in that direction ? — I hardly know how it can have had any influence, but 1 simply mention the fact ; I do not know that the Act has any effect either way ; I do not think it has had any eftect in preventing it, at all events. 3255. Xow what have you to tell the Com- mittee about the number of brothels in Maid- stone ? — I do not know of many brothels. I hardly know what may be designated a brothel ; there are many houses where two or three girls live together ; I do not know whether you call that a brothel. Those houses where five or six used to live together, have been broken up and the girls dispersed, and they are now living sepa- rately, or two together in lodgings. 3256. Taking Captain Harris's Keport, and referring to the year 1879, do you find according to that report, that there was one public-house and one beerhouse in Maidstone, where prosti- tution was carried on ? — Yes. 3257. Does that fact accord with your own knowledge ? — By no means. 3258. "What should you say of the year 1879? — I know of eight houses, two public-houses, and four beershops where there could be little or no question about the character of those houses. 3259. That makes six, but you said you knew of eight ?— Yes, altogether. 3260. In the year 1879, according to Captain Harris's figures, there was only one public-house and one beerhouse in iVIaidstone where prostitu- tion was carried on ; I understand you do not agree with that either ? — I do not ; at that time there were two houses I put down ; of one of them the landlord has been fined 10 /., and ever 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, since I have known it it has been a notorious house ; it is a house abutting upon business premises, and I have gone into the business premises, and from them I could see ; and the people occupying them told me they had fre- quently seen men and women go in and pull the blind down and turn the key in the door ; that was a matter of frequent occurrence. 3261. That accounts for one of the iwo? — That house has lost its license, but previously to that time it was a notorious house. 3262. Now with reference to the beerhouses, do 3'ou know of more than one in the year 1879? — Yes, I knew of four at that time. 3263. Therefore, you knew two public-houses and four beerhouses, making six ? — Yes. 3264. And not eight? — I have put down the names of the public-houses and beerhouses that I have suspected at the present time, but I hardly know about that time in particular. 3265. I will deal first with the year 1879, and then I will bring you to the present time. In the year 1879 Captain Harris gives one public-house and one beerhouse in Maidstone ; I understand you to say that in the year 1879 you knew more of such houses which were conducted for the pur- pose of prostitution ? — Yes. 3266. You have told the Committee now of six, two public-houses and four beerhouses ; are you speaking of your observation of those houses in the year 1879 .'—Yes. 3267. Now we will come to the present time, and see how you distinguish that from the past ; at the present time what is Captain Harris's re- turn ? — Only one public-house, and no beer- shop. 3268. That is for the year 1880 ?— Yes. 3269. But what have you to say as to the year 1880? — 1 knew of four public-houses at that time which I believed, upon sufficient evidence to satisfy me, to be used for the purpose of prosti- tution. I have taken very great pains, not only from inquiry, but from absolute watching of the house night after night, Saturday night especially and market nights, Thursday nights to verify my opinion, and I have seen sufficient to justify me in it ; I have overheard men and women haggling about the price, and then one has gone in and the other has followed, showing distinctly the cha- racter of the house. 3270. Then with regard to beerhouses? — I know three at the present time. 3271. But we are speaking of the year 1880? — In the year 1880 I knew of three beershops, of which I had not the smallest doubt about their character. 3272. And how many public-houses? — Five public-houses. 3273. In Captain Harris's return the number of private brothels is also stated ; does the number of private brothels stated by him repi-esent the number of private houses in which prostitution is carried on .' — Of course it depends upon what is understood by a " brothel ;" the girls are living generally now separately, perhaps one or two together ; I only know of really one brothel in Maidstone. 3274. Will you refer to Captain Harris's figures on page 23 of his return, column 12, R 3 headed 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. RlMBAULT. [ Continued. Mr. ^/a/w/tW— continued, headed " Private houses in which women resided and practised prostitution." Now tlierc is no question there as to tlie name " brothel ;" what are the numbers given by Captain Harris from the year 1876 to 1880; in 1876 Captain Hai-ris gives tiie number as four? — Four. 3275. "Wiiat is the number in 1877 ? — Six ; in 1878 tliere were six, the ne.xt year five, and in 1880 the number was seven. 327G. Do you thinic tliose figures are a correct representation of tiie number of houses in which women reside and carry on prostitution ? — Cer- tainly not. 3277. You think the number is considerably more ? — Certainly. 3278. From what source of information do you say that, from your own observation? — From my own observation. 3279. You have, in the course of giving your evidence, referred to a list of your own ; I pre- sume that that list would be quite inconsistent with the figure which Captain Harris has given in his report ? — It would be. 3280. Do you credit the figures of juvenile prostitution which Captain Harris has given in his return ? — I do not ; I deny them altogether. 3281. "Will you take these figures for a series of years; at page 18, according to this return, there was not, in ] 880, a single prostitute under 18 years of age ? — That is so. 3282. Do you believe that ? — I do not. 3283. According to this return, since the year 1870 there never was a prostitute in Maidstone, if all the prostitutes were registered under the age of 10 ; do you believe that? — I do not. 3284. And only one under the age of 17 ; do you believe that? — I do not. 3285. Now, you have referredtothe Deaconess' Institution, which rescues and reclaims fallen women and girls; can you give the Committee anv information as to the ages of girls who are rescued by that institution? — I can only men- tion the number of cases ; but I have a letter from the Lady Principal of the Deaconess' Home, in which she states that several cases under 16 have come witliin her knowledge. 3286. What is the date of that letter ?— It Is quite recent {^the letter was handed to the honour- able Member). 3287. Was this letter in answer to the inquiry you made of her? — Yes: 1 made the inquiry, and she sent that letter in answer, a fortnight ago. 3288. In that letter, does the Lady Principal state that, to her knowledge, there have been in Maidstone several cases of girls under 16 who have been on the streets there, and have been rescued by the Deaconess' Home ? — She does ; I have another letter also, if I may refer to it, from Dr. SLnyth, the medical Evangelist to whom I have referred, and he also states the fact that two girls practising prostitution under the age of 17 have come under his knowledge. 3289. Did he send you that letter which you have in your hand with the view to its produc- tion before this Committee ? — He sent me this letter yesterday, with the view to its being used. 3290. Will you read that letter ?— " Maid- stone, 17th April 1882. — -I have been engaged in ]\Ir. Stansfeld — continued. Evangelistic work in this town for about seven years, and have some experience of the moral c mdition of the eomnumity, and desire to say that the statement, that there are no young- women under 17 leading the lives of prostitutes in Maidstone, is utterly untrue. Two such have come under my notice lately, who attend my meetings and professed reformation of life." 3291. Can you tell the Committee, of your own personal and individual knowledge, of cases of girls under the age of 16 who are leading a life of sin ? — In this list which I have here I have marked the cases under that age, and given the names and some particulars in reference to them. 3292. That is to say, girls under the age of 16 and 17?— Yes, when pursuing a life of sin; I have nine cases of girls whom I have known to be living lives of prostitution under the age of 17 ; there are one or two of them at the present time more advanced in life, but they have been upon the streets, to my knowledge, for some time. 3293. You say that in that list you have nine cases of girls under 17 practising prostitution ; I presume you mean nine cases of women or girls practising prostitution within the last two or three years, and who commenced before the age of 16 or 17 ? — Not exactly ; most of them are at the present time under 17 years of age, but there is one of tliem, for instance, who is 22 years of age now, but she has been upon the town to my knowledge for eight years, and she is a registered girl. There is one of only 13 years of age that I found in a brothel. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 3294. Is she only 13 at the present time ? — She is only 13 at the present time. Mr. Stansfeld. 3295. In what year was this poor child of 13 practising prostitution ? — At the present time. 3296. Do you mean to Fay she is only 13 now ? — So I am informed. 3297. How long has she been practising pros- titution ? — A few months ; she was living away from home, and the ladies in the Deaconess' Home have taken a wonderful interest in the girl, and have tried to reclaim her, but there is no doubt about the fact. 3298. Does not she look more than her age? — No, she does not look more than her age ; she Is a mere child to look at. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 3299. That girl would not be Included In the return of 1880 ? — No, of course not. Mr. iStansfeld. 3300. Have any efforts been made to reclaim her ?— There have been ; she has now returned to her home, but it is a very wretched home, so it Is not saying much, but still she has returned home after living in a very questionable house. 3301. You do not give this as a case which ought to have been upon the register of 1880, because It could not have occurred till 1881 ? — No. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 135 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. RiMBAULT. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. No, certainly not ; I merely mention this as one of the nine cases I have marked off here. 3302. As an instance of precocious depravity? — Exactly. 3303. Now with respect to the rescue and re- clamation of women, would you refer to Captain Harris's Keport, page 4, column 13, "The num- ber of prostitutes returned to friends ;" do those numbers to your mind truly represent the number of women who have given up prostitution ; are all the women who are recorded as returned to friends, after pas^sing through the Lock Hospital, necessarily reclaimed ? — Not by any means. 3304. That would very much depend, would it not, upon the character of their friends? — Very much indeed; I believe it is in many cases, because those poor girls have had such wretched homes and parents that they have turned out upon the streets; and therefore going back to those wretched homes may be only a renewing of the old course o!' life. 3305. Therefore what you would say is that a girl going back to her home and friends is not at all conclusive evidence that she has left the prac- tice of prostitution ? — Not at all. 3306. She may not have returned to the brothel from which she came, but she may have continued the vicious practice elsewhere ? — That I have known in many instances. 3307. Often, I presume, to escape and evade registration? — That is the purpose of it. 3308. You have known cases of that kind ? — I have known such cases. 3309. Then some again have married, but you tell us from your own knowledge that some of these women have continued the practice of pros- titution after marriage ? — That is so. 3310. Can you tell us, since May 1880, how many prostitutes have been rescued in Maidstone by means of the Deaconess' Institution and sent to other permanent homes or situations ? — Thirty- nine. 3311. Has that been done with or without aid from the Contagious Diseases Acts police ? — There are three cases included in which the Con- tagious Diseases Acts policeman- was concerned in introducing the girls to the lady. 3312. That is three cases out of the thirty- nine ? — Yes. 3313. Have the voluntary elForts of yourself and others in Maidstone to reclaim women been attended with much success ? — With great suc- cess of late years. 3314. Of late years those exertions have been redoubled, have they not ? — They have. Pre- viously to the Act we had no Home, and there was no means of getting girls into a different way of life. If a girl was disposed to forsake her evil ways it was attended with the expense and inconvenience of bringing her to London ; but now we have ladies locally established who give themselves specially to this work, and it is attended with the best results. 3315. How long has this Deaconess' Home been established ? — These ladies have been resi- dent in the town six or seven years, but they have only had a Home for two or three years. 3316. The figures you give us of prostitutes rescued begin from 1880, therefore may I take it 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, that the ladies commenced in 1880 ? — No, they commenced some two or three years before that, but they greatly extended then- operations about that time. 3317. Upon what class of women would you expect reclamatory efforts to have the best effect, ujjon the registered or upon the unregistered? — I consider the registered girls are very hopeless, and that any attempts to reclaim them would be very hopeless. 3318. Have you observed a distinct difference between the two classes ? — A very distinct differ- ence. 3319. The registered women are older, are they not ? — They are older. 3320. They seem to be more bound to their profession? — They seemed at first to object to the working of the Acts, but now they seem to have become reconciled to it, and to have be- come hardened to it. 3321. Now, have you ever applied to the Contagious Diseases Acts police to help you in the work of reclamation ? — I have. 3322. And with what result ? — I have gene- rally received a refusal ; I believ^g the man that we have is a very careful man and a very effi- cient officer, and does his best in the very dis- agreeable work he has to do; and we under- stand each other perfectly well; but when I .have asked him for co-operation, as for example, when I have had a midnight meeting of the girls and have asked him to give me a list be- cause he might know some that I did not know, he has declined to do so, acting under instruc- tions from his superior. I believe personally he would have done so, but he was acting under in- structions, and in all cases where I have asked him for co-operation he has declined to give it. 3323. Not feeling himself at liberty to do so? — He has said that he was not at Hbei'ty to do so. 3324. As a matter of fact, have you received assistance from the Contagious Diseases Acts policemen in your work?— As a matter of fact I have. 3325. To any great extent? — Not to any great extent. 3326. In the three cases you have referred to which went to the Deaconess' Institution, the Contagious Diseases Acts police did give some assistance ? — They did. 3327. Did you have such assistance given to you? — No; I conceive that the officers might render me important help, but I have had no help at all ; that which I have referred to has been a matter simpily between the ladies and this man. 3328. With regard to the effect of tlie Acts upon the morality of the men and the practices and habits of the young men, have you any evidence to give the Committee ? — Yes, I have. 3329. Do you consider that the supposed safe- guard from physical evil offered by the Acts has had a demoralising influence. I remember that soon after the institution of the Acts we had a public meeting, and I am quite sure that those young men who attended were demoralised by the information they received at the time. From conversation with them I judged that those K 4 young 136 ■MTNTTFS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUF. THE 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. lilMBAULT. \_CoudnHed. Mr. 5/a7J.«/eW— continued, younp; men, men of frond position, were i)ut in ])Ossession of information which tiioy did not l>c- fore possess, and tiiey wore fjrcatly encouraiied by it. 1 was iicrf-.-clly astonislicd hy the effect of it. I have a letter from a gentleman, an em- ployer of labour, who confirms my impression upon that point. .S.3:i(>. AVhat is the date of that letter? — I am afraid the writer has omitted to put the date ; but, at any rate, it was only received the other day. ':5331. That letter confirms your opinion? — This is a letter from an employer of labour, a recent town councillor, confirming my own opinion. 3332. Does he confirm your opinion from his owne.xpericncc and observation, or docs he merely report wliat people have said to him ?— From his own exjicricnce and observation of those in his employ, he has found that the operation of the Acts has been most prejudicial to the morals of young men, particularly to apprentices in his employ. 3333. Will you read the letter ? — " Mr. Kim- bault, Maidstone. Contagious Diseases Acts. Sir,— In answer to your inquiry, I can only say that I was a bi^iever in this Act as a means to prevent immorality in a large degree ; but; from observation I am thoroughly convinced of its in- adequacy to cope with the evil, and I believe that vice is encouraged in a large degree by the Act. I have overheard conversations among my own men, and especially the younger ones, viz., the apprentices, in which they have argued the safety provided by the examinations, and this has resulted in several cases of a most disastrous character in my own shops, and I am convinced, from my observation as house agent and builder, having to visit a groat number of houses, that there is an increase of prostitution in this town of a cha- racter which cannot be dealt with by these Acts, and I shall by all means in my power agitate for their repeal. — Yours truly, Hi-nr;/ Bridf/e." 3334. Can you say, speaking of the state of opinion in Maidstone, that that opinion of the demoralising effect of the Acts is largely enter- tained among the respectable people who reside there? — I do not know that I can say that ; I find that there are so few who seem to understand anything at all about it. 333.5. You cannot tell the Committee what the nfcneral opinion amongst the more respectable classes is ? — I cannot ; of course I know that there is a very strong feeling amongst the par- ticular circle of my own friends, but I cannot say that it is generally shared. 3336. bo you find that feeling largely existing among the religious bodies of Maidstone ? — I find that the religious bodies are generally opposed to the Acts. 3337. And probably upon that ground ? — Yes ; probably upon that ground. 3338. And with a specific knowledge possibly upon the hygienic question ; but judging it from a moral j)oint of view ? — Judging it from a moi'al point of view. 3339. And, wifch regard to the others, you have spoken of a great number who do not seem to have any opinion at all upon the subject ; where you found no opinion, you would infer that there was no knowledge, I suppose ?— Undoubtedly. Mr. Stansfv/d — continued. 3340. And no opinion followed as a matter of course ? — I have been surprised to find that persons who ought to have understood it, clergy- men, for example, have confessed to me that the thing was comparatively unknown. Dr. Farrjiiharson. 3.S41. You told the Committee that a cor.sidcr- ablc diminution of open vice had taken ])lace in Maidstone by various agencies called into o|)era- tiou since the Acts have been established ? — Yes. 3342. Could you explain why those agencies have acted with so much greater vigour since the Acts have come into operation than had been the case i)reviously ? — I cannot. I only know that it is the fact. I do not know whether it may not be perhaps that more attention has been called to that class of unfortunates since the application of the Act. 3343. At all events, it is since the Act has been established that you have observed this great diminution of open vice? — Yes, it is since the Acts have been established; but I do not say " this great diminution," because, although there has been a diminution, yet from what I see in walking through the streets, there is a great amount of depravity and open solicitation. Things arc still bad enough, though there has been an improvement. 3344. I thought I gathered fi-om your evidence that the machinery of the Acts had tended to this improvement ? — I do not think I said that. 3345. You said the number of troops in Maidstone had largely diminished ? — It had largely diminished. 3346. Has the population of Maidstone in- creased ? — Yes, the population of Maidstone has increased. 3347. Do you think that the population of Maidstone have become more immoral than they used to be ? — I do not know about that ; I do not know that things have materially improved, but I would not say the people have become more immoral. 3348. Then I suppose the increase in the number of prostitutes would be just sufficient to meet the wants of the increased population of the town of Maidstone, that would be sufficient to make up for the smaller number of troops ? — I do not quite follow your question. 3349. Assuming that the number of troops has decreased, but that the population has increased, would you consider that the increased amount of prostitution is more than may be accounted for by the increase of the population? — I think the increase of clandestine prostitution is out of pro- portion to the increase of population. 3350. Do you think the Acts have stimulated vice in Maidstone? — I do not know that they have stimulated vice in Maidstone, but they have certainly occasioned more secret vice. 3351. You do not think it probable that the young men in Maidstone know much about the Acts; I suppose many of them would never have heard about them ? — I think they understand them pretty well. ' 3352. You aELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 137 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. RiMBAULT. [ Continued. Dr. Farquluirson — continued. 3352. You had a meeting, had you not, at ■which they were discussed ; what would you say has been the effect of that meeting ? — ^I found that after that meeting the matter was talked about by young men, and young men of whom I had expected better things, gloried that such an Act had been introduced by the Govern- ment. 3353. But the larger number of young men who were not at the public meeting would know nothing about the Acts ? — They would not, ex- cept by conversation. 3354. They would not have the opportunity of indulging in any reflection about the fancied security which came from the Acts ; they would not have their tendencies to vice stimulated by the fancied security of Acts of which they knew nothing ; is not that your opinion ? — 1 think they understand the Acts generally. 3355. But I think you said there had been an increase in vice in Maidstone, because the young men fancied that they could indulge in vice in consequence of the Acts with greater security •than they could have done before? — I do not know that I said that arose from the Acts. 3356. But even gi-anting, for the sake of argu- ment, that young men go to vice with greater facility on account of the fancied secui'ity afforded by the Acts, how does that tally with the great increase of clandestine prostitution ; because the young men calculate upon a fancied security, from the fact of the women being exa- mined, the clandestine women, as you know, are not examined ; they have no clean bill of health to show ? — That is so undoubtedly. 3357. I think you are of opinion that the Acts have had a deterrent effect upon prostitution ? — I do not know an instance of it, but I can con- ceive that it is possible. 3358. Theoretically, is it possible ? — Yes, theoretically. 3359. You think it might deter young girls who are just upon the verge of prostitution? — Yes, I know that young girls have a great horror of being put upon the register. 3360. And that would deter young girls just beginning ? — Undoubtedly it would. 3361. Those girls who leave the town in order to avoid, as you say, the registration, might pro- bably be supposed to leave the town with the view of giving up the profession of prostitution ; is it in accordance with your experience that they do so ? — I know two cases of girls who left the town with the view to avoid being put upon the register ; but on Saturday week I spent some hours, between 8 and 11 o'clock, in walking the streets to see as much as possible, and I observed one of these girls, who assigned as her reason for leaving the town the fact that the Acts policeman had told her that if she did not mend her manners she would be put upon the register ; therefore she left the town forthwith ; and her mother said she did not know how or where she was living, or what had become of her. I followed this girl and traced her for two hours, and saw her conduct, and I have no doubt of her being a prostitute. I had known her to be in a brothel previously. I found this girl -was living out of the town, but came to and fro, I have no 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued. doubt whatever for the practice of her pro- fession. 3362. Have you known cases in which girls have given up public prostitution to go into clan- destine prostitution, from the deterrent influence of the Acts ? — No, I do not know that, except that those who have married avoided the register in that way, or by cohabiting with men. 3363. But you were asked by Mr. Stansfeld whether girls had gone off the register to clan- destine prostitution ? — I do not know of such cases. 3364. In fact, it would be very difficult, would it not, for a girl who had been once upon the register, so to conduct herself afterwards as t» avoid being put upon the register by the police ? — No, I do not think it would be difficult ; she might cohabit. 3365. She might cohabit with one man ? — Yes j but still from what I have noticed of them, I believe they are still common girls all the same. 3366. But the woman who cohabits with one man would not come upon the register ? — No, that is so. 3367. Now with reference to the great dis- crepancy between the number of prostitutes registered, viz., 21, and those that you have yourself observed and listed, viz., 64 ; what kind of evidence do you go upon to find out that those girls are practising prostitution ? — That is a very wide question, but I have gone individually into the cases, and the facts have come under my knowledge. For instance, a young man in my Bible class was inveigled away by a mill girl ; many of those mill girls are clandestine prosti- tutes ; they have very small wages, and they increase their income by a common life. 3368. But generally speaking does your evidence come from the girls themselves ? — No, I get it in different ways ; for instance, this young man in question used to spend his even- ings with the girl remaining with her as late as II o'clock at night, and there was a bed in the room; the mother was living there, and the mother discovered them, and he confessed to me that he had had improper connection with the girl. 3369. In almost every case does the evidence come to you as conclusively as that ? — In many cases it does. 3370. How do those girls manage to elude the observation of the Contagious Diseases Acts police? — I do not know how they manage it ; I have called the attention of the police to girls who are perfectly notorious, but without result. 3371. Their sole reason, as they allege, for not putting the girls under the operation of the Act, is that the evidence is not sufficient ? — That is so, but in one case a girl confessed to me her way of life. The girls, in this case, came from a family whose parents were dead ; they lived alone, and they received young men into their place, and kept unreasonable hours, until two or three in the morning ; in fact the character of the girls was perfectly notorious, yet the policeman said he could not find a case auainst them. 3372. That shows that, at all events, the police are very desirous to avoid any possibility of mis- take ? — I do not know about the police generally, but I certainly think that if our policeman errs S at 138 MI.VVTE8 OF EVIPENCE TAKEN HEFORE THE It: April \xi<2. Mr. S. F. RlMBAlLT. [^Continued. Dr. Fcirquhiirson - corxXmweHi. at all in the discharge of his duty, it is froui an excess o{ caution. .3373. That is a very high testimonial from lino in ynur position ? — He is a %'ery decent man, dwing his work as well .as he can. 3374. Now what kind ot girls arc those whom ynu have described as clandestine ])rostitute3 ; are they milliners, or what ? — Many of them are mill gii'ls. 3375. And not living altogether by prostitu- tion ? — Xo. not living altogether by prostitu- tion. 3376. Are they living with only one man ? — iNi>. most of them are living in a front room, with a bed in it, where they receive gentlemen. 3377. Now with reference to those girls whom you said your policeman would not bring under the operation of the Acts, was there any other evidence against them except tlieir having been seen to go into the barracks ? — They are known to all the fast young men. and the fact of their being in the otficers" quarters is a matter of notoriety ; I have had it confirmed to me by those connected witli tiie barracks, and upon the best evidence. There has been a great deal of scandal about these girls. 3378. Is there a general hospital in Maid- stone ? — There is. 3379. Do they admit venereal cases there ? — I do not know. 3380. You do not know whether any large number of girls apply for treatment there as cor- roborative evidence of your view upon that piiint ? — I am not aware that they do. .i381. I did not quite gather how you con- nected the increase of juvenile depravity with the Contagious Diseases Acts? — I do not know that I did so connect it. I only say that I do not know that they have had any effect upon it. 3382. Would not the opportunity of the young to learn vice be diminished by not seeing it before their eyes ? — I do not know that it is so nnicli that, but the language of the youth of the town and their conduct is something dreadful. 3383. I think you stated that there was much greater difficulty in reclaiming the registered women than the clandestine ? — That is so. 3364. T suppose the reason of that would be that the registered women would have been longer on their profession, and would naturally therefore be more hardened against any reclaim- ing influences ? — That would no doubt be the reason. 3385. You stated that you had not received very much assistance from the efforts of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts police : but I presume they are under a difficulty about giving up the names ; the police could not give up the names of the registered women without special autho- rity ? — I suppose not. 3386. And that would interfere with their desire to assist you, would it not ? — I stated that if the object of the Acts was benevolent and reclamatorv, they might by their communication with those engaged like myself as evangelists in the town, do a vast amount of good by assisting in young girls being reclaimed ; but I have had no assistance of that kind. 3387. We have had evidence from vourself Dr. Farquharson — continued, that the police do assist, as for example, by call- ing the attention of the ladies to the conduct of those girls whom you mentioned? — They are taken to the Deaconess' Home. 3388. And also there are a number of ladies connected with the working of Lock hos])itals ? — That is so. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 3389. I understand from the general tenor of your evidence, that you are ol' o]jinion that the Acts have not been carried out with sufficient strictness: would that be so? — I do not know about that ; I merely spoke with regard tn the man who is charged with that function, saying that he is a verv cautious and respectable man of his kind and class. 3390. -May I put it in this way, that if he errs at all, it is upon the side of cautiou ? — That is so. 3391. Have you seen the instructions given to the metropolitan police as to interfering with women in the streets ? — I do not know that I" have 3392. Are you aware that the nietro])olitan police who carry out these Contagious Diseases Acts, are instructed not to interfere with any woman unless they have such evidence of her prostitution as would enable them to establish a case against her before a magistrate ? — Yes, I am aware of that. 3393. Therefore, of course, before they can interfere with any woman and bring her under the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts, they must reasonably satisfy themselves that they would be able to make out a case against her before a justice of the peace ; would that be so? — Yes. 3394. That might account for some of the cases to which you referred not being taken up by the police ? — Yes ; but some of those cases to which I referred are cases in which there would be no difficulty in establishing the fact. 339-5. You think that evidence such as you could command, at any rate, if adduced before a magistrate, would at once induce the magistrate to act against those women under the powers of the Act ; would that be so ? — Yes. 3396. To that extent you would say the police are slack or remiss in discharging their duties ? — I do not object to that. 3397. You used the term clandestine prosti- tutes ; may I ask you to deHne what you mean by clandestine prostitutes ? — I simply mean those who succeed in avoiding the operation of the Act. 3398. That is to say you would apply that term to a woman who, if the Act were pi-operly can-ied out, would be registered, but who in point of fact is not ? — That is so. 3399. You do not apply it to a woman living with one man ? — Certainly not. 3400. You wotild apply it to a woman who goes about soliciting prostitution but is fortu- nate enough to evade the clutches of the police ? — That is so. 340 1 . Adopting that definition, would it not be impossible for many of those clandestine pros- titutes SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 139 18 April 1881.] Mr. S. F. RiMBAULT. r Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, dtutes to escape contracting disease ? — No, I do not know that. 3402. May I ask you how you account for the fact that those clandestine prostitutes who only differ from the registered prostitutes in the fact that they are not found out by the police, not only escape being found out by the police, but also escape the Lock Hospitals ? — They go to private practitioners. There is one man in the town who takes up that particular line, and he told me that there was one of the registered girls who came to him after she had been discharged from the hospital, as although cured she still required medicine. 3403. You say these girls would not go to the Lock Hospitals ? — Most of them would not be so poor as to require them. 3404. Then you are of opinion that these women who differ from the registered prostitutes only in the fact that they are not found out, if they contract disease, never go to the workhouse or to Lock Hospitals, but always to private practitioners for medical treatment? — I think so. 3405. Might I ask you upon what your opi- nion is founded ? — From their position ; they are not so degraded or so sunk or poor as the regis- tered prostitutes. Most of them are, as I say, mill girls ; some pretend to be dressmakers, and so on. 3406. Then those clandestine prostitutes, using your own words, are of a higher class ? — They are of a higher class. 3407. And that would of course account for their being to a certain extent more accessible to the good influences which you bring to bear upon them ; would not that be so ? — Unques- tionably. 3408. With regard to the register ; that regis- ter is not, of course, open to inspection by the public ? — Certainly not. 3409. It would be a clear breach of duty on the part of the police if they were to show the register to any outsider, or give any information as to the names and addresses? — I assume it would, but I am not aware of the fact. 3410. You have never seen it? — I have never seen it. 3411. Therefore, when you make this state- ment as to the 14 women you referred to being on the register, I suppose you took the statement from their own mouths ? — They are so well known that there is no doubt about it. 3412. You assume it? — I know it upon that ground. 3413. You would not trust only to the state- ment of the women themselves ; that might very likely be misleading ; would a woman be likely to own herself to be on the register ? — All these things are so perfectly well known ; when they are ill, they send for me to their house ; they receive me respectfully, and tell me what is going on. 3414. You admitted, to a certain extent, the deterrent effect of the Acts, did you not ? — i do not admit that, because I do not know of any case where the Act has had a deterring influence, but I do not dispute the fact. 3415. Assuming that the Acts have a deterrent influence, should you not think that that deterrent 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, effect would be more visible in the case of younger women who had not committed themselves yet, or were only, so to speak, on the verge of a life of vice ? — Possibly. 3416. You spoke of the ages of some of these girls ; but is there not a great deal of difficulty in ascertaining the ages of the wouien. When you say that one or two of these women were under 16 or 17 years of age, may I ask upon what data you proceed ? — I know they are youngs very young. 3417. But that does not tell you their age j. you may know that they are young, but their appearance may in itself be deceptive ? — But in many cases I do know their ages from their con- nections, their relatives, parents, and so forth. 3418. Do you take their ages from their own statement ? — No, I take it from their parents and families. 3419. To bring it to a particular case, you stated that there were two girls under 16, whom you knew, as practising prostitution ? — I know more than that ; I think it probable, from what I know about them, that they are under that age. 3420. But take the individual cases to which you have referred specifically ? — I referred to one in particular, a girl who I said was only 13. 3421. How do you know that the girl is only 13? — The Lady Deaconess Principal has more con- nection with that case than I have, and it is from her that I had it : and it was from the girl's mother that she had it ; I can only give it in that way. The vicar of one of our chui'ches is ac- quainted with the girl, but if it were said that she were a year younger I would not dispute it ; at any rate she is very young. 3422. Now, you spoke of girls of 16 ; how do you know the age of these girls ? — I was informed by the sister of one of these women that she was 22 years of age, and had been eight years upon the town ; that is how I got that fact. 3423. I was referring more particularly to the cases in the year 1880 ; I think you stated, in contradiction, no doubt, to Captain Harris's re- port, that there wercj to your knowledge, two girls of the age of 16 who were carrying on pros- titution ? — 1 have a memorandum before me of nine who are at the present time under 17 years of age. 3424. But what evidence have you of their being under 17 ? — From general knowledge and particular information. 3425. Do you speak from the appearance of the girls or from statements which they have made ? — No, I speak in no case from statements which they have make, but from my own know- ledge of them and from their parents' statements I have arrived at the age. There are some of those cases in which I have known the girls from little children ; I have seen them grow up. 3426. But would that enable you to say whether a girl is under 17 or 18 at the present lime ? — No, not exactly ; I could not do it with any precision, certainly. 3427. I am not putting this question to you at all offensively, but could you go into a court of justice and take your oatli that such and such a girl was under or over 16 ? — No, certainly not. 3428. You were speaking about these public s 2 meetings 140 MlNl'TES OF EVI PENCE TAKEN BEFdUE IHE 18 April 18B2.] Mr. S. F. KiMBAL'J-T. \_L'oulinued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. mcitin"s that have been held under your auspices to protest apinst the Acts : I am afraid from what you said that the result of tliese meetings lias rather been to advertise the Acts, has it not ? — I am afraid so. Of course it did a certain amount •of £TOod, but it did a certain amount of harm at the same time. 3429. 1 think, as far as I understood you, that the way in which you say the Acts did harm was that they created an impression in the minds of the younger men that they might carry on their vicious practices with impunity, because they thought they would be safe r — Amongst many of them who have been at the meeting it was a matter of conversation for a week or two after- wards; it was the talk of the town, I gathered that the young men felt themselves encouraged, that it was a capital good thing. They argued that it was a necessity. They said. We cannot, most of U8, afford to marry, and therefore it is very right that some jirovision should be made for young men like ourselves who cannot enter into married life. 3430. Do you know that it is generally said by the ojjponents of the Acts that these Acts do not make vice safe, that they rather have in- creased than diminished the existence of venereal disease ? — I quite believe it. 3431. How do you reconcile that statement with the theory that the Acts have made vice safe, and that young men act upon that theory ? — 1 think they are deceived by it. 3432. The young men attend these meetings, Aad assume, from what they hear there, that the Acts make vice safe, and that therefore they can sin with impunity : is not that a correct state- ment of what you have said ? — Yes, that is so. 3433. 1 was under the impression, from the evidence which has been given before this Com- mittee, and I think you rather lean to the opinion, that the view of the oponents of the Acts was that the Acts did not make vice safe ? — That is so. 3434. And I suppose, at the meetings you have referred to, that view, like every other view which can be urged against the Acts, has been put forward ? — No doubt. 343;'). How do you reconcile the view put for- ward by the opponents of the Acts, that as a matter of fact they do not make vice safe, with the notion which seems to prevail amongst these young men whom you have described, that, pro- vided they get hold of a registered woman, they would be safe from all consequences ? — I do not feel called upon to reconcile it ; I only ob- serve it. 3436. But at all events we have it that, in the view of the opponents of the Acts, the Acts, so far from diminishing, have increased disease ; on the other hand, we have the view that men are tempted, by the prospect of immunity from disease held out by the Acts, to proceed with their vicious courses, and I see a difSculty in re- conciling these views ? — I do not see that myself. 3437. Then will you kindly say how you reconcile them ? — 1 do not believe they make vice safe, but I can quite believe that young men think 80. 3438. In the face of the facts ? — The young Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, men do not believe the view ])ut forward in oppo- sition to the Acts, and they deny it. 3439. Do you not think they find out tlicir mistake by bitter exjicriencc? — 1 believe they do, and by very bitter experience. I can state facts from my personal knowledge of a considerable number of )-oung men, and very respectable young men : I hardly know one, amongst several I have in my mind, who has been free fi-om venereal disease. I am sorry to say it, but still it is the fact, and I know it. 3440. That fact, coming from you, is a little in- consistent with the prevalence of the belief which that letter you have read certainly expresses, that in the opinion of the young men of Maid- stone the Acts make vice safe? — That is the belief of the young men. 3441. Bnt that beliel', with a very little expe- rience, will be dissipated? — That is so. 3442. You spoke of the ])ublic opinion in Maidstone upon the subject of these Acts ; could you give us any idea at all what the opinion of the magistrates of the borough is ? — 1 do not know that. 3443. Nor of the town council ? — Of course I know the opinions of very many of them, but I cannot speak for the public opinion of them. 3444. Do you know what the opinion of the Members for the borough is? — I do not know that. 3445. Have you had any petitions from the borough ? — Yes, we have had thi-ee or four against the Acts. 3446. You could not, I suppose, give me any idea from the signatures to those petitions as to the persons from whom the opposition to the Acts chiefly proceeds ? — I do not know that I could give you any information upon that head. Mr. Cavendish Bentinclt. ;5447. Do I understand your view to be, that there are a great many more women practising prostitution in the town of Maidstone than are returned by the police ? — Certainly it is. 3448. Will you kindly give me your opinion as to how it is that the police have not been able to discover those persons ? — I cannot give it you ; I do not know how it is, except that the ])olice- man would not have the opportunities that I have of ascertaining the fact. I do not know how a policeman walking the streets could possibly know what is going on, because he has not the confidence of the jjcople ; he is rather shunned and avoided. 3449. But it is the duty of the policeman also to visit the brothels, is it not? — I believe so. 3450. And to take every precaution he can for the purpose of ascertaining who are prostitutes ? — Yes. 3451. With regard to these women that you say are prostitutes, and are not registered by the police, where do they exei'cise their prostitution? — Generally speaking in their own homes ; they generally occupy one room, a front room, in which there is a bed. 3452. How do they get their customers there? — Those women go to certain public-houses and places, of which there are several in Maidstone, which are resorted to by characters of that description, SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 141 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. RiMBAULT. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, description, fast young men and women of that kind. 3453. You say that women go to the public- hoiises and exercise prostitution ? — I do. 3454. Do you mean to tell me that when they go to exercise prostitution at the public-houses, they ai'e not seen by the police ? — I do not say that they go there for the purpose of exercising prostitution there, but for the purpose of getting hold of men. 3455. But what is that but exercising prosti- tution? — Yes, but not for the purpose of practising it in the house. 345(). You say that there are a very large number of women in Maidstone whose practice it is to leave their homes, and to entice or obtain customers, and take them home with them ; do you mean to tell me that when a large number of women do that, they are not seen by the police ? — They must be seen by the police. 3457. You say there are a large number of women who go out and obtain custom, and are seen by the police ; then why do not the police have them registered ? — That is a question I have asked the man himself, and he says he cannot get a case ; simple suspicion will not do. 3458. I must ask you to answer me this question clearly : if there are a large number of women who are living by prostitution, and go out habitually into the streets, and bring cus- tomers home, and those women are not re- gistered by the police, it is a distinct charge, in my opinion, of gross neglect against the police. What I understood you to say was this, that there were a number of women exercising pros- titution, and living in private lodgings, and that those women went out into the streets and into the public houses, and there they obtained customers, whom they brought home with them ; did you say that ? — I did say that. 3459. I want to know how it is that those women have not been registered by the police ; you do not appear to know ? — I have nothing to do with it. 3460. If these women are in the habit of indulging in these practices, is it not clearly a neglect of duty on the part of the police not to have them registered ? — I do not know that I ought to be called upon to answer this question, whether it is a neglect of duty or not ; I do not blame the man for it. 3461. But is it not the duty of the police to register every woman who is exercising prosti- tution ? — 1 know it is. 3462. Therefore,' if they are not registered, is it not a clear neglect of duty on the part of the police ? — Yes ; but I have spoken to him again and again, and asked him why it was that these girls were not upon his books, and he said that he had not a case against them ; he knew as well as I did that they were prostitutes, but that he had not sufficient proof of the fact, although he had no doubt of it. 3463. Did you tell him that you knew these women took men home with them ? — I have told him more than that ; I have told him here is a girl who has confessed to me that she is a prosti- tute, and yet she is not on the books. 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued. 3464. Is the man to whom you gave this information now acting as the inspector under the Contagious Diseases Acts at iVJaidstone? — He is. Chainuan. 3465. Is his name Wheatley ? — It is. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 3466. You had given him this information, and his reply to you was that there was not sufficient evidence to place them on the books ? — Yes. 3467. Did you frequently give him informa- tion of this sort ? — I have on several occasions, and 1 have had the same reply. 3468. Then, as far as you know, there has been no very stringent application of the Act at Maidstone ? — No, there has not. 3469. Did you ever hear any complaints of a woman being improperly charged with prostitu- tion by the police ? — Not since the present officer has been in Maidstone, which is now six yearsj hut previously to that 1 had complaints made to me ; I do not believe this nnm would commit himself. 3470. Did you ever hear any complaint of the molestation of a respectable woman ?^ — I have when the Act was first brought into operation. 3471. How many years have passed since you heard any such complaint? — I have not for the last six or seven years heard any such complaint at all. 3472. Did I understand you to say that prosti- tution at Maidstone has increased considerably ? — I believe clandestine prostitution has increased very much. 3473. And prostitution generally ? — Yes. 3474. Has that anything to do with the Acts ? — No. 3475. Has it nothing at all to do with the Acts ? — I do not think it has. •^f 76. Then you spoke also of some indecent exhibitions which had taken place ; I suppose you would not attribute those indecent exhibi- tions in any way to the Acts ? — No ; I merely refer to that to account for the precocity in vice, and the general depravity among the youth of the town. 3477. That is at Maidstone?— Yes ; I can speak very strongly indeed upon that head. 3478. Is the Petition dated the 31st July 1879, the only petition which his been presented from Maidstone upon this subject ? — No ; there have been three or four ; I do not know exactly how many. .3479. Is this the latest petition ? — No, there has been one at least since then. 3480. And this petition, I observe, is signed by only 24 persons ? — Those were persons present at a meeting ; it was only persons of weight and position who were acquainted with the town, and spoke upon a certain point, whose signatures were appended. 3481. Do you know what was the last peti- tion ? — There was a ladies' petition ; a meeting of ladies was held, and the petition was subscribed by several ladies, but 1 do not know to what extent. 3482. To your knowledge there has been no s 3 })etition u-j MINUTES OF iLVIUENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 April 1882.1 Mr. S. F. RiMBALLT. IContiiiued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch —continued. petition presented by any influential residents in the town of late years against the Acts? — I do not know that there has been anything very recent; I think there have been petitions ex- tensively signed by influential ]iersons in the town. 3483. But not of very recent date? — Not of very recent date. 3484. Not since that petition, signed by (24 ]ier- sons?— Yes, there has been a ladies' petition. 3485. You say that the Act is not now at all repugnant to the class of people to whom it is applied? — Certainly not to the registered girls ; they do not object to it, but they did very strongly at first. 3486. Have you any complaints of indecency in the streets where the examination room is situated? — No, I think the examin;ition is con- ducted very quietlyand properly as faras it can be. 3487. You have had no comphiints? — No, I have had no complaints : tiie examination is not conducted in a public neighbourhood, it is right in the midst of where tlie girls live. 3488. You have not heai'd any complaints of indecent behaviour amongst the girls in passing backwards any forwards? — Certainly not. 3480. If there had been you would have heard of it? — Perhaps I might. 3490. But, at all events, it is not in a public neighbourhood at all ? — It is not in a respectable neighbourhood at all. 3491 . But no complaints have been made along the road where the girls would walk ? — They would not have far to go. only a few doors. Mr. HanhHry T'racy. 3492. I think you stated, in answer to the Judge Advocate General, that you inferred there was a good deal of misconception existing as to the security afforded by these Acts ; and you stated also that a great number of young men had bitter experience that the passing of the Acts did not altogether prevent the spread of disease ; the Judge Advocate General thereupon asked you whether, it being the fact that a certain number of young men obtained this bitter ex- perience, it was not strange that the insecurity of the Act did not become more generally known. What I wish to ask you is this: do you think that those young men who are so caught by the disease are very careful to avoid letting other people know it ; or do you think that those around them would have an opportunity of taking warning by their condition, and so letting other people know of the insecurity which existed under the .Acts ?— Certainly not because the matter would be kept secret. 3493. And you think that those young men would be very careful not to let the fact be known? — Certainly: those that I had in my mind were all most highly respectable gentlemen in their position in life. Mr. Ho-pviood. 3494. They would feel it would be a disgrace to them to have it known, and therefore they would keep the fact secret '. — That is so. Mr. Hupwoiid — continued. 349.3. Therefore, as my honourable frienil has asked you, it is perfectly consistent with the sug- gestion of the Judge Advocate General ? — Cer- tainly. 3496. You were asked whether there was any Petition jn-esented lately, and you referred to the Petition of the 31st July 1879 ; that Petition is solely directed to one jjoint. and that is to the Government figures as rendered in the Police Return? — Just so. 3497. And upon that point a meeting was called, and a nundjer of gentlemen signed the Petition, attesting their belief that those figures were incorrect ? — That was the point. 349.S. And amongst those 24 signatures which we hear of there were some of men of the first consideration in the place ? — There were as- suredly. 3499. I observe the Vicar, the Rev. Thomas Harvey ; the Unitarian minister, the Rev. Ed- ward Grant ; the Congregational minister, the Bajjtist minister, and then there is your name as town missionary, and a physician and surgeon, and a number of others of consideration and posi- tion ? — They were people competent to speak upon the subject. 3.500. And credible, on account of the position they fill in society? — Quite so. 3.501. You have been asked whether there have been any petitions recently ; is it under- stood that while this Committee is sitting, to a certain extent, petitions are stayed ? — I do not know whether it is understood, but having peti- tioned in former years, we have not thought it necessary to petition again. 3502. This Committee has been sitting about three years ; but would you have any difficulty in getting up petitions if you thought it needful? — Not at all ; it would involve a great deal of trouble, but I could very easily get plenty of signatures, if needful. 3503. You have no doubt that there is a large body of opinion in the place adverse to the Acts? — Undoubtedly. 3504. You stated that the meetings gave in- formation as to the supposed security which the Acts gave ? — I did. 3505. Do you blame the promoters for those meetings ? — Certainly not. 3506. Or do you blame those who passed such an Act of Parliament ? — I do that ; I have felt acutely the difficulty of dealing with the matter. 3507. You know it is generally understood, or supposed, that every man, woman, and child, knows the law ? — That is so. 3508. We know it is not so, but still those who passed the law must have acted upon that supposition ? — Yes. 3509. It may be one thing to hold out the expectation of safety, and another thing to fulfil it ?— Quite sf>. 3510. Young men might lielieve they were safe, but you believe that they have found out to their cost, in a good many instances, that they are not safe ? — That is so. 3511. As I understand, you believe that clan- destine prostitution, if it has not increased, is largely SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 143 18 .-Iprtl 1882.] Mr. S. F. RiMBAULT. [ Continued. Mr. Hopicood — continued. largely existing in Maidstone ? — I believe it has increased. 3512. Then you are supposed to charge the police with neglect of duty, but is it not the fact that these women to avoid the police are more careful in their conduct ? — They are more care- ful certainly than they would otherwise be. 3513. Then, again, it is assumed that these women go into the streets to attract customers ; I i^resume you will agree that there are a hun- dred ways of attracting customers ? — In my walks on Saturday nights, which I have taken for a number of weeks in succession, for that is the evening when shopmen and other young men have money to spend, I have seen many phases of this vice. I recently saw a young man speak to a' girl ; I was within hearing distance, and I heard that girl try to beguile that young man, and he said, " I cannot to-night, I have not got any money ; but I will meet you to-morrow night if you like." The policeman, or the bogey man as they generally call him in the town, is avoided ; if they saw him, there would not be any solicitation, but if they do not see him, then there is the temptation to prostitution- 3514. Another effect of the Acts, as I under- stand, is that the known brothels containing five, six, seven, or eight girls, have been abolished ? — Most of them have been ; I only know of one or two at the most. 3515. The girls are distributed over the town ? — They are, but they live mostly in the same quarter, generally two together or sepa- rately. 3516. And then they meet with their custo- mers, wherever it may be, and bring them in on the sly ? — They do, into their rooms. 3517. You have been asked about the reclama- tory efforts which have been made in Maidstone of late years upon this matter ; is it the fact that the passing of these Acts has drawn a great deal of public attention to this social question ? — It has drawn a great deal of attention to it. 3518. And the strongest opponents of the Acts are greatly desirous of providing homes and means of reclamation without them ? — They are. 3519. With regai'd to the rules of the police, you were asked whether you were aware that the rules of the police are so and so. Perhaps you are not aware that they are only dated the 2nd of June, 1881, and, therefore, what may have been the previous rules the Judge Advo- cate has not told you ? — No, I confess that I know very little about it. 3520. Now, with regard to the age of these girls, and so on, have you taken all possible pains to ascertain it ? — I have taken all possible pains to ascertain it, and, as I say, most of those girls have grown np within my own knowledge ; I have seen them grow up, and therefore I can form an approximate idea as to their age. 3521. You can check statements in regard to them ? — That is so. 3522. I observe that the police put down the ages as under so and so and so and so : have they any better means than you have of knowing the ages of those people ? — I do not see how they can have. 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 3523. You were speaking about three young- women who live in a family, and you were con- vinced that they lived this sort of life, and you spoke of having some conversation with the policeman upon the subject : did you say that those girls dressed as ladies ? — They dressed as ladies, genteelly and quietly, not as fast girls. 3524. That is another mode of carrying on clandestine prostitution, by the modesty of the dress to avoid detection ? — It is. 3525. You say that during the last six or seven years that the present inspectoi- has been there, you have not heard any complaint of respectable women being molested ?— I have not heard any complaint, and I should not have supposed that there was any ground for it at all. 3526. I suppose from the time when the policeman becomes acquainted with the appear- ance of all the ladies in the place, there is no danger ; he is not likely to accost them ? — -I do not see how he can become acquainted with the appearance of all the ladies in a town of 30,000 inhabitants. 3527. But at all events he may get a general knowledge ? — He may get a general knowledge. 3528. Since the jDresent man has been ap- pointed there have been no complaints, you say, of respectable women being molested ; but prior to the appointment of the present policeman were there complaints? — Prior to his appoint- ment there were. Mr. W. Fowler. 3529. If I understand you rightly, if the police return which you have in your hands were taken up by any one not knowing anything about Maidstone, it would convey an entirely false impression about Maidstone ? — I am sure it would, an utterly false impression. 3530. Something was said about the coinci- dence (which was the expression, I think, used by Dr. Farquharson) of the efforts used to reclaim these people, with the passing of the Acts ; I understood you to mean, not that the Acts had caused it, except incidentally by calling attention to the condition of these people, more than it had been called attention to before ? — That is so. 3531. It is very natural that the passing of the Acts should have called attention to great evils which otherwise would have been compara- tively lost sight of? — No doubt. 3532. So that a person might say that the Acts had produced that incidental benefit which was never intended ? — That is so. 3533. Something was said about these women to whom my honourable friend has referred, who dressed so quietly and at the same time were prostitutes ; I understood you to say before, that they were well known in the town and were frequently at the officers' quarters? — That is so. 3534. So that their condition was in a certain sense notorious? — It is quite notorious; one person in every three would know about the condition and the j^articulars of these girls. 3535. And yet the policeman in that case told you that he could not do anything? — He acknowledged that he had heard the reports. s 4 " 3536. Therefore 144 MINUTES f)F EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE 18 April 1882. Ml-. S. F. KlMBAUl.T. {^Continued. Mr. If. FuwIiT — continued. 3u.S6. Therefore you did discuss the niatlcr ■n-itli him ? — 1 did discuss the matter witli him. 3537. Yet he felt that he iiad no sufficient case?— He thought that he had no sufficient case. 3538. Tlierc was a little ambiguity, I think, in another answer which you gave to Dr. Far- quharson ; he used the expression, I think, " the refjuirements of the population as regards prot-ti- turion : " you did not exactly mean to say that you regarded a certain number of prostitutes as required by the population ? — Certainly not. 3539. But the matter was rather left in ambiguity ; I want to ask you distinctly whether you hold that any such requirements exist? — Certainly not. 3540. You would regard the theory of a certain number of prostitutes being required for a certain population as monstrous? — Monstrous; I should be very sorry if anything went down which conveyed any such impression. 3541. I think you also expressed the opinion that as far as you could judge, the Acts had stimulated secret vice ? — I understand so. 3542. I understand by that that the Acts have tended, as you thought, to make the women more careful and reticent in their conduct, but do you tiiink also that the number of women who are acting clandestinely has increased ? — The number has increased no doubt, but we have also a large number of mills in our neighbourhood, and those mill girls are much out in the streets; I have son.etirnes made myself useful in talking to the mill girls and fast young men, who sometimes conducted themselves very scandalou.sly : they were not jierhaps wicked, but they were foolish ; and since the passing of the Acts those girls have been obliged to be more careful in their demeanour. 3543. You think that on the whole vice has increased, but is less flagrant in its character ? — It is less flagrant, decidedly. 3544. It would not follow from that that the Acts had increased the total of vice, but had rather altered the character of it ? — They have altered the character of it distinctly. 3545. Something was said about the effect of the meetings at which you were present ; you stated that you felt great difficulty in making any reference in a public assembly to this ques- tion, and you stated that you thought some young men had got to know about it, who other- wise would not have known about it ? — That was so. 3546. That was an incidental bad effect of liaving the meeting ?— That was so. _ 3547. Upon that principle we should not discuss anything of this sort at all at a public meeting? — That cannot be; a meeting is a necessity. 3548. It is a public act done in a public assembly, and therefore is supposed to be a matter of public discussion? — -That is so. 3549. And if an Act of Parliament is of such a nature that it corrupts the commuuity to have it referred to, does not that rather imply that it is somewhat of a doubtful character in itself? — Unquestionably it does convey that to my mind. 3550. I think you also expressed the opinion Mr. W. Fou'lev — continued. that this view of the effect of the Acts and the corrupting influence of that view was general, that is to say, a groat number of young men had been affected by that opinion? — I can say that a great many have. 3551. Tiiat would not apply only to the young men who were at that meeting ? — It becomes a matter of conversation among the young men generally ; those who were at the meeting would spread and ventilate the question. 3552. But do you not suppose that the fact of the new policemen coming to the to>vn, and the examination house, and all that machinery, would be known and discussed whether that meeting had been held or not ? — It would, luidoubledly. 3553. Where is your examining house ; in what part of the town ? — It is facing the gaol wall. 3554. Is it in a public road ? — Yes, it is in a jiublic road, but it is in a very disreputable quarter. 3555. There is another question which I should like to ask you with regard to the character of these women who have been some time regis- tered ; you stated that you thought thev became hardened by time and by being so long under this system ; but do not you think that the periodical examination has of itself a tendency to harden them ?— It has, undoubtedly. 3556. Have you any evidence to give the Committee upon that point ? — Ko, I have no evidence upon that point except that I can see it in those girls, that they become more and more deteriorated. 3557. You know they become more hardened, but you would not be able to say whether the deterioration arose from the examination. You have not conversed with the girls upon that point? — I have not. 3558. Then you stated that you thought the police might do a great deal of good if the object of the Act was benevolence? — Yes. 3559. But I suppose your view is that the object of the Act is not bencvslence at all ? — That is my view. 3560. But that ihe object of the Act is to provideimprovedhealthto the soldiersand sailors .' — That is so. 3561. You said a good deal about the effect upon these young men, and I think tlie thing is now made pretty clear ; but I wish to ask you one more further question upon the point: is it not perfectly consistent for a young man to think that a certain arrangement will be useful and I>rotective, while at the same time, as a matter of fact, it will neither be useful nor protective ? — Quite so. 3562. So that he would go on in a fancied security, and not in a real security? — I believe so. 3563. Would not the result be this, that the very thing which was intended to increase the health tended to diminish the health? — I believe so. 3564. Because a young man might be induced, or one might say almost tempted to an indulgence, which otherwise he would have feared, and so be led forward into great degradation, physically as well as morally? — Quite so. 3565. I understood you to say from your own personal SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 145 18 April 1882.] Mr. S. F. KiMBAULT. \_Continued. Mr. W. Fowler — continued, personal observation that that was your opinion ? — That is my opinion. 3566. The Judge Advocate General seemed to think that that was an inconsistency, because the young men would soon find out that they were mistaken, and would publish it over the world that the fancied security is a delusion ? — That is out of the question. 3567. I suppose your young men, like other young men, are not very fond of talking about their complaints ? — It would not be very likely. Chairman. 3568. These young men that you had an opportunity of knowing, who caught the disease, were young men of a respectable class ? — They are quite respectable and well-connected young men. 3569. And pretty well known in the town? — Yes. 3570. And they knew the town pretty well? — They did. 3571. And I suppose they associated generally with what one may call the better class of prostitutes ? — -Yes. 3572. With some of the clandestine prostitutes ? Yes. 3573. You are not able to fix the disease of these young men upon the registered prostitutes? No, I do not think they would have made use of them. 3574. Will you look at this Paper {Jianding a paper to the Wiitiess), and tell me whether the first name is that of one of the girls with regard to whom you spoke specially to the police ? — Yes. 3575. Did the police then tell you that they would watch this girl ?— No. 3576. Did they tell you that they had watched her before ? — ^They had watched her ; they had been looking after her for some time. 3577. Now look at the three lower names ; were those the names also of girls whom you mentioned to the police ? — Yes. 3578. And did the police say that they had watched them too, or that they would watch them ? — The second name the policeman told me he had watched, but he could not detect anything; he did not know anything aboiit her ; he had watched the house and saw nothing, that is all. 3579. Did the police on any occasion decline, or tell you that they would not watch girls whom you pointed out to them ? — No, 3580. You found no unwillingness on the part of the police ? — No, not at all. 3581. But they expressed to you the great difficulty they felt in bringing those girls within the jurisdiction of the Acts? — They did. 3582. Did they tell you that there were many other women throughout the town with regard to whom they felt the same difficulty? — Something to that effect. 3583. You spoke aboutmarried women carrying- on a life of prostitution ; do you mean by that, married women seeing some one man beside their husband, or really plying the trade for gain ? — I do not mean seeing merely one man beside their husband, but reallv trading with gentlemen. 0.75, Chairman — continued. 3584. Were those married women generally of a low class ? — No, not particularly of a low class. 3585. They were living with their iiusbands, were they not? — They were living with their husbands. 3586. I think you stated that in some cases these women were carrying on this trade with the connivance of their husbands ? — Yes ; cer- tainly. 3587. Do not you think it would require very great caution and a very clear case to justify the police in endeavouring to put such women upon the register ? — Certainly ; I do not see how it is practicable for the police to interfere in such cases at ail ; I do not see how they can copcwitb, them. 3588. You had some of these conversationt; with the Contagious Diseases police in Maid- stone before the year 1881, as to the number of women who remained off the register? — I had. 3589. Did you understand from them then that they were acting under orders in avoiding taking up girls without certain information? — I do not know that anything was said about orders ; I do not remember that. 3590. But they appear to have clearly defined ideas that they should be able to prove certain things before they could proceed ? — That is so. 3591. I suppose there was always some clan- destine prostitution about Maidstone, even before the passing of these Acts?— Certainly. 3592. When were the mills you speak of es- tablished ? — I cannot say ; but they have been there for many years; I refer to the paper mills. 3593. Before the Acts were passed did you occupy yourself as specifically and as pointedly upon the subject of the reclamation of these fallen girls ? — No, I had rather avoided visiting those parts where the girls were, for the simple reason that we had no facilities at that time for their reclamation. 3594. Then, as I understand, it is since the passing of the Acts that your attention has been directed to the amount and the nature and charac- ter of the prostitution ? — More especially. 3595. Therefore you cannot speak with refer- ence to the clandestine prostitution, and its amount and nature, before the Acts were passed with the same accuracy and certainty that you can now ? — I think I can. 3596. But you had not the opportunity of inquiring into it ? — We are speaking now of clandestine prostitution, and not with regard to the regular and common women. 3597. Did you go amongst them? — I went amengst them iu the natural course of my work, 3598. Did you pay the same attention to the observation of clandestine jDrostitution before the Acts were passed as you have done since ? — Perhaps 1 did not pay quite so much attention to it : I think I have given more attention to it since. 3599. Therefore you could not speak with quite the same accuracy as to the amount of clandestine prostitution before the Acts as j^ou can since ; yon had not the same amount of ob- servation to go upon ? — Perhaps not quite ; but in my regular work I keep a record of the names T of 146 MINLTES OF KVIUEJTCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 18 April 1882.] Mr. F. S. RiMBAULT. \_Cuntiimed, tlioirman — continued, of parties whom I visit to assist ray memory, and I had just the same opportunities before tiie Act of knowing the f.icts as 1 had subsequently. 3610. I will ask you one more question; 1 should like to know if you think that the whole of the class of jjrostitutes who u;o with soldiers, as a rule, get registered, or does that class manage to escape registration in any number ? — No, that is the class which is registered. Mr. Stansfeld. 3601. Then I understand your view to be this, that you do not find fault with the police for nothaviugput upon the register the kind of women to whom you have referred ? — Certainly not. 3602. What you would gather is, that they might resist, and the jiolice might be unable to prove a case? — That is so. 3603. With regard to the more regular and poorer kind of prostitutes, they do not aftbrd such resistance ? — That is so. 3604. Therefore it would come to what you have said, that by the force of the Acts you get one class of prostitutes upon the register and not another ? — That is it. 3605. And however clearly that may be ex- plained, and however easily understood, that is not a carrying out, is it, of the object of the Contagious Diseases Acts, the object of the Contagious Diseases Acts being to place the names of all known common women upon the register, and ihat, as you know, is the instruc- tion to the police ; practically they fail, though you do not find fault with them for failing, but they do fail in their duty ? — That is what 1 wish to convey. 3606. In the course of your experience, have you not in your owu mind compared the aspect and manner of the elder and more hardened registered prostitutes with the younger prosti- tutes and the clandestine prostitutes ? — Yes. Mr. Stansf (Id— coni\xme<\. 3607. Of which of the two classes should you entertain the greatest hope of reclamation ? — I have vcrv little hope of the older ones. 3608. Whether registered or not? — Whether registered or not. 3609. But 1 think I understood you to express the opinion that the registered women were older? — I think they are. 3610. We have it before us, and probably you are aware that the Returns show a constant ten- dency to an increase in the age of registered women ? — That is so. 3611. Therefore, if the effect of the Acts were confined to increasing the average age, that would deteriorate the quality of the women and the chance of reclamation? — Undoubtedly. 3612. AVould your opinion upon the subject of reclamation be that the (jwisi sauction on the one hand, and the fortnightly examination on the other, would be likely to have a hardening influ- ence upon the women ? — I think it would have a very hardening influence uj)on the women. 3613. The Reverend Flavel Cook, who is chaplain to the Lock Hosjiital in the Harrow- road, was examined before this Committee, and in answer to the question of the Judge Advo- cate General, " What distinction is tliere be- tween the two classes " (that is to say, the registered and non-registered)? he says, " The distinction is this, and I think it is obvious to almost anyone, at first sight, that the Govern- ment patients are horribly alike at one dull dead level. The ordinary patients are vcrj' mixed, some of more and some of less education, some of more and some of less refinement of appear- ance, but the Government patients are brutal- ised beyond description in appearance and in manner;" now does that statement tally with your impression? — It entirely agrees with my own experience. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 147 Friday, 2\st April 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Burt. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. O'Sbaughnessy. Llr. Stansfeld. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr. Daniel Cooper, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Stansfeld. 3614. Are you Secretary to the Society for the Rescue of Women and Children ? — I am. 3615. Where is your chief office ? — 85, Queen- street, Cheapside. 3616. How long have you been secretary to that society ?--For nearly 30 years. 3617. Since the formation of the society, I presume ?■— Yes. . 3618. In what year was the society formed? — In 1853. 3619. What is the objeet of that society? — The rescue of young women and children ; that is of fallen and unfallen, their general care, and to ultimately place them out in society, as well as to bring them to a sense of themselves, and to God. 3620. Then what I understand is that you direct your operations with regard to the interest of two classes of young women, first the fallen, and secondly, those whom you think are in danger of falling into vice ? — Certainly. 3621. You make such provision I presume without any limit of age with regard to the per- sons concerned? — It is not quite without limit; we do not think it advisable lo take prostitutes of mature age because of their unsusceptibility generally. We make exceptions to that rule, but our general rule is not to receive fallen women above a certain age. 3622. You prefer the young as being more reclaimable ? — We do. 3623. But I was thinking of another side of the question ; do you make any special provision for very young girls ; I mean more special pro- vision than any other rescue society make ?- I am not aware of any special provision whatever made by any rescue society either in London or throughout the country for young fallen girls; but we have two homes set apart for those, one for children of under 12 years of age, and another for those from 12 to two or three years older, say from 12 to 16. 362J. Your experience has led you to make that special provision? — Yes, it has. 3625. You did not begin with making it, did you ? — We did not ; but in the course of our operations we found the extreme difficulty of mixing the very young fallen gii-ls with those of maturer years, so that we made that provision. 0.75. Mr, Stansfeld — continued. 3626. Who is the president of your society? — The Earl of Shaftesbury. 3627. I gather that you divide the objects of your care in the homes in which you place tiiem ; you have a certain number of those homes ? — Yes, we have 11 homes ; 10 of them are situated in the suburbs of London, except the temporary home in the City, and one is the seaside home at Ramsgate. 3628. Besides the temporary home you have 10 homes, in which the inmates are classified in the neighbourhood cf London and the Conva- lescent Home at Ramsgate ? — That is included in the 10. 3629. Tlien you have a voluntary Lock Hos- pital ; where is that ? — At Hampstead ; that is included in the 10 homes ; the hospital is com- bined with a home ; the patients are trans- ferred from the hands of the medical man to the home department when well enough to take their share in the ordinary routine duties of the home. 3630. Is the Lock Hospital attached to a home ? — It is ; it is in the very same house, in- deed. 3631. Are those homes all for fallen women ? — No ; we have five for the unfallen ; but they are about equally divided. 3632. The total number is 11, is it not? — I think we have five houses for the unfallen. Then the Ramsgate Home, the seaside home, is for either class, in the case of those who have been restored to morality. 3633. You find the class of lower domestic servants very liable to go astray, do you not? — Yes ; we find that they are a very large per centage of those who have gone astray. 3634. Coming to the second class to which you have referred, those who have not fallen, but whom you consider to be in danger of needing care, they consist, as I understand, largely of those servants of the poorer class, who are out of place ?— Yes ; and also of those who are not old enough to enter situations ; I may say, in regard to those young girls, what we call prepentive cases, that is in homes, not for the fallen, we have many as to whom we are doubtful as to their being fallen or unfallen ; but we give them the benefit of the doubt upon their own statement, X 2 and 148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN llEFOKE THE 21 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. Mr. Slansfeld — continued, and suiijiosinp; that statement to be corroborated by an}- otliei- evidence. 3().'ij. You do not enter into any inquisitorial investijration with respect to tlie trutli of their statements? — Wc do not make any medical examination of" the uirls; we avoid that. 3636. You tliink it a part of your duty, how- ever, closely to critisisc the statements of the women ? — Both of ihe fallen and of the un- fallen ; and we endeavour to show them the benefit of telling us the truth upon their first api)litaiion to us, and we endeavour also to show them that we are their friends, and to get them to tell us the whole truth, however much it may appear at first to make against them. 3637. "What do you call the homes for the fallen ? — The rescue homes as against the pre- ventive homes. 363y. What is the amount of accommodation in the rescue homes ? — "W^e can receive into the rescue homes about 100; an equal number for each. 3639. "What is your total of accommodation ? — "We can accommodate 200. 3640. I presume you do not always have that number? — Ko, we do not. I am sorry to say we are sometimes deficient in funds (though I have not any com])laint to make against the public in that respect}, and our reception of inmates is limited accordingly. 3G41. Am I right in assuming that if your homes are not full, whenever that ha]>pens it is in consequence of insuflicient support by the public, and not of the want of applications?— Decidedly so. 3642. ilow many have you in the homes now ? — I think there are about 160 or 170. 3643. Do you receive any aid from Govern- ment? — Kot any whatever. 3644. There is such' a thing as aid given by the Government to rescue societies, is there not? — Y^es ; I think the sum given by Government is half-a-crown a week. Mr. Oshoi-ne Morgan. 3645. To whom is that given? — I think it is given by the Government to societies or institu- tions receiving women from Lock hospitals ; it is not given independently of the Lock hospitals. ]\rr. Staiisfild. 3646. I know there is in the Navy Estimates a sum voted for that purpose ; are you aware of that ? — I did not know it. 3647. Have you ever been asked to take women from the Government lock hospitals ? — Kepeatedly ; but not always directly\ '\^^e had an application, years ago, from Dr. Barr, but we refused on principle as not approving of the prin- ciple of the Acts. On the contrary, we entirely disapprove of the principle of the Acts. 3648. And upon that ground you refused the application ? — "We refused the application upon that ground. 3640. But does it follow that you have never treated or reclaimed registered women ? — I can- not say that. I was about to say that they have been, in some individual instances, smuggled into our homes ; that is to say, they ha^ e been got into our homes by indirect means without, to Mr. Stnn.tfeld — continued. our knowledge, the intervention of the officials under the Acts. 3650. By which, I understand you to mean, that benevolent persons in certain subjected dis- tricts have introduced those cases of registered women to you without saying they were regis- tered, and thereupon you have taken them in ? — Yes, that is correct. 3651. So that you have some experience of registered women? — A very large exjjericnce. 3652. Do you employ agents to collect these cases that come before you ? — We do not ; we have never found it necessary to emjiloy any one to bring those cases to us; they have always been far more numerous than wc could receive. 3653. What kind of persons have recom- mended those cases to you ? — The persons who have recommended those cases to us have gene- rally been benevolent persons, missionaries, Scripture readers, and much more largely iudivi- duiils not holding any official position. At one> time the women sent to us were chiefly from chajilains of gaols and clergymen and others holding an official position ; ])rivate individuals seemed afraid to jiut their hands to the work, but now the s[iirit of benevolence, i)liilanthrophy, and Christian feelinj:, I believe, has pervaded the minds of pcojile, so that persons generally holding no official position have been largely occupied in sending the women to us. I find that distinctly to be the case in comparing the rejjorts of a quarter of a century ago with our present reports. 3654. The change you represent to be this, that whereas in the earlier years of your institu- tion those persons were generally recommended by persons in the official position of chaplains, ministers of hospitals, and so on, those cases have of late years been brought forward hj benevolent jjersons interested in the work of reclamation and prevention ? — Y'es, quite so, 3655. Y'ou have said that you attribute that change to the increased activity on the ])art of benevolent persons; do you attribute it to any decrease of action on the part of official persons in making those recommendations? — I do not; I attribute it to the increase of the eftbrts of private parsons. I think the eflbrts of tiie official per- sons have been outstripped by the efforts of pri- vate persons. 3656. Now, referring to your experience, can you give the Committee any fairly accurate idea of the age at which, to the best of your informa- tion and belief, the fallen girls who have come into your institution may be believed to have gone astray ? — I have not any information apart from the report. I can just quote from the last report. We, making provision especially for the younger class of fallen women and of girls, have received a very large number of very young girls. Quoting from the last report, 1 find that 14 fallen girls were received under 15 years of age, and 149 from 15 to 20 years of age; calcu- lating the whole number, 67 were from 20 to 25 j'cars of age, and 24 were above the age of 25. 3657. That is the age at which you receive those cases? — It is. 3658. But my question rather was with regard to the time at which they first went astray ? — That I can answer, too. 3659. Judcin!; SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 149 21 April 1882.] Mr. CooPEK. {Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — contimied. 3659. Judging from their own statements mainly, would you be prepared to say that at •whatever age your society has received them your experience would show that more than half of them had gone astray under 18 years of age? — Yes, we give yearly tabulated statements ; there is one in the report you have of the ages at which these very women to whom I have re- ferred went astray. 3660. And you would still saj' that more than half go astray under the age of 18 years? — Yes, decidedly, 3661. One of your homes I think you say is for fallen children, if one may use the expression (outraged children I would prefer to call them), uj) to the age of 12 years ? — Yes. 3662. How many have you iienerally in that home? — We have accommodation for 15 or 16; I think there are 14 now in the home. 3663. What is the total number of females received into your home since your society began its operations? — 11,538. If you wish me to divide the fallen from the unfallen, I find that the fallen numbered 8,071 and the unfallen 3,467. 3664. Can you give the Committee a return of the number of women and girls received into your homes, and those applications which were rejected during the whole period of the existence of your society ? — Yes, I have a Return here which I can hand in. Return No. 1. ( The Return was handed in.) 3665. I observe from that Return that the number of applicants has diminished during the last 20 years ? — That is so. 3666. In 1860, what was the number of appli- cants? — The total number of applicants was 1,487. 3667. And what was the number in this last year, 1881 ? — Seven hundred and fourteen. 3668. That in fact is about one-half ?— Yes. 3669. To what do you attribute that reduc- tion?— I think I may attribute it generally, as far as our observation goes (and the judicial statistics support that observation), to the de- crease of prostitution generally. 3670. The figures you gave me were the appli- cations, were they not? — They were the whole applications, including those received. 3671. The number you gave of 1,487 in the year I860, and 714 in the year 1881, were the number of applications only ? — Exactly. 3672. Of course, the number of cases tliat you could receive would be limited by reference to your acc(immodation ? — ^Yes. 3673. Has your accommodation been pretty nearly the same for the last two years ? — I think it has. 3674. Those applications, do I under.stand you to say that, taking the total period, 8,071 you classed as fallen, and 3,467 as unfallen ; is that so? — It is. 3675. What is the tendency as between those two classes ; to an increase of the number of un- fallen or of fallen women ? — To an increase in the number of unfallen women decidedly. 3766. That is to say, of Late years? — Of late years. 3677. And you are inclined to attribute the decrease in the number of ajiplications of women 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, fallen, or in danger of falling, a good deal to the decrease of prostitution itself? — I am ; I do not say entirely to the decrease of prostitution ; other agencies may have provided for a larger number than we have. 3678. Or the vicious life in either sex may have taken a different form ? — It may have. 3679. But, on the whole, I understand this to be your view, that you are disposed to believe that there has been a certain improvement in that respect in society during the last 20 years ? — Undoubtedly. I am supported in that view by I think I may say all the agencies of a like cha- racter in London ; they are impressed by their own observation more I think I may say than by the Government figures, the Judicial Sta- tistics. 3680. Then do I understand you as feeling entitled or able to say that the opinion you have just expressed as to the reduction or diminution of prostitution of late years is shared by those in- terested in other societies ? — It is. 3G81. You say it is coiafirmed by the Judicial Statistics ? — It is. 3682. Have j^ou the figures of the Judicial Sta- tistics ? — -I have extracts from the Blue Books from 1862 to 1870, showing the figures issued by the Home Office. 3683. What was the number of prostitutes and brothels in the year 1862? — In the year 1862 there were 29,956 prostitutes ; no record is given of the number of brothels. 3684. That is in the whole of England ? — It is. 3685. What was the number in 1863?— In 1863 there were 28,800 prostitutes, and the number of brothels was 7,204. 3686. What was the number in 1864 ?— In 1864 there were 28,094 prostitutes and 7,092 brothels. 3687. And in 1865 ?— In 1865 the numbei of prostitutes was 27,548 and 6,949 brothels. 3688. And in 1866 ?— In 1866 there were 25,914 prostitutes and 6,811 brothels. 3689. What was the number in 1867?— In 1867 there were 25,619 prostitutes and 6,614 brothels. 3690. And in ] 868 ?— There were 25,627 pros- titutes and 6,482 brothels. 3691. What was the number in 1869 ?— In 1869 the number of prostitutes was not given, but the number of brothels was 6,287. 3692. What was the number in 1870 ?— In 1870 the number of prostitutes was not given ; that information ceased to be given in 1868 ; the number of brothels was 6,000. 3693. Is that the last return of the number of brothels?— No, I suppose it continues as regards brothels, but I have not carried the investigation further. 3694. Then I understand that the annual Judi- cial Statistics ceased to give the number of pros- titutes after the year 1868 ? — That is so. 3695. What are the official statistics furnished by the metropolitan police for London ? — I have not got them in so much detail, but I have some figures here going back to the year 1841. The num.ber of brothels in London was then 3,325, and of prostitutes 9,419 : in 1857 there were 2,825 brothels, and 8,600 prostitutes ; in 1868 T 3 there 150 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCK TAKF.N BF-FOTIE TIIK 21 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [^Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, there were 2,119 brothels, and 6,515 prosti- tutes. 3696. AVliere do you get those figures from ? — From the Judicial Statistics. 3697. And during tiiose periods there had, of course, been a very hirge increase in the popula- tion of London ? — A very large increase. 3698. Did the area remain the same to which those figures applied? — Quite so. 3699. And you are inclined to hope, and I understand to believe, that the very great efforts which have been made duriug the last 20 years or .«o by benevolent people to reclaim women, and to check inimoraiity, are entitled to some share in this apparent improvement .' — 1 think the rescue societies, and tiiose co operating with them, comprehending a very large nun)ber of jicople, are entitled to a very large share, the largest share I may say, of the credit of these results ; but I canncit exclude tlie many other agencies which have been at work, the tendencj' of which must have been of the same character; I refer to education, the suppression of drunkenness, and other means. 3700. Then I will put it in this way to you: I understand your view to be that the efforts at reclaiming these women who have fallen, and preventing the falling of girls who are in danger, you tliink has resulted in a diminution of the number of women living the life of j)rostitutes ? — Yes, that is so. 3701. You consider that thei-e is a large class of girls who would be in very great danger but for these efforts ? — Yes, and I may say that we find the greatest source of temptation to young girls to be in the large number of fallen women ; fallen women are a greater cause of leading others astray than any other cause, in fact than a large number of other causes ; when we have made an analysis we have found that to be the result. 3702. The girls have attributed their first fall to the temptations offered by women alreadj- fallen ? — Not the indirect temptations, but the actual inducements and persuasions, leading them astray. 3703. In what way have the efforts of benevo- lent persons of late years checked that dangerous tendencv ? — It is a very large question ; it does not consist merely in the efforts which have been made to get them into homes, but in the wide philanthropic spirit which has actuated many ])ersons in sheltering and befriending those poor girls. If a girl has not been long doing wrong we find persons willing sometimes to take into their houses such girls under certain restrictions. I may sa}- that during the last 38 years I have never had, in my house, a girl of wholly good cha- racter, and I have never suffered from it except from the loss of some small articles of clothing jjossibly. The Committee Room was cleared. On resuming, 3704. You have shown us from the Judicial Statistics that throughout the country, as well in the unsubjected as in the subjected districts, there has been a diminution in the number of prostitutes and brothels within the last 20 years ; and you have assigned certain causes which we heard with interest, as suggesting themselves to Mr. Stansfeld — continued, you from your experience in the matter ; but now I will pass from that question of the cause of this decrease to ask you to make a comparison between the subjected and unsubjected districts. Have you found in the subjected districts a dimi- nution of the same character and amount as in the unsubjected districts .' — Not in prostitution, as a whole. 3705. You are familiar with Cajjtain Hairis's figures, are you not.' — I have not seen Cajitain Harris's figures for some years, but I know that they are in existence. 3706. You know they show a diminutioii in the nuuibcr of rcgidar prostitutes at a greater rate than the Judicial Statistics show? —I do. 3707. Do you feel enabled to express a confi- dent o])ini(in as to the progress of the decrease of prostitution in the subjected districts, including not only the registered, but the unregistered prostitutes? — From having had numerous women from the subjected districts, and coming into contact, in the aggregate, with a large number of people living in those districts, I feel able to state, and I do state, my belief that there is no real decrease in the actual number of prostitutes in the subjected districts, in proportion at least to the corresponding decrease in places not subject to the Acts. 3708. There is a larjjer decrease, that we know ; if we compare tiie registered ])rostitute3 year by year since the passing of the Contagious Diseases Acts with the Judicial Statistics year by year, there is a larger dccre ise in the number of these registered prostitutes in subjected districts than in tiie known conmion women in places not under the Acts? — Yes. 3709. But you say that there is not a larger but a less decrease in the amount of prostitution in the whole ? — That is my general opinion. 3710. Now let me take your own society ; you have received a number of women and girls, have you not, from the subjected districts ? — "\Ye have. 3711. Between tb.e year 1853 and 1870, or I will take it from 1870, after the Acts were in full operation to 1881 ; can you give me those figures? — We have received from the subjected districts from the year 1870 to 1880 inclusive, 921 women and children ; of those 685 were of tiie fallen class and 236 were of the unfallen class ; the latter would be subject to some reservation. I have the return here, No. 2, giving the statement ; it shows the number received year by year, making a total of 921. ( Tlie same was handed ill.) 3712. What have you to say about those figures year by year ; on the whole do they lead to any conclusion ? — They lead to the conclusion that there is a large amount of clandestine pros- titution, or, more correctly speaking, of unregis- tered prostitution. 3713. That there is a large amount of it ? — A coonsiderable amount. 3714. Let us try and carry it a little further ; have you a return showing a division of tiie fallen women received from the subjected districts into two classes, registered and unregistered '! — I have. 3715. What is that: is that your Eeturn No. 3 ? SELECT COMMITTEE ON C0:NTAG10US DISEASES ACTS. 151 21 Jpril 1882. \ Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. Mr. StaiLsfeld — continued. Xo. 3 ? — Yes, return No. 3. ( The Return was handed in.) 3716. Will you give the Committee a summary of the figures contained in that return. During the 12 years from 1870 to 1881, inclusive, you re- ceived 327 registered women and 358 unregis- tered, did you not ? — Yes, we did. 3717. But they were all fallen women from the subjected districts? — Yes. 3718. There are more unregistered, therefore, during; the experience of the last ten years, than of registered prostitutes? — Yes; and the last column of this return shows that of the unregis- tered women 65 were actually diseased at the time they came to us. 3719. I presume you have classified them as registered and unregistered upon the strength of their own statements ? — Not entirelj' ; we have taken their statements, corroborated so far as could be by other evidence, the evidence chiefly of those who had sent them, together with the evidence of the matrons after they had come under our care. 3720. Are you prepared to say that it has been your habit to make a careful inquiry, as far as you have had the means, before you have classified them in those two columns? — Yes, I am j^rejjared to say that. 3721. Are you prepared to show your liooLs, if called upon ? — I am. 3722. And you are not only willing but desii-ous that they should be compared witli the police registers of those protected places? — VV'e are quiie willing that that should be done. 3723. Now, what is the conclusion which, in the first instance, you would draw from those figures as to the police registers of known common women in the subjected districts? — The con- clusion I should draw would be that they were not able to bring on to the register not only the whole of the women, but even the half of those who were moi-e or less practising prostitution, or, whether able or not, that they had not done so. 3724. Therefore, you say that they have either found it practically impossible to carry out the Contagious Diseases xicts, and to insert the names and addresses of all common women upon the register, or that they have purposely ex- cluded half of those women ? — Yes ; I am strongly inclined to think that since efforts have been made for the repeal of those Acts, there have been means devised for excluding them from the register. 3725. That is an opinion or suspicion ; but what I want to ask you is this : if your figures are correct, they point, as far as your experience goes, to an amount of unregistered prostitution rather greater than the amount of registered prostitution in the subjected districts ? — Quite so. 3726. I do not say they prove it, but they point to it ? — That is so. 3727. And I understand your argument to be this, that they are proof that the registers are not what the Acts intended them to be, com- plete ; that they must be incomplete, either be- cause the police could not complete them, or were not willing to do so? — Quite so. 3728. You are aware, are you not, that the 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continned. register is made ujJ to the end of each year ? — I am. 3729. And therefore, possibly, there may be women upon the register during the year whose names are, for some reason, removed, upon or before that day in the year when the numbers are taken ? — It may be so. 3730. In the first instance, is it within your knowledge that, in the course of a year, very young girls may come under the view of the police ; but that they may be removed either by the action of the police, or of benevolent persons, from a life of early vice ; and if they are removed before the last day of the year, their names never apjiear, and they will not add to the number of persons of a given age upon the register of vice in those localities ? — i presume that is ao. 3731. We have had it in evidence ; I mio-ht perhaps as well refer you to the evidence of Inspector Anniss at Question 3853. Will you just read the question and answer ?— The ques- tion was, " Then am I to understand that these figures are the fitiures simply of those who remain on your books until the end of the year ? " and his answer was, '' Of everyone who is in the dis- trict at a given time, whatever the time might be, if I took the names to-day, whatever the num^ ber might be, the return would contain the whole of every age. (Q.) AYhat would be the date of that Return ? — {A.) The annual retui-n is at the end of December; 52 weeks." 3732. Will you have the kindness to read the next question and answer ? — " And it describes the state of things which exists at that moment of time. {A.) Yes." 3733. Now you said that of the 35S unregis- tered women, 65 were actually diseased when they applied to be taken into your homes ? — Yes. 3731. Did an}^ others of them state that they had been previously diseased? — -Yes, I think (I have the number somewhere) that it was 18, but that would be an imperfect return, because we do not question them so closely with regard to that p)oint ; but I know that there was a consi- derable number. 3735. What is the number? — lam not sure, because I have not the return here. 3736. But those figures that you have just given us suggest to your mind, do they not, the especial danger, from a hygienic point of view, of this clandestine prostitution ? — Undoubtedly. 3737. Now in that return No. 3, the propor- tion of registered and unregistered is slightly altered there ; the registered are fewer in later years, and the unregistered increase contem- poraneously. In 1870 you give the number of registered women as 60, and in 1881 it is reduced to six ; will you give the Committee the reason of this exceptional decrease in the number of registered women received into your homes ? — We came to the conclusion that the women on the register were so injurious in influence, were such a source of mischief, and were the means of leading others astray by taking them to the sub- jected districts, that we felt obliged, with very great pain, to exclude applications of that charac- ter, and to direct our attention more particularly, and more largely, in favour of receiving those who had not gone wrong. 3738. I presume that your experience led you T 4 to 152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 21 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [^Continued. Mr. Stansffld -continued, to prefer to receive those who were not regis- tered ? — Quite so. 3739. Kot only those who had not gone wrong, but tliose who wore not registered ? — Yes ; I am glad to be allowed to correct my answer by that addition. 3740. Can you name the time when you came to that determination? — It was a gradual deter- mination ; just in projiortion as the dithculty canu' upon us did we form the determination to exclude the registered women. That was in some measure contemporaneously with the Acts ; the longer the Acts had been in existence, and the more the women had become familiar with the operation of the Acts, the more hardened iind less susceptible of impression they had become, and the more dangerous to the young women already in the homes. 3741. I jiret-ume }'ou would attribute thai hope- less character and those injurious influences very much to the length of time the women had been ju'actising their ])rofession ? — To a large extent, and more esjiecially in the subjected districts. 3742. Now with regard to that question of age, can you give the Committee a return ? — I have a return, No. 4, showing the comjjarative ages of the fallen women, registered and unregis- tered, comprised in return. No. 3. 3743. From all districts in the aggregate? — That is so {tlie same was handed in). 3744. Will you summarise the return. I think you have already told us that during that period you have received 327 registered fallen women and 358 unregistered fallen women ? — Yes. 3745. Of the 327 registered women, how many were more than 21 years of age when they came to your iiomes ? — The number abo\ e the age of 21, of the registered women, was 121, and of the unregistered, C8. 3746. One hundied and twenty-one out of the 327 registered women were above 21 years of age, and 68 out of the 358 unregistered fallen women were also above that age ? — That is so. 3747. The nmnbers under the age of 21 were 206 registered and 290 unregistered? — Yes. 3748. And what you would desire to point out in those figures is, is it not, the greater age of the registered women ? — Yes. 3749. And that is shown in this return, No. 4, in the columns taking them year by year? — It is. 3750. Then you have another return. No. 5 ; what is the object of that return ; I think that return simply shows it district by district? — Yes, it shows the districts from which they came. 3751. \Miat districts did they principally come from ? — They came principally from Devonport, (inclusive of Plymouth), Woolwich, Colchester (I am giving them in the order of tlie number as nearly as I can), Canterbury, Southampton, and Porismouth. 3752. Devonport and "Woolwich stand high in the list, do they not? — Devonport stands the highest, and Woolwich the next (the same was handed in). 3753. Now, take Devonport ; what is the total number of females there ? — One hundred and ninety-five botii registered and unregistered. 3754. Of whom how many were under 21 years of age ? — One hundred and twenty-four. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 3755. From Devonport you received 195 females fallen, registered and unregistered, of whem 124 were under 21 years of age? — Yes. 375C. That is equal, is it not, lo 63 per cent, of the whole '.' — It is. 3757. Will you compare that with Insiiector Anniss's figures; have you liis Table, Aijpendi.x, 1881, No. 466 ; will you look at tliat return and say if it does not give , for the year 188 1, the per- centage of prostitutes in Devonport under 21 years of age at 15 '6 9 ? — It does. 3758. Your return is lor the whole of those 12 years, is it not ? — \ es. 3759. Not for the vear 1881, but for the years from 1870 to 1881 ?— Yes. 3760. And you make the per-centage 63 per cent. I — Yes. 3761. Now will you compare your return with Captain Harriss's return, No. 2, as to the Devon- port prostitutes, and their ages ; does that return show, including the year 1870, only one girl imder 16, six girls between the ages of 16 and 17, making altogether seven under 17 years of age ? — Yes. 3762. Will you give the Committee your figures of the number of fallen girls under 17 j'ears of age received from Devonport during tiiat period; you have that in your return N^o. 5 ; have you not received altogether 29 girls under 17 yeai's of age, between 14 and 17? — Yes. 3763. And of those how many were diseased? — Five were diseased. 3764. Were those five registered or un- registered ? — They were unregistered. 3765. And I understand you would argue that this return of yours confutes, if it is to be believed, the police statistics, as far as Devonport is concerned, and supports the evidence of the heads of the local police of Devonport, Plymouth, and Stonehouse ? — Yes, as to the e.xistence of registered or clandestine prostitution. 376G. And especially of juvenile prostitution? — And also as to juvenile prostitution it appears to me quite to do so. 3767. When was the greater part of the cases from Plymouth received by you ; was it soon after 1870, or in the later years?— Soon after J 870 ; there have not been so many of late 3768. What is the reason of that diminution ? — The person from whom we received those young people, a INIr. Marshall, who interested himself in their rescue, found his efforts completely frustrated, so he ceased to send women to us. 3769. Without going into the merits of the case as regarded Mr. Mai'shall's efforts, he found his rescue proceedings made difficult, and in con- sequence of his discontinuing to send cases to you you no longer received them? — That is so. 3770. I understand you to say, with regard to Mr. Marshall, that he was not your jiaid agent, in fact he was not your agent? — lie was not, but we assisted Mr, Marshall very extensively in the first few years of his being there by paying the expenses of the women to London, costing about 1 /. a head. We placed every reliance upon him, and never bad any reason whatever to repent it, 3771. I ilnderstand that he was engaged in this work of rescue, that he sent the women to your home, and that you jjlaced every reliance upon him. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 153 21 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, him, and had never any reason to regret it ? — Tliat is so. 3772. You are aware, are you not, that police witnesses were cross-examined before this Com- mittee as to the character of Mr. Marshall as an unfit person ? — I cannot remember that I heard that. 3773. I can inform you that, though Mr. Marshall has not been before the Committee, three police witnesses were cross-examined before the Committee as to his character, with the view of showing that he was not a fit person to be trusted with the duty of rescumg those women ; I ask you what is your experience ?^— I only say that we placed every reliance upon him, and had never in all our transactions with him the slightest doubt of his honesty or straightforward and Christian character, and have not to this day any reason to doubt it. 3774. Now, taking Woolwich, will you refer to your return ; you have, have you not, the number of 112 fallen females received from "Woolwich ? — Yes. 3775. How many were under 21 years of age ? — I find no fewer than 90. 3776. That is to say, aboutSO percent.? — Yes. 3777. Now, during that period, how many fallen girls under 16 years of age did you receive from Woolwich? — We received 12 under the age of 16 ; the entire number of fallen women re- ceived from Woolwich being 112. 3778. And but 12 girls under the age of 16 ; now can you refer to Captain Harris's Report, and tell me how many he gives during that period of registered women under the age of 16?— Four. 3779. The number of registered fallen females under 16 years of age in Woolwich, in Captain Harris's Return, is four, and your own society re- ceived 12, whether registered or unregistered ? — Yes. 3780. I take it that in your opinion those figures are a corroboration of the evidence of Mr. Krause before the commission on the subject of juvenile prostitution ? — Yes ; the matron of the home who has sent those girls to us, could also, if examined, give corroborative evidence. 3781. Could you take all the subjected stations together in Captain Harris's Return from 1870 to 1880, and tell us how many prostitutes you find registered under 16 years of age ; do you find 58 ? — I find 68 under 16 years of age. 3782. Now does not your return show that you actually received 79 girls under that age from only some of those stations ? — It does. 3783. Your return includes the year 1881, does it not ? — It does ; and there were in the year 1881 two cases, and therefore those must be excluded from the total. 3784. Therefore your number would be 77. You received 77 girls under 16 years of age from those districts in a period during which, accord- ing to Captain Harris, only 68 under that age were on the register ? — That is so. 3785. Can you give the Committee a return of girls not classified as fallen, but in dangerous and uncertain conditions, received by you from the subjected districts during the same period ? — Yes, this is a copy of it. ( The same ivas handed in.) 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 3786. Can you give the Committee a return of the ages of the girls in those years ? — Yes, No. 7 is a return of the ages. {The same was handed in.) 3787. You call these unfallen women, because, as you have already explained to us, you classify them according to their own statements and ad- missions ; but out of that total of 234, the vast majority of whom are under 1 8 years of age, in how many cases do you believe that an immoral life had been already commenced ? — We find, in going through our books, taking into considera- tion the circumstances in which each was placed together with the statements of those who sent them to us, that there were 108 who had com- menced an immoral life, who had, if not by their own actual admission, yeij as stated by their friends, and by those who sent them to us, fallen from the paths of virtue. 3788. Would they be necessarilv prostitutes ? — No. 3789. Therefore, it would not be the duty of the_ police necessarily to place them upon the register ?— No, nor did we feel it right to place them in homes for the fallen, inasmuch as their fall was so recent, and if I may so teim it, so light in extent in comparison with the others, lest they should be corrupted by those who had gone further than themselves. 3790. The returns you placed before the Committee show a very marked diminution of late years in the number of registered women whom you have received ; that is not simply due to the fact that you no longer receive them from Mr. Marshall's agency at Devonport, is it ? — It is not. 3791. To what other cause is it due ; have you been disinclined to receive that class of case ? — Yes ; owing to the great difficulty of dealing with the registered women from their influence upon, the other inmates of the home, we have found it undesirable to receive them. 3792. Then you have found a distinct differ- ence of character In the registered women, as compared with the unregistered ? — We have. 3793. Which you do not attribute to their great age ?— No. 3794. You attribute it partly to the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts, do you not ? — We do; to the examination, and all the incidents connected with the examination. 3795. You have been applied to sometimes to take those registered girls, have you not ; have you ever been applied to from Chatham? — I have. I have a letter from Miss Webb, the matron, the excellent matron I may say, of the Chatham Lock Hospital, of a recent date ; two letters. In fact, if I might be permitted to read them. 3796. Before you read those letters let me put another question with regard to the opinion that you have now expressed about the irreclaim- abillty and the evil Influence upon others of the registered women ; do you know that that opinion Is shared by other rescue societies ? — I know it to be. Institutions In London formed for the rescue of women, I believe generally ex- clude them upon the same grounds as we exclude them. It is so with the London Female Peni- tentiary, and another Instltutloa the secretary U of 154 MIMTIS OK I-.VIDKNCK lAKKN RKFORK IHK 21 April 1882.] Mr. Cooi'EK. ( 'oiifiiiiifid. Mr. Stansfebi — continued, of wliich is Mr. Tliomas, the largest institution next to our own in London : and it is so with the Honies of Hope : in fact, I think it is guncrally so : they find these women to be such a source of corrujjtion to the others that they are obliged to choose others in preference to them ; and moreover, Miss Stocken, the matron of the home at Plymouth, who received a largo number from the hospitals, called u))on me the otiier day, and stated that the hardening effect of the examina- tion wa.-^ such as to make the work almost hope- less there. 3797. You were going to read to the Committee a letter that you received from the institution at Chatham ? — The letter I received irom Miss Webb was as follows : " Lock Hospital, Chatham, 22nd February 1882. — Dear Sii-, — We often have young girls who wish to go to your six months' homes, but having been informed that you decline taking them from the Government Lock hos- pitals. I have refrained from apjilying to them. I have, however, come to the determination of writing to you, plainly .asking the question, as I •can hardly imagine a charitable society like yours refusina aid to girls who stray in here from .all parts of the kingdom, and who wish to be re- formed : and I feel nothing but a confirmation of the report that such are refused admission to the Society's Homes from you will convince me." 3798. To that letter, which you have just read to us from Miss Webb, you replied, declining, as 1 understand, to take Lock Hospital jiatients, and did you receive a reply from her? — I did. :^799. What was that reply ? — The reply was, " Lock Hosjiital, Chatham, 27th February 1882. — Dear Sir, — Thank you for your letter .ind boiued. Cliairman — continued, thicatcned them with iraprisonment if they did not sign ? — I do not go as far as that. 3900. How far do you go ? — I go as far as this, that tiie police threatened them with bring- ing them before the magistrates if they did not sign. May I make this addition, tiiat the women understand bringing before a magistrate to be, as 1 gatiier from them, synonymous with im- prisonment. Dr. Fiirqnharson. 3901. Was that your own impression, or was that the impression conveyed to them by the police ? — That is the impression conveyed to me by the women, together with the impression fixed upon my mind by others who sent them to us, who knew the circumstance of the case. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 3902. May I ask if the impression conveyed to you by the women was that if they did not come up for voluntary examination they would be imprisoned? — Yes. Chairman. 3903. Do you mean to say that those women told you that the police conveyed to them the impression that they would be imprisoned ? — The impression that these women have, from my ex- perience, is this, that when they get in the hands of the j)olice, they being in a fearful state of terror, and misunderstanding much of what the police say, feel themselves completely in the power of the police, and that if the police tell them they will have to bring them before the magistrates unless they sign this paper, in their minds it means imprisonment ; it means punishment; that is quite the impression I have gathered. Mr. Slansfdd. 3904. I suppose you could if it were thought necessary, give specific statements made to you by the women? — I could if it were thought necessary. Mr. O.'t/joi-ne Morf/an. 3905. i'ou have used the expression "fallen women," very frequently ; I presume by " fallen women," you do not necessarily mean ])rofe3sioaal prostitutes, do you ? — I take " fallen women " as a general term to distinguish them from the imfallen ; that is, the women who have not gone astray. 3906. You would take a woman who had once gone wrong " a fallen woman," would you not ? — Decidedly. 3907. Any woman who had deviated from the path of virtue once is a fallen woman ? — Yes. 3908. I need hardly ask whether there is not a wide difference between a "fallen woman" in the sense in which you use the term, and a prostitute ? — There is this much difference, inas- much as a woman may have fallen repeatedly, and not be a professed prostitute. I have known hundreds and thousands of women who have been in the practice for years, but have not been common prostitutes. 3909. i'ou would include those who get a living as well as those who do not get a living by Mr. Osborne Moraan — continued, vice ; in other words, unprofessional as well as professional prostitutes ? — Yes. 3910. You have i>ut in a good many returns ; will you inform me by whom those returns have been compiled ? — All the foundation of the returns was prepared by myself; I have had to look through the history of 5,000 wt)meu to get at the foundation of these returns. 3911. Have those returns been checked? — They have been checked by my assistants. 3912. Therefore you may say they have not been checked in the sense of having been before the public : they have l)een " manufactured" to use the -word not in the least in an offensive sense in your ofttee ? — We have had no opponent to check them certainly, but they have been com- piled from actual experience. 3913. You have spoken of the register; you are aware that the register is a private document and not open to inspection by anybody? — That is so. 3914. You have never seen It? — No. 3915. And in arriving at the conclusion that a woman is or is not upon the register, you go mainly by her own statement ; what evidence have you to check that statement? — We have the evidence of it in this form ; it comes to us from the person or pei'sons who send young women to our care ; it comes to us from their own lips in answer to questions put in a form especially adapted to elicit the truth; as for instance by this question: "How many times have you been in a Lock Hospital ? how many times have you been in the Royal Albert Hos- pital ? " and we find that in almost every instance, scarcely with an exception, we elicit the truth by not allowing the girl to see what our object is in obtaining the information. 3916. You cross-examine her, in fact ? — We cross-examine her ; but having first shown her that we are so far her friends, that whatever her offence may have been, it will not prevent lier well-doing in any case in which we can forward it. 3917. You will agree that most of those women are not very reliable in the accounts they will give of themselves ? — I quite feel, after 30 years' experience, that the information we elicit from those women is the truth. After checking it and being with our matrons, and in constant communication with them, and going through all their family affairs, wo believe that they do tell the truth in this matter, with exceptions, and especially in those matters in which there is no necessity for disguise. 3918. But the temptation would be to present themselves as rather better than they have been. Now, I think you have stated that being on the register is the cause of more or less degradation ? — Those women are quite ignorant how the in- formation affects us; they may not know but that being on the register would be rather a source of confidence by us in them, so that there is no tem])tation afforded for any misstatements. 3919. Do not you suppose that a good many of those women come from the subjected or pro- tected districts in order that they may not be placed upon the register? — I have no doubt they do, to escape the register. 3920. So that probably some of those women whom you put down as unregistered would be women SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 161 21 April 1882.] Ml-. COOPEK. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — coutinued. women who have come from the subjected districts for the purpose of escaping from the register ? — No doubt that would be so ; for they could not conceal their clandestine course for an unlimited time, and then they would seek to get away from the district. 3921. Does not it strike you that this is not quite a fair comparison between the registered and the unregistered women. The registered women all belong to what I may call the profes- sional class of prostitutes, and would natu- rally be the more hardened ; whereas the others, the unregistered women, would include, as I gather from you, many women who had only sinned once or twice. Surely the comparison between these two classes of women, and the chances they have of being reclaimed, is not a very fair one? — But dealing with those two classes, I could scarcely admit that you have correctly described them. For instance, some of those we have had had not been of the old class ; but the short experience they had of the Contagious Diseases Acts had corrupted them ; and moreover, in the case of those who came to us as unregistered, I cannot remember more than one or two who had been only once or twice astray from the path of vii-tue. 3D22. I thought that when you spoke of the fallen women, the women upon whom you bring to bear the good influences of your homes, you included in that class not only professional pros- titutes, but women who from misfortune had gone wrong once or twice, and had a child, or gone into domestic service and been seduced ; do you include those ? — We include those latter, but they are so few that they can scarcely be taken into account. 3923. Do you make any distinction between jjrofessional prostitutes, those who make their living by it, and women who have fallen once or twice ? — We do not make any distinction. 3924. Can you give us any idea what the pro- portion of the professional street-walkers received by you is compared with those who are compara- tively innocent? — We receive both under our care; but in the case of those who have gone once or twice wrong, we have other means of providing for them than that of entering into our homes. If a young woman had merely had a child, we should seek not to place her in our homes, but to provide lor her otherwise. 3925. The fact of a woman being registered proves, I think you will admit, that she is a har- dened professional prostitute ; that is common ground to everybody, is it not ? — Not always ; because we, having the choice of applicants, have increased in the direction of those who have not been upon the streets for any length of time. 3926. That would apply to the term "har- dened "; but still you would agree that every registered prostitute was a professional prosti- tute, would you not ? — Yes. 3927. Even if she were only on the register a few weeks? — Yes. 3928. Nowjwithregardtothe unregistered pros- titutes, surely the presumption would be rather the other way, would it not ? — There are a great many who get a living, and others a partial living, in that way ; in lact, most of them, I 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, ought to say ; because they cannot retain their situations and carry on a course of clandestine prostitution, in those subjected districts parti- cularly. 3929. I suppose you do not know the sub- jected districts personally ; you have not lived in them ? — I have not lived in them, but 1 have seen some fearful consequences of the Acts there. 3930. You would agree with the witnesses who have been examined in opposition to the Acts here that the women who are unregistered are those who cany on some other calling ? — That is not my experience ; because when a woman has fallen from the path of virtue she is generally out of a situation ; 80 out of 90 are domestic ser- vants who have come to the streets entirely for a living. 3931. Would you go as far as to say that the unregistered and registered women are exactly of the same class, and under the same condi- tion of life ? — Yes ; taking into consideration the fact that those registered women were, upon their being first registered, comparatively young and untutored in vice, and that the unregistered women that we receive under our own care are in the same stage as those were in when they were registered. 3932. Still there is this diff'erence, that the one has been found out and the other has not? — The one hides away from the police and the other has been detected. 3933. Surely the fact of being found out and ear-marked as prostitutes would of itself rather tend to bring them into the category of pro- fessional prostitutes? — Undoubtedly it hardens them in every step they take. 3934. Given one class of women who ostensibly and openly carry on the practice of prostitution, and given another class who are what we call clandes- tine prostitutes ; that is to say, who have sufficient sense of shame to hide their culling as much as possible, surely the first class would be much more difficult to reclaim, quite independently of the Acts, than the other? — The first class would be much more difficult to reclaim anyway, but they are ten thousand times more dithcult to re- claim under the operation of the Acts. 3935. But I beg you will put the Acts out of your mind for a time. Take London or Nor- wich, for example ; you have there a certain number of women who are admittedly carrying on the trade of prostitution as a profession, and on the other hand you have a certain number of women who commit fornication on the sly, and who do not brazen it out by going upon the streets to solicit, openly for the purposes of prostitution ; surely in that case you would say that the second class would be infinitely more open to reclamatory influences than the first, would you not? — Cer- tainly not, because I may say that the women generally professing prostitution do not remain any length of time upon the streets. Taking- London for instance, they would remain a very few months in a life of jn-ostitution ; that is, in the case of a woman who entirely gets her living by it, there is hope of her, and almost as much hope, if not quite as much, as of one who is leading a clandestine course, and who has not the bitterness of having to get her living alto- gether as a professional T)rostitute. X 3936. You 162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 21 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. IMr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 393G. You do not think, putting the Acts aside, tliat the professional prostitute woukl be more difficult to reclaim than a clandestine prostitute? — AVith that explanation, I would not. 3937. Then further, you would not admit that there was any sort of good to be derived from the Acts ? — I do not see a single characteristic in their favoui-. I admit that some of the police appointed by the Acts endeavour to their utmost to rescue these women, especially in the districts of Woolwicii, Gravescnd, and Circcn- wich, and other parts, taking hold of any agency that may be placed within their reach. I admit that ; but it seems to me that the clauses of the Acts present such difficulty in the way of the police tliat it would be impossible for them to carry them out to any good result. 3938. There is something, as you would say, so radically bad and difficult to carry out about the Acts that they are of no manner of use ? — They are so utterly difficult to carry out to produce any good effect. 3939. I observe at page 36 of your report, a chapter headed, " A new piece of mischievous legislation," and there I observe a very strong denunciation of the Contagious Diseases Acts ; did you write that? — Yes. 3940. That, I suppose, expressesnot only your own views but the views of the society generally? — It does. 3941. Now, first of all, you stated that you refused women from the protected districts who had been on the register ; but afterwards you said that there had been some M'ho had been " smuggled in." Now that is a little inconsistent with the figures which you have given us, according to which a very large number of registered women have been admitted to your homes? — I was alluding then to the action of persons acting as officials in placing them with us, in answering a question which had reference to receiving them direct from officials; and I said that except a few who had been taken in by the agency of women whose ear they had, we had refused to receive them directly from the officials. 3942. I can hardly understand how, considering the large number of registered women you have, you could speak of their being " smuggled in " ? — I am very glad to give an explanation of that. 3943. I think you said that you knew Miss Webb, the Matron of the Chatham Lock Hos- pital, to be a very excellent woman ? — I am sure she is. 3944. Do you know her personally ? — I do not know her personally, but I know from her letters, and from communications I receive from others, that she is bent upon doing good to those women. 3945. Do you know that her conduct was called in question with regard to the case of a girl called Catherine Whybrow? — I was not aware of that. 3946. But from your knowledge, you say that she is very desirous of rescuing fallen women ? — I am quite sure she is. 3947. Have you ever been present at any of the Lock Hospital religiousministrations? — I have iAir. Osborne Morgan — continued, never been admitted ; if I had had the prospect of admission I should have gone to all the Lock Hospitals. 3948. Why were you refused admission to the Lock Hospitals ? — I never thought of apjjlying ; I presumed I should be refused. On one occa- sion I went to the Albert Lock Hospital, and there I saw underground cells in which these women were, as a punishment, kejit ; and their cries stifled by padded doors, and things of that kind ; I was in communication with Miss Bull therb, whose experience led her entirely to see that the Acts wore a source of mischief. 3949. Is she the matron of the hosi)ital? — No, she gave it up and left upon that ground. 3950. You do not know for what offences those women were confined in those cells, do you ? — No ; I only know from the young women's state- ments that they were not able to get out, and broke the windows, and that sort of thing, and that thty got into constant trouble. 3951. Is there any reason why the young women in Government hospitals should not be emjiloycd in useful labour as they are in your homes? — I do not see any reason why they should not, if you can get them to work ; but they are kept at the expense of the Government, and I am afraid you would find evei-y kind of opposition made to the doing of useful work ; they have a notion that they are Government women ; that they are a necessity ; they have stated over and over again to me that they are a necessity. 3952. But there is no reason, is there, why those women should not be employed in useful labour in the Government hospitals just as in hos- pitals like yours ? — I do not see any reason my- self ; but the reason I gave was rather from the women's point of view, as to their being em- ployed by the Government, and kept there by the Government. 3953. But what has that to do with their not performing any useful labour ? — Because they are kept there in a state of confinement against their will. 3954. But is that any reason why a woman sent to a hospital ehould object to be employed in useful labour ? — A great deal more compulsion would have to be employed to make her do it than in our homes. 3955. Are these women absolutely idle in the Government hospitals ? — I do not know that. 3956. Are your homes supported by voluntary contributions '.' — They are, except that we have a large amount of income arising from the la- bour of the women and the girls. 3957. You do not receive any help from the Government ? — No, we do not ; and the 923 women we have received from the suspected districts have cost us about 11,000 I, 3958. Have you applied for i-epayment ? — We have not. 3959. Why not ? — Because we would do any- thing rather than try to foster the Acts. 3960. Have your subscriptions increased or fallen off of late years ? — Our subscriptions are about the same ; I do not see any difference. 3961. I was going to ask whether your funds are at present sufficient for the support of the homes SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 163 21 April 1882.] Mr. COOPEE. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, homes and the hospitals? — Yes; I am thankful to say that we are well supported ; but we could do with more money ; I have been 30 years secretary, and I should not wish tlie work to be of such magnitude that I could not supervise it, and I cannot do the work now that I once could. 3962. You said one thing which astonished me rather, and that was that the highest average length of the career of a woman upon the streets is only 12 months; how does it come to an end? — Because she cannot bear the life any longer ; tliat is away from the subjected districts. 3963. Does she die? — She seeks escape from it by many methods, and gets elsewhere ; she seeks escape perhaps by means of a home ; the homes of London take in about 2,000 women every year from the streets. 3964. Do you mean that she is so poorly paid, or that she does not like the life ? — The life be- comes unbearable, and there is a conscience in her. There is no conscience in the women in the subj e cted districts . 3965. Do you mean that the conscience being taken out of a woman she is unable to continue her career longer ; you say that the highest average length of the career of a woman on the streets is 12 months ; I want to know in what way her career is cut short at the end of that time ; is it by disease, or death, or conscience? — By con- science ; I have already stated that she en- deavours to escape from it, not being able from many reasons to bear the life any longer. 3966. Do you mean to say that the absence of conscience only lasts 12 months, and that at the end of that time her conscience returns, and induces her to abandon that life ; I sliould have thought it was the other way, that at the end of that time she became hardened and more in- clined 10 adhere to it ? — It is not so ; apart from the Acts, these women have a sense of shame when they enter that course, and that sense of shame increases as time goes on, and as the woman has the opportunity of leaving. But I do Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, not mean, of course, to draw a hard-and-fast line of 12 months; it may be six weeks in one case, six months in another, and so on. 3967. You would say that the longer a woman pursued the trade the more acute her conscience would become, and that at the end of six months, or 12 months, her conscience becomes so acute that she is driven to give up the life ? — It may be that she waits until siie gets an opportunity, or until somebody lays hold of her. There are a thousand ways in which a woman who has en- tered upon the path of wrong is brought to a consciousness that she has done wrong, and that it is best for her to quit lier evil course. 3968. l^ou would say that but for the Acts the chances are that before the end of the 12 months at the furthest a woman would be snatched from her evil life, is that so? — ^Yes ; quite so. 3969. And that even if no external influences are brought to bear upon her, her conscience be- fore the end of that time becomes so active that she voluntarily abandons the life as intolerable ? . — That is so. Mr. Ernest Noel. 3970. It is not only their conscience, but the general misery of the life, I suppose? — A gene- ral sense of the wrong. 3971. There are other accompaniments of the life which are exceedingly miserable ; so that after a time a woman, if she sees any chance of escaping, takes that chance of escaping which she would not have taken at the first moment ? — That is so. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 3972. What is the average number of beds daily occupied in your hospital ? — We have now about 12 inmates in the Lock department, and we have room for 25, but the remainder of the 25 beds are all occupied by those who have reco- covered. 0.75. X2 ]G4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tucsdaij, '2:>t/i April 188i MEMHEKS PUESENT; !Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 3Ii-. Burt. Dr. Cameron. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Shau'rhncssj'. Mr. Stansfeld. Colonel Tottenham. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chaiu. Mr. Daniel CoorER, re-calleil ; and further Examined. Dr. Farqiihurson. 397.3. I THINK, as far as I can make out, you have about 25 beds in your Lock department ? — Yes. 3974. You have 12 patients actually under treatment ? — Yes, at the )ircscnt time. 397o. Are the rest convalescent, waiting for their discharge? — Yes, those who have recovered from treatment and arc waiting, it may be a con- siderable time, until they can be placed in situa- tions. Ours, as distinguished from an ordinary hospital, is one in which we retain young women, with rare exceptions, until we can recommend them to situations, i.e., until they have earned a character, and justified us in speaking well of them. 3976. Then are the hospital and the Home one and the same ? — Quite so. 3977. Then there is no difference made in the wards between the sick and those who are not in that condition ? — Not the slightest. 3978. Then in that case, of course, the medical part of the hospital is entirely restricted to women who have expressed a desire to reform ? — The medical department is entirely restricted to those who are diseased. 3979. Do they come directly to the hospital, the same as tliey would come to any other Lock Hospital, without passing through the Home first ? — They do not come to the place ; they come to our offices in the same way as the young women at the Lock Hospital in the Ilarrow-road come to Dean-street for admission. 3980. You do not jiass them through the Home first?— Xo. 3981. Tlicy are merely admitted on account of their condition of disease? — Quite so. In some instances, as I think I stated, they have gone to the Homes, and been found there, through the matron's discriminating observation, to be in a state of disease, and then have been sent to the hospital through us. 3982. Wiiat do you mean by the discriminating observation of the matron ? — I wanted to convey to you the idea that we do not submit any of these young women to a medical examination on their admission to our care. 3983. But then, how does the discriminating observation of the matron enable her to detect Dr. Farqiihnrson — continued, disease without examination ? — It is not easy for me to point that out. Slie sees signs of disease upon the women's clothes, I supj)Ose, and she is open to hear remarks from the other iinnates of the Home, and by one tiling and another she ascertains it, and sometimes by their de- meanour, and tlieir apparent state of ill-health outwardly. 3984. Of these Q5 clandestine women who were admitted in a state of disease, did any of tiicm voluntarily confess their disease, or was it all discovered by the discriminating observation of the matron, and other means ? — That only ap- plies to a very few. By far the majority of those who came to us came to us admitting that they were diseased ; and those were comparatively few who, having entered the Home, left it to be found out that tliey were diseased. 3985. I think you admit that your hospital is sometimes rather deficient in funds? — I do not think I have admitted that ; I should be very sorry to admit it. 3986. In your evidence on Tuesday you said, " I am sorry to say that we are sometimes defi- cient in funds?"— That that must have had re- ference to the society generally. I intended that remark to apply to the society's funds generally. 3987. Then you have plenty of money to keep up the hospital itself? — We find that it attracts special gilts, possibly more than the general operations of the Home ; it may be because It Is comparatively new. 3988. Supposing that j-ou wished to extend it, and that you found that the needs of the populace were so great that you wanted to add 50 more beds, do you think that the public would respond? — I think so. In giving that answer I admit that there is a reluctance on the part of the public to respond to appeals for Lock hos]iitals generally, and I attribute It to the fact that there is a want of energy put forth to save those giils from their evil courses. For Instance, I should not su])pose that the public would contribute to a hospital which dealt with girls received under the Contagious Diseases Acts, because of the few who are really reformed under those Acts. 3989. We find at the present time that In the London SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 165 25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. Dr. Farguharson — continued. London Lock Hospital the voluntary side is largely crippled, and that they have a large number of beds which they are obliged to keep empty on account of the want of funds, but I never heard any remarks made about the want of energy of the chairman. Lord Kinnaird, and the other officers of the society ? — I think, so far as the public may be aware of the fact, that the Lock Hospital receives women under the Conta- gious Diseases Acts with the feeble results follow- ing; it may have deterred the public from supporting it. I am quite aware that they have issued very special appeals for the Lock Hospital in London. I am afraid to say it, but I cannot help saj'ing that if the public were generally aware of their receiving Government aid with women under the Contagious Diseases Acts, they would find the obtaining of funds more difficult still. I do not wish that they should find it more difficult, but I am afraid that that would be the consequence. 3990. But, in the face of that undoubted fact, do you not think that it would be rather difficult to establish, by voluntary effijrt, a large number of Lock hospitals throughout the country? — I do not, if it were done consistently with the plan which we have adopted, of seeking the refoi-ma- tion of the women ; not merely receiving them and curing them, and turning them out careless of what became of them, but with the evident desire to save the women from a bad course of life. 3991. Then you think that funds would flow in freely ? — I have no doubt of it ; but if there were instances in towns where the funds did not flow in from a voluntary source, 1 should not hesitate to say that it was a call upon the Govern- ment to give subsidies to such hospitals. 3992. But you are aware that all the large hospitals of London, except those which are en- dowed, lead a very struggling life, and are hardly able to keep their heads above water; do you think that the benevolence of the public would be sufficient to maintain a great increase of the Lock Hospital accommodation over England ? — So far as Lock Hospital accommodation is needed. My own impression is that it is not so greatly needed as the question would imply ; but so far as Lock Hospital accommodation is needed in London, if the thing was represented to the Christian and benevolent public in the right way, I have no doubt that the funds would be forth- coming. I may say tliat we have less difficulty in getting funds than the unendowed hospitals of London. We scarcely ever issue any appeal. 3993. But the unendowed hospitals of London are all in a very struggling condition at this moment; the London Hospital and the other hospitals in London are sending out very urgent appeals, as we know well ; and a great many of them are obliged to close their wards from time to time, and, in fact, are making the most urgent appeals every day. In the face of that great difficulty of supporting hospitals, about which there can be no possible doubt in the public mind, do you think that the public would respond liberally to the establishment of large Lock hospitals all over the country ? — I think the public would liberally respond to appeals for the establishment of Lock hospitals, in the form of 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued, our hospital, or in the form of the small Lock Hospital in Bristol, because of the immense results following in the reformation of those women. 3994. Then how is it that your rescue society, which is doing so much good, is in want of funds, as you admitted ? — I think T stated that, speaking personally, after 30 years of exertion, it would be beyond my ability to supervise an increased number of homes and accommodation besides ; because I ought to say that in addition to the rescue work we have servants' homes, which shelter 1,300 servants in the course of the year who might fall into danger ; then I have under my care an Orphanage ; and my time is so fully filled up that I do not think the Committee could put upon me any additional duties or responsi- bilities beyond those which I have. But I believe if small institutions were established generally thi-oughout the country, on the same principle as ours, they would be well supported. 3995. But why should other institutions, started upon the same basis, be more successful than your own institution, which we have every reason to believe is admirably worked, but which you eay is sometimes deficient in funds ? — When I say that it Is deficient iu funds, I mean that we have to refuse applicants ; but I revert to my former answer, that I could not supervise a larger amount in my feeble state of health than I have, and I think it is better that new institutions should be established than that so much should be put upon one man. 3996. Tlien does not that reply of yours give rather a false estimate, of course inadvertently, because you say, " I am sorry to say we are some- times deficient in funds (though I liave not any complaint to make against the public in that respect), and our reception of inmates is limited accordingly." That is a very definite state- ment? — Yes, it may be sometimes, but generally T think I ought to say that we are well supported. We could do with more. 3997. Do you think that patients come now early enough to a voluntary hospital, and volun- tarily interrupt a perhaps flourishing business, to come for treatment unless they are obliged 1 — The question must have reference to the women who are not in business. They have not a flourish- ing business ; their business is the very reverse of being flourishing; and they eke out a miser- able existence by the proceeds of their bad trade, sometimes in a half-starved condition, very un- like the women who are found in the subjected districts, who are comparatively well-to-do, and well-dressed, and well-fed, and well-housed. 3998. Then you think that they come suffi- ciently early ; does not the fact of those 65 clandestine women coming to your hospital in a. state of disease rather militate against that theory of yours ? — I think not. 3999. And there was a certain number whO' had not announced that they were suff'ering from the disease, but in whose cases I think the disease was detected, you say, by the matron ? — They were in a state of destitution, and, as I have already said, conscience-smitten, and wrought upon by the course of misery which they had followed; and they sought us with a view of X 3 getting 166 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN 15EFOKE TUE 25 April 1882.] Mr. CoopEu. [_ContiHuef]. Dr. Farquharson — continued. <»ctting a shelter in a home, and they either con- i'cssed tliemselves at tlic time to he diseased, or a very sliort time after admission, and were aihnittcd to tlic hospital. 4000. Then we distinctly understand that there is no form of examination carried on hy the matron? — Not any ; we particularly avoid it. •1001. She docs not even look at their clothes? — Not in the slightest ; we never fail to discover that a woman is diseased within a very short time of her admission. 4002. Is it not the ease that a great many women do not know when they arc diseased? — I have heard so, and it may he the case; some of those who arc admitted to our Homes are miaware at the time of their admission of their being in a state of disease, but I presume it is (not being a medical man I do not know) that the disease develops, and in a very short time shows itself. 400.3. I do not like to go into hygienic points, because we are not now on that branch of the question ; but I may mention that the most dan- gerous sore, the hard sore, is quite ]iainless, so that it might readily escape observation by the woman, and of course that is a very dangerous class of the disease. The other great difhculty which has always been felt is the difficulty in keeping in the women until they are cured. I gather that, even in your hospital, where the women are under the influence of your rescue labours, 13 per cent, go out before they are thoroughly cured ? — Yes. 4004. Jjut you are aware that Mr. Lane, who has a much wider experience, says that 25 per cent go out uncured ? — Yes, I remember that statement, but I remember also (whether or not the statement was made by Mr. Lane I am not sure) that the women stayed to the extent of 82 percent., and that only 18 percent. Icftimcured. 4005. In answer to Question 2435, Mr. Lane says : " I gave some evidence in 1871 before the Koyal Commission on that point. I gave three yeai's, and it was found that in each of those three years, as nearly as possible, 25 per cent, went out uncured : ( Q.) And of course in a contagious con- dition ? — {A.) In a contagious condition. I have here a recent statement for the years 1878, 1879, and 1880, of the number of women who left at their own request uncured, or who were dis- charged uncured for misconduct. The number of women who left uncured in 1878 was 92 " ? — This is the evidence of Mr. Lane, in answer to Question 2437 : " The total number of voluntary patients admitted was 459, but the per-centage is 20"043. The number discharged for misconduct was nine ; that would be 1'96 per cent. The total number who left uncured was 101, which would be 22 per cent. In 1879 the number who left uncured was 63, or 16'75 per cent. The number discharged for misconduct was 13, or 3-45 per cent.; the total number who left uncured was 76, or 20"21 per cent." 4006. You admit that there is great hygienic danger in letting patients go out of hospital un- cured ?— Quite so. 4007. Then would you not think it desirable to have some form of restraint by which you might compel them to remain until they were Dr. Farquharson — continued, cured ? — No ; on the face of it they would not enter on the voluntary system if they had not the liberty to leave ; and when I remind you that our number is 13 per cent, only h.iving left uncured, instead of 25 per cent., according to Mr. Lane's evidence, you will see that the risk, so to speak, to the public is nnich less. 4008. 'J'hat is only, of course, your own opinion, that the compulsory detention prevents their going into the hospital ; you have no statistics to sujij^ort that ? — I thought that it was so clear on the surface that I need not bring any argu- ment forward. At all events, from conversation with the women 1 know it to be the fact that in Workhouses wlure there is such restraint they will not enter; in so far as the workhouses .are known to confine the women, the women will not enter. 4009. Do you know that merely from the vague statements ot the women ? — From the statements of the women, but I do not admit that they are vague. It is a statement of the women repeated for many years, which I have not any reason whatever to doubt ; they have no motive whatever in stating that. 4010. In your hospital who is the judge as to whether a woman is cured or not ? — Our medical men. 4011. That is to say, in the case of those women who remain, but you do not put any compulsion upon the women to remain? — ^Ve try to do what we can for those who go out. In some instances they have friends to go to, and in many instances they go out com])arative]v free from disease, though perhaps in the strict sense of the term not quite cured. What I mean is that from what I have observed amongst these women there is a strong desire tu be cured, and wherever they find a kind medical attendant and good Christian kind care, they will remain to be cured a])art from their intention to remain to be reformed. 4012. All except those 13 \)er cent, and 25 per cent. ? — Which 13 per cent- is very small. 4013. Comparing your system with the Go- vernmental system, you say that, in your hospital, the women are throughout Milling subjects, sub- mitting their minds and wills entirely to your control and to your teaching; of course you do not mean to say that those 13 per cent, of the women go out in accordance with your permis- sion to do so ? — It is against our will that they go out ; we do all that we can to jJrevent their going out. 4014. Why are those 13 per cent, so com- pletely removed from your control and teaching, which you s.ay is the great difference between your system and that of the Government ; why have not your control and teaching sufficient effect upon those 13 per cent, to induce them to remain in the hospital nntily they are cured ? — The reasons are multitudinousi The fact is that in dealing with these women we have to deal with the most difficult class of persons on the face of the earth ; we cannot completely control these women's tempers and prevent their associa- ting with friends that they wish to mix with ; and there are a thousand other causes inducing them to leave, all of which we cannot cope with. But SELECT COMMITTEE OX COXTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 16: 25 April 18S2.] Mr. Cooper. \_Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued. But vre do it to a greater extent than is done on tlie voluntary side of the Lock Hospital, and I have reason to believe that they put forth very great exertions. 4015. "With regard to riots in the hospitals under the Government system, have you had any recent evidence ? — I have not any particular individual details to bring before you under that head; but I am constantly hearing from the young women ivho have been subjected to the Contagious Diseases Acts of the uproars in the hospital. I have in my mind probably that which I have seen, more generally, years ago in the newspapers, and heard reported. I know that there is great difEculty, and the women con- stantly complain to me, not only that they are admitted when they are not in a state of disease, but that they are kept in the hospitals when they are not in a state of disease, that is to say, that they are not allowed to go out when they are cured ; and they allege, as the reason of that, that it is for the benefit of the hospitals, that is to say, that the hospitals make a profit out of them ; and that is so clearly so that one cannot deny it. Chairman. 4016. May I ask whether you believe that they are taken into the Government hospitals without being diseased ? — I remember reading a paper in reference to the Devonport Hospital, stating 500 and some odd women were admitted to the Royal Albert Hospital, and were found by the visiting surgeons there, who were hono- rary surgeons, not to be in a state of disease, that is to say, they kept them for a period of a few days, say 10 days, to ascertain whether they were in a state of disease, and not finding that they were, they discharged them. In harmony with that are the constantly-repeated statements of these young women, one of whom I saw a few days ago, a thoroughly Christian woman. Mr. Cavendish Sentinck. 4017. What do you call a Christian woman? — • I mean a converted woman, one who believes in God ; one who is brought to God ; one who is saved. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 4018. Do those women say that they are kept in the hospitals after they have been cured, in order to benefit the hospital in some way or other ? — They do. 4019. And you believe that? — I have not any reason to doubt it. Dr. Farquharson. 4020. But who is most likely to judge whether she is in a state of disease or not, the medical man or the woman herself ? — I think, probably, the medical man ; but there are instances in which a woman would know whether she were diseased ; and besides, she would know by the amount of care and attention that she received. Many women have complained to me that they have ceased to be medically treated, and that they are employed in the work of the hospital, and are kept there just at the convenience of 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued, the authorities ; and many of them, because they are rebellious and will not go into the Home which the matron wishes them to enter. 4021. Even granting all that to be the case, is it not quite possible that the woman may be detained in the hospital under what we may call medical observation, though she is not actually taking drugs ?— I have no doubt it is. Still she is smarting under the sense of injustice (and that is a matter of consideration, it" appears to me) arising from the comparative neglect of treat- ment, and her being fully occupied in the work of the hospital, that she is kept there not for her good, but for their convenience ; and she smarts under it, and it makes her rebellious and reck- less. 4022. Are the women of your establishment allowed to prescribe for themselves ; do they conduct their own medical treatment ?— I need scarcely say No to that. 4023. You say that the women are smarting under a sense of wrong, because they do not happen to get drugs at a particular moment, at which moment the doctor may not think it necessary to give them drugs; and from that you infer that the treatment of the women is regulated by their own caprice rather than by the directions of the medical men? — I was endeavouring to show the situation from the women's point of view ; and I did not refer, ex- clusively, to the use of drugs ; I think my term was of a more general character ; if a woman is left for a certain time without treatment she comes to the conclusion that she is well, and she becomes, in a measure, rebellious. 4024. In which she is wrong, perhaps ; you would not, I presume, take the opinion of the woman on a medical point in every case as superior to that of the medical ofScer ? — I would not ; but I think that there is something in the fact that those women, according to their own statement, are kept, as I have already said, waiting until they become obedient to the dictates of those who wish to get them into Homes, for instance ; it may be benevolence itself, but if the woman is cured it is an injustice, and it is worse than useless to try to persuade women to enter certain Homes, for instance, to be detained two years, some of them not of a character of which I can approve ; I say that it is worse than foolish to detain women, as they feel that they are de- tained in order to make them go into these Homes. 4025. You mean that a medical man is detain- ing a woman in hospital until he can make ar- rangements for her being taken to a Home ? — I do not mean that exclusively ; I mean that for ge- neral purposes, purposes that I do not understand, the women feel that they are kept in the hospital when they are cured of disease ; whether they be right or wrong I do not know, but this I know, that it is a very strong conviction in their minds, and that being the concurrent testimony of the women, I think there is something in it. 4026. Then it merely rests upon the opinion of the women ?— I have no other opinion, and when we have had them under our care two and three and four and five and six months, and have brought them under Christian influences, we find that they tell us the truth. x4 4026*. The 168 :MiNrTr.s oi' evidexce taken befoiie the 25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooi'ER. \_CoHtiuiied, Dr. F(irqiih(ir.tital out of the women brought in ; I saw it to be feasible, not only that the women should be brought in, not in a state of disease, but that they should be kept there. 4028. Do you think that a medical man would willingly take a patient into a hospital whom he knew not to be diseased, simply for the purpose of iiugmenting the lunds of the hos])ital ; I can- not conceive a more serious accusation to be brought against the medical profession ? — Let me recapitulate what I have already stated. It is in evidence that 570 women were so admitted to the Royal Albert Hospital before the agitation against these Acts began ; I refer to my former answers. Mr. Stansfeld. 4029. Do you mean in evidence before the Royal Commission ? — In evidence before the Royal Commission. Dr. Farquharson. 4030. "Would you refer us to that evidence before the Royal Commission ? — I cannot. 4031. Arc you referring to the evidence of Mr. Wolferston before the Commission? — I am not STire whose evidence it was. I am now speak- ing from memory. It is 1 1 years since the Royal Commission sat. 4032. I ask you the question, because that evidence was most emphatically coniradicted by Mr. Sloggett, and I will refer you to the evidence, if you like ; I think I may refer to Question 3624 ; is that the evidence that you refer to ? — So far as I can judge from reading those few sentences, I should think it was. 4033. Has this evidence been accepted entirely unchallenged by the authorities of the hospital? — I do not know ; I should not think it very likely. 4034. Let me refer you to the answer to Question 4682 ; you see that that is contradicted by Mr. Sloggett, who has naturally had ample means of investigating the question as visiting Dr. Farrjulinrson — continued, surgeon; he is asked : " Witii respect to the 609 discharged by the authorities of the Royal Albert ll(>s])ital as iVce from contagiiuis disease after you had sent them in as suffering from contagious disease; you have no knowledge of the I'actV (.1.) I think they may have been discharged within 10 days. A certain number may have been cured within that time, but of 609 cases 1 have no knowledge. I must deny the face in toto, absolutely and entirely deny it ;" do you see that the statement at No. 3G24 is contradicted by the hospital authority at No. 4682 ?— I see that it is a contradiction, but I do not say that it is a satisfactory one. 4035. All that this evidence really amounts to is that there might have been an error of judg- ment (to which all human beings are liable), upon the part of one of the surgeons, but that the women were not sent in with any delil)crate j)ur- ])Osc of deceiving the authorities; do you not think that that is a fair interpretation to put upon it; docs your evidence point to an error of judg- ment, or a difference of opinion on the part of the medical men, or to a deliberate wish on their part to send jiatients to the hospital whom they knew not to be diseased ? — I cannot conscientiously say that I regard it as an error of judgment in the face of all that those women have told mc. Believing, as I do, the statements, and seeing, as I have seen, that a jirofit has been made out of the women admitted to these hospitals, I cannot say that I look ujjon it as an error of judgment merely. Cliairman. 4036. Do you mean pecuniary profit made out of it by the officials ? — I mean a pecuniary profit made, not by the officials, but by the hospitals ; by the subscribers, if to shelter anyone from re- sponsibility it may be so jiut. 4037. We are entitled to know what you mean by pecuniary profit ; pecuniary profit gained by whom? — By the hospital. 4038. The hospital is only a building ; by what individuals connected with the hospital was the pecuniary profit made ? — The managers as a whole, of course ; whoever has the responsibility. I cannot speak of anyone individually. 4039. You think that the managers of the hospitals gain pecuniary profit by those cases? — It is not a mere matter of thought; I believe that it is shown. 4010. You do not mean, of course, profit to their own pockets? — No. 4041. You mean to the institution? — Certainly. 4042. Getting money from the Government, and thus saving the necessity of going for pri- vate subscriptions ; is that what you mean ? — Quite so. Dr. Farquharson. 4043. Does a medical officer get any possible advantage, pecuniary or otherwise, from having the beds of" a hospital occupied ? — 1 should think not ; I am not aware of any, and I should think it very improbable. 4044. Would not his tendency be rather to save himself trouble, bv keeping the beds empty? —You SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 169 25 April 1S82.] Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued. — You are referring to the hospital doctor in the hospital, not the doctor who sends them to the hospital. 4045. He retains them, as you say, for the benefit of the hospital ; why does he not send them out at once, and save himself trouble by keeping the beds empty ? — I cannot answer that question. I have stated already one reason : that the hospital authorities consult their own wishes, according to the statements of these women, as to sending them out ; that, according to the statements of the women, they retain some in order to coerce them into entering homes which they do not wish to enter ; and in other cases they make use of them in the hospitals for cleaning, and washing, and so on ; and there may be other grounds. I am stating the results of my conversations with the women. 4046. Do you think there is any difficulty about filling the Government beds in the Lock Hospitals, and that they have to strain every nerve to get hold of the cases in the way that you suggest? — I do not know of any difficulty which they experience, and I cannot say. 4047. The assumption must be that there is some difficulty in filling the beds ; have you heard of any difficulty of that sort ? — I have heard from the young women that, when they first come up for examination, it is very fre- quently, not to say generally, the case that they send them into the hospitals when they are not diseased; I do not know anything about the beds. 4048. Of course you will agree with me that there must be very strong inducements to per- suade a medical man to resort to deliberate de- ception and misrepresentation for the purpose of filling the hospital. I think you^ are almost bound to show what advantage a medical man gets by going through a course of deliberate de- ception in the way in which you have explained. You have accused the medical profession of sending to hosjjital, and detaining in hospital, knowingly, cases of undiseased persons for treat- ment. If you accuse an honourable pi-ofession of this course of deliberate deception, you are bound, I think, to show us some very strong in- ducement? — Pardon me if I say that I do not think I am bound to show anything. I have only the statement of the women to show it ; I have no knowlege myself, except through the women. 4049. People do not commit crime without a motive, and this is a crime; can you show any motive ? — I was about to state one ground of motive, as repeated to me, and that was that these women are consigned to the hospitals, ac- cording to their statements, they being young, and being new comers, in order to get them into homes ; the intention may be a benevolent one, but it is illegal. Chairman. 4050. The question is, whether any advantage to the medical men can have induced them to have sent those women into the hospitals ? — If you ask me whether there is any pecuniary motive, I say no. 4051. Is thei-e any motive? — A good motive, 0.75. Chairman — continued, such as I have stated. I see no motive of ad- vantage ; it is not for their own advantage in any degree. Dr. Farquharson, 4052. Is there any motive at all which would induce them to deceive ? — I have just stated one motive, as alleged by the women, and that is, that, when they go up first to the examination, if they are young, they are told by the doctors that a few days in the hospital will not do tliem any harm, and that as soon as they find themselves in a hospital efforts are made to get them into homes, and sometimes before entering into homes a hint is given to them that it might be well to get them into homes. That might be a benevolent motive, but inasmuch as it is not a legal ground upon which to send a woman to hospital the woman rebels against it. Chairman. 4053. Are you now talking of cases where the doctors induce them to go in without being diseased ? — I am. 4054. Then you do say that the doctors get them in without their being diseased ? — I am repeating their statements which I do not dis- credit. Dr. Farquharson. 4055. You have given us some evidence, I think, also referring to your evidence before the Royal Commission about the cells, or lockups, which you saw at Devonport ; you gave your evidence in April ; may I ask at what period of the year you saw those lock-ups that you speak of ?— To the best of my recollection it was in the spring, or summer, but it was 11 years ago. 4056. In the spring or summer of the j)i'e- ceding year? — I gave my evidence in 1871 ; it referred to the previous year, 1870. 4057. Had you made any investigation at the time you gave your evidence as to whether those places were still in existence ? — 1 do not re- member that I did. 4058. You are not aware that they had been done away with in April ? — -I am not. ■ 4059. Are )'ou referring to the same places as what are popularly known as " Segregation Wards " ? — Certainly not. I refeiTed to a place underground. I think I explained at the time before the Koyai Commission (I am speaking from memory) that those lock-ups were to con- fine women who were rebellious in, singly. Two were not put together, but a woman was put there when she was rebellious and would not conform to the rules of the institution. 4060. I think you will admit that those wards which you spoke of were known by the term of " Segregation Wards " ; — I never heard that term used there ; I can only say that, if it was used, it must have been used subsequently. 4061. It is used freely throughout the pro- ceedings before the Koyal Commission with reference to what you mean. Then you do not agree with an eminent authority. Sir Sydney Dacres, who, before the Eoyal Commission, used this expression. He said : " When the First Y Lord 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 25 April 1882.] Mr. CooPEK. [ Continued. Dr. Farqiiharson — continued. Lord went down the other day he went into the the segregation wards, and Sir Sydney Dacres used this remarkable expression : " That during the whole time that he was at sea he never had such good accommodation as Avas to be found in one of these segregation wards." Do you agree with that opinion of Sir Sydney Dacres ? — I have no doubt that the segregation wards there described were such as he described ; and, as such, I should thoroughly approve of them. They are such segregation wards as Mis AVebb refers to in a letter to me, in which she states that the young women were kept separate from tlic elder women, the less depraved from the more depraved, with a view to prevent their communicating evil the one to the other. Those I should understand to be segregation wards, and vcrj- good things they are. 4062. But that is not the sense in which they are referred to by Sir Sydney Dacres. He says : " There was a great difficulty in finding any part of the hospital in which segregation wards could be established ; " and then he goes on to say that, during the whole time he was at sea, he never had such good accommodation as could be found in one of these segregation wards. The result of his observation was different from yours ? — My observation had only reference to one ward below stairs, and was quite distinct from the general building of the hospital ; and Miss Bull, to the best of my recollection, ex- plained to me that that was for a girl when she was rebillious, and had to be punished. 40G3. As to why tlie efforts at reclamation which you say, and which we all know, have been carried on very vigorou:pose that a woman could not always tell whether she was diseased, or not, could she?— I quite think that. I am only stating their impressions. A young woman came to me the other day, and she said that the police pounced upon her when she had been in Chatham only two days, she having gone there with a soldier. The other gii Is advised her to go up, or she would be fetched by the police. She signed the voluntary submission in utter ignorance of its nature ; she was told that she had to sign, and she sisned. She said, "I was kept " (mean- ing to be placed in the hospital); "they always keep SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 179 25 April 1382.] Mr, Cooper. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. keep a girl the first time, and nothing was the matter with me." She was, she said, perfectly free from disease. That is one case. 4235. That is the girl's own statement ? — That is her own statement, and she is, as far aa we tnow, a thoroughly truthful girl. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 4i36. She does not appear to have been kept in the hospital ; was she kept in the hospital? — She meant that she was kept back by the surgeon with a view of being sent to the hospital. Dr. Farquharson. 4237. Was she sent?— She was. Mr. Osbonie Morgan. 4238. Was she kept in the hospital though she WHS quite free from disease ? — That is her state- ment. Chairman. 4239. She told vou that she was examined? — Yes. 4240. Did she tell you that she was then, as she said, '•' kejJt," meaning thereby, sent to the hospital ? — Yes, she was considered to be dis- eased. 4241. She told you that she was considered by the surgeon who examined her to be diseased ? — Yes, that is the impression that she gave me. I am avoiding the use of her words. 4242. The impression that she gave you was that the surgeon, believing her to be diseased, sent her to the hospital ? — Yes. 4243. She was then taken to the hospital ? — Yes. 4244. And it afterwards turned out that she was free from disease ? — She said so. 4245. Did she say whether she was subse- quently examined in the hospital ? — I do not remember that she did, but i have no doubt that she was. 4246. Did she give you any details of her treatment, or of what was done to her in the hos- pital ? — No. 4247. How long did she remain in hospital ? — She quite gave me the impression that she was free from disease during the time that she was in hospital. 4248. Did she tell you how long she remained in the hospital ? — She was in the hospital three months. 4249. Did she tell you that she was free from disease all that time ' — She left that impression on my mind. 4250. Did she state so to you ? — As nearly as I can recollect. 4251. But impression is one thing and state- ment is another ; do you recollect her stating to you that she was free tirom disease at any time while she was in hospital ? — I understood her to say that she was free from disease during the whole time she was there. 4252. I presume that she also left you under the impression that, in her opinion, she was free from disease when the examining surgeon exa- mined her ? — Quite so. 4253. Did she tell you that the hospital sur- geon made any statement to her with regard to her being diseased, or not? — No. 0.75. Chairman — continued. 4254. Then, altogether, you have only her word for the allegation that she was not dis- eased ? — Only that. 4255. And against that you have her state- ment that the examining surgeon treated her as being diseased? — He kept her as if she were diseased. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 4256. Do you mean to say that tliis girl told you that, although she was perfectly free from all disease, she was kept in hospital for three months ? — Quite so. 4257. Do you believe that? — I do not know whether to discredit it, or not. Mr. Cavendixh Bentinck. 4258. Have you any other cases besides that? — I have another case, but it is on another matter. 4259. Have you any other cases as to the ignorance or caprice of the medical attendants ? — I have not any case by me here. 4260. Do you think that that case is sufficient justification for the publication of a paragraph containing these grave charges against the medical attendants of a hospital ? — I do not, far from it. I stated that it is a frequent subject of complaint on the part of the women that come to us that they are kept in a hospital when they are free from disease, as well as being sent to hospi- tal when no disease is upon them. Chairman. 4261. As I understand, that is the only case which you now refer to? — It is the only case that I have here. I have not taken any parti- culars of cases. I have judged from my conver- sation with the women generally. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 4262. Are vou responsible for this report ? — Yes. 4263. But that is not what the report says. The report makes what we call a distinct state- ment of fact, that there have been hundreds of cases in which young women have been detained in hospital when they have not been diseased, and so on ; do you think that the case which you have just read, whatever it may be worth, is sufficient to justify a statement of that kind ? — No, but I believe the statement that this Com- mittee will not receive, which is contained in Mr. Bulteel's pamphlet, and which clearly shows it. 4264. Have you any information with regard to any cases which have occurred since the report of the Royal Commission, and since that statement was made ? — It is the statement sup- ported b y that of the women coming to us, that they are sent into the hospital when they are not dis- eased, and kept there when they are not diseased. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 4265. May I ask what is the date of this state- ment which this girl made to you ? — She made it to me the other day. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 4266. After what has passed, are you prepared to advise the explanation or omission of that para- z 2 graph K^O MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BF.FOliE TIIK 25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentiiick — continued, grajih fmm your next report? — I do not think I should be justified in doing so in the face of what I have stated as to IMr. BulteeVs pamphlet. 4267. Notwithstanding that since the year 1870 there has not been one single case ? — I have not admitted that. It is supported by the fre- quent statements of the women who come to us. 4268. But you have not produced one ? — I did not for a moment suppose that I should have this to controvert, otherwise I might have given the names of all the women who have come to us, and who have made it as a general statement. Cltairvian. 4269. Were the statements generally of the same nature as the statement that you have just read to us ? — Yes. Air. Cavendish Bentinck. 4270. Their statements, you say, contain these grave charges against the medical attendants of the hospital ? — Yes. 4271. At page 27 of your report I see this: " Here, then, is another decided advantage of the method we have adopted over an ordinary hospital, and most conspicuously so over a Go- vernment detention hospital, where, as is from time to time made known by the public news- papers, the inmates get into a clironic state of dissatisfaction, ending, too often, in open tur- bulence, rebellion, window breaking, and finally in imprisonment." That matter was referred to by my honourable friend, and I will not repeat his question ; but I will merely ask you whether you are able to point out any circum- stances which have occurred of late years which will justify that statement ? — I have not the re- ports of the newspaj)ers here, which I have seen, if that is what is meant, nor have I the informa- tion, which has come to me from indirect sources. The nearest information to it that I have is the accounts that the girls have frequently given of the state of the hospitals. Chairman. 4272. In recent periods have you received statements from girls about these disturbances in the hospitals ? — 1 do not recollect in later years. My statement was intended to cover the whole period of my recollection of the Contagious Diseases Acts. 4273. Except late years ? — Not excluding late years. 4274. Have you, during late years, received statements from girls upon that subject ? — I do not remember what I have received from them, but I think I must have done so. 4275. You do not remember receiving state- ments from girls of liite years ? — I do not re- member ; but I do not remember, on the other hand, to have received statements in conflict with this. 4276. Have you seen paragraphs in news- papers of late years describing these things ? — I do not remember. 4277. Therefore, as far as you can remember, the paragraphs in the newspapers and the state- ments of the girls upon which you relied for these allegations, are paragraphs and statements Chairman — continued, which have not come under your notice of late years .' — Not to the exclusion of anything which may have come to my ears since. 4278. "Which ynu do not remember? — Which I do not remember. 4279. And whatever the value of those im- pressions is, they do not refer to late years ? — Not so much to late years. 4280. Do they refer at all to late years? — Yes. 4281. Do you now say that you have seen paragrajihs of late years stating these cases .' — I must have seen them, but I do not recollect any paragraphs. 42S2. Do you now say that you have heard from girls of late years statements of these things ? — Yes. 428.3. You said a moment ago that you had no recollection of hearing such statements from girls of late years ? — I may have made reference there to individual girls, but I have received informa- tion from them gener.ally. 4284. If you have received that information generally from girls of late years, you must have I'eceived it individually ? — I could not summon to my mind of individual instances. 4285. You said a moment ago that you could not call to mind any instances of such statements made by girls of late years ; do you now say that you can ? — I cannot call to mind now any indi- vidual assertions that they have had made to me. Mr. Cavendish Benti/ick. 428G. Are you able to give the name of any case in what you call a (.xovernment detention hospital where there has been a rebellion and window breaking, &c., leading to imprisonment? — I do not remember any individual instance ; it is only from general information which has come to me. 4287. I wish to call your attention to an ob- servation whicli you made in reference to Mr. Marshall, in answer to the Right honourable gentleman who examined you in chief. In answer to a question you stated that you jjlaced every reliance on Mr. Marshall, and that you had no cause to repent it, and in answer to the following question you said that, in all your transactions with him, you had never the slightest doubt of his honesty or straightforward and Christian cha- racter, and that you had not to this day any reason to doubt it ; you remember that, I dare- say ? — I do. 4288. Are you aware that about a year ago Mr. Alarshall attended a meeting at Canterbury upon this subject ? — No. 4289. The meeting was held under the auspices of the National Association for the Ilepeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and at the end of the placard which he issued you will find this : " Working men of Cantei-bury I Mr. Marshall is a working man; he has watched the operation of these Acts for more than 10 years, and has rescued some hundreds of women from the tyranny and degradation of this barbarous legis- lation." I wish to ask you, in the first jdacc, whether ]Mr. ^Marshall is a working man? — Yes. 4290. How is he a working man ; what does he do ? — What I mean is that before he was engaged SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 181 25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [ Continued. Mr. Cavsiidish Bentincl: — continued, eiio-ao-ed by the National Association to rescue these women he had been engaged in ordinary toil. I fancy he was a sailor ; I am not sure what his occupation was, but I have understood, from various sources, that he was a working man. 4291. He says there that he is a working man : my question to you is whether he is a working man now ? — I understand him to be of the working class. He belongs to the class of working men. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 4292. In what sense is he a working man ?— He works for one thing ; he labours. 4293. We all labour ; at what does he labour ? — I do not know what he is engaged in now. I have always understood that he is what is known generally as a working man. Mr. CavendUh Bentinch. 4294. At a meeting which followed, which was presided over by the Rev. J. Aldis, who I under- stand is a Baptist minister of Canterbury, Mr. Marshall addressed the meeting, and this report, which was taken from the " Canterbury Free Press," the only paper in Canterbury which published these proceedings, goes on to say that Mr. Marshall narrated cases of very brutal con- duct on the part of the Government police, both while acting as spies on the miserable women, and while helping to carry out the compulsory examination of the Lock Hospital. I wish to know whether, since 1870, you are acquainted with any cases of very brutal conduct on the part of the Government police towards women ? — 1 should say that their conduct generally was brutal. Chairman. 4295. You mean the system ? — I mean the ■system, and that is what Mr. Marshall means clearly. He does not mean individual cases of brutality. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 4296. You do not know of any cases of bru- tality ? — I shoiild not use the terra brutality ; but I should say they go very near to it when a woman is brought up to examination, as I have seen her with one policeman going before her and another after her. 4297. Is that since 1870? — I am speaking of my recollections in 1870. 4298. All the questions that I am addressing to you have reference to a period subsequent to 1870; I wish you to address your mind to the events of the last few years, because there has been, so far as I know, a unanimous concensus of opinion, that there has been no act of brutality on the part of the police since, and certainly, on reference to paragraph 23 of the Report of the Royal Commission, the police were entirely ab- solved from any such conduct, whetlier rightly or wrongly, I am not going to say ; but I ask you now if you know of any cases of " veiy brutal conduct on the part of the Government police, both while acting as spies on the miserable women, and while helping to carry out the com- pulsory examination of the Lock Hospital"? — I do not know of any cases of actual brutality ; but it is the system. 'For instance, in the year 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck— continued. 1873, at Plymouth, I saw policemen preceding and following women who came up to the exa- mination house, and children peeping in, and men pretending to drag each other in, and all that fearful scenery. 4299. In the last five years? — I know very little about it of late ; I have not been to the dis- trict ; but my impression is, that there is and must be the same state of things now as there was then. Mr. Christien stated it. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 4300. Upon what is that statement founded? — Upon the evidence that I produced here upon the last occasion from Mr. Christien, who, a month ago, as 1 stated, went to hold a midnight meeting in the Devonport district, and made the statement which is recorded in evidence. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 4301. But you do not know of any such cases ? — I have not been there myself, and, therefore, I should not know. 4302. There is another point which is a very Important one in my opinion. Mr. Marshall is reported to have declared, in very vigorous lan- guage, " that the Acts were meant to apply only to one class of society ; that the sisters and daughters of working men were alone looked after by the police, and that women of a higher social stratum may sin as openly and more in- famously, and could do so with impunity, if they were under the protection of some lord or gentle- man." Are you not aware that it is the practice of the police not to interfere with any woman who is living with only one man ? — It may be the practice now, but it was not the practice when I was in the district ; so that if it has been altered it has been since, because I, myself, brought two or three cases before a magistrate where the women were living with only one man, and they were relieved by the magistrates. One woman was named Hicks, and the other Bowden, and there was no doubt whatever that neither of those women ought to have been brought under the Acts. 4303. Do you not know that that is the prac- tice of the police at the present time ? — 1 do not know. 4304. It is surprising to me that you should not have informed yourself upon that point. Perhaps you are aware that there is no means employee! so often to influence the working classes against the Acts as the habitual" mode in which those classes are told that the Acts arc only to apply to them and their wives, and their sisters and daughters, and not to apply to the upper classes ? — I do not wonder at its being fre- quently stated, because it is so true that the women coming under the Acts belong to the working classes. If they belonged to the upper classes such a law Avould not be tolerated. 4305. You say that the conduct of the police towards the women of the lower classes is such as would not be tolerated if the women belonged to the upper classes ; will you be good enough to explain that? — I beg to withdraw the statement, if I really said that. I understood the question, to relate, not to individual policemen, but to the effect of the Acts — that, from all my experience, the Acts seemed only to include persons of a z 3 certain. 182 MINlTliS OK KVIUKNCE TAKKN BEFOKE IHi; •25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. Loiitnmeif- Mr. Cai'e7)iiish Bivtinck — continued, certain class : ami my opinion is, that if the Acts included wi+hin their scope women of a higher class, they would not be tolerated. 4.'5()6. That is your opinion, of course ? — That is my o))inion. 43<)7. When you spoke of cases that you your- self had brouiiht before the niiigistrates with regard to women who were living with one man, you referred, 1 presume, to a period before the Report of the iloyal Commission? — About that time. 4308. And you have seen nothing of such cases since? — I liave not had the opportunity. 4309. What was the result of those cases ? — They were discharged. 4.310. That is to say, the magistrates were of opinion that where a woman was living with one man she was not amenable to the Acts? — Quite so ; that was after these women had been actually subjected to the Acts. 4311. l)Ut you are not aware, you tell me, that at tlic i)resent moment the rule of the police is not to intei'fere with such women ? — I do not know whether it is, or is not. It may still be for aught I know. Cliairinan. 4312. Have you, in your experience, come across girls in the refuge of your hospital in Lon- don who have associated with the London soldiers? — If I may give an explanation, I fail to see that there is any class of women in London who are exclusively confined to the use of soldiers. 4313. Have you come across many girls from the neighbourhood of Chelsea Barracks ? — Not a large jiroportion. 4314. In your experience of women in the different institutions, have you come across any girls who carry on the trade of prostitution about Chelsea ? — I do not remember that we have more than from other parts. 431.5. About the Tower where the soldiers are, have you come across many of that class ? — I do not kurostitute of tiiat class, and belonging to that locality ? — I quite think so, or less. 4324. You spoke a short time ago of the desirability of the police arresting those girls who were idyiug the trade of prostitutes ' — So far as it can be done. 432o. Are you under the impression that it can be done when once a woman is known to be leading the life of a prostitute on the streets, even although the police may not take her in any act of solicitation or indecency ? — I think it is beyond my province to give any opinion about it. 432(5. In making the statement that you did, were you under the impression that tlie police had a right to take up any woman who was piying the trade of prostitution here in London, or any other place, not under the Contagious Diseases Acts? — When they have the evidence that siie is a prostitute, they may charge her for loitering, &c. 4.i27. Did I correctly understand you to say that according to your view, having been taken up by the police in that way, the women could be brought under medical treatment? — I mean that, if put in prison, they are forcibly, as I under- stand it, brought under medical treatment. 4328. And you advocate that in substitution for the present system ? — I spoke of it rather as a certainty, as a thing which must take place, and as one that was preferable to the enactment of a law which would merely seize all those women at Aldershot, and bring them under the Contagious Diseases Acts. 4329. Although in the case that you put, assuming that your law is right, according to your view the treatment in prison would be forcible ? — Yes, but I have not approved of the forcible treatment in prison. 4330. But you would approve of their being taken up by the police ? — In preference to the other, but I should not wholly approve of it. I do not see any necessity for enforced examination in prison. 4331. Still you would approve, in preference to the present system, of the girls being taken up by the police and being treated in prison ? — Yes ; in giving that evidence, I had in my mind the L'cneral repression of prostitution. 4332. You have come across many cases of girls wh(j informed you that they were put into these hospitals without being diseased, and you, from their demeanour, and other circumstances, accepted their statements on that subject? — I have done so generally. 4333. In any of the cases where you have accepted SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT"^' 183 ■25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. \_Coyitinu€'l . Chairman — continued, accepted their statements, have you yourself obtained any medical evidence of the truth of those statements that they have been through Government Lock hospitals without being diseased ? — I do not recollect any instance in which we have done so. 4334. Therefore you rely altogether on the statements of these women that they passed through the hospitals undiseased ? — Yes, it being a concurrent and almost universal statement. 4335. But in no case confirmed by medical examination or authority ? — No, we have not thought it right to place any girl under medical examination ; it is against our principles. We have not sought by medical inquiry to confirm the statements of the women. 4336. You also made a statement that you believed that these women were kept in hospital for the purpose, amongst other thiniis, of doing hospital work ? — They have stated that to me, and I have no reason to discredit it. 4337. Have you sought for any evidence for the purpose of testing the value of that state- ment? — I have not. 4338. Have you sought for any evidence for the purpose of testing the value of the statement that they were introduced undiseased into the hospital "for the purpose of being brought into homes ? — I have had no interest in getting such evidence. 4339. You have not sought it? — I have not sought it. 4340. Have you sought any confirmation of the statement that they were put into these hospitals for the purpose of benefiting the hospitals? — Merely from reading the reports of the E,oyal Albert Hospital, and from what I have generally read. Mr. Stansfeld, 4341. With regard to your 28th Annual Re- port, upon which the Right honourable gentle- man has examined you, I need hardly ask you whether you had come here with detailed evi- dence to substantiate every statement in that re- port ? — I had not the remotest idea of it. 4342. One of your statements in your report is one which has been much animadverted upon, to the effect that there have been hundreds of cases in which young women have been detained in hospital, without really being diseased, during that detention ; whether that be true or not, or whatever amount of truth there may be in it, the general remark in your report was founded, was it not, upon the notes in your books of state- ments made to you by the women who have come to your hospital and homes ? — Yes. 4343. And whether those statements are re- liable or not, they would be found, would they not, if your books were examined, scattered throughout their pages in considerable numbers ? -Yes. 4344. And some of those books are on the table behind you? — Yes. 4345. Then with regard to another statement of yours in that report, you contrast your volun- tary hospital (voluntary in this sense, that no compulsion is used towards the inmates) advan- tageously with the compulsory hospitals under Government care ? — Yes. 0.75. M r. Stansfeld — continued. 4346. And you say here that that is another decided advantage of the method which you have adopted over the method which is adopted in an ordinary hospital, and most conspicuously so over that adopted in a Government Detention Hos- pital : you are speaking there of the advantage of the employment in useful labour of the in- mates r — Yes. 4347. You say, " Most conspicuously so over a Government Detention Hospital; where, as is from time to time made known by the public newspapers, the inmates got into a chronic state of dissatisfaction, ending too often in open turbulence, rebellion, window breakiug, and finally in imprisonment." My Right hon- ourable friend wanted to know whether you have any evidence of circumstances of that nature since the Report of the Royal Commission, and I think you answered him that you were not prepared with any such evidence ; but have you any doubt, as a matter of general recollection, about the fact of such things having occurred since the year 1870, and up to the present time ? — Not a shadow of a dotibt. 4348. If I stated that cases of dissatisfaction on the part of the inmates and of turbulence and window breaking have occurred in these Govern- ment hospitals since the Report of the Royal Commission, you would be prepared to believe that statement ?— Undoubtedly. 4349. In making that comparison I understand that your object was to show the superiority, especially from a reclamatory point of view, of the voluntary over the compulsory principle ? — Undoubtedly. 4350. And it was not within your object to reflect upon the personal management of these Government institutions? — Far from it. 4351. What you would say would be this, that in a voluntary hospital, where there is no compulsion, it is more easy from your experience to employ the inmates with profit to the institu- tion, and it is more easy to uiaintain them in a state of satisfaction with the treatment which they receive ? — To a large extent so. 4352. In fact the same treatment in a hospital which they felt to be a prison would not satisfy them as well as it would in a hospital from which they could go when they chose ? — Far from it. 4353. Therefore, these comparisons of yours were not meant to reflect upon the personal management of these Government institutions, but as illustrations of the superiority of the voluntary over the compulsory system? — Quite so ; on the contrary, I shall be glad to testify fi-om my knowledge to the general good manage- ment of these institutions, knowing the matrons of them, and that every effort is made by th'.m to L;et the women into homes, and to benefit them generally. 4354. But you think that with all these good motives on the part of matrons and others con- cerned in the management of these institutions, they work under a certain disadvantage with regard to the moral condition, and the chances of reclamation of the inmates, because they work in a compulsory institution? — Quite so. In our case the women are all with us ; whilst in their case the women are all against them. z4 4355. The 184 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN REFORE THE 25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. r Continued. Mr. Staiisfeld — continu ed. 435.5. The Right honourable gentleman bccan, I think, by asskiiig you some questions about the amount of voluntary hospital accominodation I'or venereal diseases, and he first of all referred to (Jlasgow, and asked you whether you were not aware that they had very few beds in the hosjiital at (ilasgow; I tiiink he said that they were 2.5. Dr. Patterson told us that in a single year they increased the number of beds to tiO, and that they have never been full since ; therefore, the 2;5 was the numljer of patients, and not the num- ber of beds ? — Ves. 43.56. This is my examination of Dr. Patterson, at Question 2895 : '• U]i to the year 1869 how Biany beds had you ?'' and his answer was " 35." Then at Question 2897 I asked him this : "Did you at one time treat many more patients than that number of beds would accommodate?" to which lie replied : " Yes, there were 56 or 57 at one time in the house." Then at Question 2898 I said : " In consequence of this state of things, did you provide increased accommodation in the year 1870?" and he said : " The directors did so." I then asked him : " To what number did they in- crease the beds?" and he said: "To 60." Then I asked him : " Since then have all the beds ever been occupied ?" and he replied : " Never ; the number at once fell," and so on. Therefore in Dr. Patterson's evidence he shows that the number of beds which they have in that hospital at Glasgow is 60, and that from the date when they jjrovided 60 beds those beds have never been filled ? — So I understand. 4357. He also says, in answer to another ques- tion of mine, that they never refuse a case ? — Quite so. 4358. JVIy Rigiit honourable friend also cross- examined you with reference to the evidence of Mr. Lane, who had expressed the opinion that 200 beds would comprise the hospital accommo- dation for venereal cases in the whole of London. That was in Answer No. 2666, in the evidence of last year, given by Mr. Lane to a question of my Honourable friend the [Member for Glasgow. At the end of that answer I find these words : " But I cannot speak positively as to that." I under- .stand that your figures do not differ very widely from Mr. Lane's ? — Not matei'ially. 4359. And you are not prepared to express any objection to the evidence which he tendered upon that occasion ? — Not the slightest. 4360. You have expressed the opinion, in answer to the Ivight honourable gentleman, that the voluntary hospital accommodation was not seriously insufficient, taking into consideration the whole provision for the treatment of venereal cases ? — Quite so. 4361. But however that may I)e, am I not right in saying that when you were arouing in favour of voluntary hos])itals your point was that they should be hospitals, to which no compulsory law should apply, no law driving the women into the hospitals, and no law retaining them forcibly there ? — Quite so. 4362. Is it a necessary part of your view to object to any payments from public sources in siipport of institutions of this Idnd? — It is; we thoroughly object to it. 4363. But do you object to the reception of ]Mr. Stansfcld — continued, venereal i)atients in the hospitals of the work- houses ? — Not in any way. 4364. Tiie workhouses are maintained, are they not, out of the poor rates ? — They are. 4365. Therefore you do not object in that case? — I do not. 4366. As I understand your objection, first of all, it is to compulsion; secondly, you object to a specific and excejttional provision for the conse- quences of sexual vice to be jjaid for out of the rates or taxes? — Quite so. 4367. But you do not object to such a j)ro- vision as that which exists under the poor law ibr the victims of venereal disease, as well as of any other disease ? — I do not. 4368. "With reference to the evidence of Mr. Krause, to which my Right honourable friend referred, you were asked whether you had any- thing to say against the opinion expressed by Mr. Krause, that tlie women no longer object to the system of examination. I have here Mr. Krause's evidence of last year, and the two last questions and answers are as follows : At Question 8825, my Bight honourable friend asked this : "But so far as your knowledge could enable you to form an opinion, do the registered women at Woolwich regard these Acts as tyrannous and barbarous? '" and the answer is : " They believe that they are a very good thing, and the regis- tered women get a great deal more money through them." Do you concur iu that opinion ? — I thoroughlv concur in that. 4369. Then at Question 8826 Mr. Krause was asked this : " I understand you to say that the registered women who are subject to those exami- nations are favourable to the Acts?" and his answer was : " Yes, those who have been any length of time on the register." That is precisely an expression of the opinions which you have yourself conveyed to the Committee to-dav ? — It is. 4370. Again, with regard to Mr. Lane's evi- dence, you were asked by my Honouralile friend, the Member for West Aberdeenshire, whether the effect of his evidence was not that 25 joer cent, of the women in the London Lock Hosjiital had left uncured iu the last three years, and to that question you apparently assented at the time. This is the answer that was given by Mr. Lane in reply to Question 2435 : " I gave some evi- dence in 1871 before the Koyal Commission on this point. I gave three years ; and it was found that in each of those three years, as nearly as possible, 25 per cent, went out uncured." Therefore the three years to which Mr. Lane refers were three years before the year 1871 ? — Quite so. 4371. In the last three years, from 1879 to 1881, 1 find that the proportion was reduced from 25 per cent, to 20 per cent, if you will look at the answer to Question No. 2437 ; in 1879 the number who left uncured was 16*75 per cent.; and in 1880 the number who left uncured was 20'41 percent.; so that the numbers are very uniform for these last three years, but they are less than they were 10 years ago? — Yes. 4372. So that you would understand, would vou not, the evidence of Mr. Lane to show that the projiortion of women leaving the Lock Hospital uncured in those 10 years, had fallen from SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 185 25 April 1882.] Mr. Cooper. [ ConHnued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, from 25 per cent, to 20 per cent., and had not remained at 25 per cent. ? — I understand so. 4373. In the Appendix to the Report of that year, I find at page 457 a Paper, No. 6, put in by Mr. Lane ; and in that Paper he gives the number of women left uncured in the years 1878, 1879, and 1880 ; and these are his figures: He says tliat the per-centage liaving increased in 1871, was 20'043 ; in 1879, it was 16-75, and in 1880, it was 15'41 ; those rapidly reducing figures being brought up to an average of some- thing like 20, by adding the number of those discharged for misconduct? — I see it is so. 4374. The per-centage of those who had not the patience to wait until they were cured was reduced in those three years from 20 to a little more than 15 per cent.? — Yes. 4375. You were also asked a good many questions by my honourable friend about the examination, and you were asked whether the women did not submit voluntarily to it ; am I right in understanding your view to be this : that the younger women do not submit com- monly to it? — Yes. 4376. And that their signing of the voluntary submission is, to your mind, no evidence of a consenting will? — Certainly not. 4377. But you said that the elder and more hardened women willingly consent because they have lost all trace of modesty in their compo- sitions, and they feel that the examination adds to the value of their profession ? — Yes. 4378. If it were the view of the Legislature that that so-called voluntary submission should be indeed voluntary, then would it not be your opinion that the consenting will, even assuming it to have existed at first, should continue? — Quite so. 4379. Can you regard a so-called voluntary submission signed willingly or unwillingly for a year ahead, as necessai-ily voluntary throughout the j)eriod of that year ? — No, and it was com- monly so we found at Plymouth. 4380. It is really inconsistent with reasonable notions to bind a person by a submission which you call voluntary during such a period of time as 12 months? — Quite so. 4381. That is a period of time during which the will may change and the submission cease to be really voluntary in its character ? — Yes, especially when it is surrounded with such diffi- culties of the women getting off the register as I have experienced. 4382. You were asked also about the deterrent influences of the Acts, and I understand you not to believe on the whole in their deterrent effect ? —I do not ; the familiarity with vice which these women acquire in seeing what they see at the examination houses through the doors and amongst the other women, takes away their dread of the Contagious Diseases Acts, even when their influence over the women is exercised beyond what the Acts justify. 4383. In fact, the action of the police can only become deterrent by becoming public, can it ? — ■ Quite so, and in becoming public, so far as my experience goes, it familiax'ises these women with that which brings them into a course of confirmed vice. 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 4384. If there be anything deterrent in the Acts, it is supposed to be the periodical exami- nation? — Yes. 4385. You, yourself, would say that, to a certain extent, the fear of that examination was prima facie likely to deter, would you not ? — I should say so. 4386. That is one side of the question ; but it might operate in two ways ; it might deter from the practice of prostitution, or it might lead to the practice of clandestine prostitution? — Itmight, and it does. 4387. I further understand you to say that that deterrent influence of the system of com- pulsory examination is in your mind overbalanced on the other side by the familiarisation of the mind of that class of the community with the practice of vice ? — It is ; that is my experience. 4388. I will put it in another way : supposing that the object of the Legislature were to enact a law which should deter young women from a life of prostitution and that were the sole object of the legislation, do you think it would occur to the mind of any sane legislator with that view to invent the system of compulsory periodical examination ? — Certainly not. 4389. Do you think that there would be any difficulty whatever if that were the object of the Legislature in devising deterrent influences much more potent than this system can ever pretend to be ? — I do not thiuk that there would be any difficulty. 4390. You expressed the opinion that young women were led astray by the elder and more hardened prostitutes ? — I did. 4391. We have the apparent fact of the reduc- tion in the numbers of prostitutes in the subjected districts ; how would you consider that reduction or that apparent reduction as affecting your view of the influence of those elder and more har- dened women upon the younger ones ? — The re- duction as stated by the authorities carrying out these Contagious Diseases Acts does not fairly represent what I believe to be the number of prostitutes, inasmuch as we have seen that a lai'ger proportion of women carry on their trade clandestinely, or at least unregistered, than those who are on the register. Besides, the increased money-getting abilities of those women under Government guarantee, and support generally, together with the better dress and better lan- guage of the women, tend very much to draw young women into vice. 4392. A young girl, for instance, an orphan, or whose parents are in extreme poverty, sees those engaged in vice recognised and not pun- ished, and sees them flourishing, as we have been told, better paid, and better dressed ; do not those facts, in your opinion, constitute an enormous temptation to female children, on the whole ? — They do, and also to orphan children. I have been extremely pained to see that three or four of the orphan ciiildren brought up at the British Orphan School, at Stoke, near Devonport, have been drawn into this path of vice, after costing the benevolent societies hundreds of pounds; and I have here now the names of four or five younir girls from the Patriotic School and other schools A A who 186 MINUTKS OF EVIUENCK TAKEN DEFOKE TIIK 25 April 1882.] Mr, CooPEK. \ Co7iti7iued. Mr. Sta?isf10 MI NT IKS (»F EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 2 May 1&82.] Rev. G. OSBOUX, D.D. \_Co7ctiiilivii . Mr. Oibor/ie Morgan — continiicd. 4835. I rather wanted to know the result of your own experience ; and I think you admit that, as tar as your own personal knowledge ot" the subjected districts yoes, you can have no such experience .' — 1 have already stated that I am wholly occupied with duties far away from them, but I know something of human nature in subjected districts and non-subjectod districts. 4836. Then, in fact, you argue rather from your general knowledge of human nature (whicli I have no doubt is very great and varied) than from personal experience, of which, as you say, you have none? — Precisely. 4837. You have expressed a strong opinion, I think, to the effect, that if these examinations were can-ied on at all, they should be applied to men as ■well as to women ? — Yes. 4838. Lft me now read to you a sentence or two out of the Report of the Royal Commission bearing upon that point, as to which I do not know that there was any dissentient : at para- graph 60 of their Report the Royal Commis- sioners say: " Many witnesses have urged that, as well on grounds of justice as expediency, soldiers and sailors should be silbjected to regular examinations. We may at once dispose ot this recommendation, so far as it is founded on the principle of putting both parties to the sin of fornication on the same footing, by the obvious but not less conclusive reply, that there is no comparison to be made between prostitutes and the men who consort with them. With the one sex the offence is committed as a matter of gain ; with the other it is an irregular indulgence of a natural impulse'' ; I understand that you en- tirely disagree with that ' — I certainly could not endorse that, because I think both sexes are eijually subject to the Divine law. 4839. But you do not consider that the ques- tion ought to be in any way affected by the fact that these unfortunate women carry on prostitu- tion as a profession, and not on the impulse of tlie moment; that would not affect your opinion at ail ? — Not in the slightest degree, because they have no right to carry on a profession that is injurious to the State. 4840. Then the only remedy that you would suggest, I understand, would be, that prostitu- tion should be put down by law ; would it not come to that .' — Not by law : by the spi'ead of true religion and by the influence of the Gospel on personal character ; by teaching men to fear God and keep His commandments ; that is the ■only way to put down prostitution. 4841. And in the meantime you would think that the evil of this frightful disease being allowed to run rampant among the population would be very much outweighed by other con- siderations ? — The lesser evil of the two. 4842. I do not know whether you have read the evidence which has been tendered in support of the Acts ? — No, not thoroughly. 4843. Perhaps you will take it from me that evidence has been tendered (I say nothing about its weight) to shew that these Acts do, as a matter of fact, deter the younger class of women from enteimg upon a career of prostitution? — I should be verv glad to hear it if it is true : but Mr. Osborne Mor'^un — continued. I have no means of judging whether it is true or not. 4844. Assuming that to be the fact, would not that, in your opinion, be something to set against the great evils which you attribute to the operation of the Acts ?— I should think not. 4845. You think that it is not an appreciable benefit to be set-off against what you consider the evil of the Acts ? — It is doing evil that good may come, I should say. 4846. You are aware that provision is made under the Acts for tlie religious and moral in- struction of tliese unfortunate women after they once get in liospital ? — I have heard so. 4847. You have read the Acts, and therefore 1 assume that you ai-e aware of it? — I have read the Acts. 4848. Section 12 of the Act of 1866 requires it?-Yes. 4849. You have never attended, I suppose, any of these Lock hospital mini.^trations, and you do not know what religious instruction is given there '■* — I do not know, because, as I have already stated, I have been out of the range of that. 4850. Assuming that these women arc subjected to the very best spiritual and moral influences while in hospital, you think that that is not a consideration which ought to weigh in the least against the evils which you consider to result from the Acts ? — If they are disposed to continue the same life they have hitherto led it is hai-d to imagine what kind of religious instruction can be given them. 4851. May we not assume that if this spiritual and moral instruction, which is required by the Acts, is properly given, it would tend to deter them from re-entering upon a career of vice : in some cases it has, I believe, done so? — And in others not. I am not aware whether there are any statistics that determine the proportions of those who have been reformed by instruction, and those who have returned to their former course of life. 4852. There are such statistics, but I gather that you have not seen them ? — I have not seen them. 4853. You spoke of encouraging soldiers to marry ; I suppose you are not aware that that would interfere very materially with the efSciency of the service ? — I am not aware of it, and I do not believe it when it is propounded. 4854. You do not think that to have women and children in barracks would interfere with the military efhciency of the Army ? — Provision is made for wives now. 4S55. But to a very small extent? — That is the misery of it. 4856. I presume that you have not studied the question of what effect the marriage of soldiers would have upon the efficiency of the Army ? — I have studied it carefully. It is determined in ray mind by one consideration, that one sound and honest man is worth a good many that are not sound and honest, but are unchaste and diseased ; he is worth more fo the country in a physical point of view, and in a moral point of view he is likely to have more courage, and to have SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 211 2 May 1882.] Rev. G. OSBORN, D.D. [^Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. have more work in him, and to work from higher motives. 4857. Then one of your remedies for this state of things, which the Acta are intended at any rate to meet, would be to allow all soldiers to marry ? — Yes ; not to compel them to do so. 4858. But to give every facility for soldiers marrying? — That is the Divine remedy for forni- cation. The Divine remedy is, that every man should have his own wife and every woman her own husband ; that is a law which cannot be contravened. 4859. You spoke of these memorials which have been signed on behalf of the Conference by, I think you said, 700 ministers of your important denomination ? — Yes. 4860. Could you give me any idea of how many out of those 700 ministers came from or have had any experience in subjected districts ? — That would be a very difficult question to answer, because our ministers, itinerate, that is to say, once in three years change their places of labour. In the course of that time a large number of them would have labom-ed in the protected districts, and in pastoral work they would have had an opportunity of seeing how the Acts operate. 4861. You could not give me any idea, I sup- pose, of the number ? — It is not possible, without a careful examination of the documents, which I have not made. 4862. In these meetings that you say were held, was any prominence given to the state- ments of ministers who had laboured in subjected districts ? — As far as I remember there have been such statements. 4863. But you could not give us the parti- culars, I suppose ? — I could not give the parti- culars without notice. 4864. You spoke of the voluntary submission to the examination being degrading to the women ; would not that also apply to the case of a woman (I am speaking of a professional prosti- tute, not of a virtuous woman) presenting herself at a hospital, say to a hospital supported by the State, and insisting upon it that she had disease, and asking to be examined? — I do not know of any hospital supported by the State; there may be such. 4865. I suppose you are aware that it has been proposed to meet the evil which these Contagious Diseases Acts were intended to counteract, by providing Lock hospitals at whicli women might present themselves volun- tarily, and in which they might be detained until cured ; I think that was one of the recommenda- tions of the lioyal Commission. Supposing that such a State-supported Lock hospital was esta- blished, would not the objections which you have raised apply very much, first of all, to the establishment of such a hospital, and, secondly, to the examination of women who presented themselves there? — Every woman who offered herself for examination would virtually profess herself a prostitute. 4866. Therefore, your objections, founded upon the inherent sin of prostitution and the wickedness of acknowledging it by the State in any form, would apply equally to a Lock hos- pital supported by State endowments, at which 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, these women might come and present themselves voluntarilj- for examination ? — They would. 4867. 1 take it that your view would he, that the more effective these Acts were from a sanitary point of view, the more objectionable they woidd be from a moral point of view, and that for the reason that you gave, that they would give rise to more sin ? — Exactly ; to "make thorn effective, they would require to be made uni- versal, and that would involve the establishment of these objectionable institutions throughout the entire land. Dr. Farquharson. 4868. May I ask you whether you look upon venereal disease as a direct punishment for sin ? — I believe it is never found but where the sin is committed. 4869. But if it is a direct punishment for sin, does it not fall with great inequality upon different sinners, inasmuch as the worse sinner may very often escape, while the lesser sinner may be struck with disease? — One man may take a great deal more wine than another, and it may affect him differently in proportion to his constitution ; I think that is universal. 4870. But if it is actually punishment for sin, is not the punishment quite out of all proportion to the offence ? — That is a point upon which I am not desirous of offering any opinions. It is enough for me to know that the sin is sooner or later connected with the suffering ; I simply deal with the fact. 4871. But you do not wish to give any opinion upon the inequality of the incidence of the punishment ? — I am not so well conversant with the details of that disease as to be able to give a satisfactory answer to that question. My expe- rience of it has been principally gained in the hospitals in years gone by. 4872. What I mean is, that a young man who has had connection with a woman once, say when he was perhaps in a state of intoxication, may catch a disease which may adhere to him through all his life ; whereas another very vicious man, who has constant connection with women, by using certain precautions, may escape altogether ; so that he whom you may call the accidental sinner is more severely punished than the con- firmed offender? — I take it that there can be no such thing as an accidental sinner. 4873. The only way in which I used the ex- pression was, that it is accidental when a young fellow, in a state of drink, has connection with a woman, without perhaps really knowing what he is about ? — It is two sins. The first sin is to get drunk, and, and having committed that sin. he is open to every other. 4874. I think I understood you to say that you would not propose to check prostitution by law ? — I prefer the influence of moral considerations and of advancing knowledge. 4875. But that, of course, must be a very slow and gradual process ? — It is going on continually ; I am not aware that it need be very slow, because every man has a conscience, and man's conscience is on the side, generally, not of prostitution but of purity. 4876. Then you do not think that it ia justi- D D 2 fiable. 212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN' BEFOllE THE May 1882.] Rev. G. OSBIIKN, D.D. \_Contimu'd. Dr. FarquharsiiH — continued, fiiible, in the meantime, to try and check the evil effects of this di^^ease, which wc cannot check by law, or of a svstcm of jirostitution whicli you do not recommend to be clieckcd by law 'i — I am not sure that I understand the (jucstion. 4877. If you wait until moral and religious training has the desired effect, do you not think that, in the meantime, it is justifiable to try and check the evil effects of prostitution on the com- munity? — I do not think it justifiable ; I think it is an unmixed mischief : judging on moral grounds ( and I tliink that the moral grounds out- weigh all other considerations) no good can ever come of doing what is essentially wrong ; and when you encourage prostitution you encourage what is essentially wrong, and incurably wrong, and universally wrong. 4878. Just one word about the question of the marriage of soldiers, as to which the Judge Advo- cate General asked you. You may be aware that if we allowed a whole regiment to marry, the in- crease of expense would be very large ? — Quite so ; but then it would save other expenses ; it •would not be a pure increase of expense. 4879. I think you stated that a married soldier ■would probably fight with more courage ; do you not think that an unmarried man, who had not a wife and children depending upon him, would be more likely to fight with courage than one who had those persons depending upon him? — Xot if he were a habitual sinner in the way of drunken- ness and fornication ; that is my point ; that the want of moral qualities weaken the men and costs the country so much more. 4880. I think you are assuming what is hardly justifiable, that all unmarried soldiers must necessarily be dissolute characters ? — I never intended to assume it, but it is notorious that many are. 4881. Then you wotild recommend universal matrimony for the civil poplation? — For those who desire it ; I think it is the Divine remedy for the sin. The highest law says, as plainly as words can say it : " To avoid fornication let everyone have his own wife.'' 4882. But the Divine law does not support your wife and children if you have no other means of doing so? — It encourages those qualities which make them no burden to the country ; it makes men temperate, and virtuotis, and frugal, and self-denying, and so enriches the country. 4883. But it cannot provide them all with sufficient means to support a wife and family in comfort and decency? — Very well, then let the State do it, rather than incur the loss of morality and the loss of money which these Acts involve. Mr. William Fowler, 4884. I want to get rather more clearly your view about the effect of the law in this matter as prohibiting a vice. You have no objection, as I understand you, to a law which does all it can to put vice down ? — I have not expressed any opinion upon that point, I think. 4885. I want to get your opinion, because you are aware that prostitution, although it is not a crime, is an offence against the law now, and that the police have directions and authority to put Mr. JVilliam Fowler — continued, down disorderly houses where prostitution is carried on : you have no objection, I apprehend, to that kind of law ? — The peace must be pre- served at all costs. 4886. l>ut " disorderly houses " does not mean merely houses where there is riot and violence, but houses where prostitution is carried on; sup- posing a house to be of that character, I appre- hend that you would approve of a law which sought to jint it down ? — Under these Acts ? 4887. Under the ordinary law of JCngland, which has nothing to do with these Acts What- ever ? — I do not see how such a law would work. 4S8S. AVc have had evidence before om- Com- mittee that it does work, and that in large towns a great diminution of the brothels has been effected by tlie old law, by the common action of the ]Kilice putting them down (apart alto- gether from these Acts, but under laws which existed long before these Acts were thought of) ; so far as that goes I apprehend that your objec- tion does not arise, because that is a simjjle pro- hibition without anything in the character of a license ? — As I understand it, that practice affords no encouragement, and no additional ficilities for the crime. 4889. It is a direct discouragement? — Pre- cisely. 4890. The question was put as if you depre- cated all interference of the law with this offence ; I do not understand you to say that, but merely that you disapprove of this way of interfering with it? — I disapprove of any way of interfering which practically encourages the vice. 4891. You were not aware of the existence of those Acts to which I referred ? — I expressed myself doulitfully upon a matter upon which I was doubtful. 4892. There was also a remark made, I think, by the Judge Advocate General, and your answer to it seemed rather to imply your indif- ference to the existence and prevalence of disease. If I understood you aright you did not mean that ? — I should be sorry to be considered in- different to the existence of so much bitter suffering. 4893. There was a suggestion made that you would object to any arrangement liy which tiie State should assist a ■woman to obtain back her health by going (although she was not ibrced to go) of her o^wn accord to a hospital ? — At the expense of the State. I distinguish between private benevolence and State provision. 4894. If I understood you rightly, you have no objection to any woman going to a doctor and asking to be jielped in her sufferings as a voluntary act ? — That is not done under an Act of Parliament. My difficulty is that the Act of Parliament provides that the woman shall be ex- amined, either voluntarily or compulsorily. 4895. But supposing that we had voluntary hospitals, where a woman could go of her own accord, and which were provided by private benevolence, the mere fact of the examination is not what you object to, because that is a matter incidental to medical practice ? — If it is not com- pulsory, I do not object to it. 4896. Your objection is to a provision, as it were. SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 213 2 May 18«2.] Kev. G. OSBOKN, D.D. {Continued. Mr. TVUliam Fotcler — continued, ■were, for cleaning up the women for their use for proiiigate i:iurposes ? — Precisely. 4897. But I understood you to say that you would object to hospitals paid for by the State, even supposing that there was no compulsion on the women to go into them, because I understood you to mean this, that if you put a hospital in one town to assist the prostitutes of that town, you must, by the same argument, put a hospital at the State expense in every town ? — My answer implied that. I did not use those words, but it would imply universal inspection, universal regu- lation, and universal medication at the expense of the country. 4898. That is to say, that there is no principle upon which to distinguish the prostitutes of one town from the prostitutes of another town? — Not on the moral ground, only on the economical ground. 4899. If the soldier requires protection from disease, so also with the civil population ? — Pre- cisely. 4900. And if the State is so anxious and so nervous about the condition of the soldiers, the State ought to be equally anxious about the con- dition of the civil population, if the disease is so terrible, and so wide spread ; is it not so ? — I can see no reason why, what is held to be neces- sary for the citizen in a red coat, should not be held to be necessary for the citizen in a black ■coat. 4901. You are aware, I suppose, that there was at one time an organisation for the purpose of spreading this system over the whole country ? — I have heard so. 4902. Do you not think that if the system be good, benevolent, and excellent, it ought to be spread over the whole country ? — I have been accustomed to think so and to say so. 4903. The groundwork of the system, of course, as I suppose you are aware, was the health of the Army and Navy ? — I think so. It began with that statement, " If you want a good fighting machine you must keep it in good order." 4904. Something was said about the services and the spiritual arrangements under these Acts ; I think I understood you to mean that you thought there was something a little inconsistent in having all this spiritual machinery, at the same lime that the whole system adopted and founded by the Acts implies that the woman is to go out again if she likes and carry on her trade ? — I could not put that better than the late Dr. Guthrie put it : " The Redeemer sent the bad woman away, and said. Go and sin no more. The Acts send her away, practically, saying, Go and sin again." 4905. A great deal has been said about these arrangements with regard to the improvement of the women, and, of course, we admit that those who put them into the Act of Parliament had good motives : but you think, as I understand you, that there is an inconsistency on the very face of them ? — I could not understand how a poor prostitute could be instructed to any advan- tage unless she was instructed to leave her calling, and then the intention of the Act would be defeated. 4906. Then you understand the intention of 0.75. Mr. William Foioler — continued, the Act not to be to abolish prostitution, but to make prostitution less harmful ? — To make it as hai-mless as it can be made in the case of the military and naval population. 4907. There is nothing in the Acts, is there, which points to the putting down of prostitution ? — I do not remember anything, 4908. I have not discovered it, and I wanted to know if you had ? — So far as I was impressed on reading the Acts, they appeared to support the idea that prostitution would go on, and that it must be rendered inuocuous if possible. 4909. Is not the fundamental idea of the Acts that prostitution is a necessary evil ? — I am afraid it is. 4910. Is not that the excuse for it, if there be an excuse ? — I have understood so. 4911. One has seen that argument frequently? — We have seen that argument frequently, but, of course, as a Christian minister, I cannot admit that it is a necessary evil. 4912. I quite agree with you ; but even looking at it from a somewhat less exalted platform, it would be a monstrous proposition, would it not, to say that such a thing was a necessary evil ? — I could understand it in a heathen man ; I could not understand it in a Christian man. 4913. But it is very degrading to human na- ture, is it not, to assume such a thing ? — Yes, and very pernicious in every point of view. For a little temporary enjoyment everything is sacri- ficed, property and health and respectability. Sir Henr?/ Wolff. 4914. With regard to what the honourable Member has just asked you, in which he has endeavour to establish by j'our answers that you consider it an inconsistency that there should be spiritual ministration side by side with the physi- cal supervision under these Acts, do you see any objection to there being any spiritual ministration to these women whilst under cure ? — Simply on the ground of inconsistency. They are there under a system which is designed to provide for a continuance of malpractices, and which assumes that they will continue. The hospitals, as I ■understand, are not established for the sake of those who wish to leave, but for the sake of those who wish to go on in their former courses. 4915. But are you aware that every oppor- tunity is given to the clergy, and the charitable ladies and others, who wish to reclaim those women, to come to the hospitals and endeavour to reclaim them, and put them through a good course of teaching ? — I hope so ; I am glad that it is so. 4916. You see no objection to that being the case, do you ? — None, except that which I have already stated, viz., the circumstances under which they receive those attentions, and the fact that the cost which those attentions involve is borne by the Government for a particular and well-known purpose. 4917. Assuming that these Acts are in force, you see no objection, do you, to charitable per- sons and ministers of religion having access to those women with a view of persuading them to leave their career ? — It is never too late for a, sinner to turn from the error of his ways, and D D 3 therefore 214 MIMXr.S OF KVIDENCE TAKKX BKFORK THK 2 May 1882.; Rev. G. OSBOKN, D.D. [^Loutiniifd. Sir Henry Wo/^— continued, therefore I cannot object to any sinner being exhorted to di> so at any time ; but I would not set up au institution under such conditions. 4918. But the institution e.xistin;;, you do not object to good persons having access to these women, with a view of inducing ttiem to leave their present course of life ? — No, I do not understand that anything that I have said im- phed that. I certainly conveyed no idea vi' that kind, so far as I am aware. 4919. Therefore we are at one upon that subject. Has the Wesleyan Conference any correspondence with local ministers; do they write reports of what takes place in their dis- tricts, or anything of that kind? — Not to the Conference. Every man is amenable to a com- mittee oi' the Conference, which meets annually, for any misdemeanour ; but full reports and details of what every man does are not pre- sented. 4920. Is there anybody to whom they send those reports? — Do I rightly understand the question to refer to ministers generally ? 4921. To ministers generally? — No, they do not furnish reports in writing. AVe assume that every man does his iluty, and we call him to account if he does not. 4922. Is there any permanent organisation connected with the Conference ; have you a standing secretary, or any officer of that kind, a man who carries on the records of the Con- ference from year to year? — The recc^as of the Conference are carefully kept fmm year to year. 4923. By whom? — By the secretary. 4924. Is he a permanent secretar}- ?— He is not a permanent secretary, but a secretary chosen annually in the same way as the president is chosen. 4925. Is there a permanent office anywhere ? — INo, there is no j)ernianent office. 4926. Then there are no means by which you c;in obtain reports from the ministers in these subjected districts as to their o{)iuions of what is going on? — We could obtain them immediately by corresi)ondcuce. 4927. Have you obtained any ? — Not that I am aware of. 4928. None that you could give to the Com- mittee ? — No, the minister to whom I applied, in prospect of coming here to-day, to give me the result of his experience in one or two subjected districts, has unfortunately failed me. I have not the document with me, or I should have been able to produce it ; it may be forthcoming at a future day. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 4929. I understood that your impression was that the object of the Acts was to make a more effective fighting machine, or rather, to make as effective a fighting machine as possible ? — Pre- cisely, and to keej) soldiers and sailors in good condition and fit for their work. 4930. But I suppose you are also aware that the object of many other supporters of the Acts was the desire to afford relief to a very suffering class ? — I do not find that in the Acts. 4931. But I am speaking for myself and others who supported the Acts when they were Mr. Cavendish lientinch — continued, first passed, when, I say, that our object, as frequently stated, was to "afford this relief to the unfortunate class to whom they were to be applied? — I have already stated that I give many supporters of the Acts credit for the kindest intentions and the most benevolent wisiies, but I entirely distrust their judgment on that point. 4932. You give many of the supporters of the Acts credit for humane intentions ? — Very kind intentions. 4933. With regard to the medical power of treating this disease throughout the country, 1 presume you arc aware that voluntary efforts are altogether insufficient to afford relief to this suffering class at the present moment ; are you not aware that the voluntary hos])itals through- out the country can only provide for a very small number of prostitutes? — I cannot say that my knowledge of the facts would enable me to answer that question positively ; but 1 should think it very likely to l)e so. 4934. How many voluntary Lock hospitals have you ever heard of? — I am not prepared to answer that (luestiou at the moment ; but in the days when I did see hospitals, 1 have seen patients of that class in ordinary hospitals. 4935. Supposing you were told, as the fact is, that there is only accommodation in this very city of London for 200 patients in voluntary Lock hospitals, should you not say that that was very inadequate accommodation ? — I should fear so. 4936. Therefore, if the Government hospitals were suddenly abolished, there would be nothing, or practically nothing, to supply the void whicli would be thus created ? — It might be so, if the voluntary effort did not increase it ; a great im- pulse would be given, no doubt, to voluntary effort if persons felt that they could relieve suffer- ing without ])romoting sin. 4937. We will leave the moral question for the moment, and go to facts? — I never dissociate them in any view of the case. 4938. That is a matter of opinion ? — I only speak for myself; but I never do and never can dissociate them. 4939. Are you aware that, at the present mo- ment, the subsidy from the State in aid of Lock hospitals, and therefore for the relief of those suft't-riug from tiiis terrii)le disease, amount;, in round numbers, to something like 30,000/. a year? —Yes. 4940. Would you desire to see that suddenly witiidrawn, and nothing to supply its place ? — I distiuguisli between a voluntary conirii)ution to a voluntary institution, and a contribution which is not voluntary to an institution of a totally differ- ent kind. 4941. You must be aware that it would be im- possible, for a very considerable time, to obtain any voluntary contributions which would at all amount to the sum of 30,000/. a year? — I have known very much larger sums raised in a very small time for charitable and religious pur- poses. 4942. Do you really think that if suddenly this grant was withdrawn, within any reasonable time a sum of 30,000/. a year could be procured by voluntary subscription ? — I think it is not im- possible. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 215 2 May 1882.] Rev. G. OSBOEN, D.D. \_Lontbiaed. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, possible. I have had great experience in raising large sums by voluntary contributions. 4943. Then you really think that if the Acts were repealed at once, it would be possible for such a thing to be done ? — I do, indeed, think it possible. 4944. Have you ever directed your efforts to raising subscriptions for a voluntary Lock hospital? — No^ 4945. Why, if it is not an impertinent ques- tion, has not that been done ? —My hands are full of other business. 4946. Will you give the (Committee any infor- mation as to whether the members of your body, generally, have taken any pains to raise volun- tary subsciiptions in aid of Lock hospitals ? — I have known them to be connected with similar institutions in various parts of the country along with their fellow Christians ; it is not a matter for denominational action. 4947. I was not speaking of them as deuomi- nationalists : but I asked you whether you are aware whether those of your body with whom you are more intimately acquainted have made any decided efforts to obtain a voluntary Lock hospital? — No; I am not aware of their doing anything more than maintaining institutions of that description in the neighbourhoods where they respectively reside. 4948. Can you name any Lock hospital ? — I am not speaking of Lock hospitals at all. 4949. As a matter of fact, have the members of your own body, or those with whom you are more intimately acquainted, taken any steps to- wards assisting Lock hospitals? — I am not aware that they have, otherwise than in their character as private citizens ; not in their denominational chai'acter. 4950. You have expressed a very decided opinion that these Acts encourage prostitution and smooth the way to fornication ? — I have. 4951. Would you kindly tell me, verj' shortly, in what way you think they encourage prostitu- tion ? — By rendering it comparatively harmless. I understand that the object is to render it com- paratively harmless, so that those who practise the vice shall suffer as little as possible. 4952. Whether men or women ? — Whether men or women ; but, for the sake of men, the women are cured if they can be cured. 4953. And not for the sake of the women? — The women are not soldiers or sailors ; and, as I understand it, it is for the sake of the soldiers and sailors that the Acts are introduced and sup- ported (I may be mistaken, but that is my im- pression), and for the sake of the population at large they would not have been passed. 4954. I have already told you that the motive of many of the supporters of the Acts, amongst whom was myself, was in an equal degree to assist and relieve from suffering these unfortunate women ? — That does not appear on the Acts, and I have no cognisance of it except by individual statement. 4955. But you have cognisance of the fact that great relief has been afforded to the women ? — It is possible ; I do not deny it. 4956. Do you think that soldiers in subjected districts, that is to say in districts subject to the 0.75. Mr. Cavendiih Bentinck — continued, operation of the Acts, indulge in prostitution more than those who are in unsubjected districts? — That is a question which I have no means whatever of answering ; but it is a natural conclu- sion that men who are certified, as it were, of their safety, or of their compiarative safety, should be more ready to do wrong than men who take their risk. 4957. I apprehend that you have not seen the Parliamentary Paj^er which was laid upon the table last year, and which is No. 13 in the Ap- pendix of the Keport of the Committee of last year. It is a copy of a letter from an officer in command of a regiment in Ireland, as to the expediency of extending the application of the Contagious Diseases Acts to Dublin; and first of all, if you do not know it already, I should inform you that Dublin is not a subjected dis- trict. In this Paper, Colonel Tucker, who was then commanding the 80th Kegiment, says : " The regiment under my command has suffered severely from this very preventible cause of disease, thus entailing a considerable loss upon the Government, not only for cost of medicines, but more esjiecially for loss of men's services. It must be within the knowledge of all commanding and staff' officers that, while the men ai-e practi- cally kept in a condition of compulsory celibacy, it is impossible for them to return to the barracks off pass, or even to walk in the adjacent streets, without being accosted by troops of largely diseased women, with what result the military hospitals abundantly show. At this moment two boys of the 80th Regiment, one under 15, are in hospital suff'ering from venereal disease," in an unsubjected district, remember. And in para- graph 4, Colonel Tucker writes as follows : " Since the arrival of my regiment in Dublin there have been the enormous number of 166 admissions to hospital of men suffering from primary syphilis, and the admissions from gonor- rhoea amount to 118, making a total of 284 ; thus, during a period of 10 months, considerably over 43 per cent, of the unmarried portion of my regiment have been incapacitated from duty. I submit, for the sake of economy, if not for the benefit of the soldiers, some steps should be taken to wipe out this easily preventible scourge"? — I find nothing new in that whatever. 4958. Except this, that the fact of the soldiers being in an unsubjected district, does not in any way restrain their indulgence ? — That may be, but I am unable to see the bearing of it. 4959. My question was, whether you thought that the soldiers in a subjected district indulged more freely in this jiractice than the soldiers in an unsubjected district ; you have said that you have no means of forming an opinion upon that sub- ject ? — Precisely. You give me the means of forming an opinion. 4960. I give you the means of forming an opinion. Do you not think that the fact that during a period of 10 months more than 43 per cent, of one regiment were incapacitated from duty by this terrible scourge is pretty clear proof that a soldier, before he resorts to this practice, does not much consider whether it is a subjected or an unsubjected district >. — Possibly not. Sin- ners are constantly and everywhere befooled by D D 4 their 216 MIXVTES OF EA'IDENCE TAKICX BEFOKE THE 2 May 1882.] Rev. G. OSBORN, D.D. [ Cojitinued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch — continued, their sins, and do not think of what they ought to think of. 4961. Your opinion is also tliat mon ought to be examined as well as women. My Kight honourable iVicnd has put some ((uestions tu you upon tiiat point, and I will not repeat them; but I wouhl ask you whether you have ever applied your mind to how such an e.xamination could be carried out ? — I suppose soldiers and prostitutes are constantly seen together in the streets. II' a woman is taken up, and subjected to examina- tion because she is seen with men, why should not the man be taken up and subjected to exa- mination because he is seen with women ? 4962. Then you are of opinion that every sol- dier seen with a woman ought to be taken up? — If it is right to take up a woman and exann'ne her, it is right to take up a man and examine him ; that is my argument. 4963. But you do not take up a prostitute who is seen with a soldier ? — Do you not ? Is not a policeman at liberty to summon a woman to exa- mination if he suspects that she is a prostitute ; and why should he not have the same liberty to subject a man to examinatioUj if he suspects that he is a fornicator ? 4964. I thought you meant an examination in a hospital, in order to see whether they are dis- eased or not? — Very well, take him to a hospital, and see whether he is diseased or not. 4965. AVhenever a policeman sees a soldier in conversation with a prostitute, is he to take the soldier up to the hospital, and have him examined ? — Put the man and the woman upon the same footing. It is the footing that the Act puts the woman upon ; why not put the man upon the same footing ; they are partners In sin, and in the danger. 4966. The woman who is a prostitute is found to be a prostitute by a magistrate, or by a volun- tary submission, and, at stated periods, she has to be examined ; how in the world could you apply such a practice as that to men ? — To military discipline there is nothing impossible. 4967. It is a very extraordinary proposition ; could you give it some shape ; what would you have the military authorities do? — Whatever is now done with regard to the women : I cannot answer the question more plainly. You give a certain power in regard to the examination of females, and I ask why that should be restricted to females, and not extended to their partners in sin? 4968. Then I ask you, how you propose to carry that out, because it is idle to make vague propositions without giving them any definite shape ? — As it is carried out now. I understand that it is carried out now in regard to one sex ; I do not suppose that I am called upon to devise means as to how it should be carried out in regard to the other ; I see no more difficulty in the one case than in the other. 4969. But you cannot summon a soldier for being a prostitute? — You can summon him for using a prostitute. 4970. How are you to prove it ? — You see him in the streets ; that is the case I put. 4971. Do I rightly understand you to suggest that every time a soldier is seen talking to a Mr. Cavendixh Bentinch — continued, prostitute in the street he is to be taken to hospital and examined ? — I am not bound to devise means to carry into effect what I believe to l}e a bad system ; "but I would take the words of tlie Act with regard to women, and apply them to the men. 4972. This is such a curious point that I should like to have some light thrown upon it ? — I am not sufficiently familiar with the words of the Act. Chnirmaii. 4973. Will you look at the 15th section of the Act of 1866?— That is repealed by the Act of 1869. jNIr. Osborne JMorgan. 4974. "Will you read that section } — " Where an information on oath is laid before a justice Ijy a superintendent of police, charging to the effect that the informant has good cause to believe that a woman therein named is a common prostitute, and either Is resident within the limits of any place to whichthls Act applies, or, being resident within five miles of those limits has within four- teen days before the laying of the information been within those limits for the purpose of pros- titution, the justice may, if he thinks fit, issue a notice thereof addressed to such woman." I understand that to be a provision applying to the female jirostltute ; I cannot understand why, if answerable words were put into this clause, it might not apply to the other party. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 4975. Then, mutatis mnlundis, I understand that you would strike out the word "prostitute," or whatever it is, and that you would put in, " Where a soldier has been consorting with a prostitute"? — Where he has been a common companion of pros- titutes. 4976. I understand that you would like to see a new section passed which should apply that particular Act to men ; and that, when the in- spector of the police under the Act had good cause to believe that a soldier has been consort- ing with a prostitute, then he should take him to the hospital and have him examined ; Is that your view ? — I wish to see the whole thing swept away; but, assuming its continuance, I wish It to be equally applied to men and women. 4977. Is that the way in which you would have it applied? — I am not bound on the moment to prescribe a mode of applying It to men ; but I have seen enough of soldiers to know that those associations are just as notorious as the associations of prostitutes. 4978. Without applying It particularly, but applying it generally, your idea, as I understand it. Is that general powers should be given to the police to subject men whom they see consorting with prostitutes to examination in hospitals? — Why not? I ask all supporters of the Acts, why not ? 4979. Y'ou are in favour of such a provision as that? — If the Acts are to continue I am in favour of their being equally applied. 4980. In that way ? — Mutatis mutandis. 4981. Would }"ou also wish them to be applied to SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 217 2 May 1882.] Rev. G. OSBORN, D.D. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, to civilians in subjected districts as well ? — Why not? 4982. I understood you to say, very clearly, that you considered that prostitution was not a necessary evil ? — I consider that no moral evil is necessary. 4983. Will you point out any period in the history of the world in which prostitution has not existed ? — I do not hold that what has been is to be the rule for what ought to be, or is to be. I hold the world to be a fallen world, a sinful world, and yet to be capable of recovery, and certain to be recovered some day. 4984. But is it not the fact that from the time of the Patriarchs down to the present, prostitu- tion has always existed ? — What then ; I want to know what the argument is intended to be. I deny the conclusion that, because it always has been, it always is to be. 1 must answer you as a minister of the Gospel, whose whole business is to turn sinners from their sins, and to tell them to fear God and keep His commandments ; and I tell every man, who asks me that question, that fornication is a sin, and that he has no right to commit it, and it is his duty to abstain from it ; and, therefore, it is not a necessary evil ; that is my answer. 4985. I understood that perfectly well; but the question that I asked you was, whether it was not the fact that, from the time of the Patri- archs down to the present moment, prostitution has always existed? — My answer is that sin has always been in the world ; but Jesus Christ came to save men from their sins. 4986. How do you propose to put down pros- titution ; would you put it down by more strin- gent enactments and by more stringent punish- ment for the practice, or would you simply apply moral means? — 'By the influence of Chi-ist's teach- ing and example ; that is how I propose to put it down. 4987. Have you had much success in your station in putting down prostitution ? — I think so. I think that, if you will read the journals of John Wesley, you will find many an instance of prostitutes ceasing to be prostitutes and becoming religious women. 4988. But I understand you to say that you would not make any more severe enactments against prostitution ? — I do not trust to legisla- tive measures ; I trust to moral influences and moral teaching. 4989. Then I am at liberty to conclude that your opinion is, that at the present moment more severe enactments ought not to be made against prostitution ? — I see no need for them, Mr. Hopioood, 4990. My Bight honourable friend has been pressing upon you the danger of suddenly with- drawing State subventions to those particular hospitals ; why should we assume that State aid should be suddenly withdrawn if mischief is to arise from it ? — I do not know ; but my answer was intended to convey the idea that if it were I should not shrink from it ; I should trust to voluntary eflbrts to supply what was wanting. 4991. Is it, in your judgment, a cause rather restraining private benevolence that it should be known that the State is, from doubtful policy, 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued, subsidizing these particular hospitals ? — I am not aware that that matter has been considered by the benevolent public generally in that light ; I am not aware that sufficient attention has been given to the subject to enable me to state, con- clusively, that any such opmion prevails. 4992. As to Lock hospitals, do you know any reason why there should be special Lock hos- pitals, or why there should not be, by the care of the benevolent, hospitals that should treat every kind of destitute diseased persons ? — Apart from medical reasons, which I am not competent to speak upon, I have already stated that, so far as I have had experience, such cases have been found in the ordinary hospitals. 4993. You were asked whether your denomina- tion has provided especially for these cases ; do you know that it has been a matter of course with any denomination to provide for them ? — I am not aware that it has ever been treated as a denominational question. It seems to belono- to the philanthropic public at large. 4994. Youi' argument, as I understand it, as regards the Acts encouraging prostitution is, that they do subsidize the cure of this particular disease, and the object is to make indulgence safer? — The only object, as I understand it; and it is upon that assumption that I have pro- ceeded. 4995. And that object is at present declared in favour solely of soldiers and sailors ? — Solely. Chairman. 4996. Assuming that these Acts were repealed, would you object to the institution at the ex- pense of the State of voluntary hospitals, at which prostitutes might voluntarily present themselves for cure ? — I should object to its ' being done at the expense of the State. That is what 1 said before, I believe, in answer to the question. 4997. Would you object to the institution of such hospitals by private benevolence? — Does your question refer to hospitals specifically de- voted to the cure of diseases which are the result of vice ? 4998. That is what my question has reference to ? — Provided it were done by private bene- volence I should very much regret that parties exercise no sounder judgment, but, as they do not take my money I have no right to interfere ; but the State takes my money, and therefore I have a right to speak. 4999. But you would so far disapprove of the institution of such voluntary hospitals by private benevolence that you would think it wrong yourself to subscribe to them? — Certainly I would, because they smooth the path to vice. 5000. Your objection then to the State insti- tuting voluntary hospitals for the cure of the results of vice, arises from the belief that such hospitals must minister to facility for ■vice? — To the continuance and increase of vice. 5001. Do you object to the establishment by private individuals of general hospitals in which women carrying on the profession of prostitution can be treated for venereal disease ? — I do not feel the same objection to that, firstly, because it is entirely voluntary on all sides, it does not take E E my 218 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN UEFOUE THE 2 May 1«82.] Rev. G. OSBOKN, D.D. [ Continued. Chairman — continued, my money at all ; and secondly, because it does not interfere with the general practice of hospitals to receive all comers. 5002. But do you not think that in so far a-s it receives prostitutes and cures them, and thus willingly or unwillingly enables them to carry on their profes-ion. it offends against the princi- ples which you have laid down ? — That is an evil for which I am not responsible, an inci- dental evil ; but it is an evil and a great evil. 5003. But would the existence of such an evil prevent you from subscribing to a general voluntary" hosjjital in which i)rostitutes would be treated?-! think not; it is a question that has never been put to me before. 5004. There is one other topic upon which J should like to ask you one or two questions; prostitution is in itself and in its results a great evil, and an offence against the moral law ; that is common ground to us all ; you are aware that the State gives a certain amount of toleration to prostitution ; is not that so ? — I am hardly in a. position to say what amount of toleration it gives. 5005. But it gives some amount, or else why are prostitutes plying their trade unprevented by the law?— It does not interfere to prevent them. 5006. You see the State, then, allowing a certain moral evil to exist within certain limits ; do you not think that, whilst the State gives such tolerance to an evil, derogatory so far from the moral law. it is the duty of the State to try and minimise the bad results which come from that evil : 1 mean in this case of the disease which comes from prostitution ? — I think not ; I do not think that it is the duty of the State to minimise the evil. " 5007. Do you think that the State having per- mitted prostitution to go on, can avail itself of the arguments which you use against remedying the evils resulting from prostitution ? — I see no reason why it should not. The State is in the main composed of Christian men, and they cannot escape from the conclusion if they admit the premises. 5008. But admitting the premises that prosti- tution is a great evil, is it not ihe duty of the State to put down prostitution? — I have not turned my thoughts to that subject, i should not just now pronounce any definite opinion about it. 1 think the lines within which the State may safely act in regard to this matter are to repeal the Acts. 5009. Then, although prostitution is a very great evil, you are not prepared to say that it is the duty of the State to suppress it ? — I am not prepared to say that it is the duty of the State to suppress theft, though it is a great evil. It punishes it, but what can it do more ? 5010. It suppresses theft, so far as punishment can do it ; but does it suppress prostitution, so (ar as punishment can do it ? — I am not suffi- ciently cognisant of the existing law to answer that question. I am under the impression that the existing law is modified considerably, and I cannot go "back two hundred years to trace the process. Chair iiKiti — continued. 5011. But you are aware that a certain limited toleration, at least, is jn-actically given to prostitu- tion by the law ? — I ilo not understand that there is any toleration. There is no direct prohibi- tion, and there is no active suppression at- temj)ted ; but that does not appear to me to amount to toleration. 5012. You know that the State does not take the same active steps against prostitution that it takes against theft ? — It docs not. 5013. But, although it abstains from using those precautions and preventatives against pros- titution, you do not think that the State i.s, therefore, bound to try and prevent (>r mitigate the evils which result fmni prostitution? — For the best of all reasons ; in ray view, it tends to propagate and foster the vice. Mr. Stansfeld. .■5014. Y'our attention was drawn by the .ludge Advocate General to the 60th paragraph of the Report of the Royal Commission, in which they di'aw a distinction between men and women in respect of the practice of prostitution, and you were asked, I think, whether you could not ac- cept that as a reason for treating women diffe- rently from men, and for treating women as they are treated by the Contagious Diseases Acts; and you replied, that you saw no reason for so doing ? — I think that was my reply. 5015. Is it not in your mind a positive and distinct specific objection to this legislation that it recognises this trade of prostitution on the part of the women ? — Undoubtedly. 5016. Therefore, the fact that they jiractice prostitution as a trade, so far as they do so, is not in your mind a reason for the existence of these Acts, but precisely the reverse? — Cer- tainly not. 5017. That is to say, so far from being a reason for the enactment of these statutes, it is an argument against them, because they neces- sarily recognise the pursuit of that trade ? — I said so at the beginning ; I think that one of my first statements was, that I objected to them because they lower the whole moral tone of the country. 5018. Y^ou seemed to assent to a proposition involved in a question put by the honourable Member for Portsn;outh, to this effect : that in the Government Lock hospitals every oppor- tunity was afforded to miuisters of all denomi- nations to visit patients ; you have no^ know- ledge upon that subject, have you? — Not the slightest. 501 9. With regard to your objection to Govern- ment Lock hospitals, and even to voluntary Lock hospitals, I understand that you have no objection from the moral point of view to dis- eases which are the consequence of sexual vice being dealt with charitably, as other diseases ai-e dealt with in the ordinary hospitals of the country ?— By the public at large, by voluntary contribution; I commend all attempts to miti- gate suffering everywhere as far as possible. 5020. But'what I understand you to object to, even in the case of voluntary Lock hospitals, would be the singling out for special care, of those specific diseases which are the consequence of SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 219 2 May 1882.] Rev. G. OSBOKN, D.D. \_Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, of sexual vice ? — To giving them a prominence, which of itself is an evil. 5021. Now, I will carry you to the existing law; I do not know whether you are familiar with the poor law ? — I am not ; my duties have lain in another direction. 5022. Will you take it from me, that in the administration of the poor law, provision is made in the great poor law infirmaries for the treat- ment of this disease as well as other diseases ? — I should presume so, because paupers are sub- ject to all sorts of diseases. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 5023. And, of course, poor law infirmaries are infirmaries supported by the poor rates ? — They are. 5024. But as they exist for the benefit of all paupers, you have no objection to the application of the poor rate to the cure of paupers who are sulFering from the diseases consequent upon sexual vice? — No; they are paupers, for whose maintenance the country has become respon- sible. Mr. George Gillett, called in ; and Examined. Mr. b'tansfeld. 5025. I BELIEVE you are a Banker in Lom- bard-street ? — Yes. 5026. And you are a member of the Society of Friends? — Yes. 5027. Are you honorary secretary to the Friends' Association for the Abolition of the State Regulation of Vice ? — Yes. 5028. I need hardly ask you whether you have given very considerable attention to the subject of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — Yes. 5029. And you are familiar with the Acts themselves ? — Yes. 5030. To shorten your examination, I will put to you this question : have you read the evidence of the Reverend Mr. Gledstone, given before this Committee at its last meeting ? — Yes. 5031. Do you agree with the expression of opinion of Mr. Gledstone upon that occasion ? — Yes. 5032. Do you wish to make any reservation upon it ? — I do not recollect anything. 5033. Is there anything that you would like specifically to say to this Committee besides endorsing the evidence upon the ground of moral objections to these Acts given by Mr. Gledstone the other day?- — I should like to say that I take opposition to these Acts entirely on moral grounds. I am not a medical man, and there- fore do not understand the medical question, other than as an oi'dinary person out of the pro- fession would imderstaud it. My sole opposition is upon moral grounds ; I consider the Acts are a compact between the State and prostitution, which I view as prejudicial in every sense to the interests of the country. 5034. And you have no further statement that you wish to make upon that subject ; you en- dorse generally the evidence of the Rev. Mr. Gledstone, and you are satisfied to do that ? — Yes ; I could have followed the previous wit- ness both in what was recorded and what was refused. 5035. I will carry you at once to the question of the action taken by your own body, the So- ciety of Friends ; will you inform the Committee of the views which they have entertained, and the part which they have taken, upon this sub- ject ? — The Society of Friends became aware of these Acts shortly after the passing of the last Act in 1869 : and at their annual assembly, the yearly meeting in May of the following year, the 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, matter was brought before the representative meeting of the society. I will put in the Minute which was recorded upon that occasion, which sums up, with instructions to all the subordinate meetings, to use every effort they can to secure the repeal of this legislation. The pith of it is this: '• In view of the debate thereon which has taken place during the present week having been adjourned for a month, and believing that the operation of these Acts involves evils of a very grave character, the committee concludes to sub- mit to the yearly meeting, even at this advanced stage of its proceedings, the desirability of urging upon friends in their various localities to use their influence, without loss of time, with their representatives in the House of Commons, to endeavour to obtain the repeal of these Acts." That was the report of the committee that gave it consideration, and the yearly meeting adopted it. 5036. In what year was that? — In 1870. 5037. Since that year what has happened ? — Almost every year since then the meeting for sufferings, which is the representive body, sitting in the intervals from May to May, and which has the same authority as the yearly meeting itself, only that the yearly meeting only meets in May, has, on its own behalf, after the as- sembly at large have decided the question as a whole, sent up from year to year protests grounded ou the contradiction of these Acts to the Divine law. 5038. What is the origin of that term, '■' meeting for sufferings ? " — It arose in the early days of the society, when so many were imprisoned. It was a committee then for re- lieving their sufferings. 5039. Have you ever had a canvass of the recognised ministers of the body ? — Yes ; in 1874 we canvassed the whole of the recognised min- isters of our society, and we received replies from about 90 out of eveiy 100 of them, joining in the protest against these Acts on moral grounds. 5040. How many recognised ministers are there in the Society of Friends ? — I should think about 500 or 600. 5041. Those ministers are laymen, of cour.-^e ? — They are laymen ; and I should say that the other 10 in every 100, most of them, declined to take up the subject on the ground that it was a E E 2 question 220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 2 May 1882.] Mr. GiLLETT. Continued. Mr. St(utsfehl — continued. question that they did not wish to handle. That was their chief reason for declining to exjjrcss an opinion. You could count on your fino;ers tlie number of those who thought the Acts right and proper, and in hannoiiy with Divine law. 5042. And I may say, may I not, that since this legislation was enacted, numbers of the Society of Friends have been amongst the most active and persistent of its opponents? — Yes ; I may say that in every part of the country, in Ireland, Scotland, and England, Friends have worked personally, and given largely of their money to sustain the cause of repeal. I should eay that it is practically an unanimous question with them. In fact, as it seemed to me, when I first heard of it, I should have thought there could be hardly two opinions upon it. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5043. You eay that your objection to the Acts is founded entirely upon moral grounds? — En- tirely upon moral grounds. 5044. And you have not entered at all into the question of the sanitary operation of the Acts ? — I have read the reports of the police, and I have read the AVar Office Keturns, and made myself as conversant with the subject as I could by reading the works of those who advo- cate the Acts, and so on. 5045. Then, as I understand it, your opinion is expressed entirely irrespectively of the efficient or non-efficient operation of the Acts in a sanitary point of view? — My main objection is apart from whether it is or is not a good means for relieving disease; but I have my own opinion upon that other point. 5046. Would you go so far as the last witness and say, that the" more efficient the Acts were in a sanitary point of view, the more objectionable they would be to your mind in a moral point of view ? — Yes, I think they would. 5047. Are you, yourself, personally acquainted with any of these subjected districts ? — I think I may say that I am not. I have been in subjected districts, but not to pursue any special inquiry. 5048. You have not been there for the purpose of studying the operation of the Acts ? — No. 5049. Out of these 500 or 600 ministers that you spoke of, could you give me any idea as to how many had lived or carried on their ministra- tions in subjected districts ? — I do not know that I could. Mr. Cavendish Btntinck. 5050. Have you any statistics of the number fif members of the religious body to which you belong ?— About 14,000. 5051 . In the whole of the United Kingdom ? — Yes. 5052. The number is not increasing, is it? — Not much. 5053. Is it not one of their views that they object to the Army altogether ? — Yes. 5054. And you think that there ought to be no Army ? — Certainly. 5055. Do you object to the Navy also ? — "We think that in a right state of things there would be no Army and no Navy. 5056. It was once said to me, on a public occasion by a Dissenting minister, that his main Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, objection to these Acts was, that they were an attempt on the ]iart of man lo abrogate and diminish the penalty which it had jdeased God to inflict ujion the commission of vice : would you hold that doctrine .' — My principal objection is that it is a compact between the State and prostitution. 5057. With regard to the objection tliat I mentioned just now, do you go so far as to agree with that reverend gentleman ? — 1 should not express my opinion in tliat way ; it is capable of a wrong construction. 5058. You do not agree with that opinion ? — I should not express it so. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5059. 1 Bujipose you would agree with the last witness. Dr. Osborn, in his objections to a hospital supported by State endowment, or State money, in which ])rostitutes as such were relieved from venereal diseases ? — I should object to the State singling out this disease in ]>refcrence to small- pox, typhus fever, and other forms of disease, which are far more deadly and destructive of the human frame. 5060. But, supposing that ordinary hospitals were established all over the country with a Lock ward attached to them, should you object to that? — I should have no objection to that ; I have no objection to the cure of disease, as disease. But I think any ordinary medical practitioner, if a woman came to him and said, " I am leading the life of a common prostitute, and I want you to examine me to see if I am tit to have connection with men," would scout such an idea as carrying out that examination on that ground. But if she came to him and said, " I am diseased, and want to be cured," I think he would consider it quite within his province to attempt to cure her. But what these Acts do is to do the first on Govern- ment .authority. 5061. I want to see how far you carry your objection to the assistance of the State in these cases. I will take the case of a State-suppcvrted hospital with a Lock ward ; supposing that a woman known to be a prostitute came to that Lock ward and said, '' 1 want to be examined at the jiublic expense, in order that I may carry ou the trade of prostitution after having been so examined ; I want to see whether I am diseased or not;" for supposing that her intention to continue the trade of prostitution under these circumstances was communicated to the doctor, and he knew it, not from herself but aliunde, should you not think that a system of that kind was obnoxious to the objections which you have raised to the system in force in the subjected districts? — If she introduced it as a part of the request on that ground, I imagine that there would be objec- tions : but I should think the surgeon would have no occasion to go behind the faci that she was a diseased woman, and if she was diseased it would be his duty to cure her. 5062. You admit that in such a case as this given, a professional jirostitute coming with disease to the hospital ward, and requesting to be cured, jnhnd facie for the purpose of enabling her to carry on the trade of prostitution, there ought to be no objection on the part of the surgeon, or on the part of the hospital, to give her relief. SELECT C03IMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 221 2 Mmj 1882.] Mr. Gillett. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, relief, though the surgeon knew to a certainty that the result of giving her relief would be that she would go back on the streets ? — I do not think he ought to refuse to cure disease simply because she was a woman of bad character. 5063. But supposing that he knew perfectly well, and that she, in fact said, that her object in coming to the hospital to get cured of venereal disease was, because that venereal disease inter- fered with her calling, would you not say that a system which required that woman to be cured with the result, that she carried on her vicious calling, was amenable to the objection which you have stated against the Acts ? — It would be very objectionable to have it stated in that kind of way ; but I imagine that it would hardly arise in ordinary practice. 5064. But I am putting a hypothetical case ; you would object to such a system upon the same grounds, as I understand, you object to the Acts, would you not? — No, not on the same grounds as I object to the Acts ; that is an entirely different thing. C065. But you would object to it, would you not, upon the ground that it was giving, indi- rectly, a sort of recognition to vice, or rather that it was indirectly enabling the woman to carry on a vicious trade ? — It is rather a parallel with the case of eating things sacrificed to idols referred to by the Apostle: if you know that it is sacrifice to idols, you should avoid it ; if you do not know it, you may partake. 5066. In the case of a woman coming openly to these proposed State-supported hospitals, and saying, " I am suffering from this disease, which I have contracted in a course of prostitution; this disease interferes with my carrying on my trade ; vvill you cure me ? " I suppose the surgeon would be bound to cure her under those circumstances ; should you not say that a system which required a surgeon to act in that way was amenable to some of the objections which you have stated? — I should think it would be better to give the surgeon a little discretion if the woman came over and over again from her life of prostitution. 5067. Does it not strike you that logically some of the objections which have been stated by former witnesses to the operation of the Acts would apply to such a system as that ? — I think not, because if I look at these tables of the police I see that 500,000 examinations have taken place, and that 450,000 of those examinations have been examination of healthy people ; I cannot under- stand what the object of the examination of healthy people is. The two things are entirely different. 5068. Your objection, if I have not veiy much mistaken your evidence, I take it, is to any system under which the State directly, or indirectly, assists women in carrying on a career of vice ; is that a fair statement of your evidence ? — It is an objection to the State entering into a compact with a woman to carry on the trade of prostitu- tion. 5069. Is It, or is it not, your opinion that the State has no right, directly or indirectly, to give anything in the shape of a helping hand to any woman so as to enable her to carry on the trade 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, of prostitution ? — Prima facie it has no right to do so. Of course in actual practice it is different. 5070. Putting the Acts out of sight for a moment, take the case of a State hospital sup- ported by the State, with a Lock ward (or, if you like, take the case of a Lock hospital, but I imderstand you to prefer to take the case of a general hospital, supported by State aid), a woman avowedly carrying on the trade of a prostitute comes to that hospital, and says to the surgeon, " I am suffering from a certain disease, and I wish to be cured." He knows that it in- terferes with her trade, and he knows as well as possible that the very moment she is cured she will go back upon the streets ? — How would he know that? 5071. Suppose she tells him, or suppose that he might assume it with absolute certainty, would you or would you not say that any system of State aid, which I will not say had that object, but which had the direct result that the woman cured with State money went back upon the streets, and carried on her trade of prostitution, which of course she could not have done if she had remained diseased, was a vicious system ? — It is objectionable ; but I imagine that it is done over and over again in the case of men in our present hospitals ; they get cured in the hospitals, and go back again to the streets just the same as women. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 5072. Do you object to a woman being com- pulsorily detained in hospital until she is well? — Yes. 5073. Then would you allow her to go free to propagate disease ? — Yes, and the men free to consort with her if they liked. 5074. In a diseased state ? — Yes, it is their own choice contracting disease ; I say that the State has no interest in whether the woman is free or not from venereal disease. Mr. Stansfeld. 5075 . You are aware, are you not, that under the poor law system existing in this country at this moment, a pauper prostitute has a right to the relief which her condition requires ? — Yes. 5076. You are probably aware that all the workhoiises have infirmaries attached to them, and that in the larger infirmaries 1here are wards which are set apart for contagious disorders ? — I suppose so. 5077. You Mill take that from me, I am sure. Those workhouse infirmaries are paid for out of the poor rates, are they not ? — Yes. 5078. I do not understand you as objecting to that ? — Not at all. 5079. Will you explain to the Committee why you do not object to that provision for the neces- sities of persons suffering from disease, although it includes persons suffering from diseases the consequence of sexual vice ? — I take it that it is to the interest of the State to lessen disease ns far as it can. But what I said just now might be mistaken in its meaning ; the State has no interest in inquiring whether a woman has, or has not, venereal disease. It is the interest of he State if a woman is diseased to cure her. E E 3 5080. And 222 MINUTKs OK l-.VIDENtE TAKKN BKKOKK Till. 2 May 1882. j Mr. GiLLKTT. [Lontijived. Mr. Stan.ifeld — coatinued. o()8{). Aud if there is nothing in the institu- tion of this arrangement for her cure which im- plies sanction ol prostitution, or whicli is likely to stimulate foriiification and prostitution, you have no objection to those conditions ? — 1 have no objection whatever to a hospital which will take a virtuous woman as well as a prostitute, and cure both alike ; but those hospitals that we have will not admit virtuous women that are in- fected by their husbands. 5081. They prefer the prostitutes? — They prefer the |)rostitutes for a special design. 5082. That shows their design, and tliat also, I undei-stand you to say, is conclusive evidence to you of what the moral effect upon the com- munity of the existence of such institutions is certain to be ? — It is part and parcel of the con- tinually lessening permission of marriage in the Army ; the two things are hand-and-glove to- gether. I believe that the percentage of mai-- riage permitted in the Army has lessened since these Acts have been introduced. Mr. Osfiorite Morgan. 5083. What is your reason for stating that the pcr-contai;e of married soldiers has decreased ; have you seen any statistics? — 1 cannot recall to mind where 1 have seen it stated, but 1 have understood that it is so. 5084. You could not state the fact of your own knowledge, I suj)pose ?— 1 could not. but I am speaking of the nuuiber i>ormitted to be married, not of tlie nundjer who are married. Mr. Stansfeld. 5085. With reference to the question of the marriages of soldiers, you are aware that our modern system is one of short service, ami that the soldiers enter the army younger and leave it younger ? — Ye». 5086. And I suppose that the fact would, in your mind, be another reason against ujaking special jirovisiou for the gratification of his sensual appetite?— Most decidedly. The Rev. W. Fleming Stevenson, d.d., called in; aud Examined. Mr. Stnnsfcld. 5087. You are a minister of Christ Church, in the neighbourhood of Dublin ? — Yes. 5088. Are you the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Presbvterian Church in Ireland for the year 1881-82 ?— I am. 5089. Are you member of the Senate of the Royal University of Ireland ? — I am. 5090. For how many years have you been in the ministry of your church ? — About 22 years. 5091. Have you read the evidence given against the Contagious Diseases Acts on moral and reli- gious grounds by the Keverend Mr. Gledstone ? — I have. 5092. Do you generally agree with that evi- dence ?— I do. 5093. Is there any, and if so what, addition that you would like to make on your own part? — I am not aware of any. 5094. Then may I pass at once to the action which your denomination has taken ? — I am quite jjrepared that jou should do so. 5095. The Presbyterian Church in Ireland represents what proportion of the Protestant population of that country ? — It represents nearly one-half of the Protestant population. 5096. What ai-e your numbers ? — Close on 500,000. 5097. How many congregations have you ? — Five hundred and sixty. 5098. And how many ministers ? — Six hun- dred and twenty-one. 5099. How many presbytei'ies ? — Thirty-six in Ireland, and one mission presbytery in India. 5100. You have a yearly general assembly, have you not? — It meets every year in June. 5101. Has that assembly petitioned for the repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — In various years, beginning with 1871 up to this last year, 1881. 5102. Has it always been unanimous upon the subject? — In 1871 there was an amendment Mr. Stavs/fhl — continued, moved, that it was inexpedient to petition. The amendment was supported by a very small number, and the petition was adopted by the assembly. 5103. On all other occasions you have been unanimous? — On all other occasions we have been unanimous. 5104. Will you give to the Committee, so far as you desire to do so, some quotations fi-om your expressions of opinion, to show us the ground which your body lias taken .'—In 1871 tlie ])eti- tion was adopted, on the ground " That the Acts are calculated to inflict much suffering upon a helpless class, outrage thsir feelings, deaden their sensibilities, and infringe upon their constitutional rights; also that the etficacy of the Acts is extremely doubtful ; and also that tlie attempt of the Acts to deal wth the evil stands in the way of other measures that might be tried." The petitioners also protested in that year in emphatic and solemn terms against a mode of dealing with the evil which ap]iears contrary to sound morality, and inconsistent with the law of God. In 1872 they petitioned, '• because the Acts are based upon the unrighteous principle that prostitution is a social necessity, a view adverse to sound morality, and wholly contrary to the word of God." They rejieated some of the ])reviou8 grounds, and they stated that an additional ground was that the Acts confer an arbitrary and most dangerous power upon certain officials : they having, in 1872, expressed their dread lest the sphere of the operation of the Acts should be enlarged, and thereby the evil become increased ; in 1873 they solemnly protested against the ex- istence of these Acts in the Statute Book, as opposed to religion, morality, and justice : and said, " They have reason to believe that the operation of the Acts has greatly lowered the tone of public morals within their sphere, aud that their general influence has been to deaden con- science, SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 223 2 May 1882.] Rev. W. F. Stevenson, d.d. \_Cuntiiiuea. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. science, and they view with the iireatest appre- hension efforts made to extend their area." They also expressed their deep regret in that year that a motion made during that Session was opposed by Her Majesty's Government. In 1874 there was no jDetition; Jn 1875 there was an unanimous petition ; in 1876 there was also an unanimous petition ; in 1877 there was no petition, nor in 1878; in 1879 there was an unanimous petition, the same as in 1875, with merely a very slight difference, that under Clause 3 the Acts are called " these most objectionable Acts ;" and it is added " That the petitioners are determined to resist to the utmost all such attempts at legislation." In 1880 the petition was unanimous; in 1881 it was unanimous also. I have here the petition adopted in 1879, 1880, and 1881. ( The same ivas handed in.) 5105. In addition to the action of the General Assembly, have the presbyteries taken action? — They have at different times, in different years; and, as an illustration, I may mention that in this year, 18 of the 36 presbyteries at home have taken action, and have ado[)ted petitions or reso- lutions for repeal, those 18 comprising 273 ministers. 5106. Is there anything else that you think it necessary to state ? — I do not know that there is anything else, except to state from my own know- ledge that the feeling against these Acts is in- creasing in intensity, and that with each year the determination to have them repealed is assuming a more decided form, and increasing also in the numbers that support it. 5107. You are speaking now of the north of Ireland? — I am speaking of the Presbyterian Church, which reaches from the north to the extreme south. Dr. Farquharson. 5108. Do you concur, in the statement which you read just now, that the Acts inflict much suffering upon a helpless class ? — I believe that they inflict moral suftering upon a helpless class. 5109. Not physical suffering? — Not physical suffering. 5110. What do you mean exactly by their being helpless ; do not they voluntarily take up prostitution as a profession ? — They are helpless in the sense, first of all, that they are women who, as a rule, may be called helpless as compared with men. They are helpless, also, inasmuch as the law takes very little cognisance of their protec- tion. 5111. But they are not examined unless they voluntarily consent to be examined? — I under- stand, by the Acts, that if they do not voluntarily consent they are compelled to be examined. 5112. If they ai-e diseased? — It is not if they are diseased, but if any one whose connection with the Acts affirms that they are diseased. 5-13. If they are professional prostitutes? — Or if they are assumed to be professional prosti- tutes. 5114. Having voluntarily gone into the profes- sion they can voluntarily leave it when they please, can they not? — One of the objections that 0.75. Dr. Farquharson— -contmne^. I have to the Acts is, that they throw every diffi- culty in the way of then- voluntarily leaving. 5115. Would you not admit that the Acts diminish a good deal of suffering by facilitating the treatment of disease ? — I have no doubt that they diminish suffering and increase sin. 5116. I do not ask about sin, but only about suffering ; do they not diminish a good deal of suffering by affording facilities for the treatment of disease ? — I .should suppose that they diminish suftering. 5117. Even granting, according to your as- sumption, that they inflict suffering upon those people, they also diminish suffering, do they not? — The one suftering is physical and the other suffer- ing is moral, and I hold that there is no analogy between them. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 5118. You told the Committee that you had read Mr. Gledstone's evidence ; have you read all the evidence that has been given by clergy- men who were favourable to the Acts ? — Neither favourable nor unfavourable evidence have I read fully ; I have glanced here and there at the evidence. 5119. You have not read the -^^hole of the evidence ? — No, not at all ; I do not profess to have read the whole of the evidence on either side. 5120. Then you have not read the evidence which has been given to the effect that great moral advantages have been derived by the pros- titute class in subjected districts ? — It strikes me as so extremely unlikely that such moral advan- tage would xake place that I should read that evidence with great interest. 5121. You have not read it? — I have not read it. 5122. Do you not think that it would have been better to have read that evidence ? — I come before the Committee to give evidence as to the action of my Church. 5123. Without having studied the question thoroughly ?. — I have studied it as thoroughly as I can with such busy occupations as I have. 5124- Were you in the room when I read to Dr. Osborn a letter of the officer commanding the 80th regiment in Dublin ? — I heard the letter read. 5125. Had you heard of it before? — I heard of it yesterday. 5126. Do you notthinkthat sucha state of things as that calls for some special remedy ? — I thought it did call for the special remedy of increasing the number of maiTiages in the Army. I under- stood from that letter that the celibacy of soldiers was one of the causes of the disease. 5127. Do you think it possible, from your general knowledge of the world, that such a thing would be possible as to have a regiment entirely composed of married soldiers ? — The question is one which I am not at ail competent to decide ; but I have not the slightest hesita- tion in saying that I believe the number of mar- riages could be increased mostly beyond what it is, and that I believe the increase of marriages is the only right remedy for the present state of disease. E E 4 5128. What 224 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 2 May 18S2.] Kev. W. F. Stevenson, d.d. \_Co)itinued. Sir. Caroidisli Bentivch — continued. 5128. "What srounds have you fi -Ma arnvuig c is the generally at that conclusion ?- law of God, I believe. 5129. But I mean as regards the i)0ssibility of having married soldiers? — I believe tliut soldiers are not exempt from the law of God any more than civilians. 5130. Tiiere are difficrdties in the way of sol- diers marrying. First of all, you would not com- pel a soldier to many, would you ? — I would allow him to marry. 5131. Would you compel him to marry ? — I would not comjiel him to marry, but I would allow him to have facilities; at present I understand that the facilities are so much abridged as to make the number of married soldiers comparatively small. 5132. You wnuld think it iiossible to increase, very largely, the number of married soldiers ? — I have no doubt that it would be possible. 5133. Have you any reason for arriving at that conclusion, excejit your own opinion? — Kone. 5134. Did I correctly understand you to say, in answer to the honourable Member, that you were in favour of allowing diseased women to voluntarily leave the hospitals ? — The institution of a hospital under the Act is one that I object to altogether, as I object to everything con- nected with the Act. 5135. You object to compulsory detention until they are cured ? — I do. 5136. Therefore, you would allow them to go I'ree and propagate disease ? — I would allow them to go free at whatever risk ; there is always a risk in sin. 5137. Then even when a woman was in the last stage of disease you would allow her to go forth ? — It is a question for private benevolence, not for the State. 5138. In whatever state of health she was you would allow her to go forth ? — I have not as- sumed that it is right for her to be in ; and I cannot allow her to go forth. The Act to my mind is objectionable from its inception. 5139. Assuming a woman to be in hospital for venereal disease, no matter whether she was in a Government hospital or a voluntary hospital, would you allow her to go forth in whatever state of disease she was ? — The question, I think, is beset with this difficulty, that allowance implies on the other hand compulsion, that there must be some compulsion exercised which implies legislation on the question. I can understand the answer to be given in case it was a free hos- pital, which she entered of her own accord ; it is a matter then for the hospital authorities to determine. I can conceive, also, that at any pri- vate benevolent institution it would be a question for those in charge whether to let her free or not ; but in the case of a hospital under the State, she is there by compulsion and State legislation, to which I object in tofo. 5140. My question apphes to all hospitals. "What I want to know is this, whether, in the case of a patient in a hospital for venereal disease, would you compulsorily detain her until she was well ; or whether, if she chose to go forth, in however bad a state of disease, she might be Mr. Cavi'iidisli Bent inch — continued, at liberty to do so? — That is not a question that I can answer directly ; it is a matter that I have never thought of in that particular aspect ; but I siiould say that it was a question for physicians to deal with. 5141. Then you think there might be cases in which Lock Hospital, or voluntary hospital, authorities might be justified in detaining her until she was well ? — I understand that the Lock Hospital is a Government institution. It completely alters the view which I take of the question, whether the compulsion may be a Government matter, or whether it is a mattei- entirely in the constitution of the hospital. 5142. In the case of a voluntary patient, do you think that the authorities of the hospital have a right to detain her till she might be well ? — As I have already stated, 1 think that would be a question for the physicians to determine. 5143. You think tliere might be a case iu which the physicians might detain her ? — I think there might be such a case. 5144. Compulsorily ?— I do not admit that it is compulsory on the part of any authority but the physician, whose compulsion is medical com- pulsion. 5145. I understand you to say that there might be cases in which the physicians or surgeons of the Lock Hospital would be justified in detain- ing a woman until she was well ? — That is not what I stated. I stated that I drew a distinction between voluntary or free hospitals and Govern- ment hospitals. In a free hospital the physician has no legal authority to detain any patient against her will. The physician may exercise his judgment and say : " It is not riglit that that person should leave the hospital," and tlie autho- rities of that hospital may do what they can to prevent it ; but there is no legal power to keep that man or woman in the hospital longer than the person is willing to remain. 5146. Then you think that in a voluntary Lock Hospital a woman might be allowed to go forth at any time she jileases, in whatever state of disease she may be ? — I say that is entirely a matter for the physicians of the hospital. IMr. Osborne Morgan. 5147. I think you said that your church was in Dublin ? — In ear Dublin. 5148. Do you know the subjected districts in Ireland? — The Curragh is a subjected district, I believe, and Cork and Queenstown. 5149. Are you acquainted with those districts ? — I am not directly acquainted with them. 5150. Have you ever been there? — I have been in the Curragh once, and I have been in Cork several times, but only for a day or so at a time. 5151. You have never investigated the opera- tion of the Acts in those places ? — I have never investigated the operation of the Acts in those places, but I have indirect testimony. I cannot speak to the operation of the Acts from my per- sonal knowledge. 5152. I think in Cork and in the south of Ireland, probably, the religious body to which you belong is much less numerous than in the north of Ireland ? — Much less numerous: but in Cork it SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 225 2 May 1882.] Eev. W. F. Stevenson, d.d. [^Continued. Atr. Osborne Morgan — continued, it happens that •we have strong congregations, and the ministers there take a very decided view against the supposed beneficial tendencies of the Act. 5153. How many ministers have you in Cork? — We have two placed ministers, and one other. 5154. Have you any in the Curragh ? — There is a chaplain in the Curragh, and we have con- gregations round the Curragh which are quite within the range and influences of the Curragh. 5155. Is the chaplain of whom you speak one of your mirusters who had taken any part in the agitation, if we may so call it, against the Acts ? — I cannot say of my own knowledge. 515fi. And you have not communicated with him as to the operation of the Acts ? — I have not. Mr. Hopwood. 5157. I suppose he would have the same right as other ministers to appear, or to be present, at your annual assembly ? — He is a member of the general assembly, and as such consenting to all its action. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5158. Was he present, to your knowledge, at any of those meetings ? — I must assume that he was, because I had seen him a very short time before on two occasions. Mr. Hopioood. 5159. You have no reason to suppose that he takes a different view from that which you re- present here to-day ? — No. 5160. And if he did take a different view, he Mr. Hopwood — continued, has had many an opportunity of expressing it, and has not done so ? — He has not done so. 5161. As I understand you, taking the case of a free hospital where a woman came of her own free will, you would think that the authorities should use some sort of constraint to keep her there until she was cured, whether you call it compulsion, or whether you call it inducement ? — I think it is a matter for them to decide. 5162. But in that case there would be this difference, would there not, that the woman who comes to a general hospital comes knowing and agreeing to the terms and conditions under which she is to be received ? — Precisely. 5163. You will excuse my asking you such a question, because I understand you not to have discussed this question of hospitals with a view to setting them up or j)utting them down, but if it were found that the effect of keeping women against their will was to prevent their coming to ask for the medical aid that they ought to have, that might be a strong reason, might it not, why the authorities should cease to compel them to stay ? — It might be. 5164. Therefore, when I understand you to say that you have not searched round the whole of this matter, that might be one of the consi- derations which might modify your judgment in regard to compelling them to remain? — Cer- tainly it might. 5165. The matter is suiTounded with various difficulties, which you are not prepared at this moment to encounter with a complete scheme? — I have not come prepared with a solution of a very grave problem. The Eev. Fkedeeick Teestkail, d.d., called in ; and Examined. Mr. Stansfeld. 5166. You have been for many years in the Baptist ministry, have you not? — For a great many years. 5167. You were, I think, president of the Baptist Union in 1880?— I was. 5168. You have now retired from the ministry, have you not ? — I have just retired from the pulpit ministry. 5169. When did you enter the Baptist College in Bristol ?— In 1828. 5170. Was that your first connection as a young man with the Baptist denomination ? — I was a member of a Baptist church years before that. 5171. Then you settled at Clipstone as a minister in 1832, and you removed to Newport in the Isle of Wight in 1835, and then did you go to the city of Cork in 1839 ? — I did. 5172. How long were you at Cork ? — Three years and a half. 5173. Were you appointed Secretary of the Irish Mission in 1842 ? — I was. 5174. And were you appointed Secretary to the Baptist Foreign Mission in 1848 ? — Yes. 5175. You retired in 1870 from the Foreign Mission, did you not ? — Yes, on account of broken health. 5176. And you settled In Newport a second time in 1871?— Yes. 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 5177. Then you were elected President of the Baptist Union in the year 1880?— Yes. 5178. Have you read the Rev. Mr. Gled- stone's evidence, given before this Committee at its last sitting ? — Yes. 5179. Do you agree with the views which he then stated ? — I think I may say, thoroughly. 5180. Is there any expression of opinion upon the morality of the Acts in Mr. Gledstone's evi- dence about which you would desire to express any modified view ? — No, certainly not. 51S1. Is there anything that you would like to add to his evidence in that respect ? — I do not know that I need trouble the Committee with any opinions about the Acts, except that I think they are wrong altogether in principle ; that they begin with the wrong persons ; that they should leave the poor women alone and begin with the men, for they are by far the bigger sinners and by far the larger number, and the most active propagators of the disease. 5182. Would you inform the Committee, first of all, whether the Baptist Union shares the views to which Mr. Grledstone gave exjiresslon, and In which you have expressed your concur- rence ? — As far as their public acts are concerned certainly. 5183. And do their public acts represent the F F opinions 226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE Tlir. 2 Alai/ 1882.] Rev. F. Trestrail, d.d. [Continued. Mr. Stamfeld — continued, opinions of tlie great majority of tlic denomina- tion ? — Yes, certainly, among the most thought- ful and devote. 5184. What public action has the denomina- tion taken with reference to this legislation? — The following resolution was jiasscd at North- amjiton in December 1871 : '' That this Session of the Bajitist Union is of opinion that the Con- tagious Diseases Acts relating to women are in pnncipal unjust and criminal, an oft'ence to the religious sentiment of the country, iuefi'ectual to the arrest of the evil to which they are profes- sedly opposed, and j)resent a direct infraction of ttie first j)riuci))les of British law. This Union, on these and other grounds, feels bound to call upon Her Majesty's Government to initiate and carry forward at the earliest possible period a »neasure for total re])eal of the Contagious Diseases Acts ; and earnestly recommends that the Churches of Clirist throughout the country will send petitions to Parliament for this object at the commencement of the Session." At Lon- don, in October 1875, it was resolved, on the motion of my late friend the Rev. C. M. Birrell, soconded by myself, " that a petition, signed by the President on behalf of the Assembly, be pre- sented to Parliament, praying for the repeal of these Acts, as compromising the dignity of the State, degrading the persons subjected to their provisions, violating the spirit of English law, and tending to encourage immoral practices among the people." At Birmingham, in October 1876, I moved the following resolution, which was seconded by Rev. J. Lewitt, of Worcester, and carried : " That in the judgment of this Assembly the Contagious Diseases Acts are highly immoral, unconstitutional, and unjust, and ought to be repealed. And therefore this As- sembly is of opinion that it behoves pastors, deacons, and members of churches hearti^ to co-operate in every constitutional effort to remove these laws from the Statute Book of the realm." I may say that these resolutions have been copied from the minutes of proceedings of the body, and signed by the present secretary. 5185. And these are meetings, as I under- stand, of the Union, which represents the whole denomination? — Just so, they assemble in large numbers, from 600 to 1,000. I may say that there was another resolution passed in London in May 1879 : " Moved by Rev. J. Lewitt, seconded by myself, and resolved. That this assembly has heard with satisfaction of the promise of Her Majesty's Government to appoint a Committee of inquiiy into the operations of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and trusts, in the interests of national morality, that the investigation will be impartial, searching', and complete." I hope I shall not be intruding upon your time if I offer an explanation, which is necessary, with regard to this resolution. It was put on the agenda on the motion of Mr. Lewitt, in the ordinary course of business. Tiie hour for adjournment amved, and I jiressed the chairman at once to put it ; but he said, " W^e will take it at dinner," and upon that understanding we left. We went to the Metropolitan Tabernacle to dine, but the chairman of that meeting was not the chairman of the Union, but the chairmain of the London Mr. Slansfeld — continued. Baptist Association. The resolution was brought forward and triumphantly carried. At the next meeting of the committee of the Baptist Union, the ubjectiiin was taken, on purely technical grounds, that when the president had )ironounced the benediction, the session was at an end ; and therefore they thought proper to expunge that resolution h'om the minute. I atteniled the fol- lowing committee, and called upon the chairman to exjjiain to the committee that the whole error lay with him, and not either with myself or my friend, Mr. Lewitt. 5186. That expunging implied, I take it, simply a technical act, and did not im])ly the slightest modification in the opinions of your body ? — Certainly not. Dr. Fdrrpthurson. 5187. Do you share the oi)inion of the last witness about the desirability uf increasing the amount of marriages amongst soldiers ? — Cer- tainly. 5188. But you admit; that there are great difficulties with regard to that? — Of course I do; but, if you will allow me to give you my opinion about the matter, it is shortly this : I would make marriage in the Army dependent upon the good conduct of the men ; and I do not see any reason why married men should not live out of barracks, so as to avoid the question of exjiense. Anotiier reason that I have for holding that opinion is this : I saw some information that came from India, which stated positively that the difference of efficiency between married men and men who were not married, and who indulged in vicious habits, was most extra- ordinary, so that I think even the question of expense is of vcvy little moment indeeii. 5189. Do you think that the greatly increased expense resulting from their marriage, and the increased pay which you would have to give them, would be met by their increased efficiency ? — I think so, to a great extent. 5190. Do you think that marriage would necessarily prevent evil practices among sol- diers ? — 1 do not see why it should not, as well as amongst other classes. 5191. Does it have that effect amongst other classes? — If I am to enter into that question, remembering how far in point of numbers licentious men exceed licentious women, I should feel some difficulty in answering your question. 5192. Do you think that, if matrimony Avere universal, jirostltution would cease? — I think so. 5193. Soldiers not uncommonly marry pros- titutes, who afterwards continue the practice of their profession ; do you think that those soldiers would be very likely themselves to continue in the paths of virtue? — ! have heard that that is so sometimes ; but, on the other hand, I have heard from many quarters that even soldiers who were formerly profligate have turned out very moral and well-conducted men after mar- riage. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 5194. I understood you to say that, in passing any Acts similar to these Contagious Diseases Acts, SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 227 2 May 1882.] Rev. F. Tresteail, d.d. [Continued. Mr. 'Cavendish Beutinck — continued. Acts, you thought they ought to begin with men ? — So I do. 5195. What do you think ought to be done to the men? — I do not think you ought to ask me to go into details as to how the Acts should be framed and managed ; but I do not see why, if you deal with women and enlarge the agency, you could not deal with men too, not that I should approve of that. 5196. Therefore, acting upon your own re- sponsibility only, you would not attempt to punish even a man for communicating disease? — I would put the women and the men upon the same footing, as my friend Dr. Osborn said over and over again in his evidence. If prostitution is legally to be defined to be a crime, and there is a penalty attached to it, deal with it accord- ingly ; but I have not yet met with any definition of prostitution. 5197. But you cannot oflfer any suggestion as to how that is to be done ? — I have not come pre- pared with anything of that kind, because I did not anticipate that the question would be put. I have great reliance upon moral means and raising ]jublic opinion, and, above all, raising public ojjinion to this pitch : that it is as bad and as immoral for a man to commit fornication as it is for a woman ; and until we get to that point I think we shall have great difficulties still. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5198. You have spoken of the effect of mar- riage upon soldiers ; may I ask you whether you are well acquainted with any garrison town? — Newport is a garrison town. 5199. Are you resident at Newport? — Yes, I Mr. Oslorne Morgan — continued, am up to the present time, and I have been there for 11 years. 5200. Is Newport a subjected district ? — No. 5201. Have you any acquaintance with sub- jected districts ; do you know Southampton, for instance ? — I do not', except by report. 5202. Then may I take it that you do not know the subjected districts personally ? — I do not. 5203. Therefore, when you speak of the in- effective operation of the Acts, I take it that you go by hearsay ? — I go by what I should call authentic reports in different publications. •5204. You do not judge from your own per- sonal observation ? — I do not. My first impres- 'sion with regard to the Acts, and their nature and tendency, arose from a very careful perusal of the Report of the Royal Commission, which I read through from beginning to end. Mr. Stansfeld. 5205. Is there any other point which you desu-e to bring before the Committee? — I should be sori-y if I said anything that conveyed the idea that our body were perfectly unanimous throughout upon this question. There is some difference of opinion upon it unquestionably, but not to any great extent. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 5206. Is not Mr. Bompas, the Queen's Counsel, a member of your religious body ? — He is. 5207. He made a speech, I think, the other day at a May meeting in favour of the Acts, did he not? — Yes, much to the discomfort of his father-in-law . The Rev, Richard Chew, called' in ; and Examined. Mr. Stansfeld. 5208. Are you the President of the United Methodist Free Church Conference ? — I am. 5209. You have charge, I think, of Silver- street Chapel, in the city of Lincoln ? — I have. 5210. How long have you been in the minis- try? — Nearly 35 years; since 1847. 5211. I will put the same question to you as I have put to other witnesses : have you read the evidence of the Rev. Mr. Gledstone before this Committee ? — I have. 5212. Do you agree with that evidence ? — In general I do. 5213. Would you wish to make any reserva- tion or any specific addition of your own ? — No, I have simply to say that I come to object to the Contagious Diseases Acts on moral and religious grounds, and in doing so to represent what I believe to be the prevailing opinion of the churches with which I am connected. 5214. The objections expressed by Mr. Gled- stone, in which you concur, are the opinions also of the churches in your connection? — They are the opinions of the churches in our connection as far as I have had an opportunity of ascertaining those ojHnions ; and we have from time to time taken action in our general assembly in relation 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, to this matter, beginning in the year 1871, and going down to the year 1879; but not every year. 5215. Had you not a petition in 1870? — We presented a petition in 1870 against the Con- tagious Diseases Acts, signed by the president and secretary of the annual assembly on behalf of the assembly. 5216. Have you ever had a deputation to any Member of the Government? — Yes, we sent a deputation to the Home Secretary. 5217. That would be, I suppose, in the time of Mr. Bruce, now Lord Aberdare ? — It was between the annual assemblies of 1873 and 1874. 5218. And you have petitioned every year for the repeal of these Acts? — Not every year, but we have occasionally. 5219. Did you petition in the years 1871 and 1879? — We passed resolutions in the years 1871 and 1879. 5220. Have you those resolutions in your hand? — I have. 5221. Would you read them? — The resolu- tion in 1871 was this : — "Resolved, That in the judgment of this Assembly the Contagious Diseases Acts are immoral in their tendency, contrary to the law of God, dangerous to the F F 2 liberties 228 MINfTES OP EVIDRNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 2 May 1882.] Rev. R. Chew. [ Continued, Mr. Stansfeld — continued. liberties of the subject, and do not secure the sanitary and restraining efl'ect for which they ■were ])rofessedly enacted, and therefore recom- mends all our ministers and members to seek their repeal by every jjroper and Christian method." That was the resolution ])assed unani- mously in our annual assembly in that year. ;)222. Have you the resolution passed in 1879? • — In 1879, at tlie annual assembly at Sunderland, the following resolution was passed : " Resolved, That ibrmer annual assemblies having recorded their condemnation of these immoral and in- famous Acts, this assembly desires to express its deep and deepeniug conviction, that these Acts are opposed to tiie ])rinciples of religion, constitutional liberty, and justice, and urges all the oiBcials and ]>rivate members of our churches to use all constitutional means to obtain their early repeal." 5223. You have considered these Acts in more than those tiiree years, have you not? — AVe have passed resolutions in other years, which, if necessary, I could give. 5224. Have your resolutions been unanimous? — They have been unanimous on each occasion. 5225. And you have no hesitation, I suppose, in telling the Committee that you represent here the opinion of the largely preponderant propor- tion of your body ? — 1 represent here the largely preponderant opinion of our body. 5226. Is there any other statement that you Mr. Stansfeld — continued, would like to make ? — I do not know that I have anything further to say iu relation to it. Mr. Oshurne Morgan. 5221 . Do you know personally any of these subjected districts? — I have no personal acquaint- ance with them. 5228. Have you ever been in any of them? — I have not. Dr. Farquliarson. 5229. Do you concur in this answer given by the Rev. J. P. Gledstone to Question 4G64 : " I know that the number of doctors who are opposed to these laws is very much greater than it was, and that many leading doctors are opjiosed to these laws"? — I concur generally in relation to the moral aspects of the question. 5230. But you are not prepared to give any opinion upon this poiut? — Not upon the medical question. 5231. This is an answer given during Mr. Glodstone's examination on the moral and reli- gious aspects of the case ; you have no evidence or knowledge of your own in any way to support or contradict that ? — Not to support or contradict that as a medical question. Mr. Cavendish Bent inch. 5232. Have you read the evidence given by clergymen of various denomiuations in support of the Acts ? — I have not. The Rev. William Blake Lark, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Stansfeld. 5233. You, I think, are the Chairman of the Portsmouth District, and Secretary of the Bible Christian Conference ? — Yes. 5234. How long have you been resident in Portsmouth ? — Only a few months. 5235. Therefore you would probably prefer that I should not put to you any questions founded upon your knowledge of Portsmouth ? — I am not very intimately acquainted with Ports- mouth, not having been there very long. 5236. How long hare you been in the ministry of the Bible Christian body ? — Twenty - three years. 5237. Have you read the evidence of the Rev. Mr. Gledstone upon the moral aspect of this legislation ? — Yes. 5338. Do you agree with his evidence? — I do. 5239. Witiiout reserve? — I have no reserve to make that I know of. 5240. Is there any addition that you would like to make ? — I do not think it is necessary ; I have nothing to add. 5241. Are the views in which you have ex- Mr. Stansfeld — continued. pressed concurrence, also the views of the body with which you are connected? — I have been sent by the connexional committee to represent them and their views. 5242. Can you tell the Committee what action has been taken by that body with regard to the existence of these Acts? — In 1878 the Conference was held at Portsmouth, when it passed this reso- lution unanunously : " This Conference considers that the Contagious Diseases Acts tend to per- petuate immorality, and arc repugnant to the best feelings of every good citizen, and we heartily approve of the use of all legitimate means for the abolition of the said Acts." 5243. That is not the only occasion probably upon which your body has come to a conclusion upon this subject ? — That is the only resolution that has been passed formally by the Conference. That was in 1878. 5244. The opinion there expressed remains the opinion of your body ? — So far as I know it does. 5245. In fact you are sent here to express that opinion ? — I am. The Rev. Robinson Cheeseman, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Stansfeld. 5246. You are, I think, Secretary of the Primitive Methodist Connection? — Yes. 5247. Have you been so long? — Yes, for three years. Mr. Stansfeld— coniixmcA. 5248. You have read the evidence of the Rev. Mr. Gledstone? — I have. 5249. Do you agree with that evidence? — Yes, quite so. 5250. Without SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 229 2 May 1882.] Rev. R. Cheeseman. [ Continued. Mr. StayisfeLd — continued. 5250. Without reserve ? — Yes. 5251. Is there anj' addition that you desire to make to his evidence ? — I do not desire to make any addition. 5252. Your body, I take it, shares the opinion in which you have expressed concurrence? — They do. 5253. Will you give to the Committee a state- ment of the action which they have taken with regard to this legislation ? — On several occasions our Conference has passed resolutions condemna- tory of these Acts, and we have petitioned Par- liament also on many occasions for their repeal. In 1875 we sent 635 petitions, containing 24,801 signatures. In 1876 we sent 493 petitions, with 18,691 signatures. Also in 1878 we sent 197 petitions, with 3,489 signatures. The last Con- ference re-affirmed the previous resolutions that had been passed. The following is the resolu- tion passed last year : " That this Conference records once more, and in the most emphatic mauner, its condemnation of the Contagious Diseases Acts as a violation of moral priuciple, as an encouragement to vice, as an injustice to women, as a danger to constitutional liberty, and as a useless sanitary measure, and hopes that a Bill for their repeal may soon be passed by the House of Commons, and the country freed. from the guilt it has incurred." 5254. Your petitions appear to have been prac- tically suspended since 1878, I take it, in conse- quence of the appointment of this Committee ? — Yes, quite so. 5255. And your body await anxiously the re- sult of this inquiry ? — Yes. 5256. Is there any other statement that you would wish to make ? — I do not know that there is. Dr. Fai-quharson. 5257. Are there any signatures of the medical profession in your district attached to your peti- tions? — I daresay there would be. We have several medical gentlemen belonging to our church, and I have no doubt they would sign Dr. Farquharson — continued. some of them, but I do not know for a fact th at they did. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5258. Do you know any of the subjected dis- tricts yourself? — No, not personally ; I have never visited them. 5259. Could you tell me what proportion of the gentlemen who have signed these petitions are acquainted with these subjected districts ? — We had jDctitions from those districts ; from Portsmouth, for example, there was one. 5260. You could not, I suppose, give me the number of signatures to that petition? — I might liave done so had I known that such questions would have been asked ; but I am not prepared to do so now. 5261. Then I gather from you that the view which you take against the Acts is derived from what you have read, and not from what you have seen ; would that be so ? — Quite so ; I come merely to express the views of our denomination. 5262. But you yourself have no pei'sonal ex- perience of the working of the Acts? — I have no personal experience. Mr. Hopwood. 5263. In that respect you would be on a level with most of the members of this Committee, and with most of your fellow subjects, I presume? — Quite so. 5264. We do not live in the subjected districts, and yet we are assembled here to judge of these Acts? — Quite so. 5265. Have you congregations of your reli- gious body (or whatever may be the proper term to use) in all the subjected districts? — I believe we have. 5266. I suppose you are represented in all of them? — I think so. 5267. Have you any reason to think that the members of your body who do reside in those dis- tricts differ from the bulk of the churches in their opinion upon this matter ? — I believe they do not differ in the least. 0.75. F r 3 230 MIXUTKS OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TUE Friday, 5th May 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT ; Mr. Cavendish Beiitinck. Mr. Burt. Coldiicl Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Ilopwood. Mr. Osborue Morgan. Mr. Ernest Noel. Mr. O'Shauffhnessv. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mrs. Josephine Butler, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Hopwood. 5268. You are the ivife of the Eev. George Butler, M.A., Principal of the Liverpool College? — Yes. 5269. I believe that for many years past yon have been mnch occupied in endeavouring to re- claim the unfortunate women who have fallen, either from viciousness or from necessity, into that state of life? — I have, more or less, since 1851. 5270. From within a few yeai'S after your marriage, I believe?- — Yes. 5271. And have those efforts been made, not only in Liverpool, where I believe you have re- sided for 16 years past, but also in Oxford, for five years, and in Cheltenham, for nine years ? — Yes ; and I may add also on the Continent of Europe. 5272. You remember the fact of the passing of these Acts being made public after they had passed ? — I do. 5273. When was your attention first called to them ? — In 1865. I read all that was suggested then. 5274. Did you take any steps on the passing of the Acts to niake known their purpose, and to secure the assistance of others to protest against their extension, or even their existence ? — I first heard of the passing of the Act of 1869, in September, on returning from the Continent. In November of that year we formed what is called the Ladies' National Association, to work for its repeal. 5275. "WTiat was the motive of your action against these Acts; what was it that impelled you in the first instance to take up a subject, ap- parently so painful to a lady to take up ? — Having some experience of the Continent, I had seen the disastrous effects on morality in general of such a system, and I saw at once that this system was identical. The motives which in- duced us women to oppose these Acts it would perhaps take me too long to describe; I will only say that they are very sacred motives, and that our convictions are very deep. 5276. Are your motives founded upon moral and religious considerations ? — Upon moral and religious considerations, and also very Ftrongly upon constitutional and legal con.siderations. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 5277. What is your feeling as to these laws being, or not being, an outrage upon womanhood? — If I am permitted to speak upon that subject, I will say briefly what the women of England, of the world, I may say, feel on the subject. 5278. Let me lake you through the formation of the first woman's association. You were about to tell us what people whom you know and whom you have met think about it ; who were amongst those who first formed part of this association? — We had in the winter of that year which I have mentioned, 1869, Mrs. Harriet Martineau, Miss Florence Nightingale, Miss Mary Carpenter, and a number of ladies known in the literary world ; all the ladies, I may say, of any note in the Society of Friends ; and we collected very soon about 2,000 adherents of our association. 5279. Besides those who gave you their names and who overcame their dislike to public action in such matters, did you meet with many others who sympathised with you, but who were not capable of the same public action ? — In every city and town in the United Kingdom that we visited (and they were many at that time) we met with universal sympathy from women. 5280. I will now pass on, if you jilease, to your action in this association. Did the asso- ciation form a large number of local societies ? — We have now 92 local committees and secre- taries. These were gradually formed through the United Kingdom. 5281. I believe that you gave evidence upon this subject before the Royal Commission ? — I did. 5282. I need hardly ask you whether it must not have cost you some effort to make a public demonstration ujion this matter? — In the country do you mean ? 5283. Yes, in the country generally, and before the Royal Commission ? — The pain and the effort were such as can never be known except to God. 5284. Then the matter passed on in its history from the Roval Commission to the bringing in of Mr. Bruce's Bill, and, in 1873, I think Mr. Fowler's Repeal Bill. During all that time did you SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 231 5 iMay 1882.] Mrs. BUTLEK. [ Continued, Mr. Hoj)wood — continued, you find the opposition in the country to these Acts increase or decrease ? — It gradually in- creased ; but during the 13 years that I have been connected -ivitli it there have been fluctua- tions in the outward manifestations, for this reason, that when the Government takes up the queslion, as by a Royal Commission, and when a Bill such as that of iMr. Bruce's is proposed, the feeling in the country is one of some degree of trust in the Government, and the agitation, therefore, is not carried on with the same vigour. But the moment that that trust in the Government is felt to have been de- ceived, the agitation is increased ; so that through the whole of tliose 13 years the agita- tion has increased in tiie sense that the flow of tlie tide increases, with the ebb and flow of the waves. 5285. Is there at this moment such an attitude of exjDectation, or suspension, waiting for the result of this Committee ? — I understand that in London the fact of the sitting of this Committee has necessarily diverted the energies of the workers. In the country it lias had less effect than any other thing of the kind before, because we have learned not to trust to the verdict of such Committees ; we tlierefore continue our agitation with the same patience and zeal throughout. 5286. You alluded to your knowledge of foreign maxters ; have you in connection with this society, or rather working with it, formed repeal societies, or a confederation in regard to foreign countries ?^We have a very large and world-wide Federation, an abolitionist society we call ourselves, for the abolition of this modern form of slavery. 5287. And are you working the two to- gether, and do you receive a very large amount of support, both at home and abroad? — We work the two closely together ; and the in- fluence of what is now constantly occurring on the Continent is felt very strongly in support of our agitation at home. 528S. Perhaps, in the history of this matter, I may refer to the year 1874, when there was some suggestion made by the Secretary of the Marine Department of the Board of Trade, to extend this system to the ordinary sailors ? — I should like to be permitted to mention that, in 1873, a great International Medical Congress was held at Vienna, and a strong resolution was passed at that congress callinu' upon all the nations of the earth to enter into consular con- ventions and international agreements to impose this system upon women in all the great seaports and cities of the world. A knowledge of the report of tliis congress came to us in 1874. At the same time we got the impression that the resolution of the congress of Vienna was be- coming fruitful in the minds of some persons con- nected with our Government at home, by the fact that a delegate of the Government came to Liverpool and spoke in exactly the teruis used in the resolution of the congress of Vienna of the necessity of entering into consular conven- tions to imjjose the Contagious Diseases Acts upon all jjarts of the world. We were further confii'med in this by other things, which I will not allude to, unless I am asked to do so. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5289. Could you give us the date of this resolu- tion ? — It was passed at the International Medical Congress of Vienna, in 1873. Mr. H'iptoood. 5290. What was the resolution that you re- ferred to ? — " Toute.s les nations reunies doivent ■prendre des mesures generales et uniformes pour agir d'un comman accord. Si Von veut obtenir tin re.sultat satisfaisant, il fuut promulguer una loi internationale sur le regie ineTitation de la prostitu- tion.^' 5291. I see that that refers to prostitution; but was the reasoning of the conference in the direction of rules and regulations with a view to the suppression of disease ? — Entirely with a view to the suppression of disease ; I should say for nothing else. It was a medical congress. 5292. Then I think you said that in Seji- tember 1874 the efi'ect of that you conceive was shown by a delegate of the Government coming down and proposing to the shipowners and mer- chants of Liverpool the extension of the system to the seaports and to the seamen ? — The Secre- tary to the Marine Department of the Board of Trade came to Liverpool in September 1874, and addressed a very large meeting of shipowners there. He there proposed what I have stated ; I have the exact words here, if they should be required, in the " Liverpool Daily Post," of 7th of September 1874, which reported it. 5293. This is his speech, I suppose ? — Yes ; the proposal that the Contagious Diseases Acts should be applied to Liverpool and to the other ports, was rejected by the meeting of shipowners. One or two of the most prominent shipowners of Liverpool protested in the meeting with a loud voice, interrupting Mr. Gray in his discourse. 5294. Were similar meetings held at Glasgow and at Bristol, about, or shortly after, the same time ? — Yes, on hearing of the speech of the Secretary to the Marine Department to the Board of Trade, a large meeting was called in Glasgow, and another in Bristol. At the Glasgow meeting in the City Hall, ivhich was very crowded, Mr. Allan, perhaps the most influential shipowner in Glasgow, spoke in very strong terms indeed against the possibility of the Government extending this system to Glasgow. 5295. Then, that meeting was called by gen- tlemen who opposed the extension of the Acts ? — It was. 5296. At Bristol, did a similar thing happen? — Yes. 5297. That meeting was called to denounce the proposition and to oppose it? — Yes, there was a general fear that the Government was about to adopt the proposals made at Vienna. I should like to mention that in that autumn I was in Naples, and an abolitionist meeting was held in Naples, and I asked the English Consul, Mr. Calvert, to be so kind as to preside at our meeting. He replied : " I am entirely with you in sympathy, but I am in difficulty about doing as you request, because I have received a cir- cular from the Government at home, which I believe has been received by all British consuls in seaports abroad, asking what is the amount of protection given to English sailors by the system in Naples, and desiring that I would use my F p 4 personal 232 MIXUTKS OV EVIDENCE TAKEN REFOKE THE 5 May 1S82.] Mrs. BuTLEu. f Continued, ]\Ir. Hupwood — continued. ])ersonal influence as much as possible to strengthen the system of the Contagious Diseases Acts in tliat port." Consefjuciitly Mr. Calvert came to our meeting and expressed sympathy, but did uot preside. This, we thought, was an additional indication of the temper of the English Government at that time. 5298. As regards the international character of your movement, both here and abroad, have you this confirmation : that a number of eminent foreigners have spoken at your public meetings in England in denimciation of the system ? — A number of eminent foreigners have come over here, wishing to warn the English people against continuing a system which has proved so de- structive to morality abroad. I may mention amongst those who have spoken on our platforms in ^lanchester, in Derby, and in London, ]M. de Prcssensc of Paris, and M. Emilc de Laveleye. The latter is perhaps the greatest living political economist. Several of the town councillors of Paris have been in England and spoken on the question, one of them being the Secretary of a Commission appointed in Paris similar to this, to inquire into the success or failure of the system in Paris. I might mention many others, but perhaps it would be tedious. I could give some considerable names of persons from the Conti- nent, town councillors, and magistrates of large Continental cities. 5299. You have supervised the presentation of a number of petitions from women, especially against these Acts, have you not? — Yes. 5300. Can you first give me any statistical idea of the number that you have presented ? — We have not got those for 1881 arranged yet. This list is officially made out by us. From 1870 to 1880 there were 270 petitions presented from women exclusively, the signatures amounting to 12.3,460 ; but this list, as you see, does not include all. Mr- Osborne Morgan. 5301. It does not Include the year 1881 ? — It does not include 1881, not yet a monster petition from women. Mr. IIoj>wood. 5302. Of these petitions were 35 from sub- jected districts, with 12,552 signatures ? — Yes, that is correct. 5303. Have you besides held a very large number of meetings? — We have had a very large number of meetings. 5304. Some of M'omen exclusively ? — Very many of women exclusively. 5305. And others of men and women ? — Yes. 5306. You have presented petitions from 316 women's meetings, have you not? — We have. 5307. Those would be in addition, of course, to the 270 that I have already asked you about ? — Yes. Besides those which have been given, a monster petition from women alone was pre- sented in support of jNIr. Fowler's Bill, I think, containing a quarter of a million signatures. 5308. Was that presented to the House of Commons? — It was presented to the House of Commons. It required two gentlemen to carry it in ; it was so large. iMr. William Fowler. 5309. In what year Avas that?— I find that my secretary has not jnit it down ; but I imderstand that it was in support of your Bill in the early part of the agitation. 5310. I brought in no Bill, I think, except in 1873? — Then 1 suppose it was in 1871. Mr. Hopwood. 5311. And tiiat petition was from women ex- clusively ? — From women exclusively ; 1 should like to say ihat that petition was obtained with- out any paid agency whatsoever, and without any centralised eflort. It was the spontaneous ex- pression of tlie women of the country. 5312. We have had some testimony here as to the feeling of the Nonconformist bodies upon this subject ; are you also aware of the feeling of a large number of tlie clergy of the Church of England as to these Acts, and can you give us some evidence as to that ? — We have some evi- dence as to that. A very large memorial was presented to Mr. Gladstone as the head of the Government, in 1873, signed by 2,000 clergymen of the Church of England. 5313. Was that presented to him by the late Canon Fowle of Salislniry ? — It was personally presented by the late Canon Fowle. 5314. Could you give us the names of some of the prominent signataries of that petition ? — The names of Dr. Moberly, Bishop of Salisbury, and of Dr. Sciwyn, Bishop of Lichfield, were not on that petition ; but they were in sympathy with us long before that petition, from the very be- ginning. 5315. Was It signed by Dr. Ewing, Bishop of Argyle ; Dr. Alford, Bishop of Victoria, Hong Kong; Dr. Pyan, Bishop of the Mauritius ; the present Bishop of Liverpool, Dr. Ryle ; the Deans of Ripon and Carlisle ; Archdeacons Sandford and Garbett, and others ; prebendaries and canons ? — Yes, and I may mention that the present Bishop of Durham, Dr. Lightfoot, and the Primus of Scotland are firm supporters of our cause. 5316. And were the remainder principally be- neficed clergy of the Church of England ? — They were almost aU beneficed clergy, for no endeavour was made to test curates and others. Masters of public schools figure largely in the list. 5317. Amongst the masters of public schools I see the name of the head master of Harrow ; is that the present head master, Dr. Butler ? — Yes 5318. The head master of Eton, Dr. Hornby; the head master of the City of London School, Dr. Abbott ; the head masters of Winchester, and of Liverjiool College, Canon Stanley Leathes, Canon Ellison, Canon Conway, and Canon Kawlinson, and many others ? — We have a very long list of clergy of some distinction ; they are in print. 5319. I believe that in 1879 there was a peti- tion prepared in support of Sir Harcourt John- stone's Bill signed by the clergy of London ? — Yes. 5320. Were there as many as 310 signatures to that petition? — Yes, that is the number; I have here the petition. 5321. I believe that, as a fact, that petition was not presented for this reason, that the sig- natures SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIODS DISEASES ACTS. 233 5 Miiif 1882.] Mrs. Butler. \^Cor>tinued. Mr. Hopwood — continued. natures were obtained on separate pieces of paper, and they are pasted upon it, and the petition was rejected as informal ? — That was the reason. The person who did it had not sufficient know- ledge of the method of collecting signatures. 5322. But, as a matter of fact, are these signa- tures the attestation of the agreement of 310 clergymen nf London with the movements with which you are identified ? —They are ; and those clergymen have signified their desire that it should be gone over again, and presented. 5323. I believe you have some note of the analysis of that petition, have you not ? — Yes, I have an analysis of it. 5324. I find here Dr. Abbott, whom you have already mentioned, head master of the City of London School; Mr. Oriel, prebendary of St. Paul's, and rector of St. Dunstan's (I do not propose to go through them all, but I will take two or three that strike me); Mr. F. S. Clarke, vicar of St. Peter's, Greenwich ; Mr. Baker, vicar of St. Michael and All Angel's, Woolwich; Mr. Berry, chaplain of the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich ; Mr. Sydney Clark, chaplain of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, who has served at Corfu, Parkhurst, Gibraltar, and Malta. Several of these places are under some system similar to these Acts, are they not '. — Corfu and Malta are. 5325. I see also the name of Mr. Houchiu, chaplain to the Duke of Cambridge, and Chap- lain to the Forces in London, and so on ; Dr. Stanley Leathes, prebendary of St. Paul's, and rector of Cliffe, near Rochester; Mr. McAllister, surrogate, vicar of I-'lumstead ; Mr. North, vicar of Holy Trinity, Greenwich; Mr. Quarter- main, chaplain to Her Majesty's Ship War spite, and chaplain to the Woolwich, Plurastead, and Charlton Union? — Might I be permitted to men- tion that Canon Wilberforce, of Southampton , is one of our strong adherents ; I had neglected to mention his name. 5326. 1 see also the name of Mr. Servite, vicar of Christ Church, Stratford, formerly of Woolwich; and Dr. John T'homs, canon of Canterbury, and vicar of Allhallows, Barking. There are a good many more, but those seem to be such as you would desire to mention ? — Yes. 5327. Now I will take you, if you please, a little more specifically to the grounds upon which you oppose these Acts. Let us take the con- stitutional ground: I believe you have, yourself, written one or two works upon this subject, having been stirred to do so by the passing of these laws? — Yes, I wrote a book called the "Constitution Violated," which is legal in its arguments from l^eginning to end. 5328. You have, in that work, entered into your views of the law, and shown how far these Acts are, in your judgment, a violation of the principles of English Constitution law? — I have. 5329 In the first place, with regard to the legal requirement of placing women upon a register for this purpose, would you tell us what is the effect upon the women themselves first, with a view to reclamation ? — You are speaking from the moral point of view, and not from a legal point of view just now ? O.7.J. Mr. Hopiuood — continued. 5330. Yes; I thought your views on the legal point would be sufficiently made known to the Committee in that Avork of yours ; but if you please it is quite with you to state any points that you may desire to put before the Committee? — I should like to state that we are deeply con- cerned that the first principles of jurisprudence, which hold not only in England but all over the world, should not be seriously and habitually violated in our country. One of the first prin- ciples of all just law is, that a suspected and accused person is protected against all danger of inci'itninating himself. Under the Contagious Diseases Acts the voluntary submission is a self- crimination. Another ])rinciple of all just con- stitutional law is that the accused person is held innocent until proved to be guilty. Under the Contagious Diseases Acts, the woman is held to be guilty, unless she can prove her own innocence. All just constitutional law forbids an indecent assault upon the person, and punishes, with im- prisonment, such assaults. The Contagious Diseases Acts decree an indecent assault uf)on the person. These are some of our views. 5331. What do you say as to the like violation of constitutional principle in the setting of men in plain clothes as spies to watch the movements of women exclusively ? — W e think that that action is arbitrary ; that the women when placed under police control, under the discretionary power of the police, are under an arbitrary Government, and not under the protection of the law, — I do not mean this law, but the constitu- tional law of the countrJ^ 5332. Is it felt as an objection to this spy system by women of a superior class, that a man should have a right to watch their actions to see whether they are, or are not, of the class that he is in search of? — It is deeply felt ; I was sur- prised at the beginning of the agitation to find how much there was amongst educated women of the spirit of the Puritan times, and of the times of the Reformation. Many of us would be glad to die, not only for our religious convictions, but for the purity of our laws. Women feel ex- ceedingly strongly on the legal point. 5333. Do you also feel it to be objectionable that this exception to ordinary law should be created by men for the benefit of men ? — In that aspect it cannot but seem to us selfish, and I must say, cowardly. 5334. Have not you, and also those whom you have met, been struck with the injustice of seeking to cure disease by enactments only pressing upon one of two parties to the promul- gation of that disease? — That is a manifest in- justice, an injustice to which the working classes of this country are especially alive ; that feeling is very strong indeed, not with women only ; I think it is equally strong with the men of the humbler classes in this country. 5335. Hitherto I have been limiting my ques- tions to what women feel ; have you also found a very large number of men everywhere, who have felt with the women upon all these points ? — I have attended hundreds of meetings of working-men electors, and of working women; and it would be difficult to overstate the strength of the feeling that exists amongst those men as G G " tt) 234 MINUTKS OF KVlUKNOli lAKEN liK.l'Olti; TIIi; 5 May 1882.] Mrs. BuTLKK. [ Cmiti lived. ]\Ir. llojiwood — continued, to the injustice iiiul unfairness of these Acts as between men and women. 533(i. W'iien you sjjeaiv of the strengtli of the feeling, docs it rise to indijin.vtion at tlicse meet- ings '.' — It docs. I may mention that very great indignation was expressed by tlie working people, including some soldiers, at the Colchester elec- tion, when Sir Henry Storks was defeated by our ])arty ; at the Poutcfract election ; and at the election at Oxford, when 'Sir. Ijcwis was de- feated, for the see(»nd time, by our jiarty. It was the indignation chiefly of the working-men electors ■which carried our cause there. \\ c did not de- feat Mr. Cliilders at his election ; but I know, personally from hini, that the amount of the opposition impressed him considerably. 5337. You mean to say that it impressed him ■with the de]nh of the public feeling on the sub- ject? — With the depth of the public feeling on the unfairness of this legislation. 5338. You have sj)oken of the defeats of Mr. Lewis and Sir Henry Storks as being due to this feeling ; I do not know whether you have any proof of that ; but do you say that, at all events, it largely contributed to their defeat? — 1 ■was in Colchester myselt' a fortnight before the election with a pai-ty of friends, perhaps 15 to 20 persons. Bj- appealing to the conscience of all the electors of the town, who ^we believed had some fear of God and some respect for the purity of English law, we reckoned, by a careful calcu- lation, that 400 abstained from voting ; and it ■was their a[)stention from voting which caused Sir Henry Storks to be defeated by a majority of either 500 or 700, I am not (luite sure which. He himself felt it so, and sent his agent to me at the last moment, to beseech nie to leave the town, and to make some sort of overtures ; but these overtures did not satisfy me. 5339. Was the feeling very strong at Col- chester, as shown by the language at the public meetings? — The meetings were so crowded that ■we could scarcely find j)lace for the people ; on the other hand, there was very violent opposition, as you may believe, and personal violence offered. 5340. Then, perhaps wo may lest tlic eflect of the opposition by the fact that Sir Henry Storks' snpj)orters ■were very angry ? — 1 hey were very angry indeed. 5341. So much so that it led to threats, and some exhibition of personal violence ? — 1 do not attribute tbo^c acts of personal violence to any one connected with the Government, but to the supporters of Sir Henry Storks. 5342. A feeling of exasperation was produced by the movement to which you have referred ? — Certainly. If I may be permitted to mention it, the persons who were guilty of the greatest violence upon that occasion, which endangered, I may say, our lives, \\ ere keepers of the houses of ill farce, a fact which I considered significant, as showing how much in favour of this system they are. 5343. I do not know whether there is anything more tliat you desire to tell us about Colchester, and your reason for thinking that your ojjposition had a large effect u])ou the result produced ?— Nothing more, I think. 5344. At Oxford, was your O] -position on ^Ir. floj/wood — continued, more than one occasion? — C)nly cm one occa- sion. 5345. That -was the second occasion, 1 think, that Mr. 1). Lewis stood for Oxford? — It was u bye election, I think, when Lord CardwcU was raised to the peerage. 5346. I believe he had been prominent in the defence of this system in the House of Commons, had he not? — He liad. 5347. Did you and those acting with you do your best at Oxford to anuise opposition to him in consequence of bis support of this system ? — Solely on that ground ; we had nothing whatever against hbn besides his sujiport of this systeu). 5348. Have you good reason to believe that your opposition did him great harm in his can- ■\ass ? — 1 have good reason to know that. We gathered together, for example, the temperance ]>eo]ile in that city, Good Templars, and others: and tlicl)issentii\g ministers and i)ersons engaged in any kind of religious work ; and it was their abstaining from voting, especially the temperance vote, I think, which turned the election ; and that was the more remarkable because I think the ])Crson who was elected in |)Iace of Mr. Lewis was I^Ir. Hall, who was a brewer. The eN])ression of feeling in the city was very strong against ]Mr. Lewis on account of his advocacy of thc-e Acts. 5349. Is there anything further that you would like to say as regards the Pontefract election ? — Perhaps it is not worth while to say more than that an impression was made upon Mv. Childera at the time. We have proof of it since iu his expressions. 5350. We have spoken of the constitutional aspect of this question with regard to individual liberty; would you turn now, if you please, to your view of it in a moral aspect, and its eflect as an examjile, and its effect upon one object of your life, viz., the reclamation of women ". — This is a large subject. The effect generally on society at large is one question ; the effect on women who are fallen is the point which I understand you wish to bring to nie. A large experience of the Continent and of England together convinces me that that registration, and all that registration in- volves, hardens the women to the last degree. It deprives them of the sense of right over themselves, the most sacred right of a woman, and of control over themselves ; it i.^ con- stantly expressed in this way on the Con- tinent, that she is no longer a person, but " /« chose dc I udministrution" X\\e thing of the Go- vernment. A woman may be very degraded outside the Acts; I do not "ish to palliate the depth of degradation to which some fall; but so long as she is a free agent she can at any moment return into the path of virtue if she will ; she can, if she feels a sentiment of disgust, at any moment withdraw from her profession. She does not always do it, because the will becomes enervated and habit is strong; but she has the inner con- sciousness that she can do it. 5351. But under a system like this she has to ask the leave of the men to allow her to reform, and to leave her path of vice ?— She has to go through a certain [jroccss, I understand, to ha\ e her name taken off the register. 5352. She Jias to obtain the leave of men ? — She has ; but tliat is not all. That is a liin- (b^.aieo. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 235 5 Mat! 1882.] Mrs. Butler. [ Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued, drance, a practical hindrance to her immediate return to a life of virtue, enough to deter a poor weak-minded woman from returning ; but the degradation is in the fact that she is a cliattel, a thing, not a person, As the registered women tell me themselves, she is a vessel periodically cleansed for public use ; she is a mere instrument. " I am not a woman," they say to me. , Chairman. 5353. Do you mean English women? — -English women say that. " I am not a woman ; I am simply a tool ; a vessel soiled, and cleansed at the Government expense for public use." This is the secret of the immense degradation of the person. I hold that to be much more important even than the difficulty of getting off the register. ]Mr. Hopiuood. 5354. When I spoke of the difficulty I did not mean that it was necessarily, becatise it was of man that she had to ask, but because she had to ask of anyone at all, leave to return and to be let alone in a life of purity, or improved be- haviour ? — That is certainly a great hindrance. 5355. Then, as I understand, you lay very great stress upon the fact that the woman is not mistress of her own life from the moment she is registered under this law ? — I quite endorse what you say, and there is one point which makes it a great hardship. It is not difficult, I know by my experience, for a prostitute not under these Acts to obtain at once, even without passing through any home or refuge, some poor but honest labour, some situation. Thus she at once leaves her past behind her. Under the Acts it is much more difficult. A woman who is on the register, if she seeks and obtains a situation, is liable to have a policeman constantly looking her up; and that is death to her hopes ; no I'espectable person will have a servant who is being lool^ed up by the police to come up for examination. That is a very decided hindrance to their leaving a life of vice. 5356. From what you have seen, do you be- lieve that the most fallen woman loses all sense of shame, or do you believe that there are very rare instances of that ? — I have never met with one who had lost all sense of shame in her sober moments. In a state of intoxication you cannot answer for her. 5357. I speak particularly with regard to the submission to inspection and examination? — • Amongst those women whom I have known not under the Acts, I have never met with one so hardened that I could not entertain hope for her. 5358. Do you believe that the effect of the operation of tlie Acts and their concomitant ex- aminations is to overcome to a certain degree, the repugnance, and abhorence, and sense of shame which you would rather see continued ? — It must inevitably be so. 5359. And the absence of those feelings would lead you almost to despair of reclaiming the per- son who had lost them ? — The only fallen women I have seen who are, I should say, humanly speaking, hopeless, are those subjected to these regulations. They seem to me utterly hard. 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued. There is at the depth of their hardness a certain desperate despondency. They assume, in out- ward conversation with me, a manner which I have not seen in any others, a cold official man- ner, not unlike the manner that I have met with in men, when I have been on deputations to heads of the police, and so on, — the kind of man- ner that gives you the impression of saying '' I belong to the Government ; I am under the Government ; you are not ; I have nothing to say to you." They assume a sort of pride (I believe it is to cover the shame and misery within) in belonging to the Government, in being Queen's women. Their manner is quite official ; I never met with such a manner amongst any other fallen women. The coldness with which they treat me reminds me, as I tell you, very much of that of male official persons : " standoff, we belong to the Government ; you have no- thing to say tn us " ; and, therefore, it is in vain to try to influence them for their good. 5360. I do not know whether, amongst other matters, you have read in the proceedings before this Committee, a description of these women given by Dr. Cook, of the London Lock Hospital, in answer to Question 2684, of the 31st March last? — I have read that description. 5361. He is asked, '•' What distinction is there between the two classes?" (He is comparing the women outside the Acts with those under the Acts.) And his answer is, " The distinction is this, and I think it is obvious to almost any one at first sight that the Government patients are horribly alike, at one dull dead level. The ordinary patients are very mixed, some of more and some of less education, some of more and some of less refinement of appearance ; but the Government patients are brutalised beyond des- cription in appearance and in manner. As I speak to them it is painful." Is that your view? — As I read that description it seemed to me the exact picture of the women 1 met with in Brussels, in Paris, and in Naples, who are registered women. 5362. May I ask you, without odiously dis- tinguishing nationality, whether you have found the women who have been under the system, as it is abroad, even more indurated than some of those you are speaking of under the system here ? — I can scarcely say that they are worse. 5363. They are much the same? — They are much the same. 5364. And you think that the effect of the system is to bring them to the same level ? — It is. 5365. Is the effect of the debasement of those women confined to themselves, or does it, in your judgment, spread itself in some degree to the community in which they dwell? — It spreads it- self very largely. The poorer class of working women of the towns where these Acts are in force are demoralised in the sense that their con- science becomes confused as to the distinction between right and wrong. The same is the case with the male youth of those towns. I should like to state that the conscience becomes confused in this way, because the State action, elevating this profession into a sort of recognised, legalised industry, removes the essential element of guilt from the act of prostitution itself, to the iufringe- G G 2 ment 23G MINUTKS oK EVIIjENCK VAKKN UEFOUK T}!!: Molishing the State Regu- lation of Vice ?'' — It is wrong to describe me as an agent of that league, because I am not an agent of that league. 5524. You would be the representative, I suppose ? — I was simply there on that occasion lecturing for the league, but I am not an agent of the league. 5525. You are described on the 18th of De- cember in the " Whitehaven Guardian " as " the Rev. J. P. Gledstone, an agitator for the repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts,'' I suppose you do not consider j'ourself an agitator ? — It does not trouble me how they describe me. 5526. Are you a representative of the Northern Counties' League ? — No, I have no official con- nection with the Northern Counties' League. 5527. Then my honourable friend addressed this question to Dr. Darr : " So far as your ex- perience of the Acts and knowledge of their working go, is there any foundation of truth for that observation?" (that is as to the alleged cowardly and brutal conduct of the police.) And his answer was, " It is a most untrue obser- vation ; virtuous women, whether speaking to soldiers or not, are protected by the metropolitan police. The metropolitan police know well the difference between a prostitute and a virtuous woman, and if they interfered at all it would be in a case of bad behaviour on the part of the soldier, or anyone else. I say that the presence of the police under these Acts is a protection to virtuous women. Virtuous women come to them for advice and information ; it is only prostitutes they have to deal with, not virtuous women, in their official duties, and they could not make a mistake like that insinuated." Having heard what Dr. Barr said in answer to my honourable friend, I should be glad if you could place before the SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 245 5 May 1882.] Rev. J. P. Gledstone. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch — continued, the Committee any instances, within your know- ledge, in Avhich the Contagious Diseases Acts' police have been guilty of any such acts as those referred to in your lecture at Whitehaven ? — T rest that statement first of all upon the report of Cap- tain Harrisfor 187-3, on page6, paragraphs, where he says, •' The presence too of the officers em- ployed is well known to the class of girls most likely to go astray, and the dread of detection is very salutary. In proof of this, young women in the position of domestic servants and others after nightfall leave their male acquaintances dii-ectly the police employed under the Acts appear in sight." I wish to go on witli my further vindication of the ground upon which I made that statement, which would be this — I have read the statement which was issued by Mr. Frederic Wheeler, of Rochester, with regard to a case which occurred on the 30th of November 1875. I believe that case has been before this Committee. 5528. Is that the celebrated Wybrow case? — That is the Caroline AYybrow case. Then further, I have had in my mind a case which was brought under my attention by an old Wes- leyan minister, the Rev. George Barnley, whom I met at Keighley. He reported this case at a meeting there, and I asked him to be good enough to send me a letter giving the details of it. I have the letter here. It would come under the rule of evidence that you have already laid down. The girl concerned became a servant in liis em- ployment ; I refer to that. Then, as a further vindication of my assertion with regard to the police, I shall now feel my self at liberty to use a case which was brought before the Dover magistrates last Friday, wlien I was sitting in this chair as a witness ; and I should like, if it be permissible, to read a few sentences from the evidence given with regard to this case, inasmuch as they so completely bear out what I have said with re- gard to the police. 5529. This is a tremendous charge against a very respectable body of men, and I think no man has a right to make such a charge, unless he brings direct evidence in its support ; and I ask you now, what is the evidence upon which you venture to make this statement that the Contagious Diseases Acts' police have been guilty of cowardly and brutal conduct, making it absolutelj' dangerous for a decent woman in a place like Aldershot to answer any question put by a soldier. I ask you to give me and the Committee the evidence in full, and the grounds upon which you make that statement ? — I make that statement upon Captain Harris's report, which I have already read, and I recapitulate the instances which I have already referred to. 5530. Those instances are an extract from Captain Harris' report, and Caroline Wybroiv's case ? — Yes, and the experience of a servant of a friend of mine, and the case of a servant who was in the employment of a Wesleyan minister. 5531. Are you awaie that Caroline Wybrow"s case is a disputed case ? — I should think there never was any case that was not disputed yet ; but the disputing of it does not invalidate it. 5532. Are you aware that it is not yet closed before this Committee? — I understood that it was closed. 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued. 5533. Are you under the impression that it is closed? — I was under the impression that the case was established. 5534. I understand that those are all the eases which you can mention now as justifying the statement concerning the cowardly and brutal conduct of the police ? — I regard those as an ample justification of the statement, 5535. They are the only ones you have ? — The only ones ; I do not think it is necessary that I should add case to case. Mr, Hopwond. 5536. Do you know Mrs. Percy's case ? — I do. 5537. Would you wish to mention that case ? — No, because I feel that the cases I have enumerated are sufficient to substantiate what I said in public. Nothing can be more general than the statement of Captain Harris himself. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 5538. Subsequently to this lecture delivered by you at Whitehaven, and in reply to a letter signed M. S., but signed by the na-iter's real name in another newspaper, written by a Mr. Mivast, you, speaking of the events that have happened since, Avhat you call the yellow docu- ment of 1871 (that is the Report of the Royal Commission), and referring to the events subse- quent to that Report, write : " I say notwith- standing this yellow old document of 1871, upon personal investigation made by me in some sub- jected places, that poor women are not free from molestation by the police." Does that represent actually what you wrote ? — That is a letter signed by myself, written on 6th June. 5539. Will you kindly tell the Committee what were the subjected places where you made this ])ersonal investigation ? — The term here "places" is too general. I ought to have only referred to a place ; but the thing in my mind was that I had been to several places, and that at one of them, the case of this servant was brought under my notice, the case of the servant in my friend's employment ; and I regard that as symp- tomatic of a decided feeling of distrust on the part of the poor women. 5540. Does this statement written by you refer to any other cases than those you have already mentioned to the Committee ? — So far as my experience goes, it did not. 5541. Further down in the same letter you write : " Leaving the police, and going to the doctors, it is their appointment that rests with. the War or Admiralty Office, and so they are practically the women's gaolers when they are sent to the hospitals, we have another count against the Acts." Will you kindly explain what you mean by that? — I think those doctors have too much power over these women when they are in hospital as to the time they shall be confined there. 5542. But do you think the doctors in any way abuse their powers ? — I do not know of in- stances, but I object to their having the possi- bility of doing so in their hands. 5543. I understand that you have a general objection, but that you have no instances in which they have abused their power? — No, I have no instances : I should hold this objectioii H II 3 simply 246 MINUTES OK I'lVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOIIK THE May 1882. J Ivev. J. r Gledstone. [ CoHtiiuted. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, -imjilv with the Acts in my hand. There is one point which I feel, as Mr. Cavendisii Bentinck has hrought tills Whitehaven matter up, should be set thoroughly right, inasmuch as corres- pondence has passed in the newspapers, and it was said that I was challenged to appear before this Committee, i was not challetiged to appear before this Committee. When my name was mentioned Mr. Stansfeld said he would call me. In Mr. Cavendish Bentinck's examination of Mr. Shacn before this <'onimittee, if I remember rightly, he says, "' That I made my speech at Whitehaven rest almost entirely upon charges of brutality and cowardice on the part of the police; " I wish to deny that most distinctly to-day. Mr. Hopwood. 5544. Upon what ground did you make your charges beside that of brutality ? — If I said charges against the police, I meant charges against the .vets. Mr. Cavendisii Beutiuck said that my case against the Acts was made to rest on charges against the police of brutal and cowardly conduct. That 1 wish to deny. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, 5545. I am the last man in the world to wish to misrepresent you or anybody else ? — I am quite sure of that. Mr. Hopwood. 5546. Your attention was called to a regula- tion about the admission of ministers to the hospitals ; I think the doctors' leave, and a formal application and so on is necessary, is it not? — I understand it to be necessary. 5547. Do you know of any instance of a Dis- senting minister applying for admission and being refused ? — I never heard of any one applying, and so I have never heard of any one being refused. 5548. But at ;ill events, as far as we know, an Established Church clergyman is the minister at the hos]))tal ? — As far as we know. 5549. We are not to assume that ail these un- happy women are Church women to a certainty? — I should doubt very much pooi' creatures what church they belong to; I should not like to separate them. 5550. On the discharge from any other hos- pital a woman is free ; but when she leaves this examination room she is not free, I think ? — She is not free when she leaves the examination room. • 5551. In fact, when she goes away, it is con- templated that she is going to resume her trade ? — That is the. understanding upon which she goes. 5552, In fact, she is licensed to do so? — She is licensed to do so. With regard to visiting hospitals, since I gave my evidence last week, I have remembered a case, which I feel justifies me in the hesitation I then expressed with regard to the efficiency of the religious teaching in these hospitals. 1 doubted whether there was free access oiFered to persons to go, or whether that access, if obtained, was worth much; and after appearing before the Committee, I remembered distinctly the case of a lady who attended one of these hospitals to speak to the poor women there; but she was put either in a corner of a Mr. Hopwood — continued, large room, or in a room by hersell : my im- pression is that it was in a room hy hersell'. The girls were told that she was there, and that if any of them wished to sec her and speak witii her on religious matters, they could go to her. She felt that this arrangement was altogether so useless that she gave up attending the hospital. 555;i. That is an instance that has occurred within your knowledgs of some one being, at all events, by the facts discouraged, from going on bringing reclamation as it were to these girls from outside ? — It is. 5554. You were asked some questions about the voluntary submission, and the len^ith of time for which it is given. Perhaps I might refer you to Mr. Anniss' evidence upon that jioint. At Question 4147 of the evidence of 1881, he is asked: "What is your general rule?'" and he says, " In the case of young girls, where there is a likelihood of their discontinuing the mode of life, I get them signed for one, two, or three months. In the case of a woman who has been in hospital, or is known to be an old prostitute outside the district, I get them signed for 12 months. But I would like to show tliat in every case a woman, as I said just now, is told l)('f'ore she leaves the room, if she is found free from disease, that she will be exempt from that ex- amination if she discontinues her mode of life, prostitution." Does that case, to your mind, show that here is a j)oliceraan Avho is entrusted with the discretion of enrolling women for two, three, four, five, or 12 months at his pleasure ? — It seems to me that he has too much power over the future lives of these girls in the way of sug- gesting for what length of time they should be upon the register. 5555. I think you were asked some questions about Mr. Bomjjas' opposition, were you not? — The Judge Advocate General referred to the opposition which Mr. Bompas had offered before the Congregational Union. 5556. That is at Question 4565. " Did not Mr. Bompas oppose it? — (A.) Mr. Bompas op- posed it, but Mr. Bompas' standing in the Union might have been cjuestioned, though we did not question it. Mr. Bompas really is a Baptist, and not an Independent ; it was, I think, a mere matter of courtesy that he was allowed to speak, or to vote, on that occasion." Did Mr. Bompas' speech show to your mind that it was founded on incorrect information and hearsay ? — It did. I thought that Mr. Bompas made a very reckless and a very baseless assertion to the meeting. 5557. He said this : " Many of you do not live in the seaports ; but go to any one of the pro- tected places, and you will find that the majority of the Christian ministers of all denominations will say that that is true?" Now, I have can- vassed all the ministers of my denomination thoroughly, and 1 have letters in reply, and I say that the statement advanced by Mr. Bompas upon that occasion, so far as my denomination is concerned, is totally without foundation. 5558. Perhaps you heard him make another statement, that there were only five prostitutes in Winchester? — I heard him make that state- ment. 5559. And perhaps you know that by Captain Harris' return 12 are shown? — I referred to Captain SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 247 5 Mm/ 1882.] Rev. J. 1'. Gledstone. [ Continued. M r. Hopivood — continued. Captain Harris' I'eturn, and I found that it was mere hearsay on the pai-t of Mr. Bompas to give this statement ; but such statements I find have very great weight, coming from such men. It was mere hearsay evidence. I turned to Cap- tain Harris' report, and I found that from the beginning of the operation of the Acts down to the year 1 880, the number of prostitutes at Winchester had never been less than 10, which is double the number that Mr. Bompas had given: and in the year 1880, the last year that there is any return for, the number was 12. 5560. I think, in Captain Harris' return for 1880, page 17, on the 31st of December 1880, you will find 12 is the number recorded ? — There are 12 ; that would be the last official re- turn made. 5561 . Then you were asked about your know- ledge of the vice existing at Southampton as compared with unsubjected places, and you were asked, at Question 4612, to express the opinion of persons in whom you could place implicit con- fidence, and which led you to believe that the populatioti of Southampton is more vicious than that of any town of the same size, say Birming- ham or Manchester, or Bradford, where the Acts are not in operation. Your answer is '•' From statements made to me by respectable j^eople in Southampton, I should believe that the condition of young people in Southampton is worse with regard to this particular vice than in a town like Birmingham or Bradford, or those northern towns." Can you illustrate that by any evidence or opinions that you have since obtained ? — I should like to draw attention to the following Question, 4613, because the question framed there is in more precise and particular terms, and I feel that the answer which I gave to it was not so precise and particular as it ought to have been ; it is too general. 5562. At Question 4613 you were asked the following question : •' Have you any means of comparing a seaport town like Hull, for instance, where the Acts are not in operation, and South- ampton where they are in operation ; could you give us any data within your own knowledge which lead you to the conclusion that the popu- lation of Southampton, and particularly the youthful male population, is more vicious than that of Hull, or is it mere surmise ?" and your answer is : •' I have never lived in Hull ; but comparing other towns in which I have lived, and as tO' which I can speak from my own obser- vation, with Southampton, judging from the statements made to me by people in Southampton, I should say that there was more juvenile wrong- doing in Southampton than in the other towns " ? — That reply, I feel, was too general in this re- spect, that inasmuch as the question contains this clause, " particularly the youthful male population," my information referred more par- ticularly to the girls in Southampton. From the condition of the girls I infer that the con- dition of the boys is also very bad. I had also the general testimony of two respectable gentle- men, who have long lived in Southampton, with regard to the boj^s ; but, inasmuch as I did not ask them particularly on that point, I have felt that that answer was too wide. In consequence of that I went to Southampton yesterday to make 0.75. M r. Hupwood — continued, further inquiries, and I was there introduced to a gentleman who knows the town thoroughly well, and who has also lived in districts not under the Acts ; and he tells me that as compared with such a town as Hull, near which he was born, the condition is not one of comparison, but of contrast as regards the morality of the youth of both sexes. 5563. To the disadvantage or to the advantage of Southampton?— To the disadvantage of South- ampton. Chairman. 556J. That is from his own experience? — From his own experience. Mr. Hopwood. 5565. Have you the petition presented by the inhabitants of Southampton as to young girls ? — I have a copy here of a petition which was pre- sented in July 1879 to the House. The number of the petition is 12,047. It refers to this question of the number of girls in Southampton. 5566. If there is any short paragraph that you could read that expresses it, perhaps yoti will do so ? — It is a petition of ministers of religion and others resident in the town and neighbourhood of Southampton, and it shows :'• That your peti- tioners reside in the town and neighbourhood of Southampton, which is subjected to the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts relating to women, and are well acquainted with the dis- trict. That your petitioners have had their attention called to the yearly report of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts' police, and amongst other things, to the following figures : that in South- ampton, which has a population of nearly 54,000 persons, there were in the year ending 31st of December 1876, only one common woman under 18 years of age, and only four between the ages of 18 and 19, and that in December 1877 there were only two such women under 17 years of age, and six between the ages of 17 and 18 ; and that at the close of 1877 there wera only 98 such women of all ages under and over 31 years of age. Your petitioners are shocked to find that these absolutely unreliable statements have been placed before Parliament year by year in an official return on the operation of the Acts bearing the signature of Captain Harris. If it had been stated to your honourable House in the aforesaid return that for humane and prudential reasons the police refrained from putting juvenile prostitutes on the register and submitting them to the demoralising effects of the Acts, your petitioners would have no reason to complain. But they observe that the object of the figures referred to is to lead your honourable House and the country at large to believe that juvenile vice is being stamped out by these Acts." 5567. That contests the accuracy of the figures given under Captam Harris' report, and treats them as grossly incorrect I may say ? — Grossly incorrect. That petition is signed by several Non- conformist ministers, and I notice the name of one clergyman at least upon it, and of several magis- trates. 5568. Is one of them Mr. W. B. Randall, J. p., the (Chairman of the School Board ? — One of them is. 5569. And another is Mr. W. C. Westlake, H H 4 J. P., 248 MIXOrES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 5 May 1882.] Rev. .r. P. Gledstone. [ Continued. Mr. Ilopwood — continued. J.iv, and a number of others, I believe, respect- able bv iHisitiou ? — Yes, Major General Try on signed it, and Mr. Edwin Hoarne, J. P., and •John T. Tucker, .r.p. 5i370. You were considerably pi-essed by some questions in regard to how you would supply the deficiency if the Government subvention to Lock Hospitals was to cease, say to-morrow, or within a few months from now. In t!ie first place, is it necessary that things should be done so violently: might it not begin by jjutting an end to the com- j)ulsory examination, for instance ? — I have not gone into the vaiious siej)S by which it might be brought about; but it seems to me that the alternative presented to us is a very extreme one. 5571. You were asked about the number of beds that were open to ])eoi)le niflicted with these maladies ; do you at all accept the statement made to you and which you are asked to take as a true hypothesis V — Not the statement of Mr. Liowndes : for I read one of his pamphlets a few years ago in favour of the extension of the Acts, I think to Liverpool, and I found so many errors in that pamphlet, that 1 should take anything he said with very great caution. 5572. Is it a fact that he is a very strong partisan on the other side ? — He is a very strong partisan on the other side. 5573. I think one of the questions put to you assumed that if the Government hospitals were closed to-morrow, or if the Government sub- vention to the hospitals was withdrawn, it would close 6G4 beds, and therefore shut out 664 poor women wlio are in need of surgical treat- ment. From' Captain Harris' return does it appear that there were only 242 women in hospital on the 31st of December 1880? — Tavo hundred and forty-two. 5574. That is a large deduction from the sup- posed 664 with which you are pressed in the question, is it not ? — Yes, it is 420 less. 5575. It was also suggested to you that there were above 450 beds in the United Kingdom available for this purpose ; are you aware that it has been stated beibre us, in the evidence of Mr. Lane last year, at Question 2666, that there are 200 beds in London alone ; he is asked " Wiiat other accommodation is there in London for that class of disease ? " and he says : " I can- not speak very positively as to that ; but I be- lieve they have a ward at St. Bartholomew's Hospital and at .St. Thomas' Hospital ; but the secommodation is very limited indeed. I should think that 2C0 beds in the whole of London ^vould comprise it all : but I cannot speak posi- tively as to that." There you see that so very high an authority as Mr. Laue i)uts the number as at least 200, and he will not positively say- that there are not more ? — Yes. 5576. You have been asked about the treat- ment enjoined upon the surgeons by the confi- dential instructions ; are you aware that those confidential instructions are in no way part of the Act, or jirescribed by the Act ? — I know that they are not : they are instructions issued by the departments that have the working of the Acts, and the instructions might be altered at any time at their pleasure. 5577- Do you think that that is a satisfactory Mr. Hopwood — continued. state of things in a matter affecting the liberty of the jicople ? — I think it is very unsatisfactory ; and so far as it is written, and published to the country, the instructions that might be under the eye of the country to-day might be altered to- morrow. Chairman. 5578. Do you mean to say that the confiden- tial instructions might i)e altered? — The confi- dential instructions might be altered to-morrow, and the country might be misled by the published ones that are abroad. Mr. Hopwood. 5579. As to the suggestion that under these confidential instructions, by Section 9 of the Act of 1869, the surgeon may, on satisfactory evidence, release a woman from the register, you were asked whether you could suggest anything easier by which she could be got off the register; as I understand your reply is that she should not be on the register to begin with? — Quite so. 5580. But you will observe that by these con- fidential instructions the surgeon is to do this on satisfactory evidence ; does not that to your mind give him a very large extension of power ? — It does ; and I feel that the surgeons and the police have far too much power over these women ; in fact, they have power that they ought not to have at all, not a vestige of it. 5581. Perhaps you are aware that we have it in evidence before us that in Wybrow's case the girl was subjected to punishment and to tea diet at the will of the surgeon ? — I understand that she was. 5582. And that he has, in fact, been repri- manded for doing so, and the reprimand i.s printed in our Papers ? — That I was not aware of. 5583. In Mr. Ealpli Thompson's letter to the medical officer in charge of the Lock Hospital, dated the 5th of July 1876, he says: "It appears from your report that on one day you ordered this girl to be placed on tea diet on account of her unridy and defiant conduct towards you. Although as explained by you this may have been a lenient form of punishment, I am to point out that the Contagious Diseases Acts give medical officers no power of punish- ment for offences in hospital, and that your action was therefore irregular." That is a repri- mand, is it not ? — It is a reprimand, and a very severe one. 5584. Does not the fact of that being done by a surgeon, a gentleman of education, show you the danger of entrusting these powers to any man over any man or woman ? — It does. 5585. "With regard to the question of a woman applying for her discharge to the sui'geon who may on satisfactory evidence, if he pleases, dis- miss her, ir is pointed out here, that under the 25th Section of the same Act, if any woman detained in any hospital considers herself entitled to be discharged, and the medical office)' refuses to discharge her, she may be conveyed before a justice : that is to say, she has an appeal to a justice. That is still multiplying the difficulties, is it not? — It is increasing the difficulties, as I said in my evidence a week ago. 5586. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 249 5 May 1882.] Kev. J. P. Gledstone. [ Coutinued. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 5586. You have been asked with regard to an answer which you gave on a former occasion at 4-131, as to your opinion in regard to the im- pression of legal and Government sanction to prostitution entertained by the prostitute class itself; have you partly derived that opinion from the evidence given before the Royal Commission ? —Yes. 5587. Women describing themselves as Queen's women or Government women ? — Queen's women and Government women. 5588. Is not that to your mind an inevitable result of a system like this? — The inevitable result. 5589. Then you were asked, in 4485, as to whether you had seen Colonel Tucker's letter about some regiment in Dublin ; perhaps you may be aware from the evidence before us that some regiments have an immoral pre-eminence over othei's for the amount of sexual vice that is disclosed by the state of disease amongst them ? — I am aware of that. 5590. And before deciding upon the merits of Colonel Tucker's letter, perhaps you would like to know whether that gentleman himself is par- ticularly cautious and correct in his figures, and whether his agents who suj^ply those figures are Mr. Hopwood — coutinued. particularly cautious and correct? — I should not accept the letter except on substantial ground. 5591. With regard to the question of sub- scriptions for hospitals being small or otherwise, apart from the objection to contribute to a hos- pital which is exclusively devoted to these diseases, are you not aware that while a matter of this sort is being subsidised by the Govern- ment independent action is very likely to be paralysed for the time ? — When the work is being done by the Government there is no inducement to the public to do it. 5592. You were asked about Mi-. Galbraith's opinion as to abrogating a penalty sent by God ; do you think that Mr. Galbraith ever expressed himself in these precise words, so far as your knowledge of him is concerned? — My knowledge of him would not justify me in saying whether he was likely to use language like that or not. I am not familiar with his phraseology, though I should know the tone of his voice anywhere if I heard it. I should like it to be made clear to the Committee that with regard to Question 4613, upon which I spoke too generally last week, upon the information that I obtained yesterday, I now abide by that answer in its widest and most general terms. 0.75. II 250 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tuesday, 9th Mat/ 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Dr. Cameron. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Ilopwood. Mr. 0;?borne Alorgau. Mr. O'Sliauglincssy. Mr. StaiKsfeld. (JoloncI Tottenham. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr. AA'il.LiAM Fergcson, called in; and Examined. Mr. Statisfcld. 5593. You reside at Kinmundie, Aberdeen- shire, do you not? — I do. 5594. Are you a deputy lieutenant and a jus- tice of the peace of that county? — I am. 5595. You are a member, and an elder, 1 be- lieve, of the Free Cliurch of Scotland ? — I am. 5596. Are you the convener or chairman of the As.^cmbly's Committee on the subject of the Contagious Diseases Acts? — I am. 5597. You have not, I am afraid, had an op- portunity of reading the evidence given by the Kev. ]\lr. Gledstone the other day, before this Committee ? — I have not. 5598. Under these circumstances I have no choice but to ask you some questions which, otherwise, I might have avoided. You have read the Contagious Diseases Acts? — I have. 5599. Do you understand those Acts to pro- vide for the registration of all known common prostitutes, either by voluntary submission or by magistrate's order, and for their jieriodical ex- amination by the medical officers appointed under the Acts ?— Yes. 5600. You understand the object of such ex- amination to be to discover whether each woman is, or is not, venereally diseased, and if she is free from disease she is allowed to depart, and to re- sume lier course of prostitution ; but if she is found to be diseased she is sent into hospital and compulsorily detained there, if necessary, for a period of nine months, until she is cured or dis- charged as incurable ? — Yes. 5601. Do you consider such legislation abso- lutely and wholly immoral?— I do. 5602. And is that the opinion of the great majority of the religious body to which you be- long ? — It is. 5603. That body is the Free Church of Scot- land ? — It is. 5604. Does it comprise about 1,000 congre- gations? — It does. 5605. Is it part of the view entertained by yourself and by the Free Church of Scotland that such legislation practically recognises the fact of prositution by each individual woman ? — It is. 5606. And that it assumes, either by the form Mr. Stansfehi — continued, of voluntary submission, or bj' the magistrate's order, the continuance of such women in pros- titution for some definite period not exceeding 12 months? — It does. 5607. Has your attention been called to In- spector Anniss' evidence as to the Icngtii of time for which the voluntary submission is taken ? — I think not. 5608. Inspector Anniss, as you are j>robably aware, is the inspector under the Contagious Diseases Acts at Devoni)ort ; and in the course of his evidence last year, at Question 4146, I put this question to him : " The form in the Act has a blank for the number of calendar months, and you fill up that number ? " and his answer was, " Yes, to any extent not exceeding 12 months." Then my next question was, " What is your general rule?" to which he made the following reply: "In the case of young girls, where there is a likelihood of their discontinuing the mode of life, I get them signed for one, two, or three months. In the case of a woman who has been in hospital, or is known to be an old prostitute outside the district, I get them signed for 12 months. But I would like to shoiv that in every case, a woman, as I said just now, is told before she leaves the room, if she is Ibund free from disease, that she will he exem})t from that examination if she discontinues her mode of life, prostitution." Do you not gather from those questions and answers which I have just read, that under the voluntary submission tlie woman signs for some specific period of time, varying, it may be, from one to 12 months? — Yes. 5609. During that period it is assumed that she is to continue her life of prostitution ? — I presume so. 5610. Would this be a correct representation of your view, that this recognition ot the life of prostitution in the case of each registered pros- titute, amounts to a practical license during the prescribed time for which she has been ordered to attend (or examination, or for which she has voluntarily submitted to make such attendance? — It certainly does amount to that logically. 5611. You are aware, are you not, that this license ^^f it be fairly regarded as a license) is renewed SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 251 9 May 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, renewed on each dismissal of the woman after she has been examined and found free from disease ? — I believe it is. 5612. You have, I believe, paid some attention to the returns known as Captain Harris's returns? — I have had my attention called to them. 5613. Have you there Captain Harris's return, No. 1, for the year 1880?— I have. 5614. What do you find to be the total num- ber of cases in which the women have been examined during the operation of the Acts up to the end of the year 1880?— 504,607. 5615. In how many cases were the women found free from disease? — In 457,242 cases. 5616. Theref'oi'e, in those cases it follows, from the evidence which you have already given, that they were dismissed to continue, if they chose, their sinful vocation ? — I presume that was the result. 5617. The difference between those numbers is 47,.S65, is it not? — ^Yes. 5618. That is about one-tenth of the whole number ? — Yes. 5619. In those cases the women were found diseased, were they not? — Yes, and admitted into hosj^ital. 5620. Does it not follow from these figures that, in about nine out of ten cases, the examinations were made for the sole and absolutely immoral purpose of ascertaining that the woman was physically fit for the exercise of her calling ? — That is the inference that I deduce from those figures. 5621. Would it not be your opinion, and that of those whom you represent, that this fact makes entirely false all analogies which have been at- tempted to be drawn between an examination conducted in nine cases out of ten for such piur- poses, and the examination of a modest woman really willingly submitting to it, for the sake of ascertaining the nature of her complaint and the method of its cure ? — Entirely false ; there is no analogy between the two cases, 5622. In the latter case, viz., the case of a virtuous woman, the examination if it is con- ducted, is necessary for the purpose of ascertain- ing and treating the precise disorder under which she may be sufi^ering, and is made with an in- dubitable mental consent upon the part of the sufferer at the moment of the examination ? — Of course. 5623. In the case of the prostitute the exami- nation made by Government oflicers is, in nine cases out of ten, to ascertain that she is fit for the pursuit of an immoral calling ? — Yes. 5624. And the evidence of her consenting will, if there had been a voluntary submission at all, is a voluntary submission made at some previous time for a stated period before the expiration of which her will may have ceased to be consenting to the transaction ? — Of course it may. 5625. Would you say, as a man somewhat familiar with law, that that is not consistent with your notion of law ? — I think it is very inconsistent. 5626. Does it appear to you, as a man ac- customed to public affairs, and somewhat to legal matters, that the very legislative idea which has found incorporation in these Acts, of obtaining a written voluntary submission for a certain number of months, which may be 12, even 0.'75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, if the submission was obtained upon a perfect understanding at the time and with a real assent of the will, is an abuse of legislation ? — I think it is. 5627. Is it your opinion that a submission of that kind ought to cease to have efi^ect the mo- ment that the will changes ? — ^I think it ought. 5628. And it is anomalous and inconsistent, in your opinion, from the jurist's point of view, that persons should be bound by a so-called voluntary submission, even after the will may have changed? — I think it most unjust. 5629. You regard the system as being in the main established for the purpose of enabling cer- tain classes of men to gratify their lusts in the belief that they can do so without any evil phy- sical consequence ? — That is the avowed purpose of the Acts, to make the indulgence of kist safe to certain classes of men. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5630. VVhere do you find that avowed purpose expressed in the Acts? — I am quoting almost word for word from the Report of the Eoyal Commission. 5631. Then it is not in the Acts themselves, although you said that it was the avowed purpose of the Acts? — I qualified that by saying "as ex- plained by the Royal Commission." 5632. Can you refer us to the passage in the Report of the Royal Commission ? — I have not it in my memory, but it is very near the begin- ning of the Report. Mr. Stansfeld. 5633. Will you read paragraph 13 of the Re- port of the Royal Commission? — " This recom- mendation, as we have mentioned, was imme- diately adopted by Parliament at the instance of the Government. The Act of 1864 was repealed, its principal provisions being re-enacted in an amended form. A main feature of the new Bill was the introduction of the system of periodical examination. This effected a material change in the law. The Act of 1864 provided, though not completely, for the separation from the commu- nity of women in a condition to spread contagious disease. But the Act of 1866 went farther " (and this is what I was referring to). " It not only recognised prostitutes as agents in the pro- pagation of the disease, but sought so far to con- trol their conduct as to render the practice of prostitution, if not absolutely innocuous, at least much less dangerous. It is perhaps not _ surpris- ing that such legislation should have given rise toserious misapprehensions of the objects and intentions of Parliament." 5634. I do not understand you to be intending to assail the objects and intentions of Parliament, but to be expressing an opinion upon the probable influence and eff'ect of an act of legislation ? — Quite so. Chairman. 5635. Did I correctly understand you to say, in a previous part of your evidence, that this facilitation of prostitution was the avowed pur- pose of the Acts ? — Perhaps I used rather a strong expression, but I had in my mind this quotation, which I have just read to the Com- W2 mitteCj 252 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 9 Mmj 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. \_Coiitinued. Chairman — continued. mittee, that tlic Acts recognised prostitutes, and sought to control their conduct for the purjiose of rendering their vocation less dangerous. There- fore the natural conclusion is that tiiat was the purpose of the Acts. 5()36. Uut, as I understand now, you would hardly wish to ajjply the word " avowed"? — No, I should withdraw that word. Mr. Osborne Mort/nn. 5637. You would prefer, i)erhaps, to use the word "result"? — Yes, that is a more proper word. I do not mean to attribute to Parliament, who passed these Acts, any desire of attaining such a result, because I believe that if Parlia- ment had known wliat the Acts were they would probably not have passed them in such a hurry. Mr. StunsfeUL 5638. You believe that the moral effects of such enactments on the minds of men, and espe- cially upon the minds of youth, would be such as to lead to increased sexual indulgence, and to indulgence at an earlier age? — I think that would be very much the effect of them. 5639. Does a system of this kind, in your view, give a kind of State and legal sanction to the practice of sexual vice if it be conducted under conditions which are supposed to avoid, or prevent, the physical evils Avhich are the con- sequences of that vice ? — It does. 5640. Is it your view that this legislation is demoralising in this way, that instead of endea- vouring cither to suppress or even to cheek or diminisii sexual vice, it facilitates and regulates it, and holds out inducements to its practice ? — Yes. 5641. The inducement being the idea, be it illusory or not, that fornication can be practised with a very much reduced risk of the consequent disease in districts where the Contagious Dis- eases Acts are in force ? — That is the feeling, no doubt. 5642. You are aware that the preamble of the Act of 1864 expressed its object to be to prevent the spread of venereal disease, the words being, " "Whereas it is expedient to make provisions to prevent the spread r)f certain contagious diseases in the places to which these Acts apply "; and then came the Act of 1866, which extended and strengthened the Act of 1864? — Yes; and it ex- plained what the contagious diseases were. 5643. Venereal disease is the result of the sexual contact of two persons of diH'erent sexes; does it appear to you tluit if the object of these Acts be to prevent the spread of venereal dis- ease, it is eitlier logical or practical to apply the measures which the Act applies to one sex only ? — Certainly ; it is most illogical and very un- practicable. 5644. But if the object be simply to facilitate the practice of sexual vice upon the part of men in these districts, and to give them either a real or a fancied security, then you would recognise the logical and practical character of these Acts? — No, I could hardly recognise that ; they are practical in that way, because I do not think that the Acts applied to one party alone can pos- Mr. Stansfcld — continued. sibly prevent disease if it is not applied to the other party. 564."). Therefore, even assuming the object to be simply the protection of men desirous of in- dulging in scnsiuil vice, you would still say that the Acts were, on the face of them, absurd, because the method that they took was impos- ini]iossible of success? — Yes, I would say so. 5646. It is your opinion that a system of this kind must be demoralising to the entire com- munity of both sexes, and especially to the ^ young? — I think there can be no (jucstion of I that. 1 5647. Can you give us any evidence which has come within your own observation, or ex])crience, of the existence of these Acts having ])roduced that ettect upon the minds of young men? — I have heard young men express a wish that they were aj>j)licable all over the country. I have heard that desire expressed in Edinburgh by young men. 5648. Have you heard it frequently cxiiressed ? — Not very frequently, because I avoid, as a general rule, conversing about these Acts with young men ; but I have heard it more than once. 5649. Have you heard it so oil en expressed as to lead you to believe that those cases were not exceptions ? — I think they were not exceptional. 5650. Were those oi)iuions exi)rcsscd by civi- lians ? — Yes. 5651. By the ordinary young men that you would meet in civil society ? — Yes. 5652. And in their opinion they are disposed to approve of the Acts on the theory that they would enable them to consort with |)rostitutc9 without danger of disease, and upon the same ground they very logically advocated their ex- tension to the country at large ? — Tlicy did. 5653. The provision of hospitals expressly and exclusively for the treatment of tliese women, the paying out the cost of the police employed in supervising the administration, and of the doctors and nurses and inspectors, and so on, amounts, does it not, in your view, to an endowment of this particular immoral ])rofession in the sup- posed interests of those men who make use of it? — It really practically amounts to that. 5654. Are those views confirmed in your mind by the fact that in the Contagious Diseases Acts there are no provisions whatsoever tending to a reduction of the number of brothels ? — Yes. 5655. You are aware, are you not, that there is one section, the 36th section of the Act of 1866, under which a brothel-keeper is under certain circumstances subject to a jJenalty ? — There is such a clause. 5656. Under w"hat circumstances is he liable to a penalty under that clause ? — If any person being the owner or occupier of any house, room, or place within the limits of any place to which the Act applies, or being a manager or assistant in the management thereof, induces or suffers any woman affected with a contagious disease to re- sort to or be in his house for the purpose of prostitution, then he is liable to a penalty not exceeding 201., or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months. 5657. Are you aware that there is no other section in any of these Acts of a penal nature affecting SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 253 9 May 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, affecting a brothel keeper ? — I have not been able to find any other. 5658. You are aware, are you not, that these brothels are regularly, and in fact almost daily, visited by the Contagious Diseases Acts, police ? — I take that from the evidence of the police which I have seen ; I do not know personally. 5659. In your opinion can there be any doubt that that daily supervision for the pui-pose of looking after the health of the inmates, and the fact that this section is the only section of a penal character regarding their business must operate to make it in the minds of the brothel keepers, and of all persons associated with them, a busi- ness sanctioned by law and by Government super- vision ? — I think that must be the practical result. That is my inference ; I have not heai-d it from any brothel keeper ; but I have seen it stated in evidence, and I give you what is the result of my own judgment on the matter. 5660. I put it to you in this way, whether you do not consider that legislation and admi- nistration of this character is calculated to pro- duce such an effect upon the mind ? — It is. 5661. Do you not think that it is not only calculated to produce that effect upon the minds of the persons most nearly interested, but that it is also calculated, although possibly in a less degree, to exercise a similar influence upon the minds of the community at large ?— I think it is. 5662. You, therefore, consider these Acts as calculated to operate immorally from an educa- tional point of view, upon the population ; and you tell us that you have had evidence within your own experience of their effect upon the minds of young men ? — Yes. 5662*. You know, do you not, that religious instruction is provided in the hospitals which are instituted imder these Acts for the inmates ? — I know it from published statements. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5663. It is in the Act, is it not? — It is in the Act, and it is also in evidence that has been given. Mr. Stansfeld. 5664. Are you also aware that in all hospitals and institutions of that kind such ministrations and instruction are provided? — Always, I be- lieve ; I know of no exceptions. 5665. Would you not expect their influence to be more felt, and to be iH'oductive of better results in voluntary hosj^itals than in Govern- ment hospitals where the f)atients are compul- sorily detained ? — 1 certainly would. 5666. You are aware, are you not, from Captain Harris's Return, to which you have al- ready referred, that of the total number of 47,365 cases in the Government hospitals no less than 40,959, or 86 per cent., are known to have returned direct from hospital to the j)i'actice of their calling ? — That is in this report. 5667. I would ask you to consider this inci- dent in connection with some other figures of Captain Harris, regarding the ages of prostitutes in Return No. 2. There are one or two ques- tions put by the Judge Advocate General to the Rev. Mr. Gledstone, which I will read to you, beginning with Question 4584 : " \Q.) Per- 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, haps you will take it from me that there was evidence to show that the Acts operated as a deterrent, 23articularly in the case of the younger and less hardened women, and consequently, that they were in the subjected districts deterred from entering upon a life of vice ; assuming that to be so, Avould not that in itself account for the fact stated in Captain Harris's Return, that the prostitutes in the subjected districts are older, as a general rule, than the prostitutes in tlie unsub- jected districts ? — {A.) I should require that assumption to be substantiated by figures ; it is a matter of fact. (Q.) But assuming that there are fewer yoiing girls who enter upon a career of prostitution in the subjected districts, that of itself would, of course, account for the fact that the age of the prostitutes in the subjected dis- tricts was higher than in the unsubjected dis- tricts? — {A.) I should say that it was an assumption with all the assumptions against it. (Q.) But I have not asked you that question ; I have asked you whether, assuming that that was so, it would not of itself account for the fact that the women who practise prostitution in the subjected districts are older than those in the unsubjected districts? — {A.) That would account for it." If Captain Harris's retui-n gave the average of the ages of registered prostitutes in the subjected districts, then a reduction in the number of the very young prostitutes would affect that average aye ? — It would. 5668. You have before you, have you not. Captain Harris's return ? — I have. 5669. And Captain Harris's return gives, does it not, the number of registered prostitutes of from 12 to 13 years of age, and then for every year up to the age of 21, and then there are three periods of five years, 21 and under 26, 26 and under 31, and 31 and over ? — Yes. 5670. Now, a reduction of the numbers of the young prostitutes, say under 15 or 16 years of age, would affect the average age if an average were taken out; but there is no average age taken out in this return, is there ? — There is no average age. 5671. But what we find is this, is it not, that when you come especially to the older periods, you have an increase in the numbers of women of a particular age ? — You have. 5672. A reduction of the number of juvenile prostitutes has no bearing whatever upon the fact of the increase of those of a particular and greater age ? — I do not think it has. 5673. Take the 12th column ; do you not find that in the year 1866 there were only 99 regis- tered prostitutes of the age of 31 and over? — Ninety-nine. 5674. And do you find an almost uninterrupted increase until, in the year 1880, you find that the number of such women is 398 ? — That is the number. 5675. And that increase in the number of that age is contemporary with a decrease in the total number of registered prostitutes, comparing the later with the earlier dates ? — A very large de- crease. 5676. Do not those figures in the 12th column satisfy your mind that, whether by inducement or compulsion, or by both combined, the effect of the Acts has been to keep women to a greater 113 age 254 MINUTES OF EVtnEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 9 May 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. \^Co7itiiiued. Mr. Sffin.ifeld — continued, age in tiie practice of tliat immoral profession ? — ^I think that is the inference. 5677. The only escape from that inference would be this, would it not : proof that women entered the profession at that advanced age ? — Yes. 5G7S. Will you take it from me that no such evidence has been tendered before this Com- mittee? — 1 believe thut no such evidence has been given. 56"9. Have you seen the evidence given by Dr. Cook, the "chaplain of the London Lock Hospital ? — I have. 5680. I refer to the evidence which he gives with reference to the peculiarly hopeless and de- graded character of what he calls the Govern- ment women ; do you agree with his evidence upon that jjoint ?— I agree with it ; I think it is quite natural. 5681. You do not agree with it from any ob- servation of these women in your own experi- ence? — No. 5682. But you would expect that to be the residt of a lengthened stay in the practice of their profession, and you would expect that to be tlie result also of the examinations which they have to so through, and of the system of supervision und"er which they live? — I think it is the natural result of such a system. 5683. Let me" refer you to Question 2762, where I ask Dr. Cook this: (Q.)" You would expect to find a greater chance of reclamation amongst them ; and, so far as I can judge from the figures with which we have been favoured, you find that greater chance ?— (4.) Taking 100 for 100, or 20 for 20, of Government undoubted prostitutes, and ordinary avowed prostitutes (for we have only their own word to take), I should say that the probability and hopes of reclamation would be greater in the ordinary than in the case of the Government women." Are you dis- posed to agree with that evidence ? — I should agree with that. 5684. 1 need not detain you further upon your objection to the Acts, but I will ask you what steps the Free Chui-ch of Scotland has taken to convey its views of this legislation to the Govern- ment, or to Parliament? — They have had a Com- mittee of the General Assembly ever since 1871, I think, and have petitioned against the Acts, both as an assembly and the inferior church courts. I think between 1870 and 1876, there were 400 petitions sent from the Free Church of Scotland, of which 242 were signed officially, that is to say, they were signed in the name of the General Assembly, which represents a body of about 800 ministers and laymen, and represents generally the thousand congregations of the Church, and then, by the subordinate church courts, the synods, the presbyteries, and the kirk sessions ; and there were a number of in- dividual petitions as well. 5685. Have there been any petitions since that time ? — Very few since 1876. 5686. During the time that this inquiry has been proceeding, it has checked the flow of petitions, has it not?— I think it has. 5687. Can you give us some of the resolutions passed in your Assembly? — I have brought those Mr. Stansfehl — continued, for 1879, 1880, and 18HI. If I read one of them it will give an idea o( the whole of them. 5683. Do they difier in view at all from the preceding resolutions? — I think not. 5689. I'hcy may be taken as an ex])rcssi(m of the continuous opinion of your body? — The-e are the deliverances upon the report of the com- mittee, 'i'his resolution of 1881 refers first to the carrying out of the instructions of tlic pre- vious General Assembly to petition Parliament, and then it goes on to say, " That the Assembly receive the ai>ove verbal report ; thank the com- mittee, and especially the cimvener; renew their condemnation of the Contagious Diseases (Women) Acts ; resolve to petition against them, and autliorise the moderator to sign sucli i)etition in their name; re-appoint the connnittee, adding the name of John Gordon Cunnning Skene, Esq., of Parkiiill, Mr. Ferguson (myself ) convener ; renew their recommendation to ministers and sessions to fully inform themselves, and as far as practicable, to inform their jieople regarding these Acts, so that a riglit public opinion may be formed, and all lawful and constitutional steps taken for their speedy and complete repeal; and authorise the committee to appeal to tlie Church for I'unds to carry out these recommendations.'' I put in these three resolutions, which are practically the same. ( The same were handed in.) Mr. Osborne Morgan. 5690. I think you stated that you lived in Aberdeenshire ? — Yes. 5691. I gather from your evidence that you do not know these subjected districts ? — 1 have not visited any of them. 5692. Therefore, of course, we may assume that the evidence which you have given is not founded upon personal observation ? — It is not ; it is purely inferential from the evidence which I have read before the Committee. 5693. I believe that no part of Scotland is under the Acts? — Not yet. 5694. You spoke of a woman, as I understood you, once njjon the register being compelled to remain there for a certain period ; of course, you are aware, as you have read the Acts, that a woman can always escape from the operation of the Acts by ceasing to be a prostitute ; you are aware that provision is made for her relief from examination, if she can satisfy a magistrate that she has ceased to carry on the trade of a prosti- tute ? — Yes, there is such a provision, but it is a very impracticable one. 5695. The 33rd, 34th, and 35th sections of the Act of 1866 contain a provision to that effect. 1 am not speaking now as to the difficulties of doing so, or as to the course which would have to be pursued ; but the Acts do point out a road by which, if she chooses, she can escape from their operation, do they not ? — They seem to do so. 5696. I understood you to say that it was the avowed purpose of the Acts to make vice safe ; you desire to qualify that now ? — Yes, to the extent that I do not think Parliament meant that in the sense that is usually attached to the word " avowed." 5697. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT. 255 9 May 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. f Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 5697. You are aware, in fact I think it is common ground to everybody, that the professed purpose of the Acts was a sanitary purpose, whatever may be their actual results? — Yes, it professes to be sanitary. 5698. Your attention was called to the 36th section of the Act of 1866, which subjects to a penalty any brothel keeper who, having reason- able cause to believe that a woman is suffering from contagious disease, induces or allows her to remain in his house for purposes of prostitution ; you are aware of that ? — Yes. 5699. And that, of course, would be quite in keeping with what I have said was the professed purpose of the Act, viz, : a sanitary purpose ? — It would. 5700. Are you aware that the Contagious Diseases A cts were never intended to supersede the powers of other Acts of Parliament with reference to prostitution and brothels / — There is a provision in that section to that effect ; but practically the other effect is what occurs. 5701. You will see that the 36th section con- tains a pi'oviso that a conviction under this enact- ment (that is for harbouring a diseased prostitute) " shall not exempt the offender from any penal or other consequences to which he may be liable for keepmg, or being concerned in keeping, a disorderly house," and so forth ; so that it appears as if the Act intended to steer clear of all ques- tion of any legal liability of prostitutes or brothel keepers upon other than sanitary grounds ? — Yes ; but the practical outcome of that is just the reverse of that, because the police make use of this clause, and the brothel keepers immediately deduce the inference that they -snll not be troubled otherwise if they a,ttend to this. 5702. You are aware of course that stringent laws have been passed, particularly in Scotland, as we have heard, against brothel keepers and others who are, so to speak, con- cerned in the practice of prostitution? — Yes, and whenever tliey have been put in practice they have been very efficient in abating the evil. 5703. You collect from what I have said, that these Contagious DiseHses Acts in no way inter- fere with the operation of those enactments ?— I say that they should not interfere, but I think that, practically, they do interfere. 5704. You could not state that from your own experience ? — No, because I am not in any of those protected districts, but I have seen a great deal of evidence of it. 5705. "Would you infer, and if so upon what grounds, that the Contagious Diseases Acts hamper, or in any way interfere, with the general operation of the other enactments upon these sub- ject of prostitution ? — As I said just now, they should not do it. I believe the intention was that they should not do it. 5706. I suppose you could hardly, without any actual experience of the subject, state that they do? — Only in the way that I have already mentioned, that I have read evidence that they do. Of course, personally, I have no ex- perience. 5707. The Eight honourable Gentleman put to you the case of a virtuous woman coming to 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, be examined by a surgeon voluntarily, and he said, and of course we all agree that that was a very different case from the case of a prostitute coming to be examined under the Acts ; now,' let me put this case to you : do you know Dublin ? — I have been in Dublin, but I do not know it. 5708. Probably you will take it from me, as the result of the evidence, that in Dublin there is a voluntary Lock hospital supported by the State ? — Certainly. 5709. Take the case of the Dublin Lock hospital : supposing that the woman A. B. is a prostitute, she comes to that hospital and tells the surgeon there, or the surgeon knows from other sources, that she, being a prostitute suffer- ing from a contagious disease, comes there for the purpose of being cured in order that she may carry on with her trade of prostitution. The objections which you have raised against the Acts would apply even to such State support to a hospital as that, would they not ? — I think the two cases are totally different. In the one case the will is voluntarily exercised ; in the other case it has no existence at all. 5710. That is true as to the constitutional aspect of the question, but hardly as regards the moral aspect of the question. I will put the case again : A. B., a prostitute, who is avowedly carrying on the trade of prostitution, comes to a State supported Lock hospital, and says to the surgeon ; " I am suffering from venereal disease ; I want to be cured in order that I may go back to the streets ;" the surgeon, who is paid by the State, is obliged to cure her ; would not the moral objections, which you have very forcibly put, to these Acts apply to such an institution as that ? — I think the moral objections would apply equally strongly, if it is simply a hospital for the cure of prostitutes to enable them to go back to their profession ; but, as I understand most Lock hospitals, it is rather to escape from their profession that they apply to them. At least I know that in Glasgow and other places the Lock hospital is a means of redeeming them, and saving them, not of making them fit for their work. 571 1. But I am putting a case which of course a Lock hospital surgeon would not be at liberty to refuse ? — Quite so, but take the infirmary in Edinburgh; there are, I suppose, hundreds of cases of venereal disease there, and that is sup- ported entirely by voluntary subscription. 5712. I am not speaking of an hospital sup- ported by voluntary contributions, which would come under an entirely different category, but of a State-supported hospital ; and I gave you the case of the Lock hospital in Dublin, which is supported entirely by State aid? — I have no objection whatever to State aid being given to Lock hospitals ; what I object to is, a certain class of women being compelled to remain in their life of prostitution, and having that life of prosti- tution made safe. 5713. Still I understood you to say that the case I put is one that might at any time arise indepen- dently of the Acts, viz., that of a prostitute com- ing to this Westmoreland Lock hospital and say- ing, "I am diseased; I want to be cured, in order 114 thiit 2JG MIXL'TKS iff EVIUEiS'CE TAKEN llEKOliE TUK 9 Mai/ 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. \_Conliiiued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, tliat I may go back to tlie streets," and the sur- geon, of" course, being obliged to cure her ; tlie moral objections you have raised would ai)ply to such a state of things as tliat? — Yes; but 1 would not have the same moral objection it" that Lock hospital sujjported by the State had also a provision for saving the women from going back to their life of prostitution. Of course, in the case of a voluntary hospital, that you could not do, except by moral and Christian influences. I wish 10 distinguish between the idea that a number of people have got, that we wlio object to these Contagious Diseases Acts, desire nothing to be done for the reclamation of the women ; we are the strongest supporters of every sciienie of that kind. It is the comi)ulsory element that we object to. 5714. No fair-minded person would suggest anything of the kind? — It has not been sug- gested here, but it has been suggested over and over again very strongly. It is one of the points that we have to contend very much against, as if we had no sympathy. 5715. I give you entire credit for it, so far as I am concerned ; you are aware, of course, that there is provision required to be made in these Lock hospitals provided under the Acts, for the religious and moral reclamation of tl.e inmates':' — I am aware of tliat ; but will you allow me to add, that I do not think it can be very effective in connection with the purpose for which the women are there. 57 IG. Why not? — Because what can be the influence of Christian teaching on a woman whom you are curing for the purpose of her continuing a sinful and unchristian life. 5717. But you assume that you are curing her for the purpose of her continuing a sinful and imchristian life? — I assume that. 5718. The supporters of the Acts would hardly ao-ree with you there : have you ever been in one of these hospitals ? — No, I have not. 5719. You have never been present at the religious ministrations, or talked to the chaplain ? — I have heai'd of what has been claimed for them. 5720. But as to that again, you are unable to speak from personal experience? — Yes; I, at the beginning of my examination, said tiiat I had no personal experience of the Acts, and that there- fore I was only giving the judgment of an out- sider iipon them. 5721. Both upon moral and practical grounds; I think you said that you would consider it right that if women were examined, men should be examined also? — What I think 1 said, or what I mean to say was, that I do not think there would be any practical result in putting down disease in women, so long as men are allowed to go aboiit disseminating disease. 5722. Y^ou are probably aware that that point was strongly urged before the Royal Commission, and. that they advert to it in their report. I will read what they say on the subject : " Many witnesses have urged that as well on grounds of justice as expediency" (those are your own words I think). " Soldiers and sailors should be sub- jected to regular examinations." (In speaking of soldiers and sailors, they would refer to those whom it would be most necessary to examine.) " We may at once disjiose of this recommenda- ilr. Osborne Morgan — continued, tion, so far as it is founded on the princijilc of putting both parties to the sin of f"ornication on the same f"ooting by the obvious, but not less conclusive reply, that there is no comparison to be made between prostitutes and tlie men who consort with them. With the one sex, the offence is committed as a matter of gain, with the other, it is an irregular indulgence of a natural im])uL5e." I gather that that was the oj)inion of the whole of the Connnission ? — I fancy so; I believe that at one time men were examined as well as women, and they had to give it up. 572;i. But you would not agree with that con- clusion of the Connnission 'i — Certainly not ; I hold that the sin is as bad in the one as in the other. I dissent from the grounds upon which they give that opinion, that the sin is less in the one tlian in the other. 5724. And you do not think that the fact that the women cany it on as a proibssion, whereas the men do not, ought to make and would make the examination of the former more expedient or just ? — I could not admit that. 5725. In fact, you do not recognise in any wav the force of tliat paragraph which I read to you '. — No. Dr. Farquharson. 5726. I suppose you would not consider it de- sirable to maintain venereal disease as a necessary punishment for vice and sin? — Certainly not. I believe it has a deterrent power, but I certainly would not retain it. 5727. Then would you think it desirable for the State to make any efforts to put down prosti- tution by legal means? — I think so. I think it would be very desirable for the State to provide the Lock hospitals we have been speaking about, and these religious opportunities that are already provided in the Government local hospitals with- out the other accompaniments of compulsory at- tendance and facilities given to return to a life of sin. 5728. But not to put it down by making pros- titution an oflence? — I would not object to that. 5729. Do you think it would be jiracticable ? — I do not think it would be practicable. 5730. Do you not think that even if it were done, great social evils might result from the want of an outlet for a man's evil passions? — I do not think so. You are pointing now, J fancy, to the doctrine that some people hold that ]irostitution must exist ; but I cannot accept that doctrine. 57.31. Not in the abstract certainly; but do you not think that, as human nature is consti- tuted now, we must look prostitution in the face as almost a necessary evil? — I do not think so. We have been speaking of the army and the navy ; I hold that a less expenditure probably than is in- curred now upon these Acts would enable most of the soldiers to marry young, and you would have better men, and you would have better cha- racters in every way. 5732. I am afraid that the expense of enabling soldiers to many universally would be very great, would it not?— I do not know that it would be greater. I have read in these statistics that about one-third of the British army is in hospital all the year round. The expense of that would go a veiy long SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 2,57 9 May 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. [^Conthined. Dr. Farquharson — continued, long way towards covering the cost of providing marriage facilities for the soldiers. 5733. But I do not think that so large a num- ber as that are in hospital at one time for venereal disease ? — I know 1 read in some of the returns some years ago something of that sort, that that was about the average. 5734. Of course we should have to increase the pay of soldiers largely if we permitted them to marry ? — Yes ; it is too small as it is. 5735. Then you would have to increase the barrack accommodation very largely ? — -Yes. 5736. In time of service and active warfare would not great inconveniences be produced from these unfortunate women being left behind in a state of destitution? — I think that all these ex- penses and difficulties should be faced in view of the great moral and social benefit that would accrue to this country. The moral state of the army is a great danger to this country at all times. 5737. Would you apply the same argument to the civil population, and recommend compulsory matrimony amongst the civil population ? — I think that in our country places, where men marry early, there is less of that evil, ^^'e have other evils of course, which do not quite come under the same category ; but I believe the fact is, that in country places where men marry early, you have very little of this vice as compared with what there is in large towns. 5738. But where men marry early do you not have a great deal of what is worse vice, viz., seductions and illegitimate births? — There is a great deal of that, unfortunately, in our part of the country, I think largely arising from its being used as a kind of trap by the young women to get settled early and get husbands. 5739. Y''ou do not think it has anything to do with the absence of what I may call the outlet for men's passions which is supplied by prostitu- tion ? — No, I do not think so. I think it is very unfair to compare country districts in point of illegitimacy with large towns, because you may say, taking it merely as a fact, that in the country districts every single case becomes known, whereas, of course, in towns you have vices with- out that particular element of illegitimacy. It is just the same question as it is in Paris, where, I remember. Professor Miiller, the eminent sur- geon, in one of the assemblies, calling attention to that. A clergyman had drawn a very strong- parallel between what he chose to call Romanistic France and Protestant England on this very footing of illegitimacy, showing that there was a great deal more illegitimacy in Protestant Eng- land than there was in Catholic France ; but Professor Miiller replied, that all surgeons and professional men knew that vice was so very common in Paris and the other large towns that there was no outcome from it. 5740. Y"ou grant that venereal disease is not a necessary punishment for sin, and that we cannot attempt to check prostitution actually by law ? — I have not admitted those two things ; I said that I would not argue that venereal disease ought to be maintained as a jiunishment for sin. As you put it now you make it appear as though I said that I did not consider that venereal disease was a punishment for sin ; I think it is a 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued, punishment for sin ; but would not maintain it on that ground. Then, as regards the other part of your question, that I admitted that prostitution could not be put down by law ; I did not admit that. I think it could be put down by law, and I say that it is put down by law in Edinburgh, and Glasgow, and other towns, in which these Police Acts are put in force. 5741. The great drawback, of course, of vene- real disease, as a punishment for sin, is the great inequality of its incidence ; is it not right that the punishment should be made proportionate to the gravity of the offence ? — There is a principle involved in that question which I have not con- sidered. I do not know that there is any in- equality in the incidence. 5742. A vicious person frequently, from supe- rior knowledge and from great care, escapes altogether the consequences of vice in the form of venereal disease ; whereas an unfortunate young fellow, who goes with a woman once, may contract a disease which may embitter the whole of the rest of his existence ; in your view, is it fair that they should both be equally punished ? — I am afraid that that is a matter hardly within the scope of our power to either judge or control. 5743. Is it not right that we should try and mitigate the consequences of what is an unequal punishment ? — I have said, as strongly as I can, that I think every step ought to be taken to mitigate it, but not in the direction in which these Acts do it, which is not only to mitigate the evil and the danger, but also to go on and perpetuate the provision for satisfying the desire. 5744. But the primary object of the Acts, as I understand, is to mitigate the disease ? — To control and mitigate it. 5745. Could you suggest any more efficient machinery to mitigate the disease than these Acts ? — It is not for me to suggest my machinery off-hand. I think it could be done, but it would be taking too much upon myself to attempt at the moment to suggest legislation. 5746. Do you think that the fact of women only being examined necessarily renders the sanitary success of the Acts inefficient ? — I think so. I think it makes it very illusory. For in- stance, a surgeon in Edinburgh the other night gave this illustration. He said : " It is con- stantly within our knowledge that a woman, in whom you could detect no visible disease might, in the course of a single night, contaminate half- a-dozen men, because the first man that she might have connection with was diseased ; then of course she communicates the disease to every other man that she has connection with that night; and yet, at the end of the whole time you, as a surgeon, must know that you could not discover it." 5747. As a surgeon, I also know that this theory of mediate contagion is very much dis- puted by the medical profession ? — I cannot go into that ; but this is what Dr. Miller says, one of the surgeons of the Edinburgh Infirmary, in the wards in which these diseases are treated, and a man of great experience. 5748. Is he the surgeon at the Lock hospital? —I think he is ; he is also surgeon in the K li venereal .Ml.Niri:s OF KVlDKMi: i.VKKN r.KIOJiK TllK i) May 18»2.] Mr. Ferguson. Continued. Dr. FnnjtiharsoH — continued, venereal wards of the Royal Infii-niary, which arc very extensive. 5749. At all events, you will admit that the woman is the principal factor in the spread of the disease, and tliat iier influence is greater than that of the man in spreading disease ? — Probably, that is so, but that is not a question upon which 1 could express an opinion. 5750. We have had evidence that one woman will liavc connection in a single night with 20 or .■^0 men .' — ( )f course, if she is badly diseased, she must contaminate those men. 5751. Therefore, the fact of shutting that woman uj) in hospital Avould, at all events, check her opportunities of spreading disease? — That would be so. 5752. And, so far as that goes, a certain check is put upon the sj)read of venereal disease ? — Yes, a limited check, if it is a check in the end. 575o. Then wiiat you would say would be that the practice of this one-sided examination only renders the check less efficient : — Yes ; it would never stamp out the disease. 5754. I think you indicated that you thought an increased indulgence in sexual vice at an early age was the result of the Acts ; do you think that many young men in towns not under the Acts, or even in towns under the Acts, are likely to have heard of the Acts, or to know muoh about them ? — Yes : they know very well about them everywhere. Some time ago it was a common topic of conversation amongst young men in Edinburgh. 5755. We have had it in evidence that public meetings against the Acts have been the means of spreading knowledge amongst young men on the subject ? — Naturally they would be. 5756. In what rank of life were those specific young men of whom you speak? — They were young gentlemen. 5757. Were they waiting to begin their evil courses until Etlinburgh was put under the Acts, or had they already done so ?— I do not know what their private character was before. 5758. Tlierefore, in that case, they were not driven into vice by hearing of the Acts ? — The Acts are not a|)plied to Edinburgh yet. 5759. But they had not been driven into vice by hearing of the Acts in other places ; they had already, I presume, began to practice vice? — I cannot say that. 5760. You cannot say that, in this specific case, the influences of the Acts elsewhere had induced these young men to go into vice ? — I cannot say that at all. 5761. We liave had some evideuce about the difl'erence between the women on the voluntary and on the compulsory sides of Lock hospitals, and we have been told that the women are much more degraded on what is called the Govern- ment or compulsory side ; but do you find any special sujieriority in the appearance of the women at Edinburgh or Glasgow, or London, where they are not under the Acts? — I have not, personally, had any opportunity of comparing their general api)earance or demeanour with those of women in towns which are under the Acts. 5762. Tlien we ai-e told that there is a very Dr. Furquhnrson — continued, great difference in tlie reclamations between tlie women on the voluntary side and the women on the Government side in the Lock hospitals ; but is not this comparison vitiated a little by the fact that these women are very often of totally difl'crent classes, and that on the one side you ha\e only the professional prostitutes, while on the other side you have a mixture of women ; you have some married women, some young women living with their parents, and some young people just going into vi(!e : would not that great difference of class render the comparison a little illusory as far as regards reclamation ? — I do not think that there is such a difference of class aa you .suggest, because many of these ))rostitute8 are tiic children of respectable parents, and have been well brought up; they have been seduced, and then have fallen lower and lower. Of course there must be discrimination in judging of these things. 5763. I think you gave us some opinions about the patients in volunt;iry and Government Lock hospitals; the primary object of the introduction of ]>atients into both of those hos])itals is the cure of disease, is it not? — Y'es. 5764. The reclamation, I presume, is merely secondary to that ? — I think in the case of Lock hospitals supported by private contributions, they go together. The object of Lock hospitals suj)- ported by private contributions, at all events, is as much reclamation as cure. 5765. But a woman is not asked before she is taken to be cured, whether she wishes to be reclaimed ?— No, I suppose not. 5766. Therefore, the primary object is the treatment of disease, and the secondary object is the reclamation of the women ? — Yes. 5767. I think we may claim as much as that for the Government hospitals, that women are taken in for the cure of disease, and every effort is made and every facility is given for their re- clamation, if desired? — That is just the point that I doubt. 5768. I think you say that the women are turned out of the Government Lock hospitals to go back to ply their trade ; but the authorities of the Government Lock hospital have no idea what those women are goiug to do ; whenever a woman is freed from treatment in a Govern- ment Lock hospital, she is freed from further inspection, she is a free woman, and for any- thing that the authoi-ities know, she may give up her trade ; she is not sent out for the purpose of continuing it, but only sent out as she would be from any other hospital to do as she pleases ? — AYe have it in svidence that they do go back, according to the reports of your own inspectors, in nine cases out of 10. 5769. But it is not absolutely necessary; they need not go back unless they like '. — The footing upon wliich they come in leads to that result. Mr. Cdvendish Hentinck. 5770. I understood you to say that the re- liiiious body of which you are a member takes great interest in this question ? — Yes, a great many of its members do. 5771. Did I correctly understand you to say that there was a committee appointed specially to SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 259 9 May 1882.] Mr. Fekguson. l_Cotitinued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, to inquire into and consider the matter? — Yes, there is a standing committee of the General i\ssembly of the Free Church, which look into the matter. 5772. Which has to deal with this particular subject ? — -Yes, that has. 5773. And jou are a member of that com- mittee ? — I am. 5774. Have you read all the evidence which has been given in favour of the maintenance of the Acts ?— I have not read it all. 5775. "What portions of that evidence have you read ? — I have read very little of what has been before this Committee : it is not very easily got at. 5776. Then you have not taken any very great pains to acquaint youself with the case which has been made out? — I have seen the re- sults of it in various papers. 5777. In what papers? — In papers that deal with the subject. 5778. Can you give me the name of any such papers ? — The " Shield," and various papers. 5779. You are aware, I suppose, that the " Shield " is a paper published in the interests of those who desire to repeal the Acts ? —Yes. 5780. And, therefore, it is naturally a partial witness ? — Yes, I suppose you may say so, because the witnesses who come in favour of the Acts are partial witnesses too in the same sense as the others. I only put one against the other. 5781. I entirely concur in your remark. Those who give evidence in favour of the Acts have a bias one way, just as those who give evidence against the Acts have a bias the other way; is not that so? — I suppose sd. 5782. At all events, you have not taken any special pains to acquaint yourself with the par- ticulars of the evidence which has been given in favour of the Acts before this Committee ? — No, I have not had an opportunity of doing so. 5783. Are you aware that when these Acts were originally passed, they were supported by many Members of Parliament from considerations of humanity towards suifering women ? — I am not aware of that. 5784. But I suppose you would believe that Members of Parliament might be actuated by sucli considerations ? — I think very few Members of Parliament knew very well what the Acts were when they were passed. 5785. Upon what grounds do you make that statement? — Because there was no public dis- cussion upon them in Parliament, and they were passed at a late hour of the night when very few people were present. 5786. If you will refer to the circumstances under which the Acts of Parliament were passed, will you not find that not only was there an open discussion in the House of Commons, but also that there was a reference in each case to a Select Committee ? — I am not familiar with the history of the thing just now ; I cannot re- member it ; it is so long ago ; but the general impression is, as I have stated it ; and I have the authority of Mr. McLaren, the late Member for Edinburgh, for that statement. 0.75. Mr. Cavandish B'utinck — continued. 5787. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that those were the facts of the case? — I know from the reports in the public papers that they were passed at a late iiour of the night, when there were very few Members present ; and Mr. McLaren declared the other day in Edinburgh, that he did not think even the Cabinet itself knew what the tenour of the Acts was. 5788. Are you aware that the Right honour- able Gentleman, the Member for Halifax, was a member of the Government when the Acts of 1864 and 1869 were passed? — No, ] am not aware. 5789. When a witness makes statements of the kind which you have just given, it is necessary to call attention to the evidence ; referring to Question 7927, addressed by me last year to Mr. Shaen, are you aware that when the Bill came back to be considered, as amended, there was a division, and 76 Members voted on one side and five on the other ? — That is 81 altogether. That is a small House. 5790. Are you aware of the fact ? — I was not aware of the figure, but it bears out what I said. 5791. I then asked Mr. Shaen, in Question 7929, "In 1869 the subject was discussed again, and then it was again referred to a Select Com- mittee, and then my Kight honourable friend the Member for Halifax was, I think. Secretary of the Treasury and a member of the Government, who introduced the Bill ;" are you aware of that fact ? — I am not. 5792. Are you aware, from the evidence which has been given generally, that the condition of the prostitutes at the time when the Acts were passed was exceedingly bad ? — I think it is very likely, but I do not know. 5793. You have not read the evidence to that effect? — I read it at the time, but I do not re- member. I am quite prepared to take it from you that it was so, but I cannot speak from per- sonal knowledge. 5794. Are you aware that evidence has been given that their condition is very much improved at the present time ? — I know it has been stated, but I do not attribute that to the Acts. 5795. I suppose you will not hesitate to admit that a large amount of relief has been afforded to suffering women through the medium of these Acts ? — I do not think that there has been a very large amount; however, I do not know, and I would not like to answer that question. 1 do not admit it, but I do not like to deny it. 5796. Is it not the fact that a large number of women have been taken to hospital, and have been cured of a very terrible disease, who other- wise would not have been so cured ? — I do not know that there are a very large number. I know that a number have been driven away from the districts. 5797. Are you aware that the amount of voluntary Lock hospital accommodation in the three kingdoms is very insuflScient to meet the wants of the case ? — Probably it is. Then in- crease it. 5798. Have you any means of knowing the number of beds that there are in the voluntary Lock hospitals ? — No, I never went into that question. K k2 5799. It 2C0 MlNl'TES OF EVIDKNCE TA KN BEFORE THE 9 Mai/ 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Beniinck — continued. 5799. It was stated before tlie last Committee (and I believe the statement was approximately correct ) tliat in the whole of the United Kingdom there are but about 4o0 beds I'or women suffering from venereal disease? — I should be vctv much surprised to find it so. 5800. If that be so, or if the number bo only approximately correct, is it not a fact that the amount of voluntary Lock hosjutal accommoda- tion is dejilorably insufficient? — Certainly it is, if that is the case. Then I say increase it. 5801. Are you aware that in the Government Lock hosjiitals at the present moment there arc at least 50 per cent., or more, of the patients suffering from venereal disease attended to at the Government cost ? — I do not know. 5802. You are not aware that at this moment the number of beds which are found in Govern- ment Lock hospitals is G70, in round numbers? — I am not aware of the fact. 5803. Supposing that the Acts were repealed to-mon-ow, those 670 patients would have to be turned out of the hospital, would they not ? — I would not do that. 5804. Then what course would you advise to be taken in such a case ? — I approve, either by voluntary subscri]>tion or by the Government giving subsidies, of providing a sufficient amount of hospital accommodation, apart altogether from the compulsory provisions of these Acts. 5805. You have to deal with an Act of Par- liament which established these Lock hospitals : do I rightly understand that you would repeal those Acts absolutely, or that you would amend them ? — I would repeal those Acts absolutely ; but, at the same time, I would desire to see the Government continue the provision of those hos- pitals, on the same footing as other general infirmaries and general hospitals all over the country. 5806. You have got 670 women now in beds at the Government Lock hospitals ; if you re- pealed the Acts absolutely those women would have to be turned out of their beds into the streets : I want to know whether you have any, short of the repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts, such alternative to offer to this Committee as would prevent what I should consider a gross act of inhumanity ? — I would do as 1 say, main- tain these hospitals simply as curative establish- ments, not connected with these compulsory Acts at all. 5807. Then you would amend the Acts, and not repeal them? — There would be such an amendment as would entirely take them away. 5808. But if you are going to keep these women until they are cured and are not going to turn them out, you must take some steps by amending the Act to retain those women in the hospitals, must you not? — The Act repealing these Acts might contain a provision for main- taining those hospitals. 5809. Then that would be amending the Acts? — As I say, amending them in such a way as constitutes a practical repeal of them. 5810. Then do I understand this to be your view : that the Government should still keep up the hospitals for the reception of women of this class, but that there should be no compulsion at ail ? — Yes, that would be my view. Mr. Cavendish Benfincl; — continued. 5811. I understand, therefore, that your view is that you would have the Acts so amended that there should be Government hosjjitals upon the voluntary system ? — Yes, certainly ; but I would prefer the two being entirely separate. I would prefer those Acts being entirely repealed and blotted out, .and an Act i>assed to make jirovi- sion out of the pu])lic funds li)r the maintenance of sufficient accommodation for that class of disease. Of course, it is a matter of laTiguage whether you talk of amending the Acts, or whether you do as I say ; but. for the sake of makintr it perfectly clear, I would prefer to have these Acts entirely swept out of the Statute Book, and a new provision made altogether on new and higher lines. 5812. Supjjosing that, technically, it could be done? — Su])posing that, technically, it could be done. 581.3. But still you would desire that the Government should maintain, at the public ex- ])ense, hospitals lor the reception, treatment, and cure of diseased women, jirovided that their attendance, and so forth, was entirel}' voluntary? — I think so ; I think 1 would go that length. 5814. Are you at all acquainted with the voluntary Lock hospitals of Scotland .' — Xot per- sonally. 5815. Do you subscribe to any yourself, per- sonally ? — I have done so; I do not do so at the present moment, except to the Royal Infirmary at Edinburgh. I subscribe to that, and that has venereal wards. 5816. I need not trouble you about Glasgow, because we have had evidence as to Glasgow ; but could you give the Committee any details of the Lock hospital wards, or of the treatment in the Royal Infirmary at Edinburgh? — No, I could not give any personal iniormation ; but there are separate wards set apart for the treatment of venereal disease. 5817. You know, of your own knowledge, that there ai-e separate wards set apart for venereal patients? — Yes, there are. 5818. Do you know the number of beds? — No, I cannot say how many beds there are. 5819. You cannot give the Committee any details on the subject? — No. 5820. Have any inquiries been made into prostitution and its conditions and results by the Committee of the Free Church to which you belong ? — Not very minutely. 5821. Are you of opiuioii that stronger laws should be enacted against the practice of prosti- tution ? — In Scotland we have Police Acts which are veiy efficient in preventing, at any rate, open prostitution. For instance, in Edinburgh such a thing is almost unknown as soliciting in the streets ; it used to be very different when I was young. And I believe that the same may be said with regard to Gla.«gow, but I am not quite sure; and also with regard to Aberdeen. 5822. Are there a large number of prostitutes in Edinburgh ? — Yes, I have no doubt that there are : but they have been very much diminished of late, and the houses of ill- tame have been very much diminished of late by the operation of the new Police Act. 5823. Is it your belief that there are fewer women practising prostitution now In Edinburgh than SELECT COMJIJTTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 261 9 May 1882.] Mr. Ferguson. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued. than there were five years ago ? — I believe so. I knew that the operation of these Police Acts has brought a great many more of these poor creatures into the refuges and homes for reforma- tion. 5824. Upon what grounds do you form that opinion as to the diminution of the number of prostitutes in Edinburgh and Glasgow? — Very much on that ground : that so many of these poor creatures have now been seeking entrance into these homes, and refuges, and reformatories. In fact.it is difficult to supply the accommodation in these homes now. 5825. Do you know at all what number of women are received into homes in Edinburgh and Glasgow ? — A very considerable number in Edinburgh ; I have not the figures. 5826. And those women all belong to the pros- titute class ? — A great many of them do. 5827. Do I correctly understand that you would not increase the stringency of the laws against prostitution ? — I think I would increase their stringency. The Police Acts are very strict already, and, by carefully putting them in force, prostitution can be decreased. 5828. What steps do you recommend to be taken for the purpose of increasing their strin- gency ? — I am not prepared to submit steps. 5829. You are not prepared to suggest any methods by which the law might be made stronger? — No 5830. Then, with regard to the examination of men, I understood you to say that it was neither logical, nor practical, to apply this law or any similar law to one sex only ? — Unfortunately it is practicable, because it is done ; but it is very illogical. If the object of the examination is to destroy the disease it is a most illogical thing to •only attempt to destroy it in one-half of the per- sons who are promoting it, and to leave it alone in the other half. 5831. 1 am afraid that what is logical will al- ways be a matter of opinion. But, with regard to the practical part of the matter, how do you propose to put any law in force against men ? — It is not for me to say how that is to be done. 5832. As a practical man you cannot suggest any means by which it could be done? — You could do it by the same force that you apply in the case of women. 5833. But in the case of the woman you know who the woman is ; she is practising a profes- sion ; she is a prositute, she is taken into the hospital, and there she is. How are you going to examine the men ? — I am not prepared to say how you would do it. I do not see that it is impossible to do it. 5834. Would you show me any way in which it is possible to do it? — It is not for me to do it ; it is for the people who make the laws. 5835. If you make a practical suggestion, it is, I apprehend, incumbent upon you to show some means of carrying it out. Can you suggest no means by which, an examination of men, such a» you desii'e to see, would be carried out? — I would rather put it in this way : that I would rather not have the examination of either sex. 5836. But you say that the men ought to be put upon the same footing as the women ? — I 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued. say that unless you ti-eat both the factors of the vice you cannot exjDect to stamp it out. 5837. But will you show me how you can treat them both ? — -It is not my business to show you, and I am not prepared to do so. 5838. You are obliged to abandon any idea of suggesting to the Committee how the men could be examined ? — I think I said, in answer to Dr. Farquharson, that it would not be practicable to carry it out. Men would not submit to it ; you would have a revolution if you attempted it. 5839. Having regard to the fact that pre- cautions of a limited character are now applied to some regiments in the service, would you desire to see those precautions extended to the whole of the army ? — It would be more just to d» so than to have it only in the one-sided way that it is done now ; but, as I have already stated, I do not approve of the examination of either sex. 5840. But given the examination of one sex, then I understand j'ou to say that you want to have an examination of the other? — I think that justice would require the other to be examined also. 5841. The examination of the male sex fol- lowing the e.Kamination of the women, can you point out any way in which that examination could be made effectual ? — No, it is not for me to do so at all. 5842. Would you extend it to civilians, too? — I object to the whole thing. 5843. But if the examination is applied to the military', would you also desire to see it ex- tended to civilians ? — No, I would not. I do not want to see it carried out in the case of the military, either. ]\Ir. Hopwood. 5844. You were asked as to whether these Acts applied to any part of Scotland, and I understood you to say that they do not ; perhaps it was a matter of prudence not to apply them to Scotland? — I think so. There was a jjroposal to apply them to the district of Maryhill, near Glasgow, about which Dr. Calderwood gave evidence the other day: but there was such an outcry about it that it was given up. 5845. Those who prompted these Acts were careful to get them enacted where they were least likely to excite commotion ? — Yes. 5846. It was assumed, in some question put to you, that a woman can always, and with ease, escape from off the register ; do you conceive that that is so from your perusal of these Acts ? — I think I rejjlied that, although the Acts had pro- vision for that, it was extremely difficult for a woman to take advantage of it, and, practically, I think it is almost imjaossible for her to take advantage of it. 5847. She has, in fact, convinced her judges, either the surgeon or the magistrate on appeal,, that siie has formed an intention for the future ? — Yes. 5848. Do you conceive that that is what a woman should not be subjected to ? — I think she should not be subjected to it. I do not think it is possible for her to do it ; I do not see what evidence could be given. 5849. Do you think that by these Acts the K K 3 entrance •Jfi2 MIMTl-.S lib K.XIDKNCE TAKKN BKKOItK THK 9 May 1882.] Mr. Fbbgusun. [ CdiitiiiUL'd. Mr. Hopwood — continued, entrance into jirostitution or on to the register is made as easy, and the exit from it as difficult as possible f — It is. 58.)(). The latter depending on inquiry being previously made, and consent given by a police officer ? — Yes. 5851. It was pointed out to you in one question that these Acts were not to supersede other Acts in regard to brothels, and so on, existing already in the Statute Book ; but is not the effect of them to make those Acts of less practical effect? — The effect of them is so. 5852. Supposing that there be Acta which say that brothels are unlawful, is it your judgment that these Acts, in fact, recognise them as lawful? — They seem to do so, practically. 5853. They seem to give a legality to them ? —Yes. 5854. You were asked about the Dublin Lock Hospital, and whether, inasmuch as that happened to be endowed or subsidised by the State, there was any difference between that and these hospitals which are subsidised by the State under the Acts ; and it was put to you whether you saw any difference between a woman pn senting her- self at the Dublin Lock Hospital, and auother woman being sent to an hospital under these Acts ; do you see a great difference ? — I see a very great difference; 1 tried to state, as forcible as I could, that the cases were not analogous. 5855. In the case of a woman going to the Dublin Lock Hospital, it is not necessary that she should say even that she is a prostitute? — It is not, I should think. 5856. A respectable woman who was diseased by the^uisconduct of others might there get relief or cured, might she not ? — Yes. 5857. Perhaps you are aware that under these Acts no respectable women, none but a prostitute, can be received into the Government Lock Hospitals? — I presume so; they would be all received as prostitutes. 5858. You were pressed with the relative cul- pability of the two sexes, and you were asked whether, in the case of the women, it is not a matter of gain, as the Commissioner's phrase is ; do you adopt that altogether in regard to the women? — No, I regard it more as a matter of misfortune that they have been driven to that life. 5859. Then as I imderstand you in your judjj- ment, and from your knowledge of the world, with many women it is not a matter of choice, but it is in great pai't a matter of necessity from want of means and destitution ? — Yes ; and it is considered by the great majority of them as a very dreadful necessity. 5860. And very often it is the result, possibly, of seduction ? — In a very great many instances. 5861. With regard to the expense of allowing soldiers to marry, and so on, my honourable friend pressed you witii the argument that that would be very costly ; do you weigh in any way the principle against the cost? — I wish to make it very prominent that I do not object to the cost at all ; I do not think it should be weighed, for a moment, as against the principle. 5862. You base your argument upon the principle itself? — Yes. 5863. With regard to the number of seductions Mr. Hopwood — continued. in country places, have you ever heard that seductions are as prevalent in places where soldiers are stationed as in other places ? — Yes. 5864. ^^'ith regard to the idea that a woman ia more dangerous for this pur[)ose hygienically than a man, I suppose it is in the nature of things that a woman must be first diseased by a man ? — I fancy so. 5865. Therefore, if a woman be a dangerous instrument, one man may create a dangerouu instrument ? — Yes. 5866. With regard to the State recognising the brothels, you are aware that these constables acting under the Acts arc constantly visiting the brothels, anass, in consequence of the heat; but many of the men used to get passes from one o'clock in the day, lor the sole purpose of going toconsort with pros- titutes. This I have never known in England, or in Ireland ; and I have never known such dis- gusting talk as I heard then about what the women did with the men, and what the men did to the women. I was perfectly astounded, and I could only conclude from the conversation that I heard that itwas the result of this system of inspec- tion. Besides that almost the first day I went on parade with my regiment after this absence of two years, I noticed a young man going out of the barracks and a corporal with him. It was rather an unusual hour ; I knew that this young man had gone to hospital sick that morning, and I asked why he was going. Some one told me that everybody who went into hospital with venereal disease was sent out under charge of a non-com- missioned officer to find the woman who gave him the disease. There was a good deal of laughing and canvassing as to who the woman w'as. I had never known this at home where ])rostitution was essentially a thing of the dark. 5992. Have you had at all a similar experience in subjected districts in England as compared with unsubjeeted districts in England ? — I really do not think that the men themselves distinguish much now between the subjected districts and the unsubjeeted districts. They go from place to place, and there is a sort of hazy idea that all our military stations have this system ; and some- times, in fact in most instances I believe, the men do not realise that they have removed from a subjected district to an unsubjeeted disti'ict, or vice versa, so that the conversation has become much the same in one as in the other. 599.3. Has the conversation become deteriorated to a certain extent in the sense to which you have just alluded ; do you find that these sub- jects are more freely discussed in the barrack- room, and with more disgusting details than used to be the case? — -They are ; I am confident of that. In the olden times, though soldiers' wives used to live in the corners of the rooms with nothing between their beds and the single men's beds but a blanket screen, and I am bound to say that in those days the soldiei's perhaps ^^ ere many of them hard drinkers, and were not so well edu- cated as they are now, still there was a sort of native SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 269 12 May 1882.] Mr. Hanson. \_Co7itiiiued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, native honour about them, so that there never was any vile or obscene talk in the room. 1 am bound to say that for the old soldiers ; I remem- ber them well. But I am afraid that if such were the case now there would be very frequently things said that no woman could listen to. I do not say that this is general throughout the army, but men who are bad have become more openly obscene and vile in their language. I do not say for a moment that the armj' generally is lower in tone than it used to be ; it is not ; it is better. There are a large number of total abstainers ; there is a good proportion of Christian men in the army which there was not then; but the class of men who were addicted to going with prostitutes seem to be worse now than they were formerly. 5994. Now they are more brazen ; that is what it comes to, is it not ? — Yes. 5995. They have not the sense of shame which they would have had under earlier conditions ? — Many men seem rather to glory in it. In the room to which I belonged for some years I was a non-commissioned officer, and I had for many years, more than 1 years, charge of one of the rooms where the single men of the band of my reuiment lived; and I am bound to say that of late I have heard many remarks from good and moral men about the difference in the language ; not the swearing, but the filthy talk. 5996. You have heard good and moral men express that opinion, but have you noticed the change youi-self? — I have noticed the change myself; they have spoken to me about it. 5997. And your experience has agreed with theirs ? — Yes. 5998. Have you heard soldiers talking dis- tinctly about women being subjected to inspection with reference to the time of their visits to them? —Yes. 5999. What have you heard them say? — I have known men who have got intelligence by some means or another that a woman with whom they were in the habit of consorting was coming out of hospital, and they have declared their in- tention of going to see her that night, because she was coming out, and would be well. 6000. That you have yourself heard ?— That I have myself heard. 6001. You do not mean only once ? — No, not once only. 6002. You have heard that from time to time ? — I have heard it from time to time. 6003. So as to give the impression to your mind that the men watched those times and op- portunities in order to safely indulge their pas- sions ? — I believe they do. 6004. Have you ever heard the women say anything to the men about their condition ? — As my regiment was passing the end of a lane where prostitutes live, when it has been an inspection day, women have been standing there, and I have heard them call out, " I am all right to-day ; I am clean to-day"; and a conversation has fol- lowed amongst the men in the barrack-room, when we have got home, on the subject. Mr. Osborne Moi-gan. 6005. When was this ? — That was some years ago ; the last two or three years of my service. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. I was married, and I was not in the barrack- room so much. 6006. It was seven or eight years ago? — Yes. Mr. Stansfeld. 6007. There is a case of a young recruit at Woolwich, is there not, to which you desire to refer ? — i' es. 6008. How long ago is that case? — That is about a month ago. 6009. Will you tell us the particulars about this young recruit? — I was going through one of the venereal wards in the Herbert Hospital, and I met a young man. This young man seemed to have rather a different face from those of a good many who were there ; he seemed simpler looking. I inquired what was the matter with him, and he, with tears, declared that it was the first time he had gone wrong. He told me how he had been brought up ; his parents were Chris- tians, and had brought him up well ; he had been for four or five years a total abstainer ; he had only been enlisted for three weeks, and he had been persuaded by one or two of the older soldiers to go doAvn to a public-house and have some drink, and he had got excited, and they had persuaded him to go with a woman ; and I gathered from him that he thought from what they said that there was not much danger. He assured me that he had resolved before God that he would never have anything to do with them again. That young man has gone away, but I believe he has kept his determination. 6010. But did he state to you that he was tempted by the promise of immunity from disease held out to him by his comrades ? — I do not believe he said that distinctly ; but he gathered from their advice to him and their temptation, that it was safe. I could not say that he did distinctly say that. 6011. Am I right in imagining that you dis- tinctly understood from this young recruit that one of the causes of his being led to this act was the belief, or expectation, that he would not suffer physical consequences ? — He did not tell me so. Mr. Hopwood. 6012. You used the words "there was not much danger;" what did you refer to? — He thought there was not much danger, but he did not say distinctly anything about these Acts, or about the inspection of the women. He was a young lad, who had been only three weeks up from the country, and, I suppose, really hardly knew of such a system at all ; and he was in- flamed by drink at the time. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6013. And he probably did not know what he was doing ? — He may not have been able to give perfect details. Mr. Stansfeld. 6014. You are aware, are you not, that in sub- jected or protected stations, when a regiment, or troop, or a single soldier returning from fur- lough, enters that station they are examined, personally, in order to ascertain whether they are diseased ; and that if they are diseased, they L L 3 are '270 MINUTES OF EVIDEKCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 12 Mai/ 1882.] Mr. Hanson. l_Conti7iued. Mr. Sttinsfeld — continued, arc sent to hospital, and tliat if not, they are let alone? — 1 am aware of that. 6015. And you arc aware, are you not, that that rule obtains only in subjected districts, and that in otlier districts tliat precaution is not taken ? — Xot now. 601 G. "What is your opinion of that system of examination of the men ? — It is very offensive indeed to a good number of men : others do not mind it at all. GOl". Do you think thut it is demoralising? — I think it is. "When 20 men, and some barely men amongst them, lads of 16 and 17, are to- gether in a room and in the sight of eacli other are inspected in what, I must saj-, is a disgusting manner sometimes, it must be demoralising in its eiFect on those youths. 6018. You are not in favour, therefore, of the periodical examination of men, in order to render less objectionable upon the ground of justice, the examination of women ? — 1 am not in favour of examination as it is at present conducted. 6019. The Committee, from your evidence, know that you are opposed to the system of examination of women ; are you, or are you not, altogether opposed to the examination of soldiers? — I am not altogether opposed to it. 6020. But to the indiscriminate examination of every soldier upon entering a subjected dis- trict you are opposed ? — Yes. 6021. For instance, let us see what that system of indiscriminate examination implies. There are, are there not, in almost all regiments, instances of moral, rcliijious, and temperate men who do not consort with these women ? — There are men of that character. 6022. Do not those men feel it an indignity to have to submit to examination ? — They do. 6023. Especially in the same room with, and in sight of other men ? — Yes, especially when some of the other men are men who have lost all modesty, and who make fun of the blush of shame that appears in the cheek of the modest young man. That makes it more offensive. 6024. Are any men exempt from this examina- tion ? — Only married men ; they are exempt. 6025. But I suppose it sometimes occurs that those married men would be better for examina- tion, docs it not, or at any rate that they might be found not free from disease ? — I have known cases of married men contracting disease, and I have known cases of married men who consorted with prostitutes, and who boasted of it ; and they were not subjected to inspection. 6026. And they would somewhat enjoy their exemption from inspection ? — That class of men would. 6027. Have you known them laugh at or jeer the moral single man whom there was no need to exainine, for the necessity of having to sub- mit to the examination ? — I have ; I have heard a married man say to a single man, who strongly objected to it, " Oh, I wouldn't eare if I was inspected every day," and I have heard him lau"-h at him for his objections. There is a man who is still in my regiment ; I remember his enlistment ; he came to the regiment a total ab- stainer and a thoroughly good man; he re- mained so all my time ; I knew him 12 years, and I am sure that, in the mind of anyone in the Mr. Stansfeld — continued. regiment, there never was the slightest sus])icion that this man consorted with prostitutes ; but he had to go in to the examination the same as the others, and I, as the scrjcunt who pariulod the band, had no jiower, althougli he was a very dear fi'icnd of mine, to say, " You need not come ;" I was bound to ])arade him the same as the others, and I felt it a wrong myselr ; and there were two or three other men too who ought not to have been subjected, to examination. 6028. You have read Captain Harris's Re- turns, have you not? — I have looked at souie parts of them. 6029. You were in Aldershot in 1875 and 1876, were you not? — Yes, jtart of both years. 6030. I have before me Ca])tain Harris's Re- turn for the year 1880; and, in Return, No. .3, page 21,1 find the total luuuber of brothels at Aldersiiot, including public-houses, beerhouses, and private houses, is jiut down at 20 in the year 1875 ; what do you say to those figures ? — T never counted those jjlaces, but I am inclined to think that there must have been three times that number. 603J . The exact figures are these : in the year 1875, private houses in which women resided and practised jirostitution, 22 ; private houses in which accommodation was indiscriminately pro- vided to all comers for the purpose of jirostitu- tion, 2 ; and others, coffee-houses, &c., 2 ; you do not believe those figures ? — -The place seemed to me to literally swarm with prostitutes ; it is not a large town, but there used to be an enor- mous number of prostitutes ; they seemed to live in houses all over the place. 6032. Do you know the extent of the district under the Contagious Diseases Acts at Aider- shot? — It included all the surrounding places ; I have been out to most of the little surrounding places, because I was on the local jjreacher's list of the Wesleyan's there while I was a Ser- jeant, and I used to go round to wherever there was a Wesleyan chapel. 6033. I find in the first schedule to the Act of 1869 that the Aldershot district comprises a number of parishes in the county of Surrey and the county of Hants, the total number being 23 parishes ; you are not disposed to think that there is only one house per parish where prosti- tution is practised, and three over? — No. 6034. I find in the same Return that the number of prostitutes in that year is put down at 142 ; does that accord with your observation and experience, or not? — No. 6035. Do you say the same that you said of the brotliels, viz., that you should have thought the number was not less than three times as ' great? — Not less, I should have thought. 6036. Have you read the evidence of the Rev. Dr. Osborn, the President of the Wesleyan Con- ference ? — I have. 6037. Speaking, not merely as an Army Scripture Reader, but speaking in your private and individual capacity, do you agree in the moral and religious objections stated liy Dr. Osborn to this Conmilttee, against the Conta- gious Diseases Acts ? — I do. 6038. Is it within your knowledge that those moral and religious objections are shared gene- rally by those whom you would call the moral and SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 271 12 May U Mr. Hanson. \_Coiitihucd, Mr. Stansfeli — continued, and religious men in the service ? — They aa-e. Of course when you say the men, I mean those with whom I have come in contact, of the non- commissioned officer, and private ranks. I can- not say much for the officers. I do not come in contact with the officers much. 6039. You mean those men with whom you have come in contact, and whom you have found to be moral and religious men who have joined, I suppose, in religious services with you? — Yes, who are members of the Bible class at the Home, and members of the Temperance Society. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 60-tO. You would not go so far as to say that no moral and religious man was in favour of the Acts, would you?— No, I would not say that. Mr. Hopwood. 6041. On the other hand, perhaps you do not know any one that is in favour of them ? — -Yes, I do ; the great body of the men, the majority of men of moral character, men who themselve3 are not addicted to this vice, are of opinion that it tends to demoralise the men by making the thing easy, and, as they think, safe. Ml-. Slaitsfeld. 6042. And that you undertake to say, from your own experience, is the greatly preponderat- ing opinion, to say the least, of moral and reli- gious men in the army ? — So far as I know, it is. 6043. Have you yourself met with cases of moral and religious private soldiers, who never- theless favoured these Acts ?— I have met with men who were really good men, but who were in favour of the Acts, because they believed that they had the effect of lessening the disease, and of modifying the character of the disease. 6044. And those men were tempted to waive their moral and religious objections upon hy- gienic grounds ? — Yes, they thought of the lessening of the nursery attendant upon the disease. 6045. But those men would be quite excep- tions in your experience, would they not ? — I was talking last night to a man of that character, and I wanted to get what he thought of these Acts, and he started by taking that ground. He is a man I have known for some years. I knew him in Alder- shot before; he is now in Woolwich. We entered into conversation upon the operation of these Acts, and he began to recollect as to what he had seen, and I believe he is inclined now to hold the other view, that the Acts are morally • wrong, and therefore cannot be physically right. 6046. But I understand you to say explicitly, judging from the men with whom you yourself have come in personal contact, that the large majority of the moral and religious men in the service are opposed to these Acts ? — Yes. Dr. Farquharson. 6047. With regard to the Acts at Gibraltar, was Gibraltar ever actually under a system like that of the Acts, or was it only a voluntary mu- 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued, nicipal arrangement ?— That I cannot say. I only know that the women were inspected on one certain day. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6048. Were they compulsorily inspected ? — Yes, every one of them had to be inspected every Saturday. That was in 1864 and 1865. Dr. Farquharson. 6049. Do you think from your military expe- rience that in the olden times, before the Acts were introduced, men were deterred from forni- cation by the fear of catciiing disease ; do you think that they reflected beforehand ?• — I think they did. 6050. And you think that acted as a deterrent? — I do not think that in former days men, as a rule, contracted venereal disease while they were sober ; I do not think they much went with prostitutes while they were sober ; they did not form the plans of going with prostitutes so much. And there was another thing; I am bound to say that when I was in Limerick there were some terrible cases in the hospital of venereal disease, and they must have had a deterrent effect on the men Ugly stories went round among the men of some who had got so bad that they had to be smothered. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 6051. When was this? — In Limerick, many years ago, 25 years ago. Dr. Farquharson. 6052. Are there any rumours of that sort about now as to the nature of the disease ? — No. 6053. Do your hear opinions that the disease has been lessened in intensity since the Acts have been put in operation ? — I do. 6054. In former days, I tliink, you stated that the men were arrested if they were seen walking with prostitutes, and that that constituted a mili- tary offence? — Yes. 6055. Are they still arrested in towns which ai'e not under the Acts if they are seen walk- ing with prostitutes ? — Not anywhere that I know of. 6056. There is no difference in that respect between towns under the Acts and towns not under the Acts ? — No. 6057. Do you think, from your experience, that more men consort with women now than in former days ; from your recollections of Wool- wich, for instance, do you think that men prac- tice fornication more largely now than they used to do in the olden times before the Acts? — I think they do. 6058. But that is, I suppose, an impression in your mind; of course you cannot give sta- tistics ? — I think they do. There is more care- lessness about the way in which they speak of it. 6059. But that would not necessarily imply a greater amount of vice ; they may talk more about it, but of course that is a very different thing from actually going with the women ; do you think they actually go more with women L L 4 than 272 MXNLTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE 12 May 1882.] Mr. Hanson. \_Coittinncd. Dr. Farquharson — continued, than they used to in the olden days? — They ■would not talk about it if tlicy did not do it. 60G0. "W'c arc told that there is a considerable number of clandestine prostitutes in tiieso towns that are under the Acts ; I sujiposc that if tiic men have as much confidence, as you say they have, in tliis Government provision of clean ■women for them, they do not associate with the clandestine prostitutes? — But the men would not know all the women who were jnotected ; I take it that no soldier in Woolwich wouhl know half the women that were, or were not, protected. 60G1. I thought one of your great arguments against tlie Acts was that the men knew when the women came clean out of the hospital ? — In some cases. 6062. But I thought your general argmnent was that the Acts increased their consorting with women, because tlicy thouglit these women were clean ? — The men who are given to the company of prostitutes in Woolwich believe that the women are all inspected. 6063. Then it is evident that they have not taken pains to make themselves acquainted with the provisions of the Acts? — I think I said that all that the men considered about the xicts was that there was a system of inspection of the women by which they were, in a sense, kept free from disease, sent to hospital if they were suffering from disease, and sent out again when they were well. I do not think that the general knowledge of the men of the army as to the Acts is much more than that. 6064. As regards the disgusting details which you heard in tlie regiment on your joining it m Corfu, the details had reference to what passed in Corfu, had they not ? — Yes. 6065. Have you any knowledge as to the con- dition of the women there, and wliether thuir mode of conducting themselves may be more degraded than in this country, and whether that mav not have made a special impression upon these men's minds and induced them to furnisli you with these details ? — Prostitutes are pretty much the same everywhere. 6066. As regards the deterioration in the con- versation of the men which you observed, may not some of that be due to the impression made u])on your own mind being stronger on these points than it used to be ? — But it was just then, in 1861, that it made that very strongest im- pression, when I went from England to Corfu and got among them, and found the difference of tone which had crept, I suppose, over the men during those two years that 1 was absent froai the regiment. 6067. They were the same men, I think; you admitted that the tone of feeling and morality of the army generally is better than it used to be years ago? — Yes, the men are soberer. As a whole, the army is soberer. 6068. Of course, that would indicate rather that the Contagious Diseases Acts have not any general deteriorating effect upon tiie army ? — I'here have been other influences at work that have, in a sense, counteracted that. In these towns there were no Scripture readers, there were scarcely any recreation rooms, there was nothing for the soldier but the canteen, or the public- Dr. Farquharxon — continued, house. A Bible class saw almost unknown ; there was not sucli a tiling, I believe, as a regimental temperance society. Taking into account the imjjrovcd moral tone of the army at large, all these things nuist be reckoned for. 6069. One word about tlic alleged demoralising influence of the medical inspections. 1 do not know how you conduct matters in your regiment, but in the regiment with which I was formerly con- nected, and in which I made many hundreds of inspections, those inspections were never conducted in sight of tiie different men ; they were alwavs carefully introduced into a corner and inspected one by one ; was not that so in your regiment? — No ; the men fell in in a line in the barrack- room, and were all ins'pected one after the other as tlie surgeon walked along. 6070. Tliat is very objectionable, but that is only a detail of the examination. In my old regiment we examined them very carefully in a corner of the room shut off from the rest of the men, and the examination conducted with all decency ? — There cannot be any decency about it to a decent modest man ; it is indecent alto- gether. 6071. But I think you said tiiat you did not object to the iridiseriminate examination of sol- diers ? — I said 1 did object to the indiscriminate examination of soldiers. 6072. I think you indicated that you did not object altogether to the examination of soldiers? — I objected to the indiscriminate examiuation of soldiers. 6073. You said thatyou have frequently known diseased married men, I think ? — I did not say frequently ; I said I had known some. 6074. You would not believe in the panacea recommended by .sonic of the witnesses here as a preventive of immorality, i. e., to allow universal matrimony in the army ? — There are immoral married civilians, as well as immoral married soldiers. 6075. I do not wish to cast any aspersions upon the army ; I only wish to know what your vielv Would be on this point ; do you think it desirable to allow universal matrimony in the army, in order to check disease? — There never would be universal matrimony. I do not see why men of good character should not be allowed to marry, provided that the women they were going to marry were of good character. Mr. Osborne Mor(jan. 6076. Would you allow every soldier to marry? — Every man of good character if he could find a young woman of good character too who was .willing to marry him. 6077. You think it would not interfere with the efKciency of the army ? — I do not think it would. Mr. Cavendish Bentmck. 6078. You would not allow a man to marry a prostitute? — Certainly not ; I would not allow a known prostitute to be brought in to associate on terms of equality with the other women. 6079. Are you opposed to the Acts ; would you desire to see the Acts repealed ? — I should be glad to see them repealed, but I should not be glad to return to the old state of things which allowed SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 273 12 May 1882.J Mr. Hanson. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish ^ewft'wcA— contlnuecL allowed some poor unfortunate womeu to die of venereal disease on a heap of straw in the corner of a brothel. 6080. Then what you would desire to see is some modification or alteration of the Acts? — I should certainly like there to be ready access to a hospital for a woman who was diseased. 6081. And would you desire that she should be detained there until she was cured ? — I think she would wish to stay there until slie was cured. 6082. I understand your view to be that there should be hospitals maintained at the expense of the Government where these poor women, whom you so feelingly describe, should be received and treated for venereal disease ? — I would not have hospitals for these special cases. I would have the women able to get into any hospital for the treatment of sick people. 6083. All the hospitals for the treatment of that disease are special hospitals, practically ? — Yes, but why could they not go into other hos- pitals which are not siiecially for venereal dis- ease ? 6084. Are you aware that at the present moment the general hospitals do not receive venereal patients '.' — No, I am not. If they do not do so they ought to. 6085. Is it not your opinion that there should be hospital accommodation provided for these suffering women ? — Yes. 60S6. Must not that be provided by the State'? • — If the voluntary effort of the people of the country would not meet it it would ha\e to be done by the State. 6087. Are you not aware that at the present moment the voluntary efforts of the country are insufficient for the purpose ? — I am aware that they are ; but it may be that they are deterred by the operation of these Acts. 6088. You desire to see a sufficient provision for these suffering women ? — Yes. 6089. Supposing that these suffering women are admitted into Lock hospitals, do you think that it is expedient that they should be detained there until they are cured? — I do not believe in Lock hospitals at all ; I do uot believe they ought to be in there. 6C90. Su[)posing that there are womeu taken into hospitals to be cured of venereal disease (it does not matter whether in a Lock hospital or in any other hospital), when once they are in the hospital, do you think it expedient that they should be detained there until they are cured ? — Yes, I believe they have as much right to be detained until they are cured of that as they would have to be detained until they were cured of small-pox. 6091. I understood you to say that you were av/are of cases where soldiers in hospitals, both for venereal disease and for other complaints, have been visited by prostitutes ; do you know of any such cases from your own knowledge ? — I said I believed some of the women to be prosti- tutes ? — ^1 did not say that I could prove that they were prostitutes, or that I was certain of it. 6092. Have you, yourself, seen soldiers being- visited by any of these women whom you have thus described ? — Yes. 6093. But you only believed by their general appearance that they were prostitutes ? — And, as 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Beiitinck — continued. I said before, from the character of the men, and from the disease that they were sufieriag from. All these things together led me to the opinion that the women were prostitutes. 6094. But you did not know positively that they belonged to that class ? —Practically a man cannot say that he knows a woman to be a pros- titute unless he has seen her in the act of prostitution. 6095. And you had never seen them in the act of prostitution ? — No. 6096. Do you believe that the soldiers dis- tinguish between subjected districts and unsub- jected districts, and that when they are in a subjected district, they indulge more freely in fornication than when they are in an unsubjected district ? — I said before that I did not think the men at all knew when they passed from a sub- jected district to a subjected district. 6097. You think it made no impression upon them? — Not a bit. 6098. Are vou stationed at "Woolwich now ? — Yes. 6099. Have you been there any considerable time? — No, not yery long; a year and eight months. 6100. Have you ever seen any indecent con- duct there on the part of the registered prostitu- tutes going to the examination rooms ? — No, I did not know where the examination room was until I read Mr. Kruuse's evidence. 6101. Have you ever seen anythiui; peculiarly indecent in the conduct of the registered women who consort with soldiers at Woolwich ? — Not more in AVoolwich than anywhere else. 6102. Have you read any of the evidence that has been given before this Committee by those ))ersons who are in favour of these Acts ? — No, I do not think I have. 6103. You have not read Mr. Tuffield's evidence ? — I know Mr. 'I'uffield well, but I have not seen Mr. Tuffield's evidence. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6104. Will you excuse me asking you what is the exact position ol an Arm}' Scripture reader; by whom are you employed ? — By the Army Scripture Reader's Society. 6105. You have no official position recognised by the military authorities have you ? — No ; per- mission is always given for the Army Scripture readers to go about amongst the men and to visit them in barrack quarters. 6106. You are employed by a society which devotes itself to that laudable purpose ? — Yes. 6107. You spoke of the state of things whicli existed before the Acts ; I presume, from the length of your service, you had ample opportunity of observing the state of things to which you referred, which prevailed before 1864, had you not ? — Yes. 6108. I suppose that the condition of those poor women at that time was very terrible, was it not? — I was a boy when I enlisted, but still I heard men talk about the terrible things that happened as regarded the women. 6109. When you spoke of these shocking in- stances of disease, were you speaking of the men, or of the women, or of both ? — Of both, 6110. You, of course, had a great deal of M M experience lb t.\ IIM-.M !■: rvKl.N lUOFORE THK 12 May 1882.] Mr. Hanson. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Mort/nn — continued, experience while you were in the army, hoth of subjected :iud of unsulyected tricts? — Yes, if a man forms the habit of consorting with prostitutes in a subjected dis- trict when he thinks it is saie, that habit is very hard to break oH\ and he carries it with him ivherever he goes. 6114. in that way you would account f:'r there being no difference in point of immorality between the subjected and unsubjected districts? -Yes, and regiments come and go. 611.0. lias every regiment to pass through a .subjected district? — Yes, a regiment rarely stays more than a year in one place. 6116. You certainly astonished me very much by saying, and I regretted very much to hear, that "there had been a great increase in the licentious habits of the soldiers oi" late years ; is not that contrary to the impression generally ])revalent upon the subject. I certainly was under the impression that the soldiers were very much better behaved now than formerly.' — There is not so much drunkenness ; that is the thing which is taken most notice of with regard to the soldier. 6117. But surely there is not so much sexual vice in the army as there was, is there? — I think there is more. 6118. -Are you aware that there is evidence the other way? — I have not seen any evidence as to that. I know that in my regiment the boys of late years went out with jirostitutes ; they did not in the old times. 61 ly Might not that increased prevalence of sexual vice be, to some extent, owing to the short service system ; the men are of course younger under the short service system than they were under the i;ld system ? — The average age of the men is younger than it was, of course. 6120. Would not that perhaps account for the greater prevalence of sexual vice, if it is the fact that there is a greater prevalence? — I do not know : I think that a man of .30 is quite as likely to be addicted to cmisorting with prostitutes as a man oi 20. 6121. You would go so far as to say that there is more vice now in the army than there was in former days? — More of that particular kind. 6122. Notwithstanding the decrease of drunken- M r. Osborne Morgan — continued, ness and the increase of education ? — I do not believe it is so much reganled as a vice or as a sin as it used to be: and so it has spread. 6123. Are you prepared to say that there is in the army generally in the unsubjected districts, as well as in the sitiijected districts, a greater prevalence of sexual vice than there was when you joined ? — I believe so. 6124. .May I ask the grounds upon which you found that rather paradoxical opinion? — From day after day and night after night secitig the soldiers with the women. 6125. In Woolwich? — .\nd everywhere else; in Cork and in Dublin. 6126. Where has your regiment been stationed for the last tive or six years? — I left the regiment in Limerick ; before that wc were at Ivinsale ; before that at Parsonstown, sometimes called Birr ; bel'ore that in Dublin ; before that at Colchester; before that at Aldershot ; and before that at Pembroke Dock. 6127. Of course you arc aware that the exami- nation of the men is not a matter that comes under liie Acts at all, but tiiat it is purely a matter of regimental or military regulation? — How can that be? If a man went on furlough from Pembroke Dock and came back again, he would not be inspected. If he went on furlough from Aldershot and returned, he would not be inspected. 6128. But that inspection is not provided for by the Acts? — I do not see anything about it in the Acts; but still it is a consequence of the Acts. 6129. You mean that only those men who come into subjected districts are subjected to examination ? — That is all. 613(;. '["hat might be altered, might it not, without any alteration of the Acts ; it is a pure matter of regimental discipline, is it not? — It cannot be regimental discipline. 6131. It is a matter of military regulation, is it not ? — I suppose so. 6132. In fact all those examinations of men (not the examination of womeu, which are statu- tory) are purely matters of arrangement which the military authorities could alter to-day if they liked : do you not suppose that if those examina- tions are conducted in the promiscuous and public and indecent way in which you state they are conducted, that might be very easily changed? — It might. 6133. It would not require an Act of Parlia- ment to do that, of course ? — No. 6134. It is a matter within the discretion and under the control of the military authorities, is it not ? — Yes. 6135. 1 gather from what you said tiiat you would not approve of an immediate repeal of the Acts, which would have the effect of throwing things back into the condition in which they were some years ago ? — I do not think it would make things as they were that number of years ago. 6136. May I ask why not? — The sanitary inspection of towns is a good deal looked after. Those houses are not left in secret in any place as they used to be. I do not think we ever could get back to the original state of things altogether. 6137. But assuming that the result would be to SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS 275 12 May 1882.] Mr. Hanson. [^Continued. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued, to throw these unfortunate women bai-k to the state which existed, say in 1864, soon after you joined the army, you would consider that a great evil, would YOU not ? — That would be an evil. Mr. Hopivood. 'k 6138. But you do not think that that would be the necessary result, do you ? — I do not think so. 6139. I suppose you think that benevolent people and religious people miiiht subscribe for hospitals for the care of these women, and for the cure of disease ?— ^I am quite sure they would 6140. It is, as I think you have told us, your opinion that they are some what deterred by the existence of these Acts from doing all that they might do in that direction? — I think they are. 6141. You were asked about the disgusting mode of examining men in the army in some regiments, and you were asked if that could not be changed, and you said that it could ; but is that to your mind evidence of how people, when they begin these matters, get accustomed to something that is disgusting, and do not change it? — I do not altogether understand what you mean. 6142. To your mind, is the eri'ect of the authorities indulging in such indecent matters as the examination of men, that they become hardened to the mode of doing it, as, foi' example, in the instance you give us, where it is done without any decency, and without any regard to the feelings of the men, who are all paraded together ? — 1 am sure I cannot tell. 6143. The first time that one has to do with anything that is indecent is a shock, the second time it is less of a shock, and the third time, perhaps, you may become accustomed to it ? — Of course there is no shock to the medical man, because he is accustomed to these examinations ; he has to examine recruits, and to see sick men. 6141. And that leads him to be less careful about the feelings of those whom he has to examine ? — Perhaps he does not think about it. 6145. He is hardened to it, is he not; is not that the result of the system?— It may be the result of the system. 6146. I understand you to say that you are not altogether opposed to the examination 'of soldiers ; to what extent would you examine soldiers in regard to this matter? — I certainly would have a periodical examination of men who were pretty well known to be given to going with prostitutes, unless tiiere was some other method of inducing them to go to hospital when they become diseased. 6147. Would there be any more difficulty in ascertaining who those men were than there is on the part of the police in ascertaining who the prostitutes are ? — 1 do not think there would. As a non-commissioned ofiicer I knew the men in my room well ; I knew their habits ; they were before me all day. 6148. I do not understand you to approve of the system, yet you would not be opposed to the examination of soldiers of bad moral chai-acter? — I believe that, as a rule, the non-commissioned officer in charge of a room would know whether any man in his room had venereal disease, or not, 0.75. Mr. Hopicood — continued, and if he did his duty he would see that that mna was sent to hospital. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6149. Without examination ? — Without exami- nation, Mr. riopwood. 6150. That is where you have reason to believe him to be diseased ? — I believe it to be impossible that a man could live in a barrack room without his comrades knowing that he had venereal dis ease, if he had it. 6151. You have been asked ab-out the amount of sexual immorality in the army : when you speak of an increase of sexual immorality are you speaking of that part of the army which is not what I should call the good character part of the army ? — Yes. 6152. Then if the army has been improved, either in the class of men who have enlisted, or by the elevating agencies which you yourself have described, that portion of the army is, of course, of the highest character ? — Yes. 6153. It lias improved as compared with the old state of things? — Yes. 6154. It seems to be sugiiested to you that the younger a man is the more likely he is to resort to the company of prostitutes ; taking the lads who enter the army at the age of 18, is that your opinion, or is it your opinion that a man must be ratlier older to become more hardened to the society of prostitutes ? — -This young man that I saw the other day was absolutely ashamed ; he was a young man who had not been long from home, and he resolved that the offence should not be repeated. 6155. Then I understand that you do not adopt the idea that the younger age of the men in the army will account for the increase of sexual immorality ? — I do not think it will. 6156. In fact, you quite repudiate the sugges- tion, do you not, that boys or young men are likely to be as hardeued as those who have gone through some years of this life ? — I do not think they are so likely to be hardened. 6157. As regards the difference between the conduct of men in the subjected and in the unsub- jected districts, I understand your opinion to be that the effect of the Acts upon that class of men is to bring them all to a level in point of morality, whether they are in the subjected districts or in the unsubjected districts ! — That is my idea; in fact, it must be so. I saw something about a return of Colonel Tucker's, whose regiment had gone from a subjected to an unsubjected district. It was plain that the men had not in any way Tessened their visits to prostitutes in consequence of going to an unsubjected district, because he said that the disease immediately increased. 6158. Y^ou are speaking of Colonel Tucker's letter which has been referred to two or three times, regarding the state of his regiment at Dublin?— Yes; that would show that the men did not begin to guard themselves because they had got into an unsubjected district. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 6159. Did you know that that regiment had just come firom a subjected district? — -I did not; M M 2 but MINITI-S i)F EVIDENOK lAKliN HKKOKE TllK 12 May 1882.] Mr. Hanson. \_Coiitinued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. l)Ut 1 concluded thnt it had come iroui a subiecled district from its bcitu^ allei;ed that the disease had so much increased in Dublin, and that there was a request on tlio i)art of that Colonel that Dublin might be placed under these Acts. 6160. But that is mere speculation on your pai-t ; you do not know, as a matter of fact, that the regiment of which Colonel Tucker had lommand had just come from a subjected district? — It is not altogether specuiation : it could easily be verified. 6161. But you do not know, as a matter of fact, that they had come from a subjected district ? — Xo. I do not know, but I could find out. Mr. IJupwuod. 6162. You have told us that in the ordinary course all the regiments go through the subjected districts in turn in someway? — No regiment passes through its tour of service at home without being at Aldershot once or twice. 6163. I believe" this regiment of Colonel Tucker's had recently come from Zululaud, but we will not follow tliat uji any further. Your impression, as I think you have told us already,^ is that the eflect of these Acts upon the part of the army, which is not of good character, is that immoral sexual intercourse is not regarded as a vice? — It is regarded as a necessity. 6164. And it" is defended by such arguments as you have stated, that it is sanctioned by authority, and that there are surgeons provided to inspect the women?— Yes, and hospitals provided to put them in. 6165. And all this under Acts of Parliament passed for the purpose ? — Yes, and the men believe that they were passed solely for their benefit. 6166. Yon know the fact to be that if a man £NLK TAKLK BLVuliL Till-. 12 May 1882 Rev. R. W. Allen. [ Cuntinued. Mr. ^VflHs/J-W— continued, iiitoiiiiatiun, and iu tlie precise form wiiicli he seemed to cxjiect ? — It was simply this : I hap- pened to meet Dr. Oshorn casually, and he told me that he was coming to give evidence before the Select Committee oi' the House ot Conunons on this matter, and asked me whether 1 could put him in po.-'session oi any facts that would help his evidence, pro or con : I told him that generally I had not much intimate exj)erience of the working of the Acts, having been busy in other matters in the garrison towns in which I have been quarterd, but that I knew a Scripture reader at Woolwich who seemed to be thoroughly iiu roiiirnit in the whole matter, ;indthat I would see him and set such information from him as I thought would further his case. 62()j!. Was that Mr. Hanson ? — No. the Scripture reader that I had in my mind wa.s Mr. Krause. Subsequently U> my making that promise to Dr. Osborn, I found that Mr. Krause had been up for examination, and that he had given all his evidence. Under those circum- stances the bulk of the detailed facts, with which I had ho|ied to have been able to furnish Dr. Osborn. I find have already been put in the possession of the Committee. Dr. (Jsborn was subsequently called away by severe family afflic- tion, and I did not communicate with him until such time as he took uj) duty with us once more. Meanwhile he came to the (Jommittee and gave evidence. Mr. Stansfeld. 62()o. During your experience in the sub- jected districts where you have resided for 12 years, on the whole, what has been the nature of your duties ? — I have been dischargini: the duties of a cliaplain to Wesleyan troops. 6204. You are not an ajjpointed chaplain ? — Ko. 1 have been authorised to minister to Wes- leyans in the army, and since Ajiril of last year have held the appointment of officiating clergy- man. 6205. The special detailed information which you were to place at Dr. Osborn's disposal was really the evidence of Mr. Krause ? lintirely so. 6206. Will you tell us your general expe- rience, and the effect produced u])on your mind ; what, ior instance, do you regard as the prac- tical effects of the Contagious Diseases Acts upon the men themselves ? — I am compelled to say that it is a depreciation of the viorah of the men. 6207. In what way !•" — I know that whilst the intention of the advocates and movers of the Acts may have been altogether different, they seem to the men to be Acts for the safe commission of fornication. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6208. Are you speaking now fi"om conver- sations which you have had with men who have told you so ? — Quite so ; for instance, I will give the Committee a simple incident which happened some years ago at Aldershot. A very fine lad in one of the cavalry regiments (I expect he is uut of the service by this time) came to me in my Soldier's Home and asked me whether .Mr. Oshornr Monjiin — continued, he could have a private interview with me. I said " Yes, by all means ; what is it you want?" With much hesitation, he asked me this (juestion, " Is it right, sir, for a man to have connection with a woman before he is married ? " I said '• Right, what is it the Bible say.-? There are the great iiistnietious for all such things lus this." *' Well, sir.'" he said, " ' whoremonger.'s and adulterers God will judge." " I said. " That is sufficient." " But,"' he said, " sir, one of the non-commissioned officers'" (I think it was) " has been jiersuading me that it is right, and that it is necessary, and has been pointing out the fact of the Acts " that we are now discussing '• making provision for the indulgence to be had safely." That I take to be a typical ease of the jwssible effect of the Acts upon young aud inexperienced men. Chairman. 6209. You did not know the non-commissioued officer, I sup))osc ? — 1 did not, but the man was a very fine lad, and his career sui)se'|uently was very bright and good. Hence from tliat incident and from many other similar incidents, I am compelled to say that the effect of the Acts is a depreciation in tlie morals of the men. Mr. Stansfeld. 6210. Do you think that the hope whicli the system holds out, whether it be illusory or other- wise, of immunity from the ordinary physical consequences of sexual vice, is also imm(n°al in its tendency ? — I quite think that " A\'hat do you think of the Acts, or what do the men think of them?" is a question that I asked some time ago of some men. ''Oh. well sir," they said '' they have been a capital thing for the soldiers." I said " What do you mean ? " " Oh, it saves them from disease." " But what of the moral effect, the improvement or otherwise, of the morale of the army?" " Ah, well, sir," they said, "that is another question altogether ; " leading me to the inference that they felt that it was a thing which tended to depreciate rather than to elevate the morale. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6211. That is the construction that you put uj)on that answer? — Quite so; it was the c«m.struc- whicli they intended to convey. Mr. Stansfeld. 6212. Those two causes of moral deterioration, viz., the removal of the deterrent motive of fear, and the notion that the thing is regular, tiiat there is no impropriety in it if you can keep free from disease, those are dangers which would specially affect the young and raw recruit, are they not? — I quite think so. The inexperienced recruit is influenced by the example and con- versation of older and more experienced sol- diers. 6213. Are those opinions of the practical immorality in their operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts shared withyi your knowledge, or to what extent are tliey shared by the religious and riioral community in the subjected places where you have been stationed ?— I liave not gone, as I said just now. thoroughly into the question ; I have been too busv on other lines ; but SELECT COMMI'lTEy ON CONIAGrOUS DISEASES ACTS. 279 12 May 1882.] Rev. R. W. Allen. [ Contiii ufd. Mr. Stansfeld — coutinued. but from not infrequent conversations that I have had with the moral and religious section of the community at Woolwich, and Aldershot more especially, I am perfectly persuaded that my opinion of the Acts is shared by them, and that it is very strongly held that the Acts are dele- terious to the morality of the population. 6214. And probably tliey would particularly have in view the greater moral danger to the young ? — Certainly. 6215-16. Then! need hardly ask you v.'hether you do not, on these and similar grounds, regard this legislation as immoral in its practical teach- ing and effect? — In its practical effect I am compelled to say that I regard it as immoral. 6217. Have you read Dr. Osborn's evidence? — I cannot say that I have studied it, but I have read it so that I know its gist and drift. 6218. Dr. Osborn stated to us his objections and those of the Wesley an body to this legislation on morid and religious grounds : do you share the objections which he expressed? — Yes. 6219. And you coincide with the reasons which he put forward? — I do: I tliink I have pretty well stated the reasons that he holds. IVlr. Cavendish Betilinck, 6220. In your opinion does the fact of the soldier being in a subjected district make him more inclined to consort with prostitutes ? — It removes one of the embargoes or caveats against his sinning. 6221. Do you think ft has any influence yn\h him? — I think so. 6222. Have you read Colonel Tucker's account of the condition of the garrison at Dublin, whereby he shows that 43 per cent, of his regiment were suffering from venereal disease? — Yes. 62 2o. Do you think that the fact of Dublin being an unsubjected district had any effect upon the minds of the soldiers in preventing them from consorting with prostitutes ? — I should hardly be i)repared to express an opinion, but I would look at that case in another way. The regiment had just come home from the Zulu war, and it was full of home fever, as we understand it in the Army, and of home excitement; and perhaps it had a considerable amount of back pay in its possession, as regiments do sometimes have ; and there would be a fling which would produce, to a ver}^ great extent, the large amount ot disease that was in the regiment, and that Colonel Tucker's letter refers to. 6224. Do you know that that was the fact? — I do not pretend to pronounce an opinion upon the case at all ; the regiment had come home from the Zulu war, I believe, when it came to Dublin. I speak under correction, but that is my idea. 6225. Colonel Tucker states in that letter the enormous per-centage of the garrison of Dublin who are in hospital with venereal disease ; and that is also proved by the evidence of Mr, Macnamara. Besides that General Glynn, Lieutenant General commanding the district, writes a memorandum, which is in these words . " This letter is a lamentable revelation of tlie extent of an evil well-known to exist. I forward it however only as a commentary on the 0.75. -Mr. (Javendisli Berdhtck — continued. effect of neglecting preventions sanctioned by law." Having these facts as to Dublin before you, are you still of opinion that the circumstance of a soldier being in a subjected district has any great influence on his mind as to whether he will consort with prostitutes, or not ? — I cannot speak with reference to the case of Dublin, because 1 was not there, and I do not know the circumstance ; but I can speak with confidencr to this, both from my own observation and from conversation with men ; that they regard the Acts in their operation,' say at Aldershot or Woolwich, as affording a safeguai'd against the consequences of sin, and therefore as a means whereby they can sin safely ; and it is in human nature that, if a vicious man knows, or thinks he can do a thing safely, he will feel more free to do it than if he thought he would suffer as the result of doing it. 6226. I am not denying that a man would, if he were in a subjected district, imagine that he might consort with prostitutes with more safety to himself. What I warn to know is wliether from your familarity with the habits of soldiers, you tliink that makes a great impression upon the generality of soldiers, and that the fact of their being m a subjected district leads them generally to freer indulgence in that habit? — I think it breaks down the fear that a man has against it. 6227. Assuming these facts which are stated in this letter to be correct, and having regard to the fact that a large number of the soldiers in the garrison of Dublin, which is an unsubjected district, were diseased, does it not show that the soldiers as a body are careless of any such pre- cautions ] — I should think it shows that some soldiers are ; but I do not think that that at all invalidates my point that the effect of the Acts as I have seen them, bearing fruit in the mind and dispositions of the soldiers, is to lead them to feel, first of all, that, in a certain way, the thing is regarded as a necessity, and, secondly, that it is provided for, so that they can sin safely ; and hence the barrier of fear and restraint is broken down. 6228. But is not the fact that a very large per- centage of the soldiers in a particular garrison in an unsubjected district were diseased, a proof that the soldiers, whether the district be subjected or not, will still indulge very much in the practice of fornication ? — I am afraid they will ; I agree with you there ; but at the same time I stand by my point, that the effect of the Acts is to remove one of the deterrents ; and to my mind anything that tends to depreciate the morale of the soldiers inflicts upon the State a serious loss as regards their efficiency. 6229. Then do you think that the soldier is more wicked in a subjected district than in an sub- jected district ? — ■ ISTo, but I think the soldier is in diinger of becoming depreciated in his mo- rality as the result of the Acts. 6230. The Arniy generally ? — The temptation is there. 6231. But you do not say that the soldiers in a subjected district are worse than the soldiers in an unsubjected district ? — No. 6232. With regard to these unfortunate women who are received in the hospitals, do you agree M M 4 with 280 MINHTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 12 May 1882.] Rev. R. W. Allen. Wonlinited. 'Sir. Cfinendish Bentinck — contimieil. with the last witness that venereal liive opinions as to the remedies which ought to be applied in lieu of the Acts if they were repealed. Mr. Osborne Morgav. 6:^33. It must be a matter of sj)eculation, more or less ? — It must be, more or less, a matter of speculation, of course. G234. You have had considerable experience of soldiers both in ])rcsent and past times; I hope you do not agree with tlie last witness, that the British soldiei' has become, in this particular respect, more immoral than he used to be.' — I cannot say ; I have not had any experience of soldiers in times previous to the operation ot these Acts ; I think Mr. Hanson's pciint was this ; that the wicked men became more leehc- rous and licentious. Mr. !Stansfehl. G23o. Mr. Hanson's evidence was also to the effect that the malirial of the Army was improved ? — Yes, I entirely agree with that. Mr. Oihoriie Morr/'irt. 62.3G. But are the men more licentious, taking ihem generally, than they were when you first liecame acquainted with the Army? — I do not think so ; I think there is a decided lift in the morale of the Army all round ; but I attri- bute it not to the effect cf the Acts, but to other ])rocesses. G237. Taking the Army all round, I'Otli in relation to the indidgence in this particidar vice, and in other vices generally, you would say that there has been, to use your own exjiression, a tlerided lift? — 1 think so. 6238. Can you give me any idea of the number of vour congregation at Woolwich ? — About 300. " G239. Have you I'ead the evidence given by different witnesses, Mr. Tufficld and others, as to the woi-king of the Acts? — I ha\e not. G240. Perhaps it is hardly fair to ask you whether you are pre])ared to make any statement as to the operation of tlie Acts in Woolwich ? — I am not. 6241. You coidd not tell us whether any scandals have arisen ? — I have not heard of any scandals. 6242. You could not tell us anything about the mode in which the metropolitan police administer the Acts .'—I have no information whatever about that matter. 6243. Can you give us any information with regard to the leeling <.f the jiopulation generally upon the subject of the Acts? — So far as I have been made cognisant of the feeling it is what I liave said just now. Of course my relations Avith the people generallj', in that direction at all events, are amongst those who are trying to do good : and their feeling is that the Acts are deleterious. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 6244. Are you speaking now of your own congregation, or of \vhat I may call the outside world? — I am speaking more especially of the people with whom I more particularly associate, my own congregation. 624j. You could not give us any idea of the views of the leading citizens? — I could not. 6246. Should you go so far as to say that it is desirable that this disease should be allowed to go on. in order that it might serve as a deterrent to men froTu cunmiittiiig vice? — -Arc you now speaking with reference to the army? 6247. I am sj)eakinL:' generally? — I cannot think that it is right to facilitate sin. 6248. Do you really think that, as a matter of fact, this disease does act as a deicrrent in the case, say of soldiers?— I think so. 6249. In son-iC cases it might; there must he cases in which the man conunitting the sin woidd hardly be in a condition to be subject to the influence of any deteiTcnt, or anything else ? — When they are in the act cf committing it, I suppose you mean, or when they are drimk? 6250. I sii])pose tiiat in a large proportion of cases in which men fall into this .-in they really hardly know what they are doing ? — jNIany of my friends have expressed the, opinion to me that soldiers do not do this un- less they are drunk ; when 1 was stationed at Aldershot, I have seen men come down in broad daylight and go in and out of these brothels, who obviously were not drunk, and who ob- viously went there for the purpose of fornica- tion. 6251. But I suppose that in a great many cases men get excited by liquor, and their moral sinews, if I may use such an expression, are weakened by indulgence, and they really do not know what they are doing ? — I think that many a soldier gets into sin in that way; but I do not think that drunkenness excuses fornication any more than it excuses murder. JMr. Hopwood. 6252. But do you suppose that tlie Acts have any effect in deterring a man who is drunk from indulging in this vice?- — I do not think that .-i man is deterred by anything when he is drunk. 6253 A man may be drunk and sin who may not have been an immoral man jireviously, may he not ? — Yes. 6254. A man who has been immoral jireviously to his being drunk is more likely to fall into im- morality when dnmk than a man who has been l)reviously moral ? — I should think so, of course. 6255. Then if the effect on the Acts is, in your judpment, to affect the minds of the soldiers whilst they are sober, they are more likely to fall into sin when they are drunk ? — That is an abstruse mcta]ihysical question which I am hardly pre])ared to answer off-hand. 6256. Do you mean to say that a man who is deteriorated by bad teaching is not more likely to offend in this way, whether he is drunk or not? — I have no experience of the effect of inso- briety, so that I cannot tell the effect upon the mind. 6257. You would not advocate these Acts as a mode of keeping the drunken out of fornica- tion ? — Xo. 625S. If SELECT COMMITTEE OK CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 281 12 May 1882.] Rev. R. W. Allen. \_Conthiued. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 6258. If their tendency is any way, it must be in favour of it ? — I quite agree with you there. 6259. You were asked, were you not, whether you believed the men to be worse in the subjected districts than in the unsubjected districts? — I was. 6260. What was your answer? — If I gave any answer to the question, I believe I said that whether the men are for the time being living in a subjected district or an unsubjected district, the general tendency of the Acts is to bring down the morale of the rAmy. 6261. You were asked whether they were not worse in the one than in the other, and I think the gist of your answer was this : that the district does not affect them. Those men as I suppose you are aware, go from district to district, and you know that they go from a subjected district to an ixnsubjected district, and from an unsub- jected district to a subjected district? — -Yes. 6262. In your mind is it the district which can have the effect upon the man, or is it the system ? — The system. 6263. Then it is not the fault of the district, it is the fault of the system that which you arraign which is put into execution for the protection, as it is assumed, of these men from disease ? — Yes. 6264. You were asked whether it is a matter of speculation as to whether the necessary wants of the diseased throughout the country would be met by private benevolence ; that is a speculation which has been proved to be a certainty in a vast number of instances, has it not ? — Yes. 6265. You were asked whether it is not a speculation that private benevolence should be equal to such a charge as this ; have you any doubt about reducing that speculation into certainty? — Personally I have no doubt that if the religious public were made aware of the need they would respond to it. 6266. The religious and benevolent generally ? —Yes. 6267. Taking the Army all round you say that there is a decided lift in it ; is that accounted by the enlistment of a better class of men now ? — I should be disposed to say so to some extent. 6268. Is it also accounted for by the provisions Mr. Hopiuood — continued for their rational recreation in the Army ? — That is so to a much greater extent. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6269. There are a great many causes at work, are there not ? — Yes. Mr. Hoptuood, 6270. But, as I understand you, the decided lift all round does not affect your reasoning in regard to these Acts? — No. 6271. These Acts would be likely, would they not, a priori to affect the least moral part of the Army ? — I should think so. 6272. And in proportion as a man was not well taught or grounded in morality, they would be likely to tempt him into the mischief which you have pointed out? — Certainly. 6273. And in your judgment is that the effect of them ? — I think so. Mr. Stansfeld. 6274. If I understand you rightly, you agree in the view that during recent years there has been a great improvement in the conditions of life of the soldiers, and that the result has been the attraction to the service of rather a better kind of man ? — That is, to a great extent, my opinion. 6275. And, therefore, you would say that all these considerations must have tended to favour- ably affect the habits of the men with regard to the practice of Sfxual vice ? — -Certainly. 6276. On the other hand, you are of opinion that the education and influence of the Conta- gious Diseases Acts has been of a demoralising character ? — I am compelled to say so by my observation. 6277. And that, therefore, these Acts have, so to say, diverted or checked the beneficial and moralising influence of the other agencies and conditions to which vou have referred? — To the extent to whicli they counteract them at all they must. 6278. And, in your opinion, the Army which has for many reasons improved in its character, would present a still better condition of things if these Acts did not exist?— -That is the necessary conclusion from the foregoing statement. 0.75. Nn 282 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tuesdaj/, I6ih May 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Cavendish Rentiuck. Mr. Burt. Viscount Crichton. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Ilopw'ood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Sbaiighnessy. Mr. Stansfeld. Me. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr. Henry Whitney, sworn ; and Examined. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. fi279. I believe you are an Inspector of the Metropolitan Police, appointed under the Con- tagious Diseases Acts for the district of Dover ? — 1 am. 6280. Do you know Eliza Southby, who was the defendant in the case of Whitney v. Southby, lately in Dover ? — I do. 6281. How long have you known her ? — Since February. 6282. Have you known her by sight? — By sight only. 6283. Do you know whose daughter she is?— Her mother is living, but her father is dead ; her father was a publican, I am told, but I do not know it of my own knowledge. 6284. A publican in Dover ?— A publican in Dover, at the " Duke of York," in Snargate-street. 6285. Do you know where she resided ?— The only address that I know is No. 3, Adrian- street. 6286. She has resided there since you have known her? — Since I have known her. 6287. With whom has she resided ? — A person named j\Irs. Ford. 6288. Do you know what Mrs. Ford's occa- pation is? — She takes in mangling; she is a mangle woman. 6289. You say that you have known Eliza Southby since February last; under what cir- cumstances did you come to know her ? — She came under my notice by seeing her with difte- rent men in the streets of Dover. 6290. That is to say, you saw her with your own eyes in Dover with different men ? — Yes. 6291. Beginning with February last?— That was early in February. 6292. On different occasions ? — Yes. 6293. AVhat were those men with whom you saw her? — Soldiers. 629-4. Do you state that from knowing the soldiers, or from the fact that they were in uni- foi-n, ?_From the fact that they were in uniform. 629,5. You say that you have seen her on various occasions with different soldiers since February last ? — Yes. 6296. Could you tell us how often you have Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued, seen her in the company of soldiers? — I cannot, jn-eviously to the 1 1th of February. It was from what the constables reported to me ,about that date that I gave directions for oliservation to be kept upon her. Previously to that no note was made of the times that we have seen her in com- pany with soldiers. 6297. You gave directions to watch her ; will you tell us wh^at you yourself saw of her, and the date*, if you can give us them?— On the 14th of Aiiril. Mr. Hopivood 6298. jNIay I ask what you are looking at? — This a book which the constable's reports are entered in on the following day; they are taken from their memoranda, and put into this book. 6299. Is it in your handwriting? — No, in the men's handwriting. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6300. I think you s.aid that you first got to know Eliza Soutliby personally on the 11th of February?— Previously to the 11th of February. 6301. "You say that on various occasions you saw her in company with different persons in uniform whom vou supposed to be soldiers ; could you particularise the occasions upon which you saw her in such company ?— Only pn two occasions. . 6302. What were those two occasions i — One on the 14th of April. Mr. Hoptvood. 6303. Are you still reading from the book ? — Merely to refresh my memory as to the times. _ 6304. It is not in your handwriting ?— No, it is not. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6305. But I thought you said you saw her on the nth of February ?— No ; since the 11th of February. . . 6306. Did you see her at any time in Fe- bruary ?— It is impossible for me to retain all these things in my niemoiy. 6307. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 283 16 May 1882.] Mr. Whitnet. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 6307. You say that you saw her in company •with various soldiers on various occasions since the 11th of February; I should like you to particularise, If you can, as to the dates on which you, yourself, saw her with these soldiers ? — On the 14th of April. 6308. At what hour did you see her on the 14th of April? — At about a quarter past nine at night. 6309. Where did you see her ? — In Snargate- street. 6310. With whom was she?— With a soldier. 6311. What kind of a soldier was he? — An artilleryman. 6312. I suppose you knew that by his uni- form ? — Yes. 6313. What was she doing at a quarter-past nine in Siiargate-street? — She was walking Snargate-street towards Townwall-street. 6314. Did you take any notice of what she was doing or saying on that occasion ; were you near enough to hear ? — No. 6315. You are perfectly certain that It was she? — Quite. 6316. And that she was walking with an artilleryman ? — Yes. 6317. Do you know where they went? — I met a constable there and gave him directions what to do, and he followed them. 6318. But you did not follow them yourself? —No. Mr. Hopwood. 6319. What was the name of that constable? — Mathews. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 6320. When did you next see her ? — I saw her after that on the 17th, when I went to the house. 6321. You told us that you had first seen her previously to the 11th of February? — Previously to the 1 1th of February. It was on that date that I gave directions for observations to be kept for entries to be made in this book. 6322. Will you tell me where you have seen her, and. If so, under what circumstances, and with what men (of course I do not ask their names) previously to the 11th of February? — I could not give any dates. 6323. But you are positive that you saw her before the 11th of February? — Positive. 6324. On various occasions? — Undoubtedly, yes. 6325. With different soldiers ?— Yes, with dif- ferent soldiers. It was through that that J gave instructions for the men to take notes about her. 6326. You state that previously to the 11th of February you had, with your own eyes, seen her walking with different men in uniform on different occasions ; is that so ? — Yes. 6327. And that is what you refer to when you say that you have seen her early in February ? —Yes. 6328. And it was owing to your personal ob- servation of her on those occasions before the 11th of February that you gave directions for her to be watched ; is that so ? — Yes. 6329. Between the 11th of February and the 0.75. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued. 14th of April I understand that you never saw her yourself? — There was one date, but I cannot remember that. 6330. Once in the course of those two months you saw her, yourself, though you cannot give me the date ? — I did. 6331. Will you describe In what company she was on that occasion ? — She was in Market- square. Mr. Stansfdd. 6332. Was it before April the 14th ?— No, I should think it would be, perhaps, in March. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 6333. Between the 11th of February and the 14th of April ?— Yes. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 6334. At what time did you see her ? — In the evening, after dark. 6335. Could you particularise the time more precisely than that ? — No, I could not ; between eight and nine possibly. 6336. In whose company was she on this occa- sion ?— I think it was a man in a line regiment. 6337. A man in a red coat ? — Yes. 6338. I come now to the 17th of April. You say that you saw her again on the 17th of April; will you detail, in your own words, the circum- stances under which you saw her then ? — I went to the house at half-past seven, and she was not in. Mr. Hopwood. 6339. What house ?— No. 3, Adrian-street. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 6340. You had ascertained, I suppose, her residence ? — Yes; it was supposed that she lived at No. 1, and I went to No. 1 first, and they told us where she lived. 6341. Were you alone? — No, I had Mathews with me. 6342. Is Mathews a constable under you ? — Yes. 6343. You called at her lodgings at No. 3, Adrian-street at half-past seven on the 17th of April ; will you detail exactly what took place ; did you find her In ? — No ; I told the landlady, Mrs. Ford, that I would call again. 6344. And, I suppose, you did call again ? — I called about 10 o'clock. 6345. On the same evening? — On the same evening. 6346. Were you again accompanied by Ma^ thews? — Yes. 6347. Did you find her In then ? — She was in then. 6348. Was anyone else present? — The land- lady. 6349. What took place at that interview ? — I told her who I was and what I had seen myself, and what had been reported to me by the con- stables. Mr. Hojnvood. 6350. Will you tell us what you said yourself? — Those were my words to her, N N 2 6351. Repeat 284 MIXITKS OF EVIDKNCK TAKEN BEFORE THE 16 May 1882.] Mr. Whitney. \_Cunimuvd. Chairman. 6351. l\oi)eat, so far as you can.tlie words that you addressed to her, usiiis; the tirst person? — 1 said to her, " From wliat 1 have seen, and iVom ■what lias been reported to nie, it is my duty to tell you that you will have to attend the exami- nation at No. 0, Seven Stars-street." Mr. Oshornc 31urg(in. 6352. That is the place where the medical examinations are carried on ? — Yes. She said, " "What for?" I said, " Because your conduct is anythino- but respectable ; yim arc about nightly ■with different soldiers." She said, " There are dozens as bad as I am, and you do not take any notice of them." 6353. Did she say anything else? — I said, •' Well, you can please yourself; you can either come, or you can go before a magistrate ; it is immaterial to me. But distinctly understand that I do not press you to come there ; I am telling you that you can come if you think projier, and sign this submission form." 6354. Did j-ou tender a submission form ? — I did not. She then said, " \Yell, I will come." But she thought it was very hard that I should select her, and let others do as they liked. 6355. Did she say when she would come ? — T told her the following day. 6356. That would be the 18th of April?— Yes. 6357. Did she sav that she would come on the 18th of April?— Ye's. 6358. Was that all that passed ? — I said, " You know where it is, don't j'ou?" She said, " No, I don't ; " and the constable gave her a piece of paper with the address on it. 6359. That was the only written document that passed between you ? — That was the only ■written document that passed between us. 6360. AYas there any other conversation? — No, I think not. 6361. And then, I suppose, you left? — I left then. 6362. She did not say anything about anybody taking the matter up for her, did she ? — Yes, she did. She said, " I have got a gentleman who will take the matter up for me." 6363. You did not inquire who he was? — No; I knew pretty well who it was. 6364. At what stage of the conversation did she refer to this gentleman ? — It would be after she told me that there were dozens as bad as she ■was. 6365. Was it before or after she said that she would come ? — It ■was after she said she would -come. When she said she would come, she said, " I will come down, but I know a gentleman who will take the matter up for me." 6366. Have you now stated the whole of the conversation which took place ? — Yes, so far as I can remember. 6367. I suppose you left after this ? — Yes, 6368. Did she come on the 18th?— No. 6369. Were any steps taken in consequence of her failing to appear ? — Yes ; I made a report to Mr. Oshorni: Morgan — continued, the Commissioner, and he directed that an infor- jnation should be laid against her. 6370. Have you got the information, or a copy of it ?^ — No, I have not. I served a copy at the house on the 22nd, and the girl that took it in threw it out into the road; not this girl Southby, but another one- 6371. Have you got the report that vou made ? — I made a report, but I have not got it. 6372. What was the document that she threw into the street ; was it the summons ? — It was the summons. ]Mr. Tlopicood. 6373. Did you leave it yourself? — I did. Mr. Oshorne Morrjan. 6374. That is to say, you served it, I suppose, upon the servant who opened the door? — The girl who was there. I gave it to her, and she threw it out into the road. I picked it up again, and I said : " This is the notice for Eliza Southby to attend before the magistrates on the 28th." She said : " I have got orders not to take any paper in." I put it upon the mangle, and said : " I consider this notice served," and left the house. 6375. Did she throw it out after that ? — No. 6376. When you gave it to her she threw it out into the street? — Yes. 6377. Then, on the 28th, the summons came on to be heard, did it not ? — Yes. 6378. And it was dismissed ? — It was dis- missed. 6379. You are quite clear that the times when you saw her in company with various soldiers, though you cannot state the actual dates, were before the 11th of February? — Yes. 6380. You saw her with your own eyes in com- pany with different soldiers at night before the 11th of February? — Yes. 6381. That, you say, led you to instruct your men to watch her ? — Yes. 6382. What men?— The two constables. 6383. How many constables have you under you? — Only two. 6384. Are you quite clear that before the lltli of February you saw her in company with various soldiers? — Quite positive. 6385. And I think you said that, between the 11th of February and the 14th of April, you saw her once ? — Yes, once. 6386. Then, on the 14th of April, you saw her under the circumstances which you have detailed, and that led to your visiting her on the 17 th of April ; is that so ? — Yes. Chairman, 6387. In whose possession would the report be ? — The Commissioner's. I send my reports on to the superintendent, and he forwards to the Commissioner. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 285 16 Mmj 1882. William Mathews, sworn; and Examined. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6388. Are you a constable of the Metropo- litan Police ? — Yes. 6389. Where are you stationed? — At Dover. 6390. How long have you been in that em- ployment ? — Three years next month. 6391. Have you been all that time at Dover ? — No, I have been about 11 months at Dover. 6392. Where were you before? — At Wool- wich. 6393. Do you know the girl Eliza Soutby, who was tlie defendant in the case before the magistrates at Dover ? — Yes. 6394. When did you first see her? — I saw her a number of times, frequently from Christmas last ; but if you will permit me to refer to my books for the dates, I shall be able to explain. 6395. Are those books kept by yourself? — Yes. 6396. When did you first see her ? — I believe it was about the 9th of February. 6397. You say that you know her ; can you tell us, speaking from memory, or refreshing your memory by reference to your book, when you first saw her ? — On the 9th of February is the first memorandum I have made. 6398. Could you state from memory whether you had seen her before that ? — I could not men- tion a date, but I had seen her before. 6399. Covdd you tell us at about what time you had seen her ? — I could not give dates, but I iaad seen her at different times from Christmas to the 9th of February. 6400. Under what circumstances had you seen her? — Walking with soldiers about the streets. 6401. When you say that you have seen her at various times times since Christmas, do you speak from memory or from entries that you have' made in your book ? — From my memory previous to the 9th of February. 6402. Do I correctly imderstand you to say that, before the 9th of February, you have no entry as to Eliza Southby in your book ? — I have none. 6403. Therefore, any statement as to that time that you make to us is made from your memory, unrefreshed by your book ; is that so ? — Yes. 6404. Before the 9th of February you say that you had seen her, though you cannot give the «xact dates ? — Yes ; it was seeing her so fre- quently with different men, and her being fre- quently at various hours in the evening walking about and speaking to soldiers, that caused me to report the matter to my inspector ; and in conse- quence of his orders I took notes of what I saw afterwards. 6405. Mr. Whitney is your inspector, I sup- pose ? — Yes. 6406. When did you make that report? — I could not mention the date, but it was a date previous to the 9th of February. 6407. What occurred on the 9th of February ? — I saw this young woman 6408. Will you read your entry? — " Thursday, Sth February 1882. At 10.30 p.m. was seen in company of a private soldier, line regiment, in 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. Biggin-street, a young woman about 22 years of age, height 5 ft. 6 in. or 7 in., complexion fair, hair fair, fringed across the forehead, light mix- ture dress, a polonaise which I cannot describe, and a black jacket." That is the whole of the entry. 6409. Who was the person referred to in that entry ? — Eliza Southby. 6410. Did you know her ? — I knew her well by sight. 6411. Did you know her by name at that time? —No. 6412. And you say that you saw her at 10.30 in the company of a private soldier ? — A soldier of a line regiment. 6413. You made that entry at the time, or immediately afterwards ? — Yes. 6414. I will take you now to the 11th of Fe- bruarj% two days afterwards ; have you any entry under that date? — Yes. " At 10.15 p.m., I saw a tall girl, complexion fair, hair fair, fringed on forehead, large mouth, dress black jacket and brown dress, leave the Clarence Theatre in com- pany of a gunner, r.a., and proceeded up Snar- gate-street, past Hart's pawn-shop, along Slip- passage, past the Monument, to the sea front, thence to the back of Clock Tower, where they remained for a short time." That is the whole entry upon that occasion. 6415. Does that entry contain a true statement of what you saw upon that occasion ? — Yes. 6416. And was that girl whom you describe in that entry the same as the girl whom you describe in the previous entry ? — Yes. 6417. It was Eliza Southby ?— Yes. 6418. You are positive of that? — Yes. 6419. Was it dark; I suppose the streets of Dover are lighted with gas, are they not ? — There was no gas in this road where they went to, at the back of the clock tower ; it is a dark foot- path. 6420. I suppose there was gas at the Clarence Theatre, was there not ? — I have never been in the theatre ; I simply saw them leave. 6421. Was the street lighted with gas? — Yes. 6422. And was the street in which you saw her on the 9th of February lighted by gas ? — Yes. 6423. Then you could have no doubt as to the identity of the girl ? — No, not in the least. 6424. I sujjpose you did not know either of those soldiers ; you merely concluded that they were soldiers from their wearing uniforms ? — Yes, by the uniforms. 6425. What is the next entry which you have relating to this young woman ? — The 3rd of March is the next entry. 6426. Will you read that entry ?—" Friday, 3rd March 1882, at 11.10 p.m., the same woman as mentioned on the 1 1th February (tall and big mouth) was in company of a gunner, E.A., near ' The Chance ' public-house ; at the same time they kissed each other." Another constable was with me at the same time. N N 3 6427. Who 286 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOltE THE 16 Mmj 18S2.] W. ^Mathews. \Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 6427. Who was the constable with you ? — No. 146. 6428. You s:iw this with your own eyes? — Yes. 6429. Adrian-street is the street in which the girl lives? — Yes, and where this public-house is situated that I mention now. Mr. Hopicood. 6430. This was in the street, you say ? — Yes. lAx. Osborne Morgan. 64," 1. You saw them in the street kiss each other ? — Yes. 6432. AVas that street lighted with gas at the time ? — Tl cs. 6433. Have you an}' doubt about the identity of the girl upon this occasion ? — Not the least. 6434. What is tlie ne.xt entry in your book relating to this young woman ? — " Thursday, 9th RIarch 1882. At 9 j).m. I saw the same woman as mentioned on the 1 1th February and the 3rd March, and another short girl, whom I cannot describe, meet two soldiers of the k.a. in Snargate-street, near Court & Co.'s, when, after a short conver- sation, they all proceeded lo a public-house in Northampton-street, and there remained for half- an-hour ; afterwards went to Adrian-street, and after ten minutes laughing and chaffing, disap- peared from my observation." 643.3. You do not know what became of them afterwards ? — No. 6436. Is that entry true of what you saw with your own eyes ? — Yes. 6437. Are you positive that the young woman to whom you refer in that entry was Eliza Southby ? — Yes, I am sure of it. 6438. Who was with you at this time ? — I was alone in this case. 6439. On what occasion did you say that tlierc was a ])olice constable with you ? — On the pre- vious occasion. 6440. That would be the 3rd of JIarch, would it not ? — Yes. 6441. You are quite sure that that entry states accurately what you saw with your own eyes upon tlie 9th of March ?— Yes. 6442. I think you said that Adrian-street was lighted with gas ? — Yes. 6443. Is Suargate-sireet lighted with gas ? — Yes. 6444. Therefore I suppose there would be no difficulty in identifying auy person by the assist- ance of the gas light ? — Ndt the slightest. 6445. What is the next entry in your book relating to Eliza Southby? — "Tuesday, 21st March 1882, at 7 p.m., the same woman as mentioned on 11th February, 3rd and 9th of March, ill company of a gunner, E. A., in High- street." That is all that entry. 6446. Is that entrj' correct in every respect ? —Yes. 6447. That is to say, you saw this girl, Eliza Southby, with your own eyes on that occasion in company of a gunner at the time, and at the place and under the circumstances mentioned in the entry ?— Yes. 6448. You say that you have seen her three times in the company of a gunner ; could you Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, tell us whether it was the same gunner ? — I have reason to believe that it was not the snmc, in consequence of the difference in their heights. 6449. Why do you believe that it was not the same ? — Sometimes she was with a much taller man than at other times. 6450. You say that you have reason to believe that it was not the same man on those three occasions ? — No. 6451. What is your reason for that belief ? — In consequence of the height. Sometimes the man was a little over her shoulder or about the same height, and another time he would be lialf a head taller. 6452. Then it was not the same man on those three occasions ? — No, to the best of my belief. 6453. I suppose High-street is a lighted place ; is it lighted by gas ? — Yes. 6454. What is the next entry that you have relating to Eliza Southby ? — " Thursday, 23rd March, at 10.30 a.m., the same woman as men- tioned on the 11th F"'cbruar3-, 3rd, 9th, and 21st March, was in company of a bombardier in Snargate-street." Police constable No. 146 was with me. 6455. Did you see her on this occasion vour- self ?— Yes. 6456. And you are positive that she was Eliza Southby ? — Yes. 6457. Do you know what they did on that occassion ? — I simply met them in Snargate- street. 6458. Was this bombardier that you saw the same man as either of the gunners with whom you had jireviously seen her? — I am sure it was not the same man as the gunners that I had seen her with on former occasions. 6459. What is the next entry relating to this girl?—" At 7i p.m., 31st March 1882, Soutliby was seen in company of a gunner, R.A., by myself, police constable 146, and Insjicctor Whitney, when I followed them as far as a bridge (railway) leading to the Whitfield-road, when I lost them." 6460. Who is police constable 146?— -His name is Cogger. 6461. Docs that entry correctly state what you saw ? — I lost the run of it. 6462. But does tiiat entry correctly state what vou saw with your own e)'es on the 31st of jMarch ?— Yes. 6463. Was that gunner to whom you referred on the 31st of March the same as the gunners, as far as you can judge, with whom she had been seen in company before ? — I really believe it was not the same man. 6464. What is your reason for belief? — In consequence of so frequently seeing her with men of different heights. 6465. But was this man of a different height, or of the same height as the men with whom she had been seen before ? — The man I saw her with on the 31st of March, I should think, was about five feet nine inches, as near as I could judge. 6466. Would that correspond with the height of any of the men with whom she had been seen before ? — I could not be positive as to that. 6467. I SELECT COMMITTEE OJi CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 16 May 1882.] AY. Mathews. 287 [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 6467. I understand you to say, that you did not know any of these soldiers, but that you merely believed them to be soldiers, from the fact of their wearing uniforms ; is that so ? — Yes. 6468. What is the next entry in your book relating to this girl? — ^" Thursday, 6th April 1882, at T\, Southby was in company of a gunner, n.A., in Bench-street." 6469. Is that the whole entry ? — Yes. 6470. You saw her, yourself. I suppose? — Yes. 6471. At the'time and iu the place that you mention? — Yes. 6472. Can you tell us wbether this gunner was the same as the other gunner with whom you had seen her in company ? — I have reason to believe that it was not one and the same person on each occasion that I saw her. 6473. What makes you say that ? — Because sometimes I saw her \'\ ith a man of 5 feet 7 inches, and at another with a man of 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches. 6474. Your ground for believing that it was not the same man on all these occasions, was that there was a difference of several inches in their heights ? — Yes, and also the complexions. 6475. AVas there any other reason ? — Yes, I have another reason. On the 6th of April the same date, I received information Mr. Hopwood. 6476. This is not what you saw yourself? — No. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 6477. I think you said that you had some other reason besides the heights of the different men, for believing that they were not one and the same man ? — -Yes, their complexions differed. 6478. In what respect ? — I sometimes saw her with a man with a dark moustache, and at another time with a man with a fair moustache. 6479. AA'^hat is the next entry ? — " Friday, 14th April 1882. At 9.25 p.m., l' met Southby in company with a! gunner, e.a., in Snargate- street (top end), when they proceeded through St. James's-street up Castle Hill ; and when they got past the stables, they remained near the bank for about 10 minutes, and on parting kissed each other, the gunner going into barracks. Southby walked back as far as St. James's-street, when she accosted another gunner, r.a., and after a short consultation, proceeded to a dark lane situated near the New Park, at (he top of Maison Dieu Fields, they being there at 10.20 p.m."; Inspector Whitney saw her on that occasion. 6480. Does that entry correctly state what you on that occasion, the 14th of April, saw with your own eyes ? — Yes. 6481. AA'hat sort of a place is this Maison Dieu Fields ; is it a deserted place ? — It is a bye-lane Avhere there are no lights or houses. 6482. I suppose the streets that you describe were lighted by gas, were they not? — Yes; but up Castle Hill it is not very well lighted. 6483. Still you have no doubt, I suppose, as to the identity of the woman whom you saw on those occasions, any more than on the jjrevious occasions? — No, not the slightest. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 6484. What is this bank that you describe? — This bank is an earth bank, with grass growing on it. 6485. It was not a bank in the sense of a banking establishment ?— No, an earth bank. The Castle premJses are situated on the top of this bank ; the bank is a slope. 64S6. AA^as this a lonely place ? — It is a public road ; but on this occasion I only saw one man besides those two individuals and myself tliere. 6487. How near were j'ou on this occasion to Eliza Southby and the soldier? — I should say about 80 yards. 6488. Was that the nearest point? — That is the nearest I got to them till they moved from the position they were standing in, 6489. Did you. never get nearer to them than 80 yards? — iNot till they moved from the spot where they were standing. 6490. You could hardly have seen them at a distance of 80 yards ? — I could simply see the dark objects standing at the side of the road. 6491. What was the nearest point that you got to them ? — -I actually met them after they moved from the position they were standing in. 6492. Then what was the nearest point at which you were to them ? — I should say about five yards on meeting them. 6493. You could not overhear their conversa- tion, could you ?— All I heard was that the soldier said he would meet her at seven o'clock on the following night. 6494. You heard the soldier say to her that he would meet her at seven o'clock on the follow- ing night ? — Yes. Mr. Hopwood. 6495. Did you put that down in your book? — No, I can well remember that. 6496. AVhich soldier was this? — This was the first soldier, the one that went up Castle Hill with her. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 6497. You were near enough to hear, and you did overhear, some conversation between them ; Avhat was it ? — The soldier said : " I will meet you to-morrow night," and then he went into barracks. 6498. You did not hear what answer she made ? — No. 6499. Who w-ere with you on this occasion ? — No one was with me at that particular time. 6500. I thought you said that Inspector Whitney was with you ? — That was at 9.25 when I met them. Mr. AVhitney was coming up Snargate-street at the same time as these people, and he ordered me to take notes of them. 6501. Was Inspector Whitney in your com- pany when these parties first came up ? — AVhen they first came up Snargate-street ; or rather he met me at the same time as the other peojile met me at 9.25. 6502. You have no other entries relating to this girl, I suppose ? — No. 6503. Do you recollect, on the 17th of April, going with Mr. Whitney to the house or lodgings of this girl ? — Yes. N N 4 6504. You 288 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 16 May 1882.] 'W. Mathews. [^Citnlinued. Mr. Oftborne Morgan — continued. 6504. You heard the evidence given by Mr. Whitney ?— Yes. 650,5. On tiie ITtli of April you went, accom- panied by Inspector AVhitney, to Xo. 3, Adrian- street ? — Yes. 6506. Did you find the girl when you went there ? — Iv'ot on the first occasion. 6507. About what time was that? — About half-past seven. 6508. Did you go again ? — Yes. 650y. Also accompanied by Inspector Whit- ney ?— Yes, 6510. At what time did you go the second time ? — At about 10 o'clock. 6511. You found the girl then, did you not ? —Yes. 6512. Will you state to us, as nearly as you can, what passed in your jiresence and hearing between Inspector ^Vhitney and the girl? — When we went at 10 o'clock and knocked at the door, the inspector and myself were invited in. The inspector asked if Eliza Southby was in (or Southlcy ratliery, and she was in, and she got up and saicl, " Yes, here I ain. What do you want me lor ? ' Tiiere were also two other women, or a woman and a girl, iu the house besides Southby. ' 6513. Who was the woman? — The landlady, I presume. 6514. Mrs. Ford ?— T believe it was Mrs. Ford and auotlicr j'oung woman. 6515. Was the other girl there the whole time ? — No. 6516. Did she hear the conversation? — No. 6517. Did ;Mrs. Ford hear the conversation? —Yes. 6518. Will you tell us what was the conversa- tion? — Insjjcctor Whitney told her who he was, that he was an inspector of ])olice, and that I was aconstal)lo; and he, of course, asked her name and told her that from what he had seen him- self, and wiiat had been reported to him by the constables, it became his duty to order her uj) for medical examination. She said, "For why ; who is your author?" The inspector repeated from what he had seen himself of her conduct and what had been reported to him by the eon- staljles. 6519. What did she say to that?— She said she thought it was rather hard that he should select her ; that there were dozens as bad or worse than she was, and he took no notice of them. 6520. Was anything else said? — Mr. Whituey told her that she would have to attend, or she could please herself whether she attended for medical examination, or whether she went before a magistrate ; but she would be obliged to do one or the other if she did not attend. 6521. Did he tell her when, or where, she was to attend? — Yes. 6522. When and where ? — On the following day, the 18th of April, at No. 5, Seven Stars- street. She said she did not know where the place was, and I gave her a piece of ])aper with the address written on it, at ]\Ir. Whitney's direction, as she said she did know the place. 6523. Can you tell us whether anything more Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, jiasscd? — She said she knew a gentleman who would take the matter uji for her. 6524. Was that the -whole of what jiassed ? — And then about that time, as near as my memory serves me, jNIr. Whitney left, and she (Southby) called me back, and said : " Stop a minute, I want to s])eak to you ; push the door to." 6525. Was any one in the room at this time besides you? — Yes, the landlady, Mrs Ford, I understand it is. She said : " Lo(d< here ; I don't mind coming down to that place, but I don't care to Come when there is a lot of those other rough girls there ; and if you will tell me the best time to come I will come." I told her if she would come at a quarter to one the other women would be gone, and there would be no one there to see her. To my recollection that is all that passed. 6526. I suppose that a quarter to one woidd be after the time when the general examination took place ? — Yes. 6527. And you mentioned that hour because she wished to be alone ? — Y'^es. 6528. At what time does the general examina- tion take place ? — Eetween 12 and 1 o'clock. 6529. Did she appear on the following day ? — No. 6530. Did you take any step in consequence of that ?— Not myself 6531. Y''ou did not serve the notice ? — No, the inspector served the notice. 6532. Y''ou know, of course, that the case was tried before the magistrates; were you examined before the magistrates ? — Yes. 6533. Did you make the same statements before the magistrates that you have made here ? — Not exactly. I might have given it shorter before the magistrates. 6534. Did you state what you told us just now as to the conversation between you and Eliza Southby after Inspector Whitney had left ? — No, Mr. Whituey described that. 6535. Why did you not tell the magistrates what you have just told us about this conversa- tion between you and Eliza Southby ; were you asked the question ? — No. 6536. The young woman was represented by counsel, or by a professional pei-son, was she not ? — Y^es. 6537. Were the police represented by any pro- fessional person ? — No- 6538. Then you simply appeared before the magistrates and told your own story ?^ — Yes. 6539. There was no professional person to assist you ? — No. Mr. Jlopwond. 6540. In your duty as a policeman you are very well accustomed to appearing as a witness, are you not ? — Y'es. 6541. And Mr. Whitney is well accustomed to it, is he not ? — He is a man of great experience. 6542. And I suppose the magistrates' clerk asked you if you had anything more to say ? — I do not remember that he did. 6543. Have you a doubt about it ?— He might have asked me, but I do not remember. 6544. Would you like to say that he did not ? — No, I would not. 6545. Do SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 289 16 Mai/ 1882.] W. Mathews. [^Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 6545. Do you think he did ask you if you had anything more to say ? — I really do not know whether he asked me the question or not. 6546. I am afraid I must begin with this last little matter that we are now talking about. You were with Inspector Whitney at the girl's house, were you ? — Yes. 6547. When you gave her u bit of paper?— Yes. 6548. Mrs. Ford was there, was she not ? — I believe she was. 6549. Have you a doubt about It? — She was there. 6550. Then answer more quickly? — I shall have much pleasure in answering you as correctly as I can. 6551. Then you have no doubt that Mrs. Ford was there? — No. 6552. Remembering that fact, just be a little -careful about this ; do you say that Eliza Southby called you back? — Yes. 6553. How far was Whitney from you ? — Just outside the door, and I was following him out. 6554. Why did he not hear it, then? — I do not know ; because I pushed the door to. 6555. You went in and pushed the door to? — I had not got out of the house. 6556. Did you go back again .' — I simply pushed the door to, and stood behind the door. 6557. Just recollect. Did you say to her : " I say, Eliza, I'll tell you what to do. If you will come down to-morrow, don't come down there till a quarter to one, and then the greater part of the other people will be away. Don't go on till you see me ; I will look out for you and take you in, and we will see what can be done for you " ? — -No, I am sure I did not. 6558. You will swear that nothing of the sort took place ?— Yes. 6559. But you do say that you told her to come at a quarter to one ? — Yes, in answer to her ques- tion. 6560. Did she say: ■' I have done nothing, ^;nd I shall not come " ? — I do not remember. 6561. Will you swear that she did not? — I do not remember. 6562. AVill you swear that she did not say, "" I have done nothing, and I shall not come " ? — I will not swear. 6563. You will not swear that she did not ? — I will not swear ; but I did not hear it, not to understand any such terms. 6564. How near were you to her? — I was standing behind the door. 6565. If she had said it must you have heard it ; what is the size of this place ? — The place is vei'y small. 6566. Then anything she said you must have heard. Now I ask you on your oath, did she not say, '• I have done nothing, and I shall not come"? — Well, I would not swear about that. 6567. Then you will not swear that she did not say so? — I do not remember hearing, to understand, any such remarks as that. 6568. Did she or did she not say, "I have done nothing, and I shall not come "? — I did not hear it. I did not understand anything of the 0.75. Mr. Hnpwood — continued. kind. My memoiy does not serve me on that point. 6569. But if you heard it you would have understood it, would you not? — I have no recol- lection about her saying anything of that. 6570. I want to put it to you clearly and pointedly; will you swear that she did not use these words to you after this about coming at a quarter to one ? — No. 6571. You will not swear that she did not? — I do not remember hearing her ask any such question, or make any such remarks ; I do not indeed. 6572. You left her a paper with the address, did you? — Yes. 6573. And I suppose when she did not know the place you went in and they gave you a pea and ink and you wrote it out, did you not ' — —No. 6574. Had you brought it ready written ? — Yes, in case she should say she did not know where the place was. That is the case some- times, that the young women say they do not know the place, and that they started on the way and could not find the place. 6575. You followed the course in this case that you take in all the cases ? — 1 have in many Ciises given a girl the address written upon a bit of paper when they said they could not find the place. 6576. And all these cases are so much alike that it is ralther difficult for you to remember one from the other, and to remember what you did in each case, owing to the number of cases that you have to deal with? — I can generally re- member ; but I keep a book a to make a note of things in at the time. 6577. Unless you have written down things you do not remember them ? — I could not i-e- member everything. 6578. Then you left a paper ; would you look at this and see whether this is the paper that you \ei {handing a 2:>aper to the Witness) ! — Yes, that is the paper. 6579. "Miss Southby to attend at No. 5, Seven Stars-street, Dover, on Tuesday, the 19tli of April ;" is that what you call giving the ad- dress ? — Yes. 6580. I see you put at the foot of it " at 12 noon " ? — Yes. 6581. Is not this an order to her to attend? — I took it simply as an address. 6582. But you find that they generally treat it as an order, and come, do you not? — No, that is not an official order. 6583. I did not say it was; but do you find they obey this sort of ticket of yours ? — Well, in some cases the address, as I say, is written od a piece of paper; in fact the girls will ask you for it sometimes ; they say, " I do not know"^ where the place is. Please write it down on a bit of paper that I shall not forget." 6584. Do they not treat this as an order to attend, and attend accordingly ; on your oath, is not that the practice, and do you not know it to be so ?■ — Yes ; it is not very frequently done. 6585. I thought you said that you mostly did it? — Sometimes, whea they say they do not know where the place is, I have put tiie address O O down. 290 MINLTlC.s (»K KVIPENOE TAKEN BEFORE THE 16 Mutf 1882.] W. Mathews. [ Co7itinued. Mr. riopwooH — continued- down on :\ Hit of ])a])cr tor tliem at tlicir re- el uest. 6586. But how can that he. if you take it already written ? — I never took one ready written heiore, hut I have written it sometimes in the girl's ))resence. 6.587. You swear that you have never done it hcfore ? — Not readj- written. 6588. Did you not tell me a while since that you had done it hcfore ? — In the girl's presence. 6589. How long have you heen a constahlc at Dover? — About 11 months. 659(1. Did you succeed those other otKcers that were disgraced for hunting a girl ? — I do not know about disgraced ; I did succeed officers that were there previously. 6591. Two that were retired from Dover? — Yes. 6592. Where had your practice been before? — At Woolwich. 6593. In this way?— Yes, for about two years previous. 6594. Let me ask you, in the general course, how do you first look up a girl, and (what is yoiu- phrase for ilj " spot her"? — If I frequently see a girl with different soldiers, that I know to be different soldiers, frequently, nightly, and at times Avhen they are walking about the streets and looking out to see if they could press them- selves into the company of men, and that sort of thing, and stop them and accost them. 6595. Do you mean that if they only confine I hose attentions to soldiers you do not interfere with them? — I should if I saw them with civilians. 6596. Then you would like to amend your answer, ami say "soldiers or civilians " ? — Sol- diers or civilians. 6597. Do you make any inquiry about them when you see a case of this sort, of the neigh- bours, and so on ? — No. 6598. Then what do you do ; do you follow them ? — Sometimes I follow them. 6599. You keep your eye upon them? — Yes, sometimes. 6600. Whenever you meet them? — No, not whenever I meet them. 660 1 . Pray at what time of the day are they safe from this ; in the mornings or in the even- ings ? — It is generally in the night time- 6602. But I observe that one of these entries is in the morning ? — Yes. 6603. Then they are not safe in the morning? — That is to show" that she was then with a dif- ferent man altogether. 6604. Will you swear that : is there any word about a different man altogether ?— Yes, this man that I saw in the morning. 6605. Is there anything in the memorandum to show that it is a different man l — The bom- bardier was not one of the gunners that I had seen her with on the previous occasion. 6606. Is there anything in the memoranduiii to show that it was a different man? — Yes. 6607. What is the difference? — His being a bombardier. 6608. Let us see if that is the entry?— The 6th of Aprd, 1 believe it is ; you are referring to the davtime. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 6609. Then, because you saw hor with a dif- ferent man at half-past 10 in the morning, y ou take that as part of the evidence against her of immorality ?— I ilo not say that it was a case of immorality. 6610. But you put it down? — No, I did not; 1 simply put this down to refresh my memory. 6611. But you have it down as jiart of the evidence against her ? — It is not the 6th of April. 6612. What date is it that you sau hir in the morning?— The 23rd of March. 6613. In company with a bombardier in Snar- gate-street ; is that the time that you refer to ? — Yes, that is the time that I refer to. 6614. What is your notion of a conunon prosti- tute? — My notion of a common prostitute is, as I answered before, by seeing her continually with different men, and going into different out- of-the-way places, bye-lanes, picking uj) two men of a night, on the same night, and aoing into bye-lanes and dark places, where there is no houses, or light, or people. 6615. That is youi- definition. Do you know whether this girl has many friends amongst the soldiers? — No, I do not know anything about the girl, except simply her being with different soldiers. 66 1 C And seeing her with a certain number of soldiers, as you have described, you thought it a ground for ordering her to attend ? — I did not order her to attend. 661". You did not object to order her to attend? — I had no authority. 6618. I know that, but you imparted the evidence ; and you told her to come nji, and you left this piece of paper for her? — Yes, on the authority of the inspector. 6619. I observe three or four of your entries in which you say : " was seen, a young woman ? " -Yes. 6620. Why did you not say, " I saw herV"— When I made the entry in this book I did not st.and about grammar. 6621. I am not asking you about grammar at all, I ask \vhy did you not say, " I saw her?"' — I put my divisional number at the bottom of each page, knowing that it was inyself that made the entry in the book. 6622. But I am asking yt)u why you enter these things, " was seen, a young woman," giving it in the third person : was it by anybody else that she was seen on these occasions ? — Siie was seen on some of these occasions by another police officer. 6623. Then you got it from him, did you ? — No ; sometimes I was with another officer. 6624. Would that prevent your writing that you saw her? — No. 6625. Perhaps you will tell me why, in the third or fourth entry, you alter that to " 1 met?" — I do not know any reason why I did that. 6626. You had no reason for that? — I put it down at the time. 6627. Look at the 14th of April, and see whether I am right ; does not it say, " I met .'" — 1 have got '' I met " on the 14th of April. 6628. JNow look at the next one before it, on the 6th of April ? — Yes, " Was m company." I witnessed it. 6629. i\ow look back to the Slstof March: SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 291 16 Maij 1882.] W. Mathews. [ Cvntimied. Mr. Hopwood—Qorxtm\xeA. is that one of those that describes " I saw it ? " — Whether it describes it so or not it is one and the same woman that I saw with my own naked eyes. 6630. Take this first one, where you met her ; you say that you had seen her a number of times from Christmas last; can you tell me anybody she was with by name or by description ? — No, not by name. The girl herself is a very tall girl, and very conspicuous ; I could not make a mistake in her. 6631. Would you let me ask you how it was that in the three first entries you describe her as the same young woman you saw on such a day and such a day .' — Yes, in my mind I know the person I refer to myself. 6632. Then you put it down there to make sure for yourself? — Yes, for my ow'n private information. 6633. Is it not shown to anybody, to your superiors? — Yes, if thev wish to see it. 6634. And is it not entered up ? — It is entered up in another book. 6635. Would you tell me why you have marked each of these cases with a peculiar reference ; is it to guide your memory for to- day ? — To know that it is one and the ' same person. 6636. Just show me another in that book you have done the same to? — I do not know that there is another one ; I do not believe there is another one. 6637. Then we must have a description of this ; would vou call that a star that you make ? —Yes. 6638. Then these entries with regard to her are marked with a star ? — Yes. 6639. And you do not think that you have another instance of that? — No. 6640. Is that also to tell you whether it is the same girl that you saw on the first occa.sion ? — Yes. 6641. On the 9th of February you say that you saw her in company with a private soldier in a line regiment; 1 suppose it is possible for a virtuous young woman to be in company with a soldier of a line regiment ? — Oh, yes, it is pos- sible. 6642. And then you describe her as " fair hair, fringed across the forehead, and light mixture dress ; " just let us see how light it was, because this is rather material ; was it light or d9,rk, to begin with ? — My mind would hardly take me back to that time to know what she had on then. I take my entries. 6643. But you will Swear that it was light? — I stand by what I entered. 6644. I suppose you will ; " light mixture dress?" — Yes. 6645. Will you give us some idea what you mean by " light ? " — A light colour ; it looked light to me by the gas light. I took it to be a light colour. 6646. Have you any doubt whether it was light or not ?■ — No ; I could not tell what material the article was made of. 6647. I did not ask you about the material, but you stand by it that it was a light-coloured dress ? — Yes, what I call a light dress. 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 6648. What do you mean by '' light ; " as light as a piece of paper? — No, not as light as that. 6649. As light as an Act of Parliament or as black as one ?• — It might be more of the colour of the edge of the book, or barely so light as that. 6650. Was anybody else with her that night? — ±v'ot that I remember. I did not see anyone else. 6651. Do you know a Mr and Mrs. Ruler? — No. 6652. Will you swear that there was no man and his wife there at all that night ? — No, not when I met her with the soldier. 6653. For how long did you see her by this entry of yours ?— I simply met her. 6654. You took a view of her? — Yes. 6655. Did you follow her up the street? — No. 6656. And you only met her for a moment and took this down? — Yes. 6657. Now, let us go to the 11th of February; I observe here, again, there is no name to the entry ; you met her then coming out of the Clarence Theatre ? — Yes. 6658. Was she dressed the same / — I did not notice her dress at the time. 6659. I do not want to be unfair to you, you will see that you say "black jacket?" — Yes, a black jacket. 6660. And anything else ? — And a brown dress. 6661. A brown dress this time; the same as before ? — No. 6662. You do not mean by a brown dress a light dress ?■ — A brown dress. 6663. Not a light dress ; you mean a different dress to the other 'i- — Yes, as near as I can remember. 6664. Did you speak to her on that occasion ? —No. 6665. Was any woman walking with her ? — No, not that I remember. 6666. Is this place that she went along, Snar- gate-street, a pretty well-frequented street? — Yes. 6667. Is 10.15 about the time that the places of amusement are giving up? — They do not always close at the same time. 6668. 1 know that ; but about that time ? — I believe sometimes they are open till 1 1 o'clock. 6669. But is it the time when people come home, a good many of them, and when a good many are in the street? — Yes. 6670. Can you remember whether many people were in the streets that night? — No; I did not notice very many at the time they came out. 6671. Do you remember whether or not there were many people in the streets that night ? — No ; I do not remember that there were many people on that night. 6672. You saw the people coming out of the Clarence Theatre ? — Yes. 6673. A good many would come out of there, I suppose ? — Yes ; but not very many came out at the same time that they came out. 6674. Did they come out early or late ? — They came out at the time mentioned. 6675. And you cannot tell me whether it was early or late ? — There were not such a great number coming out at the same time that this girl and the soldier came out. 2 6676. But 2«)2 MINl/TfcS OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE TUV. 16 xMni/ 1882.] W. Mathews. [Cotitinued . Mr. Hopwuod — continued. 6676. liut there were some? — A few. 6677. On the Ilth of February it was a gunner of" the Koyal Artillery, 1 see ? — Yes. 667S. Were most of these men that you saw her with, gunners ? — Yes, a great many of them wore. 6679. You have only spoken to five, I think : out of the five or six that you have enumerated here, how many were gunners? — Four or five I believe. 6680. Do you make a distinction between a bombardier and a gunner '. — Yes ; he had a stripe. Mr. Osborne Morr/un. 6681. A bombardier is a non-commissioned officer ? — He is a non-commissioned officer. Mr. IIopwoiMl. 6682. Then on the 3rd of March, you were near the " Chance " public-house, and there you saw her with a gunner; that was an artillery- man, was it ? — Yes 6680. And they kissed each other? — Yes. 6684. \Vas this in the open street ; was it in Adrian-street ? — Yes. 6685. How far was it from the door where you knew that she lived ? — Well, I should think it was a couple of hundred yai'ds. 6686. How long is the street "r — It is a long street ; I am not prepared to say, exactly, the length of the street ; but it was some distance away from where she lived. 6687. Did you see her go into her own home ? —No. 6688. Where did she go to? — I do not know. 6689. Did you not take notice ? — They dis- aj)])eared from my observation. 6690. Tiirough the floor ? — There are a great number of roads just where they were. 6691. Were there many people in the street ? — Yes, a good many people in the street. 6692. And you saw her do this; did anybody else see it with you ?— -No. 1-46. 6693. I am asking you about the 3rd of March, the occasion when they kissed each other ; you have no doubt about that occasion? — No. 6694. You only saw that once.' — That is all. 669o. You did not mention that before the magistrates? — I mentioned about being outside the " Chance," if I remember right. 6696. Did you mention that they kissed each other? — No. 6697. You did not think it material, I sup- pose ? — No. 6698. Now, then, on the 9tli of March, I see you again describe her as the same person as mentioned on the Uth of February, the 3rd of March, and so on? — Yes. 6699. You met her with another short girl, did you ? — Yes. 6700. Do you know who that girl is ? — No. 6701. Have you ever seen that girl since to your knowledge ? — Not to take any particular notice of her. 6702. Then you have not followed her up yet ? — No. 6703. Do you know a man named Bates in the Artilery ?— No. 6704. On the 9th of March when you met her •with a short girl, and when they met the two Mr. JIopwoixl — continued, soldiers, how near did you get to them ? — I met them. 6705. Then did you follow them ? — Yes. 6706. At about what distance ? — About 30 or 40 yards. 6707. Then they were laughing .ind chaffing foi- 10 minutes and then they disapjjcared ? — Yes, after they left the public-house. 6708. Where did they disappear to? — That was in Adrian-street, but 1 could not tell where they went. 6709. AVas it not amidst the crowd ? — Yes. 6710. "Why did you not read that to us ? — I believe I did. 6711. You did not ? — "Disappeared from my observation." 6712. Is there not '• amidst the croivd? " — Yes. 6713. Then you have it? — Yes. 6714. Why did you not read that to us? '■Laughing and ehaffini:- : disappeared;" " amidst the crowd " is struck out, and tlie words '• from my observation," are put in ? — Yes. Chairman. 6715. When were those words struck out? — I do not know, unless it must be the time I put it down. Mr. Hopwood. 6716. Then you were a little uncertain of what happened? — No, I was not in the least. n717. Second thoughts you thought were the best ; you wrote down first, '"amidst the crowd,"' and then you faltered it to, " from my observa- tion "? — Yes, there were, as I say, a number of I)eople about there just then. 6718. Can you not help us as to when you amended your entries ? — It must have been at the time I put it down. 6719. But you have no recollection about it? — No, it must have been at the time I put it down. 6720. On the 21st of Marcli you say, " the same woman as mentioned," and you enumerate those other days ? — Yes. 6721. Again in compiuiy with a gunner of the Koyal Artillery ? — Yes. 6722. The two soldiers on the 9th of March were both gunners of the Ivoyal Artillery, were thev not, when vou met her with a short girl? — Ye.;. 6723. The times you speak of when you have seen her with these men, you say, liave been mostly at night ? — Yes. 6724. Have you on eacli occasion met her or seen her face ? — Yes. 6725. How long did it take to do that ; was it a mere passing look, or did you look well at them ? — 1 looked well at them. 6726. How had you time to look to see whether the soldier was an inch taller or an inch shorter in each instance ? — I took it from the height of the gii'l. The girl is very tall, and sometimes the .^oldier would be about on a level with her ; at another time he would be much taller. 6727. Do I understand that you took a glimpse of her in passing, and a glimpse of the soldier at the same moment? — Yes; I could not make a mistake SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 293 16 May 1882.] W. Mathews. [ Continued. Mr. Hopivood — continued, mistake in this person, because I was so well acquainted with her general appearance. 6728. But why could you not judge by their features, if you saw them ? — I should have done. I ought to have put their respective heights and complexions down at the time. 6729. Will you swear that you did not see her with the same man in more than one instance ? — I would not like to swear that the same man was not with the girl more than once ; I would be sorry to say that ; but sometimes they were not one and the same man. 6730. But you will not say that on other occa- sions that you have enumerated it was not the same man ; do you want to go back from that ? — I hardly understand your question. 6731. 1 understood you to say just now that you would hardly like to swear that it was not the same man on more than one of the occasions on which you saw her ? — I will say that the same man might have been with her more than once out of those occasions, because I sometimes saw a man of 5 ft. 9 in. or 5 ft. 10 in., and at another time about 5 ft. 7 in. 6732. Would you venture to swear that it has not been the same man more than twice ? — Yes, three times. One was a line-regiment man. 6733. You say you will not swear that it was not the same man that you saw her with on two of the occasions ; will you swear that it was not the same man that you saw her with on three of the occasions? — To the best of my judgment, it waf one and the same man each time. 6734. That is not an answer to my question ; will you swear that it was not the same man on three of the occasions ? — I should be very sorry to swear that it was the same man on each of the occasions. 6735. That is not my question ; will you swear that it was not the same man on three of the occasions ? — No, I would not. 6736. Now, J will take you still further ; will you swear that it was not the same man on four of the occasions ? — I have not got the description of the height of the men in my book, but, at the same time, I know that in several of the instances it was not one and the same man, in consequence of their heights and complexions. 6737. You say that you would not like to swear that it was not the same man on three of tlie occa- sions : would j'ou like to swear that it was not the same man on four of the occasions that you have described ? —I would not like to swear that it was the same man. 6738. You know that is not what I asked you. Would you like to swear that it was not the same man on four of the occasions ? — -I do not believe it was. 6739. Will you swear that it might not have been the same man on four of the occasions ? — To the best of my judgment and belief it was not the same man. 6740. But you will not swear it; do you admit that you cannot swear to it, positively ? — I would not like to swear positively that it was the same; I should be very son-y to tell a lie ; far from it. 6741. Now just hand me your book containing the entry of the 31st of March. " March 1882.— Southby was seen in company of a gunner." 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued. Why did you express it so ; why did you not say " I saw Southby ; "' had you no reason ? — No, no particular reason ; I did not study the gram- matical part when I put it. 6742. " Southby was seen," looks as if it was somebody else that told you ? — No, it was by me. Chairman. 6743. You say now that it was by you that on that occasion she was seen ? — By me. Mr. Hopwood. 6744. Why is March 1882 written over the word underneath? — I might have put it down In a hurry. 6745. What is written under it? — It is "April" underneath, but it was on the spur of the mo- ment, and I discovered that I was making a mis- take in the month. 6746. Do you remember having made the mis- take ; do you remember anything about it ? — No, not now. 6747. Then you can give us no reason. The book will speak for itself? — When I made the memorandum I might have put "April," and then discovered that I had put the wrong month. 6748. Now just look at thHt (handing the book again to the Witness). You will see that the figure " 3 " in the " 31 " is in a different character and pencilling, I think, to the " 1 " ? — ^It was all done at one and the same time. 6749. It may have been the 1st of April that you put down and then altered it to March '.' — It might look like that, but it was put down at the same time on this date, the 31st of March. 6750. You say that you do not remember about it, and your suggestion is that you may have written down " April" hastily? — Yes. 6751. Now go to the 14th April. There you begin with " I met Southby"? — Yes. 6752. You were asked about having seen her go up into the Malson Dieu Fields, I think? — Yes. 6753. Take the first soldier that you say she met : was he an artilleryman ? — He was an artilleryman. 6754. When j-ou say a gunner you mean an artilleryman, do you ? — Yes. 6755. You do not make a distinction there ?-- No. 6756. How near were they to the barracks when they parted?— I could not tell you the exact distance. 6757. Was it near or distant from it? — It might be, at a guess, 250 yards probably to the entrance gates. 6758. But you saw the gunner go into the barracks, did you not? — I saw him go towards the barracks, in the direction of the barracks. 6759. Do you say that they stood there some time near the bank ? — Yes. 6760. Is there no gaslight there? — There is a lamp; it might be from 80 to 100 yards from where they were standing. 6761. You will swear that there is not a gas- lamp nearer than that ? —To the best of my belief there is not. 6762. I understood you, in your examination- in-chief, when you were asked the question first, to say that it was dark ? — Yes. 3 6763. Did 294 MJNUTES OF KVIUENCE TAKEN BEFOKK T)IE 16 Mat/ i882.] W. Matukws. [^Lontiuufd. Mr. Hupwoud — continued. 6763. Did you tell us then that there was any gas lamp at all? — There are three gas lamps u|) Castle Hill. ri764. Do you mean us to understand that it was dark ? — It was a dark night on that par- ticular night. 6765. Have you a memorandum about its being a dark night, or that it was a dark place 'i — I can trust to my memory for that. 6766. Do you mean us to understand that it was dark, so that you could not see them? — Yes, I could only see simply the dark objects stand- ing together nn the side of the mail. 6767. And you could see a dark object at 80 or 100 yards distance ? — Yes. 6768. You saw them kiss one another there, did you? — Not at that place where they were standing. 6769. How far had they removed from where they were standing? — I should think about 20 yards. 6770. Before they kissed one another? — Yes. 6771. You have written down here, "They remained near the bank for about 10 minutes, and on parting kissed each other'"? — Yes; and that is when they moved from there. 6772. And you swear that they kissed one another when they moved from there? — Yes. 6773. Did she go with him nearer to the bar- racks, or away from them? — She did not go near -he barracks. 6774. Did they come towards the town, or the other wav ? — The soldier came a little towards the town, and then branched oft' to the bar- racks. 6775. And then she came down the liill ? — Yes. 6776. And fell in with another gunner? — Yes. 6777. You will swear that she had seen two? —Yes. 6778. No one was with you when you saw the first cme .' — Yes. 6779. Who?— The inspector. 6780 Then he saw both of them, did he ?— No, he saw the first one. 6781. And it was the first one you heard say to her tliat he would meet her the next night ? — Yes. 6782. Have you got a word about that in this book ? — Hav'n't I put it there I 6783. .\o, I think not? — Well, I remember the fact. 6784. But you have not it there? — No, it is not there. 6785. Did you not tell us a while ago, that Inspector Whitney saw her accost the second soldier, or saw her with the second soldier? — No. 6786. You spoke of a dark lane situated near New Park, at the top of the Maison Dieu Fields ; tow do you get to this dark lane ; from what street .' — You can get to it from several ways. 6787. Take the best or the worst, which you like ? — From St. James's-street, where she ac- costed the soldier ; she went along Ashen Tree- lane, ^Maison Dieu-road, up Godwin Hill, and up the Green Hill, and down this lane. 6788. Are there no gas lamps at all there ? — Mr. fJupwood — continued. Not down this bye lane, Lovedane, not that ever 1 have noticed. 678!i. What do you call "accosting"? — Meeting a man in the street and getting in front of him, stopping in front of him, and impeding his progress, and speaking to liira. 6790. Will von swear that she did that ?— Yes. 6791. Will you swear that she stopped a man? -Yes. 6792. In the road? — Yes; 1 was walking be- hind lier. 6793. When she was on the hill with the other soldier, you were lower down, nearer the town than she was, I suppose ? — A little. 6794. Had she passed you then? — I met her. 6795. And then you say as she came down she accosted a man ; how far from you ? — A mat- ter of 15 or 20 yards. 6796. And it was quite light then, I suppose ? —Yes. 6797. The night had become quite light then ? — It was well lighted up with lamps. 6798. And then she accosted the soldier? — Yes. 6799. Did anybody see this with you ' — No. 6800. Did vou mention this to the magistrates ? —Yes. 6801. That you followed her up a dark lane? —Yes. 6802. AVhen you saw her, and followed her aa you say up this lane, did you see what became of them ? — Yes. 6803. Where did they go to ?— They w'ent down the lane some little way, and they were down there some few minutes ; I waited on the Green Hill, and then went down this lane, and met them coining back ; that is all I saw of them. 6804. And they went on and you saw no more of them ? — No. 6805. You went to her place on the 17th of April, did you not ? — Yes. 6806. With Mr. Whitney, I think? — ^es. 6807. You knocked? — No, the inspector knocked. 6808. And you were invited in? — Yes. 6809. Why do you say that you were "invited in " ? — One of the women said " Come in, come in." 6810. Then you were invited in? — Yes. 6811. I thought you laid a stress upon it? — No. 6812. You know that the police have been charged with going in without invitation, do you not? — I have heard so. 6813. Therefore, you waited until you were invited ; am I to understand that ? — Yes. 6814. And the girl said, in answer to Mr. AA-'hitney, " For why: who is your author"? — Yes. 6815. You swear that she used the words "there are dozen of girls as bad as I am"? — Y'es. 6816. Have you heard those words often made use of by girls to you when you have made them come up, and they thought it was not fair ? — No. 6817. You have never heard them before? — Not to make the same remark. I liave heard girls SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEAf^ES ACTS. 295 16 May 1882.] W. Mathews. [ Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued, girls say sometimes, " Why don't you have so- and-so up ; they are as bad as I am." 6818. They do not say "dozens;" do they say "a lot of girls as bad as I am"? — I have heard them say, " Why don't you have so-and-so up ; they are as bad as I am." 6819. A dozen, do you mean? — No; they would not mention any particular number. 6820. Would they mention all the names ? — No. 6821. They would not mention the names? — They might make a remark and say, " Why don't you go to so-and-so ; there are plenty of girls there as bad as I am." 6822. Then it is pretty nearly a common form with the bad girls to say that, is it? — I have heard that remark. 6823. You did not hear her say, " I will come "? - I did. 6824. When ?— I heard her say, " I will come." 6825. When you were behind the door? — When the inspector spoke to her. 6826. Why did you not tell us that before ; Mr. Stillwell, the magistrates' clei'k, conducted the examination for the magistrates, did he not, and examined you both ? — 1 believe it was Mr. Stillwell. 6827. With regard to the 3rd of March, what do you say as to the time that you saw her ? — At 11.10 fj.m. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 6828. Have you any doubt at all as to the identity of this woman ? — No. 6829. You swear that?— Yes. 6830. Are these memoi'anda, to which you have referred in your evidence, rough notes taken at the time ? — Yes. 6831. Were those rough notes ever embodied in a more full and complete report to the police ? — Yes. 6832. And those are, I suppose, accessible, if it is necessary < — Yes. Mr. Stansfeld. 6833. Y"ou said that you followed Eliza Southby and a soldier up Castle Hill upon one occasion, and that they stood for a certain time ; how far did you say the gas lamp was from them where they stood?— I should say, as near as I judge now (I have not measured the distance ), from 80 to 100 yards. 6834. And you say that there are only three gas lamps on Castle Hill ? -I have only noticed three from the bottom of the steps that lead to the -Castle to the top of the stables. 6835. Are you prepared to swear that there are only three ?— I am not prepared to swear that there are only three. I have only noticed three. -^ 6836. But you are not prepared to say that there are not more? — No. 6837. What is the distance ?— I have not measured it. 6838. Can you give me no idea of the dis- tance ?— No, I could not; it is a good length. 6839. What do you mean by " a good length "? — I. should say 400 or 500 yards. ^ 6840. Were you examined upon this subject at Dover before the magistrates ? — Yes 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 6841. What did you say with reference to the distance of the lamp from where they stood ? — I do not remember that the question was asked me about the distance. 6842. Can you swear that the question was not asked ? — I do not remember that the question was asked me how far it was from the lamp- post to where they were standino. 6843. That may not have been the precise question ; but were you asked any question with reference to a gas lamp being near where they stood ? -No, I do not remember it. 6844. Are you prepared to swear that Mr. Stillwell did not put to you a question, in answer to which you stated that a gas lamp was near to where they stood ? — I do not remember making any statement to that effect. 6845. Are you prepared to swear that you did not? — I do not remember the question being asked me about what distance they were from the gas lamp. 6846. I ask you about your answer rather than the question ; did you not, in effect, in reply to Mr. Stillwell before the magistrates at Dover, say that a gas lamp was near where they stood ? — I really do not remember what was said about that. 6847. Will you undertake to swear that the gas lamp was 80 yards off? — No, 1 should be very sorry to do so, because I am simply going by my judgment. 6848. Are you a good judge of distances?— Yes. 6849. And j-ou undertake to say, that you have not noticed more than three lamps in a distance of 400 or 500 yards ? — Yes, that is so according to vaj judgment. 6850. I notice in your book that in your subsequent references to this young woman, who is supposed to be Eliza Southby, after 11th Feb- ruary you spoke of her as the same who was noticed on the 11th February ? — Yes. 6851. Why do you not refer to her as the same who was observed on the 9th February ? I do not know the i-eason why I did not describe her so ; but I was sure with the memorandum that I made, that it was one and the same person. 6852. You say that your memorandum book satisfies you, that at the time you made these entries, you are convinced that it was one and the same person whom you saw on the 11th February ? — Yes. 6853. But the memoi-andum will not satisfy you that it was one and the same person that you saw on the 9th February ; do you undertake to swear that it was the same girl whom vou saw on the 9th February, whom you saw on the Utk February, and the subsequent days that you have recorded in your note-book ?— Yes, to the best of my belief, it was one and the same person. 6854. Then why did you not, in these notes, refer to the girl as the same girl observed on the 11th February? — I do not know my reason. 6855. Are not these entries calculated to suggest to the mind of any one who reads them that you identify the girl by having seen her on the 11th February, and that you cannot identify her with the girl whom you saw on the 9th February ; t) 4 have 290 MINTTKS OF KVIDKNCF. TAKEN BEFOKK THE IC Mai/ 1882.] W. Mathews. \_Contiineeil. Mr. Stansfrld — continued. Iiave you any oxplanation to offer of that ? — No, nothing more than I know ; it was one and the .same pers^im. 6856. And you knew it then ? — To the best of my judgment. 6857. And yet, in your record, you always ilefine her as the same woman as you saw on February the 11th?— Yes. 6858. And after February the 9th you never refer back in your note book to February the flth as the occasion upon which you identified the girl ?— No. 6859. In spite of this, you arc prepared to Hwear that it was Eliza Southby that you saw on February the 9th : is that so ? — Yes, to the best of my belief. 6860. And you cannot offer us any explana- tion why the reference in your note book is always made to February the 11th, and not to February the 9th ? — No, 1 have no explanation to give. 6861. At what date did you come to ascertain that the name of this girl, whom you had seen on February the 11th, and subsequent dates, was Eliza Southby ? — It was from hearing some one speaking of her, telling me about her. 6862. From hearing whom speak of her? — I cannot say exactly who the person was that told me her name. 0863. Can you say who the jterson was who informed you that that was Eliza Southby? — No; I believe it was a policeman, but I would not like to swear that. 6864. When did you receive that information .' — It is down here. The 31st of March appears to be tlie first date that I have got her name down. 6865. You have got " Southby " down upon the 31st of March, but you have no note there that that is the same person to whom previous refer- ence is made on February the 11th, or February the 9th, or any previous day? — No, because I was so positive about the person that I did not think it worth my while to refer. 6866. However, that is the fact that for the first time that we find the name upon your note book ; there is no statement that that is the same girl who is referred to on previous occasions and dates; that is so? — Yes. 6867. Now, I must ask you, how you came to know the name of Eliza Southby, and that this girl whom you saw on these occasions was Eliza Southby. Endeavour to refresh your memory ; who aave you that information ? — It might have been a policeman on duty. 6868. I did not ask you who it might have been ; I ask who it was ? — I remember two of the prostitutes on the register mentioning her and speaking about her, and they said her name was Eliza Southby, or Southey. 6869. When was that ? — On the 28th of March. 6870. Have you got a note of it there ? — Yes. 6871. Just show it to me {the booh wa^ /landed to the RifjJit honourable Member) : " 28th March 1882. — i\lartha Cook and Southby, 1, Adrian- street ; at 3 they take their chances." AYhat does that mean ? — That is what the women coin- Mr. Stansfeld — continued. «f ; thev said that she took solilicrs What does " 3 " mean ? — No. 3. Wlio lives at No. 3?— Tiiis vouni; l)lained there. 6872. 6873. woman. 6874. I thought she lived at No. 1 ?— No, No. 3. 6875. The address that you have down is, No. 1 ? — That is how we got at it; she went to both houses. ^ 6876. This is on the 28th of March; does that mean that vou received that information on the 28th of March?— Yes. 6877. Why did you not tell me this before.' — I did not think it material. 6878. It is not your business to think what is material. I asked you how you got your know- ledge of this girl's name, and you said that you could not well remember, and that it might be from a policeman on duty ; it now turns out, as recorded in your book, that it is the iuformatiou of a registered prostitute ? — Yes. 6879. r\lartha Cook, a registered prostitute? — No, it is not to say that the woman is a prosti- tute because it is mentioned in that book. It appears to be a j'oung woman, a friend of this Southby's. The girls were complaining about these persons, and I put it down in the book, thinking that I would see for myself. 6880. Then Martha Cook is MOt the name of the registered prostitute who iulbrmed j'ou ? — No, I simply put it down there, and I thought I could judge for myself and see for myself. Chainnan, 6881. Judge what for yourself? — See whether it was true. 6882. Whether what was true? — The informa- tion that these people said. Mr. Stansfeld. 6883. The information being that which seems to be smeared out, "at 3 they take their chances; " I do not know whether the smear is intentional oi' not ? — I don't know ; it might have got dirty or wet. 6884. That was the information given to you by a registered prostitute, was it? — Yes. The women were frequently complaining about this girl taking soldiers to this house, and I put it down in the book, thinking that I would sec for myself whctiier they were correct or not. 6885. This is extremely valuable and interest- ino; information, because we have heard some- thing of this kind before. How many registered prostitutes complained ? — Two that live oppo- site. 6886. And they comidained that the soldiers went into No. 3 ? — Yes. 6887. And they complained to you that their business was interfered with ? — They .simply said that these women took soldiers into their house. 6888. AVhat you said just now was that they complained ; what do you mean by saying that these registered j)rostitutes complained ? — They said that we ought to look after tliese people that were continually having soldiers in their house. 6889. And they complained of that fact? — Yes, SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOTIS DISEASES ACTS. 297 16 Mmj 1882.] W. Mathews. \Continued. Mr. Stamfeld — continued. Yes, and in consequence of that I made that memorandum. 6890. What was the reason of their complaint ; what did it matter to them ; why did they com- plain? — I don't know. I suppose they thought that these women were leading an immoral life, and that they ought to have been treated the same as they were. 6891. Do you think they complained in the interests of morality ? — I cannot say. 6892. More likely they complained in the interest of their profession ? — That is very pos- sible. 6893. Are you in the habit of regarding as reliable such evidence as that ?— -No. 6894. You do not regard it as reliable, coming from such a class of persons, I take it ? — No. 6895. But besides that, what is there in that information that would have justified you in entertaining any suspicion about this girl, Eliza Southby "? — In consequence of having seen her before with different men. 6896. All that you hear is that soldiers are seen entering this house. No. 3 ; is that so ? — Yes. 6897. What inference describe her dress, but she was a full-faced young woman, and he said, " That is Southby " ?— Yes. 7142. Tills was about 10 minutes past 10? — Ten minutes past 10, soon after I got on duty. 7143. I dare say there were half-a-dozen other couples there ? — I did not see one more. 7144. I thought you told us at first that you could not say when you told him ? — I could not tell the date. 7145. Did you saj' it was pretty nearly the same night? — I believe it was. 7146. Did you say so to us here to-day? — Yes. 7147. What do you mean by "pretty nearly the same night "? — I did not know whether it was the same night or the night after. 7148. You do not know whether it was the same night or the next night, or some other night, that yoti told him ; is that so ? — I do not know ; I forget. 7149. Then, perhaps, you are in doubt when you did tell him ? — No, I am not. 7150. Will you swear it was in Ajjril? — Yes ; the early part of April, I know. 7151. What do you mean by the early part ; the 1st, or the 2nd, or the 10th?— It was about the first ))art of the month ; that is all I know. 7152. Do you meet him pretty frequently, Mathews?— No, not very often; only when I am on day duty. 7153. When you are off duty do you meet him? — No; I never hardly meet him then. 7154. Is he off duty sometimes ? — I believe he is. 7155. Do you meet him on these occasions at all?— Not till lately.' 7156. Lately; the last month or so ?— The last couiile of months, perhaps. 7157. He has been a friend of yours? — No friend ; I pass the time of day to him. 7158. I want to know whether he is a friend of yours? — No, he is not. 7159. You say you meet him off duty some- times ; SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 303 19 3Iay 1S82.J Mr. Fenn. \Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued, times ; you are off duty and he is off duty ? — Yes. 7160. You have had a driuk together 1 — No. 7161. Never a glass of ale? — Not always; I have had a glass of ale with him. 7162. What is the use of denying it ; there is no objection to your having a glass of ale ; I want to know whether you are a friend of his ? — No friends at all. 7163. You only have a glass of ale with him occasionally ? — -That is all. 7164. You did not report this case to your Serjeant, I suppose? — No. 7165. Is it your duty generally to report any- thing particular that you have observed ? — Not in that case. 7166. Here were two people on somebody else's property at a late hour in the night ; was not that a thing to report upon ? — -Yes. 7167. Was it not your duty to report upon that ? — Yes, I know it was my duty to report them on the premises ; they were doing no harm. 7168. It was your duty, and you did not? — No. Mr. Osborne Murjiiin. 7169. Was it your duty to report? — It was trespassing ; we do not take notice of anybody in such places as them. Mr. Hopwood. 7170. If people are on premises they do not belong to late at night, it is your duty to report it? — At any time. 7171. And you did not report it? — No, I did not. 7172. And you made no note of it? — It was not my place. 7173. It is your duty to make a note of any- thing you have to report .'' — Not in that case. 7174. I understand you to saj', it was your duty to report if you found people on premises where they ought not to be ; that is so, is it not ? —Yes. 7175. And these people were where they ought not to be ? — Yes. 7176. It was your duty to put that down in your note-book ? — We never do in such cases as that. 7177. Do you remember the case going before the magistrates ? — Not till it was over. 7178. Then Mathews had not been to you ? — No, only since that case ; not since the case has been tried at court ; that is all. 7179. I do not know what you mean to tell us ; do you mean that he has come, or that he has not come to you since the case was tried ? — Yes. 7180. Before the case was tried he did not come to you ? — No. 7181. What did he say to you when he first came to you about this? — He only wanted to know whether I recollected the night. 7182. Tell us what passed between you? — He asked me whether I recollected the night this occurred. 7183. What occurred; tell us what he said? — He came to me, and asked me whether I could 0.75. Air. Hopwood — continued, recollect the night I saw the girl, Soutliby, in Crundell's timber-yard. 7184. What did you say ?— I told him I could not recollect the night. 7185. Did he ask you more about it ? — He said, " Couldn't you try and recollect the ni<2ht "? I told him, no, I could not. 7186. If you found two people upon premises like that, was it your duty to leave them there ? — We never do take notice of people in such places as that. 7187. Is it your duty ?— No. 7188. It is not your duty to leave them there ? — No. 7189. Is it your duty to take them into custody ? — Not to take them into custody ; to take their names and addresses. 7190. And you did not?— No. 7191. When was it that Mathews came to you about this case, a week ago ? — It might be a week or fortnight. 7192. Just try and think ? — I do not know the day. 7193. You do not know whether it was a week or a fortnight ? — It might have been a week or a fortnight. 7194. Was it, or was it not ? — I do not know the day of the month. Chairmtm.'] Make an effort and try ; take time, and try to think whether it was a week or a fortnight. Mr. Hopwood. 7195. This day week would be Friday ; was it between this time and last Friday that he came to you ?— I could not just tell the date. 7196. Do you mean to say you cannot tell whether it was a week or a fortnight since he came ?- — It might be a week, or eight or nine days. 7197. Then it was between this and last Wed- nesday week? — I cannot say; somewhere about that. 7198. And it was with a view to coming here upon this case? — I suppose so. Mr. Osborne Morgan, 7199. Are you quite certain that the girl you saw in the timber-yard is the girl you saw here to-day ? — Yes ; I know her from speaking to her frequently. Dr. Farquharson. 7200. You know her well by sight ? — Yes. 7201. Had you seen her previously to that day? — I had seen her about an hour previously ; or half-an-hour, perhaps. 7202. You also recognised her on that occa- sion ? — Yes, she bade me good evening. 7203. Half-an-hour before you saw her in the timber-yard ? — Yes. 7204. You have no doubt the person you met half-an-hour before, and the person you saw in the timber-yard, v/ere one and the same person? — They were. Chairv^an. 7205. You say it is your duty to report these things to the Metropolitan Police ? — Yes. p p 4 7206. "Who 304 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEFORE THE !y May 1882.] Mr. Fenn, Continued. Chairmitn — continued. 7206. AVho told yon it was your duty ; by ■wlioni lias tlic duty been given to you ? — By tlio supcrinteuueut. 7207. Is it fjiven to you in writing or by word of moutli? — By word of mouth ; Mr. Whitney can ])rove that. 7208. Mr. Whitney is not your superinten- dent ? — No. 7209. Is it your superintendent that o,ive3 the order, by word of mouth, to help the Metrojjolitan Police by ijiving thcui inlonnation ? — Yes. 7210. Did you ever on any occasion when you were in company with Mathews both see this girl ; did you ever see her when you were in his company? — No. 7211. Can you say with certainty when it was that you made this statement about the pro- ceedings in the timber yard to Mathews ; was it Chairman — continued. on the same evening thai you saw the transaction occur? — I think it was on the same evening, I believe ; I could not sav whether it was. 7212. This is a thing that one would be rather sure of. AVhen you made the statenient to Mathews, had you a few minutes before (you can surely recollect) seen this girl having connection with an artilleryman? — Just Ijefore that. 7 21. '5. Therefore you now appear to be certain that it was on the same evening you saw the connection take place that you gave information to Mathews? — I believe it was. 7214. Arc you certain ? — Yes. 7215. And did you give Mathews no further description of the girl than to say that she was a girl with a round face? — She was tail, and she was with an artilleryman ; she was a tall full- faced o;irl. Mr. Hexry Whitney, re-called ; and further E.xamined. Mr. Hnpwood. 72 16. How long have you been engaged in this bn.*iness? — Two years last September. 7217. Was your first experience at Dover, or had you been somewhere else pi'cviously? — Dover was my first place under the Act. 7218. You have been all the time in Dover? — Yes. 7219. How many are there under you? — Two. 7220. ]\Iathews and Cogger? — Yes. 7221. How did you go about this new duty first; what was the first thing you set your- self to do ; to know all the women of the place, as far as you could? — I knew the women by their coming up for examination. 7222. When you first camo, then, your know- ledge as to the women would be derived from seeing them when they came up for examina- tion ? — Yes. 722.'). How did you proceed to get fresh women on the register? — It would be some little time before I should know the women that were on the register. 7224. You contented yourself with that in the first instance ? — Yes. 7225. As soon as you had mastered that, did you make it your business to find out what other women there were in Dover? — Yes. If I noticed a woman going about with different soldiers and she did not come up for examination. 7226. Was that your sole test of whether a woman ought to come up for examination, that she would be about with different soldiers? — If she was about with different soldiers 7227. You mean in the open day? — No, at 7228. Then she might be with soldiers in the day-time, and you would not take any notice ? — I would if 1 8a^\• her with one man in the day and with two or three different men at night. 7229. iSupjiosing a woman had a sweetheart among the soldiers, would you think it yon duty to Avatch her? — No. 7230. How would you know whether she had a sweetlu art or not ? — I may say there are scores of soldiers at Dover walking about with sweet- Mr. Hopwood — continued. hearts for months and months, and I should not think of speaking to them. 7231. You have first to learn whether they are sweethearts? — I do not ask whether they are sweethearts. 7232. Do not you ask anybody? — If I see a woman with a soldier frequently, I consider they would be keeping company together. I fre- quentlv sec a young girl with a particular soldier night after nigiit. >233. And' out late ?— And out late, and I should not take any notice of her, and, in fact, we have got women living with soldiers. 7234. Do you mean living with them and not married ? — Yes. 7235. You do not put those on the list? — No; so long as they keep to the one man. 7236. That is the code under the Contagious Diseases Act, that if they are living with one man you do not interfere with them ? — No. 7237. Then, it seems, you have a discretion ? — I should not call a woman a common prostitute if she was living with one man. 7238. I suppose there are cases in which you suspect a young woman of not being a sweetheart with soldiers; do not you inquire about her? — No. Chairman, 7239. You mean a young woman seen in the company of soldiers? — (Mr. Hnpwood.) Yes. — ( Witness.) In the cjnnpany of different soldiers, do you mean ? 7240. It might be, say, two or three : would that arouse your suspicions ? — No, I think not. 7241. Four? — Perhaps if it cnme to four it would. 7242. It is not possible for a woman to have four friends in the Army without being suspected of being a conmion prostitute ; is that what you mean ? — I do not say she would be a common prostitute. 7243. But you would begin to suspect her if she got as high as four? — She would require looking alter. 7244. Then SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 305 19 May 1882.] Mr. Whitney. \C,oniinued. Chairman — continued. 7244. Then you do look after women? — Cer- tainly. That is what I am there for. 7245. You s^j them ? — You may call me a sjiy if you like. I am a policeman. 7246. It is your disagreeable duty to watch women in this way ; to look after them ? — It is : that is what I am sent there for. 7247. Would you tell me what pains you take to put women on the register who go about with civilians at night ? — We have got women on the register who never speak to soldiers. 7248. Are they what you called voluntary submissions? — Some of them, I suppose. 7249. Do you know of anj- case which you have had to brina; before the magistrates ? — No. 7250. I suppose they are, as far as you know, voluntary submissions ? — I have only had occa- sion to bring two cases before the magistrates before this one. 7251. But your usual way, I suppose, is to go and leave a piece of paper like this {shoiuinii), and if they do not come, you summon them ? — My usual way is to go and tell them that they can come and voluntarily submit themselves, or go before a magistrate. 7252. Do you explain to them the advantages of so doing? — I tell tliem if they submit, of course they will not have to go before the magis- trates. 7253. Then you do explain that to them ? — Y^es. 7254. But if they do not submit, they will have to go before a magistrate ? — Y'es. 7255. Can you tell me anything in the Act of Parliament that justifies you even in saying that to them ? — I have a circular issued by the Com- missioner, giving me directions what to do. 7256. You have jour instructions from the authorities, but I ask you if there is anything in the Act of Parliament that warrrants you even in that ? — The Act of Parliament states that all common women are to be placed under the Act. 7257. But you have no right to speak to them ? — How am I to know whether they are willing to come up if I do not speak to them. 7258. You could serve a summons upon them, I suppose ? — Befoi-e speaking to them ? 7259. Y'es ; take this case : I see you sent uj) a report on the 20th April in these terms, headed, " Contagious Diseases Act, Dover District ? " then some numbers, " Metropolitan Police, Wool- wich Division, Special Report." Is yours the Woolwich Division ? — Yes, I am under superin- tendent Hives of Woolwich Dockyard. 72fi0. " Metropolitan PoHce, 20th April 1882,— I respectfully beg to submit the annexed appli- cation for Commissioner's authority to lay an information against Eliza Southey, of 3, Adrien- street, Dover." (That is the same as this girl Southby, I suppose.) " I beg to state that this woman has been leading an immoral life for the last month, and observation has been kept upon her. About 9.25, 14th instant, she went up Castle-hill with a soldier and came back alone. She accosted a soldier and went up a bye-lane with him. I spoke to her on the 17th inst. ; she admitted she had been with men, and said she would attend for examination on the 18th instant, whicli she failed to do." Now, I ask you what 0.75. Chairman — continued, warranty you had for telling your superiors this woman *' has been leading an immoral life for the last month " ? — From the reports received from the constables. 7261. Have you told us what you received from the constables ? — It is in the constable's evidence. 7262. Did you hear it all? — Y'es. 7263. Y'ou say upon that vou were justified in writing to your superiors that this woman '' has been leading an immoral life " ? — Y'es. 7264. Why did not you say, " I have been informed, or have information, which leads me to think so." Do you see the difference between stating that you have information, and positivelj' asserting to the head of the police that this woman has been leadins an immoral life ? — I am the re- sponsible officer at Dover. I am responsible for the Acts there. 7265. And you consider that you are justified on the evidence the constable has given in saying that this woman '' has been leading an immoral life for the last month '' ? — Yes. 7266. You mention that you spoke to her on the 17th instant, and she admitted she had been with men : tell me one word in the evidence that you have given which shows that she said an}-- thing of the kind ? — When I went to the woman and told her it became my duty to warn her for examination the followins- day, and she said there were dozens as bad as she was. 7267. And that, you say, justifies you in stating ? — No, I beg your pardon ; I have not done yet. 7268. Go on, if you please ? — Dozens as bad as she was, and I did not take any notice of them, but she had got a gentleman who would take the matter up for her- I said it was immaterial to me whom she had got: it was my duty to order her up for examination ; she could come if she liked, or she could go before the magistrate. Then she said, " Well, I will come." She says, " I have been with men, and I will come." 7269. Y'ou say she said, " I have been with men, and I will come?'' — '• I will come; when am 1 to come ; " I said, " To-moiTow." 7270. Will you point to your evidence where you said, " She said, ' I have been with men.' '* ^Yill you look at Question 6353, " Did she say any- tliing else? (^A.) I said, 'Well, you can please yourself; you can either come, or you can go before a magistrate ; it is immaterial to me ; but distinctly understand that I do not press you to come there. I am telling you that you can come, if you think proper, and sign a submission form.' " Question 6354 : '' Did you tender a submission form? (A.) I did not: she then said, ' I will come.' " Now, if it be true that she said " I have been with men," why did you not tell us so before? — That is true. 7271. Did you say so before the magistrates ? — I do not know ; i may have done so. 7272. What object had you in keeping it back ? — No object. 7273. Why did you keep it back ? — I do not know that I did keep it back. The girl admitted to me that she had been with men : that she had been doing wrong. 7274. Will you swear that ; tell us in what form she admitted that ? — In going with men ? Q Q 7275. That 3('o MINI II > i>l KVIUKNCK TAKKN BEFOKK THE 15) May 1S82.J Mr. Whitney. I Cdiitiimed ( 'hairmnn — continued, V275. That she said 80 expressly in words? — In words. 7276. She said so I — She made me understand it. 7277. I ask you why you did not tell us that when you were here before? — I was not asked the (jucstion. 7278. You are a police inspector, and that is your answer .'— Yes. 7279. Did voii say that het'ore the mairistrates ? — I do not know. 7280. Do not you believe you did not? — No, it is very likely I did, 1 think. 7281. Have you seen a report of what you said before the msigistrates ? — A newspaper re- port ? 7282. Yes? — That is not a truthtul report. 7283. Will you sweai- you said it there ? — No, I will not. 7284. And you knew the importance of it. The question was whether this woman was lead- ing an immoral life, and you say you will not swear that you informed the magistrates she admitted to you that she had been leading an immoral life .' — No. 7285 Do you remember when you stated here at the House that it was your duty to order her up. did she say, "For why? who is your author "? — Yes, 1 believe she did. 7286. I do not think you said so? — I believe she did ; I do not know whether it was " author," or whether she said, " Can yon prove it?" She matle some remark of that kind, I have no doubt Mr. Hopwooil.'] You will find that in Question 6518. Chairman.^ Was that also omitted from the original evidence of this witness ? Ml'. HopKood.] Yes: but he rather cor- rects that. He does not say she used that precise word ; but it was to that effect. IVitnesg.'] Words to that effect; and then I told her about the 14th, when I laid the information. 7287-8. Calling your attention to the fact that you remember she said she had a gentleman who would take it up for her, are you prepared to swear she said " I will come '' ? — Yes. 7289. In spite of her saying, " I have some one to ]irotect me '" ? — She did. 729(1. You recollect that Ford was there as well as she ? — She was. 7291. Do you remember your officer going back ? — Yes, I got outside, and looked back. 7292. And he went inside? — He went inside: I went on. 7 293. Did you leave him there and go on? — I went away. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 7294. Did you leave him there ? — Yes, I left him in the house. Mr. Hopwood. 7295. is there any difficulty about your getting legal assistance if it is wanted ? — No. If I had applied to the Commissioner through the superin- tendent he would have granted it, no doubt. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 7296. You nould have got it, as a matter of course ? — I tliink the case was a very dear one. Mr. Osborne Moujnn. 7297. You did not apply for any professional assistance ? — No. I did not apply for it. I may say, had I been in charge of a police station and this woman had been brought in by a constable for soliciting prostitution, on such evidence I should have considered myself in duty bound to pu.t her on the charge sheet and bring her before a magistrate. Mr. Hopwood. 7298. When did you first know this girl by name : whom did you get that from ? — 1 got her proper name on the 17th from her. 7299. On the 17th of April ?— Yes. 7300. Was that the first time you knew her name? — That was the first time I knew her proper name. 7301. W^hat do you mean by her pro{)er name ? — Eliza Southey ; we thought it was Soutl.by. 7302. AMien did you first hear her called Soutliby? — I do not know ; sometime in March. 7.303. Whom did you get that from ; was that from Mathews ? — From Mathews ; yes. 7304. I suppose you get information sometimes from the prostitutes on the register .' — They may often talk about women ; but we do not act upon their information. 7305. You did not, in this instance, iu the least ? — No. 7306. You were here, and you heard that Mathews got his information from ])rostitutes ? — ^Vhatever evidence was given was given by what was seen by the police : not what they were told. 7307. But what is told causes suspicion ? — Yes ; but we should not act upon what they say. 7308. But you watch ?— Yes. 7309. Then you do act upon what they say : — No ; I can say we do not act upon what they say. Chairman. 7310. What do you mean by " act?"' — For instance, I have heard women come there and sav, ■' I saw So-and-so,'" :i woman with So-and-.so, at such-and-such a place. If I were to act upon that, I should say it was very wrong. 31 r. Huptvood. 7311. Do you mean by " acting," applying for a summons? — Yes. 7312. I call it acting if you watch. You do watch upon the statements of these prostitutes ? — Undoubtedly. 7313. You knew the kind of statements, did you not, that Mathews had got from these prosti- tutes? — No. 7314. Did not he communicate it to you? — No. 7315. Not a bit? — No; I have heard women speak of it in the examination room when they have gone down. Chairman. 731 6. Speak of this particular case? — Oh, yes. Mr. Hopwood. 7317. I suppose, from your knowledge, you think that the general statements of jirostitutes are very lettle reliable ? — Very little, I think. 7318. But SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 307 19 May 1882.] Mr. Whitney. \_Continuea. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 7318. But if they tell you that some girl is receiving people, and so on, do you think it right then to watch the girl? — -Yes, and to see for ourselves. 7319. You do no hai'm by watching decent girls, do you, to your mind ? — I am not aware that we have watched decent girls. 7320. But you must first ascertain whether she is a decent girl before you can be sure she is not : watching means that, does it not ? — "Watch- ing means to watch the girl to see whether she goes with different men. 7321. You have sometimes found out that the girl is a respectable girl? — Undoubtedly. 7322. And yet you have done her the honour of watching her ? — Yes, but not spoken to her. 7323. How many times may that have oc- curred ? — Not very often ; very seldom. 7324. Could you give us a sort of per-centage ? — No ; I could not. 7325. In what way has this delicate attention of watching been extended towards a respectable girl ; do you follow them at 50 or 60 yards dis- tance ?- We do not follow them at all. If we see them mth any one we take a note of it ; but if we see a woman coming along the street we should not turn round and follow her. 732G. I do not suppose you would follow her so obviously as that? — No. 7327. But you do it prudently, I suppose, and with the best means of escaping observation on your own part ? — Yes. 7328. In fact, you watch them? — Watch them. 7329. How many may you happen to have on the register at present at Dover ? — Thirty-two. 7330. And how many hundreds of women do YOU suppose there are in Dover ? — I cannot tell. 7331. But you know something about the population, do you not ? — I cannot tell how many women there are in Dover. 7332. I do not ask how many; I only want an approximate idea. Are there" hundreds? — Un- doubtedly. 7333. Are there thousands ? — I daresay there are. 7334. What is your judgment about the 32 on the register ; are they all the prostitutes in Dover? — No ; I do not suppose they are. 7335. Not by many hundreds ? — I could not say about many hundreds ; they are the only common prostitutes that I am aware of. 7336. What is your distinction ? — Women that walk the streets and solicit prostitution openly. There is no doubt there is clandestine prostitu- tion at Dover the same as other places. 7337. And plenty of it ? — I have no doubt of it : but I cannot speak to facts. 7338. There are many that you know by dress that arc not on the register ? — I should not like to go by a woman's dress ; I should not like to call a woman a prostitute because she had a par- ticular dress on. 7339. I want just to take you to the two or three instances in which you say you saw these women. I think you say that from February to April, or about that time^ you saw her with an artilleryman walking along Town Wall-street ? — 0.75." Mr. Hopwood — continued. Walking along Snargate-street towards Town Wall-street. 7340. And then you met Mathews, and you gave him instructions ? — Yes. 7341. Was that the first time you gave him instructions about her? — No. 7342. I think you said you saw her once before the 14th of April in Market-street ; could you not give the date ? — In March. 7343. In Market-square ?--Yes. 7344. It was after dark ? — Yes. 7345. And you think, but you will not swear, it was a man of a line regiment ? — Yes. 7346. Are those the only instances that you gave us ? — That is the only "time I have seen her with soldiers, or with men ; I have seen the girl about the streets. 7347. As you have hundreds of other women ? - — Oh, yes. 7348. I think i understood you to say you went first to No. 1, Adrian-street, on the 17th of April, when you went to look for her ? — Yes. 7349. Whom did you find there ; who lived there ? — I do not knou who lived there. I asked for Southey, and I was asked in. Then I asked for this tall young woman ; I did not know her name then ; Southby, I asked for. 7350. Do you mean that you did not know her name, or that you asked for Southby ? — I asked for Southby. 7351. Anybody would know who you meant ? — I asked for Eliza Southby. 7352. Whom did you see at No. I ? — Two women. 7353. Do you know their names ?— No. 7354. Then you went to No. 3 ? — They told me she lived at No. 3, and I went to No. 3. Dr. Farquharsun. 7355. Is a respectable girl likely to appear about under circumstances which would suggest watching to your mind? — Yes. 7356. A respectable girl ? — ^es. 7357. Is it likely that a respectable girl would appear under circumstances which would render it necessary for you to watch her? — No, certainly not. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 7358. I should like to clear up this question of voluntary- submissions. WiU you kindly tell the Committee the circumstance? under which in ordinary- cases you tender voluntary submission? — The women if they come to the examination house, sign at the house. 7359. Let us suppose this case : you are made aware of the movements of a particular woman that induces you to believe that she ought to be placed on the register ; you go to her and you communicate these facts "to her, and then you say, as I understand it, " You have the alternative either of voluntary submission or of going before the magistrate " ? — That is so. 7360. When you have made that communica- tion to the woman, when do you ask her to sign the voluntary submission ?-^ When they attend the examination house. 7361. When they come up to the examination room? — Yes. Q Q 2 , 7362. Taking- 308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 19 May 1882.] Mr. Whitney. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Beminch — continued. 7362. Taking the particular case which is now before the Committee, in Question 6354 of your evidence, you are asked : " Q. Did you tender a submission form ? " and you said, " A. I did not." I understand you do not tender a sub- mission form ? — Certainly not. 73G3. Is it a fact that the submission ibrm would be tendered on the first attendance of Eliza Southby, if she had attended at the exami- nation house? — Yes. 7364. Is it your practice to tender the sub- mission form to the women when they attend at the examination house ? — Yes. 7365. And it is not the practice to tender it in their own houses when you visit them, and make any communication to them ? — No. 7366. Do you ever threaten women when they decline to sign the submission form with being brought before the magistrate ? — No. 7367. You never use any action, or anything ? — I never threaten them ; you cannot call it threatening ; I merely point out to them that if they do not sign the submission form they will be taken before the magistrate ; I do not think that can be called a threat. 7368. Is it your practice to speak to them in as kind terms as you can command? — I do. 7369. Did Eliza Soutliby tell you who the gentleman was that would take the case up for her ? — No ; l)Ut I had a very good idea of who he was. 7370. Do you know who he was? — I cannot say I know, but I have a very good idea of who he was. 7371. With regard to the information from prostitutes; supposing any registered prostitutes tell you thai So-and-so, naming some woman, is practising clandestine prostitution, is it part of your duty to attend to that information ? — Yes, it would be. 7372. If you did not attend to it, would it be a neglect of your duty ? — It would. 7373. Just as in an ordinary case, is not a police officer bound to attend to any information he receives with regard to any matter partaking of an offence ? — Exactly. 7374. The two cases stand, then, on precisely the same basis ? — Precisely the same. Mr. Oshcrne Morgan. 7375. You said that you saw this girl on one occasion in the month of March, between the 1 1th of February and the 14th of April ; was that on the 31.st of March ? — I believe it was. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 7376. Was the paper that was left by the con- stable Mathews, with tlie address of the examina- tion house with the defendant Eliza Southby, left for her information ? — For her own infor- mation ; she said she did not know where the place was. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 7377. Are you quite positive that in the course of the conversation you had with this girl on the 17th of April, she admitted that she had been with men ? — Quite positive. 7378. In your presence and hearing ? — In my presence. Cliairmaii. 7379. You received some information from con- stable Mathews about this girl ? — Yes. 73S^O. Did you receive information about lier from anybody else besides constable Mathews? — And Cogger. 73^]. .Mathews, I understand from you, did not tell you what statements were made to him by the two registered prostitutes ? — No. 7382. Did Mathews tell you anything about what information was given him by Fenn ? — Yes. 7383. When did he tell you that?— I could not say exactly the day ; it may have been a day or two after the occurrence. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 7384. Could you give us the date? — I could not. 7385. It was before the hearing before the magistrates ? — Yes. (Viairman. 7386. Now tell me what Mathews told you ? — He told me that Fenn had seen Southby in Crundell's timber yard having connection with a soldier. 7387. Did he give you any details as to the , time at which he got this information from Fenn? — I Jo not know that he tcild me that; but I think it is in my memorandum book. 7388. Did you get any information from any other person al)out this girl's conduct ? — Not before the summons. 7389. Did you get any information before the hearing from any of them ? — No ; I may explain to yon why this constable was not called. 7390. Whatconstable?— The Dover constable, at the hearing of the summons. There is a very o-reat feelintr among some members at Dover who have some authority over this man, and he begged the constable not to make it known ; and I may also say that I have seen the superinten- dent of police at Dover, and he has told me him- self 7301. I think we must stay there. Do you mean the superintendent of the local police ? — Yes. 7392. You had better say nothing about that. You had no direct communication with Fenn about it ? — No. Mr. Ilopwood. 7393. Did not you conceive it your duty to go and see Fenn .' — No. 7394. You did not ? — No. 7395. You made no effort yourself to see the superintendent or anybody? — I did not, until — — 7396. Until this last week ?— It is more than a week ago. 7397. Eight days? — I should think about a fortnight ago. 7398. You had no difficulty in getting Fenn to come here ? — He had to be subpoenaed. 7399. He would get an order from the house ? — The superintendent would not give him per- mission to come ; I asked the superintendent, and he would not allow him to come. 7400. Then SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 309 19 May 1882.] Mr. Whitney. Continued. Mr. Hopwood — contintaed. 7400. Then there was an order of the house, and the superintendent allowed him to come ? — Yes. 7401. You have no memorandum as to when it was that Mathews told you that Fenn had told him that someone else had told him that he had seen something ? — No. 7402. Did you go and ask that Fenn might be allowed to attend before the magistrates ? — No, I did not. Chairman. 7403. Having asked him that in cross-exami- nation, if he wishes to give any explanation he may do so ? — My reason for not going to ask the superintendent to allow the constable to attend before the magistrate was that it was at the ex- press desire of the constable that he should not have anything to do with it; he was afraid of getting himself into trouble. Mr. Hopwood. 7404. Do you mean to say that is your reason for not going and asking for the presence of Fenn to appear in a court of justice ? — Yes. 7405. You tell me deliberately, as a police inspector, that you are restrained by the feeling that somebody else may have ? — That is so. 7406. You knew you had a perfect right to have Fenn there ? — Yes. 7407. You could have subpojnaed him ? — Yes. 7408. You tell this Committee your sole reason was that you believed the superintendent was averse to his men having anything to do with this matter ? — 1 did not say that ; I said nothing of the kind. 7409. Then the constable said this to you ? — No, he did not say it to me. 7410. Did he say it to Mathews ? — Yes. 7411. Then the constable was willing to tell Mathews, but was unwilling to come into court and state his evidence ? — That is it. 7412. That is your reason ? — Yes. Chairman. 7413. Hewas afraid of getting into trouble? Mr. Hopicnod. 7414. Getting into trouble for what? — I have stated that there are people at Dover who have got authority over this man, and that they would get him into serious trouble, if they possibly could, if they knew he had anything to do with the Contagious Diseases Acts. 7415. Whom do you mean? — I mean Mr. Rees. 7416. Is Mr. Rees a magistrate ? — He is. 7417. Are there many other magistrates in Dover? — Many others. 7418. Are there some in favour of the Acts? — I have no doubt there are. 7419. And Mr. Rees is against them? — Yes. 7420. And you tell me your reason for not calling this man was, that the man feared he might get into trouble because Mr. Rees is not in favour of the Acts ? — Yes. 7421. Do you mean to tell me you did not choose to call this man because he himself feared something at the hands of his superiors ? — Yes. 7422. You mean that either you impute, or he 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued, imputes, to some, that if he told the truth he would come to grief for it? — Come to grief. 7423. You mean that ?— Yes. 7424. Do you mean it to be inferred that one magistrate out of many could do that?— I did not say one magistrate. 7425. You nientioned Mr. Rees ?— I did. 7426. You mean not to impute it to him ? — There may be others as well as he, for aught I know. 7427. Why did you call him, to-day, then? — I did not call him. 7428. This man, Fenn ?— No. 7429. You gave his name? — Yes; I got a report sent up here by the superintendent. 7430. Was not the inquiry before the magis- trates as important as this inquiry for this poor- woman ? — Quite so ; I considered there was sufficient evidence. 7431. Your statement to us to-day was that you did not call this man on that occasion, be- cause of his own fear ? — Yes. 7432. And, to-day, you have called him with- out respect to his own fear ; you have given his name in as a witness. You know that Mathews went to him for the information, do not you ? — No ; according to the constable's evidence he went to Mathews. 7433. You are talking of different things. You heard what Mathews said : that he went to the man for the information about a week or 10 days ago; you heard that, did not you? — No ; I cannot say I did. 7434. Not at this table ? — I do not hardly un- derstand your question. 7435. I will put it again. Mathews has told us that he went to Fenn, he will not say how long ago ; it may be eight or 1 days ago ; to ask him ? — Yes ; I believe I did hear that. Mr. Hopwood.'\ I am not sure whether lie said he went lo Fenn, or Fenn came to him. Fenn came to him, I think. Chairman-I Fenn swore a few minutes ago that they did meet ; but there is no evidence from Mathews ? Mr. Hopwood. 7436. I am speaking as to Fenn. Did you hear Fenn say that be had seen Mathews, or that Mathews had come to him, within this week or 10 days, about this matter? — I did. 7437. And he gave the information ? — Yes. 7438. Was he afraid then ? — No, I do not suppose he was. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, 7439. Are you aware that a meeting was held, in Dover on Friday last, on the subject of these Acts ? —Friday week. 7440. Are you aware that Mr. Rees was in the chair ? — Yes ; I believe he was. 7441. Have you read the report of the speeck he made on that occasion ? — Yes. Mr. Hopwood.l I submit this is out ai' order. Mr. Hentiiick.] I am going to call the attention of the witness to a statement fey Mr. Rees, affecting the performance of his duty, and to ask if it is true. Q Q 3 Mr. 310 llINtTK> OF FVIDENCE TAKKN BFKOUK THV 19 May 1882. Mr. Whitnev. \_Continued. Mr. Hopwood.^ We liave no evidence here a.< to the correctness; of the report ; if this witness iiiid been present and heard Mr. Rees say it, it would have been different. Mr. Caveudiih Beiitinck.'j Assuming tliat somebody said it '. Mr. Hopivood.^ Then it is irrelevant. Chairman.] It is not irrelevant, because the general administration of these Acts by this gentleman and his inferiors is relevant ; tlierefore any question you like to put about tliat, can be put. Mr. Cavendish Bvntiuck. 7442. Assuminll. But YOU say you have been up us hi^^h as Castle-hill with Bates? — The steps. 71U2 And Martha Cook? — Yes. 7iH3 Wa^ Martha Cook with anyhoiiy?- -No. 7!tl4. The entry goes on thus: " Southby walked back as far as St. James' s-street, when she aceosted another i^unner Royal Artillery, and after a short consultation proceeded to a dark lane situated near the new park at the top ol the Maison Dicii Fields, thev being there at 10.20 p.m. — No. 7915. Is it true that you walked back as far as St. James's-street and accosted another gunner ? — It is not. 7916. Is it true that after a .short consultation you proceeded to a dark lane i — No. 7917. Situated near the New Park, do you know the name that they s])eak of at the top of Maisiin Dieu Fields .'—I know Godwin-road, but that is ail lighted up with gas. 7918. It is described as a dark lane ? — It is not. 7919. Do you know Maison Dieu Fields? — No. 7920. Vou do not know it by that name? — No. 7921. Perhaps it is my jironunciatiou ? — I know Maison Uieu-road, but not Maison Dieu Fields. 7922. Let me ask you very distinctly as to this: is there any truth in the statement, that you accosted another gunner, and that you pro- ceeded to a dark lane ; is there any truth in that statement ?— No. 7923. What is Martha Cook? — She goes out to work. 7924. She keeps herself by her work? — Yes. 7925 Is she, as far as you know, a respectable girl ? — Yes, she is. 7926. She gets her living by her own in- dustry .' — Yes. 7927. By the work of her hands? — Yes. 7928. Now, I want to take you to what the officer said ; do you know police-constable Fenn ? -Yes. 7929. Have vou known him by sight belbre this?— Yes. 7930. You heard what he said about Crundel's timber-yard .' — Yes, I did. 793l! Is that true? — It is utterly false. 7932. Then do I understand you to say, it is false to say that you were in company with a man misctmducting yourself I — Yes, it is false. 7933. In Crundel's timber-yard ? — Yes : I know not where Crundel's yard is. 7934. You do not know where it is?— 1 do not. 7935. Do you know Charlton jiarish ? — Yes. 7936. Do you know Temple-street ? — No. 7937. How far is Charlton parish from Adrien- street, where you live ? — I cannot tell you ; about a mile, or a mile-and-a-half. 7938. Then if he saw anybody in that yard, I understand vou to swear he did not see you ? — Yes. 7939. And that he is mistaken as to that ? — He is mistaken. M r. fJo/iwuod — continued. 7940. Have you been with a soldier, oi- any- body else, under such cirminstances, in ;i timber vard ? — No. 7941. Or at night?— No. 7942. He says he came within a few yards of you r --I do not know anything at all about it. '943. There are some witnesses here, are there not, for you? — Yes. 7944. Mrs. Ford, and some others? — Yes. 7945. Is Bates here?~Ye.s. 7946. As I understand it, the oidy man you have walked with is Bates, e.vcepr when you have met a friend or two in the street in the day-time? — Yes, in Snargate-street. 7947. You have spoken to them as you would to any other friend that yon might meet? — Yes 7948. Were you before the inimistrates .' — No. 7949. You declined to attend?— Yes. 79.50. You were represented by counsel before the magistrates? — Yes. Mr. O.shonie Moryaii. 7951. You state you were in tiie Dover bar- racks irom half-past two till five on Christmas Day •; is that so ? — Yes. 7952. It would be nearly dark at that time, I suppose ? — Yes. 7953. Did not it strike you that it was rather an unusual thing lor a young wonnm to go to the barracks at such an hour and for so long a time ? — Not at all unusual; anybody is allowed u]) there after two o'clock. 7954. When Sergeant Bennell said it was not allowed, he said what was not true? — I never saw Sergeant Bennell after wc entered tiie door; his room is downstairs. 7955. You heard him say that women are not allowed in the barrack-room, is that not true .' — Not true : anybody is allowed after two o'clock ; the place is thrown open after two o'clock. 7956. Then after two o'clock any woman who ])leases may go in? — Yes: anybody that has friends, or anybody that likes. 7957. May go into the barracks, and remain there as long as she likes? — Not after sunset; what they call sunset. 7958. Five o'clock on Christmas Day would be after sunsei ? — Five o'clock we come down. 7959. ^^ou say in going to the barracks, and remaining there from hali'-past two to five o'clock, you were only doing what was perfectlj- usual, and what nobody had a right to preveni ? — Yes. 7960. And Sergeant Bennell, when he said he had orders to turn out any woman he found in the barracks, was saying what was not true? — Ncit true. 7961. Two and a half hours is rather a long time to remain in the barracks : were you drink- ing? — No: .sitting there by the fire talking. 7962. How many men were there in the room ? — There might have been a dozen. I caimotsay. 7963. You did not know them all ? — No. 7964. Did you talk to them all (—One or two, that was all. 7965. But the only other woman that was there was Martha Cook? — Yes. 7966. You spoke of having been upon two occasions -with Bate.?, the young man with whom you SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 323 23 May 1882.] Elizabf^th J. Southey. [_C On tinned. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. you kept company, at a music hall and theatre, or music hall assembly '^ — Yes. 7967. Do you often go to music halls or theatres ?— No. 7968. Have you ever been except upon those two occasions ? — I have been on two occasions in the plate in the Market-squai'e ; once by myself, once with Martha Cook. 7969. That is,, besides the time you said you went to this place in Snargate-stret-t ? — Yes. 7970. Those are all the times? — Yes. 7971. What goes on in these music halls? — Singing. 7972. Dancing?— Yes. 7973. You say that since you have been in Dover you have only been inside these music halls twice with Bates and twice besides ? — Once with Bates. 7974. Three times altogether? — Yes. 7975. Once with Bates, once by yourself, and once with Martha Cook? — Yes. 7976. No one else on that occasion? — No, 7977. At these places singing and dancing are going on ? — Yes. 7978. Is Bates a bombardier? — No. 7979. Do you happen to know whether he has a good-conduct stripe ? — Yes. 7980. When you said you must go and see somebody about it whom did you mean ? — I thought I had better go and see somebody. 7981. You did not say anybody in particular '. -No. 7982. Are you quite sure you have told us the whole of the conversation that went on? — Yes. 7983. You are sure you have told us the whole of the conversation that went on between you and Mr. Whitney and between you nnd Mathews? — Yes, all I can think of, for I can tell you I was , so confused at the time I hardly knew what I did say. 7984. You would hardly, under those circum- stances, like to swear that yoTi have told us exactly what took place ? — I have told you pretty well all that took place that I can think of. 7985. But there might have been other things ? — Mrs. Ford was there. 7986. I only wanted to know whether you can say now that what you have told us was the whole of what took place on that occasion ? — Yes. 7987. You said just now you were so confused that you could not remember exactly what took place? — All I have said is what I can remember. Mr- Cavendish Bentinck. 7988. Is your mother alive? — Yes. 7989. Where is she living? — At Worthington- lane. 7990. Is that at Dover? — Yes. 7991. Why don't you live with her? — I svent to live ; to do for my invalid aunt. 7992. Have you seen vour mother lately ?■ — No. 7993. Are jou on good terras with her? — Yes. 7994. How long is it since you have seen her? — I saw her the night before I left Dover. 7995. Do j^ousee her constantly when you are in Dover ? — Yes. 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck— contmnei. 7996. You earn your livelihood bv going out to work? — By going out to work. 7997. What is the nature of your work ? — Sometimes, cleaning: sometimes, " wa,shing ; all depends what I was'fetched away to do. 7998. How long have you known Bates? — Four montlis. 7999. Have you kept company with huu for four months? — Yes. SOOO. Will you explain what you mean by keeping company ? — Going out with him. 8001. Are you engaged to marry him? — Ye^. 8002. Is Bates the only man you have kept companj' with ? — Yes. 8003. You never kept company with anybody before ?— I kept company with a cousin of mine, but he is dead. 8004. Was he a soldier ?— No. 8005. How long has he been dead ? — Two years. 8006. Since he died, you have kept company with no one except Bates ? — No. 8007. What barracks is Bates now stationed at ? — At the Dover Castle. 8008. Was he in Dover Castle on the 14th April ? — He has been there all the time he has been in Dover. 8009. I should just like to take you to the 17th of April, when the police officers called at Mrs. Ford's and saw you ; when you were re- C;[uested to attend the exnmination, I understand you to say that you did not tell them that you had got a gentleman who would take that matter up for you ? — No. 8010. What was the expression you did use ? — I told him I uould go and see somebody else about it. 8011. Did you see somebody else? — Yes. 8012. Whom did you see ? — .Vlr. Rees. 8013. What did you say to Mr. Rees? — I saw Mrs. Rees : Mr. Rees was not at home. She told me to call again in the afternoon at three o'clock, and 1 would see him then. 8014. Was that the next day .' — The same day; the Tuesday that I was to appear at this place. 8015. The day after you had been visited by the police ? — Yes. 8016. Did you call that day ? — Yes. 8017. And did you see Mr. Rees ? — Yes. 8018. What did he say to you? — He told me I was not to take any notice of the paper what- ever ; if they came to me again I would tell them to go. and if they brought me a summons I was to take it to him at once. 8019. Did you take the summons to him? — I did. 8020. We have been told that the summons was thrown out into the street? — I was not there. 8021. You took the summons to Mr. Rees? — I took the summons to Mr, Rees. 8022. What did Mr. Rees say to you then ?— He took the paper from me and sent it ; I do not know what he done with it afterwards. 8023. You know nothing more of the proceed- ings that were taken upon the summons?— No. 8024. Were you asked to come to the court ? —No. 8025. Did he tell you not to take any notice of s s 2 it? 324 MIMTES OF KVIDENfE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 23 May 1882.] Elizabeth J. SouTHEV. \^C(mtinued. Mr. Cavendish Bentbirlt — continued. It? — Yes ; that it was not a legal notice, that lirst jia]ier they left ine. 802G. But I am now sjieaking of the summons ; tell us what you know about the summons to go before the magistrates, whicli was servcil by the police at Adrian-street ? — I do not knc)W : I was not at home when the summons was brought. I was out. but I was fetched : tliey told me there had been a paper brought for me, which they believed to be a summons. 8027. Did you see that pajjcr ?— After I got home. 8028. Did you take that paper ? — Yes. 8029. What did you do with it?— Took it to Mr. Rees. 8030. Himself?— Himself. 8031. When you gave that to Mr. Rees, what did he say to you? — He said, " You stop a minute; it will be all right." And I do not know, but I think he put it into a paper and sent it away. 8032. Did you never see the summons again afterwards ? — No. 8033. Did you ever hear anything of it after- wards? — I heard Friday's court had been about it. 8034. To the best of your knowledge and behef, I suppose Mr. Refes appeared at the court for you ? — Y'es. 8035. Were you called ujion to pay any of the expenses of the defence on the summons? — No. 8036. Are you aware that counsel was em- ployed on that occasion ? — Yes. 8037. Do you know who paid the counsel ? — No, I do not. 8038. Y'ou never heard who paid the counsel? —No. 8039. Cannot you guess who paid him ? — No ; I do not know who j)aid him. 8040. You do not know whether it was Mr. Rees who paid the counsel or whether it was some society who paid the counsel ? — No. 8041. Nobody has ever told you ? — No. 8042. Who told you the summons had been dismissed ? — I .'iaw it in the paper. 8043. Did you hear of nothing until you saw the paper ? — No. 8044. Do you know if Mr. Rees sat as a magis- trate on the bench on that occasion ? — No, I do not know. Chairman. 8045. When did you see the paper announcing that the summons was dismissed ; was it the day after? — On the Monday, I believe, the paper came. j\lr. Jiopwnod. 8046. The court was on Friday ? — Y'es. Mr. Cavendish Hentinck. 8047. Y'^ou have never been called upon to pay any portion of the expense of the defence of that summons ? — No. 8048. With regard to your visit to the barrack- room at Christmas last, are you aware that Ser- geant Bennell, in answer to a question addressed to him by a member of this Committee, said (Q. 7543), " Is it customary for a woman to go into the barrack-room and other quarters? {A.) No. (Q.) Is not that an offence against the regu- Mr. Cavendish Bentinch — continued, lations of the service? (A.) Y'cs; I do not know the man who took them in." Mr. Osbvnie ■Morgan.'] The regulations of the service could be produced about that. Mr. Cavendish lienlinck. 8049. Who was the soldier who took you in there ? — There was no soldier took me in there. 8t>50. AVho took you in ? — I went in with my cousin and Martha Cook. ^Ir. Osborne Movijan. 8051. Is your cousin a soldier ? — He has been a soldier ; he has done his time. Mr. Hopwood.l It was Crump. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 8052. Has Crump been a soldier ? — Yes. 8053. Whom did you go in to see ? — A man of the name of Breunan. 8054. Do you remember Sergeant Bennell asking you to quit the barracks ? — He never said anything of the sort. 8055. After notice was taken of your being in the barrack-room, did you leave directly ? — We had not any notice at all : we left when we were ready to come away. There was nothing |.'assed between us. 8056. HavTe you any recollection of being directed to leave the room ? — No ; nobody come while we were there. There was nothing passed. Chairman. 8057. Do you remember that you told us that you asked the police inspector or constable what days you were to attend ? — Y'es. 5058. Why did you ask that question ? — Be- cause I thought if I were to attend, whether I was to attend the days that I were not at work. 5059. But when you asked that question had you it in your mind that you would attend ? — No. 8060. How do you know that it is customaiy to allow girls and women to go into a barrack- room at Dover ? — Because this young man, this Brennan, that I went to see, he said we could come, it was all right, after two o'clock the barracks is thrown open. 8061. Who told you that; Crump?— No; Brennan. 8062. When did Brennan tell you that ?— On several occasions if he has asked us to come up. He is a married man. His wife has been lodging with Mrs. Dyer, one of my witnesses. 8063. And he told. you on several occasions you might go ? — Y'es. 8064. Had you been there before ? — No. 8065. Have you been there since ? — No. 8066. But he had told you that you might go before ? — Yes. 8067. You told us that you had not walked out with other soldiers besides Bates : I suppose what you mean by walking out is keeping com- pany ?— Going for a walk with him. 8068. As 1 understand, you never went for a walk regularly with any other soldier ? — Xo. 8069. I presume you would hardly be able to say. SELECT COM-MITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 32^ 23 May 1882.] Elizabeth J. Southey. [ Continued. Chairman — continued. say that you had not gone a few jiaces down tlie street".' — Yes, perhajis a dozen paces or so. 8070. I suppose those were soldiers whom you knew, either through Bates or through meeting them with the friends you have mentioned? — Yes. 8071. But you say that you never regularly went out to take a walk with any other soldier but Bates ? — No. 8072. You told us on one occasion when you were with a red-coated soldier in the company of other people ? — Yes. 8073. Is that the only occasion that you can j-emember ? — Yes. 8074. How old are you ? — Twenty-three. 8075. Were you in Dover when the case was tried? — No. 8076. You had left it?— Yes. 8077. That is the reason you did not hear of it till the Monday ? — Yes. Mr. Hop wood. 8078. Crump, your cousin, is an army pen- sioner, I believe ? — Yes. 8079. And he had some old mates up at the •castle? — Up at the heights, not at the castle; the western heights. 8080. He went with you to the barracks ? — Yes. 8081. Was it to see a friend of his at the barracks ? — To see a friend of his. 8082. I suppose you do not know anything about the army regulations ; all you know is, that you were taken there? — Yes. 8083. And you were there two or three hours, and then left ? — Yes, and then left. 8084. You are not, I believe, living in Dover now ; you are in service near London? — Yes. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 8085. You were asked about having seen your mother ; whether you were on good terms with her ; I think I understood you to say you saw her the night before you left Dover? — Yes. 8086. And you left Dover, I suppose, some- where about the date of this inquiry before the magistrates ? — Yes. 8087. Y'ou were asked about what took place between yourself and these two officers when they came to Mrs. Ford's. You said you were a, good deal put about, and you could not be certain that there might not be something else. Have you given us, as clearly as you remember, all that was said ? — Y'^es. 8088. Was it to the inspector or to Matthews that you said something about asking the days when you were to come ? — To Matthews. 8089. And was that said before or after he came back ? — After he came back. 8090. What did you say to him when he came back ; did you say only this, or was anything else said to him ? — No. I do not remember. 8091. Did you mean to go to the place? — No. 8092. What was your object in saying that to him? — I do not know. 8093. Was it to lead him to suppose you would go ? — Y'es. 8094. Until you could see the " somebody else " that you said you would go to see ? — Yes. Mr. Ernest Noel. 8095. In answer to Question No. 7273, Mr. Whitney says : " The girl admitted to me that she had been with men ; that she had been doing wrong :" is that a true statement ? — It Is not true. Stephen Bates, called in ; and Sworn. Mr. Hopwood. 8096. Aee you a ganner of the 12th Battery, 1 1th Brigade, Royal Artillery ? — Yes. 8097. Stationed at Dover ? — Yes. 8098. Have you been in the service some two or three years? — Between two or three years. 8099. I believe you got a good-conduct stripe last Christmas ? — About that time I was entitled to it. 8100. Have you known Eliza Southey for some time past ? — Y'^es- 8101. How long have you known her? — I cannot say ; I have no correspondence, and for that reason I have no memory ; I did not put anything down. 8102. Is it the fact that you have kept com- pany with her? — Yes. 8103. How many months past, do you think? — I could not say. 8104. Have you walked out with her in Dover? Oh, yes. 8105. Have you taken her to the theatre ? — Yes. 8106. Was that in February last? — I could not say ; I think it was. 0,75. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 8107. Was it the early part of the year? — Yes. 8108. Do your comrades know that you have been keeping company with her ? — Well, do you sec, there have been men in the battery who oftentimes met us when we have been walking out. 8109. Meet your comrades? — Yes, and passed the time of day, name by name, and such like, whatever it might be, no more than that, the usual thing. 8110. Have you heard the character they have been giving to this girl? — No. 811 1. Have you heard of the evidence that the police officers have been giving ? — I have not heard anything particularly. 8112 Have you heard that they have been saying something against her ? — Yes, in the other way ; yes, taken up for this. 8113. What is her character; is she a decent, good character or not? — I take her in this sense as a respectable girl. I have seen her walking about many times, and have never seen her with any but a young person, and T thought her companv s S 3 ' as 32H MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN REFORK THK 23 May 1882.] SxiilFHEN BaTKS. [ (Jinitinued. Mr. Ilopwood — continued, a.- decent as mine. I have a good-conduct stripe- iind 1 have been very respectable in civilian lite, as well a* in the service. 8114. That is your cpinion of her I — That is my opinion of her ; I have seen her many times. 81 1>5. If anybody said she was a prostitute, or anything like it. you would answer him. I sup- ])Ose, if he said it in your presence V — 1 would say they were wrong, as I'ar as I could see. "»116. And you can see as far us anybody eau, you think : have you known her 'i — Nothing no more than to walk with her, the same as 1 would with any other friend. Mr. Osborne Morptai. 8117. Are women allowed to come to bar- racks ? — les, after two o'clock until six, if they wish to, and they have their privilege, as a rule, amongst troops, to look round the room, or any- where they require, as long us the place is a little bit decent, particularly at Christmas, or any holi- day time : they are kejtt open ; a privilege con- venient in case a friend comes in. .Mr. Osborne Mnrgun —continued. 81 lb. You do not know of a regulation of the service which prohibits women coming to bar- racks? — I think, excuse me. I do not under- stand as regards writing: J. think if they were to act up to the regulation:* of the Army, you would not be able to be a soldier at all. Mr. Cavendish Bfuthich. 8119. You say you are keeping i^ompanv with this girl ? — Y'^es. 812'). Are you engaged to marry her? — 1 did mention it to her. 8121. Are you engaged to marry her? — 1 live in hopes of being so, that is the nearest I can put it. 1 have been out a ijood bit in times, and she not aware of it ; I do not think the young woman has known about it. I have been employed on the staft', being of a good character in the service, I should say very near three parts of my service, therefore that makes me have that belief in the young woman, and 1 liave never seen anything wrong about iier; but if anything had been far wrong, 1 should have seen something of it ; that is what I think. Mrs. Sarah Ann Ford, called in : and sworn. Mr. Hopwovd. 8122. Do you live at No. 3, Adrien-street, Dover ? — Y'^es. 8123. And are you a widow ? — Yes. 8124. We hear that you take in mangling ; is that so ? — Yes. 8125. Y'ou have known Eliza Southey several years ? — Y'^es. 8126. When did she first come to sleep at your house ? — The week before Christmas. 8127. Has she done so ever since until she left Dover? — Y''es 8128. We hear her grandfather lives next door but one to you ? — Yes. 8129. There is no sleeping place at his house, is there ? — No. 8130. So she slejit at yours ? — Y'es. 8131. Is she a hard-working, industrious young woman ? — Y'es. 8132. Does she go out charing and working regularly for certain people ? — Y'es. 8133. Did she also help you sometimes"? — Y'es, sometimes she did. 8134. With what? — Sometimes with the wash- ing ; sometimes with tlie mangling she has helped me. 8135. When you speak of washing, do you take in washing? — No. only for my mother. 8136. I asked her whether you did washing for others, and she said " No," and this may be the explanation. You know probably that she went to Miss Molland's at the almshouses? — Yes. 8137. Has she been all the time you have known her quiet and steady ? — Y'es. 8138. Does she come home at night in proper time ? — Yes. 8139. About what time: what is about the latest usually that she ever comes in ? — From 9 to 10 has been her time for coming in. 8lU0. Did you know she kept company with Bates ? — Yes. Mr. Hupwood — continued.. 8141. Did you ever see her walking with any other soldier ? — No. 8142. Do 3'ou remember the two police otficers coming to your house on the 17th A])ril f —Yes. 8143. They came first, I believe, and found that she was not in ? — Yes. 8144. Did they come there about half-|)ast 10? — It was very late when they Ciime ; I could not sav exactly the time ; but I know it was very late. 8145. Was Eliza there then .'— Yes. 8146. Give us your account of what took place as nearly as you remember ; what they said, and what Eliza said, and you said ? — They asked her if her name was Eliza Southey, and she said, yes, it was. 8147. What did they say to her .'— 1 cannot recollect all what they said to her. 8148. I will take his words, and put tbem to you ; did he tell her who he was, and what he had seen himself, and what had been reported to him by the constables ? — Yes. 8149. Try and remember, as nearly as you can, the words : these are the words he says (U. 6351), " From what I have seen, and from what has been reported to me, it is my duty to tell you that you will have to attend the examination, at No. 5, beven Stars-street :'" did he say that, or something of that kind ? — Yes. 8150. Did she say " AVhat for "?— Y'es. 8151. And did he say. " Because your conduct is anything but respectable : you are about nightly with different soldiers "? — 1 do not think that was exactly what he said. 8152. Can you give us, as nearly as you re- member, wliat he did say ? — Y'es, he told her she was leading an immoral life. " 8153. Did she say : '• There are dozens as bad as I am, and you do not take any notice of them "? — No. 8154. Did SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 327 23 Maij 1882.] xVIrs. Ford. [ Continued. Mr. Hofjicood — continued. 8154. Did you hear her admit in any way in words that she had done anything wrong ? — No. 8155. With men ? — No. 8156. Did he say, -'Well, you can please yourself : you can either come, or you can go before a magistrate : it is immaterial to me " ? — Yes, he did say so. 8157. "■ But distinctly understand that I do not press vou to come there ; T am telling you that you i;an come, if you think jjroper, and sign this submission form " .' — Yes. 8158. What did she say ? — " For why do you come after me ; I have done no wrong." 8159. You are sure she said that ? — Yes. '•' I have done no wrong, and I shall not come." That was her answer. 8160. If Mr. Whitney thinks that she said, " Well, I will come," is that the fact ? —No, she did not --ay, " I will come " ; she said, '' I shall not come." 8161. Did she say to him that she thought it was very hard that he should select her, and let others* do as they liked ? — I do not remember her saying so. 8162. Is it vour memory that she did not ? — Yes. 8163. Did he tell her to come the following day I — Me told her she could come if she liked. 8164. Do you remember anything about a piece of paper being produced ? — Yes, he gave her a piece of iKiper, or offered it to her. 8165. How came that about ? — She asked him where the place was. 8166. Had he spoken of the place to her ? — I do not think he had. He might have done. 8167. What about this piece of ])aper then; what was done with that i" — He offered her the piece of paper, and she would not take it. 8168- Do you remember her saying anything about she would get somebody to look at it for her ; do you remember vs'hat words she used, not about the paper ? — She would see someone about it. 8169. Those were her words? — Yes, she says, " I will see someone about it." 8170. Are you quiie sure she never said she would come, or led them to suppose she would come .' — Yes, quite sure. 8171. You remember the two of them going out of the door ? — Yes. 8172. Did either of them come back or stay ? — One of them came back again. 8173. Who was that ? — Matthews. 8174. Is it true that she called him back? — No, she did not call him ; he came himself. 8175. Did she say anything like this, " Stop a minute ; I want to speak to you," and push the door to .' — No, he came back and took us unawares. We did not expect him back. 8176. When he came into the room, did she say anything of this sort, " Look here ; I do not mind coming down to that place, but I do not care to come when there is .a lot of those Gtlier rough girls there, and if you will tell me the best time to come I will come;" did she say that, or anything like that ? — No, nothing at all. 8177. But did he say that if she came at a quarter to one the other women would be gone. 0.75. Mr. Hopioood — continued. and there would be no one there to see her? — He did. 8178. That is what he said? — Yes. 8179. When he said that to lier, what did she say ; did she say she would come, or would not come? — She said, " I have done no wrong ; I shall not coiue." 8180. That you are quite sure about? — Yes, quite sure. 8181. I do not know whether you were here when the officer read us something from his memorandum, or told us something about the women saying the men took their chances at No. 2, Adrien-street ?--No, I was not in the room ; I was obliged to go out. 8182. Somebody has told you, perhaps, that that was said ; is there a word of truth in any suggestion that soldiers or men ever came to your lodgings ? — No ; and I was very much surprised indeed that that man should dare to say that I have soldiers come to my house ; I have no one comes there. 8183. That is quite untrue? — That is quite untrue. Mr. Oshorm' Morgan. 8184. I think you said you could not recollect all that went on on this occasion ? — -Yes. 8185. Since you were first examined have you been talking to any of your friends respecting the evidence you were going to give? — No. 8186. Did you know that Bates was keeping company with Eliza Southey? — Yes. 8187. I suppose you did not know she went to the barracks on Christmas Day ? — Yes. 8188. Were you there ? — No, I did not go with her ; I know she went. 8189. Did you know she went to music halls? — I know she went on one occasion. 8190. Did she tell you she had been? — Yes, when she came home. 8191. Do you know these music halls at all ? — I have not been in them myself. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 8192. Did you hear anything about the friend that was to take up the case for her? — No. 8 1 93. But you heard her mention that there was such a person ? — She did not ; she never mentioned no one's name ; she only said, " I will see some one else about it." 8194. Was that all you heard her say about it? -Yes. 8195. Did she tell you whom she was going to see about it ? — No, she did not. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8196. Do you know any other cases of respect- able women going to barracks ? — Yes. 8] 97. And friends of yours '. — Yes. 8198. It is a common thing ? — Yes, it is a com- mon thing. 8199. You have been there yourself? — 'No, I have not been myself, but I know they do go ; I know friends go from the Lodge that I belong to. S s 4 8200. Did 328 MINUTES Ol' KVIOENCK TAKEN BEl-OKE THl', 23 May 1882.] Mrs. Ford. [_L'ojttiniird. Mr. Ernest Nuel. 8200. Did you hear Eliza Soutlioy atlmit iu any way to tho officers that she hail been witii other men, that she had done wrong ?- said, " 1 have done no wron^ 8201. 5^he did not say the.-e words, been with men ?" — No, she did not. -No; she I have jNIr. Hopirood. 8202. You were asked about your memory not being quite clear ; but as to wiiat you have told me, is your memory quite clear that she did not admit that she had" been with men ?— Quite clear on tiiat. 82(i.'5. And also that she did not say, " I will come ?" — No; she said, " I shall not come: I have done nt) wi'ong; I shall not come." 8204. Is there any chance of your memory being mistaken about those matters ? — 1 do cot think so. Cliairwan. 8205. Did you hear her ask ou what days she was to go ?— Yes ; I heard ask what days she was to CO. 8206. Did it strike you at the time that that ■was at all inconsistent with her not coming; that that was very odd, considering she had said she would not come ? — No, it did not strike me at all, because we were so much upset by the men coming there. ilr. JiopicMid. 8207. Did you hear them tell her she would liave to go before a magistrate ? — Yes ; it was immaterial whether she went down there or coiue before a magistrate. 8208. Do vou know if the summons was Mr. Hopwuod — continued. thrown out vhich was served at your iiuuse ? — Yes, it was tlirown out. 8209. Who threw it out ?— The young girl that stays with me. 8210. "What was lier name.' — Bertha Law- rence. 8211. If she had been a girl of bad character, must you have known it "/ — Certainly I must. I do not see how I could have been off from knowing it. 8212. You remember tlie pajier being left, I think ; was this girl much upset about it ? — Slie was very much upset. 82 lo. And did she cry very much? — Yes. H214. Did you advise her to go to anybody? — I told her if I was her I should go in the morn- ing and see some one about it. 8215. "Was a name talked over to her ? — Not till the morning ; ibr wo could nut do anything with her all night, she was crying so. 8216. In the morning did you suggest to iier whom to go to ? — I did. 8217. Who was that .'—Mr. Kees. 8218. It is a delicate cjuestion ; but I ask you whether you must have known if she had been leading an immoral life, if you had to do with her linen and so on? — I had. 8219. Can you speak confidently from your knowledge of that, that she coidd not have been leading an immoral life, or else you would have known it? — I should have known it, most deci- dedly I should. Mr. Oiljorne Morgan. 8220. Why did you suggest to her to go to Mr. Rees? — Because I knew he took a case up once before. Mrs. Sarah Lawrence, called in ; and Sworn, Mr. Hopwood. 8221. I BELIEVE you lodge with the grand- father of this girl? — Yes. 8222. And you attend to Miss Southey, the aunt, who is an invalid r — Yes. 8223. Have you known this girl since her babyhood ? — Yes ; I have known her a good long while. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 8224. I believe she has been well brought up, going to ,Sunday-?<'hool, and so on ; has she been a decent respectable girl all the time you have known her? — Yes. 8225. A hard-working girl ? — Yes. Mrs. Hann'au Dyeu, called in; and E.xamined. Mr. Hopwood. 8226. Are you the wife of Edwin Martin Dyer? — Yes. 8227. Is he a mariner ? — Yes. 8-228. You live in Adrian-street? — Yes. 8229. Nearly opposite to Mr. Southey?— liight opposite. 82.30. Have you known this girl, Eliza Jane Southey, for a good many years ? — Yes, from babyhood. 8231. Has she always been a respectable girl, respectably conducted ? — Yes, very. 8232. You never saw anything wrong about Ler? — No. Mr. Hopirood — continued. 8233. Have you had such opportunities that you must have seen if she had been ill-conducted? — Yes : she slept at my house before she went to Mrs. Ford's to sleep, "till Mrs. Ford could make it convenient. iMr. Osborne Morgan. 8234. You have never seen her talking to sol- diers, have you ? — Only to Mr. Bates. !Mr. Hopn-ovd. 8235. You knew she was keeping company with Bates ? — Yes. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 329 Fridmj, 26th May 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT ; Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Burt. Viscount Cricliton. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Ilopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Stansfekl. Mr. O'Shauglinessy. Colonel Tottenham. Me. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr. Percy William Bunting, called in; and Examined. Mr. Stansfeld. 8236. You, I think, are a Master of Arts? — I am. 8237. And a Barrister of Lincoln's Inn? — Yes. 8238. Are you a member of the Executive Committee of the National iVssociation for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I am. 8239. And you are honorary secretary of the Wesleyan Association for the Abolition of the State Regulation of Vice ? — Yes ; I am one of the honorary secretaries. 8240. Has the committee of the National Association, of which you are a member, pre- pared for the use of this Committee certain re- turns of petitions to Parliament between the years 1870 and 1881 inclusive, but not including the year 1882, with respect to the repeal of the Acts ? — That is so. 8241. That is to say, for and against the re- jjeal ? — For and against. 8242. Will you explain to the Committee how those returns have been prepared? — They have been made up by the secretary and the clerks of the society under the direction of the committee from the Reports of the Select Committee on Petitions ; and they have been rather elaborately digested in a big book which I have here ready for reference, in which the petitions are all en- tered with the index number against them, and they are classified according to the different bo- dies or places Irom which they come. 8243. Do I understand you that every petition with some description and classification of it which has been presented to Parliament for or against the Acts, or for the extension of the Acts between 1870 and 1881, is recorded in that book? —Yes. 8244. Then I believe the headings of those petitions are recorded ? — A great variety of them ; may I ask whether you mean a classifi- cation of the places ft-om which they come, or the object of the petitions? 8245. 'Ihe character of the signatories. For instance, I suppose you have such a head as Denominational and General ? — I can give the 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, headings, but I should mention that they are classified under different heads : Repeal Asso- ciation, Youns: Men's Christian Association, Boards of Guardians, Repeal Committees, Con- gregational Churches, Town Councils, Indepen- dents, all the different classifications under which they could be put. Mr. Osborne More/an. 8246. Does that analysis show how many peti- tions come from the different districts ? — Yes. Mr. Stansfeld. 8247. Now of course the Association has the total of those petitions, with the number of sig- natures under the various headings, and no doubt has tested those totals against the totals of the Parliamentary Returns ? — Yes, they have been tested, and they do not altogether agree. 8248. Your totallings have been conducted Avith great care ? — Yes, and not a few errors have been discovered in the Parliamentary Return. 8249. Will you give the Committee some in- dication of the errors you have discovered, as an indication of the pains you have taken ? — I may say, takinof one year's petitions, namely, those for 1870, "there is an error in the casting of the Parliamentary Returns of about 100,000 signa- tures through some mistake of the adding clerk ; it is against ourselves, but still we think it right to mention it. 8250. Is that Report which you are now referring to No. 30 on Petitions for 1870, page 1110?— Yes. 8251. What is the total reported to the House, and what is the total number of signatures which should have been reported ? — 587,075 is the number of signatures reported to the House. 8252. And that should be what ?— 487,075 ; it is 100,000 wrong. 8253. Then take the year 1872? — Report No. 12, page 325, gives the official total as 100,735 signatures, whereas it should be 1 10,725, T T there 330 MINUTES Of EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 26 May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. ^Continued. Mr. Staiisfehl — continued, there being an error of close upon 10,000 in deficiency. 8254. You liave criticisms upon that page of the ledger in red ink upon the figures upon the other side ? — Yes : if you lake the llcturns at page 82 of the Ledger, there is a summary of the errors which have been discovered. 8255. Now, take the official reports for 1873, Petition No. 1,230; what do you discover as to that? — Tliere is a mistake as to the object of the petition llicre ; one petition. No. 1,230, is jjut down as iVoni a public meeting at Gravescnd in favour of the repeal ol" the Acts, but the facts are that that meeting was convened in favour of the repeal, but did, in fact, petition the other way. There was a counter resolution cariied, and that has been entered as a petition against the Acts, whereas it should be a petition in favour of them. 8256. That is to say, there was no petition in favour of repeal, and you assunie that the jie- tition was carried against it, and that descrip- tion you have corrected in your return ? — Yes. 8257. 1 understand you have no knowledge of an}' jictition from that meeting, but tliere is one returned in the Parliamentary Keturn in favour of repeal, wliereas if there was any petition it must iiave been against repeal ? — Yes. Mr. Bubcer, 8258. ])o you know whether there was a peti- tion in that case, or was it only a meeting ? — I do not know that : we know that tliere was a vote at the meeting that the chairman should sign a petition in favour of the Acts, and we assume the petition was sent up in that sense, and no doubt it was. 8259. Was it a large meeting? — I was not present ; I cannot tell you that. I am speakirg from information collected for the Committee. Mr. Stansfeld. 8260. Now, will you explain to the Committee the difference between the total of petitions signed, officially and otherwise, as reported by the Select Committee on Petitions, and the total which your association find to have been pre- sented ; have you such a return ? — I have a return here of the number of petitions and signatures in favour of Repeal and of licpeal Bills presented from 1870 to 1881, as rejiorted to the House of Commons ; that is the total for the twelve Sessions {haiidivtj in Tabic No. 1). That is a summary from the Parliamentary Returns themselves ; I have also a summary a little better classified, as our clerks and secretary have made them out. 8261. But there is, is there nol, a difference in the totals of petitions signed officially as re- ported by the Select Committee on Petitions, as shown ill your return No. 1, from your own figures, as shown in return No. 2 ; will vou explain the cause of that difference? — The reason is this, that veiy often the Clerks of the House of Commons do not possess the requisite knowledge of the persons and places from whom the petitifms come, to know whether a petition is really official or not. We have much personal knowledge amongst ourselves Mr. 67an4;/(?W — continued, and our clci-ks, which shows us whetlier a peti- tion is really an official petition or not. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 8262. "What do you mean by an official peti- tion ? — A petition signed by oliicial jicrsons; for instance, ministers or office bearers in a church. Mr. Slansfcld. 8263. According to the Parliamentary Return the numlier of official petitions was 1,142, but you make them 1,806 ? — Yes. 8264. On tJio other hand the number of general petitions, according to the official return, nvas 9,173, and you make them 8,505? — Yes, that results from a transfer from the general to the official list. ( The Hltncss handed in Table No. 2.) 8265. It has been remarked that there has been a considerable diminution in the number of peti- tions presented of late years ; in the first place, I suppose you have had some experience of the conditions under which people petition for an alteration which they desire in the law, and you would not expect, would you, that petitioning should go on at precisely the same rate for a period of 10 or 12 years? — Certainly not. 8266. Besides that, there are special reasons that you can jioint out for the number of peti- tions having of late been reduced ? — Yes, especi- ally since tliis Committee has been appointed ; the bulk of the public, and I think the House of Commons also, consider the question to be sub jiidice, and that it is not quite so much a matter for petitioning as it previously was. 8267. As a matter of fact, do you know tliat the various bodies which are associated together to procure the repeal of these Acts, have largely suspended petitioning in consequence of the fact of the existence and labour of this Committee? — Certainly. 8268. There are other reasons, are there not ; take, for instance, the year 1878, were there a number of petitions in that year, which could not be presented or taken into account; will you just give the Committee a short statement on that point? — The year 1878 was peculiar in this way, that a great many of the persons who would have petitioned Parliament, and who had petitioned be- fore, preferred to deal with the matter separately, sending jirivate memorials, and so on ; a great deal of that has been done, but we have no record of it. 'I'hat was especially true of the year 1878. Mr. Osloriie 3forgaii. 8269. Including members of this Committee? — Probably including members of this Com- mittee ; I do not know that, but I think it is very likely. Mr. Stansfeld. 8270. Y'our Association has taken note of petitions both for and against the Acts ; will you draw the attention of the Committee to the jiro- portionate decline in the number of petitions in favour of the Acts ; have you a return distin- guishing between petitions for and petitions against the Acts? — 1 have a return (No. 3) of the number of petitions against the repeal of the Acts SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 331 26 May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. [ Continued. Mr. Stnnsfeld — continued. Acts during the same years, 1870 to 1881, taken from tlie House of Commons Reports. 8271. Will you give the Committee the irross total of those petitions ? — There were 45 petitions in all. 8272. How do you classify them ? — Official petitions, 9 ; general petitions, 36 ; total, 45 : total number of signatures, 3,579. 8273. During the whole of that period ? — Yes. 8274. Take the year 1872, what are the figures ? — 'I here are two official petitions and 32 general petitions, making in all 34, with 3,366 signatures ; the great bulk of which are from subjected places. 8275. Are there any petitions of any kind since the year 1873 ? — A" one at all. 8276. The fact is, therefore, that the whole of the petitioning in favour of the Acts, practically speaking, was in the year 1 872 ? — \ es, that ap- pears to be so. 8277. Are you able to express the opinion, speaking for your own denomination, that, owing to the character of the subject, ministers and others, though entertaining no hesitant opinion, have often hesitated to address their congrega- tions upon the subject, and that otherwise the petitions of your bodies would have been more numerously signed ? — Certainly ; I have con- versed with many such. Chairman. 8278. Do you mean that they have refused to address their c ngregations? — They have enter- tained a great dislike to addressing the public in any way upon the subject. 8279. That is rather a vague statement? — I am afraid it must remain vague ; but I have conversed \vith many persons, and I have found that they entertained great objection to convers- ing on the subject both iu public and private. Mr. Staiisfeld. 8280. Taking j'our own body, one of the most active years ujjon the subject of Repeal was the year 1 875, was it not ; can you tell the Committee the total number of petitions in England and Wales from district meetings of ministers and laymen for the year 1875 ? — I can give it to you from the ledger ; I shall have to make that up ; I have the district meetings and the meetings of the congregations here separately ; I do not think anyone has added them up. 8281. I will not occupy the time of the Com- mittee in taking those figures, if you have not got them before you ; but the total number of petitions from chapels and circuits in that year was 360, was it not ? — It is 360. 8282. And can you tell me how many of those were from chapels, and what, you call circuits in your body? — The great majority appear to be from circuits and office bearers, upwards of 300. 8283. Then those 300 would be signed by ministers and office bearers, practically, on behalf of much greater numbers of people? — Certainly. 8284. Now taking these, so to speak, repre- sentative petitions, have some of them come from towns subjected to the Acts ? — Yes. 8285. Can you name some ? — You mean of 0.75. INIr. Stansfeld — continued, the Wesleyan petitions especially ; I have some instances which I ca» give you ; we have "Wesleyan petitions from Canterbury, Deal, Dover, Deptford, Devouport, Folkestone, Maid- stone, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Rochester, Win- chester, Windsor and Woolwich; 17 petitions in all ; those would be nearly all the subjected districts. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8286. Do you mean that there were 17 petitions in the course of 11 years ? — No, in the year 1875. Mr. Stansfeld. 8287. And the other figure, the 360 petitions in that year, were petitions from England and Wales only, were they not ? — Yes. 8288. There were also Scotch and Irish petitions, were there not ? — Yes, there were.' 8289. Have you read the evidence of the Rev. Dr. Osborn, President cf the Conference ? — i have. 8290. He did not refer to the action taken by the Irish Wesleyan Conference with regard to the Acts ? — He did not ; the Irish Wesleyan Conference certainly did petition in the years 1871, 1872, 1873, 1875, 1878, and ls79, against the Acts. 8291. The Irish Wesleyan Conference peti- tioned for total repeal ? — -Yes. 8292. As far as petitions are concerned, those petitions have been more frequent than the petitions of the English body ? — The English conference has proceeded generally by resolution rather than by petition. 8293. With regard to your petitions from Scotland, were they also mostly representative petitions signed by ministers, moderators, dea- cons, and other office bearers ? — Yes, they were. I ought to explain that the Wesleyan body is not very strong in Scotland ; the number of Wesleyans there is not in proportion to the num- bers iu England or Ireland ; so that you would not find so many Wesleyan petitions from there for that reason. 8294. I think you are prepared to produce a large return, full of details, showing the figures from which the classified return. No. 2, wa? pre- pared ; but the Committee does not desire to have too much time occupied with those par- ticulars, so I will not go into that; but I will ask you as to the total number of petitions and sig- natures from subjected places ; can you give the Committee the total number of petitions and signatures for those years in favour of repeal, from stibjected places ? — The totals are these, from places subjected to the Acts from re- ligious societies, 163 petitions, containing 3,917 signatures. 3295. You are now going to give the Com- mittee the classification of those totals ; you have given us the religious societies, now will yott give us the inhabitants ? — Of general petitions of inhabitants, there were 170, with 69,903 signa- tures. 8296. Are those the total of petitions on either side, or for repeal ? — For repeal, I think it is. T T 2 8297. It 332 SlINLTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEEOUE THE 26 May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. [ Continued. Air. Oshoi-ne Morymi. 8297. It is very important to distingiiisli tiicni ? • — Tlie petitions in iavourot'the Acts are so very few that it would not make much difterence if they were included. Chairman. 3298. Are you able to say that tlie numlicr of ])etitions you are now giving is against the Acts ? —Yes. Mr. StansfeH. 82P9. Will you gi\e the Committee the num- ber of petitions from female inhabitants ? — There were 18 ]>etitions from female inhabitants, con- taining 12,123 signatures, and from ])ubiic and private meetings 71 i)etitions, with 232 signa- tures. 8300. And from repeal associations? — There were 37 petitions containing 271 signatures, and from other societies there were 17 petititions, containing 311 signatures, making a total of 476 petitions, and 86,757 signatures. 8301. The petitions from public and private meetings were 71 : were those 51 public, and 20 ))rivate nieetings? — Yes. 8302. Were the public meetings all, without exception, free and open to all comers? — Yes; of course I speak to the general practice ; I could not say as to every individual case. Mr. Oshurne Morgan. 8303. Were you present at these 2niblic meet- ings ? — Xo, not at any in the subjected districts, but I knovf the general practice. Mr. Bulwer. 8304. But I presume at all those meetings only one side of the question is submitted to the meeting ? — Not usually ; often a resolution upon the other side is submitted, and sometimes it has been carried. Mr. Stan!:feld. 8305. Take the case of private meetings, as to which it might be most cas}' to assume that only one side was heard; has it nor been the custom of your association, in convening these meetings by circular or ticket, not to limit the invitations to one side only? — That is the general practice, because the object of the meetings is to make converts; a private meeting is of no value as a demonstration. 8306. Now, has any religious society or de- nomination in the United Kingdom j^e'.itioncd for the Acts, or against their rejieul ? — Cer- tainly not. 8307. Can you give the number of petitions from general inhabitants resident in the subjected towns in favour of the Acts? — I have already given that. 8307. The number of petitions is very limited ? —It is. 8309. Now I will put another question to you : is there any petition in favour of the Acts, from places not subjected to the Acts, signed by any women? — No. 8310. There have been petitions, have there not, from the subjected places in favour of the Acts, signed by women ? — Yes, there have been 11 such petitions. 8311. Can you give the Committee the par- Mr. Stansfpkl — continued, ticulars of how many women in the subjected districts have petitioned against the repeal of the Acts? — There are 1,233 signatures to 11 petitions froin women in subjected places. 8312. Those petitions are characterised, as well as recorded, in the Parliamentary records, and what do you gather from those Parliamentary records to have been the character of the women who signed the petitions? — 'I'he whole of them signed as fallen women, or women who have come under the provisions of the Acts, except one, and that one was the matron of a Government Lock Hos])ital. 8313. Was that the matron of the Govern- ment Lock Hospital for registered prostitutes at Chatham ? — Yes. 8314. In 1872 did Dr. Brewer present a peti- tion to the House of Commons, signed by 48 registered prostitutes in the Colchester district ? — Yes, 8315. They expressed their collective opinion in f\ivour of the Acts, did they r.ot ? — They say that the total repeal of the Acts would be a great calamity to themselves, and that it would be a ter- rible misfortune to the country at large. 8316. And similar petitions followed from Windsor, Plymouth, and Devon])ort .' — Yes. S3 17. 'lake the petition from Plymouth ; have you that petition before you, or any reference to it? — I have ; and it is in similar terms. 8318. Does that petition express the gratitude of the women for the kindness they received in the hospital there? — Yes, it does. 8319. Taking the statement of the women who signed thai petition, which was in the year 1872, in the same year was not there an official wit- ness examined, in favour of the Acts, before the Royal Commission ? — Yes ; a Mr. Methau. 8320. What was his evidence ? — He said the women preferred the prison to the hospital ; I can give you the references to the questions, they are Nos. 3884 to 3889 in his evidence. 8321. Has your attention been called to the evidence which has been given before this Com- mittee by Mr. Shaen, the president of your asso- ciation? — I cannot say that I have read that evi- dence; I have seen the document, but I have not had time to read it through. 8322. Then I will not ask you about his evi- dence, as you have not read it. You are fami- liar with the document called the voluntary sub- mission, are you not? — I am. 8323. Now it is a matter of dispute whether that submission is really voluntary or not in its character ; have you anything to say to the Com- mittee upon that subject? — I found a rather singular piece of evidence in one of these peti- tions which I was looking at, that is, the petition from the justices of the peace at Maidstone, pre- sented to the House of Commons in the year 1872, in favour of the Acts, in which they say that " several prostitutes have been brought before the justices of the borough for refusing to sign submission papers "; that, I must say, struck me. 8324. That phraseology on the part of the magistrates seems, does it not, to sug- gest that in their minds this can hardly be a voluntary document, if it was an offence not to sign SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 333 26 May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. sio"n it? — It certainly suggests tKat the Acts worked in that way. 8325. Can you liirow any light upon the sub- ject by reference to any Parliamentary Return? — Yes ; one of the Returns to Parliament in 1871, ISTo. 381, 27th July, is "Return of Women summoned before the Magistrates in order to their subjection to the Acts, and for Offences against the Acts"; and one of the column headings is, " Return of the Total Number of Cases in which Women were proceeded against for Re- fusing to Sign the Voluntary Submission Forms ." 8326. And those two documents to which you have referred show to )'0u, do they not, or sug- gest to you, that in the minds both of the justices and of the police the refusal to sign the so-called voluntary submission is an oifence against the law ? — Certainly. 8327. Questions have arisen as to the content or discontent of the registered Government women who are in the Government hospitals ; and JNIr. Daniel Cooper, who was examined upon that subject before this Committee, was asked to cite cases of turbulence, rebellion, window breaking, and finally of imprisonment, he having expressed an opinion that the hospital was prac- tically a prison for these women, but he was not able to refer to any recent cases ; have you any information which you can lay before the Com- mittee upon ihat subject ? — The information Mr. Daniel Cooper was unable to give can easily he obtained by getting the Return of it ; the Return was moved for in 1881 by Mr. William Fowler, and was put in the notice paper; it is to be found in the Return of Votes and Proceed- ings of the 2oth July 1881. ]\Ir. Fowler asked for " Returns of the number of women sum- moned before the magistrates in the various districts where the Contagions Diseases Acts are in force, distinguishing the numbers summoned in order to their subjection to the Acts, and the numbers summoned for offences against the Acts, including cases of offences committed by women in hospital ; and, of the numbers of orders of committal to prison, specifying the period in each case, and distinguishing those in which more than one term of imprisonment has been inflicted, for the period from the Jst day of January 1872 to the 31st day of Decem- ber 1880." 8328. Can you tell the Committee what hap- pened with regard to the notice of motion by refer- ring to the Votes and Proceedings of the House ? — The Proceedings of the House show that Mr. Cavendish Bentinck opposed the motion, and I imderstand it was not able to come on that Session on account of the block. 8329. You are aware, are you not, that the Committee obtained the loan of the pi-ivate re- poi'ts of the chaplain to the Chatham Lock Hos- pital, and by direction of the Judge Advocate they were placed in our hands ; were they exa- mined by the officials of your association? — They were. 8330. They were, were they not, quarterly re- ports of the chaplain from 1875 to 1881 inclu- sive ? — Yes. 8331. What did they show under the column "Sent to Gaol"? — In 1875 there were three re- 0.75. Mr. Sifans/e/ff— continued, tur.is only, and not four, that is to say, for three quarters of a year, and six cases were sent to gaol; in 1876 there were 17 cases sent to gaol; in 1877 there were eight cases; in 1878 there were four cases ; in 1879 seven cases; in 1880, one quarter being missing, there were 11 cases; and in 1881 there were seven cases: making a tctal of 60 cases for seven years, with two reports missing, from 1875 to 1881, at Chatham alone. 8332. And those were the women sent to gaol from the hospital ? — They were so reported by the chaplain. 8333. With any definition of tiie offence in each case ? — JS'o. 8334. Can you refer the Committee to any other recent cases reported in the journals of the locality at the time ? — There was a case reported at Portsmouth. 8335. Where is that reported ? — It is reported in the " Hampsliire Advertiser" of the 9th of June 1877 ; there were three girls charged with creating a disturbance in the Lock ward of the hospital, breaking glass and drinking cups and plates, and the magistrates committed them all three to the sessions for trial ; that is a recent case, but I have not the newspaper here. 8336. I have asked you as to the number of petitions for and against the Acts ; can you tell me tlie number of petitions presented to Parlia- ment in favour of the extension of these Acts ? — There were three in all. 8337. Can you refer to the principal one of those three, and to its date ? — The chief one is the petition from Birmingham in 1870, which had 253 signatures. Mr. Bulwer. 8338. Was that petition signed by the honour- able Member for Birmingham? — I have not examined the signatures. Mr. Stansfeld. 8339. The petitions, on the other hand, from Birmingham for repeal have been very largely signed, have they not? — Very largely indeed; there was a very considerable agitation at that time in favour of the Acts by some medical men, which accounted for the ' former petition. 8340. Can you, by reference to the ledger, tell me what petitions, if any, there have been for the amendment of the Acts ; do you find that there has oidy been one petition specifically for the amendment of the Acts? — -There has only been one. 8341. What was the prayer of that petition? — " For such amendment as would be a systematic discouragement of the practice of prostitution in garrison towns ;" that petition is from Col- chester. 8342. Amongst the petitions, a certain number from subjected towns which have been referred to (or some of them) already, have complained, have they not, of the accuracy and validity of the police reports ? — Yes. 8343. Take the year 1879, what petitions of that kind do you find ? — I find eight petitions. 8344. From what places? — From Plymouth, Chatham, Dover, Canterbury, Southampton, Gravesend, Maidstone, and Chatham again, t T 3 8345. Are 334 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEl'OItE THE 26 May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. \_V(mtiiiued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 8345. Are those petitions numerously signed? — There are 2S0 signatures in all. 834G. But are those signatures referred to those of ministers, official persons, town mis- sionaries, Bible-readers, and so on? — Yes. 8347. So -we may assume them to be signed by persons having special means of knowledge and speeial opportunities of I'orming a judgment? — That is so. 8348. Have you been familiar at all with peti- tioning amongst your own body, or other bodies or numbers of people, in favour of any other public objects? — I have known something, of course, of ])etitioning Parliament. 8349. Can you say to this Committee, from your own knowledge of the classes of persons who have signed those jietitions, that they have been on the whole signed by a very respectable class of people '/ — Speaking generally, certainly. Mr. Osborne Morr/an. 8350. How many of the two million persons who liave signed those ])etitions do you know personally? — I cannot answer that question; some hundreds, probably. Mr. Stansfeld. 8351. I will carry this a little further; j'ou have been summoned here to give evidence upon these i)ctitions, and your special knowledge as concerning the petitions from your own body ? — I do not know that 1 could say that; I think I could say I know about as much of the others. 8352. At all events you know more about the persons who constitute your own religious body than of those who constitute other bodies ? — Of the classes of persons, I do. 8353. Are you able to say, from your know- ledge f)f the constitution of the Wesleyan body to which you belong, that the ministers and office bearers and members of those congrega- tions who have signed the Wesleyan petitions for the repeal of the Acts, are a respectable class of peoj)]c? — Unquestionabl)'. 8354. And you see no reason to sujipose that the same remark will not ai)ply to those who have signed belonging to other denominations in the country ? — Certainly not. 8355. The total number of signatures is up- wards of 2,000,000 during the 11 or 12 years; of course many of those signatures have been re- peated more than once ? — Xo doubt. 8356. But I take it that that remark would apjily to the petitions upon any other subject? — Certainly. 8357. In fact, it would be an impossibility to petition during a series of years without to a considerable extent repeating the signatures themselves? — Certainly; it would be impossible. 8358. Take, for instance, such a question as the Burials Bill? — Certainly. I should have no doubt that in the case of the Burials Bill the same persons renewed their protest year by year. Mr. Oshorne Morf/an. 8359. You could not give me any idea, I sup- pose, of the number of old signatures ; I mean by Mr. Oshorne Moryan — continued, "old signatures," signatures which had been pre- viously affixed to the jietitions to which you have referred? — I could not; it would re(|uire you to eomj)arc all the jjctitions, but that could be done, if the Committee thought it important enough. 8360. I want to ask you as to your knowledge of the individuals who iiave signed the jietitions coming from subjected districts ; could you tell me with how many of the persons in the sub- jected districts who signed petitions you are per- sonally acquainted? — Not a lai-ge number. 8361. Have you ever lived in the subjected districts ?— No ; I have lived in London and the north all my life. 8862. Are you conversant with them ? — I am not conversant with them. 8363. Can you give me any idea, except so far as appears from the returns j-ou have handed in, as to the jiosition and character of the jiersons who have signed petitions from the sulyected districts? — Only from my knowledge of tlie way in which those petitions have been got up ; 1 know many of the persons who have been engaged in getting them up, and they are persons of unusual con- scientiousness and care. 8364. Your answer to Mr. Stansfeld was founded rather upon j'our knowledge of the persons who got up those petitions than of the persons who signed them ; is that so ? — Yes. 8365. Were the persons who got up those petitions persons connected with your society ? — Not to a large extent, I think. 8366. AVere they jiersons who were convei'- sant with the- subjected districts ? — A great many of them were persons residing in the sub- jected districts. 8367. Vou say that altogether there were petitions bearing 83,000 signatures coming from the subjected districts; is that so? — You may take that from the return. 8368. Of course among those 83,000 signatures no doubt there were a good many repetitions ; the same names were repeated over and over again? — That may be. 8369. Can you give me any idea of what the whole population of these subjected districts is? — I have not a table of it. 8370. "\Yoidd it be about a million?— I can- not tell you; I should not wonder. 8371. Do you happen to have by you a list of the vice-presidents and other officers of your society, the National Association? — I do not know whether there is one in the room, but we will furnish it. 8372. Is that the association of which Mr. Shaen is the chairman? — He is the chairman. 8373. Can you give me any sort of idea of what the income of your society is ? — I am afraid I forget at the moment. 8374. Cau you give me any sort of idea, 4,000/. or 5,000/. a year ? — It has been as much as that ; it varies in diffijrent years very much. 8375. If you could give any sort of idea of the income, I should be glad ; would 5,000 /. a year be over or under the mark ? — £. 5,000 a year would be over the mark now ; there has not been much petitioning done for several years past ; the SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 335 26 May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. [^Continued. Mr. Osborne More/an — continued, the work has been rather directed lately to get- ting up the evidence for this Committee. 8376. The getting up of a petition would cost a considerable amount of money ? — Yes, from the amount of stationery that you would require to have supplied. 8377. You have a good many Members of Parliament, have you not, amongst your vice presidents ?— Yes, a good many Members of Par- liament. 8378. A good many Members of this Com- mittee, are there not ? — I think not many. 8379. Have you any Members of Parliament who are Members for those subjected districts? — I cannot tell you that. 83S0. You could not remember whether there is one such vice president? — I could not remember that ; that will appear from the list of vice pre- sidents. 8381. Again I must ask you whether there are many persons occupying the position of magis- trates and town councillors, or other responsible and official positions, in the subjected districts among your vice presidents ? — Not a large number. 8382. Are there any? — I could not tell you that without examining it ; there are not many vice presidents of the National Association, but of course there are members of the Committee. Dr. Farquhai'son. 8383. May I ask how the general petitions were got up, to use the phrase you used yourself; were they cari'ied about from door to door ? — I think not very often from door to door; the usual plan would be by people ascertaining the opinion of people they know and getting such signatures as they could from people who were favourable. 8384. \Yere the petitions lying in shops for signature by the public? — I should think not, but I could not be sure. 8385. Was there any limit of age or any limit of the sort placed upon the persons who signed ? — I do not think there was any limit placed upon the age, but young persons of course were not asked to sign. 8386. Do any of those petitions contain the signatures of medical men? — Some of them do. 8387. Do you know to what extent? — I do not think we have a separate return, but there have been many separate petitions from medical men signed by them in considerable numbers. 8388. From subjected or non-subjected dis- tricts? — I forget whether there are any from sub- jected districts, but there are some large ones from Liverpool, Nottingham, Belfast, and other large towns. Colonel Dighy. 8389. I suppose you signed the petition your- self? — Yes. 8390. Have you signed many ? — No, I think not. 8391. You could not say how many ? — I could not say how many, two ot three, perhaps, I should think I have signed, but that is a guess; I have not signed frequently. 0.75. Mr. Bulwer. 8392. You are a member of the bar ? — Yes. 8393. And a practising membei? — Yes, at the equity bar. 8394. At Lincoln's Inn ?— Yes. 8395. What is the position you hold in this organisation?— I am a member of the committee, and I am the honorary secretary of the Wesieyan Association. 8396. And a member of the committee of the National Association? — Yes. 8397. Of the Anti-Contagious Acts Society ? -Yes. 8398. Are the books and so forth kept at your chambers, or at some office ? — No ; these are the books of the committee. I am only a member of the committee, not an officer of it. 8399. You are the working man of the com- mittee, I judge? — No, I am sorry to say I have not been able to do much ; I am a very busy man, and though I have attended meetings of the com- mittee, and so on, I could not call myself a work- ing member. 8400. You do it for love, of course ? — Of course. 8401. You are not a salaried officer? — Cer- tainly not. 8402. Now, I am not familiar with the mode of getting up a petition ; if you wanted to get up a petition, what is the process ? — You cannot get up a petition unless you have considerable public feeling upon the matter. 8403. Surely you cannot say that ; I have heard of such a thing as public opinion being manufactured, and a petition is a splendid way of manufacturing public opinion. I want to know how you get up a petition ; say that you think that the Contagious Diseases Acts ought to be repealed, and you are an energetic person and very strongly in favour of the repeal of the Acts, how do you proceed? — I should joroceed by awakening public attention and calling the atten- tion of persons who agreed with me in different towns to the matter, and they would get up the peti- tions. You begin by circulating information in the way of meetings and literature bearing upon the subject, and the result of it is thatpersons who agree with you form themselves into committees, and of course they get signatures of persons who are desirous of petitioning. 8404. You do not go through the process, do you, of hearing both sides, and getting their opinion about it? — At public meetings both sides are heard, and I happen to know upon this par- ticular subject that, to a large extent, the persons who have got these petitions up have taken the f)ains to explain and discuss the whole subject with the persons who signed before they got the signatures; they have been particularly careful about it. 8405. Those have been more carefully got up than any other petitions within your knowledge ? — Upon all sides. 8406. How many people out of those two millions do you think understood a word about the subject ? — The vast majority ; of course I am speaking from general information, but I know there has been great care taken in the matter. 8407. How are the signatures got to a petition ; the people do not come to your office to sign ; I pre- t T 4 sume 336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE 2(j May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. \_Conlinued. Mr. Buhrer — continued, sunie some collector goes round with the jietitioii ? — .Vs u rule, persons interested in the matter and local commiltees discuss the matter, and obtain signatures to the petitions. 8408. I]ut I presume the petitions arc signed by working men, and j)Cople of all sorts and classes ? — Yes ; but the local committees consist partly orworhing men. 8409. Do they get any rennincration for their services?— No ; as a rule, I shoukl think tlie case is exceedingly rare in which they get any remu- neration. 8410. AVhcn they do get remuneration, is it in the form of percentage lor llie number of signa- tures ? — I never heard of any such case; I am not aware of any paid canvassing for signatures. 8411. Do I understand you, as a practical man and a man of law, attaching great importance to signatures got uj) in favour of a particular mea- sure or against a particular measure ? — Some- thing depends upon tlie way j'ou get them up ; if 1 v\ anted to manufacture public opinion and petitions upon the subject, I could no doubt pay 50 or 100 men a peicentage to get up petitions, and I have no doubt that signatures would be got to a considerable extent. 8412. Then your socicly has considerable funds, has it not? — Not more than we require. 8413. 1 should think not; I suppose, if your funds were larger, you would have more petitions and more signatures ? — I do not know ; I siiould doi.bt that. 1 mean, by saying we have not more than we require, that the ordinary work of the association, in su])])lying literature to the persons who want it in regard to petition- ing and stationery work, and the expenses of the office, aie very considerable. 8414. You, 1 presume, are a gentleman who has come to an intelligent opinion with regard to this matter? — 1 think I may say so. 8415. Take a place like Colciiester, for in- stance, where there is a large camp and a great number cf soldiers, and a very considerable num- ber of jirostitutes. Supposing a disease breaks r,ut amongst the prostitutes, and is communicated to the soldiers, what I want to know is this, have YoU formed any definite idea in your mind how that evil is to be dealt with ? — It can only be dealt with, in my o[)inion, by the general im- provement of the morals and habits of the soldiers and of the town. 8416. Of course these considerations should liave their effect ; but, in the meantime, would you do anything or nothing to stop the misery and the injury which has been done ; that is the way in which you would deal with it; you would educate the soldiers and the prostitutes, but still, in the meantime, you would let tlie evil go on ? — I would su]>ply, in the meanwhile, as much as possible voluntary hospital accommodation; I would rely upon those two things. 8417. You stated that people signed petitions more than once ; do you mean that the petition presented in 1870 is jirobably signed by the same people who petitioned in 1871 ?• — To some extent that would probably be true. 8418. The old jjetition is not copied out again, and people asked whether they are willing to allow their names to remain ujion it ?— Certainly not. Mr. liulwer — continued. 8419. It is not a ease of " Vote early and vote often " .' — Oh, no I Jlr. Cavendish Beiifinck. 8420. Si)eaking of the period of 10 years, from 1872 to 1881, both inclusive, I find that, in round numbers, you have 1,120,000 signatures i* —Yes. 8421. Do you happen to know how many of those are women ? — I am afraid it has not been woi'ked out ; I cannot tell you that. 8422. A large number would be women? — A large number would be. 8423. And also would not a large number of tiiat 1,120,000 be signatures of jicrsons who signed more than once? — I should tliiiik a con- siderable number would be ; I could only speak generally to a question of that sort. 8424. You have no idea what the proportion w'ould be? — Xot at all. 8425. But it is absolutely certain, I presume, that the same individual must have signed within 10 years more than one jjctition ? — Oh, yes, in a great many cases. 8426. Therefore that would bring down the number of individuals very much below that number ? — Yes. 8427. I wish to ask you a question upon the same point as that which was dealt with by my honouralile friend, namely, with regard to the machinery by which those petitions are got up ; do you, from the funds of your society, i)ay persons for getting up petitions ? — No. 8428. You mean that no person is ever paid? — I think, never. 8429. I wish to refer you to the case of a ladies' school which haj)ficned in 1873, which was brought before the Select Committee upon Public Petitions, of which I am a member; you will find the facts stated by iSIr. Stansfcldin Question 8166 of the evidence of last year, addressed to IMr. Shacn ; by a special report which was brought up from the Select Committee on Public Petitions, and which was laid upon the table of the House, it appears that " in the case of the petition numbered 14,619, ])resented from Stroud on the 15th of May last, for the repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts, purporting to be signed by the pupils in the [ ] establish- ment for young ladies and their teachers, it appears that such petition was not signed by any of the pupils in that establishment, and that the heading was inserted by one W. H. Cornish, of Stroud, after the signatures had been appended to the petitions :" did you ever hear of that case? —No, I never heard of that case. Cliairman. 8430. Is that Stroud petition included amongst the number of petitions you have referred to us? — I cannot say. Mr. Cavendish Bentiiicli. 8431. The next question put by ]\If. Stansfeld in the re-examination of Mr. Shaen is, " Do you know who W. H. Cornish was? (A.) I do not know." Now the next question to which I (lar- ticularly wish to direct your attention is tins : " He would probably, would he not, be a man who SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 337 26 Mai/ 1882.] Mr. Bunting. l^Coniinued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch — continued, who was engaged in getting up this petition"? and his answer was, " He probably wuuld." Now I wish to ask whether you, with your ex- perience in these matters, know any man who has been engaged in getting up petitions ? — Many men have been engaged in getting up petitions. 8432. You do know men who have been en- gaged in getting up petitions ? — Or who have engaged themselves ; I do not know what mean- ing you are attaching to the word " engaged'; do you mean employed as the agent of somebody, and paid ? 8433. Employed as agents of the society? — I am not aware that Mr. Cornish was ever an agent of the society ; but I was not a member of the society in 1873. 8434. Do you know any people who have been engaged professionally in getting up petitions ? — I do not know that I do ; we have agents, but their work is to gather information, and bring together in different towns the persons who agree with us, and there to form committees. I should not like to say that no one of these men ever has got up a petition, but I do not know that he has; he may have doue so. 8435. You are not aware whether it is the practice in the country to employ jjersons to get up petitions ? — It is not our practice, certainly. 8436. You cannot say it has never been done ? — I cannot say it has never been done, but it is not our practice. 8437. Have you any special guarantees for the genuineness of those signatures ? — The character of the persons who get them up is a very good guarantee. 8438. But I suppose you are aware that there is nothing more common than to find many sig- natures in the same handwriting and names re- peated ; I want to know do the agents of your society take especial care to see that the signa- tures are all genuine ? — Yes, many of the peti- tions come through the office of the association at Westminster, and a thing of that sort would be detected at once. 8439. Are you able to state to the Committee that you have any special o-uarantee for the genuineness of the signatures which are ap- pended to those petitions ? — We have two guarantees ; the first is the general character of the persons who take the petitions round, and the second is that a good many of the petitions come through our office at Westminster, and any manufacture of signatures would be detected at once. 8440. Do you take any particular pains to prevent the people signing petitions failing into the hands of such people as Mr. W. H. Cornish? — Yes, we are generally very particular about the persons who take it up. 8441. What steps do you take ? — The great mass of the people doing the work are people of respectability and character residing in the different distiicts. Mr. Osborne Morrjan. 8442. But you have no guarantee of the re- spectability of the persons signing ? — None, except that. 0.75. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 8443. You have no j)articular guarantee that the classes of persons who sign those petitions are respectable? — Not beyond that furnished by the persons who get them up. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8444. You have no guarantee that the persons who signed those petitions really knew anything about the question .' — ^I know it is the practice to talk to them about it. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 8445. You told my friend the honourable Member for Cambridgeshire that these jjetitions are generally the consequence of meetings that have been held ? — Frequently. 8446. Is it not the fact that your society pays the expenses, if not of the petitions, yet of the meetings ? — Yes, frequently. 8447. Now I will call your attention to a case which occurred in the borough of Whitehaven, which I represent, in 1876 : Mr. Gledstone, who was examined before this Committee, informed us that he had attended or got up a meeting in Whitehaven in 1876, and another last year in 1881, at the expense of some society, and I think he said this society ; can you inform the Committee whether you paid the expense of those meetings or the meetings at which Mr. Gledstone attended ? — I cannot give you the details ; I think it is very likely. 8448. But it is your practice, is it not ? — We very often pay the expenses of holding meetings. 8449. 'Do you go so far as to pay the expenses of placarding at an election time? — Yes, we have, I think, done that. 8450. I may take it that you inform the Com- mittee that although j-ou do not paj^ for getting up the petitiuns, yet you do pay for the meetings which lead to those petitions ? — Yes, we do, sometimes. 8451. The meetings which, as I say, were held, were not followed by any petitions to Par- liament ; would not that be an indication to your mind that the feeling against tlie Acts was not very strong in this place ? — I could not tell you unless 1 had been at the meetings. 8452. From the fact of two meetings being held, and no petition following them, would it not be fair to conclude that there was no very great feeling against the Acts ? — I do not think it would necessarily follow at all; in fact, I know that at Whitehaven a considerable number of people do feel strongly against the Acts. 8453. Can you give me any of their names ? — I am afraid I have forgotten the one that I did know. Mr. Hopioood. 8454. You were asked about petitions; can you say that a real bond Jide endeavour is made to obtain a legitimate expression of opinion of the people of England and Scotland and Ireland against these Acts ? — Unquestionably. 8455. And from your knowledge of the manage- ment of the association, are you convinced that that is honestly and respectably conducted? — Certainly it is. U u 8456. In 338 MINUTES OV EVIDENCE TAKEN REFORE THE 26 Mai/ 1882.] Mr. Bunting. [ Continued. Mr. Hopwood — contimied. 8456. In fact, I could hardly suppose that a gentleman of your position would be a member of such an association unless you were so con- vinced ? — Unless I were convinced, on the whole, that it was honestly and respectably conducted. 84.J7. Then you were asked whetlicr, if you had such a place as Colchester to deal witii, and so on, and whether you had ai)plied your mind to the consideration of tiiis matter. I will ask you, have you applied your mind 1o this whole sub|ect as much as any member of this Connnlttee ? — I am afraid I am not sufficiently acquainted with the Committee to know. 8458. Have you applied your mind for many years to the subject ? — Certainly. 8459. Have you considered it in its practical application to the population in its religious and its ethical aspects ? — Yes, certainly. 84G0. Do you coiuleinn it upon all grounds? — Certainly ; upon that point I ought to say that at first I was ratlicr disposed, upon medical grounds, to take the other view, but have be- come convinced to the contrary. 8461. Have you found others, besides youi-self, who have taken the same turn that j'ou have ? — Certainly. 8462. Supposing that disease broke out at Colchester, have you any objection to send medi- cal men to cure it, if necessary ? — Not the slightest ; we are bound to cure the disease. 84G3. Is your objeotion to the machinery of these Acts ordering women to come up to see whether they are clean for men? — That is one of my objections; another is the general character of the Acts. 8464. That would be quite independent of the emergency of disease breaking out in the camp? — CertaiYily. 8465. Is your idea, generally stated, that some effort ought to be made by voluntary means to secure hospitals for the cure of these diseases? — Unquestionably. 8466. And that without appearing on the part of the State to give a sanction to immorality ? — Yes ; ray moral objection is to an organised and advei'tised system by which the cure is before- hand advertised in such a way as to lead persons to suppose that they may sin with impunity. 8467. You were asked questions as to whether you had any Members of this House on the list of vice-presidents ; will you look at that [liandinr/ a Pn]>cr to the Witness) ; does that give a list of the vice-presidents ? — Yes, it does. 8468. And that does include a number of Members of Parliament ? — Yes, a considerable number. 8469. Will you look further, and tell me whether you have there a list of your general executive committee ? — Yes, I have. 8470. And also of the number of members shown under the heading of each place ? — Yes. 8471. I think j-ou have marked in blue the different subjected places, and the references to gentlemen who are members of your association who reside in those places ? — Yes, that is so ; there -.ire many marked: if you look at the blue you will see them marked. 8472. There is the Vicar of Aldershot and the V icar of Canterbury, and I see some minister of religion in Chatham ; in Chatham the ex-mayor Mr. Hopwood — continued, of Rochester is a member, a Mr. Wheeler, who has been ex.-rmined here, and others in Dover and Devonport ? — Yes. Mr. Bulwer. 847.3. Who have you at Dover ? — At Dover we have five mend)ers u])on the committee: Mr. Rees, whom you know ; Mr. Rogers, vicar of Christchurch; the Rev. John Austin; Mr. Joseph Burt; and Mr. W. H. Gregory. ilr. Hopwood. S474. You have a large number of subscribers, have vou not, to tlie funds of the association '.' — Yes. ■ 8475. Is that, in your judgment, a test of their sincerity in opposing these Acts? — Yes. 8476. And when you were asked about your income, supposing that to be 5,000 /., is that spent in the manner you have described to us, upon the machinery ol' the office, and in carrying out, in fact, all the legitimate objects of agitation upon this subject? — Certainly. 8477. I understand the figuies to be between 2,000/. and ;i,000/. a year only as the income of the Xational Association ? — The figures that I have been icferring to refer to some time back. The income varies a good deal with the woz-k which has to be done, because of course the sub- scribers arc informed of what is intended to be done. 8478. With regard to getting up petitions, is it your experience that unless the ])ublic mind is moved, it is very difficult to get up petitions? — Upon a large scale, certainly. 8479. With reference to the repetition of the names, that may account for tlie increased num- ber ; but is it also evidence of the continued con- viction of the persons who sign? — Beyond a doubt. 8480. With regard to the Stroud case, I under- stand you to say you know nothing about it? — I do not. 8481. But I think, if my Right honourable Friend had read the next question (8169), he would have seen the answer of the witness was, as to putting the wrong heading to the petition, " Yes, and that was an entirely wrong and un- justifiable act on his part '" ; I understand you to say that you know nothing about the case at all ? — I know nothing about the case at all. 8482. Do you think it at all surprising, that among a large number of petitions it should be found that one or two persons may have mis- conducted themselves, eitlier from over zeal or from impropriety of conduct? — No doubt you would exjject a certain proportion. 8483. And seeing that in the House of Commons there is this careful inquiry into peti- tions, do you judge that to be evidence, that the other petitions have stood the test of examina- tion ? — No doubt ; and, moreover, a very large number of signatures have been sti'uck out of our petitions from want of sufficient addresses, wdiile thev were bona fide signatures enough ; for instance, in a country village, a large number of miners will sign. There are no specific addresses in the village, and I understand the clerks of the House of Commons strike out the whole lot, sim- ply because there are no streets and numbers, which do not exist in a village. 8484. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 339 26 May 1882.] Mr. Bunting. [ Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 8484. You are a member of the committee, a practising lawyer, and a busy man, you say ; but has it been the result of your conscientious opposition to these Acts that you have devoted a considerable amount of time to opposing them ? — Certainly, that is so. 8485. And, probably, you know that many other people have done the like ? — I know a great many others who have done the like. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8-186. I see that there are 38 Members of Parliament amongst your vice-presidents, and of those, four are members of this Committee ; that is so, is it not, Mr. Birt, Dr. Cameron, Mr. Ernest Noel, and Mr. Stansfeld ? — That is so. 8487. I cannot find a single member who represents a subjected district? — I am afraid, with- out Dod or Vacher before me, I could not tell you. Mr. Hopwood. 8488. I suppose you cannot say either whether they are in favour of the xlcts or not ; you know neither one way nor the other? — I do not know what their view may be. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8489. Confining yourself to your own list of vice-presidents, as tar as I see, there is not a single man who represents a subjected district? — I must take that from you ; I do not know ■where Mr. Armistead sits for, taking one instance. Mr. HopioooJ. 8490. Will you also allow me to ask you this, does that list by any means comprise the number of Members of the House of Commons whom you know to be opposed to the Acts ? — Certainly not. 8491. But those are gentlemen who have iden- tified themselves with this movement, and pro- bably have subscribed to its funds ? — ^Certainly. 8492. And you know many Members who have not done so, although they are oi^posed to the Acts? — Certainly. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8493-4. Could you say that any member for a subjected district is a member of your associa- tion, or has identified himself in any way with the opposition to the Acts? — I am not j^repared to say anything about it. Mr. Biilwer. 8495. What is the name of your society? — The National Association for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts. Mr. Bulwer — continued. 8496. There is no converse society to your society for the extension of the Contagious Diseases Acts, is there?— There was such a society ; I am not aware that it still exists, but I believe it still exists ; Mr. Berkeley Hill was the- principal man connected with it. Mr. Hopiuood. 8497. Do you know that Mr. Lowndes, of Liverpool, took a great deal of interest in the subject ; he ^vas either the honorary secretary of that society or had written on behalf of it?— I think I remember he was a prominent member of the society. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8498. I see the " Shield " is published under the auspices of the association ? — It is. 8499. You are not the editor of that paper?— I am not. 8500. Is the society in any way responsible for what appears in that newspaper; is it supported and paid for by the funds of the society?— The society in part pays for it ; but as to the responsibility, that would imply that the proofs went before the Committee, which they do not. 8501. Are you aware that this paper is sent round to Members of Parliament and their wives occasionally ? — No doubt. 8502. Is that at the instance of the society? — It would be under tbe authority of the society, but it must be remembered that the wives of many Members of Parliament are active sup- porters of the movement. 8503. But it is sent round to the wives and female relatives of Members of Parliament gene- rally, is it not ; are you aware of that ?— I was not aware of it, but it may be. 8504. Is it sent round regularly to the wives and female relatives of Members of Parliament generally?— I have no doubt copies have been sent to the wives of some Members of Parliament oc- casionally. 8405. Is that done at the instance of your society, or is it done on the responsibility of the editor of the paper? — It is not done on the re- sponsibility of the committee. 8506. And copies of this paper, which go, as you are aware, at least into particulars about'these diseases, and the working of the Acts, are at the instance of the committee sent round to the wives and lady relatives of Members of Parlia- ment _?— Copies of the paper are, no doubt, sent occasionally. Mr. EoWLAND Rees, called in ; and Examined. Chairman. 8507. The Committee, after considering your letter to me the other day, came to the determina- tion of hearing your evidence on any matter personally affecting yourself concerning the Dover case ; of course they will also hear evi- dence that you may have to give concernino- this particular Dover case, but they are not in a position to go into any evidence outside the par- ticular case and its bearing on you; they are not prepared to go into general evidence bearing 0.75. Chuirman — continued, upon the Acts in Dover. Now you heard the evidence of Inspector Whitney in this case ?— I did. 8508. When did Eliza Southey call at your house ?— On the 18th of April. 8559. Had you known her before that time ? — No. 8510. Had you any knowledge of her family or her friends? — None whatever. 8511. Did she tell you; I suppose you in- ^ U 2 quired 340 MINITKS or KVIDENCK TAKEN BEFOUK THE 26 May 1882.] Mr. Hees. '[{Joniinued. Chairman — coutinued. quired wliy slie liad called upon you ? — She in- quired to see nie, and jiroduced her order to go to Seven Stars-street, and then in great distress. She asked, could I tell her wliat to do ? I asked who sent her U]), and she said some friends had sent her. I made inquiry al)out her character, and I said, " The thing is entirely illegal, and I recommend you to disregard it in to/o.'' 8512. That meant that, in your opinion, she ■was not a fit person to bring under the Acts? — Yes; even if she was, I meant the thing was illegal altogether. 8513. AV'hcn you say she ])roduccd an order, do you refer to the piece of ])aper which has been given in evidence here ? — iTes. 8514. Have you read that piece of paper? — The words upon it were, " Eliza Southey is ordered to attend at No. 5, Seven Stars-street, at 12 o'clock noon, on Tuesday, April 18. 8515. Are you quite sure that the words were "ordered to attend "' ? — The pa])cr is before the Committee ; it is not in my jwssession at the moment. The word " ordered " was in it. 8516. She came to you; did she appear to be in a great state of agitation and distress ? — She was so. 8517. Did she assure you she was not guilty of the charge brought against her ? — Yes ; I may say that, as a tolerably old man, and having 12 children, and about 20 grandchildren. I said to her, " Xow, 1 suppose, there is something the matter ; what is the cause of all this ?" She was in great distress. " There must be some cause," I said ; and she said, " No ; I was engaged to an artilleryman, and I have walked in the streets with him, but nothing more." I investigated her case in as kindly a manner as I could, and with an intense desire to get at the exact merits. I said, "Have you been immoral?" She said, *■ Never, sir." I said, " Well, you disregard this paper, which is illegal, and perhaps they will leave you alone ; and if anything else occurs you may come and tell me." Did she tell you that she had asked the policeman what day she was to attend?— No. 8518. She did not mention that ? — No. 8519. Did she give you in detail an account of the interview between her and the policeman? — Yes ; she said the police served the notice upon her. 8520. I know she told you generally, but did she describe to you the conversation she had, after the departure of the inspector, with the constable ? — -She said that the constable remained behind after the inspector had left, and told her that she must go, or she would have to go before the magistrates. 8521. Did she tell you whether she had asked him to remain behind, or whether he had remained behind of his own accord ? — She told me he had rem.ained behind of his own accord, and shut the door ; the other one went out, but he remaining behind, told her she must go there or before^the magistrates. 8522. Did you make inquiries about her cha- racter amongst her acquaintances ? — I did ; I made inquiries of a lady who was a teacher of hers in a Sunday school in her youth, and she has taken the trouble to ascertain, as it had been a Chairman — continued, dreadful case, as I conceive it to be, and I also sent to her mistress, Mrs. Clout. 8523. 'J'hc Sunday school teacher, T presume, knew her when she was a young girl ; but did you find that the Sunday school teacher retained her ac(piaintancc with her? — In this Avay ; her aunt is an invalid, and this lady, who was her teacher in the Sunday school, has been a visitor distributing from a benevolent society some assistance to this aunt of hers, who was an invalid for 20 years, and for about 20 years she has been visiting her, and knew her character from her Sunday school, and I sjwkc to her about that. 8524. On the whole, you satisfied yourself that she was a girl of good character? — I did; I went to Mrs. Clout and also to Mrs. Pearce, who had employed her, and to ^Irs. Sutton, who had employed her, and made myself thoroughly certain tiiat there was no ground for the charge that had been made against her. 8525. Upon the 24tli April did she bring you a summons? — She did. 852G. It was the ordinary summons, was it not ? — It was tlie ordinary summons, setting forth that she was a common prostitute and must go before the magistrates. S527. What did you tell her upon receiving the summons '! — I told her to go home and be quiet, and compose herself and trust in God, and if they should go further, I would send the thing to some gentlemen who would liclji her. 8528. You saw no more of it? — I saw no more of it, and my connection with her case tiieu terminated. I would just say tiiat I was so impressed with the awful nature of this case, that I felt it my duty as a magistrate and a public man to write to the Secretary of State to inter- pose some authority to save her from the inevitable destruction which would await her. 8529. Have you had a reply to that letter ? — Yes, and I have answered that letter also. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8530. Have you copies of those letters, of the first letter you wrote, and the answer from the Home Secretary, and your reply to that ? — I will supply them, but very much of the matter in the letter which I sent to Sir William Ilar- court will be found in the letter which, I think, has been placed before this Committee, and I also addressed to the Right honourable James Stansfeld a letter, thinking that as the Committee Avas sitting now, it would be an illustration of the case, and that it should be inquired into. {After a short discussion). Chairman. 8531. Let me read you this passage from the evidence: "Assuming that anybody said that multitudes of women in this town (that is, Dover) have been imprisoned on the mere suspicion of a spy, I wish to know from your experience during the time you have been officer there whether any such cases occurred;" to which Mr. Whitney re- plies, " There is not one word of truth in it." I iDclieve you desire to make some further state- ment upon that? — I wish to say that upon the facts my statement is literally true, that 70 women have been so imprisoned in Dover. 8532. Are SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 311 26 Mai, 1882.] Mr. Rees. S^Coiitinue.d. Chuii-man — continued. 8532. Are the cases of those 70 women cases which have been brought before the magistrates and adjudicated? — Yes. 3533. And, notwithstanding the adjudication of the magistrates, in your opinion those 70 cases were cases of imprisonment upon the mere sus- picion of a spy ? — I may tell yoti, having been present myself, that it is a little better now than it was originally ; the legal form is taking a little more shape. The girls are brought up upon a summons ; at first they were not sworn even, so loose was the proceeding in our court. 8534. Who were not sworn? — The police, when they went in and gave their evidence. 8535. Were you present in the court when the policeman gave evidence ? — Yes, I said, " This policeman is not sworn," and theCourt said, "Well, let him be sworn;" they said, "Is it very impor- tant ? " and I said it was very important. 8536. Were you present upon any occasion when the police were not sworn? — No, I chal- lenged them. 8537. Therefore, as far as your knowledge goes, you cannot refer to any case where the rjo- liceman was not sworn ? — No, he was about to proceed with his evidence when I remonstrated, and the clerk said, " Well, do it for the future." Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8538. Do j'ou really mean to say this: I ask you whether the Dover magistrates have ever committed a woman to prison upon the testimony of witnesses who were not sworn ? — My impres- sion is that in the early part of 1870, when the Acts were first applied, they did adjudicate or give judgment upon a case; the Acts were very imperfectly known, they did give judgment upon a case where the inspector stated the facts ; but I may say you can obtain the exact facts from the depositions which were laid before the clerk to the magistrates. I believe that to be the fact which i have stated, because when Cogger, I think his name was, came up with the girl when I was on the bench, he was about to give his evidence, and I said, " This is surely irregidar, this man ought to be swoin," and some one in the Court said, " Well, we have not been doing it so." 8539. I want to ask you this: is it within your knowledge that, in any case, the magistrates of Dover have committed a woman to prison upon the evidence of witnesses who were not sworn? — I have not that evidence here. Chairman. 8540. The question of the Judge Advocate is, the question I put to you before, whether of your own knowledge from what ■^u saw with your own eyes, and heard with ymir own ears, you know of any case in which the evidence of the police has in those cases been taken not on oath? — I know a case of my actual knowledge ; I stopped that process when it was being re- peated. 8541. You know of no completed case in which the evidence of the police was iak en not on oath ? — I have seen no case, personally, bvit I have stopped a case as I said before, and I wish it to be noted, I am quite ready with all the facts ; I stopped the case, and said, " Assuming that was 0.75. Chairman — continued. the practice" (of which I had no direct evidence), " this man must be sworn." Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8542. Do I understand that you cannot put your finger upon any case in which a woman has been committed to prison upon the evidence of unsworn police? — I have just stated that, of my own knowledge, I had not seen such a case. Chairman. 8543. Of course, they were the ordinary magistrates of the town of Dover, who v/ere sitting on the bench on the occasion that you referred to ? — Y''es, I was on the point of the spy 8544. What you meant by the statement that these women were imprisoned tipon the mere suspicion of a sjiy was, that they were imprisoned by order of the magistrates on the statements of the police? — On the contrary, the statement of the police being originally restricted to the words of the Act, " 1 have good reason to believe;" and when I said, '■ Will you tell me the grounds of your belief?" the solicitor, who was then em- ployed by the Admiralty and by the Metropoli- tan police, said, " Whatever your views may be, your worship, as to this law, that is sufficient ; he is not required to give evidence ; " I said, " Do you suggest, Mr. Fox" (that was his name), " that the substance as well as the form of the constitutional law is repealed by these Acts ;" and he said, " that is sufficient ; he is not required to give evidence;" and I said, " Then I cannot sit here and hear that; I will ask the inspector what are the grounds of your belief; " he told the in- spector he might answer if he liked, but he was not obliged. I am glad to say we have got a little beyond that now, but before that the diffi- culty had prevailed. 8545. We. must confine the evidence to what will justify you in your statement, quoted by Mr. Cavendish Bentinck, that multitudes of people have been imprisoned upon the mere sus- picion of a spy ? — Multitudes have been. 8546. I understand you that there have been 70 cases in which women have been imprisoned after proceedings before magistrates, and those 70 cases are the cases you allude to which are quoted in that statement ? — They are the number which have been imprisoned in Dover under those Acts. Dr. Farquharson. 8547- I only wish to ask you if you are fully convinced in your own mind that the word " ordered " appeared in the paper you saw in the possession of the girl ? — I am morally certain of it. Chairman. 8548. Here is a copy of it (Jiuiiding a paper 1o the Wit»ess)l — This says "to attend." 1 thought it contained the word " ordered " ; but if it is " to attend," it means '• ordered." I do not know what other interpretation could be given to a message to attend at No. 5, Seven IStar-street, Dover, at noon ; it is a very specific order. 8549. You remember she asked the policemen IT u 3 what 342 MIXUTES OF EVII>ENCE TAKEN BEFORE TOE 26 May 1882.] Mr. Rees. [Conliiiucd. Clidirman — continued, what were the clays of attendance ? — I have lost sight of that, if I heard it. 8550. But a-^suniing tiiat that is in the evi- dence, would siie not naturally have left them under tlie impression that she intended to attend? — I do not know what their impression is; I know siie came down to me in great trouble and great distress under tlic pressure of the threats that she had had from them. Dr. Farqulmrson. 8551. You are aware tliat tlie policeman asserted that this was no order, but was merely a memorandum, witli the object of refreshing the girl's memory as to the time and place at which she had to attend? — I shouM not take such evi- dence as proper evidence ; it is a regular order upon her, 1 should asjunie ; I do not know whether it is the universal practice. Mr. Bulwer. 8552. This paper has a little note : " Miss Southey to attend at No. 5, Seven Star-street, at 12 o'clock noon, on Tuesday, April 18th ; " it is your interpretation whicii you put upon it in saying that that is an order to attend, is it? — It seems to me to be susceptible of no other inter- pretation, in ray mind. 8553. That is your view ? — Entirely so, and the girl so understood it. 8554. You would not say that it might be to all intents and purposes desci ibed as a notice, for instance ? — We had it before the court fully gone into; it was argued out as a legal order. 8555. [ do not wish to know what went on in court, but these simple worils, " Miss Southey to attend at No. 5, Seven Star-street, on Tuesday the 18th of April, at 12 noon," would not bear the construction of a sira])le notice, in your opinion ? — In my judgment, it is an absolute order. 8556. You have been asked whether this Eliza Southey (!ame before you in the first instance ; you are a gentleman who has taken a great interest in the repeal of these Acts? — I suffered a great loss of property ia paying for it, and great loss of health. 8557. Cannot you say, yes or no ; you have taken a great interest in the repeal of these Acts, have you not? — Very great Interest. 8558. You inquired into her case, did you not ? — When she came I did. 8559. From her in the first instance ? — Yes, I have stated everything that I know. 8560. Could not you say yes or no ? — I have already put that in evidence. 8561. Could not you answer yes or no? — I did. 8562. Did you give her any advice upon her state ? — Yes. 8563. What was it?— When she stated her case, 1 asked her about her habits, whether she read her Bible, and she said '•' Yes." I said she should read her Bible, and strengthen her mind, and trust in God ; to go quietly home, and not to obey the order. 8564. That is what I wanted to get at, you might have left out the other part ; you told her that she was not to obey the order? — I told her Mr. Bulwer — continued, that, it was utterly illegal, and to disregard it entirely. 8565. And then it was after that, was it, that you inquired into her character from her school- teacher and otlier ])ersons? — Yes, immediately. 8566. After you had told her to disregard it .' — Yes. 8567. Why did you tell her to disregard it ? — Upon the ground of my seeing her absolute ruin involved. 8568. But how could you know whether the charge was well founded or not ? — I know that the order was to go to the examination house. 8569. But how could you tell whether the charge was well founded or not? — I knew the thing was illegal ; I told her so upon the grounds of its illegality. " Do nijt mind that," I said; " and if any further steps," that is legal steps, ''are taken," which I thought there would be, "' you may come and tell me." 8570. Having done this, then, you knowing the case was coming before the magistrates? — No, not till the summons issued. 8571. Then the summons issued, did she bring the summnns to you? — She brought the sununons to me on the evening of the day she received it. 8572. What did you tell her to do with the summons? — I told her to go home and be quiet, and I would send this summons to a gentleman who I had no doubt would see her, and take care that justice should be done ; that was all I could do with it. 8573. Tlie gentleman, I presume, who would see that justice was done, was a solicitor and a counsel? — No; the gentleman was the gentleman who had been about the case; and I told her if the summons came, I would send it to him ; that was Mr. Alfred Stace Dyer, and I heard no more about it. 8574. Were you upon the bench when the case was heard ? — I was. 8575. Was there a solicitor and counsel who appeared for the girl?— There was a barrister. 8576. And a solicitor instructing him, I j)re- sumc ? — He did not appear in court ; of course the barrister was instructed by somebody ; I think it was Messrs. Brockett and somebody in Chancery-lane. 8757. Were they employed by you and paid by you ? — What do you mean ? 8578. Did you pay them? — That is an im- possible question ; I separated myself from it immediately the matter assumed a judicial form. I said it was my duty to impede injustice. 8579. I am quite certain you are desirous of carrying out justice ; could you tell me who did pay the solicitor and barrister ? — I have not the least knowledge or idea indirectly, remotely, or contingently; I sent up the thing to -Mr. Dyer, and there was an end of it, so far as I was concerned. 8580. You were on the bench ? — I was on the bench. 8581. And took a very prominent part in the decision? — I took a grave, thoughtful, loyal, and patriotic part in the performance of my duty. 8582. Who sent all the newspapers about the country containing an account of your decision ? — I do SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 343 26 May 1882.] Mr. Rees. [ Continued. Mr. Buhoer — continued. ■ — I do not know ; I had nothing to do with that. 8583. Was it the society of which you are a distinguished member ? — I am not a distinguished member of the society ; most of my labour has been in my own independent way. 8581. I know I had one of the copies? — I do not know anything about that ; perhaps the peo- ple who took up the case for the woman did that. 8585. But as far as I can judge fi-om your own statement, it was you who took up the case for the woman ? — I ho2)e that all the honourable Members will understand the part I took in it ; the part I took in it was to see that a case of, as I thought, threat difficvilty and importance should be taken up ; but the newspapers I sent or pro- cured I jDaid for, newspapers which contained a report of the case, and they would be about a dozen or half a dozen. 8586. Do you mean to make the assertion that cases have been heard and adjudicated upon by the Dover magistrates in which the evidence given has not been upon oath ? — My impression, as I stated before, was that in 1870 there were at the beginning of the operation of these Acts, cases of that kind, and that I stopped one on the bench in 1870, and said the witnesses must be sworu. 8587. Do you (because this is an important matter) assert it, or do you not? — -I assert it of mj own knowledge, as I said before. My first knowledge and exjDerienoe of that was in stopping a police inspector. Chairman. 8588. In stopping the clerk from accepting his evidence without the oath? — Yes, in stopping the clerk from accepting the evidence without the oath. 8589. But the police inspector showed no un- willingness to take the oath ? — Not at all ; if it occurred at all it was, as I suggested, from a want of knowledge of the nature of these laws. 8590. That is to say on the part of the tri- bunal ? — I suppose on the part of the clerk to the magistrates ; I should rather think it was that. ftlr. Bidwer. 8591- Is that your only foundation for tellino- the Committee, and saying in public as you have said at public meetings, that you believe that women have been sent to prison upon these charges upon evidence not given upon oath ? — No, that is not what I mean ; my point is that they have been sent to prison upon the evidence of a spy, not without being upon oath ; that is a remote affair. Chairman. 8592. My question, in the first instance, is this : have you asserted, or do you now assert, that the Dover magistrsttes have a'djudicated in these cases and sent women to prison upon evidence not given on oath ?— I have not asserted it, and I do not assert it now. My point is that they were committed to prison on suspicion. 8593. But it is only fair to point this out to you : the question here is that you have asserted that these women had been sent to prison on evi- 0.75. Chairman — continued, dence not taken upon oath ? —No, I beg pardon, I have asserted noUiing of the kind ; my con- tention from the beginning was not the oath, but that those persons were committed on suspicion, and the words of the Act which I have quoted to day were, "I have good reason to believe;" that is the point, and that is the point in the argument I have used in every place where I have been. 8594-5. Do you now state that you do not assert that there have been cases in which these women have been sent to prison by the magistrates on evidence not taken on oath ? — I do. 8596. But you told the Committee several times that you believed ? — But that beUef is not inconsistent with what I stated. 8597. You told us that you believed that on many occasions at the commencement of these Acts women were sent to prison upon evidence not taken upon oath? — 1 said that in 1870 1 stopped what I believed was an illegal process ; I do not believe it has been continued since. 8598. Do you think it was done before that time? — I believe it was ; but there couM only have been a few cases, because the Acts had been only in operation a few months, Mr. Burt. 8599. When you stopped the clerk from taking the evidence without administering the oath, I understand you to say that it had been the custom to do so ? — Yes, I understood it so, and I remem- ber I had a distinct recollection of it. I said, " This cannot be." He said, " It is so." 1 said, " It cannot be ; we must swear the man." Mr. Bidwer. 8600. I understand you to assert positively that the practice was not to administer the oath in those cases, and that you put a stop to it ? — The evidence goes in that way, if you like. 8601. I want to know the facts? — In my belief the facts are so. 8602. Have you at Dover, as they have at many places, an arrangement between the mao-is- trates as to sitting, some sit one month and some another? — For our convenience we make a rota. 8603. Southby's case was taken in Afiril, was it not ?— Upon the 28th of April, 8604. Were you on the rota for that month? — No, I was not on the rota for that month ; but I was acting the day before upon a smuggling case quite distinct from this. If the object is to show that I was not upon the rota, I may say that I was not technically on the rota. 8605. If you will be kind enough to answer the question without anticipating the effect of your answer, I should have much greater pleasure listening to you ; you were not on the rota ? — I was not. 8606. But you sat as a magistrate to hear the case ? — Yes, I sat as a magistrate to hear the case. 8607. And took a very prominent part in the decision ? — I cannot say that ; I did not take a prominent part in the decision. 8608. But you took the part described in the newspapers? — There is nothing whatever de- scribed in the newspapers. u u 4 8609. Does 344 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE 26 Maij 1882.] Mr. Hees. r Continued. Mr. Biilwer — continued. 8C09. Docs the report accurately dosoribe what took i)hicc ? — The account in the " Dover Exprc!-s " seems to nic to be a literal account of what took jilace. 8610. You took a strong part in oxamiiiing the witnesses, and made use of very strong ex- pressions of opinion, according to tlic rc))ort in the " Dover Express" ? — The •' Dover Express" is very accurate in describing what took place, Mr. Osliorne Morgan. 8611. Did it api)ear to you that it was con- sistent with your duty as a magistrate that before this case came before you as a magistrate you should have this conversation with this young girl 'i — Certainly. 8612. And to advise her? — Certainly. 8613. You consider it consistent with the duty of a justice of the peace tiiat before adjudicating upon any case you should have a ])rivate conver- sation with one of the parties to that case, and should give her private advice as to the mode in which the ease should be conducted ? — I think it is the duty of every man wlio is a magistrate to whom such an ajjpeal is made, that for the sake of honour and justice he should advise. 8614. Even though you knew you would have TO adjudicate upon it? — I did not know that at the time ; but when the summons came, I with- drew from it. 8415. Did you think it a right thing, after you had had this communication with the girl, who was one of the jjarties to the case which ycu were to adjudicate upon, not only that you should after- wards sit upon the bench, but that you sliouid go out of (he way to sit upon tlic bench ; do you think that consistent with your duty as a justice of the peace? — I did not go out of my way; but I should regard it as my im])erativc duty, and overwhelmingly my duty, when I heard of a case of this kind, where an injustice was likely to occur from want of proper advice, to see that justice was done and injustice impeded. 8616. Having taken the part you did in this case, did you tliink it was your duty to sit upon the case, or adjudicate upon the case, instead of leaving it to your brother magistrates ? — Cer- tainly, or I should not have gone there. 8617. Do you think your brother magistrates were not to be trusted to do justice in such a case? — I was nevertheless anxious to be there myself. 8618. Kow, you say that you had an interview with this girl, and you made inquiries of her as to her conduct, and that you had sjjoken to some of her friends ? — Yes, that is so. 86 ) y. Did you speak to her mother ? — Xo. 8620. You know she has a mother ? — Yes, I do. 8621. Have you ever seen her mother? — Never. 8222. Would not her mother be the person with whom you would naturally communicate? — I sent to the mother, but 1 did not see her; I believe she is bedridden, or something of that kind, with rheumatism ; however, I sent a person to tell me all that I wanted to know. 8623. Did this girl tell you that she had been on Christmas Day for two hours and a half in Mr. Osborne Morqan — continued. the company of soldiers in the barracks ? — Xo, I do not believe she stated that. 8624. Did she tell you that she had been three times at a music-hall or dancing saloon?— I un- derstood she had been twice, and she told me she had never been out later than half-past 1 1 ; I asked if that was her usual hour. 862.). " The question 1 asked of her was, 'Do you often go to music-halls or theatres ? A. No. Q,. Have you ever been except on those two occasions? A. I have been on two occasions in the place in the market square; once by myself, and once with Martha Cooke. Q. That is, besides the time you said you went to this place in Snar- gatc-strect? ^-/. Yes. Q. Those are all the times? A. Yes. Q. What goes on in these music-halls ? A. Singing. Q. Dancing? A. Yes. Q. You sav that since you have been in Dover you have only been inside these music halls twice with Bates, and twice besides? A. Once with Bates. ^. Three times altogether? .^. Yes.' " Did she tell you that she had been three times? — She mentioned twice to me. 8626. You hear now that she admits herself that she had been three times ? — I do not think she admits it in that evidence ; 1 think it is a mis- conception there, because she was very specific with me. 8627. And she Avas asked, " You say that since you have been in Dover yon have only been inside these music halls twice with Bates, and twice besides." And she said, '' Once with Bates.'' Then I said, "Three times altogether," and she answered, " Yes." Is not that an admission that she had been there three times altogether? — lam not calling that evidence in question; I only say she did not tell me so; she said she had been twice. 8628. Do you know anything about this music hall in Snargate-street ? — No, only that they are licensed houses ; we have unfortunately to license them. 8629. You were in the army once, were you not? — I was. 8630. You were tried by court martial ? — I had that honour. 8631. That was in the year 1843?— It was. 8632. For what were you tried ? — For disobe- dience of orders. 8633. With what result?— I was offered to be re-instated again, and I beat the persons who brought the charge against me. Chairman. 8634. The question you are asked is, what was the verdict of the court martial? — The finding of the court martial wa.'? that I should be dismissed the service, and that my pay and allowances should cease and determine from the fifth day, I think, of November 1845 or 1846 ; I am not quite sure. 8635. Now, having answered tiie question directly, is there any statement you wish to append to that? — I wish to say that we had a great deal of contention at Hong Kong, and we had a great deal of public controversy, and I ofijiosed the General on a certain matter, and he put it to me would I resign or would I continue my policy. I said, " I cannot give up. General." He said "You SELECT CDMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 345 26 May 1882.] Mr. Kees. \_Continued. Chairman — continued. " You must." I said, " Integrity and uprightness will uphold me, and I cannot give up." He said, " Then you will have to be tried by court martial.'' Mr. Osborne Morgan, 8636. What position did you hold in the service ? — I was Civil Service Surveyor of the Ordnance. 8637. You stated that you had a certain posi- tion in the Civil Service Department in Hong Kong ? — I was technically called the clerk of the works, of the comparative rank of a captain. 8638. You were tried by court mnrtial for dis- obedience to orders, was not that so, and found guilty ? — Yes, that is so. 8639. I want to know what was the sentence of the court martial ? — I have just stated : " Ordered to be dismissed on such a date, and the pay and allowances to cease from such a day." I think it was on the 5th of November. 8640. And that sentence was executed ? — Yes, the sentence was executed, but I may say, if the honourable Member wishes to reflect upon my character and upon my position as a gentleman, that in that matter of Hong Kong, about which public opinion was very much divided, I appealed to the Government, and had redress after I came home. I wish to say that the Duke of Wellington said such a thing should never take place again. Chairman. 8641. You say that you had redress after you came home ? — I had. 8642. Will you tell me what it was ?— It is 35 yeai's ago, and this matter has been suddenly sprung upon me after having long been in oblivion ; but I may say I remained in Hong Kong three years afterwards, in the esteem of all people who knew me ; I had written my state- ment home, and it was sent to a very respectable man, Brigadier Chesney, of the Artillery. He said : " 1 send you this letter, by which you will see the decision of the Commander-in-Chief, the Duke of Wellington, in which he said such a proceeding was never to take place again ; " and he concluded, " I hope the loss of your appoint- ment by these proceedings will lead to a much better appointment, which your character richly deserves." That was Brigadier Chesney, and I saw Lord Clarence Paget and Mr. Rice, in order to vindicate myself, and I told him there was 150 I. mess which was charged against me, which I wa? asked to pay for, and they wrote word for me remitting that at once, and asking me verbally would I take back my appointment, and I said I never would. 8643. Who asked you that?— Mr. Rice, the then Member of Parliament for Dover, and Lord Clarence Paget, in Pall Mall. 8644. Have you those letters? — No, it has passed from my memory long ago ; I was not in- jured by it ; it gave me a few thousands a-year more pay immediately. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8645. Were not you tried for insubordination as well as disobedience of orders ?— I submit that you had better ascertain that from the Judge Advocate. 0.75. Chairman. 8646. You were asked the question, and you must answer it ? — I cannot answer it. 8647. Do not you remember? — I think the terms of the charge were these : " For refusing to go to Chuckchoo on such a date, and take an an office in quarters." Colonel Tottenham. 8648. But you would know, as an old soldier, that such an offence as disobedience was in- subordination? — 1 was a young soldier then; but of course every one would know that dis- obedience is an offence and must be punished, and I accepted the punishment. Chairman. 8649. As you have made a full statement and have had an opportunity of stating the redress you received, of which you have very properly availed yourself, I think you may now allow the matter to pass. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 8650. I wish to take you back to the Southey case ; I understand that Miza Southey, on the 24th April, brought you a summons? — That is so. 8651. And then you told her to be quiet and not to trouble herself about it, or words to that effect ? — I told her that, and more. 8652. What else did you tell her?— That I would send her to a gentleman in London who would see that justice was done in her case. 8653. Was that gentleman Mr. Dyer? -Mr. Alfred Stace Dyer. 8654. Did you write to him? — Yes, and sent him the summons ; he requested me, if I had the summons, to send it to him, 8655. What did Mr. Dyer do?— I do not know. 8656. Had you no further communication with Mr. Dyer ?— No. 8657. Not before the day of hearing by the magistrates? — ]No ; there I left the matter; I said that I had done with the matter. When I sent it to Mr. Dyer, I knew it was in good hands. 8658. And from that hour until the end you had nothing more to do with it? — I had nothing more to do with it. 8659. You said you did not go out of your way to sit as a magistrate to hear any of the cases ? — That was my judgment. 8660. Did you hear the case immediately pre- ceding Eliza Southey's case ? — 1 heard all the cases that were heard in the court that day. 8661. You heard all the cases? — -I think so. 8662. Are you quite sure ? — I think there were two before Eliza Southey's case that I heard. 8663. You will swear that you heard both those cases?— The cases that came before hers I heard from the beginning, when the court was formed. 8664. Will you also swear that you heard the case immediately succeeding Eliza Southey's? — I do not know that there was a case immediately following. 8665. Cannot you tell whether there was a case immediately following that? — I think there was a case. I remember the chairman said : " We have heard this case before, Rees ; you have not been here, and have not heard the evidence, so X X you 346 MINUTES OF EVIDMXCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 26 May 1882.] Mr. Kees. [ Continued. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, you had better not stoj)." It was an adjourned case : I believe there had been two previous sit- ting's ; it was a ])art-heard case. The two other cases, which hud not been heard before, I did hear. 86G6. The cases which arose upon that day that were original matter you heard? — Yes, all that dav and the day before it. 8667". Now, with regard to the question of the number of women who have been sent to Sison since the introduction of the Acts at over, are you aware tliat there have been 39 cases altogether since the introduction of the ^cts? — I "have already stated that there have been 3!) sentences in Dover since the introduc- tion of the Acts ; there were more sentences in Dover before the abolition of the prison in Dover: the Prisons Act has closed our prison, and the prisoners are now sent to Canterbury, but there were 39 sent to the Dover prison. Women were sent from Folkestone and from Shornecliffc, and women from Canterbury (with which place we had a contract) were also sent there, making up the 70 which I stated were in- cai-cerated in Dover prison. I can give you the return. 8668. How many individual women were there in those 39 cases ? — I am afraid that the awful and melancholy fact appears that two or three of the women were seized afterwards and brought up two or three times ; that is the most awful part of the whole of the Acts in my judgment. 8669. That is another matter : are you aware that there are only 22 individual women who have been sent to prison in the Dover district since the introduction of the Acts? — I am not aware of it, but I dare say it may be so, because a o-irl who had been living with one man would not fo to be examined, and she would be sent to prison for a month, and then on a secoud refusal she would be sent for another month, and then not "-oing to be examined, she would be sent acain to prison for another month. That is the awful part of it to, my mind; I cannot say the number of individuals, but I know there are 39 sentences. Mr. Hvpwood. 8670. I understand you have come to-day before this Committee in consequence of your own expressed wish to notice and reply to some things that have been said in reference to you? — That is so. 8671. You, in fact, have not come so much to give evidence ; that was not your first point, as to set right some matter which you thought derogatory to yourself? — I did. 8672. 1 believe it is the fact that this girl came to you in great distress ? — That is so. 8673. Was she crying? — Yes. 8674. And very much put about by this con- duct ? — She was very much agitated. 8675. And you deemed it right to give her advice at that stage ? — I deemed it an absolute duty. 8676. At that stage there was nothing but the piece of paper which you read as an illegal order to the girl to attend ? — That is all. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 8677. And you conceive it was not inconsistent with your duty as a magistrate to say, " That is an illegal order, do not attend ro it"? — Certainly not ; 1 considered it my bounden duty to advise her not to attend to it on every groiuul of public right, more especially as a magistrate. 8678. Between that time and the time of the sunuuons being sent, did you retiu'n that to the gentleman whom you knew to be a benevolent gentleman in such matters ? — Yes, i\Ir. Dyer. 8679. After that time did you do anything except send the summons up to ]\Ir. Dyer ? — That is all ; there my connection with the case terminated, 8680. I understand you to say that, as far as the rota was concerned, you had sat the day be- fore to try some smuggling cases ? — Yes, we arc not particular in our rota ; we assist each other ; we can always go when we like. It is peculiar in Dover that, although the rota is made, we seldom have the rota ol)served, and therefore the magistrates go when they think j>ropcr. 86SI. During that rota did you go before ? — I had the day before in a snmggling case witii refei ence to a Belgian boat. 8682. You have taken a strong view about these Acts? — 1 have taken a righteously indignant view about them. 8683. Have any of your colleagues taken a strong view the other way 1 — I never met a thoughtful man, who knew anything about the Acts who was in favour of them ; some of them say, " We had better have clean women ; let us have the Acts." 8684. Before this did it appear to you that the public records had been ransacked to find out something against your past character? — It appears so. 8685. And those records are the military re- cords ? — Those records are the military records. 8686. liave you, for the space of the 37 years that have elapsf d since that time, been reproached with this by anybody else ? — Never ; it was never considered wrong to me in any sha])e whatever; it never inculpated my honour or jiosition in any shape whatever : to-day is the first time I ever heard such a suggestion made. 8687. I suppose courts martial, like other tri- bunals, occasionally err in the way of justice? — I have known the best of men tried by court martial. 8688. And it has been found difficult some- times to stand up against a superior officer ? — Yes, I could have avoided these proceedings if I had only capitulated to my superior officer. 8689. On coming back to England, did you set yourself right, in the manner you have de- scribed, with your military friends and comrades, whether above, below, or on a level with you? — There was not a military man I knew who did not sympathise with me. 8690. Do you feel at a disadvantage to have had this sprung upon you ? — I do, but I will make it public ; 1 will have it printed and sent to all the Members of Parliament and to my friends. 8691. I am giving you an opportunity to ex- plain here to-day if you wish to do so? — I never heard the thing reierred to disparagingly, and indeed SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 847 26 Mmj 1882.] Mr. Kees. [ Continued. Mr. Hopwood — continued. indeed it could not be so, for there was nothing disparaging or dishonourable in the matter. 8692. Now, going back to the case of Eliza Southey, did you preside upon the occasion of the hearing ? — No. 8693. Who was chairman ? — There were two gentlemen_ sitting at the same time as magistrates who were in favour of the Acts. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 8694. You sat with two colleasrues whom you believed to be in favour of the Acts ?— Both of them. 8695. Did they concur with you in all the proceedings of the day ?— Certainly. 8696. And come to the said judgment unani- mously ?— Unanimously ; they anticipated my judgment upon every point. 0.75. 348 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN HEFOKE THE Friday, 27id June 1882. MEMBEKS FUESENT : Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Ml-. Biilwer. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Sliaughnessy. Mr. Stansfeld. Sir Henry "Wolff. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Cn aik Mr. James Baxendale, called in; and Examined. Mr. Osborne MoT(jaii. 8697. You live at No. 14, Prior- street, Green - wi'^li, do you not? — I do. 8698. And you are the manager of the Green- wich Refufre for "Women ? — I am. 8699. "What accommodation have you for ■women ? — "We have accommodation for four, but we may have six in the house in the case of emer- gency. 8700. Do you receive anybody who comes in provided there is room? — Any one. We make inquiry, first of all, about them, and if we find that there has been theft in the matter, or drunkenness, then if it is a long period of im- ])risonmcnt for theft, we desire tliem to go to the union for a time and show that they want to do well, and then afterwards we take them out of the union. 8701. For how many days, on an average, do you keep these women ? — On an average about ten days. 8702. What proportion of the women who come to your refuge are fiillcn women ? — More than three-fourths are fallen women, taking the whole together. 870.3. The remainder would be drunkards and people of that class, I suppose ? — Yes. 8704. What do you endeavour to do with these women after they have left your refuge ? — In the first jilace we go as far as we can to inquire what their general conduct has been as regards sobriety and lionesty ; and in the end, sometimes after three days, sometimes four days, and sometimes eix days, or it may be as much as 10 days, we jjut them into service at once. 8705. Do you make any rule as to the kind of situations which you secure for them ? — We never put them where other servants are. 8706. For a very good reason, I suppose? — We do not think they can keep their own coun- sel in the first jilace ; and in the second place there might be a possibility of corruption. 8707. You did not say, I think, that you only took women who had been discharged from pri- son ? — We do not take them if they have been long in prison, or if tiiey ai e given to drink. 8708. After those women have left your Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. refuge, you endeavour to provide them with situations in domestic service, and, as a general rule, you are successful ; is that sci ? — I am thank- ful to say we never have to go to seek situations. They are applied for rather than the otjier way. 8709. Are the masters or the mistresses of these women Avhcn they go into service informed of their antecedents ? — Invariably. I will give you an instance, and you will see how it is. A lady may come into the refuge, and say, " Is this a servants' home ?" and we say, " No, ma'am, it is a refuge ; the girls that are here have licen doing wrong either one way or another, but we tell you what has happened, and we have made in- quiries ;" and it is left entirely to their discre- tion whether they take them. 8710. From January 1872, down to the pre- sent time, how many fallen women have passed through your home from the Aldcrsliot Lock Hospital? — From January 1872, we have taken 114 from the Aldershot Lock Hospital. You must understand that of these a few would come from Windsor; but all those who are diseased would go to the Aldershot Lock Hospital. 8711. As they have all been to tlie Aldershot Lock Hos])ital, of course they must all have been on the register, and under the Contagious Dis- eases Acts ? — Decidedly so. 8712. Could you give me any idea as to the length of time which those women who have passed through the Lock hospital have been on the streets? — I should say, on an average, not less than four years. 8713. Have you a summary shoAving what has become of those 114 women after they left your home? — Out of the 114 we have sent 17 to their friends ; we have put into service 21 ; into insti- tutions five ; and 23 have married. I must say here that a number of tiie girls come from Aider- shot with a promise from men that they will marry them if they will go and behave them- selves for a given time ; and I am thankful to say that we have not had above two failures of that sort, and that they have really married them ; so that we have had 23 married. One emigrated ; five died ; we have had fifteen who have gone back SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 349 2 June 1882.] Mr. Baxendale. \_Continued, Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. back to their evil life, that is to say, they have gone back to Aldershot. 87 14. Which you assume to mean going back to an evil life ?— Yes. Then there have been 21 whose future career has been unknown. A girl may, perhaps, get on her feet and behave herself, and she will emerge into the crowd, and we lose sight of her for some time. It is rather remark- able that last night I was in Woolwich, and I met two girls with infants in their arms, and those two had both been with us from Woolwich and Greenwich, and they were both married. Those are really amongst the unknown. 87 15. " Unknown " does not necessarily mean that they have gone back to a bad life ? — They may have gone to the bad, or they may be in service, or they may be with friends ; we do not know. 8716. That does not quite exhaust the 114, does it? — Six were confirmed drunkards, that we could see no possibility of helping ; we offered them the union, but they refused to go. 8717. Have you sent any to other benevolent institutions ? — I have put them into Bethnal Green, and Into Mr. Cooper's, and into Mr. Thomas's. Those are cases of women who have no knowledge of service, and who are quite in- capable of earning their bread. Mr. Bulwer. 8718. Are those the five that you mentioned that you had put into institutions ? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 8719. You have made out a summary, which you can put in ? — I have. That is the method that we adopt in our reports {Jiandbig in a Paper). 8720. You have had some fallen women, I think, from Woolwich, Greenwich, and Dept- ford ? — In ihe same period, that is to say, from 1872. we have had 147 from Greenwich, Wool- wich, and Deptford. 8721. Are these that you are speaking of fallen women ? — They are all fallen, and they have been under the Act. 8722. Can you state what has become of these women ? — Including Greenwich and Woolwich combined, we have 13 with friends; we have 35 in service; we have 10 in institutions, that is to say, we have put them there ; 24 married ; six emigrated ; six have died ; 21 have gone back to their evil life ; 25 unknown ; five drunken cases; and two restored to their husbands ; which makes 147 altogether. 8723. How many women in all have passed through your refuge since January, 1872? — I have only taken the cases that have come fi'om those two districts ; but since 1856 we have taken 3,361 ; that is the last number in the book last week. 8724. That is the total number of women of all classes who have passed through your home since that date ? — Yes. 8725. Could you give me any rough estimate of the proportion of those women who have been on the register and under the Acts ? — I should say not less than at least one-third. 8726. That would give, speaking roundly, about 1,100?— Yes. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 8727. Since what year is that? — Since 1856. 8728. Of course you are speaking now of women who must have come to you after the Acts were passed, that is to say, after the year 1866 ; and the Acts did not come into full opera- tion until 1870?— I have taken all cases that have come from Woolwich, and Greenwich, and Aldershot, from the inspector, and 1 have them hei-e. I have not meddled with the ordinary cases that came from anywhere in a casual manner. 8729. Could you give us, in a rough way, the number of women who have been on the register who have passed through your home ? — Two hundred and sixty-three. 8730. Is that from Aldershot and Greenwich and Woolwich alone ? — That is from Greenwich and Woolwich, and from Aldershot. 8731. I think the Acts came into operation in Greenwich in the year 1870 ? — I believe that the Act was commenced in 1870, but I am not quite sure. But we did not begin to take them from Dr. Barr and others in the sense in which we now take them till 1872. The other cases, of course, came from Woolwich of their own accord, and also from Greenwich. 8732. You have made no analysis of the women who have come from places other than Aldershot and Greenwich, and Woolwich, is that so? — Yes. 8733. Could you tell us how many women altogether who have been on the register, you have received into your home since 1870? — No, I could not say that; because other cases have gone to other homes. 8734. You said, I think, that there had been 263 from Aldershot, Woolwich, and Greenwich? — That is so. 8735. Of course you have had, therefore, ample opportunity of judging of the operation of the Acts upon those women ; have you read the evi- dence of the Bev. James Paterson Gledstone before this Committee? — I have not. 8736. I suppose that you knew Woolwich and Greenwich, and the surrounding neighbourhood before the passing of the Acts? — I have known it for 26 years. S737. Has the condition of the streets improved at all during the time that you have been there ? — In 1860 and 1861, and so on, it was a common thing for girls to go into the Shooter's Hill Wood when they were so diseased that they could not offer themselves to sin, and they were fed by girls who were on the streets ; and such girls have been in my house and testified to that fact ; and then they have gone to the union. 8738. Do you mean that they went to Shooter's Hill for immoral purposes? — No, they went there because they were so diseased that they could not earn anything ; and they were fit for nothing, and the consequence was that they had to be fed by these girls. 8739. Contrasting the condition of the streets in Greenwich and Woolwich with what it was when you first knew it, what have you to say ? — During the last week I have put myself to some trouble to go and inquire from some of the oldest inhabitants who have lived in the localities where those girls have lived. I went last night to two cabmen who have been, the one 40 years, and the X X 3 other 350 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOHE THE 2 June 1882.] Mr. Baxendale. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. other 30 years on the streets of Greenwich as cabmen, and I said to them ( 1 juit it as plainly as I could), " "\A'hat do you think of the streets now as regai'ds the girls, and what they were, we will say 10 or 20 years ago"? " Why," says one, " tlierc is not half the number ;" and the man who had been there ."50 years, said, " That is true." Then I asked them as to disorderly con- duct and so on, and the first man said, " It is quite a different tiling altogether." I asked four missionaries, whose names I can give if it is required. I asked one who has been there 26 years ; he entered the mission at the same time as I did ; he said, " "Well, when I was first here for the first five or six years, I could not go througli the streets without being accosted. Now, I have not been accosted for the last 8 or 10 years." I asked another, who lived in the district of Giffin-street and its locality, and in Bridge- street, where these girls lived, and he made the same statement, that there was quite a change in the way of decency and respectability. 8740. 1 think you mentioned that tliat statement was supported or corroborated by two cabmen and four missionaries; is that so? — Yes; and also by Mr. "NMiitterson, of High-street, who keeps a large boot and shoe shop, and who autho- rised me to use his name. His wife was prtsent at the time, and he said, " The streets arc de- cidedly better in Woolwich, and the girls are decidedly more decent and prudent." 8741. And one of the cabmen said there were fewer of them?— That is so. 8742. Did the cabman speak to you of what he had seen himself? — He answered my question which I put to him. 874.3. Did he speak to you from his own jier- sonal knowledge ? — Yes, decidedly so ; he had been 40 years on the cab rank. 8744. He spoke from what he had seen with his own eyes? — From what he had seen with his own eyes. 874o. So much as regards the external appear- ance of the streets. You have, of course, come personally in contact with a number of these women in your life ? — Yes. 8746. When they come to your home, what should you say as regards tlieir moral condition. Is it true that they are so hardened that they absolutely refuse to receive your ministrations or advice ? — If that Avere true this could not be true. Oue girl, who is living at Windsof, had been se\en years on the streets at Aldershot. She was so alcoholised that she could drink half- a-i)int of rum before breakfast. That woman, when she came to us, had delirium tremens three times. I got her into Guy's Hospital, and I spoke to her in these words, " Jennie, your only salvation, my girl, is this: let the drink alone, and put your foot u])on it." " God helping," she said, " I will." She was taken to Guy's Hos- pital, and she had delirium t)-e})iens there once. In nine weeks she came out, and I put her to service. While in the hospital, I should have said, they offered her brandy, and she refused it. Now she was brought under the ministry of the Bev. Mr. Serjeant, a Wesleyan minister. God's mercy took hold of her, and she is a converted girl and a member of the Wesleyan connection this day. I could mention more cases than that. ^Ir. Buhcer. 8747. Is she in service? — She was in service three years ago. 8748. Is she now in service? — She is now living a married life, a respectable life. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 874i). Could you give other instances of wlued. ]\Ir. Ilopwood — continued. 9090. Did flic magistrates ask questions about the jilaccs that Kilcii \'okes had been in as a ser- vant ? — I tliink not, but my recollection is that the solicitor said that she had been in service and that lie had some letters in his hand, but I do not think they were read. 9091. Did he offer them to the magistrates? — I should think it is very likely that he did. 9092. Did he give the names of any people with whom she had been ? — I do not recollect that they were named. I have some recollection of a name being mentioned in Aldershot where she had been living, but I will not be positive upon that [loint. 9093. I understand that j'our information about the case is only what Banks told you? — His report is brought to me and I have to act upon it. 9094. But before you act upon such a report do you not inquire ? — I put questions to the con- stable. I should have done so, no doubt. 9095. It is rather a serious thing to make this charge against a young woman if she has only been imprudent and nothing more ? -Yes. 9096. Before you took her before a magistrate would you not make it your business to inquire in the neighbourhood from others? — Yes, circum- stances would guide nie to do that in some cases, no doubt. 9097. Were there none to guide you here? — Ko, I do not know that I made any personal in- quiries about her. 9098. So far as you remember, you made none, but you acted upon Banks's evidence ? — Yes, I felt jici'fectly satisfied with his complaints. I may mention that at the adjournment of this case I brought a constable from Winchester to make a statement to the magistrates to show what her conduct was there, but they did not hear him. 9099. Da you mean that they refused to hear him? — Well, it was next to it, because it was a rebutting statement that I wished him to make, and tliey declined to hear him. 9100. Then do you complain of the magis- trates? — No, 1 do not complain of them. Mr. StansfeU. 9101. Do you attack the character of the girl now?— -No. 9102. Then j-ou believe that you were mis- taken wi(h regard to her character? — I had to be satisfied with the magistrates' decision. 9103. But I am asking you your own belief? — My belief at the time was that she should be a registered woman. 9104. Is that your belief now, or do you think that you made a mistake ? — I could not make a mistake. The constable may have made a mis- take. 9105. Do you not think it is a good thing that she was not put on the register ? — So far as I am personally concerned I think the less there are put on the better, and I should have been very pleased to see her doing something better. 9106 Then, as I understand, you have not an unfavourable opinion of her, and you are glad that she escaped the misfortune of being regis- tered ? —I do not know what the woman has been doing since. 91U7. But up to that time you think that it Mr. Stansfe/d — continued, was a good thing that she escaped being on the register ?— No ; 1 consider that she ought to have been registered at the time, and that was why I caused her to be summoned. 9108. But I ask you whether you think so now ? — I hardly know how to answer the ques- tion. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9109. Has anything occurred to alter your opinion ? — Not in the least up to that time. INIr. StansfeU. 9110. The decision of the magistrates has not altered your opinion ? — Not at that time. 9111. Is your opinion altered now in conse- quence of the decision of the magistrates ? — Not with regard to the proceedings. 9112. lain speaking of the character of the girl, whether she was at that time a prostitute or not ; I ask you whether the decision of the magistrates has altered the opinion that you then entertained about the girl ? — No, it has not. 9113. Therefore the opinion of the magistrates has had no effect upon your opinion ? — No ; 1 have my own opinion. 9114. And you still remain of the opinion that she was at tliat time a prostitute? — Yes, that she was then. 9115. That opinion being founded entirely upon the opinion of the police constable Banks ? — And uj)on what I knew besides. The con- stable from Winchester, who could have made a statement, was not heard. 9116. But you knew nothing personally ? — Not personally. 9117. Y''ou told my honourable and learned friend that Banks is still at Aldershot? — I think he is still at Aldershot. 9118. Are you prepared to say that he has been at Aldershot ever since that period ? — I think I may safely say he has ; I believe he has, but I will not say that he has. I do not belong to the division, and I do not know ; but I believe he has. 9119. Was that a verbatim report of the judg- ment of the magistrates that you have read? — Y'es. 9120. Who took it?— I did. 9121. And it was word for word? — Not as they escaped the lips of the magistrate exactly, because I jiut them into a different shape. 9122. Then it was not verbatim, but it was what you believe to be an accurate report .' — Y'es. 9123. In the evidence given before us by Mr. Shaen we had a statement put in which was made by Ellen Yokes; have you read that state- ment?- — No, I have not. 9124. Then you are, of course, not prepared to question its accuracy ? — I have not read it. 9125. I find in the statement of Banks, which you have repeated to-day, that she was sujiposed to have been seen upon several occ.isicms with a soldier of the 60th Rifles ? — Of the lst-60th Bifle.s. 912R. Do you know who that soldier was? — No, 1 do not. 9127. Do you know whether he was a young man with whom sh.e was keejting company? — That i SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 365 2 June 1882.] Inspector Wenham. \_Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. That was the reason alleged for her being with a soldier. 9 1 :^8. And you know nothing to the contrary ? — She might have been keeping company with him, but she was going with others also. 9129. You mean to say that she was seen in the streets with others ? — She was seen with others benides him. 9130. But is it so extraordinary a thing that a young woman who is engaged to a soldier, should, to a certain extent, be in company with his comrades ? — The circumstances connected with her being in the company of these men was the point. 9131. But what were the suspicious circum- stances in your mind ? — G oing to various places drinking, and being in secret places with them. 9132. Is there any evidence of that nature ? — res. 1 think that the statement of the constable is to that effect. 9133. That constable stated that on the 22nd of November he saw two soldiers treat her and another woman, and that on the 30th of Novem- ber he saw her at the music hall at North Camp Hotel, aud that she left with an artilleryman and returned in 15 minutes, and that he watched her leave the hall with a 60th Rifleman and go to Begg's house ; that he watched her on the 4th, 6th, 9th, and 15th of December, with men of the 60th Rifles, and with the same bandsman ; are you aware that in cross-examination the police- man (I suppose it was the policeman, Banks,) admitted that he could not say whether the private of the 60th Rifles was not the same soldier that he had seen her with on other occasions ? — 1 do not think he could have made that admission. 9134. Can you deny it? — I have not a state- ment of his evidence before me. 9135. Therefore you cannot deny it; when a policeman gives it in evidence against a girl that she has been seen with soldiers of a certain regiment upon various evenings, if it turns out all to have been one and the same soldier, it detracts a good deal from the importance of his evidence, does it not ? — I should not have sum- moned her if she had been with this soldier distinct from any others. 9136. Her statement is distinctly that the policeman (I suppose it was Banks) admitted that he could not say whether the private of the 60th Rifles was not the same soldier that he had seen her with on other, occasions ; are you pre- pared to deny the accuracy of that statement? — I cannot deny that statement. 9137. The girl says distinctly, "While I was at Mrs. Birchall's, a young man, named Charles Richards, of the 60th Rifles, who was on provost duty, kept company with me, and I occasionally went out with him in the evening, and about once a week went with him to the North Camp Music Hall, a place of entertainment not far from Peabody-road ; " there is nothing necessarily suggestive of her being a prostitute in her going out occasionally with a soldier of the 60th Rifles, and going with him once a week to the North Camp Music Hall, is there? — There is no harm in anyone going to a music hall. 9138. That is a kind of thing which happens, G.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. is it not, when a young man and a young woman keep company ? — Yes; but then she was asso- ciating with other men apart from this person. 9139. Does it strike you that there is anything necessarily suggestive of ])rostitution in her associating with the comrades of that man who may be her future husband? — Yes. 9140. Then your theory of your duty is to suspect a woman of prostitution, and to endeavour to place upon the register every young woman who keeps company not only with a soldier, but also with his comrades ? — No. 9141. Then, what is your theory? — Nothing is done or ever was done by me, in any instance, to bring a woman on the register, unless I was perfectly satisfied that she was misbehaving her- self, aud acting as a common woman, which I believe this woman was doins. 9142. You have suggested to me that if a woman keeps company not only with one soldier but with a number of his comrades, that is a suspicious circumstance ; do I rightly under- stand you as meaning this : that if you see a young woman in one of these districts keeping company with several soldiers, unless you know that that one man and his comrades are not strangers to one another, you assume that is a suspicious circumstance ? — If it is coupled with their gomg into secret places. 9143. Will you tell us into what secret places she went, when, and with whom ? — Only what is stated in the report. 9144. Will you point out in the report what are the secret places mentioned ? — In the first instance she is charged with accosting a bands- man of the 82nd Regiment, and taking him home. 1 should have arrived at the conclusion at once, that if she was engaged to the soldier of the Rifles, that would be the last thing she would do. 9145. If you see a woman whom you suppose to be engaged to a soldier in the Rifles with a soldier of another regiment, you draw an inference against her? — The constable witnesses her accost this bandsman and take him home, and the soldier remained 15 minutes. 9146. But where was that? — At the North Camp Hotel. 9147. Was that in a secret place? — No, that is a public-house. 9148. What kind of place was this home to which she took him ; do you know anything about the home? — T know the place. 9149. Who lives in that house ? — Several per- sons lived in the house at that time. 9150. With whom did she live ? — I forget the woman's name now. 9151. Do you know with whom she lived? — No. 9152. All you know is that she accosted a soldier, according to your information, and that they went together to the house in which she lived ? — Yes, that is one case that was spoken of against her. 9153. What other case was spoken of? — Two other soldiers lett her soon after. 9154. So she says in her statement. Are you aware that she refers to these facta in her own statement ? — No, I have not read her state- ment. z z 3 9155. Do 366 MINUTKS OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUK THE 2 June 1882.1 Inspector Wenham. [^Continued. Mr. Stansf eld— continued. 9155. Do I understand you to deny in any way that you have interfered with her earning an honest livelihood ? — Certainly. 9156. Do you mean to say that no constable under you interfered with her earning an honest livelihood ? — Not to my knowledge. 9157. Do you deny that Banks went after her employers and prejudiced vhem against her? — I am not aware that he did such a thing ; I should be very .«onT to know that he did it. 9158. For instance, I find in her statement she says this : " On the night of the 3rd of December I went home to Mrs. Birchall's about nine o'clock, and I was surprised to find the door locked against me. I knocked for half-an-hour, but was not admitted; finding I could not get in, I went to the house of Mrs. Hoffman, who also worked for Mrs. Birchall, and she kindly took me into their small house, and her husband slept in a chair during that night.* On inquiring the following day for the cause of my being locked out, I found that the police had been to Mr. Birchall and threatened him that, if he did not get rid of me, he would report him to his com- manding officer and get him punished for har- bouring a prostitute." Are you prepared to tell us that there is no foundation for that state- ment ? — I do not know that there is any founda- tion for it. 9159. Mr. Shaen, whose evidence has been referred to, never, according to my recollection, brought in your name with regard to a police- man going to the girl's employer; he used the name of Banks, the policeman, and Banks is not called, but you are called. Then she goes on to eay, " From the time that I was at the police station, I found that the same policeman was constantly dogging my steps where I went, and I was told that he inquired of the various per- sons I spoke to whether they knew anything about me." You will, I believe, admit that these proceedings, mistakenly taken against an innocent girl were of a character to damage her position ■« ith regard to those who employed her ? — No, I do not. 9160. You think that if a girl is entirely inno- cent, and if you or your subordinates are entirely mistaken in supposing that she was a prostitute, this constant dodging of her steps and inquiring about her, and suggesting to people that they will be taken up for harbouring a prostitute, is not likely to damage her character? — It may be, but I do not know that these things were done. 9161. I do not say so, but supposing a sus- picion of this kind to be unfounded, is it not a serious injury to an innocent girl to be followed, as it appears to be thought necessary for a police- man to follow her about? — The following is done witli very great discretion, and it cannot possibly excite annoyance, and no person can know that they are being watched if they are innocent per- sons. 9162. Ellen Vokes was declared by the magis- trates to be innocent, and I find that Mr, Bir- chall, with whom she was staying, was warned that he would lose his pension for harbouring a prostitute ; do you think that that was not calcu- lated to damage her? — I should think it might be if she was an innocent person, living as a prudent girl ought to be living. Mr. Staiixfeld — continued. 9163. But even if she was imprudent, would it not damage her ?— I do not see how it could if her character was bad. 9164. .Supjjosiug that a girl was not a prosti- tute but only imprudent, you do not think that it damages her to be believed to be a prostitute? — It would depend upon what source such a thing came from. 9165. We will take it as coming from the police who follow her and suggest that she is lead- ing the life of a prostitute ; if she is not doing so, but is only a little imprudent, do you not think that the action of the police is calculated to damage her? — Not with the view that the police took of her conduct, because I do still believe that she ought to have been a registered woman at the time. 9166. But not as a prostitute ? — I believed her to be so at the time, and I do now. 9167. You maintain still that she was a prosti- tute in face of the decision of the magistrate ; supposing you to have been wrong in this judg- ment which you took ujion yourself to exercise, was not your action towards her, in directing her to be followed and reported against, calculated to damage her; are you not able to admit that if, by mistake of judgment, attributing no improper motive to you, you watched and followed, or di- rected to be watched and followed, and treated as a prostitute who ought to be put upon the re- gister, an innocent girl, you do damage to that girl ? — If she is an innocent person I should be damaging her, but my firm belief was, and is now, that slie was acting as a prostitute. 9168. I understand you now to admit that if the girl is innocent, you damage her by the methods which you pursue? — If she is a re- S])ectable woman. 9169. I suppose you think it not an absolute impossibility that you should commit a mistake of judgment? — Mistakes can be made, but I do not think any mistake was made in this instance. 9170. In that respect you differ from tlie magistrates ? — I must say that I do. Dr. Farquharson. 9171. The opinion of the magistrates about the innocence of this girl was not very decided, was it ? — No, it was not. 9172. They stated that they gave her the benefit of the doubt ? — Yes. 9173. They said "We are divided in our 0]nnion ; the police are justified in doing what they have ; the defendant has been very indis- creet, and should be more circumspect, she had better leave the neighbourhood ; having a doubt, we give her the benefit of it, and dismiss the summons ; " therefore there was a doubt in the case, and it was something like a Scotch verdict of not proven, was it not?— Yes. 9174. We have heard about the damaging effect on a girl of an accusation which may not be entirely substantiated, but would not the imprudence which a girl would manifest and which would give rise to such an accusation be equally damaging to her prospects ; a girl cannot be seen about under suspicious circumstances in a town without having her prospects as a virtuous girl damaged, can she ? — No. 9175. The fact of the imprudence which «ould render 9 SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 367 2 Jiine 1882.] Inspector Wenham. [^Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued, render the action of the police possible, would be damaging to her prospects and eciually damaging as the accusation itself might be ? — Yes ; because continuing to behave in this way she would eventually be registered as a prostitute. 9176. Is it not possible that if this woman had not been pulled up by the police in the middle of her career, she might have gone entirely to the bad and become a real prostitute ? — It is possible that she may have done so now. I do not know what became of her afterwards. 9177. In your experience have you ever found that any woman had any difficulty in getting off the register ? — None at all if they conduct them- selves properly. Sir Henry Wolff. 9178. You have had some experience at Aldershot, have you not?— I was there two years only. 9179. You are not there now ? — No. 9180. Therefore, you cannot know of your own knowledge whether Banks is still there ? — I believe he is, but I cannot positively say so. 9181. Had you ever any occasion to report unfavourably against him in any other case? — No. 9182. What you have read is the report that you made to the Commissioner upon the usual application form, asking authority to lay an information against Yokes : "On the 21st No- vember, Banks saw her take home a bandsman of the 82nd Regiment from the North Camp Hotel. On the 22nd November, she was seen in the Lynchford-road drinking with two soldiers of the l-60th Rifles. On the 30th of November, the police constable saw her in the North Camp Music Hall the whole evening. She left at 9 p.m. with a soldier of the Royal Artillery ; she entered the camp and remained 15 minutes, returned to the public-house, and again left at 9.30 p.m. with a Serjeant of the l-60th Rifles, taking him home with her, where he remained till 10.5 p.m. On the 4th of December 1880 the same police constable saw her accost a cor- poral of the l-60th Rifles, both of whom entered the Elephant and Castle beerhouse, where they drank together and left. They went into the Peabody-road, where they remained 1 5 minutes. At 9 p.m. he saw her leave the Elephant and Castle beerhouse with a bandsman of the 82nd Regiment, and both of them went to the Peabody- road and remained there 20 minutes. On the 6th of December the same police constable saw her leave home at 7 p.m. with a soldier of the l-60th Rifles." Those are different regiments. In your opinion, as having experience at Aider- shot, were those people likely to be each other's comrades? — I should say not. 9183. The comrades of soldiers are generally men of their own regiment, are they not ? — As a rule. 9184. 'I'herefore, if you had seen her with other soldiers, or if she had been seen with other soldiers of the l-60th Rifles, there would not have been the same presumption of her being a prostitute as if she was seen with soldiers of different regiments? — -We should look upon her with suspicion, and watch her. It would depend 0.75. Sir Henry Wolff — continued, upon where and under what circumstances you saw her, and the surroundings of the case. 9185. As a matter of fact soldiers' comrades are generally men of the same regiments, are they not ? — Yes, as a rule. 9186. The decision of the magistrates, although it was to a certain extent against you, did not at all alter your view of the position of this woman ? — No, not the slightest. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9187. The decision of the magistrates justified your action, did it not? — It did, to a certain extent. Mr. Cavendish Bentinch. 9188. Do you known of your own knowledge whether at the time when the summons was heard against Ellen Yokes, she was in service as a domestic servant ? — I believe she was not in ser- vice then. 9189. She was represented by a solicitor? — Yes. 9190. Were you represented by a solicitor ? — No. 9191. Do you happen to know whether she paid the solicitor herself? — I cannot tell. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9192. You had no professional assistance? — None at all. Mr. Hopwood. 9193. But you might have had if you had liked ? — I do not know. I did not apply for any. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 9194. According to this judgment delivered by the bench when the summons was dismissed, the magistrate said, "the defendant has been very indiscreet and should be more circumspect, she had better leave the neighbourhood ; " did Ellen Yokes leave the neighbourhood after the dis- missal of the summons ? — I believe she did after- wards. 9195. How long were you at Aldershot after the summons was dismissed? — INot long. 9196. How long? — I came away in the early part of ilarch. 9197. You were there three months after- wards? — Two or three months afterwards. 9198. Did you see her again? — I did not see her afterwards. 9199. Was she ever reported to you afterwards by the constables under your command as having been seen by them ? — No ; he brought no mis- conduct of her's under my notice. I cannot tell whether she was there. I did not see her there. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9200. How was this girl getting her livelihood at the time this took place ? — She was not doing anything that I am aware of. Chairman. 9201. Were you jDresent during the whole of the hearing ? — Yes, both days. 9202. Did you hear the police constable cross- examined ? — Yes ; he was cross-examined by the solicitor. 9203. By Mr. Eve, the solicitor for the girl ? — Yes. 9204. Can you remember whether any ques- tions were put to him as to his interfering with z z 4 this 3Gfi MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 2 J uiie 1882.] Inspector Wenham. [Continued. Chairman — continued, this girl's mode of getting lier livelihood? — No, I cannot. 9205. Do YOU mean to say that no such questions were put to hira, or that you do not remember ? — I do not remember. It is a thiui^ that he would not do. 9206. You, of course, were there in your capacity as inspector ? — Yes. 9027. Was there any charge made in the course of tlie cross-examination about tlie police having sent word to her employer, or to tiie person with whom she was living, that he would lose his half- pay if he continued to harbour her? — I do not know that there was, but it is a long time ago since this sunmions was heard, and I cannot tax myself with everything that took place. Mr. Stansfeld. 9208. Are you prepared to say that the girl did not retain the solicitor and i)ay him herself? — No, I am not prepared to say that she did not do so. 9209. You know nothing about it? — I do not know anything about it. 9210. You have been asked what means of living she had ; do you know now whether she was not regularly employed by Mrs. Birchall as a laundry-maid ?— No, I do not know. 9211. Therefore, with regard to these two questions, her employment of the solicitor and her means of living, you have no knowledge ? -No. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 369 Tuesday, 6th June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Burt. Dr. Cameron. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Shaughnessy. Mr. Stansfeld. Sir Henry WoliF. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair Ebenezer Fenn, sworn ; and further Examined. Chairman. 9212. You will listen to certain answers which you gave on the last day you were examined, and which I shall read to you, and you will tell me if you have any further statements to make with regard to them. You were asked by Mr. Hop- wood, at Question 7116, on page 302, this question : " I still want to know what made you tell Mathews this " (referring to the information that you gave Mathews about the girl Southby) ; " was it for his duty ? " and you answered, " Yes, for his duty, that is all. I had no instruction to interfere in these cases, only to report the cases to these officers under the Act." The next question is : " You are to do that ? " to which your answer was, " Yes." Then you were asked, at Question 7119: "Did I understand you to say that there is an order to the general local police given by their superiors to report these cases to the metropolitan police ? " and you said, " Yes, from my superintendent.'' Then you were asked to give his name, and you answered, " Superintendent Saunders." Then at Question 7125, you were asked this: "You swear that he " (that is Mr. Saunders) " has given you in- structions to report these cases to the metropo- litan police ? " and your answer was : " I would not swear to that positively." Then you were asked: "Why did you say it just now; what were your instructions ? " and your answer was : " Instructions not to report it to our place ; not to report it to our station, not to our superior officer ; but to report it to the men under the Act." Then at Question 7127, 1 asked you this: " Have you got instructions to report it to the police constables acting under the Act ? " and you replied: "Yes." Then Mr. Hopwood said : " You swear that ? " and your answer was. Chairman — continued. " Yes." Then the next question is : "I thought just now you had a difficulty about that ; do you say that you have instructions given to you by your superintendent, Mr. Saunders ? " and you said, " Yes." Then you are asked : " To report these cases to the metropolitan police ? " and your answer was, " Under the Act." Then he says, " That you swear?" and you say, "Yes." Do you wish now to make any statement with re- gard to that evidence ? — Yes ; it is quite a mis- take on my part that I said that. There was no order at all from my superintendent. I always understood that it was an order. 9213. But you now say that there is no such order at all? — No. 9214. Have you learnt that since? — Yes. 9215. And you admit that you were under a wrong impression upon that subject before? — Yes. 9216. There has been no order, in writing or by word of mouth, or otherwise ? — No ; I always understood that it was an order. 9217. But you have learnt that, as a matter of fact, there is no such order ? — Yes. Mr. Hopwood. 9218. From whom did you understand that there was an order ? — I always understood so from the others, from the talking amongst the other police constables. 9219. You see that I gave you a very fair op- portunity, and I asked you many times as to who gave you the order, and you said Superintendent Saunders ? — I did. 9220. That is not correct ? — No, that is not correct. Mr. Barnard Charles Miller, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9221. I believe that you have carried on business as an undertaker in Portsmouth for the last 33 years, have you not? — 1 have, there- abouts. 9222. Your business has principally lain amongst the poor, has it not ? — Yes. 0.75. Mr. Osborne A/or^aw — continued. 9223. And I believe you have interred over 16,000 persons, have you not? — Yes. 9224. I presume therefore that you have full knowledge of Portsmouth, and have had an opportunity of comparing the condition of the town and its surroundings both in past and 3 A present 370 MIXUTES Ol KVIPKNCK TAKKK UEFORE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. \ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. ])rc?cnt times ? — I have, to the fullest ex- tent. 9225. You arc a member of the corporation of Portsmouth, are you not r — I am. 922fi. How long have you been a member of the corporation ? — I was first elected in the year 1868, getting on 14 years ago. 9227. Have you taken an active part in the afl'airs of the borough ? — I have. 9228. As regards the sanitary condition of the jilace, and the death rate, liave you any remarks to make ? — Yes ; our town has greatly improved as regards its death rate. 9229. 1 believe that with other large towns it compares favourably, as regards the death late, does it not ? — Yes. 9230. Do you attribute that in any way to the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? —I do, certainly. y2.'51. In what way ? — The improved health of the women, and the diminished number of deaths amongst that class; and also the unproved health of tlic soldiers, and of the soldiers' wives and children, and of other peojile also, has I con- eider greatly diminished the death rate. 9232. In addition to that beneficial result, are there any other advautai^eous results that can in your opinion be fairly attributed to the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — Previously to the introduction of these Acts into Portsmouth the common prostitutes of that town were, I should think, the most degraded class of women upon earth. Brothel keepers held them in a state of bondage that they could scarcely dis- enthral themselves from. 1 know several brothel keepers who have made fortunes at that sort of thing. 9233. As compared with that state of things which you say existed beibre the Acts came into operation, what is the state of things now ? — Altogether different, to a very great extent. 9234. In what pariicular respects? — Brothel keeping has ceased to be a lucrative business. 9235. To wiiat do you attribute that ? — I attribute it in a great measure to the operaiion of the Acts, by greatly diminishing the number of common wonien in the town. 9236. Is it a fact that the number of common ■women in the town has diminished since the Acts came into operation ? — Oh, yes, I am sure of it. I have a list here of over 200 small tene- ments that to my certain knowledge were formerly occujiied by common ])rostitutes ; and there are now many of them taken down, and many have fallen to nnn for want of occu])ants. 9237. Have you a map of Portsmouth, which would show the ch;inge which has taken place ? — I intended to have brought a map, but un- fortunately I have brought another book in- stead. 9238. You say that there are 200 houses which were originally brothels, but the character of •whose occupants has now been changed ? — Yes, or many of the houses have gone to ruin. 9239. That is to say, there were 200 houses which were formerly used by women living in them for the purposes of prostitution ? — Yes. 9240. Could you give me any idea within what time that change has taken place ? — Every year I consider that the condition of things is Mr. Osborne MoTf/an — continued, better. As soon as the Acts came into operation in Portsmouth, brothel keepers had attention called to their business. Many pensioners kept brothels, and they knew that when notice was taken of that they were liable to lose their jien- sions ; and in that way a great many people ceased to keep that sort of place. 9241. In what way would that forfeiture of pensions be brought about ? — The metropolitan police would inform those people that the Government authorities would oe communicated with, and they would be liable to lose their pen- sions if they continued it. 9242. Do you know of your own knowledge that the metropolitan police did so inform the authorities ? — 1 know several men who lost their pensions ; I know one man, named Sugarow, a notorious (ffender. 9243. Did he persist in keejjing a brothel ? — He persisted in keeping one. 9244. AVith what result ? — He went to the workhouse. 9245. His pension was forfeited ? — Yes, cer- tainly ; and very properly to. 9246. That is one very good reason why tlic number of brothels should be decreased. I think you also spoke of the greatly diminished number of jirostitutes ? — Yes. 9247. To what cause, whether in connection with the Contagious Diseases Acts or not, do you attribute that diminution in the number of j)ros- titutes ? — At one time the frightful example of prostitution was so great in Portsmouth that it contaminated all around ; young people's minds were contaminated, and it was looked upon as a matter of course. The result was that young gills easily fell astray, and they used to go about as little common sly " dolly-mops," for a long time before it broke out. That state of things is entirely altered. The metropolitan police warn them, and they warn their parents. Many a time the jiarents would not hesitate to see their daughters come home with bits of finery and things that they knew very well the girls had not honestly earned. Is'^ow they know if those girls pursue this course, the inevitable result is that the girls go to the hospital ; and they are warned that that will be the result if they continue that course of life. 9248. I understand you to mean that these Acts and the powers given to the metropolitan police under them, deter women from i'allinginto a life of prostitution ; is that so? — Considerably. ) may say that of course sailors are a better class of men than they used to be, and the \ia.y that they earn is better; but in the bad old times saihn-s' wives with 15 s. or 1 /. a month, having to pay perhaps 2 5. or 3 s. a week for a furnished room out of that, supplemented their income by prostitution ; and they used these houses to a very great extent. That is altogether altered, be- cause a sailor's wife knows now that if she goes to a brothel she is likely to be watched, and that in all probability her husband will be communi- cated with, and she will lose her half-pay, or she thinks so, at any rate. That stoj)S that sort of thing. 9249. T gather that you are not of the same opinion as some of tlu' witnesses against the Acts, that clandestine prostitution has increased in Portsn)outh I SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 371 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. \_Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. Portsmouth since the Acts? — No, it has greatly diminished for this reason, that a common woman, if she saw what is termed a sly "dolly-mop," would imagine, and rightly so, that her business was being interfered with, and it would be soon stopped. The number of common prostitutes in Portsmouth, at one time, was so overwhelming that there was not accommodation sufficient for them in the brothels, and when a woman became so diseased as to be unremunerative to the people who kept her, she was turned into the streets. 9250. To die ? — Yes ; they slejit about in the arches under the ramparts, anywhere and every- where. 9251. Like animals, in fact? — They were; they were worse than slaves in the West Indies: they were bound hand and foot to the brothel keeper. A woman living two doors from me, at No. 1, St. Mary-street, had her house full of prostitutes from the attic to the cellar, and she kept them in the cellar sleeping on straw, unless they were fortunate enough to take a man home who would pay for a bed for them ; and their only means of access to that cellar was a ladder straight up and down. 9252. You are now speaking of a fact within your own knowledge ? — Yes ; two doors from me on the other side there was another brothel, equally as bad. 9253. You said, just now, that the operation ofithese Acts tends to deter women from coming on the streets ; it has been stated by several witnesses against the Acts that when they are once on the register no facilities whatever are offered them to escape from that life ; is that your experience ? — I should say that the person who gave that evidence knew very little of the business. Every facility is given in many cases, I should say in every case, at least in Ports- mouth, where a woman desires to be taken off the register, and gives a fair reason. 9254. As a matter of fact, do you know that many of them do escape from a life of prosti- tution? — lean look round Portsmouth, and see a large number of women who, since the inti-o- duction of the Acts, have abandoned that life, and become decent married women. 9255. And who are now living as respectable members of society ? — Yes ; as far as they can be. 9256. You said you looked upon that as one of the results of the Contagious Diseases Acts ; in what way does the machinery of the Conta- gious Diseases Acts produce that result? — T believe that disease at one time was so prevalent in Portsmouth that scarcely a common prostitute was free from It, and that as soon as a young girl was led astray she quickly became diseased. Under the old system our parish doctor, Moses Plercy, had 40 I. a year to look after the whole population of 10,000, and he had in his district, I should think, 300 or 400 prostitutes. He had to find medicine out of the 40 I. a year ; he told me so himself. 9257. Did that include the medicine ? — Yes ; there were certain fees for lying-in cases, and setting bones. 9258. What became of these women, as a matter of fact, if they were not cured? — They lav about in their frightful places of abode till 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, they died ; and if they could be pushed into the streets they were so ; and they would wander about at night snapping up people's sons. 9259. Is it the fact that at that time these women were so rotten with disease that it was really impossible for them. If they had wished to do so, to turn to a respectable life ? — There was no hope for them. Suicides were frequent amongst them. I have helped upon several occasions to pull them out of the water. I have burled numbers of women who had drowned themselves. The means of getting rid of life was so easy in the mllldam and the Camber, that over they used to go. In the last stage of despair. 926u. In fact, they were in such an awful condition of body that it would have been im- possible for them to have turned to a virtuous condition of life? — It would; there was no chance for them. Marriage amongst common prostitutes was a very rare thing Indeed. I know an old bawd who used to stick out a wreath about once In every year or two, when one of these women got married, because the wedding of a prostitute was thought a great thing. 92GI. Whereas now, I suppose, the physical condition of the women being better, their chances of moral reclamation are to that extent greater ? — Especially amongst the young begin- ners ; they go to the hospital. 9262. Do you know whether, when they are in the hospital, they are subjected to any moral or religious influence or instruction? — Yes, I know the chaplain, Mr. Lovell, intimately. He was the chaplain to our borough gaol; a very good man. 9263. Are you aware whether he does his best to reclaim these women ? — Yes, and then there is time for reflection, and these unhappy girls, many of them, have seen the folly of it la a very little while. 9264. And you think then that their being placed in the hospital and being cured of physical disease, and being also subject to proper moral and religious instruction and ministration in the hospital, put them in the way of beginning life anew ? — I am quite certain of it. 9265. As a matter of fact, you find that they do that? — They do ; Christian men and women slmn them as they would shun the plague. It Is all vei-y well to talk about the agencies for le- formation ; it Is all nonsense at Portsmouth. We have only one place there called the female penitentiary, Mrs. Colebrook's, and siie is quite full. It is in a languishing condition for want of funds, and they cannot see their way to enlarge it. 9266. You know Mr. Cesser, the chief con- stable of Portsmouth, I presume ? — I do. 9267. Have you read the evidence that he has given before this Committee .' — 1 have ; I have it here. 9268. I see that, at Question 851, he was asked by Air. Stansfeld this question : " How have private brothels been dealt with ? " And he answered, ",When prosecuted they have been prosecuted by the local police upon the action of two informers." (Q.) "Under the Act of George III.?" (^.) " That is so." Now, does that tally with your experience ? — The answer to that is strictly correct ; but my reply to that 3 a2 is 372 MINITES UV EVIDENCK TAKEN UEFOKE HIE 6 June 1882] Mr. Miller. [^Continued, Mr. Osborne Morgan — continuci!. is that, within my ex]icriencc. the prosorutioiis have been very lew indeed. In Kinjjc Williiim- placc, rcc-cntly, two or tliree jiersons living in that neigiibourhood were prosecuted on tlie action of two informers. That jirosecution cost tlie town nearly 200 /. The inlormcrs got a fee, I believe. It was considered by persons well able to judge of these things, that it was a very ill- advised Jirosecution, and our present Recorder merely sentenced them to come up for judgment ■when called upon. The result is that the people, with one exception, live there now and carry on the same business. That is within my knowledge. I have been into the house very recently, and buried a woman from there ; she was a common Jjrostitute, and a gentleman took her and kept ler, and she was relieved from attending the hospital. 9289. She got off the register, I suppose ?— Yes ; the man who kept her was a rich fellow, squandering his money as fast as ever he could. That was with respect to one case recently. Then the same thing happened at a place called Church-path, Landport, and that cost the parish of Portsea also a large sura ; the assistant sur- veyor told me that it cost 160 /. ; and it resulied in the woman removing from No. 6, you rnay say, to No. 7, and letting the house to one of its former occupants. That is all that the police have done in the suppression of jirivate brothels. They did close a house in a place caled Clarence- street, leading off Charlotte-street, and another place in Crcswell-strcet, the place that Mr. Cesser mentioned here. 9270. To your knowledge, is that all that the local police have done in the way of shutting up brothels? — There was a house called the "Dog Toby," and that house belonged to a firm of brewers, and it had its license taken away by the magistrates. 9271. That was in consequence of the action of the local police?— Yes. Now the tenant ha? bought that house and he is carrying on a very much more extensive business now, without the surveillance of the police than he used to do. Cliairman. 9272. Do you mean a business in liquor ? — No ; in brothel keeping. People go in there and they pretend to send out for what is wanted, as they do in an eating house. Mr. Osborne J[Jorgan. 9273. I am alraid that the prosecutions lo which Mr. Cosser alludes, have not, in your opinion, been very effective? — They have been altogether inoperative. The house that he alludes to in AVarblington-street, called the ' Albion," had four or five small tenements attached to it. The house was closed, and of course, having lost its license, it was sold for a mere song and converted into stores ; but the tenements adjoining, where the evil existed, are now occupied by prostitutes and rated to the step- son of a beerhouse keeper. 9274. "When, therefore, you speak of this large diminution in the number of brothels, you attri- bute the shutting up of these brothels to other causes than the prosecution of the police? — I Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, attribute it to the diminished number of common women, and to the women iieingof a more decent class now, and getting into better neighbour- hoods. 9275. I think you also said that some of these houses were kept by pensioners who were deterred from carrying on their trade by the fear of losing their pensions? — That is so. 9276. And that would be upon the information of the metropolitan police ? — Yes ; in fact our police have no instructions to deal with this thing at all. I have been a member of the watch com- mittee of the borough of Portsmouth for some years, and I know we would not care for our police to do it. We select young men, and we will not have our young men pottering about with this thing; it would be very unwise to allow them to do so. In fact it was offered to us by the late Home Secretary, to j)lace these metropolitan police under the control of the watch committee. He wrote to the watch com- mittee, asking them if they woidd be willing to take the superintendence of the metiopolitan police who were occupied outside of the dock- yard, 'i'he committee jjaid a considerable amount of attention to my knowledge of these things, and I showed them that it would be injudicious to allow our men to have anything to do with the business of that kind ; either that, or picking up stragglers, soldiers, sailors, and others, and deserters. 9277. AYill you kindly look at Question No. 861, of Mr. Cesser's evidence, on page 34, where he is asked this by Mr. Stansfeld : " With regard to beerhouses, you produced a consider- able and immediate effect, as I understand, in 1869: can you give us the exact number?" And his answer was : " In 1869 the number was returned as 617, and as 567 in 1870, being- a diminution of 50." Then Mr. Stansfeld says : " I suppose all those 50 were not beerhouses used as brothels? {A.) Not all, but the majority of them were. ( Q.) And they lost their licenses inconsequence? {A.') Tiiey did. {Q,-) And all the work, as I understand you, connected with the refusal of those licenses, and the closing of the houses, was done by the local jjolice, without any assistance from the Contagious Diseases Acts police? {_A.) Certainly'' ? — That is so. 9278. "Will you be kind enough to tell me whether you have any remark to make upon that? — Yes. in St. ilary-street, w4ien I com- menced business in 1850, there Avere five licensed public-houses. As soon as the Crimean War commenced a music hall was built there. That gradually attracted a number of women to the street, and a large number of beerhouses sprang up there, until the street was nearly full of beer- houses. They were so numerous that the sale of beer would not kuop tliem, and they had recourse to the keeping of women as well, if not in the beerhouses, at least in the tenements and places adjoining. Finding my business suffering day by day, and having an interest in the j^roperty in which I lived, I was anxious to remedy it, and I appealed most strongly from time to time for some remedy for that state of things, and 1 was constantly speaking to Mr. Barber, the late superintendent, who is living now, and he used to point out that the only thing I could do was to go SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 373 ^ June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — contmued. go with a neighbour as a common informer, and prosecute them at quarter sessions. That I did not feel inclined to do, because they were so numerous. When there was the alteration in the system of licensing, taking it away from the excise and giving it to the magistrates, Mr. Barber came to me, and said, " Now is your opportunity." Consequently, when the licensing session came on I was invited to appear before the magistrates. I gave evidence, of course, cor- roborating the statement of the police, and every beerhouse license in St. Mary-street, except one, was taken away. 9279. When was the change in the licensing law? — It says here, in 1869, or thereabouts ; it was at the October sessions. 9280. I understand that you resisted the re- newal of these licenses, and therefore it was in consequence of your action that they were re- fused ? — Mr. Barber, the superintendent, invited me to do it. These houses, of course, did not get rid of the inhabitants ; the same people remained in ihem, and they carried on a very much worse state of things. There was a woman that I was alluding to at 21, St. Mary-street, who was fined 5 I., and I went up there, and I heard one of the magistrates say that the condition of things in her house was so horrible that it was almost past belief; that men and women went to bed together in a common room indiscriminately. She would not take up the license at the next sessions, and she continued for years. 9281. Do I rightly understand you to say that, although it is quite true, as Mr. Cesser states, that the licenses of these beerhouses were taken away, yet, nevertheless, the trade of brothel keeping was still carried on in them ? — Yes. and it is now done to this moment; in fact, I be- lieve the street is in a worse condition now than it was before the beer licenses were taken away. The police had then some control, but now they 9282. Have there been any prosecutions against houses for brothel keeping ? — Yes, occasion- ally wherp they have been detected in the sale of beer. 9283. But notwithstanding that you say that the business of brothel keeping is still carried on by the occupants of those houses ; is that so ? — Yes. There was a man who kept the " Golden Bell " in St. Mary-street, some 14 or 15 years ago, and he was prosecuted, not for keeping women in the house, but for allowing them to assemble at his bar. The solicitor to the Licensed Victuallers' Association, a very clever fellow (I forget his name) came from London and defended the man. The magistrates dismissed the case. 9284. I suppose that the publicans' interest in Portsmouth, as in other places, is rather strong, is it not? — It is very strong in Portsmouth. One-fourth of the members of our town council are interested, directly or indirectly, in public- house business, and I think there are seven members of the watch committee, also brewers, or spirit dealers. 9285. You were speaking of the keeper of this public-house called the " Golden Bell ; " he was summoned for harbouring prostitutes, was he not ? — Yes. 9286. And the summon.s was dismissed. Do 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, you know whether he still continues that trade ? — The man became a little more careful, and he used to turn them out ; but the magistrates felt that those women must have refreshment some- where. 9287. Let me read to you another passage froni Mr. Cesser's evidence. At Question 896, he _ is asked : " Have you any public-houses which are used as brothels in the borough now ? " And he says, " Not one, to my knowledge " ?— I should not think it is to his knowledge. 9288. But is it to your knowledge ?— Yes, quite within my knowledge. I know that public- houses exist, and that the tenements adjoining exist, and that dummies are put up as being the ratepayers. I have often sought for those rate- payers at election times, and found that they were non-existent. 9289. Let me read to you another passage from his evidence. At Question 871 he is asked this : " So that this result has been brought about, if I understand you correctly; that at present there are no public-houses or beerhouses used as brothels in Portsmouth at all .?" And his answer is : " That is so." Your experience enables you to contradict that ? — That is so as regards the houses themselves, but the people keeping them are largely interested in it in an indirect way, as I have shown you. 9290. In what way are they interested in it ; do you mean that they carry on the trade, not in licensed public-houses, but in other houses, or actually in the public-houses?— In some streets there are six times as many public-houses as tliere is really legitimate trade for. These people must live somehow, and they eke out an existence in this way. The houses are small tenements adjoining one another; they know the consequence if that house is rated in their name, and they are the bond Jide occupiers of it, and they get somebody else to be rated to these tene- ments. I could mention many instances where that has been done. 9291. So that in that surreptitious way, al- though it be true, as Mr. Cesser states, that the public- houses are not actually used as brothels, the keepers of these public-houses do manage to make use of the adjoining houses into which pros- titutes are brought ; is that so ? — Yes, and I do not think that if Mr. Cesser were to take action he could sustain a conviction in that case. I may say that in 1860-61, Alderman Hilliard was mayor of Portsmouth ; he had several daughters, they were good religious people, and he had an earnest desire that the magistrates should abate this fearful evil, which was then growing to an awful extent. In the early part of his mayor- alty there was an order passed that every beer- house keeper and licensed victualler in the borough known to entertain or harbour these women, would be dealt with, and -probably lose his license. On a given day about 300 or 400 of these forlorn outcasts were bundled wholesale into the streets, and they formed up in a large body, many of them with only a shift and a petticoat on, no bonnets (it was a rare thing to see a prostitute with a bonnet then) ; and with a lot of drunken men and boys with a fife and fiddle they paraded the streets for several days. They marched in a body to the workhouse, and 3 A 3 demanded 374 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [CoAtiniii:d. Mr. Oslicrne Morr/fin — continued, (lenianded admitlancc there. You can undcr- Ptand that for many reasons they were refused admittance; first, there was not aecommodution for tliem, and heincable-hodicd people tliere was not room for them in tiie tramp wards, and for many otiicr reasons they were refused ndniittunce. I tliink tliat was aljout the commencement of tiie year 1861 ; I cannot carry my mind back to the exact date, but I can ascertain that if it is neces- sary. These women wandered about for two or three days shelterless, and it was felt that the remedy was very much worse than tlie disease, and the women were allowed to go back to their former jilaccs. That was one result of the action taken by the magistrates in abating that shocking nuisance. Our town at one time bore such an evil reputation that visitors if they came once did not come again, and would not bring their families to have every sense insulted by these dreadful outcasts ranging about the town. Since the abatement of this evil (and it has been greatly abated), we have become quite a flourish- ing watcringplace, and the women go about now, and you would not know them ; it requires a judge now to know that they are common prosti- tutes. They go about decently dressed, very much quieter ; they are not nearly so often drunk as they used to he, and not nearly so often with black eyes and ill-used features. No, do not let us alter if we can possibly helj) it. 9292. I presume, as regards the outward order and decency of the streets, the condition of the town is very much better than it was? — Yes, the women go up periodically to the hospital, and they seem to vie with each other wl)o shall present the cleancstandmostdecent appearance to the hospital authorities; and that alone, if nothing else, is an immense gain. 9292.* May I refer you to Question 907 of Mr. Cosser's evidence, where he is asked by !Mr. Stansfeld : " Can you refer us to any cases " in which brothels have been closed in conse- quence of prosecution ? And he saj-s, " I have taken action against four brothels in King "William-place, Portsmouth ; the keepers of those brothels were indicted at the quarter sessions, and the brothels discontinued, and they were bound over in the sum of 100 /. in the usual way to discontinue it, and for 12 months to be of good behaviour generally. Since then I have insti- tuted proceedings against two other brothels in Church-path, Korth, ^^ith like result. (Q.) By those proceedings you have succeeded in closing six brothels? {A.) That is so." Then he goes on to mention the case of another brothel which he says he closed. As a matter of fact you know, I presume, those cases to which he referred? — I have already referred to them. I was sent for as a matter of business to one of those houses the other day. 9293. 'I'hose are the cases to which you have alxeady referred? — Yes. He says that he pro- ceeded against two houses in Church-path, North, " with a like result ; " but the houses are still continued, only that the people have changed over. 9294. I understand you to say that, as a matter of fact, those prosecutions to which he refers, have not resulted in the closing of those houses, because the same business is still carried Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, on there; is that so? — I say that the action taken by the borough police in supjiressitig brothels has been altogether futile, inoperative, costly, and leading to no result whatever. 9295. Futile as regards those jjarticular brothels? — ^If this house in Church-path, North, was kept, say by Mrs. Brown as a brothel, and she lets that house to one of the prostitutes who lived there before and still carries it on, what advantage has been gained ? 9296. Is it the fact that she does that ?— Yes. 9297. So that in fact it is simply a change of occupants, and not a change in the use to which the house is put; is that so ? — Yes. 9298. At Question 916, Mr. Stansfeld put this question : "Could you refer us to any case where a house has been closed in consequetce of a prosecution for selling liquor without a license?" Then Mr. Cotser's reply is, " I can. It is the case of a house in Bow-street, which was formerly kept by Jemina Francis, and which was closed for a time." I will not read the rest of the answer, unless it is wished ; but do you know that house ? — Mr. Cosser answers the question himself; he says: " I am not in a posi- tion to say that the house ia not now to some extent used as a brothel, but not to the same extent certainly." 9299. Is it used, as a matter of fact, as a brothel ? — Yes, it is ; and the houses adjoining also. 9300. Should you say that it was used to the same extent as it was before ? — I should think considerably more, because there has been a circus built in the neighbourhood, which attracts a large number of peoy)le every evening. It is a wel'-'iiiown place. The woman was known as Mrs. Kook. 9301. I am afraid you are of o{)inion that these prosecutions have done little or no good? — The prosecutions, as regards King William-place and Church-path, North, were forced on the police by common informers. One of the com- mon informers in King Y/illiam-placeJ as soon as he got the money from the- quarter sessions, absconded, without paying his debts, with a married woman, leaving his wife and family des- titute. That I know to be the fact, and I knew the man well ; bis name was Westgate ; and I daresay the people laugh in their sleeves to get a few pounds. 9302. At Question 929, referring to the re- duction in the number of prostitutes, which is common ground with us all, Mr. Cosser is asked by Mr. Stansfeld: " To what do you attribute that improvement?" And his answer is: " Principally to the operation of the several suc- cessive Licensing Acts, to prosecutions by the police, and to greater vigilance on the part of the police than there was formerly, and the advance, if I may say so, of civilisation." (I will say nothing about the advance of civilisation ; that, no doubt, must have some effect.) " People set their faces more against this sort of thing than they used formerly to do " ? — Exactly so. The appearance of these women became so common that people took it as a matter of course that it must be, and they wandered about the streets, and nothing was SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 375 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [ Continued, Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, was done, and nothing conld be done to check them. 9303. But to come to these specific causes to which Mr. Cesser attributes the reduction in the number of prostitutes ; first of all, let us take the operation of the several successive Licensing Acts ; is it your opinion that that has done anything to reduce the number of prosti- tutes ? — No ; it certainly has had a good eflTect upon the quietude of the streets. 9304. But you do not see how it could have reduced the number of prostitutes, do you? — No, my experience in St Mary-street (and that would carry me all over the borough) is that if women are turned out of No. 1 they must go into No. 2. 9305. Then, with regard to prosecutions by the police ; you have stated that you do not attribute the reduction of the number of pros- titutes to that cause ?— No, I think Mr. Cesser is taking a great deal too much credit to himself. I know that the number of police on daily patrol in Portsmouth in proportion to the population is not so great as it used to be. 9306. Then should you say that it is true that there has been greater vigilance on the part of the police as regards these women ? — I should think the women have required considerably less -vigilance ; their better conduct in the streets has required less attention. At one time with an armv of women at night prowling about, how could 30 or 40 menin a large borough like Ports- mouth, grapple with that evil ? On Southsea Common the women in great numbers, after nightfall, would molest anybody and everybody, soliciting them, and ofi'ering themselves for the merest trifle, for the sake of getting shelter for the night. Round the ramparts it was truly frightful ; they would snap up little boys for the sake of 2 d. or Zd., and they ruined many chil- uren for life to my knowledge. Mr. Cavendish Beritinch. 9307. Are you speaking of the present time ? — I am speaking of 20 years ago. 9308. Before the Acts ?— Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9309. Could you give me the population of Portsmouth at the present time? — I think we have 135,000, including the military. I know that we have increased our police force from time to time, reckoning one man to every thousand inhabitants. Formerly our police force used to go on in larger numbers at what Mr. Barber termed the dangerous hours, so that the police con- stable's duty was very irregular, and the men complained about it, but Mr. Barber never could see his way to an alteration of that state of thino-s. But as soon as we had a new superin- tendent, then a system of dividing the 24 hours into three parts was adopted, so that the men, instead of doing 10, or 11, or 12 hours a day, only did eight hours, so you see that the number of men could not be so many in proportion to the population now as it was then. 9310. The population is larger ? — Yes ; and we do not get the number of hours out of the men. Then, again, there are a number of special duties now which years ago these men liad not to perform. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 9311. Have not the numbers been increased? — The number of police constables has been in- creased from time to time ; we increased them at one time by about 14. Captain Willis, the Government Inspector, called attention to the diminished number. 9312. But their number has not been increased more than in proportion to the increase of popu- lation? — No, I do not think we have suflScient, because of the special duties. 9313. I understood you to say that you con- sidered that the effect of the Contagious Diseases Acts, in enabling the police to warn young girls against entering upon a career of vice, was ex- ceedingly beneficial? — Yes; I have seen in St. Mary's-street parents come down almost broken- hearted looking for their daughters, who have, perhaps, left their service, or their homes in the country. Scott, and another of the metropolitan police, I forget his name, who were told oflT at Portsmouth, knew immediately a fresh face ; as soon as a fresh girl came into a common house they knew of it, and they were able immediately to put their hand upon that girl and say, " There is your daughter; go home." 9314. And as a matter of fact they did so ? — They did so ; and 1 have heard the parents thank God that such a machinery existed. There was a case of a young girl who lived at Kingston- cross, in a gentleman's family, and she had leave to spend an evening out ; she went down to the music hall, and overstayed her time ; she was in- duced to take a bed at this No. 21, St. Mary- street, which was a brothel ; but they let beds, and sold pipes, and so on, in the window. She was a fine handsome girl. The next morning my wife said to me : " I wonder what that girl is crying about," and we went to the door and called her in, and she said, " I unfortunately took a bed there last night, and in the middle of the night a man tried to get into my room ; I had put a wash- hand stand against the door to prevent people from coming in, there being no lock. A marine artilleryman tried to get in, and in pushing the door, he overturned the crockery. I put my head out of the door and called police, and the fellow desisted, and now that woman will not let me have my clothes." This wretched woman wanted to keep that girl there because she was a fresh, fine, tall, handsome girl, about 17 or 18. I sent for one of our police constables, and I had a great deal of difficulty in persuading him to interfere in that case ; but I did at last, and he went in and demanded the clothes, and the woman said : " Well, she owes me for a bed." The girl said, " No, I paid you." Then the woman said : " There is my crockery." I looked at the crockery, and all the damage would not have been above \s. Gd. He insisted upon the clotlies being given up, and the girl went home ; and in a day or so afterwards, not only her parents but her mistress came to my wife, and thanked us for what we had done, in keeping this girl from harm. 9315. That was not because of the assistance of" the metropolitan police ? — No ; I say that I had a good deal of difficulty in persuading him to interfere. It was a case that did not come within their line of duty. 9316. In Question 937 and following ques- 3 A 4 tions. 376 MIMTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKE.V BEFOUE THE 6 June 1882.1 Mr. MilIjEK. \_Co7itinued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, tions, adilressed to Mr. Cesser, I see tliat he takes credit to himself for his own constables in having warned young girls away from a life of vice ? — I liave no doubt he has ; I believe that to be strictly true. 9317. As compared with the metropolitan police, should yon t^ay that, from the position which the local police occupy in the borough, and the duty cast upon them, they have the same opportunities of carrying on that excellent work that the metroj)olitan police have? — If the borough police were to embark in rescuing young girls and expending money in sending them totheir friends, and all that sort of thing, in all probability the watch committee would say that they had been doing something which they had no instructions to do. 9318. You mean that this work, though the local police might have done it, is outside their duties ? — It is. 9319. Would it be so with the metropolitan police? — I .'•hould think that the metroj)olitan police do a good deal more, perhaps, than the strict wording of the \ct requires them to do. 9320. As a matter of fact, do you know that the metropolitan police do warn young girls against entering upon a career of vice ? — Yes, I have a case here that I can vouch for. A young girl working for a farmer at the other side of the har- bour was scolded for a trifling fault ; she let a child wet the drawing-room carpet ; and after dark she ran away, taking her things away in a bundle, and found her way to St. Mary-street, to No. 19. That house where I live was then taken by a woman named Green, and used also as a brothel, and letting out beds. 1 his girl went there late at night and secured a bed, and the next morning, being without money, she went to pledge a pair of boots. She went to three dif- ferent pawnshops and they refused to deal with her on account of her youthful appearance. An old woman, a bawd, living in White's-row, was in the last pawnshop, and she volunteered to pledge the boots, and did so ; and then she got from the girl her tale, and she came into Green's, in St. Mary's-street, and demanded the girl's clothes. Mrs. Green said to the woman : " Don't you think there are whores enough in this town without making one more, and she took the girl by the arm and forcibly detained her in the back- room and sent for Scott. Scott took her to his superior officer ; she was sent to Winchester, where her father and mother lived ; and when she got there her mistress was there, overjoyed to find her, and within 24 hours she was back in her place, and there she remains. If ishe had not been secured by Scott at that time she would have been a prostitute ; that is a sample of many cases that I know of. Of course our police have no funds to send young girls away to Winchester or to their homes ; we could not do it; we have other things to do, looking after thieves, 9321. What fund have the metropolitan police for that purpose ? — I suppose that they have funds, because I know tbey are constantly doing that kind of work ; and at the hosi)ital, girls I know have been furnished with clothes and funds to getaway to their friends after they have been cured. Mr. Osborne Morr/an — continued. 9322. I understand you to say that you attri- bute good results to the powers which these metropolitan police exercise of warning young girls against entering upon a life of vice ? — Yes. 9323. And to their rescuing them from that life of vice when they have once entered upon it?— Yes. 9324. And, lastly, to the good influences brought to bear upon them when they are in the hosjiital ? — Yes. The brothels about Portsmouth are looked after, and if a young girl is seen fre- quently to. go into a house of that kind they know what her object is, and she is warned; and if she persists, she is warned to the hospital ; and parents knowing that look after their children a great deal more than they used to do. 932-5. Are they afraid of the exposure which would arise? — Naturally so. Formerly a drunken rascally father with two or three daughters, earn- ing nothing himself, and finding his house kept, would not ask a single question as to where the money came from ; but they know now that it must be one thing or the other ; it must be good or bad. 9326. There is no room for that sort of neutral condition, if I may use such an exjiression? — No. At one time these women were in a deplorable state, and j'oung men with money would come in and they used to seduce virtuous young girls to a shameful extent, and what became of them; what do we see at Winchester ; at last Winchester assizes five men were had up for grievous assaults upon women, and they were sentenced to penal servitude. I do not tijihold prostitution, but I say what would happen now. 9327. I understand you to say that it is your belief that beibre one of these unfortunate women can be taken in hand and reclaimed, morally, she must be rescued from this miserable . physical condition which you have described ; is that so ? — Certainly. 9328. And you attribute, therefore, the greater prospect of reclamation of these women, since the Acts have been in operation, to the fact that they are in the first instance relieved from the dreadfully diseased condition into which they have sunk ? — Yes. I have known a ship to pay off', and the dockyard gates would be besieged by an army of these women. They would lay hold of the men, and they would take them off to these places; and I have known the men spend their last shilling upon these women. In a few days afterwards the men would come, and without a word, they would knock the woman down, and beat her most fearfully, taking the earliest opportunity of revenging themselves for the condition they found themselves in from their contact with these woman. That is what used to be done. Black eyes were the order of the day ; there were women without features and with no noses ; in fact they were in such a rotten condition that oftentimes when I have had to coffin them my men would not touch them, and would not go into the room where they were lying ; and you could not compel them to go to the workhouse. 9329. Was the conduct of these women in the streets very indecent ? — They would come out sometimes SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 377 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, sometimes with only a garment on. One day a lady and gentleman were in my shop, and a soldier took the bottom of a -woman's dress, and tucked it up with his stick, and exposed the whole of her person ; and the people rushed out of mv shop, and they never came into it after- wards. After nightfall these women would pick up the men, and get on to your very doorsteps shamelessly and openly. They were like pigs- 9330. It is said that there is great difficulty in a woman getting off the register ; as a matter of fact, is that the case ?— No, it is not. There is a woman at the present time who is a married woman, and her husband is a tradesman in the borough of Portsmouth, and for certain reasons the police have paid particular attention to one brothel which I have mentioned in my evidence. They found that this married woman was fre- quenting that house very often, and they warned her to the hospital, and her husband made a great stir about it. There was the evidence, but she would not go, and she was told that if she did not go they would have to make her. Then she did go, and she was detained there. What does the husband say ? " My wife to be a prostitute for ever!" "No," is the reply, "if she abandons her course of life she will not be interfered with again ; but if she continues to frequent brothels she will be warned again."' Mr. Bulwer. 9331. Was she diseased? — Yes, and she is there at this moment. Mr. Osborne More/an. 9332. You know that when a woman is once on the register she must apply in writing to a justice of the peace to be taken off the register? — I believe there is very often a mere verbal re- quest, and I believe that that is oftener the case than otherwise. 9333. AVhen once she is taken off the register do the police interfere with her in any way un- less she returns to a life of prostitution ? — I know several women who are now being kept by gentlemen who are exempt from attending the hospital. There was one woman who was kept by an officer, and on a stormy day she went to a brothel, and she was warned to the hospital. She had been released from attendance at the hospital, but she could not stick to the man who kept her ; she must go on ; and the result was that she frequented this house, and she was stopped, although she was getting good money from this foolish man that was keeping her and cohabiting with her. 9334. You say that the interference of the police depends entirely upon whether a woman, after having been removed from the register, returns or shows that she is inclined to return to a life of prostitution? — It would be more than their business would be worth to interfere other- wise. Supposing that a prostitute picks up with a working man who is going to keep her and who cannot marry her, it would be a hardship for that woman to be interfered with, and she would not be interfered with. 9335. In your long experience have you found many complaints made against the administration of these Acts by the police in Portsmouth ? — 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. No, not one. I have read cases that have occurred at other places. I know one case that occuri'ed at Aldershot. 9336. 1 wish you to confine yourself to Ports- mouth, of which you have personal knowledge. It has been said that these women call themselves " Queen's women ; " is that your experience ? — I have had more conversation with common pros- titutes, I should think, than . any other man in Portsmouth, from the fact of my having to bur)' them. I have been contractor to the board of guardians of the Portsea Union for 26 years, and whenever a common woman dies she is buried as a pauper, and I make arrangements for the funeral ; so that in that way I have had a good deal of intercourse with these women, and I be- lieve that statement to be grossly exaggerated. 9337. Have you ever heard them call them- selves " Queen's women " ? — No. 9338. Have you ever heard anybody else call them " Queen's women '' ? — No, I know tlie women, especially the better educated women (and they are being better educated now under the Education Act), those who know anything at all, greatly value the Acts; and if it was a wise or a proper thing to do, and you could take a poll of these women, you would find that a very large majority of them were in favour of the Acts. There is the fact of their enabling the women to get away from their wretched life. What man would pick up with a diseased woman and live with her. 9339. If it was said that, virtuous women are sometimes molested, and watched, and harassed by the Meti'opolitan police under these Acts ; should you say that there was any truth in that statement ? — As the Right honourable Gentleman opposite me knows very well there are gentlemen, and ladies too, in Portsmouth, who view with great disfavour the operation of these Acts ; and if there were well-founded cases of complaint, peo- ple would be only too glad to make use of them. 9340. As a matter of fact, there are no such cases? — No. 9341. I think abovit four or five years ago an inquiry was made of the watch committee by the Home Secretary as to whether they would be willing to undertake the control of the Metro- politan police in the borough who were employed outside the dockyard ; was not that so ? — That is so ; I have already touched upon that. 9342. Were you a member of the watch com- mittee at that time ? — I was. 9343. What answer was made to that applica- tion ? — We did not consider it desirable. 9344. Why not? — The view of the committee principally was, that we did not want our men to have anything to do with this brothel-keeping business. 9345. And you thought that the work per- formed by the Metropolitan police was satis- factorily done, and that it could not be better done ? — Yes ; and because, as I have already stated, our police are, a great many of them, young men, and I should want a very good reason if I saw one of our young men coming out of a brothel orapuldic-house ; and it was felt that with young unmarried men we could not allow the two things to be mixed up together. 9346. How many Metropolitan police are there 3 B employed ;v/8 SllMlK.'^ OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEKoKK THE 6 Jjine 1882.] Mr. MlLLEK. [ Continued. Mr. Oshonif Morgan — continued, employed in Port.-;month iinfler tlic Acts? — Not Mianv ; I should not think more than four or five, or six, perhaps ; one or two, perhajis, at Gosport, and one for Cosham. They not only employ men under the Contageous Diseases Acts, but they also employ men looking u]) stragglers. The communication of the Home Secretary was to the effect which I have stated, viz., to ask the watch committee whetlicr they would undertake the control of the Metropolitan police by means of our superintendent, bctause it was felt that their men outside tlie dockyard had not sufficient superin- tendence, and were not under sutticient control. 9.'547. And you declined, because you thought that the Metro]n)litaii police discharged their duties sutticiently well? — Yes, partly. 1 believe tliere is a reward offered for the picking up of stragglers, and what we felt was that our meu would l)c looking after stragglers instead of attending to their legitimate business. That was one thing. Then we felt too that the work was being done in such a manner that it could not be performed by our own police. Our watch committee at that time consisted of eleven and the mavor. Of course I have been there some few years, and some of our members are young members ; iliey change every year. 9348. I see, referring to Mr. Cesser's return of convictions of brothel-keepers, that it shows only 27 convictions in the course of 10 years ; as a matter of fact does that represent the convic- tion of tlie same persons several times ? — Yes, in one or two cases. I have known brothel- l.eepers whose wives were common prostitutes. 9349. Those convictions were convictions for breaciies of the Licensing Acts, were they not? — Yes. Return No. 1 is the number of convictions ior all offences against the Licensing Acts. Wliat has tl'at got to do witli these women ? 9350. That would not include convictions for harbouring prostitutes, would it? — No, the pro- secutions of public -house keepers for harbour- ms. women, as I have already stated, have been ve^-y few indeed. I oidy know of that case that I mentioned, the ■' Golden Bell " case. 93.51. Have you any remarks to offer upon Returu No. 3? — Only the remark that 1 made just now, that this return is to a certain extent misleading, because the alteration of the duties of tlie men give.s us a smaller number of men actually at work at one time than there used to be in proportion to the population. We have two new police stations, and the inspectors and reserve men necessary to keej) those places. Then we have lately engaged in the keeping of horses for our prison van to convey prisoners away to the new prison ; tliat takes a num.ber of men. Then we have a steam fire-engine. Then we have lately organised a plain-clothes force. 93.52. And for those purposes a number of men have to be detailed off, thus reducing the number of the force available for other duties ? — Yes. 9353. You are aware that there have been several meetings called in Portsmouth for the purpose of promoting the repeal of these Acts ? —Yes. 9354. Have you attended these meetings? — I have attended all that I possibly could. Some have been called privately, or for women only. .VI r. Osborne Morgan — continued. 935.5. Have those meetings been a success or a failure ? — Quite a failure. There was one at the Portland Hall. Great efforts had been made to get a good meeting there; it was the largest room in the place, and a fashionable i>art of "the town too: and I remember seeing a small bill containing advice to the working men to come there and bring their wives with them to hear all these nasty details. 9356. What is the feeling of the population there ? — You could get \\\) nn agitation in Ports- mouth against anything; 1 believe that there are people who would be willing almost to dethrone tlie Queen if they were asked. 9357. You are conversant with the town, is the feeling, so far as you are aware, in favour of or against the Acts? — Strongly in favour of them. I had thought of asking the town council to present a petition to Parliament in favour of the continuance of them. 9358. You know that jietitions ha\e beea jiresentcd to Parliament in favour of them? — Yes, I have heard gentlemen stand and argue aliout it who have not been in the town six months, and when I have ji^inted out matters to them they have gone away with quite a different idea. 9359. Yon have read the evidence, 1 sujipose, of ]\Irs. Josephine Butler ?-^ Yes. 9360. I want to refer you to one or two (jues- tions and answers in her evidence. At Ques- tion 5355 Mr. Hopwood asked her this : '' Then, as I understand, you lay very great stress u])on the fact that the woman is not mistress of her own life from the moment she is registered under this law ? "' And her answer was, " 1 (juite endorse what you say, and there is one point which makes it a great hard- ship, it is not difficult, I know by my experi- ence, for a prostitute not under these Acts to obtain at once, without passing through any home or refuge, some jjoor but honest labour, some situation. Thus she at once leaves her jiast behind her. Under the Acts it is much more difficult. A wom;in who is on the register, if she takes and obtains a situation, is liable to have a policeman constantly looking her up ; and thai is death to her hopes ; no I'espectable person will have a servant who is being looked u]) by the ])o'ice to come up for examination. That is a very decided hindrance to their leaving a life of vice. ' Is that your experience.' — It is not so, and it could not be so, that il a woman signified her intention o( alandoning her course of life and pui'suing some honest calling these men would come and look her up. I say it is an insult to common sense to imagine that such a state of things could exist, and Mrs. Jiutler is grossly misinformed upon the matter if she be- lieves it. Mr. Stansfeld. 9361. I tnust point out to you that you are under examination as to what has come within your own experience at Portsmouth, and not as to what Mrs. Butler believes? — I take a strong view, and there are many men in Portsmouth, God-fearing men, who take as .strong a view in favour of the continuance of these Acts, and as to the good they have done, as Mrs. Butler has the opposite way ; and I have as much right, I consider. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 379 6 June 1882.] Mr. MiLLEE. \_Contiiii>ed^ Mr. Stansfeld — continued, consider, to hold an opinion and to express it too, as Mrs. Butler has. I have never had an oppor- tunity of seeing Mrs. Butler in Portsmouth: 1 hope I may. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9362. I understand that your own experience is wholly opposed to that statement of Mrs. Butler's? — Certainly; I do not l.elieve it. Mr. Burt. 9363. With regard to clandestine prostitution, I understand you to say that it had diminished very much ot late in Portsmouth? — Yes, on account of the Tear of detection and exposure. 9364. How do you know that it has dimi- nished ? — I &,m quite certain of it. The number of young girls who frequent, say High-street, of a night, listening to the band playing before the Lieutenant Governor's house, is not so large as it was formerly. I have seen hundreds of young girls with little drummer boys, and I know what happened, and I know what happens now ; if a young girl Is seen going round a dark place at night with a soldier boy we know what is likely to take place ; and these girls' parents are warned. 9365. But what reference has that to clan- destine prostitution? — I take it that clandestine prostitutes visit some house for the purpose of prostitution. I cannot tell what goes on any- where else, but I mean women who frequent those houses. There are two kinds of houses in Portsmouth. There is one kind of house where a common prostitute lives and takes her men ; ana another kind of house where they do not keep women at all, but merely let beds for the purpose of prostitution, and women are in and out. I believe that clandestine prostitutes use those houses. A clandestine prostitute would not place herself in contact with a common woman, because she would be reported, and the j)olice would be put on to her immediately. " There's a sly ' dolly-mop,' " they would say immediately ; " why doesn't she go to the hos- pital?" 9366. I understand that you, at any rate, de- cidedly hold tlie opinion that clandestine prosti- tution has diminished very much at Portsmouth ? - — Yes, especially amongst younsi girls. 9367. And you think that that is the effect of the Acts? — Yes, certainly. 9368. In what way have the Acts tended in that direction? — The fear of being marked as a common woman deters young girls from visiting those sly brothels. They know that if they fre- quent these houses tor the purposes of prostitu- tion they are likely to be warned to the hospital, and probably detained there, and it deters them from going You have to live (and suffer, too), as I have done all my life-time, to see the dif- ferent state of things. Mr. Stclwer. 9369. AVith reference to this clandestine pros- titution which the honourable Member has been inquiring about, clandestine prostitution, in the sense of secret prostitution, you can know nothing about or form any opinion of? — No. 9370. The clandestine prostitution that you 0.75. Mr. Buhner — continued, speak of I understand to be what I would call quasi clandestine prostitution ; that is to say, the prostitution of girls going to these receiving houses with men ? — Yes, this is what I mean by clandestine prostitution. A young woman living at home takes a stroll after her day's work is done, and picks up any one she can, and takes him to one of these houses. But that sort of thing is greatly diminished, because they know that if they are seen about in a common sort of way frequenting these houses, the result will be that they will have to go down to the hospital ; so it stops it. 9371. If one of these Metropolitan police sees a girl who is resi^ectably connected in company with prostitutes, or going into a brothel, or coming out of a brothel, do I rightly understand you to say that he would in all probability inform the girl's parents, if they were respectable people, of the chances of the girl's going astray ? — If it was an innocent girl who had left her place of service, and was perhaps seeking for a home until she got another place, she might, un- knowingly, get into one of these houses, and the Metropolitan police would say to the girl : " Do you know, my girl, where you are, and what company you are in? " and I know young girls have been in that way saved from ruin. We have a lot of wretched old women on the look- out to recruit their strength of young girls. 9372. Have you known instances where the Metropolitan police have warned parents of the danger their children were running ?— Yes. 9373. It is not, I understand, any part of the duty of your borough police to do that? — No, certainly not. It would be rare, I should think. Some people might take the advice and thank them ; but in other cases I think they would say, " Well, trouble yourself with your own business." It would not be part of their duty. I have known cases in which our police have taken and saved young girls, but not to any extent, compared with what the Contagious Diseases Acts police have done. 9374. And you have known of your own know- ledge, from whatever source the money may come, that assistance is rendered to those girls by the Metropolitan police in order to get them away from the life that they had been leading ? — Yes, I do ; and I know many young girls now in service who have been reclaimed by means of these Acts, and I know some of them who have been common prostitutes in Portsmouth who have married very well, even men in high social positions ; one is married to a nobleman now. 9375. How long have you lived in Portsmouth yourself? — I was born there, and I never lived out of it. 9376. Therefore you have known Portsmouth thoroughly well, both before these Acts came into operation, and since? — Yes. 9377. And you give it as your decided opinion, from acquaintance with Portsmouth all these years, that the condition of the borough since the Acts have been in force has been very much better than it was before in these respects ? — Yes, I say, in reply to that, that what is called State recog- nition of vice was bound to come in some shape or form. Ihe women had become so numerous, like rabbits in a warren, that there was not even, 3 B 2 I was 380 lillNlTES OF KVIDENCE TAKKN BKFOKK TITF, 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. \_Continiied. Mr. liulwcr — continued. I was going lO say, liouso iicconiir.od.ition for them, and it was bound to be dealt with in some way or other. The way in wliich these women were dying about the streets was something truly shocking. 9378." As a matter of fact that was so ?— It was so. 937'J. Have you had tlic opportunity during your residence in Portsmouth of communicating with people of all classes upon this subject? — Yes, 1 have. I have always feJt very warmly upon the suV)ject, because i have seen the won- derful change ibr good that has taken [ilace in Portsmouth. These women now, instead of being :;s they were, bond slaves to these bawds, have now got comfortable little homes of their own ; many of them are on the burgess-list, and have votes. 0380. As I understood you, from the nature of your business, you have had greater opportunities probably than anyone in Portsmouth, of forming an opinion ui)0u this subject, from your acquaint- ance with tiiis very class cf people? — Yes, 1 may lay claim to that, that I have seen more of the misery ; I have watched it carefully. Of course people impute all sorts of things to you. 1 have been married 27 years, and I have a family, and my wife and I have often thanked God that we have had no daughters to bring up in Portsmouth. Many tradesmen's daugliters are seduced and led away iiy fellows, otHccrs and others. 9381. You have spoken about meetings being held in Portsmouth ; have those meetings been got up by I'ortsmouth people, or by strangers from other jilaces? — 'Ihere was a meeting called at the Beneficial Society's Hall, very meagerly attended. To my knowledge there have been no inside efforts ; it has been by strangers, I should say, some of these jiaid agents. 9382. From London and Liverpool ? — Yes ; flic man came and challenged me to meet him on a public platform. 9383. Where did he come from? — He was a tall young fellow. I said : " Yoti are not in the position that I am ; your bread and butter lies that way, mine does not." He had a number of pamphlets, and he was going all over the country. I think he went down to Sheftiold. I happened to come across a Sheffield paper, which led me to think so. 9384. The meetings Avhich you say have been failures at Portsmouth have been got up by out- siders and not by people belonging to Ports- mouth? — No, we have some well-intentioned, but certainly utterly mistaken people there, who think that we ought not to look at this thing, but ought to pass it by. It cannot be passed by ; it must be dealt with in some way. Mr. Hnpwoud. 938o. Then you mean to say that the people in Portsmouth that you allude to wish to pass this thing by, and do not want to do anything to ameliorate it ? — I have never seen any organised effort for the reclamation of these women. 9386. You have been good enough to say that they want to pass it by, and I ask you whether you mean by th;it that they do not desire to do anything lo ameliorate the mischiefs of prostitu- Mr. Iliipwood — continued, tion .' — I think the great bulk of penpio feel that way, that they would rather shun it than other- wise. 9387. And that they do not argue for amelio- rating it by active means? — I never could get any scheme nf amelioration propounded by those ]ieo]dc. 9388. You were asked whether you agreed with Mrs. Butler about the difficulty of a woman who is on the register getting honest labour, and you say your experience is the other way ; will you tell me, very shortly, have you had any cx- ]icrience of any girl upon the register whom you have tried to get honest labour lor? — I know J\Irs. Colcbrooke very well indeed. 93S9. Will you please answer the question ; have you had any e.\]ierieuce yourself of that kind? — I know a girl who has been to a reforma- tory, or even come from a hospital. 9390. Will you answer the question ; have you yourself had any experience of that kind? — Do you mean of women finding a difficulty in getting employment? 9391. Of getting for a woman whose name is upon the register, honest emiiloymcnt ? — I never employed such women. 9392. You would say that you had known of the difficulty .' — Yes, certaud)'. 9393. Now, with regard to the police warning young girls, do you know that of your own obser- vations, or have yoxi been told by the police? — I have acciuired information upon that subject from the brothel-keejjcrs. That woman, Green, told me about this girl whose friends lived at Win- chester. 9394. Is there any other instance that you have heard of? — Yes, I have heard of them fre- quently. 939.5. Will you tell me another ? — I know a woman who was a domestic servant at Brighton. 9396. Did you see her yourself, or did you hear of this case I — I saw the woman myself; the had tramped from Brighton to Goodwood laces : she remained there the race week ; she then came to llavant and fell in with some soldiers who were stationed at Bedham]iton Fort; they gave her food for a time, and she then made a series of visits to the whole of the Forts, till she got to Portsmouth. That woman came in witli scarcely a rag upon her back, her feet bare, and altogether in a filthy condition, and she sought lodgings in the place. My attention was called to lier by a woman who let beds and rooms, and I got into conversation with the woman, and she told me she had not slept in a bed for six weeks. 9397. Did you call the attention of the police to her? — Of our borough jiolicc, I did. 9398. Now I am asking you about the metro- politan j)olice ; you said tiiat you knew of several cases in which they had intervened ; but this is not a case of the metroj)olitan j)otice ? — N^o, not this girl. 9399. Now Portsmouth, many years ago, you say, was as bad as a place could be ? — Some people say it is so now ; a woman named Robin- son there gives it a very bad character, but it is utterly untrue. 9400. Is that Miss Robinson ? — Yes. 9401. And SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 381 6 June 1882. J Mr. Miller. [^Continued. Mr. WiU'unn Fowler. 9401. And you call her "a woman named Robinson " ? — Yes, I called her "a woman named Robinson," going about and making statements AS she does, damaging the character of the place. Mr. Hopicood. 9402. At the time you speak of there was no medical relief for poor creatures except the parish doctor, who had 40 I. a year? — No. 9403. Are you a member of the board of guardians '^ — -I am not. 9404. You have friends upon .the board of guardians, have you not? — Yes. 9405. Did they let that state of things cour tinue, viz., a medical officer with a salary of 40 /. a year ? — No, his salary is more than doubled. 9406. The medical officers liave to be very active in their duties, have they not? — They have to be very smart ; if there is any complaint, they are reprimanded. 9407. Did you mention that as a jjublic action which would go to moderate disease when you spoke of the advantages of these Acts ? — As regards the women. 9408. Did it occur to you to do so ? — The higher salary of the medical men, do you mean ? 9409. And the employment of more medical men? — I do not think they have increased the number of medical men. 9410. I thought 3'ou said they had increased the number of medical men ? — No, I do not think I said so. 9411. You said that there was a gentleman with 40/. a year, that Avas in the year 1860, for looking after these poor women ; has there not been more tlian one recently ? — I may explain that the parish of Portsmouth is distinct from the parish of Fortsea. 9412. Will you kindly answer me; are there more medical men employed by the guardians for the union than tliere used to be ? — I sjioke of the parisli of Portsmouth, and I stick to that now, that there is but one medical man for the parish of Portsmouth ; that is the whole town, within the ramparts. Mr. Bidwer. 9413. Portsmouth is only one of the parishes within the union ? — That is so. Mr. Hopwood. 9414. How many in population are there in Portsmouth? — In the parish of Portsmouth there are about 10,000. 9415. And you say there is only one medical officer for that number ? — That is so. 9416. If there is more wanted it is the fault of the guardians that they have not appointed more, is it not ? — And he has a part of the district outside as welL 9417. Does not it occur to you that that state of things might be improved by the liberality of the guardians if there is more medical attendance wanted ? — Certainly, it might be. 9418. You speak of Portsmouth ; do I under- stand you, when you tell us about the disease, 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued. that of your own knowledge a large number of people died of tliis venereal disease ? — Yes. 9419. You are sure of that? — Yes; now I have seen naked soldiers. 9420. Just answer me please, and if you like to add anything afterwards you may : now, within wliat dates would you, place that dying of syphilis ; do not let there be any mistake about it ? — There has been from the commencement of the operation of these Acts. 9421. Excuse me, I am not asking you that; I asked you as to the period, the date which you ascribed to the fact you spoke of when numbers died of this disease ; I will first ask you, is it true that numbers died of syphihs in the early part of your recollection ? — Yes. 9422. Will you now tell me within what years 3'ou are speaking ofj because then we can test this ? — As soon as the Acts came into workinsf order, the number diminished. 9423. I am not asking you that; I am asking you within what dates you ascribe this mortality from syphilis ? — The last man 1 saw wJio died from the direct effects of syphilis was a man of the Hussars who came from India, and died very soon after his admission to the hospital. 9424. When was that? — Two years ago. 9425. I am speaking to you, firstly, before the Acts came into operation ; and I ask you ap;ain to consider your answer ; do you mean to say that numbers of people died from syphilis for- merly in Portsmouth ? — Yes. 9426. Nov/ I ask you to tell me what date you are speaking of; give me the year that you are speaking of? — From the year 1850. 9427. DoAvn to when ? — Down to the year 1865 or thereabouts. 9428. Will you give me a notion of the number that you will jdcdge yourself to as having died from syphilis ? — I could not do it, but it used to be a very common remark about these women. I daresay, speaking within limits, that the common women died out of the workhouse to the extent of 100 in a year; I do not say that they all died from that disease, because they died from various diseases. 9429. But 1 am speaking of the syphilis you mentioned ; you have been speaking strongly about their dying rotten, and so on, and I will ask you how many, to your knowledge, died in that state? — A very great many. 9430. Could you give me an idea of the number? — I could not. 9431. Would you sny 100? — I could not carry my mind back to that date. 9432. I ask you how many had you known of before the Acts came into force? — A great many. 9433. Will you give me the number? — I have not only seen women, but I have seen children with the disease. 9434. Do answer my question ? — I have seen 100; Yes. 9435. Would you say you have seen 200? — Within how many years ? 9436. Within your own time, that you can re- member ? — Yes, I should say so. 9437. Would you say that you have seen 300? — 1 would not say that, but 1 would say that the 3 B 3 deaths •J&2 MINI I'ES OK KVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFKUE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. MiLLEK [ Ctinlinued. Mr. Hopwood — continued, deatlis of the common women from syphilis were very numerous. fM38. You iiave been givinp; tlic Coniniittee to understand a large number ; 1 would ask you if vou would give us to understand .'500 .' — Wiiat I said was that I liad buried more than 16,(K)0 people and tiiat tlic common women lay about in these places, and that they died in a very bad state, and that it was from one form of the dis- ease or anotlier, I should say. that they died tliere. 9439. Would you like to correct your answer, and say that they died there ? — I would say that they did die, and died in large numbers. 9440. In the 10 or 15 years you have spoken of, would you say that there were 200 who died from syphilis ? — Yes. 9441. Would you say 300 ?— Yes. 9442. Would you "say 400?— 1 would not pledge myself to any particular number. 9443 15ut vdu would say that 300 in 15 years died from syphilis? — Yes, I should say so. 9444. Perhaps you remember that you gave evidence before the Hoyal Connnission on the administration, &c., of the Contagious Diseases Acts, in 1871 ? — I did. 9445. Do you remember answering Question 11075, put to you by Mr. Holmes Coote: " Have you any record of what these women died of, when you were burying one or two a week ? — {A.) \ know they died princijjally of drojisy and cousum])tion, and soldiers the same would die of that. The numbers have gone off wonderfully." This was in the year 1870. " The 2oth Eegi- nient went out of our garrison some months ago, after 14 months' stay, without a single death. While the regiment was here, ihey only lost one man, and thej' had been here nearly two years.'' Now, with regard to the dying from syphilis, do you adliere to your former answer, that thuse wo- men died principally of dropsy and consumption ? Mr. Bukver.^ If you will excuse me, the witness was examined as to the statement of what occurred in 1870; but you are asking him, I think, as to what occurred from 1850 to 1860. Witness.^ My opinion is, that if a woman has syphilis, it brings on consumption ; 1 know it brings on dropsy . Mr. Hopwood. 9446. I ask you whether your answer is not now, that they died principally of dropsy and consumption ? — Yes ; and syphilis, certainly. I had it in my mind ; I do not know how you took down the answer. 9447. You were asked, " You think that syphilis, dropsy, and consumption are the same ;" and your reply was, " It always leads to that ; it brings on a cough, and you can hear them in ihe streets ; it is quite jiainful to hear them, and their children too. In some parts you would see young girls with quite healthy looking children in their arms. I stand up for the Acts. I can see the working of them is beneficial in every way in Portsmouth." Then, when you told us a while ago that numbers died of syphilis, you meant to say that it was because syphilis brought .M r. Ifopwood — CDHtinued. on a CdUgh, and that led to consum|>tion. and so on ? — It led to every evil. 9448. Then you correct your answer as tc sy])hilis being the immediate cause of death, but you say it causes the consumption ? — I saw the certilicate. 9449. Do answer the question ? — Of course, I am not in a position to give an answer like a medical man would. Take me as I am; I do not come here to oft'er an opinion upon matters I am quite ignorant of. 9450. Do you mean to say those women did not die of syjjhilis ? — I say they did die in great numbers from the effects of that; I have seen them literally rotten, and the fluid running from their bodies, and the stench such that my men would not tonch them, and I have had to call in^ extra assistance, and pay for it. 9451. You have often seen bodies in that con- dition, have you not, in the after stage of mor- tality ? — I have seen it in eases of men drowning, and so on, but we coffined them as soon as pos^ sible ; in my experience, as soon as death occurs they send for the undertaker, and we coffin them at once. 9452. Do you mean to give the Committee to understand that these several hundreds ol people died of actual syphilis, or 'lid they die of con- sumption, in your opinion the result of syphilis? — Yes. 9453. Whicii is it ?— Both. 9454. Then the 300 did not die of syphilis direct ? — I should think they did. If a woman is in thiit diseased state that you can see her bones almost through her body, and you know that she has the disease upon her, and she dies, it may be certified that consumption was the direct cause of death. I have seen tiu-ee or four causes stated in a certificate, primary and secondary, and eo on ; in fiict, I like to look at the certifi- cates and see. 9455. I am not asking you about the certi- ficate ? — You can only tell by looking at the surgeons' certificates what is the cause of death. 9456. Is it the fact that in Portsmouth there has been a considerable pulling down of the bad parts of the town?- — Yes, certainly. 9457. The parts of the town in which a good deal of the worst kind of prostitution existed ? — Yes, we have recently pulled down Military- row ; we bought it for 650 /., and 33 houses were all occupied by women. They ceased to be occujjied for want of there being women to live in them, and the owner says, " Here is an opportunity for a sanitary improvement," and the council bought it. 9458. Have you pulled down a large number of houses ? — No ; I should say that all the sani- tary authority has pulled down has been these 33 houses in Military-row. 9459. It is a bad part of the town, is it not ? —Yes. 9460. And largely occupied b)^ prostitutes? — Yes, two or three rooms in each house, almost to its fullest extent. 9461. Do you say that prostitution does not go on in Portsmouth now except bv those upon the register ? — How could I say that ? 9462. That is what I ask you ; I want to see what SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. t; Jiine 1882.] Mr. MiLLEK. 583 r Continued. Mr. Hopivood — continued, what you say. Then you do not say that ? — Cei'tainly not. 9463. Is it the fact that prostitution does go on in parts of the town or round about the town at night ? — I have no doubt it does. 9464. Does it go on openly on Southsea Common, for instance ? — It used to. 946n. But does it go on now ? — 1 could not say that now ; I could formerly, because I for- merly lived there ; I had a private house across the Common, so I was backwards and forwards four times a day. 9466. Do you know or not ; would you like to say that prostitution does not go on on Southsea Common now ? — I believe it does, certainly. 9467. And upon the beach ? — No doubt of it. 9468. Then that is an improvement upon the old state of things which commends itself to you ? — I do not say that is an improvement ; I say there is a great deal less of it ; I do not mean to say that you can put down prostitution by Act of Parliament, but I mean to say that the evil has been greatly lessei ed. 9469. Have you any improvement Acts in Portsmouth ? — Yes. 9470. I lave yoix had any of late years ? — We are governed by the Local Government Act and its various amendments. 9471. And the Towns Police Act ?— Yes. 9472. You have been a member of the watch committee for a number of years ? — I said I had been on the watch committee for several years ; the committees change. 9473. You have been upon the corporation, I believe, .since 1868 ? — Yes. 9474. I suppose any member of the corpora- tion can call the attention of the watch com- mittee to the state of the town ? — Yes. 9475. And to the enforcement of any police powers which they have ? — Yes. 9476. When Portsmouth was in this ill state of di.sorder and vice, did you never call the attention from the year 1868 of the local police or of the watch committee to the state of the town ? — Yes, cei'tainly ; I have tried to keep them out of High-street, to keep them within bounds. 9477. You submitted to the watch committee that they should employ the powers they had for the purpose ? — Yes. 9478. And you have paid attention to that? — I have served on every committee of the town council last year ; I served on 14 committees, 9479. I suppose other members of the cor- poration are equally zealous, and animated by the same intention ? — I do not think they ai'e ; many merely accept the honour and do very little work. 9480. You are one who works hard ? — I am. 9481. I suppose you know that as regards accosting in the streets and acts of indecency, and so on, there are local police clauses which enable the police to take up a woman for such offences? — Yes. 9482. I believe you are aware that the police, at all events of late years, have enforced those clauses? — I say that the better condition of the women has been tending to diminish the evil ; at 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued, one time the women were so numerous that the police could not grapple with them. 9483. The addition of three or four metro]jo- litan police has improved that state of things ? — The old women were fast dying out. 9484. What do you mean by "old women"? — Women who had been upon the register for some time ; I burled a women last week named EUeu Butler, without a nose, who had been upon the town 28 years. 9485. Now, I ask you again, is it not the fact that you have, as a member of the watch com- mittee, and before as member of the corporation, required the police to enforce order In the streets ? — Yes, it is part of our business to do so. 9486. Do you know any powers which the metropolitan police have for the purpose? — No, but I can see something behind them ; 1 see the result of their labours every day of my life, although it is not here in the Act of Parliament. 9487-8. I will ask you something about that. If a woman is on the register and comes up for ex- amination regularly, what has the metropolitan policeman to do with her after that; what power has he over her ? — I see they go up on certain days of the week, and if they are all right they come back. Chairman.~\ First of all answer the ques- tion directly, then make wliat addition you please. Mr. Hopwood. 9489. I ask you, supposing a woman to be on the register as a common prostitute, and to attend regularly at the examination house, what more has the metropolitan policeman to say to her? — I do not think that, according to the Act, he has anything more to say to her. 9490. Then I -will just ask you this further : supposing such a woman were misbeha\'ing her- self in the streets, drunk arid disorderly for e.x- amjDle, what power has the metropolitan police officer over her then ? — None whatever. 9491. Then if she misconducts herself in the streets, being a registered woman, she comes under the cognisance of the local police ? — Un- doubtedly ; she would be taken up and sent to gaol. 9492. You have said in effect that the cases in which the local police put down the brothels in public-houses and beershops, have resulted in your opinion in very little good, or in no good ? — In those particular cases I say, and I say it again, and I maintain it, that the action of the borough police in putting down brothels has been altogether inoperative. 9493. You say that it has done no good ? — 1 say it has been altogether inoperative ; it has been merely the change of the tenant, or the removal of his shop to another part of the town. 9494. Do not you think that putting down all those beerhouses in that street that you told us of, was a t;ood thing? — I was very glad I assisted in having the licenses taken away from those fellows, but they maintain the same business. 9495. You assisted, and you approve of what was done by the police? — Certainly. 3 B 4 9496. The 384 M1NLTK8 OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOItE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [^Continueil. Mr. Hopirood — continued. 9496. The metropolitan police had nothing to ilo with that ? — No. !>4!n. Now I ask you whetlier tlie putting down of those houses would not. at all events, add to the nuiet of the streets?— I do not think it would, because those houses were bouml to l>e closed at 1 1 o'clock. 94!)8. Excuse me, I think 1 have your answer at a former time in these words : " No etfcct upon the prostitutes, but upon the quiet of the streets"? — I was asked as to the general ten- dency of the licensing Acts, and 1 said they had !)il been beneficial; 1 would like to extend them : T would like to cripple the power of the magis- trates. 9499. And they have had an effect upon the quiet of the streets? — Yes, at night time. 9500. Do you mean in the greater sobriety of the people passing ; is that what you mean ?— If a man could keep a house oi)eu to an unlimited hour, which he could in the old times, it was his interest to keep a man in his house as long as he had money to spend, and the result was riot and drunkenness, whereas now people get home ear- lier. 9501. And there is not so much riot and drunk- enness ? — Certainly not. 9502. If a prostitute is riotous and drunken, she is more likely to be indecent and accosting people? — \es. 9503. And if she has not the same oiiportunlty for getting drunk she is likely to be quieter ?— "What a prostitute is likely to be and what she Is, are two diflerent things. 9504. lUit without" the same opportunity of "•etting drunk she is a quieter woman ? — I say she is quieter. Mr. Baluer. 9505. Is a drunken woman or prostitute at Portsmouth more attractive than elsewhere, or more attractive than a sober one ? — No. a drunken woman would be naturally much more careless in her behaviour, and would not mind whom she accosted, but in her sober senses she would be discreet ent)Ugli to know better. Mr. Jlopwood. 9506. In your judgment the diminution in these beerhoiises, and "shuttinn; them up earlier, has tended to make the prostitutes quieter and less drunken ? — If you are putting to me a general question, I "say the closing of i)ublic- iiouses and beerhouses at an earlier hour has worked a very great deal of good. 9507. I understood you to say that the women were more cleanly, more decent, and got into more respectable places to live? — Yes: the better educated women have a house of their own now in many cases. 9508. And they live by themselves or with a friend, a woman friend jiossibly ? — Yes. 9509. And that has taken the place cf brothels? — Not to any very great extent. 9510. Yoii say they did so?— Yes, I said they got away. 9511.' Is that the ease in many instances? — Yes ; there always was a difterence between women who laid themselves out lor men with money ; there are two kinds of women. Mr. JIopwiHid — continued . 9512. 1 am not asking you about them : you said the women were nmrc decent now, and got into a more respectable ]iart of the town to live ; do you want to ((ualify ihat at all? — No, 1 do not : the women now, 1 say, certainly have to go to the washtub and wa>h their dirty bodies; that is an immense gain, and they have to go up clothed. 951:5. But I was asking about the locality ; you ha\e had ample opportunity to sjieak about the condition of their bodies. Now 1 understand that a well-meant efiiirt was begun in 1860 with regard to these women by some gentleman who was an alderman, but it was not successful then? — It was the mayor of Portsmouth. 9514. From that time, have you and others in Portsmouth devoted your attention to the sub- ject of order in the streets? — Yes; there was an order issued that no woman fhould come into the street without a bonnet and shawi on, 9515. I am not asking about details : you have told us about the details? — Then I tell you that. 9516. I only wish to shorten the matter; now ^Ir. Barber was the former superintendent of police: but you spoke of when the new sujieriu- tendent came : was that Mr. Cosser ? — No. 95i7. "Who was the next? — Mr. Jarvis. 9518. How long was he there? — Not very long. 9519. Just gi\e the Committee a notion of how long? — Mr. Cosser succeeded Mr. Jarvis, and Mr. Jar\is went to Blackburn, and was there for 18 months : I see he has left, having resigned. 9520. I am not asking about him ; I do not know what is passing through your mind ? — Mr. Cosser had verj- little experience of the out-door patrol duty. 9521. lint he has now, I suppose? — Mr. Cosser was the chief clerk in the office, 1 should sav, until he was made superintendent ; I do not know that he had ever done any patrol duty out- side. 9522. How long has he been superintendent ; a af'od many years now, has he not ; — No, he has not ; I should think not two years yet ; about a year and-a-half. 9523. Now you s[ioke about young men se- ducing young girls, and you spoke about the officers seducing tradesmen's daughters?— They did, to a great extent. 9524. Do you think they have learned better since the introduction of the Acts? — No; I think I have stated the reason that the connnon women being in a better state of health, tlnrc was not that pursuit of young virtuous girls that there used to be. I know a number of trades- men in good social positions, whose girls have gone on the streets in former years. 9525. You think the young men and the sol- diers consort with tho>e women more safely now, because thev are not diseased ? — \ on can answer that question better than I can. 9526. "Will you give me a direct answer, please ; how do you explain that they no longer seduce tradesmen's daughters ? — You can see that for yourself; at all events, certainly we have fewer officers in the town, that is one thing. Take a com- mon sense view of it ; say that a man comes into the SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 385 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. \_Cuntinued. Mr. Hupiuood — continued, the town and picks up a woman, and gets diseased immediately ; and he then gets cured, and he wants another woman, then these young girls are easily led astray, and easily got at by the dread- ful example of the older women coming into the streets ; that was the way of it. 9527. Do yoix look upon it as a necessity that a man coming into Portsmouth must pick up a woman ? — No, but I take it as a fact that they do ; you must take things as they are. 9528. Then how does that; bear upon the fact that they no longer pick up tradesmen's daughters ; can you answer me ? — Yes, the thing speaks for itself. 9529. I will take your answer if you can give me no better one ? — I could give a better one, but I do not want to be brought here as a witness for upholding the necessity of j)rostitu- tion ; you must take things as they are. 9530. Then your opinion is, their being made safer, the class of men who use these women are kept from going to corrupt other women ? — No doubt it is so. 9531. And your opinion is that it is made safer? — I know it is ; a woman has to go up to be examined ; if she is examined, that is a guarantee of her safety, to a certain extent ; of course she is not always safe. 9532. You spoke of a ship's company being paid off; are you aware that there is a change in the mode of paying the men ? — Undoubtedly. 9533. Do you think that is a great advantage ? — Unquestionably. 9534. Does not that conduce to the good character and the sobriety of the men ? — Men when they get to the proper age now are able to get married, and then they do not want these women. 9535. "Will you answer the question : does not that conduce to the good order and sobriety of these men ? — Yes. 9536. It would be a very disturbing cause with the Portsmouth people if you were to bring • a ship's crew into Portsmouth and pay them off in the old style, would it not ? — I do not know that there would be much difference between the mode of payment under the old and the new style ; but the men's wages are paid more fre- quently now, that they can remit the money to their wives ; but I have known, under the old style, a man come out with 200 I. in his hand ; they would flash about in an open cab with three or four women, and in a few days Jack would be upon his back. 9537. Then every year the town improves and enlarges, does it not? — Yes, we are getting a larger rateable value now. 9538. Now you spoke of " little sly dolly mops ; " what do you mean by that ? — Little girls of 14 or 15, and the like of that; little girls who first begin with little boys, and then they get on from bad to worse ; that is a well-understood expression in Portsmouth ; by " dolly mops," I mean young girls who are not quite professional. 9539. I think you are also of opinion that sailors are of a better class now than they used to be ; you know that, do you not? — Tes ; but we have a large number of young lads in Ports- mouth, and I am sorry to say things are not 0.75. Mr. Hopioood — continued. what their education would lead you to ex- pect from them. 9540. But I was asking you about the sailors ; you say they, as a class, are better educated ? — Yes, they are. 9541. There are some religious men amongst them? — Yes. 9542. And many better conducted, and total abstainers ? — Yes, there has been a great altera- tion amongst them ; I know some sailors' wives who have homes which would be no discredit to any person to have. Mr. fVilliam Foicler. 9543. The honourable Member was asking you about the improved character of the sailors, and, I think, also the soldiers ; is not there more care taken with regard to providing them with recrea- tion, and impi-oving their habits generally ? — May I ask if you are alluding to the Soldiers' Institute ? 9544. I am asking you generally? — Certainly; in the barracks, and elsewhere now, the soldiers live in palaces, comparatively speaking ; there is every inducement to remain in barracks ; they have bagatelle and theatres, music halls, and skittles, and everything of the kind. 9545. Do not you think that that has tended to improve the condition of the town ? — Cer- tainly. 9546. You would attribute the improvement to other causes than the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — Certainly. 9547. Because I have rather gathered from your evidence that you have rather attributed the benefit principally to the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — I would give credit to everything that has tended to improvement. I have known a man to live with a woman for two or tln-ee weeks, and the landlord come in and snatch away the miserable earnings of the women, and not give them even the price of a garment. 9548. You were asked, with regard to the change in the habits of officers and persons of that kind, and you said that you did not wish to make any assertion as to prostitution being a necessity, that you looked upon it as a fact ; but is not tliere a danger of the law recognising it as a necessity ? — I say that the law was bound to recognise it, and that if the Contagious Diseases Acts had not been passed, something else must have been done. 9549. That no one denies; but I think you made the observation that the State was bound to recognise the state of things ? — Yes. 9550. Then tiie question is as to the mode of doing that ; you would object, would you not, to any law which recognised prostitution as a neces- sity of man ; you would not like to condemn any class to such degradation as that for the benefit of another class ? — There is no degradation in going to a hospital to be examined. 9551. You do not think there is any degrada- tion in going to a hospital to be examined ? — Not to a woman who will degrade herself, not with one man a night, but sometimes, as I have seen them, with half-a-dozen. 9552. You do not think that registering them is a degradation ? — Can you conceive anything more degrading than a woman offering herself to 3 C the 386 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. \_ContinucJ. Mr. William Fowler — contiTiuecl. the first comer, and then using all the artifices that a -woman is ca|)ahle of to induce him to go with iier? 9553. But the registration docs not take her away from that ? — No, hut there is a great deal of moral control under the Acts. 9554. You spoke of the police hcing a kind of censor of manners, as I understand it ; that they were going .about to warn these women, and so on ; you are .aware that thut is entirely outside their duties under the Acts ?— Yes. 9555. The Act does not allude to it in any way or shape ; hut the policeman docs that in a kindly manner? — Yes; and the same thing applies to Mr. Cesser's evidence, that there is nothing in the Act to instruct them to go about and deter young girls from leading a life of shame ; but they do it, and we are glad that they do it. 9556. But there is nothing about it in the Act of Parliament? — No, there is not ; but when I see the men taking the pains, which I have seen them take, to hunt up these young girls, and get them back to their parents, I say it does a very great amount of good. 9557. But if you had told off half-a-dozen of your own police for that Tcry purpose, it would have answered the same purpose, would it not ? — But how could we do it? 9558. It might lie made the law ? — If it. were the law that our police should take steps to re- claim those women I should be glad of it. I say, look at the metropolis, and look at the little girls that hie in the Strand {iiuUnaf.inf/ the same); I say that state of things must be altered ; it can- not continue. Only the last time I was in Lon- don I was accosted by two girls in the Strand, little things 9559. That is not exactly an answer to my question ; I want to know whether j-ou approve of the regulation of pi-ostitution, or of putting it down ? — I say, do everything you can to lessen the evil in any way ; solicitation is an ofl'ence ; is not that a recognition that prostitution exists. 9560. You are aware that that is an offence, and that the police can interfere with it if it exists ; but that is not a recognition of it ; it is a putting of it down. Now, an honourable Member asked you .about clandestine prostitution ; you spoke of women going to a particular class of house?, and being afraid to go to other houses for fear they should be seen ; but is it not the fact that there is a great deal of cl.andcstine prostitu- tion carried on which you would not know any- thing about ? — I believe there is, all over the country, amongst the higher as well as the lower classes. 9561. And you cannot give evidence as to how that state of things is going on ? — I could not speak of things beyond my knowledge ; I speak as a man of the world, who has seen a good deal of this business, and has taken a great interest in it, hoping to see the bad state of things remedied. I was, pr.aotically, nearly ruined by it, by their coming and getting around me, and I had to get rid of my property and everything. 9562. 1 imderstand you to say that these physical improvements have had rather a moral influence ; I could not gather how vou made that Mr. William Fowler — continued, out ? — If you diminish the number of these women frequenting the streets, tlie minds of young men are not familiarized with these scenes as they used to be. 956.3. Has not that familiarity with the scenes arounil the examination-room accustomed them to it ? — The examination-room is nearly a mile from the town, and it is along a mile of road where there are no houses ; it is only when you get near to it that you are aware that there 13 anything going on. The girls are so nuich more orderly in their behaviour than they used to be, that, unless you kiicw they were prostitutes, you w(nild think they were people going about their ordinary business. 9564. But tlierc is one thing you said which surprised me ; I should have thought that these women were more attractive now than when they were drunken and dirty? — So they are. 9565. Then I will ask you, would tlnat not rather tend to incrca>e prostitution? — I pointed out that these women being more attractive, the men would not run the risk of seducing the trades- men's daughters now. 9566. But I merely point out that the fact of these women being so much more cleanly and at- tractive, would rather tend to increase immorality than decrease it? — But at niglit-tlmc, with their faces covered with a veil, it would not much mat- ter to a man who was desirous of going with a woman whether she was attractive or not. 9567. But I thought you said that you could not get within a long way of them because of their odour? — That was when they were dead. Dr. Farquiinrson. 9568. Have you never heard of a case in Ports- mouth in which a woman who was on the regis- ter and trying to get honest employment, has been followed up by the police and compelled to pre- sent herself for examination? — No, I have asked many women if they had any complaint, and the only complaint they had was the irksomeness of the restraint of the hospital. 9569. If any such case happened would you be likely to be made to know of it? — Yes, I think I should, because most people know me, and they know the view I take, and I have been compli- mented upon the course that I have taken. 9570. 1 think I understand you to say that although the salary of the medical officer of your district had been increased, his duties had also been increased by the increased population ? — No, when I spoke of the parish of Portsmouth proper, that was confined within the old ramparts, and there was one medical man assigned to it for which he received 40/. a year; they have now extended the district to the medical officer ; Dr. Morley has not only the parish of Portsmouth to look after, but has a large district outside in the parish of Portsea, and an increased salary for doing so. 9571. Then there would not necessarily be any increased etHciency in the performance of his duties ; if he has more salary he has more duty to do ? — Sometimes he has very much to do, some- times verj^ little ; I have known him to complain of having hardly a patient upon his books. 9572. Upon the whole he would rather have an increase SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 387 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. \_Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued, increase of work than a diminution? — Certainly, lie has a larger district to attend to, but the old doctor told me that if he had nothing at all but these Ts-omen to attend to, they would be quite enough. 9573. What you wish to say is, that the disease is much less severe than it used to be in Portsmouth ? — I should judge so ; all I can say is that I have not buried a woman from the Lock Hospital for more than two years, and they now bear children, some of them very decent-looking children; whereas in years gone by the children and the mothers bore the marks of it. The children bore it upon their heads ; it was palpable. I said to a man one day, " Do you know what your child died of?" and he said, " What ?" I said, " Your misconduct," and I showed him the certificate. He snatched the paper out of my hand, and said, "1 will go to the colonel;" and then he got a fresh certificate from the doctor, and then he said the doctor had made a mistake. I judge from what I see that the disease has been greatly lessened ; there has not been a woman buried at the expense of the parish from the Lock Hospital for more than two years, and when the hospital was first established the women were frequently dying there ; so I should say from that that the disease had lost much of its severity. 9574. I suppose when you say these unfor- tunate women of whom you spoke died from syphilis, you would mean, not that they actually all died from the direct effects of syphilis, but that they died from the effects of want and syphilis combined? — They were neglected ; how could it be otherwise with these poor wretched things, living in cellars, sleeping, many of them for nights together, without a bed ; then they would jump into the sea. Often I would see the sailors rushing after them. There would be many cases of that sort. 9575. You have stated that you thought con- sumption and dropsy were the effects of syf)hilis? — I should say my experience led me to that view' I have seen the women with immense bodies, and directly they were dead you could hardly lift them, and sufiering from other effects as well. 9576. You told us about the situation of the examination-room at Portsmouth ; have you ever heard that disorderly scenes occur in the neigh- bourhood of the examination-room ? — I have seen Mr. Cosser's evidence, and what he says might have happened ; in fact, it is true, else he would not have said so, that he had to send a policeman upon one occasion. Now, the Act has been in operation 16 years, and he has had occasion to send for a policeman upon one occasion. Now, as to people lying in wait for these women when they come out with their certificates in their hands, it is perfect nonsense. 9577. Have any complaints been made to you of disorderly scenes outside the examination- room ? — No ; and my business on the road to the cemetery takes me past that f)lace, I should say five days a week out of the seven. 9378. You have been actually past it yourself? — Yes, I pass the place constantly; it is only with the knowledge that those women are going there that I can notice anything ; ordinary .people would not know it ; they are as quiet and peace- ful in their demeanour as possible. 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued. 9579. You have passed the place when the women were going there for examination ? — I have, three or four days a week. 9580. What was your impression from what you saw ? — Nothing could be done in a more orderly manner ; there was a stream of women out and in ; that was all you could see. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 9581. Is It not the fact that in a large numbers of cases deaths, which are really due to syphilis, are certified by medical men as being due to other causes, because they do not like to hurt the feelings of relatives ; as an undertaker you would know that ? — I have seen cases in wliich the doctors have put the primary cause and the secondary cause. Mr. Stunsfeld. 9582. Now I have some questions to put to you, and to save time I will ask you, first of all, to answer my questions direct, and then to make any additions that you like ; but to begin with a direct answer ; now you have been speaking about disease and death as a consequence of syphilis, but you do not profess to have any medical knowledge upon these subjects, I pre- sume 7 — I do not. 9583. And when you use the word " syphilis," am I correct in supposing that you mean venereal disease generally, without wanting to distinguish between the various kinds of venereal disease ? — I know there are various kinds, and when I speak of one I mean all. 9584. You do not Intend to distinguish ? — No. 9585. Are you aware, or are you not aware, that the special venereal disease called " syphilis " is not so likely to produce the rotting away and the sloughing, of which you have spoken, as venereal diseases really less serious in their character ; that you are aware of, are you not ? — I am aware that there are various kinds of the disease which take various forms ; I have seen women with their noses gone ; that was a frequent thing in old times, and they had an impediment In their speech, and then- eyesight failed. 9586. My question was this, whether you are not aware that the disease, correctly called " syphilis," Is not so likely to produce what you have called "rottenness" as the less serious venereal disease ? — Would you be kind enough to describe to me what form syphilis takes as to discharge or ulceration ? 95S7. I ask you, are you aware one way or the other whether that disease correctly called syphilis, that is to say, a constitutional disease, is the most likely to produce what you have called a rotten condition ; have you any actual know- ledge upon the subject? — No, except from actual observation. 9588. Having observed a woman in a certara condition, you would not from your knowledge know the nature of the disease of which she had died ? — No, I should judge from the general appearance of the body, and her former life, and conditions, and surroundings. 9589. But I mean your knowledge Is not a medical knowledge, and therefore you could not speak with medical authority ? — No. 3 2 9590. You 38S MINUTES OK EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. MiLLEK. [^Continued. Mr. SlaitsfvlJ — continued. 9590. You have spoken of tlie great ilimlnu- tion of venereal disease, and the deaths from venereal difsoase, both amongst j)rostitutes and soldiers ? — Yes. 9591. You are not able, 1 presume, to give the Comniittee any accurate statistics of tlie dcatiis of eitiier jjro.stitutes or soldici's from venereal deseasc from year to year, in Portsmoutli, for some years back .' — No, I am not. 9592. You arc aware, are you not, that in tlie Police Keturna we have tiiose figures about tiie diseases of prostitutes in subjected districts; in Captain Hai-ris's Annual Keturn ? — Yes. 9o9.'5. ,\rc you aware tliat in tlie Army Medical Re])orts we have similar reports of diseases, setting out the deaths of our soldiers and the cause of their deaths? — I should judge there would be such rctui-us. 9594. Then. I presume, you do not wish, in giving your evidence here to-day, to sot your evidence against the figures given by either of those documents, cither by the Police Peturns, or by the Army Medical Annual Reports ; you would accept those statistics ? — -I have not been able to question these figures. 9595. But would you be able to question them if you did see them? — I shouM like to say that, as regards the women, there Avould be, I sujiposc, a time when the hospital authorities woultl be tired of treating a certain woman, and she would be sent to the workhouse ; they could not tell what that woman died of there; how could they. 959G. Certainly, I quite understand ; therefore when you refer, as I understand you to refer, to statistics of recent years, to show the diminished deatiis among prostitutes, you would say that these statistics are not conclusive ; that there may be some of these women die not in liospital and not upon the register ? — Certainly, there are bound to be. 9597. If I recollect, you were examined before the Koyal Commission ? — I was. 9598. Some questions about the deaths of prostitutes were put to you, I think, by Mr. Rylands. At Question 11043 you were asked, " Could you tell us the number of deaths amongst prostitutes in 1867, and you said : " 1 should not think in 1867 there were more than 30 or 40." I am not sure whether those were the number of prostitutes whom you had buried, or the total number, but I think you buried the greater part of them? — I buried nearly all. 9599. Then, in 1867 you said there were not more than from 30 to 40, and then Mr, Kylands referred you to Captain Harris's Annual Pejiort, Avhich showed the deaths only of seven ])rostitutes during that year; and in answer to his question, 11060, you explained that they leave the hospital and get oft' the register, and then they die in the workhouse or elsewhere? — I understand it would be so. 9600. And I understand you to say so to-day? —Yes. 9601. So that in accordance with that view of yours you would not take the deaths recorded in Captain Harris's Return amongst prostitutes as exhausting the number amongst that class ? — No, I should not think he would have that knowledge of the matter that I should. Mr. Sfaiisfeld — continued. 9002. But you went further to day, and you spoke of the death-rate in Portsmouth amongst the whole jiopnlation having greatly improved of late years, so as to make Portsmouth compare very favourably with other towns, and you attri- buted that improvement in the death-rate over the whole jiopnlation of Portsmouth to the work- ing of the Contagious Diseases Acts? — 1 said it helped it considerably. 9603. What is the jiopulation of Portsmouth? —135,000 I put it at, but 1 am told it is 137,000. 9604. Are vou really prepared to abide by the opinion that the death-rate amongst that po]nda- tioii of 137,000 has been i)crcc]itibly improved by the diminution of deaths amongst prostitutes and soldiers owing to the Contagious Diseases Acts? —Yes. 9605. That is your opinion ?— Yes, if I, in 1852, bury 100 soldiers, and if in 1872, with the foreigners who came home in the troopers, 1 bury only 20, is not that a gain, and 1 ask what does that gain arise from? Tliat would include the children moreover. Every week that wretched old woman, Mrs. French, used to come and say, " I want a coffin for a still-born ciiild ;" but that is no longer so. 9606. Can you give the Committee any figures as to the death-rate in Portsmouth ? — The last few weeks the death-rate has been higher; we have had an epidemic of diphtheri.i, which has increased it. 9607. But will you undertake to say, in the first place, that the death-rate has greatly diminished in Portsmouth of late years ; and secondly, that it has diminished, owing to any extent to the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts; can you give the Committee any figures to bear that out? — We have them published in every local paper every week, and it is a matter of public comment that we have stood favourably, and it has attracted a large number of visitors owing to the healthiness of t!ie town ; our medical officer of health has taken special notice of it. 96liS. Have you many im]iro\eiiients in the town which have favourably aifectcd the sanitary condition ? — I sometimes fancy that some of the improvements of the town have brought in medical conditions which have gone against us. 9609. But the removal of the ramparts is believed to have added largely to the salubrity of the town ? — Certainly it has. 9610. You have spoken of the great improve- ment of the death-rate of the large population of Portsmouth, and you have expi-essed your opinion that that imjirovement was at any rate partly in consequence of the Contagious Diseases Acts, therefore I ask you if you can give me any figures to show me what the death-rate was 10 or 15 years ago, and what it is nov/ ? — Only from one's general idea of the business being done. 9611. You have not any figures to give me? —No. 9612. Now, when you state that previously to the Act the women were held in thraldom by brothel keepers, but that the ease was very different now, in what does the difference con- sist ? — I have known one man have 30 women under his control, and they were compelled to prostitute themselves for the benefit of the house to keep the customei's together; I have known cases SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 389 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. ^Continued. Mr. Siansfeld — continued, cases In which women have been kept living in cellars. There was a man who kept a beerhouse in a certain street, and he had also a house oppo- site, which he kept as a brothel, at which fiddling and dancing was going on every night, and the women under his control were some of the worst in the town ; I frequently complained of them. This house was nearly opposite the principal entrance to St. Mary's Church ; the conduct of these women became, at last, so shameful that the church became quite deserted, because decent people would not pass through the street. The women would take the men from the beerhouse to the brothel opposite, which was without a blind to the window, and you could see what passed in the room. 9613. I ask you with regard to a former answer you gave, in what respect the women were formerly held in greater thraldom than now? — They were so numerous there was not accom- modation for them. If a woman was turned out of one house she found it a very difficult matter to get accommodation at another. It used to be said, " Jane Smith is kicked out, and there is the street for her." 9614. Then it amounts to this, that, owing to whatever cause it may be, the women are better treated by the brothel-keepers now than they were then ? — Yes ; and you must bear in mind that the system is altered. They are not kept in flocks as they used to be ; they are more sepa- rated ; they are more under their own control ; they take little tenements, and rent them. 9615. Then they are not in brothels? — I call a house a brothel if a woman keeps a house and takes home people to it. 9616. But that is not the definition that we have accepted ? — That is where I think there has been a great error in Captain Harris's report, that he has not taken the same thing as a brothel which I have. 9617. You think their condition has improved ; that they are not so badly treated by brothel- keepers, and that their condition does not so nearly approach to that of slavery as it used to do ? — I do. 9618. I want to know how you give the Con- tagious Diseases Acts the credit of "that improve- ment : how have the Contiigious Diseases Acts been effectual in effecting that improvement ? — ■ By greatly diminishing the number of common women, in one way ; and then any man who kept those houses had an idea that they were subject to a certain amount of surveillance and looking up, and all the rest of it, and a great many people, when it came to be recognised, gave it up ; in fact, there is no number of people making fortunes at brothel-keeping now ; it is no longer a lucrative business, whereas it used to be. 9619. How do you know? — Because I have been 13 years upon the finance committee, and it is our duty to know the reason why every house which has not paid its rates has failed to do so, and I can see that a number of those houses are untenanted. 9620. But that would include those houses where women live ? — If you call a house where a woman lives alone a brothel 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. 9621. Putting your own definition upon the word "brothel" would you say that brothels had diminished, or not? — Yes, certainly they have, of that kind which I have been de- scribing. 9622. Do you mean the total number ? — Yes, all together. The fear of the police interfering with public-houses has altered the system. 9623. It has decreased, because the number of prostitutes has decreased ? — Yes. 9624. But the prostitutes, as you say, are more respectable than they were? — Yes, in appearance. 9625. And they are better clothed? — Yes. 9626. And they are better paid, I presume ? — Yes, they are. 9627. The number of brothel-keepers may be reduced; but, giving the number of brothel- keepers now, why should the number of brothel- keepers be less now than then? — Because a number of the women are in a position now to take places for themselves, and they will' not submit to the exaction and imposition which those rascals used to practice. 9628. What I wish to ask you is this : how is this improved condition the consequence of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? —Women at one time, as i said before, wei-e in a more reckless and desperate condition, and they did not care what they did ; whether they lived or died ; there was no one to look after them. 9629. But I want to ask you, would you point out to me what there is in the Acts, or in their administration, which has tended to produce this eff'ect ? — A woman is in a state of disease, and is compelled to go to the hospital to be cleansed. Surely there must be a great deal of difference between a prostitute in that wretched state and a woman coming out clean with a chance of honest employment before her. 96.30. Is there any other part of the Act to which you would refer, except the provision of hospitals, as having tended to produce this bene- ficial effect ? — I said just now that women would not like to go up before a gentleman like Dr. Parsons, our medical man, and expose themselves with dirty clothes on like they used to do ; they •TO up decently clad, like domestic servants, and there is not that horrible use of bad language in the streets which there used to be, except when the women are drunk. 9631. I presume you do not go so far as to say that if our object were to reduce the number of prostitutes and to keep them out of the reach of the brothel-keepers, the best plan to do so would-be to pass such Acts as these ? — I am not going to say that the Acts could not be improved ; I think perhaps they might be ; I should like to see them extended ; we should not then have country girls coming in from all round. 9632. But take the Acts where they operate ; are you prepared to say that there is no better conceivable method of protecting the women from the thraldom under which they used to be to the brothel-keepers than the enactment of these Acts? — I see nothing at present. 9633. Are you prepared to say that a fort- nightly examination is necessary to keep the women out of the thraldom of the brothel-keepers? 3 c 3 —I do 390 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEKOEE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [ Continued. Mr. Stanffdd — continued. — I do not say that ; I do not quite mean that, and I hoi>e you will not take me to mean that. AVhat I s;iy is, that there is not that system of a man kec'inng a house sueh as the " Fortune of War,'' which had six tenements at the side of the house, rated to somebody else, and some on the other side filled with women, and those women had to do what that man told them; they had to go out when he liked and come in when he liked, and if they brought any money home it was taken from them ; they will not submit to that any longer. 9G;)4. If they will not submit to that, that is not a consequence of the fortnightly examination, is it ? — I know it is a consequence of the fort- nightly examination ; what else could be the cause of it. 9635. But I want to know from you what is the cause of it? — The women now go out; at least they leave their homes once a fortnight, and there is a better state of things amongst tiiem. 963G. If I follow your reasoning correctly, you think that the institution of a police specially appropriated to supervise the condition of these women is likely to have a beneficial effect in that respect? — Yes, certainly. 9637. But you would not go so far as to say that such a system of additional police supei'- vision could not be instituted without the fort- nightly examinations ? — I think the practical benefit arises from keeping those women in a state of health. 9638. You would justify the examination from a hygenic point of view, as tending to produce a good state of health ? — Yes. 9639. But jnitting that aside for a moment, and considering that you were speaking of the imjjrovemcnt in the condition of the women, as far as their relation to the brothel-keepers was concerned, you would not say that a fortnightly examination was necessary for that purpose ? — What I say is, that the fact of women being ex- amined periodically, and kept in a state of health, gives the woman an independent spirit, and they are no longer cowed down, and they would not any longer submit to the state of things which existed 20 years ago; the women are a different class of women; they have more of the feelings of humanity than they had about them 20 years ago. 9640. Supposing that it were shown to j'ou that the result of this state of things had not been to improve their health, would you still aj)provc of it on the ground of the improvement it effected in their relations to the brothel-keepers. What I want to know is whether you approve of the examination, upon the score of health or upon the score of morals ? — I would stand up for the system of examination upon the score of health, and I think every other improvement that has been effected follows. 9641. Then, I think, in your opinion, the great thing is to improve the health of the women, and if the health of the women is im- proved, you think the other beneficial influences follow ? — Yes. 9642. Now upon the subject of health ; are you familiar with Captain Harris's Returns ? — I have not seen them for some time. 9643. I have them here, and what I find with regard to the diseases of women is this : that be- ginning with the year 1867, the annual ratio per Mr. Stansfeld — continued, cent, in cases of disease of women, calculated upon the average number ujjou the register, was 97'14 : that is to say, that each woman, upon the average, was found to be diseased about once a year ; I find that that increases almost regularly, and that in 1880 the proportion has risen from 97 to 123 per cent. ; that shows during the operation of the Acts an increase of disease amongst the women who are subjected to those Acts V — But will he begin from No. 1 to 100, and let them be the identical women, because I know women coming into Portsmouth. 9644-5. But what I would ask you is this; here are Government statistics which we are asked to accept and to believe in ; you are not prepared to dispute these figures, are you ? — I have not quite followed you. ]\Ir. Buhcer.'] I would ask if the figures are general figures ? Jlr. IStnmfehJ. 9646. No ; I am taking Portsmouth figures now. (To the ff'itnexs.) I will tell you what is the eff'ect of these figures. The effect of these figures is that if j-ou start with the year 1867 you will find almost a constant tendency to an in- creased frequency of the disease amongst the women who arc subjected and examined? — Per- haps some one better acquainted with the subject could give you an answer upon that point, but my opinion is that a great many women come into the town, some get discharged and taken off the register, and fresh ones come in, the number constantly being recruited by young girls from the country who are diseased, and who come in for the purpose of cure. 9647. Has the number coming in from the country increased ? — I could not say exactly, because I have left .St. Mary-street, which was the head-quarters of that sort of thing. 9648. However, I put these figures to you, and ask you how far you accept them or question them ? — I would sooner take a medical man's opinion, and if the figures go against the Acts I should like to know the reason of it. I am quite prepared to stand up for this, that the severest form of the disease has greatly diminished. 9649. We have these figures given to us by the Army and Navy Medical Department? — Or else what has all my experience gone for. 9650. If the figures given me by the Army and Navy Medical Department do not show a diminution of the most serious form of disease, would you say you would differ from the figures of the Army and Navy Medical Department? — I should feel inclined to do so. Perhaps it may arise from the men being more carefully examined than they were, because some years ago they were not examined, and they might go pottering about at the chemists without getting any better. 9651. But I think there has been no time when there was no examination of soldiers ; ac- cording to the evidence we have had before us there is no tendency to increase the examination of soldiers ? — My experience has been to lead me to believe that there has been a good deal of disease amongst the soldiers, for what should they want to go to the chemists in High-street for ; they are constantly going there, and what should that be for except to cure themselves privately. 9652. But SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 391 6 June 1882.] Mr. MiLLEE. [ Continued. Mr. Stanafeld — continued. 9652. But we have had evidence from the Army and Navy Medical Department, which we are bound to consider the best, and I presume you do not wish to set yourself against them ? — Certainly not. 9653. Now you gave a list of 200 tenements which you said had been pulled down, which were formerly occupied by prostitutes ; I assume you do not attribute that to the Acts ? — I attribute it to the Acts only in this sense, that if a man cannot get any rental for his crazy property he will offer it for a public improvement. 9651:. I understand now that you attribute the reduction in these tenements, which were formerly occupied as brothels, to the Acts in this sense, that you think the Acts have reduced the number of prostitutes, and therefore the number of dwell- ings inhabited has necessarily followed suit ? — That is so. 9655. You said that many pensioners used to keep brothels, and that now they were not allowed, because the pensions would be stopped ; that is not a consequence of tlie Acts ? — It arises as a consequence in this way, that our police would not be justified in pointing out any- body who committed such an infraction of the War Office regulations, but these special police h.ave done it ; 1 know they have. 9656. Why would not your police be justified in noting that they knew a pensioner was keejiing a brothel, and why would the metropolitan police be justified in doing that ? — Because policemen, even in Portsmouth, must not be too officious ; even brothel-keepers have a little influence, and they would go round and say, " Unless I can have a httle protection, I shall remember you on the 1st of next November." 9657. Your police, the local police, would not be so independent as the metropolitan police, that is what you mean? — Certainly not. 9658. Y^ou are aware that local police are bound to aid in the suppression of brothels ? — No doubt. 9659. And you are aware that the metro- politan police are not ? —No, but then you see how very rarely any prosecutions have been in- stituted. 9660. With regard to the power exercised by the contagious diseases police, can you tell me what powers they have under the Act? — I have already stated that if the Acts were strictly worked according to the type set up there, I should say their power is confined entii-ely to seeing that those women go to the hospital to be examined, but as a matter of fact they do a great deal more than that. 9661. They do a great deal more than that, but not by virtue of any powers conferred or duties imposed upon them in the text of the Acts themselves? — No, I see nothing in the Acts calling upon them to restore a young girl to her parents, but they do it to a great extent. 9662. Y''ou stated that in your ojoiniou clan- destine prostitution had greatly diminished in Portsmouth during the existence of the Acts ? — Yes. 9663. You stated that it was not for you to express an opinion upon that which was clandestine and therefore hidden, but that was your impression ? — My impression is that the 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, number of young girls who used to go astray has greatly diminished because of the fear of being warned up to be examined. 9664. But of course that fear might opierate in either of two different ways upon their njinds ; it might prevent them from falling into a life of prostitution, or it might induce them to become clandestine prostitutes, and so avoid the law ? — But it cannot be; you have it in this way; a number of women will say, " I am going to make prostitution a living; I am not going to be inter- fered with by women who do not conform to the same rules as I do." They give information, and those women are looked after immediately ; they say, " Why do you not look after these women who are doing the same thins- as I am .'' Mr. Bulwer. 9665. You mean that those on the register would call the attention of the police to the others? — Y''es. Mr. Stanpfeld. 9666. That being your opinion, do you think that fornication has diminished in a corresponding degree ? — Y''es ; as Mr. Cesser says, a boy going home now is let alone ; it used to be a common thing even for schoolboys to be diseased ; it is not so now. I have a boy in my office of 19, and I saw a woman accost him, but that evil is not nearly so great as it used to be. 9667. Ifa woman is not allowed to accost a boy, that is not owing to the Contagious Diseases Acts, is it ? — Y'^es, it is: because in the first place, as it has diminished the number, the women are not in that desperate state that they used to be. 9668. It rests upon that in your mind that the effect of the operation of the Acts has been to diminish the women ? — To diminish the number, and to keep them from that desperate state in which they were ready to snap up anybody. 9669. I asked you whether you thought that fornication had correspondingly diminished ? — I think so. 9670. There is a large reduction according to your own view in the number of women practising prostitution in Portsmouth, and I ask is there, in your opinion, a corresponding diminution in the practice of fornication by men? — Y'es, I think the general tone of morality in the town has vastly improved; there are various religious agencies in the town which have done a great deal of good. 9671. As far as that is concerned, that would not be owing to the Acts? — I am not going to refrain from giving credit where credit is due. 9672. As far as the Acts are concerned, they profess in the words of the Eoyal Commission, before which you appeared, " To render the pro- cess of prostitution as nearly inocuous as possi- ble." Now you say you believe the result of such Acts has been to diminish the practice of sexual vice upon the part of men ? — Yes. 9673. That in spite of that assurance, whether it be well founded or not, that they can have women free from disease, and in spite of the greater cleanliness and attractiveness of the women, men go to them in diminishing numbers? — Y''es, I think so ; I shall be borne out by the 3 c 4 opponents 892 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE U June 1882.] Mr. MiLLEU. [ Continued. ^Ir. Staitsfcld — continued, opponents of the Act in saying this, that I think the tone of morality in the town has greatly im- proved with botii sexes. 9G74. But 1 want you to sever in your own mind two things ; I agree with you that there has been a moral improvement fri;m other causes than the Contagious Diseases Acts, but what I ask vou is this : take the Contagious Diseases Acts and their operation into your consideration only, do you believe that legislation which has held out tiie hope of being enabled to practice vice with impunity is likely to have diminished sexual vice / — i'es, in this way : I do not think a bov of 14 or 15, without he was very precocious indeed, would go seeking a woman, but I have seen boys very much younger seized hold of by women and taken round corners. 9675. ]5ut there is nothing in the Acts to pre- vent a woman taking boys now ? — But I say that the (act of the women being fewer in number, and better paid, has had a tendency to prevent that. Mr. Dulioer. 9670. And I understand you to say also, that they are better conducted ; that is one reason, is it not? — Yes, I should say so. Mr. Stansfeld. 9677. But a short time ago, did you not admit, in answer to ]Mr. Fowler, that it was not impro- bable that sexual vice amongst men should have incurred some inci-ease in consequence of the im- munity held out by the Acts ? — Yes, that is the natural tendency of strangers coming into the town ; a large number of country fellows come into the town to spend a night, and they go to the theatre ; and with people who have that tendency, you cannot help that. 9678. Therefore, as far as the Contagious Diseases Acts have been concerned, you would not say that they had promoted moralitj' amongst men, seeing that they think they can sin with im- punity? — Speaking of these lads, I think that the Acts have prevented the extension "of im- morality. P679. But do not you think it would be pos- sible to ])revent women accosting or pulling boys about in the streets, without passing a Conta- gious Diseases Act ; are there not many ways in which that would be possible ? — Yes, if you largely increased our police force, that would be one thing. 9680. But why should you largely increase the force; you have only four or five of the Conta- gious Diseases. Acts police in Portsmouth? — Yes, 1 think there are four of them. 9681. You would not want more than four or five extra borough police to do the like ? — If the women were in their natural abandoned state now, I think that number would riot be sufl&cient. 9682. But you told us that you had only four or five for the whole of Portsmouth ; supj)0sing you were to do an equivalent work ; I will not say exactly the same, but at all events supposing you were to do all that work which you say is moralising in its character, you would not want more than four or five to do it; for instance, to watch those houses and to warn the girls: you could easilv have four or five men to do that ? — Mr. Stansfeld — continued. If the law were altered so that the work now done by the metropolitan jjolice were to be done by our constables, I think they could do it. 9683. You expressed an ojiinion, which 1 regretted to hear, and wl»ch I will give you the opportunity of modifying if you are inclined ; you said that the Christian men and women took no care for these unfortunate women, and that it was all ncmsense ? — Yes, we have only two cases in our town ; one is by a good Christian woman named Colebrook, and another a small private house in St. George's-square ; those two ladies are the only |)ersons 1 ever knew who attempted the rescue of the women. 9684. And Miss Kobinson ?— Miss Robinson has a large coffee-palace there. There has been a good deal said about that, and I should like to say something more about it. 9685. But I would rather keep you to the women. We have had evidence not particularly applying to Portsmouth but to tlie country generally, showing that there has been a great development of Christian activity in the direction of befriending and aiding those women ^ — It has not occuiTed in Portsmouth. 9686. You confine your statements to Ports- mouth ? — Yes, Mrs. Colebrook has done all she could with her limited means, and I am not going to detract one iota from what she and others have done, but to do the work of the Contagious Diseases Acts you must have very much larger machinery than she has got, and, besides, these women go there voluntarily, and without you have the power of compulsion you can do nothing. 9687. You have expressed your opinion as difl'ering from that given by Mr. Cosser, the head of your police, on almost every portion of his evidence ? — Yes, to a great extent I have where I think he has taken too much credit to himself, I have said so, and where I have said that they are shutting up these brothels, I have showu you, and you can see for yourself, that the jrame is not worth the candle. You told the Committee that you thought the prosecution of certain houses con- ducted as brothels was futile, inoperative, and costly; I will refer first to the brothels. ]\Ir. Cosser stated that he closed certain public-houses and beershops, and we have it in evidence from him that there are no public-houses now in Ports- mouth conducted as brothels ; I understand you do not approve of the course he pursued in closing those houses? — I do not say I disajsprove of it; I say that Mr. Cosser had nothing to do with the closing of the beerhouses in the first instance, of which there were 50 or 60. 9689. I thought you said there was no good in closing those houses; that they practically opened again under some disguise ; that the publican would professedly no longer use his public-house for the purpose of prostitution, but he would have one or two or more houses attached, or in the immediate neighbourhood? — I will take his own words ; he mentioned a house in Warblington- street ; I say the closing of that house and pre- venting that house from selling beer has had no effect upon the character of the inhabitants of the tenements. 9690. You are aware, are you not, that he was only SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 393 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, only fulfilling the duty put upon him by the Legislature in the course he took; he was bound to prosecute the public-house and the beershop keepers, was he not ? — Yes, but the public-house had been closed a good many years ago. 9691. But was he, or was he not, fulfilling his duty in the com-se he took? — -Yes, but I say now that if a person could show him without fear of falling through that a certain person let beds for those women, he would be bound to take it up, but there are certain things one must not see. 9692. Whether it is a beneficial thing or not to close I rothels, it is a duty thrown upon the local police to do it? — Yes. 9693. And Captain Han-is, as you are aware, records every j^ear a reduction in the number of public-houses and beershops which have been used as brothels, and he gives the credit to the Contagious Diseases Acts ; I suppose that you do not agree with Captain Harris? — I do not ; I do not see how that could be ; he could not say so of Portsmouth. 9694. Then I come to the brothels, not public- houses, and as to those, 1 think you expressed the opinion that his action in closing certain of those brothels had been futile, inoperative, and costly: was that so ? — Yes- 9693. But there again he was fulfilling a duty, was he not ? — He was compelled to take that action because two men complained to the magis- trates, and he was bound over to prosecute, and it resulted in a cost to the ratepayers of over 200 Z, in King William-place alone. 9696. Would you have left those brothels un- closed, or what would you have done ? — The law was bound to be put in motion, and he could not refrain from it, but I question whether he woidd, upon his own responsibility, have put the law in motion against them. 9697. But if he had not been compelled, you would have preferred that he should not have taken that course? — 1 think, while there are certain evils to be borne, you must bear them in a way the least offensive to the public ; while you have women living in Portsmouth it is no use driving them out of a quiet place like King William-place and driving them into a more public part of the town. 9698. Then, practically, you would take no steps? — My opinion is, that as a member of society, I would do my very best to put down the evil existing ; but while endeavouring to put down that dreadful evil I would not create a greater. As a man of the world, you must know that people come from abroad, men, and soldiers, and all the rest of it ; they will fly to the women, and while they do that you must have accommo- dation for them or else you will have them in the public places offending the public eye. 9699. Your opinion then, is rather opposed to the law under which brothels are suppressed? — If there were a more eflScacious way I would be o-lad of it ; I would not squander money so iiieflicaciously as it has been done here. Mr. Bulwer. 9700. But as regards the putting down of a brothel, a policeman has no more power except as an informer than any member of the public ? — So I understand. In our borough we have as 0.75. Mr. Biilioc.r — continued. fine a police force as anywhere about ; we are very particular about their character. To the Chairinan.~\ I understand the law to be this, that if two neighbouring rate- paying parishioners complain of a brothel as a nuisance, the police would be bound to interfere and conduct the prosecution as part of their ordinary dutj- ? — Mr. Stansfeld. 9701-2. And then only if they are bound over to prosecute by the magistrates ? — I said I lived at No. 19, St. Mary-street, and it was in- juring my business to that extent that I endea- voured to put the law in motion, but I could not get a second neighbour to go with me. Chairman. 9703. I have stated the general law in that respect, and you have, I beCeve, no special law relating to Portsmouth ? — No. 9704. With respect to the parishioners being entitled to a reward of 10 I., would you not rather say that you are not familiar with the law ? — I rather think that the persons who com- plained with respect to King William-place had a sum of money given to them. 9705. Out of what? — Out of the costs. 9706. Perhaps it was out of the costs ; that is all you know about it ? — Out of the costs a cer- tain portion was appropriated to them. 9707. You have spoken of the beneficial results following upon the warning of young girls by the Contagious Diseases Acts police ; Mr. Cesser told us that his police did the same thing; are you aware that that was his evidence? — I think that Mr. Cosser, when he mentioned those cases, exhausted all that had come under his observation ; if he had had any more he would have brought them up. 9708. Can you see any reason why his police should not do that? — I think It would be unwise that they should embark in a business of that kind ; that it would be foreign to their duties, though as an old member of the committee I should not censure them for it. 9709. It would not be foreign to their duties If they were set apart for that particular pur- pose ? — Not if the law were altered. 9710. And It would not be necessary for that purpose that there should be a fortnightly exami- nation ? — I do not think that you could do any- thlno- unless you kept those women in a state of health. 9711. I am speaking of the police endeavour- ino- to prevent the women falling into that kind of life ; if you had all houses of doubtful and bad repute watched by the police, and the police instructed to save or warn girls likely to fall into evil ways, that could be done without the fort- nightly examination ? — I would go for that, heart and soul, if it could be done ; only there must be a change of duties every now and then, for, with young men you can see the danger arising from contact with young girls. 9712. You have denied the accuracy of Mr. Cesser's statement, that there are no licensed houses conducted as brothels ; you have ex- plained in what way they were practically con- ducted as brothels? — 1 did not say that quite ; 3D at 394 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [ Continued. Chairman — continued, at one time the women would go into the public- houses, and commit fornication in the licensed houses ; now those jjublicans are more careful, and do not allow that, but there is an opportu- nity afforded in the places attached to them. 9713. So that, jiractically speaking:, in fact, you criticised the accuracy of Mr. Cesser's statements? — He has not put it quite in the same way as I should put it. 9714. Are you aware that in Captain Harris's return there is an account year by year of the number of public-houses, and of the annual re- duction in the number of public-houses and beershops which are used as brothels in each district ? — What does he say about Ports- mouth ? 9715. You are aware that he gives a return? — I am aware that he gives a return of some sort. 9716. In that return he shows (and what Captain Harris tells us would be thus far in dis- agreement with Mr. Cosser) that there had been no public-houses where common women resided, and were provided with accommodation for the purpose of prostitution in Portsmouth, since the year 1869, and that there had been none where they were provided with accommodation for the purpose of prostitution without residing, since the year 1877 ; those are the statements of Captain Harris's return; do you dispute the accuracy of those statements ? — No ; it is prac- tically the same thing as my own. I say the owners know the penalty ; the tenants have short notice; the landlord says: "Now you must be discreet ; if you do not, out you go." If there is the slightest infraction they have a month's notice, and lose their interest in the house, so they are bound to be as cunning as possible. Mr. Bulicer. 9717. Do I understand that if prostitution is not carried on in the public-house which falls within the return, it is going on next door, or somewhere adjacent; that is your evidence? — Yes, as regards that. ^ ]\Ir. Stansfeld. 9718. So that in Captain Harris's Return the statement of this annual reduction, as far as Portsmouth is concerned, in the number of public- houses and beershops used as brothels, and which he attributes to the influence of the Acts, is not an entirely accurate statement ? — Certainly not as regards the public-houses, because to take away the license of a public-house is a most serious matter: whereas the license could be ob- tained for nothing at one time, the license under the present system has quadrupled the value of the house. 9719. You stated that you attended all the meetings upon the subject of the Contagious Diseases Acts at Portsmouth, which you could attend, and j'ou said that those meetings had been failures ? — Yes, I did. 9720. You attended the meeting which took place on the 11th of June 1865 ; was that meet- ing a failure? — Yes. 9721. In what sense was it a failure ? — The Mr. Stansfdd — continued, room was not a third full ; there were only about 120 person.t in the room. 9722. Who occupied the chair? — The Pev. Mr. Allwell, the vicar of St Luke's. 9723. I do not want to go into the chair myself; but I may be compelled to do it if you make statements of that kind ; I have a very vivid recollection of the meeting, and there- fore I ask you, do j-ou mean to say that the room was only occupied by about 120 persons, and that it was not more than one-third full ? — I certainly do, because I took several friends of mine with me. 9724. I am aware that you did, because wc heard what you had to say ? — But they did not give me an opportunity of expressing my views. 9725. Surely tliey gave you tlie o]>portuiiity of speaking ? — I was limited to about 10 minutes. 9726. You hiive spoken of the way in which young people, boys particularly, used to be liable to the solicitations of these women, and you spoke upon that occasion of a case which occurred in a school in Portsea some years ago, in which 11 boys, not one 15 years of age, were suffering from disease contracted from these women ? — Yes, from a particular woman, a girl. 97ii7. And you thought that it would be for the advantage of boys in schools at Portsmouth and Portsea ? — Now, pray excuse me ; that is what you said, and that is just what I did not mean. 9728. Will you have the kindness to wait till I put my question to you ; you thought it would be for the advantage of boys at Portsmouth that such Acts as the Contagious Diseases Acts should exist ? — No, I did not, and I do not think so now, and tliat is what I say is the unfairness of the opponents of the A cts. 9729. Then will you tell the Committee what you did mean ? — I only pointed out the fact. I said I knew from the evidence of the parents that a girl at the lower end of Portsea had diseased a number of boys. 9730. You gave that as a reason in favour of the Acts? — Yes; and that in all pi'obability if the Acts had been in existence at that time, the injury to those unfortunate hoys would not have occurred ; you will recollect that you said I advocated the producing of clean women for little boys ; I did not say anything of the kind. 9731. Will you show us the distinction; I want to know what you are prepared to abide by now? — I think the injury to those poor little boys would not have arisen if the Contagious Diseases Acts had been in operation. 9732. Wliy? — Tlie girl was evidently a loose girl, and must have been in a bad way of life for a good while, and slie must, if the Acts had then existed, inevitably have been discovered by the police, and taken to the hospital. 9733. Therefore, if any girl had got hold of those boys it would not have been that diseased girl; is that j-our argument? — I think it is a general idea with a woman who is diseased, that if she can get hold of a child she can get relieved of it ; and I know a man who violated a little child upon Southsea Common ; he was diseased, and he ruined that child, that being his notion. 9734. That is another matter' Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 395 6 June 1882.] Mr. Miller. [ (Continued. Mr. Bulwer.l There is no doubt that there is such an illusion among some men. Mr. Stansfeld. 9735. What I want to know is this, how would the Contagious Diseases Acts, if they had been in operation at the time to which you referred, have prevented those boys from suffering ? — Naturally ; in all probability the girl would not have been diseased, and she would not have been so reckless as to have gone and thrown herself away upon boys like that ; the probability is that if the Act had been in existence she would not have been a loose girl at all. 9736. I understand the view you wish to-day to express is this, that there would have been a less chance of those boys being got hold of by that girl, and that if they had been got hold of, probably she would not have been diseased ? — I know what my feeling was when I was 15 or 16 years of age, and the idea of having to do with a Mr. Stansfeld — continued, woman was quite foreign to me. I believe that applies to young men, as a rule, unless they are badly influenced. 9737. Do I state your view correctly in this way, that if there had been a Contagious JDiseases Act in Portsea at that time, either the girl would not have thought it worth her while to get hold of those boys, or, if it had happened, the pro- bability is she would not have been diseased? — Yes, I only say that that girl would not have gone to the length she did ; she would have been stopped. Sir. Bulwer. 9738. You are of opinion it is better, if a boy is seduced by a girl, that he should not catch the pox ? — Yes, certainly ; I have seen some dreadful examples of boys having it ; I see it in their children now. 0.75. 3 D 2 396 MTNTTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE Friday, 9ih June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT; Mr. Cavendith Bentiuck. Mr. Bulwcr. Mr. Burt. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquliar.sou. Mr. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. Ernest Xoel. Mr. O'Shauglinessy. Mr. iStansfcld. Mu. O'SHAUGHNESRV, in the Chair. Mr. James Bell Jardine, m.d., called in ; and Examined. Mr. Osborne More/an. 9739. I BELIEVE you arc a Doctor of Medi- cine ? — Yes. 9740. And you were formerly Assistant Sur- geon and are now Sui-geon of the Lock Hospital at Chatham ?— Yes. 9741. IIow many years did you hold the ap- pointment of assistant surgeon ? — Nine years. 9742. And how long have you been surgeon? — One year and a quarter. 9743. How many years have you been in prac- tice ? — About 48 or 49 years. 9744. And I l)elicve that you have held the office of Medical Officer of Plealth at Cliatham for 18 years? — Nearly 19 years. 9745. You remember on the 22nd January 1875 Caroline Wybrow appearing before you in the examining-room at the Lock Hospital at Chatham ?— I do. 9746. Will you be kind enough to state what took place upon that occasion ? — On the first day she came, on the 22nd of January, she merely appeared in the room and announced that she was not in a fit state to be seen on that day. 9747. From natural causes? — Yes; but prior to that I asked her how she came there ; I asked her if slie had been seen by the inspector, if she had signed a paper, and if she understood what that paper meant (because I do that with every one that comes), and if she understood that she was to come up once a foi'tnight ; and she said she understood that. 9748. Did she make any other observation on that occasion ? — She made no other remark upon that day, except that she was not fit to be seen. 9749. You did not, of course, examine her on that day ?— Not at all ; I gave her a paper to come again that day week. 9750. Did slie come again on that day week ? — She did, on the 29th of January. S751. What took place upon that second inter- view ? — She changed her manner altogether. At first, as I have already stated, she said nothing, except that she could not appear, and that she understood it; but then she said, as I understood her, not only that she could not be seen, hut more, that she would not be seen under any cir- cumstances. Mr. Osliorne 3/(;r^«?i— continued. 9752. Had she made any objection of that kind the first time that you saw her ? — She made no objection the first time. 9753. Upon her making that statement what course did you adopt ? — I had never had a case before, and I have never had a case since where they have refused to be examined, and I was rather puzzled, and went out and spoke to the inspector of police, Mr. Capon, and I said, " Here is this girl; are you sure, under all the circum- stances under which you have brouglit her here, that she is on the town and thoroughly on the town ? " and he said he was perfectly satisfied that she was. I said then (audit appeared after- wards that I was in error there) that I would take her in on the L. form ; that is to say, on suspicion of being diseased. I construed the third section of the Act of 1869 rather differently than it was meant, and I have always taken care since about that. I thought it was left entirely to the discretion of the doctor as to whetlier there was reason to suppose that a girl was diseased. From my experience, whenever there has been a little difficulty in their being seen I have gene- rally found that they have been diseased ; so I thought that, most probably, she was diseased. Again, if I did not take her in on that form she would have to go before a magistrate and pro- bably be imprisoned, as she had signed the form, and the police were ready to swear that she was acting, as far as they could judge, as a prostitute. 9754. Then I suppose I may say tliat from considerations of kindness to her you signed this L. form? — It was merely out of kindness that I took her in on that form, because I thought that in a few days she would be examined, and if free from disease would be liberated. 9755. Then on the 29th of January 1875, you certified under Form L. ? — Yes, then she was confined for five days under suspicion that she might be diseased. 9756. What was your reason for saying that you had reasonable ground to believe that she was affected with contagious disease? — That was what I thought. 9757. I gather that you thouglit so, because you find that women who are unwilling to submit themselves SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 397 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jardine. \_L' ontinued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, themselves to examination are diseased ? — They are always unwilling when they are diseased ; they would escape you in any way. 9758. Therefore you detained her, under Sec- tion 3 of the Act of 1869, for five days ? — Yes. 9759. And you signed the certificate L. in the schedule to that Act? — Yes. 9760. What was the next step that you took with regard to this girl ? — She was removed into another word, not the ward that I attended, but the ward of Mr. Weld, who was then chief sur- geon. 9761. When did you next see her after the 29th of January ? — I had heard nothing more of her. On the 6th of February I saw her along ■with Mr. Weld, because he had in the meantime made a partial examination, and believed that she was suifering from gonorrhoja. She disputed that, but she consented, I believe, at the sugges- tion of the lady superintendent, that I should examine her without an instrument. 9762. When you speak of the lady superin- tendent, do you mean Miss Webb? — Miss Webb. 9763. Did the girl come up for examination again ? — Yes, on the 5th of February. 9764. On the 5th of February you saw her for the third time ? — iTes. 9765. In the meantime I think you said that she had seen Miss Webb ? — Miss Webb had been speaking to her, and had advised her to submit to examination. 9766 I presume that she remained in the hos- pital between the 29th of January and the 5th of February ? — She remained in the hospital during that time. She was five days under the L. Form, but then Mr. Weld had examined her, as he says, indifferently. He saw a discharge, and he took her in in the usual way on the usual form, as suf- fering from gonorrhoea. Chairman. 9767. When ?— Between the 29th of January and the 5th of February. 9768. After the expiration of the five days ? — Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 9769. Then you say that on the 5th of February you saw her for the third time; what occurred upon that occasion ? — She was brought in in tlie usual way into the examining room. I said " Are you willing to be examined ? " and she said " Quite willing, if you do not use any instru- ment ; " I said " I do not want to use an instru- ment ; I can examine you without," and she got on to the table which is used for that purpose. 9770. Of her own accord ? — Quite of her own accord. 9771. There was no force or constraint used ? — No difficulty at all ; she got on as all the others do. 9772. Did the nurse assist ? — The nurse was, of course, present, and helped her up, and ad- justed her clothes, as she always does. We do not go near until she is in the position to be examined. 9773. But I understand you to say that no force or constraint was used by you or anyone else on that occasion ? — None whatever. 0.75. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued. 9774. Did you examine her? — I examined her externally ; and then I merely introduced the finger into the vagina to find whether the hymen was secure ; I found that there was no hymen ; that was gone ; but I found that she had a dis- charge, and I settled in my own opiuiou, along with Mr, Weld, that it was not a gonorrhoeal discharge. 9775. In fad, she was not suffering from any complaint under the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — No, she was suffering from what we call vaginitis, that is to say, a little inflammation of the vagina. 9776. Is it true that Mr. Weld held her down upon that occasion ? — Totally false. 9777. Is it true that she struggled or fell off the table ? — Totally false, every word of it, and I speak with certainty. 9778. Is it true that Mr. Weld helped her up to the table ? — Nothing of the kind. 9779. You have read her statutory declara- tion, have you not ? — I have. 978U. As regards that statutory declaration, I will read what she said about you, and I will ask you whether it is true. On page 3 of Ap- pendix, No. 5, in paragraph 4, she says : " I took the paper to Dr. Jardine, one of the surgeons who examine the women, and he told me ' to get up,' meaning that I was to get upon the ' donkey,' upon which the examination is made ; I refused to do so. Dr. Jardine repeatedly urged me to submit to the examination, but I still refused. He said, he should have to keep me in the hos- pital if I did not do so. I said, ' Then you can do so, sir.' " Did you ever say that to her on the 29th of January ?— I urged her to be examined. 9781. She then goes on to say: "He then called one of the police, and told him not to let me go out." Did you do that?— No, I did not do that; I merely went out to consult with Inspector Capon. 9782. And you detained her then under form L. ?— Then I came to the conclusion, after con- sulting with the inspector, that the best and most charitable thing to do was to take her in on the L. form. 9783. Now I will call your attention to para- graph 9 of the statutory declaration ; I am now speaking of the 5th of February, the third time that you saw her. This is what she says : " On the following- day (Friday), I was again taken before the surgeons, Dr. Jardine and Dr. Weld, both being present ; they both persuaded me to sub- mit to the examination, and said it was the only way to clear my character and get my liberty." Is that true? — No, it was not put in that way at all; what was said was, " That is the only way to show whether you are diseased or not." 9784. Then she goes on to say : " In conse- quence of the persuasions, and fearing that I should still be kept a prisoner, I said I would be examined if they did not use the instrument." I suppose she consented to be examined if you did not use the instrument? — Yes, exactly. 9785. Then she says, " I had heard about the instrument from the other girls in the hospital, and had seen it when I was sent down stairs to clean the place. Dr. Jardine promised he would not use it, and I then got upon the ' donkey,' with my feet in the stirrups, and Dr. Weld held 3 D 3 me 398 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jardine. [ Continued. ]Mr. Oshornc Morpon — continued, ine tlown while Dr. .Tanlinc examined mc." Is that true ? — It is not true ; tiierc was no holding down at all; she was perfectly willing. 'JT8G. Was Mr. AVeld near ':'— ]\Ir. "Weld and the nurse and myself were all that were pre- sent. 9787. Did INIr. "Weld lay hands upon her?— I do not think that he did in any way ; he might have laid his hand ujion her arm, tor anything I know; but there was no necessity for holding her. I do not think he did so ; but he never held her, it was not required. 9788. Then she says, " lie hurt mc with his finger, and I struggled and fell oil' the ' donkey ' on to the floor and hurt my arm." Is that the case ? — That is entirely false. 9789. Then she says, " Mr. "Weld picked me uj) and said I had a nice fat arm? " — He never said such a thing. He never, so fi^r as I am aware, touched her arm, except when she got up. She never fell. That is all a pure invention. 9790. Tiien she says, "Dr. Jardine said 'That will do; we'll send for you presently.' " Is that true ? — That is quite right. I told her to go out, and we would consult, because I was going to consult with Mr. "Weld then as to whether she was diseased or not, and I said to him that I did not think she was diseased, and he agreed with me that it was not gonorrhoea. I could let her hear us say that together. 9791. Then she says, "I went up into the ward, but was sent for again directly, and Dr. Jardine then said, ' Wc find you are not guilty, and you'll be discharged ; why did you not be examined before ? ' " Is that correct ? — No ; I said, " You are not diseased (but not * not guilty'), and therefore you will go"; but I did not say " go to-morrow " even, because I should have thought she would go directly. 9792. Did you say that she was a virgin ? — Never. 9793. As a matter of fact, was she a virgin when you inspected her? — She might possibly be a virgin ; 1 did not say she was not ; I could not affirm that she was not a virgin. 9794. Did you at that time, or at any other time, express the opinion that this girl was a virgin ? — I never said she was a virgin. 9795. INIr. 'Wheeler, in his examination on page 94, puts these words into your mouth. He is asked at Question 1391 : " Can you tell us what either Dr. "Weld or Dr. Jardine said"? and his answer was, " Yes, I can recollect a few words of each. Dr. \Veld said ' A man may make a mistake once in his life.'" Did you hear him say that ? — No ; that was in his own house up in the town. 9796. Mr. Wheeler then says, " Dr. Jardine said, ' The police ought to be more careful.'" Did you say that? — 1 said, "the police ought to be very careful," but I never said that they had not been careful. 9797. Did you ever say that they ought to be more careful ? — No, I am sure I did not say that, because I did not think so. I know from my own recollection I never thought that they had not been careful. 9798. "\A'hat you said was that the police ought to be very careful ? — Yes. 9799. "Will you allow me to refer you to a l\Ir. Oshnrne il/oz-yan— continued, letter which you wrote to the Secretary of State for "W.ar, dated the 14th of June lS7i) ; do you adhere to the statements made in that letter? - Yes; I have read this letter, and I adhere to the statements which I made in that letter. 9800. And that letter represents the facts which occurred with regard to this girl, (Caroline Wybrow ? — Yes. 9601. First of all I will ask you to look at these two ])hotographs of the Lock Hospital at Chatham (/KiJidiitf/ liro photoi/rfi/ihs to the Wit- ness)'^ — I have two additional ))lans which will make the thing more plain (producing tivo other p/iofo_r/rapks). There is one, taken only yester- day by the engineers, which is made more distinct. 9802. From these plans it appears that the building is an isolated building; is that so? — It is quite isolated up upon a height. 9803. AVould you kindly listen to what I am going to read to you from the evidence of Air. Wheeler. At Question 11G7 he was asked this : " Have you frequently heard complaints of Indecent behaviour on the ])art of the women going to and returning from examination? {A.) I have. (Q.) Has that been a matter of frequent occurrence ? (A.) Yes; I could name at once a dozen persons who have complained to me of the behaviour of the prostitutes on their way to or from the examination. (Q.) To what locality have those complaints prlncijially had reference? (A.) To the thoroughfare leading to the Lock Hospital. (Q.) AVould they refer particularly to the corner of what is known as Military-row and High-street? (_A.) Yes. (Q.) Have vou had specific complaints from shopkeepers in the neighbourhood; for instance, have you had any complaints from shopkeepers in lligh-stieet, of indecent scenes in the neigh- bourhood of their shops ? (A.) Yes." You have heard this statement ? — Yes. 9804. Have you yourself seen or heard of any such scenes as are there described, or have vou received complaints of such indecent beha- viour as i\Ir. Wheeler describes ? — I certainly have not. I have gone up there almost daily for 10 years, and two days in the week I meet them going up, I never saw any Indecency or anything at all like what Mr. Wheeler has described. 9805. And, in particular, at the corner of Military-row or Higli-strcet have you seen such indecency? — The distance of the corner from the High-street is 737 yards. 9806. Have you measured it? — It has been measured last week. 9807. That would be nearly half a mile, would it not ? — Yes ; it is a long way off. 9808. Have you ever heard other people com- plain of scenes such as Mr. Wheeler described? — I never heard any complaints, 9S09. If such scenes as Mr. Wheeler described were of common occurrence, would you not be likely to have heard of them ? — I could not have avoided seeing them myself; and, moreover, I have inquired in the last week at about 10 or 12 difl'erent houses In the neighbourhood, and they all with one accord, except one, said that they have never seen anything to complain of. But one, I must say, at a large shop at the corner, said SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 399 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jardine. [ Continued. ]Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. said this : " Yes ; there is something. On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, ive see these women passing our doors, and our windows from 11 to 12. On other days we see them, but not until the evening." That was the only one that made any complaint. 9810. Let me refer you to Question 1173, where the right honourable gentleman, the Member for Halifax, asked Mr. Wheeler this : " Do you mean that the women were waiting on their way to or from the examination ? " and Mr. Wheeler's answer is, " On their way to or firom." Then the next question is, " Close to the examination room ? " and the answer is, " Near to it ; on the way." He is speaking of the corner of High-street there, I think? — Yes. 9811. 1 think you told us that the corner of High- street was 737 yards from the hospital? — Yes. 9812. If they were at the corner of the High- street, they could not be near the examination room? — They would be far from the examination room. 9813. The road which passes below the hill is the main road to Maidstone, is it not ? — It is. 9814. Is that one of the great thoroughfares of Cliatham? — -No, it is the thoroughfare to Maidstone. 9815. The Lock Hospital, I think, is some dis- tance from the road itself? — Yes; it is up in a field some 100 or 200 yards from the road, on a height. 9816. Can you say exactly how many yards it is ? — It has not been measured, but the path up to it, I should say, was from 100 to 150 yards. 9817. And it is surrounded by a high wall? — It is ; nothing can be seen from the road. 9818. Do you yourself live near High-street? — My residence is near High-street. 9819. At Question 1182 Mr. Wheeler is asked, " Can you see the locality of the examination room from that spot ;" that is to say, from a spot at the top of Railway-street, where several roads diverge; can you see it from that spot? — No; you can see the building up on the hill, that is all you can see. 9820. Mr. Wheeler is referring to a place at the top of Hailway-street, where several roads diverge. I presume you know the spot in question ? — Yes, very well. 9821. He is asked, " Can you see the locality of the examination room from that spot " ? — You cannot see it at all. 9822. "That spot " is this place at the top of Eailway-street, where several roads diverge ? — les. 9823. Mr. Wheeler's answer was, " Yes, I have here a little drawing of the neighbour- hood." And then he goes on to say, " The hospital stands within the green line ; that is a field ; the green line shows the boundaries of the field. We noted carefully 49 women and girls pass up in about an hour-and-a-half, and 46 women and girls passed down." First of all, is it possible to see the locality of the examination room from that spot that Mr. Wheeler referred to ? — It is not possible. You can see a building upon the height, but as for the examination room, there is a high wall, and that is all you can see. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 9824. But in no other sense can it be said that you can see the locality of the examination room? — l\o, you cannot see the locality of the examination room ; it is impossible to tell from there where the examination room would be. 9825. I will go on reading the other part of the answer : " Dirty rough-looking men were lying on the grass in two separate places ; others were sitting on the walls on either side of the road ; other men were in the road exchanging recog- nitions with the women when going, but more when returning. There was much loud talking, laughing, and occasional screaming among them- selves, and boys looked on. A number of the women, say a dozen or twenty, visited one or other of the drinking houses on the way up or down. One returning appeared to have been crying as she passed ; another too tipsy to walk straight ; two or more appeared under 16." You say that you visit the Lock Hospital daily, and that you live near the locality ; have you ever seen any scenes at all rep.embhng those described by Mr. ^V heeler? — I have never seen such a scene; and all the persons that I have asked who live in the neighbourhood say that they never saw such a scene. 9826. If such scenes had ever occurred, is it likely that you would have heard of them ? — I could not have avoided hearing of it and see- ing it.^ 9827. I observe that one of the statements of Mr. Wheeler is, that one of the women was too tipsy to walk straight ; do women ever present themselves for examination in a state of drunken- ness ? — Sometimes they do. According to the Act, if they come in a drunken state we could send them back to the police office ; but they do not generally come in that state. Some come a little excited, and if we think they are not fit they are not taken in at all, but sent back. 9828. Would you allow a drunken woman to go away from your examination room without sending her to the police station ? — Not if she was thoroughly drunk; but they sometimes come in a partial state of excitement, and we do not think it necessary to send them to the station. 9829. I see that at No. 1251, the following question is asked, " But on the whole, are you prepared to say from inquiries which you have made that venereal disease still largely prevails among the civil population in Chatham ? " and the answer to that is, " That agrees with the in- formation that I have received." You have had a large professional experience at Chatham, have you not ? — I have been 30 years in Chatham. 9830. And, I presume, you know other doctors residing there ? — ^I know them all. I am the senior in Chatham now. 9831. Can you give us any information bearing ufion that question, and the answer to it, and if so, will you do so ? — Yes, I have taken very great pains to ascertain that, and I have gone to four different surgeons just lately. 9832. Will you name them, if you please ?— Mr. Fayle, who retired five years ago, and who has come back to live in Chatham again, as a retired man, had practised there 2? years, and he told me that since the Contagious Diseases Acts passed he almost entirely lost a very lai-ge 3 D 4 practice 400 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE TUE 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jaudine. \_Coiitinued. Mr^ Osborne Morgan — continued, practice that he formerly had in the treatment of venereal di.^eases. There is another s^entleman, ]Mr. 11 utchins, a surgeon to the union: he has been there about 27 years, and he told me the same ; he said he had no practice now in that way at all. Mr. Steddy, an old man too, told me the same. 9833. Is he a man of experience in Chatham? — He is. There are no other men in Chatham now except the young men who liave commenced since the Acts, with the exception of those I have mentioned. 9834. Have you any evidence from druggists? — There are three druggists of old standing who have been in practice a great deal in that way amongst the lower orders; one of them said that he had lost so much money by it ; but he is very warm in sujiport of the Acts. He came up and saw Sir ,Iohn Pakington at the hospital once when I was there, and he said he had lost 100 /. a year by it. Mr. Stansfeld. 9835. Did the druggist say so to you ? — He said it to Sir John Pakington in my presence ; that was a Mr. Barnaby, of Kochester. Then there was Mr. Foster, of Rochester, who was also an old druggest there ; and only the other day when I spoke to him he told me the same, that it had made a wonderful difference to his business in the way of certain medicines. Mr. Oslorne Morgan. 9836. Did he say how much he had lost? — He did not mention the sum. Then the thii-d was a Mr. Stevens. 9837. Is he in Chatham or in Kochester? — In Chatham. He also does a great deal of what I may call illegal practice amongst people ; and he eaid that now he did not do more in a month in supplying medicines for venereal diseases than he used to do in a night before the Acts passed. 9838. You have sjioken of Rochester and Chatham ; does your experience extend at all to Sheerness? — I generally go there in consulta- tion with all the doctors ; I am often there, and they have told me that they had no practice of that kind now at all. 9839. Do they attribute that to the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — Entirely to the Contagious Diseases Acts. 9840. After what you have stated, may I ask you whether the opinion of medical men in Chat- ham and Rochester is in favour, or opposed to, the continuance of these Acts ? — They are all in favour of them that I know of, except one ; there were two, but one died some time ago. I only know of one opponent of the Acts now, a very respectable man, whom I am in the constant habit of meeting ; he has a sentimental idea against the Acts. 9841. But with that exception, how many opponents of the Acts are there amongst the medical men in Rochester and Chatham ? — I think there are about 26 or 27 medical men in the towns of Rochester, Strood, and Chatham. 9842. Out of those 26 or 27 medical men in the three towns, there is only one who is not in favour of the Acts ? — Only one that I know of; Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, but I see in Mr. AVheuler's evidence he says two have signed a petition ; I do not know who the other may be. 9843. AYhat do you say with regard to Sheer- ness ? — In Sheerness it is most complete ; it is an isolated place. 9844. Do you mean by saying that it is com- plete, that the opinion of the medical men there is unanimous in favour of the Acts? — Entirely in favour of the Acts. Mr. Ilopwood. 9845. You find medical men generally in favour of these Acts, do you not? — Generally. 9846. And they are generally in favour of any Act that gives them ])ower to treat the popu- lation ; is not that so ; do they not think medicine the first thing of all? — I do not understand you; I would like to know what you mean before I give you an answer. 9847. I will try to make you understand me with pleasure. You say that medical men are in favour of tliese Acts? — So far as I have met them they generally are; 9848. And they are in favour of any compul- sory power which enables them to treat the popu- lation for diseases ? — I do not know that ; that may be a mutter of oj)inion. 9849. Are they in favour of the notification of diseases ? — Yes, decidedly. 9850. And they are in favour, I suppose, of the arbitrary powers under the Public Health Acts ? — Which powers do you mean ? 9851. Treatment of people in their houses for disease ; removing them and isolating them ? — Yes, decidedly. 9852. They are in favour of any compulsory power that has been proposed to treat the popu- lation ; is not that so ? — According to your way of putting it : but I do not quite see it. 9853. But you admit that so far as regards the instances that I have named? — Yes. Mr. Bulwer. 9854. Do I rightly understand you to admit that they are in favour of any comjiulsory powers? — I do not admit that. Mr. Ilopicood. 9855. As to chis enormous amount of disease which you say existed before the Acts came into oper.ation, are you speaking of Chatham '. — t am not speaking of the enormous amount of disease, but of the reduction of disease. 9856. I understand that two or three or four more medical men almost lost their iiractice through the improvement brought about by the Acts ? — Not to that extent. 9857. They all lost largely ?— They all say that they suffered by it to a certain extent. 9858. But it is very material to us to know whether it jvas to a large extent ? — It could not be to a very large extent in a man's practice, but suf- ficiently large to show a reduction of the disease. 9859. Do you also know that it is asserted by many of the authorities that this disease has diminished in England everywhere ? — Yes, I believe that is so to a certain extent. 9860. Can SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 401 9 Jinie 1882.] Mr. Jakdine. \Contmued. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 9860. Can you make a deduction between that certain extent and this large extent which you are speaking of? — No, I cannot. 9861. You cannot tell what the relative pro- portion of the natural decrease and the artificial decrease is ? — No ; it is impossible for any man to tell you that. 9862. You have told us that a certain druggist formerly did more in a night than he does now in a mouth ? — He said that he used to do more in a night than he does now in a month. 9863. Amongstwhatclass was this? — Amongst the lower classes, of course. 9864. Do you mean amongst prostitutes? — No, I mean men principally ; not women. 9865. How often does the same woman come back to you diseased in Chatham? — From look- ing over the books I find that there are one or two that have been in hospital 30 times. 9866. For disease, since you have been there ? —Yes. 9867. And I suppose those women would have a capacity for diseasing people between the whiles that you examined them ? — To a certain extent. 9868. We will see to what extent. Supposing a woman to get diseased, the disease may, I pre- sume, at the time of her examination, not be in a sufficiently advanced stage to manifest itself to you ; is not that so ? — Do you mean that when she is examined she may be diseased and I do not detect it ? 9869. Yes? — No; I do not believe it. I be- lieve that if you had had experience, as I have had for 10 years, you cannot be very much de- ceived. 9870. I am not putting my experience against yours ; but is it not possible for a woman to be infected, and for the positive evidence of the infection not to show itself at her first examina- tion before you after the infection? — I believe that may be possible in certain instances. 9871. In such a case might the disease make its appearance the next day or the next day but one ? — It might. 9872. They come to you fortnightly, do they not ? — They come to us fortnightly ; but I beg to say that when the police hear of a woman having infected any man in the hospital, they do not wait for a fortnight, but she is brought up directly. 9873. That depends upon the police hearing about it ; but if the police do not hear of it, having hapj)ened, say, on the second day after the examination, the woman has just 12 days to infect people before she comes to you? — Such a thing may occur, but it is an unusual thing. 9874. How do you know that it is an unusual thing ? — Because I know from experience that it is not usual. 9875. But how can you tell by experience ? — I do not know what you mean to drive at, but a person may leave the hospital to-day and may catch the disease to-morrow. 9876. And then she will have 12 or 13 days in which she can disease her clients? — Yes, you are right there. 9877. I suppose these four medical gentlemen whom you speak of are to be found in Chatham ? — They are all to be found. 0.75. Mr. Hopwood — continued. 9878. And their addresses are known? — Yes, their addresses are known. 9879. What was the " sentimental idea " of the gentleman that you spoke of who was against the Acts ? — He is a gentleman who constantly calls me in in consultation, but we never talk upon the subject. 9880. Then how do you know that it is a senti- mental idea ? — I believe that it was a sentimental idea ; that was my own idea. 9881. Although he had not told yon ?— No, as I say, that was my own idea, because I know he is a very honourable, good man. 9882. You have no sentimental idea in the same direction? — No. 9883. You cannot understand it, perhaps ? — No, perhaps not. I have a great respect for the man, though he is of a contrary opinion to myself. 9884. I understood you to say that there were two medical men against the Acts at one time, but that one has died since ; what was t/ie name of the gentleman who has died since? — Mr. Bell. 9885. Can you tell me what the force of military now at Chatham is? — I think I have the number. 9886. It is some hundreds, I suppose ? — The number of troops in garrison at jjresent is 3,417 and 1,707 marines and sailors. 9887. There are upwards of 5,000 men then. Are you aware that there was an order with regard to the soldiers in 1873, stopping their pay or inflicting some penalty upon them if they were diseased ? — Yes, I remember hearing of that. 9888. Did this chemist that you speak of tell you that he or any of his friends in the same trade supplied the soldiers with remedies ? — Not one of those. Another one told me that he had sometimes a soldier, but he does not speak of it as general thing. 9889. 1 sujjpose he would not be likely to tell you that he had a large dealing with them, but he told you that he had a soldier or t.wo occa- sionally ? — He would not. It was not the man that I spoke of before, but another one. 9890. Somebody that you did not mention to us ? — -Yes. 9891. And that one's practice lies occasionally amongst soldiers ? — He said that he had some- times soldiei's. 9892. Did you make any inquiries with a view to find out whether that was not more extensive than you speak of? — I did not. 9893. Possibly you might find that it was a compensation for the loss of trade that that other chemist spoke of as compared with the old days ? — I do not think so. Mr. Stansfeld. 9894. You are not prepared, as I understand, to say that Caroline Wybrow was not a virgin at the time you examined her? — She might be a virgin in spite of all that I saw. 9895. You deny the accuracy of her statement that on February the 5th Mr. Weld held '' her down"; you said that he might have put his hand upon her, but that there was no need to hold her ? — None whatever. 9896. Why was there no need to hold her ? 3 E — Because 402 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jabdine. L Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. — Because she p;ot down, as they usually do. The nurse told her how to do it, and she put her feet in the place like any other woman. 9897. She was seated in a kind of chiiir, was she not ? — It is a kind of raised table ; you go up steps to it. 9898. Hut when she is seated immediately before the examination, is the chair combined so as to hold her in the position that you require ? — Not at all. 9899. I understand the meaning of your evi- dence to be that she could have stirred if she chose,, and that she did not choose ? — Yes, she could have jumped off all in a moment if she had liked. 9900. Is it a table or a chair? — It is a kind of thing with a back to it raised, and with some- thing like leg^. 9901. Is not that very like a chair? — It is something like a chair raised. There are no arms. 9902. And it is depressed, is it not, so as to ■ raise the lower part of 'the person? — Yes, there is a back to it, but there is no arms, so that they can roll off. 9903. Is there nothing to confine the patient when the chair is depressed ? — Not the slightest. 9904. She said in her statement that you hurt her ; you say that is untrue ; but how do you ki)OW that you did not hurt her ? — I know from o-reat experience that it could not hurt her, because I merely introduced a jioint of the fore- finuor just to find if the hymen was gone, or whether it was there ; and I went no distance further than that ; and I found that there was no hymen ; and she made no opposition except the usual thing ; she might say, " Oh I" or some- thing like that, but she did not scream. 9905. But if she stated, as she has stated, that you hurt her, you would not wisli to say that statement is false ? — I merely say that I do not believe she was hurt. 9906. At any rate you did not intend to hurt her? — Certainly not. 9907. With regard to your sending her into the hospital under Form L., what I understood you to say was this, that she refused to be ex- amined, and that appeared to you to afford prima facie evidence tiiat she was diseased, and that therefore you proposed to order h.er into the hospital under form L. ; did I correctly understand you to say so? — Quite so. 9908. But I thought you also stated on the occasion to which I refer, on the 29th, that she distinctly refused, under any circumstances, to be examined ? — Yes. 9909. After that statement ot hers, how could you continue to draw the inference that she re- fused to be examined, because she was probably in a state of disease ? — You see it is a peculiar case ; it was the first and only case that I had of a refusal to be examined. I considered that I had not a long time to act, and I thought to myself, " What shall I do?" I thought of that Section No. 3 ; I considered that it was left to the discretion of the doctor to say whether he thouo'ht there was sufficient evidence that she mioht be diseased ; and from my experience before, whenever we have had unwillingness to be examined, I have always found that they have Mr. Stamfeld — continued, been diseased, so that I came to the conclusion that most likely she was diseased and ilid not wish to be brought into the hospital, and there- fore I thought it would be a charitable tiling to take her into the hospital instead of sending her to the magistrates, who might have committed her to prison. 9910. At the same time the ultimate result of your examination was to find that she was not diseased? — She was not diseased. 9911. You have been asked about disorderly conduct in the roads leading to the Lock Hos- pital and the examination room, and you said that you have not witnessed such scenes yourself; but at the time when the women arc going to and from the examinatinn room where are you your- self? — I examine one day, and on two days of the week I am leaving the hospital just at the time that they are all coming up, and I meet them all regularly, and I have done that for 10 years, and I never saw anything indecent not once. 9912. But they would be likely to be careful when you came in sight, would they not? —They might ; but one of these men went about it j'csterday. Mr. Turner told inethat he had gone on purpose frequently, and he never saw anything improper. 9913. I do not wish to understand, and I do not suppose that I ought to understand you as deny- ing the truthfulness of the evidence of Mr. Wheeler? — I do not believe Mr. Wheeler has any idea of telling an untruth. Mr. Wheeler is an enthusiast in the cause, and things appear to him in a difterent light from what they would to a person who took a common sense and rational view of the matter. I met with a gentleman this morning, a magistrate of Rochester, who said the same thing to me. 9914. Mr, Wheeler has deposed before this Committee to certain disorderly and indecent conduct on the part of women going to and fro ; yoti have spoken of him as an enthusiast upon this subject, but do you think that would make him see the same act Avith different eyes to yours? — I quite believe it would. I could see a few women going up the hill quietly and speaking to each other, and perhaps a soldier might pass and say, " How do you do '! " and IMr. Wheeler puts all that down as something very inunoral and shocking. 9915. Have you read Mr. Wheeler's evidence? — I have. 9916. Are you aware that his statements are very specific ujton that point, that there were acts on the part of these women which were evidently indecent ? — Do you mean about the carter ? 9917. Yes? — That might have been an acci- dental thing ; I never saw such a thing. I have no doubt he saw something, or he would not have said so. 9918. I understand that you have seen nothing of this kind; but if you dispute the accuracy of Mr. Wheeler's statements it may be necessary to call, as a witness, a friend who accompanied him upon one of those occasions ; do I rightly under- stand you as disputing the accuracy of his obser- vations? — I do not know who it might be that was with him. 9919. But do I rightly understand you as disputing SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 403 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jabdine. [ Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, disputing the accuracy uf Wheeler's own ob- servation, or merely as saying that you have seen nothing of the kind ? — 1 have seen no- thing of the kind, and I have consulted many per- sons who have seen nothing of the kind, just the same as myself. 9920. At Question 1190 Mr. Wheeler was asked this : " Did you make a second visit to the same spot ? " and his answer was, " Yes. My Bext note is to show that my friend made a visit ; that I will not trouble you with. On the 3rd of August 1881, I meet again with the same friend. We were too late to see the earliest go up ; but we counted 17 go up and 23 down. The more respectable ones were quiet in their beha- viour. Two went up in a cab. The shabby ones were very different, loudly laughing and talking among themselves, and with the men passing by." With regard to that statement you would, I understand, make the remark that Mr. Wheeler migh suspect impropriety sooner than you would ? — Exactly. 9921. But then he goes on to say, " Three others were passing down, and one of them accosted a waggoner with a waggon and four horses. She walked close by the waggoner's side. Then his arm was round her waist. The loud laughter and the language of her two com- panions who had walked on attracted the atten- tion of persons in the road. After walking un- steadily for some distance we saw them both roll on the grass bank close together; indeed, the man appeared to fall on the woman." Do you question the accuracy of that statement? — •! can only say that I never saw such a thing ; I will not dispute what Mr. Wheeler saw. I have made great inquiries, and I never knew of any one who ever saw any improprieties. 9922. You have spoken of the hospital as an isolated building ; it stands, does it not, in the middle of a field?— Up at the top of a field. 9923. Therefore^ it stands in that part of the field from which it would be visible to the greatest distance ? — Yes. 9924. And it is about 100 yards from the Maidstone-road ? — I should think that the field is more than 100 yards across. 9925. Are you prepared to say that at the time when the women are going to and fro, men are not to be found lying about on the grass in- side of the Maidstone-road ? — I have never seen a man inside. The soldiers are forbidden to go inside by order ; I never saw a soldier in the field. 9926. I did not say a soldier. In answer to Question 1182, Mr. Wheeler said, "We" (that is to say, his friend and himself) "noted care- fully 49 women and girls pass up in about an hour and a half, and 46 women and girls passed down. Dirty rough-looking men were lying on the grass in two separate places ; others were sitting on the walls on either side of the road : other men were in the road exchanging recogni- tions with the women when going, but more returning. There was much loud talking, laugh- ing, and occasional screaming among themselves." You are not prepared, probably, to deny the accuracy of that statement ? — I am only prepared to say that I never saw such an accumulation of people there in my life ; there is generally not a Mr. Stansfeld — continued, soul to be seen. They must have come, I think, to meet Mr. Wheeler. 9927. What do I understand you to mean by your last remark, that these dirty-looking men came to meet Air. Wheeler? — I said it merely because I never saw them, and it is very peculiar that they should be there on the day Mr. Wheeler was there. Perhaps I was not there on that day, and therefore I could not say that they were not there. 9928. Then it is hardly a serious answer? — Hardly. 9929. On two days in the week you are at the Lock Hospital at the time when these women go up and down, and it may have been one of those days ; is Friday one of your days ? — Friday is the day that I am fixed up there. 9930. I understand that the occasion of the first visit of Mr. Wheeler was on a Friday ? — Then I was not there to see it. 9931. You have spoken of the opinions of various medical men and chemists as to the re- duction of their practice in venereal diseases consequent upon the passing of the Acts ; do I understand you to be of opinion that there has been a greater decrease of venereal disease of late years, comparatively speaking, amongst the civil than amongst the military population at Chatham ? — Amongst the civil and amongst the military population too. 9932. If the Acts have so affected the condi- tion of the women as to reduce the danger of contact with them, that would apply, of course^ quite as much to the military as to the civil population, because the women are used by the soldiers in the garrison at Chatham ? — Yes. 9933. Are you familiar with the army medical statistics as to the per-centage of disease amongst the soldiers in the garrison at Chatham during a period of years ? — I cannot say that I am familiar with the statistics. 9934. You are not prepared then to say that the statistics of disease amongst civilians would be largely more in favour of your view than the statistics of disease amongst the soldiers '! — The statistics amongst the civilians I should say do show a most extraordinary reduction of disease. There is another thing, a great deal of the disease in the Army is brought from out of the district ; but in the case of the civil population generally, their disease is contracted in the district ; and, therefore, that shows that there has been a reduction of disease amongst the women. 9935. But your impression as to the reduction of disease is founded upon the statements that you have told us of to-day ? — Yes, perfectly so. 9936. You are not in general practice your- self, are you ? — Yes, I am. 9937. But you are not in practice of that nature ? — Yes. 9938. Has your practice diminished ? — ^Yes. When I Was there first as an assistant with a Dr. Martin, who is dead, the rooms every night were full. 9939. But I am asking about your own prac- tice ? — -In my own practice too the number is very much reduced. 9940. How much of your time is occupied in attention to the Lock Hospital and to your offi- cial duties ? — I go there every day. 3 E 2 9941. Under 404 JIINCTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BBFOKE THE 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jaudine. \_Continiicd. Mr. Stamfehl — continued. 9941. Under the circumstances you could not expect to keep up the same amount of practice? It takes a certain amount ol' my time. 9942. You rcierrcd to the evidence of certain doctors and clicmists, and you referred amongst them to a Mr. Stei)hcn?. did you not ? — Yes. 994;5. Did you know Mr. Stephens' views upon the subject of these Acts?— I have never talked to him as to liis views upon tlic Acts. I do not know tiicin. 9944. Do you know his views ? — Yes, I know them. 994.5. Is he in favour of tlie Acts, or against them ? — To tell the truth, I never had any con- versation with him upon the subject. 994(). But I thought you said that you knew his views? — No; I thought you asked whether I knew him. I only went to him to ask about this question, and 1 took 7\fr. Sloggctt once to hear his view upon it, and he told him what I have told you. 9947. Did you understand him as entertaining a favourable opinion of the Acts? — I should think he did ; but I do not remember his ex- pressing any opinion about the matter. 9948" Siiould you be surprised to hear that he has recently signed a petition in favour of the repeal of the Acts ? — Yes, I should ; but as I have already stated I never had any conversa- tion with him upon the Acts. I do not know what his views are ; I never remember haviiii^ any conversation with him upon the subject, ex- cept with regard to the effect that it had upon his practice. 9949. I understand from you, so far at any rate as Mr. Stephens is concerned, that you, in conversation with him, understood him to give his evidence of the hygienic success of the Acts from the reduction of his own practice ?— Decidedly. 9950. Do you know Dr. Blatherwick, who was formerly an army surgeon at Netley ?— Yes, I know a little of him. 9951. He is now practising at Rochester, is he not? — He is. 9952. Is he in favour of the repeal of the Acts? — I do not know how itisinhis case. I said that there was another who appeared to have signed a petition; it was very likely Dr. Bla- therwick. Dr. Farqiihurson. 9953. I think the honourable and learned Member asked you if it was not the case that medical men would be in favour of the Conta- tagious Diseases Acta as they are in favour of other Acts for the prevention of disease, because they wished to increase their power of treating the pojjulation ; I do not know whether he meant Irom mercenary or pecuniary motives ? — I am not quite up to that question. 9954. Is it not the case that a great deal of medical practice depends upon the prevention of disease, by which they lose not only a great deal of professional influence, but of actual money ? — Decidedly. 9955. Is it not the case that, with regard to the verv instance given by the honourable Gen- tleman of the Public Health Act as to isolation, &c., bv those Acts, doctors lose an enormous deal of professional work and also money ? — They do. Dr. Farquharson — continued. 995G. May we not say that it is very public spirited and patriotic of them to be in favour of Acts like the Contagious Diseases Acts, wliicli you have jirovcd have deprived the medical men of your district of a great deal of their practice? — Yes, 1 think that is a most ex- traordinary instance of the disinterestedness of the profession, because they are, as a body, in favour of these ^Vcts, because they believe they do good in diminishing and preventing disease, not only to present hut to future generations. It is a loss to themselves, and yet almost to a man they approve of the Acts. 9957. I think the honourable and learned Member also asked you if it was not the case that there had been a steady decrease of venereal diseases in the counti-y ; is it not the case that these diseases go by waves, that one year you get an increase, and another year you get a diminution? — Quite so ; the returns of the hos- pital show that. You will liave in one year so much more disease than you have in another. 9958. There was a jioint about the possibility of a woman who had been examined at a parti- cular time actually having disease on her ; I presume that the lionourablc Gentleman meant that she was in a condition of what we call the period of incubation ? — Yes. 9959. At that j^eriod she would not be capable of communicating disease to others, wouid she ? — Not until it showed itself. 99GO. I suppose that when a patient comes before you for examination you can tell pretty well how long she has had the di.vcase ? — Yes, you can judge very nearly. 99G1. Therefore you would presume that such a case as was put to you by the honourable Member would be a rare case?— Yes, it may occur, but it is not a common thing. 99C2. You were asked about the examination chair ; I suppose it would be more correct to call it a table than a chair ? — It is just a table. 9963. Does it differ in any way from the chair or table in use at ordinary hospitals? — No, it is the same kind of chair. It is contrived so that they may be put in such a position that you may have no difhculty in seeing the state of aftiiirs. If they went into an ordinary bed the disease might escape you, but this^is arranged in such a way that it cannot escape j"OU. If a man were to miss seeing a sore on a woman when she was on that chair it would be from want of sight ; you cannot avoid it. It is necessary to have that sort of thing, or you would not be able to carry on that practice at all. Mr. Bulwer. 9964. Is that what they call the " donkey "? — Yes, that is the girls' name for it. Dr. Farquharson. 9965. Is there anything in the construction of this chair or table different from that of the chair or table wliich is used in hospitals for the examination of innocent and virtuous girls ?— No ; a young man saw it the other day, and he told me that it was just the same as they had iu the hospital where he was for the same purpose. 9966. Is there any difference in the mode of examination conducted by you and that con- ducted SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 405 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jakdine. [^Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued, ducted by medical men in other hospitals ? — Not at all. It is most delicatelj done. We do not go near until the nurse has put the woman in position; she adjusts her clothes, and you do not interfere with her in any way ; the nurse does everything of that kind, so that no lady under examination could be more carefully and deli- cately examined. 9967. And on this particular occasion you made no difference in the examination, except that you did not use an instrument ? — I did not use an instrument. Sometimes they come with what is called vaginitis, i.e., inflammation of the vao-ina, and they cannot bear an instrument. 9968. We are told in the leaflet of which we have heard so much that " the scene which fol- lowed could not be printed"; I presume that the details of a medical examination of that sort could hardly be printed for circulation broadcast, as this leaflet has been, amongst the population of the country ? — I do not know what he means by that, because there was nothing but what might have been printed. 9969. Had Mr. Wheeler any means of know- ing how the examination was carried on on this particular occasion ? — None but what he got from the giil. 9970. He was not present himself? — No. 9971. Did the girl complain to you at the time, or at any other time, of being hurt by her examination ? — No, she made no complaint. 9972. And she did not struggle in any waj' ? — No, not a bit. 9973. She might have shrunk a little ? — She might have said " Oh," but there was nothing out of the way, and the whole thing is imagina- tion ; the tumbling ofi' the chair, and the scream- ing, and the seizing of the arm, and the admira- tion of the fat arm, was all imagination. 9974. Did Mr. Weld, who assisted you in the examination, in any way hold her back? — No, she was lying upon the table with her back raised. Mr. Weld may have touched her arm, but I do not know that he did; but there was no occasion to hold her, and no necessity for it. 9975. Do you concur in the professional me- dical opinion expressed by Mr. Wheeler in answer to Question 1809 : " Another ground is, that I learnt from professional men that a digital examination would give pain in the case of a virgin"? — I believe that without there is some inflammation at the time, a plain little examina- tion, such as I made, in the case of a virgin womb, would not give any pain. 9976. Then you do not concur in the profes- sional medical opinion given by Mr. Wheeler ? — No ; that was given by Dr. John Brown to Mr. Wheeler. 9977. I think that you have denied already that you made any statement that the girl was not a virgin? — I never said she was not a virgin. 9978. What did Dr. Weld mean by an "indif- ferent examination "? — He had just made a cur- sory examination in the ward, as I understand, just taking up her clothes ; and he saw this thick discharge, and he thought that he was jus- tified in taking her in ; otherwise, in five days, 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued, if she was not fit to be seen, she would have have been out. 9979. Then would you consider that the cir- cumstances of the case were such as to render suspicion natural and justifiable ? — Just so ; he had a suspicion, and I think he was justified. She was a very dirty girl, in a dirty, filthy con- dition, and therefore he thought it might be disease. 9980. Is not the diagnosis very difficult indeed between gonorrhcea and vaginitis ? — Yes, there is a little difliculty on a superficial examination. 9981. And if the girl had allowed herself to be examined upon that occasion, the diagnosis might have been more clear ? — Quite so. 9982. The diflSculty was caused by herself, in not allowing herself to be examined? — Yes; if she had submitted herself to be examined she would have gone away that day. 9983. The reason that you did not examine her yourself on the first occasion was that she was menstruating? — She said nothing then, ex- cept " I cannot be seen " ; that is to say, she was unwell. Then I turned round and said not an- other word to her, but only gave her a weekly paper, " Unfit for examination." 9984. I understood you to say that you have been frequently on the road to the examination room? — Yes, for 10 years constantly. 9985. At different times of the day ? — Yes. 9986. At various periods, when they could not know that you were coming? — Yes. 9987. From your more frequent opportunities of observation, you would consider that your opinion upon that point was better than Mr. Wheeler's ? — Yes. Mr. Bithver. 9988. On this occasion when Caroline Wybrow came to be examined, was her mother with her during the examination? — No; there are never any people allowed in the examination room but the women themselves and the nurse. 9989. Who were actually present at the time when this occurrence took place ? — At the first examination, simply the nurse and myself. 9990. Then when she was placed on the " don- key," who was present? — That was the next time ; that was after she had been in hospital. She came the second time, and she was not placed upon the chair at all the second time. It was the third time when she was brought up, and then she was seen by Mr. Weld and my- self. 9991. Perhaps that is the occasion to which I ought more particularly to direct your attention ; who were present on that occasion ? — Myself, Mr. Weld, and the nurse. 9992. And the girl?— And the girl. 9993. I presume that you did not furnish this information to Mr. Frederic Wheeler, nor did Mr. Weld, to your knowledge ? — No. 99C4. Nor the nurse ? — No. According to his evidence he got it from the girl herself. 9995. He must have got it from the girl her- self?— Yes. 9996. That I understand is the sole authority which he has for making this statement : " It would be unfit to put in print the further pro- 3 E 3 ceedings 406 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jardine [ Continued. Mr. Bulwer — contiuued. ceedings of this day, in which a State nurse, spy police, and a State doctor, each took part;" you being the State doctor alluded to. 1 understand you to say that with reference to Friday. January the 2yth," it is absolutely and positively ialse that the " State Doctor R. B. Jardine, M.D., desired her to submit ; she refuses positively, protesting lier innocence ; the doctor illegally gives her in charge to the police as a prisoner, to be forcibly detained in the hospital"' ? — I merely said that I took her in on a certain form, on suspicion of being diseased. 991)7. And it is upon the statement that he must have got from the girl herself that he, Mr. "Whe'elcr, publishes this leaflet in reference to you as the State doctor, and so forth ? — Yes : and she makes that declaration before a magis- trate. 9998. Upon oath ? — Yes. 9999. I am only speaking now with reference to the leaflet which Mr. Wheeler has published, and not with reference to her statement. You, I understand, know this locality referred to by Mr. Wheeler in his evidence, where he says that he saw the dirty, rough-looking men lying on the grass ? — Yes. 10000. And you pass it almost every day of your life ? — Yes, almost every day. 10001. I presume there would be no difficulty, if Mr. Wheeler was going with a friend for a particular purpose to see what went on on that day, for anybody to get a few rough men to lie about the grass if it were necessary. You are not, I dare say, very often in the habit of coming down to the House of Commons ? — No. 10002. You were not down here on the day when there were, I don't know how many, police in Palace Yard, and certain Members were cheered and others hooted as they came ? — No, but I have read a description of it. 10003. You would not bring that forward as an instance of the normal condition of affairs when Members are going to the House of Commons? — Ko. 10004. I understand you to say that you have practised in this locality for a great number of years ? — For 30 years. 10005. I need hardly ask you whether it is not perfectly easy for you, or for any other medical man, to ascertain whether a particular disease is more prevalent now than it was formerly or the reverse ? — The diminution of the disease is something remarkable in the civil population. I say that not from my own experience alone, but from the experience of all the medical men in the place. Mr. Cavendish Bcntinck. 10006. Supposing that these scenes described by Mr. Wheeler were constantly taking place, would it not follow that the attention of the local police would be called to them ? — I think it ought to have been if there was such a scene as Mr. Wheeler describes, because the police office IB close at hand. 10007. Does it not almost follow as a matter of course that if there were such disorderly scenes taking place, it would be the duty of the police themselves to interfere? — Yes; the metropolitan police would not interfere. Mr. Cavendish Bcntinck — contiuued. 10008. Would it not bo the duty of the local police to interfere ? — I think so. 10009. And do you not think that the local police, if they did not interfere, would be called upon to do so by the inhabitants? — 1 believe that what occured when Mr. Wheeler was there was not of sufficient importance to call the attention of the police to it. There were only a lew men going up the hill probably, and perhaps a drunken carter rolling on the side of the road. It might occur at any time or at any place ; but I do not think that it had anything to do with it. 10010. Have you ever heard of the attention of the local police being called to these disorderly scenes ? — No, never. 10011. There is a statement which as you are aware has been made in this leaflet to the effect that hundreds of terrified girls have signed the voluntary submission form on the threat and terror of impiisonmeut. Are you acquainted with the mode in which these girls sign tliis sub- mission form ? — Yes. 10012. I should be glad if you would tell me how it is done ? — When the police sec them fre- quenting places of ill-fame and going in and out with men, they warn them to come up and see the inspector. Instead of his going to them they come up to the inspector's office after that, and he asks them to sign that form, and he tells them the meaning of it. But now the thing is altered, and I have had instructions from the War Office that not only is he to examine them, but that the submission is to be signed in my presence. 10013. In jour long experience as visiting surgeon, have you ever known a case where a girl has been made to sign a submission form under the threat or terror of imprisonment? — Never ; it is always exjdained to them. I always ask them, and inquire thoroughly whether they understand exactly why they are brought there, and why they have signed that form ; and I tell them that it is to say, " Whilst you are acting as a prostitute, or are on the town, you are to come up here once a fortnight ; but if you choose to give it up, you can leave any day." 10014. You take great care that they are thoroughly informed as to W'hat they are about to do? — Yes. 10015. From these premises I understand that you will not concur in the statement that hundreds of terrified girls have been induced to sign this form under the fear of imprisonment? — No. 10016. In reply to a question addressed to him, ^Ir. Wheeler says that he knows nothing of the interior of these hospitals ; other witnesses who have been examined before this Committee, who are opposed to the Acts, have also stated that they are unacquainted with the working of the hospitals ; if you should have an application from any respectable person to visit the hospital, would such an application be granted? — No; you have to get leave from the Secretary of State for War. We allow ministers of all de- nominations to come without any leave, but if any other person wishes to come, according to the regulations, I have to apply to the War Office to give me leave to admit them. 10017. I am not asking the question from any controversial SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 407 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jaedine. \_Contin%':'>d. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck — continued, controversial point of view, but merely for my own information. First of all, any minister of any religious denomination can visit a patient who belongs to that denomination ? — Yes. 10018. Supposing that I myself, or any honour- able Member of this Committee, wished to visit your Lock Hospital and see how things are car- ried on, what process would he have to go through ? — I believe that if any Member of the House of Commons, or any of yourselves, were to come, we should not send for that permission ; but, as a rule, if any stranger comes I write up and say, " Mr. so and so wishes to look over the hospital if you have no objection," and I always get an answer to say that there is no objection. But the rules distinctly say " You are not to admit anyone, not even a medical man, without asking for leave." 10019. For instance, supposing that Dr. Nevin, of Liverpool, wished to visit the Lock Hospital at Chatham, would he have to apply for leave ? — Yes ; he did apply once, and he was told that we could not admit him according to the rules, but that if he chose to go to the commandant he could get leave, and that would save him sending to London. He could have got it himself then, if he had gone to the commandant. 10020. Were you one of the visiting surgeons when Dr. Nevin made this application? — I was assistant visiting surgeon. I did not see him. 10021. Do you know whether Dr. Nevin did apply to the commandant ? — I believe he did not, because he never came back. He came to the gate, and he was told that that was the rule, but that there was one way of doing it without sending to the Secretary of State, and that that was to go to the commandant, and he could give him leave. Mr. Stansfeld. 10022. Do you know that he did not go to the commandant? — I do not know; I can only say that I understood that he did not come back again. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 10023. Do you know whether any reasonable application to visit the hospital would be refused from a gentleman of Dr. Nevin's position, or from any responsible person? — You must act according to the rules. Chairman. 10024. But supposing that you do act accord- ing to the rules, would not a reasonable applica- tion to visit the hospital be acceded to, so far as you know ? — You must act according to the in- structions. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 10025. Do you think that if an application was made to the commandant, or to the War Office, by any responsible person, in all proba- bility that application would be acceded to? — Most decidedly. Mr. Hopwond. 10026. Have you known of such a case of a person's going to the commandant ? — I do not think I ever have. They never seem to sro. 0.75. ^ Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 10027. With reference to this placard, which is alleged to have been on Caroline Wybrow's bed, was there a placard put above her bed? — Yes, the name of the disease is stuck over the bed. 10028. Do you know what was written on the placard ? — 1 did not see it, but when she was put in on the " L " form there was no disease put up, because she had not been examined ; but when Mr; Weld made what he called an indifferent or partial examination, he came to the conclusion that it must be gonorrhoea, and then he put " Gonorrhosa " on the placard. Then, when we both examined her again, we came to the con- clusion that it was merely vaginitis, a discharge, but not actually gonorrh(Ba, and therefore she was discharged. 10029. In your opinion, was it in accordance with the rules and justified by the facts that he placed such a placard over the bed? — It is ab- solutely necessary to put over every bed the disCHse that the patient is suffering from. 10030. At that time the disease had not sufficiently developed itself to enable him to know what it really was? — He believed that it was gonorrhcea. It is the same in all other hos- pitals. 10031. At Question 1201, Mr. Wheeler was asked : " Can you specify to us any information upon this subject which you have received from nurses in Lock Hospitals?" and his answer was, " The statement is, that after the women have passed through the examinations there, they give up all hope, all is lost as to their character." From your experience, which must be very great of these women, do you think that that is the feeling which is predominant in their minds ? — I do not think so. As a proof to the contrary, I believe that Miss Webb has a statement of about 105 women now living a respectable life in Chatham who have been in the hospital. 10032. You have had great opportunities of seeing the women and of conversing with the women ?— Yes, it does not accord with my ideas at all. 10033. You entirely disagree with that opinion? — Yes, quite so. Mr. HopiBood. 10034. Do you think that the examination has no hardening effect ? — It does not seem to me so. 10035. But I ask you do you think so? — As far as my experience goes, it does not seem to me so. 10036. There are different degrees of modesty in these women, are there not? — Yes. 10037. And many of them come ,0 this exami- nation with great repugnance, do they not? — I do not often see much repugnance. 10038. Do you mean to say that they rather prefer it than not ? — I do not know that they prefer it, but I very seldom see any objection to it. 10039. Do you mean to say that you do not see signs that it is very distasteful to them ? — Sometimes ; it is difl'erent in different women. 10040. In a case where it is very distasteful, do you think that a woman gets over that by repeated examinations afterwards? — I think that is very likely. 10041. Has that what you call a hardening or 3 E 4 a sofieninor 408 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 9 June 1882.] Mr. Jardine. IConiuiucd. Mr. Hopxcood — continued, a softening effect? — I do not know. At first they do not know what it is, and they are timid and frightened, but they begin to see that there is notliing indelicate in the way of doing it, and that there is no ]Kxin in doing it, and then they get over tlie feeling. 100-12. I am not a medical man, but does it not appear to you an indelicate operation ? — It is a necessary operation in disease. 10043. It may be justified by necessity, but I ask you is it not a very indelicate operation? — I do not know what to say upon that matter. It is an operation that I have to perform with private patients a great deal, and I never found that I •was doing anything indelicate. Mr. Oshorne Monjan. 10044. Is there any difl'ercnce between the the cxaniiuation of these w(inien and the exami- nation of ordinary virtuous patients ? — None. Mr. Ilopn-ood. 10045. Do yon draw a distinction between a lady coming with the sense that she has a neces- sity for examination and another woman coming by order of the law ? — There is this distinction, that in the case where it is done by order of the law it is from a benevolent motive and a good motive. 10046. You put it to me that it is not more indelicate than a lady coming to you who feels obliged to come ? — No, not a bit ; I should think it was more indelicate to the lady than to the prostitute. 10047. Do you know the case of a lady who comes once a fortnight by order to be examined ? — Nof by order. 10048. But I understand that that is your reason for not thinking it an indelicate operation? — I think it would be more indelicate to a private lady than to a common prostitute. 10049. Then am I to understand that you do or do not think it an indelicate operation ? — I think that, as far as thej- are concerned, it is not an indelicate operation, because their life is of that character that an operation like that to them is nothing. lOOoO. Is that assuming that they are already prostitutes ? — Quite so. 10051. If Wybrow was not a prostitute, it was .in indelicate opei'ation, by your definition, to submit her to it? — Yes, but there was no alter- native, according to the law, if she was shown to be a prostitute. 10052. Then you mean that we ought to object to the law, and not to anything that you do ? — Certainly. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 10053. Have there, to your knowledge, been any other cases except that of Caroline Wybrow Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued, of complaints made as to the administratiDn of the Acts at Chatham? — Not to my knowledge. 10054. Are you aware that an order has re- cently been issued by the Secretary of State for "War, and the Admiralty, that in all cases the voluntary submission form of which we iiave spoken shall be signed by the woman, and attested by the police in the presence of the visiting surgeon? — I have received instructions to tliat efi'ect, and I have been carrying them out since. Mr. Ilopwood. 10055. Have you the date of that order ? — It is of recent date ; only a week or two ago. Since I received that order, these instructions have been carried out ; the women are all brought into my office. 1005G. Then, if the necessity has existed for all the years that the Acts have been in opera- tion, it has only been recognised lately? — t)nly lately. That has only been, very likely, in con- sequence of what has been said about the hun- dreds of girls. Mr. Stansfeld. 10057. I understood you to say, a short time ago, that the word " gonorrhoea " was put over Caroline Wybrow's bed in the hospital, in ac- cordance with the regulations ? — Yes. 10058. I sujipose I must understand you as meaning that, if she had been rightly placed in the hospital, it would have been in accordance with the regulations? — Yes. 10059. But she was not rightly placed there ? — After five days, if they are taken in on the " L" form. 10060. But you do not contend to-day that you were justified in putting her into hospital on the " L" form, do you ? — That is the question. I am told by the Secretary of State that I was not justified. 10061. Therefore, when you say that gonor- rhoea W.1S rightly placed over her bed, though it turned out that she had not gonorrhopa, you assume the whole proceedings to have been regular ; is that so ? — Yes. Mr. Weld saw her, and neither Mr. Capon nor Mr. Weld said that I had done wrong ; we all agreed that I had been doing what was right, but we were all wrong. Dr. Farrjuharson. 10062. Do you consider that any operation, scientifically undertaken for purely scientific purj)oses, can be indelicate ? — No, I do not think so. 10063. Then you consider that in this case the hardening woidd be jjhysical, and not moral? — Decidedly. 10064. That is to say, women get used to a process which at first sight cause them a little physical discomfort ? — Yes. Miss Maky Anne Webb, called in; and Examined. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 10065. You are the Lady Superintendent of the Lock Hospital at Chathnm, are you not .' — I am. 10066. How long have you held that office? — Eleven years and eight months. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 10067. I have no doubt you recollect a state- ment in writing, which you made on the 16th of June 1876, with reference to the case of Caroline Wybrow? — Yes, perfectly. 10068. You SKLECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 409 9 June 1882.] Miss "Webb. \_Cver was, " There vvould still be some saved' from the wreck ; but there is one jiortionof Holy Scripture that always comes into my mind about them, ' Who being past feeling, have given themselves over.' That is the horrible impression that one has about them." Then the next question is : " That is the condition, you think, of women who have led this life of registered prostitution for such a lengthened period of time ? " in answer to whicli he says, " So long, and so persistently, though some of them are quite younT." I presume that does not tally with your experience ? — With regard to the women who have been on the streets, there are 105 names given me by Inspector Nutt. Those women I know to be all right, because I have seen them in the town myself. They are leading respectable lives, and 1 know they ai-e not in the least afraid of the police. {The same was huvchd in.) The names must not be published, but that is for your own information. 10124. I presume from that, that you draw the inference that these women are not all irreclaim- ahle ? — No, and one extraordinaiy incident has occurred since I was prejjared to come up here. I heard of a girl being in the town, and I saw her myself; she was nine years on the town, and she had been twenty-one times in the hospital, and now she is leading a perfectly respectable life, She blushed up to her eyes when she saw me, but I did not speak to her, and I pretended not to see her. 10125. You have been 11 years and 8 months at the hospital ? — I have. 10126. Did you live in Chatham before that' — I have lived in Chatham all my life, and that brought me there, in fact ; I know it well. 10127. Then perhaps you could give us some information, either of your own knowledge or from some trustworthy source, as to the condition of the town, and particularly as to the number of these unfortunate women who were on the town before the Acts came into operation ? — I cannot do better than quote the words of a sermon which Canon Joseph preached at St. John's Church for the Refuge, and wliich I asked him to print. He Mr. Oshorne Morijan — continued, said, " There are more than 300 wretched women in these towns." 10128. What was the date of that sermon? — 1862 ; and now there are 153 on the register. 10129. Do you know tliat the number returned, at any rate, is very much less thau that? — No, I have very little to do with that. 10130. Do you know anything as to the exist- ence of clandestine ))rostitution in Chatham? — I know nothing about it, except in the case of two quite children whom then." own parents put under our police to bring them under our care. Those were girls practising clandestine prostitution, and their ])arents wished them to be brought up to the hospital that they might be re- formed. 10131. That was a case in which, through the instrumentality of the ])arents, and with a view to their children having the benefit of the religious teaching supplied in your hospital, they were brought by the parents to the hospital? — Yes. 10132. It has been stated by some of the witnesses that the influences of the hos])ital life tell very badly upon the patients ; is that your experience ? — No, and you w ill find in Mrs. Grant's letter that she does not find it also. The ordinary domestic bearing of;hospital life, tells upon them often for good, as they do their part in needlework (and many who come in do not know how to sew at all), and in keeping , the wards clean, and assisting in the laundry, and in the kitchen. 10133. That seems to be borne out by this letter from Father Morrissey, the Roman Catholic priest ? — Yes. 10134. What is his experience ? — There arc few only of the Roman Catholics who do come, and he sees them, and he has just now sent one to the convent at Finchley. Some of them go wi'ong. 10135. Is he in the habit of visiting the hospital ? — He comes whenever I tell him that there are any of his own congregation there. 10136. I will read the letter that was written to you by Father i\Iorrissey : " St. JSlichael's Presbytery, Chatham.— Dear Miss Webb, I am happy to state, for your information, that the hospital over which you preside as matron acts beneficially according to my judgment. To my certain knowledge, it has been the means of reclaiming moi'C than one person from an evil life. jMoreover, the regulations of your hospital appear to be carried out with kindness and as much indulgence as possible ; and I had not heard, during my experience, of any undue harshness or severity. Very truly yours, James Morrissey.'" Does that come from a gentleman who, in consequence of his knowledge of the hospital, is competent to offer an opinion upon the subject ? — Quite. He sees his own people privately in the chaplain's room. 10137. You say that the influence of the hospital life upon the girls is, upon the whole, an influence for good ? — Yes. 10138. Will you explain to me how ? — Mrs. Grant has told me several times that the girls have told her that the simple domestic arrange- ments, and the bringing tiiem back to what is more like home life, has made them think. 10139. What SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 413 9 June 1882. J Miss Webb. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 10139. What work do they do there? — Needlework. They make all the clothing of the hospital ; the underclothing and the dresses too. It is cut out by the nurses, and made by the patients. They do all the mending, and they keep the place clean, and do it very willingly. 10140. Do they ever refuse to work ? — No, they will ask for work. Lately I have been rather troubled about it, because I have not enough for them to do. 10141. Do they assist in the laundry and in the kitchen? — Yes. 10142. All that, I presume, helps to instruct them? — Yes, it all helps to instruct them. 10143. I suppose that some of them are very ignorant ? — Very ; some cannot read or write. Others, again, are quite educated. Some cannot hold a needle. 10144. Do you instruct them? — Yes, they are instructed by the nurses to do that. 10145. Therefore, they acquire in that way something like an education ? — Yes. 10146. Has Mrs. Grant ever held any commu- nication with you upon the subject of the good influences which the training and education in the hospital have upon these women? — Yes, she is very often up in the hospital. 10147. Do you recollect a meeting held at St. Peter's, Eaton-square, of the Church Peniten- tiary Association, at which you were present ? — Yes, on the 9th of last month; and we were told there byMissEUice Hopkins that cliildren of very tender age (of eight, nine, and ten years old, and even seven years old) were brought to her, which I was very shocked at, for I never heard of such a thing in our protected district. 10148. She was speaking of London ? — Yes. 10149. Could such horrors as that exist in a district like yovrs ? — I should say not ; it has never come under my knowledge. The very youngest I have had was 14 years of age, and that very day I had taken one up. I had no idea that children under that age were ever led astray. 10150. A good many questions have been founded upon Captain Harris's Returns, and upon the relative age of the women on the register as appealing from those returns : should you say that those returns were perfectly trustworthy ? — No. It is very difficult, in fact it is almost impossible, to get at the aae of a girl, unless you are prepared to go to ail the registers in the country. I have known a girl to persist for three months that she was 17 years old, and then her mother has told me that she was only 15, or even less. 10151. Is the tendency of the younger women to make themselves out older than they really are ? — Yes ; and of the older women to make themselves out younger. 10152. Therefore you do not think that any returns compiled from the statements of these women themselves can be accurate ? — No ; you cannot compile them from the statements of the women themselves. 10153. I think that between the 1 st of January 1871 and the Slstof December 1881, that is, tor II years, the number of women admitted to your 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. hospital was 1,804 ? — Yes ; that is the number of different pei'sons, not of cases. 10154. How many of those were admitted only once? — Seven hundred and eighty-eight. 10155. They never came back again? — They never came back again. 10156. From that one would argue that they were deterred ? — Certainly. I draw the infer- ence that the Act deters the women from keeping on the town. 10157. I think you have a return showing what number of these women were reclaimed? — 1 have given in just now a return of those who were sent to homes. Those who are sent to their friends are sent only on promising to give up their evil courses, because they could not be sent at the public expense to continue their evil life. 10158. Were those women who were sent in that way to homes or to their friends sent at the expense of the Government ? — Yes. 10159. The Government always pays the cost of sending the women back ? —Yes. 10160. Of those reclaimed how many have •been in hospital more than once? — Ninety-nine were in more than once ; some were in three times, some four, some five and some six, and one was even in nine times; and she is going ou very well, for I met her the other day. 10161. That at any rate shows that you never need lose hope of a woman ? — No, we never do. 10162. It was stated by Mr. Cooper, I think, that girls were kept in the hospital after they had been cured ; is that so ? — No. 10163. At Question 4018 Mr. Cooper was asked this : " Do those women say that they are kept in the hospitals after they have been cured, in order to benefit the hospital in some way or other? {A.) They do. (Q.) And you believe that? {A.) I have not a shadow of reason to doubt it :" is that the fact ? — No. 10164. Is it the fact that any girl who has been cured has been kept in the hospital? — Only at her own request, to give me time to write to her parents to ask them to come and fetch her. I am constantly asked by parents to keep girls, and make them go into homes if I can, and I simply answer that I have no power to do that ; having been cured, they are out of my hands ; I cannot make any girl go to a home : it must be voluntary. 10165. Mr. Cooper seems to place great re- liance upon the statements of the fallen ^vomen, and upon their truthfulness; does your own ex- perience bear that out ? — Oh, dear, no. If you have time I should like to tell you a case or two; there was one case when I had been there nine years ; that girl shook all over; I never saw such an actress in my life ; she told me that she had no father ; that her father died when she was a month old, and that her mother died at her birth, and that a woman had brought her up ; in fact, I made myself very unhappy and miserable over that poor child, as i thought her. Two days after I was asked if the girl's sister might see her, and I said, I should like to see the sister first. She said she brought the girl up, and I said, " You ?" and she said " And mother and father ; " in fact, the whole thing was a tissue of falsehoods. 10166. Is there any difficulty in getting a girl 3 F 3 off 414 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 9 June 1882.] Miss Webb. [ Co7itinued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. off the regisler if she wishes it? — No, she is free as soon as she leaves the hospitah 10167. But you could not speak to what hap- pens when she leaves the hospital? — Not unless she comes to me to ask me to help her, as they often do. 10168. Supposing that a girl came to you and said, " I wish to leave this life of sin which I am leading," would there be any difficult)'? — No ; she knows herself that there is no difficulty; they often come to me to ask if I can help them to get home. 10169. It is so easy for them to get off the register, that it is not necessary for them to apply to you? — No, not in the slightest; they often tell me that they are going to get off, but they have no reason to apply to me. 10170. As a matter of fact, when a girl is once off" the ret;ister, is she interfered with in any way by the police if she conducts herself pro- perly ? — No ; that list that I gave you shows that they are not in the least afraid to live in the town under the eye of the police. 10171. Are you awai-e that there is a standing garrison order in Chatham which prohibits the soldiers, except officers' servants sent on duty, from entering the field in which the hospital is situated? — Yes; and that has been a standing order ever since General Erskine's time, when he was commanding the garrison, and there have been several since. 10172. When was that order issued? — I should say it was about 1873 or 1874. 10173. It has been in existence seven or eight years, at any rate ? — Yes. 10174. You have spoken of your efforts for the ^ reclamation of women, which seem to have been very successful ; do you find that in many cases, notwithstanding repeated backslidings on the part of the women, you have succeeded eventually ? — Yes, that was the case with a girl that I met a few nights ago ; she curtsied to me, and I did not know who she was at the moment, and she told me who she was ; she went to a home, and she went back again, but she is re- spectable now. 10175. The work of reclamation of these women is a labour of love with you ? — Yes. I am not an unpaid person, if you mean that. I was working with the sisters at Clewer, and I went to Chatham not feeling very well, and I saw this hospital. I did not know that there was an Act of Parliament at all till I got there, and I determined to wait and see what it was like ; and I am satisfied that it is good. 10176. After your experience of 11 and a half years, you are satisfied that you have been able to do good and substantial work in the way of re- claiming these women by means of the oppor- tunities given you by the Contagious Diseases Acts? — Yes, by means of the opportunities given me by the Acts which I could not have had otherwise. Mr. Stansfeld. 10177. Do I correctly understand you to say that prayers are not read on Sunday evenings ? — No, because we have them in the afternoon, and we have hymns in the evening ; we do not Mr. Stansfeld — continued. actually have prayers in the evening afterwards. I merely mention that to substantiate my state- ment. * 10178. Do you read prayers on Sunday after- noon? — The clergyman does that. We have the Church of England service. 10179. Does any person read prayers for you? • — No, I always go round the hospital myself morning and evening. 10180. No one reads prayers for you? — No. 10181. And the evening service is not prayers, but hymns?— It is not a service at all; it is simply having hymns in chapel ; I give them in- struction on Sunday mornings. 10182. Who conducts the evening service ? — We only have hymns in the evening sometimes now, because I am not able to take it. I have done so. 10183. I want to ascertain what was in the mind of this girl Caroline Wybrow. Something happened upon thatevening; she spoke of prayers? — She may have meant the hymns, but I cer- tainly did not speak to her afterwards. 10184. You were present upon that occasion? — Yes, I am always pi'esent. 10185. You have told us to-day that you caused inquiries to be made about Caroline Wybrow from her former mistress, Mrs. Randall, when she was brought into the hospital ? — Yes, and she would not acknowledge being her mistress. 10186. But I find no statement to that effect in your declaration which is before tis? — No, I know that, because I only answered her allega- tions. 10187. You have spoken now of the facilities ofleaving a life of prostitution for those girls who pass through the hospital, but what about those who do not pass through the hospital ? — I have nothing to do with outside work, but I believe it is the same, in fact I know it is ; the police tell me so. 10188. It is not the same. You do not know perhaps that they have to make a written appli- cation ? — No. 10189. Have you never had refractory patients in the hosltal ? — Yes. 10190. And do you have them still? — Now and again. If a girl is not going out she will get refractory. They are a class that will do that. 10191. You have given a rather more favour- able opinion than we have received from some other witnesses of the chances of reclamation for registered women, but you would make a dis- tinction, would you not, between old offenders and those who are younger ? — The old offenders seldom will turn ; I mean old women. The ages vary up to 40, and one came on the register for the first time at 60 years of age. She was in twice. 10192. Do you not confirm the general evi- dence which we have received, and which seems to stand to reason and human nature, that the longer a woman continues in a life of prostitution the less likely she is to leave it ? — Of course that has nothing to do with the Act of Parliament. 10193. You yourself find that there is a great distinction in character and reclaimability between those who have been a short time and those who have been a long time on the register ? — No, I do not SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 415 9 June 1882.] Miss "Webb. \_Coiitinued. Mr. Stansf eld — continued, not say so in that way ; it is more according to tte temperament of the woman. It is a harden- ing process, of course, but I do not give them up upon that account. 10194. It is your duty not to give them up ; in fact, if you will allow me to say so, it is your duty to believe that the case of uo woman is hope- less ? — Exactly. 10195. But are you aware that in the protected or subjected districts there is a constant tendency to an increase in the ages of the registered women ? — 1 do not understand you. Do you mean that they live longer there, or that they come on the register later. 10196. What I mean is this: we have an annual police return, tirst of all, for the whole of the .subjected districts, and then disti-ict by dis- trict ? — But that is a question that I cannot go into, because that again is outside work. I can only tell you about our own hospital. 10197. We have the ages of these women for every year, from 12 years up to 21 years, and then we have them for three periods of five years between 21 and 26, or 26 and 31, and 31 and over ; and the remarkable figures which we find are in the two later columns; we find that since the Acts were brought into operation there has been a very remarkable and constant increase in the number of women between 26 and 31, and 31 and over ; were you aware of those figures ? — No, but I do not see what they prove. I have not noticed this ; statistics are things that I do not notice much. 10198. If that should turn out to be one of the consequences of the Acts, you would say that these women were less likely to be reclaimed ? — No ; but the Acts give them a chance to live longer, and if they live longer, they have a greater chance of repentance. 10199. The Acts do not give them longer life ; these are not the ages at which they die ? — No, but if the medical care of them causes them to live longer, then they have longer time, and they have more opportunities for repentance by coming to us. 10200. 1 am not speaking of their lives; 1 am speaking of the ages of these women on the register ; what we find is that under the Acts there is a constant tendency towards women re- maining on the register, and therefore practising prostitution to a later aoe, and therefore for a longer period ? — Not therefore for a longer period. Many of them come on the register at 40 years of age ; they have come in from other districts. IO2OI1 You may assume everything you can in favour of the Acts, but that is not proof; but if you find a constant tendency to increase of the number of women on the register above the age of 26, I have a right to assume that at any rate to a considerable extent they are remaining a longer time than they otherwise would have remained in prostitution ? — No; and I may give you one fact as an answer to that. A girl had been six years in that life before she came on the register, and she has just now left the hospital. She was six years in another district. Chairman. 10202. The Right honourable Gentleman points out thai year by year as you go on you 0.75. Chairman — continued, find a heightening in the age of the prostitutes on the register, which shows that there is ap- parently some influence at work which induces the women to remain on the streets a longer time? — Yes, I do not doubt that. Mr. Stansf eld. 10203. Whether that be a consequence of the Acts or not, though a good deal depends upon the individual temperament of the women, vou are not prepared to deny that it is advisable to get them out of their profession at the earliest possible period, and that the longer they stay the less likely they are to be reclaimed, and the more likely they are to do mischief in the hospital itself? — That is so. 10204. Have you not found it necessary to have a separate ward for the younger girls ? — That is provided by the Government, not by me; I found it there when I went. 10205. Do you not find that necessary? — Very necessary. 10206. With reference to the evidence that you have given about the behaviour of these women under your charge, I should like to refer you to a letter which you wrote to Ltr. Cooper on the 27th of February 1882 ; do you recollect that letter ? — Yes. 10207. I will read to you one or two passages from it, and ask you whether you abide by the opinions which you there express : " Lock Hos- pital, Chatham, 27th February 1882. — Dear Sir, Thank you for your letter and book. You do not seem to be aware that we have a small ward quite apart from the rest of the hospital where we place young girjs on being brought in for the first time; and it is from that ward that comes, whom Mrs. Lyall (deaconess) will bring to-mor- row to one of your homes, by your kind permis- sion ; I hope she will not disappoint us." Am I right in understanding that that letter was addressed to Mr. Cooper in reference to a request of yours that he would take Into one of the homes of the Rescue Society a girl who had been in your hospital ; and that you put forward the fact that she had been kept in a separate ward as evidence of the possibility of her reclamation? — Yes. 10208. Then you go on to say, " I can readily imagine that girls received from the large wards might do mischief"? — Yes, because they do not profess to do anything. 10209. " And, as you say, they enter a home with the sole purpose of drawing others away. I have experienced this with regard to our smuU ward ; a woman, some years ago (an old offender), came in while I was away, and said she desired to reform, and was placed in the reform ward, to my horror, on my return"? — Yes, because I knew her to be an old offender, and not one at all likely to be reclaimed. 10210. Would you not say that it was of great importance to keep the irreclaimable old offenders, who are likely not only to continue that life themselves, but to draw others Into It, or to per- suade them to remain in It, away from the younger girls ? — Yes, that is what we do. 10211. You go on to say in your letter: "However, I was persuaded to try her as she really seemed in earnest. She drew them all aside from their purpose, and we lost that set 3 F 4 altogether. 416 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN HEFOUE THE 9 June 1882."! Miss Webb. \_Contiinied. Mr. Slansfeld — continued, altogether. I have been as cautious as possible as to liavincr no old offenders there, and we have ci-ht - * . ' . * I hope to do something with God's help. Being a number of years on the street, whether uiuler the Contagious Diseases Act or no, fearfully depraves a woman, and we have many who come in here for the first time, who have been many years going on in that awl'ul life before coming under the Contagious Diseases Acts." That is your opinion ? — I'es. 10212. Therefore it would also be your opinion that if tlie Acts tend to keep women in a life of prostitution for a longer period than they would otherwise remain in it, that would be an evil influence? — Certainly it would, but I do not think it docs. 10213. Have you investigated that subject? — Yes, but I have not investigated all these sta- tistics, because I have nothing to do with the police matter. 10214. You have no opinion to express upon that point ? — No, I have not. Dr. Farquharson. 10215. I think you have explained the fact of the women remaining longer in prostitution by the fact that in consequence of the Acts they live longer ? — Y'es, that is what I understood ]\Ii-. Stansfeld to mean ; that their health being better they live longer, and for that reason they have a longer life. 10216. Do they come into prostitution at an older age ? — They come to us at an older age, but many of them have been leading that kind of life for many years. Dr. Farquharson — continued. 10217. Do you think one reason why the older prostitutes arc more diHicult to rcchiim is be- cause, being older and more hardened in apjiear- ance, they tiiul it more difficult to obtain honest occupation ? — Yes, I know that to be the case. 10218. Do you find that those women, when facilities are provided for their escape from their profession, are less inclined to take advantage of those facilities than younger women are ? — On the contrary, some of the older women have dejilorcd very much that they cannot get away from their course of life because they arc old. They would take advantage of such facilities if they could get them, but it is very diliicult to get them for the older ones. Chairman. 10219. Y''ou spoke of one prostitute of 60 years of age coming into tlie hospital for the first time ; did it turn out that she had been long living a life of prostitution, or did she then come in for the first time? — She had been leading a life of prostitution; she had been an ill-used wife ; her husband had ill-treated her, and she had left him. 10220. Had she been long leading a life of prostitution when she came into the hospital ? — I think about two or three years ; not more than that. Jlr. Cavendish Bentinch. 10221. Speaking generally, what is your opinion of the effect of these Acts upon female suflPering ? — It is, and must of course be, decidedly beneficial. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 417 Tuesday, I3th June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Cavendisli Bentiuck. Mr. Bulwer. Mr. Burt. Dr. Cameron. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson. Mr. William Fowler. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Shauglmessy. Mr. Stansfetd. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Mr. William Luscombe. called in; and Examined. Chai7'man. 10222. I THINK you are a native of Plymouth ? —Yes. 10223. And you have always resided there ? — I have. 10224. You are an alderman of the borough, are you not ? — I am, at the present time. 10225. You were mayor in 1860-61, and 1869-70?— I was. 10226. You are the senior justice of the borough ? — I am. 10227. And I believe you hold the position of consul lor the Netherlands and ^'ice-consul for France and Russia? — I do. 10228. You are familiar, as a prominent resi- dent and magistraf:e and public man at Plymouth, with the career of the Contagious Diseases Acts in Plymouth ? — Yes. 10229. Can you tell us what has been the character of the local opposition in Plymouth to those Acts up to this time? — In the year 1865, when the Contagious Diseases Act was first applied, and until 1869 and 1870, there was not much opposition, but subsequently the metro- politan police officers found themselves face to face with the prostitutes and brothel keepers, who were encouraged by some possibly well- meaning persons to resist the law. Of late years, say from 1875, the opposition has become weaker and weaker, and is now practically reduced to nothing. 10230 You spoke of the prostitutes and brothel keepers being encouraged Ly some persons to re- sist the law ; will you explain what you mean by that statement ?— At the early period, the pex'iod which I referred to in my former answer, the body called Quakers and some Nonconformists raised objections, and certainly did endeavour to discourage the prostitutes from complying with the terms of the Act. I admit their great respec- tability ill my town, and I know them very well, but from the first I was sorry to find them en- listed amongst the opponents of the measure. 10231. Do you mean that they encouraged the prostitutes not to submit themselves for examina- tion "^ — Not to submit themselves. 10232. Did they encourage them to avoid voluntary submission, or did they encourage them, 0.75. Chairrnaii— continued. when an order was given by the magistrates for submission and inspection, to violate that order ? — In both cases. 10233. You have known instances of that? — I have known instances of that. I remember cases which have been brought before me as a magis- trate where those facts have been proved. 10234. How do you account for the with- drawal of the opposition which you have de- scribed ? — The Acts are now very much better understood, and it is a very rare thing (^it has not taken place for months within my knowledge) for the officer to be obliged to apply for an attend- ance order. Formerly this was almost a weekly duty. I believe that the principal cause for the diminished opposition is to be found in the fact that the women understand better the principle of the Acts, and recognise that the principle is more merciful to them than was at first contem- plated by them on the passing of the Act of 1864, which first came into operation on the 1st of April 1865. They found out, in the first place, that it provides for their restoration to health, and, what is still more important, that it bi'ings them within good influences, so as lo help them on to a better life. The whole system of the Lock Hospital is directed to both those points, and I know, from circumstances which have come before me as a justice, that the metropolitan police officers use most praiseworthy efforts to withdraw women, especially very young women, from their wretched life. Application is made by respect- able people also who are in trouble about their servants. 10235. Has the paper from which you are reading- been prepared by yourself? — By myself only, because I thought it was a serious matter to come before you. I am not a willing witness altogether. I was informed that I should be ex- pected to give evidence, if I would allow it to be so, and I have condensed, as well as I can, the substance of what I have known during the last few years from 1865. 10236. With a view of presenting accurately, and in a business-like manner, the result of your own experience ? — Yes. I have known instances of girls from 14 to 17 who have absented themselves from home, and who have 3 G been 418 MINUTED* OF KVIDENCK TAKEN BEFOHE THE 13 June 1882.] Mr. LUSCOMBE. [ Continued. C/iaiiiiian — continued, been traced and restored solely by tlie interven- tion of the metropolitan police. I siiall have to j)lace before the Committee a letter from the head of one of the principal houses in Plj'uiouth, a very large employer of female labour ; I am bound to say that the mother of this gentle- man is an opponent of the Act. A very few days ago her servant left her house very un- expectedl)-. She was a girl who had not borne a good character, but who had been taken into the house from motives of cliarity. When tiie lady missed her servant, she sent for her son, and eaid, " AVhat am I to do?" He said, "I had better go and speak to Mr. Annis." " Oh, no," she said, " I do not wish that." " But," said ho, " I think it is the only way in whicii we shall be able to find out." Well, the son took upon himself to go and see Mr. Anniss, and within a very few hours this girl was withdrawn from a bad place and restored to the family ; and 1 am happy to say that now she is placed in a home where she will not be exposed to tliat danger again, and that they look upon her as to a great extent saved by the intervention of Air. Anniss. 10237. Did you receive the account oi' this transaction from the lady or from her son? — From the son. 10238. We have had evidence before us ia which charges have been made against the officers of the metropolitan police as to their mode of conducting their duties ; have you come across any such charges ? — I am sorry to say that I have. For years the opponents of the Acts have charged the police force with undue severity towards the poor women, and in some cases direct charges have been made against the inspector and his staff. 10239. Have those charges come before you in your magisterial caj)acity ? — They have. 10240. And have you had an oi)portunity of magisterially, inquiring into them? — It is upon that ground that I venture to speak. There has never been a charge substantiated. I regret to say that a recklessness of assertion which some would call perjury has been resorted to, to secure a conviction, but without effect. I have a case in point, if the Committee would desire to know what has been the spirit of the opposition. 10241. I do not know that that is necessarv : at any rate there have been charges made, but there has never been a decision against the police, as I understand? — Tliere has been no decision against the police. Every case that has been brought before the magistr.ites has been a failure. 10242. As a rule, have you more than one magistrate sitting on the bench to hear cases? — The number varies from two or three to four or five, and sometimes 10 or 12. Our number, I think, at the present moment is 24. 10243. Have you justices on tiie bench occa- sionally who are opposed to the Acts ? — I cannot say that we have. 10244. Have your bench expressed opinions in public with regard to the mode in which the police administer the Acts ? — I think I may say that when a case has been before the macis- Uatcs, and an attempt has been made to Chat mill 11 — con tinned, create ditKculties for the police, the magistrates have always thought proper to cxj)ress satisfaction at the manner in which Inspector Anniss and his force have conducted the business. 10245. Can you say anything with regard to the number of prostitutes and brothels now in Plymouth, contrasted with the number before the Acts came into operation? — I have taken such an interest in the question that I have from year to year kept up a record of the numbers of houses and jprostitutes, gathered not only from our own sources of information, from our own police, but also from the records of the metro- politan police. I did not think it well to trouble the Connnittee with figures upon any large scale, but I will tell the Committee what was the state of things in 1865, and what it was in 1881. Mr. StausfeUl. 10246. Do your figures differ from Cai)tain Harris's figures? — I do not know Cajitain Harris's figures ; I have taken them from returns which I believe to be accurate returns. Chnirinan. 10247. What are those returns from whicii you have taken them ? — From information afforded by our own local i)olice, and also from the returns made to Scotland Yard by the metropolitan police. 10248. Is the information given to you b}' your own local police, documentarv or oral ? — Generally it is oral information, but not always, because I have taken my figures from printed returns. 1 find, from my examination, that in 1865 there were 356 brothels. ]Mr. StdnKfeld. 10249. Are you speaking of Plymouth alone, or of the three towns? — Of the three towns, as well as mv memory serves me, without more com- plete figures. 10250. You have the same figures as Captain Harris ? — That refers to what is called the Ply- mouth district. Then I find that in ISSO there were 81 brothels : and I know, from my own memory of what has been doing in the last year, that several brothels have been closed by prosecu- tions during the year 1881 (prosecutions through the guardians of the jioor). So that at this mo- ment tiie number would be fewer, though I do not know how manj' fewer. Chairmav. 10251. Then what have you to say as to the number of j)rostiiutes? — In 186G there were 1,770 prostitutes. ;Mr. Stansfdd. 10252. Is not that the number in 1865?— I think it is for 1866. 10253. One thousand seven hundred and seventy is the figure for 1865 ?— That is for the very end of 1865 ; that was for the first nine months after the Act was put in force ; it began on the 1st of April 1865. In 1881 there were 427 prostitutes. 10254. Can SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 419 13 June 1882.] Mr. LuscoMBE. [ Continued. Chairman. 10254. Can you contrast the ages of the girls in those years? — In the earlier period of 1865 I believe the average age was 19 years ; the average age of the last year was 26 years. 10255. How did you learn the average ages ? — It has been taken from the returns ; those are the returns made to Scotland Yard. 10256. We have had a good deal of evidence as to the action of the metropolitan police as contrasted with the action of the borough police in preventing prostitution ; have you had an op- portunity of seeing how far the action of the borough police has been instrumental in pre- venting prostitution? — I cannot say, but I believe that it has been instrumental. 10257. Do you attribute the reduction in the number of brothels to the action that you spoke of just now on the part of the board of guardians ? — Through the representations of the metropo- litan force to the board of guardians ; through their clerk, who is a solicitor, they are compelled to take action, and the prosecution passes through the hands of the board of guardians. 10258. Are you a member of the board of guardians yourself? — I am not this year, but I have been. 10259. Is it within your own knowledge that these representations have been made to the clerk to the guardians by the metropolitan police ? — I know they have been. 10260. Is it your belief that the borough police have mainly directed their attention to the maintenance of order and propriety ? — That is their specific duty. I have never been able to undei'stand why any merit should be given to our police for the suppression of prostitution in any way ; they look to the order and propriety of the conduct of the women in the streets. 10261. Have you come across cases in which your local police have made representations to the guardians with regard to brothels and prosti- tutes similar to those which you state have been made by the metropolitan police ? — I have no recollection of such a case. 10262. Will you be kind enougli to contrast the state of the streets now, and the general tone of the town with regard to pi'ostitution, with what it was before the Acts ? — I was the chief magistrate in 1860, and certainly the state of the town at that time was very bad and very dis- graceful. I do not make any complaint against the police of that day, but it is a fact that 2X that time there used to be a great deal of disorder in the streets, much more than is ever seen now. It was a practice at that time for the poor women from the quays and from the water-side premises to come up into the town and scatter themselves over the principal thoroughfares, very often with- out bonnets, and very often without sufficient clothing ; and, in the first year of my oflSce, I determined that this state of things should not continue to exist if I could find the means of putting an end to it. 10263. In what year was that?— In 1860 and 1861. 10264. Was that change effected by your police ? — It was done by our own police. lU26o. Can you describe any further gradual change, and indicate when it began ; do you O.fo. Chairman — continued, think that these Acts have, in one way or another, had an effect in checking public disorder ? — Un- doubtedly ; the town is very much more orderly in a variety of ways in regard to the absence of solicitation, and the general deportment of the women in the streets is very different from what it was since the Acts have been in force. 10266. Mr. Shaen handed in to us a Paper in which he makes statements with regard to an oc- currence in the Devonport and Plymouth dis- tricts, which he alleged to have taken place on the 3rd of August 1870. I will state very briefly to you the nature of that alleged occur- rence. Three women were arrested by warrant, and the police attended, and the Admiralty soli- citor went to the court to prosecute them. Mr. Cooper, of the Rescue Society, asked if he might be present if the women assented to it, because the case was to be heard in closed court ; the mayor refused, and the mayor also refused Mr. Cooper's request that he might be allowed to provide the services of a solicitor, and said it was irregular. If you wish to rebut any state- ment of Mr. Shaen's contained in this paper with regard to those three v. omen who were arrested on the 3rd of August 1870, will you do so? — Mary Sullivan, Annie Moore, and Elizabeth Westlake, prostitutes, were summoned (jiot brought up by wan-ant) under Section 4 of the Contagious Diseases Act, 1869, and were ordered to submit to examination, the first examination to be on the 5th, two days afterwards ; according to the Act, those women were not compelled to be in court, Mr. Cooper was not allowed in court, because, at the request of the women, the court was closed. 10267. You were present on this occasion? — I was present, and I am stating this from my own knowledge, and' also from recent re- ference to the clerk's notes of the proceedings. I have had the old book turned out, and I have gone over this case for the purpose of being sure about it. Mr. Cooper himself and Mrs. King have been convicted, and fined 5 I. and costs, the one for incitin';^ to resist, and the other for re- sisting the police in the execution of their duty. 10268. In the execution of their duty in con- nection with these Acts ? — Yes ; and in respect of the charge against me, and against the other magistrates of not allowing these women to have legal defence, two out of the three had the most able advocate I venture to think in our town to defend them on that occasion. 10269. Did Mr. Cooper ask that he might be allowed to provide the services of a solicitor for (me or more of these women on that occasion ? — I believe not ; I do not remember that circum- stance ; but I was greatly surprised to find any difficulty raised by his evidence given before the Commission ; and I do know, by the evidence and by my own memory, that Mr. Robert Edmonds, one of our cleverest advocates, was engaged in the case. 10270. You are sure that that was not at a subsequent stage of the inquiry? — No, that took place at that time. Then at that time it is also said by Mr. Cooper, with regard to his own con- demnation and Mrs. King's condemnation, that he believed it to have arisen from the partiality 3 G 2 of 420 13 June 1882.] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE iMr. LUSCOMBE. [^Continued. Chairman — continued, of the bench, anil tliat t!ie mayor interrupted the case fifty times. Mr. Stunsfeld. 10271. Where is this stated? — In Mr. Cooper's evidence. 10272. Can you refer to it? — I think it is at page 614 of the evidence given before the Koyal Commission on the 24th of April 1871 ; as it is an accusation of gross partiality, I think I should not be denied the power of giving a flat contra- diction to that statement. 10273. You were examined before the Royal Commission, were you not? — I was; but I do not know whether it was before or after this. I was not present when Mr. Cooper gave that evidence; it is only very recently that it came to my know- ledge looking over the Blue Book, and 1 was aghast at the audacity of the statement. Chairman. ■ 10274. Then you disclaim any feeling of par- tiality in the decision of the case as attributed to you by any witnesses ? — Yes, it is monstrous. 10275. Have you read the evidence of the superintendents of your local police in the three towns ? — I have read the evidence. 10276. "What Is your opinion of that evidence? — I cannot say that I accej)! their statements that any diminution of prostitution is due to the action of the local police ; I am not singular in that ojjinion. Mr. Stansfeld. 10277. "Would you refer to the statements of the chiefs of the jiolice in the three towns to that efl'ect ? — I have read the evidence. Chair7nan. 10278. What were the names of those gentlc- xiicn? — Mr. AYrcford, the inspectoral Plymouth. 1027S. Mr. Wreford, talking of the reduction of the number of prostitutes and brothels, in answer to Mr. William Fowler, at Question 12, on the lOlh of March, stated that he denied that the reduction of the number ot brothels was caused by the Acts. He is referred by the honouralde Member to the bye-law No. 10 of the borough of Plymouth, with regard to per- sons kee[)iiig disorderly liouses, which ])rovides that if any person shall keep or sutler common prostitutes to assemble in those places, they will be liable to a penalty of 5 /. ; then, in the 14th questi11NITKS OF KVIDKNCE TAKKJi lilCl'l H! K TIIK 13 June 1882.] Mr. LuscoMBE. [ Continued. Chairman — continued, interference with the young women of your establishment on the jiart of the metropolitan Eolice has ever taken jilace. Complaints have cen made In some places of such intcrl'crence, and therefore I am anxious to ascertain whether anything of the sort can be alleged in rcsi)ect of Plymouth district. I am aware that the oppo- nents of the Contagious Diseases Acts endeavour to find excuse for their O]ij)osition in the appre- liension of such interference ; hut I know oi' no Act which can justify the statement made by those of our neighbourhood who are hosiile to the legislation of 18C5. 1 am, Gentlemen, yours faithfully, //'. Luscomlie." I have three answers from those firms, and I should say that those three firms are the largest in the south of Eng- land, and that they have, I should think, between 360 and 400 respectable young women in their establishments for dressmaking, and the sale of their things in their shops, and so on. Mr. Spearman himself has more than 100; Messrs. Popham and ]{adford have a larger number; they would have between 300 and 400 respectable young women in their establishments. Blr. Spearman writes thus : " Dear Sii-, — In answer to your inquiry, we \\a.\c never known anyone in our employ interfered with in any way by the metropolitan police. The Act under which they labour has, we believe, been of great moral good in this town and neighbourhood. The delicate duties thereof are ably carried out by Mr. Anniss and his men. We have the honour to be, yours very truly, >>j/carmati and Spearman.'" The next is from Messrs. Popham and Radford, a still larger house, and they say : " Dear Sir,— In reply to yours of this date, we have pleasure in stating that, so far as (uir ol)servation has gone, the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts in our district has been entirely beneficial. We have never had brought imder our notice a single in- stance of interi'erence by the metropolitan police with any yoinig woman in our em[)loy. We are, dear fciir, yours very truly, Pophatn, liadf'ord, and Company." Then the other is from Messrs. Spooner and Coiiij)any (this is the son of the lady to whom I referred as being an opponent of the Acts) : " Dear Sir, — In reply to your incjuiry, we know of no case of interference, on the ])art of the metropolitan police, with any young women in our employ, and we believe ^Ir. Anniss and his force conduct their somewhat difficult duty with very great discretion. The efl'cct of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts on working-class women is certainly beneficial, as it deters many from drift- ing into a course they would afterwards regret. We are, yoiu-s faithfully, Spooiiar inal Compani/." Those are the three answers to the letters that I sent to three of our largest houses. 10297. Now, I will take you to some state- ments made by Mr. Shaen on the 6th of July 18S1. In answer to Question 6647, Mr. Shaen, sjjcaking of the voluntary system in your district, stated that the voluntary system was tried by opening a small ward, and that it was " starved in point of accommodation ; " that it was tried at Devonport with 25 beds, but the moment coercion was i)nt in force they had fcnir times as much accommodation ; and he asks if that was a fair trial. Do vou know the circumstances under Chairman — continued. which the thing was tried at Devonj)ort? — I do. 10298. Will you tell us from your knowledge what the circumstances were ? — It was tried at Devon])ort with 25 beds, not a small ward, and for nearly two years those 25 beds were not kept full. In fact, under that system, although there were hundreds of diseased ju'ostitutcs within a mile of the hospital, and some within 300 yards, yet they did not go for treatment, and those that did, in a large number of cases, left the hospital before they wei'e cured. There was no increase ot beds in 1865. 10299. To what hospital were those beds at- tached ? — This was the Lock Hospital, in Dcvon- jjort. 10300. Is that a Government Lock Hospital? —It is to this extent a Government establish- ment, because there is a large grant made to it for the carrying out of these very Acts. 10301. But at that time was it a Government Lock Hospital ? — At that time it may not have been. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 10302. Was it an independent establishment at that time? — It was a local hosj)ital at that time, the Devonport Lock Hospital. 10303. But it was an independent hospital, and not attached to another hospital ? — It was not attached to another hospital at all. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10304. A payment was made on the quarterly certificate of the Commander-in-Chief? — That was subsequently. It was found what a wretched state hundreds of ])rostitutes were in from vene- real disease, so that it was actually forced upon them by the discovery of the wide-spread nature of the malady. 10305. You are speaking now of 1865, before the Act of 1866 came into operation ? — Yes. 10306. Did not the Admiralty contribute to- wards the support of that Devonport Hospital ? — I do not know that it did in 1864-5, when legis- lation began ; I rather think not. I think it became a grant of the Admiralty after the Act of 1865. It may have been in the next year, but I am not quite sure of the date of the first grant. Chairman. 10307. At what period do you speak of the existence and trial of those 25 beds? — In J865. Mr. Stan.-ifeld. 10308. May I draw your attention to the fact that you are answering, as you believe, a state- - moot of Mr. Shaen's, but that Mr. Sliaen's answer V to the question is a quotation i'roni the report of the " speech of Mr. Whitbread in the House of Com- mons ? — Yes, no doubt that is so, but it is quoted by Mr. Shaen. Chairman. 10309. Now I will take you to the subject of public meeting. There appears, in answer to Ques- tion SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 423 13 June 1882.] Mr. LUSCOMBE. \_Coniinued. Chairman — continued, tion 6672, a statement with reference to a large meeting at the Mechanics' Institute at Plymouth on the 8th of June 1870, ^vhich was adjourned to the Temperance Hall at Devonport. On the 10th of June a large meeting was held at the Mechanics' Institute, Plymouth, and resolutions for repeal were carried amidst cheering. Then, in August 1870, a large meeting was held, and a resolution for repeal carried by 2 to 1 ; have you any statement founded upon your own knowledge to make with regard to those meet- ings ? — 1 have actual personal knowledge as to only one of the meetings; I know the others simply from reading the papers, and feeling that general interest in it which makes me read what is being done. That meeting of which I have personal knowledge is the meeting of February 1877. 10310. \Vill you state what you know of the meeting of February 1877 to which you refer? — In February 1877 the opponents of the Acti convened a public meeting in Plymouth and proposed resolutions for repeal, which were lost by a large majority. A week after another meeting was held at the Temperance Hall in Devonport, on the 27th of February 1877, and there was a still more decided defeat. In refer- ence to that meeting, at which I was present, which was called by the opponents of the mea- sure, I seconded an amendment, and to my, I was going to say, surprise (because no attempt had been made to bring the supporters of the .A cts together), there was a very large majority- referred to by the public press as 5 to 1, who rejected the original resolution, and maintained the position which I claimed for the Acts in the town. 10311. From that time to 1880 has there been any meeting ? — From that time to 1880 there has been no meeting. There ij^s been a con- ference once. But that put an end, in fact, I may say, to the opposition in Plymouth ; and I can assure the Committee that, as far as Plymouth people are concerned, they would not know that the Acts were in force in Plymouth but for the occasional complaints made by some of our good friends, the Quakers and others, in regard to the general opposition to the measure, and they see it referred to in other places. 10312. From 1880 to the preserft time there have been no meetings held ' — Xone. 10313. With regard to those earlier meetings, of which you have no personal knowledge (you yourself not having been there), and which are referi'ed to in the evidence of Mr. Shaen. have your any statement to make? — I give the testi- mony gathered from the public jirints; 1870 is the period first referred to by Mr. Shaen in the document which he put in. 10314. It is stated that on the 10th of June 1870 a meeting of men was held at the JMe- chanics' Institute, Plymouth, and that a reso- lution for repeal was carried amidst cheering ; have you any knowledge of that meeting ? — I cannot speak positivelv about that. 10315. Tlien there is another meeting referred to in August 1870; can you say anything about that? — iSo, I cannot. 10316. I now go from these matters, of which 75. Chairman — continued, you do not appear to have any specific know- ledge. You referred a few minutes ago to a meeting in 1881; what were you going to say about that meeting? — That had reference to another point. Speaking of the general belief in the town, the general belief is that these Acts are what I have desci-ibed them, highly favour- able to the cause of morality, and also to the safety of these poor women. I wish to call the attention of the Committee to a report of the Plymouth Female Home, and also to a speech made by a Presbyterian minister, Mr. "Wood, in reference to the great value of these Acts. Here is the report, which I would like the Committee to allow me to put in, showing how the diminu- tion of prostitution has affected the refuge. The re- port speaks of the considerably reduced numbers: "' Having regard, however, to the weighty fact that since the period of the formation of the home the number of fallen women in these towns had diminished by some 75' per cent., and taking into consideration the views of not a few who wished for the union mentioned " (that is to say, the junction of two homes to bring them together), " the committee of the home were led to com- municate with the committee of the sister in- stitution to ascertain whether the laws which had been regarded as forming so serious a barrier to the work, could now be modified."' This book does give important evidence with regard to the question of the diminution of prostitution. I have also a report of a speech made by the Presbyterian minister and other Xonconformist ministers, arising out of the information given in that report. 10317. When -was that home founded? — Twenty-one years ago. This is the 16th annual report, and it is dated in 1877. 10318. Then it would have been founded about the year 1861 ? — Yes ; four years before the Act can be said to have come into play. 10319. And the report speaks of a reduction of 75 per cent, in the number of prostitutes? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. LD320. Was it not in consequence of that re- duction in the number of prostitutes that this Plymouth Female Home was amalgamated with another similar institution ? — I apprehend it to have been so. It was found better to unite the two, because they could be more economically managed. 10321. And also because there were fewer inmates ? — Yes. Chairman. 10322. Are you a member of the committee of the governing body of that house? — I am not. 10323. If there be any jDarticular passage in the speech of the Presbyterian minister to which you wish to refer, will you read it ? — This is from the speech of the Rev. J. Wood, on the loth of iMay 1877 : " They could now as confidently re- commend a woman to take advantage of the penitentiary as of the benefits hitherto granted in the home. Another reason for closing the home was that the number of women available for such institutions had considerably diminished, for, as 3 G 4 the 424 mini;tes of evidencf, takf.n befork the 13 June 18S2.] Mr. LUSCOMBE. \Conlinued. Chairman — continued, the report said, 75 per cent, of those who were on the streets when the home was started had now been removed. This did not show that the evil had been eradicated, but it was a fact that, owing to social and le ou said that their numbers were reduced from 300 to 40; are you prepared to say that at this moment there are no moi'e than 40 clandestine prostitutes in your district?'" to which Mr. Annis's answer was, " Yes." Then Mr. Fowler asked Mr. Wreford, " How do you look at that statement ? " And Mr. Wreford's answer is, " In my opinion there are more clandestine prostitutes than ever I knew in Plymouth, and I have known it for 19 years." Do you agree with Mr. Wreford, or not ? — I think there is more clandestine prostitu- tion than is referred to in the number 40. 10514. Therefore, whether Mr. Wreford is quite accurate or not, you are rather inclined towards his opinion ?— Both may be wrong with regard to clandestine prostitutes. I do not see how they are to arrive at the number with any certainty. Mr. William Fmoler. 10515. But I understood you just now to say that 3^ou considered that the accumulation of young women in shops and places had tended to increase it ? — Yes, it is mischievous. That is a particular growth of the last 20 years. The operations of commerce have led to these estab- lishments, and the gathering together of a large number of young girls. Mr. Stansfeld. 10516. You have said that you approve of the Acts, and so much so that you would extend them ? — Yes. 10517. You would extend them to the whole country ? — I would extend them first to seajjort towns. The permissive powers now granted 0.75. Mr. IStansfeld—contmw&A. through the Board of Trade are perfectly useless. Eight or nine years ago a gentleman was appointed surgeon to the Local Marine Board, and only a few days ago, when I was CQnversino- accidentally with him, I said, " How many have you examined during this time ?" '■ What do you think .'" he said. Well, I could not, of course, imagine. " Two only." In these seven or eight years, during which Mr. Eccles has been the surgeon of the Local Marine Board, only two cases have been brought under his notice, in consequence of the powers being permissive and not compulsory. 10518. In what town is that? — In Plymouth. 10519. What is the power to which you refer? — The permissive power which a captain has, when engaging a crew, to require an examination of his men. 10520. You are not referring to the examina- tion of women at all ?— No. 10521. You would extend these Acts, first of all, to all seaport towns? — Yes. 10522. And what would you do then? — My belief is that if the Acts were extended to the seaport towns with the same results as we have in Plymouth, Parliament would very soon give the same power to inland districts. 10523. Therefore you would really advocate an extension of the Acts to the whole of the country ? — I would; I see no otlier conclusion to come to. 10524. With regard to the reclamation of girls, or the saving of girls from falling into a life of prostitution, you would not be prepared to say that the Acts are necessary for those purposes ? — Not for those causes alone. 10525. You can conceive, no doubt, of other legislation which would be less objectionable to some of us, and which would effect these purposes as well as you believe the Acts have effected them ? — I am not sure of that. 10526. Do you think that it is impossible, by any legislation and police power to be given by legislation, to save as many girls, and to reclaim as many girls as are saved and reclaimed in con- sequence of this system of fortnightly examina- tion ■? — I would not necessarily connect the two subjects. 10527. Supposing that you had the Contagious Diseases Acts, but that you omitted the fort- nightly examination, you might have as many reclamations and as many warnings of girls, might you not ? — Yes, but you would have an imperfect condition of health in the town. 10528. That is another question; I was speak- ing, not of health, but of reclamations and the saving of girls; and I understand you to say that if our only object were to prevent girls from fall- ing into a life of prostitution, or to save them from it, it is not necessary to resort to such an expedient as the Contagious Diseases Acts for that purpose ? — Quite so. 10529. You referred, I think, to Mr. Cooper's evidence, at Question 3806, to the effect that women were driven through the streets to the examination room, and you denied the accuracy of Mr. Cooper's statement ? — I disbelieved it. 10530. Mr. Cooper states distinctly that he has seen it; you would not, I presume, always be 3 I necessarily 431 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 13 June 1882.] Mr. LUSCOMBE. \_Conlinu€(l. Mr. S/ftHA/cW — continued, necfissarilv, or even very tVciiucutly, on the line traversed by tliese women on tlieir way from the town to the examination room ? — No, not neces- sarily. l()j;n. Have tliey to pass through any portion of the town of Plynioutli? — Throiij^h the streets, between tiicir dwellings and the phice of exami- nation. 10532. Their dwellings may be on the other side of the town from the examination room? — They may be. 10533. And, therefore, it is conceivable and likely that a considerable proportion of these women would have to traverse those streets on their way to the examination room? — No. 10534. Are you pre])ared to say that they have never traversed tlie streets for tliat purpose with a policeman in their ecompany ? — I will not say that they have not traversed the streets with a policeman in their company by mere accident, but I deny altogether the statement made there that they go en masse, with a policeman before and a policeman behind, as if they were pri- soners. 10535. You have never seen them going in that way, led by a policeman and followed by a policeman ? — No, never, nor ever heard of such a thing. 10536. But still you are not prepared to say that Mr. Cooper's testimony upon that subject is untrue ?— I entirely disbelieve it. 10537. Do you believe that it is untruthful testimony?—! do believe that it is untruthful testimony, because he has, to my own personal knowledge, made charges against myself which I call absolute untruths. 10538. Then you believe that this statement of Mr. Cooper's as to what he saw is an untruth- ful statement ? — I do believe It is an untruth. 10539. In answer to Question 7049, which was put to Mr. Shaen by the Judge Advocate General, he refers to the charge against In- spector Anniss in October 1876 by Miss Murton ; is that the young lady to whom you referred ? — Yes, that was about the time it took place. 10540. Have you been under the impression that the view brought before the Committee by Mr. Sliaen was that Inspector Anniss was rightly accused in that case? — I do not know the evi- dence sufEciently to speak to that. 10541. I want to draw your attention to Mr. Shaen's statement, in answer to Question 7048, which is this : " In connection with the subject of abuse of administration, it is very important to observe that all the action of the police is taken out of uniform." Then the Judge Advo- cate General says, " Not in Aldershot ? " And Mr. Shaen's answer is, " Except Aldershot, then ; I was not aware of that. The absence of such uniform leads to important consequences, some of which are of veiy serious practical im- portance. The most important eSect is that it facilitates personation, of which there have been several cases." And then he gives this as a case of personation ; were you aware of that? — 1 was not. 10542. Therefore, you see that there was no attack upon Mr. Anniss, but it was treated as a case of personation? — Yes ; I should have thought Mr. Stansfelfl — continued. so too, if any inquiry had been made so as to free jNIr. Anniss from tiie ciiarge. 10543. 1 am speaking of the evidence of Mr. Shaen ; and you see clearly, do you not, that the case was put forward by Mr. Shaen as a case of personation ? — Yes. I\Ir. Bulwcr. 10544. You, I understand, were one of the magistrates who investigated that case ? — I was present througiiout the inquiry. 10545. Was there any proof given before you, beyond the girl's statements, that she had been spoken to by anybody ? — No. 10546. Was there any evidence, still less any proof, that it was a case of personation? — No; slie adiiered to her statement from the first. 10547. Where was the girl living at the time? — In a street called Cornwall-street, in the em- ploy of a draper or silk mercer. 10548. What was his name; was it Littleton? — No ; he is the man who lived at Devonport. This is in Plymouth. I have forgotten the name of the man ; but he is no longer tliere. 10549. Was the name of Littleton mixed up with that case ? — Undoubtedly ; she appealed to Mr. Littleton. That is wiiat I meant l)y the word " plant," which was rather drawn from me. When she says that Mr. Anniss spoke to her, and that she was insulted by him, instead of taking any other course of trying to find out whether she is accurate or not in her view, she goes at once to Mr. Littleton, an opponent of the Acts, and the prosecution begins at once. 10550. Was that Mr. Littleton, of Devonport, or his son ? — I believe that Mr. Littleton, oi' Devonport, is dead now. 1055 1 . Do you remember a person of the name of Littleton being before the magistrates and making an admission that he had signed the name of William Glasson? — I do not remember that that was in Plymouth ; I think that must have been in Devonport. 10552. Not in this case of Miss Murton? — No, I think not. 10553. First of all, your impression was that this woman had deliberately said what was false ? — She persisted in it so positively that I had that impression. 10554. You have now given her the benefit of any doubt upon your mind, and suggest that she might have been misled ? — Yes. 10555. With reference to the mode of proce- dure, where informations are laid against brothels, is it not the case within your jurisdiction that, taking the case of a brothel which it is desired to put down, it is necessarily ordinarily that a com- plaint should be made by some householder? — That is not customary with us. It is such an offensive thing that persons recoil from it. 10556. But, however, some one gives informa- tion to the board of guardians, or to some public body, and they take proceedings against the brothel-keeper ? — Yes. 10557. Is it the usual course at Plymouth that the head of the police, the chief constable, I presume, would, in the ordinary nature of things, be bound over to prosecute and to marshal the evidence, and to appear before the magistrates at SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 435 13 June 1882.] Mr. LuscOMBE. \^Continued. Mr. Buhver — continued, at sessions? — I apprehend that the prosecu- tion of the case is in the hands of ihe clerk to the guardians. 10558. But is it not usual in Plymouth, as it is in places with which I am familiar, that the head of the police, the chief constable, is the official whose name is ordinarily made use of m these proceedings ?— Where cases come solely before the magistrates, where the magistrates deal summarily with them, that may be the case, but there are some cases that come before them and that are sent to the recorder at sessions. Mr. Osburne Morgan. 10559. Then there must be an information, I suppose ? — -Yes. Mr. Bulioer. 10560. Depositions are taken? — Yes. 10561. Of course there must be a prosecutor named in the proceedings, and you say that private people do not like to have their names mixed up with these cases? — No, they object to become " informers," as they call it. 10562. And there is no objection, that I am aware of, to one of the metropolitan police being named as prosecutor any more than the chief constable ? — -No. Mr. William Fowler. 10563. You said, as 1 understood you, that while you were in favour of the extension of this system, on the whole you were perfectly willing to admit that there was no necessary connection between the moral influences of reclamation and such like, and the question of compulsory fort- nightly examination ? — I can believe that other agencies than the Acts might be brought into pJay for the purpose of reclaiming the women. 10564. That is to say, that you might have an Act of Parliament which would not have that peculiar sting in it, and which, at the same time, might deal with this question in some other way, which would be very beneficial to the community. I suppose you consider that the benefit of this examination has been a physical benefit ? — Not only so ; that I look upon as a necessity. 10565. A necessity from what point of view ? — From the point of view of the danger which society has to bear. 10.566. A physical danger ? — A physical dan- ger and a moral danger too, and a family danger. There are ten thousand dangers involved in the question. 10567. That is to say, so long as men indulge in this kind of vice you think it necessary to have them protected ? — I have no sympathy with them on that account. 10568. You say that the examination is essen- tial ; but if this vice is not necessary, is the exa- mination necessary ? If men can escape from all these evil consequences of their conduct, why should they not escape those evil consequences without the aid of the State ? — I think there is a great distincticm to be drawn between the ques- tion afi'ecting prostitutes and the other question of reclaiming young women who have been re- ferred to as drifting into crime. 0.75. Mr. William Foioler — continued. 10569. But, you see, we are dealing here with the Contagious Diseases Acts, and that is an Act for dealing with prostitutes ? — I have said in my evidence that I believe that there is a de- terrent quality in the Acts which has been usefnl in lessening prostitution. 10570. But when you answered me just now you spoke of the examination as a necessity ? — — Yes, I view it so. 10571. But I did not quite understand why ? — You endeavoured to put into my mind that it was for the sake of men ; but I would not do it, simply for the protection of men, because my own feeling would be to make the men as respon- sible as the women, if it can be done ; but I know the different position of men and women in the affair, and therefore what may be possible with regard to the one is not very possible with regard to the other. I think you may legislate for women under the circumstances that you have legislated for them ; but I very much question if you would bring legislation into operation for the examination of men under the circumstances, simply that the woman is in a totally different position from the man. She is a voluntary agent in this matter ; it Is a professional occupation. 10572. Her profession would fall through if the men did not demand this indulgence? — It- would. 10573. I want to get at the bottom of the thing. You say that this is necessary ; but, as I understand you. It is necessary for the pro- tection of society? — Yes. 10574. Because men will do that which you do not regard as necessary ? — No. 10575. But which is a foolish, and from a higher point of view, a very evil practice? — Yes. 10576. Yet at the same time you wish to bring in the State to clean up these people for the men; that is the difficulty which occurs to many of our minds, and I wanted to know if it did not occur to yours ? — I have thought a great deal about it. 10577. You seem to think that this evil cannot be dealt with in any other way except by a system of examination ; but I do not get hold of your thought when you spoke of examination as necessary. You do not seem to have Investigated the question whether any other plan could be adopted? — I never heard or read of anything which would be equally effective. 10578. You say that it Is effective in some senses; you speak of the improvement in the external conduct of the women, and so on ; but at the same time you admit that the vice in the town Is very considerable still, though It goes on in a more apjjarently quiet and orderly manner. You have not put down vice by this proceeding ; you have made the vice more seemly, have you not ? — Vice has been lessened. 10579. But I understood you to say that you were rather doubtful upon that point ? — As re- gards young girls, what you call clandestine prostitutes, I am doubtful about that. 10580. Then that Is a point of great difficulty, because the amount of that clandestine prosti- tution, from the necessity of the case, cannot be proved, and yet at the same time, in the oi)inion of the police who are constantly moving about 3 12 the 436 MINUTES OF EVIDENCK TAKEN BEFORE THE 13 June 1882.] Mr. LuscoMBE. [ Continued. Mr. IVilliam Fowler — continued, tlie town, it is greatly increased, and they, I siiji- pose, would know more ujion that point than you could know ? — I am not sure about that ; I am sorry to say that when I was here last Sunday evening I saw between tlie Strand and the Me- tropolitan Station at Charinc; Cross, about a quarter to nine, what was not possible in our town, a concourse of little girls of 11, 12, 14 and 15 years of age in that street leading up to the Strand, on the eastern side of the Charing Cross Hotel. I was liorrified at the sight of so much licentious and disorderly conduct with youths of of their own age. 10581. But are you not aware that that arises from defective police action ? — I saw two or three policemen, to my great surprise, taking no notice of this horrible scene. 10582. You admitted, I think, that all this great change that had taken place was, in point of date, subsequent to the Contagious Diseases Acts ; but still that the metropolitan police are not the people who have to put down disorder in the streets ? — No. 10583. All their duty is to take care that these women are duly examined ? — Xot only that ; that is one of their duties. 10584. That is their only duty under the Act, is it not ? — We can find many other things that they do. 10585. From their kindliness of feeling, they do more ; but it is not laid down by the Act of Parliament ; therefore, in point of fact, this curing of disorder is a question of police, and not of the fortnightly examination; is not that so? — I should think that it is more a medical question than a question for me. 10586. You seem to be aware that the change in the condition of the town is really more a question of police, in the ordinary sense of the word, than anything else? — Undoubtedly, it is a question of police. 10587. Therefore, what I want to find out is whether we cannot hit upon some plan which will be less objectionable than this is to the minds of many people who do not like the idea of cleaning up the women for men ? — I should have declined to come before the Committee if I could have ventured to decline, if 1 could have supposed that it would be part of my duty to point out any method by which the Acts could be superseded. 10588. But if you give an opinion in favour of them, we should like to investigate what the grounds of that opinion are ? — The grounds upon which I form a favourable opinion are the dimi- nution in the number of brothels, and also the diminution in the number of prostitutes ; and I know very well that as 300 brothels were in existence, they must have had youthful servants in them, and they became prostitutes in the end. So far, prostitution is lessened in that particular direction. Of course, I am not able to speak of what the returns of health may be generally, because that is a medical question : but I take it that there must be improved health generally. 10589- And yet we have an opinion from you, that this shutting up of the brothels has not been brouo-ht about by the action of the metropolitan police in the main ? — In a great degree it has. I\Ir. Willmvi Fowler — continued. 10590. Then you differ from your own police- men ? — I cannot help that. 10591. At any rate, the ordinary po'icc are, under the Act of Parliament, the agents for shutting up the brothels ? — Practically it is not so. 10592. The information, you say, comes in some degree Irom the metropolitan police, but it also comes from private persons, does it not? — Yes, now and then it does ; and then the disorderly conduct and drunkenness that may take place come under our police. 10593. We have had evidence that a large number of brothels were shut up under Licensing Acts, because they were disorderly houses ? — Yes. 10594. And that has nothing whatever to do with the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — No. 10595. Therefore it is evident that a large part of this diminution has arisen from the atten- tion of the public being called to the question, and from a determination to have better order maintained? — It happens to be coincident with it ; it dates from 1864-65. 10596. You are ycry well aware, no doubt, that post hoc is not always propter hoc. I think you have pretty much admitted that that may be the case in this instance. There is no doubt at all that many causes led to a great consideration of this question at that time. Are you not aware also that there have been great changes in the management of the Army with regard to cleanliness in barracks, and a iireatcr amount of amusements and recreations for the soldiers, and mnch greater regard for their comfort in every way ; so that their lives have become more wholesome, and humane, and human than they were ? — Yes, there is a great diminution of dis- ease amongst soldiers and sailors. 10597. That does not arise merely from Acts of Pai-liamcnt, but also from better regulations? • — Mainly, I believe, it arises from these Acts. 10598. That is a question of great dispute, as you are aware ; I do not know whether you know that the Report of 1871 said that there was no evidence of a /lecrease of disease by reason of the fortnightly examination; perhaps you have not read that? — I do not remember that. Dr. Farijuharson. 10599. I suppose you will admit that the fortnightly examinations are connected with the hygienic aspects of the case, rather than with the police aspects? — Yes. 10600. And you are also aware that the medical faculty almost universally consider these fort- nightly examinations absolutely essential, hygi- enically ? — Yes. 10601. ^Vith regard to the hospital accommo- dation, it was tried at first with 25 beds, and those beds were never full ? — Y^es. 10602. Can you tell us the number? — No, I cannot tell you the number. The hospital is not in my town, and I have not attended much to it. 10603. Were the beds never full because there was not money to keep them up ? — 'fhe funds were not available for carrying on the hospital at that SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. ' 437 13 June 1882.'] Mr. Luscombe. [Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued Dr. Farquharson — continued, that time. It was the absence of the power to dation ? — It was nothing of the kind. It may- compel those women who were diseased outside have been difficult to carry it on for want of to go into it. funds before the Government made that grant. 10604. In other words, there were not enough 10606. But there was ample accommodation? patients to fill the beds? — At that time there — Quite. were not. 10607. It was stated that when coercion was 10605. Therefore, it was hardly perhaps a applied, they had four times as much accommo- strictly accurate way of putting it to say that dation ; do you know that after that time the the experiment was starved in point of accommo- beds were filled ? — No. 0.75. 3 13 438 MIXUTKS OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Friday, \ 6th June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT ; Mr. Ciivendish Bentinck. Mr. Burf:. Colonel Digby. Dr. Farquharson, Mr. William Fowler. iMr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Sbaugbnessy. Mr. Stausfeld.! Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Chair. Inspector Silas Rendel Anniss, re-called ; and furtbcr Examined. JNIr. Oshoriie Morgan, 10608. You have, I believe, read tlie evi- dence of several witnesses, j\Ir. Shaen, and others, which is directed, more or less, to contradicting the evidence which you gave before this Com- mittee on a previous occasion ? — Yes. 10609. I will refer you first of all to Mr. Shaen's evidence at Question 7025, and the an- swer to it. I observe that Mr. Shaen states th.at the Contagious Diseases Acts' police were power- less to close brothels, and that, in fact, brothels are not closed under the Acts. I may extract that from a somewhat long answer ; can you state the number of brothels which have been closed in the Plymouth and Devonport district since the Act came into operation ? — Yes ; tiie number closed since the 1st of April 1865 is 592. 10610. Would that represent about the time when the first Contagious Diseases Act came into operation ? — Yes. 10611. Mr. Sf.ansfeld. Before the first existing Act ? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10612. Of course that merely shows that they have been closed since the Acts came into opera- tion ; but can you in any way connect that closing with the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and if so, how ? — The emptying of these houses by taking the prostitutes to the hospitals has been the primary cause of all this closing. 10613. Then, in fact, you put it in this way ; that by reducing the number of inmates you ne- cessarily reduce the number of houses which are kept up by the profession of tliose inmates? — Just so. 10614. That is your explanation of the fact, which 1 suppose is undoubted, that since the Contagious Diseases Acts came into operation a number of those houses have been closed ? — Yes. 10615. In that same answer Mr. Shaen says that the constant system of espionage adopted was of a nature calculated to bring disgrace and ruin upon a well-conducted house. Then im- mediately .afterwards he refers to the treatment experienced by a man of the name of Turner to which you refer ; is it a fact that these Acts are Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, calculated to bring disgrace and ruin upon a well-conducted house ?— It is entirely a misun- derstanding of the operation of the Acts. In the first place, no respectable house is in any way watched; we have no necessity to do so; and with regard to Turner's house, it was a notorious brothel, and therefore it cannot be a good illus- tration of a well-conducted house. 10616. Had Turner been cautioned before? — He had been cautioned repeatedly. In the first place immediately after Charles Turner obtained his j)ension I called upon him and told him that his M'ife had been conducting the house as a brothel, as he was then a pensioner, he had better at once alter his mode of conducting the house or give it up. Subquently he was found to have harboured a diseased prostittite ; he was reported to the Admiral Commanding in Chief, and he was then again cautioned. Having dis- regarded that caution, the house was placed out of bounds, and his pension was stopped. 10617. Do you say that Turner had been cau- tioned for harbouring and concealing girls for the purjiose of prostitution ? — He had been cau- tioned for harbouring a deceased prostitute, for harbouring young girls, and for making them prostitutes, and also for harbouring boys. 10618. It was after these steps had been taken, as I understand you, that the further step of t.aking away his pension and afterwards of pro- secuting him was taken ; is that so ? — It is. I would like to say that, before I reported him, I sent for him to come to my office, and saw him there personally with his wife. 10619. Then, as I understand you, you your- self gave him that caution to which you have already referred ; is that so ? — It is. 10620. Will you be so good as to tell me whether any well-conducted house or well-con- ducted person has been disgraced, or ruined, or interferred with in any way imder the Acts since they came into operation ? — Not in any way or degree. 10621. You are prepared to state that, and to challenge contradiction? — Yes, I am so far as my district is concerned. I would say further, that respectable people are really protected so far as it is possible for the police to do it. 10622. I gather from what you have stated, that SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 439 16 June 1882.] Inspector Axxiss. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, that the taklns; away of this man's pension was a kind of rod that you held over his head with a view of compelling him to give up the keeping of a brothel, and which instrument eventually you put into operation against him, and so pun- ished him for keeping a brothel ? — Yes, after he had disregarded all cautions and warnings, that step was taken. 10623. And your power of complaining to the Admiralty which you exercised was one of the means which you derived from your jjosition as Inspector under the Contagious Diseases Acts, of, at any rate, punishing him for keeping a brothel, and of compelliag him to give it up ; is that so? — It is. 10624. I will take you back to Question 6895, where Mr. Stansfeld asked Mr. Shaen this : " Xow we will pass to the work of rescue ?" and Mr. Shaen replies : '•' Yes, with regard to the work of rescue, my attention has been called to the evidence of the Reverend Prebendary TVilkinson. He referred to the rescue work of Miss Elhce Hopkins, of Plymouth, and Inspector Anniss takes credit for the cases of reclamation and reformation in which Miss Hopkins was pre- sumably concerned. Is it the fact that you have taken credit for cases of reformation to which you are not entitled? — It is entirely and posi- tively incorrect. 10625. Have you ever taken credit for cases of reclamation to which j-ou are not entitled ? — Xot in any way. I simply register the facts as I find them. If a girl is sent to a home, or is sent to her friends, or is removed from the register from any cause, I simply enter the facts, and they are compiled in the weekly, quarterly, and annual returns. 10626. You register the facts and you do not record anything beyond what appears upon ihe face of the facts which you register ? — That is so. 10627. In answer to Question 6941, Mr. Shaen speaks of the case of Harriett Hicks, a case which occurred nearly 12 years ago at the Devonjjort station ; will you tell me who this Harriett Hicks was ? — She came into Plymouth from Falmouth, either in 1868 or 1869, and was brought on the register. 10b28. In what way was she brought on the register ? — By voluntary submission. 10629. Do you remember her signing her first ■voluntary submission form ? — Y'es, perfectly well. She was a common prostitute, li\ing in one of the very lowest streets. 10630. Mr. Shaen says that she swore that you knew that she was a kept woman, and that she had told you so several times ; as a matter of fact, was she a kept woman? — She was never a kept woman. It was quite the contrary ; there was a lazy fellow that she actually kept by her pros- titution. 10631. Of course, therefore, she was a com- mon prostitute ? — Yes, to all intents and pur- poses she was. 10632. When Mr. Shaen says that Hicks was kept by a man named Simmonds. and that she had several children by him, that, as I under- stand you, is not the fact ? — So far as I know, there were no children ; at any rate, I knew the 0.75. Mr. Oslorne Morgan — continued, fellow used to hang about the lanes at the time waiting for the money that she would get. 10633. Is it true that so far from Hicks bemg kept by a man, the man was kept by her ? — The man was kept by her. Mr. Stansfeld. 10634. Do you know that she had no children by him ? — It is the first I have heard of any children. Chairman. 10635. You know this woman ?- -Y( Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10636. Mr. Shaen says that she swore she never signed any paper until after she had been examined several times; is that a fact? — It is entirely untrue. She signed the voluntary sub- mission before she saw the visiting surgeon who examined her. 10637. Did you hear the proceedings before the magistrates ? — I was not in the court when the case came before the magistrates ; I was out of the district at the time, so that I do not know what was said in court. 10638. But you state that as a matter of fact before she was examined she signed the submis- sion paper ? — She signed her first submission paper on the 12th of January 1869. 10639. Before that time she had not been examined ? — Before that time she had not been examined, and she had never seen the visiting surgeon. 10640. Mr. Shaen says she swore that you knew that she was a kept woman ; you say that you did not know what she swore ? — I was not in court, and I never heard of it; but imme- diately I came back I went to the superinten- dent and complained that the case had, by some means, slipped through our hands, knowing, as I did, the character of the woman. 10641. You have stated that she was not a kept woman ; had she ever told you that she was a kept woman? — No, never. 10642. She went on to say that on going into hospital you made her put an " X " in a book, but did not explain what it was for ; is that true ? — It is literally untrue. I never allow any woman to siga a submission before I have gone thoroughly into the details of the Act, and made her understand thoroughly how she can be removed at any time when she gives up a life of prostitution. A case has never passed my hands otherwise. Mr. Stansfeld. 10643. TThat is this " X " in a book; that is not the voluntary submission, is it ? — There never was a book. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10644. Could she write? — Xo, she makes a mark, I find. 10645. She states that you, on her going into hospital, made her put an "X" in a book : did yon ever make her put anything in a book? — In the first place I never have a book for any woman to sign ; it is simply 3 14 printed 440 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. [ Continued. i\[r. Osborne Morgan — continued, jirinted form. There is the first submission form that she signed {producim/ it), and these sub- mission are always tiie same in form. 10fi46. Woukl the visiting surgeon have examined her unless she had signed this voluntary submission ? — Certainly not. Our visiting surgeons in every case inquire whether the woman has signed, and further, whether the Act has been explained to her ; they arc most particidar; and at that time they were equally particular to inquire into each woman's character, and how Kmg she had led a life of jirostitution, andwiietlier she understood what she had signed. 10G47. You are speaking now of your own knowledge? — Quite so. 10648. So that, according to the rules which the visiting surgeon observes, assuming that he did his duty, it would have been impossible for her to be "examined without having first signed that submission? — I am quite sure that it would be im])0ssible. I know she had signed, but I know that neither of our visiting surgeons would ever allow a womam to pass without questioning her. 10649. j\Ir. Shaen states that she said that, although believing herself illegally detained, she had no knowledge from the authorities that she could api)ly for relief; is it possible that she could have been without that knowledge? — It is not possible. She had been three times in the hospital ; she had signed at least three, and I presume, four submissions. She had once been i-emoved from the register by myself. Chairman. 10650. On her application ? — On her ajjplica- tion. After her first discharge from the hospital she discontinued the miserable life that she was leading for a time, and her name had been re- moved from the register. Mr. Osborne Morr/an. 10651. Could you give us ihe date of that removal ? — It was early in the year ; I have not the date by me, but 1 know it as a matter of fact. 10652. Could you tell us how long she was on the register? — It was a very little time, two or three months, I think ; and I think in the mean- time she went to Falmouth, but I am only speaking from memory. 10653. ISlr. Shacn states that the magistrates decided that the woman was entitled to her dis- charge ; do you recollect that '. — I was not in court. As a matter of fact, slie was discharged. 10654. "Was she put on the register again after that? — No, she left the district. She told me herself that she should go to Falmouth, and so far as I know, she went tiiei-e. 10655. But you do not know what she went there for? — No, I do not. 10656. In the first part of Mr. Shaen's answer to Question 7029, he speaks of Turner's case, and he goes on to say : " I mentioned some time ago that the association had a small "Refuge in Plymouth, and it was looked after by the agent of the association. John Miirshall and his vvife." You know Mr. John Marshall, I sup- pose ? — Yes, I know him. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 10657. Mr. Shaen says: "On the 25th of January 1872, Mr. INIarshall applied to the local magistrates for protection against the illegal intrusion of Anniss' men. They had upon former occasions thrust themselves into his house. He was then going to leave, and his wife was afraid, and asked him to see if he could not get her some protection. Mr. Marshall accordingly ap- plied to Mr. Phillips, the magistrate's clerk, and the clerk rcjlicd that the magistrates could not intei-fere ; that if he had any complaint to make, it must be made to Scotland Yard." He was then asked if that was a case of forcible entry, and he said that it was " a case of forcible entry into a private house." Will you be kind enough to state w^ietlier you have any remark to make upon that ease ? — I know the magistrates and the magistrate's clerk well, and I never heard that such an application was made, in the first place, although it may have been. Secondly, there never was a forcible entry into John I^Iarshall'.s house. 10658. "Was there any entry ? — It was well known that Mar.shall had been harbouring dis- eased prostitutes in his house, when they should have gone to the hospital ; and I directed a Serjeant to keep observation, and he saw a dis- eased prostitute go into the house, and followed her in, called her by name, and took her into custody and conveyed her to the hospital. That was the only occasion. The Serjeant simply went to the door; the passage door was open, and although the man Marshall tried to prevent her going, the woman walked quietly away with the Serjeant. Chairman. 10659. When you said that Mr. Marshall was harbouring diseased prostitutes, you do not mean that he was harbouring them for the purposes of prostitution ? — No, I do not mean that. To prevent their ^oing to the hospital he used to persuade them to go to his house. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10660. As a matter of fact, was that prostitute found diseased ? — She was diseased, and had been ordered to the hospital ; she had a cer- tificate of disease in her pocket. 10661. This was a woman who had been actu- ally certified as diseased, and was, therefore, of course liable to be sent to the hospital, and it was in fact part of the duty of your men to take her to the hospital ? — It was the Serjeant's duty to apprehend her if she failed to go. These women are, I regret to say, allowed to go by themselves, but if they fail to do so, it is according to the Act of Parliament the duty of the police to ap- prehend them and take them to the hosjiital; and this was the case which happened. That was the only case that ever happened, and I i^resume that that is the case referred to. 10662. This woman had been found diseased, and had been certified as diseased, and she was therefore liable to be sent to the hosjjital, was she not ? — Quite so. 10663. So that in apprehending her and taking her to the hospital, 1 ])resume that the police were only acting in the discharge of their duties under the Contagious Diseases Acts ; was that so ? — Quite so. But the Serjeant never went into SELECT C03IMITTE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 441 16 June 1882.] Inspector ANJfiss. \_Contbiued. Mr. Osborne il/or^a?i— continued, into the house in tins case, and that was the only case. He stood at the door, and called the girl by name; and though Marshall stood in the pas- sage and tried to prevent her leaving, the girl said, "No, I must go ;" and she M'ent with the sergeant. 10664. Then, in fact, there was no resistance on the part of the girl ? — No, not the slightest; she came voluntarilj', and I presume walked along by herself, as others are allowed to walk by them- selves. We do not take them into custody. This man was employed for 11 years; he made it his boast that he had been employed to get up cases against the police to find an illegal act ; and surely the pohce would not go to his house to commit an act of that sort. ] 0665. You have given the explanation that this woman had been certified to be diseased, and was, therefore, liable to be taken to hospital, and one of your officers went to Mr. Marshall's house and did not take her into custody, or apprehend her, but took her voluntarily to the hospital ? — That was so. There could be no other case. The man was in the district for nearly 10 years after- wards ; I hope that from that time he took care not to have diseased prostitutes there. After that we never found them. There have been other cases which have come from his house and gone into the hospital, but not of being taken in by him after being found diseased. Chairman. 10666. Were you this policeman's supei'ior at the time ? — I was the inspector ; he was the ser- geant employed under me. 10667. Did you receive any representation or notice from Scotland Yard with regard to the matter complained of by Mr. Marshall ? — Never. 10668. You have no reason to believe that he took the advice of the magistrates, and applied to Scotland Yard ? — The first I ever heanl of it was on reading the evidence ; I am very friendly with the magistrate's clerk, Mr. Phillips, and think he would have told me. 10669. But you have no reason to believe that Mr. Marshall ever made any application to Scot- land Yard in the matter ? — Certainly not, or I should have heard of it. Mr. Cavendish Bndincli. 10670. Do you know whether he applied to the clerk of the local magistrates for protection ? — I do not know whether he did or not ; but it occurs to me that if he had, Mr. Phillips would have sent to me and informed me of the fact. Mr. Osliorne Morgan. 10671. At any rate, no communication was made to you by the local magistrates, or by their clerk, or from Scotland Yard ? — None whatever ; the first I knew of it was on reading the evi- dence. 10672. Now let me take you to the Appendix to Mr. Shaen's Evidence, on page 476. It is stated there that on the " 3rd of August 1870, three women were arrested by warrant, and taken to Plymouth Police Court ; the police and the Admiralty solicitor were there to pi-osecute. Mr. D. Cooper, of the Rescue Society, finding the cases were to be heard in closed court, asked 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, the mayor if he might be present if the women assented to it. The mayor repHed, ' Certainly not.' Mr. Cooper then asked if he might pro- vide the services of a solicitor ; the mayor said, \ No, certainly not. The request was most irregular.' " Were you present at that time ?— I was. 10673. Will you tell us what occurred on that occasion ? — There were three women summoned ; all three old prostitutes. 10674. Were they arrested by warrant? — There were no women arrested on that day. They were summoned, in order to bring them under the Acts. They had refused to sign the voluntary submission, although they had all been on the books before. They had been discharged from hospital, and therefore it was necessary that they should sign again or be brought before the magistrates. At that time Mr. Cooper was very busy, and he had got hold of these three women, and advised them not to sign. 10675. How do you know that? — The women told me so themselves. They were open and candid about it. 10676. They made no secret of the fact, I suppose, that Mr. Cooper considered it his mission to tell them not to sign ? — They did not. 10677. And, as a matter of fact, they did refuse, and as you believe in consequence of Mr. Daniel Cooper's advice ? — They did refuse, and through his advice. 10678. Having refused to sign a voluntary submission form under the advice of Mr. Cooper, they were summoned before the magis- trates, which, of course, was the next legal step. What took place there ? — I was present, and Mr. Cooper was there with a female, a person who went by the name of King, in our dis- trict, and I heard them advise these women to ask for an open court. One of them, named Sullivan, a very dressy woman, with plenty of money and fine clothes, said, " I am- not going to be exposed ; I shall have the court closed." They had employed a solicitor to defend her, and they were rather angry because she would not have the court open. This occurred outside the court. The women went in, and Mr. Eastlake was present. I suggested, as I always do in these cases, that the court should be closed ; and the women were asked, and they said distinctly that they would have the court closed. I remember the circumstances well, because these people were giving us some trouble just then. Mr. Cooper then asked if he should be allowed to be in court as their friend, and I think Mr. Luscombe, at any rate one of the magistrates, said they doubted his friendship, and he could not be allowed in court. I am not sure whether it was Mr. Luscombe, but I rather think it was ; at any rate, it was one of the magistrates who remarked that. Mr. Stansfeld. 10679. Was it the mayor? — I am not sure. I think Mr. Luscombe, at that time, was mayor. Chairman. 10680. AVas that after the women had ex- pressed formally in court their wish that the court should be closed ? — It was, and all the 3 K other 442 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKK.V BEFOUE THE 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. yCoittinued. Chairman — continued, other people had left tlie court, and jMr. Cooper remained with his lady friend. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10681. Then I understand that Mr. Cooper was shut out ? — Yes, he was shut out with some difticulty. 10682. Mr. Cooper is not a solicitor, is lie ? — I never heard that he was. 10G83. Had they a solicitor? — They had a solicitor, Mr. liobert Edmunds, the most able solicitor that we have, certainly. I think he Mr. Osborne Mortjan — continued, said he would never take anotiier case of the sort. At any rate he was the soliciror. l06»-i. Of course he was allowed to be in court? — Yes, certainly. 10685. You are not a lawyer, but I Suppose you know that wheii the court is closed the only persons allowed to be in court are the parties to the case, the witnesses, and the legal advisers? — Yes. lOGSG. And not being one of those persons Mr. Cooper was rightly excluded ? — Yes, he was excluded. Mr. Daniel Cooper, re-called ; and further Examined. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10687. As a matter of fact, I think you wish to state that it was not you who employed a solicitor, but that these people had employed a solicitor of their own accord? — A solicitor, I believe, was employed, and I made a request to the magistrates through Mr. Phillips, the clerk, to he allowed to remain as befriending these girls, and as being desirous to get them into homes. 1 was answei'ed in the most abrupt way possible, " No." 10688. You are not a solicitor yourself, are you? — I am' not a solicitor, but I have been present generally at courts where I have ap- peared on behalf of women. 10689. (To Inspector Aniriss.) Then, this statement of Mr. IShaen's, I suppose, is incorrect. " Mr. Cooper then asked if he might pi'ovide the Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, services of a solicitor. The Mayor said : ' No, certainly not. The request was most irregular.'" It is common ground, both to yourself and Mr. Cooper, I understand, that that request was not made ? — Mr. Cooper had employed a solicitor before this. . I heard him say so himself in court. (Mr. Ci'oper.) I should like to be allowed to contradict that most distinctly. Chairman. 10G90. Is it not true that you employed a solicitor on that occasion ? — I distinctly deny employing a solicitor, and I deny being any- where near Inspector Anniss so that he could hear anything that I said to the women, or any reference to a solicitor. Inspector Silas Rendel Anniss, re-called ; and further Examined. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10691. It is not the case, is it, that the Mayor ?aid : " No, certainly not. The request was most irregular " ? — I do not remember any such words. I was in court, and in the lobby, when I heard what I have expressed here in evi- dence. 10692. The next paragraph is: "5th August 1870, at Stonehouse Police Court, Admiral Lowe in the chair, Catherine Pickles applied to be relieved liom the Acts. She declared on oath, as did her mother, that she was driven by the Acts to prostitution. The Admiralty solicitor, and four police officers appeared against her. Although Mr. Daniol Cooper was in court, and offered to take the girl right away to one of the homes of the Rescue Society, the magistrates ordered her to submit to one more examination first. The girl was at once taken from Plymouth by her friends." You have heard that, and you remember, I suppose, the case of Catherine Pickles? — Yes, I do, very well. 10693. "Was she a prostitute.^— She was. 10694. Is it the fact that she had attended regularly for medical examination ? — She had attended two or three times, and had been in hospital about 35 days. On her discharge from hospital, her name was removed from the register, and she was sent to her friends, her mother. A Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, short time afterwards she was found drunk in Plymouth, and was locked up, and sent to prison for a week. On her leaving prison, she went direct to a brothel in another i)art of the town, in Dummerland Place, Plymouth, and was brought under the Acts again in the usual way. This girl was got hold of by Mr. Cooper, and persuaded not to attend for examination. There was, at the time, evidence that she was diseased, and one of the magistrates, a medical man, and the other an admiral, decided that the girl should be examined, and that if she was found free from disease, her name could be removed. Mr. Cooper was in Court, and went away with the girl ; and, as I understood, took her out of the district. Chairinan. 10695. As I understand, when she went away in the first instance to her friends, her name was removed fi-om the register ? — Yes, her name was removed. 10696. How was it put on again ? — She was home with her mother, I think about six weeks ; she went out to work, dressmaking or somethmg of that sort. She got drunk in Plymouth, and was locked up, and she got seven days im- prisonment. On leaving prison, she went into brothel. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 443 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. [ Continued. Chairman — continued, a brothel, and had to be what we call re-registered. She attended once, and was not examined, and then she failed to come up at the proper time for examination. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10697. Then you summoned her before the magistrates for non-attendance at examination? — Yes, and she was taken away by Mr. Cooper. 10698. She left the court with Mr. Cooper, although she was ordered to attend, and the magis- trates advised her really for her good ; she was away for some time, and came back again for prostitution in the district, and was on the register again. 10699. I suppose that after that she was ex- amined regularly ? — After that she was examined regularly. She remained in the district for a very little time after her return. 10700. I suppose that this appearance before the magistrates to which you referred, was on the 5th of August 1870, the same date given by Mr. Shaen?— I think that would be the date, but I have not looked it up. She was only before the magistrates once. 10701. Then I presume that it cannot be the fact that on the 5th of August 1870, Catherine Pickles applied to be relieved from the Acts ; that was not the cause of her coming before the magistrates ? — No ; she refused to attend, and was summoned for non-attendance. 10702. Then instead of its being the fact that she voluntarily applied to be relieved from the Acts, as Mr. Shaen supposes, she was summoned? — I take it that Mr. Shaen means that Mr. Cooper made an application to the magistrates, which they refused to entertain. 10703. And that would reconcile the two statements ; the statement is, that she declared on oath, as did her mother, that she was driven by the Acts to prostitution; do you remember whether she said that? — I do not think so, but I do not remember. The girl was very young, and was sent home to her mother before she was placed on the register the first time. 10704. Is it possible that she could have been driven by the Acts to prostitution? — It is quite impossible, in fact it is quite beside the question. I will give the facts. The girl was found in a brothel in Raleigh-street, Plymouth, at 11 p.m. Her mother lived close by the Royal Naval Hospital in Stonehouse. She was seen home by the Serjeant referred to just now, and handed over to her mother. She was found a second time, and then registered. 10705. That is to say, that she was, to the best of your belief, practising prostitution before she was put upon the register? — She was, for at least a month. 10706. Then it is not very clear how she could have been driven by the Acts to a career of prostitution which she had commenced before she had ever been brought under the Acts? — It is not. I say she was driven off the streets and driven to her own home instead of being re- gistered, in consequence of her tender age. 10707. Do you know how old she was? — She was 15. There were two of them. The one who insisted upon remaining in the brothel was registered the next day. That girl did well after 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, being registered ; she was never examined but once. 10708. She left Plymouth?— No, she went to her home in Plymouth ; Pickles was registered afterwards, but I do not know the date. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 10709. Was she registered at Plymouth after- wards ? — Yes. Chairman. 10710. Wliat do you mean by saying that the other girl did well? — There were two of them found together. The other one named Levy refused to leave the brothel at the time, and she was registered the next day and examined once, and found free from disease ; her parents were informed and she was taken away, and has never been on the register since. 10711. That is what you mean by saying that she did well ? — Yes. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10712. You have given us the whole of the, facts with regard to this case of Catherine Pickles, and you say that the facts stated by Mr. Shaen, so far as they are inconsistent with what you have said, are incorrect ? — They are positively incorrect. Mr. Shaen must have been misinformed, otherwise I am sure he would not have made that statement. 10713. And the same thing applies to the first case of the three women that I mentioned just now ? — Yea. 10714. Now I come to the third case that Mr. Shaen gives. He says : " On the 24th October 1870, before the Devonport bench of magistrates, six girls applied for discharge from hospital, be- lieving themselves to be unjustly detained. One, Agnes Sowden, did not appear, because her dis- charge had been subsequeutly given to her. Mr. Ryder, the magistrate, said, ' It is strange that the woman should have got suddenly well in two days. It proves the necessity of pro- tecting these women.' The bench declined the order in the other cases, although independent medical testimony on oath was given to the effect that they were not diseased venereally." You recollect that case, I suppose ? — I do, very well. 10715. Will you be kind enough to state how far Mr. Shaen's statement is correct, and how far it is incorrect ; 1 understand you to say that you were present on the 24th of October 1870? — I was. 10716. Therefore you can give, I presume, an account of what really ha^^pened, as far as your memory goes, not merely as a matter of opinion, but as a matter of fact, speaking of what you heard with your own ears and saw with your own eyes ? 10717. First, will you tell us who those six girls were; is it true that they did apply for their discharge from the hospital ? — They did. 10718. What took place ?— I will give you the names : Sarah Mack, Mary Ann Roberts, Mar- garet Ward, Susan Eddie, Elizabeth Davis, and Agnes Sowden. 10719. Agnes Sowden is the one specially referred to ? — Sowden had been in the hospital some time, and she had been discharged, I think, 3 K 2 on 444 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. \_Continucd. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, on tlic (lay the ap|)lic;ition was made. For all I know she might have been discharged before the apjiHoation was made. She did not know it, evidently. 10720. When you say that she might have been discharged, what do you mean ? — In the ordinary way, us cured ; I do not know that it was so ; but these women may be discharged for an hour-anda-half or two hours before they leave the hospital. Mr. Cavendish Benlinch. 10721. She had been diseased ? — She had been diseased ; they had all been diseased, there is no doubt about that, I j^resume. They were all in the hospital. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10722. Agnes Sowden was discharged imme- diately: at least, upon tlie same day? — Yes. 10723. And you are inclined to believe that she was discharged in the usual way, irrespective of the order of the magistrates ? — I remember the visiting surgeon saying as much, and I took that for granted. 10724. What about Mack, Roberts, and Eddie ; were they discharged ? — They were not dis- charged. Mack, Koberts, and Eddie went before the magistrates. The house surgeon was present and proved that they were diseased, and they were sent back for treatment. There was another surgeon called in, a private practitioner, who corroborated the evidence of the house surgeon, and they were sent back for further treatment. Davis and Ward never came up at all. In all those cases the women received the ordinary summons, and in two they said, " No, we are not going before the magistrates ; we know we are not well." 10725. Therefore, although they had applied for their discharge, they did not pursue that pro- cess, or appear before the magistrates? — No, they gave me as their reason, that they had been persuaded into it by people who came ,in to see tjarah Mack. Sarah Mack was ordered to the hospital some days before ; she went away with a Marine, and locked herself into a room, and remained there thiee days before she went to the hospital, and the constable who was taking her to the hosjjital was interfered with by Marshall on the way. The constable was not so strict as he ought to have been ; he allowed Marshall to speak to her. She went into the hospital and persuaded the others to make this application, no doubt. 10726. Agnes Sowden was discharged ? — In the ordinary way, by the house surgeon. 10727. Mack, Roberts, and Eddie were proved to be diseased, and were sent back again to the hospital, and the other two, Davis and Ward, never came up at all ? — That is so, and they were proved to be diseased, not only by the house surgeon, but by a private practitioner who was called in to see them. Mr. Siansfeld. 10728. By whom was the private practitioner called in ? — 1 think it was Dr. Swain who was called in at the time. Mr. Siansfeld — continued. 10729. But by whom was he called in? — By the hospital authorities. In these cases the practice was to call in a private practitioner. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10730. Is it true that Mr. Ryder, the magis- trate, said : " It is strange that the woman should have got suddenly well in two days. It ])roves the necessity of protecting these M'omeii"? — I never heard it ; I could not say that he did not say it, but I think it very unlikely, as I should have remembered it if it had been said. All I can say is, I do not remember such an asser- tion. 10731. I suppose it would bo quite consistent with probabilities that it should so happen that on the day on which this woman ai)plied for her dis- charge she should be found by the hospital au- thorities to be perfectly clear from disease ? — Quite. She had been in hospital several times, and hud been in some time then, I do not know how long, but my impression is that she had been there about a month. 10732. As a matter of fact her discharge was coincident in jioint of time with the appearance of the other girls before the magistrates ? — It was 60 ; but that might happen at any time. 10733. Was it true th;\t independent medical testimony on oath was given to the eif'ect that they (which I presume means the whole six girls) were not diseased veucreally ? — No, that was positively Incorrect. 10734. Could independent medical testimony of that kind have Ijeen given ? — There was inde- pendent medical testimony, but it certainly did not go to the eilect that they were free from dis- ease. I have no hesitation in saying that. I re- member the circumstances well. That only affected three of them, you must remember. 10735. Have you stated now all that you know as to what took place before the Devonport Bench of magistrates on the 24th of October 1870? — I have. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 10736. There were three girls sent back to the hospital as diseased ? — Yes. 10737. Was any evidence offered either by them, or on their "behalf, to the effect that they were not diseased venercally ? — They called in some medical man ; I do not know who that medical man was, but he certainly did not prove that they were not diseased. 10738. Was he examined before the court?— Y''es. 10739. Do you remember the evidence that he gave?— I remember that he differed in opinion from the other two medical men. Whilst he would not say that they had no disease, he said it was questionable in his mind (I think it was Dr. Wolferstan), whether the disease was contagious or not. That was as far as he went. 10740: Had he examined them ?— Yes, he had examined them. 10741. Is Dr. Wolferstan the same gentleman who gave evidence before the Royal Commis- -Yes. 10742. Were 16 June 1882.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. Inspector Anniss. 445 [ Coniinued, Dr. Farquharson. 10742. Were those practitioners calleil in by the medical practitioners of the hospital, or by the authorities of the hospital, or by the magis- trates ? — One medical man was called in by the hospital authorities, and one was sent in by the people who were opposing the Acts. The oppo- nents making the application employed a medi- cal man to examine these women ; the hospital authorities then employed an independent medi- cal man also. That was the rule in these cases. Mr. Osborne. Morgan. 10743. There was no obstacle in the way of the examination of these women by independent medical practitioners? — Not the slightest; I never heard of any. 10744. So that the matter was not treated as settled by the decision of the official sur- geons, the surgeons attached to the hospital ; but the women had the right, and they appear to have exercised the right of appealing to inde- pendent medical testimony, with a view of show- ing that they were not diseased ? — It is so ; and it was really not the wish of these women ; they expressed that to me most candidly ; tliey said that they were induced to do it against their will. 10745. Could you explain at all, or suggest any reason Avhy the hospital sui'geons should wish to detain women who are not diseased ? — In my mind, it is entirely incorrect ; as soon as ever they are cured they are sent out; I feel certain about it. Of course, I can only speak from general observation, but I presume that as soon as ever they are well they are sent out. 10746. Is there any reason why a medical man should wish to retain in the hospital a prostitute who is perfectly well ? — There is every reason why he shovdd get rid of her. 10747. He does not obtain any benefit from keeping her there, does he ? — No, and, fur- thermore, he wipes his hands of a troublesome bargain sometimes. 10748. Now about this Miss Murton: Mr. Shaen, in Appendix No. 19, speaks of that as a case of personation of the police ; I believe that it is admitted on all hands that the charge brought against you was absolutely unfounded, that you never accosted or insulted that Miss Murton in your life ; will you oive your own view of this case of personation of yourself; do you attribute it to anybody ; is it your view that any of your men, or anybody else acting under your orders, personated you, and accosted this lady, if she was accosted 't — Neither of my men was within a mile of this particular place on this particular night. But with all the care that I took to look into the matter, I have no hesitation in saying that, in my opinion, it was not in any way a case of personation. 10749. What was it then ? — A young man named Glasson was employed in the country ; a man who lived in the district named Littleton was lodging in this place, at Roborough, about five miles from Plymouth. The girl who brought this charge had been in the habit of visiting Littleton's house, and seeing him at these lodgings in the country. On this given night she walked from Plymouth with this young man, her sweetheart, as she called him, 0.75. Mr. Osborne itfor^ara— continued. Glasson, and saw him part of the way home ; she walked into the country with him as she stated, and walked back again into the town by her- self. Instead of going to her lodgings, which she could have done had she been back at the time she said, she went to a strange house and slept there that night. All this I had some difficulty in tracing, and I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that it was a conspiracy, and not a case of personation in any way. 10750. A conspiracy to bring discredit upon the Acts, 1 su]ipose? — I think so, and to injure myself. The letters were written, signed " Wil- liam Glasson," and dated from the house where this young man lived, but were proved to be in the handwriting of William Littleton, and signed by him as William Glasson. Mr. Stansfeld. 10751. Do you mean that the signature was not in the handwriting of Glasson ? — It was not; it was in. the handwriting of William Lit- tleton. Mr. William Fowler. 10752. Where was that proved ? — In court, by Mr. Littleton himself. It was admitted by him, although he had denied it for two months. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10753. Was that the anonymous letter? — They were not anonymous letters ; they were letters written by William Littleton, and signed as "William Glasson." Chairman. 10754. To whom were they written? — They were sent, I think, to the Home Secretary. Mr. Stansfeld. 10755. That is making a statement against a dead man? — The letters are in existence. 10756. Do you mean to say that he had not Glasson's authority for writing the letters ? — I do not know. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10757. Mr. Glasson, I believe, afterwards married Miss Murton, did he not ? — Yes, lie did. 10758. Now I leave Mr. Shaen and come to Mr. Frederick Wreford, the chief constable of Plymouth. At Question No. 4 he is asked: " You will remember that there was some con- troversy between you and Mr. Anniss with re- gard to the condition of Plymouth, when you were examined before the Commission of 1871?" and the answer is, " There was some difference in our figures." Then he is asked, " But after consideration, you adhere to the figures that you then stated?" and his answer was, "Yes." Do you recollect Mr. Woollcombe's letter of the 28th of April 1871 ?— Yes, I have a copy of it. 10759. Is it not the fact that in 1871 Mr. Wreford was compelled to admit that his figures were wrong, and that your figures were right ? — He did so, absolutely. 10760. Would you give us Mr. Woollcombe's letter of the 28th April ? — That is a copy of the letter (Jianding it to the Right Honourable Member). 10761. This is dated the 28th of April 1871,— " Dear Mr. Mayor — Referring to the interview 3 K 3 I had 446 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 16 June 1882.1 Inspector Anniss. \Continucd. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. I liail with you ou the 12th instant, when Suporiutendent Wreford produced :i list pur- jtorting to contain the names and addresses of all the prostitutes in the borough of Plymouth, on which occasion the list was gone througii in the presence of lus^pcctor Anniss of the nietro- jwlitan police, and was subsequently given to me, in order that the same might be examined and checked by Inspector Anniss, I beg now to return the list with red ink notes in the margin, the cflect of which is classified as follows : Total number of prostitutes alleged by Superintendent "Wreford to be residing witiiiu the borough of Plymouth, between the loth and 29th iNlarch 1871, was 439. Of this number there wore no more actually resident than 217 ; making the general error 222. Besides which, there where 81 known prostitutes whose names are wholly omitted from Superintendent Wreford's list." And then he shows how that error is accounted for : " The following remarks and illustrations are given in reference to the last-mentioned list." Then he gives certain illustrations of his own, and seems to make out how this list is incorrect. Then he goes on to say, " Generally speaking, I may say that in a variety of quarters Superin- tendent AVreford has been considered as a dci ided and reliable opponent of the Acts, and it is a matter of satisfaction to find that he has taken the best opportunity of neutralizing this im- pression by signing the memorial above i-eferred to, which I have reason to believe will be, if it has not already been, submitted to the Royal Commission, and will disabuse the minds of those who have arrived at an erroneous conclusion with reference to his views." You know what that mcmerial is? — I remember that there was such a memorial. 10762. AVas that signed by Mr. Wreford?— It was. 10763. Then Mr. Woollcomhe goes on to say: " I am not in the least surprised that tlie mis- takes I have pointed out should have occurred. It is the most natural thing in the world that a police olhcer, however intelligent and careful, should be misled by an inquiry amongst a class of persons who are notoriously unreliable, and would be disinclined to give correct information to the local police, whilst they know that their conduct is a matter of scrutiny by another police body. Again, the information of the metropolitan police has been acquired, not by an insulated inquiry extending over a limited time, but from the daily observation of several years; and I must sa\- that I think it would have been more to the credit of Superintendent "Wreford if he had abstained from committing himself to cate- gorical statements until he had confirmed their accuracy by previous communication with the only persons who, from the nature of the case, had alone the means, from daily inquiry, of arriving at the truth. — I remain, &e., Thomas Woollvombe.'''' Have you that memorial ? — I have not It was a memorial got up by the magistrates of the three towns in favour of the Acts. 10764. Is it in the Eeport of the Royal Com- mission ? — I am not sure. 1076-5. At any rate Air, Wreford did sign a memorial which practically amounled to an ad- Mr. Oxborne Morgan — continued, mission that his figures were wrong ? — The me- morial that ilr. Wreford signeil was one praying that the Acts might be retained, quite indepen- dently of this list. 10766. Was Mr. Wreford examined before the Royal Commission ? — He was examined pre- viously to this inquiry in Plymouth. 10767. Do you know wiien he signed this memorial : it was after lie had been examined, I presume ? — I am not sure at what time it was, but it was intended for the magistrates ; by some means it was found that Mr. Wreford had signed it, and then Mr. WooUcombe called the mayor's attention to it. 10768. With regard to the memorial itself, I understand that you have not got it ? — I remember seeing it at tlie time, and I remember Mr. WooUcombe speaking very strongly about it, but I do not know what became of it. 10769. Could you, by communicating with the magistrates, obtain possession of it? — I tliink I could get a copy of it. 10770. I should be very glad if you could do so, and send ii to us ? — Yes. After that letter was written, the mayor, Mr. Wreford, and myself, and the superintendent of our division, met together, and Mr. Wreford said that he was sorry, and he admitted that my figures were correct, and that his were wrong, and that he could not be expected to know as I did about it. 10771. Now, will you go to Question No. 14 in Mr. Wreford's evidence, where he was asked this: " Have you a return from 1865 to 1880 showing a large number of persons, amounting, I think, to 151, who were prosecuted by the local police for allowing j)rostitution on their premises, and convicted under this bye-law, w-hich 1 have read;" and his answer was "Yes, to the 29th of September 1881." (That would be for nearly 16 years.) Then he is asked, " They were pro- secuted tor keeping disorderly houses and har- bouring prostitutes upon their premises?' and his answer his '" Yes ; " do you know the cases to which he refers? — I only know that many of these cases were cases brought before the court by myself. 10772. Could you particularise any cases? — For instance, a woman named Mary Ann Strike was sent to prison for 12 montlis on my evi- dence. Mr. Slansfeld. 10773. Is that case contained in this return? — The return is of the cases before the Plymouth magistrates. Mary Anne Strike was found to be moving about the Hoe decoying young girls, and making them prostitutes. She was brought be- fore the magistrates, committed to,' the assizes, convicted, and got 12 mouths' imprisonment. The local police knew nothing about it, and she was convicted entirely on my evidence, and the girl who was so decoyed was sent to a home. Another man, named Downes, living close by tiie Guildhall, was found to be harbour- ing three young girls ; he called them servant girls ; they were all three diseased. The case was brought before the magistrates ; Mr. Wre- ford was simply the nominal prosecutor; he knew nothing about the case. That man was sent to prison for two months. 10774. That SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 447 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. \_Coiilinued. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 10774. That case was prosecuted really upon evidence obtained by yourself ? — Yes. I go to the magistrate's clerk, and he speaks to Mr. Wreford, and the summonses are obtained. Then there was a man named Studdiford, who kept a refreshment house ; he was found to have two girls, one aged 14, and the other aged 15 ; he was summoned in the same way, convicted, and fined o I. 10775. Were there any other cases? — There was another case of a woman named Davies, who had four childi-en of her own, little girls, and who was found to be harbouring prostitutes. She was summoned and sent to prison for four months. Then there was a woman named Bowden, a very similar case. She had two children ; she was sent to prison for two months. A man named Morris, Mrs. Turner's father, and who has kept a brothel for, I think, 30 years, was summoned in four different cases for harboui-ing young girls, and fined 5 /. in each case, making 20 /. altoge- thei". All these cases are entirely on the evidence of Contagious Diseases Acts police. 10776. Do you remember the case of a man named Stanniug? — Yes, I have a large number of cases. 10777. There are a large number of cases in which the prosecution was founded upon evidence obtained by you and through your instrumentality ; is that so? — It is. Wherever I find brothel- keepers harbouring ynung girls I go to the ma- gistrate's clerk, and he kindly secures a summons, and I produce the evidence before the court. 10778. In fact, you get up the evidence upon which the prosecution is based? — Yes, it is always in my hands; but it is only in very bad cases that I take these steps. 10779. What were the results in the cases which you have mentioned ? — In the case of Strike, she has never kept a brothel since ; in the case of Downes, he has never kept a brothel since ; in the case of Studdiford, the result has been the same ; and in the case of Davies the same ; Stanning is still keeping a brothel, and forfeiting his pension. 10780. You brought that influence to bear upon him ? — Yes, in his case, it was the cause of his being summoned. Bowden has never kept a brothel since; ]\Iorris, the father of Mrs. Turner, is still keeping a brothel, although he was fined 20 /. 10781. Then, in the majority of the cases, your efforts have been successful, and the brothels have been closed ? — Yes, it is only people who will persist in keeping brothels, unless they are bound over not to do so, who have continued such traffic after our prosecutions. 10782. You have two instruments in your hands ; you have the prosecutions before the magistrates, and the fear that pensions will be forfeited ? — Yes. 10783. I suppose pensioners are numerous in Plymouth ? — Yes, there are a large number. 10784. In addition to the weapon of prosecu- tion in the case of pensioners, you have the power of applying: to the authorities to stop their pensions? — I have orders to do so. Since 1873, in the case of every pensioner who is found keep- ing a brothel, I am bound to report him, unless he discontinues it after the warning of police. 0.75. Mr. Osburne Morgan — continued. 10785. I need hardly ask you whether that is not a very efficient instrument in your hands for the purpose of preventing those people from keeping brothels ? — Yes ; these pensioners were the very worst class of brothel keepers, I am sorry to say ; and now, with two exceptions, they have ceased to exist as brothel keepers. 10786. In fact, where you find a pensioner keeping a brothel, if he does not desist, you report him under your orders, and his pension is stopped ? — Yes, he is at once sent for by myself, and given 24 hours to clear out, and if he does not I report him. Mr. William Foivler. 10787. Under what Act do you do that ? — It is an order from the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty. 10788. It has nothing to do with the Act at all ? — No ; but it was found out by the Acts that a large number of people were so trafficking, and hence the order. jSIr. Osborne Morgan. 10789. I understand that the steps are these : you get to know, through the opportunities which the Acts afibrd you, that a particular person keeps a brothel ; you know also that he is a pensioner ; and then you are ordered to report him to the Admiralty if he pursues this trade ; and if he persists in it his pension is taken away? — Yes. 10790. At Question No. 60, Mr. V"\ reford is asked this: '•' In Adelaide-street there were 11 licensed houses and now there are none?" and his answer is, "Yes, and those 11 were aU brothels." Then in the next question he is asked, "And they were all put down by your agency ?" and his answer is, " Yes ; every one of them." I suppose that was in the year 1865 ; how many brothels were there in that street in 1865 ? — In 1865 there were 15 brothels in Adelade-street ; they were not all beerhouses ; at the present time there are two ; three of those brothel keepers I have had occasion to report. and they have been prosecuted ; one was fined 30/., another 20 Z., and the tMrd, a woman named Gunn, whose husband was at sea, was defended by the people opposing the Contagious Diseases Acts ; the magistrates thought that the case of a diseased prostitute being in the house was not clearly jDroved to have been kuown by the brothel keeper, and the case was dismissed ; but that woman has not kept a brothel since. 10791. Although the prosecution in one sense failed, yet you attribute to it her giving up brothel keeping ? — -Entirely ; I may say further- more, that these houses were very large brothels ; perfect dens when I went to my work first, but they have been literally starved out; that is to say, the prostitutes have been taken away, and hence the closing of the houses ; the last two or three prostitutes being sent into the hosijital, they had no lodgers to pay rent, and had to clear out and go to work for a living. 10792. That brings me back to one of the reasons which you gave for the successful opera- tion of the Contagious Diseases Acts in stopping 3 K 4 brothels ; 448 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 16 June 1882] Inspector Anniss. [^Continued. Mr. Oshorne il/ori/^zi — continued, brothels ; that in fact you diininish the number of their inmates, and therefore there arc fewer pcojilc to feed the brothels?— It is so. I have had these brothel keepers come to me and ask me to help them to get into the hospitals as nurses, saying, as an excuse for doing so, that they have been starved out by mc. 10793. 1 may take it that what you said with regard to other brothels which were put down applies also to those cases in Adelaide-street l — Yes, they are similar iu every part of the district. 10794. At Question 76 Mr. William Fowler asks .Mr. AVrcford this: " I do not know that I need trouble you any more on that return ; but I siiould like to ask you whether you liave another return, giving the number of brothels and brothel keepers in Plymouth prosecuted by the local police under the Act 25 Geo. 2, c. 36, s. 5, from 1860 to 1881," which of course you know, and his answer is, "Yes." Then he hands It in ; and at Question 78 Mr. Fowler says : " I understand that in some of that particular class of cases there was some assistance given to you as to the evidence by the Contagious Diseases Acts police," to which he replied, " Yes." That I suppose was the tact? — Yes, I will explain that it you will allow me. With regard to that return, I would say that those cases emanated, with one or two exceptions, from myself and not from Mr. Wrclbrd. I am sjieaking of brothel keepers indicted and committed to the Quarter Sessions, and tried there. Mr. Stannfeld. 10795. Is that in return No. 1 of Mr. Wreford? — I am referring to Questions Nos. 76 to 81 in the evidence. These prosecutions have always been, either in consequence of brothel keepers hax-bouring young girls and making them pros- titutes, or training up families of children and refusing to give up the brothels, or harbouring diseased prostitutes after being repeatedly warned. I have a letter iiere which I received this morn- ing from the clerk to the board of guardians, whom I have always applied to in these cases, and I shall be glad to hand it in. ( The same is hnndecl in.') Mr. Oxhorne Morgan. 10796. I understand you to say that these prosecutions were initiated and the convictions sustained by tlie evidence of your police? — It is so. 10797. It is admitted, to a certain extent, by Mr. Wreford, but at Question 79 he is asked this by Mr. Fowler: " You could have obtained thai evidence, if you had wanted it, by your own officers without going to any special police?" and his answer is, "Yes, the women themselves were summoned and examined." Is that so? — I think you will see that that is a return of several cases. There are only two or three cases that at all emanated from jNIr. Wreford ; IMr. Wreford was the nominal prosecutor. For instance, there was the case of a woman and man named Best, in consequence of shutting up prostitutes in cup- boards. In another case a person in Union-street was found also to have prostitutes locked up in cupboards. In the third case a woman had five Mr. Oshorne 3[ort/an — contiiuied. children. And so I could go through the whole of these cases. They are cases that Mr. Wrelbrd knew nothing about, except as a nominal prose- cutor. Mr. Adams was not the clerk to the board of guardians when we had the iirst two cases, but during the last three veai's he has been, and his letter will show you that the prosecutions have really emanated from myself. 10798. Does what you have said now apply also to a brothel in Raleigh -street, which ia referred to, I think, in Question 105? — It would apply to that case; but JNIr. Wreford told the Committee here, contradicting my evidence, that that house had been re-opened before I gave my evidence, which was utterly untrue. 10799. That is the brothel referred to at Question 105 ? — Yes, the people left Plymouth and opened a brothel in St. John's AVood, London. It is positively untrue that tliat brothel has ever been opened since. The house is a private house, and has been occupied by poor but rcajiectable peojjle from the time when these people named Best were indicted and left the town. 10800. I observe that Mr. Wreford says that it was not shut above three months? — I do not know how he could have made such a positively incorrect statement. 10801. Have you the circular to which you referred when you staled tiiat in rei)orting those pensioners who kept brothels to the Admiralty you acted under the order of the Admiralty ? — Yes. (T7/'.' same was handed in.) 10802. Mr. Wreford states that ho considers that the reduction (if the brothels and of the pros- titutes, which he admits is very great, is due to the local police, entirely independently of the Con- tagious Diseases Acts ; wiiat remark have you to make upon that? — In the first place, imless Mr. Wreford inquired very carefully, he would not know ; but I find that from Plymouth alone there have been 7,000 cases in which diseased women have been removed directly from the brothels into the hospital. There they are kept for some considerable time under the influence of the chaplain, matron, and nurses, and a large number of them never return to Plymouth again, but are sent to homes, to friends, ik.c, Chaii'inan. 10803. You are now referring to Plymouth, exclusively of Stonchcuse and Dcvonport ? — En- tirely to the borough of Plymouth. I find that the number of cases amounts to a little over 7,000. Mr. Oshorne Morgnn. 10804. A sensible diminution has taken jjlace since the Contagious Diseases Acts have been in operation? — Yes. Thei;, in addition to these 7,000 cases, there is a large number of girls who are never on the register at all, found just entering a brothel, and who are sent to their friends or to homes. Those girls may or may not have actually fallen. 10805. Then the direct eflPect of the Contagious Diseases Acts is to send these diseased women to hospital, where they are subjected to certain moral and religious influences ; but as a matter of fact, whether owing to these influences or not, those women do leave the borough? — Tiiey do. Then, with regard to the brothels, I have a list of over SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 449 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. {^Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. over a hundred cases which I have picked out. For instance, a clergyman came to me two years ago in consequence of a brothel keeper having opened up a place near a very large Non- conformist chapel, where they had a side entrance. He comphdned of it to me, and he said that the young girls leaving the school had been seen to be stopped by the people there. I at once, without going before the magistrates or the recorder, set to work, and the house was closed. It was the Keverend Mr. Wilson, who is now in London ; if desired, he would tell the Committee the same. In another case a woman, called Grossman, living in Octagon Cottages, had two little girls, one nine years old, and one eleven years old. She put that child of eleven years old in bed with a man. I was about to institute proceedings, but she packed up and left the town in four hours. I believe she came to London. There was another case in Buckland-street. I have a letter here from a lady, which I should like to hand in, which I received this morn- ing, and she refers to the case. The Keverend Mr. Gurney complained to me of a brothel being in a respectable street : I at once set to work and the brothel was closed. That lady, Mrs. Alexander Marshall, refers to it. Another brothel 1 found near a large Wesleyan chapel in King-street, within the borough of Plymouth, and the same thing occurred as at Mr. Wilson's chapel. This woman had four daughters, and the brothel was closed entirely by the operation of the Acts. Mr. Stansfeld. 10806. Will you explain how it was closed entirely by the operation of the Acts ? — The woman came and opened this brothel. She had four daughters who were prostitutes, I pre- sume, before they came into the district. I had to bring them on the register. I had a com- munication with the chapel authorities, and it was arranged that the woman should be indicted. This wonaan packed up and left the town, and her daughters went with her. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10807. Would you say that the powers given to you under the Contagious Diseases Acts, and still more, the opportunities afforded to you as an officer acting under those Acts, have had the effect of very much diminishing the number of prosti- titutes ? — It is so 10808. Then, in addition to that, you say that, owing to three causes, first of all the diminution in the number of prostitutes ; secondly, prosecu- tions which, although nominally instituted by Mr. Wreford, have really been sustained and conducted by yourself; and, thirdly, the powers given to you by that Admiralty circular over the pensioners who keep brothels, the number of brothels has been greatly reduced ?-— Yes. I would like to give another case. It also applies to the dockyard employes. I have a number of cases ; for instance I have the case of a man persisting in keeping a brothel. He had two daughters. I reported the case to the Admiral Superintendent, and the man was dismissed the dockyard ; he had had several warnings from me, and had persisted in still keeping a brothel. Now 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. no man employed in the dockyard dares keep a brothel. 10809. That would show that the powers given you by the Admiralty circular extend not only to pensioners, but to other persons employed by the Admiralty? — Yes, there are five cases in which the same thing has happened to marines. 10810. Mr. William Adams is a solicitor at Plymouth, is he not ? — He is, in large practice. 10811. Was he not in the first instance opposed to the Acts ? — He was employed by the opponents in many cases. 10812. Was he professionally employed by the opponents of the Acts ? — Yes. 10813. He is now clerk to the guardians, and therefore he occupies an official position ? — Yes. 10814. He says: "The first information of the worst of the cases pi'osecuted was given me by you, and you supplied me with almost the whole of the evidence in all the cases, except the last " ? — That is the return refeiTcd to. Chairman. 10815. With what return do you connect that statement of Mr. Adams? — The return which Mr. Wreford refers to is the return of the convictions having taken place in which he received a little help from myself. Mr. Stansfeld. 10816. But Mr. Wreford does not give a specific retnrn, does he ; how many cases does he refer to ? — I have not the return before me. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10817. Mr. Adams says : "In the year 1870, when the opponents of the Acts were carrying on an agitation here, I conducted some cases for them before the magistrates, mostly cases in which women at the hospital were not thought ill enough to be detained, but I took no part in the movement. During the last three years. I have in consequence of holding the oflSce of clerk to the guardians and overseers of this town conducted seven cases against brothels, which were all suppressed, besides having had to consider complaints against others." He is there referring to seven cases ? — Yes ; those are the cases included in Mr. Wreford's return, in which he speaks of convictions under the 25 Geo. 2, c. 36, s. 5. 10818. Is that the return to which he refers (handing a return to the Witness) ? — Yes, the return of persons convicted of keeping bawdy houses from 1860 to 1881 ; that is tlie return referred to. Mr. Stansfeld. 10819. Then you say that Mr. Adams' letter refers to the two last years ? — It refers to the last three years. In 1876 Mr. Matthews the solicitor, was clerk to the board of guardians, and the same course was adopted tlien as since Mr. Adams has been clerk. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10820. Mr. Adams goes on to say : " I do not think it would be well to entrust such duties to the local police who, though efficient for their general work, might or not be qualified for this, and stand 3 L in 450 MINCTZS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE TUE 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. r Continued. Mr. Osbiirne Morgan — continued, ill unciTtaiu reiiitions to watch committee* and magistrates wiio exercise various degrees of control over tlieni in dift'erent localities.'' 1 suppose your experience would enable you to corroborate that ? — Yes, I have expressed that opinion. 10821. Then he goes on to say : " In conclusion I thank yo\i lor the unvarying courtesy and ready assistance I have received from you, and desire to mention that when you aj)peared before the borough recorder in some of the cases I have mentioned, he publicly exjiressed his liigh ajipre- ciation of the ability and discretion with which you have carried out your duties, and thanked you particularly for the course you had adopted in preventing a brigiit young girl from being inveigled into a life of infamy ; " was the recorder of Plymouth, Mr. Cole, who was lately Member fur Penryn and Falmouth ? — Yes, I met Mr. Adams the day before yesterday, and mentioned what had been said ; he replied that he was very sorry ; and would like to give evidence, but he told mc at once that he would write me a letter. 10t>22. AVere you present, and did you hear wJiat the recorder said about ycmrself ?- Yes, I have on several occasions, not only once ; that was about a year ago ; the girl referred to by Mr. Adams there was taken in on the pretence of being a servant, and kept in the house, unknown to me until a lady spoke of it, and I at once insisted upon the girl leaving the house ; that used to be a common thing, but I am glad to say that it is a thing of the past with us. 10823. You observe that Mr. John Lynn hands in a return with regard to Devonport, of the number of brothels of all kinds from 18G2 to 1881 ; and in that return it appears that in 1866 tJie number of brothels was 60 and that at the present time they are 11 ; from looking at that return and other returns, can you tell me whether, before 1865, when the Contagious Diseases Acts first came into operation, there was any diminution in the number of brothels ? — As I have already stated 1 was in Devonport in 1855, and I returned there in 1860, and was on duty in Devonport from 1860 to 1865, and the brothels remained in rows precisely the same as they had been ; there was really no diifercnce until we commenced. 10824. In 1865, up to which time you say that there had been no diminution in the number of brothels in Devonport, what was the number of brothels? — There were 74 in 1865 in the borough of Devonport, and I find that they were in 33 different streets and lane?. Mr. Stanxfeld. 10825. Then you do not agree with these figures ?■ — I do not. -Mr. Osboiuc Mvrgun. 10826. What was the number of prostitutes ? — The number of prostitutes was 340 ; at the present time there are nine brothels, and 69 common women. 10827. Mr. Lynn says that there are 11 at present ; you say that there are eight or nine ? — Yes ; there are nine. Mr. Stnnsfehl 10828. Mr. Lynn's figure of 11 is for the year 1881 'r* — That would be correct. Mr. Osliorne Moiyan. 10829. Do you remember how many there were on the 31st of December 1866, when the Act of 1866 came into operation ? — Yes. 10830. The reason I ask you is, that 1 see Mr. Lynn says that the number of brothels in 1866 was 60? — In 1866 the ninnhcr of brothels was 50. 10831. At what date in 1866 ?— Our returns are made to the 31st of December in each year. I can give the number in every year, if it is necessary. 10832. There has been a very sensible diminu- tion ? — Yes. ihe numbers were as follows: in 1863 there were 86 ; in 1864 there were 88; in 1865 there were 74 ; in 1S66 there were 50; in 1867 there were 46 ; in 1868 there were 39 ; in 1869 there were 33 ; in 1870 there were 29 ; and thev came down in 1881 to nine. 10833. In fact there has been a continuous decrease ever since the Contagious Diseases Acts came into operation? — Yes, I have a diagram which will shew that. 10834. Before the Acts, more particularly the Act of 1866, which of course is the most impor- tant Act, could you tell me whether there was as between the years 1864 and 1866^ an increase or a decrease? — From 1863 to 1864 there was an increase of two. 10835. From 1864 to 1866 was there any de- crease ? — They began to fall then. But I find by Mr. Lynn's returns that he showed an in- crease in the numbers. That does not agree with my returns. 10836. In answer to Question No. 344, Mr. Lynn puts in a i-etui'u of convictions under the Licensing .4cts obtained against public-house and beerhouse keepers in Devenport for harbour- ing prostitutes, from 63 to 73. There wei-e, apparently, 49 convictions. He is asked, "Were any of those 49 convictions obtained through the instrumentality of the Contagious Diseases Acts police " ? and the answer is, " Certainly not." Then he is asked, •' You state that in one case the officers of the Contagious Diseases Acts police did not know that the house was a brothel?" and he replies, '• No, neither did I, until we got the evidence to convict it." 1 1 ave you any remarks to make upon that evidence ? — I have read that return very carefully, and find that the large pro- portion of those convictions were before the Contagious Diseases Acts came into operation. For instance, in the two years immediately prior to the Acts, there were 17 cases in each year ; that amounted to 34. Mr. Stansfehl. 10837. Where do you find that to be so ?— I think you will find that there are 34 cases in 1863 and 1864 ; I find that in a return handed in by Mr. Lynn ; that is as I read it. 10838. It is the second return. In 1 863 there were 23; in 1864 there were 11; that makes 34; then in 1865 the number is reduced to seven ? SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 451 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. [^Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, seven? — In 1865 the Acts were partially at work in Devonport, and the number has fallen to seven. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10839. Then from that year to 1872 there are only eight cases, and from 1872 thei'e are none ? — None ; and I think that shews that something must have been at work. 10840. You have this fact : that before the Contagious Diseases Acts were in operation there were no less than 34 convictions, and the moment that the Acts came into operation, they began sensibly to diminish until, in 1872, they disappeared altogether? — Yes: when Mr. Lynn is shewing that he gets 34 convictions, he also shews that the brothels increased 19 in number dui'ing those very two years, that is according to his own retm-n. They increased from 41 to 60. 10841. We have the important fact that, contemporaneously at any rate with Contagious Diseases Acts coming into operation, these convictions became less and less until they disappear altogether?— Yes, and I would Kke to shew the Committee how it happens. The first Act of 1864 made it an offence for anyone to keep a diseased prostitute. The informations then were numerous, scores in a week, sometimes, and these brothel keepers were cautioned and had to clear the prostitutes out to prevent pro- secutions, and the girls had to leave, and such houses were closed. 10842. You are aware, of course, that your powers are of a purely sanitary kind, that is lo say, you can only proceed against a brothel keeper where you suspect him of harbouring a diseased prostitute ; but does not the fact of a good many at any rate of these prostitutes being diseased give you a considerable power over brothel keepers generally? — That is so. It is not the prosecutions, but the facts which occur as mentioned above without prosecutions ; of warning these people. In every case in which we take proceedings before a magistrate those people have been warned before, and if they take notice of, and act on the caution of the police, they are not prosecuted. Chairman. 10843. Then are we to understand that in these cases of prosecutions of beerhouses and drinking houses, it was these previous circum- stances known to you, of disease, &c., that led to the prosecutions? — Yes. I can put my finger on house after house where the whole number was turned out. I should send a man to say that a certain girl or girls there were supposed to be diseased, and the brothel keeper, fearing that he would be brought before the magistrate, would at once clear out. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10844. You having jurisdiction, if I may use such an expression, over diseased prostitutes, and many prostitutes being diseased, that gives you a hold over the people who harbour prostitutes generally ?— Yes, it does. In the year that we are speaking of, 1865, I should like to say that there were 200 prostitutes brought up, and every one of them was found to be diseased. 10845. Therefore, although you have onlv a 0.75. ~ ^ Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, right to proceed against persons harbouring prostitutes who are diseased, the knowledge that you have that right enables you to bring a very powerful influence to bear upon brothel keepers generally; is not that so? -Clearly; I think that in all our prosecutions we have only failed twice. They, the brothel keepers, do not" like the idea of going before the magistrates on charges preferred by metropolitan pobce. 10846. In answer to Question No. 360, Mr. Lynn says, that nine public-houses and 34 beer- houses were shut up, on the ground of the houses being the resort of prostitutes, or brothels : I suppose you would reply to that in the same way that you have answered those questions that I have already put to you, that is to say, that the tact of their being the resort of prostitutes or brothels, would be discovered by you in the course of your duties under the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — That must be so ; but I should like to point out to the Committee that Mr. Lynn also said, in answer to Question No. 397, that he had never shut up a brothel at all. I think there he answers his own statement, or rather disproves it. 10847. He says, " I cannot say that I have been the meansof permanently closing any brothel at all " ? — That is as I read it ; and," therefore, it seems to me that he answers himself. 10848. I would refer you to Question 432 of Mr. Lynn's evidence ; he says, '-' On the 9th of last month two young women were locked up and convicted of being common prostitutes, and behaving in an indecent manner; and one of them was then 16, and she had been on the town two years, she said " ; he was then asked, " Had she ever been at the Lock Hospital ?," to which he replied " : " She said she had been out of the Lock Hospital five days " ; he was then asked, " How old was the other one ? " his reply was : '• She was 20, and she had been more than three years on the town " ; have you any observations to make as to the age of the prostitutes on the register?— I referred to my books, and I found that two girls were locked up on the date that Mr. Lynn referred to. One of them was named Elizabeth Carson, who was 17 years old, living in Central-sti-eet, Plymouth. She had literally been trained up to prostitution ; she was sent to a home more than 12 months before. 10849. Where had she been trained up ?— In Stonehouse. She had never lived in Devonport ; she strayed into Devonport on this particular night, and got locked up. 10850. Was that one of the girls stated by Mr. Lynn to be 16 years of age?— That is the girl. She did not belong tc Devonport cer- tainly, never lived in the borough. 10851. With regard to the other one, aged 20, what have you to say ? — The other girl's name is Jessie Mole. She had been on the books then just six weeks ; she certainly had not been a pros- titute more than seven weeks at the most. She had never lived in Devonport; she then lived in Central-street, and has lived there from that time untU she was sent to the hospital a few days ago. 10852. As to the general ages of prostitutes on the register ; could you give me any figures to show what the relative ages of prostitutes on the register were in 1866, for instance, and in 1882 ? 3 L 2 — I referred 4oi MlNtTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEX REFOUE THE 16 June 1H82.1 Inspector Anniss [ Coittiniied. Mr. Osborne Monjan — continued. — I referred at once to my register, as Mr. Lynn was there referring to ages, iind I found tliat I had not a single woman in the borough of Dcvon- jiort under 18 years of age. I went furtlier than that, and I went back to 18G6 and took the first 100 women placed on the register in that year, and I found that over 80 of those 100 women were under 20 years of age. 10853. How many would be 20 and how many would be over 20 in the year 1882 .' — There would be very few indeed under 20, but I have not the number. If I remember rightly, the number would be 27 under 20 years of age in 1882. 10854. You said that there were none under 18; Elizabeth Carson would be, 1 suppose, under 18? — Elizabeth Carson did not belong to Devon- jiort in any way. Elizabeth Carson is 17 years of age. 10855. Mr. Lynn, in answer to Questiou 469, does not admit that there has been a steady de- crease in the number of prostitutes ; how far does the return \Nhich you have made affect that answer? — The only way in which it varies is this, that when we had nearly 400 prostitutes in Devonport the reduction in each year was larger; whereas now that we have only a few in num- ber, that is to say, about 72, the decrease is smaller. 10856. Could you give me any return which would show the number of prostitutes who, in each year, have ceased to reside in the borough ? — I have the increase and the decrease for every year from the time wJien the Acts came into operation. The returns will show the numbers separately for Plymouth, Devonport, and Stone- house, by a diagram for each town. ( The same were handed in.) 10857. In Question 5.33, Mr. Lynn is asked this, •' Do you know that there were brothels existing in the main streets of Devonport, such as Fore-street, St. Aubyn-street, Chapel-street, George-street, and so forth, and that they have disappeared?" and his answer was, " There never was a brothel in any of those streets to my know- ledge, unless it was a public-house or a beer- house." Is that correct? — Very likely Mr. Lynn would not have the knowlege, but there were brothels in all these streets. 10858. Not being public-houses or beer- houses? — ISot being public-houses or beerhouses. For instance, on one occasion, in July 1872, in St. Aubyn-street, which is the most prominent street in Devonport, I found two prostitutes. No one, I presume, but the metropolitan police knew anything aliout it. One was taken to the hospital and the other was helped to her friends at Totnes. 10859. Then Mr. Lynn is asked this, at Ques- tion 529, " But do you not in any way connect that decrease, which you admit took place after the passing of the Contagious Diseases Acts with the operation of those Acts ? " and his answer is, " I do not in my own mind. I would if I could." Have you any facts as regards Devonport which would connect the decrease with the operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — During the last 17 years I find there have been 2,('50 prostitutes taken from the brothels of Devonport and sent into the hospitals : and a large number of those. Mr. Osliorne Morijan — continued, about 250, have not returned to the brothels again. Something like 30 or 40 a year are found in the act of going into a brothel, or just as they had got in, who have been sent to their friends. Those in 17 years amounted to a considerable number; something like 700 during the whole time. 10860. Then I take it that you attribute to the preventive and remedial operation of the Contagious Diseases Acts, that diminution in the number of prostitutes ? — Clearly. I find that the number in the 17 years amounted to a total of nearly 800 in Devonshire alone. 10861. You have already stated that there has been a considerable reduction in the number of brothels in Devonport in the 17 years since the Acts came into operation ? — Yes, I will give you an illustration. In 1871 three girls, one of whom came from across the water, from near Mount Edgcumbe, and two from Stonehouse, were found in a brothel in Granby-row, Devonport. The three were sent into hospital, and that house has never been used as a brothel since. 10862. You have already explained to us how you manage to put down the brothels in Ply- mouth, and I suppose that would apply also to Devonport? — It would. Perhaps I may give you another illustration. In Devonport, two years ago, a labourer employed in Her Majesty's Dockyard opened a brothel, he had two girls, one 14, and the other 13 years of age- He was cautioned about keeping the brothel, being employed in the Dockyard, and he at once gave it up. The elder of those two girls had to be sent to the hospital, and is now in the Bovey Home, and that house has ceased to be a brothel. 10863. What has been the reduction in the number of brothels in Devonport ? —From 74 to nine, 10864. Would not the decrease in the number of prostitutes in Devonport, as well as in Plymouth, in itself account for the reduction of the number of brothels ? — Entirely. 10865. If there were no prostitutes there would be no brothels? — Quite so ; the one rules the other. 10866. Now I will take you to the evidence of Captain Edward Brutton. Can you tell me over how large an area Captain Brutton's jurisdiction extends? — It extends over the township of East Stonehouse, about half-a-mile square ; and then he has the villages eastward of Plymouth, as far as Ivy Bridge, or about one-sixth of the number of the inhabitants of the Plymouth and Devonport district. 10867. So that, I suppose, only a small pi'o- })ortion of the prostitutes of the whole district reside within the limits of his jurisdiction ? — One-fourth. The number in Stonehouse is now just 100, and thai is one-fourth of the total number in the district. 10868. At Question 591 he is asked to give the number of brothels of all kinds in Stonehouse, and the number closed between 1865 and 1882; and he puts in a return, from which it appears that in 1865 there were 31 brothels; 24 of which were beerhouses, three coffee-houses, and four private houses. Is that return correct ? — It is positively incorrect. 10869. In what respect is it incorrect? — In the SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 4.53 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. [^Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. the first place, it is incorrect with respect to numbers. The number in 1865 was 52. 10870. How do you make out that? — I took the number myself, and that was the number of brothels in 1865 in the township of East Stone- house. They were situated in 13 different streets and lanes. Then I would like to call the Com- mittee's attention to a return supplied by the superintendent of the Stonehouse police, which gave the number of prostitutes in Stonehouse as 393 in 1865. 10871. So that if there had been only 31 brothels, that would have given the large num- ber of 13 prostitutes to each brothel ; is not that so ? — Yes, it would be nearly 13 pi'ostitutes to each brothel. 10872. That would strike you as an absurdly excessive number ? — Yes, it would be absurd. Many of these brothels have only two bed-rooms. They were then scattered all over the township : whereas now they are all in one street, and in that street the houses are large. 10873. In 1865 there were 52 brothels? — Yes. 10874. That is founded upon your own ob- servation ? — Yes. 10875. How many are there now ? — At present there are 12. I have prepared a map for the use of this Committee, on which they are shown in 1865 marked in black ink, and now in red ink. 10876. At Question 594 Captain Brutton is asked this by Mr. Stansfeld: "I now under- stand from you that in the year 1869, the licenses of none of those 24 beer-houses were renewed; that 10 of those houses were altogether closed, and that 14 remained opened as private brothels, but ceased to be beer-houses ?" He is speaking, I may say, of beer-houses, and coffee-houses, and other places used as brothels. Is that a fact ? — It is entirely incorrect. Captain Brutton was not in the township then ; I myself was there for years prior to this. It was a fact that the brothel keepers in Stonehouse, for the sake of facilitating their traffic, used to obtain a beer license. Prior to 1869 they could get a beer license for 3/. 7^^. Qd., I think, and of course that helped them to carry on their traiEc. When the licensing came into the hands of the magistrates the brothel keepers found that they should not obtain any license, and they did not apply for the license ; but the closing of the brothels did not go with the taking away of these licenses. 10877. The withholding of the licenses and the closing of the brothels you say did not go to- gether ? — f'hey did not. 10878. May I take it that the same influences which you say have been brought to bear upon the brothel keepers under the Contagious Diseases Acts, in Plymouth and Devonport, has also been the cause of the diminution of brothels and the ■emptying of them in Stonehouse ? — Entirely so. 10879. One man was convicted, I think the landlord of the Freemasons' Arms, upon evidence collected by you ? — He was, entirely. 10880. He was convicted, I suppose, of keeping a public-house as a brothel? — I will give you the facts very briefly. In 1876 the steward of one of Her Majesty's shijis absented himself, and could not be found ; I received . information that he was locked up in a room at this public- 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — coninued. house with a prostitute. I sent there first and the man was denied. I then went myself with a, constable named Frost, who is now in the force. The landlord said the man had gone. I after- wards found that the landlord had taken him to Tavistock when in a state of drunkenness ; he found Jiis way back, and told me he was in the house when I called, and that he was taken away by the landlord ; I brought the woman, the prostitute, on the register. Mr. Eastlake, the then Admiralty Law Agent, obtained a summons, and the landlord was prosecuted, and on the evidence of myself and Police-constable Frost convicted and fined 20 /. I am not at all sure whether Captain Brutton was the nominal pro- secutor, but if so he was only that; the pro- secution was by order of the Admiralty, and conducted by the Admiralty Law Agent, Mr. Eastlake. 10881. TVas the evidence got up by yourself? — Entirely. 10882. During the year 1881 how many brothels were closed in Stonehouse? — There were four brothels in Stonehouse literally closed during the year 1881. 10883. In consequence of the visits of your police ? — Clearly so. One man who had been driven out of Plymouth opened a brothel, and furnished it very elaborately, near the Marine Barracks. A prostitute was seen to go there, and the man was told by myself on the following day that I should at once see the magistrates as it was in a very respectable district. The same day he got a waggon, packed up his things, and left the district. 10884. And I understand you to say that it is the jurisdiction which the Contagious Diseases Acts gives you over persons harbouring diseased prostitutes that enables you to put in motion, or bring to bear upon them, influences which result in their giving up their trade ; is that so? — It is so, and furthermore, if a brothel is opened in a respectable neighbouiiiood, the owners of the property are informed that the house is a brotheL 10885. By whom? — By the Contagious Diseases Acts jjolice. 10886. In fact, I suppose I may take it that the Contagious Diseases Acts police really must know much more about these brothels from their very position and duties in regard to this subject, that they must have greater power of diagnosing, if I may use the expressioii, what the trade of these people is, than the local police can have ? — I think I can give the Committee a very good illustration of that : a fortnight ago to-day a man came into Plymouth, I believe, from London (but I am not sure), and opened a brothel in the North-road, a very respectable neighbourhood ; he brought four prostitutes with him, wherever he came from ; he told me that he came from Southampton, but I am not sure about it ; I saw those four women; they had been found in the streets the day after they came in ; I told them what they would have to do if they remained in Plymouth, and they said, " Oh, yes, we know all about it." The man was rather insolent, and I turned to him, and told him he had got into a respectable neighbour- hood, that across the way (pointing to a large building) there was a training college for young 3 L 3 sentlemen. 454 MIMTF.> OF EVIDKNCK TAKKN HKFOUK TUK 16 Jvilt: 1882. J Inspector Anmss. Continued. Mr. Osborne Morf/an — continued, gentlemen, and that he would very likely hear Mimcthing ot" it it' he did not clear out. On leav- ing the house, I saw the landlady , a widow woman, who lives a few doors from this house ; 1 spoke to her, and told her that the house was a brothel. That man had to pack up his furniture, and he left the town two days after, taking his four women with him, and we have not heard of him since. 10887. You spoke of having reported pen- sioners, who kept brothels, to the Admiralty authorities in Devonport and Plymouth ; have you dr ne that also in Stonehouse ? — Yes. 10888. In how many cases? — I am not sure of the number, but, I think, there have been seven cases of jiensioners in Stonehouse ; I have a return showing the total number in the district. 10889. How many of those i)ersons have iiiven up their trade? — There is one pensioner in Stone- house who has forfeited his pension ; and is still keeping a brothel ; the others have all given up. 10890. How many prostitutes do you say, in the course of the IT years during which tiie Contagious Diseases Acts have been in operation, have been taken out of Stonehouse ? — The num- ber of cases is about 2,000. 10891. How many of those women have been discharged and have not returned ?— I find that the number is just 300 ; in adilition to that, as I have already stated, probably a week would not pass without a girl being either stopped going into a brothel, or being found directly she got there, and saved from a life of degradation. 10892. And the observation that you made with regard to Plymouth and to Devonport ap- plies also to Stonehouse ? — It does ; I could refer you to a case that occurred this day week : a girl from Stonehouse was found in a brothel ; she had only just got there, and is now in a refuge in Plymouth : she is 15 years old ; said she had never been with any man : I do not know how far that is true. Very possible not. 10893. At Question 3723 Mr. Cooper is asked what conclusion he would draw from certain fio-ures, and he says : " The conclusion I should draw would be that they (that is the Contagious Diseases Acts police) were not able to bring on to the register not only the whole of the women, but evenlialf of those who -n-ere more or less practising prostitution, or, whether able or not, that they had not done so." He says there that half thecommon women in this district are not registered : is that the case ?— I say that that is literally untrue. He can know nothing about it. The whole of the prostitutes are registered. The police are quite capable of doing their duties, and if anyone knows it as regards the Plymouth district, I know the prostitutes there, certainly. 10894. Do you know whether Mr. Cooper has had the same experience of these subjected dis- tricts that you have had? — He certainly has not. 10895. At Question 3737 Mr. Cooper is asked this: "In Eeturn IS'o. 3, the proportion of regis- tered and unregistered is slightly altered; the registered are fewer in later years and the un- registered increase contemporaneously. In 1870 you give the number of registered women as 60, and in 1881 it is reduced to six ; will you give the Committee the reason of this exceptional decrease in the number of registered women Mr. Osboi-ne Morgan — continued, received into your homes?'' and his answer is, " We came to the conclusion that the vvomen on the register were so injurious, were such a source of mischief, and were the means of leading others astray by taking them to subjected districts, that we I'elt obliged, with very great ]>ain. to exclude applications of that character, and to direct our attention more particularly in favour of receiving those who had not gone wrong." Can you give me any facts which bear at all upon that state- ment of Mr. Cooper's? — In the first place, I beg this Committee to understand that Mr. Cooper has no knowledge whatever whether a woman is on my register, or not. 10896. Do you remember Mr. Cooper coming to your district in 1870 ? — Yes, very well. 10897. What did he do there'?— The first knowledge I had of j\lr. Coopep's jiresence was I found him at the waiting-room door having a controversy with a prostitute and a brothel keeper. He had seen the brothel keeper before, I found. I asked him who he was, and he said he was a member of the Rescue Society in Lon- don : and, looking to one of these women. Mary Sullivan, he said, " I am come here to give these people liberty, and I intend to do it before I return to London."' 10898. AVere there any women with him / — There were several round him. Tlie sergeant called mv attention at the time to the fact that people were raising a disturbance, and I requested Mr. Cooj)er to move away, and told him we could not allow this to take place. However, he refused to go, and the consequence was that he was sum- moned and punished for obstructing the police in the execution of their duty. 10899. Did he take away any woman to Lon- don ? — There were many sent away by him and people who were with him. 10900. Did you know the women that he sent away ? — A large number of them. 10901. Were they hardened women and a source of mischief to oth-rs ? — It was so : Mr. Cooper is perfectly right that the women he got hold of were the most hardened, and the most dishonest, and they came back to the district, many of them to boast that they had had a cheap cruise at Mr. Cooper's expense. Chairman. 10902. Did they say that to you ?•— Many^of them. They would come into the Availing rooms and boast of it. iMr. Oshoriie Morgan. 10903. Those were the women whom he took to his home in London ?— Yes, it was very un- fortunate. It was only that class of women that he got hold of; not women desiring to reform their characters. 10904. So that Mr. Cooper's experiences were hardly fair experiences of the general class of women who come upon the register ? — The class of women he wouhl have experience of would be the most hardened. The young girls who were inclined to reform knew where to come to in the district. 10905. He says, in answer to Question 3889, " I know these Acts to be thoroughly approved of by the old brothel keepers in the subjected districts." SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 455 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. \_^ConWiued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — cont districts." Is that a fact ? — I do not know what Mr. Cooper's experience may be since, but his experience in Plymouth was that the brothel- keepers were thoroughly against the Acts, and he sided with them and defended them, or at least, the association that he belonged to defended them, when we prosecuted them. Further than that, he took a brothel at No. o. Octagon-street, Plymouth, a short distance from the waiting room, where they had a petition signed agamst the Acts. That is a matter of fact. 10906. You mean that they used a brothel for signing a petition?— I presume they had to pay for it." They were there with a petition; but they cleared out when I found ihem out, and spoke loudly about it, as being a most disgraceful thing. 10907. Do you mean that the petition was signed, as a matter of fact, at a brothel ?— -This house was a brothel, and I saw the people signing a petition there, and I found out afterwards that it was a petition against the Acts. Mr. Cooper was present, and a female who went by the name cf King. Chairman. 10908. You say that they took a brothel; do you mean to say that you saw them on one or two or three occasions obtaining signatures there ? — I was informed by the men that they had got this house, and that they were using it for signing the petition. 109,09. 'Was the trade of a brothel still being carried on there ? — Yes ; one Mary Sullivan, whom we had before the Court, was living in the house at the time, she came and told me they had the petition there. 10910. That is what you mean by saying that they took a brothel? — Yes, Sullivan laughed about it, and told me. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 1091 1. Do you mean that they used the brothel for the purpose of having a place in which the petition could lie for signature ? — Yes, that is so. Not long after that I summoned a brothel keeper of Gran by-street, for harbouring a diseased pros- titute. She was convicted ; I do not know whether it was Mr. Cooper, or Mrs. King, but one of them told me that they would defend her, and she was defended, and the solicitor told me that he waspaid for defending her by these peojjle. 10912, Coming to Question 3895, he says that one of three young women whom he refers to as " a most respectable young woman, stated that she had been made to sign a document called the voluntary submission, that is the general evi- dence that I received from these women." Is it possible that anyone could be " made " to sign this voluntary submission ? — 1 tried to be candid with Mr. Cooper (we had been going on very quietly before he came there), and I told him distinctly that it was a voluntary act of the women, and begged that he would not interfere with them. 10913, But as a matter of fact under any pos- sible circumstances covdd a woman be compelled, directly or indirectly, to sign this voluntary form ? — No, there is no coercion whatever as regards the signing of the voluntary submission. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 10914. It is explained to them that if they do it they do it voluntarily ? — In every case when a woman is seen by myself at a brothel, or else- where, she is told first that if she does not con- tinue her immoral life there is no necessity for her to be registered : but that if she does, and is willing to submit herself, she may do so by signing a voluntary submission form, or she will be taken before the magistrates; and the Act is in every case explained. I have generally a constable or sergeant with me on such occasions. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 10915. Is the visiting surgeon present when she signs the voluntary submission? — They are at the rooms ; but as a rule the women sign at the brothels before the visiting surgeon can see them. In a few cases the visiting surgeon has seen them sign. 10916. Is there not a new order issued, which requires the presence of the visiting surgeon ? — Yes, when practicable. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10917. If you look at Mr. Cooper's answers to Questions 4024 to 4027, you will see that he suggests that women are brought to the hospital and kept there for the benefit of the hospital funds, or for some other purpose, with a view of getting work out of them, and so forth. As a matter of fact, are women who are not diseased sent to the hospital wards ? — It is positively untrue. 10918. May I take it that yoti know, as a mat- ter of fact, that no woman who is not diseased could be either sent there or kept there? — In the first place the visiting surgeon would certainly not send a woman to the hospital unless she was diseased ; in the next place, I am quite sure that the house surgeon would not keep a woman there unless she was diseased. 10919. Is there any conceivable motive that you can suggest for keeping a perfectly healthy woman there ? — Everything the reverse, as I said just now. I will give you an instance. A girl about two months ago, whose parents were highly respectable people, was found in a brothel ; she said she had never been with anyone, and she gave an address in Saltash. It was found however that she lived in Stonehouse, and was restored to her friends. Two days afterwards she left home again and was then registered, and found to be diseased, very slightly, as I un- derstood. She was in the hospital 14 days, and was sent to the Bovey Home from the hospital, where she still remains. 10920. I suppose I may take it that the state- ment which Mr. Cooper makes, in answer to Question 4047, is not his own statement, when he says, " I have heard from the young women that, when they first come up for examination, it is very frequently, not to say generally, the case that they send them into the hospitals when they are not diseased." You say that that is entirely false ? — Yes ; I find that the first 100 women in 1865 who were brought up, from information from men, were all found to be diseased, whereas I find in taking the first 100 of the present year, as they stand on the register, there are 3 L 4 only 45G MIXITES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN' BEVORE THE l(i June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, only 29 of them foiuul tliscased, whilst thcothera, 71, are found tree from disease. 101)21. You arjiue from that that only those who were diseased would be scut to the hospital ? — Clearly. 10922' At Question 4089 Mr. Cooper is asked: " How do you account for the existence of this enormous class of clandestine prostitutes in the subjected districts of which you speak ; why do not all men go to subjected women if they arc free from disease : if these women arc guaranteed free from disease, why are men sucli fools as to i'O with womeu who are not guaranteed?" and lis answer is: "Because they are such fools in one sense, to use your expression ; Imt in many instances they Tcry much disapprove of the •women who "are under the Acts ; they regard them as mere machines." Is that statement true ? — I must admit, though I have had so long an experience as 17 years, that I have not gone into this subject ; but my experience is that men prefer women who are supposed to be free from disease, that is to say, not clandestine prosti- tutes. 1092.3. That would seem to show that the num- ber of these clandestine prostitutes must, as the honourable Member supposes, be very much exaggerated ? — The number of clandestine pros- titutes in the protected districts must necessarily be small ; they cannot exist without my knowing it : and if they continue after warning they must become registered. 10924. Do you know when Mr. Cooper was last in riymouth ? — I have never seen him there since 1870 and 1871 ; I think he remained in the district in 1871, but I am not sure. 10925. What was the period of his conviction, and tine of 5 /. ? — 1870. He was there ott' and on for some little time after that. I do not know of his having been in the district since ; he certainly has not come to interfere with our work since. 10926. At Question 4327 Mr, Cooper is asked: '•■ Did 1 correctly understand you to say that ac- cording to your view, having been taken up by the police in that way, the women could be brought under medical treatment ? " and his answer is : " I mean that if put in imprisonment they are forcibly, as I understand it, brought under medi- cal treatment." As a matter of fact, if women are put into prison lor disorderly conduct, or for any other reason, are they medically treated or detained in jn-ison for that purpose ? — Only for the time of their imprisonment, but they are not forcibly examined. 10927. That is to say, if a woman was impri- soned for 14 days for disorderly conduct, at the end of those 14 days, although she might be suffering from the most terrible venereal dis- ease she would not be detained ? — She would not be detained, nor would site be treated, un- less she complained of being ill. 1 have known cases of women being in prison many times, who have come out and never mentioned the fact of their being diseased ; they would not be forcibly examined. 10928. Of course, if they chose voluutai-ily to apply, like any other inmates of a ]jrison, they Tvouid be treated medically ? — U ntil their term of imprisonment expired. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued. 10929. The moment that theii- tejni of impri- sonment was over they would bo discharged, and of course they would be loft to get cured as best they could ? — Yes, and to spread disease as long as they liked. 10!»30. At Question 43.54, Mr. Cooper is asked, " But you think that with all these good motives on the part of matrons and others con- cerned in the management of tliese institutions, they work under a certain disadvanl.ige with re- gard to the moral condition, and the chances of reclamation of the inmates, because they work in a compulsory institution?" And his answer is, " Quite so ; in our case the women are all with us ; in their case the women are all against them." That is a very strong statement ; is that borne out by your experience ? — I would like to refer the Committee to a list that I have pre- pared. Having seen these remarks, I have a few cases here as illustrations of our actual work : this is a list of 20 eases which have occurred during the present year, and I can put my finger on each woman and tell the Committee where she is ; I have a few cases on the back sheet which go over a number of years. ( The Return was delivered in.) Chairman. 10931. Arc those cases showing that the women co-operate with you to their reformation ? — It is to this end : the first case is the case of a girl called Elizabeth Moore ; she has no father or mother ; she was registered, and signed her submission on the 7th of January : she expressed her wish, after being found free from disease, to go to a home, and ]Mrs. Marshall received her into the liefuge on the same day ; that girl had signed a submission for a given time ; she was found free from disease, and went direct from the waiting-room to the Refuge ; she is 1 5 years old, and is now in the Hampton Home, Plymouth. I should like to mention another case which I have put next : a woman came in from the north of Devon ; that woman is 40 years old ; she had been leading an immora! life there for a limited time ; she was examined, and found free from disease. The editor of the " "Western Morning News," who often helps in these cases, put a paragraph in that paper, and a situation was obtained for her at Totnes by the help of Archdeacon Earle, and she is in that situation now. 10932. Did she come iu voluntarily? — She was found in a brothel, and was told that she would have to submit to the Acts. She signed a submis- sion for 12 months, but two days after she had signed that submission she came to me at six o'clock in the evening. I communicated with Mr. Groser, the editor of the '• Western Morning News," and he put a paragraph in the paper, and a situation was obtained for her. Mr. Oshorne 3Iorgan. 10933. I take it that these women are quite as submissive to you as they would be to anybody who was trying to reclaim them? — I think very much more so. Those 20 cases have come to me of their own will since the 1st January 1882. 10934. Have you succeeded in saving many of SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 457 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. [ Continued. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued, of these girls where other influences have failed? — I have. 10935. Referring to Question 4379, can you tell the Committee in what proportions as re- gards periods these submissions are signed ; how many, for instance, during the last year signed for 12 months, and how many for six months, and three months, and so on ? — I have looked out the numbers. I think last year there were not quite 200 that signed for six months; a few signed for one, two, and three months, and I think the number was about 40 that signed for four months. I set a man to go through the list, ha^ving seen the assertion ; and I beg to say that the women sign for various periods, from one to 12 months. Chairman, 1 0936. I see in the paper which you have put in the cases of three women who, it is stated, came to the inspector the day after they married, and brought with them their marriage certifi- cates ; did they, before getting married, have their names taken off the register? — No, these women were, up to the time of their marrying, in brothels registered, and attending for exami- nation. In each case they had been examined a i&w days before, and found free from disease. They thoroughly understand that if that is the case, if they bring their marriage certificates, they are not compelled to attend again for exa- mination. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 10937. A marriage certificate operates as a discharge, in fact ? — It is so. Chairman, 10938. Their names are taken off the register immediately ? — They are ; and so it is if a girl goes into service. It matters not how long she has signed for. The only fast rule we have is to make sure that a woman is free from disease before she is removed. Mr. Oshorne Morgan, 10939. It is intimated to them that all that they have to do to exempt themselves from the operation of the Acts is to give up their immoral life? — That is so. There is no trouble spared to explain that. It matters not what age they are. Further, I may say that they are told that help will be found for them to send them any- where to their friends, or to place them in homes. 10940. So that, in fact, every inducement is given to them to leave this immoral life and get off the register ? — Yes. 10941. It is not true that the door is closed against them?— It is positively untrue; a false- hood. 10942. You know that the evidence of Mr. Cooper and of all the other witnesses dwells upon this, that the greatest blot of the Acts is that it is made so difficult for the women to leave their lives, and, in fact, that the door is closed against them; is that so? — It is not so. By these false statements a large number of good thinking people have been led into that belief ; and they believe it, but it is a deliberate untruth. 0.75. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued. 10943. Is it not the case that they are warned to give up their evil habits before they are regis- tered? — In every case. If a girl is found in a brothel she is reminded what the house is, and she is told what she will have to do if she remains there. 10944. I believe they know whereto apply for help if they wish to leave their immoral life ; that they would have to come to you, and that you would put them in the way of being restored to a virtuous life ; is that so ? — It is so. I have fixed times for the duties, and they know when those times occur ; and beyond this, they can see me either at six o'clock every evening or nine o'clock in the morning, if they are desirous of giving up their immoral lives. 10945. They can see you for the pui-pose of putting them in the way of giving up their evil courses ? — It is so, and I point them to ladies who I know will help them. 10946. There is another matter which weighs strongly with me. It is all very well to talk about a woman being restored to a moral and respectable life: but is it possible for one of these women in the horrible state of disease that she would be in if not properly cured, to take the steps necessai-y for her reclamation ; is it not absolutely necessary, before you can think of putting a woman in a proper moral condition, that her physical condition should be looked after ? — I hold that very strongly. I look upon it as a crime to send a woman who is diseased with syphilis into a family, amongst children, to milk cows, or to do any domestic work. 10947. While she is contaminated with disease, it is absurd to talk about her moral reclamation ? — It is, and I know it in practice. 10948. Mr. Gledstone says that the women cannot write, and that they have to apply to some one to make out their written request for relief from the Acts; is that the fact? — That is incorrect. I presume that Mr. Gledstone must have been informed so. The facts are these: every woman who continues in a brothel has to make application for relief unless she is married or has gone into service, or, on the other hand, has left the hospital, discharged as cured. In those cases it is not necessary ; the law pro- vides that they shall be at once removed. But a woman is never made to go through the ordinary form of making the application in writing, unless she continues in a brothel, and then she makes an application to the medical officer. He sends me a certificate, which I, in every case, fill up for the woman and sign it. I tell her that she has to clear out of the brothel and get into respect- able lodgings, and as soon as she has done that, her name is removed by the medical officer. 10949. Are not those applications for exemp- tion on printed forms ? — I'hey are, and they are filled up by myself, or if I am away, the Serjeant has orders to do it. 10950. So that there is no diflScnIty whatever in these women getting off the register if they wish to do so ? — Not the slightest. Chairman. 10951. Do many cases come before you of applications from women actually on the register who are anxious to leave the brothels in which 3 M they 458 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. [^Continued. (.'hairmaii — continued, they are living? — A large number. It is a daily occurrence. 10952. Then the thing is not a dead letter by any means? — Not by any means. A young girl came into the town only Hi years old, a big girl of her age ; the brothel keeper knew tiiat she dare not keep her in her house, and she brought her on to me at six o'clock, and I ])asscd her on to the Refuge, No. 2, Octagon- street, Plymouth. Mr. Cavendish Bentinck. 1095;i. She was thus, tlirough your instrumen- tality, saved from entering upon a life of pros- titution? — i'es. She said she had never been with any man, and possibly she might not have been. Jlr. Oshurne Morgan. 10954. Is there any difficulty in a woman who has been under the Contagious Discuses Acts obtaining honest employment ? — Yes, tliere is very great dithculty. People do not like to employ such women. But at the same time we have an agency in Plymouth, and if it is known that they are free from disease, they get employ- ment ; employment is obtained for a good many. 10955. But as a matter of fact, it is not an im- possible thing for a woman who has been on the register to obtain honest em])loyment afterwards? — No. I quoted the case of a woman 40 years old who was sent to Totncs the other day. She was examined and found free from disease, and a situation was obtained for her. Chairman. 1095G. I suppose there is no greater difficulty in obtaining employment in the case of a regis- tered woman tiian in the case of any woman who has been notoriously on the streets in an un- subjectcd district? — Clearly not. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 10957. It is the fact of the woman being a prostitute, and not the fixct of her being a i-egistered prostitute, which operates to prevent people taking her into service ? — It is so ; but people in our district know very little about women being registered; they do not ask the question. They find out whether a woman has been a prostitute or not. 10958. In answer to Question S.'iS'J, l\Irs. Josephine Butler says : " The only fallen women I have seen who are, I should say, humanly speaking, hopeless, are those subjected to these regulations. They seem to me utterly hard." Do you find, as far as your experience goes, that it is the case that these women are so hardened when they have been once on the register ? — I have prepared that list wliicli I have handed in to give illustrations. There are 20 cases there, and they varj' from 15 to 40 years of age. Two of them were old prostitutes ; one of them was 40. Annie Bottons has been in prison several times, she came direct from prison, and asked me to send her to a home. Another had been a kept mistress, she came to me in the same way. I could quite understand Mrs. Butler's remarks, which I read with a great deal of care and anxiety. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. Those people who were standing by her, as it were, advised tliose girls to resist the Acts, and they got sent to jirison, after which they natu- rally did turn on Mrs. Butler, Mr. Cooper, and these ])eoj)le. They resented it, because those people induced them to break the law, and get into prison. Hut they arc not so with people who carry out the Acts. They know where to come for help when the}' are inclined to give up the life that they arc leading. 10959. Mrs. Butler says: "There is too much hatred and bitterness in the heart of the regis- tered women to receive such a message from an officer of the Government." Is that your ex- perience ? — It is entirely contrary to the fact ; INIrs. Butler could not have known what she was talking about. 10960. Has Mrs. Butler been to Plymouth ?— She has. 10961. As a matter of fact, do not fallen women and their friends seek advice, counsel, and aid from the officials employed to carry out these Acts ? — That is the daily experience ; they do. 10962. You state that, I suppose, from your own knowledge? — Yes, I could give you a list of names of f\ny length. 10963. Mrs. Butler say.s that the agitation against the Acts has gradually increased; is that the case in Plymouth?— No ; there has been no gradual increase or decrease. 10964. Was it spontaneous? — Yes; it was got up principally by a miserable letter, of which I have a copy, from the " Shield " of 1 870. As far as our district is concerned the agitation lias entirely died out. 10965. These meetings, which have been re- ferred to by the witnesses against the Acts as having been held at Plymouth, took place a long time ago, did they not? — Yes. 10966. You have put in a very valuable letter from Mr. Adams, who is the clerk to the board of guardians; have j'ou also a letter from Mrs. Marshall, the founder of a refuge in Plymouth? — Yes; she is the founder of the refuge in Oc- tagon-street. 10967. That letter is as follows: " In reply to your inquiry to-day, I am very glad to have just time enough to give my written testimony in favour of your work ; I can but speak sincerely as to its great value, having seen during the past five years its good eft'ccts most practically shown, in the shutting up of a great many utterly immoral houses ; and in one instance, the clear- ing away of a whole street of them entirely through its agency ; and, notably, one most notorious house, No. 8, Buckland-street, and another in Central-street, the occupiers of which had defied for a long time all attempts to close them. And I can honestly speak as to the judi- cious and kindly manner in whicli your difficult work is carried on. In all my experience during the past five years (both in London and in Ply- mouth), when visiting from house-to-house, and in the work of our Kefuge, I have never heard the slightest complaint against any of the men employed in it ; and in evidence of this I may say, on the contrary, that I know many poor girls have asked them of their own accord to take them to a place of safety; and they, on their SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 459 16 June 1882.] Inspector Anniss. \_Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, their part, have many times induced young strangers to come to our Refuge, tlius aiding our three-fold cord, preventative and rescue work very considerably. You are perfectly at liberty to make what use you like of this letter. My own feeling has always been that of thankfulness for the beneficial results of the work of the Contagious Diseases Acts here. In conclusion, I have only to add that it has been represented to me most strongly by several phj'sicians of high standing, who are likewise general prac- titioners, that not only ought these Acts to be put in force in eveiy town in the United King- dom, but in every village too ; and that they ought to be extended to the men also. I en- close some of our apjDcals, which you may be able to distribute ; for we feel that the press- ing needs of our poor degraded sisters, and of all that tends to aid them, cannot be too widely known. — Yours, &c., (Mrs.) L. Frances Mar- shall." Mrs. Marshall is connected with the " Threefold Cord " Society in Plymouth for the rescue of girls and women, is she not? — Yes; the " Threefold Cord "means the congregations of three Church of England parishes. 10968. Has not a Mrs. Stidstou, who visits the prison, also written to you ? — Yes, she lives in another part of the town ; she has also taken a very active part in this work. 10969. Will you read htr letter to you? — She writes : '•' Dear Mr. Annis, — I desired to see you before you left for London, and regret that I had no opportunity for doing so, as there is so much one can say that cannot so well be written. Nevertheless, I should like to add my testimony to what I believe to be the beneficial working of the Contagious Diseases Acts in our three towns. I well remember in my girlhood's days residing with my dear parents at tiie ' Old Victualling- Office ' (a spot situate between the garrison and Barbican Quay), at a time when the immorality of the locality was so flagrant that we were seldom allowed to pass the one. and never the other, unless protected by the ^Jresence of some one very well known to the inhabitants, and this in addition to the municipal constablularyi Now much as I rejoice to know that various religious and philanthropic efforts are being, and have been, put forth to ameliorate the condition of the poor unfortunate outcast, and as I am sure all such must be recognised among men, and will meet its reward in Heaven, yet I am bound to express my conviction (which is shared in by many) that this alone has not effected the great change in the moral atmosphere of our streets, &c., seeing that Christian labour was even more strenously put forth then than now. Our dear friends who are somewhat opposed to the Acts say to me, ' Oh, some of the poor creatures who are subjected to examination, &c., lose all self respect, and others break down with sorrow under the mortification of what is considered an ordeal.' Now to this I reply (I speak from personal observation), the sense of shame and moral degradation have been lost Mr. Osborne Morgan — conimweA. where possibly it may have existed) before this crisis arrives, and I have not met with one on whom I think it has operated injuriously, but have, with others who have expressed themselves with gratitude to all who have helped rid them of the vilest disease which results from a life of sin ; and one important (if not the most impor- tant) welcome of the working of the Acts is the so considerably lessening the number of brothels, and the rescuing the children whose homes are therein. Praying that God in His mercy will continue to bless you in rescuing many poor souls and bodies from present and eternal ruin, and that you may be the honoured instrument of directing manj' sinners to the Saviour who taketh away the sin of the world, — I am, &c., Mary B. Stidston." I iiave also another letter from another lady sent me this morning. She writes as follows : — " Dear Sir, I have much pleasure in writing to express the very high opinion I have of the work you are doing in Plymouth. Being connected with you in a work we are doing in rescuing the fallen, I cannot speak too highly of the great and important work you are carrying on here, and the immense help you are to us, and your very great kindness in your manner of dealing with the young girls, and in many cases finding them out, bringing them to us at the very onset of their sinful life. I feel sure only those who come in contact with you in your work know how very valuable it is, and how much it conduces to the welfare and morality of our town ; and I trust, with God's blessing, you will long be spared to your labour. — Believe me, yours, &c., Charlotte M. Huish." 10970. All these letters are, I presume, from persons who are competent to speak upon this subject ? — They are from ladies in different parts of the district who are engaged in reclama- tion work. 10971. Can you put in a return of women sent to penitentiaries or homes from the Koyal Albert HosjDital during 12 years, signed by the chairman and the matron? — Yes. {The same was delivered in.) 10972. Do you also j3roduce a return showing the number of brothel keepers reported to the naval and military authorities by the Contagious Diseases Acts' police for various causes from 1870 to 1881, inclusive? — I do. {The same was deli- vered in.) 10973. Do you also produce a return showing the cases in which brothel keepers have been prosecuted and convicted on the evidence of the Contagious Diseases Acts' police before the ma- gistrates or at sessions and assize courts ? — I do. {The same was delivered in.) 10974. Do you also produce a return showing the number of females prevented from adopting an immoral life, and the number who have discon- tinued to lead immoral lives in consequence of the operations of the Contagious Diseases Acts, as also the number temporarily removed from brothels by those Acts ? — Yes. ( The same was delivered in.) 0.75. 3 M 2 460 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Tuesdaj/, 20 f A June 1882. MEMBERS PRESENT : 'Sir. Cavendish Bentinck. Mr. Bulwcr. j\Ir. Burt. Colonel Digby. Dr. F.irquharson. Mr. "WillLim Fowler. ]\Ir. Hopwood. Mr. Osborne Morgan. Mr. O'Shaiighncssy. l\Ir. Stansfcld. Sir Henry Wolft'. Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY, in the Cu.vir. The Eev. Canon James Hegartt, called In ; and Examined. Mr. Oihorne Morgan. 10975. I believe you ha^ e been engaged in clerical duties in the centre of tlie city of Cork, in tiic parish of St. Peter and St. Paul, during a considerable jieriod ? — Yes, for 10 years. I became attached to the church in 1872. 10976. ilay I ask what is your position ? — I am administrator of the parish under tlie bishop. It is a bishop's parish. 10977. I think that you are also spiritual director of two Roman Catholic confraternities? — Yes, one male and the otlier female. 10978. In what parish? — In that parish. 10979. I jtresume, tlierefore, that you are in daily communication with your flock, and par- ticularly, as a Koman Catholic clergyman, with the poorer and more depraved portion of it? — Yes. 10980. You liavc had considerable experience in otht-r jiarts of the world, have you not ? — Yes, I have travelled a great deal ; I have been to America for two and a half vears. 10981. Vou said tliat you had been 10 years engaged in parochial work in the city of Cork ; had you known the city before that? — Very intimately. I was born within four miles of the city, and I went to school there, and lodged there : and then I Avas in two of the adjoining suburban parisiies. 10982. Then I may take it that you knew Cork both before and alter the year 1869; I think that was the time when Cork was subjected to the Contagious Diseases Acts ? — That was the time. 10983. Could you tell me, from your know- ledge of the city, both before and after tlie year 1869, whether, as regards public morality and public decency, there has been any improvement in the town since th.at time ? — There has been the greatest jtossible improvement since 1869 ; for, whilst before 1869 no respectable person, no female especially, could walk the streets after dark without the most offensive things meeting both ear and eye that could possibly come under the notice of anyone ; all that has changed since, and the reformation in the habits and manners even of the fallen and degraded women is most wonderful. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 10984. You are speaking, I suppose, more immediately of those of your own religion? — I speak of all ; I include all. "When these people are to be spoken to I make no distinction ; I do not know what religion they belong to, but I accost them and speak to them ; and I iiave the same opportunities of knowing the Protestants, or those who are not Catholics, as of knowing those that are Catholics. 10985. And you say that, as regards the city generally, and particularly as regards its female population, there has been a great improvement, al any rate, in outward decency and morality ? — A very great improvement. 10986. You say, first of all, that the improve- ment was contemporaneous with the introduction of the Contagious Diseases Acts? — It resulted from it immediately, as far as I could see, and I will explain why I say so. Early in the year 1870 I went to America, and stayed there until November 1872 : and, wlien I came back, after two yeai's and four months, or two years and five months' absence, I saw that this ameliora- tion of the condition of the people had taken place. 10987. During that time the Contagious Diseases Acts had been in operation, had they not? — They had come into operation in 1869. 10988. Now, I go further, and I ask you whether j'ou can connect that improvement with the introduction of the Contagious Diseases Acts, and, if so, how ? — Principally on account of the co-operation which the clergy have met with from the oflicei-s and those who were authorised to enforce the Acts ; and, secondly, on account of the existence of the Lock Hospital. That had a surprising humanising influence on those who were brought to that hosijital and those who were subjected to the treatment, whatever it was there ; and I consider that that was the principal cause, together with the zeal of the clergy, all co-operating and combining. 10989. VVould you say this, that the admission of these women to the Lock Hospital brings them under the influence of the clergy, and, of course, under those influences which the clergy are 20 June 1882.]' SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS, Rev. Canon Hegarty. 461 [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, are able to bring to bear upon them ? — Certainly; there is a chaplain in the Lock Hospital. 10990. A good deal has been said about the deterrent effect, upon young girls especially, of these Acts ; have you any observations to make upon that point ? — I have personal experience of it almost every month, every week I might say ; because, when a young girl was seen to be out at night, when she was suspected, when her parents, or friends, or relatives, drew the attention of the clergy to it, I, for one, was in the habit of saying to her : " Now, if you continue this course of life, if you are seen to associate with recognised bad women, we shall hear of your being some day or another summoned to the hospital, or at least appearing at the hospital." This deterred them from associating with such people, and I have known at least two or three instances of girls who were certainly leading lives that would lead us to suspect that they were becoming bad, going away immediately out of the city. 10991. Then, do I correctly understand you to say that in this way the power of the professional prostitutes to draw other Avomen into the paths of sin is greatly lessened? — Undoubtedly. They were agents and instruments, or emissaries, of everything vile, in order to decoy others into a similar life. Their constant expression to us is; " Well, there are a great many others bad as well as I;" and the effect of the Acts, to my mind, has been, as much as possible, to narrow and circumscribe the evil influence of those women. 10992. To isolate them and to separate them from girls who are on the border land between levity and immorality ? — Just so. 10993. I gather that it does not follow that if the conduct of a girl is merely characterised by what we should call levity, the police at once put her upon the register ? — Certainly not ; I never knew an instance of it. 1099-1. Do you know of any complaints as to the conduct of the police in Cork? — I never heard of such a complaint. 10995. You never heard of any case of any woman being placed upon the register who ought not to have been j^laced there ? — I never heard any complaint either from the women themselves, or from any friends of theirs. 10996. Do you think that from the responsible and important position you hold, j^ou would have heard such complaints if they had existed ? — I am perfectly certain that they could not have been made without my knowledge. 10997. I think you said that one of the bene- ficial results of these Acts was, that manj' of these women were brought to the hospital and so sub- jected to the excellent influences of the clergy; could you give us any instances of these women being j^ersuaded to enter the Magdalen Asylum, or to emigrate, or of their being in any other way restored to a virtuous and respectable life after being in hospital ? — I have known a great many instances of the chaplain having such in- fluence with them, that they undertook to abandon their bad lives ; that applies to both the late chaplain and his successor. Father Reed, who was also attached to the church that I belong to ; he was sacristan of our church, and he was chaplain to another hospital in the parish. He 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, was every day in the church ; he was, in one word, one of the staff of our church, and I was in daily and almost hourly communication with him, and I heard him say from time to time of every girl that he was able to effect such an im- provement or reformation as to induce her to enter a convent, or to go to the Magdalen, or to New York, and to begin a totally reformed life. I know of his having succeeded in ever so many instances. 10998. You have no numerical return which you could give us, but you know of many cases in which that good work has been effected ?— - Yey, certainly. 10999. Going to another topic, it is a fact, is it not, that a good many recognised houses of ill-fame have been suppressed in Cork, in the course of the last few years ? — They have all been suppressed. There is not any recognised house of ill-fame in Cork at present. 11000. But there were formerly such houses, were there not ? — Yes, certainly. 11001. In 1869, before the Acts came into operation, how many houses of ill-fame were there ? — There were three houses in one quarter, which was called North-street ; and then there was one very low and depraved quarter of the city called Furze's Alley, which was, I should say, within an area of a quarter-of-a-mile square, or less than that ; and in that there were ever so many houses ; they were all very small and very poor, and I could not tell how many there were. The whole place has been levelled since, and the alley opened ; but there were a great many houses there, where the very worst class of these women were huddled together. 11002. To what do you attribute that suppres- sion of brothels ; can you connect it with any particular action ? — One very zealous clergyman commenced in that parish where this very low haunt was, and where there were very many per- sons robbed and plundered. A girl came out from there one day to him, and said she wished to reform ; but she said that her clothes were kept there, and she could not get out. We actually went into the midst of them, and demanded the clothes of this young girl. 11003. Was that Father Reed? — No, this was another clergyman. Having got there, he said he did not see why he should not try to break up such a den altogether ; and he walked up and down the alleys and lanes of the place for a day, and began to see what effect he could pro- duce upon them, and how many were willing to be reformed if they were only accosted or spoken to. He continued the crusade for four or five days until he succeeded in getting an immense majority of them into the Magdalen Asylum, or in getting them to reform their lives, or to go away, or in restoring them to their friends. 11001. Of course I need not ask you whether by far the larger portion of the population of Cork is not Catholic ? — The population is 80,000, and the greater majority of them are Catholics ; there are 63,000 Catholics. Chairman. 11005. When was that crusade? — In 1876 or 1877. 3 M 3 11006. Do i62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 20 June 1882.] Rev. Canon Hegakty. \_Continued. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 11006. Do you know wliuther iu those efforts to supi)ress these houses of ill-fame, your brother clergy have been assisted by the Contagious Diseases Acts constabulary ? — Certainly, most ably and efficiently everywhere. We have not only reason to acknowledge the co-operation of the police officers connected with the administra- tion of this Act, but we have reason to feel in- debted to them, because wlicre it was possible to save a young girl from being brought under the influence of the Act, they have from time to time assisted us most ably in preventing her from lead- ing a life of crime. 1 lOOG.* I suppose from tlieir position and duties no body of men could possibly be more fitted to assist you in that work than the constabulary under these Acts? — I do not believe there could be in the world more conscientious respectable gentlemen than those connected with the admi- nistration of the Acts. Cliairman. 11007. As I understand there arc two or three of the constabulary told off for this special duty, dressed in plain clothes ? — Yes, tliose are the men that I i"efer to. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 11008 You have said that they were as con- scientious as any men could be ; and I suppose that, in addition to their being conscientious, tlie duties which they are told off to perform neces- sarily enable them to assist you to a greater extent than the ordinary police could do ; is not that so? — That is the case; and they made an impression upon me, moreover, as if they wished to be able to avoid bringing any young girl under the operation of the Acts, so that she might be saved from a life of infamy. 1 ] 009. In fact, their efforts have rather been to keep girls off the register than to put them on ? — Certainly. 1 1010. A good deal of evidence has been given before the Committee as to girls being brought upon the register who ought not to have been there ; tliat is not your view ? — Certainly not. 11011. As you have already stated, the great mass of the population are your own flock ; I suppose that, if a young girl began to absent herself from work, and to keep late hours, the suspicions naturall}', both of the constabulary and yourself, would be aroused ; what would happen then? — I have repeatedly addressed those con- fraternities that I spoke of, of men and women, from the pulpit, and asked their zealous co-opera- tion in putting a check or stop to this vice ; and I have imposed it as a matter of conscience upon them to inform some of the clergy, if they con- scientiously had reason to believe that any young person was going astray, or beginning to go astray, because she could not keep out at night without one or other of them meeting her from time to time or seeing her. Then they, or much more frequently the mother, or the sister, or the father of such a young girl, would come to the clergy, and we should immediately bring our in- fluence to beai' upon her. By those means we know always even those who cannot be ap- proached by the police ; we know who those are that are on the verge of going to ruin. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued. 11012. Are you assisted in making that dis- covery by the constabulary under the Acts ? — Most efficiently, because I have frequently asked and got information about such persons being seen out late at night when they were not posi- tively bad, and there was no reason for believing tiuit they were bad. 11013. Have any recent cases come under your knowledge in which you have been able to accomplish that good work ? — I have had two or three cases of it where I, myself, succeeded in inducing young girls to get away to America to their friends, and they are going on s])lcndidly, I have one j)articular instance before my mind of a young girl who was out very late and who, I believe, would certainly have become one of the most depraved if she had not been seen and some kind friend spoken to about it. I remember going to the police, the two or three men whose duty it is to look after these people in the streets, to ask about her ; and they told me that they did see her in the streets, and that she was leading a very dan>ierous life, to say the least of it. 11014. In that way, by communication with the police charged with the administration of the Acts, are you enabled to bring to bear on those girls these good influences which, otherwise, you would not have been able to bring to bear? — Certainly. These girls arc in the habit of saying, " What have I done ? Who saw me ? Who can tell anything?" They are in the habit of defying us at first ; but when we mention an instance where they were seen so late at night (because we have got that from the police) they cannot deny it, and then they surrender at once. 1 101 J. With regai-d to clandestine prostitution, you are aware that a great deal has been said upon that subject? — Yes; I have been pained by hearing what has been said; I have read Mr. Kingston's evidence with very great pain. If I were allowed, I would give you an instance that calls my particular attention to this. A gentle- man, who said he was an Englishman and a Protestant, approached me one day in the church, and said : " Why, sir, this is a wonderful city of yours. I have come here as a tourist ; I arrived at the hotel after nine o'clock last night, which was Saturday night; I accosted eight or nine respectably di-essed girls who were prowling about alone, and who I thought were fair game for the mischievous course that I was bent upon; but I was spurned by every one of them, and it appears to me as if there were no fallen women in your city, or if there are, it is very hard to find them." I was pleased at hearing that. That is some four or live years ago. Chairman. IIOIG. !May I ask why you make a point of the man having been a Protestant? — Because he came and told me the next day. I make no particular point of it, except that he was a total stranger in the city. He said : " I know you are a Catholic clergyman, and I do not belong to your persuasion." 11017. I suppose you mean that a testimony coming from a stranger and a Protestant appeared to you to be all the stronger ? — Certainly. He volunteered it to me, and that evidence is all the stronger. SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 463 20 June 1882.] Rev. Canon Hegarty. \_Continued. Chairman — continued, stronger, because he was a stranger and did not belong to my denomination or religion. Mr. Oshorne Morgan. 11018. You are aware that Air. Kingston has spoken of work girls and sliop assistants practi- sing this vice of clandestine prostitution ; would you confirm that ? — There is a total absence of any proof of that. There is no reason in the world why any such allegation should be made, for I consider that if there was such clandestine prostitution or vice, there would be illegitimate children born; there would be cases of infanticide ; there would be cases of girls flying from their homes to hide their infamy or shame ; there would be some one of the evidences that are found everywhere. 11019. And those evidences are wanting? — Totally wanting. There are not only far fewer illegitimate children than in former times, before 1869 or 1870, but they are reduced to the lowest possible number that could be supposed in any city with a population of 80,000 people. Then, again, more than any other thing in the world, our people are excessively scrupulous about having children baptised at birth. When an ille- gitimate child was born, the neighbours would seize the new-born babe and rush with it to church to have it baptised, if there was the slightest danger of its dying before baptism, so that we should know, and we do know, that there are not many illegitimate births, and consequently 1 conclude that there can be no clandestine prostitution. 11020. As regards the illegitimate births, of course your functions, as a priest, would naturally enable you to speak with absolute authority upon the subject ? — We must register them all, and we are bound to register a child which is illegitimate in the parish register. If a child is brought for baptism, we must know the history of the parents, and if the father does not appear we are bound to ascertain where he is ; if he is a soldier or a sailor, or absent on some duty. Chairman. 11021. Yon would not be at liberty to state any general result of your experience in the confessional? — I do not give any of my experi- ence from the confessional. 11022. Not even generally? — Not even gene- rally. I speak of what comes under my notice as a citizen, and as administrator of the pnrish . Mr. Osborne Morgan. 11023. Of course all these allegations as to clandestine prostitution must rest upon very slender foundations, must they not, inasmuch as the fact of the prostitution being clandestine shows that it must be very diflScult to prove ? — Certainly. 11024. Then your experience as a priest is that clandestine prostitution does not exist to any ap- preciable extent in Cork? — I am perfectly cer- tain that it does not exist to any extent that could at all be noticed ; and for another reason : two or three times within the past eight or ten years I have been spoken to by physicians or medical gentlemen of the city, and they have told me (without mentioning the names, of course), of their having been asked in a case here and there 0.75. Mr. Oshorne Morgan — continued, of some young girl having got into trouble, to co- operate in procuring abortion for these people. They mentioned this as a case which was unheard of, or which did not frequently occur ; and that would prove to us that the cases are very few in number. 11025. You have read Mr. Kingston's evi- dence, have you not ? — Yes. 11026. At Question 2566, Mr. Stansfeld asks this : " As to the condition of the streets of the city, are there more or less open scenes of indecency and vice now than used to be exhibited there ?" and the answer is : " In one way there is a great deal more, because they have not so many brothels now, and they take every opportunity of going into the streets and roads outside the city to practise prostitution." Is that correct ?— Whatever prostitution there is takes place outside the city as a rule, and there is none of it whatsoever inside the city now, whilst formerly it was frequently met with. But the reason why the people say that the streets are worse than evei-, and that there is more private or clandestine prostitution, is because it - has been made horribly expensive forbad men to gratify their passions under the present arrange- ment ; there is no possibility of their doing so, except by their meeting one of these women, and hiring a car, and dri%-ing ofl" a mile or so outside the city ; and late at night the car hire is double what it is in the day, and being at the mere}' of the driver, they pay for it at a very high rate. Such people as that try to j)ropagate the idea that things are worse than ever, and that the street is full of young giids who are going astray. Young girls are working all day, and they must walk and take the air at night; but they are not bad, and scenes of immorality are not witnessed in the streets now, or very rarely. 11027. What is the condition of the streets now as compared with what it was before 1869 or 1870? — The streets are peaceable now, and the most respectable ladies may walk the streets at night without seeing or hearing what is oifensive. Formerly it was impossible for them to pass without being insulted at every step. 11028. Coming back to the question of clan- destine prostitution, Mr. Kingston is asked this question at No. 2569, by Mr. Stansfeld: "Then you would say that vice is now pursued more secretly ; for instance, the prostitution of clan- destine prostitutes must be pursued more secretly ?" and his answer is : " And so it is." I understood you to say that it is quite true that vice, if pursued at all, must be pursued more secretly ; but as a matter of fact, there is no increase of clandestine prostitution ? — 'I believe there is not. 11029. The next question is, "Taking not the heart of the city, but ihe outskirts of the city, which are not so much under the eye of the police, to a careful observer like yourself, is there more or less vice apparent than there used to be " ? And the answer is, " I have shuddered at seeing the enormous increase of vice." That was a strong thing to say ; is that your experi- ence ? — I have not seen it ; I have no reason wliich would justify the expression. If j\Ir. Kingston has seen it I have not ; there is one 3 M 4 matter 464 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 20 June 1882.] Eev. Canon Hegarty. [^Continved. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, matter which excited our pain and curiosity at the same time. After a regiment of soldiers ai'rives in the city, they are in the habit of pick- ing up young girls and getting married to them as fast as possible ; not later than the last two months, I have heard the pastor of St. Vatrick's j>arish repeat the same. " I do not know how in the world all these soldiers arriving here ])ick u]) these young girls so fast, for we are annoyed with reading notices from the altar denouncing the marriages that take i)lacc before the regis- trar, or before Protestant clergymen of these girls to those men." They cannot get married in our church, unless there is a dispensation from the Pope after a good deal of trouble ; here they can walk straight into the church and be mar- ried before a Protestant clergyman, or they can be married before a registrar. The fact of girls walking with soldiers seems to be considered by some sensitive jieople as justifying them in say- ing that there is more crime. " Walk out along the road and see what you will see there every night," they say; "you will see young girls walking with soldiers " ; no doubt you will, but there is no misconduct 1 1030. And these walks that you allude to result in marriage '<■ — They result in marriage. 11031. I presume, of course, that like every other clergyman, your duties take you about at all times of the night ? — Yes. 11032. And in many quarters of the town? — Yes. 11033. And if there had been this terrible increase of vice at which Mr. Kingston shudders, you would have seen something of it yourself? — Certainly, and not only that, but I would feel bound to take cognisance of it instantly, and not to allow these peojile to escape from under my eye until I succeeded in giving the women at least into the hands of the police, if anything like indecent behaviour in the streets came under my notice ; I did do that in one instance, last March twelvemonths. 11034. Still I understand you to say that those cases are very rare j -Yer y rare. 71035. Has there been much opposition to these Acts in Cork ? —None whatsoever, so far as I know. "\Ye have seen the walls posted and placarded occasionally at the instance of those who wanted to have a meeting held there to draw public attention to " these infamous Acts," or something of that kind, and several epithets have been ap])lied to them ; but I could never see the least enthusiasm roused in the public mind against the Acts, nor could I find any person who objected to them. Those outside of our community who have put out these placards I have not come in contact with ; but 1 speak now of those who are not Catholics as well as of those who are, for I am in equally friendly intercourse with them all. I liave not heard .any one object to the Acts, or to the administration of them, except Mr. Kings- ton's evidence. Chairman. 11036. Have you inquired? — I have inquired; I have even drawn people out in conversation upon it, who I thought would take that view, and I thought I might learn something from them, or find out their reasons. !Mr. Osborne Mor(jan. 11037. Of course, you know that there has been a strong agitation against the Acts else- where ? — I know that. Our presence there is a proof of that. 11038. As far as the citizens of Cork are con- cerned, are you prepared to say that that the agitation is disaj)proved of? — I know the citizens, and I have taken particular pains to ascertain the entire truth about it, and I must say that everyone that I came in contact with looks upon the administration of the Acts as being the most judicious, the most humane, and the most merci- ful that could possibly be. Mr. Stansfeld. 11039. You stated in the beginning of your evidence that there had been a great improve- ment in public order since the year 1869, which was the date of the introduction of the Contagious Diseases Acts in Cork ; but you did not explain to us how the Acts themselves had been instru- mental in improving the condition of the streets? — I take it for granted that the administration of the Acts has been cliiefly instrumental in that, because it first and foremost drew the line be- tween those who were professed prostitutes and those who were not. When once the registered prostitutes were isolated from the rest of the community, they were forced to keep quiet, they knew that thfy were under the surveillance of the police, and that they were known to be pros- titutes. Whilst I say that there has been an impi-ovement in the state of the streets, I see no other causes to attribute it to. Then I say that there came in co-operation with that, or rather the two combining, tlie activity of the clergy. Whilst I believe that perhaps there was as ranch vice elsewhere, I believe that nowhere in Ireland, unfortunately for us, has there been more gross, open, barefaced vice th.an in our city. Somehow or another things were allowed to grow, so that fallen women did not hesitate to lead a man to the nearest lane almost under the eyes of the public. Then they used outrageously indecent language in the streets whilst under the influence of drinlc, and that has been suppressed. 11040. 1 suppose ihat proceedings have been instituted against women who acted riotously or indecently in the public streets ? — The laws are the same as they were formerly. We all tried to rouse the activity of the constabulary and of the police magistrates, and asked them to inflict severe fines. T took occasion to go to the police court on four or five occasions, and prosecuted some of them myself, and tried to rouse tlie zeal of the public against such indecent behaviour. 11041. When was this? — This has been going on since November 1872, since I came into the jtarish. 11042. You, in fact, commenced these endea- vours ? — In a very mild way ; I did not do so more than others. 11043. But that was the period when you came back to Cork, and when you came back you commenced these endeavours, and you ap pealed in your endeavours to secure greater decency and order in the streets to the ordinary magistracy and to the ordinary police, did you not?— SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 465 20 June 1882.] Eev. Canon Hegartt. ^Continued. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. not ? — Yes, sometimes. I did so on these few occasions. 11044. Under what Acts of Parliament were these prosecutions instituted? — I declare 1 do not know. I only went to the court, and I said, " If there be an Act of Parliament to enable you to punish such grossly indecent behaviour, I would wish it to be applied to these people." Chairman. 11045. Bur you are aware that it was not done under the Contagious Diseases Acts? — I am aware that it was not, and I am not speaking of appealing to the police who have the manage- naent of those Acts, but to the police dressed as constables. ^Ir. Stansfeld. 1104ti. Can you teil me how many Contagious Diseases Acts' constables there are in Cork? — I know two or three only ; I suppose there are more. 11047. However, the number is a limited number '. — Very limited. 11048. But in 1872 that condition of order in the streets to which you refer had not been com- pletel}' gained? — No, but there was a great im- provement. 11049. And then the efforts of yourself and of other priests continued ; I take it that it was part, was it nor, of that general moralising movement which led you to a successful attempt to put down the brothels ? — Yes. 11050. And matters continued to improve for a succession of years after the year 1872 ?— Yes. I would like to give one instance. A young girl who had gone into one of these brothels said that she had only been there a few hours, five or six hours, having taken refuge there. A me- dical gentleman who was called in, or under whose notice it came, said, " That girl might be saved from a life of infamy if she were taken in hand ;" and I thought it was extremely kind and humane of him, instead of making her publicly notorious and infamous, to try, while her crime was yet secret (if there was a crime), to save her. 11051. "Who was it who said that? — Dr. Curtis. 11052. What was Dr. Curtis ? — He had something to say to these Acts at the time. 11053. It was no part of his duty under the Act to save the girl, was it ; he did it out of a kind heart ? — I suspect it was charity. Chairman. 11054. Was this before the Acts were brought into operation ? — No, the Act was in operation at that time. Mr. Stansfeld. 11055. In what year was this? — I could not say in what year it was, but it was since the year 1872 ; it was about 1874 or 1875, I dare- say. 11056. You used an expression about which I should like to put a question or two ; you spoke of the marked reformation in the manners and morals of fallen women since that period ? — Yes. their manners have become exceedingly quiet : 0.75. Mr. Stansfeld — continued, they are less offensive in every way, especially when they are sober they are most inoffensive ; so much so, that the streets do not afford now any of the scenes of indecency and riotous beha- viour that they formerly presented. 11057. But in what way are their morals im- proved ? — When there has been a cessation of public indecency I should say that their morals are improved. Althougli we cannot remove sin altogether, we can at least remove the odious appearance of it, by withdrawing it from the public gaze. 11058. But would you say that the morals of a woman who continued a life of prostitution are improved ? — I say that half of her evil in- fluence is lost if she is decently behaved. Her life of sin continues, of course, to be as great as ever, and it is not for me to judge of that, because there is Another that judges of her bad disposition. Her sinfulness continues as much as ever as long as she continues to lead that life. 11059. You have spoken very favourably of the character and of the method of administra- tion of the Acts by the constabulary who are employed to administer them .' — Yes. 11060. 1 am not aware that we have had any evidence to the contrary, so far as Cork is con- cerned. You have read, I think, the evidence concerning Cork ? —I have read only Mr. King- ston's evidence, I think. HOG I. There was nothing in Mr. Kingston's evidence, was there, that was unfavouralale to the constabulary? — I think I saw somethin"- about a policeman putting his hand on the shoulders of a girl. 11062. Do you know anything about that par- ticular case ? — No, certainly not ; I do not know ^ of any case. When I say that 1 know of no case. I did see two girls walking along a lane adjoining our church one morning, and, in Patrick-street at the end of the lane, there was a covered car waiting, and those two girls stepped into the car and drove off. I knew by their appearance that they were bad, and I very soon afterwards, in the next street, met a policeman, named Looney, who has charge of them, and I told him that I saw a pair of very suspicious damsels walking along Carey's-lane, and that they stepped into a covered car and drove off, and that I should like to know who they were : and then I described their appearance, and he said : " Oh, they are invited to go to the Lock hospital, and I think they were drivin? of}' there." 11063. With regard to Mr. Kino-ston's evi- dence, in which he referred to a case where he had seen a policeman put his hand upon a girl's shoulder, he just saw it, and followed it no further, and therefore he could not tell us much about it : but at Question 2646, he is asked this: " Is that the only instance that you can point to as involving any abuse, or supposed abuse, of the Acts in Cork?" and his answer is: "The men that are carrying them out there have for a long time been acquainted with the city, and they are not liable to fall into mistakes so much as in. other places. ■■ The next question is : " Should you say that the administration of the Acts is, on the whole, judicious ? " And his answer is: 3 N ■■• They 466 MINITKS OF EViniiXCE TAKEN lUCKOKE THE 20 June 1882.] Rev. Cauoii Hegakty. \_Cu7ttinufd. Mr. Stansfeld — continued. " They trv to do their best." I suppose you confirm that evidence ?—Ves, I consider that they not only do tlicir best, but tliat tlicy give most efficient aid in bringnig about vet'ormation. 1 1064. You !y saying that out- side the city young girls parade witii their lovers and friends, soldiers perhaps, or "tiiers, and that very sensitive people immediately conclude that all those are on a bad errand, whereas they are wrong. 11103. Did T not also correctly understand you to say, that because of the reduction of brothels, peo|>le picked up prostitutes in tlie city of Cork and drove them outside the city? — Yes, they do, certainly ; and whatever evidence of vice there is outside the city is owing to that; but I say that even those cases are very few. 11104. You diftcr from Mr. Kingston as to the number of those cases, but you do not deny that they occur on the outskirts of the city? — 'J'here may be some occasional cases of it; but outside the city, or inside of it, there is nothing at all compared with what was to be louud 12 or 13 years ago. 11105. You have told us that, in your opinion, there is not so much vice as there was; did you also say that young men persisted in talking about things being as bad as ever ? — I say that some profligate young men persist in saying that, though the houses are su])pressed, and the recognised prostitutes are not to be found as they were formerly, yet that there has been clandestine prostitution, whicli more than counterbalances the good effect. 11106. Is that the opinion of that class of men ? — Of very few. I know some six or eight who say that; but I say that their opinion is not worth anything. 11107- Is that the ojiinion, so far as you know, of that class of persons ? — The general opinion is that vice has decreased. 11108. But I am speaking of the opinion of profligate young men ? — I do not know many of them, fortunately ; but the few that 1 do know try to underrate and to bring into disrepute the action of the clergy and of the police, and of those who have charge of this Act. I hope I shall be understood as referring to the oi)inion of some six or eight only, for I have not heard more than that number say so. 11109. But have you heard any opinions to the contrary effect from the same class of profli- gate young men ? — I do not know them to be profligate ; those that I have heard speak against it are men who are well known to be jirofligatc, or not to be very good men. 11110. You spoke of the marriages of .-soldiers who went to Cork ; you are not under the im- pression, are you, that soldiers are at jierfect liberty to marry whenever they like ? — I did not mean to introduce any such question. 11111. You spoke of the frequent maniagcs of the soldiers ; are those marriages with the leave of the officers ? — Yes, certainly. 11112. Then there can be no more than the ])roportion of marriages allowed in each regi- ment ? — A great many of them get married in Cork. 11113. The number of those who marry with the leave of their superior oflBcers must be limited to the uun)ber in the regiment which is allowed by the regulations to marry, must it not ? — Yes, I am aware of that. There is no prohibition against SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 469 2 June 1882.] Rev. Canon Hegartt. [ Continued. Mr. Staiisjeld — continued, against the others marrying, but their wives, are not, as they call it, put on the strength of their regiment until some years after : and then when the wife is put upon the strength of the regiment they come for the marriage certificate, and it is dated two or three years back, so that they take the consequences. When we go to marry a sol- dier all that we want to ascertain is whether he is already a married man ; we apply then to his captain. 11114. In your Magdalen Asylum, for what period do you keep ijirls? — Some of the girls consecrate themselves to God's service, and i-emain perpetually ; some remain a few months, and some five years, and some seven years. I have known some girls remain in six years, and come out. There is no compulsion. 11115. Do you, on the average, keep them for a greater number of years than in other similar institutions? — We will keep them until their deaths if we can ; but there is no compulsion at all. Chairman. 11116. But the question is, what is the average time that they remain with you? — There is one Magdalen Asvlum in Cork, and almost all that enter there remain all their lives ; a great many remain until death, but a great many remain and leave ; some of them after two years, and some of them after seven or eight, or ten years. The other, where they remain a short time, has only been in existence since 1870, so that that would accotint for the shortness. It is a different Order, the Good Shepherd Nuns ; and their rule is to provide for the girls if they are sufficiently reformed, or to enable them to emigrate or rejoin their friends. In the other Order, the Sisters of Charity, they recommend them to consecrate themselves and remain in for ever ; there are different orders of nuns. Mr. Stunsfeld. 11117- In the evidence of Mr. Reed, he was asked a question which I think referred to your- self, the llev. Father Hegarty ; at Question 6367, he is asked this : " I have here an excerpt from a paper called the •' Cork Constitution" of the 24th March, headed " The State of the City f have you read that ? — Yes. 11118. Does that refer to yourself? — It does. 11119. Is that a correct statement? — No, certainly not; the " Constitution " did not report the matter correctly. For one instance, no one would think that I was in my robes in the public street ; a clergyman does not wear his robes out in the street. The " Constitution " did not report me fairly in this respect, that I said " for four years " (I think I must have said, " for four or five years") " they had not witnessed anything like the atrocious open indecency that was now cropping up once more." There was a judge of the police court for many years in Cork, who is removed now for some time, and in his time he was very severe on this open, boisterous, vicious course pursued by some of these women; and he punished them very severely. Another magistrate came in who was succeeding in making it impos- sible for the police to jarocure a conviction unless 0.75. Mr. Stan'^fe/d — continued, they heard the words. He said, in one instance, not long ago : " Did you see the person open his mouth?" after asking, " Did you hearthe words?" I was asking for a severe penalty against this woman that I found at the church door on the previous night misconducting herself. When I came out after my business was done at the church, they were committing indecent behaviour at the church door. There were two young gentlemen in company with this prostitute. I had her arrested immediately ; they went off, but she could not fly so quickly. I went down the next day to prosecute her at the police court, and 1 asked for the kind co-operation of the Bench to suppress these open indecencies that were again manifesting themselves, and this vice which was again lifting its head ; and I said that for four years we had not seen anything in the city like what was now beginning to appear, of which this was a specimen. I would like to justify the expression again, but I was very ardent, and I said : " If the law does not aid us to put down this, I will only have to invoke the assistance of the confraternities, and go out at night in com- pany with eight or ten young men, and literally arrest these gentlemen, and we will have them up at the police court." I spoke with regard to the suppression of brothels, and to the indecency of the behaviotir in the streets. Chainnan. 11120. .You used the words "indecency and misconduct " ? — Yes, a public parade of vice. 11121. What the " Constitution " says is, that " for four years they had not witnessed anything like the prostitution that was going on in the city at night"? — I did not mean that ; I meant the public exposure and indecent behaviour. ] 1122. I suppose you meant that it would lead to that eventually ? — It would lead to that. Colonel Dighy. 11123. In what year was that? — In March 1881. Mr. Stansfeld. 11124. You have spoken of the state of public opinion in the city of Cork ; do you know the opinions of the magistrates of the county of Cork upon the subject? — I have frequently conversed with them, and I know many of them ; but they do not pronounce any opinion upon the state of the city. 11125. But I am speaking of the Acts? — I have no reason for thinking that I know the opinion of the magistrates of the county about the Acts. 11126. If I tell you that upwards of 40 magistrates of the county of Cork have petitioned for the repeal of the Acts, you have no reason, to doubt it? — No, but 1 say that they do noi know the good or evil effects of the Acts. 11127. If I tell you that something like a dozen medical men in that neighbourhood have also protested against the Acts, you would nor, be prepared to dispute that ? — I know those who are not immediately concerned, and who do not live in the city, and who have no reason to interest themselves in this matter, and who have 3 N 3 nc» 470 MINCTr> OF EVIDENCE TAKKN nEK,o. 11182. A young and inexperienced girl jn-o- bably would not know when slie was diseased 'i — No : and besides they would rather die outside than go into such hospitals. 11183. Or they would not be allowed to come to the hospital 'i — Yes, their ]iarents would be disgraced by it. Our people especially are not lost to a sense of modesty to such an extent that they would go there. 11184. Therefore, comj)ulsory examination helps morals by compelling girls to go to the hospital when they are young, and more iinj)res- sionable, and more easily got at for reclamation? — That is my conviction. 1 1 185. You spoke of morals in connection with these girls; of course there arc degrees of morals: one girl may be more moral, even though she remains in ])rostitution, because she has given up swearing and the rough habits of former times ? — Yes. 1118(j. Do you also consider that there is this advantage in the ibrtnightly examination, that the mere fact of a woman having to appear at regular intervals before a medical man for in- si)ection would have the effect of making her more self-res]icctful, and making her dress better, and making her cleaner? — I think so. 111S7. And in that way it would improve her decency, at any rate, which I suppose you would consider to be a ])art of her morals .' — Yes, in the word •"' morals '" T include all her exterior demeanour. Mr. James Curtis, f.e.c.s.i, called iu ; and Examined. Dr. Farijuharson. 1 1 188. You are a Follow of the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland ? — I am. 11189. And you hold u number of appoint- ments ? — I do ; I am senior surgeon to the County and City of Cork General Hospital and South luHrmary. I was for 17 years dispensary physician to the City of Corlv Dispensary, for 15 years I was physician to the Protestant Re- fuge ; and in 1809 I was appointed visiting surgeon to the Lock Hospital under the Con- tagious Diseases Acts, Avhicli appointment I still lidld. I am also surgeon to the police and to the Bridewell. 11190. I presume that the medic;il appoint- ments that you have held and now hold, have given you an opportunity of knowing the moral and social condition of the city of Cork? — They have. 11191. You have lived in Cork all your life, liave you not? — I have lived there all my life ; I liave been practising there for 23 years. " 11192. With regard to the moral aspect of the ])lace, can you draw any comjiarison between the state of things that existed iu Cork in 18C9, when the Contagious Diseases Acts came into ojtera- tion, and the state of things at the jircsent time? — Yes ; I believe there was no place so immoral as the city of Cork prior to 1869, so far as 1 can remember; it was so immoral that it was no ■unusual thing to see, at the end of the lanes, a Dr. Farrjukarsun — continued, lot of half-dressed prostitutes drunk and going through the sti'eets, even iu the daytime ; but after dusk no proper man, no one even could go there without being insulted ; even in company with a man, a friend, or a brother, or a father, no female could go without being insulted ; gradually that has jiast away, aud, to prove it. 1 niaj- say that within the last fortnight, I went out of my own house at 10 o'clock at night, and 1 walked through all the thoroughfares and suburbs of the city, and I saw but three pros- titutes, and they were women of the lowest stamj) who live iu no houses at all, but who might go and b've in the fields, aud come into the town at night. 11193. You stated, I believe, that that great improvement was subsequent to the introduction of the Contagious Diseases Acts, that is to say, since tlie year 1869 ? — Since 1869 that has gra- dually taken place. 11194. Could you explain how you connect that improvement with the operation of these Acts ? — I believe that when the Acts came into force there were some 500 or 600 registered prostitutes, and I suppose 150, or more, of those women never came out of the dens that they were in, except into the immediate neighbour- hood, or to some neighbouring public-houses. When the Acts came into force, they were neces- sarilj- compelled to go to hospitals, aud coming anion cc SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 473 20 June 1882] Mr. Curtis, f.e.c.s.i. [ Continued. Dr. Farquharson — continued, among civilised people, and under the influence of the clergymen, they began to refurm ; and every day I noticed that when they came to the exammation-room they were a little better be- haved; they were getting cleaner, and they were becoming more respectful; in fact, I never saw disrespect, because they all knew their shame, but there was a gradual improvement and a gradual weeding out, and particularly a gradual decrease in the number of young girls who have merely touched upon prostitution, may be for a week or 10 days. A girl might come to a brothel and be found by the police, and immediately she would be reclaimable ; they were the most re- claimable. There are now only about 116 women on the town ; some are in prison, some in the workhouse, and some in the hospital ; but three- fourths of them will never be reclaimed ; they will be 20 years on the town ; but those that were reclaimable were all gradually reclaimed. 11195. I gather from what you have said that you attribute, in the case of young women upon the verge of an immoral life, a good deal to the deterrent effect of the Acts ? — I do. 11196. You think that the Acts, and the ma- chinery of the Acts, have the effect of prevent- ing those women from crossing the border, if I may use such an expression, between levity and immorality ? — It has the very greatest effect. 11197. I suppose I need scarcely ask you, as a medical man, whether it is not absurd to tallPof putting a woman in a proper moral condition as long as she is suffering from this loathsome dis- ease ? — I do not think it is any use at all. 11198. The first step is to cure her? — The first step is to cure her, and during the process of cure you get opportunities of seeing what sort of disposition she has. 11199. You utilise the opportunities given you while she is being cured for the purpose of re- claiming her ? — Y''es. 11200. Was it not the fact that, formerly, both syphilis and gonorrha3a of a bad type prevailed very extensively in Cork ? — Very extensively. 11201. Is that the case now? — There is very little now. 11202. Connecting that with your former answer I take it that you consider that that gradual weeding out of disease has prepared the way for the moral reclamation of these women ? — Yes. 11203. How many brothels were therein Cork in the year 1869? — There were 48. 11204. How many are there at present? — None ; not one known to the police. There is not a single brothel in Cork. 11205. Prior to the year 1869 what was the amount of hospital accommodation for venereal disease in Cork ? — 'I'here was a small ward with about four or five beds in the Northern Infirmary, which was occupied by the better class of pros- titutes ; but there was no other except the work- house hospital. 11206. Do the general hospitals in Cork admit persons suffering from venereal disease ? — No. 11207. So that, in fact, that was the only accommodation for venereal patients before the year 1869 ?— It was. 11208. Previously to 1869 were there any 0.75. Dr. Farquharson — continued, refuges for fallen women? — There were two refuges, one Roman Catholic and the other Protestant. The Roman Catholic Refuge was limited in extent, and the Protestant one had about 20 beds. Chairman. 11209. What was the size of the Roman Catholic Refuge; was it more limited than that? — I cannot exactly state that. There were more beds than that, I think. I have been physician to that Protestant Refuge for the last 18 years; if any case arises I am consulted. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 11210. I presume you know that Protestant Refuge thoroughly ? — Thoroughly. 11211. I daresay you have read or been re- ferred to the evidence given by Mr. Kingston. In answer to Question 2667 he says, in effect, that the women entering the refuge since the Acts came into operation were more hardened. What is your opinion upon that point ? — -That is not the case. Referring to Mr. Kingston's evi- dence with regard to that refuge, I have here a letter from the chaplain, Mr. Alcock, who says : " Having heard that a Mr. Kingston has given evidence to the effect that the women in this institution are less manageable than they were, and further that he himself has been of benefit to the place, I liave to state, (1) that the women are now remarkably manageable, several of them having lately got situations, where they are doing very well; (2) that Mr. Kingston is in no posi- tion to give any precise information respecting this refuge. I have been chaplain four years and five months, and have never had any com- munication with him of any kind, nor do I know his appearance." I remember the time when, if a ship or a regiment came into Queenstown, and a letter was thrown over the wall of that refuge, they would all be out of it in 24 hours. On Satur- day the matron told me that a former matron informed her, that so badly did the women con- duct themselves that she had to barricade herself into her room. That was prior to 1869. 1 1212. Then this statementmade by Mr. Kings- ton, that the character of the girls who come to the Protestant Refuge was much more hardened after the Acts than before is not borne out by your experience ? — Not at all ; not by the chap- lain. 11213. May I take it that you have noticed that, by degrees since 1869, the women have become more orderly? — l^es, they remain in until they get situations. I was there last Fri- day with the chaplain and matron, and went through the whole institution, and I was very pleased with it. 11214. Do you think that it would be possible to do away with the periodical examinations of the women ? — It would be impossible. 11215. Do you think that they are absolutely necessary in order to secure the sanitary value of the Acts, if I may use such an expression ? — I do. 11216. With regard to these examinations, I daresay you have read some of the evidence 3 O which 474 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 20 June 1882.] Mr. Curtis. p.r.c.s.i. [^Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, which hiis been given in O])position to the Acts on the subject; will you state how those examina- tions arc conducted ; are they conducted in the same way as the examinations of ladies w!io are suffering from uterine diseases are conducted? — "When a young girl or woman comes to the hospital for the first rime, I iiujuire and talk to her in tlie presence of the nurse, and 1 find where she conies from, who are her parents, and how long she has misconducted herself; and I tell her, '• I do not want to examine you ; if you will promise me tliat yon will leave the life you arc leading, and behave yourself, 1 most wil- lingly forego any examination ;'' there was not a '^irl that ever went for the first time td that hospital since I have been connected with it that I did not say that to; and I have spoken to them in the kindest manner, and in many instances they have been restored to their friends without going under the examination. Then when she says, " I will behave mj self," I find out what religion they belong to, and they arc sent to the clei'gyman and got to behave themselves. Often and often a girl will burst out crying, and from that day she will never come up to be examined. No surgeon or physician in London conducts an examination with more care, and tenderness, and attention than the examining surgeon does. I could not be more careful to my private patients than I am to these women. 1 1217- You conduct the examinations in the same w-ay, I suppose, as the examinaticms of virtuous women in a case of uterine complaints ? — In exactly the same way. 11218. And you are aware that many ladies are obliged to submit to such an examination? — Every day in the County Hospital I have one or two married women, or unmarried women, with uterine diseases, who have to be examined. 11219. And you have such cases in private practice too, I suppose ? — Such cases occur in my private practice every day of my life. 11220. Mr. Kingston says, in answer to Ques- tion 2531 : " If I might quote an expression that I got from the lips of a few prostitutes within the past month, une of them said to me, that they had a great fight to get her on the table, and now that they had succeeded in that she did not care what end became of her ;" is that true ? — No, that is distinctly unti ue ; directly or indirectly no woman ever had any second words, nor did ever have a second word, nor did any woman ever object. 11221. Did you ever have a fight to get a woman on the table 1 — Never ; such a thing is wholly untrue ; whoever stated it it is not the fact. 11222. You deny the fact?— I do. 11223. Then he goes on to say: " Another said, not three weeks ago " (this being on the 31st of March 1882), " that she was taken over to the hospital at nine o'clock at night, and made to go over there ; and that she had to sign her name, and then afterwards undergo an examination ;" is that true ? — I declare that there is not one word of truth in that ; it is five years since I examined a woman by night, and at that time I e.xamined a few prho came from out-towns, such as Fermoy, because I did not like to drive the poor creatures out into the streets at night, as Mr. Osborne iV/or^a« — continued, they said they were diseased, and wanteil to get iuto the hospital, and I went there at 10 o'clock on two or three occasions, but never since. 11224. You did that for the convenience of the women ? — Y'es, the man at the gate came and said that they were crying there, and he would not like to diive those women on to the town. 11225. I understand yon to say that if those prostitutes made that statement to Mr. Kingston, it is absolutely false? — It is all false. 1122G. I see that at Question 2557, speaking of clandestine prostitution, Mr. Kingston is asked this : " You gather from reports tiiat claiult stine prostitution has largely increased?" and his answer is : " Y'^es." Then he is asked : " 1 sup- pose that in the course of time tiie clandestine prostitutes would learn the best way of evading the Acts ; have you found that that has been studied to some effect in Cork ? " and his answer is: "I have reason to think so. Tlicy (that is to say, the clandestine prostitutes) are engaged during the day in shops and such places, and an idea has got amongst them lately that if they are not seen in the company of registered women the police cannot touch them." Have you any remarks lo make upon that statement? — With regard to that class of girls that ]Mr. Kingston speaks of, I think it is a most foul asjicr^ion upon the young girls in the shops in the city of C'ork. They come out at seven o'clock at night, and they walk down Patrii^k-street, which is tl:e large thoroughfare, but they are all respectable jieople, and at 10 o'clock the streets are all cleared. If, as I did the other night, I go out from 10 o'clock to 12, not one of those girls is there; nor is it true that they retire to the suburbs, because I know, for a fact, that those are all well-conducted girls who walk about with their brotliers and sweethearts, and old married men and women ; and they parade the streets in the evening, be- cause they have no other time in the day to v.'alk there. 11227. Do you believe that there is this great increase of clandestine prostitution, meaning of course by clandestine prostitution the prostitution of women who ought to be registered, but wlio, in some way or other, manage to evade registra- tion? — I do not believe it, and I know it is not so. 11228. I think you were telling me what passed when a girl came up for examination for the first time? — When a girl comes into the room with the nurse for the first time, I speak to her kindly and gently, and talk to her about her parents, m fact I try to rouse every good emotion; I tell her that I do not want her to be examined, that I would rather that she went to her friends, and that if she was afraid of that 1 would send her to some home ; at the same time telling her that if she continued her evil life she must submit to fortnightly examination. 11229. Have those appeals in many cases been successful? — .Many of them. Many of the girls never went on the table at all to be examined. I let them go. I have said, " You may go, but mind, you will be watched, and if you misconduct yourself again you will be brought up." The nurse also speaks to that. 11230. As ' SELECT COMMITTEE ON CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 47/) 20 June 1882.] Mr. CUETIS, F.R.C.S.l. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 11230. As a matter of fact have they come up again ? — Never. 11231. I take it from you that you are of opinion that bringing these girls up for examina- tion, and bringing them under the influences which you have described, has the efiect of deter- ring many of them from entering on a hfe of vice ? — Yes, they would never come ; all the coaxing in the world would never bring them. 11232. Are you able, from your knowledge of the City of Cork before 1869, to say whether there is now more or less clandestine prostitution than there was ? — There was an immense amount of clandestine prostitution at that time, just the same as there is in any town where the Acts are not in force. Girls misconducting themselves, whom it would be hard to catch before the Acts come into force, are now frightened of being seen in the company of prostitutes, so that the Acts have a deterrent eflTect in that way. 11233. Of course, in one sense there was no deterrent in operation before 1869 which could prevent people from carrying on clandestine prostitution ; nobody interfered with them, I suppose ; -No 11234. At Question 2.590, speaking about prosecutions of public-house or beerhouse keepers for allowing women to assemble in the houses for the purpose of prostitution, Mr. Kingston is asked : " And have some licenses been forfeited in consequence ? '' And his answer is : " Several of them have." Could you tell us how many licenses have been forfeited since the Acts came into operation ? — Two only in the last 14 years. Chairman. 11235. Altogether, or in connection with har- bouring prostitutes? — For prostitutes frequenting the bar ; and in one case a publican let a prosti- tute and a man sleep all night in the house, and the police hunted that down, and got his license taken away. 11236. When you are speaking of the for- feiture of licenses, I presume that you are re- ferring to forfeiture in regard to misconduct connected with the subject which we are investi- gating ? — Yes. 11^437. Have only two licenses been forfeited altogether ? — There have been only two magis- trates' licenses for the sale of drink forfeited. 11238. What were they forfeited for.?— One was for having prostitutes loitering too much at the bar, and the other was a case in which a policeman traced a man and a prostitute going to a house. 11239. They were both cases of misconduct connected with the subject of this inquiry? — Yes. 11240. Were there no forfeitures of licenses for keejDingopen late after hours during all that time ? — Yes ; that is a diiferent thing. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 11241. When you speak of these forfeitures you, of com-se, confine yourself to misconduct connected in some way with this subject ? — Yes, connected with this Act. 11242. At Question 2592, Mr. Kingston is asked : " Can you tell us from your own ex- 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, perience your opinion of the effect of the existence and operation of the Acts in Cork, upon the mind and the manners of the youth of the male sex ? " In answer to which he says : '' Thev think that they can practise wickedness now with impunity. I might say that I know in four cases of mere young lads who were very steady nice boys some time ago, and now they are under treatment for evil disease." Do you think that it is probable that boys are now exposed to more temptation than they were before the Acts came into opera- tion ?— Not at all ; on the contrary, from 12 to 14 and 15 or 20 years ago every evenino-, and day and night too, a young fellow if he went out in the streets jostled up against a girl that he could go with. Now it is a different thing; the girls are not there ; and if a young fellow is in- clined to go with a girl I believe that he never reckons or thinks of, or takes the consequences into consideration. They may be tipsy, and they are more or less taken by the looks of the o-irl, and they never contemplate what results may follow. I know it from students and I know it as a man of the world. 11243. As a matter of fact, do you think that before a man proceeds to indulge in sexual vice he sits down and calculates the cost or the dan- ger ?— No, indeed he does not ; that is the last thing he thinks of. 11244. Have you any remark to make upon Mr. Kingston's answer to Question 2596 ? — There are three policemen entrusted with the carrying out of the Acts in Cork ; all married men, one a constable, and two sub-constahjes. Those men are chosen by the county inspector for being advanced in age, men of sobriety, men of good conduct, and men of long standing. Mr. Kingston says that one of those men told him that he believed and he knew that there was an increase of clandestine prostitution in Cork ; and Mr. Kingston also states that on one evenino- on going down the Mall he came up just as the policeman had taken his hand from off the arm of a girl whom he was wanting to take off by force to the Lock Hospital. I have here a declaration signed and sworn before the resident magistrate by those three men who are very indignant about it, from Patrick Doyle, constable, John Dooly, sub-constable, and Timothy Louney, sub-con- stable, who deny it, and say that it is wholly untrue. ( The same was handed in.) 11245. Did you ever hear of a young woman being dragged to the hospital at that time ? — I do not believe it ever occurred. I do not believe that either directly or indirectly these men ever put their hands upon a single female. 11246. If such a row as that had occurred is it not likely that you would have heard of it? — Of course 1 would. There is a distinct denial on oath. Mr. Kingston states that almost every day women are brought uj) by the police for no't complying with the Contngious Diseases xicts. 1 have here a return, signed by the governor of the City Prison, of women committed to the Cork Female Prison under the Contaoious Diseases Acts, from June 1869 to May 1882,for neglecting to attend for periodical examination, and there are 18 in 13 years, and one of those was sent back three times. ( The same was handed in.) 3 2 11247. Take 4TG MINCTF.S OF EVII>E\CE TAKEN BKFOHE THE 20 June 1882.1 Mr. Curtis, f.r.c.s.!. [ Continued. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 11247. Take the case of a woman wlio has signed the voluntary submission as it is termed, and who is admitted into the Lock Hospital ; as soon as she leaves the hospital she is a free woman, is she not ? — As soon as she leaves the hospital she is a free woman. 11248. She is not put ui)on the register again unless she reverts to a life of prostitution? — Decidedly not ; she is perfectly free ; as free as any woman in the land. 11249. Are you aware that it has been stated by several witnesses that the sreat blot upon the system is that it makes it so ditticult for a woman to escape from a life of prostitution, and shuts the door against her return to a life of virtue ? — There is nothing more easy. A girl has only to say, " I wish to leave the life that I am leading. I am going to my friends," or, " I am going to a refuge ;" and I say " I am very delighted to hear that you are going to be good ; don't apjiear afain, and you may go; but if you misconduct yourself again remember it will be a very serious thing for you." Chairman. 11250. Under those circumstances will her name be taken off the register ? — It will. 11251. Will it be taken off if she tells the police, " I will be a good girl for the future"? — Yes, they take it off at once. ilr. Osborne Moryan. 1 1252. The Act provides, does it not, that the application shall be in writing ? — Sometimes that is carried out ; but there is no necessity for it in all cases, and some of them do not write. I do not think I ever saw a case, at least, I do not remember a case where I have refused to take a firl's name off on her promising to amend. 11253. In fact, you do not stand upon the strict letter of the Act of Parliament, and require the application to be made in writing? — I do not think that the spirit of the law is such. During the mayoralty of a gentleman, whose name I have here, a motion was brought forward in the Town Council to petition Parliament for the repeal of ihe Contagious Diseases Acts. The gentleman to whom I refer is Mr. B. T. Shee- han, J.r., the late Mayor of Cork, and who is also a Poor Law Guardian. "With the permission of the Committee I will read what he says : " I have had ample opportunities for the past twenty- five years of knowing the moral condition of the City of Cork. At one time prostitution and immorality of the worst kind prevailed to a great extent, and was to be witnessed in the streets of Cork both evenings and nights. Such, I am glad to say, is not the state of the city now. Thanks to the great zeal of the Catholic clergy and police, and the introduction of the Contagious Diseases Act, no such scenes of immorality are to be witnessed now as formerly. The streets can be walked with impunity, and no insult offered to respectable females, i believe it was during my mayoralty that a motion was brought forward in the Town Council to petition Parliament for the repeal of the Contagious Diseases Act, but it was rejected by an overwhelming majority, and Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued, if a similar motion was l)rought forward again it would meet with a similar fate. If I can add any more, command me. If further proof were necessary of the good results of passing tliis Act, I need onlv refer you to the charitalile institu- tions where tliose poor creatures being tired of the miserable lives they lead retired off the streets. Few comparatively appear at the police office now to what used to do ; after their conversion they go into situations and conduct themselves properly." 11254. "What is the date of that meeting at which the motion was rejected ? — A few years ago. I have also here a letter from the Kcv. George Sheeiian, the Vicar General of the Diocese of Cork, who says : " I readily bear testimony to the signal im|)rovement which has taken place in Cork of late years as regards the withdrawal from the streets at night of im))roper females. I have been a missionary priest in this city for the greater jiart of my hfe, which has been a long one, and I have the most painful recollections of the unblushir.g way in which immorality used formerly to parade itself in the streets at ni'jht. All that is now changed ; and if vice be not banished altogether, at least propriety has so far triumiihed, that indecency has been made to hide itself, and the abandoned classes have been forced to adopt the outward semblance of pro])riety. Tiiis happy change may not be attributable to any one cause, but is pro- bably the result of the combined action of many causes. I have no doubt that the Contagious Diseases Act has had a most salutary effect : but I would fain hope that religious influences have been multiplied, and thereby a greater horror of depravity has been inspired, and fostered by pastoral vigilance." 11255. Do you know of any cases in which girls have been rescued from a life of prostitu- tion by the mere fact of their being obliged to come out of their hiding ]ilaces in order to submit to the examination ? — I do. At the commence- ment of the Acts there were some of them who would have lived and died in the dens that they were in ; but from the fact of their being obliged to come to the hospital they were brought under civilising influences, and made to give up the life which they were leading. 11256. Do you know the "Bush"? — The '*' Bush " is a place in Queenstown where there are trees and furze, a wild space, overhanging the shore ; and some years ago there were about 20 to 25 or 30 women who lived there all the year round under the furze, just like the ''wrens of the Curragh." 11257. Like animals ? — Like animals. Xow a child of three years of age might walk over that place ; there is not a solitary sign of a prostitute there, good, bad, or indifferent. Chairman. 11258. Is Queenstown in yourdistrict ?— Yes. That place is now perfectly free from those women. I saw a couple of dozen little children and nurses playing over it as they play in the Park here, and not a vestige of a prostitute there. It was an abominable jilace formerly. 11259. You SELECT COMMITTEE OX CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS. 477 20 June 1882.] Mr. Curtis, f.e.c.s.i. \_ContiHued. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 11259. You think that the fact of those women being, so to speak, dragged out of those horrible places in which they lived in that horrible way and brought face to face with civilising influences through Ihe operation of the Acts, has had a good deal to do with the improvement of the town and with the improvement of those women ? — Yes, a great deal. I know women who were brought for the first time from those places to the Lock Hospital, and who when they were cured went straight from there to the Magdalen Asylum. 11260. Does it not seem to you rather absurd to talk of reclaiming women who are left in that condition? — No clergyman or proper person could get near their dens of infamy. 11261. The state in which they lived was so degraded that the idea of bringing any influences to bear upon them until they had been ferreted out was absui'd? — It was impossible. 11262. I presume that though you have lived in Cork for the greater part of your life, you have visited other towns in Ireland which are not under the operation of the Acts ? — Yes. 11263. Have you ever been in Limerick? — I have been in Limerick. 11264. Have you been in Limerick lately ? — I was there at about a year and a half ago. 11265. I should like to have your opinion, speaking from your own observation, of the com- parative condition of Cork, which is a subjected district, and of Limerick, which is an unsubjected district, as regards public morality and public decency? — Limerick is now on a lesser, what Cork was, scale. I was in some brothels in Limerick, and the prostitutes were more like wild beasts. 'I'hey were naked, and the cursing and swearing there was most abominable. 11266. \Yus that a year and a half ago.? — Yes. I went there on purpose to ascertain whether women would come voluntarily from Limerick to Cork to be treated. 11267. What was the result? — Not one would come. Chairman. 11268. How many such places did you go into in Limerick ? — I went into one or two lanes, and there were, I think, four or five brothels in them. 11269. Were you brought into them by the police ? — Yes. 11270. Were those places frequented by sol- diers? — Yes, there were three soldiers in one place half naked, with three girls more than half naked. 11271. You Saw no civilians? — No. Mr. Osborne Morgan. 11272. Having regard to the fact that until you cure the disease you cannot reclaim the patient, should you say that the prevalence of venereal disease in Limerick as compared with the prevalence of venereal disease in Cork, con- stitutes a very serious obstacle to the moral reclamation of the women ? — Of course it does ; and if you ask me how I would go about im- proving the condition of Limerick now, I would say introduce compulsory examination, and you will have Limerick just as Cork is now. 0.75. Mr. Osborne Morgan — continued. 11273. I think you said that in the case ot men, and particularly of young men, especially if they are under the influence of liquor, no thought of whether they incur any danger enters into their minds before they have connection with a woman? — I think they are attracted by the looks of the girl if they are under the influence of liquor. I do not believe that any sensible man would come to any other conclusion. I have here another letter from a magistrate of the city, Mr. Hegarty, who says, " I have a thorough knowledge of this city for many years past ; it was notorious for prostitution and immorality of the worse kind ; no virtuous woman was safe at night in the streets. Such is not the case now. No scenes of immorality are to be witnessed, and I believe that is owing to the introduction of the Contagious Diseases Acts, together with the zeal and exertions of the Catholic clergy." I may state that last Friday I was in conversation with Monsignor Neville, the Roman Catholic Dean of Cork, and Dr. Delaney, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Cork, and they told me to say as much as I possibly could for them as to their ideas of the great benefits and the good results of the Acts in Cork. I was told particularly to men- tion that. 11274. I presume that the preponderance of opinion on the part of medical men is in favour of the Acts ? — Yes, I never heard a medical man in Cork say a word against them. 11275. Although I understand you to say that the eff'ect of the Acts is considerably to diminish disease ? — It is so much money out of our pockets. Chairman. 11276. You said that there were no brothels in Cork ; are there receiving houses there where men can bring in women ? — Not that I know. 11277. It would follow from that that all the prostitution in Cork must take place in the open air? — What there is of it; there is a class of women, as I have already stated, about 80 or 100 women, who never go into a house ; they are old, some of them 50 or 60 years of age, the last of the race of prostitutes when the Act com- menced ; nothing will save them. 11278. Then they must carry on their trade to a very large extent, in the open air ? — They are always moving about from Ferraoy to Kinsale, and the garrison towns, and here and there, and sleeping under the forts, and behind the barracks. Of the real registered better class of women, I think there are not more than 10 or la; and then there is a stratum a little lower than those ; and then the great bulk of the 116 are the soldiers' women going about from place to place. 11279. But surely this better class of women generally must have lodgings or houses in which they live ? — If they have lodgings, they keep the thing very quiet, because 1 do not know of it, and the police do not find thein out; they move about from place to place. 11280. But there are no regular brothels? — No. 11281. Mr. Hegarty, the justice of the peace, 3 3 whose 47R MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BKFORE THE 20 June 1882.] Mr. Curtis, f.b.cs.i. [ Continued. Chairman — continued, whose opinion you have read with ret'erencc to the working of the Acts, was mayor of the city, was he not? — 1 think he was; but, at any rate, he was the chief founder of the large Magdalen Asvlum at Cork. 11282. Is the rule carried out with you that the doctor must be present when a