B 766,440 51K.3q25,1846 /AWff LIFA46, PRESENTED TO OF THE V NT F1ic -~ UINIVL-,K311 Y UI /IlIA i 1~1 4........................ --- -- -- --- -- -- -- --- -- -- -- --- --....... -- -- --- -- -- -- I4 e~e fl~ ~*6-,1-.1" -leAt 7k 4 I -.4 \VI I~, 4 z 114 1*. 0.11 I I - t 1;30 lk ...14 1,, 111%. '..- 'r '4,,,l \ 4 I,,, I I-1 -11%, '11`-7w — C' 1% II Iltl J - NN :, J VI%-, e l I \1 /. ll t r-, N T K AiLl w r I C p S / -A,-, 1 4-c / 4 wwwom"Mm I 't N II et-I A' h 'h e, II,.,I I I -W / t. Af/ pj] \) 77fi47 I Stalts fo;" ISr(a?/-V b h s'/tairS: I I '... 1, I f I I 1 F7; I, I I ':,7 I I I I:1, DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS IN THE NEW-YORK - STATE:,CONVENTION, W&, FOR THE I REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION. BY. S. CROSWELL AND R. SUTTON, Reporters for the Argus. * PRINTED AT THE OFFICE OF THE ALBANY ARGUS * 84* t i;:: 1 846. ENTERED according to Act of Congress, in the year 1846, by E. & S. CROSWELL, In the Clerk'k c ice of the District Court of the United States for the Northern District of New-York. INTRODUCTION. THE reorganization of a State Government, by the People in their original sovereignty, through delegates appointed for that purpose, may well be regarded as an event of the highest interest, as it is certainly of the first magnitude in its results upon the welfare and prosperity of present and future generations. It is a proud feature in the history of our institutions, that the entire structure of the government may be remodled, great and radical changes perfected, and the terms of all official incumbents terminated-calmly, with perfect order, and with the cheerful acquiescence, or the undisturbed negation, of the sovereign power; and that a revolutionary movement, marked by such important changes, assumes the form of the organic law, without commotion, and with only such agitation as may be supposed to belong to an occasion affecting the rights, the liberties, and the interests of intelligent freemen. The Convention for the revision of the Constitution of this State, which has just terminated its labors, affords an illustration, like that of 1821, of the admirable adaptation of our form of government, to the wants and condition of a free people, and ithe surest guarantee of its stability and permanence. Nor can it be regarded as indicative of a mere love of change, that at long intervals, material modifications of the structure of government, are demanded on the one hand, and conceded on the other, or that they are finally and perhaps radically resorted to. Defect is inherent in all human design and effort. Experience teaches the necessity, or the advantage, of change, as a part of the law of progress, whether in the departments of art, or science, or government. It was a new and admirable feature of the Constitution of 1821, that it provided for its own amendment. The present amended Constitution extends this principle, and provides not only the mode of intermediate amendment, but for the periodical submission of the question of entire and thorough revision. The proceedings of such a body, and the principles and opinions which governed its action, as also the views and opinions of individual members, must be regarded with general interest, as matters of information, and for purposes of record and future reference. With this view, the reports now collected and published in this form, were undertaken by the reporters for the Argus; and, With such corrections as their rapid transfer from the columns of the paper to the pages of this edition INTRODUCTIOlN. have allowed, are presented to the public. It embraces a full and minute journal of the daily proceedings of the Convention, with all the reports and propositions submitted and acted upon; and the speeches, arguments, debates and votes thereon. The final result of these deliberations is given in the amended Constitution, as prepared for publication by the Secretary of State, and which directly follows the debates and proceedings. To this is annexed a copy of the Constitution of 1821, and the subsequent amendments; and to these, a copy of the Constitution of 1777, with the amendment adopted in 1801. These will enable the reader to refer to and compare, at a glance, the results of the several Conventions for the adoption and revision of the Constitution, from the organization of the State government to the present time. To these we have annexed sundry statistical facts, and the votes on the question of " Conventimn " or " No Convention," as declared at the annual election in 1845. And the volume is rendered still more complete, by a copious Index, referring to the page for each subject, proposition and speaker. That it is free from imperfections, is not pretended. But pains have been taken, and no expense has been spared, to render it as perfect and full as the circumstances under which daily reporting in deliberative bodies in this country, will allow. Several speeches not embodied in the regular daily proceedings, will be found in the Appendix, to which the reader is referred as a valuable addition to the work. The importance and value of such a record, consists in affording a full and comprehensive view of the original articles and propositions; the modifications to which they were subjected; the form they finally assumed; the principles or grounds on which they were based; the arguments by which they were enforced, and which governed in their adoption; and the relative strength with which each article and amendment was carried, and by which analagous plans or propositions were defeated:-altogether forming an invaluable documentary and circumstantial record for S future action under the instrument, and for future reference and construction if it shall obtain the approval and shall be adopted by the people. To the general reader therefore, these contemporaneous reports will be found useful, as a valuable historical memorial, of what must be viewed now, and will be much more so regarded hereafter, as a memorable period in the annals of the state. To legislators and to jurists, and to all public men, they assume a higher degree of importance, as affording a knowledge of the spirit or quo animo of the occasion, and as a guide in deciding upon the meaning and construction of the Constitution. In this belief, this volume is submitted to the public judgment, and its authors and publishers hope, to the public favor. STATISTICAL MEMORANDA. THE question of "(Convention" or "No Convention" was submitted to the people by the legislature of 1845, and the act of that session, entitled " an act recommending a Convention to the People of this State," and at the annual election in November of that year, the aggregate vote, as officially declared, was 213,257 for a Convention, and 33,860 for No Convention:-being a majority for the former of 179,397 votes. In pursuance of this decision, the Convention assembled at the Capitol in the city of Albany, on the first day of June 1846. The delegates sedulously devoting themselves to the purpose of their convocation, remained in session until the 10th day of October-a period of 131 days. The business of the Convention was first parcelled out or distributed by a committee of seventeen delegates, to eighteen different standing committees:-besides several select committees, subsequently appointed. The Articles finally adopted, fourteen in number, and which form the Amended Constitution, were elaborately discussed,-many portions of them reconsidered and again discussed-and finally again considered and passed upon, through the report of a committee of revision, among the concluding proceedings of the Convention. All the Articles of the AmendeLl Constitution were adopted by large majorities, excepting the two Important Articles in relation to the Judiciary and the Finances. Both these were debated elaborately, and with great ability. The former, which contemplates an entire change in this feature of the government, and introduces the anomaly of an entire elective judiciary, was adopted finally by a vote of fifty-three, (53) to forty-six, (46)-or a majority of seven. The provision of the latter which was most litigated, indeed the only material feature on which there was a marked division, was that in relation to the appropriation of the surplus revenues of the canals, and whether, after providing for the certain payment of the debt, these should remain subject to the disposition of future legislatures, or be definitely appropriated to the gradual completion of the unfinished public works. The latter proposition prevailed by a vote of 63 to 50, or a majority of thirteen; and was subsequently passed upon and re-enacted by about a like division of strength. The antagonist propositions were those of Mr. HOFFMAN, as modified by Mr. LOOMIS, on the one hand, and those of Messrs. BOUCK, CHAMBERLAIN, ANGEL, AYRAVLT and STOW, on the other. The former, as originally presented, contemplated or authorized the sale of the unfinish ed works, and the appropriation of the surplus revenues, after providing for the speedy payment of the entire State debt, and for the support of government, to such objects as future legislatures should direct. The latter recognized the unfinished works as the inalienable property of the State, provided for the certain but less speedy payment of the public debt, and for the support of government, and for the specific appropriation of the surplus revenues to the completion of the unfinished public works. On this subject the proposition of Mr. WHITE, of New-York, being a modification of Mr. BoucK's and Mr. LOOMIS'S propositions, was finally adopted. The discussions were characterized in the,main, not only by ability and decorum, but by good temper, by an apparently sincere desire to attain right results, and by the absence of personal contention or party feeling and divisions. The Constitution was engrossed on parchment, under the direction of a committee consisting of Messrs. NICOLL and BAKER, by JOHN CUYLER, esq., one of the clerks in the State Department After the engrossed instrument had been finally read, adopted and signed by the several delegates. it was delivered in full Convention to the Hon. N. S. BENTON, Secretary of State, who was present, and received it from the hands of the President, to be deposited of record in his office. CONVENTION VOTE-1845. * [OFFICIAL.] STATE OF NEW-YORK, ss.-Statement of the whole number of votes given at the General Election, held in the said State, on the 4th day of November 1845, under and pursuant to the act entitled " An act recommending a Convention to the people of this State," passed May 13, 1845. No. votes for No. votes for No. votes for No. votes for Counties. "Convention." "No Convention." Counties. "Cetio" "No Conventio." Albany............ Allegany........... Broome............ Cattaraugus........ Cayuga............ Chauta uque........ Chemung.......... Chenango......... Clinton............ Columbia........... Cortland........... Delaware......... Dutchess........... Erie............... Essex.............. Franklin........... Fulton and Hamilton Genesee............ Greene............. Herkimer.......... Jefferson.......... Kings.............. Lewis.............. Livingston.......... Madison............ Monroe............ Montgomery........ New-York.......... Niagara............ Oneida............. 7,873........ 2,340........ 2,050........ 1,726........ 7,101........ 3,575........ 2,060........ 4,169....... 2,133....... 4,799....... 3,677........ 4t587........ 5,132........ 5,440........ 1,616........ 1,798........ 2,544........ 2,868........ 3,101........ 4,346........ 6,397..... 2,072........ 1,277........ 3,623...... 4,281....... 7,113........ 3,096...... 10,967........ 3,293........ 6,455........ 568 1,955 615 678 117 146 88 245 249 893 173 247 500 225 437 40 187 206 550 86 1,100 1,048 738 241 781 425 315 7,186 217 1,709 Onondaga.......... Ontario........... Orange............. Orleans............ Oswego............ Otsego............. Putnam............ Queens:............ Rensselaer......... Richmond.......... Rockland........... St. Lawrence....... Saratoga............ Schenectady........ Schoharie.......... Seneca............. Steuben............ Suffolk............. Sullivan............ Tioga.............. Tompkins.......... Ulster............ Warren............ Washington........ Wayne............. Westchester....... Wyoming.......... Yates.......... 8,743........ 5,437....... 4,681........ 3,257....... 5,495........ 3,965........ 966........ 592....... 6,492........ 194........ 243........ 5,611........ 4,418........ 1,227....... 2,754........ 2,749........ 4,636........ 906........ 1,973........ 2,077....... 4,280....... 3,572....... 934....... 4,892........ 4,748........ 1,267........ 2,770........ 2,869....... 45 104 606 105 59 926 119 974 371 405 242 328 304 431 1,240 152 253 418 339 155 400 1,103 808 193 125 1,346 307 87 Total,......... 213,257..... 33,860 We do hereby certify, that the preceding statement is correct. Given under our hands at the Secretary of State's Office in the city of Albany, the twenty-sixth day of November, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and forty-five. N. S. BENTON, Secretary of State. A. C. FLAGG, Comptroller. BENJAMIN ENOS, Treasurer LIST OF DELEGATES To the JVNew-York State Convention, held in the year 1846, to revise the Constitution of the State, arranged according to alphabetical order of the counties represented by them; with their several Places of JVativity, Iges, Profession or Occupation; and the foreign Country from which their Ancestors emigrated to this country. = Names of Members of the Convention of 1846. Horace K. Willard........ Benjamin Stanton........ Ira Harris....~.... Peter Shaver William G. Angel... Calvin T. Chamberlain.... John Hyde....... George A. S. Crooker. Alozo Hawley.......... Daniel John Sliaw * ---.... Peter Yawger........... Elisha W. Sheldon........ George W. Patterson... Riclhard P. Marvin........ William Maxwell......... John Tracy.............. Elisha B Smith.......... Lenuel Stetson.......... Ambrose L. Jordan...... George C. Clyde.......... John Miller.............. David S. Waterbury...... Isaac Burr............... Peter K. Dubois......... Charles H. Ruggles....... James Tallmadge........ Absalom Bull............. Amos Wright.......... Aaron Salisbury.......... Horatio J Stow.......... George A Simmons..... Joseph R Flanders....... John L. Hutchinson....... Samuel Richmond........ Moses Taggart........... James Powers,........... Robert Dorlon............ Michael Hoffman......... Arphaxed Loomis........ Elihu M. McNeil......... Alpheus S. Greene........ Azel W. Danforth........ Conrad Swackhamer...... Tunis G. Bergen....... Henry C. Murphy -...... Russell Parish............ William H. Spencer......* Allen Ayrault............ Federal Dana............ Benjamin F. Bruce.......1 Enoch Strong............ Harry Backus s.-....- -— \ Frederick F. Backus.... John Bowdish............n John Nellis...............1 Wm. S. Conely.......... Solomon Townsend.* r-.. George S. Mann -..... -- Henry Nicoll.......... John H. Kennedy.....*... Charles O'Conor' -..... Alexander F. Vache...... Samuel J. Tilden.........P Benjamin F. Cornell...... PLACE ( Representing what County. County. Albany...... Greene...... Albany....... Albany. *.... Albany-..**. g Montgomery Albany *-. Albany -.*-.. Allegany * * - - Newport - - - Allegany —.. Kennebeck.. Broome......Broome...... Cattaraugus.* Greene....... Cattaraugus * 'Saratoga.* * Cayuga *.. t* Antrim...... Cayuga.*.-.. Hunterdonll * Cayuga *.-! Sullivan ll*-.. Chautauque. JRockilgham — Chautauque *- Herkimer *-** Chemung...* Bradford.Chentango *- * New London. Chenango.............. Clinton-..... Clinton..... Columbia...* Columbia * —. Columbia * Otsego...... Cortland *.. Dutchess..... Delaware * Saratoga..... Delaware..* Fairfield...... Dutchess *. * - Dutchess. * Dutchess - - - Litchfield. Dutchess * - - Dutchess. - Erie.. Orange...... Erie... Grafton...... Erie *..... Bennington * Erie...... Lewis... Essex........ Grafton *.... Franklin *. - Orange...... Fulton *~- Monlltgomery.. Genesee *.. Cayuga *.u.g. Genesee..... Franklin. 3reene *.. Columbia.... Greene...... Queens...... Herkimer - - - Saratoga.... Herkimer - - Litchfield. * - - - Jefferson * -* Hampshire.. lefferson - - - - Providence.. $efferson * * - Middlebury... iings *. Hunterdon.. Kings........ Kings *-. (ings.... Kings....... Lewis... New Haven.Livingston * M Iiddlesex. * Livingston*-. Berkshire.... Madison...... Hampden *. Madison...... Madison * I.... 4Ionroe.....* Litchfield *. V[onroe *..... Rutland..... Ionroe.... Litchfield.*.. I Montgomery * Montgomery vontgomery M* ontgomery. I New York * * New York... 1 New York * Queens...... New York * *- Grafton......i qew York * * New York... few York *.. Baltimore ** Jew York * * New York... New York * * New York...I ew York -* Columbia. I iew York * *eport.... I i )P BIRTH. State or Country. New York.. New York.. New York.. New York... Rhode Island. Maine....... New York. New York... New York... Ireland...... New Jersey.. N. Hampshire N. Hampshire New York... Pennsylvania. Contecticut I L 3 4 4 5 5 5 5 4; 4: 5; 4. 5'; I I '.........!New York... New York * New York... New York. New York... Connecticut * New York Connecticut. New York... New York... N. Hampshire. Vermont New York.. N. Hampshire Vermont New York.. New York.. Massachusetts New York... New York.. New York.. Connecticut Massachusetts Rhode Island. Vermont New Jersey.. New York. New York... Connecticut.. Connecticut.. Massachusetts Massachusetts New York.. Connecticut. Vermont Connecticut. New York.. New York... New York... New York... N. Hampshire New York MIaryland.... New York.. New York... New York ghode Island si.4} 48 6s 41 6i 5( 52 57 3( 5.' 31 4( 62 5S 48 4S 50 52 31 40 i 56 53 52 57 31 17 16 33 13 1' 16 12 14 FROM WHAT OR FOREIG Profession or OR COUNTR a Occupation. CESTORS ci PaTeimaa 9 Physician...... England -. 9 Farmer........ England... 3 Lawyer........ England * * 0 Farmer.... G. IGermany.. 6 Lawyer & Far.. Wales..... 0 Merchant & Far. England.... 0 Farmer........ England.... S Lawyer........ England.... MIerchant...... England... 3 Farmer Enigland... 3 Farmer........E land.... S Farmer.....relalnd "* 2 Lawyer........ Egland * - - 5 Farmer. E....E ngland -.. Law> er........... Lawyer. E..... England.... r Lawyer. E gla....England.... 3 Far. & Lawyer. Scotland.... 1 Farmer........ England.... i Farmer.....I England... - Surveyor...... England.... DFarmer........ France.... Lawyer.*.... -England. -. 6 Lawyer & Far.. England.... 3Lawyer. c.... England.... Merchant...... England.... iFarmer..... England... F Lawyer...... a England... i[Lawyer...... England * *.. Lawyer..... Belgium.... Farmer *- - England - - Farmer..Walesae.... 7Lawyer....... Ireland... I Lawyer. FaIr.-England.... Lawyer........ England.... Lawyer -.... Germany.... Lawyer. *- * - *England.... Farmer...... Scot.land.... Physician...... England Farmer.......EEngland d - Mechanic....... Germany. I Farmer......I Holland.... Lawyer........ Ireland - -E Lawyer........ England -.. Farmer........ Bank. & Farm.. France il Farmer.....France... E Farmer. Scotland.. G Farmer...... England.... E Furnace-man.. England - Physician * * England - - Merch't; Far.. Englland... E Lawyer & Far.. Germany *- Gr Mechanic...... Ireland. E Merchant......England... r Merchant......ngland. - - G Lawyer a.. England.... E Paint Dealer-* — Ireland.... Ir Lawyer........Ireland *... Faryer........ England - -E V Physician~....rEnglaned.*.C Lawyer.' & FrIEngland....E Blacksmith e....ngland;.... EUROPEAN tN KINGDOM Y THEIR ANAME. Maenal.,Germany. England. Scotland. Germany. Scotland. England. Englanld. Engtland. Scotland. England. Ireland. Holland. England. England. Ireland. Scotland. Wales. England. England. England. England. England England England Ireland. Ireland. Ireland. [reland. Ireland. England. Ireland. England. England. England. -Iolland. Ingland. Ingland. 'ermany. Ingland. ngland. ermany. ngland eland. ermany ngland, eland. anada. ngland. Vill LIST OF DELEGATES. LIST OF DELEGATES-(CONTINUED.) PLACE OF BIRTH. FROM WHAT EUROPEAN..____ OR FORE:GN KINGDOM OR COUNTRY THEIR ANNames of Members of the Representing a Profession or CESTORS CAME. Convention of 1846. %hat County. County. State or 4a Occupation. Country. Paternal. Maternal. Maternal. John L. Stephens......... New York... Monmouth... New Jersey.. 39 Lawyer........ England.... Wales. David R. F. Jones........ New York. Queens...... New York... 33 Lawyer....... Wales...... Ireland. Lorenzo B. Shepard...... New York.. Greene..... New York... 25 Lawyer........ England.... England. John H. Hunt............ New York *-. Greene...... New York... 42 Printer........ England.... England. Campbell P. White.. New York * Antrim.... Ireland...... 60 Merchant...... Ireland *... Ireland. Robert H. Morris- -....... New York... New York... New York... 42 Lawyer........ Wales...... England. Siephen Allen............ New York ~ - -New York.. New York... 75 Mechanic...... England... - Germany. John W. McNitt.......... Niagara..... Hampshire.. Massachusetts 59 Farmer........ Scotland.... England. Hiram Gardner-.......... Niagara.-. Dutchess.....New York... 46 Lawyer........ England.... England. Charles P. Kirkland.. One ida...... Oneida...... New York... 48 Lawyer........ England.... England. Hervey Brayton.......... Oneida...... Onei da...... New York... 44 Merchant...... England ~. Ireland. Julius Candee............ Oneida...... New Haven-.Connecticut. 46 Merchant...... England.... England. Edward Huntington...... Oneida.... Oneida.... New York... 28 Civil Engineer.. England.... Elijah Rhoades........... Onondaga.. Hampshire... Massachusetts 55 Merchant t..... England.... England. Cyrus H. Kingsley...... Onondaga *" New London. Connecticut.. 56 Farmer........ W ales...... Ireland. David Munro............. Onondaga.... Cheshire.... Massachusetts 62 Farmer.... —. Scotland... William Taylor.......... Onondaga.... Hartford...... Connecticut.. 54 Physician...... England.... England. Robert C. Nicholas..... Ontario...... Stafford...... Virginia. 44 Farmer....... England.. Scotland. Alvah Worden........... Ontario...... Saratoga.. New York... 48 Lawyer."..... England.... England. John W. Brown.......... Orange................. Scotland...... Lawyer........ Lewis Cuddeback.... Orange....... Orange.-... New York... 38 Merchant..... France. George W. Tuthill. -.. - Orange...... Seneca...... New York... 45 Farmer -.... William Penniman... Orleans...... Hillsborough.. N. Hampshire 53 Farmer........ Englanna. Sereno Clark, -....... - Oswego.. Hampshire...Massachusetts 52 Far. & Surveyor England.... England. Orris Hart -............ - Oswego... Hartford. Connecticut.. 55 Merchant...... England.... England. Levi S. Chatfield........ — Otsego..... Otsego...... New York... 38 Lawyer...... Scotland.... England. David B. St. John........ Otsego. Saratoga.... New York... 43 Farmer...... England.... Samuel Nelson.......... Otsego...... Washington.. New York... 53 Lawyer........ Ireland... Governeur Kemble....... Putnam...... New York... New York... 60 Iron Master.... England.... France. John L. Riker............ Queens...... Queens...... New York... 59 Lawyer & Far.. Holland.... England. Perry Warren".. —..-. Rensselaer - - Rensselaer... New York... 47 Farmer........ England *.. England. Abram Witbeck.- ----- Rensselaer... Rensselaer... New York... 36 Farmer..... Holland.... England. Wm. H. Van Schoonhoven Rensselaer ~ -. Saratoga.... New York... 35 Lawyer —......Holland.... Holland. John T. Harrison...-.... Richmond.... Middlesex.... New Jersey.. 60 Physician...... England. - Scotland. John J. Wood............ Rocand ocklandRockland - New York... 62 Farmer. Egland.... Scotland. James M. Cook........ Saratoga...Saratoga.... New York... 38 Manufacturer... England.... John K. Porter............ Saratoga.. - Saratoga.... New York... 27 Lawyer........ England.... France. Daniel D. Campbell....... Schenectady.. Schenectady.. New York... 42 Farmer.... Holland.-. Scotland. John Gebhard, Jun...... Schoharie.... Schoharie.... New York... 43 Geol. & Natur't. Germany.. Germany. William C. Bouck.*. Schoharie.... Schoharie. New York... 60 Farmer........ Germany. Germany. Ansel Bascom............ Seneca...... Onondaga. New York... Lawyer.. England. ngland E ngland. Bishop Perkins........... St. Lawrence Berkshire.... Massachusetts 58 Lawyer........ England... Scotland. John Leslie Russell........ St. Lawrence. Franklin.... Vermont....41 Law. & L. Ag't. England"... England. Jonah Sanford............ St. Lawrence. Addison...... Vermont..-. 55 Farmer....... England William, Kenan........ Steuben. Cavat... Ireland..... 65 Farmer. Ireland.... Scotland. Robert Campbell, Jr....... Steuben. Steuben - New York.. 37 Lawyer & Far.. Scotland Benjamin S. Brundage.... Steuben...... Orange......New York... 53 Farmer........England.... Dutch. Abel Huntington - -.... Suffolk...... New London. Connecticut.. 69 Physician...... England.... England. Churchill C. Cambreleng.. Suffolk..... Beaufort.-. N. Carolina... 59 Farmer........Teneriffe. ~ Scotland. William B. Wright....... Sullivan-. --- Orange. New York... 38 Lawyer........ Ireltd.... Ireland. John J. Taylor......... Tioga...... Worcester....Massachusetts 38Lawyer." England... England. Thomas B. Sears...... Tompkins.... Putnamr...... New York... 57 Farmer.. John Youngs............ Tompkins.... Orange...... New York.. 45 Miller & Surv. - - Germany.. Scotland. James C. Forsyth........ Ulster........ Orange...... New York... 27 Lawyer. Scotland... 'cotland. 4eorge G. Graham. Ulster........ Ulster...... New York... 51 Physic. & Far.. Ireland.. Scotland. William Hotchkiss........ Warren.. Albany...... New York... 40 Mechanic...... England.... - lolland. Edward Dodd............ Washington.. Washington " New York... 40 Merchant.... England.. Ireland. Albert L. Baker......... Washington -. Saratoga.... New York...30 Lawyer -..... England.... Wales. Horatio N. Taft.......... Wayne *... Berkshire.... Massachusetts 40 Mechanic...... Wales. England. Ornon Archer............ Wayne.. -- Washington. New York... 31 Teacher -.... England... Aaron Ward.............. Westchester.. Westchester..New York... 51 Lawyer.. -.. England.. Holland. John Hunter.............. Westchester - Philadelphia.. Pennsylvania 56 Farmer........England... Ireland. Andrew W. Young...... Wyoming.... Schoharis.... New York... 14 Author....Germany -. I freland. Elijah Spencer........... Yates........ Columbia -.... New York.. 70 Farmer....England. — Ireland. I~ TH E COWT-ENTJO flEPORTED FOR THE ALBANY ARGUS. MONIDAY, JUNE 1, 1840. At 12 o'cloclk this dany, the memberse&ecled to the C nvention to rcvi-~e t1 e Cotlistitiotion o,1 ~tiiS State'. mei iln the Assembly clamber at t~e apt. I, tgevaonlily to t;e Ian i% Iiich called the CulNti vt tollati)t existenice. Ilieu N. S. B,N'II) N. "-c: e a v of Stlate, called the Convention to ordler. andt aittiunc. d that he~ attended wvith ai cer'r ihe.1 roll of thle oteinhets elected to tne C tivention. Nvhch lie -would call over to ascertain whether th-1re was a quoriiti present. 'I hie roll Was called aecorAI igly, andl all the J-Iegates elect?iwvei e~l to their names, excepjt Mr NELSCN of' OtSeZo, Mr. PORTER of Saratoga~. nit!. Alr. N'OUNG Of' Wyomiig. Mt HOFFMAN then ri-41e and saidl a qucrttto of the Cotuventnin liavitig appeared and atisx~ere I to their taiats. it lecaut e rocccssery that thle convetticoti shout.I tal~ e the pro; er siteps undler the act ca l~lin them toseletir lot their orgatization. Hie tiunder~tcod the S'1ecretary of' State hal wvitlh im ionot onity the li.-;t of rtnenber:'which had been real, bot the oiriginal returns also intoi which the 1.st was trade if' thieref ore there were no question made as to the retortis, and lie lielit-ved there w~ee none, the next business woull lie fur the Ccnent oma to proiceed accotrding to the act. That act, declares that a presiding officer shall h~e cho-ten by ballot;it thea tres —ribes the chocice of othbet officers to complete thte organization (_" the body. Desirinz to) troceed itt a toariner most agreeable to the Convention itseT-iti the matiner Ittos-t usual in ]like cases-he wvouldl move that CHARLIE~S H. RUGGLES, of the county (if Duchess, be auppoiate f thle Chairmatn of' this Cotnvention, to presid'e over its. delibetrations. until a President be electe I and shall have tak-,n his seat. Thle SECRIETARY OF ST ATE pt t the question to tihe Convetution and Mr. RUGGLES was elected without I issent. Mr. 11UGGLES acc-ordingly teok the chair, to which peo ternpare tie had been elected. Mr. IRUGGLES, havina takien thle chair, announacel that the i rst business for the Cottvetticn would be to proceed tu the choice of a Pres-ideat by ballot. The roll wans then called by thte Secretary rf State, an I detezates. as- their names wvere called, advance-d aa I deposited their ballots. Ttie resutil of' the ballot was a-, flollow~s, Messrs. O'CONOR1 of New-York, BROWN of Oranve. and STETSON of CLINTON, acting as tellersJohui Tracy-0.................69 Atuithi WXde,TuteGeo. C. Chvole-.................9 Jaune.i Tudlma ge-................7 Ambrose L- iJdn..t.........t..... 5 G. WV. Paterson,. —, -. Geo. A. euiiu.2 Clii. ft. Ray-es.- 1- -- u-;. jul 1 It Iiiuude:4. --- —--—.....-.. B3iiait...................... JOUhN TRACY of Chenauzo, having received at t1iaority of all thle votes cast, wvas declared by thle C AIR to hie elected President. Toe CHAIii named Messrs. ALLEN of New. York. and TALLMADGE of' Dutchess, to coa.luct thle PresidJent, to the Chair. The PRESIDENT. on takling the chair ad. dressed the Conveation as follows 'Gentlemen of:he Cornvent on-I return you my nott~a s iteere ithaonts for thle honor - you lua% e dlone nie, in so (-cfin.y- nip as yo(ur preslutfan officer. I i-titer on ti'e vxeculic~n of the duuies of tMe tuffice W:Ith (fftildetvc-wi-i a dfeep) %cnse of its importance atti resiots~bilities. You may- tbe assuired of titi, bvst etloris tot &-ctiarge. its Iitries faiftufuly and *ntipartialhy, enid I shall rely ott your- aif and assistonce in efit fleet to such rules andi resitlations is" y'ou amRy o 1opt fot- tile preservationi (if order in hit trare.aet lot (if t ie tustie-uRs of the Con tention. A low ate, gun.enheen, to ex press ~he tiope ttiat the i-eSu;t of (itii latbors fiere may pi (imote the hiappi-tes~s and endizing, prospierity of the people of this Sieae. Mr. STETSON of Clinton. remarked that the act under which %%0 had -assembled, provided that this t'ody might appoint one ormiore secretaries It did not require a tLaldot. In conlor. mity with the provitsions of the ncrt, and guidled bp the precedent at the opening of the coinven. tion of '21, he begged leave to offer the following Resolveut, Thnt JAMES F. -STAItBUCK Of JYeffersc1 aind t-I EN R YW. S a oNG of Rteitsselaer, ti4r.?d they are hereli aptionleit secretuiries of tliiii cotivention Tue resolution was aidorted. Mr. NICOLL of New.York. offered the fol lowing11 Resolved, That MRtAM AMIE-, of' Columbiai, be entd lie is hereby appoitited Sergeatit-ut-Arms of this Coticen-. twa."1 Mr. HOFFMAN:-The act originating the organization of' this body, tdoes not, in terms, make any mention of a Serzeant-at-arms. Bhut a' Srgeant is exclusively t!.e executive officer of the house. It is so necessarily incident to every deliberative t~ody, that I prestime the Convertion. will have no difficulty in coming to the conchusi a that we ca nnot be entirely crgati ized without a Sergeant. Thouuh not designa ted in the act in terms, it is strongly implied ir it, andl from the necessity of the ease Ji- indis pensible. I theretbre second the resolution, ean shall vote for it with pleasure. Mr. MICQLL'$ rcolutiou was adapto4.. 2 Mr. CAMBRELENG, of Suffolk, offered the f)!j owii', ' hcllh,Na a doplted:" Ke.-\oled, rTlTlll. III.MAN I. lOWI.TTT, be and lhe is ~ erelby al)ppo.iled D)or lrtK eper of' thlis Collvlltiollnt. Mr. WARD, cf Westchester, offered the folIo witg:g i"R,stvtd, That a committee of five l)e appollted by the P'.ccidell it prepare riles tor t!ie rovel' r iim t and regulailll or, liitc ) pro'ecd1.1i oft 1lie Colivelit.oll.: Mr. HOFFMAN remarked that the rules and regulations by whicl a deliberative body were to pr,,ceed, were its law, and a most important matter for it to settle, being in ftct the settle. ment (uf the Imeans by which it would reach its end. It app)eared to iimn therefore that it would be well to increase the number. He was not tenacio;.s as to the particular number. In this case, he conlessed, lie should prefer a corniri;tee of 7. Mr WA.RD assented to that modification of the resolution, an l as anmended, it was adopted. Mr. tt)1FFMAN moved that 11 o'clock be the hour of Ineetilng herealter, until otlerw ise directed by the Convention, which was agreed to. Mr. BLOUCK olfer, i i i esolution directinl the Secretary to wait upon the clergymen of this city, and request theml to make arrangements amuong themselves so that one of their number shall open the daily meetings of the Convention with p rayer. 'l'he resolution a\\ a agreU d It. Mir. IMAiN N said somle Iprovisiol ws ias ecetbary that tlhy might be provided %with seutS. lic therefore moved tihat they proceed at once to ballot for them. Alter a conversational debate a resolution was adopted directing the:ecretary to piepare ballots with consecutive numnbers Ironl I to J21i iln deposIte tlhel in a box, and that somie e onie m1 -ber should be al)poilnted to iraw ltem tlhrl lrum as the names of the members were callce, and that a committee of 3 be appointed to -ul erin. teal the depositilig oI the baill(ts tliereii. Mr. TILDEN mnove.l tihat tlhe 'ecretary be directed to furnish the usual tnumber oi new\s. papers to the m!embers of the Convention. Mr. CHATF1I K'1,D doubtited il they lad auIthority to make such an appropriation. or indeed any aipropriation of the public 1oney. Mir. SWVACKHAMEII hoped the resolution would not be adopted. Mr. RICHMO)ND moved to lay the resolution on the table-whlicli was carried. A motion to adjourn was tmade anl lost. Mr. CHATi IELD expressed the hope that the Convention would proceed to draw lor seats. On mrotion of Mr. WARD the Convention then adjourned to 11 o'clockto-morrow morning. TUESDAY, JUNE 2. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. WYCKOFF. were aware that several states of this Union had The minutes of ycs'erday were read, and on recently met in Convention and adopted new the motion of Mr. TALLMADGE, were amen- Ccnstitutions, incluling new subjects of constided so as to state the fact that the Secretary of tutional law. But few of theml had seen those State attended in person, called the Convention conetitut.ions, and I:e presumed ecery Iimemler to order, and delivered the list of menibers to of this Convention wvould be desirous of reviewthe Convention. As amended, the minutes ing those new provisions of constitutional law were approve.i. which had been adopted by other states. It The PRESIDE'NT announcedthefollowing as would be exceedingly proper and necessary to the committee on rules, under the resolution of their convenience that they should have those yestrL'day,viz: Messrs.WARD,TALLMADGE, Constitutions belore themn and it appeared to LOOMIS, PATTERSON. CAMBRELENG, hilm that a sort of mantal, about the sizeof the CHATFIELD and SIMMONS. Red Book o! the Legislature, embracing the act A MANUAL. creating this Convention, and our own constituThe PRESIDENT announced the first ques- tional provisions, tgetlher with the rules of this tioni in order lo be on a resolution offered yes. boly, a list of its n;ebers and residences, lnd terllny ly Mr. BOWDISH, as bollows: other matter, would be an exceedingly useful " Resolved, 'lhit each memrber of the Convention be boo l. firnir-hid, at aS early a day;a; practicable, with a copy Mr CHATFIELD said it appeared to him ol our t resent:ons ittimion, printed in proper size aid that the resolution wns defective, inasmuch as f.,rm to toc preserved wi,l the files of the proceedings it did not desianate the officer or authority by of this Coiventioi. i which the resolution was to be carried into Mr. WARD moved as an amendment that the effect. He was of opinion that some person book be printed in pamplhlet form, and that it should be designated, eit er the comptroller or contain the old and new Constitution with the some other person. He had not consulted the various amendments which have been made proceedings of the convention of 1821, tut lie therein supposed the secretaries of the convention were iMlr. STRONG suggested that the Constitution the proper persons to furnish the ordinary supof the United States should also be included. plies to the members of the convention. Tne Mr. MURPHY suggested that the proposed resolution shoultl designate the officer who was boolt should also contain the act calling the to carry it into effect, and he would move so to Convention into being, together with the amen. aniend it. But to his friend firon St. Lawrence dautry act which had been passed. he would suggest that he was about to make Mr. RUSSELL said it appeared to him that I this contemiplated book too large. If it was to the resolution, even with the proposed amenl. be as comprehensive as intimated, it would not ments, would not be sufficiently comprehensive I be printed until it was time that the convention to meet the purpose of its mover. Most of them I should adjourn. If, however, the new consti. 3 tutions were to be incorporated in it, he should learned friend from Herkimer-he had almost desite al-.o to have the old ones. for he thought said New-York (a laugh)-in his suggestion m:iuy of them were as good as the new ones.- that the -contract shou d be made with the CompT;iere was, however, a book whvich miglt be troller. The appointment was to be made by ha I1 (r seventy-five cents, containing the cnsti- the convention, tile President was to certify to tutions of the states, and rather than incur the the amount to be paid, and it appeared to him exi)enme and occasion the delay which would be the contract should be made with one of' our own consequent on the printing of so large a manual, officers-the secretary-tand not with the comp. lie w.xiuld prefer that the clerk should be directed troller who was no officer of ours. He adopted, to purchase copies of that book for the use of however, the wise suggestion of his triend from the conventi,,n. Herkimer, that the contract when drawn, should Mr. RUS3ELL informed the gentleman from be in conformity with the existing contract with Otsego tthat the book to which he referred did the Comptroller. not contain many of the new constitutions which Upon heating the resolution read again. Mr. had been adopte.i by the states. It did not con- M. said he did not see that it required any atain the i onslitutions of' Louisiana, Missouxi or nendment. New Jersey. Mr. HARRIS here moved lo amend by stri. Mr. CHATFIELD: No, nor Texas. king out "the contractors for the present legis. Mr. RUSSELL moved the retfrence of thea laive printing" and insert the name ofChas. F. resolution to a committee of three, to be appoint- Boughton. e.l by the Chair, to consider and report on the Mr. JONES calied for the ayes and noes on the subject. amendlment. Mr. CHAMBRELENG said the gentleman Mr. PATTERSON objected that the resolu. frono Otsego ha.l referred to a book ot constitu- tion, as it stood, was not in strict conformity tions of different states; now lie had carefully with the convention act-which prescribed that examined that book and lie found that there was a printer should be appointed by the convenscarcely one constitution there that was the tion. Adopt itin its present form, and no name present constitution of the states of the Union. would appear on the record as printer. How It did contain the constitution of New Jersey, were we or the public to know who was print. which had been adopted by a recent Conven- er? The names of the present contractors tion; but he believed that was the only present should be inserted. constitution in the book. He (Mr. C.) had pro. Mr. CHATFIFLD moved to strike out " the vided himself with the constitutions of Louisi- present contractors," &c., and insert the name ana, Florila, Texas and Missouri, and the con- of Carroll anl Coole. stituti n of New Jersey could be taken fromt Mr. PERKINS called for a division of, the the book referred to; and lie agreed with the question, gentleman that it would be advantageous to the Mr. HARRIS called attention to the fact that members of the Convention to be furnished switl his motion to strike out and insert was first in these anl the other new constitutions, vwhich order. contained provisions that he hoped would be The CHAIR ruled that that was the pending nseful to the members here, and some of which motion. he hoped they woull aldopt. Mr. JONES withdrew his call for the ayes The motion to refer the whole subject to a and noes, and commnittee of three, was then put and carried, Mr. HARRIS renewed it. and the PRESIDENT appointed as such corn- Mr. PERKINS renewed his call for a division mittee Messrs. IRUSSELL, BOWDISH and of thequestion. KIRKLAND. Mlr. SAIISBURY expresse:l his preference APPo NTMENT OF PRINTER. for the mode adopted last winter-of putting the Mr. TAYLOR of Onondaga offered the fol- pr'lltintz out on contract to competition. lwing. CHATFIELD replied that by the con. lowing:- ventlon act the printer to the convention would I-slvet, T;pit the scretanry of this co ntin he receive no more than was paid to the legislative "i reled t t n o e oy -tie r-set coat rator(r fir tie tegisitive prriting 0l xecutethle pri.tilja otf he cuolv(cl- printer-and we were required by it to appoint tim,, tile s;tinet rate oft ctlnsailttio fixcd by their a printer-not to put out the work on contract. cout r;ct t;fr Il lt Itgi-ltive lil ing As to the call fir the ayes an l noes, as we fhad Mr. HOFFMAN suggested that the resolution yet adopted no rules, it required a majority vote be put in such a shape as to have the printer or to order them. the convention enter into a contract with the Mr. RICHMOND differed with Mr. C. oa Comptroller, preci-ely as lie had contracted lor this point. the legislative printing. That would facilitate Mr. TAYLOR sustained Mr. C's position as the keeping of the accounts antl the set lement to the parliamentary rule, and of them by the Comptroller. He ha I not the The CHAIIR so ruled. law before him, but his frien:l from New York M1r CHATFIELD now modified his motion (Mr. Morris) had, and could suggest the proper so as to instert the words Carroll and Cooke he. amen:l rent. fore the sor Is, ' the present contractors, &c." Mr. MORRIS rea:l firom lhe convention act, li'. TAYLOR assented to llat modtification. to the effect thtat a printer shoult be app)loite I Mr. LOOMIS suitgeste.t that the appointmient who shoull receive the same compensation pro. be Itad le ie direct actof the contvention. instead videe. by law for similar services for tile assein- of authorizing or directing the secretary to em. lly-the amount to be certified by the President ploy the presellt contractors. of the convention. Mr. M. differed with his lMr. TAYLOR replied that the resolution did 4 so in effect. He preferred that it should remain Mr. TALLMADC E was not aware thit as it was. they should require so many door keepers and Mr. PERKINS suggested that ifwe appointedl ssistant door ketl- crs, together with a Sergeant a printer directly, under the convention act, at Arms, some of wntl must necessarily have which passed before the act under which the nothing to do. Iie would much rather lhave present printing contracts were entered into, more boys employed as messengers than this there might be a doubt, unless special provision accumulation of officers. was made to the contrary, whether the printer Mr. PERKINS explained that the alterations Would not be entitled to receive the old contract in the chamber, made a few years ago, renIler. prices, which were three times as much the fol- ed an additional door.keeper necessary. The io as the present prices. pages certainly would be inefficient in keeping Mr. TILDEN thought the resolution was in order in the lobbies, and at the door of the house. the right shape now. It would be tantamount He thought it would be found that the number to the appointment of the present legislative of door-keepers. employed by the Assembly printers, on condition that they should do tne would not be too many for this Convention, nor work on the same terms charged now for legis. more than the exigencies of its business re. lative printing. He hoped the Convention would quired. refuse to strike out, and dispose of the question Mr. RICHMOND called tho attention of the at once. Otherwise the whole morning might Convention to the number employed lor many be occupied on propositions to fill the blank. years prior to 1841, when the office of a second Mr. HOFFMAN said he heardtheresolution, assistant was created; and lie sail he had yet to as first rend, very imperfectly. He had since learn that there was more order since than be. seen it. It was substantially a fair execution fore that increase of officers. of the convention act, and contained the proper Alter some further explanations between limitation as to price. He was entirely satisfied Messrs. RICHMiOND and PERKINS, the reso. with it. But his friend from Albany (Mr. Har- lution was adopted. ris) wanted to name a person. Strictly, he ad. Mr. RUSSELL submitted the following reso. mitte l, a motion to strike out and insert was di- lution:visible. But for the last 20 or 30years there was Resilved, That the President of the Convention he scarcely a legislative boily that had not chang- authorized to designate sucll dloor-keepe s for the gal. el that usage by special rule. And he hoped, leres;s he ryvy lectm ieceisary, ald aliio Ihe llPeae sary nulirer of' niesseiiger- fur Ithe Cornvetiiotn as the gentleman desired to run his man, lhe r O e ollvlll miitht have a fair chance for a race, and that the Mr. RUSSELL explained the provisions of motion woul.l be put on striking out and insert- the act unJer whicl they were asserbled in re. ing, without insisting on a division. He hoped latio t this subject, anr the legsalivc prac his friend froim St. Lawrence would be liberal tice likewise, and added that the resolution was enough to acquiesce in this course. It would necessary to leglize suc apointments and to authorize the payment s.f their compensation. not waste time, or come to any very dangerous authorze the ayent f the no cmpensation. result. Mr. PA'I'ERbON had no *objection to the Mr. PERKINS withdrew his call for a divi- tter part of the resolutior, but Ie had to Ic sion. former part. He thought they had gone far Mr. HARRIS surrested that the resolution "enough in the appointment of( door-keepers to should have been offered in blankl-and adopted thls conventioi. He did not feel disposed to ob. in blank-so that a direct vote might be taken ject to the appointment of threefor as the gentle. on insettinr. Inan from St. Lawrence ha.l said, they had three Mr. TAYLOR preferred to retain his resolu-ldoors. Yesterday it was true, they went a little tion in the shape it was. beyond the law, but he was willing that the CapMr. HOFFMAN remarked that t"e gentleman tain ot this convention (Mr. HOFFMIAN) should had no alternative but to move to strike out andhave his own way i appointiig a elreaol-atinsert. And as he (Mr. Hoffmran) had asked narms; but he was not willing ttlat they should that there might be no division of the motion, further trample upon tle law and create officer, and that cou se had been assented to, he hoped not providesl lor or reqyuired. Now tahe qlues. theMr. entleman w ould be satisfied with it. door-keepers for the galleries? He was rot a. Mr. HARRI.S was content. The convention, by a majority vote, ordered ware that such officers hal ever been;%ppoint. the ayes and noes on Mr. Harris's motion to ed-he was ot aware that it ws necessary strike out and insert-and it was put and nega- they should be appointe!-an:l tlheretore le lrotirtec, ayes 39, noes 84 vel to strike out that part of the resolutiun reTh're resolution, as offeredto su and modifiednt ets, on which he sisked Mr. TAYLOR, was then adopted. for tile ayes an I noe. Mr. RUSSELL explained. One object was DlOOIt-KEEPEitS AND MESE\GERS. to clothe the Presidelt with power to appoint Mr. JONES submitted the following resolu- two keepers of the galleries in case lie should tion deem them necessary, not only thiat the convenResolved, that W1. s. ROSS, cf the city of 'ew. tion might proceded with its ordinary business Y'rk, be;al he heieby is alppuoi.cd,tssistmni tour wiiltout disturbance. but tihat citizens andl ladies Keeler of his Consvellt rotl ho desire I to witness the proceedings froom the The resolution was adoptetl. galleries tmiriht d(o so with co11tcrt. Mt.r. PERKINS submitted the following: Mr. STRO.\G admired tile gallantry of the esoivtd, that FnANIS BRADDI', be and he hereby gentleman from St. Lawrence. wlho seermeil very in *.,u~....ed sccdanl Assirtat Door Koepcr of Ltrs desirous to take care ot the ladies, but lie was aauua. auot raware that there lhad beea any corplaia~ I. 1) made of disturbances heretofore, and hence he wa,,s at a loss to discove~r the necessity for the applolninmett (If tbleS-e two oflicers. If' there should tlnortunately be -any officer required in) the vtallh~ries, tiey could dispatch thither those employe Il1`0 that ellaniber whio had but little to do; and until. some necessity wvas shown, hie should bIj-ct t, such an expendituie of the peopies meottev. Sir. WVATERBURY, in the course of some remnarks- a this resolution, said the people had (011 lla ined of the exp~en-e of' legislation and this cnmvcntion was assembled to maiake provision for sucurityg an aoitple retrenchinent, andI yet lorsooth they were~ setting out with the app~oitntuent of' unnecessary officers who muI'St be Ipai-d by the peoplle. The yeas and nays wvere then ordered on the motion o starikge out, an I it was carried by a majority of 63 to 56, as i~o'lows: — \trsAlliie Angel, Archer, Ayriti r, 14. F Ritcktis, II. 4 ekti-, li,her, ilaseoti,, tiv.,ii, 1I ruee, B i I'l, ttoirr, G iilee, Gh tiribt-rliiri, Clisik, n-il, trunker, itut, tiodd, Forion, r lander-, tFo sythi, Gaibihrd, tirih~irm, (1r is Hartis reuti, a u-Iw y, l-i~mt!t. Hu1-it, A. ui-to ii i-toni t ~- u iiigtun irdan, tvintg!-iv, Kilikland, Mbarvini. M~iller, bitinro, Nielt-as, tPattei -ott lcuiiiiMat!, khoide,-, tlttich-wu.( ali-bttry, b-ct rs, haver, -Hieiditn, Si-itmoims, - Spencer, IV. H- 5-penc.er, siiin toni, St -iv, 1,ro mu vaw~c~h-itner, rTigga i, jimitnwv, Vtii -chttnhovtiv n 'A rrcii, 'A terbtiry, 'A liite, ~iI. laid, 0 orden, WV 'A\right, NV. 1B. Wrght, A. W. Yoitng —63. 1\U S-Mcs~zrs tPonek, P,-wsdi-sh, Browvn, Bruit-a-ge, Ca tyihrelviwg, B D. u~ Aittih-li It G u phell, th~tfiteld, Clyd.-, I,,rielly t.oriieli Ctohtthtibil, t anifoiri, litboits, i( rect-n, fItrt. Itowc kist,, 1titbintthiiii Mile, iuties, Ken lie, Ktmeatdy, K rnuti, Lotmis, At;, n, MXlNeil, Ac l t ax ccii, Mort is, I nr hy, i~1 oinoir, Pt ii~t5 Powers, 1-i.- emr ue-sI it-1iie, Soil', ld, Shb;, sivSepard, S~ntittl, S, John, Meveiis, Ptetsoit. I JID.1. ta:ylor- V. I ii r, Titdetn, t'ot. n,-vd. Tioh It, Vac'Ac, Ward, Witbeck, XVoud, Yaweger J. onting.- 66. Mr. CHTATFIELD then moved farther to amen-I by a provision to lim-it, the number of nuesseng rs to five. Mlr. JONES opposed the amendment, re. marking thwat 14 were emiployed by the late As. sernblly. He be'ieved ten wvould not be too lar-e a number but lie preferred leaving it to thle President. Mr. PATTERSON thoughit the number siloull he limnited, otherwise the President wiatil he much embarrassed. Mr. TILDEN said tile number last session,was lot largrer than the convenience oftile members required. It w-ould be an unwise economy to limilt tile number as some gentlemen desired. Mr. RICHMIOND contended that tIle convention would require a less number of messeng-ers thaen lise As-sembly. Mr. CIIATFIELD staid if the object was to give the boys goo)d places, tiley had better apItoint them, pay thein th~eir compensation and sen I thein home, or tiley were miot necessary there-. Mr. RUSSELL accepted the amen:Iment of the g-enltem-in froni Otsego for the avowved Ilurpose of terminating so serious a debate on so unisPortanit a mtte r. Mr. TILiDEN moved to strike out five and insert svven. SMr. SHEPHERD seconded thIC motion, which on a division wvas lost. The r-esolutitjia as atigulcd was then adoptel1 THlE JOURINAL. Mr. WARD said as yet no order bad been tak-en iin rengard to pubi'Ilising the jouniIal oII the Convention, and as it w~as necessary thatr soinithing11 shoul. I be done, lie moved that 600. cotpies (Ifthe journal of proceedings be pubiisiied dai-. ly, thatr beintg the number required by tile Legisia tore. Aftet- a brief discussion, in whlich Me~srs. STRtONG,TALLMIADGE, BRUCE an I VARD ttook part, Sit-. MURPHY tmoved to refer that subject to the committee con printing hie cons-titittions, to tatke such order on it as tiley aight deem proper. whit ic was agreed to. OtiKIt tIP t1ROt"Eli ING. Mr. JONES offered a resolution for the appointmetit of a commnittee of' i16, two troin eaei senatorial district, for the turpose of' conisiderinz and reporting to tile Coiivention, the best practicablei- mode of proceeding to the revision of thle condtitution. At the suggestion of Mr. CHATFIELD, Mr. JONES censetited to let the resolution lie on the table. IIULL S Mr. TAGG ART offered the following resolu. tion:. Resolved, Titat the rilles of the Convention for tile revision tfl the cowns'itiition tof ts be mict they are hereby adolpted. as t he rt les o( t~iis miJv titioni, finll rules for thua ptir, ose are adopted by this Guonvention. After a brief' debate, tile resolution was laid on thle table. On motion of Mr. PERKINS, AB3NER M. BEARDSLEY wes appointed to takl-e charge of the books, stationery, &c., of' metmbers of' the convention, whicilh office lie leld under tite clerk of' tile Assettibly during, the last session ol the iegislatorcJtDtt'AL. EX17ENSES-EXECUTIVE PATRONAGE. Sit. KIRKLAND here rose, saying, titat it was, very itiportailt thatr the Convention siltuld Ilave authenltic iii ortitation on matters of' fact having a ben rin,_ on tilt —crave sttbjects tliat would come before it. He took tile liberty, therefore, of offering two re solutiotis, calling~For inlormatioti which it mi~zilt titke scone little time to obtaitn. Sir. K. sent 01) the followin~g: Resotived, Tb-it the Se-retarfieF irthits (Cinvention be dioected to attire~ssa letter ti the coittiuy tt casitrer of each ecttity iti his svtetic reqovslst itg a1 imm~d ate:itisver te tile fillwiuiig qttcs. i-Il W: IiI' A Ita ttitti h wh eeti -,iid out of tie tmrtsii ry tX yotir c- tin v to lie othdes of tie ct imitty co~ur s, Itor 1 licir jodic iai _,crvc ies durit g etch o' 11h' years Iis ititi Si:, tResolved, I htt tike!Secretary of t -tire he rcqttesqted Iii p. ettre for th lv se itt thifs ecotivetni mit a i t C~ -tV.i, miie if iii t lie i tlet s itt t his state the iticimieit s of G v itor with the cons itt of' the Settate. M-r. RUSSELL suggrested that tile first resolution would riot probably reach all the ittiorutiation. intendedl. The amount paid fron tine county treasury tlirectly to jouIges for julicial services diiI not include the arnoiunt atidLited by the supervisors rind paid for other services titan atten hage- comurtsSMr. KIRKLAND'S object wvas to obtain an an tientic staterene t of tite amotunts paid to theC jtidges of the county cotirts for strictly judlicial services, not iiiciuding, the a maottttt paid furs-er. vic-es whiclWe were istia 0 Mr. SMITHI suggested that the clerks of the counties could protably furnish this informa. tion with more Iacility than the county treasu. rers-as they kept a record of the numlber o( days the courts were in session, and could easily certily to the amount paid. Mr. RUSSELL concurred in this suggestion. Mr. KIRKLAND understood from a gentleman near him that county clerks adopted differcnt rules in the computation of time. But his object was to ascertain the judicial expenses of the counties. and would assent to any modification of his motion that would reach that end. Mr. RUSSELL then moved to amend so as to direct the enquiries to tie county clerks. AMr. BItOWN doubted whether the resolution was sufficient!y comprehensive. He submitted to the mover whether, limited as it was, it was not extremely delective. All knew that the great expense atten.Jng the administration of justice through the county courts, arose from other sources than the mere per diem allowances to juJges. Jurors lees. constables fees, tile fees of other officers of the courts, the compensation paid to poor witnesses in criminal cases-contUibuted to swell these expenses. He desired that the resolution should pass, but he desired to see it in such a shape as to reach all the iniurmntion to which he had reftrred. He sug. gesied therefore, either that it shoul.l be rnodiiti'd or that it should lie on the table for further consideration. Mr. KIRKLAND assented to that, and the first resolution lies on the talble. 'The.econil resolution now coming up, Mr. STrOW mnoved to include also the officers appointedl by the Canal Barld. Mr. KIRKLAND assented to that. Mr. STOW continied:-He hoped the resolu. tioin would lie on llie table for the present-for like the other, it was not comrprelensive enough. He hoped both would lie on the table and be pr inted. Mr. KIRKLAND assenting, the resolution was laid on the table Mr. SIIEPIHEIRD dtesired to modify the reso. lution, and for tlat purpose moved that it be re. ferred to a committee of' five. Pending Mr. SHIEPHIERI)'S motion, the convention, on motion of' Mr. CHATFIIELD. Adj. to 11 o'clock to-morrow morniing. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 3. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. WYCKOFF. The three gentlemen who were absent at the organization of the convention were this (day in their seats. Mr. ANDREW AV. YOUNG of Wyoming, was in attendance on Tuesday; Judge NELSON ot Otsego, and Mr. JOHN K. PORTER 0f' Saratoga, assunied their duties this morning. RU ES AND fKtGUi,A TI;NS. Mr. WARD, from the special committee on rules, reported in part. The report was read by the Secretary. It consisted of a series of rules which are common to nearly all legislative and deliberative bodies. Thev were againi read separately for the action of the convention, and were adopted from one to twelve inclusive. The thirteenth ruleprov:ded for the admission of persons to the floor of the House other than menmbers and officers. is in these words:-. No person, except members and officers,f the convention, sthall b1e admitted to the floor of the tolse except with the;errmissiuo of the rresident or on the vitatil iou of a mermber 2' Mr. MORRIS thouaht they had better pause a little before they passed that rule, as it would open the door to every person who might come there. He should feel impelled, tinder such a rule. to comply with the request of every man, woman and child soliciting admission; an I knowing the kindness of feeling of the presiiing officer, he had no doubt his liberality in this respect would quite equal his own. But when they dil come they muststand, and the avenues wold therefore necessarily be blockel up. He was willing to include those who were or.inarily included in such rules. an.I he woull leprive the members of all power to a lmit any bo ly else, and thus lie hoped they should be able to pass through the labor incumbent oa them in this oppressive season, without destroying the health of those who were obliged to he here,. Mr. C-IATFIELD desired the gentleman fiom New Yorlk to send up his amendment. Mr. MORRIS said he was not prepared with an amendment. Ile subsequently said that having received an amenlment fron a friend near him he would submit it to the consideration of the convention. The SECRETARY read the amendment, as follows: " No person shill he admitted within the har with. 0out p rmissioti of the Presidert, * xcept the m' moers ofl the Coliventliol;and its at'elndlin,, the Governor, tLieut Gove nor, ex Presiden s of the U. S, tnd firiter Governors rid ILiet. Governors of this - ate, Jlidnes ',f Ihe '-tuprerne ourn the Ch ticellor;and ViceChlincellor, the Attorney General. 1 oriptr.)ller, Treasuirer, s-ecrettary, a;n s urvtyor Generl I, Alernt,ers itaid ex -Merners of Coigress, and Members oi the "enite and Assembly of ths State Foreiign.Mllister;s and their Scretaries, officers whio by n mr have fcceived the th;inkl of Convress for their gall;ntry ind t ood condi.ct displayed in ihe service ol their coul try " [The realing of the amendment elicited roars of laughter. ] Mr. PATTERSON said he had been very much amuse I on hearing the amendment read. The gent etian from New York ohjecte.l to any considerable number being admitted within the bar, but when they got that gentleman's tinendlment, they founl that for every one that the members of the convention would invite to the floor this amenliment would admit ten. Mr. MORRIS requestedl the Secreta'y to state whose hand writing the amenrdment was infor he had not read it. Laulhter.] It was hian led to him by a gentleman near him, and it now, on hearing it rea l, appearedl to be a brief for a speech in opposition. [Laughter.] But having offe red it he was responsible for it, and he desired to know in whose writing it was. 7 Mr. WARD, in justice to his honorable friend, to, k ui)on hi.-lell' the paternity of tae amendr..ent. Mr. PATTERSON then made some remarks in vx p'aRat n of the difficultLe with which t'i< committee had had to contend in this matter.HIe adje I that tnere were seats in the galleries and below the galleries lor the accommodation of visitors, F.nd concluded with the expression of his preference for t'e rule as reportel. Mr. A. W. YOUNG'thought it would be very inconvenient for every person desiring to come within the bar to be ohl gd to apply to the Chair. He would leave the who'e matler to the discretion of members, without restriction. Mr. WORD:EN tien propose to exclude all persons: without permission of the Chair, except members of the Convention an I its attendants. This would leave the courtesies of the Convention where they should be-in the hands i of its presi.ling officer. This would secure ad. mission to distinguished genileme-i who might desire it. But if the door was open to every delegate to exercise his own discretion in dispensing the courtesy of the Convention, it was )lain that it would be restricted to no reasona. ble or proper limit. For one, lie should feel bound, under such a rule, to invite every gentleman who should ask it, to a seat here. Mr. W. alluded to the large atten;ance of spectators within the bar at the last session of the legislature, as a serious interruption to the public bu. siness. It was not our fault that this hall was not large enough to admit all who might desire a seat within the bar; and we were compelled of necessity, especially at this season of the year, to restrict the courtesies of the body to narrow limits. Mr. MO RRIS here withdlrew his amendment. Mr. STETSON moved to strike out tile exception, in Mr. WORDEN'S amendment-so that it should provi le that no person should be admitted within the bar without permission from the Chair. Mr. WORI)EN assented to that. Mr. BASCOM objected that Mr. Worden's proposition would still imply that members of' the convention, who came here of right, were to come here only on the invitation of the Presi. dent. He sugzestel that the rule should he that citizens of this state might be amnittel on the invitation of the Presi lent. Mr. SWACKHAMER remarked that the Go. i vernor General of Canada, was expecle I here I in a few days, anl that under such a rule, lie might be excluded. c Mr. TAYLOR sustained the rule as originally t reported. Under this amen Iment the chair wo'ld I be overwhelmed with applications by members a on hehalf of some friend. All such al)plications t would be grante I, antl we should have as many v within the bar as if every member had the mi mht s to invite persols within the bar. He did not t apprehen:l any difficu'ty unler the original rule, t nor was it probable that the lobbies would be so e thronged as usually during a sission of' the le. t gislature-and if it were so, they would come 1 to listen to the (lebates, and not to importune or e harrass members in regard to matters pending t here. fi Mr. HOFFMiAN urged that some exception c should be made in favor of the officers of the state government, anl the judiciary-!eaving ltlingouished indivi luals o' other states and oth-,e' countries adii.aible on the invitatioia l' the Pi esident. Mr. CROOKER offered a rule, substant.ally that suggested by Mr. Hoffnan-urging that ift lhe itumnber privilege,l to come within the bar were limited, other exceptions madle by the Chair in tfvor of distinguished personages would be in reality acts of courtesy, coming as they woill from the Convention itse!f,; hrough its presi. ding officer. Mr. CHATFIELD vindicated the rule as re. ported by the committee. It left this u hole natttr where it should be, in the control atn.liscetion of' the Chair and of members. Ilis objection to IMr HIoffm;an's proposition was that it iiade invidious an I unjust distinc'ions between judicial officers-excluding Recorders of cities, Vice Chancellors an I others, who were as much eititiel to admission as those proposed to he designate 1. It excluded also the President of the U. S., Ex-Presidents, Ex-Governors, U. S. Sen. ators. meibers of Congress, &c. He concurred entirely with Mr. Patterson on this sulject. He woul.l make no distinctions between citizeis, based on the circumstance of their havingt eld office, or their holding ohfice now. He could an. ticipate no difficulty or inconvenience from the discretion given by the rule as reported, to mem. bers and the Chair-believing that the courtesies of this body would not be abused, nor that any evil would result from it. Mr. RUSSELL submitted as a sort of compromise. anA sulstitute lor all these propositions one exclu ting all persons except by per. mission of the President, or on the written invitation of members-such invitations to be preserved by the door-keepers. Mr. GEBHARD submittel another, excluding all persons excett the State Officers, the Chancellor an I Vice Chancellors, the Supreme Court andl Circuit Judlges, unleyis un ler invitations from the President or some inember of the Convelation. Mr. HOFFMAN sent up a proposition to the same effect. except that the Presilent alone was to invite others to seats within the bar. Mr. BRUCE urged that none except members, officers and attendants should Ibe admitted with. n the bar, unless under invitation fiom the President. Mr. HOFFMAN insisted on extending the:ourtesy of the floor at all times to the existing government. On various subjects which were o come ulp. we must consult them. Committees tnd the Convention would be obliged frequently o call on them for facts, for papers, an;l for a lariety of information. They should have the rame fiee access to our roomn that we lhad to heirs. And it was no objection to an excep. ion in their favor that we ha l not room for ev. ery boly. We were constrained by the size ot he room from extendling thlis courtesy further. Fhe power being in the President to invite oth..rs to seats who in ordinary, courtesy were en. itled to expect it, the matter would be left suf. iciently open, ana whilst we should not be in. onmoled, for want of a proper circulation. all 8 would be accommodated that the space per. mitted. Mlr R. CAMPBELL expressed his repug. nance to a rule which, while it propose.l to admit the servants of the people to seats here, excluded the sovereigns themselves, among whom were many who were entitled to distinction as.public benetactors. He preferred to leave this matler in the control of memlbers. He did not believe they would abuse the privilege-and lielce, he shonll sustain the original rule. Mr. W. TAYLOR also sustained the original proposition of the committee-and again urged that the result would he the same, hether members were authorized to invite persons within the bar or the President-an I that it would only be a matter of annoyance to the Chair to be oblige.l to lear an' accedle to requ:sts from melmbers fir the ad(lmission of persons here. Mr. \WATERBURY thought as they were about to overhaul the constitution and laws of the state that it minrh' be advisable to have the counsel and instruction and advice of many of those whom they represented; he was, therefore, in favor o' a liberal admission within the bar. Mr. SIMMONS said as a member of the committee on rules he npproved of the rule as re. ported for reasons which had been already giv. en. All the circumstances had been considerse!, the state of' the weather, the probable embar. rassments of the President, and the other suggestions which gentlemen had urged-and the rule as reported was approved by the committee. If it were a opted he did not apprehend that it would be abused to any considerable extent.lie slould have preferred to have designated all the members of the state government anl some other gentlemen also, on the principle that the honor reflected would be more than that con ferred, as it would be a standing invitation to such honorable gentlemen to be witnesses of the proceedings of the convention; but on the whole such a rule, it was apprehended, would create some embarrassnlent. Mr. RUSSELL asked that his amendment might be read, which lie had oflered as a substitlte, to come up hereafter fJr the approval of the convention. The difference was that members of the convention in inviting persons within the bar should sen;l a written order, which should be kept by tie door-.keeper. — This formality woul:l make less frequent these invitations anil would diminish their abuse. The substitute was rejecte l. 'Mr. CONELLY offered a substitute which included the Governor, Lieut. Governor, State Of: ficers, and some others, which was not adopted. Mr. CROOKER urged a substitute which he had offered heretoforc, to the effect that no person should be admitted to the floor of the house except the Governor, Chancellor, Justices of the supreme court, circuit judges, an] heads of state departments. unless invited by the President or the convention. The substitute was not adopted. Mr. MARVIN offered a substitute, to limit the admissions to the Governor, Lieut. Gover. nor, ex-Governors, and Lieut. Governors, the Chacellor, Justices of the Supreme Court, Circuit Judges, members ot ifrmcr Conventions, and State officers, unless upon the invitaticn of the President. He explained his amendment, and stated Ihat while he deemed it unnecessary to make provision for the rdmission of officers of the General Government, hi- substitute would admit an ex President of the U. S. or a mem. ber o'fa former Convention. Mr. RICHM(.ND said if he had his choice he shouiil give admission to the members of the two list legislatures rather than to Charnctlors and Vice-chancello;s and Circuit ju!ges, fbr the revision of the constitution had been deliberated upon by the legislature, an 1 its members might be supposed to have matured their views in relation thereto. The question was then taken on the substitute and: it was rejected. Mr. GE.3H..RD moved to substitute the rule of the convention oi 1821, with tlhe exception of the word " late" before tle word " chancel. lor." Mr. PERKINS expressed a desire to move the previous question if at this time it could he enterrainle, which was negatived. Mr. LOOMIS s:id the convention evidently concurred with the committee in its main prin. ciple, which was that there should be no privi. le-ed class of officials or otlerwise; anl he all. prehended the power which the rule as reported would give to nmembers would not be abused. Mr. BRUCE said he should go for that proposition which secured equal privileges. If they were to admit officers of state, and the dignita. ries of the country, he should be in favor of ad. mitting all. Mr. STOW offered an amendment to the ef. eect that when any person was invited to the floor of the house, the name ofs uch person slould be furnished to the door-keeper, accompanied with the name of the member giving the invita. tion. Mr. RUSSELL advocated the amendmentMr. SMITH opposed it. On a division it was rejected. The rule as reported by the committee was then adopted. Rules 14, 15. 16, 17, and 18 were also adopted. When the 13th wv-s under consideration, Mr. TILDEN desired an explanation of a change which had been introduced fromn the usual legis. lative practice. Thle rule made provision lor the reconsideration of questions, anl did not limit the motion to reconsider to those who had voted in the majority. Mr. CHATFIELD explained that the rules had been fl-amed so as to leave their delibera. tions as opf.n and liberal as possible He ima. gined cases which might occur, to justify such a rule; and Mr. Tilden expressed himsellfsatisfied Rules 19 and 20) were also adopted. Mr. WORDEN thought it necessary to make a provision by which a chairman ol a committee of the whole, whenever he foun:l himself with. out a quorum, should report that fact to the President of the convention. Mr. LOOMIS explained that the well under. stood parliamentary law, as explained in Jeffer. son's Manual, was sifficient tor that and many other cases, to meet which the committee had not deemed it necessary to make special provi. siou. 9 Mr. WORDFN was satisfied, nnd withdrew his propositiun. But he desire] the gentleman frun He;kim.er to explain what provision had been innae for the amenlirnent or abroiration of these rules, if lhlat should be foun I necessary. Mr. LOO.MIS responle. That matter had been debate i in committee. Usually an amenlment of ttie rules required a two-third vote or some similar restriction, but as the rules had been a lopted on the most liberal principles to. wards the minority, i there might be considered two parties there, which was questionable, it ha I been thouw-ht better to leave power with the majority to amen I or suspend at any time. Mr. WORDEN expressed his satisfaction with the explanation which had been given CFSNU i AND MAPS. 'The PRESIDENT lail before the convention a communication fromr the Secretary of State, accompanied by 135 copies of the census and maps of this state. which had been procured and; were now furnished by direction of the legislature ol the state. THE JOURNAIS. Mr. RUSSELL here reported in favor of Mr. WARD'S proposition, directing the printing of 600 copies of the journal of the conventionwhich was agreed to. JUDICI iL EXPENSES. Mr. KIRKLAND called up his resolution, di. recting inquiries to be made of the several county clerks as to the expenses of the several counties for the judicial services of the counly judg es. Mr. K. said his object in off.ring this resolution yesterday was specific, and he therefore limited tle inquiry to the county expenses for ju-s dicial services. But under the suggestions of the gentlemen from St. Lawrence and Orange (Messrs. RUSSELL and BROWN) that it would be desirable to have still further information in relation to the expenses of the county courts, he now proposed to amend nis own resolution in conformity with these suggestions. Mr. K. read his proposition as he had modified it-saying that he believed it wou!d now be found to enmbrace every information that could.be useful as matters of fact. Ist The amount allowed during ench of the ye.rs 1841-45 o ile J i.dces of he County Coul r s of your county is co(flieilsstirii for;al!eidld lce at Court. J2d. Wialt, diiring:he s-;rm period was the amount allowe:1 for f-'es of gr;n.ld jurors, of petit Jtirors,of coi. lttnbles, of criers aid of poor witnesses, bta ing each beparitely. 3d1 (I l- t wis the agoregate expense duling those 9crrs for said 1 ounty Cottrts of dr,wig an;d r-umtn nn11 jurors,,if li-bts, fuel, &c., for the coulrt rioomr, aud of any other charges on the county incurred by holding these courts. 4th. F,>r how many days during each of said years wer- said C',unlty Courts ill scssion. tih What was tthe nlmril,-r of' cvil cases tried;t said C'our it, each of stid yeprs. nd wh t was the aggregate amount of vet dicts theretn. Mr. KIRKLAND repeated that he supposed the resolution covered all the information on every point connected with the expenses of the county courts, which would he useful to the convention. His reason for offering it at this early stage of the session, was because the informatioa sought was exceedingly important, and would require time to prepare it with accuracy. Mr. BASCOM desired to extend the inquiry to the expenses of the circuit courts, in tlie several counties. lie ladl prepare.l al amendment which woull call out that information. lie,ent iip the following amendment:Huw atly Circuit Courts anll Cour!s of Oyer and Telminer hanv breen htfld in said vearss of Idi4 b? Wtl,.lt his I.eelu the leitilh of the sessilos les. ectively? How many civil causes have beet tried hy jury? Wh.it the amu ri lit of the verdicts in the re- Ipctive cai es-ii W hat cotrvictioeu- i I the I iyer anil i ermiuiler tfor what ofellces, lln I how puniishedl?.. ha has Ileen allowed tL.e judg s rolf Ihli courty or attiendil hg thse court.hi it fi)r gra.ind jurors? \ htat for tletit jririte? xl't for criers aid co st;ables? 0\ hat for s-eritff? W hat lor porr wituesacs for each scessiul or terin of suid courls? Mr. KIRKLAND had no objection to that. Mr. BASCOM1 desired the gentleman from Oneida further to arien I his resolution so as to extend tlle inquiry to the expenrse of criminal proceedings in tlle county courts. Mr. KIRKLAND expressed his fears that the inquiry might be so extended as to delay the an. swers to too late a period. Mr. PE RKI N S suggested that there were some questions in the amended resolutions which the cotunty clerks might not be able to answer. As the accounts were kept in St. Lawrence county, he knew that would be found to be so. The fees of grand and petit jurors, constables and poor witnesses, and' the per diem )paid to the county judges, the clerks could give easily. But the amount paid for fucl and light, drawing of jurors, and some other such items, they could not so readily give, it' at all. These were mat. ters of audit by the supervisors not passing thro' the hands of the clerks on certificates as in the other cases. Mr. KIRKLAND, in order that the inquiry might be put 'n proper shape, moved to refer it with the amendmentt, to a committee of three. Mr. RH1OADES asked whether the inquiry was so framted as to obtain the amount of dlama ges ann: costs separate!l? Mr. KIRKLAND replied that it was not. The comnittee, however, could so frame it aa to meet that object. Mr. BASCOM suggested a committee of 8, Mr. KIRKLAND assenting, his resolution was so referrerd. Mr. PATTERSON moved that the Secretary cause a diagram of the house to be engraved and furnish each member with a copy. Agreed to. Mr. SHEPHERD offered a resolution calling on the Secretary of State for a list of the salaries paid to judicial officers throughout the state. Mr. TAGGART moved to refer this resolu. tion to the committee of eight just appointed.Agreed to. Mr. NICHOLL offered the following resolution, which was referred to the committee o 8 on Mr. KRIRLAND'S and Mr. BASkOM's propositions: " Resolved, Tliat the secretaries of this convention address letiers to each of the circuit judges rand the supremtie coi t commissioners of this state to the first judge of the several counties, including the tiNt jultdge of t e superior court, and also to the several mtastera and exariinrs in chancery, tor such itif rma;ioui at they may be able to furni:h in relatiuo to their lees u office for the year 1845." 10 NEWSPAPERS. 1 ber, so that the committee might not be without Mr. BROWN called up the resolution, provi. a responsible majority. ding fur supplying members with newspapers- Mr. JONES accepted the amendment. and it was adopted. Mr. PERKINS inquired what was expected Ptr;P,RATION FOR BUSINE:S. of such a committee-what its duties in detail? Mr. CHATFIELD now called up Mr. JONES'S Mr. LOOMIS desired to submit some remarks resolution, directing the appointment of a com- and a proposition-which perhaps would occuimittee of 16, to consider and report to the con- py more tine than the convention now would be vention the best practicable mode of proceeding to revse the constitution. Mr. TILDEN (Mr. LooMis giving way) movMr. CHATFIELD moved to amend so as to ed an adjournment, and ihe convention authorize the PRESIDENT to appoint one more Adjourned to 11 o'clock to-morrow morning. for the state at large. He preferred an odd numTHURSDAY, JUNE 4. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. BATES. ( Resolved. That a committee of 17 be ppointed The PRE:SIDENT announced the following by the President (two from each Senate district and u on. from bhe Stu te at large) to consider and report to as the committee, under the resolutions of the the convention the b est p)rctictlle mode of proceedgentleman from Oneida (Mr. KIRKLAND,) a- ing to a revision of the conistitutio of this St;tie; dopted yesterday:-Messrs. KIRKLAND, NI- r. LOOMIS having thefloor, remarked that CSHOLS BlSOWN, HARRI, the resolution was in terms pretty comprehenSMITH, BASCOM, and RICHMOND. sive-contemplating the applointment of a large MANUAL. committee, who might take it upon themselves Mr. KIRKLAND, from the committee to under the very strong and cogent powers prowhom was referred a resolution for the publica- posed to be confided to them-who might feel tion of certain constitutions and other matter in called upon to report a general plan of action the form of a manual, reported in part verbally limiting and directing to what points of the con By a fortunate accident, he said, the committee stitution, and to what only, the attention of the had ascertained that a person in the city of New convention should be directed. He should in. York had in process of printing all the con- fer that the mover had this in his mind from the stitutions for another purpose, and he (Mr. K.) magnitude of the committee he proposed. A addressed to him a letter to ascertain the fact. ommittee o 7 oul of itself constitute a This morning he had received an answer, ac- pretty respectable body for legislation-so large companied with 32 pages of the forthoming as to require that its proceedings should be republication, as a specimen of the work, which "ulated by parliamentary rules-that it should informed him that 200 or 300 copies could be have a chairman to be addressed in its deliberafurnished in pamphlet form in the course of a tonsIt ould be too lae a committee for week. Mr. K. read the letter, (from Mr. Wal- those informal conferences which take place ker, of the city of New York, publisher of the when to ohree constitute a committee. It Statermanls Manual,) and said he would deposit -aod unnecessaril lk e i c ite ow terely to the specimen with the Secretary to enable mem- an necessaily large i it was ey to bers of the convention to examine it. I1 on ex- p'ropse the subjects on which we should ap. amination it should be found unobjectionable, point committees. A single individual could the committee proposed to embrace in one pamph- pros these subjects, and whatever the let all these constitutions, notdoubting thatfrou committee or an individual member might the aggregate wisdom of the 28 states of the propose, t enon ust naly pass Union, this convention may derive a vast deal upon it. t was terefore a rmuch safer of information. The committee also, he was better, sorter course, to permit all the proposed constitutions of other states or territo- a voice on the questions submitted Every ries which have not become states, but whose member was sent here by his constituents to constitutions have been adopted. The commit- represent their wishes and views. They relied tee also proposed to publish the convention acts on his Judgment and intelligence and they exof 1845 and 1821. the names of the delegates to pected and desired him to pass on every prothe convention, their places of residence, the position submitted here. It was not wiseor dis names and residences of the officers of the con creet, in his judgment, to delegate powers unvention, and certain statistical information, necessarily. Committees were generally appointwhich may be important and necessary. He ed to investigate facts, to trace out the course of had no resolution to offer. He merely made the legislation on partiultar subjects-o reduce statement for the information of the convention, propositions to form-but we never did create a committee, much less a committee of this mag. (ORDER OF BUSINESS nitude, for the purpose of advising or passingon Mr. BROWN called up M. JONES' propostion itions. His own view was that the conoffered day before yesterday, asfollows:- vention should resolve itself into a committee of 11 the whole on the constitution, and there let any member propose the subjects on which he desired committees to he raised. Somebody had got to do this before the committee of 17. It might as well be done here, and let all hear the reasons offered, and pass upon the questions, for the convention must decide on them at last. Again, a committee of 17 would no doubt embody men of the highest character here,and whatever they might report would carry a weight with it too strong to be salutary in its influences; too strong to allow a fair and equal consideration for the conflicting propositions of any single member. Mr. L. presumed this proposition was adopted upon looking at the proceedings of the convention of '21. He was aware that a proposition of this kind was made on the first or second day of the session of that body, by Rufus King. It was adopted instanter-probably without the consideration of a moment, certainly witnout debate and off-hand. But on looking at the pro. ceedings afterwards,he found that several mem. bers regretted that that course had been adopted and presied a desire that the whole matter should have been referred at once to a committee of the whole. Among these was Col.Young who moved a reconsideration. Gen. Root then one of the most able members of that body, sustaiued the motion. Peter R. Livingston also expressed the opinion that the convention had acted hastily in appointing the then committee of 13. Mr. L. considered the weight of the precedent as amounting to nothing. That committee either because it propriety had been questioned, or for some other cause,. did not see fit to do more than to dissect the subject submitted to them; for instance, they proposed a commrittee on the legislative department, another on the judiciary, another on the Executive, another on the council of revision-all general subjects and presenting no such details as an individual would have submitted, after sitting down in his room and putting his proposition on paper. Hence, it was unnecessary to appoint a comnmittee to suggest subjects on which committees should be appointed. Much less was it necessary, to have such a committee to propose the subjects on which we should act, and what not. All knew what we had to consider. The whole constitution of the state was before us-before each and every member of the body-and each had the right and was bound to pass upon every proposition submittel. It miight be objected, if we went into commnittee of the whole, that we should be at sea, with no proposition to act upon. Mr. L. hadl anticipated this dilenmma; and had prepared and shouldi submit a proposition for dividing the body into committees. Any body could do this, and some other member might have done it for himself. He should offer his proposition, first by way of amendment to the pending resolution, and with the view then to move the reference of both to a committee of the whole. Mr. L. moved to strike out all of the word resolved in the original and insert: That committees consisting of five members each be appoint id to consider and report on the matters following respectively: 1 On the apportionment, election, tenure of office aud compensation of the Legislature. 2. Oa the organization, tenure of office and compensation of the Judiciary. 3. On the appointmeit or election of the Judiciary, and of all state officers whose duties and powers are not local, except the legislature, and of the tenure ot their office and compensation, except the legislature and judici iry. 4. On the appointment or election of all officers whose powers and dities are local, and their tenure of office and compensation. 5 On the powers to be vested in the State Legislature, and restrictions on the same, except as to public debt 6. On the public debt generally, and including restrictions on the powv-r of the Legislitur, in rtlation rhereto, and on public revenues, canals and internal improvements. 7 On legislation for local purposes, and on the powers of municipal corporations with reference to debt and taxation. 8 On banking business, and on incorporations generally. 9 On the elective franchise and the qualifications to vote and hold office. Mr. LOOMIS said these were the result of his best thoughts. He did not rise to discuss the several subjects; but rather to suggest that we had not better organize this formidable cotamittee, with these extraordinary powers. It was imprudent and unnecessary-for each member was entirely competent to suggest subjects for reference to commnittees-and it was fairer to have a vote on the proposition of each member in the first instance, than after this formidable committee had perhaps repudiated it. Mr. BROWN desiredl to express his obligations to the gentleman firom New York (Mr. JONES) for introducing this proposition. For although he did not concur with that gentleman in the propriety of its adoption, yet it would serve all the purposes it should serve-to call out discussion ani inquiry on the subject to which it related. He regarded the resolution as touching one of the most important, if not the most important subject that could come before the convention in this stage of its session-and he was not willing that it should go to a commnittee of 16 or 17 or of any other numbers, without having first passed through the ordeal of an examination and discussion here, that opinions might be elicited on all sides as to the subjects to be considered by this convention..He would here state that he was in a great measure indifferent as to the ultimate disposition that might be made of it-whether it went to the committee of the whole or the constitution, or whether all these propositions, after hearing he views of gentlemen here.should be sent to a committee. But he did desire most earnestly, and he deemed it essential to a fair and jtst and enlightened commencement of our labors, that this proposition should undergo discussion and examination. The proposition in effect was to refer it to a committee to report to us in what particulars the constitution should be, or was to be amended-to whatsubjects the convention should direct its labors. Hence, it was a proposition to refer to a commitcee one of the most important questions we had met to consider. He was aware, that when the report of this committee came in it would be subject to amend. ment. Hle was aware that every gentleman fa. mniliar with parliamentary proceedings, accustoimed to public speaking and feeling a confidence in himself, might rise and propose his a. 12 mendment. BUt if he did, he must en. counter the weight and influence of this corn. mittee in opposition. And members like him. sell, might feel a diffidence and reluctance in undertaking to overthrow a report (arrying with it the weighit which would be attached to it.Another consideration-he knew what it was for gentlemen taking a seat in a deliberative body for the first time, to rise and address itand to make a proposition. The weight of that feeling had oppressed and borne down many a man who from his experieice and ability was well calculated to enlighten and instruct his fellows. And he was not willing to plaee these gentlemen whom lie saw around him in a position of such disadvantage. He concurred, therefore, with the gentleman from Her. kimer, that this question should be referred to a committee of the whole. That was the appropriate place- for a free intevchange of opinionsthe place where alone every individua! cou.!l make his proposition and have it considered.Thlre they could not be put down, without being fairly considered and acted on. And if the fundamental law was to be overturned enti ely, and an entire new instrument Iramed-it was proper to know the views of each and all, in relation to every part of it. If a toition of it was to be maintained in its integrity, as it came to us from the wislom of the past, let us know what portion was to be maintained and what amended. He was unwilling to commit this very important question, in the outset (t' our deliberations, to a committee. He had his opinions i others had theirs. In his section of the state, public opinion had in icated clearly to what these changes should have reference. He might differ with enrtiemen from other sections on these points. If sJ, he desirel to hear cvery proposition for a:endment. Then, il' they were found to be so multifarious, so numerous, so conflictint, that the committee of the whole could reach no result, he should be willing that a committee should take all these propositions in charge, with all the light that had been thrown upon them, and with all the knowledge of the views of this convention that the discussion might elicit. It was impossible to conceal the fact from ourselves, that the two great parties into which the state was divi ted, had had some connection with the election of gentlemen to this body, an l with its organization. We could not I conceal from ourselves, or the public, the fact that one of these pa:ties was largely representel here, and the other not so largely. And though he was happy to state, and congratulated hin. self that there was very little of that party spirit here on wlich men honestly diviled elsewhere -that there was none that was likely to disturb the goo nature and harmony with which we had begun our deliberations-yet it was due to the minority, to our own character, to the success of our labors-that in ell our deliberations, and in all the steps we took at the outset-we should have reference to the rights of the mino. rity. An! he desire l to put this vital and important matter in a position whe.e gent'emen who migrht not appear to be on the side where the strenglth was, an opportunity to be heard fully and fairly anxwithout any kin I of embarrassaeat whatever. To look at tffs matter a little further. Suppose this committee shoulU undertake to say that our judicial system needed no amendment? This, he was aware, was a very extraordinary supposition. For he suppo. sed a sense of the necessity of amenJlnent in that particular was universal. But suppose such should be the report of the colimiltee?We should then have to encounter the weight of their report, to demonstrate its folly and injus. tice But supposing on the question of suffrage, where there was no such unanimity of opinion — were the committee to cone in here with a re. port and suppress that question entire!3? By no means. He desired earnestly that it shculd not be so; but that all these propositions should come up here-that all of whatever party or profession or catling, however unused to public speaking or parliamientary rules, might have a fill and fair opportunity to make any and every suggestion in regard to amendments of the fundamental law. He concurred therefore, with the gentleman from Herkimer, that if gentle. men had any propositions to make here, they should be at liberty to make them-make them now, during this discussion-tor he must say for one, that if the majority of this body shoull be found against him on thequestion of referring this matter to the committee of the whole, he should feel it to be his duty to ask the house to instruct the select committee as to their report. This would give all an opportunity to do what they could do in committee of tile whole.-But he trusted gentlemen would not refuse the opportunity of having this matter considered in com. n-ittee of the wvhole. In all legislative bodlies as a general rule all bills went to a committee of the whole. In the House of Representatives, reve-nue bills, ahtl those affecting the Union at large, all took that direction-that they might be fully and fairly considlered by every member. And having come here to ascertain what altera. tions siould be made in the organic law, he asked if that was not a subject of as great mag. nilude anl importance as the message of a Go. vernor or a Presidlent, or a revenue bill? Could any deliberative body have befoie it a sutject of greater magnitude to posterity or the living, than that which engaged our deliberations today? Before taking a stf p which might em. barrass the inquiry, we should proceed with lesitation and caution. IHe had, therefore, in imitation of the gentleman fiom Herkim;er, be. fore lie left his room this nmorning, (drawn up some propositions which he would submit witll the view of their being referred, with the other series, to a committee of the whole. If, how. ever, the House should refuse that reference, lie should then move them, by way of instructions, to the select committee. Ile did not regar 1 them as embracing all the subjects which should be matters of reference; but he offerel them rather as the nucleus for other propositions from other quarters. Mr. B. sent up the following:1. Reso've', Thai so mlch of the Constitultionas re. ltes t, the filnances (itf the st: e, aind thle power o1 tlhe Iegisl itllre to create dcll( s tlid t, loilln hie credtit of th" sitct, he referred to a committe, to take ilio cilsidcra;tio, n aiind report t at amelldnililts, if uny aire nece^,ary to tie mtade in respet t theml. 2 Tlht so tiuch as relates to tle po.'er of the Le. eislaiiire to appropriate the public Imoneys or pro:erty for private or local purposes, aud for creutiieg, cuutiuu. 13 mtn, altering or renewing any body, politic or corpor- what was the consequence? Why in little more ac;n, t, prescrite tle pwers, Icrivilcges, drltiesard than than two months all its labors were ended, ohligatlIl, s it?' slC i tI(hlies, pol0tic or corporate, (or of the lnme ers anti stockholders thereof, he relerred to and the state ha l a new constitution. Ite (lid a cor,!nittee to t;ke into csideratiol, &c not doubt if this resolution shouid be adopted, 3 i h:t so nmu'n;s r-l:tes to the right of suffrage, a committee woull be chosen, not to sav how and tlhe q alitfuiatiois of person>s to beeiecled too.fice.. * eand t he aliitIS of persou tobeectedtoofice,theconstitution shall be amenled-no' atall-.but 4. 1h1t s.1, mrh 1s relItes to the jIndirlil deairt- merely for the purpose of suggestitr hoiw many meit, 1i, minl er of aplliltin or electing ji dinto coniliittee of ahle gentlemai hassome proposition to offer-he the wholt. for the purpose, for the moment they apprehenlded the discussion would be endless.- got into the committee,. the entire subject would Gentlemen might recall tomind t ecourseadopted be opened-they would get fifty different propoby the convention which framed the federal con- sitions, and no one could predict-not the wisest stitution. That convention met in the month ofl amongst them-whlere it would en'l. May 1797, an:l the first proposition was a plan Mr. JONES desired very briefly to state the of a constitution by Mmr. E. Randloph. On the reasons which induced him to offer his propoei. same day Mr. Pincikney presented his plait of a tion. He dil not offer it without some consul. constitution. Mr. Patterson of New Jersey al- tation with members of this convention-a conso prtpose.l another; an I shortly after Mr. Alex- sultation which had inducel him to chanre an ler Hamilton submitted his plan. These se. somewhat its form. As originally prepared, it veral propositions were referrel to the commit grave to the committee a greater scope of power tee of' tlte while, as it was now proposed that than would be conferred by the resolution in its these subjects sItall be refrrred. The firsttaken present shape. His original intention was, that up was the plan of Mr. Ranlolph, anl the co?- the committee should report to the convention. vention entetred upon its discussion, section by not only the best pra(ticable mole of procee.ling section ani I clause by clause, anl on the.1st of to the revision of the constitution, but also Auiust, without any prog.ress having been made, I wheth,2r in the opinion of the committee, it was the whole matter was referrel to a special com- demanled by the popular wi!l, an l would best mnittee. Two or three days subsequently, that suhserveathe interests of the state, to present to committee male iheir report n.l it was rot until the people an entire new constitution as a whlile, that report was presented tihat any progress was or whether the public interests demandel that male. lie was very happy to see the harmony they shoul( submittothe peopleonly suchamendmanifestei here, anrl the disposition to go at ments a* shoul.I be made to the presentconstitu. once anri directly to the discharge of the impor. tion. The resolution in this form, le submritte., tant dtties of the conventionl. The course recom. among others, to a sentleman from Onondaga, mendedl by the gentleman fiom New-York (Mr. who thought the resolution in that shape would ~J,s) was the couaseof'the coaveatio. of1anl give rise to a premature discussion, and thathe, 14 convention in its early stages would not be so competent to decide whether a new constitution should be presented to the people, or amendments merely, as at a subsequent period. He adopted the suggestion of the gentleman and modified his resolution so as to confine it simply to an instruction to the committee to report what in their opinion was the best practicable mode of proceeding to the revision of the constitution. The gentleman from Herkimer (Mr. LooMIs,) who had given his views to the convention with great ability and great fairness-both of which qualities were characteristics of that gentleman -had stated that he (Mr. JONES) was probably influenced in offering his resolution by the consideration that a similar course had been adopted by the convention of 1821. That was so. He found, on looking at the proceedings of the convention of 1821-(a convention whose proceedings he hoped this convention would follow as far as it could-a convention whose proceedings were marked by that moderation and wisdom which were worthy of imitation by this convention, notwithstanding it had greater experience by more than twenty years)-that one of its most distinguished members (Mr. Rufus King) presented a resolution similar in form to that which he had offered; and he found that it was, unanimously adopted, it having the general concurrence of the members of that convention. The number of the committee proposed in the resolution of 1821 was 13, instead of 16 as now proposed: but in a discussion which immediately followed as to the mode by which the committee should be appointed, he found that Col. Young, of Saratoga, had changed his views somewhat as to the manner in which the convention should commnence its business, and seemed to be of the opinion now expressed by the gentleman from Herkimer, that it was best to refer the whole subject to the committee of the whole in the first place, instead of a select committee. Gen. Root, as had been stated by the gentleman fiom Herkimer, concurred in the views of Col. Young. These views however were met by Mr. King. It did not appear from the book from which he obtained his information, that any other gentlemen spoke than those three, Gen. Root, Col. Young and Mr. King; for immediately after the two former had spoken in favor of a reconsideration, and the latter against it, the question was taken and lost, the vote in the affirmative not being large enough even to cause it to be stated. Probably the motion was lost by a large vote, as the original proposition was carried unanimously. He found further on looking at the proceedings of the convention of 1821, that after the adoption of the resolution to which he had referred, the committee of 13 was appointed, and on the afternoon of Friday, the committee reported a plan for the reference of the different portions of the constitution to appropriate committees. The President named those committees on Saturday, and on Monday Gen. Tallmadge presented a report from one of them, and the next day Gen. Root a report from another. These facts showed how admirable the plan was to expedite the business of the convention, for although the resolution was not offered until Thursday, the different portions were referred to the respective committees, and they laid their views beiore the convention on the following Monday and Tuesday, and the convention at once proceeded with the consideration of the subject presented to it by Gen. Tallmadge. This seemed to be a practical mode of doing business, and he thought the convention could scarcely follow a more wise or more judicious precedent.Respecting the number which he proposed to constitute the committee, he found that there was not entire unanimity of opinion. The gentleman from Herkimer seemed to think, in the first place, that the committee was too large, and then that it was too small. On reflection he (Mlr. JONES) trusted the gentleman fiom Herkimer would find that he was right in neither position. He held the opinion that the committee was neither too large nor too small, if it were designed that it should report to the convention whether any and what part of the constitution should be amended, and what left untouched.If such were to be its scope, which he did not admit, certainly the gentleman from Herkimer would concur with him, that the committee was not too large. A commi tee of two from each senatorial district would embody the views of the constituents they represent, and it seemed to him that their report would be but the echo of the popular will on this subject. Put if it was designed that the conmittee should merely report-and such was his intention-what parts of the constitution should be referred to committees forexamination and consideration, the committee did not even in that case appear to him to be too large. But suppose they followed the gentleman's advice, and went into committee of the whole, what would they have then?Why, a set of resolutions offered by the gentleman from Herkimer, a somewhat different set from the gentleman from Orange, and a proposition from himself, differing somewhat from each of the others; and he doubted not that half the members of the Convention had their views also as to what portions of the constitution re. quired amendment. Now, his resolution contemplated the concentration of the views of the members of the Convention, who would con verse with the members of the committee, whose report would thus be made to embody the concentrated sentiment of the Convention. But the gentleman from Orange (Mr. BROWN,) had said that a different course was taken in congress, and in the state legislature, with the messages of the President and the Governor, and that both had a reference in the first instance to the committee of the whole. This undoubtedly was so; but he ventured to suggest to the gentleman from Orange the difference between the two cases. The object in referring tlhe messages of the President and the Governor was not to amend those instruments, but to discuss tlem; and where could there be a more appropriate place for discussion than in committee of the whole? Experience bore out the truth of this position, for at the last session of the legislature, though in one of the first weeks of the session, the message of the Governor was referred to the committee of the whole, it did not come out until there were but some two or three weeks of the session remaining. It underwent during a session of four months an elaborate and prolonged discussion. What was the object of the gentleman from Orange in proposing to give the 15 constitution the same reference? Although the stituted by order of the House, for consider. object might be, in some measure, to discuss the ation, in a regular and parliamentary manner. various projects and amendments, yet the main They might safely assume in this as in most object would be to amend rather than to discuss. similar cases, that parliamentary usage had When the special committee shall have given some significance and utility; and he apprethe subject a full, fair, and free examination, hended, if gentlemen now entertained doubts on and reported thereon, their report would be the subject, that before the end of the session sent to the committee of the whole Convention, they would be abundantly satisfied that the cusand then there would be abundant room for tom was a wise and appropriate one. The first discussion, if gentlemen desired discussion.- thing they ought to do, in order to expedite buWith regard to the proposition of the gentle. siness, and to get at an intelligent and satisfacman from Orange, if his resolution should be tory result, was to refer all the matters upon adopted, to instruct the committee to report the which they were to act, to appropriate commitparticular propositions for reference, Mr. J. tees; and in order to do that, it was a matter of trusted it would be so guarded as not to instruct the first importance that they should have an acthe committee to report any particular gentle. curate, careful, and considerate classification of man's project, but that the committees would be the subject matters. If they commenced left to the exercise of their own judgment to re- business with an inadequate or imperfect port such plans as they might deem to be the best classification, they would find themselves and the wisest. wandering through that business to the end of Mr. LOOMIS,with a view of testing the sense the session. It would be better that they should of the convention on this question, proposed to know at the outset what would be proposed for have it taken in convention directly, as between their consideration. They had better go into the proposition for a committee and the proposi- committee of the whole, where every gentleman tion to refer the several subjects to different in the Convention might present any proposition committees. He had moved his proposition as he might have to offer, or submit any mode of an amendment to that of the gentleman from classification; and then, after these suggestions New-York, and he desired that the question had been freely made for a few hours or a day should be taken on the first branch of his pro- or two, refer them to a select committee to arposition, leaving the rest to be decided upon af- range and put ina systematic form. This course terwards. was recommened to them by the facility it. Mr. WILLARD thought the discussion into would afford in the transaction of their business. which they had been drawn, unprofitable, if not It would give a full and complete clarsification irrelevant. It certainly did not follow in the of their business, andwouldenable thePresident, wake of the resolution before the Convention. when he came to form the committees, to disHe felt desirous to economise the time and the tribute them in such a manner as to submit to duties of the Convention; and to avoid random their consideration all the subjects on which or profitless debate. He preterred the proposi- they should be called upon to act. There was tion of the gentleman from New York (Mr. a still more important point of view in which JONES) as calculated to facilitate the businessof this question should be considered; and that the Convention, and to lead soonest to the direct was that the action of this committee would be consideration of specific subjects. He hoped at to a considerable extent, in practice, restrictive least that the question would be brought at once of the subjects for the consideration of this bodyto a vote, and the matter disposed of in some not directly, not necessarily in terms, but in its shape. inevitable effect. Suppose in that committee Mr. WHITE sentup the following substitute: there were a majority composed of those indi. Resolved, That a committee be appointed to take viduals who thought a particular proposition into consideration and report the manner in which it is was not of sufficient importance, or sufficiently expedient to proceed with the business of this Conven-esirable t if thm in risin a mmit tion, in order that such alterations in and amendments, to ustify them raising a commi to the Constitution may be made, as the rights of the tee to consider it, or that it was not embraced people demand. in the classification which they might adopt: Mr. TILDEN was aware that there would they would have nine and probably seventeen naturally be a predisposition in this body to fol- of the most influential members of this body low the course marked out by his colleague(Mr. committed to the opinion that the subject ought JONES). That course had the sanction of the not to be considered. From what litte experi precedent adopted in a previous Convention,and ence he had had in parliamentary bodies, he it appeared extremely plausible too, in the pros. should be led to think that any proposition in pect it held out of proceeding to the subject which his constituents were interested, would matter of their deliberations without useless lose 25 per cent at least of its chance of being discussion. Nevertheless, in its effects upon considered, if that committee should form such the course of the business of that body, and on an unfavorable judgment in relation to it; and the result of their deliberations, it was, in his yet here, without any judgment, or considerajudgment, a question of the highest importance tion,-without any suggestion of the various for them to settle correctly. The usual and par- propositions on which they might be prepared liamentary course in respect to the Governor or to act, they might by the adoption of such a rePresident's message was to refer it to the corm solution submit the whole subject to the initia. mittee of the whole. For what purpose? Not tory power of a committee composed of some exclusively nor generally, as his colleague seem- 17 members. His friend and colleague from ed to suppose, for the purpose of a rambling New.York (Mr. JONES) had told them that as discussion, but for the purpose of distributing the proposition was originally drawn, it was its several parts to appropriate committees con. intended that the committee should consider and 16 report upon what subjects it was expedient for of restriction which gentlemen might desire to the convention to act, but that on consultation offer, though it were somewhat questionable with other gentlemen he had modified his reso. if gentlemen were then prepared to make tLeir lution by striking out that part of it. His (Mr. propositions. In every respect, he Ihcught it TILDEN'S) objection to the form in whlich it would be profitable to spend1 a few days at the now stands, was that although it did not in commencemeit of the session in an examination terms, it did in substance, in a large degree, of' propositions that might be made, and that it have the same effect; and if his friend was dis. would save time hereafter. posed-Mr. S. did not believe he was-to limit Befbre he sat down he ought to correct an erthe range of tile action and discussion of this ror into which his colleague ha:l fallen respect. body, hle would better accomplish his object by ing the course pursued in the legislature oo i the this resolution, than by any other form regular. Governor's message. It was true, the message ly proposed. There was great reason to fear was referred to the committee of the whole, and that the effect of thecourse of proceeding would that some parts were not taken out of commit. be, to somie extent at least, to organ ze a supe- tee of the whole until nearly the close of tlhe rior body in the bosom of this convention, and session; but all he material parts on which if they had ever s en the effect of the united and discussion and final action were had, were taken concerted action of 10 or 20 men, in a body of from the committee, lie should think, within the this size, they could julge of the effect that first month of the session. In that case lie was might be reasonably expected to result. It averse, as he was now, to going into a general might be, unless the good sense and firmness of discvssion in that comm:tkte. He thought it this body should counteract it, the organization would be wiser to refer originally, and to disani application of'the caucus system to their cuss the specific propositions. He thought now deliberations. It was for these reasons that he that after they had had discussion enough to as opposed to it. He came here believing enable them to classify their propositions, it that they should have the widest latitude of con. would be wiser to refer them to special cornmitsi.leration and proposition. Whenever twenty tees, than to go into a general discussion; but members of this convention thought a pro. for the purpose of an accurate, comprehensive position should be adopted, in his judgment classification, he thought they should, for a there should be a committee to whom that short periol, receive propositions fiom various proposition shall be referred, an.l through quarters. There was a stronger reason now whom it might be presented on fair and equal than in the case of the Governor's message.terms with every other propositi,n that should There all the subjects on which the legislature be subrnittel to their consideration. Take a was to act. were contained in the document, and possible case of an omission in the classificution it was but briel work to analyze, separate, and of subjects. There were a considerable num. discuss its respective parts. But here, there ber of persons who supposed that the rights of would be many which were not found in the property of half the community were not suffi. Constitution at all-lfr instance, the proposition ciently protected by the existing laws-who in regard to state debt. It was important there. think that the same objects which by a refined fore that each member should have an opportu. and conmplicated system of artificial laws are nity to offer subjects (n which the Convention secured to the few who are wealthy enough-to should act; if then, there was any difficulty in those who are able to pay the price-should be coming to a definite conclusion, they could pass given as a free and common right and withoutI a resolution referring all the propositions to a price to every member of the community,-who select committee, or it in conimittee,a motion to think that the property of married women, in- rise and report could l)e made. and tile purpose Stead of being secured by a system of trusts, of gentlemen might be accomllishe by refusing should be acconplishe.l by the ordinary laws, leave to sit again. A committee so formed, remedies and securities. Now suppose that in would be acquainted with the disposition of tl e the organiziticn of these committees, there members of the Convention, and would he able should bp no one to which a question of this to make a classification which would promote kind could be appropriately referred? Did they a prompt, energetic and intelligent despatch of suppose that a proposition made to the conven. business. tion on that subject would stand an even chance Mr. SWACKHAMER inquired the state of as if presented at the organization of the con- I the question? vention? lie apprehended not. The PRESIDENT stated the question to be One word as to this dispatch of business. It on Mr. LooMIs' substitute for the original rcso. seemed to him that if they formed a committee lution. as was proposed, in the first instance, that Mr. SWACKHAMER then remarked that the committee would have to bring its report into question of reference did not come up under this the Convention, and the question would then m tion-and to prevent this random discussion arise on their report, whether it should be of the whole subject, he now moved that the amen lel. Any gentleman who had a proposi. original resolution,together with the two amend. tion to make which he did not deem fairly in- ments. be referred to a committee of' the whole cluded in tile classification, woul then offer it, on the constitution. This would present thedis. or some amendment which would provide for tinct question of reference. it, as an amendment to the report, and they Mr. TAYLOR said that, having been consul. might have then as long a discussion as if they ted by the gentleman from New-York (Mr. allowed free latitude for a day or two, without Jones), as to the original resolution, it was due being committed to any particular course of to himselfto state his relationship, ifany, to it action. There might also be some propositions The resolution was submitted to him. He had 17 not reflected much on the subject; but he knew ference to the committee of 17. And yet, he the course taken in the Convention of '21.- was in favor of the appointment of that cor Deeming that course suitable and proper, and mittee. To make himself intelligible, it might that the action of the committee would be very be important to look at the two propositions, limited, he suggested some alterations, striking and see in whatconsisted the distinctive characout all that would be likely to lead to debate, ter of each. The first was an open, general and presenting the simple proposition contained proposition, that it be referred to a committee, in the resolution. Mr. T. was aware of the to lay before the Convention a plan of opera. practice in Congress and here, of going into tions. The counter proposition was, that the committee on the Executive message, and then body itself, in its collective capucity, do now distributing it among the appropriate standing proceed to the classification of subjects, and the committees. But we had no such committees. appointment of the committees to which these And his idea was, that we should appoint a particular subjects should be referred. What committee to designate the various committees would be the proper course of operations under to which different subjects might be referred.- these two modes of proceeding? He should in. This would take but a short time; and when fer, if this matter were referred to a committee these committees had been ordered, then, if the of 16, as proposed by one of his colleagues, and Convention were disposed to go into committee modified by another, that it would become them of the whole on the Constitution, and distribute to determine whether the Constitution should its various parts among these committees, the be divided, classified, and referred to distinct proceeding would be perfectly proper, and anal. committees, or whether propositions should be ogous to the usage in legislative bodies. If gen- discussed before the house in committee of the tlemen desired to go into committee, and to pre. whole, in the first instance-or whether a plan sent their views early on the various subjects of might be adopted by which both these modes of constitutional reform, he had no sort of objec-. proceeding would be introducedand the advanta. tion to it. On the contrary, he was for the broad- ges of each secured. Suppose this committee est latitude of debate. He would not curtail should come before the house with a classificait now. He thought, however, a committee of tion according to their views. It would cer. eight would be sufficiently large to suggest what tainly be competent for us to vary that classificommittees should be appointed. If these should cation, as might strike the good sense of the be found afterwards not to embrace all the sub- convention. It would be competent also for any jects that might be brought up for reference-or member who conceived that classification to be rather, if none of them should be deemed ap- incomplete or indefinite, to bring forward a mopropriate-it would at any time be competent dification of it. If, for instance, any member and proper to raise a select committee. He should desire to abolish the property qualifica. would however restrict this committee, after the tion for voting or holding office, in all cases-or remarks that had been made, to the simple busi. any other of the various amendments that had ness of designating the committees, that in their been agitated-it would be competent for any judgment should be appointed; and then the re. member to bring forward such a proposition, ference of different parts of the Constitution to and move its reference to some appropriate com. these committees, would be a matter proper for mittee. It seemed to him that a committee consideration in committee of the whole. raised to chalk out a course of proceeding, Mr. O'CONOR had listened attentively to might safely, and in all probability would, not all that had been said pro and con in regard to only secure to us the advantage of commit. this question of reference; and though unable tees, and a proper rule of order, in dis. to bring to his aid, in forming a judgment on it, posing of the main subjects of referenceany amount of parliamentary experience, or but might provide generally for a reference of knowledge of parliamentary law, yet he felt, as subjects falling under any general classification; a member of that body-the question having and a disposition once made of such a subject been treated as one of some importance-bound would give a construction to that classification, to express his views on it. They might be in which would govern thereafter. Or in case vesome respect different from those expressed by ry important propositions were presented, they any one gentleman, though perhaps not essen. might be discussed in committee before being tially in conflict with a true view of the whole referred-and thus reduce the duty of a commit. argument, as presented on all sides. He re- tee to a mechanical duty-as, it secured to him, garded this proposition as analogous to that first the duties of committees generally should be. important proposition, connected with our or. Now. whilst the first proposition aimed directly ganization, with which we commenced this ses- at laying before us a sort of programme of prosion-the subject of the rules of order. We had ceeding-the amendment was open to this oba vast subject spread before us. How to ap. jection, that under it an individual member proach it, was the question. To take a view of would execute the duty which would be entrustthe whole of it at once, was impossible. Where ed to the deliberate examination of a number of we should commence. and how we should pro- minds-thus making a classification for him. gress, was the question now before us-what self, according to his own views. Certainly we mode should be adopted to guide our judgments should much more surely arrive at a safe and satas to the place where we should begin, and the isfactory classification, by having that important manner in which we should proceed in travers. subject carefully considered by a number of ing all this vast subject. Now, in relation to minds in advance. And we should have prothe appointment of committees, Mr. O'C. had gressed very far in our work, when we should entertained precisely the opinions he had heard have secured the opinion of five or six or any expressed here by gentlemen opposed to the re. othernumber of experienced gentlemenin favor of 2 18 a particular classification. For he should assume, aa:l at this early stage of the session, all should asume, th it every gentleman would be influenced by gooJ motives and by an honest desire so to classify subjects that they would come up in a maaner convenient for discussion, and not in a manner calculated to embarrass. On the other hand the proposition of the gentleman from Herkimer (Mr. Loomis) contemplated that we should at once-now-proceed to make a classification, as a whole-the whole body acting on it at the outset. That would be attended with great inconvenience. We should have a thousand conflicting opinions on the subject; it would be as difficult as it would be to establish rules of order in committee. Therefore tho' entertaining generally the views of the gentleman from Herkimer that individual opinions on any of the great questions before us ought not to be forestalled by the dictation of any committee, or by the weight attached to their report-still he thought, on this mere question as to the order of proceeding, a great deal i ould be gained by referring it to a committee-a smaller committee, however, than that proposed-so that it might be brought in a matured shape before the body and deliberately considered. He would not have the opinions of any individual forestalled by the ieport of a large committee. He thought it extremely desirable also, that after the appointment of the committees, under the classification that should be adopted, that each member should have the opportunity of presenting his proposition or amendment, and advocating it in the house, before even a small committee shall have presented another involving a negation of it. He was not at all apprehensive that the action of the proposed committee, whether of 17 or of 8, would have the effect to overawe members-nor did he believe that the committee would become so wedded to their own classification, as to band themselves into a party 'o sustain it. He preferred, decidedly, in order that business might be brought regularly before us, that there should be a committee to chalk out a plan of proceedings, under the original resolution. When that plan should be presented, the body could vary it, if deemed defective. He was prepared to move to vary any pa t of it that did not seem calculated to bring forward the reforms which his constituents desired. After discussing their report, it seemed to him we could get fairly at work on the matters before us-not on a subject of mere form, a matter of mere classification, but on distinct, untechnical propositions, touching the distinctive reforms which members might feel instructed to present. Mr. HOFFMAN expressed his obligations to the gentleman from New-York (Mr. Jones) for bringing this question before the Conventioncalculated, as it was, to bring the minds of members distinctly to the question, in what manner we could best proceed to cut up, to dissect, classify and arrange the subjects on which we were to act. But he was more indebted to his friend from Kings (Mr. Swackhamer,) who had moved, as Mr. H, thought, the proper reference of the subject. He had no great claim to make to legislative experience. But he should be wanting in duty to the Convention, and to his own conscience, if he did not say, that on a question like this; he preferred the committee of the whole, because it left to us every other mode that might be suggested.Whilst we could lose nothing by it, we gained by it all that could be gained by a special commiittee. We were engaged in a great labor-and when he recollected that in all conflicts for freedom, the grand committee-the committee of the whole-had been the instrument by which victory had been achieved, he could'not sit here and leave his friend unsupported. Submit this question to a committee, and they would be in the condition in which we were now-with the Constitution before us, and the existing govern. ment in its complicated workings. Refer it to a committee of the whole, and they would have the same matter before them. Was it not supposable that the entire Convention might come to wiser and better conclusions than any committee? The mover of the resolution very properly admitted that the select committee would not rely entirely upon their own intelligence, but consult other members of the Convention than their own number. And yet, he assigned as a reason for not going into cymmittee of the whole, that every member would be at liberty to present his own project of distribution. How else were the select committee to get at the views of members? Were they to travel round from room to room and collect them? Or were members to come before the select committee, sitting in their room, and propose their plans? Could any thing be more disorderly than such a proceeding as this? In committee of the whole, members could not only submit their propositions, but could speak to them and defend them. And if the select committee were to be aided at all by the sugges. tions of individual members, it could only be done by debate in committee of the whole. He demurred to the idea that we were to facilitate the dispatch of business by this short cut. But all k ew that before this resolution would be taken from tite table and referred, instruction upon instruction might be moved and a debate had upon each. And so when the report came in, amendment upon amendment might be proposed and debated-and it was not to be supposed that at this early stage of the session, the previous question would be very freely resorted to. If dispatch was the object, the end would be best attained in committee of the whole. A day or two spent in committee, would in his judgment enable members to show on what subjects they desired committees. But if it should so happen that there should be no concentration of views, the matter could then be taken from the committee of the whole, with entire satisfaction to all, and then a select committee would have heard enough to enable them to make such a partition of the subject as to be generally acceptable. He had no fears of an interminable debate in committee on the merits of various important propositions. But it was better that occasional departures firom the strict rule of order should occur, than that gentlemen nndisciplined to this species of deliberation sho'd be trammelled by calls to order. They would injure nobody, might elicit useful truths, and in no other way could all have an opportunity of participating in the settlement of this important 19 question. Nor had he any fears of any wrang- committee would find the gentleman from Her. ling personalities in committee, or any departure kimer asleep, if they had any such expectation. from the decorum that belonged to the body. He was ever too wide awake. True, many of us had been actors in the past. But Mr. HOFFMAN said he had never heard of that action could not be recalled. Grod or evil, such a proposition as that referred to by the it had gone forever. We were called here to gentleman from Otsego (Mr. CHATFIELD). He make a constitution, not for the three millions understood it to be a question of mere distribu now on the stage, butf or the millions who tion. were to succeed them. This consideration ought Mr. CHATFIELD had heard no gentleman to control any disposition here to make obser- make such a proposition, but that appeared to vations on each other, and to induce us to en. be the result at which they seemed to be coming. gage heart and hand in framing the best consti- Now he understood it to be a proposition to take tution in our power for the future. Commenc- up the constitution, and to appropriate its parts ing with that great instrument of public freedom and the amendments that were necessary to the committee of the whole,he trusted we should special committees. Beyond that the commitsucceed in attaining that end. tee could not go;-and he asked if there could Mr. CAMBRELENG regarded this asa mere be any danger of that committee obtaining a question of time and the order of business. His controlling influence in this body out of such a fi'iend from Herkimer must be familiar enough trust? He should be glad if gentlemen would with the usage which prevailed in congress, to point out to him where the danger lay, and understand the necessity of a preliminary en- where it was to be looked for. The committee quiry —and how these things were done in every would report no opinions. Their report would deliberative body. There was no caucus, usu- come simply in the form of resolutions; the ally, or a select committee to arrange the matter subject then would be referred to the commitof referring a message —but a few prominent tees; and if there should be any unappropriated men got together and arranged the order of bu- subject, it would be very easy to have an apsiness. They went into committee, and some propriate reference. He thought the adoption gentlemen previously designated, presented the of the resolution would facilitate business, resolutions of reference. The object of this for if it were disposed of now and the commitmotion of the gentleman from New-York was to tee appointed, they would probably report have an inlormal committee to suggest the to-morrow, and then the subjects could standing committees, as it were of this body — be sent to the various committees to disuch as all legislative bodies had. No princi- gest plans for the convention to act upon.ple was involved in it. If any member had ex- But if the other course should be pursued, they pressed a desire or a design to suppress any would find themselves afloat on a wide sea, with. proposition whichany memberdesired topresent, out helm or compass. They might debate the th:at woul I present a different question. But all constitution for a month, and not advance their knew that no such design was entertained by business one whit. any member here. The object was to get a Mr. JONES read a substitute which he had commnittee to propose the order of business- prepared for his resolution. that we might take the course pursued by every Mr. SWACKHAMER objected to it as out legislative body throughout the world, in dis. of order. secting the message of a governor or president. Mr. JONES, at the solicitation of others, Go into oommittee now, and we should have 40 withdrew it. different propositions and interminable confu- Mr. TILDEN explained the positions he had sion-and at the end of two weeks, we should assumed, as they did not appear to have been probably come out of committee with all these understood by the gentleman from Otsego. He conflicting propositions undecided-and should said he was not in favor of going into commithave to refer the whole subject to a select com- tee of the whole for the purpose of a general mittee, precisely as it was proposed to do now. discussion, but for the purpose of giving to the Mr. HOFFMAN confessed to having taken 111 members of the Convention as fair a chance part in the labor of dissecting a message-but to present their propositions as 17-12-ths of it. lie had never had any thing to do with any in- Mr. SHEPHERD asked his colleague to give formal conference out of doors, in relation to it. way for a motion to adjourn. Mr. CHATFIELD thought the question was Mr. TILDEN said he had done. misconceived. Gentlemen seemed to have un- Mr. CHATFIELD askel leave of absence derstood that while referring this matter to a for Mr. NELSON of Otsego. for one week, un. committee of 17 to report a projet forthe house, avoidable business having called him home.they were referring it to the committee to report Leave was granted. a constitution, perhaps one already prepared, Mr. SHEPHERD renewed his motion, and which was to be smuggled through the house, the Convention adjourned to 11 o'clock to-morwithout any body being allowed to know any I row morning. thing about it. Now he did not believe the 20 FRIDAY, JUNE 5. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. BATES. EXPENSES OF THE JUDICIARY. Mr. KIRKLAND, fiom the select committee of 8, in relakion to the expenses of Judiciary proceedings, submitted the following resolutions:COUNTY, MAYOR'S AND RECORDER'S COURTS. Resolved, That the Secretaries of the Convention be directed to address letters to the Cou ity Clerk of each County in the State, requiring an immediate aiswer to the following questions:1. How many terms of the County Courts of your County were held, and for how many days did said courts sit during the year 1845? 2. How many civil causes were on the calendars at said termsfor trial, how many were tried; and what was the aggregate amount of verdicts therein? 3. How many of said causes were on appeal from Justice's CouIts; and in cases ot appeal, in which verdicts were rendered, state in each case the amount of the recovery for debt or damages before the justice, and the amount of the verdict in the county court? 4. How many causes arising on certiorari were on the calendars at said terms? How many judgments were recovered? How many affirmed? 5. What was the am(.unt allowed during said year to the Judges ef the county courts and common pleas, for their fees or salaries as compensation for travel and attendance at said courts; and what for travel and attendance at the courts of oyer and terniner? 6. What amount was allowed, and chargeable to the county for fees, during said year, in said county courts, of grand jurors, of petit jurors, of sheriffs and constables, ol crier, of county clerk, for services in said courts, stating each separately? Resolved, That the secretaries address similar letters to the clerks of the several mayor's and recorder's courts in this state, except the recorders's court of the city and county of New York, asking for similar information, so far as applicable to their courts. CIRCUIT COURTS, &C. Resolved, That the secretaries, in their said letters to the county clerks, and also in a letter to be addressed by them to the clerk of the circuit court in and for the city and county ol New-York, request answers to the following questions:1. How many terms of the circuit court were held in your county during the year 1845, and for how many days did said terms continue? 2. How many civil causes were on the calendars at said terms; how many.were tried; what was the aggregate amount of verdicts rendered at each term? 3. What amount was allowed for fees at. said terms, ot grand jurors, of petit jurors, of sheriffs and constables, of crier, stating each separately? Resolved, That the Comptroller be requested to prepare for the use of the convention a statement showing the amount of salary or c:)mpensation paid or accrued during the year 1845, to the chancellor, the vice-chancellor, the assistant vice-chancellor, the justices of the supreme court, the circuit judges, the state reporters. the register, including clerk hire and other expenses allowed to him, the assistant register, including clerk hire and other expenses;allowed to him, the cleeks in chancery, the chlncellor's clerk, the clerks of the supreme court, includ ng clerk hire and other expenses allowed to them, the criers and constables attending the supreme court, the sergeant-at-arms of the court of chancery, the members of the court for the correction of errors, its officers and attendants, and all other charges or expenses during said year paid by the state, or incurred and chargeable to tle state, for the court for the correction of errors, the court of chancery, the suprene court and the circuit courts. Resolved, That the secretaries of the convention be dircct(d to address a letter to the Vice Chancellors, the assistant Vi(e Chancellor, each of the Circuit Judges and Stiprame ate into siligle districts for the election of nmembers of the Sena.e and Assembly. A REGISTRY, &c. Mr. HARRISON ollered the following resolution: Rlsolved, That the committee on the elective fran. c ise &c enjutire into the expediency oftsotamenditn the cos! itutiol;as to secure to the people of this State, an nlllllili registry of thie namtes ol all legal voters previotis to an c;ctioni; and further inquire into the expedtiency of so amending the cois-titution, that cinzens from other states, andl every person heieaf cr naturalized, shall reside one year in the state after nttlural z;tion, before he shall be permitted to exercise the right of suffrage. Mr. HUNT moved to strike out ths v ori; "' persons hereafter naturalized." Mr. WARD, while not disposed to express any opinion in advance on any of these propo. sitions, was desirous to hear the propositions which gentlemen might have to offer, that they might oo to the appropriate committee. They were not then settling principles, and could not be conpromised by any proposition that they might refer. He hoped therefore that every gentleman might be permitted to submit his proposition in his own words, that they might all know what was desired. Mr. O'CONOR did not like the precise shape in which that proposition was about to be sent to a committee. The resolution, if it should be adopted, would to a certain extent be an expression of the sense of the Convention that it was expedient to enquire whether we ought to impose a year's residence within this state after admission to the right of citizenship, of persons who may be admnittLed by the ordinary process of naturalization. Now he would avoid any expression of the sense of the Convention upon a sttbject so important as that, before the matter shall have been, to some extent, debated before this body; and at the same time, he had no desire to prevent, nor should any gentleman desire to prevent, any subject of this kind, though it may have but a single advocate on this floor, being presented and considered. In this view of the nma Iter, to avoid the scruples that arose in his mind, he moved that the resolution be referred to the committee on thle elective franchise. After some explanations by Mr. SHEPARD and Mr. PATTERSON, Mr. SIMMONS said they could not disguise the fact from themselves, that there were many worthy and respectable people who held different opinions on this subject; and as they recog. nized the right of petition, they should also recognize the right of resolution in a convention assembled as they were. They could not expect petitions to flow in very fast, perhaps not at all; it might be very proper, therefore, to adopt the suggestion of the gentleman from Westchester, (Gen. WARD) to let every gentleman have the opportunity to ofl'er his resolution, as it was a quasi petition from their constituents, and should be heard, however wrong it might be. There could be but one right, but both sides should be heard. The policy of the gentleman from West. chester, was the true policy for all parties.These questions must be met. They could net be got round nor over; they must be met by able and learned reports. That was the way to meet all moral subjects-with reason. It was not sanctioning any peculiar opinions, if the convention received them. It was but as the reception of ordinary petitions; if they should not do so, these resolutions in one half hour could be made to assume the shape of petitions, anl hIe broughlt in. He would prefer that gentlemen should mnake their propositions fieely, and then we shoull not be liable to misinterpretation. Mr. KIRKLAND thought the gentleman from New.York misapprehended the effect of a vote on a mere resolution of enquiry like this. It did not commit a single member who voted for it in the slightest degree. Hence he concurred with the gentleman from Essex, that we should let all these matters of enquiry go to committees, as presented from different quarters Were the question now on adopting the principle erbhodied in this resolution, he might cive a different vote from that he intended to give on referring it -as, if it were a petition presented by the mover, as suggested by the gentleman fi orn Essex. And he wanted it understood now, that in voting for these resolutions of enquiry, he in no way committed himself to the principle embodied in them. Mr. TALLMADGE expressed his great grat. ification that we had now begun in some measure to develop and draw forth the motives anti views that stimulated us. He repeated, he was glad, now thatwe had become fixed in our seats, that we were soon to take an attitude equally known to the public. This proposition was merely to refer to a committee a certain subject of enquiry. And since the idea seemed to be entertained that the reference was in some meusure a matter of courtesy, he insisted that his friend's resolution should be referred as matter of right, on the same footing as the enquiries pf other gentlemen. What was almost the first step in our proceedings? It was to take iup the great and leading divisions of the constitution, the legislative, the judicial, the executive, and so on, running through the instrument-and re. ferring them without committing any body to any thing, to committees-with the understand. ing that individual members should have the right to send their propositions to these commit. tees with perfect fieedom. But now when this understanding came to be carried out-when gentlemen came forward with their propositions in the shape in which they desired to have them -oh no-that would'nt do! It was too loosetoo loose. The blade flew off the handle! It would'nt do! We had passed nearly a fortnight in discussing unimportant propositions, and here we stood, just where we were on the second day of the session, though in a condition perhaps to proceed to the more important business before us. What next? The moment these little resolutions of enquiry began to come in, ah! then these resolutions had a meaning, and itwould'nt do to trust the committees with them! This, he admitted, had a momentous meanin.,. V'ha, was it? That every citizen from another state before being entitled to vote, shal nave 57 rsi led a year in the state. And what objection was there to making that a part of the constitution which was now the law of the land, and a p:art of the election oath? What further? Why that aliens should before voting have resided one 3ear in the state after naturalizat'on. If that was not made part of the constitution, citizens of other states, coring among us, would not be on a par with foreigners. Whereas an alien, coming here on the day before an election, and then naturalized, might vote. Why not require of himithe same period of residence as citizens of other states? Were it in order, he could go into so.ne of the commercial regulations adopted by con:ress,where by an inadvertence similar to this, alien ships had an advantage over our own. Why were gentlemen so sensitive on this subject? Here were a great many of us that wanted a registry. Let the convention order the enquiry. It committed us to nothing. And on the other hand, all we wanted was an enquiry into the propriety of placing naturalized aliens on a footing with native citizens from other states.That struck him as very reasonable, and for one he rejoiced that opinions had begun to develop themselves-and if this wen' on, we should very soon find our relative connections and associalions. He hoped this reference would be made. It should have been made in silence. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to alter the form of the resolution, so as to make it a resolution of reference merely. Mr. O'CONOR acquiesced in Mr. C's proposition and withdrew his own. Mr. HUNT also withdrew his, and adopted that of Mr. CHATFIELD, which wasResolved, That it be referred to the committee &c., to enquire,&c. Mr. TILDEN suggested to gentlemen desirous of bringing their views before the convention, for reference, that they should give such form to their resolutions as to express affirmatively their opinions, and then move a proper reference -and thus avoid any implied expression of opinion. That was substantially,the form suggested in this case. Mr. HARRISON accepted Mr. CHATFIELD'S modification of his resolution, Mr. MURPHY had no objection to this mode of proceeding. He concurred, so far as that point was concerned, with the gentleman from Dutchess (Mr. TALLMADGE.) But in the remarks which that gentleman submitted on that point, he had also gone somewhat into the mer. its of this question, and Mr. M. rose to protest for one, against the doctrines of that gentleman. Mr. M. denied that under the laws and constitution of this state, any advantage was given to the alien over the native born citizen. It was not, according to Mr. M's understanding of the constitution of this state, that aliens could vote at our elections without having been residents of the state for one year. Now the effect of such a proposition as that contained in this resolution, would be, to require of an alien a six years' residence before being entitled to vote, instead of five years, as now. And believing, as he did, that five years was enough, to develop the intention ot an alien to become a citizen of this country, and that being the only question of principle involved in the naturalization law, he repeated that he protested against the doctrine which required a six year's residence, as manifested by the remarks of the gentleman from Dutchess. Having risen simply because he could not allow the remarks of that gentleman to go out without expressing the opposition to their tenor which he honestly entertained, he had no. thing more to say. Mr. TALLMADGE had only a word of reply to his learned friend. Mr. T. stated the crse of an alien, residing for several years at Hoboken, going over to New Vork to-day, becoming naturalized there, and going to the polls and voting to.morrow. [Several voices " no sir," ' no sir," "' he can't (to it."] Whereas, citizens of other states, must have resided here a year before they could vote, by law, as he understood it, not by the constitution. That was the difficulty; and as his friend would have hirn speak, he must state, that he and those who thought with him, sought under this resolution, to prepare the way for the repeal of a law which placed aliens on a different footing from native citizens. But this reference would commit us to nothing. Let the committee enquire and report on the subject-on the propriety of some constitutional enactment on this subject. It was the law of the land that we, when our votes were challenged, should swear that we had resided one year in the state [several voices "It's in the constitution."] He did not understand it to be in the constitution. [A voice " Yes it is."] Possibly he was mistaken-if so, he had been led into the error by the remark of a friend near him, who had acted often as in. spector. But, it certainly was not in the constitution or laws that an alien should have resi. ded in the state one year after naturalization. And one of the very points of enquiry presented was whether aliens should be permitted to vote after a five year's residence, when citizens of other states, born here, had to wait a ear. But there was another p.int of view in which this question presented itself. And it certainly was worthy of enquiry whether citizens of Europe-of Gaul of Holland, Italy-who came here subject to none of tie requisitions upon our own citizens, should in five years acquire the right to vote, which our own sons, born here, could not have until they were twenty.one. Yet they were subject to militia duty from the age of 18. Why should these be excluded, when foreigners coming here ignorant of our language and unacquainted with our laws and institutions, were allowed mil a few years tomparatively, to become voters? Why should not foreigners, who were brought up perhaps under a monarchy, be required to wait at least one year after naturalization before being permitted to vote? Perhaps this committee might be of opinion that naturalized citizens should wait as long as our own children, fter becom:rng liable to militia duty, to become ncquainted with our institutions and to vote intelligibly. He could not see, why we should not let the committee take up the subject, without discussion here-for nobody wanted to discuss it-nor to say what we shou'd vote for or what not. The e.nquiry committed nobody. Mr. MURPHY cert inly had no,e t cMr. CHATFIELD (who rose at the same 58 time) remarked that the gentleman had spoken' twice. Mr. IARRISON would like to say a word, if in order. Mr. MURPHY had but a word to say. M. CHATFIELD yielded the floor. Mr. MURPHY only rose to say, that he had no desire to provoke discussion on this subject. If lie correctly understood the course of proceeding on this question, the discussion had been invited by his venerable friend from Dutchess. Mr. M. wished to separate the question of reference from the merits. He had not the least objection to the reference. He hoped every question connected with the policy or government of this state, might have a reference. He would let every opinion, every sentiment,every doctrine, entertained by citizens of this state, have a reference to an appropriate committee, if a member hers was disposed to facilitate such a reference by proposing it here. He would let these opinions and doctrines be as broad as the state itself. But on the merits of this question, which the gentleman fiom Dutchess had gone into and invited a discussion of, Mr. M. differed fromn him toto ccelo. Mr- TALLMADGE said his remarks were in reply to objections to the reference. He invited no discussion-did not intend it. Mr. MURPHY continued. It was undoubtedly a constitutional provision that no citizen, native or naturalized, could vote unless he had resided one year in the state, next previous to the election. Now the effect of this proposi. tion, he repeated, would be, to require an alien to be here six years instead of five, before he could vote-thus in a measure nullifying the law of the federal government, which gave him the right of citizenship at the end of five years.Take the gentleman's own illustration-the case of our own children-who could not vote until they were 21-the principle of this resolution, applied to that case, would require that they should not vote until one year after they came of age. or untii they were 22. Against that doe trine he protested, aikd having protested, he had no more to say. Mr. HARRISON had no idea, in offering this resolution, of committing the convention to the principle embodied in it. Nor had he now.His object was an inquiry, and that only —hat if possible, some ccnstitutinal provision might be made by which we should hereafter be secured from many irregularities that now took place at the polls. He had no disposition to strike at the rights, privileges or immunities of any citizen of this state, or of any alien who might herealter come among us. But he did contend, on the merits of the proposition, that it was no more oppressive for an alien, after being naturalized, to be restrained from voting one year. than for ti zens ot neighboring states who had been forty years citizens of the United States, to be restrained tor the same length of time.To illustrate this by a factin relation to himself: He was a native of New-Jersey, but had resid. ed in New-York more than forty years. It he had lived that length of time in his native state, and had moved into this in April last, he could not vote in November next, being prohibited by the law of the state from voting until the year was up. Was it more oppressive to exact this from strangers and foreigners, than from native citizens, who had lived in a neighboring state for 40 years? But he did not propose now to go into the merits of the resolution, but hoped that it. with the others, might be referred to the proper committee. Mr. PAT 'ERSON had supposed, under all parliamentary usage, that on a mere question of reference, the merits of the matter to be referred were not debateable. He supposed so still. But it seemed others had taken a different view of the subject, and the Chair had permitted them to go into the merits, and c.iscuss the principle involved. For one, he should not go into the merits ol this question at all. But he rose now merely to protest in his place against any distinction being drawn between naturalized and native citizens. He could never assent to any such distinction. He had no objection to the reference. He was willing that any gentleman should have any subject referred that he wished to have considered by a committee. He repeat. ed, he rose only to enter his protest against any distinction being drawn here or elsewhere, be. tween natural born and naturalized citizens. Mr. HARRISON'S resolution, as amended, was then adopted. PETIr JURORS. Mr. HART offered the following: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the judiciary to consider and report oil the propriety and expediency of reducing the number of petit jurors to citght,in tri;ls of civil causes; and especi.tlly whtther in their opinion the due administration of justice would ill any way be impaired thereby. Mr. NICOLL moved to add an enquiry into the expediency of dispensing with jury trials, by consent of parties, in common law proceedings —but subsequently said he would embody this proposition in a distinct resolution. Mr. TOWNSEND suggested that it should be an enquiry into the expediency of reducing the number of jurors, without specifying any number. Mr. HART preferred that the gentleman should offer his own resolution, separately. The resolution was adoptel. JURY DUTY. Mr. BERGEN offered the following, which was adopted;Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the powers and duties of the legilature, except &c. to take into consideration an.t enquire into the expediency and propriety of limiting the power of the legisla. ture in exempting individuals from jury duty. APPOINTM'-NTS BY JUDICIAl, OFFICERS-THEIR FEES-THE COUtlI OF ERK(AK.. Mr. KIRKLAND here said that some days would probably elapse before we should have reports of committees to act upon. Meanwhile, we might be usefully employed in discussion and in interchanges of sentiment —and thus bring back to us, perhaps. through the press, the sentiments of our constituents, which could not be otherwise than valuable to us. There was no way of arriving at this result, except through resolutions of instruction, and with that view he had drawn up two or three, which he proposed to have read, laid on the table and printed. They were in the form of instructions. He had put them in that form under the belief that they would meet with pretty general concurrence. Mr. K. sent up his resolutions. Mr. STRONG said a serious question arose here-whether one gentleman had a right to of: fer more than one resolution at a time. If that was so. one member might offer them in gross, and block up the way, so that gentlemen who were somewhat diffident, as he was, [a laugh] might not have a chance. The PRESIDENT replied that more than one might be offered perhaps, to be laid on the table; though they should be separately considered. Mr. STRONG thought the fact that they were only offered to be laid on the table, ought not to make any difference as to the number-for being there they could be called up at any time. Mr. KIRKLAND'S resolutions were read as follows: Resolved, That the judiciary committee be instruct. ed to repoit an amendment to the constitution depriving judicial officers of all power of appointment to office. Rlesolved, That the judiciary committee be instructed io report an amendment to the constitution prohib. iting all judicial officers, except justices of the peace, from receiving any fees or perquisites for official services. Resolved, That the judiciary committee be instructed to report an amendment to the con-titution abolishing the Court for the correction of Errors, as now organized. Mr. TALLMADGE called for the reading of the latter part of the second resolution, to see if it covered all the ground intended. The resolution was read again. Mr. TALLMADGE was going on to make a suggestion, when Mr. CHATFIELD enquired if there was any question before the Convention? The PRESIDENT stated the question to be on printing. Mr. TALLMADGE said that question being debateable, he would state why he would not print it as it was now. [A laugh]. He alluded to the words lees and perquisites for official services. Mr. KIRKLAND did not know what words he could use that would more tully express what he intended. Mr.TALLMADGE said this did not cover the case, where the fees of the clerk were worth a good deal more than those of the judge-and the judge was in the habit of adding to his salary by dividing with the clerk. That was not official duty. He wanted to cover that case. Mr. KIRKLAND said that might be a case of corruption. He intended the legitimate fees for official services, not the fees of official corruption. The printing of the resolutions was ordered. DIS rRICT ATTORNEYS. Mr. BRUCE offered a resolution directing an enquiry through the Secretary, calling on the several district attorneys for the fees and com. pensation charged and received by them in the year '45. Mr. BERGEN suggested that in many coun. ties-Kings, for instance, the district attorney was a salaried officer. Mi. BRUCE replied, that the word compen. sation would cover such cases. Mr. STETSON said all the information sought could be obtained at the office of the Secretary of State, if the district attorneys had done their duty. The enquiry should be limited to those who had not, if any. The resolution was laid on the table, with the consent of the mover. TrE COUntT oF ERRORS-COURT OF CHANCERY. Mr. SWACKHAMER offered the following, which was referred to the judiciary committee: Resolved, That the committee on the judiciary be requested to enquire into the practicability of abolishing the court tor the correction of errors, and the court of chancery-anid the establishment in lieu thereof of a court of law and equity, divested of legislative functions, harmonizing with the present eplightened public sentiment, and strictly in consonance with our liberal institutions —and of fixing a limita:tion as to the time within which decisions shall be made by the courts of this state, restricting suitors to one appeal, and on the expediency of establishing a court of concilia-ion. THE PUBLIC ItIVENUE Mr. SHEPARD said he had a resolution, which in the present good temper of the Convention, he would send up-hoping that it was in such shape as to be acceptable to the gentleman from Ontario (Mr. WORDEN). Resolved, That the propriety of providing for the collection of the public revenue of this state, in the current coin of the U. S. be and hereby is referred to the committee on the public revenues. The resolution was adopted. DIREC r TAXATION. Mr. LOOMIS offered the following: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the powers and duties of local officers to enquire into the expediency of making constitutional provision to equal ze direct taxation, and to make it proportionate to the actual value ol the estate of the individual taxed, regardless ot the distinction between real and personal estate. Mr. LOOMIS explained-that individuals were now taxed on the full value of their real estate, regardless of their liabilities; whereas in regard to personal estate, they were only assessed on the amount in possession, less the amount of liabilities. By this means, the farm. ing interest bore an undue portion of the public burthens. A large share of the farms and real estate in the country, and lots in cities and villa. ges, were under mortgage or other liens. Yet they were assessed on their full value. He de. sired a report on the subject, without intending to express any opinion. ^ The resolution was adopted. Mr. MORRIS offered the following: — Resolved, That members, in presenting subjects for the consideratior ot the Convelti n, piesent ihemn as the proposition ol' the nmenber:-and thtt the President shall iefer then to an approptiate committee, unless some other reference Le otdered by the Convention Mr. MORRIS said this would assimilate these resolutions to the petition in legislation, and relieve members from all embarrassment in voting on questions of reference. Mr. TALLMADGE suggested that it would still farther simplify the proceeding, if members were to send these enquiries to the Chair, and let the Chair refer them. Mr. NICOLL objected that this would con. pel members to come out affirmatively for a pro. position,-and to commit themselves to it, before an enquiry and report,-and without perhaps 60 the opportunity to sustain it before reference. Mr. W. TAYLOR could see no necessity for the adoption of such a resolution. It was objectionable too because it would throw the burden on the CHAIR to decide to what committee a proposition might belong. He could conceive a great many subjects which would involve a doubt as to the committee to which they should be referred. It appeared that as the rule now stood each gentleman could present his proposition in the shape of a resolution and then name its relerence to someparticular committee; and it might go there,unless some gentleman objected, without the formality of a question. Mr. STEPHENS objected to the proposition of his colleague (Mr. MORRIS), for it would make it imperative on every member to as. sume the proposition he might offer. But gen. tlemen might feel it to be their duty to submit propositions of enquiry in regard to which they might not wish to commit themselves; such a rule then would strike at the root of the freedom which it was desirable they should enjoy. A few days since he received a letter from a gentleman, whom le highly valued, asking him to make a suggestion to the Convention, with which he might comply without taking the burden of sustaining it, because he was not convinced of its propriety. But under the resolu. tion now before the Convention, he should be unable to submit such propositions, and they would be cut off from participating in the advantages which might ensue if they were to hear freely the suggestions of their ccnstituents. Mr. HOFFMAN hoped his friend (Mr. MORRIS) would withdraw the resolution, otherwise it might become a rule, and all rules were ropes around the necks of members. If the rule should continue to stand as at present, it would be competent for any gentleman to submit naked matters of enquiry, which might go from the house to the committees, or members would be left at liberty to take such other parliamentary course as their judgments might suggest to be the proper one. If, however, they adopted this rule, they would be straightened in their action; for a gentleman could not offer a resolution where he had a doubt-where his mind was not made up-as he would not be able to say, " I think so." And next, by the very form of the order, every resolution would be made to go to the Chair,where it would be under the influence of the rule that commits it to a committee.Now the question was to be determined by the Convention, shall it go to a committee? But -riopt the gentleman's resolution, and they would have no possible mode of keeping it before the Convention, even until its mover could explain his reasons for offering it, which he thought would be carrying the abridgment of our rig its further than the gentleman from Newu ork intended it should go. If any proposition should be submitted there, which it might be improper to receive, it would be easy to raise the question of reception. He thought that the ordinary parliamentary practice was suffi. cient, without the limitation of the present proposition. The Convention woull also find it convenient, and safe, and perhaps indispensably necessary, to adopt no resolution which would operate as a rule, until they had a day or two to consider it. Mr. MORRIS consented that his resolution should lie on the table for the present, and it was laid on the table accordingly. ASSI STANT SECRETARY. Mr. HART submitted the following resolution: Resolved, That Thomas T. Loomis be and he hereby is appointed an assistant secretary to this convention. Mr. BERGEN moved to lay the resolution on the table. Mr. PATTERSON, had hoped that two secretaries would be as many as the business of the Convention would require. He thought if two experienced individuals had been selected, they could have done all the business; but lie was not now quite cer ain how they were to get along without some additional help. One of the secretaries, he understood, was out of health; the other, he had no doubt, with experience enough, would make a good secretary: but from what he had seen from the commencement of the session, he was pretty well convinced that they were not to get along without some additional help in that department. In the organization of the Convention, the Chair would bear him out in saying that, for one, so far as the election of the regular officers was concerned, he took no part; nor did those acting with him on this floor, const tuting a minority of the Convention, take any part in that proceeding. It was left to the majority of the Convention, who selected their own officers, though he had sup. posed that, in the organization of a Conventiol like this, the majority would have deemed it expedient to elect as one of the secre aries, an individual entertaining the views of the minority of the Convention. In this he confessed he had been disappointed; and now he appealed to the majority, and he would inquire of them, if they were to appoint an additional secretary, whether in courtesy to the minority, we ought not t, have him from amongst' us? He submitted to the majority, whether out of the mino ity they could not get a competent man to do t}li duty? He did not ask it asa favor to himself, for he had no favor to ask; but if the minority should present the name of an individual who was pre-eminently qualified, would it not be just and proper that such a man as that should be appointed? He therefore moved to strike out the name of Thomas T. Loomis-an individual of whom he had no knowledge, of whom he had never heard till this moment-of whoee (xperience therefore he knew nothing, though if he were experienced, he (Mr. P.) presumed he should have known him-and insert the name of Philander B. Prindle of Chenanzo county, than whom no man was better qualified to discharge the duties of the office. He would not say that Mr. Prindle was superior to all other men, but he would say that no man was supe. rior to him. He had long experience as a clerk of the Assembly; for two years he was deputy clerk and two years he was clerk, and lie (Mr. P.) appealed to gentlemen who were here when Mr. Prindle acted as clerk, to bear him out in saying that no man could better discharge the duties than Mr. Prindle. He would not only ap peal to gentlemen of the minority but of the ma 61 jority also; he asked any and every one of them other gentlemen, he desired to have a little time if they ever knew an officer discharge the duties to enquire who was the best qualified and suitawith greater ability and more to the satisfaction ble to be appointed. of the house than Mr. Prindle? He appealed Mr. WATERBURY made some observations to them with entire confidence; and if they were which were not distinctly heard. to have another secretary, he hoped they would Mr. STRONG said as there had been some be allowed to have a man who was known to talk here he also wished to say a word or two. be competent. Let them not blunder on, butlet Gentlemen seemed to be alarmed lest they them'have a man abundantly qualified, and then should appoint some one who was not compethe business would progress rapidly. He had tent to do the duties of the office. Now whether no feeling for one man over another; he could gentlemen came to that conclusion from name many men from amongst his friends who the appointments they had already made would discharge the duties well, but lie knew it was not for him to say; but he appealed to none that could discharge them better than Mr. the gentleman from Kings (Mr. SWACKHAMER) Prindle. whether he did not know from experience Mr. WARD hoped the mover of the resolu- (which was the best schoolmaster) that Phition would allow it to be acted upon in blank, lander B. Prindle, as a clerk, had not his equal that the sense of the convention might be taken in the empire state? Why, he will do more on the question of appointing an additional sec. business in one hour than we do now in two.retary. If the convention were willing to He is the most ready man at reading writingdecide that they bhould have another, they and sometimes I have thought he could read could proceed to the election either by ballot or where none existed-that I ever saw. (Roars viva voce. He wasfree to state for one as a of laughter.) Why, he will read any man's member of the convention, that he did think hand writing, if it is but " quail tracks" or a there was a necessity to have further aid there, lawyer's, which is nearly as bad as ' quail and he would much rather that such aid was tracks" (laughter), he will always read it right; given by a direct vote of the convention, than if gentlemen did not write it right, he would that the secretaries should be constrained to em- read it right (renewed laughter). It', then, the ploy a clerk themselves and- pay him out of their majority had the magnanimity to allow the miown pockets, as they had now no authority to nority to b? Jepresented by a scaretary that was employ aid for the convention. The secreta- competent, there would Je ao difficulty in the ries were manifestly not able to discharge the selection, nor need it be put off a moment. He arduous duties that devolved upon them. They trusted the majority did not intend to have the had all seen to-day thirty or forty resolutions oi- whole. He had too high an opinion of the defered to the convention, and it was not in the mocracy of this Convention to suppose they did. power of any man or any two men to go on and If then, the majority had not determined to have make up the journal. The secretaries had em. one of their own party, it might be necessary to ployed a person, whom they must pay out of look around for a man that was competent; and their own pockets. It was due from the conven- he asked them, and he asked it with a good deal tion, therefore, that they should say they would of confidence, to let them have Mr. Prindle, the have further aid, and that they would elect an- very man that they wanted. He was not ot the othet secretary, leaving the resolution blank as political creel of the majority, but his creed to the person to be employed until the primary would not interfere with the discharge of his question was settled. duties. Mr. HART consented to leave a blank for the Mr. SWACKHAMER rose to reply tothe very name of the person to be elected. strong appeal which had been made to him by Mr. SHEPARD said this was a matter the gentleman from Monroe, and with respect to which required some little deliberation and the person spoken of he would say that Mr. he moved to lay the resolution on the table. Prindle was a perfect gentleman, and as a Sec. The motion was negatived. retary an abler man he had never known; he Mr. CROOKER moved to strike out the word was fully equal to the duties of Secretary of the Assistant," desiring that they should come Convention or any other body of men. There within the meaning of the act. Some gentlemen might be his equals in the state, but he (Mr. S.) had heretofore cautioned them to keep within had never met ith them yet. With respect to their expressed authority, and as the Con- the Secretaries who had been elected by the Con. vention act gave them power to elect Secre. vention, he took occasion to say that he appre. taries but not" Assistant" Secretaries, he made ciated them as much as any member could, his motion to strike out. both as gentlemen and as scholars; but it requiMr. ANGEL moved as a substitute, the fol- red peculiar qualifications as readers to a body lowing:- like this, which very few possessed, and there. That this Convention will proceed on Monday next, fore he remarked, democracy or no democracy, at 12 o'clock M, to elect an Assistant Secretary. he would not vote for any man of whose qualitiMr. A.W. YOUNG, thought it was very de. cations he had not had an opportunity to judg, sirable that they should proceed to an election He conceded to the minority of the Conventi without delay. that it would be magnanimous and right in e Mr. RHOADES asked the gentleman from ry point of view to appoint such a Secretary. Allegany if he expected the election to be by he had describe], but up to the present day ballot. with but a few exceptions, they had had no alluMr. ANGEL was understood to say he did; sion to party in this Convention. He hoped they and as he was not acquainted with the candi- should so proceed that party and faction would dates, and he supposed this was the case with not be heard of at all, but that their business 62 would be so conducted as to produce the good and happiness of all the people of the state, bor whom, with all due respect, they were to act, minority and majority. He would willingly conceJe to so very respectable a minority as they had in that Convention, when they could present such a man as Mr. Prindle, so able as he wfas but he thought there were others who also were tlaiy qualified, and for qualified men only would he vote, amongst whom there were Mr. Rose, Mr. Se.er, Mr. Loomis, and Mr. Prindle. Mr. CHATFIELD said inasmuch as the gentieman from Oswego (Mr. HART,) had offered the resolution on his solicitation, he desired to say a few words in relation to its adoption. He commenced with an expression of his regret that any gentleman on that floor should have so far forgotten the usual courtesies of life as to cast retiections on the present secretaries of the Convention. So far as he bad observed he was tree to confess that the gentlemen who had been appointed had fully answered his expecta. tions; and he had no doubt they would discharge the duties which devolved upon them with fidelity and so as to facilitate the business of the Convention..It could not be expected that gentlemen coming from other avocations to be secretaries to a body like this, would come fully qualified to discharge the duties with rapid. ity at once; but he had no doubt they would soon discharge them with facility. Nevertheless it was apparent that the Convention required more strength in that department, and he thought the objection of the gentleman from Cat. taraugus (Mr. CROOKER,) was but hypercriticism. He had yet to learn that an assistant secretary was not a secretary within the meaning of the act. The person named had claims upon them. He came before them as a candidate for the place of Secretary, but when he found that there were other candidates that were better qualified, he cheerfully withdrew his name. In that he was magnanimous, and in view of that magnanimity and his desire to avord distracting their counsels, he (Mr. C.) was disposed to think he had claims for this appointment if they appointed any body. With respect to the remarks of the gentlemen from Chautauque and Monroe, (Mr. PATTERSON and Mr. STRONG), he remarked that they had appealed to the magnanimity of the majority to yield them this Secretary. Now if those gen. tienien were in the majority here, and responsible for what would be done, would they make such concessions on the ground of magnanimity? When the Constitutorn shall have been formed and sent to the people for confirmation. and the gentlemen opposite take the stump for or against it. would they not hold the present majority responsible for it? He (Mr. C.) knew enough of political action to be satisfied that if there should be any thing in it that could be tor. tured into an obnoxious aspect, the responsi..ility would be cast on them. In this view of he case, as they as a party would be required to take the responsibility, he would have a Secretary of their own choosing, and not a man whose responsibility they should not be willing to bear. But the gentleman fiom Monroe had given them the best reason why this man Prin. dle should not be appointed-he could read writing that had not been written. Perhaps the gentleman from Monroe made the statement from his own knowledge of the fact. lie (?Mr. C.) had been here with that clerk, and perhaps he might add that he could not ornly read writing wlhere it was not written, but count votes which did not exist on a division. He (Mr. C.) had had occasion to challenge the count of that c!erk, and on a second count the re.uit was different. Now he wanted no man so to count there; he wanted no man that they coul.i not trust, and therelure he was opposed to yielding his election on the ground of rmanan inlity. Mr. SIMMONS did not think the subjecLworthy of so grave a debate, nor should he have risen to make any remarks, were it not for those that had fallen from the gentleman from Otsego in reference to Mr. Prindle. He had the honur of a seat on that floor during three successive sessions of the legislature, and he was not aware during that period, of any unfairness or dislonesty on thepart of lr. Prindle, and hewas really sorry that it had been deemed necessary gravely to make such a suggestion in this body. He was satisfied the gentleman fiom Otsego would not have done it if he had not been almost provoked to it by the indiscreet suggestion of the gentleman from Monroe. In regard to the gentlemen who had been selected as their secretaries, he considered that all reflections, by implication or otherwise, were undeserved. He had long been acquainted with one of the secre-,taries, who was not now present, and for a short time with the other, and he had seen nothing but that of which he approved in those secretaries. A few words more an l he had done. He did not hold that a gentleman because he had well filled a place several years, should be necessarily continued. He believed in rotation in office. If a man had held an office for several years and done well, his pay and his honor did very well for him and they should try others.However, after all it was good to have an experienced nan, and he approved of the plan adopted in the election of inspectors where one was given to the minority. This was prudent, as it had a tendency to keep all parties free from suspicion. Mr. STETSON was happy to hear the dis. claimer of the gentleman from Essex; but he had heard with considerable surprise the remarks of the gentlemen from Chautauque and Monroe, in which they had appealed to the magnanimity of a portion of the Convention, when their title to it was founded almost on an act of discourtesy. The remarks of the gentleman from Chautauque were a direct reflection on the present secretaries; and yet, for that reason, the election of a secretary was to be yielded to them! With reference to political magnanimity, he referred to the election law passed in 1842, by the party now in the ascendant, w'hich conceded to the minority an inspector of election. Mr. PATTERSON replied, disclailning all reflections on 4the present Secretaries. He had no doubt if their Secretaries had had the experience of even one session of the legislature they would make very good secretaries, but at present one was sick and the other was without, experience. A statement of' these facts was no refection on the Secretaries. lie also entered 63 into a statement of the course pursued by the legislature when the party with which he acted was in the majority, in relation to the appointment of a minority of their opponents on the committee to examine the treasurer's accounts, as a claim to the merit of being magnanimous. He also stated that during all the years he had been in the legislature, he had never heard a lisp against the character of Mr. Prindle; the different result on a second count was in itself no reflection on the Clerk, as a different number might have voted. If, however, the majority should appoint all the clerks he would not complain, though he had thought that minorities had rights. Mr. STETSON said it was due to the gentleman from Chautauque to say, that all Mr. S. intended to say before, was that the appeal to the magnanimity of the majority was not very much omnmended to their acceptance by the reflections which he thought were insinuated against the Clerks. Mr. S. did not pass upon the rights of the minority. The general course of the gentleman's remarks had gone far beyond the legitimate bearing of any one of his own. But he would not dwell on this; nor contribute, even by his humble example to political discussions here. But it should be known abroad, after what had occurred, that the manner of keeping the journal was different from what it was in the Convention of '21 -in Congress or in our own Legislature. Here every thing was recorded-even rejected propositions-and all those made in committee of the whole-throwing an immense amount of clerical labor on the Clerks. As to experience, he believed we had it, at least, in the one fiom Rensselaer, (Mr. Strong.) He had been a Senator four years, was an accomplished scholar and gentleman, and distinguished in his profession-with the ability to discern and the power to execute his duty. Having said this much, he should leave this matter with the Convention-without intimating his own course in relation to it. Mr. RHOADES did not understand the gen. tleman from Chautauque as saying any thing derogatory to the character and qualifications of the clerks, in other respects than that one was absent from ill health, and the other lacked experience. He did not listen to the remarks of the gentleman from Monroe (Mr. STRONG), but he thought he knew him well enough, his good feeling and good nature, to know that he would not stand up here, in presence of the Convantion, and of the secretaries, who could not defend themselves, and call in question their qualifications. Mr. STETSON said he should have said, when up before, to his friend from Chautauque, under his disclaimers, that Mr. S. must have misunderstood him; and that he imputed no intention to disparage the clerks, since it had been disavowed. Mr. RHOADES went on to say, that with one of the secretaries (Mr. STRONG) he had the pleasure of an intimate acquaintance, having had a seat with him in the Senate for four years. He regarded him, in every thing except health, as fully competent to his duties. With the other he had no acquaintance, but from what he had seen of him, he had exhibited only a want of experience, but all other requisites of a competent secretary. Nor did he believe that any one of his party here (if we must talk about party) would publicly or privately attempt to disparage either of these officers. Mr. R. said he had no appeal to make to the magnanimity of the majority for a secretary. He had seen, indeed, but little to indicate that there was any party here-except what he had seen in the room above, before the Convention opened.The gentleman from Otsego said something about a majority being here, who were responsible for what was done. Mr. CHATFIELD:-That was in answer to the appeal to us, as a majority. Mr. RHOADES did not believe the people or the minority here intended to hold the majority responsible for any thing. We met here as a convention of the people-and he put it to gentlemen to say if it was not expected by many of their c'ltiituents-if they did not hear the matter talked of at home, and the wish expressed that this body might be organized without there seeming to be any political party here.This convention was not called for by a partywas not voted for by the party claiming to be in the majority here, as a party. The people called for it, and without reference to party.The position of some of us here, showed that the people did not carry party politics into the election. The county of Greene had sent here two delegates-one of them known at home as a whig, and the other as a democrat. So the vote in Chemung, showed a similar absence of party views. Mr. CROOKER here suggested Onondaga. Mr. RHOADES was going to allude to Onondaga, and his own position. Though he professed to be a whig, he did not stand there as the representative of that party particularly. He was first nominated by the whigs-and then by a convention calling themselves reformers-the a by a convention calling themselves liberty men, And when voted for he had good authority for saying, that he was voted for by whigs, by reformers, by liberty men, and-he appealed to, his colleague from Onondaga over the way (Mr. TAYLOR) to bear him out in the assertion-by more than 200 of those who called themselves barn-burners [laughter]-and he might add that this climax was sprinkled and garnished by some' from the old hunkers. [Renewed laughter.]He did not come here to represent a party, and he had seen little among those of his party to indicate that they came here to make a party constitution. He thought the appointment of a secretary from the minority would be very salutary to the feeling of this body, and of our constituents —and that nobody would find fault with it. He appealed therefore to theConvention itself-not to the magnanimity of any portion of it, to appoint one whom even some of the ma jority had conceded to be admirably qualified. On motion of Mr. WILLARD, the Convention Adj. to 11 o'clock to-morrow morning. 64 FRIDAY. JUNE 12. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. BENSON. STANDING COMMITTEES. The PRESIDENT announced the committees on the subdivisions of the resolution of the committee of 17 as amended by the convention, as follows:1. On the apportionmcnt, election, tenure of office and compensation of the Legislaturc.-Messrs. W. Taylor, R. Campbell, Salisbury, White, Burr, Lanford, "W. B. Wright. 2. On the powers and duties of the Legsslature, except as to matters otherwise reterred.-Messrs. Stetson, Powers, Miller, St. John, Harrison, J. J. Taylor, Mc Nitt. 3. On Canals, internal improvements, public revenues and property, public debt, and the powers and duties of the Legislature in reference thereto; and the restrictions, if any, proper to he imposed upon the action of the Legislature in mnaking doattons from the public funds, and snmaking loans of the morneys or credit of the State. -Messrs. Huffman, Tilden, Gerhard, Hunter, W. H. Spencer, Greene, Richmond. 4 On the elective franchise-the qualifications to vote and hold office -Messrs Bouck, Gardiner, Kennedy, Dodd, Dorlon, Wood, E. Huntington. 6. On the election, tenure of office, compensation, powers and duties (except the power to appoit or nominate to office), of the Governor and Lieutenant Governor.Messrs. Viorris, Porter, Hyde, Kings.ey, Penniman, Clark, Waterbury. 6. On the election or appointment of all offlcerc, other than le.cislative and judicial, and the Governor and Lt - Governor, who.e diuties and powers are not locol and their powers, duties ansd compencsation —Messrs. Chatfield, Ferkins, Kemble, Strong, Nicholas, Danforth, Shaver. 7. On the appointment or election of all officers whose powers and duties a7c local, and their tenure of office, powers, da.f.ies and comnpensation.-l-essrs.Angel, Jones, Archer, Dubvis, Maxweil, Hawley, Shaw. 8 On the militia,and military officers.-Messrs.Ward, Chamberlain, McNiel, Bruce, Stanton, Kernan, A. Wright 9. On official oaths and affirmations; and the competency of witnesses, and oaths and affirmations in legal and equity proceeding.- Messrs. Rhoad —s, Baker, Forsyth, Cornell, Brundage, israyton, Hotchkiss. 10. On th/e jtdiciary-and the appointment or eleclion of judicial officers, actd their tenure of office and connpensat on. —Messrs. Ruggles,O'Conor, Kirkland,Brown, Jordan, Lo-mis,Worden, Simmons, Bascom, Hart, Stephens, Patterson, Sears. 11. Un the rights and privileges of the citizens of this state.-Messrs Tallmadge., Ayrault, Swackhamer, Parish D D. Campbell, Witbeck, Yauger. 12. On Education, common schools, and the appropriate funds.- Messrs Nicoll, Munro, Bowdishb A. W.Young, Talbill, Willard, Hunt. 13. On future amendments and r.visionsof the Constitution.-IMessrs Marvin, Hiker, ~'ache, Cook, Nellis, Graham, J. Young 14. ( n the orgsaizxa'ionand powers of cities and incorporated villg es, and especially their power of taxation, assessmnent, borrowmrg mosney, contracting debts, and loaning their credit.-MNes.ss. Mh.rphy, Allen, Stow, Mann, Crooher, Van Schoonhov:n, Sheldon. 15. On the power of counties, towns, and other municifat corporatwuns, exrcpt cities and t tncporated villages, and especially their power of loc'sl legislation, taxation, assessment, bozrowi7ng money and contracting debts.Messrs. Brown, Ht Campbell, F. F. Backus, Smith, Tafft, Flanders, Candee. 16. on the currency and banking -Messrs. Cambreleng, Russell, Dorlon, 'lownsend, E. Spencer, Cudde.back, Ta-ggart. 17. On incorporations other than banking or municipal Messrs. Loom s, '-hepard, Bergen, Dana, Conelly, H. Backus, Warren. 18. On the creation and division of estates in lands.Messrs. Nelson, Harris, Flanders, Bull, A. Huntington, Hutchinson, Clyde. ASSISTANT SECRETARY. Mr. JORDAN rose for the purpose of making a motion to modify the amendment which was pending at the adjournment yesterday, which he hoped would meet the approbation of the mover (Mr. ANGEL.) If he understood the business of the convention aright they adjourned yesterday on the pendency of a motion made by the delegate from Allegany, so to amend the resolution of the gentleman from Otsego, as to provide that the convention shall proceed on Monday next to appoint an assistant secretary. He now moved to amend the amendment by striking out the words " on Monday next," and inserting the words "forthwith by ballot." If this met the views of the mover of the amendment he should be pleased, and he thought it would be the means of disposing of this somewhat vexed question which it was advisable to do without further delay. Mr. ANGEL accepted the modification. Mr. CHATFIELD said he believed the resolution was yet under the control of the mover, no question having been taken thereon, and as it was offered at his instance, he now desired to withdraw it. Mr. HART withdrew the resolution, and it was withdrawn accordingly. QUALIFICATION OF VOTERS. Mr. GREEN offered a resolution which was adopted, thus:Resolved, That the committee on the elective franchise be directed to enquire aind report as to the expediency of requiring some constitutional provisi n whereby every person who shall hereof er become a voter, except in case of physical inability, shall be required to be able to read and write. ASSISTANT SECRETARYMr. JORDAN said the resolution which h had previously moved to amend, having been withdrawn, he supposed it was in order to offer the amendment as an original resolution, notwithstanding the withdrawal of that first offered. He therefore moved the following: Resolved, That this Convention will proceed forthwith by ballot to elect an Assistant secretary of this Convention. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to amend so as to provide that the President and Secretaries of the Convention be authorized to employ an assistant Secretary. Mr. PATTERSON, on reference to the Convention law, which authorized the Convention to elect a President by ballot out of their own number, and to appoint one or more Secretaries -doubted their authority to delegate the power to appoint a Secretary to the President and ex. isting Secretaries. If they were to have another, he thought the appointment should be by the Convention. Mr. CHATFIELD said there could be no doubt of the power of this body to appoint the necessary Secretaries to transact the business of the Convention, nor that what the Convention directed to be done was in fact done by it. One of the most familiar principles of the common law met with in the books, was that whatever was done by a primary through a seconds was done by the primary itself. If this were 65 not so, the keeper of the gallery and the messengers employed here were here improperly.The Convention could lmake its appointments in.uch a mode dis they might deem most conven. ient to carry out the law and contribute to their own usefulness. He preferred tile amendment, because he thought the President and Secretaries would be tihe better judges of the qualifications of tile person or persons to be employed than the Convention. It might be necessary that two assistant Secretaries should be appointel; at all events there should be a limit, anti therelfoe lie lmodified his amendment so as to provide that tile appointments should not exceed two. Mr. WARD entertained the opinion that the power to appoint the secretaries was with the Convention. I' lie entertained any other opinion, lie should be willing to confer it on the plesident and present secretaries; but on this subject the Convention act was very clear. His friend from Otsego yesterday caused a resolution to le offered for the appointment of an additional secretary, and it was apparent from tile tenor ofthe resolutionthat the gentleman then entertained the same opinion he (Mr. W.) now expressed. He was still satisfied there was not force enough at the clerk's desk, for the transaction of their business. The Convention had but little to do to-day, and they might as well go on and dispose of this matter, and select the most competent man theycould get to discharge these duties. He repeated, that he hoped they would proceed at once to do this business, for to-morrow some of the committees might be ready to report. Mr. JORDAN had no disposition to take up the time of the Convention with this or any oilter subject unnecessarily; bu. he had offered this resolution, after the original resolution was withdrawn, because he supposed it was advisable to put that question at rest, and that they slhould have tlie competent number of Secreta. ries and a complete organization, before they got to the main business of the Convention. He had no feeling one way or the other, how tile thing was done. Whether they appointed an additional Secretary by name, or it were done by the Secretaries, was a matter of perfect indifference to him. He was constrained howev. er to disagree with his worthy friend from Otsego as to the principle of the common law, which he supposed would govern them in cases of this sort. It was a true maxim that he who does an act by another does it by himself; but that was true only where they acted of their own volition. In cases of delegated authority, by a special power of attorney, or by statute, or other mode, lie apprehended the power did npt x exst to make a sub-delegation of a delegated power. The question was then taken on the amendment and it was lost. The question then recurred cn the resolution. Mr. SWACKHAMER sugeested an amendment-to strike out " Assistant" and insert ' addilionnl " Secretary. Mr. JORDAN assented to the amendment. Mr. CHATFIELD proposed another amend. ment, to strike out the word " ballot" and insert at the close the words 5 And each member as his name is called shall rise in his place and openly nominate t person to lill the said l lace. Mr. CHAMBERLAIN called for a division of the question, so tliat tile vote might be lirst taken on slriikina out. Mr. CHATF'lII',l) said in all bodies where tlhe open vote could be as conveniently given as any other, it woultl be bctter that it shollldl be adopted. He preferred it lhere lor two or1 three reasons. (ne reason was, and that alone was sufticient, that it wIas the more expeditious, andt the more easily got along wxith. In a deglegated capacity lie was always w.llin to take the res. ponsibility of his actions, and lie hlai never been placed in a situation where lie as at a ll aftaid to assume that responsibility. Such a course of voting at all times lput the constitlent in a position to know if tile replresentative had acted with fidelity. The question was then taken on striking out and negatived. The original resolution was then adople l. T'le ballot resulted as fiollows. Messrs. MORRIS and NICHOLAS acting as tellers:Philander B. Prindle 50 Win. H. Grant 2 Francis seger 21 Cl;rkson '. Crosby 1 'hos. T. Loomis 19 Win. W. Dean I Jas. R. Rose 14 Joseph Rose 1 E. S. Marsh 3 blank! 113 Mr, TALLMADGE understood the Clerk to announce that there were but 112 ballots where. as there appeared to be 113. He only alluded to it as a connment on whalt was said yesterday, of the liability of these accidents, under any cir. cumstances-andl he availed himself of this oc. casion —it havintr been his lot to presideMr. CHATFIELD interposed-asking if it was in order to debate this matter? Mr. TALLMADGE only wanted to say that it was always the usage, on a ballot, for the clerk to check the names, as members came up and voted, and announce the number before the ballot-box was touched. There being no choice, The Convention then proceeded to a second ballot-with the same tellers-which resulted thus:Francis Seger 42 J. T. Disosway 1 P. B. Prindle 66 E S Marsh 1 T. T. Looris 9 Blank 2 Jas. R. Rose 4 - 114 Previous to canvassing this vote, Mr. MORRIS (one of the tellers) announced that the ballots counted out I1-4-tlhough the Clerk announced belore counting them tltat there were 112-bit on revising his list, 113. Mr. WARD suggested thlat the Clerk call the roll again, to ascertain if he had checked all that had voted. Mr. RUSSELL said probably members had voted out of their order, and thus escaped the notice of the Clerk. Mr. JONES had no doubt 114 had voedl; bit if there was any doubt about it, lby calling tile roll as suggested, the error, it any, migit be dis. covered Mr. BASCOM suggested that tllis would not do-as some who voted, had gone out. 66 Mr. DODD moved that the tellers proceed to catnvass the ballots-which was agrced to. There being no choice on the second ballot, (as above) tlle Convention proceeded to a third ballot, with the same tellers-which resulted as follows:Fran cis Seger 55 Blank 1 P. B. Prinltle 53 - T. T Loomis 4 114 Jas. R. lose 1 No choice having been effected, Mr. CHAMBERLAIN ofllred the following: Resolved, That Francis Seger is hereby declared duly elected one of the.Secretaries of this Convention. Mr. C. said he oflered the resolution, as Mr. Seger had a plurality on the last ballot. He called for the ayes and noes on the resolution. The PRESIDENT remarked that the resolution adopted by the convention was to proceed by ballot to elect a secretary. The convention had proceeded thlus far, by ballot, without having made a choice. The chair was of opinion thlat it was not in order to proceed in any other mode to elect a secretary, without reconsidering the resolution directing the election to be made by ballot Mr. CHAMBERLAIN inquired if it was not competent to alter the mode of designating at any time when the convention saw proper? He thoughlt the body might at once revoke the former order and adopt another without this formality of reconsiderinr. Mr. PERKINS here moved that the next ballot be confined to the two highest on the lastand that blanks and ballots for persons other than the two highest, be not taken into consideration; but that the person having the greatest number of votes be elected. Mr. PATTERSON doubted the power of the majority to dictate who the minority should vote for. Here were four votes for Mr. Loomis. He doubted the power of the Conrention to compel those voting for Mr. L., to vote for one of the two highest or lose their votes. He thought thle largest liberty would be given here. Mr. HARRIS thought we had spent time enoughl in balloting —as much as would be found profitable. He aplprehended there could be no doubt as to what the result of another ballot would be; anl to dispose of the question, he moved a reconsideration of the vote directing a ballot-in order that the resolution of the gentleman from Allegany might be in order alferwards. The vote ordering a ballot was reconsidered, 56 to 42. Mr. MURPHY rose to a point of order-quot. ing the 18th rule-by which a motion to reconsider could not be taken on the same day on wliich tlhe vote to be reconsidered was taken, unless by unanimous consent. Mr. JONES insisted that unanimous consent was impliedly given-and the vote on reconsider ing taken. Mr. MURPHY: No sir, there was a strong vole in tlle negative. The PRESII)ENT ruled tile objection well taken hlad it been stated before the Ilaestion was put and the result announced. Now. it was too late. Mr. WORDEN moved to amend t1he resolution by striking out tIle name of Mr. SE}:;:R aand in. serting the name of Mr. PRINDLE-a nd called for the ayes and noes. The aye noes were ordered. Mr. SHEPARD called for a division of tile question. Mr. WORDEN tlen called for the ayes and noes on striking out, and they were ordered. The question on striking out was put and negatived, ayes 49, noes 65, as follows: AY1E-Messrs. Arclier, Ayrault, F. F. alckus, IT. Backus, Baker, Bascom, Brayton, Flri-ce, Bull, Burr, Candee, Cook, l)ana,. Dodd, Fitiuders, For.ylh, Gobhard, Graham, 1arris, Harrison, Hawley, Hoflma,, E. Huntington, Jord in, Kennedy, Kirklanld, XVal vin, Nicholas, Parish, Patterson, Penniman, Por er, Ilhoades, R chmond, Salisbury, ihaver, silmons, E. Spencerr, W.1ll -pener, Stow, strong, Tallmadge, Tuthill, Van Schoonhoven,Warren, Waterbury, W'o. den, A. W rihlt, A. W. Young- 49. NAYS-Messrs. Allen, Angel, Pergen, Vorck, Bow. dish, Brown, Cambreleng, D.D Campbell,;. Campbell jr., Chamberlaill, ( hatfield. Clark, c lyde, ( ornell, D.tnlrlh, Dubois, Gardner, Greene, Hart, Hotcellhss, Hunt, A. Huntlington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jones, Kecm. ble, Kernan, Kings ey, Loomis, Mann, iicNeil, MNlcNit, Maxwell, iMorris, Murphy, Nicoll, (4'Conor, Perkins, Powers, Riker,:riggles, Hussell. St John,.anford, sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Stanton, Mtevens, Stetson,.wackhamer, 'aft, J J. 'aylor, W. Tat lor, Til. den, Townseud, Vache, Ward, White, Willard, VWood, Yawger, J. Youngs, the President-65. The question was then anounced to be on Mr. CHAM1BERLAIN'S resolution. Mr. WORDEN hoped the gentleman from Allegany would now withdraw the call for the ayes and noes on his resolution-for, from tile state of the vote just taken, as well as other in. dications, lie apprehended we should find no difficulty now in hitting on the name of Mr. Seger. Mr. W. should vote for him with great pleasure, as one of the Secretaries ol this Convention. Mr. CHAMBERLAIN withdrew the call for the ayes and noes, and The resolution appointing Mr. SEGER was adopted, with but one or two dissenting voices. The PRESIDENT tlhereupon announced the appointment of FRANCIS SEGER as one of the Secretaries of the Convention. Mr. DODD offered the following: Resolved, That when this Convention adjourns, it will adjourn to meet on Monday morning at - o'clock. Mr. PATTERSON moved an adjournment. It was about dinner time. The Convention adjourned, 54 to 52, to 11 o'clock to-morrow morning. 67 SATURDAY, JUNE 13. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. BENSON. RIGHTS OF CITiZENS, &c., LAW OF LIBEL. Mr. O'CONOR submitted the following which was adopted: — Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the rights and privileges of citizens of this state, to conwider the propriety of securing to members of this state, by constitutional provision, the following ri hts apd privileges, to wit:1st A right to th i accused in all criminal cases, and in all actions or proceedings for penalties or forfeitures, to waive a trial by jury and submit himself to trial by the court. 2nd. A right to the accused in all impeachments, criminal c ises, and actions or proceedings for penalties or forfeitures or for misconduct in office, to make a final reply to the iprosecutor on all questions of law or fict. 3rd. The right of perem;tory challenge to persons drawn as jurors to the extent now allowed by law; atid a like right to the accused in all criminal cases, and in all actions and proceedings for penalties or forfeitures to the extent of live challenges, and a like right to each party in all other civil causes, to the extent of one cha Ilenge. 4 h. 'I he exemption of every person from being compelled to be a witness against himself in any case, for the purpose of subjecting him to a penalty or forfeiture, or any loss or deprivation in the nature of a pen ally or forfeiture. Resolved, That it be referred to the same committee to consider the propriety of amending the last sentence of the Sth section of the 7th article of the constitution of this state, so that the same shall read as follows:"' In all proer utions or indictments f r libel, the truth my be given in evidence to the jury; and if it shall applar to the jury thtt the matter charged as libellous is trite and was published with go!:d motives and for justifiahle ends, the party shall be acquitted-atid in favor of such acquit'al, tle jury shall have the right to determine the law as well as the fact. SURROGATES. Mr. J. J. TAYLOR, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the judiciary to enquire into the expediency of making the office of surrogate a salaried office, and of transferi iig to that officer in the several counties jurisdiction of chancery foreclosures of mortgages in cases not contested-applications for leave to sell real estate of in ants-the care of the estates of lunatics, idiots and habitual drunkards-and such other powers of the court of chancery as Inay be properly, anti more cheaply or more expeditiously, ex-rcised by a local judge. I.NDIAN bUFFRAGE. Mr. RICHMOND, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on the elective franchise, be and they arc hereby instructed to enquire and report on the stbject of extending the right of suffrage to the Indians residing in this state LOCAL OFFICES. Mr. ANGEL, the following, which was adopted:Resolved. That the Secretary of State be requested to fruish for the use of this Convent ion, so tbr forth as he ma'y be able, a full statement or list of all offices in this state, the duties of which are local, their respective tenures ind the respective powers, duties and compensation of their incuirneuts. l'ER:ONAL LIABILITY. Mr. SHELDON, the fo'lowing which was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on banks to enquire into the expediency of making ir a constitu tional provision that the stockholders of hanks and other moneyed incorporations -hall be individu. ally liable for the debts of Ueir respective eorpurationas Mr. RUSSELL moved the printing of ten times the usual number of the list of standing committees. Agreed to. THE SALT SPRINGS. Mr.RHOADES submitted the following,which was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on canals, &c. to inquire into the expediency of amending the constitution in relation to tite powers and duties of the legislature in regard to the lands belonging to the state contiguous to the salt springs. CLERGYMEN. Mr. BOWDISH, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on the e'ective franchise, &c., be directed to enquire into the expediency of extending to clergymen all the political rights, privileges and immunities that are enjoyed by other citizens of this state, and of imposing on them an equal proportion of the taxation necessary to the sup. port of government, THE TWO-THIRD CLAUSE. Mr. ALLEN, the following. which was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the comimittee on incorporations, to enquire and report on the expediency of abolishing the two-third voe on incorporations, and substituting therefor a majority of all the members elected. ASSESSMENTS OF PERSONAL PROPERTY. Mr. RUGGLES, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on the powers of counties, &c be d rected to enqcire into the expediency of requiring the legislature to male further a a.sore effectual provision than now exis's, for ascertaining the value ot the personal estate of each inuividual by the assessors for the purpose of taxation., PRIVILEGES OF ELECTORS. Mr. STOW offered the following:Resolved, That the committee on the elective franchise, &c., be instructed to enquire into the expediency of securing to every elector the privilege of holding a certain amount of teal estate, owned by him, or in which he has a I ermanent interest, of not less than - dollars in value, and not more than — dollars in value; that such property be described andt registered; and that the same shall not be encumbered by or for any debt contracted or created by such elector after such registry and a reasonable publication or notice thereof: Mr STOW explained. It was not a new qual. ification, which he suggested for reference, but a privilege-not with reference to present deLts but to debts contracted after description and publicity. Mr. KENNEDY suggested that it should go to the committee on the rights and privileges of citizens. Mr. STOW understood himself better. He did not propose to confer this privilege on all, but to make it a mark of honor, of character, and distinction, between the electors of this re. )lic and those who were not either from choice or infamy, voters. Mr. STRONG apprehended, when he first heard the resolution read, that it was in the nature of a reform he had heard of-that the far. iners should give off a part of their farms to the lawyers. [A laugh.] But he presumed now that was not ihe mover's intention. If such a proposition was brought in, he should like the 68 privilege of saying a word or two on it, He did not know that he should be against it. He would not promise. Mr. STOW would relieve the gentleman on that point. He proposed to give him (Mr. STRONG) a little law on this subject. Mr. STow's resolution was adopted. THE SALT DUTY. Mr. W. TAYLOR ollered the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on canals, &c., to etquire into the expediency of providing that the duty on salt shall not exceed one cent per bushel as now fixed by law. RIGHTS OF WIDOWS AND ORPHANS. tion, but for reference merely to committees. It was the form he preferred, and had suggested in a resolution he offered the other day. After some further conversation, the propositions were referred. EXPENSE OF REGISTRATION. Mr. KENNEDY offered the following, which was adopted - Resolved, That the secretaries address a communication to the Comptroller of ihe city and county of New York, requesting him to transmit a statement of the expense incurred by said city and county, during the years '40 and '41, under the act of 1810, providing for a registry ol the voters ot said city and county. TiE SALT DUiY. -- - - --- - - - Mr. WATERBURY, the following, which Mr. St. JOHN, the following, which was was adonted- adopted:-...... I.. esolved, That the. rights and privileges of widows and orphan children be referred to the Lith committee (on the tights of citizens) to report theieon. RATE OF INTEREST. Mr. DANA, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on the powers and duties of the legis a ure, except, ac, inquire into the expediency of making it a onstitutional provision that the rate of interest in this state shall not exceed six per cent. NEGRO SUFRAGE. Mr. A. W. YOUNG, the following, which was adopted: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the elective franchise to inquire into the expediency of extending to colored citizens the right of suffrage, and of abolishing entirely the propeity qualification. THE CANALS. Mr. CHAMBERLAIN, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on canals, &c., report to this convention whether in their judgment it is ex. pedient to make constitutional provision for the corn pletion of the unfinished can ils of this state, including the Erie canal enlargement-and if they should advise that such provision is inexpedient, that they report whit ac ion would be necessary lor this coivention to take in relation to said canals TAXATION OF FOREIGNERS-RBU-IVESS OF THE COURTS —NON-IM.PKIISONMENT FUR DEBT. Mr. MORRIS offered the following:Proposed, That there be incorporated into the constitution, authority to appoint a special commission to di,,p se of the unfinished business that lias accumulated in the courts of law and equity. Proposed, 'hat there be incorporated in the constitution the principle of taxation on foreign residents, after they shall have resided in this state for a time sufficient to become citizens. Proposed, That the principle of non-imprisonment for debt, be incorporated in the constitution. Mr. MORRIS said the first proposition was intended to reach certain worthy gentlemen who passed their whole lives in this country, accumulated large fortunes, and contributed nothing to the support of the government. The second was designed to clear away the business that had accumulated in our courts-that the new courts to be organized might not be broken down by it in the onset. He moved the appro. priate reference of these propositions severally. Mr. MARVIN suggested that the form of the propositions ought to be changed, to avoid a committal o the body, on a vote of reference. Mr. MORRIS replied that the propositions were his own, and offered on his own personal vftw*iAibility-not to be adopted by the Conven. Resolved, That the committee on canals, &c., be in. structed to inquire and report on the expediency of entirely abolishing the duty on s-alt. CONTRACTS WITH THE STATE. Mr. CHATFIELD, the following, which was adopted: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on canals, &c., to inquire into the expediency o' requiring all contracts made with the people of this state to be in wriing, and prohibiting the s:ate agents and officers from altering or varying the same unless authorized so to do by a law specitying the alteration; and pro. hibiting the annulling or surrender of any such contract, except by a judicial determination or decree. Arid also of prohibiting all extra-;.llowances, gifts or compensation t;eyond the prices specified in siuch contracts, except by the judgment or sentence of an appropriate judicial tribunal. USURY LAWS. Mr. CONELY, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the comn ittee on the powers and duties of the legislature to inquire into the propriety of prohibiting the le.,islature from pas. sing usury laws. BETTING ON ELECTIONS. Mr. ANGEL, the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on the elective franchise be instructed to inquire into the expediency of checking by constitutional provision the practice of betting on elections, by su pending the right of every person to vote who shall have a btht in any form penld ing on the result of the election at which he offers to vote; a d that said committee do also inquire inwo ihe expediency of disqualifying every pers( n trorn voting at elections and from"holding any office of trust or profit, who shall have been duly convicted by a jury of the country of bribing uiny elector to vote, at any pres. idential, congressional, state, county, city, ward or town election. THE DUTY OF COIMITTEIlS. Mr. BAKER submitted the following:Resolved, That in the opinion of this Convention, it will be inxpeiiett for the several committees on the const tution, to accompany their reports witl written explanations of the reasons which may have intiuenced them in agreeing thereto. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to lay the reso. lution on the table. The motion was lost, 29 to 35. Mr. TALLMADGE hoped the matter would be left to the discretion of the committees. It would not be advisable, in all cases, to have elaborate reports on the propositions that com. mittees might adopt, as gentlemen on the committee might have diverse reasons for coming tr the same conclusions, and so might members ol the Convention, when they came to act on them 69 He was the first member of the Convention of 1821, to make a report, and he adopted the course of not accompanying the proposition re. ported with reasons for its adoption. Mr. BROWN thought the resolution ought not to be adopted and he expected it would not. He did not mean to discuss it at length. He presumed that there was a general sentiment prevailing in this Convention against accompaznying subjects that might be brought before tlem, with elaborate reports, and gentlemen %xould see the propriety of this; but still he thought they should reserve the right to report or remain silent as they pleased. Suppose a case of this kind. Suppose the committees should differ as to the propriety of the provisions reported. Should the minority and the majority of the committee be precluded from as. signing reasons for this difference? Would it not be better to leave it open to the committees to give the reasons or not as they pleased which led them to their conclusions? Now here was the judiciary committee-a large and important committee, having subjects committed to them of a diversified and important character; so far as he had yet been able to learn, it would not surprise him if that committee should report unanimously; still, it would not be surprising, if by and by they should be found to differ, and the gentlemen on that committee should choose to submit two distinct propositions-one by the majority and another by a minority. Would it not in such a case be proper and advantageous to the Convention, to know the reasous which led them to differ on questions of such importance? If this resolution were to pass, he should take it as a clear intimation that the Convention expected no reasons to be given, and he desired that it should be left to the discretion of the committees; because he believed they would be the better able to exercise a prudent discretion if it were lelt to them, than if they were embarrassed by an expression of the opinion of the Convention. But there was another point of view of which he trusted gentlemen would not lose sight. It was this-that the action of the Con. vention in regard to constitutional amendments would not be conclusive. They did not settle the matter. Ours was not like a legislative act which went abroad with the force of law in full vigor, and remained so until repealed bya future legislature. All we should ultimately propose must be submitted to the people; and he trusted if any committee reported important amend. ments to the constitution, that they would feel it incumbent on them either to accompany their proposition with a report or with such an expla. nation on this floor as would clearly elucidate the change proposed, and the reasons which prompted it. Although he would not encourage elaborate and lengthy reports in all cases, in his judgment the committees should be left to their own judgment. If they could give their reasons better on paper than in a speech on this floor, he hoped they would be left at liberty to do so. There were a great many gentlemen there who were not accustomed to debating, and whose ability lay in committing their thoughts to paper and in the use of the pen; and it those gentle. men could better assign their reasons in the form of a report, it was their duty to do so, and let them go forth so that the people might see the reasons and arguments whith led them to their conclusions. Mr. PERKINS did not wish to debate this matter, but he would take occasion to say that there were some committees that would arrive at their conclusions by the aid ol statistics, and unless these statistical details could be brought before the Convention in an official form, they would be passed by, unless some paper should choose to publish them, and they could thus be got before the Convention. He apprehended there would be some statistical details which the Convention might feel it to be its duty to publish and thus throw them belore the public as the reasons for their action. Elaborate reasoning from a committee would not perhaps be desirable; but he hoped they would not be cut,ff from the publication of matters of fact and statistical details from official sources, for the in. formation of the people. Mr. WORDEN confessed that before his friend from Orange entered upon his argument he was inclined to oppose the adoption of the resolution; but a suggestion fell from that gen. tleman,which operated to change his mind on the subject. The remarks of the g:ntleman from St. Lawrence had also tended to strengthen that conclusion. It was true that the result of their deliberations was to go forth to the people who were to judge finally upon the Constitution to be framed; and in reference to the facts and reasons to which allusion hal been made. if they were to be of any sort of importance:o the public-if they were to be gathered together and sent forth for any practical purpose, it was to influence the public mind in regard to the result of the deliberations of this Cor!vention. NoW he had too much regard for the public intelli. gence to suppose that tIhe people could not for themselves investigate ll necessary facts that affect the conclusions which the Convention should present. It they should send forth facts of an erroneous character, and statistics that were not altogether true in point of fact, or inferences that were not legitimately to be drawn from those facts, it might, instead of leading the public mind to correct conclusions, lead to most erroneous ones. Hie did not understand that it would be necessary for the public to come to them for facts to enable them to make up a judgment, and he did not wish to take a position here in the outset that would show that we thought it necessary to fortify our con. clusions with facts in support of the constitution which we should present for adoption. He apprehended this mode of reporting, and of publishing facts, to go forth with our endorsement would lead rather to mischief than anything else. He would give to the people the result of our deliberations, calmly; and he would leave to the public mind the formation of its own judgment on the constitution they should present. He would not stand here in an atti. tude of distrust of the people, nor would he seek to fortify the result of our deliberations by a species of ex parte argument or a statement of facts. For these reasons he thought it would be neither wise nor expedient that their reports should be accompanied with written arguments and statements of fact, for they would 70 necessarily be one sided. He did not assert that they would be party-wise, but they would par. take of ex-parte and one sided views of the case. They would not be documents that would present, perhaps a full view. They would be the arguments of individuals in favor of their own conclusions, and they ought not to be en. dorsed by the Convention and sent forth as the facts and arguments on what they acted. Mr. CHATFIELD felt constrained to differ with his friend from Orange (Mr. BROWN).Even before this resolution was offered, he had embodied the same views in a resolution which he had intended to offer. He was persuaded that the better and the wiser course was, to leave all the arguments that would be embodied in these reports, to be made here in debate, in which all who desired might participate, and where all would have an opportunity to judge between ihe conflicting views that might be presented. The gentleman from Dutchess (Mr. TALLMADGE) had presented some conclusive reasons why this resolution should be adopted; and there was a strong argument also to be found in the consideration that the Judiciary to be organised under the new Constitution, would be influenced in their opinions by the arguments that might be sanctioned here, when they came to give a construction to the Constitution here. after. Now he should like to have the Constitution go down to the judiciary, without such an interpretation as the reports of committees might give to it. There was at all times more oi less authority in tht report of a standing committee, which it was difficult to resist. He vwould therefore give no authority to the committees to give, in detail, through the medium of a report, views and arguments, to influence the minds of either the members here, or the people elsewhere. There had been an allusion made to the judiciary committee-a committee composed of the strongest minds and the most lowering intellects. Any conclusion to which that committee might come, would derive force almost irresistible, from the standing and position of that committee, without giving them the additional advantage of presenting here a written report. If, when they presented the result of their labors to the Convention, any members of that committee desired to sustain or explain their conclusions, let them do it with the sole advantage of their speaking talent. It was not true that gentlemen would not in that way be able to make themselves fully understood on both siles. There was no gentleman here who would not be able to give a reason for the hope that was in him. If, however, they distrusted themselves, let them write out their remarks in the form a speech, and submit them to the Convention; for any gentleman who could write a report, would find no difficulty in writing a speech. But the gentleman from Ontario had alluded to another reason-that these reports should not go to the people under the sanction of this Convention, with the view of influencing their action in adopting or rejecting the Constitution. At the time of the adoption of the federal constitution, from the then state of public opinion it was extremely doubtful whether it would be adopted by a majority of the states; but the strong minds, tongues and pens of the nation, put forth Herculean efforts to secure that, desirable result, and the luminous and conclusive expositions of the various parts of that instru. ment by Madison, Hamilton and Jay, were sub. sequently collected into a volume, and compose the Federalist. He desired that the same course might be taken here-that the constitution which we should form might be lelt to the advocacy of the people, and that its expositions might be drawn from its context, uncontrolled by the reports of committees, and the people left at full liberty to adopt or reject it, judging it by its own merits. Believing this resolution right in principle, he felt constrained to give it his support. The question was then taken, and Mr. BA KER'S resolution was adopted. ELECTION DISIRICTS. Mr. BAKER submitted the following, and it was adopted-sayir;g that neither the map before the Convention, nor the returns in the Secretary's office, furnished information as to the population of the election districts:l:esolved, That th- secretaries be directed to request the county c'erk of the city and county ofNei -York to furnish Ihis Convention with a statenent of the searate popula ion of each election district therein, toge. ther with a description of such district by boundaries. JUSTICES' COURTS-APPEALS. Mr. RICHMOND offered the following, and it was adopted:Resolved, That it-be referred to the committee on t' e judiciary to enquire into and report upon the propriety of h ving all appeals from judgimeuis in justices' courts anounting to $50 or:under, wheie the parties reside in the same town, finally deciled by an appeal ti aL town court to be composed of all justices of the peace of said town. RENT CHARGES, &c. Mr. JORDAN offered the following, and it was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the creation and division of estates in lands, to enquire into the expediency of prohibiting by constitutitonal provision, the future creation of any estates in lands, re-erving rents in fee, or for life, or lor any longrr term than - years: also, all cove,,nlts for quarter or ten h sales, and a l other covenants in reatraint of alienation, and of forfeiture. DISTRICT ATTORNEYS. Mr. HAWLEY offered the following and it was adopted. Resolved, That the Secretaries of the Convention be reques ed to call upon the D strict Attorneys of,he several counties of tils state for answers to the following interrogatories:1. What is the amount of bail bonds and recognizan. ces forfeited in your county in the Court of tOyer and Terminer and of General Sessions, during the year 1845 2. What is the amount of recognizances upon which suits were commenced by you diring the year 18b6. 3 What is the aggregate amnount which has been recovered in such suits,-the hggr, gate amount of damages and costs being separately stated. 4 What is the aggregate;timounit which has been collected in such suits Irom the defendant theieiis. 5. What is the aggregate amount of (:gsts aid counsel fees connected with such suits which has been paid by or chargvd to the county or to the i eople RETROSPECTIVE LEGISLATION. Mr. RHOADES offered the following and it was adopted. V eolved, That it be referred to the corrmittee on the Juldiciary to enquire into the expediency ol amtentling the constitution so ias to prohibit the legislatu e from passing any law which shall suspend or alter any of 71 the legal or equitable remedies for the collection of deb;s acld the enforcenent of contracts so as to optrate retrospectively. JUDICIAL DISTRICTS, &c. Mr. GARDNER submitted the following, and it was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on the judiciary inqui.e into the expediency of dividing the state into jucicial districts. loca ing in each district a proportionate part of the jud ciary of the state-providing for the election of all judicial officers of the state by constituting the boards of supervisors of the counties in each ditri. t,t hoard of electors for the purpose, requiring the majority of the who e for a choice, and creating a board of i allnvssers to be composed of a delegation from each bord of supervisors, and in case of no choice, such boa d of canvassers to have power to elect from the whole number voted for by the supervisors. COUNTY OFFICERS-SHERIFF, &c. Mr. GARDNER offered the following, and it was adopted:Resolved. That th, committee on the election and powers of local officers be directed to inquire into the expediency of abolishing the office of sheriff, under sheriff and deputies, superintendents of the poor and common schools, and of providing for the election of a single officer il each county cthirged with the duty of the offic-s so abolished, and wiih such other powers and dutit-s as may be conferred by law, at,d to have the aid of the const - bes of the towns in the service of process, and as the general peace officer of the county. Mr. RUSSELL here gave notice that he should on Monday, the 22d inst., move a reconsideration of the vote adopting Mr. BAKER'S proposition in regard to the reports of committees. PAY OF THE LEGISLATURE. Mr. TOWNSEND offered the following, and it was adopted:Resolved, That the first standing committee be instructed to enquire into the expediency of giving to the members of the legislature a stated annual salary in place of a per diern allowance. Mr J. J. TAYLOR offered the following, and it was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the apportionment, election, &c, of the legislature, to enquire into the expediency of encouraging short sessions i(f the legislature by reducing the pay of the members after a session shall have continued a stated period of time. COURTS OF EQUITY Mr. BASCOM offered the following, which was laid on the table and ordered to be printed -- Kesolved, That the committee on the judiciary be instructed to report such a judiciary system as will render unnecessary the further continuance of tribunals of exclusive equity or chancery jurisdiction. Mr. O'CONOR here rose, saying that he held in his hand a proposed judicial system for the state, which had been sent to him by one of the most distinguished of our constituents, and which Mr.O'C. desired to present under the au. thority of that citizen's name-not as his own, in all respects. He offered the following:lResolved, That the plan of a judicial system herewith presented, be printed for the use of the Convention, and referred to the committee on the judiciary. Mr. MORRIS doubted whether it would be best to commence printing all these plans that might be presented. lie had three or four at his room, from highly respectable gentlemen; and there was scarcely a clever man in any part of the state who had not fully matured a judicial system. Certainly until the committee had examined it, it should not be printed Mr. PERKINS suggested that others besides the conmmittee might like to look at these plans. Mr. RUSSELL took a similar view of the question-urging that individual members of the Convention ought to have before them also, matured plans of this sort, and from such high sources, which went to the committee. Mr. MORRIS waived any objection of his own to the printine of the plan. Mr. RUSSELL only added that as a matter of economy; it would be better to have the paper printed than read from the desk. Mr. BAKER suggested that if we printed this plan, without knowing whose it was, we coald not well avoid printing all the plans of the 30 or 40 gentlemen in and out of the convention, who ha busied themselves in adjusting a judicial system-and 'his would only lumber up our desks and add vastly to the expenses of this body. Mr. PATTERSON suggested that every thing presented in the manner in which this was would have to be spread out on the journal of course, else it would not appear what the paper accompanying the resolution was, or what was ordered to be printed. Again, having thus gone on the journal at length, to order the printing, as proposed, would carry it on the documents also, and thus we should have it printed twice over, or in two forms. He suggested that the paper should be presented as a petition-then the substance of it would go on the journal; and the paper itself go to the judiciary committee. This suggestion, alter some conversation between Messrs. MARVIN, PATTERSON, LOOMIS and O'CONOR, was substantially ac ceded to. AdJourned to Monday morning at 9 o'clock. MONDAY, JUNE 15. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. BRITTON. i would be therefore necessary to make some pro RETURNS FROM COU'TY CLERKS, SURROGATES, ii for their disposition. AND cLEIKS OF SUPIEME COURTS. Mr. CHATFIELD thought it would be advi. The PRESIDENT stated that the Secretaries sable to raise a standing committee, to whom had received many returns from county clerks, these returns should be referred, for the purpose surrogates, and supreme court clerks, in answer of arranging them, and preparing an abstract to interrogatories which had been sent, in obe- thereof for the use of the Convention. He dienee to a resolution of the Convention; and therefore moved that a committee of five be others might be expected to come in daily.. It raised, to whom the returns now received, and 72 those hereafter to be received, shall be referred. Mr. PERKINS said these returns all related to the judiciary system, and therefore they should go to the committee on the judiciary. — They were desired for the use of that committee, and should take that direction, where they could be digested, or that committee might direct the Secretaries to digest t;tem. But a committee not connected with the judiciary committee, would scarcely know for what uses or purposes these returns would be wanted by the committee on the judiciary. Mr. PATTERSON suggested that they should go to the seventh standing committee, on the appointment or election of officers, whose powers and duties are local. Mr. KIRKLAND said these returns were not for the exclusive use of the judiciary committee as the gentleman from St. Lawrence seemed to imagine, but for the entire Convention. The judiciary committee he was of opinion would have enough to do without arranging these papers, and hence he was in favor of the motion of the gentleman from Otsego, to raise a special committee whose business it shall be to put them in proper form so that they shall be intelligible to the Convention. Mr. JORDAN thought as these returns, as received, would be in an unmanageable form for the judiciary committee,that the special committee should be appointed as was suggested to prepare a digest of them and give to the committee in a compact form all the information which those returns might contain. The motion was agreed to. NON-IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BUT FOR FRAUD. Mr. TALLMADGE offered the following re. solution, which was referred:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the judiciary, to consider and report on the expediency of'incorporating into the constitution the principle of non-imprisonment for debt, and providing the right, in any suit for the collection of debt, to charge that there had been deception or fraud in the creation or contracting of the demand; and upon conviction thereof, the party defendant shall be liable to imprisonment, or such other personal liability as shall be provided by law. JUDICIARY SYSTEM. Mr. TALLMADGE said he had received from a gentleman of great respectability in a western county of this state a new system of judiciary, which, without reading, he would ask to have referred to the committee on the judiciary. A conversation arose respecting the manner in which such papersswould appear on the journal-whether at length or the endorsement only -in which Mr. STRONG, Mr. TALLMADGE, Mr. JONES, Mr. HOFFMAN, Mr. WORDEN, Mr. MARVIN, Mr. HAWLEY and Mr. PAT. TERSON took part. The paper was then referred- a. JUDICIAL DISTRICTS. Mr. TALLMADGE submitted the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the judiciary to inquire into the propriety of adopting as ia principle in the judiciary system that the state he divided into four districts; that a supreme court be established in each, of not less than three judges; jurisdiction, law and equity i the judges tohold circuits: the term of office to be not less than 7 nor more than 10 years; to be ineligible to hold or take any other office or ommissiona during the term; or Eo have the power of appointing any other officers, or to receive pay or fees o'her than the salary aliowed bv law. If a sep,rate court (of chancery bte est:ibli-tied its chancellor to hold fur the s mrne teriln ol tot le-s than 7 nor mrore than 10 yea s; and to be -ubject to like in. eligibility t, hold or take office durilg file teril),;tml the like restrictions as the above judges. The jiiudes or chancellor- to be elected in the state or district of their jurisdicti n. A court for the correction of rrors to be estab'ished, to consist of 7 judges; ilie juristliction, appeals and writs of error; the term of office to be 7 years; ineligibility and restrictionis as above stated. 'lhe judges to be appointed by the (iovernor and enuate. The county cou ts to be continued. A jiude to hold for a term ot 4 years; several counties Imay be etbraced i his jurisaiction. Also, to try issues referred fr,m supreme couit. The same ineligibili:y and restrictioi,s as befire mentioned To be elected in the county or d;strict of his jurisdiction. PRIVATE ROADS AND tRIDGES Mr. NELLIS offered the following resolution which was adopted: Resolved, That, the committee on the rights and privileges of citizens be directed to cons der and report on the propriety and necessity of incorporating in the constitution some provision authorizing private loads and bridges to be cotistructed ci just corllpetnstion bFiing made to the owner or owners of the lands taken fur these purposes. FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE. Mr. CORNELL offered the following, which was adopted: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the rights and privileges of citizens of this state, to inquire into the expediency of milking constitmuional provision to secure the practical enjoymtent of perfect liberty of conscience, opinion and belief to all perso s within the jurisdiction of this state, and to iprohibit all political and c vil disabilities ou account thereof or in connection therewith. EDUCATIONAL FUNDS-COMMON SCHOOLS. Mr. R. CAMPBELL offered the two following, which were adopted: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on education, &c., to consider and report as to the propriety of constitutional provision for the security of the common school, literature, deposite and other trust funds, from conversion or destruction by the legislature, and the establishment of such a system of common schools as will, by taxation, bestow the facility of acquiring a good education on every child in the state. TAXATION. Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on the powers and dities of the legislatnre. except, tc to consider snd report as to the propriety of requiring by constitutional provision, that all property within this state protected by its laws, except that which belongs to the people of this state, shall be assessed for taxation equally and at its intrinsic value. PRACTICE OF COURTS. Mr. STOW offered the following which was adopted: Resolved, That the judiciary committee be instructed to inquire into the expe iency of providing for the appointment of a commission to revise the system ol practice and proceedings of the courts. BIENNIAL SESSIONS. Mr. CORNELL offered the following which was adopted: Resolved, That it be referred to the committee om the apportionment &c. of the legislature, to inquire into the expediency of providing for biennial sesionl of the legislature. PRACTICE OF THE LAW. Mr. STRONG offered the following whici was adopted; 73 Resolved, That the committee on rights and privil.' the Convention would not sanction a resolution eges be instructed to inquire into the expediency of re- hich was contrary to all principles of justice, which was contrary to all principles of justice, serving to thle peoptl taheir dormant right of. freely choosing their counsel and altorneys in ill courts o lreedom, and right IatYv, witi the like fre'edom from state interferemne that The question was taken on each resolution they now enjoy in the selection of their spiritual ad- separately and they were negatived. visers, and of their legislators, delegates and govern ors; so that the anti-republican usage by means of COMPtLETION OF CANALS. which a close and gainful monopoly of the legal prac- Mr AYR AULT offered the following and it lice has hitherto been secured to a wvell organized or- RAULT ofered the following, and it der if' licensed i,'vocates and solicitors to the exclu- was adopted:sion of the rest of community, may speedily ciase Resolved, That it be referred to the third standing I ENTE DISTRPCTS. comtli tee to enquire into the propriety of making conS.NGLE stitutional provision for the complet on (,A the ufiln. Mr. CHATFIELD offered the following isled canals, by appropriating tile revenues arising, which was adopted: and to arise, from said canals. Resolved, That it be referred to the committee on RAILWAY ASSOCIATIONS. the apportionme t, &c of the legislature, to inquire Mr. LOOMIS presenta plan for formin into lhe expe iency of increasing the number of sea-S presented a lan for forming lors to 48 and diviling the state into single districts- railway associations, by a citizen of this state, the senators to be e ec;ed biennially and to hold their which on his motion was referred to the commit. offices for two years.' tee on incorporations, &c. JOURNALIZING OF PAPERS PRESENTED. PRINTING OF DOCUMENTS. Mr. HAWLEY offered the following rule to Mr. A. WRIGHT called the attention of the settle the practice of journalizing papers,projets, Convention to the propriety of ordering the and documents, which had already occasioned printing of a greater number of the documents some discussion this morning and on a previous of the Convention than they now received, and occasion:- he offered a resolution, which was amended on Resolved, That every member, previous to present the motion of Mr. PERKINS and then adopted lng a petition, memorial, or proposition for an amend- as follows, after a conversation in which seve. ment of the constitution, shall endorse on the same tihe suistance thereof, and add ils name; and on the re-al gentlemen took part: ceptiot or reference of such petition, &c, the eudorse- Resolved, That the usual number of reports of com. meint only shall be entered on the journal. mittees andt propositions of amendments to the constitutio I, for the purpose of printing, he fixed at 3o0t; and COMMITTEE ON RESOLUTIONS. whenever more than the usual number is ordered to be Mr. SHAW offered the following resolution: printed, the specific number shall be meitioned. Resolved, That for the purpose of expediting busi. ABOLITION OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. ness an i producing uniforinily, that a committee of five be appointed by the President, to which shall b Mr. CONELY offered the following and it referre I all resolutions intended for the stan,!ins. cornm was adopted:mi tees, and whose duty it shall be to adjust and ar- Resolved, That it be referre to the committee on range them and refer them to the approptiate standing the powers and duties of the legislature, to inquire incommittees. to atld take into consideration the propriety of making Mr. RICHMOND hoped the resolution would constitutional provision for the abolition of capital not be adopted. He thought all resolutions punishie1ti should go to committees directly from this body. THE PARDONING POWER. IHe was not willing to give such a power to any Mr. CONELY offered the following which committee. was adopted: Mr. TOWNSEND concurred with the gentle. Reso!ved, That it be referred to the 6th standing man from Genesee. He hoped every facility committee, to take into consideration the propriety to would be given to gentlemen to present their the pardng po he Governor with the plans and views here rather than discourage PRIVILEGt S OF ELE CTORe S them by restrictions. By such a course the Mr STOW said on Saturday he submitted a Convention became possessed of the reforms Mr. ST OW sai d on Saturday he submitted a which gentlemen contemplated and of much val* aresolution instructing the committee on the elec. uable information. tive franchise to enquire into the expediency of MriSHAW sai probably another resolution securing to every elector the privilege of holding which he intended to offer, if read, would ex- a certain amount of real estate owned by him plain his purpose and remove the objections or in which he had a permanent interest, that of gentlemen. such property might be described and regiter. The Secretary read it as follows:- ed, anti that it should not be incumbered b) or Resolved, That all r-solutions and propositions in. for any debt contracted or created by such ele tended for standing committees be sent to the presi- tor after such registry, and a reasonable publi. dent, read by the clerk, and referred to the select corn- cation or notice thereof. That resolution it amitee of five, without motion or debate, if no objec- seemed to him had been misunderstood; some tion is umade. gentlemen seemed to be apprehensive that it was Mr. STRONG said the last resolution was de- aimed at the security of property, and that it scriptive of what they had been doing and he was nothing less than agrarianism; he there. thought was unnecessary; but to the first reso- fore took occasion to say in explanation that he lution he objected because it would give to the had brought it up for the benefit of the masses. committee of' 5 power to reject papers and there. He thought they should connect a greater nunm by prevent their going tocommittees. This was ber of the people with property, and hence his too dangerous a power to be vested in any com~r resolution which he was of opinion was in fa. mittee. It was not democratic-and he profes. vor of humanity. That there might be no sed to be democratic-(laughter)-and there. further misunderstanding he moved that his res, fore he could not give it his support. He hoped olutiot be printed which was agreed!#. 74 NATURALIZATION LAWS. with the federal congress. He thought the sub. Mr. WORDEN offered the following: ject was one worthy of examination, and he deRes;olved, 'I hat the committee on the elective fran- sired'nothing more. And he only said this that chise, inquire into the exot(iiency of providilng in the his object might not be misunderstood in pre. costiitiul on fir the exerci-e of itie right of sufrge, senting the resolution. He thought it expedient so tl;it in no ins ance shltil the exercise of tidal tight; depe h-d in the itaturliz tihl ltaws oefcogr ss. th tat we should have a fixed rule of suffrage, as Mr. WORDEN said, as his fien fom Eiie r applicable to that class of persons called aliens Mr. WORDEN said, as his fr'iend from Erie -and that their right to vote should in no case had been so unfortunate as to be misonderstood, congress. depend on the action of the federal congress. hlie begged leave to say a word in regard to the resolution s adopted. resolution he had first offered, that he (Mr. W.) i might not be misunderstood As the constitu. Mr. CHATFIELD here remarked, that two tion now stood, the right of suffrage was con- or three members had submitted resolutions of ferred on citizens, but the constitution did notsay instruction, with the view of presenting their whether persons should be citizens of this state own opinions, and drawing out those of others, or of the United States. There was no provis- on matters connected with the new Constitution. ion in our constitution or law by which persons lie suggested that sone one of these resolutions could become oi be made citizens of this state, he now taken up, if the movers of them were as contradistinguished from citizens of the Uni. fnow prepared to discuss them. He would call te. States. We had virtually by our statutes for thatoffered by themember from Seneca (Mr. given a construction to the word citizens, as BASCOM)-as to the propriety of discontinuing used in our constitution, and we had held-or tribunals of exclusive equity jurisdiction. such was the law-that no person, not a natu- Mr. BASCOM said he had not intended to call ral born citizen, could become a citizen of this up his resolution to-day. It was offered merely state, except through the action of the feleral to have it lay on the ta ble-to be taken up when Congress. He desired to present the ques- the Convention might not have other business lion whether it would not be wise in us to before them —with a view to discussion. If the establish a rule in that respect, totally gentleman from Otsego desired to call it up, Mr. independent of the action of Congress. — B. had no objection. He did not move it him. As the matter now stood, Congress might en- self. large or restrict the period of residence neces- Mr. KIRKLAND thought it rather premature sary to citizenship, and in this way affect the to discuss so great a change as this proposed, interests of this Stale, or what might be sup. now Besides, this matter was before the posed to be its interests, an(d might legislate a- judiciary committee, and they would be ready to gainst the express will of the people of' this report no doubt within a reasonable time-and state. As to naturalization, it was early deci. perhaps no benefit could arise from a discussion, ded, under the federal constitution, that each before. state had the power to pass naturalization laws Mr. PATTERSON said h e should judge from for itself. At an early day the circuit court of indications that the grist was pretty much ground the U. S. for Pennsylvania, made that decision. out for to-day. He suggested that we adjourn. Subsequently, thtere were dicta to the contrarv If any more resolutions were to be offered, or in the Supreme Court of the United States. But any business to be done. let us have it. Per. more recently, an able and learned judge of this haps we might as well test the question-he court, now deceased, had classed this power to moved an adjournment. pass naturalization laws as among those powers The Convention adj. to 11 o'clock to-morrow which each state might exercise in connection morning. TUESDAY, JUNE 16. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. BRITTON. plete, but as an outline he wished it referred. COMMITTEE ON RETURNS. He read it as follows, and it was referred as The PRESIDENT announced the following desired: The PRESIDENT announced the following Resolved, That the judiciary committee consider the as the committee of five directed to be appointed propriety of the following propositions:yesterday, on the returns of clerks of courts and. 'I he division of the state into eight judicial cirsurrogates:-Messrs. J. J. TAYLOR, HAW- culits. LEY ST. JOHN, CANDEE and O'CONOR. 2 The establishment of three common law courts, Mr. R AES prsntd rtns fi- of general and concurrent jurisdiction, to c n ist of Mr. RHOADES presented returns from the ot than eight judges each, who shall be required clerk of the supreme court in the city of Albany to hold their termrs according to the demands oi b 1sifor the first six months of the year 1845, which ness, and with reference to its most speedy dispatch were referred to the committee of fivee. 3 The arrangement of the circuits so that no judge s hall h old court two consecutive terms for the same JUDICIARY SYSTEM. circuit Mr. SHEPARD said he had a proposition for 4. The establishment of practice courts, to b e hell1 a judiciary system, which lie wished to hiave re- bby the said.itdges, for the adjtdication of all qutes. a judiciary system, which he wishe d to ave re ions of practice, in the first instance, that may ariLe ferred to the committee on the judiciary. It did i n their respective courts not contain all the details he had heretofore h The hearing of certioraris and appeals from tie contemplated, inasmuch as some of them had justices' couit! before otie of the ges of oe of h been anticipated by other propositions which said common law courts, to be designated-which been anticipated by other propositions which hearing, and the decision thereon, shall bh final had been presented-it was therefore i 14com. 6. The hearing of certioraris to other officers, prwo thiuisand dollars: but he shall not receive aniy lt hier or further fees, perquisites or compftisat ion for,ny se vics performed by him a.i Attorey General The s'ate Epgineer ant s.urveyor shall be chosen at a general @leceion, and shall hold his office two yea rs; but no person -hall be e'ected to said office who is not a lyactical ca6imeer, and has not pursued civil engineering as a business or profession for seven suec cessive years next before his election He shall receive an annual salary of two thousand dollars and his necessary expeui es while travelling on official business on the liine ot the canals and public works of this s aite $ Three Canal Commissioners shall be chosen at the gereral election which shall he held next aftrr the adoptioin of this Coist tition, one of whorn shall hold his office for one year, one s.hall hold his i ffice for two years, and one shall ho'd his office for three years - The C;, rmisionters oh the Canal Fund shall m et at the Capitol on the first Monday of January next after such election, and determine by Ii wh c'h of said otitmissiotiers shall h'd his,thce fo,r one year. which I.r i wo yearsu and which lor three years, anmid tl:ere shall he elected annually i hereafter one Cana I Commiss oner, who shall hold his office three years. 'lhie ani.ual salary of' it Canal C('omm issiouter,h,ll be sixteen thun. dred dollars, and lis tnecessary expenses while travelling on the linie if the c:intls of this state on official buisiness as such commissioner.,S Three inspectors of -tate prisons, st:nll he elect. ed at the.en ral election which shatll e held next alt, r the -doption of this constituitiou, one of whomn shall hot i his omfire for one year, and one for two years, and one fo three years The 1iovernor, Secretary of.itdte' an d Complrotller shall meet at tih Cap tot (onI the first Monday of January niext succee. ing such 'tlectimi, and de ermine by lot which tif said i:spec'ors shall uhod his office for one year, which for two, and wh bh fur three years; and there shall be elected annually there. alter, one:n.pector of sta, tirisons who shall hold Iis office for three years; said inspectors shalt have the charge and siperimtendence of the state prisons, aind shall appoint a;ll the officers therein, and shal rt-eive four dollars e.ch for every day actually occupied in official duty at the prisons or ait the Calpitol, aiid ten c-nts for every mile actuia ly travelled on official Ibisi-. ne-s All v:,c ncies in the office of such inspector shall be filled by the Governor, iill the next elertion. $ The Lieu enant-(fovernor, S eaker of the Assumbly, Secret ry i f t te,:oriltroller, Treasurer, Attor. ney-General, and State Engineer aiid Surveyor,-shall be the Commissioners of he I,anid,ffice. The tieutenant-Governor, Secrelai y of State, Comptroller, Trea.-urer ndt Attorney-Gein-ral shall be Ihe Comimissioners of the Crn I Fit d 'I he (Canal Hord sli Ill consist of I he Commissioners of the Canal Fund, the State Enginter and surveyor and the Canal Coimmission i-s 0 No law shall he passed creatine or enntin, inl any office, foi the inspe, tion of any art icle of mereCh:tid ze, pro,'iice or manut-facittre (exce t -ialt m.rntltaN uit(d within this stale) att all exis Iug l:awv anitf.irizigi~, r I rov.:ding fir si-'h inspection, and tl;e offices creitedl thereby, are hereby abrogated. This was but a report in part for it was pos. ill sible other offices might be created by the Convention on whicht the committee might be callel upon to repor t. Hte explaiied further that the report now made. was n:)t one in all its details, on which the committee were unanimous; but the cotnmittee had agreed that the report should be male. each member of it reserving to himself the rihrit to offer suzh amendments as he pleasel when the report should be considered in committee of the whole. It was not l:is intention at this time to give a statement of the reasons why some of the proposed chanres were recommend. e.l in the organization of the departments of state; for lie should have an opportunity to do so when the Convention should go into committee of the whole upon it Mr. TALL MADGE remarked that the gentlemnan from Otsego had informed them that the relort was not the unanimous report of the committee, b t did not say it was in all its parts, the report of a majority; lie desired the gentleman to explain how that was. Mr. CHATFIELD had only to say to his venerable friend from Dutchess that he should hardly venture to make a report from a committee unless lie had the authority of the committee for making it This report the committee had directed to be made, members of it, however, reserving to themselves the right to express their views upon its details in committee of the whole. IJe now moved that the report be referred to the committee of the whole and printed, which was ag'ecd to-the number to be printed being fixed at 500, on the motion of Mr. RICHMOND. THk PARDONING POWER. Mr. RHOADES said lie held in his hand a resolution which contained matter in reference to which the committee had in part reported; yet there were matters contained in the resolution in relation to the powers and duties of a class of officers on which the committee had not reported, and tlieref re he would send up his resolution, striking out so much as had been anticipated by the action of the committee. The Secretary read the resolution, as follows: lResolved, That it be referred to the sixth standing comilitt e.o inquire into the expediency ol amen ing tl)e cons ituion s, as to provide for the election or appoil nimelt ofta board of officers, to be denominated the Commiissioners of -State Prisons, whose p wers and diti. s shall be to prescribe the mode of liscipline an( general governmern of the State Prisons, and who,with the Governor of the state, shall. constitute the sole power to grant pardons to such offenders as shall be sentenced to the itate Prisons. Mr. NICHOLAS said it appeared to him that the latter part of the resolution more properly belonged to the committee on the duties of the governor: the first part had been reported upon. He would however, ask the gentleman to allow the resolution to be referred to the commi tee of the whole having in charge the report made this morning. Mr. RHOADES preferred to lay it on the table until he had had time to read the report made this morning. It was laid on the table accordingly. BOARDS OF SUPERVISORS. Mr.WHITE offered the following, which was adopted: Resolved, That the committee on the powers o. collities, towns alnd othrr municip:al corpor: tiols, entIliire intlo the expediincy of pirovdtiig in the t'ol-oil lltion for the enacdCinetit of such general lawvs:s Ilt y te deemed necessary for the g vernmuent oi s id ctliities, toin-S, &c; aidtl also that thtl boar(s 4i' sllpelvi-ors ill the severa counties ill tie satte b- restrictud to the exercise of such powers as are admniiiisr.itive and not legislative. 'JUSTICE,', CCUtTS. Mr. WATERBURY offered the following. which was agreed to:Rtesolved, That ihe committee on the judiciary be instructed to iniquire into the expediency (of mierea-ilng the amount of judtlglents reldereld by jiustices orf tI peace-bhat a (olurt of'appe il maiy he formed t, settll;tleals from justices courts, ill such ii;nlle, tliat the ends or justice may he leached, costs saved) and difficuilies srtiled wilh mire dispatch. Mr. TAGGART presented a plan of a judiciary system which was referred to the committee on the judiciary. C MPE\SATION OF CIVIL OFFICERS. Mr. PERKINS submitted the following resolution:Resolved, That all civil officers chosen or arpo'nted for a tcrio l of three years, or less, ouight to receive' a compensation which shall,either be increased n,i diminis ed during the term for which they s;all have beet elected; so th-it all laws passed after tht cotnsistution shall take eflect, relatirin to the compeirsation ol siich officers, slhall relate only to the then ftlture incumnbeits of such offices. Mr. P. said in sut hmitting this resolution to the consideration of tle Convention lie did not propose to refer it to any committee. There was no committee that could pr~,perly have it especially in charge, for the subject matter (o' the resolution was diffused in its operation through a great variety of committees. He had suppoedl until he came here, that the business of' a constitutional Convention was to define an:] lay down propositions of government, principles e-f legislation, the powers of the executive an- judicial departments, and perthaps to limit and define the powers and the reserved riglts and privileges o' citizens. These he had supposed to be the principal objecte to be attainel by a fundamental law. But a great variety of resolutions had been offered, and a great variety of matter thrown before them. which seemed to him to be proper subjects for legislation, not for constitutional enactment. The committee to which he had the honor to belong had proposed to fix the salaries, or compensation to be paid to certain officers, as well as their duties and mode of appointment. Another committee previously reported a proposition to fix the compensation to be paid to the governor and to his secretary, together with his house-rent and various other matters, which would appear to be rather subjects for legislative detail, than constitutional provision. Considerable feeling had been excited in the community on account of what had been supposed by some to be legislation prompted by party motives, local hatred, and private passions; and in some quarters also, it had been imputed that attempts had been made to alter the compensation of officers and to lower them for the purposes of local popularity. He apprehended the proposition he had now offered would avoid such imputations on legislation; for if the legislature could not act on existing incumbents, there would be no motive but to 112 legislate on true principles, as it would not be printed of the reports of committees hereafter known what party mightsucceed them. He had to be made. ubjeti:onts to defining the salaries of officers in THE FOURTH OF JULY. the constitution. He presumed the Convention The PESIDENT laid before the Convento hoped to form a constitution which woulld f brCon to some time render unnecessary another Conven- an invitatin o cot lmittee appointed by a e er a tution m eeting of' civic officers, benevoient societies, lion; but if we were to form a consti and militay an other companies, to the Cunwhich woul.l b p o te acceptable to te people n ention to particiate in the celebration of the endure for many years, hlie thought we shoul 4th of July i this city tot go into detils as to compensation.t - After some conversation as to the proper disThe fvalue of money, as compared withe roducts position to be made of the invitation, whether it and merchandize, might change; the expenses of ben o ige B t an w sho atem w oshould be referred to a committee for considers. subsistence might vary, and thus what would tion, or be acted upon at once by the Convenbe a proper salary at one time, would not be tion, the latter couse was adopted, and e intion, the latter course was adopted, and twle in. at another. This woul.l be more especially the vitation was accepted. case in respect to local officers; and he feared that by the adoption of such a system we wo'l TH; GOVERNOr AND LIEUT. GOVERNOR. bring before the people such a mass of detail as On motion of Mr. MORRIS, the Convention would rather set the people to examining them, went into committee of the whole, Mr. CIAT. than those fundamental principles which it was FIELD in tie chair, on the Article to the conmore peculiarly the province of the Convention stitution heretofore reported by him [and pub. to lay down. He, however, thought there could lished at length] in relation to the pow-ers. dube no fear of improper legislation on such mat- ties, &c. o' the Governor and Lieut. Governor. ters, if they could not act on the existing incum. The CHAIR directed the Article to he read bents of office. But if we should attempt to through, and it was partly read-when fix what should be a reasonable salary for every Mr. MORRIS suggested that the reading be officer 3), 40, or 50 years to come. when the pop- dispensed with, as it had been printed and laid ulation of the state may have doubled, when on the tables-and was unnecessary. their duties in many respects had become more The reading being dipenseld wlti, Mr. MORonerous, when the price of products and neces. RIS availed himself of the occasion to state the saries of life had augmented, and the value of reasons that had induced the committee to rl port labor hal greatly changedl, it seemed to him we the article-aying that suggestions had been should place ourselves in difficulties which would thrown out from lime to time, in relation to it, involve the necessity of another Convention. To that seemed to call for it. Tile committee had avoid such a result, he had submitted this reso- embodied in the article all the provisions ofl the lutioni, to be disposedof asthe Convention might constitution which properly came within it, in. think proper. cluding those that they did not propose to alter, Mr. CH D regred tt hs in order that members might have the whole be. rot. shAoldbefoe the mttee ofn fore them, and be better able to judge of the from St. Lawrence should have attempted to an. propriety of the amendments suggested. They ticipate thle consideration of' the report which he he pe se ts e eto had also inserted provisions touching the corthad had the honor to make this morning by a pensatioa of the Eective not entiey coi. pensatioa ot the Executive-not entirely fromi proposition in the shape of a resolution. The ie of te r on t ecase priniole in towas in his Mran any views of their own, but because they were nvolve it h u ent speciallychargedwith tire nalter ofcompensation iniportant feature in the changes to be made i and were bound to consider and notice it in their the administrative offices of the state. It had.Mr. M. ran over several sections ofthe sgesen fully discossereport. Mr. M. ran over severa l sections ofa the been fully discussed in the committee, and een f di d te e article, correcting, by consent some verbal and though the committee was not entirely unani- cricl i raies that t t, mous, they had agreed that certain proposition and 3rd sections were copies of the preset on shoulan 3rd be reported to the Convention, reserving tion aso, i the aidition C stitution I the 4th section also, w ith th e addition to themselves the right to express their own of existiomg t rovisions of law in regar to comt views in committee of the whole; but a discus- pensation. The 5th section was foried oflle sion in anticipation of the debate on the report, old consuttution, the statute and some dew oath before it had been printed and examined, could ter. To this he proposed to add a clause which lead to no result. He did not now design to en. was in the present cnstitutiona wdice l tle comh ter into any discussion, but when the whole sub- ttee left out, fom a ear that hey might rc. should be before the committee of the mittee left out, from a fear that they might tremich on the duties of the legislative committee But whole, he would adduce reasons for the conclu upon refletion it seemed so intimately connect. sions to which the committee had come. ed with the subject as to require its retention. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to lay the reso. It was a clause to the effect that in case of a lution on the table, which was carried; also a suspension of a sentence for treason until tile motion to print, by Mr. LOOMIS. next meeting of the legislature, the legislature Mr. PATTERSON moved the printing of an should either pardon, direct the execution of tl.e additional number of the diagrams of the house, sentence, or grant a further reprieve. The 6th which hlad just been laid on the tables. He section was copied from the old constitution, suegested 5 additional copies for each member, with the addition of another cause of' disability. officer, and reporter. The 7th was also old, except with the like adlSeveral gentlemen desired 6 and others 10.- dition. The 8th was new, taken froum the statThe latter number was agreed tc. ute, fixing the compensation of the Lieut. Gov. On the motion of Mr. E. HUNTINGTON, ernor. The 9th was new-the 10th was taken ordered that 800 be the number of copies to be from the statute, and involved a serious question 113 perhars-whether the matter of delivering up sented to, as modifications of the original arti. critninals to foreign governments did not belong cle. entirely to the United States government. Mr. MORRIS then moved that the committee Mr. JONES enquired why the committtee had take up the first section of the arlicle. omitted a provision for delivering up fugitives Mr. SHEPARD enquired of the chairman of on the req uisition of the executives of co-states? the legislative committee, whether they intendel Mr. MORRIS replied that that was provided to consider the veto power? for in the constitution of the United States, in Mr. STETSON did not know that he could so many words. It made it the duty of state answer with precision. The committee of executives to deliver up such fugitives. which he was one had had some of these mat. Mr. JONES asked the gentleman to point to ters partially under consideration; but as to, he the section of the United States constitution that veto power, itwas viewed as connected with the required this of state executives. powers and duties of the Governor. To a cerlMr. MORRIS said lie would refer the gentle. tain extent it was. In the existing constitution man to it by and by. it was placel under the legislative del)art. Mr. JONE 1S was under the impression that it menlt. They ran into each othe:, to some ex. was made the duty of states to do it, but by tent, evidently. From the shape now given to whom was not specified. this article, it regulated nearly all letislative Mr. WARD read from the constitution of the power at the close of the session. There were Unitel St-ttes, the section in question (article 4) many considerations of importance connecied as lollows: with legislation at the close of a session, Imost ' 2. a person charge l in any state with treason, of which had received consideration at the hands felon, (or otht r crime, who shall flee from justice,;n(l of the committee on the legislative department. h, f'id in another state, shall, on dem:iuld of he ex Mr. MORRIS remarked that when we came;.elimvercd 'lliy of the r state arom having juhe ed down to the last section, it would be lor the con. diti(i,i oul the (ritne.h vention to determine to which department the Mr. JONES replied., that it would be seen that subject belonged. While up, he would state, there was no obligation imnposed there upon any that the comiittee unanimously agreed that this slate offic.r to deliver up futgitives, article should be reported to the Convention; but Mr. MORRIS replied that the law of congress that no one of the committee was to be under. imposed that duty on the executive-and went stood as being wedded to any suggestion in it. Oii to say that the 11th section was taken from They came in with it, as entirely ojpen to con. the statute; the 12th also, with a little alteration. viction as any member of the body, aud free to The 13th was also taken from the constitution, adopt any suggestion that might strike any of altt r.ed by striking out clerks and registers, leav. them as an improvement. le hoped, therefore, ing sheriffs only removable by the executive.- gentlemen would eel at perfect lberty to make The 14th was new in part, and for that he de. any sugestions t iat ni occur to tiem sired to offer a new section, being the original The CHAIR stated the question to be on ta. re-modelled, and with additions requiring the the first section. ayes an.] noes on every bill, and giving the gov.. PATTTERSON hoped that in taking up nor ten days after each session to approve of the article by sections, the usual course would bills, as follows ' be adopted-that is, if no amendment was propo). 14. Every bill which shall have passed the senate sed, to pass on to the next, an so on, until the:,d a-seinhly shall, before it becomes a law, be pre. whole had been gone through with anJ perlect. sented to the governor If he ap, rove he shall sign it; ed-taking no final question on any section. bi)t it noit, he shall retfirn it with his objections to that The CHAIR understood that to be parliamen. houis ~ in which it shall have orig n't- d; who shall n- tary law ler the objections at large on their Journal and pro. celd 0o reconXider it. It, after such eiconsid ration, Mr. KIRKLAND had doubts whether time two thirds of the members present shill agree to pass would be usefully employed in taking up this the b ll, it shall tie sent, together witi the objections, article by sections. He believed the Conven. to the oltler house, by which i shall likewise te reco tion should reject the entire article. low that; i i b otml tion should reject the entire article. How that sidered; an' if ali'troved by two-thirds of the membi rs present it sna 1 become a law. If not approved by two. question could be discussed by taking up the thirds of the members present, ad if, at the newx ensu. first section he did not know. But he believed itg se.ston of thie legislature, the same bill shall be that overpowering reasons could be presented;igaii paoted by thie vote of the majority of all the me 7bers ellec eYdt i each branch of he legislature, why this article should be rejected as a whole such hi I shill become a latw notwithstanding the oh. -in other words, why the article of the exist. jectiMis o(I the governor And uplon the final passage ing constitution on the same subject was fully of every bill ihe votes of both houses shall be deter. sufficient for all purposes mined by ye is atd nays, and the names of the mem The CrHAIR stated that nfter the article bers voliig for and against the bill shill be entered..n The CHAIR stated that after the artice the jourtal of eath house respectively. If any bill should have been perfected by sections, it would shall nut be retti ned by thle governor withn ten days then be under consideration as a whole, and ev. ( undays excepted) after it shall h.ive been presi-sted ery part of it would be open for discussion. to h i he same shi11 e a law, inii like mainer as it Mr. KIRKLAND went on to say tliatie reI e had sign d it, unless the legislattiu e shall by iheir Mr. KIRKLAND went on to say thaihe readjoiirument prevent its leturn; in which ca-e it shall garded the act under wvhich we had assembled, ant be a law, unlte-s the governor shall approve the as a special power of attorney-as the chart on samFe within ten irys alter the adjo rnrment The which our course was marked out. He did not oniissim, otf the govern r in such ca..e to approve; f a bit. within te llars alter the ajotirnment, shall ht;ve regard it as any part of our duty under that act, the same effect as'if such bill had been returned to the to propose to the people, for approval or rejec. legislature with his objections. Lion, parts of the old constitution which we This, and the several other alteraqions (chief did not propose to amend Yet here were ly verbal) suggested by Mr. MoRtIS, were as. three or four sections of the existing constitutiou 8? 114 embodied in this nrtile, without the alteration ol'a letter. W\ithout intenlding the slightest disresptCt to any member of the committee that reporte t it, he must say that he thought it a waste if time t1 go through it, and discuss the propriety of,' ubitlitllig to the people for approval or rejectuln, sections coplied word for word fiom tihe plresent constitution. Nor would it be within tie line of our duty, which was specifically to p:opose amendments to that instrument. He trilute, therefore, belore the committee took up tlis article section by section, that members ilight ie allowed to express tleir views on the other queStion-whether the article should not be rcjt cte.l i: tloo. If not out of order, he would no\, prueceed to state his views on that subject. 'IThe( CHAIR stated that it would not now be in order but that after the article had been gone through with, section by section, and the qucstion camle up on reporting it to the house, tIien the remarks of the gentleman would be in orler. Mr. KIRKLAND replied that tlme might be saved, if the committee should first dispose of the question he wished to raise-though the same result might be attained in the mode suggested by tie Chair. Mr. RUSSE'LL suggested that, as the committee would probably soon rise, the gentleman could then attain his object by moving to recomlmit the article with instructions. The article ought to be printed, as now amended, and the new plarts distinguished fiom the old, by italics. Mr. KIRKLAND thought it would be incurring a useless expense to print. Mr. SWACKHAMER called the gentleman firom Oneida to order-and There was a great deal of desultory conversation on the point of order-whether under a motion to take up the first section, debate was admissible on the propriety of rejecting the enlire report. In the course of this conversation, I lMr. SWACKHIAMER waived hi, call to order -annl finally. on motion of Mr. WORDEN, and by consent, it was ordered that the article be takeni up section by section for consideration and amendmilent. The first section having been taken up, Mr. KIRKLAND desired to say a few words on the point to which lie had before adverted. 'lThe parts of the present constitution which wc:e to be altered, were those which they should submit to the people for approval or rejection-not provisions with which they found 1to Ihult, but with which all were satisfied; and he objected to this mode of proceeding. In his judglment it would lead to a useless expenditure of time, and involve them in difficulties from whh ici they would find it almost impossible to extricate themselves. In his judgment, no report should conie from committees to the Convention, other than amendments to articles of the existing constitution, which committees might specifically submit. They had a very good and salutary example in the mode of proceeding by which the constitution had been heretofore a. mended. The CHAIR inquired if the rentleman from Oneida proposed to debate the first section? Mr. KIRKLAND said he did not. The CHAIR remarked that debate was not in order unless le moved to amend the section. Mr. KIRKLAND proposed to strike it out. The CHAIR replie.l tihat at t was not in order. Mr. KIRKLAND ther plroposed to show that the section ought not to be adoptel. The CHAIR reminded the gentleman that the question was not on its adoption. The hirht section was open for amendment; anl if tm.ne were proposel, it would be passed over, and tie next taken tip. Mr. KIRKLAND enquired if the merits of the first section were not debatea ble? The CHAIR explained that they wern not at this stage of the business, unless an amenidment were olfered. Mr. KIRKLAND enquired if no vote was to be taken on the section. The CHAIR replied, that there was not. but votes might be taken on any amendments that might be offered. Mr. STETSON explained, for the informa. tion of the gentleman Irom Oneida, and to help him out of his dilemma, that one Iact had bt:el lost sight of, which would explain the whole matter. It was this: that the Con\enltion had accepted the report of the commi'ttee, and now it was their act. The CHAIRMAN also explained, that the gentleman from Oneida would have opportunities hereafter to accomplish his purpose, which he specifieil. Mr. KIRKLAND moved that the committee rise and report progress, which was carried by a vote of 49 to 36. The PRESIDENT having resumed the chair, stated the question to be on granting leave to sit again. Mr. TILDEN suggested that as the conmmittee from whom the article had becn reported had madle pretty numerous amendments to it, it might be convenient to have the repor t, in its amended folrm, printed under their dir:ction; and it would also ie desirable that the a. mendments s ould be distinguished lromn the parts of the old constitution by a different t vle. He moved the printing as he had indicated Mr. MANN th;uliht the question should be first taken on granting leave to sit again. Mr TILDEN thought his motion involved that. Mr. RICHMOND desired to know what necessity existed for this additional prinlin.. -Was it because the committee had corrected solme clerical errors? Tle PRESIDENT remarked that the question was on granting leave to sit again. Mr. RICHMOND said lie w as in favor ot granting the committee leave to sit again, and on this report as it is, for lie liked the shape in which it had been presented. It was in a sin ape to suit every common sense man, and with which they could see what they were about, Mr. NICHOLAS said the object of the gentleman Irom New-York (Mr. TILDEN) could te attained and yet the committee have leave to sit again. He admitted the manner in which tle report was printed was defective; a great embarrassment was thereby occasioned; for!here were twelve or thirteen sections, with nothing to distinguish between the amendments madf 115 an-1 the provisions of the old constitution. He Mr. TOWNSEND moved an adjournment, hoped that leave would be granted to sit again Mr. KIRKLAND having yielded the floor for that an i that the report would be printed,distinguish- purpose; but it was negatived 54 to 2.. ilg the amendments by printing them in italics. Mr. KIRKLAND resumed in reierence to the M1. WARD desired to make one sutgestion. | act which called the Convention together, anl Very lew amendmnents had been made by the the duties which were devolved upon them by comiiittee and they were merely ve bal. — that act. He found that the 6tn section precr.l After the report hal passed through the bed their duties to be to take into consiieratlicn coiriiittee of the whole, when the amendments the constitution of this state, and to make such Jiha been made which other gentlemen might alterations therein as the rights of the people desire to olfer, would be the prcper time to or- demanded, and as they might deeii proper.(dcr ti e printig. It;, however, they were to act Now he apprehended that in the perlormuance of' on the suggestion of the gentleman who had that duty they were not called upon to relort prece;led htin, this report would now be printed firom committees the articles in the pre-ent conat some cost, and it would have to be printed stitution, but they were called upon to make agadinr when the individual amendments of gen- such amendments lherein as the rights of the tiemen should have been made. There was no people demanled. He found no fault with the sort of necessity for it now, and he hoped there committee from whom this report catue, lor would be no further desultory conversation in they had been on an untried path, and were t;ic relation to it, but that they would grant first to report without having any instrlctills leave to sit again, and to-morrow go lrom the Convention as to the mode they slould into committee again. Gentlemen had adopt; but if this mode of reporting werte to be amendlments, some to make the election of Go- adopted, it would be necessary that every other vernor annual, others to strike out the age pre. committee should report to tlle Convention ariiscitbed, an] there were others of a different de- cles and sections of the present constitution, aril sci iption, an hle trusted they would all be per- even those in which no amenIr ents whatever mlited to exercise their rights, by attempts to were to be made. By an analysis which Le naJd malie the article perfect. made of the report of the cormmittee, lie found After a lew words from Messrs. TILDEN, that there were seven sections of article three WATERBURY, TAYLOR and DANA, of the existing constitution reported, most of Mr. TO\VWNEND suggested to Mr. KIRK. them subsiantially unaltered. There sas one LAND, that the remarks he desired to submit, section of artic'e first, and also one seeciun of m ght now be in order. article four, reported in the same manner. Now lM. KIRKLAND said he had been so much it seemed to him this would lead to great conl'u. trouble I with points of order, that he scarcely sion, and would give to the c,;mmittees and to dared to venture on another attempt to give his the Convention unnecessary labor without Leviews on tie subject of'the merits of this report; ing productive of any important benefit. lie but it' lie were in order he would say a few thought the proper cour-e was that pursuel words. As he understood the duty of this Con- by the last Convention which he again desvention it was to anmend the existing constitution cribed, and then they would have ttle ameniof the State of New York; and if they confine I ments in a proper shape to submit to the people. themselves to amendments of that instrument It was desirable that this matter should Le setvwhich were demanded by the people, and by the tied now, because this was the fir-t report fro; interests of' the people, without going beyond a committee, and whalever was now approved their duty or over ground with which they would prescribe the course for all the re-t. It had no manner of' concern, he thought they had been found in all the states of this Union, should find themselves well occupied for two and perhaps in other countries, that excessive montihs to come. Scme gentlemen might differ legislation was the bane of' the land, anl the froom him, but he was of opinion that they were people had sent them here to guard against it, asserribled on that floor by virtue of the act and he hoped they would not give a worse excalling a Convention, and they should follow ample, that of excessive constitution makiing. tihe course which that act prescribed This was On the motion of Mr. BASCOM the con. en a very important matter, as the Convention tion would find before they got through their delibe.- Adjourned to to-morrow morning at 11 o'clock, rations. THURSDAY, JUNE 25. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. FISHER. the exi'ting constitution are embraced, that such parts The PRESIDENT presented to the Conven- be primed in italics. tion returns in answer to interrogatories, from THE CANAI,, PUBIJBC PROPERTV, &c. the assistant register in Chancery at New York, Mr. F. F. BACKUS called for tle considerasettiin forth the number of causes on the calen. tion f his resolutions offered a few days since, dar, &c. Reerrecl t tohe committee on the ju- requesting the Comptroller to furnish certain diciary. statenents and estimates in relation to canals, Mr. RIOADES offered tle following which the public property, &c., [heretobore published was agreedi to:- at length,] and they were agreed to. Resolveel, VI hen reports of committees hereafter pre. ' OHrS (F MA tfll) OMEN. selred which enbr;ce proposition- to amend the con. Mr. WOOD submitted the following, which st.t;^toi uu d iu wvli;h sectiMus ur parts uf sectioas of was adopted: 116 Resolved, That the Committee on the rights and privileges of citizenls of this state enquire iul,, tbe propriety and expedetncy ot securing to married wimeu by co stitutiou;al plrovision, the right and power to control and mn;ange their iea; and personal c.tate or property they may litve at the time of their marriage, or wintch they nmay alterwards be ettitled to by descent, devise, becquest, cotl ract, gilt, or any other proceeding whi h nmay entitle Iht m to the right of property, to empower theln to matke bargains atid contracts for hle saine, to bind tlhemi b such contract. or agreenlme s, relating t'eret,, and th-it tile said prolerty be liable for the debts individually cont acted by thbi,, and also for thter slupport and the stuipi, t and Inaintenance of heir chiltren, atndl Ihat they i.ily by last will and te-tament d vice ald bequeath the -tame, and that laws may be p'lssed lay tte legislature for t e deseent ol ftich estate or tlle distributlont ' stlcl property in cases ol intest;tcv, ant also to secure to the hulsband tlie same iterest in his xtife's estates and property, that his wife would by law be entitltd to in his tunder similar cireumstal: c s, and that a married woman a ay before or after the deatlh tf her husband, enfo ce any c ntraict or agr eriietl madte with her during marriage, for her support and maintenance. REMOVAL OF OFFICERS. Mr. PERKINS offered the following resolution:Resolved, That a select committee of seven be appointed by the Chair, to consider and report appr priate am;deamaents and provisions for the suspension of officers suspected to be guil'ty of malversation, from otfice, and for their removal on proper prool; and for supplying vacancies ad interim. Mr. PERKINS said it seemed probable that the deliberations of this body would result in the election by the people of a large number of oificers that now renewed their appointment in other modes. There were some provisions in the present constitution for the removal of officers elected by the people; but for the most part, officers elected by the people, could only be renioved by imnpeachment-a majority of all the members electel to the Assembly being necessary to initiatory proceedings. and two-thirds of the Senate to convict. Members of the two houses might be expelled by those bodies. Yet it was probable, that officers elected by the peopte, with a terin of office prescribed by the constilutitn, would not be removable until the expiration of such term by force of legislative enactment; and hence it might be necessary to make provision in the constitution, for the re. moval of officers unde, such circumstances, and to suplply vacancies ad interim. It had been proposed here to elect officers of the gov'ernment, very extensively. How far that would be carried into effect we could not yet determine. We had received one report making all state officers, canal commissioners, and inspectors of state prisons, elective by the people. It met with approval, in many quarters, and it might be that surrogates and district attorneys, and perliaps other officers, would be made elective. A large portion of these officers were the receivers and disbursers of public moneys. Under the constitution of the U. S., all receivers and disbursers ol the public moneys were appointed and removed through the instrumental. ity of the President of the U. S., by himself or subordinate officers. There was a similar provision in the old constitution of 77. Under that of '21, there was not a very large number of officers made elective, and their tenure of office prescribel. Sheriffs were the principal officers. They were receiving and disbursing agents and officers elective by the people, and there was provision made for their removal, and various instances of the exercise of that power had occurred. The removal and suspension of officers under the present constitution had been general. ly regulated by lIw, and not by constitution, and it' it could be so regulated, it was perhaps better to leave it there. He entertained s rong doubts, if the constitution should prescribe ata election by the people, and the tenure of office should be one, two, three, or five years, whetler any such officer could be removed or suspendel, without constitutional provision-prescribing the mode in which it should be done. Under the system we were about:o introduce, it would be fotlnd necessary to provide that rectiving and disbursing officers, when found guilty of. tnalversation, should be speedily suspended fromn office; otherwise they would be unable to arrest the ebuses of defaulters, except to use a common expression, by shutting the door alter the horse was stolen. These,views sincerely enter. tained, had induced him to submit this resolution. It would be perceived by turning to the Revised Statutes, that the Governor had power to remove officers appointed by him, and to supply vacancies thus created; but if he was correct in the views he had now taken, it would be necessary to make constitutional provision for the removal of officers elected by the people.He had submitted his resolution, because undet parliamentary rules, he could not place his views on record in any other way. It, however, the Convention should send his resolution to the ju diciary committee, he should interpose no objec tions. Mr. STRONG thought the gentleman from St. Lawrence had had ample opportunity to express these views in the committee of which he was a member; where the question involved had been debated from day to day; and with that the gentleman should have been content. Now, however, the gentleman asked for a special commit. tee; but why, Mr. S. was at a loss to determine, inasmuch as the gentleman, if dissatisfied with the conclusions of his own committee, could of. fer an amendment carrying out'his views, when the Convention should go into committee of the whole on the report. Then also he miight be heard in explanation of his views, and the Convention could act accordingly, Mr. PERKINS said it was true he had heretofore made some of the suggestions which he now made, in the committee of which lie and the gentleman from Monroe were members; but he had not then understood, nor did lie now understand that that committee was chargedl with the duty of introducing constitutional provisions to meet cases such as these. He apprehlended the duty rather belonged to the committee on the executive department. Mr. CHATFIELD said the committee of which he and the gentleman from St. Lawrence were members, had considered this subject, and he hoped that gentleman, in the movements lie had made in reference to the action of their committee, did not intend to cast any reflection ei. ther on its ability or its willingness to discharge its duty. The resolutions, however, which the gentleman had offered yesterday and to-day would seem to have that aspect. This whole 117 subject was brought to the attention of the comrittee by another member, almost in the precise wor is which the gentleman from St. Lawrence had adopted; and alter much discussion, findinit tiat there was not a unanimity of opinion upon it, it was thought better to defer its fur. t er consideration until the Convention should be in committee of the whole on the report of the gentleman from NewYork (Mr. MoRRIS),as this was deemel to be a part of Executive duty, an I that provis on should be made for it by an amendment to that report. He (Mr. C.) was satisficd that that was the proper view to take of' tie question, and lie had therefore pre. pare.l an amendment which he entrusted to a colleague (being himself the chairman of the committee of the whole on the report referred to); and he was somewhat surprised to find that they were now anticipated by a resolution to refer to a select committee. Mr. C was opposed to such a reference, for it would appear to imply that the committee ot'which he was chair. man was incompetent to consider it. If it were to be sent to a commlittee at all, he claimed, as a matter of parliamentary courtesy, that it should be sent to his committee Mr. S'.ACKHAMEIR made that motion, so as to refer to committee number six. Mr. PERKINS perceived that the chairman (Mr. CHATFIELD) of the committee to which he belonged, seemed to suppose that anymovenient made by h;m in relation to any matter here, was in derogation of the powers conferred on Mr. C. as chairman, and an imputation on the committee itself. Mr. P. confessed to some surprise and astonishment at the view the gen. tleman took of his movement to-day and yestPrlay. The Convention had determined that they vould receive no reports or expositions from these committees. Now, the report made yesterday fiom the committee of which lhe was a member, in mnany of its provisions had his cordial approbation-whilst some of its details did not meet his assent. And yet the gentleman from Otseiro seemed to regrard it as a personal indignity to him, that lie (Mr. P.) should make any movement here implying that he did not assent to every item and article of that report. Now, in the ordinary course of parliamentary proceedings, it would have been his right, and not discourteous in him, to have expressed in writing the views he ha I indlicate.-thlat expression would have come efore the Convention with the report, and the implication would not have arisen, as now, that hle assented to the entire article. Again, in of fering his resolution yesterday, he desired in that way to indicate his views in relation to the matter of fixing the corpensation of officersanticipating that the article reported by thecommittee on the Executive depaitment (Mr MOR. RIS'S) would come up, and that stanJing on record in favor of' that proposition, by the report made by his committee, he should be placed in a fltse attitude, if he.hould, as lie intended, take ground against that provision. He did not desire to be placed in that position; and had the ordinary course been pursued here, he should not have been compelled to stand in that attitude. Mr. P. did not know what was intended. The gentleman from Otsego, (Mr. CHAT. FIELD,) his associate on the committee, had made a speech against written reports; and it a minority wished to place themselves on record, they must at least write something-perhaps in the form in which he hal chosen to do it here. But as it was-between the action of' the Convention on one side, anil what was deemed courtesy en the other, the mouths of a minority of a committee wexe closed. They could not bring their views before the Convention, except when a report came up in commniittee of the whole. Was a course of that kinl to be put down the throats of the Convention. nn.l of such minorit es? If country required it, he would submit: for he designed no disrespect to anybody, nor did he think he ilad been guilty,of any. Minorities of committees; when a rtport was made, should be allowed to stand on record, as early as the residue of the commlittee, that the views of both sides might be belbe the body. He did not unldrstand until now, that this matter appropriately belonged to committee number six. If the gentleman from Otsego wanted to have charie of it, Mr. P., had ino objection. The gentleman claimed1 it, and Mr. P.. was willing he should have it-or any other committee. But he did not reaard it as within the range of t'ie powers delegated to that coinmittee. It reached beyond-to other ofiicersto the Executive-to all local officers-perhaps to the judiciary committee. He did not know that the gentleman from Otsego hafd exc'usive jurisdiction over this subject. But Mr. P. lind no obj ction to his having it; Mr. P. did not desire to have it himself; for lie apprehended, it was not a matter so easily dispise.l of'. He confessed he did not unlerstand this matter as some of the committee did-though he presumed they were right about it The subject was introduced before the committee, by whom he would not pretend to remember-and he was certain that it was nooted anl talked about.and that the declaration was made and assented to, that some stringest provisions would be necessary. And then the matter dropped-nothing being said as to who was expected to perform that duty. Had lie supposed that it belnged to the committee of which lie was one. he should have proposed that provisions be drawn up in detail for consideration. He did not happen to hear the suggestion of a mode of effecting the removal of these officers, if it was claimed that they were made as a step towards the committee's framinu such provisions. And lie was at a loss to understand when, and from what source, and on what ground these imputations were attempted to be cast on himr of disrespect towards the chairman ot the commniltte to which he belonged. Mr. P. disclaimed any intention to forestall the committee. He repeated lie had no desire to be on the se'ect conmmittee. It' the gentleman from Otsego desired to have the fram. ing of such provisions as he had i;ndicated. lie hoped the Convention would gratify him. Mr. CHATFIELD did not mean to say that the gentleman intentionally cast any imputation on him, or on the committee. But he did say what he repeated now, and what must strike the common sense of every man here,' that the course lpusuel by that gentleman could not be regarded in any other light than as an imputa. tion on theactioa of that committee. Hle had 118 never yet known, in his parliamentary experi. idea on the part of the gentleman from St. Law ence, a select committee raised on a subject be. rence, that minorities on committees wice pr)e ljre referred, unless the previous comnmiltee re. cluded from making rlports. No douLt, thie gt-n. f;sed to act, or had acted in an improper man- tleman could have,resented a countler Jp'),lpolsi ner. What he complained of was, that a select tlon here, when Ihe report alluded to camie in coiiiiittee should be proposed to be charged And having inadvertently omitted to exercise with a duty which had been devolved on a stand. this right at the proper time, the gentleman ing committee. It that was not a reflection or ought perhaps to have it restored to hbm; so tlilu impultation on the committee, then he was una- before we went into comnniiltee onl the )prposib!e to see what was. Mr. C. did not arrogate tion uf the majority, we miglit have the counltcr to himself the right to discharge a duty which proposition before us in print. Techllically the properly be.onged to another committee-but the tenure of office, was not a matter relferied to c:aiJfication of subjects adopted by the Conven- committee number six, but looking at the spirit tion, gave to the committee of which he was of the classification adopted by the Conlvention, one, tlie charge of tlis subject most clearly.- it fell within the scope of' that committee-amnl Anl it would be their duty no doubt to provide flu one he should like to have the benefit ol the for the i.iode of appointment, &c. of other offi- views of the gintleman frorm bt. Lawrence on cers than those specified in the article reported this important subject, where hewas evidently yest-rdlay — ir it was probable that offices might at home. He need not enlarge on its importance. be created, by the action of other committees, The history of the country showedl tiat there nlot known nowto the constitution and laws; had always been a necessity for praying that and hence it was that the committee, reporting we mighlt not be led into temptation. Tee peoas they did in advance of all the other commit- ple were sometimes mistaken in individualstees but one, reported in part only, reserving the and it was highly proper that we should provide right of reporting further, should the action of some mode of reaching persons lor mal.cunuct. other commiittees make it necessary. But the As had been well suggested, the old-.flshiontel geitlelmau from ot. Lawrence had made his re- imode of impeachment had become so obsolete, solution a sort of peg to hang a speech on a- as to be ineffectual, even in terrorem. And, on gatnst the action of this body a few days since, the other.anl. it was an arbilrary and unsale inr relation to writ'en reports-and the matter of nioLe to allow the governor to remove, on me e conmlalint seemed to be that he had no means of suspicion. It was a subject \lich c(;i.git to be plic.ng himself on recoid on this subject. He consiJered-and J to nrable the gelltleman lrom would ask that gentleman if it was not in his St. Lawrence to present his views on the subpower, in committee of the whole, to make ject, Mr. S. ha;l drawn up a resolution, which iknown his views, and by way of amendment to he should offer, ifassented to by tlat gentleman, place himself on record? Was there any pro- and the chairman of committee number six. hibition-ay gag in force here? Was there Resolvet, 't the retort submitted y tommittee any necessity for a select committee to en- numbter six, he ~ecomnittn d t( aflford the mmnorily of able him to do that? Was there not another the comlmitee etn opportuii y to m;ik he tretur. inadmode also in which the gentleman could have vereuily omitted by the nii.urity..placed himself on record? Certainly there was Mr. CHATFIELD.-Strike out the last sen. nothing in the recent expression of this body, to tence. It was nol inadvertent, and would be prevent a minority on a committee from present- untrue. ing propositions counter to, or varying from the Mr. SIMMONS:-I mean inadvertently on proposition of a majority; both might be pre- the part oflhe minlority. sented at the same time, and both go on record Mr. CHATFIELD:-That is not true. together, and that would have been perfect'y Mr. PATTERSON suggested that as the com. parliamentary. It did seem to Mr. C. that mittee had only reported in part, the minority this resolution, or rather the speech accompa- could report hereafter. saying it, was not made in a very amiable Mr. SIMMONS waived his motion, spirit. Heniight have mistaken thegentleman's Mr. DANFORTH asked the gentleman from feelings; it would be uncharitable not to believe Otsego where minorities of commitlees received that the gentleman had no bad feeling or motive authority to bring in minority reports? about it. Be this as it might-there was a short Mr. CHATFIELD:-From parliamentary law and proper mode in which the gentleman could -as old and universal as parliamentary bodies attain everything he sought to effect by this re- themselves. solution-and that was whenwe came into com- Mr. DANFORTH:-But according to parlianittee on the article which was up yesterday, mentary law, committees bring in written reto move sections by way of amendment, provid- ports, and assign reasons. ing for the suspension of officers guilty of rnal- Mr. CHATFIELD:-True; but parliamenfeasance, by the executive, until they could be tary bodies may limit their action in that reimpeached by the legislature; and Mr. C. could spe, t, andl have done it. say that that was the view entertained by the Mr. DANFORTH was aware that that had committee of which he was chairman, of the been done here-and hence it was that the gtnproper mode of reaching this question. tleman from bt. Lawrence had felt constialied Mr. SIMMONS remarked that it was very to take the course lie had. He had the honor of evident we should not soon arrive at results which belonging to committee number six. lie did not the people of the state were anxiously looking assent to all the provisions of their report. for, il'every now and then personal feelings and Mr. CHATFIELD:-Did not the gentleman reflections were to be indulged in. All this dif: assent to the report beirg made? ficulty-had obviously growa out of a mistakea I Mr. DANFOITII did assent, because it waf 119 only a report in part. But now, if the commit. ject. True, so much of the resolution as relat. tee wished to present their views-how were ed to corporations was not technically referra. t'iey to do it, until a very late day? lie should ble there. But in reality, the subject intimately like to have the gentleman from Otsego inform concerned the rights and privileges of citizens. him. Now Mr. M. did not propose to Interfere with Mr. CHATFIELD had tried to inform the vested rights, as seemed to be supposel. This gentleman that when we came into committee resolution, in fact, contained a reservation in of the whole, any member could present his favor of veste.l rights. He did not wish to atpropositions and argue them. No difficalty tack vested rights. He did not want that qucsabout it-not a particle. tion inquired into here. But he did propose an Mr STOW stated his view to be that this examination into political power, as exercised malter of the removal ol'oficers, by implication, by corporations-which gentlemen seemed to though not in express terms, was given to corn- regard as in a measure sacred, and beyond our mittee number six, and there was no necessity examination. That he deniel. He held with for raising a select committee. a distinguished writer who Ilourished many Mr. KEMBLE, as a member of this commit- years ago, that the rights of man. were not the tee nnmber six, felt calle l on to say that the rights of one generation -that they could subject matter of this resolution was informally not be monopolized, but belonged to all.discussed in thatcominittee; but that there were I Powers which interfered with the political rights doubts expressed whether it did not properly be. of man, must fall before the spirit and genius of long to the committee on the powers and duties our government. They couli not be vestel. of the executi e. The committee, therefore, in The gentleman had also fallen into a f rther erview of the fact that the subject might come ror in supposing that there was any thing pecu. before them, under the report of other commit. liarly strong in a royal grant. 'lhe people of tees, concludeJ to postpone the subject 'or fu. this state succeeded to all the rights and prerog. ture consideiation, and to report in part, as the atives of royalty before the Revolution. What. committee had done-reserving this subject.- ever the kins ot Great Britain might have done, Un Icr these circumstances he moved to lay the they could now do, and what they could not do, resolution on the tab'e. The motion prevailed. the king could not lo. He desired to strike l ot ROYAL G' ANT; of the constitution clautses which he deeimel Mr. MURPHY called up his resolution, re- mischievous. We found men in high places, we ferrinz to the committee on the rights and privi. founJ members here-we obund legislative bodleges of ciliztns, the expediency of' striking out ies, putting constructions on the constitution otf the constitution certain clauses in relation to which had been repudiated by our own courts, Royal Gratts [as heretofore published.J and by very eminent men. These clauses had llr. SHEPAtiD hadi no objection to an appro. led to monstrous errors-not only in case of the priate reference, but he thought that direction city of Albany, to which he allu.,ed the other had not been given to it. The clauses referred day, t.ut in the legislature. He had a case to,related, the one to grants of land, the other to now in his niind which occurred in 1830-when charters of incorporation. He sugeested that it was sought to divide a town in Sullolk county, the subject of grants to individuals belonied to where his venerable friend on his left, (Mr. lhe committee designated, but not the other. — LUNTINGTON) resided. A remonstrance was Perhlaps there was no appropriate committee presented, setting up this same question ofl oyal lor the other branch of the enquiry, unless it grant It was a royally chartered town. The was the 14th, on the powers and organization legislature gravely relerred it to the then At. of cities and incorporated villages. But it was torney General (now Chief Justice.) to deter. very clear that a vested right of property in a mine whether the legislature had the power to city or village was not a matter of city or vil. divide the town of luntinaton. The Attorney lane organization. Under these circumstances, General reported, as Mr M. contended the law as this was a matter of vast importance to the was-that a division of empire worked no city lhe in part represented, lie moved the refer. change in the rights of property-and that in ence of the sebect to a select committee of five. regard to public rights, the legislature had lu!l Mlr. MURPIHY was happy to hear the gen. power. lt'gentlemnen would refer to the thetliean say that the resolution did not affect tlhe Attorney General's opinion, they would finl rights o'\citizens of any portion of the state. that he declared these clauses which Mr. M Mr. SHEPARD meant to say that it did not proposed to expungc, to be a perlect nullity, so particularly affect citizens as to require its and as having no business there. Why then reference to the committee on their rights, &c. should not this subject go to a conmmittee seEvery thing that coull be done here must at' lected fiom the body of the house, and peculiarly lect every citizen directly or indirectly. qualified to take charge of the rights of citizens, Mr. MURIPHY understood the gent!eman.- whether of the city of New-York or any other But the gentleman, in speaking of this reter. part of the state. And lie knew that there were ence, had fallen into the very error, which it those in this city and New-York, who did not was the design of the resolution to remove.- believe that chartered rights were of such a na. Mr. M. originally proposed a reference to two ture as to prevent-an exercise of sovereignty committees; but upon reflection, gave the whole here, with a view to correct evils. No. The a direction to one committee-to that on the spirit of a Leggett still lived there, and there rights ai nd privileges of citizens-and as he sta. were many, very many there, who wished to ted the other day, because the clauses propo. see this doctrine of vested political rights bro. sed to be struck out, were in that article of the ken up. With a view to have this matter constitution which related eatiely to that sub. brought before us dispassionately, and by a 120 committee composed of no member from such pi)lts (o' lhe state as were peculiarly liue. tebted interested in it-he had moved the reler. e.ice to committee number eleven, at the head of lhich was one of the most venerable and dist.rguished members of this body. Mr. bSHEPARD remarked that to examine the section which tie gentleman from Kings had introduced, would be to discuss the merils ol the question, with which at this time we had noth. ing to do. The gentleman hdd not answered his; objections. Supposing that the seventh article of the present constitution was entirely made up of an enumeration of the rights and privile. ges of the citizens of the state, that would prove nothing in favor of the proposed reference, be. eaile they had appointed eighteen standing coimmittees and relerred to them various subjects, without reference to the various parts of the constitution in which they might be now.His colleague (Mr. MORRIS) had reported on the veto power, and on some other things which were not found in the same article of the present cunstitution. The gentleman from Kings had placed in his (Mr. 8.'s) lips, arguments which lie had not used; and tlese the gentleman had answered, not those which Mr. S. had in fact used. Now, he did not stand there the advocate of royal grants, except so far as they were sanetionej by the people, and such vested rights he had supposed were secured, though the gentleman seemed to think they were not. They were protected by the genius and spirit of our laws. Niow, there was a large class of rights which the c.tv of New-York exercised. It was an ex. tensive corporation, an] stood in two relations to the people at large-first, as a large political corporation, exercising rights of political gov. ernent; and next, as a large private corporation, exercising the rights of a private corporalion. Those rights had been secured by a long chain of statutes and charters, and it appeared to him it would be unwise, as the gentleman stated, to avoid a popular misconstruction, hastily and without examination to cast aside sections of the constitution which were inserted by a wise foresight by the convention of 1821, for the purpose of securing these private rights.He wil-hed the examination to be made by the proper committee. He had no objection to the comrnittee of which the venerable gentleman froimDulchess (Mr.TALLMADGE) waschairman, except that according to the order which the Convention had adopted, lhat committee had ntlhing to do with the subject. This he thought a conclusive objection. He sawno alternative, -but lie saw in the magnitude of the question itself everything that could tall for a special committee. M r. MORRIS agreed with the gentleman from Kings that the proper reference was to the committee on the rights and privileges of citizens. He also agreed wilh the gentleman as to the law on this subject, and le was not aware that there had been any different opinion entertained since the delivery of the learned opinion to which the genlletlan had referred. No man contended that political power given to a corporation could not be touched, but all contended thatit required a two-third vote under the constitution, whether the power was granted by king or given by peo. pie. There had been no difference of opinion on that subject. There had been no man any where, even though.lle spirit of Lggettl wese not there, that would contend for a doctrile such as his friend had so eloquently urgued against. And when we lawyers said priLvate rights, we e.lnt the rights of corporations as welt as of individuals. 'The proper ro(nlmuite, no doubt, was the committee on the riglls and privileges of citizens-citizens in tlie largest sense-whether made by God or manulactured by legislature. Mr. SHEPARD was nct before aware that corporations were citizens. He was cbliged to his colleague for the informatiol. The question was then put on referring to the eleventh standing committee, and it was agreed to. ELECTIONS BY THE PEOPLE. Mr. CLYDE offered the followirng which was agreed to:hesolved, That it be referred to the conmitnee on the appoilntmenet, tenure, &c., of locatl ofif er', to e.i quire into th- expediel y oif providing ill the couJistin. tion tfr the electi i by tie pIeole, ti conlity Ittaurers, district attorneys, an t burrogates. TRIAL I;Y JURY. Mr. MILLER offered the following, which was agreed to:Resolved, lhat it be referred to the committee on the rights and IYivileges of clrizens of hi: 1t. i-, to exainiie into the expeldie, y of ilncorporating into the conslitltiuti the follow nig ar icle:The riglt of trial by jury s.hall tlei er remain in iolate, bitt the legislttluie FsIhall h;iv power in ItS ile cire. tion to fix t.e nutmber and to determine the ni;1titcr of drawinlg and -electing, and to fix the comtpentlsaion both of the Grand atd Petit jury. The PRESIDENT presented to the Conven. tiorn a communication from the Secretary of State, containing a list of all officers whose duties are local, as required by a resolution of the.Convention. On motion of Mr. ANGEL, it was referred to the seventh standing committee; and 250 extra copies were ordered to be printed on the motion ot Mr. SHEPARD. The PRESIDENT also presented a communi. cation from the Comptroller, in relation to the Common'School, Literature, and Deposit funds -called for by resolution. Referred to the committee on common schools, and ordered to be printed. UNFINISHED BUSINESS. On the motion of Mr. STRONG the Conven. tion proceeded to theunfinished business, which was the question of granting leave to the committee of the whole to sit again on the article reported by Mr. MORRIS, defining the executive powers, duties, &c. Mr. KIRKLAND having the floor, continued and concluded his remarks which were interrup. ted by the adjournment yesterday. He did net intend to detain the Convent;on long, fir the debate of yesterday had elicited concessions which would render unnecessary much that he should otherwise have felt inclined to say.When we adjourned yesterday lie was speaking of the form of.the report, which was a general proposition and applicable to no particular part of the constitution. It had been conceded that 121 the report should have shown on its fact, what anen Iments were proposed to tile existing constitution, and thus a part of his object had been substlantially attained,-an object which hal beel carniel out by the resolution adopted this morning, diiecting the printing to be done, so as to Ilist.,tuish the amendments reconrmended from the old constitution. That would enable the members of the Convention to see what chngens were proposed. But hereafter another queston would arise, whether the amendinents teieselves should ble submilted to the people, or wviethtr the entire constitution should be submitted, both such parts as were old and su h as were new. But on that he would not now dwell. Many members and miany citizens had almost come to imagine tlat we were l!~re bor the pu.-pose, not rnly oi proposing amlenlnents to the constitution, but for the purposes of' general legislation; and he wSas exceeJiing y apprehensive, un ess we were ve"y guarde l, t:at we should be found comrniltinll the great fiult of imtagining ourselves really a legi-lative body, rather than a Convention.This was it oririnal with him, for it was the remnark of many gent emen of the Convention. ie objelie I to tlhe lorm of this report, because it contaitnel subjects which were entirely within the.cope of the legislature e re eferred, for illustratlo;n, to the section fixing the Governor's salary at $1,0()00. This was a matter which shoull be left to legislative control, as it had been for tihe last 23 years, and for which there was now ample provision. Eo in regard to the section fixing the remuneration of' ttie Lieut. Governor. lie obje-ted to it because it contained trifling an.l unnecessary amendments, and because he believel that thie constitution should be amended only where amen.lments w re indispelsable. lie objected forther, because it contained provisions that would be nugatory. lie alluded particu!arly to the section by which it was proposed to give the Governor power to surren ler fugitives from justice to foreign pow. ers-a sectiont which woull conflict with the constitution ofthle Union. In support ofthe position lie quoted a decision in thecase of 'olmes, J;imeson an] others, fiom 14 Peters' Reports lie also referred to the treatyof Washington, by which this government entered into stipulations with the governanent of Great Britain for the surrender of futitives; and since, like arrangements hafl been imade by treaty with other powers. He also quoted the language of the Chief Justice in the case referred to, in support of his position tlat the constitution shoul. be devoid of unnecessary verbiage, which would give rise to complexity in its interpretation. Being so objectionable then in itself, as well as in point of form, lhe thought the committee should not have le;ave to sit again upon it Mr. STRONG said he had looked forward with a great deal of anxiety, and he believ. el the people of this state had been lookin? with equal anxiety, to the time when this Convention would go into committee of the whole, and beain to do what I" ight be called the substantial work of the Convention. They did yesterday enter upon this order of business, and he had heard a i.umber of members express their suprise that they should be deterred from going ott with that'biSiness, in the mannei they had been. They expressed great disappoint. ment, for they had expected wiien they got into committee, that they shoull go to work earnestly. But Mr. S. was not disappointed. He well knew that his honorable frietnd fronm Oneida was charged with a speech, and it' he did not deiy — er it, it imight prove injurious to him. [Laugh. ter.] He was s'tisfiel also, that that gentleman would take the very first opportunity to deliver it, ani in that too le had not been disappointed; for the gentleman had taken an early opportunity, and not a very proper one for his purpose. lie would not have said a word on this oc. casion but for that speech of' the honorable gentleman. It was calculated to mislead, if not met with a prompt reply. There was great danger to be a )prelended froln the eloquent speech of one who had the ability to spread out his views in such glowing language and in such sailitig sentences, [laughter] and therefore lie would attempt a brief reply on one or two points. The gentleman had relerred to the report of his honorable friend from NewYork, (Mr. MoRRIs)-who Mr. S. might as well here say, needed not his aid to defenil that re. port: he wielded a giant tongue [laughter]an' hall taken various objections to it. The genlteman said that they were assembled there to carry out the act of tlie legislature, lwhich he interpreted to be simply to make aimetlndments to the Constitulion. Now it was the easiest thing in the world for a nian to begin with false premises, autl lo come to such conclusions as he de-ired. He did not know much about the phrases that the lawyers would use on such an occasion, but when their case was a hard onewhen they had up-hill work-they always began with false premises, and the conclusion was of the same character. Now the genitle man started in the first place with the assumption that the Convention had no other poweer and authority than that which was given it by the act to which he had ref'ered. Where did the gentleman learn that? Mr. S. went beyond that act. He would ask the gentleman-and he asked the question in all kindness a-id good f'eling-where he found authority lor the legis. lature to pass such an act? Was there a word in our old constitution to confer it? How then came they by the authority to pass an act respecting this Convention in any Inanner? Anl yet they had restricted this Convention in Iany respects-its pay lo" instance-but they haIl no authority to do that. We were under no such control. We were not tbound by one line of that act; because the Convention was a legislature oVer and above the legislature by which the act was passed. [Laughter.] Now if these were correct prenises, on what foundation did the gentleman base his ar. gument? The next subject which he gentleman took up was one which Mr. S. found it di'. ficult to answer, not understanding all about it. [Laughter.] If, therefore, he did not get it right, he hoped he should be excused, and not charged with intentional misconstruction. Per. haps it would be better to read fron the notes which he took of the gentleman's speech, whe e he founl these words: "the gentleman sa)s something about several sections of the repol 122 being in hack verby." [Roars of laughter.]-) Mr. DANA stood corrected-adding that the Now, being a layman, a plain farmer, he hon. gent'eman from Monroe lhad something ul' tle estly conies-ed he did not understand that- lawyer in him too. [Laughter.] Mrl. D. went [Laughter]-but he did not believe the gentle- on to say tlat having written,ut soime retmrllls ian iten ed to l Jy a clap-trap fur us [Laugh- ill reply to the gentleman from Oneida, antl n(,t ter.J He (lid not know how, or he would ex- having committed lhem to eniemry, he would 1p.a 1; he'd g.ve reasons on this subject but he read them, with the permnission of lhie louse. di.i not understand the terms. [Laughter.]- The question was. whether we shouldl go Ie hlowever would illustrate it by an anecdote. again into committee on this report? le Thee were two French bairisters disputing one would do this as an act of couitcsy to tlie day about some law point, but they could not committee fiom whom it came-and tlhere I.ave scttle it. At length one sai.l to the other we'll it fully discussed, wi.ethcr it was made ulp of leave it to tte juige, an: that beiig agr-ed on, parts of the old constitution, or was new —thit oiie of them siated tlhe case, but the judge made amendments mighlt be offered to it. Ile had n, repiy —lie merely shook his head. "Ah!' re. amendments to offer himself. Among others, tiarited the other tb;rri-ter,' when my lord shakes one to abolish the office of' Lieut. Gou ernor. — l.ii,ead there's nothing in it."' [Renewed laug h. Several other members, lie knew, desired to of. ter.] Hie would now come to tihe gentleman's fer amendmer.ts. The position (ol the gecnllethird proposition, that according to the language man from Oneida, that we were bounl by tle (of the act, they were to make atmendments only; act calliig us together, to submit naked;nlnlldlan 1 here hle would say a word on behalf of his ments only to the peoplo, he thought an unlir. 1frielli's report. tuppose his friend had made a tunale one. For it happened that the very secrepolt containing sections with but a few words tion of the Convention act to whi(h the lientlen.licre; if he had left out all but the new man referred to sustain it, was nearly in the wvorIs, what sort of a skeleton would it have precise language of the act of '21, so lar as it been? II' we altered a section but one worl, prescribed the duty of the Convention of that was it not then an amendment? If we were to year. And yet tat convention dil n(t sul mit send it to the people as the gent'enian from naked amnendmemnts —but an entire constitution, Oneida desired, we would send iothing hut which the people ratified, and thus endorsed tliher snatches of a constitution-a little here and a action. Nor did Mr. D. see any greater force in little th;ere-and the people would not know the objection that some of tl:e sections of' this what it amounted to. He thought it was our article were proper suibjectscf leislaticn. Tlat duty to send it down so tiat the people might I was no reason why we should not go into corn. unitr.rtand it-not in such a shape that they m mitte c(n it-nor any insuperable objection to must take the old constitution, and perhaps botlh miaking such constitutional provisions. Again the old constitut.ots, to see how it would read i if thls a ticle contained provisions in cniflict whien amended, and may be, have to consult a with the constitution of' the United States, tlIe lawVer' to kniow' u hant it means. stronger the reasa n why we should go into corn1Mr. DANA remarked that lie was not a little mitiee cn it. And as lo the rema:niing argument sul prised the olher day, after le supposeU we that the course adopted by the committee, was laymien would be permitted to put our thouhlts not the couise called for by the peop'e, Mr. D. down on paper. and read them there n the forml ihad only to say, tlat it was begging the ques. ot slpeeches, to hear his riht honorable friend tion-taking for granted wliat shluld have Letn, liom(11 Monroe (Mr. STRONG) brinning up a 1)ar. but was not attempted to be proved. Mr. 1. ltamenltary rule even against that. But he ccncluded by urging it was due to the commiit. foun. that gentleman to-day, arailing himself tee not less than to the subject to go into corn. of that privilege pretty freely, by using a brief' mittee on the entire report. of' some length, in the speech he had just de- Tle question was taken, and leave was gran. livered., ted to sit again. MIr. STRONG replied that the rule had a lit- Mr. TILDEN moved the re-printing of the tle more to it. The rule was that you should art c!e as amended-which was agr(ed to. irot read a writ;en speech for the mere purpose Adj. to 11 o'clock to-morrow morning. of conSuming time. FRIDAY, JUNE 26. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. FISHER. ithereon,-which after being amended by Mr. Mr. MANN presented the memorial of Archi STRONG, was adopted. bald Walt, in relation to proceedings in clance- Mr. J. J. TAYLOR moved a change of refer. ry anrl it %as referred to the committee on the ence of certain returns which had been sent to judiciary. the committee olffive, to the commiittee on the ju'The PRESIDENT presented a communica. diciary, which was agreed to. tion from the Secretary of State, in answer to a Mr. J. J. TAYLOR stated that the returns resolution in relation to the distribution (if the fiom surrogates were all in except 13, anl fr..m common school fund, which was referred and county clet'ks except 15, and he desired to h ve crlered to be printed some intimation whether the committee of five Mr. MORRIS offered a resolution directing should complete and report their abstract, or the reports of committees to be printed on sized wait for the residue. paper, to enable members to write amendments Mr. BASCOM said he thought sufficient had 123 _ ^ * - ^ _____I ______ been received to accomplish the object contem- EXTRA COMPEV'SXTTON OF OFFICERS-POWER plate I, an I therefore he moved that the commit. TO SUE THE STATri. tee be instructed to report, with all convenient Mr. SWACKHAMER submitted tlhe follow. dis)patch, an abstract ot those already received. ing resolution, which, after being verbally corT'llis motion was agreed to. rected, was adopted: Heolvfd,Thtt the committee No. two he r-qteted to FUDUS IN CHANCERY. report an amnendment ti tihe convtitunioi, prohibitig Mr. RHOA DE'S cnllel for the consideration the legislature frotn granting extra aoomtpeni-ation to Mr. RHOADES calle for te consideration y offic r, agent, servan' or putlic conrtLatir iftter of his resolution offered some daye since, and such public service,haill have b, en perfo.imi-l or con. lai.l on the table at the sustres'ion of the gentle. t a ted for; also prohibitin ithe p;ymnet rof in.,i y man ront Ontario (Mr. WORDEN,) and the gen. ou ofthe rea ury, wlen thie sa:i e shi I toi havel i>s. tiem in Ironl Herkirer (Mr. Loomis,) in relation pvides r hy aeexi-ig laiw; ales, to ruvd thla der, o aty perFon hivitig cl inlls g intl thle st lf, ti"y ltle to the fun Is under the juris liction of the court for sict demand in like m.nuier as is now th prattlce of cillhtcery. Lit was published at the time it between individuals in similar cases. was o I-red ] LE:tTURE bY Mh. OWEN. r. \VORI)EN suggested (the resoluticn hav- Mr. MORRIS offered the fol owing, which inig been taken up) an amenlment to the first was adopted, after he had expl;ineJ that ir. section. Hle supposed the object of the gentle. Owen, a (listinguished philanthropist, was in the ran Ifrom Onondargato be toascertain theamount city. and as had devoted mclh tho;~ht to of tie tun is belotging to suitors that are at the cer:ain subjects in which this convention was dispsal of the court of chntncry, enibracing ev. interested, many friends desired to hear hilm:cry dlecritition of unfls. That information he Resolvy d, Thatt the t'onvention Pritrt to I{,,hert sutpllsed would be very important when they Ow,-n. esq, Ih-' iisC of Itis chantl er Ihi. evening fur s',oul come to cor;si ler whether the court of the purpose o' delivering an address threir..!lian-elry should be abolishe I, for it would be D) UBIE,OFlFICtHtltOt.lING. necessary, he apprehended, to miake oe con. Mr. STOW offered the following, which was.tilutional provision in regard to those funds.- adoptel, after an explanation of the reasous It rmilht thieretre be poper to extend the pn- why lie desired it to go to comiittee number six luiries to the c!erks of the several equity dis- there being no other stnnding committee to i. i iis-the clerks of the vice-chancellors' courts; which it could be properly reerred: nid Iience he woull Iiove to insert the words p ern a. I. I esolved, Thait no person holding any civil office ' n I tile clerks of the several vice-chancellors',,nder tihe governmnt it of this s s h', h:ll hidd sany t,)Uits," which would enable the Convention to civil olfict lider thi e gvere r eiit of the Utiied lt tates, let returns respecting all the fun:ls in chancery.,r aly office froti:Iry foreign stt e; a;ln the::ccelplIMr. RHOADES la I no objection to any nio- e.y h ifier te U.. r I ig^ stie lification that would accomplish the object con- governmeit of th, s a;e lemilalte I. an I as lie perceivel tie genile-:ran EXECU rIVE POWF;RS AND DUTIE i on Ontario hal in view the satne,bject as On m n of r M Conventir re as On motion of Mr. MANN the Conventicn re. hiniself, lie a.lopteJ the gentleman's suggestion olved itself' into committee whole on te re. to te o tsolved itself into committee oft whole on the re. to make perfect the resolution which his sour. ces of Infinrnmatin hadl not enabled him to make iort made by Mr.MORRIS fr'om the filth stand. sufiiettlv ceti-tpe~hehnsive. ging committee, o'i the duties an] powers f'the Mr. WORI)EN then suggested an amenlment executive. Mr. CHTATFIELD in the chair. The Chairman state I tie quektion to be on to the last clause. to a id the words " nnd pro- the first section to bell o: pelty" a;lter the wor.ls " all other funds." the rst section, as IollolS:MIr TALLMADGE said as he understood it n. Th- fx' c itive p\eor shll I e vested in. g vPrthe resolution proposed to call upon the chancellor ten int gaiv rnor sha.l be chosen at the same tinte and to direct the clerks and registers to make certain for the same term. specific I returns, an.l he submitted if it would Mr. DANA offered an amen Iment to strike ntt be belter to change the phraseolory so ns to out the entire section ann insert tile following: call upon the chancellor to cause full returns to. The ex cutiv p wvrr of 'his s:lP h-Hll hf- vistret in be Ilmade of all moneys and property under the a governor wsvi sh.lh hold his office for two years, bit jurisliction of tle court of chancery, as that h"shtil nt, itiri g his triml of office be tligib e to any vwoul I embrace every thine hy a more compre othtr office or tpuhlic Irtit. heniive expression. He also suggeste. that the Mr. WORDEN suggesteR as an amenlmpnt to returns should only be called for up to the Ist the amendment to add to the word ' trust" the Jaituary instead of the 1st of June. words " under the government of this state." Mri. RHOADES assented to the latter sug- Mr. TILDEN enquired if this would apply o gestion, as that would answer every purpose. trusts ex officio. Mr. RUGGLES suggested that certain returns Mr. DANA said he so intended it. were annually made to the Chancellor by the Mr TILDEN did not see any particular rea. clerks to the 1st of January, of the funds in their son why they should exclude trusts of that pssession, ani he had now in his possession nature. Tliere were many little publbic trusts those returns from the second circuit; if then. which it might be very convenient that the gov. these returns were calied for, they could be pro ernor should execute; tfr instance if he was cured witlhoit tmuchi difficulty; hlut if the more one of the Regents of tile University an I as comprehenaive returns were callel for, the) such one of the trustees of the Stlte L'brary. Vwoutll tmlake a large document, to prepare which Now was there any objection to that? He was wotull ltake timne. also a trustee of the stite capitol an I of t.e After some other conversation the resolution., pulic buillings, and he could not see that there as aumetalel, was agreed to. was any impropriety in the governor's executing V4 those duties; on the contrary, the governor was always here-he was connected with the public buildings in the performance of his executive function.,-and hence he was an extremely tit and proper person in common with other officers similarly situated, to execute such trust. The governor was also a trustee of' Union College, as had been intimated by a gentleman near him (a voice, and the Sailor's Snug Harbor) - and the " Sailor's Snug Harbor" as lie was informed. Mr. MORRIS:-What, the Governor? I think not, sir. Mr. TILDEN said at any rate there were various little fuiections conferred on the Governor that were peculiarly conzistent with his other duties, and in regard to which it seemed to him that no object of public utility was to be accomiplished by excludinr the Governor from the perflrmance of those duties If any reasons could he offered for the amendment lie should be glad to hear them. If there were any mischiefs arising therefirom which it was meet thatthey should remove or prevent, he should like to be informed of' them that they might apply a specific provi. sion as a remedy, an] not a general provision which would disable the Governor from the performance of certain duties which it was extremely convenient anl by no me;ns improper that lie should perform. Mlr. DANA wished the Governor to be separated fiom all other employments and devoted exclusively to the office of Governor of this state. If however, the committee should be (of opinion that the Governor should hold other offi. ces ex officio he would not object, but would con. sent to the addition of the following words, " or which he may receive no compensation." Mr. RRtOADES thought there was a great deal of' force in the remarks of the gentleman from New-York (Mr. TILDF.N), respecting the proposition of the gentleman from Madison, and he hoped that gentleman would be induceJ to moJify his amendment so that the Governor might be able to hold ceriain ex-officio offices of trust. According to certaiin inlications, they wfere about to divest the Governor of' a great part of his duties aid responsibilities which devolve upon him under the existing constitution; and besides, it might at times be convenient for the legislature to clothe the Governor with cer. tain powers, such as had been confided to him hlereto'ore-for instance, the location of the state prison in the North; to do which the Gov. vernor, lie believed, was associated with the Attorney General,,nd he thought the Comptroller also. There was grent propriety in this, for the Governor was an officer known to the people, and in whom the people would have more confidence than they would in a gentleman who was not so well known, or who might hold no office in any part of the state. He repeated his hopve that this provision would not be adopted; and he also hoped that the gentleman from Madison would see the propriety of modifying it so as to permit the Governor to discharge such duties. for it was probable that the duties of the office of Governor would hereafter be compara. tively light, as there was a disposition manifested to divest him of all patronage and of all power to grant pardons. Mr. 4WAC KIAIX t wta. it wr of strip. ping the governor of every vestige of power be. yond the necessary executive power. They had been told that the governor was trustee (f' cer. tain institutions. To this he was opposed; li:r the governor would naturally imbibe strcna pre. judices in favor of those institutions with which lie might be thus connected, and thus facilities might be afforded to them to prey upon the state. If the governor was to be deprived of all but the necessary executive power-and he had reason to believe such would be the result of their deliberations-he hoped they should eo further and take away Irom the legislature the power to confer upon the governor such authority as ha l teen adverted to. Mr. WORDEN, after a word or two of expla. nation, withdrew his amendment, and the question recurred on the original anmendment. Mr. LOOMIS said the object of this amendment appeared to him to be, to strike at the office of lieutenant governor. Now, he was a reformer; but he had no disposition to reform things unnecessarily. It appeared to him they should have an officer who might bee me governor in certain contingencies, such as the death or incapacity of the governor. It was also desirable that thnre should be a president of the senate. With respect to the otheroffices which the governor might hold, he was not aware of any complaint thit had been made. That the executive had been charged with too many du. ties. as to the appointing power, had bt en the subject of complaint; hut he was not preparel to say that he would deprive the executive cf that in all instances. He desired to reform and to amend the constitution wherever they found abuses have existed under it, but lie looked upon the executive of the state as one of the great branches of the government-as representing more than any other department, the sojvereign will and authority of the people. The executive was not less the representative o the pIeople than the legislature; he was the representative of the whole, while the members of the legisla. lure were representatives but of part, and hence the beauty of our system. He was disposed to leave the governor and lieutenant governor as at present constituted, merely correcting such errors as practice and experience had shown to exist, especially in respect to the appointmtnts of local officers. There were amongst those who objected to all the appointi g power being centralized here, many who thought that each locality was competent to discharge the duty vt appointing their own local officers. He was not prepared to say, at this stage of the debate. that he would not leave with the executive the ap. pointment of certain officers. He could well see, if' they elected all officers whose jurisdiction was general-and lie regretted that he had not a list of them before him, for there were many more than were contained in the list which they had received, whose jurisdiction related to the whole state and not to any particular partof ithe could well see, if they elected all state officers by general ticket, and the judiciary also, that there might be some difficulty But he was departing from. the question. He should merely add, that he should vote to retain the seclion in relatioj, to. t, U1tfltuai g 9erati; as. it. now stood. 125 Mr. DANA thought we should have no Lieu. tenant Govetrnor. If it was in order to discuss that question, he woul.l state why he thought it was Diesirable that we should not have such an officer. 'The CHAIR replied that it was perlectly in order. Mr. DANA continued -The only reason whlich the aenlleman Irom Herkimer had given for tle t ontinuance of the office was that they might have a presiding officer of the senate, andl a person to discharge the duties of Governor In case of the disability of the Executive-both o which could be provided for without employing a,erson at $6 per day fir a contingency. In regar to the presiding officer of the senate, he believed the s:-nate was competent to elect its own presiling officer; and in case of the death or disability of the Governor to perlbrm the duties of the office, he supposed in this stale as in others, the Presialent of the senate mighltact. In a large majority of the states of this Union there is no such officer known as a LieutnantGovernor, while here one is employel at a cost of $6 per day, and mileage for his travelling to preside over the senate, (although he had no vote there) and to be ready to occupy the office of Governor i' we should have a vacancy in ihat offie. Now he was disposed to make radical changes anl reforms-he would dispense with every officer that was not necessary lor the wants of tne people; but if it was necessary that the senate should haive some officer to presile over thiir deliberations, and the people would be be. nefitted by it, he should not object. He had yet to learn, however, that such necessity existed. 8cme gentleman had suggested that the Lieutenant-Governor's castiag vote might be necessary o;i an even division in the senate; but he (did not suppose that the presiding officer that the senate mieht elect would be deprivel of his vote as a member of that body, and if there should hle a tie, either he couldl possess the power to give the cisting vote, or in such case the motion might be considered lost, as in this body, on a tie vote. One gentleman had given soime reasons why the Governor should ex officio perform oilier duties; to which another gentleman had replied that he rnisht thereby become unduly interested in those institutions. Now this was an importint reason why the Executive si'ould not be thus employed. He might form improper prejudices in fltvor of ceitain institutions or portions ot the state which he might be called upon to visit. He (rusted they should be able to guard against any such consequences, and that they shoull make such constitutional provisions as woull enable the senate to elect its own presiding officer, by whom the state would be as well represented as it had been by the existing syste1n. Mi. BURR was in favor of the amendment, so far as striking out was concerned. He had intende I to propose that amendment himself: The other part of the motion he had not intended to include in his And he should prefer now to have the question divided-so that it might be t kea on striking out the provision in relation to tte Lieut. Governor. lie desired to strike that ofic out of existence. He had always regar. e iL. as tleg bel t thaU a siOecue-as. a use less wheel in the machinery of governmentand it tad better be dispensed with. The expense was a m atter of no cun.elueuice. 1' we needed such an o:fice he should be willinii to ply lo.r it. Other stales had dislpensed with this officer 1altogether-among them Ohio, New lampshire, Mlaine, Al:ibamna, Virginia, Delaware, New Jersey, and some others. Inleed, were he to Lake a model of a constitution from any stale, he would take that of' New Jersey, recently adopted. Unless lie could.ee miore necesity for reitainig this office than he now saw, lie should vote for so much of this amendment as proposed to strike it out. Mr. RICHMOND took ground against nbol. ishing the office of Lieut. Governor. Other slates, it was said, had no such otEcer, and got along equally well with us. He presumed we should get along well enough without; I,ut still, this was a large state. It hadl been very justly called the empire state; ani being the e.ipilre state, probably we should have a Lieut Gov. erw r as well as a Governor. He apprehended that we were not going to make a saving of' all that was paid to this officer now, if' we shoull have none. The presiding ofticers of the senate and assembly were in the habit of reciv. ing a larger compensat on than individual me:nbers oi' those bodies. An.l very jtstly andt properl)-for they had more laboriuus duties to perform-d-uties, when the house was nat in session also. Heretofore, or ever since members receivel $3 a day, the speakerof the house had received $6. [Several gentlenien Fcorrected Mr. R. here, an:l he took that back.] 3ut it the compensation of the Lieut. Governor was too great, reduce it-not dispense with the of. fice. A word as to stripping the Governor of all offices except those appertaining to his department. His first impressions were against this: but on reflection, he was disposed to sust;iin the proposition in part-not in full. But there were case.s where lie would prohibit the Governor fiom holding other olfices. For instance the office ol trustee of the higher scminaries of learning. That lookel well enough on the face of it, but on examination, it might not be found so well by and bye. These institutions were in the habit of coming here every year, asking donations to aid them in carrying on their operations. lie would not say that it was not proper to aid these higher seminaries; but he knew that this practice had been very much abused, and he believed that the Convention would agree with him, that the Governor, by being connected with these institautions, even as a mere matter of honorary sta;tin, might become enlisted in their favor, farther than lie would be otherwise. T' show the abuses that had existed, Mr. R., without giving names alluded to the case of the New York University, which, he said, when chartered, received a large donation from the state, and in the course of its operations became involved in a heavy debt for building materials to the agent of one of our state pris)ns —or rather individuals had become obligated for the amolunt. These individuals,however,who were abundantly able to pay, and were not connected willt the institution as officers, came. to. the legislature to be released from their boad, and tue ejslare 126 passed a bill for that purpose, and the Governor sigtie I it He only mentioned this to show, that a G).ve nor, by teing cotinncted wilh these in. slitutlull, 1ight be swayed from his duty, by the iact of rucli a connection. Now so,ar as the.e i.:slilulions were concerned,-aand he was in favor of learning in all its length and hreidlth — he wished to see the Go(vtrnor entirely sepla. rated from anty trusteeship in thenm. Havin, to review a:id sign these lills, he wanted him to stand there urllrtlrinmellel arid uncomminitted. As to the Governor'is Le ng trustee of the state buildings, Mr. P.. had no otbjec(ion to that. lie was as siltabllc a p)erson as any other; and he believe.l he woul l hav. lihe conriJlence of the pe pitmore than any other-because tney electe l him. Mr. MAlith IN would n;t now consiier tie question raised, in relation to the Governor's hold in. an execulive trust-because he aplpre. henled it was hest to pass tlhis section in siImple terms, anl i' it was desirable to impose re-tric. tions not heretofore imposed, an opportunity would be presented before we got through with this article. tie expressed no opinion on it now. He ha i supposed that one great object of elect. ing a Lieut. Go;vernor, was to have a man til take the place of' the Governor, in ca-e ol his death, or a vacancy existing from any causeand Ihat lie should be an officer elected by the swhole people. lie had supposed that was de. mocratic-that it was altogether a more democratic mode of filling the executive chair, than that in vogue in Pennsylvania or New-Jersey.lIe had supposed too that this was the most convenient mode-designatingr at the same time who should be Governor, and who should act as such, in a certain emergency. The pe pie acte I directly in the choice of' both; and when the Governor died, every body knew who was to take his place, as did the Vice President recently on the death of the President. There was no commotion, no confusion. 'lTe peo. ple had ordered it all in the fundamental law. Those who proposed to get rid of the Lieut. Governor, must proviJe ior filling the office of Governor, if he died, in some way.Would they say that the presiding officer of the senate should act as such? But how was he to be nimde presiding officer? Iow was he to be elected, in the first instance? Mr. M. took it for granted that we were to have senate dis. tricts. If' the districts remained as now, then; we should have a governor placed over us, in whose election orioinally, only one-eighth of the people participated. It' there were more dis. trict,, a still less number would have a voice in his selection. Was this democratic? Gentlemen tnight say that lie would be chosen by the whole senate. Very well. Was not that one remove frtom the people? Would not the people give up the power of electing their Governor, and cnfler it on men elected in difierent sections by the people of the localities? 3ut Mr. M had extended his remarks further than he intended. But he had always supposed it to he democratic to provide for filling the office of Governor by the direct action of the whole people. Ife subm.tted to the gentleman from Madison and oth. ers whether tnat was not the correct, democra. tic view of' the subject. [Cries of t question," "4 questioa.' I I I I I Mr. BURR askel if it woul be in crler.o cr 11 for a division of the question? The CHAIR replied t.at un.ler the rulle re. ccndly alopted, a motitn to strike out and insert was in'divibit)le The question was here put cn striking out and inserting, and iofot. Mr. HUNT now rose to move an amendtent, but gave \ ny lo Mr. SItMMONS,;vho moved to amend, by ad. ding, after the word Governor, vWhere it first occuls, as ftl'.ows::"' And i s sit h suhbdin:ite officers as are crreatid by llis cti -illltiii., r tl;t.y be at ati,y timie collti, tled by liWV for (til iltste." Mr. SIMMONS apprehended that these worls or something to that effect, were inadvertently omittel in the prese;,t con-tilution. Because, as it now stool, it was evi letitly false. It was not true in fact that thie extcut.ve power could be vested in a governor, if we had subordinate executive officers in the state. The supreme executise power, It was true, might be vested in a gonernor. But it would be well to have the three departmtents appear in consistency with each other. We should not siy that the judicial power should be vested in the hihlest court, but in the whole judiciary. The sut preie ( xecliive however was in the gvernor; Iult it would be proper to say, and insuch subordinates as are created by this corstiution, andl by coiutmon law or statute. Blackstone told us that the governor was the sheriff of the state, and that every sheriff was conversely a kin.J 't a governor as to the executive power of his county. All ministerial anl admtinistrative officers were exercising executive power subordilnately to the Governor. To say that the executive power was vested in the Governor alone, would ntit be consistent with what we say of the legislative nnJ judicial departments. Judicial pow;er was vestej in a supremIe and subordinate courts.The executive was supreme, but there were subordinates. This was something imoic than a mere matter of lorm The attie question once arose in the U. S. governmentll-anJ exeit. ed more feelilng and a more able discussi n than any question of' power for a number o; y3ars.And the matter was never settled until adjudicated by the supreme court of the U. States. The case was that of Kendall, who claimed, ns the supreme executive power was vested in the Presi. lent, without naming subolrdinates, and as the Presidenit nominated the heads of departments, he had the authority of making certain adjudica. lions and decisions in his del)artmenlt and that he was not therefore accountable to the lIgisla. live acts of congress. After solemn argumetnt. the supreme court unanimously decided, that in distributing powers to subordinate exectitive officeis, they must he taken to be sub. ject to law. He urged that it would be we.l, both to secure propriety of language and to avoid dispute or collision, to put his amendmen', in some form in tl,is section. And the Iest form that had suggested itself to him, was the one lie had rut in writing. Mr. SIEPARD agreed with the gentleman from Essex'in his view (of this section.' It certainly was incorreet in its terms. le vwould suggest, however, a shorter furm of avoidijg teh 127 inaccuracy-a form used in the constitutions of MA;ine.:l;tssnclhu-elts, Connecticut, Mis-ourli. niiil others. lic wouldl sutest 1he word;' suptrenie" executive power. Or. if the gentleman I likelt it bttter. lie would use the word in tie constiittion ol Virginia, the "chief" executive power shalll be vested in a Governor. lie moved to insert the word ' chielf" belore executive. The C lAl it suggested that this was not strictly an anienll ment to tle amendment now under consi era ion-and Mr. St1 hPAIt D waived itfor the present. Mr. Sl I MMONS was not tenacious about the form, though lie alpprehlended the word supreme mihllt lead to some dilticulty. The governor miglht say, I am supreme as to a question be. tween hint and subordinates. Still it would do better than cliefl We might say that supreme executive powerv should be vested in the legislature, and yet we gave s:)ine legislative power to other bodies. The better way woull be perhaps to say that all executive power is vested in a governor (who was supreme of course) and in such subordinates, &c. as stated in his amendinent. Alr. MORRIS sai I it appeared to him that the form of expression in this section, properly considereld, taken as it was f>'om the old constitution, was infinitely preferable and less likely to be misiunderotood, than the amendment of the learned gentleman fronm Essex. Stch a form of expression as that proposed, would make all these subordinates equal to the Governor; for every thing in it applicable to the one was equally appllicable to the other. Certainly tliat was inot the intention. Least of all could the gentleman intend that the legislature that we had comie here to place within reasonab'e and proper bounds, should by this constitution be authorized to make a supreme executive power in the state, as often an I as many as they chose. Mr. M. supposed the grentleman's intention was precisely whait this clause, in Mr. M.'s judgment, exl)ressed-that the executive power should be vestel in a Governor. What execulive power? The executive power of the state. What was tiat? The supervisory power over subordiinate executive olicel's in the countiessui-:h ar your sherilfs. One ol the-e sections irox'iled that he shlouli take care that tl.e hrws be flitlil'u'ly executed. Thlat came within the executive po\wer, and was cc-extensive with the state. Ie was to see that thie laws were faithfully executed. By vwhom? By subordinates. who 1had local and special executive powers. If \we should say the supreme executive power of the state. the question might arise whether there was mt a l.iadle of dillerence intended between the supreme power and other lp)ower co-extensive w'tlm tile slate. It iight be regardel as cinive. ing less power tian we intended, or than wa.1 nw.riveni to him. His ilmpression was that t1he clause of' the ol( constitution, being sli(orlter and more com(tlpreensive. carried out flully I1he intention of the people in regard to the (io\ ermii('. iMr. S f'l'A),RI) supplosed the section to be inclrn tlt. Ile did not a-re!e with his colleague (Mr\l. MoRis) in regard to its accuracy. There were otliher executive olficers in the state besides the governor. 'The only constitution in the whole Union,that he recollected at the moment, thit contained this form of expression, was tne jconstitution of New-Jersey. It was suggested to hiin, however, that tle Unite.d States co.iititution contained the same phrlaseology. But it was incorrect, for all th;at. There was no prac. tical inaccuracy about it. All knew wlat it meant. But, as the gentleman from Essex had suggested, there was a clear, verbal inaccuracy here. That had been avoided in other states by us-ing the word supreme or chief executive power-or by saying that the governor shall be the chiel executive officer, and defining his powers in the constitution, leaving the legislature to de. line the powers of other andi local executive oficers. Nearly all the constitutions in the Union had avoided this difficulty. We could, and it seemed to him desirable to do so. lie prelerreJ, on the whole, to vary his proposition so as to say, the chief executive officer ol the slate shall be the governor. That would relieve it of any odious interpretation that might be given to the word supreme, aii would leave a perfect. ly clear and definite meaning. Mi. SIMMONS aJmitted that no practical difficulty had ever arisen under this section. The only reason lor inserting it, would be to avoid any possible implication, that by virtue of all executive power being vested in the governor, all subordinates were tecessarily to act at his discretion, and not by law. Hfe had very little choice, a, between his own amendment and the proposed addition of the word supreme. Perhaps it was not worth while to alter it at all.But it was false in itself on the face of it. Or else it created a monarchy. If all executive power was vested in a governor and he loun:d it out, lie would live in the state no longer. [A lauIh.] Mr. DANA inquired if the law shoullI ereate officers with executive powers, whether they could not exercise such power, notwithstanling this? Mr. blMMONS replied that that was the very question here. Gentlemen differed about phra. seology. As the section stood, it vested the whole executive power of the state in the Governor. If that were so, then every sheriff, every constable, every admiinistrative and executive officer in the state, was a mlere hand or linger (as he was cal ed at Washington) of the Governor. And the question might be whether these officers were amenable to the Executive or to the law. The new constitution of Iowa gave the supreme executive power to the Go. vernor. I' that was sufficient to indicate the proper functions of the Governor, giving him a supervisory executive power over subordinates, leaving them not merely the lingers and hands of the executive, but organs of tlie law, then he should be content. We wanted no subordinates who could shield themselves fromn the law under the wing of executive direction and control. Mr.STOW said he should not have taken part-in this debate, did he not suppose there was a principle involved here beyoud that immediately involved in the amendment. The propo)sition was to alter the phraseology of the section, without changing its substance. Now, all professional men were aware of the important consequences, that sometimes Tesated from the change of n t e people wMold have more time for other mat. sigle ward, even in the statute law. These ters than the election of officers, and our officers coneequences the wisest men could not foresee would have more time for tiheir legitimate du. It' we were to conmmnee in the first section of ties. the conduct and policy of our government the new constitutton, to alter well defined and would be less uncertain and unstable. By exwell,ettled language, there would be no end to tending the term of offices generally, we sould the alterations we slould make, and no end to have more competent officers, an l lewer bung. the difficulties that must grow out of it. His ling apprentices in office. Experience, (saidl objection was that here was a phrase the mean. Mr.H,) is requisite for the riaht and prompt per ing and intent of which was well known-anJ formance of the duties of every office. He who witltl: for hall' a century had received a pracli I:as it not, must be to some exlent a deputy to cal, undisputed construction. All knew the his own clerks, who often have ends ol their own meaning ot it. And it' so, why adopt language to accomplish, and are never responsible to the that all might not know the meaning ol'? Gen. people. It may be said that by extending the tlemen seemled to think they could express the Governor's term of office, we increase his pow. same thing more definitely. But could they er for evil as well as for good. Admitted. He agrce among themselves as to what the new could do more of voluntary good or harm during phraseology would mean? And it we, who were his third year, than lie could during the first to adopt it, could not agree as to its meaning two years of his term, because he then knows how were those whio were to come after us, the precisely what springs to touch, what wires to juJiciary, the executive, the legislature-the pull, in order to effect his object. But lo compeople, to understand it? He repeated that it pensate for this we should have fewer official was dangerous to change written and well settled blunders, which are to be guarded against as law. The alteration of a single word in the Eng. well as crimes. Besides, it does not fullow that lish law in relation to frauds, cost the people ol because an experiencedI engineer can blow up England more than fifty thousand pounds sterlir.- his engine more effectually than a mere learner, -and yet it was extremely doubtful whether the that he would therefore be more likely to do so. intentton of the legislature was to change the Some will say that by prescribing short terms of law 1t1 substance at all. Hence it was that in office, the people can eet rid of an unfaithful or our own state, when the laws were revised, the incompetent officer with less delay than they principle was adopted not to change the phrase- could if the term were lengthened. True, but ology of law that had receiveJ a practical con- the people have no right to elect an unfit man struction for a series of years, and that con ifor their Governor; and whenever they may do struction all one way. Did any one ever hear a so, I would sentence them to live under his ad. doubt expressed as to the meaning of this sec- ministration for the full term of three years, tion? He hal heard none. WIy raise a doubt without a hope of reprieve or pardon. TI;e pinn. about it? Why, especially. attempt to substitute ishment would not be a whit too great for tl.e words the meaning of wlich we could not agree offence, and the peop:e need not subject them. upon? As to this phrase, supreme executive selves to it unless they choose. lundreds of' my Iower,he denied that thatwasAmnericandoctrine. constituents have complained to me of the Ire. Ie insisted that there was no supreme exeeu- quency ot' our elections; none, that our elections tive power in our government-overruling and are too few. It'we cnoose our Governor for controlling, as the phrase implied, the judicial, three years and our legislature for two, we shall legislative and all other powers in the state. It reduce the present election tax upon our lime would be asserting a principle at war with the and faculties nearly one half', and the public history and genius of our government. He ap. will Le much better served. pealed to members to consider well before they The amendment was lost. set the precedent ol char ging the hxed and well Mr. DODD proposed to remodel the section, settled law of the land. so as without changing the meaning, to express The question was here taken, and Mr. SIIM. it in fewer words. 3IONS' amenldment was rejected. Mr. W. TAYLOR thought it not worth while Mr. SHEPARD now proposed to insert be. to change words merely, when the meaning was lore the word "executive," the word "chief." settlel an i clear. The amendment was negatived. Mr. DOD DL' amendment was negatived. Mr. DANA proposed to change the form Mr. STOW moved to add at the end of the slightly of the section-changing the word "he" section, as follows: to *'who", with a period after the word years. tRut the ( overnor and T.ieltenant Governor wvn Also striking out the word "and" and making shall be chosen at Ihe next ele tli(,, shall hold ti eir a new sentence of the portion relating to the respective offices (uly or one year" Lieutenant Governor. Mr. STOW said the effect of his amendment 'I'he amendment was lost. would be to change tie time of holding our e. Mr. HUNT moved to strike out "two" be. lections an: his object was to separate our fore "years," and insert "three." state elections from the presidential contest. lie Mr. HUNT remarked that by extending tile thought we should not blend our state elections Governor's term of'office to three 3eais, as was and policy with that of the general government. the case under our old constitution, our election But he would not argue the question. He sub. for Govertior and that for President would very mitted it to the good sense of the Convtnt.on seldonm occur at the same time: consequently, whether we had not better submit for once to a our state executive would be chosen with more little inconvenience, than to have our state elec. express reference to state interests than is now tions foreverhereafter mingled up with national the case. By making our elections less fequet, politics. 129 Mr, BURR remarked that the propriety of the amen Iment would depend on the time fixed fur lite election in the new constitution. Mr. 'rOW rep ied that a governor must be elected this ia!l, and for two years. unless this clause was inserted-and in reply to an inquiry by Mr. DANA, sai.l his object was that the election lor Governor and President should not iall tolether in the same year. IMr. TILDEN suggested that it was uncer. tatl, as yet at what particular period the new c;nstitution would go into effect. It was rather p'cemature to assiume now at what particular pe. rio I the election lor governor under the new const.titin would first occur. Better defer this untii that question came up. Mr 8T()OW replied that we must elect a go. ve:or this hall, to come in next January. Mr. WORDEN was glad the proposition had been brought lorward, and he should be unwil. lini to see any vote taken now which would be regardled as decisive against it. He agreed some. whiat with the gentleman front New York that this was an after consideratiQn, coming up more appropriately when we had determined on some other matters. But he did not sec how it could well be laid over. We must take a vote on it. At present he thoug!it lie should vote against it. lie concurreJ however, in the propriety of separating these elections. If we did not so arrange it, he should be l;r returning to this, and giving it a fair and full consileration. If' voted down, the gentleman could renew it in the house. Mr. STOW preferlredl to withdraw it. Mr. WARD suggesteJ Ihat if the genileman withdrew it, he could not renew it in the house. Mr. 8'T'OW said he would then adhere to it. Mr. SIMMOLNS said the policy of every state rnd of this nation was infected with the disease wvhivh wa p)eculiar to liberty-instability and c:anoe. The best form of government had its peculiar inconveniences. The person who consented to live under a nonarchy was exempt fror' some inconveniences to which we were o iged to submit for the sake of a greater good. Arnd how were these chansres, and how was the instability of policy occasioned? Why by the great volume of' pub'ic senliment being concen. trated in executive officers. It had ceasel to be of mnuch imiportance who members of con. grers were, but when the executive was to be elected, parlies were organized for the election, and why? Because it was felt to be a truth that was developing itself gradually in practice, that whatever party had the PresiJent would have the Congress; in other words that the progress of our institutions was such as to rtnJer the legislature more or le's subservient to executive power; and instead of having the great mass of public intelligence represented by or embodied in the representatives of the people, to shape the policy of the state, they all felt it to be a truth that after all it was embodied in tie person of a Governor from one term to another. And so it was in respect to the election of President for the nation; and it was obvious that the accidental coincidence of the electiou for the state and for the nation had a strong in. fluence in bringing about a wrong driit of the public sentiment. Now if they could have these Glections-especially in the great state of New. 9 Ycrk-at different times, it would be obviously advantageous. Mr. MORRIS interposed to suggest-and thereby lie migrt save the gentleman fionm Es. sex the necessi:y of going through his argu. ment-that if this should be adopted, it could not go into operation until aller next 1 Il. The Governor must be ceected in November next. 'Ihe new constitution could nut be submlit:el to the people before that time, andl therefire could not go into operation this year, and thus the election would hereafter be brought so as ta coincide with the presidenltial electit n. Mr. SIMMONS said that might be, butit was imnlaterial, for he was only calling the atten. tion of the Convention generally to the ilipoitt atice cf the question. lie thought every lover of liberty would sec the necessity c:f so ar:anging the elect:ons as to avoid the concurrence ol two drifts of public sentiment, which would identify it with the executive chiefs rather thaln the representatives of the people. The question vwas then taken on Mr. STOW'S amendment, which was negativel. The CHAIR then announced the question to be on the second section. which was read by the Secretary as follows: Q 2. No person except; native citizen of the United Stales shall I e ligible to the office of povcrnor. Iior.h:II any person be eligible to that ofic who shall niot have attained the age o thirly ya;irs, and hive been hve years a re ilent within this slate, unless lie shall have been aibsent during that tim*r on public business of':he United St, tes, or of this state. Mr. MURPHY moved to amend by striking out the word " native" in the first line of the section. He said if the committee should adopt thii amendment, he should follow it up by another of a more general character, believing that qualifications for the elected differing from the qualifications for electors, to be inconsistent with the spirit of our government. As had been remarked by the gentleman from Onondaga (Mr. RHIOADES), the Governor to be elected under the constitution that this Convention was likely to frame, would have little or no power or patronage. His office will be purely administrative They intended to confer on the people -and in that he concurred-the power to elect their officers of almost every de.cription. iHe might say the tendency of this Convention was to give to the people the election of all officers; and yet they proposed in this section to say that although the people are capable of electing every officer in the state, they are not capable of electing a proper one, and therefore they must be restricted to a native. The pro. vision was inconsistent with other positions of this proposed article of a constitution.Nobody would contend there that they should require the members of the legislature to be native born, but they would allow persons of alien birth to be elected to legislative office. where really all the power to do good or mischief in the govern. ment rested. Where no power existed but to administer the law, the occupant of office must be native born, and yet they would without re. striction, put the supreme legislative power, probably, in the hands of foreigners! Now, this was contrary to the practice of all free govern. ments. There was not perhaps a case throuah. out this Union of such qualification being incor. 130 perated in any constitution. A gentleman near him said there was in the U. S. constitution, but lie assetted that the provi.ion in the U. b const.tution was nout so broad as this, becUuse they could elect a Ioreigner, provided he came he:e before the adoption of that constitution.Besides. the difference between the two governmelts was very great and very apparent. In the state, the Governor was elected by the peo. ple, but it was nct so with the President. In that case, there were agents interposed between the people and the President to do it. The Pres. i.ltet w;as elected by * electors," an.l not by the peop!e directly. The people wer e too numerous, an.l that perhaps was a sufficient reason Ior such a;stiinction bt:tween the two governments. But in all free governments the principle prevails ol alowvini aliens who have become citizens and entitled to all the privileges, duties and immunities of citizen-, to have tle supreme power conltre.l (in them. A foreignfr miht be King of Englalnd, lbut he could Iot be Governor of the stale of New. York, and thus we were adopting more stringent principles than even monarchies. We w ere also inconiistent with ourselves; bor lwhile we submit to the people the result of the labors of' this Convention, such a restriction exhitited a distrust in the intelligence of the people, lor it was in effect saving to them, ' we cannot intrust you with the discretion to select a proper man as Governor." Now, if that principle were true, there were several members in that Convention whohad no business to be there, and thus they would be deprived of the services of several intelligentand patriotic men. Now lie had no fear but that the people would do right,andl he had no wish to keep here what was introluceJ into the constitution by the Conven. tion of' 1821, as a restriction. It was not in the constitution of 1777, and he hoped they would restore the constitution to what it was, and thus follow the example of their illustrious ancestors who first formed a constitution for thii state. Mr. PATTERSON was exceedingly gratified that the gentleman from Kings had made the motion to strike out of the first line the word ' native." He had himself prepared an amend. ment Ior that purpose, which he should have sentt up I' the gentleman from Kings had not antcipntedl him, and he now expressed his thanks to that gentleman for his motion. He did not see any necessity for any difference between native born and naturalized citizens of the state. Wh\y. if this principle had prevailed at the earlier period of the history of this country, who was there that could have held the office of gov. ernor of this state? Who were the earliest set. tiers of this country? They were all foreigners who left their native country and came here as to an asylum for the oppressed; and when foreigners come here and take the oath of alleri. ance to this country and its government and become citizens, why exclude them from holding anty office in the gift of' the people? He agreed with the gentleman from Kings (Mr. MURPHY) thut it was a distrust of the people themselves, to say by the constitution that the people should not be permitted to select such men as they believed to be competent to discharge the iAuty f,fe ee utiave govenUWent. 9He wa surprised when this report wars thrown upon their tab!e. tt age that word in tl;e second setc tion of the proposeJ amend.ueat. He said lie vas surprised, LecaLse Ite had suppo|e;l thlat the keen and penetrating eye of the cl;airlan of that committee (Mir. NOP.RIs) \v( uld l.ave discovered t;.at that wolrd was not a rolper (lne to be tlere. and that if no ctl.er rz nlten.in l.nad done so, that the genttenan fri m New York wttuld have been the first to strike it out. Tr e, it is in the present constituticn, and he was bound to suppose in charily to that colnmillee that they passed over that word wtilthtut noti( e -that the copying of the old constitutietinl pie. visions was done by the c'airman of the cem. mittee, hut it was to him very singular that thle gentleman from New York, in cop3 ing it, should not have allowed his pen to slip over tlat word, and not have written it at all. Retain that word there and what portion of that gentlen.an's constituents woull be debarred fiom ever holding the office of Governor of' the state of' New York? He knew not the number, but it was doubtless very great. He had been many years in the legislature of' the state, and he had never known a time when there wi re not amongsl the represenlatives ol the city of New-York some gentlemen who were natu alized citizens, and this he presumed was an indication that such citizens were numerous in NewYork. Why they had there a venerable gentleman from New-York, a delegate in this Conve;.. tion, who was not a na:ive born citizen, (Mr. CAMPBELL P. WHITE,) and would tey (xclude him and all such citizens that the pecple im glht think proper to elect? He had in his mi.id'e3 e many naturalized citizens lor whom he should be willing to vote for the office of Governo, and among others one from the western part of the state who had reprtsentel( old Ontario int congress, and who had resided in this country Ing. er than lie (Mr. P.) had had on existence (Mr. GREIG), and he knew of no gentleman in the whole circle of his acquaintance, for uwhm he would sooner vote, and (f whose services in congress they would have been deprived if this principle had prevailed. He icpe I tl.e amenl. ment woul. be adopted, and that the wcrd " native" would be stricken out by a unanimous vote. There were other gentlhmen in this (' n. vention who were not native Lorn. He saw Le. fore him his aged friend from.teuben (Mr. KERNAN), and tl:e gent eman from Cayug- on his right (Mr. SHAw), and where would lhey have been if this princip:e had prevailed, and been made applicable to this Conveition?They must have remained at home and left those who were fortunate enough to be na. tive born to 'he monopoly of' seats here. lie, (Mr. P.) thought our forefatheis were as (_ood men as we are. He thought his grandnflther who came from the other side of the water was as good as he was. And the election of such men he would leave to the people. He had con. fidence in the people that they would elect the best men. There was anotller amendlnent which lie desired to see made in that section.It was to strike out the words which woull require a Governor to 'e 30 years of age. 11' the people thought proper to select a young man, and a young man {totdl have got so fa above 131 everybody else at that age, he was not disposed to interpose any obstruction. He would not ask a man that the people were disposed to elect, whether he was 29 or 30 years of age. He would leave that to the people themselves. All that he would require would be that the person so elected should be a citizen of the state. He was in favor of the amendment now, because it was rot in order to move to strike out the whole section, but he doubted very much the propriety of allowing any part of it to remain. Mr PERKINS had intended before this a mendment was offered to move to strike out the section entirely. He did not see any thing in the section that it was desirable to retain even when the word" native" was stricken out. He vwould adJ in reference tothe motion of ihe gent!eman from Kings that it was unlikely that a person would be elected governor of the state who was not a native born citizen unless he had renlered some remarkable service to the state, anr in that event they shoull not desire to ex. clude such a citizen from the office. There were coming into this state annually a large number (f foreigners who brorught with them children, some ot them were infaits —who were brought up here froio their earliest years; some ol these itluihlt I)robably render as efficient service to the stiate as any citizel could render to his country, an I would it be desirable to exclude f om the tffice of governor such citizens, if the people were disposed to elect them? Would it be desirable to exclude from that office by constitutional provision any such citizens of foreign birth merely who might be possessed of extraor;linary talent? Again, the manufac. ture of such a principle into our constitution might result in an incongruity. On a ref. erenet to ihe constitution adopted by the convention of 1321 it would be found that there was no such restriction on the office of lieuten. ant governor. But the 6th section, both of the present constitution and the proposed article of tle new constitution, declared that in case of the impeachment of the governor, or his rerno val from office by death or otherwise, the powers and duties should devolve on the lieutenant governor. This was like the provision in the Uniited States constitution, by which a vice pre. sident had succeeded to the presidency of the Ujiion for it was agreed on the death of Gene. ral liarrison thnt Mr. Tyler became president to all intents and purposes. Now, if they require I a certain qualification in their governor, ian no such qualification for lieutenant gover1no1, anl a vacancy should happen, it would be matter of construction and doubt whether the lieutleaant. governor could take upon himself and discliarge the duties of governor of this state.Probably it would be construed that the express decla ration that the lieutenant governor should in such an emergency exercise all the powers an I duties of the governor, would control the previous langutage. and he miight succeed to the office of governor or to the execution of his powe s anr dut es, but certainly there would be room for controversy, doubt, and partisan strilf in re'ation to it, which it would be prudent to avoid. Now, if this section slhoul I be retained, he should leel it to be his duty to move to put he sae sae resiotions op the qiuamlications uf the lieutenant governor to revernt any iineongruity in the constitution. Mr.CORNELL, like other gent'emea, had prepared an amenIment to meet the case for which his frieid from Kings lhai sought to make provision, an. to thatgentlemaa he tendered his thanks for the step he had taken. For hilmself, at present, he had but one remark to make. It was this, that although there was but one constitutional provision similar to this, and that was in the constitution of the (J. S., he apprer n-tel there was a strong reason weighing on the nim Is of the Convention by which that instrument was framed for the adoption of such a provision, that could have no application to the election of the Governor of this state. It was that the Pre-i. dent of the U. S., in the discharge of his official duties, was brought in contact with foreign gov. ernments, among which might be one of which the President might have been a native born cit. izen. It might therefore have beeni supp)sed that some undue influence might reach himt in negotiating with such powers that would nut reach him in treating with other governtmets. B:t in the case of a Governor of this state, that principle could not apply, inasmuch as the government of this state has no legal existence in reference to foreign governments. For that reason-and it was a very weighty reaslon-the provision in the constitution of the U. S. cuuld have no authority or weight here. Mr. RHOADES was is favor of the p oposi. tion to strike out, for the reasons which haI been aiven both by the gentleman from! Kings and Chautauque,and for some others. When our forefathers entered into the struggle for lihei ty, they invited the friends uf liberty from all parts of the world to join them. That invitation was accepted by many friends of liberty in the old world. It was accepted and acted upon by em. igrants-by those who were not native born citizens. Since that period the Congress of the United States had shown by the facilities they had granted to persons emigrating from foreiga countries to become naturalized citizen-, that they meant the invitation to be still held out to the oppressed in all parts of the world. And this state, by the provisions which ha. been made, and the rules which had been relaxed, in relation to the rights and privileges of tho.e who were not citizens, in regard to holding real estale, had intimated clearly that we were willing to assure them an asylum here-that we desire to have them all as part an] parcel of one people. Now whatever any man miiight think of the danger of foreign immigration, u:ne ifct was settled - it was a "fixed faet" - that this-ountry is destined to havea stilllarger lortion of immigrants than it has at present. Iuimigration is going on year alter year; ansl his de. sire was that when people came f6onr foreign countries, with the view to settle umonc us and to become citizens of the United 8tates in reality, that there should be nothing left to indicate to.them that they were to be r(gar.rl el as a different class from the native born citizens. lie wished to see all distinctions abolish. el. He wished them to forget all they euild that they had owed any allegiance to aliy government but this; he wantel them to eIel that they were ~Auarioaacitizeas, as1a if tkere was 133 any danger to be apprehended, as he believcu broad reason that these principles of restriction there was not, fiom loreign immigration, it was were wion-, tbr they were restrictions *n the the danger that was to be apprehended from the popular right to delegate power to, or to elect adoption on our part of some rules, cr statutes, whom it pleased. or party organization that might drive them to- The question was then taken an] the amen:l. gether into clanship. Under such organizations ment wcs adopted, only two voices being heard they were liable to be misled, and the sooner in the negative. they could be brought to feel themselves to be Mr. PATTERSON moved further to amend American citizens the better. He had seen or. by striking out the words which fixed the eligiganizations in this state of military companies, bility at 30 years of age. bor instance, which he regretted to see. There Mr. RUSSELL desired to offer an entire subwere organized German military corps and Irish stitute for the section, in the form of an affirm. companies and others of a distinctive character. ative proposition, that any person who is a citiHe hoped to see them all sunk into simple A- zen of the U. S. and a qualified elector, shall be merican citiztns; and the sooner we got rid ol eligible to the office. every thing in our constitution and laws that Mr. SHEPARD also desired to strike out the woult tend to perpetuate national distinctions. section. the sooner would the naturalized citizen forget The CHAIR replied that such a motion could that he had come among strangers. not now be made. Mr. BASCOM was obliged to the gentleman Mr. PATTERSON'S amendment was tlcn awho had ofiere.l this amenlment, and to those greed to. who had aJvocated it. He should vote for it. The committee then rose and reported probut he 'loped by so doing he should not be re- gress, and obtaine.l leave to sit again; gardel as a convert to all the reasons which had Anl the Convention adjourned to 11 o'clock been assigned for it. He approved it for the to-morrowmorning. SATURDAY, JUNE 27. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. FISHER. contained correct principles. Hc would not say The PRESIDENT laid before the Con the Cn hat a provision should be made in the conltiiu. tion a memorial asking that causes before jus- tion precisely in the terms he ha: used; his obtices of the peace may be decided by jury-Re- ject was such a provision in substance. That lerred to the jullciary committee. there was something wrong about the taxing of Also, a report from the clerk of the sixth cir- real estate an:! personal property, lie believed euit, furnishing the number of causes on the every gentleman would admit. One object lie calendar, &c., in answer to a resolution of the had in view was to correct a system by which a Convention-Referred to the judiciary commit- large amount of property was subject to doutle tee taxation; another was to reach a large porliun Also, a report from the clerk of the fourth cir. of personal property which every bod) knew cuit, in answer to a resolution requiring returns had not been taxed at all. He had said, an I it of the value of the real estate of ifatnts sold, was not denie:l, that there wus in the existing moneys invested, &c.-Referred to the judiciary system something wrong; but lie might Le ancommittee. swered that the remedy should be left to the leDOUBLE TAXATION. gislature. But looking at the past, we might Mr. STRONG called up his resolution which torm some judgment as to what might be exSwas laid on the table a lew days since by con pected lor the future. We should obtain no sent —as follows:- remedy unless some provision like this were enRe-olved, That th,'re be in the Constitution an arti- grafted on the constitution. dle co(liLtillt in ul)-t:ince itie fol)lwinig provis ons: Mr. SHEPARD moved tbe reference of the ''h:t a.ll.bl.ods, mortg;age., judgineiits iad all other resolution to the fourteenth standing committee. evvie h of, dh o t whl cil are iieti oil real eS;ate, tih; II Mr. RHOADES objected to the firm ol the unot be laxed rs ier.sonal property; tid that all ic;il e-ta;tf.-iall bth taxed to the o.vner or occipa;nt t its resolution-amrounting as it did, to an affirmatIr va tie; auid that any I)erson or persons owning or tive expression of opinion. lildhig,niy lond, morllgag, judgp.ent or any otier Mr. SHEPARD thought that immaterial, as videnceo, indeitness which are liens oi retl eslate, tle liable to tbe tersn orpersons '.o hi the the Convention would express no ipinlion by siniCe.hepll have ileti tax (d for l.is, her, or their pur- sending it to a committee. tiin ofu Faid lax, inl prolortion to ihe inerest he, she or Mr. RHOADES said he should have no obtht~y lnmt have, hold or own in said re il estate. jection to the resolution if it were not in fact Mr. KENNEDY suggested to the mover the one of instruction. propriety of changing the form of the resolution, Mr. MARVIN said the gentleman from Oncn. so as to make it one of enquiry merely. dagn was right. The resolution called for a pIos. Mr. STRONG did not iprefer that course. If itive exprersion that there should be in the Conthere were in his resolution any erroneous prin. stitut!on an article in substance like that embo. ciple, lie should be willing to have it pointed died in it. The mover himsnelf did not u.ler it out; so lar as the details were concerned he was wvith tlie view of sendiig it to a cominittee to not much wedded to them. H'e had preparel it enquire into the expediency of such a provision, on the reflection of a few moments, and thoigh but it was in such a shape as to be implerative, thbereinigbt be an error ia form, helbelieved it if adopted. and if we atlempteJ,o incurperate 133 provisions like this into a constitution, we should $5,000 on a farm assessel at only $2,000. In have a constitution more voluminious that any that case, it was said the man who held t ic ever ytt tmde, an I we shoulJ be require.l to mortgage would pay the whole tax on the land: remaini here a much longer period than any of That woull be so under his proposititn; hut us dreamt of. He submitted that the legislature how would it he tunler the presentsystem? The hat alwanys had power over this whole subject man who hell the mortgage, unless Ie coveredl of' taxation, an: that it must have that power. up his lien, would have to pay taxes on $3,000 lBut if we attempte I to go into such details we besiles-whereas, unjer his system. t.iis $3,0() should involve ourse:ves in difficulty. He con- would pay nothiing. Was there any Illhg in currel with the mover (f' the resolution, and for that operating against the mor gage holJef?tie pui pose of saying so he had risen, that there And on the other hand, the interest of the occu. was an evil in the mole of assessing the bur. pant would be to bring into the assessment these deris (f taxation. mortgages that now escaped taxation in it great The PRESIDENT interposed:-the merits degree. Mr. S. had no ibjectior to haviing is were not debateable unler the motion of reler- resolution refelrred; but he did object to its betnee. ing laid on the table to sleep tlhere. An;l there Mr. SIIEPARD then withdrew his motion to was nothing in the mere act of referring it that reler, and committed the Convention to it-any more than Mr MARVIN continued:-The occupant3 of there would be in referring a petition or mlenmo. land were taxed as the owners, while in point of rial. If the Convention passed a direct vote on fact, the properly might all be in the land owner, the resolution, that would be adopting the prin. being hell on contracts. There were difficu'ties ciple. But le did not ask that. lie only ilsirequiring perhaps attention-but lie apprehen. red a reference of it-and lie now move.l to re. ded that in framing a constitution we were not fer it to comtmittee numler two, which hal alto a'tempt to lay down a system of taxation. ready the subject of taxation belore them. On looking over this resolution, it would be Mr. RHOADES had no objection to a refer. seen, that it seemed to suppose that the subject ence; hut as he asked the privileae of selecting was before us asa legislature. It took the posi. his own committee, Mr. R. insisted that lie tion that bonds and mortgages should not be tax- should put his resolution in the shape in which cl, but that the land on which they were an in- all resolutions of enquiry had been put. But he cumbrance should he, and that the occupant had a word to say on the merits. should deduct a proportionate share fiom the Mr. STRONG interposed-saying that that personi who ihal a lien on it by jurrment, mort. would not be in order. gage. or otherwise. HIow woull this operate? The PRESIDENT soruled-the questicn be. li re was a judgment of $1000. It might be ing one of reference. a lien on half a (lozf n farms, but the owner ol Mr. RHOADES said the gentleman from Mon. lie judgment was worth $1000, fir the judg. roe had gone into the merits, and then made a m'nt was worth $10CO to him. When the occu. motion which precluded areply. M I. wr. ould pant of one of these hrmns was taxed, was lie to not insist on goting into the merits. But lie call upon the holJer of the lien to refund in part; would move to make it a resolution of enquiry. anl w:: s his neighbor also to do the same? These The PRESIDENT remarked that that was in were difficulties which should sutislty the gentle- effect the motion now pending-to rftti'. man frm Monroe that this matter should be left Ms. CROOKER thought there was an unuto 'egislation. There were other difficulties also sual de'ree ot sensitiveness as to the form of in the way, twslch he would not advert to now, the resolution. No matter what the ormn of it further lhan to say, that on franaing a constitl:. was, a reference committed nobody to inly part tion we were not to interfere with vested rights, of it And it was no more than courtesy to the and contracts. If we should incorporate such a mover of a resolution to allow hinm to have it in prvision into it, he Inew not to what it might the shape he desired-for reference. Mr. C., not lead. however, thought a reference to commrnittee num. Mr. STRONG replied that it seemed to be her fifteen would be the mostappropriate. Still, conceded that there was something wrong in our if the mover was tenacious of number two. he system of taxation. But the objection was that had no objection. wve had nothing to do with it, and thatit belong. Mr. TOWNSENDdiffered with the gentleman e.d to l:e legislature. Now, he took another from Chautauque (M'. MARVIN) inthe idea liat view,of tihe sublject. Here was a wrong that this was a subject which peculiarly belornge to ha I existed as long as lie could remember-and legislation. He thought the gentlemiin fromn the legislature with 1ill lpower to remedy it, ihad Monroe was entitled to the thatks of' the Con. n.t dlle it, andl never would This was a day velltion for bringing this matter directly ulp for of refotlri. The people lhad sent us here to get consideration, in this form. No doubt, the obthe reforms which they could not get through ject was to give more importance to the subject the legislature. Hence it was that this or some than would be given to it by a mere resolution similar princip!e should he in the constitution, of enquiry. And Mr. T. was in hiopes that it Ite had heard the difficulty suggested before would have drawn out the opinions ol'gentlemen tint you coull not apportion the tax where a on the subject of taxation. juJgment covered several pieces of property- The PRESIDENT remindled the gentleman but it was a very easy matter to calculate how that the merits of the resolution were not de. much shouill be refunded to the occupant or bateable owner of each farm. Any body could cypher Mr. TOWNSEND said he would then move that out. But another case-the opposite, to amend the resolution, so as to bring himsell -had been brougtt up-the case of a mortgage-p t wvithin de ule eforde ' 134 Mr. KENNEDY inquired if that would super. and fees in courts of law," which section provi. sede the motion to refer? ded that liens by ju lgment or decree docketted Mr. TOWNSEND had but a remark or two after the act took effect, shoulHl cease alter ihe to offer. He went on to say that a gentleman expiration of five years. Here was a section who had held the office of canal commissioner, repealed which had no reference to costs and and more recently that of ward commissioner in lees, &c., and yet, at the same session two acts the c.ty of New- York, an:l in this capacity had pa-sed which had direct refere ce to the act con. hanl before him more immeeiately the subject of cerning costs and fees, and another expre-sly taxatit n, had deliberately avowed, after full re. regulating liens *;n real estate. flection anl an enlarged view *,f the subject, Mr. RICHMOND was glad his colleague liad that in his judgment the public interest would introduced this subject. It remiled him of' be promotel essentially by levying taxes on real sonie hills that had passed thie legrislature whilst estate alone. He alluded to Mr. Ruggles. Anl he was a member, which showed the importance a strong illustration of' the truth of the position of some regulation of1 tis matter, that the peowould be found by a referencn to a single fact pie might know what the legislature were ablut, connected with taxation in the city of New.York. and might remonstrate beobre it was too late. 'Ihe PRESIDENT interposed, saying that the A bill was introduced in '41, professing in its motion to refer taking precedence of the motion title to be a ' legal reforlm" bill, but il realily to amenl, the latter was not debateab!e. it increased the lees of legal gentlemen nbout 25 Mr. TOWNSEND,said he would not occupy per cent. The public were le.l to b-lieve that it five minutes longer. Ile was going to say, that reduced the ees of lawyers-andl he and to work by a reference to statistics which were within himself up to a strong point of courage t(- vote the reach,of every boly, it would be found that angainst a bill with such a title. He however lid the city of New.Yi)rk paid about ene.half the vote against it, alter in vain trying to gel the halt' mill tax. This must arise from an unjust title changed. lie hoped the subject would be mo le of assessnlent. But to return to an illus. referred. tration drawn Irom his own city. There, the Mr. STRONG also favored the enquiry. He whole amount of property returnel for taxation, reco lected an instance of this kind ol' legislalion. was about $240,000,(100. Of that, about $170,- A bill was brought into the house to compel the 000,000 was real estate, some $40,000(000 was Utica and Schenecta.dy rail road to carry Ireiglit. bank and insurance stock, leaving about $30,- At the same tme those who were interested in 000,000 only to represent the personal property this road were bere about our lobby and very of the city. 'his act illustrate;! the importance anxious that the bill sloull pass-urging that of this subject, and he had said all he intended tlouglh it was a hardship on thein, it was n{cc s. in calling attention to it. He differed with g"n. sary to pass such a law for the benelfit of the t'emen as to this being altogether a matter for people of this state. But there was a difficulty leg slation. If we could make such constitu. about this that gentlemen did not boresee. They tional provision on thi- as on many other sub. sometimes went on and specified sonie things in jects, that would exempt us from legislation in the title of a bill that were correct, and then regard to them, we should have (one a great added " and for other purposes." IHow would goo.l. Whether this could be effected or not, the gentleman get over that? [A lauoh.] was yet to be aeterminel. HIe hoped the reler. Mr. NICOLL was decidedly in favor of the ncce would be made to number two, as desired resolution, but on grounds different froni tlhse by the mover. urged by the mover. Every lawyer lmust feel The resolution was so referred. the importance of it; for to the pi olession there Mr. W. TAYLOR asked a discharge from could be no greater annoyance than to find them. some returns from the Register in Chancery, re. selves unexpectedly, as the phrase was, floored, felrred by m:stake to his committee. Agreed to. in court by one of'these incongruous statutes - TITIES OF I.l.iS. He recollected a case of this kind. By thelaws Mr. TAGGART oflered the follow1ing: — of this state. it was supposed to be impossible tor a husband to applly lor a dirvorce on the itesotve, Th-i:at tle Fectnd standing committee con. ground of cruel treatment by the wile. Oil a stier and repolrt (in ihe expleddeii(v of incotporating a plovisimo ii t(he coistiution, providing that every law bill being filed by a husband on that grcund, it piss-ed by the legislature shall in its details, be iu ac- was declared to be a case not within the pur. voidauce wilh its title. view of any law\; but the counsel for the appli. Mr. TAGGART aisked indulgence whilst he cant referred at once to a law, the title of wvliich adverted to one or two cases in explanation of purl)orted that it was a law changing the terms the kind of legislation intended to be reached by of one of the local courts, but in which was a this resolution. He had before him "an act con. section authorizing this proceeding on the pai t *cf ceining passengers in vesse's arriving at the the husband. It would be a tgreat conv(eit(nce liot of New York." At tlhe close of one of the to the prolession, not to be obliged to hunt thro' sections of this act he found a clause authorizing local statutes Ior oeneeral principles. the corporation of New York to regulate the Mr. W. TAYLOR had no objection to this en. rates of wharlage to be charged on vessels dis. quiry at all. But it we were going on to adluot a chairging at or near any of the piers, slips, &c. constitution covering not only all the principles He had also before hima another act, passed in of legislation, but the manner of it, it would '44, purporting to be, by its title, " an act to a. not be easy to say when we should get through. mend certain portions of the Revised Statutes. But to glance at the case stated Ity the girtle. in relation to brintingn appeals and writs of er. man fiomn Genesee (Mr. RIctlaoND) —the (ose ror.~ T 3h*3d -si of i thta *ct tepealed the of the bill to reduce the fees of lawyers. TI;c 31st section of the act ofi~t S'WWti'omsei. ' hea found *&ia4rcaed tLhes ia somn "in' 135 stances. Would he have bad the bill entitled able, on re.as.embling, tolkeep nearly the whole an act to re luce and increase the lees of law. bo ly here during tie reonainjer of the session. yer-!?-lbr Mr. T. prsumed that the bill dld He hopel the question would be sette I to-dny, both. so far as to determine that there would be a Mr. RICHMOND: It was all increase-no recess, thatall might be apprised of the lact. and decrease. make their arrangements accordingly. Mr. W. TAYLOR: That was a matter of o. Mr. BASCOM said, however much his per. pinion perhaps. Some might suppose there was sonal convenience might be subserved by this re. a reduction; but practically it iight increase cess, he must vote aainst it. As yet, we had them-and it so, under such a provision as this, accomplished so little in reality-an I to the corn. the law wt,lAkl be unconstitutional. This then munity it no doubt appeared less than it really ni-ht be going further than the mover intended. was-that he dared not undertake to decide that Mlr. TAGGART'S resolution was adopted. it was proper to separate, until we gave some A Eevidence that some substantial reforms were to A ECESS.be effected by this body. One gool thling might Wr. WARD here moved that all intervening result lrom a recess; anl tVhat was thi: it we orders be laid on the table, for the purpose of went home and heard the complaints ol our conresumin in committee the unfinished business. stituents about our dilatory proceelings, we Mrt. RUSSELL aske;l the gentleman to waive might learn the great importance of grappling': that motion. Hle desired to offer a resolution in earnest with our business. He began to get lor a recess of ten days in the month of July- letters of complaint already. He would read aun Mr. WARD: We can settle that on Monday. extract from one of them to show: what the p oWe've wasted an hour now on similar matters- pie at home had begun to think of our doings. quite enough for one day. It was in the form of a mathematical calculation, Mr. RUSSELL: Then I must resist the mo- which any gentleman could solve easily. Mr.. tion to go into committee. B. read: 'If it takes a month to get ready to, Mr. WARD: I should be very happy to ac. do business, how long will it take to do it?? — conmolate the gentleman; but if that matter is He insisted that we ought to grapple with the taken up, there will be no time left. business before us, and make some progress Mr. RUSSELL insisted, as a matter of order, therein, before we asked of our constituentsthat the motion to o into committee was irie- leave to sit again. galar unless the motion was to lay the pending Mr MANN was opposed to an adjournment. order on the table. for any considerable time, but he was williiin. 'The PRESIDENT: That is part of the mo. that gent!emen should adjourn over the National' tion. Anniversary, as some desired. He believed the Mr. RUSSELL: Then I hope it will be voted ten days's adjournment would be doing injusticedown. to many who lived at so great a distance that Mr. WARD would not persist in his motion,un. they could scarcely get home and back in thati der the circumstances. time; while others could go home in a few Mr. RUSSELL then offered a resolution in hours. For the former must either submit to' bla:ik; providing lor a recess of ten days, in the that inconvenience or remain here, while others iiionth of' July-leaving the time to be fixed by were passing their time at home. He moved tothe ioly. lie thought it important to know strike out "Thursday" and insert " Friday,' whethler we were to iiave this recess or not, and strike out " ten" days and insert;' t1Ue." some little time in advance. It was known to Mr. A. W. YOUNG thought ihis a subjectf all that a large proportion of us were disap- upon which gentlemen residing in more distant' pointe;l as to the probable time through which parts of the state should be heard. He haJ t:ie session would cxtonl. Most of us supposed come here with the idea that it would requireit woultd be two month;, and had arranged our thiee months to do the business of the Conven — business at home accordingly. He was now sat. tion; ani he had ma:.e arrangements according. isfied that three or four months woull he requir- ly. He thought members would not be justiliel e I before an entire constitution could be framed in going home and attenling to their: private bu. -lor it was perfectly evi ent now that we were siness at the expense of the state; and before to forlm an entire new instrument, instead of coming to a conclusion upon this subject, other presentlin, a few detacliel amenmlients,as he sup. questions ought to be determined. One of these posed when he left home. I' we had this recess questions was that of constructive mileage He lixe.l some days ahead, that those who were had heard members say that if the Convention cimrnpelled to go home to arrange their business should adjourn, they would be entlied to mileage miiglit avail themselves of' that opportunity, we in going home and retlrning; but if' a reces. could re-assemble after ten or twelve days ab. should be taken, they would be entitled to the sceace, anl do what we had to do here in a bet. usual per diem compensation. lie did not wish teLr imantner ani conclude our labors earlier than to loose the fortnight which he should it' the we shouldt witthout, lor the reason that a major. Convention adjourned for so long a time, besi!eal ity of' us would be compelled to go home, by being subjected either to the expense of remain. our private alfairs, between this time and Sep. ing here, or to thatof going home. There were tembec —leaving perhaps through a great part of several questions to be taken into consideration t:ie session not more than two thirds of' all the in determining the action of the Convention on members here, and miaking it necessary in many this subject. cases to review questions taken in their absence Mr. PATTERSON did not think it right or and to re-open the debate again. Whereas, if' proper that we should take a recess for two or all left at the same time, probably, we should be three weeks. O the qlestioa of pay, het 136 expressed the opinion that we shoull not be entitled to it, nn!ess we were at work for the people. tie, however, thought an adjournnent fur one day over the 4th of July, woul l be pro per; it might be well to adjourn over from Fri. day to Monday; btt beyond that he would not go. Mr. LOOMIS thought the recess should not be taken. It gentlemen must necessarily go home, let them obtain leave of absence for that purp'se f onm the convent on. Mr. PERKINS thought it would not be well received by the people, if we should adjourn for ten daysr a oraortnight. We had been talking about reductions of salaries, and extensive re. trenchinents, but i' we were to set the example of' adjourning, and put the state to an expense of from 5,000 to $10,000 for travelling Iees, the people would have reason to complain, and to charge us with inconsistency. Besides, if ne. cessity called any member lome-his business, or sickness in his fanmily-he had only to ask leave ol absence to obta;n it. Mr. RUGGLES concurred with gentlemen who hal precedei him, thatwe ought not to take this recess; and, among other reasons, betause the re;ullt of our labors was to lie siti m.tted t the people in November If the Corventior. was to sit four months, we should he brcught to tihe first of October, leaving but a single month for the publication and distribution of the new con. stitutinn through the state and for the people to rellect.pitun what we should have done. We shoull' un:ler any circumstances, probably remain in session a considerable length of timethree months certainly —possibly four months If then we use I our beAt diligence in accomplish. ing the work befilre us, the people would have a very short time to examine and reflect on what we should have done-and to give an intelligent vote on the amendments that might be proposed. He should therefore be opposed to a recess, un. less it was Ior one or at most, two days, over the 4th of' July. Mr. SIMMONS doubted if the Convention had t'-e power to aJjourn as had been proposeds.'Tle idea of a Convention called tcgether in ccnlormnity with law, having a power inconsistent with that law, was futile. A Convention that should set up any power inconsistent with the spirit anl meaniing of' the law by which it was callel into existence-a law made by an:l with the consent of the existing government-would be a revolutionary Convention and not a constituttonal one We could as well aljourn over until next December, or next summer, as take a recess ofa fortnight or three weeks. Mr. CHA'I FIELD had no objection to a short ad'ournment fiom Friday to Monday or even TuesJay, in honor of t!re national annivce sarybut beyond that he was unwilling to go. Mr. BURR concurred in the opinions expressed by the gentlemen from Otsego, Chautauque and Dutlchess, that we ought not to take so long a recess as two or three w eeks, but remain here an. attend to business, with the exception of the 4th July. Mr STRONG spoke briefly on the subject of the adjournment, to which lie was opposed, and on the question of payment of per diem and tra. velling fees during such recess —which he thought we should not be entitled to. Mr. RUSSELL said he introluce:l the resoln'ion at the request of many gentlemen vwlto wxxere not usually talking men, alid lie did it with the impression that if members travelled 100, 2(0 or 300 miles to the-r homes and hack, that they would be entitled to their travelling lees and their per diem compensation. lie lliought it proper that a few days should be gven to us in the lient of the summer, to visit our homes and attend to our business. Nor did he believe that the people of his county would care a copper for the compensation, if we in the en l presented to them a constitution worthy of' their acceptan ce and of ourselves. His own impression was, that the adjournment should commence about the 10th or 17th July, or so late as to enable us to receive all the reports Irom the conimiitttes, to have them printed and belore the cpeople.Gentlemen might then take them home with them, and during the recess examine and it fleet upon them, and confer with their constituents irr relation to them, an i hear their suggestions (;o any modifications they might deem necessary. By such a crurse ten days would be well spent. Mr. MANN accepted the amendment to adjourn from Friday the 3d to the succeeding Tuesday. Mr. RUSSELL saidl he was opposed to nny adjournment, if' it was to be merely fur a frelich on the 4th of July. After a few words from Mr. J. J. TAYLOR, and Mr. MORRIS, Mr. RUSSELL withdrew his resolution, and the matter dropped. THE GOVERNKOR AND LIEUT. GOVERNOR. The convention in committee of the whole, Mr. CHATFIELD in the chair, resumed the consideration of the article reported by commit. tee number five-the second section being still under consideration for amendment-as lollows: ~ 2. No person except a (rtnlivel ciliz 'n of the United States,.haell Ih elie eli to tle o ffice of Govelinr; air shitll ntiy person be elgible to th:tt olhee, \lho shall not h;lve lattltiai d hf age of ihitty years, and hav-J I c t five years a r s denti wit hin ti' s 'ttle; Iiless he ttlrll have be.n absenti (riring thiot rime on public busilass of the UniteJd tates, or of this State. [The words included in brackets were struck out yesterday.] Mr. PAT'TERSON, on behalf of Mr. DANA, (now absent) moved to insert after the words "five years," the words "next preceding the election " Mr. WORDEN: —That is the meaning now. Mr. PENNI MAN here desired, as one of the committee number five, to say a word in expla. nation of the course of that committee —par. ticularly in regard to the word native. lieask. ed if that would be in order now? The CHAIR replied that after this amendment had been disposel of, the gentleman could move a reconsideration. Mr. WARD suggested that when tie Article was reported to the convention, it would be in order to move to restore the words struck out, or to renew any amendment, and have the a es and noes on it. Mr. PENNIMAN wanted to go into a full review of the action of committee nurrber fiveso far as it had been called in question here. 137 The question was here talen on the amend. Congress. It usually required now three years ment moved by Mr. PATTERSON, and it was residence for ani a!ien to become na;uralizc l. In nciative.l. some instances five-alwSays t'ree. Sui:p-:se - Mr. RUSSELL now movel to strike out the Conress, who alone were entitled to make u' - entire section, and insert as lollows:- for:m laws of natura!ization. should reduce it to t Any ciizen or t' c tnicld St;atcs, qualified to vote three days. And he should not he half so much at Ilhe geullerl elt clim a;t which hle m1y he clected, surprisel at that as he ha I been at somne;f' thieir sh itt be eiigihle t tihe office o( Govern:r. acts. TLen our next Governor would probably Mr. R. said this was designed tosupersede the he Mr. O'Connell-though it would be necessary section by an affirmative proposition that any for him to come here. An il'Conress, in their qua.ilied elector should be eligible-leaving all horse race speed to shovw their love for lircigan other qualifications ti, the judgment of our corn. ers, should go further and naturalize persons mon constituents. He would not strike out the before they became even resilents, and allow section and insert nothing, as had been suggest. allow all foreigners to vote here by proxy, with. e l-fior that would leave it so that a female or out coming over, declarin: them to be citizens n minor miniht be eligible an;l it was customary of the U. S. cx gratia, w e mighl have an,ex.gra. in all constilutions, to prescribe some foirm of tia Governor who never saw the country.eligibility. But he would have it in the simplest Then we should he in the same condition that Iorml possible-that of any citizen of the United we were before '77. They appointedl hem in Stites who is a qualilied elector at the time of England now, and sent them over fo Canala. his election. Mr. S., was willing to throw off the word na. Mr. JONES surgested that a person might be tive. But there was great propriety, as our eli ible but notelectel. The phraseology of the own citizens were subjected to a certain quarantamenlmnent should be altered. tine, belore they could be made Governor,Mr. RUSSELL sail lie would vary his sub- and certainly adopted citizens coull not complain stitute so that it would read- that they should be subjected to the same E very qisrlifird elector shall bec:igibc totheoffice rule. He would not have a person, three dlnys of (vt-uor ",. aftter he came into the American world, wh-etl:er Mr. JORDAN inquired whether the gentle. by birth orimportation-entitled to becouseGovman intended to make colored people, who were ernor There shoull be a little time to become wtorth $250, and therefore now qualified voters, acquainted with our institutions-a short plrio.l, eligible to the office of Governor? it' the Convention should ttink proper-but a Mr. RUSSELL:-If the people so choose. probation equally applicable to all-threcycars Every person who is an elector should have the Imight ilo. But he would not have it so that fullest privilege of eligibility. this period shoul:l be liable to change from the Mr. JORDAN:-I understand the gentleman. mere caprice of Congress, in regard to naturaliThat is all I d(esired. zation. We at first began with fiiteen years-, Mir. HARRISON hoped the committee would then it was reduced to one-and then it wasca.-. bestow a little more consideration on this sub- ried back to three or five. He knew that t:e ject before they passed upon it. He was sur- matter was the sporu of party in violent par;y prisel yesterdl;y, and the people of this State, times, and we might possibly have violent parhe thought, woul.l be surprised, at the summary ty times again. Hence he would have some remanner in which this second section was treated striction in the conslitu';on as to residence and then. The action of the conmmittee w\as in con- as to age, bearing equally upon all-and not li. flict with the congreatet wisdom of the people able to luctuation with the fluctuations of nmof thrie.lfourths of the States of this Union. tional legislation. It appeared to hiili that tlhrThey hadl deemed it necessary not only to pro- ly years was not too many. There was a similar vide that native citizens alone shou;d be eligible, i limitation in the U. S. constitution. And why not but that ane also should be taken into conside. take care to strengthen state rights in this rtc ration. The inquiry made by the gentleman j spect-instead of' removing safetguards which from Columbia (Mr. JORDAN) was very perti- were necessary to prevent the states from be. nent; and if we passei upon this section in the coming mere joint stock corporaticns under he hlIsty and inconsiderate manner in whic:i we general government, rather than independent were about to pass upon it, he presumed that sovereignties. We should not have a raw boy our action would be visited with severe censure for governor. Some of the states had had them. onthe part of our constituetts. He beggedgen. Micligan, he believed, had one, and the last tlemen, therefore, to bestow a little consilera- Mr. S. heard of him, he gave strong indications tion on a proposition so uncalled for. He hoped of his age. The great state of New York-the also that we woull consi.ler that we had no pattern state of the Union-should at least recharge from our constituents to act on this sub- quire its governor to be 30 years of age, and to ject. No complaint had reached him that there have resided in the state three years preceding wan any dissatislaction as to the present qualifi- his being voted for. And such a provision might cations for Governor. These considerations anl be so firamel as to throw no reproach upon aothers which he would offer at a more suitable dopted citizens, but on a principle of perfect time, he hoped would induce the eommittee to equality. A friend had sent h timn anmenlnlent, hesitate which, if in order he would offer-as follows:Mr. SlMMIONS doubted whether the gentle. ded in the man from St. Lawrence, hal carried out in his state five yrars next precetdiig the election at hiieh ovn mind the full bearing and extent of his pro. he may be oted for, shall be e.igiblt to the office of position. It left the qualifications for Governor Governor and of electors, in one respect, to the action of Mr. HARRISON moved to amend the amend 138 ment, so as to make the age of 30 years a qualificn tion. The CHAIR rulel the amenlment out of order. Mr. SHAVER shoulJ vote against that. He di:l not concur with the gentleman from Richminl (Mr. HARRISON.) as to the construction %which the people would put upon this substitute of the genlleman from St. Lawrence. He did inrt believe the peop'e wou.l find fault with us for entrustinig them with the selection of their canJi ate for governor. He did notbe'ieve they would i ebule tlhis Convention for entertaining the opinion that they were capable of selecting a can;l date of their own lor lhat office. As to the cont anency alluded to by the gentleian from E-sex (Mrr..IMaMoNS) — lr. S- Lad only to say that when the time came when thle people were willing to sen.l across the water for a governor, it would be of very littfe importance to him whether that man were Daniel O'Connell, or Louis Phillippe, or Queen Victoria. lie believed that n,~ sucit state of' things was likely to arrive-a nd for one, lie should sustain the substitute of the gentleman fro-; St. Lawrence. Mr. WORDEN hoped that in the outset, in fra-ming a constitution, we should have some it gari to the element that constituted a democrat. ic or republican form of government-aind en. deavor, if' possilble, to fliame it on the principl2 tlat should govern in the construction of such institutions. It would be concedlel that tile popu!ar will was the true source and fountain of power in thisgovernmenta-nd in his judgment, that government was best constitute I where the popular will was left free to act, with as few re. stinints as coulJ possibly be thrown around it. Every attempt to throw obstructions in the way of the free and full exercise of the popular will, served only to make an artificial machine that would not and could not work benelicially for the public interest. Now, it was conceded on all hands, thrt the people of thii state were quite competent to elect their governor. Nobo. dy proposed to restrict them in the exercise of that right. Yet whils: gentlemen seemed to concede that, they conceded it with the qualifi. catio., that though they were conmpetentto elect s governor, they were not competent to select the indiviJua!, and that i' this whole subject was le.'t open to their ~agency, they might fall into some great anti egregious error. Mr. W. could subscribe to no such doctrine. He believ. el if the people were competent to vote for governor. they Aere competent to select the man. Suppose, as the gentleman from Essex suggest. e l.the;eople should be inclined to select Daniel O'Connell for Goverrtor? Mr. W. did not see why gentlemen need to place obstacles in the way of the exercise of that determination. If they saw fit thus to strike at the foundation of their own government and overturn it, that could not be prevented by any provisions in the constitution. Mr. W. did not think any such contingency was likely to arise. He believed the people woulJ exercise a sound discretion in the selection of a person to act as governor-and if he were a citizen of the state, and a competent elector, that was about as much as he would require. For as he had said in the out-et, this at. tempt to curb and restrain aid limit the action of the public woull, only operate to derange the whole struclure nn:l machinery of government. Mr. NICHIOLAS thought there was a ru!e In practical life which it would be discreet in us to observe; anl that was, to avCi I unn,cessary changes. We had now a qunlificalion of a five years' residence. IHe had new\ r I;eirdl any objection to that provision. It had worke I well; and this being so, lie could see no reason for making a change. Iliscolleague had al;uded to the delerence due to the popular will. iMr. N. made in all cases a distinction between a sounl, healthful, deliberate public sentiml:ent —cr, to use his colleague's phrase, popular will-nnl popular clamor. I-e would be second to no mnn on earth in bowing on all occasions to the formnitr; and lie was as free to say,that on all occasionis ihe was determined not to be le. by the ltter. The public sentiment of the state, w'*;en deliberan:ty formed on any subject, he considere, as irni perative with him, as placing himl undlr ol. ligations to defer to it implicitly, here anl on all occasions. But lie had never hearl any conplaint as to this qualification of' e-,idence. Antl when gentlemen tallkel to us about the obligations resting on me::. lers of a republican government, lie must claim the *ight to consiider himself a reluublican of the old democratic republican school of' '9, as I.e honestly believed himsell to be. in maintaining a due respect for the rights of the state. He had no idea of a mere stranger comiin here-he care not whether fiom England, Irelatnd, or Scotland —,r even from a borderiniz state, and being eligi;le to the Chief Executive office of this stale-at any rate not until he had been here long ernlugh to make himself acquainie.l with the peculiarity of our goveinment, with the institutions andl wants of the state, the defects in our sytem, if any, the requirements of' our laws, and wilh the various local interests of the state. This kind of knowledge was indispensably necessary to qualify a man for a useful andl efficient discharge of Executive duty. And Mr. N. thought it became every man who was a replblican in sentiment, thus to respect the right of state of which.e was a citizen. lie could see no good reason for making a charge here. The standing charge againstall republican institutions was instability and love of change. And it did ap-. pear to him that where any part of o',e system had worked well, for a long series of yea., the people snbjected to no inconvenience by it-tle safe course was not to tamper with it. In all these cases, the only sale course was to avoil change. iHe was ieady an v willing to unite in making all necessary changes; wherever evils ex;sted, I e woull remove theme. But he never would sub. stitute mere experiment for experience, nor undertake to improve on what hind stood the test of time, for the inere sake of experiment. ing; and we had too many anl too important interests in charge, to venture on such a path. We were now embarking on this work. This uns the incipient step in it. And lie tliought the admonition could not be to olien inculcated, that we should in all cases avoid unnecessary changes-avoid mere experiments-and aJ here to the experience of the pat. He repeated, however, that a respect for the rights o' the state, its dignity and character, if no other con 139 siderations, would induce him to retain this requirement as to residence. Hle would require eve. ry candilate for governor to have been a resident of' the state five years. Mr. PENNIMMAN (after enquiring of th Chnir what course of remark would be in order an I what not, in reply to attacks on this whole artic!e)-went on to uige the retention of all the qualifications in the second section-those of age, nativity t(id residence. He would retin tli e word nitive-fir,-t because it was in a c.nsi lerable portion t:f ouir state constitutionzit was in the constitutions ofh' Maine, Missouri, an I virtually in that of' Arkansas. Nor was there a state in the iUnion that did not require a resilenhe of five 3ears and upwards. Virginia virta i ly ret tire i t:iat a governor should be na. live birni. Maine, s lie ha:d said, required the s'ime q uualificatio s as were provide3in this section ew HIlamit pshiire reqouied a seveii years' res1 icn-e an.l a propeity quai'iicatio:i-ws hich Mr. P. didl nt believe in. New Jersey required a c.tizenship of twenty years. Maiyland a residence tf' five years, ai.l a property qualification. Virginia requirel. five years' iresilence, an I thle native qualifiction, or what was equi. valent citiznsidi.) at the adoption of the federal constitution. So Missouri requirel that a governor shoull be native brn or a resiJent ol the Louisiani territory when it was ceded by Fraace, whicli amountel to the nake.l native qualification. So in Ohio, Arkansas and Tennesee, all these qualifications, and more strin. gent ones, were required. And he ventured to say that there was scarcely a state in the Union that did not require a lung peri:l of' residence at least, al of themt the qualification oi' ae,. an i i.;any of them what was eauiualent to n'itivity in t;iis country. Mr P. alluded to the attempt yesterday to force down this section not by tie cry of( deinocracy, but by showing that. its a Ivocates distrusted the people. The love of' the people, tilhe dear people, was generally on men's tongues-whether they always acted in accordl. ance with that sentiment, was another questioni. [A laugh.] Now, lie had shown, by reference to the constitution of Virginia, that this section require.l no more, it as muc.ai as thle constilution of' that statue did. AnJ whil-t he was a native of New lHampshire and held to Virginia doctrine, lie took it no hiih-priest of' party could unchurch him. [A laugh.] And here he begge I leave t) state that the political feu Is in his section of the state, were not betwecu native citizens and foreieaners-but between inative citizens of' dilIerent stocks-such as the Yankees and the Dutch. both however born here. That was the case in his old town in Orleans. one part of it being,ettled lby per-sons of New England, and the other by persouis of' Dutch dsceent-an I they went gen-ra'ly in a bo.ly again-t each other. And this was the ca:.e, he h'li been informed, in other parts of the state. Now what would be the practical result of striking out the word native. Obviously.,that each plarty would bid for foreign voles, by se. lecting tireigners as can lidales, or they would bil for niative votes by putting up n-tive can Iidatee- -and the tendency could not be otherwise thatn ihijuricus. Retain the wor.d, and nei. Iher p.rty coull go itW that gasme. Mr. P, slid he could not take his seat without alna. ding to the course taken in debate here in rein. tion to committee number five and its rep:rt. tie had felt something on his conscience, u.i.,er these attacks. But he had got over that. lie fel. tolerably good natured. Perhaps the committee had been treated decorously-he was bound to believe that no intentional disrespect was intended. The gentleman fromt Oneida (Mr. KIRKLAND,) made something of an at. tack on our report the other day. Butt lie was merely the vananard, as Gen. ]Hull ataid, 0u' a greater force. [A lauuh.] le was fIlowed by the gent'.eman from Orange, (Mr. BRows,) on Monday, who enlarged an an amplified the,rroun'l of \attack. Next came the gentleman om:n Essex (Mr. SIMMONS,) wo, no doubt with. oat intending any disrespect alludled to the ab. sence of' a report in this case. saying that had the committee written out one in support of this article, it would liave been a different tihingintimating distinctly either that we had not inves. t gated the subject or else that there was not tal. ent ienough in the committee to write out a report. [Litughler.] This attack was f'ollowed by tiie gentleman from Orange again-and then the gen. tleman Irom Oneida again. who outdid the whole, it' he did not outdo himself. [Laughter.] Last, though not least, camie his venerable friend f~-om Chautauque (Mr. PAT'TERSON)who was about hall' related to him, coming as b lth did fromn tne old Granite state. That g:intleman, in his excessive charity, presumel that we were too i,no.ant to investigate the subject-and threw all the blainme upon the gentleiman f'romn New York (Mr. MORRIS), our chairtnan-because lie did not run his pen over certain words in the old constLtution-suplposing that the rest of us could not either write or read. or both. [Roars of laughter.] IIs mantle of charity coveted all the rest oft' them up! That, Mr. P. said, was the " most unkin lest" ut of all, and he was almost led to xc'.aim with Ce-. sar, " and thou too, Brutus!" [IRenewed laugh. ter.] Now Mr. P. had a proposition to mike. He was not tenacious about it on his own account. We (colrmittee No. 5) all lie dleatd, except our chairma n-['au-hter]-and the recesses of his vitality lie too deep for any small shaft to rtach -but though not dead, hlie sleeps. [Renewed laughter.] Mr. P.'s only fear was that the Pre. sident might be blamed —for committee number five were all -dead, down, used up. [Renewel laughter, during which, and all along here Mr. P. could scarcely be heard at the Replorter's seat.] Why under Heaven, it miglht be asked, did lie (the President) select almost all the talent here to put on the judiciary committeean:l leave poor number five without any?[Laughter.] We had two lawyers on our committee, but they were small lights coralpared with the gigantic, towering intellects on the jud;ciary. [Roars of laughter.] Mr. P.'s first idea 'ia that the t'iree distinuguished gentlemen from Oneida, Orange, and Essex, (Messrs. KIRKLAND, BROWN and SIMMONS,) shoui.l be committee number five and that we should retire. But lie had a second-a dying request, [ aughter]-that the learned and eloq uent gentlemen fromii Orangs, and Essex (lMessr$.,Uaow anl~.MAstro;5o so gult be all t4e comuit. 140 tees of this ecrncntion, [aughtcr] except Ns 5- quiliflcitions of age and residence, in n Govcr. and that the gentleman:ronm Oneid. (Mr. KIRK. nor. Now all the gentlemen would remem bi — LAND), i' he had tine to spare lfom his arduous he remembered sore oneor twoand others mi iht nlabors on the judiciary, should constitute num. remember more-exciting political caimpr g.;s, ber five [laughter]; and that the gentleman from when the whole state was excite;l from one bIr. Chautauque (Mr. PATTERSON) be the Conven- der to the other-during which the people w re lion, [laughter. long an. loud]-that he should addressed at their meetirgs of' tes ol thousands, submit every thing to the dear people-ni-that and were carried away by the burning e!cquence lie should be the dear people himsell; [renewedl of gentlemen from otler slates of this Unitn. In laughter]. Mr. P. btgged the Convention in its his argument, le was not driven to cress the At. wisJom, to provide some way in which pocr lantic nor did he wish to do so,fr his illustrations, committee number five might be relieved — or, for if brought so far, on the one hand he should as a high dignitary (:nce said, " our sufferings is perhaps be charged with reflecting on thoie cit. intolerable." [Laughter.] izens who were of foreign hiith, or on the oth. Mr. MORRIS sai li he rose principally to say er, it might be suspected that lie too. was speak. -' Robin's alive, and alive like to be." It his ing to Buncombe. or fishing for political capital. learned associate upon the committee (the gen. Al.i as neither was his object, lie did not i.-sh tleman from Orleans) had had the experience to rest under such imputat.on. He should cnly Mr. M. had (though his years might be more) allude to the citizens of other states It mi-l.t le would not have been so sensitive, a id would be that during somne excitement o' the kind al. have known that no disresplect was intended by lude to, the people, enchanted and carried a. gentlemen, to committee No. five. Mr. M. way by fervid and impasiioned eloquence, might knew each anl all ol the gentlemen and that elect a gentleman ignorant of cur local laws and. they intended no disrespect whatever. They institutions, and of the necessities and requirelad merely used committee No. live, and its re- memits of the people. It was to seenre in mur port. Ior days,-an I whether that report was governor the local knowledge, and the proper under discussion or not-to make their Bun. feeling of state pride andt interest, that he combe speeches. [Laughter ] Gentlemen did deemed it prudJent that lie should be a cili. 11not intenl to censure the committee. There was zen, and have reside;d among us sufficient. ho committee of the body to which somle gen- ly to become acquainted with our local laws tlenen should be so much indebted as to coan and institutions, and to apprecie the he nc. mittee number five, for its report l.ad afordedal cessities and requirements of the people.them lfor a long time, as lie had said before, What was there iniproper in this? It might be whether under consideration or not, subjects lo said it was a useless provisicn-that the people discussion, and had enabled them to throw off could never be guilty ol'f such lly. This might theirsulerabun!ant patriotism. Instead of cen- be true, an;1 it would no doubt alwans be so, sure-and lie knew no censure was intended, unless under the influence ol some great public the committee should receive a vote of thank. excitement. There had been temporarily, g eat from gentlemen, for giving them a foot-ball to public excitements, that overbore all tfl,~rts to kick and thus bring themselves prominently be. stay it, and threatened to destroy a protmit.' nt fore the public. (A laugh.) That however feature in our republican institutions. He na-kh iadl now passed,-the cork had been drawn,-e l, if when that excitement was at its heiight, thie effervesence had escaped, and we had arri. whether any man from any state, if nominaledt ve.l it the seriou,, legitimate business of the could not have been elected? It was rinot neces. Convention. The question before the commit- sary to mention the excitement he alluded to, tee was the time specified in the section that for it occurred so short a time since, and was so the citizen should be a resident of the extensive, that it could not have been foreotten. state before becoming eligible to the office Such excitement almost laid in ashes the chief of governor. The section specified five years; city of a neighiboring state. He deemed it wise an I there was a proposition to make it three therefore that there should be this qualification years; and, lie understood, there was to be ano. in the constitution-that a mnan to lIe Governor, thIer proposition to strike out the whole section. should be a citizen, and have resided l ng It was said by some of his learnel associates, enough in the state to become acquainted With that to require in the constitution any qualifica. our laws and institutions. tion for a citizen to becomea caniidate for eov. Mr. SWACKHAMEl said the arguments ernor, or in the least to trammel electors in their which had been useJd o tohe restrictive qualiftichoice, was an imputation upon the intelligence cation were all basedl upon the massumption that of the people. If so, why have a constitution? the people coul.l not mnor would not judge pro. an I what object was there in a constitution bitt perly. He wished it to be distinctly unmerstotod to provide chiecks and guarJs? Why (lid we that this was the loun Ilatin cn nwhich all the have two deliberative bodies in our legislature, arguments of' gentlemen on the (,ther side vere the one elected for a numter of years, an:l the based. The gent'eman from New-York (Mr. other for but one year, but to produce checks and MORRIt) had enquired why they made a ci nsti. guards-to enable the who!e to reflect and delib. tution at all. '1o which Mr. S. repliceJ that it emrate upon the subjects of legislation? If he was to protect the rights of the people. and not rmight also imitate his friend from Orleans (Mr. to prescribe to the pelople who they should elect PE.ENNIMAN.) by using a quottion, lie would tm office, or to dictate the mtrode in which they say, that chiltks and guards were established, to should proceel in their selection. As to ihe Secure thl "8sober second thought." This Was matter of' time or age, lie was of opinionl that it the *hjectof these checkts and guardt, anld hbad was of very little importamce further than that lwayws ie t~b t 4 yrevi trcau i at iavslv4 tIke lua4amcatal principle that the 141 peo?1)e were not oompetent to jtidge or all mat- on the speech or the rentleman fromn Orleans, lers affecring their own interests.)He -agree] Mr. S. proceededI to notice the observations of' witti some gentlemen who find precedled him, the gentleman from New York (M4r. MORRIS) thvat the people were capable; and in snying in relaition to the great excitements that somne. flilie dlistinictly denied thamt he wvas~ talking for times prevaile.d, coiiteiidingt thIat good invtiriably, Boiujcomnbe. lie came fic2re atn advocate of that arose out of such excitemnen'fe priuic p~le which was the Ifoundlation of' our re- Mr. SIMON10NS and Mr. 1PENNIMIAN bo~t p~ullica1n government. The gentlema.i from Es- made brief' explanations. s~ex had Iai le somne remarks to which it was not' Mr. KPNNIl'iJY then moved that the com1oct'SS.ary now to reply. He could not do so mittee rise, wh'ch wats agreed to, anI the c:)nusatasfhctoarily, inatsmuch as they were out of' or- mittee rose, an] obtained leave to,it ngain. ier; buit this lie wouldl say, that that gentleman The Convention then adjourned to Mun~lay had assumel fialse positions. After commenting morning at IIlo'clock, MONDAY, JUNE 29. Pr-iyer by the Rev. Dr. WYCKOF'F. vidaully, as an inexpericaceed member of that. Tile PiIES[DIENT fail before the Convention Committee, and to the Conivention itself, to lpre. returns from the clerk of' the 6th equity circuit, event f:ossible misapprehensions arising fromn the in relatioa to itiantit' estates, &c-., in comp.1z- suboaission of' riaf-el propositions, unaccomnpaance wvith a resolution of' the Convention. Inied by any r'easn.n;. facts or- argumenlt', to jusIIANI(S.- ANt) CUR11tt8SCY. tify the goneral scope of' Utese priopositions. The Mr. CAM B.'IELENG, from the commit tee on Convention hlan decide I that the repor's of' all curcency a il bant~iza, sui I he was instructed bystnfn onite'shudle aeinhs that Committee to make the followingr report, man111ner. To this order lie yielded cheerful ac~vic a ra yLe ertr quia'scence. as evety memnber shouldl, tit every 'Ilecmrite owhich wasec realrrt'tatheecrthjecs decision of the liody fairly expressed, wvhatever or ~tt~~ iti Ct retc. atal t eslia Ot ~tenJaiec~ ll~hus own opiniot of'the propriety mnight be. Up. to the eata,%edit iaey ta' tnaking- at to titta fottati firovis. on the great 'ani intricate subject of currency jolt, ta httesuhuaesiit t t 1ssl)t ti uiiltgI n akirg, a report embracing merely specihV faihie Col. (Ih '4 ets of'their re:lapctive corporatii as,",7 fic provisions of'fundlamental law for its re~rulare'spa't itiily r'jpurt, the I'lu wia'iaig resolta toi utidl" ". amea11s11 i much I tion, %with out tiny expositirn am' the meats andi ftta'salved, I'-ts uhof the oth sedain ofahe 7th priociplcs upon wvhich such firovisions are fousi I. arac(:e tat the fatiutaa I'alas suta-, as relattas to ed, anal witlaout previotis d&scuss-ion, was a no,the aic rauraiLiOn of' bataks, Le anad the snuic is hereby vol ilea to his mini. Yet it miurht hue all right. aibulishr d. PAOPOSEF) AMENDMVENTS. 13y this course, fiowever', members (at the standThelagsltate sil h~ve o owe topais ny aw ing committee were individually responsible for gruanttata -specuat ch!rters ior batakiiag pu pos bu the entire report, unless a disa.ent in soatte form assa'eacmiitaaas faor sacha purfposes itt y be tuatta d utader wsepressed, because the report itself'was nogativratl laws. 'ft~e laega-i~iattaae Avrill (rave tao potwer to, thing but the conclusions of thte cottarittee, up. autitthatriza', it r tat Ivass any l:aiw 'antciianin7 an any mta.- on the iwhole subject. Tif'fe report miniht be able t-oiertha, otspralattiof'ataicn sieatyaieat byatik~ n ioteioftt an] correct as a whfole, yet if any memober pardesicri litiaaiorn acruainisi.btk a~uaa tially disagree, his dissent so far, to avoid inconAl at ileidiata bankers, and the stockhn'dp'rs in every sistency, should be expressed upon the first op. ns!aiciatiatta Iar hatakaig paurpost s, isltuing tanak tautes portunity. or itmy t~aiat of' lanatr cediars to ci retaltate as atauay, hernia'aaaar ti tharized~ or tairmed, s!.;til be responsiable tit With all deference to the honorable chairman? tfut'ir itaitPiti atI id tarvyate Capittities foar hII dehtsittd and[ to the (atber members of' the comataittee wh Riat hi eas of' avery kand, incurred by any such banker united in the report, and with unefeined alistrust vrnssaciaaeti.~I 'The I gislatture shall artavide by laiw for the registry of' hais (awn opinions. hie 'could not yiel I entire of atll bills (at tiotes, issuted or aitat iti circui atliat ats Iassent 'to one position contained in it. He could totarty, attd siasall reqaaire fir t ha readempt~ion tat the not see the florce or proprie y of the distinction same iai stpvc e, atmatle seetarity by pledges tafaropert v. traken by the cotomittee, as to persontal respon. i, hu iividuatl a ataker, iuur batkitng tar ittaer intil ta iyinoe rncofbkngbstsshtiati of atty ta'aoaaiaaatit iat, statllt alter the year a. ibiiyi n r n ho a kn uies issiac Ktank no es or attay kind tat' taper credit. tat circc- tween two classes of' bankers perftarming the laeit? taaatacny, eXcetat ltatauer ttae paavi totas attd majun sm uies f icaia oe hudb that catnd hatiow ire4!rlbt'd iii abe preceading sac tataos smae bsiesu 1 ic'tmnts hudb ratat atat afer th yea ie~ i~oiermale u chatersre by pledges of stock an] other secur tII tat fAir h tttaita, praprotses, oir tao caMiulInit's tar as- rity, and1 by sutauraidded personal liability, hLe saaataotaas for tiny tathar taurtaoa-, attith ax_ Iacis1o batik- could not see why the persons issuina, this donLg t vers, lathl be revoked aind tianualkd bly fortified currency, should be helId to more Mr. C. said this report was bait a report in stringent constitutitonal provisions relating to part, as thea'e were some other subjects still on. other branchtes of' banking bus-iness, thata were tder the consideratiran otI' tIme committee. He numerous other banking associations, that mtoved to refer the report to the committee of the did not issue the circulatingZ melinnm. In other' Whale, words, if the legislature were, permitlel to estaMr. RUSSELL, (from the committee,) claim- blisha. upon the principle of'limited copartner. el the itad Ulgenee of the Convention, to make a ship, associations for the btusiviess of di-couint, few remarks before the reference of this report exchianwe and deposit merely,, why not entrust Was male. It wa's due 'to the importnnce of the to the law-mak-ing power, thertegulation of' thle subjeets-embzraced in thi'report4 to himself'iid. same branch whela traasacted by others, who I 142 in addition, shall furnish a safe currency, based upon ample security arnd unlimited personal liability To r him, the distinction appeared invidi ous and unreascnable. 'fThe committee unanimously agreed, that all persons, authorized by government to issue paper for circulatitn as representative of coin, shoul.l, in addition to other securities, be per. sonally responsible for the certain redemption of such paper. This regulation of the currency was emphatically demanded by our constituents. Concerinag other branches ofl banking, as with all other kinds of business connected with commerce, might not the control of government, if at all necessary, be safe!y entrusted to legislatit;n without constitutional restraints? If constitutional law should enforce full personal lia bility upon in lividual members of' all associations, who might issue registered and secured notes as money, for all other contracts of associations, and should relieve, from similar liabilities, members of other banking associations elngge.l in the same business, because they (lid not issue such notes, he feared this discriminalion miniht tend to throw the issue of currency into wealker hands, who might be willing to haz. girl greater liabilities. Such was the opinion (f several gentlemen of much experience, with whom he ha I recently conversed. Besides, it would create an onerous preference in favor of the bankers of' our commercial emporium, against those of other sections of' the state. It was well known, that the amount of circulating notes issued by the large banks of New York city bear but a small proportion to the amount of their capital, discounts and exchanges. The notes of these city banks were not their real circulation. Persons, obtaining discounts from, and selling exchanges to these banks, did not receive their notes, but simply credits on their books, which were withdrawn by drafts or checks of the depositors- These drafts and checks, rather than the notes of the banks, were the real circulation furnished. This currency was sale, because it had the individual responsibility of the drawers, as well as the bank cred. its upon which it was basedl, and was promptly returned for payment, in the ordinary course of business. The New York city banks could ensi'y withdraw their circulating notes, an l still not materially diminish their business. Not so with country banks. Their notes performed the office of checks an I drafts, in nine-tenths of the ordinary business exchanges performed through the agency of these banks. Country banks, of necessity, must be banks of issue, as well as of discount anil deposit. T'hese were some of the considerations, which induced in his mind the opinion, that it is unwise to in.ert in the constitution any provision goin; beyon'l the enforcement of personal liability of' all bankers for the reledmption of their paper circulated as money. All persons, authorizied by law to circulate paper as a substitute for coin, should be hel. to unlitnitel responsibility for its redemption in coin. But in his ju ngment, every other branch of banking business shoulJ be placed on the same ground with otler commercial operations. These sugzeotious were thrown out with great dlt dience, and with most respectful detference to the opinions of other members of the committee. It gnve himmuch pleasure to be able to state, that upon other questions before the committee, they had been unanimous in the conclusions expresse.l in the report, and liechairman, by his experience, research, and industry, ihad gi-eatly aideil in the attainment of this unanimi y. With the single exception before explained, he concurred lully with every part of' the report. UnJer present impressions, he wouldl amen i the report, ilI the latter clause of' the secondi proposed amrenl Iiet, by striking out the words, *' debts anl lin lilities of every kind incurredJ, and 'y inserting Ilhe words, " such notes on paper credits." T'lere was at least a doubt of the propriety of' a cin. stitutional provision enforcing unequally liabilit:es growing oat of' the same kind of business, merely because one class of' persons, tranisact ng this business, conduct also another branch t'f business, which was made perfectly secure w\ithout this controlling inequality. It was letter to leave the question open to legislative act;ol, th; n to incorporate in the constitution a provision of doubtful tendency. He trusted when the reilort shall go to the committee of the whole, this subject would receive tie attention of members much abler than himself to give it appropriate discussion. Mr. CAMBRELENG sa-d lie would not vio late a parliamentary rule-which he was very sorry to say had been so frequently violated that nearly a month had passel in discussing questions of reference, unler which the merits were only to a very limited xtent un ler consiJeration. Mr. C. did not interrupt his associate on the committee, because at the outset, Ie was willing that the gentleman should have an opportunity to present his views. tie must be indulged in answer-not to anticipate discussicn, for lie would not permit himself to he diawn iito it now-with a single remark. The point, and the on'y point the gentleman made was thisthat lie would impose personal responsibility to the extent of the circulating notes Now. the committee had already required, by these an:endments property as security for these niotes. We had endorsed these banks. They were governl ment banks; anrd being government banks and acting tuder its authority, tlhe rule which was gool for the circulation was grod also lor the widows and orphans having dlepo. sites with them. Another point-that of inc. quality-required perhalps a remark. Tlie distinction an- the only distinction recognized by the committee was this. Banking, legitimate banking, was a business with which governmient had nothing to do, any more than with any u t:;er branch of biusiness. Currency was the Lusiness of governmient with wli h ban'is shoili never have had any tiling to do. But having something to do with it, un.ler the aut!ority mo government, the latter was bound to preleci the community against their excesses. The comnmittee proposel to put every bank, alttr the year 1355, on the saime footing. Lv,.ry lank issuing currency, must be under the control (t government. IlBanis not issuing currency might do as they pleased.. VW:at w;as the actual couli. tion ol'thing, now? Here were ibur an I twenty country banks, owned by inliviJlunl bankers whM were liable personally fur every debt in 143 every form. What a spectacle was presented here! Four nn] twenty binks commenced by some of the sounlest capitalists in the state, issui.i. circul-ting notes secured by pledges (;f st)Ccks, and personally liable for every debt; whilst your privilege] associations, doing the same business. were not persona.ly liable for any dejt. Mr. VORDLN, wi:h great deference. inqui. red whevre the e 24 banks were? Mlr. CAMBRELENG: I have a list of them. lMr. WOKDEN: Does it embrace free banks? Mr. C(AMBlREL.LENG: Free banks. Mr. WO RDEN: Does not the gent:eman know th:lt ione of these are personlaliy liab!k? Mr. CAM1BRIC ELENG: I have the authorily of the Comlptroller for it, and the law. I find also at t.e Comptroller's office, that the notes run "1 promise to pay." signed by the inliviJual ba Ik er. Mr. WORDEN: The statute expressly pro vi tes that associate bankers shall not be personally Iablee Mr. CAMBRELENG: Not the sharehol3ers in joint stock a.sccinatons, but all individual blnikers aie liable. Mr'.. went on to say that these amennlments weie not designed to disturb any ex sting bankini inst.tation. Every bai ikin- instilttion, now in existence, would after 18)3, be allowed the opticn either of withdrawing its notes from circulation, or coming in under these amnenldments. On a )proper occasion, he shlould attempt to show that Ih;s was an operation by no means difficult. One of the banks in New York hid now with.lrawn its circulatioi., because it dil not choose to come under the provisions of thie general banking law. But he would not articipa.te further. All he hal tosay was that these amlendrnents were proposed without any view of disturbing any exi ting institutions. Tenl years hence, if these am. nlaments were aioplted, they must determine whether they woull remain currency banks. If so, they must come un ler thiese general provisions-anl every bank, inlivilual banker, incorporation or association, Imu.l stand on the same footin.ie aJde.I, in regarl to the mode of making relports-that he observed the members of ccmmiittee number five appended their names to their report. lIe sl;old be much mistaken, if in the enl, all of them were found sustaining a'l the provision, of Ihat article. The parliampniary rule was the best-which was that re. ports were to be re:zarde. as the act of the majorty of' the committee. Nor was it to be re. garded as any thing more than the result of an iiifornal conlereiice-any member even of the miajority being at liberty to reverse his opinion or his vote, if he should be convinced that lhe was in error In this case. two or three of the cotiititee li I not concur entirely on every propositionl-though upoin every one of them there was a mIljr.ty, and upon the whole a majority. Mr. PA'TT':RSON rose to give notice that I here:flifer lie shioul l feel obliged to call gentle. ( nmel to order who undertook to discuss the mer. its of.a prol)osition, on a mere question of refT ereice. This whole debate had been out of order, unl toa much time had already been wast. I ed in such discussions. Mr. RUSSELL said, that whenever a report was made from a committee of whicl t.e wnq a inemler, in which he di I not ccc.t., hle should claim it as his right to have his '...a i come be. Iorn t.e Convention in some shba;e, imaiultane. onsly with the report. It was necessary that all should have this right, in order that their subsequent action migti not be misconstrued into incoinsistency. An I unless the gag law was in force here, he should expect to be heard. Mr. PA L'TERSON hal no objection whatcv. er to a minority of a committee risingy anJ expressing their dissent, and stating wherein they dissented. But he dil object, anl it wns disor. derly to make that the excuse lor a full discus. sion of the merits. pending a motion for refer. ence. Mr. RUSSELL said the motion for reference was maJe heflre he rot the lloor. The PRESIDENT unlerslood the gentleman to ask anl to have obtained consent to express hi, views on this subject. Mr. WORDEN also so un:erstood it-that the gentleman from St. Lawrence ns!ke and obtaine;l leave, as ail the majority of the com. mittee when they reported, to present his views. He thought the gentleman was entirely in order; an I lie doubted whether it was not competent for him or any other member, on a question of re. ference to go into the merits so far as to show that the report was not such an one as should be consiilerel in committee of the whole, but shoulJ be re-committed. The report was relerrel to the committee of the whole, anl on motion of Mr. FLANIERS, an extra number of copies were ordered to be printed. LIMIFATION OF THE OCUPANCY OF LAND. Mr. WILLARD offere3 the followina resolu. tion, which was adopted:Resolved, That it bh r, fvrred to c mmittee numhnr eighit en, '( on the erectiont an I divisio of eslotats in I h l,'st" t inquire lhe;;c r the clai act r a;id per,-it. iiency of our ins i tlllilus woutld nolt be iner;ledI by uiiultiplying the nuimber of freeholde s and th. exlpe tliemncy iof t;Ifii dini;ll liiture accutlul; tion of' lie soil lo ext ceil 3:1o at r'rs per m:ln;ll(l re provlde some 'qlitliale nIodle fir tlle,r tdual refllction ui tlh preseut lauded monopoli s as tI.ey now exist. itEfXV.';s OF TH-t' CONVEVTo1N. Mr. STRONG submitted the following:Resolved, Trnt l hen this Cornvnition;iaj.urns on Tlilrsd. y u xt, it will adjouin to lmeet ag.aii on TLes. d;ay the 7th jul'. Mr. S. sail he thought it desirable to have this question of adjournmient over the 4th of July settled. He was satisfied that on Friday there would le very few members, certainly not a quorum in attendance, and it woull be hard to require the President to come here simply for the purpose of adjourning the Convention. He was himself ready to be here every day, bit he had no expectation that other gentlemen would he. lie had not offered this resolution now for the purpose of leading to debate; he was desi. rous to avoid debate, and he should preler with. Irawing the resolution to such a result; but he was desirous to have it known wihat the Coan vention had determined to do. Mr. MILLER hoped the gentleman woulJ not withdraw the resolution. If, as was admit. ted, there was not to be a quorum here on Fri. lay, it would be better to pass the resolutiao, 144 th'tt those miglht go home who were within a cor-venien t dista nee. Mr RICHMOND thought the resolution shouhl be better unde.,stcoAl-that cne of two things Shoul~i, be done. It' we were ti adjourn, it shrou~d be for such a limie as would give -si opportunily to all to goborne, which c~uud nutbhe done by ridjournirig fr-nm Thursday to Tuesday. it we were not all to have sufficitnt tin-e to gol home tire adjournment should nol be longver thrin fromn Friday to Monday. (Question," " Ques. tion "1) Alr. CHATFIELD moved to strike out Thursday"1 and insert " Friday-" Thbe amendment was negatived the vote beina 32 to 59. Ale. CHATFIELD then demanded the yeas anwl tays on the resolution and they were ordered, i-nd there were yeas 50, nays 53, rFs f1l1ows AY) S-M~essrs Anpcl, linker, li.riscorn, Boirck,Urowir, DWIii1, Gamretlhr I rg, Courerly, Coirk, C. rutii, ianaira lairJirth, Dodd, tibitrtiis, Gi-biardi qrnGealrim, U;rer-ire, Mimirrs, jitrr41i.41ii, I lott-iriss, Hurlt. A H trlieint',lotir, Hut chilui!uii, J-tyiti, Kt-uiiidty, tilmirr, MNieeil, ~jiller. Nelson r Nitel to Cuwi~r, Hiitnr, rihiser, Sir-i v, st. Jointr, stept'h-ii? tI rrui., Tirt, in lliiraiile, Towrn.eiii, Tilifi' Vri acher*Vair c-iirrieiihuvr-ii. %V-ad,\tArarreri,wXitrer~ury,W~itL'CckI N1,1'K — Air-ssrs Ayrriult, F F Bniuts 11 Backits Poit dih, iirmtiyIon, Arrnitndrre, I' rrr, it. Campbretrllt, jr1 C rendei, Cii iti eld, 1I Irurt, Cr jukfer, tlrlortou, F;ninters,, hiarrisoit iart, I.. Hunthinton,,.oiidii, lHi-riviin, KingstrY, Kirrr, I rd. Ahirrviii ormtorri Nellirr1 Nichrolas- Pete sir. Variter-,on, ir-nnimmn, Perkins, Porwers, i- hoirades, k- ich. trniod. IRuggles,, ir~is-ill, Srrlisbiiry,:,i-firirl, Sears; Shieliror,:irepi rH. irnrtions, Smi Ii, K. Sprenrcer, W H bSieirctr, t'-ltniitorr, Stewx, Taiggart, J. J Taeylor, W TJ~iy lir, Wotnd A. Wri~lit, W. B3.Wrighrt, J.Youngs, Mr. 1'ret-i tin -i~3. S'.o the resolution wias lost. S~r~VlCK OF MhIMBERS. Mr. TALLMADGE offered the folowing resolution It solved, Thrrt when rhe rremwrs.J this Conven thu-I it rite ai pplrlrctioii to the P. esi eit C r cC, titli& i tuiti litir herin to i heir cornt: enseit ten, they be sever-relly oelre cur-rtiy Ulrrer il-eir Ii nor, the number o at 'r %hih they liiie *evir illy a tetridedtl ie it htrigs" oh thiz inerty teand thtrnthlb Prer-ide t dedti.it till tee. Cay whidi ray irtemtl-.er sheall litre b~een aibsenit. n-xc-ept smrrir thur ns ire retry bri vc been utuinttteei in this ci y arid pre-vented attenditee Cy stY Sli kes,-. Mr. T. said hie had not lost oae hour of attendunce on the sittings of this convention; hut cn Monday week he hound lhele Nvere 43 members ab.,etit,and on other occa-sions there were ninny who were not in their seats, and of tirose -who were tire most frequently absent on Saturdays and Mondays, lire found] irat the majerity on tire v-ote just lainen was mainly tiade upl. With, a knowle.1ge of' thesze facts he had offhred the resolution, which lie was willing to lay on the table lor a shiort lime, to afford tire Convention time to considtr it. The resolution was laid on the table accord1.XCUTIVE PEPARTMENT. On motion of Mr. MORRIS, the Convention wvent into coasmiltee of lire whole oin the ar1.ic~e reporled by tire committee number fiT on tire Itowers, dutit S, &c., of the Executive, Mr. CHJATFIE~LD in the elsair. IThe CHAIRMAN stated the question to be cn the amendment of the gentlenran hnrom Es. sex (Mr. Slmslois.) to thle substitute of the g ntleman from St. Lawrence (Mr. RussELL), fir the se-cot d section. Mi-. NICHOLAS desired to cdfer an nnscnwl. meat to the amendment. The CAii NA nraig t adi a 'not strictly in oAr o enin isadrt a Mr NICHOLAS remarked that the nmeniineat of' the -entiteman frmn Essex was, ilesigried to add alter- the Avoril -e~eetor'l the vinrrls Iewho Inns bet a five years n resident of this state,"1 an I iris amnendmrent was designed to cxten I that tirne. Thle CHAIRMAN replied that the amenilmeat went further-il was -iesiz-ned to Provide Vint the governor sirouli aol' ire less than 311 Years of' ange and1 to prescribe a residence 01 not less than seven years. Trite resolution was read for information, as follows:Thle Governor s'call no' he liess than thirty years% oh' aetr, rind s~hill h-tvi let-a lor twr-lit yer-us;ut eiz-at a eel izi-t oltht~e Urniee vittesa, rde riersitat lit, eths altoe srierrl y1r r text lie rerr Iiris dec ion, it li-as in- at tiltI 'nycvet-r-tr -lhseeit. ihir~reru lb t titter ocri i Ir u tic busintemss ltire Urtrted!tatles err el tlls state. Mr. BASCOM said hit had but n single suz-.rest icn to tanki-, an I hi' believe I it "ins ciranecle I with thre dispatclr of'their bus-iness It seemel to he i~roper iti tire trpinlon oft the Conv( ation at oat othre that there should Ile somre gin. eral qualificatitrn for office-for officers of every descriptioi anai grade, for the Corrventoen hand referred to comrrrrrtee number- four tthis very strhjecl., of tire qunlilicatirta of'officers. In iris opi.nion there was but orre single line -necessary in the constitulica to embrace not only the s-ubject under ctnasideratirn, brut every other of a like character that wouli1 occur. Hle was thter efutre aigainst the pealing amendment. le should be In favor of' taking- a lest vote on the prolrosition of' the grenitlem'san 1rom St. Lawvrernce (Mr. Ru~sSELL) Irecause he tlioughit it would be tire rule I hit was proper to adopt not only in relereurce to t06 but to all other offices. lie thoughit %%e should have a rule, and lire cared art ii, it was thrs one. by winch tire qualficaticn, rf etecry ol'. cer should be defined. And in tIce ho1.e tnt ii they adopted tire qtunlificaticn of' thre geirteman from St. Lawrence, th-e y would wilbout ele. bate, -adopt it as the qua hificaticn of every officer under the Governor, lie should vote hir that rropositien. It would perhaps, however, heave been better if some generalI provision hard t evns reported, as seemed once to have br-ca intraded. Mr-. HUNT: I would resp~ecllully ask tire nirever of' lhe amendment 1lefore thre cominittee, to withdraw it for a timte at least, in order tlrat a vote may be taken as to the prtpriely if our dictating in any way to tire elector's rf tire stale whrat class of persons they shall e'ect to office; bor if vee have no authorily in the prewuises, as I think we have not, it is idle for us to wva-te titie in discussing how we woiuld exercise such authority if wve had it. I staled this objection io the seer-ad section of tine report of' cunminiltee No. five, soon after it was pretsented, to sutue of my colieagues in whose judgnnent I have great confidence, and tirey admitted its force. 1 sta ted, ans my view, that this Ctnventioni should re gard itself in the lighrt ofatn atlonney, acting Jon its~ client the people of the state, and timt th* 145 constitution we nre drafting should be regarded as n s.m:.Ile power ol attorney, orcode of instruc. t(<.n?, t.Le naiully executed by our clientor princii>a!, for the direction of such agents as they miny ie, eifter employ to transact the business of' -ove.'nlent in their behalf The great quest ens we have to considerure-W hat offices shall b- cirateJ? Ilow shall the people designate their oificers or agent-? VWhat powers shall be tie eate.l to thetm, and what specifically withheld? It is proper for the peop!e to prescribe the dultes an I lilmit the power of their deputies, for otetlrwise their deputies weculd become their miastc's: but they cannot limit their own discrelion in relation to tle choice of their own agents Wti,ltut forfeting their sovereignty. Who, in f atning a po er of altorney for an agent, would evs r itllk of in;erting any clause limiting his own poweis-of tying his own hands in order to Iecp nltiiseltf from picking his own pocket? \ow, as our Governor is to be chosen not by an c:tei,'al college, nut by depaties, but by the 1p o,~le in person, why say a word about his lUl;iilic;ttiots l.e,'e? 1 admit there are many q.i!iticaticn; which it is important that our Go\venor shoull always possess, lor instance: he should be a white ian —he should be not only a n;tlive citizen, but a native of Greene countylor, to quote the great argument of the natives, there are etough competent Greene county m-n in the state to fill all the offices of the state. lie shoul I bP a good Jelfersonian-not less than (i feet 2 in height-able to read and write and say the Lord's prayer, the creed. and the ten eolnalndnments-in a word, 1 wou'd insist on all the qua iticaLions that L possess myself; but inasinuch as I doubt whether the people o' the state have constitulie me their guardian, I dare not usurp that office, and therefore present the a. bove qualifictticns, not in the light of sovereign mn al;tes which they must obey, but as the sin. cere advice of a disnterested fiiend Entertaining t:iese views. I desire that we should first decile whether we have any right to 'interfere wilth the freeldom of elections," and then it may le in orler to determine how far our interference shall extend. I would not waste a whole week in arnguing what restrictions upon the fiee clho;ce of electors should be imposed, while certa n that we have no right to impose any restriction. -,t nal. Every momlent spent in discussing lor)opus.tions upon which we cannot act, is a mo. Ineat lost; and it' we thus waste our moments ntow, we may be compelled tQ act hastily here. after u pon those great matters which come with. in our leg.timn;te sphere of' duty. Mr. CjtOOKER hoped the gentleman from New York would diminish his standard some six incties, for in every other respect he (Mr. C.) was possessed of that gentleman's qualifical.ons Ior the office of Governor, an: might le ditpose l to become a candidate. [Laughter.] Mr. JORDAN thought it would be well to settle a principle in regard to their course of co. luct in the Convention. He sas desirous of calling out Irom the Convention an expression of op nion, whetner they were to have anythin, left of the old constitution, or whether they were to confine themselves to those parts of it which in practice had been found-inconvenient, and re. specting which the people of the state had been 10 calling for reforms? le supposed this was as favorable an opportunity to call out such an-expression as any other, for they were jiust eitletr ing upon the substantial business of the Conven. tion. lie confessed that he came there with te impression that they came to correct abus s or defects in the olJ constitution, where in its operation it was fovnd dlefective- here there were evils existing, of u hich their constituents had complained, and not for the purpose of joining in any attempt to alter the constitution where it op rated to their satisfaction- where there was no complaint —where there was no voice rai:el in the whole community in regard to its operation. Now he submitted to the Convention tLat there had been no inconvenience arising I. out the provision under consideration, requiring a candidate for the governorship to be eligib:e, to have resided within the state ior five years - There had not been a murmur rlaisel Ly tlhe peop'e against the provision of the constituti:n as it now exists, and therefore a vote upon it would settle the question which he desired to have the opinion of the Convention upon —iamely, whether they had come to coinect defects in that instrument, or to tear the whole fabric up by theroots? In this hediJ not wish to be any \\ i-ec than their predecessors.any further tlh an the lights oftexperience had given him wisdom.. As to m; ters of theory and speculation, he felt dislosedl to defer to those who have gone before us in e:.tah. lishing the fundamental law as well for this state as this Union and all the states of this Union. In the first place we have the constitution ol the Un ted States, adopted by the wisest men of this nation. In that instrument there is a provisi;n requiring that the candi late for the office of President of the United States shall be at least 35 )years of age; and he would ask them wherve in their experience had shown that to be improper? He asked what defect had been dis. covered? What voice had been raised against that provision in this state or nation? He asked a gain it it was not in itse f a wise provi-iin, that they should have experience as well as ea. pacity? He admitted there were gentlemen under 30 years of' age capable of governing this state, but he had yet to learn if a gentleman who had the capacity and learning to fit him for tie office, would; not beinp, o e l by ec.i y a.s more experience? He had had put into his hands by a friend a sort of statistical view of the constitutions of other states, nnl he found that there was not a single instance, except Rhode Islnl an l Connecticut, and he might addi not over thiee, where there was not some provision of this kinl. In Connecticut a man must havegained a settlement, and they had only to reelr to tl:e statute law of that state to discern how long it takes to gain a settlement there, anJ what resi. dence is necessary to make a man eligible for the office f' Governor. [A VOICE, one year.] But he found in two states of the Un:on ti.e term of residence was two years. In bour states the term was four years viz: Alabama, Missou. ri, Ohio, an:l Vermont. He found the term wrs five years, including New York under the exist. ing constitution, in Maine, Maryland, Virginia North Carolina, Indiana, New York and llli. nois. He found in three-Delaware, Kentucky, and Louisana. the term of residence was six 146 years. In Massachusetts, iew Jersey, (under her new constitution,) Teilnessee, und New Hlampshire the, term of residence is seven years. In soulh Carol,na and Arsansas it was ten years. In Georgia it was twelve years. Thus in m'iny of' the states of this Un;on they had rest ict.ons as to age much longer than in New York; and he asked why change this restriction unless it is fir the purpose o' launching out in the ocean of speculation and conjecture?ls opinion was ti.a: where they found things in lte const.Iution well enough as they are, they ha I better leave them as they are. They hali en;ugh to do with the revision and correction of that instrument in those tes. pects, where its operation was found detective or inadequate to the advancement of the public prosperity. They had enough to do to consume all ti-e time left them between now and the next annual election of this state to correct those de. fects without going into long debates and protracte.l discussions, such as had arisen under this section of the eport, and continued several d:ys —and which, if he was not g eatly mista. ker, had arisen cn proposed alterations f a part of the constitulion of which there had been no complaint, nor against which had theie been a voice raised, and about which they were not called upon or sent here to trouble themselves. N'ow it was said they could not restrict the peo p!e in the choice of a Governor. He had no de. sire to restrict them in the exercise of any (,f the rights of soveieianty. The people, however, h;la a right to restrict themselves. ` hey had a right to enter into a social compact-a bargain, if you please-with each other, and they had sent us here to do that business for them-lor the purpose of determining those rules of act'o anl of government by which the people here. alter will regulate themselves. If we did not come here for that, we came for nothing. Perhaps he was not as u!tra in his democracy as somie other gentlemen, but he believed he was suificien'ly so, and lie was opposed to impo:ing any trammels or restrictions on the free exercise of the sovereignty of the,tate, except where it became necessary, in order to establish rules of aetit n which must govern every power in the Universe, or it would run into confusion. Na. ture has her laws, and they are eternal as herself. The sovereign people too, must be gov. erned by laws or rules, or he submitted, theie was no necessity for a convention at all. Gentlemen said they must not restrict the people in their acts- the right of sovereignly must not be restrained; they must not say that a candidate for the offttice of Governor shall not be elig.ble unless he has attained 30 years of age. He would nsk what right they had to say to thepeop!e that there shall be a Governor at all? What right iha they to say that there shall not be two governors, or ten governors, it the sovereign peoplewill it? What right.al tney to say that there shall not be two or ten secretaries of state -two or ten comptrollers cf the treasury-or two or ten surveyors eeneral.? What right had they to say that they wvould restrict the exercise of the sovereign power, in electing a dozen it they pleased? Because the people have sent us here for that purpose-to prescribe rules of actioa for hegm and for ourselves, for we are tie sovereign r.op!c, representing them in the only Way in wlhich ttey can be represenle I 'I he doctrine of the gentlemeil to wl.om te had al. luded, who were against any restrictit n iln Ie. spect to the age of the Governor, appealed to him to go this whole length. It' tit ir doctrine was correct, what right have we to say iial tl.c jiJies of the supreme court shall hold:;.o ther office, if the sovereign l)e ple ptause? Wli t right have we to say tlat the officers of tl.e geC. eral government shall hold no oflice in this sia;e. it' the sovereign people l)lease? What rii.hi have we to make provision lor the appointul.ent of military officers, it Ithe so\eeigil leople choose to elect them at large? WhVy I)nII t,.c people in that respect? What ri-l.tl.ate we to say that the corminon school tlfnd shall 1iot be diverted to any other pui pose if tile sovir. eign people say they will put their halnd into the treasury and scatter it to the four winJs of heaven? Where would this ultra delmociacy slop? What willsbecome ol the canal fund, alld many other things, it the people arc not to be restrainel by the constitution? They are- ni t to t:e deprived of sovereign power, but by their own consent they prescribe to tlem:e. e% a law, for the purpose of avoiding anarchy and confusion-and they have delegated power tu ul to prescribe the rules for them. He was not ti.ere to be friightened by the idea many gei.tlieen eu. tertained, that they were endeavoring to circum. scribe an.l abridge the so\ceeigu li,%,er (,' the people. We canie here for tle purpose simply, as the sovereign plolple, to prescrlbe a rtle of conduct that we will all con:eit to be governed by, and one that in times of excitenitnt, iill not allow a bare maj(orty of the people to tran. ple upon the mlincrity, and in fact tlample upon the government itself. It would not, perlhpls, sound well in the ears of some gtntemtn, to -ay that there may be times when the lpeop.e tlem. selves may greatly err, a nd when the I.al.s of legislation may Le coriupteJ. But that thtre may, history, their own exlperience, and ctm. mon sense told them; and since it t as not very improper lor theim to adopt a rule of action in the forim of a constitution, b) which they woulit consent to be governed, it was not ou!y not improper but it was worse for a people in their sober moments of deliberation, when they had no other matters to perp!ex tleir minds-when they had no other subjects if contention, to determine the rules by * hich they will themselhs be governed. He was disposed on this ccasion, as the first opl)or. tunity he had had to express a settled olpin. ion oi so important a matler of principle, to record his vote in favor of the amendmient. lie understood the resolution of the gentleman fro:m St. Lawrence to go to strike out all qualifica. tion. He understood the amendtnnt prolooscd to restore the old provision which required a 5 years residence, and he could see nothing in it to operate mischievously. le couldI see nothing but what will operate beneficially. He could see nothing in tlhf idea which had been staited of stripping the people of sovereign power, to di. vert him from supporting the amendment. But he saw much to settle a principle of action and call out the Convention as to whether they were determined to lay arutlees, wanton lUaWU or 147 e"cry portion of the constitution, and revise and a ler it after the fashion of those Utopian gen. tl-men who imagined themsel es so much wiser thin their ancestors; or whetherthey would let well enough alone-whelher they would pass on to the business of the Convention, and exercise the power delegated to herm, and when they had doni that separate and go home to their constituents. lHe hoped the sentiment of the Conivent:on-woull be made known on that point. He would go with any gentleman any length war. ranted by experience either here or in any other state; oj by any well digeste.l or well considered theory, where there are delfets in the constitution for which their experience furnished no remiedy. In these respects he was willing to go any lentaths. But lie was unwilling t go into any project to alter this instrument under which we have so h n, and he rnigh say, so happily ar.d so prosperously lived, where no mischitf arises, and where no voice was raised for its amnilJirnent. Mr. W. TAYLOR was inclined to favor the suggestion of lie honorable gentlernan tfrom On. t r.o, "who said \when tl.is subject was last under consideration, that those parts of the constitution about which t'lere was no complaint, in which there is no evil suggested by their exper ente, or inconvenience lelt, as a general rule;a I better be left undisturbed. That doctrine ha I now been advocated by the gentleman from Columbia (Mr. JORDAN,) but he must add that when a question is blrought up iequiring his vi,te, if he loun I involved in it a prinaiple which will be violated by the application of the ru'e, then the rule must give way for the security of the principle. So he would say, if it were a question of expediency. If it was more expediient o aJopt an amenlinent than to violate a rule, he would adl(pt the amenJment and put ti.e rule aside. Ire believed the Convention had acte.l on tlhat prii:ciple already. Tiere had betn no compla;nt, no evil experienced from the word ''native," which is in the constitution, andl it lemnine to be considered if there was an; principle involved in that quesiion, or whether 't was expedient to adopt the amen Iment f the gentleman froIn St. Lawrence. That propositil(n di I not go, as was suggested by the gent'era n from Coluimbia, to the re;oval of all restricti ns- respecting residence. It proposel that pers ns, to I-e eligible bor the office cf Govi nor,.hall be qualIfieJ voters in this state, an.l if they di l ncn tater tile present provision in that ieslp ct, he lmust resi.le lere one year, an I must be a ctizen of the United States. Now be sub. initted, if a rtsidence o' ne year, was not sufl fic.ent for any individual who had had opportunities of' making his talents and qualilications ln,\11w —who by the peop!e of the stale of New Y< rk might be suplloseJ to unerstan I its insti. tutions anl laws, and who had made himself so conspicuous As to obttin the flvorable opinion of a mnjority (if the people (f the state-if it "as not safe nn I Mwie to leave to the people the hroa.lest latitu le in the selection of their CenJilates. It was a cherishe I princi. p'e with the people that the broaJest latitu le shlould lie allowed consistent with the public weltire —tlat in the selecti.n of candidates for office they should have tihe bruadest range, and he apprehendel no danger, nor any evil could grow out of the adoption of such a provision in the Constitution. 'The state of Rhole ls'an.l has framed a Constitution within the la-t th:e3 or four years-a state that has hitherto been regar.ded as not very democratic in her views; but she has been enlightened-she has receive I an impulse in the cause of democracy, and she has adoptedl a constitution containing the ve:y rro. vision which the gentleman from St. Lawrence has incorporated in his amen lnntn. It a persen is a qualified voter for the office for which lie is a canJid.te, he is eligible to the office itself. With regard to the danoer to grow out of any excitement, as the gentleman from New. York supposes, from a person coming in'o the state possessing those rare powers of eloquence that would carry away the Iiends and hearts of the people, he must confess he had no fear ut any such result. And as to the people ank. ing up an utter stranger who might come amongst them, because he swa3el their heads on some topic, itf in the dense population of New-York such a thing coull happen because of the glowing eloquence of some man -the effect would be but a temporary ima pulse A moment's cool reflection would make it all right with them. If however, it should not succeed, that impulse would never extt n l to the staid an l scattered population of the country, the sober, industrious, tlinlking mechanics an.l farmers, who would not be thus swayed. If therefore New York got wrong the country would put them right. With regard to the question of aae, they had seen instances where persons un. der 25, anl he believed but 21 or 22, had been elected governors of states in which no provision was made in regard to age. In Michigan this bad occurre. ''hey had had some experience of the talent of a young man who was left in charge of the territorial government, and they desired to have his aid when they became a State, and perhaps that influenced them in hav. ing no restriction, and when he became Governor Mr. T. believed he might say he adminis. tered the government of that statl. to the sntis. faction of the people. No evil ha resulted from it. Ani if the people of the state of New-York had a man under 30 whcse talents coiniandiled the confidence of the people and they crose to raise him to the highest oflice in their gift, might they not do so with perfect safety? But it was not proballe that such a case would occur he e. It require 1 ordinati'y a nai. to strugg:e along even 10 years, or 15 or 20 years, against his competitors who were striving to attain the same point; it wou'd require a long period to gainl the confidence of the peole uf this state and induce th m to put a man in the hi!hest place in their gift. How were nrminations got up by ahl pauties, an-l how Ipehaps wouldl they be got up for all timie to come? Why the people assembled an l e'e-teJ delegalesmen of characer-men htnoun to be intelligent an I prudent an I discreet-an.l ihey assenimbleu in Conventiatn an I put in nominationi befire the people a man in whom they nhad confild nee. How then could evil grow ut f leav.na it un. rtstrictedl? An individualcould tot rise up ann lnominate himself for Governor anl carry away the atieclions of the peojle, if he were auara. 148 proper person. It was impossible. There was no danger then in leaving the clause in the con. Stitution unrestricted respecting either age or residence further than as proposed by the gentlematn from St. Lawrence. Entertaining these views he should sastain his amenIment. Mr. ANGEL had been unwilling to trespass on tie aitent:on of the Convention und therefore he hal sat in silence from the commencement of the sess'on, but as ha been observed, as they were about to establish a principle, he felt some anxiety respecting the conclusion to which they might come, and was desirous tmat they should have a free expression of views one to another, and a fll anl f'air understanling in regard to the princip e which the Ccnvention might soon be cal:ed upon to settle. It had Ieen suggestedl an I much to his surprise, that they ought not to make lav7s here to bind the people, for that when proper occasions arise Ihe people will j i lle and determine for t!;emselves. Now what was the design of a constitution? What was it but a rule of action to govern in the administra. tion of a.government? It was a law which was de.igned to bin] the sovereign people. By our government we make a majority control-we vest sovereigcn power in a majorily of the people. But the minority also has rights, as well us the majority. The minority has a right to say to the majority "we must bind and circumscribe your action; we are not willing to give you a power that is omnil-otent." buchl is the right of i minority; anl what was a constituticn goodl for unless it were to bind the action cfa majority? There would be no security for our peace if we were left to the ever varying disposition of the najjcrity? We have had experience enough for the last six years to admonish us that we should have something stable-something that cannot be broken dovii by every passing excitement, or blown to the four winds of Heaven ly evtry breeze. As lie unlerstood their duty, it was to prescribe rules an] regulations that will keep within hounds the acticn of' the government and the people. This was not a new idea -it had bet n stated and repeated that minorities msalzt complain otttn, and 1,itteily, and justly of' the action of majorities; and we have a right to say that we will forim a compact, that tWe will make a bargain that shall set due bounds lo all, an.I say to the majority "' thus far shall you go, and no farther."' As regarded the amen linent under consideration, 5 years was proposed by it to be the time during which a residence should be shown in this state. That Was the provision of the existing constitution, but it went further an.1 required that the Gover. not' should be a " native" citizen of the U. S.bince the adjournment cn Saturday, he had taken the trouble to look into the debatsc and journas of' the Convention of 1321. In examining the constitution of 1777, lie found that there was no such qualification required-but in the Convention cf 1821 the word " native" was introduced. He ihad enquired of several gentlemen why such an alteration had been made, but he tould not get a satisfactory answer. He there. fire took the trouble to look into the journal of the debates. afnd in the jour;al he found that the report of -the committee oin the Executive departm'at r6commiendeid a residtence O' 14.yars; and that wi.en the Convention went into commit tee of' the whole on that report, a delegate Irom Saratoga made a motion to strike out the prowision for 14 years' resilence and to sul stilute a provision that the Ext cutive should be a natural. born citizen of the U. S. That was ad, pied in committee of the whole unanimously. Aftierwards however, in Convention, the words "natural born citizen" were strickten out, an I the word " native" was substituted, as lhe orig;nal words might have left an uncei tainty as to the meaning of the Convention, for " natural horn citizen" might have had some reference to to lie manner of' birth, while tlhe wor.t - native" would refer more piarticularlyto the place cf bi, th. Mr. A. was not very pertinacious about the retention of' the word "' native." for it would cut ill' a consideranle class of' citizens tl:at i.ught to be include.l. There were many Lrought heie iby their parents in infaney who would, by a flie spent here, be as well acquainted wvith cur in stitttions, and as proper persons to fill the )p!.'ce of Governor, as those born here. But Ie did object to taking a fIreigner twho was born and had lived under a d.ff'erent form of government, a stranger to our institutions and their operations, who would necessarily bring with lim more or less of the feelings imbibed in the ~oun. try whence he came, which are inherent in hu. man nature, and follow mtan wl;eiever lie coes. Man natuially clings in heart to the land oi his nativity to some extent, and such feelings miiliht possibly in an alien Governor, in some emeergeiey bring him in collision with his duty to the stale. While, therefore, lie was not tenacious for ihe retention of the wordl "native," lie vwas leuna cious of some provision xhich sl.all icquite tlhe person who shall aJniini.-ter cut goveriimett, to be acquainted with our state. its history anid its institutions. We have a large leirilory, we are a numerous people; we possees dive sified interests, an.t a year's residence would hit give any nian a sufficient knowledlge to ennble uimt to administer tite affairs cf our government. Years are requisite to give a proper knuow. ledge of' our local interests and ntecessitits. No gentleman could seriously maintnin thiat a year's residence was a!l-sufficient. IHe had no unkind feeling towards foreigners who come to reside amongst us. lie thought it po-. per that they should come. and that when It ey came they should have equ'l rig.hls and privileges so far as their information in egard tuotur institutions enabled them to discharge the duties devolving upon them. lie repented, I.e hial no unkind Ieeling -tovards Ibreigners, nor I.a I he any attachment for the party that %was got up to persecu:e them; but lie wmiante I a man as Gover' nr, wvho by a Ion, residence hias aiquired a knowledlge of executive duties-a man of age aud experience-a man vwho knows the wants and necessities of' the people Ile was somewhat surprised to hear it staled heie ti at no qualification as to age was requisite. Iie had himself numbered a good many years, and he certainly loolke back and saw the progress he had made. When lie was thirty he found lie had learned more in the last ten years, than in.tlfe preceding tu eity. Anil when lie was forty, he found: the previous ten ytars had been mtre piofitable in experiencethaat atly 149 prt of his previous life. We do not want in was 25 —nr very few would question the abili. tue Executive chair a rash young man. Itmight ty and skill ani power with which he exercise I he sat I we shall not get one. T'lere could then dlelegatel authioriy. Napoleon commanled the b? n~ objection to a restrictiun which would arny of Italy at 26-and were Mr. B. to r, f r be harmless, whi!e it woul I prevent an evil to tie p.rioJ where t'int great general exhiibited thou-li of rare occurrence. if the anticipations the greatest capacity oIr war or goverimnint, he (f sjch objectlcrs should be disappointel.- should point to tho:t perio.l of his lilfe; he 'J hey sawv many young men cap)abe of man- Convention of 1I 21 exc'uie I judecs from t:.e ngi,,; bj-iness, belore they arrived at their bench at 60. But exper.ence hal shown that It alt mijority, 21 years; yet before taot men thrown out by thatru'e. hadexhibited more a e t'iey cMoul. not bin I themselves by contracts. vior of intellect afier 60, than for the te" years Eut hectusc a li'w were as well qualified at an belore-ani the rule was now almost univei'sa!anrli r periiod of' lfe a' others at forty, would ly condemned. Pitt, if I.e recollected arig:it, they renuove the re-trictions froman entire c!as-? t iok h s seat in the Hou-e of Commtnins at 22z r Wou I they for such a reason, pIer'init boys to 23. He was prime minister of Englanl at a pevote I The age of twenmy.one was fixe I as the riol in the history of that nation, scarcely parp,inod wiien an ad Ilt should vole, arn I had they allelleJ in the diflicu'ties which Leset it. Mr. B. n i..s mucNi I glht to restrict the governorship insistel that the age of 25 3ears mirl.It be safely to thirty as the f'anchise to twenty.-one? ie fixe I upon as the perio I of' lilfe when a citizen conlttii le1i tleni. that they hal a perlect light to might be culled to the Executive chair —though sty (o tIhe Ic,' e will not, with yorcon- in the maitter of resideuce, he was for requiring fent, a!low you to elect a Governor, until he i.- more than one year. t:ii.iy yeis of' ae, because you tnay elect one Mr. SHEPAitD didl not approveof the amend. wititout experience."'' The constitution had rr.ent ofthe gentleman from bt. Lawrence, though been likene.l to a ship at so'a, an] he apprehen. it was a step, and a consilerable step nearer his deJ every prudent man, belore he \ ent a long mode of thinking on this question, thian that of voyaae, would ascertain whethet his vessel was any other mnember. He was for st, iking out this seaworthy. tie hoped the constitntional amend- second section entirely. He would impose no nients to, be adopted wotild be prudently weig e.l restriction whalever on the choice of the people, an I wisely matured. lie thought the anien]. He did not go the length of his colleague (Mr. ment of the gentleman froit E-sex, dictated by HUN.T,) in supposing that the people had no sound wisdom, anlie he hoped it would be adopt. right by concert an] agreement, to impose on ed. themselves such restrictions as they might see Mr. BROWN remarked that there was no dif- fit. We were not driven to take either that po. ference it principle between the two pending sition or the opposite. Mr S..aw a timetiumn propositions-the one requirel a five years resi- ground that could be safely taken-and that was dence-the other, one. It was therefore a ques- the proper ground. It was unwise for the peotion of time entire'y. If one of thein was a lim. pie to restrict themselves in their choice of their italion of the rights of the sovereign people, so immediate representative, as ti.eGovernor was. was the other. He woull require a longer resi. In proposlngr that they shoull this limit them. dence than the one year; anl it' that were to he selves, gentlemen seemed to fear:hat they rtmight tilhe ter.n, lie preferred ntot to put it in the form judge unwisely. But it' they had not the c-'pain which it was presented-for all knew that city and intelligence to select their immediate thiere were no more emharrassing questions at representative, they certainly had not the capathe polls than this qualification of residence- city an I intelligence to -ovcr-n themselves throujgh que-lions growing out of the fact of the voter their representatives-and whatever the prac. havin-, been abroa.l, in a distant part of the tice of other 4tates may have been in this reworl 1, during the year. lie would have no such spect, the argument drawn t'om this pracquestion rai-ed on the election of a Governor, tice proved too much. Every thing was not in. lar the Ita4t shadow ol doubt as to his qualifica trinsically right that had the sanction of nnifirtit tions unler' the constitution, to administer the practice. The question ought not to be here, governnent. As to the i lea of limiting the sove- whether evil had arisen out ol the present sys. reigui power of the people in this matter, it had tem. The enquiry should be, is i' intrinsically been well met by the gentleman from Allegany right? The fallacy of the other reasoning hal.1 (Mr. ANGEL.) \Ve required a person to be 21 been shown in several notable instances When before tie coull biutl himself by contract. Herice the colonies were driven to take up arms again't it was proposed not to permit him to do an act in Great Britain, Dr. Johnson wrote a very able the name or on behalf of the people, without pamphlet, called " taxation, no tyranny" —in some limitation as to age. Where wax the dis. which lie insisted that the colonies must'be tax tinction, or the reason for a distinction between ed in some form, and therefore there was no. the two cases t As to the limitation of age, he evil in the then system of taxation-overlooking was not so clear. The capacity or ability to altozether the principle involved. So in the case discharge th, functions of Governor, did not he- of the levy of ship-money on John Hlanmp lei — long to any perio.l of lile. It was by no means there was nu~ practical evil resulting ifrom it, fur well settle I at what pero:id the human intellect Hamplen was a man of wealth-but the hall' of iwas in its best vigor. He woultl not therefore that tax paid, would have made his children presriibe 30 years —he woaud leave,some latj- slayes; forever. The argument, he repeate.l, itu le there, for sorne men possesseI more vi gor that no evil had arisen out tlthis, wasiintrinsi. of intel ect at 25 than at'any; future peri4.. If eally unso0Qn. True, the I S. estitlution Ihad Mr. Clay had fit been trtisrelntr e se took9 hih qualfiljtiioaonhf age TidC iia seat in thei~aai ftli M. f Ih. lon i. orh b r was ma,. ls tri: that P tdtt a wans aot 15o chosen directly by the people,' but through, press my alarm at the spirit evinced in the course thle electoral colleges. S~enators of the Unittd oif heise (1i5cus~iofls. It is of' very little civiwe&fates, (S whouia the sanie qualification -was re. qitenc to be nr anling Iiypotht tical (jutettiosq uireJ, were chosen by the state legislatures;que.,tion[) that have not arisens in ti e pi errcial taut in the selectioin Of rei~resentatives, chosen operatioins, oit our guVernuientl fllt a quni ttr of Th directly by the people, the principle did not np. century. hfere we are, entering tan the fifth ply. True, we wanted a Governor whou knew week ol the sessioan. sjiewnlitz_ daiy after day in t:.e want., of' the people; but who knew better 1ehiate, ayd doiing notlhitig. WVhy sit hi re delia. their ownt wants ant Iwishes than tlie people ing, imaginary questi;oiis- que.*tionis 11-lhat oe th miselves, an I who to choose to efflect their nit arisen finat I kniow ol'. any wI ~ere if) the obje-is? Mr. S. here spoke of' Mr Simmos-S' sate.? U'liat is the spirit e —iiiad by tbis itillicnf nl~ushan to ]Daniel O'Connitell, as being depreca. ant] thle tenor ora this. drealO. it is a spir-t Its ullu tory of' the election ol' such a man for Governor. laiwn an] destriay. It is thant non aist wshich I rise. Mr. SUIMMONS did not. deprecate it. XWtre Go to thle constitution oft tic U. S.. "and you M-r O'Comiiell here, hie would vote lfar him. Ilie will find thant ntir ancestors. na lay1 of them born cunsihlerelI him more conservative than a great i i a, lloreiauj c-iunlry? lixe 1I 3. it nar ol age, and nanny others, lie could naiaie. 14 yeatis' resilcince bor tihe prs'i etideya Waos tliere Mr. SHEPARlD supposed Mtr O'Connell was not discretion therc? Were thet mc n fimnes-s acid omit of' the tue quez-tion, at aiiy rate, being now protiwiety? Had they not lived u'dctr a nm-ianr. in the seie aii-l yellow leaf; an] wiere it other. chiaih goo eranment. and tinier royal oficthcer? Did Uis ie, thtare wvere too many candidates liar Guy. they mat kitow aiid undertiatid tme whltoh ques. crnor this sidle, to think of imporuhig one fium tiols? Did they riot applreciate tile imuportaince the Other. As to the apprehen-sion or doubt cx. otI aeunading against tindue influences, to pro. presse I by tiis other colleague (Mr. MoRalis) vide aeain:4 contingencies iii a iniftier where hie least some ratraner should comie amlongr us oti thle people could iiit aeview and recontsiatet? It is a eve (alan election, and durang somie tImportant 2reat aln I 'niportant. priticiiile, this poster of'rec a vatss, and carry a way the hearts- of the laco. consade.antioti. Why do 3oui sir, Ipjintitiitg to isle by his wiunitier eloq~uence, onad actually he. the Chanirmian) bitud that sent as chaiimati ofl coeGte~ouidrtel Ilgn temmn this conitnittet? It is titati, we ma y Lave tlie ad. -Mr. S. sail, there were so insuity circuinstan. vaintage Of a doulal. conside-ratiota-thant prapo. ces that tauist conspire to bring about such a re. sitioti,- Inn' lie suhmitted here, deliated freely suit, that thle i lets stuck him strangelv. 'rhe in committee of' the whule, liast impalressions olperation miust all take iplace in onie cJay, it' at tioured lorth. no intle takcttii It ich is olhagaE. all, or tue eillervescence might he over. The iory-,-no %eas naid nays, but at free In ter. ballots must be printed and diqftributed. The chatige and compnlarisoti o; oplinifitas-so that regular can lidates must withdraw, there must wvuen- we come into time laouse, we iiay VOt.? be some ganeral concert of' action, and a great more understa-nditagly anal(leirteyuna miany thvings taust transpire wvhich never did calm view of' 11w case. In tlae conistitutin yout transpire in a day or two, to bring about such a provide liir a senate an]i asseiiil~ly. niad some. result. Mr. S. insisted, that where the people timies you provide that bills louehinLa revenuec aicted directly in thme chatice of' a representative, shall criginate only int ttie i opltttr brattich.no safer rule could be adopted than to leave( Why alinlith se restriclitons? Atid thetn. slier the theati flee to choose whom they pleased. Thet lulls lanve passsed, there i~as youtr etantictl of re. people kno(Witig their own wanats and wishes, I vii, t' yu xcutive, tat apparove cr and the occasion that demanded it, could betterjI disapp~rove oit what tias been dutie. Is this Welea their representative, than we could possi. te invasiotl of Ljiberty?-of thiat Liberty bly ilirect their choice, however wiasely we which I hope we miay all live long to el jr'y?1 saiaht adjust these limitations, lint how Jis itwivih indfiviahuals? Will y-cla frt M~r.. 'I ALLMADGE:I sir, have sat silent tae protnise to pay Ihe debt of a thiird persponl thtus liar Ill tile proure-ss of' these daseussonIS', No, says the law, you muftst reduce it to %% r ting and in a great measure duritng thle progress olf or it s-lanil not be Oblhigatory. What s r. deny tatisinea-s hera'. My strength and energies haselI my tiiht to do this! U are yost so in' ade nay bet a sea er-ely taxed bay this dut~es 1 Impose;nIhb'lta antisiim.)O)i1't a rae tay this body. I sir, have arrived at ant a.e~ cIIitId Or Fri eni? NTO, says the ha w. We culitiel nail minailer tircuiwitaita es that leave me nothiiig you ho pttt it ini writing, under hand and seal, to stay tuo Baatcombe. Ant I feel no interest in wtines.;ed hay three -isiat sss sigtaira, in haressthis contttoversy save what every citizen ostgirct to ence (il' tlie le-.tator an!] oal' each, utlier-ur else feel iii a titan Ltar wvhtchet in% talves reatotehy cerainly your da-ed is voi~l. Whiy this cautioll. but to a priilcila'e. My hot is cast; nay desthimy is limited; secueni dtie deliberation and care itt tilipurtait til I yhteihat r sou hu.t a young taitn oal 20. lie Go. transaictiotas of' private lifle? And why not vernor, or adiiit the tcall taaii, oaf 70. is a qalestin a uanke parovision to secure lihe same prtaldaat c. mu. in whicht hers': tiahhy I have rio aitferest. I hiave tion when weeomme to chinose a cidtel 'agihat altt? saut still under thme haape thiat sotie gentleman Plant hiese checks in thle eonhliluiio'l; or anther wull0. say what I woulil like tua hear said. Jiut do not etadicate tha~se whicht have lieuit p)ut nut hu'mirimie it. I venture to miake a Jew re. there. andh loojnu toa wom k well, lie that gelse, to innairs inI this subaject. Sir, thie hlarticailar qaes. ptill tap these poststrand hatuhmarls~will iaevu. r fmill twitoat uler cotisideistion is whether your G;ov. mne his companion. I canine here lay Order alfthue ernor Shalt lie 30 y ars of'agena td 5 years a resi. people of a county that- in nlly youth neser f'aaled de~nt of' the state. 'I~lint is time great qatestioti nie. when mhey ttmouelht it %%onhd gratily tue to )ieiding. Icare %seiy lithle whic'h way it lake part in thle coutatil# of thie sitate or- amaion). g~es. jjUt I 'rise to euter my ljrottt ahid Wv CX. They comraaadd w.t to Come litre because they 151 kanw 'hat at my adranc'el age they coull rely on me lo utter w.thout fear what I thoul.ht. an I t, d,~ wtiat I thought right. To allude to a ri'cinlt tit t tr ity way of illu-tration: I am not o ec uf taose who are will ng to absent them. se;l'es cegularly ftom t Ile s-ltings of' h s body onl SuaturJy, anid periaps oil the following lr~l;a), and yet Ia or to recor, my naine, on a ca I of thle syes and noes afirmaltielty for an ope.i ad o tinmen'. Turn over all these things, aiid s.e if it is not better lo come back to call" coanl I e.ale rea.rcn. My tonstiltients sernt me hli r to amend tile constitulion. I Iroutght with mi —we all brouight our tol~s along-our FOdItiering antl caulking tools amciong ot ers-to see it' tle vessel of state may nol need repairingil a leak was lound here, to jtaci it nlnd mend i;-o! l concllissitrn lie n- to examine the hulk thoroui tly. anJ repair where we find it necessary. I come here to help men I the co'!sitlu. lian. but what have we been antocl? lHave we d~eedn ~cn I ng tile constitutlon, or have we wi h reckless hanhl, been pullnaig it dowin? I as ift' the tenor of Ilie resolutions offeredl hire anil referred to committees. pIco'osicgr to amend the ccnslitution, will not alarm a calm an I considerate p)eple, who want quiet, hnpI' ncs, annd a;:ood, and s'able gro'ernmen;? Sir. in ilty agr.r-u;lural pursuit-, if I senJ my wagon to tice murichan i' to ien. I, and lie keel, it awhile. amic at his caprice breaks it up) anl uses it or,il.l —an.1 senls tie back in dice ticme a new watun —is there a bench in the s'ate or Un'on tlhat woul.l say hat I am bound lt, take it or tc~ iay for it? I employed hiiii not to destroy-I co.incmiis oned Iim to mend.to for'ifl' amid correct. ''ht relbre I rise here to tlhank my frienJ. the chairman of committee nunmbher live, who Las:i.tle this report, focr aJopting as fir as lie could, the ol.1 constitution. To that I declare miy adhesion, subject only to such amenmndments here and there, as the peop e have suggested or ureed. I came not to destroy, but to repair. An I where are we at the begeiining of the fiftlh week of the session? We have got through one short section. declaricn in eflect that we will t.ave a Go-ernor and I.ieut. Governor.We have partly passed —'or we are in commit. tee of' the who!e. where no final vote is taken — ontie single section with three lines in it, pre. cisely as it stood in the old const.tution. I ani rainied to see this. With my friend from Columubia Mr. JoRD N) whom I am proud to en(dirse-and with my frien I from Ontario (Mr. NicrnOLs), whom I am also proud to endorse — I came here to repair, not to destroy I feel that it is out of our commiss;i n to pull to pieces t.,is who!e instrument. Far be it froli me, sir. to pretren I to any special devotion to that port;on of the civilized world called-the people of t.i, Union. I have no humci ity to profess —no declarations of love andl ccnhdence to make he.e —except that I believe they are disposed to stan I by what is right, and I have no ap;'rehension but what they will ultimately leci-le right. Now. sir. looking back to the Convention which framed the constitution of the Union. we find that they proceeded with caution an.I prudence-anl so far as the Presi. dent was concerned, prescribed certain qualifi. catioas of age and residencc. We sec that our constitution of 1321, prescribed 30 years of ace nd hive years residence for a Gove nor. Sha!l we hastily pull away these lannmarks, whic'h experience lhas shtowcn tl. be in no way incon. venient or eimbarrassing, an I with wthicti nio. body has foun-l fault? It is painful' to ume, sir, toarcue this question, which I regard as onie of jurisdiction. It is not in my commiccssicn. We were ser:t here to relpair dtefects-to examine an I search out the detective spcts to wheich the people have directed our. ttentirn. as necessary to be imade good, and more effectually to sc. u e the welfare itl' all. Do this, end We shall t.n.t our wo k short. Let us go to work with uninimnily and diligence utpon the spots which i.ave been pointed to as detective. ani leave lihose which have not been a subject of' genenl ca-im. plaint as they are. In re'ation to religious freedom, for instance, will any man be (lisp, sed to disturb the article on that subject? Este. cialtv after the prayer that all of us listened to the other day, from that desk (poiiiting io the Speaker's chair) - thank!inr. God for Itis man. i1ol mercies, and especially for the privilege common to us all of' worshipping the true God, or iany gods, or nro aod at all! Our lii erly is inlee I great in this and other respects. Let us see that we do not abuse it An I yet. sir. the valuab'e article gicarantying sonie ofi these rights is too restrictive fobr those who clocit waint to be asked as a witness, as to their ac. countabilily. I enter my solemn an. oplen Iro. test against this destructive, Ifort at pulling dowcn. A great misl:otune. -ir, it is. that the legislature which passed the law (a'ling this Convention, did not point specifically to those parts of the constitution wlhich they charged us to amend-but that not having been dlone, It is our duty to repair lhe error by confining our. se'ves to those parts of the inslrum) had given them an illustration in reference to' the war of 1814. They did certainly undertake to assert it. He would refer to the case of Mr. Laurens, who was sent to Holland to negotiate a loan, and being taken on the high seas, was taken to England to be tried for treason. He was there confined in the tower, but they did not dare to execute him. They knew they must abandon the right to claim perpetual allegiancer and that the execution of that distinguished man for such an assumed crime would have been re. garded with horror by the whole civilized world. Mr. B. desired to advert toanother fact. The constitution of the U. S. confers on Congress the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization; and what does that mean? Are theserules of law nugatory? Are they mere idle forms and ceremonies? Congress has exercised this constitutional power from the first to the present day, and if it be the principle of the common law, how shall the laws so passed be interpreted by the courts of law? Were they to call upon the citizens of other countries to take the oath of allegiance to our government, and then declare to them in the face of that declaration, that thir 200 doctrine of perpetual allegiance was a principle of the common law? Why that would be an absurdity. It cannot be maintained for a single moment. Why, it would not alone affect the citizens coming from other countries-it would affect our own population emigrating to South America, California, and elsewhere. The inhabitants of the Western states, who are there aiding in the establishment of a free government, are in great part from other countries.When this government treated with them for the lands they hold, did it tell them that their allegiance to the government from which they came, was perpetual, and could not be severed? No, they were treated with, and aid and countenance was given to them, as to persons possessing an independent power, and they became in fact parties to the compact existing amongst the peo. ple of the republic. Whenever a question shall be presented to the U. S. supreme court fairly and fully on this subject, he had no doubt that its decision would not be in the face of the legisla. tion of this country for the last seventy years. He thought it was due to our naturalized citizens and to the country itself that this question should be definitely settled, and settled soon. Mr. PATTERSON should not have trespassed again on the attention of the committee, but for remarks made by others in relation to what he had heretofore said-and gentlemen would bear witness that he had thus far, at least, acted on the principle which he had prescribed to himself, to speak only to the pending question. If he departed from that rule now, it was because he had been driven to it by others. Mr. P. denied that he had taken the ground imputed to him, that the people had no right to impose restrictions on themselves. He did say in regard to the restriction upon the choice of the people for Governor, that he would not impose any. But whilst on that point Mr. P. said nothing about the people restricting themselves.When a general proposition came up, recommending restrictions in regard to other officers, he would give the matter due consideration, and Wvote as his judgment dictated-but at present he should say nothing beyond what related to the matter in hand-the qualifications for Governor. But he had been complained of, among others, as having made an unfair attack on the report of committee number five. Mr. P. had said nothing in reference to it, except that he presumed the committee could not have fully considered the subject, or they would not have retained the word native. But in that he was contradicted by the gentleman from Orleans (Mr. PENNIMAN), who asserted that everyword and letter of it had been fully considered and agreed to by the whole committee. And yet a wonderful change seemed to have come over that gentlenLan at least-for it was but yesterday he confessed that this term native was an odious one, and he was willing it should be struck out. Mr. PENNIMAN intended to say that others regarded it as odious. But the drift of his re. - marks was in favor of sustaining the word na. tive, and if the gentleman from Chautauque or I any other gentleman would give him the oppor-. tunity, he should vote to retain it. [A voice, I " 11 give you the opportunity."] < Mr. PATTERSON said if he misunderstood, the gentleman, so did the reporters-that the committee unanimously agreed to the report. Mr. PENNIMAN had never yet said a word as to the veto power-but there were those who knew that he and one other member of the committee did not agree to that part of the report.In other respects, all agreed to it. Mr. WORDEN:-Is not the gentleman's name appended to the report? It's a little too late to say now that he does not agree to it. Mr. PATTERSON took the report of the gentleman's remarks in the Argus-and he be. lieved those reports were considered good reports-fair reports. In the Argus of this morning the gentleman was reported as having characterized the word native as an odious qual. ification-but whether he intended to say that it was odious in the eyes of the Convention or of the committee No. five, Mr. P, would not say. It was enough that he found the word in a report signed by Mr. PENNIMAN and others, and which purported and was said to be unanimous. As to the gentleman from Saratoga, (Mr. PORTER)-another member of committee No. five, Mr. P was exceedingly gratified to hear him this mrorning-for that gentleman had furnished a very conclusive illustration of the position that a man under 30, was at least qual. ified to make a most admirable speech-and against restricting the people in regard to qualifications for Governor. But this gentleman had admitted in fact that the committee had not very thoroughly considered their report-inasmuch as he had himself propo. sed an amendment which changed the whole character of the report. But the gentleman from Orleans seemed to misapprehend the re. port himself-so far as related to residence. It did not require the governor to be a resident of the state, and in this respect was not as restrictive as the amendments of the gentleman from St. Lawrence and Onondaga (Messrs. RUSSELL and TAYLOR); for a resident of South Caroli. na, if he had formerly resided here five years, might under this section as reported, be gover. nor. And yet this was one of the sections that had been so fully considered by committee num. ber five, and unanimously concurred in! And one of the members of the committee (Mr. PORTER,) had actually come forward now with an amend. ment requiring a man to be a qualified elector and a resident of five years' standing! Another point, illustrative of the consideration bestowed by the committee on this report-this committee had nothing to do with this subject of qualifica. tion for office-that whole subject having been referred expressly to committee number 4, at the head of which was one of the delegates from Schoharie (Mr. BOUCK.) Mr. P. had but asin. gle remark to make, and that was in reference to the very able speech of the gentleman from Saratoga. Mr. P. was perfectly delighted with his flights of fancy and with a good deal of his argu. ment. But he had supposed that it was reserv. ed for the distinguished gentleman from Monroe (Mr. STRONG) to impugn the motives of members here, and that he alone was to have all the glory of that. But even the gentleman from Saratoga,in the heat ofdebate, must impugn the motives )f gentleman who took a different view of this subject from him-and insist that they did so be 201 cause they wanted to be candidates for office. Mr. P. left that matter with those gentlementrusting that no other gentleman would be found impugning the motives of those who disagreed with them in matters of this kind. But one oth. er remark of the gentleman from Saratoga required a word of reply. And that was this-that when that gentleman travelled out of his way to make an imputation against Mr. P.'s private character, as a man, as a citizen, as a husband and a father, Mr. P. threw the imputation back on him with contempt. Mr. PORTER begged to know to what re. mark ol his he referred as implying the slight. est imputation on the gentleman's private character? Mr. WORDEN: The gentleman from Sarato. ga might have spoken without knowing what he said-not only in reference to the gentleman from Chautauque, but to myself-for the gen. tieman threw out an imputation upon me that was never before thrown upon me by any respectable gentleman here or elsewhere. Mr. PORTER from his position in the house (remote from Mr. WORDEN at the time) did not hear the gentleman. Mr. WORDEN: (In his seat.) The gentle. man will hear from me in the course of this debate. Mr. PORTER: I am ready for the gentleman from Ontario now or hereafter. As to the gentleman from Chautauque, he entirely misunderstoo,d me. I spoke of' his admiration for the sex in jest, as did the gentleman from Oncndaga (Mr RHOADES) the other day. I supposed the admiration he spoke of was mutual-no. thing more. Mr. PATTERSON: I amwilling to take the explanation. But the manner of the remark, if misunderstood by me, was also mistaken by others. And I have only to say that an insinu. ation of that kind will never be made here or elsewhere, against me, by any man, without calling down on that man the expression of such feelings as I entertain for persons of that character. I am content if the gentleman did not mean more than he'has explained. But he was extremely unfortunate in his language, it he did not mean to convey a direct charge on me, en. tirely different from anything implied in the remark of the gentleman from Onondaga. I sup. posed the gentleman intended a direct attack on me, and no man shall do that without hearing from me. I am happy, however, to learn that the gentleman did not intend it. Mr. RHOADES. I did not allege that the gentleman from Chautauque admired the sexbut only intimated that they admired him. [A laugh.] Mr. PORTER. I trust the gentleman from Chautauque, as a gentleman, will accept the explanation I made-for it never entered my mind to make an imputation on the gentleman's private character, ot any nature whatever. He entirely misunderstood me, and I hope he is satisfied that no such design was entertained by me. Mr. PATTERSON was satisfied with the explanation. But he would say, that the reason why he supposed that he was not mistaken was because the gentleman previously reiterated the charge of the gentleman from Monroe that his course here was taken for the purpose of getting votes. Mr. RHOADES said as he should be governed in his vote by different views from some others, and as he should not occupy much time, nor say any thing calculated to provoke debate, he felt authorized to say a few words in explanation of his position He should vote against all the amendments to this section, and against the whole section in the position in which it stood here. And this he said with the greatest respect and veneration for committee No. 5-a ve. neration which he felt the more perhaps from his proximity to the chairman of that commit. tee, and particularly to the gentleman from New Orleans-[A laugh] Orle ans he meant (Mr. PENNIMAN)-it having been so fully evinced en a recent occasion, that that gentleman was capable of administering such sharp, severe and caustic rebukes to all who saw fit to dissent from any part of this report. He had a personal motive for it also-for it had come to his ears that at the time when that gentleman was dealing with others, he had a rod in pickle for himself (Mr. R.)-but that in the gentleman's anxiety to reach the whales and leviathans here, he forgot to draw out the rod.intended for the smaller fry. [Laughter.] Mr. R. therefore now said, if he had luttered any thing, or should, in derogation of committee No. 5, tnat he wished in advance, to take it all back. [Renewed laughter.] He should vote against this section because it did not belong here, and not because it imposed restrictions on the people-if that position had not been already given up. Doctrines had been advanced here on that point which he could not subscribe to. He did not believe that we were sent here, or that it was any part of our duty to say that no restrictions should be imposed on the people themselves.They had sent us here for that very purpose.The very constitution that we were sent here to consider and amend, and under.which in the main the people were living and submitting to, was full of these restrictions. The very preamble of that constitution spoke of the instru. ment as a rule of government-a word which in itself implied restrictions. Without them there could be no sound or wholesome government. So the constitution vested the legislative power in a senate and assembly —excluding the people at large from the exercise of that power. So as to Executive and judicial powers-and there was scarcely a section, certainly not an article in the constitution, in which some restrictions were not imposed on the people. He rearetted to hear the remark thrown out here the other day, that whatever restrictions the people might think proper to place on themselves, in the constitution, there were times when they would not regard them. Mr. R. did not believe this The history of this state did not furnish an instance that could justify the remark. That the constitution may have been violated by the legisla. ture-that other constitutions had been some. times violated to some extent by Executives, who undertook to construe it as they understood it, and not as expounded -by the judiciary, -could not be denied-but they never had been violated by the people-nor did he be. 202 Lieve they ever would. Submit to the people a constitution, be it what It might, whether char. acterized by the largest or the smallest liberty, and when they once adopted it, his word for it, they would adhere to it, until abrogated by the same formalities by which it was enacted. But if the people were really adverse to having any restrictions on themselves, and we believed that to beso, our plain duty was to abrogate the constitution entirely and go home, leaving matters to go on without law. IIe did not vote against this motion because it restricted the people-tor he believed that the people felt the importance of restraints, and would cheerfully submit to them, as necessary to the preservation of real and substantial liberty. And as with the people, so with individuals. Every common sense man started in life under the conviction that he must restrain his natural appetites and passions -and as far as he did this, he became a good member of society. But he went against the section because it was in the wrong bill. He went against it also because, as all admitted, it would be ofno practical use. Even those who were for retaining it,did so not because they supposed the people would not select competent men for Governor-but to avoid any possible mistake of that kind, and to preserve and conserve some remnants of the old constitution, and from a feeling of veneration for it. Indeed, there was a remarkable degree of unanimity on this subject-all being satisfied that it would make little difference whether the section was retained or not. He was opposed to it also because it did not go far enough-and were not such as the people would demand, if they felt any necessity of restricting themselves on the subject. If you were to assemble a Convention of plain, practi. cal, intelligent men in the country, without reference to party, and having only in view the selection of a good candidate, Mr. R. believed they would say first that he should be a man of natural, sound and intelligent mind, of good moral character, of good education, thoroughly versed in the principles of our government, and in the constitution of the country, of good health and constitution, with the physical ability to discharge his whole duty-whether as admiral of the navy or commander of the militia-with the physical power to endure the climate of 54, 40 or that of the Rio Grande. Mr. R. did not know whether they would require him to be exactly thirty to a day, or to be a resident of five years, to a day. He thought not. Mr. RICHMOND: Would you not have him honest too? You've not got that in. Mr. RHOADES:-That was a matter of course. Honest, wise and intelligent men would of course select an honest man, as well as capa. ble, when not overborne by party influences or party demagogues. With these views he regarded the section as entirely unnecessary and of no practical utility; and however much discernment an I intelligence there might be here, he did not believe that we contained all there was of it in the state, or that there was not still enough lett amona the people to enable them to judge rightly in this matter of qualificatioas. But he did hot mean to say that he would not vote for a section prescribing general qualifications for otfic, when proposed by the proper oommittee. There was no necessity certainly of making the governor an exception, at this time particularly, when the feeling was to strip him of all the power an l patronage which gave the office consequence. But a section prescribing the qualifications of all officers, might be well enough; and he would vote for a sound and sensible provision of that character-not because he believed there was any absolute necessity for it, but because it was perhaps our duty to express to our constituents what he believed to be some of the requisite qualifications for office But such a section would be rather an ornamental than a practical part of the constitution. He hoped however there would be something in them. Perhaps this section would do tolerably well for committee number 5. But it was extremely diluted.The principles of homeopathy had been applied to it, and perhaps it might be diluted still more. Now, it was an infinitisimal dose of con. servative restriction on the popular will, to be put in merely for the sake of the name-and as such he was not disposed to vote for it. Mr. RICHMOND adverted to the very common practice of gentlemen here, opening their speeches with professions and that they did not mean to occupy attention but a very few minutes-and yet passing fiom point to point, with a word only on each, untl they had inflicted very long speeches upon the body. Mr. R. would only promise not to speak more than fif. teen minutes, perhaps not that. Nor did he mean to pursue an argument that had been long aao exhausted utterly-though he might say not without one good result. Gentlemen had taken their positions here as to reform, and we should know where to find them hereafter. Men of talent and influence had come out warmly in fa. vor of reform on this particular question-and so warmly that he promised himself that when we came to matters of real and engrossing importance. he should find them as ready to go with him then, as they were upon this comparatively trivial question-a question which though magnified into one of great importance and as a test of the dispositions of gentlemen in regard to reform, he regarded as one of mere expedi. ency, and one which the people had not agitated, except perhaps so far as regarded the word native. That word was properly struck out, in his judgment. But not so with the qualification of age, as he thought. Not that he regarded it as a restriction on the people-for if he did, he should vote against it-but as a restriction on demagogues who controlled nominations, and to promote their own selfish purposes. And a nomination, as all know, generally carried with it the party vote —for there were few-very few - men who had the nerve or the strength of reso. lution and character to make head against a party nomination, and very few who could be found to sustain a person in such a stand against his party. As an indication therefore of the temper of this body in regard to reform, he re. garded this discussion as all-important-as it indicated strongly that the feeling which existed to strike out a clause which the people never asked to have struck out, would continue when we came to reforms which the people had de. manded beyond mistake. For himself, though a friend of real refor, he should vote for 5 and 203 30. [A voice-" 54 40 too?"] Yes, 54 40 too. Mr. WORDEN said he should not have risen now, but for remarks made during this debate, which he felt it his duty to answer. And hence he felt it to be his right to ask indulgence whilst he did so. He should not undertake to argue this question-because from the opening of this debate, he was satisfied that no argument sound in itself, resting on just principles, would probably have influence here. This question was not to be decided in his opihion by the force of argument or the force of reason. Mankind had not yet become so enlightened as to be free from all influences of education, the force of habit, or the controlling power of prejudice. And since 'he formation of this government, national as well as state, although there were admitted to be great and leading fundamental principles connected with civil liberty-there had been great difficulty in giving them full application to the affairs and condition of men. True the great charter of American liberty declared that all men were created free and equal, and were endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights-no one possessing higher rights or any special or peculiar privileges over another - Though these great principles were recognized, yet there had been great difficulty in applying there to the condition of mankind in this country. We had seen from the very formation of the national and state governments, a class of men, some of them proceeding on grounds reasonable to themselves, who had denied to the people the exercise of full, equal, political rights. They had declared it essential and necessary, in regard to the elementary, sovereign powers to be vested in the people, that it should be curtailed -that there should be some artificial rule or test by which the exercise of that power should be determined. We began by applying this principle to the elective franchise.The notion prevailed that we must retain in the machinery and structure of our government, a body to represent the aristocracythe landed interest-that we must have a senate that should be a permanent body-its constituency to be the wealthy or the landed interestand that should check the caprices or whims of the popular will. That idea seemed to have been exploded in the minds of some gentlemen. So in regard to the elective franchise, it was long the idea in this state, that all men were not to be permitted to enjoy that right-that its exercise must depend on one of these accidental circum. stances-that a man must be the owner of a cer. tain piece of land before he should exercise the sovereign right to vote for senator. That idea had been exploded. But yet men had not given up the principle on which that idea was based. These oil habits and prejudices were still cling. ing to them, and they had brought them hereand their very arguments in favor of these restrictions, were the arguments that had ever been put forth in restraint of popular liber. ty. It was the last expiring effort of dying old Federalism that we saw here laboring to incorrate into this constitution this exploded idea, as to the exercise of popular power. Now, he declared here, that not one gentleman ha4 spokern; ia favor of these retriictioas, who had made an argument that could not be refuted in the comn. mon school house, in any common school district in the land. He asserted it here, that nothing approaching the dignity of an argument had been put forth in that quarter-and this question, he apprehended, was not to be deci. ded on the ground of argument, but by these old prejudices that clung to members here. Some argued gravely and long that we must have these restrictions, or else we might have some raw boy of the north for Governor. Mr. W. wondered the gentleman had not said some uneducated Jon. athan. That was the argument, and it was put as if with sensible men, it would carry weight. But we heard from the same gentleman )ester. day, that we must have these restrictions and checks against raw boys, lest the educated son of' some rich man, from our colleges, might force himself into the gubernatorial clair! Now, his friend, when he had a cause in hand, never in. volved himself in these absurdities. He had argued here from his prejudices, his habits of education and thinking, rather than from principles or from facts. The gentleman from Chau. tauque (Mr. MARVIN) said we must have this in the constitution, or forsooth the President of the United States, if' he had a boy, would send that boy into this State, and by the power of Ex. ecutive patronage might cause him to be elected Governor, and by this means subvert the liberties of the State! That was an argument presented to grave men, assembled to form a constitution for two and a half millions of people! And yet that argument was listened to here as if it were potent and convincing! We were told that we must put in these restrictions or else an incom. petent man would be elected. But had they pro. posed to apply the same rule to any other officer of your government? To the supreme court judges or the chancellor, who had twice the pow. er over the interests and welfare of the people of the Governor? Not at all. Until the gen. tleman from Saratoga (Mr. PORTER,) found him. self involved in an absurdity-gentlemen had not talked about the Lieutenant Governor, who, the day after his election might be Governor. Nor had they guarded against incompetency from age, but had left men eligible who perhaps had none of the powers of their former selves to dis. charge official duties. But Mr. W. had wan. dered from his purpose. He did not intend to argue this question. He proposed mainly to an. swer some-he knew not what to call themsome remarks which fell from the gentleman fiom Saratoga. And he did not know but he might answer something that fell from the mem. ber from Monroe (Mr. STRONG.) The former, after commenting on what Mr. W. said, undertook to read him a lecture, and to inlorm him that gentlemen who mounted hobbies were likely to be thrown. Mr. W. was much obliged to the young gentleman for the admonition. Mr. PORTER made no application of that remark to the gentleman, but expressly stated that the gentleman had argued the question with ability and fairness. Mr WORDEN knew the gentleman made that remark; but after reviewing what he call. ed his argument, he pasted immediately to the admonition alluded to. r. RPOQRT'ER, if th gentlean wished to 204 have the remark applied to him, had no objec. tion. But if he desired to know the fact, he re. peated that his remark followed a reference to an argument which he stated was not used by the gentleman. Mr. WORDEN presumed the gentleman did understand precisely what he meant himself.But Mr. W. would say to that young gentleman that he had not been in the habit of riding hob. bies, neither did he know how to manage them. He had known but one way to public lavor or consideration, either in public or private lifeand it might be well for the gentleman in the outset of his career, to turn his attention to itand that was by a high-minded, honorable and ingenuous course of conduct. If by that course heretofore, Mr. W. had secured the esteem of his fellow-citizens, he was grateful for it. If a continuance in that course, should secure to him any greater amount of that esteem, he should be equally grateful. But he should neither mount hobbies, nor be deterred from advocating here or elewhere any principle which he deemed sound and just in itself, whatever impression that course might make on the public mindwhether ifvorable or unfavorable. It had been his misfortune to stand up there and advocate measures against the public sentiment of the day. He did not then flinch from what lie thought his duty. He should not now. He had had sharp and bitter political contests on that floor with the gentlemen from St. Lawrence and Onondaga-but it was never his misfortune until now to have his motives aspersed, or his arguments impugned by the charge that they were intended to effect political objects. much less for selfish purposes.That had been reserved for the gentleman from Monroe (Mr. STRONG.) If the remarks which fell from that gentleman had fallen from a high-minded and honorable man, Mr. W. would have felt the force of the rebuke. It they had fallen from one who had never pandered to popular prejudices on the floor of the legislative hall-Mr. W. should have mistrusted that in some unguarded moment he might have rendered himself obnoxious to the charge. If they had fallen from a man who had never truckled to low and vulgar prejudices-Mr. W. should have been apprehensive that he was liable to the aspersion. And so also, had they fallen from a man who had never, even on that floor, appealed to the popular prejudices that he supposed rested in the bosoms of members here, and endeavored to array the lay members against the legal profession. But he would tell that gentleman, and the gentleman from Saratoga, that he did not believe it necessary for him, at this day, to undertake to speak merely with a view to popular favor. He trusted he had been too long before his constituents, and too long in the discharge of public duty, to make it iiecessa. ry, even it' he desired the honor which they charged him with aspiring to, to undertake to speak disingenuously or contrary to his convictions, any where. But he could tell both gentle. men whatone of them would not say in his place -that he knew of no political office that the peo. ple of the state could confer on him, that he would accept. His public life was ended with this Con. yeanon, so far as iI preseat and firm purpose was concerned-and he knew ofno consideration, of no contingency that could arise, that would ev. er induce him again to take a public political sta. tion. Mr. W. did not say this without warrant. It was not now for the first time spoken. There were those among the constituents of the gen. tleman from Monroe, who knew and had the evidence of this his firm determination in regard to this matter. A word as to another argument of the gentleman from Saratoga, who found fault with him because he said he would have been content to have let this section stand, as it pro. bably would, after the vote on the proposition of the gentleman from St. Lawrence had been taken. And the gentleman read him a lecture, and thanked God that he (LVr. P.) would never be guilty of the absurdity of allowing a provi. sion to stand which he thought objectionable.Why then did the gentleman assent to this re. port-yes and sign his name to it-which con. tained a provision that he now moved to strike out? Was it his intention to commit a Jraud on this body-to pass through it a provision which he did not himself approve? Why did he move to strike out the word native, after approving it by signing the report? Where was the gentleman's consistency? Where his boasted integrity in this respect? He either undertook to palm off on this body a clause which he did not approve, or to smuggle into the constitution a provision which he clung to and hoped might pass without comment or observation. The gentleman might take either horn of the dilem. ma. But Mr. WV. hoped the gentleman would consider this before reading him another lecture on consistency. Mr. W. was not indebted to the gentleman from Monroe or Saratoga for these imputations on his motives. The gentle. man from Orleans(Mr. PENNIMAN) branched out on this subject yesterday-charging him, and all others on his side of the question, with speaking for popularity. Mr. W. would do the gentle. man the justice to say that he did not fall into that error himself, and the reason for it was simply this, that his long speech yesterday was made up, witn the exception of some five lines, of praises of himself; and there was no room for praises of the "dear people," [laughter]. He had given us then a schedule o' his own good qualities-his high practical attainments and his peculiar fitness for his position here. Having taken on himself that labor, it was not to be wondered at that he did not allude to the " dear people," [renewed laughter]. Mr. W. regretted that this debate had extended thus far, be. cause it was calculated to give an impression to the public unfavorable to a propitious or for. tunate result to our deliberations-that we were frittering away the time-he would not say with senseless declamation —but with arguments and positions that carry with then their own want of force and application. But he hoped that the time wasted in this debate, the personalities it had engendered, would induce the Convention to pause and reflect, and go to the consideration of the great business before us with calmness and a proper sense of our re. sponsibilities to the present and to future gener. ations. Mr. STRONG remarked that the gentleman from Qatari habd lost his balance' to-da. He 205 makes a very bold attack on me (said Mr. S.) ciples and rules for the regulation of their con. If I have injured his feelings I very much re- duct-equally important and necessary was it gret it. I hope that my mentioning merely that forcommunities; for their liability to be led away it might be that the differ' nce between him and by passion or sudden impulses, was in no way his colleague on this question, was because he diminished by an aggregation of their numbers. might have an eye to the governorship, has not The contrary was generally the effect. The been the means of scaring him from the course. mass, it was generally understood, were much I had the best motive in doing so, and I have more liable collectively to be led away by tem. repeatedly said that he stood the prominent man porary excitements than this same number of for next Iall. And when I said that, I did it persons acting individually and separately.supposing he so understood it. I had no inten. True, no abuses could be pointed to show tion to injure his feelings or to drive him from the necessity of restrictions, and for the reasons the course, if he saw fit to take it, and the peo. that these restrictions had existed —because pie nominated him. But the language he uses- your state conventions, by whom candidates had I regret very much that he should have the ex- been brought forward, had been restricted to treme politeness to call my friend from Sarato- persons of a certain age and residence. Gentle. ga a gentleman and me a member. But I had men on the other side of this question had erred better bear tslat, than that he should lose his in supposing that Governor Tompkins was manners* It does not worry me in the least.- elected before he was 30 years of age. Mr. N. Nor do I view it as the opinion of that gentle. knew this was not the fact. Gov. Tompkins man, which upon a second sober thought he had he lived to this day, would have been 72.will retain In delivering his speech, I am sat. He was first elected in 1807. Gentlemen could isfied he has found relief, and will feel better. make their own calculations; but they would One word and I am done He arraigns my for- find that he was over thirty when first elected mer conduct-and says it is not the first time I Governor. But to advert for a moment to the have endeavored to array the lay members a- position of his colleague (Mr. WoRDEN) that gainst the profession. It' it was a crime in argument could have no effect here-that the 1840, to carry out, as we endeavored to, the minds ol those who differed with him on this will of the people, when petitions were here, question, important as all regarded it, were conthousands upon thousands, asking for reform in trolled by habit and prejudice. Mr. W. said our legal fees-that we advocated and passed a he regarded this, if correct, as one of the strong. law reducing fees-if that was arraying lay est positions that could be taken in favor ol his members against the profession, I may have own side of the question. For if men, selected been guilty of it sometime in carrying out the as we were, from every county in the State, to will of the people. If that is a crime, then am deliberate upon matters of the highest magni. I chargeable with crime. I did not suppose his tude and interest to the people of this State, feelings could have got so wrought utp, that he could be so far led astray by the force of habit would charge as a sin what I supposed to be or prejudice as to be proof against all argu. right and which the people sanctioned. If any ment,-if we could not be controlled by the body has been the first to touch that question, power of reason in the responsible duties de. and to array lay members against the profes- volved on us-what could we expect from the sion, it is he. I have done no such thing. But community at large. exposed as they might be to sir, when we get the report of this great com- temporary and controlling excitements. He remittee of thirteen, of which all expect so much, peated, his colleague had taken a position, we shall see where all of us stand. Nothing which if just towards this body, was a strong that the gentleman can say will deter me from and convincing argument in favor of self-imdoing my duty. posed restraints by the people on the exercise Mr. NICHOLAS said the question had been of their power. Adopt this doctrine, that the so fully discussed heretofore that he had not in- people should impose no restraints upon themtended to trouble the committee with any fur- selves-let the people adopt it, and they would ther remarks. But the debate had taken so wide soon commence a downwaid course, first to a range to-day that he felt called upon to anarchy, and then despotism. This had been advert to the views of one or two gentlemen.- in all former ages just the position in which ty. The gentleman from Onondaga (Mr. RHOADES) rants and usurpers had aimed to place a nation's expressed the opinion that the advocates of the power, in order to pervert it to their own corloctrine of self-imposed restrictions by the peo- rupt purposes. Spurning all restraints and ple had admitted that there was no necessity for scouting the idea of even self-control, the power these restraints. They did admit their entire of the people is just then in a state best adapted confidence in the capacity of the people for self. to their insidious designs; they then used and government-and that too in its broadest sense- moulded it to their own aggrandisement. Letgenbut not the admission imputed by this gentleman, tlemen who had advocated a repeal of these wise -hat Mr. N. had heard. They had not admitted and salutary restrictions reflect upon the history, ihe infallibility of the people. They were all the rise, the meridian and the decline of all past too strongly impressed with their own liability governments, especially the ancient republics; to err, and to have their reason influenced by and as patriots they must and would pause, and passion, to entertain such belief in the infalli- led by a common desire which he had no doubt bility of the people. Nor was there any thing actuated every member of this body to serve in this incompatible with confidence in the abil. faithfully and usefully our country, and perpetuity of the people to govern themselves. For if ate her free institutions, we should not impair as the gentleman admitted it was necessary for or enfeeble existing safeguards, but when prac..individuals in stting out ia lif to adopt prin. tieable and necessary strengtien and supprt 206 them. Mr. M. here alluded to the fact that though like all human institutions they were Gen. Washington, than whom perhaps no man necessarily imperfect; yet that so far as this required less of self-restraint, had laid down for state was concerned, our people had gone on his own conduct a series of rules, to which he prosperously and happily thus far-had made most rigidly adhered. He was a man of sense unparallelled strides towards national honor and -of principle. He knew his own weakness- greatness, and had enjoyed all the advantages his fallibility-his participation in all the frail. that could result from a practical application of ties of our race-and he had the foresight tb the true principles of government. And for one perceive the importance of fortifying himself he gloried in these American constitutions as against them in advance. And if there was any the consummation and embodiment of all those thing in the conduct of our people showing their great principles for which our fathers bled in capacity for self-government, it was the sense the revolution, and which were asserted at evinced by them of their own liability to err, Runnymeade, and in all the subsequent revoluand the provision made to fortify themselves tions in Great Britain. And whilst he would against it. The argument of the gentleman amend where amendments were necessary unfrom Oneida, (Mr. KIRKLAND,) yesterday, Mr. der the increasing wants, business and popula. N. said, though strong in the main in favor of tion of the state, he would preserve as much as self-imposed restrictions, was not so in its appli- possible of this venerated and cherished incation to thi. qualification as to age. The gen. strument. ir. H. closed with the remark that tleman assumed that the power intended to be under these views he should vote for the amend. restricted by this section was an elemental pow. ment proposed by the gentleman from Saratoga otr. But in practice, it was to a great extent a to-day-as being all that was necessary to meet delegated power. Mr. N. adverted to the man. objections to the section as it stood, or that the ner in which candidates for office were brought public sentiment demanded. forward, in practice-to the fact that it wasdone Mr. BRUCE had this suggestion to make to by delegated conventions, in the organization or the committee, that no gentleman should move composition of which, the great mass even of to rise and report until this question was dispos. one party had little or no personal agency-that ed of. In the early part of this debate, he made the proceedings of these bodies were generally up his mind how he should vote. But that was controlled by a few leading spirits, by whom so long since that he had forgotten how he de. every thing had been arranged beforehand- termined to vote. [Laughter.] If he did not and argued that these restr.ctions instead of vote as he then determined, he hoped gentlemen operating directly upon the elemental power of would consider that it was because he had forthe people, would operate rather as a check up. gotten how he was going to vote. [Renewed on the delegated power, if such it could be call. laughter ] He regretted this discussion. It ed, of these nominating conventions, or upon was a mere discussion on a question of tweedle those who controlled them. And in framing dum and tweedle dee. He did not care a cop. these restrictions, the general rule that experi- per whilh way it was decided. It was a ques. ence and the requisite qualifications were found tion in which the people felt no interest; but in those over 30, should govern, rather than the they did feel an interest in the labors of this exceptions that sometimes occurred. Nor did Convention, and they were calling on us to he regard the argument as having weight, that know why so much time was taken up in disthe restriction should apply to the old as well as cussing questions of so little importance. But the young-for the former had not usuall that if this debate was to go on, he suggested that it desire for the care and turmoil of office, that would answer all the purposes for gentlemen, in. was sometimes a passion with the young-nor stead of rising here and making speeches, to re. were old men the sort of candidates that politi- quest our reporters to read the speeches made cians preferred-being generally too inflexible the day before. [Laughter] —br the same and rigid in their opinions and views to make speeches were made over and over aga.n, day them the available candidates which politicians after day. Some gentleman had expressed an usually sought for. Now, in reply to his col. anxiety to proceed in our work and present a league's remarks imputing to members here a sound constitution to the people. Now this lingering adherence to the spirit of old federal. must be done soon, for if time had its usual ef. ism, and the doctrines of 98, Mr. N must be leet on our work, one end would rot before the permitted to say, that he thought valuable other was completed. [Laughter.] Again some lessons on the importance of maintaining state had argued warmly in favor of 30 years of age rights in all their just vigor, whether against for a governor. He ventured to say that if we the encroachments of the national or foreign went on at this rate, that there was not now a governments-might be gathered by recur- young man of 21 in the state, who would not be ring to the doctrines of 1798. Nor did he eligible under this restriction, before we got shrink from the invitation of his colleague through. [Roars of laughter.] to test his position by a recurrence to the doc- Mr. MANN briefly expressed his determinaarines of the democracy of 1846. And he took tion to vote against the whole section, with a pleasure in referring his colleague to these view of sending it to the proper committee, to doctrines, as exemplified in the modern consti- frame a general provision in regard to eligibility. tutions of Louisiana and New Jersey-the latter Mr. MORRIS, Mr. CLYDE and the CHAIR. particularly-and the recognitions that would MAN having expressed a desire to be heard be. there be found of this doctrine of wholesome fore the question was taken, the committee rose restrictions. As to the disparaging allusions and rep rted progress and the Convention made to our own and the constitutions of other Adj. to 10 o'clock to-morrow morning.:tatesk Jr. N. could notforbear the rgmark that -. '... X ~..... 207 FRIDAY, Prayerby the Rev. H. HARRINGTON. Mr. HUNT presented a memorial from the Central Committee of the National Reform As. socirtion of New York in relation to the occupancy of land. Referred to the eighteenth standint committee. The PRESIDENT laid before the Conven. tion a communication signed B. Skidmore, a citizen of New York, making certain complaints of the official conduct of Mr. William Paxton Hallet, clerk of the Supreme Court of New York-upon which a conversation ensued be. tween Messrs. MANN, TAGGART, TOWN. SEND, KIRKLAND, BASCOM, WARD and others. Mr. WARD asked if it was proper to receive a communication which reflected on the character of any public officer? What had the Con. vention to do with it? To entertain it would be to give encouragement to charges of a like nature against others. when there were proper ways by which they could be arraigned if they had done wrong. He wanted further time to consider it, and therefore moved to lay it on the table The motion to lay on the table was carried by a vote of 38 to 25; but as there was no quorum voting, the question was again taken, and it was agreed to by a vote of 50 to 32. A motion by Mr. TOWNSEND to print the communication was lost. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. Mr. W. TAYLOR, from committee number one, made a report as follows:The standing committee on the apportionment, ele? tion, tenure ot office, and compensation of the legislature, h iving coisidered the subjects referred to them, beg leave to report the following proposed amendments to the constitution, in connection with the sections to which they belong. ARTICLE FIRST. ~ 1. The legislative power of this state shall be vest. ed in a -enate and Assemblv. ~ 2. The:-ena e shill consist of thirty-two members, and the senators shall be chosen for two tears. The Assembly shall consist of one hundred and twentyeight members, who shall b* annual ly elected. Substitute the lollowling for section five The state shall be divided into thirty-two districts, to be called senate districts, each of which shall c oose one senator. The distric-s shall be nuumbered from one to thirty-two inclusive, and shall be div;ded into two classes, to be call d the first and second class.Numtibers 1, 3, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29 and 31, shall constitute the first class; and numbers 2, 4, 61 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 21, 26, 28, 30 and 32, shall constitute the second class. The seats of the Senators first elected pursuant to this Constitution of the fi st class, shrill be vAcated at the end of the first year, and of the second class at the end of the second year; in order that sixteen senators shall be annually elected (The representative population for a single senate district is 74,985.J District No. 1, shall consist of the counties of Suffolk and Queens. 68,657 s No. 2, shall consist of the counties of Kings and Iichmond 74,024 St No 3, shall consist of the first, second, third fourth, fifth, and sixth wards of the city and county of New York. 67,9S8 " No. 4, shall consist of the seventh, tenth, thirteenth, and fourteenth wards. 76,846 <" No. 6, shall consist of the eighth, niatl and fifteenth wards. 70,020 JULY 10. " No. 6, shall consist of the eleventh, twelfth, sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth wards. a 1,869. t No, 7, shall consist of the counties of West. chester, Putnam and Locklan4. 69,342 t No. 8, shall consist of the counties of Dutchess and Columbia 91,062 " No 9, shalli consist vt the counties of Orange and tilivatn. C6,840 " No.:0, shall consist of the counties of Ulster' and ereene. 75,900 " No. 11, Dhall consist of the counties of Albany and Scthenectady 54,3b2 No. 1-2, shall consist ol the county of Rlenseelaer. 58,b7I " No. 13, shall consist of the counties of Washington anid Saratoga. 7s,921 No. 14, shall consist of the counties of Warren, Essex, and (lintou. 66,277 No. 15, shall coanist of the counties of St. Lawrence lanid Franklin. 76,'i2 " No 16, sh ll consist of the counties of Herki. mer, Hamilton, Fulton and Montgomery.84,815 { No. i7, shall consist of the ounties of Schoharie and Otsego 81,6146 " No. i8, shall consist of the counties of Delaware and Chenango. 5,64S S No. 19, shall consist of the county of Oneida.78,6s6 " No. *o, shill cousist of the counties of Madison aid Oswego. 86,822 t No.-2l, thall consist of the counties of Jeffer. son and Lewis. 81,760 " No.:,2, shall consist of the county of Ononda. ga. 07,419 i No. 23, shall consist of the counties of Cort. laud, Droome and Tioga 72,166 It No. 24, stall consist oi the counties of Cayuga anld V' ayne. 89,532 t No. 06:i, shall consist of the counties of Tompkins, L-eiueca and Lhemung. 86,037 It No. a6, shall consist of the cuunties of Steuben Yates. 71,-237 No. 27;, shall consist of the county of Monroe. 63,oS6 " No..2, shall consist of the counties of Orleansr Genesee and Niape.ra. 85.028 No. '9, sh-til consist of the counties of Ontario anti Livingston. 7<,9b7 IC No. 33, shall consist ol the counties of Allega. ny and Wyoming. 65,831 i No 31, shall consist of the county of Erie.68 671. No. 32, shall consist of the counties of Chautauque and Cattaraugus. 75,730 ~ 6. An enunieration of the inhabitants of the state, shall be taken under the direction of the legislature;. in the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty-fiveand at the end of every teu years thereafter; anti the said districts shall be so altered by the legislature at the first session after the return of every enumeration, that each Senate district shall coutitin, as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants, excludingg aliens, paupers, and persons of color not taxed; and shall remain unal ered until the return of ano her unumeration, and shall at all times consist of contiguous territory; and no county shall be divided, in the formation of a Senate district, except sucA county shall be entitled to two or more senato7s. ~ 7. The members of Assembly shall be apportioned among the several counties of the state, as nearly as may be, according to the number of their respective inhabitants, excluding aliens, paupers, and persons of color not taxed; and shall be chosen by dustricts. 'J he legislalure, at sts next annual meeting, ahalt divide the several countie6 oj the state info as many districts as each county respectively is now by law entitled to members of Asentbly, to be called Assembly districts; and shall number the same in eac countsy entitled to more than one member,from n,,rmber oie, to the number such county is entitled to, n,umbers inclusive each of which districts shall choose one member of Assembly Each A.^seinbly district shall at all times co,,tain, as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabt an4ts and shall consist of contiguous territory; and no town or woard shall be divided in the formation of a 4atCl'y diArieS, eoge 208 ucel town or ward may he entitled to two or more mnembers. An apportionment of members of Assembly shall be made by the legislature at its first session alter the returnl of every etumeration; and the Assenmbly districta in the sev;i-ol founties of the state shalt be so at tered as to conform ir nunher to the said appotionmitn! and sh ltl be constitu ed as he7 ein before asrected and the apportionment.nd the districts shall remain unaltered, until another enumeration shall have been taken Every county heretofore est;tbli:hed, and sepcrately organized, shall always be entitled to one member of the Assembly; and no new county shall hereafter be erected, unless its population shall entitle it to a member ~ 9. 'The members of the legislature shall receive for thrir serVic es a compensation, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the public trea-ury; whic'L cotpensation shhtll not exceed the sum of three dollars per;iay; and after the year 18S7, shall not exceed the sum of ihree aollars per daty, for the period ot ninety diys f'ron the commencement of the sesson Whetl convened in extra session, bhJ the Governor, they shall receive such sumn a shall be fixed Jor the ordinury session They shall alto receive the suin of one dollar f.r ever!i ten mnilcn they shall travel, si going o Land returning from their plt:ce oi' meeting, on the most usual route T'he Speaker of the Assembly shall, in vi rtue of his office, rece ie an additional compensation, equal to ote third oJ his per diemn as mermer. ~ 10. No member of the legislature shall receive any civil appointment within this state, or to the Senate of the United l tates,from the (overnor, the Governor and Senite, or from the Legislature, during the term for which he shall h-ve been elected. 1I. No person being a member of Congress, or holding any judicial or military office under the United States, rhall hold a sett in the Legislature. And if any ) rson shall, ifter his election as a member of the Legislature, be elected to Congress, or appointed to any office, civil or military, under the government of the United States, his acceptance thereof shall vacate his seat. Substitute for sections 15 and 16, so far as relates to Senators and Members of Assembly, the following:5 lb The first election of Senatorj and Members of Assembly, pursuant to the provisions of this Constitution, shall he held on the Tuesday succeeding the first Monday,f November one thousand eight hundred and forts-seven, and all subsequent elections shall be held on the Tuesday succeeding the fi st Monday of Novemher in tach year, u-iless otherwise directed by the Legislature The Senators and Members of Assembly who mn.y be in office on the first day of January one thousand eight hundred and forty-seven, shall hold their offices until the thirty-first day of December following, and no longer. WM. TAYLOR, Chairman. Mr. TAYLOR said it was proper perhaps that he should state that every proposition in the report ha' been agreed to by the vote of a majority of the committee. The minority had assented to the report being made, reserving to themselves the right to submit their views when in committee of the whole. Indeed he might add that every individual member of the committee would feel himself at liberty, after reflection and discussion, to vote in accordance with his sense of duty, even though it might be that he should take opposite ground to that taken in committee. He then moved that the report be committed to the committee of the whole and printed, together with the accompanying table of apportionment. The motion was agreed to, and also a motion by Mr. STOW, to print 400 extra copies. EVENING SESSIONS. Mr. CHATFIELD offered the following resolution, which he briefly explained: Resolved, That when this Convention adjourns it adjourn to meet again at 4 o'clock this aftetnoon, and that it will bh'(d afternoon sessions, Commncing at 4 o'clock each day, uatUi the further order of the Con. Ieatioa Mr. PATTERSON opposed the resolution He thought it was premature, and would interfere with the deliberations of committees. His own committee met at half-past 3 o'clock, and as it was a rule of duty with him to vote on all questions in every body of which he was a member, if this resolution was adopted, he must ask to be excused fiom service on the committee. When the committees shall have all re. ported, such a resolution would be very proper, but it was not so now. He moved to lay it on the table. The motion was carried. DEBATE IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. Mr. BAKER called for the consideration of the resolution to fix the time to terminate de. bate in committee of the whole on the second section of the report of the first standing committee, at 5 minutes to two o'clock. A lengthened conversation ensued. Mr. CHATFIELD opposed the resolution, on the ground that it was too restrictive. It It would not only terminate debate, but cut off any other amendment that gentlemen might desire to offer, and it was impossible at that time to see what aspect the question would assume. Mr- TOWNSEND, in the course of some observations, said he hoped if gentlemen felt desirous to speak on the pending question, that the utmost latitude would be allowed. Mr. BROWN said his experience had shown him that all such attempts to cut off debate failed of their object. It would be much better to leave the matter to the good sense of members. Mr. HOFFMAN hoped the resolutiou would not be adopted. He had no desire to address the committee, but he hoped the Convention would not adopt a rule which would become a precedent, and a stringent one. It would operate as a rule against the freedom of debate-and that freedom was one thing which would make this body respected. Besides, it would cut off every amendment that should not be pending at the time the debate should be stopped. It would be the adoption in effect of the previous ques. tion in committee of the whole, which nothing short of an iron necessity would justify. Mr. PATTERSON also spoke in opposition. Mr. BRUCE hoped the resolution would pass. He thought the time for argument bad passed and that the time for action had arrived. Mr. STETSON said if the resolution were to be passed it should be amended, to limit it to the termination of debate. Mr. CLYDE had been anxious to close this de. bate, but if there were gentlemen who felt it to be their duty to express their views, he would sacrifice his own wishes, and vote against the resolution. Mr. BERGEN said they had spent ten days in the discussion of this question; there were 18 committees, and only 102 working days before the new constitution should be submitted to the people, being but 6 days ifr each committees' report. But if they were to spend 20 days on this report, and an equal proportion of time on each of the others, they must go back to the peo. ple for an extension of time. He would be glad to give every gentleman an opportunity to be heard if there was time to do it; but there was 209 not,nor could every gentleman expect to be heard if they were to take several hours tor that pur. pose. He hoped the debate would be stopped. After a few remarks from Mr. TOWNSEND, Mr. WRIGHT of Erie, moved to lay the resolu. tion on the table. Mr. BERGEN called for the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and being taken resulted thns. A ES-Messrs. Ayranlt, Pascom, Eouck, Bowdish, Jrayton, Brown, Cambreleng, D) 1 Campbell, Chatfield, Clyde, Conely, Cornell, Cuddeback, Dana, Danf;rtlh, Dorlun, Flinders, Gebhard, Graham, Green, H1,tifi'tin, Ho chkiss, Hunt, A. Huntiu;gton, Kenedy, liiklaiud, JMaxwell, Morris, Nellis, Nicholas, iicoll, )'Connor, Parish, Plitterson, lenllniman, Rhoades,.Richmluold, i.ikel, )l{ggles, Shhaver, Sihephard, 'in. mons, F. Slpecer, W. It. Spencer, -ttanlol,;Nel hens, S rong, Tigg:.rt, 'Tallrmadg, W. Taylor, 'ildent, Tut. hill, Vache, Vanschoonhoven, Ward, Warren, White, Villarl, v ood, A. Wright, W. H. Wriglt, A. W. Youg —6:; NOES-lMessrs. Alien, Archer, F. F Rackiis, H. Backu, R;ker, Bergen, Bruce, brundlage, Bull, Burr, 1. Ca;mpbell,jr, Candee, CIl:rk, Cook, Crocker, Dubois, Forsyth, Gardner. Harrison. Hunler, E. Hluntingtoil, Jourdl:n, Kerh:e, 'Kernan, Kiiggsley, Mann, McNeil, IVIcNitc, Powers, tKussell, a',iisbury, Sanford,.havw, Sheldoii, Stetson, ftow, Taft, Townsend, Mr. Presidtilt —3&. Mr. FORSYTH then offered the following — saying that lie hoped some limit would be assigned to this debate-though it might be remote, Resolved, That the deb;tre in the committee of the wh, le upoi the second section of the riport of committee No five, terrnina'e on Tutesday next, at twn o'clock, and Ihat the question be then taken on all amedments then pending. The resolution was laid on the table. Mr. NICOLL offered the following, which was adopteJ: Rtesolved, That Ihe Secretary of thl Regents of the TTniversity be requested to communicate to this Convention Ile nuimber of ac;atemiies particlpating in the listriition of the ipblic moneys -ub-eqiiently to the ye:-r 84s, with tt e a:g egate amountut of lnotey (distritu ed and the ageteg;ie nnImber of' lpupils inltrleted in each ye, r, and that he also statlhethe:lnount of roney distri uted to lie said aca'ecmies, or to any of them, in carch year, for the purpose of educatting comtmon school teachers, with the number of pupils so educated in each. Mr. W. TAYLOR offered the following, say. ing that it was the suggestion of an eminent citizen of great experience in legislation, who desired that it might be considered by the appropriate committee-and that lie thought it highly deserving of it as a check upon hasty legislation: Resolved, That it be referred to committee No. two, to iiquire into the expedienuy of providing that whenever al bill shall have been read foi the third time in either house of the legislature, no other business shall be done by the House uniil the quesli,,n tupon that bill shall be deci:ed, and that such question shall not be reconsidered dtring the session; and also that every bill, upon its third reading, shall be read in full and at length. Mr. RICHMOND suggested that no bill should pass except by the vote of a majority of all the members elected-as a proper saleguard agai:lst bills passing by reason of members opposed to them, leaving their seats on the final question. Mr. W. TAYLOR assented to such a modification-but under suggestions from various quarters, consented that the resolution should lie on the table Mr. RUGGLES offered the following, which was adopted: 14 Resolved, That it be referred to the standing committee No two. to enquire into the expediency of ri quiring the legisl;ture of ihis.:ate to amend the law lor the election of Senntors in Congress in such tmannver that in case either Hon e shall fail to tn:lke a tnomination within ten days after t nomiin tiom, by the other House, to fi l a vacancy, the election shall be madte without furtiler delay by joint ballot. Mr. LOOMIS offered the following, which was adopted: Resolved, That it be referred to the cors-niitee on coll ges, academies and common schools to inouire and report t:p',n the expediency of stctming by con,-tilutioual provision that appropriatimns for colleges, academies andi other institutions of learning shall be made on sotne just principles of proportion, and forbidding spectil appro(triati ns to particular institilt ons, to th- exclusion of otiers. Also to consider wit ther the office of Pue-ent of the University may not be dispet-ed with without puolic detritmentt, and whe her the preseit mode, ol appolinlng trustees of such ilstitu'ious ought not to be abolished. EXECUTIVE QUALIFIC'ATiON~. The committee of the whole, Mr. CHAT. FIELD in the chair, again took up the Article in relation to the Executive powers and duties. The question recurred on Mr. W. TAYLOR'S substitute for the second section-providing that no person not a qualified elector of this state, except as to residence in the county or town, shall be eligible to the office of Governor. Mr. MORRIS, having the floor, said he would waive his right, if any other gentleman desired to speak. He asked if the CHAIRMAN of the committee desired to speak? The CHAIRMAN had not determined whether he should speak at all. Mr. O'CONNOR thought he had been misunderstood-he knew that he had been misrepresented in a printed report of some remarks made by a highly respectable member of the houseand he did intend to say a few words, with the consent of the house. Mr. MORRIS yielded the floor, and Mr. O'CONOR said he Ibund himself repre. sented in a printed report of some remarks made by a gentleman in that house-who certainly de. served to stand as high in the estimation of his fellow members as any other-with having put forth certain doctrines and opinions that lie should suppose no man there would imagine could be advocated with success, or deserve the refutation even of a simple denial. And it was for this reason alone that he asked leave to add a few words to what was formerly said by him on this subject. Mr. O'C. did attach great importance to the question now befotre this body. Because he thought, though practically insigni. ficant, the insertion of this five years' qualification or its rejection, involved a principle vitally connected with a proper understanding of the true nature of a democratic form of government. And it was in that point of view and in that only, that he regarded the question as worthy of investigation. Most certainly the people of the state of New York, would never elect a man to a public office, so important as that of Governor who had not yet attained the age of 30-unless he was an individual of most distinguished morit and precocity. If such an individual should present himself, then it would be a case to which no rule of this kind should present an impediment to the exercise of the popular will in pro. 3210 rroting him to the station of whii the God who c eated him had pronounced him worthy. Mr. ( 'C. made the same remark in regard to the five year.' residence. This was a mere arbitrary thing. The worst man that could possibly I/e selected for this high office would be most likely to possess this paltry, insignificant qualification. The most worthy that could be selected from this great nation to hold that station, might be destitute of it. If common fame were nota common liar, this very second section owed its existence to the influence of an eminent member of the convention of 1821; whose name does not appear to be connected with the introduction of any part of it. Now that very distinguished citizen had a son born, Mr. O'C. believed in New York, now in the ripe maturity of a vigorous mind and body, enjoying in the amplest degree the confidence of all classes of his fellow citizens and eminently qualified for the high station of Governor, by reason of his intimate acquaintance with financial matters, by reason of his intimate relations with all the arts of peace if not the arts of war-fortunately it was the former we had most occasion forintimately connected with the business of this state during his whole life-who yet, for twenty-five years past had been a resident of New. Jersey, residing on the west bank of the Hudson, opposite the city of New-York, but spending daily, he presumed, twelve or fourteen hours out of the twenty-four, and evenon the Sabbath a considerable portion of the day, in the city of New-York. And under this rule that genileman could not be elected Governor without a five years' probationary residence. He repeated therefore that this was a most insignificant qualification, because the most unworthy candidate was almost sure to possess it, and the eminently worthy very apt to be without it. We had been told by gentlemen here that if there were no such restriction, our people might have elected Gen. Andrew Jackson, renowned for his ability in war and not less for his ability in peace-that they might elect Gen. Zachary Taylor, renowned for his obedience to the law, for his peaceful and unobtrusive walk through a long life, whose name never seriously attracted the public ear in connection with public affairs until but yesterday, when he became the champion of our country, successfully defended our Southwestern bor. der, and removed the doubts that foreign carping critics attempted to cast upon us-we were told that hut for this restriction, the people of NewYork might call to the high station of Governor an Andrew Jackson or a Zachary Taylor, who had not this qualification of a five years' resi. dence. Mr. O'C. would like to know whatevils would ensue if the people of New-York had happened on some occasion to have been guilty of the monstrous indiscretion of selecting for Governor the distinguished civilian he spoke of, or either of these distinguished military chief: tains? He contended that for all practical purposes, this was a most idle qualification-a most idle disqualification to throw in, as a barrier to the free choice the electors might make when selecting some person to hold the helm of state in perilous times. But, though practically of no importance, and though the course of this de. t ha4 prodtlce but this sngle tendency to change in his opinion-to wit, that we ouPhtra. ther to liberalize the common law in relation to holding office-still, upon the whole he thought we might as well adhere to the common rule that all electors and no others shall be eligible to any office. If prescribing a diff'erent rule, he would rather say that any citizen of the U. S., though he did not happen to enjoy the adventitious advantage of having resided even a year in New-York, so as to be a qualified voter, should be eligible to office-he would rather liberalize and declare that every citizen of the U. S., wherever he may have resided, who should satisfy the majority of the electors of New-York that he was fit to be chief magistrate, should be eligible. And if that should fail to result favorably-if by this relaxation of guards, it should so happen that on some occasio' a hero like Jackson or Taylor might be called to govern New-York, instead of the insignificant la. vorite of some petty cabal who had barely the naked qualification of a residence of one year or five years in the state-in God's name let the evil come, and he trusted that the prosperity and freedom of the Empire State.would survive the trial! But the proposition with which he start. ed in this case, enshrined in the elementary principles of a representative democ. racy whose basis is absolute equality in all the members of the political body, lie (Mr. O'C.) contended that it was improper, unwise, and unbecoming in the people to impose these restraints upon their free choice, and because it would be unwise so to do, we who were acting for them, preparatory to their final judgment, should not recommend to them the adoption of such restraints. No man there, he trusted, was ignorant of the fact, that we could impose no re. straints on the people-that our action was per fectly void unless the people should approve it. All of us knew that; we required not to be taught so at this late hour. We knew, and no man could deny it, that the people had the right to impose these disqualifications, and so far to restrain their own tree action. A majority might agree to that-but the question was ought a majority to agree to it. They ought if any good could result from it, and if it was not repug. nant to the true principles of representative de. mocracy based upon liberty and equality. He asserted in the first place, and thought he l:ad proved that no good could result from it, and secondly he asserted that it was repugnant to the true principles of a democratic state w*here equality was the first principle of government. It a portion of the citizens of this state were competent to high office, and another portion were not, he should like to know whether the constituent body, by such a principle, were not divided into two classes-the class of patricians who were competent to high office, and a cla.s of plebeians who were not. Was such a rule, no matter in how slight a degree introduced, consistent with the principle of absolute equali. ty among all the members of the state? He ap. prehended not; and that we should act most ab surdly in introducing a qualification so useless, so insignificant in practical consequences, for the mere purpose of writing in the fundamental law that the constituent body was divided into two sections-the competent and incompetent to hold 211 high stations. This was his principle-not should request the right of voting for one of theidleopinion imputed to himmostsingularly by them for Governor. We had the right beyond the gentleman of high intelligence before alluded all question, to recommend this measure or any to. Now, a word more in defence of this proposi- other having an aristocratic tendency-because tion against a remark made by the very distin. we should not cease to be a republic and a free guished gentleman from Saratoga (Mr. PORTIER) state, though we should travel some distance who, as had been well said, had in his own per. from the true principles of a democratic state. son vindicated the claims of early youth to fa. If we should diverge from them in some mode. vorable distinction, and their just claim to be rate degree, we should still be a representative entrusted with the highest station-that honor. democracy. But, he contened, that every de. able gentleman was pleased to say, and the hon. parture fiom the true principles of democratic orable gentleman who claimed the privilege of equality among all who were permitted to parclosing this debate, (Mr. MORRIS,) Mr. O'C. be. ticipate in the political government of the counlieved intended to say. that there was a certain try,wus so fr a departure from the trueprinciples inconsistency in this doctrine, inasmuch as the of a representative democracy, whose basis and constituent body were not the whole people- foundations rested on the principles not merely that they themselves acted in a sort of represen. of liberty but of absolute equality. Reference tative position-that they formed but a small had been made to the bill of rights, to show that portion of the whole people-and that they all these non-voting classes had rights. True themselves represented aliens. Indians, ne. the bill of rights showed that they had rights; groes, disfranchised felons, infants, and to it contained restraints upon our officers anA close the list, the fair ladies. Nay, we were agents to prevent them from dealing cruelly or told that they not only represented these classes improperly with those who were the subjects cf but the unborn millions who were to come after law, to whose care and guardianship we the us and who were to be governed by the laws we people were obliged to entrust them. But the might establish. Now all this was true in a po. bill of rights did not give them any political etical sense, but not in a political sense. The powers;and from it no argument could be drawn electors of this state no more represented all which boreat all upon the principle with which these classes, than the emperor of Russia or the lie commenced this discussion, and by which he Sultan of Turkey or any other despot represent- was willing to stand or fall-and he trusted lie ed the people of this country. He deemed that should have a chance to p!ace himself on record the electors, the white citizens of the state over as having sustained it. When principles 21, and the negroes who happened to have 250 were at i-sue, and le was known to be present dollar's worth of real estate, represented these and an actor, lie wanted to be known as an adnon.voting classes. The former constituted the vocate of the right. In following out to itscon. political body and with them reposed the whole sequences this argumentof the people's right to power of the government. We controlled these impose upon themselves any rule they pleased, non-vot;ng classes, not by choice, not by repre. the gentleman from Saratoga (Mr. PORTER,) sentation. but by reason of our mental and phy. had happily illustrated it by saying that we sical superiority-either by our superiority in have a right, if our constituency should con. mental power for the purposes of government, cur, to create a monarchy. No doubt of it - or by our mental and physical superiority corn- True, we had a right to create a monarchy. But bined. We controlled the Indians, because they the moment we should exercise that right, adieu were fewer in numbers. We controlled the ne. to the Republic. It was the riglit of suicide. groes, so lar aswe did control them, for the same A great deal had been said about the people not reason —we controlled felons because we chose calling for these alterations. He should like to to deprive them of the rights of representation. know how we were to find out what the people We did not sit here pointing to the records of a called for. Had we no jurisdiction lo examine felon's conviction as the commission appointing a question presented by this constitution, unless us the felon's attorneys to make laws for him we could point to an editorial or communica. and in his name. We did not represent infants tion in some paper in some quarter of the State, -nor did we represent tile ladies. All these pointing to that question? Must we producea classes of persons constituted the subjects of county convention resolution to justify an exa. government, being under the shadow and pro- mination of any part of the constitution?tection of the laws. They were not members Where was that written in the law? Each one of tile political body-and the bringing forward of us represented at least 20,000 persons, and of this argument served to show how wholly each one of us stood here speaking the voice of those who brought it forward misunderstood the that 20,000. And let no man say that the peo. character and nature of representation in the pie did not demand this alteration, when 20,000 democratic sense. It might be that it was un- of them, speaking here thriough one of their re. just in those over the age of 21 thus to control presentatives, invited the examination and asked the whole power of the government; but they the convention to apply its judgment to the had done it. They had done it-and let those question. But it was not true that the people who considered it improper. at a suitable time had not complained of this second section, and and place, bring in their resolutions to enfran- strange would it be if they had not complained. chise the Indians, the Negroes, the infants and When that constitution of '21 was enacted, the all those now prohibited fron voting. Then gentleman Irom Orange (Mr. BROWN) who had we would debate the question whether they been frequently alluded to-sometimes rather should take part in the political power of the erroneously in relation to his history-had just government All he had to say now was that about attained his full ugeand was legally corn when the ladies were permittted to vote.' he petent to be, and 4n point of ability, very fit to 212 be a candidate for any public office. His true' history was not, as supposed by one gentleman, that he emigrated as a matter of choice. In fact, although he drew his first breath in a Joreign clime, he never knew any other country but the free land of America, and had even hailed it as his native land. In 1821 he was competent to be Governor, had the people chosen to elect him-fully competent. But the new constitution disqualified him, and for twenty-five years he had stood disqualified, though the negro who had blacked his boots was competent if he owned 250 dollars' worth of land. He, Mr. O'C.) knew an old soldier of the Revolutionary war, who served under Washington, and was wounded at the battle of Trenton, who at the time the constitution of '21 was adopted, exclaimel with the utmost indignation against his disftanzhisement. He had no hope of being governor, but felt outraged at his distranLhise. ment; and spoke of it with the utmost indignalion-' I am competent, said he, to be elected to the highest office in the Union, to the chief magistracy, to sit in the chair of my immortal general; but I am stamped as incompetent for governor of New York-I, though I drew my first breath in a foreign clime, though born with your country, though I bled to accomplish your independence ' Twenty odd years ago had this second section been the subject of great observation; the smaller features being, it is true, generally overlooked in indignation against its most odious ones. Twenty years ago it excited indignation for its injustice, declaring, as it did, that he who might sit in a seat that Washington occupied was not fit for the seat of chief magistrate of our state. A grey-haired old man now near life's utmost limit, standing in a relation to him (Mr. O'C.) the nearest and dearest that any man ever held to another, pointed to that section at the time it was enacted, and pro. nounced it as having had its origin in a heart hostile to the men who left the old world to die or conquer in the cause of Liberty in the new. He was not to be governor, but Mr. O'C. trustedl lie might yet live long enough to be qualified for the station, if the frea citizens of the stale should see fit to elect him. If Mr. O'C. was correctly informed, an instance of great public dissatlsfation at this section had occurrel. The party in this state usually in the minority. but which le granted embraced the greater amount of' wealth,-undoubtedly the greater amount of high attainment in point of education-that claimed to be, and for aught Mr. O'C. knew might be, the most respectable, and which in all things but political influence, probably, was the most influertial-had within the last 25 years settle I their choice as a candidate for governor at one time on a venerable and distinguished citizen of New York who was born with our federal constitution anti became a citizen when we first became a nation; a man every way com. petent to be President of the United States; but who, under tlis law, was disfranchised by reason of foreign birth-they were obliged by rea. son of this second section to give up the idea of nominating him. He alluded to an illustrious an-l distingaishel citizen, ALBERT GALLATIN, whose name was connected with the public history of the Union; wlo had brought a vast amouat of talent and ability to the aid of the general government in its infancy when that kind of talent was greatly needed-who had helped to build up an important department of the gov. ernment-who now in far advanced arid vener. able age, stood at the head of a literary institution in our commercial emporium diligently fur. thering the effort to render it the literary empo. ritum of the new world. Upon the occasion al luded to,it was understood that that venerable patriot, scholar and philanthropist, was, though born in a foreign clime, the choice of the conservative party of the state for the office of governor; but this second section was in the way of their choice. It disfranchised him, and defeated their free choice. He (Mr. O'C ) hoped that to him too might be granted length of days to become a free citizen of this state.Again. he, (Mr. O'C.) did protest against this cry that what had been written, what had preceled us, should stand, unless we found some. thing absolutely mischievous in the working of it, unless we could show that some ward meeting or townmeeting had cried out against it. Foc himself, in spirit he was conservative. He wa; for the preservation of every safeguard of pri. vate right, of every barrier for the p otection of property and every institution for the preservation of steadiness and uniformity in the law and in its administration. But he was disposed to be radical in rooting out all antiquated evils and principles intended to create or to perpetuate in. equalities and disqualifications-whatever might tend to the erection of' one class above another in the state. He would have a pure, perfect. representative democracy, where all men who had any share in the government should stand equal, and where the true principles of the Revolution should be carried out to their fullest extent. Why, lie asked,should he be asked to revere for its antiquity this law of 1821! It was onlyabout half as old as he was himself-and he should be sorry to claim reverence on the score of age. But if it were as old as that law which declared the right of kings to govern as divine, he would root it out-the more readily for its antiquitythinking it had lived full long enough, if as old as that despotic law whose elegy was properly pronounced here yesterday by the gentleman from Orange (Mr. BROWN,) the law that forbade any man going out of his native countrya law which destroyed patriotism and pronounced every man's native land his prison, of which the despotic governor might well be called the jailor. If it were as old as this, because incon. sistent and incompatible with the very genius and essence of our government-though it might never have a chance in a million of years to operate-yet for its inconsistency with the true principles of' our government, he would root it out and condemn it. He trusted in the good sense of this convention and their true under. standing of the principles of the great people who selected them to make a fundamental law -destine:l to live a long or a short period as it should meet the public wants and wishes-he *rusiel in them to sweep from the constitution not only this paltry, little, artificial qualification -but the whole section,that it might never again serve to exclude t he warrior of the revolution from high otff-aaid never again occupy eiaht 218 days of the precioustime of a Convention of the knew where he was. He knew from the smi. State of New York. ling faces around him that Bob was to lake it Mr. MORRIS said, if no other gentleman de- [Laughter] before the debate closed. And yet, sired to speak, he would take the occasion to in the course of the debate which followed,say a few words. (No other gentlemanrising,) without alluding to any particular gentlemanMr. M. went on to say that he stated ye;ter- words were put into his mouth which he never day, before the committee rose, and he now re- uttered, and sentiments which he never enterpeated that in his jidgmnent this subject of the tained. But he sat still, for he wasone who qualifications of Governor did not belong to loved to bide his time-and knew thathe should committee number five-and that that part of be permitted to make the proper corrections.the Article which related to the power of the He was charged with using this expressionlegislature to pass a bill against the veto of the that there should be checks and bits on the Governor, did not belong to committee number people. He never uttered them in the world.five. But it was due to the committee to state They never entered his brain. Stillthe changes the reasons why in tle opinion of some it did had been rung on the words all round the belong to them, and the object of presenting house-and but for a good memory and good them for consideration. The resolution of re- principles, he should have thought he did use ference charged that committee with the tenure them. The words he did use were theseof office, among other things, of the Governor. checks and guards-and their application, as he This word tenure meant not on!y the duration understood them, were-checks on the delegates of the office, but the conditions on which it was -guards for the protection of the people. That held. Hence nq man's judgment could be ques. was the meaning of the words as he used them. tioned who should be of opinion that this matter Another expression had been attributed to him did belong to committee number five. He was by a gentleman-not his associate-which deof a different opinion himself, though the sub- served a remark. That gentleman, with an ject was not discussed But his idea was then emphasis of look and utterance that made him and now, that this section as to qualifications at the time suppose they were italics, double should be reported as it then stood for the pur- leaded-turning and looking at him with an eye pose of enabling the Convention to dispose of that could not be resisted-exclaimed-" the a subject in regard to which there was a differ- gentleman from New.York don't want a for. ence of opinion as to wiere it did belong. As eigner as Governor"-as if he (Mr. M.) had to that part of the report which had not been made use of that expression. Now when driven reached, and which referred to the veto power, into a simile-and we were lull of them herethat was obviously of so questionable a charac- he told gentlemen expressly that he would not ter that it might belong to one committee or go across the Atlantic for one, because it might another-and the section on that subject was be misinterpreted, and he might have two things therefore inserted as it stood-part of it belong. imputed to him neither of which belonged to ing legitimately to the committee, whatever him-but that he would goto an adjoining state, might be thought of that part relating to the aild pick up a native.born citizen-and he would action of the legislature in case of a ve o. not let him be governor, until he became a citi. Having disposed of this preliminary matter, he zen of our state. He never used the expression would pass to another. imputed io him. They had also put him in This debate had been so long continued that print, as using two words-" 30 years" and gentlemen had ihal to be indulged frequently in native." Neither of them passed his lips. He explanation of some remarks previously made, trusted it was not the intention of the reporters and it had been absolutely necessary to make to misrepresent him. He did not believe it was. them. One gentleman would attribute to ano- Probably it was a mistake of the printers. At ther some expression, and it would appear in all events, the sentiment conveyed by them, as the papers of the evening or morning, and it attributed to him, he never entertained. His would be caught up here and bandied about, ac whole life bore conclusive testimony to the con. companied with violent gesticulations, as if trary. the gentleman had actually used the expression Now the question was precisely what it was that perhaps had never passed his lips. Now, when he had last the honor of addressing the though he sat still until actually poked out, [A committee-because the word "native" had laugh] convinced that it was not only not neces- then been struck out: also the " thirty years." sary at the time, but in bad taste then to speak And though the discussion ever since, until this -still, when he did rise, it was with the inten. moment, had been mainly on these two qualifi. tion and determination to speak cautiously, and cations, yet both had been perfectly settled two certainly courteously-for he knew this house or three hours before he last addressed the better than his colleague, who supposed there Chair. He now understood the section which it was only about one man in five who could speak was asked to strike out, to be, that the Governhere. Mr. M. said he knew the moment he cast or was to be a citizen and a resident of five his eye round the house, that he who thought years. That was the section as amended. Genthere was a man here that could not express tlemen appeared to conceive that it was himself fully and beautifully on any subject, something very wrong in a member who had was no physiognoinist, and did not understand signed a report, if he should in his argument ex. bumpoloay [Laughter.] He therefore spoke pr(ss views different in somemeasure from those with a deliberation that lie was not exactly noted presented in their report. It seemed to be par. for. In the few observations he made on that ticularly so regarded in this case, from the tact occasion, he stood and measured his words, and that he stated the report to be unanimous. It he almhot weighel his ieateaces; becaaue he was unanimous, for the purpose ef' preseasing 214 the subject to the Convention. All the gentle. mass, by their institutions had appointed to the men liindly signed it with him, because they office of electors. The man who voted, voted were willing that it should be unanimous for in a representative capacity. The very constithat purpose. And he had yet to learn that tution we were now framing made him a repre. there was any impropriety in that. The chair. sentative-in casting his vote, he voted for and man of a committee signed all the reports, and represented five or six others of the community. gentlemen associated with him were responsible It was, therefore, that we were so cautious so far asthe presentation of it for consideration whom we made electors. Hence we had had went. He stated, upon the introduction of the such a hard fight for years to extend the privil. report, and with the sanction of his collegues, ege of being this representative-the authority that, though unanimous, the committee did to vote. And he asked were human rights the not come here wedded to the precise article pre. less, the rights we boasted of, the rights set sented-that they should not consider it an im- forth in the Declaration of Independence-were putation upon them, if other views prevailed they the less because it was a puling infant, or here-that they were not bound by their action because it was a female. or because the boy was 'so far that they could not, if convinced, upon ar- 20 and not 21? Certainly not. We were not a gument here, that they were wrong, vote accor. pure democracy. It did not dwell here. He dingly —being desirous not only that the propo. did not know that it did any where except a. sition should be scrutinized, but to review and mong the Indian tribes. Ours was a re. scrutinize it themselves. That was the view presentative democracy. If it were a pure under which the report was brought in-some democracy your infants could vote if they gentlemen approving of it entire, and some not; had the strength to go to the olls. So could but all assenting that it should be presented. the female and every other human being.Now, as to the question whether any qualifi. But this was a representative democracy We cations should be required for a Governor of were here under that system of governmentthis democratic government-and he used the to determine whether all should vote. — Word in no party sense, but as indicitive of the We had the right to recommend that all should principle of our institutions-we were met with vote; and if the people were to adopt that, then the objection that it would be contrary to the there would be none of this representation in spirit of our institutions to require any. It was voting. They would all be the original people argued that it would be an imputation on the themselves. Each man, woman and child would people who were to make the selection. Now, represent himsell' or herself. We had not done his learned friend and associate (Mr. O'CoNoR) that. We should not probably do it. But he was right when he predicted that he (Mr. M.) wished we could bring it down below 21. He took the same view of this matter that the gen. -houlJ be glad to see it extended to widows tleman from Saratoga (Mr. PORTER) did-that who had property to protect, and who in genethe electors were not the people, but merely a ral were more capable of protecting it than the part of them. And Mr. M. denied that we came drunken husband who dissipated it while he here merely to represent the electors of the lived,and perhaps died in a debauch. [A voice, state. We had others and as dear ones to pro. "I hope we shall have no property qualifica. (ect as they. We had other interests to look tion.'] Mr. M. hoped so too. He did not be. after than theirs. When we spoke of the peo long to that tribe-to that breed of politicians — pie we meant the whole mass-the 2,500,000. though he wanted property protected, and the Mr. M. took the position that we did represent women could protect the property; if that qualihere-and we were the only single body that did fication of a man was given to her it was all -the whining infants and the mothers that bore that was necessary. With these views and po. them-the child fromu infancy to manhood-the sitions-which he believed were precisely those women from childhood to the grave-and all of the gentleman from Saratoga, (Mr. PORTER) human nature, whether distinguished as an who was the first man to avow them here, and elector or not-olr they all constituted Mr. M. bowed to the gentleman as an originalpart and parcel of' the people, and we then we were here creating qualifications fiom were here as their representatives, not as the the beginning The first step was to quality a mere naked representatives of those who voted voter. That qualification we should probably for us. We were here to make an organic law leave as it was. We should say he should be a to protect the rights of those who could notvote. male, and 21, to begin with. It might as well And he was rejoiced tha: we had already a re- be said that it was questioning the intelligence port (by Mr. TALLMAPGE) that showed thatthis of the people to presume who should be enti. Convention felt the responsibility cast on them, tied to vote. Why not! Why was it not as an: though at a late day, were coming forward much an imputation on their intelligence to into protect the rights and property of an impor. form them, by way of' " checks and guards"taut part of the people-though they could not not "checks and bits," who should vote, as to vote. He meant the women. We were here prescribe the qualification for governor. It representing widows and all who could not go was necessary to do that. It was beneficial to the ballot boxes-to protect the witness, no for the mass that it should be done. Here matter whether they were adults or children, commenced our representative democracy. A females or Indians. He was glad to see that man must be 21. Not only that, he must be a an enquiry on that subject had been sent to a citizen of the State-that is, must have lived in committee. We represented all these. We the State one ar. More than this, he must have were to frame an organic law to protect all lived six montlis in the county. See how it stood these. And when he spoke of the people he then. FprMr.W. did notbelieve thatanygentle meaat them in the mast —not those whom that man's democracy was so t.mpant as to wish te 215 destroy either of these qualifications of a voter. character to be one-sixteenth part of the people Why was that (lone? For the protection of the of the city of New York-not merely ofthe vo. masses that could not vote. True-old men ters-he repeated, but for that truth, this could take care of themselves. But the people body would not now have been in session. It -the great mass-the two millions one hund- was uncomtirtable to admit this, but the truth red thousand women, children, minors, &c.- was so. He might say, that if we had been gothey it was that were to be protected by these verned by the people, or even by their represenchecks and guards-not Iits-checks and guards. tatives, this body would not have been in sesThere was the first qualification; and he asked sion. But it was this trickery and chicaneryif it was deemed proper to make that quali. tis " tickling of my elbow, and I'il tickle fication for the elector to protect the mass, j yours," of the combinations of designing, selfish why was it not proper to have qualifications men, for personal agrnndizement, and procuring for the governor also? Mr. M. agreed with office-which had pervaded the state, (and both others, that this question was practically political parties had been guilty in this iespect,) of very minor importance, and wilh his which had aroused the people to demand more learned associate from New York (Mr. O'CoN- stringent checks and guards for their protection; OR) he did not believe we should have a Gov. to prevent the power of the people being used ernor elected by the people, who would be under for political aggrandizement, and to till the 30. And he would be a young man. Mr. M. ipockets of the;managers-this had brought belonged to the young men-and hal been one us here. It was to break up this machinery, of of them at their meetings and conventions. Yet which the people had become weary, that we he was above 30. Therelore, he considered a were here. And Mr. M. trusted that we should man of 30, a young man-youngenough to have make such an organic law as would carry prosomething to learn by experience and practice. tection to the rights and privileges of the most The mass of men did improve beyond that age, humble, whether child, woman, or, as his learnunless they were these precocious lads-these ed associate had suggested, unfortunate convict. Jonah's gourds, that grew up in a night and- wi. Mr. M. admitted that convicts were represented thered in the morning. This question was im- here. Because we were as much bound to take portant only because it was on the threshold of care of human nature, whether it were a felon, our proceedings. And this was an excuse and an or the citizen at large. He was not ashamed to excellent excuse for the time spentand the abili. admit that on this floor; and that it should be ty elicited and displayed on both sides of the his efltrt to incorporate in the organic law. that question. For the principle settled here was to which might protect, reform and bring back to go through the whole of this organic law-and usefulness those who may have been convicted he saw that the gentleman now occupying the of crime. Mr. M. believed he had run his rope chair -(Mr. CHATFIELD) felt precisely as he and out-[Laughter,;nd cries of" Go on,"]-if not his associates on committee number five felt, the time he intended to occupy. He did not that these equalifications were necessary. For know, if he should talk an hour, that he could in the article reported by him the oth. more fully express his views In his judgment, er day-the next after that of committee this instrument would be infinitely better with number five, he proposed that an engineer these qualifications of citizenship and five years should be elected, and that this engineer should residence in it-though practically it might not be a man ot' seven years' practical knowledge oft be required. But he preferred that the people his profession. It was a wise report. But gen- of the great state of New-York should Rot now,. tiemen might exclaim aoainst that report- on the second section of their labors, proclaimr " trammel the people!"-" are the people so ig- to the world that we believed we might be in a sinorant that they can't find out who will make a tuation not to have a man among us that could fill good engineer?" Or as his friend behind him the importantoffice ofGovernor-and that therehad it, "the people cannot bind themselves-it fore we would leave the constitution open olthat would be entirely illegal." They might bind our friends down east, or out west, might come the engineer when made, but could not bind the here and relieve us from this dreadful dilemma aggregate who selected him, by prescribing a of ignorance and incapacity. Though it might qualification in advance! Now all knew thatan never be required, he should like to have New unskilful engineer might run the state down hill York declare in her constitution her confidence instead of up-ard that if you out him on your in her own citizens-that she should put it on railroads and steamboats, he might burst all record that she believed, what the fact was,that your boilers. Mr. M. had yet to learn that a you could go into no hamlet or village, shire or skillful engineer was so much more important half shire in the state, without finding a man fit to the mass than a qualified Governor-or that for any office. If he could bel eve that we ever it was any more important that an engineer could be so destitute of timber that we could not should know his business than that the judiciary find from the shore of the Atlantic to the Lakes should know the law. [A voice. "The Go. a man capable of performing the duties of govvernoris the pilot of the ship."] The Governor ernor of this great state, then he would sing out was the veriest engineer of them all-not Ro. at once-in God's name strike out these qualift. man-for that would not be appli able. He cations, and let us so to Boston in Massaclhudid not believe that Rome was ever democratic. setts, or New Hampshire, (which did furnish But waiving that-the people did not overn a great many very great men fr pretty muicb us. We were governed and controlled by dele- all parts of the Union) and ask from gates of the electors. And but for that truth. these states a governor. In such case he we, the essence of the people-for we were all would prefer to put in the constitution a con essences, and he claimed in his representative fessiaon which we l1wpers called a cognovit 216 here at the start, that we had not virtue and in. tellicence enough to control ourselves. Had we not better send to these other states for delegates to make the organic law, it that was to be the principle to be proclaimed by this advertizement in advance-the striking out this section. lie should vote against all the amendments, because he preferred the original section as amended. Then he should be happy to have the gentleman from Saratoga give us a section in reference to the Lieut. Governor precisely like this. But he should like to see a vote on the section iast stool. Mr. PENNYMAN entered into some explanations in relation to the jurisdiction of the conmmittee, of which lie was a member, over this subject, which had been called in question; and added that the committee were unanimous on every question except the veto power, which he should explain on a future occasion. Mr. CHATFIELD (having called Mr. PATTERSON to the chair) said, although during this debate, he was free to confess he felt a strong desire to address the committee on the penling proposition, he was led from the indications this morning upon the resolution to terminate debate at a quarter to 2 o'clock, to conclude that it would not be expedient, nor in accordance with the feelings of the committee, nor desirable, to add any further remarks on the subject. But in consequence of the kindness extended to him yesterday, when there was naniIestel a desire to sit there till the question was taken on this section-by the committee rising with a view of enabling him to address the committee-he had felt it to be his duty to come down from the Chair, to offer an apology for not availing himself of that kindness so exlended to him. (Cries of " go on" from all parts of the house.) He could not with any consistency, in his judgment, occupy the time of the comrmittee at the present m 'ment with further remarks on the subject before them, for he always felt an unwil!ingness to address any body of sensible men whom, he knew, felt impatient to get at the question, an l had a disinclination to hear further debate. It was an unpleasant position to occupy, and he should be unwilling to detain a body of reluctant hearers, and therefore lie would allow the questi.n to be taken, without protracting the debate further with any renarks of his. (Cries of "go on. go on.") Iftit was the desire of the committee he would yield the floor and allow the question to be taken. (Renewed cries of "gj on.") He had certainly desired to express his views as to certain monstrous political heresies which had been put be. fore the committee during this debate. He had been astonished to hear it urged that no change should be made so long as no practical evil had arisen from the provisions of the present constitution- He confessed he had no reverence lor existing institutions. He had there on that floor as a member of this body, no reverence for indi. viduals or for men. tIe was not here for that purpose. As he had taken occasion on a former day to say, they stood there on the ele. meats of society, with tie principles of gov. ernment scattered around them, without or. der, or arrangement, and it was their bu. siness to arrange and- apply them so as to sc. cure the best interests of the people whom they represented. He felt it his duty to do that without in any manner being bound to existing institutions. It they were not to touch provis. ions, from a reverence for existing things-if they were not to touch them because the;e was shown to be no existing evils, they were then without an errand or motive, or work to accomplish. Now, whenever he found any thing in the Constitution opposed to the leading princi. ples of ourgovernment-though gentlemen may say that no practical evil has arisen-he was just as free to strike it out, and to insert a prin. ciple in consonance with his views, as though it had ever found a place there, and was known to the Constitution. What is the length and breadth of the argument which they heard there? Why, i' the spirit which prevailed here, had always existed in this country, we should have been in a state of colonial vassalage to this day, and subject to the British crown. tReverence for existing things would have made them slaves to monarchial power. Why were they here this day? It was because the spirit of chan:ce. had burst the bands which bound us in former days, and recogniseJ a p;inciple more consistent with the happiness of man, and of the vWhole human family. But enough en that subject. He wished to answer a remark of some gertlemen of this house, which he conceived to be either unjust or disengenuous. It was that every gentle. man who sought to liberalize the Constilttion, and to strike from it obnoxious provisions, is a demagoaue, and is tickling the ear of the "dear people," fromi the petty, contemptible motive of self-aggrandisement. He was happy in having been placed where he heard every word which had fallen from gentlemen in this debate, and lie could therefore slate that no such remark had Iallen from the liberal portioa of the Conven. lion. They all came from the oiter side. The charge is thrown upon us, and I infer the principle advocated is supposed or known to be sus. rained by public sentiment. If so, I ask how such gentlemen can escape the charge they apply to us? Why did those gentlemen seek to make restrictions? Why did they seek to impose " guards and bits," as remarked by the gentle. man from New-York (Mr. MORRIS)? Was it because it was in accordance with public senti. ment? Ifthey believed what they sail,:hen he asked if those gentlemen were not as much de. magogues as those upon whom they have cast the accusation? He had the right to throw back the imputation on them, which he did not believe attached to any one. He took a different view of it. He believed every gentleman was acting with a consciousness of his own respon. sibility to his constituents, with the best of mo. tives, and the firmest purpose to carry those radical reforms into full effect, which the peo. ple called for in constituting this Convention.But they were told, and the most loudly by the gentleman from Essex (Mr. SIMMONS), that the people have not cal e;J for these particular reformns. Now he asked the gentleman from Essex how he determined what influenced the mind of every voter on voting for this Convention? How can the gentleman from Essex undertake to say what influenced my vote, and the voters in his own seetion of the country, in favor of 217 the Convention? It might be that a very dif- people would act right, and they therefore said ferent motive influenced those in other sections. it was proper to entrust them with power.He denie.l to the gentleman from Essex the right He never would consent to put restrictions in to sit in judgment on his vote; and on the mo. the constitution unless they were to accomplish tires which influenced his conduct in voting i r some great good by it. He never would p'ace these great measures of refornm. Again, w ien himself in the attitude of hamperi:ag the people the charge ofl dcmngoguism was cast on then, unless some great good was to result. But lie desired to look at the conduct of gentlemen what was the contemplated good here? Was it rn the other side of this question, to see how to prevent the election of some young man under they escaped the imputation. Gentlemen had 30 as their Governor? It had been raid that taken pains to declare beobre-hand how desirous practically there would be found to be no force they were to strike out the word " native" from in the proposed limitation, for the people never the Constitution. Why were gentlemen so par- would elect a young mIan under 30; hut it an ticularly anxious to be the advocates of that individual should stand outfrom the community, measure? Why, if there was danger to be al. distinguished above all others, giving cvi. prehenaed from any part of the section report. dence of capacity and talent to induce the peo. ed, it was to be apprehended from that particu. ple to elect him, where would be the danger?lar portion cf it. It was well known to every History was replete with useful lessons on this one, that thle German or the Irish portion of the subject. If any period of our judicial history population at any time held the balance of was distinguished above all others, it was iwhen power between the two political parties; and if our bench was occupied by young men. Look the demagogues at whom gentlemen were so at a Tompkins, a Spencer, and a Kent. At mucl frilghtened, did really superintend anti con- what age was Tompkins placed on the Supreme trol the nominatline conventions, they could put bench? At the age of 30. At what age was forward a foreigner for the express purpose Spencer p'aced there? Atahout32. What was of secaring the votes of the foreign population, the age of Charceller Kent? About 34, and an.l who did not see that by party drill a corn- who was there that did not believe he was as bination cotuld be thus effectel which must re- competent at the age of 30 as at 34? At what su!t in the election of such a person to the office age did the distinguished member of this Lody o' Governor. Of the course pursued by gentle- representing the county he came frrm (Mr. men then, lie might say-using a vulgar expres- NELSON) take his seat on the judicial bench as sion, that they Iad taken exceeding pains to circuit judge? At the age of 27. What was the stop up the tap, but had left the bung-holeopen. age of John Birdsall when he was appointed lie must not, however, be understood as apply- judge of the 8th circuit? Twenty-six. And lie ing these remarks to the committee for strikinz might go on to enumerate other names to show out the word " native," for we should be want. that our judicial history is most brilliant when inI in justice, and magnanimity, aye, and grati- we had y;ong, talented, vigorous men on the tude, it' we were to sanction the imposition cf bench rather than when we had impaired old restrictions of' so odious and infamous a charac. age and men in a state of dotage. Again, who ter. It would give him no uneasiness, if the penned the Declaration o Indepedende? At what people should be pleased to elect a man who did age was the distil gr-ished auiior of that instruriot happen to be born on this side of the water, nent when lie wrote it? But 33. And who and lie wculd leave them entirely free to make was there who did not believe that 3 years be. suci a selection. IHe had no doubt Inany nen fore when he was preparing his notes on Vir. could be lournd of that class who would adminis- ginia he was not as well qualified for the importer with fidelity and ability the government of tant task? Our military history is alo replete th-'t.tutx. He knew many d'stinnuished citizens with usetful instruction. What was our con. who were not native burn, flor whom hlie sholl dition when the Hulls, the Dearborns, the feel it a privilege to vote. But in alluding to Wilkinsons, the Smyths, and others were Ii s subject now lie had only done it to slhoW in command on the lines? Was it not one that gentlemen on the other side were run. of unilorm reverses and disasters? Who re. ning the same race of demagoruism which they deemed thn country from those unlrcpitious charged against others. He would now pass on circumstances; this reign of grannydcm? Was to other suggestions. And what did we hear it your old men? Your men of experier.(?fromn the advocates of restriction? Why gentle. Men who had fallen into the sere and 3tlew men had argued all the way throuch on the as- leal? No sir, no, it was not men whose vicor sumption ihat the people will, without conside- had waned. It was your Browns, Scotts, 3)ur ration, nolens volens, act wrong. That is the Croghans, your Izzards, your Perrys, your Mcbasisof all their arguments; an:l therefore they Donoughs, who steppea forth and redeemed wish to throw checks ann guards around the your army from the infamy and disgrace into people to prevent the people from acting wrong. which they had lallen, and not men who had Now on this subject entirely different views were passed the vigor of their days, I:e might almost entertainel, by the opposite sides of the house. say too, their discretion. There was another lie. held that the only proper repository of po. individual (supposed to be an allusion to Gen. litical power was the.eople, who ns a general Scott), who while young, wlhen in the vigor of rule woull act right and take care of their own his laculties, his bosom swelled uith pat iotism interesl3. Why what wasthe length and breadth and he could go out and successfully fight the of' the opposite argumenl? Was it that a man battles of his country: but when his head Le. would go to the poll and vote contrary to his came whitened, when he had obtained all tlnt own interests? Why such n course would he experience in which gentlemtn here contended suicidal. His side of the house held that the there was so much sai'ty, thel found him more 213 distinguished in hanlling the soup!adle than the.twor-l. He asked gentlemen to turn their nt. tcntion to the list of immortal men (f 1776, vwlhose names are affixed to that instrument [ponining to a copy of the Declarat:on of IrdepenJence. What was tne age of the members of the congress of that period? Who were its niost active and influential members? He could show them that it was the men who were under 30 )ears of age. Again, who have been the mo.-t distiniuished men in the service of the people at large? Was it not your men who com. mience.l their career under the prescribed age? At what age did Mr. Clay enter the United States Senate? The charge had been made that he was within the prescribed limit; it has never been denied and we are to assume that it is true. At what age was Mr. Webster when he represented New Hampshire in the great representative bo.ly of the country? Thirty? No, he had not attained that age. At what age was Tompkins when he succeeded to the gubernato. riaL chair of this state? But 32. When our present Governor entered upon his career in another boly in this hall, what age had he attained? But 23. And was lie not then qualified to discharge the duties of Governor, or of every relation of life, or of any station to which his partial country might have elevated him? He was as fit at 24 to discharge the duties of Governor of the stale as he is at this day. At wbal agie was the ex-Piesident of' this state, (Marl in Van i3uron) when lie was one of the leading men in the senate of this etate? He was about 3(I when he took his seat there. He would point to another illustrious instance, which no one would gainsay; he alluded to his ingenious and eloquent triend i'rom Saratoga (Mr. PORTER), whose speech yesterday, so full of argument. so replete with eloquence, so laden down with tropes of poesy, so ornate with figures of rhetoric, led them to believe that he would become one of the most useful members of this body. Didl any one doubt his ability to administer tile atl, irs of the executive office of this state? The exhibition he h!ad affbrded of talent left no doubt on that subject, anl yet the record showed him t.i be under the age of 30. Yet what was the argumnent of that gentleman himnsell? Why speaking of gentlemen ot this body ol foreign birth, he said he saw them coming here with the confileence of their constituents to lay the foundation o the commonwealth anew. Now was not the gentleman from Saratoga here with the confidence of his constituents and by the will of' a ft ee people? By what other right was he there? Was not he at less than the age of 30 there with as much of the confidence of his constituents as he would have been if he were 2 or 3 years old. or? That gentleman was now doubtless in the full vigor of' his intellectual powers, No ater years will strengthen them. He may aid to his fund of knowledge, and to his ac. quaintance with things, but the strength and vigor of' his intelleet will never receive any acquisition in Mr. C.'i judgment. But thele were other propositions to be examined which he thought they should find to be non sequiturs He would begin with the gentleman from Essex who was the very personification of logic, who coul never open i, mnouth without uttering an axiom that was self evident; and what was the propositions he laid down and what we:e the conclusions which were diawn Irotm those irrop ositions? Why if lie was to en ploy a main to do business fi;r him-to carry goods from New York for instance-I.e would like the widestl latitude of selection; ergo the people are to be placed under restrictions. If he was to appoint an a. gent to carry his will into execution he would require the widest latitude of selection; ergo tihe people are to be curtailed. Why this %as evidently a non sequitur, a felo de s', for it destroyed itself. Nor was lis friend fromt New York (Ml. MonRRI) nore happy. He would place chec-s and guards Why? Be. cause the electors are not the people-they nre only a part of the people; ergo the people should not elect their Governor. We are here to pro. tect those that cannot vote; ergo the people should be restricted in their choice ot a Gover. nor. The men who vote act in a represe;itirive capacity; ergo the people should be chcclied and guardel by the constitution. He would bring in widows who have large prci.erty to be protected; ergo the people should not be allow. ed to choose their Governor, only a portion of them. Tie gentleman liom New York went on further to say he would not allow the people to elect ' Jonah's gourds," and therefore restrict. ions were to he placed in the constitution. By all this h1 was reminlded of an ancient syllo. gism-it undoudtedly had its origin in a classic age-which was equally as consistent. " Adam was the first man. Jonah was in the wha!e's belly; ergo Sampson caught tlie foxes." [Lauch. ter.] His fi'iend from Ontario (Mr. WORD:N) had taken the only view of tlie question lhe other day of wh'ch it was susceptible. There was perhaps nothing prat tically beneficial to be attainie.l by it, but as he unlerstood it a great principle was involved, and that was most per. tincntly put by the gentleman from Ontario, who showed that it was the remiais of old fed. eralism. What had been the doctrine of that party while it was in existence? What was the doctrine of Alexander Hamrilton? It was that the people were not to be trusted and that checks and guards must be placed aroui d them and that you sliold elect your Governor for life. T'here was a fear exhibited of too much democricy; when the Governor was to be elected he nmist be ' rich and well.born." Senators too must be elected lor lile for the same reason, for tlle people were not competlnt to govern theimselves. Such was the doctrine of old lederalism; and of a like character were some of' the restrictins imposed by the Convention of 1821, and these who were anxious to ilmpose checks and guards on the elective franchise at any time and under all circumstances were entitled to the term ol 1t deralists-as much at this day us 25 years ago. Look at all the changes niade since 1777 up to the proposed amendments now offered and it uould be seen the people had net gone backward. All the changes have been in favor of popular liberty. All the steps taken have been to secure to the people those rights which were denied to them by the doctrines of Federal concoction. Evidence was afforded of' tte pro. gress of liberal opinions among the people by the fact tat justiaesof the peace awrec now 212 elected by the people instead of being appointed Iby a council of appointment. In that matter leleralism had to give way. Also in the matter of a properly qualification in connection wlhb the elective frianchise. ile would impose no other restriction on the eligibility to the otffice of governor than that of being an elector or one of the people. Beyond that he would trust every thina to the people to make their own selection. But there were other matters to which gentlemen had reflrred; and in relerence to some remarkl male, he said no one would hear him iurge that this Convention hadl not thle power to place guards and checks and restrictions. It doubtless had the power, but it was unwise, unjust and inexpedient to exercise it here. This Convention had to propose to tile people to aduopt or reject; it was for them then to determine iwhether they would send down to the peop!e a liberal constitution compatible with their views to adopt, or one ofarestric live character which the people could not consistently take. He confessed lie was for going to the people with a most liberal constitution.lie was wi'ling to trust the people in the elec. tion of teir officers. lie was willing to have the 170,000 young men of this stale un'-er thirty years of age pass their jumginent on our action, for every gentleman knew that very coon that c'ass.if voters would be the controlling majorily. lie was wvil.ing they should say by their votes what kind of a government they would live under. For himself lie v.-as advanced to the middle period of life, and it was more import. ant to those thant were to follow him than to those whose heads were already whitened with the fi'osts of %winter what the Cons'itution was to be. He would send a constitution emnbo:!ying those liberal principles which he had cher. ished through life. and if the people approved them I:e should be arateful. The gentleman from Sa:.atoga had charged that those who were in favor of the removal of the restrictions were old mcn. N..:w, on looking around, lie found the clharge was untrue-there was no dividing line Mr. C. spoke briefly t;' the ir.telligence of the people and t:'eir fitness to possess the power of electin,. their officers and maannginur their own stale affairs. The School District Libraries had converted them into a reading and thinking people. which had banished the sottish habits which consumed the time with the cider cup and the pipe. They were conversant with and able to trg.-e on the questions of the day and the ab-. stract subject of government. And yet they were not to Le entrusted with sellfgovernment, lest they should elect some green, raw, longlegged gawi.; y of a boy who cannot read or wvriie. tuch was the fear of' he gentleman from LEssex; but the constituents Mr. C. represented woul.l no imore elect a raw boy tlian the gentle. man from Easex would adopt democratic sentiments. Whtile the progress of events in this country hadl led thlem to make changes, they were stigmatized as the " progressive dlemocracy." And there was more in that than was contemplnted. It is an age of progression.Every step is a progressive one, based on increat-ing knowledge amonr the people; and every step had demonstrated that the pepl!e can be entrusted w;ithl the carrying out of the fun damental, radical principles of self.-gcerrn merit. Mr. SIMMONS sahid that having been alluded to so many timtes for muaking certain sugges. tions, whicht had not be,'n answered, he des.'ire'd to say a lew words. lie I.ad throw n,tit the suggestion that the cutting down cf the restriction of 30 years to 21, which was applied alike to native or to nanturalised citizens, would in practice, work to the disadvantage of tl.nat class of our population from whiclh our eminent men emanated-the mniddlling andl the working class of our people. The public men who had been the most successful in our ow n and other states, had sprung from that class and were sell' made; and hence at thle early age to which gentlemen desired to throw open lhie Governorship, they had not acquired that education which would jusilfy them in coming forward, nor col id their fri'inds bring theim forward, till they were 30. If we were to throw open the door thus, it would be an invialticn to young politicians to rally round some individual who had been more lortuniately born and educated; and the cffect wvould be to say that the age of' 30 shall her~alter be preserved lor candidates from among the fahrmers' sons; but if you happen to be born wraltlhy, and get tup by the aid of friends and influence, you may be candidates at 21. The very candidI gentleman who was last up) (Mr. CHrATFILD) had p)rodu. ced a areat manty instances of iper-ons who lit. ie alter 30, had made good public men, and crgo, as lie would say, the doors must be throw n open to persons of 21. That was his logic! Mr. S. did not remember that the gentleman hIad pro. duced any from 21 to 30 to whom the Governorship hadl been thrown open. Mr. S. granted that 32 or 33 would do. lie thought iMr. Jef. ferson was old enough to write the Declaration of Independence, at the tinie lie did write it; Ibut lie tho',ght also that all the gentlemen x I;o had been named, knew more at thirty than they did at twenty.-ifor, and that ihey knew more at forty tihan they did at thirty. He would not, however. go over all ihfat grcund nagin bitl ihe expressed his sorrow that tIhe deLate had tUken a political turn, and tI at the Sentleu:,n from Otsego should have given it lantdlirection IHe must' say lie hlad expected better things fiont lii in. Mr. CHIATFIELD interposed to remind the gentenman from Essex, that if a political turn had been given to the debate, it came from that gentleman's side of' the hi:use. Alr. SIMMONS replied, that he was just go. ing to say. that if' the gentleman fronm Otesgo had given ita political character hlie had -cnre apology in the tact that it. had been comiimenced by other gentlemen. Hie regrel'ld th1at such was the faet. In the course of the first t% o cr three days of the Convenlion. the grcntleman flora Chautauque (Mr. PATTEI.SON.) ',ade the lirst susgestion of politics while we were,electing,r officers. lie wnas in nhopes they should have bent able to co throgh Iheir bustiness without conjuring lip the ghrest of depatt. ed controversies; but the aeetlth'nin had found out that this limitation of age was a remnaint of old federalism. Well, iflthat were so, the o eld federalists were strcngir than he supposed them to be. In the Convention of 1q21, there the arsumption that the great mass of the peox as evidently a majority of them; and in the pie had within themselves sufficient intelligence rttate- of Missouri and Florida, and, in short. — ot that they should all be judg(es and Governearly all over the country, it was so too. lie nors, but to select from that number not merely however, was inclined to think that what the a startling genius, but some one capable of dogtenllerman fromn Utsego meant by fedleralism, ing the duty. He tliought we should never re. was what lie sometimes ca!led old Itunterisin, ally rest on the lbundalion:l' free government an I that it was the new patent liquid.blacking -a government of law as contradistinguished deitocraicy, which applied to thisotherstuf 'the fromt arbitrary will-until we attached much terin of ol(l federalism. In respect to this, lie less importance to otffice, and caume down lo the hal only to remark, lhat lie was naturally con opinion that we had thousands of' men tit lor setvative in his fIelintgs and sentiments, and any office; thai no offttice required nmore thlan one juw-t so far as this and no farther; that when le occupant; and that we couid take turns. When took up a constitution or law that had done we could get the public sentiment to that con-well for years, he thought it had earnel and elusion, so that we could see a great number of gained a reputation for being prima facie right. persons i:t every county and lo% n competent to At all events. It threw on the parly seeking to conduct public athiirs, Ihen he should think there ch inge it the burden of'proving that it was abus was somne rcpublicanism in tile country. He e.l or un.just or dangerous, and to give sonie thought it'less importance was attached to gov. reason why it should be changed. He thought ernnmental talent, they woul.l have a larger lhat was a sounrl principle, and that it should field to select froin. He granted it required a he coutinued until cause was shown to the con. degree of' public inlbrmation which camte aler trary. Now Ihe question was; what is sulffi. the private education was otatined. and at 30 cient cnu-ce? When we produce a good practi. that would be attained. But he had yet to learn cal prool'of a thing-when we prove a parti. that the true qualification of' any othcer depen. cular provision to have stood fora great many dled so much on any splarkling talent lie might years and to le a favorite with the American exhibit, as on the sound, severe acquirements of government every where, we gave prima facie experience. II that was right, then it became proof of its being good and just; and Ihe wanted a mere question of' fact. at what age were the to know if we were to abandon a practical good highest qualificutions for the public otfice.,,tto mere theoretical speculation. It' any one tained! We're they in fact attained before 30? practical evil couldl be shown, very weil; but If not with the general mass, and he went for would mere theoretical Speculation answer the the mass, lie did not wish this Convention to purpose? He had but another remark to make adopt any measure which would give to indian:l tlen he was through. He differed wholly viduals of hereditary means the power to from gentlemen in regard to the value and util- rally round them a class of' friends and turn ity to the public-to democracy or federalism, ipoliticians bel'ore they had acquired a proor whatever else it might he called-and to the f'ession and a station in lilfe. 11' they inlduc. common well'are; lie considered it not use:'ul to eil their young nmen to turn poliiicians, they the state. to have any laws or provisions basedl I would do them great injustice and injury. To on the idea of the imnportance of selecting dis- make a young man Governor before he was tinzuished ta!ent for ottffice. lie thouglhtdistin. thirty, would be to kill himself'. Some had guished talent had done more hurt than good in been made governors early in I1'fe, anti sh fat be. the world. lie thought the knowledge that catre,of them aft'rwardts One stich he had vwan the most useful was the common every day never heard of since. It seemned then, if' we average sense an:l practical knowledge of the recariled the interests of' the inilividuals thenm-.people; and hence lie was afraid of'any preco- selves, we shotuld require tl;eiem first tio do the city-of' any eccentric or cometic star, that business of' life. If' they were professional milit arise in the political firmament. He me.i, let them go through tile rough and t'iL.ble would prefer, Ihe hai no doubt it would be bet- of its labo:s, before they aspired to tile highest ter an I Illnt lite worl'd will soimetime co(ine to it. honors of' the state. It would do) theln good. that the mass of the people. the average bulk of Ilut make them governors first, and they were the peop'e, would be able to take turns in doing immediately laidl on the table, and becanme very the public hiusiness. But if we went on on this small lights. He objected lien to seducing principle of' selecting an; attaching importance youneg tien from theirordinary business; anl I;e to irrmmense talent as to eligibility to office for desired that young men of wealih an.I turnerotis Governorship, by antd by we should get at the conseqltent aIvantages, shouldf be placed on the doctrine which prevailed in monarchies, of not same level with the youtg men who ctiame f;ora selecting their kines out of their own pteople. the body iofour farmers-so that all mi.hth l come lie believe.d the British had to take their kin.s forward at a timne when they iadl acquitred a friom Germany. Now, he was willing to take litile sobriety and experience. Hie hald heartI ours froin our own people. But it' it was re. n~ argument luring the debatle, against 'lIe puhWicanism to cullivatl a general sentiment, aloptlion of this restriction by the Iformer Conn:id enhmo:y it in the organic law of the state, vention, and by the Conveiiitiios of so many that every thing dpen'led on selecting a per. sister states; nor why it should not be retainsona.e of great genius, or shining lalent, atnd ed, unless they were to receive as an ansvwer, Ihiat thunlih a person may be coirnpten for )uh- the very modest assertion tihat it wvas absurJ, lie lif'e at 21,'he is not more so at 30, it was as- scandalous, inlamous, nndl old feJeralism. 'l'iuts umting that to be the cenius of'our institutions then they were to despatch a principle which which was not what he had sulppose,. His had been incorporated into all the ceonsilutuons idea was that republicanism Was founded 9a of this country, from thle earliest period dc"wa to 221 this time-havin;r just found out that all who selves-and how long would it be before a large hadI gone before us, as well as all our contem- mass of our people would be in the condition p,'arics over the Uniled Sltaes, were fools, of the unlettered hordes of the Scythians anil cUmIared wlth ourselves; that they were old Scatl inavian slaves over which Charles XIl ot lcJeralistts, warped by prejudice, alnd incapable Sweden reigned, fas had already been a iuled of' conprelthe;td.r an ar,.umient. But if these to? He wu(uld not compare our people to the restrictions were to justil'y such terms, Ie ignorant serfs, and hence he thought the ligurc thought, before they got through witli the busi- was ani unhappy one. lie would multiply their ness f' this Convention, we shiould finl plenty usefulness by stimu!ating their acquisitions of of' res!rict.ons wh;ch would indicate a distrust knowledge. For this purpose he would not of future generations, as of antecedent ones. simply give them one or two olficers to electlie cwtesselt he never was in a Convention be- lie would give them all that they could elect foare, so di-tintuished fobr modes'y. It was al. compaiible with convenience. lie would not moest equal to the proluiindity of tile arg,,ments say " safely," for he believed all niaiht be safeurg..lc, tLure. They had in their Constitution a ly left witli the people but it was not iconveni.plrovisimi, wIhichi lad tlone well-which in pr-ic- ent for all to be so elected. He thought the gentice w-orked very well; bit the idea was, that tleman from Essex had not looked at this mtitter wve shoald now rise up,, and by speculation and in all its extent. t' e now _ave the peoplesome theo ettcal fancies, strike it out of the Con. 50 officers to elect, and the gentleman trom lksstinit o:, and insert something that will more sex seemed to think if they we:'e at liberty to be nearly square wish the madness of democracy. elected to the highest office under 30 years of 'We iinew it ha.l bIeen adopted by the Conven- age. they would be thus invited to become poll. tin of this state, an I ratified by the ieolple, andl ticians rather than ift' tiis absurd qualihication baj tLie people and conveniionis of other states; were retained. But can nct our young men now but we were all iaicapable of' listinguishing tin go to the polls? andl were they not eligible to absurdiiy-we were old felferalists, and were every offtice but tliat of governor, under 30; and incapable of' compreending an argument! That yet the gentlemian feared that we shou-ld make was the logic of' this whole debate, and it was our young men politicians. The position) was about as respectable as the modesty exhibited too absurd for a man of that gentleman's disthere. tinction. Mlr. CHIATFITELD enquired if the gentleman Mr. SIMMONS asked the gentleman from Otbelieved the people of 1321 would; have reject sego if he thought the school of) poli ics was a ci t.iis constitution provided this restriction was good school for the education of a 3oung man? not in it? He also reminled the gentleman ai' Mr. CHATFIELD replied-that, aimong other the fact that the people had got rid of one fed- things. eral prejudice as exhibited by the rejection AMr. JORDAN moved that the committee rise of the property qualification. and report progress-saying that there were Mlr. S5IMMONS believed if the people con. those in that quarter of the house that desired to ceived it to be a downright absurdity-if' they speak. could have been brought to believe that they The committee refused to rise and report. were in the dark and that they had not got hold Mr. WARI) then said that if there was ot the light of this new born democracy, they any gentleman wlio would state in his place would have been for being converted. that he desired to detain the Convention with Air. CHATFIELD asked if' the people had any further remarks, it now being two o'clock, not by a steady progression discovered many of he would renew the motion to rise, awith a view the absurdities which existed, and connected to a recess until this afternoon. lie was for thern? It was for this Convention to correct having this question taken to-dky, at all evenIs. other unnecessary absurdities. But he dissen. The debate of the last eight days had scarcely tel from another position of the gentleman most touched the question-wfhich was simply be. emphatically. That gent'eman reasoned that 'ween citizenship and 5 years residence. and ci. we were not to invite our youne men to become tizenship and residence of' one year. The whlile politici ns. Now iti this country of' all others, argument, however, had turned (n the ques. it ha.! become a principle of government that tion of age and nativity, both of which had long the people must enquire and examine for th:em- ago been struck out. selves. How did they make men wise? By Mr. JORDAN (didt desire to speak to thlis quesgivint them subjects of reflection and motives ltion, but mainly with a view to show in whiat to reflect. Every time we give a new olfice lo manner this range of discussion had grouin up the people we give them a subject for reflection — insisting that it had grown entirely out of' the an I a motive for reflection. He was disposed proposition advanced here by those who went to increase the knowledge of the people and to against all qualifications, that the people had no increase their usefu'ness by multiplying the in. power to restrict themselves-a positicn many ducements to become acquainted with public afi- felt called upon to combat, and did combat with fairs. This would provide a means of educa. success. Certain gentlemen lhad succeeded,v.ilh. tion which would secure a multitude of men out opposition, in strikine out what they cal.eJ. qualified to be useful in public stations; it certain remnants of federalisnm in the old colnstiwoul.l increase the safety of our institutions by tution-to wit, the qualilication of rge and nasuptplyi:ng nien qualified to protect them. It tivity-but not content with that, they proposed was iecessary too, that we might not retrograde to wipe out all that was left of the teceioi —to in the march of improvemert. Take from the wit, five years residence, and hence, with the in. pecp!e all niotives to examine —remove from cidental topics thrown in, from day to day. all.-them aiaJntcejunent tlact aan juJAge for them. thii dtbatt had artisen. l. J. canelude4 Wlk 223 the remark that he did desire to speak on these questions to.morrow, and particularly to delfend the democracy of '21 aglinst the new light de. mocracy of tie present ldy-l)ut the committee bein? impatient lor the question, he would not urge the point. Several gentlemen expressing a desire to have the question taken nakedly on:he motion to strike out, Mr. W. TAYLOR withdrew his amendment, and The question was put on striking out all thai remainel of section two-citizenship and five years resi lence —and the committee rufused to strike out, 41 to 56. Mr. W. TAYLOR then renewed his motion to strile out and inseit. Mr.PATTERSON thoutht the motion too late. The committee havilig refused to stlike out had determiied affirmatively to retain. The CH A I dlecidel otherwise. Mr. CItOOKER moved to rise and report prcgress. Lost. Mr. W. TAYLOR'S motion was then put and lost. Mr. NICHOLAS asked if it would now be in order to move to restore the qualification of age, by a reconsideration. The CHAIR replied that it was his intention by Iis own rule to permit that-but that on ex. amination it (id not apply. The committe rose and reported progress, and the Convention Adj. to IU o'clock to-morrow morning. SATURDAY, JULY 11. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. HIUNTING1TON. Th2 PRESIDENT laid before the Convention a communication from the Secretary to the Re. gents of the University,in answer to a resolution. lteferre I to the committee on eJucation and con. mon schoo!s, ani orderel to be printed. Mr. TAGGART offered a substitute for the 19th standing rule of the Convention, authorizing a motion lor reconsideration in commiltee of the whole. After a brief conversation it was referred to the committee on rules. hIIA F HOUR RULE. Mr. SWACKHAMER offered the follow. ing:-. Resolved, That no member shall be allowed to speak over thirty minutes to any one question the first time, either in Convention or c,,niniitee of the whole;;id thiit in all siihseqlte.t remarks on the same sutljet, each member having previously spoken, shall be limit. ed to fifteel niintlies. Mr. HOFFMAN sugzested its reference to the committee on rules. He hoped if such a rule was to he adopted, it woul.l be only after the strongest necessity was shown fbr it. Mr. SWACKHAMER said he should like to know if the committee on rules was composed of speaking members? Mr. CHATFIELD, as one of the committee, sail there was one member of that committee who spoke altogether too much-that was him. self. [Laughter.] Mr. SWACKHAMER hoped this important rule would be adopted. He admitted that some question might arise, which would call for a d(eviation from it; but as a general ru!e, it would be foun.l necessary. He would concede to others what le claimed for himself, anl say that all came here with an anxiety to carry out the re. forms that were desirable; but if gentlemen were allowed to speak five or six times on each question,business woulJ be obstructed. Speeches of five minutes often conveyed more information than speeches of five hours. Arain, under this rule, every member would have an opportunity to express his views. We did not want speech. es on political economy, or the first principles of governnient; we wanted practical remarks r:e. garaiay the wish r aal deleire of or coastitu. ents. and the amendments it was desirable to nmake in the Constitulion. Adopt this rule, and he venturel to assert that they would have more general knowledee from among themselves, nni more forom the people, ithan they could get from five to six hour speeches of gentlemen cn this floor, who oflen seemed to keep the mill going after the grain was all out, for the purpose of' seeing the chaff fly. Mr. STRONG remarked, that perhaps every gentleman there had not the same facility of condensing his ideas, as the gentleman from Kings. He always thought that the liberty of speech and the freedom of the press, were fundamental principles of democracy. It might be thiat it would take hitm thirty minutes to say what the genileman from Kings would say in filteen. Un. t(er these circumstances, lie felt compellel to vote against the resolution. Mr. CAMBRELENG, as one of the commit. tee on rules, and as one who had noc troubled the Convention much, hopel the resolution would be referred, not with the view of adopt. inrg it at all, but that some provision mnliht be made to limit the number oft imes that members should be permitted to speak in committee of the whole, which had not yet b en done They had had1 practicaland illustrious examples of the consequences of the adoption of such rules as this in the United Statescongress. The effect of such rules had been to lengthen the sessions of congress some two months. Prior to the adoplion of those rules, no one ever lheard of the sessions of congress going beyond tile Ist July; but now the middle of August woull probably see congress in session. If they fixed the speaking to any parlicu!ar time, they frighlt )ely on it that atthe end of thint tinme, three more speech. es would grow out of it He thought however that there should be some limitatio in commit. tee of the who!e, and he was therefore in favor of this reference. Mr. SWACKHAMER thought there was a reason lor the duration of the present sessit n of congress, the country being ilvolvedl in a foreign war. In reference to the remarks of the gentleman from Monroe (Mr. STRONG) he would say that lhe never allowedl his politic l feelings to iaterfror with his public duties; but if tlh 223 gentleman from Monroe could not say all he had to say in thirty minutes, he should splutter out lls words a little faster, as Mr. S. did. [A laugh.] lMr. IHARRISON said, although he did not hope to see this resolution formlally adopted, >et l.e hoped the members of the convention would atlend to the admonition it contained. Mr. CROOKEt-Ohl, they will all take warn. ing. [Laughttr.] The resolution was then referred as suggested. PlIlVATE GR IEVANCE. Mr. MANN called for the consiJeration of the memorial laid on the table yesterday, from IBurtis Skidmnore, of New-York, and it was talken up. Mr. M. said when lie was up yesterday, his impression was that the memorial should be re. ferred to committee No. 19, but he now thoughl it should go to ti e committee on the judiciary. The gentleman tlrn Westchester (Mr. WARD) yesterday objected to the consideration of this nmemorial at all, because it reflected on the otlicial acts of the c:erk of the supreme court. For that very reason 1Mr. M. thought it ought to be relerredl and referred properly. Mr. NICOLL said it related to abuses which had grown out (if assessments in the city of New York, and he was of' opinion that it shc:uld be referred to the committee on municipal corpora. tion1-No. 14. Mr. SHEPARD thought his colleague mis. app}relhended the communication-it was an accusalion against Mr. IHallet of' corruption in of: fime. That was all there was of it. It charged that Mr. Hallet, as clerk of the Supreme Cou.'t, had taxed the lees of hitmself as commissioner, and allowed himself a large amount of money for nominal services. If that were true, what had this Convention to do with it? We were not here to try individual cases of corruption.The reinedy was through the constituted tribu nals. He moved that the communication be laid on the table. The motion was lost. Mr. N'COLL now moved a reference to commiltee No. 14. The PRESIDENT said the pending motion was to refer to the judiciary committee. Several gentlemen called for the reading of the endorisement of the memorial and the memorial itself, and the Secretary accordingly read the enJorsemcnt, as follows:C('tnmiltiic;lti, o of Hurtis Skidmore of the city of New \ ork, i. relere, ce to the acts of' the Clerk of the Stllir'...c Court il satid city, ill tlici;ltilg;Fs Comnissioller of sb ree!s;tid tii;ling exirav gatiut charges;s such, t;ria aHlearitig Ielore himself as clerk tt Itle Siupr'nie t 'lilri t, Ilitl taxitit his o\nli casots altl cli r;.et;Is U, Iimniiill(er, t;havitlg rte ivedl both til apilnt tents from the s ti!e tribulnl, and acting,s party anid judge at ihe same lime The memorial stated the fact charged in the enlorrenent with more minuteness, and was accompaniel with certai. paritlled av.ertiseatmells Iromr the New Yolk Municipal Gazette. Mr. BROWN understood that the memorial designe I nothing more than to bring to the notice of the Convention certain facts, and not to make any accusation against Mr. Hallet; the facts were, that Mr. Hallet had acted as a com. missioner for the opening of streets, and that as clerk of the Supreme Court he had taxed his fI;es as such commissioner, having recesved both appointments fronm the same tribunalThere was no accusation of liaud or (pl)iession on tie panr of' Mr. lilllet, but a statemenit was made of' lacts, to prevent vhllich for the future, the Convention should make seme provision.He undertook to say in regard to thie clerks of courts that there had been many practices which should be corrected. In his part of the country the sums paid to them had been too great, and the system had operated oppressive ly. It was not the fault of the clerks, but of the Inw, and it was a proper subject for consideratioin and correction. He added that this subject was already tinder the consideration of' tie ju. diciary committee, with a view of providing that an anual salary shall be paid to these clerks, and lie should do all in his power to prevent their touching a dollar of lees beyond their sal. ary. Mr. RICHMOND agreed with the gentleman from Orange. He saw nothing slanderous in the nmemorial, or any charge of corruption; it seemed te be simply a statement of' facts, and. as such should be referred. Mr. MORRIS said the object of the paperwas to inlbrm the Convention of facts upon a matter on which they were acting, and should be properly referred, that the facts stated lmighlt be used. He had been looking to ascertain what committee it would be proper to send it to. Tlls ap. peared to be a question whetheran officer should hold two offices and perfornl the duties of boththe one oftice comling in conflict vwih the other. There would have been none of' this dlithculty if the constitution had provided that the clerk of the Supreme Court should hold no other office of trust an'l emolument. As this was not a judi. cial office, he thought the reference should be to committee numlber six. Mr. CHATFIELD, as chairman of number six, explained why that committee had not ac. ted on this subject; that supposing the judiciary comnittee would bring iu a report in relation to it, they had dlelayed their action until they saw what the judiciary committee would do. 1ie thought this memorial should go there. Mr. MORRIS withdrew his motion. Mr. STOW inqutred il' any other officer than the clerk of the Supreme Court was authorizedt to tax in these cases? Mr. MORRIS replied that there were two others. Mr. STOW then denie:l the right of Mr. Hal. let to make these assessments. By accepting one office he was disabled from accepting the other. Thisnmatter therelore did to some extent involve the cihaacter of Mr. Hallet. lie thought, that i' it were referred at all, it should be referred to committee number six. Mr. RUGGLES was lather inclined to the opinion that this was a personal grievance with which the Convention had nothing to do lie understood it to be a case in which several officers had authority to tax costs, and it would seem that Mr. Hallet had done it, he having authority to do so. But there could be no doubt if' Mr. Skidmore had appealed to the Supreme Court, that a new taxation would have been ordered; for it soenaed lr. H41et had taxed a 224 large amount to himselI. There were provisions of- uav sufficient to correct any abuses or errors of'this sort; it ttieretiire appeared to him that tc Cmnveition was nit called on to act in this inatlef-. The f'acts were now bef'ore the Con. Veuti~ti, an It ithere shiould he anything worthy of consideration, lie ilid not kinow theat there would hie naiy necessity to refer them; but lie repeated there %%erc means of correction elsewhere. Mlessrs. STOW, WARD, STETSON, TILDEN, 8IEPARD, HARRISON, CROOKERl, Fousy Frl and SIMMONS coatiuued the discussion. A~ir. i!'ORSYTH moved to lay on the table. Mr. MIANN said if that motion prevailed he should call up the motion every day to the enrd of the ses-sion. The motion to lay on the table was lost. After some fdrtner conversation the whole subject was referred to the committee on the judiciary. LEGISLATION. Mr. W. TAYLOR catlled for the coasideraticn or his resolution, offered yesterday. Mr.RICIEIMON'Doffered the following am-ead]. ment as an addition, which was accepted by the Mover, and in that sihape the resolution was adopted:*' Anid thiat no hiP) shall pass inoaLaw wiiboat the asseilt ofa it jorit y ofaff 1Iflie ineuhers electedf to each iractic nf the legisi~itiure, to be determined by thme. re. corded tyca;and uoes of the UeiCIberb anld SeatoUis Vo* titig thereon." LIMITATION OF DEBIATE. Mr. SWACKHAMER submitted the following: Res-3ved, Thait the question on all moltions -and resolutions of refereiiCe Lo standing C-minitLees shalt be takV, withouni debate. The resolution was negativel without a di. vision, only 26 voting, in thme affirmative. RULIK TO STritIKE OUT AND INSER P. Mr. SHEPARD gave notice that on Wednesday next. a moition. wou~l be ruade to reconsider the standing rule or resolution whereby a niolion to strike out and insert is declared one and indivizible. 1~~ASAlLTTlES OF THEF CLERGY, &c. Mr. IIARRIS called for the consideration of a memorial of certain citizens of' Albany on thme subject, of' the existing disqualifications of clergyinen and femnales. [lt~s object is to give to clergymen the political and to femnales the nattiral and social righits of' which, the Inc. mnorittlists allege, the present constitution deprives them, by a provision in the new constitution.] A conversation ensued, in wvhich Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. HARRIS an I others, took part. The memorial was then referred lo two several cornrnittees to consider the several parts %which up,-I propriately belong to them. Leave of absence for 8 days was granted for Mr. W. II1 SPENCER. A conversation took place on the subject of the annoyance to the Convention of the noi.,e of vehicles passing through thle adjoin ing thorougfi. lthres. Mr. HARRIS intimated that a remedy would be aPplied by tlhe Commono Cwiatclt The PRESIDENT laid befoire the Conven-.;tion a communication from the Comptroller, showing, the sums paid to the rneinihers oif the Legitslature tluriiig several years —, fin compliance With a resolution-Ref'erred to the committee of the whole having in charge the report oh cuminmittee No. 1. The PRESIDENT also presented a communication from, Jtiaes Ridgley, itt Columbia county, on the propriety of' abolishina capital putnsimneiit-Referred to the committee on the judiciary. TIlEN FXECUTfVE DEPAPTMENT. The committee of thle whole Mr. CHATFIELD in the Chair, again took up the Article on the Executive powvers and dutie-s. The fthird section was read for amendment as follows:-, t3. The Governor and T.ieut. Gove-nor shatl her-. umeif at tie titnasnntd places 'f eluiooitig 14, aeiiwr"S of tlie teciilt lure. 'I tic personis reasp~ctive ly isv ni. itie trijyt st tiiiiiier of votes h~r (3overtior 'and tinit Gotvecitior, sit ft be electedf; fiit ini case two or itotit bti It fuivie ant eqtvi I ittid thte utgly st tinnber i~f vot~s for Governor, * r hir ticuti Gtveriiior, Itie t o Wtti es of' tie Lf-Vis atw ue studil by joinit ailiutt, choste tire oftthe staid persotis so liv i'tiga ii q ut, ata nthIte hilivguct iuinher of votes for Gov'. rnor or Liuti 6ovei tior. Mr. NELLIS proposed to insert "next" bef'ore ''Lerislature.") Mr. DANA thought that would mean not the Ilegislatturechiose n at the same time the Governor was voted for, but. the next,afler thnt. Mr.. RUSSELL said that would be the construction u ndouhtedly. Mr. TILDEN saidl that would he inaccurateas tlhe tIwo houses were not chos-en at the satne time-a 1)0 tion. only of the senate being chosen. annually. Mr. HARRISON proposed (motlilying biis proptositioii at the suvggestion of Mr. JORD)AN) to Say thle two hiousses (if' the Legislature, " at their next annual session shall Jbortlmwith,"l by joint ballot, &c. passe ovter~ation was agreed to, and the section The fourth was then read for amendment as followvs 4 The Governor shialt the general and commannder. Iiachiet' of' aflt ie mitiftita and aitmirat of the navy of tie ~ title tie 4stst ft fave pocer to VotiVeite the fegiss. tatmic (oir tiec sentite tin y) ott cxtriioi diatry oice.itlsii. fHe shut f cotrinimiiiiaie i iiilssiayt to the irgisfaitire m t every session, the cotiditioti of the tttmie;;aiim r, comit m-in.tuitsch tnattttirs toltieiti is lies a ftjiidlc expdittetit. ieft shall i ratisuict ft 1 neee1sstty htikitiiss % itlt fie offiIcers ofItie goct~rmetit, civil a if mil ittry fie tan.,ift *expedtite tilt hl mtctitisurts, its mtat y e resolvid tijititn by the tIgisfatire, atid shtsif take cut e tft 1 the fitws *are Iifiiifu IV xeetiied. He stialt receive for fits servii is th -fuoitnw timopnu nt i itr t hilitsatit itolftrs aitintafty, tii be lia f iii ciptal quiarter y fisymtetits. s,-ix timituirelt,tiif r nira itia ily. tii tie a iti iii equaI qutartei fy Iet ymniits, fir thte cotinpeieisa ttiiti of his piriva e secretay; trin the rent for, aned thie liixes aind iiasssettut it hIn* dveltiiig hioube, Ohat be paid by the Mr TAGGART propor-ed to strike out all after the word " executedI" and to itisert: tic shall at stated times reuceive for his services a comtpettsmiottoit Li e estitfitjliited fly liiw, whici sh~ill twitthtr fe ittreteseid or Clmiii tued duritig the fernt fur whit h he s-haft linve fieen dec cit Mr. TAGGART said his amendment would Ileave the section as it s-tood in the old constitutwan. lie moved it, not upon the principle GI' re 225 taining the old constitution where it could be' done, but because he regarded this fixing of salaries as a matter peculiarly of legislation, and as not belonging to a constitution. He would not bind up the people on such a question, by placing the compensation beyond their reach, through the legislature. Nor had there been so much comp:aint of the salaries nominally paid to public officers. But the subject of complaint was, that they were merely nominal, and that in many cases by reason of fees and perquisites, the actual compensation of public officers was very large, and very uncertain. The commit tee, he thought would have fully complied with the resolution referring this matter of compensation to them, had they merely reported a clause as to the manner in which the Governor should be paid for his services, without specifying what his own compensation should be. And as a general rule, he thought we should find it inexpedient to fix salaries in the constitution. Mr. MORRIS said the committee supposed when this matter of compensation was referred to them, that it was not the understanding that they were to turn the matter over to some other body. But they did not intend to recommend that the compensation should be the amount fixed here-but merely to show what the present compensation was, and to give the Convention something to act upon in fixing a salary which should cover the whole ground. And his individual opinion was that it would be infinitely better that the salary of every officer to be ap. pointed under the new constitution should be incorporated in the instrument itself-that it was part and parcel of the principle of the compact, and should be submitted to the people with the constitution Apprehensions had been expressed, that if this was done, the people, seeing the immense sum which it cost, even under the low salaries now paid, to carry on the government, might reject the constitution on that account.Mr. M. had no fears of that kind. He believed the mass of the people would be found infinitely more willing and desirous to give a proper compensation to their servants, than their representatives in the Legislature. And when this Convention shall have done what he believed it would-tie up the power of the legislature, and limit the large discretion now exercised by them in the passage of such laws as they saw fitthat the legislature, having the more leisure, would spend a great deal of time in cutting down salaries. The people themselves were the persons to say what salaries should be paid to public officers, and they would be better satisfied to have it incorporated in the constitution itself, Mr. TAGGART insisted that the clause to be struck out was far from fixing a definite compensation. Mr. MORRIS replied that this learned Convention had already discovered, he presumed, that this report was not exactly perfect-and other committees, when they came to report, would probably make a similar discovery in regard to theirs. [A laugh.] He did not think it perfect, though it was according to his best judgment when reported. Mr. LOOMIS regarded this question as impor. 15 tant with reference to future action on the sub. ject of fixing salaries-more so than with refer. ence to this office. For there were good rea. sons why his salary and the pay of the legisla. ture should be fixed by the coftstitution-for they constituted the law-making power and would otherwise fix their own salaries. Still) he was prepared to vote for this amendment, and on this principle-the very opposite of that suggested by the gentleman from New-York (Mr. MORRIS)-that the people themselves, through the legislature, could at future times, express more directly their views, than in vo. ting on this constitution. For a vote for or against the new constitution would not express their preferences for one mode or the other of fixing compensation; nor, perhaps, their opin. ions as' to the amount named. Some might think it too high; others too low-and still, re. garding the new as better than the old constitution, as a whole, they might be compelled against their judgments to vote for the sum na. med and for the principle of fixing salaries in the constitution. Better leave the matter open to the legislature, who would be as wise as we were, and the people could more directly act upon the naked question of compensation. Be. sides, he desired to disembarrass the constitu. tion of every question not necessarily belonging to it. This proposition would leave the matter to the legislature, with this restriction onlyand a very proper one in his judgment, consid. ering the influence which the Executive might exert, from, his high station, over the opinions of members-that they should not alter the sal. ary of the governGr for the time being. Better avoid fixing salaries when we conveniently could -so that the people in passing upon the new constitution, might not be embarrassed by such considerations. He desired to see reforms in the constitution, which he feared might be hazarded by inserting too many of these matters which belonged to or might properly be left to legislation-especially matters which circum. stances might require should be changed, and about which men might differ. He would leave it for those'who came after us to provide for the compensation of their own officers, as a general rule. Mr. RHOADES sustained the arnendmentand for the additional reason that there was a disposition to. divest the Governor of an impor. tant part of him duties-and if this were done, it would enable him to devote some time to his private business, and render a high selary less important. If the appointing power for instance, was taken from him, he would have less neces. sity for a private secretary, and would be re. lievedfromaloadofduty. Betterleaveittothe legislature. Thepeople wouldbe bettersatis. fiedwithit. Another reason. Iftbegovernor was to reside here for all time to come,. there might be a reason for continuing this large sala. ry. But the time might come-and it was not far distant, when the Governor would live fur. ther west, where he could live cheaper, where the habits of the people were more simple, and where this salary would not be needed.- Theseat of government might be removed to Oneida, perhaps farther west to Onondaga. Mr.,111CUMOND was of opinion that a mum tant with reference to future action on the sub. ject of fixing salaries-more so than with reference to this office. For there were good reasons why his salary and the pay of the legislature should be fixed by the constitution-for they constituted the law-making power and would otherwise fix their own salaries. Still, he was prepared to vote for this amendment, and on this principle-the very opposite of that suggested by the gentleman from New-York (Mr. MoRRIS)-that the people themselves, through the legislature, could at future times, express more directly their views, than in voting on this constitution. For a vote for or against the new constitution would not express their preferences for one mode or the other of fixing compensation; nor, perhaps, their opin. ions as to the amount named. Some might think it too high; others too low-and still, regarding the new as better than the old constitution, as a whole, they might be compelled, against their judgments to vote for the sum na. med and for the principle of fixing salaries in the constitution. Better leave the matter open to the legislature, who would be as wise as we were, and the people could more directly act upon the naked question of compensation. Be. sides, he desired to disembarrass the constitu. tion of every question not necessarily belonging to it. This proposition would leave the matter to the legislature, with this restriction onlyand a very proper one in his judgment, considering the influence which the Executive might exert, from his high station, over the opinions of members-that they should not alter the salary of the governor for the time being. Better avoid fixing salaries when we conveniently could -so that the people in passing upon the new constitution, might not be embarrassed by such considerations. He desired to see reforms in the constitution, which he feared might be hazarded by inserting too many of these matters which belonged to or might properly be left to legislation-especially matters which circumstances might require should be changed, and about which men might differ. He would leave it for those who came after us to provide for the compensation of their own officers, as a general rule. Mr. RHOADES sustained the amendmentand for the additional reason that there was a disposition to divest the Governor of an important part of his duties-and if this were done, it would enable him to devote some time to his private business, and render a high salary less important. If the appointing power for instance, was taken from him, he would have less necessity for a private secretary, and would be re. lieved from a load of duty. Better leave it to the legislature. The people would be better satisfied with it. Another reason. If the governor was to reside here for all time to come, there might be a reason for continuing this large sala. ry. But the time might come-and it was not far distant, when the Governor would live fur. ther west, where he could live cheaper, where the habits of the people were more simple, and where this salary would not be needed. The seat of government might be removed to Oneida, perhaps farther west to Onondaga. Mr. RICHMOND was of opinion that a map 226 might live there without money; that there was salt enough there to save him. Mr. REIOADES replied, that salt had saved the state an immense amount of money. [A laugh.J It might save all the expenses of governnent. Salt Point, if the capitol was removed there, might save all that was not expended.But the gentleman from Monroe might be look. ing forward to the time when the Executive would reside at Rochester; and Mr. R. presumed he would say that any gentleman qualified tor Governor,and those who would make speeches here were regaided as such, might live there at halt' the amount of the Governor here. He did not know but we might grow extravagant at the west, in the prospect of having the capi. tol there and the Governor living among us. But that he thought not likely to happen. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to add to the amendment" But in no case shall he receive more than $4000 anrual iy." Mr. TILDEN hoped, if we were not going to fix a salary ourselves, as he hoped we should not-that we should neither fix a maximum or minimum. He concurred generally in the views of the gentleman from Herkimer as to the pro. priety of striking out this clause, and restoring the old constitution, which left it to the legislature with a single restriction only-that the salary of the Governor for the time being, should not be altered. There was one case, he confessed, when he was inclined to insert a specific compensation. He alluded to the judiciary. But he saw no necessity for doing it in any other case. Mr. SALISBURY was willing to leave this matter to legislative discretion, within cer. tain bounds. Make the maximum large enough for a fair and just compensation-but put some limit to it-for if there was a propriety in limiting legislative action in any case, why not in this. And he should like to see something definite in this respect, that it might be known what the salary actually was. He did not like this back door to the treasury, in the shape of salaries to private secretaries, rents and taxes. He had drawn up an amendment, proposing that the maximum should be $6000. Mr. LOOMIS: Fix a maximum, and that will always be the sum. Mr. SALISBURY intended the limit should be liberal enough to cover the salary of a private secretary, house rent, &c. He thought the Gov. ernor received as poor a compensation as any officer in the state. Even the clerk of Erie county, he found by the returns, was receiving $6000 a year. Mr. TILDEN remarked, that though we should divest the Governor of the appointing power, in a State like ours, with its steady growth and accumulation of business, the Governor would always have as much to do as any one man could properly discharge. Mr. T. understood that the applications for pardons were about eight a day-and if the Governor had nothing else to do than to pass on all these cases, he would be pretty well employed. We could not and ought not to adopt a rigid rule of compensation-not to be changed by circumstances. Nor did he believe that the Executive duties would be so far diminished as to allow him to devote any portion of his time to his private af. fairs. He was for moderate salaries-yet such salaries as would command the requisite talent. There might be false economy in salaries as well as other things. He would, however, fix no limit-though if any were made, he should prefer $6,000 to $4,000. Mr. WOOD said the past history of the state showed that $4,000 would command the requisite talent-and the price of living was so variable, that some scope should be allowed.He would, therefore, fix a maximum compensation, leaving the legislature to reduce it according to circumstances, and to pay the private secretary a proper compensation. Mr. TAGGART urged that the amount of salary should be established by law; without maximum or minimum being suggested here.And he trusted before the Convention adjourned, we should provide that no officer of the government should receive any compensation, by way of fees or perquisites or expenses, beyond their regular salaries. Mr. PATTERSON thought there was another item of expense incurred by the Executive that had been overlooked here-and that was his postage. He had understood that that had amounted under the old rates to between 7 and $S00 a year. Now, if we were going to fix his salary, all these things shotld be taken into account. His own opinion was'that no man with a family, could live here on $4,000. And if any body supposed the Governor could get along without a private secretary, he had only to step into his room, any day, to be convinced of his error. The applications for pardon alone, were five or six a day. And the applications for cha. rity were even more numerous-for there was scarcely a poor person who happened to get inside of Albany, who did not apply to the Gov. ernor for assistance-thinking that his salary was immense, and that no other beggar had though' of applying. And the cheapest way to get rid of these annoyances was by paying for it. When yo u placed a man in that position, you should take into consideration all the circumstances connected with it. He would not give an extravagant salary; but it should be a just one, and should be enough to command the requisite talent. Whether we paid it or the legislature, he cared little. But if we were to fix it, he desired that members should vote under. standingly. Mr. WOOD thought $4,000 would be a fair salary for the Governor. His stationery, post. age, secretary, &c., he would have provided for by law. Mr. STETSON asked the mover to change the phraseology of his amendment, by striking out the words "during the term for which he shall have been elected," and to substitute "af. ter his election, and during his continuance in office." Mr. TAGGART assented to that-[and it became part of his amendment.] Mr. TALLMADGE asked indulgence whilst he attempted to bring the question back where it should be-to a discussion of first principles, such as belonged to a constitution-and not of the minute details which belonged to legislation. 227 That he might not be misunderstood, he would say that he thought the committee did right in reporting on this question of salary —for the matter was expressly referred to them, and it was in their discretion to recommend a specific salary or some general provision for the arrangement of it. Again, that he might not be misunderstood, in the remarks he was about to submit, he intended no quibbling about the precise amount stated here. Four thousand dollars was little enough. He who received it should be worthy of it, be it more or less. But he must say this in regard to allowing the rent and taxes on his dwelling house. Often, they rented furniture, either from the owner of the house or the manufacturer-and that might double the expense of the house alone. lie mentioned this to show that if we were going into the details of this matter, we should have to go further still. Again, whilst he objected to going into this detail of salary in this case, his own judgment was that if we freed the legislature from fixing their own salary, we should have gone far enough in the matter of compensation. That done, they could be safely left, under the reservation suggested in the amendment. And it would be scarcely respectful to the legislative branch, were it practicable or necessary for us to undertake, in the constitution to regulate all the details of government. The first constitution stood from 1777 to 1800-the next from that period to 1821 —and that of 1821 had stood until this time. Might we not entertain the hope that the constitution we were engaged in franming, would stand the test of another quarter of a century? And was it not arrogating too much for us to attempt to fix all these details of salary? We came here fresh from the people of to. day; but not from the people of twenty years hence. In his judgment it would be arrogating to ourselves more than was discreet. to attempt to say what the Governor's salary should be for the next quarter of a century. But he was against exercising this power, to do which intelligently,we must go into all these minute cal. culations of postage, and house-rent and taxes, &c., &c.-and he thus early expressed his re. gret that it should be proposed. But it was a radical defect that there was no prohibition in the clause as it stood, against this salary being altered, directly or indirectly, during the term for which the Governor shall have been elected. That was a great principle, and should not be lost sight of here He had seen lobbying mem. bers active on behalf of an Executive, to raise his salary by a law passed during his term. Whatever we did, he urged that we should preclude that, by saying that the compensation once fixed should not be altered so as to affect a Governor during his term. Never let him be found catering for pence in the lobby of the legislature. But should we effect this ob. ject by fixing a salary, and providing for houserent and taxes, and yet saying nothing about furniture? Might there not be room for catering there? He had no allusion to any body in this; his remarks were general. His object, and his only object, was to prevent the Governor's salary being altered during his term, either from motives of gain on the one hand, I r of hostility on the other. And hence it was that he would place a land-mark here as between the Executive and the legislature. Besides, as regarding this matter of postage, he was quite sure every officer of the government had his postage on official letters paid by the state. From the days of Geo. Clinton down to the pre. sent hour, there had never been a question a. bout it. It went to the contingent expenses of each department, and never burthened the individual. But this was a matter of detail that was not worthy the attention of the Convention. Our business was with principles-general princi. ples-not with mere legislative details. The amendment proposed was precisely the old constitution-and in one particular certainly very properly. It spoke not of salary, but of compensation. A fixed salary was one thingthe perquisites another and different thing.Hence the importance of this word compensation, which covered the entire receipts of a public officer, for official services-and this compen. sation being once fixed by law, as it should be, not by constitution, there would be no room for abuse by way of increase or diminution during the term. But that matter should be left to the legislature His constituents no doubt, would prefer to have a direct voice ini that matter, through the legislature, from time to time. They might not be opposed to $4000 now. On the other hand, he had no hesitation in saying that a man who would serve for less, should serve for nothing-for he would not do it unless a man of wealth, and then perhaps he ought to serve for the honor of it. But it was all important to place the Governor independent in point of salary of the legislature-that if he felt called upon to veto any measure, it should not be in the power of the legislature to say, if you do, we will reach you through your salary. The Executive should be in a position to overlook, calmly and without fear or favor, the whole field of legislation, and every agency in the state, and should not be placed as it were at the mercy of the legislature; so that in high party times, he might be above the influences that might be brought to bear on him from that source, and on the other hand, the legislature might not be beset by the friends of the Execurive, to raise his compensation. Better hold it where it is, above all better hold on to this phrase compensation-and to the principle that this compensation should not be altered during the term. Mr. WARD briefly expressed his preference substantially for the old constitution in this res. pect, as proposed by the gentleman from Gen. essee. Mr. SWACKHAMER remarked that the sug. gestion that the salary of the Governor might be increased in the shape of a provision for furniture, was a. good reason why there should be some limit bixed. He should be willing to say that his salary should not be more than $6000: nor less than $5000. Mr. BASCOM disliked this idea of a maximum. That was the way in which a great ma. ny salaries were fixed-for very soon the maximum became the settled amount. He should be glad to see salaries fixed in the constitutionbut there was force in the remark of the gentle. man from Dutchess, (Mr. TALLMADGE) that if our constitution was to endure for a quarter of 228 a century, we could not see the contingencies that might arise requiring changes in this respect. If we were to have a convention regularly every ten years, then there might be a pro. priety id fixing salaries. As it was, the proposition of the gentleman from Genesee was the safe ground-without maximum or minimum. Mr. BRUCE was entirely opposed to leaving any part of this to the legislature. He was for fixing the salary of the Governor in the consti. tution. Gentlemen seemed to imagine that we were making a progressive constitution. Mr. B. conceived that it was to be the ground-work of law as long as it endured, and if circumstances required that it should be altered, let the people set to work and remodel it. He was averse to leaving this matter of salaries to be a topic for party agitation by party demagoguesfor nothing was easier than for them to raise a cry about high salaries, to draw off public attention from important issues, and make our elections hinge on some mere abstraction of this sort. He would make a plain matter-offact instrument of this. He would have every thing fixed in it, with no room for additions, under pretence of house rent or furniture or by perquisites. At the same time, he was not prepared to say what the salary of the Governor should be. He was willing that it should be liberal and ample, but he wanted it fixed and known. Mr. SALISBURY was decidedly in favor of fixing a limit beyond which the legislature should not go in the way of salary or compensation-and he would have that limit include every thing-and include fees or perquisites of every kind or description. He approved of the amendment of the gentleman from Genesee, as far as it went-but it left the matter too much at the discretion of the legislature. He thought it our duty to guard the treasury in respect to salaries, as well as in every thing else. And he should be very much disappointed if this body did not put some wholesome restraints on the legislature in regard to the expenditure of the public money. And he would begin with this matter of salaries. He had no objection to a maximum ot $6000, but he wanted some limitation. Mr. DANFORTH agreed substantially with the two gentlemen who had spoken last, that the compensation of the Governor should be fixed by the constitution. He would do this as one means of relieving the legislature from some portion of their duties. The complaint was that they had too much business. Such were the complaints that reached him, and he believed that his constituents expected him to aid in placing checks and guards-he believed that was the phrase, (Mr. MORRIs-That's it,) on the legislature, in reference to expenditures of the public money particularly. They did not believe the legislature was in a condition from year to year to have the purse-strings of the state in their hands without any restriction. What portion of the sessions of the legislature might not be occupied in fixing salaries?-espe. cially of the Governor, if he should happen to be of the party opposed to the majority in the legislature-a ease that might arise. He would guard against such a contingency, by fixing the salary iu the origanic law, and submitting it to the people. They were looking for it, he ap. prehended, not only in regard to the Governor, but the state legislature and the judiciary. He repeated, we should sustain the report of the committee, so far as it fixed the salary-the precise amount he had not determined in his own mind. Mr. WOOD'S amendment fixing the maximum at $4,000, was negatived. Mr. SALISBURY then proposed to fix the maximum at $6,000. Mr. DANA proposed $4,000 annually for the governor, and $600 annually for his private secretary-but the motion was ruled out of order. Mr. SIMMONS proposed to add to the amend. ment: — ' But such compensation shall in no case be less than $2,500 nor more than $5,000 per annum." Mr. SIMMONS thought $5,000 would be a proper sum, but he did not want to fix the limit at such a sum as to induce the going up to that limit; he would therefore fix $5,000 as the maximum and $2,500, the halfof the maximum, as the minimum. He wished to guard also against such a squabble as once occurred in Kentucky, where the legislature, desiring to legislate out of being a co-ordinate branch of the government, reduced the emoluments to 25 cents. He thought $5,000 would be enough, and the gentleman from Chautauque would perhaps bear in mind that applications for charity were somewhat in proportion to the known income of the person appli. ed to. It would be better to reduce the salary down to the Governor's wants. He should be well enough satisfied to fix a round sum, but that would be a little inconvenient-they could not carry the analogy through: there are a thou. sand offices and if they fixed one they should go through the whole list. He had no distrust of the legislature and he was satisfied that the legislature would fix a reasonable limit. Mr. MORRIS thought there was reason why the Governor's salary should be fixed, if no others were. The Governor by the exercise of the veto power for instance, might occasion a conflict with the legislative branch, and thus these co-ordinate branches of the government might be coadjutors against each other. [Laughter.] There might be another good reason why it should be fixed, for they had heard in the course of a debate this morning that it was a very improper thing for a man to tax his own costs. One gentleman had proposed $2,500, but no man could be got for that who was fit to be a Governor. A man certainly might make money at that rate if he lived on crackers and cheese and slept in the park (laughter); but such a man would not be fit to be Governor of the great state of New York. It was true they could arrange it so that the legislature should not reduce the amount during the term for which he is elected. But there were some of them there old enough and not very old either, n)t to have forgotten that there are sometimes high conflicting party scenes. Some conflicts have occurred between a Governor and a legislature. It should be remembered that in a legislature there have been such things 'as accidental majorities and they have sometimes felt that after a coming election they would have to remain at home, and that the Governor they had been 229 fighting with would be re-elected, and therefore if they had the power to reduce his salary, they might be induced to do it; for they might talk of the delegated power of the elected as much as they pleased, yet they were all possessed of the ordinary feelings of human nature, and these would sometimes block up the cense of justice and integrity. To guard against that-to guard against the consequences of that irritation which such a legislature might feel towards a man for doing his duty-doing that which would make him -popular with the mass and secure his re-election-for going counter to their wishes, they might determine to cut his comb by reducing his salary -if they could not prevent his re-election, having the purse-strings, they could starve him-to guard against that, if there was one officer more than another to be appointed under the constitution, whose salary should be fixed. it was the Executive of the state. The next was the legislature. He would tie both up. He should vote against all these amendments, expressing the hope, however, that his learned friend (Mr. SIMMONS), who believed that $5,000 was not too much, would put that in. Mr. STETSON expressed his obligations to the gentleman from New-York (Mr. MORRIS) for the speech he had made, in which Mr. S. fully concurred, except so far as it went for fixing salaries. He agreed that in such a contingency as a conflict between executive and legislative power, vindictive feelings might be engendered and the legislature might attempt to rut down the salary of the Governor for his MONDAY, Prayer by the Rev. Mr. HUNTINGTON. HOUR OF MEETING. Mr. CHATFIELD offered thefollowing:Resolved, That after to-day the daily sessions of this Convention shall commence at nine o'clock in the morning. Mr. SIMMONS said it seemed to him this would be more proper after the reports of committees were all in. The afternoon, with the extreme heat of the weather, would be worse than useless to a committee, for it would have an unfavorable effect on the spirits and on reflection. He was of opinion the resolution had better lie on the table for a week. He wanted a little time to think of his duty in this Convention; for there was less advantage in declamation in this body, than in consideration out of it. He moved to lay it on the table. Mr. F. F. BACKUS hoped the resolution would be adopted. If they were there from nine to a quarter to two, that time might be sufficient for all the purposes of the Convention. The motion to lay on the table was lost. Mr. STRONG had no objection to meet at nine o'clock; but he thought they should provide for an adjournment at one o'clock. He moved such an amendment. Mr. CHATFIELD hoped there would be no restriction of that kind, for the majority had al. ways that under its control second term. He had, therefore, suggested this change of phraseology so as to prevent any such change "during his continuance in office." This was the language used in the Missouri constitution, and he was of opinion would accomplish the object. The question was then taken on the amendment of Mr. SIMMONS, and it was negatived. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to add to the end of the amendment of the gentleman from Genesee (Mr. TAGGART) the words. " the annual compensation shall not at any time exceed $6,000, nor be less than $5,000." Mr. TOWNSEND thought that would meet the objections of several gentlemen, for that was about the rate of fluctuations of money at times. The amendment was lost. The amendment submitted by Mr. TAG. GART was then agreed to, 65 voting in tkl affirmative-the negatives not counted. On the motion of Mr. CROOKER the comr mittee rose, and reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. Mr. JORDAN offered a resolution in relation to the noise occasioned by the passing of carria. ges through the streets, and contemplating an appeal to the Common Council to diminish the annoyance. Mr. HARRIS appealed to the gentleman from Columbia to let his resolution lie on the table as his object would be accomplished without any further action. Without taking any question thereon, on the motion of Mr. LOOMIS the Convention adjourned to Monday morning at 10 o'clock. JULY 13. Mr. STRONG withdrew his amendment. Mr. SIMMONS said if they were to meet at nine, there was no use in throwing away the in. termediate hour between the breakfast time and 9 o'clock. He thought they had better come in at 8 o'clock and adjourn at 12; but it was a very bad apportionment to come here at a time when it was beginning to be very hot. No man would do his own business at home in such a manner; no man whose business depended on the exercise of mind. If we met at 8 o'clock and sat till 12, we might by and by meet again at 3 o'clk. To that he had no objection. He moved so to amend as to fix the hour of meeting at 8 o'clock, and on that he would call the yeas and nays. Mr. CHATFIELD had personally no objection to that; he could come as early as the gentleman from Essex-even at 5 o'clock, if necessary. He however had fixed 9 o'clock, because he believed that was as early an hour as the majority could be got there. He had several times attempted by resolutions to expedite the business of the Convention, but gentlemen had interposed objections, and appeals had been made to wait. Now when were they to get rid of this eternal answer-by and by? The gentleman from Essex now wanted a delay of a week; but Mr. C. apprehended the time had come when they should expedite business. If it 230 was to be 8, well 8 be it then; but he feared the majority would not be got there at that time. Mr. SIMMONS was a little too far advanced in life to go off on the impulse of the moment; but he thought it was due to the people that they should have the best time of the members of the Convention. If they came there at 9 o'clock, there was an intermediate hour from the breakfast time of which no use could be made. But if they came at 8 o'clock they would be able to devote 4 or 5 hours to their duties, and they would then have time to read over their documents out of the House. They could not make a constitution any more than they could do ordinaiy legislation, by simple debate. Now hith. erto he had not had time to read all his documents and yet where he lived he was called a man of some industry. He hoped they should come at 8 o'clock and adjourn at their discretion -whether at 12 or 1 o'clock, and then in the afternouu they could get prepared for the ensuing morning's business, and get some new ideas; thereby relieving them from the necessity of repeating those already uttered. Mr LOOMIS had felt for some time impressed and strongly impressed with the great necessity devolving on the members of this Convention to be diligent in their business. He was forcibly struck with the remark of the gentleman from Kings the other day, (Mr. BERGEN,)-that we at that time had but 102 working days. Now we have but 96 from this time to the election. It they struck out 2 days, leaving only one calendar month for consideration by the people, they should have but 4 days to devote to each of the reports of the committees, and here they had been more than a fortnight on 2 or 3 sections of the first report made by a committee. Six weeks of the session have elapsed and less than one fourth of the committees have re. ported. This delay might lead them to the conclusion that these reports would come remarka. bly well considered by the committees, and there. fore less consideration might be necessary on the part of the Convention. He nevertheless thought they should spend their afternoons in other duties than those of the sessions of the Convention, but he was willing to meet at as early an hour as the convenience of members would permit. He would not consent yet to hold afternoon sessions as suggested by the gen. tleman from Essex, until the committees had / time to complete their reports. Mr. SIMMONS explained that the gentleman from Herkimer had misunderstood him. Mr. LOOMIS then passed to another point in connection with the discussions here. He had been pained to see the latitude which had been taken in debate, much of it being irrelevant to the immediate question before the Convention, for the last two or three weeks; and he hoped they might hereafter find that the occupant of the Chair would feel himself compelled to limit the debate to the subject under debate. He desired to see these subjects fully discussed.They are never too fully discussed so long as they were confined to the question-for such debates are almost always short necessarily.If members would take these views-if they would see the necessity of abridging these dis. cussions and consuming no more time than is necessary to a full and free discussion, if they met at 9 o'clock they should have prouably a proper adjustment of their time. Mr. RUSSELL objected to the amendment to fix 8 o'clock as the hour of meeting. He thought it would be impracticable, or at least extremely inconvenient, for most of them breakfasted at half-past 7 o'clock, and therefore those who liv. ed far from the capitol could not be here at that time. He thought, as they could not at all times hear all that was said in the course of their debates, that the morning hour from 8 to 9 could be very profitably occupied in reading and reviewing the debates of the preceding day in the daily newspapers. Mr. STETSON moved the previous question. Mr. SIMMONS said he did not desire to press his motion against the wishes of the house; he therefore withdrew it. The resolution was then passed fixing the hour of meeting at 9 o'clock. COUNTY SUPERINTENDENTS. Mr. PENNYMAN offered the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That committee number seven be instructed to enquire into the expediency of abolish ng the office of county superintendent of common schools. TAXATION OF PERSONAL PROPERTY Mr. MURPHY offered the following:Resolved, That the Comptroller be requested to cause to be prepared and furnished to this Convention, a statement showing the am ount ol the capital stock actually paid In, and secured to be paid in, of the m,,neyed or stock corporations deriving aiu income or profit. from their capital or otherwise, including Iree banking associations, and having their principal office or place for transacting their financial concerns in the city and county of New York; and also showing what portions of such capital stock are held by persons residing respectively in the said city and county, elsewhere in the state of New York, elsewhere in the United States, and by persons residing out of the limits of the United -tates, and also the amount of such stock it any belonging to thL state, and to incorporated literary an I charitable institutions; and that such stae. ment distinguish the amount so held in each of said corporations and associations. Mr. TAGGART said he should like to hear some reason for calling upon the Comptroller for all the information contemplated by that resolution. Mr. MURPHY said there were various reasons. They were approaching a discussion when it would be well to know how much of the stock of the incorporated companies of this state are held elsewhere than in this state. His particu. lar object in offering this resolution was in regard to the duties of the special committee, which was raised on the motion of the gentleman from New York (Mr. MORRIS) who propo. sed, for the consideration of this Convention, a proposition to be inserted in the constitution to tax personal property where it was used and not at the domicil of the owner. There are in the city of New York many incorporated compa. nies and associations, the capital of which is not all held by the people of the city of New York, but by persons residing elsewhere, in the state and out of the state and out of the United States. The capital of those companies and associations exceeds thirty millions of dollars, which is assessed in the city of New York. That city has drawn together that capital and she enjoys the 231 benefit of it, and he was willing she should; but that had not been offered in committee of the some nevertheless might object that after hav- whole. ing drawn in all this capital from all other parts The CHAIRMAN replied in the negative. of the state, she should have the right to tax Mr. STOW said he understood that to result other property which is now exempt from her from a special rule of the Legislature and of taxation. congress, and not from the parliamentary law. Mr. TAGGART was satisfied with the ex- He wished to call the attention of the committee planation to this subject and to intimate his opinion that Mr. TOWNSEND suggested-while he did they would find it necessary to depart from the not object to the resolution-that it should be rule they had established in this respect. He narrowed in its details or it might require so should now move, for the purpose of having long to prepare an answer that it would be use- the opportunity to renew it hereafter, to strike less for all practicai purposes when it should come out of the 3rd line of section 4, the words or the in. Senate only. His object was, that if they adopMr. MURPHY replied that the Comptroller ted what it appeared to be the inclination of the had already a list of all these companies and as. Convention to adopt-though he was not fully sociations, and by addressing a letter to them in favor of it-that the Senate shall not partake severally, they could furnish all the required in. of the appointing power, then the provision to formation without much trouble. convene the Senate was useless and ought to be TAc -usolution was then adopted. stricken out. Mr. MORRIS said as he understood it, the Mr. RUGGLES presented the following which Mr. MORRIS said its he understood it, the had been forwardeeed thim from a highly rereal object of the learned gentleman was, to be spectable gentleman. It was on the subject of prepared to make this article comport with sub. taxation, which is already before a committee sequent articles of the constitution that might be taxation, which is already before a committee j " of the Convention, but there were some sugees. a opted. tions which were not yet referred and therefore Mr. MORRIS then stated that when the he desired this resolution to go to that committee. The resolution was referred to the 2nd mittee shall have got through this article he in. standing committee as follows:- tended to move that any further action be sus-, pended until the Convention shall have passed Resolved, That it be referr' d to the standing corn- upon other articles, and for the reason he asiniitee nurrber trno,to inquire into the expediency of signed when he introduced the article now beadopting a permanent and uniform system ot taxation, which shall operate equally upon all classes of citi- fore the committee, namely that he had no doubt zerns, which shall regard actual property, whether the action of the Convention on other articles rce.l or personal, including all debts cue from solvent would make it necessary to alter this in some debtors, as the only legitimate object of taxation;- respects Therefore to give an opportunity to which shall define what is real and. hat is personalore o ge a oo o property, and shall take from tie legislature i he power do that he should ask that this article as amenof converting the nne into the other, and thereby inter- ded by the committee of the whole be laid on fering with private and vested rights-which shall pro- the table without granting leave to sit again. tect the citizen against double taxation In any form or STOW that ws nl another mode under any pretence whatever-which shall secure to r. W sa was only anoermo resident citizens the right to be assessed for heir per- of arriving at the same result; yet he did not sonal estate in the city, town and county where they see how, according to the rules under which they reside and not elsewhere-anid which shall assert and were acting they could arrive at this or any ferpetuate the principle of assessing all property at were actir n its full value subject however to a deduction on acother amendment, unless they were offered in count of any debts which the owner may in goid faith committee of the whole. He did not wish to have contracted and be liable to pay; so that each one press his motion further than was necessary to may bear his due proportionate share of the public keep it within his power to offer it hereafter. burtiens according to the value of what he really Mr. TLLMADGE denied that they could possesses. Mr. TALLMADGE denied that they could not move in Convention amendments which had Mr. SHEPARD moved that copies of the not been offered in committee of the whole. He. journal of the Convention be transmitted to briefly explained the position which he assumed. the corporation of the city of New-York, as the Mr. W. TAYLOR made some remarks on the same is published. He explained his object to same subject. be to furnish the information it contained for the Mr. STOW said that having accomplished his use of the Convention sitting in the city of N. object he would withdraw his amendment. York to revise its charter. Mr. FLANDERS moved to strike out " The The resolution was adopted after being amend- Governor shall be general and commandered in several particulars, one of which provided in.chief of all the militia, and admiral of the for the transmission of the documents as well as navy of the state'' and insert the " The Goverjournal, at the close of a conversation in which nor shall be commander.in-chief of all the mil Messrs. SHEPARD, CONELY, PATTER- itary and naval forces of the state." SON and some others took part. The amendment was agreed to. EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. No further amendments being offered to the 4th, the committee passed on to the fifth sec. The Convention went into committee of the tion, relating to the pardoning power. whole on the article reported by committee No. The Secretary then read the fifth section as five, in relation to the powers and duties of the follows: Executive, Mr. CHATFIELD in the chair. Mr. STOW wished to enquire before they 5i. The Governor shall have power to grat reprieves passed from the fourth section, if they would be an prdos t covo for all ofenc sept treason and cases of impeachinen He may commuste at liberty to move amendments in the House sentence of death to imprisonment in a State prison for 232 life. He may grant pardons upon such conditions, and with such restrictions and limitations, as he may think proper. Upon conviction o/treason, he shall have power to suspend the execution oj the sentence, until the case shall be reported to the Legislature at its next meeting, when the Legislature shall either pardon or direct the execution of the criminal, or grant a further repriere. He shall in his annual message communicate to the Legislature each c se of reprieve, commutation and pardon granted since the next previous annual message of the Governor, stating the name of the convict, the crime of which he was convicted, the sentence and its date, and the date of the commutation, pardon or reprieve. Mr. STEPHENS offered to amend by inserting the following at the end of the 10th line, after the word " reprieve":After the word "reprieve," in the 1Othline, insert as follows:-" Rut no reprieve, pardon or commutation shall he granted except notice of the application therefor, with the grounds or reasons thereof, and the names of the applicants be given for two weeks prior to such applic-tiou, in such manntr as the Le-islature shall deLermine " Mr. STEPHENS said he owed it to himself to say that the amendment was prepared by a friend and colleague (Mr. NICOLL), who had requested him to offer it for him, his colleague being absent. He did not say this with any wish to be understood as disapproving of it, for he thought it was creditable to his colleague. It was necessary that there should be some restraint placed on the pardoning power. It was an axiom that the certainty of punishment was a greater preventive of crime than its severity and as the tendency of our laws is, and as he thought properly towards mildness, it was the more necessary that punishment should be certain; but as the law now stands there is no certainty. The prison statistics according to the report which had been made to the Convention, showed that during the last 10 years 60 persons had been sentenced to imprisonment for life; the average term of imprisonment of persons sentenced for life was 7 years. The pardons of those confined for lesser terms averaged 1 to 18. Now he meant no imputation on the Executive of this state, nor those who preceded him. He knew the difficulties of their position and the influences that were brought to bear on them. He knew that prayers and tears assailed them, but there must be a remedy and this resolution goes as far as it can to ensure a remedy. In the first place it requires the publication of a notice of every application to the Governor. As the law now stands the proceedings are entirely secret and altogether exparte. The convict himself or his friends prepared a statement of his vase which was always a favorable one frequently exaggerated, and often false. And in. stances had occurred of the application resting upon forged papers throughout. The distinguished gentleman who now occupies the Executive chair, in his report to the Convention, has called attention to the great extent to which this exparte business iscarred. He states expressly that while the applications for pardons last year, amounted to 700, but in 16 were there any remonstrances or opposition, or unfavorable proceedings of any description; and of the rest the whole were placed in the hands of the Executive, and perhaps acted upon by him without any knowledge of the pendency of the applica. tion to the parties against whom the wrong had been committed, and without being known to the people of the state. Now it was monstrous that a convicted felon-a man who had the be. nefit of the wise provisions of our laws, and of the tribunals of the country-who had a learned judge to preside at his trial, and the aid of learned counsel, with the privilege of examining his own witnesses-that such a man, after being thus tried and found guilty and sentenced to punishment, should then come forward, and on the statement of himself or his own friends, should be again let loose on the community to commit crime anew. It is a mockery of the court that tried him-a mockery of the witnesses who proved his guilt, of the paraphernalia of justice, of the citizens of the state who incurred the expense of arresting, prosecuting and convicting him. A pardon to his mind was in some sense equivalent to a satisfaction of a judgment in a civil suit, and it should never be adjudicated but in presence of all the parties. This notice which his amendment proposed, would bring it to the knowledge of all to whom the wrong had been done, and would afford them an opportu. nity to make their statenent. There was no doubt that in many of these applications f r pardons the circumstances set forth were false; but if the wronged parties had an opportunity to be heard they might show that the case stood precisely as at the trial-that no one solitary feature had been changed to alter the position in which the prisoner stood-and that they were no more entitled to a pardon from the Executive than they were to a verdict from the jury. But the resolution contemplates something farther. It not only requires the publication of notice of the application, but a statement of the grounds or reasons on which it is founded, with the names of the applicants. This would bring the whole case under the authority of responsible names to the bar of public opinion. At present, applications are handed round and men of re. spectability are found from carelessness willing to oblige, and very often from a real feeling of sympathy for misery even though they knew it to be the result of crime, who are willing to sign. Politicians also are a class of men to whom such papers are presented, and perhaps in many cases they sign recommendations for pardons as they do recommendations for office -the chances being a thousand to one that it will never be known that their names are signed to the application. The secrecy with which the whole is done invites and encourages carelessness and recklessness; but if men knew that the whole case was to be put before the public they would pause, and no man who de. sired the good opinion of his fellow citizens would incautiously ask of the Executive to throw open the prison doors, and let loose again upon society a convicted felon to prey on the public. He would pause before he put himself in such a connection before his friends and neighbors. This would cut off many applications to the Executive for pardons, and there would be no such thing as exparte adjudications. With these observations be submitted it to the con. sideration of the committee. Mr. CROOKER suggested that the amendment should not come in at the place designated by the mover. 233 Mr. MURPHY concurred in the views of the gentleman from New-York, as to the pardoning power, and the propriety of some limitation being given to it. They had all seen the evil of politicians and others, who might be supposed to have some inlluence at Albany, joining in these recommendations for pardons; and when the pardons had been obtained, and the community was stirred up by the pardoning of the guilty, they were the first to join in a hue-and. cry against the Executive, for granting the pardon. But it seemed to him the provision submitted did not meet the evil, and therefore he asked the mover to accept the following amend. ment, to carry out his own proposition. Insert after the word " applicant" —" and other persons recommending the same, directly or indirectly." Mr. STEPHENS accepted the amendment. Mr. MURPHY continued: The amendment, as proposed by the gentleman from New-York, required that the names of the applicants for pardons should be published for two weeks prior to the granting of the same. Now the term " applicant"' is too limited a term, for there were many persons who would approach the Executive by letter or in other indirect ways, who were not strictly " applicants." but who, nevertheless, had strong influence with the Executive. He wished to include all who, wheth. er directly or indirectly, recommended the Governor to pardon convicts, and that publicity should be given through the newspapers, that the community might know who there were in high or conspicuous places who would join in procuring the release of felons. He would also suggest that the notice should be published at the place of trial and conviction. Mr. RUSSELL suggested that a general provision only should be inserted in the Constitution, and that the details should be left to legis. lation, as there would be great difficulty in carrying them out by the Constitution. Mr. BASCOM said, if it was proper to entrust the Governor with the pardoning power at all, it was proper that he should be left without a prescribed rule of practice to guide him in the exercise of it. He could see that not only inconvenience and difficulty, but expense would be the result of this proposition. No doubt the proposition might throw difficulties in the way of making applications, so as to reduce their number; yet the gentleman had failed to see that if it required the Governor to give 700 or 800 notices to district attorneys, of these appli. cations, there would arise a new system of pro. fessional practice in the state The district attorneys were to be notified-for what purpose? Why, such a notification wouldl e in fact a rule to show cause why the pardoning power should not be exercised. And could it be supposed that they would fail to show cause against ap. plications for pardons, and that their fees and travelling expenses would not be heard of when their annual bills were allowed. Another proposition was, that these notices should be pub. lished in the newspapers of the county. Were gentlemen aware that the publication of legal notices and the laws of the state, were swell. ing up their expenses to a considerable amount, and for very little good. And this proposition would not only do that, but serve to make our district attorneys a perambulating body, to op. po-e applications lor pardons in every petty case of crime. He hoped no such rule of practice would be provided by the Constitution.The Governor himself would doubtless regulate such matters; and where he does entertain an application for pardon, he will give proper notice to the tribunal that convicted, and afford the prosecuting attorney an opportunity to be heard. Mr. BROWN said it seemed to him this pro. position should not be adopted without some fur. cher consideration. He believed there were very few gentlemen but would concur as to the existence of great evil in the exercise of the pardoning power; and after what had been said in this debate, he was persuaded gentlemen would see the necessity of limiting it. But, he asked, if they supposed it could be done by these preliminary notices? It appeared to him they would fail to accomplish their object. The object was avowed to be to compel gentlemen in high places-gentlemen exercising political influence-when they apply to the Governor to grant pardons, to put themselves on record.But pass this provision and the convict himself or some friend for him, will give the notice of application for pardon, and those who wish to influence the mind of the Governor will do it in some other way so that they will not appear in it. He would unite with the gentleman from New-York in limiting this power to pardon, but he thought a moment's reflection must satisfy that gentleman that this was not the way to do it. But there was another matter that required observation. This power has been abusedvery much abused. He did not intend to charge an abuse of this power with the deliberate design to do wrong, for he was satisfied it had been done in the exercise of the best feelings of the human heart. He doubted not the Governor had been misled by some applicants and deceived by others, and that some applications had been so made as to make it difficult for any man to resist. But the great difficulty lay at the bottom of all this. Convictions may take place where the object of it is innocent. For such cases the-pardoning power was here vest. ed in the Governor, and in the Crown in Great Britain. Such convictions either took place by the perjury of witnesses, or other causes, and thus innocent persons were consigned to an ignominious punishment, and the pardoning pow. er was properly exercised when it interposed between him and that sentence. No civilized people would wish to take away or restrain the just operation of such a power, and his object was to bring to the notice of the Convention, before it should establish a rule in the fundamental law of the state, under which the legislature would have no power to interpose or legislate, a position in which they might be placed. Suppose it should be required that two or six weeks' notice should be given of these applications for pardon, and suppose the object for whom the application was mate was a convicted murderer, and the execution was fixed for the next day, or the next week, there would be no opportunity for Executive interposition. He would simply suggest then that the gentleman 234 from New-York could not accomplish his object in the way proposed, and that if he should procure the adoption of this provision hemight do that which in all after time he might regret. Mr. STOW said he should fail in his duty if he did not protest against this amendment.Gentlemen had not considered the pardoning power who proposed this. They had all looked at it as an act ot mercy towards the convicted criminal. Their great error was this-they had overlooked the fact that it was a political power to be resorted to where expediency required it, and often for the protection of the community itself. The guilty man was sometimes the object of it that he might be used as witness, and in such cases all the circumstences must be kept secret-the motives and purposes must all be kept secret. It was, therefore, to be used for the benefit of the community as a political power, as well as for the relief of the innocent. There were two sides to his question. It was not merely convicted persons, but the community also that was interestled in it. How often would it be that men would not allow their names to be used publicly in such cases, though the best interests of the community might be promoted by them.For their own safety they would decline. Again in how many cases must it be exercised on the spur of the moment to restore a witness. How often must the Governor intimate in advance, to the court and to the Attorney-General and the District Attorney the course to be pursued. It was a great question and it would not do to narrow it down to a mere question of mercy to the accused. He asked, however, to pro. pose a modification. He thought there should be some restriction. He thought the legislature might require the Executive to give notice to the District Attorney or the judge before whom the case was tried, and might also require the Executive to give his reasons for pardoning, and to file them amongst the archives oi' tie department of state. But it would never do.n cases of the development of wide.spread conspiracies or treason, to adopt a rule which would afford facilities to co-conspirators. Mr. WATERBURY said this was a subject of great interest in the county in which he resided. To sustain the truth of this statement, no better evidence would be required than the fact that 19 men from his county were now in the state prison, two of whom had been under sentence of death. He recited the difficulties he has had to surmount in his attempts to obtain Executive clemency for those men, and he hoped it would not be made more difficult than at present to obtain the ear of power for the condemned. Mr. WARD did not see any necessity for the proposed amendment of the gentleman from New-York, and yet there might be no objection to insert such a proposition in the constitution. It was due to the Executive to state that he had, so far as Mr. W.'s observation extended, pursued the course indicated by this amendment, which the gentleman from New-York proposed to make obligatory on him by the constitution. It had been the Governor's practice, belore ganting pardons, to address a letter to the Midges who tried the case, requesting to be fur nished with the minutes of the proceedings of the trial. He not only pursued that course, but he procured information from the agents of the prison respecting the conduct of the prisoner. This had been the uniform practice of the Ex. ecutive of this state for some years past, so that full knowledge of the case was procured. He, however, was disposed to favor the amendment which the gentleman from Erie proposed to make. Mr. STETSON did not consider the pardoning power merely as an attribute of mercy; it was a very important duty to be periormedand this was a view which had not been adverted to-for the equalization of punislinient.There were still many cases provided for in the Revised Statutes in which he hoped this power would be frequently exercised-cases of an anomalous character of crime which required that punishment should be more nearly equalized to the moral turpitude of the act committed. The varied range of crimes are brought within classes by the Revised Statutes and an act of a lesser is punished by the same imprisonment as one of greater moral turpitude, for it was not always in the power of the court to apportion the punishment. In such cases it became necessary that the Executive should interfere and adjust the punishment to the character of the offence committed. A striking instance occurred durinm the time Governor Seward was the Executive of this state. The crime charged was an attempt to ki I-where the party shot in the dark. It was perhaps a reckless act and the crime charged was on the principle that he ought to know the consequences of what he did. The man shot recklessly through a hedge and killed a horse, the punishment for which was five years imprisonment in the state prison — Thus the Revised Statutes dealt out the same quantity of punishment in disregard of the spe. cial circumstances of the crime. He mentioned this to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that the pardoning power was necessary to adjust the punishment for crime as well as to restore those whom it is necessary to use as witnesses Mr. SIMMONS thought the feeling that prevailed in reference to the pardoning power, was that natural and almost necessary struggle that arose between a feeling of equality-as in the consultation of many persons, and the little remnant of monarchy which must exist in some form or other. There must be something trusted to one man, and the circumstance that it is a one man power, exercised by any individual alone, exposed him to suspicion. Since he had resided in this state, where there is no executive council, by and with the advice of whom the Governor does so and so, but where the Governor does it, he had thought that certain unnatural and constrained suspicions arose in every case of pardon, as though an attempt was made to obtain political capital; and yet he did not know an instance where the power had been abused. He thought it had been very discreetly exercised, though it must be varied with the time and the temper of the individual; for they could not confide such a great power, without taking the risk of individual idiosyncrasy. We in this state, deem it necessary, 235 when a person is on trial for a crime, that there shall be more than one judge, however learned; and therefore we have one or two sensible lay men on the bench with him. This feeling arose out of our institutions. We are accustomed to a multiciplity of councillors; and when it be. came necessary to deciue a question of life and death, we fell as though it was wrong, and subjected a person to suspicion, who exercised it alone. And this perhaps would be so, until we came up, and the public consented to adopt what the New England states have had frcm the beginning-a Governor's council, in all criminal cases- Let it consist of the heads of departments, and it would cost nothing; and let the Governor consult with them in all cases of pardon. He differed with the gentleman from Erie, and but a little. He drew a distinction between pardoning after and before conviction. In tie latter, it was nothing more in effect than entering a nolle prosequi. It was proper there should be in the hands of the pardoning power the discretion to enter a nolle prosequi-so that if a soldier standing in the army did not act in the character of a soldier, the Governor might exercise it. But he would prefer that in cases after conviction, there should be some little regularity. It would frequently happen that there was a latent equity and strength of moral justice in a case; and it might be so strong as to threaten to shake the stability of the laws, if no remedy was provided; for if there was no such power lodged anywhere, juries would exercise it themselves It was nothing more or less than the natural equity which belongs to every case, as contradistinguished front the naked, rigid, hard dictates of law; but in crimninal cases it has not been reserved to courts of equity, and educed to rules-for it has been arbitrarily exercised, and kept in the hands of the Executive. Now it would be very desirable if these pardons after conviction could be reduced to some rule. He did not see the necessity of resorting to the pardoning power to make a witness; and they would be more satisfactory, and tend to promote uniformity, and to strengthen the law. And the true way would be to associate with the Governor the heads of departments to constitute an executive council. He would have it so organized though, that they should never overrule the Governor to execute a sentence. but that he should not carry it out into execution against a majority of the coun. cil. He thought this would give in a short time time that satisfaction which institutions like ours demanded-that is, something beyond the one man discretion. Mr. LOOMIS said on hearing the remarks of the gentleman from New-York, and the statement wh ch that gentleman had quoted, he had been favorably impressed towards this proposition; but further reflection and the remarks of other gentlemen had satisfied him that it was inexpedient to adopt such a proposition. It was nothing more nor less than legislating by this body what the governor has already power to do. It will be competent for the go. vernor at any time to say that he will grant no pnrdons until notice has been given at the place where the crime was committed. There mignt have been an abuse of the pardoning power but he did not think it had been unduly exerc-i sed. Its exercise had been the necessary result from the excessive severity of our criminal laws. The exercise of the pardoning power was the high prerogative of the state, that could not properly be invested except in some individual or body representing the power of the slate, and in no one so fitly as in the chief executive officer. He believed there was no country where the chief executive officer was not in. vested with the pardoning power, though it might be there were other bodies associated with him. The Governor he thought might continue in the possession of that power, though if the business in that branch of his duties continued to increase as it appears from a report it had done, it might be necessary for this Convention to devise some means by which the Executive may be relieved from the onerous burden. He thought they might as well insert some provision authorizing some officer-the state prison inspectors or somebody else to aid as advisers, though he would after all leave the controlling power with the Governor. They might organize a small body of officers, and perhaps none were so good as the state prison inspectors, to act as advisers of the Executive, leaving him to act at his pleasure on his own discretion. Under these views of the case, he was of opinion they had better not adopt the amendment of the gentleman from New-York. Mr. RUGGLES said the constitution as it now stands, gave to the Governor power to grant reprieves and pardons in all cases, excep treason and impeachment. He observed there was a paragraph in the report made to the Convention which stated that most of these applications for pardon are ex parte, and made under circumstances in which probably those who were interested in the question had no knowledge of the application or of the pardon. In some instances undoubtedly, pardons had taken effect without the knowledge of those who take an interest in them, but if notice was to be required, there might be some inconvenience found to exist in capital cases. He could, however, see no objection to giving the legislature authority to require notice in all cases that were not capital. There may be that power now, though there was a doubt about it; if so, it should be removed by a provision in the constitution. He made that suggestion to the gentlemtn from New-York. Mr. RHOADES reminded the committee that he had heretofore offered a resolution on the subject of making the state prison inspectors a body of commissioners, who should be associated with the Governor, as the pardoning power. That resolution was laid on the table at the suggestion of his friend from Onondaga, who tho't the object could be accomplished by moving an amendment when the Convention was in committee of the whole orl the report of committee No. 6. He now suggested to the gentleman from New York to allow this to go over until that time. Mr. NICHOLAS thought this was a proper time and place to dispose of this pardoning power, and he differed with the gentleman as to the propriety of postponing this amendment or any question referring to the subject. The gentleman's resolution to which he had alluded propqses to associate the state prison inspectors j 236 commissioners, as they were termed, with the the exercise of this important prerogative from Governor in the exercise of this pardoning power. slight or insufficient causes. It appeared to Mr. N. then, and on further re- Mr. WATERBURY was well aware from perflection he was confirmed in the opinion, that sonal khowledge, and by application to the Govany such connection would be inexpedient, and ernor, that too much indulgence is attributed to for several reasons. One was, that the inspec- the Executive. He knew that the Governor retors of prisons would not be at the capitol at a quired the most full and satisfactory evidence of period when the Governor might have occasion the propriety of the pardon, before a reprieve to consult them; but without any such associa- was given, and was unmoved by the entreaties tion, the Governor would always have it in his or tears which were brought in aid of an applipower to confer with the inspectors. In regard cation. He believed there was no danger to be to the amendment proposed by the gentleman apprehended from leaving with him the responfrom New York, it struck him that it would not sibility of the exercise of the pardoning power, attain the object the gentleman had in view.- while by giving it to a half-dozen, the rights of He did not perceive how it would be the means the criminal to a fair hearing would be much reof bringing before the Governor any necessary stricted, by the chances of the different opinions information to enable him to act discreetly and which different persons would form from the judiciously in the exercise of this power, that same testimony. he would not otherwise possess. It might serve Mr. TALLMADGE sustained briefly the secto get up an excitement in the neighborhood, tion as to the pardoning power, as it stood in the and counter statements might be submitted, but Iexisting constitution. He contended that the this was not the kind of information on which the power of pardon was an essential power in a Governor should rely in coming to aconclusion.government, which must be lodged somewhere, He should rely on the judges of the court, and and that no where could it be more safely lodgthe prosecuting attorney, whom he always had ed than where it had been, for so long a period power to consult, and therefore by the adoption -with the Governor-who was responsible, at of this amendment they would only trammel this stated periods, to the people. Though he conpower with greater embarrassment. He was a- fessed this power had been indiscreetly exerciware that this power had been indiscreetly used, sed in some instances, yet he did not believe he might say injudiciously used. He had the thatit was from bad motives-nor were they caknowledge himself of this having been the case; ses of such importance as to require essential but he was not disposed to impute it-indeed he changes in the existing constitution. Better put knew in the case to which he alluded, there was up with occasional indiscretions, than to place no intentional abuse of power; it was simply embarrassing or prohibitory restraints upon its from a mistaken feeling of kindness. He was in- exercise-vor to interfere with the proper jurisformed many such cases had occurred; still it diction of the Executive. He preferred deciwas a power that must belong somewhere, and dedly the section of the old constitution as it he did not believe it could be so safely invested stood. as where it now is. If they should divide this Mr.STEPHENS acquiesced in the suggestiob of responsibility between individuals the fact would the gentleman from Onondaga, that his proposibe that it would be frittered away, and it would tion should be voted down now. not be exercised with the discretion that it had Mr. STOW thought this the proper time and been by one man. As to the Governor, it was place to dispose of the amendment, and of the expected that his duties will be curtailed and question as to where the pardoning power should much diminished; he will, therefore, have more be vested. And he now gave notice that he leisure hereafter than heretofore to attend to should follow up this proposition with another this important duty, and perhaps more leisure which he should insist on having adopted. than would belong to any other class of officers Mr. STEPHENS then said that he regarded all with whom he might be associated. The asso- that had been said in regard to district attorneys, ciation with the Governor of other individuals and an increase of lawyers' fees as entirely inresiding away from the capital then, was highly applicable to his amendment-requiring as it did, objectionable. If such an association was nothing that might not be done by the convict or to be effected, the inspectors would be almost his friends. As to the case stated by the gentleconstantly travelling to and from the capital; man from Orange, it was an extreme one, not and though he was not disposed to apprehend likelyto occur. As ageneral rule certainly, the any very serious consequences to result yet from matter could be safely left to the Governor, with the intercourse of the inspectors with the peo- the statements on both sides before him-and if pie, they would be much exposed to the impor- it should appear that the persons were rightly tunities of the friends of convicts, and be led convicted, by a proper tribunal, he ought to away by sympathy; and if there were any dan- abide the punishment prescribed by law. Buthe ger of official influence being perverted to would not follow the gentleman further. It was political purposes, might not these inspectors, a subject he confessed, with which he was not with this power, be liable to such misconduct? familiar in all its bearings-and he acquiesced in Besides, the arrangement would be inconvenient the suggestion of the gentleman from Onondaga and expensive; these inspectors would be called very cheerfully. to the Capitol expressly to meet the Governor to Mr. TALLMADGE here remarked that he act upon every application for a pardon. This should move at the proper time, to strike out all power must be lodged somewhere-its exercise the mrew matter in this section, leaving it as it would be attended with perplexity and difficultv, stood in the old constitution. wherever reposed, but it appeared to him that it Mr. RICHMOND in reply to Mr. STEPHENS, was safer where it now was than if the respon- said there were many cases of conviction where sibility was divided between several men, espe- the proceedings were legal, but where great incially if we adopted the amendment proposed by justice might be done by the infliction of the the committee requiring the Governor to report penalty. A man might be convicted on the testo the legislature the number of cases pardoned, timony of a witness, who it might turn out, and the names and offences of the convicts.- might be mistaken. The proceedings might all Sueh a report was the only additional check that be legal, and yet the man suffer a great wrong. tould be safely imposed, and this would prevent As to the idea of the gentleman from Onondaga, 237 that we should have a board composed of the Governor and the inspectors of the prisonsMr. RHOADES advocated no such thing. He merely alluded to an enquiry he had proposedbut avowed no attachment to any such plan. Mr. RICHMOND, before he could assent to such a plan, must know who were to appoint the inspectors. If they were elected by the people, he might favor the plan. Otherwise not. He should prefer the state officers, as suggested by the gentleman from Essex. Mr. SIMMONS agreed with the gentleman from Dutchess, (Mr. TALLMADGE) in the necessity of preserving in an active and vigorous form the power of mercy in a government. The highest government in the universe had this attribute, and some theologians thought, he believed, that it was in council. The idea of Montesquieu, that the English government was a Republic lisguised under the form of a monarchy, was to some extent true, compared with some other monarchies of Europe. And on the other hand, it was a matter of surprise that our govi ernment, under the form of republicanism, was perhaps the only kind of government in the world, that had real monarchy in it. A convict in England was pardoned by the Queen; but she never knew any thing about it; it was clone by a cabinet. The King and Queen were persons of straw. Why should we be so peculiar-when a monarchy repudiated this one man power, anti turned it into a creature of straw? Why should we insist on having a real man exercising the whole power alone? And this too where the general feeling in the country was against these one-man decisions, whether by a judge or an Executive? Until some principle of this sort was proposed, better than the present, lie preferred to hold on to the power as it stood-a bird in the hand was worth two in the bush. This pardoning power must exist somewhere, and if taken away from the Executive, juries would exercise it. But there were strong suspicions now of the abuse of this power-and the effect of it must be injurious to the cause of humanity and mercy, operating as it must upon the Executive. He was for having an Executive Council. Such as they had in New England-not for this purpose merely but some others-for he believed it necessary to regulate this power, anti reduce it to something like law and reason. Mr. TALLMADGE did not know that he should object to such a proposition, when presented; though at present it was not the question before us. But that had never been the policy of this state; the policy of our ancestors, which had been in vogue so long, was to choose a competent man, to entrust this power of mercy in his hands, and to hold him accountable for the manner in which he should exercise it. He stood on the same rock now. If New England had her executive council, be it so. It might work well enough there. But he did not feel the necessity for this radical change in a principle which had stood from '76 down to this hour. And when in order he should move to restore this section to the shape in which it stood in the old constitution-as coming from those whom we had cause to honor. Mr. STOW moved a substitute for the proposition of Mr. STEPHENS:After the word i' proper," add, " But the Legislature may, by law, require that notice shall be given to aujudge before whom the convict was tried, or to the district-attorney of the county where the conviction was had, or to both such judge and district-attorney, before a pardon shall be gr;nted; and, also, that the Governor shall file his reasons for granting a pardon, and the documentary evidence on which he acted, with the Secretary of State. Mr. STOW regarded the pardoning power as indispensible. But it was not always an exercise of mercy. It was often a matter of absolute right that a convict should be pardoned. Of this he might produce many illustrations. It was necessary also to prevent excessive punishment being inflicted by courts of justice. Strictly perhaps, it was always a matter of mercy to pardon.And he suspected the gentleman from New-York spoke hastily, when he said that it never should be exercised as an act of mercy. It was not for frail and erring humanity, whose dependence on the Divine forbearance and mercy was daily recognized, to assert or act on such a principle. He apprehendledthat itwasindispensible as a matter of public policy-antd that the publicity proposed to be given to applications for pardon, anti the grounds for them, would often defeat the object anti endanger the public safety, as for instance in a case of a wide spread conspiracy against society. Where should this power be reposed? He confessed he preferred the Executive, and on the principle that it wasmore safe to proceed upon experience than upon experiment. It had worked well in his handsanti if errors had been committed it was from misinformation or want of information. That he proposed to remedy, by his amendment.He disliked the distribution of responsibility among a Governor anti council. Leave it with the Governor, andt we should always have a responsible man. Divide the responsibility, and it would be nowhere. He had no doubt we should have much better appointments, were the Governor alone to appoint, instead of sharing that power with the senate. As to the inspectors of state prisons acting as an executive council, they were the last men with whom he would lodge this power of pardon. If he wanted to select a man to assist a Spanish priest in improving on torture, he would apply to those who had had the keeping and managing of state prison convicts. As to the legislature, he would give them some slight power over the mode in which the Governor should exercise his power-a discretion which would not probably be exercised except in cases of a high grade of offence. But with this slight modification, he would leave the power where it was, without diminution or alteration. As to that part of this section which authorized the Governor to pardon upon conditions, it was inserted, no doubt, to make that constitutional which was now law, ani which had been questioned as unconstitutional. Mr. MORRIS opposed the amendment. It made delay necessary-and a person applying for a parton, on the ground of right, was wronged every moment he was detained in prison. But another objection:-he spoke from practical observation when he said that when a man had been convicted by a conspiracy, and that could be conclusively shown, the effect of such a notice as this woult be perjury upon perjury. Again, this was all unnecessary, for he knew the fact to be that the Executive always took the precautions suggested in this amendment-applying always to the judges and the district attorneys for the testimony and their opinions upon the case. No doubt Executives had erred sometimes; but these errors were on the side of mercy, and for that human nature should not be censured. He trusted the committee would not strike out. The question was here taken, and Mr. STEPHEN'S amendment negatived. Mr. W. TAYLOR offered the following, on behalf of Mr. CHATFIELD:After the word 'tproper" insert "but before any such pardon shall be granted, the inspectors of the 238 state prisons shall inquire into the ease of every con. vict ior whom a pardon shall be asked, and shall communicate to the Governor all the facts and circumstances in relation thereto " Mr. TAYLOR said his general impression was in favor of leaving the section as it was. But no evil could result from this, as it required no more probably than theGovernor would do without it. Mr. NICHOLAS inquired if gentlemen supposed any public officer ever withheld such information when applied to for it? If not, why designate the officers to whom application should be made? It could have no other effect than to subject them to importunities from the friends of convicts. Mr. PATTERSON remarked that the keepers of the prisons were to be applied to for this information, if any one. The inspectors knew nothing of these cases; nor in all cases, were persons for whom pardons were asked, confined in the state prison. The amendment was lost. Mr. HARRISON offered the following:After the word 'proper,' insert-' But no person convicted of murder, whose sentence of death shall have been commuted into imprisonment for life in a state prison, shall be pardoned afterwards, except on proof of innocence, or of the in-anity of the convict at the time the crime was committed, or of such irregularities in the proceedings of the court or mitigating circumstances in the case, to be certified by the judge before whom the conviction was had, as will render the Executive interference necessary. Every such case the Governor may in his discretion, report to the Senate, with a comprehensive statement of facts and circumstances for their determination thereon, and a majority of the senate may direct the sentence to be reversed or a pardon to be granted to the criminal. Mr. HARRISON said he offered this because the prevailing sentiment now was in favor of a commutation of the punishment of death in all cases to imprisonment for life. If'this feeling should be acted on by the Executive, he would be assailed very frequently, perhaps immediately after such commutation, with importunities on the part of friends of convicts to release them from imprisonment. He would have the community protected from hasty action on the part of the Executive, which must follow the exercise of this power. Such a provision might be found very useful hereafter. * The amendment was lost.' Mr. TALLMADGE now moved to strike out these words:" He may commute sentence of death to imprison. ment in a state prison for life. He may grant pardons upon such conditions and with such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper." Mr. TALLMADGE said this was in part the motion he intimated he should make-intending, if it was successful, to follow it up with a reference to the other new matter in the section.Thus amended, the section would give the (4overnor the power of pardon, and would leave all the details to be settled by legislation, as had been done since 1821. Mr. BROWN hoped the clause would not be struck out. Mr. WORDEN presumed it was well understood that this clause was put in to explain a doubt about the statute. Mr. BROWN so understood it; and. it was well to have no doubt on this subject of the power of commutation. The committee refused to strike out. Mr. STOW then proposed his amendment, as above, and it was negatived, 38 to 42. Mr. CROOKER proposed to strike out the whole section, andinsert; "t The Governor shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons, or may commute the sentence to impris. onment for life or for a term of years, and with such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper; after conviction in all cases except treason, where the penalty is death. And upon convictions for treason, he shrill have power to suspend the execut on of the sentence until the case shall be reported by him to the legislature at its next session-when the legislature shall either pardon or direct the execution of the sentence, or grant a further reprieve. Mr. MORRIS enquired if the gentleman in tended to strike out impeachments? Mr. CROOKER replied affirmatively, going on to say that if there had been abuses of the pardoning power, it was from not exercising the power, rather than from an excessive use of it. Such was his experience; and Mlr. C. mentioned several cases of obscurity and poverty illustrative of his position. His idea was to have a commission, to whom reports should be made by the jndge trying the case if required by the counsel for the defence, which would only be in cases of great doubt. It would relieve the Governor of a vast amount of responsibility; and would place it in the hands of mote suitable persons. For the Governor was not always selected for his legal knowledge; and was always the representative of a party. This board, he would if possible so construct that they should be free from all bias. He hoped his amendment would be considered, and not hurriedly disposed of because it was getting near 2 o'clock. Mr. SIMMONS thought he could see ooze out here an inclination towards the principle that we must come to at last. What was wanted was some kind of criminal court of equity-he called it a Governor and council, whose duty it should be to collect all the facts in each case, and apply the pardoning power according to each; and thus gradually this power, now complained of, would by force of precedent, acquire a character wnich would meet the moral demands of the human heart. Nothing else would do it.As to our penitentiary system, he regarded it as a failure. Its tendency was to paralyze and destroy self respect, to break up every spring of moral character, and counteract the effect of our social and other institutions. He wanted to see a system adopted which should compel a separate account to be kept with every person in our prisons, the duration of his imprisonment to be short in proportion to his earnings-so that in fact he should earn his pardon, as matter of right. Our prisons were now state collegesuniversities-to educate felons and destroy selfrespect-the only spring of moral activity in human nature. He did not know how this could be done, except through a criminal court of equity, and by adapting our penitentiary system to it. The amendment was negatived. Mr. BROWN suggested that the information to be communicated to the legislature on this subject, by the Executive, should not be in his annual message. Mr. MORRIS assented to that suggestion and moved to amend so as to require the Governor to communicate the facts annually to the legislature, which was agreed to. Mr. CROOKER proposed to amend so as to authorize the Governor to commute sentence of death to imprisonment for life " or for a term of years." Mr. PATTERSON thought the punishment of death should not be commuted for a less period of imprisonment than for life. Mr. WATERBURY suggested leaving out the words "'for life." 239 Mr. WORDEN thought the clause might then be construed to mean for life. Mr. BASCOM preferred Mr. CROOKER'S proposition-and thought it should be adopted. Otherwise a convict whose sentence had been commuted to state prison for life, might never be relea-ed-as the pardoning power in his case, might be claimed to be exhausted. Mr. CROOKER'S amendment was lost, 33 in the affirmative. Mr. ARCHER offered this amendment: " In c.a-e the Ipgislature should abolish capital punishrnent, the Governor shall rot have power to pardon or shorten the term of imprisonment of such persons as shill have been convicted of mur(ler, except with the unanimous consent of both branches of the legislature " Mr. TAGGART moved to strike out the word ~" unanimous.' Lost, as was also the original proposition. Mr. RHOADES offered the following, which was also lost: After the word " offences," in the second line, insert t except for which the offender may be sentenced to the state prison, and" Mr. SHEPARD offered the following: Substitute for the first part Of the section down to and including the word " limitations," these words:" The Governor shall have power to grant reprieves, commutations, and pardons after conviction, except in cases of treason and impeachment, in such manner, on such terms, and under such restrictions as he may think proper." Pending the question on this motion, the committee rose, adi the Conveption adjourned to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. TUESDAY, JULY 14. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. HUNTINGTON. circumstantial evidence alone. Then there was STATE BOARD OF ASSESSORS. another class, which was almost pecul'ar to our Mr.TO WNSEND offered the following, which own country: he meant where the crime which as agreed to:- had been committed had created much exciteResolved, That the committee on the pub'ic reve- ment, and in relation to which the newspapers nues, &c, be required to consider the propriety of in- had bound the individual and the crime so firmly stituting, by constitutional enactment, a State Board together, that they were inseparable in the public of Assessors, with power to equitably adjust the rela-jument. In such a case, conviction followed tive appiaisement of the real and personal estate in the several counties, with reference to a just and uni- as a necessary and inevitable consequence. Now form levy of state or national direct taxation. in those classes of cases, the individual convictEXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. ed might be perfectly innocent. Within the last The Convention again resolved itself into a ten years, twenty such cases had occurred, and committee of the whole, on the report of the he put this statement of facts to the serious conFifth standing committee, on the powers and sideration of gentlemen who assailed the parduties of the Executive, Mr. CHATFIELD in doning power. There was a second class of cathe chair. ses, in which it was advantageous to exercise The pending amendment was the one offered the franchise of pardon, and that was where the yesterday by Mr. SHEPARD. individual was really guilty, but where some Mr. SHEPARD said, when he offered his high reason existed for his pardon. such cases amendment yesterday, he presumed that the were those in which it was necessary to remove pardoning power was to be kept pretty much as the disqualification of a witness; such as where it was now. He supposed the experience of all an individual who had been convicted of a crimewas conclusive as to the propriety of retaining was pardoned on his disclosing his associates.the pardoning power. He was therefore sur- It was thus that the secret paths of crime were' prised at the effort made there, to strike directly made public. It was thus in very many instanat the exercise of that important function of the ces, that criminals were detected. It was thusgovernment. The only question then seemed to that the eye of justice was led to the secret be, where the pardoning power was to be lodg- recesses of vice. From this class of cases, ed? Who would best exercise it, with a view however, which he had enumerated, he supto the safety and welfare of the community?- posed a perfect exercise of the pardoning powNow, he proposed briefly to show, for the pur- er would demand, that in each class there' pose of vindicating the exercise of that power, should be the exercise of judgment, by different why it was exercised at all, and why the judg- men or bodies of men. Where injustice had ment of a court on a specific offence, was not been done by the trial, he supposed the court final. In the administration of criminal justice, which tried, could judge best. In the second under the best system, necessarily much injus- branch, where the administration of some branch. tice must be done. In the history of the crimi- of the government called for the pardon, the nal law, it would be found that a great many had Executive would be the best judge; in other been convicted, who were supposed to be guilty, cases, the state prison inspectors might be well on perjured testimony. Juries were bound to qualified to decide. It seemed then, that this deciie according to the evidence; and it was en. power, to be exercised perfectly, ought to be tirely out of the question to suppose that they lodged in three different hands. That, however, would, or could, in a great majority of instances, he assumed to be impossible. It must be vested in, make any allowance for false statements on the one or two responsible agents, and there it must part of witnesses. Another class of cases, was remain; and where were we to find responsible that in which mistakes in the evidence itself, or agents? He supposed it was well designate 1 in mistakes of identity, had occurred. This was the present constitution; he supposed the Gov a very large class, which had furnished theorists ernor, standing as the head of the system, poswith powerful arguments against the reliance on sessed all the information requisite, and stool in 240 the best possible situation to make up his judgment free from error, or in such a way as would be productive of as little injury to the community as could be secured in any case.He was forcibly struck with the proposition of his colleague (Mr. STEPHENS.) He approved of the principle of giving notice where it could be applied; but in those cases where a secret pardon is to be granted, notice could not be given. It seemed to him we had better leave it to the Executive, for it would be best deposited in his hands; and i e could provide for the notice, if he saw fit, and grant pardons on such conditions as he deemed proper, and with any formalities he might chose to lay down and define. The instances of the unfortunate exercise of this power by the Executive were comparatively very few indeed. He did not know, if the powei was lodged any where else, that the instances would be so few; for he had shown, it must be exercised by any other person at a greater disadvantage than by the Governor. It had been suggested that the legislature should be left to control this matter; but in this he did not agree. The ear of the Executive should always be open to petitions and applications for pardon. Whenever a man was justly entitled to a pardon, it should be made as speedy a matter as possible; it was never too soon to repair an injury, especially one of that kind which carries desolation to the human heart and to the family circle. Mr. TAGGART had hoped the gentleman from New York, would have given some reason for his amendment; but instead of that, he had confined his argument to the point whether we should retain the pardoning power, and whether or not it should be vested in the hands of the Governor. From the tone and temper manifested there, he thought there were very few that would be disposed to strike out the pardoning power, or take it away from where it had been hitherto lodged. But he now rose to present one or two other matters in this Convention, which had not yet been presented. He found here a provision, which has been taken from the statute that the Governor may grant pardons with such restrictions and limitations as he might think proper. This, it struck him, u as wrong in print ciple. It was an establishe maxim of the law of the land that you are so to use your own as not to injure another. That maxim, if it did not already, ought to apply as well to government as to individuals. The power to grant pardons with such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper, is usually understood to apply to cases where the pardon is granted in consideration that the person pardoned shall leave the country in which he has been convicted. Now was this principle right? Was it just to a neighboring state or province or nation that we should send the criminals from our penitentiaries and prisons to commit their depredations on those states or provinces? It seemed to him that it was unjust and we ought to pause and reflect before we admit such a provision in the constitution and give to it a sanction which it had never yet had under the government of this state. He admitted it had been resorted to over the whole country, but notwithstanding, it was wrong, and it ought not to be so fastened on the constituti n as toprohibit a general rule of the legislature hereafter, to abandon this principle. There was another proposition which he desired on an appropriate occasion to offer; it was to provide in case the government should abolish capital punishment, that the pardoning power shall be taken from the Governor without the consent of the egislature. He wished to limit the power of the Governor to pardon unless the legislature should deem it necessary. It was evident that within a very few years, capital punishment, that relic of a past age, will be stricken from the statute book. He did not intend to interfere with it by this Convention, but he wished to leave it in such a manner that the legislature may interfere and provide that if they take away the power to inflict capital punishment, they shall inflict a term ot imprisonment without the power of pardon, except on certain conditions and in specified cases. To meet this case, he should offer such an amendment as this: "But the legislature may by law limit and restrict the exercise by the Governor of the pardoning power in cases of murder."He had been informed that the present Executive had granted but two conditional pardons since his induction into office, and to these he would briefly advert for the purpose of showing their effects. One of the two was conditionally pardoned for making disclosures through which others were convicted of participating in the offences for which he had been convicted.The condition was that he should leave the state. Not complying with that, he was a second time arrested and a second time was permitted to go away, and he went to Canada; but in the space of one fortnight he came back with a quantity of counterfeit money in his possession with which he supplied the market. With great effort, he was again arrested and convicted, and is now confined at Sing Sing. The other was detected in picking pockets on board the boat which bore him from the prison to the city, and he too is now back again at the prison at Sing Sing. He again repeated his hope that this provision would not be inserted in the constitution, so as to make it a perpetual power. Mr. HUNT desired to add the words "'or as may be prescribed by law," to come after the word " proper;" but the amendment was not then in order. Mr. O'CONOR said, though there might be no obscurity in the clause of the constitution of 1821, so far as words were concerned, yet it was probable some addition was requisite as to the extent of the Governor's power. It was known that the Governor had power to grant reprieves after conviction, except in cases of treason and cases of impeachment; and it was known what he might do in those cases. Now doubts arose, it seemed, under the terms used in that constitution, whether he had power to grant commutations or diminutions of punishment, and it cer. tainly was a very excellent idea in the committee to remove, as they could by a word, the doubts which had arisen on that head, because none could deny that the Governor ought to have the power to grant pardons, with that kind of condition; or in other terms, to reduce the amount of punishment. He also ought to have the power to impose conditions, for they might conceive of many considerations, under which it 241 would be the best policy consistently with jus. the committee thought it was better to put the tice, that the Governor could pursue. We have question at rest, and this they had attempted to been informed that paupers had been transmit- do by the words which the section contained.ted hither at the expense of the towns on which They put the term of commutation for life, they were chargeable in foreign countries. Now though the statute fixed a less time. His assoif one of those paupers, not having a settlement ciate feared it would extend to cases of treason; or the me ns to sustain himself, should commit and he asked why should it not? Why should a felo.y, it would be a proper condition of a par- it be left to the legislature? Why should it be don that he should transport himself without the left to a political party, opposition to whose poUnited States and never afterwards return within litical opinions might be the treason, for which it; and an honorable gentleman who had had perhaps the man ought to be eulogized rather the exercise of the pardoning power stated to him than punished. They therefore gave to the Gothat it was not unfrequently resorted to. He vernor the power to commute, leaving it to the therefore felt great pleasure in expressing his legislature to pardon subsequently, if they approval in the fullest degree of the object and thought proper to do so. These were some of intent of the committee. In relation to the pow- the reasons why these sections were drawn in er to commute, he made a few brief suggestions, this manner; first, to keep the construction of and in relation to the conditional pardon of ex. the old constitution; second, to embrace what patriation, he suggested that the state of New they supposed the law intended, but about which York should not by this sort of banishment. con- the Executive had doubts; and next, for the vert her sister states into so many Botany Bays. other considerations which he had just set forth. Mr. MORRIS presumed it would not be im- Mr. O'CONOR, in a few observations, was proper in him to state why the committee ha. understood to suggest, that the power to comreported the article in its present shape. In mute the punishment of death for treason, should drawing the different sections, wherever it was have been more clearly defined, to take it out intended that the same power should be retained. of the exceptions. the committee copied the old constitution and Mr. TALLMADGE impressed on the Con. the old law, purposely adopting the language in vention the importance of the pardoning power, use, so as to prevent the necessity of construc- and the necessity there was to devote their best tion. The old constitution being known, and its attention to it. He enquired what was its ex. meaning appreciated, they felt that by a change tent and where did it rest? And he asked the of verbiage, though it might improve the style, committee to pause and consider whether the would leave the door open for construction. All legislature had or had not a concurrent pardonlawyers well knew that the change of a word in ing power. a statute, very frequently, if it did not lead to a Mr. WORDEN said the better opinion during different construction, opened the door to litiga- the last session of the legislature in which this tion ani argument; and he might appeal to some subject was discussed, was that all the pardonof his lay friends, if they had notbeen compelled ing power was vested in the Executive-that to put their hands in their pockets for the purpose where they had conferred the exclusive exercise of paying the expenses of determining whether of a specified power by implication, it denied the the alteration of a word did not alter the law.- exercise of that power to any other. The genWhere then they intended to retain the same tleman from Dutchess had referred to this on power as in the old constitution, they kept to the one or two occasions already, but he begged to language of that constitution. The committee inform that gentleman that the question had had also introduced some new matter. There been settled in the legislature. It was discussed was new matter in the third, fourth, fifth and in the Senate last winter, and there the better sixth lines of this fifth section, giving to the opinion was that the legislature had no control Governor power to commute sentence of death over it. to imprisonment in the state prison for life.- Mr. CROOKER: Not "better" opinion. That matter the committee had taken from the Mr. WORDEN said " better," because it was statute, and from decisions under the statute. his own opinion, but there were conflicting opiThe statute also embraced this: " He may grant nions. pardons upon such conditions, and wig such re. Mr. TALLMADGE again appealed to the strictions and limitations as he may think prop- Convention to leave nothing doubtful in the con. er." Now, under that verbiage of the statute, struction of this section As the section now the Executive and his constitutional advisers had stood, he contended that the legislature also doubts whether the power was conferred on retained the pardoning power. The words him to commute the sentence of death to im- The Governor shall have power to grant reprisonment in the state prison. They referred prieves," &c., did not prevent the exercise of to the third section of the Revised Statutes, vol. that power by the legislature, though such II, pp. 455, where they found the legal provi. would be the effect of introducing the word sion which authorized the state prison agents, at " the" before the word " power." He, howev. all times thereafter, to receive into custody, un- er thought it was better not to insert that word. der an order of the Governor, any person who He also suggested that there should be left no had been convicted of crime, and whose sentence doubt of the Governor's power to commute the of death had been commuted to imprisonment punishment of persons convicted of treason, and for life, or a term of years. Here was an order intimated that the words " in all cases," after given to a subordinate to receive into custody a the word "commute," in the third line, would man whose sentence of death the Governor make that intelligible, which was now doubt. might commute; but doubts were entertained ful. whether this gave the power to commute, and Mr STETSON suggested the introduction of 16 242 the word " only" in the sixth line, so that the passage woul i read thus: — t, Upon conviction for treason, he shall only have power so suspend the execution of the sentence," &c. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN said thn gentle. man from Ontario had told them that it had been settled in the legislature that it did not possess the pardoning power-with that he did not agree. Mr. WORDEN denied that he had said so. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN:-Well. then, that it was the "better" opinion there. Mr. WORDEN: Oh, I took that back too. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN explained the action of the legislature on this subject. By a jesolution which he offered, it was brought up with the view of interfering on behalf of the men of Delaware county, who were yesterday alluded to by one of its representatives, (Mr. WATERBURY.) His resolution, which he submitted to the Senate, called upon the circuit judge to report the testimony in the case. A doubt arose at the time; it was referred to the judiciary committee, whose report at the end of the session, left the matter pretty much as it was when it was first introduced. He expressed the opinion hat the legislature did possess the par. doning power; but still as doubts existed else. where, the question should be settled. The amendment of Mr. SHEPARD was then rejected. Subsequently a motion was made to reconsider, on the ground that fhe question, when put, was not distinctly understood. But after some conversation the motion was negatived. Mr. TAGGART moved to amend. by striking out the sentence: "t He may grant pardons upon such conditions, and with such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper." Mr. RUSSELL spoke in favor of the report as it came from the committee. The amendment was negatived. Mr. DANA moved an amendment, so as to pro. vide that the Governor should not have power to commute the sentence for treason. The amendment was lost. Mr. RUSSELL then offered an amendment, giving the Governor the power to commute sentence of death, in all cases, to imprisonment for life. Strike out, c" He may commute sentence of death to imprlsonment il a state prison lor life. He may grant p-tdons upon such conditions, and with such restric. tions and limitations as he may think proper"-and insert-" He may grant such pardons upon such conditi.ns, and wish such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper; and he may commute sentence of death,, iu any case, to imprisonment in a state prison for life." The amendment was lost-32 to 35. Mr. STETSON now moved his amendment, (indicated above.) Mr. STOW hoped this amendment would prevail. The Governor and his agents may be guilty of treason, and this power should be vested with the legislature. Mr. WORDEN also hoped the amendment would be agreed to. It was agreed to. Mr. TAGGART offered the following amendment: After the word proper, insert-" except that no pardon shall be grante;: upon condition that the convict shall leave the stale or the United States ); Mr. STOW opposed this, and Mr. TAGGART replied, when the amendment was negatived. Mr. TAGGART then moved to amend so that the legislature might restrain, restrict or limit the pardoning power in cases of conviction for murder. Lost. Mr. STOW moved to amend as follows: Insert "' or commute the sentence" in this clause" When the legislature shall either pardon, or commute the sentence, or direct the execution," &c. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. TALLMADAGE moved to strike out the following, which was lost: " S'ating the name of the convict, the crime of which he was convicted, the sentence and its date, and the date of the commutation, pardon, or reprieve." The sixth section was then read as follows:~ 6 In case of the impeachment of the Governor, or his removal from office, death, inability from mental or physical disease, resignation, or absence from the state, the powers and duties shall devolve upon the Lieut. Governor for the residue of the tern, or until the Governor absent or impeached shall return or the disability shall cease But when the Govt rnor shall, with the consent of the legislature, be out of the state in time of war, at the head of; military force thereof, he shill continue Commander-in-Chief o all the military force of the state. Mr. TAGGART moved to insert "disability" instead of "inability." Lost. Mr. T. moved further to amend by inserting after the word "disease," the words "to dis. charge the duties of his office." Mr. JORDAN moved to strike out the wiords "from mental or physical disease." He said inability might arise from other causes than these. The Governor might be convicted of a crime and shut up in prison, and thus be unable to discharge the duties of this office. Mr. BROWN objected to the word inability. Who was to determine this vague question. If insanity was intended,who was to determine that fact? He alluded to the memorable case in Great Britain in 88, when the king was declared to be insane-which gave rise to so much agitation-and which divided the two parties therethe law making no provision for such a case — for on the one hand insisting that the heir appa. rent had become king, and till that the sovereignty was in parliament. The result was that they proceeded to do, what we should provide for here, if we retained this word inability-instituted an enquiry and ascertained the factHe insisted either that this word should not be here, or that provision should be made for ascertaining the fact of inability. Mr. W. TAYLOR insisted that if this word was struck out, there would be no provision made for the case of a Governor's becoming Insane. He preferred, however to adopt the language of the U. S. constitution and to say " ina. bility to discharge the powers and duties of said office." Mr.WORDEN:-How ascertain that inability? Mr. W. TAYLOR: —A palpable ease would require no formal adjudication. Mr. WORDEN:-Suppose it is not a palpable case? Mr. W. TAYLOR:-Then he would continue 243 in the discharge of his duty. The legislature GOoernor and Lieut. Governor, and of each of them, vould, makle provision houwever for such cases. 1declaring what officer shall act in both cases, or in Mr. WOlRDEN: —Thcre might be a contro. Mr. M UR1PHY (while Mr. S. was penning his versy between the Governor and Liutenant Mr HY (il M. S was nnin Governor, and the latter might undlertake in high amendment) moved to strike out —" tile Gover. party tiines to declare cthe Governor insane nor absent or impeached, shall return, or" —so Mr. W. TAYLOR thoulht the United States that the clause should read, " for the residue of constitution was a good model to follow. tthe term, or until the disability shall cease." Mr. HARRISON suggested the words " ina. This motion was aged to. bility to servce." Mr. SIMMONS' proposition now coming up, Mr. SIMMONS thought the word should be Mr.JONES remarked that the caseo te retained. The mode of ascertaining the fact iut. Governor was rovidet d r in the consti. mig'ht be providel by law. The United States tution-the President of the Senate taking his to Conress te ower to place. The constitution of the U. S. lhad no constitution gave such provision in it, and therefore required con. vide lor the removal or disability of the Presi. dent. All possible cases of inability should be ET cale d attention to wha ith r. SETSON called attention to what he The ueovited for characterized as the serious, important, radical The question was here taken on striking out cr re s i "friom mental or physical disease," and carried. cLane suggested by Mr. SIMMONS. It was Mr. KENNEDY roiS osedtl to strie out " or equivalent to the power of impeachment vested im)eacled," as unnecessary-the word inability,s.;. Mr. JONES suggested that those words should M SIMMOS ured tha if this word bn "oMr. SIMMONS urged that if this word inabe retained, and the words "or be acquitted" bility was retained, we must reuie te legislaaddledl. 'bility was retained, we must require the legislaThle committee refused to strike out as movre to provide by lawnotas te caseniht arise, hut prospectively, for ascertaining this inMr.. TAYLOR move to a after "in ability. The word should be in, but not unless Mr. W. TAYLOR moved to add after " in.a-w posn bility"-" to discharge the powers and duties accomplanied wih thisot er provision. of the said office." Mr. STETSON replied that the difficulty was o f: tile s ai d. oli.er." Mr. WORDoEN would vote for tlat if the gen. that the proposition would give the legislature tleinan would add also the provision of the Uni ower not to suly a vcancy but to ake one. ted States constitution tbr ascertaining the disa. Mr. S hohhe oentemn m Mr. SIMMONS thouggeht he gentleman misap. hility-making it the duty of the legislature to prehened entirely his amendment. It did not provide a mode. Otherwise, there would be no e al body competent to say wlere the disability give the legislature power to act upon cases as al body competent to say where the disabilityse. they arose-but to provide for determining such arose. stions in future. Mr. W. TAYLOR replied that the United que fit States constitution p)rovided that Congress should Mri TOWNSEND. Why not decide such prescribe the mode of filling the place of Presi questions, as others were —by a commission of dent not for ascertaining the fact of inability lunacy? en, ai l i. Mr. SIMMONS. Because it would be very We haod here a provision for fillng the place of inconvenient to throw all things that differed as Mr. RIUGGLES suteted to ald to Mr.TAY- lr as heaven and earth, ant i which are as diLoR's amendment tes e rse b o rs. erse as the four Beasts in Daniel, into one and 's amendment "to be deelarel by joint reso- the same mill. We want ear marks to things lution of tihe two houses olf the legislatulre." t Mtin Wo TYLOR assentes th l atu. e in this country to distinguish one from another, Mr. W. TAYLOR assented to that. Mr. NICHOLAS suggested that, in the ab. and in matters of government particularly at sence f any ision ere r ascertain the least to avoid the promiscuous transcendentalism sence of any provision liere lbr ascertaining the G m Laughter.1 fact of a disability, it became the province of Germny. [Lau ter.] the legislature to provide the mode, as a matter Mr. SI s' amendment was lost, and Mr. of course. The word should be retained, to TAYL JORd' s agre oed t o o te ast. cover cases of insanity-for a Governor, in a fit Mr. JORDAN t hen movedas t modify te last of alienation, miglit pardon half the convicts in the state prison; and the legislature milht not " But when the Governor shall, with the consent of convene in six months. the legisl;tture, be out of the state in time of war, at Moven inO su nthis c: lie head of a military force, he shall continue camMr. STOW suggested this clause: mander-in-chief of such miittary force."' ' The legislature may declare the inability of the Mr JORDAN explained that in the absence Goveruor, or of the person admninister ng the duies of the oltice of Governor, by a vote of four-iftha of all the of thle governor, it niglt be necessary ihat the kmenmbers elected to each house; and for this Ipurpose person filling his place should have command of th. Chief Ji,stice of the Supreme Court may convene the military force left. the I gislature." Mr WORDEN supposed the object of this Mr. W. TAYLOR, upon reflection, preferred wvas to give the governor thus absent, tile power not to accept Mr. RUGGLES' addition to his to call after him the residue ol tile militiaamendlm ent. which the acting governor lriglt p)revent. Mr. SIMMONS moved to add to Mr. TAY. Mr JORDAN had in view an entirely differ. LOR's amendment these words-ibeing substan. ent case —a case when a rcquisition i migiht -be tially tile provision of the U. S. Constitution:- made on tile state for an additional military "And the legislature may by laRV provide for thie case Iorce. and when the emergency would not adtsit of the removal, death, resignation or inability of the olf delay lor orders from the absent Governor. 244 Mr. J.'s amendment was lost. Mr. DANA offered tire following substitute for the whole section:In case of the impeachment of the Governor, or his removal from office, death, inability to discharge the powers and duties of his office, resignation or absence from the state, (except with the consent of the legislature itimne of war at the head of a military force of the state,) the powers and duties of his office shall devolve ou the Licutenant-Governor for the residue of the term, or until the disability cease. Mr DANA offered this to express his views of what the section should be-that the Governor, though absent, as provided, should be commander in-chiet: The amendment was lost. Mr. STOW now renewed his proposition (before given) modified so as to give two-thirds of the legislature power to decide on a case of inability-and giving the speaker of the assembly power to convene the legislature for that purpose. Mr. S. said he could never consent to leave the word inability there, without providing some tribunal for ascertaining it. It was such a question as this that shook the British throne to its foundations. The safest tribunal he could devise was the legislature, by a two-third vote. He was sorry to take up time by a single remark; but he could not consent to involve the country in the danger of revolution because it might take a little time to make provision for this contingency. Mr. TAGGART hoped the Convention would not vote down this from habit. It was a proposition that deserved consideration. Mr. WORDEN said its propriety was obvious. Leave in this word inability, and provide no mode of determining the question of inabil. ity, and we left open a door to anarchy and confusion. Mr. STETSON insisted that it gave the legislature power to expel the Executive, from factious considerations( It destroyed the whole symmetry of the system of impeachment. Why not make it conform more nearly to that sys. tern? Mr. WORDEN replied, that it was more guarded than the mode of impeachment. A majority of one branch might impeach. This required two-tlirds of both houses. And t; waa hardly to be supposed that two-thirds of any legislature would venture to remove a Governor, from factious or party considerations.Would the gentleman leave this word inability to stand, without any power any where to define and regulate it? Mr. CAMBRELENG thought there could be no difficulty about this. In case of the lunacy of the Governor, the constitution provided who should be Governor. There was no vacancy-no regency. The Lieut. Governor would act. Mr. WORDEN: But when and how is the fact of lunacy to be ascertained? Mr. CAMBRELENG replied that the fact would be notorious. What Lieut. Governor would wait a moment, if the Governor was sent to an asylum? or suppose lie was confined in his own house, was not the constitution suflicient? would not the legislature under this word inabi. lity, be at liberty to make explanatory clauses? Our constitution provides our regent. The Bri. tish constitution had no such provision-and hence Parliament had to act. ~The Lieut. Gover. nor must act. Mr. STOW: Suppose the Lieut. Governor himself is insane? Mr. W. TAYLOR remarked that if the Lieut. Governor, usurpes authority he would be liable to impeachment and would be impeached. Mr. WORDEN: You would throw on the Lieut. Governor the responsibility of judging of the case in which he shall act, with the peril of an impeachment hanging over his head? Mr. W. TAYLOR:-Only in a palpable caseMr. BROWN submitted that these words inability and disability should be struck out, leav. ing the constitution to stand as it had these 20 years and no difficulty growing out of it. As to this remedy of impeachment, it was too slow a process. It might last as long as that of Warren Hastings, or that of Judge Peck-the one continued 13 years-the other through a whole session of Congress. The cases of inability specified in the old constitution were self-evi. dent. But this general term inability might give rise to great difficulty. He repeated, it should be struck out. Mr. NICHOLAS again insisted that it would devolve on the legislature, without any special provision here, to specify cause of disability by general statute. Mr. MANN preferred to strike out the word inability-leaving the old constitution as it stood. Mr. STOW had no objection to that course, and withdrew his amendment, in order to have a vote on striking out. Mr. BROWN then moved to strike out all the new matter in this section. Mr. SIMMONS did not see what would be gained by that. Strike out this word inability, and still the thing would exist in the world, and must be provided for. His proposition to require the legislature to provide prospectively for such cases of inability, before they occurred, and when there could be no party or other disturbing influences bearing on the legislature, was the true course. Mr. MORRIS said the committee in drawing this section supposed it was the duty of the committee on the powers and duties oi the leg. islature to require the passage of the proper laws in such cases. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN opposed stri. king out, insisting that there should be some general term which should include all cases of disability. He argued that so long as there was a rational doubt as to the ability of the Governor, nobody ought to be at liberty to in. terfere. But in a plain palpable case, this word would enable the Lieutenant Governor to assume the office. Under this proposition, it would be in the power of a party majority to thrust out a Governor, on the slightest pretexts. He preferred to leave the responsibility of assuming the Executive oflice, in case of the ina. bility of the incumbent, on the Lieutenant Gov. ernor. The committee refused to strike out. Mr. STOW then renewed his amendment, further modifying it so as to require a majority of three-fourths to declare the Governor incapable. Mr. S. urged that in this shape it 245 avoided the objections of the gentleman from Clinton, and others-and would also avoid the incongruity and hazard of allowing the Lieutenant Governor to be the sole judge in a case in which he would be interested. The consti. tution now provided that the legislature by a two.third vote might remove a judge of the supreme court. Why should not thleef-ourths be allowed to decide upon a case of inability? Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN objecte i that it would be in the power of the Speaker of the House in advance to decide the question-indeed virtually to impeach the Governor by calling the legislature together. Mr. RICHMOND replied that any speaker who should call the legislature together without sufficient cause, would only impeach him. self. It would be suicide. He could see no possible danger to arise under this proposition, and he regarded some such provision absolutely necessary. Mr. LOOMIS objected to the amendment; it changed the tribunal that now had jurisdiction in such cases. If the Lieutenant Governor should adopt the office of Governo;, the judiciary, upon a quo warranto, would determine the question whether he was rightfully exercising the office. Besides, no man who had the slightest regard for his own reputation, unless indeed he designed a civil revolution, would ever usurp the office of Governor. It was scarcely a possible case. Mr. WORDEN insisted that without some tribunal to determine this question of inability, the government might be thrown into inextricable confusion. Every act done by an Executive who was incompetent could and would be contested in your courts. The presumption would be that the Governor was competen', and the party in every case, setting up the act of the Lieutenant Governor, would be obliged to prove the inability of the Governor to act-unless some provision was made for determining the question. And these questions of incapacity-lor instance, the capacity to make a willwere often exceedingly difficult questions.Surely it was unsafe to leave this natter of the ability of the Governor to sign bills, or patents, or do any other official act —entirely open.Prompt action too would be necessary in case of the insanity of the Governor. He could not call the legislature together under such circum. stances; nor could the judiciary act promptly enough in such a case. A quo warranto might hang in the courts for years. He regarded this proposition as eminently wise and conservative, and was astonished that it had not struck sensible men as having force and weight. Mr. RHOADES suggested that this proposition be withdrawn, and reserved until we came to the article on the powers and duties of the legislature. Mr. STOW, with all deference to the gentle. man's opinion, thought this precisely the time and place to determine how the office of Governor should be filled in cases of inability.As to proceeding by quo warranto, gentlemen seemed to overlook the fact that under that writ questions of fact were determined by a jury.Was it not quite as safe to leave it to a jury composed of the whole legislature? Mr. RHOADES was not opposed to some such provision. His objection was that this was no the place lor the more general provision that should be made. Mr. STOW replied briefly, when The question was put and his amendment lost-28 in the affirmative. Mr. O'CONOR proposed a clause providing that the president of the senate should take the place of the Lieut. Governor, where the latter was similarly removed -saying that lie proposefl it in order that he might renew it, should the last proposition be successfully renewed in the house. T'Ie amendment was lost. The seventh section was then read, as follows: 7. The lieutenant-governor shall be president of the senate, but shall have only a casting vote tb-rein. It during a vacancy of the office of governor the lieutenant-governur shall be impeached, displaced, resign, die, or irom mental or physical disease become incapable of ptrftrming the dunes of his office, or be absetlt from the state, the president of the senate shall act as governor until the vacancy shall be filled, or the disability shall cease. Mr. W. 1 AYLOR moved to strike out "from mental or physical disease." Carried. Mr. CROOKER moved to strike out "his duties,:' and insert, "the duties of his office." Carried. Mr. F. F. BACKUS moved to insert, after " Lieut Governor" in the first line-" shal possess the same qualifications of elegibilily as are required of the Govrrnor," &c. Carried, 35 to 34. Mr. O'CONOR moved to strike out all after the words, ' casting vote therein." Lost. The eighth section was then read as follows: ~ 8. The lieutenant-governor shall receive six dollars for every days' attendance as president of the senate; and he shall also receive the like comp:ensation tor every twenty miles travel in going to and returning from the place of meeting of the senate in the discharge of his duties. Mr. NICHOLAS moved to strike out the section. Mr. BAKER proposed to amend, so as to pro. vide that the Lieut. Governor should receive the same mileage as members of the Senate. Mr. TILDEN supposed, as we had refused to fix the compensation of the Governor, that this section would be struck out. Mr. RICHMOND, though opposed to fixing the salary of the Governor, he dlid not regard that officer as standing on the same ground as other officers. He preferred, before the ques. tion of fixing the salaries of other officess, the judiciary, for instance, was determined, to see how large a retinue of judges we should have. Some said thirty, and some fifty. and some seventy. In such a case, he should be for fixing their salaries in the Constitution, rather than leaving it to the legislature, under the in. fluence of a powerful lobby. Mr. BAKER withdrew his motion to amend, and moved to strike out the section. The CHAIR stated that there was a substitute for the entire section on the table, offered by Mr. RHOADES. providing that the compen. sation of the Lieut. Governor should b: established by law, and should not be altered da: ring his continuance in office 246 This substitute was adopted. I sence for him. He now, to reciprocate the favor, The committee then rose and reported pro. moved that Mr. STRONG have leave ot abgress. sence for two weeks. [Roars of laughter.] Mr. CHATFIELD here said, that during his Leave was granted. Also, to Mr. MUNRO absence one day last week, his friend from for 6 days. Monroe had the kindness to ask leave of ab. Adjourned to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. WEDNESDAY, JULY 15. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. HITCHCOCK. [I 8. No person holding an office or place of public Mr. BOUCK presented a petition of Samuel trust, in or underthe government of the United Stat s, Wi s, shall be eligible to. or hold, any ottice, or place of pub. White and others, on the subject of the debt and lic trust under the constitutirn or laws of this -tate ] finances of the state, which was referred to The committee further report for the consideration committee number three. of the Convention, and recommend to be submitted to Mr ROUCK presented a plan for a judiciary, the people separately, the following addi iolal secsigned by a judge of the common pleas of Scho. tion: harie county. Referred to the judiciary corn. 9 Colored,nile citizens, possessing the qualifications ittee. required by the first section of this article, shill also ELECTIVE FRANCHISEt have the right to vote fobr all officers, thit,now are, or hereafter may be, elective by the people Mr. BOUCK, from committee number four, WM. C. BuUCK, Chairman. made the following report: with the observation On the moiion of Mr. BOUCK, the report was that it was made with the unanimous approba- referred to the committee of the whole, and or. tion of the committee, though the members of the dered to be printed. committee had not all agreed to the whole of its Mr. DORLON, fromthe same committee, subsections, and reserved to themselves the right mitted, as a minority report, the following as a to present their views in committee of the whole substitute for the first section:on the subject. ~ 1. Every male citizen, of the age of twenty-one The Secretary read the report as follows:- years, who shall have been a citizen for sixty days, The conmittee on the elective fran hise-thequa and an;t inhabitant of this state one year next preceding ificaition to vote and hold office," submit for the con- aiy election, and for the last six moulhs a resident ol sideration of the Couveution, the following proposed the county where he may ofer his vote, and shl ave Article: within the year next preceding such election, paid a ARTICLE -. tax to the state or county, assessel upon his estate, or Art. 2, sec. I modified. can read the English language, shall be entitled to vote ~ 1. Every white male citizen of the age of twenty. at such election, in the election district or which he e years, who shall have been a tienr sixty da shall have been an actual resident during the last pre. one years, wvho shall have been a citizen br sixty days, c-ding sixty days, and not elsewhe, e, for all officers and an inhabitant of this state one year next preceding six y dayse anor h rnot e elewhte, tr a ll officers any election, and for ti e last six months a resident of tr hereaer m be elective y the people. the county where he may offer his vote, shall be enti- On the motion of Mr. CHATFIELD, it was tled to vo e ut such election, in the election district of referred to the committee of the whole, and orwhich he shqll have been on actual resident during the t b report last preceding sixty days, and not elsewhere; for alldered to be ted with the report of the m officers that now are, or hereafter may be, elective by jority. the people. LOCAL OFFICERS. Alt. 2, sec 2 modified. ~ 2 Laws may be passed excluding from the right of Mro ANGEL, from committee number seven, suffrage all persons who have been or may be convicted submitted the following report:of bribery, of larceny, or of any infamous crime; [an The standing committee No. sevenI,( Ol the ap for depriving every person who shill have a bet or poinimen or election oall ofices whose funcions wager depending upon the direct or indirect result of are local, and their tenure o' office, povers, duties any election, from the right to vote at such election ] and compensation,' respectfully report in part per[~ 3 Laws may be passed providing that after the frmance of the duties committed to them, the followyear one thousand eight hundred and fiftyfive, no per- ng proposed article, in lieu of part of article Jour, in son shall have the right of suffrage under this consli- the existing constitution. tution, unless he can read the English language ]ART R S Part I chap 6, title 4 sec. 21, modified. ATICLE. [~ 4. For the purpose no voting. no person shall be ~ 1. Sheiiffs, clerks of counties, including the reg. deemed to have gained or lost a residence by reason of ister anid clerk of the city and county of New York, his presence or absence, while employed in the service coroners, not exceeding four in each county, and Di.of the United Statez; nor while engaged in the naviga- trict Attorney, shall be chosen, by the electors of the tion of th waters of this state, or of the United States, respective counties, once in every two years, and as or of the high seas; nor while a student of any semi- often as vacancies shall happen. Sherit's shall hold nary of learning; nor while kept at any alms house or no other office, and be ineligible f')r the next two years other asylum at public expense; nor while confined in after the termination of their offices. They may be any public prison J required, by law, to renew their security, from time Art. 2 sec 3. to time; and in default of giving uch new security, 6. Laws shall be made for ascertaining by proper their offices shall be deemed vacant. But the county proofs the citizens who shall be entitled to the right of shall never be made responsible for the acts of the suffrage hereby established. sheriff-and the governor may remove any such officer Art 2 -ec. 4 except District Attorney within the term for which ~ 6. All elections by the citizens shall be by ballot, he shall have been elected; giving to such officer a exeept for such town officers as may by law be direct- copy of thb charges against him, and an opportunity ed to be otherwise chosen. of being heard in his defence. [~ 7 Every elector of this state shall be eligible to [ 2. District attorneys may be removed from office, any office under this constitution, except as herein oth- at any time within the term for which they shall have wise provided. But no person shall be elected or ap been elected, by the county courts of the respective pointed to a local office who is nbt an elector in the counties of this state, giving to such cistrict attorney district, county, city, town or ward for which he may a copy of the charges against him, and an opportunity be elected or appointed J of being heard in his defence.] 247 [~ 3. The board of supervisors shall fix the number of superintendents of the poor, who shall be chosen by the electors, not exceeding th ee in each county: and where more thai one shall he chosen ill each county, they shall divide them into classes, so that one shall be chosen each year, alter the first election J [~ 4 A county treasurer shall be annually chosen by the electors of each county. He shall hold his office for one year, unless sooner removed. He may be required by the board uf supervisors to give such security as they shall approve, And to renew the same from time to timle; and in ca-e of default in giving or renewving such security, when required, his office shall b e ie ed vacant. The board of supervisors of each county shall have pvjwer to remove such treasurer from office, whenever they shall deem such removal necessary for the safety of the county, giving such treasurer a copy of the charges against him, and an opportunity of being heard in his defence; and shall have power to till all vacancies in the office of county treasu er, by app;ointient, until the next annual election.] ~ 6 Mayors of cities in the several cities in this state, shall be chosen antitally by the electors entitled to vote for members of the common councils of such cities respectively ~ 6. All officers now elected by the people shall continue to be elected. [All county officers whose election or appointed is not provided for by this constitution, shall be elected by the electors of the respective counties orappoitited by the boards of supervisors, as the legislature shall direct. Allcity, town and village officers, whose election or appointment is not provided for by this constitution, shall be elected by the electors of such cities, towns and villages, or appointed by such authorities thereof, as the legislature shall designate for that purpose.] All other officers whose election or apoinintrmeot is not provided for by this constitution, and all officers, whose offices may hereafter be created by law, shall be elected by the people, or appointed, as the legislature may by law direct. [~ 7. The several officers, in this article alluded to, shall possess the powers, and perform the duties now provided by law, and suctl as the legislature shall, iereafter, from time to time, by law, direct.] [~8 The legislature shall regulate by law, the fees or compensation of all county, town or other officers, for whose compensation no other provision is made in this constitution.] [~ 9 The board of supervisors in each county shall fix the ainual compensation of the district attorney, which shall not be changed, after his election, during the term for which he shall have been chosen ] ~ 10. Where the duration of any office is not provided by this:onstitution, it may be declared by law: and if not so declared, such office shall be held during the pleasure of the authority making the appointment. By order of the committee W. G. ANGEL, Ch'n. Mr. A. said that the committee were unani. mous in making the report, but not in all its details-and the individual members of the committee, therefore, reserved to themselves the right to state their own views in committee of the whole. He further stated, that Oi looking over the list of officers, they found it impracticable to incorporate the titles of all in the constitu tion, inasmuch as it would make the instrument unnecessarily voluminous. They had omitted any nention of judicial officers, for the reason that the judiciary committee have that subject under consideration, and it was their intention to report so far as related to surrogates, county judges, clerks of courts, &c. The committee had therefore omitted all mention of that class of officers, although their functions and duties were local. There was another class which they had omitted to say anything about-such as weighers, measurers, inspectors, &c.; and there were other officers which they had left the legislature to dispose of as it might deem best. There was another class-such as port.masters, harbor. masters, &c., whose duties affect the public gen. erally, whom they had however thought it was improper to mal'e elective by the people at large, because such a course would incumber the ticket and be very inconvenient-the committee had therefore made a general provision to leave the disposition of them to the legislature. There were likewise health officers, resident physi. cians, &c., which the committee grouped together under one general head in the report. Then there were turnpike inspectors, peace makers, &c., of which the committee had only noticed the most essential, recommending the election of some that are now appointed otherwise. He was in hopes the report would meet with the approbation of the Convention. He did not expect by any means that it would be entirely proof against the severity of that scrutiny to which he knew it would be subjected; but when the Convention should be in committee upon it, the members of the committee would give the reasons which influenced them in coming to the conclusions they had reported. He would only add now that they had acted according to the best light they could obtain. The report was then referred to the committee of the whole, and ordered to be printed. COMMITTEE ON THE ORDER OF BUSINESS. Mr. LOOMIS submitted the following resolt. tion: Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed to consider the order in which it is expedient to take np in committee, the several reports of the standing committees He said, in explanation, that there were some reports more important to the public than others; some would require the earnest attention of the Convention, and it was possible, judging from the past, that they would not have ample time to consider all of them in such a manner as they desired. It was therefore important that they should take up and consider first those of the deepest interest-those respecting which the public voice had most emphatically demanded a change. He supposed without some arrangement, the order of business would be the order in which the reports were presented, and that would by no means conform to the views which he entertained on the subject. In making the motion however, he desired to suggest a deviation from what had become the parliamel.tary practice of putting the mover of such a resolution at the held of the committee to be raised under it.He wished to be excused from service on the committee, and of the parliamentary custom al. luded to, he would remark that it was a rule which he thought was "better in the breach than the observance." The resolution was adopted, and the committee appointed, as follows:-Messrs. LOOMIS, PORTER, KENNEDY, W. A. WRIGHT, and TAFFT. Mr. HARRISON offered the following, which was agreed to:Resolved, That it be referred to committee number ten, to enquire whether the definition of,c treason against the people of this state," as given in the Revised Statutes, vol. 2, past 4, page 646, or some other to be presented by the committee, ought not to be incorporated into the new Constitution EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT, The Convention again resolved itself into corn mittee of the whole on the report of standing 248 committee number five, respecting the duties and powers of the Executive, Mr. CHATFIELD in the chair. The Secretary read the 9th section as follows: $ 9. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor, or either of them shall not, ex-officio or otherwise, hold any other office or trust, honor, profit or er;olument under the State or United States, or any other State of the Union, or any other foreign State or Government; the acceptance by the person holding the office of Governor or Lieutenant Governor, of any other office of trust, honor, profit or emolument under the Stale, or the United States, or any other state of the Union, or any foreigt State or Government, shall vacate his said office of Governor or Iieutenalt Governor. Mr. BROWN desired to take the sense of the committee on the propriety of retaining this sectiot. This section designed to forbid the Governor and the Lieutenant Governor to hold any other office of trust, honor, profit, or emolument under the state or the United States. In respect to that he thought it was of questionable propriety. The CHAIRMAN enquired if the gentleman intended to propose an amendment. Mr. BROWN said he proposed to strike out the whole of it. Mr. W. TAYLOR requested the Chair to read a provision which was in the report of the Fourth standing committee relative to other offices. The Secretary read the 8th section of the report alluded to as follows: ~ 8. No person holding any office or place of public trust, in or under the government of the United States, shall be eligible to, or hold any office or Iplace of public trust uinder the Constitution or laws of this state. Mr. BROWN said his object in making the motion to strike out was to have the opportunity to renew his motion when they got back into the house. He considered the provision a questionable one considering the structure and nature of our government. The states of this Union were sovereign andindependent in themselves, but there might be emergencies, in case of war for instance, when the Governors of frontier states might be called upon to take important parts in such wars. The contingency might be of this character; there might be a war with Great Britain-of which however he did not see any probability, and yet it was proper that we should be prepared-and the Governor might be called upon to take such a part as the Governor'of this state took in the late war. The Governor might be called upon by the President of the United States to take charge of the U. S. troops in this state or to negotiate with the authorities of Canada or Great Britain, and the Governor ought not to be prevented from accepting that delegated authority. Such a power was not inconsistent with the constitution under which we have lived for many years without any particular evil having arisen. Mr. MORRIS trusted the provision would not. be stricken out. In his judgment it was a proper provision. Gentlemen holding office under this state, should not be trammelled by the general government, and especially by engagements with other states and foreign governments. He saw a learned friend from New York was laughing, probably because he was in a peculiar position, as well as his friend. " the admiral," (Mr. HOFFMAN.) both being officers under the general government, [Post Master of New York, and Naval officer of that port,] and delegates of the people of this state in this Convention. But he should not be deterred from doing his duty from any apprehension of personal ridicule. He was not unconscious of the position in which he stood; and he would tell the committee what his views were on that subject. He held that no obligation to the general government should interfere with the sacred duty due to the people. He thought they should not be subjected to the influence of the general government-that they should not certainly be subjected to the influence of any adjoining state or a foreign power, and that no gentleman holding an office under the state should be placed in such a position. Now a word as to the suggestion of his friend from Orange. They were acting upon principle, and the individual mentioned might properly discharge these duties to the state and to the general government; but he asked, whether, as a principle, it would not be dangerous in the extreme. Might it not be dangerous in the extreme to permit the Governor of the state to be at the head of 100,000 regular hired troops? And would it not be better whenever the national government might find it ne. cessary to send within our limits, a band of 100,000 troops that the militia should be separated from them? Would there not be greater protection for the populace, by the militia against those very regular troops? It struck him a case of that sort might arise when it would be very advantageous to have the commander-in-chief of the militia. when particularly called on to defend our rights, not at the same time the commander of the 100,000 United States troops that might be sent here. He trusted the section would not be stricken out. Mr. JORDAN was opposed to striking out the section, because he wished to offer an amendment which should read thus: " Neither the Governor nor Lieut. (overnor shall hold any other office of profit or emolument, or mnilitary command under this or any other state or foreign government; the acceptance by either of any such office or command, shall vacate his said office of Governor or Lieut. Governor." It was objected that it would be proper that the Governor should hold such an office as that of Regent of the University. His amendment would steer clear of that objection. There were other objections which he thought were obviated by his amendment. Mr. PATTERSON said if it should be thought proper to retain any thing of the ki;ld, he preferred the amendment of the gentleman from Columbia. As reported by committee number five, it would conflict with the report of the committee of which Mr. CHATFIELD was chairman.He thought, however, some modification might be necessary; for if the Governor and Lieutenant Governor were to hold no office of trust, hon. or or profit, the Lieutenant Governor would not be able to act with the Speaker of the Assembly, Comptroller, and others, as commissioner of the land office-or with the Secretary of State and others, as commissioner of the canal fund. Now it would not answer to adopt the provision proposed by committee number five, and then a lopt those reported by Mr. CHATFIELD'S committee. The Lieutenant Governor, for many years, had 249 been one of the commissioners of the canal fund; he was also one of the canal board, as a matter ofcourse, and likewise of the land office. If then they were to retain any thing of this, it seemed to him the amendment of the gentleman from Columbia would be preferable; but it would be necessary to make some further amendment even in that. Mr. SWACKHAMER expressed surprise that gentlemen should act there as though there was but one or two men in this state competent to do its business. A Governor is elected, and it appeared he became all at once the greatest man in the state, and the Lieutenant Governor became the next greatest, and therefore they must hold all the offices. He thought the chairman of the committee, (Mr. MORRIS,) had given an unanswerable argument why this provi. sion should be retained. He held that the Governor should confine himself to the duties of his station; they were quite sufficient without hav. ing any others thrown in. In relation to the argumrent of the gentleman from Essex, Mr. S. feared the Governor would identify himself with any institution of which he might be a trustee, and use an undue influence in its favor. They had in New-York the Sailors' Snug Harbor, the University, and some others, and how often did they come to the legislature, under the patronage of the Executive of the state, and rob the peo. ple. "Deliver us from temptation," was his motto. He was not, therefore, desirous of having the Executive in a position in which he might be tempted to promote the interests of one institution at the expense of others, and of the people. Mr. W. TAYLOR thought the gentleman was mistaken in supposing that any thing was drawn from the treasury for literary institutions of which the Governor is ex-officio trustee. He thought the gentleman would find it difficult to point out any one which the Governor had re. commended, of which he was trustee. The office of the Governor in those institutions was advisory, but he had never come here and recommended appropri tions for their benefit; and the Governor might advantageously retain a position in which he could give salutary advice to those institutions. He would favor the proposition of the gentleman from Columbia so far as to prevent the Governor from receiving any appointment under the general government, whether of trust, honor, or profit. But in the case supposed by the gentleman from Orange (Mr BROWN), he thought the Governor might be usefully employed, and consistently with the character of Governor. With regard to this state, he thought the Executive should hold no other office of profit or emolument, but a trust or post of honor he would not prohibit. Mr. RICHMOND understood the gentleman front Onondaga (Mr. W. TAYLOR), to tell them that they had never found the Governor coming there and recommending to favor these seminaries. Mr. W. TAYLOR interposed to explain. He said the Governor had not made such recommendations as trustee. Generally as Governor, he doubtless did recommend institutions to favor for the good of the state. Mr^:RICHMOND agreed with the gentleman from Onondaga, that the Governor had not done this as trustee. He certainly would not be so imprudent as to do it. But the recommendation of the Governor, without saying that he was a trustee, would have great weight with the legislature. He would keep back the fact that he was a trustee, lest it should excite suspicion.If he were a shrewd, calculating man he would keep it back. But suppose the Governor did not make any recommendation of' appropria. tion; still gentlemen made propositions to appropriate thousands of dollars to these higher seminaries of the money belonging to all the people, and which should go to sustain the free and common schools-and Governors had been and might again become members of the legislative body-and if it was referred to him to sanction, could he act upon it as an independent man? When such a measure too was put into his hands to sign as Governor he might do so when he ought to have put his veto on it. No Governor would even venture to reject such a bill. If the veto power were lodged in the Go. vernor, it was necessary that he should be un. trammelled to act without being subjected to the influence that would be thrown around him in consequence of being a trustee of one of these institutions. Mr R. did not charge corruption on the Governor, for he believed they had generally acted as other men would act. But there had been great abuses of the public money carried out through this system. He knew and others knew a president of a certain institution in the western part of the state who was here a whole winter, lobbying for an appropriation out of the deposit fund, to endow that particular professorship of which he was president. He had a salary of some $200 which he received from that institution, his duties to which he neglected, that he might lobby here to get a bill through apportioning a sum for its endowment. Mr. WORDEN. And a very proper bill it was too. Mr. HOFFMAN said it appeared to him that the amendment of the gentleman from Columbia did not reach the object in the most unexcep. Lionable and best manner. Mr. H. held that the Governor and Lieut. Governor should hold no office from any government. No office. A Governor of this state should allow that office alone to be sufficient to satisfy his ambition. It was sufficient to fill his mind with care and to occupy all his solicitude; and he hoped the gentleman from Columbia would amend his amendment while it was in his power, so as to exclude those two officers from holding any other office under any government whatever. Mr. H. himself here held office under the people of the state while he was a public functionary. But if in drawing up the Convention act every federal functionary had been excluded, where would have been the harm? There would have been no injury. No gentleman here would have regarded that as an injpry; he would have resigned his place and, come here, for it was only once in a long life time that a man could participate in the proceedings of a body like this, and therefore such a restriction would not have excluded any man who was fit to hold a seat there. He repeated then, he hoped the gentleman from Columbia would so amend his amendment as to exclude these of. 250 ficers from holding any office under the federal class of offices from which he should be excluded or any other government. That could be done in this state. Mr. S. spoke of the necessity of by a slight alteration. Some gentlemen howev. preserving a general division of Executive, leer seemed to be exceedingly anxious to exclude gislative and general duties, but thought the Exthe Governor and Lieut. Governor from the ad. ecutive should not be altogether separated from ministrative offices or boards of the state. Now the administrative. He pointed to the Erie canal as soon as they did that, they would defeat the as one fruit of the labor of DeWitt Clinton. apart end those gentlemen had in view. If their Gov. from his executive duty. He said what he had ernor had always been more intimately related heard recently would seem to show that they to the finances of the state, they would have were coming to see if they could not have a sort been less in debt. If he had been a commission. of constructive nobility here-a sort of nominal er of the canal fund, like every other man who Governor, who was to stand, disconnected with had been put into that commission.he would have the business and interests of the state, with his stood for the interest of the whole state against arms folded, looking on like a sentinel. There the interest of localities. If the Governor had was so much outcry against centralism, that he been more intimately connected with the finances did not see that there was any thing to be left he would, as the Comptroller had uniformly for the Governor to do; though he had sup. done, have stood against the claims of localities. posed that the people when they elected a Govand solicitations from literary and charitable in- ernor, did it on account of his qualifications, atitutions. It was their misfortune, not that and that they thought they ought to have the ad. their Governor had been too intimately connect. vantage of them. He wanted to have the Goved with the finances of the state, but that he had ernor's influence and skill brought to bear on the not been sufficiently connected with them. If administrative departments, and great utility the gentleman from Columbia would amend his would be found to follow, for the Governor amendment so as to provide a general disquali. would become acquainted with all these mat. fication, he should be glad. They could then ters The connection of the Governor with make the clause in relation to the state just these things would give a moral weight and pow. what they pleased. He would submit to the Con- er, for there was something besides the mere vention the propriety of making the Lieut. Gov. coercion of law and force necessary to have a ernor or even the Governor himself a commis. government go on well. He regretted to see sioner of the canal fund, and otherwise connect here the members of this Convention set the exhim with the state finances, the distribution of ample, by way of approving of the exclusion of its charities, and its donations to colleges and public men, giving countenance to the idea that academies. He would much rather that the Governors and supreme court judges, and other Governor, from his station, was compelled to men high in office, should not be patterns of look after the public funds, and guard against learning. It reminded him of a speech said to improper gifts and charities and donations, than have been made recently in Congress, in which that he should stand with folded arms, casually a gentleman said he hoped the House would not looking over the ground, without knowing how hold him responsible for being born in Vermont; many evils had grown out of their administra. and that he was opposed to receiving the Smithtion. He would make that part of his duty as sonian bequest, for he knew how much it cost Governor, to participate in the administrative him to get rid of the little education he had be. boards of the state, fore he could be purely democratic. Mr. S. Mr. JORDAN said if he understood the gen. hoped they had no such men here. tleman from Herkimer, that gentleman desired Mr. RUGGLES understood the amendment that neither the Governor nor the Lieut. Gover. disqualified the Governor of this state from tanor should hold any office of honor, profit, or king command of the U. S. troops in time of trust under the general government. war. Now he could not but think the commit. Mr. HOFFMAN:-Under any government. tee would act unadvisedly and unwisely in a. Mr. JORDAN had no objection to that, and dopting a provision which was to have that ef. it could be easily provided for by introducing two feet. It was founded in a jealousy of the Ex. or three words. In respect to the amendment ecutive, who was chosen by the people for a proposed by another delegate, he could not as. short period, which he thought was without sent to it. He would let his amendment stand foundation. Before they adopted such a provi. as it was, alter making it conform to the views sion, it might be well to look back to the transof the gentleman from Herkimer. Mr. J. then actions which took place in the late war with sent up his amendment so altered as to permit Great Britain-and to bear in mind that we the Lieutenant Governor ex officio to be a com. might have another war hereafter. We have a missioner of the land office, a commissioner of long frontier on the north, and we find the Britke canal fundl, and a member of the canal board. tish government fortifying it from end to end.Mr. WARD thought there should be some al. Ever act of that power indicates an expecta. teration in relation to the military command of tion that an occurrence of that kind will take the Governor, place at some time hereafter, and we therefore Mr. SIMMONS thought he could see there ought to act in reference to the possibility of had got to be a little more reflection on this sec. such an event. Nay we ought hot to forget that tion, although he was inclined to agree with the it was not only a possible event, but one that gentleman from Herkimer. But it was evident might be regarded as certain, at some future pe. they must distinguish between two things; they riod. How then should we be situated in case must render the Governor incapable of holding of a war of that kind? He always supposed it any office whatever under any other state or the would be necessary at the commencement of a Uaited 8 ttes and then there were a certain war, for this stat to takecare of itself. This is 251 a border state, and it might be compelled to take only objection which had been urged against the care ofitself. When the former war occurred,the prohibition of his rceiving an appointment from United States was weak on the frontier; and the United States. the state was driven to self protection, though Mr. WARD said the constitution of the Unishe also at that time was unprepared If such ted States had made a provision in relation to an event should ever occur again, whatever the militia; it provides that the Congress of the might be our condition in preparation and re- United States shall have the power to organize sources, a unity of action between this state the militia; also that the Congress of the Uliand the United States government would be high. ted States shall have the power to pass laws to ly important; and nothing ought to take placein call them forth into the service of the United this convention which should lead to separate States, reserving to the states the appointment and discordant action. He was not prepared to of the officers. The clause of the constitution state precisely the causes which during the last to which he referred, was in these words:war induced the U. S. government to confer the,, That Congress shall have power to provide for calcommand of its troops upon the Governor of ling for the militia to execute the laws of the Union, this state. He had expected that other gentle- suppress insurrection, and repel invasion. To provide men in the Convention better acquainted with for organizing, arming and disciplining the militia, and the military relations then existing between us for governin such prt of thein as may he employed in the service ofthe United States, reserving to the.,tates and the United States. would have opposed the respectively the appointment of the office.s, ad the ouadoption of the provision now before the com- thorit of troitttig the nilitia accord.ng to the discimittee. He recollected however, that there pline prescribed by Congress." were controversies between the militia and the Now, said Mr. W., the constitution of the army officers. It was found expedient on the United States is the paramount law of the land, part of the United States to invest the Govern- and consequently as the Executive of this state, or with a Major General's command, and he by our constitution is made the commander-in. ventured to say that no act of the United chief of the militia, he is as such, whenever States government was more heartily approved called into the service of the United States, an in the whole course of the war, than that act.- officer in the service of the United States; and if The defence of the city of New-York on the the troops of the U. States shall be called to act south was immediately strengthened. Mea3ures with the militia, he as such commander-in-chief were taken to give security to the northern fron. of the militia of this stale will have the com'tier, and public confidence was immediately re- mand of all such officers as are inferior to him stored in the capacity of the state for self:de. in rank, whether they belong to the army of the fence. In the event of another war with Eng- United States or to the militia of the state from land, the militia force to be immediately raised whence he comes. would be very large, not only for, the city of During the war of 1812, at a period when our New-York, but for the long line of the Canada liberties were threatened by a powerful armafrontier-and for the purpose of securing the ment of the enemy on the seaboard, and by a -united and concerted action of the state and Uni- large and a well appointed army on the northern ted States' forces, it will be indispensably neces. and western borders of this state, and when the sary to put both under one command. Now, he people had lost confidence in the capacity of the asked where is the danger of giving this corn- senior officers of our regular forces-Generals manJ, as was done during the last war, to our Wilkinson and Hampton,the whole of the militia own Governor? Is the power and influence of in the southern section of the state were ordered the United States government less to be feared to rendezvous on Long Island to protect the city when our chief magistrate shall have the con- and harbor of New York; and other parts of mand of its troops, than when that government the militia, from the northern and western seccommands ours? It seemed to him that there tions, were ordered on the frontiers for their were mistalien views and unfounded jealousies protection. At this time Governor Tompkins, on this stbject:-that the adoption of this dis- who had the entire confidence of the people, not qualification might weaken the power of the state only of this state but of the Union, assumed the in an emergency when its strength would be command in person. And with a view of remost needed. He did not rise in the confident lieving his mind from any embarrassment in expectation of changing the opinions which the taking the command of the regular army within committee seemed at present to entertain, but the borders of the state, he was appointed a he hoped the provision would not be adopted Major-General in the army of the United States. now in committee. If it should, he still hoped Mr. W. would not say that it was necessary that that the members of the Convention might be lie should have received a commission in order satisfied of its impropriety on more mature re- to have exercised such command, but he could flection, before they came to pass upon it in the see no objection to it. This is the only time that House. the Governor of this state ever received such an Mr. W. TAYLOR was of opinion that a Gcv. appointment from the government of the United ernor exercising the command over the army of States, and perhaps it may never occur again, the United States which might be placed under But no one, no not even the wisest among us, can his command by request of the general govern. predict as to the certainty 'of our remaining al. ment, would be only exercising his lunctions as ways at peace. Governor cf the state of New York. It would It is the policy of this government, however, be no new commission-no new appointment, to always to remain at peace with all nations; we ask the Governor of this state to command, to. have no desire to go to war for conquest, and he gether with the militia, such troops as might be trusted we never shoulu. But we have powerful placed under his control. And yet that wus the and rival nations, both on ournorthern andsouth. 252 ern borders; and as we are now involved in a Mr. SWACKHAMER was not to be fright. war with Mexico, in defence of our national ened from his course by such argument. He honor, so we may be involved in another war, would make our education as wide-spread and at some distant period, with some more power- universal as possible-but he left to the gentleful nafion, and therefore ought not, by our acts man from Essex his exclusive love for the examhere, to embarrass the Executive of this state in ples of James I, Queen Victoria. and for Pesuch an event, in the discharge of his military ters' Reports. duties. Mr. STETSON could see force in the point The amendment proposed by the honorable maintained by the gentlemen from Orange and gentleman from Columbia (Mr. JORDAN,) he ap. Dutchess (Mr. BROWN and Mr. RUGGLES.) He prehended would prevent the Executive from could see propriety in allowing the Governor to taking the command of the militia in this state, take command from the United States. As in in time of war, whether ordered out by the gov. case of an insurrection or outbreak in another ernment of the U. S. or otherwise. He would state, where the Governor might be called to go therefore vote to strike out the amendment un- with the militia, it would perhaps be proper to der consideration, and if that motion prevails, allow him to take command of an additional would give his support to the amendment of the number of United States troops. He went gentleman from Columbia, provided it was mod- heartily with Mr. JORDAN and Mr. HOFFified in the way he proposed; if not, he would MAN. who would separate the state officers envote against any proposition to amend the con- tirely from any connection with the United stitution in this particular. It was questionable States Government, and fiee our authorities whether under either of the proposed amend. from the influence o. the Federal Government. ments, the Lieut. Governor could sit as the pre- Mr. SIMMONS inquired if he would not al. siding officer of the Senate, or whether he could low the Federal Government to use onr prisons act as a commissioner of the land office, or of to confine its criminals, and the many subordithe canal fund, or be a member of the canal nate agencies she was using in the state? board. He expressed the opinion that it was Mr. STETSON said that question was not not contemplated by this Convention to deprive now in order. He would meet it when it arose the Lieut. Governor of the privilege of holding legitimately. These agencies were merely min. those places. Mr. W. said it was attended with isterial and judicial, as in the case of the diffi. much difficulty to draw an amendment as per. culties along our borders during the late Cana. feet as it ought to be while acting in the commit. dian rebellion, in which Judge Conklin had tee of the whole-but it was proper to remark, made a decision, which surrendered a point held that if any errors were committed in this way, by him and others previously, in regard to fede. they should have an opportunity of correcting eral authority. them in the House. And again he would remind Mr. SIMMONS briefly replied as to the ac. gentlemen that a committee would be raised after tion of the United States Supreme Court which they shall have passed through the several a. sustained his position. mendments to the constitution to arrange them as Mr. TALLMADGE explained briefly the disthey should be, and then all inaccuracies can be tinction he took between the case of a state offi. corrected, giving all the members of the Con. cer employed by the United States in a civil cavention an opportunity on the coming in of that pacity, and his employment in a military capa. report, to endeavor to make it more perfect. city. The Governor should not take any apMr. TALLMADGE said it was very desira. pointment, as such, as a source of emolument ble that they should settle the principle involved, or power from the general government But in and then they could reach the details. Two the subordinate position in which we stood to great questions were here presented: first, shall the United States, and in view of their right to the Executive of this state be permitted to hold call on us for military aid in a great national office under the government of the United States controversy, there wa, nothing inconsistent in or any other; and second, whether he should his performing the duty required of him-he all hold any other office of honor or profit in this the while continuing commander in chief of the state. These two questions he thought it was militia of the state, not under the United States, important to consider separately. Mr. T. then but the state government. reviewed them in their order. In respect to the Mr. RUGGLES did not understand that the first, he thought it was better that the Governor Governor had any authority, except under a should not be employed by the United States commission from the Urited States to control the government. In coming to this conclusion he action of United States troops. They might be examined with some minuteness the circumstan- put under the command of a superior officer of ces attending the case of Governor Tompkins, the state government-but that the United States which had been here alluded to. government was not willing to do during the last Mr. KEMBLE said the question was whether war, and probably never would-unless such the course taken by Governor Tompkins was officer was commissioned by them. When they necessary, and if so whether such a necessity were under the command of our Governor, we might not again occur. He hoped, therefore, knew that they were under the command of a that nothing would be done to prevent the Gov- friend, whose devotion to the public interests ernor from performing such a duty hereafter. the people had shown their confidence in; and Mr. SWACKHAMER did not know that ed. it seemed passing strange to him that we should ucation was incompatible with democracy He be desirous or willing to bind ourselves that the believed democracy was as enlightened and r-. forces of the state should not be under the corm fined as much as education or any other science. mand of a state officer. Mr. SIMMONS. It requires much more. Mr. NICHOLAS would modify this section so 253 that the restriction would not apply to this state. A Governor may have served for years as a trustee of literary and benevolent institutions: there was no good reason for compelling the Governor, when elected to this office, to relinquish such trusts, in which by his example, he might still exert an influence beneficial to the community, and such a restriction in his (Mr. N.'s) opinion would be unnecessarily infringing on a man's personal privileges. He would not permit a Governor to receive any of. fice from any other government, as the rights and interests of the state should not be liable to be blended with those of other governments.The exigency might occur referred to by the gentleman from Dutchess (Mr. RUGGLES); in the event of a war, it would become necessary to send U. S. troops here for the defence of our frontier. Should it then become necessary for the Governor to take charge temporarily of such troops, he might do it by virtue of his office as Governor; he would need no military commission from the United States Government. He would exercise a general direction of the military movements within the state as Governor of the state. Mr. BASCOM went for striking out the sec. tion. History was instructive on this subjectand the signs of the times indicated any thing but that peaceful state of things that some anticipate]. We had war enough on our hands already. And it was idle to suppose that the world was to look calmly on what was going forward on this continent. We were in a state of war now-not constitutionally declared, but a state of war nevertheless-and that state of things he feared was sustained by the public sentiment. He hoped we should place no restrictions on ourselves, so that the state could not avail itself of the servees of our own Governor, as in 1812, if like circumstances should render it necessary and proper. Mr. WATERBURY sustained the section.He thought it far better that the Governor should attend to his civil duties,of which he had enough to attend to without taking the field. It would have been quite as well for the state during the last war had our Governor not been at the head of a military force. But now, when we were near three million of people, the idea that the Governor was to mount the first horse and ride offl was preposterous. We had men drilled at West Point on purpose to drill men for war. He had no idea of fixing ourselves to run right into a war, and neglect our home policy. Our Governor was now loaded down enough with civil duties, without being sujected to military ser. vice. The question was here taken and the 9th section struck out. Mr. JORDAN then offered his substitute for the section as follows:Neither the Governor nor Lieutenant-Governor shall hold any office under the Government of the United States, or any foreign Government; or any office of proit or emolument (o her than that of Governor or Lieutenat-Governor) under this state. The acceptance of any such office shall vacate his said office of Governor or lieuteuant-Governor. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to add, "honor, trust, or emolument." Mr. MANN hoped not. Mr. RICHMOND hoped the words would be added. He had no idea of having the Governor a trustee in institutions that were in the habit of coming here for donations of $30,000 and $15,000. Being a part of the law making power, he would have the Governor free front all influences which such a connection might have upon him. It was not that he was opposed to education in any sense, or in any of its grades, that he took this ground, forhe was in favor of edu. cation in all its breadth. But he did not believe that it depended on being backed up by the official influence of every dignitary. But these edu. cational funds belonged to the whole people,and should not be frittered away and given to sec. tions. Mr. PATTERSON suggested that the amendment would exclude the Lieut. Governor from acting as member of the canal board, and as one of the Commissioners of the land office.This would render necessary the creation of a new batch of officers. Now, Mr. P. was opposed to these officials holding office under any other government than this state; but the latter seemed necessary and proper. As to the objections of the gentleman from Genesee (Mr. RicHMOND), to the Governor being trustee in benevolent and charitable institutions, they w re groundless. He hoped, at all events. no gentleman would rise there and protest against twe appropriations made to these institutions. Act upon such principles, and your institutions for the deaf and dumb, the blind, and the insane, must go by the board. These appropriations had been all right-every one of them. Nor was there any danger of the legislature appro priating too much money for education, or suf. ferina humanity. It never had been so-it never would be. Mr. HOFFMAN agreed that it was exceedingly desirable to keep these high Executive of. ficers from being officers in private charities and corporations, that were likely to come here and beg for favors. And if gentlemen would shape their amendments so as to go directly to their end, he would cheerfully give them his vote.But such was not the course taken. If these were public charities, it it were right to have them, to endow and govern them by t 'e state, then no better person could be selected to act as a governor of them than the Executive-that he might know what good they were doing, and what it cost; and might communicate these results to the legislature. But in relation to colleges and academies, and private charities, under private and local government, the rule was directly the reverse. He should not be a parti. cipator in their local government, to come here and recommend persons to them. But the amendment did not reach this end. He had no difference with the gentleman from Essex, in seeking that the Governor's duties should be exclusively executive for this state. He desired to avoid all entangling alliances, and the expenses that grow out of them. In any limitations we fixed on the right of the Governor to serve us, he advised the utmost caution. Perhaps, instead of saying that he should not hold such of fices, it would be better to get rid of the effort by declaring that whilst he acts ex officio, he should not have special compensation for it. Ir 254 hts opinion, we should be compelled in the end to make the Governor, the governor of the state prisons, to confer on him the appointing power there, and hold him responsible for every thing done or omitted there. He hoped we should not,put the constitution in such form that we could not reach that result. If we did, we should only be obliged to elect another, and pay another salary. In any limitations upon the Gcvernor, we could not be too cautious in sep. arating him from foreign powers, and prohibit. ing his connection with local charities which came here for favors-so that the most ample use could be made of him to avoid the multiplication of officers, and save expense, where you must have administrative officers. Mr. MURPHY concurred in the main with the gentlerman from Herkimer. and had prepared an amendment, which he proposed to offer in lieu of that offered by his colleague. Mr. SWACKHAMER withdrew his. Mr. MURPHY then offered the following:"9 Nor shall they be appointed by virtue of their office or otherwise, to any place in any corporation or in any institution of a local or private character " Mr. MURPHY said there were two kinds of offices which the Governor had been called to fill-either places at public boards, or in private charities or corporations. The former came properly within his duties. But when the Gov. ernor'was put in any of the latter-such as the Sailor's Snug Harbor, or some college or private institution, and not in all, he became in some,measure a special officer of these institutions, and might exert a negative influence in favor of some, and to the disadvantage of others. He was not opposed to appropriations to these institutions, if the legislature thought proper to make them. But he did say that he should not have an influence in favor of one locality against.another. His proposition would perfect the amendment; and we could then have a vote on this principle of restrictions. Mr. RHOADES instead of having the Governor excluded from any, would have him trustee in every college in the state. Education was a substantial part of the Interest of the state, and he should be acquainted with every institution in the state, and have an interest in them all.Carrying out the idea of the gentleman from Genesee, the more ignorant the Governor was of these institutions the better would he be prepared to pass upon bills passed for their benefit-and in communicating with the legislature the condi. tion of the state, as he was bound to do. These colleges and public charities were part of the state, and if he was to be kep' ignorant of them and their affairs, we might as well not require him to communicate the condition of the state. Mr. RICHMOND replied that the gentleman's argument assumed that the Governor could know nothing of these institutions unless he was a trustee. This implied that they were secret institutions of which the public could know nothing; and would require the Governor to be trustee of every school district. Put the gentleman did not seem to think about common schools.The colleges and academies must have special care taken of them! This idea was behind the age. The order of the day was to educate the masses. Colleges would take care of them selves. He had known their agents here all winter in search of appropriations. Trustees of school districts never did. Mr. RHOADES said the gentleman did him injustice,in supposing that he characterized these institutions as secret institutions, or that he sup. posed the Executive should be a trustee ex-officio of every school district. But Mr. R. would have the Governor take care of the interests of common schools, and their prosperous condition now is owing to the exertions of Governors in their behalf. Gbv.Clinton did more for them than had been done by all his predecessors before.They were the foundations of all education.Those he would protect first. But whilst he did that, he would not break down colleges and academies. Mr. RICHMOND was aware that common schools had received attention from the Execu. tives. But they had not received their share of the funds belonging to the whole people. The common school scholar receives 45 cents a head, these in academies $4,50. The amendment of Mr. MURPHY was car. ried, 47 to 42. Mr. W. TAYLOR moved to add after the word " state," the words " except such as are otherwise provided for in the constitution." — Agreed to. Mr. RUGGLES offered the following further amendment. Nothing in this section contained, shall prevent the Governor from taking command of the troops of the United states in time of war, or in case of invasion or insurrection, under a commission from the United States or otherwise. Mr. SIMMONS proposed to add " or from ex. ecuting any other duty required of him by the President of the United States." He insisted that the adoption of this was the exclusion of the other principle-that the state laws might be made use of to execute the laws of the United States. Our judiciary was employed every day in naturalization,and in arresting fugitive slaves. Mr. W. TAYLOR inquired whether our officers acted in these cases as state or national officers? Mr. SIMMONS replied that they acted under a commission from the U. S. He would not say even by implication, that the Governor should not give the notice required of him in case of the death of the Vice President, nor do in a thousand cases that which must be done by the Executive as a commissioner of the U. S. gov. ernment. Mr. MORRIS remarked that if the Governor was so essential to the general government, it was very easy for him to resign his place of Governor after receiving his commission and being called out of the state Ifwe should say that he should not leave the state in the dis. charge of such duty, then the matter would be somewhat relieved of difficulty. Otherwise, we should provide for vacating his office, and having a Governor at home. Mr. FORSYTH thought the gentleman overlooked a very important consideration-that the Governor by resignine, vacated his office ot commander-in.chief. It might well happen that the purposes of the general government could not be so well served in any way as by combi 255 ning the two offices-a combination which would be defeated if the Governor resigned by taking a commission under the U. S. government. Mr. DANA, to show that the position was not sinzular tnat the Governor should not hold other offices under other governments, quoted provisions to that effect from several state constitutions-Tennessee, Ohio, Indiana, Louisiana, Alabama, Michigan and Arkansas. The amendment of Mr. RUGGLES was then adopted-48 in the affirmative. Mr. DANFORTH moved to reconsider the vote adopting Mr. MURPHY'S amendment -but not having voted with the majority, Mr. E. SPENCER moved it-and the motion was lost, 33 to 49. M,'. CROOKER here offered a substitute for the entire section as amended, saying that it embraced every thing in the section now, but in a more compact shape, as follows:Neither the Governor or Lieutenant-Governor shall hold any office under any o her government, except a military comrmand und -r tle United States in time of war, or in case of invtsion or insurrection; nor any office or place in any corporation or institution of a loeal or private character. and the acceptance by either of any office hereby prohilited to thm, shall vacate the office of Governor or Lieut. Governor, so held by him. Mr. JORDAN assented to this, as better in point of phraseology, and it was adopted. The section as amended was then carried, 52 to 29. Section 10 was then read for amendment, as follows:4 10. The governor may in his discretion deliver over to justice any person found in the state, who shall be charged with having committed, without the jurisdic ion of the United i-tltes, any crime except treason, which by the laws of this state, if committed therein, is punishable by death, or by imprisonment in the state prison. -Ruch delivery can only be m de on the requisition of the duly atlllorized minister or officers of the government within the jurisdiction of which the crime shall be charged to have been committed; and upon such evidence of the guilt of the person so charged as would be necessary to justify his apprehen'ion and commitment for trial, had the crime charged been committed in this state Mr. WARD did not know whether it was the intentention of the Chairman of the committee No. Five, to press this section further. Mr. W. doubted whether there was a similar provision in any of the state constitutions. His own opi. nion was that it was repugnant to the constitution of the United States, which gave the power to the President and Senate, which it was here proposed to confer on the Governor of this state. Article 2nd of the Constitution of the United States, section 2, reads thus: {( The President shall have power, by and with the advice and cons-nt of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two-thirds of the Senators present concur, and he sh;ll nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United ttates, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, alId which shall be established by law. Hut the Congress may, ly law, vest the appointment of such inferior officers as they think proper in the President alone. in the courts ot law, or il the heads of departments." Under the first branch of this section, the President was clothed with the power which it was now proposed by the section under consideration to give the Executive of this State. It seemed to him, if this section should be adopted as a part of the constitution of this state, it would be repugnant to, if not an infringement of the constitution of the United states. But it was proper to remark, that this question did not rest alone in the section of the constitution of the United States already referred to. It would be seen by reference to the 1st article and 10th sec. tion of the constitution of the United States, that the states were restrained from the exercise of certain powers therein named, among them the very power proposed to be conferred upon the Governor of this state. This section read as follows: i' No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports except wfvat may be absolutely necessary for executii g its inspection laws; and the neit produce of all duties and imposts laid by any other state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United mates; and all such laws shall be subject to the revi. sion and control of the Congress. No state shall, uwithout the consent of Congress, levy any duty on tonage, keep troops or ships of war in lime of peace, enter into any agreenmeit or compact with another state, or with a freign p)wer, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or,n such imminent danger as will not admit of delay." The latter part of this section applied particularly to the case under consideration-that is to say that no state shall, without the consent of Congress, enter into any agreement or compact with any other state or foreign power. The section under consideration provided that the Governor might in his discretion deliver over tojustice,offenders against the laws of foreign governments,upon a requisition from such government. This was certainly an extraordinary power and one which ought not, for the reasons above stated, to be conferred upon the Executive of this state by the constitution. It was the first time that it! had been attempted. No such power was to be' found in the constitution of 1777. Nor in the, several amendments to the state constitution --- nor in the constitution of 1821. Nor was thereany such power conferred upon the Executiveof either of the other states in this Union. It could not be urged that the Governor might ex — ercise this power in cases where no treaty cxisted between the government of the United States and any foreign power-for no compact~ or agreement of any sort could be entered into between this state and a foreign government for the delivery up of fugitives from justice or otherwise. The gentleman from Oneida, (Mr. KraIBLAND) drew the attention of the committee to, this subject some days since, and he was entitled to thanks for it That gentleman alluded to the case of Holmes against the Governor of Vermont, which came before the supreme court of the United States, on a writ of habeas corpusthe Governor of Vermont having assumed to have Holmes arrested and imprisoned, for delivery over to the authorities ol Canada, for trial for an offence committed in that province. The dicision in that case was that this power of ar. resting and delivering over fugitives from the laws of foreign governments, belonged to the President and to him alone. That decision, it appeared to him controlled this question, and was conclusive against the constitutionality ol this provision. Mr. MORRIS agreed that this was a new fea 256 ture in state constitutions; but it was not new to Mr. SIMMONS did not suppose that any genour laws. It was copied from the Revised tleman was going to vote for the section as it Statutes, and was not invented by committee stood-but il it were altered so as to require the number five, as seemed to be supposed. Now, Governor to deliver over criminals to the Presi. the committec supposed if the Governor could dent of the U. S., on his requisition, it would have this power conferred upon him, it should I be a very proper provision. He would allow be done by constitutional enactment and not by our state government to be a little auxiliary to statute-and they inserted it here to test the the national government, instead of an alien and judgment of the Convention on the subject. It an enemy. was too high a power to be dependent upon The section was struck out-a single negative statute law, and if proper and constitutional, only being heard-Mr. RUSSELL. should be part of the fundamental law. The The 11th section was then read as follows: principle on which it was based had been repconispd by the General Governme nt and by lI. Every provision in the constitution and laws in cognised by the General Government, and by relation to the powe s and duties of the governor, and England and France in special treaties with this in relation to acts and duties to be performed by other government. But there were governments of officers or persons towards him, shall be construed to Europe with whom we had no such treaties, and extend to the person administering for the time being the question presented here was precisely this: the government of the state. whether in cases where no such treaties existed, Mr. CROOKER moved to strike out the sec. this state had not the power, not for the purpose tion, saying that by a slight nodification of the of aiding in the enforcement of the laws of 6th section, the necessity for it would be entirely othercountries, but to protect ourselves from obviated. the contamination of criminals fleeing from After some conversation-the section was other countries, and taking refuge among us. struck out. He and the committee were indifferent as to Section 12, was then read as follows: whether it was retained or not; and only pre.- 12. The governor may, upon the application of the sented it that attention might be called to it, and sheriff of any county in the state, order such a military the question whether it was or was not in con- force from any other county or counties of the state, as flict with the constitution of the United States, ~ may be necessary to enable such sheriff to execute pro. put at rest. cess delivered to him. Mr. KIRKLAND regarded this question as Mr. CROOKER moved that the committee definitely settled by the highest judicial ttibu. rise and report progress. Lost. nal of the land in the case alluded to, ot Holmes Mr. MANN moved to strike out the section. against the Governor of Vermont. That deci- Mr. MORRIS explained that the section was sion went to this entire length, that the delivery introduced to enable the Governor to call out a up of persons charged with crime, on the requi- military force in aid of the sheriff, without wait. sitions of foreign governments, was a matter of ing for the preliminary steps now required, by a treaty arrangement between the United States resort to the power of the county. government and such foreign nations-and that, Mr. CROOKER opposed the section, and it as no state could enter into such compact or was struck out. treaty, as the power belonged solely to the Pres. The 13th section was now read, as follows: ident, and could only be exercised by him undery r f o reciprocal treaties. Such treaties had been made at any time within the period for which such sheriff with England, France, and other European was elected. He shall first give to such sherff a copy countries, and there could ble no doubt that the of the charges against him, and an opportunity of being power was wisely vested exclusively in the gen. heard in his defence, before any removal shall be made. eral government Mr. STETSON remarked that one of the reMr. TALLMADGE concurred in the propri. ports made this morning, covered this whole ety of striking out the section-though he was ground. understood to take the ground that it was com- Mr. JONES moved to strike it out. petent for the states to make regulations in aid Mr. MORRIS urged that the sheriff, being an of the general government in carrying out its executive officer, it was eminently proper that constitutional powers. In the case alluded to' lte chief executive officer should have this powhowever, the Governor of Vermont went fur er. ther and undertook to deliver up the prisoner, Mr. WATERBURY opposed the motion to without the intervention of the United States strike out, and authorities. The motion to strike out was lost. Mr. WORDEN remarked that government in The committee then rose and reported prosurrendering up criminals, always acted on the gress. principle of reciprocity-and were it perfectly A communication was received from WIL. competent for us to confer such a power on our LIAM C. BOUCK, president of the N. Y. State Executive, it was easy to see that its exercise Temperance Convention,[nowin session,] trans. might conflict seriously with the policy of the mitting a resolution of invitation to the State general government, towards foreign nations, Convention to attend the annual meetino of tha* and would be entirely inexpedient. But he con- body-which, on motion of Mr. TALLMADGE curred with others, that such a provision as this was accepted. would be directly in conflict with the federal Adjourned to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. constitution. 257 THURSDAY, JULY 16. Prayer by Rev. Mr. KNAPP. AFTERNOON SESSION. Mr. BROWN offered the following resolu. tion: — Resolved, That on and after Monday next, this Con. vention will hold two sessions each day, the morning session to commence at 9 o'clock, A. M., and the afternoon session at 31 o'clock. Mr. CROOKER suggested that the afternoon session should begin at 4 o'clock. Mr. BROWN accepted the suggestion and amended his resolution accordingly. The resolution was debated by Messrs. JONES CROOKE R, PATTERSON, BiOWN, and CHATFIELD. A motion to postpone the consideration of the resolution for one week was then negatived. The resolution was then adopted, fixing 9 A. M. and 4 P M. as the hour of meeting. DEBT AND TAXATION, M-r, ';. W':-E~Yoffered the following, which was agreed to. Resolved, That 'he Comptroller he requested to re' port to the Convention, the respective sums borrowed and loans made by virtue of section number four, and subdivisions nrum ered one, two, three, four, five and "ix of sect'on number five of the act 'to provi:e for raying the debi and preseiving the credit of the state," pgasse: Ml rch 29ih, t142, and to what purposes the several snins thus loaned have res ectively been applied Also, the several sums invested in certain specific fun us of the state, authorized by sections nunmbered right, nine and ten re-pectively, and the amount paid 'nto the treasury as avails of the direct tax authorized hy section niumber one of said act And to what purpose or purposes such funds have been applied. ORDER OF BUSINESS. Mr. LOOMIS, from the select committee on 'hat subject, submitted a report recommending the order in which the reports of committees shall be taken up-which was laid on the table to be priited as follows:1. Executive Department. 2. Election, &c. of the Legislature. 3. Incorporations, other than banking and municipal. 4. Currency and banking. 6. Canals, internal improvements, public debt, &c. 6 The judiciary. 7 Powers and duties of the legislature. 8 Appointment or election of local officers. 9. Elect ion or appointment of officers whose powers are not local. 10. Powers of counties, towns, &c., except cities and incorpor ted villages. 11. Organization and powers of cities, &c. 12. The elective franchise. 13. Education, common schools, &u. 14. Cr ation and division of estates in land. 16. Official oaths and affirmations. 16. The militia and military affairs. 17 Rights and privileges of citizens. 18. Future amendments. Mr. CHATFIELD said there were two or ihree subjects, which, in his judgment, were subjets of primary importance in the forma. tion of a constitution, which were here post. poned nearly to the end of the series-he alluded particularly to the elective franchise and the qualifications of electors. He should desire to amend in that respect. Mr. KIRKLAND to give time to consider the 17 resolution, moved that it be laid on the table and printed, which was agreed to. EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention went into committee of the whole on the report of the fifth standing committee, Mr CHATFIELD in the chair. The 13th section being under consideration Mr. CROOKER moved to amend by adding "for malfeazance in office" after the words which gave the Governor power to remove sheriffs from office. And on the suggestion of Mr. STOW he added also " or nonfeazance." The amendment was lost. The Secretary then read the 14th section, as follows: ~ 14. Every bill which shall have passed the senate and assembly shall, before it becomes a law, be pre. sented to the Governor. If he approve he shall sign it; but if not, he shall return it with his objections to that house in which it shall have originated; who shall enter his objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. It, after such reconsideration, two thirds of the members present shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together withl the objections, to the other house, by which it shall likewise be recon. sidered; and if approved by two-thirds of the members present it shall become a law. If not approved by twothirds of the members present, and ift at the next ensuing session of the legislature, the same bill shall be again passed by the vote of the majority of all the me rbers elected in each branch of the legislature, such bill shall become a law notwithstanding the ob. jections of the Governor And upon the final passage of every bill the votes of both houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the members voting for and against the bill shall be entered,n the journal of each house respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the governor within ten days (sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the legislature shall by their adjournment prevent its return; in which case it shall not be a law, unless the Governor shall approve the same within ten days alter the adjournment The omission of the Govern r in such case to approve of a bill within ten days alter the adjournment, shall have the same effect as if such bill had been returned to the legislature with his objections. Mr. NICOLL moved to amend by adding in the first line, after the words " every bill," the words " order or resolution, except a resolution for adjournment." The CHAIRMAN was understood to saytha the Governor did not sign all joint resolutions. Mr. NICOLL explained the reasons which influenced him in offering this amendment. He said it was a well known fact that appropriations of money, books and other property had been voted away by legislative bodies to a great extent, and he wished to place some check upon that mode of legislation. Mr. JONES said, where concurrent resolutions had the effect and force of law, it was proper that they should have the Governor's signature; but there were resolutions of a different character which did not require such an approval. For instance, there were resolutions occasionally passed, instructing their senators in Congress by the constituent body, with which tke Governor had nothing to do. Mr. NICOLL, to obviate the objections raised would add after the word "resolution," the words " having the force of law." A conversation ensued. in which Messrs.PAT 258 TERSON, WORDEN, JONES, BROWN and HOFFMAN took part. Mr. WORDEN suggested that the amendment should be so framed as to provide that no money should be appropriated but by authority of law. Mr. BROWN intimated that he was of opinion that Committee No. Five had trenched on legislative power. He thought the amendments should be applied elsewhere. Mr. HOFFMAN said perhaps a few words would set this matter clearly before the commit tee. This matter arose under the different governments, in whose legislative bodies there was ordinarily some rule requiring that a bill shall not be passed or originated in some of the last days of a session. The technical term used was "bill," and it sometimes happened in some of those last, days when a bill cannot be originated for the purpose of making some appropriationinstead of asking the unanimous consent to do so-that a resolution was introduced for that purpose. It had always been supposed, and probably with some correctness, that such a joint resolution, signed by the Executive, had the effect of law. It was in this way that the two houses had been able. notwithstanding the rule against bringing in bills during the last days of a session, to make particular appropriations. Now he submitted to the committee, that whenever a joint resolution would have the ef. fect of law to dispose of public property, it should be submitted to the Executive precisely like a bill; and such a resolution ought to be included within the rule. He remembered a few years ago that the Comptroller advertised a railroad for sale, because the company did not pay its two per cent to the sinking fund. Its agents came on here and asked the legislature to grant them relief, but the law required a two-third vote, ani hence it was vain to attempt it in that way; but a joint resolution was carried, and the railroad was not sold. By a resolution, in fact, an act of the legislature was suspended; and to him it was clear that such a way of whipping round the constitution and law was very improper. If a resolution could be passed by the two houses without sending it to the Executive, and thus if an act of the legislature could be suspended, this was not a government of law. He therefore advocated the insertion of some provision in the constitution to correct the existing evnl. Mr. MORRIS said the difficulty which his colleague intended toobviate,and which had been so strongly presented by the gentleman from Herkimer, was one which should certainly be provided for; but he asked those gentlemen to reflect on one effect which would be produced by the amendment of his colleague. The gentleman from Herkimer had shown them that a provision requiring a two-third vote,for instance, to create a corporation, a legislature might evade and create by resolution. The learned gentle. man from Herkimer would not pretend that that could be done; and yet the argument might be used if they put this amendment into the clause in the veto power, it would be construed as giv. ing power to create a corporation by resolution. Now Mr. M. contended that no law could be created except by bill. In every instance of the action of the legislature, theyspoke of abill; and wherever their act was to have the force of law, it was by bill. and nll bills must be submitted to the Governor for his approval, or for him to assign reasons for his disapproval. He repeated then, that if this amendment was made, it would be construed to authorize the doing that by resolution which should be done by law, and that should never be permitted. They should never permit that to be done in a careless, loose way, which required deliberation and care. He was opposed therefore to the amendment. Mr. HOFFMAN should agree with the conclusions of the gentleman from New-York, if theycould agree on their premises. If legislative bodies did not pass joint resolutions that had the aspect of laws-if they had not already done it-he might be inclined to stand with that gentleman; but the word "bill" had not prevented the legislature passing resolutions, nor did he know that they could there overthrow the system by mere arguments to show that it was improper. He hoped a remedy might be provided and perhaps the proposition of the gentleman from New-York might answer the purpose Mr. PATTERSON had no objection to the insertion of a clause to prohibit money being drawn from the treasury without the authority of law, but he was opposed to the continuation of a system which permitted that to be done by resolution. He would offer an amendment at the proper time to meet this view of the case. Mr. W. TAYLOR thought there should be such a provision as was found in the constitution of the United States, providing that no money should be drawn from the treasury except for appropriations by law; and he suggested an ad. dition to the amendment which the gentleman from Chautauque had intimated he should offer, of the words, "passed by bill in the usual manner." In such a case, the amendment of the gentleman from New-York would be unnece:sary. Mr. NICOLL'said the remedy suggested by the gentleman from Onondaga, only went half way, and woull not meet the case. Mr. TALLMADGE regretted to hear of the legislative usage of acting by concurrent resolu. tion. It was a practice that was not to be en. dured; and he hoped an amendment would be provided to prevent such gross misconduct. What! could the two houses undertake to evade the Executive disapprobation? The Executive had formerly the power to prorogue the legislature in cases of legislative corruption, and one instance of its exercise [understood to be in 1812] was based on the notoriety of corruption in passing acts of incorporation. If they would read the papers ot the day, they would find that there was cause in 1821 for sweeping away the council of revision. He thought however that the power of prorogation should be restored,and he should hereafter move a provision to affect that purpose, for it was a high, salutary power, of the abuse of which there was no danger. Mr. MURPHY thought the amendment was unnecessary. It sought to make provision in two cases: first that a resolution might be passed drawing money from the treasury which ought only to be done by a law; and secondly, that a resolution might have the effect of preventing the execution of laws properly passed. Now i' 259 had been properly asked by the gentleman trom Chautauque, what evidence had they of abuse by resolution, and he had not heard an answer. The gentleman from Herkimer had said that Congress had appropriated thousands of dollars for printing by joint resolution; but if that gentleman would examine the matter, he would find that all such resolutions received the approval of the President of the United States, and passed through all the forms of law, although not in the form of a bill. If there had been any abuse, he should go for applying a remedy; but if any officers having the execution of a law should allow them to be annulled by resolution, he would be unworthy of his place. Mr. TIL DEN stated, that a similar provision to the one under consideration, was proposed in the Convention of 1821, but it was withdrawn to be inserted somewhere else. He did not however find that it ever was again offered; it was certain that it was not in the constitution. and money had continued to be drawn from the treasury and property appropriated from the treasury by joint resolution. It would, however, be inconvenient if every joint resolution should be required to be submitted to the Executivesuch for instance as contained a mere expression of opinion, or resolutions of instruction or advisement to our representatives in Congress. He hoped therefore, if the amendment were persisted in, thatit would be made to apply only to resolutions that had the force of law. Mr. LOOMIS said there could be no doubt that it had been the practice for many years, for the legislature to pass resolutions which have the effect of law, and thus dispose of the public property. Such was his impression when this debate commenced; but he went to the library, and on taking up one volume of the journals, he found three concurrent resolutions ap. propriating books and property. He took up the next year's proceedings and there he found four such resolutions; and there was no doubt but it had been the practice of the legislature, to pass resolutions evading that part of the constitution which required the sanction of law. Mr. MURPHY enquired if the officer entrusted with the execution of them, did not deny their validity. Mr. LOOMIS replied, certainly not. Besides they were not always directed to the same officers. Mr. MURPHY called attention to some ex. pressions made by Mr. Jay on the subject in the Convention of 1821. Mr. LOOMIS continued: There had been some pretty large appropriations made in this way. He thought every one would be in favor of stopping such a system, and therefore that the only question was, whether they should put in an amendment here, or wait until they came to the powers and duties of the legislature. If they did it as here proposed, he feared it would have the effect of sanctioning legislation by resolution instead of by bill. He thought they had better make the prohibition in the subsequent article to pass a law other than in the form of law. Mr. NICHOLAS joined in requesting the gentleman from New York to withdraw his amendment. Mr. TALLMADGE stated an instance of $400 having been appropriated to buy books, from a person named Disturnell, to be distributed amongst members of the legislature. He said the practice of voting themselves gifts in this manner, was an abominable one. It was unworthy of men, unworthy of the legislative body, and unworthy of. this great state. The CHAIRMAN said it was the uniform practice. Mr. CROOKER thought the amendment could be appropriately made here. Mr. DANA thought it more properly belonged to the legislative department. The conversation was continued by Messrs. CROOKER, PATTERSON, TALLMADGE and STETSON. Mr. NICOLL then withdrew his amendment. Mr. RHOADES next submitted an amendment, as follows:Strike out all aft tr the word t it," at the end of the first sentence, and insert as follows:-" It, after such reconsiderat ion, a majority of all the members elected shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together wilh the objections, to the oth r House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by a majority of all the members elected, it shall become a law, notwithstanding the objections of the Goveinor.But in all such cases, the voles of hot h Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names voting for and against the bill be entered on the journal of each House respectively. He explained its purport to be, to give to a majority of the members of each branch of the legislature, the passage of bills when vetoed by the Governor, instead of requiring a two-third vote, as now. He disclaimed all intention to destroy the veto power, but he thought it should be restrained. It should be retained to prevent unconstitutional legislation, and legislation that was characterized by haste and improvidence, and likewise such legislation as was contrary to the public interest and sound policy. These were all the classes of legislation to which it should be applied, and a majority of representa. tives might be left to take care of the rest. He made some remarks on the exercise of this power in the general government, and its introduction into the discussions of an election campaign, and said he desired to get rid of such consequences here. Mr. W. TAYLOR differed from his colleague. The gentleman from Onondaga had said he did not wish to destroy the veto power, and yet his amendment did in effect destroy it. Legislators once having framed a law, would adhere to their vote, and if the same majority could destroy the veto of the Governor, it would be a breaking down of the constitutional barrier to improper legislation. In relation to the exercise of the veto power alluded to by his colleague, he said he believed it was exercised but some two or three times by General Jackson, and in each case it met with the approbation of the people. General Jackson's successor wisely exercised it -twice only he believed. Mr. Tyler also exer. cised it several times and on the same questions as called for its exercise by Gen. Jackson, and in those cases they all knew that the people had approved of it. Mr. Tyler also vetoed the har. bor bill, or a bill making appropriations for the improvement of rivers, on what he conceived to be constitutional grounds. In New York it ha4 260 been exercised but rarely; only on one occasion by the present Governor, and that exercise of it had met with the approbation of the people of the state, so far as they could judge by their popular meetings, their resolutions, and other ways. Strike from the constitution that power and he could assure them they would find hasty, inconsiderate, inexpedient, unconstitutional legislation frequent enough. He desired to preserve the veto power especially to check inexpeJient legislation, for men would scarcely ever pass measures that were palpably unconstitutional. He would nevertheless prefer leaving the veto power as it stands in the present constitution, which was adopted in 1821. If the Governor vetoed a bill on the ground of inexpediency or unconstitutionality, it goes back to the representatives of the people, and to the people. This gave time for reflection, and to know tile public opinion. If it was a question of expediency merely, the Governor would not be likely to veto such a bill a second time, if the people should send majorities to adopt it. They had better therefore leave it as it was, Mr. LOOMIS looked upon this motion as involving a very great question. If he had much doubt about the opinions and views of this Convention, he should not feel at liberty now to address them without a better preparation or an intention to speak more at length than he should at this time. He looked on this veto power, as established in this government as one of the very best of its provisions, and one of the highest safeguards against improvident and corrupt legislation. In order to pass a bill into a law, if must first be considered in the Assembly: it must be deliberately read and acted upon there by the representatives of the people. It must afterwards be again read and deliberately acted upon by another body of representatives in the Senate, and if they refuse to pass it, their refu. sal is an absolute veto on the act of the Assembly, although it might have the unanimous approval of that body; and thus improper legislation was stopped. But then there was the Executive, to whom bills passed by the two houses were referred, that he might see if they were proper to become law. His veto power however, does not prohibit the passage of such laws; he had but a qualified veto; though he repre. sents the entire state, the constitution has deferred to the judgment of the two houses to the extent that it shall not be an absolute veto, but that it shall put them on their guard. This was the best safety against the passage of local laws, and he denied that it had ever been abused. It exists in the constitution of the general government: it has long existed in this state; he believed it existed in the constitution of every state in the Union to a certain degree, more or less stringent; but in all cases of its exercise, it had been used in favor of popular rights, with. out a single instance to the contrary. One argument used by the gentleman from Onondaga (Mr. RHOADES,) was that the veto power had been used as a means of obtaining popularity. But how could it be used for such a purpose unless a majority of the people was opposed to the law vetoed? The Executive by his veto arrayed himself against a majority of the representa. tives of the people. and if he could obtain popu. larity by interposing his veto, would the gentle. man say that it was a measure which ought to pass? And if it were not, was not that the very best reason for exercising the veto power? If he was satisfied that the judgment of the people was against the law, it was his duty to interpose.Mr. L. had said that this power had not been abused, and in proof he might remind gentlemen that no bill ever vetoed had been subsequently passed, either in this state or by the general government. In the U. S. Congress, a bill something like-on the subject of a U. S. Bank-had been passed and vetoed two or three times, and with popular success, and thus the country had been saved from the influence of such an institu. tion. All parties had become of opinion that such an institution ought not to exist. Mr. L. concurred with the views of the gentleman from Onondaga (Mr. W. TAYLOR,) and therefore he should not argue this question at length. He considered that where a provision of the constitution had been in full force, as this has. from the foundation of the government, and no public complaint had been made of it, it was safer to leave it where it stands. Mr. BROWN said if there was any one principle of the government to which the people of Orange county had signified their attachment, it was to this veto power as it existed nowand he felt that he was wanting in duty to them if he should allow the question to be taken without expressing his and their disapprobation of it. He regarded the existence of this power as necessary in every popular government, whose power was properly distributed. It existed in all governments in some form. In Great Britain, it was a positive veto. Here it was quali. fied-two-thirds of the two branches having the power to pass a bill notwithstanding. Formerly it was reposed in a council of revision. Since 1821 it had been in the hands of the Governor, and he ventured to say that the public sentiment had never condemned it. It was the great conservative power in our government-designed not merely to prevent improvident and hasty legislation, but encroachments of one department upon another. An' all writers agreed, whether their leaning towards federalism or conservatism, that this power was essential somewhere in every government. The princi. pal cause for the calling of this Convention,was the sense of the importance of new limitations on the legislative power-and because it had exceeded its proper boundaries and to an extent inconsistent with the public interest. But instead of arresting the power, we found one of our committees actually proposing to take away one of the principal barriers between the legislature and the people themselves, by providing that a vetoed bill might be passed by the succeeding legislature by a bare majority. Not content with this, we found a gen:lenian, entitled to great respect and consideration, as well per. sonally as for his course here, proposing to strip this power of all potency by giving a mere majority the power to re-enact a vetoed bill!Either proposition he regarded as hazardous to public liberty and the public treasury. Mr. B. denied this power had been improvidently ex. ercised, either by the President of the United States or the Governor ot this state. If ever i 261 was properly exercised, it was by Gen. Jackson in his remarkable vetoes on the Maysville road bill and the Bank bill. At the time the former bill was vetoed, there were on the tables of Congress, bills appropriating alt hundred millions of dollars for works of internal improve. ments in the states. The inteposition of the veto on that occasion saved state power and rights from infrignement and the treasury from depletion. And the people ratified the act. So did they ratify his veto of the bill re-chartering the U. S. Bank. There had been no question on which the public judgment had been so uniform and persevering as on this veto. It was the turning point in the election of 1832, in his own county, and at no time before did the peopie of that county and his own district, ever more strongly express their approbation of any public measure. Mr. RHOADES said lie disclaimed before, and now disclaimed any intention to canvass the propriety or impropriety of Gen. Jackson's coure-and he regretted if he had said any thing to call from the friends of Gen. J. or his opponents, a discussion of that point. Mr. BROWN did not mean to go into that.He only designed to show that the public judgment had been uniform in favor of this power, and its exercise on proper occasions, and that committee number five had mistaken the public sentiment when they undertook to dilute, he might say, to emasculate it. He might allude to the vetoes on the thing called a fiscal agency, as having met with the same popular approval, whatever might have been the prevalent opin. ion of the individual who exercised it. And lie predicted that no effort would ever be made to renew the bank in any shape. Recently too, in this state, the veto power had been exercised under circumstances which he ventured to say, no man who would lay aside his partialities for the measure itself, would not approve. It was interposed to preserve the public faith and credit-to assure the public creditor that the pledged faith of the state would be maintained-and in his own county. that act was ratified by as decisive and expressive a vote as the veto of the bank bill by Gen. Jackson. Under these circumstances, he did not feel at liberty to omit both the pending amendment and the proposition ot the committee itself. Mr. W. B. WRIGHT said he had voted, the other day, when the question in relation to the qua.!ifications of Governor was under discussion, to strike out the section restricting the people in their choice. Practically, he did not deem the question of much importance, but a principle seemed to him to be involved in it, that he was by his vote either to subscribe to or reject. He did not consider that he had come here to propose restrictions on popular sovereignty, or even delegated power, unless experience or the history and career of representative democracies had fully demonstrated to him the wisdom and necessity of such restrictions. He was in favor of the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Onondaga (Mr. RHOADEs) and, in imitation of the gentleman from Orange (Mr. BROWN,) he would say that if the constituency he had the honor to represent, had emphatically expressed their dissent to any part of the ex. isting constitution more than another, it was to, this two-third provision. We are all, said Mr. W., impressed with the belief that a system of guards and checks upon delegated power is of vital importance in a representative government,. but those guards and checks should be so ar. ranged, as to be of practical utility, and consistent with the genius, and spirit, and principles. of the government itself. No man would contend, in this enlightened age and with seventy years' of experience in self government to liberalhze the mind and dispel prejudice, that the Ex. ecutive should possess a direct, unqualified negative on the acts of the legislature, for this would be, for the time, clothing a single individ. ual, elevated by the popular will, with the powers of a despot. Nor will it be contended, that that universally admitted anl usually safe rule, that the majority should govern, should, by any system, be abrogated, unless stern necessity de. monstrated the wisdom of the abrogation. Nor should a system of balances and checks clothe a department of the government with a power which from its odious character, or from any other cause, has no practical utility, because rarely exercised, nor is it expected that it will be exerted. Yet the section reported by the committee, practically proposes to do all these things, and it was but another exemplification to his mind of the truth that however enlarged and liberal our views may be, and however democratic ordinarily our feelings and sentiments, there is a magic charm in precedent, and that many will even look upon error with complacency, if it have the dust of antiquityupon it. Suppose, said Mr. W., the system of Executive negation upon legislative action were now broached for the first time, after our experience of seventy years in representative democratic government, who of ns would stand forth to de. fend the principle, even as far as the committee have gone. He ventured to say none. Yet it might be, because this anti-repub!ican principle has had a place in the constitution of the United States, and of several of our sister states, and perhaps has done no essential harm, that a majority of the committee will say, let it stand. He was not, however, one of them. Had it never have been exercised from the foundation of the government, he would place out of the reach of the Executive, what is, in effect, an unqualified negation of legislative action. This he would do, because the principle is inconsistent with the genius and spirit of our institutions,-is in direct opposition to the salutary rule that the majority should govern, and is lodging Omnipotent power in the hands of one man, to restrain the action of a majority of the immediate representatives of the people, who are supposed best to understand the wants and wishes ot those whom they represent. I know, said Mr. W., that it has been said that the committee propose but a qualified negative. This is true in words; but all must see that, in efect, it is unqualified. In how many instances in the legislative experience of this state, or of other states, have two thirds of both houses been obtained for the passage of a bill returned by the Governor? The instances are rare wherein two-thirds have had the firm. ness to array themselves against the action of the Executive. Whilst parties exist, and 262 the Governor is the acknowledged leader and head of one or the other of them, his influence can at all times prevent such a result, unless it might be in the case of a charter of a corporation, in which peculiar influences have been successfully applied to the legislature, and then the chances are that similar appliances have been extended to the Executive. Practically, there. fore, the negative proposed is an unqualified one. In ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, the power of the despot would be successfully exerted. Yet a proposition to confer directly upon an individual a power thus successfully ex. ercised indirectly, would perhaps be scouted at by the committee. Again, it might well be said, should we adopt the suggestions of con. mittee number five, in relation to this two-third provision, that our action would be inconsistent in another particular. It seems to be the uni. versal sentiment, that too much power is now lodged in the hands of the Executive-that the public security and well-being requires that he should be stripped of a large portion of his pa. tronage; yet whilst you are taking from him the dispensation of office and place, you would still leave in his hands, to be exercised arbitrarily,,and witL no accountability or practical restraint upon him, save the dread of retirement at the end of his official term, a power alove and beyond the legislature-a power to effectually restrain the law-making department of your gov. ernment a power, in its scope and influence, infinitely above that of conferrine place on the sycophants "that dance attendance around the throne." Whilst you can see, or fancy corruption in the distribuiion of rewards to favorites, you cannot imagine corruption, or foresee danger, in conferring upon one man-in a free government-a government purely of law-the exercise of a power akin to that which has enabled despots to convert men into serfs in all ages of the world. The proposition, said Mr. W., requiring a twothird vote to relieve from the effects of a negative of the Executive, is also inconsistent with that safe rule in a representative democracy that the majority should govern, whether exercising elementary sovereignty or delegated power; and in his judgment, in no condition of delegated authority, could this rule be more safely exercised than with the legislature, more especially as it is proposed, by districting the state, to break up even the chance of'combination for corrupt purposes. One branch of the legislature comes annually from the body of the people; the other, as is proposed, simultaneously with the Executive; and each member of either branch is elected in his particular district as a component part of the law.-making department, and that alone. He is rightly supposed, from his proximity to the constituent body, to understand fully the wants and wishes of that portion which he represents, and he comes to these halls with popular confidence freshly stamped upon him. Whilst each individual is in some sense a representative of the state at large, he is regarded, and so regards himself, as the peculiar representative of the constituency that elects him. It must be apparent, under such circum. stances (unless the idea of human integrity is totally abandoned) that no bill could pass both branches of the legislature, by a majority of all the members elected without peculiar merit.But were it otherwise, a majority of the people, acting through their representatives, have for the time sanctioned it, and unless in contraven. tion of those great natural, unalienable rights, endowed by the Creator on man, and which no human government can rishtly subvert, who will say that in this, as in the exercise of elementary and delegated power in other cases, the majority should not govern? But what would be the effect of the proposition of Committee No. Five. A bill passes both branches of the legislature-it is returned by the Governor with his negative-the popular branch may reconsider and pass it unanimously-in tie other branch it may require but one vote to have secured two. thirds, yet it is lost. The law, however salutary, is rejected-the legislative arm is paralyzed by the potency of the One Man power - It is not enough that the majority of one branch of the legislature shall act as a check uponthe excesses of the other,but the Executive arm must intervene to save the people from their immedi. ate representatives-in truth to save the people from themselves! I am aware, said Mr.W., that a principal reason assigned for lodging this dangerous power with the Executive is, that the legislative department may, through excitement, haste. inadvertence or design lend itself to the passage of bad laws. Butif a case can be conceived in which a majority of all the members elected to both branches of the legislature shall so far for. get their duty and responsibility to their constituents as to trifle with or sacrifice the great interests entrusted to them, and defy and despise the popular condemnation which would be eer. tain speedily to visit them, what security is there that a single individual, not so immediately or so speedily responsible to the people, will not partake of the same temper and feelings? What shall exempt him from the same infirmities? May not corruption or excitement assail, aye, more easily assail, one than twenty or fifty or an hundred? But the proposed amendment of the gentleman from Onondaga(Mr RHOADES) guards against hasty and inconsiderate legislation. If any evil is to be apprehended from this source, it gives time for excitement to subside, and calm reflection to intervene-it goes further, and asks that the legislature shall deliberately consider the objections of the Executive. The amendment provides that no bill can become a law until it has been presented to the Governor -he may return it with his objections, and then should a majority of all the members elected to both houses solemnly reconsider and approve it, it shall be a law notwithstanding the objections. The same formality and deliberation are required under the amendment as in the section reported by committee number five. The legislature will not only have time, but the benefit and influence of the Governor's objections to allay excitement, correct inadvertence, and stifle culpable design. It is, said Mr. W., an axiom of free govern. ment, that the departments of power-the exec. utive, legislative and judicial-should be kept separate and distinct,-that to mingle these pow. ers, would be attended with danger to the gov. 263 ernment, inasmuch as in proportion to the mingling of them together, would the security arising from each department being a check upon the other, be weakened. In this light, this neg. atlve of the Executive upon the deliberate action of a majority of the legislature, had ever seemed to him an anomaly. He was aware that it had been said that there is a tendency in the legislative department to grasp the powers of the other departments, and to subject them to their control-that the legislature might humble the Executive by diminishing his salary, or break up the courts, by withholding the compensation of the judges. But so far as the Executive is concerned, the committee had already provided against a contingency of this character, in the amendments to the fourth section of the report, which places out of the reach of the legislature the increase or diminution of his compensation during his continuance in office, and he had no doubt that a similar provision would be made in relation to the judges. The principle, said Mr. W., that a majority of all the members elected to the legislature may pass a bill notwithstanding the objections of the Gove nor, is not a novel one. It is a prominent feature in ten of the constitutions of our sister states. It was incorporated into the constitution of Kentucky in 1799; into that of Indiana in 1816; into those of Connectinut and Illinois in 1818; into that of Alabama, in 1819; into those of Ver. mont and Arkansas in 1836; into that of Florida in 1833; into that of New-Jersey in 1844; and into that of Missouri in 1820, and re-adopted in 1845. A more liberal rule also prevails in eight of the states: In Tennessee, Ohio, Virginia, Rhode Island, Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina and South Carolina, the Executive has not even a negative upon a majority of the legislature. Virginia repudiates the doctrine of Executive negation in any form, and although a distinguished member of the Convention of 1821 confidently expressed the opinion that she would, on a remodelling of her organic law, embrace the principle, yet a convention assembled in 1830 again repudiated it. So, also, in little Rhode Island is the principle repudiated,-a state which, it has been exceedingly fashionable recently, in certain quat ters, to denounce as antidemocratic, and as governed by "Algerines." I am aware, saifd Mr. W., that committee No. five can appeal to precedent to justify the insertion of the two-third provision in their report The error, if error it be, is rendered venerable by age. The power of negation has ever been a prerogative of the King of Great Britain, in its direct, unqualified form. In the early period of our existence as a free people, it was incorporated into the constitution of Massachusetts in the form now proposed by committee No. five -from thence it was engrafted upon the constitution of the Union. and it is now a distinguishing feature of several of the constitutions of the old thirteen states; and yet all of these instruments declare the supreme power to be in the people, and all, if not in terms, do in spirit, disavow the one man power. The principle was also engrafted on our own constitution in 1821; by the instrument then adopted the same power which had been previously exercised by a council, consisting of the Governor, Chancel. lor and Judges of the Supreme Court, was transferred to the Governor alone, and although he could admire the wisdom which induced the removal of judicial officers from the political arena, he could not equally admire the wisdom which yielded up a majority of the law-making power to the caprice of a single individual In framing the fundamental law, said Mr. W. it is right and proper to look to example, when no great principle is at stake; but in this enlightened period in the history of self-government, charged as the Convention were, with the grave duty of preparing and submitting to the adoption of the people, a plan of government which should secure the greatest sum of human freedom consistent with the safety of society, gentleman should be well assured before they become firmly wedded to a principle, that it is not only based in wisdom, but is in consonance with the important end to be attained. He submitted that we should gain but little,by blindly adhering to precedent and disregarding experience. As time rolls on men grow wiser so far as the science of government is concerned. Human rights come to be better understood and their area extended. It is by no moans certain that were the illustrious men who framed the constitution of the Union, with our experience and progress in self-government, now called upon to discharge that duty they would recommed, for the popular adoption, a power in the Executive of vetoing the acts of a majority of the legislature. It is well understood that many of those distinguished men were, at the time, inclined to give extraordinary strength to the Executive arm, whilst others feared legislative intrusion upon the rights and powers of the other departments of the government; experience, however, had shown that it required not this shield to the Executive, and that instead of legislative in. trusion, the people have had in numberless in. stances, reason to deprecate Executive encroachment. Besides, the constitution pf the United States was adopted as a compromise, not only between the people of the different sections of the Union, but also between the states. The smaller states might reasonably require the interposition of the Executive against the majority of the larger and more populous states. He had alluded to the constitution of the United States, and the circumstances under which it was formed, for the reason that in his opinion, the sanction which that instrument gives to this two-third provision, had more than any other circumstance, led to the adoption of a similar principle by several of the states. The committee, said Mr. W., who made this report, whilst they retain the two-third provision, introduce an amendment to the existing constitution recognizing in part the principle for which he contended. By their report, although a bill may not be approved by two-thirds of the members present, a subsequent legislature may pass it by a majority. The justness of the prin. ciple that a majority shall in any case pass a bill, notwithstanding the objections of the Exe cutive being recognized, why not interpose the principle at the threshhold in all cases? Is there such a magical charm in precedent, that the committee dreaded to boldly propose the innovation, and will the same influence deter the 264 Convention from incorporating it in the organ. ic law? He hoped not. He did not know what would be the action of the majority upon this subject, but for himself', he should never by his vote, consent to invest the Executive with the power of arbitrarily opposing the popular will, as expressed through a majority of the legisla. ture, or in other words of blocking the wheels of legislation when it shall seem to him expedient. He would go as far as any man to purify the legislative halls, by breaking up those great sources of corruption, central official patronage and special legislation; but he could never consent to place an omnipotent, restraininng power over a majority of the people's immediate representatives. In any government, the investiture and exercise of the one man power is dangerous to human liberty; but in a government like ours, founded upon popular sovereignty, it is not only dangerous, but diametrically opposed to its genius and spirit. Aside fiom principle, there was not that man on earth, upright and pure as he might seem to be, to whom he would entrust power so supreme, upon principle, holding as he did to the sovereignly of numbers, it would not only be improbable, but impossible that he should do it. He could never consent to retain in the fundamental law of the state a. principle so repugnant to all notions of popular freedom-so despotic in its character —that even in England, where the prerogatives of the Crown are in most cases respected and exercised, no sovereign has ventured to exert for more than a century. It had been said by gentlemen that in this state the power had never been abused, but there was no security that it would not be. When was our legislature ever converted into an excited, unregulated mob, acting solely from impluse and passion, and without reflection or deliberation? Yet the advocates of this power find the reason for its existence in the supposition that such a state of things may arise. The principle is right, or it is wrong. If right it should be retained; if wrong, expunged. Because of the mischief it may do, he was for expunging it, and he should therefore cord ally vote for the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Onondaga (Mr. RHOADKS.) Mr. STETSON characterized the remarks of the gentleman from Sullivan as exceedingly specious. Mr. S. yielded to the principle that the majority should govern-but how govern? When govern? For what and how long govern? He reminded gentlemen who had spoken of monarchies and eloquently in, denunciation of the one. man power. that the worst of all despotisms was that of an oligarchy. And that, he was understood to say would be a government where a majority of the legislature would bind the present and future generations. In rooting out a fancied monarchy, gentlemen would introduce a more odious oligarchy; and that was the specious character of the gentleman's remarks. It was a fallacy to suppose that a majority of the legislature, between the two branches of which there might be collusion, could not be controlled by the sole representative of the whole people, without infringing the principle that a majority should govern. Did the legislature never do wrong? The remark the majority must always be right, seemed to imply that they never didfor the gentleman would not apply it to our Executive. This was equivalent to the odious monarchical doctrine that the king could do no wrong. He asked the gentleman what there was, in the absence of this power, t, prevent a majority of the legislature, composed of politicians and the representatives of localities, from pledging the property of the state, for millions untold and uncounted. Mr. S. would trust it to the will of a majority of the people, but he was not willing to trust it with a temporary depository of power which had no higher authority than the Governor himself. Members of the legislature were representatives of the people, not the people themselves. So was your Governor the representative of the whole people; and how would they protect themselves against the indiscreet acts of a majority of the legislature? His answer was, by the qualified veto of the old constitution. If it had been heretofore an unqualified veto, because never overruled by two-thirds, it was because it had never been applied wrongfully. To leave it to a majority ot the legislature to overturn a veto on one of their own acts, would be to make it nugatory. If the veto pow. er had never been exercised in England-the power to prorouge Parliament-a greater power still-had been exercised frequently. The references to the U. S. constitution, and to congress, were inapplicable here. What might be an ob. jection there, would not be here, because here the people could now directly act on this subject. The object and design of the veto was to interpose between misled legislative power and the people themselves, and for the security of the latter. The moment almost that the Executive vetoed a bill, he as well as the legislature turned to the common source of power, and the 'people acted as umpire between them. Let not gentlemen put that security beyond all reach by making it entirely one-sided. But what was there calling for this change? What great public mischief to call for it? The allusions to the vetoes of Gen. Jackson had been fully met, and the purposes for which they were made-but he could forbear to ask the question what the reason was why we had no Bank now? Was it from fear of another veto, or because the people had said we should not have one? Mr. S. hoped this amendment would be voted down. He hoped also that the additional new matter, which threw over to another legislature the exercise of the veto power, would also be voted down There would be more evil engendered out of this new matter than in any other conceivable form. He could foresee that it would be a direct inducement to the course which was now so fruitful of bad measures-to crowd every bill of a doubtful character into the heel of the session, in the hope that it might escape scrutiny, and slip through; or if perchance it should be vetoed, to get up a fight with the Executive before the people-to make the matter an element at an election-in localities-overlooked generally to be sure, but nevertheless potent enough perhaps in localities to affect a general result. Thus, it might become a mere instrument of hostility to the Executive. But why this provision for consecutive legislation from session to session? 265 What was there in the present constitution to two-thirds and could not have been. Had it prevent a vetoed bill from being taken up at a been vetoed, it would have gone by the board. succeeding session and passed? No Executive So with the tariff. About the policy of that would venture to veto a bill thus passed a measure, gentlemen differed no doubt from him. second time, if the same bill. If it was a dif- But he spoke of it only as an important meaferent bill, why should he not have the power of sure as well to the government as to the whole a veto then? He hoped, ardently hoped, that country. But that measure conld not have been this old landmark of the sovereignty of the peo. carried by two-thirds, though it had a decided pie-this recognition of the truth that there re- majority in its favor. The use he desired to sides the majority that should govern, would not make of the circumstance was this. All knew be obliterated by the vote of the Convention, but that there was a bill pending in Congress to rethat all amendment would be voted down, and peal that law. All knew that if Mr. Clay was the constitution of 1821 in this particular remain President no such bill could pass. All knew untouched. that a very slight change in this state, or in a Mr. PENNIMAN said he had been mainly neighboring state, would have elected Mr. Clay. anticipated in the remarks he intended to make, And Mr. P. asserted that if Mr. Clay had not particularly in reference to the constitutional written too many letters, Mr. Clay would have provisions of other states, by the gentlemen been President. The abolitionists of this state from Sullivan and Onondaga (Messrs. WRIGHT alone could have done it. And if it had notbeen and RHOADES), and having said this, it was ne. for the humbuggery and huggermuggery of nacessary that he should say further, that this tivism, Mr. Clay would have been elected Pre. was the only provision in regard to which com- sident. mittee number five were not unanimous-the Mr. RHOADES hoped the gentleman from gentleman from Oswego and himself differing New Orleans-Orleans he meant-after rebuk. from the rest of the committee, he (Mr. P.) a- ing him for alluding to Gen. Jackson's vetoes, greeing substantially with the gentleman from was not going to canvass the whole camapaign Onondaga, and the other dissenting member of 1844. holding to the existing constitution in this re- The CHAIR:-The gentleman from Orleans spect. Mr. P. was aware that he might have is entitled to the floor. offered his views when this article was present- Mr. PENNIMAN understood himself if the ed, as suggested by the gentleman from Ontario gentleman did not understand him. Other gen(Mr. WORDEN). Perhaps, however, he was tlemen had alluded to these matters, and had right in leaving that duty to the chairman (Mr. travelled over party ground. But he had no MORRIS). But Mr. P. had one remark to make such intention. He simply took facts as they in answer to the gentleman from Ontario, who existed, and the only use he made of them was admonished him of his egotism and his praise this-that the tariff bill could not be repealed of himself-and that was that Mr. P. was pro. with Mr. Clay in the chair, and that it was as foundly grateful for the kind and gentlemanly likely he should be then President as any other manner in which he and the Convention were. man, and that without a single alteration in the treated by that gentleman-and wishing to re- members of Congress. So in our own state, ciprocate such kindness. Mr. P. only wanted the facts showed that the bill for the constructhe gentleman to review his own printed speech. tion of the Erie canal could not have become a He wanted the gentleman to understand it-for law but for the fact that the veto power was not if ever there was an instance in which the old in the hands of the then Governor, but in a proverb could apply-physician heal thyself- council of revision. And all that saved the it was to that gentleman. Mr. P. went on to bill was Vice-President Tompkins attending the say that the state of his health barely permitted council and endeavoring to defeat the bill, and him to sit there until now, and he should be the arguments which he used to persuade Chanbrief. He was decidedly opposed to the provi. cellor Kent to go against the bill carried him in sion of the old constitution, and measurably to favor of it. The vote in the Assembly stood 51 the proposition of the committee of which he was to 40; in the Senate two-thirds for it. After one. He was decidedly in favor of the amend- controverting Mr. BROWN's assertion that the ment, because he held it to be the only true de- amount of bills for internal improvements laymocratic ground and doctrine that a majority of ing on the table in Congress was one hundred the people should govern. He held also that a millions, Mr. PENNIMAN said the bills were not majority of the legislature for the time being were for construction only, but partly for mere surthe people virtually, and he was opposed to giv. veys and partly estimates, when the Maysville ing the Governor or any human being on earth, road. bill was vetoed. Mr. P. went on to cona controlling influence over the majority of the trovert another position of that gentleman, to the people. This provision of the old constitution effect that Gen. Jackson's popularity was owing made the Governor equal to two-thirds of the to his veto of the bank bill-insisting that it was people. Mr. P. regretted that his friend from his previously acquired popularity that carried Onondaga had referred to certain measures in him through that struggle, and that nothing but the manner he had, for it had raised the ire of that swayed down the bank. He cited as an illus. certain gentlemen to a high pitch. But he must tration of the influence of Old Hickory the alleg. be permitted to say that there had never been an ed change in the views and course of Mr. Dallas, instance in his recollection, when a prominent who he said, from being an ardent bank man in measure affecting the general interests of the the U. S. senate, was found soon after at Phila. whole Union, or a state, which could have pass delphia sustaining the veto. But to return to the ed against a veto by a majority of two-thirds.- question. True we might cripple the Governor The war measure of 1812, was not carried by in point of patronage by our action-but of 266 what avail is this, when you left him with pow.'on a second time. The bill vetoed by Gov. er equivalent to two-thirds of the people? He Marcy was returned to the Assembly, and upon was in favor of some restriction upon hasty leg- being put on its passage a second time, was reislation-but he did insist that after a bill had jected by a unanimous vote. been returned with objections, and those objec- Mr. W. TAYLOR proceeded on the suppositions had been duly considered and a majority of tion that the requisition of two-thirds would disall elected was found to be in favor of it, it courage effort to revive a vetoed bill. shouli become a law, the veto notwithstanding. Mr. PATTERSON:-Not if two-thirds of In that respect he preferred the amendment to those present; so much as to require a majority the section reported by the committee. And of all elected. Mr. P. said he should vote for he thought it not a little inconsistent in those the amendment, not because he was opposed to who objected to this as cripling the power of the veto power-for he was not-but because the Executive, and yet, who objected strongly the amendment was more certain and definite to any restrictions on the popular will in the se. Mr. MANN preferred the section of the old lection of a candidate for Governor. With constitution-with this difference, that he would mere party politics he desired not to meddle make it necessary to have two-thirds of all here-but he must be permitted to allude in con- elected to overthrow a veto. He would wait, elusion to the course of Gen. Root and Peter R. however, until this amendment was disposed of, Livingston in the Convention of 1821. He be-. efore offering such an amendment. lieved they were as sound and pure democrats, Mr. CLYDE said the gentleman had antici. and men of as great sagacity and talent, as this pated him. He moved to amend by striking out state had ever furnished. They took the same all the new matter and changing the old by striground that the gentleman from Onondaga now king out "present," wherever it occurs, and did-and so did a large portion of the democrats inserting "elected." in that Convention. But the state of his health Mr. MANN moved to amend Mr. RHOADES' admonished him that it was time to bring his proposition in like manner. remarks to a close. Mr. STOW denied that it was in accordance Mr. PATTERSON proposed simply to call with the theory of our government that a majorattention to the practical operation of the two ity was to rule uncontrolled and unchecked. antagonist plans here-leaving others to talk On the contrary, the whole theory of our gov. about Gen. Jackson or Capt. Tyler as they eminent was that a majority might do wrong.. pleased. As the section stood, it required a ma- Hence it was that we had two branches of the jority of two.thirds of those present to pass a legislature, one holding for a longer term and bill under a veto. The amendment required a representing larger districts than the other? majority of all elected to both branches. That Why did we have a judiciary system at all? was the only question before the committeenow. Why have judges and a jury? But if it were A majority of all elected to the Assembly would true that we should not place checks on the peo. be 65; to the Senate 17-and these would be the pie, under any circumstances, still, he submitnumbers under the amendment required to pass ted that the legislature were not the people, nor a vetoed bill. But how was it under the origi- as a matter of course their representatives — nal section? Two-thirds of all present, if the They were not in any respect so essentially and house was-as full as it ordinarily was, would be directly the representatives of the people as the a less number than a majority of all elected.- Governor himself! To pretend to give him a Examine the journals of the house for ten years check upon legislation, and yet allow him to be past, and it would be found that the number overruled by a mere majority, would be a mockpresent daily did not average 100. A quorum ery, and unworthy of serious men. And again was 65; two-thirds of that number would be 44. his check was essential to prevent the encroach. Under the original section therefore, 44 in the ment of the legislative upon the Executive de. house and 12 in the senate would be all that partment. He would leave the section substan. would be necessary to pass a vetoed bill. Two- tially as the committee reported it. Though he thirds of those present, at all events, was a very thought it would make practically very little uncertain number. It might be 44, and, if the difference whether it were two-thirds of those house was full, it might be 86. He had just present or those elected. And he was willing opened the journals of the house, at random, to arrange it in any way so that the Governor and he had opened at a place where the ayes and could appeal from the legislature to the people. noes were several times taken, and he found that Mr. O'CONOR briefly expressed his intention in but 14 cases were there 100 present, whilst in to vote for the amendment, preserving as it did three times that number of cases there were a the veto as it was now in all its force and integless number in the house, Ordinarily therefore rity, and adding the certainty in point of number it would require more to overrule a veto under which would be required to overrule the Execu. the amendment than under the original section. tive. As to this veto power-during his eight years' Mr. MORRIS conceded that the amendment experience in the legislature, had been entirely striking out present, &c., was proper, and he different from that of the gentleman from Onon- should vote for it. daga (Mr. W. TAYLOR). During these eight Mr. TALLMADGE took the ground that this years, but two bills had been vetoed, one by alteration would make the veto an absolute pro. Gov. Marcy and one by Gov. Seward. And in hibition, rather than a suggestion that the legisthese cases, instead of members who originally lature had made a mistake. This might render voted for the bill, voting for it again, the fact odious a necessary power of reconsideration, was that the bill vetoed by Gov. Seward was and ought not to be adopted without strong laid on the table in the Senate and never acted reasons. 26'8 Mr. MANN'S motion prevailed-56 to 45.! all after the word law, towards the close of toe The question then recurred on Mr. RHOADES' section-giving the Governor ten days after the proposition as amended. close of a session to sign bills. Mr. TALLMADGE called attention to the This motion was agreed to. fact that the proposition now required the vote Mr. RHOADES' amendment, as amended, on the final passage of every bill to be taken by was then agreed to, and ayes and noes. It should be such bills, refer- The article as amended was reported to the ring to those vetoed only. Convention. This suggestion, after some conversation, was The article, as amended, was then ordered to carried out, and the amendment made. be printed, and the Convention Mr. TALLMADGE then moved to strike out Adjourned to 9 o'clock, to-morrow morning. FRIDAY, JULY 17. Prayer by the Rev. J. KNAPP. After a few words of explanation from Mr. The PRESIDENT laid before the Convention CHATFIELD, a report from the Chancellor in answer to a reso- The section was agreed to. lution, furnishing the aggregate amount of funds The second section was then read, as follows: subject to the order of the court of chancery on 2 No person except a citizen of the United States on the 1st of January. The amount was stated shall be eligible to the office of Governor; nor shall at $2,921,900 38. any person be eligible to that office who shall not have DEBATE IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. been five years a resident within the state; unless he shall have been absent during that time on public buMr. MANN offered the following: siness of the United States or of this state. Resolved, That when in committee of the whole, no Mr. HUNTINGTON of Suffolk moved to inmember shall speak more than once to any question, Mr. HUNTINGTON of Suffolk moved to in until every member choosing to speak has spoken, or by sert in the 3rd line after the words "eligible to unanimous consent of the convention. that office" the words " who shall not have atHe said he offered this resolution to give the tained the age of 30 years." modest gentlemen an opportunity to be heard. Mr. MILLER demanded the yeas and nays He found that when in committee of the whole and they were ordered, and being taken resulted a certain number of gentlemen monopolized all thus-yeas 61, nays 49. So the amendment was the time. They managed some how to get the carried. floor, and others were precluded who might have AYES-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, F. F. Backns, H. a word to say, because they were too modest to Backus, Bouck, Brayton, Bull D. D Campbell, Cancontend for the floor; and when ultimately they dee, Clark, Clyde, Conely, Crooker, Cuddeback,Dana, did succeed, they were put down by cries of Dubois, Forsyth, Gardner, Gebhard, Graham, Greene, question" by those gentlemen who had worn Harrison, Hawley, Hoffman, Hunter, A Huntington, question" by those gentlemen who had worn E. Huntington, Hyde, Jordan, Kemble, Kingsley, Meout the time in debate. Nitt, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Nicholas, Parish, PenA debate ensued in which Messrs. WILLARD, niman, Porter, Richmond, Riker, St. John, Salisbury, PATTERSON, RUSSELL, MURPHY, CHAT- Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Simmons, E Spencer, Stanton, FIELD, W. TAYLOR, CLYDE and others Stow, Strong, Taggart, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, TutFIELD, W. TAYLOR, CLYDE and others hill, Waterbury, Willard, Wood, A. Wright, Yawger, took part in relation to the force of the present, Young-61. and of parliamentary law, to accomplish the ob- NAYS-Messrs. Archer, Bascom, Bergen, Bowdish, ject the gentleman had in view. Brown, Bruce, Brundage, Burr, Cambreleng, R. CampMr. MANN then withdrew his resolution. bell, jr., Chatfield, Cook, Cornell, Danforth, Dodd, Dorlon, Flanders, Harris, Hart, Hotchkiss, Hunt, EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. Hutchinson, Jones, Kernan, Kirkland, Loomis, Mann, The Convention took up the report of the cor. Murphy, Nellis, Nicoll, O'Conor, Patterson, Powers, mittee of the whole on the Article reported by President, Rhoades, Russell, Shepard Stephens, Stet. son, Swackhamer, Taft, W. Taylor, Townsed, Van the 5th standing committee. The question was Schoonhoven, Warren, White, Witbeck, Worden, on agreeing to the report of the committee of the Youngs-49. whole. Mr. HARRISON moved the insertion of the Mr.HATFIELD moved that it be taken up word " native," to follow the words " no person by sections. except a,' in the first line. The 1st section was read accordingly as fol. M MANN demanded the yeas and nays and lows:they were taken and resulted thus-yeas 6, nays 1. The executive power shall be vested in a Gover- 106 The ayes were Messrs. Dubois, Gardinor. He shall hold his office for two years; and a a isn, nnin a Wo Lieutenant Governor shall be chosen at the same time ner, Gebhard, Harrison, Penniman and Wood. and for the same term. So the amendment was rejected. Mr. YOUNG moved an amendment which was Mr. HARRISON desired to offer another agreed to, so that the section stands thus: amendment as a substitute for the whole section ~ 1. The executive power shall be vested in a Govas follows: ernor, who shall hold his office for two years. A Lieu. No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor tenant Governor shall be chosen at the same time and unless he shall be 80 years of age, and shall have been for the same term. 10 year- a resident of the United States, and five years Mr. O'CONOR thought the words " at the a resident of this state, unless he shall have been absame time and" in the last line, were unnecessa- sent o public business of this state, or the United s etitates. And no person shall be constituionally eligi ry, as there was a suitable provision in another le to the office of Lieut. Governor who s hall not be section. epligible to the ofice of Govcrnor. 268 Mr. TOWNSEND enquired if this amend. ment was offered in committee of the whole. Mr. HARRISON said, essentially it was, though not in this precise form. Mr. HUNT desired to offer an amendment to the section as it stood, and it took precedence. It was to insert after the 30 years' qualification, which had been agreed to, the words;' or who shall have passed the age of 70." Mr. CHATFIELD moved to amend by striking out 70 and inserting 60. Mr. HUNT accepted the amendmentThe amendment as amended was lost, the vote being 6 in the affirmative and 103 in the negative. The ayes were Messrs. Angel, R. Campbell, Chatfield, Cook, Cornell and Stow. Mr. CHATFIELD said it was known that all the way through this controversy he had been against a restricted eligibility, but as the convention had begun to establish limitations and checks, he thought they ought to guard against the danger from the other side, of drivelling dotage. Having disposed of those questions he now moved, that there might be no misunderstanding on the subject, the following:Every qualified elector of this state shall be eligible to the office of Governor. Mr. ANGEL moved to insert the words "next preceding his election" after the words "five years" in the third article. Mr. STETSON thought this qualification of residence might be susceptible of a construction which might not meet the approbation of the committee. Mr. BRUCE hoped the amendment would prevail, otherwise a man might become a citizen, go away for many years; return, and in twentyfour hours be qualified to and be elected Governor. He could see no objection to the amendment. Mr. BROWN now rose and asked the Convention to give him the opportunity to record his vote on the questions already taken. It would be a favor which he should be willing to extend to other gentlemen at any time. The ground on which he asked it was, that he had been detained from the Convention, by labor for the Convention. The PRESIDENT put the question on granting leave. Mr. SIMMONS asked the gentleman from Orange, if his detention had been occasioned by the business of the Convention. Mr. BROWN replied that it was Mr. SIMMONS thought then that no bad pre. cedent would be established and he hoped leave would be given. Leave was unanimously given accordingly, and Mr. BROWN voted no on the three questions taken. Mr. DANA spoke in favor of the amendment. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. ANGEL then moved the insertion of the word "citizen" after the word resident in the third line. Mr. SHEPARD called for the yeas and nays thereon. Mr. O'CONOR said this would provide 5 years before and 5 years after naturalization.It was almost as much of nativeism as could be got in without the name. He thought those who voted for the 30 years' qualification would vote for this; he hoped they would. The yeas and nays were ordered. Mr. MURPHY said he would ask the indulgence of the convention for a few remarks in regard to the amendment of the gentleman from Allegany, (Mr. ANGEL) because it was a new proposition which had not been offered when in committee of the whole, and which had a very important bearing. He hoped it would be rejected, and that those who had sustained the provision requiring the qualification of thirty years of age, would not, as the gentleman from New-York (Mr. O'CoNoR) had suggested, also vote for this. Two wrongs did not make a right; and this was too important a matter to be hastily or inconsiderately voted upon. He was opposed to the amendment because its effect would be to require a ten years residence in certain cases before adopted citizens would be eligible.Thus a foreigner landing in this state with the bona fide intention to become a citizen, and actu. ally becoming such after a residence of five years, would, according to our present constitution, and according to the section under consideration as it now stands, be eligible to the office of Governor; but if this amendment be adopted you will require a further residence of an additional five years before he would be eligible.Now this was making a distinction between native and adopted citizens which he did not wish to see admitted. They had with great unanimity just stricken out the word native and abolished that odious interpolation in the constitution, and he trusted they would adhere to the principle of that vote. He called upon those who had voted with him on his motion for that purpose, because it created two classes of citizens, to come up and vote down the specious amendment of the gentleman from Allegany. Mr. ANGEL said he had not offered this amendment without due reflection. He thought it would be doing no injustice to the truth were he to say that he had as much regard for foreigners and as much kind feeling towards them as the gentleman from Kings (Mr. MURPHY). He had a due regard for them. He was pleased with their emigrating to this country. They come here often fitted for offices and we give them a due share. They flee from oppression at home, and they find an asylum here. We afford them all the privileges we can, but it must be borne in mind that every foreigner brings with him some lingering feeling from the land of his nativity which may be adverse to his duty here if he were put in this office too speedily. The gentleman from Kings said in substance-he did not recollect the precise words-that it was an oppressive restriction on foreigners to make them wait five years after naturalization before they could become Governor. Mr. MURPHY denied that he had said any thing of the sort. He had said he was opposed to the amendment because it established a distinction between native and naturalized citizens. Mr. ANGEL continued. Well, what kind of oppression was that? When they selected a chief magistrate for three millions of people to presi de over the Empire State, was it an hardship to say to a man, " because you have not been a citizen 5 years, you cannot be Governor." 269 Some period should be fixed, and he thought 10 when we go abroad? They had been told that years' residence was short enough-b before and that government claimed perpetual allegiance 5 after acquiring citizenship. The Convention from her subjects, and no American, whatever had just passed a vote excluding the word " na- may have been his service, can hold the most tive," and they had made 30 years a qualifica. trifling office there. Could we then throw open tion of a native-born citizen-thus establishing every office of the state-could we especially a nine years' quarantine for the native born; and throw open the chair of the Executive chief mahe really hoped it would not be considered as in- gistrate to foreigners, who anticipate, when they dicating an unkind feeling towards foreigners, to land on our shores, that they shall be eligible to require that they should have a 5 years' citizen. it after 5 years' residence? It was unjust, in ship. He had no unkind feeling for foreigners every view of the subject, and hence he approat all; but he wished to ask if there was any ved of the proposition of the gentleman from AlAmerican feeling there, or whether they would legany. Again, on our frontier we have one or give up every thing to men who had but recently two millions of people who may be arrayed in come into the country? He could not make up hostility against us. They are the subjects of a his mind to say it would be safe to adopt it as foreign power, the most formidable on the globe, it is. and yet we are called upon to place at the head Mr. HARRISON had a few remarks to offer of our army, in time of war, a man who had to the Convention, and he regretted that he was only been here 5 years, and who could never dinot able to offer them in a better form. There vest himself of his allegiance to the country were here two distinct propositions which must whence he came. He trusted the Convention present themselves to the Convention. The first would hesitate before they fixed in the constituwas, that gentlemen either meant to adopt such tion such a provision, which would place them distinctive qualifications as should stand forth at the disposition of a foreigner, who had not prominently and be clearly perceptible in the been a resident within the bosom of this country constitution, or they would abandon the ground for more than 5 years. In conclusion, he repeatentirely and throw themselves back on the prop- ed that we ought, from regard to the dignity of our osition some time since made by the gentleman state, to adopt some restriction, which would in from St. Lawrence, which he thought was the itself be respectable, and shield us from the evil only rightful one, if they did not make this re- that might justly be apprehended; or on the othstriction. Simply to adopt a 5 years' residence er hand, adopt the reasonable abstract princiwould be, mere trifling and a mockery; for a pies which had been laid down by the gentleman foreigner might land on our shores and in 5 years from St. Lawrence, which threw it open to all he would be eligible to be our Governor. Now, qualified electors. with the gentleman from Allegany (Mr. ANGEL) Mr. SHEPARD was astonished at the feeling he asked if they had any American feeling in manifested there-as much astonished now as that body? He was not ashamed to stand up he was gratified when the word "native" was there and contend for those principles that should stricken out by a vote unparalleled for its unacharacterize and distinguish us as Americans. nimity. He was astonished to hear the gentleHe had no desire to encourage the ambitious man enquire if there was any American feeling views of a foreigner who should come to our there, using the term in the most odious and inshores with aspirations for the chair of the chief vidious sense in which it could be applied. He magistrate of this state. Many formidable evils trusted in God there was no such American feelmight arise from this indulgence of foreigners. ing there; but he trusted there was that other Had the people of this state forgotten that we American feeling which is marked by pride and had a large protestant body within our bosom, gratification of belonging to a country embracing who were looking with great interest on this almost a whole continent in its circumferencequestion? And could the feelings and opinions a common country that has been made what it is of that large and respectable class be disregar- by the infusion of people from every nation on ged? It must be familiar to every member of the face of the earth-a country that owes its the Convention that there had been for some very independence and the blessings we here time going on in this country, a controversy that this day enjoy, among which is its capacity to however we might be disposed to look upon make and frame a free constitution, to the it, to a large portion of our people, was an im- assistance of foreigners. He repeated, he portant one indeed. He should not have called hoped there was none of that American feeling the attention of the Convention to this matter, of which he first spoke, because such feeling but for the remarkable and extraordinary indif- would cover this country with the shame and ference which he saw here manufactured on this disgrace and infamy of being wanting in the question. He hoped then the Convention would first principles of true gratitude. He was sorry give them reasonable restrictions and reasonable also to hear the gentleman from Richmond alqualifications, or abandon them altogether and lude to a large "protestant" body. This was adopt the theoretical principles, which he ad- not the place to censure in such terms as ought mitted were just in themselves, of the gentleman to be censured any allusion to such a body. In from St. Lawrence (Mr. RUSSELL,) and the gen. this country he had supposed it was the peculiar tleman from Otsego (Mr. CHATFIELD.) That and enduring glory of our people that every mat. would be right, but this would be a mockery.- was at liberty to bow down morning, noon, and There had been much talk in the Convention night, as he saw fit, and worship God according about reciprocity; but was there any reciprocity to the dictates of his own conscience or his own in this matter? In what manner were American prejudice, without the interference of any man citizens treated abroad? What right had we to The country had been disgraced enough already rely on the justice of the British government by this feeling. It had led to the burning ol 270,churches in Philadelphia, and to popular outbreaks in one or two other portions of the country; and now he had hoped it was dead and buried forever. He had hoped that gentlemen of.education and standing in the community would have been above bringing it forward on this floor. But the gentleman from Richmond told them further that a foreigner might be placed at the head of our army. And so he might if the people saw fit to put him there. And he would -ask if our arms would suffer-if our national power would be tarnished-if our national dignity would fail of a proper vindication, in such a case? Our armies have been led by foreign-.ers. We have had a Lafayette, a Steuben, and a Montgomery, and under such circumstances as conferred glory on the American armies. Then let him call the attention of the gentleman from Richmond to the fact that our armies have been led by Americans-some of them with great glory, but some of them with eternal infamy. Benedict Arnold led our army; and he would ask if we derived more glory then than when the command was in the hands of a generous foreigner? While the foreigner was true to the land of his adoption, did not these Arnolds -men born on the soil-forget or disregard all their early associations and the land of their birth, and seek to transfer the allegiance to a foreign potentate? He hoped this debate would not be continued longer. In any public body the utterance of such sentiments as they ha l heard there was a disgrace to our people; and they disgraced not only those who uttered but those who listened to them. 'He hoped such sentiments would never again be uttered there, for ever. Mr. HARRISON enquired if he was at liber. ty to reply to the gentleman from New York? The PRESIDENT replied that the gentleman from Richmond had the floor. Mr. HARRISON then would tell that young gentleman that he was an American. His ancestors and connexions had in various places in this country given demonstrations of their patriotism; and when "whigism" was really a distinctive quality he was a whig. Such reflections as had been indulged in by that young gentleman did not come with great propriety from him, towards one who stood up here to espouse that which he believed to be the true interest of the people of this state. He had no idea that his motives should be aspersed, and his principles, whether as a man or a politician, should thus be called in question. He was a republican and had always been so. He was a friend to republican institutions, and would go as far to support them as thatyoung gentleman. He was a friend also to aliens, and would concede to them every office to which they could reasonably aspire; but he had no idea that a foreigner should come here indulging aspirations towards the chief magistracy from the moment he landed. He had no idea that an ambitious foreigner should come here with the expectation that he should be entrusted with the chief power of the state, both civil and military. If to question the propriety of such a concession was to occasion the indulgence of such language and such insinuations as they had just heard, he must submit to the:eharge. But he had yetto learn that those prin. ciples which governed the wise and able men of the Convention of 1821 are to be deemed heretical, and to be considered as no longer republican. That section for which he was now contending was advocated in the Convention of 1821 by such men as Daniel D. Tompkins, General Root and Rufus King, who, though a federalist, was a man of undisputed patriotism. Was it then, he asked, heretical to contend for principles for which such men gave their voices and their votes? And was he for the expression of his opinion to be admonished by a man so much his junior? He would tell that young man that he was not thus to be restrained from the advocacy of those principles which were held by our revolutionary fathers, and have been entertained by the republicans of the country ever since. He had only a few words more to say, and it was only to reiterate an expression he had before used in speaking. For that purpose he begged permission to trespass a moment longer on the indulgence of the committee. He had made allusion to the Protestant interest; but he had no idea of arraying Protestants and Catholics against each other- It was merely from a respectful deference to a large body of citizens that he had spoken-a body that entertains great apprehensions on this ground, whether well or ill founded was not for him to say. And he appealed to the Convention if they should not respect so large and respectable a body, who though they could not be heard here,would, they might depend upon it, if the question were submitted to them, give expression to an opinion which would have some weight elsewhere. In conclusion he would again say, either adopt such distinctive qualifications as would stand out boldly, or abandon them altogether, and in. sert the proposition that every qualified elector shall be qualified to be Governor. Mr. MANN said it would be seen that they were getting back to Buncombe speeches on this section of the report of committee number five, and were beginning at just where they had left off, after so many days discussion. He had risen to move the previous question, but he was unwilling to do that as he knew it would cut off the amendments. (Cries-"oh no, no, no," and "question, question.") If they would take the question he would not make the motion. The yeas and nays were then taken on the a. mendment, and it was negatived-yeas 36, nay; 73. AYES-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H, Backus, Bascom, Brayton, Bull, D. D. Campbell; Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, Dubois, Gardner, Gebhard, Graham, Harrison, Hutchinson, Jordan, Miller, Nlch olas, Penniman, Richmond, St. John, Simmons, Smith, E. Spencer, Stow, Strong,Taggat,Tallmadge, Tuthill, Waterbury, Willard, Wood, A. Wright, Young-36. NAYS-Messrs. Archer, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brown, Bruce, Brundage, Burr, Cambreleng, Candee, Chatfield, Clark, Clyde, Conely, Cook, Cornell, Dodd, Dorlon, Flanders, Forsyth, Greene, Harri, Hart, Hawley, Hoffman, Hotehkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A. Huntington, E. Huntington, Hyde, Jones, Kemble, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland, Loomis, Mann, MoNitt, Maxwell,. orris, Murphy, Nellis, Nicoll, O'Conor, Parish, Pat.,reisn, towers, President, Rhoades, Riker, Russell, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard Stanton, Stetson, Swackhamer, Taft, J. J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Tilden. Townsend, Vache, Van Schoonhoven, Warren, Whlte, Witbeck, Worden, Yawger, Youngs-73. Mr. BASCOM moved to add after the words "unless he shall have been absent during that 271 time on public business of the U. S., or of this state" the words "or on business of his own." Mr. STETSON suggested that the branch of the sentence should be stricken out which Mr. BASCOM proposed to amend. Mr. BASCOM withdrew his motion to enable the gentleman from Clinton to move that amendment. Mr. STETSON made the motion accordingly and it was agreed to. Mr. JONES desired to have a vote on a mo. tion which he had moved in committee of the whole. He therefore moved to strike out the words "who shall not have been five years a resident within the state" together with the words "next preceding his election," which had been introduced on the motion of Mr. ANGEL after the words "five years." After a few words from Mr. DANA and Mr. RUSSELL, Mr. JORDAN rose to point out the position in which it would leave us if the amendment should prevail. The laws of naturalization are beyond the power of the government of this state. The power to pass such laws was vested in the Congress of the United States, and it might so happen that a law might be passed that a foreigner might be naturalized in sixty days or six hours after he landed from shipboard,and thus he would at once become eligible to the office of Governor. He knew gentlemen would say it would be folly to vote for such a person, and on that point he had no disposition to say anything, for it had already been much talked about. He would however say that he had some respect for state rights and the sovereignty of the state, and as the rule requiring a five years residence before naturalization might be changed by Congress, he thought it would be suicidal to strike out the provision which required a five years residence within the state. Mr. RUSSELL would not vote for a foreigner unless under extraordinary circumstances, who had not been five years a resident in the state, nor one who was under thirty years of age; and as a general rule he would insist on having a " native;" but while he judged for himself, he would extend the same right to his constituents to judge for themselves. He desired the people to be left unshackled. Mr. JONES called for the yeas and nays, and they were ordered, and being taken, resulted thus-yeas 44, nays 66, as follows:AYES-Messrs. Archer, Bascom, Bergen, Bowdish, Brown, Burr, Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr., Chatfield, Clark, Cook, Cornell, Danforth, Dodd, Dorlon, Flanders, Harris, Harrison, Hart, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Jones, Kernan, Loomis, Mann, Murphy, Nellis, O'Conor,Patterson, Powers, Russell,Shepard, Stetson, Swack. hamer, Taft, W. Taylor, Tilden, Townsend, Vache, Van Schoonhoven, Warren, White, Witbeck, Worden -44 NOES-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, Bonck, Brayton, Bruce, Brundage, Bull, D. D. Campbell, Candee, Conely,Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana. Dubois, Forsyth, Gardner, Gebhard, Graham, Hawley, Hoffman, Hunter, A. Huntington E. Huntington, Hutch. inson, Hyde. Jordan, Kemble, Kingsley, Kirkland, McNitt, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Nicholas, Nicoll,Parish, Penniman, President, Rhoadps, Richmond, Riker, St. John, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Simmons, Smith, E Spencer, Stanton, Stow, Strong, Taggart, Tallmadge, J J. Talor, Tuthill, Willard, Waterbury, Wood, A. Wright, Yawger, Young, Youngs-66. The section now stood as follows: No persons except a citizen of the Unitett States shall be eligible to the office of Governor; nor shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained the age of 30 years, and who shall not have been five years next preceding his election President within this state. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to strike out the whole section and insert as follows:Every qualified elector of this stEite shall be eligible to the office of Governor. Mr. WORDEN expressed his gratification with the amendment of the gentlemen from Ot. sego, inasmuch as it would bring them to a di. rect vote on a question which had taken them so much time to discuss. He however asked that gentlemen to qualify its language. He suggest. ed the following as a substitute:The qualified electors of the state are hereby decla. rO competent to, and may in the manner prescribed in this artic le, elect any one of their number Governor of this state. Mr. CHATFIELD cheerfully accepted the substitute, and called for the yeas, and nays thereon, which were ordered. Mr. CHATFIELD, to obviate some objections which had been raised-(one being an objection by Mr. RHOADES, that Mr. HOFFMAN would be cut off from being a candidate for the Governorship, if this qualification were retained, in.. asmuch as he had changed his residence fromHerkimer county to New-York)-said he would amend by adding the words, 4 'and no person shall become ineligible in consequence ol- removing from one part of the state to another"(cries of "oh no, withdraw it".) Mr. C. said if his friend from Herkimer desired to be consi&ered a candidate for Governor, he would press-, his motion. (Renewed cries of "oh, no.") Mr.C. then withdrew his amendment. Mr. LOOMIS said this amendment was betteradapted to another part of their business than to., the present section. He also added that it seem- - ed rather ad captandum than to desire to express4 in the Article the restrictions they intended to.. impose on that. subject. He then proceeded to,, assert the- right of the Convention to impose re. — strictions for approval by the people. He also,,, pointed out the mode of electing Governors, the! people limiting themselves to the candidates nominated by the delegates they have appointed", for the purpose of selection, and said the question was between the Convention and the convention to nominate candidates. The qualifica — tions which the constitution might prescribe, he, said were analogous to the rules this Convention, laiddownforitsownguidan'ee. lnthisviewof the case he should vote against the proposition. Mr - WORDEN, on the suggestion of some gentlemen, agreed to substitute the words " in, this constitution" for the word "Article." Mr. SIMMONS opposed the amendment. He opposed it because it was ultraism.,-and also be. - caupe it was not true. Mr. CHATFIELD preferred upon reflection his own a, mendment to the substitute of thegentleman from Ontario, Mr. WORDEN then felt compelled by parlia. mentary eourtesy to withdraw his substitute. Mr. SHEPARD hoped not. Mr. CHATFIELD then renewed his amend.. meat. which he'nreferred because it wag a dt'&%, ~ 2. No person, except a citizen of the United States, shall be eligible to the office of Governor; nor shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained the age of 30 years, and who shall not have been five years next preceding his election, President within this state. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to strike out the whole section and insert as follows:Every qualified elector of this state shall be eligible to the office of Governor. Mr. WORDEN expressed his gratification with the amendment of the gentlemen from Ot. sego, inasmuch as it would bring them to a direct vote on a question which had taken them so much time to discuss. He however asked that gentlemen to qualify its language. He suggest. ed the following as a substitute:The qualified electors of the state are hereby decla. red competent to, and may in the manner prescribed in this article, elect any one of their number Governor of this state. Mr. CHATFIELD cheerfully accepted the substitute, and called for the yeas and nays thereon, which were ordered. Mr. CHATFIELD, to obviate some objections which had been raised-(one being an objection by Mr. RHOADES, that Mr. HOFFMAN would be cut off from being a candidate for the Governorship, if this qualification were retained, in. asmuch as he had changed his residence from Herkimer county to New-York)-said he would amend by adding the words, " and no person shall become ineligible in consequence of removing from one part of the state to another"(cries of "oh no, withdraw it".) Mr. C. said if his friend from Herkimer desired to be considered a candidate for Governor, he would presshis motion. (Renewed cries of "oh, no.") Mr.. C. then withdrew his amendment. Mr. LOOMIS said this amendment was betteradapted to another part of their business than to, the present section. He also added that it seemed rather ad captandum than to desire to express4 in the Article the restrictions they intended to. impose on that subject. He then proceeded to, assert the right of the Convention to impose re — strictions for approval by the people. He also, pointed out the mode of electing Governors, the: people limiting themselves to the candidates nominated by the delegates they have appointed, for the purpose of selection, and said the question was between the Convention and the convention to nominate candidates. The qualifica — tions which the constitution might prescribe, he said were analogous to the rules this Convention laid down for its own guidance. In this view of the case he should vote against the proposition. Mr WORDEN, on the suggestion of some gentlemen, agreed to substitute the words "in. this constitution" for the word "Article." Mr. SIMMONS opposed the amendment. ~He opposed it because it was ultraism. and also be. cause it was not true. Mr. CHATFIELD preferred upon reflection his own amendment to the substitute of the gentleman from Ontario Mr. WORDEN then felt compelled by parliamentary courtesy to withdraw his substitute. Mr. SHEPARD hoped not. Mr. CHATFIELD then renewed his amend.ment, which he preferred because it was a di* 272 tinct affirmative proposition. In the course of some remarks which he made in support of his amendment he alluded to Mr. SIMMONS' denunciation of Mr. WORDEN's proposition as ultraism. He said almost every reform suggested had been combatted on the same ground, but he was sorry the gentleman from Essex had not discovered that these ultra reforms were darling measures of the people. He warned the gentleman from Essex that the men who took this high federal ground were digging their own graves, and that if the gentleman from Essex intended to stand with the people he must act and go with the people. Mr. STETSON urged that this was a matter of very little importance. So long as we left to the people the higher and greater qualifications of integrity and capacity, it was scarcely worth while to insist on these minor qualifications of age and residence. They were necessarily included in the greater. Mr. R. CAMPBELL protested against a fur. ther consumption of time on this question. Gentlemen were assuming a great deal who supposed that they could instruct the Convention in regard to it. It was high time we stopped talk. ing and went to work. Mr. JORDAN urged that this question had been distinctly settled this morning-and he knew of no reason why the Convention should change its judgment, unless it was the maledic. tions of the gentleman from Otsego (Mr. CHATFIELD) warning his political friends how they voted against this amendment, and his opponents that they were digging their graves here if they dared vote against it. Mr. J. said these bugbears had no terrors for him. He had dug his own political grave some 15 years ago, by re. tiring voluntarily from public life. And he trusted that these maledictions from the would be leader of the responsible majority here,would not frighten members into a change of their recorded and honest sentiments. For one he was willing to place himself before this people on these restrictions of 30 years of age and 5 years residence, and to have it understood that in voting against this amendment he voted for those restrictions. Mr. TALLMADGE thought the proper motion would be a motion to reconsider, the Convention having decided to retain these qualifications. Now, he went as far in trusting the people as any Jacobin or Radical. But that was not the question. It was whether it would not be expedient and prudent to guard the people themselves against being overawed or dragooned into the support of candidates in turbulent times, by an actual array of military force. At the proper time, he gave notice that he should move to amend, so as provide, in addition to these qutalifications of age and residence, that no per. son shall be eligible who is not a natural born citizen, or who shall not be a citizen at the time of the adoption of this constitution. Mr. BRUNDAGE said he desired to explain an apparent inconsistency. He had voted against retaining this qualification of age, not so much because he thought it important whether it was retained or not; but because he thought all these matters would be attended to by the people, whether their attention was specially called to it or not, in the Constitution. At the same time, he had received information from home, which led him to believe that some importance was attached to these restrictions by his constituents; and though his own opinion was different, he felt bound to carry out what he supposed was their wish, and should vote accordingly for this qualification of five years' residence. Mr.LOOMIS said he should prefer this amend. ment to the section as it stood, but for the fact that it would exclude electors who had changed their residence five months before an election. Mr. CHATFIELD suggested that if the word qualified was struck out, it would relieve it of that diffiulty. Mr. LOOMIS thought not. The word qualified was mere surplusage. Mr CHATFIELD replied that the temporary loss of one's vote, at a single election, by a change of residence, did not make him any the less an elector. Mr. LOOMIS thought there might be a doubt about this. But Mr. L. did not regard this amendment as material, except that it seemed to harmonize with the genius of our government. Still the objection, he mentioned, was a serious one. Mr. W. TAYLOR suggested as a modification, his proposition, offered in committee of the whole-to say, every person who had the qualifications of an elector, save those of county and town residence. Mr. CHATFIELD preferred to add that no change of residence within this state, should disqualify. Mr. BRUCE opposed the amendment. He could not vote for it without overturning the vote he had already given. Nor did he believe that the convention were prepared, after having solemnly determined to retain these qualifications, to turn round and obliterate them, under the appeals that had been made to them. He voted against the qualification of age-but, the majority being decided against him, he bowed to the decision with perfect cheerfulness; and he believed the convention ought to adhere to its decision. Mr. R. CAMPBELL here moved the previous question. but Under'intimations from all quarters that there would be no more debate, waived it, and Mr. CHATFIELD'S motion to amend was negatived-ayes 43, nays 71, as follows: AYES-Messrs. Archer, Bascom, Bergen, Bowdish, Brown, Burr, Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr., Chatfield, Cook Cornell, Danforth, Dodd, Dorlon, Flanders, Harris, Hart, Hunt, Jones, Kernan, Loomis, Mann, Murphy, Nellis, O'Conor, Patterson, Powers, Russell, Shepard, Stephens, Stetson, Swackhamer, Taft, W. Taylor, Tilden. Townsend, Vache, Van Schoonhoven, Warren, White, Witbeck, Worden, W. B. Wiight-43. NAYS-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, Bouck, Brayton, Bruce, Brundage, Bull, D. D. Campbell, Candee, Clark, Clyde, Conely, Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, Dubois, Forsyth, Gardner, Gebhard, Graham, Greene, Harrison, Hawley, Hoffman, Hotchkiss, Hunter, A. Huntington, E. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordant Kemble, Kingsley, Kirkland, Mc. Nitt, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Nicholas, Nicoll, Parish, Penniman, President, Rhoades, Richmond, Riker, Ruggles, St. John, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Simmons, Smith, E. Spencer, Stanton, Stow, Strong Taggart, Tallmadge J J. Taylor, Tuthill, Waterbury Willard, Wood, A. Wright, Yawger, Young, Youngs71. 273 Mr. BRUNDAGE offered the following, as a substitute for the section:Every citizen who has been a resident of this state for five years next preceding the election, unless absent during that time on public business of this state, or the United States, shall be eligible to the office of Governor. Mr. RICHMOND remarked that we had already voted on that three times. The amendment was lost. Mr.TALLMADGE offered the following sub. stitute:No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of this state at the time of the adoption of this constitution, shall be eligible to the office of Governor; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of 30 years, and been five years next preceding, a resident within this state. This amendment was lost. Mr. SHEPARD moved to strike out and insert: r" The electors of this state are competent to, and may elect any one of their number to the office of Governor; and no elector shall be rendered ineligible to such office try any change of residence in this state." Mr. RICHMOND remarked that we had voted on that four times this morning. Mr. CHATFIELD asked for the ayes and noes on the amendment, and they were ordered. Mr. TILDEN regarded these proceedings as most egregious trifling. He hoped the vote on this proposition would evince the sense of the convention in regard to it. Mr. LOOMIS asked if it was in order. The PRESIDENT ruled that the proposition being substantially that of the gentleman from Otsego, was not in order. Mr. STOW moved to insert after the word state:"( fut no person shall be deemed to have lost his residence by reason of having been absent during that time on business of this state or of the United States.' The PRESIDENT ruled that this was substantially what had been struck out-and could only be reinserted by a motion to reconsider. Mr. STOW moved a reconsideration for that purpose-which motion, under the rule,lies over. The second second was then adopted. The third section was then read, as follows:~ 3 The governor and lieutenant-governor shall be e.ected at the times and places of choosing members of the legislature. The persons respectively having the highest number of votes for governor and lieutenantgovernor, shall be elected; but in case two or more shall have an equal and the highest number of votes for governor, or for lieutenant-governor, the two houses of the legislature shall, by joint ballot, choose one of the said persons so having an equal and the highest number of votes for governor or lieutenant-governor. Mr. SIMMONS offered the following. — Striks out all after the word legislature, in the 2nd line, and insert-" The persons respectively having a majority of all the votes given respectively for Governor and Lieut. Governor, shall be elected:-but in case no two persons shall have received respectively a majority of votes, the two houses of the legislature at its next annual session, shall forthwith proceed to choose by ballot a Governor and Lieut. Governor, from all the persons voted for by the people; and if no choice is made upon the first ballot, the two houses in joint bal lot, shall continue to ballot, until a choice is made, rejecting, after each such successive balloting, all votes given in the next balloting for the two persons receiving respectively the lowest number of votes by the people and not before rejected." Mr. SIMMONS insisted that the principle of representative government required that the ma1S jority rule should be practicallyadopted and put in torce. The tendency of this plurality principle was to keep up a sort of triangular, if not multiangular state of parties, very much to the public detriment. He had lived 30 years in the state, and a large portion of the time under a minority Governor. If that was democracyand it would seem from the learned gentleman from Otsego, it had got narrowed down to very narrow limits-true democracy had-the prospect was that we should have something like an infinite divisibility of parties. Here would be the abolitionists, the old and new Hunkers, the Barnburners old and new-the Hartford conventionists too would be divided into two sections -for they did not all agree on that floor-and he should really like to have something of a respectable faction to govern the state, if we must be governed by one. It had been suggested that he had omitted the anti-renters. He begged pardon. But they were too large perhaps to be considered a faction. They would hold the balance of power shortly. Already the state was divided into four or five factions-and in. stead of that wholesome effect which the exis. tence of two parties was calculated to produce, the tendency was to encourage the getting up of new issues or hobbies under which to divide up and destroy the two parties, and make our elections a mere scramble for office. He might be entirely alone in this vote. But that was of no consequence to him. For notwithstanding the salutary warning of the gentleman from Otsego, he was inclined to think that old Moriah and some other towns in his county, would take care of him. It was like the late Mr.Van Rensselaer of this city, who when asked to head a subscription for a church or some such object, generally told the applicants first to get all they could from others, and then to draw on him for the balance. Such was old Moriah. [A laugh.] Mr. S.was for reform, and he hoped to see the professed friends of true democracy and the majority principle coming to his aid in this amendment. He was for giving the control to the majoritynot to a faction or a plurality. X Mr. A. W. YOUNG briefly urged that there had been discussion enough on this article and that it was time the details had been settled. Mr. SIMMONS' amendment was lost. The third section was then adopted. The fourth section was then read as follows:~ 4. The governor shall be commander-in-chief of the military and naval forces of the state. He shall have power to convene the legislature, (or the Senate only,) on extraordinary occasions. He shallcomrnunicate by message, to the legislature at every session, the condition of the state, and recommend such matters to them as he shall judge expedient. He shall transact all necessary business with the officers of government, civil and military. He shall expedite all such measures as may be resolved upon by the legislature, and shall take care that toe laws are faithfully executed. He shall, at stated times, receive for his services, a compensation to be established by law, which shall neither be increased nor diminished after his election and during his eontinuance in officc. Mr. WOOD moved to add, "But in no case shall he receive more than q4,000 annually " The proposition was negatived. Mr. TALLMADGE moved to strike out "con. tinuance in office, and insert "term of office"saying that the word continuance might imply 274 the continuance of a Governor in office for a se- proposed to give to the section. cond or third term. Mr. T's amendment was lost, and the fourth Mr. STETSON said these words were insert- section was adopted. ed at his instance, and avowedly for the pur- Adjourned to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. pose of avoiding the construction the gentleman SATURDAY, JULY IS. Prayer by the Rev. J. KNAPP. rious necessity demanded that these debates VOLUNTARY RESTRICTION OF DEBATE. should be curtailed. He knew not the motives Mr. BURR offered the following resolution:- of gentlemen in using the arguments they did; Resolved, That for the future the members of this but it was a fact that on any small proposition Convention will voluntarily restrict themselves in however trivial, they had four or five eloquent speaking, so that on any question, no member will oc- speeches on each side, pouring on the Convencupy more than fifteen minutes. tion a flood of argument, to establish what to Mr. B. said his object was indicated by him looked plain, and what he could understand his resolution; and he appealed to the gentle. by simply reading it. Now did the eloquent men composing the Convention, if there was gentlemen who belonged to the Convention supnot a propriety, nay a stern necessity, to pur. pose that it was necessary lor them to pour on sue the course pointed out. The Convention the lay members of the Convention such torrents commenced on the 1st of June; this day was the of argument in order to enlighten their minds, 18th of July; they had therefore spent 48 days, and show them the import and meaning of those from which, if 6 Sabbaths were deducted, 42 sections? If theydo,he mustbe permitted to say working days remained. Again, deduct the 3 they were mistaken. He had become acquaintholydays which they had appropriated, and there ed with a large number of gentlemen who, like were 39 days left during which they had been at himself, were plain farmers, yet he ventured to work. Of that number 20 days were spent in say not one amongst them needed half the arguarranging the preliminaries of their business, ment that had been used to convince them what and 19 were consumed in debating, mostly the I was the proper course for them to take on the celebrated report of committee number five. — questions that came before them. Now would They had passed upon that report in committee; not the gentlemen who are in the habit of debatof the whole, and yesterday they took it up in ing these questions, and over debating themthe house; they spent the whole day upon it would they not conform to some rule as intiand were busily employed till they reached the mated by this resolution? If the question were fourth section, which is now under considera- put from the Chair whether they had not had tion. There were still seven sections to consi- too much debating thus far, he ventured to say der, and whether they were to finish it to-day theoe would be one universal response, and that was problematical. They might not; but he response would be " aye." It wasin the mouth would assume, if they pleased, that it would i of every man, every member of the Convention, be disposed of. Now he took it for granted that that they took up too much time in debating. was not more than one-eighteenth part of what But he would not enlarge lest he might be acthey had to do. He doubted if it was of the cused of taking up more than his share of time. average length of the reports that were to come; Mr. NICOLL said the getleman's resolution but allowing it to be so, if they continued tola. was worthy of approval. It was really time bor until the 1st of October and beyond that, he I that they should do something; but with all due verily believed they could not go; they had three respect, he suggested if the resolution was not and two-third days for the consideration of impracticable. The gentleman must know that each report. Now he came not here to make a great many subjects ought to be explained speeches. His constituents were not overhaul- which could not be done in speeches of fifteen ing the daily reports for his doings and his speech- minutes. He hoped therefore that the Convenes. They did not expect him to come here for tion would be satisfied with the object of the that purpose. They knew his inability to shew mover, and lay the resolution on the table. He off in that manner. They knew he made no hoped the necessary effect would be produced, pretensions to commanding eloquence. But they and that the debate would be curtailed; but he believed that he possessed some common sense- repeated there could not be such a restriction as in a small degree at least. They believed he had that which the gentleman proposed. He hoped some business talent-that he was capable of ta- the gentleman would withdraw his resolution. king up a paper like the Article before them, of It was sufficient for the Convention to underreading its sections, and ofexamining and under stan the sentiments of the lay members; and standing them for himself. He belived they if the gentleman did not withdraw it, he should were not mistaken. He believed he had that move to lay it on the table. talent. He had listened during the time they Mr. SWACKHAMER suggested that it should had been in session there to a great deal of elo- be referred to the committee on rules. quence. By many speeches he had been edi- Mr. NICOLL concurred in that view and fled; by others he had been instructed and de- hoped it would go to the committee on rules. lighted; nor would he complain if he were longer Mr. BURR said perhaps his resolution had to sit and listen to these streamsof eloquence,if answered the purpose; he would, therefore he believed they had the time to spare. But as withdraw it he remarked before, it seemed to him an impe. It was withdrawn accordingly. 275 ORDER OF BUSINESS. Mr. LOOMIS offered the following resolution: Resolved, That it is the duty of the Convention to proceed, without delay, to the consideration of the restrictions proper to be established against special legislation, and the creation of public debt, and the reorganization of the legislature, and judicial departments of the government. Mr. L. said he felt constrained to call the attention of the Convention to the order of its business. He did so, more especially, in consequence of the unceremonious manner in which the report of the select committee was yesterday laid on the table, on the motion of the gentleman from Oneida (Mr. KIRKLAND,) after an argument from him without hearing the other side. It appeared to him that the Convention must be satisfied that it was called for the purpose of discussing and settling certain great and important questions-that there were particular and prominent subjects before the people, which induced them to call this Convention together, among which, were those subjects that were likely to come up first for consideration. The length of time that had elapsed was now seven weeks-half the time, perhaps, that ought to be spent on the whole subject-and yet they had not touched any one of those questions which the Convention was called to consider. The powers and duties of the Executive, so far as they have been settled in the debate which they had been going through for the last few weeks, were not subjects agitated and brought to the public attention, and might have been left to the last. The subject which would come up next, if the Convention should fail to establish an order, was one to which the public attention had not been called and yet it was a subject that would be fruitful of debate, more than any other-he alluded to the bill of rights. That was the next in order-(cries of " Oh no, that's a mistake.") Now who ever heard as an inducement to call this Convention, any lack of decla. ration on that subject? It was not fair, then, when they were called for certain great and important objects, to start their business with those of less importance, to which the public attention has not been called. He thought it was time-and in that opinion he hoped the Convention would concur-to take up those subjects to which public attention had been called. The gentleman from Oneida yesterday in moving to lay the report on the table, after making a speech himself, did it under color that it would take up time to consider it Take up time to settle the order of business, after taking up three weeks on questions for which the Convention was not called together! He hoped the resolution would be adopted, and then these questions of less importance could be discussed, if they pleased, after they had got through the rest. It was with this view a few days ago he felt constrained-and he did so with the advice of many members here-to offer his resolution to settle the order of business. He had no particular choice as to precedence, except to take up first the great subjects which have agitated the public mind-those subjects on which delegated power has been abused, and in which we have lacked constitutional provisions-and he should not have the slightest feeling if the Convention should establish any other order than that reported by the special committee. He had felt bound to offer this resolution, that he might submit these remarks on this question, for in callink for the order of business lie should not have been at liberty to do so; and he was free to say that his object was to take up this ques. tion this morning and dispose of it. They should probably to-day get through the report of the committee of the whole, now before the Con. vention, and proceed to the next subject, and he deemed it important to settle what shall be the order, and what shall be the next subject. He hoped there would be no serious debate on this question of priority of business. It did not be. come him, with that view to state the reasons why he had placed them in the order in which they stood in the resolution, but he would do so if it were desired. Mr. KIRKLAND said the gentleman from Herkimer had announced his intention in offer. ing this resolution to be to hang a speech upoa it. Now they could not spare time for these discussions. This resolution did not propose any mode of action. It only says abstractedly that so and so should be done. But it was competent for the members to decide as the questions arose what should be the order of business with. out prescribing it in advance. He desired to leave things according to their natural course, and the house could pass upon them without much discussion; but if they attempted to pre. scribe an inflexible rule, the whole day would be consumed in discussing the several propositions. The resolution as it stands, would tend to no practical result; it advises and recommends no particular action recommending simply an abstract proposition, and he apprehended they could not properly spend their time on proposi. tions that were merely abstract, and leading to no result. He again, as yesterday, moved to lay the resolution on the table. Mr WARD desired the gentleman from Onei. da to withdraw thatmotion to enable him to say a word or two. Mr. KIRKLAND withdrew it accordingly. Mr. WARD said he had but one word to say. They had no rule, it was well known, respect. ing the order of' business, and therefore the aen. tleman from Herkimer did right in presenting the resolution which had been laid on the table, to establish what the order should be. How was it in all other legislative bodies? It was that a general order was adopted, upon which every bill as reported was entered, and they were taken up in their order. In this Convention there was no such general order. It was therefore important that some rule#should be adopted in regard to it, rather than leave the subject to be taken up at the wish of any one man. He desired then that it should be consid. ered and that this resolution would not be laid on the table. They had no desire to discuss it; none at all; but it was wise and prudent that they should establish some rule. Mr. TALLMADGE said they could not adopt, the order which had been reported, for several of the great committees ha.4 not yet reported.There were other reports already made, that were of more importance than some of" those to which the gentleman from Herkimer wished to give preference. He enumerated several ques. that reported by the special committee. He had felt bound to offer this resolution, that he might submit these remarks on this question, for in calling for the order of business he should not have been at liberty to do so; and he was free to say that his object was to take up this question this morning and dispose of it. They should probably to-day get through the report of the committee of the whole, now before the Convention, and proceed to the next subject, and he deemed it important to settle what shall be the order, and what shall be the next subject. He hoped there would be no serious debate on this question of priority of business. It did not become him, with that view to state the reasons why he had placed them in the order in which they stood in the resolution, but he would do so if it were desired. Mr. KIRKLAND said the gentleman from Herkimer had announced his intention in offer. ing this resolution to be to hang a speech upon it. Now they could not spare time for these discussions. This resolution did not propose any mode of action. It only says abstractedly that so and so should be done. But it was competent for the members to decide as the questions arose what should be the order of business without prescribing it in advance. He desired to leave things according to their natural course, and the house could pass upon them without much discussion; but if they attempted to prescribe an inflexible rule, the whole day would be consumed in discussing the several propositions. The resolution as it stands, would tend to no practical result; it advises and recommends no particular action, recommending simply an abstract proposition, and he apprehended they could not properly spend their time on propositions that were merely abstract, and leading to no result. He again, as yesterday, moved to lay the resolution on the table. Mr WARD desired the gentleman from Onei. da to withdraw thatmotion to enable him to say a word or two. Mr. KIRKLAND withdrew it accordingly. Mr. WARD said he had but one word to say. They had no rule, it was well known, respecting the order of business, and therefore the gen. tleman from Herkimer did right in presenting the resolution which had been laid on the table to establish what the order should be. How was it in all other legislative bodies? It was that a general order was adopted, upon which every bill as reported was entered, and they were taken up in their order. In this Convention there was no such general order. It was therefore important that some ruletshould be adopted in regard to it, rafier than leave the subject to be taken up at the wish of any one man. He desired then that it should be considered and that this resolution would not be laid on the table. They had no desire to discuss it; none at all; but it was wise and prudent that they should establish some rule. Mr. TALLMADGE said they could not adopt the order which had been reported, for several of the great committees had not yet reported.There were other reports already made, that were of more importance than some of those to which the gentleman from Herkimer wished to give preference. He enumerated several ques. $ 276 tions of great importance, wnich required early attention, amongst which was the one embracing the rights of married women, and those peculiar cases of oppression in which witnesses are incarcerated in jail, to appear against felons, while those very felons, by the aid of their friends, have obtained bail, and are running at large. He ventured to say that the Convention would be astonished when the developments were all made on this subject. He renewed the motion to lay on the table. The motion prevailed to lay on the table-49 voting in the affirmative and 32 in the negative. Mr. LOOMIS then called for the consideration of the report of the select committee, which was laid on the table yesterday, and on that he called for the yeas and nays. The yeas and nays were ordered, and resulted thus-yeas 47, nays 57, as follows: AYES-Messrs. Angel, Brundage, Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr., Clyde, Cornell, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforth1 Dorlon, Greene, Harrison, Hart, Hoffman. A. Huntington, Hutchinson, Jones, Jordan, Kemble, Kernan, Kingsley, Loomis, Mann, McNitt, Maxwell, Morris, Nellis, Nicoll, Powers, President, Rhoades, Ruggles, Russfll, Salisbury, Sears, Sheldon, E, Spencer, Stephens, Stetson, Taft, W. Taylor. Tuthill, Ward, White, Witbeck, Wood, Youngs-47. NOES-Messrs. Archer, Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, Bascom, Bouck, Bowdish, Brayton, Brown, Bruce, Bull, Burr, D. D. Campbell, Candee, Chatfield, Conely, Cook, Crooker, Dubois, Flanders, Gardner, Gebhard, Harris, Hawley, Hotchkiss, E. Huntington, Hyde, Kirkland, Miller, Murphy, Nicholas, O'Conor, Parish, Patterson, Penniman, Richmond, Riker, St. John, Shaver, Shaw, Shepard. Simmons, Smith, Stanton, Stow, Swackhamer, Taggart, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor Van Schoonhoven, Warren, Waterbury, Willard, Worden; A.Wright, W.B.Wright, Yawgcr, Young -57. So the Convention refused to consider the report. RESOLUTION DAY. Mr. BROWN offered the following resolution:Resolved, That resolutions except such as shall be reported from standing or select committees, shall be offered on Monday morning of each week, and at no other time. A conversation ensued on the propriety of a. dopting this resolution to save the time that was consumed daily in the discussion of resolutions offered on individual responsibility, many of which were of no earthly utility. In the discussion Messrs. BROWN, CHATFIELD, BASCOM, HOFFMAN, SALISBURY and DANFORTH took part. The resolution was then referred to the committee on rules. The PRESIDENT presented to the Convention a communication from Mr. Wm. Paxton Hallett of New York, respecting the complaint made by Mr. Burtis Skidmore of his official conduct, into which he invited a rigid investigation. It was referred to the committee on the judiciary. EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention then resumed the unfinished business of yesterday, being the report of the committee of the whole of the article on the powers and duties of the Executive. The fourth section being under consideration, Mr. FLANDERS said it had been suggested to him that this section was not comprehensive enough. He quoted from other constitutions to show how this matter was received in other states, and then moved to amend by adding in the second line, after the words 'the Governor shall be commander in chief of the military and naval forces of the state," the words "except when they shall be called into the actual service of the United States"-and after the word "forces" in the second line, the words "and of the militia." Mr. SALISBURY objected to the amendment on the ground that the section itself had been approved and passed over on Friday. Mr. PATTERSON objected to the amend. ment, because he thought the section was better as it stands. When our military and naval forces should be called into the service of the United States was the very time when he wished them to be commanded by our own Governor, which this amendment would prevent. Mr. WARD supported the amendment. The term admiral of the navy was properly in the constitution of 1777, because being an independent colony at that time, we were entitled to have both our own land and naval forces; but subsequently all such power was conferred on the U. S. government. The Governor is now commander in-chief of our militia; but a small portion of our militia might be called into the general service and the Governor could not then be their commander-in-chief, that power being vested in the President of the United States.The amendment, therefore, was necessary to obviate any difficulty that might occur. Mr. BROWN thought the honorable chair. man of the military committee entirely mistaken, and that the section was correct as it stood, as in any such event the Governor must necessarily hold his command in subordination to the President Mr. FLANDERS said he had renewed the amendment in deference to the opinion of others, and contrary to his own. He now withdrew the amendment. Mr. WARD renewed it. Mr. SIMMONS said it struck him the phraseology of the fourth section was wrong, and would be unconstitutional without the amend. ment or something equivalent to it. He should prefer to have the word " militia" omitted, but he would rather have it there than lose the whole amendment. What, he inquired,was the meaning of the words " commander.in-chief?" If the organic law of this state declared the Governor to be commander-in-chief of the forces of the state, hbsolutely and unqualifiedly, without distinction of time, whether of war or peace, then the Governor was so as far as the constitution could make him so; and the only way he could cease to be commender-in-chief and subordinate to the President, in conformity to the United States constitution, was by construction. He thought the language of the constitution should be plain and unambiguous. Mr. O'CONOR advocated the amendment. By the U. S. constitution, the President is the commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states when called into th? actual service of the United States, and he contended there could not be two commanders-in-chief. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN thought the sec. tion was correct without the amendment. The 277 Governor would be commander-in-chief in the dous a power. He understood the applications state, but when the militia were called into the for pardon amounted to 600 per annum. service of the United States they become United Mr. TILDEN said they were often 800 or States troops, and would be under the command 1,000. of the President. Mr. CROOKER said if that was so and they Mr. W. TAYLOR and Mr. CONELY contin- were made upon petition, affidavit,or statement, ued the discussion. much -time would be occupied in their consideThe amendment was then negatived, and the ration, and in the correspondence necessarily at. fourth section was adopted. tendant thereon. He thought the Governor The fifth section was then read as follows:- should be greatly relieved from the burden of 65. The governor shall have power to grant re. that duty, or that he should be controlled, or preives and pardons after conviction for all offences guided or aided therein, by some other tribunal. except treason and cases of impeachment. He may Some conversation ensued in relation to the commute sentence of death to imprisonment in a state construction of the sentence, in which part was prison for life. He may grant pardons upon such con- taken by Messrs. TILDEN STETSON, ditions and with such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper. Upon convictions for treason, he CROOKER, CHATFIELD, and KIRKLAND. shall have power to suspend the sentence until the case Messrs. VAN SCHOONHOVEN and TAGshall be reported to the legislature at its next meetin GART then continued the debate on the amend. He shall in his annual message communicate to the legislature each such case of reprieve, commutation ment. and pardon granted by him since his next previous an- Mr. CHATFIELD proposed to amend so as nual message, stating the name of the convict, the to retain the section down to the word limitacrime of which he was convicted, the sentence and its tions, in the 4th line, and then substitute the date, and the date of the commutation, pardon or re- words "as my be prescribed by law," for the words " as he may think proper." Mr. SHEPARD moved to amend by inserting Mr. HOFFMAN was in favor of the amendthe word " commutations" in the first line, after ment of the gentleman from Otsego. He was the words " the Governor shall have power to not one who believed that the interests of socie. grant reprieves"-and to strike out the words in ty required the abolition of capital punishment. the 3d, 4th, 5th and 6th lines as follows:-" He One objection to the abolition of capital punishmay commute sentence of death to imprisonment ment, was the danger that there would be of the in a state prison for life. He may grant par. murderer again being turned loose on society to dons upon such conditions, and with such re- endanger the security of life. It had been said, strictions and limitations as he may think " I would go with you and vote with you, if I proper." could feel assured that the murderer, guilty of Mr. HOFFMAN thought the amendment as blood, shall be confined for life,without the powwell as the entire section deserved some consid. er of commutation." If the amendment to the eration, inasmuch as he doubted if the Conven- amendment, submitted by the gentleman from tion really designed to confer on the Governor Otsego, were adopted, the Governor would have all the authority without any power on the part power to commute for imprisonment for life, of the legislature to interpose to modify it by leaving power with the legislature to make all law. other regulations. But if power were given to Mr. O'CONOR suggested a modification of the Governor to turn loose a convicted murderthe amendment, viz: to strike out the words- er, society would have no security, and they "he may commute sentence of death to impris. must take arms to defend themselves. onment in a state prison for life. He may grant Mr. SIMMONS opposed the amendment of the pardons." gentleman from Otsego, but was in favor of the Mr. SHEPARD accepted the modification. amendment of the gentleman from New-York. Mr. TILDEN said the practice had been for He said, here they had arrived at a point of some the Executive to commute sentences, that power consequence, for the question was whether the being supposed to be derived from the clause legislature should have the supreme control over giving him authority to grant pardons and re- the pardoning power, or whether it should be prieves generally. Pardons had also been granted vested in the Executive. If the legislature should to take effect after the lapse of a specified time have the power to direct the Executive in the from 1 to 4 years. This had the effect of short. exercise of the pardoning power, it would, in ening or commuting a sentence, though it was of effect be appropriating the Executive power, and very doubtful propriety. He desired that all making the Executive, in the language of Mr. doubts should now be settled; and he agreed Jefferson, a mere directory. And if the exerwith the gentleman from Herkimer, (Mr. HOFF- cise of that power were restricted before the MAN,) that some power should be reserved to commission of the offence, it would tend to dethe legislature to prescribe rules by which the stroy its value and weaken the criminal code as Executive should grant pardons. This might a motive for action-and he quoted from Story tend to lessen the multiplicity of applications an argument in favor of vesting the pardoning for Executive clemency, and the duty of the power in the Executive alone; and said he desiGovernor in that respect. He hoped the amend- red, in the language of that great jurist, to leave ment would prevail. that power unfettered and unrestricted in the Mr. CROOKER favored the amendment,for it hands of the Executive. would effect the object he had sought to accom. Mr. MORRIS explained the section and the plish, of giving the Governor power to commute I object of the committee in framing it. He said sentences for a term of years. He was however in reference to that portion of the section which not satisfied to retain in the hands of the Gov. gave the Governor power to grant pardons, unernor alone so onerous a duty and so tremen. der such restrictions and limitations as he may 278 think proper, that it was a power which could be appreciated in New-York and other large cit. ies, where some very genteel citizens were London pickpockets. It was not to be used to send our criminals to other countries, but for the purpose of sending back criminals that had been disgorged upon us. It was a well known fact that criminals from other countries were sent here. He cited the instance of a German Swiss that murdered a family on Long Island, and who, it was found out, had committed a similar crime in his own country, for which he was pardoned that he might come here. Mr. M. saw nothing hard to understand, or conflicting in this section, as it stood before this word only was put in. Without it, the section authorized the Governor in all cases to commute the punishment of death to imprisonment for life. That included treason. But the only objection was that the Governor himself might commit treason. But in such a case impeachment would precede a conviction for treason, and he would then be no longer Governor. Mr. STETSON spoke of the emissaries of the Governor. Mr. MORRIS replied that the emissaries of the Governor might be also emissaries of a majority of the Senate-and the very tribunal proposed here might be incapacitated to act as much as the Governor himself. Mr. CHATFIELD called to order. The question of treason was not embraced here. Mr. MORRIS was very glad the gentleman stopped him-else he might have gone on a half an hour longer than he intended. If the same kindness had been extended to others, we should not have had his learned friend's speech, (Mr. BURR.) Mr. M. went on to say that he objected to this amendment because it was not merely an alteration of verbiage but of thWe meaning of the section. If the Convention desired so to alter the meaning they would vote for it. Mr. RHOADES sustained Mr. CHATFIELD'S amendment. The power of pardon was a dangerous power, and ought to be restrained. So with the power of commutation. If the pending amendments were rejected, he should move to give this power to the Governor, by and with the advice and consent of the chief justice of the supreme court and the Attorney General. He would also have it in the power of the legislature to prescribe the form of application for pardon-for he believed that it would very much diminish the number, if it was known that publicity would be given to them, and to the names of those signing the application. Mr. CHATFIELD urged the necessity of giving the legislature power to prescribe gener. al restrictions and limitations of the pardoning power-that they might be known and understood. Otherwise juries would exercise that mercy which they doubted the power of the Governor to exercise. Mr. SIMMONS asked what the difference would be between such regulations and the criminal code itself? The very nature and essence of the pardoning power, consisted in the im. perfection of any human regulations, on account of their generality, to meet special and unfor-:seen cases. Mr. CHATFIELD'S amendment was lost 36 to 57. Mr. TAGGART moved to amend by adding after the word proper.' But the legislature may by law limit, regulate or prohibit the exercise by the Governor ot the power to grant pardons after convictions for murder, or to grant conditional pardons.' This was lost, and Mr. SHEPARD'S amendment adopted. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to strike out the words "of the criminal," and insert "thereof." Agreed to. Mr. RHOADES moved to insert after the word proper:"But commutation of the sentence of death to im. prisonment in the state prison, shall be made by the Governor, by and with the advice and consent of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and the Attorney General of this state; and in such cases the poser of pardon shall not be exercised by the Governor except with the advice and consent of the Chief Justice and Attorney General." This amendment was lost. Mr. CLYDE proposed to transpose tne word " only," so that it should follow treason. Mr. TILDEN thought the word unnecessary. Mr. CLYDE'S motion was lost Mr. TALLMADGE moved to strike out the word "only." Carried-47 to 21. Mr. STOW moved to insert after the word proper"( But the legislature may by law require that notice shall be given to the district attorney of the county where the trial was had, or to the judge before whom the cause was tried, or to both said district attorney and judge, before a pardon shall be granted; and the legislature may require the Govornor to communicate to them the reasons for which a pardon was granted." Mr. PATTERSON thought the latter part of the amendment unnecessary. The section already provided for that. Mr. STOW replied that his amendment was designed to authorize a call for the reasons in detail in particular cases-besides compelling in all cases notice to public officers of the pendency of such applications. Mr. HOFFMAN said, if the amendment of the gentleman from Otsego had prevailed, then there would have been force and propriety in the amendment. But as the Convention had settled that the terms, limitations and conditions on which the pardoning power should be exercised, should rest exclusively with the Executive, why should the legislature call on him for his reasons? After he had exercised the power of what use would it be to call on him, except to get up a newspaper discussion about it? Mr. NICOLL urged that it would be a restraint on the Executive, to know that the facts on which he based his action, in all cases might be called for and published. Mr. PATTERSON moved to strike out the latter part of the amendment. It imposed too much on the Executive, and it might be impolitic for the Executive to communicate all the reasons on which he might have acted. Mr. STOW had left it discretionary with the legislature to call for this information-and it was not to be supposed that they would make calls on the Executive in a doubtful case, without the usual reservation, "if not inconsistent with the public interest." His object was to 279 hold the Executive to his accountability in these matters, which could not be, so long as the mo. tive of his action was locked up in his own breast. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN thought it singular that those who went for giving the Governor the unlimited power of pardon, should distrust him so far as to desire this check on him, if that could be called a check which no one pretended could be of any avail, as it could only come into use when all the mischief, if any, was done. Mr. STOW replied that this information might lead to an impeachment. But there was still another tribunal-that of public opinion-which gentlemen seemed to overlook. Mr. CHATFIELD asked if the gentleman would compel the Governor to furnish evidence against himself? Mr. STOW replied that when a governor had no motive for his action but a bad one, he would of course decline to communicate them. And if he could not answer a call without impeaching himself, let him decline to answer. That would accomplish every object that could be attained by an answer. Mr. STEPHENS remarked that the principle of the amendment was the same as that of his proposition made in committee of the whole, and voted down But he trusted this would receive a more favorable consideration. If the legislature could not act upon the information given by the Governor, so far as to reverse a a pardon, they could at least hold him responsible at the bar of public opinion Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN asked whether the legislature had ever called for reasons for an Executive act,with a view of condemning them? Mr. STEPHENS replied that the constitution now required the Governor to communicate to the legislature the reasons for a veto-not so much with a view to correcting or censuring the Governor, by overthrowing his objections, as with a view to hold him to his accountability for his acts. And the effect was to restrain the Executive from an arbitrary exercise of his veto power. So this provision, whilst it made the Governor responsible at the bar of public opinion, would also induce on his part, extreme caution in the exercise of this power of pardon. Mr. SIMMONS thought the section was entirely unnecessary. Without it the legislature would have full power to regulate the manner of proceeding, by applicants and by the Executive, in granting pardons. Mr. BRUNDAGE thought we were absolutely wasting time that would be wanted by and by, when we came to business that was really important. We had a rule which prohibited a member speaking more than twice to the same question, and yet this rule had been most shamefully violated. He trusted the rule would be strictly enforced hereafter. The Convention refused to strike out the last clause, and Mr. STow's amendment was negatived-ayes 29, noes 71, as iollows:AYES-Messrs. H Backus, Bouck, Brayton, Bull, Candee, Conely, Flanders, Gardner, Harris, Jordan, ernb!e, Miller, Murphy, Nicoll, Parish, Powers, Rhoades,,a isbury, shaver, Sheldon, Stephens, Stow, Strong, Taggart, Tallmadge, Ward, Waterbury, Worden, A Wright, Young-29. NOES-Messrs. Angel, Archer, Ayrault, F. F. Back us, Bascom, Bowdish, Brown Brundage Burr, Cam breleng, D, D. Campbell, Chatfield, Clark, Clyde Cook, Cornell, Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforthr Dorlon, Dubois, Gebhard, Graham, Greene, Harrison, Hart, Hawley, Hoffman, Hotchkiss, A. Hluntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jones, Kernan, Kingsley, Mann, McNitt, Maxwell, Morris, Nellis, Nicholas, O'Conor, Patterson, the President, iker, Kussell,St. John, Sears, Shaw, Shepard Simmons, Smith, E. Spencer, Stetson, Swackhamer, Taft, J. J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Tilden, Tuthill, Vache, Van Schoonhoven, Warren,White,Willard, Wood, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Youngs-71. Mr. HART now moved a reconsideration of Mr. CHATFIELD'S amendment, and the motion lies over under the rule. Mr. HAWLEY moved to add, after the word proper:(" But no pardon reprieve or commutation shall be granted, unless notice of the intended application for such pardon, reprieve, or commutation shall have been published in the state paper, and in one or more of the newspapers published in the county in which the offence shall have been committed, at least six weeks successively, prior to such application." Mr. TAGGART said the Convention had just voted down a better amendment-and as we seemed disposed to go back to absolutism, the simpler the mode in which it was done the better. Why have any restrictions? Why not strike them all out? Then we should want but one more section to make the constitution com. plete-a section giving the Governor the whole power of the governmentMr. HAWLEY'S amendment was rejected. Mr. DANA moved to strike out all down to and including the word proper, and insert: t" The Governor shall have power according to the provisions of law to grant reprieves and pardons after convic ion, for all offences except those punishable with death, and cases of impeachment. He may commute sentence of death to imprisonment for life." The amendment was lost. Mr. VACHE proposed to change the phraseology of the section-first by striking out " for all offences except treason and cases of impeachment," and inserting-" except in cases of treason or of impeachment." Mr. JORDAN suggested that it would be better still to say-" all offences except treason and, such as are the subjects of impeachment." Mr. A. W. YOUNG moved to amend Mr. VACHE'S amendment by substituting "and" for " or." Lost, as was the amendment itself. Mr. VACHE moved to strike out "or,'7 where it occurs in the clause " shall either pardon, or commute the sentence, or direct," &c.Agreed to. Mr. VACHE then moved to strike out all after the words " pardon granted" in the twelfth line. Lost. Mr. CROOKER moved to strike out all down to and including the word proper, and insert (" The Governor shall have power to grant reprieves. commutations and pardons, after conviction, for all offences punishable with death, except treason." Mr. C. stated that his object was to restrain Executive power in this respect-intending when we came to the article on the legislative power, to vest the residue of this power thereThe amendment was lost, ayes 10, noes 84. The ayes wereMessrs. Archer, Burr, Crooker, Dana, Gebhard, Har ris, Hawley, Swackhammcr, Taggart, W. Wright. The Convention then adjourned to 9 o'clock on Monday morning. 280 MONDAY, Prayer by the Rev. Dr. KENNEDY. Mr. BOUCK presented a petition relating to the enlargement of the Erie canal, its completion, the application of its revenues, &c. Referred to the third standing committee. EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. Mr. STETSON moved that the intervening order of business, except reports of committees, be laid on the table, for the purpose of proceeding to the unfinished business. On this motion 46 voted in the affirmative and 7 in the negative -no quorum voting. On a second vote, there were 56 in the affirmative and 13 in the negative; so the motion was agreed to. When the Convention adjourned on Saturday, the 6th section was under consideration. Mr. CHATFIELD called for the question on his motion to reconsider the vote by which the Convention, on Saturday, refused to strike out the words " as he may think proper," and insert " as may be provided by law," on which he called for the yeas and nays, and they were ordered, and resulted yeas 42, nays 40, as follows: AYES-Messrs. Angel, Archer, Bascom, Chambrelain, Chatfield, Conely, Cornell, Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforth, Flanders, Gebhard, Hart, Hawley, Hotchkiss, Hutchinson, Jones, Maxwell, Nellis, Nicoll, Patterson, President, Richmond, St. John, Salisbury, Shaver, W.H. Spencer, Stephens, Strong, Swackhamer, Taft, Taggart, Tallmadge, W. Taylor, Townsend, Waterbury, Willard, Witbeck, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Youngs-42. NOES-Messrs. Ayrault, H Backus, Bouck, Brayton, Brundage, Bull, Burr, Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr., Candee, Clark, Greene, A. Huntington, Hyde, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland,Mann, McNitt, Miller, Morris,Mur. phy, Nicholas, O'Conor, Parish, Penniman, Riker,Russell, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Simmons, Smith, Stetson. Stow, J.J. Taylor, Tuthill, Wood, Young-40. Mr. HOFFMAN, while he was opposed to the pardoning power being taken from the Executive, was nevertheless in favor of the legislature having power to regulate the time and manner and circumstances under which the power should be exercised by the Governor. He would no sooner give the power to pardon to the legislature, than he would overthrow the judgments of the courts. As the constitution now stands, the legislature has exercised the power to regulate the Executive discretion on this subject. He related the circumstances of a case in which a pardon was granted on forged papers, and if such cases could occur, he asked if it was not proper that the legislature should have power to provide some regulations? Mr. RUSSELL enquired if the legislature could not now pass a law, declaring the fabrication of such papers to be forgery? Mr. HOFFMAN said undoubtedly that could be done under the constitution of 1821; but when they took all the provisions and incorporated them into the constitution, it became an exclusive power, and the legislature could do no more; and to obviate this state of things the gentleman from Otsego had made his motion. Mr. SIMMONS was satisfied that his object was the same as that of the gentleman irom Herkimer. He was unwilling by any mistaken phraseology, to confer upon the legislature the pardoning power which is now vested in the Ex. ecutive; and yet the amendment would have that JULY 20. effect. He desired the Governor to have the power in such a manner that it could not be taken away from him, nor modified, except as to the manner and form of its exercise. Now what was the pardoning power? It was the power to dispense with the laws. It was a high power. It was the same as the veto power in legislation-for by this provision they armed the Executive with the power to negative the action of the judiciary. It must therefore, in its very nature, be exclusive and absolute. How then could the legislature regulate it by law? If the legislature might prescribe the conditions, limitations and restrictions by which he should exercise it, there would be a superior power over the Governor. At the same time he was willing to reserve to the legislature the regulation of the manner of exercising it, if that could be done without injury to the substance. How then could that be done? The legislature might provide by a general law that every person applying for a pardon shall give such and such a notice and apply in such and such a manner; they might prescribe the manner in which the necessary information shall be provided. They had certainly the power to require circuit judges, who tried the criminal, to make a report of all the evidence to the Governor,and the petitioners to show the reasons why the pardon should be granted within a certain time. and after due notice had been given. He would not object to the exercise of this power by the legislature, but he would not consent that the pardoning power itself should be infringed or taken away by the legislature. Mr. STETSON recapitulated the positions heretofore assumed and contended, that the amendment of the gentleman from Otsego, would transfer the pardoning power from the Governor to the legislature, to which he was opposed. Mr. NICHOLAS said the amendment would be practically subversive of our criminal code, and would render the criminal law a mere nullity. It would authorize thelegislature to enact a law, which shall authorize the Governor in such and such cases, to make an abatement of the sentence of a court, and thus they would hold up before malefactors, a new scale of pun. ishments, and destroy the emficacy of the certainty of punishments. He contended that the power should be vested alone in the Executive. He therefore hoped the amendment would be rejected. Mr. CHATFIELD replied. He contended that one of the objects for the calling of the Convention was not only to limit the delegated power of the legislature, but also to limit the executive patronage and power. He said the gentleman from Essex was unhappy in his comparison, when he treated the pardoning as equivalent to the veto power; but the gentleman from Herkimer, (Mr. HOFFMAN) had put the question in a clear light. He only proposed that the legislature should have the power to prescribe the manner and mode and form, and to avoid misconstruction, he would change the phraseology of his amendment, and substitute 281 "as shall have been piovided by law," for "as back, Dana, Danforth, Flanders, Gebhard Harr's, may be provided by law." This would obviate Hart, Hawley, Hoffman, Hotchkiss, Jones, Maxwell, Nellis, Patterson, St. John, Salisbury, Shaver, W. H. the objection that might be entertained, to legis- Spencer, Strong, Swackhamer, Taft, Taggart, Tall. lation for a particular case, and would require madge, Tilden, Van Schoonhoven, Waterbury, W. B. the legislation to be general. Wright, Yawger, Youngs-38. Mr. MORRS contended that it was necessa- NOES-Messrs. Ayrault, H. Backus, Bouck, BrayMr. tMOI ontended tha tit was neeessav ton, Brown, Brundage, Bull,Cambreleng, RI Campbell, ry the pardoning power should be firm. Even jr., Clark, Dorlon, Greene, A. Huntington, Hutchinson, if the Governor pardoned corruptly or ignorant- Hyde, Jordan, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland, Mann, Mec ly, the pardon should be maintained, though the Nitt Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nicholas, Nicoll, O'ConGovernor might be impeached. or, Parish, Penniman, Perkins, President, Richmond, Hiker, Russell, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, SimMr. WORDEN entered into some explana- mons, Smith, E. Spencer, Stanton, Stephens, Stetson, tions with Mr. MORRIS, to show that, as the law -tow, J. J. Taylor, W Taylor, Townsend, Tuthill, now stood, the pardon could be brought into Vache, illard, Wood, Worden, Young-65. question; and such a case was now pending in Mr. W TAYLOR then moved the amendthe Court of Errors, arising out of a pardon by ment he had before indicated by substituting Gov. Wright. the words "subject to such regulations as may Mr. SHEPARD was opposed to the amend- be provided by law relative to the manner of ment of the gentleman from Otsego, because it applying for pardons," which was adopted by did in terms strip the Governor of the pardon- a majority of 57 to 24. ing power, by giving to the legislature power to Mr. TALLMADGE then moved to insert the impose any conditions, limitations and restric- word "the" before the word "power" in the tions that they might see fit. The legislature first line. might, among other things, provide that the Ex- Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN enquired what ecutive should not exercise this power until a the object of the amendment was. committee of the legislature had examined the Mr. TALLMADGE replied it was to prevent case. Now if it was designed to strip the Ex- a joint exercise of the power. ecutive of this power, he would prefer that it Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN intimated that should be done in a bold, manly manner, and not he doubted if even that amendment would take by indirection. away the power from the Legislature. Mr. RUSSELL sustained the position taken The amendment was agreed to. by the gentleman from New-York (Mr. SHEP- Mr. STOW desired to move a reconsideration ARD). of the last vote but one, but he was informed Mr. W. TAYLOR said the amendment cov- it was not in order. erey too much ground, and gave too great a lat- The section was then agreed to. itude. When he had the opportunity, he should The sixth section was next read and it was move to amend so as to provide that the pardon- adopted, after rejecting amendments offered by ing power should be exercised, "subject to such Mr. CROOKER and Mr. SWACKHAMERregulations as may be provided by law relative the one to make the Lieutenant-Governor actuto the manner of applying for pardons." ally Governor in case the Governor should be Mr. MURPHY rose to move the previous absent, or resign, and to strike out the provision question; but gave way to which merely devolves the duty of the Governor Mr. STOW, to make some explanations. on the Lieutenant Governor in such circumstanMr.M. then reluctantly renewed the motion ces-the other to add the word Naval" in the for the previous question; and called for the line which provided that the Lieutenant Gover, yeas and nays thereon. nor should be commander-in-chief of the miliMr. JONES raised a question as to the opera tary forces in the absence of the Governor, in tion of the previous question. time of war. The PRESIDENT decided that it applied only The seventh section was next read. to the section under consideration, and not to Mr. O'CONOR moved to strike out from the the entire article. 1st and 2nd lines, the words which provided that Mr. SHEPARD enquired if the previous ques. the Lieutenant Governor should "possess the tion would cut off those amendments which had same qualifications of eligibility for office as the already been passed. Governor," and he called for the yeas and nays, The PRESIDENT replied in the negative. which were ordered The question was then taken; and as 32 only The motion was rejected-yeas 34, nays 59, voted, several gentlemen contended that the mo- as follows:tion was lost, being less than a majority of a quorum. AYES-Messrs. Archer, Bascom, Brown, Cambrel Mr. MURPHY insisted upon having the yeas eng, lande bellarr, Mhafield, Jonel, Kean, Mann Ion, Flanders, Harris, Mart, Jones, Kernan, Mann, and nays, which he had previously demanded. Murphy, Nellis, O'Conor, Paterson, Perkins, Russell, The PRESIDENT put the question on order- Shepard, Stephens, Swackbamer, W. Taylor, Townsing the yeas and nays, and they were ordered; end, ache, Van Schoonhoven, Witbeck, Worden, W. n B. Wright-34. and being taken, resulted, yeas 55, nays 36-so NOES-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, H. Backus, Bouck, there was a second. Brayton, Bull, Candee, Chamberlain, Clark, Crooker, The main question was ordered to be now Cuddeback, Dana, Gebhard,Greene, Hawley, Hoffman, put, and the question then recurred on the Hotchkiss, A. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordan, put, andm the question then recurred on the Kingsley, Kirkland, McNitt,, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, amendment of the gentleman from Otsego, as Nicholas, Nicol, Parish, Penniman, President, RictS modified by him, and it was negatived-yeas mond, Riker, St. John, Salisbury, Seare, Shaver, Shaw, 38, nays 55, as follows:- Sheldon, simmons, Smith, E. Spencer, W. H Spencer, Stanton, Stetson, Stow, Strong, Taft, Taggart TallAYES-Messrs. Angel Archer, Bascom,Burr,Cham. madge,.J.Taylor, Tuthill,Waterbury,Willardwood, berlain, Chatfield, Conely, Cornell, Crooker, Cudde. Yawger, Young, Youngs-69. 282 The section was then agreed to The 8th section was adopted without any proposed amendment. The 9th section was read. Mr. MURPHY moved to amend that portion of it which provides that the Governor shall not hold " any office or plate in any corporation or institution of a local or private character," so as to prevent him holding those offices ex officio merely. He said he did not mean to disqualify the Governor, if he were a church warden when he came here. Mr. KIRKLAND showed that the section required amendment, otherwise the Governor would not be able to attend to his own affairs, or be a member of any religious corporation. Mr. PATTERSON said it would prevent the Governor being a member of the Board of Trustees of Union College. Mr. STOW said the Governor was made a member of the Board of Trustees of Union College by its charter, and it was unconstitutional to take away that right unless it were reserved. He quoted the Dartmouth College case in support of the position. Mr. MURPHY replied, and contended that this provision of the charter would be prospective and not retroactive in its operation. He also contended that the gentleman from Erie had misapprehended the Dartmouth case which he had quoted. Mr. JORDAN said this section was well considered in committee of the whole, and there adopted in its present form, but if the amendment of the gentleman from Kings was adopted it would bring them back to the position from which they set out. Mr. SIMMONS replied to the remarks of several gentlemen, and in opposition to these restrictions. He thought it was rather too late a period for them to deform the pages of the con. stitution by such provisions, expressive of distrust of the Governor of the state, who was elected only for two years. The amendment was negatived. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to strike out the words " or place," which was agreed to. Mr. W. TAYLOR moved to strike out the whole restriction, which was in these words, " nor any office in any corporation or institution of a local or private character." If these words remained, he said the Governor would not even be allowed to be a trustee of a religious society, a deacon, or a ruling elder of a church, to which he did not suppose there could be any objection. On his amendment he called for the yeas and nays. The debate was continued by Messrs. STE. PHENS, SWACKHAMER, RICHMOND, A. W. YOUNG, and W. TAYLOR. The amendment was then agreed to, ayes 47, noes 43, as follows: AYES-Messrs. Ayrault, Bascom, Bouck, Brayton, Bull Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr., Candee, Conely, Datforlh, l)orloai Greene, Harris, Hart, Hawley, Hotchkiss Jnes, Jordan Kngsley, K irkland, McNitt, Maxwell, Milleri Nicholas, Nicoll, O'Conor, Parish, Patterson, Perkins, President, t iker, ussell, Salisbu. ry, Shaver, Sheldon, Simmons, Smith, E Spencer, Stephens, Stow, J. J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Witbeck, Worden, W B. W right, Young, Youngs-47. NOES-Messrs. Angel. l,. Backus, brown Brundage, Burr, Chatfield, Clark, Cook, Cornell, Crooker, Cud debaek, D)an, Flanders, Gebhard, Hoffman, A Huntington, Hutchinson, Kernan, Mann, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, Pennimin, Richmond, St. John, Sears, Shaw, Shiepard, W. H. Spencer, Stanton, Stetson, Strong Swackhamer, Taggart, Tallmadge,Townsend, Tuthill, Vache, Van Schoonhoven, Warren, Waterbury, Wood, Yawger-43. Mr. WORDEN proposed some verbal amendments which were agreed to. Mr. RICHMOND then moved to strike out the whole section, for all that was good in it had been taken away. Mr. O'CONOR said the section was a bad one, and he trusted it would be stricken out. He thought no such restrictions should be imposed unless some justification for them could be found in the recollection of some evil which had arisen-and he thought they would be found very inconvenient in practice. Mr. R. CAMPBELL spoke briefly in favor of the ninth section-as necessary to secure all the time and services of the Governor to the state, and at the same time to prevent any conflict between the duties he might owe to the state and the U. S. Mr. STETSON agreed that a very valuable part of the section had been lost; at the same time he hoped that what was left of the section would be retained. In order to save it if possible, he moved a reconsideration. The motion lies over under the rule. Mr. RICHMOND was indifferent whether the section were retained or not-the most valuable portion of it being struck out. Mr. SIMMONS the more he reflected on this subject was the more convinced that it would be unwise to prohibit the Governor from executing duties required of him by the general government, on pain of forfeiting his office. He cited officers of the state government that were used by the United States government, and without in. convenience to any body. The state judiciary were employed often in duties growing out of the naturalization laws of Congress. He alluded also to the West Point Academy, and asked what objection there could be to allowing the Governor to act as an examiner in that institution. He hoped the section would not be retained. Mr. BASCOM remarked that Governors had been made boundary commissioners by the Uni. ted States government. And why should we be so anxious to prohibit that? He hoped the section would be struck out. Mr. STOW also hoped it would not be retained-as the whole subject involved in it belonged properly to another Article. The question was here taken on the section, and it was lost by a tie vote-ayes 46, noes 46, as follows:AYES-Messrs Angel, Archer, Ayrault, Brayton, Brown, Brundage, Burr, Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr, Chatfield, Cook, Cornell, Cuddeback, Flanders, Geb. hard, Hart, Hoffm'ln, A. Huntington, Jordan, Kernan, Mann, Miller, Morris, Nellis, Nichoias, Nicoll Penniman, Russell, St John, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Stanton, eson, Strong, Taft, Tallmadge, J. J Taylor,W. Taylor, Tuthill, Van Schoonhoven, Waterbury, Wood, Yawger, Young, Youngs-46 NOES-Messrs. H. Backus, Bascom, Bouck, Bull, Chamberlain, Clark, Conely, 'rooker, Dana, Danforth, Dorlon, Greene, Harris, Hawley, Hotchkiss, Hutchin son, Hyde, Jones, Kingsley, Kirkland, ilVcNitt, Max. well, Murphy, O'Conor,Parish, Patterson, President, Richmond, Biker, aUisbury,,-ears, shaver, Simmons, 283 Smith, E. Spencer, W. R. Spencer, Stephens, Stow, Swackhamer, Taggart, Townsend, Vache, Warren, Willard, Worden, W. B. Wright —46, Mr. STETSON moved a reconsideration, and the motion lies over. The tenth section was then read. Mr. NICOLL moved to strike it out-and The motion prevailed, 44 to 36. The eleventh section was then read. Mr. NICHOLAS moved to amend the section so as to require two thirds of those present to reverse a veto-as provided in the present con. stitution. Mr. CHATFIELD preferred to amend so as to require a majority of all the members elected to overturn a veto. Such a number he regarded as a fair reflection of the popular will-and no one man should stand between that will and the acts of the legislature carrying it out. Some of the states gave no veto power to their governor. In Iowa the majority principle prevailed, and in some the two third principle. He would strip the Executive of this power, so long as he was a co-ordinate branch of the legislature. He would not make him a mere clerk to sign bills, without any discretionary power over them. But ordinarily the power to arrest the passage of a bill, unless repassed by a majority of those elected to the two houses, was power enough for one man. To say that it should require two thirds of all elected to pass a bill against a veto, would be to give the Executive all power over the legislation of the state-for the influence of any administration in the legislature-the desire there to harmonize with the Executive-was of itself equal to at least one third of the house. As a general rule he was opposed to this one.man power-which he regarded as monarchical in its spirit and affect. Mr. MANN sustained the section as it stood -requiring two-thirds of all elected to overturn a veto. And he asked what would the veto power be worth, if a mere majority could re. verse it, if, as was probable, we had no twothird votes on the passage of laws, but required a majority of all elected to pass a bill? Mr. HARRIS said the Convention would be a witness that he had rarely forced himself upon its attention during the session. He felt however, that he could not discharge his duty, by merely giving a silent vote on this propositionfor it was one of the few questions that had been presented thus far to which he attached much importance. If he understood popular senti. ment in regard to the necessity for this Convention, one important object was the curtailment of Executive power and patronage. And he confessed, he was not a little surprised to see those who occupied a progressive position, taking ground against restrictions on the veto pow. er. He confessed, he anticipated that the majority principle would be incorporated in the new constitution by an almost unanimous vote. He might perhaps have known better, had he reflected that there were those here who were committed to the political creed promulgated at Bal. timore two years ago-an essential part of which was the two-third principle. On that ground alone could he account for the position of certain gentlemen here on this question.. To preserve free government in its integrity and simplicity, it was sometimes necessary to revert to first principles. And in such a body as this, assembled for the purpose of reviewing the organic law, a recurrence to cardinal principles, a glance at the past, a contemplation of what had been done since we started, and what progress we had made in government, was peculiarly proper and necessary, with reference to future changes. This was a question much agitated in the Convention which framed the U. S. constitution. Some of the wisest statesman of that day proposed that there should be no such negative power vested in the President. But a majority of that body determined otherwise, and on the ground mainly that without it the Executive, compared with the legislative power, wouldbe too weak. But experience had shown that this was a mistake. The veto power had grown to be a most formidable and overshadowing power, whose encroachments threatened fearful consequences. The gradual encroachment of this power were to be seen in our own history. A recurrence to the circum. stances under which Gen. Washington first exercised this power, as detailed by Jefferson, would show this. Before Gen. Washington ventured to exercise this extraordinary power, he required of Mr. Jefferson, of Mr. Madison and of Mr. Randolph, written opinions as to the constitutionality of the act. Washington exercised the power but once in his eight years, and for twelve years thereafter it was not exercised at all except in two instances, and then on constitutional grounds only. Madison exercised the power six times, and always on the same grounds. It was left for John Tyler to veto a bill on the ground of expediency-or because his opinion did not coincide with that of the majority of the representatives of the people of the' U. S. This was the extreme to which this power had been carried in the U. S. governmentand the result was an admonition to us to see to it that we did not give too wide a scope to it. He had looked through the constitutions of the twenty-nine states of this Union, to see how in other states this power had been vested.He found that in nine of these constitutions there was no veto power at all. In ten others, the majority principle had been adopted. In five others, including our own, the two-third principle was recognized-but whether two-thirds of those present or of those elected, was not perhaps certain. In Louisiana alone was the prin. ciple of two-thirds of all elected unequivocally required. But the history of other countries was not without instruction on this point. This veto power was a characteristic of the Roman government. It was instituted to protect the people against the decrees of a Roman senate, an aristocratic body with which the masses had little affinity. The power was exercised through Tribunes elected by the people. That principle for a time worked well; but it afterwards became the subject of intolerable abuse. All were aware of the fact that Augustus, as a preparatory step caused himself to be elected Tribuneand thus having possessed himself of the veto power, the power over the treasury and the militia, the liberties of Rome fell an easy prey to his ambition. The constituent assemblyof France in 1789, in reorganizing the government, vested 284 m the King, the veto pbwer and the first exer. cise of it by Louis XVI cost him his life. The same thing contributed largely to the destruction of the Polish republic. Any member of the Po. lish Diet, had an absolute veto on any law. The Emperor of Russia, availing himself of this in. viting opportunity to acquire such an influence with members of the diet, that he could veto any bill of the Polish government. In consequence of this, that government became involved in dire misfortunes, and the result was eventually the dismemberment of that country. So on the oth. er hand, nothing save the principle of the Norwegian government which permitted three succesive diets, by a majority vote, to overcome the veto of the King, had enabled that people to get rid of their titled nobility.Could there be any danger in allowing the free execution of the will of the people, through the legislature, coming together as it did fresh from all parts of the state, and representing its varied interests and wishes? Especially could there be danger in allowing the majority for the time being to express the popular will, with the certainty that if error were committed a succeeding legislature would correct it? Mr. H. would allow the Executive to send back bills which might have been hastily passed in his judgment, or the constitutionality of which he might regard as doubtful, for review and reconsideration-but if after a mature consideration of the Governor's suggestions, a majority should deliberately re-enact the bill, by a majority vote, he maintained that it would be inconsistent with the fundamental principles of our government, to allow a single individual to thwart the will of the people thus expressed. But what was there in the position that the Executive would have no motive to act corruptly and obstinately to thwart the will of the people? If there was anything in the argument it proved too much. For if this was true of the Governor, how much more true was it of the immediate representatives of the people? What motive or inducement could they have to thwart that will? And how much safer was it to trust a majority of the people's representatives, acting under their responsibilities, than to allow a single individual to fatalize the will of a majbrityof such representatives! He had no objection to the Governor's exercising a supervisory power over legislation; but having done that-having declared his opinion as to the expediency or constitutionality of a law-and the legislature having passed the bill again, notwithstanding these objections-the latter should be allowed to take the responsibility of the measure, and to stand upon it before the common constituency of both. He urged that there could be no safer rule to adopt, than to place the power of registration in the hands of a majority of the people's representatives. Mr. CAMBRELENG remarked, that it was wholly immaterial which of these two amendments were adopted-as a majority of all elected, would practically be as effective as two-thirds of all present. He should probably vote with the gentleman from Albany; and he only rose to show how completely that gentleman's argument went against his own position. The object of the veto power, in all governments, was to have a check on absolute power. Supreme legislative power was vested by the constitution in the legislature. There was no limitation to it. The veto power was designed for the protection of the people against the abuse of that power; and it would be strange indeed, if, after the experience of seventy years, this safeguard against the encroachments of absolute power were now to be discarded entirely, or robbed of its vitality. It was an old maxim, that in Republics, the legislature was the tyrant; and it was only on that ground that the veto could be defended. It was one of the greatest popular safeguards in our constitution, and in his judgment its results had been beneficent. In Rome, and in Poland, and in every instance which had been cited, it was designed as a check on absolute power. It was on that ground that he voted for it, with the amendment of the gentleman from Otsego-which he thought fully as strong as that of the gentleman from Ontario. Mr. W. TAYLOR opposed the amendment of the gentleman from Otsego. He did not believe it would prove to be any check upon improvident and unconstitutional legislation. He alluded to a recent case in Connecticut-where he said a railroad company, its stock owned chiefly out of that state, beseiged the legislature for power to bridge the Connecticut river. The Governor deemed it both unconstitutional and inexpedient, as destructive of the rights and interests of citizens above the bridge, and he vetoed it. But the same majority which passed the bill, under the influence of an overwhelming lobby, re-passed the bill and it was soon a law. And the result was seen in threats of mob-vio lence, and great local excitement-and the probability was that no bridge could be built there, or if built, that it would be torn down. This was the result of the majority principle. He would have a veto, if any that should be effectual, leaving the Governor responsible to the people for his acts-and there could be no doubt that if he exercised the power corruptly or improperly, the people would correct the error the moment they had an opportunity. A communication was here announced from the New-York City Convention to revise the city charter, in relation to the appointment of judicial officers in that city-which was referred to the judiciary committee. The Convention then took a recess until 4 o'clock, P. M. AFTERNOON SESSION. The Convention resumed the consideration of the amendment of Mr. NCHOLAS, to the section in regard to the veto power. Mr. SIMMONS rose under the impression that the question was on Mr. CHATFIELD'S amendment. Mr. HARRIS also was under that impression -but under a suggestion from the CHAIR that the question was on the proposition of Mr. NICHOLAS to restore the old constitution, he moved to amend so as to require a majority of all elected to re-pass a bill against a veto. Mr. SIMMONS preferred the old constitution to that-though he was not satisfied with it.He insisted that the true course was to say that in case a bill was re-passed by a majority of all elected it should be sent again to the Governor, 285 and if he should still object to the bill as unconstitutional and should send it back again with such a message, then that it should require three. fourths of all elected to pass it. In such a case he would have the veto absolute-for the constitution was the supreme law, binding on Governor and legislature, and no mere naked majority should have power to compel an Executive to execute a law which he deemed at war with the constitution which he was sworn to support.He agreed with Gen. Jackson, that no man was bound to put a law in force which he believed was in conflict with the supreme law of the land. This veto power was essentially a power of self-defence. Without it there would be nothing to prevent one branch of the government from overturning the other-and the Executive, in the language of Mr. Jefferson, instead of being a co-ordinate branch of the legislature, would become a mere recorder of bills. Mr. S. repeated, he would give the Governor an absolute veto on bills which he thought unconstitutional. The other question, whether he should have a veto on bills on the ground of their inexpediency, depended on several contingencies. If the members of the two houses were elected in single districts, instead of a sort of general ticket system, then there could he no doubt that the legislature would be a truer representation of the popular will than the Executive, and in matters of expediency, a majority of them should control. But if we could not get that, then perhaps we had better retain it as it is. But in questions of constitutionality, the Executive should have the power that the judiciary had to veto laws. Otherwise, the legislature could at any moment lay the axe at the root of the Executive power, and destroy the harmony and balance of power in the government. We came very near putting the pardoning power into the hands of the legislature. He hoped we should not be frightened by the idea that this veto power was despotic and arbitrary, from arming the Executive with the necessary power of self-defence against unconstitutional encroachment-leaving matters of expediency where they belonged-with a majority of the representatives of the people. Mr. PATTERSON remarked that the question here was a very simple one. It came home to the understandings of all. It was simply wheher we would require two-thirds of all elected, or two-thirds of those present, to pass a bill against a veto. As to the idea of the gentleman from Essex, that three-fourths of all elected should be required to pass a bill vetoed on the ground of unconstitutionality, he would ask that gentleman, as a lawyer, whether he supposed that an unconstitutional law, even though passed by a unanimous vote in both houses, would be a binding law? Mr. SIMMONS:-It would be, until declared unconstitutional. Mr. PATTERSON replied, that this was true in law; but the moral force of such a law would be as impotent before as after any such declaration. But that gentleman in his anxiety to pre. vent the legislature from overriding the Executive, would shut down the gate oh all legislation, except with the consent of one man! He would make one man's opinion and will equal to those of one hundred and eight of the immediate representatives of the people! Mr. P. was opposed to the one-man power to that extent. It would be virtually placing the exclusive power of legislation in the hands of one individual, to require a majority of two-thirds of all elected, to pass a bill against a veto. The only state constitution which conferred this absolute veto on the Executive, was that of Louisiana. In Ohio, the Governor had no veto power whatever-the judiciary settling all questions of constitutionality. He would retain the power, however, in a qualified form. He would have the Governor interpose to prevent hasty and inconsiderate legislation; but it; upon a reconsideration, a majority of all elected should differ with the Executive, and re-pass the bill, it ought to become a law notwithstanding. And he preferred to say, a majority of all elected, to twothirds of those present The latter was a very uncertain number. It might be any where between forty-four and eighty-six. And practically, a majority of all elected (sixty-five) would be as great a number as two-thirds of those present. But to say two-thirds of all elected would be to put the entire power of legislation into the hands of the Executive, and would be antidemocratic and dangerous. The amendment of the gentleman from Otsego was, in his judgment, the proper one. Mr. HOFFMAN remarked that this subject of the veto power was so fully debated in 1821, that he had not hitherto had the courage to attempt any thing like a re-discussion of it. He did not know that he should be able to bring himself now to any review of its extended merits. But there were some things that he desired to call attention to. This veto power was purely a negative power-not as some gentlemen who spoke of the one-man power seemed to imagine, an affirmative power, or the power to originate measures-but a power merely to hinder a measure from being carried out-to retain things as they were-a state of things which had been tried, which all knew the value of and could judge of thoroughly. The one-man power, in an affirmative shape, a power to make laws, to suspend them, to appropriate money, and to affect thus the rights of property or labor, would find no advocate here. It was to such a power that he understood those to object who spoke of the one-man power. But they spoke of what was not before us-of what was not in agitation. What was this veto power, when exercised? What was it practically? Was it a restraint on the rights of the people? A check upon th utn the execution of the sober judgment of a majority of the people? No. It was no such thing. Practically it had been in every instance for the last half century, a power in direct vindication of the rights of the massesin direct support of the public liberty and individual rights. It was a power against monopoly, against privilege-and this was the reason why it had been popular; and why it would ever be, so long as humanity had the power to discern and the nerve to sustain their own rights. This had been true of every veto put forth in the United States, whether based on the grounds of constitutionality or expediency. It was a mistake to suppose that Gen. Jackson's popularity gave popularity to the veto. It was not so, It was 286 because the veto stood by the rights of the masses against monopoly, against privilege, against expenditure and debt. It was the veto itself that was popular, and the popularity of the officer using it for the defence of the masses was increased by it. He occupied a seat in congress when the veto on the Maysville road bill came in, and he knew what was going on and what was intended. Day after day and week after week, the committee on internal improve. ments, like an installed monarch, was coming in with new schemes and projects. Estimates were piled one on another, until not even 100 millions would satisfy them-and estimates there were like estimates here-never reaching half the actual cost. This was seen by the constituent body throughout the Union. And when the veto came, it was understood to be the strong arm-the voice of the multitude themselves in vindication of their rights. It was seen and known by all, that if this vast system was carried out, with its attendant army of surveyors and engineers, offering the largest rewards to locality, giving the public treasury over to the cupidity of districts-that a government armed with the iron power of unlimited taxation direct and indirect, if it was going into this system, must sweep away the rights of property, and become the grand pensioner and purchaser of votes The veto met and scattered these dangers. This one man power, holding the veto for the people of the Union, scattered all these splendid schemes of internal improvement, and the train of evils which must have resulted from them. Were we to be alarmed at the exercise of this power, when we saw that it was the only power that ever had the moral courage, pa. triotism and virtue, to deny splendid offers of empire,in the shape of patronage and influence, and to stand by the constitution and private lights. He asked whether this veto had done any mischief in this state? Had it despoiled the widow or the orphan? Had it taxed the rich or the poor? Had it undermined the security of property or labor? It had been in the constitution for three quarters of a century. Had it done any mischief to you, your fathers or your children? Gentlemen might not approve of it. But could they lay their hands on any robbery or fraud it had perpetrated-any popularity it had sought to purchase-any locality it had attempted to control-any pensioned followers it had sought to conciliate? No. The veto, when exercised, had in the main stood by the rights of man and the character of the state. Mr. H. alluded here to the veto, two sessions since, where, he said, a majority of a quorum supposed there was a surplus of canal funds on hand, which the public interests required should be appropriated for internal improvements, and passed a bill for that purpose. This employment of the money might have done good-and whether it would have done good or not, it might have pensioned dependants, rallied fol. lowers or purchased popularity. The Governor vetoed the bill. And what would have been the result, had the Governor been stripped, as was proposed here, of the power of maintaining the credit of the state? Mr. H. averred that notwithstanding the great influx of tolls this spring and last fall, if that favorite bill of the majority of the house had passed, your Comptroller, since this body had been in session, would have been compelled to resort to the bankrupt expedient of borrowing over $200,000 to pay the $800,000, principal and interest, of the public debt falling due, to save the credit oj the state from virtual repudiation. And this veto was based, not on constitutional grounds, but on principles just as high and holy-the preservation of the public faith. Why then should we be alarmed at leaving this power as strong as we found it? Why fritter away what had proved serviceable here and elsewhere? The only reason for it was the supposition that the members of the two houses were exclusively the representatives of the people. It was no such thing. Members of the Senate represented districts-of the house, counties. It was the Governor and the Governor alone who represented the entire people of the state. And whose judg. ment should prevail in a matter of dispute?Certainly not that of localities, districts, coun. ties; but the judgment of the people of the state And who more directly represented the people of the state than the Governor? Who more likely to speak the voice of of the people? Who could be said to act more emphatically for the people, not affirmatively but negatively, to protect them against the consequences of indiscretion or folly? Mr. H. had no unusual distrust of the legislature or of the Governor-nor any unusual confidence in either. Confidence in matters of this kind was of slow growth, and in the repeated changes and muta. tions of party, a man must be peculiarly fortunate who gets any great share of the article to carry with him. He had no expectation that any administration here would, by its standing with him, overpower the judgment he might form of any measure. We must, therefore,view this legislative power as it was developed by history. And what had been the course of usurpation in all governments? Whereverthe legislative power was not checked and restrain. ed, each and every of its usurpations had added new strength to the Executive, until legislation had become swallowed up in the grave it had dug for itself. That was the history of every nation of antiquity. It was the history that came from the grave of every nation recently buried. Popular governments invariably began by a single house. The first step in improvement was to get up a second house, and to give each a negative on the other. Gentlemen had spoken of the Executive with the veto, as a novelty invented of late years. It had grown up with human experience. It must have grown to have made free governments almost anything. The gentleman from Albany said it had its existence at Rome, and that for a time it worked well. Mr. H. would add, that it was no longer able to resist usurpation; usurpation swept over the Roman empire; taxation went into the provinces, eviscerating the people of their substances, until the Goths and Vandals came, who instead of acquiring an em. pire, found it a mere shell. The Ceesars succeeded to the empire, and it was at last sold at auction. Such might be the fate of other countries, with the veto power annihilated. This power had grown up with free government. It 287 was designed to secure the mass against licen. tiousness in legislation. Human experience had settled the question of its necessity-and he was for retaining it at least in as strong a form as we found it. The people had found no fault with it. But what had they said of legislation? He had heard of the expression often from men of every class-at the close of a legislative session-of thanks to God that the legislature had adjourned without doing any more mischief.This meant somethin;g and the feeling it exhibited could not last long without the legislature being forbidden to meet at all. And why were we so anxious to limit the length of the legislative sessions? Why this talk of having biennial sessions and of stopping the pay of members, after a certain period? But had there been any question among the constitutional body as to this veto power? Mr. H. went on, in illustration of the course which legislative encroachment always took, to admit to the abandonment of specific appropriations by the legislature-saying that as early as 1830, the legislature, by general law, conferred so much power on the Executive officers that they could have got on here for fifty years without the legislature, and might in that time have incurred a debt of fifty millions. The danger was not from the veto. The difficulty was to bring the veto to bear upon these abuses. It was this course of legislation that had called us together-a course which the veto power had not prevented. It would be difficult to stimulate it fully to the exercise of that duty; but he hoped the effort would be made to teach the Governor himself that it was his duty to veto such legislation as this to which he had alluded. As to the question before the committee, he should be content with the veto as it stood, though he should not oppose the strengthening of it, as proposed by the committee of the whole, nor should not urge it. The power had worked no injury as it stood, and perhaps it had better be retained there. -' Mr. NICHOLAS said he would not occupy much time with this subject, it having been fully discussed on a former occasion. The importance of the veto power has not been questioned, even by those who desire that it should be curtailed. A qualified negative on the legislative power, although it has been liable to abuse, has heretofore been considered an indispenable Executive prerogative. It is an important guard against unconstitutional, corrupt and improvident legislation, and it is also necessary to protect the judicial and executive departments against legislative encroachments. The veto power, as it exists in the Constitution, has been found to be quite strong enough-sufficiently stringent or all exigencies requiring its interposition; and when a power has attained this point, it should never be made stronger. And should it be strengthened, as by this section, adopted when in committee of the whole, it may be practically less effective than it now is. For if a Governor, happening to be a sensitive, timid man, feels that his veto must be (as it would be with this accession ol strength) fatal to a bill, he would sometimes be deterred from exercising this power, when the public interests required it. He (Mr. N.) offered this amendment, re. storing the provision of the present Constitu. tion, as a medium between the extremes now proposed to us-a stronger veto, as provided for by this section, which he wished to amend, and a diminution of the power by the amendment which the gentleman from Otsego informs us he intends to offer. He hoped the Convention would, by adopting this amendment, retain the veto power as it now exists, and thereby avoid all extremes. Mr. WORDEN followed. He agreed with the gentleman from Herkimer, that this subject of the veto power had been so often discussed that he who elaborates upon it, owes an apology to the House. Nor should he do so now, had that gentleman confined himself to the issue. For those who had met to reform a Constitution on principle, his illustrations were most unfortu. nate; for his remarks were only calculated to call up old party prejudices. It might be that the vetoes of Gen. Jackson were judicious and well considered; but that gentleman must have known that a large party on this floor differed from him. But Mr. W. apprehended the object of the gentleman was not so much to defend the veto power, as for another and ulterior purpose. He desired rather to make an assault upon the legislative power, and bring it into contempt before this body and the people. He had this ulterior object in view, to operate upon that other question which would come up hereafter. Mr. W. agreed with that gentleman, that there had been much of improvident legislation heretofore. He agreed with him that there had been much of improvident, he would not say of corrupt, legislation in Congress. He recollected that the gentleman and his political associates were in a majority in the Congress to which allusion had been made, and could control the action of that body. It would therefore be uncourteous in him (Mr. W.) to charge that their legislation had been corrupt. Mr. W. thought the charge came most ungraciously from that gentleman; and had it not been for his settled attempt to preju. dice the public mind against the legislative power, Mr. W. apprehended he would not have placed himself in the inconsistent position of condemning himself and his associates. Again, in his reference to the veto of GovWright, Mr. W. confessed he was astonished when he found him supporting his arguments. by facts which were not true. That gentleman stated that unless that veto power had been then interposed, the public officers would not have been enabled to redeem the state stocks falling due on the 1st of January and July last past.Mr. W. would say to him that notwithstanding the commissioners of the canal fund did report a deficiency at the end of the fiscal year to redeem the stocks falling due on the 1st of January and July, yet, during the last session of the legislature, it was drawn out from them and was now a matter of record, that on the 30th of September last, they had under their control the means to pay every dollar of the stock due on those days, and yet have a sufficiency to meet all the appropriations made in that vetoed bill. Similar statements would be found, in most of the statements in relation to the public debt.Though they might be true in one sense, yet they were not true, as matters upon which to base 288 legislation. For instance, he found on his table a document from the Comptroller, in which our canal debt was put down at $17,516,119 47.Now that was not the amount of canal debt due on the day stated in that report. For all practical purposes of legislation, the statement is untrue. Of that canal debt, about halfa million of public stocks had been paid which were then in the office of the agent of the state, and paid with the public funds of the state. And yet that amount is put down with the rest as substantial debt against the state. That is a specimen of the manner of the statement of the debt in time past. Mr. W. regretted to see in the gentleman from Herkimer, such an utter distrust and contempt of the legislative power. He would cite an instance, where public officers had designedly violated a plain provision of law. In 1834, a law was passed requiring the canal commissioners to enlarge the capacity of the locks. At the next session, the canal commissioners say that they have disregarded that law because there was an absolute and imperious necessity to double the locks and to enlarge them to about the size which was afterwards ordered. Imperious necessity, they urged for disobeying that law, and another was passed in accordance with their recommendation, and from that day may be dated the fiscal embarrassments of the state. Mr. W. would say a word or two about the veto power. Whenever we create a power in the government, it is because we see, or think we see, a necessity for its existence.Now why clothe an officer with this veto power,at all? There must be some reason for it.What is it? What is the justification for such action? He apprehended it would be found in this-that it was supposed there might be unwise, corrupt, or mischievous legislation, and because we anticipate that, we provide in advance a check upon such legislation, and this check we repose in the Executive. But it is only to be exercised in the supposition that such unwise, corrupt, mischievous, or unconstitutional legislation shall occur. The power, then, to remedy such an evil, must be effectual to prevent such mischief. Now would it be wise, after creating this power, to make it nugatory, and perfectly powerless? It certainly would not, in his estimation. To make it thus effectual, we must then go beyond a mere majority, for it would be found to be the case, that very few bills, that called out debate, would fail to pass by a majority of the votes of the two houses.This very canal bill, which had been referred to, passed by a very large majority. Mr. W. regretted that sickness prevented him from being present to vote against its passage, for he thought it too miserable a pittance to recommence the public works upon only $190,000. It would then be useless to provide that a majority might repass a bill, for that would make the ve. to power nugatory. Mr. W. agreed that this power might be abused, and it seemed throughout that gentlemen had been arguing against such abuse, instead of against the power itself. All power may be abused, but that is no argument against its existence. The Governor may abuse this power-the legislature may abuse its power; but if so, where is the remedy?He and they must go before the people up. on their acts. The Governor, when he vetoes a bill,must spread his reasons before the people, and they are astute enough to examine those reasons closely, and they will approve or condemn him as they are good or bad. It' the veto ar. rests the passage of a bad bill, it has a most salutary effect, and Mr. W. agreed with the gentleman from Herkimer, that it could only defer for a limited time the passage of a good bill.It may prevent for all time the passage of a bill injurious in its effects. He thought we had better allow the veto power to remain, even though it be abused, than to permit a bad bill to pass. We had had this veto power for seventy years and no practical evil had resulted. Evil might have ensued, if a bare majority had possessed the power to repass a bill. He would cite an instance, where both Houses had passed a bill which openly violated a solemn contract made by the state. The veto was there interposed, and the state saved from the odium of violating its own contract and its own constitution. He knew of no other instance when a veto had arrested the mere action of party; but if the majority principle was to prevail, that power would be useless to arrest such party legislation. He should therefore vote against the amendment of the gentleman from Otsego and in favor of that of his colleague. Mr. HOFFMAN said he would have no altercation with the gentleman. When the time came to speak upoi the abuses of legislative power, he would undertake to show that all he hall said had been in mercy, rather than in abuse. The gentleman had charged falsehood upon the Comptroller, and said he had wrongfully stated the amount of the canal debt. Mr. H. said, by the terms of the inquiry, the Comptroller was bound to state the amount of debt on the 1st of June, and he had given it truly on that day.He could not give it to us as it would stand on the 1st of July. Mr. H. said the charge against the Canal Commissioners in 1834, was equally unfounded. They had done all they could to carry out that law, and had only been driven from their work by the actual approach of winter. As to the funds in the hand of the Comptroller on the 1st of July, Mr. H. knew the fact to be, that that officer was compelled to rake and scrape the canals tolls up to the 22d of June to enable him to meet the amount due on the 1st of July. All the charges of the gentleman were unfounded. Mr. CHATFIELD followed, remarking that he would go with the gentleman from Herkimer, and as far as he, in imposing restrictions upon the Legislative power.- But that was not the question here. We were upon the veto power. Mr. C. had always regarded this as a relic of monarchical government, and as at present exercised inconsistent with the theory and practice of our own. He would not be guided in his action, by anything that was past. He should not review the vetoes of Gen. Jackson or any other Executive. He was here advocating the adoption of a democratic principle. If we were here to organize a new Constitution, wiLh no reference to precedent, no one, he apprehended, would advocate the incorporation of this provision into that instrument. He would now act as if we were thus situated. Mr. C. consid 289 ered the reference to ancient times as ont of A Lieutenant Governor shall be chosen at the same place. No analogy could be drawn between the time and for the same term. ~ 2. No person except a citizen of the United States people of Rome and of our own. These pow- shall be eligible to the office of Governor; nor shall any ers did not, as here, return at short and definite person be eligible to that office who has not attained periods to the people. In all the monarchies the age of thirty years, and who shall not have been of Europe, what had produced confusion and five years next preceding his election a resident within of Europe, wthis state. bloodshed, unless it was the effort of the people ~ 3. The Governor and Lieutenant-Governor shall to obtain some portion of the power? Refer- ue elected at the limes and places of choosing memence had been made to Runnyrnede. What did bers of the legislature. The persons respectively having t!he highest number of votes for Governor and the Barons there struggle for, except to contract Lieutenant-Governor shall be elected; but in case two and reduce the overshadowing veto power of or more shall have an equal and the highest number of the Crown? When we separated from the Bri- votes for Governor, or for Lieutenant-Governor, the tish Government, this veto power was reduced two houses of the legislature at its next annual session consttiional limits or ede shall, forthwith, by joint ballot, choose one of the said to constitutional limits. Mr. C. proceeded to persons so having an equal and the highest number of advocate a restriction of the veto power, as he votes for Governor or Lieutenant-Governor. had proposed. 4. The Governor shall be commander-in-chief of Mr. ST. JOHN moved the previous question, the military and naval forces of the State. He shall and it was seconded 41 to 26. previoushave power to convene the legislature (or the senate and it was seconded 41 to 26. I only) on extraordinary occasions. He shall communi. The main question was then ordered to be cate by message to the legislature at every session the put. condition of the state, atd recommend such matters The amendment of Mr. NICHOLAS to re- to them as lie shall judge expedient. He shall transact e n. all necessary business with the officers of government, store the provisions of the present constitution, civil and military. He shall expedite all such measures (allowing two-thirds of all present, instead of as may be resolved upon by the legislature, and shall two-thirds of all elected, to repass a bill) was take care that the laws are faithfully executed He ar to as follows. shall, at stated times. receive for his services a compagr ensation to be established by law which shall neither AYES-Messrs. Angel, Archer, Ayrault, H. Backus, be increased nor diminished after Lis election and duBaker, Bascom, Bouck, Bull, Cambreleng, R.Campbell, ring his continuance in office. jr,, Candee, Clark, Clyde, Crooker, Dana, Dodd, Du- 6 5 The Governor shall have power to grant rebois. Flanders, Forsyth, Gebhard, Graham, Greene, prleves, commutations and pardons after conviction, Hoffman, Hotchkiss, A. Huntington, Hyde, Jordan' for all offences except treason and cases of impeachKemble, Kingsley, Marvin, Maxwell, Murphy, Nellis, ment, upon such conditions, and with such restrictions Nicholas, Nicoll, Parish, Patterson, Perkins, Porter, and limitations as he may think proper, subject to such President, Riker, Salisbury, Sears, Shepard, Simmons, regulations as may be provided by law, relative to the E. Spencer, Stephens, Stetson, Stow, Strong, Swack- manner of applying for pardon. Upon conviction for hamer, Taggart, J. J. Taylor, Tilden, Warren, Water- treason, he shall have power to suspend the execution bury, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, Worden, Young-61. of the sentence, until the case shall be reported to the NAYS-Messrs. Brown, Brundage, Burr, Chatfield, legislature at its next meeting, when the legislature Conely, Cook, Cornell, Cuddeback, Danforth, Dorlon, shall either pardon, commute the sentence, direct the Harris, Hutchinson, Jones, Kirkland, Mann, McNitt, execution thereof, or grant further reprieve. He shall Miller, Morris, O'Conor, Penniman, Ruggles, Russell, annually communicate to the legislature each case of St. John, Shaver, Shaw, Sheldon, Smith W. H. Spencer, reprieve, commutation or pardon granted, stating the Stanton, Tallmadge, W. Taylor, Townsend, Tuthill, name of the convict, the crime of which he was conVache, W. B.4Wright, Yawger-36. victed, the sentence and its date, and the date of the Mr. CHATFIELD then moved his amend- commutation, pardon or reprieve. ~ 6. In case of the impeachment of the Governor, ment, allowing a majority of all the members or his removalfrom office, death, inability to discharge elected to pass a bill after a veto. the powers and duties of the said office, resignation or The same was lost as follows:- absence from the state, the powers and duties of the office shall devolve upon the Lieutenant-Governor, for AYES-Messrs. Archer, H. Backus, Bascom, Boucl, the residue of the term, or until the disability shall Burr, Candee, Chatfield, Cook, Crooker, Dorlon, Geb- cease. But when the Governor, shall with the consent hard, Harris, Hawley, Parish, Patterson, Penniman, of the legislature, be out of the state in time of war Salisbury, Shaver,. Spencer, W. H. Spencer, Taggart, at the head of a military force thereof, he shall conWarren, Willard, W. B. Wright, Yawger-25. tinue commander-in-chiet of all the military force of NAYS-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, Brown, Brundage, the state. Bull, Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr., Clark, Clyde, ~ 7. The Lieutenant-Governor shall possess the Conely, Cornell, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforth, Dodd, same qualifications of eligibility for office as the GoDubois, Flanders, Forsyth, Graham, Greene, Hart, vernor. He shall he President of the Senate, but shall Hoffman, Hotchkliss, A. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, have only a casting vote therein. If during a vacancy Jones, Jordon, Kemble, Kingsley, Kirkland, Mann, Mc- of the office of Governor, the Lieuenant-Governor Nitt, Marvin, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, shall be impeached, displaced, resign, die, or become Nicholas, Nicoll, O'Conor, Perkins, Porter, President, incapable of performing the duties of his office, or be Richmond, Riker, Ruggles, Russell, St. John, Sears, absent from the state, the President of the Senate Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Simmons, Smith, Stanton, shall act as Governor until the vacancy be filled, or Stephens, Stetson, Stow, Strong, Swackhamer, Taft, the disability shall cease. Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Tilden, Town- ~ s. The Lieutenant-Governor shall, while acting as send, Tuthill, Vache, Waterbury, Wood, Worden, such, receive a compensation which shall be fixed by Young-74. law. and which shall not be increased or diminished Mr. MANN moved a reconsideration of the during his continuance in office. vote on the amendment of Mr. CHOLAS. Laid 9. Every bill which shall have passed the Senate vote on te amenment of Mr. NICHOLAS. Laid and Assembly, shall, before it becomes a law, bo preover. senwed to the Governor; if he approve, he shall sign it; The section was then adopted. but if not, he shall return it with his objections to that So the whole Article on the Executive Depart- house in which it shall have originated, who shall en. ter the objections at large on their journal, and proment was finally agreed to, as follows:- ceed to reconsider it. If, after such reconsideration, ARTItwo-thirds of the members present shall agree to pass ARTICLE -the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, On the election, tenure of office, compensation, powers t th other hou b which it shll ikewis e objection and duties, (except the power to appoint or nominate toand duties,) of the Governor and ieutenappoint overnoater. sidered, and if approved by two-thirds of the members to office) of the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor. present, it shall become a law notwithstanding the 1. The Executive power of the state shallbe vested objections of the Governor. But in all cases, the in a Governor, who shal' hold his office for two years. votes of both houses shall be determined by yeas and 19 290 nays, and the names voting for and against the bill action of the Convention might lead to the neshall be entered on the journal of each house respect- cssity of some alterations inthis report moved ively If any bill shall not be returned by the Governorn within ten days ('Sundays excepted) after it shall have to lay the report on the table, and that it be been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like printed. manner as if e had signed it, unless the legislature Before any question was taken the Conven shall by their adjournment, orevent its return; intion one which case it shall not be a law. tion adjourned. Mr. PATTERSON suggesting that subsequent TUESDAY, JULY 21. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. KENNEDY. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. BANKS AND BANKING. On motion of Mr. BROWN, the Convention Mr. CAMBRELENG submitted the follow. resolved itself into committee of the whole, Mr. ing propositions as amendments which he should PATTERSON in the chair, and took up the reoffer to the appropriate article of the constitu- port of standing committee number one, on the tion, when the Convention should be in commit- apportionment, election, tenure of office, and tee of the whole thereon- compensation of the legislature. t The first section was read as follows, and it All incorporated companies and associations exer. The first section was read as follows, and it cising banking powers shall be subject to visitationwas passed over without amendment: and examination at the instance of their shareholders, ~ 1. The legislative power of the state shall be vest. or of their creditors, under regulations to be estab. ed in a enate and Assembly. lished by the legislature; and in case of the failure of any such incorporation or association, to discharge its The next section was read as follows:debts or liabilities, or of any of its members to dis- ~ 2. The Senate shall consist of thirty-two members, chirge the debts for which they may be personally lia- and the senators shall be chosen for two years. The ble as members of such incorporation or association, Assembly shall consist of one hundred and twentyprovision shall be made for the speedy and equitable eight members, who shall be chosen annually. settlement of the affairs of such incorporation or association and for dissolving the same. Mr. W. TAYLOR said the only alteration The legislature shall provide by law for the exclu- which the committee had made in this section, sion of the notes of Banks of other states from circu- was to substitute two for four years, as the lation within this state. The legislature shall limit the aggregate amount of term of service of senators. It would be proper Bank notes to be issued by all the Banks and joint stock that he should say, that as the committee had associations in this state, now existing or which may resolved on the plan of single districts, they be hereafter established deemed it proper that the term of senators should They were committed to the committee of be shorter. This and the following section were the whole, and ordered to be printed. so much involved, as necessarily to some extent MAJORITY LEGISLATION. to require to be consideted together. He would Mr. M N o d te f g r n, say however that by the present plan the senaMr. MANN offered the following resolution,ors were chosen every four years-one being tors were chosen every four years-one being which was adopted:- chosen in each district annually, by which means Resolved, That it be referred to the committee No. there is an annual expression of the sentiments 2, on the powers and duties of the legislature,except as of the e to that branch of the legislature. to matters otherwise referred, to consider the propri-le to that branch of the legislature. ety and expediency of reporting a section to the con- If the single senate district system were adopt. stitution requiring the vote of a majority of all the ed without changing the term, there would be a members elected to (both branches) the legislature to lapse of three years, during which the popular Opas any APPRPRAT R lw sentiment could not be expressed by an election. rLOA d APPROPRATIONS FOr CLLE S,. But the committee decided that term too long. Mr. SWACKHAMER offered the following, It was true there were some advantages in the which was referred to the committee on common four year system. The senate was designed schools, after a few words from Messrs. as a sort of check on the more popular branch STETSON, NICOLL, WLLARD, A. W. of the legislature, and hence it was advisable YOUNG, and SWACKAMER:- that that body should be composed of a less Resolved, That the Comptroller be respectfully re- number, should have more stability in its organ. quested to furnish this Convention a statement of the ization, and should have some constantly pre. amount of money or property appropriated given, or ization, and should have some constantly pre. loaned to the several Colleges, Seminaries, institutes, sent possessing experience in past legislation. and Academies of this State, and the University of the But the advantages of the single district sys. city of New York, since 1821 And, also, the amount ten, and shorter terms, it was believed, would appropriated to these institutions respectively from counterbalance the loss of the other advan. the Literature Fund, during the same period. And, ascounterbalance te loss of the oter advan. far as practicable, what proportion of the sum so ap. tages. It was important that there should propriated has been used for the benefit of females. not be so long an interval as four years RESTRICTION ON AMENDMENTS, from the election of a senator and the exMr HAWLEY offered the following- piration of his office. A senator might enter. Mr. HAWLEY offered the following ti o c t well-known wishes tain opinions contrary to the well-known wishes Resolved, That no amendment to a proposition of his constituents. He might have selfish de. which shall have been considered in committee of theof his constituents He might have sefish de whole, shall be in order in the Convention, unless the signs, contrary to the public interests, and it was substance of the amendment shall have been offered possible he might be corrupt; and if the period of and decided in committee of the whole. four years were to stand as the term of his ofAfter a few vwords from several gentlemen, it fice, the people would cease to trouble themwas referred to the committee on rules, selves about him; or they would indulge in use 291 less regrets that they had no means of reaching him till the term of his office expired. By les. sening the term one-half, and adopting the single district system; they brought the senator more immediately within the knowledge and observation of his constituents. The people could reach him if they desired, sooner, by half, than by the present system, and still they pre. served the essential feature of a senate, stability in its organization, and experience in one portion of its members. One-half every year, too, would come in fresh from the people, and from all parts of the state, the plan being to take them from alternate districts, and hence they got annually a fresh infusion of public sentiment, intermingled with stability and experience. Mr. RICHMOND moved to strike out two and insert nine, so as to increase the number of senators from thirty-two to thirty-nine. He also proposed to amend by striking out two and in. serting three, to make the term of service three years instead of two. He agreed in part with the chairman of the committee, in reference to the propriety of bringing senators oftener before the tribunal of public opinion; but he thought a change of one year would be sufficient for all practical purposes, especially as it would, with his other amendment, be accompanied with other advantages. His purpose in increasing the number of senators from thirty-two to thirty-nine, was not so much to have a larger body, as to do more equal justice to all parts of the state in tne distribution of senators. On looking over the report of the committee, he had come to the conclusion (although he would give the committee credit for having done the best they could in reference to the particular number of which the Senate was composed,) that greater justice would be done by increasing the number to thirty-nine. He had prepared an apportionment to demonstrate this position; but not expecting this subject to be taken up to-day, he had it not at hand. He would however produce it hereafter. It might be supposed that by an increase of seven senators, there would be a startling increase of expense. But on this point he would remark, that it was understood that the Senate was not to meet as a court of errors two or three times a year, and charge fees for travelling and constructive travelling. They were only to meet as a part of the legislature, once a year. Hence the expense would be less than heretofore, even with an increase of senators. Mr. CHATFIELD should be obliged to vote against this proposition, because he preferred another. The plan which he should advocate was to give to the legislature power at any time after an enumeration of the inhabitants of the state, to increase the number of senators, to any number not exceeding 48. Mr. RICHMOND thought the public would expect them definitely to settle the number. As to the term of three years, the committee would perceive that it was a number which would afford facilities for electing annually precisely one third, three times 13 being 39. He could find no other number that would so well answer that purpose, and by which the population would be so equally represented; and it was desirable to get an equality of senatorial representation as near as possible without dividing counties. Mr. BURR intimated that he should vote against the proposition of the gentleman from Genesee, though he was in favor of increasing the number eventually. He preferred the prop. osition of the gentleman from Otsego. Mr. WHITE objected to the change from 32 to 39, inasmuch as it would not do justice to New York city, which was entitled to one-eighth of the representation. He cared not whether it was 38 or 40, or any other number by which New York could have her equitable representation. Mr. TAGGART said as the ratio was 60,000, New York would have her share and a little over. Mr. A. W. YOUNG hoped the Convention would favor the proposition of the gentleman from Genessee (Mr. RICHMOND). He believed in mostof the states there was not so great a disproportion between the Senate and the House of Representatives as in this state. In some states the Senate was half the size of the popular branch. He believed the people would be satisfied with an increase, and thirty-nine was small enough. There was now an inequality in the representation of some districts of 10,000 or 12,000 too many or too little. If they could arrive at a greater equality, he thought that would be a strong reason for increasing the number of senators. Mr. WATERBURY intimated that the congressional districts might be adopted. Mr. RUSSELL desired a division of the quesrion, so that the vote might be first taken on the number of senators. Mr. TALLMADGE inquired if it was intended to propose any change in the number of the members of Assembly? Mr. W. TAYLOR replied in the negative. Mr. TALLMADGE desired to continue thir. ty-two as the number of senators; nor had he any desire that the four year term should be abandoned. It this government should be assailed, and its liberties invaded. it would come in moments of popular excitement. The present number of 32 multiplied by 4, gives a ratio equal to 128, the number of members of the As. sembly, and that reason influenced the Convention of 1821, instead of retaining the number of 125, of which the Assembly once consisted.There were originally four districts returning eight senators; but the districts were divided, making eight with four senators each, 4 times 8 being 32, and 4 times 32 made 128, the number of the other House. He was opposed to too large a representative body, because great num. bers led to disorder in the work of legislation. Even with this body of but 128 members, by continued encroachments of conversation with each other, writing letters, and sending off packages, it was almost impossible for them to do their business; and he thought there would be great wisdom in adhering to the number as it now stands in both houses. Mr. PENNIMAN preferred an increase which would give a representation for the large frac. tions which were found in some counties. He also dissented from the position of the gentleman from Dutchess, that small bodies did the work of legislation better than large ones. In Massachusetts, with a body of from five hundred to six hundred members, and in New 292 Hampshire, with a large body, the work was branch of the legislature. He said he should done as well and as promptly as elsewhere; and like to have some good, substantial reason why he had observed in this body, that with eighty they should make this increase in that co-ordi. or ninety members present, there was not so nate branch of the legislature, for he ventured much progress made as when the Convention to say that the people had neither asked for nor was full. desired it. Mr. BASCOM had sometimes been impatient Mr. SALISBURY felt it was due to himself at the delay he had observed there, but now he that he should briefly explain the vote he was confessed he regretted to see a disposition to about to give on the proposition before the comhurry along this matter without giving it due mittee. This was one of those subjects on which consideration. He had no disposition to debate the committee themselves were not entirely the great principle involved in the question un- agreed. He dissented from the majority of the der consideration. Representation-and how committee as to the number of senators, and he large it should be and how it should be ap- supposed his judgment on this matter was govpropriated among the people,-were questions erned by considerations in anticipation of the of the first importance in a free government.- future action of this body in reference to the duThey were questions which, he trusted, were ties of the Senate. He supposed the Senate was not to be settled in this body, without care- to be a single branch of the Legislature, having ful deliberation. Without having had any duties exclusively of legislation, and enopportunity for the necessary examination and tirely separated from the judiciary department. consideration of the subject that lie hoped oth-. If this was to be the case, he believed that their ers might have improved, he had no wish to en- expenses would not be much increased by an inter at large into the debate which he hoped crease of their number. He believed that their would be had, but he was willing to avow him- number might be increased to as many as 48, self in favor of a liberal increase of represen- without any increase of the expenses, and he tation in both branches of the legislature. He should favor such an increase, although he was would hardly be satisfied with less than forty- disposed to favor the proposition to leave with eight in the upper branch. Most of the other the Legislature the question of an increase of States had provided a much larger representation representation. The number was usually fixed than we had. The framers of the constitution with an idea to convenience, as the whole body of 1777, seemed to contemplate a far larger re- of the people cannot meet to enact their own presentation than that provided by the constitution laws. As connected with the judicial depart. of 1821. The limits by the constitution of 1777, ment of the government, the number of 32 was were 100 for the senate and 300 for the House, supposed to be the best; but under the new orand the framers could hardly have anticipated ganization of the Senate, he was inclined to bethe jncrease of population that has become mat- lieve that a larger number would be advisable, ter of history. The report of the committee and that no increase of expense would be ocprovides for continuing the representation deem- casioned by it. ed sufficient in 1821, for at least half a century. Mr. PERKINS was of opinion, that a moderWould gentlemen consider the actual increase ate increase of the number of members of the of the constituency up to the present period, and Senate and Assembly, would be advisable, but that which must be anticipated during the exis-. he did not think a very large increase would be tence of the constitution we are framing? The either desirable or acceptable. Perhaps it would purity of legislation required an increase of the be well to clothe the legislature with a discreupper branch. How many important proposi- tionary power within a certain limit to fix the tions had been adopted or defeated by 17 men number of senators, so that there should not be in a full Senate, and by a smaller number when less than 36 nor more than 48. He was also in the Senate was not full, too small a number to favor of a term of three years instead of two. As settle the destinies and interests of this great the Senate occupied the position of an advisory state. He should oppose the number proposed branch of the legislature, the members should by the gentleman from Genesee, in the hope that have some experience in legislation. But if one when the matter came to be duly considered, a half were to go out every year,this design would larger number for the Senate would be agreed measureably fail. The plan of the committee upon. required great disproportion in the apportionMr. STRONG desired the question to be ta- meat. There would be a difference in the popken, first, simply on striking out. ulation of the districts of about 32,000. So Mr. RICHMOND had no objection. great a disproportion should not be sanctioned Some conversation ensued on the mode of put- by the Convention, unless it was absolutely una. ting the question. voidable. He trusted they were not here to arMr. W. TAYLOR said he saw the committee range districts with a political object in view. were about to take the vote. He had hoped that We then should be careful how we set an exthere would first have been more discussion.- ample which might be grossly abused by some He then proceeded to enquire if a change in the future legislature. number of senators had been called for by the Mr. TILDEN thought there was a defect in the people, and said he thought no such change was report of the committee. He would be in favor called for. He pointed to the disparity in con- of bringing the people as near to their constiuents gress between the two houses, and in the state as possible, but he did not wish to violate anoth. legislatures, to show that the senate, as a sort of er and important principle. He would hesitate check on the popular branch, and as an advisory considerably before he would vote to elect senbody, was universally deemed best adapted for its ators biennially by single districts. His own purposes, when much smaller than the other| opinion was, that a fair compromise between the 293 propositions submitted would be to make each district elect two senators and for two years, and iner^caso the number. He did not perceive the reason why the senators should be elected for a longer term than the governor He was not prepared to debate the question, but before the adoption of an important principle he wished to give his dissent from the proposition before the committee. Mr. STRONG could not see the applicability of the gentleman's objection. The idea that this proposition cut off the right of the people to vote, was strange. He should vote in favor of the motion to strike out and to increase the number of Senators. He could see no force in the reasoning of the chairman that the Senate should be just one-fourth as numerous as the Assembly, nor that a small body would be a greater check upon the Assembly than a larger one. He thought the reverse of this would be found to be true. Mr. CHATFIELD did not rise to debate the question, but to say, that, perhaps, it might be found expedient to refer back this report to the committee for the purpose of completing the apportionment, if the number of members should be changed, and the single district system retained; or so to alter it as to leave this matter to the legislature. There were in some counties fractions as large as 16,000, and in some a deficiency of that amount. He enumerated various counties in which these disproportions existed, and said these fractions were too large and should be avoided.. Mr. W. TAYLOR had spoken before to the single proposition of the gentleman from Genesee, but since that time other suggestions had been made, to which he desired to say a word. He regretted and so did the committee, that such inequalities existed. They could be remedied, should it be determined to cut up counties or depart from the rule that the districts should not consist of contiguous territory. The committee thought this would be unadvisable. He believed if any reform had been called for by the people it was the single district system. Mr. T. showed how the inequalities could be remedied. For instance, Dutchess and Columbia were put together, making a large excess, while Rensselaer stood alone, with about an equal deficiency. Now cut Columbia in two, and you would make two very nearly equal districts. Or place Schenectady with Rensselaer, and then you would equalize the districts. So Richmond might be placed with Suffolk and Queens, leaving Kings to stand alone. But gentlemen would find, take any number they please-39, 40 or 48 -equal difficulty in getting rid of these excesses and deficiencies. He did not believe the Convention would be in favor of dividing counties, for that would leave to legislatures hereafter the power to adopt the system of gerrymandering for political effect. Mr. HARRIS did not feel great solicitude about this question, yet he should vote in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Genesee, (Mr. RICHMOND.) He would not greatly increase the number, but seven would not be an objectionable increase. He would not divide counties; he would prefer rather some inequalities in representation, because such were our associa tions in counties that he apprehended the people would prefer that they should not be divided. He preferred the proposition of the gentleman from Genesee, because the slight examination he had given to it had satisfied him that by fixing that number of senalors, they should be able to accommodate a greater number of counties as single districts. For example, by the report of the committee, only five counties could be made separate senatorial districts, while by adopting thirty-nine as the number, they might have one-third of the districts made up of single counties, and of the remaining twothirds, with a single exception, the senatorial districts would be made up of two counties each. Essex, Clinton and Franklin alone would be the exception of which he had spoken. This was an important consideration. He was in favor of bringing the representation as nearly home to the people as was practicable, and when they could form senatorial districts by single counties he thought it would be desirable though there might be some inequalities in the ratio of representation. Since the discussion had been going on he had taken up the report of the committee, and he had selected the counties in which the plan of the gentleman from Genesee might be carried out. He found that single districts might be made of Kings, Albany, Rensselaer, St. Lawrence, Oneida, Jefferson, Onondaga, Monroe, Otsego, Erie, Orange, Osw go and Cayuga. Double districts might be made out of the following counties:-Dutchess and Putnam, Steuben and Chemung, Suffolk and Queens, Westchester and Rockland, Ulster and Sullivan, Columbia and Greene, Delaware and Schoharie, Saratoga and Schenectady, Washington and Warren, Fulton and Montgomery, Herkimer and Lewis, Chenango and Broome, Madison and Cortland, Tompkins and Tioga, Seneca and Wayne, Ontario and Yates,Livingston and Allegany, Genesee and Wyoming, Orleans and Niagara, Chautauque and Cattaraugus. He did not say this was the best division, but he had only drawn it hastily to show how much more favorable would be the proposed amendment, than that of the committee. Mr. RUSSELL concurred with the views of the gentleman from Albany. They were sound, and were based upon sound principles. He was of opinion that the committee had made a great mistake in limiting the number to 32. By single districts for 32 Senators, as reported by the committee, 5 single counties constitute single districts, viz: Erie, deficient of rep. population 6,314 Monroe, do. do. 11,399 Onondaga, do. do. 7,66 Rensselaer, do. do. 16,314 Oneida, with a surplus of 8,711 Smaller counties united in single districts pre. sent large excesses, as Cayuga and Wane, an excess of 14,547 Madison and Oswego, do. 11,837 Dutchess and Columbia, do. 16,077 By adopting forty as the number of Senators, twelve counties may each constitute a single district, with small a excess, except in a single county, to wit: Erie, excess of 8,671 Monroe, do 3,586 Onondaga, do. 7,419 294 4 Oneida, do. 18,696 Jefferson, do, 2,635 Kings, do. 1,611 Albany, do. 8,632 Dutchess, with deficiency of 8,734 St. Lawrence; do. 1,374 Otsegf, do. 10,239 Steuben, do. 9,229 Rensselaer. do. 1,339 The smaller counties can easily be arranged in single districts. He advocated at some length the necessity of adopting the ratio so as to make greater equality with representation. Mr. NICOLL said the great question involv. ed in striking out the number thirty-two was one of principle-that of making the representation of the Houses more nearly accord with population. He had no hesitation in saying that he was in favor of having a much smaller number of senators than representatives, and would have no objection to forty, provided there could be a proper ratio devised under that number.It should be taken into consideration that the population of the state was constantly changing in its character, but if any appropriate division can be made he believed it was proper that this Convention should revise the present system.Great inequality might soon be found in the wards in the city of New York, for there were wards there, the population of which in five years had increased 18,000, and very soon they might each be entitled to be a single senatorial district. He thought in the arrangement of the districts, the character of the population should be taken into view, and that it was of vital importance that the people each year should have a vote in the choice of a senator, for he desired that public sentiment should be annual. ly brought to bear on that body. Mr. RHOADES was in favor of the proposi. tion of the committee, dividing the state into sin gle Senate districts. On no question had the people of the state more distinctly expressed their approbation. But they had appeared to be perfectly satisfied with the present number of which the Senate was composed, and he could find no reason why what was well enough and satisfactory should be disturbed. If a change was to be made, he did not see why the number should not be increased to 128, to an equality with the Assembly. The people of the state had lost their confidence in one branch of the Judiciary -the Court of Errors; and one reason for it was, he believed, the large number of which it was composed. But they had not lost confidence in either branch of the legislature. They were uniformly found in this state to have the greatest respect for the Senate in Congress, because it was composed of the smaller number, who were able to conduct their business with dignity and decorum, free from the confusion and high feeling often found in the larger body. While things were perfectly satisfactory, he hoped they woald be allowed to remain as they existed. Mr. STETSON advocated an increase of the number of Senators, as being called for by justice and propriety. As it was, too much importance was often attached to the vote of a single Senator. He was in favor of this, because he was sent here to secure single Senate districts if he could. He would bring home that body to the constituency, as near as possible, and not leave it to the more fragmentary responsibility of the present system. If it was to be settled that we were to have but 32 Senators, he should do all he could to make all the Senators elected every year, or else make double districts. He stated at considerable length his objections to the plan presented by the committee. He would much prefer twenty double districts, with one Senator to be elected every year. This would allow the whole people to vote on the election of Senators every year. He would also go for an increase of the number of the Assembly. He pointed out the injustice done by the present constitution to such counties as his own, where a large fraction were deprived of all representation, while counties, not having half its number of inhabitants, still had one representative. This could only be remedied by an increase of the Assembly. Mr. RICHMOND would not be in favor of increasing either the Senate or Assembly, if we could reach anything like equal representation. True, there had been but little feeling as to this particular point, but there had been deep feeling as to this unequal representation. The gentleman from Onondaga was opposed to an increase. This was because Onondaga could be better accommodated, as the present apportionment suited that county better than any other. Hence the gentleman was in favor of letting well enough alone. Mr. W. TAYLOR disclaimed being actuated by any such selfish consideration. Mr. RICHMOND had referred to the gentleman's colleague. Mr. RHOADES begged leave to adopt the disclaimer of his colleague, as his own. Mr. RICHMOND, notwithstanding this, hoped he might be permitted to point out the inequality of Onondaga as compared with other counties. Wyoming and Orleans had together a population equal to three-fourths of Onondaga, and yet had but half as many representatives on this floor. He also instituted a comparison be. tween those counties and New York, showing a still greater inequality. 'He wanted to get rid of this inequality, and if no other mode of doing so could be devised, he would consent to the division of counties. Mr. W. B. WRIGHT said that as a member of committee number one it was proper that he should present the reasons which induced him to differ in some respects from a majority of that committee. The chairman (Mr. W. TAYLOR) stated on the introduction of the report that it had been agreed to by a majority, but that each member regarded himself as not committed to all its provisions, and that even those who consented to it, felt at liberty to change their views, if upon argument or reflection, there seemed to be a necessity for doing so. The chairman might also have added, if he did not, that it was so understood in committee. Now with the lead. ing principles of the report he did most cheer. fully concur; it was with the details only that he, in part. differed. The policy of single districts he considered as conclusively settled by the popular judgment, and that the Convention would fail to carry out the clearly and fully expressed wish of the people of the state, should any other system of legislative representation be adopted.. In committee he proposed an in. 295 crease of the number of senators to 48. He regarded the present number of 32 as too limited for a legislative body. As had been frequently remarked, the Senate as at present constituted was to large and unwieldy for a court and too contracled in No.s for exclusively legislative purposes, If it be, as is generally believed, that the Convention will strip the Senate of its judicial functions, if not of all other powers except those of an exclusive legislative character, then, in fixing upon a number, due importance should be given to that fact, for whether the number should be thirty-two or a larger one, in his opinion, depended in a considerable degree on the powers conferred on the body. Upon the supposition that the court for the correction of errors as at present organized, was to be abrogated, he submitted that it would be expedient to increase the number. He had recently been examining the constitution of other states, and found that in a majority of them, (out of New England) the proportion between senators and representatives was as one to three. In several of the states-for example, in Indiana and North Carolina-the proportion was as one to two. Although it was a principle in two or three states, he was unwilling to adopt the suggestion of the gentleman from Otsego (Mr. CHATFIELD) to leave to the legislature the power of fixing the actual number of senators intermediate a minimum and maximum number established by the constitutution, for the legislature should not be permitted to exercise a discretion that might be abused in subserving partizan purposes. He would not only increase, but fix the increase definitely in the constitution. What, said Mr. W., has created the desire with the people for single districts? Why have complaints been made in relation to the present arrangement? Because an important object is to be gained by bringing the senator home to his constituents,-by making him familiar with his constituency, and enabling him to acquire an accurate knowledge of their peculiar condition and wants. The county which he had the honor to represent was situated in the second senatorial district-the district was extensive in territory-and he doubted whether two of the senators now respresenting her had ever set foot within the limits of Sullivan, and certain it is that those senators were found, last winter, in these halls, directly opposing, by their votes, her dearest interests. The larger the number of senators the more limited will be the constituency, and consequently the more familiar will the representative be with its peculiar interests. The only objection, said Mr. W., urged in committee against increasing the number, was the difficulty of apportionment by counties.This difficulty arose in the larger counties, such as Oneida, Onondaga, Albany and Erie; when by adopting 48 as the number of senators,!arge fractions would remain unrepresented.It is, however, to be observed that this apparent inequality exists in those counties containing cities, in which the population is rapidly increasing, and perhaps upon another enumeration of the inhabitants of the State, by that rapid increase the difficulty would be obviated; for in a subsequent section of this report, the committee provide that in the formation of sen ate districts a county may be divided, when enc titled to two or more Senators, so that if the principle of preserving county lines in the arrangement of the districts, is important-and it seemed to be so regarded by a majority of the committee-it may with the number of fortyeight, perhaps, be more successfully carried out upon the next census, than with a smaller number. But wherein exists the imperative necessity of preserving county lines in the arrangement of districts, if by so doing a fair represention may be defeated? What is there in these arbitrary divisions of the state, that so much importance should be attached to them? Gentlemen say that by a division you break up those natural distinct relations which exist in counties. This is not so, unless partizan relations are meant. And if by a division of counties there is a tendency to break up these, it is a conclu. sive reason for setting about the important work without delay. All know that at the capital of these counties, (especially where they are cities,) a political regency has grown up, who assume the control of political matters, and the distribution of offices-who pack your county conventions, and subsist themselves, in a great measure, upon official spoils. If by disregarding county lines in the establisnment of senatorial districts, these regencies would be broken up, and these demagogues shorn of their abused power, the reason was potent with him for disregarding them. If counties are divided, said Mr. W., unquestionably a more equal representation could be obtained. No such disparity would exist as may be found in the report of the committee.Have gentlemen ascertained the fact that it is proposed by that report to elect seventeen senators by a representative population of 1,169,433 and to elect the remaining fifteen by a population of 1,230,109-making the constituency of fifteen senators over 60,000 more than that of seventeen. Is there any equality of representation in this result of adhering to county lines? And so it will be to some extent upon the selection of any number, although, in his opin. ion, the larger the number the less numerous are the cases of inequality. It is proposed that the counties of Dutchess and Columbia, with a representative population of 91,862, shall elect one senator, whereas Suffolk and Queens with a population of 58,657 shall also elect one.Should this disparity exist, if there can be found any remedy for it? If by dividing counties, or by fixing the number of 48, or by adopting the proposition of the gentleman from Albany (Mr. HARRIS), this inequality could be obviated, he was disposed to take either course. He had left at his room, not expecting that this question would come up this morning, a statement shewing that by taking a number beyond forty, a more equal representation could be had, even upon the principle of adhering to county lines, and that more single counties would be entitled la elect senators than under the proposition of the committee. By their report, out of the city of New York, but four counties constitute senatorial districts within themselves, whereas with the number of forty-eight, the counties of Kings, Dutchess, Albany, Rensselaer, St. Law. rence, Jefferson, Orange, Steuben, Otsego, Os 296 wego, Cayuga, Chautauque, and perhaps Moth. that the increase of the number of senators Tn-. ers, would each be entitled to a senator. So al- volved the necessity of increasing the Assem. so, if the report is closely examined, it will be bly. He (Mr. W.) did not see that by increasperceived, that it is proposed to elect more than ing the smaller branch of the legislature, it ne. one-third of the senators, from counties cesarily followed that there should be an increase in which large cities are embraced. For exam. of the larger. Suppose the Senate is increased ple, five from the city and county of New York, to forty-eight, wherin exists the stern necesone from the county of Kings, embracing the sity of increasing the Assembly? He was ready city of Brooklyn, one from the county of Alba- to act with the gentleman from Clinton (Mr. ny, embracing the Capital. one from the county STETSON) as to an increase of the Assembly.of Oneida, embracing the city of Utica, one He believed that an inequality of representafrom the county of Monroe, embracing the city tion existed in that body, and if it could be reof Rochester, one from the county of Rensselaer, moved by an increase of the number, he would embracing the city of Troy, and one from the go for such increase; but he did not think there county of Erie, embracing the city of Buffalo. was such magic in the increase of the Senate as Eleven senators, (more than one-third) would would naturally and irresistibly lead to be elected by such counties. Those counties, if an increase of the other house. He the number of thirty-two be adopted, have now was satisfied that in representation, great in some instances but a small fractional excess, inequalities existed in the Assembly. The and in others a large fractional deficiency. The county of Wyoming, with a population greatlargest fractional excesses are to be found in the er now than that of Genesee, had one mem. rural counties. Yet a majority of the commit- ber, whilst Genesee had two. Clinton with a tee, instead of adopting a number which would population more than Richmond and Putnam leave fractional deficiencies in the agricultural combined, had but one member, whilst those counties where it is not expected the represen- counties were represented by two. He would tative population will rapidly increase, they go with the gentleman from Clinton in any reahave chosen that number which will leave lit- sonable way to lessen the disparity which exist. tie or no fractional excess in those counties, ed in the representation. He was first, howevwhere had it been done, would, in connection er, for an increase of the number of senators to with the rapid increase of their population, up. 48. If the number was fixed at this mark, with on another enumeration of the inhabitants of single districts, numbering from one to fortythe state, have entitled them to two senators. eight, and leaving with the legislature the divi. The chairman, said Mr. W., had said that sion of the districts, there could be no doubt that the reason why a majority of the committee had that body would, as far as possible, preserve not proposed an increase of the number of sen- county lines; indeed there would be no necessiators, was because the people had not demanded ty in more than three or four instances of disit. If the Convention should decide to adopt regarding them. He would not, however, by only such amendments as the people of the the constitution make it imperative upon the le. whole state had demanded, he believed that the gislature to preserve the integrity of these lines, members of this body had as well adjourn now, and thus refuse to carry out the system-of sinand go totheir homes. But havethey not asked gle districts and equal representation. This for it? He could not speak of public sentiment convention should set an example in regard to in the county of Onondaga, but in the southern this, and show to that body that equality of re. part of the state an increase had been frequent- presentation is of more importance than the ly suggested. Besides, the people have loudly mere preservation of countylines. He would called for single senate districts, and if in car- go for the best principle upon which a proper rying out that principle a necessity arises for in- division of representation could be effected, and creasing the number of senators, then, in effect, if it could be done without breaking over the an increase is one of those distinctive proposi- lines of counties, let it be so done; but if not, tions, marked in advance, with the popular as. then let thoselines be disregarded. The great sent. The Chairman (Mr. W. TAYLOR) also had ends to be secured, were single senate districts, said that an increase of the number of senators and equality in representation. would involve an increase of the expenses of Mr. A. W. YOUNG said if there was any this branch of the government. But in consid. member who should feel an interest in this ering and settling a grave question which is to quetion, it was himself And his constituents, effect the state, for good or evil, whilst the con. also, felt a deep interest. The county of Wy. stitution exists, a trifling matter of expense oming had an unrepresented fraction of 12,00, seemed to him of no account. However, by almost equal to that of three others in the state abolishing the Court for the Correction of Er- which had one member each. He referred to rors, would not the expenses of the Senate be the present apportionment to show the great indecreased, even with the number of forty-eight? equalities of representation-mentioning to vari. He had no doubt of it. So also the Chairman ous counties in illustration. Some had very had stated that the committee were opposed to large surplusses, while in others there were even dividing counties, because it would lead to a greater deficiencies. This evil should be reme. system of gerrymandering. If the districts died. It could be donein a manner by increaswere formed of contiguous territory, he really ing the Senate. He should vote for such in. could not see how such a result could be pro- crease, believing it wise and safe for the people. duced. There was certainly more danger of the If there was danger from corruption in the le. adoption of such a system by adhering to coun- gislature, the greater the body the less would ty lines, than by disregarding them. The gen. that danger be. The people desired a more tleman from Onondaga (Mr. RHOADES) had said equal representation, and this could only be done 297 by an increase of representatives. There m:ght be counties well enough now, but that was no reason why others should longer suffer from their present grievances. He believed this state had a less comparative number of repre. sentatives than any other state, and he would therefore favor an increase. Mr. R. CAMPBELL defended the report of the committee, which had been assailed by the gentleman from St Lawrence (Mr. RUSSELL.)He said that if any one fact should be prominent in this discussion, relative to the duty of this Convention, it was the fact that complaints had so long been made of misrepresentation in the legislative bodies. He referred to the in. structions given by the nominating conventions in relation to this subject, as a-n indication of the popular will. The districts as now organ. ized, was a system of misrepresentation, and not of representation. Some of them embraced a territory Qf some 200 or 300 miles, and it could not be supposed that one elector in 100 could be acquainted with their senatorial candidates.Hence the single senate district system had been adopted by the committee. He also examined the propriety of the system of biennial elec. tions, and the question respecting the division of county lines. He was strongly opposed to the division of counties. The counties had for certain purposes, local governments, and very extensive legislative and criminal jurisdiction, and it was anticipated to give them still more.Their limits should not, then, be arbitrarily disregarded for the purpose of forming election districts. He illustrated his positions at great length, and discussed several collateral questions in reply to preceding speakers. Mr. RICHMOND here varied his motion so as to strike out 32. Mr. W. TAYLOR in reply to Mr. HARRIS, said he had looked over that gentleman's apportionment since the debate had been going on, and he found that the aggregate excesses and deficiencies were greater under that than under the plan of the committee. And he ventured to say that you might take any other number proposed, and the inequalities would be found to be as great, if not greater, than under the plan of the committee. In regard to the largest deficiency, Suffolk and Queens, he proposed to add Richmond, which would reduce the inequality then down to 3000. But divide the state as you would, and there would be inequalities-and he felt justified in saying that the committee's plan did not produce as great inequalities as either the plans of the gentlemen from Albany or Genesee. So that the idea of getting rid ot in. equalities by increasing the number of senators, was fallacious. If gentlemen had other objects, that presented another view of the question.But with the correction alluded to, he believed the committe's plan would be found to present fewer inequalities than under any other, nnless we cut up counties and towns, which he presumed no one intended. Mr. DANA said a blind man, on being asked how he could walk safely, replied that when he raised his foot, he found a safe place before he put it down again. With the report of the committee before him, he could see and understand the whole plan. But to change the number to i 39 or 48, he could not at once determine what the deficiencies and excesses would be. Per. haps if we had spent less time in talking and more in examining the census maps, we might be better prepared to act. As it was, he was satisfied with 32 members, and unless it could be shown that some other number would reduce these excesses and deficiencies, he should vote to sustain the report of the committee. Mr. TALLMADGE said he would retain the representation where it was in the Senate and Assembly. And as a leading principle, he should insist on an equality of representation as nearly as might be without the splitting up of counties. Again, he would not increase the representation. As it was we could scarcely hear each other across this hall-and if we had more members we must pull down the capitol or construct the hall on some different principle. He was a decided advocate for single districts both for the Senate and the Assembly. But he went for four years for senators, two for the Governor, and annual elections of members of the house. The Senate he would make more permanent than the other branch. as a check against temporary excitements and excesses. He had before alluded to Shay's rebellion in Massachusetts, to the outbreak in Rhode Island, and to that in Pennsylvania a few years ago. A variety of exigiencies might be imagined which required a body of some stability that should be beyond the reach of a passing excitement, and which should operate as a check upon hasty legislation. Gentleman had spoken of the evil of the unlimited power to create debt, loa and to n money to corporations. He went with them in putting restraints upon these indiscretions. But he had rather see these checks created by a per. manent body such as the Senate, which should not feel these temporary excitements of anti-masonry at one time, and anti-rentism at another. Hence, he went for four years for a senator.If he could not get that, he went for three years. And when we came to elect all our judges and almost all other officers, as we should probably, we could very well afford to elect a senator once in four years only in a particular district. Again, in apportioning representation, another principle should be adhered to-and that was to place deficiencies in the growing counties and districts, instead of those which were dwindling in population as some of the agricultural counties were. Mr. T. went over the apportionment of the committee, pointing out where this principle had not been regarded.He also objected to the union of such counties as Putnam and Rockland, Dutchess and Columbia, which had no affinities or business relations-the course of trade in them being not through each other, but in different channels. But he barely rose to avow his desire to hold the senate as it was, a fixed and comparatively permanent body, to have representation equalized as near as might be, by making single districts of contiguous and naturally connected territory, and giving to thegrowing districts the deficiencies. Mr. WILLARD remarked that many had been taken by surprise this morning, not supposing this report was coming up; and of coltrse they were not prepared to go into aa argument 298 which must be based chiefly on numerical cal. culations. He moved, therefore, that the Con vention adjourn. The committee rose, reported progress, and the Convention took a recess until 4 P. M. AFTERNOON SESSION. Mr. WORDEN rose to say that the business of the Convention might be expedited by the course he was about to propose. We had been discussing all the morning the question whether we should have 32 or more senators. This question ought to be settled before proceeding much further with this Article. And this being a single question, it had better be settled in Con. vention where debate could be brought to a close sooner than in committee. He moved therefore, to bring the question up distinctly, to recommit the Article with instructions to report sections fixing the number of senators at 50, their term of office two years, to be elected in single districts-the number of members of assembly to be 150, with a new ratio of apportionment-the legislature to divide the counties into single districts. These two questions settled, the rest could be easily adjusted. He threw out these rather as suggestions-not intending to commit himself to these numbers, but to allow a range for amendments. Mr. R. CAMPBELL thought the gentleman's proposition would not affect the object; for after all the number of senators depended, or ought to depend, on the number that would produce the greatest equality, and that depended on calculation. Better pass to the section making the ap. portionment, and see how the districts could be arranged with the greatest equality. Then we could better determine the number of senators. Mr. WORDEN thought we could settle the question in the outset, as to how many senators we would have, whether 32, 38, 40, or 50-and without a tedious debate. He preferred 40 himself, but he specified 50 to cover the extreme ground. Mr. CHATFIELD: —Why not move to dis. charge the committee of the whole from the two sections specifying the number of the two houses? Mr. WORDEN assented to that. Mr. CHATFIELD would strike out the ratio altogether-leaving it to the legislature to apportion senators and representatives. It would occupy too much of our time. Mr. BERGEN moved to make the number of senators 40, and of the assemblymen 128. Mr. CHATFIELD moved 48 senators. Mr. MARVIN suggested that the instructions should be offered in blank so that it might be filled by motion. Mr. NICHOLAS was not prepared for one to vote on the number of senators to-day. He suggested that we should now go into committee and pass over the two sections referred to. Mr. WORDEN assented to that course, and The Convention again went into committee of the whole, Mr. PATTERSON in the Chair, on the article in relation to the Legislative de. partment. The committee took up the sixth section, as follows:$ 6. An enumeration of the inhabitants of the state *altl be taken under the direction of the legislature in the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty-fi 3 and at the end of every ten years thereafter; and the said districts shall be so altered by the legislature at the first session after the return of every enumeration that each senate district shall contain, as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants, excluding aliens, paupers, and persons of color not taxed; and shall remain unaltered until the return of another enumeration, and shall at all times consist of contiguous territory, and no county shall be divided in the formation of a senate district, except such county shall be entitled to two or more senators. Mr. CHATFIELD asked for an explanation of the reason for " including aliens, paupers and persons of color not taxed " from the basis of representation. For the purpose of drawing out an explanation, he moved to strike out these words. Mr. W. TAYLOR said there was a proposition made in committee to strike out paupers and persons of color:-but the committee concluded. finding the words in the constitution, to leave them untouched for the action of the Convention. He would have preferred to have struck out the whole, but for the fact that this alien population was fluctuating, and in the city of New York, for instance, upon a large influx of aliens, might give that city a representative, and yet these aliens in the course of a year, might be scattered all over the country. But paupers and colored persons not taxed, were subjects of legislation, and might with propri. ety constitute a portion of the representative population. So might aliens, but for the con. siderations stated. Mr. CHATFIELD could well see why transient persons, merely passing through a seaport town to other parts of the country, should not be included in the basis of representation. But why should aliens who were taxed be excluded? And why exclude persons of color who were allowed to vote? The only true basis of repre. sentation, it struck him, was the whole popula. tion. Mr. BERGEN concurred in this view of the question. He did not see why injustice should be done to other counties because New York might gain a little. In Kings county, there were some 17,000 persons that would not be included in this apportionment. Among them were re. sident aliens. Why should not they be included in the basis of representation? They were in. eluded in the basis of representation for congress. Why not here? Mr. W. TAYLOR repeated, his own views were favorable to striking out paupers and persons of color not taxed. And the reasons for excluding aliens, was no doubt the same that operated with the convention of 1821. It would give New York an undue representation, from the large proportion of aliens there. It appeared from the last census, that of the three classes of persons excluded from the section, New York contained about one.third of the whole number in the state-in all about 74,000. Now aliens, who could so easily become naturalized, if they chose, ought certainly not to be included in the basis of representation. As to paupers, they were entitled to vote and ought to be included. And persons of color not taxed ought to be, for they lived among us and had rights in common with us. All these classes formed the basis of congressional representation. But it would be 299 unjust to give New York an additional senator and additional representatives on the basis of her accidental alien population. Mr. O'CONOR adverted to the elemental principles on which this doctrine of representation is based. We had established as a basis, not the electors but the inhabitants, the persons subject to the law, who were to be governed within the district which elected the representative. We have included all the non-voting classesand with great propriety; because the electors taking part in the government in the particular district, had charge over them, exercising all the duty of government in relation to them. Aliens ought to be included with the rest, because all the burthens of their government, so far as these burthens were of a local character, such as police expenses, &c., fell upon the electors of the district. The gentleman from Onon. daga (Mr. TAYLOR) had treated this subject, as if there was an effort, by including aliens in the basis of representation, to give them a representation here. This was not so, unless the gentleman meant to say that aliens were allowed to vote in New York. The gentleman's argument proceeded upon the ground that aliens might be naturalized, and that if they neglected so to do, they should not have a representation. This is true, but it proved nothing here, since no person proposed to allow them a representation. It was the electors of the district within which they resided, who claimed a voice in the government corresponding with the population of the district. The large number of aliens in the district of New York, imposed heavy burthens upon the electors to maintain the law over them. In all the districts of the state there was a class of non-voting inhabitants included in the basis of representation-lunatics and felons, as well as women and children. Again, if you adopted the electors, instead of inhabitants, as the basis of representation, you would do to N. York measurably another great piece of injustice-for there resided many families the heads of which were often permanently absent, such as sea-faring men and others. In other words the relative proportion of males and females in New York and the rural por. tions of the state, would show a large disproportion of the latter again.st New York. Without claiming for aliens a right to representation-for they had no right-but claiming for the electors of New York a right of representation corresponding with the burthens cast on them-he insisted that aliens should be included in the population which was to form the basis of representation. As to paupers, we in New York had a still stronger right-for in addition to the-burthen of sustaining a police to restrain them from violations of law, we had the burthen of actually maintaining them-and they could not be deprived of the right of voting. If any exclusion whatever was to be introduced, paupers clearly should not be excluded, and so as to persons of color not taxed. The latter were excluded because they did not exercise the elec. tive franchise. In that respect they were in the condition of aliens, and all the burthens incident to the existence of one class in a district, were incident to the existence of the other. And the district had just the same right to a voice in the councils of the state, in proportion to the number thus charged upon it, as it had to a voice in proportion to the number of nonvoting women and children in it. Again, persons of color not taxed, he insisted, ought not to be excluded from the basis of representation any more than women and children. They were equally members of society-equally burthens upon the electors. He objected to this exclusion because it recognized a doctrine that had been repudiated-that the payment of taxes was the circumstance which gave a man a right to be represented. We had gone far beyond the doctrine of those early days in the struggle for civil liberty, when it was claimed that taxation and representation ought to go together. We now permit persons to vote who not only did not contribute to the public burthens, but who were actually maintained by the state. Why should we preserve in the constitution an application of the rule, after having abolished the rule itself? This was a strong additional reason for striking out from the exception ' persons of color not taxed." He regarded it as a blot upon our constitution. He took it also to be the last degree of injustice to say to New York, because you are so circum. stanced that you are burthened with the greatest number of paupers, whom you must admit to an equality with you in the exercise of the electoral right, still you shall have all the burthens consequent upon their being among you, and yet you shall not be allowed a voice in the councils of the state, cor. responding with their number as a part of your population. He supposed however, there would be little objection to striking out paupers and persons of color not taxed, because it would give but a slight advantage to New York over other parts of the state. But on the subject of aliens he anticipated more difficulty. And on a question like this, the city of New York being mainly interested in it, her delegation stood here perfectly at the mercy of the rest of the state. They had no power but that of expostulationthe power of the weak against the strong. But he did hope that whatever jealousy might exist in reference to the representation of the ci. ty here, fhe great and just principle which he had sought to maintain, would prevail-and that was that the electors of each district should have a voice in the councils of the state in proportion to the number of inhabitants in each district, and the consequent burthens that tall upon them-without reference to the question whether they were electors or not. Again, he contended that the aliens in question were not transient persons-for transient persons were not included n the census. He did not deny but there were some resident aliens who doing business in New York might be included in the census, who yet were properly speaking transient persons, or foreign agents, &c.. but that was an extremely small number of persons.The class of aliens included in the census was mainly composed of persons as permanently domiciliated here as the natives. Persons a. waiting the five years' probationary term before naturalization entered into it., their wives and their children, not unfirequnntly very numerous, entered into it. Women of for. 300 eign birth permanently settling in the country scarcely ever became naturalized. Women do not usually think of political matters or of assuming or putting off national character. These, even when they intermarried with native citizens, remained aliens, and were included in that class To exclude all these persons from the bat sis of representation, was unjust and improper. He did not claim a representation for aliens, but merely that they should be included in the basis of representation. Mr. W. TAYLOR said the gentleman had based his argument on the supposition that he (Mr. T.) went for excluding aliens here to pre. vent their being represented. His position was that they should not form a part of the basis of representation. Mr. O'CONOR did not doubt the gentleman meant to present this matter properly. Mr. O'C. thought that the manner in which he pre. sented it, tended to produce an impression that those who went for striking out, wished to secure for aliens some voice in our legislative halls-and that he wished to repudiate. Mr. WORDEN said he should be inclined to sustain this motion to strike out, if he supposed any advantage would result from it to the clas. ses specified. But he believed that the tendency would be to throw new impediments in the way ol their enjoyment of the political rights of which they were now deprived. Nor did the proposition rest on any sound ground of principle. The true basis of representation was the great body of voters. Because they were the body, on whom rested the whole responsibility of the government, for they elected those who had the control of it. To bring in these classes of people into the basis of representation, it was conceded, would give to New-York an additional representative here, on an accidental basis, beyond her fair proportion compared with the agricultural portions of the state.As it stood now, having reference to the voting population, New York had an advantage over other sections of the state; and to extend all over the state a principle which would still farther benefit New York, would be wrong. But the great objection was that it was wrong in principle-radically wrong. It would raise up a barrier which would operate still stronger to exclude these very classes from all participation in the rights of citizenship. He held that all men who submitted themselves to the government under which they lived, with an honest, bona fide intention of sustaining that government, should have a voice through the ballot boxes in the management of that government. As far as was practicable and safe, he would extend this principle to all into whom God had breathed the breath of life-every responsible and intelligent man should enjoy that right. But allow these excluded persons to be part of the basis of representation, and you would raise up an interest in another class operating to exclude them from this right. In the slave states, every five slaves counted as much in the basis of representation as three free men. He asked if this provision, giving as it did a greater de. gree of political power to the whites, did not of itself interpose an almost insurmountable barrier to the emancipation of the slave t Mr. CHATFIELD asked if in the free states, the black population was not also part of the basis of representation in Congress? Mr. WORDEN said that might be true-and yet be no ground of argument here. He was considering the effect that the fact of this slave population giving political power to another portion of the population. had in preventing their restoration to their rights. Take the case of the city of New-York-suppose they were allowed to send four more representatives here and a senator on the basis of her non-voting popu. lation?-Would the voting class ever be disposed to enfranchise these non.voting classes? Now, as New-York had the honor of making the first attempt to exclude the alien population from the right of voting and citizenship, he would not adopt a principle which would make that exclusion more rigid, which would infuse new life it, and build up there a new interest to raise again the hydra-head of persecution, in the exclusion of that portion of the population from citizenship. It would of necessity have the operation and effect to make of 60,000 electors now electing sixteen members, exert themselves to prevent 70,000 uniting with them in the election of four additional members. He would so modify this section as to make the elective body, as far as practicable, the basis of representation. At all events he would not engraft on the constitution a principle, the operation of which would give to one class a new argument or inducement to work the exclusion of other classes from their political rights.This would be the tendency if you allowed one portion of our population to vote on another, or to be represented on another-especially when that other portion was unequally distributed, and when it gave to that county four additional members. Mr. LOOMIS said it had been well remarked that taxation and representation was not the maxim now so far as regarded individuals-but the great national maxim, that no one people could not tax another people without representation, was as popular now as ever. But the gentleman from New York who adverted to this doctrine, had stopped short of the conclusions to which he would have been led had he follow. ed out the elemental principles of government. It was the qualified the electors that constituted the government. They, about one fifth of the whole population, had assumed to them. selves to say who should govern the country.We excluded women, children, lunatics, &c., and that we had the right to do it. To carry out that principle, these electors should have an equal voice in the government. This equality would be directly subverted by giving the elec. tors in one part of the state, where there was a large non-voting population, a representation and a voice in the government corresponding with that population. To say that this representation should be based on the burthens sustained, would be to resolve representation into a property representation. His own impression was strong that the best word here would be qualified electors. RDAN understood the basis Mr. JO of repre. to be that which was representation sented. 301 The gentleman from New York he thought was to be the test, it would be found that as great very unfortunate in his definition of it. inequalities now exist among the counties other Mr. O'CONOR could not have been unfortu. than New York, as would exist between New nate in reading from the section, which made York and the most favored of the rural districts. inhabitants, with certain exceptions, the basis He had during the remarks of the gentleman, of representation. hastily run over the tables of population in some Mr. JORDAN, according to his idea of that of the other counties, to see how the principle basis, should vote to retain paupers. The oth- would work. He had before him the abstract er classes of persons were not represented in of the census furnished the last legislature by the Assembly; they did not vote, and should the Secretary of State, and from that he made not be included in the basis of representation. his calculations. He regretted that this abstract The voting population were the true basis. To had not been printed for the use of the Convenallow aliens to form part of the basis, would tion, as the tables appended to the report of the be to admit an additional representative from committee were entirely useless on this ques. New York for instance, but he would be the re- tion. He found, then, that in Niagara and Erie presentative of nobody except those who form- and perhaps others, the proportion of power in ed the true basis; and the consequence would the elector was as compared with Delaware, be that those in the city who were really repre- Columbia, Dutchess and Putnam, for instance, presented here would be represented by one as five and three-tenths to four and five-tenths, more than their fair proportion. Such would or thereabouts. Now if the gentleman were be the result of including the colored persons truly desirous of preserving electoral equality, not taxed; and the effect of that would be to why did he not carry out his principle, and seek give the represented population the power of to correct this disparity also? an additional member to rivet the chains that Mr LOOMIS interposed to say that these now bound them down and prevented them from facts only showed more strongly the correctness becoming free citizens. He should therefore of his principle. vote to strike out paupers, but to retain "aliens Mr. MURPHY resumed. He said he did and persons of color not taxed." not complain of the gentleman's principle, but Mr. MURPHY said that we should keep dis- of the partial manner in which he applied it. tinctly in mind this distinction,-that the ques- The tables show that as great differences exist tion was one as to the basis of representation in the relative power of voters in different secand not as to representation itself. He would tions of the country, as between the cities and confine his observations to the reasons which the average of the country. He therefore could had been urged in favor of the plan proposed not subscribe to the reasoning of the gentleman by the committee. He had waited to Iear, in from Herkimer, unless he would give his princianswer to the inquiry of the gentleman from pie a general application. Thegentleman from Otsego, (Mr. CHATFIELD,) such reasons from Ontario (Mr. WORDEN) had also undertaken to that committee, but none had been given except justify the exclusion. He asserts that the basis that of precedent; but when pushed a little fur. of representation is the electoral body. This ther, the honorable chairman, (Mr. TAYLOR,) is not so. The old constitution of 1777 did so had admitted that he did not regard the exclu. provide. But now the whole population, insion which it was now sought to strike out as eluding electors, women, minors, idiots, luna. entirely proper, and that he himself was in favor tics, and all other residents, except aliens, pauof striking out " paupers and persons of color pers add persons of color not taxed, constitutes not taxed" but of retaining the exclusion of the basis. The gentleman was therefore wrong aliens from the basis of representation. But in the premises of his argument; and the genthough the committee had not favored us with tleman from Columbia had partially endorsed an argument in support of their report, gentle. the same erroneous view. Now if women, men not of the committee had come to the res. children, lunatics and other non-voting persons, cue and endeavored to sustain it. For himself are admitted in the basis of representation, he he regarded it as a question of might against asked on what principle can we exclude aliens, right. He believed it was a foregone conclusion paupers and persons of color not taxed? Are that the basis of representation in those coun. not the latter as much the objects of govern. tries where there were large cities, was to be ment as the former? Are they not as much the reduced in order to strip them of their legiti- subjects of local protection in the community in mate influence and power in these halls. The which they live as the other? For his part he gentleman from Herkimer, who has just taken conceived it great injustice to require from that his seat, (Mr. LOOMIS,) has earnestly advoca- community to extend to them all the advantages ted this exclusion on the ground that it is neces. of their protection, and then to deprive that sary in order to preserve an equality of power community of the reciprocal advantage which in the electors, that is, if he understood him, to they ought to derivefrom them in the direction give to each elector the same influence in the of the government of the state. Some gentlegovernment as any other may have; and con. men considered the alien population a curse intended that if aliens, were included in the basis stead of a blessing, and as a burden upon the of representation, each voter in New York, for society in which they live, filling up the alms instance, would inconsequence of the enlarged houses, yet at the same time, they are unwilling basis, have a power, as compared with a voter to let that society defend itself in the only way in the country, of six to five. He (Mr. M.) in which it can do so-that is, by a due reprewould not deny this; but he called upon that sentation in the state councils. The gentleman gentleman to go on and carry out his own prin. from Ontario had advanced another reason of a ciple. If equality of power in the voter, were most extraordinary characterfor him. He said 302 that he wished to protect the rights of this un. enfranchised portion of the population. He would, if he could, let aliens vote even withoul the present time of probation for naturalization; but as he could not do that, he wished to protect them from the rest of the community in which they live. And for what reason? Because if the other part of the community were allowed more representatives, they would exercise a power which they would be loth to give,up, and would have an interest to prevent the enfranchisement of aliens. In this the gentleman displayed an extraordinary regard for our foreign population; but he thought he had overshot the mark. His zeal was too warm; for at the same time that he manifested a xegard for the non-voting aliens, he was guilty of gross injustice towards the naturalized citizen. He forgot that in those communities where these non-voting aliens resided, there was, for that very reason, necessarily the largest proportion of adopted citizens. The former, therefore, were in a great degree, in the power of their own countrymen and friends, if those communities would have any power at all-which he (Mr. M.) could not admit-to keep them in their unenfranchised state. The argument of the gentleman was simply this, that the power in the hands of adopted citizens would be in the hands of fratricides,-turned turned against their own brethren. As to the precedent alluded to by the chairman of the committee, contained in the present constitution, he did not consider it of any weight. He had not looked to see how it came to be introduced. Considering it wrong in principle, it had no force with him. Yet if we are to be referred to precedent, there was one much stronger in favor of his position, and that was the basis of representation in the Congress of the U. S. There, no distinction prevails, but the t whole population, of every and whatever description, is included. Now, he asked, what propriety is there in adopting a different basis * for your state representation, from that fixed for the federal representation? To his mind, there was none. If there were any, it would be to reverse the distinction, because itwas the state government only that took cognizance of our internal and local affairs. He had thus briefly replied to the arguments adduced in favor of the report of the committee, without any expectation of changing that report. As he had before observed, the question appeared to him to be made here, one of the strong against the weak. The numerical interest was against the amendment. He had arisen only from a sense of duty to that constituency which had sent him here; and he could not allow a provision which deprived the county he in part represented, of its just influ. ence in the legislature, without raising his voice against it. The decision, however, rested with the Convention. Mr. WATERBURY said if he could be convinced that by striking out these words, we could give every man the equal rights to which he was entitled, he would do it cheerfully-for he had sworn adhesion to the great doctrine of equal rights. But believing that the effect would be directly the other way,he should vote to retain Mr. STOW made some remark, which was not distinctly heard, in relation to the Indian population, when The committee rose and reported progress, and the Convention Adj. to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. WEDNESDAY, JULY 22. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. KENNEDY. moneys arising from the sales of the said lands in the Mr. ANGEL presented a memorial from a said first section mentioned, and all moneys now betonvention of delegates from several westernlonging or which hereafter may belong to the said counties, held at Rochester, on the 19th of June, 3. The revenues accruing from the proportional in relation to the unfinished canals. Referred share of the moneys of the United States received on to committee No. 3. deposit with this state upon the terms specified in an The PRESIDENT laid before the Convention act of Congress of the United States entitled "1 An act a report from the circuit judge of the 1st circuit, eglate the deposites of the public money, approved the 23d of June, 1836," after retaining so much containing a statement of his fees, pursuant to a thereof as may from time to time be necessary to resolution of the Convention. Referred to the make good any deficiency in the principal, shall herejudiciary committee. after be inviolably applied to the purposes of common school education, subject to the limitations and re COMMON SCHOOLS, &c strictions in the next succeeding sections contained. Mr. NICOLL, from committee No. 12, made a ~ 4. All existing appropriations heretofore made by report, which was read, as follows:- aw of portions of the said revenues in the preceding ARTICLE. ection mentioned, for terms of years which have not A RTICLE., yet expired, shall continue to be made until the expira1. The proceeds of all lands belonging to this state, tion of said terms of vears, and not afterwards. except such parts thereof as may be reserved or appro- 6 5. The portion of the said revenues now directed prsated to public use or ceded to the United Stales, which by law to be annually paid over to the Literature fund shll hereafter be sold or disposed of, together with the shall be so paid in the year one thousand eight hundred fund denominated the Common Schoolfund, and all mo- and forty.seven, and not afterwards and after that neys heretofore appropriated by law to the use and ben- period all existing specific appropriations now direct. efit of the said fund shall be and remain a pcrpetual ed by law to be paid out of the revenues of the Literafund, the interest of which shall be inviolably appropri- ture fund, shall be paid out of the revenues in the said ated and applied to the support of Common Schools preceding third section mentioned, until otherwise or throughout this state. dered by the legislature ~ a. It shall be the duty of the legislature to pass The committee further report for the consideration such laws as may be necessary to keep at all times ie. of the Convention, and recommend to be submitted to curely invested and to preserve from loss or waste all the people separately the following additional section. 303 ~ 6. The legislature shall,at its first session after the adoption of this constitution, and from time to time thefeafter as shall be necessary, provide by law for the free education and instruction of every child between the ages of four and sixteen years, whose parents, guardians or employers shall be resident of the state, in the common schools now established or which shall hereafter be established therein-the expense of such education and instruction, after appliying the public funds as above provided shall be defrayed by taxation at the same time, and in the same manner as may be provided by law for the liquidation of town and county charges. HENRY NICOLL, Chairman. Mr. N. explained as had been done by the chairmen of other committees, on presenting their reports, that there was a difference of opinion in the committee, and that the individual members reserved to themselves the right to express their views hereafter. The report was referred to the committee of the whole, and ordered to be printed. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention again went into committee of the whole on the report of committee number 1, on the appointment, election and tenure of office, and compensation of the legislature, Mr. PATTERSON in the chair. The pending question was on striking out from lines 7 and 8 of section 6, the words " excluding aliens, paupers, and persons of color not taxed." Mr. KIRKLAND spoke in opposition to the amendment. He said he found, by referring to the Conventions of 1777 and 1801, that the ba. sis of representation was upon the body of elec. tors. He found that in the Convention of 1821, the change was made in consequence of the al. teration in the right of the elective franchise. That Convention provided, for instance, that to entitle a man to vote, he must have performed labor on the highways, &c. To adopt the electoral body then, as the basis of representation, would have operated most oppressively upon the city of New-York, where no such work was performed. It was on motion of a delegate from New-York, that the rule was altered, and every inhabitant was made the basis, with the exceptions here named. Mr. K., under present cir. cumstances, could see no objection to the adop. tion of the rule recognized in 7777 and 1801, and make the electoral body the basis of representation. He illustrated his position. If there were now residing in Western New-York large numbers of the aborigines of our country, it would not be just to the other portions of the state, to admit them as a basis of representation, for they had never been admitted to the exercise of the elective franchise. We were adopting an arbitrary rule, and we should see that it worked no injustice to any part of the state. In one portion of the state there were some 80,000 persons who could not, in the nature of things, exercise the elective franchise. In other portions of the state there but few of this class. To adopt this amendment then, would work unequally. But make the electoral body the rule, and equal justice could be done to all. Mr. K. proceeded to answer the objections which had been urged against this view of the case. From the very necessity of things, in our government, the sovereignty of this country rested with the electoral body. Their rep. resentatives were bound to protect the rights and property of all, aliens as well as others, and this without any reference to the rule of representation. There might not be any strong reason for changing the rule as it existed in 1821. But there was strong reason why the electoral body in one part of the state should not have an undue advantage over another part. There was no good reason for the rule proposed by this amendment, but many objections to it. It would make the 60,000 electors in New-York equal to at least 75,000 in other, sections of the state. He continued his remarks at some length in opposition to the amendment, commenting upon the rule adopted in the Federal Cbnstitu. tion, contending that the case was not at all analogous. Mr. CHATFIELD said when he offered his amendment, it was in a great measure to collect information, but he thought the advantages to be gained were not sufficient to counterbalance the disadvantage of this discussion. He now proposed to modify his amendment so as to strike out only the word " paupers." The motion was agreed to, 65 voting in the affirmative. Mr. BERGEN renewed the motion to strike out the words " excluding aliens, and persons of color not taxed." 'Mr. MORRIS conceived that a principle was involved in this matter, or he would not have risen. Like his friend from Oneida, he did not rise on account of any local advantages or disadvantages it involved, but to advocate a principle without reference to locality. He was one who believed that the present age was infinitely better informed, and more fully appreciated what was meant by "liberal institutions" and "the people," than their ancestors, who had the cleverness to establish the institutions under which we live. That might be called the egotism of the age, and he might be censured for it; but it, was true nevertheless. We practically carry out the principles our ancestors established.They had them in theory, but it required years. for their descendants to come to their practice.. They -were not however the less to be eulogized for what they did. They were not the less entitled to the character of patriots and advocates of the rights of man. Fulton is certainly entitled to more praise for his invention than the skillful machinist who improved and carried it out; and yet none would pretend that at his death he knew more of the practical operation of machinery than some of our mechanics. So it is with us. We have practically applied the theory of government which our ancestors established. The constitution of 1777, by copying into it the Declaration of Independence, used the word 'people" as the source of all power. Previous to the Declaration of Independence, the terms used were "the good people of the state of New York." The Kings of England were described as being "Kings by the grace of God," of which we republicans say there is a falsehood on its face. We do not believe that the grace of God made the kings of England to rule over the people of that nation. Our document-the last constitution-commences with the averment that the people are the source of all power-that it 304 all emanates from the people. He trusted the citizens, but of those who were American born, constitution to be framed by the Convention, when they married women who came from would begin in the same manner, using the across the Atlantic. When these foreigners, to words that were in the constitution of 1777, whom inducements were held out to reside and intheDeclaration of Independence. Andhe amongst us, gave notice of their intendesired that it shouldmean whatitasserted. He tion to become naturalized, they became a did not wish our successors to bringup our words part of us, so much so as to fit them to beto shew that we were guilty of falsehood. He come a part of the basis of representation, as hoped they would either establish what they be- well as infants and persons who never can believed-that all power emanates from the people, come electors. Now for these reasons, and for or strike out the words if practically theymeant the purpose of having this instrument really nothing. Let them not start with a falsehood mean in practice what it proclaimed in theory, in their mouths. Now he did not believe that he trusted this word would be stricken out, and the ': electors" of a state were the source of that the people should mean the whole mass all powder. They are a mere delegated body- who are here under our laws,-here with the the agents of the people for the performance of intention of remaining under our laws,-and a particular duty. Without being astonished who have to be protected, and guarded, and then, at any thing, they might nevertheless won- controlled by our laws. And now to the equitader at the restrictions imposed by the Conven- ble claim of the cities where these people were. tion of 1821, which in fact imposed a property Much expense was necessarily incurred by these qualification. The word pauper however had been cities. There was not a county or town in the restored. But he thoughtit wrong in gentlemen to state that was not put to more or less expense exclude "colored persons not taxed," so long as by reason of these people, and he could but apthey permitted those to come in who are taxed, prove of the argument of his associate, that because it was making a property qualification where such burdens were sustained, they should independently of all other. It considered man be entitled to such additional representation as not a part of the people, unless he possessed would enable them to pass laws to regulate and certain property, and made that property the take charge of them. basis of representation. Then they came to the Mr. RHOADES was always pleased to hear word "alien." And what was its meaning as the gentleman from New York talk about the here used? He was under the necessity of go. rights of the people, for he always exhibited a ing to his own particular locality to portray it. philanthropy towards all classes, and a love and The laws of tire United States authorize per- respect for the rights of the people whether high sons to come here from abroad and live amongst or low, rich or poor, which harmonized with his us, and the states are obliged to receive them own feelings. He only hoped this feeling would whether they desire it or not. The law says if be exhibited when a motion should be made to an alien comes over the age of eighteen he must, amend the report of committee No. four, by declare his intention to become a citizen-if he striking out the word " white' and thus extend is under the age of 18, no declaration is neces- the elective franchise to some 8,000 or 10,000 sary-and after being here five years he may inhabitants now excluded. While however he become a citizen. And what did they do by agreed with the gentleman from New York in making " inhabitants" the basis of represen. his feeling for the people, he could not agree tation? It was necessary that a person re- with him as to the basis of representation. He moving from New-Jersey to the city and coun- was in favor of striking out these words, and of ty of New-York, should reside there one year inserting the word " electors." He believed the to make an elector of him, but he might be electors held a trust to be exercised for the bencounted as one of those who were the basis of efit of all the people of the state. This right representation. Put here they said an alien had not been given to them, but they had taken should not be counted; and whom did this in- it upon themselves. He believed that every elude? It included every man who had made other plan, except that proposed by him, was the declaration of his intention to become a liable to objection. If we make the inhabitants citizen, because he was still an alien. Nor did the rule, then there would be injustice-for we the term inhabitants, as gentlemen supposed, have a large class of floating population, conembrace that floating population of 60,000 or stantly changing, and who had no title to be 100,000 persons who come in annually. It did represented here or elsewhere, for they had no not include the tens of thousands who come up intention of residing here. If we exclude aliens, the North River, after getting on board at the we exclude a class that have come here with the Quarantine ground, who were entered in the intention of residing with us, and they are as documents as having landed at the port of New. much entitled to representation, when they York, but whose foot never touched the soil of should become naturalized, as if they had been the Island of New-York, for they passed it, and born here. If we retain the word paupers, we travelled beyond it either by the canal or rail- do injustice, though the number be small. By roads or rivers. It included then those persons examining returns, it would be found that nearly who had declared their intention to become nat- one-half of this class were either aliens or peruralized; children who might become naturalized sons of color not taxed, who, it is contended, by the naturalization of their parents; chil- should not be reckoned. The true basis, he dren who were under eighteen years of age, thought, was the " electors." There was no and who could become naturalized without any I principle so free from objections, while it would previous declaration to that effect; and it in- secure the most just, fair and equal represen. cluded the mass of women who never become tation. naturalized-the wives, not only of adopted Mr. BAKER desired to get the question into a 305 shape in which it might be available hereafter. they should hereby leave it to the census taker He called attention to the report of the commit- to determine who were electors of this state.tee on franchise, who had reported a section He thought this would be too great and too danwhich would, if adopted, place people of color gerous a power to be so entrusted. not taxed and white people not taxed on the Mr. KENNEDY was about to make the same same footing; and for the purpose of making remark, when the gentleman from Erie rose -- this section compare with that reported by He had evidence on which to base his objection that committee, he moved that the question be to the entrusting of such a power to the censustaken separately, so that if the former sec- takers, in a document of the city convention now tion was passed, this could be again recurred to. sitting in New-York, which exhibited the fact In answer to the eloquent argument of the that the 4th district of the 4th ward, according gentleman from New York, in favor of giving to the last census, had 1878 voters, whereas the to New York a representation equal to the bur. entire male population of -the district was but thens which she had to bear for the support of 3893. At the November election, in 1844, this the government, in consequence of the foreign- district polled 574, so that the census-taker had ers who were among her population, he would evidently made upwards of a thousand votes. say that New York already possessed upon this The debate was continued by Messrs.TOWNSfloor, and in the Legislature, greater power than END, RHOADES, MARVIN, TILDEN, and they were in reality equitably entitled to. With WORDEN. a population less than that of the counties of The amendment was then rejected. Clinton, Essex, Montgomery, Cortland,Broome, Mr. JORDAN moved to amend by inserting Queens, Tioga, Chemulng, Orleans, Wyoming after the word " thereafter," the following:and Yates, which send 12 members, New York The legislature shall, at its next session after the sends her 16. If the gentleman from New Y9rk adoption of this constitution, divide the state into discontended that they were entitled to a represen. tricts according to the fifth section of this article tation in accordance with the burthens of gov. Mr. J. said his object was to throw upon the erment imposed by their foreign population I legislature, this whole question of districting the the gentlemen from Hamilton and Essex might ate, which, if considered here, would be one perhaps claim that they have in their wild lands state, which, if considered h ere, would that could a greater number of badJgers, wolves, bears, for of the most perplexing and protracted that could a greater number of badgers, wolves, bears, forcome before us. After 1855, the legislature were the taking of which they were obliged to keep a e before us. After 1855, the legislature were quantity of traps and hunting materials, and de. t o perform this duty, anme he did not see why the mand that the necessity for ke these i legislature, next to meet, could not do this work ments and the burdens which these badgers and as well as future legislatures. He spoke of the ments, and the burdens which these badgers and i us necessity of husbanding the time of wolves and bears imposed upon them should be the Convention, else we could not complete our taken into consideration in settling the basis of the Convention else we could notcomplete our representation. He had no intention to detainlabors before the election. the committee with a speech upon this question, Mr. BROWN apprehended there were very but merely desired to have the question taken few members of the Convention, who did not upon this amendment separately, so that a recur- fully concur with the gentleman in the absolute rence might be had to this subject hereafter. necessity of saving the time of the Convention. After a few words from Mr. WATERBURY, There was great apprehension among the peothe question was taken on the motion to strike ple, that the whole object of the Convention out the word " alien," which was lost, only 20 would fail, unless we retraced our steps. When voting in the affirmative. he became a member of this Convention, he proThe next question was on striking out the mised himself that its labors would close by the words "persons of color not taxed," which did 1st of August. And now that day was just at not prevail, 31 only rising in favor of it. hand, and yet all that we had done was to strike Mr. BASCOM said in anticipation of the pro- out the word " native" from the third section of bability, if gentlemen would have it so, that the article in relation to the Executive depart. persons of color may yet constitute a part of the ment. He earnestly hoped the Convention electoral class, lie proposed the following a- would adopt either this amendment, or the momendment to come in after the words "persons tion submitted yesterday by Mr. WoRDEN,which of color not taxed:"_ met with more favor from him. The question So long only as persons of color shall be precluded whether one county had too few or too many from enjoying the rights of suffrage upon the same representatives, should be left where it belongterms as white persons. ed, with the legislature. Mr. NICOLL thought the amendment unne. Mr. W. TAYLOR thought the question of cessary. the apportionment might be decided very eaMr. BASCOM explained. sily by the committee. It was settled in a The amendment Was then rejected. short time by the Convention of 1821, and he Mr. RHOADES moved to strike out "inhabi-. believed if the committee should proceed with tants, excluding aliens and persons of color not the amendments to be offered to the remainder taxed" and insert " electors." of the report, and then recur back to the ap. Some conversation ensued between Messrs. portionment, the whole would be disposed of in SIMMONS, RICHMOND, RHOADES, LOO. a very short time. He did not see why there MIS, STRONG, CHATFIELD and PERKINS. should be any recommitment to committee No. Mr. CHATFIELD was satisfied this basis of one. They could not make the matter any representation would be exceedingly unequal. plainer. If the question of apportionment Mr. STOW rose to point out an insuperable should be given to the legislature, it would be objection to it in its present form. It was that throwing upon them an immense amount of 20 306 labor; and one which he believed properly belonged to this body. Mr. STETSON continued the debate. Mr. JORDAN explained that by referring to the fifth section in his amendment he did not propose to adopt that section as it stood. He would not pass definitely upon that section at present.,He would strike out of it all that related to the districting of the state, merely declaring that there should be single districts, and also how the senators should be classified. In reply to Mr. TAYLOR, Mr. J. contended there was not the least necessity for us to district the state. Cast your eyes over the important subjects upon which we are to pass, and could we possibly get through before the election if we were also to waste time in this useless work of districting the state, reconciling and harmonizing as we must all the conflicting interests of the different portions of the state? Mr MARVIN was ab anxious as any one to expedite business; but it struck him that two or three questions must be decided before entering upon that proposed by the gentleman. We must first determine how many Senate and Assembly districts we will have-and whether they shall be single districts or not, before passing upon this proposition. He suggested that we should return to the prior section, and settle the grand question first, and then if we could not agree to the plan for distributing, we might all agree to throw that back upon the legislature. Mr. RUSSELL could not agree with Mr. BROWN that the people of this state would excuse this Convention from the performance of their appropriate duty, in settling definitely the districts from which their senators are to be elected. He was proceeding to argue that this was the duty of the Convention to decide this question, instead of giving it to the next legislature, when Mr. JORDAN called him to order. That was not the question before the Convention. Mr. RUSSELL was, however, allowed to proceed in order. He believed it was a ques. tion involving the purity of legislation, that this question of deciding what portions of the state should compose the districts from which their own body should thereafter be elected. He would have the Senate districts permanently fixed, so that the Senators, both those who went out and those who remained, should be perfectly unbiased in relation to the localities from which the newly elected members should come. If time was allowed, he should also be in favor of alloting the Assembly districts. He believed that the Convention had time to dispose of their business in good season, if, instead of coming back here for an hour or two in the afternoon, they should remain at their posts until late in the evening, as they should do. Mr. HARRIS was decidedly in favor of dividing the state into senatorial districts But he was now satisfied that was not practicable, and the duty must devolve upon the next legislature. This being so, he thought we could dispose of the whole question in a brief time. Let us go back to the 2d section, and determine how many Senate and Assembly districts there should be strike out all relating to the districting, and then so alter this 6th section, as to throw the apportionment upon the next legislature. This would make the whole system complete, and he hoped this suggestion would be agreed to in case it should be deemed expedient for us to district the state. Mr. WARD concurred in the propriety of returning to the 2d section, and appealed to Mr. JORDAN to withdraw his amendment. Mr. JORDAN declined. Mr. WARD said, then he was in favor of dis. tricting the state here, take what time it would. That responsibility was thrown upon us, and for one he was ready to meet his share of it. He was in favor of single senate districts and believed a majority of the Convention were.There was a difference as to the number. His own opinion was against an increase from the present number. He should vote against the amendment now before the committee. Mr. W. TAYLOR said that the amendment would not secure the object sought. We had got to have this whole debate on the proposition,how many districts you would have. We might as well meet that question now. He hoped we should stop debating these side questions, and confine ourselves to the subject in hand. We should gain nothing by the adoption of the amendment. Mr. TILDEN opposed the amendment as premature at this time. Mr. CHATFIELD said this amendment would adopt the 5th section as it now stood, and he could not vote for this in advance. Mr. JORDAN combatted this view. His amendment would apply to that section as it should be finally adopted. He would be pleased to withdraw his proposition to please some of his friends here, but having offered it from a solemn sense of duty, he should feel that he would be recreant to that duty, did he not press it to a vote. Mr. W. TAYLOR appealed to Mr. J. to waive his amendment for the time being, and he assented. Mr. HARRIS offered the following amend. ment:" Strike out all after the word 'thereafter,' in the 4thline, to and including the word 'district,' in the 6th line, and insert, ( The Legislature, at its next annual session, and at the first session after the return of every enumeration, shall divide the state into Senate Districts, which. " Mr. PERKINS moved to pass over this sec. tion and return to section 2d. Agreed to. The question then was upon striking out the word " thirty-two." Mr. RUSSELL briefly supported the motion, remarking that he had drawn a plan embracing 20 double districts, each electing two Senators, one every year, and yet in no district would there be a variation from the average ratio of more than 4000. He believed we would be for. ced to adopt a compromise of 20 double districts with 40 Senators, to harmonize the views of such as were in favor of single districts on the one hand, and the present system on the other. Mr. W. TAYLOR said it was not necessary to increase the number of senators to equalize the representation. Nor did he believe the people called for or expected an increase, which must add materially to the expenses of legislation. If the Convention preferred double dis 307 tricts, the representation could be made more equal. But he believed single districts were called for, and were more expedient. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN also insisted that the people did not call for an increase of the legislative force. Nor, if we stripped the legislature of much of its power and duty, was it necessary. He thought the report very well as it stood, though more equality might perhaps be produced by a few alterations. This arrangement, it was to be recollected, was only to last eight years, and whatever disposition of the districts might now be made, circumstances would in that time require alterations, which the legislature would take care of. Arrange it as we would, there must be dissatisfaction somewhere. Mr. RICHMOND could account for the gen. tleman's satisfaction with the report as it stood. It gave Rensselaer a senator, with a large deficit, while Albany, with a larger population, was connected with Schenectady. Mr. SIMMONS thought the number of which the senate and assembly should consist, should be determined without reference to the arrangement of the districts-and that this should be left to the legislature. His idea was that if we intended the senate to be a check upon the assembly, we should have an eye to the proposed change in regard to its judicial functions. As now constituted, men were elected to the senate with reference to their qualifications as members of the court of errors. If we stripped it of these functions, its number could well be increased and the term reduced to two years. He should prefer forty senators with a two years term-making it a more popular body, and the more numerous the less liable to be tam. pered with. Indeed, the assembly from its greater number, was the safer body-it was in fact the conservative branch, rather than the other. But he could vote for no system which contemplated this sort of chequer board mode of election-one-half the state alternating with the other in choosing senators, There would be too much room and motive for colonization in such a system. If we could have biennial sessions of the legislature, then the term of a senator should be four years. His object would be to prevent, this excessive legislation and change of laws. He wanted to see it made more difficult to change laws. Mr. SWACKHAMER urged briefly, single districts, biennial sessions, and an increase of the senate and assembly. Mr. JORDAN opposed the striking out of the words thirty-two, if as seemed to be the case, the object was to increase the number. If that was a reform which the people had called,he had never heard it. The expense of such an increase was a serious objection. And upon the supposition that seven senators ware added, there must be 28 members more in the Assembly; which taking the ordinary length of the session, would increase the legislative expenses $15.000 annually-a sum which if laid aside on interest every year, would in twenty years amount to more than a million of dollars-to say nothing of the expense of enlarging the Assembly chamber and knocking out the walls of this Capitol. And if 128 were not enough to pre vent corruption, neither would 150 be-so that if safety was the object of an increase, we must go on until the number of representatives should reach that of half the adult population of the state. If there was not wisdom and virtue enough in 128, neither would there be in 150.The greater the number also, the more divided the responsibility. And so with regard to the Senate-if a majority of a small body could be corrupted, so could the majority of one a little larger. And if we must act upon any such principle in fixing the number of the two bodies, better have no government at all. Besides, the great object of a popular branch-a branch which shall represent the interests, wants, and wishes of all parts of the state-did not depend so much on their number,as on their proper apportionment throughout the state. And as for the Senate, whose chief purpose was a check upon unwise legislation, a small body of 32 could perform that function as well as one of 48. Again, the idea of equalizing representation by increasing the number of representatives, was all a fallacy-for by this means you only increase the importance of fractions. Double the number of your Assembly, and you would then find that a fraction of 8000 would produce as great inequality as a fraction of 16,000 now.Absolute inequality of representation could not be attained without dividing counties, towns and perhaps school districts-nor was it essential that the people should vote every year for senators, so long as they were represented every year. But whether we had single, or double, or quadruple districts, he was for retaining the present term of four years for a senator, as well for the purpose of making the senate the more permanent body, as to secure there a sufficient knowledge of previous legislation, and of public affairs generally and to secure stability in the laws. Mr. PERKINS urged that the number of Se. nators would depend in some degree in their term ot office-that is, if they were elected for four years, we should have a number that would divide by four, and so on. But it did not follow that if the senate was increased a little, the house must be also. Mr. CHATFIELD followed chiefly in reply to Mr. JORDAN, urging that equality of representation in the senate was a matter of great importance, and that could not be effected by the number proposed by the committee, we should endeavor to hit on some other number that would produce that result. Mr. C. went on to criticize the apportionment proposed — speaking of the large excesses and deficiencies -when Mr. W. TAYLOR remarked that the excesses and deficiencies were very nearly equal in the aggregate. Mr. CHATFIELD insisted that the inequalities were such that it would leave 25,000 voters unrepresented, estimating one voter to every five inhabitants. Mr. C. went on to point out the inequalities, as respects Albany and Rensselaer, Monroe, Erie, Onondaga, &c. The expense of increasing the senate, he regarded as a matter of no moment compared with the great object of equalizing representation. But he insisted, that by shearing the senate of half its functions, and 308 limiting the sessions to three months instead of five or six, there would be no additional expense growing out of this increase. The expense of a census periodically might as well be objected to-tor its only object was to equalize representation. And if this was to be the principle, we might as well adopt at once an apportionment for all time to come, and say, that though a rotten borough system might be the result, it should remain, like the laws of the Medes and Persians, unalterable. Mr. C. went on to draw an argument from the increase of the state in wealth and population, in favor of an increase of representation; and to urge the greater safety of larger bodies, compared with smaller; from the greater difficulty of tampering with the former. He went for such a representation as should be a fair reflection of the popular opinion. If justice could be done by single districts, he went for it-if not, for double districts. On motion of Mr. STOW, the committee rose and reported progress. Leave was granted to sit again, and the Convention took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. Mr. MURPHY offered the following, and dedemanded the previous question on it:" Resolved, That when this Convention shall be resolved into committee of the whole on the report of committee number one, members engaged in debate shall not be allowed to speak more than five minutes on any one question." Mr. CHATFIELD insisted that it was not in order. The PRESIDENT ruled otherwise, it having relation to the pending business. Mr. CHATFIELD still differed with the Chair-but moved ten minutes instead of five. The previous question was considered, ayes 61, noes 33; ordered to be put, ayes 54, noes 42; and Mr. MURPHY'S resolution adopted,ayes 59, noes 43. Mr. CHATFIELD then offered the following: " Resolve;l, That this Convention do now finally adjourn without delay ": Mr. STEPHENS called for the ayes and noes on the resolution. Mr. WORDEN moved to lay on the table-at the same time asking the mover to withdraw it. Mr. CHATFIELD, after expressing his sur. prise and regret that the Convention should have adopted so stringent a rule in regard to debate in committee of the whole, and his views of the importance of the pending question-withdrew his resolution. Mr. BAKER then offered the following:Resolved, That the committee of the whole having charge of the report of committee number One, be instructed so to set le said report, that the Senate shall consist of- members to be elected in - districts, and for a term of — years." Mr. B. said this would enable the Convention to come to a vote on these several propositions, as to the number of senators, their term, and the size of the districts, and still allow every member to present his proposition and have a vote on it-even though the previous question shoulJ be moved here. The resolution was received, and the question being upon filling t'he first blank, Mr. BAKER movqd to fill it with 50, by request; Mr. CHATFIELD 48; Mr. BASCOM 46; Mr WORDEN 40; Mr. RICHMOND 39; Mr. WHITE 36; Mr. ST. JOHN 32; Mr. RUSSELL 42. The question recurred on the highest number. Mr. TAGGART spoke at length in favor of an increase of senators, though he thought fifty too many. He was for leaving the number of senators to be increased hereafter by the legislature, whatever number might be fixed upon now. He objected to thirty-two, as creating too many and too great excesses and deficits. Still, he admitted that it would be impossible to apportion senators by single districts, without dividing counties, and get rid of inequalities.But he thought a plan might be devised more equal than that of the committee, and by single districts, by increasing the number of senators. Mr. T. ran over an apportionment he had made on such a basis-saying, that from a thorough examination of all the plans for single districts, none presented fewer inequalities than his. He went on to urge an increase of representatives in the Senate and Assembly, as necessary to secure to the agricultural districts their fair rep. resentation-which he asserted would in time be encroached upon by the commercial counties, having within them the large cities and villages. And he adverted to the several apportionments heretofore made, to show that this would be the tendency under the present limited and fixed representation. His number was thirty-nine, for the Senate now, and then either fixing the num. ber absolutely in 1855 and 1865, or leaving it to the legislature. He would also increase the Assembly in the same proportion, and adopt the same principle there also. Mr. KIRKLAND insisted that the plan of the gentleman from Genessee instead of producing equality, would result in most glaring inequalities. In a single case only it left an excess of 17,000 in one county, and a deficiency in an adjoining county of 11,000. The one plan was as bad as the other, unless you resorted to dismemberment-and that he regarded as entirely out of the question. But the real question here was not how the state should be districted; but whether the number of senators and represen. tatives should be increased. And on that ques. tion he was prepared to vote now. He denied that the people had called for this increase. If they had, the call had never reached his ears.Besides, we should no doubt strip the senate of all judicial power, of nearly all its voice in mat. ters of appointment-and where the necessity or propriety, whilst thus diminishing the powers and duties of that body, of adding to its number? Again, this increase of number, instead of shortening sessions and diminishing expense, would have directly the opposite tendency. He trusted the Convention would pause before they adopted a plan which must enhance the expense of legislation to no good purpose, and which the people did not contemplate or desire. Mr. TALLMADGE also took ground against any increase of the senate or assembly. Raise the number of senators to 40, and of assembly. men to 165-and we should add to the expense of legislation in the next 20 years, to the amount of a million or more of dollars. For one, he should vote for no increase beyond the present 309 numbers, 32 and 128-believing that the people had not the most distant idea of such an increase and would be dissatisfied with it. Again, all saw the difficulty of settling these districts. We could not arrange them to our own satisfaction-and who did not see that it would be throwing into the instrument an item at which every mathematician in the state would be carping? and the result would not be otherwise than unfavorable to the adoption of our work by the people. All seemed to agree on the propriety of separate assembly districts. But we had no time to arrange these districts. That must be left to the legislature-and if so, why not leave the legislature also to form senate districts out of the assembly districts? In that way,equality, as far as practicable, could be brought about.But he repeated, he adhered to the present number, thirty-two, and he washed his hands of any increase of it. Mr. MARVIN went for an increase of the number of senators. He assumed that the senate was to be a legislative body only, without judicial power-that it was a fundamental principle of a representative government that the representative should sympathize with the people and be intimately acquainted with all their wants, wishes and interests-and that it was impossible that in this great state, destined as it was soon to contain a population of five million-that a body of 32 members only could thus sympathise with the constituent body. It was too large for a court, but too small for a safe legislative body. Forty-nine senators would give one representative in that body for every 50,0(0. And would any one contend that that was too small a number for one man to represent? He insisted that the demand for the single district system arose mainly out of this disproportion of representation and populationand from the impossibility now of the electors knowing who they voted for for senator, or of the candidates knowing a hundreth part of them -much less their varied interests and wishes. The people desired to have representation brought home more nearly to them. He would have 48 senators and 144 representatives. That would allow a senatorial term of 4, 3, or 2 years-and this increase would give a fair and full representation of districts and localities which the people so much desired. Mr. W. TAYLOR criticised Mr. TAGGART'S plan of apportionment, po; nin.g out its excesses and deficiencies, and insisting that its inequalities were greater under that plan than under that of the committee. He then alluded to Mr. CHATFIELD'S plan for 48 senators-showing its large excesses and deficiencies in eight counties. He said he did not suppose the gentleman had Otsego on his mind, but it happened that Otsego came out exactly even. Mr. CHATFIELD supposed the gentleman did not think of Onondaga when he made out his apportionment. Mr. TAYLOR defied the gentleman to place Onondaga with any other county around it, without making an excess of some 25,000. Mr. CHATFIELD said Onondaga was happy in its locality. Mr. TAYLOR:-Certainly. Nature put us there, and we have no wish to get away from it. Mr. T. went on to say that under any plan of single districts there must be inequality, unless you divided counties. He said that the Albany and Schenectady district had been objected to. But he was permitted by the gentleman from Albany (Mr. HARRIS,) to say that he had tried to arrange that district differently, and could not better it. Mr. STETSON replied to the objection as to the additional expense which would follow from an increase of the senate and assembly. He had made an estimate, supposing the senate to be increased to 40 and the house to 150, and adopting the proposition for a 90 days' session, and he found the increase would not be over $11,000 a year. As to the farther objection that an increase would require an enlargement of these rooms, Mr. S. thought the great question of popular representation was not to be prejudiced by such a flimsy argument. This was a confession that better arguments were not at hand. He would submit to the members of the Convention, whether a population of 16,000 was not large enough for any man to represent faithfully? This was as many as formed the basis in 1821. And were not 60,000 enough for the ambition of a senator? This was a question in which the people were interested. It might be wise to spend nine days in the discussion of the question whether the Governor should be 30 years of age, and then throw out this proposition as unworthy of consideration. But such was not the opinion of Mr. S. He trusted this Convention would consent to a limited increase of legislative representation. The peopledid want single districts, but to accomplish that, they did not want a violation of every principle of harmony. He objected to the plan of the committee that it would lead to monstrous frauds in New-York by colonizing. He would increase the number to 40, make double districts, and have one senator elected every year. Mr. FORSYTH, in reply to the gentleman from Oneida, who had inquired when and where the people had demanded an extension of the number of Senators. said he would admit that this might not have been demanded in terms, but that the people have insisted that the Senate should be popularized none would deny. Difficulties had been urged in the way of accomplish. ing this, but he trusted they would not be found to be insurmountable. Looking at the history of the Senate, we should find that it had never been a popular body. No system could be devised, no number fixed upon,that would not present irregularities which could not be remedied, unless we disregarded county lines. He had figured until he was tired, and had not been able to fix upon any number that could avoid that difficulty. He could discover a sound reason for an increase in the number of Senators. In the early history of our Republic, it was thought necessary to interpose that body as a barrier between the property holders of the state and the great body of the people. This was the reason that that body was constituted of a small number. It was necessary for that object that it should be small. But now that the doctrine of checks and bits and bridles upon the people was no longer tolerated, the time had come when this body must be made more representative and 310 more assimilated to the wants of the people. Mr. F. found that the number of 32 was first fixed upon in 1801, when it was increased to that number from 24, the number fixed in 1777. He woo not do the men of 1801 the injustice to suppSe that they acted without reference to some principle. It was because 32 were then enough, taking into consideration the then pop. ulation of the State, and the interests which they were to represent. If 32 were enough now, then the number was infinitely too great in 1801. Was a body large enough to represent the people 45 years ago, a sufficiency for a population of 3,000,000? The idea is absurd. If the Senate was to have any reference to the interests of the people, the number must be increased. There was another consideration in the fact that in numbers there was safety. The principle of safety is to give the right of suffrage to every man. He would extend equal privileges to all. He did not believe that any class should exist which had interests adverse to another class.For the very reason that would lead him to in. crease the number of electors, he would increase the number of representatives. It would never be found by reference to history that any bulwark of freedom had been secured by an oligarchy. Every small body tends to an oligar. city and to the promotion of exclusive feelings. It was easier to be corrupted. He believed with the gentleman from Essex (Mr. SIMMONS) that this assembly, notwithstanding the torrents of abuse which had been heaped upon it, had been the true conservative body, and that the people had the greatest amount of safety in the Assembly. The Senate now represented nobody. It did not represent the whole people, for they did not vote for it. It did not in fact represent the districts, for the four senators represented diverse interests. There was not onlyno congruity of feeling between them, but they might be adverse to one another. They did not possess the public confidence. No one county felt that it was represented, hence it turned to its member of assembly, and the senate was left without care. There was one body in this Union, which, amid all the strifes of party and politi. cal zeal, had maintained its integrity, and the confidence of the people. This was the Senate of the United States. And what was the reason? Its constituency is singular, and the principle is one which we should measurably imitate. Its numbers increase with the increase of the states. Every new interest and constituency introduced into the Union immediately had its two senators in that body. Mr. F. considered this a sufficient argument in refutation of the absurd position that our senate should be thirty-two because it had always been thirty-two. Mr. BAKER believed we were prepared to vote, and he therefore moved the previous ques. tion, but withdrew it at the request of Mr. WORDEN, who desired to answer briefly an argument which had been urged. If the people had demanded any one reform more than all others, it was that there should be single Sen. ate and Assembly districts to equalize their representation in the legislature. The present constitution provided that each county, no matter what might be the population, should have one member of Assembly. By this provision there was an inequality of representation more odious than any now in existence in Great Britain.There were now counties, which sent one-eighth of the members of Assembly, and yet have less than 70,000 electors. While on the other hand, there were other eight counties, which had only the same number of representatives, with double the number of electors. This was a fact known and understood by the people, and that argument induced them to demand single districts. How did this inequality creep into the constitution? How came the provision to be adopted that each county was to have a representative, no matter what its population might be. It was because the President of the Convention of 1821 was himself the representative of a county, which had not half the population necessary to entitle it to a representative. Mr. W. would ask gentlemen if they were willing to go to their constituents, endorsing the further continuance of the gross inequality by which a minority could continue to elect a majority of the representatives? If so, he could tell them their course would not be sanctioned. Repre. sentation must come as directly from the people as possble. The idea that the Senate was to be the great conservative body, representing the moneyed interest, had long since been exploded. It should be increased that it might be more adapted to represent the wants of the people. But we were told this cannot be done without dividing counties. What objection was there in that? The people have suggested to us how this whole mattermaybe arranged. Dividethe state up into 144 single Assembly districts, irrespective of county lines, which are only im. aginary. The mode of electing and making returns could easily be arranged by law. Then make every three districts constitute one Senate district, and the whole work is done. He again repeated that it would not do to allow the unequal representation of the last 25 years to remain. The people would rise in their majesty and condemn the continuance of so gross an outrage upon their rights. Mr. BERGEN renewed the motion for the previous question, and it was seconded, 46 to 36. Mr. BAKER withdrew his proposition for 50. The first question was upon filling the blank with 48, and it was lost, as follows:AYES-Messrs. Angel, Archer, Baker,Bascom, Burr, Chatfield, Crooker, Forsyth, Gardner, Gebhard, Graham, Hawley, Kennedy, Marvin, Morris, Nicoll, 0'Conor, Patterson, Penniman, Russell, Shaver, Simmons, W. H. Spencer, Stephens, Taft, Taggart, White, A. Wright, W. B. Wright-29. NAY -Messrs. Ayrault, H. Backus, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brown, Brundage, Bull, Cambreleng, D. D. Campbell, R Campbell, jr., Candee, Clark, Clyde, Conely, Cook, Cornell, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforth, Dodd, Dubois, Flanders, Greene, Harris, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A. Huntington, E. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jones, Jordan, Kemble, Kingsley, Kirkland, Loomis, McNitt, Maxwell, Miller, Murphy, Nellis, Nicholas, Parish, Perkins,Powers,President,Rhoades, Richmond, Riker, Ruggles, St. John, Salisbury, sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Smith,Stanton,Stetson,Stow, Strong, Tallmadge, J J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Tilden, Townsend, Tuthill, Ward, Warren, Waterbury, Wil. lard, Witbeck, Wood, Worden, Yawger, Young-78. Mr. WORDEN moved a reconsideration.Table. On filling the blank with 42, there were ayes 23, noes 84, as follows: 311 AYES-Messrs. Archer, Bascom, Chatfield, Crooker, cer, Stow, Strong, Taft, Taggart, Townsend, Worden, Danforth, Gardner, Gebhard. Hawley, Jones, Marvin, A. Wright W. B. Wright, Young-42. Morris, O'Conor, Patterson, Penniman, Perkins, Rus- NOES-Messrs. Ayrault, Bouck, Brown, Brundage, sell, W. H Spencer, Stow, Taft, Taggart, Worden, A. Burr, Cambreleng, R. Campbell, jr, Candee, Chatfield, Wright, W. B. Wright-23 Clark, Clyde, Cook, Cornell, Crooker, Cuddeback, DaNAYS-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, H. Backus, Baker, na, Dorlon, Flanders, Graham, Hawley, offman Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brown, Brundage,Bull,Burr, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A. Huntington, Cambreleng, D. I Campbell, R. Campbell, jr., Candee, ton, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jones, Jordan, Ken, Kings Clark, Clyde, Conely, Cook, Cornell,2uddeback,Dana, Kirkl, Loomis Ni,, Maxwell cholas Dodd, Dubois, Flanders, Forsyth, Graham, Greene, Nicoll, Parish, Powers, President, Rhoades, Riker, Harris, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A Huntington, E. St. John, Sears, Sbaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Simmons, Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordan, Kemble, Ken. Stanton, Stephns, Stetson, Swackhamer, Tallmadge, nedy, Kingsley, Kirkland, Loomis, McNitt, Maxwell, J. J. Taylor, W.Taylor, Tilden, Tuthill, Vache, Ward, Miller, Murphy, Nellis, Nicholas, Nicoll, Parish, Warren, Waterbury, White, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, Powers, President, Rhoades,Richmond, Riker,Ruggles, Yawger-67. St John, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, -hepard, Simmons, Smith, Stanton, Stephens, Stetson, Strong, Mr. RICHMOND moved a reconsideration. Swackhamer, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Table. Tilden, Townsend, Tulhill, Vache, Ward, Warren, The motion to fill the blank with thirty-six Waterbury, White, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, Yawger, was also lost, ayes 44, noes 62 Young —84. was also lost, ayes 44, noes 62. Mr. RUSSELL moved a reconsideration. Mr. PERKINS moved a re-consideration.Table. Laid on the table. On filling the blank with 40, the vote was- The question now came back to filling the AYES-Messrs. Angel, Archer, Ayrault, Baker, Bas- blank with 32, the present number of senators. coin, Burr, D D. Campbell, Chatfield,Conely,Crooker, The vote was as follows:Danforth, Dodd, Dubois, Forsyth, Gardner, Gebhard, AYES-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, H. Backus, Bergen, Green-, Hawley, Jones, Marvin, Mliller, Morris, Mur- Bouck, Brown, Brundage, Burr, Cambreleng, R.Camp. phy, O'Conor, Patterson, Penniman, Kichmond, Rug- belljr., Candee, Clark,Clyde,Cook,Cornell, Cuddeback, gles, Russell, Salisbury, Shaver, Simmons, Smith, Dana, Flanders, Graham, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter,A. W. H. Spencer, Stetson, Stow, Swackhamer,Taft, Tag- Huntington, E. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordan, gart, Tilden, Townsend, Willard, Worden, A. Wright, h ennedy,Kingsley,Kirkland, Loomis, McNitt, Maxwell, W. B Wright, Young-47. Murphy, Nicholas, Nicoll, Parish, Patterson, Powers, NAYS-Messrs. H. Backus, Bergen,Bouck, Bowdish, President, Rhoades, Riker, Ruggles, St. John, Sears, Brown, Brundage, Cambreleng, t. Campbell, jr., Can- Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Stanton, Stephens, Strong, dee, Clark, Clyde, Cook, Cornell, Cuddeback, Dana, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Townsend, TutDorlon, Flanders, Graham, Harris,Hoffman,Hotchkiss, hill, Ward, Warren, Waterbury, White, Witbeck, Hunt, Hunter, A. Huntington, E. Huntington, Hutchin- Wood, Yawger —3. son, Hyde, Jordan, Kemble. Kennedy, Kingsley, Kirk- NOES-Messrs. Archer, Baker, Bascom, Bowdisb, land, Loomis, McNitt, Maxwell, Nellis, Nicholas, Bull, D. D. Campbell, Chatfield, Crooker Danforth, Nicoll, Parish. Powers, President, Rhoades, Riker, St. Dodd, Dorlon, DuboisGardner, Gebhard, Harris, HawJohn, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Stanton, Ste- ley, Hoffman, Jones, Kemble, Marvin, Miller, Morris, phens, Strong, Tallmadge, J.J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Nellis, O'Conor, Penniman? Perkins, Richmond, Rus. Tuthill, Vache, Ward, Warren, Waterbury, White, seil, Salisbury, Shaver, Smith W. H. Spencer, StetWitbeck, Wood, Yawyer-63. son, Stow, Swackhamer, Taft, Taggart, Tilden,Vache, On filling the blank with thirty-nine, there Willard, Worden, A. Wright, W. B.Wright, Young-43. were ayes 42, nays 67, as follows:- So the Convention resolved that the number AYES-Messrs. Angel, Archer, H. Backus, Baker, of senators should remain unaltered. Bascom, Bergen, Bowdish, Bull, D. D. Campbell, Cone- Mr. CHATFIELD moved a reconsideration. ly, Danforth, Dodd, Dubois, Gardner, Gebhard, Harris, Laid on the table. Kemble, Marvin, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, O'Co.nor, Patterson, Pennlmani Perkins, Richmond, Rug- The Convention then at 7 o'clock, adjourned gles, Russell, Salisbury, Shaver, Smith, W, H. Spen- to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. THURSDAY, JULY 23. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. HITCHCOK. Mr. TUTHILL presented a petition from citizens of Orange county, on the subject of railroad companies, which, on his motion, was read. Mr. T. moved its reference to the committee of the whole having in charge the report of the Seventeenth standing committee. Mr. RICHMOND moved that it be printed. Mr. BROWN said it was a subject which was of great moment to his constituents, and to the people of the state. He alluded to the power which the legislature had given to railroad companies, to take private property, and he contended that it should never be done but by the intervention of a jury. After some discussion, the petition was refer. red to the committee of the whole having in charge the report of the Eleventh standing committee. The printing of it was negatived. TERMS OF SENATORS. On the motion of Mr. JONES, the unfinished business, the resolution under consideration at the adjournment last night, was taken up. The PRESIDENT having ruled that the Previous Question, which had been sustained by the Convention, cut off propositions to fill the blanks as to the senatorial term. A long and confused discussion ensued. Messrs. PERKINS and NICHOLAS appealed from the decision of the Chair. Finally, however, it was proposed to take the question on the resolution, without filling the blanks, the Chair having suggested that the committee of the whole would have full control of the question. Mr. CHATFIELD called for the yeas and nays on the resolution. He thought gentlemen would discover that the true course (cries of order) would be the straight-forward, manly course, (renewed cries of order). The yeas and nays were then ordered, and being taken resulted thus-yeas 76, nays 45. So 312 the resolution was adopted without filling the tion. He conceded that the popular mind might blanks. be in error. For sixteen years of the last twen. Mr. BAKER then moved that the vote filling ty, he had been proclaiming that the majority of the first blank with 32 be reconsidered, in order the people were wrong on all the great questions that th estion might be settled this morning. of politics and the public interest. He had not Mr. iUKtNS moved to lay the motion on been a flatterer of the people, but he had not, the table, and it was carried by a majority of nevertheless departed from the great principle one-50 voting in the affirmative, and 49 in the with which he set out. If the people were in negative error, the people themselves must correct that Mr. LOOMIS offered the following resolu- error. He would bring the senate within the tion. immediate action of he public will. The gen. Resolved, That the committee of the Whole having tleman from Dutchess proposed a term of four In charge the report of committee No. 1, be instructed years; but could not that gentleman carry his to fill the blanklbr the term of office with three years. mind back to a memorable instance when the Mr. CAMBRELENG submitted to the gen- senate of this state, relying on the party in powtleman from Herkimer the propriety of offering er and on Its influence, and not on the public his resolution in blank, and thus give every gen- will, committed a high outrage on human rights? tleman an opportunity to offer the number he Now would the Senate have dared to do that if preferred. they had been obliged to go home immediately Mr. LOOMIS said they had already instruct- and put themselves on the judgment of their coned the committee to leave the term in blank,and stituents? He might cite other instances. for hence such a resolution would not be in order. they were abundant, where the public will and Mr. CAMBRELENG then moved to strike the public interest had been disregarded; and out three and insert two. doubtless because the day of reckoning was far Mr. PATTERSON did not see any good and removed. They had carried out the behests of substantial reason why a senator should not be political cabals rather than the public sentiment made accountable to his constituents as often as on great questions of momentous importance to once a year. If they were brought more fre. the people of the state. He had now only to quently before their constituents, they would be say that if the Convention would give them a better senators. senate with a sufficient number to represent fulMr. JONES preferred the amendment of the ly and truly the public will, he should go for gentleman from Suffolk. It was undoubtedly one year; for he agreed with the gentleman from true that there were sometimes unfaithful repre- Essex, that the true conservative body was the sentatives, and that might be owing to the great House of Assembly. That body always more extent of the districts and the long term of ser- truly reflected the public sentiment. Its memvice,the senator being in the one case unacquaint. bers considered themselves responsible to their ed with the interests of his constituents, and in constituents for every act they do. He could the other too independent in his responsibility. not approve the suggestion of the gentleman Mr. LOOMIS modified his amendment by from New York (Mr. JONES) to elect one body striking out three years and inserting "one and divide them because the people desired to month." designate their representatives in the senate. - Mr. JONES was opposed to the proposition And in reply to the gentleman from Wyoming of the gentleman from Chautauque. He thought who referred to the U. S. Senate, he said that there should be some slight difference both as to body was organized on no principle like the sendistricts and terms between members of the two ate of this state. It was a body representing branches of the legislature. If however the ob sovereignties, and not the people in a subordiject were to have them for precisely the same nate capacity, as they were represented by memterm he would propose thresimple mode of elect. bers in Congress. ing a larger number to the assembly, and when Mr. LOOMIS said on this question he considthey arrived here they could divide themselves ered most of the permanency and value of legisinto two bodies and send one portion to the oth- lation depended. It was not-a small, but a great er House. Thus the object of the gentleman question. It was one which had been deemed from Chautauque could be accomplished. worthy of the consideration of the best writers Mr. A. W. YOUNG differed with the gentle- on political economy. It had been regarded man from Chautauque in his idea of a senate.- with deep attention by the constitution making That gentleman's plan was contrary to the fun. power of every government,both on this and the damental principles on which our senates have old continent. The law making power was di. been established. He referred to the term of vided into two branches, and for what purpose? service in the U. S. Senate and in the senates of Why not adopt the principle which was estabother states. lished at the French Revolution, and have one Mr. RUGGLES moved to strike out " one general Assembly? Because it was designed to month" and insert "four years." He did so on guard against improvident legislation-against the ground that it the term under the present legislation under the influence of passion, and organization were too long, that objection would feelings of excitement, and the impulse of the be in a great measure if not entirely remov. public for the moment, without deliberation, ed when the power of appointment shall have without time for reflection, without careful conbeen taken away from the senate. sideration. It had been deemed wise that the Mr. WORDEN was of opinion that the true various branches of the legislature should be conservative body in this government, was the elected for different terms, and by different conpeople. If this were true, they had a plain rule stituencies, and that one body should go out in to guide them in the formation of this constitu- rotation. We have three branches of the law 313 making power-the two Houses and the Execu. previous question; but the Convention refused tive-the one elected for a short term of one to second it, yeas 30, nays 73. year in small districts, to represent localities Mr. BRUCE then replied to remarks which and to express more immediately the popular had been made, denying that the lar voice judgment; the other branch it was desirable had called for single senate dis i assershould represent larger districts, and be elected ted warmly that the demand ha. aadee'by for a longer period, that they might express the the people. It had also been meu unwise to more deliberate judgment of the people. The dispense with experience in the eate. In re term of the Governor was two years, and as p'y to this, he alluded to scenes which oarrsr that term and also that of the Assembly would in the Senate during the last winter, whe&en, probably be unchanged, the term of the Senate though nominally young, but old in experience, should be longer to give to each a different cha- had been ause andi the active participators racter. He should be content to see the term of in conflicts discreditable if not disgraceful.the Senate fixed at three years, the Governor By long continuance in political life, there being two and the Assembly one. Thus they was danger that men would become corrupt; would secure a system of checks and safeguards and this was another reason why he desired fre. which have been considered essential in a re- quent changes. publican government. They would be to us Mr. BASCOM said that having taken some what monarchies and aristocracies were in the part in preparing the public mind for a revision governments of the old world: they were safe of the constitution through a convention, he and prudent, and secured caution in action.- could not be silent under the congratulations we Some gentlemen preferred four years and others had heard from a leading member of this body, two years. He had no serious objection to ei- that two months of the session had cone by, and ther of them, but on balancing the matter he nothing done towards changing the organic law. thought three years was a just and proper me. These congratulations came with propriety per. dium. He alluded to the terms of service in the haps from that quarter, along with the epithets general government, and then briefly replied of jacobinism and radicalism and democracy, to the remarks of Messrs. JONES and WORPEN. which had been applied so liberally to those He denied that the popular voice had called for who came here, like himsclf,with the honest in. single senate districts, and held that the pro- tention of carrying out the reforms that had been posed elections in alternate senatedistricts would so loudly demanded by the people. But he give opportunities to ambitious, unscrupulous could tell that gentleman, and all others who partizans to colonize and corrupt, and give a might be disposed to use these terms as a rewrong direction to the popular opinion. proach, that these epithets and all the bug-bear Mr. CHATFIELD replied, and contended for reminiscences of the French Revolution, that annual elections by the people of one-half the they were without effect upon him, and would senate each year-24 districts to elect each one be quite as ineffectual with the masses-who senator annually, whose term of service shall be perhaps had not forgotten that conversatism two years, thus constituting the body of 48 sena- slaughtered more at St. Bartholomew than were tors,with small fractions of but 4000,and securing slaughtered in the darkest days of revolutionaexperience with accountability. He did not be. ry France. He commenced his career with that lieve that small representative bodies were de. gentleman and the People's party. and he had sirable in a republic. not seen occasion to change his views since.Mr. TALLMADGE spoke in opposition to Mr. B. went on to say that the distinction bethe amendment to fix short terms for the Sen. tween the popular branch and the other,had been ate. He said he was not a democrat-he was too long kept up. It was time that both branchnot a Jacobin-he was a republican. He refer. es had become popular branches. That could red to French history, where democracy ran only be!one by making small districts, and as mad, and to the instructive lesson it presented; many districts as senators, their election and and said that if these amendments should be a. term to be annual. There was no danger that dopted it would be the breaking up of the whole the people would not see to it that men of the theory of our government, and the commence- requisite experience were put there. Nor did ment of a revolution. it follow that there would be no re-elections.Mr. CAMBRELENG replied to the speech of The people of Vermont elected their supreme the gentleman from Dutchess. court judges every year, and yet re-elected them, Mr. NICHOLAS after briefly replying to the when they served them well. He denied that gentleman, from Suffolk, spoke to the subject un- the people only desired that the Senate should der discussion and contended that we should be stripped of their judicial functions. They preserve the permanent character of the Senate, had complained of the Senate since 1824, when and not weaken its influence by shortening too 17 men undertook to stand between the people much its term of office-that if practicable, the and their rights. They had not forgotten more Senate districts should be single; and that- recently when 17 men in that body deprived though this was of less importance than the oth. them lor one year of half their-representation er positions-the number of senators should be in the U. S. Senate. Nor had they forgotten increased. the kind of law reform which the senate gave Mr. PERKINS advocated a three years' term them a few years ago. He insisted that we for senators, and great caution in making chan- must have a senate which should feel its respon. ges in that body,where experience was so neces. sibility to the people. It might be called radisary. calism and jacobinism, to insist upon these and Mr. STRONG, after a few remarks on the other real reforms; but the people would be con. propriety of terminating this debate, moved the | tent with nothing short of them. They had 314 none of these fears, lest in rooting out tares, we should destroy some of the wheat also. They desired to see the good conserved, and the bad eradicated, and so long as we kept within that limit, \ oing to fear for ourselves or for the Mr. NICOL isired to get at the question of the number of Senators, under the motion to reconsider, and for that purpose he hoped the penditg question would be laid on the table.The matter of apportionment and the terms of senators depended on the number id on,and this ought to be definitely settled irt. If we had thirty-two senators, the term of three years was out of the question-but we must have a term of two years or double districts. Itwould be exceedingly unwise to have a term of two years and have the whole Senate go out at tile end of the two years Better have half go out each year. No doubt there was a great desire to have the term shortened, and di. minishing the size of the districts; but he did not believe that the people desired to have both branches come entirely anew every two years. There should be some stability in the Senate, and he presumed all would recollect instances when but for the check of the Senate upon a large majority of the house, the people would have been sufferers. Mr. WORDEN asked the gentleman to state an instance. Mr NICOLL alluded to the passage of bank charters by the house. Mr. RUSSELL:-Twenty bank charters passed here in one year which were killed in the Senate. Mr. WORDEN:-How many bank charters passed the senate, that were killed here? Mr. NICOLL continued his remarks upon the importance of a check in the senate upon the caprices of the moment-insisting that there had been and would be occasions, when the importance of this safeguard had been and would benefit. Mr. MARVIN here came forward with a comnproise between the conflicting opinions as to the term of office and the number of senators. He was for increasing the senate, but was willing to yield something. He proposed 42 sena. tors, term three years-the assembly to consist of 126 elected annually-the state to be divided into 126 assembly districts, each choosing a member-no town or ward to be divided, unless it shall be entitled to two or more membersthree assembly districts to form a senate district, choosing a senator each year. If gentlemen would go with him to enlarge the senate, he would go with them to reduce the assembly, and for a term of three years. Mr. TILDEN thought the term should be first fixed, in orler intelligently to dispose of this whole subject. If we adopted a term inconsis. tent with the number thirty-two, then we must reconsider that number-for the number must depend mainly on the term. He believed the sense of the convention was in favor of a larger term than one year. He thought we should have two years. Possibly there was a strong dispo. sition also lo diminish the size of the districts. There was a strong repugnance also against exclnpA tf the people from the elections for senators, when the elections come round. He did not want to increase the Senate much; but to attain other objects, he would increase it to 48, it necessary. But the term of office was the key on which the system depended; and he hoped that question would be determined first. He did not think the compromise of the gentle. man from Chautauque bettered the matter at all. It still left but one third of the electors to vote annually, and this third scattered all over the state. He was for adhering to the usage under which the people of the whole state voted for senators every year-and the beauty of our system was that whilst the assembly was elected anew annually, a portion of the Senate, experienced in the detail ot legislation, and familiar with its policy, remained. As to the popular demand for single districts, he did not dispute that there had been a strong disposition to diminish the size of the districts, as far as that could be done consistently with the principles on which that body could be constructed-though that sentiment, he presumed, was more prevalent in other districts than his own. His constituents had not demanded single districts. If he was committed at all, it was to the other principle, that the whole people should vote annually for senators. To that principle he was committed by public expression made before his election. By adopting forty or fortyeight senators, you could accomplish all these objects, shorten the term, and increase the number. Mr. TALLMADGE explained. in reply to Mr. CAMBRELING, that he did not utter the sentiment imputed to him by that gentleman-that seventy years ago our system of government was rendered perfect. But he might say that the gov. ernment had been republican in its theory and construction, whatever may have been ilie abuses that had grown up in its administration, under the strong circumstances of controlling necessity which then conspired to produce these abuses. Gentlemen who now alluded to these abuses in such strong terms, were not born early enough to know what it was to have no bank circulation in the state, an.empty treasurywhen members of the legislature were paid one dollar a day-when a large portion of the state was a wilderness, and when necessity compelled so many to emigrate to what was then the great West-when the policy was to people and subdue those parts of the $ate, and as part of that policy, to facilitate the means of intercommunication, and to bind distant parts of the state to. gether in bonds of interest and feeling. Then it was that, to encourage post-routes between remote sections of the state, bounties were given in the shape of monopolies, excluding competition altogether. Gentlemen would find, on looking into the early history of legislation, boun. ties for a one-horse mail between the cities of New-York and Albany; and the exclusive pri. vilege of a stage-coach line between the two cities-then some two or three weeks apart by water. What might be regarded now as abuses, were then regarded as acts of the noblest patriotism, having in view the binding together of remote sections of the state by facilitating intercourse. So in earlier times, ferry privileges were graitecd i perpetuity., hat between Red. 315 Hook and Esopus was held under a grant in fee from Charles II. to Peter Radeliff. the ancestor of Judge Radcliff. So the ferry between Newburgh and Fishkill was owned by Mr. Powell, ander an exclusive grant from George III., and was at this moment of very great value. But enough of these reminiscences. Mr. T., after replying to Mr. BASCOM as to the ise of the terms Democratic and Jacobinical, which had been applied rather to things than to personsMent on to express himself favorable to single Senate and Assembly districts, and to combat the objection to a system under which we could not vote for senator every year. Mr. TILDEN said that was not his position -but that the whole people might vote at senatorial elections, when held. Mr. TALLMADGE had no objection to that system, provided the whole legislature was not to be changed at every election. There must be some stability in the senate. Else every election would be a revolution. Mr. CAMBRELENG congratulated himself and the Convention that he had misunderstood the gentleman from Dutchess, and that he did not think our constitution so perfect as Mr. C. thought he did, from the gentleman's frequent allusions to the wisdom of our ancestors, as authority for us. He congratulated the Convention also on these colonial reminiscenciesand for these authorities for monopoly and privilege which formed the very basis and fabric of the British government He hoped these re. miniscences would be often repeated, as nothing could better serve to convince this body of the necessity of reform in regard to the power of the legislature to grant these special privileges -and he trusted that the practice under Charles If would be always brought forward when we were about reforming the constitution. Mr. RICHMOND rose under calls for the " question" from all quarters, to say a few words in reply to the gentleman from Dutchess, who he said had been well designated as the connecting link between this body and the Convention of 1821, of which that gentleman, and one other member here (Mr. NELSON) were members. Mr. R. hadl a respect for that gentleman's opinions. He did not believe the gen. tleman would derive the people of their rights but his regard for antiquity and for what had formerly been done, might perhaps be too strong for the people of the present day. Mr. R did not participate in that gentlewan's fears lest we sho'd get into the situation of revolutionary Francefor he did not believe there was any more reform spirit here than was for the good of the people. Mr. R. went on to show what was done by the legislature in the sagacious times al. luded to so often-to the perpetual bank char. ter which got through under the guise of a project to supply the city of New York with pure and wholesome water-to another bank charter the terms of which were that they should loan a favorite family a large sum of money to supply the city of New York with pure and whole. som'e milk, &c. &c. Again, as to the idea that we must have a permanent body in the Senate to check the freaks of the Assembly-Mr. R. alluded to the bill of 1841 for continuing the en. largement-which he said passed the Assembly first and came back from the Senate with an in crease of the appropriation by two millions.Again the denunciations ot radicalism came, he said,with a singular grace from one who in a report made to this body had proposed Agreater infringement on private rights thana %d ever been attempted before. He alluded to the power proposed to be given to private corporations to take private property in case the public good might require it. Mr. R. said the Anti-renters claimed that the public interest required-and no doubt w:|was so-that they should own in fee the land they now lease. And if it was right to take private property in one case, it was in the other-and as right to have an anti-rent jury to assess the value, as to have a rail road company's tribunal to assess for them. The Convention then took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. TE.RMS OF SENATORS. The unfinished business of the morning was announced. The question being upon filling the blank in Mr. LooMIs' resolution with four years-the motion was lost-ayes 17, nays 78. AYES-Messrs. Brundage, Cornell, Hunt, H. Hnntington. E Huntington, Jordan, Kemble, Kennedy, Nelson, Nicholas, O'Conor, Rhoades, Ruggles, bhepard, Smith, Stephu.ns, Tallmadge-17. NOES-Messrs. A, gel, Ayrault, H. Packus, Bascom, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brown, t:ruce, Bull, Burr, Cambreleng, 1). D. Campbell, R. Campbell jr., Candee, Clhatfield, Clyde, Conely, Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, flanforti-, Dibois, Flanders, Forsyth, Gardner, Granam, Harrison, Hart, Hawley, Hotchkiss, Hunter, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jones, Kernan, Loomis, lMcNitt,,Viarvin, Maxwell, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, Parish, Patterson, Penniman, President, Richmond, Riker, St. John, Salisbury, Shaver, Shaw, Sheldon, Simmons, E. Spencer, W.H Spencer, Stanton, Stetson Stow, Strong, Taft Taggart, J. J. Taylor, Townsend, Tuthill, War. ren, Waterbury, White, Willard, Wood, Worden, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Young, Youngs-78. The question was then taken upon filling with three years, which was also lost-ayes 42, noes 61. AYES-Messrs. Angel, Bergen, Bowdish, Brundage, Bull, D. D. Campbell, Conely, Cornell, Dodd, Graham, Greene, Harrison, Hoffman, Hun er, A. Huntington, E. Huntington, Jordan, Kemb e, Kennedy, Kernan, Loomis, Marvin, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, Nelson, Nicholas, Nicoll, O'Conor, Penniman, Perkins, Powers, Rhoades. Ruggles, Shepard, Simmons, Smith, E. Spencer, Stephens, Tapgart, Tallmadge, Youtig-42. NAYS-Messrs. Ayrault, H. Backus, Bascorm, Bonck, Brown, Bruce, Burr, Cambreleng. B. Campbell jr., Chatfield, Clyde, Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforth, I)ubois, Flanders, F,,rsyth, Gardner, Harris, Hart, Hawey, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hitchinson, Pyde, Jones, Kingsley, Kitklatid. McNit', Maxwell, Miller, Parish, Patterson, President, fichrnond Riker St John,:salsbury, Shaver, '.haw, Sheldon, W. H Spencer, St nton, Stetson. Stow: Strong, Tafi, J J Taylor, Townsend, Tuthill, Warren, Waterbury, White, Willard, Wood, Wolden, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Youngs-61. The blank was then filled with two yearsayes 80, noes 23. AYES- Messrs. Ayrault, H. Backus, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brown, Bruce, Brundage, Burr, Cambreleng, D. D Campbell, R. Campbell jr, Candee,, hatfield, Clyde, C. nely, Cuddeback, Dana, Dantorth, Dodd, Df bois, Forsyth, Gardner, Graham, Harris, Harrison, Hart, Iotchkiss, A. Hun ingt)n, E. Hun'ington, Rutch. iison, Hyde, Jones Jordan, Keinhle, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland, Loomis, McNitt, Marvin, Maxwell, Miller, Morris. Murphy, Ne Nicoll. OConor, Parish, Penniman, Powers, President, Richmond, Hiker, St. Jobn, Salisbury, Shaver, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Simmonsa 316 E. Spencer, W. H Spencer, Stanton, Stephens, Stetson, that there should be single senate districts; and Stow, Strong, Taft, J. J. Taylor, Tuthill, 'Ward, Wa- this mainly for the reason, that now, they were terbury, White, Willard, W.b.Wright, Yawger, Young, Yoluns-80. compelled to vote for candidates living miles off NOES-Messrs Angel, Bascom, Bull, Cornell, Crook- -for men of whom they knew nothing and cared er, Flandrs, tireele, Hawley, Hoffman, Hunt, Hunter, less-of whom they had heard nothing until his Kennedy, Nelson, Nicholas, Patterson, Perkins, Rug- name was announced. gles, thloades, Smith, Tdggart, Tallmadge, Towusend, nam e was announced n the newspapers. A Warrn, Wood-2.. word in reply to his friend from Erie (Mr. Mr. KEMBLE moved a reconsideration of STOW), who had spoken as though he believed two years; Mr. HAWLEY of three years; and the county of Erie was to be trodden under foot, Mr. KENNEDY of four year-q-Which motions and her interests disregarded. This report gave lie on the table. to Erie county a senator to represent it by itself, Mr. WHITE now moved this amendment to with a deficiency of 6,000. Yet Erie county is Mr. LOOMIS' resolution:- trodden under foot and her rights disregarded! Resolved, That the committee of the whole, having The county o Erie has a population of 68,671 in charge the report of committee number one, be in- which with a representation of four members strueted so to settle said report as to provide that sen- on this floor, makes a deficiency in the ratio.ators shall be electe I in sixteen districts. Chautauque county, with 45,983 in population, Mr. RICHMOND moved to amend by stri- and a large excess over the ratio of about 12,000, king out 16 and inserting 32. had but two. And Wyoming county, whose Subsequently, Mr. W. modified his amend- population was 31,000 and over a: the last cenment so as to instruct that two senators be elect- sus, had but a single member. He could not see ed in each district-and Mr. R. his proposition, what reason the gentleman had for complaint, so as to require that one senator shall be elect- and he would not say a single word further. ed in each district. Mr.CROOKER said he had no apology to make The question was on the latter proposition. for rising to take part in this debate. He had Mr. STOW earnestly appealed to the conven- heretofore occupied but a very small portion of tion against the single district system-which he the time of the Convention. The question now insisted, without dividing counties, would do under discussion was one most deeply interest. great injustice. He did not expect to see ma- ing to the people of Cattaraugus. Their disthematical equality carried out in the arrange- trict, as gentlemen would perceive bylooking at ment of the districts, nor should he complain of the map, embraced a single range of counties, any general rule, if a good one, though itmight commencing with Chenango and ending with injure incidentally his constituents. But he ap- Cattaraugus. With an average breadth of apealed to tie sense of justice of the Convention, bout forty miles, the length was not far from not to adopt a system which, in reference to sin- two hundred and thirty. In shape it resembled gle counties which in no contingency deemed a piece of ordinary shirting stretched to its utthem to have increased a single one in popula- most limit. The people of Cat:araugus had for tion until that population had doubled. As no a series of years, been compelled to vote for county was to be divided, those that were group. senators of whom they knew nothing. He vened together in districts would have all the ad. tured to assert that nineteen-twentieths of the vantage of an increase upon a new apportion. people of that county, in every three cases out ment, whilst the single counties must double be- of four, had never heard of their candidate for fore they could get an additional member. The senator until they found his nomination in the representation should be equalized either by di- newspapers Such, with allhis advantages and viding counties, or by double districts, that the knowledge of men in the district, had been his whole state might vote at the same time, and own condition. And for all practical purposes that we might never have 'an entire change of ofrepresentation, Cattaraugus might as well the senate in a single year. He would endeavor have been connected with Suffolk and the counhereafter, and he believed he could satisfactori- ties on Long Island. There was no communion ly show, that it would be better for the whole of feeling between the people of Cattaraugus and st te to have double districts, and he certainly Chenango. There was no union of interest be. desired to avoid this injustice to the county which tween them except upbn those great questions he represented. that affect and interest the state as a whole.Mr. SHEPARD, so far as his own city was The people of these counties on questions of concerned, believed that the single district sys- a local character, often the most deeply felt, were tern for the senate would be unwise; especially antipodes of each other. If there was any one if only half of the people of the state were to question upon which the people of that county vote at each election. The convention having were unanimous, it was in demanding the single decided against biennial sessions, what was his district system. The expression of their ofavorite plan, he went for the double district pinion had on this subject been universal.system as the next best thing. When coloniza- They desired the privilege of knowing the tion could be so easily practiced as in New. candidates for the senatorial office. And they York, the single district system, with half of the demanded it as a right of this Convention.people only voting for senators at each election, But the gentleman from New York (Mr. SHEPwas out of the question. Besides there should ARD) raises, as also other gentlemen, objections be two classes of senators elected by the votes against the district system. His first objection of the whole people, and going out in alternate was that if the senators should be divided into years-and for obvious reasons. two classes, and one.half elected annually, then Mr. PATTERSON supposed when he came but one-half of the districts would have a senahere, that if there was any one question which torial election each year. He also urges that was settled in the minds of the people, it was in the city of NewYork the colonizing system S 317 would be practiced to a great extent. Sir, there is great force in these objections. I can never consent to engraft upon the constitution a pro. visioni liie that reported by the committee. The provision that the people shall vote in one-half of the districts in one year, and the other half in the next, I cannot subscribe to. It is not only absurd but dangerous. I can very easily imagine that there are many thousands of unmarried voters in the city of New York who would change their residence from one district to a. nother to enable themselves to vote every year for senators if that plan is adopted. This class are mere boarders, and in many cases would only have to cross the street to reach another district. All parties are ready to resort to colonizing. This is an evil that must be overcome. But, sir. both of these objectiois of the gentleman from New York are easily obviated. Let the whole people vote in the same year. Let us have annually a full and fiee expression from the electoral body. To accomplish thi. object, and to avoid both the objections of the gentleman from New York, we must elect the whole senatorial body at the same election. Let them be elected for one or two years, and let them all go out of office together. Let them come into and go out of office with the other state officers. And with every new administration let us have an entire new senate fresh from the people. But it is strongly urged that we ought to have a long term of office for senators in order to avail ourselves of their experience in legislation. I ask the Convention to look at the New England States. In Massachusetts, Connecticut and Vermont, aye, and in democratic Maine and New Hampshire, the Senate and Assembly are elected annually, and severally hold their offices for a single year. In Rhode Island also, the same principle prevails. Btt Rhode Island has so far swerved from the democratic line, that I will not hang much of weight upon her example. In the states of North Carolina, Georgia, and even in Tennessee, the prolific mother of presidents, the same principle obtains. The Senate and Assembly are elected for equal terms of office. They come in and go out together. I appeal to the recollection and candor of gentlemen to say whether any portion of our Union is better governed than New England. Have not their laws been as wise and well considered as our own. Have gentlemen heard of any outbreaks or outrages committed by their legislators upon popular rights. If they have, then they have been nore fortunate than myself. So far as my information extends, there is no portion of our Union that has been governed by wiser laws, or where the rights of the peop e have been better regarded or main-' tained. Many gentlemen on the other side of this question insist that we must have experienced legislators in the senate. Sir, but a few days ago, the same gentlemen professed great and unlimited confidence in both the intelligence and virtue of the people. From the little experience that I have had in legislation, I am of opinion that it is more desirable to get rid of that very experience for which gentlemen contend. I should prefer a legislature fresh from the plough, the workshop and the body of the people, to most of your experienced members of the Senate. They acquire but little of useful knowledge here. They learn, it is true, the quips and quirks of legislation on rules and questions of order, by which they are enabled to overreach and detraud the junior members. This I submit is an intelligence and experience that are neither useful nor desirable, but better lost than gaineJ. But, sir, I have no doubt that the people are competent to select senators that will be capable of discharging their legitimate duties. If they should fail to do so; if they should be incapable of discharging the duties of their station when they get here; then let them employ some itinerant lecturer upon legislation and questions of order and parliamentary law to instruct them. Let him take his place in the speaker's chair and school them in legislation. There is no more necessity for this experience in the Senate than in the Assembly. We have got along without it in the latter body for years. What we have lost by the want of experience is more than made up by an honesty of purpose fresh from the body of the people. I feel a deep solicitude for the result of the vote upon the question before us. I strongly hope the amendment in favor of single senate districts will prevail If it does prevail, that vote will cheer the hearts not only of the people of Cattaraugus but of the stale at large. Mr. STOW, in reply to Mr. PATTERSON, said he had not complained of the inequality which Erie county now sulfered; but he had complained, that while all other counties in the state were allowed for their increase in population, those composing single districts were not allowed at all, unless that increase was sufficient to entitle them to two members. This was unjust, and in spite of all the gentleman had said, he still declared its injustice. In Erie county there were enough aliens naturalized since the last census, to more than overbalance the deficit under the ratio. A lair calculation, he believed, would give to Erie county an excess instead of a deficit. In five years it had increased 16.3S4; and he believed that an increase of population should always be taken into consideration in fixing prospective representation-representation should increase with population. Chautauque in the same time had decreased one thousand. If the gentleman desired to take the mathematical view of this question, he would inquire of him how Chautauque would be entitled even to her two members, if she went on decreasing for the next five years as she had for the five pre. vious? Erie county would number 95,000 taking that ratio, Chautauque but 43,000. But he would allow that gentleman to take either the mathematical or the common sense view of this matter. Mr. KIRKLAND, in reply to Mr. STOW, asked, if injustice was done to Erie under the present apportionment, what was to be said oi Oneida? Erie with the same representation here, had 10.000 less population than Oneida.And yet Oneida asked for single districts and was urgent for it. Nor could he understand how Erie was to suffer prospectively, if she increas. ed enough to have two senators, any more than if it were two or more counties, and they all increased to that amount. le repudiated the gea. tieman's argument in favor of double districts, though Oneida was worse off than Erie. Mr. STOW did not argue in favor of double districts; but to show that you could not have single districts without dividing counties..Mr. KIRKLAND said that did not follow: but every consideration required single districts, even though there might be a little inequality. Mr. K proceeded to urge the necessity of single senate districts, as the onlyway to bring the representation home to the constituency. This was an overpowering argument in favor of sin. gle districts. The voter would know his representative. We had heard much about the absurdity of voting for senators only once in two years. Why, practically we only voted once now in four years. What interest had the people in Cattaraugus in the man who lived in Chenango, or the elector in Jefferson of the candidate in Oswego? Better vote for your own man once in two years, than to go through the idle form of voting for the candidates of others three out of every four years. It was objected that this would operate badly in New York on account of colonizing. This would be remedied by adopting the principle presented in the report of another committee-and provide for the sixty days residence. But if this was so very objectionable, then adopt the suggestion of the gentleman from Cattaraugus, and elect the whole senate every two years. Mr. MORRIS went for single districts both for the Senate and Assembly. The great cause for calling this Convention was that the constituency were misrepresented by those they sent here. They gave pledges which they never redeemd-made promises which they never keptbut they came here and used the power given them to put money into their pockets or to advance the interests of aspirants for popular favor. And how had this happened? Because their constituents did not know them-but were connpelled from the constraint of party organization, to vote for them, without knowing them or their priciples. Now we in New York would be exposed to the mischief of colonization whether you gave us single or double districts. And instead of shrinking from carrying out a just principle because fraud might defeat it, the true course was, if possible, to guard against the fraud and save the principle. New York had seen in the habit of sending 13 representatives here, and yet it had so happened that it was an extraordinary thing if 100 persons in New York knew personally all their delegates. Mr. M. knew a young man being sent here from New. York, whom they supposed there when they were voting for him that they were voting either for his uncle or his grand father. They never discovered their mistake until the delegation got together, when they found they had elected a very clever boy of 21, instead of a man of experience. [Laughter.] Mr. RICHMOND: The mistake was not dis. covered until he came here to be sworn. I was here then. Mr. MORRIS continued:-When a r umber of members were to be elected, by the same constituency, these members must of necessity almost be unknown to the constituency; and they were selected for the purpose of performing other services than mere legislative duty. The time came round for instance, when a flour inspector, or a beef inspector, or a tobacco inspector was to be appointed. One wanted jullge, another notary public, another master in chancery, another commissioner of deeds, andl so on; and they clubbed together, each man picked out his own friend, and by a combination for office and office alone, they packed your committees, controlled your conventions, made your nomina. tions, and elected your delegates. It was this conduct which, so far as regarded New York, made them cry aloud for a Convention, and when they called, they called also for single districts, and they sent us all here instructed. Several of the New York delegation, Mr. TILDEN, Mr. KENNEDY, and others, expressed dissent from this statement. Mr. MORRIS continued: —First the 15th ward instructed. Second, Tammany Hall, by her resolutions. Then the committee by a printed circular. Mr. KENNEDY denied that he was instruct. ed or pledged to single districts. Mr. MORRIS (in reply to some of the dele. gation) said he received a circular calling on the delegates to sustain single districts. Mr. KENNEDY:-Yes, but I did not say I was in favor of it. Mr. TILDEN stated his interpretation of the letter addressed to the delegates. It was whether they would go for senators' being elected in districts, so that one senator should be elected in each every year. Mr. MORRIS asked whether a circular was not sent to us not only enquiring, are you in fa. vor of single districts-but saying in effect, s.r, you shall go it? Mr. TILDEN:-Senate districts t Mr. MORRIS:-Single distriic. Mr. JONES said he had a copy oif th cie. lar, and, if the gentleman would allow him, he would read the interrogatories. [Cries of "read it."] Mr: MORRIS:-Is it in print or in mant script? Mr. JONES said it was a correct cop) a. dressed to one of the delegates, not to himself. It was, " Are you in favor of senate and assembly districts, to elect one member each at each election?" Mr. MORRIS.-That's it, sir. That was the substance of the enquiry-adroitly drawn to neet the views of a committee who were loud in the demands for single districts. Adroitly drawn, he repeated, so that one man might read it one way, another another. It was claimed that that was not a pledge-but merely asked a question. Mr. M. knew that. But he asked, what intel. ligent, honest democrat, when his constituents put a question to him to answer, did not under. stand what they wanted him to say and do? And what honest democrat would not, if opposed to the pioject contemplated, say so plainly and aboveboard, before his nomination-that his constituents might select some other who could and would represent their wishes? The circu. lar he received was precisely in the words read, and they conveyed to his mind what he believed his constituents intended-and that was that they demanded single districts, and for the rea 319 sons he had stated. He had knbwn persons here of the central power, sending down to NewYork, saying you must elect this man-and he had known the constituency to be perfectly hood. winked with the idea that they were nomina. ting the man they really desired. And at last they resorted to pledges For they found that they might nominate the cleverest fellow in the world, and yet when he came here, they found him going point blank against their wishes.We in New-York, ast he Convention was a ware, from the defects in the report of ccommittee number five-did not always write exactly as we intended-and the pledges we sometimes drew were so porously drawn, that there were holes where some might creep out at; and men did make promises to the ear and break them to the hope. This single district system would cure all these difficulties. And though it might result, instead of sending sixteen members here all one way in having a somewhat divided delegation in point of party. But why should not the fair majority in a district have a voice here? What reason was there for swelling up their voice in the aggregation of the majority of voices in a great city? Districts that were called whig to-day, might be democratic to-morrow —and vice versa. He believed the great mass of the people, call them what you would, were democratic-and that this would be demonstrated by the vote on the new constitution, if we made it as it should be, democratic from the heart to the extremities. For the reasons he had stated, he went for the single districts-and he should have been glad to have increased the Senate so that the districts might be smaller and the candidates brought nearer home to the electors, and they would have no need of exacting pledges for the honesty and fidelity of representatives. Mr. TILDEN spoke of the unfair presentation that had been made by his colleague of the mode of conducting political affairs in NewYork, and of the imputations cast by implication upon the constituency. Abuses and evils there were undoubtedly, but not to the extent described by his colleague, nor to any extent that marked out New York as the peculiar object of this inflict;on. Towards the close of the last session, Mr. T. sai l, he did receive a letter similar to that read. He certainly understood from it that the matter about which the nomi. nating body were particularly solicitous, was that the whole people should vote at every sen. atorial election. He supposed his constituents would expect, in case we should adopt the two years, we should have double districts, if the three years term, treble districts, &c. The city of New York was not particularly solicitous to reduce the senatorial term. at all events not to bring it down to one year. It seemed to be generally understood that one of the purposes for which the Convention to revise the city charter was called, was to make one of the boards of the local legislature elective for a longer period than one year, and to insert a two-third veto instead of the mere majority veto that existed now. When he answered the letter in question, he stated that he should probably vote against single assembly districts-that his predisposition of opinion, so far as he had formed one, was averse to single senate districts -and it was with a full knowledge of theCe facts that he was sent here. He stated this to remove the impression that seemed in a very vague and general way to have been created by his colleague, that those of the delegation who opposed the single district system were violating their pledges to their constituents. If he should be convinced by discussion here that it was wise to depart from the old organization of the state, so far as to establish single senate districts, he should vote for it-not without. If the principle of single districts was adopted, in its full latitude, without regard to county lines, the representation in the two houses would be completely at the mercy of the accidental majority that had the apportionment to make at the end of every ten years. An increase of the senate to 48, a term of two years, and double districts, would, in his judgment, secure all the objects gentlemen had contended for here. But to break up county lines and throw open the whole representation in both houses to a scramble every ten years, and you would do more mischief than you proposed to remedy. Mr. SALISBURY said that when he assented to this report, he did not feel that he was bound to follow out every particular which it contained. There were some of the items to which he was opposed. But the portion which he approved and advocated was the proposition to divide the state into single senate districts. As to the details of the plan, he felt less solicitude. He was willing to hear the suggestions of others, and if any better plan could be presented, he would vote for it. His colleague objected that great iijustice would be done to Erie. Mr. S. should justify himself before his constituents first because, if he had understood their language, they had instructed him to do tils very thing. If he had misunderstood them, he had acted in good faith. As a member of the committee he had endeavored to carry out their will. But according to his colleague, we wero proposing to do our immediate constituents gross injustice. But it had never occurred to him that Erie county could come here, and with a good grace complain of this arrangement. Perhaps' at the next enumeration, we might have a large excess. But Mr. S. could only say that this was the best system which presented itself to the committee. The proposition of his colleague seemed like saying to our constituents that they did not understand this matter as well as we did after we arrived in Albany. We knew better than they and would allow them to vote for two senators instead of four ao heretofore. Mr. ~TOW had not advocated double districts; he only proved that single districts could not be made, without dividing counties, if we were to have any thing like equal representation. Mr. SALISBURY was satisfied with the ex. planation. He repeated, he was not wedded to the details of this plan. He was prepared to assent to any alteration that might bettter it. It was impossible to have an equal representation in the Senate or Assembly, without dividing counties. At present his constituents would have their full representation. 4s to any in 320 crease, he could not see how this or any other plan could guard against injustice. Mr. TAGGA1T should vote for single dis. tricts, with an express reference to disregarding county lines. Mr. O'CONOR moved to adjourn. Mr RUSSELL demanded the ayes and nays, antl the House refused to adjourn, ayes 28, nays 77 Mr. RUSSELL advocated the three years' term for senators-saying that on that point he had changed his views, and had for the first time come to agree with his colleague (Mr. PERKINS). If we were to have a higher branch, the term should at all events be longer than one year. The stability and character of the U. S., Senate, which he attributei in a high degree to the long term of six years-he confessed had impressed him with a strong inclination towards a similar principle in our own senate. And when we could accomplish this, by increasing the number of senators and forming double or treble districts, it seemed to him that we should comply with the general wish in regard to small districts, and still retaint he desirable feature of securing in a portion of our body some experience and familiarity with the affairs of this great state. Mr. RICHMOND reminded the gentleman that the Convention had fixed on the term of two years. The only question was on single districts. Mr. RUSSELL was aware of that, and that 32 was to be the number of senators, unless these votes were reconsidered-and he trusted that the body would see that it was impracticable to have any thing better than a rotten borough system, under this principle of single districts, and 32 senators. And he insisted that when we came to carry out the plan, (as we ought, if we adopted the principle) that we must abandon that system. It was an iron-bedstead rule. that could not be carried out into detail, without gross inequality and injustice. He insisted that we might adopt some compromiseeither abandon the single district system or increase the number of senators. His plan was 40 senators with double districts-each electing one every year. Or he would agree to 39, and single districts-or to 48 with a three years term and 16 districts-any thing indeed but a practical absurdity. As to breaking up old county lines, he was utterly opposed to that plan. But if we must have 32 senators, he should vote for double districts. Mr. RICHMOND could have wished for an increase of senators-but that having been voted down, he did not feel at liberty to ab.indion also the single district system; nor, from the best calculation he could make,did he see that double districts would create any greater equality.And if absolutely necessary, some few counties might be divided, and the details of the single district plan very much improved. Mr. STRONG spoke briefly in reply to Mr. RUSSELL. Mr. St. JOHN moved the previous question. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to adjourn. Lost, 44 to 62. The previous question was not seconded, 46 to 55. But there being no further disposition to de. bate,it being nearly 7 o'clock, the convention proceeded to vote, and the motion of Mr. RicHMOND in favor of single Senate districts, was agreed to, as follows:AYES-Messrs Archer,Ayrault,H Backus,Baker,Bascom,Bouck,B1owdish, Burr, Gambreleng, D l).Campbell, It.;ampbell, jr., Candee, Clark, Clyde, Cook, Crooker, Dana, Danforth, Iodd, Dorion, Flauders, Forsyth, Graham, Greene, Har is, Harrison, Htchkiss, Huinter, Ks. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordan, Kertnn, Kingsley, Kirkland, Mc.\itt, Marvin, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Nellis, Nelson, Nicholas, Parish, Patterson, Pennimnan, Powers, hhoades, Richmond, Riker,.-t. John, Salisbury, Sears, Shaver, Shaw, Sheldon, -immons, Smith, E. Spencer, W. H. Spencer, Stanton, Strong, Swackhamer, Taft, Taggart, rallmadge, J. J. raylor, W. Tayior, Townsend, /Wara, Warren, Wa erbury, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, Wordeu, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Young, Youngs-79. NOES-Messrs. Angel, Hergen, Prown, Bill, Chatfield, Conely, Cornell, Cuddeback, Duhois, H rt, Hoffman, Hunt, A. Huntington, Jones, Kemble, Kennedy, Ioomis, Murphy, Nicoll, O'Conor, Perkin;, President, Ruggles, Rus-ell, Shepard, Stephens, Steson, Tilden, Tuthill, Vache, White-31. Mr. SMITH moved a reconsideration. Table. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to adjourn. Agreed to. Adj. to 9 o'clock to morrow morning. FRIDAY, JULY 24. Pra.er by the Rev. Mr. HITCHCOCK. Mr. TALLMADGE presented a petition from Madison county, for the prosecution of the enlargement of the unfinished canals. Referred. SENATE DISTRICTS. Mr. TAGGART laid on the table the following:i" Resolved, That the committee of the whole having in charge the report of committee number one, be instructed to report to this Convention a provision that senate di-tricts shill tie comp,sed of contiguous tei ri lory, in as neatrly as practicable a compict forn, and shall ccntaiu as ned rly as may be an equal number of inhabitants; but i, the formation of senae districts, no town or ward shall be divided, unless such town or ward shall be entitled to more than one senator. EXPENSE OF REGISTRATION. Mr. TALLMADGE offered the following:Resolved, That the Comptroller of the city of New: York, report to this Convention copies of the hills which make up the items of $4,748 24 s- t forth in his former st, temaent as paid lor ' printing and posting of rPgistry and ma s of districts, for registration expen. ses of election of November 1840;" ad also copies of bills which compose the item of $3,319 19, set forth in said former statenient as paid for "printing and posting lists of registry and ma ps of districts for registration expenses ofelection of April ltd4l," also colpe of the bills which composed the item of $3,099 39 set forth in his former statement as ' pid f,,r s cond registration expenses of Nov mber election of isil.' Mr. NICOLL enquired the gentleman's ob ject. 321 Mr. TALLMADGE replied, that certain statements of expenses had been received from New. York, which required explanation. These expenses were urged as a bar to a registration of voters. He wanted the items, whereby it was made out that $4000 was expended for printing maps, which he would undertake to do for $1000. Mr. NICOLL said he should be satisfied with the reasons, if he thought there was any foundation for them. Mr. KENNEDY hoped his colleague would withdraw all objections He was satisfied, that when they got the information, the gentleman from Dutchess would be perfectly well pleased, as well as his political friends-if, by the way, the gentleman had any-for a few days ago he had disowned all political friendships. Those who were once associated with him, were the persons who had pocketed the whole amount of the funds. Mr. K. was anxious that the gentleman should aet the information. Mr. TALLMADGE begged to say that he did not say he had no political friends, for he had many He had said that no corrupt party would own him, because he would tell the truth. This habit, which some men had, of constantly mis. representing what was said on this floor, be. spoke the habits of early life. It was a prac. tice that was only worthy of mere creatures of party, third-rate lawyers, and bar room politi. cians, who misquoted for the purpose of hang. ing a speech upon it. Mr. TOWNSEND called the gentleman to order. He was using language which in his cooler moments he would regret. Mr. TALLMADGE was through. He took nothing back; but had plenty more of the same kind, whenever gentlemen saw fit to call it out. At the request of several members the resolution was again read. Mr. TALLMADGE again explained. His purpose was to meet objections which had been raised to a system of registration. If the returns he called for showed the expense to be so bur. densome, anj if they were not a sufficient defence of registration, he should abandon it. Mr. WORDEN thought the enquiry foreign to this Convention. He rose to move to lay it on the table, but coming as it did, from his ven. erable friend, he felt great reluctance to do so. With great deference to that gentleman, however, he would again say that the Convention could have nothing to do with the facts that might be elicited. Mr. TALLMADGE repeated that he should be glad to see a system of registratien; but if the expense as set forth in the report before them, was well founded, they ought none of them to thing of registration. But it it should turn out to be a cover for great abuses, it was prop. er perhaps that they should know. He called for the yeas and nays on his resolution. Mr. TOWNSEND apprehended when the gentleman got the information, it would assume a different aspect. There was one particular item of $4000 ior printing, which certainly appeared large, but the Convention should under. stand that New York was divided into about 90 districts,in which the officers had to have maps; these formed a large item, besides the large a21 mount of printing which was absolutely neces. sary. There were many persons employed to accomplish a very extensive duty, and though the amount seemed large,he doubted not it would be satisfactorily accounted for. Mr. HARRISON begged to call the attention of the Convention to some remarkable circumstances connected with this report. It would be observed that in the election of April, 1840, there were various charges for the same servi ces that were rendered at the election in the November following, and that there was a remark. able discrepancy between them, as made for the elections of 1840 and 1841. At the November election in 1841, at which the Registration act went into operation, there was a charge for for marshals of $3,282. The charge for peace officers at the April election was but $346.Now he wanted, and he presumed that was the object of the gentleman from Dutchess, to understand the cause of this difference. The services were probably the same under one as the other. The next charge to which he wished to call attention, was for commissioners for divi. ding the wards into election districts. For the April election the charge was $93 75, but in November it was $4,500. Some explanation in relation to this extraordinary charge was necessary. There were charges for room hire amounting to $1393; and if gentlemen would take the trouble to review this report, they would find similar discrepancies between the April and November election. He hoped the resolution would be adopted, that the people might compare the advantages with the cost. Mr. KENNEDY had no disposition to prevent the passage of this resolution. As to the epithets used by the gentleman from Dutchess (Mr. TALLMADGB) Mr. K. knew not whether the gentleman intended to apply them to him; but if it was intended to designate him as a lawyer or a bar-room politician, the gentleman was entirely mistaken in his man. Mr. K. made no pretension to either of these characters. He was here as a citizen of New-York, and as one, was deeply interested in her welfare. He repeated, he had no objection to the enquiry into the items of expenditure under the system of regristration in that city. He had desired if possible to avoid bringing any question of politics into this body. He was particularly anxious that it should be avoided, and any thing else that would have that tendency; but when the gentleman from from Richmond (Dr. HAnRISON) introduced his proposition to provide for a registration, he offered the enquiry which drew out the information alluded to. He had merely called for aggregate amounts, that the aggregate expense incurred might be seen; but he had no objection to have the details called for. It was evident however that the gentleman from Richmond did not, as he himself confessed, understand the matter from the positions he had assumed. He (Mr. HARRISON) had contrasted the expense of laying out the wards into dis. tricts in 1840, with the expense incurred in November in registering the votes! and he had asked with apparent astonishment, how such a difference could exist as that between $93 and $4500. For the gentleman's-informatioa, he wo'd say that three commissioners were appointed by 822 the legislature to divide the city rmap, fbr which they charged $93 75. This was simply for di. viding the city map into election districts; but the $4,500 was incurred by commissionersthree in each of the 17 wards-who sat for a number of days, more than a month, he thought for more than two months, to receive the registration of voters, and having done that, to arrange their names, together with their residences, occupations, &c., and publish and post them at the corners of the streets in their respective wards, to give the people a chance to examine the lists and to challenge. They sat again to receive the challenges and to revise the registration; and there were seventeen times three of them, and their labors were much greater than those of the three gentlemen who simply divided the map of the city. Perhaps the gentlemar, would now see there was some reason for the disparity. Mr. BROWN thought bef re they called for such voluminous information they ought to know if there was any necessity for it. He therefore moved the reference of this resolution to the committee on the elective franchise-Agreed to. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention resumed the unfinished business of yesterday, the pending question being on Mr. LOOMIs' resolution in regard to the terms of senators. Mr. STETSON moved to amend Mr.WHIT.'s amendment by adding thereto the following: " And so that all the electors of the state shall be allowed to vote at every eltction of senators " So that when amended it would read thus: "t And the said committee be also instructed so to settle said report as to provide that one senator shall be elected in each district [and Ao that all ihe electors of the talte sh t be allowed to vote at ever election for tenltors;;] Mr. TOWNSEND said he would like to hear the gentleman from Clinton (MIr. STETSON) explain the object of his amendment. Mr. STETSON said his object was to have the whole Senate elected at one time, every two years; so as to avoid the " ride and tie" system recommended by the committees, by which one-half the Senate would be elected every year in alternate districts if the odd and even members and the electors of all the districts be bienially disfranchised. He did not like either mode, but he thought his plan the better of these two alternatives now left to us. He (Mr. S.) had voted against four years, and also against three years, in settling the duration ot a senator's term. He had voted for a term of two years. He voted also in favor of an increase of senators to forty. By thus increasing the senate, we could make twenty double dis. tricts, and approximate to the popular demand for single districts without being compelled, as we now are, to adopt a system grossly unequal in representation; and incapable of being made equal, for we must take county lines as we found them, and they tould not be moved to meet equality in the division of representation. By the double district plan, too, we could secure the desirable feature of stability, by electing one half annually and permit every elector to vote at ver election, which in thi opinion was indispenabl i ny wise plan. Thee were the advantages which he had hoped to have pre. served by an increase of senators and double districts. But yesterday the Convention had decided by a strong vote to stand upon the number "thirty-two" and by a still larger vote not to elect them in double, but in single districts.All hopes of forming districts with any degree of equality in representation, were then entirely gone: this unequal system of immense excess In some districts and immense deficiency in oth. ers, was to pass into the new constitution.He could now only choose between a biennial election of the whole body, which he did not like, and the mode which he had ventured to christen ' fide and tie,' and against which he had made war from the time he first heard of it. In his judgment it was the worst of all the modes suggested. What was it? Why, the single senate d'stricts were to be numbered fron one to thirty-two inclusive, and sixteen senators were to be elected annually; in one year, only the electors in the districts bearing the odd numbers of one, three, five, and so on, were to vote atid fill up the Senate; the next year the districts having the even numbers would vote and the dis. tricts of odd numbers would remain respectively silent and so on alternately. One year the electors of the odd districts were to exercise the ex. elusive power of popular sovereignty in the Senate, and the even districts in the same year were to hold the reins of stability. The next year they would exchange places, but the voice of the whole people could never reach the annual accessions to the Senate, nor would the stability which any intended to be secured by this alteration have any relation to the will of all the e. lectors of the state, unless from accidental coincidence of majorities between districts which would, and districts which would not vote.But there were other and greater objections. If he was not mistaken, it would produce in its practical working more corruption of the elective franchise than any system he ever heard suggested Indeed to him It looked like an invi. tation from us to the electors to operate on the elections by means of corruption, frauds and also by colonization. In New York there would be four districts, and two of them only would vote annually. It would be hardly possible, with the present election laws relating to courti ty and ward residence, to prevent voters in the silent districts from changing their residence so as to vote every year. He would admit that this objection had been partially met by the suggestion to change our election laws; but that would be nmposing great inconvenience upon electors, and would too often unjustly work a forfeiture of their right of suffrage. But the other objection was the one to which he wished to draw the attention of the Convention-' -e had not heard any reference to it-the probable use of corruption funds within the districts which would vote. He would endeavor to show how it would work practically. First, it was quite possible that there would be great amelioration of partisan feeling hereafter: but he would not deceive himself with the belief that the people would not hereaf;er be di. vided into parties of some kind. All public questions of interest naturally resolved them, selves into tffihtmative and negative positions 323 as much so as did different plans for the construction of a house, or other work. In the end it came to the division of those for, and those against. This showed that new parties would spring up, even if present ones ceased to exist. We were then to have political parties; and he begged gentlemen to look ahead, and see the position in which parties would be placed, in order to acquire or retain the power of that body, if the " ride and tie" system prevailed. Sixteen senators would hold over; and we will suppose them divided equally, or very near equality, in political sentiment. Sixteen are to be elected in the districts of odd members-he meant one, three, five, and so on. Of these sixteen, twelve may be supposed to be divided in politics equally. and to have a fixed political character, that could not be changed; but the remaining four districts are known to be doubt. ful and uncertain. These then would be the keys to the power of the Senate; and it would be known all over the state, long be. fore an election, which were 'he uncertain and doubtful districts and how many of them a party would have to carry to secure the power. Is it not plain that, as by your " ride and tie system" you will take away from the other hal' of the districts the right to vote and thus decide this question of power, you will create a motive in them, or with politicians at least, to bring improper and corrupt influences upon the doubtful districts which do vote? The mode too, helps to designate the very place where the election is to be carried. Indeed, said Mr. S., is it not easy to foresee plainly as though it were written in letters of living light upon the walls of this chamber, that a few uncertain, small single districts will, under the " ride and tie" system, always be the Palo Alto, and Palm Ra. vine of all future contests for power in the Senate? It seemed plain to him, and if he was in error. he hoped to be enlightened. If this objee. tion was not obviated, he did not see how he could vote for the single district system at all; but he believed the Convention would consent to make it more acceptable by adopting his amendment to elect the body together once in two years. Mr. RHOADES contended that as the character of the senate would be changed by depriving it of the appointing power and the judicial functions which it now possessed, there would be less danger than was apprehended from alternate elections in districts, Mr. SIMMONS thought the amendment ought to be adopted. Annual elections were on the side of safely. That system was found to work well in the Eastern States, and in our assembly. Much, however, might be sa d in favor of biennial sessions, making the term of the assembly two years and the senate four. This would prevent the continual confusion attendant on the making and unmaking of laws; and the turmoil and cabals of political elections and party strife, and would restore peace to the counties. He wished, however, to have the terms of the two bodies of our legislature so freed as that in different ways they might collect public sentiment, and have a double guarantee of what the sentiment of the people was, as contradistinguished from local and tempor ry excitement. Mr. A. W. YOUNG urged briefly the system of alternate elections. If they adopted the 60 days' residence qualification, as had been proposed, he thought many objections would be obviated. Mr. CROOKER urged the adoption ol Mr. Stetson's amendment. In reply to Mr. RHIOADES, he insisted we were safe enough with senators elected every two years. The, e was check enough against excesses, while there was the advantage of a clearer reflex of the popular will. If, however, experience was so essential, they might Lire some old senator as a drill sergeant. How did the history of the Senate of this state support the argument of the gentleman? Why it was a demagogue factory, wherein they learned how to trepan each other. He would point the gentleman from Onondago to the last session of the Senate in particular, which was spent by senators in scandalizing each other and singing paeans to their own praise. He wanted to get rid of the senate as a body, once at least in two years, and he would elect them at the same time with the Governor. Mr. RUGGLES'said the plan now proposed, he was of opinion, would be the worst of all possible plans. If they elected the two houses every year, they gave up the idea that the Senate was a continuous body. He contended too that experience was necessary to make our senators acquainted with the affairs and condition of the state-its finances, its literary institutions, its schools, &c., &c. It had been argued that, as in the eastern states, the people would re. elect their Senators, and thus secure the experience on which so much reliance had been placed; but he doubted if this would be the case if two years were the term to be fixed. He preferred one year to two, for he was satisfied re-elections would be more likely to occur with a one year's term Mr. JONES differed with the gentleman from Dutchess. In the Assembly he had found more knowledge of our state prisons, state finances, and state institutions than in the Senate. In the Assembly our most valuable reports on these subjects had originated. Mr. SWACKHAMER continued the arg* ment in favor of Mr. STETSON'S amendment. Mr. HOFFMAN agreed with the gentleman from Clinton that there were great evils to be apprehended from the " ride and tie" system of elections. So of the other system of electing the whole Senate in a lump. He desired a sys. tern which should represent the united, solid judgment of the people, maturely made up, and such as they would abide by for a long term of years-that in the Senate, there should not only be experience, but that the member when elected should know that his term of service was such that if he devoted himself to a great subject, he might be able to bring it fairly before the legislature and the public, and if it had merit to perfect its details and make it part of the abiding system of legislation. This was the great use of the Senate. Vascillatine and un. stable legislation would be the result of an annual election of both bodies. If a senator were, elected for three yearshis chances of doing good were greater than if elected for a shorter term. He attributed the inefficiencv of the e 324 nate for some years to the possession of the ap. pointing power, and to the duties attendant on the Court for the Correction of Errors. If then they would have judicious legislation and a per. feet system oflaws, they must fix the senatorial term at three years. But from the position in which the question now stood, there seemed to be no alternative but to go for electing the whole Senate at once. Mr. TAGGART rose to illustrate the position which had been taken, by a reference to his own district, in which he -said there never had been an instance of a member not being re-elected if he desired it, except in case of death There was then no danger of a want of expe. rience in the Senate, nor of so much as was ne. cessary to a correct understanding of the busi. ness of the Senate. The ayes and noes were then taken on Mr. STETSON'S amendment, and it was carried, ayes 100, noes 12, as follows:AYES-Messrs. Angell, Archer, Ayrault, H. Backus, Bascom, Bouck, Bowdish, Brown, Bruce, lrundage, Bull, Burr, Cambreleng, D. D Campbell, R. Campbell, jr, Candee, Chamberlain, Chatfield, Clark, Clyde, Cook, Cornell, Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforh, Dodd, Dorion, Flanders, Forsyth, Gardner, Ge!.hard, Graham, Greene, Harris, Harrison, Hart, Hawley, Hoffiman, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jdnes, Kemble, Kennedy, Kertan, Kingsley, Kirkland, Loomis, iVcNitt. Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, Nelson, Nicoll, Parish, Pitterson, ennirnan, Perhins, Powers, President, hich. rond, Riker, Kussell, St. John, Salisbury, ears, Shaver, Shaw, Sheldon, -h pard, Simm ns, Smith, W. H. Spencer, Stanton, Stephens, Stetson, Stow, Strong, Swackhamer, raft, Taggart. J JTay or, Townsend, Tuthill, Vache, Van Schoonhoven, Ward, Warren, Waterbury, White, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, Worden, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Young, Youngs —t10 NAYS —Sessrs Bergen, Conely, Dubois, E. Huntington, Jordan, Marvin, Nicholas, 'Conor, Khoades,Ruggles, K. Spencer, 'allmadge —2. Mr. CROOKER called for the yeas and nays on the resolution as amended, instructing the committee of the whole to make 32 single senate districts-term of office two years, all the senators to be elected at once,-and it was adopted ayes 92, noes 19. Mr. BROWN moved that the Convention go into committee of the whole on the report of committee number one. The motion to go into committee prevailed, and Mr. PATTERSON resumed the chair, and announced that the article would be amended in accordance with the instructions of the Conven. tion. Mr. HUNT moved to make members of the Assembly elective "biennially." Lost. Mr. TAGGART moved to make the members of Assembly 136 in number. Mr. PENNIMAN moved 144. Air. MURPHY 148. The question was taken on the highest num. ber first, and the amendments of Messrs. MUR. PHY and PENNYMAN were rejected. Mr. CONELY moved 140 members. Lost: The proposition for 136 was also lost. Mr. A. W. YOUNG moved 130. Lost. Mr. SWACKHAMER, with a view of establishing biennial sessions hereafter, moved to insert the word "biennial" as the term of service of the assembly. Lost. Mr. SIMMONS moved a substitute for the ection, to provide that the Senate shall consist of 32 members, who shall be chosen for four "years, and the Assembly of 123 members, who shall be elected for two years; that the senators shall be elected by double districts, and that the legislative sessions shall be held every second year. The CHAIR ruled the substitute out of order, as inconsistent with the instructions given to the committee. The fifth section was then taken up, as follows:Substitute the following for section five: t5 The State shall be divided into thirty-two districts, to be called Senate districts, each of which shall choose one Sen tor. The districts shall be numbered from one to thirty-two inclusive. District No. 1 shall consist of the counties of Suffolk and Queens District No. 2 shall consist of the counties of Kings and Richmond. District. No. 3 shall consist of the firs', second, third, fourth. fifth and sixth wards of the city aid county of New York. District 'o. 4 shall consist of the seventh, tenth, thirteenth and fourteenth wards District No. 5 shall consist of the eighth, ninth, and fifteenth wards District No. 6 shall consist of the eleventh, twelfth, sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth wards. District No 7 shall consist of the counties of Westchester, Putnam and hockland. District No. 8 shall consist of the counties of Dutchess and Columbia. District No 9 shall consist of the counties of Orange and Sullivan District No. 10 shall consist of the counties of Ulster and Greene. District No. i shall consist of the counties of Albany and. -chenectady. District Nio. 12 shall consist of the county of Rensselaer. District No 13 shall consist of the counties of Washington and Saratoga District No. 14 shall consist of the counties ol War r n, Essex and Clinton. District No. 15 shallconsist of the counties of Washinglon and Saratoga. District No. 16 shall consist of the connties of Herkime<, Hamilton, Fulton and Montgomery. District No 17 shall consist ol the counties of Schoharie and Oi sego. District No. IS shall consist of the counties of Delaware and Chenango. District No. 19 shall consist of the county of Oneida. District No. 20 shall consist of the couuties of Madison, and Oswego. District No. 21 shall consist of the counties of Jefferson and Lewis. District Io. 22 shall consist of the county of Onondaga District No. 23 shall consist of the counties of Cortland, Broome and Tioga. District No. 24 shall consist of the counties of Cay uga and Wayne District No. 25 shall consist of the counties of Tompkins, Seneca and Chernung. District No 26 shall consist of the counties of Steu. ben and Yates District No 27 shall consist of the county of Monroe. District No 28 shall consist of the counties of Orleans, Genesee and Niagara District No. 29 shall consist of the counties of Ontario ~ind Living-ton. District No 30 shall consist of the counties of Alle. gany and Wyonm;ig District No. 31 shall consist of the county of rEri. District No. 32 shall consist of the counties ofChau. tauque and Cattaraugus. Mr. JORDAN moved to substitute for the first sentences, the words-"the legislature shall at their next session divide the state into thirty-two senatorial districts, to be composed of contiguous territory, in as near a compact form as may be without dividing counties"' 325 Mr. J. said this amendment was for the pur- The CHAIR interposed. The only question pose of avoiding a lengthened discussion-on the was, " shall the decision of the Chair stafnd as apportionment of members. the judgment of the committee?" Mr. R. CAMPBELL briefly opposed the a. Mr. CLYDE only desired to say that he was mendment. willing the "gag" should be removed, but he Mr. STOW moved to strike out the words hoped the gentlemen who should hereafter con. "without dividing counties," and insert " with. sume the time would be held responsible, and not out dividing assembly districts "* the convention. He wished the people to underMr. TAGGART followed, and was just en. stand that. tering upon the substantial part of his argu- Mr. TAGGART had entirely misunderstood ment, when the application of the five minute rule. He was The CHAIRMAN announced the expiration not aware that those gentlemen who had occu. of his alloted five minutes. pied two.thirds of the time for the last five or six Mr. WORDEN moved that the gentleman be weeks, intended or designed-for it was those allowed to proceed. gentlemen who had adopted this rule-to bind Mr. KENNEDY inquired if the committee others up to five minute speeches, with no op. could give the gentlemanleave to proceed in op- portunity to speak again on the same question. position to a rule established by the Convention. He had merely intended to make a statemantby The CHAIRMAN replied that it could only figures, and to say that hall' of the representa. be done by unanimous consent. tives on the floor were brought here by 1,061,. Mr. SIMMONS (emphatically)-That rule 000 persons, while the other half was brought must be altered, or I shall cease to be a member here by a population of 1,338,000. of this body. [Laughter.] Mr. STRONG and Mr. KENNEDY called to Mr WORDEN inquired if the Convention order could impose such a rule on this comm ttee? Mr. TAGGART insisted that the point of or. The CHAIRMAN supposed it could. der should be put in writing. Mr. RICHMOND moved that the committee Mr. KENNEDY'S point of order was read. rise and report, with a view of reconsidering that was that the gentleman from Genesee was rule in Convention, debating the subject matter of the apportion. Mr. TAGGART said with great earnestness, the j appeal and on that I call for the yeas and nays. [Laugh.n m t he des ion a point of or. ter, and cries of "oh, you can't have the yeas der. and nays in comittee.'] a The CHAIR ruled that the gentleman from The CHAIR put the question on rising, and Genesee was not it order. it was lost.Mr. WORDEN (to Mr. TAGGART): Appeal The question then recurred on the amendment. Mr. WRDEN (to Mr. TAGGART) Appeal Mr. HOFFMAN hoped it would be lost. It from that. (Laughte). the question is on never would do to send this apportionment to the appeal. ethe legislature. Mr. RHOADES (who had just entered the Mr. TAGGART inquired if the rule would House) desired to know what the decision was preclude him from going on now. he CHAIR supposed it did. from which the appeal was taken. Mr. TAGGART inquired if a member could The CHAIR recapitulated the circumstances. only speak once in committee of the whole. Mr. RHOADES enquired if in speaking they The CHAIR replied, but once to the same could adopt the "*' ride and tie" system. If so, question. perhaps the gentleman firom Genesee, having Mr. TAGGART desired the Chair to read exhausted his 5 minutes, could get a colleague the rule. to continue his argument for 5 minutes more, The CHAIR read the rule, as follows: and then another for 5 minutes more, and so on. wl Wheon the Ceonvntiof Cosllbimmitteeo ne, the mwould take occasion to remark that the time to bers engaged in deb te shall not be allowed to speak which gentlemen were limited was much too more than five minutes on a:ny one question." short. The CHAIR construed this rule as restricting Mr. TILDEN: That is not in order. (Laugh. members to five minutes on any question. ter). Mr. CHATFIELD appealed from the deci. The CHAIR so ruled. sion. Mr. WARD was satisfied that he was not.Mr. CLYDE said perhaps he might be in. But he hoped the gentleman from Genesee might dulged for a few moments. [A voice, " Oh be allowed to go on and complete his speech. you can talk all day on that."] He had no de. Mr. HARRIS said if he had occupied the sire to talk all day, nor even five minutes. He chair, perhaps he should have felt constrained was one of the number that voted the other day to make the same decision; but he should vote for what was called " the gas." He had not against sustaining the Chair, nevertheless-for occupied the floor himself, and there werq at the rule was abused. It was a sell.censure on least ninety others there who had not occupied this body. He was for a strict construction of the floor one hour of the eight weeks of the ses- the rule, as limiting the entire body to live min. sion. Perhaps many of the ninety were as ca. utes discussion on every question. Such a rule pable of occupying the floor as many of those should receive such a construction, and no other. who had consumed so much time, but they had He was one of those to whom the gentleman been silent listeners; they had sat here to be in. I from Columbia (Mr. CLYDE) had alluded-whc tructed. I had not occupied one hour of the time of the 326 Convention. He had listened, and with some pain,*day after dayThe CHAIR:-The gentleman is not in order. [Laughter ] Mr. HARRIS asked to be indulged a moment -[Cries of " No, no,")-but the opposition ceasing, went on to say, if he must return to the subject immediately before the committee, that he could not make the remarks he desired to make there; but he did desire to say a word or two on those frequent lecturesMr. WORDEN:-Oh, we know what you would say. Mr. HARRIS said he was persuaded, with this " gag" upon them. they could not proceed with their business. He thought they had bet ter rise and report back to the House, that there they might retrace their steps. Having made a silly rule, they should at once rescind it. Mr. JONES said he did not vote for this rule, and therefore was not responsible for it. He was however sorry to hear the remarks of the gentleman from Albany, denouncing the rule as absurd and silly. It was a reflection on the majority that passed the rule. Mr. KENNEDY remarked that they deserved such reflections. Mr. JONES regretted also to hear the gentleman from Albany say, because he believed the rule was silly and absurd, that he should vote against sustaining the Chair, and thereby put the Chair in a wrong position. There was an. other mode of correcting the evil. It was to return to the House, and if the rule was silly and absurd, reconsider and reject it. The Chair had decided correctly, under the rule; and could not have decided otherwise. It was for the committee to say if the Chair had not decided cor. rectly. He hoped the decision would stand. Mr. STETSON said he had nothing more to say, for the gentleman from New-York had just uttered what he desired to say. He thought the Chair should not be made the "scape goat" in this matter. Mr. WORDEN said whatever they might heretofore have thought of this rule, they would now see that it would not work well. It was not calculated to promote progress in their business,-that theycould all see. [A voice-aye, that's the rub.] But he respectfully asked the gentleman from Otsego to withdraw his appeal. Mr. TALLMADGE hoped it would not be withdrawn. He hoped the vote would be taken upon it. He voted against the rule in the house, for the reason that he deemed it indiscreet. The parliamentary rule required them to consider propositions in committee of the whole, and then the convention passed a law which prevented their executing the rule! He was against the rule, though in favor of sustaining the decision of the Chair. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN had no doubt the rule had acted beneficially, for by this time it must have convinced themThe CHAIR interposed. The gentleman was not in order. [Laughter.] Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN had supposed that the whole merits were involved; but he felt bound to say that the CHAIR was right, for the rule undoubtedly cut off every man at t.e -end of five minutes, and they had already secn the impropriety, not t0 say the injustice,of such a rule. [Cries of order.] He thought censure upon the gentleman from Albany unjust. Did it follow simply because the rule was adopted by this Convention, that it was not a silly rule? Might not the Convention adopt a silly rule?-' [Loud cries of ' Order."] He hopel1 they should go back to the house and rescind this rule. He moved, with that view, that the committee rise and report. Mr. NICHOLAS (with some warmth) said he scarcely ever called for the previous question, but he was inclined to do it now. [Laughter, and cries of " Oh! you're in committee of the whole "] The motion to rise was then put and lost. Mr. MURPHY said he was reluctant to say anything on this occasion, but he should be wanting in duty to himself if he did not do so, as he voted for this rule, and if he permitted the gentleman from Albany to pass unnoticedMr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN: Is the gentle. man in order? Mr. MURPHY: I am replying to the gentle. man fiom Albany. The CHAIR- The gentleman from Albany was called to order. Mr. MURPHY: But I am replying to him as far as he was in order. [Laughter.] The CHAIR reiterated his statement. Mr. MURPHY was speaking of the censure which the gentleman from Albany had given those gentlemen who voted for this rule. The CHAIR could not know that a gentleman would be out of order until the disorderly words were uttered. Mr. MURPHY thought if gentlemen would hear what he had to say. they would not think him out of order. He concurred in the view the CHAIR had taken of this rule. [A voice" That's in order."] He could not vote to reverse the decision of the CHAIR. He trusted there was no gentleman on that floor that would. In the Convention they had the previous question, was that a " self.censure" on the Convention? The committee had no previous question, and hence the adoption of some such rule by the Convention was the proper way to put some restriction on debate. [Loud cries of " order" and " question!"] Mr. SIMMONS rose amidst loud cries of " question," and said he should vote against any decision by which the liberty of speech was taken away. He held that a tive minute limitation was the same thing. This rule was invalid-it was unconstitutional [Laughter]. The CHAIR had no right to enforce any such rule. [Renewed laughter]. The CHAIR ought to hold the rule to be a nullity. Mr. HAWLEY: I rise to a point of order. [Laughter.] Mr. SIMMONS (with great earnestness): Well, put it in writing. Mr. RICHMOND (with some vehemence): Yes, I insist that the gentleman shall put it in writing. [Renewed laughter]. Mr. KENNEDY desired to ask what construction the Chair would put on the rule if his decision should be reversed on this appeal? The CHAIR replied, that all the members of 327 the committee could not speak more than five that construction, he could not agree with the minutes. Chair that every gentleman could make a sinMr. KENNEDY:-That is that the whole de. gle speech of five minutes length. bale on every question will be restricted to five Mr. SALISBURY enquired if the gentleman minutes? was in order? [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN:-Yes. The CHAIR supposed he was in order. Mr. KENNEDY:-I thought so. [A voice- Mr. CHATFIELD did not intend to be out of " olh, but the constitution guarantees the liberty order. of speech."] Mr. SALISBURY said the gentleman was Mr. SIMMONS said the existence or non-ex. discussing the merits of the question, and that is istence of a rule on which the Chair had deci. out of order here. [Laughter and cries of "yes, de(l, was a question of fact. [A voice-" that's always."] a fact."] It was not denying the expediency of Mr. CHATFIELD replied. concluding with the rule; but he denied the power of the Con. the remark that the appeal had worked out vention to make such a rule, and he denied what he desired, and now he withdrew it. therefore that such a rule was in existence. The question was then put on rising and re[Laughter.] porting, which was lost-40 voting in the affirMr. JORDAN called to order. [Laughter.] mative and 43 in the negative. They could not reach this matter in this way. The CHAIRMAN then stated the question to Mr. WORDEN:-Reduce it to writing, recur on the amendment to the amendment (Mr. Mr. SIMMONS:-You may always impeach STow's). a record if it does not exist. [Laughter.] Now Mr. RICHMOND did not want to take up he again asked, can the Convention pass a law much time-[Several voices, 'You can't"]-and that would cut off all but a dozen members who he rose rather to say that it was impossible for speak pretty fast from participating in debate? any man to say all that it might be desirable to He thought it very strange that a Convention say on this most important of all the questions like this should be required to transact the im. that had been before this body, in the short time portant business of making a constitution with. allowed to each. He denounced the rule which out debate. He never was more surprized than made this impossible, as designed to shut out when he heard of this rule, except perhaps from public view the gross injustice and parwhen he heard that no reasons were to be given tiality of the system sought to be forced on the with reports. [Laughter-cries of " order."] people of this state-a system which his colWell, I've justgot through. [Renewed laughter.] league (Mr. TAGGART,) had shown gave to a Mr. LOOMIS said his construction was that minority of the whole people the election of a it limited all debate on each question to five majority of the legislature. And this was a minutes. He thought that was the strict literal subject on which tile majority here had voted constrution of the rule. [Laughter.] But the there should be no debate, alter having allowed next question was does it apply to the members the widest range on a subject in regard to which or to the speech? [Renewed laughter.] If to the people of the state had not expressed the the speech, a member could speak as often as slightest interest: he alluded to the subject of he could get the floor for five minutes each time. the qualifications of a Governor. This was a Did it mean that the member or the speech course, he insisted, which would have shaken should be five minutes long? [Roars of laugh. the strongest monarchy in Europe. [Whilst ter.] He believed the object was to limit each proceeding in this manner, the Chairman's hamspeech to five minutes, but they must take the mer announced that the gentleman's five minutes. rule according to its strict construction, were up.] Mr. SWACKHAMER spoke in support of The CHAIR stated the question to be on the the decision of the CHAIR. He hoped it would amendment of Mr. STOW to that ot Mr. JORDANr be sustained, and that thus the gentleman from the latter proposing to refer the matter of disAlbany he rebuked. tricting the state to the legislature without diviMr. WORDEN did not think it was so strin- ding counties-the former to prohibit only the gent a rule as gentlemen imagined. He thought division of Assembly districts. gentlemen by being a little technical could avoid Mr. RUGGLES urged that the committee it. The rule provides that no member shall should not pass upon this amendment without speak more than five minutes to the subject, but first going over this arrangement of districts, after speaking five minutes to the question, they and seeing whether some of these inequalities could talk as long as they pleased "on matters could not be adjusted. He adverted to the ineand thins in general." [Laughter.] qualities in the first and eighth districts, and Mr. BRUCE desired to say that he was glad suggested a mode in which one at least of these this appeal was taken. He believed it would might be remedied. In order to afford time to have a good effect. They were there, as he look over this arrangement in detail, he moved viewed the matter, adopting the Homcepathic that the committee rise and report progress. system. [Laughter.] They were endeavoring The committee rose, and had leave to sit ato cure long speeches by making short ones.- gain. [Renewed lauahter ] Mr. CHATFIELD had taken the appeal be. THE FIVE MINUTE RULE. cause from his reading of the rule he was satis. Mr. WARD now moved a reconsideration ot fied it was this, that no one subject should re. the five minute rule. ceive more than five minutes discussion, and, The rule forbidding this, without notice. therefore, the gentlemen who first got the floor Mr. KENNEDY offered a resolution rescind. would have all the debate to himself. Taking ing the rule in question. 328 Mr. R. CAMPBELL vindicated the motives Mr. JONES repeated, that he was not in the of those who had voted with him for this rule. habit of imputing wrong intentions to fellow He intended no censure on any member in par. members-much less to the gentleman from Alticular; but he felt that too much time had bany, whom he had found uniformly courteous been taken up in debate, and that the few were in debate, and elsewhere. He did say that he disposed to put the gag on the many by occupy. regretted to hear that gentleman apply the words ing the time themselves. He honestly believed silly and absurd to a resolution ot this bo ly.that there was a disposition to consume time- But it was far from his intention to impute to and little for business. It might have been a the gentleman a desire to reflect on the charac. mistake in him and others, who like him were ter of that body. inexperienced in parliamentary proceedings, to Mr. HARRIS never allowed himself, in a bo. suppose that the rule would expedite business- dy like this, to use language of a personal chabut that such was their object, he had no doubt; racter, and was never willing to understand and for one he repelled the imputations that had others as using language of a personal characbeen thrown out upon the motives that induced ter towards himself. He did not so understand the majority to adopt it the gentleman from New York. He did say in Mr. CLYDE also voted.for the rule in good committee, what he said when he came in the faith-and with no ill feeling towards any mem- other day to those around him, and found that ber of the Convention. He felt with the gen. such a rule had been adopted, that it was abtlemin from Steuben, that a great deal too much surd and silly. He did not retract it. He retime had been occupied in debate-and more peated it now. And hie appealed to the recolthan members engaged in it were aware of lection of the house to say if it had not proved themselves, under the interest they seemed to to be so. It had no sooner been adooted than put in the questions before us. His desire was a resolution was offered which took the whole to get along with business as fast as possible, sabject in debate from the committee of the and to give the people a little time to look at whole, and left the debate -to go on in Conventhe new constitution, that they might vote un- tion without restriction. Mr. H. went to argue derstanlingly on it. He was convinced howev. against all rules restrictive of debate. He did er, that the rule would not facilitate business, not regard the time we had spent in discussing and he was willing it should be rescinded. But the cardinal principles of government, (though he would not promise that he would not hereaf. it had led to no result except to show that the ter vote for another gag if he found it necessa- old constitution, so far as we had it under rery; and he should do it conscientiously and fear- view, could not be improved) as time lost. On lessly. -the contrary, he should regard it as time well Mr. WORDEN, in reply to remarks by Mr. spent, if it resulted in recalling public attention JONES in committee, said he did not see in the re- I to the great principles of the free government marks of the gentleman from Albany, (Mr.HAR. under which we lived, and should have led to a Ris) anything implying disrespect for this body: proper appreciation of their value. Nor did he and knowing that gentleman as well as Mr. W. believe that these gag rules ever had the effect did, knowing his uniform courtesy of manner and to curtail debate. No man ever yet labored lon; propriety in debate, he knew that no such dis- with a speech which he desired to make in a respect was intendel. He only understood the deliberative body. You might choke him down gent'eman to intend to express his judgment that by the previous question, but rely upon it he the rule was indiscreet and unwise. Anl per- would find an opportunity, pertinent or imper. haps the gentleman was right in saying that it tinent, in order or out of order, to relieve himwas unwise; but that was not saying more than self of it. All the time spent in making rules might be said even of deliberative bodies. Mr. to stop debate or to enforce them, was so much. W. was strongly inclined to vote for the rule time lost. The only proper restraint in such a himself, when it was offered; and if he had, he body was that restraint which every man felt should not have inferred from the remarks of called upon to put in lorce upon himself, in view the gentleman, any intended offence. And he of his responsibilities hoped that gentleman would understand that he Mr. MURPHY said he proposed this rule bewas too well appreciated here to make it neces. cause he was a friend of discussion, and because sary for him to vindicate himself from the im- he was a friend of the objects of this Conven. putation of intending disrespect of the majority tion. He knew that if we continued to make no who adoptej the resolution. greater progress than we had made, that no Mr BURR was understood to say that he was better plan could be devised to defeat the ob. satisfied the rule would not answer the purpose, jects for which they had convened. Knowing and was therefore willing to rescind it-believ- that we were pressed for time to get the new ing that when gentlemen were bent on delaying constitution before the people, he wanted to see the progress of busines in such a body, they our labors terminated as soon as possible. He would find the ways and means to do it, adopt wanted the new constitution to be discussed not what rules you would. only here but by the people; and for one he was Mr. JONES inferred from the remarks of the willing to make an equitable distribution ot gentleman from Ontario, that he (Mr. J.) had time, and g ve some portion of it to the people used language implying a charge that the gen. e,ell as or.selves. But he put it to gentle. tleman from Albany had some bad motive, or man here to say whether they believed it was wrong intention in what he said of this rule.- possible to get through with this constitution, as Mr. J. was not in the habit of doing that. we were going on, in time to give them that op. Mr. WORDEN disclaimed any intention to portunity? Gentlemen talked about gag-and convey such an idea. yet made no complaint of the previous question, 329 which was a more stringent rule than this. That did not apply in committee of the whole - And unless we could restrain debate there, how were the people to have time to re-discuss and review our labors? He was a friend to discussion among the people as well as here, and as such he should insist on some such rule as this, so long as the disposition existed to monopolize all the time here, and leave no chance for it elsewhere. Mr. WATERBURY explained his object in voting for this rule-which he confessed was to stop this eternal discussion, which he thought was calculated to wind up the convention with. out doing any thing. He was willing to believe now, with Brother HARRIS, that he was fool enough to try to stop what could not be stopped -anl to retrace our steps and try again, though he could not see where it was to end. Mr. KENNEDY hoped the excuse of the gentleman from Delaware would be taken as the excuse of all the rest, and that we should now come to a vote. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved an adjourn. ment. Lost-35 to 45. [Loud calls for the " question."] Mr. SALISBURY said he was one of those who had had exhibited so little wisdom as to vote for this rule which had been so severely commented on by the gentleman from Albany. He only rose to say that he had no pardon to ask for a vote given in perfect good faith, and which he believed had thus far had a salutary effect. It showed at all events to the people that there was a majority here who were willing to go forward and do the business we were sent here to do, and they were not to be driven to hear speeches here all the year round about matters and things in general, to the defeat of the objects of the Convention. He trusted the majority here would not be frightened from the pursuit of these objects; but when necessary would repeat this rule, until discussion was brought within some reasonable limit. Mr. CROOKER demanded the ayes and noes on the resolution. [Cries of "no," "no," "questlon," "question."] Mr. SIMMONS called for the ayes and noes. He wanted to see who was in favor of the liberty of speech ["No," "no," "question."] Mr. O'CONOR called for the ayes and noes. ["No," "no."] Mr. LOOMIS, the house being very thin, moved an adjournment. [Lost, and cries for the "question," "question."] The ayes and noes were then called, and stood, ayes 61, noes 15, as follows: AYES-Messrs. Angel, H Backus, Bascom, Bouck, Brown, Bruce, Burr, Cambreleng, Candee, Chatfield, Conely, Cook, Cornell, Crooker, Gebhard, Graham, Greene, Harris, Harrison, Hoffminn, Hunter, Kemble, Kennedy, Kirkland, Loomis, Mc\ilt, Marvin, Miller, Morris, Nellis, Nelson, O'Conor, Parish, Patterson, Penniman, President, Khoades, Richmond, Buggles, Shaver, shaw, Shepard, -i:nmons. W. H. Spencer, Stan. ton, Stephens, Stetson, -tow, Taggart, Tallmadge, Tilden, Tuthill, VanSchoonhoven, Ward, Warren, Waterbury, White, Willard, Wood, Worden, Yawger, Youngs-61. NOES-Messrs. Bergen, Clyde, Dubois, Flanders, A. tluntintton, Hyde, Jordan, Kingsley, Maxwell, Mur, phy, st. John, salisbury, Sears, Swackhamer, J. J. Taylor-16. So the rule was rescinded. The Convention then took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. The committee of the whole, Mr. PATTERSON in the chair, again took up the report of committee number one. The question recurred on Mr. JORDAN'S amendment, as follows:To strike out all after the word "c senator," in the third line, and insert as follows: ',The legislature shall, at its next session, divide the state into 332 se atorial districts, to be composed of con iguois terriiory, as nearly in a compact form as may be, without dividing counties." And first on Mr. STOW's amendment, to strike out "without dividing counties." The amendment was rejected. Mr. CAMBRELENG suggested that before striking out, as moved by Mr. JORDAN, it would be better to make the effort to amend the section and make it satisfactory. If not. we could then impose that duty on the legislature. He hoped, as suggestions had been made which would improve the section, that they would be repeated now. Mr. PERKINS had looked on this apportion. ment; and, with two or three corrections, he thought it as satisfactory an apportionment as could be made by any body of men that could be sent here. Indeed, he thought it could be more impartially made by a convention like this than by any other body. So far as he had been able to discover, there was very little of party here, certainly as little disposition to further party ends as could be expected to be found in any legislattve body. He thought we could arrange these districts without much loss of time, and without much debate, and much more satisfactorily than any legislative body. Mr. R. CAMPBELL, in the absence of the Chairman, [Dr. TAYLOR was confined to his, room by indisposition,] said that there were inequalities wh ch might be corrected, and he felt authorized from what he knew of the Chairman's views,to propose one or two alterations. At the same time it was obvious that though we should make the apportionment, now to a mathematical certainty, yet that in five years as great inequali. ties would present themselves as any presented now —and hence that it was not a matter of great importance that the present arrangement should be exact. Indeed the principle of apportioning deficiencies among the increasing counties was the only true rule; and that must of course lead to present inequalities. Mr. C. concluded some general remarks, by moving to take Richmond from Kings and annex it to Suffolk and Queens. Mr. HARRISON opposed this motion, as at war with the true principle of apportioning districts according to contiguity and continuity of territory, and the natural associations an d t relations of counties. Besides, he insisted that this change would leave a deficiency in the 2nd' dis trict nearly as large as now existed in the 1st. Mr. BERGEN insisted that if' the principle of. contiguity was to be carried out, Richmond would naturally go to New-York. Between the two there was a regular ferry. There was none between Kings and Richmond. The peo. ple of these counties hardly know each' other. Besides; there was quite as much connection 330 between Richmond and Suffolk and Queens, as between Richmond and Kings. Again, Kings was a rapidly increasing county-its increase during the last five years being 66 per cent-a greater ratio of increase than any other part of the state. Whereas the counties of Richmond, Queens, and Suffolk, were about stationary, taken together. Mr. NICHOLAS moved that the committee rise and report progress, with a view of refering this apportionment of the districts to a select committee of one from each senate district. Lost. Mr. CHATFIELD suggested that the committee pass over this section, and take up section 7. Mr. JORDAN withdrew his amendment. The motion to annex Richmond to Kings. Queens and Suffolk, prevailed. This vote was however reconsidered. Mr. HARRISON denied that Richmond was a decreasing county-its increase since the last census being proportionably a large one. He denied that the communication betweenRichmond and Kings was so unfrequent as was represented, saying that it was more frequent than with Queens or Suffolk. The people of Suffolk in fact were as little known to the people of Richmond as the people of Chautauque. Again, Richmond and Kings had for many years been *sociated in the same congressional district, and the association wasa natural one. But he should not object to this arrangement were it necessary to produce equality-but it would not do this, as he had already shown. There was a deficiency now of 16,000 in the 1st district. Put Richmond to it, and it would leave the 2d with a deficiency of 13,000. Mr. BERGEN insisted that Kings county had increased sufficiently since the last census to tbring it up to the ratio. Besides, if we were to follow the principle of the communications and business relations of counties, Richmond ought to go to New-York-if the nearest territory, it should be set off to New-Jersey. Mr. MURPHY regarded the question as settled,though reconsidered to enable the gentleman from Richmond further to present his views. The committee had in fact recommended this change and the convention had sanctioned it. He recapitulated the positions taken by Mr. BERGEN in regard to the contiguities and connections in that region of the state. He adverted in addition to the large ratio of increase in Kings-to its increase in the number of buildings erected last year in Brooklyn alone, amounting to between 900 and 1000-whilst in New-York it was between 1100 and 1200- Besides, the in. crease of Kings in the last five years indicated that at the end of five years more it would be entitled to two senators. While Richmond, Queens and Suffolk would not probably exceed the present ratio in ten years. Mr. NICHOLAS here renewed his motion to pass over thissection and proceed to the 7th.Agreed to. ASSEMBLY DISTRICTS. * Tfe 7t sectioa was then read for amendment, a& follows:-,. The revaliqar of Assembly shall be apportioned iwnouibthe Averal coiutits of the statej as nearly as may be, according to the number of their respective inhabitants, excluding aliens, paupers and persons of color not taxed, [and shall be chosen by disiri, ts. The legislature. at its next ainnu 1 meeting, shall divide the several countics of the state into as many districts as each county respectively is now by law entitled to members of Assembly, to be called Assembly districts, and shall number the same in each county entitled to more than one member, from No I, to the number such county is entitled to members inclusive, each of which districts shall choose one member of assembly. Each Assembly district shall contain as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants, and shall consist ol contiguous territory, and no town or w ird shall be divided in the formation of an Assembly district, except such towja or ward mny be entitled to two or more members.J An apportionment of membe s of Assembly shall be made by the legislatlire at i:s session after the return of every enumeration; and the Assembly districts in the several counties of the state shall tle so altered as to conform in numrnber to the said apportionment, and shall be constituted as herein hefre direct. ed; and the apportionment and the districts shall remain unaltered, until another enumeration shall have been taken Every county heretofore established, and separately organized, shall always be entitled to one member of the Assembly; and no new county sha;l hereafter be erected, unless its population shall entitle it to a member. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to strike out in the 4th line the word "paupers." Agreed to. He then moved to strike out from the word "taxed," in the 4th line, down to and including the word "members," in the 15th line, [included in brackets]. Mr. WORDEN suggested another proposition as a substitute, which he read. Mr. CHATFIELD objected to it, as covering more ground than he intended. He desired to raise the distinct question of single Assembly districts. The CHAIR remarked that it would be in or. der, first to amend or perfect the matter proposed to be struck out-and a refusal to strike out would adopt the clause as it stood. Mr. COOK moved, as an amendment to this amendment, to strike out, in the fifth ani sixth lines, the words, " the legislature, at its next annual meeting, shall divide the several counties of the state," and insert, "the board of supervisors in each of the counties in this state shall, on the first Tuesday in June next, divide their counties." Mr. HARRIS thanked the gentleman from Saratoga for his suggestion. It was new to Mr. H., but struck him more favorably than any he had heard. It brought the subject home to those most familiar with i', and would relieve the le. gislature of a great burthen. Mr. SHEPARD suggested that this division should be made as early after the adoption of the Constitution as possible. In New-York it would be a long and laborious process. Mr. CHATFIELD enquired if the gentleman had prepared other matters of detail to carry out his plan? Mr. COOK had another amendment prepared -but it would not be in order now. Mr. CHATFIELD said he should like to know how the gentleman proposed to establish the districts, furnish proof of them, and give them the force of law —for the proposition struck him as a peculiar one. He was opposed to it in toto, for several reasons. We had already an ap. portionmqnt for the counties, and there was no need of incurring this additional expense of special meetings of boards of supervisors all over 331 # the state. But the more serious objections were that you would get up 59 gerrymandering bodies, to cut up counties with reference rather to party objects than any thing else-that the election of supervisors would turn on this question of cutting up counties so as to procure certain party objects-and instead of diminishing cerruption and base political conduct of men in office, you would in fact offer a premium for it? Mr. SWACKHAMER did not suppose this,proposition would be seriously entertained-or he should oppose it strenuously. He would only remark now that if gentlemen supposed the people favored the idea of having as many little local legislatures as they were counties, they were entirely mistaken. In Kings county they were fairly rid len down with local legislation. Besides, there was nothing like equality of repre. sentation in the board of supervisors. One of the five towns in Kings (exclusive of Brooklyn) had a population of nearly double that of the other four-and yet had but one supervisor to their four. This was too important a matter to be entrusted to a little knot of men elected for other purposes. It was a matter they had nothing to do with, and should not have, if his vote would prevent it. Mr. STRONG had confidence in the board of supervisors and believed they were a great deal more competent to divide up these counties than the legislature. They too were more immedi. ately responsible to their constituents Every thing they did was done right under the eye of their constituents and he believed they would make a more equitable and fair division than any other body. We entrusted to them the important duty of equalizing towns, and who ever heard of their abusing that trust. He thought the amendment a good one, and should vote fbr it. Mr. SWACKHAMER'S objection to the board of supervisors was the rotten borough system of representation under which it was constituted. He preferred the legislature to any such body of men to make the division. And if it happened that the delegation from any county was divided on any such a question, we should then have an impartial body of men from all the rest of the state to settle the question. Mr. TAGGART, in order first to test the ques. tion of single assembly districts, suggested prefixing to the section, these worls:-" The state shall be divided into 123 districes, to be called assembly districts, each of which shall elect one member of assembly." Mr. CHATFIELD withdrew his proposition. Mr. CROOKER suggested that the object could be attained by adding the word single before districts, in the fourth line-and then by moving to strike out "and shall be chosen by single districts." He should vote against such a motion, but in order to test the question, he would move to strike out. This motion by consent, was substituted for the pending question. Mr. CHATFIELD took ground against single districts. He could not perceive what the advocates of this measure desired, or what great good was to be accomplished by it. If the ob. ject was to correct the action of political parties, he submitted that that was a matter beyoad our province, unless some great evil wab to be remedied by it. But would this do it? Divide counties into districts; and yet in all probability your nominations for the Assembly would be made by county conventions, as now. He could foresee great evils from this system. Our counties were all entireties-distinct political identities-having each an individuality of interest, so far as they could be represented here, or so 'ar as it was desirable to have them. Again, your boards of supervisors were a board of administrative officers for the whole county-not to guard the interests of one section of it, but to supervise the affairs of the whole county. Why break up this identity of interest in the representation on this floor? Must not the in. terests of counties suffer by having a divided delegation here —some of the members refusing to act with others upon a county question, and holding themselves responsible only to their particular districts? If he people had demanded this reform he had never heard it. It was a subject that was never brought to his attention until he came here. No expression in favor of it had emanated from any convention in his county. He did not believe, as a general thing, that the people had demanded it. He therefore turned the tables on its advocates, and asked them if the people had not asked for it, why impose it on them? We had better pause be fore we break up county lines-making mince. meat of your counties to accomplish political ends. He thouaht he could see the object of all this manoeuveriang-see where it tended-divine its origin and trace out its objects-and he was here to play second fiddle to no such project. Mr. A. W. YOUNG thought it was the pro. vince of this body to correct the action of politi. cal partisans; nay, he thought it the duty of this body to guard, as far as we could constitution. ally, against evils resulting from party spirit and action-for no man could deny that they atfected for good or for evil the people of the whole state. The rights of minorities were entitled to some attention; and he concurred fully in the magnanimous sentiment, in that respect, of the gentleman from New.York (Mr. MoRRIS,) Mr. Y. contended that there might be a great diversity of interest in a large county —a greater diversity often than between different counties. He conceded that the people had not been entirely unanimous in favor of single Assembly districts, yet the expression was sufficiently clear to prompt him to make an effort for it.He should not dare to return to his county with. out having made the effort. He had seen among the proceedings of a county convention in Cayuga, which nominated the members from that county, a letter addressed to them, which they answered affirmatively in favor of single districts. He could not say to what extent such expressions had gone-but the general expression in favor of single senate districts, carried with it a strong argument for single Assembly districts-for the one was as essential to equali. ty of representation as the other. Mr. PERKINS concurred that it was our duty tc guard against the results of party spirit in the formation of the constitution. We had already county lines cutting up the state into convenient localities for buiriases without respect to party. 332 If we put into the constitution any thing having a tendency to induce the legislature or the supervisors of a county to disregard these municipal divisions, we held out direct inducements to a re-formation of counties on party principles. And the great evil which he apprehended from these single assembly districts was that it would be the entering wedge for county divisions, and that instead of 56 counties you would have 100, and the people would have to incur the expense of new county buildings, and of all the machinery of a new county organization. It was inevitable that divisions for political purposes would lead to divisions for county purposes. And one of the greatest evils of past legislation had been the division of counties. He had confidence in the board of supervisors-but no man would deny that the intrigues originating in boards of supervisors in the appointments now given to them, had called for the taking away of this power and giving it to the people direct. Yet, here was a proposition equally calculated to introduce political intrigues and partialities into boards of supervisors as any powers they had ever been clothed with. Mr. TAGGART suggested that the gentleman was not discussing the question. Mr. PERKINS said this division must be made either by the legislature or the board of super. visors. He was opposed to the division of coun. ties by either-believing that the results would be equally mischievous. Mr. WATERBURY was willing to send this matter home to the supervisors of Delaware.He believed they would settle the matter amicably. He liked this plan of single districts - Many a man had come here from Delaware that would not have come, had he stood alone. Mr. W. was for having every tub stand on its own bottom-and here was an opportunity for those who talked so much about the dear people, to come right down to them. We had entrusted a great deal of power to boards of supervisors. and we had had no reason t) regret it It was as safe a body to leave the matter to as could well be selected, and he was for it decidedly The committee now rose and reported pro. gress, and the Convention Adjourned to 9 o'clock to morrow morning. SATURDAY, JULY 25. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. HITcHcocc. Mr. DORLON presented a petition from co. lored citizens of Oswego county on the subject of suffrage. Referred to the committee of the whole having that subject in charge. EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention, Mr. PATTERSON in the chair, resolved itself into committee of the whole on the report of committee No. One, and resumed the consideration of the seventh section. The question was taken on striking -out the words '' shall be chosen by single districts," in the 4th line. The motion was negatived; 21 in the affirmative and 50 in the negative. Mr. KENNEDY moved to insert after the word district, in the fourth line, the words "except in the city of New York." Lost. Mr. COOK, of Saratoga, moved to strike out from the 5th and 6th lines the words-" The legislature, at its next annual meeting, shall divide the several counties of the state," and insert, " The board of supervisors in each of the counties of the state shall, on the first Tuesday of June divide the counties into." Mr. CHATFIELD moved to strike out "the 1st Tuesday of June," and insert " at their next annual meeting." The amendment was discussed by Messrs. PERKINS, BASCOM, KENNEDY, RUSSELL, COOK, SHEPARD, CROOKER, HARD, TAG. GART, MARVIN, MANN, MILLER, SHAVER, BERGEN, FORSYTH, RHOADES and SWACKHAMER. On the one side, it was urged that the want of local knowledge would make it difficult to divide equitably the several counties-here; and on the other, that to entrust the power to the board of supervisors would be to give cause for " log rolling" combinations, which would be the source of trouble and dis. cord in the several cou ities. Mr. CHATFIELD modified his amendment so as to substitute January for June. Mr. COOK accepted the amendment. Mr. JONES moved to amend by striking out and inserting " until the enumeration and apportionment as provided by this section, such districts shall be and remain as follows." Mr. J. explained the purport of his amend. ment. He said that the boards of supervisors were elected as partisans, and therefore it was peculiarly proper that the districting should be done by the Convention, which was less governed by party impulses. Mr. RHOADES, Mr. MARVIN, and Mr. BERGEN continued the debate. The amendment was then negatived. Mr. BASCOM moved to amend so as to pro. vide that the board of supervisors shall meet on the day of January next, and proceed without adjournment, except from day to day, to district the several counties," &c. Mr. ANGEL contended that the boards of supervisors had not been elected with reference to this duty Mr. TALLMADGE said they had heard much said in the course of this debate of the honesty of individuals. All knew that this House was honest. No suspicion to the contrary could be entertained. And they were also satisfied of the honesty of the legislatures past and to come.As to the supervisors, it had been the pride of his life to maintain the purity of them. Living so near their constituents, they dared not be dishonest, because their constituents would hold them responsible. Well, now his purpose was to say that he had made no motion-that he did not intend to make any motion-respecting the districting of the state into senate and assembly 333 districts, or the apportioning of members to the inhabitants of each county. He had however some anxiety lest the public should misunder. stand the ditficulties here. If they did not a. rouse themselves in some reasonable time and come to some fair conclusion, he feared the pub. lic might think they did not desire to come to any conclusion. Now instead of running their heads against each other, if this body would agree to district the state otr the members of assembly to be elected to the next legislature, he would under'ake to say, if they would refer the district. ing of each county to the delegates here present fiom each county, it could be done by Monday morning. He would volunteer, to have Dutch. ess county districted by 9 o'clock on Monday morning. There was eo reason why they should continue running their heads against each other in the dark, some running out through the door and others escaping by the window. But if gentlemen were not willing to have it done by Monday morning free of expense, he would undertake to say, if they would send it down to New York, there they could get that county districted at an expense of $17,000, without any enquiry into the propriety of the items. If gentlemen could not get back from their parties of pleasure so as to do this work by Monday morning, they could complete it by Tuesday or Wednesday.But if they would not consent to this, he asked that it might go to the boards of supervisors of the counties, which consisted of honest men, chosen for their capacity, and before the party drum could have been beaten to call politicians to action to gerrymander the counties. He thought however, that it could be done here by Monday morning at 9 o'clock. He would undertake to be ready by that time on behalf of I)utchess or consent to stand in the pillory in case of failure. He thought they ought not to divide towns, but report them according to the census. They had fixed the number of senators at thirty-two, after a week's discussion, respecting which he would not attribute blame to any body; but he would remark, that some gentlemen had expressed much alarm lest they should have a thousand population more or a thousand less in some districts. Now the people would laugh at such fears. It would be a hiss and a bye word through the state. Now, let us understand if we intend to make the districts here. Four times 32 is 128, therefore four assembly districts would make a senatorial district. He desired the counties to get districted without dividing county lines if possible, but if that would be inconvenient, they could take a district from an adjoir ing county. He would not however, he repeated, divide a town. He made these remarks for the purpose of expressing his views, and he hoped it would be referred to the delegates to apportion the counties. The amendment offered by Mr. BAscoM was carried. The question then recurred on the amendment as amended, which was discussed by Messrs. STETSON, CHATFIELD, RICHMOND, and LOOMIS. Mr. TALLMADGE sent up a resolution to refer to the delegates from the counties the sub. ject of districting their counties Into Assembly districts, without any division of towns. He said he hoped he should not be misunderstood. He went for any thing that would bring us to the end of this subject. He went for this reference to the delegates, believing that it could be done by Monday or Tueslay morning, without any expense. If gentlemen preferred sending this to the boards of supervisors, he was willing to do it without waiting for the new boards to come in. Some gentlemen wanted the old boards and some the new; but he should be satisfied with either. A gent!eman from New-York had said the first error committed there was in agree ing to the district system. Now, permit him to say to his worthy and respected friend, that he was not prepared to dispute that at all. But they should not bring a man to the brink of a precipice, give him a push, and then blame him for falling. There were gentlemen who had come here instructed to go for single districtsthey were pledged, and dared not go any other way. We had here, speech after speech on the glorious right of election. Be it said to their honor, there was no party feeling here: they were all working for the " dear people." He had never gone for single districts in his county; he should never have dared so to outrage public opinion there. But he would ask, if they were to go on debating, and when they were on the point of voting, when their breath was all exhausted, to have the yeas and nays calledthereby get breath, debate again, until they were exhausted, and then adjourn? The CHAIRMAN informed the gentleman from Dutchess that his resolution was out of order, for it was not competent for the committee of the whole to refer any matter to a select committee. Mr. TALLMADGE gave notice that he should offer it in the Convention, and call for the ayes and nays upon it. Mr. HARRIS would not impugn the motives of gentlemen who undertook to lecture this body, and far be it from him to impugn the mo. tives of the gentleman from Dutchess; but he yesterday made some remarks which he hoped would have the effect of preventing these lectures for the future. He was satisfied that they were futile. Why this pending question might have been asked and disposed of while the gentleman from Dutchess was making his remarks, if he had seen fit to withhold them. He believed every gentleman was ready to vote on this proposition; he believed nothing could be said to enlighten the members of the committee. He hoped the question would now be taken, and that the subject would be settled in a sensible democratic manner, by referring it to the board of supervisors. The amendment was then adopted. Mr. NICOLL moved to strike out the words "or ward" in the 14th and 15th line, so as to admit of the division of wards. With this power, and without the division of assembly districts, perfect equality could be obtained in the city of New York. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to strike out the prohibition against dividing towns. Mr. KIRKLAND hoped not. Mr. SIMMONS hoped it would be stricken out. Why make a distinction between city and 334 country? If you divide wards, why not towns Otherwise you lose all the advantage of singl districts, if you desire equality of representa tion. The committee refused to:trike out. Mr. COOK, in order to perfect the section moved to strike out so much of it as di rects an apportionment of members of asserm bly to be made by the legislature after ever: enumeration, and insert a clause providing tha an apportionment shall be made of members o Assembly by the board of supervisors of eacl county, at their first annual meeting after the return of every enumeration, and requiring sucl apportionment to be filed in the office of thi county clerk and the Secretary of State, with at enumeration of the assembly districts, the num ber of inhabitants residing therein, &c. Mr. JONES suggested that this would tak( from the hands of the legislature future appor. tionments, and give it to the board oi supervi sors in the respective counties. This could on ly be done by the legislature, or some bod3 which could adjust the fractions. Mr. J. J. TAYLOR also suggested another difficulty as to the time when the boards of su. pervisors were to meet. Mr. PERKINS suggested that there should be special meetings of the boards of supervisors, on the earliest day after an apportionment by the legislature. Mr. WARD suggested that the object could be attained by providing in the 19th line, that the districts shall be so altered " by the respective boards of supervisors" as to conform them to future apportionments. As to the filing of these certificates, that could be provided for by the legislature. Mr. HARRIS said he had drawn up an amendment in conformity with the suggestion of the gentleman from Westchester. Mr. COOK withdrew his amendment and Mr. HARRIS proposed to insert in the 18th line, requiring the boards of supervisors to conform the districts to new apportionments-and it was adopted-51 in the affirmative. Mr. LOOMIS moved an amendment designed to make the provision applicable to counties entitled to more than one member. Agreed to. Mr. STRONG moved to strike out the word " heretofore," towards the close of the section, and insert " hereafter"-saying that as the section stood, Hamilton and Fulton would each have a member. They were both established, separate counties. Mr. HUTCHINSON proposed an amendment, which the CHAIR ruled out of order. Mr. KEMBLE remarked that Mr. STRONG'S amendment would take away from the counties not having 27,000 inhabitants their member. It would prevent the small counties from sending a member here at all. Mr. WOOD asked if the gentleman intended to deprive the small counties of a member? If so. he wanted the Convention to understand it. Mr. A. W. YOUNG thought the amendment unnecessary. Hamilton was not separately organized. Mr. STRnNG insisted that this would depend on the construction given to this language. Both these coftties were separately organized. They? were joined together in electing a member of e assembly, but in a 1 other respects they were as.much organized as any other county. Mr. KIRKLAND remarked that the effect of the amendment would be to send home several memlbers. It disfranchised Putnam, Franklin, - Rckland, Sullivan, Richmond and some other - small counties. The getlemnen representing y these counties, he suspected. would not be so t summarily disposed ol. f Mr. DANA gave a similar interpretation of h the effect of the amendment. e Mr. JORDAN was aware that Hamilton counh ty was not separately organized for the putrpose of representation; but he believed it had a county seat, a sheriff, a county court, &c. If so it was organized, and the constitution, as it now stood, would entitle Hamilton to a representae live. There could be no mistake aiout it. The.difficulty might be obviated by saying-every. county heretofore established and separately or-.ganized for the purpose of representation, shall 'be entitled to a member. As it read, Hamilton would have a member by the constitution. Mr. STRONG withdrew his motion. Mr. HUTCHINSON moved to amend by in. serting this clause -- ' "For the p.ipose of electing a member of Assembly, Hamilton c uuty shall be considered part of Fultoa county, until otherwise provi&ed by law." Mr. PERKINS remarked that the constitution of 1821 provided that no county should be organized unless it had population enough for a member. Hamilton had been oraanized since, had its board of supervsors, with directions to meet and levy taxes, judges of courts of common pleas, and every attribute of a county. — The organization of that county was a legisla. tive declaration that she had population enough to entitle her to a member, and the very fact of her organization entitled her to a member, and for the last five years she had had as much right to a member as the city and county of N. York. Mr. W. B. WRIGHT remarked that this motion was considered in committee-and that it was understood that this very clause was put in to meet the case of Hamilton in 1821. It this was so, the gentleman from St. Lawrence was entirely mistaken. But as the proposition from the gentleman from Monroe had been with. drawn it was unnecessary to say more. Mr. RUGGLES, in reference to Hamilton, re. marked that it was set apart in 1816, but was never formed into a county until 1838. Of course, as the Constitution now stood, Hamilton was never entitled to a member, and was not now. Mr. HARRIS was quite sure that the act con. stituting Hamilton a county, expressly provided that it was not to have a member until it had the requisite population. Mr. PERKINS said that was so-but the pro. vision was against the Constitution, beyond all doubt. Mr. KIRKLAED proposed to add at the end of the section: "t For the purposes of this article, the counties of Fulton and Hamilton shall be considered as one county ' Mr. LOOMIS:-Say, shall be one county.That county was got up as a mere matter of land speculation, and had been ever since so. C 335 Mr. PERKINS thought before we deprived Hamilton of her rights we should look a little into the matter. The constitution of '21 declar. ed that the 4th district should consist of the counties of Saratoga, Montgomery, Hamilton, Washington, Warren, &c. It also declared that "every county heretofore established, and sepa. rately organized shall always be entitled to a member of Assembly.' It she was a county separately organized, she was entitled to a member. But it was claimed then that she was not separately organized. She was part of Montgomery,though there was a line drawn on the map indicating whatmight be Hamilton. In 1838 the legislature passed a law organizing Hamilton with all the machinery of a county, except that they assumed to deprive her in violation of the constitution of a right to a member. And he insisted, that if we did any act depriving Hamilton of her rights, we divested her of rights secured by the constitution of '21 and the law separately organizing her. Mr. RUGGLES thought there could be no doubt about this. We had first a positive provision of the constitution that no new county should be organized unless it should have the requisite population to entitle it to a member. Now, it was admitted that Hamilton was not organized for the purposes of representation It had then as now, less than 2000 inhabitants. In 1830, it had only 1324; in '35, 1600; in '40. 1700; in '45, 1882. It had never set up a right to a member. It never had any such right under the old constitution. And if the legislature had undertaken to give it that right, it would have been manifestly unjust and against the constitution. This Convention could not be asked to give that county a member with less than 2,000 inhabitants. If the legislature had done it, it would have been unauthorized. Mr. LOOMIS moved this substitute for the last clause of the section, and it was agreed to: ( Every county heretofore represented in the Assem bly by one or more members, shall continue to be entitled to a member; but no county shall be hereafter created or entitled to a member, unless its population shall be equal to the votes of population "' Mr. BASCOM moved to insert, after the word " taxed," as follows, " So long only as persons of color shall not be permitted tt. eijoy the right of suffrage on the same terms as white persons." Mr. B. explained that as this question of suffirage was to be submitted separately, there was no other mode of making provision for the contingency of the admission of colored citizens to the right of suffrage. The amendment was lost. Mr. BERGEN moved to strike out "excluding aliens and persons of color not taxed." Lost. Mr. A. W. YOUNG moved to amend so as to except fiom the general rule of division, according to the number assigned to counties by the last apportionment. His amendment, he said. had reference to Wyoming, to which several towns had been annexed since the apportion. ment bill had passed-which fairly entitled Wyoming to a member over the county having the largest fraction. The bills annexing these towns was urged forward before the passage of the apportionment bill, to avoid this injustice; but the latter was passed first, and Wyoming was told to appeal to the Convention. That appeal he now made. Mr. TAGGART hoped we should adhere to the last apportionment or do entire justice by apportioning according to population throughout the whole state. Mr. YOUNG said he omitted to state that Wyoming had 30,000 and Genesee but 23,000 -and yet the latter had two representatives, Wyoming but one. Mr. RUSSELL said that these two counties together had a less population than several counties having but three members. If Genesee was willing to give one of its members to Wyoming he had no objection, but he objected to giving Wyoming another at the expense of other counties. Clinton with one member had nearly the population of Genesee with two. Mr. YOUNG replied that the member would come from Genesee, not from other counties. Mr. RICHMOND insisted that if we abandoned the last census we should have to go over the whole ground again, for Kings and Erie and Albany had gained immensely since. If we were going to equalize all round, he went into it; but he was not willing to take a man from Genesee and give him to Wyoming. Wyoming should have one more, but he would not rob Genesee to do it. Mr. YOUNG replied that Wyoming was justly entitled to this on the last apportionment. The amendment was lost. Mr. TAGGART offered a substitute, providing for 123 single assembly districts, without reference to county lines. Lost. The seventh section was then passed over. The ninth section was then read, as follows: — ~ 9. The members of the legislature shall receive for their services and compensation to be ascertained t y law, and paid out of the public treasury, which cornpen.ation shall not exceed the sum of three dollars a day, and after the year 1S47, shall not exceed the sum, of three dollars a day for the period of nine y daysfrom the commencement of the session. When convened in extra session by the Governor, they shall receive such sum as shall be fixed tor the ordinary session. They shill also receive the sum of one dollar for every ten miles they shall travel, in going to and returning from their pi ce of meeting, on the most usual route. The Speaker of the assembly shall, in virtue of his office, receive an additional compensation equal to one-third of the per diem as member. Mr. NICHOLAS moved to strike out the words "and after the year 1847, shall not exceed the sum of $3 a day for a period of ninety days from the commencement of the session,'r and to insert, "the legislature shall pass no law increasing the compensation of its members beyond the sum of $3 a day." Mr. N. said, as the section read now, the legislature could increase their pay after ninety days-which was no doubt the reverse of the intention of the committee reporting it. If it was desirable to limit the length of the sessions, it should be done by a direct provision; not by indirection, and in a mode that conveyed an imputation that members had prolonged sessions for the mere purpose of getting their $3 a day. Mr DANA did not think that under this sec. tion, after the year 1845, a member could get 336 more than $2W0 the session, let them sit as long as they pleased. Mr. CROOKER disliked this section-espe. cially as it seemed to undertake to do something indirectly which it did not dare do directly. He believed members of the legislature were as poorly paid as any persons in the state-and he was the last to stand up there for a reduction, with a view to a little popularity at home. He doubted whether many members ct the legislature made both ends meet at the end of a session. He had himself paid in postage alone, his entire per diem, as a member. Besides the section did not meet its object-as had been already stated, after 90 days the legislature could increase their pay to any amount-or they could adjourn and go home, after 90 days, and return and get $3 a day besides their mileage. He insisted that the pay of members was low enough. Mr. TOWNSEND agreed with the gentleman that the pay of members was low enough, and for one he was disposed to be liberal. He would give members an annual salary, and leave them to sit as long as they pleased. He found by the report of the Comptroller that the average pay and mileage of members had been for a series of years about $450. He thought $500 would cover all expenses, and be no more than a fair compensation. Mr. NICHOLAS disliked the principle of undertaking to restrict the length of sessions by withholding compensation. Mr. TAGGART insisted that under the section as it stood, members could increase their pay to any amount after 90 days. Mr. SWACKHAMER proposed to say $1,50 per day after 90 days. Mr. NICHOLAS thought that would be a direct reflection on the legislature. He varied his motion so as to strike out merely, as proposed. The committee rose and reported progress. Before the question was taken, the Convention Adj. to 9 o'clock on Monday morning. MONDAY JULY 27. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. KIP. THE PREVIOUS QUESTION. Mr. WARD from the committee on rules submitted the following, which was adopted:Resolved, That the previous question may be applied to the particular section of an article or other que-. tion under consideration, without including the whole article or main question. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention then went into committee of the whole, Mr. PATTERSON in the chair, and resumed the consideration of the ninth section, of the article reported by committee number one. The pending question was upon the amend. ment of Mr. NICHIOLAS to strike out the words " and after the year 1847, shall not exceed the sum of $3 a day for the period of 90 days from the commencement of the session." Mr. JORDAN was in favor of the amend. ment, for it would leave the constitution as it is. He did not know what the latter part of these words meant, unless to convey the idea that the legislature, as long as they had $3 a day, would corruptly or at least'improperly prolong the session for the sake of the pay; and that if they were restricted by the constitution to 90 days-a period long enough todo the business-and only allowed half pay afterwards, that they would feel indisposed to remain here after there had been time enough to do all the busi. ness, because they could not receive full pay. Now he would not by any vote of his, cast such a reproach on the representatives of the people. He believed that the people were honest-that is the majority of them; and he believed the same thing of their representatives. He believ. ed in the virtue of the majority. There had certainly been a great clamor at the length of sessions of the legislature, but if the people of this state had no greater cause of complaint of any thing done in the halls of legislation than the length of time spent there, very little cause of complaint would exist. There was a good deal of legislation and a good deal perhaps that was unnecessary, buV at no one session had there been so much as had been called for. There was much business actually called for that was not acted upon at the close of the session. That might be an evil, hut it was an evil for which the people were answerable, for they were the authors of it. The numerous applications made to members seemed to make it incumbent on them to consider a great variety of subjects, or the people would go away dissatisfied. There had been too much legislation: too much in regard to municipal corporations and other things, which he hoped this Cbnvention would prevent for the future, and thus shorten the session by abridging the duties. He was unwilling to put himself on record as so far distrusting his fellow citizens, as to say that he would not trust them with $3 a day for more than 90 days' legislation. He thought it would not be doing them justice. He did not think the people would elect men who were not so far trustworthy. He was un. willing to send out to the world in the constitution that they were afraid to trust the freemen of the state who shall represent us in the legislature, and that it was necessary to restrict them to $1,50 a day after 90 days had elapsed. He should vote for the amendment. Mr. NICOLL concurred with the gentleman; but he thought there were considerations that were worthy of attention. It was evident they could not restrict the session to ninety daysfor there might be circumstances which might make it necessary sometime to remain in session for six months. An] he submitted that it was not to be conceived that the legislature would prolong its session for the paltry purpose of re. ceiving $3 a day. But if it were, then might they not conclude that the legislature would ad. journ at the end of ninety days, simply because they did not get their pay, and thus the public interests might suffer. The average length of sessions for the last five years had not been 100 days, and it came then to a paltry sum of $253 or $300 for each member, from which deduct their board bills,and how small an amount would remain. Would they then, for such a paltry 337 consideration, restrict the representatives of the these restrictions upon the legislature as to the sovereign people, and thereby impute to them time during which they should hold sessions. He such meanness? should not intentionally give any vote that would Mr. TOWNSEND moved to strike out the belittle the state of New York. The only mode entire section and insert as follows:- in which the people could speak, was through 'The members of the legislature shall, after the the legislature. That was the very corner stone year 1847, reciive for their services an annual compen. of our liberties. Through it the people could sation of four hundred dollars The speaker ol the as- alone speak their wishes, their wants and opin. semrbly shall, after the year 1847, receive for his ser. ions. The idea that you would restrict the pe. vices an annual compensation of fivehundred dollars." od i dwh th t you would resit th e ei riod in which the people might thus make their Mr. SIMMONS moved to strike out from 1847 own laws, seemed to him to be anti.democratic. Io the end of the sentence, and insert, "the an. Mr. LOOMIS said if they would remedy a nual sessions shall not exceed the period of 90 disease, they should first look to the causes. It days each" appeared to him the language of this section, as Mr. JORDAN suggested that instead of re- reported by the committee, imputed wrong stricting the legislature to a 90 days' session, to causes for long sessions of the legislature. It fix the 2d Monday in February as the day of conveyed the imputation that they remained here meeting, and he would guarantee that at the end for the sake of their pay. Now he was unwil. of 90 days the members would be off. ling to concede or to believe that any such moMr. SIMMONS preferred biennial sessions; ive had usually influenced the legislature. But but if he could not get that, he would secure the it had been for the purpose of discharging cersubstance of the reform by a limit of the annual tain duties called for by individuals and by local sessions. In Congress there was one short ses. interests-to promote private advancement and sion ending on the 4th of March, and the other gain, and the advantage of localities. It was pro. extending through the summer. He believed posed, however, to remove these temptations to that as much real business was done at the short protract sessions, and he had no doubt that it as at the long session. IIe liked the principle would be done to a great extent. He was unwil. of the report of the committee in this particular. ling to concede, by any vote of his, through a con. Mr. SWACKHAMER advocated the report stitutional section, thatmembers ofthe legislature of the committee and replied to Messrs. JORDAN were influenced to remain here for the pay they and NICOLL. He had no more confidence in the received; yet such was the imputation convey. legislature than in any other 128 men in the ed by this section. His own preference would state. As it was, sessions were prolonged, and be to strike it out entirely. He' would even a great part of the work done consisted in Gov. strike out the compensation to be paid, leaving ernor making one year and President making it to the leislature to fix, but providing that no three years in advance. He would do anything legislature shall fix its own compensation. to stop this corrupt legislation. Mr. WORDEN said that however desirable it Mr. J. YOUNGS sent up an amendment pro. might be to limit the sessions of the legislature, viding that travel fees should be only ten cents this particular mode of effecting it was objeca mile, and the legislative sessions be limited to tionable. Let those who will, after reflecting ninety days, except in time of war, insurrection upon the business which has thus far been ac.or invasion. complished here, censure the legislature for de. Mr. W. TAYLOR regretted the necessity for lays. He believed that the legislature was genhis absence during the discussion of this report erally an industrious body, and the only surprise for the past few days. He was gratified, how- that should be felt, after examining the labor ever, to find that it received in its principal fea. they lid perfcm, was that they were able to actures, the assent of the Convention. Thisques. complish so much. The only practical way of tion now under consideration, was not one which limiting the term of the sessions, would be to he very greatly favored; but it was generally prohibit any member from rising on this floor felt by the committee that there was a necessi. for the first ninety days, and moving to fix the ty for adopting some measure by which the an- time of adjournment, for the purpose of making nual sessions of the legislature shall be limited speeches upon it, and effecting capital at home, to a certain term, and the only measure which which he had not capacity to acquire in the bu. came within their duty, for effecting this, seemed siness of legislation. This provision would be to be the clause adopted in this section. He did giving into the hands of a minority the power to not know butt the amendment of the gentleman defeat the passage of good laws. And there from Essex would be a better way of effecting might be contingencies arising within a few days the end proposed. He thought, however, that before the day of adjournment, which would reone hundred days might be a better term than quire that the legislature ghould remain in sesninety, and suggested that the amendment should sion. There was a great deal too much said be so changed. about long sessions, corrupt and mal-legislation. Mr. SIMMONS altered his amendment, by There could be no instances shown of such kind putting at the end of it the words " from the of legislation. We ought to begrateful tothose commencement of the session"; and at the sug- who had preceded us for the wise laws which estion of Mr. TAYLOR, he made the term 100 they have passed; and more wise legislation a days. was to be found in no other country. He hoped. Mr. RUGGLES hoped he would retain the the amendment of his friend and colleague (Mr. orignal term of 90 days. He should move to NICHOLAS) would be adopted. amend by fixing that term unless it was retain. Mr. SIMMONS could not agree with the gen. ed. tieman. He believed that it was a mere acci. Mr. MARVIN was in favor of striking out all dent that such a provision had been omitted iz 22 338 other State Constitutions. It was a general rule that we should "look to the end." The terms ant times of courts were now limited by law. He had occupied a seat in the legislature for three sessions, and knew how the business was piled up and accumulated towards the end ot the session and then pushed through. He was sorry to see the view taken of this subject by the gentleman from Herkimer (Mr. LOOMIS) knowing and feeling his influence here. Mr. WATERBURY commented on the accumulation of laws until even the wisest lawyers knew not what the law was. There was more law than justice, and as a conseqence the poor could not obtain justice nor a settlement of affairs which they were obliged to put in litigation. They had acts passed to amend acts, bills piled upon bills, until in seeking Jor the object and purpose they got lost in a deep swamp. He advocated short sessions and less legislation. Mr. STETSON had, uninvited, stated to his constituents in a written form, that he was in favor of a limitation of sessions, and no position that he could have taken was more acceptable to them. The opinions he had heard expressed were entirely in its favor. Standing then in that position it would be scarcely proper that he should allow this subject to pass without saying a word in its favor. He certainly was in favor of giving the legislature time to do up its business; but while the gentleman from Orleans had referred to their experience in justification of the preceding legislatures, if he had read the history of the legislative body aright, the early days of each session were more devoted to political discussions than to the business of the people. He would extend this observation beyond New.York and apply it likewise to the legislation of the nation. He asked if it was not so in Congress? Much, he knew. must be left to the legislature, yet a limitation of some sort would, he apprehended, from the necessity of the case be required. It had been said that if they limited the compensation to three dollars a day for ninety days, and a smaller amount af. terwards, it would be a reproach on the honesty of the body, and would belittle the great state of New-York. Now he should regret exceedingly to give his vote in any way that would produce such a result; but were they not too tender on this point? Was not all human legislation founded on the idea that mankind are prone to error. Why were legislative bodies assembled here at all? Was it not an imputation on the liberty of mankind? But the point had been mistaken. No one could suppose that the legislature would remain in session for the sake of three dollars a day. When heretofore they adopted a sliding scale from three dollars to twelve shillings, it was to point out to them the positive loss they would sustain by staying here beyond the period of ninety days. He was in favor of a limitation ot some sort. Mr. HARRIS agreed that the country gener. 0ally was afflicted with excessive legislation; and that it would be for the interest of this and oth. er states and of the United States, if we had less. We have in the United States more minds enga. gel in legislation, more time devoted to it, than in all the world besides. To some extent perUps that was unavoidable. The people here make their own laws, and it required more time to be devoted to legislation than any other country, where the will of an Emperor, a King, or a nobility constitutes law. He nevertheless thought we were carrying this to an extreme, and if they could fix some limit to it, they should be doing great good. But he did not like the shape of this amendment, for by it they should be incorporating something like a reproach on legislation in the constitution. It occurred to him they could accomplish the same end in a little different form. They might incorporate the proposition to pay a salary instead of a per di. em; and as $300 would be an equivalent to a session of 100 days, it would perhaps be enough, with an additional allowance for travelling fees. Some such provision might accomplish the object they all desired to attain. Mr. STETSON remarked that if a salary were fixed without reference to the time of service, they might adjourn in twenty days without transacting the public business. Mr. HARRIS did not suppose that any legislature would take the responsibility of doing so; or if they did, they would probably thereby terminate their participation in public business for life. Mr. KENNEDY was satisfied, that if they should fix any restriction here, the legislature would consider the limitation as the time pre. scribed for the duration of the sessions, and they would sitit all out. Mr. STRONG was in favor of the proposi. tion of the gentleman from Albany, and he trusted that a direct vote would be taken up. on it. Mr. ANGEL was unwilling that this amendment should be adopted and Jorm a part of the Constitution. It was a dangerous proposition. It might be necessary to protract the session over 100 days, and he thought it would be improper to fix such a limitation; for their own experience must have taught them that there was always an accumulation of important business at the close of the session, which might be defeated by a minority with such a limitation; He adverted to the lectures sometimes read on that floor to this Convention for procrastinating its business, and said to them while legislating for the Senate and Assembly might properly be applied the reproof, " Physician heal thyself." He was in favor of a reasonable salary, such as had been proposed by the gentleman from NewYork, (Mr. TOWNSEND.) Mr. SIMMONS continued the argument in favor of his proposition, on which the question was taken, and it was negatived. The amendment of Mr. NICHOLAS was also negatived, the vote being 33 in the affirmative, and 45 in the negative. Mr. TOWNSEND withdrew his amendment. Mr. HARRIS moved to strike out the first ten lines, and insert'. The members of the legislature, after the year 1S47 shall receive for their services. 0o( a year, to. gether with $1 for every 10 miles of travel in going to and returning from the place of meeting of the legisltture, exceplt iii the case of extra sessions, when they shall receive $3 a day, with an allowance for travel as afore-aid." Mr. RICHMOND opposed the amendment, It would be nothing but letting out all legislation 339 by the job. If he should go into this business Messrs. TALLMADGE, WORDEN and HAR. of jobbing, he would let it out to some compe. RIS, after which Mr. HARRIS withdrew his tent man, and he believed that it could thus be amendment. done for $2,500 a year! Here would be a sa- Mr. WORDEN said he had no objection to ving of money of course. Whether the work the suggestion of the gentleman from Dutchess, would be as well done was another question.- for he believed that every man who received He protested against any such principle, the public money should give some public eviMr. TALLMADGE said there was an error dence of his consciousness that he had earned in speaking of past legislatures, as doing but lit- it He would therefore amend his amendment tie during the first month of a session. The agreeably to his suggestion. members came together from different parts of Mr. DANFORTH thought public sentiment the state-they had to enquire amongst them- would be some restriction on the length of the selves, by personal intercourse, what was public legislative sessions, but he had never been dis. sentiment-and thus more business was done off 'posed to cast any censure upon them, for they the floor of the two houses than could be done were guided by the precedent of previous legisby long sessions. They thus made themselves latures. He then proceeded to notice some reacquainted with the grievances and evils that marks made by preceding speakers and to de. afflict the public, with a view to prompt action precate the insertion of any provision in the when they come together. At the hotel where constitution which would have the effect of casthe resided, there were 35 members of this Con- ing censure on the representatives of the peovention, and it was their pleasure to speak of pie things passing in this body and thus the opinions Mr. WORDEN briefly explained. of the non.speaking members were obtained, Mr. BASCOM said if evil had grown out of and their views were better known than if they high compensation paid to the legislature, there sat here without an opportunity for such inter- was an open, manly and direct way of reformcourse. With respect to the pending amend. ing the evil. If they had been paid so much ment, he was content with the existing constitu- money as to induce them to set here longer than tion. He had no objection to a salary of $300, the public interests demanded, the mode to meet but if they adopted such a provision they would that was to reduce their per diem compensation; not be able to keep a quorum in the legislative but he doubted the propriety of limiting the houses. A great many of them had not habits term to a certain number of days. ot industry. They would rather play at ten- Mr. SIMMONS opposed the amendment. pins, or sit at their hotels, or take rides. For Mr. SHEPARD said he should vote against himself, he should prefer to be at Saratoga; and the limitation ot either time or salary, but he his word for it, if they gave this salary, they should hereafter move an amendment to guard would not find a quorum present. But suppose against excessive legislation, by making the sesthe legislature treated itsell as it treated the sions biennial. boards of supervisors, by giving them $2 a day The amendment of Mr. WORDEN was then and requiring them to make affidavit of person- adopted by a majority of 48 to 31. al attendance on the days for which charge was Mr. CHATFIELD moved that in case of ex. made. If the gentleman from Albany would tra sessions, the pay should be$3 a day. Agreed modify his amendment in that manner, and to to. require reduction lor days of absence. Mr. T. Mr. DANA moved to make the pay of memwould be well satisfied. He was one of those bers $21 instead of $3 a day. Lost. who thought that we have a greatdeal too much Mr. KIRKLAND moved to strike out the fol. legislation; and he prayed God to spare us from lowing words: any revision of the laws, for what with contents, " The speaker of the assembly shall, in virtue of his chapters, indexes, references, &c., no human be- office, receive an additional compensation equal to one ing could find out what the laws are. third of his per diem as member." Mr. KIRKLAND intended to offer an amend- Mr. KIRKLAND never could discern why the ment to the effect that every day's absence pay of the speaker should be more than of a should be deducted, unless a sufficient excuse member. The distinction itself was sufficient could be rendered. He was in favor of the pro- compensation without double pay. Besides, the position for a salary, and thought the sum named labors of a speaker were less than those of mem. to be about right. bers, instead of being greater, as was supposed. Mr. WORDEN said the great evil was in the Mr. DANA hoped the provision would not be absence of members from the House. Last win- stricken out; the anxiety and long continuous ter the session was prolonged more than three attendence to which the speaker was subjected, weeks on account of the want of a sufficient fully entitled him to this additional compensanumber to constitute a two-thirds quorum. He tion. would provide in the constitution that when Mr. CHATFIELD was in favor of retaining there should be no work,there should be no pay. the provision as reported by the committee The He offcred the following amendment:- speaker incurred great expense for postage, " The members of the legislature shall receive for which members were not called upon to bear. their services a sum not exceeding three dollar; a d y He said while he was speaker, his postage from the commencement ot the session; but such pay amounted to $75, towards which he received an shall not exceed in the aggregate three hundred dot- allowance of 30 in the supply bill. lars for per diem ullowance; and no member shal receive any ompensation for the tim he e ay be absent Mr. CROOKER moved to insert in lien of from actual attendance upon the legislatule, unless these words, that the official postage of mem. such absence is occasioned by sickness.}" bers of the legislature should be paid out of Some conversation ensued thereon between the slate treasury. 340 Mr. SIMMONS opposed the amendment. He said it would be saddling the state with the franking privilege, and besides it was work for the legislature and not fit to be the subject of a constitutional provision. The amendment was lost. The motion of Mr. KIRKLAND to strike out was also lost. Mr. CHATFIELD moved to reduce the mile. age from ten to five cents per mile. Mr. NICHOLAS said the disproportion in the mileage of distant members of the legislature and those living in the vicinity of the capital was more than balanced by the advantage of going home occasionally, to have an eye to their own affairs, which privilege members a short distance from their residence avail themselves of; whereas the distant members, if they are called home once during the session, it must be at much greater expense, and they generally remain there only long enough to see that their affairs will need their attention before their return home at the end of the session. In a pecuniary point of view, therefore, the distant members are the greater losers. The amendment for this reason should not be adopted. The amendment was rejected. Mr. W. TAYLOR moved to amend so that the limitation prescribed by the proposition of Mr. WORDEN should not apply until the year 1848. Agreed to. The 10th section was then agreed to, as follows: ~ 10. No member of the legislature shall receive any civil appointment within this state, or to the Senate of the United States frbm ihe Governor, the governor and Senate, or from the legislature, during the term for which he shall have been elected. The 11th section was then read, as follows:11. No person beinga member of Congress, orholding any judicial or military office under the United States, shall hold a seat in the legislature. And if any person shall, after his election as a member of the legiliture, be elected to Congress, or appointed to any office, civ I or military, under the government of the United States, his acceptance thereof shall vacate his seat. Some conversation ensued on this section, between Messrs. CHATFIELD, W. W. TAY. LOR and STOW. Mr. SIMMONS moved to amend the tenth section by striking out the words "or to the Senate of the United States," and addressed the committee in favor of the amendment, contending that this restriction was in virtual violation of the constitution of the United States. Mr. S. urged that if a person was elected a U. S. senator without regard to this section, he would be a senator under the U. S. constitution-and that it was inexpedient and unwise to put into the constitution, an inhibition which could not be enforced He conceded, however, that it would be good policy, if you could enforce it. As a guide to the consciences of members, who would swear to support the constitution, it might be acquiesced in; but if a question were raised about its constitutionality, and a division should arise in the legislature on the question, a senator might be elected in direct opposition to it; there would be no way of preventing it, and it would only throw another bone of contention before the legislature. Mr. STETSON argued that this was not a question between the U, S. government and our constitution; but between members of the legis lature and our own state. In a word, was it competent for the sovereign power of the state to direct its own legislature as to the manner in which they should exercise their duty? Could the legislature under their oaths to support the constitution, in the face of this prohibition, elect one of their own number to the U. S. Senate?No man could do this without making himself an outlaw in the opinion of his constituents. Mr. WORDEN said it would be strange indeed if the people of this state were so bound up by the constitution of the U. S., that they could not provide against a dangerous evil.Such a construction of the U. S. constitution would be at war with the ordinary rule of interpretation, that instruments were to be construed in view of the end designed. If the pow. er of electing U. S. senators had been given to the judges of the supreme court, it would be a strange rule of construction which would permit the three to choose two of their own numberor to appoint themselves. It would be plainly any thing but the intent or spirit of the grant of power, that the appointing body should elect a portion of itself to the office. That would not be an appointment, but a self selection. Mr. STOW said he should be very glad to vote for such an inhibition, if he could do so consistently with the U. S. constitution. But that instrument having prescribed the qualifications of a U. S. senator, we could not superadd to those qualifications any other that would be recognized by the U. S. Senate, which was alone the judge of the qualifications of its own members. He quoted from Judge Story in sup. port of his position that if we had a right to require any new qualification, we had a right so to extend these qualifications as to make it impossible for the legislature to elect any body; and such a principle, if followed out in other states, might prevent the election of any U. S senators, and dissolve that body. Mr. TAGGART took similar ground. He stated the case of a member of the legislature duly elected to the U. S. Senate. and admitted to his seat there-and a subsequent legislature declaring that election void and electing another. He asked which of these would hold the seat? He had no hesitation in saying that it would be the first. The prohibition could not be enforced, if the legislature should be of opinion that it was inconsistent with the U. S. constitution. This was a matter with which we had nothing to do, any more than we had with the matter of delivering up fugitives to foreign governments. That provision had been struck out, and he trusted this would be. It purported to impose a duty on the legislature which we had no power to impose, and being entirely nugatory, should not be there. Mr. LOOMIS took the ground that the legislature, being the creature of the constitution, with the power only to act in subservience to it -the moment they departed from it, their acts ceased to be acts of the legislature. If a senator were elected by the legislature, not under its constitutional functions, the Senate of the U. S., looking into the matter, would declare that the election was not the act of the legislature, 341 Mr. SIMMONS: Suppose we should insert a the U. S., shall be included. That is a qualifi. restriction that they should not elect any? tion. Mr. LOOMIS replied that the case was not Mr. STETSON replied that the mistake was applicable. The prohibition would not prevent in supposing that the constitution of the U. S. sending a senator to Congress. In the case be. spoke on this subject, which it did not. The fore us, the object was to secure to this govern- doctrine of Judge Story, sustained by gentlemen ment the services of persons elected to office.- here, called on every one who felt the first emo. To secure this, we had a right to say that per- tion of state rights, to oppose this new enlargesons elected to office, and accepting them, ment of the doctrine hy implication on the part should not resign. He could not see the tliffi. of the general government. It would obliterate culty of reconciling this to the constitution of the states. What was the meaning of this exthe U. S. traordinary opposition to-a wise provision? Did Mr. MARVIN insisted, the constitution of the you wish to invite the legislature to send one of United States having provided how the Senate its own members to the U. S. Senate? Was it should be constituted,-having prescribed the probable that nullification would grow out of qualifications of' senators,-having conferred the such a provision? Was not three millions of power on the state legislatures to elect them- people enough, out of which to make a selec. that no state government could enact other quali. tion? fications or impose restrictions on the power of Mr. MARVIN enquired whence the states the legislature or appointing power. If gentle- derived the power to choose senators? Had the men were right, what was there to prevent the states a right to qualify that power? state authorities from providing other qualifica- Mr. LOOMIS:-They can define the time tions than those required by the United States and manner. constitution-such as that no man should be Mr. MARVIN:-Does the gentleman from elected who was under forty. And yet who Clinton deny that the power to elect senators is believed that such a provision would not be nu. derived from the U. S. constitution? gatory; quite as much as if we should provide Mr. WORDEN:-I deny it. that the legislature should never choose United Mr. MARVIN thought that a conceded point States senators? And this mode of bringing the -that the legilsture in choosing senators, acted United States government to an end, was no new under the authorityof the United States govern. idea. Run out the argument of gentlemen on ment, as much as any officer of that govern. the other side, and you would find it running ment; and that you could no more restrict the into nullification, or what was the same thing. free action of the one than the other, in execuIf the power of the legislature under the United ting their constitutional power. States constitution could be qualified, as some Mr. LOOMIS insisted that if we should pre. contended, it might be destroyed. He agreed scribe that the vote of every member elected that there was an impropriety in the legislature should be necessary to a choice of senator, the electing one of its own members, and it we had U. S. Senate would not receive a man elected by the power he shouldlike to prohibit it. But we a majority. We certainly had a right to say could not do it. If you could prohibit members that a man should not elect himself. of the legislature from being eligible, you could Mr. MARVIN replied that the case was not say that the chief justice should not be, be- analogous. The legislature derived ther power cause the people had a right to his services.- to elect senators solely from the United States And thus you might go on until you extended it constitution-that constitution prescribed the to the whole community.. qualifications of senators, and the only qualifiMr. STETSON urged that this was a ques. cations which the United States Senate could intion not ot qualification but of eligibility, where sist upon-and hence any superadded qualifica. the constitution of the U. S. was utterly silent. tions imposed by our constitution, would be nu. But were it a question of qualification, states- gatory. men were not agreed in opinion that you could The committee here rose, and the Convention not even require members of the H. of R. to be took a recess. of a certain age. He conceded the weight of Judge Story's opinion a matter of law; but on AFTERNOON SESSION. constitutional questions, he must be permitted Mr. RUGGLES thought the question pending to choose another leader. He must be permit- was one that deserved previous consideration. ted to place quite as much reliance on Jefferson, It should not be decided without that reflection in his correspondence, and Tucker on Black- which was necessary to decide it aright. The stone. He asserted that the states had the right questions of power, as between the general and to prescribe other qualifications. And if upon state governments should not be disposed of the matter of qualification these high authorities without a thorough understanding of the princitook that ground, how much higher the author- pies which controlled them. The argument ity on a question of eligibility where the U. S. that-the power to elect senators was derived from constitution had no limitation? If we gave the U. S. constitution, amounted to nothing unthem a senator within the prescribed qualifica- less it was also established that the legiislature, tions, we complied faithfully with the enactions in the choice of senators, acted as the agent of and limitations of the U. S. constitution. We the U. S. government, and not as the agent of added no qualifications. All we did was to pre. the state. If it acted as the agent of this state, vent those having the appointing power from the people of the state had a right to control that abusing it by appointing themselves, agency. This power to choose senators arose Mr. MARVIN:-You say that a certain class out of the compact between the two govern. of persons, not excluded by the constitution ofi meats. It was by no means a grant of power 342 from the general government to this. It was a' reserved power; properly speaking, secured to the state by the compact, but in no sense was the state government the agent of the U. S. gov. ernment ill choosing senators. The state legis lature was the constituent of the U. S. Senate. In doing that, it executed no mandate of the U. S. government. The power of electing senators belonged, by the U. S. constitution, to the state sovereignties-not to the legisluture in any other capacity than as representing the state sovereignty-thie legislature was, therefore, the agent of the state sovereignty-the creature of the state sovereignty. Its existence as such was recognised in the U. S. constitution. The power being recognized as in the state legislatures,as the constituen. cies of the U. S. senate, it was to be exercised in conformity with the U. S. constitution, subject to the rules prescribed at the will of the state sovereignty. He dissented entirely, from the position, that the state government could not prescribe other qualifications than those prescribed in the U. S. constitution. The states were in no way restrained in the exercise of that power except by the section of the U. S. constitution referred to. And if the state chose to say that it would not elect a senator under 40, they might do so. Certainly, if the state elected a senator over 40. the U. S. senate would not reject him. The legislature heing the creature of the state sovereignty, and acting as the agent of that sov. ereignty in the choice of senator, the latter had the right to control its action, provided it did not contravene the constitution of the U. States. It might be true that we could not enforce the rules we might prescribe upon the legislature, so far as to control the action of the U. S. senate, in its power of judging of the qualifications of its members. But that was not the principle on which we proposed to act. We proposed to act upon our own agent-the legislature-not on the U. S. government. In many cases though the agent exceeded or abused his power, his act might be valid; and he would admit for the sake of argument, that though we might forbit it, and the legislature should choose one of its own members-yet that the U. S. senate might receive him. Still, we had the right to prescribe the rule and might enforce it against the legislature, by penalties upon any man voting for senator against our rule. We could make it a misdemeanor and punishable as such. We could not command them to choose a senator under 30 years of age. But any other rule not in conflict with the U. S. constitution, we could prescribe and make imperative on the legislature: we could enforce it on them by penalties. He would not go into an argument to show the pre. priety of such a rule as this, for that must be obvious to all. Mr. MARVIN did not take the position that the legislature acted as the agent of the United States. True, the legislature acted on behalf of the state, and as its agent. But his argument was this-that the constitution of the United States had exhausted the power of prescribing qualifications-that no state could add to, or diminish those qualifications-and that if it could. all qualifications might be frittered away, and the United States government injured or impair. ed in its action. That was the whole extent of his argument. He cited the case of a member of the house of representatives being elected, when residing in another district, against a prohibition ol our state constitution-asking if the person thus elected, would not be a member? If gentlemen could satisfy him that we had the power to put this in the constitution and make it efficient, he should be glad to see it there.But the difficulty was that we could not enforce it. Mr. RUGGLES replied that we proposed to act here on our own agent-the constituency of the United States senator-not on the senator himself who might be elected. Mr. ANGEL took the ground that those who went for striking out were hound to show when and where the states had grante I away the power to prohibit the legislature from appointing one of their own number to the U. S. senate-inasmuch as all power not delegated by the slates, nor prohibited to them, was reserved. It seemed to him that gentlemen on the other side were insisting on a latitude of construction which was olening the door wider to aggressions on state rights, by the general government, than any ot the advocates of constructive power ever main. tained. He insisted that the only qualifications on which the general government would insist were that a sanator should be 30 years of age, a resident of the U. S- for 9 years, and an inhabitant of the state by which he should be electedand that there was nothing in the U.S. constitution which prohibited us from preventing our legislature from selecting one of their number for the U. S. senate. Mr. STOW did not doubt the policy or expediency of such an inhibition as this His only difficulty was, that under the Constitution of the United States, we had no right to put such an inhibition into our Constitution. The question of state rights, so far as it could be said to be involved here, depended on the strict construction of the powers of the general government, for which he contended, and a conformity to them in their letter and spirit. And the question here was, what was the Constitulion of the United States-and that having been ascertained, we, as citizens of this republic, were bound to conform to it. The government of the U. S. and of each state, were independent govern. ments, each in its own proper sphere of action; and the U. S. Constitution, containing as it did qualifications for its senators, the fact itself was an inhibition, without any express prohibition, upon the action of the states in that particular. Mr. S. here read, in reply to Mr. ANGEL, fiom Judge Story, on this point. He differed also from Mr. RUGGLES, in the position that the state did not derive its power to elect senators from the U. S. Constitution, but under a reserved right. How came we to have a Senate at all but from the U. S. Constitution? If the legislature had had this power under a reserved right, it must have exi'sted prior to the U, S. Constitution-which could not be pretended. Tnat argument therefore destroyed itself. He differed also from that gentleman in the position that the legislature, in electing senators, did so in pursuance of no mandate of the U. S. Constitution. The language of that Constitution was mandatory; and members of the legislature, taking an 343 oath to support the Constitution, were bound to ed the principles of state rights, and I would be obey the mandate. If it was not mandatory, the last person in this assembly to surrender then o:ee.third of the states, by relusing to elect them. But I hold that this opinion, is perfectly senators, might overthrow the Seaate, and with consistent with another doctrine which I ente'it the Congress. Mr. S. confessed to his utter tain, that the government of the United States inability to comprehend Mr. STETSON'S dis- possessescertain enumerated and limited powers, tinction between qualifications and eligibility, and that so far as those powers are delegated Mr. ST'ETSON:-The United States consti. in the constitution of the United States; that tution itself makes the distinction. the authority specifically granted by the states Mr. STOW continued:-Practically they were 'aid people is sovereign, and carries with it all convertible terms. Whatever disqualified a citi. the means necessary and proper to execute its zen made him ineligible. Now if we could say purpose. I think it will be conceded as a genthat no member of the legislature should be eli- eral principle that every government must ha:e gible, we might extend the prohibition to all the means of providing for its existence and who had ever been members, and to all who preservation, and the carrying into effect its ever held any office; and in this way, any elec- own powers. It cannot be that matters involv. tion of senator might be defeated. Mr. S. con. ing that existence should be confided to any tinued further in reply to Mr. STETSON, conten- other authority or government. This is a prindingthat Mr. Jefferson, he was confident, had ciple that is well exemplified in the constitution in effect ret acted the opinion quoted from his let. of the United States, as a reference to its provi. lers, and that Mr. Tucker in fact supported his sions will clearly establish and determine. The own view of the question. power regulating the election of senators is not Mr. WORDEN was not prepared to assent to exercised, as some gentlemen who have precethe doctrine that this state could not provide in ded me allege, by a mandate from the govern. its fundamental law that no person elected to ment of the United States, to the states in their discharge a trust under the state government, sovereign capacity; but under a solemn should be eligible to any other office under the compact into which this state has entered federal government. He regarded this however with the other states of this Union. Let as essential to the preservation of state rights us examine what the nature of that com. andauthority in the state government. This pact is. The constitution declares thatprohibition was not at all in conflict with the "The Senate of the United S ates shall be comr qualifications prescribed for senators in the posed of two senators from each state,chosen by United States constitution. It did not vary or the legislature thereof for six years," and again alter them in any respect. it still further declares, that "no person shall Mr. RUGGLES did not mean to speak of this be a senator who shall not have attained to the power as a reserved right, but as a power which age of thirty years, and been nine years a citi. stool on the same looting, in regard to its zen of the United States, and who shall not, strength and stability. It was a right secured when elected, be an inhabitant of that state for by compact between the two governments. He which he shall be chosen." These qualificadiffered with Mr. STOw in his position that this tions, thus solemnly prescribed, in my humble power was exercised under a mandate of the judgment, can neither be increased or diminish. United States constitution. He did not mean to ed by the action of this honorable body, without say that it was not the duty of the legislature a violation of the constitution cf the United to exercise it. But it was a right to be repre. States, which we are all bound to support and senteJ, and it was not necessary to enforce the defend. And u hat are the powers that by the execution of the power, any more than it was same instrument are conditionally reserved to to compel a voter to vote. As to the position the strtes? That "the times, places and manner that the States could prescribe no other qualifi- of holding elections for senators and representacations for senators than those prescribed by the tives shall be prescribed in each state by the constitution of the United States, it anounted to legislature thereof; but the Congress may at this when followed out-that the legislatures of any time by law make or alter such regulations, the several States could not exercise their own except as to the place of choosing senators."free privilege of choice. The legislature cer. From this provision of the constitution it must tainly could establish a general rule for its own be manifest in what case the states can exercise action. They might agree that they would not their limited authority in respect to the election elect a man under 40, or that they would not of senators, and it will be remarked that two of elect a member of their own body. If that were the powers granted to them are conditional, and so the people of this state, through the constitu- dependent upon the action and legislation of the tion, could control their discretion by a general Conlgress of the United States; and that as to the rule, provided that rule was not calculated to other, the determination of the place of choosing embarrass a choice, or to embarrass the general senators is the only power reserved by the constigovernment. That certainly was not the effect tution of the U. States to the legislature of this or intent of the clause proposed to be struck state. Inorder to elucidate and illustrate the posiout. tion I take upon this question, allow me tostate Mr. WHITE:-I rise very reluctantly, Mr. the construction which has been given to this Chairman, to express my sentiments upon the provision of the constitution by the House of important subject row under consideration: and Representatives of the TTnited States. Many the magnitude of the consequences which it in. years since when I was a resident of Maryland, volves, must plead my apology for trespassing the legislature ot that state passed an act divi upon the attention of the committee at this time. ding the state into election districts. It provided I may premise that I have uniformly maintain. amongst other things that the city and county ot 344 Baltimore should form one district, and be entitled to two members of the Congress of the United States-one of whom should reside in the city and one in the connty of Baltimore.Some time after this act become a law, there was a contest for the election ot representatives in that district. Of the candidates at that election, two of the gentlemen resided in the county, one was a resident of the city of Baltimore. The election was determined by the return olthe two candidates who resided in the coun'y.The unsuccessful candidate petitioned Congress against the return of one of the candidates who resided in the county, on the ground that he was not duly qualified to serve under the law of the State of Maryland. The petition was referred to the committee of elections in the House of Representatives, who reported unanimously that the member was entitled to his seat upon the ground that it was unconstitutional to add to the qualifications prescribed by the constitution of the United States. In conclusion, I beg leave to say that with all the consideration that I have been able to give this subject in the brief time I have had to examine it, I am of opinion that the limitation proposed in the section under consideration,as reported by the committee,namely, " that no member of the legislature of this state shall receive an appointment to the Senate of the United States," is unconstitutional, and should be stricken out. Mr. JONES disagreed with his colleague entirely, and concurred mainly in the views of the gentlemen from Dutchess and Ontario. He went at some length into the subject of the concurrent power of the national and state governmentsadverting to the doctrine laid down by Kent in his commentaries, and by Judge Story in a case in the fifth Wheaton-arguing that there were but three well defined cases in which a state parted with its sovereignty-(within which the case in hand did not come)-and that in all other cases the states exercised a concurrent power-the paramount law being binding in cases of collision. If this body should undertake to give the legislature power to elect a man under thirty years of age, this would come within the prohibition laid down by Judge Story. So it the legislature should'elect a man who had not been nine years a resident of the U. S., that would also be repugnant to the U. S. constitution. A11 that the U. S. constitution enjoined was, that we should not elect a man who had not at least the three requisites mentioned in the instrument. And yet it was perfectly competent for us to say that we would not elect a man who was not 40; or as a matter of state expedi. ency or policy, that we would not elect a man who was a member of the appointing power. These would be repugnant to the U. S. constitution in such a provision. Mr. O'CONOR conceded that it would be highly indiscreet in the legislature to elect one of their own body to the place of U. S. sena. tor; and if the idea was to insert here god advice to the legislature, in the exercise of their discretion, he had no objection to it. But if this was intended to be a binding and obligatory law upon the legislature, he must vote against it.He thought, however, that this advice should not be put into the constitution-nothing indeed should be inserted that had n.ot the binding force of law or which was incapable of being enforced. This clause,if inserted here, would be wholly without force. If the legislature saw fit to violate it, the question would only arise under the general or state government. If under the former, it would be determined by the U. S. Senate, under its power to judge of the election and qualifications of its own members. He asked those who sustained this clause whether they intended to assert that the U. S. Senate would preclude a person from a seat there who had been elected in due form by the legisla'ure, and had all the qualifications prescribed in the constitution of the U. S.? He had not heard any gentleman suggest even a doubt but the U. S. Senate would admit the member so elected. Mr. LOOMIS said he took that position. Mr. O'CONOR asserted nevertheless that the position was unsound. But the gentlemanl*from Herkimer was the only one who maintained the position. Certainly the gentleman from Dutch. ess (Mr. RUGGLES) had shown a disinclination to place himself upon it by assuming another. His colleague (Mr. JONES) had not presented a proper case in illustration. The case he should have presented was to suppose a person aged 35, elected when our constitution prescribed the age of 40. Would the U. S. Senate refuse a seat to the person thus elected? Mr. JONES: That would depend on the fact whether our constitution was in conflict with that of the United States in that respect. My position was that this clause is not in conflict with the U. S. constitution. Mr. O'CONOR continued. The case he sup. posed truly presented the question before us. For the supposition was that our superadded qualifications might stand together with those of the United States constitution, that therefore the United States Senate would not only execute the constitution of the United States, by exacting all the qualifications therein prescribed, but would require also the additional state qualifications. Mr. O'C. thought the senate would not do so. It had been well said by the highest authority, that when two legislatures, one of higher and the other of lower authority, assumed to legis. late on the same subject, the legislation of the inferior authority must necessarily be void. We learn the will of the law-giver, as much by seeing what he has left unsaid, as by reading that.which he has said. In this case the constitution of the United States has prescribed the full age of 30 years as necessary to secure that maturity which was deemed necessary in a sen. ator. The same law which declared that, declared by clear implication that no greater age was necessary to that maturity-so as to the nine year's residence. Such and so many quali. kfications were deemed necessary and no others. If others were deemed necessary,the law-giving power when acting upon the subject would have prescribed them. That the entire subject was intended to be regulated by the constitution of the United States, is evident from the number of its detailed provisions. The power of judging of the election and qualifia-. tions of members of Congress is given to the houses respectively, and with it the power is re served of controlling completely the time and 345 manner of choosing representatives-indeed every thing connected with those subjects except the place of choosing senators. Nothing could be plainer than that the U. S. government had taken to themselves this whole subject-and most wisely, and necessarily. As was well said by his colleague (Mr. WHITE), to every government must be accorded the power and the right of sustaining itself-to create its own departments and keep in life and vigor all its own functions; anti that too independently of the action of any other government. Else it would not be an independent government or capable of self-preservation. This self-sustaining power had been wisely secured to the U. S. All that was left to the states in respect to the appointment ot senators was the choice-if it may be called a choice-to have or not to have a legislature. If any state has a legislature, that legislature must have this power of electing senators, and can exercise it, without being subject to any other restraints than those prescribed in the constitution of the U. S. On this subject he had no doubt, and he believed that no one would have had a serious doubt, but for the well-known case occurring sone few years ago, where the passions of honorable men were influenced by an occurrence of this kind-an act, he admitted, highly indiscieet and improper. He apprehended that the memory of that act continued to excite a feeling honorable to them. But he had read that " hard cases make bad prece. dents." They influence the passions, and seduce the judgment. Strong cases of abuse lead men to act, not according to the dictates of law, but of an honorable indignation. Such influences, if yielded to, may induce us to adopt provisions which, when engrafted on a constitution, might remain there as a reproach on our wisdom and discretion. We ought not tlnact a law which could not be enforced somewhere. Mr. O'C. went on to allude to the mode of enforcing these superadded qualifications suggested by the gentleman from Dutchess-that is, by making it pe. nal-an offence against the state-for the members of Assembly and Senate to vote for one of themselves Mr. O'C. supposed the case of a fine being imposed, or imprisonment, or sentence of death, or imprisonment in a state prison for life; and criminal process being issued for the arrest of a person for daring to vote for and elect himself a senator, while holding a seat in the legislature. Mr. RUGGLES enquired if the gentleman attributed to him any such extravagance? Mr. O'CONOR was only carrying out the gentleman's position that we might make it penal for members of the legislature to vote for one of their own number. If we might make it penal, we might punish it as we saw fit. We could make it a felony, if we could make it a misdemeanor. But however slight the penalty might be made, was it wise to bring about this collision between the constitution of the state and of the U. S.? How strange it would be that a man should be eligible under the constitution of the U. S. to the senate, admissible to his seat by the judgment of the senate, and yet guilty of a misdemeanor under the constitution of his own state for being elected. Conceiving, therefore, that we should put nothing in the constitution that had not the force of law-that nothing was law that could not be enforced either by penalties or by denouncing voidness upon the acts done; and coiceiving that the whole power of enforcing the rules in relation to the election of U. S. senators, was in the U. S. senate-he hoped this matter would be left where it was now-under the sole and exclusive con. trol of the U. S. government and constitution. Mr. WATERBURY took the ground that if we covered the U. S. constitution, that was all the U. S. government could require of us, and that if we went further and made a minister of the gospel or a member of the legislature ineligible, and the people ratified it, who had a right to complain of it? Mr. SIMMONS followed in support of his amendment, arguing that even on the principle of state rights, the people of this state ought not to deprive itself of the services of its best citizens, and had indeed a claim on other states that they should do the same He cited several state constitutions in which there was no such inhibition, and from which men of the highest talent and value as legislators, had been taken right out of the legislature and senrt to the Senate, where they had distinguished themselves as public benefactors. He doubted whether gentlemen could put their fingers on a single state constitution, which contained such a restriction as this. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN followed, in favor of retaining the clause. Mr. TALLMADGE said the bold challenge of the gentleman from Essex, had induced him to look into the constitutions of some of the states, to see if this were really a novel inhibition-and in the little time afforded him, he had been able to find several instances. The constitution of Florida, for instance, contained a very stringent provision of this sort, excluding from an appointment not only members of the legislature, but other officers, the enumeration being quite extended. The constitutions of Texas and Mississippi also contained like restrictions. The new states were fast coming into it. The expediency of the provision, if constitutional, all seemed to concede; for no one doubted the propriety of declaring that those who had consented to serve as legislators, should be held to the discharge of iheir trusts, and should not be allowed to pass the time which belonged to the people in schemes to promote their own aggrandizement. The constitutional argument he regarded as clear and conclusive in support of the restriction. No one it would appear to him who would look into the constitution-examine the several provisions conferring the power of choosing senators upon the legislature, and prescribing certain qualifications to which they must adhere at all events -could doubt that in all these respects the legislature were free to impose other restrictions on themselves, not in conflict with these qualifications. And if they could do this, much more could the people through the constitution impose them. The constitution of the United States only required that we should send them a senator 30 years of age, 9 years a citizen of the United States, and an inhabitant of the state.All the rest was leef to our discretion-and we, 346 the people of New.York, had a right to enjoin l MON' motion to strike it out was negatived, on the legislature when they chose a senator, by a strong vote. that they should regard such and such qualifica- The committee then rose, and the Convention tions. adjourned to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. The question was here taken, and Mr. SIM-. "TTP.T.nAV JTTLY 28..& V- KWL,1,. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. KIP. Mr. SHAW presented a petition of Warren T. Worden, of Auburn, praying for the abolition of the courts of record of the state, and the erection of a new court to be composed of one set of judges of equal grade and authority, to be elected by the people. Referred to the judi ciary. MILITIA AND MILITARY AFFAIRS. Mr. WARD from the committee on military affairs, made the following report, which was committed to the committee of the whole and ordered to be printed:ARTICLE -. 1. Militia officers shall be chosen, or appoin'ed, as follows: captains, subalterns, and non-commissioned officers shall be chosen by the written votes of the members of' their respective companies. Field officers of regiments and separate battalions, ty the written votes of the commissioned officers of the respective regiments and separ te battalions. Brigadier generals and brigade inspectors, by the field officers of their respective brigades. Major generals, brigadier generals and commanding officers of regiments or separate battalions,sh ill appoint the staff officers to their respective divisions, brigades, regiments or separate battalions. ~ 2 The Governor shall nominate, and with the consent of t;e Senate, appoint all major generals, and the conmniss,.ry general. I'he adjutant general and other chiefs of stff deprtinents, and the aids-de camp of the commrnder-in chief shall be appointed by the Governor, and their com,nmisions shall expire with the time for whach the Governor shall have been elected. The cmnmnisary general shall hold his officefor two years. ~ 3. The legislature shall, by law, direct the time and manner of electing militia officers, and of certifying their elections to the Governor. 9 4 The commissioned officers of the militia shall be commissioned by the Governor; and no commissioned officer shall be removed from offic,1 unless by the Setnate on the recommendation of the Governor, stating the grounds on which such removal is recommended, or by the decision t.f a court martial, pursuant to law. The present officers of the militia shall hold heir commissions subject to removal, as before provided. ~ 5. In cas- the mode of election and appointment of miitia officers hereby directed, shall not be found conducive to the improvement of the militia, the legislature may abolish the same. and provide by law for their appointment and removal, if two-thirds of the members present in each house shall concur therein. A. WARD, Chairman. MONEY DEPOSITED IN COURT. Mr. WHITE offered the following resolution, which was adopted:Resolved, That the committee on the Judiciary be instructed to enquire into the expediency of providing in the Constitu:ion, that all moneys which now are, or may hereafter be paid into the courts of law or equi. ty during the pending of any existing legislation, shall be deposited in the treasury of the state, for safe keepiqg. ESTATES IN CHANCERY. Mr. MANN offered the following:Resolved; That the Chancellor of this state be re quested to direct the register, assistant register, and clerks, to furnish to this Convention the separate and distinct items, with the names of all the estates, heirs, owners, and parties claiming and interested, for whose benefit and for what purposes the funds aro held, whethe.r in trust orotherwise, with ttie dates of the receipt of all the lunds, comprising and making tte aggregate amount reported or furnished to this Convention by the Chancellor. as subject to the order and control of thp Court of Chancery, up to January, i846-which aggregate amounts were furnished by the Chancellor, in compliance with the resolution offered by Mr. Rhoades, and adopted by Convention, 26th of June last. Mr. NICOLL opposed the resolution. It was inquisitorial, and if answered, would expose the estates, moneys and affairs of infants and others, which could produce no good, and was not required by the Convention in the discharge of its duty. Mr. MANN urged that it was very necessary to know to whom the property held by the court of chancery belonged. Mr. RUGGLES did not oppose the resolution because it was inquisitorial, (for the matters in chancery were things on record and could be examined,) but because it would give the officer a laborious duty without any purpose, for he was not aware of any use that could be made of such a report here. He moved to lay the resolution on the table till to-morrow. Mr. MANN assented and it lies on the table. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The Convention gain went into committee of the whole, Mr. PATTERSON in the chair, on the article on the apportionment, &c., of the le. gislature. Mr. J. J. TAYLOR moved to add at the end of the 10th section-to meet some objections raised yesterday-the words "t And all such appointments and all votes given for any such member for any such office or appointment shall be void." The amendment was agreed to. The last section was then read, as follows:Substitute for sections 15 and 16, so far as relates to senators and members of Assemrbly, the following:~ lb. The first election of senators and members of Assembly, pursuant to the provisions of this constitution, shall be held on the Tuesday succeeding the first Monday ot November, one thousand eight hundred and forty-seven, and all subsequent elections shall be held on the Tuesday succeeding the first Monday of Novemher in each year, unless otherwise directed by the legislature. The senators and members of Assembly who may be in office on the first day of January one thousand eight hundred and forty-seven, shall hold their offices until the thirty first day ol December following, and no longer. The same was agreed to without amendment. Mr. HARRISON moved to substitute the word " following" for " succeeding," in the 3d and 5th line of the 15th section. Lost. Mr. HUNT moved to strike out "not taxed," after the words " persons of color," in the 8th line of the 6th section. Lost. 347 Mr. HUNT made a like motion to amend the seventh section. Lost. Mr. HARRIS'S substitute for the 7th section was then taken up in lieu of the original, as follows:The members of Assembly shall be apportioned among the several counties of this state, BY THE LEGISLATURE, as nearly as may be, according to the. number of their respective inhabitants, excluding aliens, and persons of color not taxed, and shall be chosen by single districts. The several boards of supervisors in such counties of this state, as are now entitled to more than one nember of Assembly, shall assemble on the first Tuesday of January next, and divide their respective counties into a number of Assembly districts equal to the number of members of Assembly to which such counties are now severally entitled, and shall cause to be filed in the offices of the Secretary of State and the clerk of their respective counties, a d scription of such Assembly districts, specifying the number of each cistrict and the pop.latiun thereof. Each Assembly district shall contain as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants, and shall consist of contiguous territory, but no town shall be divided in the formation of Assembly districts. The legislature, at its first session alter the return of every enumeration, shall re-apportion the members of Assembly among the several counties of this state, in m nuer aforesaid, and the board of supervisors in such counties as may be entitled, under such re-apportionment, to more than one member, shall assemble at such time, as the legislature making such re-apportionment shall prescribe, and divide such counties into Assembly districts in the manner herein directed, and the appor tionment and districts so to be made, shall remain unaltere until another enumeration shall be taken under the provisions of the preceding section. Every county heretofore represented in the Assembly by one or more members shall c ntinue to be entitled to a member, but no county shall hereafter be created or entitled to a member unless its population shall be equal to the ratio of population requisite for a member. Mr. LOOMIS moved to strike out the words "and the population thereof" from the 14th line. Mr. RUGGLES moved instead to amend by adding the words " according to the last preceding state enumeration," which was agreed to. Mr. STETSON moved to add to the 27th line, "but the legislature may at any time amend the division of a county made by the supervisors, if it shall be made to appear that the said county has been divided with any reference to political or partizan objects, and shall therefore redivide the same." Mr. BASCOM moved to strike out the word legislature, and insert " Supreme Court." Both the amendment and the amendment to the amendment were negatived. Mr. RHOADES moved to amend section seven, in line 17, so as to provide that members of Assembly may be chosen from any part of a county in which the district represented is situated, but requiring the representative to be a re. sident of the county. Mr. NICHOLAS said if the constitution sanctions the selection of candidates out of the distri.ts where they are to be voted for, it must defeat the principle objects of the single district system, which are to prevent political combinations in large counties, and to bring the candidate and his constituents nearer together, so that candidates may be generally known within their district. The amendment was lost. Mr. HUNT moved to amend so as to provide that the Convention now sitting in the city of New.York to revise and amend the charter in that city, might divide it into Assembly districts on or before the 1st of January next, subject to the provisions of the new constitution. Mr. SALISBURY said that looked too much like special legislation. Mr. HUNT and JONES explained that the Convention now in session in New-York had power to fix and define the boundaries of the wards, and could therefore discharge this duty with great propriety. The representation in the Common Council was not so equitable as to claim preference for that body, for while one alderman represented a constituency of 6000, another represented 30,000. The board of supervisors too was very different in its construction from other boards of supervisors in the state. After a few words from Messrs. MANN and KENNEDY, the amendment was negatived by a majority of one-34 to 35. Mr. MURPHY then moved to strike out lines 6, 7, and part of 8 down to and including the word '; January" and insert " There shall be elected in each election district at the next town meeting in towns, or charter elections in cities, of this state, one commissioner. The commissioners so elected in each county shall meet in county meeting on or before the 1st day of January next," &c. Mr. MURPHY said there were, in his mind, innumerable objections to the sending this mat-.ter to the supervisors to make the division.But supposing it to be the sense of the house that the decision should not be made here, or by the legislature, but by some local power, he had submitted this resolution to obviate existing objections while it carried out the views of the Convention. His objection to the board of supervisors was two fold. In the first place those boards had not been elected with reference to this subject. It was proposed to put upon them a duty for which they were not originally designed-in other words the people have had no opportunity of selecting their agents to carry out this object. But, in addition, in many counties of the state there are gross inequalities in the representation in the boards of supervisors. It was so where he lived, in the city of Brooklyn, which elected 6 supervisors, while the other 6 were elected by the other towns in the county, Brooklyn at the same time embracing nine-tenths of tVe population of the county. Now if they adopted his amendment they would give a fair representation to every portion of the county in the body to divide the county into election districts, and thus very serious evils will be avoided. Mr. RICHMOND had two objections to this system of the gentleman from Kings. Mr. WARD interposed and enquired if the gentleman was in order. This subject had been passed upon, and the Convention had referred it all to the board of supervisors. The CHAIR supposed it to be in order. Mr. RICHMOND continued:-I pointed out an objection to such a board. Mr. MURPHY modified his amendment to meet it. Mr. RICHMOND nevertheless contended that the plan proposed would be? more unequal than that which exists in the constitution of the 348 boards of supervisors. He had no desire to have this made a political matter at all. Mr. WATERBURY objected that this would be the means of creating greater inequalities in his own county. Mr. W. TAYLOR thought the amendment had some merit over the plan adopted by the committee; but he nevertheless thought this districting should either be done by the Convention or by the legislature. This was a great state question and it required calm and deliberation in its settlement. The Convention had confided that matter to the boards of supervisors, and on arriving at that conclusion, much was said of the confidence reposed in the people. It was, however, now said that the people should not be entrusted with this matter, lest they should get up some political excitement. Mr. T. pro. ceeded to show that the boards of supervisors had been elected in reference to local objects, and that ifit could have been anticipated that they would been trusted with this onerous business,other men might in some cases have been elected. He spoke of inequalities in the representation in the board of supervisors, as another reason why this matter should not be confided to them; and concluded by saying that he should vote for this amendment, but he still hoped that the Convention would itself undertake, or leave to the leg. lature, the apportionment of the state. Mr. WORDEN said the proposition of the gen. tleman could iot be carried out without the alteration of the law as it now stands. The resolution would be nugatory as he understood it. Mr. MURPHY said there were a great many provisions in this constitution to carry out which, there was no law. If, however, they adopted it, it would devolve upon the legislature to make the necessary provision to carry it out. Mr. W. TAYLOR suggested that it should be so modified as to have the election in each district just as inspectors of electors were chosen. Mi. VAN SCHOONHOVEN hoped the extensive machinery which this resolution would require, would not be brought into service. It had been said that the county delegations could easily divide the county, and of that he had no doubt; but no board that could be appointed could do it satisfactorily. Whatever board they might confide this subject to would have a political character, and if they saw fit they could gerrymander the counties. He nevertheless deprecated the distrust of the people which was expressed here, but he objected to setting the whole state to work to do this business. Ue hoped the provision would stand as at present. Mr. COOK called the attention of the Convention to the fact that the proposition of the gentleman from Kings would involve the election of 700 new officers. The debate was continued by Messrs. PEN. NIMAN, MURPHY, CROOKER and BRUCE. The question was then taken, and the amendment of Mr. MURPHY was negatived. Mr. SWACKHAMER offered an amendmrnt to give the members of the board of supervises a vote according to the population they represent. This he said was designed to obviate the objection raised on the ground of inequality in representation. The amendment was negatived Mr. BERGEN moved to strike out " the 1st Tuesday of January," and insert " the lstTuesday in August." Lost. Mr. A. W. YOUNG moved to amend so as to give Wyoming two assembly districts, and Genesee one. He went into an explanation of the circumstances under which Wyoming, with a greater population than Genesee, had now but one member whilst Genesee had two. Mr. CROOKER supported, and Mr. RICH. MOND opposed the amendment. Mr. CHAMBERLAIN stated briefly the circumstances under which this matter was left at the last session. It was understood then, in the Senate, that the apportionment was unequal, as it stood; but it was known that this body was soon to convene, and that it would correct the wrong. The apportionment bill therefore passed, before the bill setting off these towns to Wyoming from Allegany. He was not going to say on which side the right was. Wyoming had a greater population evidently than Genesee, or than it had before the apportionment was made. And whether it was right oi wrong to take a member from Genesee and give it to Wyoming, the Convention must decide. The gentleman from Wyoming had stated the case correctlythat there was some 3000 difference in favor of Wyoming, in population. And if the Conven. tion designed to arrange representation according to population, of course Wyoming would be entitled to the member. Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to amend, so as to leave the matter to the boards of supervisors of the two counties interested. Lost. Mr. WARD urged briefly, that if we had power to do justice between these two counties, every consideration that ought to govern seemed to require that Wyoming should have the mem ber. Mr. TAGGART conceded the inequalities of the present apportionment, not in regard to Genesee and Wyoming only, but in regard to other counties-and if the entire apportionment could be remoddled, he went for it. But he insisted that it would only be adding to its injustice and inequality to undertake to alter it in one instance, and leave other equally glaring inequalities to stand. Mr. A. W. YOUNG differed in some respects with Mr. PERKINS in regard to the circ 'mstances which threw the apportionment bill ahead of the Wyoming bill-and urged further his amend. ment. The question was here taken, and there were 21 for and 24 against the amendment. No quorum. Mr. STETSON proposed to amend so as to give Clinton two and Genesee one member. Mr. PERKINS suggested that the two coun. ties should alternate in choosing two, as they did in Indiana and Ohio-that is that there should be what is called a '-float" between the two. He moved to amend in that way. The amendment was ruled out of order-and Mr. STETSON withdrew his motion. Mr. CAMBRELENG took the ground that the legislature had no right to depart from the census in making the appor:ionment. By that census, Genesee had a larger population than Wyoming, and even had the bill annexing cer 349 tain towns in Allegany to Wyoming, passed be. yet all this time she was to be tied down to one fore the apportionment bill. He contended that senator. Yet the gentleman from Richmond in. the legislature could not without a violation of sisted on being admitted into that family. Let the constitution, have departed from the cnnsus him go where there was room-sit down to a as the basis of apportionment. table where there was a seat. As to the argu. Mr. A. W. YOUNG asked if half of Allegany ment of contiguity, it applied no more to Kings had been annexed to Wyoming, whether this than Queens. Kings did not touch Richmond convention would leave Allegany with he- two any more than Queens. Both were bounded by members and Wyoming with one? He insisted the main channel on that side. And the only that it was not only in the power, but itwas the communication between Richmond and Kings or duty of this body, to do justice in the case. Queens was through the city of New-York.The question was again put on Mr. YOUNG's He hoped justice would be done to the growing amendment, and it was lost, 34 to 36. county of Kings, now and prospectively. The committee then took up the 5th section, The committee rose and the Convention took (that which apportions the senators.) a recess. The question was upon adding the county of Richmond to Suffolk and Queens. AFTERNOON SESSION. Mr. HARRISON opposed the proposition as I doing great injustice to the county of Richmond. The committee of the whole again tookup the The principle of contiguity of territory was vio- repot of committee number one. lated. Nor would the change effect the object The amendment heretofore proposed, adding sought. It would only transfer t the deit w he county of Richmond to the first district, was existing in the two districts. Suffolk and Queens lost. contained as much population as Rensselaer Mr. SHEPARD moved to take Richmond from county, which it was proposed to make a dis the second district, and add it to the seventh trict. If any change was made he preferred to(composed of Westchester, Putnam and Rockannex Richmond to some of the wards of New- land.) York. This was lost, but reconsidered by consent, Mr. KENNEDY, on behalf of NewYork,to allow Mr. RUGGLES to present a calcula. Mr. KENNEDY, on behalf of New-York, tion which he had made by which the appor. declined the honor of an association with Rich-on whch hehad mad ch the mond. If the principle of contiguity was to pre.tionment would e made more equal He would vail, Kings and Richmond should go together.-put Richmond with Westchester and Rockland; Richmond and Queens were about as contigu- Putnam with Dutchess; Ulster with Delaware; ous as Richmond and Bermuda. Columbia with Greene; Delaware with Chenan. Mr. SHEPARD suggested a connection with g and Broome; Cortland Tioga and Chemung Westchester. together; Tompkins with Seneca. Mr. HARRISON perceived with some morti. Mr. CHATFIELD said by this arrangement, fication and regret that Richmond was discard. the deficiency seemed to fall upon the southern ed on all sides; and he did not know but what counties, while the excess was with the west Richmond might be driven to declare her inde- which was constantly increasing in population. pendence. [Laughter.] Richmond might as Mr. MURPHY moved to amend by stri.well be connected with Albany as with Suffolk. king out Richmond as a part of the second dis. He should prefer that, for the contiguity would trict. be greater in point of fact. He hoped however Mr. HARRISON opposed this motion, and the report of the committee would be allowed Mr. BERGEN advocated it. to stand, and that Richmond and Kings would Mr. RUGGLES supposed that this question remain associated, as heretofore. required such an examination as could not be Mr. CAMBRELING did not regard Richmond given it here in committee of the whole. He as in so very forlorn a condition. She had not therefore moved to rise and report, for the been discarded by Suffolk and Queens certainly. purpose of offering subsequently a motion to But Mr. C. thought Richmond a natural depend- send this matter to a select committee of three, ency of New-York. But there was an objec. to determine by an examination of the whole tion to attaching Richmond to Long Island which subject in connection, whether a better or more he was surprised had not been thought of by equal division could be made. the gentlemen from Richmond. Long Island The committee rose. previously contemplated declaring her independ- On the question of granting leave to sit again, ence of the rest of the state. Had this been Mr. HARRIS addressed the Convention in done, where would Richmond be? opposition. He had examined the apportion. Mr. MURPHY supposed this question settled ment made by the committee, and with a sin. when the other day Richmond was put to cere desire to come to a fair opinion in regard to Queens and Suffolk. This in fact was the ar. it, and was obliged to think that it was as equirangement of the committee-for the chairman table and equal a division as could be made.(Mr. TAYLOR) had himself proposed that con- He hoped, therefore, that the report would be nection, and the appeal to let the report stand received as it stood. He moved that the comas the committee would have it, would leave mittee of the whole be discharged from the fur. Richmond with Queens and Suffolk. He re. ther consideration of the report of committee peated the remark he made the other day when number One. this question was up, that Kings had increased Mr. R. CAMPBELL was opposed to this.66 per cent. within the last five years. The As a member of that committee, he hoped the same rate of increase would give her 128,0(0 report would not be adopted until all attempts five years hence, and 222,000 in ten years-and to make it better had failed. 350 Mr. CROOKER said the report might be dis. ferred not to serve again upon such a committee, cussed n the Convention as well as in commit. Mr. RHOADES combatted an assertion of tee, and here we had the power to apply the Mr. CHATFIELD that this subject of the apprevious question when a proposition had been portionment of senators had not been discussed. talked about long enough. Mr. R. had heard motions to increase the numMr. WARD should vote for the motion. The ber of senators to 36, 39, 40, 42, 46 and 48, and subject had been sufficiently discussed. the mover of each had presented his schedule Mr. SHEPARD believed that if the report, as and debated it. And all of these schemes the it stood, should be adopted, it would not give chairman of the committee (Mr. TAYLOR) had satisfaction to the people of the state. Espe- declared more unequal than the apportionment cially would it not give satisfaction in the city of the committee. of New York. And dissatisfaction on this point Mr. CHATFIELD said his remark applied might lead to the defeat of the constitution. He to debate in committee on the details. hoped that it would not be put through the Mr. RHOADES insisted that the whole mer. house by the spur of the previous question, but its of the section had been fully canvassed-the that it might be fully discussed in committee. number of senators and the apportionment in Mr. RUGGLES thought he had been more the main had been settled as he supposed. As fortunate with regard to his own constituents to the prediction that the people would not sancthan the gentleman fromn Albany with rela-tion this apportionment, Mr. R. said whatever tion to his. He believed that changes in the re-might be the sentiment in New York, in the port might be made which would render greater country the people were almost unanimous in justice to many portions of the state. He, there.- the support of single senate and assembly dis fore, moved again to give this to a select com- tricts, and they would be satisfied with this ap mittee, who might settle this question in an portionment. He had no doubt but what the hour. vote in his region of the state would be nearly Mr. WARD said the gentleman from Dutch unanimous. As to the appeals to party which ess might still e tn had been made, Mr. R. thoughtn in the Convey would be tn sh d mtion toshould the seed sown by the way side. The ommifowls tee prevail. For one, he should vote for that f the air might pick them up, but our constilumotion. If the report should again get into ets would pay no sort of attntion to them. committee of the whole, he feared that days Mr. STETSON denied that this plan could would be consumed to no purpose in the discus.not be improved-that is if single districts were sion of this apportionment. He believed that abandoned-and even as it was there were there was to be no change in the number of sen.ross equalities that might be corrected He ators already decided upon-for one, he should had seen a plan for 48 senators and double disnot change his vote. He hoped the committee tricts thatwas much more equal-compared with would be discharged. which the apportionment of the committee preMr. CHATFIELD denied that this appor. sented deficiencies and excesses three times tionment had been discussed. Except upon the reater. question of taking Richmond out of its position, Mr. HARRIS said it was obvious that if any there had been no discussion at all; nor did he vote fixing he number of senators was to be regard the matter of 32 senators as settled. He reconsidered, it would be labor lost to go on farbelieved the vote on that question would be re. ther with this report until that question was considered. Nor did he believe that there disposed of. To allowthese motionstobemade, would be entire satisfaction felt by the peoplehe would withdraw his motion and move to lay unless this question should receive full conside- thereport on the table. Agreed to. ration, with a view to do ample justice to all.- Mr. CHATFIELD moved to go into commit. He did not wish to leave in the constitution any tee of the whole on the report of committee No. latent causes which should induce the people toEleven. Agreed to. reject it when submitted to them. Anti they RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF CITIZENS. certainly would do so if it did injustice to any The committee of the whole, Mr. MARVIN part of the state. Otsego county, he knew, in the chair, then took up the report in relation would not endorse an injustice. If might was to the rights and privileges of citizens of the to prevail over right, and this was put through, state. against the will and against the stomach of this The 1st section was read as follows:House, he feared that dissatisfaction would de. i. Men are by nature free and independent, and in feat the adoption of the instrument which we their social relations entitled to equal rights. should submit to the people. He would give Mr. BASCOM moved to irfmert the words the subject a full and deliberate discussion, and "and political," after the word 'social." then allow it to lie upon the table for a while, Mr. KENNEDY hoped this would not be as was done in the Convention of 1821, that, af- adopted. He understood it as opening the ques. ter deliberation, it might be recurred to again, tio.a of color. and disposed of under the cool consideration of Mr. BASCOM did not wish to pass upon a this body. section that meant nothing. In a constitution Mr. W. TAYLOR thought it not best to dis- he was not willing to say merely that man was charge the committee of the whole. He would entitled to social rights. Here was the place for grant leave to sit again. Then if it was thought us to say whether man was entitled to his pobest to send thit section to a committee, the litical rights. If gentlemen were prepared to matter could be taken up again in committee of say this was not so, here was the proper time the whole. He only desired to say that he pre- to say so. As to color, it was not in his mind. 351 He had no intention to disturb the sensibilities had enough business to transact, without dis. of the gentleman from New-York. Mr. B. con. cussing abstractions. sidered that his own rights were equal with Mr. W. TAYLOR believed a majority of the those of the gentleman, and he wanted them se- Conveption would agree with the gentleman last cured in this constitution. up, that we had too much important business on Mr. KENNEDY considered that the Conven. land to waste time in the discussion of mere ab. tion, by its vote excluding aliens from the basis stractions This mode of ploughing one hour, of representation, had decided that all men were hoeing another hour, then building a piece of not entitled to equal political rights. fence, and then diving into the meadow, as he Mr. FORSYTH moved to amend the amend. had seen some farmers do, would never accomment by striking out the word " social," and in. plish any thing. He wanted to dispose of the sert" political.' It was not true that every man question of the apportionment first, before takwas entitled to equ.l social rights. ing up an entirely new subject. To test the The CHAIR ruled this motion not now in sense of the House, he would move to rise and order. report progress. Mr. NICOLL was opposed to the insertion of Agreed to., 55 to 34. either of these first two sections in the Consti- The Convention then adjourned to nine o'clock tution. They were mere abstractions, and we to-morrow morning. WEDNESDAY, JULY 29. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. KIP. this was not in order. [Cries of "oh, certain. EXPLANATION. ly," "go on," 4"go on."] PLANATON. Mr. KENNEDY said he would not detain the Mr. KENNEDY rose and said he did not Convention longer than to read the extract al. know that it would be entirely in order at this luded to. time, but he did not know at what time it would c Sir-Your name having been presented for nominat be more in order, to correct a single line which tion as a delegate to the State Convention, we are di. had appeared in one of the newspapers of this rected by the Democratic Republican County Convencityrelative to himself. He had intended to pass tion, to propound to you the following questions; and i a ob n we requaest that your aaswer nay be sent to Fernsando it by without any observation, but he had been Wood, or other member of the Committee) on or before advised by friends that he ought to notice it, Tuesday next, at 12 o'clock.' and to correct the error here. The line to With these remarks, he was done. He had which he alluded appeared in the Albany Atlas merely wished to show that he had not asserted of Monday afternoon. It would be remembered that no answers were requested. He regretted that during the debate on the single district that the gentleman, whose remarks had called question, one of his colleagues made some re- for these explanations, was not in his seat. In marks in reference to instructions, which he the absence of that gentleman, it might be insaid the New York delegation had received at decorous to pursue the topic. the time they were nominated for election. It Mr. TILDEN presented a communication, would also be remembered that several dele- consisting of a preamble and resolutions from gates from New York dissented from the re- the Convention now sitting in the city of Newmarks there made-himself among the number. York, respecting the chartered rights of that The Atlas reported a portion of that debate in city. Referred to the committee on municipal the following terms:- corporations. After Mr. MORRIS had stated that he had re- Mr. MARVIN presented a memorial from a ceived instructions, and that had been objected council of the Seneca tribe of Indians. Referto, Mr. MORRIS said he had received in- red to the committee of the whole, having in structions, first in the 15th ward, and next from charge the report from the committee on the Tammany Hall. Mr. K. dissented, and said as rights and privileges of citizens, and ordered to reported-" thatis not so. The gentleman is be printed. all wrong." Then Mr. MORRIS proceeded to LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. say-" a printed circular was sent to us. I re- Mr. W. TAYLOR intimated his wish that ceived one." The Atlas report then says:- the Convention should proceed to take the vote "Mr. KENNEDY:-There was no answer on the pending motions which have been laid asked to it." on the table, for the reconsideration of quesThis was the error to which he wished to call tions relative to the number of senators, &c., the attention of the Convention, for the pur- as reported by committee number one. He pose of setting himself aright. What he said should make no motion himself. He merely was, that it was not necessary that the answer rose to indicate his wish that the report should should be in the affirmative. So far from there be disposed of. being no answer asked to it, he would read an Mr. RUGGLES had supposed yesterday, from extract from the introduction to those queries a calculation which was made in haste, between which were put, to show that there was an an- the morning and evening sessions, that some swer asked. improvement could be made on the report ol Mr. SWACKHAMER enquired what tues- the standing tommittee. He was however sattion was before the Convention. He thought isfied, on a rcexamination of the report, and or 352 consultation with others, that the report could not be altered, as he supposed; or that if altered, it would produce consequences which he had not foreseen. He should therefore abandon the attempt to change the eight districts, as he had designed. Mr. TOWNSEND suggested that it might be necessary to reprint this report as amended in committee of the whole, and hence it was important that it should be perfected. He moved that it be taken up and the motions to reconsider disposed of seriatim. Mr. SHEPARD hoped his colleague would withdraw his motion. He thought it would be precipitate to dispose of those motions now. Mr. TOWNSEND withdrew his motion, but moved that the report as amended be printed. Mr. CAMBRELENG must disagree with the gentleman from New-York (Mr. SHEPARD).He did not think this Convention had or was likely to " precipitate" any thing this session. [Laughter.] After an ineffectual effort by Mr. SHEPARD, to induce the Convention to lay the report on the table for one week, only 28 voting in favor of that motion, A motion by Mr. W. TAYLOR to postpone to Tuesday was then negatived, 54 to 40. A motion was then made to reconsider the vote by which 48 was rejected as the number of senators. Mr. WARD called for the yeas and nays. Mr. LOOMIS desired the vote to be taken first on reconsidering the vote adopting 32. Mr. O'CONOR spoke at much length in favor of double districts and an increase of senators. His remarks will be given hereafter. Mr. CHATFIELD and Mr. RHOADES also continued the debate. Mr. SIMMONS said he had frequently expressed a desire that the term of the Senate and the Assembly should be long enough to secure an efficient check on legislation till the general, matured, permanent public sentiment could express itself. For that purpose, he desired the Convention to adopt four years as the senatorial term and two years for the Assembly.That, however, was contrary to the sentiment,of the Convention, and he submitted. Indeed he had before intimated his opinion that two years now were equivalent to four years forty years ago, for all the purposes for which time was a requisite-that is, for the purpose of generalizing and maturing public sentiment.When the vote was taken the other day, for single districts, he gave his vote with the view to do the best he could. His county, so far as it was entitled to be heard here, was unquestionably in favor of single districts, for the election of senators, so that they might have an opportunity to know for whom they voted, and that their representative might know them.Suppose they had 48 senators and 24 districts, then they would have single districts. There would be but one man elected at a time. He spoke of the argument in favor of making New York city four districts, to which he expressed his repugnance. He thought there would be no difficulty in the districting that the board of supervisors would not be able to surmount; or the legislature could do it; but by whomsever to be done, it was desirable that the Assembly districts should be single throughout the state, for plain and obvious reasons. Without such a division, one part might elect by general ticket, and another part by single districts, and, as Mr. Jefferson said in his letter to Mr. Madison, there can be no democracy where that exists. He was for single Assembly districts and for 48 sentors to be elected in 24 senatorial districts, one each year, which was single enough, and would be satisfactory to the people. Mr. W. TAYLOR defended the report of the committee, especially against the arguments which had been adduced to prove that the e. lections in alternate senate districts would lead to the "ride and tie" system. He said this might be the case if there were no other than senatorial elections, but there would at the same time be elections in every county throughout the state, to engage the attention of the people. Besides colonization and other election frauds could be guarded against by a 60 days' residence and other provisions; and thus while these evils were avoided, the fundamental principles for which gentlemen had contended would be preserved. Mr. STRONG pointed to the past to show gentlemen the necessity of being expeditious in the transaction of their business, and concluded by moving the previous question. The previous question was not seconded, but 27 voting for the motion. Mr. WORDEN denied that he had changed his ground on the question, as had been intimated; but when he was called upon to give his vote on such a question, he should look to what had been done and settled, and get the result of a disturbance of a proposition that this Convention had agreed to. He was in'favor of a larger number than 32 senators, but he was equally in favor of single senate districts, and on no consideration would he hazard and jeopard the principle on which they had settled the single senate districts. His friend from New York, had given them a glowing statement of the past, and said they must have double senate districts to control the popular will; but if he had time he could shew that double senate districts would be more likely to yield to popular impulses than single districts. Mr. MARVIN next spoke at length in favor of the increase of senators. His remarks will be given hereafter. Mr. TILDEN continued the debate. Mr. STEPHENS remarked, that the powerful argument of his colleague (Mr. O'CoNoR) had not been met on its main point-which he understood to be the importance of the double district system, with a view to secure stability in the senate. The argument had rather been confined to the comparative excellencies of the double and single district system in other respects. We had agreed that senators should be elected for two years, and at the same time with the assembly-that is, both houses were to come in on the same impulse, whatever the excitement prevalent at the time. This would of course bring here two houses elected under the same influences and who would necessarily act out the one will that sent them here. But he would not re-argue the question. He rose ra 353 ther to present a fact which he had been surprised to see had not been alluded to in the course of this debate, illustrative of the check upon hasty legislation, which was the result of our system as now organized. He alluded to the fact that inthe year 1839, bills passed the assembly loaning the credit of the state to the amount of' $5,000,000, on account of works that would have cost $50,000,000. The senate rejected every one of those bills, except a single one appropriating $400.000. If the two houses had come in under the same impulse that year, probably all these bills would have passed, and this state would have been brought into the ruinous condition of some of the sister states.He desired a reconsideration in the hope of getting double districts. He would even take the ride-and-tie system in preference to this. He thought the state had been saved by the senate and might be again. Mr. NICHOLAS said he had determined to vote for a reconsideration. He had before avowed his intention to adhere to the present number of senators, but that there were objects to be attained by an increase that he deemed of such importance, that he might be induced to vote for such increase. And the leading motive with him in voting for such increase would be to restore the principle of permancy in the senate as it now existed. He should have been pleased with a three years' term-as not too long to secure experience in the Senate, which would be more and more necessary as our state went forward in population-and at the same time he would adhere to the single district system, not only from its great advantages but from a belief that it was desired by the people. But he could not see the necessity of sacrificing the principle of permancy in the Senate. There was no substantial objection to the " ride and tie" system that had been adopted and thoroughly tested in other states-especially if we should adopt one of the provisions of the report of the committee on the elective franchise, requiring sixty days' residence prior to an election in the town or ward. Nor could he imagine how the interests of a district could be injuriously affected, by electing a senator every alternate year. He was satisfied that nothing but an increase of senators would secure to the rural districts of the state their due representation as compared with the cities. He said this from no feeling of jealousy towards the cities-for he appreciated their importance to the country. But the country owed it to itself to look well to this question. He repeated, this important subject was worthy of a reconsideration,with a view to an effort to restore this principle of the permanency and character of the Senate, and to secure to the rural districts their due influence in the councils of the state-under the great disproportion in the growth of the cities. Circumstances, which hereafter probably would not exist, had depreciated the Senate in the public estimation. Its participation in the appointing power has given to it too much of a political character. We should probably strip it of that attribute-and if we could give it permanency, he should always look on it as on all Senates, as the sheet anchor of the govern. ment. 23 Mr. FORSYTH should vote against a reconsideration-not because his opinions on the subject of an increase of senators had been chanri ed, but because he believed the single district system might be put at hazard by it. He came here with instructions on this subject which he did not feel at liberty to disregard-not instructions from a political meeting or caucus, but from the great mass of his constituents of all parties-who, without exception, so far as he" knew, were for the single district system. He should be glad to see the number in both-houses increased-for he believed that numbers,there was safety-but even that would be of little importance, and would add little to the security of the people, unless members of both houses were elected by a single undivided constituency. The latter he considered as of higher importance, and therefore he should vote against reconsidering. True, the question of single districts was not directly involved here. But when he heard gentlemen who urged a reconsideration, avowing as part of their plan, forty-eight senators and double districts, he confessed that it alarmed him to such a degree as to induce him to stand by the number thirty-two. Again he believed that our senators and representatives should be elected every year, and this doctrine of the stability of the Senate was false. He denied that the Senate had been the conservator of the public interests or welfare, or ad stood up against public impulses more steadily than the Assembly. As a set-off to the case alluded to by Mr. STEPHENS, Mr. F. pointed to a case where the Senate passed a bill appropriating seven and a half millions to certain banks, and which the house killed. The truth was that each house, from a variety of circumstances, often political, acted as a check on each other. Nor did he believe in this doctrine of popular impulses. He had no fears in leaving this whole matter in the hands of the people, believing that if the popular impulse should lead the legislature off the track, the sober second thought would bring them back again. He should be happy to unite with the friends of an increase of senators, but not to the hazard of the paramount principle of single districts. Mr. CHAMBERLAIN said he had supposed that if any one question was better settled than another in the Convention-unless it was the matter of striking out " native" from among qualifications for Governor-it was that the senate should consist of 32 senators, and that those senators should be elected in single districts. This plan had his approbation. He believed it to be in accordance with the feeling and wish of his constituents. He had supposed also that the people had a right to expect at the hands of this Convention, above all things, retrenchment and reform in the expenses of the government. The proposition here virtually was to increase the senate from eight to sixteen members; and at the same time the probability was that the senate was to be stripped of its judicial power, and some other tribunal sub. stituted as a court of last resort. This gentle. men supposed, was to cum tail the expenses of the government. The expense to the people of the present Court of Errors was about $25,000 per annum. As far as that went, there would be a 354 reduction of expenses. But would not the new court, as contemplated, increase the expense still more? It had been suggested that eight or twelve judges were to constitute this court. They must have a salary of from $2,500 to $3000. If the expense of the new court was to be any thing like this, it was evident we should save nothing in point of expense by the change.Hence, he would vote against a reconsideration, believing it to be the wish not only of his constituents but of the whole people to lessen the expenses of government, and that they did not expect or desire to see the Senate increased. Mr. HAWLEY though in favor of an increase of the number of senators, nevertheless was disposed to acquiesce in the decision of the Convention. And especially was he opposed to opening this question to aid gentleman in establishing double districts. To that he was utterly opposed. Mr. H. in further allusion to the course of the Senate as contrasted with the Assembly, called attention to the fact that in 1833, the Assembly passed a bill appropriating one million for canal purposes-which the Senate increased to four millions, and that at the same session a bill passed the Senate authorizing an issue of seven and a half millions of stock, ostensibly to aid the banks to resume.Both these bills, appropriating in all eleven millions and a half, received the sanction of the Senate and not of the Assembly. Mr. TAGGART thought the question of single districts was a separate and abstract question from this; and he hoped it would not be mingled up with it. He came here in favor of single districts. He was still in favor of them; but he should be witling to compromise that question, if thereby we could increase the representation and equalize it. But on no other principle would he consent to vote for. double districts. He regarded an increase of representation as the only mode of saving the rural districts, and he desired the country to regard the proposition from the city and growing districts, as an act of magnanimity on their part. Mr. HUNT could not see how it was, if the city of New-York elected one-eighth of the Senate, how the country was to gain by an increase of the Senate. Mr. TAGGART was understood to reply that the city, in apportioning the Assembly, had the advantage of one member, by an aggregation of fractions, of which it had the benefit. Mr. BASCOM, though originally in favor of an increase of senators, was disposed to acquiesce in the decision of the body-especially as it had decided also in favor of single districts. With both these together, he was content. Mr. O'CONOR said, that in conceding great force to the objections to the ride-and-tie system, he was rather conceding to the opinions of others, than distinctly expressing his own.What he deemed as a primary object, was some degree of continuity in the Senate; and if he could secure that, he was prepared to go for single districts, with the ride-and-tie system, and all its supposed evils. For, by introducing stringent provisions against fraud, in the article on the elective franchise, we could in a great measure prevent the evils apprehended from the ride-and-tie system. Let us have that system, with these guards, rather than give up the all important result-that of securing some continuity in the Senate. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN insisted that there was no force in the argument that the cities were to have a preponderance over the country under this system-and that it was founded on a mistaken idea that there was a natural collision of interests between city and country. He would not object to increasing the Senate; still he believed there was no call for it from the people. The complaints were against the judicial power of the Senate, and that the districts were too large. If we went beyond that, we went farther than the people asked us to go, and we enhanced materially the expenses of government. He should vote against reconsid. ering. Mr. BRUCE regarded the question as settled that we were to have single Senate and Assembly districts; and whatever might have been his views of an increase of senators, he regarded that question as settled also. And he feared that if this vote was reconsidered, we jeopardized the question of single districts, which he believed to be a darling principle with the people. Besides, he was disposed to let this matter stand where a large majority had placed it. and if possible, to dispose of this article, which had already occupied too much time. Mr. ST. JOHN here moved the previous question, and there was a second, and The main question was then put, and the Convention refused to reconsider-ayes 39, noes 70, as follows:AYES —Messrs. Angel, Bergen, Bowdish, Brundage, Chatfield, Conely, Cornell, Danforth, Dubois, Gardner, Hart, Hunt, Jones, Kemble, Kennedy, Loomis, Mann, Marvin, Murphy, Nellis, Nicholas, Nicoll, O'Conor, Perkins, President, Ruggles, Shepard, Simmons, W. H. Spencer, Stephens, stetson, Stow, Svackhnmer, Taft, Taggart, J J. Taylor, Tilden, Vache, White-39. NOES-Messrs. Ayrault, H Backlus, Bascom, Bouck, Prayton, Brown, Bruce, Bull, Burr, Cambreleng, D D. Camlpbell Candee, Chamberlain, Coos, Crooker, Cuddeb'ack, Dana, Dodd, Dorlon, Flanders, Forsyth, Gebhaid, Harris, Harrison, Hawley, Hotchkiss, Hunter, A. Hfuntington, E. Huntington, Hutchinzon, Hyde, Jord in, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Parish, Ptterson. Pennirnan, Porter,Powers, Rhoades, Richmond, Hiker, St. John, Salisbury, Sears, Shaver, Shaw, Sheldn, E. Spencer, Stantn, Strong, Tall. madge, W. Taylor, Townsend, Tuthill, Van Schoon. hoven, Ward, Warren, Waterbury, Witbeck, Wood, Worden, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Young, Youngs-70. The Convention then took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. Mr. W. TAYLOR moved that the Conven. tion go into committee of the whole on the re. port of committee No. One, in order that it might be reported to the Convention in form. He supposed there would be no motions to amend. This motion was agreed to, and Mr. PATTERSON took the chair. Mr. MURPHY moved a reconsideration of the vote refusing to add Richmond to the first district, and briefly advocated his motion. Messrs. HARRISON and CAMBRELENG opposed the motion, and it was negatived, 32 to 47. Mr. KENNEDY offered an amendment,transposing the arrangement of the wards in the city 355 of New York, so that they should be as follows: He wished to say, in justice to the chairman of District No. 3 shall consist of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, committee number one, that he retired to his 6th, and 8th wards of the city and county of New. chamber and perfected his arrangement of the York. several districts without consulting a single District No 4 shall iohsist of the d, 4th, 7th, 10th, member in relation to their preferences. He District No. 5 shall consist of the 11th, 14th, lthand had said nothing to himself in relation to West17th wards. chester, and he believed that others could repeat District No. 6 shall consist of the 9:h, 12th, 16th and the same declaration. 18th wards Messrs. SHEPARD, MORRIS and O'CONMr. KENNEDY said in presenting this plan, OR, approved Mr. KENNEDY'S proposition. he did not wish to be understood as supposing Mr. WHITE would assent to it, although he that this was the best which could be formed. regarded the arrangement of the committee as a A better division could no doubt be effected by just and equitable one. dividing wards and basing the division on clec- Mr. RHOADES moved to pass over the four tion districts, but they had not time to make New-York districts, to give time to the delegasuch a division. He still had a faint hope that tion from that city to consult together and agree the Convention, before it adjourned, would see upon some division. the injustice which they had done to New York This was assented to. by obliging them to divide it into four separate No amendments were offered to any of the districts, and retrace its steps. He proceeded districts from number seven to twenty-four in. at length to explain the plan which he had pro- clusive. posed. The 25th district-Tompkins, Seneca and Che. Mr. WARD inquired if the delegation from mung-Mr. MAXWELL proposed to change New York concurred in this plan? -so that it would consist of Tompkins, SenMr. KENNEDY replied, that all with whom eca and Yates-and to make the 26th district he had spoken upon the subject concurred in it. consist of Steuben and Chemung, instead of Mr. WARD took occasion to say, in view of Steuben and Yates. Agreed to. some remarks which had fallen from members The others were agreed to without change. of the New York delegation in relation to dele- Mr. MARVIN moved to amend the 2d secgates from the country, that there was no dis- tion, so as to authorize the legislature after 1855 position on the part of the latter to take any to increase the number of senators to not exceedcourse which would result in injury to the great ing 50, and the assembly to not exceeding 150. commercial metropolis. For one, he had no Lost. such desire; and he believed that if the delega- The committee then rose and reported the artion from that city could present a plan which tide to the Convention, and it was laid on the they believed would do them greater justice table and ordered printed as amended. than that reported by the committee, there The Convention then adjourned to 9 o'clock would not be the least objection to adopting it. to-morrow morning. THURSDAY, JULY 30. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. McDoNOUGH. CANALS FINANCES, &c. Mr. HOFFMAN, from the Third standing committee, made the following report, which was read by the Secretary, Mr. H. being too unwell to read it himself: ARTICLE-. On the existing debts and liabilities of the state, and to providefor the payment thereof. 1 After paying the expenses of collection, superintendence and ordinary repairs, [$1,S00,000] one million and five hundred thousand dollars of the revenues of the state canals shall, in each fiscal year, and at that rate for a shorter period, commencing ( n the first day of June, one thousand eight hundred and forty-six, be set apart as a sinking fund, to pay the interest and redeem the principal of that part of the state debt ca led the Canal Debt, as it existed at the time aforesaid, and inc:uding three hundred thousand dollars then to be borrowed, until the same shall be wholly paid; and the principal and income of the s id sinking fund shall be sacredly appl ed to that purpose. ~ 2 In liquidation of the state claims for advances to, and payments for, the canals f$672,500J, six hun. dred and seventy-two thousand and five hundred dollars of the revenues of the said canals, shall, forever, in each fiscal year, and at that rate for a shorter period, commencing on the first day of June, one thousand eight hundred and forty-six, be paid into the treasury frr the use of the state; and if the payment of that sum, or any part thereof, shall be delayed by rea. son of the priority established in the preceding sec. tion, the amount so deliyed, with quarterly interest thereon, at the then current rate, shall be so paid out of the said revenues as soon as can be done consist. ently with such priority. ~ 3 The surplus of the revenues of the canals, after paying the said expenses of the canals and the sums appropriated by the two preceding sections, shall, in each fiscal year, be applied to the improvement of the Erie canal, in such manner as may be directed by law, until such surplus shall amount in the aggregate to the sum of [(-2,500,0000 two million five hundred thousand dollars. ~ 4 uf the sum of six hundred and seventy-two thousand five hundred dollars required by the second section of this article to be paid ito the treasury, [too00,000, five hundred thousand dollars shall, in each fiscal year, and at that rate for a shorter period, commencingon the first day of June, one thousand eight hundred and forty-six, be set apart as a sinking fund to pay the interest and redeem the principal of that part of the state debt called the General Fund debt, including the debt for loans of the state credit to railroad companies which have failed to pay the interest there. on, and also the contingent debt on state stocksloaned to incorporated companies which have hitherto paid the interest thereon, whenever and as far as:tny part thereof may become a charge on the treasury or General Fund, until the same shall be wholly p id; and the principal and income of the said last mentioned sinking find shall be sacredly applied to the purpose aforesaid; and if the payment of any part of the said five hundred thousand dollars shall at any time be 4a. 356 ferred by reason of the priority recognized in the propriation by law, nor unless such payment be made second section of this article, the sum so deferred, within two years next after the passage of such approwith quarterly interest thereon, at the then current priation act; and every such liwv making a new approrate, shall be paid to the last mentioned sinking fund, priation, or continuing or reviving an appropriation, as soon as the sum so deferred shall be received into shall distinctly specify the sum appropriated and the the treasury. object to which it is to be applied; and it sh 1 not be ~ 5. The claims of the state against any incorporated sufficient for such law to re.er to any other law to fix company to pay the interest and redeem the principal such sum. of the stock of the state loaned or advanced to such ~. The credit of the state shalt not, in any manner, company, shall be fairly and duly enforced, and not be given or loaned to, or in aid of, any individual, assodelerred, released or compromised; and the moneys ciation or incorporation. arising from such claims shall be set apart and app ied ~ 3. The state may, to meet casual deficits or failures as pArt of the sinking fund provided in the fourth sec. in revenues, or for expenses not provided for, contiact tioli of this article debts, but such debts, direct or contingent, singly or in ~ 6. If the sinking lunds, or eitner ot them provided the aggregate, shall not, at any time, exceed one milin this article, shall prove insufficient to enable the lion of dollars, and the moneys arising from the loans state on the credit of such fund, to procure the means creating such debts shall be applied to the purpose for to satisfy the claims of the creditors of the state as which they were obtained, or to repay the debt so con. they become payable, the legislature shall by equita- tracted, and to no other pnrpose whatever ble taxes so increase the revenues of the saiit funds as ~ 4. In addition to the above limited powers to conto make them respectively sufficiet perfectly to pre- tract debts, the state may contract debts to repel invaserve the public faith. Every contribution or advance sion, suppress insurrection, or defend the state in war; to the canals or their debt from any source other than but the money arising from the contracting of such their direct revenues, shall, with quarterly interest, debts shall be applied to the purpose for which it was at the rates then current, be repaid into the treasury raised, or to repay such debts, and to no other purpose for the use of the state out of the canal revenues, as whatever. soon as it can be done consistently with the just rights ~ 5. Except the debts specified in the third and fourth of the creditors holding the said canal debt. sections of this article, no debt or liability shall be 7. The legislature shall not sell, lease or otherwise hereafter contracted by or on behalf of this state, undispose of any of the canals of the state, so far as the less such debt shall be authorized by a law for some same are now finished and navigable; but they shall single work or object, to be distinctly specified t herein, remain the property of the state and under its nianage- and such law shall impose and provide for the collecment forever. By order of the committee, tion of a direct annual tax, to pay, and sufficient to MICHAEL HOFFMAN, Chairman. pay the interest on such debt as it falls due, anti also Mr. HOFFMAN said after the distinct opin- to pay and discharge ihe principal of such debt within eighteen years from the time of the contracting thereion of the Convention, expressed by a formal of. No such lwv shall t:ke effect untii it shall, at a vote, that it would be inexpedient for a corn. general election, have been submitted to the people mittee to report their reasons, any observations and have received a majority of all the votes cast for the of this measure at this time w or against it, at such election On the final passage on the merits of this measure aof such bill in either house of the legislature, the be entirely out of place. When the subject should question shall be taken by ayes and noes, to be duly come before the Convention in committee of the entered on the journals there f, a id shall be: "Shall whole or in the body of the House, he would this bill pass, and ought the same to receive the sancavail himself of the opportunity to lay before tion ofter the peole?al The lesh lature may e at anyi time alter the atproval of such law by the people, if it the reasons that had induced him to unite no debt shall iave been contracted or liability incurwith the committee in this report. In the end red in pursuance thereof, repeal the law; and may at or ends to be attained by it-the payment of the any time by law forbid the contracting of any further l m b debt or liability under such law; but tie tax imposed state debt, and the settlement ot all claims be-by such act, in proportion to the debt and liability tween the canals on the one side and the state on which may have been contracted in pursuance of such the other-he believed the committee were unan- law shall remain in force and be irrepealable, and be imous. But on a subject so vast as this, involv. annually collected until the proceeds theeof shall isuhave made the provision hereintofore specified to pay ing such complicated and minute calculations, al- and discharge tha interest and principal of such debt though he believed that every member of the com- and liability. mittee had endeavored as well as his leisure would The money arising from any loan or stock creating permit, to make calculations to aid his judgment, debt or liability shall be applied to the work or object pspecified in the act authorizing such debt or liability, yet some of them had not had the opportunity or for the repayment of such debt or liab.lity, and for to make those calculations as minute as they no other puppose whatever. desired, and they would therefore have it dis. No such law shall be submitted to be acted on with. understood that in the attempt to erect three months after its passage or at any general tinctly understood that in the attempt to erfect election, hen any other law orany bill or any amend. these provisions-in giving to them more con. mendment of the constitution, shall be submitted to be sideration-they reserved to themselves, what voted for or against he supposed was not only their right, but a right ~ 6. Every law which imposes, continues, or revives d a tax, shall distinctly state the tax and the object to of which he supposed they could not divest which it is to be applied, and it shall not be sufficient themselves-the privilege of conforming to the to refer to any other law to fix such tap or object. best deliberation they could give to the subject. 7 On the final passage, in either house ofthe leWith these observations, which he hoped would gislature, oh every act which imposes, continues or revives a tax, or makes, continues. or revives any ap. do justice to every member of the committee, propriation of public or trust money or property-or he moved that the report would be printed, and releases, discharges or commutes any debt or demand referred to the committee of the whole. of the state, the question sh ll be taken by ayes and The motion was agreed to. noes, which shall be duly entered on the journals, and three.fif:hs of all the members elected to either Mr. HOFFMAN again rose, and said he was house shall, in all such cases, be necessary to constidirected by the committee on Finance to make tute a quorum therein the following report:- By order of the committee, ARTICLE - MICHAEL HOFFMAN, Chairman. n the poer to createfuture state debts and lblt es, Mr. HOFFMAN said that in this article the nd in prest[rant thereof. committee was in the main he believed unani. 1. No money shall ever be paid out of the treasury mous. In the first place as to the clause relative of this state, or any of its funds, or any of the funds to specific appropriations, and the means to en. under its management, Except in pursuance of an ap. I force it, he believed there was no dissent. On 357 the clause limiting casual debts to a million of dollars, some gentlemen supposed it might be necessary in a state of from three to six millions of inhabitants to enlarge the amount a small extent. On the proposition which authorizes the creation of a debt for particular purposes by special law, he was not aware that there was any serious difference of opinion, Some gentlemen might think the same end m ght be attainel by other means than tubmission to the people, or that making the debt payable in 18 years was not sufficiently stringent; but with some doubts and difficulties on the points he had mentioned, he believed the committee was unanimous in the opinion that the industry and labor of the state should be defended as strongly as was now proposed, at least against extravagant expenditures and taxation in consequence of it. With this declaration, he moved that the report be referred to the same committee of the whole to which the preceding report was referred, and that it be printed. The motion was agreed to. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. Mr. MURPHY, from the Fourteenth standing committee, made the following report:ARTICLE 1. Private property shall not be taken for improvements in cities and villages, unless the compensation therefor shall be first determined before a judici.l tribunal oy a jury of twelve freeholders of the city or village where the same shall be situated, who shall be chosen and qualified as jurors in civil cases. 2 No local assessment for any improvement in any city or village, shall be laid, unless a majority of all the owners of the lands to be assessed shall apply for such improvement, nor unless such improvement shall be ordered by a vote of two-thirds of the common council or board of trustees of such city or village. 3. No debt shall be created by any city or village corporation except to suppress insurrection, or to provide against an existing pestilence or casualty, unless the same shall be authorized by act of the legislature, for some single object or work to be distinctly specified therein, which law shall provide the ways and means excl-sive of loans to pay the interest of such debt as it shall fall due, and also to pay and discharge the principal thereon within twenty years, by tax to be asses-ed and collected upon the taxable property of such city or village, in equal amounts as near as may be, annually, and such law shall be irrepealable until such debt and the interest thereon, shall be fully paid and discharged. And no such lawv shall take effect until it shall have been approved by a majority of the electors of such city or village; and no money so raised shall be applied otherwise than to the object specified in such law. By order of the committee H. C. MURPHY, Chairman. Mr. M. said that, regarding the first section, the committee was unanimous; but with regard to the others, it was not so. Differing himself from the committee on this, that the provisions which they had submitted did not go into the defects of our system of municipal corporations, he had prepared a minority report, which he asked permission to submit at this time. The Secretary read the minority report, as 'follows:ARTICLE -. 1. No charter or special act for the incorporation of any city or village shall be granted, but general and uniform laws shall be passed for the incorporation of cities, and like laws for the incorporation of villages, subject to such alterations as the legislature shall from time to t time deem proper to mike. The boundaries and limits of the territory included within any city or village corporation shall be determined in such manner as the legislature shall prescribe. 2. No assessment for any improvement in any city or village shall be laid otherwise than by general tax upon the taxable property of such city or village, levied and collected with an annual tax for other expenses 3 Private property shall not be taken fur any improvement in any city or village other than for state purposes, unless the compensation shall be first fixed by a jury in a coui t proceeding according to the course of the common law. 4. No debt shall be contracted oy any city or villnge corporation on a longer credit than twenty years, nor unless there shall be levied and collected in its annual tax of the preceding year one-twenii, th part of such debt towards the repayment of the same, unless such debt be necessary to provide against pestilence or casuality. Alter the creation of any debt there shall be levied and collected in said annual tax annually thereafter one-twentieth part, or as near one twentieth part as may be, of such debt, towards its repayment. 5. Money shall not be borrow, d by any city or village corporation in anticipation of its r.nnual tax, except for the purpose of paying interest about to become due on any debt now existing, or to be created under the limitations of this article, nor unless the amount shall have been previously levied in such annual tax 6. No liability shall be contrac ed by any city or village corporation, unless provision have previously been made in its annual tax for discharging the same, or unless the same be incurred tinder the limitations of this article IHENE.Y C. MURPHY. Mr. MURPHY moved that these reports be printed, and referred to the committee of the whole. The motion was agreed to. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. Mr. STRONG moved that the Convention proceed to the unfinished business. The motion was agreed to, and the Convention took up the article from the first standing committee, as amended in committee of the whole. The first section was approved without amend. ment. The second section having been read, Mr. MARVIN moved to amend by adding at the end of the section the words following:"The legislature may after the enumeration tn be made in the year I8S5, increase the number of senators to any number not exceeding fifty, and the number of members tf assembly not exceeding 160."' Mr. W. H. SPENCER called for a division, so as take the vote first on increasing the number of senators. Mr. KENNEDY suggested the propriety of altering the word "' increase" to " change," for the legislature might hereafter deem it necessary to reduce the number of senators. Mr. MARVIN was understood to decline giv-. ing power to the legislature to reduce the number of senators. After a brief conversation, Mr. MARVIN modified his amendment so as to provide that: I" The legislature after the next state enumeration may increase the number of senators to any number not exceeding 60, and members of assembly to any number not exceeding 150; and may after every state enumeration fix the number of senators at any number between 32 and 50 inclusive, and the members of Assembly at any number between 128 and Jio inclusive." After a brief conversation between Mr. MARVIN, Mr. BASCOM, and Mr. TALLMADGE, the question was taken on the first division-the increasing the number of senators, and it was rejected-ayes 35, noes 70, as follows: AYES-Messrs. Angel, H. Backus, Bascom, Bull Burr, Chatfield, Conely, Cornell, Crooker, lorlon, Du bois, Gardner, Gebhard, Hart, Jones, Kemble, Kennedy Loomis, Marvin, Nellis, O'Conor, Patterson, Porter Powers, President, Richmond, Salisbury, Shepard, W 358 H. Spencer, Stephens, Swackhamer, Taft, Taggart, Tildein, Ytoung-35 N,YS —Ayrault, F F. Backus, Bergen, Bouck, Bow. dish, Brayton, Brown, Bruce, Brundage, Cambreleng, D D. Campbe 1, Candee, Clark, Clyde, Cook, Cuddeback, Dana, )anlorth, Dodd, Flanders. Forsyth, Harrison, Haw;ey, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A. Huatington, E. Huntitlnton, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordan, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland, McNeil. McNitt, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nicholas, Nicoll, Parish, Penniman, Periiiis, lRhodes, hikr, Huggles,,t. John, Sears, Shaw, Slleldon, Smith, E. Spencer, Stanton, Stetson, Strong, 'alllnadgp, J. J.Taylor, W Taylor, Townsend, 'i ithi 1, Vatlschoonhoven, Waterbury, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, W. B Wright, Yawger, Youulgs-7o. The question the recurred on the other division-to increase the number of members of Assembly. Mr. MARVIN said he supposed the vote just taken settled the question, he therefore would not trouble the Convention to take the yeas and nays. Mr. TALLMADGE renewed the demand for the yeas and nays-and there were ayes 21, noes 87. So the entire proposition was negatived. The 5th section was then taken up. [It di. vides the state into and prescribes the Senate districts.] Mr. WV. TAYLOR moved to strike out and insert the section originally reported by the committee. Mr. KENNEDY remarked that to assent to that would be to bring them to the " ride and tie" system. Mr. LOOMIS should vote against the propo. sition. He preferred that senators should be elected for two years, and all go out at once, to this chequered system which the committee had proposed, although he desired to avoid even the first conclusion. By the committee's plan, half the state was every year to be disfranchised,and yet they had to go through the whole form and expense of the election every year. That proposition too would afford facilities for colonization and corruption. He also called the attention of the Convention to the fact that, by the committee's plan the elections for the cities were brought together in one year, and the elections for the country in the other year. He pointed out how the Senate might be influenced by an excitement got up in the cities, which were more exposed to excitements than the rural districts, and hoped the Convention would adhere to the vote already given on this subject. Mr. PERKINS thought motions to reconsider should not be made where there was an expres. sive vote of the body in favor of a provision, or unless the question had been decided by a small and close vote. But this being such a mo. tion in effect, he proceeded to address himself to the question. He proceeded to discuss the prominent topics which have been brought forward in this debate. Mr. W. TAYLOR briefly replied to the re. marks of the gentleman from Herkimer, and others. The yeas and nays were then taken on the amendlment and resulted yeas 21, nays 86-as follows:AYE>S-Uonely, Dorlon, Dubois, E. Huntington, Jor an,li Kemble, Kingsley, Kirkland, Marvin, Nicholas, -YConor, Shoades, huggies, E Spencer, Stephens, "Taft, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, W. Taylor, Vache, Young-21. NAYS-Ayrault, F. F Backus, H Backus, Bascom, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brayton, Brown, Bruce, Brundage Bull, Burr, Carmbreleng, D. 1. Campbell, Candee, Chamberlai,, Chartield, Clark, Clyde. Cook, Cornell, Crooker, Cuddeback, Dana, Danforth, Flianders, Forsyth, Gardner, Gebh;ird, Harris Harrisoii, Hart, Hawley, Hotchkiss, Hiint, Hunter, A. HuntingtonHutchiiison, Hyde. Jones, Kenn dv, Kernan, Loomis, Mc\eil, lvicNitt, Maxwvell, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, Nicoll, Parish, Patterson, Pennirman, Perkins, Porter, Powers, President, Richmond, Ri!;er, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, shepird, Smith, W. H. Spencer,,tanton, Stetson, Slow, Strong, Taggart, 'I ownseld, Tuthill, Vanschoonhoven, Warren, VWate - bury, White, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, Worden, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Youngs-86 Mr. WHITE then moved to strike out all down to and including the 12th line, and insert: '"The state shall be divided into 16 districts to be called Senate Districts, each of which shall choose two senators, and the senators first elected shall be divided into two classes; the senators of the first class shall serve one year, and the senators of the second class two years, and 16 senators shall be elected annually thereafter " Mr. STETSON said he would detain the Con. vention only one minute to explain why he should vote against this amendment. Some days since he had voted for this proposition; but that vote was given under the hope that, it' it prevailed, the Covention would reconsider their previous decision as to the number of senators, and enlarge it so that when doubled, we would have in the territory and population of a double district about the same quantity that would be assigned to a single district with thirty-two for the whole number of the Senate. His motive had been to secure continuity, stability and more experience in the Senate, and also equali. zation of representation. That hope Was now gone. The Convention had refused to reconsider, and this was the last vote. He could not consent to make the districts so large as they would be if doubled on the small number of thirty-two senators. Mr. WHITE called for the yeas and nays and they were'ordered and resulted thus:AYES-Bergen, Brown, Brundage, Conely, Cornell, Hunt, Jones, Kemble, Kennedy, Loomis, Murphy, Nicooil, O't;onor, Perkilns, Rugales, Shepard, Smith, Stephens, Vache, Whit,-O. NAYS-Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H Backus, Bascom, Bouck, Bowdish, Brayton, Bruce, Bull, Burr, Camberleng, i). D. Campbell, It. Campb *1 jr Candee, Chamberlain, Chatfield, Clyde, Cook, Crooker, Cu;tdeback, Dana, Danfor h, Dorlon Duboiu, Flanders, Forsyth, Gardner, Gebhard, Harris, IHarrison;, Hart, Hawley, Hotchkiss, Hunter A. Huntington, E. Hul;tington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordan, Keruan, Kincsley, Kirkland, McNeil, McNitt, Marvin, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Nellis, Nicholas, Parish, Patterson. Penniman, Porter, Powers, President, I hoades, Richmond, Kiker, St John, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon,; Spencer, W. H. Spencer, Stanton, Stetson. Strong. Swackhamnr, Taft, Taggart, Tallmitdge, J J Taylor, W. Taylor, Towns. end, Ttithill, Van-choonhovtn, Warren, Waterbury, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, W. B. Wright: Yawvger, Young, Youngs-87. Mr. MURPHY moved to strike out the word "Richmond" in the 15th line and insert it in the 13th line, so as to make Suffolk, Queens.and Richmond one senate district, and detach Rich. mond from Kings. Mr. M. called for the yeas and nays, and being ordered and taken, they resulted thus:AYES-Bascom, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brayton, Brown, Brundage, R Campbell jr., Chamberlain, Chatfield, Conely, Cook. Cornell, Cuddeback, Danforth, Dodd, Flanders, Gardner, Hart, Hunt, Hunter, E Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Kennedy, Keraan, Kirklanud 359 McNeil, Maxwell, Murphy, NellIs, Nicoll, O'Conor, Perkins, Porter, President, Buggies, St John, Shaw, Sheldon, rhepard, mnith, Stephens, Stetson, Swackhamner, Talt, Townsend, Vachet Waterbury, White, Wood, Yawger, Young 63. NAYS —Ayrault, F F. Backus, H. Backus, Bruce, Bull, Burr, Carnbreleng, D. 1). Canpbell, Clalk, Crooker, Dana, tDorlon, Dubois, Forsyth, Gebhird, Harris, H;rrison. Haw.ey, Hotclikiss, A. Huntington, Jordan, Kemble Ki gsley, Loomis, AlcVitt, Marvin, Miller, Morris. Nicholas, Parish, Patterson, Penniman, Powers, Rthoades, Richmond, Riker; Salisbury, Sears, E. Spencer, W. H Spencer, Stanton, Stow, ltiong, T ggait, Tallmadge, J. J Taylor, Tuthill, Va,.schoonhoven Warren, W B. Wright, Youngs- 1 Mr. KENNEDY moved to amend by striking out from the word " district" in the 1uth line, to the word "wards" in the 23d line; and insert as follows: "Districts No. 3, No. 4, No. 5 and No. 6, shall consist of the city and county of New York. And the board of supervisors of said city and county.hall on or before the first day of May 1817, divide the city and county into the number of s-nate districts to which it is entitled, as near as may be of an equal number of inhakaitants, and of contiguous territory." Mr. PATTERSON said this was adopting a new principle, to go on and divide up the state and then say that the board of supervisors shall divide the city of New York into four districts. We had better finish up this business Something had been said about political divisions, but that he had disregarded. It was sufficient for him to know that the districts were compact, without looking to the returns which those districts had given. He thought the districts formed by the committee, were fair, and there was a ventleman from New York on the committee to whom they were satisfactory. Mr. W. TAYLOR preferred that the Convention should go on and perfect the districts as they had begun, instead of leaving it to the board of supervisors in New-York to district that city. Mr. O'CONOR advocated the amendment of his colleague. This Convention had undertaken to form the districts, and not to turn them over to local bodies representing the whole districts. As to the Assembly, they had come to the conclusion, there being local bodies representing counties that had to be subdivided, that they would turn them over to such bodies. The principle on which the Convention had acted was that where there were several counties that had to be placed together, the operation of placing them together and classifying them was performed by this Convention; but when a county had to be cut up into parts for the purpnse of forming legislative districts that they had determined to turn it over to the local autlorities of the county to make the division. This was the principle on which they had gone thus far.They had taken on themselves the formation of the senatorial districts, and turned over the Assembly districts to a local board. The Convention had classified, but the division they had turned over to others. Now in the case of the city of New-York, they had no classification of counties in relation to the Sena:e districts.What they had to do was to divide a single county into three or four legislative districts, Just as that same county, for another purpose was to be divided into sixteen legislative districts. If their course was to harmonize, he contended that this amendment should pass. The precise geographical division was not to be looked to. They should look to population, and that could be done better in New-York city. Mr. NI(OLL said there was another reason. In all probability the wards of New York would be changed by the Convention now sitting in that city; and if that were so and this Convention proceeded to district that city now, it would lead to great confusion. The wards as now laid down, by the 1st ot January next, may not have an existence, and he submitted that New York ought to be allowed to district herself in conformity to the wards to be laid out. Such a course would produce more harmony, and thercfore he hoped this Convention would leave it to a body competent to take charge of it. All they asked was simple justise. He hoped the amendment would prevail. Mr. STRONG said the simple question was whether this Convention should proceed with its business or wait for the city of New York. And whether all the rest of the state should be divided by the Convention, and New York should be districted by its board of supervisors to gerrymander it so as to suit their own views. He hoped the amendment would be voted down. Mr. SWACKHAMER asked how this Con. vention could make the division without knowing any thing of the new wards? He thought that city should be equitably divided and conveniently to its inhabitants. Mr. PATTERSON offered an amendment, to add the words "of compact" after the word "inhabitants," so as to make the districts of "compact and contiguous territory." Mr. KENNEDY had no objection to the amendment. Mr. W. TAYLOR had no objection to have this passed over, until the end of the Convention, to give the Convention sitting in New-York an opportunity to complete the districts. Mr. NICOLL said that would accomplish nothing; for the result of the labors of the city Convention must be passed upon by the people, and afterwards ratified by the legislature. That could not be done while this Convention would remain in session. Mr. BASCOM thought it was proper that where local territory was to be divided, it should be done by the local authorities. He saw no difficulty in this, except that the division would not be made until the constitution itself would have to be submitted to the people. Mr. KENNEDY suggested that neither would the Assembly districts be completed, and yet no difficulty was anticipated in that respect. Mr. MURPHY advocated the amendment. Mr. CROOKER also expressed the hope that New-York might have her own way in this matter. He thought they should hazard nothing by leaving it to the local authorities. Mr. KIRKLAND saw no objection to it. Mr. SHEPARD offered an amendment, to re. quire the board of supervisors, when they shall have completed such division, to cause a certificate thereofstating the number and boundaries of the districts and the population thereof, to be filed in the office of the Secretary of State and the clerk of the said county. Some conversation then ensued between 360 Messrs. TALLMADGE, CROOKER, JONES, and WHITE. Mr. KENNEDY accepted the amendments of Mr. PATTERSON and Mr. SHEPARP Mr. BRUCE opposed the amendments. He thought it was the duty of the Convention to go on and frame the constitution of the state as a state. He objected to the making of any dis. tinctions between the city of New-York and the other counties. After a few words from Messrs. STOW and WORDEN, the amendment was agreed to. The other districts were then taken up in succession, and they were agreed to without debate or amendment, from the 7th to the 16th, inclusive. Mr. SMITH moved to strike the word "Schoharie" from the 42nd line, and insert " Chenango," so as to make the 17th district consist of Chenango and Otsego. He also moved to strike the word " Chenango" from the 47th line, and insert "Schoharie," so as to make Delaware and Schoharie the 18th district. Mr. BOUCK opposed the motion. Mr. SMITH defended it on the ground that Otsego and Chenango were more closely allied than were Chenango and Delaware, by position, commercial intercourse, &c. Mr. BURR said Delaware was singularly sit. uated. She had seven counties of the state of New-York adjoining her, besides Wayne in Pennsylvania, and as they were a very good. natured, amiable set of people, they were willing to take any of those counties, except Wayne in Pa., and they would not be willing to take her unless Pennsylvania paid her canal debt.He said he came here, with some pride, as the representative of the old democratic county of Delaware, which had sometimes claimed to be the banner county; and yet it would be readily perceived, that the whole of her neighbors, even including democratic Chenango, shrunk from her touch. Schoharie, too, made most strenuous opposition to the alliance, in the formation of a senatorial district, and he was apprehensive that the Convention would be compelled to set off Delaware as a district by herself. (Laugh. ter.) He had said they were a very humble people, and therefore he need scarcely say that to be a single district they would submit in all good humor. Mr. HARRIS was in favor of the motion of the gentleman from Chenango, and if the Con. vention should adopt the amendment, he should move to take Schenectady away from Albany, and add her to Delaware and Schoharie. Mr. WATERBURY, Mr. KIRKLAND, Mr. BOUCK, Mr. RHOADES, Mr. SMITH, and some others, continued the discussion of the question, which was then decided in the nega. tive-ayes 43, nays 47, as follows:AYE. —Angel, Brown, Chatfield, Clark, Cook, Cornell, Dubois, Flanders,Forsyth, Gebhard, Harris,Hunt, Hunter, Hyde, Kennedy, Kiikland, Maxwell. Moris, Nicoll, O't:onor, Perkins, Porter, Powers, President Richmond, Riker, St. John, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Smith, Stephens. Stetson, Stow, Svackhnmer, Taft, Taggart, 'allmadge, J. J. Taylor, Vache, White, Wil. lard, Youngs-43. NO,E —.aessrs Ayranlt, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, Bascom, Houck, Rowdish, Brayton, Bruce, Cambre. leng, V. D. Campbell, Candee,:rooker, Dana, Dan. forth, Dodd, Dorlon, GardnerHarrison, Hawley, Hotch. kiss, A. Huntington, Jones, Kingsley, Loomis, McNitt, Marvin. Miller, Nellis, Nicholas, Parish, Patterson, Rhoades, salisbury, Seirs, K. spencer, W. H. Spencer, Stanton. Strong, Fowusend, Tu hill, Van chootthoven, Warren, Waterbury, Wood, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Young -47. Mr. HARRISON moved a re-consideration of the vote by which Richmond was excluded from the second district-and added that he hoped the New York delegation, in arranging the New York districts, would bear in mi'nd that he might be obliged to propose annexing Richmond to one of the lower wards of the city. [A laugh.] The motion to reconsider lies on the table. Mr. WHITE moved to strike out of the section the words " excepting aliens and persons of color not taxed"-so as to include these classes in the basis of representation. A division of this question was demanded, and it was first put on striking out "not taxed." Mr. DANA inquired if this amendment was adopted, whether all colored persons would not be excluded from the basis, whether voters or not? Mr. O'CONOR said the object was to abolish this odious discrimination between persons who were taxed and those who were not. When we came to the question of the elective franchise, the Convention would allow those of this class to vote who had no property, or not, as gentlemen pleased. It raised the question whether we would have them all in, or strike them all out. Mr. DANA opposed excluding those who were entitled to the right of suffrage. True we might change the law and allow none of them to vote. But if we did so, we should do monstrous injustice. Whilst he had the power of speech and the power to act, he should stand up in defence of the equal right of suffrage to all God's children, black orwhite. He was against any discrimination on account of color. Mr. KENNEDY remarked that either the gentleman misunderstood the question or Mr. K. misunderstood him. It was not a question of suffrage, but related to the basis of representation only. Now if' any of this portion of God's children were to be included, the whole should be. This section as it stood, included in the basis of representation only a small portion of these colored citizens-those taxed. What had taxes to do with it? Mr. MURPHY thought the gentleman from Madison (Mr. DANA) understood this question. The gentleman's idea was that these two measures should go together; and he wished in carrying out his ultimate design to meet the difficulty at the threshold. The clause as it stood narrowed the basis of representation in the cities. As proposed to be amended, it narrowed it still more. He had no difficulty on this subject of suffrage. He would allow the present provision of the constitution to stand, allowing persons of color who were taxed to be represented on the principle that taxation and representation should go together. He went for striking out the whole clause-not tnis part of it. Mr. RICHMOND wanted to ask Mr. M., after he had taken all these aliens and persons of color into the basis of representation. whether he would let them *vote for the officers nominated on account of that representation? 361 Mr. MURPHY said he was in favor of retain. came up. This was only whether there should ing the Constitution as it was. be still kept up the distinction based on taxa. Mr. RICHMOND said for his own part, tion. whenever he should vote to make any class the Messrs. BRUCE and KENNEDY briefly con. basis of representation, he would extend to them tinued the debate. when the motion to strikeout the right to vote. He had nothing to say on this the words "not taxed" was negatived. Ayes particular proposition. 13, noes 33. Mr. HUNT wanted to strike out the words The Convention then took a recess. " persons of color not taxed." There were none such who were not taxed, unless they were in AFTERNOON SESSION. state prison. The motion of Mr. WHITE to strike out Mr. PERKINS wanted this amended so as to "persons of color not taxed,"' in the seventh line make the right of representation co-extensive of the sixth section, was negatived, ayes 29, with the right of suffrage. noes 56, as follows:Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN hoped all the, Bytn, Bwn, words in relation to persons of color would be Bruce, t. Camphell, jr, Chatfield, Conely, Crooier, 'stricken out-but to strike out only the words Dana, Dodd, Flanders, Hunt, Miller, Morris, Nicoll, " not taxed," you left an odious distinction be- O'Conor, Khoades, Shepard, Stephens, Stetson,Swack. tween the electors of the state. He was oppos.amer, W. Taylor, Townsend, Van Schoonhoven, War. ed to the present distinction based upon proper- rNOES-, WiMessrs. Angel, F. Backus Bascom,orightck ty. A gentleman near him said he proposed to Bowdish, Cambreleng, D. D Campbell, Candee, Charxstrike out the provision which now allowed co- herlain, Clark, Clyde, Cornell, Cuddeback, Danforth, ored persons to vote. This was indeedl taking Dubois, Gebhard, Harrison, Hart, Hotctikiss, Hunter, lored persons to vote. This was indeed taking A Huntington, Hyde, Kemble, Kennedy, Kernan, Kirk. time by the forelock, and was proposing to work land, Loomisarvin, Ma xwell, Nellis, Nicholas, Par. a still greater wrong upon this class. He hoped ish, Patterson. Penniman, President, Richmond,Riker, the day was not far distant, when inasmuch as Russell, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Smith, W. wehadopenethedoorandadmittethecolor H. Spencer, Stanton, Strong, Tafft, Taggart, Tall. we had opened the door, and admitted the color-. J. T rTuthiH)Wate bury o: ed man to be a citizen, that we should place all ger, Young, Youngs-56. on a par, and admit all to the right of suffrage The last division of the motion, to strike out without reference to color. But the present the word "aliens," was also negatived, ayes 12, proposition was a step backward, in this day of noes 78. Democratic progress fnd reform. He trusted Mr. BASCOM moved as an amendment, to this Convention would not sanction such a wrong add the words "and excluding also." before as was here contemplated. " and." in the 7th line, and also to add the words, Mr. BASCOM found it convenient to have a "so long only as persons of color shall be ex. rule to govern his action here. He had one ap- eluded from the elective franchise, upon the plicable to the case in point. He regarded it as same terms as white persons," after the words well settled by this Convention, that the basis "not taxed," in the eighth line. He did this in of representation should be co-extensive with order to provide for making the people of color the elective franchise. As it was, persons of a part of the basis of representation whenever color who were taxed were a part of the voting they should be admitted to share the elective -population. He was not now saying that this franchise upon equal terms with white citizens, was right or wrong, nor should he consider if that should ever happen. Lost, ayes 36, whether the Convention would change the rule 40 or not. He trusted, however, that we should Mr. HUNT moved to add after the word not do as some gentlemen propose, diminish the "aliens" in the 7th line, "and except the unna number of the electoral class. What would be turalized wives and widows of American citi. the result of the rule established by the gentle- zens." Lost, without a division. man from Rensselaer, who would admit all the The section was then agreed to colored people to the right of representation The section was read, and The seventh section was read, and without allowing them to vote? Why, the same Mr. W. TAYLOR moved to strike out Janu. as is now seen in Congress, where though the y and insert June, as the time when the su. slave population was represented, it was only pervisers should meet to make a division of by those who misrepresented their interests in their counties. Lost, ayes 39, noes 56, as fol. every particular. He would also refer to a case low..-_ in point. The delegation from New.York rep. resented a small portion of these colored citi. AYES-Messrs. Angel, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brown, Brundage, Camnbreleng, R. Campbeil, jr, zens, and yet we saw coming from them propo-. ChambrIain, Clyde) C(rnell, Cuddeback, Dubois, Hart, aitions to strip them still farther of the privile- Hunt, Hutchinson, Hyde) Kemble, Kernan Loomist ges which they now enjoy. Maxwell, Morris, Nellis, Perkins, Powers President, Mr. BRUCE felt bound to vote against this Riker, St. John, Shaw, Sheldon, Shep)ad Stetson, motion, because he considered it his duty, as a Swackhamer, J. ^. Taylor, W. Taylor, Tutieil, Wil. representative, to protect, as far as he could, e NAYS-Messrs. Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, the rights of every American citizen. He be. Bascom, Bruce, D. D. Campbell, Candee, Chatfield, lieved the success of this motion would strike at Clark, Conely, Crooker, Dana, Danforth, Dodd, Flan. some of these rights. This was too grave aA. Huntington, K. Huntington, Kennedy, Kirkland, subject to be decided hastily, and to give time Marvin, Miller, Nicholas Nicoll, O'Conor: larish, Pat. for deliberation he moved to adjourn. Lost. terson, Penniman, Khoaies, F;ichmond, Russell, Salis. Mr. KENNEDY denied that this question bury Sears, Smith, Spencer, W. H. Spencer, Stan. was at all connected with the question of suf. | ton, Stephens. Stow, Strong, Taft, Taggart, Tailmadge, frage. He would meet that question when it White, Witbeck, W. B. Wght, Young, Youi-. 362 Mr. R. CAMPBELL, jr., moved to strikeout It seems that he (Mr. T.) was destined to be from the 6th to the 17th line, inclusive, (con- interruptedin his remarks by the ffve minute tainin- the provision that the division of coun- rule. A few days ago he was stopped by the ap. ties shall be made by the board of supervisors.) plication of the five minute rule, adopted by the He did this with a view to having the appo:- Convention, and to-day he has been relieved by tionment made by the Convention. a similar rule, occasioned by the elements. That The motion was lost as follows: rule was rescinded by the Convention and he AYES-Messrs. Angel, Bergen, Bowdish, Brown, hatl concluded his remarks, and this having now Brundage, K. Campbell, jr., Chatfield, Corne:l, Cudde. been repealed, he would resume the discussion. back, Dsnforth, IJubois, Hunt, Hutchinson, Kernan, He wished to urge for the consideration of the Nellis. O'Conor, Shaw, Sheldon, Ihepard, -mith, Stet- Convention two points in opposition to the a. YawgSer Tylor, W6. Taylor, Tuh, mendment proposed by the gentleman from Wy. NOES-Messrs. Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, oming. First, then, he would remark that the Bascom, Bouck, Brayton, Bruce, Furr, Cambreleng, two and a half towns before their connection to D. D. Campbell. Candee, Chamberlain, Clark, Jlyde Wyoming, had their representation allotted them Conely, Crooker, Dana, Dodd, Flanders, Gardner, Gebhard, Harrison, Hart, Hotchkiss, Hunter, A. Hunt- by the apportionment of two members of As. ington, E. HLi:tington, Hyde, Kemble, Kennedy, Kirk- sembly to Allegany county. That county then land, Loomis, Marvin, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Nich. contained but little more than the full ratio for olas, Nicoll, Parish, Patterson, Penniman, Powers, two memberl. After setting off the town of President, Richmond, Riker, St John, Salisbury, Sears, F. Spencer, W H. Spencer, Stanton,. Stow, Strong, Nunda and the east half of Portage to LivingTaegart, Tallmadge, I ownsend, Van Schoonhoven, ston county, the county of Allegany inclusive of Warren Waterbury, White, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, the two and a hall towns annexed to Wyoming,. Wght, Young, Youngs-. did not contain the full ratio of population for Mr. A. W. YOUNG moved to amend in the two members. That these towns having receiv. 11th line, by inserting after "entitled by law. ed their representation in the allotment to Alle. as follows:-"Except the counties of Wyoming gany, when they formed a part of that county, and Genesee; the former of which shall be di- it was manifestly unjust to Genesee to take from vided into two districts, and the latter shall con. her one of her members in consequence of an ar stitute one district. rangement by which part of Allegany had been Mr. TAGGART said that it would be recol- annexed to Wyoming,in which arrangement Genlected that he had endeavored to have the re- esee has no part. The other reason he should presentation both in Senate and Assembly equal- urge was that since the discussion in the commitized so as to do ample justice both to Genesee tee of the whole, the report of committee number and Wyoming counties. That for the purpose one dividing the state into senate districts had of equality, he had sought to have the number been fully settled by the vote of the Convention. of senators and members of the assembly in- It will be seen by this division, that the senate creased, but the Convention had decided, by re- district in which Genesee was situated, composed peated votes, not to increase the representation, of the counties of Genesee, Orleans and Niaga. and had refused to interfere with the apportion- ra, contained a population exceeding 85000, ment of members of assembly, made by the le- while the district in which Wyoming was situagislature, with which decisions of the Conven- ted, composed of the counties of Allegany and tion he was bound to submit. And he insisted Wyoming, contained a population of but little thatit would not be proper to interfere in this over 62000, making a difference in the popula. case, unless the whole apportionmentshould be tion of the two senate districts of 23000; that set aside, and the representation should be equal- such difference in the representation of the sen. ized throughout the whole state. That Genesee ate districts will make the representation in the ought not to be singled out as an exception to two counties nearly equal by allowing Genesee the general rule adopted by the Convention; and to retain her two mem bers. At all events, it will he desired to urge two reasons in opposition to be much more an equality, than it will be in the amendment proposed by the gentleman from case one member should be taken from Genesee Wyoming, in addition to those he had the honor and given to Wyoming. to present in committee of the whole. One of Mr. PATTERSON, after expressing his rethese reasons had arisen from the action of the gret that the Convention had not consented to Convention since that time. The other, he then increase the number of members of the assemomitted in his remarks before the committee. bly, and thus equalize, in some measure, the [Mr. T. was here interrupted by a violent representation, so as to give to the smaller counthunder gust, accompanied by wind and rain, ties, with large fractions, their just weightwhich entirely drowned his voice, scattered went on to urge that, taking things as we found books and papers upon the floor, and tore the them, we were bound to remedy such gross ine. window curtains of the west windows into a qualities as now existed between these two thousand fragments. The delegates left their counties. Wyoming had a larger population seats in confusion, and the cries of adjourn! ad- than Genesee, by some 2,500, and ought to have journ! adjourn! were the only sounds audible two members. We had undertaken to vary the amidst the roaring of the winds and the reverber. apportionment of senators made last winter, and ations of the repeated peals of thunder. The Ser- why not that for the assembly? geant-at-arms and door-keepers at length closed Mr. CAMBRELENG insisted that the appor. the windows-the tempest subsided-the dele- tionment of last winter being based upon the gates resumed their seats, and order was restor- last census, was right as it stood then, anti ed, when Mr. T., who, during the war, din and ought not to be changed, because by annexa. confusion of the scene, had maintained his posi- tion, Wyoming had since come to exceed Gene. tion, resumed his remarks, and said:] see. That apportionment was constitutional 363 and binding for ten years, and could not and ought not to be disturbed unless we went through the state, and conformed it to the existing population in all cases. He urged also that it would be a mischievous precedent, and upon the recurrence of a new census and appportionment, would justify a legislature in changing county lines with a view to securing a party advantage in the representation. Mr. CHATFIELD urged that the last appor. tionment should stand, or we ought to revise it throughout. In that event, perhaps, both these counties might lose the member, and Clinton get it-for we had a right to take into consideration an increase from natural causes, as well as an increase by legislative act. Mr. CROOKER insisted that we were bound to remedy existing inequalities, and especially where such inequalities were glaring and were so upon the census itself. The census showed that Wyoming now had some 2500 greater population then Genessee; and she was justly entitled to the two members. Mr. RICHMOND urged the injustice of robbing Genesee of a member on the strength of an addition to Wyoming of a population that had been taken into the account in apportioning members to Allegany. Mr. STETSON insisted that Clinton, by natural increase since the census, had a larger fraction than either Wyoming or Genessee; and he moved to give Clinton two and Genessee one member. Lost. Mr. KENNEDY thought, if Wyoming was to gain a member at the expense of any county, it should be at the expense of Allegany. Mr. A. W. YOUNG replied that Allegany had still enough to entitle her to two. The amendment of Mr. YOUNG was negatived as follows: AYES-Messrs. F. F. Backus, Bergen, Brundage, Burr, Chamberlain, Crooker, Dana, Danforth, Dorlon, Morris, Murphy, Patterson, Penniman, Swackhamer, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, Young-17. NOES-Messrs. Ayrault, H. Backus, Bascom, Bow. dish, Br yton, Brown,! ambreleng, D D. ( ampbell, R. Campbcll jr, Cantee, Chatfield, Clark, Clyde, Coniely, Cornell, Cuddeback, Dubois, Flanders, Gardner, Geohard, Harrison, Hart, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A Huntington, E. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Kemble, Kennedy, Kirkland. Loomis, Marvin, Maxwell, Miller, Nellis, Nicholas, O'Conor, Parish, Powers, President, Richmond, Riker, Russell, St. Joh.n, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Smith, E. Spencer, W. H. Spencer, Stanton, Stet-on, Stow, Taft, Tapgart, W. Taylor, Townsend, Tuthill, Warren, White, Willard, Witbeck, Wood, Yawger, Youngs-69.. Mr. PATTERSON moved to amend so that the counties should be divided into districts of as compact form as may be. This was debated by Messrs. LOOMIS, PAT. TERSON, STETSON and PERKINS and a. mended so as to add the word " convenient," and agreed to. The 7th section was then agreed to. The 9th section (in relation to the pay of mem. bers) was then read. Mr. CROOKER moved to strike out that por. tion which gives the Speaker of the Assembly an additional compensation. This was briefly debated by Messrs. CROOK. ER, KIRKLAND, WORDEN, PATTERSON, W..TAYLOR, CHATFIELD, and BROWN, and rejected. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN moved to adjourn. Lost. Mr. PERKINS moved an amendment limiting the session of the legislature to 100 days,instead of the section as it now stands-($3 a day, but the aggregate not to exceed $300.) Lost. Mr. BROWN moved to strike out that por. tion which declares that a member of the legis. lature shall receive no pay during his absence from the legislature; but before taking the question he moved to adjourn, which was agreed to. Adj. to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. FRIDAY, JULY 31. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. McDONOUGH. OFFICIAL RETURNS. The PRESIDENT announced that he had re. ceived numerous returns from district attorneys, county clerks, and masters and examiners in chancery, in answer to resolutions of the Convention. They had come to hand since the abstract was prepared by the committee of fiveand now awaited the disposition of the Convention. After some conversation, in which Messrs. MURPHY, J. J. TAYLOR, KIRKLAND, and F. F. BACKUS took part, they were referred to the committee of five, to be abstracted. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMINT. The Convention resumed the consideration of the report of the committee of the whole, of the Article reported from committee No. One. The pending question was on the motion of Mr BROWN, to strike out the amendment to the 9th section, made in committee of the whole, to deprive members of their compensation when not actually present. Mr. BROWN pointed out the vast disproportion between the compensation of members of the legislature and public officers, the latter also performing their duties at home, while our law. makers were taken from their homes and business. If a member should go home for a day or two to look to his family and business, he saw no good reason why they should enter into a mean and small account with some officer of the legislature to deduct the miserable compensation of three dollars a day. If it was designed to make members attend punctually, who were disposed to take their pleasure, it would fail of its object; for all they would have to do would be to attend and answer to their names once, and they would be entitled to their compensation. The result.would be, therefore, that.the deduction would be made from the compensation of the hard woiking, useful members, who might go home for a day to attend to their domestic concerns, or to recruit their strength 364 from the effects of their constant public labors. positions; but he thought this state should not He was willing to record his name in favor of require men to injure themselves by their servi. an increase of the per diem of members of the ces to the public. legislature, rather than a diminution, especially Mr. KIRKLAND was disposed to treat the when clerks of courts and other officers, had members of the legislature in this matter with been receiving so much larger an amount. He the confidence to which they were entitled as thought this great state ought to pay a just and representatives of the people, and not to encum. liberal compensation to the saw-makers, other her the constitution with paltry details of dol. wise the whole business would be thrown into lars and cents. He intended, at the proper the hands of the wealthy, or those who might time, to offer the following as a substitute for consent to come here for sinister objects. the whole section: Mr. BRUCE differed from the gentleman from The compensation of members of the Senate and Orange. this state had never been in want of Assembly shall be fixed by law. After being sn fixed, it legislators since the adoption of the constitution shall not be altered so as to increase the compensation of 1821. A large portion of the legislative bo. of the members of the legislature by which the law dy were farmers, who came here in the winter fixing the said compensation shall be passed. when they had but lithe to do at home, and who Mr LOOMIS was disposed to approve of werethencontentwitha perdiem of threedollars. such a provision. It was similar to one which Perhaps professional men, lawyers and others, had been suggested in committee of the whole. like the gentleman from Orange, might not be He thought it should be left to the legislature, satisfied, but the majority were. And with re. with proper and respectful restraints and limi. spect to the high salaries alluded to, the people tations. had long been crying out against those abuses, Mr. W. TAYLOR followed in favor of leav. and demanding a diminution of those perqui. ing the constitution as it now was. sites of office. The people would not consent Mr. NICHOLAS said after the sensible and to have the compensation of members of the le. just view taken of this subject by several gen. gislature increased beyond a reasonable amount, tlemen who have addressed the Convention this merely because other officers received too much. morning, it may be unnecessary for him to en. Mr. WORDEN explained the circumstances large upon what has been said, but lie rose to under which the provision was adopted, and say that if the gentleman from Orange (Mr. went on to contend that the compensation given BROWN) was disposed to withdraw his amend. was entirely inadequate. He alluded to the ment he Mi. N. would be glad to renew his, to practice in England of paying nothing to mem- fix the maximum per diem pay of members at bers of Parliament, but who often spent from $3 and then leave the whole matter as it now is ~15,000 to ~30,000 in contesting an election to in the constitution As to the provision, pre. obtain their seats. The consequence was that venting members from receiving pa.y should none but the wealthy could obtain a seat in the they be called home by the sickness of their fa. British Parliament. That system, however, mily, or any domestic calamity, he Mr. N. had would not answer in a free country like this. He always disapproved of it. A man of integrity describedthe labors which members of the legis- will not intermit his attention to his official dulature underwent, and trusted they would come ties without good and sufficient reasons; but back to the custom heretofore in use, and leave when he is required by circumstances beyond this subject to the good sense of the legislature. his control to incur the expense of a journey There were, however, evils arising out of absen- home, and with the permission of the body of teeism, one of which was the reconsidering of which he is a member, he should not be subjectquestions which had been decided in the absence ed to an abatement of his pay on account of his f gentlemen, on their return. He thought eve- absence. If the people will send men of loose ry gentleman who accepted a seat here, should morals here, they will evade this restriction; if attend to the duties which his position devolved you impose it, they will always feign excuses to upon him; but it was not always done, and va- bring themselves within the exception of sickrious propositions were made to correct the evil, ness. No one day's pay will be withheld from between which the one adopted was a comprom. such men, and the only effect of the provision ise. He went on to pass a high encomium on will be to do injustice to honest representatives, the legislature of the state, which he said had and to perpetuate a temptation to men wanting been favorably compared with the legislative integrity to evade the constitution. bodies of Europe as well as of our own states Mr. SALISBURY had not heard complaints and Union, and denied thdt it was entitled to among the people that the pay of members the censure which had been cast upon it. of the legislature was too much. But he had Mr. SWACKHAMER explained -a resolution heard complaints that they were spending too which he offered some days ago, and went on much time in discussing subjects which had no to contend that it was unreasonable to expect relation to their duties. and in making political members to remain here day after day to the capital. The unnecessary length of the sessions neglect of their families and domestic concerns, would be avoided perhaps, when the legislaand to deduct a few dollars from their pay if ture should be relieved from much ot the small they should absent themselves for a short time matters of legislation which now devolve upon for such a, purpose. lIe should be even willing them. The pay he believed to be very fair com. to increase the pay of members. for no man pensation. and if three dollars could obtain lal. came here and went away without sustaining ent equal to that in Congress, at $S, or in the loss in his pecuniary concerns. There was, Parliament of Great Britain, as the gentleman however, a laudable ambitioxn which would from Ontario (Mr. Woaszw) had said, he could prompt some of them to maske sarifii4e for such, not go for mrwia it. He thought the amend. 365 meat offered by that gentleman, and adopted, a very good one, and should vote to sustain it, believing it desirable, if possible, to secure attention to public duty by public servants. Mr. VAN SCHOONHOVEN followed in favor of striking out. Mr. TAGGALRT continued the debate, in favor of striking out the amendment of Mr. WonDEN. Mr. A. W. YOUNG appealed to the Convention against spending too much time in debate. Complaints were coming in thicker and faster,, that so little progress was made. Mr. E. SPENCER believed the subject had been discussed long enough; and hoped the question would be taken. Mr. DANFORTH was in favor of limiting the session to 90 days, which he believed was a period of a sufficient length for all practical purposes. But he hoped the Convention would, with a great degree of unanimity, agree to strike out the obroxious provision that men who come here upon their honor should be called to ac. count for every hour that they might find it necessary to be absent from the House. Nor did he believe it just that the pay should be deducted when they were absent at their homes for a few days during the session. Mr. KENNEDY. And paying for board here at the same time. Mr. SALISBURY would apply the same rule to the public officers that individuals did to their agents. No one would pay their agent their regular per diem allowance while he was riding a. bout the country, to New York or Boston. He demanded the ayes and noes. Mr. SIMMONS concluded the discussion, in favor of retaining the present section, when the motion of Mr. BROWN was agreed to-ayes 81, nays 22, as follows:AVES-Messrs. Angel, Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, Bergen, Bouck, Bowdish, Brayton, Brown, Bull, Cambreleng, D D Campbell, It. Campbell, jr., Candee, Chamberlain, Chatfield, Clark, Clyde, Conely, Cook, Cornell, Crooker, tuddeback, Danforth, Dorlon, Forsyth, Gebhard, Harrison, Hotchkiss, Hunt, Hunter, A. Huntingtoft, E. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jones, Jordan, Kemble, Kennedy, Kernan, Kingsley, Klrklini, McNeill, McNitt, Marvin, Maxwell, Miller, Morris, Murphy, Nellis, Nicholas, Nicoll, O'Conor, Parish, Perkins, Powers, Rhoades, Richmond, Riker, Russell, bears, Shaw, Sheldon, Shepard, Smith, E. Spencer, W. H. Spencer, Stephens, tetson, Strong, SwackhamerTageart, J J. Taylor, W..Taylor, Tuthill, Vache, Vanschoonhoven, Warren, White, Wood, Young-8l. NAYS-Messrs. Archer, Bascom, lurr, Dana, Dodd, Duooi3, Flanders,Gardner, Harris, Patterson, St.John, Salisbury, Simmons, Stanton, Taft, Tallmadge, Townsend, Waterbury, Willard, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Youngs- 22. Mr. MURPHY moved to strike out all the section down to the word " route," and insert:" The members ot the legislature shall receive for their service, acomp-nsation to be ascertained by law, and p id out of the public treasury. But no increase of compensation shall take effect during the year in which it shall have been made, nor shall any law be pas.ed increasing the compensation of the members of the legislature beyond the sum of three doliars per day ") Mr. SWACKHAMER moved to amend the amendment, by adding:t Nor shall any session of the legislature extend beyond the period of ninety days, except in cases of war) aIsurrecton, or iavasioa." Mr. FORSYTH moved the previous question, and it was seconded by a vote of 42 to 21, which being less than a quorum, the vote was again taken, and 49 voted in the affirmative and 23 in the negative. The main question was then ordered, and the yeas and nays taken on Mr. SWACKHAMER'S amendment, and resulted, yeas 52, nays 52, as follows:AYES-Messrs. Ayrault, F. F. Backus, Bergen, Burr, Cambreleng, D. D. Campbell, K. Campbell jr., Candee, Clark, CooK, Dana, Danftorth Dodd, Dorlon, Dubois, Gardner, Harrison, Hotclkiss, Hunter, A. Huntington, Jordan, Kernan, Kingsley, McNeil, McNitt, Maxwell, Morris, Powers Richmond, hiker, Russeil, Salisbury, Sears, Shaw, bheldon, Simmons, E. Spencer, Stanton, Stetson, Strong, Swackhamer, Taft, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, Townsend, Vache, White, Willard, Wood, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Youngs-62. NOEs —;Vessrs. Angel, H. Backus. Bascom, Bouck, Bowdish, Brayton, Brown, Bull, Chamberlain, Chatfield, Conely, Cornell, Crooker, Cuddeback, Flanders, Forsyth, Gebhard, Harris, Hart, Hunt, b. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jones, Kemble, hennedy, Kirkland, Loomis, Marvin, Miller, Murphy, Nellis, Nicholas, Nicoll, O'Conor, Parish, Patterson, Perkins, Prtsident, Khoades, St. John, Shepard, Stepheis, Taggart, W. Taylor, 'lilden, Tuthill, Van Schoonhovea, Warren, Waterbury, Worden, Young-62. So the amendment was lost. The question then recurred on Mr. MURPHY'S amendment, and it was lost, ayes 45, noes 63, as follows: AYES-Messrs. Angel. F F. Backus, H. Backus,Bas com, Bouck, Bowdisli, Brown, Brundgge, Bull, Chamberlain, Chatfield, Cone ly, Cornell, Crooker, Cuddeback, Flanders, Gebhard, Hart, Hunt, Jones, Kemble, Kennedy, Loomis, Marvin, Morris, Murphy, Nicholas, Nicoll, O'Conor, Parish, Perkins, President, Rhoades, Shepard, Smi h, Stephens, Stow, Tallmadge, W. Taylor, Tilden, Tuthill, Van Schoonhoven, Warren, Worden, Young-45. NOES —vessrs. Ayrault, Bergen, Brayton, Bruce, Burr, Cambreleng, D D Campbell, R. Campbell, jr Candee, Clark, Clyde, Cook, Dana, Dantorth, Dodd, Dorlon, Dubois, Gardner, Harris, Harrison, HotchKisst Hunter, A. Huntington, E. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, Jordan, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland, McNeil,McNitt, Maxwell, Miller, Nellis, Patterson, Powers,* Richmond, Riker, Russell, St. John, Sears, Shaw, Sheldon, Simmons, E Spencer, Stanton, Stetson, Strong, Swackhamer, Taft, Taggart, J. J. Taylor, Townsend, Vache, Waterbury, White, Willard, Wood, W. B. Wright, Yawger, Youngs-63. Mr. WORDEN then moved to amend by adding after the word allowance, the following:"Unless two-thirds of all the members elected shall assent to the continuance of the session beyond the period of 100 days." Mr. W. advocated his amendment. He con. tended that freedom of debate in the legislature had ever been a fundamental principle in free governments, and that civil liberty and personal rights were mainly dependent upon it. And it was necessary that it should be preserved, as a safeguard against the encroachments of executive power. Mr. HARRIS replied. He said the provision did not require the legislature to terminate its session; it merely said that the members of the legislature should not receive pay for any pe. riod beyond one hundred days. If any emergency, should arise, he trusted the legislature would be patriotic enough to continue in session even though they received no pay. If they would not remain under such circumstances, they might depend upon it the country would derive no great good by any sittings ot such a 366 legislature, who considered their three dollars a AYES-Messrs. Bascom, Bergen, Brown, Caridee, day of more importance than the interests of Gardner, Hunt, Hunter, Kemble, Marvin, Murphy, dNicoll O'Conor, Russell, Simmons, Smith, StowTag. the country. gart, Vache, White-19. Mr. RICHMOND and PERKINS both enter- NAYs-Messrs Ayrault, F..F. Backus, H. Backus, ed into the discussion at some length. Baker, Bouck, Hrayton,lsruce,Brundag-, hurr,CambreMr. MORRIS said he was opposed to long leng, D I. Campbell,LC Campbell,jr.,Clharnberlamln,Chat. field,Clark,Clyde, Conely,cook,':ornell,!rooker, Cudsessions, at the same time that he was for giving deback. Dana, Danforth, Uodd, Dubois, Flaiders, Geba fair compensation, and his votes had been hard, Harris, Harrison, Hart, Hotchkiss, A Huhltinggiven with a view to shorten the sessions with- ton, E. Huntingtoi, Hutchinson, ctyde, Jones, Jordan, out throwing an imputation inadvance upon the Kennedy, Kernan, Kingsley, Kirkland, Loois, icNeil, McNitt, Malhxwell, IVliller, iMorri5, Nellis, Nicholas, legislature. As the importance of leaving the Parish, Patterson, Perkins, Powers, President, Kich. sessions without limit, to prevent executive mond, liker, Huggles, St John Salisbury, -haw, Shelusurpations, Mr. M. supposed the constitution don, Shepard, E Spencer, Stanton, -tephns, Stetson, was a check upon such usurpations, and the rong, Swackhamer, af, Taullmadge, J J Tnylor, was a check upon such usurpations, and the W. Tajlor, Townsend, Tuthil, Van.ehocnh:bvn, remedy of impeachment the proper one. They Warren, Waterbury, Willard, Wood,Worden, Yawger, should not be limited in time when engaged in Young, Youngs-8,. impeachment. [A remark here from somegen- The tenth section was then adopted. tleman near Mr. M. led him to say.] If the The eleventh section, Mr. SIMMONS moved legislature were suspected of being corrupt e- to amend by striking out '"judicial," in the 2nd nough to impeach the Governor every year for line, and inserting " civil"-so that it should the sake of getting their three dollars a day, in read:-" No person being a member of congress God's name abolish the legislature. or holding any judicial or military office under Mr. WORDEN remarked that if the legisla- the U. S., shall hold a seat in the legislature." ture would stay here for the sake of three dol- He desired to make it conform to the latter lars a day, they might impeach the Governor to clause of the section which read thus.make an excuse for it. t"And if any person shall, after his election as a Mr. MORRIS replied that he did not believe, member of the legislature, be elected to congress, or under the single district system, that any such appointed to any office, civil or military, under the go results were to be apprehended. Nor did he nment of the United States, his acceptance thereof believe that these stringent provisions would be r S. required. Still, they had been asked for, and he Mr RUSSELL:-That would exclude postshould vote for them in what he regarded as the masters next best shape he could get. He wanted,how- Mr. SIMMONSwas aware of that. ever, an amendment, so as to exceptcases when Mr. CHATFIELD said the intention was to the legislature should be engaged in proceedings pr a member being appointed after his elec for impeachment. He moved that amendment tion to an office under the U. S. government,and Mr. WORDeN withdrew his proposition. thus giving that government a control over the Mr. DODD moved the previous question, and legislature in the appointment of U. S. senators there was a second, &c., and for instance-but not to prevent the people from The question was put on Mr.MoRRIs' amend- electing a member, knowing him to hold a civil ment and it was adopted, 44 to 35. office under the U. S. The question, as amended, was then adopted, Mr. SIMMONS' amendment was lost. ayes 68, noes 35. Mr. CONELY moved to amend to exclude all holding offices under the U. S. except postmas-AYES-Messrs. Ayrault, F. F. Backus, H. Backus, Loffices der the xce tmas Brayton, Bruce, Bull, Burr, Cambreleng, D. D. Camp-ers os belt, K Campbell, jr, Candee, Clark, Clyde, Cook, The eleventh section was agreed to. Cuddeback, )ana, Danforth, Dodd, Dorlon, Dubois, Mr. SMITH moved to amend the twelfth secGardner, Harris, Harrison, Hotchkiss,Hunter, A Hunttion, so as to provide that the first election un iogtou, E. Huntington, Hutchinson, Hyde, KernIn, der this constitution for me rs of the lei. Kingsley, McNeil, McNitt, Maxwell, Miller, Mloris,der this constitution for members of the legislaNellis, iicholas,Nicoll, Powers, Richmond, Riker, ture be held in October instead of November. Ruggles, Russell, -t. John, Salisbuiry, Shaw, She:don, Lost. Simrnmons, E. Spencer, Stanton, Stetson, strong, wack- Section fifteen was then agreed to. hamer, Taft, Taggart, Tallmadge, J. J. Taylor, W. Tay!or, Townsend, WatPrbury, white, WillardWood, Mr. SMITH moved a reconsideration of the W B. Wrieht, Yawger, Young, Yoings-68. vote in regard to the Chenango district. Table NOES-vlessrs. Bascom, BouciK, brown, Brundage, Chamberlain, Chatfield, Conely, Cornell, Crooker, AFTERNOON SESSION. Flanders, Gebhard, Har., Hunt, Jones, Jordan, Kernble, Kennedy, Kirkland. Loomis, Marvin, Murphy, O'- Mr. STETSON submitted a proposition, in Ctonor, Parish, Patterson, Perkins, President, Khoades, relation to fractional representation, to add the Se:rs, Shepard, Smith, Stow, Tuthill, Van Schoonho folwing, as a new section to the report of ven, Warren} Worden-35. '*ollolwing, as a new section, to the report of committee number one:Mr. CROOKER moved a reconsideration of this vote. Table.. The first part of section seven shall be construed Mr. SWACKHAMER also moved a recon- so that members of the Assembly shall be apportioned as-follows:-The aggregate r pmesentative populaition sideration of the vote on the ninety days' limita- of the stale shall be divided by one hundred and twention. Table. ty eight, and the quotient shall be a ratio upon which The tenth section being now read, one member shall be apportioned to each county of the Mr. WHITE moved to amend by striking out state; but the residue of the members, after thit, shall Mr. WHITEhe pportioned so that the fraction of a smaller coun" or to the Senate of the U. S."-(the effect of ty shall alwtys be entitled to a member in preference which would be to leave members of the legis- to the number equal to the first ratio in a larger counlature eligible to the U. S. Senate.) ty, whenever the fraction ot the smaller county is larger in proportion to its whole representative popu. The amendment was negatived, ayes 19, noes lltion, than the fraction of the larger county be to its 85, as follows;- whole representative population, if the whole number 367 of the remainder of members were continued to be ap. The article relating to the Legislative Departportioned according to said first ratio. ment, as finally adopted, is as foMows Mr. WORDEN explained his understanding ARTICLE I of the section to be that Clinton, for instance, SzclTon 1. The legislative power of this state shall with one member and a fraction of 9000, would be vested in a Senate and Assembly. have an additional member on that fraction, in 2. The Senate shill consist of thirty-two members, preference to New York with sixteen members and the Senators shall be chosen for two years. The Assembly shall consist of one hundred anti twentyand a fraction of 10,000. eight members, who shall bhe annually elected. Mr. STETSON said the operation of the sec- ubstitute the following for section 5 tion would be something like that-and went in- Substtute the following for section 5: to an exp lanation somewhat in detail His in- 6 6. The state shall be divided into thirty two distoanexplanation somewhat indetail isin tricts, to be called senate districts, each of which shal tention was to give the country the benefit of an choose one senator The districts shall be numbered accumulation of fractions, of which the city of Irom one to thirty-two inclusive. New York now hal the benefit to the disadvan- District No. I shall consist of the counties of Riche of t. mond, suffolk and Queens tage of the country. District No. 2 shall consist of the county of Kings. Mr. JONES sympathized with the gentleman Districts Nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 shall consist of the city from Clinton, on account of the unfortunate po- and county of New York; and the board of supervi. sition of Clinton. srs of said city and county shall, on or before the it i ETn ON: Wof C i. first day of May, 1847, divide the city and county into Mr. STETSON: We do not ask sympahy.- he number of senate districts to which it is entitled; We shall have it next time, as a right. as near as may be of an equal number of inhabitants, Mr. JONES would neverthless extend his sym. 'f contiguous territory and of compact form. The pathy. Clinton was no doubt unfortunate; but board of supervisors when they shall have completed such division, shall cause certificates thereof, ltating no doubt upon the next census, her fraction the number and boundaries of each district and the would be large enough to secure her another population thereof, to be filed in the office of the Sec. member. retary of State and of the clerk of said city and county. Mr. STETSON: That takes off the point of District No. 7 shall consist of the counties of West. chester, Putnam and Rockland. the sympathy. District No. S shall consist of the counties of Dutch. Mr. JONES hoped the gentleman's anticipa- ess and Columbia. tions would be realized-and went on to say District No. 9 shall consist of the counties of Orange and Sullivan. that he listened to the gentleman's speech at- Distrct No. 10 shall consist of the crunties of Ulster tentively, but unfortunately he had not been a- and Greene. ble to understand it. He could not say of the District No. 11 shallconsist of the counties of Albagentleman's statistics, what had been said of ny and Schenectady. statistics in general, that they were after all District o. 2 shall consist of the county of Rensse. nothing but fictions told in numerals, for it would District No. 13 shall consist of the counties of Washnot be decorous to say so. But it was a suffi. ington and Saratoga cient answer to them to say that if New York District No. 14 shall consist OI toe counties of War. ren. Essex and Clinton had one eighth of the representation in the As- District No. 15 shall consist ot the counties of St. sembly, she had also one eighth of the represen- Lawrence and Franklin. tative population of the state. District No. 16 shall consist ot toe counties of HerMr. WORDEN remarked that there were kimer, Hamilton, Fulton and Montgomeiy. District No. 17 shall consist of the counties of Schonone so blind as those who would not see-and harie and Orsego. went on to explain his idea of the operation of District No. 18 shall consist ot the counties of Delathe rule. ware and Chenango. Mr. BROWN was satisfied the proposition de. District No. 19 shall consist of the county of Oneida. District No. 20 shaUl consist of the counties of Madiserved all consideration-but it was a complica- son and Oswego. ted one, and ought to be printed before being District No. 21 shall consist of the counties of Jefacted on. He suggested that it be postponed un- ferson and Lewis. til to-morrow and printed. District No. 2a shall consist of tne county of OnonThe section was ordered to be printed. District No. 23 shall consist of the counties of CortMr. W. TAYLOR offered the following addi. land, Broome and Tioga. tional section-which he said was a section of District No. 24 shall consist of the counties of Cayuthe old constitution, with the words "and legis- ga and Wayne. the old constitution, with the words and legs District No. 25 shall consist ot the counties of Tomplative term" added-to prevent any misconstruc- kins, Seneca and Yates. tion of the political year: District No 26 shall consist of the counties of Stec. ~ 16. The political year and legislative term shall be- Diha consist of the cunt of Monroe il on the first day of January; and the legislature District No. 27 shall consist of the counties of Monroe. District No. 29 shall consist of the counties of Orshall every year assemble on the first Tuesday In Jan leans, Genesee and Niagara. uary, unless a different day shall be appoited by law. District No. 29 shall consist of the counties of OntaMr. CROOKER moved to strike out " unless rio and Livingston. a different day shall be appointed bylaw." Bet-District No 3 shall consist of the counties of Alleter have it daysthaln bepponte agany and Wyoming ter have it fixed, than fluctuating. District No 91 shall consist of the county of Erie. Mr. SHEPARD suggested that some pesti- District No. 32 shall consist of the counties of Chaulence might make it necessary to change the tauque and Cattaraugus. place and time of holding the legislature. 6. An enumeration of the inhabitants of the state shall be taken under the direction of the legislature in Mr. CROOKER did not see how the legisla- the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty-five, and ture would foresee when the pestilence was to at the end of every ten years thereafter; and the said come districts shall he so altered by the legislature at the Mr. CROOCER'S motion was lost, and Mr.TAY first session after the return of every enumeration that Mr.each senate district shall contain, as nearly as may LOR'S section adopted. be, an equal number of inhabitants, excluding aliens, Mr. W. TAYLOR then moved that the article and persons of color not taxed; and shall remain unas perfected, be printed-which was agreed to. altered until the return of another enumeration, amd 868 sitll at all times consist of contiguous territory, and no county shall be divided in the formation of a senate district, except such county shall be equitably entitled to two or more senators. ~ 7. The members of the assembly shall be apportioned among the several counties of this state, by the legislature, as nearly as may be, according to the number of their resplective inhabitants, excluding aliens, and persons of color not taxed, and shall be chosen by single districts. The several boards of supervisors in such counties of this state, as are now entitled to more than one metmber of assembly, shall assemble on the first Tuesnay of January next, arid divide th ir respective coun. ties into as embly districts equal to the number of members of assembly to which such counties are now severally entitled by law, and shall cause to be filed in the offices of the secretary of?tate and the clerk of their respective counties, a description of such assembly distr cts, specifying the number of each district and the population thereof, according to the last state enumeration, as ne r as can be ascertained. Each assembly district shall contain as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants, excluding aliens and persons of color not taxed, -.-nd shall consist of contigious and convenient territory, but no town shall be divided in the formation of assembly districts. ~ 8. The legislat ure,at its first session after the return of every enumeration, shall re-apportion the members of assembly among the several counties of this state, in manner afores-id, and the board of supervisors in such countie as may be entitled, under such re-a pportionmeut, to more than one member, shall assemble at such time as the legislature making such re-apportionment shall prescr be, and divide such counties into assembly districts in the manner herein drected, and the app rtionment and districts so to be made, shall remain unaltered until another enumeration shall be taken under the provisions of the piecediug section. Every county heretofore established and separately organized, except the county of Hamilton shall always be entitled to one member of the assembly, and no new county shall hereafter be erected, unless its population shall entitle it to a member. The county of Hamilton shall elect with Fulton, until the population of Hamilton shall, according to the ratio, be entitled to a member. ~9. The members of the legislature shall receive for their services a sum not exceeding three dollars a day from the commencement of the session; but such pay shall not exceed in the aggregate three hundred dollars for per diem allowance, except in cases of impeachment. The limitation Hs to the aggregate compensation shall not take effect until 1848 When convened in extra session by the Governor, they shall receive $3 per day. They shall also receive the sum of one dollar for every ten miles they shall travel, in going to and returning from their place of meeting on the mot usual route The Speaker of the Assembly shall. in virtue of his office, receive an additional compensation equal to one-third of his per diem as member. ~ 10. No member of the legislature sh,ll reccive any civil appointment within this state, or to the;enate of the United Stateafrom the Governor, the Governor and Senate, or from the legislature, during the teim for which he shall have been elected. I 1. No person, being a member of congress, or holding any judicial or military office under the United btates, shall hoid a seat in the legislature And if any person shall, after his election as a member of the lelislature, be elected to congress, or appointed to any office, civil or military, under the government of the United StAtes, his acceptance thereof shall vacate his seat. Substitute for sections 15 and 16, so far as re. lates to Senators and members of Assembly, the following:~ 16. The first election of Senators and members of Assembly, pursuant to the provisions of this Constitution shall be held on the Tuesday succeeding the first Monday of November, one thousand eight hundred and forty seven; and all tubsequent elections shall be held on the Tuesday succeeding the first Monday of November in each year, unless otherwise directed by the legislature. Tine senators and members of Assembly who may be in office on the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and forty-sevep, shall hold their offices until the thirty-first day of December fol. lowing, and.no longer. ~ 16. The politicalyear and legislative term shall be-. gin on thg first day of January; and the legislature shIll every year assemble on the first Tuesday in Jantary, unless a different day shall be appointed by law. APPOINTMENT OR ELECTION of STATE OFFICERS. On motion of Mr. W. TAYLOR, the commit. tee of the whole, Mr. WORDEN in the chair, took up the report of committee No. Six (Mr. CHATFIELD'S), on the appointment or election of all officers whose powers and duties are not local, &c. The first section was read, as follows:~ The Secretary of State, Comptroller, Treasurer and Attorney General shall oe chosen by the people at an annual general election, and shall hold their offices for two years. The Secretary of State and Comptroller shall receive an annual salary of two thousand and five hundred dollars; the Treasurer shall receive an annual salary ofOpne thousand five hundred dollars; and tJ Attorney General shall receive an annual salary o!wo thousand dollars; but he shall not receive any other or further fees, perquisites or compensation for any services performed by him as Attorney General. Mr. KENNEDY moved to amend as follows: Strike out from the 4th line, after the word "years," and insert 1 and shall receive an annual salary, to he prescribed by law, which shall not be altered during their respective terms of office." Mr.CHATFIELD was not prepared to let this go by default. He went on to point out the important changes proposed it. the report. The committee proposed first to give the election of these officers to the people. On that point he anticipated little, if any, objection. Next they proposed to shorten the term of these officers; and chiefly with a view that they might come in and go out with the Executive-and this because they were to some extent cabinet officers, and it was due to the Executive that he should have a cabinet who accorded with him in regard to measures, that his administration might be harmonious. The committee also thought it impor. tant that the constituent body should, as often as once in two years, have an opportunity of passing upon the acts of these officers. Mr. C. went on to explain and define the fixing of the salaries of these officers in the constitution-that they might not be the subject of change, with changes of party, and might not be a matter of consideration in their election. The committee had fixed them at the present salaries-believ. ing that they were not too high. As to the At. torney General, the committee thought $2000, cutting off extra compensation. would not be too high, and that the state would be the gainer at that. Now the salary was $1000, together with a large amount of fees and perquisites, much of which did not go upon. the Comptroller's books. The present incumbent had receiv. ed somewhere in the neighborhood of $4000, to which would be added compensation for some two months' services recently at Auburn. Mr. SIMMONS thought it would not look well to put the Governor's salary in the power of the legislature, and fix those of his cabinet in the constitution. He should prefer to see all these salaries left to the legislature, or all fixed in the Constitution. Mr. RICHMOND remarked that we were laying the foundation for a large number of offices, and this principle seemed thus far to have been settled, that if we left these salaries to be fixed by the legislature we should also prohibit 369 any change in them to take effect upon an in- could lay their hands on them, if the legislature, eumbent. Supposing this to be the judgment of under the influence of those interested, should the Convention-we should then throw upon a give too high salaries. But he hoped we should single legislature the power and duty of fixing fix them in the constitution; antd he warned the salaries of all your judges, state officers, gentlemen that if we placed these salaries be. clerks of courts, &c. &c. It was easy to see yond the reach of the people for long terms, what a lobby this would bring to bear upon the that they never would receive such a constilegjslature-and how utterly this who!e matter tution. of salaries might be placed beyond the reach of On motion of Mr. CHAMBERLAIN, the the people, for a long term of years. He trust- committee rose and reported progress, and the ed if we did not fix salaries in the constitution, Convention we should at least place them where the people Adjourned to 9 o'lock to-morrow morning. SATURDAY, AUGUST 1. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. McDoNouGH. STATE OFFICERS. Mr PERKINS presented a minority report from committee number six. He said the report exhibited his own views, for he did not claim that they were the views of any other member of the committee, though in some particulars others of the committee agreed with him in some of his differences from the report of the majority. He read the report as follows:ARTICLE -. 1 I. An Attorney General shall be elected at the times and places of choosing the Governor, and shall hold his office for the same term. ~ 2. The Treasurer shall be appointed annually, on the first Tuesday in February, by the open vivavoce vote of the Legislature, and by a majority of all the votes cast. ~ 3. There shall be elected, by plurality of votes, at the times and places of choosing Members of Assembly, a secretary of State, a Conptroller, a State Engineer and Surveyor, three Canal Commissioners, and three Inspectors of State Prisons. Under their first election, they shall respectively hold their offices for the term prescribed in the next section of this article, and thereafter for three years respectively. ~ 4. Of the officers first elected under the preceding section, the State Engineer and Surveyor sh ill hold his office for one year, the Comptroller for two yea s, and the secretary of State for three years he Csnal Commissioners and Inspector of State Prisons having the greatest number oi votes shall hold their offices for three years; those having the next greatest number of votes shall hold their offices for two years; and the others for one year. In case of an equality in the number of votes for either of the offices of Commissioner or Inspec'or, who shall be first elected, the term of their office shall be determined by Ic: ~ 6. In case there shall be an equality in the number ot votes for any officer to be elected under this article, so that there shall be no choice; or in case of the death, lesignation, removal or other disability of either of the officers mentioned in the third section of this article, the Legislature shall, by open nomination and vote, choose a person to Derform the duties of the office for the term, or residue of the unexpired term, as the case may be 6. The Lieut. Governor, Speaker of the Assembly, Secretary of state, Comptroller, Treasurer, ttorney General, and State Engineer and Surveyor, shall be the Commissioners of the Land Office. The Lieut. Governor, Secretary of State, Comptroller, ' rea-urer and Attorney General, shall be the Commissioners of the Canal Fund The Canal Board shall consist of the Commissioners of the C;nal Fund, the State Engineer and Surveyor, and the Canal Commissioners. ~ 7. All offic-rs the manner of whose appointment is not prescribed by Ibis Constitution, shall be chosen or appo;nted as shall be prescribed by the law existing at the time of their appointment. ~ 8. Every officer having a stated salary shall account 24 for and pay to the Treasurer of the State all perquisites of office, he may receive. 9. All officers having salaries (except Judicial offi. cers) shill at stated times receive for their services a compensation which shall not be increased or diminished during the term for which they shall h:ive been elected. But this sh1ll nit be construed to prevent the passage of laws at any time to regulate the compensation of future incumbents of office. ~ 1o. All provisions of law authorizing the appointment of Inspectors, Weighers and Measurers of merchandize, (except salt) are abrogated. BISHOP PERKINS. Mr. P. said the principal differences were that the Secretary of State, Comptroller, State Engineer and Surveyor, were by him proposed to be elected for three years, and they were to be classified so that one of them would be elected annually. The report of the majority proposed to elect them for two years, and all to go out at once. His report also proposed to give to these officers a salary which shall not be altered during the time for which they shall be elected; but the legislature may prescribe the compensation of future incumbents. These were the principal alterations, except that the Treasurer was to be appointed annually by the legislature. Having made some further explanations he moved that the report be committed to the committee of the whole having in charge the majority re. port, and that it be printed. Mr. CHATFIELD made some complaints which were not distinctly heard, that this report should be brought in at this time. He doubted if it could be now considered, and was under. stood to intimate that the gentleman from St. Lawrence had been wanting in respect to the committee. Mr. PERKINS said he was ever unfortunate in the expression of his difference of opinion from the chairman of the committee. Indeed, it seemed to be a matter of great disrespect for any gentleman of this Convention to venture to differ from him (Mr. CHATFIELD). When the report of the majority was agreed to, he assented to the report being made, though voting against some of its provisions in committee; and he had now felt it to be his duty to submit his views, as they differed from the majority.At an early day, he proposed, by resolution, something in the nature of a minority report, and that was deemed exceedingly disrespectful; and he received a lecture for that too. [Laugh. ter.] There was, on the part of the chairman of the committee, a strange sensitiveness, which 370 he could not understand. If there was no imputation on that gentleman or his actions-if, when there existed a mere difference of opinion, a member took that mode of bringing his views before the Convention-it seemed to him that, for a member to get up and complain of having been treated with disrespect, showed either a jealousy of other members, or a dyspeptic nervousness which could not endure a mere differ. enc- of opinion. Mr. P had taken the course which his judgment dictated to be the proper one to bring his views before the Convention.,He had exercised his right, which he was not at liberty to sacrifice to any jealousies, and while he remained a member of a committee which made a report of which he disapproved, he shoald not be deterred from presenting a counter report, and endeavoring to amend the one from which he dissented. He might perhaps have presented this report at an earlier day, although after the manner in which the gentleman (Mr. CHATFIELD) received any indication of a difference of opinion on the coming in of his report, he had finally determined to waive any further expression of his opinion, until the matter was und-r the consideration of the Convention. Mr. CHATFIELD hoped the gentleman from St. Lawrence would not understand him as say. ing that there had been any disrespect to him personally. If he did say that, he had said what he had not intended. All he had said was that the committee had not been treated with the respect to which they were entitled. Mr. C. proeeded at some length to point out the par. liamentary course which the gentleman from St. Lawrence should have pursued. I 'Mr. PERKINS responded and showed what course had been taken both by the majority and minority of the committee and reiterated the statement of his conviction that the offence committed was in daring to differ from the chairman of the committee, whose great sensitiveness was otherwise inexplicably mysterious. After some other observations the motion to print and refer was carried. JUDICIAL SYSTEM Mr. RUGGLES, from the committee on the judiciary, presented a report, which was read by the secretary, as follows: Sec. 1. The Assembly shall have the power of impeachment by a vote of the majority of all the members elected. The court for the trial ot impeachments shall be coinposetd of the president of the senate, the sena. tors, antd the judges of the court of appeals-the major part.1f whom may hold the court. On the trial of an impeachment against the Governor, the Lieut. Govern or shall not act as a member of the court. No judicial officer shall exercise his office after he shall have been impeached, until his acquital Before the trial of an impeachment, the members of the court shall take an oath or affirmation truly and impartially to try the im. smeaclmnet according to evidence, and no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present. Judgment i i cases of impeachlenut shall not extend further than to removal from office; but the party convicted shall be liable to indictment aud punishment according to law. t2. ' here shall be a court of appeals, composed of eight judges, of whom four shall be elected by the electors of the state for eight years, and four selected from the class of justices of the supreme court having the shortest time to serve. Provision shall be made by. law for designating one of the members elected as chief judge, and for selecting such justices of the supreme court from time to time, and for so classifying those ~eetOA tibt one shall be elected every second year. 3. There shall be a supreme court having the same jurisdiction in law and equity which the supreme court and court of chancery now have subject to regulation by law ~ 4. The state shall be divided into eight judicial districts, of which the city of New-York shall be onethe others to be bounded by county lines, and be compact and equal in population as nearly as may be.There sha I be four justices of the sulpreme court for each district, and as many more in the district cornmposed of the city of New-York as may from timrie to time be authorized by law, but not to exceed the number of justices in the other districts in proportion to their populatinn They shall be classified so that one of the justices of each district shall go out of office a, the end of every two years. After tie expira' ion of their terms tinder such classification, the term of their office shall be eight years. ~ 5. Any three of them may hold general terms of said court in any district, and one of them may hold special terms and circuit courts, and preside at the courts of oyer and terminer in any county. 6. They shtll severally at stated times receive for their services a compensation tobeestablished bv law, i hich shall not be diminished during their continuance in office. ~ 7. They shall not hold any other office or public trust. All votes for either of them for any elective office, (except that of ju-tice of the supreme court, or judge of ihe court oi appeals,) given by the legislature cr the people, shall be void. They shall not e