88 PAPX PLACr -C 30SW0RTH SX NEVv v'ORa -. '. -.. BOSTON &A6U Adless — Cup euro £ U ?? m ® from". 1 ITSS70N TRANSCRIPT JULY fi. 1917 -| able,' will make this matter, a subject for | Very pressing attention.^ $681000 IN PENSIONS Carnegie Foundation Reports on Year’s . Activ fWi » .»^ ie.-M.ew. Plan of-, Insurance j * and Annuities New York, July 6—The eleventh annual report of the president and the treasurer of the Carnegie Foundation for the Ad¬ vancement, of Teaching, for the year ei T Sept. SO, 1916, shows a total endowmu.. of $14,250,000, an accumulated surplus of $1.- 327,000, and an annual expenditure of $779,- 000: Of this, $39,000 was spent in admin-. ' istration, $47,000 in educational inquiry, and $687,000 in retiring allowances and .pen- | sions. During the year thirty retiring al¬ lowances and sixteen widows’ pensions were granted, the average grant being ! $1703. The total number of allowances now j- in force is 331, the total number of widows’ i pensions, 127, the general average being! $1553. The . total- number of allowances I granted since the beginning of the foun- 1 dation is 685, the total expenditure 1 for this I purpose having been $4,910,000. 1 The- report includes official replied from I fifty-two of the institutions associated with.l the foundation concerning the new con¬ tributory plan of insurance and annuities,, proposed - by the foundation, and presents I the fundamental principles of ; a pension I system which have been appro ved by the I -trustees of the foundation and a joint I TCOtfimissioh representing the A'mericdh As- 1 sociation of University Professors, the As- 1 sociation , of : American Universities, the I National Association of State Universities, I and the Association- of American Colleges. I - Details- are given -concerning the new teachers insurance'and annuity association I -which is to be established, together with! an estimate of Its prospective service to f the teaching profession. _ L i The report, as usual, devotes considerable! space to recent developments in the field I of pensions for teachers, clergymen and m l dustrial workers; arid records the cobpera-l tion of the foundation with the committee L oh pensions of the National Education I Association. The work of the Massachu- I setts Teachers’ Retirement Board, the newL svstem for the teachers of Erie, Pa., and! the plan proposed for the State of Iowa I are commended; the systems proposed for the teachers of Chattanooga, Tf ness ®e and Wheeling W. Va.. are considered faulty, Xe Sw Plat. for the city of New York ,s commendea In general hut 1 faulty in particular in basing the amount of its pensions upon future salaries which nobbdy can predict, and in undertaking | the great burden of service pensions irre- snective of-age or disability. The report concludes with a study of a hundred varieties of cdllege enttance cer- tiflcates, and presents for consideration a uniform blank which, it is believed, will meet, the general need.. (Recent Yacht Transfers ■ „ f nder b ° at Sally XI has b een sold lo^rr^ r0e ’ Jr ” to Arthur McGarry ■ of the S° uth Boston Yacht Club, who will lnpli er the ClUb races - Thomas Scan- ■ nell of the same club has purchased the Inf°w g u 7 EIbabeth F ' fr ® L- H. Brown ■of Wollaston and will race her. She has ■been renamed Ghost. Robin Hood, a 21- ■footer that has not been raced to any ex- ■tent JS another boat that will be entered ■by the new owner, George Holt, ,for the ■club championship races. Naval Architects in Service _ The demand by the Government for ■naval arcihtects, at present, is such that ■several of the best known in thlstnl in ■the country are now employed with various ■commissions. Charles D. Mower of Lvnn the firm of Bowes and Mower ■of Philadelphia, is one of the latest to take ■up this work with J. Murray Watts ot ■Philadelphia, formerly of this city. Wil- Hham J. Reed of this city is engaged in in- ia“oTb.atr tr “ Cti0n ° f th « Oo™™ment ■r McBlwen of Stapleton, Staten Jlsland, has had launched a 28-foot auxiliarv ■catboat, designed 'by Ralph Crosby and ■ ba ^ at tbe y ar d of Daniel Crosby & Son ■at Osterville. The same yard is complete- ■wprk.on a 3o-foot auxiliary yawl for George T. Simpson of Columbus, N. J, YANKEES GET OUTFIELDER VICK iMempMs Player to Report to New York ■ at Close of Southern Season ■ Memphis, Tenn July 6-Sam v ic . k) 0 ut- |fielder for the. Memphis Southern Asso elation club, has been sold to the New York Americans, to report to New York after the Southern season. The price was [$4200 in cash and two pitchers S PAY AND TENURE. JUSJREAU CLIPPING FROM NEW YORK POST SECURITY 0F WORK WILL ALWAYS HOLD TEAMS ERA OF LARGE SALARIES IN BUSI¬ NESS WILL PASS. Carnegie Foundation Prophesies Smaller Rewards for Leaders in Industrial Life of Another Genera' tion. Miilion-dollar salaries, for corporation, heads are but a passing phase, and teach¬ ers’ salaries, while continuing to be mod¬ erate, will attract by reason of the se¬ curity which the work offers. This is the double prophecy in the eleventh an¬ nual report of the for the Advancement of Teach 1 nguro p- ies of which are now being circulated. It. is also brought out in the report that teachers as a class make altogether too niggardly a provision for their families in insurance against their death, and various causes are stated for their fail¬ ure to do better. In taking up the teacher’s obligation to his family,, the report points out that “it is a difficult and complicated question to answer.” It is assumed, however, that insurance should average about three times the annual salary of the teacher. “The information furnished by the teachers in the associated institutions, in reply to our inquiry respecting msu: ance,” says the report, “shows that teach' ers need some awakening as to their own’ obligations in the matter of insurance;. About one-fifth of all those who answer¬ ed carried no life insurance, and those who did carry insurance provided, on the average, a protection amounting to only a little more than a single year’h salary, a situation not differing greatly from that among railroad employees. This situation is the result of a number of causes. Lack of the sen| of obligation, lack of know! "edge conf^Biing insurance, its high cost, the general weakening of the habit of thrift, among all classes of Americans, the cost of living, are some of these causes. If American college teachers are to carry a protection for themselves and their- families'approaching what is need¬ ed, some clear realization of the oppor¬ tunities afforded, as well as of their own obligations, must be generally realized. INSURANCE OF TEACHERS. nipeg. The call 'to thS man must come not from a college but! from the life, life which offers no big? prizes in money, but has security, honor, and freedom. How far will Security weigh in the minds of able men against the money prizes? That As hard to say. Time will be needed before it will count appreciably, but security is the only 7 balance ; of a material sort which the teaching profes¬ sion can set off against the money prizes.' Men are paid ’ as much as a million dol¬ lars a year in a few cases in America.- Salaries of $100,000 a year are not un¬ common. A . great organization thinks nothing of paying $25,000 to its vice- presidents or assistant managers. Is it possible to fix the eyes of able men upon the teacher’s opportunity amid the daz¬ zle of such prizes? Two things may be said. The present scale of industrial salaries represent a passing phase of corporation develop¬ ment, A million dollars a year paid to a man is not a salary. No legitimate busi¬ ness could support overhead charges of such a scale. t The next twenty years will see such ‘ charges reduced to some, scale proportioned to the value of the service rendered. But the time will never come when teaching will hold out such prizes. In a material competition it offers a moderate salary with security, and to do this it must be organized. We in North America still live in the conditions created by the development of a new continent. In the ne^pt generation business organization will undergo a con¬ tinual transformation in which the ten¬ dency will be to substitute security for i part at least of the prize that has hither¬ to taken the form of an exaggerated sal¬ ary. As time goes on security will weigh more and more with the able men in de¬ ciding a vocation, or rather one may saj that the money prize will not be sc powerful in drawing able men away frorr a vocation into which their intellectua and social powers would naturally carr: them. “In the matter of insurance only an arbitrary assumption can be made. Teachers carry on the average an insur¬ ance. equivalent to a little more than one year’s salary. In the Presbyterian Min¬ ister’s Fund, which offers insurance at ex¬ tremely low rates, the average policy is $1,600. Teachers who have been carry¬ ing on the average insurance equivalent to one and a half the annual salary will not,. even on these favorable terms, carry i five or six times the amount formerly provided. What one may hope for is a better realization of. the obligation to protect one’s family, a more systematic effort to provide that protection, and a intelligent use of insurance as an to that end.” Takilfc up the question of the future of the touching profession, the report says, in part: Unless one has had the time and the patience to read the literature Of old-age pensions and of social insurance, he can scarcely appreciate, at its-f currency to the country are not re¬ garded as large. How the new wheat prop now being harvested is. going to he financed, is a proposition that puzzles all. As prices are high, there will be about double the amount needed ; to move the same quantity handled last year. The Impression here is that it . is to be finaned by or through the Federal Re¬ serve banks, but exactly how has not been announced. As the wheat is likely to be kept moving rapidly, the money can be turned ovepr rapidly many times ■ t T 1 P : >ejRiMr other crops is expected to beJRTin about the usual methods, but much money will be necessary in August and later months. SIX MOUTHS’ FAILURES. Insolvencies for the First Six Months Amonnt to 7,488, against 9,495 Fast Year. With 7,488 failures for $94,721,356, ex¬ clusive of banking suspensions and a large life insurance, receivership in Pennsylvania, the country’s commercial, mortality during the first half of 19T7 made the best numercial exhibit since 1911, while the liabilities, were the small¬ est for any similar period in nearly a de¬ cade. The present figures compare with the 9,495 defaults, involving $111,241,421, reported to Dun’s Review last year, and with 12,740 for $188,587,535 in 1915—the highest point on record. In the first six months of 1914 there were 8,543 insol¬ vencies, with aggregate debts of about $185,000,000. It thus appears that, de¬ spite the very material increase in new enterprises and other factors calculated to enhance the possibilities of financial embarrassment, failures have been rela¬ tively moderate, and a study of the lat¬ est statement discloses no evidence that tho economic readjustments occasioned by this nation’s participation in the war have caused serious disturbances in busi¬ ness. The improvement which featured the returns during the first three months of this year was well maintained in the second quarter, and defaults in June were less numerous than in the same month of 1916 and 1915, with the small¬ est liabilities for the period, excepting those of last year, since 1912. The following table gives the number of failures since 1900 together with their assets and liabilities. . 8,317 . 7,061. 1910 . 6,388 1909 6,831 1908 8,709 1907 5,607 1906 5,612 1905 . 6,210 1904 .; 6,214 1903 5,628 1902 . 6,165 1901 5,759 1900 . 5,332 The following of commercial failures throughout the United States, comprising the eight sections into which the. coun¬ try is divided, show the following num¬ ber .of failures together with their lia¬ bilities in' each section: Number. Liabilities. 1917. 1916. Liabilities. $94,721,356 111,241,421 188,587,535 185,099,730 132,909,061 108,012,223 ’ 792 103,698,334 76,328,611 112,239,306 Assets. 7,488 $56,989,360 9,495 59.366.420 12,740 116,529,403 8,543 132,393,632 8,163 91.129,616 - "9.643,271 63,146,097 S 78,762,588 42,153,278 32,802,020 32,262,157 46,764,276 35,957,751 31.048.808 27,635.046 43.436.559 88,541,373 124,374,833 69,568,062 62,664,074 55,904,585 79,490,9.09 66,797,260 60,374,856 55,804.690 74,747,452 1915. 1917. _ 1,058 $12,891,493 2,372 3,196 33,95(1,039 1.116 1.791 8,239,721 1,487 2,240 8,546,724 1,557 2,028 15,335,543 866 988 5,390,938 222 254 1,157,460 971 1,184 9,210,438 (JiTew England. . . Middle . 1,808 So. Atlantic .... 853 Central South .. 1,017 Central Bast •• 1.828 Central West .. 650 West . 197 Pacific __.... 854 U. S. 7,488 9,495 12,740 $94,721, Following will be found Bradstreet’s and liabilities back to 1879: Per ct. of I No. . Estimated 1 Total assets to I failures, assets. liabilities. Habit’s. ■ 1917 . 7,156 $43,815,992 $85,161,268 50.8 ■ 1916 . 8,978 46,108,919 94,878,447 48.6 1 1915 .10,714 107,481,279 177,624,631 1914 . 7,759 95,980,616 175,298,936 1913 . 7,142 59,426,721 113,844,067 1912 . 7,218 52,329,759 98,816,766 1911 . 6,479 53,505,981 98,851,176 1910 . 5,905 43,912,982 91,728,602 1909 ..... 6,149 39,063,998 80,561,976 1908 .... 7,562 103,302,640 178,782,769 1907 . 4,791 41,993,823 76,546,299 1906 . 4,873 29,037,133 59,081,289 1905 .. ... 5,241 33,224,858 62,686,427 1904 . 5,388 45,878,407 83,235,171 1903 . 4,790 29,629,703 60,251,563 1902 _ 5,262 27,018,862 56,927,688 1901 . 5,465 32,435,338 66,138,362 1900 .... 4,SS0 27,475,514 60,064,208 —— 5,049 22,890,645 50,304,2.53 6.429 36,606,918 72,120.341 1897 i_ 7,024 53,611,782 93,656,495 1896 .... 7,602 60,495,568 105,535,936 1895 !.... 6 597 44,153,644 79,707,861 1894 _ 6,528 44,970,825 82,555,3-39 1S93 . 6,239 105,371,813 170,860.222 1892 . 5,351 28,935,106 56,535,521 1891 ..... 6,037 48,206,896 92,370,282 1890 .. 5,466 ■ 30,025,116 62,867,962 1889 '.... 5,91$ 32,803,940 67,411,711 1888 ...5,254 34,834,746 64,987,022 1887 !.... 5 072 25,643,108 52,77S,829 1886 . 5,461 25,509,317 53,241,432 1885 ....6,106 32,955,405 • 68,570,505 1884 .... 5 444 70,730,078 124,104,357 1883 ..... 5,296 39,887,202 73,594,205 1§82 . 3,649 27,329,765 52,383,289 1881 . 3,256 19,783,523 39,533,705 1880 .... 2,399 14,727,907 31,837,303 :i878 . 3,810 29,690,478 60,508,756 Failures for six months of 1917 totalled 7,156, a decrease of 20 per cent, from a year ago and of 33 per cent, from 1915, while smaller by lesser percentages than in 1914 and 1912. Liabilities for six months totalled $85,161,268, a decrease of 10 per cent, from 1916, and less than half the total of liabilities recorded in the same periods of 1915 and 1914. 54.7 I 52.1 ■ 52.fi I 54.2 ■ 47.8 I 48.4 ■ 57.7 ■ 54.8 1 I 53.0 I 55.1 I ' I 4 7.4 I 49.0 I 45.7 I 45.5 | 50.0 57.0 57.0 II 55.0 54.0 61.,0 51.0 53.0 48.0 48.0 53.0 48.0 48.0 48.0 56.0 54.0 53.0 CARNEGIE’S'BIRTHDAY ■ '. In a few days public libraries through¬ out the United States will celebrate the one hundredth anniversary of the birth of An¬ drew Carqegie, who gave* .$65,000,000 for building and equipping some 3000 libraries. Carnegie is one of the American immor¬ tals-—for one reason only—the manner in which he gave his money away. Carnegie the steel magnate is forgotten—-the average American youngster of today probably doesn’t know how he made his money, and that may be why he is now honored. The Carnegie' business methods had no¬ thing on earth to recommend him. They merited' only the strongest condemnation for they were bad even for that ruthless period. Carnegie ,/helped! to develop the. country and thus rendered a service—-but it was wholly involuntary. When the fortune was made a new! Car¬ negie emerged, the philanthropist who gave a g;reat« fortune away in such a way as to do the greatest possible good. He it was who said it was a crime to die rich and he didn’t; the vast estate was nearly all gone at his. death. It lives today in the 3000 libraries he founded, one of them in Baker. So Carnegie is still a great man and. al¬ ways will be. As a;steel magnate he. is al¬ most forgotten and soon will be entirely forgotten as the generation that knew, him i dies off. He won immortality by giving,! whereas if he had only got he would Soon! have' lapsed Into nothing as did most of the other multimillionaries of his time. What a lesson this conveys .to such of America’s rich men as are wise enough to ! see it. ■ ■ happens, but not arriage is only the by Melvyn Doug- advantage of her )ly it to his de- old as well as to at’s where the ex- precocious nine- a neurasthenic m his soul left by ige—added to the >usiness troubles— ; a very cheery secretary has with just as soon nd is on her finger. as a lighthearted town, does his best ;rt out of her trou- ,rms. ,y in the window of )re is one of the for shooting Sunday, only a s«ial number of skeet and trap shooters were on hand for the turkey shoo; at the course. In the five-man trai event, Earl Rudolph won the : turkey Bill Karp shot a perfect score foi high in the seven-man “rabbit* contest thereby winning the gob' bier. No other copetition was fired Another turkey shoot will be helc next Sunday. RAW FURS Better prices this year. Season open: Nov. 15th. We want your business as always. Hides, Pelts, Wool, Scrap [ Metal and Purs. BAKER HIDE & FUR CO. Opposite Consolidated Truck Depol * Baker, Ore. — Tom Parker, Prop. : S ACHE'S DEEP .8— (/P) — The mile- ass remained open hough Snow Was 18 plows were' worK- e of the summit. EPIT WEST & CO. Funeral Directors Ambulance Phone 77 ! XMAS SPECIALS Lingerie asd Neckties by Realsill at HALF-PRICE! If your repre sentative hasn’t called, drop a car to— 1 REALSILK REPRESENTATIVE 2525 11th Street Bake KIT - S TE a has invested safely and Savings, Building and Loan this Association to be wor- lari Cuf Shirts Shaping I Finishes THE WORLD: SATUR ANDY ’O THE CLEEK AND THE COD BASKS AGAIN IN CITY SUNSHINE. Mr. . <^n.d M r.s . ANDREW CARM ZQ \E S>OiSSE> VLSTE.RIxiVY' -LSPECUXIV So,- the. V/OKLD Back From Bar Harbor Sum¬ mer, 'Fairly Well/ He Poses Before Camera in Garden. After'four months at Bar Harbor, Andrew Carnegie, close to his eigh¬ tieth birthday, returned to his home Fifth Avenue yesterday, delighted get back, in spite of the rumor at last spring’s attack of grip had visible effect and that signs of leness were seen,' Mr. Carnegie fairly active in alighting from strain. His skin looked healthy famed^ twinkle in his eyes •iin’dfmmed. well,” was the message he sent to the newspaper men who gath¬ ered at his home to welcome him. As if. to prove it, he posed for a pho¬ tographer in his garden, whither he had retreated to bask in the sun al¬ most the minute he reached home. But he did not wish to meet report¬ ers or discu&s topics of general inter¬ est until a later day, he sent word. In telling of Mr. Carnegie’s sum¬ mer programme, his secretary, John A. Poynton, said the family left this city June 3 for Bar Harbor and there occupied a spacious house on a point of land that jutted into the ocean. . On a private golf course Mr. Carnegie played frequently. While he liked to compete with old Col. Bogey, clock golf pleased him better and, being a good putter, he could defeat all com¬ petitors. Fishing? Not even old Izaak him¬ self was more enthusiastic. Cod .and haddock particularly -were victims of* the Laird’s line. Landing twenty to forty a day was child’s play. Blustery weather on the ocean de¬ lighted the ironmaster, Mr. Poynton said. He was happiest when his yacht, El Placlta, was being pitched about. “Great,” was his word of greeting to every big comber. > Mr. Carnegie enjoyed Bar Harbor so much that he did not mind giving up his yearly trip ' to I Europe. With Mrs.. Carnegie and Mr. Poynton, Mr. Carnegie left Bar Harbor Thursday afternoon in Charles Schwab’s pri¬ vate car Loretta. It was to connect in Providence with .the Boston train, arriving here at 6.23 A. M., but missed ( the connection. It was attached the train that ..had left the Hub a' 8.20 A. M. and arrived at the Gram' Central Station at 2.09. The party used : the elevator at the end of the baggcige room at Forty- fifth Street and/Park. Avenue. Three automobiles toojgi'amily servants and egie home.. AY, OCTOBER 16, 1915. KS, BONDS AND BUS M S. and the day’s net change? i DEALINGS IN BONDS Low, Close. Net change. Bid. Asked. 87 87 —1 85% 88 33% 33% - % 33% 34 293/4 29% - % 29, 30% 6 6 —• 5% 6% 15% 13% — % 15 15% 37a 6 + Vn 4% 6 67 57 ~1% 56% 57 4 % 4% — % 4% ■ 5 1 9 8% - % 9 10 5/2 5% + % 5% 5%' 128/2 129% +4% 128% 129% 83 83 —2 82% 83% 29 % 30 + % 29% 30 I 66/2 66% + % 66 66% , 8 8 — 8 10 1 Wa 15% — % 15 153% , 146 146 —3 145% 146 1 99 99% + % 99% 99% j 41% 41% +1% 40 42 81% 82% - % 82% 82% 29 29 — Vs 29 29% 1 11514 115% — 115 1153/4 72% 73 + 1 72% 73 110% 1103,4 - Vs 110% 1103% 30% 30% + % 30% 32 573/ 9 57% — % 573/s 573% 119 119 - % 1183/4 119 84 84 +4 80 85 47 47 —■ 47 48 73 ' 73 --•r% 75% 80 40% 40% — 403/4 41 112 1133% +1% 111 113 £0/2 703/4 1 — 70% 70% m 108 +1% 106% 108% mm 163% —1% 163 165 rm 2% + % 2 3 47'/a 47% + % 47% 47% 25% 25% — % 2,5% 25% 77% 77% + % 77% 78 42% 42% - % 40% 43% 53 53% —1% 53 53% 104 104 + % 103% 104 % % — % % 5 5 - % 4% 5 6 % 6 % — 6 6 % 16% 16% + % 16 17% 33 33 —1 31 34 79% 81% +3% 79% 81% 81% 81% - % 80 83 17 17 — % 15 17 37% 37% —2% 37 38 153% 153% —1% 153% 154 124% 124% + % 124% 125 59 59 —1 59 60 96% 96% —. % 96% 963% 143% 143% +12% 142 145 20 20% —* 20 20% 593/i 59% - % 58% 60 , 198 198 _i 185 200 ' 159 160 — 2 159% 160 109% 109% — % 109 110% 66 66% - % 66% 66% 167 167 ~i% 166 167 12% 12% — 12% 13 62% 62% —1% 62% 63 100 100 +1 99 100 6% 6% - % 6% 63/4 79 80 H-5 80 82 104 104 — 102 107 134% 134% -- % 134% 134% GOVERNMENT AND MUNICIPAL BONDS. Sales (in 1,000s). High. Low. Close. 116 Anglo-French 6a . 98 07% 97% 1 Imp Jap 1st ser 4%s. 81 81 81 10 Imp Jap 2d ser . 77% 77 10 Imp Jap 2d ser 4%s G stp 73% 73 10 Rep of Cuba 6s 1904 . 94 93' 2 N Y City 4%s 1957 May. 102 102 - — 81 N Y City 4%s 1965. 101% 101% 101% 3 S I City 4%s 1963. 102 101% 102 1 N Y City 4s 1958. 95% 95% 95% 11 N Y City 4a 1959. 95% 95% 95% Rume of Prices 93% 54 54 54 RAILWAY AND MISCELLANEOUS BONDS. 2 Alaska G M 6s. 134 134 134 1 Am Agr Chcm 1st 5s..... 102 102 102 8 Am Agr Chem deb 5s.... 95% 95% 95% 46 Am Smelt & Ref 6s.... 110% 108 110% 9 Am Tel & Tel col 4s .... 89 88% 89 288 Am T & T cvt 4%s f p 104% 104 104 1 Am Writing Paper 5s.... 61 6i 61 5 Armour & Co real es 4%s 92 92 92 14 A T & S F gen 4s. 92% 92% 92% 4 A T & S F adj 4s. 83 83 83 9 A T & S F adj 4s stpd.. 83 83 83 4 A T & S F crt 5s 1917. 102 19 A T & & F cvt. 43 I960.. 106 5 Atlanta & Birminghaift 4s 84 10 Atl Coast line 4s.. 6 Atl C L 4s L & N div... 25 Balt & Ohio pr 1 3%a. 23 Balt & 01rl6 4s. 126 Balt & Ohio crt 4Vis 1 B & O 3%s P J & M div 87 % 1 Balt & 0 i3%s SW div.. 88% 1 Beth Steel 1st ext 5s.... 102% 16 Beth Steel ref 5a. 100% ICO 8 Bklyn E T ooa & notes.. 100 100 iw 6 California Gas & Elec 5s. 94% 94% 94% 9 Canada Southern 5s. 101 100% 101 2 Cent of Ga Ry con 5s.... 97% 97% 97% 24 Central Leather gen 5s... 100% 100 100 2 Central New England 4s. . 73 73 73 63 Central Pacific 1st 4s_ 86% 88% 86% 1 ■ Central Pac Short'Line 4s 85 85 85 2 Central RR of N J 5s_ 112 112 112 5 Ches & Ohio con 5a. 103% 103% 103% 86% 86% 69% 1 Ches & Ohio ref 5a, -_ I Ches & Ohio gen 4%s... 8 Ohes & Ohio cyfc 4%s.... 21 Chi B & Q gen 4s. 90% 00 : 13 Chi B <& Q joint 4s. 97 94 1 Chi & East Ill con 6s..,. 97 97 1 Chi & E Ill ref & imp 4s 15 15 17 Chi Great West 4s., 60% 69 2 C M & St P gen 4a aer A 88 87 1 1 C M & St P gen 3%s a B 80 80 7 C M & St P gen 4%s t r 100 99 6 Ohi M & St P cvt 4%s.. 97% 97 10 C M & St F deb 4s 1934 88 88 11 Chi M &. St P gen 5s. ... 105 104 11 C M&StP As C M&P S d 86% 86 4 Ohi & Nff gen 3%s. 79% 79' 3 C & NW St L P&NW 5s 104% 104 1 Chicago Railways 5s. 95% 95 10 Chi B I & P 1st 6s. 102% 102 46 Chi R I & P deb 5s.... 47 46 13 Chi R I & P ref 4s. 65% 65 87 Chili Copper 7s. 132% 130 1 0 C C & St L gen 4s.... 72% 72 2 C C.C&St L eol 4s St L d 75% 75 2 Col & South 1st 4s.. S8% 88 2 Col & South ref 4‘' - 2 Consol Gas of CM __ 71 Consolidated Gas 6s. 119% 3 Com Products s f 5s 1934 93 ** 1 Cuban-A mer Sugar 6s-100 ! 31 Del & Hud conv os...... 102 1 2 Del & Hud 4s 1916...... 100% 2 Del & Hud ref 4s_... 04% 11 Den & Rio G ref 5s. 55% 55 1 Det Edison Co 1st 5s.102 102 9 Dist Securities Carp 5s.... 68 ' 68 17 Erie 1st con 7s. 1C9% 109 2 Erie gen lien 4s. 72% 72 : 5 Erie ■ contort As sot A,..,. 68 • 67 1 28 Erie convert 4s ser B.... 78 77: 15 General Electric deb 6s... 104 104 10 Granby Mining 6s. 104% 104: 5 , Hudson & Man ref 5s_ 71% 7U II Hudson & Man ine 5s.... 25% 25 10 Indiana Steel 5s... 101 101 14 Illinois Central ref 4s.... 85 85 4 minois Central' 4s 1952. . <34% 84% 84% 15 Illinois Steel deb 4%s.... 87% 87% 87% 21 Insp Con Copper 6a 1019. 177% 175 175 44 Insp Con Copper 6s 1922. 177% 174 , 175 130 Interboro-Metro 4%s_ 76 75% 75% 8 Iuterboro R T os. 96% 96% 96% 23 Int Mer Mar col 4%s.... 77 76% 77 52 Int Mer M col 4 Vis s certs. 77 76% 77 l 118% i ioo% 402 T7% Vfil 1 lip Sales (in 1,000s). 2 Inter Paper cvt 5a. High. Low. Close. 92% 92% 84% 84% 61 59%' 93% 93% 35% 36% 86% 87 5 Iowa Central 1st 5s,. 80% 80% 80% 3 Iowa Central ref 4s. <47% 47 47% 1 Kan City South 1st 3s.... 69% 69% 69% 2 Kan City South 5s. 91 91 91 11 ICan City Ter 1st 4s. 85% 85% 85% T§ Lackawanna Steel 5s i960 94 % 93% 94 1 Lac Gas of St L 1st 5s... 101 101 101 1 Lac Gas of St L ref 5s.. 99% 99% 90% 6 L S & M S deb 4s 1028. 93% 93% 93% 1 L S & M S deb 4s 1031. 93 93 93 1 Long Island ref 4s. 83 83 83 1 Lorillard Co os. 09% 99% 99%, 2 Louis & Nash col tr 5s.. 103 102% 102%, 33 Louis & Nash uni 4s... 2 L & N 4.s At K C dir.. 7 Louis & Nash St L 3s.. 1 La & Jeff Bridge 4s.... 1 Metro Tel & Tel 6s. — _ 10 -Mirtn & St L con 5s. 82- 82 82 l Mo K & E. 1st 5s. 89 89 89 1 Mo K & T 1st 4s. 76 76 76 5 Mo K & T 2d 4s. 51% 51% 51% 2 Mo K & T s f 4%fl. 43 19 Mo Pacific con 6s. 03 13 Mo Pacific cvt 5s. 36 32 Mo Pac eol tr 5a 1917... 87 8 Mo Pae col tr 5s 1920.... 75% 75 48 Mo Pacific 4s... 36% 35% 36% 5 Morris & Essex 3%s. 84%, 84% 84% 1 Nat HR of Hex con 4%s. 55 55 55 12 National Tube 5s. 99 99 99 206 N Y C & H R deb 6s.. 107% 107% 107% 18 N Y C & H R ref 4 Vis... 88% 88% 88% 24 N Y C & H It deb 4s, ... 88% 87% 8S% 7 N Y C & H R ref 3%*.. 78% 78% 78% 16 N Y C L S col tr 3%s.., 73% 73% 73% 5 N Y C M C col tr 3%s reg 71% 71% 71% 2 N Y C & St L 1st 4s... 91 91 91 10 N Y Railways ref 4s...... TO 69% 70 55 N Y Railways adj 5». 47% 47' 47% 10 N Y Telephone gen 4%a.. 97 97 97 5 Norf & West gon 6s. 117% 117% 117%,. 26 Norf & West con 4s. 91% 91 91% 20 North Pacific 1st 4s,. 91% 91%, 91% 82 North Pacific gen 8s. 63% 63% 63% 4 Oregon & Oal 1st 5s.100% 100% 100% 27 Oregon Short Line ref 4s.. 90 89% 90 3 Oregon W RR & N 4s.. 83% 83% 83% 2 Pacific Tel & Tel 5s. 97% 97% 97% 11 Penn Ry con 4%s. 103% 103% 103% 56 Penn RR gen 4%s. 98% 08 98% 5 Penn RB 4s 1048 . 98% 98% 98% 1 P C C & St L 4%s ser B 99% 99% 99% 10 Public Service of N J 5s.. 88 88 ' 8S 18 Ray Consol Copper 6s.... 183 130 130 16 Beading gen 4s. 93 93 03 7 Rep Iran & Steel 5s 1934 94% 94% 0.4% 7 Rio Grande West 1st 4s.. 70% 70 70 1 Rio Grande West col tr 4s 59 59 59 1 St L I M & So gen 5s... 06% 96% 96% 1 St L I M & So rfg 4s... 65 65 65 1 St L I M & S R & G div 55% 55% 5-i% 51 St L & S F 5s 1927. 49 48% 49 5 St L Sc S F 5s 1927 certs 47 47 47 12 St L & S F 5s 1931. 99% ,99% 99% 3 St L & S F ref 4s certs.. 69% 69% 69% , 7 St Louis SW 1st 4s. 73% 73% 73% 3 St Louis. SW con 4s. 59 , 58 58 7 San A & A P 1st 4s.... 71% 71% 71% 69% .11 11 Seaboard Air Line ref 4s.. 19 Seaboard Air Line adj 5s. 1 South Caro & Ga 1st 5s.. 2 South Bell Tel & Tel 5s. 3 South Pae eol tr 4s.. 119 South. Pac col cvt 4s.... et 18 South Pac ref 4s......... 86. 109 South Pac conv 5s...... 10,3' 31 South Pac S F Ter As.... 80 18 South Railway con 5s.... 99 12 South . Railway gen, 4s.... 67 1 Tenn C I & RR 6s B div 101 1 2 Ter RR As of St L ref 4a $Q 2 Texas Company cvt 6s.... 102 : / 5 Texas & Oklahoma 5s- 69 65 Third Avenue adj 5s. 79% 7S ; 1 Tol & Ohio Cen 1st 5s.. 101% 101 4 Union Pacific cvt 4s. 02 ' 92 11 Union Pacific ref 4s. 86% 86 : 10 United RR of 3 F As.... 46 457*, 5 iU S Rubber S f 6s. 102% 102% 102% 112 United States Steel 5s... 102% 102% 302% 4 Virginian Railway 5S. 94 94 94 8 Wabash 1st 5s.....102 102 102 10 Wab ref 4s Eq. Tr Ctfs f p 94 94 94 75 W ref 4s Eq Tr ctfs 1st pd 36 36 36 35 W ref 4s ETctfs stp 1st pd 34% 33- 34% 2 Western Electric 5a-- 101% 101% 101% 9 Western Maryland 4s. 72 72 72 1 Westing Elec Mfg s f 5s.. 105% 105% 105% 149 Westing Elec Mfg conv 5s 142 137 140%, 4 Wis Cen gen 4s......, 82%, 82% 82% t 101% 92 86% COMPARISON OF BOND SALES. Total sales Get. 15, 1915..... $3,782,00C Same day of week last year.y.....Exchange closed From Jan. 1 to date.743,673,(Kf Same period in 1914....424,967,OH COMPARISON OF STOCK SALES* Total sales Oct. 15, 1915........ Same day of week last year................Exchange From J^n. 1 to date.. range, to thi BritiJ v a) ul a PARIS, May 23.-As the result of at¬ tacks at three points In the neighbor¬ hood of Craonne last night, the French troops conquered the last of the observa¬ tion points dominating the valley of the Ailette River (south of Laon) and considerably enlarged their positions on the northern slopes of the Vauelec and California Plateaux. They also carried three lines of trenches east of the vil¬ lage of Chevreux on the low ground north of Yille-au-Bols. Over 400 prisoners were taken. salicylicacid in these tablets the reliable Bayer manufacture. ROCKEFELLER GIFT OF $25,100,500 Continued from Page 1. Jturphy, Dr. Wallace Buttrick, John D. Rockefeller, Jr., Wickliffe Rose, Julius Rosenwald, Martin A. Ryerson, Dr. George E. Vincent, and Frederick Strauss. rawn rm/icc CT4PT' THE m - providing that after Jan. 1, 1918. all ? ^.persons, firms, corporations, and as- V sociations subject, to . the income, mu- nitions, and excess profits tax shall i remit for their taxes when returns are v made. Under the existing law taxes may be paid within three months after the returns are made. Mr. Fitzgerald said this arrangement imposed needless book- keeping upon the Treasury Department. ' • Increase of second class postage rates on advertising portions of publications I; is proposed in an amendment to the War Revenue bill introduced today by Senator Hardwick, of Georgia, lit would r leave the present cent a pound rate on news sections' of publications, but in¬ crease that of advertising, sections to 3 cents a pound until July 1, 1918; 6 cents ( a pound until July 1, 1919, and 8 cents a r pound thereafter. REPORT TORPEDOING OF AN AMERICAN SHIP Marine Men Hear That 8,000-Ton Vessel, Formerly German, Was Sunk in Mediterranean. An unofficial report was circulated yesterday in shipping circles that an eight-thousand-ton steamship flying the American flag and formerly of German registry had been torpedoed and sunk in the Mediterranean. Shipping men said that the only one of the German ships answering that de- . ecripiton which had sailed from New York recently was the Tras Os Montes, formerly, the Btilow, which was interned at Lisbon and later in the war was seized by the Portuguese Government. The steamship left New York a month aijo for Havre under charter to the French Government with a Portuguese crew and flew the flag of that nation. It wa-s possible, shipping agents said, that she might have been loaded again at Havre for an Italian port; but she would not have been under the Ameri¬ can flag. The Tras Os Montes came to New York under charter to the Canadian Steamships, Ltd., to run on the passen¬ ger service between New York and Ber¬ muda, but it was decided she was not needed on account of the falling off of traffic 1 due to the war. She was. a twin screw steamship built at Geestemnnde In 1906 for the North German Lloyd passenger and freight service,from Bre¬ men via the Suez Canal to China and Japan, and was 462 feet 4 inches long, of 8,965 gross tonnage, 57 feet 6 inches beam, and 36 feet depth of hold. DUTCH CRITIC DERIDES OUR AID TO THE ALLIES Calls Promise of Pershing Divis¬ ion a Bluff, Our Preparations 1 Senseless Advertisement.* Special Cable to The New York; Times. THE HAGUE, May 23.—-The military critic of De Nieuwe Courant expresses contempt of the help America is likely to give the Entente in the course ‘ of this war. “ Why do they pretend to be so silly? ” he asks. “.Will they never take this war seriously? Whom do they expect to intimidate with their senseless ad¬ vertisement—the Central Powers or the neutrals? ” He then observes that the report that an American division will soon fight in France is sheer bluff. “Ach!” he says. “ That story of General Pershing coming is ‘all humbug, misplabed and childish boasting for such a serious He asks wbat is the use of sending a Bquadron of American destroyers when “ the whole British fleet cannot tackle the submaririe danger.” Finally he remarks that the volunteer system is to have preference in bring¬ ing the .American army,to war strength. “We khow,” he says, “what difficul¬ ties, disappointment, and delays the volunteer system produced in England, which was so close to the war, apd can ALL WAR SUPPLIES Continued from Page 1. *ard it as likely that the new com¬ mission will take over many duties of the council, including the duty of keep¬ ing in close touch with transportation facilities. Meantime the purchases of the Allies in this country are progressing about as usual, with the important addition that the Government already is keeping in close touch with the manner in which they are spending money lent to them, and in some cases actually directing how it shall be spent. Thus, in the case of Russia, American officials are seeming to place advantageously orders for 500 locomotives and 10,000 cars. This equip¬ ment is needed at the earliest moment, it is understood, but the Government has undertaken to see that there shall be no unsettlement of business condi¬ tions in this line due to the placing of so large an order. Britain's Huge Purchases. . Plans for the commission east an In¬ teresting sidelight upon the prospective needs of the Allies and the methods pur¬ sued in the past of making purchases here. Statistics, never published but laid before American officials, tell in many formidable tabulations, often startling in their import, of the oblfga- 1 tions given by foreign Governments here and of the purchases made. The full amount of allied purchases in America since the war started prob¬ ably will be made public soon. The figures are understood to reveal that the part Great Britain is reputed to have played as banker here for all the Allies has not been overestimated. The record of virtually all the money she has spent here for herself and her allies is under close scrutiny as an index to future requirements. Contracts entered into before America formally accepted Germany’s challenge to war still; are in effect, in many cases, . and some of the funds supplied the Allies are being applied on these con¬ tracts. In many instances, it is under¬ stood, Great Britain pledged her credit for supplies to go to her allies, notably Russia, and the adjustment of the tan¬ gled skein of agreements involves days of intensive effort which must elapse before the proposed new agreement will become entirely effective. Russia’s demands are revealed as ex¬ tremely heavy. The report of the Brit¬ ish commission, headed by Lord Milner, which went to Russia early in the year and made an exhaustive study of her requirements, has been placed, verbatim, before the American officials. The re¬ port is understood to reveal that Russia is,in a position to utilize virtually all the supplies, many of a non-military nature, • for which transportation facilities can be found. Some of these supplies will be sent from "Great Britain, some from other allied nations, and some from the United States. The report is complete for the year of 1917 and discloses, among other things, Great Britain’s confidence that Russia will continue to remain active factor in the war. How much of the burden of Russia’s needs will be assumed by this country is to be determined and probably will be the subject of suggestions by the com¬ mission headed by Elihu Root. The program has not yet reached the stage where it can be said definitely to what extent the United States will be called upon to finance the Allies during : the first year of war. Indications are, however, that the $3,000,000,000 loan al¬ ready authorized hardly will be suffi¬ cient. To Change Russian Envoys. Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES. PETROGRAD, May 22. — M. Pkl6o- logue. the French Ambassador here, who has left for Paris, will not return. Russian diplomatists abroad will be re¬ placed by men who are in agreement with the new foreign policy. NEW PEACE EFFORT Amsterdam Catholic Organ Hears the Emperor Will Act at the Pope’s Instigation. WANTS POLISH CONCESSIONS Charles Hopes to Place Austrian on the Throne—Banking on Peace with Russia. AMSTERDAM, May 23, (via London.) —The Roman Catholic newspaper Tijd says that it understands on good au¬ thority that in accordance with the wishes of Pope Benedict the Austrian Court is initiating a new peace effort. LONDON, Friday. May 24.—The. Am¬ sterdam correspondent of The Times, referring to rumors of a Catholic peace move, says that it has been repeatedly stated in Vatican circles that Mgr. Pa- celli, the new Papal Nuncio to Munich, bears aft autograph letter from Pope Benedict for the King of Bavaria and Emperor William. These reports, the correspondent adds, are to • the. effect that it is certain that the Nuncio is taking important com¬ munications for both Governments, con¬ cerning which the greatest 1 secrecy is being observed. Special Cable to The New York Times. LONDON, May 23.—Information has been received in authoritative quarters here suggesting that Austria is endeav¬ oring tq induce Germany to promise that the head of the revived Kingdom of Poland shall be an Austrian Prince. Developments are being watched with great interest, as indicating either that Germany feels the necessity of making concessions to her ally in order to coun¬ teract tendencies toward making a sep¬ arate peace which have recently devel¬ oped irr the Dual Monarchy, or that Ger¬ many’s military grip on Austria is less strong than is usually supposed. It is believed that any concession on the point of the Polish Kingship would be extremely distasteful to Berlin, and if it should be made it would be inter¬ preted as clearly showing that Ger¬ many realizes that she must humor Austria to keep her in line. BANKS ON PEACE WITH RUSSIA. Austria’s Only Hope Said to Rest on That and a Good Harvest. Hopes of peace with Russia and of this year’s crops being better than those of last year have during recent weeks been the sole factors in whatever opti¬ mism existed in Austria-Hungary con¬ cerning the outcome of the European wail, according to a staff correspondent of The Associated Press, who has just returned from Vienna. It was thought that if Austria reached an understanding with Russia that would incline the Entente Goverments to enter negotiations l’or peace, or that in the absence of such an inclination on their part the troops of the Central Powers on the cast front would be re¬ leased for operations against the Ital¬ ians and the Allies on the west front. This failing, a ..crop as good as, or better than, last season’s appeared to most classes the only cause for seeing anything bright m the future. The Government shared this view, and this led to several attempts by it to give the Russians to understand that peace with the Central Powers could be ob¬ tained under conditions considered favorable in Berlin and Vienna. Those concerned in the matter of food conservation in Austria-Hungary realize that only the very best of seasons could give the country a crop as good even as last year’s.. The country was before the war an exporter of foodstuffs, and the area of arable lands ’does npt enter into the question of war crops. For land not cultivated intensively food produc¬ tion in the monarchy has become largely a matter of fertilizing. This is especial¬ ly true of Hungary.’ Farms depending upon intensive cultivation have fallen short in crop returns principally for the reason that the necessary labor has not been available. „ Though the potash fertilizers of Ger¬ many are available to Austria-Hungary, every demand made by farmland fer¬ tilization is not met by them, fop the reason that these supply but a part of the elements needed to foster a vigor¬ ous plant life. In the past these ele¬ ments have been provided by stable manure for intensive farming and phos¬ phorous fetilizers imported from abroad. The latter can not be secured at present, and manure has become scarce owing to the great reduction in live stock due to the war, Farming in Austria-Hungary, as Germany, has for the last two years taken much more out of the soil than it was possible to return to it, the re¬ sult being that two crops have been raised on what may be considered as being the reserve store of the elements needed to produce a crop. With the duration of the war the possibilities of keeping the soil In good condition have decreased constantly, so that today most farmland In Central Europe may be considered as being on the verge of exhaustion. The best of weather this year could not produce a good crop, ac¬ cording to many landowners with whom the matter was discussed. The shortage in farm labor also argues against a good crop this year. Most of the farming is done by the women, the older children, men unfit for mili¬ tary service, and prisoners of war. The quality of their labor has been rather better than was expected, but it falls short by far of what the men In the trenches could do. Not alone is the ploughing and cultivation indifferently done, but the hands available are in many cases unable to cultivate the area allotted to them. Last year, for in¬ stance, much grain was ruined by being too long in the fields after ripening, rain spoiling it. A lack of vitriol, principal ingredient In spraying solution used to free crop plants from parasites, has also been a serious factor In poor crop returns in the monarchy. In many parts it has led to total failures in potato crops, and many of Austria-Hungary s splen¬ did vineyards and orchards have been ruined because vitriol, being a copper product, could not be obtained. SAYS ENGLAND’S AIMS AGRE E WITH R USSIA’S Cecil Indorses Petwgrad State ■ merit—Papers Sure Allies Are in Accord. merely the cohesion of the alliance, but the whole cause of democracy.” In declaring that the situation In Rus¬ sia is too often misrepresented by Rus¬ sian correspondents, The Chronicle says: “ Reference to Russian papers shows nothing easier than to misrepresent the revolutionary leaders by cabling select¬ ed phrases from their speeches. The balance of opinion, as expressed by the revolutionary leaders, seems entirely on the side of the conception of the war entertained by the western Allies. All of them condemn a. separate peace. All of them profess the keenest interest in re-establishing the efficiency of their army and pulling their weight in the common enterprise. All of them realize that Prussianism must be defeated jf democracy is to be safe. We see ho reason to believe there will be any dif¬ ference between their view and ours regarding ‘ annexation.’ ” The Chronicle concludes by condemn¬ ing those who deprecate the Russian Army or advocate a premature peace be¬ cause of Russian conditions, and says: “To do so is merely to play the ene¬ my’s gqme. Germany’s great and only hope is to end the war by October. She is neither willing nbr able to face car¬ rying it through another Winter, hence the activity of her propaganda in Rus¬ sia.” BELITTLES SOCIALIST THREAT. LONDON, May 23—Replying In the House of Commons today to criticisms from Russia of his speech on the war aims of Great Britain, delivered May 16, Lord Robert Cecil, Minister of Blockade, said they were based on an entire mis¬ conception of what he said. “I laid stress,’’ he explained, the fact that our aims and aspirations were dictated solely by our declaration to secure peace founded on national liberty and international amity, and that all imperialistic aims, based on force or conquest, were completely ab¬ sent from our purpose. The most re¬ cent declaration or the reconstituted Government of Russia is in complete harmony with this policy.” special Cable to The New York Times. LONDON. Thursday, May 24.—The Daily Chronicle, applauding editorially the speech of Premier Ribot in the French Chamber yesterday, says: , "All the best information before goes to corroborate his view. There is no- real division between the principles actuating the leaders of the Russian democracy and those actuating the dem¬ ocratic statesmen of Great Britain, France, Italy, and the United States in regard to the aims for which we fight and the kind of peace we desire to crown our efforts. Those who wantonly labor to discover such a division may, of course, if they labor hard enough, end by creating one, but their effort, which is exactly what Germany wants, threat- | ena and harms, as far as it goes, not Vorwaerts Says Pan=Germans Pre¬ dicted Revolution First. Special Cable to The New York Times, BERLINi May 23.—At the last sit¬ ting of the Reichstag Philipp' SchCide- raann, the Socialist leader, asserted that a revolution would certainly result in Germany if the Entente Powers should renounce all claims for annexation and indemnity and if the Central Powers should insist on continuing a war of con¬ quest. The whole house fell to booing and drowned Herr Scheidernann’s fur¬ ther remarks; which were supposedly in¬ tended to qualify his hasty' prediction. From two letters published .in Vor, warts today it becomes apparent that Herr Scheidemann did not wish the So¬ cialist Party to lag behind its principal opponent, the Pan-German Party, which as long ago as May, 1915, sought to in¬ fluence the Chancellor in the same way. At that time one of the Pan-Germans’ most active and distinguished exponents, in Bavaria,. General Baron vop Gcbsat- tel, wrote the Chancellor a letter in the name of the Executive Committee of the whole Pan-German organization, in which he offered “ a frank word as to the consequences if the war resulted in a peace not in conformity with the. ne¬ cessities of Germany.” He continued to explain that there was a great deal of evidence that the Imperial Government had- too closely limited the scope of its war aims, “ which fact impresses the most faithful and politically most re¬ liable circles as meaning the renuncia¬ tion of the advantages accruing from \ir certain victory.” “My conscience bids me to warn you,” the Generai wrote, “ that such a renunciation would foe a fatal political mistake, and that its next consequence would be revolution. That word must be pronounced. The monarchy would be endangered, perhaps even, deposed, hich would be the end of our nation. To this letter Dr. von Betjmiann Holl- weg replied May 13, 1915, saying that the war and its experiences had no doubt enhanced the national will, but had not succeeded in remedying lack of politi¬ cal understanding in Pan-German cir¬ cles, where, to judge from General Geb- sattel’s letter, this lack had evidently assumed grotesque proportions. If, as General Gebsattel said, there were signs of bitterness and even of despair among the people that pointed > an approaching revolution, then there ere but two possibilities. Either it was true, and then the responsibility would rest with those men who fanned this dangerous mood, or it was not true, which would mean a threat and an at¬ tempt by the minority to subject to their will the responsible leaders of the na¬ tion’s advisers of the Crown.” This correspondence is now exactly two years old, but it is still interesting becahse of the threat of revolution made by one distinguished member of the Pan- German and Feudal set. Herr Soheidemann’s remark in the Reichstag the other day was but a mockery of the attitude of General Baron von Gabsattel, for whose remarks the Conservative Reichstag Party would certainly hot have had any jeers. Two years ago General Gebsattel threatened the Chancellor with a revolution, but the German people never dreamed of ful¬ filling his prophecy, and If The New York Times- correspondent is any judge of the political situation, Herr Scheide¬ mann’ s prediction will have a like fate. CONFIRMS ALSACE PARTITION. “Decision Has Been Reached,” Hert- ling Tells a Hungarian Paper. AMSTERDAM, May 23, (via London.) —In jan interview republished by Ger¬ man newspapers from a Hungarian paper Count Hertling, Bavarian Pre¬ mier, is quoted as having said in re¬ gard to the reported partition of Alsace- Lorraine between Prussian and 7’ varia: 1 “ It is completely new and hitherto has been unknown that a decision has Count Hertling expressed the convic¬ tion that the war would end by Fall and said the results of the submarine warfare were satisfactory. MAY LET NEWSPAPER MEN G O WITH OU R ARMY Baker Says He Favors It, but Much Depends on What French Officers Say. WASHINGTON, May 23.—Assurances were given by Secretary Baker today that the American. press would he al¬ lowed as liberal representation as prac¬ ticable with the first expeditionary force to be sent to France under Major Gen. Pershing. Because the troops are going to French soil, he said,, it is deemed necessary to reach am under¬ standing in advance with the authori¬ ties there as to the limitations to be placed upon the publication of infor¬ mation which might be of value to the enemy. General Pershing will report to the department as soon as he ha3 talked the matter over with French officials and arrangements for American corre¬ spondents to accompany the troops will then be made. Secretary Baker indicated his own desire to tell the American people just as much as possible of what American troops are doing while at the front. LAUDS A MERICAN AIRMEN. Dutch Author Denies Stories of Failure of American Airplanes. Special Cable to The New. York Times. THE HAGUE, May 23.—The Dutch author Van Meel, who arrived here by the Ryndam, makes an interesting state¬ ment in the Telegraf regarding Amer¬ ican aviation. He denies indignantly stories circulated in Holland to the ef¬ fect that machines bought in America for the Dutch Indies have been failures. He explains that, owing to the mass of production, the. American machines do not display the high grade of exacti¬ tude ot' the European machines used since the war, but says they are never¬ theless very serviceable. Up to the present aviation has been encouraged mainly as a sport in Amer¬ ica, but aviators are devoting them¬ selves to air tricks which make Pe- f oud’s look cheap, the endurance record eing held by a woman in a trip from Chicago to New York. “ But now America has gone into war,” he concludes, “we shall see what she can do. Flying men are being trained and factories fitted for pro¬ duction. American energy will make itself felt in this connection, for Amer¬ icans stop at nothing, and when once they tackle a job they do it well.” No U-Boat Protest by Mexico. MEXICO CITY, May 23.—Ernesto Garza Perez, in charge of the Foreign Office, denies that Mexico has made any representations to Germany on the submarine issue. A dispatch from Am¬ sterdam, which stated that the Mex¬ ican Minister to Germany was believed to have protested on behalf of Mexico against unrestricted submarine warfare, was shown to Sefior Perez. He declared the Mexican Government had not au¬ thorized any such representations, and that Mexico had nothing to say to Ger¬ many on this subject fut;l critil dest.l has r pres;* Czarl gradl 1 1 trolliB agai;C Whl chief 1 liaise* instrrl again* intere* now, _ of thJ demai.* and A opinu ■ No .9 a gresl now ril power I istrati I revolt 1 nfiijritr j 1 9 It ■ every : again; J dent. Thirl Thert* ship in9 ship bil9 whatevi* vital mi9 the sarml and libei* The tasl* proached 1 clear uncul to be achif by the Pi shocking! '* which pr T body coul.'l The' Wsion shnwn ter avenu e westerly ? hway ’ f t IMll^ | a ^ oi ^ n a o'clo C k a A ! NEW YORK 71 MURRAY STREET BOSTON 8 BOSWORTH STREET CLIPPING FROM NEW YORK POST PENSION PLANTWWJ TEACHERS IS APPROVED CARNEGIE FOUNDATION THINKS DETAILS FAULTY, HOWEVER. Study Has Been Made of Federal Grants to States for Agricultural and Other Education. 1 The Ca ^2^Lj!' oun 5ation for the Ad- I , va ncemenTorTeachin^ its eleventh I annua 1 report, issued to-day, devote; considerable space to development )-day, devote development I ,s oo'mmended to ° lly ol N < I considered faulty in “ f neraI - but I ng- the amount of it s oef ,CUlar in ba; l ture salaries which f? I0n f a P°n fl j and andertaS the y ^ | ® ei Vice Pensions irresne f- 6at burden o I disability. respective of a g- e 0 . fmcnt for togto,Stop reoent “««■ Itto Federal Trea s ”r“ Jr er “ ts fr °™ Mcation makes a «<■„* f Voc ational edu- fhistory of previouT ■sources of special inf * frorn Feder |‘° thro^Sf tatfreat. a vie ■working: of such lerisiati Just,floa Uon an |of the reasons underlyin' 3 ” • l an<1 on Som I 131 '- Handel of the pvT 5 ltS prom <>tion ■Prepared a otudy f U ° n Sfaff ^ [tei'y of the Federal v. th le ^ isl ^ive his- [wljich will be puS£T f0r education, LT **" “ * ^etito^rCCnT This study traces the hi + h £z ° f » *’jo oopmOT »°’,S S oopMa| JO 1 ' , o°jM'ua a P , °* ‘"ST^* 000*68* •«» f ai -000'*«i "jfl o sma»s P ' oqs 5J o«U f}| o W »opwW« ajM oo°rf J“ uon [l n weP spoou »«' 1 ,«00 «HW>«’ ’ OTBMVn^! I UK «P | A ©H* 01 !1 owos ^ ssaootvs I BttOXStvp 9 tfl 1 'eJt9P 9 ‘ a ’l ’ 3ws a r„ vo»* s 3 m sU « I !» '®® „UB as 1 '> i> a“ ,oioS ill* n rej M - ott ^ ^ta. 8 reoT^VP^ 0 jQtfto 'I SomkV* Z m«V«l . z~*gzr£%»*s&\ a0 °B£2^m 8 PARK PL AC NEW Y.ORK IMG J^UEEAU 8 BOSWORTH ST. BOSTON Cable address — clipburq CLIPPING FROM BOSTON TRANSCRIPT , IvlAKCH 5* 1917 ciples which this bill preserves, or else, by leaping far in ac xnee of the times and !-> without effort to accomplish the good Of the future upon a basis of .sitch good as we have in the present, it will involve the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in a temporary period of financial and social disruption such, as only the most strenuous and intelligent re-constructive efforts can ever bring to an end. We are passing out of an age of intense individualism, when the great Values and benefits of individual initiative and personal enterprise have ac¬ complished much for humanity, but when they also have proceeded to extremes at A hich they cease to be values, and become menaces, requiring the superior hand of the State to check them with the reminder, ^'Everybody is better than anybody.” Be¬ yond doubt we are passing into a new era of social, action., .But the prime necessity is this—that the transition should not be abrupt, catastrophic, and wantonly destruc¬ tive of existing individual values and rights, but sane, measured and slow, even as a wisely conducted life is itself. In this particular instance, the change must come in some such conservative way as Representative Alien’s bill points. THE VOICE OF NEW ENGLAND surely has the right to CITIES ,. NOT PENSIONS. it is the first duty of the governor, the General Court, and everyone interested 'in old-age pensions, whether for or gainst, to give thoughtful study to the bill which nas just been introduced toy Representative J. Weston Allen. It would merit, this atten¬ tion if it were only-for the evidence given hy the bill that much .careful thought went into its making. There is another and greater reason commending it. When Governor; McCall delivered his in¬ augural address, the chief contribution he made was in the affirmation of certain ideals of social justice. As such the adr dress performed a signal service. Without doubt it pointed the way of the State in the direction in which the people’s voice today wills, that it should move. Performing this service iri the field of ideals, it must be ad¬ mitted, however, that Governor McCall made no very ardent effort to discover pre¬ cisely what was the next practical step, in the hard and fast field of abcomplishmeht, which the State might take without leaping too suddenly forward. It was not his task to do so, he miay aver. The General Court, and the committees and commissions ap¬ pointed by it, had that task in hand. Well, the importance of Representative Allen s bill to the General Conrt is precisely this- that it does appear a conscientious and thoughtful effort to take the next step next, allowing all possible room for progress in the future but burning no bridges behind it. In the first place the bill is founded on a principle which these columns have al¬ ways indorsed. In invoking the aid of the State toward the flotation of a plan for selling annuities at a very moderate rate, p does not scrap the old principle that there should be two parties to every bar¬ gain. It calls, for contribution on the part of individuals accepting the plan. . Going before all the people of the State with the proffer of very substantial assistance to them ih the provision of means which will take care of the people of the State in their old age, it has also the courage and the justice to ask that they should perform a service on their part, that they should con¬ tribute the capital funds which will ac¬ cumulate annuities for them in their old age. In this way two important principles are saved, one moral and the other ma¬ terial. On the moral side, the great social and individual values of thrift are pre¬ served. They, and the incentive to realize them in one’s individual life, are not sud¬ denly relaxed, as a .system or wholly non- contributory relief must relax them. Again, on the material side, the principle of con¬ tribution helps to insure the integrity of the whole system against financial ruin, and the State from bankruptcy. On this score we have the evidence of President Pritchett, who, after ten years of study of all manner of pension plans as tne presi¬ dent of the Carne gie Foundation for the Advancement of Teachftig, makes the con¬ fident assertion that any plan of pensions or annuities which does not involve a con¬ tributory feature .courts in the end Its own he full analysis and study of Represen- ve Allen’s hill would require a length exposition not possible here, or in any brief discussion. Much may be med merely from reading the bill itself L from an inspection of its major pro- als. Avoiding final commitment now to measure as today introduced, this much y be said at once with absolute con- nce: Whatever legislation the General irt passes this year, or in any year near hand, in an effort to promote the great s of social justice outlined by Mr. Me- i^either recognize the first prin- 1/Oor, v/nl‘ir iL is ctesirea lh main open. Laundry Ba| Four Size Jordan and the navy. This necessity to secure quick construction may require the delay of merchant craft. In an emergency like the present the needs of the Government are paramount. “The bill not only permits the payment of additional money to shipbuilders for quick construction and permits a sus¬ pension of the eight-liour law in the pres¬ ent emergency, but increases the pay of all men working on ships or munitions in Government plants whose pay is now less than $1800 a year. “To secure this speedy construction 1 expect to call upon the private shipyards, ammunition makers and constructors who furnish material and skilled workers to give the navy first call. Quite a number of contractors and builders have already volunteered to do so at prices that are reasonable. I expect to have consultation early this week with private shipbuilders, whose plants have the largest capacity with ref¬ erence to contracts for dreadnoughts, bat¬ tle cruisers, scout cruisers, submarines and other ships appropriated for in the bill. Some of them have already indicated that they will be ready to meet the department in any way to,expedite the building pro¬ gramme. It is believed that a'll of them will do so." DR. SANTOSUOSSO HEADS ELKS Elected Grand Exalted Ruler of Boston Lodge in Closely Contested Election Dr. Joseph Santosuosso has been elected grand exalted ruler of Boston Lodge of Elks in one of the most closely contested elections ever held by Boston Lodge. Out of a a membership of 2000 members, 1700 voted Sunday and it was not until five o’clock this morning that the result was known. Dr. Santosuosso won by a bare 100 votes over his opponent Logan McLean. Dr. Santosuosso’s election carries with it heavy responsibility because of the na¬ tional convention of Elks which takes place in Boston in July. Dr. Santosuosso is a Boston attorney and lives in Dorchester. He was been a member of the City Council, is active in politics and has been prominent in the North End. Italians In Ford Hall Italians gathered in Ford Hall Sunday' afternoon to listen to Professor Antonio Jordan Marsh Company Matt Campbell —His Second Season with Us GOLF INSTRUCTION may be had of this well-known expert, formerly instructor at The Coun¬ try Club and the Essex County Club. Appointments may be made by phone or otherwise. Six-Hole Putting Green All New Eng¬ land golfers are invited to the FREE USE of the green we have construct¬ ed on the Third Floor of our New Building. TueiJS ,/flPPWG ^^RESSiB/j UREAlJ NEW YORK BOSTON 71 MURRAY STREET 8 BOSWORTH STREET CUPPING FROM NEW YORK TIMES CARNEGIE FUND GAVE $4,910, 000 TO TEA CHERS Report Says Federal Grants for Education Have Been for Political Purposes. The eleventh annual report of th^WaSP® 18 * | negie Advancement ] of Teaching, made public last night, < showed that the Foundation has expend- ] ed $4,910,000 in allowances to retired teachers. The report for the year ended Sept. 30, 1916, shows a total endowment of $14,250,000,1 an . accumulated surplus of $1,327,000, Jnd an annual expenditure of $773,000. &f this, $39,000 was spent in administrajon, $47,000 in educational inquiry, and ||87,000 in retiring allow¬ ances and pen#ns. The average grant was $1,703. ' The report, included the replies from fifty-two institutions associated with the Foundation concerning the new contrib¬ utory plan of insurance and annuities proposed by the Foundation. The i port devoted much space to develop- I ments of plans for the pensioning of teachers, clergymen and industrial workers, and recorded the co-operation of the Foundation with the Committee on Pensions of the National Education Association. An abstract of the report made public by the Foundation reviewed the study I Of legal education lookihg to a stand- I ardization of training, and also a review I of the study of engineering education. I The report ,s*iid: “A study of Federal I aid for vocational education, now in I press, traces the legislative history of I Federal grants for education, reaching I the conclusion that these grants have al- II ways been made for political purposes I and without any well-considered educa- I tiowal reasons.'” t The report concluded with a study of I 10O varieties of college entrance certifi- I cates, and presents for consideration i uniform'Sddank. } ILEY'? y time between sevc twenty act cabar p] K3 yy d -1o44 u S imHmmumummmnmmi Jj'JREAU 8 BOSWORTH STi BOSTON CLIPPING from School of Household ' KconOm'ii nderson, S.B., Boston. the associated in- «^|^l|jitinuing' in 68 PARK PLACE NEW YORK BOSTON TRANSCRIPT 4UNE .11* ,1917 3 School of General Science—Mildred A. Da\ S.B., Alton Bay, N. H. TO ABANDON FREE PENSIONS But Carnlgi! Foundation’s Present Sys- tem Should Apply to Teachers Already in Service — Commission Recommends Annuity Insurance Plan Calling for Obligatory Participation New York, .Tune Ti^Tcontiriuation of the present pension system for teachersal ready in service and a new plan for teachers still . to come is recommended by a s P eC1 ^ ^__r s s „Tr ssS I Son ?f¥TOSty Professors, the As.socU- tion of American Universities the tion of American Colleges, and t 1 Issociation of State Universes Jor yeaxsl th . narnede Foundation had been b | —TSSy to O.. pension effort to evolve a system that within! to the teacher, financially sound, and within! re S“comm.°5ou recommended t<. «*«£ tees of the Carnegie Foundation, ^ s . | -r^eSS'So^S m I secure «£ SSSTSS in it protection “to ‘disability. 32 ^ “-Bassets I ° P M“en h e e ither'"n" a ilary or on *«etim l Un e 'wSStfeUfloVSme y n.? S k SIpora; ' ployer, wbether a govei direct financial oTd m o e r P d 6 E . i tory conditions. 0 Saining a pension SS3K- payable lipon' the fulfilment of cer- ‘Tn ="d“‘“at an g«vldua. Parhc^at- W &r?e°“ef‘a°SdS MttSf rfS-ssK&v^ IliiSsSp bersmf which are cooperating in the pen¬ sion system. . -With regard to the present pensions of the Carnegie Foundation, the commission Stresses the opinion *-* the extena.on to all teachers now stitutions of the pri, the present systeml their expectations, information wh ether c, sary to d o Wfka " Represented by ^ n the conduct of the war. This deman. 1 has found utterance in the resolution fol ^ tS e ^4° r n ° f f r a C r mittee on the CondSl or the War offered sometime ago by Serial tor John W. Weeks of Massachusetts ancT ,n .? e 0fflce ° f th^Smittef nS Jesire tw" J WilSQ ' n ^Parently hal lish^P , th 4 SUCh a comm ittee be estabJ lished, and members of his own party arj thi w S , b T USe ° f his un willingness to ga-J the word that will place Congress in closed touch with the doings of the day. Mr Will son never has.had much use for Congresl anyway except to get what he wanted oul ot .t. Whenever Congress showed a disoosil ^on to refuse him anything he wouffi^l m the Democratic leaders, crack the pa- vl whip over them and tell them to geWbu^T lushing the measure through. Until tael present extraordinary session they hovel submitted to this dictation with wonderful docrlity. The Republicans of Congress hav e T been ignored altogether, until of late, when P many of the Democrats having shown ’L disposition to do a little thinking for them- I selves, _ Republican members have been I called m that the situation might be given [ a non-partisan or bi-partisap aspect. But I when it comes to recognizing any special I committee of Congress created for the ex- ' press purpose of cooperating with the Ad¬ ministration in the conduct of-the war Mie I President apparently, has preferred to be f let alone. 1 Situation May Come to a Head .v AS m already ln ,tJmated in despatches to the Transcript, this matter may come to a head before long. Senator Weeks in due time, if the Committee on Rules remains impassive, may move to discharge the com¬ mittee and thus precipitate the whole is¬ sue upon the floor of the Senate. Con¬ gressmen are driven wild by letters from their constituents relative to affairs -down town of which they have no knowledge whatever, and a powerful sentiment, in both parties favors a closer rapprochement- bet ween Congress, and the powers that be. Cabinet officers also are embarrassed by Jl‘ 7. , k, !° ,W t0 be the sfcate of mind' meir m f f at ° rs . and they are profuse in Iheu invitations to senators and others P«n. W. D. B CARNEGIE POOR AFTER BIG GIFTS Money Given Away Totals $350,000,000.^5 HAS $20,03*0,000 LEFT Ironmaster Refuses Many Chances to Profit. Andrew Carnegie lias a fortune to- <5ay of only $20,000,000. Of the vast wealth which the ironmaster possessed when he started giving away his money twenty years ago in conformity with his principle Of dying poor, that is all he has left. He is now far down on the list of America’s rich men,. — a;: A'car may*. Jtk r $350,000,000. If interest were to be in¬ cluded on some of the funds he has set aside the total would reach nearly $400,000,000. This sum he has given away in pursuance of his belief, as ex¬ pressed by Dr. Henry S. Pritchett, president of the Carnegie Foundation, in his address Wednesday in Pittsburg, that the man who dies possessed of great wealth and who devotes no part of it to the public use has failed in life. The $20,000,000 which Mr. Carnegie has left he has devised in his will al¬ most entirely to charity. Yery little will go to his family. Thus, when his will is made public, it will be found that he really made good his boast of dying poor. There is, strictly speaking, record like his in this or any other country. - The actual amount of Mr. Carnegie’s •present fortune was disclosed to The Sun yesterday by one of the iron¬ master’s closest friends, a man who has had the direction of the disposal of much of this great wealth,. While pre¬ ferring that. his name be not Used, .this friend made it clear that he believed the time had come to make known the extent of Mr. Carnegie’s wealth to-day in proof of his deep sincerity of pur¬ pose and of the maimer in which he had carried out, his formula of the sponsibiiity of private wealth. Remarks Read to Inquiry. It was the remarks made by Dr. Pritchett at the . Carnegie birthday cele¬ bration in Pittsburg that led The Sun to make inquiry, as to the exact wealth to-day of Andrew Carnegie. In that ■address, ■*occasioned by the eightieth birthday of . the ironmaster and Pitts¬ burg’s benefactor, Dr. . Pritchett spoke of Mr. Carnegie as possessing now only a “moderate fortune” after giving away nearly $400,000,000. He declared that he had made vital the conception that the owner of great wealth was a trus¬ tee for the public, obligated to divide it for the public use. .. “The most noteworthy thing about Mr. Carnegie’s preaching of the doctrine of the consecration of wealth,” Dr. Prit¬ chett added, “is the fact that his practice has squared with his preaching. The great bulk of his accumulations, nearly $400,000,000, has been turned back by him to the public to be used in the cause of human betterment. He is to¬ day a man of moderate fortune.” Naturally this utterance, by the head of the .Carnegie Foundation served only to increase the speculation concerning the actual, extent of Mr. Oarnegie’s present wealth, speculation which has been indulged in generally ever since Mr. Carnegie began years agio to an¬ nounce his immense benefactions. That most of the computations made have been far from the mark is indicated by the facts disclosed yesterday. It had been estimated In some of these that Mr. Carnegie’s wealth was at least $ 100 , 000 , 000 . It -was when a definition was sought of President Pritchett’s term “moderate fortune” that the close friend of Mr. Carnegie’s was induced to give the . real figures of the ironmaster’s present wealth. He coupled this with the as¬ sertion that, of course, fortunes were largely relative; that the term “mod¬ erate” when applied to a fortune In the case of a man who had given away nearly $400,000,000, was not td be ac¬ cepted as meaning the same, as in the of a person of the average com¬ mence. No Desire to 3Iake Money, But, however small a fortune of $ 20 , 000,000 may be relatively in com¬ parison with the amount of Mr. Car¬ negie’s total benefactions, it does not mean, as this close friend of Mr. Car¬ negie explained, that the latter believes he has fulfilled his purpose. It was in this connection that this friend made known' the fact that Mr. Carnegie’s will devises almost his entire remaining wealth to charity. Mr. Carnegie’s immediate family con¬ sists of his wife, who was Miss Louise Whitfield, and their daughter Margaret, now 18 years old. He has two nephews, Thomas Morrison and William, Coleman Carnegie, the sons of his brother Tom. It Will be only a comparatively small inheritance which these will receive when the one time Carnegie fortune is taken into consideration. It was explained by this friend of Mr. I Carnegie’s that not since he first started giving away his-foi iane Las Ttrc-ir< master attempted to make money, has refused, for example, to huy single share of stock in any corpora¬ tion or to go into anything which while promising increased wealth for him in¬ volved the hazards of business. He has consistently for years kept his money in either bonds or real estate. ‘CONSTANTINE AND SEEBIA.” Hied Cabinets Unpardonably Blind ' as to His Views. To the Editor of The Evening Sun— r: Tour editorial “How Constantin© jstroyed Serbia” no doubt correctly thorns the reasons for Serbia’s awfu; ight, but nevertheless a terrible blame sts on one or more of those controlling e grand strategy of the Allies, for lich punishment too severe can hardly meted out, because the blunder was e of sheer stupidity, was a continuing under whose inception took place nearly ne months ago, and was at the same ne intimately associated with another ahaps equally great failure of the lies. The Dardanelles campaign was in Its iginal conception nearly perfect, both om a political and from a military andpoint. Venizelos on behalf of •eece had promised the cooperation of small army as a land force. At that ne Russia was in-Galicia and nearing racow. Bulgaria, while on bad terms ith both Turkey and Serbia, was as it ween the Teutons and the" ATiios ther inclined to favor the latter. Co- eration of Greece meant almost cer- inly Bulgaria’s aid against .the com- on enemy to the south, instead of rainst Bulgaria’s enemy to her west: e differences between Bulgaria and *eece and Serbia composed in action rainst Turkey, the common enemy of em all, and in addition Rumania, re¬ ived of the menace to her south, free act against Hungary; Turkey quicklv id surely done for and the history- of e Galieian and Poland campaigns per. ps completely changed. Constantine vetoed Venizelos, threw m down hard in fact, thereby giving rtain notice to any one at all familiar ith the w^iys of the Eastern rulers that was definitely committed to the iuton cause. Strictly military strategy then re¬ ared the abandonment of the Dar- melles enterprise, but as it has not been ade clear whether or not its prosecu- an was necessary to hold Russia in le, no British or French strategist can ; yet be held to blame for going ahead, oidirig- worth many* mes the losses suffered. There was no excuse, however, for siring Serbia’s safety. Greece’s hand lould have been forced at once or an •my sent to Serbia large enough to rve.as a certain check on Bulgaria, on reeee, or on both, and to make possible vasion from the south and east a Millions and Common Sense. Even should Mr. Carnegie’s remainder prove as low as $20,000,000, and there are some well founded doubts of the accu¬ racy of this estimate, he could not yet be called a poor man. Dr. Pritchett has de¬ scribed him as only moderately wealthy, but this, too, seems too much like satire. It must be understood, however, that the comparison is not being made with fort¬ unes, even great fortunes, in general, but with the one arrestingly colossal accumu¬ lation which Mr. Carnegie has so largely disposed of, much in the manner of the steam shovels which cut through Culebra. Only it has taken him longer to effect his cut, while he still shares with Colonel Goethals the obligation of copstant ex¬ cavation to keep it free of slides. Mr. Carnegie should~~be heartily con¬ gratulated not only on the size of his ac¬ complishment, but on the sound sense which for. the most part he has brought to it. Americans are beginning to learn that multi-millionaires with tender sym¬ pathies are something of a nuisance un¬ less they embellish their philanthropies with the same shrewd human understand¬ ing which marks the conduct of their vast business interests. There were fears, for example, that Mr. Carnegie’s passion for peace had outstripped his judgment. But that was before Europe burst into flame. Since then his tactful silence has seemed not the least of his golden beneficences to a sorely tried world, and for it we can forgive him a great deal of the vain ges¬ ticulation which preceded it. Mr. Carnegie, in fact, has given away his hund'reds of millions and retained his dignity. He has yet to propose an “At¬ lantic joy ride”; he is fitting out no “argosy of peace.” After eighty years of a. Napoleonic life (industrially speak¬ ing) he appears much further from his dotage than a certain comparatively youthful disciple from Detroit who for once shall be nameless. He has earned the world’s respect while failing to ef¬ fect world peace. His disciple, it is hard¬ ly necessary to say, will obtain neither. King often stays up far into the awaiting telegraphic replies to appeals, so that he can forward i contents at once to waiting relativ “All the telegraph lines are busy in attending to this corresp ence which has reached 2,500 mess a day. NO GIFT TO DANE: IS GERMAN HIM flGRlS British da. 3S to Say- report is- e on No- here, ac- s Agency: .upied our Kontula- ,s defeat- nd retired sh troops. l Russian [istrict of t received rmed the l’ecent Turks re¬ but that advance pparently forced to i attack. Berlin Not Likely to Cede Sch wig-Holstein as Reward fc ' Neutrality. • London, Nov. 28.—A Copenhagen patch to the Exchange Telegraph pany says: “The German government, in a lamation issued at Schleswig (capit the province of Schleswig-Holstein ferring to the reversion of this t< tory to Denmark after the war, ( as k gift from Gennany’s enemies a reward from Germany for Denm neutrality, states that “military op tions do not encourage the specula that Germany can give anything a and it would be unfair to Denmarl suppose the maintenance of her st neutrality should be dictated by of foreign payment.” Remarkable reports are in circula in the Danish capital regarding treatment of Danes in the nortl Schleswig-Holstein. There are over 100,000 inhabitants of Danish traction and of Danish tongue in territory, and ever since they came der Prussian rule there have charges that the Danes suffered pe cution, although for some years be the outbreak of the European war trouble had nearly ceased. It is now charged that the Dane: meeting with new affronts. Ger commanders have been drawing black lists of the South Jutlanders, are being punished with severity. Danish newspapers, in the prov are subjected to the most rigid cen ship. The “Heimdal” was suppre for eight days because it failed to tion the birthday of the German press, according to the editors, added that their protests that the press had expressed the desire to the day quietly did not serve to n the authorities from their stand in matter. Schleswig-Holstein is a provinc Prussia formed out of the duchie Schleswig, Holstein and Lauent f.ormerh£bg^mgi-~- "- MR. CARNEGIE AT 80. Mr. Andrew Carnegie has been called the happiest rich man in the world. He is certainly rich, very rich as fortunes go, yet for many years his unceasing flow of good spirits, his cheerfulness, his optimism, have re-, fleeted that state of mind and soul that men calf happiness. Mr. Car¬ negie has been happy, because he chose the right road to happiness. He lived laborious days in amassing his great fortune and no doubt there was joy for him in that, but we are confident that he has found yet great¬ er joy in spending his money.. Some years’ago he took it as a rule of con¬ duct that it was disgraceful for a man to die rich. To escape that re¬ proach he had much to do, for he was a man of great possessions, but he applied himself to the task with unwearying zeal and with a good deal more than zeal. Mr. Carnegie has never been a thoughtless giver. He has not spared himself the toil of re¬ search and inquiry, the pains of tak¬ ing thought how he might give in ways that would be most useful to his fellow-men. His innumerable minor benefactions, even the least of them, and the great foundation which bears his name, have been the sub¬ ject of much study, of planning and of faithful effort to determine in what manner his beneficent purposes, might best be carried out. Since his retirement from business that has been his occupation, his enjoyment, the source of his happiness, Mr. Carnegie is about the most hu¬ man millionaire the world has ever seen. Money in itself interests ? him but slightly in comparison with the worthy things that can be done with it. So it happens that his interests have been very broad, his sympathies easily enlisted in a multitude of good and noble objects he has been asked to promote and support. He has made friends without number because he is possessed of those qualities of kindness of heart and freshness , of mind, of philosophy and of philan¬ thropy that kindle esteem and win friendship. Today, tits eightieth birthday, Mr, Carnegie will receive many messages of good will, expressing the hope that still greater length -of years and con¬ tinued Happiness may attend him. It is a hope that will b.e cherished and expressed with full sincerity through¬ out the nation in the . innumerable communities which have reason to be grateful to him for acts of beneficence, for the ways he has chosen of doing good to his fellow-men. | UlsihkLglWiig dUUdlljr of the cold weather period. P we have arranged these tirm Coats that are up-to-the-moi made of heavyweight materia defy the most frigid weather, concessions: Women’s & Missc Juniors’ $ 10 Swagger Coats, s One model has deep fur collar wl high up to the chin or with revers; oj blue cheviot, tailored on the new fl belt with novelty pockets in one, anc on set-in sleeves. Other youthful styles in most di such as plain and striped Zibeline, Cori in the most becoming styles of the se 15 and 17 years. Girls’*7.95 Smart Coats, at ? 5.1 A handsome style of navy blue has Norfolk effect in back, with two with velvet collar and belt in becoi convertible collar, turn-back cuffs ar, with velvet overlaps. Other fine Coats for Girls, in an s ment of styles and fabrics, includin Cheviot, many fur trimmed, in sizes Our FURS are not only reno excellent^ QUALITY, latest styh PRICES, but for the fact that evei guaranteed as marked—tag with th of the fur is attached. Coats Scarfs Chokers Fur Trii j I I V \ Coats, at * 9.75 The model illustrated just one example —the high Chin Chin collar of fur, the panel back, the belted effect , with novelty pockets J and flaring lines—Style 1 features that are merely representative of our a wonderful collection of| coats for Winter. The materials: Cordu¬ roy, Pebble Cheviot, Tweeds, Fancy Mix¬ tures, Kerseys, Over¬ plaids, Zibeline, and such textile furs as “Metalam” and “Uralam.” Sizes for Misses, 14 to 20 years; for Women, 36 fo 44 inches. (Tv - y.) CX. UJJL! ^ 4'41 Ss~ BoJpupv ( "fort w Ia/ . x{ ^rvv^vai" % 3 Blr^vv! djUkt, LovJ&b D* 26 Fx^CaaX. C. Oi (klab**4, HI ;fv /^u-^mjv ^ $7X, (Too ,M$ AAAA-«Jl J^rS/Kj sj3$l*^‘<4~dM>A(!dl. __ sSi 0^-4! 0/-.i f F fuJjA^a. .-viiA-cXS^jr-K. ^(yK. Jk^.AA.vjlajdi RjJ£aJ'^s.S T^jcMa ( A W- / Kx^ 41 rr;V| 3 ( fWi- . jW-oO^j- H . ■n'«upx4;14' 4 L*x t \ j_ , 3 4; 3 LjIamLo ( ~D.^ ' 1 i4-; vr 4o "7 53- (X'k.iXLA C feature. Hig'lit to Rescind Charters. Q. 3—Your views regarding the safe- | guards which have been stated to be ; necessary to prevent such an institution as the foundation, from becoming a menace to the public. A.—I regard the right to amend or i rescind the respective chanters of the several foundations which inheres in ! the legislative bodies which granted them an entirely sufficient guarantee against serious abuse of the funds. (Furthermore, I have such confidence in democracy that I believe it can better be left to the people and tpeir rep re- i.sentatives to remedy evils when there is some tangible reason for believing they are impending rather than to re¬ strict the power for service in anticipa¬ tion of purely hypothetical dangers. Q. 4—The conference at Tarrytown, with regard to the affairs of the Colo¬ rado Fuel and Iron Company, at Which were present Mr. Welborn, Mr. King, ! yourself and others. A.—The meeting at Tarrytown therein referred to was purely social in char- j acter. Messrs. Welborn and King were spending the night with my son. He asked me to ‘meet these gentlemen at dinner. I never had had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Welborn before. No ; conference took place. Such mention as, was made of business matters was purely of an informal and unpremedi¬ tated nature, taking place as I sat at | dinner beside Mr. Welborn, Q. 5—Your opinion regarding the responsibility of investigators and di¬ rectors for the labor conditions (exist¬ ing in the corporations in which they are interested. | A.-—I think that the stockholders are | responsible for the choice of the best J men as directors. The directors are 1 ultimately responsible for the general conduct of the business, and in dis¬ charging that responsibility it is their duty to select the best men to actually administer it. These administrative of- I fleers must have discretion and power commensurate with their responsbility. A large stockholder ordinarily would have more influence with a board of. | directors than a smaller one, and con¬ sequently would • have a greater re¬ sponsibility for the selection of direc¬ tors who would See to it that the ad¬ ministrative officers maintained proper working conditions for their employees. "Did it ever occur to you.” queried Chairman Walsh, when Mr. Rockefeller had finished reading, "that your founda¬ tions might become a, menace to otir democratic Governmentf “1 can’t say I have had any fears of that.” "Do you think that there > is any . tendency on the part of educational in- I stitutions which you have benefited to ‘ modify their courses of instruction on that account?” "I have had no occasion for anxiety in that respect.” Power to Prevent Misuse. “What means are there to prevent such results?” “I think I have relied upon the people ! who are to watch constantly what use | they are making of this fund. The Legislature has the power to prevent any misuse of the fund. They cannot be ! more interested in Suing that than I am.” “Do you think it would be advisable to have a uniform Federal charter fof Such foundations?” I ! "At the present time, and speaking for the Rockefeller Foundation, I feel that the interests of the public are well protected, jUst as we are. What the future might develop would be for the future to control.” Think* Publicity Desirable. “Do you believe in publicity* tor these j foundations?” “I think it would be very well, indeed i desirable, that the public should know what they are doing and that regular reports be made.” “Do you think there should toe public inspection ?” “I have had no occasion to contem¬ plate anything of that bind up to the present, time.” “Have you found in your experience that institutions al-tef* their methods in order to secure gifts?” “I never knew or heard of it I can’t imagine people wanting anything like •that.” “Have you heard of educational in¬ stitutions giving up their denominational Charters in Order to secure foundation gifts?” “As to ours I have no idea as to that being true. As to others I do not know.” “Does the greatest power of a founda¬ tion arise from its ability to give or to withhold money?” Virtuous to Withhold. j "It is a great power to be able to I give. It may be equally virtuous to i ii ; .rr. :::a . withhold. A great responsibility rests upon the mqn in this, regard, the men who are to administer the fund.” “Do you conceive of anything wrong in putting info your Charter regulations to prevent meretricious results?” “1 think that at any time anything of that sort is made manifestly desirable to these trustees they would be glad to take such a progressive, if it is pro¬ gressive, step;” “Would this property go back to you if the charter act were repealed?” “I have been so hopeful I haven’t worried about that. I have a good deal of confidence In the American'people, in their good sense. I think you will find provisions in the charter for the dis¬ tribution of the funds.” _ CARNEGIE’S GREAT REGRET IS THE HOMESTEAD STRIKE In his prepared statement Mr. Car¬ negie reviewed at some length his rela¬ tions with his employees and summed •up his idea of those relations by saying that men were gradually coming to real¬ ize, that capital, labor and business abil¬ ity are “a three legged stool, each neces¬ sary for the other', neither first, second nor third in rank, all equal.” He touched upon the development of the steel 1 industry and then launched. ■ into a particular description of his | philanthropies, this last including a sum¬ mary of the fourth annual report of the United States Steel* and Carnegie Pension Fund. He said in part: I have read with deep interest the testimony given before you by many millionaires, Messrs. Schiff, Belmont, Guggenheim, Perkins, Gary, and nOt- : ably Miss Tar.bell, who though not a : millionaire certainly deserves to be | she seems to have a firm grasp upon the | problem and proves herself one who studies the question and rightly appre. dates the great progress made during her time. I agree with her statement, “Sane publicity is the cure for most evils in. American industrial life.” Last, but hot least, thetestimony on Friday of that unaccountable being, Henry Ford, who declares that he could make every convict in Sing Sing a competent, trustworthy laborer in the vineyard. I j am not disposed to question anything j that this prodigy asserts. Success to him! By all means let us give him a trial. His success here would be too more of a seeming miracle than his success with the Ford car. I never bought or sold shares on the exchange; aill my earnings were from manufacturing. If it were necessary for me to return to that calling I should not consider the problem of labor as at all difficult. On the contrary, I en¬ joyed Conferences with our men. We have one rule, come what may, we would never think of running our works with new men. Able, sober, well-behaved workmen such as ours were, are not to he picked up on the streets, and we wished no others. We were very particular in regard to drinking: First offence, men were excluded thirty days; second offence, sixty days; third of¬ fence, we parted company. Homestead Strike. We have only had one serious disaster with labor; but that was terrible In¬ deed. I was coaching through the Scot¬ tish Highlands on my holiday and did not hear of the lamentable riot at "Homestead until days after it occurred! I wired at once that I would take the first steamer home, but was requested not to come. My chief partner, Mr. Phipps, in a letter to the New York Herald, Jan, 30, 1904, explains it as follows: “Question—‘It was stated that Mr. Carnegie acted in a cowardly manner in not returning to America from Scotland and being present when th© strike was •in progress at Homestead.’ “Answer toy Mr. Phipps—-When Mr. Carnegie heard of the trouble at Home¬ stead he immediately wired that he would take the first ship for America, but his partners begged him not to ap¬ pear, as they were of the opinion that the welfare of the company required that he should not 'toe in this country at the time. They all knew his extreme disposition to always grant the demands of labor, however unreasonable. I have never known of anyone interested in the business to make any complaint about Mr. Carnegie’s absence at that time, but all partners rejoiced that they were permitted to manage the affair In their Own way.” Some of the men at the works cabled me: “Kind master, tell us what you. want us to do and we will do it for you.” It was too late. I supposed from Mr. Phipps’® cable despatch that all was settled and de¬ cided it was best to conform to my partners’ wishes. My partners made a most genefous offer to the workmen. The new Homestead Bolling Mills in¬ creased product 60 per cent, over the old. The rollers were offered 30 per I cent, advance in wages, one-half of the , total gain. I would not have done more. The error was in trying to start with men, against our rule. But here again, I understand the Governor of the State, with troops at Pittsburg, wished the law vindicated. . With this exception we never had a grave disaster. One or two partners out of our forty may, as Mr. Phipps states, sometimes consider me foolish “in always yielding to labor,” while I am satisfied that for every dollar, so spent we had indirectly ample and more than ample reward. Frankly I consider that folly- was one or my best virtues. ■ The workmen that we had, sober, well-behaving men as they were and are to-day, are the most profitably, of all, and many of them rose to permanent, high salaries, and not a few to part¬ nership, of which we had not less than forty odd, who are organized to-day a®, the Carnegie veterans and dine once a year in our home. They come from all parts of . the land. You might like to hear the following incident connected With the Homestead strike: The Governor of Pennsylvania, I un¬ derstand, wished certain. of our workers arrested for riot and bound over for trial. Consequently some of these dis¬ appeared, among them the Burgess of Homestead. Some time afterward my friend Prof. Van Dyke of Rutgers Col¬ lege was ordered to California for hi® health. Upon hi® return he told me that he had met the ex-Burgess working as a laborer in a Mexican mine at iSonora. I asked him to offer McLuckie any help he might need, and upon his return to the West he did so. Meanwhile Mc¬ Luckie had got a position with the So¬ nora Railway, driving wells,' and was succeeding admirably. The professor said: “You don’t know whose money I was told to-help you with.” He said that he had no idea,. “Well, It .was- Mr. Cftrnegie’s.” Then came the slow, earn¬ est response : “That was damned white ! of Andy.” Thinks It Good Epitaph. When I heard this I suggested to my friend Van Dyke that it wouldn’t be a bad epitaph to grace one’s tombstone. If it ever did I hoped there would be no long blank between the fis. Each letter should be put down to give McLuckie’s proper, expression. When I talked to the Homestead rol¬ lers upon my return I told them ray 1 partners had offered liberal terms and I could not have -offered more. One roller said;: “Oh, Mr. Carnegie, it wasn’t a question of dollars! The boys would hdve let you kick tnemt, and they wouldn’t let another man stroke their hair.” May I. trouble you with one example of the working of our system? Upon of my visits to Pittsburg I met the men, Who wished a conference. They asked that payments be made every two weeks instead of monthly, as the Penn¬ sylvania Railroad employees were then paid. Ono named. Johnny Edwards, a clever workman and fine fellow, rose to state their case.. He said that if they were paid semi-monthly it would be equal to a rise in -their wages. He and ibis wife visited Pittsburg the last Sat¬ urday in each month .and bought a full month’s food supply, thereby saving one- third on ehop prices near the works. ‘Why don’t other -workmen do the same?” I asked. He replied: “Few of your men can afford to buy a month in advance. My wife and I can.” Here was an opening; I decided it would be Semi-monthly payments there¬ after, and so it was. Then Edwards said: “There is another unfair charge; the coal dealers here charge almost double for coa;l in small quantities.” Coal at Cost. “Indeed,” I said, “hereafter our work¬ men get their coal at the exact whole-- sale coast to us, not one cent of profit.” “And,” said Edwards, “we don’t want to be -too troublesome, but everything we buy here is far dearer -than in Pitts¬ burg.” “Well,” I replied, “why not start a shop of your own? Rent one on Main street, and we shall pay the rent, or¬ ganize and run it, and charge our work¬ men just- enough to pay your way,” and i this was done, but sorry to say, tih-6 shop did not prove, successful, as retailers re- ; duced prices. A victory! You have here an illustration of the } disadvantages workmen are often com- ;; pelled! to bear. There was another fea- 1 ture. We offered our men 6 per cent, upon all the savings left with us, pay¬ able on demand. And here let me con- - gra culate JUdge Gary and his board; upon the greatest step yet, taken. When Workmen were made, shareholders they wer.e sold shares in the company upon a very liberal basis and guarded against loss. I consider this the greatest of all steps forward yet taken for mUking workmen and capitalists fellow work¬ men Indeed,. pulling and owning the: same boat This cannot fail to prove 1 highly profitable'to both; far beyond the ■■ pecuniary advantage I esteem the fellow i ’ partnership Which makes Judge Gary, ! Mr. Farrell, Mr. .Dinkey and other high j I officials fellow partners with their work- Sees Steady progress. All this reveals steady trrogrei up¬ ward and onward to the benefit of both labor and capital, which will some day rank. as one, notwithstanding the hesi¬ tation to cooperate shown by some labor champions who are still extremists and do capitalists injustice, but this must s-teadily fade. away. As I told the great j audience at Homestead upon my firsts visit after the strike, we shall one day j all recognize capital, labor and business ability as a three legged stool, each j necessary for the other, neither first, second nor third in rank, all -equal. Lest my summing up may seem one¬ sided, l will give a, proof of my effort to hold the -scales equal between capital and labor. Only once have I had ex¬ perience of a determined effort to com- mit wrong uprin the part of labor. It is | true that -the men at the Edgar Thomp- - son blast furnaces sent in a written de¬ mand for an immediate advance ofI wages which, if refused, would end in the furnaces being left unfilled. Upon receiving a telegram to this effect I took a, night train from New York and got off at the works next morning. I found a long train of our empty box cars- ready to house new workmeh if necessary. I directed these to be pulled lout of the yard and' sent away, stating that three would be no stirke, and nOti- [ tying the leader® of each of the three - different divisions of labor to appear as soon as practicable that I might consult with them. The leader of each depart- i ment with one or two aides arrived. We assembled in the committee room. L addressed the chairman of the commit¬ tee of; the converting works first: “Mr. chairman, have -we an agreement i with you?” Stood l»y Agreement, The answer came, “You have, arid you haven’t, enough money to make us I break it!” “There speak® the true American workman,” I exclaimed. Addressing the rolling mill chairman, I asked the same question and the reply was to the same effect. I then ad¬ dressed Mr. Kelly, the chairman of the furnace committee, who had presented this demand. "Mr. Kelly, have you an agreement j with our company?”- He said that an agreement Was pre- J sen-ted and he had Signed it and supposed it was all right. Just then the irrepres¬ sible Ca-pt. Jones- broke in, “Mr. Kelly, you know I read all of it to you!” • “Silerice, captain, Mr. Kelly Can speak for himself. I receive’ many communi¬ cations and documents which I haven’t time to read. If they were of a formal nature I have sometimes signed docu¬ ments without giving them careful- at¬ tention, but Mr. Kelly, I have always stood prepared to take the consequences, ana i never -broke contracts. Now, Mr. Kelly, you -have signed that treaty, and you can break it, but -the grass will grow oyer these works before we will have such men -in our employ. It will toe heralded through the world as a dis¬ grace to labor. You wished your an¬ swer' at 4 o’clock. It is now a little after 3, but you have your answer. Go!” > little later some one who was coming in as they were passing out and who had got in the crowd said that a fine looking fellow had pushed across the hall and said to Kelly: “There'is to be no damned monkeying around these works.” Some of the men being curious to know what would be the re¬ sult had gathered at the -blast furnaces. To their Inquiries Kelly replied, “Get to work, you -spalpeens ; the little boss just hif from the shoulder.” There was no strike and that is the best service I ever rendered to American labor, so that although I was inclined to yield to labor, I drew the line at con¬ tract -breaking. This was the first time L had found labor ready to break a con¬ tract, and it was-the last. "VF® once proposed making a change in the distribution—not in the amount— of wages among the different depart¬ ments of the -steel rail mills as new ma¬ chinery was introduced. The confer¬ ences were held in Pittsburg. After several days’ consideration, I (had! to leave for New York by the night train. The men in the mills asked by' telegraph if I could meet them in our office in the afternoon. I answered “Ye-s.” They came to the city and were seated in the boafd room. Mr. Edwards, who was again spokesman, began : “Mr. Carnegie^ we agree that there is a sufficient sum proposed for our total work, but. we think it is not wisely di¬ vided. Now, Mr. Carnegie, you take my job” . Asked to give the names of the mem¬ bers of bis personal staff, Mr. Rocke¬ feller said he could not recall offhand the names of all of -the men upon whom he relied, but that he would submit a list and also a list of the younger men in his employ who are winning their way to positions of confidence and trust. He also described bis policy of encour¬ aging-men of ability. * Right of All Men to Organize.- “What do you think of - the worker’s light to form Uftiohs?” “I would accord to all men the right •to organize themselves, the workingmen as well as the business men, with proper safeguards for the interests of the pub¬ lic,” - “Do you believe it .possible to raise ! wages to such' Uri extent as to make ■charity unnecessary?” “I believe the best way to ’help the laboring man is to give him steady work and fair wages. That is better than charity. I believe any good laboring II man would prefer it.” i “Mr. Rockefeller, many witnesses' toe- 1 1 fore us have -testified that the- money 5 you are now devoting ' to philanthropic 1 purposes might better have been dis¬ tributed in wages to the men in your employ.” “I should toe very happy to see the laboring meti become the owners of these same prosperous businesses. I would be only too happy to surrender my holdings so that labor could come into the ownership of the -entg^rlsfef, thus giving them the profits to wliicir you refer. I should much rather they Would have them and that I could feel they were my partners.” “And what plan would you suggest ! to bring that about?” “It is very simple. The man who has the money to buy one share becomes| a shareholder and so a part owner of ; the enterprise. The more shares he has the greater will be his partnership.” “Did you ever read the grievances of I the men employed by the Colorado Fuel j and Iron Company?” , - ’ “Oh, no; they were-beyond me.” ! “Were you ever advised of the claims of the workingmen, in your industries?” I “(No, sir. They would not come to me, tout to the proper officials.” ! Mr. Rockefeller ended his testimony by saying- that the' employer, must stand j by those men who are loyal to him and that he must not disregard their rights and claims upon him. Mr. f “Order, Mr. Edwards, order, Carnegie takes no man’s job.” Suppression was impossible, out came 1 roars of’ laughter, and foot stamping •and the victory was won. We shook ; hands, and I was off on the night train, j Money is not the foremost or sole object 1 of the better class of workmen. That } but the millionaire will be but a trustee ; for the poor, intrusted for a season with | a great pari of the increased wealth, of ! the community, but administering it for i the community far better than it could j or would have done for itself. The best j minds will thus have reached a stage in | the. development of the race in which it play upon words with Billy Edwards is clearly seen that there is no mode of did the business. - i| disposing of surplus wealth creditable to We began manufacturing with a capi * il thoughtful and earnest men into whose tal of $7,500 ; my shape I borrowed from a bank in Pittsburg. When superin¬ tendent of the Pennsylvania Railroad I had seen a wooden bridge burn, block¬ ing traffic for eight days, and I be¬ lieved in iron bridges; the day of steel had not yet arrived. From this small •beginning grew the Edgar Thomson steel works, Homestead works, Du- hands it flows, save by using' it year by year for the general good. This day already dawns. Men may die without incurring the pity of their fellows, still sharers in great ’business enterprises | from which their capital cannot be, or has not been, withdrawn, and which is left chiefly at death for public uses, yet •the day is not far distant when .the quesne works, the blast furnaces and lo- ! -man who dies leaving behind him comotive works at Allegheny, our gas ’ millions of available wealth, which were wells in West Virginia and the great ] free for him to administer during life, or e fields we bought from Mr. Rocke- j will pass away “unwept, unhoraored and feller. 11 unsung,’ no matter to what use he- leaves It is fourteen years since I retired from business in pursuance of my de¬ cision to cease accumulation and begin distribution of surplus wealth, in which I am still engaged. In 1888 I published an article in the North American Re¬ view, which was afterward christened ‘Gospel of Wealth,” by Mr. Gladstone. He commented upon it in' The Nine¬ teenth Century. It attracted attention j and many answers were sent to this magazine. I quote you the following extract from the ‘‘Gospel of Wealth” : ! “The Prohleih of. Rioli and Poor.” ! “Thus is the ploblem of rich and, poor j to be solved. The laws of accumulation, j Will be left free; the laws of distribu- i tion free. Individualism will continue, the’ dross which he cannot take with | him. Of such as these the public ver- I diet will then be, ‘The man who' dies | thus rich dies disgraced.’ “Such, in my opinion, is the true gos¬ pel _ concerning wealth, obedience to which is destined some day to solve the problem of the rich and the poor, and to bring ‘peace oh earth, $mong men good will.’ ” “In accordance with this doctrine, fhy first act upon retiring from business was to give $5,000,000 to the workmen of the Carnegie Steel Company as a parting gift, $4,000,000 for pensions to the men and $1,000,000 to maintain the libraries and halls I had built for them. I was greatly pleased when later the United States Steel Corporation saw fit f t0 duplicate thy gift, adding $4,000 000 more to the fund for pensions. I have just read the following report of this joint, fund with great satisfaction. Amount Paid in Pensions. “The fourth annual report of fhe United States Steel and Carnegie Pen Sion Fund made public to-day shows that since .Tan. 1, 1911, when the fund was established, retired employees of •' the Steel Corporation have received in •pensions $1,575,021.33. For the year 1914 : the total disbursement from the pension' fund amounted to $511,967.90.which was ° Ve , r the previ °us year of $89,- 1.2.76, and a gain of $230,510.53 over fund’s ’existence. The Pittsburg district leads in the ! amount of money paid out to the aged ! and infirm former employees of the i various subsidiary gitnpanies. To re-' tired mill operatives in the -Pittsburg ,and valley districts the sum. of' >6229 ,656.31 was paid during the year/ and I to this may be added the sum paid ' to the coke workers 3n the fields adia- whPch amounted to ' $59,995.66, making the total for the' 66*1 i'9 an< ^ mineS in the dis trict $283,- “Pensioners in Cleveland and its Vicinity received approximately $50,000 . di9trict the amount dis- SXfi T° rm Z r mU1 wol ' kers was $30,157.86. In New England retired employees of the Worcester, Mass plants received $39,S55.56. ” are now 2,521 beneficiaries of tlie fund. During the year 612 pen¬ sioners were added and 183 died The wm-e a ?2o^ 1,Si ° m the cases ’ add od were. $20.40 a month, the average age the pensions being 63.33 years and the average tern] of the service, 2S 73 years Shakespeare has tersely put the soln ion of wealth and poverty before us In these words-; “So distribution should undo excess and each: man have enouuh ” t™? V m ’ ta onrlav, but its fruition may mean centuries of progress, slow but sure, for aU S>ws The complete statement up to the close of last year Shows that the total ot our foundations and gifts amount to $324,657,399. The work stfil goes bravely on, thanks to. the wise manage¬ ment of the able and willing trustees and aiso of the employees, who often assure me that it is labor in which S ; il delight. I am indeed a most £bhtiinn+« *£” k myselt ” ” th "« <£• Gentlemen, we have six fnm, r i„? UC1 ' ouStionT® w® , C ' alled upon to answer questions. If at any time you' wish timS" 0 r he fl J ea f S l f thfe othw founds^ or ask further questions • fh»x nothml 3 ^ 081 happy to respond. W4 have nothing to conceal! 0 Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh of Minnesota and Morris HiUquit were wUl%^ ltne ^ yest6vcU y- hearing Tit!? 0 oi } this morning, with Seth Dow a,s the principal Witness. The commG- Y!!J TV llisl1 its investigation in New Yoi-k to-day and in about two Weeks will resume Its hearings in Chicago. on the Stand Yesterday ,A' X » ROCKEFELLER SR. AND CARNEGIE ON THEIR 1ST GIFTS Industrial Commission Finds Ironmaster Spent $324,657,- 399, Oil Man $250,000,000. k‘ BOTH AIM TO UPLIFT MAN Carnegie Raises Roars of Laugh¬ ter as He Tells Triumphs of “ The Little Boss.” PROUD TO BE CALLED ‘ANDY’ Says He Was Indulgent with Workmen and Still Thinks Dying Rich a Disgrace. ROCKEFELLER IN IGNORANCE Never Told of Workmen’s Claims, He Testfies, and Has Never At¬ tended a Foundation Meeting. much in his life before, and his audience j believed him. He did not meet Mr. ' Rockefeller, although the two passed 1 close to each other. When he took the [ stand the ironmaster was asked .by Chairman Walsh what his business, was. !, “ To do as much good in the world as I can,” the witness replied, with a smile. " I have retired from business.” Safeguards Abomt Foundation. Mr. Rockefeller was. questioned along! the lines of liis Foundation. He said the sole motive underlying all his phi¬ lanthropies was a - desire to devote a part of his fortune to the service of his fellowmen. He' regarded the restric¬ tions placed about the Foundation by the Legislature as an entirely sufficient guarantee against serious abuse of the funds. ' 1 ■ The witness thought the'stockholders: of any corporation were responsible for-j the choice of the best men as Directors, and that the Directors ultimately we/e responsible for the general conduct of i the busiriess. He stated his belief in the ] right of all men, workers and those en¬ gaged in business, to organize “ with the proper limitations in respect to safe- 1 guarding t-hfe interests of the public.” J The best way to help the laboring man was to give, him steady work and fair wages, Mr. Rockefeller said. That was better than all charity. He said he would be very happy to see all laborers share in'some substantial way in the profits of their employers,; and thought that, like all stockholders, they should be represented in the Beard of Directors. There were no privileges or -right^ that he wouldn’t gladly give to the humblest [ man. Employers, he said, should stand by their loyal men and eouldn t afford to be treacherous to them. . When asked if he believed, m the event of the Legislature repealing the Foundation’s charter, the property would revert to him, Mr. Rockefeller said he had not allowed himself to worry about that and added:. “ i have a great deal of confidence in this Board of Directors and in the American people, in their goodness, in¬ tegrity, and common sense,, and that is .pur, ttMjlHfjljllll m The witness related with great gusto a n instance that grew out of the strike. One of the men who disappeared, he said, was Mr. McLuckie, the Burgess of Homestead, and later Prof. Van Dyke of Rutgers College met McLuckie work¬ ing as a laborer in a Mexican mine at Sonora. He told Prof. Van Dyke to offer McLuckie any help he might need, and upon his return West the professor did so. Meanwhile McLuckie had got a position with the Sonora Railway driving wells, and Prof. Van Dyke said to him: ‘‘You don’t know whose money I wq.s told to help, you with. It was Mr. Carnegie’s.” “ Then,” related Mr. Carnegie with a smile that wreathed all. his face and set the audience rocking with laughter, “ then came the slow, earnest response, ‘ That was damned white of Andy.’ “ When I heard this,” the witness con¬ tinued, “I suggested to my friend Van Dyke that it wouldn’t be a bad epitaph to grace one’s tombstone. If It ever did I hoped there would be no long blank between the ‘ d's.’ Each letter should be put down to give McLuckie’s proper expression.” Mr. Carnegie’s appreciation of his joke was keen. Every one in the room and every- member of the commission was shaking with laughter. The louder they laughed, the more Mr. Carnegie beamed. Chairman Walsh made nb at¬ tempt to preserve order. Mr. Carnegie had captured his audience, and he was allowed to carry it along - . “ When T talked to the Homestead rollers,” the witness said, “ T told them my pai;tners had offered liberal terms, and I could not have offered more. One roller said: ‘ Oh, Mr. Carnegie, it wasn’t a question of dollars. The boys would have let you kick them, hut they wouldn’t let another man stroke their ^Mr. Carnegie explained how his firm iVAnritv ”- ' 1 offered workmen 6 per cent, on all the The witness said his business policy savings left with it. payable on de- roc, d-tWva to select for the lower po- mand. Thus, he said, made shareholders' and sold shares through the Scottish Highlands. He ! on the institutions they endowed, ana wanted to come home at once, but his when the Chairman began a question by partner, Mr; Phipps, persuaded him not! saying, “Dr. Charles W. Eliot says—” to, Some of the men at the Works, he the witness broke in: “Well, he ought said, cabled him: “ Kind master, tell us ‘ to know; he enjoys one of my pen- what you want us tq do, and we will do / sions.” it for you,” but it was too late. , Mr. Carnegie said he would be de- To the men was offered 30 per cent. lighted if the State or Federal Govern- increase in wages, one-half of the total ment supervised his foundation, and he gain, according to Mr. Carnegie, and he welcomed full publicity, could not have done more. The error, “ I believe in advertising, in full pub« he said, was in starting with new men! li.city;” he explained. “ It has been said Some of his partners considered him that the reason Lazarus was a beggar foolish in always yielding to labor, andj* was because he didn’t advertise.” he added with another all-embracing 1 “What responsibility have the Di¬ smile: i p rectors of industrial corporations for the “ Frankly, I considered that folly was ' labor conditions in their plants"” one of my best virtues.” Tf +ll “ Within a space of two hours yester¬ day afternoon two of the wealthiest men in the world, Andrew. Carnegie and. John D. Rockefeller, Sr., testified be¬ fore the United States Commission on Industrial Relations in the / Assembly Room of the Metropolitan Building. They told how, through benefactions to mankind, they were trying to get rid of part of the immense fortunes they had amassed. Mr. Carnegie proudly and enthusias¬ tically related; how his foundations and gifts already amounted to $324,657,399, and Mr. Rockefeller, with more restraint but equal satisfaction, discussed bis gifts, estimated at $250,000,000. The testimony of both men was grip¬ ping .in its appeal and the audience of* about 500 men and women, made up principally of Socialists, students of so- j ciology, and labor sympathizers, en- j joyed the drama hugely. "* ”■’«* s j Rockefeller Not Expected. Mr. Rockefeller’s appearance was in the nature of an anti-climax, for Mr. Carnegie had j been counted as the im¬ portant witness of the day and no one- in the room knew that the Standard Gil man was to appear up to the time he actually took the stand. Chairman Walsh had expected to call Mr. Rocke¬ feller today, but-the latter had asked as a favor that he be allowed to appear while'he was in the city. Mr. Carnegie was the most remarkable witness that had yet appeared before the commission. Captivating the commis¬ sion, as well as the audience, by the sheer force of his infectious geniality, he vims allowed to tell his story in his own way, and had the crowd in roars of laughter, without ; any effort being made to restrain him. With an appeal¬ ing sweep of his arms, as if he wanted to include the whole world in his phi¬ losophy of benevolence, the * Laird of Ski bo beamed as he told, how his asso¬ ciates fondly called him “ Andy,” and how he wanted the poor and distressed to share m his happiness. A . His Theory of Life. Sitting in the same chair a few min¬ utes later, Mr. Rockefeller, in studied phrase, with no display of emotion, ex¬ plained that his theory of life, likewise,' was to accomplish all the good, possible Both men read carefully , prepared statements as apsweps to questions the. commission had submitted to them, arid then they were allowed to amplify their views through questions put to them by Mr. Walsh. On leaving the stand Mr. Carnegie said he had never enjoyed himself so was always to select for the lpwer po¬ sitions in his office clean, young men with an ambition to improve, and who gradually moved up to higher positions. Asked if he had gone into the problems and grievances of the workmen in the Colorado Fuel ' and Iron Company he replied that he had no recollection of the' conditions there, that he was a new investor in the enterprise and had saved it from bankruptcy by putting addi¬ tional capital into-it. the company upon a very liberal basis and guarded against loss. “I considered this,’ the philanthropist beamed, “ the greatest of all steps for¬ ward yet taken for making workmen and capitalists fellow, workmen indeed, pulling and owning the same boat. The “Little Boss” at Work. With characteristic enthusiasm that Mr. Carnegie said he considered the, the audience howling With laughter again Mr. Carnegie told another Btory closer together. He likened labor, cap¬ ital, and business to a three-legged stool, each necessary', for the other and all equal. His solution of the problem of the rich and poor, as lie put it, was for the laws of accumulation, as well as the laws of distribution, to be kept “ The day is not far distant,” said Mr. Carnegie, “ when the man who dies leaving behind him millions of available wealth, which were free for him to administer during life, will pass away unwept, unhonored, and unsung, no n>attcr to what use he leaves the dross which he cannot take With him. Of such as these the public verdict will then be: ‘The man who dies thus vien dies disgraced.’ J " Mr. Carnegie took the stand at 2 o’clock, immediately after the noon re¬ cess. His coming had been announced, j and the largest crowd that had ap- 1 peared at any of the commission’s hear- j ings was on hand. He was trimly dressed in black, with a small black bow tie, and wore old-fashioned spectacles with silver rims. He appeared to be. in good health, although somewhat thin¬ ner than a year ago. tracts. Meeting a labor committee, on the eve of a threatened strike, he asked if he had an sgreeme-’- +v ’“™ “The answer came, • - : „„ you haven’t enough money to male us break it,’ ” said Mr. Carnegie, with em- P *A S member of the committee named ' Kelly, announced that a contract did ' not mean anything to him, and Mr. Carnegie retorted: „ . “ Yon wished your answer at 4 o'clock. It is now a little- after 3, but you have your answer: Go. wow, listen to this,” went on Mr. Carnegie although he scarcely trim because of the laughter, Lt^tLir tri to go, and he went. He went back to the blast furnace, where so ®f.if®? gathered, anxmus ^RnoWyWhat you Spalpeens, hit from the er uiaij Meantime Mr. Walsh askec and had more than 3,000 students, ine fees were only $25 a yeaL.^JXL 1 !® ed away. Meantime Mr, Walsh asked that perfect order be maintained. . “ Of course we will forget the past, he said. ” Mr. Carnegie unsettled the commission and the audience both, hut we are going to try and get through with a number of important witnesses. How Mr. Rockefeller Looked. No one in the audience was aware who the next witness was to he, and when the Chairman > announced Mr. Rockefeller there was a buzz of sur¬ prise. The capitalist appeared very feeble as he was helped to the witness chair by a sergeant-at-arms. His at¬ titude on the stand was in violent con¬ trast to that of the preceding witness. There was no attempt at wit, and he, directed all his attention to the mem¬ bers of the commission, paying no heed to the audience. hut without disaster j r&To | LpteS |f ''dayt a afte? e while n coa!chteg 3 was ruddy and his eyes were keen. He institution s charged from $250 to JBOO. Mr. Carnegie told of the establishment of the Technology Schools which teach young men advanced modes of woik- msnshin and of the establishment of a fund to pension the widows of friends. He said he was surprised to learn the ences witu our men. 1 we nau uuc i um ■> other day that he. had no come what may, we would never think | pensioners upon his li^t, receiving $-14, of runniner our works with ne*v^ men. li|'9o4 a, . , , . Able sober well-behaved workmen such I After finishing reading ‘ his. ftatemen>| as oArs were are not to he picked upon Mr. Carnegie took otr his 'Pectacles eat the’streets and we wished no others. We down, and, folding his arms, told Chair were Ye e ry S ’pl?tIehAa7 in regard to drink- man Walsh to fire i^ay with < 4 uestionf ing. For the first offense, men were If tbe awhenee was hilanous More excluded for thirty days; on the second was uproarious now. With every burst offense lixtv davs and for the third of laughter the philanthropist enjoyed Offense we nartecf company.’’ - himself more than ever. Once he leaned ° f Bv the time he had reached this far, over toward the reporters, and, shak- Mr Carnepte’h^affahilitV^hehame' lyre- ing with suppressed merriment, said, ri^ihte 1 He 'smfled at evefy one, hhd “ Loud laughter, loud laughtcr.” tviiw one sat back td enjoy what was 1 Responding to questions, Mr. Carnegie eve \ y «e. 0ne W ! a «aifl ht had only one serious , said he believed workingmen had the was dressed in a suit of quiet gray and :| wore no jewelry except an emerald scarfpin. Only' once or twice did Mr. Rocke- 1 feller venture a smile, and then it merely flitted over his face. His only gesture was a half wave with his left | hand as he tried to emphasize some ! Special point. Again, unlike Mr. Car¬ negie, whose words fairly tumbled over one another, as if in haste to get out. Mr. Rockefeller pronounced every word slowly, pausing sometimes to choose carefully the word that conveyed his meaning best, and his voice,, .without enthusiasm and steady as, the lines in his face, kept to' a monotone. The witness had scarcely started to testify when a commotion at the rear of the hall interrupted the proceedings. It was Mr. Carnegie bobbing about amid a shoal of photographers. Chairman Walsh asked the picture takers to. take their victim out of the room and soon quiet was restored. A faint smile stole over Mr. Rockefeller’s features as he sensed the cause of the trotlble. Among those who sat in the audience was Mrs. John D v Rockefeller, Jr., but her hus¬ band was not present. “You are a retired business man? ” asked Mr. Walsh, after the witness gave bis legal residence as 4 West Sixty- fourth Street. “ I am,” replied the witness. “ I have been twenty or twenty-five years out of active business life.” “ You have .a home at Tarrytown, N. Y.? ” “ Well, no. It is at Pocantico Hills, back of Tarrytown.” “Are you the donor of the Rockefeller Foundation? ” “ I am,” replied the witness ,and that endbd the preliminaries. tlrat is, to see what use they are making of it; and the legislators, they will he much in¬ terested. They cannot be more interested than I am. Q.~Would you consider that serious wrong¬ doing on the' part of any such Foundation would endanger the existence anil hamper the proper activities of all? A.—I think that if there , were on the part of any one of those Foundations something found- to be wrong that that would be corrected. I should hope it would not result in harmful inferences to the other Foundations. Q.—In order that the great Foundations nouln nA Knnip>r.t tn ™ should be subject to the same regulation and afforded the same protection, would you not deem it advisable that all Foundations whose activities extend to. more than one State should be chartered by : the .’ Federal Govern- I P en | T , ^nder certain uniform requirements? -’•“Well, at the present, speaking of the Rockefeller Foundation, I would feel that the interests of the public are well protected, just as we are. What the future might develop Would have tb be for the future. Q.-Do you believe that full publicity should be given to all the activities of these institu¬ tions? A.—I think it would be very well indeed—desirable—that the public should know, and that the reports should be made. System of Inspection. Mr. Rockefeller said he had not had occasion to contemplate any definite system of public inspection. Q.—Have you considered the possibility' Mr. Rockefeller, of such Foundations exercising Mr. Rockefeller’s Statement. j The following is the statement in the form of questions and answers that Mr. Rockefeller read to the commission be- i fore being questioned more, minutely: I “ Question 1.—The motive and princi- | pies which underlie the various founda- I tions which you have established ? I “ Answer.—The sole motive underlying j the various foundations which I have established has been the desire to devote a portion of my fortune to the service of my fellow-men. The principles have been fully set forth in the two chapters from my book, ‘ Random Reminiscences,’ Which has already been made a part of ! the record of your commission. “ Question 2.—Your purposes and plans with respect to the expenditure of the special $2,000,000 annual fund which is reserved for your personal use by the Rockefeller Foundation? ; “ Answer.—-The Rockefeller Founda¬ tion was a development into impersonal i form of my own personal plans of giv¬ ing, followed for many years. While I desired to have the Directors of the j Foundation free to use the funds as they might see fit, in making my last gift I reserved the right to designate, during, I my lifetime, the specific objects to which $2,000,000 of the income should be given annually, my purpose being in this way to provide for the various philanthropies more or less personal to myself and re¬ lated to the- places of my residence, to which I have been a contributor in the past. Under the terms of the clause of my letter of gift reserving this right, it is stipulated that the objects must be within the corporate purposes of the ! Foundation, and my designations are; subject to review by the board as to that feature. . i “ Question 3.—Your views regarding safeguards which have been stated to be necessary to prevent suph institu¬ tions as the Foundation from becoming a menace .to the public? Right to Anient! Charter. j “ Answer.—I regard the right to amend ; or rescind the respective charters of! ! the several foundations.. which . .inhere | in the legislative bodies which granted < them as an entirely sufficient guaran¬ tee against serious abuse of the funds. '; Furthermore, I have such confidence- in democracy that I believe it can! better be left to the people and their representatives to remedy the evil when there is some tangible reason for be¬ lieving they are impending, rather than to restrict the- power for service in Anticipation of purely hypothetical I dangers. j “ Question 4.—The conference at Tarry- ;town with regard to the affairs of the (Colorado Fuel " & Iron Company, at! which were present Mr. Welborn. Mr. King, yourself and others? ! “ Answer.—The meeting at Tarrytown [therein referred to was purely social in [character. Messrs. Welborn and King Were spending the night with my son. [He asked me to meet these gentlemen jat dinner. I never had had the pleas¬ ure of meeting Mr. Welborn before. jNo conference took place. Such men¬ tion as was made of business matters i was of a purely informal and unpre- j meditated nature, taking place as I sat at dinner beside Mr. Welborn. - “ Question 5.—Your opinions regarding ithe responsibility of investors and Di- jrectors for the labor conditions exist¬ ing in the corporations in which they are interested? | “ Answep.—I think that the stock¬ holders are responsible for the choice of the best men as Directors. The Di¬ rectors are ultimately responsible for [the general conduct Of the business, and in discharging that responsibility it is ,their duty to select the best men to actually administer it. These ad¬ ministrative officers must have discre- jtion and power commensurate with their responsibility, A large stockholder would ordinarily have more influence with a Board of Directors than a smaller one, and consequently would have a greater responsibility for the selection of Directors who would- see to it that th’e administrative officers maintained proper working conditions for their employes;” Questioned < the Stand. The following is a transcript of the testimony given by Mr.' Rockefeller when .questioned.by Chairman Walsh; : Q—When .you established your various Foundations, Mr. Rockefeller, did it occur to you that -they might under any conditions become a menace to the public, either through mismanagement or by exercising a gre&t in¬ fluence upon the public mind in any direc¬ tion?' A.—No, I cannot say that I had any- fears on that question. . Q.—And from your experience, so far as you have advanced, .have you found any such ' tendency? A.—I have had no occasion for i any ^anxiety in that respedt. / , . , Q.—What precautions or safeguards did you ; consider as a ; means of preventing such an j outcome, say, jh the future? A.—Well, J. i think that I have relied upon the people -wh? a.re cohstantiy to watch and to know With the fund undue influence upon education? A.—I have no fear whatever in that regard. There has been nothing in my observation that has led me to. have any anxieties so far. Q.—In your experience, Mr. Rockefeller, going back of .the , establishment of the Foun¬ dations, from your entire experience in giv¬ ing, especially to educational—well, broadly speaking, educational, institutions - have you fpund that any persons or institutions are likely to alter or profess to alter their avowed principles or previous method of procedure even, in order to Secure your, gifts? A.—I have never known of anything of that kind; never heard of anything of that kind, and can- ' not imagine of our people desiring anything of that kind. Q.—Is it true that colleges have givett UP denominational charters and removed the cle- nominational connections In order to secure grants from any of these Foundations? I am asking you now for your general experience. A. Wes. Q.—Either in yours or observance of oth¬ ers? A.—As to ours* I have no idea that i that has been true; as to others, I do not : know. I Q.—Mr. Carnegie ‘mentioned the fact that ; some years ago, if I quote correctly, ! owing to a desire to give all persons an op¬ portunity of education In certain sections, [colleges that had been known as denomina¬ tional—I believe he mentioned perhaps a l Methodist Episcopal colleger-had given up their denominational character and gone upon a non-sectarian basis to secure funds. Was your attention ever called to any such case? A.—I do not recall that it was. I may have ; noticed at the time newspaper records, but ; I do not recall. Q.—-I am not asking for your opinion, un¬ less you recall the case. A.—No, I do not recall It. Q,—Does not the greatest power which these' Foundations could exercise arise out of I their ability to give or withhold funds— money? A.—It Is a great power to give. It i may be equally virtuous and commendable j to withhold. A great responsibility rests [ upofi the men, in that regard—the then ad- I ministering, the Boards of Trustees. Q,—Going back for a moment to your ex- [ pressed belief in the continued integrity of trustees, of course there have been many j cases of mismanagement of mutual funds j such as was the case in the insurance com¬ panies? A.—Yes. Q.—Of men that, had stood very, high? A.— Dost Their Reputations. Mr. Rockefeller answered affirmative¬ ly also when Mr. Walsh asked about “ men who stood very high before the [public and lost their reputations, and in [many cases their social life.” ! Q.—Now, considering the experience of the [past, do you conceive that there would be [anything wrong about putting regulations in the Constitution, or these charters, that might [prevent any f,uch' occurrences, within those bodies? A.—I think that at any time that anything of that sort is made manifestly de¬ sirable by these Directors—these Trustees— they would be the ones that would be glad to take any such progressive step, if Indeed it were progressive. Q.—That is, that it would have to come— or, more properly, come from the inside of the organization? Did I understand that cor¬ rectly? A.—Yes, at the present time, unless ; M. Amour 'll-’ principal ones are Starr J. Murphy, my personal counsel, and my son has charge—primarily of my affairs- Q.—I wish you would submit that list. A.— I shall ha-ire a list prepared, and shall I, in that list, include, as I may well do so, also the staff of younger men who are coming on and by and by' will take, the places of these men in the more prominent positions ? Mr. Walsh said he wished Mr. Rocke¬ feller would do so, and the witness con¬ tinued: “There are quite a number ,of the younger men, faithful and loyal and re¬ liable, and I think that they would nat¬ urally corne along and bear,an honor¬ able place in regard to this question you speak of.” “ I wish you would do that,” was the response. It would be interesting and form an important part of the history.” “I will ask to have that prepared,” said Mr. Rockefeller, “ and, as I say, I will have included the men in my office, and perhaps elsewhere, who ,have more of less of thosse Responsibilities.” Q.—And In doing that, Mr. Rockefeller, .will you .indicate as briefly and concisely as ; may be the general functions performed by these gentlemen, at the present time „ and those which you will expect ,to be performed by the younger ones' who are coming on? A.—I think I could give that out of hand. Q,—Very good, I Wish you would do it then. A.—My policy has always been;to se¬ lect for the lower positions, that is fpr the beginning in my office, staff and in the vari- our relations, clean, young men; that were am¬ bitious to improve and make their way in the world. Now, these young men. steadily move lit) from the lowest -positions as, they show themselves qualified to take the highest. po¬ sitions. Q.—Is it from these gentlemen that ypti select your advisers? A.—They come to be good advisers. Among the list Of these younger men I know, some men who are quite competent to speak intelligently in regard to' the affairs Of business. Q.—How frequently do you see Mr. Jerome phy ? A.—Well I see Mr. Murphy say per¬ haps one or twice In a year. Q.—How freiqutfttiy do you see Mr. Jerome D. Greene? A.—I do not see Mr. Greene—I would not naturally see Mr. Gre4ne as often as I See Mr. Murphy, as Mr. Murphy has been now a long time in my employ. workers in industry and relieve the neces¬ sity pf extending charity, especially of those in it? A;—I believe the best way to help the laboring men is to give them steady work and wages, which they can earn—fair wages. I believe that that is better than any and all of the charities. And I believe that' the good : laboring men would prefer to have the labor and their honorable positions rather than to have ari’y cliafity. rectly? A.—Yes, at the present time, un ih e Legislatures had complaints to make. Q._Weli, in the insurance companies, where it was concentrated at least to the extent [ of the interested persons being policy holders, did you not observe that the existence of the abuses covered many years, and that it was with great difficulty that a large number of : the policy holders and stockholders brought | about the even better conditions through legis¬ lative Inquiry? A.—-I did not .follow that in¬ surance affair—that investigation. I do not have the details or particulars of that irf my mind. I had no personal interest in it, I believe, in one way. or another, j Q.—In the answers which you have already i made to the commission— in addition to. them, I would like to ask a few additional 1 questions. You say under the terms of the clause of your letter of gift you reserve this Two Meetings with Greene. Q.—Mr. Greene stated that ho had met you but twice in five .years during one period. A.—That is probably correct. Q.—And Mr. Gates, who has retired shortly from your personal staff, how frequently did you see him? A.—I do not recall of course, definitely, but periods of years run by. Q.—Have you seen President Eliot since he has been on the Rockefeller Foundation? Have you met him? A.—I have only met President Eliot twice in my life. T have se en him once, answering your question. Q.—since the foundation was instituted A.— Yes, Sir. Q.—Now, you are a Director of the foun¬ dation, a trustee that is? A.—I am Q.—But^ you do not attend its meetings? A.—I have not attended any of the meetings So far. , Q.—In so far as the personal direction you desire-to give it is concerned, dogs that go through your, soft? A.—Might I ask what personal direction you refer to? Q.—For instance, what I am leading up to, Mr, Rockefeller, is that an inquiry has been set upon foot by this foundation into the industrial relations of the United States, and I was going to ask you whether or not that was your concer|.ion A,—If you will be good enough to repeat the question to see if I got it straight. Q.—I was inquiring whether or not the per¬ sonal direction that you desired to give tf the foundation, if any—your personal suges- tions, perhaps, I might say—came to the Directors of the foundation, of the Ex¬ ecutive Committee, through your son or Mr. Murphy or through what source? A.—I suppose it Would come from them to me more than from me to them; that is to say, they are conversant with the applica¬ tions; they are conversant with the applica- the world over. I do not personally follow such questions.. When a great need arises I may know before action is tkken. I may not ‘ T now, but I have my r|?ht as" a Director and Jy voice in giving With the others. Nothing efferent from the other Directors. iMr. Walsh again mentioned the point fiat Mr. Rockefeller did not attend the meetings. IQ.—And when you have a suggestion to cake that you desire to go before the whole hard, how do you transmit it',to the board? '..—Well, my son often speaks to me about he things they are considering, such as the ookworm or the relief In this quarter or I hat quarter, and if I have any expressions ICp make, that would be one of the ways. Or if I were to meet any of these Directors, or If they communicated with me by ’phone or any way. Q.—How often have you met Ivy Lee? A. —I think I have seen Mr. Dee perhaps two or three times, possibly more. Purely a Social Event. Q.—Referring to the occasion at Tarry¬ town, when Messrs. Welborn and King were present, as you say, was there a discussion there of the pending trouble in the State of Colorado ? I will ask you a few leading No Desire to Offend. Q.—It has been stated, and I will state to you as briefly as I can and ask for, your opinion! Of course, what I say, you will understand I say without any personal reference or desire to offend. A.—Oh, yes. Q.—It has been stated many times that it might be, better for persons controlling very large .industries,. Instead of , devoting the ex¬ cess profits to the dispensation of money along philanthropic i and eleemosynary lines that they should organize some system by which they could distribute it in wages first hand, or give to the workers a greater share if the productivity of the industry in the irst place. Now, as one of . the great givers of the world, Mr. Rockefeller, I will ask kindly to comment upon that statement. -I will be very happy to see the laborers gradually become the owners of these same prosperous businesses to which you refer. I should be only too • happy to surrender my holdings, in part in any,or all that the la¬ borers might come into the v relation to the enterprise and have their representation on the Boards of Directors according to their ownership, just' the same as all- other share¬ holders. • I want to read to you,” Mr. Walsh interjected, but Mr. Rockefeller disre¬ garded thej interruption and continued: “ Those giving them the profits to which -you referred, giving them in ad¬ dition to their labor those handsome profits which you ate having in mind. I should be very happy to have them get those profits, and feel that they were my .partners.” V Q.—Have you thought of any plan by which this transfer, could.be made? A.—The trans¬ fer of stock? Q,—Yes, the. transfer of Stock or the trans¬ fer of ownership that would .thiis give the profits to the workers in greater share? A,— Yes, that has been, practiced in different institutions for . long years. The, processes, Of course,: are very different, Mr.- Chairman The man who has his money to pay for- one share or more .simply receives his Share. and he is already a member of the firm, one of the shareholders. And then he gets his two scares and three, and so on. Thus he is entitled to know all the ins and outs of the affairs of business. 'Q-—Without going into the details, did you read the grievances of the . miners of Colo¬ rado addressed to the executive officers of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company, Mr. Rockefeller? A.—I did not go into those questions of detail, and. they were far beyond my reach. Q.—Did you read the grievances of the workmen in the mines of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company addressed to the executive officers of that company in 1903? A.—Oh, no, I have no recollection of any of those old conditions. I was a new investor at that time in this enterprise. I had just joined, with, .some bthett friends and wo saved the enterprise at about that: time from bank¬ ruptcy,by, putting in large additional; capital. I have no recollection of that. Q.—Have you ,ever been advised of the claims of the workingmen in any of , these industries in which you are a large.investor? A.—No, ; Sir. That, would not come to me. That would- he . a: matter of detail that would j Quotes Roclcefuller, Jr. Q.—r will read you, Mr. Rockefeller, from The Congressional Record, covering the hear¬ ing of the sub-committee of Mines' arid Min- ! ! right—that Is, to hold personal control of a j portion of it? A.—Yes. I Q.—It is stipulated that the objects must be within the corporate purposes of the foundation? A.—Yes. : Q-— I believe that letter of gift was the ! R ape D w hich alone transmitted the title of this $100,000,000 to- the foundation* or was .there another deed or document passed to I foundation? ' A.—My attorney would kttow [ better .about that- I should think that would Jibe the order of the transfer. 1 Q.—I think we may-assume that as we re- . ceived an answer to that question frOm your [son? A.—Already? Q-—Yes, but I was going to ask, do you I consider that in case the Legislature did re¬ peal this charter during your lifetime, the property would go back to you? A.—Well, I have been so hopeful, Mr. Chairman, other¬ wise that I confess I have not allowed myself to worry about that. I have a great deal of confidence in this board, and I have a great deal of confidence in our American people, In their integrity and in their good common sense, and in that is. our security, i Q.—Npw, then, in case that something were to happen after your departure from this I world which would cause the Legislature to repeal the charter of your foundation, was it your idea in writing that letter under those circumstances the money would go back to your heirs or to your estate? A.—I think 1 that you will find that there are provisions in the charter for the distribution of those funds by the Trustees perhaps. I think that ; they can distribute—if you will kindly read questions to, bring you directly, to the point. A.—I do not recall any special discussion; It was purely a social event; it was that and nothing more. Q.—was anything said there about writing the letter In answer to the suggestions of the President with reference to relieving the situation in Colorado? A.—I do not recall there was anything of that kind. Q.—Had you been told prior to that visit, Mr. Rockfeller, that it was expected to em¬ ploy Mackenzie King to .undertake a world-; wide investigation into industrial .relations ? A.—My son some time before this had called , my attention to Mr. King.' - ■ Q.—Was there anything said upon the oc¬ casion of Mr. King meeting or being with you on this social occasion at Tarrytown with reference to his employment by the Foundation? A.—Nothing whatever; it was, as I have already stated, a purely social meetinsr at the dinner table. Q.—What responsibility, Mr. Rockefeller, do you believe that Directors have for labor conditions in the corporations which they come to the proper officials. O.—Your statement that in proper limita¬ tions. wise ones, both the owners of an indus¬ try arid, the vrorkttjeri?§houid ,be alloFed to or -1 ganize^. ist based 'silfeon-your [experience, I he- j lievo you • Stated, as a business man? A.—I I would not ask any privilege or right for my¬ self that I would not accord to the humblest man., I have always stood,; right there- the question®again, please? The reporter read the query, and Mr. Rockefeller said he had never thought of that question. Mr. Roelcefeller’s Advisers. Q.—Now, it has been stated, I believe, Mr. Rockefeller, that you. have certain gentlemen.: Who are your personal advisers as to your business' and investments? A.—Yes, Mr. Chairman. Q.—Those are Starr J. Murphy, Mr. —. I would have you repeat' them, please.; A---I do not know that I could out of hand repeat the names of all of the' gentlemen who HIT i-, .-nn-ii ivi'i;I -mild ! mw- direct? A.—I should say that the responsi¬ bilities in connection with the labor ques¬ tion were lodged with the officials appointed for that particular purpose, on account of their fitness for such position. Q.—Do you; believe that constant reports should be made to Boards of Directors as to the conditions,of labor so that they may take them up as Directors prior to the actual out¬ break of labor difficulties? A.—Well, Mr. Chairman, I think I oould not enter into that question. I am not upon any of these business boards, and have not been for tong years. Q.—From your experience as an active busi¬ ness man and manufacturer, what would you say as to the desirability and right of workingmen to form themselves into or¬ ganizations for what they deem to be their whole protection and advancement? A.—I would accord to all men the right to or¬ ganize theniselves—the workingmen and the business men as well, with the proper limi¬ tations In respect to safeguarding the. in¬ terests of the public or parries concerned. Q. —After an industry has been .organized to the extent that it can be controlled, that' is, by one man or one group; of men*, acting harmoniously and in concert, would it he possible out of" the potential profits of that , institution to increase wages to such an ex- . tettt, as to 'raise the economic level,, of ’all the ing, before following up the testimony, being the testlrnony of your son; “ I have been so greatly interested in the matter, and have such a : warm sympathy for this very large number of men Who Work for us, that I should be the last one to surrender the liberty under which they have been working and the conditions which to them have been entirely satisfactory, to give ttP that liberty and’accept dictation from those outside who have no interest in them or in the company.; We believe that the issue is not a local one in Colorado; it is a national issue, whether workers shall be al¬ lowed to work under such conditions as they may choose. And as part owners of the property, our interest in the laboring men In this country is so immense, So deep, so profound, that we stand ready to lose every cent We put in rather than see the men we have employed thrown out of work and have imposed upon them conditions which are not of their, seeking and Which neither they nor we can see are in our interest. There Is just one thing, Mr. Chatrtnan, so far as I understand it, which c‘an be done; as things are at present, to settle this strike, and that is to unionize the camp; and our interest in labor is so profound, and we be¬ lieve so sincerely that that interest demands that the camp shall be an open camp, that we expect to stand by the officers at any s cost. It is not an accident that ihis is our s position. We cannot allow outside people to come in and interfere with employes who II are thoroughly satisfied w.ith fair labor g conditions. It was upon a similar principle that the War of the Revolution was carried T Q.—Considering now that the outside j persons who came in were the organizers of [ a union which existed In the mining place of the company, would you say that that is your position? A.—Well, I feel decidedly I that the employer must stand by hie loyal • men. He cannot be treacherous to those men ; who render services faithful in their duties. and by all means the employer should stand ; by his faithful employes. Q.— is that all you care to say on the 1 subject? That, was quite a long statement, and especially, is that your position, or , would that be a fair way to ask you to i -ntcaaceurwry . »»***«*•««— -*«*-» to-.’ i generation. The great industrial cor- 1 porations of our time* have robbed the people of their economic independence. They have established a sort of. indus¬ trial feudalism. They are now making a bold assault on the intellectual inde¬ pendence of this Country, and their philanthropies, endowments, and fouiD da tions are the instruments of such , a Mr^Hillquit characterized the Rocke¬ feller Foundation as “one of the,most arrogant challenges ever Issued by an individual against the Government and the people.” . , , Commissioner WeiftStock asked Mr. Hillqutt what he would do if he should wake up some morning and find that he had inherited $100,000,000. “I would turn it back to the State or Government for the Use of the people from whom it was Wrung,” was the \ The commission will hold its last ses¬ sion 1 in the city for the present today, when Seth'Dow' will be a witness. The , i ■■ i ■; ■ in >. h Cbm '-m JL BAIN q Yesterds In City of Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller Take Stand and Defend Their Foundations **/HAVE A GREAT DEAL 1 OF CONFIDENCE IN THIS BOARD AND /HAVE A & GREAT DEAL OF CONFI - i DENCE IN OUR AMERICANS °EOPLEj IN THEIR. Nr J INTEGRITY AND IN I THEIR GOOD COMMON 8 Sense , and in that \ IS our security.” 'John d. Rockefeller. - Behind Mr BACK THEY ALWAYS CALL, me Andy*” STEEL MAN JOLLY Ironmaster and the World’s Richest Man Witnesses in Same Day Before Federal Industrial Board. Neither One Believes in Likelihood of Great Funds Working Evil—Mr. Rockefeller Would Wel¬ come Laborers as Partners. In the same room, in two hours, and occupying the same chair within a few minutes of each other, John D. Rockefeller, sr., and Andrew Car¬ negie, the two retired giants of the world’s greatest industries and the present directors of the world’s greatest : philanthropies, testified yes¬ terday afternoon before the Federal Commission on Industrial Relations. It was not only the commission’s red-letter d&y—it was, in that line, history’s. In a manner that was almost informal a public body had asked the world’s richest men to tell what the public wanted to know. And, after the master of oil and the master of steel had been excused from the stand, that body seemed to be satisfied. Not more than five hundred men and women, crowded into the Assem¬ bly Hall on the eleventh floor of the Metropolitan Building, heard the stories of these men. And, oddly enough, neither Mother Jones nor any of the other leading proponents of labor’s cause was in that gathering. Nothing could be more striking than* the difference in the words and action's of the Oil and Steel kings. Mr. Rocke¬ feller was cold and without emotion in every minute of his testimony, though he was aiming—has been aim¬ ing—to devote ’ himself . t<> the service of -his fellow man. He was always serious. The smiles that came to his lips were not the expressions of , sin¬ cerity. Outwardly, at least, the pict¬ ure of him has not been incorrectly drawn. Of Mr. Carnegie, of course, this atti¬ tude was not expected. He has always been considerable of a contributor to general gayety. But yesterday he was in his most festive mood. At eighty— he is four years older than Mr. Rocke¬ feller—he was younger in spirit. His audience could not fit him into the frame that imagination constructs for the picture of a giggatic treasure builder. He was not satisfied to sit quietly in his chair—he stepped around the platform in excess enthusiasm. He appeared a man whose heart ached to have the poor sons of toil nestle dose to him and be patted lovingly on the head. Spectators Make Merry. From the beginning he directed his testimony toward two points—love and laughter. Most of the time he was witness he had the spectators so co: vulsed that the commissioners were, at least by infection, forced to give way, and there was never a hope that the proceedings could be brought back to dignity until Mr. Carnegie and the audience were willing to permit it. Taken together, their testimony seemed to indicate that these men have been working for years to uplift , and spread their money among the work¬ ers. As they told their stories, it seemed that their life purpose has STAFF been to eliminate corruption and ■ un- r| the witness went * off on the wrens? happiness and establish here a condi- | lack' through a misunderstanding of tion of life that measures up nicely to the laborer’s conception of what the millennium will be. In stature, Mr. Rockefeller and Mr. Carnegie are different. Mr. Carnegie is probably the shortest man that ever amassed enormous riches. Mr. Rocke¬ feller, of course, is the tallest. Both men evidenced the possession of good health. Mr. Carnegie’s round face was sparkling with it. Mr. Rock- the question, but lack of space makes it impossible to give all 0 f these in¬ stances, though they threw much of the color into the examination. ‘ W -iV,. r i w ,?V ld say they ha <* some re¬ sponsibility, he at length replied, “but nine times out of ten they are not hav- mg anything to do with the works; they hardly know of conditions at them. They are not there for that purpose— to regulate the works. They are there to attend to the administration of these funds. That would depend a great deal upon what the president did. efeller'a cheeks were high in color. I went on one of the trustsand His .voice , was strong , and steady; at the ™ deat . of the United States”- times Mr. Carnegie's broke. ,, T Q» estlon Misunderstood. Neither faltered, at a , question.: r ^ d f?, ot , w . ake ' mv m ® aa , - question, i ng c i ear ,” Mr. Walsh ihterrunt'eT’ “T though there were moments when the am leaving the foundations now/ and questions seemed ,to puzzle, them, but; haye two or three questions to ask there seemed at all times a desire to ■ you ' What do you believe to be the -m «■.i Ki]ifv of a give what aid they could to what they both declared to be an admirable un¬ dertaking. Mr. Carnegie went on the stand at 2 o’clock. He opened by reading a state¬ ment, copies of which were supplied to the commissioners.; It was noted that for the time, at least, Mr.' Carnegie had abandoned his simplified spelling. ! He testified for one hour and ten'min¬ utes, interspersing his answers with humorous reminiscences. Mr. Rockefeller, his thin lips Work¬ ing to a point, as you have noticed in his photographs, was a witness for fifty! minutes. He and Mr. Carnegie did not f meet. The audience, made up in its usual variety, was deeply interested in both witnesses as they gave their views on foundations, labor and capital. Mr. Rockefeller’s entry was almost as much of a surprise to the commission¬ ers as to the spectators. A represen- responsibility of a director in an in- dustriah corporation ?” “An industrial corporation? Not one of mine? My corporation?” the wit¬ ness asked. Mr- Walsh explained he meant a director in an industrial corporation. Mr. Carnegie still seemed to be puzzled! He started to answer tjhat he thought he would not feel a responsibility, whereupon Mr. Walsh tried to make the question clearer by stating that the directors in some large corporations re¬ ceive reports of conditions of various features of their industry, and, re¬ ferring specifically to the board of directors ( of the Steel company, he asked: “In your opinion, did they also not receive as definite and frequent re¬ ports as to labor conditions?” “I think that it would be well,” was the answer. “I think that they would appreciate it, but I think if I were a director and I heard of no complaints, nothing going bn, I would take it for granted that everything was right. It would be when notice was served that trouble had been created that then . I should feel it my duty as a director to I like that, and I would rather have it than ‘Andrew’ or ‘Mr. Carnegie.’ There is no sympathy about that. But you have your men calling you ‘Andy’ and you can get along with them.” Once more laughter broke loose, everybody, including the commission¬ ers, joining in. “I have had no difficulty in restrain¬ ing the expression of the audieqee until you came in,” said the chairman. “That is air right,” the witness laughed, delighted with his success, j “We must observe order,” Mr. Walsh j remarked. ! “Mr, Chairman, I congratulate you u uon haxuiz such an audience and to | see how many ladies are here,” the | witness said, smiling at the specta- I tors. “Do you know one of the great- I est triumphs in this age? It is the ele¬ vation of woman.” Gentle reader, you can picture for yourself what followed. “Ladies and gentlemen, if you will please keep quiet a few minutes,” said, the chairman, “I will ask Mr. Garnegie to repeat that sentence, as some of you may not have heard it. If you will keep quiet I will ask him what it was. What was it that you said, Mr. Carne¬ gie? tative had asked him to appear to- , , , - - morrow morning, but yesterday morn- ]S° down and consult with the others.’ ing he sent word that, inasmuch as he 1 Rl ’ 1 ' Hint t;™* 1 ?” was in the city, he would like to tes¬ tify in the afternoon. Mr. Carnegie Takes Stand. “But not until that time?’ “I do not know. I would be engaged in other affairs; and it would not be | likely I would know. Provided I am j apprised of it, then I think the direc¬ tors would be bound to give atten- Mr. Carnegie took the stand a few tion.” minutes after 2 o’clock. His suit was “Well, do you not believe, in view of of. solid black. He wore a black bow j! the number of industrial disturb- tie around his short, straight collar, ! ances” J - whose ends were pointed out at the ' “My friend, now,” Mr. Carnegie in¬ top. He smiled as ne sat energetically terrupted, “let me—will you please put in the uncomfortable-looking wooden jy°ur question in another way? When chair. His face and eyes were full of ]7 0u say '^ >0 you h 0 ^ believe’ that would activity. imply that, you would have me give ac- His mustache and whiskers, which Quiescence to your view, and I want to covered a large part of his small, ig. lve my ow ; n - Be ki nd enough to say tanned face, took on his enthusiastic 1 ; d */ ou w a , , a ? k , spirit. He glanced around at the f :r - Walsh had shout to restore throng of spectators, as if sizing them I der ’ ■ rhe spectators were tossing in up to see what line of testimony would ' the ”* aPa+a an -‘"”"- go best. And they all looked at him. I want to tell you something,” Mr. Carnegie said, “that I never can forget. I was travelling in China—I went around the world and left the boys to do the work at home. But they cabled me very often. I was sitting with a mandarin in China and began to talk, and the question came up on the dif¬ ferent views of the future and of re¬ ligion and so fqrth. One of the man¬ darins said to me, ‘Mr. Carnegie, the greatest work of your Christ is the elevation of woman.’ ” Chairman Gives Up. not knowing the tack he was to take. The door in the rear of the room was admitting; a stream of men and women, some of them employes of the insurance company, who had stolen a few. minutes to take a bracing dip in the river of wisdom scheduled to over¬ flow its banks. Mr. Carnegie gave his name and his address. “What is your business?” Mr. Walsh ;asked. j “My business is to do as much good as I can,” the witness replied. "I’m re- i tired from business.” He stood up and gripped the ends of the small table in front of him. Chairman Walsh explained the purpose of calling him as a witness. “I do not know how to thank you,” said the Ironmaster. “I have a pre¬ pared statement here. Now, may I be¬ gin ?” “You may sit down now, if vou wish,” said Mr. Walsh. “I like to stand,” said the witness. “I’m not much of an orator, but I love I to stand.” seats. But so were the commis¬ sioners. And Mr. Carnegie was having a pleasant time also. Wants Ford to Have Chance. Ir. Carnegie placed 1 ' the table and, leaning over them. Directors’ Duties. “Should a director so keep himself advised, in view of the disturbances, the recurring disturbances of labor in the large industries, as to the condi¬ tion of labor, the wages paid, the hours of labor, the conditions surrounding the labor, so that he might have his voice in averting trouble?” Mr. Walsh asked. “I certainly believe that he should look into it, should give it attention, always remembering that he is apprised of the difficulty. As a director in an institution he would take it for grant¬ ed, if everything is running well, the president and officers do not apprise him of trouble, he might go in perfect innocence of there being any difficulty. But if he is apprised, then I think it would be his duty as a director to go and do the best he could to harmonize things.” "What do you say as to the desira¬ bility and . right of workmen to form organizations of their own for what they be.lieve to be their mutual protec¬ tion and benefit ?” ffol - 4 * Mr, Carnegie placed hi^Sa « ™ “Do you believe in the principle of collective bargaining, or the so-called right of men to bargain collectively with their employers?” “Why, yes; I had great times. I never objected—and the more I got on the committee the better.” “Your experience, then, has been, I take it, from your answer and from what you have read from your paper— it has been a pleasant experience rather than otherwise?” “I never enjoyed myself so much— I tell you, I look back to the old days— that is the chief joy I have. I burst out laughing many a time when I think of McLuckie, or Billy Edwards catching began: Commissioner’s Turn. He delivered these closing words of his prepared statement in tones as close to stentorian as his voice would permit, and, with a flourish of his right hand and a swinging bow to commissioners and spectators, he said: “I thank you, gentlemen of the com¬ mission and the members of the audi¬ ence, for your kind attention.” He sat down. He had been so active on his feet it was evident he needed a rest.' ^’N.ow, just a few questions, because the'commission is not going to keep you very long,” said Frank P. Walsh, the chairman. Mr. Carnegie smiled. The audience and the, commissioners sat up. Commissioner Commons had been resting his head in the palm of his hand; Commissioner Lennon had been twirling a toothpick abstractedly between his teeth; Commissioner O’Connell had killed time by rubbing his neck and bending over to read something; Commissioned Ballard had been slouched back in his chair, study¬ ing the ceiling, and Commissioner Gar- retson, his long left leg swung over ' bis equally long right one, had bee swinging his left foot, yawning an- looking uninterestedly at the speed A continuous ripple of laughter was now running around the room. When the witness said something that struck the.other commissioners and the spec¬ tators as particularly humorous, Mr. Walsh, himself convulsed, gave up the task of trying to check the racket. The sound was so great it brought in scores of persons from other parts of the building, all of which Mr. Carnegie ob¬ served with a satisfaction he made ne effort to hide. This was one of his big¬ gest days. Smiling, he continued his story: “Have you considered the possibility, Mr. Carnegie,” Mr, Walsh asked, “of the foundations establishing, those in which great endowments are made to educational institutions, exercising un¬ due influence upon the beneficiaries?” “I cannot imagine such a thing as that possible. From what point of view do you suggest it?” “I have no point of view. I am just asking you for your opinion, without holding any point of view.” “I cannot imagine any injury cpming from that.” “President Eliot has said—whom, of course, you know.” “Well, he is on one of my pensions. I ought to know.” “He says that the giving of these large sums of money does influence tlie directors, but the influence has always been for good.” “Yes, I think it has;” “Do you agree with that proposi¬ tion ?” “Oh—I know taking a man as he is —- there are exceptions to all rules. There may be villains receiving pensions, I don’t know: but I—the ordinary educa¬ tor, a man like President Eliot, who re¬ ceives a pension in his old age, why I cannot imagine anything that would give him greater relief, greater happi¬ ness; and he is a member—he has re¬ signed now. He was a member on the pension fund.” “Have you considered the possibility of the grant of large sums of money to educational institutions exercising an influence upon the institution or the teachers of the institution?” “Why, yes; a great influence. I think it would lead to the greatest improve¬ ment. They will have funds that they can develop with. The great want in most educational institutions is the want of funds; and with more funds they would go on developing still fur¬ ther.” “In your, practical experience in this Hne, Mr. Carnegie, the granting of money to educational institutions, have you found any persons or institutions which seemed to altei* their avowed principles or previous methods of pro¬ cedure in order to secure your other gifts?” “No, I cannot remember any such thing.” “Have you ever observed any such precarious operation just row and would not like to expose it, but thev are like myself. They may be taking care of themselves. Now, I will hedge on them.’ “But when you get a lot of able, good men capable of making their fel¬ lows’ conditions better, of elevating the world and standing for all that is re¬ fined and pure and noble, you can al¬ ways depend upon such men. And it would be as great a miracle that there should be a bad man in that line as that there should be a Judas Iscariot among the Apostles.” “I never heard that suggested. I cannot imaeine the* character of men j that you get together there!' I have got a list of my trustees, and I have asked my secretary to leave it with you. I won’t trouble you with it, but m order that you could see the class of men that you would get to work for nothing and give their time and atten¬ tion without reward, excepting the greatest reward of all, the judge within (he tapped his breast' telling them that they will become of greater use in the world,” “Is it or is it not true that many colleges have given up their denomi- nationah charters and removed all de¬ nominational connections in order to secure grants from you personally or from your foundation ?” “I do not— I think there was one or two at first did it; but I have not heard of any recently. I think I remember that there was a case, and I explained that 1 wanted all the univeresities to receive young men and young women, no matter to what sect they belonged. You may call “them Methodists. There was a, university had a case in Nash¬ ville, Tenn., lately where the ministers cqme in and declared that they had the ruling of the $2,000,000 I gave them, and the trustees took it up to the high¬ est court, and they decided no, that my gift; was right, and it was for a medical school. A Creed. him there. ‘You take my job."’ That was I change, for instance, in any institution the cleverest thing I ever did. ‘Order, Mr. Edwards, order! Mr. Carnegie takes no man’s job.’ ” Mr. Carnegie laughed in recollection and he glanced at the spectators, who were enjoying his testimony to the full. “You never felt, Mr. Carnegie, that you could not confer with any men rep¬ resenting an organization of workmen that came in a businesslike and re¬ spectable manner to confer with yon?” Chairman Walsh asked. “I was only too glad when the work¬ men came. I felt sure—I felt pretty sure—that if they came to consult with me we would part all right.” “And did you find that it was usually a means of establishing peace to so deal with your workmen?” to which your Foundation gave money, f in the teaching of vocational education i and training or the teaching of politi- 1 cal, economy, or in the discussion there¬ of by the professors ?” Mr. Carnegie Elucidates. tors. “What do you say,” Chairman'Walsh began, “as to the responsibility of di¬ rectors in industrial corporations for I labor conditions in their plants?” [ Mr. Carnegie did not get the ques¬ tion, so it was repeated, Frequently CALLED HIM ANDY BEHIND HIS BACH “Undoubtedly. I knew them by name, and I delighted—and you see, behind my back they always called me ‘Andy/ “No; I could not point out a case.” “You have never observed a case of that kind?” “NeVer. Of course, with more money you get into some fix you would not otherwise get; you get better instruc¬ tors, perhaps, in certain lines, and I will tell you, Mr. Chairman, one rule that I think you might use here, when¬ ever a body of men bind themselves to¬ gether to do anything mean, low and disreputable or unjust—for instance, take New York here, just as an illus¬ tration. “You cannot get a body of men— such men as we are talking about;—to organize and agree to do anything that would be injurious or to break the laws or anything of that sort, because the bad man will say to himself: ‘All these men are engaged with me in a “And I do- certainly require that, no matter what a young man thinks about the future life or any dogmas, I do not believe in my money shutting the door to that man, and saying, ‘You shall not be educated as a physician because you do not believe this, that or the other. I say that my money is for every young man and .every young woman, and I do not care what he thinks or they think about the other world. My duties in this life are here in this life, and it is to benefit my fellow men in this world, and I tell you you can let the future world take care of itself if you obey the judge within.” “Do you believe, Mr. Carnegie, that the state or federal government should exercise any supervisory control over great foundations?” “Why, I would be delighted to wel¬ come them. I do not believe the United States government or the State Legis¬ lature would have any desire to do anything that would not be agreeable to me. I would restrict nothing of that kind.” “Do you believe that full publicity should be given to the activities of these fpundations ?” ■ “Weil, I have heard of that stoi’y — it is one of Burdette’s, the! man who just died in the West, who was the publisher of ‘The Burlington Hawkeye/ who said: ‘The Rev. Mr. Taylor is' to ' preach to-rtight, Sunday night, upon “Why was Lazarus a beggar?” We have never thought there was any doubt upon the question. The question was settled long ago. He did not adver¬ tise/ (Laughter.) Now, I believe in advertising. (Laughter.) I would like ! more men, more people, to get inter- j ested in my foundations. T am so sure ; they will be benefited that I would wel¬ come them all, and I would not mind having more directors to-morrow.” Regarding interlocking directorates Mr. Carnegie said: “Now, we have several—-a great many of these men—noted men; and I have several times, I think, said: ‘If we had him on this board he would be adding great force to it.’ And he has been elected. I don’t, think that interlock¬ ing directors in my institutions—-I do not think it has proceeded any further than benefited the case.” “Your idea is that if you observe a good man in one place, who shows he is a good man and has some special knowledge or special adaptability, you forget to come to' Pittsburgh' if you want to see something there worth while.” . “We are going to hold a hearing in Pittsburgh,” said the, chairman. “Oh, I see. 1 am very glad. I thank you very much,” Mr. Carnegie respond¬ ed and stepped down. Mr. Carnegie, bowing to commission¬ ers and spectators, moved from the chair and shook hands with Commis¬ sioners; Commons, Lennon and Walsh. Then he started for his overcoat and hat. The spectators were still laugh¬ ing, so the chairman said: “Now, ladies and gentlemen, I am going to ask you now that you will all here co-operate# with the commission from this time forward to preserve perfect order. Of course, we will for¬ get the past. Mr. Carnegie unsettled the commission and the audience, too. Call Mr. Rockefeller.” That order silenced the audience— and thrilled them. It was the most unexpected feature of the long series of hearings. It was hard to realize that the richest man in the world had consented—for he was not subpoenaed —to be questioned on his views on cap¬ ital and labor and his Foundation. As Mr. Rockefeller started from the little ante-room Mr. Carnegie reached the end of the assembly hall, where he was ambushed by a corps of pho- tographers, and the attraction there threatened to disrupt the main pro¬ ceedings. I THE WORLD: SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1£ TWO MASTERS OF BILLIONS AS THEY LOOKED IN THE WITNESS CHAIR. %31» CAMERA STUDIES of cJOHN D. ROCKEFELLER. <=L-rLcL ANDREW CARNEGIE TESTIFYING BEFORE •Lhe. 1NDUSTRIM COMMISSION -yes±£.-r&x.y t 'by a. V/orld Sia.Ef PKotogrH.pKejr. JOHND. ROCKEFELLER—Seventy-fine years old July8 last. Business: “I have been retired for the past twenty or twenty-five years.” Donor ofy'ap- proximately a quarter of a billion dollars” to various public .and private benefactions, according to his son’s estimate a week ago, and believing “It is a great power to be able to give. It may be equally virtuous or commendable to withhold.” Tall, slender and gray, his ruddy face bespeaking, his outdoor life. Dressed yesterday in a suit of mixed gray and green and red, With a blue- striped shirt, a high.band collar, a* dark blue four-in-hand scarf and an emerald pin. , Steady, small eyes, looking through rimless eyeglasses that slipped at intervals from his nose. Talking in a high.nasal tone he testified, at a timed, rate of sixty words a minute, Smiled only once, pies, ANDREW CARNEGIE—Seventy-nine years old Nov.. 25 last. Business: j “To do as much good as I can.” Donor of $824,657,899 to various public and private benefactions, and thinking himself “in nothing else so happy as in a soul remembering my dear friends, to.whom I owe so much” Short of stature, with hair and pointed beard of white. Dressed yester¬ day all in blaph—gaiters, clothes and satin bow tie xoith burnished gold studs and cuff buttons. Snapping eyes looked over silver spectacles, while the exuberance of his spirits carried him from chuckles to shouts of laugh¬ ter, while he gestured freely and widely. Voice strong and pleasant, though ,, growing husky toward the end of his hour’s examination. Heluctant to leave \ the stand, and declaring when he did so : “I haven’t spent so agreeable an afternoon in I don’t know when.” 1-- 1 --- Tl . measured in terms of money, 1 hall for the photographers till such principles have been fully set forth TO GIVE; J. 0. NOT “Kings” of Steel and Oil Testify Before Industrial Relations Commission, ^nd Mr. Rocke¬ feller Says His Sole Motive Is to Give Part of His Riches to Serve His Fellow Men. WOULD BE GLAD TO SEE TOILERS OWN BUSINESSES. No Danger in Foundations, Says Laird of Skibo, but Adds There Are Villains Receiving Money' From His Benefactions—He Does Not Care What Colleges, Teach of Future World. Andrew Carnegie and John D. | Rockefeller sr., whose philanthro- J probably exceed those of any two men who ever lived, testified yester¬ day afternoon before the United States Commission on Industrial Re¬ lations. Together, their public and private gifts have reached a total of $575,000,000—a sum almost equal to the world’s production of gold and silver at the last reckoning. Mr. Carnegie was a creature of buoyant spirits in the hour he spent on the stand; Mr. Rockefeller was repressed,; sombre. The one was car¬ ried on the surge of his glee to shouts of laughter; the other smiled but once, and then as he looked into, the lens of a camera. Holding the mil-; lions thhT sprang from the first great j Industrial trusts of America, the one declared his joy in giving, the other submitted that there might be virtue in withholding. The steelmaster’s appearance as a witness was arranged long ago, hav¬ ing been first set for Jan. 26. Mr. Rockefeller’s ^as not considered until Thursday, when this morning was suggested as the time for his coming. It was at his own request that the programme was changed. His intro¬ duction to the audience in the assem¬ bly Hall of the Metropolitan Life Building wa$ a complete surprise. He came and went from the room by a private stairway. ■ Andrew Still a Joy to Crowd. Tears of mirth stood In the eyes of qustioners and auditors alike when Mr. Rockefeller took the stand, for Mr. i Carnegie had carried his audience ! beyond all restraint. Still in the full tide of his exuberance when Mr. Rockefeller mounted the platform, the j steelmaster posed in the rear of the ; cries of merriment arose that Chair¬ man Frank P. Walsh had to' ask the newcomer to wait until they died. Thomas J. Egan, the sergeant-at- arms who had served the subpoena at Pocantico Hills Thursday afternoon, helped Mr. Rockefeller up the steep little flight of steps to, the table at which he was to sit. Mr. Carnegie, four years his senior, had gone up them with a bound. With a barely perceptible inclination of the head toward the Chairman, Mr. Rockefeller began his answers to the formal ques¬ tions of identification. Splitting it very definitely into sylla¬ bles, he gave his name as “John D. Ifcfck-ee-fell-ur,” and - added: “My legal residence is No. 4 West Fifty-fourth Street. I have been re¬ tired for the past twenty or twenty- five years.” Then he proceeded to the reading of his answers to the questionnaire sub¬ mitted by the commission. He mois¬ tened the sides of his nose with a j finger-tip before he adjusted a pair of rimless eye-glasses, and with hands that trembled Visibly he opened the manuscript he drew from an inside pocket. . Money TaiLs AYiUi a Twang. In a voice that rose and fell with a na§al twang, My. Rockefeller read at a timed ratq of sixty words a minute. His- statement was as follows: ,, “Question / One—The ^motive: and ; principle which underlie "the various foundations which ,you| have estab¬ lished. ■ ~ _ r “Answer—The sole, motive underly¬ ing the,various foundations which I hqve established has- been the dfesire-, to devote a portion-of mv fortune ,to ; the service,, of my fellow men. 'The; the two ch apte rs of my book— ‘Random Reminiscences’—which have already been made a part -of the rec¬ ord of your commission. “Question Two—Your purposes and plans with respect to the expenditure of the special $2,000,000 annual fund which is reserved for your special personal use by the Rockefeller Foun¬ dation. “Answer—The Rockefeller Founda¬ tion was a development into imper¬ sonal form of my own personal plans of giving, followed for many years. While I desired to have the’ directors of the Foundation free to use the funds as they might see fit, in mak¬ ing my last gift I reserved the right to designate during my lifetime the specific objects to which $2,000,000 of the income should be given annually, my purpose being in this way to pro¬ vide for the various philanthropies, more or less personal to myself and related to 6ie places of my residence, to which I have been a contributor in the past. Under the terms of the clause of my letter of gift reserving this right, it is stipulated that the objects must be within the corporate purposes of the/Foundation, and my designations are subject to review by the board as to that feature. “Confidence in Democracy.” 1 “Question Three—Your views re¬ garding the safeguards which have been stated to be necessary to pre¬ vent such an institution as the Foun¬ dation from becoming a menace to the public. “Answer—I regard the right to amend or,rescind the respective char¬ ters of the several foundations which inheres in the, legislative bodies which granted them an entirely sufficient guarantee., against serious abuse of) the fund. Furthermore, I have such ! confidence in democracy that I be¬ lieve it can better be left to the peo¬ ple and their representatives to rem- | edy evils, when there is some tangible reason for believing they are impend - ing, rather than to restrict the power for service in anticipation of purely I hypothetical dangers. “Question Four—The conference^ at Tarrytown with regard to the affairs' of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Com¬ pany, at which were present Mr. Wel¬ born, Mr. King, yourself and others. “Answer—The meeting at Tarry- j j town therein referred^ to was purely social in character. Messrs. King and | Welborn were spending the night witlr my Son. He asked me ^0 meet these ! gentlemen at dinner;-T never .had had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Welborn before the conference took place. Such mention as was made of business matters was of a purely informal and j unpremeditated nature, taking place i as T sat at dinner beside lr. Welborn. j | Question Five—Your opinion re- !■ garding the responsibility" of investors and directors for the labor conditions existing in the corporations in which ; they are interested. Big Men, Big Responsibility. “Answer—X think the stockholders are responsible for the choice of the 'best men as directors/ The directors j are ultimately responsible for the jj J general conduct of the business, and in discharging that responsibility it is their duty to select the best men to actually administer it. These ad- j ministrative officers must have dis- j cretlon and power commensurate -with their responsibilities. A large stockholder ordinarily would have more influence with a Board of Direc¬ tors than a smaller one, and conse¬ quently would have a greater respon¬ sibility for the selection of directors who would see to it that the adminis- ; trative officers maintained proper working "conditions for their em¬ ployees.” Although made at no such length as those of his son last week, Mr. Rocke¬ feller’s answers bore a striking re¬ semblance to them, not only in pur¬ port but in phraseology. Q. When you established your Foundation did it occur to you that it might come to be a menace to the public? A. No, I can’t say that I had any fears on that question. Depends on People’s Watch. Q. Do you believe that foundations ' I of this character may have such a I tendency? A. I have had no occasion for anxiety on that score. * Q. What precautions didT you take to prevent such a development? A. Well, I think I have relied on the peo¬ ple who are constituted to watch and I to know what they are doing with the funds. And the Legislatures which granted the charters will be much in¬ terested. But they can’t be more in¬ terested than I am. Q. Do you believe it would 'be ad¬ visable for all such foundations to be ! chartered by the Federal Govern¬ ment? A. Well, not at the present. Speaking of thte Rockefeller Fdunda- i tion. I would feel that the interests of take P care off Ve b ' We to Q. Do you believe that there sbmos be full publicity for all acts of suc h foundations ? ; A. I think that would be very we 1, indeed. I think it would I be desirable that the public shoSld made & report^ should be' Q. Do you believe there should be some system of inspection? a t haven’t had occasion to contemnl'ate • .-._ any such thing- up to the present time I ’ li? ve , the necessity of charity? A. Q. Do you believe that such fo^-' The w . ay f? he| P laboring dations are likely to exercise any un- iS to g ‘X£, * um steac *y work and , . >y un fair wages . That is better th ,, due influence on education? A. I have - 1 —* *--•• .. . no fear whatever in that regard. Nothing in my observation has led me to have any anxiety so far. Q. Have you found any persons or institutions altering- their convic for their protection and betterment? A. i think that right should be ac¬ corded to all men, workingmen and business men as well, with proper limitations, of course, with respect to safeguarding the interests of the pub- ! lie. “Steady Work £nd Pair Wages.” I Q. After industrial organization has > brought about development and pros- • peritY, do you not believe that there 1 should be such an increase Y>f wages as to raise the economic level and r charity. I believe the men themselves would prefer to have their labor and their honorable positions than any charity. Q. Instead of devoting the excess , —-Q-: - . ,- > profits of Industry to benevolence do tions or their teachings as a result off you not believe, they should be dis- gifts from your foundatiems? A. I have tributed in the form of increased never known, I have never heard, of| wages? A. I would be very happy to anything of that kind. I can’t imag- see laboring men gradually become me our people wanting anything of the owners of these same prosperous that kind. 1 --■ - Q. Did you ever hear of colleges changing their denomination in or¬ der to secure gifts? A. As to our foundation, I have no knowledge that that ever happened; as to other foundations, I do not know. Q. Do you not believe that the greatest power of these foundations arises from their ability to give or withhold money? A. It, is a great power to be able to give money; it may be equally virtuous or com¬ mendable to withhold it. A great re¬ sponsibility rests upon the adminis¬ trators. s Q. If the charter of the Foundation should be repealed for any reason, would the property it, holds go back to you? A. I have been so hopeful I haveh’t worried about that. I have great confidence in the trustees. I have a great deal of confidence in the American people and their good common sense. In that lies our curity. Never Thought of Heirs. Q. And if the charter should be re¬ pealed after you have beep, taken from-.this life? A. I think you will find provisions ih the charter for the distribution of these funds—by the trustees, X believe. I never thought! of the question whether the property would revert to my heirs or estate, i Q. Was the inquiry into industrial relations that has been undertaken by the Foundation your conception? [ A. Suggestions as to undertakings I come from them (the trustees) to me, rather than from me to them. I don’t personally follow 'such questions, but I have my right as a director to ex¬ press my opinion; nothing different from the others. Q. How do you express that opinion, since, I understand, you do | not attend meetings of' the Founda¬ tion. A. My son often speaks to me j about these things. If 1 have any I expression to make, that is one of the ways I could make it. Q. What resposibility do directors have for labor conditions . in their corporations? A. I should say that they are responsible largely for the officials appointed for that particular purpose. Q. Are reports made to directors as to conditions of labor? A. I think I could not enter into that question. T I am not on any of these boards, and haven’t been for many years. { Q. Do you believe in the right of I men to associate themselves toqether businesses to which you refer. . should be only too happy to surren¬ der my holdings to my men, and make them my partners in the stock, thus giving them the profits to which you refer, and thus giving them, in addi¬ tion to their wages, these handsome profits to which you refer. Q. Did you ever read the grievances of the Colorado millers? A. I did not go into thoHe questions in detail. They are far beyond my. reach. Q. Did you read the grievances for¬ mulated at the 'time of the strike of 1903? A. I have no recollection of any of those old conditions. I was a new investor in the property then, having joined with some friends and saved the company from bankruptcy. Q. Would you be willing to meet the demands of these men? A. 1 would not ask any privilege or right for my¬ self that I would not accord the hum¬ blest man in my employ. Andrew Digs at Henry Ford. Mr. Carnegie began his testimony at the resumption of the afternoon session. He sat at the witness table until Chairman Walsh addressed him, them got spryly to his feet to say that he lived at No. 2 Bast Ninety-first Street. Mr. Walsh said he understood, Mr. Carnegie had pre¬ pared a- statement, which he might read himself if he so desired. So Mr. Carnegie' stood,- ' holding his; manuscript in both hands at first,' but soon freeing his right ’ hand to gesticulate, while he made quick liti tie shrugs of his shoulders. Mr! Carnegie’s enjoyment of his opportunity began with the first words •of his statement. He paused i to chuckle over what he had to say about Henry Ford and the audience joined him. 0 “I have read with deep interest the testimony, given before you,” read Mr. Carnegie, “by many millionaires, Messrs. Schiff, Belmont, Guggenheim and Perkins, and notably Miss Tarbell, who, though not a millionaire, cer¬ tainly deserves to be. I agree with her statement that ‘sane publicity is the cure for most evils in American industrial life.’ “Last but not least, is the testimony of that, unaccountable being, Henry Ford, who declares that he could make every convict, ih Sing Sing a competent, trustworthy laborer in the vineyard. I am not disposed to ques¬ tion anything this prodigy asserts,; Success to him! By air means.let us John D. Rockefeller Defends Mine Owners in Colorado Strike War Issue With his gifts to benevolence of $324,657,899, no matter how he got the money, Andrew Carnegie sizes up pretty well with various noisy gentlemen who never earned, more than $10 a week in their lives and never gave away a dollar. Here are some of the points made by John D. Rockefeller in his i testimony yesterday before the Federal Coyivtission on Industrial Relations: “The sole motive underlying the various foundations which I have established has been the desire to devote a portion of my fortune to the service of my fellow men. “I think the stockholders are responsible for the choice of the best men as directors. The directors are ultimately responsible for the general conduct, of- the business, and in discharging that responsibility it is their duty to select the best men to actually administer it. “I have no fear whatever in regard to the foundations exercising I undue influence upon education. “I believe that the best way to help the laboring men is to give them steady work and wages which they can earn—fair wages. I believe that is better than any and all of the charities. And I believe ] that 'the good laboring men would prefer to have the labor and their honorable positions rather than to have any charity. “I will be very happy to see the laborers gradually become the oivners of these same prosperous businesses to which you refer. I should be only too happy to surrender my holdings in part in any or all, that: the laborers might have their representation on the boards of directors, according to their ownership, just the same as all other shareholders. I should be very happy to have them get those profits and feel that they were my partners. “We believe that the issipe is not a local one in Colorado; it is a national issue, whether workers shall be allowed 'Jo work under such conditions as they may choose. Our interest in the laboring man is so immense, so deep, that we stand ready to lose evei'y cent we put in that company rather than see the men we have employed throivn out of work and have imposed upon them conditions which ' are not of their . ,seekiiig: It was upon a similar principle that the War of the Revolu¬ tion was carried on. I feel decidedly that, the employer must stand by his loyal men.” 9 | f give him a trial. ' I “I never bought or sold shares on the Exchange; all my earnings were from manufacturing. If it were neces- I sary for me to return to that calling I should not consider the problem of labor at all difficult. We had one rule—we would never think of run¬ ning- our works with new men. We were very particular in regard to drinking. I am a total abstainer my¬ self. On a third offense we parted 1 company.” Too Liberal, Said Partners. Coming then to the Homestead | strike of 1892, Mr. Carnegie’s voice broke with emotion as he told of his desire to come back from Scotland and of Henry Phipps’s later statement that Mr. Carnegie’s ‘^partners begged him not to, appear, as they were of the opinion that the welfare of the company required that he should not be in the country at the time. They all knew his extreme disposition to always grant the demands of labor, however unreasonable.” Shaking his head sadly, Mr. Car¬ negie .added: “Some of the men at the works cabled "me: ‘Kind Master: TelJ. un what you want us to do, and we will do it for you.’ But it was too late.” Played Banker for Widows. Of his philanthropies Mr. CarnegiO . talked in detail with pride. In the course of this he told for the first time of playing banker under the su¬ pervision of the State Banking De¬ partment of New York to .148 widows of former employees who have de¬ posited $3,137,394.20 with him and who get 6 per cent, interest. When Chairman Walsh began his cross examination Mr. Carnegie.said- he was “delighted to hear of every organization” of workingmen. Once, when the hearers laughed at one of his jocular utterances, Mr. Carnegie called down to the report¬ ers: . “Put in ‘loud laughter!’” , “We had no trouble in keeping or¬ der till ybu came, Mr. Carnegie,” said Chairman Walsh, with tears in his own eyes. “I’m glad of that,” returned the ^teelmaster. “What an audience! See how "many ladies there are "here. That’s one of the: greatest triumphs of my life.” “Villains Receiving- Pensions.” “Do you see any danger in such foundations as yours?” asked the Chairman. “I can’t imagine any injury coming 1 from that.” “Dr. Eliot says that such gifts as yours do influence schools and teach¬ ers, though the influence has always been for good,” “There are exceptions. There may be villains receiving pensions from my foundation, but a man like Dr. Eliot—why, I can't think of any greater relief than the feeling that his old age is to be free from all care.” “Have there not. been colleges that gave up denominational charters in order to secure grants from you ?” “I think there were one or two at' first. My idea about that was- that I wanted all young men and women to be received, no matter what their sect. So far as doctrine is concerned, I don’t care a fig what they think about the future world. My duty’s in this world. You can let the future world go if you obey the judge with- THE NEW . Y< NEW YORK, SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 6,~nn. JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER AND ; TELL HOW THEY GA^ TO MAKE THE WOR --4-- -bt *-:__ * Oil Man Feels No Need of Leg¬ islative Check on Foun¬ dations. HAS FAITH IN TRUSTEES AND PUBLIC OPINION Questioned on Colorado Labor Conditions, Says He Leaves That to Others. APPEARANCE A SURPRISE Goes Before Federal Commission in Answer to Letter Received Only on Thursday. John D. Rockefeller, Sr., and Andrew, Carnegie, masters of the world's two greatest personal fortunes, men who jointly (have given to educational, charita¬ ble and humanitarian enterprises nearly Bix hundred millions of dollars, testified yesterday from the same stand. They of their motives and methods in the dis¬ tribution of beneficences the magnitude of which dwarfs that of princes and poten¬ tates. It was an unprecedented: spectacle, (brought about not by the harsh dictate of subpoena but by the *mere writing of a courteous and. brief letter to each these greatest captains of American in¬ dustry. And at the request of a Kansas City lawyer, whose previous examina¬ tions have indicated marked socialistic ten¬ dencies, but who is clothed with the dig¬ nity of the chairmanship of a federal com¬ mission, the Steel King and the Oil Bang both responded to the summons. Tn the Assembly Room of the Metro¬ politan Building, in Madison square, Mr. Rockefeller following immediately upon the hejsls of Mr. Carnegie, these two founders of .the greatest beneficent en¬ dowments of this or any other age sub¬ jected themselves with composure and un¬ ruffled good nature to the quizzing of the United States Commission on Industrial Relations. For the first time the public had full opportunity to figure the relative munifi¬ cence of the gifts of the “Star Spangled Scotchman,” whose avowed doctrine, is that to die unduly wealthy is to die dis¬ graced, as compared with the vast char¬ ities of the man who made the Standard Oil Company famous. For years there has been a sort of race between these re¬ markable men in the effort to divest them-*I Mr-ROCKEFELLER- "TOe SOLE MOTIVE UNDERLYING the VARIOUS FOUNDATIONS HAS BEEN the. DESIRE to DEVOTE o' PORTION of MY FORTUNE to the, SERVICE of MY FELLOW MAN M ‘Andy,’ ” said the canny Scotsman, “you don't have much trouble with them.” Mr. Rockefeller conceded the right of the workingman and of the capitalist alike to organize for what they conceived to be their own good, assuming always that- in so organizing they did not attempt to in¬ trench upon the rights of others. When selves rationally of much of their super- gU8St f n f aW tha terribIe stru ^ le last fluous wealth-and: to redistribute it wisely for the well being of mankind. Gifts Total $600,000,000. year by the employes of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company for the recognition of the union he emphasized the dictum that no employing company has the right at .^jjhe behest of one set of men to treat with With the testimony of Mr. Carnegie! m ^tke another set who have been true yesterday and that of the elder M r . | a ^ ] °yaUo the company’s interest. Rockefeller’s son on an earlier date, test!-!, “ But 1 shou!d never ask any privilege run away with the show. Even the chair man of the commission had to join in the repeated volleys of laughter that greeted the Scotchman’s ready quips and jests. Once, when Mr. Carnegie’s jokes caused a loud outburst of merriment, he leaned far out over the reporters’ table and ex claimed -in a stage whisper:— “Loud laughter; get that in; get that in sure.” The placing of the elder Mr. Rockefeller on the stand so near the finish of' the New York hearings was a surprise. The secret had been well kept. Mr. Walsh had ad¬ dressed a letter to Mr. .Rockefeller at Pocantico Hills, asking him if'he would be willing to appear and reply to certain many were again, reran resemblance the sen bes The Standard Oil kii a gray suit, which fit closely. He wore a tu: a dark four-in-hand tit color in his face shojb of his golfing and o® I at Pocantico Hills. W : Replying to the pr the witness gave his e a clear tone, easily h letter that under those Circumstances the j money would go back to your heirs or to your estate?” “I think you will find that there are j provisions in, the charter for the distritou- { tion of these funds toy the trustees, per- ’ bans, J*ut T„. have never thought of that I mony in each case which had to be elicited by the commission’s direct interrogation, it is officially' learned for the first time that Mr. 'Carnegie’s benefactions' aggre¬ gate nearly $325,000,000, while those of the elder Mr. Rockefeller were conserva¬ tively placed;'by his son at a figure not less than $250,000,000. Upon many of the academic questions which the chairman of the commission has made familiar in his questioning of witnesses Mr. Rockefeller and Mr. Car¬ negie were .in substantial harmony when they made their replies. They agreed, for instance, that they could see no -need whatever for a federal or State curb upon the activities? of the great beneficent foundations they had inaugurated. Both felt the most perfect confidence in the ability and integrity of such men as were being and would be selected to conduct and administer these many millions. Both conceded, furthermore, the irre¬ sistible, restraining power of pnblic opin¬ ion as a force which must prevent possi¬ ble misuse of such potential funds. \ Both admitted that a high degree of publicity is most desirable in the conduct of these beneficial trusts, and the silver haired ironmaster went so far as tp say that he thought it would be an admirable thing in ordinary industrial corporations if compulsory reports were to be sub¬ mitted by the management from time to time to the Boards of Directors inform¬ ing them of the conditions surrounding labor at the various plants under their .control. I I Executives Responsible. Both Mr. Rockefeller and Mr, Carnegie maintained, however, that the primary re¬ sponsibility for these conditions rests upon the executive officers whom the directors select for their supposed fitness. The ironmaster, when he was asked to slap his attitude toward the rights of men to organize for their own protection as wage earners, said he thoroughly be¬ lieved in it, and had always recognized it in his days of active management in the Homestead works, “and the more men there were-coming to me on their committees,” said he, with a chuckle, “the better I liked it.” Mr, Carnegie’s evidence glittered with interesting reminiscence and annecdote, il¬ lustrating his personal popularity with his working men, and his hold upon their loyalty. His face beamed delightedly when he told how pleased he was to know that behind his back his men always called him “Andy.” He liked that far .^better than to be called “Andrew” or “Mr. Qsxaegis,” “When your men rail voulnrecedented treat of gazing in the one :oi iu.vs.-ff a.,-,: 1 W 1 . xibeiy kcibi'b but twice in -five years during on© pe¬ riod ?” “That is probably correct.” “And Mr. Gates, who (has retired from* your -personal staff, how frequently did j you see him?” “I do not recall, of course, -definitely, trail | periods of years ran by,” ‘Have you seen President Eliot alnc© Is# ..... m ~ ^rronorable p< any charity.’ “It has been stated many times that it might be better for persons controlling very large industries, instead of devoting the excess profits to the dispensation of money along philanthropic and) eleemosy¬ nary lines, that they should organize some system by which they could distribute it In wages first hand or give to the workers a, greater share of the productivity of the industry in the first place. Now, as otne of the great givers of ithe world, Mr. Rockefeller, I will ask you kindiy to com¬ ment upon that statement.” “I will be very happy to see the laborers gradually become the owners of these same prosperous businesses to which you refer. I should be only too happy to sur¬ render my holdings in part, in any or all, that the laborers might come into the relation to the en¬ terprise and have their represent tation on the hoards of directors, according to their ownership, just the same as all other sharehold¬ ers, thus giving them the profits to which you refer, giving them, in addition to their labor, these handsome profits which you are r having in mind. I should be very ; happy to have them get those profits and to feel that they were my partners.. “Have you thought of any plan by which this transfer could 'be made?” “The transfer of stock?” “Yes, the transfer of stock or the trans¬ fer of ownership, that would thus give the profits to the workers in greater share?” “Yes, that has been practised in differ¬ ent institutions for long years. The proc¬ esses, of course, are very different, Mr. Chairman. The man who has his money to pay for one share or more simply re¬ ceives his share, and he is already a mem¬ ber of the firm, one of the shareholders. And then he gets his two shares and three and so on. Thus he is entitled to know all . the ins and outs of the affairs of busi¬ ness.” Turn to Colorado. ’“Without going into the details, did you i, read the grievances of the miners of Col- ; ©rado addressed to the executive officers . of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company, | Mr. Rockefeller?” “I did not go into those questions of de- j' tail, and they were far beyond my reach.” ! “Did yojui read the grievances of the workmen in the mines of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company addressed to the ’texecutive officers of that company' In weight. Later his tones gained in strength, and before he had been reading his prepared statement more than five minutes the wit¬ ness was throwing his whole spirit into its phrases, and, like a skilled actor, was craftily using his mobile countenance and his whole body to emphasize his points as he drove them home. “Of course there is no objection to your standing, if you prefer to do so, Mr. Carnegie,” said the chairman, courteously. “I do prefer to stand,” said Mr, Carnegie. 'I am more accustomed to stand while talking, though I am no great orator.” Audience Not Won Yet. « . ..—--“~ Here the witness for the first time turned upon his auditors that magnetic smile which has made him famous. The socialists and the disciples of all the "isms” did. not smile back. He had not yet won them. They were studying him with knitted brows, as entomologists might study some new species with which they had been brought into close contact for the first time. Clearly, Mr. Carnegie’s audience was not much in sympathy with him—not yet. “What is your business?” asked Mr. Walsh. “My business Is to do as much good In the world as I can; I have retired from all other business.” The witness then said that, at the re¬ quest of the commission, he had tried to reply to the questions they had sent to him, and, with their permission, he would read his statement, Mr. Carnegie began to read in a clear tone, in which occasion¬ ally there was a quaver. He stood erect, holding his manuscript in the left hand, while he frequently used the right with which to score a forcible gesture, bring¬ ing down, his closed fist vigorously upon the small oak table in front of him when he wished to be especially emphatic. Often he turned, about and directly faced the throng who sat listening from the floor. Then, in some transition of thought, he would swing about and address him¬ self to the semicircle of inquisitors, whose eyes, for the most part, seemed to be riveted upon the ironmaster with a sort of tolerant curiosity. Mr. Carnegie’s Statement. Mn Carnegie’s prepared statement, which btistled with anecdote and sparkled with humor, follows:— ‘Mr. Chairman:—I have read with deep interest the testimony given before you by many millioimaires, Messrs. Schiff, Belmont,, Guggenheim, Perkins, Gary, and notably iMiss T&rbell, who, though not a mfllionnaire, certainly deserves to be; she , seems to have a firm grasp upon the' sixty days; third offence, we parted com¬ pany. “We only had one serious disaster with labor; but that was terrible, indeed. I was coaching through the 'Scottish Highlands on my holiday and did hot 'hear of the lamentable riot at Homestead until days after it occurred. I wired at once that I would take the first steamer home, but was requested not to come. My chief part¬ ner, Mr. Phipps, in a letter to the NEW York Herald, January 31, 1904, explains it as follows:— “ ‘Question:—It was stated that Mr. Car¬ negie acted in a cowardly manner in not returning to America from Scotland and being present when the strike was in progress at Homestead?’ Quotes from the Herald. “ ‘Answer by Mr. Phipps:—When Mr. Carnegie heard of the trouble at Home¬ stead the immediately wired that be would take the first ship for America, but his partners begged him not to appear, as they were of the opinion that the welfare of the company required that he should not be in this country at the time. Now mark this:— They all knew hia_ extreme disposition to always grant the demands of labor, how¬ ever unreasonable. I have never known of any' one interested in the business to make any complaint about Mr. Carnegie’s absence at that time, but all partner® re¬ joiced that they were permitted to manage the affair In their own way.’ ” As Mr. Carnegie said, “Mark this,” and then read his quotation from the Herald he brought down his fist strongly. Every sign of weakness had now vanished from his delivery, as he went on:— “Some of the men at the works cabled me, ‘Kind Master, tell us what you want us to do and we will do it for you/ It was too late.” > As he spoke the words, “too late,” the ironmaster’s voice sank to a tragic whis- per, and he continued:—“I supposed from Mr Phipps’ cable that all was settled and decided it best to conform to my partners’ wishes. My partners made a most generous offer to the workmen. The new Homestead rolling mins increased product sixty per oent over the old. The rollers were offered thirty per cent advance in wages, one-half of the total gain. I would not have done more. ^ . . ' “The error was in trying to start with new men, against our rule. But here again, I understand, the Governor of the State, with troops at Pittsburg, wished the law vindicated. With this exception we never had a grave disaster. . “One or two partners out of our forty may, as Mr, Phipps states, sometimes con¬ sider me foolish ‘in always yielding to labor,' while I am satisfied that for every dollar so spent we had indirectly ample and more than ample reward. Frankly I consider that folly was one of my best virtues. “The workmen that we had, sober, well behaving men a® they were and are to-day, are the most profitable of all, and many of them rose to permanent, high salaries, and not a few to partnership, of which we had not less than forty odd, who axe.or- - F anlzed t to^ay damned white of Andy.’ ” As the witness qujited this eulogy his features relaxed in' f.j beaming smile and his eyes twinkled J as! he added:—“Those were words which I cherish. When I heard this I suggested to my friend Van Dyke that it wouldn’t be a bad epitaph to grace one’s tombstone. If it ever did I hoped there would be no long blank between the d’s. Each letter should be put down to give McLu,Okie’s proper, expression. “When I talked to the Homestead rollers upon my return I told them my partners had offered liberal terms and I could not have offered more. One roller said:—‘Oh, Mr. Carnegie, it wasn’t a question of dol¬ lars! The boys would have let you kick them, and they wouldn’t let another man stroke their (hair.’ “May I trouble you with one example of the. working of our system? Upon one of my visits to Pittsburg I met the men who wished a conference. They asked that payments be made every two week3 in¬ stead of monthly, as the Pennsylvania Railroad employes were then paid. “One named ‘Johnny’ Edwards, a clever workman and fine fellow, rose to state their case. He said that if they were paid semi-monthly it would be equal to a raise in their wages. He and his wife visited Pittsburg the last Saturday in each month and bought a full month’s food supply, thereby saving one-third on shop prices near the works. ‘Why don’t other workmen do the same?’ I asked. He re¬ plied, ‘Few of your men can afford to buy a month in advance. My wife and I can.’ “Here was an opening. I decided it would he semi-monthly payments thereafter, and so It was. ‘Then Edwards said:—'There is another unfair charge. The coal dealers here charge almost double for coal in small quantities.’ Coal at Wholesale. ‘Indeed !’ I said, ‘Hereafter our work¬ men get their coal at the exact wholesale cost to us—not one cent of profit.’ ‘And,’ said Edwards, ‘we don’t want to be too troublesome, but everything we buy here is far dearer than in Pittsburg.’ ‘Well,’ I replied, ‘why not start a shop of your own? Rent one in Main street, and we shall pay the rent, organize and rui and charge our workmen just enough to pay your way.’ And this was done, but, sorry to say, the shop did not prove suc¬ cessful, as retailers reduced prices. A vic¬ tory ! “You have here an illustration of the dis¬ advantages workmen are often compelled to bear. There was another feature. We offered our men six per cent upon all the savings left with us, payable on demand; And here let me congratulate Judge Gary and his board upon the greatest step yet taken. When workmen were made share¬ holders they were sold shares in the com¬ pany upon a very liberal basis and guarded against loss. “I consider this the greatest of all steps forward yet taken for making workmen and capitalists fellow workmen, indeed, pulling and owning the same boat. This cannot fail to prove highly prof¬ itable to both. Far beyond the pa- labor, so that although I was inclined to yield to labor I drew the line at contract breaking. This was the first time^ I had found labor ready to break a contract, and it was the last. ‘We once proposed making a change in the distribution—not in the amount—of wages among the different departments of the steel rail mills as new machinery was introduced. The conferences, were held id Pittsburg. After several ( days’ consideration I had to leave for New Vork by the night train. The men in the mills asked by telegraph if I could meet them in our office in the afternoon. I answered, ‘Yes.’ They 1 came to the city and were seated in the board room. Mr. Edwards, who was again spokesman, began:— “ ‘Mr. Carnegie, we agree that there is a sufficient sum proposed for our total work, but we think it is not wisely divided. Now, Mr. Carnegie, you take my job’ “Takes No Man’s Job.” V ‘Order, Mr. Edwards, order. Mr. Car¬ negie takes no man’s job.’ “Suppression was impossible. Out came roars of laughter, and foot stamping, and the victory was won. We shook hands, and I was off on the plght train. Money is not the foremost or sole object of the better class of workmen. That play upon words with ‘Billy’ Edward did the busi¬ ness.” Mr. Carnegie’s audience indulged In a ripple of appreciative laughter,, for his own laughter was contagious. Then he grew serious and resumed:— “We began manufacturing with a capi¬ tal of $7,500. My share I borrowed from a bank In Pittsburg. When superintendent of the Pennsylvania Railroad I had seen a -wooden bridge ibum, blocking traffic for eight days, and I believed in iron bridges: the day of steel had not yet arrived. From this small beginning grew the Edgar Thomson Steel Works, the Homestead works, the Duquesne works, the blast fur¬ naces and locomotive works at Allegheny, our gas wells in West Virginia and the great ore fields we bought from Mr. Rockefeller. “It is fourteen years since I re¬ tired from business, in pursuance > of my decision to cease accumula¬ tion and begin distribution of sur¬ plus wealth, in which I am still engaged. “In 1888 I published an article in the North American Review which was afterward christened ‘Gospel of Wealth’ by Mr. Gladstone. He commented upon it in The Nineteenth Century. It at¬ tracted attention and many answers were sent to this magazine. I quote you the following extract from the ‘Gospel of Wealth’;— “The Problem of Rich and Poor.” ‘Thus i® the problem of rich and poor to be solved. The l>aw® of accumulation will be left free; the laws of distribution free. Individualism will continue, but the millionnaire will be but a trustee for the poor, entrusted for a season with a great part of t'hie increased wealth of the com¬ munity, hut administering it for the com¬ munity far better than it could or would hav© done for itself. The best minds will thus have reached a stage in the daveio#-, womens rracticat Coafs^^ Three-quarter Length Of smart Wool Mixtures, Cravenette, suitable for storm protection or general wear . Semi-belted, model, perfectly tailored and of superior finish. Specially Priced at 14.50 A very special offering of Women’s Evening Gloves Our direct importation, due October last, and just now received. These gloves, made to our special order, from the finest selected skins, are unusually soft, elastic and very , full at the top. Fastened with peafl buttons of superior quality. WHITE GLACE— 12 button length. Regular Value $2.75. Special at 2,35 WHITE glace— 16 button, length. Regular value $3.50. 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Now 4,40 -^'Zon4v®i £ 19$ Stneet ■ n, 12 Mr. Carnegie, Affable and Witty, Soon Wins Over Hostile Audience Socialistic Element’s Scowls Give Way to Smiles, Then Laughter, and Federal Commission¬ ers, After Trying in Vain to Suppress Confusion, Join in Merriment—Consid- ^yV, ; ers It Tribute When Called “Andy” by Employe. J Mr. Carnegie was escorted to the witness stand directly after the commission began its afternoon session, at, ten minutes past two o’clock. Widespread publicity given to his expected appearance had crowded the room to its capacity with an eager audience, a large proportion of which was composed of socialists, single taxers and followers of the I. W. W. propaganda. The ironmaster bowed to the commission as he mounted the dais. “Take the chair, Mr. Carnegie,’’ said Mr. Walsh affably. The Laird of Skibo did so, and for a mo¬ ment he scanned the faces of his audience, seated in close rows on the floor of the : chamber, raather than those of his in¬ quisitors. As the chairman framed his first stereotyped question, “What is your name?’’ Mr. Carnegie rose and stood, lean¬ ing* slightly forward, with his hands clasped together on the table. As he gave his name and resi¬ dence there was a slight quaver of apparent weakness in the voice, and many commented upon Mr. Carnegie’s evident reduction in weight. Later his tones gained in strength, and before he had been reading his prepared statement more than five minutes the wit¬ ness was throwing his whole spirit into its phrases, and, like a skilled actor, was craftily using ' his mobile countenance and his whole body to emphasize his points as he drove them home. “Of course there is no objection to your standing, if you prefer to do so, Mr. Carnegie,” said the chairman, courteously. I do prefer to stand,” said Mr. Carnegie, am more accustomed to stand while talking, though I am no great orator.” studies the question and rightly appreci¬ ates the great progress made during her time. I agree with her statement, ‘Sane publicity is the cure for most evils in American industrial life.’ “Last, but not least, the testimony on Friday of that unaccountable being, Henry Ford, who declares that he could make every convict in Sing Sing a compe¬ tent, trustworthy laborer in the vineyard. I am not disposed to question anything that this prodigy asserts. Success to him: By all means let us give him a trial. His success here would be no more of a seem¬ ing miracle than his success with the Ford car. “I never bought or sold shares on the Exchange; all my earnings were from manufacturing. If it Were necessary for me to return to that calling I should not consider the problem of labor as at all dif¬ ficult, On the contrary, I enjoyed confer¬ ences with our men. We had one rule- come what may, we would never think of running our works with new men. Able, sober, well behaved workmen such as ours were are not to be picked up on the streets, and we wished no others. We were very particular in regard to drinking—-I am a total abstainer myself. First offence, men were excluded thirty days; Second offence, sixty days; third offence, we parted com¬ pany. We only had one serious disaster with labor; but that was terrible, indeed. I was coaching through the Scottish Highlands on my holiday and did not hear of the lamentable riot at Homestead until days after it occurred. I wired at once that I would take the first steamer home, hut was requested not to come. My chief part¬ ner, Mr. Phipps, in a letter to the New York Herald, January 31, 1904, explains it as follows:— ‘QuestionIt was stated that Mr. Car¬ negie acted in a cowardly manner in not returning to America from Scotland and (being’ present when the strike was in progress at Homestead?’ and dine once a year in our home. They come 'from all parts of the land. Homestead Strike Incident, 4 Audience Not Won Yet. Here the witness for the first time turned upon his auditors that magnetic smile which has made him famous. The socialists and the disciples of all the “isms” did not smile back. He had not yet won them. They were studying him with knitted brows, as entomologists might study some new species with which they had been brought into close contact for the first time. Clearly, Mr. Carnegie’s audience was not much in sympathy with him—not yet. “What is your business?” asked Mr. Walsh. “My business is to do as much good in the world as I can; I have retired from all other business.” The witness then said that, at the re¬ quest of the commisslpn, he had tried to reply to the questions they had sent to him, and, with their permission, he would read his statement. Mr. Carnegie began to read in a clear tone, in which occasion¬ ally there was a quaver. He stood erect, holding his manuscript in the left hand, while he frequently used the right with which to score a forcible gesture, bring¬ ing down his closed fist'vigorously upon the small oak table in front of him when he wished to be especially emphatic. Often he turned about and directly faced the throng Who sat listening from the floor. Then, in some transition of thought, he would swing About and address him¬ self to the semicircle of inquisitors, whose ;yes, for the most part, seemed to be •iveted upon the ironmaster with a sort of tolerant curiosity. Mr. Carnegie’s Statement. Quotes from the Herald. “ ‘Answer by Mr. Phipps:—When Mr. Carnegie heard of the trouble at Home¬ stead he immediately wired (that he would (take the first ship for America, but his partners begged him not to appear, as they were of the opinion that the welfare of the company required that he should not foe in this country at the time,. Now mark this:— They all knew his extreme disposition to always grant the demands of labor, how¬ ever unreasonable. I have never known of any one interested in the business to make any complaint about Mr. Carnegie’s absence at that time, but all partners re¬ joiced that they were permitted to manage the affair in their own way.’ ” \ As Mr. Carnegie said, “Mark this/’ and then read his quotation from the Herald he brought down his fist strongly. Every sign of weakness had now vanished (from his delivery, as (he went on:— “Some of the men at the works cabled me, ‘Kind Master, tell us what you -v—--$> “Takes No Man’s Job.” “ ‘Order, Mr. Edwards, order. Mr. Car¬ negie takes no man’s job.’ “Suppression was impossible. Out camel roars of laughter, and foot stamping, and the victory was won. Wo shook hands,} and I was off on the night train. Money ! is not the foremost or sole object of the better class of workmen. That play upon words with ‘Billy’ Edward did the busi¬ ness.” Mr. Carnegie’s audience indulged in aj ripple of appreciative laughter K for his own laughter was contagious. Then hej grew serious and resumed:— “We began manufacturing with a capi¬ tal of $7,500. My share I borrowed from a! bank in Pittsburg. When superintendent! of the Pennsylvania Railroad I had seen a wooden bridge burn, blocking traffic for eight days,, and I believed in iron bridges; the day of steel had not yet arrived. From this small beginning grew the Edgar Thomson Steel Works, the Homestead works, the Duquesne works, the blast fur¬ naces and locomotive works at Allegheny, our gas wells in West Virginia and the great ore fields we bought from Mr. Rockefeller. “It is fourteen years since I re¬ tired from business, in pursuance of my decision to cease accumula¬ tion and begin distribution of sur- j plus wealth, in which I am still | engaged. “In 1888 I published an article in the) North American Review which was afterward christened ‘Gospel of Wealth’] by Mr. Gladstone. He oommented upon} it in The Nineteenth Century. It at¬ tracted attention and many answers were sent to this magazine. I quote you the following extract from the ‘Gospel of Wealth’:— ’ T "The Problem of Rich and Poor.” “ ‘Thus is the problem of rich and. poor to be solved. The laws of accumulation * 1 will be left free; the laws of distribution free. Individualism will continue, but the- millionnaire will ibe but a trustee for the poor, entrusted for a season with a great part of "the. increased wealth of the com¬ munity, but administering it for the com- know of elsewhere charges $150. “During the last year the students of the institute have earned in their spare •time a total of $291,589.62. “Another feature would, I think, sur¬ prise you, Mr, Chairman. We have a 1 women’s department, educating the young to become themselves educators of others. Each goes through a course of instruction, To Be Called “Andy” Behind 13 munity far better than it could or would l from dishwasher and sweeper to house- S , WiI1 i keeper, and finally, playing -the hostess thu* have reached a Stage la the deveief-j tor l term, receives her guests. Mrs. Gar¬ ment of the race in which it is clearly negie and I always have luncheon with „„„ . .. . ___them, and I assure you we have the re- : seen that there is no mode of disposing eepti(m and attention of the genuine lady, of surplus wealth creditable to thoughtful g u ^ distinguished foreign visitors as and earnest men into whose hands it Baron d’Estoumelle de Constant have flows, save by using it year by year for there and have mot failed to ex- ’ * I press and publish their surprise and Back a Tribute Worth While, Says Man Who Gave Millions Once Employes Begin to Do That, Mr. Carnegie Asserts, You Can Get Along with Them—Dictates Form of Question to Chief Investigator. the general good. “ This day already dawns. Men may ! pleasure. ‘Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the ' die without incurring the pity of their fel- I commission, we invite you to attend , . , . ■ . . next annual meeting, at the end of April, f, lows, still sharers in great business enter- The Presi(i6n t of the United States, when 1 prises from which their capital cannotj president of Princeton University, once! be or has not been withdrawn, and which ! made the opening address and has given a| . . .. . . .. r 0 . conditional promise to open the next cxer- is left chiefly at death for public uses, yet -| c}ges shoul( j conditions permit. I beg you;; the day is not far distant when the man ; to come and insure you proper accommo- >who dies leaving behind him millions of dations in Pittsburg. We will show you available wealth, which were free for him | to administer during life, will pass away j everything as it is for the year round and let you-judge for yourself. “Some were at first apprehensive that 'unwept, unhonored and unsung,” no| 0UJ - workmen would not favor the tech- matter to what use he leaves the dross! 1 nology schools, which teach young men which he cannot take with him. Of such i advanced modes of workmanship. These 1 s these the public verdict will then be:— fears, however, have proved groundless. “The man who dies thus rich dies dis- Will Solve Problem. 'Such, in my opinion, is the true gos¬ pel concerning wealth, obedience to which is destined some day to solve the problem of the rich and the poor and to bring peace on earth:, among men good will.’ ” Complying with the commission’s r« quest, Mr. Carnegie next reviewed his' benefactions, which, it appeared, aggre¬ gate $325,000,000. The witness continued:— “In accordance with this doctrine, my first act upon retiring from business was to give $5,000,000 to the workmen of the Carnegie Steel Company as a parting gift, $4,000,000 for pensions to the men and $1,- 000,000 to maintain the libraries and halls 1 had built for them. I was greatly pleased when later, the United States Steel Cor¬ poration saw fit to duplicate my gift, adding $4,000,000 more to the fund for pen¬ sions. I have just read the following re¬ port of this joint fund with great satis¬ faction:— “ ‘The fourth annual report of the United States. Steel and Carnegie Pension Fund, made public to-day, shows that J since January 1, 1911, when the fund was I established, retired employes of the Steel ; Corporation have received in pensions j $1,575,021.33, For the year 1914 the total disbursement from the pension “The men. are sending their sons to the institute and rejoicing that they are to be advanced and rendered capable of higher scien¬ tific service. This step in advance is indorsed by the unions, and let them be credited therefor. An¬ other proof that labor is fast sup¬ planting prejudice. i| “I predict that many of these pupils are"; to rise to eminence and be a source ofi happiness and pride to their parents. j | “There is another department I had not • supposed it would be necessary to mention, f but consideration has led me to believe that it is much better to make no exception A whatever in replying to your request. Security for Widows’ Funds. “After retiring from business I soon found that the widows of friends who passed away were sorely troubled how best to secure the safety of funds left to them. I volunteered to accept the money of one widow, giving her my note for tne amount and agreeing to pay six per cent a year. The relief she felt was so surprising that I continued doing this as ether dear friends _ w ... _ 7 „ fund passed away until the number of deposl- amounted to $511,967.90, which was a gain tors has now reached 148, with a total of jover the previous year of $89,152.76, and a $8,137,394.20 in deposits. gain over 1912 of $89,152.76, and a gain of “I do not know of any service to widows ; $230,510.53 over the first year of the fund’s which brings such relief. It relieves the 'existence. 4 .. .. .. ... - -**«■■ \ “‘The Pittsburg district leads in the amount of money paid out to the aged and infirm former employes of the various sub¬ widow of doubt about the security of the fund upon which she is able to live in com¬ fort. Of course, the deposits and security are regularly examined by a representative sidiary companies. To retired mill opera-, ^ gtate Department of Banking. Six- tives in the Pittsburg and Valley districts: _ er cen t j s a higher rate than banks would! fhA <21.1 m rvf $999 CKC 90 rvsro« .nnU rfurino- * the sum of $222,656.33 was paid during the year, and to this may be added the sum paid to the coke workers in the fields adjacent to Pittsburg, which; amounted to $59,995.66, making the total for the mills and mines in the district $283,651.99. “ ‘Pensioners in Cleveland and its vicinity received approximately $50,000. In the j Chicago district the amount distributed to former mill workers was $30,157.8^. In New England retired employes of the Worcester (Mass.) plants received $39,- 855.56. “ There are now 2,521 beneficiaries of the fund. During the year 612 pensioners were added and 183 died. The average pensions of the cases added were $20.40 a month, the average age of the pensioners I'being 63.33 years and the average term of the service 2$.76 years. Under the rules of the fund not less than $12 nor more than j $100 a month is ’paid.” “The Hero Fund which I was privileged to found has always Interested me most f deeply, perhaps because the idea came to | me through personal experience. Mr. J Taylor, who was formerly superintendent of a coal mine near Pittsburg, heard that an accident had occurred and immediately drove to the mine and called for volun¬ teers to descend with him to the rescue of those- below. A number promptly re¬ sponded and many were saved, but Mr. ; Taylor, the volunteer hero, lost his life.. | Here was one of the true heroes of -civiliza- j tion, who save and serve their fellows. ! The heroes of barbarism wound and slay j theirs. “I could not rest until I had founded I hero funds, with a total capital of $11,- j 1790,000. The report of the annual meet¬ ing held at Pittsburg on January 20 shows awards given to forty heroes or their wives and families, with a total of; 1 1,027 awards since the fund began opera¬ tions, Every case is most carefully in¬ vestigated. We require absolute certainty and proof given by witnesses. We want no bogus heroes.. We find the Mayors and leading citizens of all communities most lanxious to aid us to obtain such proof. ‘‘The Carnegie Institute of - Pittsburg, ! ‘one of the greatest gifts I have made, has ' not been mentioned. It has cost so far ; $24,000,000 and has more than three thou¬ sand students, from forty-two States, - 1,288 of whom. are men. from the industries, . j trying to improve their conditions. ! “The fees are only -nominal, averaging |j $25 a year,' which is one-fifth to one-tenth 1 what is usually charged. The cheapest we pay, but I feel quit© justified In being liberal. T confess to being greatly surprised to learn within the last few days that I have: no less than 481 pensioners upon my list, receiving a total of $214,954.56 a year. “These pensions are continued to the; widows. This fund also has been kept secret hitherto, but your call for state¬ ment of all foundations seems to embrace this. \ “Shakespeare has tersely put the solution of wealth and poverty before us in these words:—‘So dis¬ tribution should undo excess and j each man have enough.’ The trend is in this direction in our day, hut its fruition may mean centuries of progress, slow but sure, for all grows better. “Th© complete statement up to the close otf last year show® that the total of our foundations and gifts amount to $824,657,399. The work still goes bravely on, thanks to the wise management of the able and will¬ ing trustees, and also of the employe®, who often assure me th'at it is labor in which they delight. I am indeed a most fortunate man and think myself in nothing else so happy as in a soul remembering my dear friends, to whom I owe so much. “Gentlemen, we have six foundations, but I understand that three only of these have been called upon to answer ques¬ tions. If at any time you wish to call the beads of the other foundations, or ask further questions, they will be most happy to respond. We have nothing to conceal.” As Mr. Carnegie laid down his manu¬ script he stood beaming upon the mem¬ bers of the federal commission like a ver¬ itable Santa Claus. Mr. Walsh and the : Commissioners who represent organized •abor still eyed him coldly, but many in the audience already showed a more sym¬ pathetic attitude, for they had 'laughed outright with the speaker a dozen times— never, however, without eliciting from the chairman his caustic warning that there must be no audible expressions of approval or disapproval, under penalty of clearing the room. Mr. Carnegie pow resumed his chair, leaned forward, rested Ms elbows on the table, knitted his fingers together and fixed a thoughtful gaze upon Mr. Walsh. The examiner remarked soothingly:— “No’w, just a few questions, Mr. Carnegie, for the commission is not going to detain you very long.” Mr. Carnegie again beamed acquiescence and nodded good naturedly, as though to say, “Just go as far as you like.” Mr. Walsh “wound up” for his first question, and when he delivered it straight over the plate it ran like this :— “What do you believe to be the respon¬ sibility of directors of industrial corpora¬ tions for the labor conditions prevailing • in their plants? It has been testified here that directors in these concentrated in- dustries, as they have been called, receive reports upon the financial conditions, in¬ spections of machinery,' comparison of production, sales and) such matters that. In yo'uir opinion should they also not receive as definite and frequent reports upon labor conditions?” “I think it would be well,” replied the ironmaster, “i think tiiey would appre¬ ciate it. but I think if I were a director and I heard of no complaints, nothing going on, I would take it for granted that everything was right. It' would be when notice was served that trouible had been created that then I should feel it my duty as a director to go down and consult with the others.” “Well, do you not believe, in view of the number of industrial disturbances” among directors of corporations at the present time?” Well, it is so long since I was a director —you must remember I have been out of business for fifteen years. I think, how¬ ever, that .the duty there would devolve upon the president of the institution, and that if there is trouble with labor the nat¬ ural recourse would be to call the Board together and consult. I go entirely' with you there. But at the same time I could not blame a gentleman who was a director in one of these institutions who had not heard of anything. You must bring knowl¬ edge home to him.” “What do you say as to the desirability and right of workmen to form organiza¬ tions of their own for what they believe to be their mutual protection and benefit?” “Why, I should be delighted to hear from every such organization.” Again the Daird of Skibo’s face was radiant. ‘Do you believe in the principle of col¬ lective bargaining, or the so-called right of men to bargain collectively with their employers?” asked the examiner. Mr. Carnegie’s eyes were twinkling with the light of pleasant retrospection as he answered:—“Why, yes; I had great times. I never objected—and the more I got on the committee of men.the better I liked it.” “Your experience then has been, I take it from your answer and from that you have read from your paper, a pleasant ex¬ perience rather than otherwise?” “Why, I never enjoyed myself so much— I tell you I look back to the old days— that is the chief joy I have.” “I burst out laughing many a I time when I think of McLuckie, j or ‘Billy’ Edwards catching him j there, ‘You take my job.’ That j was the cleverest thing I ever did | —‘Order, Mr. Edwards; order. Mr. j Carnegie takes no man’s job!’ ” “You never felt, Mr. Carnegie, that you could not confer with any men represent¬ ing an organization of workmen that came a businesslike and respectable manner to confer with yen?” “I was only too glad when the workmen oarne. I felt pretty sure that if they came to consult with me we would part all right.” Mr. Carnegie’s canny eyes nar¬ rowed almost into a knowing wink. The audience now smiled with him. “And did you find that it was usually a means of establishing peace to so deal with your workmen?” Dictates Form of Question, "My friend, now,” said Mr. Carnegie, in¬ terrupting the examiner, “will you please put your question in another way? When you say, ‘Do ypu not believe,’ that would imply that you would have me give ac¬ quiescence to your view, and I want to give my own. Be kind enough to say ‘Do you?’ and so ask ihe.” A peal of laughter greeted this sally by the smiling witness, and Mr;; Walsh, discomfited, exclaimed:— "We must have perfect order, because I want to have a -connected statement here.” Then the examiner restated his question, complying with Mr. Carnegie’s request:— “Should a director so keep himself ad¬ vised in view of -the recurring disturb¬ ances of labor in the large industries, as to the condition of labor, the wages paid, the hours of labor, the conditions sur¬ rounding the labor, so that he might have his voice, itt averting trouble?” “I. certainly toelie-ve he should look into it, should give it attention, always suppos¬ ing he has been apprised of the difficulty. If everything is running well the president and officers do -not apprise him of trouble. He might go on in perfect innocence of there -being any difficulty. But' if he is apprised then I think it would be his duty a® a director to go and do the best he could to (harmonize things.” "-Should*, ‘the director or the Board of Directors establish some system of reports by which they would be constantly ap¬ prised -of conditions that might lead- to in¬ dustrial strife at any time?” “I think it -would be well,” replied the witness. “I -think it would be a great im¬ provement,”, “That does not seem -to b© the custom ectu-cauonai institutions—have you found any persons or Institutions which seemed, to alter their avowed principles or previous methods of procedure in order to secure your other, gifts?” “No; I cannot remember any such thing. When you get a lot o-f able, good men, ca¬ pable of making their fellows’ conditions better, of elevating the -world and standing for all that is refined ©gld pure and noble, you can always depend upon such -men. And it would be as great a miracle that there should be a -bad man in that line as that there should be a Judas I^qariot among the Apostles.” “Has your attention ever been called to an apprehension that these large founda¬ tions were a possible menace to American Men Called Him “Andy.” ‘Undoubtedly; I knew them by name, and I delighted in it. And, you see, behind my back they always called me ‘Andy.’ I liked that; I would rather have had it than ‘Andrew’ or ‘Mr. Carnegie.’ There, is no sympathy about that But once you have your men call? you ‘Andy’ you can get along with them,” At this point the unfailing good tmmor of “The Star-Spangled Scotchman” had become positively irresistible. The six hundred persons who now Crowded the room, many of them standing and eagerly straining to -catch every word, let them¬ selves go in a roar of merriment. For the first time the serious faced chairman and his -colleagues relaxed and joined un- ; restrainedly in the laughter. Mr. Car¬ negie had captured the house. With equal good nature Mr. Walsh re¬ marked ' ‘Mr. Carnegie, we had little difficulty in restraining the audience until you came.” “Oh, that’s all right,” chuckled the wit¬ ness, as though quite willing to repudiate any need of an apology. “But we must have -order,” added the chairman, feebly. “Why, I congratulate you up6n your audience,” said Mr. Carnegie, permitting his eye to rest upon the front rows, which ' were completely filled -with attentive and II highly entertained women listeners. Then he beamed upon the women and they re¬ turned his cherubic smiles as the iron¬ master went on:— “Do you know, one of the greatest tri¬ umphs of this -age is the elevation of wom¬ en?” An outburst of applause greeted this sentiment and the women socialists were now gazing at the little steel king like the maidens in “Patience” gaze upon Bunthorne. Mr. Carnegie had now captured the meeting completely, and ■ jMever had the.. slightest indication of anything of that sort.” “Now we are going to excuse you per¬ manently,’ Mr. Carnegie, and thank you very much for what you have told us.” - “The thanks are reciprocated. I have not spent a more agreeable afternoon, I cannot tell you when. Do not forget to come to Pittsburg if you want to see something there worth while.” “We are going to hold a hearing in Pittsburg,” said Mr. Walsh cordially. It had almost become a love feast now. ' “Oh, 1 I gee. I am very glad. I thank you very much,” continued Mr. Carnegie, and -then the affable ironmaster stepped from behind his,table, and; shook hands ■ith each of the federal inquisitors. He *s*l> amt, (them and they were his. T - 14 r - CARNEGIE’S FAITH IN COOPERATION tf-rAI Ifdt a Bad Epitaph, When I heard, this I suggested to my friend "Van Dyke that it wouldn’t be a bad. epitaph to grace one’s tombstone. If It ever did I hoped there would be no long blank between the .ds. Each letter should be put down to give McLuckie’s proper expression. When I talked to the Homestead rol¬ lers upon my- return I told them my partners had offered liberal terms and I could not have offer ed more. One roller said: “Oh, Mr. Carnegie, it wasn’t a question of dollars! The hoys would have . let :■ you , kick them, and they \\* Federal Board Capital Labor Will Some Day Rank as One. and In a story telling vein, illuminated here and there with touches of humor, Andrew Carnegie read a statement to the United States Commission on Industrial Relations at its hear¬ ing to-day in the Metropolitan Life building. When Mr. Carnegie mounted' the platform at 2:10 oeloek this afternoon he took a position bach of the little stand to Hhe right of the commission of inquiry and leaned on it rather heavily. He started to speak, and his voice was very weak. Mny observers were amazed by the extent to which, he has aged in the last few months. Chairman Walsh asked Mr. Carnegie to take a seat behind the stand in the chair placed for witnesses, and Mr. Carnegie did so, and preceded with his statement under some difficulty. The chairman then perceived the situation, and leaned forward to suggest, “There is ho objection to your standing, Mr. Carnegie, if you prefer.” ; “I do prefer to stand,” said the iron¬ master. “X am more acustomed to talk standing up, though I’m not much of an orator.” 'When asked, to name his ocupatipn Mr. Carnegie said: “My business is to do all the good I can for mankind. I ! have retired from active business.” Mr. Carnegie’s reading; of bis type- written statement followed. R consisted in part -of the. Laird ' of fSkiitiQ’s .actions during the Homestead s&tike of twelve years ago. At the, time Mr. Carnegie was accused of ■ “Cowardly” conduct by Coaching through the Scottish Higli- j. lands on. a holiday instead of returning ! to this country and', helping settle the labor troubles in the Homestead I!oiling Mills. have one. rule, come what may, we would never think: of running our works with new men. Able, sober, well-behaved workmen such as ours were, are ■not to be picked up on the streets, and We wished no others! , We were very particular in regard to drinking: First offence, men were excluded thirty days; second offence, sixty days; third of¬ fence, we parted company. The Homestead Riot. We have only had one serious disaster With labor; but that was terrible In- Wfe-ed. I Was coaching through th® 0oot- jtish Highlands on my holiday and did not hear of .the lamentable, riot at Homestead until days after it occurred. T wired at once that .1 would take the 'first steamer home, but was, requested hot to come. My chief partner, Mr. !Phipps, in a letter to the New York Ur raid, Jan. 30, 1904, explains it as May I trouble you with one example of .the working! of our system? Upon One of my visits to Pittsburg I met the men who wished a conference. They asked that payments be made every two weeks instead of monthly, as the Penn¬ sylvania Railroad employees were then paid. One named Johnny Edwards, a clever workman and fine fellow, rose to state their case. He said that if they were paid semi-monthly It would be equal to a rise in their wages. He and his wife visited Pittsburg the last Sat¬ urday in each month and bought a full month’s food supply, thereby saving one- third on shop prices near the works. “Why > don’t other workmen do the' same?” X; asked. Tie replied: “Few of yournnen can afford to buy a month in advance. . My Wife and I can.” Here was 1 an opening; I decided it would be semi-monthly payments there¬ after, and. so it was. 1 Then Edwards said: “There is another unfair charge; the coal dealers here charge almost double for coal in smail quantities.” Coal at Cost. Quotes From Fetter. IMr Carnegie quoted from a letter written by liis “chief partner,” Heniry Phipps, under date' of Jan. 30, 1904, giving his reasons for remaining ‘ abroad. Mr. Carnegie then told how “some i cf the men in the' plant, cabled him, j. ‘Kind Master, tell’ us what, to do and ! we will do it for you.’ But it was too i late.” He cited several incidents and I anecdotes of the strike which have never before been made public. One of ; them, ended with the eulogy “that wag ! damned white of' Andy,” which Mr. Carnegie suggests as hot a toad epi- I taph to grace one’s tombstone. The profit-sharing schemes initiated ' in the plants of the United States Steel Corporation were praised by Mr. ; Carnegie as . the mosit advanced step in solving the difficulties between cap¬ ital and labor. He paid tribute to Judge Gary, the present head of the ! Steel Corporation, for this plan where¬ by employees acquire stock and de¬ clared that capital a.nd labor would •' one day rank as one “notwithstanding the; hesitation to cooperate shown by some labor champions.” There was not a word of universal j 1 peace or international disarming. -Here is Mr. Carnegie’s statement: | I have read with deep interest the testimony given before you by many, millionaires, Messrs. . Schiff, Belmont,' Guggenheim, Perkins, Gary, and not¬ ably Miss Tarbell, who though not a millionaire certainly deserves to be; | she seems to have a firm grasp upon the! j problem and proves herself ofie who i studies -the question and , rightly appre-j! ; elates the great progress made during | her time. I agree with her statement. ;i “Sane publicity is the cure for most ] evils in American industrial life.” Last, | but.’hot' least, thetestimony -on Friday s of tjiat unaccountable being, Henry \ Ford, who declares that ho' could make every convict in Sing Sing a competent, trustworthy laborer in the vineyard. I am not disposed to question anything ' that Vies prodigy asserts. Success to “him: By all means let us give him a trial, His success here would be no i more of a seeming 'miracle than his ! success with the: Ford car. J. mover boughf ,or sold shares on the exchange; all, my ymfiggs' Wer.ewfpom manufacturing. if it were , necessary fur me to return to that calling I should not consider the problem of labor, as ; at all difficult. On the. contrary;.. I. &n~ ioytH conferences...w 1tii our men,', We i “Indeed,” I .said, “hereafter our work-, men get their coal at the exact whole¬ sale coast to us, not one cent of profit.” ! ' “And,” said Edwards, “we don’t want i to be too troublesome, but everything we buy here is far dearer than in Pitts- burg.” “Well,” I replied, ,“why not start a-.shop of your own? Rent one on Main street, and we shall pay the rent, or- ! ganize and run it, and charge our work-' men just enough to pay your way,” and i this was done, hut sorry to say, the shop djd' not prove successful, as retailers re¬ duced, prices. -A-victory! You have here an illustration of the disadvantages workmen are often com¬ pelled to. bear. There was another fea¬ ture. We offered our men 6 per cent, upqn all the savings left with us, pay¬ able on demand. And here let me con- gratulate Judge Gary and ' his board „„„ • , upon the greatest step yet taken. When Carnegie acted in a cowardly man - n J workmen were ma( j 6 shareholders they not_ returning to Aimerica^from^^ ^ | were’sold shares in the; company upon “Question—‘It stated, that Mr. j and- being ■ present when the strike in progress at Homestead.’ i; “Answer toy Mr. Phipps—When Mr. I Carnegie heard of the trouble at Home¬ stead he immediately wired that he Would lake-.tile first ship for America, but his partners begged him not to ap¬ pear;ds they were of the- opinion that the welfare of the company required that he should not be in this country at the- time. They all knew his extreme disposition to always grant the demands of labor; however unreasonable. I have never known of anyone interested in the business to make any complaint about Mr. Carnegie’s absence at that time, ■but all partners 'rejoiced that they were i permitted to manage the affair in their own way.? _, , Some of the men at the works cabled | me: “Kind master, tell us what you I want : us to do .and we Will do it for You.” It was too-late. I supposed from Mr. Phipps’s cable 1 l despatch that all Was settled and de¬ cided it was best to conform to my parthlM • wishes. My .partners, made a. most generous offer to the workmen. The new Homestead Rolling Mills in¬ creased product 60 per cent, over the old. The rollers were offered 30 per I Cent, advance in wages, one-half of the total gain. I would not have done more. The error was in trying to start with I new men. against our rule. But here I again, I understand the Governor of the I State, with troops at Pittsburg, wished | the law vindicated. With this exception we never had ,a grave disaster. very liberal basis and guarded' against loss. I consider this the greatest of all steps forward yet- taken for making workmen and capitalists fellow work¬ men ■ indeed, pulling and owning the same boat’. This cannot fail to prove highly profitable- to both ; far beyond the pecuniary advantage I esteem the fellow partnership which makes Judge Gary, Mr. Darrell, Mr. Dinkey and other high officials fellow partners with their work- stood prepared to take the consequences, and I never broke contracts. Now, Mr! Kelly, you have signed that treaty, and you. can break it, but the grass will grow over these works before we will have such men in our employ, it will be heralded through the world a-s a dis¬ grace to labor. You wished your an¬ swer at 4 o’clock, it is now a little after 3, but you have your answer. Go!” A little later some one who wats coming in as they were passing out and who had got in the crowd said that a fine looking fellow had pushed across the hall a.nd said to Kelly: “There is to be no damned monkeying around these works.” Some of the men being curious to know what would be the re- .suft had gathered at the blast furnaces. To their inquiries Kelly replied, “Get to Work, you spalpeens'; the little boss just hit from the shoulder,” There , was no strike and that is the best service I ever rendered to American labor, so that although I was inclined to yield to labor, I drew the line at con-' tract breaking. This was the first time I had found labor ready to break a con¬ tract, and it was the last; We once proposed*-making a change in the distribution—not in the amount— of wages among the different • depart¬ ments of the steel nail mills as new ma¬ chinery was introduced. The confer¬ ences were held in Pittsburg.'After .Several -days’ consideration, I had: to leave for New York by the night train. The men in the mills asked by telegraph if I could meet them'' iff' our office in the afternoon. I answered “Yes.” They came to the city and were seated in the board room. Mf. Edwards, Who waS again spokesman, began : “Mr. Carnegie, we agree that there is a sufficient sum proposed for our total work, but we'think it is not wisely di¬ vided. Now, Mr. Carnegie, you take my job”- “Order, Mr. Edwards, order, Mr. Carnegie takes no man’s job.” Suppression was impossible, out came roars of laughter, and foot stamping and the victory was, won. We, shook hands', and I was off on the night train. Money is not the foremost or sole object •of the better class of workmen. That play upon words with Billy Edwards did the business. Beginnings of Business. Sees Steady Progress. >yed.. eoiuefceljc!' “Folly His Best Virtue.” One or two partners oul of our forty may, as Mr; Phipps states, sometimes consider me foolish “in always yielding to labor,” While l am satisfied that for every dollar so Spent we had -indirectly ample and more than ample reward. Frankly I consider that folly whs one of my best virtues. ' The workmen that we had, sober, well-behaving men as they, were and are to-day. ' are the most profitable of all, and many of them rose to permanent, high Salaries, and, not a few to part¬ nership. Pf which wo had not less than forty odd, Flip are organized to-day as. the Carnegie veterans and dine once a year,In our home. They come from all parts' of the land'. , , „ „ ... ' ; You might,like to hear the following incident connected with the Homestead strike : 7““:“ ‘ "7. The 1 Governor, of Pennsylvania, I un¬ derstand, wished certain of our workers arrested for , riot and bound over for trial. Consequently some of these dis¬ appeared, among them the Burgess of Homestead.- Some time afterward my friend, Prof. Van Dyke of Rutgers Col¬ lege was ordered to California for his health. Upon his return he told me that he had met the ex-Burgess working as a laborer in a Mexican mine at 'Sonora. I asked him to offer McLuckie any help he might need, and upon bis return to the West he, did so. Meanwhile Me- Luc.kie had got a position with the (So¬ nora Railway, 'driving wells, and was succeeding admirably. The professor said : “You don’t know whose money L was told to help you with.” He said that he had no idea. .“Well, it was Mf. ' Carnegie’s.” Then,'came the slow, earn¬ est response: “That was damned white of Andy,” ’ All this reveals steady progress up¬ ward and onward to the benefit of both laboi; and capital, which will some day rank as one, notwithstanding the hesi¬ tation to cooperate shown by some labor champions who, are. still.. extremists and do capitalists injustice, but this must steadily fade away. As I told the great audience at Homestead upon my first visit after the strike, we shall one day all recognize capital, labor and business ability as a three legged stool, each necessary for the other, neither first, second nor third in rank, all equal. Lest my summing up may seem one¬ sided, I will give a, proof of my effort to hold the scales equal' between capital and labor. Only once have I had ex¬ perience of a determined effort to com¬ mit wrong upon the part of labor. It is true that the men at the Edgar Thomp¬ son blast furnaces sent in a written de¬ mand for an immediate advance lof Wages which, if refused, would end in the furnaces being left unfilled. Upon receiving a telegram to this effect I took a night train from New York and got off at the works next morning. I found a long train of our empty box cars ready to house new workmen if necessary. I directed these to be pulled out of the yard and sent away, stating that three would be no stirke, and noti¬ fying the leaders of each of the three different divisions of labor to appear as so'ori as practicable that I might consult with them. The leader of each depart¬ ment with one or two aides arrived. We assembled in the committee room. I addressed the chairman of the commit¬ tee of the converting works first: “Mr. chairman, have we an agreement 'With; you?” We began* manufacturing with a capi - tal of $7,500 ; my share I borrowed from a bank in Pittsburg. When superin¬ tendent of the Pennsylvania Railroad I had seen a wooden bridge bum, block¬ ing traffic for eight days, and I be¬ lieved in iron bridges; the day of steel had not yet arrived. From this small beginning grew the Edgar Thomson steel works, Homestead works, Du- quesne works, the blast furnaces andl lo¬ comotive works at Allegheny, our gas wells in West Virginia and the great ore fields we bought from Mrs Rocke¬ feller. It is fourteen years since I retired from business in pursuance of my de¬ cision to cease accumulation and ‘begin distribution of surplus wealth,' in which I am still engaged. In 1888 I published an article in the North American Re¬ view, which was afterward christened “Gospel of Wealth,” by Mr. Gladstone. He commented upon it in The Nine¬ teenth Century. It attracted attention and many answers were sent to “his magazine. I quote you the following extract from the “Gospel of Wealth” : of Rich and Pool'.” Stood by Agreement. The answer came, “You have, and you haven’t enough money to make us break, it!” “There speaks the true American workman/’ I exclaimed. Addressing the’- rolling mill chairman, I asked the same question and the reply s to the same effect. I then ad¬ dressed Mr. Kelly, the chairman of the furnace committee, who had presented this demand. “Mr. Kelly, have you an agreement with our company?” He skid that an agreement was pre¬ sented and he bad signed it and supposed it was all right. Just then the irrepres¬ sible Capt. Jones broke in, “Mr. Kelly, you know I read all of it to you!” “Silence, captain, Mr. Kelly can speak ;fOr himself. I receive many communi¬ cations and documents which 3\ haven’t time to-read. If they were of a formal nature I have sometimes signejd docu¬ ments without giving them caifeful- at¬ tention, but Mr. Kelly, I have always “The Problem “Thus is the ploblem of rich and poor to be solved. The laws of accumulation will be left free; the laws of distribu¬ tion free. Individualism will continue, but the millionaire will be but a trustee for-the poor, intrusted for a season with a great part of the increased wealth of the community, but administering it for the community far better than it could or would have done for itself. The best minds Will thus have reached a stage in the development of the race in which it is clearly seen that there is no mode of disposing of surplus wealth creditable to thoughtful and earnest men into 'Whose hands it flows, Save by using it year by I year for the general good. This day j already dawns. Men may die without | incurring the pity of their fellows, still i sharers in great, business enterprises frOm which their capital cannot be, or has not been, withdrawn, and which is left chiefly at death for public uses, yet the flay is not far distant when the man who dies leaving behind him millions of available Wealth, which, were free for him to administer during life, will pass away ‘unwept, unhonored and : unsung,’ no matter to What pse he leaves I the dross which he cannot take with him. Of such as these the public ver¬ dict will then be, The man who dies thus rich dies disgraced.’ Such, in my opinion, is the true gos¬ pel concerning wealth, obedience to which is destined some day to Solve the problem of the rich and the poor, and to bring ‘peace on earth, among men gpod will.’” _ “In accordance with this doctrine, my first act upon retiring from business was to give $5,000,000 to the workmen of the Carnegie Steel Company as a parting gift, $4,000,000 for pensions to the men and $1,000,000 to maintain the libraries and halls I had built for them. I was greatly pleased when later the United States Steel Corporation saw fit to duplicate my gift, adding $4,000,000 more to the fund for pensions. I have just read the following report iof this joint fund with great satisfaction. Amount Paid in Pensions. “The fourth annual report of the i; United States Steel and Carnegie Pen- j sion Fund made public to-day shows that since Jan. 1, 1911, when the fund was established, retired employees of the Steel Corporation have received m ! pensions $1,575,021.83. For the year 1914 the total disbursement from the pension I fund amounted to $511,967.90, which wa^ a gain over the previous year of $89,- 152.76, and a gain of $230,510.53 over the first year of the fund’s existence. “The Pittsburg district leads in the j amount of money paid out to the aged and infirm former employees of the | various subsidiary companies. To re¬ tired mill operatives in the Pittsburg and valley districts the sum of $222,- i 656.33 was paid during the year, and : to this may be added the sum paid to the coke, workers in the fields adja- i cent to Pittsburg, whPch amounted to $59,995.66, making the total for t'h® [ mills and mines in the district $283,- 651.99. “Pensioners in Cleveland and its vicinity received approximately $50,000. In the Chicago district the amount dis¬ tributed to former mill workers was $30jl57.86. In New England retired employees of the Worcester, Mass,, plants received $39,855.56. “There . are now 2,521 beneficiaries of the , fund. During the "year 612 pen¬ sioners Were added and 183 died. The average pension*! of the cases added were $20.40 a month, the average ago the pensions being 63.33 years and the average term of the service, 28.73 years: Under the rules of the fund not less than $12 nor more than $100 per month ; is paid.” Interest in Hero Fund. The Hero Fund, which I was priv¬ ileged to found, has always interested me most deeply, perhaps: because, the idea came to me through personal ex¬ perience. Mr. Taylor, who was formerly superintendent of a coal mine near Pittsburg, heard that an accident had occurred and' immediately drove to the mine, called for volunteers to descend with him to the rescue of - those below. A number promptly responded and many were saved, but Mr. Taylior, the volun¬ teer here, lost his life. Here was the true hero of civilization who saves and serves his fellows. The heroes of bar¬ barism wound and slay theirs. I could not rest until I had founded hero funds with a total capital of $11,’- 790,000. The report of the annual meet¬ ings held at Pittsburg on Jan. 20 shows awards given to forty heroes dr their Wives and families, with a total of 1,027 awards since the fund began op¬ erations. Every case is most carefully investigated. We require absolute cer¬ tainty and proof given by witnesses. We find the mayors and leading citi¬ zens bf all communities most anxious to aid us to obtain such proof. The Carnegie Institute of Pittsburg, one of the greatest gifts I have made, has not been mentioned. It has cost so far $24,000,000 and has over three thousand students, from forty-two States, 1,288 of whom are men from the industries, trying to improve their condition. The fees are only nominal, averaging $25 a year, which is one-fifth to one- tenth what is usually charged. The cheapest we know of elsewhere charges $150. During the past year the students of the Institute have earned in their spare time a total of $’291,589.62. Have Women’s Department. Another feature would, I think, sur¬ prise you. We haVe a women’s de¬ partment, educating the young to be¬ come, themselves, educators of others. Each goes through a course of instruc¬ tion, from dishwasher and sweeper to housekeeper, and finally, playing the hostess for a term, receives her guests. Mrs. Carnegie and I always have lunch¬ eon With them, and I assure you we [ have the reception and attention of the genuine lady. Such distinguished for- i eign visitors' as Baron d’Estournelle de ! Constant have been there and have not failed to express and publish their sur¬ prise and pleasure. Mr, Chairman, and gentlemen of the I commission, we invite you to attend our next annual meeting at the end of April. The President of the United States, when ! president of Princeton University, once ji made the opening address, and has given i : a conditional promise to open the next ; exercises should conditions permit. I ii j beg you to come, and insure you proper Ij I accommodation in Pittsburg. We will j j show you everything as it is for the ji year round and let you judge for your- ; self. j Some were at first apprehensive that! our workmen would not favor the tech- j| nology schools, which teach young men i! advanced modes of workmanship. These I 1 fears, however, have proved groundless. | The men are sending their sons to the Institute and rejoicing that they are to | he advanced and rendered capable ofij higher scientific service. This step in p. advance is indorsed by the unions, and j! let them be credited therefor. Another Ji proof that Labor is fast supplanting I ‘prejudice! I predict that many of these l| .pupils are to rise to -eminence and be a j source of happiness and pride to their l| parents. • There is another department I had not 1 supposed it would he necessary to men- | tion, but consideration has led me to believe that it is much better to make j: no exception whatever. Care for Widows’ Funds, j After retiring, from business I soon.! j found that the widows of friends who .passed away wore sorely . troubled how I best' to secure , the -safety of funds left i to them. J volunteered to accept: the j money of one widow, giving her my note j for the amount and agreeing to pay 6 j per cent, a year. The relief she felt was so surprising that I continued doing this as other dear friends passed away, un¬ til the number of depositors has now reached 148 with a total of $3,137,394.20 in deposits. I do not know of any serv¬ ice to widows which brings such relief. It relieves the widow of doubt about the security of the fund upon which she is able to live in comfort. Of course, the ; deposits and security are regularly ex- ;j amined by-a representative-Of the State Department of Banking. Six per cent. ; I is a higher rate than banks .would pay, | ; but I feel quite justified in being liberal.’ j I confess to being greatly surprised i to learn within the past few days that I have no less than 481 pensioners upon -my-list, receiving a total of $214,954 56 a year. These pensions aye continued to the widows. This fund has also been kept secret hitherto, but your call for a state¬ ment of all foundations seems to em¬ brace this. Shakespeare has tersely put the solu¬ tion of wealth and poverty before us in these words: “So distribution should undo excess and each: -man have enough.” The trend is in this (direction in our day. but its fruition may mean centuries of progress, slow but sure, for all grows better. The complete statement u,p to the close of last year shows that the total of our foundations and gifts amount to $324,657,399. The work still goes bravely on, thanks to the wise manage¬ ment of the able and willing trustees, and ! also of the employees, who often assure me that it is labor in which they delight. I am indeed a m-ost fortunate man, and think myself in nothing else so happy as in a soul remembering my dear friends, to whom I owe so much. Gentlemen, we have six foundations. : but I understand that three only of these have been called upon -to answer questions. If at any time you wish to call the heads of the other founda¬ tions, or ask further questions, they will be most happy -to respond. We have nothing to conceal! 0/vOA- The Standard Oil Founder and Andrew Carnegie Witnesses Before the U. S. Commission on ‘ industrialUnrest;’’ Carnegie Claims Greater Gifts to the Public Than Rockefeller. BOTH DEFEND FOUNDATIONS IN SERVICE OF THEIR ‘FELLOW MEN'!’ Steel Master Calls “Capital. Labor and Business Ability a Three-Legged Stool—All Equal.” "‘Steady Work at GrOod Wages” Oil Man’s 1 Ideal—Gifts Aggregate Nearly $600,000,000. T HE two richest men in the world testified in this city yesterday before the Federal Commission inquiring into ’'causes for industrial unrest. ” ■ . The first of these, Andrew Carnegie, nimbly mounted to the witness chair when called. He wore a neat fitting, careful Im¬ pressed cutaway suit of black, with, a high Piccadilly collar and black bow- tie. His only jewel was a diamond stud in bis shirt- front. His broad-toed laced boots were freshly shined, .and he revealed, when he hitched his trousers .before sitting down, a patch of white socks. His snow-white hair was tousled, but the;white beard had been carefully trimmed.^ There w^sa of -tiis^oundl. full; wrinkled face. His trfes twinkled through a pair of steel- rimmed spectacles. Turning to the great crowd of spectators, he smiled benevo¬ lently. He carried in his hand a folded manuscript. Mr. Carnegie was' a - willing witness and was in great good humor, lie stood throughout'the reading of his formal statement. His voice was clear and firm. He gesticulated frequently, aud pounded the table in fropt of him to emphasize 1 ROCKEFELLER MAKES A SHRINKING ENTRY. The laughter following his final reply L. when a rear door near the stage opened and a Aa 1 i- dered, angular man slipped modestly,, almost shrinkingly, into the room. He was the very opposite of the self-confident," debonair, happy Carnegie. He wa£ John D. Rockefeller. His long, clean-shaven face was slightly pallid. His lips were tight!v compressed. His eyes swept rapidly over the ’ room • and' finally lighted upon the seven -commissioners, to whom he bowed deferentially. Mr. Rockefeller was grave, almost sad, where Mr. Carnegie had been vivacious and “chipper.'’ 1 He did not smile once throughout his three-quarters of an hour on the witness stand.- He remained seated. His voice was nervous at the start' but. gained in volume as he proceeded. His hands trembled slightly' and he had difficulty ail through in keeping his gold-rimmed glasses on his nose. He wore a loose gray tweed sack suit, a high lay-down collar, a black four-in-hand tie, a green scarf pin, | a black and white striped shirt and : no jewelry dr rings. His shoes were j black, laced, with heavy protruding cork soles. He was stately and deferential where Mr. Carnegie had been genial! and chummy. He was slow, delib¬ erate, and weighed his every word. By actual count, Mr. Rockefeller's answers were given at the rate of sixty words per minut®. He was heard with intense silaiace, CARN-EGI-E GIVES HIS BUSINESS AS “DOING GOOD." On taking the stand Mr. Carnegie gave his name and hi^ address in a crisp voice, and when asked his busi¬ ness replied: _ , “ijy business fsj to.’do as; smack good *« the world as I. can. Tve retired from other business,” . An instant later he bounded up* smiling broadly. "I’ve prepared a statement, Mr. Chairman," he said, “following the ex¬ ample of the other gentlemen who have appeared before! you, and I re¬ quest permission to read it." “Please do,” said Mr. Walsh, and as thb ironmaster was about to reseat himself the chairman of the commis¬ sion continued: “You may stand if you desire.” “I believ I will/ responded Car¬ negie. “I like to stand' X am not much of an orator, hut X like t® foe able to stand and face the people I am going to address.’’ Unfolding 'his manuscript, he ad¬ justed his steel spectacles, and with another jerky bow and a broad smile he plunged into the reading of the statement printed elsewhere in The American. Throughout the reading he held the manuscript in a firm hand, and for the most part he faced the swidiessce, which crowded -every smrt: 16 * I of the big; assembly room, in the — t-' ^ i ropolitan Life;,.Building. ^ I - A large part of the statement dealt ij with his relations with his employes. Mr. Carnegie gave an Inimitable re¬ production of Ms meetings with the men. He acted out each part—imi¬ tating the Scotch brogue of one workman, the Irish tone of another, the gruff voice of the superintendent. He referred to himself in the third 1 person, called himself “Little Andy” (in the words of his men), pOunded the table with his fists, shook his fist i in the air, laughed, and leaped about on the witness stand. . Within five minutes broad titters were spreading through'the audience. .But as yet the members of the com¬ mission were grave-faced, and did not “warm up” to the witness, As he con¬ cluded his .statement, Carnegie swung around to the Commissioners, and with a grave bow, said: j “Thank you very much for your kind attention.” STILL MASTER UNDER SHARP CROSS-EXAMINATION. Chairman Walsh at once plunged into the cross-examination. He asked the witness his opinion as to the re¬ sponsibility of directors of corpora¬ tions for labor conditions in the con¬ cerns which they direct. Mr. Carnegie f either couldn’t or wouldn’t understand ‘ the question. “If a director should hear of bad conditions,” he said, “I don’t think he would fail to respond.” : Walsh repeated the question. Lean¬ ing on his elbows, his hands clasped ; under his chin, Carnegie sard: “Of course, I think it is well that directors receive report® on labor conditions as well as those relating to the finances.” “I don't think i made myself clear,” 'said Walsh, putting the question once ; more. “If a director heard no report of trouble,” was the reply, “he’d take It for granted, of course, that every¬ thing was all right. If I was a direc¬ tor and heard of trouble, I’d go down | to the works and Investigate.” I “Do you hot believe”—— began Walsh. i “No, now wait a minute,” cried Car¬ negie. “Put that question another | way. Your way implies that I believe | as you do. Please put the question, ‘Do you believe?’ ” '• Walsh did so. “I believe,” was the answer, “that la director should look into labor con¬ ditions and give them his attention, hut provided always, understand, that he is apprised of the situation. He can’t he apprised if the officials don’t inform him.” The witness finally admitted t-hat it would be beneficial if a rule were es¬ tablished by which directors would be apprised monthly of the labor con¬ ditions in the concern. “It is the duty of the president of the company, after all,” said Carnegie, “to look after conditions, and if he has labor troubles he should consult with the directors.” Walsh next asked as to the right of workmen to organize—-to unionize themselves. “I’m delighted to hear of every such organization i” cried Carnegie. “And you favor collective bargain¬ ing f” “Yes. The more men I get on a committee, too, the better,” he said. His manner was all activity now, and his eyes were sparkling. “Why, X never enjoyed myself so much as when I was dealing with the boys. I look back upon that as the chief joy of my life. And that time when I faced Billy Edwards at the meeting with the men when they threatened strike, and shouted at him: ‘Carnegie takes no man’s jqb!’-—that was the cleverest thing I ever did.” He slapped his closed first on the table and his face and sides shook in laughter. Walsh rapped for order as a laugh started in the crowd. “I was always glad when they came,” continued Carnegie. “I felt sure that if they came to consult with me, we would part all right. Why, I 'knew them all by name. And behind my hack-mark this—they called me Andy? I liked that. I always said to myself, Tf you want to get along with your men, you must have them call you Andy!’” A wave of laughter swept over the room. “Great laughter,” Carnegie whispered in an aside to the news¬ paper reporters. The commissioners laughed with the crowd at this. Bubbling over with good humor, Carnegie faced the throng, his eyes dancing, his, face twisted up in merriment. “Mr. Carnegie,” * said Chairman Walsh, “this Is the first time during these hearings that I have not been able to hold the audience in restraint. You are too much for me.” “I congratulate yon,” was the prompt response. “And look at the ladles there.” he exclaimed, plunging along, having now assumed full charge of the hearing. “I want to tell you that is one of the greatest triumphs of our age, the advancement of the position and interests of our ■ womankind.” f A fresh burst of applause sv^ept ; over the house at this sally. j Smashing a pencil in his effort to H secure order, Walsh himself and his fellow commissioners, fully enjoying the fun, cried: “I don’t think all of you heard that sentiment of Mr. Car¬ negie*®. If you will come to order, I will have Mm repeat it." QUOTES CHINESE mandarin. ON relhsion. “No, I’ll tell a story,” beamed Car- i negie, when quiet had been restored. I On the instant the smile disappeared I from his face. He leaped nimbly from gay to grave. ... “Some years ago I was travelling | in China,” he said. “I was entertained j there by a powerful Mandarin. We fell into discussion of religion, and that Mandarin said to me: "Carnegie, I think the greatest service that your Christ rendered to your Western world I was to the elevation of your woman¬ kind.’ ” 1 He uttered the sentiment_jvith a gesture of conviction. “Think how true it Is,” he cried. “Why, out there at our institute In Pittsburgh we are educating the young women, and# some of them are already receiving salaries of $3,000 and more a year.” “Just one more question, Mr. Car- ; negie, and we will excuse you,” said ! the chairman. „ “I’m not In any hurry,” came the I quick response. “Pm enjoying this,” The uproar broke out afresh. Mr. Walsh lay back helpless and allowed it to subside. Then he asked the wit¬ ness about foundations. Did Mr. Car¬ negie think they might become a menace? •‘H tam'gtn®- thafc- euch a thin* 1 is possible,” said the witness, “any trouble coming from them.” “In his testimony the other day,” began Walsh, “President Eliot”- “Eliot Is one of my pensioners,” cried Carnegie. “He ought to know,” Walsh explained that Dr. Eliot had endorsed the foundations, and Carne¬ gie smiled his approval. Continuing, he said he could not believe that the teachers’ fund, for instance, would influence the convictions of any one. ‘There may be villains receiving pensions,” was the way he put it. “But take a man like President Eliot, who receives a peneon in his old’ age, giving him greater ease and happi¬ ness. The great want in most educa¬ tional institutions is funds. If they have funds they will he able to de¬ velop and broaden. I don’t think you can point out a case of a change to the methods or spirit of teaching ..3 a result of any of my gifts.” 1: incidentally, Mr. Carnegie casually mentioned the fact that he has given to his various foundations, and in other ways, a grand total of. $824,657,- 899. John D. Rockefeller, Jr. testi¬ fied last week that his father’s gifts , totalled $250,000,000. So that Mr. Oar- ( negie declared that he was $74,057,399 j ahead of the richest man in the world. HIS VIEW OF FOUNDATION’S EFFECT ON RELIGION. Walsh asked him if he had ever heard of the religious courses in a school being modified or abandoned in order that it might avail itself of 'Carnegie funds. “Never,” replied Carnegie gravely. “I certainly agree;” he answered to the next question, “that, no matter what a young man thinks about the future, my money shall not close the door on him and say, "You shall not be educated because of your faith.’ “I don’t care a fig,” he cried, rising, and thumping the table with his fist, “what you think about the future. My duty is with this life. The future will be all right if you obey the voice that is within.” They came next to the matter of “publicity.” 'Carnegie, the light of ihumor once more beaming in his face, told a story, “You have all heard about Laza¬ rus,” he said, “who starved to death. Why? The reason is plain. He didn’t advertise.” When the laughter had subsided ha continued: "‘I believe in advertising. The more interest I awaken In my foundations the greater success I shall have with them," He said he could see' no harm in in¬ terlocking directorates as applied to the foundations. “I haven’t spent a more agreeable afternoon in I can’t tell you how long,” announced Mr. .Carnegie. He stepped down amid applause and landed within two feet; of Mr, Rocke¬ feller, who was entering. It was no¬ ticed that the two money masters of the world made no sign of recognizing each other as they passed. The calling of Rockefeller swept over the audience like an electric spank. There had been no previous intimation that he was coming. The news spread rapidly and fresh crowds began to pour into the room. When Mr. Rockefeller appeared the assembly room was jammed. ROCKEFELLER (FACES SOMEWHAT COLD AUDIENCE. Mr. Rockefeller was brief, succinct, and—-very reserved. Every eye was j levelled upon him. On the front row j of seats, a solid line of women, most of them avowed socialists, faced him. | Whereas Mr. Carnegie had faced from the beginning an audience which plainly felt his magnetism, the “coldness” of three-fourths of the spectators to Mr. Rockefeller was. felt. "My name Is John D. Rockefeller,” he said, in a low, slightly 'husky voice. “My legal residence”—-he seemed to lay stress upon the ‘legal’ since has had a controversy with the city of Cleveland on the point— “is No. 4 WeSt (Fifty-fourth street, New York City. I am a retired, busi¬ ness man. For twenty or twenty- five years I have had no active busi¬ ness life.” Mr. Rockefeller had also prepared a statement, which he read. It is given elsewhere verbatim. “If I do not read loud enough,” he said, adjusting his eyeglasses with a trembling hand, “I could raise my voice if it was desired.” With slow de 1 too”a*i 0n he pro¬ ceeded with the reading of the states ment. That concluded, he turned in¬ quiringly toward the Commissioner. Mrs. Harriman and Commissioner Weinstock were the only absentees. Chairman Walsh did all the question¬ ing. “When you established these Foun¬ dations,” Chairman Walsh asked, “did it occur to you that they mipht be¬ come a menace to the public?” “No,” he replied carefully, clearly enunciating each word, “I can’t Say I had any’ fears on that question.” OIL MAN SEES NO MENACE IN FOUNDATIONS. “So far as they have advanced, do you find that they have any such Ten¬ dency?” “No; I have had no occasion for any apprehension in that direction.” “I have relied upon the gentlemen are constantly around me,” he continued, “and the people generally to watch what uses are 'being made of the fund, and on the' legislators who granted the charter. I have be¬ lieved that they would bje much in¬ terested, though they cannot be much more than I am.” Mr. Rockefeller said he once hoped that, a Federal charter would toe given the Foundation, so that safeguards would safeguard the (Fund, “but at the present,” he continued, “I feel that the interests of the public are pro¬ tected as we are. What the future may develop will have to be left to the future.” ’ His voice gained strength as he went-along. With his hands clasped in front of him, his eyes fixed straight ahead, bis manner calm, reflective, self-restrained, he was a most striking contrast to his predecessor. . walsh asked him about the deiratoility of frequent reports as to the activities of the Foundations. “I think, that would be very well | asked him about the desirability -of the public should know. Such reports should be made.” ; “What would you, say about public inspection?” “I haven’t bad any occasion to con¬ template anything of that kind tip to I the present.” ! ' “Asr to the possibility b£ ike exercising undue Influence on educa¬ tion?”- “I have no fear whatever In that regard. Nothing In my observation has led me to have any anxiety so | far.” ’ A® he went along, color mounted '! into his cheeks. He began to show 1 interest in Ms' surroundings. His voice became clearer-^-its tone sug¬ gesting strongly that of his son, who preceded him a week ago, and of whom the elder said yesterday, after h& had concluded Jys testimony: “I am proud of my boy.” He was asked if he thought the foundation might have a tendency to induce educators to alter their course- of teaching in order to get gifts from the funds. He stared at Mr. Walsh a thoughtful minute. “I never heard of anything of that kind,” he replied. “I can’t imagine people doing anything like that. As to our own institution, I- have no idea that it has been true. As to others, I do not know.” “The greatest power this Founda¬ tion can exercise is through its ability to give or withhold funds," said Wash suggestively. “It is a great power—to give,’ 9 «uid Rockefeller. “It may be equally vir¬ tuous and commendable to withhold.* This was an enunciation: of one of , his cardinal principles in giving. “Great responsibilities rest on men in that regard,” he added. Walsh asked the witness about change in the chapter of the Founda¬ tion. “I think at any time anything of that sort is made manifestly desirable to. the trustees,” was the reply, “they would be the ones who would be glad to take any such progressive steps, If indeed they were progressive.” “If the Legislature should repeal the charter, do you feel, that the fund would revert'to you?” ( “I have been hopeful,” was the Whimsical reply. “I have confidence in the board'and in the people —in their good common sense. Therein lies our security.” ’ . < ! [> Walsh next drove into the Inter¬ esting relation of the witness to those who surround and advise him. “My policy,” said Rockefeller, “has always been to select • for the lower . positions in my office staff clean yopng men with ambition to improve. These steadily move up from the low¬ est positions as they show themselves qualified.” He said such instructions as he might want to give generally went through Mr. Murphy or his son. This- man of many* millions declared that he gives less and less personal atten- I tion to the distribution of his wealth. Walsh led him on to the question of union labor. The crowd pressed for¬ ward. O’Connell and Garretsori, of the, commission, both labor chiefs, studied the-witness carefully, I “I would aecord to all men the right to organize themselves— -work¬ ing men and business men as well,” he replied slowly, “with the proper lim¬ itations with respect to safeguarding the rights of the public.” A score of heads to the audience were shaken in disapproval. “I believe the best way to help the laboring man,” fie resumed, “is to •give him steady work and fair wages That’s a better way than any and all of the charities. Coming now to the end, Walsh put to the witness the question whether it would not be more desirable for a ipan of wealth to distribute his for- j tiine through increased wages and \ better conditions of labor than J through the establishment of Founda¬ tions. The witness considered a mo¬ ment and replied: “I would he very happy to see the laborers gradually become owners of these same prosperous businesses to which you refer. I should be only too happy to surrender my holdings In part In any and nil of the industries in which I am interested that the laborer might come In and have a representative on the boards commen¬ surate with his ownership. Just as the other shareholder’s, thus giving them a share in the profits. “I should be very glad to have them, share the profits and feel that they were my partners, and thus, know and see the ins and outs of things." “Have you any plan along that 1S»@ "That has been practised in differ¬ ent. industries for many year®. Th© process Is simple. A majs who ite® the money to pay for a share simply receives his share and is already on® of the firm. Thus he is entitled to ft share in the profits and to know kill the ins and outs of the business,’ 1 ’ Mr. Rockefeller said he had not read the grievances of the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company's employes, “That was beyond my reach/* 1 (fee said. The testimony of the junior Ruble®- feller before a Congressional investi¬ gation into the Colorado situation wm re§d, in which J. D. Jr. declared the company ,w.ould stand by the men who remained at work when the strike was declared. ‘fWhat Is your comment on that?” he was asked. “An employer must stand by Ms loyal men,” was the reply. “He can’t | be treacherous' to men who render faithful service.” j Commissioner Garretson was the | only member of the Commission that ; shook hands with Mr. Rockefeller. II He was escorted into a side room as soon as he stepped from the stand. There he shook hands with some of the ^newspaper reporters and chatted for a few minutes, after which he was taken, ddwii a Side stairway to his waiting motor car. Mrs. John 72. ■ Rockefeller, Jr., was among those who heard her father-in-law testify. Mr. Rockefeller said .he was in fine condition, and enjoyed his experience; on the stand. He was followed by; Congressman Lundberg, of Minneso¬ ta. Seth Low will appear before the j Commission to-day. BENEFACTORS OF TREIR COUN¬ TRYMEN. Two kinds of benefactors of their countrymen testified at Friday’s all-; star session of the Industrial Commis¬ sion. Mr. Carnegie and Mr. Rocke- PELLee , represented the soft that will attract- most attention. Each of them has given away in public bene¬ factions hundreds of millions of dol¬ lars. Since they are still giving, and It is necessary to add their private benefactions, they should be credited with having given away a sum of money almost incomprehensible but a little while ago, besides retaining to¬ gether a billion, or some such sum, since a few score millions are of little account in the balance sheets of these .prodigies of finance. No wonder at¬ tention is riveted on these wizards of dollars. It is idle to make common men of them, and yet the mystery of their accumulations cannot be discov¬ ered from their testimony. Both of them were frankness itself. Mr. Cab- i negie testified with the relish of youth, and could hardly be stopped. He might almost be called an ideal rich man, with no troubles except best how to serve his fellow-men. His millions are nothing in particular to him, in this world or the next. He is pledged to a state of affairs at some distant date which will cause him no embarrassment in passing through the eye of a needle. Mr. Rockefeller is an example , of another type of rich man. His wealth does rest heavily upon him. . His pub¬ lic charities are his chief care. They are on the scale of institutions, and It is difficult to find men competent to administer them, or to defend them against their assailants in the name of the public interest. Mr. Car-; regie's public gifts have not escaped criticism, but the rancor against the Rockefeller foundations is incompre¬ hensible. The bitterness is so great- a,rid felt by so many that it takes boldness to challenge it. .Certainly it cannot be justified upon anything 1 ex¬ tracted by the inquisitors. Intensely interesting as is their testimony from a personal standpoint, there is noth¬ ing in it at which it is, possible to i point the finger of scorn. Yet it is not to be denied that such was the expectation, if not the intention, of the appointment of the Commission. On the contrary,, what appear are facts impossible to match anywhere at any other time, or in any other country trt this time. There was no man on the Commission, or in the room, whose expectation of a fortune for himself might not have been better than the prospects for either Mr. Carnegie or Mr. Rockefeller at their beginnings. Neither money, nor birth, nor politics, nor friends gave them their positions. At the end of their careers they are simple Americans, without decorations or titles, and rather on defense for their accomplishments than presumers upon their possessions. There are self- made men everywhere, but not such giants. ■ There are proud titles and great fortunes, both earned and un¬ earned, but they have gone almost altogether to the.-learned, or the pos¬ sess or.s of privilege by birth. It has been said that these fortunes were made by privilege, but it was the sort of privilege available to others by law and not running in the names of these remarkable witnesses. This is not the exaltation of wealth, nor the denial of virtues to the poor. It is a paean to our institutions, to oUr country, and to the civilization which enables the accumulations of almost countless millions by selling cheap goods after good treatment of labor. Neither of these men dealt' in dear products. Neither-of them has the reputation of grinding the poor. Both of them bestowed upon society more than they : accumulated. ■ Mr. Carnegie’s only difficulty with; labor was to his credit, and the only grievance of his competitors was that he was too hard a man to fight. Mr. Rockefeller's testimony was that. his entrance into the Colorado labor trouble was inadvertent, through an attempt to save a wrecked company, which would have stopped the pay-, ment of wages altogether but for his assistance. He, too, was in difficulty with competitors through his ability to undersell them. Cheap oil and ’ cheap steel are greater blessings to those who have them in the aggregate i than the millions saved from their sale. The foil to this sort of benefactor, I the “comic relief to the situation, was the other sort of benefactor, the I man whose benevolent aim is to over- I set the conditions under which Mr. I Carnegie and Mr. Rockefeller ac¬ complished such marvels. Mr. Lind¬ bergh of Minnesota is one- of those lawmakers whose obsession is that they were horn, and elected, to man¬ age affairs. This is no crude thought of theirs. They have been placed in their position of instructors and bene¬ factors by yotes of those who now are receiving an installment on account of the mandate they gave. ’ Mr. Lind¬ bergh’s contribution- to the occasion was a carefully prepared statement of the advantages of enacting, pros¬ perity. He proposes to fix reasonable returns for capital and labor and for the products of both. All that re¬ mains is to establish the relation of profit, and wages, and prices to each qther. Then there‘will, be no more swollen fortunes, but what, may be described as a sort of economic trades unionism; or averaging of the returns to all who work either with their property or brain of hands. Every¬ body -vvi]l be reasonably rich and no¬ body will be unreasonably poor. There are many who think that such Con¬ ditions would be better than anything this World has ever seen,. There is no disputing about ideals. The fact Is that the accomplishments of the first sort of benefactor are solid realities, and that all their country¬ men share the conditions which both enabled dnd produced thejn. On the other hand all experience shows that the providers of prosperity by statute | are unable to deliver the goods. The long ranks of the unemployed now are proof of it. We had such another hard spell when Air. Lindbergh’s ' predecessor in this line of effort Sought to enact the relation between silver and wheat, which Woiild have been child’s play beside enacting the relative values of everything, so that, nobody might have too much. The result of such efforts is that nearly i everybody gets too little. All and sundry would do Well to think over the contrast and determine anew which sort of benefactor is better, for j the country. Sua*. 1 | 15" The Crime of Being a Philanthropist, j Guilty as Mr. John D. Rockefeller I is of the atrocious crime of being a.! | i rich man who has made splendid I I gifts, for many purposes of phi lan- j || thropy, education,'health, science,, is j he not a better democrat and a better J citizen than the critics of his foun- I | dations when he says: “I regard the right : to amend or I resoind the respective charters of the ;lj several foundations Which inheres in the M legislative bodies which granted, them || an entirely sufficient guarantee against (;! f serious abuse of the funds. Further- ; more, I have such confidence in democ- $, 1 racy that I believe it -can better be left to the people and their representatives | | to remedy evils,whew there- is some 1 . tangible reason for believing they are I , impending 1 rather than to' restrict the | ;j power , for service, in, anticipation of | purely hypothetical dangers.”- Is anybody simple enough to be- s lieve that the Federal investigators : ; have a real solicitude over dangers S ithat may- or may not arise in the j j future from the administration of the t- Rockefeller funds for public purposes? I The Federal Commission, on, Indus- : | trial Relations has shown its hand I from., the, first moment that it in- | fested the -country. It has a known I attitude and a permanent bias. It I “inquires” with its mind, 'so far as j I mind can properly be attributed to it, made up. It ought to he a fair, judi¬ cial body, seeking facts. It is as judicial as Gompers and as judicious j as Bill Haywood, It spreads its. prej- j udiees, its- blind suspicions and ani¬ mosities, ( its unreasoning ignorance over every hearing. It ought to be an impartial court. It is a vaude¬ ville, of claptrap, playing to the radi- cal gallery. We speak of ' the general disposi- j tion of the commission and without reference to such of its members as occasionally or oftener deviate into sense. Its chairman, the Hon. Frank P. Walsh of Missouri, is the tuning fork of the show. Who induced Mr. Wilson to appoint this .micreneepha- lous yawper to discharge duties for which he is so palpably unfit? Is he j from /the variety stage or the mov¬ ing pictures? The insertion - of some", Colorado strikers into the investiga¬ tion seems to indicate the latter origin. But there is a very serious aspect to this farce. Take the rich at the worst moral valuation. Shall they not be allowed to “make restitution”? Shall the community be forbidden to reap the benefit of their dedication of some portion of their “ill gotten gains” to eleemosynary and humane ends? Shall such gifts be discour- aged? Whatever- may, be or has been said against “the rich” in America, their increasing tithes- and more than tubes to great public uses are a mar¬ vel of the world! v So far as cheap and noisy walsh- ing can do it, that munificence is ! made to appear a peril or a crime. Mr. Carnegie’s Testimony. Mr. Carnegie proved a buoyant witness before the Federal Commission on Industrial Relations. He confessed to‘ having had an enjoyable expe¬ rience, and the breezy, somewhat unconventional methods which he employed in injecting his per¬ sonality into the inquiry were a source of much amusement in others, the ex-Pittsburgh iron¬ master struck a note which dispelled a good deal of unnecessary solemnity which had. been allowed to accumulate. Yet it would be a mistake not to put a really serious value on the testimony which he gave. It is Mr. Carnegie’s distinction that he arrived very early at a conclusion which the great industrial leaders in this country have recently been accept¬ ing and acting upon. He believed in the saving value of personal relations between employer and employed. To know the men who worked for him was to get a better understanding of their point of view and to soften differences of opinion over wages and conditions of employment. On the stand Mr. Carnegie showed great pride in the fact that the only strike which ever oc¬ curred in his works occurred while he was in Scotland, and in the other fact that many of his partners considered him too easy-going in his relations with labor. He was undoubtedly ahead of his time in most respects in his consideration for the workers and in his notion that the best results in industry can always be obtained by making the employe feel that he is not merely an unrecognized labor unit, but has himself also some stake in the success of the enterprise of which he is a part. Enlisting the interest of workmen by partici¬ pation in stock ownership, and through relief and guarantee funds, is a commonplace in industrial management to-day. But the will to consider such things was an innovation in the time of Mr. Carnegie’s greatest activity as an employer. He was a pioneer in what is now the beaten path. That is a fact which the public should remember and which Mr. Carnegie is fully justified in re¬ calling with pleasure in these days of rapid progress toward a unification of interests between labor and capital. 20 TO INVESTIGATE ALL FOUNDATIONS Federal Board Will Inquire into Rockefeller, Sage, and Car¬ negie Philanthropies. MANY WITNESSES CALLED Leading Financiers, Educators, and Economists Now Under Commission’s Subpoenas. WILL STUDY THE CHARTERS Effort to Ascertain if Big Self-Per¬ petuating Organizations Are a Menace to Public. Special fo The Hew York Times. DENVER, Dec. 16.—The Federal Com¬ mission on Industrial Relations has de¬ termined upon a sweeping Investigation of the country’s greatest benevolent or¬ ganizations. The investigation will open in New York City on Jan. 11 next. In addition to the previously announced in¬ vestigation -of the Rockefeller Foun¬ dation the commission, Chairman F. P. Walsh, announced today, would inquire into the affairs ol the Russell Sage Foundation, the Baron de Hirsch Fund, all the Carnegie, benevolences, the Cleve¬ land Foundation, and seek the reason for the Rockefeller contributions to charitable, philanthropic, and edu¬ cational institutions, which now amount to .$85,000,000, in addition to the fund contributed to the foundation. It was announced by Chairman Walsh that these organizations would be in¬ vestigated to ascertain if they were a menace to the Republic's future and more than a score of the greatest financiers, educators, and economists of the country, it was asserted, would be called as witnesses. In the list are An¬ drew Carnegie, the two Rockefellers, J. P. Morgan, E. T. Stotesbury, Francis L. Hine, President, of the New York Clear¬ ing House Association; Jacob H. Schitf, E, H. Gary, T. P. Shonts, Theodore N. Vail, Dr. Charles W. Eliot, Dr. Arthur T. Hadley of Yale, Seth Low., and others equally well known. , „ It is asserted that the basis of the commission’s inquiry will be the letters produced here by Jesse F. Welborn, President of theiColorado Fuel and Iron Company, showing the interest which members of the Executive Committee ol the Rockefeller Foundation took in the coal strike. The investigation, the plans for which have'been under consideration for several months, it is asserted will be the most important ever conducted by a Government Commission. Most of the Witnesses have been subpoenaed and to make sure that none of them, should be absent when needed, instructions were sent to agents of the Industrial Commission in the'.East today. Wide Scope of Inquiry. The soepe of the investigation as out¬ lined officially today follows: *'The commission will investigate the rights, powers, and functions of self- perpetuatihg organizations under their present charters and the extent to which these charters may be stretched under the present Constitution of the United States and the restrictions which present constitutional limitations impose; “It will investigate the attitude of high finance toward industrial questions— what organizations such as the Rocke¬ feller Foundation are dbing to relieve in¬ dustrial unrest; how the policies of these organizations are shaded, and by whom; I what part the source of their income I plays in determining what these policies I shall be; whether self-perpetuating or-- ganizations such as the Rockefeller Foundation are a menace to the future political and economic welfare of the nation; what figure they cut in poli¬ tics; the labor policy, of ‘ Big Business ’ in general.” Aside from the men already mentioned, the official list of witnesses includes: Frank A. Vanderlip, President of the National City Bank of New York; George W. Perkins, Director of the In¬ ternational Harvester Company; Daniel Guggenheim, President of the American Smelting and Refining Company ; Nor¬ man B. .Ream, street railway owner and banker;" John Hays Hammond, mine owner; Robert W. de Forest, capitalist and Vice President of the Russell Sage Foundation; Cleveland - H. Dodge of Phelps, Dodge & Co.; H. C. Frick, Adolph Lewlsohn, New York banker ; Thomas W. Lamont of J. P. Morgan & Co.; Seth Low, Samuel Goinpers, Jer¬ ome D. Greene, Trustee and Secretary of the Rockefeller Foundation: the. Rev. Frederick T. Gates, for more . than twenty years in charge of J. D. Rocke¬ feller’s charities; Starr J. Murphy, per¬ sonal counsel to John D. Rockefeller, and Director of Foundation; W. L. Mackenzie King, Canadian Conciliator, now with the Rockefeller Foundation; ^Charles P, Neill, former United States | Labor Commissioner, now with Guggen¬ heim interests; J. H. MeClement, bank- !er; John M. Glenn, General Director of ! the Sage Foundation; Ralph'1VF. Easley of the National Civic Federation ; Allen T. Burns, Director of the Cleveland Foundation;-Samuel Untermeyer, Rob¬ ert Bruere, Trustee of the Rand School of Social Science; Dean George W Kirchwey of Columbia University, Kent Professor of .Law; ,Seth. W. Milliken, New England cotton mill owner; Prof. T. M. Carver of Harvard; Prof. Charles Austin Beard of Columbia; Prof. John Bates Clark of Columbia; Isaac N. Selig- man, banker, and W. H. Allen, formerly Charges have been made to the Com¬ mission on Industrial Relations, accord¬ ing to Chairman Walsh, that the crea¬ tion of the Rockefeller and other foundations was the beginning of • an effort to “ perpetuate the present posi¬ tion of predatory wealth through the corruption of the sources of public in¬ formation.”' , ’ " Aside from the facts given above the members of the Federal commission de¬ cline to disduss the proposed investiga¬ tion, but it is known that information has reached them that there is a fear, on the part of persons unnamed, that the Rockefeller Foundation and sim¬ ilar self-perpetuating - institutions con¬ trolling ‘ great wealth will, ' if riot checked by legislation, be used as in¬ struments to change the form-of gov¬ ernment of the United States at a fu¬ ture day, and there is even the hint that there is fear of a monarchy. It has been drawn to the attention of the commission that the Rockefeller Foundation, having originally $100,000,- 000 exempt from taxation, now has more than $103,000,000 in its treasury after having given- Away several mill¬ ions annually. The--growth of the fund is held, to. be a menace to the gold 'sup¬ ply of the nation. mr 1 m ms TO ARMS! I« Irtnan Frank P. Walsh Wfa his colleagues of the Committee on In¬ dustrial Relations are quite right in instituting “a sweeping Investigation ! “ of the ,country’s greatest benevolent “ organizations ” if the information l that reaches them is correct. Nothing § could be too sweeping if it is true that the Rockefeller, Sage, and Cleveland Foundations, the Baron de Hirsch Fund, and the Carnegie benefactions j are to be used “as instruments to change the form of the Government of the United. States at some future day,*' and especially if “ there is fear of a monarchy.’’ It must never be forgotten that if we had a trust-made King, he probably would not be* a mild and inoffensive one like George V. He probably would not even be, a person like Charles I., with agreeable manners arid a Van¬ dyke beard that might go far to en¬ dear him to hi,s subjects. He would be more like, say,. Pedro the Cruel or King John, unless he. went to another extreme and resembled Heliog abalus. What a trust-made Kilg would be like we can imagine from a long series of Populist cartoons and Socialist speeches. He would certainly be fat, with a hard mouth having cruel lines about it; probably he would wear white side-whiskers and a white waist¬ coat, and he would always have a cigar tilted upward in his mouth to give a brutal twist to its corner. Pie wpuld delight in oppressing the poor, he would insist on having little chil¬ dren labor long hours in factories, and his first royal act would be to abolish eight-hour laws arid unions. Employ¬ ers’ liability laws would certainly fol¬ low, for such a King would take sheer pleasure in counting up the lists of employes killed and maimed in a sin- j gle year and comparing them to the j dead at the battle of Gettysburg. ! Of course our liberties would go al- j most immediately. He would summon I Congress only by royal writ and re¬ place the Supreme Court with the StsL Chamber. No doubt he would abolis/r the National Guard and substituU f Janizaries. Lettres de cachet wou„. surely supersede the writ, of habeaL corpus, and the navy would be recruit|i ed by press gangs. Altogether it would* be very uncomfortable. Mr. Walsh must investigate sweep- ingly, too, if it “ has been drawn to the attention of the Commission ” that the growth of the Rockefeller Fund “ is a menace to the gold supply of the nation.” We cannot get along without, our gold supply- Even if we could, we have become attached to it and the sentimental side of financial questions is not to be ignored in an emotional nation like ours. No, the Rockefeller Foundation must let us have our golc supply even if we have to let It have its way about giving us a King. So, when Mr. Walsh announces that these. organizations will be Investi¬ gated “ to ascertain if they are a men¬ ace to the Republic’s future,” It is wonderful that he can speak so mod¬ erately. The official announcement of the scope of the investigation might be expected, under such, provocation, to exceed that dignified conservatism of language to which we are accus¬ tomed in such sober documents. In¬ stead, it s^ows an extraordinary de¬ gree of non-partisanship, of icy, judi¬ cial Impartiality. It gives no indica¬ tion what its attitude will be. It says, among other things, that it will lnves- tigate to determine whether such in r stitutions “ are a. menace to the future “ political and economic welfare of the j “ nation.” Who could determine from such an expression what was in the mind of the Commission? It says it will investigate “ the .labor policy of Big Business in general.” That is a phrase suggestive of the habitual dic¬ tion of the United States Supreme Court- In the circumstances, we are disposed to criticise Mr. Walsh for hi! moderation. He is too tame. Whf would Robespierre have said in tip face of such a pressing peril to trie ! Republic? We learn from a laudatory biogra¬ phy of Mr. Walsh that he is a Kansas City lawyer, discovered by Secretary McAdoo. But for this lucky discovery we might have had a King in Wash¬ ington before we knew it; and he might today be signing with one hand a royal warrant to behead Samuel Gompers and with the other a letter of the seal sending Charles Edward Rus¬ sell to the Bastille. SUGGESTS SEIZING! ‘STOLEN’FORTUNES Chairman Wi|sh of Industrial Board Says Millions Have Been Taken from Public. ASSAILS BIG FOUNDATIONS His Inquiry Will Go to the Bot¬ tom of the Source of Their Wealth, He Asserts. WANTS A PEOPLE’S FORUM Where Workers Can Fight Oppres¬ sion and Fix the Conditions Under Which They Must Labor. Frank P. Walsh, of Missouri, chair-- man of the United States Commission on Industrial Relations, told the mem¬ bers , of the East Side Forum at a meeting held m Public School 62, at Hester and Essex Streets, last night, that one of the chief causes of unem¬ ployment throughout the country was that more than half the employing il; power of the . United States was lodged with persons residing on Manhattan Island. Mr. Walsh advocated as a cure for unemployment that a national com¬ mission, should be established,'"with power “ to hear the grievances of all unemployed persons and to administer industry for the welfare of the worker's instead of merely for, ihe welfare of the absentee proprietors.” He suggested that two very immediate causes of unemployment were the long hours forced upon unskilled laborers by the telephone companies and by the railroads. He urged that a minimum wage law, providing for an eight-hour day with $10 a week as a minimum wage for telephone girls arid $2 a day for an eight-hour day for railroad sec¬ tion hands would go far toward making places for those now out of work. “Mr. Walsh asserted that on four pre¬ vious occasions he had’criticised the working conditions for telephone gilds, but bad not seen anything published as to his proposal of a $10 a, week ipini- mum wage - for such workers. He praised the plan by which the public schools had been opened “ to be a forum where the people can take untram- rneled councils of their oWn interests.” Sees Peril In Great Foundations. He characterized the Carnegie Founda¬ tion, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Russell Sage Foundation, and the Cleve¬ land Foundation as possible menaces to democratic institutions, and added to this characterization a suggestion that the Government might take over such accumulations of wealth: “ by taxation similar to the income , tax and that it might administer them for purposes in the usefulness of which all the people agree.” Mr. Walsh also outlined the nature of the investigation he proposed to take up this morning at the City Hall into the big philanthropic foundations and into absentee ownership of industries. Questions were sent to the speaker after he had closed his address.’ One which was applauded loudly was: “ If you keep on talking this way how long do you expect to hold your job?” Mr. Walsh was introduced by Carl Beck, director of the East Side Forum, “as a man from Missouri who was asking that he be shown concerning the country’s industrial life.” ‘‘ Our work in the Industrial Relations Commission,” said Mr. Walsh, “ is a work along the line of conserving our national resources. The greatest of all our national resources are the men, women, and children who toil in indus¬ try. Workers 5 to Fix Labor Conditional. “ We have to realize in our problem tjrat toil and toil alone produces wealth, | and the toiler is no better than a slave unless he has for himself a compelling voice in fixing conditions under which he is'compelled to work, his wages, his hours of labor, and conditions as to safety and sanitation. Low wages and ; the resulting evils that arise from them Lare at the heart of our problems today. These problems are economic in their i nature and results. “ The chief purpose of our commis¬ sion is to show forth conditions as to the earning power of the toilers and as to the wages which they receive for their toil. We see unions working hard for more wage rewards, but we also see great concentration in industry. “ The tenant farmer gets less than the underpaid section hand for his day’s toil, yet he is a dangerously increasing class in our nation. Through the land monopoly, through the power of the employer to fix prices we are getting to a condition where the worker hardly receives wages at all, in the sense of re¬ ceiving a value for his work. “ Rather the condition is so that the boss says to hftn on Saturday night: < “‘Here’s $20 in your pay envelope.j Hold it for me till Monday morning.l when I’ll get it all back.’ “ I do not believe approximate justice will ever be reached while mankind is animated with the motive that industry must be pressed harder and harder to produce its highest reward in dividends. Would I be too radical if I should say w'e can never expect a .proper fiscal policy so long as the banks handle the I wealth of the nation purely to make it; pay the largest dividends? In all those! great industries that make the basis op our life the ideal must be to deliver to the people the largest possible service! at the lowest possible cost. The re¬ demption of the people will not come until they are in active control of a Democracy which brings this about. Our great transportation systems grind , out large profits for the few, bUt they can be placed in control of men who claim the rewards of their fellows not for the money they turn to the dividend account, but for the service ' they give at the lowest practicable figure. Would Confiscate Some Fortunes. | “ Even without changes in the laws as they ar; today we can do much to solve the problem of unemployment and the kindred problems that go with it. We can, for instance, take back for the : people vast fortunes that have been'; embezzled from the people. I- mean the fortunes taken from coal lands illegally filed upon in the West. A thief never gets a true title. “ Some companies have said they make no profits, or only a dividend profit of 1 per cent., yet in years when there was no change in ownership and very little increase in actual investment on these properties the value of them was raised on the books by many mill¬ ions. One $19,000,060 corporation I have in mind dodged taxes to the sum of $18,000,000 through control of a local Government. To the value of $18,000,000 j the Government owns that property and • could get it. It ought to take it back. Wants Babies Aided Before Birds “There was a . Colorado coal miner who said something very vital to^ me. He noticed in, the papers that $250,000 had been set. aside from the funds of a certain, foundation to provide a Sale retreat for migratory birds. He found out that $2,590;000 of, the funds of that foundation came from the industry m which he toiled. He protested against | this apportionment or the wealth to , the migratory birds. He said he warn¬ ed first to see established a safe retreat for his babies and his wife. , ! “Is there any'person who will not challenge a $100,000,000 Foundation, ex¬ empt from taxation and to be used in a way the people as a whole do not dominate? There are $300,000,000 now 1 invested in these foundations, and there | are no limitations on those funds. Sup¬ pose all of these foundations should con¬ centrate their resources in the securities ! of one industry, where the toilers were making a fight for democratic control ! They could crush down the defenses of the fight for industrial justice. They bring the great necessities of life under their control. ■ ; - .“Therefore we have instituted this inquiry, and it is not too much for me to say that we propose to go to the very bottom of these great bequests of wealth. Seeks Tariff Returns for People. “I have three definite suggestions in mind. One is that we so phrase our tar¬ iff law that we will have something ' more than a mere promise from its ben¬ eficiaries to pass the rewards along to 1 the workmen. So that we can take the tariff, benefits away from any employer who overworks his employes or beats; down wages, or exploits women ..or chil- dren. 1 ■ , , 1 ', ' “ The second, is that we get back into the hands of the people the resources that have been embezzled and a Su¬ preme Court decision along the lines of ; recent legislation would easily make; this possible. The third is that we pass ! an act of Congress establishing a forum where the aggrieved person in industry can come and have his right to his share of the proceeds of his toil safe-{ guarded and protected. Would End Business Autocracy “We cannot go on with autocracy in business. The fact that a majority of, the employing power in America is i lodged in Manhattan-Island is a menace to the perpetuity of our institutions, for I it is but a step from the autocratic con- trol of industry tc>, tyrannical control -in Government.’’ Mr. Walsh described a “ walled in ’’ industrial town in Colorado where even the literature the people read was, he said, censored for them in a.dva.nce. i He said the, control of the votes of the people in such times might;-jn ,a Crisis swing a Presidential .election. . Eight pany operating such company-owned towns, he said, lived in Manhattan „ fnd I propose to find out,” he said, what they know about the atrocious way their properties are managed. Do these Directors do any more than count j their dividends? Do they intentionally disregard the laws of nature which give men and women the simple right to earn a living by the sweat of their brows. If these Directors do these things then we shall propose some leg¬ islation to change their tactics. What right have they to be sending shiploads of food produced in this country abroad | to a foreign nation while millions in J our own land starve?’* I M . r ®- J- Borden Harriman occupied a ! seat in the front row at the meeting last night-with “Mother” Jones, the strike agitator, beside her. Mrs. Harriman em¬ braced * Mother ” Jones after Mr. Walsh concluded, and introduced her to pu ™ be r v° f _ frierlds in the audience. _ G ® n - John Brown, who led the forces -the striking miners in the so-called ij3ttl6 of Ludlow, nicid© jel briof st)6©cti in which he assailed the Rockefeller Foun¬ dation. He announced that a mass meet¬ ing would be held in Webster Hall next Wednesday night to “ expose the Foun- d^tion ’ with speakers who were on the Noted Men to Testify. Nearly fifty witnesses, many'of whom are prominent in industrial and finan¬ cial life, have been summoned as wit¬ nesses before the Industrial Relations Commission, which will begin its hear ".fmf° da Vi in the u Cit y Hal? m ltS hear - Among those who will testify am- John D Rockefeller, Jr., J. F Morsan' fn£? b i Schi ff. Andrew Carnegie’ ? a o e * Gu S'genheim, August Belmont’ Hepb , u , rn ' Samuel McRoberts’ M e.l OSe ? wald ’ Henry C. Ford? John T?‘i/^ enn », Jerome D. Greene, Paul U Forest?’ Seth Low ' and Robert ' W. de ; « NEW YORK, TUESDAY, JAN. 19, 19-15. out of the fifteen Directors of the com- MR. WALSH’S THEORIES, The illogical and absurd utterances of Frank P. Walsh, Chairman of the United States Commission on Indus¬ trial Relations, at an east side meet¬ ing Oh Sunday will go far to convince intelligent persons that his inquiry, which began yesterday, into the causes of the present industrial situa¬ tion will he conducted in a prejudiced arid probably futile Way. He ex¬ plained that one of the reasons for un¬ employment is that “ half . the em- “ Ploying power of the United States “ is lodged with persons residing on “Manhattan Island.” These persons, It seems, who choose their place of residence so unwisely, live by employ- ug others; he does not tell ns how hey live when they have no employ¬ ment to give, hut he permits us to urap at the conclusion that by neg- ecting to exert their “employing ower,” to make use of their means jif existence, they reap large profits, «’his« is sheer nonsense, of course, false as to facts and crazy in deductions, fbut not worse than his theory that the conditions of labor may be improved by shortening the hours of workers land instituting a high minimum wage. I Obviously, if all telephone girls are to 1 be paid not less than $10 weekly for 'working eight hours a day, the tele- -phone companies will increase the charges for messages. If wages are to be increased by law all other prices will be correspondingly increased, and the relative position of the wage earner will be precisely the same. The existence of great educational and benevolent foundations, to spread learning, to investigate - the causes of diseases arid prevent them, excites his wrath. The Government should con¬ trol such institutions, of courL in the opinion of a man who gravely the establishment of a fund to protect migratory birds on the ground that human babies need protection. Argu¬ ment with such a mind as this in¬ dustrial philosopher reveals is out . of the question, but it is quite obvious that an investigation into a grave and highly important subject, con¬ ducted and controlled by Mr. Walsh, will scarcely develop any knowledge helpful t© human progress on sound lines, . ... URGES FEDERAL REIN ON BIG FOUNDATIONS Untermyer Also Condemns Wall St, Control of Industries at Commission’s Inquiry. RIGHTS OF LABOR SLIGHTED ^Absentee” Directors, Who Do Not Live or Vote at Their Properties, Blamed by Another Witness. American ambition and the. injustice of general conditions were the principal causes of industrial unrest in this coun¬ try, Samuel Untermyer testified yes¬ terday before the Federal Commission on Industrial Relations, which resumed its sessions in the City Hall. The captains of industry, he said, did not seem to recognize the rights of labor until they were forced to do so, and they -had the industrial organization so arranged that a small group of bankers in Wall Street could control a very large -number of enterprise^. Mr. Untermyer read a list of rail¬ roads which he said were controlled by J. P. Morgan & Co. and Kuhn, Loeb & Co., and he denounced the proxy sy- tem. Moreover, he regretted that the act which forbade interlocking directo¬ rates had not gone further, and pro¬ hibited as well the ownership by the same set of men of corporations which were presumably competitors. Roger W. Babson, who followed him on the stand, discussed eVils of the “ab¬ sentee landlordism” of capital, and said he could not see why the control of the lives and. industry of 10,000 men should be permitted to descend by inheritance any more than the..office of Mayor or It had been announced that one of the main subjects of the preserit hear¬ ings would be the effect of such vast foundations as the Rockefeller, Sage, and Carnegie funds on industrial prob- lembs, but they were touched on only briefly when Mr. Untermyer Urged that: they should be- placed . under Federal/! law, with Government representatives on their management. It is expected they wil^be taken up today, when Miss Ida Tarbell is to be one of the , chief witnesses.' . ; i Women Hear Testimony. Frank P. Walsh of Missouri presided,; and the other Commissioners pres¬ ent were Mrs. J. Borden Harriman, in mourning; Harris Weinstock,. S. Thurs¬ ton . Ballard. John B, Lennon, James O’Connell, and A. B. Garretson. The hall was well filled. A'few business! men were there, but the majority of the audience sfeemed to be of the class particularly interested in sociological Subjects. There was a sprinkling of young women who listened'' attentively to the eonomic discussions, and from time to time 1 some of the •spectators, would pass up rotes asking this or that question to be asked. Mr. Untermyer began his testimony by- reading a 'general summary of his views ©n the questions submitted to him. “ Notwithstanding its injustice and many other shortcomings,” he said, “ I believe • in the capitalistic system, _ as our only present solution. Capitalism is more powerful, more rampant, more despotic and less controlled by 'law or public sentiment here than in any other country, but- Socialism is a beautiful iridescent dream, which does not work out a practical theory of Government. Of all the blunders bf capitalism the worst is its disregard of the welfare of its industrial workers. If it were, less obsessed with its own rignteous- ness and sense of security - the growth of Socialism would soon come to an Regarding the Rockefeller, Carnegie and Sage Foundations, Mr. Untermyer said: ... • , ,, “ The manner of their organization is a fair illustration of the vice of our system. These foundations do not pre¬ tend to be limited by State lines. The Rockefeller Foundation sought ’ a Fed¬ eral charter, but not being satisfied with the terms of Congress and desir¬ ing our fundamental laws against per¬ petuities repealed, it secured a charted from New York State. The Sage and Carnegie Foundations did the same.” Federal Law for Foundations. - “If New York had not given them what , they wanted they would have gone from 22 State to .State till they found a corpo¬ rate habitation' on their own terms.! This should not be' possible. They should be organized under a uniform Federal law. Their charters should not be perpetual. They should not be per-' mitted to accumulate income. The Gov- i ernment should be represented on theirj boards, when the present trustees are replaced.” Mr. Untermyer demanded a national corporation law, the abolition of the control of Corporations by small inter¬ ests, compulsory minority representa¬ tion, and the doing away with voting by proxy. He gave the commission the following list of the railroads, which he said were dominated by J. P, Morgan & Co. and Kuhn, Loeb & Co.: Baltimore & Ohio; reorganized by J. P. Morgan & Co. and Kuhn, Loeb & Co. ; Mr. Coster of the Morgan firm a voting trustee. Chesapeake '& Ohio; J, P. Morgan & Co., : reorganization managers. Cincinnati Ramiltpn & ' Dayton; J. P. Morgan & Co., reorganization managers; the late J. P. Morgan a voting trustee. . Chicago &-Great Northern; J. P. Morgan & Co.. reorganization managers; the late J. P. Morgan and George F. Baker, his as¬ sociate, voting trustees. Erie Railroad; J. P. Morgan & Co., reor¬ ganization managers; Mr. Morgan, a voting trustee. „ %I „ Northern Pacific; J. P. Morgan & Co., reorganization managers; Mr. Morgan a voting trustee. . ' ••. ■_ _ Pere Marquette; reorganized by J. P. Morgan & Co. Southern- Railroad: reorganized by J. P. j Morgan & Co.; Mr. Morgan a voting trustee. Union Pacific; reorganized by Kuhn, Loeb & Co. • ««This means,” said Mr. Untermyer, “that a handful of men in this city- have a potential control over the rela¬ tions between the railroads and their employes and can dictate practically a uniform policy toward labor, whenever the occasion requites. It is a vastly more powerful organization than the organization of labor “ i favor these industrial and social reforms: Insurance against sickness and invalidity and unemployment, and; old-age pensions, life and accident in¬ surance and maternity benefits. . The employer, the employe, the State, and the local community should contribute toward the sickness, invalidity, and un¬ employment insurance, as well as old- age pensions. The State should conduct i n dus tr i al - in sura n ce through the exist¬ ing- companies, with representation for the policy holders assured by State representatives on the Board of Direct- “ Do think the few men in con¬ trol of railroad matters have such so¬ cial knowledge or philosophy to use their power for the best interests of all?” Mr. Walsh' asked, New York “ Provincial.” ‘‘I shouldn’t like to pass on their philosophy,” replied Mr. Untermyer,^ “but I will Say that the financial peo¬ ple of New York have less real knowl¬ edge of the rteal sentiment of the coun¬ try than a man from Oskosh. We are the most provincial people in the coun¬ try.” Mr. Walsh brought up the case of the Cdlorado Fuel & Iron Company* the stock of which is held by'2,000 persons. It was shown that practically 10 per : cent, of that stock cbntrolled the prop- ! erty. There was enough of it in the hands of the brokers, which financial institutions controlled by proxies, to make any action on the part of the .small men hopeless. Mr. Untermyer replied that stock¬ holders should vote in person or by mail, not by proxy. Ninety days before : a meeting the management should be required to send out the names of can¬ didates, and any stockholder should be permitted to vote for whom he pleased. Minority representation also should be insisted upon.. The witness illustrated the power of the banking houses in the case of the New HaVen Railroad, which was con¬ trolled by less than 10 per cent, of the stock. “The house that controlled it,” he said, “ named the president, who squandered a vast sum of money ura trying to get a transportation monopoly. When trouble came, jthat house put the . President out. You did not hear a. squeak from one of the 25,000 .Stock A holders. The: power of that house over :the New Haven is as great as ever.” i The impossibility of really organizing '.stockholders was shown by Mr., Unter¬ myer from the case of an 'insurance! company. , It has 14,000,000 policies in 10,000,000 hands. It has been mutualized, but to get even the list of shareholders would cost $200,000, and to memorialize them $300,000. So the officers, through their agents, - rule the company abso¬ lutely. . Asked by Commissioner Garretson whether he would restrict the size of fortunes, Mr. Untermyer hastily .said he would not. He would restrict the means by which, they were made, but if a man FOUNDATION S’ AIM PRAISED. Fear and Distrust of Them Not Shared by Untermyer. To the Editor Of TheTYew York Times: Permit me to correct an error of omis¬ sion in your this morning’s report of the proceedings of the Federal Indus¬ trial Commission* which does an injus¬ tice to the Foundations that are under investigation. In endeavoring to point out the conflict between State and Fed¬ eral laws, I pointed to the manner in which they had secured their charters, but without implying any imputation upon their purposes. Whilst it is made to appear that I criticised them generally, I made the following statement concerning them : I do not share - the fear ; arid distrust of these foundations. T believe' them to be prompted' by the highest ideals-''- of pa¬ triotism and unselfish public .spirit. They was able to make a great'fortune legiti- j mately, he should enjoy it. i The concentration of wealth seemed to I the witness to tend toward poverty, and he thought the Reserve banking law would do much to check the. undue con- j tralization of wealth. . • ■ I. “ It will prevent the. vast sums that we !' now have coming here from'coming in jj the future,” he said, “ I consider it one"', of the greatest pieces of constructive leg¬ islation.” Causes of Unrest. Mrs. Harriman obtained from Mr. Un¬ termyer ah opinion in favor of the Ger¬ man system of labor exchanges. - Com¬ missioner O’Connell asked him his views of the prevailing unrest. Explaining his opinion that it was the result of the in¬ justice of modern conditions and Ameri¬ can ambition, Mr. Untermyer said: “ It is largely due to the knowledge of how great fortunes have been gained and the belief of the industrial workers that they have thus been forced to bear an undue share of the burdens. The in¬ come tax is the only evidence ever given of a desire to share these burdens, and the Captains of industry do not seem to have a very active recognition of the rights of labor. They only give in to them when! they have to.” Strikes and bankruptcies were due ah most entirely to the absentee ownership' of properties, according to Ml'. Babson a statistician. “ There are very few strikes,” he said, “when the man who, builds . up an in-! dustry and lives in the'same town man- ages it. Th'ey come, when he dies,, and the bankers get hold of the property. ! Bankers are not opposed to labor. They are only indifferent to it, and so .the real owners leave the management of the property to others.” Mr. Babson reckoned that of the cap¬ ital of Mr ge American industries, 80 per cent, was in the hands of men in twen¬ ty-story office building's, 8 per cent, be¬ longed to directors; 8 per cent, to sal¬ aried executive officials, 2 per cent, to' employes, and 2 per cent; to minority shareholders. , “Are the executive officials,” asked Mr. Walsh, “qualified to handle labor policies without Government restraint? ” “Yes,” said the witness,” if they are let alone. But Wall Street wants quick and large dividends, and does not care, if they come, whether . they come by fair means or foul, by good machinery or antiquated,” Mr. Babson was very much opposed to the enormous American fortune and the way.it was handed on. “ I don’t object,” he said, “to a man i disposing of his property, but I do to his : passing on his vote. I live in New York', and so I cannot vote in Boston. So if I s own shares in a Lawrence mill and live fc in Europe, why should I have' the right ! to vote? “ Has not the owner of the stock the -I right to control individuals.? ” asked ‘ Mr. Walsh. “ That Is the same question as the Ernperor William has : asked. We are in the same position as we were 140 years ago. England could have re¬ tained our allegiance if she had wanted to, as she did Canada. Capital is now | ip the same position toward labor, as | j England was toward 1 us, and as Eng- It ' land learned its lesson, so capital must learn hers.” . Opposes Absent Director's.' Mr. Babson dwelt on the necessity of\ doing' away with proxies and holding the anual meetings of directors not in twenty-story buildings, but in the ac¬ tual mills. He instanced the American Woolen Company, with 14,000 employes, and said that not one of the Directors lived in the milling district. Tliey know nothing; about the workers. The, witness described how Mrs. War- basse of the Denison Manufacturing Company had introduced what he con¬ sidered a real system of profit-sharing among employes. ;She had issued pre¬ ferred stock to the full share iof the plant to the old stockholders, and then, had chosen the employes earning $100 a month to receive the common stock. This represented the value, they added to the plant, and the returns either were paid to them after the preferred stock-' holders had received their dividends, were used to improve the machinery. When one of these men left or died, his stock was either bought, at a regular price, or exchanged for a second kind of preferred stock ranking below that of the preferred stock held by the original shareholders. Mr. Babson would not admit that the Ford plan was true profit-sharing. It was merely a way to increased wages. Profit was the result of the work of the foreman or the designer, and helped, make wealth, he' contended, while wage' was the pay of the' man at the bench and must be regulated simply by supply and demand. John Mitchell and- Miss Tafbell are to be the witnesses at this morning’s hearing. are magnificently Managed by -the best intellect of the . country—far better than would be possible with any public institu¬ tion, ■ : Yv - ; The genius and resourcefulness to whicn their founders owed their material suc¬ cess have-' been unselfishly . expended by these men upon these Foundations, which are to be the monuments to future genera¬ tions of their usefulness to society. They are doing incalculable public good and no harm. Happily, their conduct does not to any appreciable extent reflect, the devious methods by which these fortunes were accumulated „por the views or policies of their founders on economic questions. In every Case in which the hope or ex¬ pectation of future endowments may pos¬ sibly be influencing the policies of the institutions ..the effect will be at most temporary. It. will pass away with the life, of the founder if there is any such- 'present restraint. I can see -great benefits and ho appreciable danger from the ex¬ istence of these Foundations, : except from the forms of their organization. I am anxious not to have it appear as though I had said or implied anything reflecting upon the high purposes in which these benefactions have been con¬ ceived and carried out. ■ . _ 8AMUEL UNTERMYER. New York, Jan. 10, 1915. IDA TARBELL FAVORS SCIENTIFIC CONTROL Efficient Management, with Co-operation, Her Scheme to Quiet Industrial Unrest. \ \ \V N Mr. O’Connell said that the Bethlehem Steel Company had not cut its hours and the witness countered with an ac¬ count of a steel mill where men were leaving at 4 o’clock in the afternoon because they had performed their task The Commissioner wanted to know how the elder men would fai-e under scientific .management. Miss Tarbell at once replied; •“ The employers should have consid¬ eration for them. A man intelligent enough.to install Scientific management ■will be intelligent enough to take care of such men.” If men wanted to prevent the workers from wanting more, Miss Tarbell said, they should not have educated them, and she thought the opposition of some employers to remedial legislation was due to ■ unihtelligen.ee, stupidity, and greed. Chairman Walsh suggested that the opposition to scientific management sometimes came from the fear of over¬ production. This led Miss Tarbell to a •denunciation of that fear. It was the policy of the trusts, she said, always to Keep the supply a little less than the demand,. She told of how hundreds of , , , parries of apples had been thrown into Scientific management found a whole- ; the Mississippi, when they were plenti- ■ hearted champion yesterday in Miss' ful, to keep the price up Ida Tarbell, the magazine writer tlm JVSally supposed,’ wodd ^nake Who testified before the Federal for prosperity,” she said. “ It is natural Commission on Industrial Relations! that ^thc laboring man should have at the City Hall. Like othei wit- nothing makes work’ iike work. This • nesses, she spoke of the unrest among; perni cious doctrine has done us terrible the laboring men, and set it down to NO AID IN WOMAN SUFFRAGE Congressman Lewis Likens Mine Situation to Feudalism—Schiff and Belmont to Testify. thejr desire to better themselves,' but, -unlike labor unions, she contended that the great remedy for present conditions would be the principle of scientific management sympathetically and fairly applied with the co-operation of the employes to give it a fair chance ot success. airs. J. Borden Harriman suggested to Miss Tarbell the power of suffrage, but the witness held that lack of ex¬ perience kept the wages of women low¬ er than those of men, and that women rather than men kept the vote from, women. Congressman David J. Lewis of Mary¬ land, Chairman of the House Commit¬ tee on Labor-, followed Miss Tarbell on the stand. He advocated a change in the conditions of mine ownership on the ground (that it was impossible to re- j gard a man who provided his workers with their homes, their stores, and their doctors, as well as their employment, in precisely the same position toward them as ah ordinary employer of labor. He also made a set speech urging the placing of the telephone and telegraph Systems under the Post Office. . Mother Jones, the agitator of the mine fields, was in the audience and scat¬ tered through the hall were many young men and women who had been prom¬ inent in labor struggles. Miss Tarbell on Golden Rule. : Miss Tarbell, who was dressed in a black tailored suit and hat to match, described herself as “ a poor journalist going around putting down merely what I observe.” Chairman Walsh asked her to explain the title of a series of her articles, “ The Golden Rule in Industry.” “ It is the attempt,” the writer re¬ plied, “to work out the policy of doing as you would be done by. There seems to be a silent revolution going on in American industry toward this end, a growing- feeling that the common man fs worth a good deal more than any emplqyer or manager ever dreamed. There is an increasing desire to give him full justice and the idea is steadily at work. “ It is coming out fundamentally in What is called the science' of manage¬ ment. This breaks away entirely from the old ideas. It means better earn¬ ings, shorter hours, and, most important of all, the development of the man as a worker. “ One -reason why scientific manage¬ ment is ..so important is that it requires co-operation and collective action to ! make it really successful. , Under ” harm. Look at the war scare and the way jt has stopped production. Abund¬ ance, abundance; we need abundance.” Congressman Lewis then took the stand and, as a man who had worked for fourteen years in the Pennsylvania coal mines, ma.de a statement with re¬ gard to the laws of mine ownership. Theory of Mine Ownership. : “A man can no longer Own a coal mine as' he owns his house and garden,” he! said. “ Suppose a friend and I were to find 10,000 acres of coal lands in West Virginia. We ought to exploit the mines for the good of soeietry'. We must take the miners - out there and build them houses. This gives us. the relation of landlord and tenant, as well as em¬ ployer and employe. Then, we may have to start commissary stores. This gives us a third relation. And then we may have to supply the doctor, and perhaps even the 1 saloon for our miners. ' “ So if mine employes have trouble with their employer, the result to them is disastrous, . It affects all their rela¬ tions to life at-once, except toward their wives and children. Not only their work, but their homes and their stores, are gone, arid , it is inevitable that when the employer tellp the men to get. out there should be trouble. \ “The employer is not wholly to blame, for society has told him that the mine is his. just as his garden and cottage are his. But his relations with his em¬ ployes are impossible in this country. They are a feudalism grosser than Eng¬ lish history has ever shown. If all the country was in the same state, we should either cease to have private property or the -Republic itself would perish.” Mr. Lewis spoke of the difficulty Con¬ gress had in proposing arbitration for the ‘Colorado trouble, because the coal owners argued that there was nothing to arbitrate, as they had the undehiable right to do what they pleased: with their own property. “ We must either modify this theory: to meet conditions,” he said, “or so¬ cialize the /property itself. I presume the country /is not ready, for this second alternative, and it might be worth while asking whether the Public Utilities Com¬ missions might not be called upon to de¬ termine the facts in labor controversies, so that the voice of society as usual inlght speak, to settle the controversy.” Congressman Lewis made a strong ap¬ peal to the Commission on the advis¬ ability of the Federal Government tak¬ ing over the telegraph and telephone services. He argued that it could carry them on much more cheaply than the private concerns,' and quoted the suc¬ cess of the parcel post compared with the express companies. The Commission will resume its hear¬ ings this morning at 10 o’clock. The wit¬ nesses for the day are to be Jacob Hoi- 1 eyery man must be heard, whether his j lander, Jacob H. Schiff. August Rel¬ com plaint be silly or not, either as an mont, and Adolph Lewisohn. j Individual or through his representa- S Miss Tarbell said she had seen the [ system at work in half a dozen big fac- I tories, and laid stress upon its power I to push men out of their ruts. Asked to | Instance a . plant, she mentioned the United States Steel Corporation’s estab¬ lishments, and said it was particularly exemplified by the great increase in tl>e safety devices. She advocated short hours and high pay. “ At the Commonwealth Steel Com¬ pany, at Granite City,” she said, “ the men now work eight hours, and the j management .reports they make more I steel than they used to in twelve hours. It was the head of the plant who re¬ cently refused a $20,000,000 contract for shrapnel, because he did not want to make missiles to kill men. The belief Miss Tarbell criticised union leaders for not going into, the shops and study¬ ing scientific management Instead or op¬ posing it. One-third of the extra pro¬ duct. she held, should go to the nian- a.gers, one-third to labor, and one-third to the shop. Mrs. Harriman put forward the com¬ mon obiection to scientific management, the way it would work under unscrupu- , lous. employers. Miss Tarbell answered s at once that then it would not work, at; all. ' j Unions and Employers. “How can It harmonize wilth tile unions? ” asked Mrs. Harriman. “ It is a great mistake for the em¬ ployers not to foster the unions and for the unions not to understand the new taiethods. o u t hi h k the financial interests are working against suffrage to keep down the wages of women? ” “I don’t think they are interested. Most of the men-I know are. suffragists. It is the women who are preventing suf- 'Oommissi.oner O’Connell asked for an Example of scientific mapagement re¬ ducing hours in a machine shop, ‘. the, prey of .all exuerts.” J. H. SCHIFF DENIES BANKERS CONTROL [. ' ; -- . They Only Act to Protect Rail¬ road Shareholders, He Tells Federal Investigators. ; y --—- v\-AV DESCRIBES DE HIRSCH FUND Explains in Detail How It Helps Jewish Immigrants in Many Ways. MR. BELMONT AND UNIONS Interborough Chairman Says Ex¬ ecutive Officers, Not Directors, Deal with the Employes. Jacob H. Schiff, the head of Kuhn, Loeb & Co:, testified yesterday in the j City Hall before the Federal Commis- | sion on Industrial Relations, and took i the opportunity to, deny the statement of Samuel Untermyer before the same body. Mr. Untermyer had asserted that two large banking firms, J. P. Morgan & Co. and Kuhn, Loeb & Co., controlled a large number of the railroads of the country mainly through the fact that they had reorganized them. This state¬ ment Mr. Schiff described as sheer non¬ sense and said that the only control of the railroads that existed was such as was exercised, by officers and Directors for the time being, who send out proxies which the stockholders could return if tliey wished or let alone. Mr. Schiff had been called, mainly be¬ cause he is so. closely‘associated , with the Baron .de Hirsch Fund, which, is one of the great charitable foundations, to which the commission has been turning its attention of late, but the Commis¬ sioners did not miss, the opportunity, ) when he was on the stand, to ask him as to the interest he, as a Director, took in the employes of the companies with which he was associated. Directors ami Employes. The same question was put to August Belmont, Chairman of the Interborough j Rapid • Transit Company, when lie was on the stand in the afternoon, and both, f witnesses gave much ' the same ' reply. 'The wages- and hours of the employes they considered a matter for the execu¬ tives of the companies and the Directors [ would have no direct concern with them, Until some trouble sprang up. Mr.. Schiff was in 'favor of some Fed¬ eral scheme . for bringing the man and the job together, and expressed the be¬ lief that any organization which would I be of benefit to the moral and economic condition of the employes would be a i gddd thing for the State. Mr. Belmont was, however, not so willing to go on [ record in favor : of unions. He told of I the experience which the InterboroUgh 3 had had with the union of its own em¬ ployes, and drew a distinction between the conditions on the , Subway and on the great steam railroads. .He admitted that there were some very admirable and honorable unions, but he thought jit too big a subject to be dogmatic about. The only other witness of the day was Prof. Jacob H. Hollander of Johns Hopkins University. He believed thor¬ oughly, in trade unionism and suggested that some method be adopted by whieh labor should be “ decasualized.” He said an organization should be at- I tempted to 'do away with the evil re- ] suiting from the periodical throwing out of empldymeht of men from sea- l sonal or other causes. . Mr. Schiff’s Vast Activities. When- Mr. Schiff was called to the stand. Chairman Walsh began by ask¬ ing him with what companies be was connected as a Director. He enumer¬ ated the Western Union Telegraph Company, the Central Trust Company, the Oregon Railway and Navigation Company, the Wells Fargo Company, and said he was a Trustee of the Baron de Hirsch. Fund, the Monteflore Home, and other institutions' which he could not remember. “ I own personally,” said Mr. Schiff, “ 8,000 shares of the Western Union, but I represent! many thousands of shares—I cannot tell you how many without consulting the books. 100 shares of Central Trust Company stock myself, but represent none, the Wells Fargo Express Company, own 1,500 shares or more myself, and represent perhaps 2,000 or 3,000 shares.” ‘‘I do not believe that any self-re¬ specting executive officer of a corpora¬ tion would tolerate such a thing, espe¬ cially in a public service corporation.” Asked, then, to give his opinion about child labor, Mr. Schiff said that he considered that the child should be pro¬ tected in every way, and that no child below 14 should be employed in any in¬ dustry. When the child was above that age every , care should be taken to pre¬ serve his morals. “Do you believe as a result of your observation and experience that indus¬ trial discontent is increasing or decreas¬ ing in America?” asked Mr. Walsh. “I should rather hope that it is de¬ creasing,” Mr. Schiff said. When he was asked about his views oh charity, Mr. Schiff gave support to one of the measures which.the commis¬ sion has often brought forward, the es¬ tablishment of a Federal Labor Ex¬ change. He had been talking of the voluntary charitable work done in this city, which he considered was carried on with a, great deal of efficiency, and he expressed the opinion that the physi¬ cally handicapped might be aided to such employment as was within their power, such as the running of small stores. They might have small loans made to them, and laborers might also be as¬ sisted over hard times by advances on their chattels or even their own respon¬ sibility. Government Employment Bureau. “But,” went on Mr. Schiff, “I do not think any employment office can Igf' made a success except, indeed, for sulv a matter as domestic help, unless tffi United States Government takes hold h it. We have to bring together those whC need work and those who can give it. ___|___ uua ,. M But now there is too much congestion. far as he knew, the latter was employ- '• j “In New York City and the Atlantic ing boys under ** years le ^ al Coast cities there is a superabundance He was. he_f^ i( l;_opposed to any j 0 f laboiy while in the West there is not enough. We should have a means of' pointing but to a laborer where he is ■*' % - doy- j “ What infomation do you have as to I labor conditions in the industrial cor¬ porations of which you are Director? ” asked Mr. Walsh. " “ No information, unless there should be trouble,” replied Mr. Schiff. “ What: action would you take in case of trouble? ” “ I should ascertain what the trouble was about, and bring all sides together and try to effect a settlement.” Asked to explain what he considered were the functions of a director in regard to labor conditions, Mr. Schiff said that a director did not deal with these matters in the ordinary course. ; That was the province of the executive officers. If he heard of any impending .trouble, he would call the matter to the | attention ol’ the Executive Committee and begin an' inquiry. The results of [this,- if important, would then be report¬ ed to the Board of Directors. Mr. Schiff outlined the usual system of reports on the financial and com¬ mercial conditions of a company which are made to Directors, and then Mr. Walsh asked: “Is any report in such detail, checked and verified, made to the Directors as to labor conditions?” “It is not,” answered Mr. Schiff. “ Would it not be desirable? ” “ It would be neither desirable nor un¬ desirable. The executive officers of a well-administered corporation must deal with all labor questions.” The relations of the Western Union Telegraph Company to the American District Messenger Company its subsid¬ iary, were then explained to the cc™ mission, and the witness denied that, JL. 2 , child being employed In any labor for profit. ‘ ‘ Has your attention been called to the American District Company sending small boys into vice districts to deliver messages? ” “It has not,” replied Mr. Schiff with a good deal of emphasis. “ Is an inventory made of the entire assets of the Western Union? ” “ That is made once a year. It would go before the Executive Committee and the Directors at the annual meeting.” The Baron de Hirsch Fund. Then the Chairman turned the exami¬ nation toward the Barbn de Hirsch Fund. This is one of the great bene¬ factions, like the Rockefeller, Sage, and Carnegie Funds, the amassed wealth of which has aroused the uneasiness of the commission. When the Commis¬ sioners arrived in this city Mr. Walsh defined one of the chief objects of this visit as the consideration of the effect that these great funds might have on the general condition of labor. Mr. Schiff told how Baron de Hirsch had left about twenty-five years ago a nucleus of $2,400,000, and how this had increased by legacies and gifts since then to about $4,000,000. The fund was managed by a Board of Trustees and I controlled only its own funds, which were invested in bonds and New York real estate mortgages. The fund was intended to aid Jewish [immigrants from Russia and other places, and it was used to subsidize Jewish industrial and educational* in¬ stitutions and to establish Jewish farm¬ ers throughout the country by making advances on farm and chattel mort¬ gages. In addition it had a manual training school, from which it turned out two semi-annual classes each year numbering from 150 to 175 each. In its agricultural school at Woodbine, N. J., there was an average -attendance of from 70 to 75. " The books of the foundation are always open to the public,” said the witness. “ Our average expenditure is $175,000 a year. We founded a town at Woodbine, N. J., as. a farming set¬ tlement, and we have put a good deal of money in the venture. The town has been self-governing for the last C “ Hftr are the Trustees appointed? ” asked Mr. Walsh. “ The first trustees were named by the Baron de Hirsch before he died in 1894. We are a self-perpetuating body and the trustees are notv chosen for their high-mindedness, conscien¬ tiousness and known -good qualities as citizens.” “Do you think that it would be a f ood idea,’V asked Mr., Walsh, to embcratize such funds as these by bringing outsiders to help administer them, such outsiders to include Govern¬ ment or other municipal officers? “ I am sure,” anSwc vd Mr. Schiff, that the managers of every founda¬ tion, that I know of have every desire to bring in the most influential men and women that they can—many of them we might speak of ■ as compara¬ tively poor—to aid and guide them.’ Mr. Walsh suggested that it might he well to give the Government repre¬ sentation among the trustees, but this brought from the banker the objection to what might be termed the general political element. Would Encourage Unions. From this subject Mr. Walsh turned to the question of unionism, and the opinions that Mr. Schiff held as to the_ bight of men to organize. “What do you think of the right of employes to organize for their own pro¬ tection and advancement? ” asked the Chairman. ■ ' .. ... - “I believe that the organization of employes for their own benefit, which means for the benefit of the State, should be encouraged in every way. I believe that it would be of benefit mor¬ ally and financially and should be en¬ couraged.” profits. It should lead to an increase of productivity, and it was ridiculous to suppose that all' employes would get their wages increased simultaneously. Practical experience showed that some classes would get more at one time and another later, and so the advance would be progressive. The cause of social unrest, Dr. Hol¬ lander defined as the existence of a large class with an insufficient income, and so he considered trade Unions, sup plemented by insurance against sickness and unemployment and old age pensions needed, and I know of no local employ¬ ment exchange which can accomplish this. I have been connected with sev¬ eral, but they are all handicapped by lack of funds. The only way such a bureau can succeed is by the establish¬ ment of a Federal Bureau.” When Chairman Walsh had finished his interrogations. Commissioner Wein- stock reverted to the testimony of Mr. Untermyer concerning the control of railroads by two large firms of hankers. To this Mr. Schiff replied: “ That is sheer nonsense.” “ Mr. * Untermyer was mistaken, then?” asked Mr. Weinstoek, “ So far as I know. There is abso¬ lutely no control of the railroads, except such as is exercised Indirectly by of¬ ficers and Directors for the time being, who send out proxies, which the stock¬ holders can return if they Wish or let alone. When shareholders are neglect¬ ful and are not watchful, then things go wrong. Whenever there is railroad mismanagement, it is due to the neglect of the shareholders.”, Mr. Weinstoek pointed out that, ac¬ cording to Mr. Untermyer, after a re¬ organization, bankers, though they re¬ tained but a small, number of shares, were able to keep the control of the company. “Mr. Untermyer may be correct in some cases,” answered Mr. Schiff, “but the attitude of bankers, to whom widely scattered shareholders look for protec¬ tion, is that they would be gladly rid of the burden. The stockholders still -look to the bankers to protect .them.” Another opinion of Mr. Untermyer was then put to Mr. Schiff. The law¬ yer had considered it one of the great mistakes of labor unions to encourage the growth of the trusts. When Mr. Schiff was asked if he thought it would be easier for the unions to deal with the big organization®, he answered: “ Yes, and no. Yes, because labor will get better treatment from men who are in the limelight and are amenable to public sentiment, which-is almost al¬ ways right. No, because small em¬ ployers, though selfish, cannot resist the demands of labor as the big em¬ ployer”’ “ Public Opinion Always Right.” Mr. Weinstoek brought up the case of the Colorado trouble and asked how far public opinion had affected the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. Mr. Schiff was quick with his reply: “ We have not had the last word in the Colorado matter yet. I do not believe public opinion can be resisted, and in the end public opinion is always right, and will be in this case.” None of the labor members of the commission wished to cross swords with ■ Mr. Schiff and he was excused. Dr. Jacob H. Hollander of Johns Hop¬ kins University succeeded him and dis¬ cussed the plight of the laboring man from the scientific point of view. He believed, he said, in trade unions, hut not as a panacea, and thought they should he supplemented by aid for the underpaid, the unemployed, on account of seasonal fluctuations of demand and the unemployable. lie was not satisfied that society had exhausted its remedial resources, be¬ cause, while it had dealt with the spec¬ tacular problem of pauperism, it had \ neglected the poverty, the silent, tragic mischief wrought to the man who never! had enough. He believed that under 1 certain conditions the minimum wage [ might he adopted, and he thought that, as at the London docks, a system had .been created by which the casual crowd of men fighting for, odd jobs had been replaced by a semi-permanent force, so it should be possible to apply a similar system to “decasualize” seasonal la¬ bor. ', . $ j . y.'i Unemployment, said the witness, was the result in part of the habit of capi¬ tal of developing a surplus stock of la¬ bor. It. tried to have always on hand as many then' as it would need in its busiest seasons instead of only suffi¬ cient to supply the normal/average de¬ mand. Commissioner Lennon wanted to know S o? If /he e, lahor ;ll conditions ’of d the Commissioner Lennon wanted to know Western Union Telegraph Company, and; whether the witness thought wages was then asked specifically whether he c,hnl,M haWpFi wmWiw o-n.i knew that the company maintained a blacklist against men who were , ac¬ cused of trying to organize its em¬ ployes. .. •, “I doubt if that be true,” answered the witness. “You tiiust. not forget that the Western Union is a public service corporation and must be sure that it can render its duty to the pub¬ lic. I do not believe there is a' black¬ list. I know nothing of it.” , “But if it does eXist?” persisted Mr, Walsh. should be settled merely by supply and demand. Dr. Hollander replied that that should not be the case if the result was less than enough to support the la¬ borer properly. At the afternoon session the commis¬ sion met in the. Aldermanic Chamber and Commissioner Garretson asked the witness about the doctrine that in¬ creased wages would so increase prices as to leave the laborer in the same posi¬ tion as before. The increase in wages, said the Pro- lessor might come from jeXCessive August Belmont Testifies. As August Belmont was called to the stand the audience, which included many well-known supporters of the Socialist cause and persons prominent in labor agitations, drew around him. He was sitting on a chair on a small platform, and as he spoke in a low tone it was difficult even for the Commissioners to hear him. The crowd swept up from the back of the hall and almost formed a circle with the witness as the centre, j Asked about the companies with which he was connected, Mr. Belmont enumerated the Interborough and a number of Its subsidiaries, the Cape Cod Construction Company, and the Wright Company. He had no interests, he said, in industrial concerns and very little in mines. Chairman Walsh began to examine him upon his knowledge of tire labor conditions on the Subway and elevated lines. Mr. Belmont replied that, While he was an officer of the Interborough, he had taken a keen interest in these mat¬ ters; but now that he was Chairman of the board, he left them to the execu¬ tive officers. “A Director,” he explained, “rarely nas to do with labor conditions unless he is asked for a decision in such a serious matter as a strike. The exec¬ utive management builds up its own method concerning labor matters, and - they are not brought to the attention of ! the Directors any more than a small matter concerning the transportation.” How far is a Director responsible for 1 labor conditions?’’ asked Mr. Walsh. That is too large a question to answer,” replied Mr. Belmont. “ I per¬ sonally feel a responsibility for them, and must feel that in the main they are ip. accord with my own opinions.” “ What would be your attitude if a strike were brewing? ” “It would be the duty of the execu¬ tive officers to tell the Directors of anything of serious moment. As far as I remember there has not been any strike of late,” “ How does the Interborough discover whether its employes are satisfied?” “The General Manager has a rule that each employe has the right to come to him or to one of his assistants on any subject, wages, hours, or any¬ thing.” “Would a group of employes have the same privilege? ” Mr. Bel- Inter boron gl« Welfare Work. The witness pleaded his lack of fa¬ miliarity with' the details of manage¬ ment, in reply to questions concerning wages or hours, but gave a general description of the welfare work of the company. It had established four club rooms arid Instituted a system of stores where employes could buy necessaries at cost price. He could give no details, but he thought if a man resigned from the benefit asso-ciation he lost the sur¬ render value of his insurance policy. •“What is the policy of the Interbor- ough toward a union of its employes? ” asked Mr. Walsh. Mr. Belmont said in answer that he must describe how that policy had been arrived at. Then he. told the story of the strike on the Subway and the: Elevated, and the discovery that there was a secret agreement between the men to help each other in ease of trouble. Up to that time it had boen the policy of the company to support unionism, but when it demanded fruit¬ lessly that the secret agreement should be abolished it was backed up by the national organization, the Amalgamated Society of Street Railway Employes, and the men . lost their membership’ in the union. “ We are obliged to give uninterrupted service on our lines,” went on Mr. Bel¬ mont. “ We have 20,000 men and their power is go great that we decided that unless we cohid ; find some method by which an agreement could be enforced It was undesirable to have unionized labor”’. “ Are relations with the union a mat¬ ter for discussion among the Directors? ” asked Mr. Walsh. “I. can’t remember that we have dis¬ cussed them for some time. We accept conditions as they are.” Mr. Walsh wanted to know if in the Spring of 1912 the InterbOrough had not discharged several . hundred motormen, bht Mr. Belmont said he could not tell him. He added, however, that he had understood that the Locomotive Engi¬ neers had tried to unionize the motor- men. Before the elevated was electrified many of the engineers had belonged to the brotherhood, and when they became motormen may have retained their cards. “ Does thfe company keep a department to collect information concerning any v attempt of the men to improve their con¬ ditions? ” “I could hot say,, replied Mr. Bel¬ mont, “ but we have men at ho inform the company concerning all conditions.” “ Is there any arrangement with a de¬ tective agency or do you exchange in¬ formation concerning meh with other companies?”, asked Mr. Walsh. Mr. Belmont said he could not say. ‘ Civic Federation Details. Then Commissioner [Weinstoek took up Mr. Belmont’s former position of Pres¬ ident of the National Civic Federation, and obtained from him an explanation of the way in which that body recog¬ nized unions by making their represen¬ tatives one of the three sections of the Executive Committee. He could not, however, get Mr. Belmont to commit 24 ! ■ ■ j . . ii . ., ■ I, himself on the question of the closed or open shop on, the ground that it was too broad to discuss. He thought, how¬ ever, that the open shop .was probably the right principle. In the same way, Mr. Belmont was not willing to express a definite opinion on the Public Enquiry Act into labor trou¬ bles. One difficulty, about it Here would be that it would not he compulsory. “ If it were,” remarked Commissioner Garretson, “ there might not be enough jails to hold those who violated it.” “ I am not one,” retorted Mr. Belmont, “who believes that a jail sentence is necessary to make a man in charge of great enterprises perform his duty.” Chairman Walsh had to rap for order •dt the murmur the answer caused, and Mr. Garretson replied hastily that he hms thinking of the difficulty of send¬ ing to jail a whole union which might offend. Mr. Garretson suggested that the j reason why the Interborough would not ] permit its motormen to unionize was because it desired to pay them $2.75 as motormen rather than $3.75 or .$4.50 as engineers. Mr. Belmont replied that when men Ceased to perform engineer’s duties they could no longer expect em- gineers’ pay and draw a distinction be¬ tween the distress which might be caused to the city by a tie-up of its rapid transit system, and the much less injury to the country of a railroad strike. The general railroad strike, though much talked of, he pointed out had never yet occurred, i The hearing was adjourned till this morning, when Daniel Guggenheim, ' E. J. Berwind, George W. Perkins, and ■ Stewart MacRoberts are to be the wit- GUGGENHEIM FAVORS STATE AID TO LABOR Tells Federal Commission Gov¬ ernment Should Find Work for the Jobless | J ob^le: AND HELP MEN WHEN ILL George W. Perkins Would Have United States Regulate Unions —-E. J. Berwind Testifies. With Daniel Guggenheim,, E. J. Ber¬ wind, and George W. Perkins succeed¬ ing each other on the stand, the Fed¬ eral .Commission on Industrial Rela¬ tions at its session yesterday in the City Hall was able' to interrogate on their attitude toward labor three of the largest employers' in the country. It found Mr. Guggenheim and Mr. Per¬ kins strong advocates of the profit- sharing plan and Mr. Berwind a be- liev'er in paying the highest prevailing rate of Wages, and from all three of them came a cordial recognition of the necessity of, meeting in every possible j Way the legitimate demands of the j working man. While Mr. Perkins laid stress on the importance of extending Federal con¬ trol not only io the industries which are now nation-wide, but also to the trade' unions, Mr.' Guggenheim laid stress on the. duty of employers to realize how - great was the social prob¬ lem and bade them use the legislative power of both the State and the Fed¬ eral Government to solve it. It was notable also that the three wit¬ nesses of yesterday took a different view of the duties of Directors toward the labor problem from that expressed by some of the business men called at previous hearings. Mr. Guggenheim as a practical smelter, Mr. iBerwind as the head . of coal mining companies, Mr. Perkins as a member of the Finance Committee of the United"'States Steel Corporation and the International Ilar- cster Company had almost direct knowledge of the conditions obtaining among their employes and could testi¬ fy exactly as to their needs. Rockefeller, Jr., LooUs In. The attendance at the: hearings has been • steadily growing. There were dozens of men standing yesterday. Ho small proportion of them had taken part in the I. W. W. and other labor agitations ot the last few years, and some had personal knowledge, of the troubles in the coal fields. Into this gathering . carae for a short time in the morning John D. Rockefeller, Jr., who j will, himself be a witness next week. He was not recognized by most of those present, and lie explained his visit by saying that he had been much interested ' in the investigation and would 'have liked to spend a longer time' dt it if he were not just now so busy. When George W. Perkins was called to the stand, he smiled as Chairman Walsh asked what his occupation was, and said: “ I’m afraid I shall have to get you to name that.” Then he proceeded to read a prepared answer to the, questions submitted by the Commission. In this he declare^' that in his belief co-operation, and noCT competition* ; was the life of trade, and | he strongly urged the extension of su-J ] pervision of the federal Government. I j “ l'have.long believed,” he said, “that } ! co-operation through large industrial units, properly . supervised and regu¬ lated bv the Federal Government, is the only method of. eliminating the abuses from which labor has suffered under the competitive method. I believe in co-operation and organization in indus¬ try. I believe in this for both labor and capital; but; as ,in , both cases, the result places large, power in the hands of a few. men, I believe that such or¬ ganizations should be under the strict regulation and control of the Federal Government, in order that they may give the public the maximum amount of good and the minimum amount of ■evil.” - ! . ' ' ' " Absentee Ownership. Mr. Perkins dismissed the tariff as an appreciable factor in the formation of trusts, and put them down to the growth of means of intercommunication, and he scouted altogether the idea that there are grave evils inherent in ab¬ sentee ownership. Of this he said: ' “So long, as there is the telephone and the telegraph people are going to do business of all kinds on the absentee basis. Opr Federal Government is based on the theory that the President in Washington represents absentee owner¬ ship. It cannot be otherwise under! modern methods of life.” Fears concerning the, great philan¬ thropic foundations Mr. Perkins brushed aside as illusory, as long as there was due publicity in their methods,’ and be objected to Chairman Walsh’s sugges¬ tion of Government administration on the ground ti>.at it would greatly dimin¬ ish their efficiency. He came out for small Boards of Directors, with Indi¬ vidual’ power and responsibility, since he was for the “ short ballot in busi¬ ness,” as he was for thp short ballot in politics, and; he declared that. it was impossible to solve the, problem of com¬ pensating labor properly through , the wage system alone. . . , “ One reason why I believe in large Opl’p'orations 1 ,” he said, “ is, that .the jf ownership being impersonal, you can? have profit-sharing, welfare work, pen¬ sions, accident and benefit plans, which cannot so well be had in small units where the ownership, is personal.”. Then Mr. Perkins launched into an attack upon Federal legislation. Ten years ago, he said, he would have said that unemployment and other Industrial ills were due to the defects and malad¬ justments of American industry. But a great change had - come, and now he believed that, it was the defects in the Federal law and Administration which were to blame. The laws, both State and Federal, had been drawn as though [ we still were doing business under the j same conditions as our forefathers. j Doing business, however, was a fact j and not a theory, he said, and men must > do business according to the customs which prevail today; yet the political leaders had been bidding men follow an i altogether antiquated and unsound sys¬ tem" Germany had discarded the old small competitive units of business for the large units with co-operation on j every hand. Thereby it had stopped the emigration from its borders, and Mr./ Perkins asked if that were not a start- ** “^Fbr every ounce of trouble,” he went on, “ brought about hf-industry through the Selfishness of business men, a pound has been brought about by half-baked laws and muttonhead legislation. Our legislators have not even possessed hind¬ sight and have been veritable babes in foresight.’’ , , Mr. Perkifis in particular denounced the Sherman Uw and asked how much better it would have been if twenty years ago laws had been passed instead against fever-capitalization and for full publicity of railroad and industrial or¬ ganizations. So lie believed in Federal regulation of large units and complete publicity. Trade unions place great power in the hands of a few Men, he said,, and so should be under Federal regulation.” Daniel Guggenheim’s Views. Daniel Guggenheim was the first wit¬ ness examined yesterday morning, and he gave a long list of smelting and min¬ ing concerns m which he is a Director or officer. In describing the knowledge that the Directors acquired of labor con¬ ditions; he iaid stress on the fact that thev are all expert hi the smelting busi¬ ness, and so With frequent visits to the plants they kept in close touch with wltkt was actually going on. ■ “ A year and a half ago,” went on Mr. Guggenheim, “ I thought wo should do more for Our men, both for a humane and for a business reason. I thought we should get more efficiency if we gave ! the men better living and working con- i ditions. So we engaged Dr. C. P. NmU, : former Labor Commissioner, to .study i the situation. We have done much and ; we hope to do more.” 1 Then the Witness said his companies i had always adopted Workmen’s, Ccrn- i pensation acts and, at Perth Amboy had insured their employes free, so that ' the family of a single man gets $500 and the widow of a married man .$1,000 on bis death. “If you heard.” asked Chairman i Walsh, “ that some of your employes aiid their families were not receiving enough to support them, what steps would yfeu take as Director or Presi¬ dent? ” “I should Order an investigation, and, if the facts were proved, I should do everything in itty power to alter edndi- 1 tions.” Perth Amboy Strikes. Asked about the Perth Amboy strike of 1012 Mr. Guggenheim could not give details of wages aiid hours, but he said Gov. Woodrow Wilson’s representative had complimerited the management. “ HoW is it you had two strikes at Perth A mboy in 19i0 and 1912? ” “ Strikes, two . yeafs apart I do not think 1 'requePt. It is due to the high cost Of living. Workmen hatufally get discontented. They are living under dif¬ ficulties. and the high cost of living causes the discontent.” • This led Mr. Guggririlifcim to discuss the question of trade unions. He ad¬ mitted the right of men to organize, and said that capital was likely to get arbitrary with too touch power, as labor also became, arbitrary. tie was afraid that industrial discontent was likely to increase. “ The greatest canker the world suf¬ fers from,” he said. “ is envy. The worker sees himself denied many things he Wants and, he suffers from envy. There lias; hbwCver, been a great awakening in the . last few years, and employers are seeing that it dues not pay them to grind down labor.” Mr., Gug'gertheim announced himself as a believer in legislation.. The United States, he said, was far behind German;' aiid England in providing for its work¬ ers, and lie thought the difference be¬ tween the rich and the poor man should be reduced. “ I favor,” he said, “ the Federal Gov¬ ernment and the State helping men to find work, and when the workingman is sick the State should see he is at¬ tended to properly. The problem is too big for the State alone. It is too big for the employer aloile. The two must get together, and co-operate with the working man. . The working man does not only want higher Wages. He wants something higher—comforts for himself and family. He will get them and he should:get them.” The witness refused absolutely to say- how much he had himself given away in-charity, but paid d tribute to ; Mrs. Guggenheiml s help in this direction. Then he took up what might be done by State philanthropy., «He would Have the State or the Federal Government see that every fit man had a job, and lie thought the United States might tax feed,pie to help others. So many people he knew refused to part with their monev, which did them no special good, that he held that the United States must tax people when they die, to raise money to look after the bulk of the people. : Private Charity Pauperizes. *' Don’t ydu believe in private bene¬ factions? ” Chairman Walsh asked. “It tends to pauperize,” the witness replied. “ .Many people of fine feeling would i rather starve than accept char¬ ity. l" meet them every day. They want work, not charity. Such matters had better be handled by the State.” When the examination turned toward profit-sharing, Mr, 1B6 ( 166 I Five-day men are the “ floaters, so- | called, who leave without explanation or no &°?T and worry in the struggle for Jlvellhood t° propertySi Upwards of 200 men have been in¬ fluenced and helped to obtain citizenship in the United States. A carefully prepared map of the city shows that 8,000 families nave changed their place of residence since the plan was started, and a study of the districts into which they have moved, and from which they came shows tljat the migra¬ tion has been from poor and squalid to healthy, sanitary quarters, with environ¬ ment conducive to health, happiness, and comfort. Fewer in Police Conrt. Results on character and steadiness of men may perhaps be best measured and more thoroughly understood by agencies outside the company. Police justices say whereas Ford em¬ ployes, recognized by their badges, were almost daily seen in the prisoner’s dock, up to a year ago, since January, 1914, they have been noticeably absent arid are rarely among the unfortunates brought to justice. From one of the largest Polish Cath¬ olic parishes in the city, the father writes " The work of the Ford Motor Com¬ pany has been of tremendous benefit to my people. Heavy drinking is charac¬ teristic of the Poles I know. Your fyork, however, has resulted in sobriety now being the rule rather than the ex¬ ception in my parish." The company has organized a school wherein the non-English speaking are taught the rudiments of the English lan¬ guage—to speak, to read, and to write it. At start, teachers were employed who had made school work their vo¬ cation. , After about three months' operation the school grew from about 200 mem¬ bers to approximately 1,100, and the paid teachers were replaced by volun¬ teers from the Ford Motor Company, some of whom had had experience in school work, but the most of them foremen, sub-foremen, and men from the ranks, and are simply enthusiastic individuals eager to help along a good work and., better the condition of their brother men, both as an expression of gratitude for what .their employer has done for them and to seize an opportu¬ nity for self-enlargement which the xyork offered. Why Plan. Was Adopted. QUESTION NO: 2. What reasons did the Ford Company have for assuming so large a measure of responsibility, not only for the labor conditions in their plants, but also for the social and moral surroundings of their employes? ANSWER. The knowledge that market rates of Wages were not sufficient for men to employes as to their individual welfare, v » is most desirable from every standpoint, / ‘ not only that of the employe and his 6* A family, but of the business itself. The ever-increasing interest developed in our plan by other employers, of labor and the individual expressions of the men themselves, which we have taken great pains to learn from disinterested sources, further prove the correctness of our views. QUESTION NO. 5. To what extent would it be desirable, in addition to giving employes a share of the profits in a corporation, to give them also an insight into the operations of the company and a voice in the termination of working condition^? ANSWER. If by this question is meant a voice in determining the policies of the com¬ pany in working out its success, we say: “No man wants to be burdened with the care and responsibility of deciding things.” Great freedom of speech and expres¬ sion of ideas exist in our work, and a great many valuable suggestions are gained thereby. Individually or col¬ lectively, men may raise their voices with suggestions, and: they are always heard. If, on the other hand, what is meant is a voice in fixing the personal phys¬ ical surroundings of the employes, we should say most decidedly the employes should have a voice, and their opinions and wishes should be consulted. So far as the Ford Motor Company’s actual experience is concerned, these surroundings have been, as judged by modem and existing standards, so ideal in character that there have never been any complaints from the employes, and we believe entire satisfaction has been; the rule. His Business Policy. QUESTION NO. 6. As a result of your observations and experience, What is considered to be the effect of the growth of large corpora¬ tions and the centralizing of their con¬ trol on the condition of labor in the United States? . . I t . ANSWER. Any' manufacturing institution that is successful making a single product, should increase the business and its plant, and make more work to employ more men. We cannot expect a man to give us his best efforts when he is in debt and has not enough to keep his family on. If corporations are overcapitalized they must necessarily oppress labor to make a showing. But if they grow from small beginning, naturally, and stick to one legitimate product, balanced conditions are bound to follow. The sooner men can be taught that labor is just as much of an asset, and more, than machinery and buildings, the sooner labor will be properly recog¬ nized. In my judgment mere bigness is no objection if corporations are not over¬ capitalized. QUESTION NO. 7. What is your attitude toward the ac¬ cumulation and perpetuation of large fortunes? ANSWER. We believe it is better, wiser, and more just to make many men com¬ fortable than to make a few very rich. QUESTION NO. 8. As a result of your observations and experience, do you consider that private ..... — ~ — -- ---% experience, uo you uousiuer ium. piivulo properly ear^ forjselUEmd dependents, phi i ant hrophies can deal adequately or and That the environment in which its effectively with social conditiqns? ANSWER. employes were thus made to live gave rise to mental anxiety and a physical condition that triade it utterly impossible for the human agency to deliver all of the effort that it was capable of in ful¬ filling the best and larger functions for which it was designed at work, at home, arid in the community. The company also had the c- seize an opportunity for breaking away from old-time habits and customs that wereL. possibly applicable to other pe¬ riods. The institution of a new order, treating men like men in man fashion has brought out much of, human salvage and proven that barriers between em¬ ployers and employes thought to exist and often existing can be largely re¬ moved. A large proportion of our employes were foreign born, many of them recent arrivals not used to American habits and surroundings. Very few, if any, resented our guiding them into better conditions, into habits of thrift, saving, sobriety, and improved moral and so¬ cial Conditions. No coercion is laid upon any employe, but if he is not liv¬ ing a sober life, or is neglecting his duties as a father or husband, and he: persists in such course, he can not be an associate in our business. QUESTION NO. 3. What has experience shown regarding l the extent to which the character and ! social conditions of employes are the re¬ sult of the conditions under which they are employed, including wages, hours of labor, general physical surroundings, i and treatment by officials, superinten¬ dents, and foremen? ANSWER, ; No man can bring up a family and hope to own a home on the ordinary rates of wages. I do not think that any man can good work mentally and physically for more than eight hours per day. In my judgment the other factors are not so very important. Conditions, Not Theories. QUESTION NO. 4, Is it desirable for a corporation to as¬ sume so large a measure of control of. had prepared setting forth the chief I ©,nd dependents, with ^at might. happen if the, job ^is lost, .nave pointB in the Ford profit-sharing plan, Mr. Ford’s Complete Statement. The complete text of Mr. Ford’s state- : ment follows: I will endeavor to answer briefly the written questions submitted to me by the Commission in their order. practically been eliminated. P No man is discharged from the service of the company until he has been proven utterly unfit from every stand¬ point. If he fails to make good xn one department, the foreman of that de¬ partment sends him to the clearing house: and he is given repeated trials, if necessary, ——— —^ They may, and probably do do some good. Of course they are not adequate. But my idea is justice, not charity. I have very little use for charities or phi¬ lanthropies as such. My idea is aid to men to help themselves. Nearly all are Willing to work for adequate reward. We have all kinds of cripples in our employ, and they are making good. We,; have a great many who have been in prison and who are outcasts from so¬ ciety. Every one of them is making a \ good showing and is gaining in Self- | respect and strength of character. We will guarantee to take every man out of Sing Sing and make a man out of him.-- . ■ , QUESTION NO. 9. From your observation, what is the i effect of the work of private philan¬ thropic organizations on the persons whom they assist, and the people who endow or contribute to such institutions? (No answer.) QUESTION NO. 10. Do you consider the establishment, of such unrestricted foundations, as the Rockefeller Foundation, to be in the in¬ terest of the public policy? If not, what objections seem to you to carry the most weight? , , . ANSWER, I have not given sufficient considera¬ tion to these questions to justify an ex¬ pression of opinion. $25,000,000 Profit Last Year. Asked by Commissioner O’Connell If the experiment had p4id “ as a business proposition,” the witness replied; •* i don’t know how you will figure it out. There are only eight members of the company. We have a two-milllon- dollar capitalization, and did last year between $80,000,000 and $90,000,000 worth of business. Our profits were about $25,000,000.” Mr. Perkins submitted a statement of the wages and hours of the employes of United States Steel Corporation. It said employes as the Font Company has} the men were now receiving the highest, - - ' ' '■ 1 wages ever paid In the industry, making the average wage, excluding the ad- ministrative and selling’ force,, $2.85 r ddna? ,,, A hBWER. ■ We do not Undertake to say what cor¬ porations should do in general, b” + employers of labor—we mean the themselves at the head of these enter¬ prises--have a genuine, sincere, and active interest in the improvement of the conditions of labor and a heartfelt personal interest in the welfare of theiij employes, no conditions that are irk-j some or distasteful will be laid upon the 1 theoretically, some persons may argue that We have no right to inquire how a, man lives at home, so long as he does his work at the factory, but we ate talking of conditions, not of theories. SfMenS greater benefit flmiht that the. interest taken in than shorter. hours and higher wages. the employes worked twelve hours a day, but they were' mainly in the blast furnaces and rolling mills, where work was not continuous. Actually they were employed for less than two-thirds of their period of duty, and if that was cut to eight hours, it would mean such a loss of income that many would leave their jobs. . . , .. The corporation, the statement said, had found that when It gave up working its men seven days a week, more than 4,000 quit for mills where there was no such restriction, for steady employment * a* 3 *®*™ 11©^; **** •, until ^h^makeri good, or it yond ttatutheInterest taken in! than shorter T :6 Moreover it was pointed out that the lowered tariff had exposed the corpora¬ tion to the competition of foreign steel j mills, which worked its men twelve hours a day at fifty per cent lessj The statement said $2,564,839 was paid to workmen or their families as com¬ pensation for injuries in 1913. Safety work in 1913 had cost $680,593, and the injuries had been reduced by 8814 per cent, from 1906. There are 2,092 pen¬ sioners, retiring at the average age of 63.73 years, with average service of 28.82 years, and drawing $422,815, or an aver¬ age of $20.85 a month each. Oh Dec. Sf, 1913, there were 35,026 employes who were stockholders, with more than 166,- 462 shares among them. In 1914 there were 46,498 employes who subscribed for 90,606 shares of stock. Asked whether he thought that profit sharing might turn out to be the'miss¬ ing link between capital and labor, Mr. Perkins replied: “I think when a group of men start an industrial concern, they should be required to go to Washington to get a charter or license. They are asking a privilege and ask both the workers and the consumers to trust them. They ought to put down their cash, dollar for dollar, for their capital, and after paying expenses and a certain per¬ centage on the capital invested, profit should be divided between the stock¬ holders and the laboring mep.” Denounces the Tariff. It was when he was asked about the depression in the steel trade that Mr. Perkins denounced the tariff. "The country," he said, "will not continue under the present law. To it Is due the depression in the steel in¬ dustry as well as in other Industries.” " Do you think a protective tariff is necessary?” asked Commissioner Wein- i “We need a tariff on a non-political “ Would the present conditions have resulted from the tariff, if there had been no war?” asked Mrs, Harriman. " If we had a proper tariff, business would be much better. To answer your question almost brutally,” said Mr.. Per¬ kins, “ without the present tariff and the war, conditions would be infinitely | better. If the tariff is not changed be-1 ■ fore the end of the war, conditions Willi be infinitely worse.” Mr. Gompers began his testimony by announcing that he had received a tele¬ gram from the Commercial; Telegraph¬ ers’ Union asking the commission to summon the employes of the Western Union and Postal Telegraph Companies to testify as to wages, hours, and so on. " You will get some startling informa¬ tion,” he said. ' Mr. Gompers attacked the contention made by Mr. Perkins that business had as much right to organize as labor, on the ground that capital merely handled the products of labor, while labor was human. As for the contention that unions should be incorporated in order that their funds might be attachable for breach of contract, he said that the employers could 1 not be held in damages for any breach of contract they might commit. A. report on the Roosevelt (N. J.) Strike from an organizer of the Ameri¬ can Federation of Labor was read. It asserted the men were not asking higher wages, but were striking to protest against a cut from T&2 to $1.60 a day. The attack on Jan. 20 was entirely un¬ justifiable. it Stated. This led Mr. Gompers to an attack On the detective agencies Of the couhtry. Eight-tenths Of their work, he said, Was strike-break¬ ing, strike-provoking, trouble-making, and espionage on men and Women in labor circles. Me produced a circular from a Cleveland detective agency in which- offers were made to employers to report every symptom of trouble Or in¬ difference in the operating force and to detect the trouble-makers. “ Our methods are such,” the cir¬ cular said, " that the agitator soon finds himself in a minority of one in the establishment with an atmosphere too frigid of his comfort. We do not dare to say more on this 1 subject.” Gompers on Big Foundations. Regarding the big philanthropic foun¬ dations like the Rockefeller, Sage, and Carnegie Funds, Mr. Gompers said: " The Rockefeller Fund could not In¬ vestigate the labor question Impartially. Its whole atmosphere would be against it. There may be a difference of opin¬ ion concerning the Sage and Carnegie Foundations.” " Such an Investigation would not tend to alleviate unrest? ” " In my opinion, the unrest and dis¬ content are not an evil. Healthy unrest Is a groping after better conditions, and without it we should not even have con¬ ditions as tolerable as now exist. These foundations may be applied safely to medicine, history, or art, but they should be prevented by law from trying to mold the mind of the people in their constant struggle for betterment.” " Then there are the secretive methods employed by the Rockefeller Founda¬ tion. It has had its teachers placed on the Government lists on nominal sala¬ ries, so that it can send out its litera¬ ture with the Government’s frank. It is a fraud on the Government. It is an im¬ position on the name of education. It is most dangerous, when the Government is willing to surrender its function of teaching to the Rockefeller Foundation with its history behind it.” , Commissioner Weinstock, with an apology, read to Mr. Gompers this ques¬ tion, which had been Submitted from the audience: “If a union inflicts injury upon third persons unlawfully, by boycott or sym- pathetic strike or violence, such as dy- j namite, why should it not be legally liable for such injury in damages? ” “Who is my questioner?” asked Mr. Gompers in wrath. " Why does not he give his name? Everybody Knows who I am.” " His name is Walter Drew,” said Mr. Walsh. .“ I thought so,” shouted Mr. Gompers. Well, if a union inflicts any injuries unlawfully it ought to be brought to the bar of justice as any man. As for a boycott or a sympathetic strike, under the law of the, United States they are not unlawful.” “ What about the decision in the Hatters’ case?” asked a person in the topmost gallery. “ The man who said that must retire,” he called out. “ I’m going,” replied the voice " But why—” “ Will you go out?” called the Chair- ' man, and a sergeant of arms expedited the going. “ The reference to dynamite,” went on Mr. Gompers, “ is an insult and in¬ tended as an Insult. Anyone who uses dynamite should be sent to prison.” Mr. Drew wished to explain hut was cut' off by the Chairman, and then Mr. Gompers settled down 'to explain that jurisdictional disputes were inevitable between unions, and the American Fed¬ eration of Labor, which had no author¬ ity to stop them, did its best to prevent them. He .demanded the restriction of immigration, : L. D. Brandeis and C. H. Neill will be the Witnesses at this morning’s hearing, i which begins at 10 o'clock, I If Mr. Henry Ford succeeded in turn¬ ing the inmates of Sing Sing into useful citizens, the creditr would be due to the man of generous impulses, and not to the shrewd business man. iMr. Ford has repeatedly asserted that the prime secret of his notable achievements as a cap- jtain of industry is standardization. Through absolute uniformity and the absolute elimination of waste he has placed himself beyond competition in his field. But the essential characteris¬ tic of the prison inmate is that he of¬ fers such difficult material tp standard¬ ize. He represents the waste products of society. Through his own fault, or that of others, society has found it im¬ possible to give him a job in the stan¬ dardized routine of the world’s daily work. It is very likely that the chance to do useful work would reclaim a very large number of Sing Sing’s inhabitants, hut it must be work offered in the spirit of a patient humanitarianism not expec¬ tant of immediate results. Mr. Fora’s statement should prove most useful in pricking the. conscience of many good citizens who believe in the abstract pos¬ sibility of reclaiming the convict hut shrink from the trouble and risk involv¬ ed in giving the ex-convict a concrete job. |\J v "C ' NEW YORK, SATURDAY, JAN. 23, 1915. TH£ pooh and the rich. The inquiry before the Industrial Commission is eliciting sentiments of a gratifying sort, but which may have an application different from what is expected in some quarters. Eminent representatives of capital entertain only the humanest views regarding the treatment of wage earners. The Steel Trust, the Oil Trust, the Smelt¬ ing Trust are ' among the best em¬ ployers of labor. It is rather because of their intelligence than of their wealth.. The vieWs which their spokesmen express may have individ¬ ual inspiration, hut they reflect also an appreciation that public sentiment requires such ^virtues to be expressed. There is no man so rich or so bold as to express in public an intention to oppress labor. The intelligence of capitalists may or may not inform them that well-treaied labor is the most productive and the most profit¬ able, but it is sure that their pru¬ dence requires them to conform to ' the universal sentiment that profits are not to be enjoyed at the expense of extortion from the poor and the weak. The need of the time is not to impress that policy upon the leaders of industry, but upon their weaker brethren. It is the competition of the weak and the needy which embar¬ rasses labor and capital alike, The need of the time is less the preserva¬ tion of competition than the regula¬ tion of competition. The trusts and the unions alike seek to regulate de¬ structive competition, and both see the need of the assistance of law if Which is making competition of strohg labor against weak labor unendurable which is threatening society by deep- disaster is to be averted by com- | iening the antagonism between labor petition within the ranks of both, or by war between them. It is to be. regretted that this i’ more true of capital than of laboi ( The unions do not pander to. the pub lie conscience as the capitalists dal The gospel of the labor extremists is that labor produces all, and that all belongs to labor, to their own section of labor even. Even the wickedest capitalist concedes that something is due to labor, but there are multitudes clamoring to the public that nothing is due to capital, and that capitalism should be abolished, ions of organized laborers Whose gospel is that' ten times as many of the same class have no rights except such as the unions concede them. Suoli extravagance compels a chal- len^p as to the correct attitude of so¬ ciety as a whole toward both capital I dividual fortunes argue not at all to i and capital, whose interests are in co-operation rather than in competi¬ tion. There are reasons of interest as (well as moral reasons why society bitist protect itself against the Selfish- fless of labor in the guise of human¬ ity. The humanity of the unions has | no thought for society. Society must do everything for the unions, but the Unions owe nothing to society. Was jit ever heard that the unions should give up anything to humanity? Was It ever heard that the unions should There are mill- ( Increase efficiency, or increase abund¬ ance of goods, so that want might be abolished? Yet that is the service of capital. The effort of capital Is toward profit through abundance, (through reduction of cost, through the stimulation of distribution. In- and labor, the rich and the poor. So¬ ciety as a unit comprises both and has no prejudice for or against either. Society as a whole is as impersonal as any corporation. So far as society has a conscience it has used It rather upon capital than upon labor. The money-power has been subdued to the perception that it must conduct itself according' to public opinion in its rela¬ tions with labor. The Same is not' true regarding the policy of organized labor toward other labor or toward papital. Before there c&n be peace Within the ranks of labor, or between labor and capital, or between unions and society, there must be a better morality on the -part of the unions than is manifested in their preaching or their practice. It is necessary to say this because labor Is repeating the mistake of cap¬ ital in seeking- privilege by law. the contrary. There is no large for¬ tune made by restriction of production j of necessities, or by the raising of j price. The world’s biggest fortune is a trifle compared to the reduction' of the price of the commodity in which the fortune was accumulated. The accumulation would have been impos- j ■sible if the price had not been re- 1 duced. The vice of the unions is the re- ! quirement of increase of reward with¬ out increase of merit or of effort, i Neither labor alone nor labor’s policy | would ever have given the world the blessings which have resulted from capital’s policy. The results of capital¬ ism speak for themselves. The policy of labor in antagonism is indefensible, either morally or from the stand¬ point of the selfish interests of society, of which labor is but a part. The requirement of society is that labor Labor is seeking and getting legisla- should subdue itself to society, even tion which is immoral and inhumane, as capital has done. DEMOCRATIZE WORK, IS BRAHMS’S PLEA iVioivj ^ VS ' Benevolent AbsoIu\ism * To¬ ward Wage Earners Must Be Avoided, He Testifies. POINTS LABOR’S MISTAKES Lawyer Tells Industrial Commission Employer Should Confide More in His Employes. Louis D. Brandeis of Boston, who de¬ scribed himself as “ a lawyer and pub¬ lic worker, but not in office,” was 'the sole witness yesterday at the hearing of .the .Federal , Commission on Indus¬ trial Relations in the City Hall. He in¬ sisted on the necessity of modifying Lhe I position of capital toward labor, so as ( to give labor less of the .feeling that it I is entirely at the mercy-of its employer, and he said he . believed that part of the , friction, between the , two parties would be avoided if only; capital would take labor so far into its confidence as to show hoW inadequate profits some¬ times were and what great risks it was obliged to take. ! In the mere size of corporations Mr. , Brandeis saw a danger, with industrial I relations in their present unsatisfac- j tory condition, and he asserted that the ■ mere alleviation of the physical condi¬ tions of the workers would not be suf¬ ficient to allay prevailing unrest. So he was led on to express uneasiness at the great philanthropic agencies like ; the. Rockefeller, Sage, and Carnegie 1 Foundations, although he admitted that he had no doubt of the lofty aims which had; caiised their creation. In spite of the bad weather the Coun¬ cil Chamber was nearly as crowded as at the previous hearings. Most of the j audience appeared to be in sympathy with Mr. Brandeis’s Criticism of the | corporations. Mr. Brandeis held the at- ! tention of the , commission until well' after, its usual hour of adjournment, and j even then Prof. J. R. Commons, whom ill-health had prevented from joining i his colleagues at previous sessions in | this city, had not time to ask him alii I the questions he Wished. Wage Increases Tardy. I Mr. Brandeis expressed the opinion 1 that in many industries ther;e had been i improvements in physical conditions, and that the growth of large and suc¬ cessful enterprises had contributed to¬ ward this end. But he thought the in¬ crease of wages had npt been so rapid as it should be. This was almost the only good word the witness had to say for the, big concerns. Chairman Walsh asked , him if lie had found them ■ a bulwark against the gro vvth of trade unions. “Great corporations like the Steel Trust, the Tobacco Trust, and the Sugar Trust possess a power against which, in the ■ main, trade organiza¬ tions have struggled in vain,” the wit¬ ness replied. “Smaller organizations have shared the same design and pur¬ pose, but have not had the same power to resist the unioris. The large corpora¬ tions have been able to bring labor from all parts of the country and have had the financial resources , to hold out. So they have influenced the situation more than the smaller concerns,” This led to the question of the under¬ lying causes of the industrial unrest, of which Mr. Brandeis said.: ■ “ Many causes Contribute, but a fun¬ damental one in my view is the neces¬ sary contrast between our political lib¬ erty and out' industrial absolutism. We are as free politically as any, nation can be, but'the position of the ordinary worker is the reverse of- free. The Worker has ‘his; voice in things political-, but in dealing with industrial problems the corporation is absolute. “ It isn’t the case of the individual Worker agairist the ordinary employer. The centralized corporation, with its enormous resisting power, is too nearly absolute. Even strong unions cannot cope with thei situation, and it has re¬ sulted? in a condition of inequality be¬ tween 1 the two forces.” Mr. Brandeis went on to say that the assumption of arr attitude of benevo¬ lence toward labor would not be a cure. ■ “ It might result in benevolent abso- ! lutism,” he said, “ but it would b® abso- i lutism all the same. A powerful State has been created within the State, and there is a danger of injuring instead or i developing the worker’s manhood.' Mistakes of Labor. Later Mr. Brandeis enlarged on this idea and asked that the employer should take his employes into his confidence to a greater extent. He was speaking of the mistakes of labor, and said: “ They believe that the employers are making vast profits at the expense of ■' labor. Yet in many cases they are not making enough for safety. The worker - does not consider the amount of risk in- j volved in business, and how necessary j are large profits to cover losses. It would be a good thing if the employes chose some proper representative, who might understand how great is the chance of losing money in trying to make money. He should sit on the Board of Directors and learn what it means to make up one's mind to do this or that.” No amount of profit sharing, said Mr. Brandeis, would make up for such an ex¬ perience as that.’ Profit sharing was generally merely a sharing up of the proceeds, but not of responsibility. When the question of absented owner¬ ship was put to Mr, Brandeis, he said that be thought it impossible for men conducting several great enterprises 'to have sufficient knowledge of conditions to make them safe custodians of the rights of the workers. No busy man hdd the time to be Director in more than one institution, and it was astonishing how small a proportion of stock could give the control of a corporation. -Thus Mr. Brandeis told of one million-dollar company, in which, a lawsuit showed the President did not hold a Single share. Pie had sold out, and to qualify for re- election had to go into the market to buy, five shares. “ Many great corporations,” said Mr. Brandeis, ‘‘have resisted unionism on the ground that it' was un-American. They are, As likely as not, quite sincere In their view just as the Czar of Russia is sincere in -his view and can’t change it. All human experience has shown that no one with great power can be trusted to bring about great reforms. The State must come to Our- aid, hut it Is doubtful how much it can do. We must democratize our industry, but the ! great difficulty is the concentration of power. It has been said that mere size ] is not immoral, but business may be¬ come so great as to be a danger which no community can tolerate.” Regarding the Rockefeller and similar foundations, Mr. Brandeis said: “I have never questioned that these foundations rested upon the highest motives, but 1 have such belief in de- I mocracy that I have felt grave appre¬ hension of what 5 might' happen when these foundations passed out of the present hands to others, with less worthy motives. Danger in Big Foundations. " On the whole, they seem inconsistent ■with democratic aspirations, and indeed many have felt alarmed at the size of university endowments. But if these foundations do not grow too large and (powerful and are Counteracted by other influences such - as Federal regulation, they may do great good for humanity.” Commissioner Weinstock wanted to know what Mr. Brandeis thought were the great mistakes made by the employ¬ ers, and he replied that the first mis¬ take was ignorance. The employer seemed to think that labor was a mat¬ ter which" could be left to the Superin¬ tendent of his factory, and did not re¬ alize that it was the foundation on which he had to build. It was a mis¬ take to refuse to deal' with unions,even to the extent of seeing their business Ruined. On the other hand, the workers were far too willing to impute unworthy, motives to the employers. “-Nothing would conciliate capital more,” the witness continued, “ than an- emphatic declaration on the part of the unions in favor of increased produc¬ tion. If I were the member of a union I should endeavor to make union men so superior to non-union men that capital would prefer to employ them. Moreover, the unions should discipline feverely any union, which had been guilty of violence and declare that it 1 (was hurting -their common cause,” 1 “ Have you ever k.ppwn employers to discipline other employers for breaking’ a trade agreement?” asked Commis¬ sioner Garretson. “ Certainly,” replied Mr. Brandeis. 1 “ The garment, making; employers dis- ! ciplined and fined heavily some of the j employers who broke the protocol.” I Mr. Brandeis hajd no patience with the ■ employers who would not recognize' unions. “ It is foolish not to recognize them,” he said. “They are there: they exist; if you don't think they behave properly, make them behave properly. If you can’t recognize them as allies; recognize .them as belligerents.” The Witness considered that the re¬ fusal to recognize unions because they were not incorporated Was trivial. The main advantage in incorporation ,he con¬ sidered would be to the unions them¬ selves. He also realized that it was difficult for a union’s officials to bind its members as the President of a com¬ pany could pledge 1 the concern. The union was democratic, while the Presi¬ dent of the company mTfisumahJ v could control the majority of the- stock. But he thought the union officials should re¬ ceive as much discretion as possible. Legal regulation of labor conditions must be justified by experience, Mi-. Brandeis said, and its limits would dif¬ fer from time to time; so the minimum wage might be applied only in cases Where there was no other way to im¬ prove things. For example it had be¬ come almost a settled custom in certain trades to pay women less than a living wage. No union could remedy that but it was as justifiable to legislate about it for the good of the. community as to 1 H^marirl o frnm « TnonmA+i-..~ Takes Issue with Mr. Scliiff. When Commissioner, Garretson sug¬ gested 'that scientific.A management should be applied to the division of profits as well as to the use of labor, Mr. Brandeis answered promptly that there could be no science about the di¬ vision of profits. That was necessarily a matter of bargaining. He then took issue with Mr. Schiff’s denial of the control of the railroads of the country by a few large banking houses. “ The difference of statement concern¬ ing the power of the banks,” he said, “can be explained largely by a differ¬ ence of definition. The .control of the bankers does not mean that these indi¬ viduals can give direct orders that this must be done and this not done. It means that there is in existence a great power, which people believe,,; generally with reason, will be; pleased or dis¬ pleased, if certain things are done by the actual railroad managers,:’” Mrs. J. Borden Harriman wanted to know whether labor had anything to fear from unrestricted immigration. Mr. Brandeis admitted that it had. but he considered this coiild be remedied, not by general exclusion, but by the exclu¬ sion or restriction of certain classes of immigrants. The commission will resume its hear¬ ings tomorrow morning at TO o’clock, when John D. Rockefeller. Jr., Jerome D. Greene Ivy L. Lee, and A. Barton Hepburn will be ‘ the witnesses. BRANDEIS FOR WAG E BOARDS- Tells City Club His Views of Mini¬ mum Pay Problem. Minimum wage legislation as a benefit to society was discussed at the fifth Saturday luncheon of the, City Club yes¬ terday by Louis D. Brandeis, Dr. How¬ ard B. Woolston of the New York State Factory Investigating Commission, and other speakers. A prescribed minimum wage for employes'was indorsed by all, but they urged it, not as.a philanthropic measure for its immediate beneficiaries , so much as a step to he taken by so- ! ciety for its own betterment and pro¬ tection. Mr. Brandeis advocated the adminis¬ tration of the minimum wage remedy ( in homoeopathic doses that would not , shock the social' system. He was op- * posed to revolution, he said, and in favor of a gradual adoption of a system of i minimum wage regulation that would be 1 accepted by business as it progressed. ! “ Any legislation designed to introduce i changes has to be entered upon and its machinery must he applied with con¬ sideration for things as they exist,” he | said. “ Now. a wage board could be : created : to take up the question in any ! State and make an individual investiga- I tion of wage conditions in every, industry and locality, for in fixing a minimum 1 wage the locality and the occupation , must be taken into consideration. Thus, a girl working in a factory does not, need as high a wage as a woman, work¬ ing in a department store, because the saleswoman has expenses of dress that the factory worker does not have; and ft girl working in a small town would not have the expenses of cat fare and food that must be met by a city worker.” Dr. Woolston told of his work as an investigator, in which he said he/ had found that many skilled women work¬ ers made less than $10 a week and that at least 2,000 “ low skilled ” workers in the State earned less than $3 a week. “ One half of the workers in the Tow I skilled trades in New York State do not earn enough to enable them to live independently and support families prop¬ erly,” he declared. Underpayment could be corrected best by legislation, he thought, and a general rise in low wages would not add mate¬ rially to the cost of production or the burden upon the consumer. “ To increase the wages of 2,000 work¬ ers in a certain candy factory from an average of $5.75 a week to an aver¬ age of $8 a week,” he said, “would mean that the employers would have to add 18 cents more a hundred pounds to the cost of their product.” The discussion was limited to a mini¬ mum wage for women ‘ workers, : as it seemed agreed that the first step should be taken to relieve their condition. The luncheon was attended by about 300 per¬ sons. John Martin, Chairman of the City Club’s Committee on Labor Prob¬ lems, presided. maw YORK, MONDAY, JAN. 25, 1915. CLOSED SHOP OR OPEN SHOP? Ford and Gompers. Closed sl$pp and open shop. Truly, the contrast of their testimony before the Industrial Commission is interesting. Both are the extremes of their types, of the capitalist and the labor leader. To that extent neither, is fairly repre¬ sentative," bnt rather an ideal toward Which social movements would tend if guided by them. Where is the capitalist who would not like to make dividends of 1,250 per cent., on the highest wages paid in the world, for the cheapest product of the sort in the world? Where is the wage earner who is not dazzled by the conditions described by the employer who knows nothing about unions or tariffs? It is not possible to think that this is an example possible of imitation by all capitalists. Never¬ theless it is an example of accom¬ plishment under- capitalism which should temper the condemnations of the system rather than of abuses under the system. When such happi¬ ness and prosperity of classes con¬ sidered as natural enemies has actu¬ ally been achieved it ought to be easier for it to be repeated. On the other, hand, what has union¬ ism to offer In comparison if carried to the extreme represented by Mr. Gompers? A shorter workday, an average wage,. better ' conditions of working, are all legitimate objects of attainment. No one would grudge them to labor if fairly earned. But it is fair to remark the price which Is paid for them under the rule of Mr. Gompers. They ape not earned, Tshey are extorted. It is a pity! that more employers do not see the profit in them, like Mr. Ford, but they come too high when attained in the Gompers manner. Unions operated along the Gompers lines offer no prizes either to the wage earners or to capitalists, or to society, which comprises both, and consumes their Joint product. “Abandon hope who enter here,” might be written above the portals of the Federation. The World’s prizes lie outside its jurisdic¬ tion, which confines itself to a dead level of mediocrity and the produc¬ tion of class consciousness instead of regard for the common weal. Mr. Ford employs anybody, con¬ victs and well-meaners of no partic¬ ular capacity, and makes better men of them. Gompersism keeps down the good men for the sake of the sub¬ standard earners. The idea may have Sts defenses, as a form of class char¬ ity, but it is Worked at a tremendous cost. Wages and charity both may toe paid out of the product of the open shop, but there is no surplus Jtt a closed shop. Wages and profits 2't N are both on a scale Which compels the closest management to keep alive. 1'he employer is deprived of the fund Jffdth which he might be generous, jnd society is deprived of the produc¬ tion which might be enjoyed outside of the closed shop. Actually the minority places its ban on the major¬ ity and injures all, including itself. It is needless to say that Mr. Ford conforms to the law, while Mr. Gompers defies and defiles it. He procures enactments of inequality and rebels at sentences upon himself and his associates. Dynamiters should go to jail, he says. Ought they not to b* expelled from the union offices to which they were elected after their conviction? Ought not the Federa¬ tion unions to purge their constitu¬ tions and by-laws of authorizations jj of offenses for which unionists have S been fined and imprisoned? The! answer of Mr. Gompers is that the ! acts Were not justly punished. Boy- j cotting is lawful, he says, under the law whose enactment was secured by the “union card group” in Congress, j But it is to be remarked that the Federation is not now running a boy- |j cott against either non-unionists or jj employers. If he were to attempt a boycott Mr. Gompers would discover Jj that, whereas Mr. Loewe had no remedy except to sue for damages, tinder the Clayton law he is entitled to injunctive relief against the do¬ ing of the damage. No unlawful act is legalized by the Clayton act, but there are additional remedies against acts previously unlawful. This contrast is not drawn in un¬ kindness to Mr. Gompers. Capitalists are indebted to him for strengthening their case against his sort of union-, ism. His misuse of his power has caused the abandonment of the “ un¬ fair list ” and restrained boycotting. His personal acts, and his policies, have resulted in the establishment of the right of injunctive relief and of punishment for contempt of court in industrial cases. The law Is stronger against labor than before his efforts began. The cause of labor in general will suffer so long as he is allowed to misrepresent it by appeals to social justice with a club. Capitalism is strengthened by such attacks, but they ought not to be encouraged for that reason. The purpose of the con¬ trast here drawn is to ask labor to consider what are its true ideals, either as Citizens or as wage earners. Will unionists allow Mr. Gompers to lead them further along a path which must be coUtested at every step, of will they enter the path of co-operation, of “ conspiracy ” with capital to reduce want by giving service as good as the money paid for it? 1 28 ROCKEFELLER JR. SHOWS VASTFOND HAS NO IMITATION ll Plenary Power of Foundation Revealed in Report to In¬ dustrial Commission. NO RESTRICTION ON CAPITAL Donor Reserves the Right to Direct the Expenditure of $2,000,000 Annually. DRIVE AT ITS LABOR INQUIRY Investigators, Asking About Any Curb on Mr. King, Are Told They Misconceive the Aim. IMPARTIALITY QUESTIONED President of Foundation Will Tes¬ tify Today—Full Text of His Exhaustive Statement. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., President of the Rockefeller Foundation, will take the stand today in the inquiry which is be¬ ing conducted in the City Hall by the Federal Commission on Industrial Rela¬ tions. He will answer questions con¬ cerning the Foundation’s purposes, meth¬ ods,, and origin. Fuller information on these topics has been furnished to the commission in re¬ ply to two questionnaires which were sent out to the Foundation within the last few weeks asking for detailed informa¬ tion about its aims, the funds at its dis¬ posal, and its operation. The answers forwarded to the commission were given out in pamphlet form yesterday by the Foundation. Total on Hand, §103,950,817. Some of the principal features of the Foundation’s reply follow: The total funds on hand on Dec. 1, 1914, were $103,950;817, of which $2,921,537 was unexpended income. Appropriations are made by the Board of Directors or the Finance Committee, but a condition appended by John D. Rockefeller to the original gift is that during his lifetime a part of the income, to amount to not more than' $2,000,000 a year, shall be de¬ votee “to such specific objects with¬ in the purposes of the Foundation ” as he may from time to time direct. The Foundation under its charter can deceive funds from any source, but the officers do not-expect further gifts. Most of its work is dope through contributions to other philanthropic agencies. Industrial Relations Work. The commission’s questions deal large¬ ly with the Industrial. Relations Division of the Foundation, under which William Lyon Mackenzie King, formerly Minister of Labor in the Canadian Cabinet, was selected to make a survey of all differ¬ ences in the industrial field. The investigation of these questions was stimulated by the Colorado strike troubles, but the Foundation is careful to explain: “ It cannot be too' clearly understood' that this inquiry is hot to apportion blame in present or past misunderstand¬ ings, nor to justify any 1 particular point of view; the sole purpose is construct¬ ively helpful, and questions of divergent policy or partiality in the investigation can have no place in such a work. The Foundation has felt that if it could work ■ out sound and substantial improvements in the relation of capital and labor it could hardly do anything better calcu¬ lated ‘ to promote the well-being of man 1 kind.’ for which purpose the Foundation was erected.” War oa the Hookworm. The Foundation gives considerable : space to the work of the International Health Commission, which has for its object the eradication of hookworm ; throughout the World. Another general activity which the commission is now taking up is the promotion of medical education and public health in China. “From the outset,’” s,ays the state¬ ment, “ the members of the Foundation j were agreed that it could probably ren- der more enduring service if, instead of making contributions to a large number . of miscellaneous objects, its funds were j primarily devoted to .promoting '/the j study of some of the more fundamental | human needs. .But a departure from I this general' policy would be • amply jus-I tified by the utilization of a part of the'! funds of the Foundation to assist in meeting emergencies where the urgency f of the need appeared to render such-aid imperative. The Belgian relief, necessi- j tated by the European war, is a case in !| point.” Other applications for specific work 1 have been favorably received by the I Foundation,, with the resuit that it has ■ pledged $10,000 a year for ten years to the American Academy in Rome and $20,000 a year for ten years to the New York Association for Improving the Con- dition of the Poor, for widows’ pensions, and has bought, at $225,000, a large tract of land in Louisiana for use as a reservation for wild fowl. Answers Fifty-five Queries. The booklet in which the Foundation has inclosed its answers to the two questionnaires is a work of-103 pages. It includes the specific answers to the twenty-nine questions asked by the com¬ mission in its first questionnaire and the twenty-six in the second, together with the charter, constitution, and by-laws of the Foundation, and a list of the Securi¬ ties which it owns; a summary of the qualifications of Mr. King for the study of the labor problem, and a schedule showing the attendance of the individual members at meetings of the Foundation. There are also two chapters from John D. Rockefeller’s “ Random Reminis¬ cences of Men and Events,” setting forth , i'-s views of philanthropy and charity; all the publicity material ever given out by the Foundation, editorials from-sev¬ eral magazines and newspapers on the change in form of the proposed charter; the. full text of the bills sumbitted to Con- 1 gress in the effort to obtain a Federal ' charter, and a schedule of the, publica¬ tions issued by the Rockefeller Sanitary j Commission for the Eradication of Hook- 1 worm Disease and the International Health Commission. Complete Text of Report. The complete questionnaires, with re¬ plies, are given as follows: ORGANIZATION. QUESTION NO. 1. Please furnish copies of constitution and by-laws. ANSWER. Copies of the charter, being Chapter 488 of the Laws of 1913 of the State of New York, and of the constitution and by-laws are hereto annexed-, marked re¬ spectively. Schedules A, B and C (see page 19, et seq.) QUESTION NO. 2. What boards, funds, commissions and Other organizations have been included under the Rockefeller Foundation? ' ‘ ANSWER. None. The Rockefeller Foundation is not a cbnsolidation of pre-existing or¬ ganizations, but is a separate and dis¬ tinct creation with; its own funds. QUESTION NO. 3. Who are the members of the present Board of Directors? (a.) For what terms do they serve? ANSWER. For the term expiring 1915: Harry Pratt Judson, Simon Flexner, Starr J. Murphy. _ For the term expiring 1916: John D. Rockefeller, John D. Rockefeller, Jr., Frederick T. Gates. For the term expiring 1917: Charles W. Eliot, Wickliffe Rose, Charles O. Heydt, Jerom© D. Greene, A. Barton Hepburn. , QUESTION NO. 4. 1 How and by whom will the future Di- s rectors be chosen? [| (a.) For what terms will they serve? ANSWER. “ New members, whether as successors to those named in the act of incorpora¬ tion or otherwise, and such additional members as they or their successors shall see fit to associate with them, shall be elected by ballot, either, at the annual meeting of the corporation or at a special meeting duly called for that purpose, by vote of a majority of the members of the corporation attending such meeting. “ Any member may withdraw from the corporation by a notice: in writing, to the. President or Secretary. The members shall be at all times divided into- three classes equal numerically, as nearly as may be, and the original members shall at their first meeting, or as soon there¬ after as may be convenient, be .divided into three classes, the members of the first class to hold their membership and office until the first anual meeting, the members of the second class until the second annual meeting, and the members of the third class until the third annual meeting, and in .'every case the member shall hold office after the expiration of his term until Ms suc¬ cessor shall be chosen. At each annual meeting the successors to those members whose term of office then expires shall he chosen for the term of three years and until their successors shall be chosen.” (Constitution, Article 1.) Election of Officers. . / QUESTION NO. 5. Who are the present Officers of the Foundation and its subsidiary organiza¬ tions? (a,> How were they chosen? (b.) For what terms do they hold office? ANSWER. • ’ _ " The present officers of the Founda¬ tion are: John D. Rockefeller, Jr., President; , Jerome D. Greene. Secre¬ tary; Louis G. Myers, Treasurer; Lef- ferts M, Dashiell, Assistant Treasurer. These officers, with the exception of the Assistant Treasurer, were chosen by ballot at ,the first meeting of the Foundation, held May 22, 1913, and re¬ elected; at the first annual meeting of the Foundation, held January 21, 1914, -in 'accordance with Article. IV of the constitution, which is as follows: | , “ OFFICERS. . ' “ The officers of the corporation shall consist, of, a President, Secretary, and Trg^^uter,' together with such bth^kfS* ; rlcffis as may be determined by the-ftyp, laws. These officers shall have 'the ! duties and exercise the powers assigned to them by this constitution s or bv the by-laws, or by resolutions adopted pur¬ suant to the authority of. this constitu¬ tion or the .by-laws. At each annual meeting of the corporation, or; in de¬ fault of election, at such meeting,' then at an adjournment thereof, or at any meeting duly called for that purpose, the corporation shall elect by ballot a President, Secretary, and Treasurer, and. it may choose such other officers as the by-laws shall from time to time pro¬ vide. All the officers, whether elected or appointed, shall hold office at the pleasure of the corporation, but in no case beyond the' time when their • re¬ spective successors shall be elected and accept office.” The Assistant Treasurer was appointed by the executive committee at its meet¬ ing on March 18, 1914. The Foundation has created, as a sub¬ sidiary organization, the International Health Commission, the purpose of which is to extend to foreign countries and peoples the work, of eradicating ! hookworm disease as opportunity offers, | and so far as practicable to follow up S the treatment and cure of this dis- ! ease with the establishment of agen¬ cies for the promotion of public sanita¬ tion and the spread of., knowledge of scientific medicine. The members of the International Health Commission are the members of the executive com¬ mittee of the Rockefeller Foundation, i viz: Simon Flexner, Jerome D. Greene, Charles O. Heydt, Starr J. Murphy, ; John D. Rockefeller, Jr., dnd Messrs. Charles W. Eliot, Frederick T. Gates, j William, Crawford Gorgas, David V, Houston, Walter H. Page, Wickliffe Rose, William H. Welch. I The officers of the International I Health Commission i-ate: John D. Rock¬ efeller, Jr., Chairman; Wickliffe Rose, Director General; John A. Ferrell, ! sistant Director General, j Those -officers were elected by the i members of the International Health j Commission at. its annual meeting, held : Jan. 20, 1914, for the term of one year, •j or until their Successors are elected. | FUNDS, CHARACTER AND CONTROL QUESTION NQ. 6. . „ Please furnish a statement, showing in detail the funds, securities, and other sources of income now held by the foundation : or by any subsidiary organ- ANSWER. See Schedule D (page 27). QUESTION NO. 7. By what committee, board, or person • fun< ^ s °f the corporation con¬ trolled ? a. Who controls, the. character of in¬ vestment or place of deposit of the funds? ANSWER.' The Finance Commitee controls the character of the investments. (By- Laws, Aft. 11.) ; The Executive Committee! controls the place of deposit of the funds (Bv- Laws, Art. V.) ^ ‘ b. On whose authorization and i jwhat manner are funds appropriated? ANSWER. Appropriations are made by the Board of Directors or the Executive Commit- t ^ e Iu 0n « the r e P or t and recommendation of the Secretary or any other officer or member of the Foundation. o- ? °n-whose warrants are funds paid ANSWER. “No bills shall be paid except those which have been incurred pursuant to Ja resolution of the’Corporation or under the authority of - the Executive Com¬ mittee, and such bills shall be paid only on a voucher approving the same for 5 payment and referring 'to the' specific resolution or authorization pur¬ suant to which they were respectively incurred, which voucher shall be signed by the President and the Secretary or such of the assistant secretaries as ' shall be designated by resolution of the Corporation or the Executive Commit¬ tee- m „ th . e ca se Of the absence or , disability of; either the President or Sec- i retary, by such other member of the i Corporation as such 'absentees shall designate in writing for that purpose. A current expense-account of not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) on deposit at any one time may be opened with such depository as may be designated by the Executive Com¬ mittee, which shall be subject to draft I upon, the signature of the cashier of! the Corporation who shall be bonded! I at the expense of the Corporation for ! such sum a,s the Executive Committee 1 shall fix.” (Art. V. of By-Laws, pars. 2 and 3.) d. What regulation governs the ex¬ penditure of the interest or limits the accumulation of the fund? e. What regulation controls the ex- I penditure of the principal? No Limit Prescribed. ANSWER. As regards the accumulation of the I i fund, tiie Charter of the Foundation provides: , “ The Corporation * * * shall have : the power to take and hold by bequest , J 'devise, gift, purchase, or lease, either ; absolutely or in trust for any of its ; 1 i purposes, any property, real of per¬ sonal, without limitation as to amount or value, except such limitation, if any, as the Legislature shall hereafter specifically impose; to convey such property, and to invest and reinvest any principal, and deal with and expend the income and principal of the corpo¬ ration in such .manner as in the judg¬ ment of the trustees will best promote its object. It shall have all the power and be subject to all the restrictions which now pertain by law to member¬ ship corporations created by special law so far as the same are applicable there¬ to and are not inconsistent with the provisions of this act,” As regards the expenditure of the principal and income, the only restric¬ tions are: I. The following provisions in Mf. John D. Rockefeller’s letter of March G, 1914: “It is a condition of this gift that from the income of the Foundation the sum of $2,000,009 annually, or as much thereof as I shall designate, shall be ap¬ plied during my lifetime to such specific objects within the corporate purposes of the Foundation as I may from time to time direct. If at the close of any fiscal year there shall remain any balance of the $2,000,000 which I have not thus des¬ ignated during that fiscal year, such balance shall be transferred to the gen- f ral unrestricted income of the P’oun- ation, to be used as the Foundation shall see fit. Subject to the foregoing provision, the principal as well as the income of this gift may be used in your discretion for any of the corporate pur¬ poses of the Foundation.” 2. By-Laws, Art. 8, as follows: “ No part of the principal of the funds of the Foundation shall be distributed except pursuant to a resolution passed by the affirmative vote of two-thirds- of all those who shall at the time be members of the Foundation at a special meeting held on not less than thirty days’ notice given in writing to each member of the Foundation, which shall state that the meeting is called for the purpose of considering a resolution to authorize the distribution of the whole or some part of .the principal of its funds.” QUESTION NO. 8. From what sources have* the funds of the Foundation hitherto been derived? ANSWER. The Foundation has received from Mr. John D. Rockefeller gifts of securities of the aggregate market value at the time of the gifts of $100,000,000. It has also received securities aggregating $48,- 000 from Laura S. (Mrs. John D.) Rock¬ efeller in trust, for certain specific pur¬ poses within the corporate purposes of the Board. Funds In Future. QUESTION NO. 9. From what sources 'are the 'future funds of the Foundation expected to be received? ANSWER. The Foundation has no expectation with regard to future funds, but under the terms of its charter it can receive gifts from any source. QUESTION NO. 10. In the divisions of the Foundation which have already been In operation (e. g. General Education Board), how, by whom and for wb,at periods have ap¬ propriations been made? a. Are such appropriations made as a lump sum to be used at the will of the directors or responsible head, or is there an appropriation for each specific line of work? ANSWER. This question'is evidently based upon a misunderstanding. As stated above, the Rockefeller Foundation is not com¬ posed of organizations which previously existed. The General Education Board is an entirely independent corporation, with funds of its own. In the case of the international Health Commission | lump sums, have been from time to time appropriated for the use' of the Com¬ mission, to be expended in accordance with appropriations duly made by the Commission or its Executive Commit.-. QUESTION NO. 11. By whom and in what manner are the estimates for necessary appropriations made? .ANSWER. The major' part of the work of the Foundation consists in making contri¬ butions to other agencies carrying on various philanthropic activities. Appli-. cations are made by. these agencies, and' 1 appropriations are made by the Board or the Executive • Committee on the report and recommendation of the Secretary or any other officer or member of the Foundation., In cases where estimates are necessary, : they are made by the persons recommending or presenting the matters. QUESTION NO. 12. After an appropriation for any par¬ ticular purpose has been made, to what restrictions or review is its expenditure subject, other than the ordinary, busi¬ ness and legal procedure to insure honesty in its control? ANSWER. The appropriations are in general made in the form of pledges to particu- | lar institutions for definite amounts, and, when once made, each pledge be¬ ll comes a. contract which is not subject j I to review by the Foundation, The ex- }> penditure of Other appropriations is 1 subject- to the ordinary business and |legal procedure, AGREEMENTS AND CONTRACTS. QUESTION NO. 13. What agreements or understanding, verbal or written, exist between the Foundation and Mr. King, regarding the scope of the work which is to be done uncler his direction, and the method of investigation which is to be pursued? (a.) By whom was the arrangement with Mr. King .made? ' vY ANSWER. Mr. King was appointed pursuant to a resolution adopted at the meeting of the Executive Committee of the Rockefeller Foundation held Aug. 13, 1914, of which the following is a copy: “Resolved, That William Lyon Mac¬ kenzie King be, and he is hereby, ap- I pointed .to make a comprehensive study of the problem of industrial relations at a salary of $ a year from Oct. 1, 1914.- “ It was, on motion, further “ Resolved, That the Secretary be au¬ thorized to approve, all bills for neces¬ sary traveling expenses and all other expenses, incurred by Mr. King in the pursuance of his work under the direc¬ tion .of the Executive Committee. The Secretary presented a-recommendation from Mr. King for the employment of Robert F. Foerster, Ph. D., to prepare a catalogue of individuals and organiza¬ tions, and a bibliography concerning the general subject of industrial relations. “ Whereupon it was, on motion, “ Resolved, That Dr. Foerster be ap¬ pointed to perform the service above described, the same to be completed on or about Oct. 1, 1914, for a total com¬ pensation of $ . “It was also further “ Resolved, That Dr. Foerster be au¬ thorized-to employ as his assistant L. C. Staples at a salary of $ a month, and to employ such further clerical as¬ sistance.; aitd incur- such I further . ex¬ penses incident to the preparation of the proposed catalogue and'bibliography as should meet the approval of Mr. King.” The amounts of the salaries have been omitted as being information of a con¬ fidential nature hot material to this inquiry. The action at this meeting had been preceded : by conferences ana corre- spondence between Mr. King and mem¬ bers of the Executive Committee ' of the Foundation, principally the .Presi¬ dent and Secretary, Messrs. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., and Jerome D. i Greene. In brief, Mr. King was invited! to conduct “ an investigation of tije. great problem of industrial relations, with a .special view to the, discovery of sortie mutual relationship, of, labor and I 1 capital which would afford to labor the protection it needs against oppression and exploitation, while at the Same time promoting its efficiency as strument of economic production. ,.... King was also invited- to outline a method of work and organization for the proposed investigation which would enable him to make the largest possi¬ ble contribution to the solution of the j problem. The wish of the Foundation | was expressed as follows: “ It is. our desire that the scope should be as broad and comprehensive as pos¬ sible, for only as a result of such an Intensive investigation can we hope to be in a position to make helpful sug¬ gestions looking toward the improve¬ ment in industrial relations.” Mr. King's Powers. There is no formal written contract between the Foundation and Mr. King, other than the . resolution appointing him. There are no verbal agreements or understandings. QUESTION NO. 14. Is there any provision in the agree¬ ment or understanding to assure Mr. King’s ability to go on with his plans, even if his policy should be divergent from that of the Directors? ANSWER. This and several subsequent questions appear to be based upon an entire mis¬ conception of the spirit arid purpose of the investigation which Mr. King has been retained to direct. Having in mind that hardly any relation in life is more far-reaching than the industrial rela¬ tion, and particularly having in view the growing tendency to misunderstand¬ ing and lack of harmony between em¬ ployers and employes, resulting in great injury to both as well as to the general public, the Foundation has felt that no subject could be more worthy of study, and that if it could work out sound and substantial improvements in the re¬ lation of capital ana labor, it could hardly do anything .better calculated “ to promote the well-being of man¬ kind,” for which purpose the Founda¬ tion was created. In no sense will the inquiry be local or restricted, or carried on with particular reference to any ex¬ isting situation or to conditions in any one country. The experience of the several countries of the world will be drawn upon. Mr. King has been selected as a per¬ son whose : broad sympathies and wide experience peculiarly qualify him to as¬ sist the Foundation in this endeavor. As indicated in the statement of the; Foundation at the time,the investigation of industrial relations was announced the work in spirit and method will be akin to that of the Rockefeller Insti¬ tute for Medical Research. In so far as Mr. King’s inquiries have to do with: industrial controversies, his attitude willj be that of a physician who investigates! the nature and causes of the pathologi-; cal conditions with which he has to: deal, with a view, if possible, to the dis- covery of effective remedies. It cannot be too clearly .understood that the pupose of this Inquiry is. not to apportion blame in present or past misunderstandings, nor to justify any particular point of view: the sole pur¬ pose Is to be constructively helpful. The final and only test of the work will be the degree to which the constructive suggestions growing out of the investi¬ gation actually Improve the relations between capital and labor. In a work ponceiyed and undertaken in such a spirit, any question of divergent pol¬ icies or of partiality in the investiga¬ tion can have no place. Mr. King has frotn the outset indicated to the Foun¬ dation his desire to avoid any form of organization which may cause it even to appear that his work is intended to rival or encroach upon the work of ex¬ isting organizations, and in particular the wotk properly assignable to Gov¬ ernment departments and agencies. It is his intention from time to time to re¬ tain experts arid seek expert advice in different fields included within the Scope of his study, and to employ such clerical assistance as may be necessary. In view of Mr. King’s experience, the conduct of the work will he left in his hands, subject merely to such confer¬ ence: with ,the officers of the 1 Founda¬ tion as may be desirable, and to a gen- : eral control by, the Foundation of the extent of the expenditure. Employed for One Year. : QUESTION NO. 15. ■ Upon what conditions • can the agree¬ ment with Mr. King be-terminated? ANSWER. , ’ ■ At Mr, King’s expressed wish, the pe¬ riod of his relationship to; the Founda¬ tion was limited to one year, begin¬ ning Oct. 1, 1914, with the hope and expectation expressed by the Founda¬ tion that his connection with it might continue thereafter indefinitely. , QUESTION NO. 16. What person, board, or committee controls the field, scope and method of Investigation? ANSWER. Mr. King as Director. QUESTION NO. 17. Has the Foundation or its subsidiary and affiliated organizations refused at any time to continue appropriations for. any piece > of .work or for any • investi¬ gation which had been agreed upon? ANSWER. No. PURPOSE AND PLANS. QUESTION NO. IS. What were the fundamental reasons and purposes which led to the consoli¬ dation and incorporation of the various Rockefeller benefactions? ANSWER. There has been no consolidation of the various Rockefeller benefactions. QUESTION NO. 19. Please outline briefly the work which' Is now'being: carried on by the subsid¬ iary departments or organizations which make up the Foundation, arid indicate as far as possible their general plans. ANSWER. As previously stated, the major part of the work of the Foundation con¬ sists in contributions to other agen-= cies carrying on various philanthropic activities. The work and plans of the International Health Commission and of the Industrial Relations Investiga¬ tion are described in answer to pre- j vious questions. The former is now carrying on work in the British West Indies, Central America,' Egypt, Cey- i Ion, the Malay States, and the Philip-: Dines. QUESTION NO. .20. What were the facts, reasons, and considerations which led to the estab¬ lishment of the Industrial Relations Division of the Foundation? ANSWER. For several years past Mr. John D. Rockefeller and his. advisers have had under consideration the establishment of an organization for social and eco¬ nomic research. Upon the establish¬ ment of the Rockefeller Foundation, one of the first matters which it consid¬ ered was the possibility of the' 1 organ¬ ization of such an institution, and a committee of leading economists and business men was created to consider whether r such an organization could wisely and profitably be established. This is referred to in the testimony of Mr. John D. Rockefeller, Jr.,' giver April 6, 1914, before the Sub-Commit¬ tee of the Committee on Mines and Mining of the House of Representatives (see Page 2,892 of their printed testi¬ mony). Impressed by Colorado Strike, While the general subject of economic research was under consideration, the industrial disturbances in Colorado Im¬ pressed the President of the Founda¬ tion^ with the great need and public importance of finding an effective means of preventing such conflicts and caused him to urge a far-reaching study of industrial relations as the most important immediate inquiry to which the Foundation could direct at¬ tention. In view of the passion aroused ih Colorado and the many di¬ vergent interests involved there, it was felt that the Foundation itself should not interfere in that situation, hut that it was of the utmost consequence that the root causes of that .and similar disturbances should be ascertained, and, if possible, removed, not only in Colorado but elsewhere. The Rockefeller Foundation is, more¬ over, a large owner of corporate securi¬ ties, and in that capacity is itself directly concerned in maintaining har¬ monious relations between the companies in . which it is .interested .and their em¬ ployes. It was therefore felt that if the foundation could work out, on a. basis compatible with sound economics, a substantial improvement in the relations between capital and labor, it would not only discharge its obligation as indi¬ rectly a large employer of labor, but would also, perform for the general pub¬ lic a greater social service than it could render along usual philanthropic lines. Realizing, that the success of such an en¬ deavor would depend almost entirely upon the character and experience of the person conducting the work, it ex¬ amined the field to see whether a suit¬ able person could be found. In this connection its attention was directed to Mr. King, and the officers determined that in view of his broad experience and high character, if his services could be secured they would recommend that the Foundation undertake a study of this subject. QUESTION NO. 21. If the Industrial Relations Division was authorized by resolution, please furnish a copy of the resolution. If not, please state by whom, at what time, and under what circumstances its es¬ tablishment was suggested and provided for. ANSWER. A copy of the resolution is set forth m answer to question No. 13. QUESTION NO. 22. Please outline, as far as possible, the questions in the field of industrial rela¬ tions to which the investigations of the Foundation may be directed. ANSWER. cide iS haS been left t0 Mr ’ Kin ® to rie- QUESTION NO. 23. What results does the Foundation ex- lationjf Division ? r ° m ”" s lniuatvM Definite Limits Avoided. ANSWER. xr rea v AMUSED BY SOME QUERIES Mot He, as Director, but Man¬ agement Is Responsible for Colorado Labor Policy. SCORES ON WITNESS TWICE Walsh Makes Him Admit He Has Failed to Inspect Properties— Quotes Letter on Strike. For five hours John D. Rockefeller, Jr., occupied the stand before the Fed¬ eral Commission on Industrial Relations in the City Hall yesterday. The audi¬ ence, which filled every corner of the Council Chamber, was in large part frankly hostile, and the questions were designed to fasten upon him and his father responsibility for the conditions which had led to the strike riots of the Colorado miners. But the witness con¬ sistently maintained the attitude which he had expressed, at the beginning of the session in a formal statement. As a stockholder, his father was re¬ sponsible practically for only the elec¬ tion of the Directors. As a Director, he was himself responsible for the choice of the executive; officers of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company and for its general policies, especially the financial matters. But as for the handling of the labor, that was a ques¬ tion directly for the executive officials, and on these matters the Directors could do little but endeavor to influ¬ ence the active managers. $24,000,000 in Colorado. So Mr. Rockefeller showed that in mere book value his father so far had lost nearly $5,000,000 of $24,000,000 he had put into the Colorado company, and that when the returns his in¬ vestment had earned were •• reckoned, they would be. found to be about 3V» per cent, less than he' could have ob¬ tained by leaving Ills money in a sav¬ ings bank. As for the financial policy the witness had supported, so much money had been turned back into , the property in building it up and increas¬ ing the - wages - of the workmen, that Mr. Rockefeller was afraid the Direc¬ tors might have been a little unjust to the minority stoekholdehs. Mr. Rockefeller in his preliminary statement cheerfully - granted to labor the right to organize, but, felt that as a mere Director of the ’Fuel and Iron Company he could not go into the details of its conditions; in, Goloradp. Pressed by Chairman Walsh to say how he knew about the way the miners were treated. Mr. Rockefeller pointed to cor¬ respondence which. passed between the Directors in New York and Denver as proof of the-interest he always had taken in the men, and of the way in which .be had tried to swing his influ¬ ence. The witness declined throughout to express himself o)n large questions of social policy on the ground that he had neither the knowledge nor the time to solve them. Of actual facts about ColO' rado conditions he would give no opin¬ ion on the ground of unfamiliarity. Indirect and Good-Humored. As the session progressed Chafrman Walsh’s questioning became more di¬ rect, but Mr. Rockefeller never wavered from his entire self-possession and court¬ eous humor. When he read his long pre¬ liminary statement he gave just suf¬ ficient emphasis to make his points, and his clear, self-contained enunciation showed not a trace of nervousness. As he replied to his examination he never permitted himself to be hurried into an answer that might not state his po¬ sition correctly. Rarely did he reply di¬ rectly, and rarely did he accept the Chairman’s statement of a question as accurate. Nearly always he restated the proposition to suit himself, but with¬ out any hesitation or hunting for words. At times too, a trace of humor stole into the answers. ‘Chairman Walsh was deadly serious throughout, but the wit¬ ness could not repress the vestige of a smile when he was asked to give off¬ hand a list of the corporations in which the Rockefeller interests had substan¬ tial holdings, or when he remarked that he unfortunately had at times for long periods together to work seven days a W Mr." Rockefeller was well guarded. Not only did he go to the City Hall attended by one or two men, but the Police De¬ partment sent uniformed men and a dozen detectives to be sure that nothing Untoward happened at the hearing. Lieut. William Kennel, the Mayor’s own bodyguard, for once transferred his services from the Mayor’s office to the Council Chamber, and a close watch was kept on its ante-room as soon as Mr. Rockefeller had arrived. Greeted by Mother Jones. • It was known that many of the I. W. W. and advanced Socialists were in the audience, and it was believed that some of the Colorado strikers, who. wish to testify, were ‘ attending, but no one in¬ terrupted the testimony. Once there was a general laugh, but Chairman Walsh spoke about it so sternly that it was not repeated. Mother Jones, the Colorado agitator, was waiting for Mr. Rockefeller at the ehd of the afternoon hearing. As he went down the circular stairway of the City Hall, with guards before and behind him, she stopped 'him and introduced herself. “We ought to be working together,” Mr. Rockefeller said to her as he shook han,ds. “ Come out to Colorado with, me, and I’ll show you what we can do,” she re¬ plied. Mr t Rockefeller laughed and walked on, and Mother Jones explained, to the group 'About her that she realized there was a good deal to be said from the em¬ ployee’s poipt of view and she quite sympathized with the young man. All the Commissioners were in then- places when, Mr. Rockefeller took the stand. Asked by Chairman Walsh to describe his business, he said it was hard to define. He spent a good deal of time in directing the foundations estab¬ lished by his father and in looking after investments. Then he asked that the questions answered by the Rockefeller Foundation and published yesterday be included in the record, and said that he had prepared a statement for himself. Mr. Rockefeller’s Statement. Mr. Rockefeller’s complete statement follows: New York, Jan. 25. The commission has asked my views as to What exteht the stockholders and Directors of a coporation are responsi¬ ble for the labor conditions which exist in it and for the social conditions which are produced; how generally and in what maimer sUch responsibili¬ ties are assumed by stockholders and Directors; and in actual practice how, and upon what general basis, the labor policies of large corporations are deter¬ mined. The responsibility of stockholders is practically limited to the election of Directors. They have no power to elect officers, to employ labor, to make contracts or to intervene directly in the management of the business. A large stockholder, however, is able to exercise considerable moral influence over the Directors and officers and is responsible for exercising that ■,influ¬ ence properly, ; The Directors are responsible for the general conduct of the business; they have'the power to elect officers and to determine the policies of the business. All large business has to be organized. The responsibility has to be divided and vested in various officers, and the officers have to be given powers com¬ mensurate with their responsibilities. These responsibilities are in general divided in such a way that the Direc¬ tors attend principally to the finan¬ cial affairs of the corporation, leav¬ ing the actual condupt of operations to the officers. Labor conditions, so far as they are within the Control of a corporation, are matters for which the officers of the corporation ate primarily respon¬ sible and with which they, by reason of their experience and their first¬ hand acquaintance With the facts, are best qualified to deal. Not Directors’ Work. Labor policies are initiated and de¬ termined by the officers, whose ef¬ ficiency is largely measured by the harmony and good will which they are able to maintain between the com¬ pany and its employes. It is not ' customary to submit labor policies to a board of Directors for action. Con¬ ference regarding them is often had with the Directors or Executive Com¬ mittee at the instance of the officers and suggestions are made to the lat¬ ter by both these bodies. A business to be successful must not only pro¬ vide to labor remunerative employ¬ ment under propel- working Condi¬ tions, but it must also render useful service to the community and ea£n a fair return on the money invested. .The adoption of any policy toward labor, however favorable it may seem, which results in the bankruptcy of the corporation and the discontinu¬ ance of its work, is as injurious to labor which is thrown out of em¬ ployment as it is to the public which loses the services of the enterprise, and to the stockholders whose capital is impaired. Social- conditions surrounding an in¬ dustry depend upon many factors other than labor conditions. The re¬ sponsibility of a corporation located in a thickly settled and highly or¬ ganized community depends upon the relative importance of the corporation to the other factors in the community. Where the activities of a corporation are carried on in new and undevel¬ oped sections of the country, social conditions are largely influenced by the attitude of the corporation and its officers, and the corporation is re¬ quired to provide for many things which in a more settled community would be taken care of by the com¬ munity as a whole. Since these questions have a special significance in so far as I am con¬ cerned, because of events in Colorado, I feel that I owe it to the commis¬ sion to make a statement in refer¬ ence thereto which will help to fur¬ ther answer the questions asked. Any one who has followed the con¬ troversy which has arisen out of the Colorado situation wiil have observed that no effort has been spared to make it appear that I have attempted to exercise a kind of absolutism over the coal industry in Colorado and particularly that I have sought to dictate a policy cf non-recognition of unions. An attitude toward industry and toward labor such as is here im¬ plied is so abhorrent to me person¬ ally and so contrary to the spirit of my whole purpose and training that I cannot allow these allegations to pass unnoticed without at least out¬ lining my responsibilities as I have viewed them and my obligations as I have sought to discharge them. His Attitude Toward Unions. While it has been Baid that I have exercised an absolute authority in dictating to the management of the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company, it has also been said that I have been too indifferent, and that as a Director I should have exercised more authori¬ ty. Clearly, both cannot be true. What are thfe facts? First, with reference to my atti¬ tude toward labor unions: I believe it to be just as proper and advan¬ tageous for labor to associate itself i into organized groups for the ad¬ vancement of itfi legitimate interests, 1 as for capital to combine for the same //object. Such association^ of labor manifest themselves in promoting i collective bargaining, in an effort to secure better working and living I conditions, in providing machinery | whereby grievances may easily and without prejudice to the individual be taken up with the management. I Softietimes they provide benefit fea¬ tures, sometimes they seek to in¬ crease wages, but whatever their spe¬ cific purpose, so long as it is to promote the well-being Of the em¬ ployes, having always due regard for the just interests of the employer and the public, leaving every worker free to associate himself with such groups or to work independently, as he may choose, I favor them most heartily. Combinations of capital are some¬ times conducted in an unworthy man¬ ner, contrary to law and in disregard of the interest both of labor and the public. Such combinations cannot be too strongly condemned nor too vigor¬ ously dealt with. Although cornbina- ations of this kind .are the exception, such publicity is generally given to their unsocial acts that all combina¬ tions of capital, however rightly man¬ aged or broadly beneficent, are there¬ by brought under suspicion. Likewise, it sometimes happens that combinations/ of labor are conducted without just regard 'for the rights of the employer or the public, and meth¬ ods and practices adopted which, be¬ cause unworthy or unlawful, are de¬ serving of public censure. Such or¬ ganizations of labor bring discredit and suspicion upon other organiza¬ tions which are legitimate and useful, just as is the case with im¬ proper combinations of capital, and they should be similarly dealt with. I should be the last, however, to allow the occasional failure in the working of the principle of-the organization of labor-to prejudice me against the prin¬ ciple itself, for in' that principle I strongly believe. In the further development of the organization of labor and of large business, the public interest, as well as' the interest of labor and capital alike, will, it seems to me, be best ad¬ vanced by whatever stimulates every man to do the best work of which he is capable; by a fuller recognition of the common interest of employers and employed; and by an earnest effort to dispel distrust and hatred and to pro¬ mote good-will. Where Responsibility Lies. As respects the question of the rec¬ ognition or non-recognition of labor unkons In Colorado, my attitude has been in conformity with the views I have expresecl relative to the responsi¬ bilities of stockholders, Directors, and managers. Thie hiring and discharging of men and ifiie framing of agree¬ ments as- resp&Cts the same are func¬ tions which I Kjave regarded as right¬ fully belonging) to the management, and not to thfe stockholders or Di¬ rectors. The Colorado Fuel and Iron Company has qeen managed on this principle. The decision of the officers with respect to the recognition of the union was reached without any con¬ sultation or communication with me, 'and I had no knowledge of their deci¬ sion Until after the strike had been declared. The correspondence between myself and the officers of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company during the strike has, been produced before this commis¬ sion and is now public. If one thing more than another is shown by the letters exchanged, it is that, as re¬ spects conditions of employment and the interest of the company’s employes, I have sought to inform myself and have not hesitated to make suggestions looking toward more adequate repre¬ sentation on the part of the employes and participation by them in the de¬ termining of matters ^pertaining to their working conditions. It is ,not less apparent, however, that I have studiously avoided anything that might afford ground, either to the employes, the management, or the public, for the belief that iii any' particular I was seeking to dictate a policy or to arbi¬ trarily control any situation. The only coal property in Colorado In which we are in any way inter¬ ested is the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company. In addition to this com¬ pany, there are many other coal min¬ ing companies : in that State, in none of which either we or the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company have any inter- ! est whatsoever, and a large number of these companies were involved in the : strike. For me to have attempted to 4 iictate a policy or control the situa- jLCion would have meant an assumption of authority far beyond what the in- i vestment which I represent in the Col- ! orado Fuel & Iron Company would i have justified, and, if tolerated by ! the management of that company, i would have been resented by the other companies involved in the ,dispute. Colorado Profits Small. Since we first acquired an interest in the Colorado Fuel & Irop Company, | in 1902, the company has paid out in wages to its employes over. $92,000,000. 5 During the same period, we have re- i ceived dividends amounting to $371,000 1 on our investment in the company’s I capital stock. Therefore, our stock | interest in the Colorado Fuel & Iron | Company has yielded a return of about • B two-thirds of one per cent, per annum ! on an actual cash investment of about $6,000,000. It should be stated that we hold, in addition to the stocks above mentioned, a block of bonds, but . that our entire investment in the I stocks and bonds of the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company has. yielded during a period of twelve years, not more than 3 V 2 per cent., per annum. Yet during that time, instead ot exploiting the industry, as has been frequently stated, we have supported a policy pf development by devoting surplus earn¬ ings to improvements, thereby increas¬ ing employment, and generally extend¬ ing the business, father than paying 1V In & testifying last year before the Congressional Committee . which m- vestigated the Colorado strike, 1 Mr. James Dalrymple,. Coal Mine Inspector of the State of Colorado,_ said: “I believe it fair to give credit to those operators who have co-operated with this department in making im¬ provements recommended beyond tne requirements of the present mining law. In acknowledging the conces¬ sions made by them, it must be further added that there is . no au¬ thority embodied in the law by which these conceded improvements could have been enforced, no matter how essential they were to protect the life and health of the employes. The Colorado Fuel and Iron Company ranks first in making improvements not compulsory or demanded by the law; it 'complied cheerfully with most of our recommendations.” Doubtless mistakes have been made and conditions are still imperfect. I have no desire to defend any condi¬ tions that are juMly subject to criti¬ cism; I only ask that the responsi¬ bility for them be apportioned fairly. The problem how is for all concerned to develop increasingly good will and to improve conditions as far as may be possible. To that end my thoughts j and activities have for som© time been devoted. Distressed l»y Sti*ilse. As to the strike itself, its many dis¬ tressing features have given me the deepest concern. I frankly confess that I felt there was something funda¬ mentally, wrong in a condition of af¬ fairs which rendered possible the loss of human lives, engendered hatred and bitterness, and brought suffering and privation upon hundreds of human beings. Without seeking to apportion blame, I determined that in so far as lay within my power I would seek means of avoiding the possibility of similar conflicts arising elsewhere, or in the same industry in the future. It was in this way that I came to recom¬ mend to my colleagues in the Rocke¬ feller Foundation the instituting of a scries of studies into the fundamental problems arising out of industrial re¬ lations, which resulted in securing the services of Mr. Mackenzie King, for¬ mer Minister of Labor of Canada, to direct the studies. The correspondence will show that, , in addition to having taken steps as early as the beginning of June last to secure Mr. King’s services, I also sought and obtained advice with re¬ spect to machinery ror the prevention and adjustment of industrial differ¬ ences, to which I invited- the consider¬ ation of the officers of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. In early Au¬ gust I wrote the President of the com¬ pany, forwarding, with my indorse- , Mient, a letter from Mr. King, written in answer to my request, outlining a plan previously discussed to establish: “ A board on which both employers and employes are represented, and before which, at stated intervals, questions affecting conditions of. em¬ ployment can be discussed and griev¬ ances examined.” In reply to this communication the President of the company indicated that measures of the kind I had sug¬ gested were in contemplation, but that their adoption while the strike .was on would only serve to embarrass their successful introduction. He fur¬ ther indicated that, when the strike was terminated, steps would be taken immediately to secure to the employes of the company a, more direct repre- . sentation of their views as regards grievances and ■ conditions affecting their employment. The strike, was called off Dec. 10, 1914. On Dec. 16 David Griffiths, for¬ merly State Goal Mine' Inspector of Colorado, was appointed an inter¬ mediary between the company and its employes, respecting matters of mu¬ tual interests. , Notice to tiie Miners. On Jan. 5 a notice was posted at all the company’s mines inviting the em¬ ployes at each of the mines to as¬ semble in mass meeting to select by ballot one representative to every ,250 employes in each camp, to represent the men at a joint meeting- of them¬ selves • and ...the executive officers of the company in Denver, “ for the pur¬ pose of discussing matters of mutual concern and of considering means of more effective co-operation in main¬ taining fair and friendly relations.” In 'the published notice of these , meetings, it was stipulated that in ! order that the men might feel the greatest freedom in making their, se¬ lection, they should choose their own Chairma-n and neither Superintend¬ ents nor pit bosses should attend. The notice added: ‘‘The person se¬ lected to attend the. Denver confer¬ ence shall be the duly accredited rep¬ resentative of the employes, riot only at the first joint irieeting, but at all subsequent joint meetings and in all matters of co-operation between the company and its employes, until the employes in like meeting shall desig¬ nate some other person to represent therm It i§, therefore, highly impor- tant that the employes choos® with the utmost care the one of their number in whom they have most confidence.” I b&ve received, from the President of the company, a telegram inform¬ ing me that this joint conference was held at Denver on the 19th inst., that the meeting had proved most satisfac¬ tory to all concerned, and that its spirit had convinced the management that it would lead to more active coj- operation between the company and its employes in the future. Thus, it will be Seen that the com¬ pany has already taken steps to ini¬ tiate a plan of representation of its employes. It is my hope arid belief that from this will develop some per¬ manent machinery which will insure to the employes of the company, through representatives of their own selection, quick and easy access to the officers, with reference to any grievances, real or assumed, or with reference to wages or other conditions of employment. In the improvement of industrial Conditions in the State of Colorado, which all hope for, I am sure that the friendly co-operation of the com¬ mission of which Mr. Seth Low is Chairman, recently appointed by the President of the United States, will be of assistance to all the mining com¬ panies of the State. Shortly after this commission was appointed and following conferences had at his in¬ vitation, I wrote Mr. Low on Dec. 30th, asking him tb assure the Presi¬ dent of my desire and purpose to co¬ operate with the commission which, he had appointed. The Ultimate Object. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, quite apart from any particular situation, may I express in utter frankness the views which as an individual and a citizen, I hdld toward the problems into which your commission has been appointed to inquire? I believe that the ultimate object of all activities in a republic should be the development of the manhood of its citizens; that such manhood can be developed to the fullest degree only under conditions of freedom for the individual, and that industrial enterprises can and should be conducted in accordance with these principles. I believe that a prime consideration in the carrying on of industry should be the well-being o£ the men and women engaged in it, and that the soundest industrial policy is that which has constantly in mind the welfare of the employes as well as the making of profits, and which, when the necessity arises. Subordi¬ nates profits to welfare. In order to live, the wage-earner must sell his labor from day to day. • Unless he can do this, the earnings from that day’s labor are gone fore- ever. Capital can defer its returns temporarily in the expectation of future profits, but labor cannot. If, therefore, fair wages and reasonable living conditions cannot otherwise be provided, dividends inust be deferred, or the industry abandoned. I believe that a corporation should be deemed to consist of its stockholders, Direc¬ tors, officers and employes; that the real interests of all are one, and that neither labor nor capital can per¬ manently prosper unless the just rights of both are conserved. I further believe that, in matters pertaining to industrial relations, the Public, quite as much as the parties engaged in industry, is entitled to con¬ fidence and Consideration. ' Industrial relations are essentially human rela¬ tions, and human relations should be not less the concern of the State as a whole than of individuals engaged in industry. My appreciation of the con¬ ditions surrounding wage earners and my sympathy With every endeavor to better these conditions are as strong as those of any man. . I believe it to be the duty of every citizen to do all within his power to improve the condi¬ tions under which men work and live. I believe that that man renders the greatest social service Who so co-oper¬ ates in the organization of industry as to afford to the largest number of men the greatest opportunity for Self-de¬ velopment, and the enjoyment by every man of those benefits which his own work adds to the Wealth of civilization*' Ir, with the responsibilities I have and the opportunities given me, I am able to contribute toward promoting the well-being of my fellowmen, through the lessening of injustice and the alleviation of human suffering, I shall feel that it has been possible to realize the highest purpose of my life. Caii’t Remember All Investments, Mr. Rockefeller, under examination, began by stating that he was a Director in only three companies—the Merchants’ Fire Association, the Manhattan Rail¬ way Company, and the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. He had resigned recently from the Delaware, Lacka¬ wanna & Western Railroad Company and the American Linseed Company. He smiled slightly as he discouraged the Chairman from pressing for a list of all the corporations in which he and his father and their philanthropies had sub¬ stantial interests, and Mr. Walsh took refuge by asking what basic industries, such a| lumber, oil, and mines, they had invested in. “ The railroads are very numerous,” Mr. Rockefeller replied. “ There are a number of oil securities. No timber, so far as I remember, and I don’t recall any amount of mining shares. The list is rather long and I don’t keep it fresh in my memory.” Chairman Walsh wanted the witness to explain what Were the Colorado In- dustrial Company and the Colorado Holding' Company. Mr. Rockefeller said he would look them up. They were subsidiaries of the Colorado Fuel and IrOn Company, which was the result of an amalgamation of smaller concerns, and they had been useful in work of re¬ organization. Chairman Walsh was rather stern as he bade Mr. Rockefeller find out for the commission what the Colorado In¬ dustrial Company was and wherein its stock had any value. , Switching to Mr. Rockefeller’s concep¬ tion of the duties of a director, Mr. Walsh asked him what he did on the ' three boards to which he belonged. The Merchants’ Fire Insurance Com- j pany had its monthly meetings, which he attended, said the witness. The Man¬ hattan Railway Company had nothing ' to do but see that the Interborough lived up to its lease of the elevated lines. “ The financial condition of the Colo¬ rado Fuel & Iron Company,” Mr; Rocke¬ feller continued, “required careful at- : tention. Constant thought for months put it on a sound basis. Then the meet¬ ings in New York were discontinued, and the directors met only in .Denver. Of course, the New York directors can¬ not attend these, but under the by-laws when there is not a quorum of Western directors the minutes may be sent to the . Eastern directors for their signatures.” His Father’s Staff. Next arose the question of the organ¬ ization of the personal staff of Mr. Rockefeller, Sr. Jerome D. Greene has just resigned from it to devote himself entirely to the work of the Rockefeller Foundation. Ivy Lee was appointed in his place, and Mr. Lee, Starr J. Murphy and John D. Rockefeller, Jr., make up the staff. F. T. Gates has resigned and much to Mr. Rockefeller's regret will not accept a.salary, but Mr. Murphy and Mr. Lee are paid. “ I do not receive a salary,” added Mr. Rockefeller, with one of his little smiles. Regarding the manner in which Mr. Lee, who was the assistant to the President of the Pennsylvania Railroad and had been in charge of the publicity work of that system, cahie to join the Rockefeller forces, the witness said: “ It was quite a simple mattpr. We felt we were not getting proper repre¬ sentation concerning facts in Colorado. Our policy had been silence and of late years it had begun to seem unwise. The public is entitled to know what is going on. So I decided to find the best man to help us and I Was. fold of Mr. Lee.” Mr. Lee obtained leave from the Pennsylvania Company, and last Sum¬ mer Undertook the publicity work for the operators in Colorado, but Mr. Rock- ' efeller carefully explained that he (Mr. Lee) was responsible merely for the method of publication as the accuracy. of the facts was the Directors’ business. Mr. Walsh Wanted to know how this campaign was. financed. “ The cost of sending out the infor¬ mation,” said Mr. Rockefeller, “ Was paid by the operators. My father paid Mr. Lee $1,000 a month, and I do not know if the operators will reimburse him for any of this.” Mr. Walsh put MF. Rockefeller through a rigorous cross-examination on the question Of Mr. Lee and his ac¬ tivities, but obtained little more infor¬ mation. It was Mr. Lee who had sug- : gested the issue of “ bulletins ” con¬ cerning the strike, and Mr. Rockefeller said he would never presume to dictate to Mr. Lee how to get the publicity in which he was an expert. Describing the position which Mr. Lee had held since Jan. 1, Mr. Rockefeller threw a light on the Workings of the ” personal staff.” Mr. Lee has stepped into Mr.. Greene’s position on the board of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company and the Western Maryland Railroad Company as Mr. Rockefeller, Sr.’s, rep¬ resentative, with qualifying Stock trans¬ ferred to his name. “ He has no official connection with the Rockefeller Foundation, but our of¬ fice staff is a Sort of family affair. We talk over all sorts of things of common interest, and he can exert just such an influence over the Foundation as any competent disinterested individ¬ ual with whom we might confer.” Investigation Trips Given Up. Chairman WalSh took up the persoh- nel of the Rockefeller Foundation Board and showed that there were three links between that and the directorate of the .Colorado Fuel and Iron Company—Mr, Rockefeller himself, Jerome D. Greene, and Starr J. Murphy. “ As a Director, what information have you as to Colorado labor condi¬ tions?” asked Mr. Walsh. ‘‘I have never known a Director who received such information,” replied the witness. “I do not. As far as possible i I visit the plants and learn about their i conditions affecting labor.” Mr. Walsh jumped at this and made Mr. Rockefeller confess he had not found it possible to do any such visiting in 1913 and 1914, although he suggested that he might have nerformed his duty as a Director Of the Manhattan Rail¬ road Compahy in some sort by occa¬ sional rides on the elevated. “ Have you ever been to the Colorado ; mines? ” demanded Mr. Walsh. “ YeS; several times in the earlier days. I went about quite extensively in those days, but I have not visited Colorado in the last ten years.” “ HaVe you had any formal reports oh labor conditions in these ten years? ” “ There has been no formal reports, but ihuch correspondence. That is the way we get Our information.” Mr. Walsh asked for all correspond¬ ence in 1913 and 1914. After the luncheon adjournment, Mr. Rockefeller presented a statement of his father’s interest in the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. He had paid $24,- 190,818 in cash twelve years ago for stock, the market Value of which today was $19,200,189, showing a loss of $4,- 990,629. In addition he had $376,000 of the 6 per cent, general mortgage bonds and $14,450,000 of the Colorado Indus¬ trial Company’s 5 per cent, bonds. H# did not recall that there ever had been a default on the bond interest, .. Mr. Walsh aimed at bringing home the responsibility for labor conditions. Mr. Rockefeller thought,, there could not be any ih small Investments which might be made today, but parted with next year. He admitted owning 40 per cent, of the Fuel Company’S stock. “Then you have control,’’ said Mr. Walsh. “ Not the stock control.” “ But practically the absolute control, the power to select officers.” Never Tried to Dictate. “I have never tried to dictate,” said Mr. Rockefeller, again with his gentle smile. “ I presume if the stockholders were convinced of the Wisdom of a policy the fact that we favored It would not make it more difficult to carry it.” “Do you know that the Fuel Com¬ pany, the Victor American and the Rocky Mountain Coal. Company own 66 per cent, of the mining properties of the State? ” asked Mr. Walsh. “If I have seen that statement, it has not remained in my mind.” “ If you have potential control of a corporation, would you not inquire con¬ cerning the labor conditions? ” Mr. Rockefeller took refuge in a long explanation. Potential control was a very nebulous condition to talk about. When the Rockefeller Foundation made investments of from $100,000 to $500,000, they were too small to justify going into the management details of the com¬ panies, but When his father’s invest¬ ments were large enough to warrant personal representatives on the direc¬ torates, then he would consider the labor conditions. Chairman Walsh, coached by Basil Manley, late of the Labor Bureau of Washington, pressed Mr. Rockefeller hard regarding the Colorado company, and the witness said: “ Our correspondence will show what inquiries Into the' labor of that com¬ pany we made. In our official family we discussed It. We didn’t take any vote. BUt as a father with his-sdns or his associates, We simply decided what should be done to carry on our great enterprise.” „ , , “ Does your father pass on all Invest¬ ments? ” Mr. Walsh asked, .. .. i “ He gives some one the duty of study¬ ing specific investments and takes ms opinion. He looks into it and my father expects him to know.” ‘ ‘ But it is your father who speaks the word about paying out money? ” “He has contfol of his bWn money, but he acts on the advice offered -him; \ When I say control I do not mean man¬ agerial. control. For some years he has i not done that. He takes no responsibil- 1 ity, whatever.” . , | Mr. Walsh wanted to know how much | control the Directors of the Colorado g company exercised over the labor policy of their executive officials. Mr. Rocke¬ feller said that these questions were left almost entirely to the officials, and that the Directors concerned themselves mainly with financial policies. Thus the officials decided-the question of the non¬ recognition of the union without recourse to the Directors. ’ Walsli Scores on Witness. Here Mr.VWalsh read a passage from a letter from J. F. Wellborn, President of the Colorado Company, to Mr. Rocke¬ feller, in which he said he had hardly ; ever felt better and was hardly con¬ scious of the strain of the strike because of the knowledge of Mr. Rockefeller’s approval. A bitter laugh swept through the cham¬ ber. Mr. Walsh spoke sharply about the need of perfect order, and Mr. Roclce- i feller answered without the slightest change of tone, “ Do I recall it? I do. ’ Mr. Walsh, reading from Mr. Rocke¬ feller’s own statement, tried to draw him into a discussion of abstract theories of democracy as applied to trade unionism. 1 He met with indifferent success, as Mr. Rockefeller parried the attack by plead¬ ing his own inability to answer such questions. Thus as the Chairman sug¬ gested that Directors should study the “ underlying principles of unionism,” ML Rockefeller answered With the same smooth enunciation: “ It would be very useful to any man Interested in hfs fellow men; s I have felt my own lack of knowledge with regard to the Colorado Company for instance. So I have urged on the Rockefeller Foundation to take up these studies. Many subjects, such as economics, I have neither the ability nor the oppor¬ tunity to study. So I have been forced to turn to those better equipped, like Mr. Mackenzie King.” The "witness admitted the abstract rights of the worker and the dangers of autocracy, but added: "I do not think the owner should be expected to turn over his rights to any one else; He has his responsibilities as well as his rights.” “ Have you never made a mistake in choosing an official? ” “ I am not infallible. I make mis¬ takes, as any one else.” “ Must the workers suffer for your Dpn’t you think it the duty of Bi¬ rectors to investigate the rumor? ” “We have no reason to believe it well founded.” “ Would you vote to discharge an of¬ ficer found guilty of it? ” “I should be very much opposed to such practices, but he might be a subordinate. not directly under the board.” “What about the action of officials in choosing candidates? ” “They have their duty as citizens as much as aiiy one else.” Mr. Rockefeller said he knew nothing of activities of Jesse North, counsel for the company, in selecting State officials, He was at his ease again in explaining how in a wild community the company was forced to supply schools and Stores for the men, but was shocked when Mr. Walsh suggested the company also sup¬ plied saloons.. “ Well,” said the Chairman, “ if the company owns all the ground, sets up a $200 or $300 building, and charges $125 a month__for it as a saloon, may I not say the company provides the saloon? ” “ I don’t see what the amount of the rent has to do with the question,” said Mr. Rockefeller. “ The saloon question : has given us much consideration. It is difficult to change the customs of men. We looked with much Interest On club¬ houses, where they could drink or not, as they liked. Drinking has been dis¬ couraged and intoxication done away with as much as possible.” Mr. Walsh showed that over these saloons were big halls, where were held all the meetings of the men, and even religious services. Mr. Rockefeller could explain it only by saying that nowhere else Would there be room for such gath¬ erings. 6 Mr- Rockefeller will resume the stand at 10 o clock this morning. as the world is constituted I don’t see how it can be avoided.” Mr. Walsh began pressing Mr. Rocke¬ feller hard on the right of men to or- agnize and demanded that he should reply as a citizen. To all questions on specific points dealing with the Col¬ orado situation the witness replied that he had no knowledge and no experience. “Do you know how many men work twelve hours? ” ' “-I do not,” Mr. Rockefeller said. “ Do you think it right for any man to work Seven days a week? ” \ “ I should think it a hardship if men worked seven days all the year ’round. I work seven days a week for prolonged periods, I regret to say.” Working Seven Days a Weelc. “ But seven days a week ih a blast furnace? ” “ I don’t know enough about it to dis¬ cuss it. I do not want to leave the im¬ pression that I-favor seven days a week work. I should not consider, even If a man could stand it physically, seven days’ work was best for the develop¬ ment of. hfs character.” Mr. Walsh produced a long list of awards for Injuries, and tried to get Mr. Rockefeller to admit that these awards were the result merely of benev¬ olence, The witness avoided that trap, and said he could hot tell whether $700 was as much as Over was paid for..a death benefit. His seemed to feel on surer ground as Mr. Walsh, led on by Mr. Manley, asked him if workmen were allowed by the Colorado company to buy their own homes. “ If they want to purchase a home in an isolated camp among the mountain fastnesses I suppose they can,, but it is not likely they would do so, considering what would happen If the mine were, worked out,” “ Have you heard that the corruption in Colorado polities is due to the Colpt rado Fuel and iron Compahy?” .“I have heard such a statement of every State and every big corporation." |\| v H i. “X NEW YORK, TUESDAY, JAN. 26, 1915. MR. ROCKEFELLER’S TESTIMONY. Mr. Rockefeller testified yesterday that the corporation with which he Is connected has spent $92,000,000 in wages While it was paying dividends of $371,000. It is further on record that the corporation is- now employing ap¬ proximately the same number Of men as before the strike, and there are no expressions of discontent. An employer like that may be guilty of many things, but cannot be regarded as an enemy of labor until malice is shown. Neith- er malice nor even temper is shown In Mr. Rockefeller’s testimony. His mind is as calm as becomes a man placed by his conditions above the compulsion of necessity to take any stand contrary to his preference, and therefore free to act according to his idea of duty as a citizen and man. More Is expected of any one in such a position than of a labor leader or an Investor not free to make a choice of policies according to dictates of better judgment. His testimony is but half the facts. The representatives of the union remain to be heard, and the decision upon the merits cannot pre¬ viously be given. At present it is only possible to speak of Mr. Rockefeller’s testimony. He is in favor of the same freedom and the same restrictions for both labor and capital. He is not opposed to collective bargaining, hor even to bargaining with unions. He is for the •* freedom of- the individual ” of both classes, and for the judgment of in¬ dividuals and organizations of both classes according to conduct and char¬ acter. He esteems it the greatest so¬ cial service to co-operate in the or¬ ganization of industry “ so as to afford “ the largest number of men the great¬ est opportunity for self-development *' and the enjoyment by every man of “ those benefits which his own work “ adds to the wealth of civilization. That is good American doctrine. It Is the old freedom for all, not the new humanity which confines its benevo¬ lence to the limited few, enforcing rub by" terrors such as Governments d< not dare to inflict and could not sur¬ vive inflicting. It is impossible to Imagine the substitution of unionism for government, even if the motives and objects of unionism are such as unionists profess. Unions are suc¬ cessful only in proportion as they are monopolies. Yet when they become a complete, all-embracing organization they can offer no inducement for mem¬ bership unless they are to discriminate j among their members. Against this idea of privilege for unionists stands the Rockefeller idea of equal oppor¬ tunity for all. This is not prejudging the unions upon the testimony of their opponent The first question asked by the in¬ quisitors of the Rockefeller Founda¬ tion was whether it would produce a copy of its Constitution and by-laws. It was, a singular question, first, bej- cause those documents are matters al¬ ready of public record, and, second, because it was not to be expected that such documents would profess wicked objects. But if the same question is asked of the unions they cannot stand the same test. The basis of unionism is the restriction of its benefits to lim¬ ited numbers of those eligible for membership. The methods by which alone such benefits can be secured for division among the favored few are such as the law has condemned. Trades unions fail when tested by the Rockefeller standard, and society can endure no lower standard. There is no humanity in allowing a man to sell himself to slavery, even though prac¬ ticed in the name of humanity. For government to protect such unions as those in Colorado is to abdicate its functions. For government to fail to protect those willing to work Is to put Itself in the position of denying that society is to be served. There could be no better time for having these truths brought into relief by con¬ trast of the professions and practices of unionists and ‘ capitalists alike. Neither is entitled to anything which it does not earn and deserve'. So far as either falls below the standards and the needs of society they should re¬ ceive merited condemnation. The In¬ dustrial Commission itself is on trial as well as the capitalists and the * unions, and it needs to walk warily. | Just what are the duties of the board of directors of a great business corpora¬ tion? The general impression has come to be that directors are men who receive directions. The theory—and practice— uncovered in the course of the New Ha¬ ven inquiry was that directors are not supposed to know anything about the finances of their corporation. Then we had the word of Mr. Jacob Schiff and Mr. John D. Rockefeller, jr., that anoth¬ er phase of corporation activity with which directors are supposed not to both¬ er is the question of labor. Before the Industrial Relations Commission both gentlemen have testified that they have made it a practice, in corporations of which they are directors, to leave the management of the force of employees to the executive officers. Early in the controversies over the strike in Colorado Mr. Rockefeller took the position that, having appointed executives of tried ability, the whole duty of the men in control of a corporation consists in stand¬ ing by their'representatives; It, is evident, however, that this con¬ ception is breaking down in the hands of the very men who announced it. Mr. Rockefeller does not now disclaim re¬ sponsibility for the men who work for his corporation. On the contrary, he speaks of far-reaching plans, under com¬ petent direction, for bringing labor and capital together in, a joint board, vested ■with a measure of control. In all this, there is agreement with public opinion, r's-CfSlk the habit of ferial badly treated "by the executive head of a corporation will not rise in rebellion, and mill machinery mishand¬ led will not plunge a State into civil Avar. If directors are reaiiyxto direct, there is no branch of activity ito which they can more profitably apply them¬ selves than to the framing of a goner al policy which shall not place the sponsibiUty for labor crises on shoulders of executive officers. the ROCKEFELLER AID IS MOTHER JONES ' r * -—x\v^\vS “ Easy to Misjudge You,” Says (; Agitator, Who Will Call on I Him About Colorado. FORD’S PLAN NOT FEASIBLE Capitalist Tells Industrial Com¬ mission It Would Be Unfair to Fuel Co. Investors. 1 DESCRIBES FATHER’S POLICY Education and Eradication of Mis- ®ry of Disease His Aims—Strike Violence Akin to Burglary. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., faced two separate attacks at the hands of the Federal Commission on Industrial Rela¬ tions yfesterday. At the morning ses¬ sion in the Council Chamber of the City Hall he was questioned more searehing- ly than even on Monday about the strike in Colorado and the action the officials of the -Colorado Fuel and Iron Company had taken in connection with it. Most of.-the time in the afternoon was given to the immense benefactions which his father has set up, and Chairman Walsh tried to make him admit that in the existence of funds measured by the tens of millions in the hands of self- perpetuating trustees lay the germ of much harm to the community. As Mr. Rockefeller discussed the strike question with the calmness and self- possession that never had left him on the stand, there was interjected one as¬ sertion of the point of view of the capitalist. When strikers resorted to violence and to the destruction of prop¬ erty, he suggested, it was impossible to be nice about methods, as it would be to choose one’s measures in tackling a burglar. Father’s Gifts of $350,000,000. Chairman Walsh was at a greater dis¬ advantage in tlie examination about the benefactions than he was in the discus¬ sion of Colorado conditions. He brought up all kinds of possibilities that might arise from the establishment of the great, funds, but Mr. Rockefeller was able to reply by, an appeal to the char¬ acter of the men who had been selected as trustees, and he even contended that the very, size of the philanthropies, nec¬ essarily attracting the public attention, was a safeguard against their misuse. He gave a summary of his,father’s rea- ; eons for setting up the General Educa¬ tion Board,; the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, and the Rockefeller Fund at a cost of approximately $250,- 000,000 as the best answer to all the criticisms which had been aimed against : them. • The crowd which went to hear Mr. Rockefeller was quite as large yesterday as on Monday, and among them was Mother Jones, the Colorado coal agita¬ tor. As soon as Mr. Rockefeller en-| tered, he caught sight of her, and going up to her said : “1 wish yob would come to my office ! and. tell me what you know of the Col¬ orado situation.” « Klee of You,” Says Mother Jones.', “Well, that’s nice of you,” replied the aged woman. “I’ve always said you could never know what those hire- j lings out there were doing. I liked the way you testified yesterday, and I can see how easy it is to misjudge you.” There "was‘some talk of Mother Jones going to the Standard Oil Building at noon, but it was decided there was not time, and it was better to , leave the conference to some other day this week. Vice /President Hayes of the ■United Mine Workers; will -be present at the conference. Mr. Rockefeller also let it be known through Ivy ;u Lee, when he returned after luncheon, that he had objected to the guard of detectives, which the police had provided for him, and, once he had got. away from the City Hall and the crowds at the hearing at any rate, he did not want to be so officious¬ ly looked :j after. Commissioner Walsh began his ques¬ tioning by referring to the Colorado strike of 1903, and asked if men had not been deported from the mining camps and if their constitutional rights had not been taken away. Mr, Rocke¬ feller did not recall anything in detail about that, and the Chairman shifted his attack to the control which it is alleged the Fuel Company exercises over ministers and school teachers in its district. “ Would you discharge an executive official who presumed to dictate what a minister should say?” Mi. Walsh Control Over a Minister. ** I do. not want to evade your ques¬ tions,” answered Mr. Rockefeller, “ but in fairness to the official I should want, to know the full circumstances before answering such a question. I say un¬ hesitatingly that freedom of speech should be accorded in hny instance.” Chairman Walsh quoted a letter writ¬ ten by J. F. Welborn, President of the Colorado Company, to Starr J. Murphy on Oct. 31, 1914, in which it was stated that the minister at Sunrise, Wyo., had been outspoken against the company; that he was Socialistic in his tendencies; that his wife was a Greek, and that the writer was about to’investigate the case. Mr. Welborn was represented as saying that the company had thought of changing the minister, but this had not been done in order not to be unfair to the minister or to do anything which might seem prejudiced on account of the stand he took in the Ludlow out- Mr. ‘Rockefeller admitted having seen the letter, and that at the Ludlow affair several miners had been killed. “ I should not care,” he said, “ to ex¬ press an opinion on the question of the minister until all the facts were before me As you read the letter I got the impression that several charges were made.” „ „ “ Yes; that the minister was of So¬ cialistic tendencies ' and had married a Greek,” retorted the Chairman. Mr. Walsh took up the question of Jeff Farr, Sheriff of Huerfano County, in which the fuel company owned mines. He prefaced this attack by the general question: ■ „ \ . . •• Are you opposed to the use of vio¬ lence in labor disputes or in any other circumstances?” “I certainly am.” Hjg View of Strike Violence. “ Do you believe that the duty of the citizen to uphold the law applies also to the Directors of corporations?”, “ I certainly do.” “ Then do you know,” asked Mr., Walsh sternly, “that Jeff Farr on Sept. 1, 1913, before there was a strike, swore in 326 deputies ; that he did not know these men personally, and that as far as he could tell they might have been red- handed murderers or criminals? Do you know that: these men were not paid by the county, but that Farr was told by Supt. Madison that arms would be sup¬ plied to them by the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company ,and that payment would be made by the company? If these facts be true, would you consider this a menace to the peace of the community and the republican form of govern- m ir Rockefeller objected to such a long question', ■ blit added: “I don’t know how 1 could express an opinion on the measures taken to protect life and property when I was not present, and do not know all the circumstances. Anything that inter¬ feres with democratic government I Should deplore, but I cannot say wheth¬ er a situation did not arise that made it necessary to take extraordinary meas¬ ures to protect life and property. A man may, enter my house as a burglar, and I may have to take action to defend my wife and family. • Such would be : deplorable, but the ordinary methods of i preserving peace might be insufficient.” I That did not satisfy Mr. Walsh, and i he had the question reread. Mr. Rock- ! efeller in response referred to the re¬ mote part of the country where the in- I cident occurred, and the impossibility of trusting to ordinary measures to keep the peace. Mr. Walsh reminded, the witness that the deputies were sworn in before the strike started, and that they might have been criminals. To this Mr. Rock¬ efeller retorted: “Yes, but they might not have been anything of the: kind. Moreover, the officers may have thought that danger to life and property was impending, and their first duty was to protect it. So , they felt justified in taking emergency ‘steps.” Capital and Politic*. Political activity on the part of the j Colorado Fuel and Iron Company was i the next point selected, and Mr. Walsh ! suggested that one of its officials had used money to influence elections, Con- | stitutional Conventions, and the selec- tion of candidates. * . “ I am entirely against such prac- I tices,” replied Mr. Rockefeller. “ As for an official who used such practices I! should, as a Director, want to disasso- . i ciate him entirely from the corporation. A man who was dishonest in one thing ! I think might he dishonest in others. I cannot make it too strong how opposed I jarh to anything destructive of the princi¬ ples of democratic government.” j The witness excused himself from dis¬ cussing the amount of influence a mine Superintendent might exercise in select¬ ing school trustees, on the ground that he never had had the time to go into the matter. Chairman Walsh retorted jWith asperity: “ Please describe how you are occu- jpied? ” | Mr. Rockefeller spoke of the time the business of , the Rockefeller benefactions jtook up. i “ Have you ever thought of delegating (such work to others,” said Mr. Walsh, “ so that you could think of your Col¬ orado employes? I believe you could get reports on Colorado conditions and look over them in a week.” Mr. Walsh referred to the recent tes¬ timony of Henry Ford before the com¬ mission. which Mr. Rockefeller said he had “ skimmed over.” After hanging several quick questions at the witness, apparently to show that Mr. Rockefel¬ ler’s information about, Colorado was not very exact, the Chairman asked: “Could not a sociological department such as Mr. Ford established, if it was ;et up in New York, keep you thorough¬ ly informed concerning your employes?” j “ Jt would be entirely possible,” an¬ swered Mr. Rockefeller without any show of h'ritation. “ But Mr. Ford showed that he was making many mill¬ ions of dollars,, and so he could develop such a department with entire justice to his stockholders.. But. I think you will , agree in the case of tlie Colorado Com¬ pany, where the common stockholders have had no returns for many years it; would not be fair to undertake sociolog¬ ical work.” Might Close Up Entirely. “ Don’t you think that if you cannot look after the workers properly it might be better to close entirely?” “It might come to that,” said Mr. Rockefeller placidly. Mr, Walsh seemed to think he had pressed the argument too far. . " My question was,” he said, “ if the industry goes on should you not under¬ take this sociological work?” “ Why, certainly. We are trying to do it.” said Mr. Rockefeller, quietly but firmly. “ The alternative might be to abandon these sociological attempts al¬ together, but I prefer to try to do them imperfectly rather than not at all.” Mr. Walsh elicited that Mr. Rocke¬ feller had only looked through the evi¬ dence taken by the Congressional inves¬ tigation of the Colorado situation, as it was so voluminous, and that he merely had glanced at the headlines of the New York newspapers on the strike “What newspapers do you read?” asked Mr. Walsh. Mr. Rockefeller looked over at the crowd of reporters in the well beneath the witness table and said with a smile: . “It would be embarassing to answer m the presence of this fraternity.” “ These/ gentlemen do not matter,” re¬ plied Mr. W'alsh. “ I read The Times in the morning,” said .Mr. Rockefeller, “and The Sun and Post in the evening.” “ Do you believe a company should maintain a blacklist? ” asked the Chair- mam. “ Please define a blacklist.” It is a list of men considered by the company as undesirables and it is kept open for the inspection of other com¬ panies.” 1 - “ I have no knowledge of such a list. I think every company should take steps to prevent undesirables: being em¬ ployed, hut I do not think it should be Shown to other companies.” Gan the employers be trusted to guard the rights and interests of the employed?” The witness replied indirectly, that it would be highly desirable’if the workers had a participation in directing such matters. Mr. Walsh asked the question four times, and at last had to be sat¬ isfied with the reply that Mr. Rocke¬ feller had not given enough thought to the question to be more definite. After luncheon Mr. Rockefeller said his at¬ tention had been called to this question. , and he wished to say he had failed to grasp it, and was now willing to say that, of course, it was impossible to trust employes implicitly in such mat¬ ters. J Upholds Non-Union Rights. After several other matters had been briefly dealt with Mr. Walsh said: " At Washington you testified that you took a profound interest in labor matters arid would fight for the open Camp as a great principle. Why did you take so determined a stand? ” “ That testimony has been construed as a declaration on my part of warfare on the unions. It is not fair to .take it as. such. The principle we were resist¬ ing was that our company should dis¬ charge air the non-union men, while we believe that every man under the Con¬ stitution has the right to choose Whether he should belong to a union or not. 'My testimony was in no way a declaration of antagonism to unionism.’ Mr. Rockefeller a little - later said he would he glad to get some suggestions from the commission. . “ Do you depend on outside Govern¬ mental agencies for suggestions? ” asked Mr. Walsh, sarcastically. “ No, but we shall be glad of your assistance,” answered Mr. Rockefeller, quietly. At the afternoon session there was read a long letter to Mr. Rockefeller, from Mackenzie King last August, in .which Mr/ King : expressed the opinion that times were likely to be so bad that the unions would no longer bother about recognition simply for the sake of rec¬ ognition, but would be glad to work with companies big enough to keep up the standard of wages as they were at pres¬ ent. It was shown that in the last twelve years Mr. Rockefeller, Sr., had received, in addition to the $376,000 on his stock investment, $9,260,000 interest on his Colorado bonds. In that period the 15,000 employes had received $92,000,- 000 in wages. ■ “ Would you consider it just,” asked Mr. Walsh, “that the 15,000 employes, some of whom had been crippled at the mines, should receive ten times as much as the man who had never visited Ike property?” “ I can’t see the connection,” said the witness.' “Capital must get its return, and two-thirds of 1 per cent, on the capital investment is utterly inadequate to attract it when it might go into a savings bank.” Mr. Walsh turned to • the Rockefeller, benefactions, the Rockefeller Fund, the General Education Board, and the Rock¬ efeller Medical Institute. ’Asked to give the total amount of bis father's public appropriations the witness said: “ Not accurately as a statement, hut it would approximate $250,000,000; $100,- 000,000 to the Rockefeller Foundation, $34,000,000 now in the hands of the Gen¬ eral Education Board, besides larger gifts under the board of which my father has reserved the right to designate, the destination, as to the University of Chi¬ cago and the Rockefeller Institute. Describes His Father’s Views. ‘‘ Then there are the gifts outside of the Foundation, such as $10,000,000 to the Institute for Medical 1 Research, which does not include $2,250,000. not yet paid to it. The University of Chicago has received between $33,000,000 and $34,- 000 , 000 .” “ Do you not think that your father would have done more for the public interest if he had given the money to workers in industries? ” The question drew from Mr. Rocke¬ feller a defense of his father’s policy: “I think my father held - that one.of the best forms of giving was the build¬ ing up of productive industries. But. other things could best he done by giv¬ ing to such things aseducation. To a small extent these great foundations have been intended to carry on my father’s private philanthropies. As his ability to contribute toward education increased we thought it desirable to crystallize in one organization the sev¬ eral activities he had carried on him¬ self. “ First came the General Education Board. Up to that time my father had 3 given to education, guided by the studies and inquiries of his associates. He thought it better not to confine him¬ self to one group necessarily small, and so he set up 'the board, and, as the per¬ sonnel shows, tried to bring in as broad, intelligent and representative a group as he could get together. “ Then my father had the growing impression that the great cause of human misery was 1 disease, and if he could, find any way to contribute toward information that might prevent or eradicate disease he would be making a real, permanent contribution to the world at large. So thte idea of medical research came to his mind, because fre¬ quently it is so unproductive and costly that' it does .not recommend itself to philanthropists. He began quietly and modestly with a gift of $300,000, and got the most competent men to investigate, to study disease in various laboratories. There .was at first no separate plant, no endowment. He made no suggestion how the work should be done, but al¬ ways got the best men for it. “ This gift was enough to develop men of special ability, and the question as. to where the institute should be was not decided by my father, but was left to a board of special experts created for the purpose. Now we have a labora¬ tory and a hospital, and contemplate additional laboratories. The study has been along special lines, and we have been successful in reducing the average death toll in cerebro-meningitis from 75 per cent, to 25 per cent. That is to say, in 600 cases, 300 owe their lives to the institute. The remedy has been used in different parts of the world and has been turned over to the' public for public' use.., For Succeeding Generations, “ The Rockefeller Foundation was the most recently organized in order that various .kinds of altruistic endeavors might continue to receive attention from the persons in charge of the fund. Its organization was purposely made broad, because my father thinks that each gen¬ eration can best tell what are its spe¬ cific needs, and the man who tries to prophesy in advance • is not likely to do as much good as he who leaves it to each generation to act to , the best ad¬ vantage.” Mr. Rockefeller described, how an at¬ tempt was made to get the best possible men for the Trustees of the founda¬ tions, and how they succeeded in finding men of experience and vision who would come thousands of miles without re¬ muneration to take part in a work for the public good. “Do you consider such endowments menace to the cause of industrial progress or education?” Mr. Walsh asked. ‘ “ I rather thought,” answered Mr. Roekefoiler, “that they . would be of service to humanity. I never consid¬ ered it necessary to think they could be a menace. Besides the Legislature could always repeal their Charters.” “ Should such foundations be com¬ pelled to consume their incomes?” “I should not consider it necessary,” the witness replied. Neither did Mr. Rockefeller see any necessity to have a limitation of the life of such funds as the Chairman suggest¬ ed for fifty ,years, although he showed that the Trustees of the Rockefeller Foundation and the General Education Board were at liberty to distribute the money they held. lie denied that the funds of a $100,- 000,000 corporation could be used to affect the stock market; he saw no value in limiting the salaries of the officials; he explained the exemption of the real estate the foundations occu¬ pied simply on the ground of custom; he denied that tlie General Education Board would ever give money to a col¬ lege except absolutely, as it would not desire to limit the discretion of the col¬ lege'in its activities. Finally Mr. Rockefeller denied abso¬ lutely that, the view of the man who gave the money for these funds would ever reach to men, why -received them so as to limit free action. Mr. Rockefeller is to take the stand again this morning at 10 o’clock. 34 LABOR WINS OVER MR. ROCK! Mother Jones Has Long Confer ence with Him—Miners’ Of« ficers to Cal! Today. M AS MAN TO MAN,” HE SAYS Finds Union IVlen “Clean-Cut Fellows”; Predicts a Better Understanding with Them. GOING TO MINES HIMSELF Capitalist Ends Testimony Before Industrial Commission—Possible Danger in Foundation. John D. Rockefeller, Jr., invited Mother Jones, the Colorado miner agi¬ tator, down to his office in the Standard Oil -Building yesterday and spent an hour ,and a half with her talking over the conditions of the miners who work for the Colorado Fuel and Iron ' Coihr pany. Moreover, today he hopes to meet Frank J. Hayes, Edward Doyle, and John R. Lawson, prominent officials of the miners’ union “ as man to man,” aS he put it, and go over the same ground With them. These meetings, which have had no precedent in the history of the Colorado dispute, are the result of the personal touch into which Mr.' Rockefeller has come with the champions of the miners at the meetings of the Federal, Com¬ mission on Industrial Relations. Mother Jones had seen him for three - days face a merciless cross-examination at the hands of the investigators wifth courtesy, go6d temper, and poise. As she confessed yesterday, she had entire¬ ly changed her opinion of him. He had met her as he passed through the City. Hall after -the sessions and exchanged a few words with her. Mother Jones’s Visit. So yesterday, as Mr. Rockefeller was excused from the stand, he asked her If she could come down at once to 26 Broadway and also told the union of¬ ficials :that he hoped today to be able to have a chat, with them. Mrs. Jones arrived at the Standard Oil Building about 4:30 o’clock and from then until ® o’clock sat in Mr. Rockefeller’s private office talking over the Colorado con¬ ditions .with him and Mackenzie King, the investigator on labor conditions for the Rockefeller Foundation. As she left the conference she was asked what they had been discussing knd said in her lively, . quick way J I "Oh, we’ve just been talking over everything for the best interest of the., nation and the cause of humanity.” " Did you tell Mr. Rockefeller about Colorado conditions? ” she. was asked. “ Yes. I just told him a few things, but I’ve been in jail so long any head’s out of gear.” “Well, are. you going to Colorado With him?/ ' " We should 1 ' Oil.', no, ’ ’ she aiawered. be mobbed.” As she was hurryhg off she turned back and said: ** Misrepresenting Him Terribly.” 1 " T just told Mr. ROcke&lio- one thing. We have been misrepresenting nun ter¬ ribly, and I as much as anybody else.'' Mr. Rockefeller was more disposed to talk about the interview than Mother Jones was. He received reporters in his private office. He seemed to hope that his direct personal contact with the rep¬ resentatives of' labor might be the be¬ ginning of better things. He . spoke of his desire to gather information from every possible source about the grave problems before him and his fellow Di¬ rectors, and be thought that the frank explanation of the difficulties that beset them which he had made on the stand in the last few days would make the labor men realize that he had a real desire to do all he could to improve stores, and the right of the workmen to bring their grievances to one- of tbe higher officials or to a director with¬ out jeopardizing their position. Folly Agreed in Principle. "I found myself able to agree with all that 'she said on these things in principle, although of course it was impossible for me to taiK about the actual conditions as they are in Col¬ orado, and what or what not it may be possible for the company to do to¬ day. In fact it was, not feasible to dis¬ cuss these matters from the point of I view of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company.” Mr, Rockefeller referred to his testi¬ mony before the Industrial Relations Commission, and said, fpr example, that ixllli. ScLIU, iyi CAcUUJJIC, lllfU he fully recognized the right of all men to free speech as long as they, did not Infringe on the rjghts of others. “ As for schools,” he said, “ I cannot i nderstand how it . could be imagined that an industrial company would want to run them. It is not in its line at all, but its officials might be forced to take ah interest in them and assume a responsibility with regard • to them as citizens simply through the force of cirntimatniipoa ” circumstances. Mr. Rockefeller spoke very earnestly of his hatred not only of strikes, but of all industrial strife. It is inhuman, it is unchristian, it is uneconomic,” he said. “ Think of the loss of lives first and of the misery’ that is caused thereby. Then think of the money losses not only to the com¬ pany, but to the men’s union. .We see from the war in Europe what a horrible thing ail this strife is. Surely we should all work together to find some better way to -settle our disputes. To Meet Them “ Man to Man.” “ I believe,” Mr. Rockefeller went-on, " that it will be for the good of every¬ body if I can have these talks with these Union. men. I want to meet them .as eleemosynary institution the Founda¬ tion could be changed under charter by the Legislature at any time. Mr. Walsh took up- the, criticisms, which Jacob Gould Schurman, Presi¬ dent of Cornell, had passed on the charter originally proposed, as giving, power to “ do anything and everything it considered proper toward the reform of the American people and of man¬ kind.” The Chairman asked whether under it a number of things would be possible. For example, the circulation of a President’s message or of a party platform, the dissemination of criticism of a Churqh or religious body, or the purchase of a chain of stores, i To most of these questions Mr. Rocke- | feller replied in the negative, but he ex¬ plained that the scope of the philan- i thropy was very broad, and it had been It thought best not to put up barriers un¬ til it was discovered where they would be most effective. “ Could it circulate propaganda for. or against the Workmen’s Compensation acts? ” he was asked. “ I should say not.”. “ Could it pay for publicity agents? ” Claims Same Right as Unions. “Yes, I don’t see why the Foundation should not have the same legitimate methods of spreading its views as unions or the other organizations you have mentioned,” replied Mr. Rockefeller. “Where would you draw the line, then, as dispenser of money for philan¬ man to man. I want to talk over things with them. I . want to find out exactly how they look on things and T want to tell them what, my own views are. I am sure we shall understand each other bet¬ ter and, our meeting will have an in— fluence for good,” With an apology, Mr. Rockefeller told how Mother Jones had informed him how his own appearance on the witness stand had changed h'rir views of him, and he confessed he had been pleased Wjth the looks of the men of whom until a day or two ago he had only heard as the leaders of the miners in I a bitter strife. ■ , - , j “ They are as clean-cut fellows: as you would wish to see,” he said. Asked as to wlieh he intended to go I 1 to Colorado, Mr. Rockefeller said that II he could not set a date now, but he lioped that it would be some time before Summer. . “ I have been a month,” be said, “ pre¬ paring for this examination, and we have had another long list of questions sent us since it began. It will be neces¬ sary to fit in the trip with my other business, but I hope to be able tc go West in the next few months, before Summer probably.” ROCKEFELLER ENDS EVIDENCE conditions. “ Now that the strike is over,” he said,. “I did not see why I should not meet and have a chat with Mother Jones. So I expect to have a talk with Mr. Hayes, Mr. Doyle, and Mr. Lawson tomorrow. I am very anxious to get all the information I can about Colorado, and I intend to avail myself of this op¬ portunity. “ Mother Jones went over with Mr/ King and myself for an hour and a half , all the main points in the situa¬ tion. , She told me about the schools and the desire of the miners to choose their own teachers, the company’s Runs Gauntlet of Labor Agitators at City Hall. When John D. Rockefeller, Jr., ap¬ peared yesterday in the Council Cham¬ ber of the City Hall to resume his evi¬ dence before the Federal Commission on Federal Relations he had to run the gauntlet of the labor agitators who had been listening to his testimony for the previous two days. Mrs. Bella N. Zil- berman, who was arrested last Winter in the mourning parade before the Standard Oil Building, shook hands with him, and Mrs. Gertrude Wilde Klein also tried to start a, discussion with him. The capitalist escaped with relief .and began to joke with the reporters about their weariness at having to listen to ■him, while Starr J. Murphy, one of his “personal staff,” had a conference with Edward Doyle,, secretary of the United Mine Workers of Colorado. As soon as Chairman Walsh called the session to order he resumed his in¬ quiries about the Rockefeller Founda¬ tion and its possible effect in influenc¬ ing public sentiment in opposition to labor. Was there any danger, he asked Mr. Rockefeller, of these educated at a certain School absorbing the views of the donor of the funds which started the institution? " If the donor retains a supervision,” replied Mr. Rockefeller, “ I can see some danger in an institution for higher edu¬ cation; but in the case of elementary schools it would be very remote.” Mr, Walsh wanted to know why the Rockefeller Foundation, after applying for a Federal charter, had. got one finally from New York State. He pointed out that ' the House of Repre¬ sentatives had amended the bill for the charter, restricting the fund to $100,- 000,000, prohibiting the' accumulation of interest, giving the corporation the right to distribute its funds after fifty years, and imposing the obligation to distribute after 100 years, if Congress so ordered. Moreover, the Trustees were to be approved by various public officials and university Presidents. Mr. Walsh particularly wanted to, know why these safeguards were omitted from the New York act. Reason for a State Charter. The witness ■ said that recourse had been had to *the State because Con¬ gress adjourned without action on the bill of incorporation, and it seemed hopeless to expect action at Washing¬ ton. Jerome P. Greene, at tpe sugges¬ tion of Senator Robert F. Wagner, went to Senator Foley and, witn the unani¬ mous support of the Republicans and Progressives, the charter . was. granted in 1913, Mr, Rockefeller explained that the Foundation people regarded'the so-called safeguards as entirely satisfactory if thropy,” asked Chairman Walsh, “ in your capacity as adviser to your father and as a Colorado Fuel and Iron Com¬ pany Director?” “ Your question,’,’ replied Mr. Rocke¬ feller quietly,“ is based,on the assump¬ tion that a man with one interest can¬ not be loyal to another. [We do riot recognize that,' There are hundreds and thousands of men in this country who can be trusted' to do right. Just be¬ cause a man has one interest that is no reason why he Cannot be fair in an¬ other. We must rely on tin; integrity of men in all relations' of life.” Mr. Walsh read Dr. Schurman’s praise of the present Directors of the Foun¬ dation, in which he spoke, of Mr. Rock¬ efeller senior as a “transcendent gen¬ ius,” but doubted the principle of self- perpetuation in the Board of Directors. “If I. had shared Dr. Schurman's fears,” answered the witness, “ I should not haVe assented to the charter. I don’t think my father ever thought he could continue his influence. Our idea was to leave to each generation the safeguards it deemed advisable.” The witness said he would have no objection -to a veto- power on the choice' of trustees being vested in the Gov¬ ernor, the Chief Justice of the Court of Appeals, and other State officials apd the Presidents of Harvard, Yale, Colum¬ bia, Johns Hopkins, and Chicago uni¬ versities. But he doubted its wisdom. Asked about the income of the Rocke¬ feller Foundation, he, said that' in 1914 it was $5,152,761.51, of which $2,000,000 had been spent as personally directed by his father and the rest according to the orders of the Executive Commit¬ tee, consists of himself, Charles O. Heydt, his Secretary; Dr. Simon F’ex- ner, Jerome D. Greene, and Starr J. Murphy. • Mr. Rockefeller had no comments to make on the resolution of the, National Education Association, viewing with alarm “ the efforts of the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations to control the public education systems.” Mr. Garretson’s Questions. The witness at that point was turned over to Commissioner. Garretson. That Commissioner leaned back in his chair, gazed at the celling, and asked: “ When it has been asserted, wrongly i or rightly, that there has been a con- jtmuous campaign, for instance in Ger¬ many from 1848, accentuated since 1870, jfor the domination by the militarist idea of all channels of the State, church, [educational, social, or otherwise, is the [ apotheosis of the divine mission of Ger¬ many'to regenerate the world to be con¬ sidered as connected with the present [condition there? ” Mir. Rockefeller said he had heard such a theory advanced and Mr. Garretson tried again: “ Might it be possible that a founda¬ tion of the character of that have ex¬ isted, that with a change of the person- nel—and I am applying this absolutely to a condition which may arise after the present generation is gone—that with a personnel devoting the potential power to a domination oi the educational, as outlined in the resolution passed by the Education Association, to the spiritual as applied to the endowment of churches : or theological universities, to the social as applied', by ordinary well-recognized methods of molding public opinion— [could a foundation of that character, self-perpetuating in its nature, exercise an influence that would be deadly to lib¬ eralism? I go no further than liberal- :ism. Mr. Rockefeller thought it might be remotely possible, but thought the power of the Legislature was sufficient to safe¬ guard against it. When Mr. Garretson put it to Mr. Rockefeller that it was impossible for j a worker to trust merely to the influ¬ ence of the men behind him and quoted from his own experience the safeguards that the railroad brotherhoods exacted for their representatives, the witness accepted the point gracefully and said “ No one raises any question,” . Mr. Rockefeller said, “ as: to what any other bondholder received on the' money he had loaned. To him is conceded freely the right to buy a yacht or start a foundation with. it. But just because my father does not need it . to feed or clothe, himself they ask why does'’not he give it back.” In reply to Corrimissioner O’Connell, Mr. Rockefeller explained that Macken¬ zie King had received from the Rocke¬ feller Foundation absolute power to in¬ vestigate the labor question in what¬ ever way seemed best to him, and that there was no intention of dictating methods to him. “ I should think it highly desirable,” the witness said to Mr. Lennon, “that the representatives of tne men, should meet their employers, and I hope when I go to Colorado that I may meet the representatives of the workers.” As Mr. Rockefeller was excused he thanked the commission for its cour¬ tesy in listening to him so patiently, and a ripple of applause broke out through the hall. Before it could increase Chair¬ man Walsh had suppressed it. William H. Allen, late of the' Bureau of Municipal Research, took the .stand for a few minutes, but gave way almost immediately to Ivy L. Lee, one of the personal staff of Mr. Rockefeller. Error. Heclcle'd About It was Mr. Lee who assisted in 'the publication of the presentation of the side of the Colorado strike from the operators’ viewpoint, arid he was put through a merciless cross-exahiinatlon about it. His own account of this did riot differ from that given by Mr. Rockefeller. He was engaged to horn- pile the operators’ statement, but would not admit that he had actually written much of the bulletins which were pub¬ lished. He had received $1,000 a month from Mr. Rockefeller senior, and - the expenses of publication were paid by the dolorado operators; Tie would not take any responsibility fpr the state¬ ments in the bulletins, as they were merely, such as were provided him by the operators. Mr. Lee was heckled severely Con¬ cerning a statement in The Bulletin ap¬ pearing on Oct, 1 to the effect that Frank J. Hayes received in nine Weeks from the miners’ union in salary a rid expenses $5,720.12; that John M. Me- Lenon got $2,683.55 and $l,40&.-53 • ex¬ penses; that John R. Lawson got $1,77;:, and Mother Jones $2,668’.6.2. As a mat¬ ter of fact these were yearly 'salaries. Mr. Lee admitted the error, he had suggested a correction in- a slip to be inserted in The Bulletin then Ilshing. However, it was- not inserted, and the correction did not crime'rout until the January number. • The. responsibility for this, Mr. Lee said, must rest with the operators-. - Ms trill resume his testiipony this morning. Use of Publicity Agent. “ What is a .publicity agent? ” Mr. Garretson suddenly asked. “ Will he tell the truth, the whole truth, or will he try to put across the views pf his employers? ” “ If a publicity agent would not tell the whole truth,” said the-witness, “I should not want him near me.” “Do you expect to find one in the regular trade? ” asked Mr. Garretson. and the laugh he got for once was not stopped by the Chairman. Commissioner Ballard brought out the difference between the fight of free Speech and the right to send men to a mining camp to stir' up trouble. Com¬ missioner Wetnstoek, after referring, to tiie good treatment ’ that the Stand¬ ard Oil employes on the. Pacific Coast receive, gave Mr. Rockefeller a chance to explain his father’s position toward [the Colorado Fuel Company.. I THE ROCKEFELLER CORPORATION. The. Industrial Commission asked why the Rockefeller Foundation was incorporated. Presumably it was the opposite of the reason why the Amer¬ ican Federation is not incorporated. The written answer for the Rockefeller Foundation was that it was riot “ con¬ solidated,” no specific reason being given for the incorporation. Verbally Mr. Rockefeller testified that incor¬ poration was sought for the usual rea¬ sons, to give continuity of existence, and responsibility for all acts per- farmed- Mr. Gompers’s reason for not incorporating is candor itself, and is substantially the opposite of the Rock¬ efeller Foundation's, presumed reasons. To incorporate the Federation would be to make it responsible in damages for such acts as have been proved against it. The Federation holds a stronger po¬ sition with the thoughtless if it is able to say that judgments for mis¬ conduct are against individual mem¬ bers, rather than against the incor¬ porated union. There would be sym¬ pathy, even if-mistaken, for the union¬ ists, where none would be passible for the union convicted of misconduct. In that light the Reason against incor¬ poration from the Federation’s, stand¬ point is a, reason for incorporation from a public standpoint. If a com¬ bination is. capable of spending literal¬ ly millions in acts offensive to pub¬ lic morality according to the opinion of juries, as is the case of the Federa¬ tion, then il; is clear either that it slapuld be made legally responsible or else that it should not be allowed to have a legal existence. If railways and trusts must he incorporated, why should not the unions, which rival any trust in, membership and power, alike for good and for evil? _ LAWSON ARRAIGNS ROCKEFELLER FOR ENSLAVING LAP ——v\y>V$ Leaving Capitalist, the Miners’ Leader Denounces Him Be¬ fore Industrial Commission. UNRESTLAID TO FOUNDATION Witness Says Millions Given with “Showy Generosity” Are Withheld from Workers. SCORNS INQUIRY PROMISES Treatment of Men as “Human Chattels ” and Absenteeism Must End, He Asserts. DR. ELIOT UPHOLDS UNIONS Opposes Boycott and Limitation of Output and Defends Philanthro¬ pies—Hammond Testifies. Going almost straight from the office Of John D. Rockefeller, Jr., at 26 Broad- waV, where with Edward L. Doyle he had had. a friendly chat with the cap¬ italist over conditions in the mines of Colorado, John R. Lawson, a member' of the Executive Board of the United Mine Workers, appeared before the Federal Commission on. Industrial Af¬ fairs yesterday and read a scathing in¬ dictment of Mr. Rockefeller and his. atti¬ tude on the stand before the commis- j sion. Mr. Lawson attacked Mr. Rockefeller for the incidents that marked the great Colorado mining strikes and for his ac¬ knowledged ignorance of the actual con¬ ditions in the mining, fields. . He ar¬ raigned the- oil man for inaction and compared it with the generosity shown to employes by Henry Ford. Turning to . the Rockefeller Founda¬ tion, he asserted that one of the causes of RM-ustrial discontent was that very jihil&nlhiopy and the feeling that the millions “ spread over the world in showy generosity ! ’ were derived from the “money withheld from the wages of the American working class.” Assails Mackenzie King. The witness scoffed at W. L. Mac¬ kenzie. King, Who has been chosen to undertake the investigation of indus¬ trial problems for the Foundation, and declared that the causes of unrest were to .be removed not by promises of endless investigations nor by a sudden willingness to hold conferences, but by the abandonment of the treatment of men as “"human chattels ” and the cor¬ rection of the evils of “ absentee land¬ lordism.” Under the!stern rule which'Chairman Walsh has imposed on the meetings of the commission under which even a chance laugh calls for a reproof, it was Impossible for this outburst of the rep¬ resentative of the miners to call for any demonstration, but, following the chats Mr. Rockefeller had just had with Mother Jones and the union leaders, it seemed to take away the breath of the audience. Qnly at the end of the state¬ ment was there, an apparent suggestion of anything in it but a declaration of renewed war. As he criticised the new organization! which Mr. Rockefeller’s company has set, to work among its employes, Mr. Lawson went on ,to say it was impos¬ sible that anything could be accom¬ plished by this, except with the co-op emivo^Qf the union. He paused to r joice HfewMir, Rockefeller Mad b - willing to confer-vMh the worker/^ and it was thought that the attack’was de¬ signed in the main to force Mr. Rocke- feller’s hand and make him progress from “imere social Visits” to active recognition of the union. -Dr. Eliot 3i Witness. In the earlier part of the day Dr. Charles W. Eliot, FresideivLrEmeritus j of Harvard and a member of the Rock- j efeller Foundation and General Educa-I , tion A ssociation boards, praised the! work of those philanthropies in the highest terms. He expressed himself in favor of trade unions,' but condemned utterly the boycott and the limitation of output. John Hays Hammond also was called- Compares Rockefeller with Ford. Mr. Lawson expressed scorn of Mr. Rockefeller’s excuse that he was too busy with his father’s foundations and l)is investments, and ’drew a contrast between his attitude and'that of Henry Ford. The difference pointed out by Mr. Rockefeller between the' highly profitable Ford enterprise and the un- He expressed the view that it would be j profitable ^ Colorado mines still further impossible for a self-respecting, high- class manager to submit to dictation as to his handling of the labor problem by any Board of Directors. When there was a strike the Directors should be ex- j pected to look into it, but lie never had had a strike, he'said, and believed that everything depended on the way the managers handled the men. “ Speaking for the many thousands of men, women, and children who suf¬ fered through the recent coal strike in Colorado,” begap Mr. Lawson after he received permission to read his state¬ ment, “ I say to your honorable body that you: can well afford to let the tes¬ timony of John D. Rockefeller, Jr., bring your investigation to an end. Out of his mouth came a reason for every discontent that agitates the laboring class in the United States today, and if remedies, are provided for the injustices that h« disclosed a long step will be , taken away from .'industrial disturb-’ a nee.” ■Vast Power Inherited. aroused Mr. Lawson, and he called at¬ tention to the $.8,889,000 which Mr. Rockefeller, Sr., had received from his fuel company bonds and the appreciation of the property, as answering that line, of reasoning. Moreover, the witness declared, the poverty of the Colorado company was due to its own “stupid corrupt policy,” and he thus summarized the situation: “ This record of indifference respecting human life and human happiness is the vital cause of industrial discontent—an employer who is never seen and whose power over us is handed down from man to. man until there is a chain that no individual can climb, our lives and our liberties passed over as a birthday gift or by will, our energies and fut¬ ures capitalized by financiers in distant .citiCs, our .conditions of labor held, as of less account than dividends, our masters too often men who have never seen us, who care nothing for us; and Who will riot or cannot hear the cry of our despair.” * Regarding the Rockefeller Founda¬ tion, Mr. Lawson declared. that knottier cause of industrial discontent was the skillful attempt which was being made to substitute philanthropy for justice. It is not their own money, he said, that these lords of commercialized virtue are spending, but the money withheld from the ’ wages of the American working¬ man. He. enumerated the activities of the Rockefeller Foundation, and said: j "A wave of horror swept over ! morning session. /' Sitting bolt upright with his 'ruddy face alive with interest in the: questions, the.dean of American v “ Our main purpose,” ne said, ” has already been achieved. It was to bring home to the men most responsible— the employers living here in New York— j the horrible conditions in the industries under their control in the Far West. We have let the employers' tell just 1 how much or how little they actually Knew about the men on their payrolls, and how much or how little interest they took in labor conditions. We have let the workers tell just how bad their plight is from their standpoint, and why it is that they feel a spirit of unrest” Mr. Walsh said that he was glad*“t /be told he had not a judicial poise ; “ because the worst curse of our civil¬ ization is the judicial poise with its constant begging of every question and its avoidance of all problems that difficult to face.”' He classed the “ trimming politician ” and the man of “ judicial poise ” as a “ pair of pests ” to he avoided. Mr. Walsh said B. M. Manly, Director of Public Inevstigations of the commis¬ sion, “was responsible for all the good accomplished, since he prepared the questions to be asked witnesses and arranged the order of their appear- STRIKE HEADS SEE MR. ROCKEFELLER — Better Understanding Admitted After Mine Union Officials Tell Their Side. MOTHER JONES’S NEW TACK Calls Promises “ Lip Service ” After Warning Telegram from Upton Sinclair. CUTTING BEFORE INQUIRY Denies Rockefeller Gift Influenced Actior of Municipal Re¬ march Bureau. means in their ■ powers—a strike—they i would be starved out in a week. “ Only Up Service So Far.” “ So far Mr. Rockefeller has given! only lip service, to democracy in indus¬ try. His new plan in Colorado mas- 1 querades as a basis,for collective bar¬ gaining. It is the shadow, not the sub- ■ stance. You can’t fool my boys. They! know that this kind of a scheme is a j hypocritical and dishonest practice. I j don’t believe Mr. Rockefeller under¬ stands this, because he says he believes j In unions and collective bargaining and i democracy in industry.” j So Mother Jones urged Mr. Rocke- J feller to go out to Colorado as quickly j as possible to see things for himself I and make alterations in a condition, ' whiGh, she asserted, kept the miners in as bad a position as if they were in Russia and not in America. When Commissioner Garretson was asked yesterday how Mr. Rockefeller’s testimony and behrivior on the stand had impressed him. he said he thought both sides would be helped by his ex¬ amination. “ Mr. Rockefeller,” he declared, “ is hot the kind of man the laboring men thought he was, and I think hp found the laboring men different from what he had supposed.” CUTTING DENIES INFLUENCE. - — - John D. Rockefeller, Jr., continued yesterday his policy of seizing the op¬ portunity that the Federal Commission on Industrial Relations has presented for informing himself at first-hand of j the views of leaders among Colorado | miners. He invited to his office at 26 Broadway Frank J. Hayes, Vice; President of the United Mine Workers j of America; James Lord, head of the; mining department of the Ameriear|, Federation of Labor, and Edward L. Doyle, Secretary . Treasurer of district 15 of*the United Mine Workers. They went to Mr. Rockefeller’s office ! !n the afternoon and were in conference; with him for three hours. William Lyon Mackenzie King, head of the In¬ dustrial Relations Division of tW|., Rockefeller Foundation,, and Starr 3. Murphy, of Mr. Rockefeller’s personal staff, also took part in the talk. The discussion, it was understood, was ab¬ solutely frank and open and views were, expressed freely. h “ We had a pleasant talk and a frank y exchange of views,” the miners’ official! said as they left Mr. Rockefeller’s of^ fice. “ Don’t ask us any leading ques¬ tions, as we prefer that Mr. Rockefeller should-give, out whatever seems best to him about the matter. See him.” When Mr. Rockefeller came out with Mr. King and Mr. Murphy, he Was not much more communicative. “ It was quite unofficial and informal,” he said. “•They gave me certain facts about con¬ dition's in Colorado that I was glad to know about, and wo had a general dis¬ cussion. No new suggestions were made. “ You can understand how much de¬ pends on what is being done and how more harm than good might be accom¬ plished by making too much out of it. I hope you won’t make this meeting out to be anything else than what it was an informal, unofficial'talk over ques¬ tions that interest us.” Mother’ Jones Changes Front. Meanwhile Mother Jones, who had seen Mr. Rockefeller on Wednesday and had’expressed, the belief that be s'eemed a much misunderstood young man, seemed yesterday to - have; had some searching’s of heart. She had received from Upton Sinclair in the! morning a telegram reading: “ We are sure you will not let yourself be overcome by the sweet odor of the American Beauty rose,” and so she gave out along state¬ ment in which she insisted that Mr. Rockefeller must show the country that his new affability toward labor was to be carried'out in action. Here is what she said, in part: “ Mr. Rockefeller is a very pleasant young man. HA assured me that he is anxious to help the workers in thei: struggle for a chance to live as f 1 men and women, and we are going give him every chance in the world show that he means it. " Good intentions are all right as pa. ing blocks, but what we want iS perforn ance —and' we want it now. I don’t bt, lieve Mr, Rockefeller understands th strictly pedagogical problems of the Board of Education “ The views expressed by Mr. Rocke¬ feller were those already entertained by Mr. Morawetz and me.” went on Mr. Cutting, “ and by several other trustees. Our minds,” he explained, “ were in a nebulous state, and though we were in¬ clined to decline Mr. Rockefeller’s very gracious offer, when we came to discuss it we found we could agree with Mr Rockefeller, and as we could do so we accepted the money.” 1 “ You found that without that $20,000 you would have to close up? ” said Commissioner Garretson. “ That would imply that we changed our minds,” said Mr. Cutting, “ Out- minds were already made up.” “ What would think of a church which changed its denomination for $20,000 t ” asked Mr. Garretson. “ But suppose the church had already changed its denomination? ” Mr. Cut* ting replied. Chairman Walsh wanted to know if at the time of the luncheon at which Mr. Rockefeller objected to outside work being undertaken by the Bureau it was not investigating Judge Ben Lindsey’s Children’s Court In Denver. Mr. Cutting sdid it was not, but it had lent certain experts to an investiga¬ tion by a Denver organization, which included the Children’s Court- Dr. Charles W. Eliot, John Kays Hammond and George P. Baker are the witnesses to be heard by the commis¬ sion today. The sessions will be con¬ tinued here all next week and the com¬ mission will then go to Chicago to con¬ sider the transportation problem. SHEEP AS VOTERS IS MINE ELECTIONS Bosses, Lawson Tells In¬ dustrial Commission. Witness Asserts Company Con¬ trols Schools, Store, Hospital, Doctor, and Even Coroner. PINCHOT ON FOUNDATIONS Says Nothing Is More Subtle and Powerful Than Their Gifts to Colleges and Universities. 1 workers in the mines to meet the exe- cutive officials of, the company. I told: him that the system would not be of [benefit to the miners; that there was |no organization to back up the demands, of the men, and the success of the system depended solely upon the good¬ will of the operators.” Led on by questions of the members of the commission, Mr. Lawson told of Box Cars Also COUntedT by the the votil1 ® methods that obtained In the • "counties where the mine operators were powerful. The voting of sheep and mules, and even box care, he said, was cojnmon. “ Why, yes,” said the union leader, ' __ [“sheep are voted often. So are mules and box cars oh the siding. You see,- PHARCF^ R1INMFN ARE when the returns were in, the election Uf1AttUfc5 laUIMIVItra Ant, UdtU judges who are usually mine bosses or _I camp liquor dealers, called up head¬ quarters and asked how many votes were needed. Then they’d count a flock j of sheep or a bunch of mules or a string of cars to fix the returns.” In picturesque language the witness said the social life of miners in Colo¬ rado had been very limited, especially in closed camps, where a kind of despot¬ ism prevailed, the coal companies own- ! ing all the buildings, running the schools j and churches, and even directing the recreations of the workers. From a list , the witness read, that 44 men had been killed in mine accidents in Colorado last year, leaving 27 widows and 81 orphan children. High Mortality in Colorado. The fatalities in the Colorado mines have been so much higher than any place in the world,” said Mr. Lawson, that humanity has been shocked. Even if a family is paid $305.40, how far does that go with them? This is the human side of it that seems to get so little consideration from these operators.” The witness told of the domination of the companies in all the activities of life there. A young man going to one of the camps and being put to work, he said, would have to go to the company store, to the company doctor, and, if hui-t, to a company hospital. And I want to say, Mr. Chairman,” ;jcontinued Mr. LaWson, “ that if he died he would be examined by a company Coroner, who Selects men who are friendly to the company. I have known only two verdicts ever to have been ren¬ dered which were unfavorable to the coal companies. The Coroners have a habit of giving a verdict that the man committed suicide or was killed by his own careless icss. One Coroner I heard of went further and marked the papers in the ease of one young man: ‘ No re¬ lations and d—n few friends.’ I am not sure but that the company also helped furnish the cemetery in which the man was buried.” Mr. Lawson said the miners were never known to fail to face danger, to save either life or property. They were not permitted, he said, to have clubs or organizations of any kind. “ The camps have detectives and gun¬ men Marshals,” he declared, “ and if the men get together in a group to dis¬ cuss grievances or their condition in any way, they know they are liable to be put out of the camp, and the camp Mar¬ shals have actually driven men out for this. The company has supervision over the churches. It Interferes with the': minister: of the Gospel, who lives in the camp, and he has to say what the com¬ pany boss or Superintendent wants him to say. It is the same with the school John R. Lawson, executive member for Colorado of the United Mine Work¬ ers of America, continued his testimony before the Industrial Relations Commis¬ sion at the City Hall yesterday regard¬ ing mine conditions in that State. When he had finished Amos R. Pinchot read a long statement in the form of replies to a list of questions the commission had asked him. The testimony of both men was an attack upon John D. Rock¬ efeller, Jr., and the methods he repre¬ sented. J. P. Morgan is expected to be the witness tomorrow. Following the lines of his testimony on Friday, Mr. Lawson told of the soci#.l environment of the miners in Colorado and of the conditions in the Colora¬ do coal region during the strike last year. He also detailed the conversation he had had with Mr. Rockefeller at the latter’s office on Friday. The labor leader admitted that he had met Mr. Rockefeller “ simply as one American citizen meeting another, and not as an -officer of the United Mine Workers.” He said he called on Mr. Rockefeller with' Edward L. Doyle, an¬ other official of the miners’ union, at the request of Frank, P. Walsh, Chairman of the commission, and he gave this de¬ scription of what had taken place: “ I was Informed that Mr. Rocke- feller wanted talk with me on Colorado (matters, I was unable to see him, and | later I received a message that Mr. [ Rockefeller would be at his office until 1 o’clock yesterday to see me. > Opposed Itoclcefeller Flap. Hpyle and I went teHMiir Rocke-, feller’s offipe. The interview was pleas¬ ant, the situation in Colorado was gone over, and Mr. Rockefeller asked my opinion as to the value of the system of electin; rical amusements — only an occasional lithe city, State or Federal Government dance.” I j should go into. Industrial production, as Leaders’ Homes Uynnsnited. j I he , advocated competition in industry. The witness said that during the : ' Tn order to have such competitive in¬ strike at Newcastle,- Col., in.1003, John dustr y the Government must make s 10 ine value oi uie sytsLein vv -- * - renresentatives from the !| teacher. And the men have no theat- I),-'Rockefeller Jr., according'to the re¬ port of the Congressional Commission, had made a statement that the labor leaders should be driven out of the State. “ This statement,” went on the wit¬ ness, “ was ! made in the latter part of Noyember or early ip December. I don’t know that it had anything to do with what happened, and I hope not, but on the night of Dee. 17, 1003, the homes of five labor leaders in Newcastle were dy¬ namited and blown up.” His own house, Mr. Lawson testified, j was among those destroyed. No arrests : were ever made, he said, for the same reason that very few men were ever ar¬ rested or tried for depredations against union men. He continued: “ According to the reports of the in¬ vestigation made on April <3, 1914, John D. Rockefeller, Jr., made the statement that he would not recognize the United Mine Workers of America, and would rather lose all they had in mines in Colorado than recognize the union. On April 20, just two weeks later to 'a day, Colorado had its Ludlow. I hope it had no connection with Mr. Rocke¬ feller’s statement, but I want to Call your attention to it, and I,think that men of such great power and whose words mean so much, especially to gun¬ men in the industry, ought to be very careful as to what words' they use.” The witness said that; the Colorado transportation and the raw materials, which are the basis of. industry, acces¬ sible to all on equal terms. “ That Is why I advocate Government ownership of railroads and Government ownership of natural resources with a leasing system such as is now in prac¬ tice with regard to water power on Fed¬ eral'property,” said Mr. Pinchot. Asked about his opinion regarding col¬ lective bargaining, the witness said: “ At this State in the woi'ld’s develop¬ ment, it seems, to me utterly iutiie to discuss whethef or not labor should have the right to bargain collectively with capital. We might as well discuss whether slavery or freedom is the bet¬ ter plan ” “ In my opinion the cause of the in¬ dustrial unrest in this country is the fact that there are more men than there are jobs all the time, and in hard times often a dozen men for each job,” he continued. /“ This results in a condi¬ tion where , the men are bidding- against each other [for the -jobs. The line which we ought to take in attacking such a situation is to develop industry to a point where there are more jobs than there are men. And this cannot be done simply by forcing the employers to recognize the unions and assent to col¬ lective bargaining.” The very cornerstone of the system of industrial exploitation, said Mr. Pinchot, was that the owners should keep them¬ selves in ignorance of the actual acts of [oppression practiced by the managers in Fuel and Iron Company did not slop Icharge of the property, the use of scrip until January, 1913, although a law had been passed in Colo¬ rado in 1899 prohibiting the use of sorip, at mines and providing that workers be paid in cash. Other State laws, he as¬ serted, were violated by the company. Commissioner Weinstock read the tes- That this ignorance of working con¬ ditions is an essential part of the sys¬ tem of exploitation,” he testified, “is disclosed by Mr. Rockefeller's testimony both > before this commission and before the Congressional Committee, as well as by his correspondence. This shows that timony given on Friday by Dr. Charles ; he was familiar with such details as the W. Eliot, in which he said that It was 'buildin’g of churches , on the Colorado wrong to elect one who had been con-[Fuel and, Iron property, the hiring of victed of crime as the head of a laoor Elbert Hubbard to carry on publicity unidn. The Commissioner asked Mr. work, the retaining of Ivy Lee at a Lawson how he Stood on that proposi- [thousand dollars a month, the existence tion. [- : ' of clergymen of socialistic views, the “ The great corporations and combi- hiring of automobiles for imported nations of capital in this codntry,” re- preachers in the mining district, and plied the witness, “ can take any man the payment of members of the militia or woman and convict them of any .out of the company’s funds, crime, and until t.he time comes when , the laboring man has the same standing Ignorance As An Asset, in court as* the moneyed man I must „ . . , . disagree with Dr. Eliot. For my own. But as to wages and living cottdl- part, I believe if a man is guilty of a jtions in general and especially as to crime he ought to be punished, and tuat [the tyranny of thev company ; over the |reat r eir mUno e naire & C Ve ^counli /, thousands of men and women who are ought to be punished and no criminal dependent on it, Mr. Rockefeller claims, of any kind be fostered.” and I believe his claim is true, that Lawson’s Advice to Arm. he kept, himself in the most complete Commissioner Weinstock referred to ignorance. In his testimony before the a pamphlet in which labor leaders called Congressional Committee he goes so far on the members of the union in Colo- as to state that be was unaware of rado in the strike to arm themselves. the existence of the slightest discon- The name of the witness was among tent on th « P^t of the miners. Tgnor- those signed to the call, and he was ; ance on the part of the actual con- asked if he did not think it was a vio- [trolling interest of an industrial corpo- lation of the law. He replied' that he nation and the delegation" of full respon- did not think so. as it was issued two ;sibility to the management at the plant days after the Ludlow affair. The wit- becomes an asset to business under the ness said he did not care to go into de- present system of absentee control.” tails regarding the matter, as he was Referring to Mr. Rockefeller as a type now under nineteen indictments in Col- bf absentee landlord, Mr. Pinchot re- orado on account of the strike, and he . did not feel at liberty to speak fully. ,, 7 :?. . , . , „ Mr. Lawson thought very few strikes Ills innocence of knowledge of con- had occurred in this country on account ditions upon the property gives him the of violations of nontractaon the Part of privilege of appearing before the public labor unions. There might have been , -I local strikes here and there by mem¬ bers of local unions who perhaps were not good union men,; hut every single case which had been brought before the Internatipnal Executive Board of the Mine Workers had been followed by the men being ordered back to work or surrendering their charter. Regarding his own union, the witness said it was as near a democratic or¬ ganization as any in the country, He. said there were about 300 union men under indictment in Colorado in connec¬ tion with the recent strike, but not one operator. Three militiamen, he said, had been before a military court in con¬ nection with the killing of three men and fourteen women and children, but that all had been cleared and released. The witness Was asked if he. had passed through any unpleasant exper' as free from responsibility for the atrocities in Colorado as Little Eva in ‘ Uncle Tom’s Cabin ’ was guiltless of the acts of Simon Legree.” Asked his opinion of the influence of large donations by the Rockefeller or other great foundations on schools and universities, Mr. ’bnchot said: “Nothing is more powerful and subtle than the influence of such dona¬ tions upon institutions whose existence is largely dependent on donations. “ The Rockefeller Foundation is a corporation organized under the laws of the State of New York, with a char¬ ter so broad as to include almost every human activity. On the other hand, its control is absolutely a Rockefeller con¬ trol. A. majority of its Directors are men who are, or have been, employed ences because of his labor activities, and ' by Mr. Rockefeller, and who have pub- replied. “ I have been followed by the gun¬ men and thugs of the operators. I have been arrested and put in jail, charged with carrying a gun, when I had no gun. I was shot in broad daylight in the streets of Newcastle in 1903, and several little things like that.” Commissioner Weinstock wanted to know why the men did not move away from the camps if conditions were so licly expressed the opinion that the Rockefeller system as exemplified in the Colorado coal fields is a high expression of American industrialism. The Rock¬ efeller Foundation has an immense an¬ nual income, which will probably aver¬ age about $5,000,0(X). The General Edu¬ cation Board, whose report has just bejen published, is also a Rockefeller concern. Into the Treasury of the board Mr. Rockefeller has paid $53,(XX),000, a bad and the witness replied that they .part of which was in bonds of the Col- moved to the camps expecting to find dorado Fuel and Iron Company, conditions better, had to work day after Assuming that the Rockefeller dav to keep the wolf from the door and foundation, as well as the General did not have money enough to move [Education Board, may have to do with their families away. Wage earners (educational matters, I can see a grave were in the majority in Colorado, the danger in the acceptance by universities witness said, but many did not pos- | and schools of t donations upon a large sess intelligence and had not' been edu¬ cated to a very high political standard. “ Democracy in Colorado has been a most miserable failure for many years.” the witness declared. ■“ We have the recall, but we have found it so expensive and cumbersome as to be inadvisable to resort to it ” Wages in Colorado were lower than in Wyoming, Montana, and Washington, Mr. Lawson asserted. “ It is not what a man earns in Colo¬ rado that counts,” he added. “ It is what he gets when they get through with him.” Mr. Pincliot on the Stand. Mr. Pinchot, the next witness, said he was a lawyer and had made a study of industrial questions especially as they applied to corporations. He began by explaining that he believed it was of the highest importance that an investiga¬ tion should be conducted by the com¬ mission or some similar body into the handling of news in labor controversies as the influence of public opinion could be justly exerted only when the public ; was put in possession of the facts. The witness said that he did not believe-that j scale from such sources.” Mr. Pinchot said that the smaller col¬ leges of the country were full of in¬ structors and professors who had not been deliberately driven from larger uni¬ versities on account of economic opinions unfriendly to “ benevolent exploiters in industry,” but who, nevertheless,: “ have found their chairs , in the large univer¬ sities untenable and have left them, owing to influences which were irre¬ sistible, hut too subtle to complain about aloud.” The commission adjourned until 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, to meet in the Assembly Hall in the Metropolitan Life Building, 1 Madison Avenue, where Mr. Pinchot will conclude his testimony. Besides J. P. Morgan, another witness is expected to be James Mackaye of Boston. DR. ELIOT’S TESTIMONY. If men gathered figs of thistles. It might be suspected that the golden j opinion, reaped of the Rockefeller) Foundation from the testimony of President Emeritus Eliot of Harvard before the Industrial Relations Com¬ mission was without merit. The fact I remains that Dr. Eliot is himself a I responsible Trustee of this great fund, j No one questions for a moment his j wisdom and his unselfish public spirit. He has given to it his service ■ freely, ; because, he says, the Foundation is the “ largest and freest benevolence ‘-‘ ever attempted in the world that I “ have ever heard anything about.” Is it likely that any interference by the Government with private munifi¬ cence is going to enlarge the number of such benefactions in future? Will it improve the management of insti¬ tutions which, in a brief period, have made the honorable records won by the Rockefeller Institute, the Carne¬ gie Institution, and other similar foundations? The recent report of the General Education Board is a con¬ clusive proof of the beneficence in a wider field of the same principles which American experience has vin¬ dicated in the private endowment of | educational and research institutions, ©r. 'Eliot testified that he knew! many instances of colleges and sec- MORGAN SILENT ON LABOR PROBLEMS 1 - —( Supposes $10 Enough for Long¬ shoreman “If That’s Ail He Can Get and He Takes It.” OPINIONS ON BANKING ONLY Industrial Commission Asks Him in Vain About Hours, Pay, and Unequal Wealth. MITCHELL UPHOLDS UNIONS Miners’ Ex-President Calls Rocke. feller Plan to Hear Colorado Grievances “Absurd.” J. Pierpont Morgan testified before the United States Industrial Relations Committee for just three-quarters of an hour yesterday, and in that time he proved so unresponsive to the questipns regarding sociology, the rights of labor¬ ing men, ‘labor unions, and the causes of industrial unrest that , the members of the committee gladly let him depart with the remark: * “You are permanently excused, Mr. Morgan.” Mr. Morgan was tei’se in his replies and plainly let it be known that it was a waste of time to heckle him on any subject except that in which he was directly concerned, hanking. Several times he made the large audience of social reformers, I. W. W. sympathizers, and the ordinary curiosity, seekers gasp by nonchalantly admitting, with- an en¬ gaging laugh, that he knew nothing whatever about how long employes should labor, at, what age . children should go to work, or the relations toe- tween capital and latoor. When, in sheer desperation, one of the i Commissioners tried to get Mr. Mor- gan’s opinipn regarding the unequal dis¬ tribution of wealth or to what extent ondary schools being - “ influenced ” by the General Education Board, but “ never was the influence bad, it wajs always good.” A check to its influence would at oftce he applied if it became harmful, or even if its views and policies be¬ came unsound. Should such a board foolishly attempt to influence educa¬ tion in unwise directions, its sugges¬ tions would be utterly futile. But the General Education Board, the Car- i negie Institution, and like bodies have in fact taken the only effective^means known of making their conduct and direction Sound and helpful—they have put on their governing boards men who represent the best that the United States has done and thought in education, If that is not true Mr. Walsh’s commission would do a pub¬ lic service in showing the contrary. Not the least responsible of the functions of these governors is the choice of their own successors. The quality and personnel of their boards is until now conclusive proof that vacancies are filled with a full real¬ ization of the, opportunities and re¬ sponsibilities involved, without defer¬ ence to political or other considera¬ tions. How Would it be if—as Mr. Walsh manifestly wishes—the great benefactions, should be managed po¬ litically? _____________ ; poverty exists and its cause, the finan- I cier frankly admitted that he had no | opinions on the question whatever. Mr. Morgan told at length of the various corporations in* which he was a Director, and how the responsibility of those corporations was divided be¬ tween the Directors and the officers. He readily answered all questions relat¬ ing to the duties of these men; Morgan Waits* Half an Hour. 1 Before he took the stand, Mr. Morgan j was kept waiting half an hour until ! John Mitchell, former President of the | United Mine Workers of America, com- | pleted his testimony regarding mining 1 conditions in the anthracite regions of Pennsylvania and in other parts of the country. The > commission held its ses¬ sion in the assembly room, of the Met¬ ropolitan Building, 1 Madison Avenue, and the large hall was crowded. A list of, questions. such as had been sent to some other, witnesses before j they appeared had not been sent to -Mr. ;f I Morgan. When he took the stand be | was asked to name the corporations in '■ which he was a Director. He named I five, which included the United States Steel Corporation, the International Mercantile Marine, the Pullman Com¬ pany, and the Northern Pacific Rail¬ way. He said he had been a Director In the Western Union Telegraph Com¬ pany, but was not now., He also had at present an interest in or represented clients in between twenty-five and fifty, railroads. Asked how many men the Northern Pacific employed, the witness said he hadn’t an idea. Neither did he know how many men the other corpora¬ tions employed, although he thought the United States Steel Corporation gave work to about 170,000. The witness said that as Director of these various companies he received re¬ ports on the financial condition of the property and that as a member of the Executive Committees of some of them he knew that the Directors received re¬ ports from officers on financial mat¬ ters and general conditions. The Di¬ rectors, he said, received no reports on labor conditions, except those con¬ tained in annual reports. The International Mercantile Marine, Mr. Morgan said, had a monthly meeting / for Directors and a weekly meeting for the Executive Committee.-..He attended probably ten of the monthly meetings last year and as many of the weekly meetings as possible. He also attended about as many meetings of the Steel Corporation. Between meetings, he said, the Directors got together when¬ ever necessary and discussed matters with the officers. Visited Some Plants. Asked ifv he had visited the various plants regularly, the witness replied that he had visited some of them. He said he had not inspected any of the factories ,, or railroads in 1914 and couldn’t remem4 her inspecting any in 1913, but in the |. last five years he had inspected the Gary plants of the Steel Corporation, /the Edgar works, the tube works at Pittsburgh, and some others, and had been on the ships of the Mercantile Ma¬ rine. Plow far do you think stockholders and Directors are responsible for labor conditions?” asked Chairman Walsh. “ I don’t think stockholders have any responsibility in that matter,” replied Mr. Morgan. “ How about Directors? ” “ None at all.” ** Who is responsible? ” “The officers, the executive officials, Or people whom they appoint to take charge of the plants. The officers are responsible, as they have to see that those they appoint carry out their in¬ structions.” The Directors, the witness said, had »o authority so far as labor was oon- cerned. Asked if. he did not think labor reports were as necessary as financial reports, the witness said it was not nec- i iCSS^ry, because constant changes did not occur-regarding labor matters as in financial matters. ... " Do you not think that this policy ha3 Been adopted because it has been ,the custom ? ” Mr. Waul*sh asked. “On the contrary,” replied Mr. Mor¬ gan, with a short laugh, “ this policy has been adopted by the Directors be¬ cause it is‘ the natural way of running a company.” ,, , “ Are not labor conditions the only matters that are not subject to some constant auditing checks in the com¬ pany management?.” the Chairman “ If I have, given the impression," the witness replied, “ that we, know noth¬ ing about the condition of labor in the plants it is an erroneous one, for we do know how things go. on, in a general ^Starting an other,, .tack, Mr, Walsh asked Mr. Morgan what he considered the proper length of a working day. “ I haven’t any opinion on that sub¬ ject,” he replied. “ What do you regard as the real in¬ come for an unskilled workman? ” “ There again I have no opinion.” “ Do you consider $10 a week suf¬ ficient to support a longshoreman? ” • “I don’t know,” replied the. witness with one of his short, nervous laughs. “ If that is all he can get and he takes it, I suppose it it enough.” The Chairman had to check a wave of laughter by threats to stop the hear¬ ing before he went on: , ■ ' “ At what age Go you think children should go to work?” “ I haven’t any opinion, was the re T ply; “the later the better, thopgh, I should think.” . . Asked if he thought it proper for corporation to adopt a rule limiting the age of unskilled workmen to be em¬ ployed at thirty-five years, and skilled at forty-five, the witness said it was a question he preferred leaving to the people running the plant. “ Do you think it a good rule social¬ ly?” Mr. Walsh -insisted. “ That is a matter of opinion. “ What is your opinion? ’ “I haven’t any.” , Mr. Morgan said that if men working for a corporation of which he was a Director were not getting money enough to support their families or working conditions bred disease he would do'bis best to get the conditions remedied. I The Executive Committees of which he was a member had discussed labor poli¬ cies many times, but not at the time of a strike, so far as he. could remember He was not sure that the employes of. any of his corporations were organizeu, although he presumed they were, on the Northern Pacific, and he understood there were organizations among the cm- ploves of the Mercantile Marine. “What is your attitude toward labor organizations'? asked - Mr. Walsh. “ I am not opposed to anything they do that is lawful and proper, ’ said tne witness, and he added that he would ( resent men not employed by his organ- i izatiens interfering. Steps to Allay Discontent. j Asked if he thought industrial dis- j 'content was oh the increase Mr, Morgan, replied that it seemed to him much had i been done to decrease dissatisfaction, among workmen, that the Steel Cor¬ poration had spent much money on adopting safety methods, and that sometimes wages had been increased without the workingmen asking, for it It was at this point that Wr. Walsh wanted to know about the unequal dis¬ tribution of wealth, and Mr. Morgan said the problem was too deep for him, that he preferred to leave the subject with the commission for settlement. “ Is the present industrial condition responsible for the existing poverty? asked Mr. Walsh. “ I should say not,” was the reply, and when the Chairman wanted to know what Mr. Morgafn had done privately to lessen distress, the witness shook his head and said he couldn’t go into that. “ I have helped where I can, as most people do,” was all he would vouchsafe. The Chairman wanted to know what the witness thought of heavily endowed foundations as a means of improving social conditions, and Mr. Morgan re¬ plied that the Rockefeller Foundation had helped a great deal in a medical way, and that the Carnegie libraries had helped many thousands. - Commissioner Weinstock read some ot the testimony given by Samuel Unter- myer to the effect that the railways ot the country were dominated by two great financial groups, the Morgan in¬ terests and Kuhn, Loeb & Co. I “I should say that he was entirely - incorrect,” said Mr, Morgan emphatical- - ly. “I can’t speak for Kuhn, .Loeb Co., but if we have.dominated the rail¬ ways of the country I haven t no- ^-The witness said his firm had helped / aailway companies in selling their ^se¬ curities and m giving advice when needed, but that was all. Commissioner Weinstock wanted to know if Mr. Mor¬ gan had given any study to economical matters, and the financier replied: “ I have other problems of my own to j handle, and I havenit given much study to those matters.” -- The banker said he did not know whether the American Federation of 1 Labor had been of any advantage to labor, but that he. would bo opposed to organized labor dictating who he should employ. The Commissioner here used the term " collective bargaining ” which had been employed a good deal at the hearing, and Mr. Morgan wanted to know what it meant. Mr. Wein¬ stock explained at length, arid the wit¬ ness said he saw no moral law involved, only a matter of convenience, and that it did not seem to deal with principles; Labor men, he said, were inclined to get in a corner by themselves and con¬ sider everything from their own view¬ point. Says Every One Sltonld Help. “Most of us work in tills country,” said the witness. “Each one has to do his part, the employer as well as the worker. Every one has got to do what he can to help conditions. It is a mat¬ ter for each man to decide for him¬ self.” The Commissioner attempted to ex¬ plain at this point the purpose of social service, and Mr. Morgan interrupted him with— “ Your purpose is admirable, but it is beyond me. I haven’t got the right capacity to grasp it: otherwise I would be only too glad to help.” The other Commissioners, one by one, dustrial reform, and they gave; up trying. The first witness at the morning ses¬ sion was Amos Pinehot, who finished reading hi s answer s to the. list of ques¬ tions submitted to him. Part of these j replies had to do with an attack on The Associated Press, which, Mi'. Pinehot | said, had sent out false reports of labor troubles. John Mitchell, who Is a member of the Workmen’s Compensation Commission of; New York State told the peeds of ! the workingman and the necessity for j organization* “ There can and should be no perma¬ nent industrial peace unless that peace is based upon industrial righteousness,” said Mr. Mitchell. “ Workingmen can¬ not be denied the right to organize and on this, I think, depends their con¬ tentment arid happiness. The industrial discontent is not necessarily an evil, but it must be a healthy, constructive dis¬ content.. It must »e a constructive de¬ sire for better things, better homes, and a gradual improvement in t,he conditions of life and labor. This discontent among the disorganized too often shows itself in acts of rebellion and industrial revo¬ lution.” Mr. Mitchell cited the strikes at Law¬ rence, Paterson, and in the West Vir¬ ginian coal fields as instances where ; the denial of the right of association j led men and women to strike. If they had been allowed full freedom in or¬ ganization, he thought, the strikes would not have occurred. “ There can be no permanent peace,” Mr. Mitchell went on, “ until workers have the right to collective bargaining for-the sale of their labor. It is not enough that the heads of these cor¬ porations offer other inducements. The workers do not want gifts, but ide- jpendence. They want security for their jobsi and they canriot have this without organization.” The witness said that deaths and accidents yyere greater in the unor¬ ganized communities. , .He told of the strikes in the anthracite coal regions and how conditions among the miners had improved since the settlement. He thought the best plan for a permanent settlement of. labor disputes was for the companies and the representatives of the Union to formulate some agree¬ ment regulating conditions. Rockefeller Plan ‘‘Absurd.” Asked what he thought of the plan mentioned by John D, Rockefeller, Jr., as having been put into effect by the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company, where¬ by; representatives of the men meet the officials of the company to discuss matters of mutual concern, he said: “ It is simply absurd. The men would not be free to select the men they Wanted to represent them and would be sure to select the men the company wanted. Men must be organized before they can select the representatives they want.” Commissioner Weinstock asked about the .call to arms made by the leaders in Colorado last year. Mr. Mitchell replied ; that, if he had been in charge at the j .time he. "didn’t think he would have ! issued such a call, but it .was hard to say what he would have; done two days after the Ludlow shooting. The witness did not believe in incor¬ porating labor unions, and said that j unions could be held responsible in law suits without incorporation. Commis¬ sioner Garretson asked-Mr. Mitchell if improvement in living conditions did not ; sometimes follow a refusal to obey un¬ just laws, and the answer Mr. Mitchell j made caused a loud cheer from the au- ! dience. “ I think every irnprovement in gov- ; eminent since history began has been because of tlfe refusal to obey laws,” he I said. The establishment of trie Amer¬ ican Republic was on account of the re¬ fusal to obey law.” Amohg the witnesses to be' examined +2 F J - T;. Costigan, attorney for the Colorado miners; Jerome *D. Greene, Executive Secretary of the Rockefeller foundation, and Wallace Butterlck, Ex¬ ecutive: Secretary of the General Educa¬ tion. .Board, £ Parts of Mr, Morgan's testimony be- * 1 * * * fore the Industrial Relations Commis- / sion yesterday will undoubtedly be used against him. He will be pictured as a banking and corporation magnate who never gives a thought to the welfare of workingmen. This would be highly un¬ fair, as Mr. Morgan took pains to ex¬ plain that his theory of the responsibil¬ ity of executive officers for the condi¬ tions of labor under them was not in¬ consistent with warm personal sympa¬ thy for the toilers, and with rational ef¬ forts to brighten their lot. And on the main point of refusing to produce, for the delectation of the Commission, a neat little panacea for every imaginable social evil, Mr. Morgan was wholly ad¬ mirable. There has been far too much haphazard bringing out of “great thoughts” before the Commission. Each witness has been confidently asked for his own private solution of the problem of poverty, and, in general, his theory of the mystery of the' universe, stated in words of one syllable. By setting his face against all this nonsense, by stick¬ ing to the things he knew and declining #0 make his ignorance the basis of infer¬ ence-above all, by refusing to join the ranks of the social quacks, with their guaranteed sure cures for every disease of modern life—Mr. Morgan has placed Ts all in his deht. SEES TWO SIDES E. P. Costigan Says “ Business Man Imposed Silence on Phil¬ anthropist” in Colorado. AUTOCRACY IN HIS ATTITUDE J. D. Greene Follows Miners’ Counsel with Vigorous De¬ fense of the Foundation. TELLS ITS ALTRUISTIC AIMS Two Women, One Bereaved at Lud¬ low, to Testify Before Indus¬ trial Commission Today. A bitter attack on tlie Rockefeller Foundation by Edward P. Costigan, counsel for the United Mine Workers of America, and as vigorous a defense of that organization by its secretary, Jerome D. Greene, occupied most of the time at the hearing yesterday be¬ fore the industrial Relations Commis¬ sion in the Metropolitan Building. Ab¬ sentee landlordism Mr. Costigan gave as the basis of. the Colorado labor troubles, while the Foundation, he said, was a failure because it was being pro¬ moted for personal advantage, to the exclusion of public affairs. Mr. Greene, in his defense of the Foundation, read a long list of names of the men who compose the various boards, and said that the character of these men and the positions they held in the community should; be sufficient refutation of any suggestion that they would attempt to promote the pecuniary welfare of the donor. The witness vead a memorandum, which he presented on his own respon¬ sibility to the members of the Rocke¬ feller Foundation at their first meeting on Oct. 22, 1913, and which was ac¬ cepted as formulating the general prin¬ ciples and policies of giving that seemed to Mr. Greene characteristic of Mr. Rockefeller and the boards established by him. Before Mr. Costigan left the stand he obtained the consent of Chairman Walsh to hfear the testimony of two women survivors of the “ massacre of Ludlow,” Mrs. Mary Dominiski and Mrs. Virginia Petrucci. They will be allowed to tell their stories today. They were present at yesterday’s session and sobbed softly as Mr. Costigan told the story of the battle between the miners and the mili¬ tia. in which Mrs. Petrucci’s three chil¬ dren were smothered to death. Attacks Rockefeller Fund. Mr. Costigan said he had been em¬ ployed to represent the United Mine Workers of America in. February, 1914, at the Congressional Committee inves¬ tigation of the Colorado coal strike, and that last. September he had testified be¬ fore the present commission in Denver. His., attack' on the foundation was con¬ tained in a statement which he read. He said it was particularly appropriate that the Rockefeller Foundation should be investigated* as a benevolent enter¬ prise in view of what had occurred in Colorado, and in the light of the re¬ cent report that some $10,414,918 out of $103,930,000 owned by the Rockefeller Foundation was in the shape of stock and bonds of corporations doing more or less business in Colorado. What happened in Colorado last April, ! Mr. Costigan said, was in striking re¬ spects similar to what happened in Law¬ rence, Mass., and in New Jersey a fort¬ night ago, and might happen in any other State unless sufficient remedies were applied. “ In a great human crisis, precipitated within the very household, industrially speaking, of Mr. Rockefeller,” said Mr. S Costigan, “ his Foundation has been heedless or impotent, and the conclu¬ sion forced on an unprejudiced public has been and is that Mr. Rockefeller, the business man, has, cold-heartedly and without hesitation, brushed aside and imposed silence on Mr. Rockefeller, the philanthropist. “ The fundamental fault alike of Mr. Rockefeller’s business methods and his philanthropies would appear to lie in its personal direction and its promotion of personal advantage, to the exclusion of 1 the public welfare. In the investigation of the hookworm in the South, the vice j districts of Chicago and New York, and in his generous donations to the Belgian Fund Mr. Rockefeller has shown the splendid side and possibilities of intelli¬ gent charity. For these beneficent acts he is entitled to and doubtless will re- • ceive public approbation. Complains of Autocracy. " The fundamental fault in Mr. Rocke¬ feller’s attitude toward the public and the workers appears to lie in its under¬ mining autocracy. We have in the , Rockefeller Foundation a supreme ex¬ ample; of the philanthropy which dead¬ ens, by its large benefactions, a public criticism, which otherwise would be as formidable as inevitable.” The witness said that in Colorado, where Mr. Rockefeller was financially interested on the earning side, he had ignored the standards to which the j foundation was dedicated, as he relied on three men, Mr. Bowers, Mr. Wei -1 born, and Mr. Weitzel, and took their! report of conditions as conclusive, re¬ gardless of disinterested advice. Mr. j Rockefeller did not do this, Mr. Costi¬ gan asserted, when the vice districts of New York and Chicago were under j scrutiny, but sent expert and incor¬ ruptible investigators to find out condi-, tions. ' “He sat indifferent,” the witness con¬ tinued, “ his eyes closed and his ears deaf to the sorrows and cries of men, women, and children in Colorado, allow¬ ing Mr. Welborn and his associates to act as judges in their own case with 1 reference to complaints against tyran¬ nous and lawless practices uttered by thousands of men in their employ. It is not too much to say that a philan¬ thropy so inconsistent, unless corrected and 'liberated, must become a menace to the civilization it purports to serve. Mr. Rockefeller plans to do his own investigating, and he conducted his own settlement or our industrial difficulties. He does not recognize the supremacy of social rights or the soundness or im¬ partiality of governmental investiga¬ tions., / He plans to drive all the. time, with the reins forever in his own hands. | Nothing could more clearly demonstrate that the Rockefeller Foundation is pri¬ marily an asset of the Rockefeller in¬ dustrialism, and only secondarily a pub¬ lic charity. It is pertinent to remember that even feudalism and slavery boasted of their occasional generosity. “ Social, industrial, and Governmental justice are more important than char¬ ity, and private charity, whether from a dead or living hand, doses the mouth of criticism, blinds society to the faults of the benefactor, whether of omission or commission, and permits the philan¬ thropist to plume himself on virtues, forgetful of offenses: with consequent i; false standards all along the line, de¬ laying the day of democracy and equal¬ ity of opportunity for the workers. Causing Industrial Unrest. 1 “ When private philanthropy results merely in further exploitation, is it not time to turn to public agencies for the conservation alike of property and the rights of living men, women, and chil¬ dren? The most generous estimate a j somewhat, disillusioned public. will place ;on Mr. Rockefeller’s activities is'that his Foundation is dealing with effects, ( while through the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company and other industrial fancies he is actually and visibly feed¬ ing the flames and causes of industrial [Unrest.” I Asked if the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company did not have the right to re¬ fuse to deal with labor organizations, the witness said that the failure to rec¬ ognize the union was not so important as was the failure to confer - “ As I regard it,” he testified, “ the human right to work or to quit work ought to be held higher than any con¬ venience of the employer, * and this human right should always be con- siaered. . “ Take the I. W. .W. organization, for instance, said Commissioner Wein- stock. “ They avowedly proclaim them- seives contract breakers and say out- nght that they feel themselves at per¬ fect liberty to break any agreement that they make with an employer. You would not blame an employer for refus- ing to deal with an organization like I that, would you ?” “ Supposing your premise to he - M; was the reply, -an employer i might not be blamed for refusing to make an agreement under such circum- i stances, but my belief is that ethicallv collective capital has no right to de- c to confer with collective labor.” L;. 6 witness was asked if the United Mine Workers were officially committed sto socialism. He was unable to answer, but John R. Lawson, executive member from Colorado, who was in the audi¬ ence, said the organization was not; that socialism was an individual matter with I each member. (< Questions about the circular headeii A. Call to Arms,” isshed over the sig¬ natures r>f some of the labor leaders two days after the Ludlow shooting, Mr Liwson, after reciting the circumstances oh the fight, said he supposed the appeal was wrong, but thought there were strong extenuating circumstances. Greene Defends Foundation. Mr. Greene' was the next witness. He i was youthful looking and surprised the audience by stating that he had been secretary to the Harvard Corporation for five years, that for four years he had been secretary t° Dr. Charles W. Eliot, that he had been general manager of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, and had been a member of ^n£°S k ^ eller s P ers °nal staff until he 1915 d hlS present Position on Jan. 1, T .^°r many years, he said, John D. earned on philanthropic al ong the lines represented by the foundation and he had ^stttuted the Foundation in order to widen the scope of the work. It was natural, Mr. Greene said, that Mr. Rockefeller should choose men in his Y ho ha .d been associated with ™ an d accustomed to his methods to cairy on the work. h s T e a ,S? r ! Ddura whlch the witness had submitted as an expression of the P/unciPks and policies of the Founda- that nidividual charity and i eiiet weie excluded except as the of aid & iv ® n to other insti¬ tutions, well organized for such pur- PS|#’,an$, t^ at .applications for theaid ^ tl0 , s or enterprises that were «,-X Ca i we - re excluded, except as aid might be given to their establish¬ ment as models to other localities, and as part of- a general plan for the en- A 0r improvement of similar institutions. Another principle laid down was tnis: R may be said that when an indi- ^nal or an institution goes into a com¬ munity with the intention of making a contribution to its welfare, no gift of money however large, and no outside agency, however wise or good, can ren¬ der a service of unqualified good and permanent value except so far as the gift or the agency offers the means or fccasibn for evoking from the Com- ; K^ y °-I n recognition of the need met- its own will to meet that need_ and its own resources. Doth ma- teriai and spiritual, wherewith to meet Another principle stated was that it unwise for an institution like the Rockefeller Foundation to assume per¬ manently or indefinitely a share of'the ay current expenses of an endowed mstitu- tion Which it did not avowedly control and that, on the other hand, the Foun¬ dation must carefully avoid the dan¬ gers incident to gifts in perpetuity.” ! Mast Express the People’s Will. “ No great philanthropic trust can per¬ manently endure as a paternal institu¬ tion far ahead of the people in wisdom and foresight,” the memorandum stated. “ Its wisdom and foresight must in some true sense, like the political government express the will and intelligence of the people. Its wisdom and foresight must at least be susceptible of recognition bv the peopie in order that they may follow willingly and affectively where it leads. In short, the policy , of the trust must, in the long run, be democratic. To accom¬ plish this result a plan should be de¬ vised whereby the accountability of the Rockefeller Foundation to the people of the United States should he clearly ex¬ pressed through periodic reports.” Mr. Greene said these men composed the various hoards of the Foundation: Edwin A. Alderman, President of the University of Virginia; Dr. Hermann M. Biggs, Health- Commissioner of New York State; Wallace Butterick, Andrew Carnegie, P. P. Claxt'on, United States Commissioner of Education: Charles W Eliot, Hollis. B. Frissell, Principal Hampton Institute: Anraham Fiexner, Simon Fiexner, Frederick T. Gates, Frank J. Goodnow, President Johns Hopkins University; William C. Gorgas, Surgeon General United States Army; A. Barton Hepburn, L. Emmett Holt, David F. Houston, Secretary of Agri- culture; Prof. Theodore C. Janeway of Johns Hopkms University; Harry Prat' Judson, President University of Chi¬ cago; J. V. Jayner, Superintendent of Education of North Carolina; Edgar L Marston, John R. Mott, Starr J. Mur¬ phy, Walter H. Page, American Am¬ bassador at London; Francis W Pea- body, T. Mitchell Prudden, John D Rockefeller, John D. Rockefeller, Jr.,’ Wickliffe Rose, Albert Shaw, Editor Review of Reviews; Theobald Smith, Charles W. Stiles, Anson Phelps Stokes, Secretary Yale University; George E. Vincent, President University of Min¬ nesota, and William H. Welch, Profes¬ sor of Pathology, kfohns Hopkins Uni¬ versity. Mr. G: lis • mo_ The first witness yesterday whs Fred¬ erick H. Goff of Cleveland, Ohio, a lawyer and banker and President of the Cleveland Trust Company. He said he was the originator of the Cleveland Foundation for the gathering of the surplus wealth of the community for community interests. Cleveland Man’s Opinion. Regarding, large foundations the wit¬ ness said: “I regard the Rockefeller Foundation as the greatest benefaction the world has ever had, if I understand its purpose as described in newspaper accounts, but I cannot help but feel that the holding of so important a trust by a self-perpetu¬ ating board presents a possible danger. The men administering the fund at present are men of rare ability and zeal, but how that is to perpetuated in remote years I do not see. History shows that the tendency of men with such power has been to grow indolent, indifferent, arid slothful. Improperly administered, the Foundation might become a menace.’ 5 The witness Said that in the Cleveland b oundation donors could give directions as to how the gifts were to be distrib¬ uted; but that they must be under the supervision and subject to the revision of. the committee or board. ‘ What funds have you in the Foun¬ dation now? ” asked commissioner Len- |‘We have no funds at present,” the w l tn e s s replied, “ but we have a possibil¬ ity of $30,000,000 or more. It will be necessary for some one to die before the; funds are availably. The Cleveland Foundation may be said to be for the day after tomorrow rather than for to¬ day.” TWO WOMEM DEPICT BATTLE OF LUDLOW Audience in Tears as Miner’s Wife Tells of Smothering of Three Children. FLED FROM FIRE AND SHOTS J. D. Greene Again Defends Rocke¬ feller Fund Before Industrial Relations Commission. The story, of the “massacre of Lud¬ low,” where eleven children and two women were smothered to death and five men shot dead in a clash between striking miners and militiamen sent to guard the property of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company on April 20, 1914, was told yesterday before the Commission on Industrial Relations in the Metropolitan Building, by two min- _ wives—one who had lost three chil- j dren in the encounter and another who j had seen the entire affray. ' ! was by far the most dramatic episode of the hearings. When Mrs. | Mary: Petrucci described in simple Eng¬ lish how she had dragged her little ones into a cellar beneath one of the colony tents that had been set on fire and how she had staggered out the next morn¬ ing to be, carried to a hospital where she remained nine days before learn¬ ing that her children were dead, many women in the audience were heard sob¬ bing while others sat mute with tears coursing down their cheeks. Tried Twice to Testify. For the first time the women told their stories on a witness stand. Twice before, once in Denver and again in Washington, they were present at a session of the commission, but in the first instance, objection was made to their going on tbe stand and in the second they were not able to testify. They took the stand after Jerome D. Greene, Secretary of the Rockefeller Foundation, had finished testifying re¬ garding the purposes of that organiza¬ tion and Mr. Rockefeller’s connection with the Colorado Fuel and‘ Iron Com-, pany. Mrs. Petrucci was born in Hastings, Col., of Italian parents twenty-four years ago and married when but 16. She spoke good English and Impressed the audience as a woman of refinement above her station. The fact that she told what had happened with little dis¬ play of emotion, as if anxious to gep it over as quickly as possible, made the’ telling all the more impressive. She said she went to Ludlow, Col., in Janu¬ ary, 1914, although the strike had been on there since the previous September. The miners! and their families were liv¬ ing in a tent colony that housed between 600 and 700 persons on land leased by the strikers. - A Greek named Tikas and another man named . Files were leaders there. Directly behind the tent occupied by the Petrucci family was a larger one cov¬ ering a cellar, with board walls and flooring. The large tent was used as maternity hospital. The cellar to which the women and children flocked when the tents began to burn has been called since “ the black hole.” Fled with Her Children. “ My tent was the first one to catch fire,” began Mrs. Petrucci in a low voice that was distinctly heard through¬ out the large room. “It was in the evening, and, catching up my three children, I ran out. I had the baby in my arm, the little girl by the hand, and the boy followed. As I ran the militia, who were about twenty-five yards away, began firing at me, and I ran to the cellar for protection. The cellar was about six feet deep and the door was open. There were three women, and eight children already there when I en- ^‘My baby was only six months old, the little girl was two years and a half, and the boy was four years old. He would have been five yesterday. Our party made eleven children and four women. I told one woman that they were burning, the tepts, and she said I had better stay there. “ After I had been In the cellar about ten minutes, the tent above us also caught fire. The,soldiers were shooting through the streets of the colony and ,we were afraid to go out. For some reason the door of the cellar had been left; open and the smoke began to come in. Mrs. Coster, one of the women in the cellar, took a quilt and spread it over her two, children and herself to keep, off the smoke, and when I asked her for some of j the quilt to put over my children she said she didn’t have enough for herself. A little later we all lost consciousness, and I don’t know what happened after that. Told of Her Babies’ Death. I “ It was about half past five the next ! morn ng, I guess., when I came to and j crawled out to look for water. I saw five or six tents that were not burned still standing and somehow staggered j toward the station. I met several guards going in the opposite direction and they w6re laughing. I felt just like a drunken person and when I reached the station Mrs. Halloran asked me where my chil¬ dren were. I did not know, and she went back to the camp to look for them. She couldn’t find them and came back to the ■station without them. Then some one told me to get on the train that came along just then and I was taken to Trini¬ dad. I was in the hospital there for nine days and when-I came out they told me that my babies were dead.” Commissioner Weinstock gently asked the woman "several questions. She said that only one other woman and herself came out of the “ black hole ” alive, and that thirteen persons in all were taken out dead. She.. said she didn’t know how the fire started in her tent, and she was too much frightened by the shooting in the street to find, put. “Have you any other children?” asked Mr. Weinstock. “ One died on March 7; the others were killed on April 20,” was the reply. Mrs, Margaret Dominiski, who is- the English wife of a Polish miner, told something of the life in the mining, camps. She has three children, b,■ 8_ and 10 years old. She was plainly dressed, like Mrs. Petrucci, and, like her, held the audience by the simplicity of her story. She has been married eleven years, moved to Colorado from Pennsylvania, ■j. __~ ~ cmucn+opn VP.fl.ra under its charter, had the power to cir- ' culate literature in opposition to a work¬ men’s compensation law. Repellant to Members. “ It could, but it wouldn’t,” said the witness. “ That type of activity is re- pellant to every member of the board.” “ Could it conduct, a propaganda against: trade unionism?” asked the Chairman. “ I can’t imagine its making a start in that direction,” was the reply. “ I know of nothing more atrocious than to use the Foundation for such a purpose.” Regarding the formation of the board, Mr. Greene isaid that it had been decided to. select young men and instruct them in the Rockefeller methods of phi¬ lanthropic work, and that the first sug¬ gestion made was to get Dr. Charles W. Eliot, who was more than eighty years old. The suggestion met with unani¬ mous favor and Dr. Eliot was selected. A. Barton Hepburn also was unani¬ mously chosen as a member because of his fitness for the work. He was questioned next about the Colorado strike, and he said he was convinced of the good will and integ¬ rity of the officials of the Coloradc j' ■ Fuel and Iron Company, whether thejl were men. of: sufficient ability or not The company, he said, was probably' the most progressive of all the compa-j nies in Colorado in its amenability to 1 suggestions from the State Labor De¬ partment and jn welfare work. The foundation, he said, spent about a mill¬ ion dollars in chartering ships and send¬ ing food without investigation for Bel- where she was born, seventeen years ... v __ _ .... -- ntrn and has lived in the Colorado min- gian relief, as help was needed quickly. ’ towns' of Lafayette* Erie and Lud- Asked if the foundation had extended ing towns of Lafayette, low. Plenty of Saloons. " What kind of churches do they have in the mining regions of Southern Colo¬ rado? ” asked Chairman Walsh. “ I never saw any churches except in Trinidad,” was the reply. “ Neither did I ever see any halls for people to meet in,< Have they any saloons? ” was the ”SpiXy“o?' them,” the witness re- P The witness said that prides of goods in the company stores were much highei than in the stores outside, but the miners and their families were not al¬ lowed to trade at these outside stores, Sometimes, she said, a w°man woujd take a trunk and go to Trinidad and brine it back full of provisions, but if she was ever caught at it her husband would be discharged. When the stiike started she joined the tent coldny'with her family. On April 19, the day tol lowing the Greek Easter there was a ball game, and a crowd had turned out to see it. Four militiamen appeared, and when they pointed their guns at the men, one of the women remarked. “ if any body pointed, a real gun at you fellows, you’d run. . , . “ GO ahead, get your fun today, to¬ morrow you’ll -get your roast, one of the soldiers replied, according to the ^Everybody thought the threat, Was a joke, Mrs. Dominislci said. The next morning a soldier appeared at the camp and demanded that Tikas produce .a man they wanted. T ikas assured the Soldier the man was not in the camp. The soldier threatened to search the camp, but he was warned away. A lit¬ tle later Tikas was called to thei rail¬ way station and a woman said that tbe militia was approaching. Mrs. Domin¬ iski said she left her children with a neighbor and went to look for her hus¬ band. She found him, and Tikas ran up, waving a handkerchief and calling to everybody to get out of the way, as there was trouble ahead. Shortly after Tikas was killed by one of the soldiers.® With other women and children, the witness said, she ran to the top of a hill and hid in a large well. The sol¬ diers began firing with machine guns, she continued, and narrowly missed hit¬ ting some of the children. The well be¬ coming unsafe, she ran to a barn and hid there for a time. Later she de¬ serted it for a ditch. After that she went back to the barn and saw soldiers setting fire to the tents. Setting: tlie Tents Afire. “ Some of the soldiers carried torches which looked like brooms on fire,” said the witness. “ Others carried cans which I supposed contained oil. They went about seting the tents on fire. ; and shooting at,every person they saw. I One woman tried to get under a fence ami a bullet went through her apron. The next day we learned of the women 1 and children' who had been smothered, ■ in the cellar, and I helped to identify some of them. Then we went to Trim- . Both women said that the union paid their expenses in the tent colony and . had done sd ever since, g! When Mr. Greene resumed , the wit¬ ness stand he yra s asked by Mr. Walsh if a conflict of interest was nqt .likely to develop among the interlocking Di- rectors of the various Rockefeller i I boards. He replied that the fields of education, social betterment and public I health included practically all of the Rockefeller philanthropies, that it was ; desirable to have men experienced in all these fields, and that there waa little likelihood of trouble. J “Now, as to these interlocking Di¬ rectors, or perhaps I should call them 1 something else? ” suggested Mr. Walsh. $ “ You might call them overlapping, oi ; overworked,” said Mr. Green. “Yes, Or you might call them over¬ paid,” interjected Commissioner Ballard, i Asked if the Rockefeller Foundation with its great resources might not be able to do something against public interest through its influence, with churches and educational institutions It had endowed, the witness said it would be possible to do great harm, but that It surely would be stopped. “ If the matter were of a very serious character,” Mr. Greene added, the charter might be annuled, and if less grave, it could be- amended. While the possibility of harm is there, I do not think that there is any actual probabil¬ ity of harm. Public opinion is very ex¬ acting, and it would be sure to act if anv very serious harm was threatened. Mr. Greene was asked what would happen if the Foundation should under¬ take to control law-making, bodies. “ I think the Foundation would lose its existence very quickly if there was any such shocking state of. affairs at that,” he replied. i Mr. Walsh asked if the Foundation, any help to the strike region in Colora¬ do, Mr. Greene said the problem there was hn economic one, and not one of charity, and that the board thought it had better be left to local' agencies. He was asked what restrictions lie thought best for the foundation and in reply advocated only such safeguards as were absolutely necessary. They should not be such, he thought, as to make a rich man man feel that it would give him too much trouble to give his money away. The witness said that Mr. Rockefeller- and Starr J. Murphy were the only members of the Rockefeller Foundation who are Directors of the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. He said the Founda¬ tion had $l, the Rockefeller, Car- | negie, and Sage Foundations. He redd' j. his answer from a prepared statement, and asserted that in his opinion such foundations were, in the domain of | philanthropy, what the trusts were in the field of industry. | Foundations Evolved from Trusts. | “ The movement of philanthropic con¬ solidation,” said/Mr. Hillquit, “ bears a I striking-' resemblance to the movement of industrial consolidation at the end | of the last century, and just as the first 1 great. American industrial combinations were the Oil Trust and the Steel Trust: so .the first of the gigantic philan¬ thropic trusts were the Rockefeller Foundation and the Carriegie Corpora¬ tion; the one so thoroughly saturated with oil and the other so firmly founded on. steel.” Mr. Hillquit said the parallelism was not accidental, that the experience gained by the capitalists in their indus¬ trial pursuits was naturally transferred by them to other domains of activity, and methods of organization, economy, and efficiency were, found to he equally applicable to all. No branch of the ac¬ tivities of the large foundation, said Mr. Hillquit,-was concerned with , the im¬ provement of the general conditions of existence and standard of life of the American worker. Another striking feature of the large modern* philan- 1 thropistSj he said. Was that they showed ' a decided concern in the welfare of for¬ eign nations and a .corresponding indif- i l'ereuce to the needs of their own count | trymen. I “ While , the Belgian relief ships were 1 loaded with wheat, corn, and other food¬ stuffs;” said Mr. Hillquit, “ tens of thousands of American workers, thfeir wives, and children were going hungry. Many of the men in the lines have prob¬ ably at some, time been working in one or the other of the numerous industries in which Mr. Rockefeller has invested, have probably helped to augment his | great fortune. They were not consid¬ ered by the Rockefeller Foundation,” HILLQUIT SEES MENACE ; IN BI€ FOUNDATIONS Says They Seek Now to Con¬ trol Education Even. - ■■ -« \ U . Mooris Hillquit, the Socialist leader, vyas .recalled to the witness stand when the hearings of the 'Federal Relations <|fmmission Were continued this morn¬ ing’ in the assembly chamber of the Metropolitan Life building. | Mr. Hillquit saw danger in the Car¬ negie pension system and. thought it. would exert a baneful and insidious influence over college professors. He charged that the great industrial cor¬ porations have robbed the people of thfeir economic independence, estab¬ lishing an industrial feudalism, and vyere engaged. now in a “bold assault” on the intellectual independence of this country. iJSlven the attempt to foster insect RESEARCH BUREAU ASSAILED, UPHELD -AM Not Catspaw for Rockefeller, Dr. Cleveland Asserts, but Dr. Allen Disagrees. 41 QUOTES MRS. E. H. HARRIMAN Ex-Director Says Oil Man’s Of¬ fer Made Her Realize ‘Grasp Money Has on Country.’ HIS PROJECTS CRITICISED Reforming of Tammany and Im¬ porting of Iceland Fish Cited—in¬ dustrial Hearings Here End. j hilling birds offered a target for the I j Socialist, Who declared: “The domes- j i iic birds have been” discriminated < against. Native humans have suffered' f in ■ fa vor of the stricken Belgians.” | The large foundations, such as the [ Rockefeller, “'age and Carnegie bene- ■! factions, are mistakenly designated as philanthropies, Hi 1 lq nit alleged, brand¬ ing them as supplements of large busi¬ ness. The investigation now under! #y by the Rockefeller Foundation i to: study the caus.es of industrial un¬ rest arid try to remove them was || c&Iled by Hillquit “one of the most I arrogant challenges ever issued by ah individual against the Government and t|i© people.” He accused Rockefeller ! of "pitting.' his hundred millions aghinst the rhodest Government ap- j, prbpfiations.” N : The $100,000,000 of the Rockefeller j Foundation can . accomplish : 'anything I | -^good or evil, according to Hillquit, i ahfcl the wielding, of this tremendous j talk is intrusted to. a few—in fact, to one man in the- final analysis, i The witness, fixed! $100,000 as the maximum amount any person could eabn by his own industry. The Bureau of Municipal Research was attacked by Dr. William' H. Allen, one¬ time Director of the institution, and de¬ fended by its present chief. Dr. Fred¬ erick A. Cleveland, at yesterday’s ses¬ sion of the United States:, Commission on Industrial Relations, in the Metropolitan Building, The commission' will hold its future sessions, in , Western cities, except one either in New York City or Washington to give those witnesses who have been subpoenaed but have not testified an op¬ portunity to answer the questions sub¬ mitted to them. Among the number is- Seth Low. Dr. Cleveland was the first witness. He had written a letter to the commis¬ sion stating that Dr. Allen had injected Into the proceedings of the commission matters which reflected on the personal integrity and character of himself and his associates in the Bureau' of Municr- ipal Research and asked to be allowed t© testify in his own behalf. Why Dr. Allen Quit. In his attack on the bureau Dr. Allen flatly accused the Directors of submit¬ ting to Rockefeller influence, and said that John D. Rockefeller, Jr., had laid down certain: conditions which the bu-. reau had to accept or forfeit Rockefeller, donations. He said he severed his con- had been bought up for $20,000, and were, simply acting as a catspaw for John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Reflection of Director. “ Certainly that would be a reflection oxi you if such were the case,” remarked the Chairman. Dr. Cleveland told of Dr, Allen’s con-’ nectlon with the bureau. He said that during the last three years of Dr. Al¬ len’s work with ft his methods had given offense to the Trustees, that he had been asked to resign, and that many Di¬ rectors of the bureau resigned because of his attitude. “• The only pledges that have ever been made with any conditions whatever at¬ tached by Mr. Rockefeller have been ob¬ tained by Dr. Allen,” said the'witness, “ Dr. Allen’s views were never in har¬ mony with those of the other Directors. His attacks upon noted Directors were resented by all the Directors. A corisid- ’ Crable part of Dr. Allen]s time has been given to trying to raise an endowment of $10,000,000 for the bureau. We have' letters he wrote to various prominent men in this connection.” “ Do you consider that reflects upon the integrity of Dr. Allen?” “I hold that Dr. Allen’s investigation is being conducted mot wholly in¬ genuously. Then he comes out as a missionary and this commission has em- ] ployed him as an agent. He is not un- j biased or unprejudiced, and. this corti- j mission is not: apt to get the truth. As I understand it, a person .can be put in the position where he is limited and the Whole truth does not come out. The •other side’. is not heard.” As an instance of objectionable meth¬ ods, Dr; Cleveland said that Dr. Allen had given V 1 assignment to one of. the bureau’s investigators, to see if “ Tam-’ many Hall could not be’-feorganized and made a veritable bureaux of municipal research,” and that, on one occasion, Dr. Allen wanted to find out, “ if • it would not be profitable’ to bring fish from Iceland.” Quotes Publicity Rhyme. To exemplify . Dr. Allen’s method , of furthering the publicity of the bureau, the witness quoted this verse that the ex-Director had sent out: The cat’s in the dumps, She’s smothered with mumps, And nothing is reads’ worth while. Her brain it is fogged. «Her nose it is clogged, And she’s wearing an adenoid smile. Before Di\ Allen testified, Robert W. Hebbei’d,. who for sixteen years had been Secretary of the.. State Board of Charities and, for four years Commis¬ sioner Of'Charities in New York City,' took the stand for a few minutes. Re¬ told how Jerome D. Greene, Secretary of the Rockefeller' Foundation, had ob¬ jected when a Director of the- American Federation of ,Sex. Hygiene to* the u^e of the union label on the stationery of the federation. When the other Direct¬ ors said that to? use the label might nection with the bureau when he found ^ngthen the organization with labor that R. Fulton Cutting and others were! pe °P le ’ Mr ’ Gree " e h f d consented to its i uoa In omr nnimnc xv rv n A f.', vx n/v tut if h lininnq determined to accept Mr. Rockefeller’s j viewpoint. ! Mr. Rockefeller, Dr. Allen said, of¬ fered $10,000 a year for five years and help in raising a. total of $100,000 a year if the bureau would stop- its out-of-town work and its postal card bulletins, di¬ vorce the training -. school founded by Mrs.. E. PL Hrirrhnan from the bureau, not only in organization but physically, and stop its New York school work. Dr. Abraham Flexner, Assistant Sec¬ retary of the General Education Board, sent a letter to the coriimission declining to answer certain queries addressed to him. in a questionnaire Submitted by the commission dealing with educational matters. Tie contended that Dr. Allen had a motive in framing them, and he would not lend himself to it. Untermyer Offer's Evidence. SamueL Untermyer , also .sent a long- letter to tlxe commission submitting facts : and figures compiled from an 1 official source, in answer to the testimony of Jacob H. Schiff and J. P. Morgan, and in support of his own statement before the commission that the potential and eventual control of the majority of the , great railroad systems of this country “ is under the domination of two great banking houses in the City of New York and their allies and associates.” ‘ ‘ I understand,'’ ’ said Dr. Cleveland as soon as he had taken the stand, “ that Mr. Allen has been appointed a special agent to nxalte inquiry into the Foundations and their influence, and that the form of the questions used in the examination of witnesses is tanta¬ mount to an implication that the Bu¬ reau of iVJtmipipal Research was subsi¬ dized by the Rockefeller Foundation and had, changed, its policy because of a gift of $20,000, and that Mr. Allen had resigned from the bureau because of the Rockefeller infhien.ee.” v - “ What is it that, has been injected, into the proceedings of this commission which you think reflects upon your in-! tegrity ? ” asked Chairman Walsh. > The witness said he would have to consult the records to get the exact questions, -but that they seemed to in- I dicate that the officials of the'..bureau use in any correspondence with unions. “ Did Mr. Greene give any reason for his objection? ” asked Mr. Walsh. “ He said it was undemocratic,” re¬ plied the witness. “The funds of the organization,’’ said Mr. He brie rd, “ are gone. It abso¬ lutely under the control of Mr. Rock¬ efeller’s men, and the board has its hat out to Mr. Rockefeller.” Dr. Allen took the stand and told of Mr. Rockefeller's offer , of $10,000 a year for five years, which, he said,, was to be increased later to $20,000 a. year if the Bureau of Municipal Research would abandon part of its work. The witness said that R. Fulton Cutting, in telling of the offer, said: ” They are most amazing people, most amazing. If it weren’t for "the money I wouldn’t have sat in the room, and listened to them.” Mrs. Harrinian’s Comment. Dr. Allen said he had sent tlxe prin- cipal Rockefeller conditions in writing to each trustee, ajxd that Mrs. E. H. Harriman had sent for him and with the letter in her hand said: “ Mr. Allen, I am going to keep this letter as long as T live. Nothing- has ever made me realize as does this w-lfat a grasp money!has on this Country. Who is this man and what has he ever done, /to justify his telling the Bur.eau of Mu¬ nicipal Research what we. may or, may not do? What has 1 he over done foi’ New York that makes him the. i.iroper judge of our work? And what is his paltry $10,000 toward bur programme?” The witness, said Mrs. Harriman told him not' to recognize the Rockefeller offer. On another occasion, he had a discussion with Mr. Cutting regarding the Rockefeller proposals, the witness asserted, and when Mr. Cutting told him he hoped he Would head the < out-of- town work he (Dr. Allen) replied: “T told him that never again, as long as I lived, would, I, if I knew it, take money from a man -who would go back on.a movement at the height of its suc¬ cess. When he .pleaded that Mr. Rocke¬ feller's .' Standard' Oil influence would force a distinguished arid venerable philanthropist to give money to a’ cause lie did not want to. help, I told him that our kind of work could not be-done with that kind of money.” The witness said that at a meeting of the board bn May 13, a month after the Rockefeller proposals ‘weie made, the ,members, spent most of their time trying to show why the proposals should, be accepted. Mr. Cutting, ho said, pleaded the board’s inability to raise funds, and Prof. E. R. Seligman of Co¬ lumbia University said: “ Gentlemen this, i^ a very simple 42 proposition. The Rockefellers have de¬ termined to eliminate the bureau and Allen from the Maxwell-Churchill school fight.” The witness, it was inferred, meant the contest between Dr. W. II. Max- we i I ’rr,P lty Superintendent of Schools, and Thomas W. Churchill, President of the Board of Education. Warning: to Trustee*. “I told the trustees,” Dr. Allen tinned, “ that the acceptance- of these conditions or the withdrawal at Mr. .Rockefeller’s; instance from even field of public education would make me feel that my • personab reputation was tarnished, that the reputation of every man who -had- been associated with us was tarnished, that the world would never believe one of us and would not believe in the integrity of public' officers -who"-had gone orit from oufi* group, or with whom we had been in¬ timately asspciated, and that such an act would seriously injure every bureau of municipal research in the country.” At another point Dr. Allen made this statement: “In April, 1914, the Bureau of Mu¬ nicipal Research, with ‘ its- Training- School for Public Seryllce, with ideals and courage and reputation not yet Rockefellerized, was exerting a greater influence with its few thousands a year than Mr. Rockefeller with his $150,000,- 000 devoted to education and philan¬ thropy. Vassaldom has taken the place or leadership, and the New York Bureau of Municipal Research, in spite of its creditable record for constructive, cour¬ ageous, fearless promotion of public! knowledge of public business, 'has dot" come the chief apologist for Mr. Rocke¬ feller’s-method of bringing the bureau itself into line,” ‘ The charge that the Bureau was going into the educational field is false, so far as New York is concerned, and it is only of New York that Mr. Cutting testified. The ; only strictly pfedagogiea! matter that ever went out, from t he Bureau had to do with a study, •supei vised by me at toe i eaueM of' Principal Mar.del of Public School No. 188. ! For this ‘study hay f-.colleague.l Dr. [jSj/ei eland, : cfauncd full credit. ' All these issues are false issues which it is a pity to talk about. The real issue is politics, school' politics, city politics, foundation politics.” How to Control Foundations. Dr. Allen put; forward some pugges-J tiomi as to how large Foundations] i should be controlled. He thought it$ would; be wise to- limit the charters of such institutions to twenty years, 'With right of renewal by the same process as originally granted ;> thata foundation should be prohibited', from making investigations of colleges and agencies except such as had sought aid of The foundation, and that there be greater publicity, with strong safe¬ guards agai-n St misleading publicity. Another recommendation was this: “ That n'i>'foundation ifo^chartered for thetpurphse and with the power of giving away money to any organization of indi¬ viduals or to any college or civic or ' charitable agency; that only agencies he chartered which will direct the spending of money given away and assume fe^ sponsibility for the efficiency, and saTety of the results, and that all. national charters include provisions , for public examination of records, subject to rea¬ sonable restriction, such as citizens’ in¬ spection of Governmental records.’’ , Dr. Allen ended his testimony with the 1 suggestion that ,„the present commission start an inquiry into Andrew Carnegie/s Peace Fund, find out what it had done to prevent the present war, and inquire 'how its funds have been spent. After the commission adjourned sub¬ ject to call, Mr. Walsh said that the next hearing would be held in Chicago about the middle of March, when the condition of labor in the railroad industries would be taken up. Following this Will be hear¬ ings at’ Houghton, Mich., to consider metalliferous -mining. At the end of March at Atlanta, Ga., the textile- in¬ dustry will be taken up. About May 1, at Washington, there will be held in¬ quiries into labor disturbances, violence in strikes and lockouts, the drift of wo¬ men to industry, the effect of remedial legislation on interstate affairs', com¬ petition . in manufacturing,, industries, child labor, and minimum wage laws. A session may be held in Boston on May 15 for the consideration of Eastern tex¬ tile industries, department, stores, ab¬ sentee ownership, and .other subjects. Eater there will be a session in'Pitts¬ burgh, where the steel industry will be considered. , Hankins Control of Hoads. Mr. Untermycr, in his letter to the Chairman, said his . assertion that the majority, : of the railways ■: of the coun¬ try were controlled by two great banking houses—Kuhn, 'Locb & Co. and J. P. Morgan—was not based on surmise, ^opinion, or suspicion, but I was founded on provable facts and was supported, among other things, by 1 the official findings of a Congressional 'Committee and by the oral and docu¬ mentary evidence furnished by the representatives of the'se banking houses and others. “ The conclusion that there\is> such control,” wrote .Mr. Fntermyer, “was not intended to and does riot involve, ,an attack upon, or criticism of the mem¬ bers 'iff these,; banking houses. It is-the j’; fault of our Governmental system and I it is, due to the absence• of proper regu- ; hitive laws, such - as exist Jn\ other " ■countries.- 1 ft? is riot necessary - here to discuss the; extent, if any, to which the . influence of those gentlemen" is $ ! responsible for the absence of such laws and : for the grave ‘ abuses,; that have;! grown out of this defective system. “ The,observations made by me were entirely impersonal, and I have yet‘to learn of any attempt to refute,, the facts, ' unless the: very- sweeping unsupported, and inconsequential, statement of Mr. Schiff of Kuh i Locb & Co., to the ef¬ fect! that it was, .all ‘.sheer nonsense,’ may -be looked upon ' as . rising to: the dignity of an argument or refutation of the facts presented, i take the oppor¬ tunity in this connection of expressing my high regard for the character arid public spirit of Mr.. Schiff-.and for his exceptional judgment on ' subjects in which he is not obessed by selfrin- rterest; but the situation' affects too closely the people of the .country and is too far-reaching in its results to be disposed, of by the mere ipse dixit of ripe of the interested parties, however- eminent and, well intentioried.” Hits at Mr. Morgan. Regarding the denial made, by Mr. Morgan, Mr. Untermyer said: “ The fact'that-Mr. Morgan has ‘ never noticed ’ that his firm and that of Kuhn, Eoeb & Co. together dominate a major¬ ity of the 'great systems (I did not say of all the railroads of the country) is neither persuasive nor-surprising if he knows as much or as. little about such, conditions he he professes to know about the - corporations of which he /is a Di¬ rector.”. ' ‘ ‘ 1 ‘ * ’ ; Mr. Untermyer- said that, in his opinion, the remedy for the increasing banking domination lay in more effect¬ ive public control, in the reform of the methods of selecting Directors, a better/ form of representation; for stockholders; in paying Directors adequately,for their services, and in holding them to a high degree of responsibility. He suggested the enactment of a national. corporation law under which all interstate corpora¬ tions would be required to incorporate with certain safeguards for stockholders, including the right to minority repre¬ sentation and the-abolition of proxy vot¬ ing; a separate law for the reorganiza¬ tion of insolvent corporations, similar to the British and German laws, and a smaller number of Directors, with , 1 greater concentration of responsibility. Mr. Untermyer also suggested that no | securities be issuable, except with the ; approval of the Interstate Commerce i Commission; that the funds of interstate railroad corporations be deposited only in incorporated ba'nks, and not with private bankers, and that .the, system of fiscal agents be abolished and the se¬ curities of corporations be sold under proper safeguards by public offerings-, or by a form of competitive bidding, to be prescribed by the Commerce Com- i mission. “ With the inauguration of these re¬ forms,” wrote Mr. Untermyer, I be¬ lieve that the development of our rail¬ roads will proceed with better satisfac¬ tion to the public than under Govern¬ ment ownership, and that banking con¬ trol will be reduced to a minimum. GIVING AWAY $50,000 UAILY. How Carnegie Started on $7>5°°i Made Millions and Spends Them. In testifying before'the United States; Commission on Industrial Relations, 011 Friday, Andrew Carnegie laid stress on the tact that he had spent in philanth¬ ropy in the way of foundations, pen¬ sions,' hero funds and other gifts $24,- 657,309. The ironmaster did not specify in detail the sums that made np this; huge total. - He . went ^ at considerable! length into certain donation's and told how the mottey was being used, but on some of his most important gifts he did not touch at all, and Chairman Walsh of the commission did not insist on a complete statement. From the time Mr. Carnegie started giving money away, it is estimated he has parted with about $20,000,000 an¬ nually, or at the rate/ of about $o0,000 a day. Probably Mr.' Carnegie himself does not know how much he lias de¬ pleted his fortune by. A year ago it was estimated roughly at $300,000,000, <1 but by his own admission on Friday b this had crept up nearly $2o,000,009 more. In 1912 the x amount of the steel man’s donations was put at $208,33y,000, made up. as follows: Hero funds .:.$12,250,000 Foundation for ' Advancement of _ Teaching . Institute at Washington. 22,000,000 Colleges in United States and aCn- ad a . 20,000,000 Colleges in England. 0,800,000 Trust for the • universities of Scot- land . 10,000,000 Dumferline Trust .. 2,500,000 ^ Institute at Pittsburgh. 1; Relief fund (for steel workers)... 4,000,000 I For church organs...• 4,000,000 4. Building .for Bureau of American if Republics at Washington. 850,000 T; Building for Hague,Peace 'Tribunal 1,500,000 B Endowment for International Peace 10,000,000 . Libraries .;:. . 50,935,000 1 . Carnegie Corporation" of New York 25,000,000 I United Engineering Building New t York .:...... l.oOO.OOO Started on $7,500. The stenographic minutes of his tes- timony revealed yesterday several side lights 011 his met hod of - gathering his huge wealth and how h,e set about to " do it. At .one point he said: “We began manufacturing with a cap¬ ital of $7,500;. my share I borrowed from a .bank in Pittsburgh. When Superin¬ tendent of the Pennsylvania Railroad I had seen a wooden bridge burn, block¬ ing traffic , for eight days, and I be¬ lieved in iron bridges; the day of steel had not yet arrived. From this small beginning grew the Edgar Thompson Steel Works, Homestead Works, Du-, quesne Works, the blast furnaces and locomotive works at Allegheny, our gas wells in West Virginia, and the'great orq fields we bought from Mr. Rocke¬ feller. “It is fourteen years since I retired 1 from business, in pursuance ot ray de¬ cision to c3aso accumulation and begin distribution of surplus wealth, in which T am still engaged: In 1888 I published an article in The,-North American Re¬ view. which was afterward christened ‘ Go'spel of Wealth ' by Mr. Gladstone. He commented upon it in The, Nine¬ teenth - Century. It attracted .attention, and many answers were , sent Ito this magazine.”. “ In accord ance wi th this doctrine, my first ■ act upon retiring from business was to give $5,000,000 to the workmen : of the Carnegie Steel Company as a parting gift, $4,000,000 for pensions to the men and $1,000,000 to maintain libraries and halls I had built for them. I was greatly pleased when later the United States Steel Corporation saw fit to duplicate my gift, adding $4,000,000 more to the fund for pensions. I have just read the following report of this joint fund with grteat satisfaction: • “ ‘ The fourth annual report of the United States Steel and Carnegie Pen¬ sion Fund, made public today, shows that since Jan. 1, 1911, when the, fund was established, retired employes of the Steel Corporation have received in pensions 1,575,021.33. For the year 1914 the total disbursement from 'the pension fund amounted- to 511,967.-00, ■ which was a gain over the previous year of $89,152.76,, and.a gain ,of $230, „ 510.53 over the first year of the fund’s existence. Pensions to Mill Men. “ ‘ The ' Pittsburgh ' district' leads ’ in the amount of money paid out to the aged and infirm , former employes- of the various subsidiary .companies., , To .re¬ tired mill operatives in the Pittsburgh arid valley districts the sum of $222,656.33 was jiaid during the year, and to this may be added the sum paid to the coke : workers in the fields adjacent to Pitts¬ burgh, which amounted to 59,995.66, making the total for the mills and mines in the district $288,651.09. .... “‘Pensioners in Cleveland and its vicinity received, approximately $50,000. In the Chicago district the amount dis¬ tributed to former mill workers was $80,157.86. In New) England retired em¬ ployes of the Worcester, Mass., plants received $39,855.56. ■ “ ‘ There are now 2,521 beneficiaries of the fund. During the year 612 pension¬ ers were added and 183 died. The aver¬ age pensions of the cases added were $20.40 a month’, the’aVefage hge of the pensioners being 03.33 years, and the average term of*the aervlee**28.-76 years. Under the rules of the fund not less than $12 nor mor.e,than $100 .a month is paid.’ “ The Hero Fund, which I was priv¬ ileged to found, - hds* dlVaVs' interested hie most deeply, perhaps because the idea came to . mA* through personal °x- nerienee. Mr. Taylor, who was former¬ ly Superintend,eijt, Qf. Q pgaj .mine near Pittsburgh,. heard that an accident had occurred and immediately drove to the mine, called' f6U Vdltirfteehs' to descend witli him to the rescue of those below. A number promptly responded and many were saved, but Mr. Taylor, the volunteer hero, lost his life. Here was the true hero of civilization who sa'-c and serve their fellows. The hero of barbarism wound and slay theirs. “ I could not rest until 1 had founded hero funds with a total capital of $U,- 790,000. The report of the annual meet¬ ings held at Pittsburgh on Jan. 20 shows awards given to forty heroes or then- wives and families,-with a total of Elm awards sine© the fund began operations. Every case is most carefully investi¬ gated. We require absolute certainty and proof given by witnesses . We* find the Mbydrs and leading, citizens o>. all communities most anxious to aid us,to obtain such proof.” Proud of the Institute. Mr. Carnegie dwelt with pride, on what the Carnegie Institute of Pittsburgh 'had accomplished',and described; ho.w tl.* students there had earned .in their spare, time a total of $201,589.02. After inviting (he members of the commission to attend the next annual meeting of: the institute at Pittsburgh, the ironmaster gave this evidence of how the young men there are trained: “ Some were at first apprehensive that our workmen would not favor the Tech¬ nology schools, which teach young men advanced modes of wbrkmapship. These fears, however, -have proved ground¬ less. The men are sending their sons to the institute and rejoicing that they are to be' advanced and rendered capable of higher scientific service.. This SjteP in advance is endorsed by the union s and let them be credited therefor. .Another proof that labor is fast supplanting prejudice! I predict that many of these pupils are to rise to eminence and be a, source of happiness and pride , to their P The^uatter of pensions is close to Mr. Carnegie’s heart, ,and he told m these words how the scheme was working out: “ There is another department I had not supposed it would be necessary to mention, but consideration has led me to believe that it is much better to make no exception whatever. > “ After retiring from business I,soon found that the widows of friends who passed away weresorely troubled how best to seeure the safety of funds left .to them. I volunteered to accept the money of one widow, giving her my note for the amount and agreeing to pay 6 per cent, a year. The relief she felt was so surprising that-1 continued doing this as other dear friends passed away, until the number of depositors has now reached 148, with a total ofJ£8,137,394.20 in deposits. I do not know o fany serv¬ ice to widows which brings such 'relief. It relieves the widow of doubt about the security of the fund upon which she is able to live in coihfort.' Of course, the deposits and security are regularly ex¬ amined by a representative: of-the Styte ^Department of Banking. Six per cent, is a higher rate than banks would pay, but I feel quite justified in being lib¬ eral.” Summing up his benefactions, Mr. Car¬ negie added: - . “ The complete: statement up to the close 'of last year shows' that the total of our Foundations and gifts amount to $324,657,539. The work still goes brave¬ ly on, thanks to the wise management of the able and willing Trustees,, and also of the employe^, Who often assure me "that it is labor in which they de¬ light,. I am indeed a most fortunate man, and thank'-myself in nothing,- else ;• so happy as in a soul remembering mV dear friends, to whom I owe so much.” Mr'. Carnegie was asked by Chairman ■Walsh, if ho ever had observed that in granting mqney .to fin educational, insti¬ tution, an, individual, or an institute might' alter the beneficiary’s’ avowed prinoiples-yOT previous methods: of pro¬ cedure m order to secure other gilts, and the witness., with much elation, told iidw men, sometimes band together for ; harm and, then frequently defeat their own purposes. He said: , 1 Of course, with more money you get into some fix,you would riot otlier- ! wise get; you get better instructors, ; I perhaps, in certain lines, and I will tell [you, Nli. Chairman,, one rule that I think! I you might use here,-whenever a body of j I men bind themselves together to do any- ! thing mean, low,, and disreputable or unjust—fhr instance, take New York here, just Vs an illustration. You .know j we have a bad reputation for getting; up arrangements - for depressing brie stock mud boosting another, and they go into engagements that way, and you can imagine a lot of irresponsible men and bad men may -be joined together and say. ‘ Now. let us do' this with that: stock, or let us put i.t up to this.’ Why Law-lireakers Fall Out. j “ Now the reason that it is so seldom j successfulr is. this: You cannot -get 'a body of men—such men as we are talk¬ ing- about—to 'organize and agree to do anything that would be injurious or to break the. laws, or anything, -of .that sort, because the bad man will "say to himself, ‘ All these, men are .engaged with me in a precarious operation just now, and would' not like to expose it; but they'are like myself. They may be taking care of themselves.' Now I will hedge on them.’ And it is a rule, if you follow it through life, wherever men bind themselves to perforin anything , wrong" and mean' and disgraceful, -or to ! gamble in stocks, which is, about: the ; most deleterious sort of gambling,; be¬ cause it is sp often done. Wherever they are;'-joined . that, way, two or three ; of thern are pretty: nearly sure to get ahead of the others that they suspect, I arid they hedge 'themselves, and more pools have been broken up by men who have got an advantage of their fellows. ; They ar© cheating each other. That is ( my observation, in their case. But when y.ou get a lot of ,able, good, men. capable of making .their fellows’ f conditions bc.ttei', of elevating the world and standing for all that is refined and pure and noble, you can always: depend upon, such men. And it would be as great: a miracle that there should be a bad man in that line as that there i should be a Judas Iscariot: among the • Apostles.”. PROTESTS TO WALSH ON ALLEN’S CHARGES F. A. Cleveland Demands Bu¬ reau of Municipal Research Receive a Chance to Reply. i thority to ransack private offices for 1 material to support his preconceived | conclusions. You have put him on the t j stand in the afternoon of the last day ! of your hearing's in’ New York, thus giving no opportunity to answer public¬ ly direct.statements which are false and misleading. “ Therefore. I ask that this letter be read into your record as a protest j against such use of the inquisitorial powers of the Federal Government, and 1 1 also ask on behalf of the bureau that CALLS ACCUSATIONS FALSE ■AM 1 Magazine Editor, Who Wanted to Testify Before Industrial Rela¬ tions Commission, Complains. F. A. Cleveland, e> Director of the Bureau of Municipal Research, yester¬ day wrote to Frank P. Walsh, Chair¬ man of the Federal Commission on In¬ dustrial Relations, protesting against the manner in which the testimony of Dr. William H. Allen that the WALSH’S WISDOM. One could be forgiven a feeling of hot indignation at some of the talk, yester¬ day, by Frank P. Walsh, chairman of the United States Commission on In¬ dustrial Relations. Here is a man about to preside over a quasi-judicial inquiry, beginning in this city to-day. In ad¬ vance he lashes wildly at those who are to be investigated. He condemns them before they are heard. If a real judge were to do this, he would be ashamed to go home and look his wife in the face. But it is impossible to be long angry with Chairman Walsh. As you go on watching wisdom bubble from him, you are moved rather to wondering laughter. Where lias this wise man been hidden all these years? We are told merely that, before taking office, he was a St. Louis lawyer. But how was it that large hotels were not built near him, in order to accommodate people hastening from all parts of the land to sit daily at his feet and drink in wisdom? Why did not the St. Louis railroads increase their revenues by running excursion trains loaded with passengers ‘carrying social “problems” to Frank P. Walsh for solu¬ tion? For, evidently, nothing is beyond his powers. He comes to New York and goes over to the East Side Forum, and in a single hour's speech he disposes of question after question that has for years tried the brain and heart of phi¬ lanthropists and reformers and states¬ men. But they never had thajadvantage of hearing Walsh. Familiar as his gar¬ ter, he unlooses one Gordian knot after another. Unemployment? Bless you, he can tell you In five minutes what to do about that. Banks, corporations, taxation, tariffs? He has a neat little formula for each. While you wait, he reaches into the capacious pigeon-holes of his mind, and pulls it out, all docketed and labelled. It’s a thousand pitiestbat the Germans never heard of Chairman Walsh. They would have surely made bun their Chief of Staff, and then the story of the war would have been dif¬ ferent. ( It is difficult to study Mr. Walsh in uetai}, as the grand and general view of tim so fascinates the mind. He show¬ ered his pearls of wisdom so profusely about him that it is hard to pick up cne and say that it is more beautiful than the rest. For ourselves, we great¬ ly like his tariff pearl; it is so large, so shiny, so obviously made of paste, j Among his “definite suggestions,” Chair¬ man Walsh puts first his plan to take “tariff benefits” away from “any em¬ ployer who overworks his men or beats down wages or exploits women *>r chil¬ dren.” So easy, so simple! All that Mr. Walsh would have to do would be to draft a tariff act, necessarily general in terms, that would yet be so minute that it would exactly fit the case of John Anderson, of Liberty Corners, who com¬ pelled one of his blacksmiths to nail on a tariff-protected horseshoe after six o'clock. Then we could promptly take away John’s tariff benefits. So with the banks. They ought not to be run to earn dividends, but to render the largest amount possible of “social service”; and the finest form of social service, accord¬ ing to Mr. Walsh’s way of thinking, would be to take away the dividends of all banks and of all corporations that were not conducted as he believes they ought to be. But there is really no end to the things he would do, if given half a chance. He passes lightly from closed door to closed door, to unlock each one of which he has a skeleton key all ready. Again we ask, where has this miracle of knowledge, this fountain of social wis¬ dom, been so long concealed from the admiring gaze of Americans? Somehow, W 4 fear that he will not long be with us. We don’t mean that he will run dry. It is of the nature of Walshes to flow on forever. But his little day of publicity will ^oon draw to a close. We have seen his like before. There was Terence Powderly, for example. It was his function, for a few brief months, as it seems now to be that of Chairman Walsh, to rebuke and in¬ struct the nation. Congressmen hung upon his words, and asked him, with the greatest deference, what particular changes he would make in the United States Constitution. And Powderly, too, like Walsh, was very strong on the duty of “making work.” No honest work¬ ingman, he used to maintain, would keep an empty bottle in the house. He would smash it, so as to give employ- The Industrial Relations Commission is gone and our foundations—with or without Capitals—have not been per¬ ceptibly shaken. A great many people must still he in a fog as; to just what the Foundations have to do with indus¬ trial relations. But let that pass. The Italians say that it ddes not matter if a good story is not true, if it is to the point. Put it the other way and say it does not matter if an investigation committee goes in for something that has no connection with its legitimate subject of inquiry, provided it finds out something that is true. With regard to the Foundations, the Industrial Com¬ mission has found out nothing. What it tried to discover was a menace to democratic institutions and the social welfare in the great agencies set up by multi-millionaires, . Theoretically, such a suspicion might , be justified. Any vast accumulation of wealth is a power, and if Mr. Rockefel¬ ler or Mr. Carnegie were so inclined, their Foundations might be employed 1 to impose their wills, their views, or their i: fads upon a nation, openly or in subtle ways. In theory, . Mr. Rockefeller’s gifts to education might be employed to shape the course of educational de¬ velopment in accordance with his views. In theory, his gifts to mu¬ nicipal research might be an influ¬ ence for anti-democratic developments in. municipal government. In theory, Mr. Carnegie's pensions to profes¬ sors might corrupt university teach¬ ing, and his gift's to libraries might be used to force upon the people the wrong books for them to read. It might even. : be that the large charities of these two men would do harm by dulling the pub- \ lie conscience towards the methods by which such great fortunes were amass¬ ed. At their worst, the Foundations are a menace to democracy; at their best they are a sop to the public conscience —such is the theory. But what are the facts? What in¬ stance of intimidation or corruption has brought to a head this fear of the Foundations? None. The question is not one of defending these institutions against unfounded suspicion. There is a broader issue involved: the habit of casting ourselves with fury upon ah “is¬ sue,” not only in the absence of facts, but in total contradiction of facts. For what is the truth with regard to the corrupting influence of the Rockefeller and Carnegie gifts upon social condi¬ tions? The University of Chicago has absorbed millions of the Rockefeller j money and grown increasingly radical on the rich diet. The corrupting influ- j ±4 ence of Mr. Carnegie’s pensions to col¬ lege professors is evidenced by the ex¬ traordinary increase in radical thought in all the colleges. A dozen years ago the college professor and the college students were the Tories of these Unit¬ ed States. To-day, under the insidious demoralization of Oil and Steel money, the colleges have organized Socialist fraternities and Socialist study clubs, and men like Albert Bushnell Hart have been bribed by Messrs. Rockefeller and Carnegie into supporting Mr. Roosevelt and the Bull Moose platform. Are these the menacing developments which forced the Industrial Commission to dig into the Foundations? Some con¬ sciousness there was in the Commission that no fearful indictment could be framed against the Foundations on the record of the past. But there was the future. The Commission tried hard to find out the dreadful things that had not happened but were bound to hap- |f pen. They tried hard to get at the ; ! “facts,” and the nearest they came to the facts was in the testimony of Mr. J Hillquit, as representative of responsi¬ ble Socialist opinion. Suppose, said Mr. Hillquit, that the issue of Government ownership of railroads came up in 1916, or maybe in 1920, and suppose that the Rockefeller Foundation were opposed to Government ownership of railways, can you imagine what one hundred million dollars would do to swingtbe election the way Mr. Rockefeller wanted it to go? Hardly a fact, this menace based on two suppositions; but assume that Govern - 1 ment ownership is up in 1916, and that ; Mr. Rockefeller is opposed to the idea' end sets his Foundation to work. What : then? If every precedent and every in¬ dication of the public temper to-day count for anything, the intervention of iVlr. Rockefeller against Government ownership of railways would insure the triumph of Government ownership; and if Mr. Rockefeller was in favor of Gov¬ ernment ownership, Government owner¬ ship would be beaten. This state of the public mind is a fact which we com¬ mend to the attention of Mr. Hillquit and the Industrial Commission. The national conscience shows no signs of going to sleep- under the ano¬ dynes of Messrs. Rockefeller and Carnegie. The Industrial Commission does not really believe that the Rocke¬ feller money for the Belgians, for can¬ cer research, for hookworm, for colleges, has won popular opinion to the old methods of Big-Business. Is the nation¬ wide outburst of horror and resentment over Colorado an instance in point? Col¬ orado is one of the real facts which the Industrial Commission might have pon - 1 dered over when it set out to battle against the menace of the Foundations. la¬ ment to a glass-blower and a brother. Similarly, Chairman Walsh would “make places for those now out* of work” by reducing the hours and in¬ creasing the wages of those who are at work. Columbus’s egg was nothing to this. Ridiculous as is the figure which Mr. Walsh cut in his remarks yesterday, which were reckless and half-baked, in- addition to being grossly Improper for one in his position, we must not be as rash as he is. It does not seem as if anything good could come from him and his inquiry, yet something may. One good thing would be a thorough discrediting of his entire method of investigation. It seems to be thought that, by asking fifty-seven questions of A and thirty-nine questions of Z, you are certain to elicit profound truths. All that you bring out, however, may be only ignorance and prejudice, to match your own and further confuse you. In fact, this whole Commission on Industrial Relations seems to be akin to the inquiries of which we used to hear so much Into the relations be¬ tween religion and science. One ex¬ haustive report concluded, fey- the solemn affirmation that such relations undoubt¬ edly existed! And we are sure that Chairman Walsh would make oath that there are such things as Industrial Re¬ lations.: A VOLUME 22 SCRAPBOOK, 1915 PAGES 44-49 BLANK, NOT IMAGED j ., EDUCATION FUND SPENT $39,715,720 Rockefeller Board Issues the First Report of Its Twelve Years of Activity. IT HAS $34,000,000 LEFT Administrators, Though Authorized to Use Principal, Have Decided to Keep It In Reserve. Some of the most Important benefits achieved in national educational work through the $92,000*000 endowment given by John D. Rockefeller have been made public. That the expectations of the donor for the development of his great project have been met in a Large meas¬ ure is indicated by this preliminary statement issued yesterday: The General Education Board, found¬ ed by John D. Rockefeller, to promote education within the United States, “Without distinction of race, sex, or creed,” and how equipped with funds for that purpose amounting to nearly $34,000,000, will, on Jan. 1, issue the first comprehensive report Covering its | twelve years’ activity. The first installment of that report, now made public, sets forth the man¬ ner in which the funds of the board have been used. The administration of these funds is in the hands Of a board Consisting of j Frederick T. Gates, Chairman; Walter J H. Rage., American Ambassador in London; J. D. Rockefeller, Jr., Albert J Shaw, editor Review of Reviews; j Wallace Butterick, Starr J. Murphy, Edwin A. Alderman, President Uni¬ versity of Virginia; Hollis B. Frissell, | Harry Pratt Judson, President ‘Uni¬ versity of Chicago; Charles W. j Eliot, Emeritus President Harvard ; University; Andrew Carnegie, Edgar j L. Marstott, Wickliffe Rose, Jerome D. Greene, Anson Phelps Stokes, Abra- ; ham Flexner, and George E. Vincent, President University of Minnesota. Up to June 30, 1914, the Board had appropriated directly $15,894,353. Chit Of funds held by the Board “ to be applied to such specific objects within the coroporate purpose of the Board ’ I as Mr, Rockefeller or Mr. John D. I I Rockefeller, Jr., might direct, the |j following gifts have been made: f (a) To the University o£ Chi- c&to .. .$13,554,348.90 (b) To- the Rockefeller Insti¬ tution for Medical Re¬ search . 10,267,022,10 (g) TO the General Education i Board ................. 1.239,830.38 $25,661,190.47 Thus the total benefactions already : distributed to outside.- institutions through the medium of the General : .^Education Board have amounted to / $39.715,720. ’ W According to the report, the first permanent endowment, received June , .30, 1905, and amounting to $10,000,000, WaS expressly designed to furnish an income “ to be distributed to, or used for the benefit of, such institutions of learning, at Such times, in such amounts, for such pufpbses, and under such conditions, or employed in such other Ways as the Board may deem best adapted to promote a compre¬ hensive system Cf higher education in the United states.” The limitations on the use of this gift Were subse- mSTw, » further f lft «t $32,000,000 was made, “ one-third to be added to the permanent endowment Cf the board; two-thirds to be applied to SUCh specific Objects within the cor¬ porate purpose of the board,’ as Mr, Rockefeller Or Mr. John D. Rockefel¬ ler, Jr., might direct, “ the remainder i not SO designated, at the death Of the survivor, to bp added to. the permanent endowment of the board.” This addi“ tion to endowment was accompanied by no restriction whatsoever as to the specific educational objects to which its income was to be devoted. On July 7, 1909, Mr. Rockefeller In¬ creased his benefactions by the gift of an additional $10,000,000. at the same time authorizing and empowering the board, in its discretion, to distribute its entire principal- or any part there¬ of, and releasing the board from the obligation to hold his gifts in perpet- j uity. Besides the sums above Speci¬ fied^ as contributed by Mr. Rockefeller, the board received, April 17, 1905, the sum of $200,000 from Miss Ariria T. Jeanes for the ‘‘assistance of the negro rural schools in the South.” At the present time the board s re¬ sources are valued At $33,939,156, Of which $30,918,063 is general endow¬ ment and $3,021,093 reserve fund. The ; gross income from these funds for the ■ year 1913-14 was $2,417,079.62. In ad¬ dition the Auna T. Jeanes Fund of $200,000 yielded a gross income of $9,231.64. The hoard’s appropriations up to Tune 30, 1914, have been as follows: Colleges and universities.$10,582,5 Medical schools ....... Negro colleges and schools... Miscellaneous schools... PrcfegMrg ’of secondary edu* catlofff... Southern Education Board.... Rural school agents (both races) Farm demonstration work- South (Including boys' and girls’ club?) ..... Farrh demonstration Work— Maine"' and Mew Hampshire (Including boys’ and girls’ clubs) ...... Rural organization work...... Educational conferences...... Administrative expenses...... 2,670,874.11 699,781,13 ■ 159,091.02 1 242,861.09 97,126.28 164,443.18 80,876.45 l 37,166.66 i 18,108.28 ’ Total.... .$15,894,355.86 Although the men composing the Bodrd I of Administrators Were authorised five years ago by the removal of all re¬ strictions to dispose of both the principal and interest in the fund in their dis¬ cretion, they have decided that the best service for future educational develop¬ ment may be accomplished by continu¬ ing the life of the benefaction and they have accordingly retained nearly two- thirds of the fund, including a I EDUCATION BOARD EXPLAINS ITS GIFTS! Rockefeller Foundation Praises Religious Denominations for Loyalty to Colleges. THEY MUST BE RECOGNIZED Only by Cb-operatlng with Denomi¬ national Organizations Can Higher Education Be Aided. The second part of the report of the General Education Board, founded by John D. Rockefeller, was made public yesterday. -In the first, installment, pub¬ lished on last Thursday, it was ' said that the principal of the fund amounted to $52,000,000. and that of this amount about $34,000,000 was still in hand. The Second, installment of the report says that these three questions were consid¬ ered by the board when malting gifts to colleges and universities: First—A preference for centres of wealth and population as the pivots of the system. Spcbnd—Systematic and helpful co-oper¬ ation with religious denominations, and. Third—Concentration of gifts in the form of endowment. The report goes on to give a resumS of the work done And the conditions ex¬ isting at the time the board was found¬ ed, and says: Of the hundreds of college and uni¬ versities struggling for existence at the time the General Education Board was established, thirty-four privately founded had endowments valued: at $500,000 or more. Of these thirty-four, twenty-three were situated in cities and growing towns. The eleven situated less favorably had $13,000,000 in endowments and less than 6,000 students. The 400 that had IASS than $500,000 endowment each were nearly all situ¬ ated in rural communities, where they were waging a sad struggle fob means and students. Moved, therefore, by the foregoing facts and considerations, the General Education Board lias by preference se¬ lected for assistance institutions situ¬ ated .within a field where students could be easily procured; where the fostering care of a prosperous com¬ munity could be counted on; where an appetite for knowledge and culture could be readily stimulated and grati¬ fied. At the same time it has not j passed by older institutions otherwise located. A second. factor of immense impor¬ tance, particularly in the early days of development, is the relationship of the college, to the religious denomina¬ tion. It has already been pointed out , that religious bodies have very un¬ wisely overmultiplied colleges, thus scattering students and resources. - But, on the other hand, they are en¬ titled to the credit. of having founded and maintained most of our really substantial private foundations. Their loyalty to the college has, as a rule, hot ceased, even where the denomina¬ tional relationship no longer holds. Yale, founded and long controlled by Congregationalists, is still their pride, even though in scope and ideal it ,has little in common with the small college established to provide an edu¬ cated ministry for the denomination. Princeton owes as much to Presby¬ terianism—Brown to the Baptists. Of the newer colleges and univer¬ sities out of which the future Har- vards, Yales, Princetons, arid Browns, must come, most of them are of de¬ nominational origin and most are still the objects of denominational An effort to develop a system of higher education in the United States requires therefore constant and sym¬ pathetic co-operation with denomina-, tional organizations. Only thus can cerairi Promising institutions be aided, Only thus can a movement towald concentration of denominational ef¬ fort be promoted. It was tentatively estimated that an efficient college Should enjoy, an in¬ come from endowment, covering from ! 40 to 60 per cent, of its annual ex- i pendituffe. Moreover, the'expense of conducting colleges and universities is bound to increase with the Cost of living, the competition for trained teachers, the enlargement of the boundaries of knowledge and the in¬ crease in Specialization. In order that they may obtain and retain competent teachers; the col¬ leges must be financially strong arid secure. Support by fees and contribu¬ tions to meet current expense is too precarious to sustain the elaborate organization of the modern institu- : tion of learning. I It was decided therefore that the gifts of the General Education Board should be made to endowment, and on such terms as were calculated to i draw further funds to and arouse . other interests in the selected insti¬ tutions. There was the further con¬ sideration that buildings, grourids, apparatus, and scholarships can all be more readily obtained through gifts than can the endowment neces¬ sary to meet the expenditure they entail. The report sets forth that $34,000,000 of the fund has been retained because the administrators have decided that the best interests of educational Insti¬ ll 10 ,?.? will be served by continuing the life of the benefaction. OUTSIDE GIFTS DUE TO EDUCATION BOARD Conditional Aid Policy Bringing $40,000,000 Additional to American Colleges. \ a -— HOW DONATIONS HANDICAP Board Finds Gifts Without Increase of Endowment Embarrass Institutions. In the third installment of its report on the results of twelve years’ work the General Education Board, founded by John D. Rockefeller, deals with “ Condi¬ tional Giving,” and - explains why the board makes it a policy to give only a part of the money required by an Insti¬ tution. The report says; Up to June 1, 1914, the General Edu¬ cation Board made contributions to 103 colleges and universities; to nine¬ teen of these it has made a second ap¬ propriation. The sums pledged by the board amount to $10,582,591.80; the in¬ stitutions assisted have themselves un¬ dertaken to raise additional sums ag¬ gregating almost $40,000,000. Through the activities of the Gen¬ eral Education Board, therefore, $50,- 384,823 will shortly have been added to college and university resources. Nor does this sum represent the full outcome * of the board’s work in this direction, for it does not include be¬ quests written into the wills of those whose interest in a particular institu¬ tion was first aroused or much deep¬ ened by campaigns undertaken to in¬ crease endowment. A recent report received from insti¬ tutions which have been assisted dis- ' closes the fact that the total increase in the endowment of colleges to which the board has made pledges, determined as from the dates of the several pledges, is already $20,760,292. The total cost of new buildings for the j same period is $6,302,953. • Conditional Giving. It will have been remarked that the gifts of the General Education Board to colleges and universities are invari¬ ably part only of the sum which the . I institutions in question have under- i taken to raise. It should, however, ! be stated that this does riot mean ! that the General Education Board requires an institution to raise any particular sum or to raise money in any particular way. Quite the con¬ trary is the case. Not the board, but the institution, takes the initiative, by announcing to the board Its intention to undertake the raising of a certain sum, toward which a contribution is requested from the General Education Board. In giving, the hoard is, therefore, in exactly the same position as every other contributor; all alike Subscribe definite sums toward a specified- total; all are, therefore, conditional givers. The General Education Board appears to stand, out from the others, not because its offer is any more con¬ ditional, but simply because it is usually the largest single contributor. Modest unconditioned gifts might indeed prove a hindrance rather than a help. A new building presented without an increase of endowment sufficient to carry the additional ex¬ pense incurred in running it; an en¬ dowed professorship unaccompanied by increased general funds; a new campus without further unencumbered funds with which to develop and care far it—these and other unconditioned benefactions tend to embarrass, not to assist, a university. Conditional giving means, therefore, that when an institution undertakes : to raise money for 'expansion, It has calculated what it needs in order, not only to make, but to support , a pro- gressive move. To this end every giver increases the leverage by means of which the required total may be col- i lected; every giver accepts a certain— not infrequently a large—resonsibility for the future of-the institution. ! Gifts from Many Sources. It may not be amiss to add in this I connection that in founding the Uni¬ versity of Chicago Mr. Rockefeller aeted upon the principle just eluci¬ dated. In making his final gift of 1 $10,000,000 to this Institution (Dec. 13, 1910,) he stated his conviction that “ it is far better that the university be supported arid enlarged by the gifts of many than by those of a single donor. I have accordingly sought to assist you in 'enlisting the interest and se¬ curing the contributions of many others.” It happens, of course, very often that the General Education Board is unable to see its way clear to make contributions that have been requested. It is believed that adverse decisions of this kind have as a rule been satis¬ factorily explained to the applicants, so that, even if the reasons may not be concurred in, the disinterested desire of the board tq do justice has not been questioned. . , Decisions rif this kind may be based on one or more of several reasons; the board may have already contributed more than a fair share to the section represented; the iristitution may occu¬ py a more or less unpromising situa¬ tion; it may be in too close proximity to a, stronger institution; it may be without backing; it may be one of several denominational institutions which ought to be merged rather than separately developed. Some of these schools may at the moment be performing a useful func¬ tion; yet unless they appear to be necessary factors in a well-organ¬ ized and well-distributed permanent system of higher education, the Gen¬ eral Education Board is compelled to pass them by. The total amount at t^e, disposition of the administrators of the board was were chosen as worthy of endowment. $ 52 , 000 , 000 , and of this $34,000,000 yet re- This second section also showed the mains to be used in carrying on the Conditions which an institution must work. In the first section of the report neet to be worthy of participating in it was shown that the appropriations up die fund of the General Education to June 30 amounted to $lo,894,3oo.89. /Board and paid a tribute to denctmt- The second section explained the way ./national colleges and universities in which the colleges and universities FINDS COLLEOES LAX ROCKEFELLER GIFTS TO COLLEGES LISTED General Education Board Issues a Report of Appropriations H Has Made ^ x0( $34,000,000 STILL ON STAND Western States. The subscriptions to colleges in Western {States amounted to $8,967,781 toward a total of $19,374,522, as follows: Subscribed Supplemen- OHIO—$760,000. byG. E. B. talgum Marietta .$60,000 Oberlin . 125,000 Ohio Wesleyan........ 125,000 •Wooster ... 275,000 Western College for Women .. 50.000 Western Reserve, $240,000 375,000 375,000 825,000 INDIANA—$230,160. De Pauw .. If fflarlham . f Franklin .. < Wabash . t •Two appropriations made. MICHIGAN—$16,106. Kalamazoo . 1 ILLINOIS—$800,000. Disbursements Total $10,582,591, for Which Entire Sum to be Raised Is $50,384,323. The General Education Board, which administers funds established by John £>. Rockefeller, gave out yesterday the fourth installment of its annual report. This installment contains the details of ; the board’s gifts to colleges. The list Includes not only the amounts the board subscribed, but those sums toward Which it contributed a part. The appropriations by geographical sections were as follows: Approprla- Entire tions Sum to of Board, he Raised. To Southern States.... $3,052,625 $12,199,677 TO Western States- 3,967,781 19,374,522 $0 East. & Mid. States. 3,662,185 18,810,124 Totals .$10,582,591 $50,384,323 Southern States. The subscriptions to colleges in the (Southern States amounted to $3,052,62a toward a total of $12,199,677, as follows: Supple- Subscribed mental by G. E. B. Sum. 5»>°00. ?mooo 50,000 60,000 75,000 150,000 50,000 105,000 VIRGINIA—$490,000. Emory and Henry.... •Randolph-Macon .... t and.-Macon Woman’s ichmond . irginia . •Washington & Lee... _ .. NORTH CAROLINA—$379,416. Davidson . I£,000 Meredith .. 59,000 Salem Academy....... 75,000 Trinity .. 150,000 Wake Forest..... 29,416 SOUTH CAROLINA—$154,176. Converse .. 66,000 •Furman .. 60.600 , *Wofford . 64,176 GEORGIA—$232,28$. „ A _ ter 8 ^::::::::::: S Wesleyan Female..... 100,000 ALABAMA—$21,700. Howard -........• * 21,700 MISSISSIPPI-$150,000. Millsaps ............. ,25.660 Mississippi ...... •. 125,000 ARKANSAS—$175,000. •Hendrix - 175,000 TENNESSEE—$625,000. George Peabody... ? 2 60, Maryville . Kn nnn : Union ....• Chattanooga ... Vanderbilt ..... KENTUCKY—$125,000. Georgetown. 25,000 Transylvania ......... 50,000 Williamsburg ........ 60,000 TEXAS—$400,000. ■ Baylor ................ 200,000 Southern Methodist... 200,000 FLORIDA—$50,000. _ _ John B. Stetson. 50,000 $3,052,625 •Two appropriations made. •Knox ...__ Hake Forest . Northwestern . WISCONSIN—$290,000. •Beloit .*. •Lawrence ... MINNESOTA—$850,000. St. Thomas .. Carleton .............. Hamlins ............. •Maealester .. IOWA-$596,515. •Coe .. Cornell .. Drake .... •Grlnnell .. Morningslde .. COLORADO—$200,000. •Colorado ... Denver .. KANSAS—$275,000. Ottawa . •Washburn . Baker . MISSOURI—$525,000. •Drury . Washington .. William Jewell . Central 150,000 50,000 100,000 150,-000 90,000 50,000 75,000 100,000 60,000 125,000 146,515 100,000 100,000 200,000 50,000 25,000 125,000 '125,000 125,000 200,000 125,000 .. 75,000 SOUTH DAKOTA—$150,000. Dakota Wesleyan .;.. 50,000 Huron . 100,000 WASHINGTON—$125,000. Whitman .. 125,000 CALIFORNIA—$150,000. Pomona .............. 150,000 400,000 600,000 850,000 900,000 650,000 810,000 200,000 225,000 600,000 160,000 675,000 586,000 300,000 800,000 700,000 150,000 75,000 475,000 875,000 525,000 800,000 y : coo 225,000 750,000 830,000 General Education Board in¬ sists They Shall Safeguard Gifts in Trust. NEW SYSTEMS INSTALLED 50,000 25,000 150,000 150,000 200,000 180,000 175,000 860,000 450,000 445,000 225,000 100,000 225,000 850,000 88,248 | 100,000 250,000 151,704 250,000 97,000 200,000 525,000 $760,000 150,000 75.00C 350,000 150,000 75,000 150,000 170,000 Total.. $3,967,781 $15,406,741 •Two appropriations made. Eastern and Middle States. Subscriptions to colleges in Eastern 1 p,nd Middle States amounted to $3,562,- 185 toward a total of $18,810,124, as fol¬ lows: Subscribed Supple’ental by G. E. B. Sum. MAINE—$50,000. Bowdoin . $50,000 VERMONT’—$150,000. Middlebury . 50,000 Vermont . 100,000 MASSACHUSETTS—$750,000. Amherst ... 75,000 Harvard . 62,500 Mount Holyake....... 100,000 •Smith . 212,500 Williams . 100,000 Wellesley . 200,000 CONNECTICUT—$400,000. Wesleyan . 100,000 Yale .....:. 800,000 NEW YORK—$955,000. Hamilton .. 60,000 Elmira ... 1 100,000 St. Lawrence ......... 50,000 Wells _ 100,000 •Union ... ■ 175,000 Rochester . 230,000 Chamber of Commerce, N. Y. . 50,000 Barnard $200,000 825,000 62,500 400,000*. 850, OOC y 500,00( 800,00( As a Result? Educational Institu¬ tions, Have Been Taught Business Methods. 1,700,000 150,000 200,000 150,000 400,000 625,000 970,000 - PENNSYLVANIA—$757,741. •Allegheny . Bryn Mawr.. Bucknell ... Franklin and Marshall. Lafayette ..... —- Pennsylvania College.. Swart'rmore .......... Washington & Jefferson NEW JERSEY—$349,444. Princeton . 99,444 Elevens Institute-- 2o0,000 RHODE ISLAND—$150,000. Brown . 100,000 Wbmen's College.. 50,000 150,000 250,000 35,000 50,000 47,741 50,000 75.000 100,000 550,000 380,000 125,000 308,512 381,928 150,000 425,000 400,000 Total ..$3,562,185 $15,247,939 •Two appropriations made. The board had a total fund of $52,- 000 000 to administer and there is still $34,000,000 of this available for carry¬ ing on its work. The third installment of the report dealt with the board s in $40,000,000 American universities. In the first sec- tion, the appropriations up to June were shown to be $15,894,355.89, and in the second, the way in which the col¬ leges and universities were chosen as •worthy of endowment was explained. The fifth installment of the annual re¬ port of - the General Education Board dealing; with the result^ of its activities.; upon college finance was mad® public -yesterday. In’part it says: “ As: a business organization, aliye to ■the dangers which'attend large enter¬ prises, the board has taken cafe tp aidy institutions in safeguarding their prop¬ erty. For. this: reason, the business management' of colleges applying for contributions has! been carefully scruti¬ nized With / a view to the suggesting of such improvements as might foe ad- ! visablel* ’ ' ~ i | “ Originally, many,- of the .smaller col¬ leges particularly had no organized bookkeeping staff. One college ww discovered which had no record 0 bonds given for endowment excepiyflke envelope in which they were jplac$|, In ■ another instance gifts had been re¬ ceived through a series of years and no record of the amounts or the pur¬ poses for which the gifts were made had been kept. -The 1 'only thing kppton by . the college : when the Inquiry! was made was'that at that time they had suoh and such securities; “ Colleges have found it necessary to examine files of years’ accumulation, fO search records of church ..organizations, to appeal to the'memory of * the oldest inhabitant,’ ’.and to. resort;: to ev,$ry known method of getting Information, and then have'.''been obliged to repon, that the statements submitted were billy approximately correct. Old Method® Changed. “ A0 this is being changed. Book¬ keepers are being installed; a thorough¬ going system of bookkeeping estab¬ lished; a complete system of vouchers' adopted; an annual auditing of accounts required by the trustees, and the issuing of financial reports to boards of trus¬ tees and to others interested. “ All colleges with which the board has co-operated, have already been in possession of trust funds. But It has been discovered that not infrequently such trust funds have been, depleted. “The board of trustees• of a college, being hard pressed. to meet current ex penges, has resorted to the fiction. of ‘borrowing* from permanent funds to tide the ’college:.over a .time of. -stress, occasionally a ‘ nbte ”, is given,/ to ■ cover the s ‘ loan.’ Tlje" relief .may 1 not 1 come as anticipated -and the ‘ borrowed ’ money frecmently has not been returned to the trust fund. “ WhenqVer. .this state, of 1 affairs tofee ■ foeeh found the General 'Education. Board, has insisted upon the restoration of suet i "trust funds before making payments on „ its pledge, ft has .also’'stipulated- that the 1 > money contributed b‘y the General Edo- catiOh Bohrd ‘ shall be invested and pro- 2 served inviolably /for the endowment * t of the Institution. fl. “ The board has -received many, as-, * surances from colleges that in the’future, trust funds will be more strictly regard¬ ed, and that under no circumstances will encroachment upon permanent funds to meet current expenses be allowed. The board has thus been made to believe that, apart from rendering direct aid to colleges, it has been of. service-in throwing safeguards about fppasj .con¬ tributed by others. . College® Saved front Ruin* “ The gifts of the General Education Board have been the means of arousing new effort. In one instance, the only .endowed college in a Southern State, • struggling against . almost insuperable obstacles,’ was-.saved from destruction and has now $300,000 safely invested; ir> another—this one of the ' strongest’ in ¬ stitutions of the land—the board’s ,ap’/ propriation was the initial tifelp in ob¬ taining. land, buildings, and endowment, for a pet of adequate university lab-’ | oratories. , ■ “ In repeated., instances,- debts have 1 been paid, 'salaries increased, new ..do- 1 jpartments/ created,: and mbr© teachers; supplied in consequence of the increased resources toward which the'- board’s gifts, served as an aimost indispensable, leverage. / ' \ ’ , “ The Institution’s usefulness grrows with its financial strength. The can¬ vass for funds itself attracts students by making it ■ better known; increased resources mean larger and more varied 7 facilities, through which, - of course, more students are more "efficiently trained. The-rapid increase in unh-fer- sity attendance has forced the raising of .larger: sums; the raising of these sums has reacted on and increased at¬ tendance, “ If colleges and universities are to toe thus popularly ■ fostered . and sus¬ tained, the work of the General Educa¬ tion Board may be fairly said to have made these institutions the more secure . to the extent that it has increased the number of those who have a stake in them.” _ ..J.51 SOUTH AIDS IS WORK OFRDDCATIOS BOARD People Pay Half the Cost ©I Farm Demonstration in First Decade^, c\\ ■ ’ - ' RURAL POVERTY EXTREME Inquiry Showed That BetterSchoeSs Would Follow More Pro¬ ductive Farms! A summary of the efforts mad© %tj promote ’ education'" in ±he Southern States;, is contained in ah %stallment o t the forthcoming 1 report of'the General Education, Board, made public yester¬ day. The import in part says;- ; . “ kfu Rockefeller’s first gift to. the •General- Education .Board . : was designed to support- an inquiry into the education¬ al needs of the Southern people. To; the officers and members of the board tv ho visited- the South for personal study tf, soon became clear that • • * adequate developments could not take place until the available resources of the people wefe greatly enlarged. ';! : '■ ' “. These conditions were not primarily due to any lack of Interest in popular education: . They were mainly the ’ re¬ sult of rural poverty. While the aver- age annual earning of individuals,- en¬ gaged In ..’agriculture -to the State of Iowa were upward of $1,000, the -aver¬ age earnings of those similarly engaged 'i^j*$ome of the Southern States" Were'as' low aS $150. ; ■ “ The great bulk Of the people . Of the ’Southern -•■ States’ Was simply not ■’earn-. Ing enough to provide proper homes and to support good school^ : Whatever’/ the other- deficiencies the prime need was m’ohey', ; ’ - ' ■: * 1 “It was obvious that the General Ed¬ ucation Board could render no substan¬ tial educational service to the South un¬ til the farmers of the South could pro¬ vide themselves with larger incomes. “ But the Southern farmer suffered from lack of scientific knowledge of ag¬ riculture and training in soil cultivation, knowledge available, indeed., though never effectually distributed to the peo¬ ple. “ it was therefore deliberately decided to undertake the agricultural education not . of the future farmer, but of the present farmer, on the theory that, if he could, be' substantially helped, he would gladly support better schools in more .and 1 more’' liberal, fashion. Th& extension pf the /so-called Co-operative Farm- Demonstration movement resulted from: this investigation “ The programme above sketched cOUld •• not, however; be carried out/by the Federal Government, because, ’at that time, it was held, that Government funds could be spent only for infcer-St'ate pur¬ poses. Following the success of the experimental demonstration at Terrell, Texas, Congress had made special ap~ tpre farms were established by Dr, Seaman A. Knapp throughout the in¬ fested region; but. as the appropriation was based on the theory that the weevil was an inter-State menace; and, only as such, a legitimate object of Federal concern, the money was hot available for strictly , educational uses. “The co-operation of the General Education Board made the general edu¬ cational application of. the idea possible. While still retaining his connection with the Department of. Agriculture, Dr. Knapp read ly accepted an offer made by the board to finance the educational extension of farm ..demonstrations, ^est- tering 1 into the -seneme , with/all ./the vigor and enthusiasm of youth. “ The United States 1 ‘ Department. 6f Agriculture became a party to the nec- essarv arrangements. An agreement, signed ' April 20, 1.906, by. the Secretary of Agriculture, and the Secretary of the General Education Board, provided that ‘ The farmers’ .co-operative work, Ip which the General Education Board is to become Interested, shall be entirely distinct in territory, and finance from that carried on solely by the Depart- ment of Agriculture and that the United States Department 0if, Agricul¬ ture shall have ..supervision of .the work an# shall appoint all special agents.for this extended territory In. the same .way that they are:-now appointed, ; and .the 'said agents shall be under .control pf said department in every respect aa) fully as any : of the agents, of, the de- Pc ‘ ess imminent. Peace will work wonders!” Mr. Carnegie tomorrow’ will attend the installation of the Earl of Elgin as Chancellor of Aberdeen University. He will also be a guest at a dinner given to the university dignitaries by the general body of graduates. This, it is understood, will be Mr. Carnegie’s farewell' visit to Aberdeen. He will return to Skibo Castle by automobile. PRESIDENT CHURCHILL'S NIGHTMARE. i~ To President Churchill of the Board of Educa¬ tion we owe the original and startling discovery ; that the Carnegie Foundation Is a treasonable con¬ spiracy, of which the purpose is to buy the con¬ trol of colleges, corrupt the education of Ameri¬ can youth, destroy the foundations of religion and bind the Nation in perpetual slavery to insti¬ tutions that have been openly bribed. To most persons the situation will not cause so grave alarm as it does to President Churchill. The character of the Carnegie Foundation has [ been fairly well understood. It was founded by Mr. Carnegie in 1905 and incorporated by act of Congress. It is endowed with $15,000,000, to pro¬ vide retiring allowances for teachers and officers of colleges, universities and technical schools. It pays out large sums annually in pensions to pro¬ fessors and officers of institutions selected for | their educational standing. On their face these | facts do not seem to bring it within the criminal class of corporations, or even to make of it the, national menace into which it is transformed ia* the heated imagination of the President of the ; Board of Education. It would be more to the point if President : Churchill would devote himself to promoting the! efficiency of the -public schools of the .city qf New, York, with which he is officially concerned. They offer him plenty of occupation for >h, is 'energies, j .without making random 'excursions in to the realm j of higher education, where he has h^d even less j; 'experience than with .the public school’s. | Speaking at the commencement exer¬ cises of Manhattan College in Carnegie! Hall last night, Thomas W. Churchill., President of the Board of Education. I made an attack on the Carnegie Founda- . tion for the Advancement of Teaching. His chief charges against the organiza-1 tion 'were that it attempted to stand¬ ardize college 4 education and thus to crush individuality, strived for abstract scholarship rather than humanized ideals of service, and, above all, attacked de¬ nominational control of the colleges, which the speaker characterized as brib¬ ing the colleges to abandon religion. Mr. Churchill opened his address with a collection of the opinions of many eminent men, both within and without the colleges, who thought that higher education of the present, day was defi¬ cient in essential qualities. James J. Hill,, R. T. Crane, Thomas' A. Edison, Henry CleWs, and Charles M. Schwab were quoted as-men who had no confi¬ dence in the college graduates of the present day. “And this education which, we de¬ plore,” said Mr. Churchill, “ has been brought about by men immured in col¬ leges, who would not let' in the ideas of the outside world.” Reform of our higher institutions of, learning, he went on, would' have to be begun and carried through by laymen who were not fossilized by academic in¬ fluence. “ We want no national Board of Edu¬ cation to prescribe methods,” Mr Churchill said. “ The people insist o; doing its own business, not delegatin it to a committee for standardizatioi and such a committee now exists. About ten years ago Andrew Carnegie used some millions of dollars to establish a fund for the pensioning of worn-out college professors',. but it soon became apparent that what had been haled as a provision for the ; old age of profes- i| sors was in reality a corporation to buy the contral of such colleges as were ji willing to sell their birthright and carry ' on college teaching and management, acco rdin g to the p atte rn prescribed by It. “ The * Foundation has deliberately and conspicuously made a mark of the religious colleges—particularly of the small institutions which in jtheir. own field carried on a great Samaritan work with limited equipment bat a splendid spirit, and one after another many re¬ ligious colleges have been seduced by greaV wealth to give up the indepen¬ dence that should be found in a college of nowhere else, and to forsake the faith of their founders. “ If education is not free it will soph be formalized and dead, and I deem it my duty to enter a protest against the standardization which the foundation attempts.to secure and against its inter¬ ference with religious education. It makes one boil with shame to think that in this generation and in this republic any body of then would so brazenly employ the tremendous power of great wealth as to permit- it, to buy the abah- , donment of religion. ■ “ Lucky Iron Master." ' ! “ It Is no surprise that these men hold up abstract ideals of Culture rather than practical ideals of public service. By , reason of the imperfection of our labor , la.wjajaAnjekSkJris.'ft.jaiaster sk-w* 1 ’ * ; "■ - •Work of thousands of artisans the cream of their wages until he amasses through them a fortune that makes that of Croesus look like a little pile. And to these men who work before the furnaces this heap of wealth stands in the way, blocking the entrance of their own sons into institutions which the public had expected to throw the light of education into wider and wider strata of society. For the Carnegie Foundation by its re¬ quirements excludes from the colleges which it aids with money such youths as do not .meet the requirements which the foundation sees 'fit to establish.’ A copy of Mr. Churchill's speech, which was given out i n advance, Con¬ tained expressions very much stronger than those which he actually used in his address. Even so, his remarks were received with vigorous applause, and considerable laughter was stirred up when he said, “ The standardization and uniformity on which the foundation harps might well be the • watchword of, the commander of an army or of the Warden of Sing Sing.” The Right Rev. Mgr. Michael J. La-- velle, Vicar General, who presided at the exercises, followed Mr. Churchill’s speech With ope which, while milder in tone, agreed with it in sentiment. J 54 u A- A V CARNEGIE FOUNDATION MEETING Members of Board Attend Annual Gathering* Here—Report of Treas¬ urer on College Pensions. The ninth, annual meeting- of the trus- j tees of the Carnegie Foundation for the! advancement. of teaching- was held to-day j at 576 Fifth •• Avenue. The twenty-four members' were all present, except Frank A. Vanderlip, president of the National City Bank, who is ill. The chairman of the board, William Peterson, principal of the McGill University, in Montreal presided. President William F. Slocum, of Colorado College, was later elected chairman. Dr. Henry S. Pritchett, president of the Foundation, and Robert A. Franks, its treasurer, presented their annual re¬ ports. The general endowment: is now $14,129,000, and its annual, income is $696,000. Of this amount;: $§34>j)0O. was used during- the year in paying,: pensions to 432 professors or widows .g|,tiMC‘ofessors, forty-four being added during- the year. This is an. increase ,of -$34,000 over. last yean Since .the establishment of the Foundation, 4-$2 proffssbrs aid . 114. wid¬ ows ,representing; thh seventy-two insti¬ tutions have received allowances total¬ ling $3,551,000. President, Arthur T. Hadley, of Yale, and President Jacob G. Sehurman, of Cornell, were reelected to membership in the executive committee which conducts the business of the. Foundation between the- annual meetings of the trustees. The first part of the Division of Edu¬ cational Inquiry's study of legal educa¬ tion, which is being-made: at-the request of the American. Bar Association, is now in press in the form of a report on the case method of instruction, by Prof. Jo¬ seph Redlich, of Vienna. Progress is also being made in; a, study of engineer¬ ing education undertaken at the request of the joint committee representing the National Engineering Societies. Work will soon be begun at the request of the Governor of Missouri, upon a study of the training of t,eaehers in that State, CARNEGIE DEFENDS HISFUND Denies Teaching Foundation Is Poor or Mismanaged. Andrew Carnegie and officials of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advance' ment of: Teaching yesterday denied the statement that the Foundation-jvas fac¬ ing bankruptcy, and that its manage¬ ment was inefficient—a charge which was made on Monday night at the din¬ ner of the Church Ciub in Pittsburgh by Monell Sayre, Secretary of the Clergy Pension Fund of the Episcopal Church. Mr. Carnegie referred inquirers into the solvency of the Foundation to its officers. Clyde Furst, Secretary, said that the Treasurer’s report for the year ended Sept. 30, 1914, which had not yet been published, showed a balance of more than a million dollars. 1 “ Mr. Sayre was connected with the Carnegie Foundation for six years, and is a very good friend of mine,” he said; “T should say that .probably he has gone too far in his; statements, on ac¬ count of his devotion tp the system' of pensions to which th* beneficiaries are contributors, such as l. exemplified by the Clergy Pension Fund." ' The probable source for further rev¬ enue for the Foundation as further rev¬ enue is needed is indicated by the fact that the President, Dr. Henry S. Pritch¬ ett, is .one of the Trustees of the Car-- negie Corporation, which has back of it almost unlimited resources. To refute th4 charges- of mismanagement and ex¬ plain,the connection between the Found¬ ation and the corporation Mr. Carnegie issued a statement which shows that the charter of the corporation provides for eight Trustees, of whom five are ex; officio, tfte -Presidents/ of the five institutions—the- Carnegie t Institute of Pittsburgh, the Carnegie /institution of ; Washington, the Carnegie, Foundation ; for the Advancement of Teaching, the : Carnegie He,ro, Fund, and the Carnegie ; Endowment for international Peace. CARNEGIE FUND BANKRUPT,SAYS CHURCHMAN Monell Sayre Asserts U. S. Steel Pension System Has Failed, Too. this very eminent board to have scien¬ tific calculations made; at least their - first report spreads no such calculations before the public. No eminent actuary is mentioned as assisting their delibera¬ tions. “Instead, their first report, in which i their pension system is described, would i make a pension expert weep, that is if he could refrain from daughter. “The insufficiency even of the 125 ad- j ditional millions of the Carnegie Cor¬ poration is simply proved. For a pen- I siion system to increase its expenditures ten times in. forty years is a very mod- i erate estimate; all pension experience [proves that. The Carnegie Foundation ! now spends $700,000 a year. Ten times that amount is $7,000,000. But $7 000 - 000 is more than the income of the $125,000,00(1 of the Carnegie Corpora- 3XISMANAGEMENT OF BOTH IS CHABOEI) i Pittsburg, Pa., April 12. —Monell j Sayre, secretary of the Church Pen- j si On Fund of the Episcopal Church, | astonished a large gathering at the dinner of the Church Club of Pitts¬ burg to-day at the Hotel Schenley by a declaration that the United States Steel Corporation in radically altering its pension system had done it to | the disadvantage of employees; and j further that the Carnegie Foundation j is unable financially to Carry out the purposes for which it was established. Mr. Sayre, criticising the United States Steel Corporation’s alteration of its pension system, charged that the greatest business corporation in j the world has been “wofully deficient” and that “no excuses avail” for j changes made in three radical par- j ticulars. He added that the changes j| indicated “a very rudimentary con-j ception of morality.” Discussing the state of the Carnegie I Foundation, designed to ease the old j age as well as to compensate ade¬ quately college professors in this country, Mr., Sayre said flatly that from the twenty-five college presi¬ dents chosen to handle the fund Mr. Carnegie had a right to expect the finest pension • system in the world, but that the eminent board had failed i to make a detailed and specific study j of their task; had relied upon general¬ izations, and had published such re¬ ports as “would make a pension ex¬ pert weep.” Clyde Furst, secretary of the Carnegie j Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, denied in New York last night | that the foundation is bankrupt cu> in | apy kind of trouble through the opera¬ tion -of its system. I Mr. Burst characterized Mr, Sayre's remarks a s - “silly and inflated ! guesses of a nice little boy whose tongue some¬ times runs away with him.” Incident¬ ally Mr. Furst admitted that since the starting of the pension fund for college professors the $10,000,000 with which it was endowed by Mr. Carnegie has proved insufficient to meet the demands upon it and that on three occasions since then a total of $3,000,000 additional has been given by Mr. Carnegie. Mr. Furst denied that the Carnegie I Corporation, started two years ago I when Mr. Carnegie appropriated $125,- j 000,000, was meant to save the pro¬ fessors’ pension fund from the financial rocks. CARNEGIE DENIES Has Had to Augment Founda¬ tion, but Accummulation Shows a Surplus. GARY DEFENDS PENSIONS Exhausted In Generation. He asserted, that the pension system founded by Mr. Carnegie could not run for a generation if it had even the vast resources of the Carnegie corporation—$125,000,000. , The parts of Mr. Sayre’s address which commanded keen attention by his audience were as follows: “Yesterday morning upon my arrival in Pittsburg the first item I read in the daily newspapers was the announce¬ ment that the United States Steel Cor¬ poration had altered in a radical manner and to the great disadvantage of its em¬ ployees its pension system. “For several years I have known that this must happen. Two years ago the | Church Pension Fund publicly criti- J cised the pension system of the Steel Corporation with great severity, but nevertheless the actual announcement came to me as a positive shock. “No excuses avail. Human longevity has not increased noticeably within the J last few years. Even the rate of in- I terest has not fallen. The fact cannot be denied that the United States Steel Corporation started a great pension system upon insufficient data, without sufficient study, lacking scientific guid¬ ance, “But it may be answered that in pensions the Steel Corporation was off its own ground; its business is to manu¬ facture steel, so- I turn to my other illustration, one peculiarly appropriate in this spot, overshadowed as we are with the gigantic piles of Mr. Carnegie’s j benefactions across the park. j “Ten years ago this week Andrew | Carnegie conceived the noble purpose of I pensioning the professors in American |: colleges.. He committed this purpose to !; the best hands he thought that he could find—the presidents of twenty-five lead¬ ing American universities, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, University of Pennsyl¬ vania, your own University of Pittsburg and the then president of Princeton, now the Chief Magistrate of the United States. - From such a galaxy of learning and future greatness, with ample re* , sources at their disposal, Mr. Carnegie had a right to expect the best pension system in the world. The result was- the Carnegie Foundation, and the Carnegie Foundation is now bankrupt. Would Make Expert Weep. "It never occurred to these heads of ' American learning to collect- the neces- j sary data; at least their first report in- ; di cates that nothing but generalizations ! were, attempted. It never occurred to ! ! Andrew Carnegie in person and Clyde i Furst, -secretary -of the Carnegie Fo-unda- | tlion, denied vigorously yesterday the Statements, of Monell Sayre, secretary I of the Episcopal Clergy Pension Fund, | that the foundation is bankrupt and its .management incompetent. Judge Gary, | obairman of the board of directors of | the United States Steel Corporation, also denied yesterday the -statement j made by Sayre that the corporation’s ■' pension -plan is a failure. . Mr. Furst, to whom Mr. Carnegie referred Inquirers, after making a gen¬ eral denial, of Mr. Sayre’s charges, made public the latest report of Treasurer Robert A. Fr-angs, showing an accumula¬ tion in excess of expenses amounting to $1,245,936.49 up to September 30, 1914. Although he denied that the founda¬ tion is baaikrupt, Mr. Furst admitted that since Mr. Carnegie started the ( foundation in 1906 with $10,000,000 toe has had to augment its funds by 13,000,000. He has promised $3,000,000 | more, Mr. Furst said, but that is not yet needed. •"Since 1905 our work Ih-as broadened greatly” Mr. Furst said. “The -maxi- ! mum pension allowance has been in¬ creased from $3,000 to $4,000, and in- I structors, widows and State universities have been made beneficiaries. “The future financial needs of the | foundation depend on the increase in professors and their salaries. This has been -about 1.0 per cent, every five years. If this continued for thirty years the j cost of retiring allowances would about double. This estimate,” probably too large, is more likely to be correct than Mr. Sayre’s estimate of a tenfold in¬ crease in -obligations.” Mr. Sayre said yesterday that per- j. 1 haps he did not mean to have the word j "bankrupt” taken literally. “Still,'’ he said, “they will ' have to have more, money iaa the beneficiaries | increase. It seems queer to me that 1 they should plan it so poorly. Then, §, too, they Intended taking in 120 col-§ leges, and they have not done it. Yes,! I -have attacked -the foundation before. Why not?” The statement. made by Sayre that the pension system of the United;.States Steel Corporation has been “woefully deficient” was declared by Judge Gary to be not justified by the facts. Mr. Sayre based his criticism chiefly on the changes that, the Steel Corpora¬ tion found it necessary to make in it® pen¬ sion system, changes that, he said, were to the disadvantage of the employees. Judge Gary s-ays that these changes were Accessary because when the system was put into operation there were no ade¬ quate data available on which to base a scientific system and that as these data were developed it was found best to raise the age of retirement .and lengthen, the required time of service, /// “These are the only, changes which h-av-f been made, in the United States Steel and Carnegie pension fund. Our efforts and the plans' upon - which we are now at work are to put our pension system upon a better basis and to give greater protection both to the men who have already been granted pensions and to those" whose service will entitle them to nunlv ..for..m-'n.sions .in. Ahr .futm-*.” FUND IS BANKRUPT NH \ Q : r ,,v5lX\cijM^ NM, CARNEGIE LIBRARY A JAIL? Su4“ AMERICAN LIBRARY ASSOCIATION BULLETIN 511 City Council Refuses Funds and Suggests “ Practical " Use. j Special io The New York Times. , AMSTERDAM, N. Y., Feb. 24,-A movement was started here today to transform the Carnegie Library Build- j ing into a city jail. City officials, it is I ! said, ate making tentative plans for the I I rearrangement of the building, j The'library was erected in 1902 by An¬ drew Carnegie, with the stipulation that the city was to provide for its main¬ tenance. The usual appropriation of $8,000 was stricken from the city budget last night,' together with other appro-I priations, in order to keep the budget within \he $200,000 limit. The proposal to turn the library into a /jail wa3 considered by the Common ! v Council. Alderman Hayflinger, who j I has been active in the recent fight, for readjustment of the city’s'finances, this afternoon expressed himself as favoring such action. ” This building would make an Ideal jail, police headquarters, a*nd police court, without much alteration,” he said. “ Inasmuch as our financial condition will not allow us to provide for main-> te.hance this year and for many years to come, and as the State authorities will force us- to close our present jail next month, ,1 think it would be wise to turn our attention to practical things. If the Trustees of the library find them¬ selves unable to carry on the associa¬ tion’s work without aid from the city, why not enter into negotiations to ob¬ tain this property lor city purposes? ” COMMITTEE ON FEDERAL AND STATE RELATIONS The chairman of the committee, Dr. Bernard C. Steiner, calls attention to the fact that a movement is again active to urge Congress to prohibit the Post Office Department from furnishing printed re¬ turn request envelopes. Librarians are requested to send a protest against this measure to the Hon. John A. Moon, chair¬ man of the House Committee on Post Of¬ fices and Post Roads. The chairman of the committee also de¬ sires to have published as a report from the committee the following article copied from the American Law Review, vol. 48, pp. 598-599, July-August, 1914: The Carnegie Libraries Have Rights Which Courts Will Protect.—-In 1909 a citizen of Perry, Oklahoma, wrote to Mr. Andrew Carnegie, soliciting from him a gift of a sum of money to the city for the j purpose of erecting a library building and establishing a free public library. In an¬ swer, Mr. Carnegie offered the sum of $10,000 with which to construct a free pub¬ lic library upon condition that the city council by resolution would bind the city to furnish a site for said building and maintain said free public library at a cost of not less than $1,000 a year. The city council by resolution accepted the dona¬ tion and agreed to comply with the terms thereof by providing a site and by levying an annual tax upon the taxable property of the city sufficient in amount to main- I tain a free public library in said building at a cost of not less than $1,000 per year. I The building was thereupon constructed in accordance with the plans and specifica¬ tions approved by the donor, and the cost thereof paid by the donor in the sum of $10,000. Thereupon a library consisting of 1,300 volumes was placed in the build¬ ing, and the building and its rooms were occupied as designed in the plans and specifications according to which it was constructed. A little later, however, the city council proceeded to take charge of the building and to establish therein the offices of the city, including the office of mayor, city clerk, police judge, chambers of the city council, and authorized the use of a portion of the building for commercial club purposes and for public conventions. On the complaint of several taxpayers of Perry the Supreme Court of Oklahoma enjoins the city from violating the trust in this manner, holding that the title to the building was not absolute in the city free of any conditions and restrictions, but that the city’s title to it is that of a trus¬ tee; and that it holds it for the benefit of the public; that a court of equity has juris¬ diction to compel the execution of the trust in compliance with the terms of the gift; and that the action of the officers of the city in attempting to divert the building or a portion thereof to the above-named uses may be enjoined at the suit of resident tax¬ payers of the city and beneficiaries of the trust. “It is fundamental that if a grant is made for a specific, limited, and defined purpose, the subject of the grant cannot be used for another purpose; and a diversion of the subject of the trust from the pur¬ poses for which the trust was created may be enjoined. “Defendants attempt to justify their taking charge of a portion of the building for city hall purposes with the contention that the library may be maintained in a part of the building, without the use of the whole of it for that purpose; but we do not understand that the fact that the cestui que trust may not be in absolute need of the benefits of the trust ever auth¬ orizes the trustee to convert the trust, or a portion thereof to his own use. For the same reason, upon receipt of the gift the municipal authorities might have said that a $5,000 building would prove fully adequate for a public library, and devoted the other $5,000 to building a separate building for a city hall. But a statement of this contention demonstrates its unsound¬ ness. By accepting the gift, the city bound itself to levy each year the sum of $1,000 with which to keep up and support the free public library. It cannot levy and collect this sum of money and expend a part thereof in keeping up the library and a part in maintaining the library as a city hall for the accommodation of its officers and of private or public organizations, such as commercial clubs, without a misappro¬ priation of the funds so levied and a viola¬ tion of the trust; and, to prevent their do¬ ing so, they may be enjoined at the suit of the taxpayers of the city and beneficiaries of the trust.” Perry Public library v. Lobsitz, 130 Pa¬ cific Reporter 919. VOLUME 22 SCRAPBOOK, 1915 PAGES 56-225 BLANK, NOT IMAGED rjJ'tiA li dfk\jjJm , /ik WZ' mm m£m