I I OHIO CONSTITUTIONAL CONTENTION. DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS VOLUME II. t I -5 R E P 0 R T OF THE ])EBATE AD PRO.CEEDINS I OF THE a I..;' 3.' e CONVENTION REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION 0F TH STATE OF 1850-51. J. V. SMITH Official Reporter to the Convention. ., _ _...,,, _... _.....~~~~~~~~~~~~1 COLUMBUS: S. MEDARY, PRINTER TO THE OONVENTION, 1851. FOR TEB OHI0. .,, @' i -, I A I A'.: - 3 0HIO CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION. REPORT OF DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS. V. SUfH, Reportcr. BY AUTHQRITY. S. !1EE)ARY, riuIer, CONVENTIO N CHAMBER, I CINCINNATI, OHIO, MONDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1850. FIFTY-THIRD DAY. , in the city of Cincinnati, pursuant to adjournrder by the President. Messes, Bart:ee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Pre ble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, CahillI Case of Hocking, Ciase of Licking, Chambers, Chaney Curry, Dorsey, E wing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Homes. Hootmarii, Horton, Humphre. ville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood Larsh, Lawrence, Larwll, Leech. Lidey, Loudonr, Mitchell Morehead, Morris,, MoCIoud. McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Patterson,Peclit, Perkius. Quigley, Rallney, Reemelin Riddle Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, cSmith'of Highland, Smith of Warren,. Smith of Wyandot Stebhias. -Stitwell, Stickney, Stidger, Taylor, Thompsonof SheIby, Townshenrd, Vance of Butler. Vance of (hamlpaigii. Warren. Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington, Mr. President. Abse-nt. Messrs, Andrews, Archbold,.Bennrett, Brown of Carroll, ('lark, Collings, Cook, Cutler, Ewart, Gillett, Gray, Harlan. Hitchcock of Cuyahoga Hitchcockli of Geauga, Holt., King, Leadbetter, Manon, Mason, Otis, Sawyer, Stantberry, Stanton, Struble, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Stark. Way,and, Williams. The President laid before the ConvTI ntion, the fol lowing communication from the Young Men's Mer cantile Ass ociation o'f Cincinna ti: 'RoOMS OF THE YOUNG MEN'S) MERCANT[ILE LIBRARY AssOCIATION. CINCINNATI, Dec-ember 3, 1l50) Compliments of the Board of Directors, who take great pleasure in tendering the hospitalil,iies of the YOUNG MEN'S MERCHANTILE L1BRARY ASSOCIATION, to the OHIO CO)NSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, during its ses sion in this city. At the last stated meeting of (he Board, it was like wise ordered, that additionally to the free tender otf the Readinig and News Roonms, f o mewibers of the Con stitutional Cotivention, the books of reference, statis tics,:public documents, etc., be especially placed at the service of any member, for consultation at the Library Rooms, or that the sanme be withdrawn, for the like purpose, on the written order of the President or Sec retary of'the Convention. Library and News Room of the Association, adjoin. in)g the floor of the College Edifice; open daily, from 9 o'clock, A. M. until 10 o'clock, P. M., Sundays ex cepted. By order and in behalf of the B. oard, JOSEPH C. BUTLER, President. Hon. We. MEDILL, President of the Ohio Constitational Convention. The Convention assemb led in Coll eg e Hall ment, at 10 o'clock, A. M. and was tailed to o Prayer by the Rev. Dr. HOG.S The PRESIDENT then briafly stated the po sit ion of the E business of the Convention at the time of its adjourn;mro ent, as follows: The following Report s of Standing Comm ittee s- had been acted upon in Committee of the Whole, and atmendments mad et he t o the same, which had en ordered to be printed; to-wit: on the Legislative Department; on the Exeutie m ti oM epartmc-nt; on Coor orations: on Jurisprudentce; and on th e Public Institutions of the State. The Report of th e Commit tee on the Militia had be en acted u p lon in CommEittee of the Whole, and recommitterd, with the. amendments to the Committee from which it originated. Repo rts had been made by the following Comrntitees, which yet remain to be acted upon; to-wit: on Finance and Taxation; on the Elective Frailnchlse,; a Educat ion; on Bantihg and the ACurrency. Thle R eport of th Colee Cornitte on the Judiciary was u nder co nsideraltion whcn Com aa i ttee of the' W h ole, at the time of the adjournment. The questi on p ending rwas, on the motion of Mr. ARCHBOLDe of Monre, to aanerd the amendment offe,red by Mr. CLaRcI to the 7th seHe tioni of said Report, so that it would read as follows: "that two of the Judges shall be elected for two years." -Mr. LARWILL presented the credentials of i the Hon. ELzY WILSON, delegate elect from the counties of Wayne and Ashland, in the place of LEANDER FIRE — STONZ,, resigned. Mr. HUNT, pres ented th e c redential s of th e Hon. JoHN CHANEV, delegate elect from the county of Fairfield, in the place of DANIEL A. ROBERTsON, resigned. Mr. GRtEEN of Ross, presented the credentials of HoIn. JAMES T. WORTHING'rON, delegate elect from the county of Ross, in the place of Honi. WESLEY CLAYPOOL, resigned. Mr. LARWILL moved that the credentials of the members elect be referred ta the.Standing Committee on Privileges and Elec,tionis, which was agreed to. The oath of office was administered by the Hon. RiCHARD STILWELL. Mr CASE of Licking-, moved a call of the Conven — tion, which was ordered, and the following gentlemen responded to the call: J, V. SMITH,,, Ilteporter. BY AUTHORITY. S. MEDARY,Printer, 2 e7,, "340 -.1 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- MoNI)AV, DECEMIIEr 2, Mr. STIDGER moved that tile foregoing commun icationi be entered upon the journal of the Convention which was agreed to. Mr. MORRIS, presented the petition of 706 citizens of Clintoii county, praying for a provision'to be in serted in the Constitution prohibiting the fsale of in. toxicating dr inks, which was referred to the Stan ding Conmmittee upon that subje c t. Mr. LOUDON inquired if, in the op'.nion of the General Assembly, providing for the payment of the posta ge of m emb ers of the Convention was still in force. The President decided the resolution to be in force Mr. NASHI offered t he following resolution, which was a greed to: requeted o opn a crresonde ce withteSceayohe p hl eutl2ocloc,M uilthrie offered Resolved, That the Convention accept the polite of fer o -the Young Men's Mercantile, Library Association, and tende~ to that body their thanks for the same. MR. GREEN, of Defiance, offered the following resolution, which was agreed to: Resolv ed, Th at the m orning s ess ion of this convention, be opened with p rayer. a nd tha t the Presi dent malie the nees sary arrang e ments, with the clergy of Cincinnati, to secure their services for t hat purpose. MR. BLICKEFNSDEPFER, offered the following resolution, which was agreed to: Resolt,ed, That the President of this Convention, is hereby requested to open a correspondence with the Secretary of thN Interior, to oSbtti an early copy. of the census returns o e OJio, for the use of the Conv ention. MR. -- CIAMBERS, offredr the following resolution Resolved, That this Convention do maeet at l0 o'clock, A M., and 3 o'clock, P. M., until otherwise ordered. MR. FLORENCE n-omved to anteed the resolution so as to fix the hours of meetitng at 9 A. M. and 2 P. M MR. REEMELIN demanded a division of the ques tionl. MR. STILWELL called for the ayes and noes. MR. REEMELIN withdrew his demand. MR. McCORMICK moved further to amend the resolution, by striking out all after the word Resolved and substituting the following: "That whenl the Convention takes a recess, it be until ha't past six o'clock, P. IV(., and when it adjourns, it be until e o'clock, A. M." MR. McCORMICK nmoved that the resolution, and pending amendment be referred to a select committee of three, which was disagreed to. The question then being on the last amendment, the same was lost. The question then being on the amendment- offered by M r. FI,ORLrNCE: MR. CURRY demanded a division of the question The question then being on striking out the words "teln" aind "three," MR. REEMELIN demanded a further division of the question. 'rile question then turning on striking out the word "ten," MR. STILWELL demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted yeas 52, nays 24, as fol lows: YEAs-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of. Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Blickenisderfer, Brown of Athens, Cahlil, Case of Lickiing, E wing, Farr, Florence, Graham. Greenle of D~efianc-e Gregg, Creoesbeck, Hard, Hawk~ins, Henderson, Hlolmnes Hoo~tmlan, Horton, Hunt, Hlunter, Jonles, Kennon, Kirkwood liidcy, Loudo *, Mitchell, M~orris, Mc~loud, McCormick, Otis. Patterson,Peck.Perkins, qui-gley, Ranlney, f eemelin, Riddle Scott of Auglaize, Sellers,Smith of Warren, Smith of $Vyanl dlot, 8tilwell, Stticklley, Slidget, Taylor, Towvllshend, Vance of Biutler, Warren, Wilson,.~'oodbury, MVr. Presidenlt —52. .. 3xYS,Messrs, Bates, Case of Hoclking, Chambers, Chanecy Curry, Forbes, Green, of Ro0ss, Hamilton, Hclmphrelle, Johnson,.arsh, Lawrence, Larwrill, Leech, Sash, Norris, Orton, Roll, Scott of Harrnson, Smith of Hig-hlandl, $teb~bens, Thompson of Shelby, Vanlce of Champaign, Vfo~fital ten —24. - So the motion prevailed. ; The question then being on striking out the word "three;" MR. STILWELL demanded Ite yeas and s nays, which being ordered, resulted, yeas 31, nays 44; as follows: Y-EAS —Messr., Barnet of Monltgomery, Blickensderfer, tCahill, Farr, Florence. Greene of eftsanrce, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville. Kennon, Kirkwood. Loudon, Morehead. Mck'loud, Mc Cormich, Patterpson, Peck, Perkinrs. Quigley, Ranney, Sele lers, Sti lwe ll, Sticliney, WiIson, W'oodbury. Mr. Presi c NAys-Messrs, Bates, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, * Chambers, Chaiey, ('urry, Dorsey, Ewing, Forbes, Green of Ross, Groesbeck. Hamilton, Huot, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Laish, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Mitchell, Morris, Nash, Norris, Ortoin, Reemeiin, Riddle, Roll,Scott of Harrison, f Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, r Smith of Wyindot, Stebbens, Stidger, Taylor. Thompson, of Shelby, Townshend, Vance oI Butler, Vance of Cliamn. paign, Warren, Worthington —44. So the motian was disagreed to. e Mr. LARSH moved to fill the blank with thle words "nine and a half," which was disagreed to. On motion, the word "nine" was then inserted. Mr. LARSH offered the following as a substitute for , the res,uttion as amended; which was agreed to: Resolved, That hereafter when the Conveniios adjourn, it shall be until 9 o'clock, A. M, and when it takes a recess it shall be until 2 o'clock P, M. until otherwise ordexeed. Mr. GREGG moved that the Convention reconsider : the vote on agreeing to the resolution of, Mr. Blickens derfer. i Mr. GREGG said that the effect of the resolution would be to retard the proceedings of the Commtxittee o n Apportionment, of which he was a memiber; as it would take much time to get fronm the Secretary of the Interior the requisite information. I-is object in ask ing the reconsideration was to move an amendment calling upon the Marshal of Ohio, in whose hainds the returnsof the census were placed, for the conteinplated r statement. He thought at least two nmolths might be saved by so doing. The mnotioii to reconsider was agreed to. , Mr. GREGG then movedi to ainenil the resolution 9 by striking out the words "Secretary of the Interior,' and substituting, "Marshlal of Otiio." Mr. LARSH, was opposed to striking out. Hepro posed to add Fe words "Marshal of Ohio," to the res olution as it stood. The President stated that the Constitutional Con veution of Virginia had adjourned, to meet on thlis day, in the expectation of beiig able to procure from the Home Department information of the nature con* templated inl this resolution. Mr. CHAMBERS thought that we had no power over the Marshal, and that perhaps the Marshal had f no power to make such a report, even if he had the remeans. He supposed the documents would pass out of I his hands as soon a,- they were received. Mr. HENDERSON, was in favor of the amendnl meit. He thought the Marshal would respond to the call of the Convention. As the documents pass through his hands, he can readily give us all that we want. of A division of the question was demanded, and the motion to-strike out prevailed. I o Mr. NASH said that lie understood that a copy of ', the census returns was deposited, as fastas received by P s t he Marshal, with the Secretary of State. He thought ; that that might be the proper place to apply. He there fore moved that the resolution be committed to a select committee of three; which wasagreed to; and Messrs. Gregg, Nash and Henderson were appointed said com nictee. Mr. HIAWKINS offered for adoption the following resolution: 4 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DCEMB',' 3. rneittee of the Whole, when it could be referred back to the Standing Committee. If genltlemen do not desire to discuss the provisions of the report, at present, they can pass it through in silence and let it go to the standing committee, iil the usual nmannier. Mr. RANNEY did not seriously objectto the proposition of tile gentleman from Warre n, (fiMr. SMITH,) but ro i th ou gh t the on e advocat ed by the gentleman from Hanmilton, (Mr. REEMELIN,) to be preferable. He did not like the idea of proceeding irregularly in the business of the Coive ntien, on account of the absence o f members. It is their duty to be present. lie hoped the practice would be different nowa, fr om what it was during the summer session, and he hope d that i n future calls of the Convention, no member would t e ove or vote for dispensing with the rule requiring th eir name s to be entered on the Journal, and that string e nt mreasures would be taken to compel the attendanice of deRliuquents. He moved that the Committee rise and report. Lost. The ques tion being on passing the order, a division was called for, and the vote stood, a ye s 54, boes tw c ou nted. So the order was passed. Th e Committee t hen proceeded to the consideration of th e repo rt o f t he Committee on Apport1i40, nt, which was read. SMc. 1. The apportionme nt o f this State sh all be made every ten years after the year 1851, in the following manner The whole population of the State as ascertained e very ten years by the federal ce nsus, or inl such other mode asthe Legislature m ay disrect, shall forever be divided by the daimber on e hundred, and the quotient shall be the ratoion, the House of Repreaentatives, for the ten years next ersuing from such apportionment. Mr. DRE SELIN mo ved to amend the foreu oing section by st riking out, in the first line, the wordu ten," and inserting the word "five," in the plac e thereof. Mr. REEMELIN said that h e mad e this motion f or the purpose of testing the s ense of th e Committee upon this and the other questions w hich were nece ssi rily connected withit. If it should be agreed to it would be necessary, in another part, so to amend the report as to provide for the taking of a census under the au thority of the State, in the tines intermediate between the periods of the federal enumeration. He believed such a census would be useful in more respects than one, as it might be employed in such a manner as to collect other intelligence than that supplied by the na tionial one. He believed that the apportionment of the state, upon the basis of au enumeration made only once in ten years would be productive of serious in justice to certain portions of the state, for many years to come. In some sections, the population is increas ing with great rapidity, others are nearly stationary. In therapidly growing parts, the population would, even in five years, be far in advance of the represenita tion. Take, for example, the ceisus of 1840, and ap ply it to 1845, even, and great injustice would accrue. A section of the state to which under the census seven representatives would be given, would in five years, if ~ju-stice should be done, be entitled to ten. He thought five years as long as it would be practicable to district the state, upon the same enumeration. He therefore hoped that the amendment would be agreed to. W~.DORSEY hoped the amendment would not pre vail. He thought it would strike at the.reeltof the principle upon which the system was founided. He was aware of the chanigeful: relative character of the population of the state, some parts gainling, while oth erslose. But if'thle gentleman will attentivelv exam nothe report, he will see that it was framed' with a view to suchl a-state of thinigs. The system was also constructed with reference to biennial sessions of the General Assembly, with which the gentlemen's propo sition would materially interfere. Resol~ved. That there be a Committee appointed, to consist/ of five members, whose duty it shall be to report arrangements for transmitting the printing that may be required, to the office of the printer of the Convention. and such other arrangements in relation to that subject, as may be deemed necessary and paoper. Mr. HAWKINS said that a contract had been entered into for the performance of the printing of the Convention, and that was necesssary in order for the parformance of its duty, that it should perform its own part and transmit to the office of the printer the matter of the reports He desired that there should be no failure on the part of the Convention. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE asked if the contract with the printer included the daily publication of the pro. ceedings of the Convention. The resolution was then agreed to. Mr. SMITH, of Warren, presented the petition of Samuel Jones and 123 others, citizens of Mercer county, praying the Convention to so construct the Constitution as that there shall be no distinction on account of color, among the citizens of the State. On motion of Mr. ORTON, the Convention ado urned. FIFTY-FOURTH DAY. TUESDAY, December 3, 1850, w NINE O'CLOCK, A. M.. The Conveoition met, pursuant to adjourrnmenit. Mr. HUNT presented the petition of John U. Pease and 42 others, citizens of Lucas county, praying for thea insertion of a clause in the constitution, prohibiting tihe passage of any law legalizing the sale of intoxicatin' liquors. Refe,rred to the select committee on that subject. Mr. McCLOUD presented a petition from Allen Jones and 36 others, citizens of Madison county, prayiig for a prohibition of the sale of ardent spirits, except for medicinal purposes. Referred to the same committee. Mr. HARD presented a petition from Martin Raymoad and 164 others, citizens of Jackson county. for a provision, to prohibit black and naulatto persons from emigrating to Ohio; which was laid on the table. Mr. DORSEY offered for adoption, the following ,resolution: Resolved, That it shall be the privilege of those Committees whose reports have not yet been acted on in Committee of the Whole, to withdraw their reports and malie in them sunch changes as they may deem proper, before submitting them to the action of the Conventiont Mr. DORSEY thought that time might be saved to the Conavention by allowing any of the standing Committees, whose reports had not been acted upon. to withdraw them and perfect them still further by whatever light they may since have acquired. The resolution was then disagreed to. On motion of Mr. BLICKENSDER FER, th e Con. vention resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. GREEN' of Ross, in the Chair. The business in order, being the report of the Committee on the Judiciary, Mr. SMITfl of Warren, moved that the order be passed, on account of the il!ness of Judge KF.,iNo, the chairman of the committee that miade the report, and the absence of other members of said committee. He hoped that under the circumstances it would be deemed consistent for the Convention to allow the report to go back to the Standing Committee, as there were certain modifications which might be made, which would re move certain of the objectionable features of the report. Mr. REEMELIN hoped that this course would not be permitted. Most of the principles of the report upon which disagreements have occurred have already been passed over, and he hopeds that the Convention woald proceed and go through with the report in Cofi I 5' 6 OHIO GONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DFCEMBER . Mr. RANNEY could see no reason why a less num ber should be represented, after the first representative had been secured. Mr. HAWKINS desired to pass over this report, and take up that onl the Legislative Department. The sen timent of members in relation to annual and biennial sessions, nmay have changed since the adjournmient. I we are to have bi ennial sessiors of the General Assem bly, this report conforms with that plan. It contem plat e s, to some extent, territorial representatiosn. It is doubtless desirabl t ie to give to each county one repre sentative; al fo te rwards, in order tha t representatives shall not multiply too rapidly, the third on e requires the full ratio, and the second three-fourthis. This appears to me to be wise and prudent. Mr. ARCHBOLD desired a n explanation of t he gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. Hawkins,) but the re poIter was not able to catch his rem yarks. Mr. BARNETT of Preble, said the provisio ns wer e wr ong and inconsistent with each othe r. There is no good reason why a representative should be give n to one and three-fourths of a ratio. There ma y be a rea son why a small couit y s hould have on e representa - tive, but beyon d t his, he was not prepared to go. The question being on agreeing to th e amendme nt, the same was lost, on div ision; a yes 38, nays 38, a tie vote. Mr. McCORMICK moved t o strike out th e third: section of the r eport. Mr. McCORMICK said he did not pretend to un derstand the third section. The seconid preovides for the regulation of representation and the apportion ment of the State for that purpose. The third sec tion appears to be for some othe r purpose, a nd to ren der the plan similar to the o ld system of floats. One half the ratio enti tles the-county to on e representative, one a nd t e ot, t t n et the fourth, to two, and three to three; but the third section seems not to vpply to counties having one-half or two-thirds the ratio. hBy this section, if a county has a p opula tion of thirty thousand, she has one constant repr esentative, and i n t wo out of five y es sionss, she has onle addit iona. He did no t underr tan d why, once in two or three years, five thousand people should have a representative, entitled as such, to all the privileges of a member of the General A~sembly. In order to increase the size of the house, you take all the fractions during several years, add them up, and base a representative upon them. Such a provision will be productive of discord and disturbanic in the fu ture as in the past. Mr. DORSEY did not think the plan had any an alogy to the system of floats. In order not to disfran chise even the smaller fractions, representatives are given, to take seats at a fixed time. The excellence of the system, is that more cozjcpletely than ally other, it uses up all the fractions. Mr. McCORMICK. The only difference between this and the old system, is, that in this the floats are fixed by the Constitution, and in the other by the Gen eral Assembly. Mr. McCormick asked and obtained leave to with draw his motion. The fourth, fifth and sixth sections were read and passed over without amendment. Mr HORTON moved to strike out the seventh sec~ tion. Mr. HORTON desired particularly to call the atten=tion of the convention to this section. Its evident intention is to provide a remedy for excessive representation~, but it is not sufficientt for that purpose. For that reason alone he would have made the motion, but thoro isdnother. If you restrict the nlumber of representatives representing fractions to twelve, you-inter, fere w[ill every prevision of tk e report, and strike ~:t The question then being upon the amendment, the same was disagreed to. The second section was then read and passed over without amendment. SEc. 3, When any county has a fraction above the entire ratio so large, that by being multiplied by the number of ses- sions in the decennial period, (viz.) five, it will produce an amount sufficient to entitle the county to one or more Rep resentatives. as follows, requiring a whole ratio for the first additional Representative, a ratio ofthree fourths for two ad ditional Representatives, three tilnes the ratio for three, and four times the ratio, for four additional representative p s such additional representatives shall be apportioned among, the seversa, sessions ofthe decennial period, as follows: if there be only one additional representative, he shall be allotted to the fifth session of the decennial period; if there are two. they shall be allotted to the fourth, and third sessions respec tively;if three to the third, second and first sessions respec tively; if four, to the fourth, third, second andt first sessions, respectively. Mr. MANON moved so to amend the section as to strike out of the fifth line, the words, "a ratio of three fourths," and insert "twice the ratio.". Mr. MANON said that he was one of the commit. tee that made the report. He signed it and concurred in its general principles and provisions. But this sec tion, as it is 1iow fixed, hie did not understand. As it is, there was nothing that would operate in favor of the small counties, for a large county would be as likely to be benefited by its provisions, as the small. Mr. KIRKWOOiD desired to hear from some mem ber of the committee, in favor of-the provision as it stands, on what principle it was so fixed. Mr. DORS EY said, if the gentleman from Richland, [Mr. KIRKWOOD,] would examine the second section of the report, he would see tihe reason for the provisions of the third, which it was now proposed to strike out. It was made for the benefit of the sparsely settled counties of the State. TI'he intention wasto mathe pro vision for fractions of population not otherwise provid ed for. Mrc. MANON insisted that the s ec tion as it stands, does not benefit the w e aker counties. The amendment as offered, effects no principle involved in the report, and merely provides that a full number, instead of a fraction, shall be rf quired for thesecond representative. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE would like to hear from a member of the committee, why a fraction shall in one case entitle a constituency to a representation, and in another, not. He could see why, for the purpo se of r epresentation in small counties, a fraction should be taken for the first representation, and why, in other cases, one full ratio should secure one, and three ratios three members; but why one ratio and three-fourths should elect two representatives, he could not under stand. Mr. DORSEY said that if gentlemen would look at the report, they would find that every county having one-half the ratio, is to have one representative. Suppose the ratio to-be twenty thousand, each county of ten thousand is to have one, each of thirty-five thousand, to have two. If a couIIty have twenty-four thou. sand, the fraction is to' be multiplied by four, the number of sessions in the decennial'period, it will be seen that it is entitled to one representative for one session, during the period; but if the fraction is seven thousand, which multiplied by five, makes thirty-five thousand, we give the county a fractional representative, in considerrtionl of its three-fourths. It makes the rules of the twvo sections, in relation to the full and the fractional members, consistent. The change will defeat that object. Mr. RANNE1Z inquired if it was in.tended to represen~t fractions after the first$ representative has been so. cured to the county? Mr. DORSEY. As~uredly, upon the general principles of the report.; OHIO. CONVENTION DEBATES TUESDAY, DFcr.,MBER 3. 6 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESD)AY, DECEM3ER 4. the root of the doctrine that representation should be based upon population. If this State has ten millions of inhabitants, as it doubtless will have in ten years, you will be forced to cut down the whole law. For his part hie saw no evil in a large legislative body. If we have three millions of people, a House of Representatives of one hundred and fifty will not be too large, if four millions, two hundred. He saw no objection to striking out, nor any injury to the other sections of the report. Mr. DORSEY thought the section would apply a remedy to the evil that was apprehended. There can be but one hundred regular members, according to the system, no matter what the population, for in order to ascertain the ratio af representation, you divide the whole population of the state by one hundred, the number of members. Of course that number cannot be exceeded of members representing full ratios.Tlhe remainder is to be made up of those who represent fractions, and this rule being operative to reduce the number of fractional representatives. The smaller fractioins are stricken off until the proper number is arrived at. He did not wish now to debate the question of large or sniall assemblies, but he remembered that in tilhe committee, great objections were made to a large body. The question being on striking out, the same was lost, on division; ayes 23, noes 46. The eighth, ninthl, tenth and eleventh sections were then passed without amendment. Mr. HOLMES moved to transpose the words "Rep'esentatives and Senators," in the twelfth section, which was agreed to. The thirteenth and fourteenth sections were passed informally. On motion of Mr. CHAMBERS, the committee rose and reported. Onrmotio~nof Mr. BENNETT, thereport wasrecommitted to the standing committee on Apportioninent. Mr. CHAMRERS offered for adoption the following resolution, which was agreed to: Resolved, That a committee of five members be appointed to consult and inquire as to the practicability and cost of improving this hall for the purposes of debate, and to enable members to transact business with more facility, and that they report to the Convention as early as practicable, Mr. CHAMBERS obtained leave to be excused from serving on the commnittee. The PRESIDENT announced Messrs. Holmes, Bennett, Dorsey and Worthington. Mr. SWAN asked and obtained leave of absence. The President announced to the Convention the resignation of JOHN CARRtOLTON, the Sergeant-at-Arms of the Convention. On motion of tr. HOLMES, the said resignation was accepted by tihe Convention. Mr. MANOi offered for adoption the following resolution, which was agreed to: Resolved, That a committee of five be apponinted with power to inluire whether there are any officers of the con-. vention. which may be dispensed with, and that a retrenchmentin the expenses of the Convention may be effected. The President announced the appointment of the following gentlemen as members of the standing commlittees, in the place of members who have restglued their seats in this Convention, viz: Hon. JAMES T. WORTHINGTON, to the Committee on Apportionment, in the place of Hon. WESLEY CLAYPOOL, resigned; Hon. ELZY WILSON, to the Committee on Finance and Taxation, in the place of LEANDER FlteSTONE, Esq., resigned; Hon. RoBEaT CHANEv, to the Committee on the Elective Franchise, in the place Of D. A. ROBERTSON, Esq., resigned The Conventionl then took a recess. 3 o'CLOCK. Mr. HAWKINS, from the committee on printing. submitted the following report: The committe e a ppoi nted on the subject of transmitting to theoice of the printer of the se o Conventiont the matter required to be printe d, re spectfully report: That the law relatinso the the duty of th e reporter and the authority conferred upon that officer by this Convention, would seem to authorize hi m to do all that may be necessary in order to ensure a prompt and safe transmission to the office of the printer of n11 ma t ter to be printed. In order, however, that the reporter may have no doubts r especting his authority to incur the necessary expense, the committee subb;it t he following: I Resolved, That the Reporter to this Convention be and he is hereby authorized to con tract for th e daily tr ansmission of all matter necessary to be printed to the office of the prin. ter, an d to pay therefore- a sum n o t exceeding t wen t-five cents daily for taking to, and a like sum for bringing from Columbus, The resolution was agreed to. Mr. ROLL, moved that the Convention, adjourn and stated that it was desirable to have some additional carpeniters work done in the Hall. He also stated that it was necessary for this evening that the tables should be removed in time. for the lecture of Cassius M. Clay; i to be delivered in -the Convention Hall. Mr. BARNET of Montgomery, remarked that if the ibusiness hours of the Convention were hereafter to be broken in upon, he should most certainly move to pro.cure another Hall. Mr. RIDDLE explained, that hereafter no incon venienice would be felt and that there would be no de lay in the public business, on account of the Hall be ing needed for other purposes. The yeas and nays being demanded, the same were ordered, and resulted, yeas 43 nays, 33, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee. Bennett,Case of Hoc king Chaney, Dorsey, Farr,Florence, Graham, Gray, Greene of De fiance, Hamilton,Holmes, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kirkwood, Ldrsh, Lawrence, Lar-, will, l,eech, Leadbetter. Lldey, Mitchell, Mc(loud, McCor mick, Norris, Orton, Riddle,Roil, S,awyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of VWarren, Stidger, Struble, Townshend. Vance of Butler, Vance of Charnpaign, Mr. President-43. NA&Ys-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble; Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Case of Licking, Ewing, Forbes Gregg, Bard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hunter, Loudon, Manon, Morris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Wyanidot, Stilwell, Stickney, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington —33. So the motion prevailed and the Convention adjourned. FIFTY FIFTH DAY. WEDNESDAY, December 4, 1850. The Convention met, pursuant to adjournment, Mr. V,%NCE of Butler, in the Chair. Mr. VANCE stated that the President, in consequence of i lness, wouldnot be present this day. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. Brooke. Mr. STIDGER presented a petition from Joseph Stewart, Isaac Greer, and fifty others, citizens of Stark county, against authorizing the sale of intoxicating drinks. Mr. MANON, a petition from Mary Smith, and one hundred and seventy-two other female citizens of Licking county, on the sa me s ubj ect. Said petitions were referred. Mr. KIRKWOOD, from the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, to which was referred the certificate of John Chaney and Elzy Wilson, reported that the Committee found the said gentlemen duly elected. 7 . AFTERNOON SESSION. 8 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER, 4. they are obliged to submit to the laws, it would seem that they had a right to participate in the government, and that they would become better citizens for being permitted to do so. Mr. HAWKINS thought that if the amendment had been as.extensive as he desired lie wonld vote for it. Hee moved as an amendment to the amendment, that the word. "inale" be stricken Qut. Mr. NASH desired to inquire of the gentlemanfrom Morgan, (Mr. HAWKINS) what is to be the legal construction of the amendment when it shall be adopted. Who wi I be entitled to vote? Mr. HAWKINS thought this a very remarkable in quiry, coming from a legal gentleman. The section as amended will mean what, it declares: all citizens will be entitled to vote. It cannot mean ansything else. The question being on the amendment to the a me nd ment, the same was agreed to. The question then being on the amendment a s amended, the same was disagreed to. Mr. SMITH- of Warren moved to amend the second line, by adding the word' ne xt" between the words "year" and "lpreceding" which was agreed to. Mr. MANON moved to amend the second line, by striking out l w ne words "one year," and inserting the words'six mota h s;" which was disag reed to; ayes 20i noes not counted. Mr. BARNET of Preble presen ted a n amen dment, to come io after the word "law," in the fourth liase, as follows: D"who have paid a Slate, county, to wnship, o r ward tax, or who shiall have be en cha rge d with the same." Mr. BARNET said that in his opinion, the provisions to the effect of the proposed amene dment, cntained in the old Constitution, had been found by experience to be a good and wholesome measure. He thought that no person who contributed nothing in support of the goverlment, should be allow e d to partakei in its powers. It wili be found that the section in the pres ent Constitution doe s not exclude from the, elective franchise those who perform lal)or upon the public roads. -Now it is evident that if a, ma.n is not charged with a tax, it imust be because he has no paroperty; but any and every man can labor on the high way. If he refuses, it is evidence that he is not willing to contribute to the cost of government, and not worthy to participate in its powers. The principle has been found to work well, ard he was no[t wilIing to make an innovation. Mr. MANON hoped the amendment would not prevail. He could cite instances where it would be productive of great abuse. In the case of old men. many of whom had performed important services to their country, but who have no property on which to pay taxes,, and are past the age of labor on the highways. Such men, anxious still to- take a part in pubtic affairs, ought not to be disfranchised. Mr. BARNET denied that such a construction had not been given to the present constitution as to deprive such men of their franchises. Mr. SAWYER was opposed to property qualifications of any kind. He thought it was the anat, and not the property, that gives the tigh~t-the man and not the ass Mr. MANON thought we might not always hase the genltlemanl from Preble present to expound the law up. .on this doulbtful point. M~r. CI4ANEY said there was a class of old men} coming late in life, to reside with their childrenl perhaps in the State, who would be excluded by this policy and uponl which its operationl would be very severe all. un}just. Many of them have no taxable property, ant Mr. LEADBETTER offered the following resolution: Resolvedn That Mr. Henry Okey be a ppointed Surgeant-atArms for this Convention, and that the vacancy occasioned by his advancement to that post be unfilled for the present. Mr. MANON moved that the resolution be referred to the committee appointed yesterday on the subject of Retrenchment. Mr. MORRIS moved that the same be be laid on the table; which was disagreed to. The motion to refer was then disagreed to. The resolution was then agreed to. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convent;,on then resolved itself into a Commnittee of the Whole, Mr. ARCHBOLD in the Chair. Mr. I,OUDON moved that the report of the Committee on Finance and Taxation, which was the first in order, be laid over informally, in consequence of the absence of certain members of the Standing Committee that reported the samne; which was agreed to. Mr. BARBEE hoped the report would be passed for the present. One member of the committee was absent at the time it was compiled; another has been appointed since it was brought in. The question on passing the report was agreed toayes 42, noes not ccunted. The commimttete then took up the first report of the Standing Committee on the Elective Franchise. iMr. CHANEY said that he stood in a situation some what peculiar in relation to this bill. He had been appointed upon the committee that reported it, since the report was made. He did not view himself as chairman of that committee, as was his predecessor. He thought it the duty of the committee, under the circumstances, to appoint its chairman. He had had no communication with Mr. Robertson uponi the subject of the report, and had never read it, nor seen any of the documents upon which it was based. He felt, therefore, under the necessityv of asking the committee to pass this order, unless some other member of the Standing Committee would consent to take charge of it. fMr. HAWKINS said it was n ecessary for the Convention to proceed to the performance of some of its duties. The report had been satisfactory to a majority of the committee, and probably was so to a majority of the Convention. He thought there would be but little discussion upon it. However, if the gentleman from Fairfield had any especial object in passing the report, he would go for it, as he was disposed to accommodate him. Mr. CHANEY had no particular object. He was only anxious to act understandingly. If the Convention was pleased to proceed, he would not object. SEC. 3, Every white male citizen of the United States, of the age of twenty one years, who shall have been a resi. dent of the State, for one year preceeding the Election, and of the county, township or ward in which he resides, such time as may be provided by law, shatll be entitled to vote at all elections which ale now, or may be hereafter authorized by law. MR. WOODBURY moved to strike out in the first line, the word "white." MR. WOODBURY did not propose now to make any remarks upon the subject, but at some future time when there should be an opportunity to call the yeas and nays upon the question, he should take occasion to deliver his sentiments upon the principle involved in tale amendment he now proposed. He thought it would be better for all parties and for every citizen, th at the word "white" should be stricken out. The exclusion of the colored population from all participation in that government, which they are forced to aid in Supperting, and to which they are responsible, has aniendency to tender them dissatisfied. So long as OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Wr EDNE-SDAY, DECEMB:R, 4. they are released from labor on the roads, by their age; yet they are worthy citizens, and many of them have perfornmed services for their country. Mr. BARNET, on leave, withdrew his motion Mr. THOMPSON of Stark, moved to strikeout from the first line, the words "United States," and insert the words, "this State." Mr. REEMELIN said that this motion brings up a question which he had, at some time, intended to pre-i sent to this Cenvention. He had had his doubts all along, whether we are not permitting ourselves. to be trapped, by surrendering to the United States an at. tribute of sovereignty which the constitution of the United Stat es had left to bha ernjoyed by the individual members of the Uniont. ]Ie desired that we should endeavor to define the difference between a citizen of the United States, and a citizeni of this State. We should preserve the power to settle who is a citizen and elector of oar own State. He did not suppose that at this moment the minds of members are ready to take hold and discuss this subject at present; but at a proper time, he should desire to be heard upon it. Mr. TAYLOR. Tlere is so much difficultv in be ing heard over thie echoes and reverberations of this HIall, that I shall contentt myself with a single remark. Who shtall be considered citizens of this Union? I take the broad but tenllable ground that all should be regarded as citizens of the United States who owe al legiance to the Government of the Union, whether they are vested with the elective frainchise or not. Mr. PRESIDENT, Amiiericain citizenship is a gen eric and comprehensive term and much Inore so than the term "subject under a monarchial form of Govern ment. The term of "a citizen of the, U nited States" therefare, ncludes Deete, women and t,hildren —every one inll short, who can demand the official protection of the Federal Government, or may be amenable for the crirtme of treason. The question being on t(le amendment, the sam was disagreed to. r. WOODBURY moved to amnend, in the fourth line, bv a.dding, after the word "law"' the words, "or ally perso-n of twentty-onle years, who shall be charged with a State or County tax." Mr. HAiIWKINS moved to amend the amendment, by adding before the word "person," the word "such," which was agreed to. Tabe question then being on the atrmentdmenit as amend ed, the saine was lost. M~r. RANNEY moved to amend by striking from the thiird and fourth line, the words from the word "election," to the word "laws," and inserting, "and who is a bona fide resident of the township or ward in which hie offers to vote at the time of the election." A~[R. RtANNEY said that the words proposed to be stricken out are different from those in the present Constitution of the State; and-t he could see no reason why the elective franchise should be so placed as to be varied to suit the caprices and changes of opinion of the General Assembly. A muii, through poverty or otherwise may be so circumstanced as to )be obliged to remove from one township to another in the same counlty, every year; and it is, under thissect ion, in the power of the General Assembly so to fix the law as to deprive him of his vote for a long series of years, and one may entirely lose a previously acquired francl t see He was couteut, that persons removilig from other States into our own, should undergo a probation of one year, to acquire a knowledge of our laws and institutions; but lhe did not believe that on a mere removal fronm one county to another, any such probation is necessary or advisable. He wanted to leave it where the old Con sltitution leaves it. MR. HAWKINS did not know but that it would be well enough to leave something to the discretion of the General Assembly. It will be necessary occasionally to Mlave its aid in suppressing abuses-perhaps new ones. There have been some already. Th(re has been such a thing as pipe-layinig, in some counties, and that to a very considerable extent. Politicians know how to distribute the political force of a section of the State, in such a manner, as t o p ro duce the desired effect. A farmer in one county may have a large crop'of broom corn. By means of importing a large numbecr of labore rs from an o th er co unt y, hi e may so co ntrive a s to contreol the elect io n of bot h. Suc h men, may, with a loose rule. be considered citizens of the county in wh ich they vnte. Diffrent constructions have beetn iven to the law, in different precincts. In one, the place of a man's residence has been decided to be, the place, whoer his washing was done; in another, where he takes his food; in a third, the place where his wife resides. So many differet i ntnerpretations have been given, that i n his oapinion, a little di scretion should be lett to the General Assembly, to supply an y defect t hat may be discovered in our legislation. MR. CASE, of Licking was opposed to the amend rment. He was content with the provision as it stands. He would give his reason f or his opposition, by stating a case that catne under his own o bservation. He was a resident of a town through-which the Ohio Canal passes. Every year, the mere. transient, homeless, hands of canal boats were allowed by the trustees to come to the polls and vote on the day of ele.ctioni; and it laud become the practice to accutmiulate a large nurn ber of boats to conme in for the purpose of allowing the hands to control the election. fie hoped the section would be allowed to stand, and that at least, some time of actual residence will be required. It is only ini this way that the corruption and fraud for years practised can be suppressed. It must be evident that the crew of a canal boat, who have no home, and -who are per fectly transient, ought not to have thie right to go from place to place and decide who shall be the local officers of the State. MR. TOWNSHEND moved to amend the amend ment, by substituting "actually" in the place of bona fide; which was agreed to. ~Ir. TOWNSHEND moved further to amend the amend meiit, by striking out the word "is," and inserting in the place thereof, the words, "shall have been." Mr. RANNEY was not tenacious about the form, though he liked his own the best. He was only arnx ious to guard the elective franchise. It was proposed here, to leave everything to the General Assembly. It may be that that body will require, at one period a longer time, and at another a shorter; and; we shall be in a coinstanit state of incertitude and fluctuation. To this he was opposed.!-e had seen no difficulty under the present Constitution. The gentleman from Kick ing, [Mr. CAsE,] may have done so. The question being on the amendment to the amend menit, was disagreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the amendment: Mr. TAYLOR demanded a division of the ques tionl. Mr. RANN!iEY mloved to amend the ~menldment by inserting a requirement of twenty days residence ill the county, &c, previous to the election, which was agreed to. Mr. NASH wished to inquire of the gentleraja from Trumbull, (Mvr. R aNNrY) the object of the inser tioll of such a provision in thle C onstituftion, The present constitution -leaves the question when and where to vote, to the General Assembly. If we were providing only: for members of the Legislature we I I I t f r 9 10 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER., 4. might settle the question, but the city and ward elec tions would seem to require another rule. This anlendmnellt will act on persons moving from one township or ward to another, and will, in this city, af fect the interest of a large number of persons every year.- The report, in his opinion, was right, and that it ought to be left to the Legislature to adapt measures to suit the various classes of citizens in the state. The samre rule cannot well apply in all cases, aind it ought to be left where it was, and where it has produced no I conveenience. Mr. RANNEY desired only to narrow down the rule of the constitution by making it applicable to res idents of townships. The committee had seen fit to adopt an amendment, requiring a residence of twenty days. He did not see the force of the gentleman fromn Gallia's (Mr. NASH,) reasons in regard to residents in cities. It was there especially, that he desired to guard against frauds. Mr. LARSH hoped that the motion to strike out would prevail; but he could not consent to vote for the amendment as it now stands. A man may find it necessary to move every year. If he renmoves on the first of April, as is usually the case in cities, he might reside fifteen or twenty years in the same city and yet never 1)e allowed to vote at any spring election. He could not see why the existence of an occasional fraud should be made the pretext for the perpetration of a constant fraud upon a large number of citizens. Mr. MANON said that as the amendment had been amended so that he could not vote for it, he should op. pose the striking out. Mr. MASON begged to suggest to the mover of the amendment, (Mr. RANNEY,) the propriety of so amend ing his amendment as to make a distinction between county elections, and those of townships and wards nsereiy. The county elections are the important po litical events of the State. At them are elected the Governor, Members of Congress and of the General Assembly. Reasons applicable to them may not be so to the others, or in a less degree. As to thequestion of residence in order to vote in townships or wards he was not particular, and would only, perhaps, requirean actual residence on the day of election; but the county is an unit, and whether a man vote in one townshipbr another is a material matter. The Constitution should define what is a residence in a county. The Legisla ture ought to know that it has nothing to do with it. In regard to tile smaller divisions, he was t,illing to leave it to the General Assembly; and when called upon to vote upon the proposition, as a whole, he de sired to do it unembarrassed. Mr. MASON moved to strike from the amendment, the word county. Mr. RANNEY was not tenacious. He only desired that the Constitution should define the elective fran chise, and hoped that the Convention was not about to leave rights so important to be sought for in the acts of the General Assembly. Mr. CHANEY. If I understand the proposition of the gentlemrn from Clark, (Mr. MAsON,) he would require a residence of one year, previous to voting at any county election. I cannot vote for such a proposition. Mr. LARWILL was in favor of striking out the word "county," in the hope that the matter might be fixed in the constitution. By that instrument, a citizen ought to be able to ascertain what are his rights., Tie people expect that we shall determine that question, in tile constitution. He did not feel tenacious as to the length of residence required, but hoped that some time would be fixed, and that it would not be leftp to the General Assembly. Mr. DORfroY was oppose d to the suggestion of the gentlvmar. from Clark, (Mr.;MAsor~,) in,regard to a res idence of a year in the county. He was also opposed to limiting any particular time for a residence in townl ships or wards. He was willing to prov;de that no man should vote who was not a resident in the to wnship or war d in which he offer s to vote, but woulh fix noo time for the length of such residence. It would be produc tive of great inconvenience. We have a large popula tion on the canals of our State, who reside only upon boats; and which would be the greater wrong-to allow them to vote where they are, or to disfranchlised them altogether? Mr. RANNEY. In what county would you allowW such a citizen to vote? Mr. DORSEY. In the county where he is on the day of election. Mr. RANNEY. This would notdo inaelo.- town ship or county. Would the gentleman permit him, under such circumstances, to vote where he might choose to be? Mr. DORSEY. I am aware of the abuse; but to deprive men of their rights is a greater abuse. Mr. RANNEY. What propriety is there an such a man voting for town or county officers? Mr. DORSEY. Ele mnust have a residence same where; and where it is, he should hate the right tovote. But I would not bind him to reside anywhere as a maiter of necessity for that purpose. It is equal tosaying that he shall not vote at all. The question being on strikinig out, was lost on division; ayes 22, noes 50. Sections second and third were passed without amendment. Mr. MANON moved to strike out the fourth seetion; which was disagreed to. Sections fourth, fifth, arid sixth were passed withook amendment. -On motion of Mr. HAWKINS, the committee rase and reported. And the Convention took a recess. A,rERzNOON rESSJON. 3 o'elroc, P. M. The President pro tem, (Mr. VA1CL? of Butler} remnarlted that when the Convention took a recess it had under consideration the report of the Co -mmittee on the Elective franchise, te fo penditng question beinig upon the motion to lay the same on the oable,s wieti was agreed to. On motion a call of the Convention was crdeared, and eighty-one members answered to their names. The absentees were excused and al} further proceedings under the call were dispen-sed with. On motion by Mr. REEMELIN the Convention re solved itself into a Conmittee of the whole, Mr. HORTON in the Chair, and proceeded to the consideration of the report of the standing committee Dn education. The first section is as follows: The GCeneral Assembly shall provide forthe electioa by the people, of a Superinitendent of Common Sobools, whose term of officee. duties and compensation, shall be prescribed by law; and shall provide for the election or appointment of such as' sistants, or other officers, as may be found necessary, pre scribe their duty, term of office and com'penenatton. This section was adopted unanimously and without amendment. The second section was then read: The General Assembly shall encourage by suitable means. the promotion of moral, intellectual, scientific and agricuttural improvement. I The proceeds of the sales of all, lands that have been, or may hereafter be granted by the United States for educational purposes, and all lands or other property given by individuals, for educational purposes, and all lands or other pr-ope~rty given by individuals bfor life purposes, together with the surplus revenue deposited with this State by the Uaited States (until reclaimed) shall be, and forever remain. a per OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, Dk:CEMBiER, 4. made by any gentleman on this floor. I did not, on the other hand, suppose tihat any proposition to extend the political rights of the colored citizens of Ohio would be adopted; but I had supposed that a knowledge of the law of self-preservation would have suggested to the gentleman from Auglaize [Mr.SAwvERl'and to every gentleman upon the floor, that it would be good policy to give to all within the reach of our laws a good moral and intellectual training. I knew that this Convention was not prepared to increase the political rights of the black man; but I had hoped that all were willing to provide against his ecconilug the pest of society, by being deprived of all opportunities for education. Shall we not. ecurc protection to ourselves and our children by relieving thie colored population of Ohio, from the absolute necessity of growing up in vice and ignorance? Shall we, by the adoption of the amendment of the gentleman from Auglaize, constitute a class who will become the inmates of our poor houses, and the tenants of our jails? I think it must be clear to every reflecting mind that the true policy of the statesman is to provide the means of education, and consequent moral improvement, to every child in the State, the offspring of the black man equally with that of the white ran,, the children of the poor equally with the rich. But I am told that the Negro belongs to a degraded and inferi or race; so much the more reason, sir, for their education and improvement. Leave them to grow up without moral and intellectual training, and they become a positive curse as well as: burthenl upon society. Educate them, and they become useful members of the community that has cared for them. I repeat that I had not heard that we were positively to retrograde in this matter by commencing a system of persecution upon the colored population of the State, already, one would think, sufficiently unfortunate. I beg gentlemen to be consistent in this regard-let them proclaim their real designs-if the black man is to be d riven a cross our borders at the point of the bayonet, let them say so. I believe that a majority of the membecrsof thi s Conveemtion are not prel ared to deny to our colored population all opportunities for moral and intellectual training for the duties of life; although they may not be willing to extend to that class the right to exercise the elective franchise. Education will te nd to make Bnen moral and useful members of society, therefore let us provide for the educ ation of every child in the State. Mr. SAWYER. I have but a few words to say, sir upon this subject. I am sure that I would go quite as far as the gentleman from Erie; (Mr. TAYLOR,) to do justice to the negro race. Whseln he hears mv views uvon the subject, he may find that we do not differ very widely. Under our present laws, the negro is not taxed for the support of schools to which his children are denied admittance. True, the negro is taxed for school purposes, but it is exclusively for the benefit of his own children, when he desIres it should be thus applied. There is therefore no injustice, no inhumnanity, if genUtlemen choose to place the matter upon that ground. And, sir, I am willinig to extend to the niegro the same exemption from taxationi for the support of white schools, for all time to come. But, sir, while I will oppose any measure for the oppression of the blacks nIow in the State, I will as strenluously oppose eve y proposition which, in its practical effect, will tend to encourage the emigration of blacks into the State. Antd, sir, while I would desire to injure the feelings of nlo gentleman who holds sentiments opposi. e to my own, I must say that I rejoice ill the passage of the fugitive slave hill; for i believe it witl have the effect to rid the free. S~tates of the curse of a n~gro population, intermnixed with the whites. Nor shall I be deterred from frankly expressing this opinion of the met manent and irreducible ftnd; th e intere st an d income thelefrom, shall be f aithfully applied t o the specific objects of the original grant, gift or appropriation. Mr. STIDGER. I will r emark that it was intended to p rovide that the proceeds of the several funds named in the report just read, should be aeplied for educational purposes-n oo tehe funds themselves. Mr. SAWYER. Imove to strike out the first parag rap h of this se c tion. It is this "The General Assembly shall encoura ge, by suitable means, the promotion of moral, intellectual, scientific and agricultural improvement." Ido th is sir, in order to elicit from the Chairman (Mr. STIDGIR) of thie Committee on Education, an explanation of the inten tion of the Committe e in embodying this exceedingly broad and c ompreh ensiv e sentence in ltheir report. There ma y be more in those words than strikes the eye at first sight. The expression s eems to me vague and too gen eral in its character. We had better leave "the encouragement of scie nc e an d agriculture" to the legislature. I cannot quit e conc eiv e what connection the subject of agriculture has with that of popular Education. Mr. ST1DGER. If we should leave every thin)gto the Legislature, why not adjourn t his Convention stne die, at once? But t he g entl em an from Aiuglaize fcan n ot se e wh at connection the subject of Agriculture has with thatof Education. I would remark, in th e w o rds of the distinguished lecturer cf last evenin g (Cassius M. Clay) that this is an age of progress, and that it is a feature of the century in which we live that science ha s c ome to the ai d of the agriculturist, and that it h as b ecom e alm ost as necessary to the farmer to understand the p,inciples of chem i stry as to possess muscular strength to sow and reap. I would also retmark to thelgentleman from Auglaize, th at in o t her parts of tlde s tate, Agticulturh me ans s omething more tha n the raising of hoop poles. (La u i ghiter.) M r. QUIGLEY. It was the earnest purpose of the committee to report an article full in all its parts, and commensurate with the advanced position of society. Agricultural progress and good morals are intimately con nected with the subject of Education. A kdowledge of Chemistry and Ge ology for instance, are necessary to thxeagriculturist. Mr. REEMELIN. I should myself have risen and moved to strike out the sentence now in debate, -but I had al most come to the conclusion that this convention would never close its labors, and therefore, that all efforts to amend the Constitution would be wasted. But sir, the first seiiter.ce of this section is entirely too comprehensive inl its character; it needs definiteness and restriction. If we adopt it as a part, of the new constitution, the legislature will, under its general terms, have all power to do every thing within the range of Government. There is entirely too much power granted in the words "The General Assembly shall encourage, by suitable means, the promotion of moral, intellectual, scientific and agricultural improvemnent," and I shall vote to strike them from the section. The question being upon the motion to strike out the first sentence of the section, the same was disagreed to. The third section was then taken up, and is as folt lows: The General Assembly st. a'l make such provision by taxa~.ion and other me,ans (in addition to the income arising from the irreducible fund) as will secure a thorough and efficientt system of Common echoels, free to all children in the State. Mr. SAW YER. 1 Love to insert the word"' whiteb" between the word " the " an-d the word "children," so that the section will provide for the education of all the wohite children in the State. That is the only class! of children in the State of Ohio for whose eductionl II am willing to make provision in this Constitutionl. . NIR. TAYLOR. I confess, sir, that I am surprised. I did not expect that a mSotionl of this kind would be I i I I 12 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- W DNESDAY, DEcEMBER, 4. its and policy of that measure, because it originated with a whlig administration. and has received the emphatic sanction of a-whig President. I rejoice at the passage of this bill, because, in the meain, it is just,there may be some wrong features that need repealing -but the general scope and tendency of the law is salutary and politic-it met the exigencies of the times. It has already had the effect to drive thousands of nlegroes and mulattos into Canada. And I must also rejoice in the fact that the people of those provinces are becoming alarmed at the influx of blacks, which, to quote an expression of one of their newspapers, "is gathering over them like a dark cloud." And why do I exult at what they are beginning to consider as their misfortune? Because, sir, for years they have been inviting this emigration-because they have been encouraging the slaves of the South to desert their masters, not, as I believe, from any love to the blacks, but from a desire to create agitation and disturbance in this Republic. This they have effected too well. Thie nation is now shaken from centre to circumference by the. violent agitation of the question of slavery. The people of Canada are now reaping the bitter fruits of the seed sown by themselves. They are now overrun with an impoverished, if not a vicious, negro population. And because the fugitive slave bill hast had the eflect, in so great a measure, to rid us of the negroes which w'ere everywhere a pest in society, and has accuniulated them uponi the soil of Canada, I rejoice in its-passage. Mr. President, while I sit here, to assist in framing a Constitution for the people of Ohio, I must look first, to the interests of the white race. With this view, I will not encourage the emigration of blacks into this Stite, nor will I make it so much the interest of that class to remnain here, that there will be no disposition for them to emigrate to Liberia. And, in this I am actuated by no hlatred of the negro raceno desire to oppress them. I have declared before, and I repeat it now, that I am willing that tih e negro shall have evcrv privilege and every riglht that I myself enjoy. I arnm willing that he shall vote; I am willing that he shall be a justice of the peace, or governor, a judge, or a member of Congress. Aye, sir, I am willing that he shall be President of a R epubli c. I am willin g that the language of our sublime Declaration of Indepetdence, shall apply to the negro as well and as fully as to myself. But sir, I a m u nwillin g t ha t he shall enjoy these privileges in thist count ry, preoccupied a s it is, by a different and a hi gher race. I am w illing that he shall enjoy all these rights and privileges in his native country. Is there anything either unjust or inhumarne in this? To illustrate my meaning, let me give a homely but an appropriate anecdote. Two travellers journeying through a western state, stopped at a country tavern for dinner. Amongst tlhe dishes served lp on the occasion, was a plate of butter rather in the "melting mriood," and half composed of drowned flies. One of the travellers called the hostess and politely requested her to serve the flies on one plate and the butter on a separate dish leaving him to mix them in proportions to suit hifnself. {Laughter.] So, withI the negroes, I want them separate from the whites —for my own part, white society is good enough for me —those who prefer companionship with Africans might go where they are. I shalll ins~ist uponI protecting the negro inl the enjoy ment of all the rights now guarantied to him by the laws of Ohio. In this I will go as far as the gentle mnan from Erie,(Mr. TAYLOR,) but, at the same time, I declare mly unalterable resolution to hold out no inl ducemnents to their farther emigration into the State. Vir ginia and Kete tu ckv have passed stringent law,s, iakitng it a criminal offenc ree for free negroes to refnain ivt those States. The effect of thi s is to d rive a ll t he old, worn out, broken down slaves into the free States for support, af te r they have ceased to be productive property. This the y sha ll n ot do with impunity, if I can hell) it. If slavery is a blessing, let them have the whole of i t.- If they will eat the meat le t them pick the bones. One other remark, and I will take my seat. If yon will look at the statistic s furni shed by the recent cunsus, iou will find that in those count ies of this State, where abolitionism or free-soitism predominates, there are the fewes t negroes. It is in the South ern counties, bordering o n Kentucky, wher e the re is the l argest proportion of negroes and mulatt oes; and those c ounties are the least friendly to provisions for the encoiwragement of their emigration or remaining in the State. Either thle negroes do not know'their friend s, or else they will not go to th em. I hope th at the word's white " will be insert ed in this sectionw so that it will provide for the education of "all white childrenii." Mr. TO WNSHEND. I did not rise, Mr. Chairman, to reply to the remarks of tie iigentleman from Auglaize on the Fugitive. Slave Bill. pI don't s e what that bill has t o do with Common Schools i n Ohi o; but ir, as timat gentleman lias kindly given us his opinion, I w ill just take the op portunity to giv e mine, which is, that the Fugitiver Law i n all its distinctive features is utterly and teetotally dlamnable. But I ro se, Mr. Chairman, to correct one ort wo mistakes into which that gentleman has unfortunately fallen. The first relates to te f eelin gs w ith which the people of Canada regard the fugitives who escape from this coun try. I do not believe that the people tierere re alarme d at the "black cloetu d" of fugitives that comes up from the States. On the contrary, know that they treat them with great humanity, fur iiishinlg them with food, clotlliL, and employmnenlt. But, sir, Canadians feel, and have a right to feel indig[nation and contempt for the government oaud people, that, inl spite of the loudest pretentions to -freedom. and j ustice, nevertheless drives a portion of the human fam ily to talke refuge under the protection of Monarchical Institutions. The gentleman alluded to the temper of Canadian papers. I think, sir; I have seen the paper to which allusioni was made, and if I am correctly in formed, the articles are not written by anly native of Canada or Great Britain, but by a negro hater from thle United States. Another mistake which I wish to correct, is the as sertion that the property of negro and mulatto persons 0isnot taxed for school purposes. -There wasa timbe sir, when in this State colored persons were taxed for school purposes find excluded from the betnefits of our Common School System. Subsequent ly to that, the property of colored persons was exempt ed fronm such taxation. But two years ago, all the existinff laws, confeIring-especial privileges or imposing especial disabilities on such persons, were repealed. The School law passed at the same time, taxes all personsalike, but provides that in- certain cases, colore'd schools may be established separately, and the money raised from colored persons in such localities, may all be appropriated to the support of such schoolS. I -know, sir, that in the village where I livre, the children of colored persons are included in the general enumer ationl, and the tax raised from colored persons goes into the samve fund, and there is not plejudice against color enough to make the establishment of colored schools necessary, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, D;CEMBER, 4. of this report declares thatthe Legislature shall encourage moral, intellectual, and scientific improvements, and, by the insertion of the wor d " white " you have declared that a certaie class,shall not receive any of th e benefits a ri sing from the common school fund. View th is question as you will-as a matter of morality o r of politica l economy, a question o f right or expediency, the State would mat er ially suffer if a provisio n to exclude any clas s of chi ldren from the benefits of common schools, should be engrafted in the newe Constitution. The experience of the p ast has shown that morality and virtue keeps pace, wit h education and that degr adation and vice a re t he inevitable results of ignorance. Good policy, humanity, and above a ll, th e spirit of the Christian religion, demands that we should provide for the education of every child in the State. I shall theref or e vote -fo r th e pending mo tion, wiich would secure the benefits of commono school s to all,a leaving the details of the system- to be fixed by future legislatures, who can adapt the system to the ever varyinig circurmstan)ces of society MR. DORSEY. While I believe that the benefits of a system of common schools should be extended to all, I desire to avoid doing any thing to encourage the emigration of negroes into the state. I trust that before the close of this session, a provision will be adopted authorizing the Legislature to appropriate a sum of money annually, for the purpose of assisting negroes and mulattoes to leave the State. I would move to amend the amendment of the gen tleman from Gallia, (Mr. NASH,) by adding the follow luig after the word "schools," "and such schools shall be open for the reception of scholars, students, and teach ers of every grade, without any distinction or preference whatever, contrary to the intent of such provision." Mr. ARCHBOLD. hlough I feel reluctant to min gle at all in debate, I must express my dissent from the views as well as the amendment of the gentleman from Miami, and my hope that the original amend ment, (Mr NASH'S) will prevail. I am opposed to all minute legislation by this Convention. Mr. SMITH of Warren, called for a division of the question, and the same turninig first on the notion to strike out all after the word "School," I'he Convention agreed to strike out. TIhe question then being upon Mr. Dorsey's amend ment, Mr. MASON, moved as a substitute, the following: "Provision shall be made by law for the separate es tabtishmenit and support of schools for the instruction, of the children of black and mulatto persons." Mr. MANON, remarked that he should vote against the subtitute, the amendmernt,land the whole system, if it were not made plainer and more intelligible than at present. He desired a simple system of public instruction, and that schools should be kept for at least eight months in the year. Mr. MASON'S amendment was disagreed to. The question then being uponi the adoption of Mt' Dorsea's am.-ndment, the same was disagreed to. Mr. McCORMICK moved to amend by striking out the two first lines of the pending section, and amend so that the whole section would read as follows: SEC. 3. The permanent common school fund ~hall be aug mented by taxation and. otherwise to such sum as shall, id addition to the funds heretofore provided, produce an annual revenue of - dollars wrhich shall lbe annually applied to secure a thorough and efficient system of commnon schools, free to all the children in the State. Mir. NASH moved to fill the blank in Mr. lMcCor, mick's amendment, with the words "five hundred thonusand." Onl mrotion, the Committee rose and reported pro ares. And on motion, the Convention adjourned. The other mistake I wish to ribtice, is the assertion of the gentleman, that there are, comparatively, no colored persons in the free soil counties, and that therefore, all the sympathy felt in those counties, is for a class of persot.s which we, in such counties, don't have among us; and of the evils of whose )resence we know nothing. Now, sir, I think it will be conceded that we have some free soil in Lorain, and there, sir, we have quite a sprinkling of colored persons. I don't foretend to know the exact number, but I should think but little, if any, less than one hundred in the village where I live, and a still larger number in another village but a few miles off. The census of 1840 is in error on that subject, possibly because with us we don't call a man black, unless he is absolutely and unequivocally so; nor a man a mulatto unless we know enough of his pedigree to satisfy us that hlie is exactly half and half. But, sir. we have less prejudice against colored persons, not because we don't know them, but because we do. Inl Lorain county there is a Collegiate Institution, which has, in its several departments, about six hundred students, and to all the privileges of that Institution color. ed youth are adied o thd as f re ely as white. And, sir, I have at tended the Commencement Exercises of that .College r several years, se er yer, and I know that the young -celored men who have graduated have stood as high and acqu itt e d t hemsel ves as well as the other students in the same class. This year one colored young lady graduated firom the Ladies' Department, who was sec oind to none of the ladies that graduated at the same t ime, and the add ress delivered by her on tha t occasio n, would, thi ik, have done good even to the gentleman fln om Auglaize, c ould he hav e heard it. Ou r sympa thy, sir, for colored persons does not spriing from our ignorance of tihem, but fromT th e conviction that they are humanbeings,and therefor e entitle d t o all the rights anii ad sprivileges u t ait and sympathies due to humanity, and from tlheconiviction that they, equally with other men, are stusveptinle of intellectu al and n eoral elevation. Mr. TA YLOR. I w is h to call the att ention of the gentleman f rom Auglaize, to the langu ag e oel the sec orid section of the report of the Committee on Finance and Tuaxation. I t is as follows: "The Legislature shall provide by law, a usinfor t s rule of assessment and tax atioe, and shall prescribe such regulations as will secure a just valuation of all pr operty both real and personal." A nothe r wo rd as to the encomium pronounc ed o n the fugitive slave law by th e gent leman. As a State's right s man, lhe is bound to hold the proevisions of that bill unconstitutional. In support of this opinion allow me to quote a sent ence, for thea especial benefit o the sc benet o t gentleman, [Mr. SAWYE R,] fr om the Cincinn ati Enqui rer, lie orga n of the Democr atic p art y is this county if not of southerin Ohio. Thlie editor o thhat p aper, himself an ex-rember of Congress, says that the Con stitution grants to Cong ress n oer to power to legislate upon th e subject of th e re clamation of fugitive slaves; that the act of 1793 asrwell as of 1850, is unauthorized, consequently void, and a nullity upon the statute book. Mr. NASH move d to strike out all after the word "sctools," in the third sectio n,which would cu t off the w or ds, "free to all children iO t the State." He remark ed that he made theis motion in order to leave the ques tion free from all extraneous matters. M~r. BATES. I am not in the habit of making speeches, but I am desirous of expressing my views upon thle subject now before thle convention. I must express my regret and astonsishmenst at the tote given a few rniinultes since, by which the word " white " was inserted in the third section. I shall vote for the mo tion of the gentleman from Gallia to strike out all af -tar ttle word " schools," so that the section would pro vide a thorough and efficient system of common schools proscribing no class, and leaving the details of the sys teml to be fixed by the Legislature. The second section 13 14 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, DECEMBER 5. without the fostering care of an active, zealous and faithful Superintendant, laws for the promotion of education will be passed in vain. We were also impressed with the importance of giving the Legislature ample room to encourage education without any violation of the Constitution, and in the first clause of the Report, have left to the wisdom of future Legislatures to encourage, by suitable nieans,the promotion of moral, intellectual, scientific and agricultural improvemnent, language sufficiently liberal to meet the views of the most zealous and sanguine on the great cause of education. FIFTY-SIX DAY. THURSDAY, December 5, 1850. The Convention met, pursuant to adjournment;- Mr Vance of Butler in ttlhe Chair. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. HOGE. On motion of Mr. McCORMICK, the C:nventioii resolved itseli in'o a Committee of the Whole Jon the orders of the day. The question being on the amendment of Mr. Mc CORMIIC.K. Mr. MANON moved to amend the amendment, by adding the words "not less," before the words "a mil lion and a half;" v hich was agreed to. Mr. QUIGLEY. I am opposed to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Adams, to strike ouit the two first lines of the 3d section of the Report, referring to the'Reports of the Secret ar y of S tat e for the year ending November 15, 1849, tha t t he t otal amount of special Sc h oo l and trust funds paid out for School pur poses itn that year, a mounted to $295,224.47-1. The S ecretary of State in his report of aFebruary 1i5, 1849, states tha t from returns of 57 counties, many of those being i ncomplete and but few approximating to the requisite fullness,t and accuracy, the number of scholars enrolled w er e, Males 50,21 1-Females44,219. Total, 99,430. Frorm the abov e data it appears that each scholar received about $3 12 from the public funds. The Report of the Auditor of State for the udt o lyear 1849, pa ges 12 and 13, states that a large balaince for several years las remained in tsiu e Treasury after the distribution of $200,000, and there has beein no interest charged on thhe irreducible fund for Common Schools, or o0 the Surplus Revene re-paid by counties under the act of March 13, 1843. The Secretary of State in the report referred to, is of opinion that g ood p olicy and th e interests of the-S tate, requires th e School Fund to b e increased, and tha t 1-5 of a inill on the dollar, would,in addition to o the r funds existing,make it equal to $30f0,000 per antum. Thus, Mir. P r esident, by a gradual increase by t ax, as circutnsta ncbs m ay reirequire, schools c an be maintained. The Committee were, f rom the foregtoing data, and other data, not now at hand, l ed to the conclusion that all theaft wa s necessary i n the fundamental law, was provision for the safe keeping of the irreducible funds, atnd giant power to the Legislature to raise by taxation, as the growing population and other circumstances may from time to time require, and carry out in detail, such measu iares as will secure a a good and efficient sys. tern of Common School Education. I ask what is required in a fundamental law on this subject? I answer, to provide for the safe keeping of the present School Funds and such irredeemable Funds as by donation or otherwise may inure to the State for School purposes, and inculcating upon the Legislature the necessity of raising by tax or other. wise, funds, from time to time, sufficient to secure a thorough and efficient system of Common School Education. I would also ask permission to remark on the whole report, a privilege which has been granted to others on former occasions. So far as I was concerned in the report, I might here state, that I was impressed with the necessity of reporting In favor of a Superintendent, and giving latitude to the Legislature to furnish assistants to constitute an efficientt board of Superintendents, from the fact that some, and especially school laws making no provision for Superinten. dants, are liable to be neglected, and fall into disuse. The great and important business of securing a general education, and of conducting a well regulated system of common schools, requires per~severance, energy and vigilance, and will languish itsto neglect without a suitable supervision, and we may justly fear that I thank the gentleman from Hamiltoni for the cem pliment passed upon the talents of the Committee, in havingcomnorehended a whole Constitution with plen ary power in the above declaration, while at the same time we disavow exclusive originality in the declaration. I will for the gentleman's satisfaction show what com painy we are found in, upon this subject. In the Con stitution of the good old "Bay State," and also in the Constitution of the Granite State,are found the following declarations-more minute by far than that contained ill this report: "Wisdom and knowledge, as well as vtrtue, diffused gen erally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties, and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of ed ucation in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of the Legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interest of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the universi ty at Cambridge, public schools and griammnar schools in the towns, to encourage private societies and public institu tions for the-promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, com merce, trades, manufactures, and a natural history of the country; t,) countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and frugality, honesty and punctuality in their dealings; sincerity, good humor, and all social affections and generous sentiments amriong the people." The clause in the New Hampshire Constitution is as follows: "Knowledge and learniing, generally diffused through a community, being essential to the preservation of a free government; and spreading the opportunities and advantages of educationi through the various parts of the country, being highly conducive to promote this end; it shall be the duty of the legislators and magistrates, in all future periods of this government, to cherish the interest of literature and the sciences, and alliseminaries and public schools, to encourage private and public institutions, rewards, and immunities for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and natural history of the country; to countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and economy, honesty and punctuality, sincerity, sobriety, and all social affections and generous sentiments among the people." Thus it will be perceived that we-have no just claims to originality in this matter, a fact which materially detracts from the merit ascribed to us by the gentleman -otherwise I, for one, would have been proud of the eulogium. The report next provides for the security and safe keeping of the school funds now existing, or that may hereafter exist. The third section of the report directs the Legislature to make full and ample provision for securing a thorough and efficient system of common school educatioll, free to all the children in the State. The laiguage of this section is expressive of the liberality worthy a great State, and a great people. There is no stopping place here sh)rt of a common school education to all the children in the State. That this is an age of improvement and progress is admitted by all who are acquainted with thegreatand important transactions of the present century. That a spirit of education is OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, DECEMBER, 5. increasing in our beloved country is known from common observation, ard should not only be hailed, but cherished with delight. Science has dispelled the darkness from our land which for ages benighted the inhabitants of the old world, and gave the tyrant power to sway an iron sceptre over their subjects, an-d by discouraging instruction and keeping them in ignorance, perpetuated their servitude-continuedthem in degradation-shackled with despotic chains, not knowing that'thev were men capable of becoming free and governing themselves. This condition of things has become chauged-intelligence, the truth of divine revelation-liberty of conscience —self-government-freedom of the press -free and fair discussion, together with freedom of thought, have brought our free citizens from under the dominion of tyranny, declaring and demonstrating to the world that great truth, that men are born free and equal and capable of governing themselves. Had not knowledge been shed upon the human understanding, all would have remnained in the darkness of heathens ism, ana governed by superstition and fanaticism, our country would have still borne testimony to savage cruelty; the banks of our majestic Ohio would have been the theatre of the war dance and deeds of savage cruelty. The fair portion of our inhabitants would have been kept in as servile degradation as the aboriginal females of cur former wildness. But how great-how glorious the change. Instead of toiling under heavy loads heaped upon them by those task-rmasters under the name of fathers, brothers, husbands-doomed to linger out a miserable existence in privation, hardship and drudgery -what ease-what elegance-what happiness-what accomplishment is everywhere visible —what intelligence, what engaging loveliness beams from their eyes now become tie ornaments of society, charitable to a fault (if charity is susceptible of a fault,)- foremost in the enlcouragemrnent of all that is moral-religigious virtuous and good-calculated in a very eminent degree to solace and sustain their friends under every difficulty, to pour into their desponding souls the balm of consolation, to cheer them through life-administer comfort in sickliness and death, and to spread happiness and joy all around. Thus by civilization, religion and intelligence, are they prepared to carry out their high destiny as distinguis; ed ornaments in the social system. Nor does education lavish all its ennobling qualities upon the fair sex. The male sex are also elevated to a place among the intelligent throng-and although all may not arrive at the full course of classical education, yet in our land of liberty, all may be competitors on the great theatre of talent and advancement, knowledge and aggrandizement; each in his turn may be a philosopher, an orator, a sage, or a statesman. Iatelligence is the founidation-stone upon which this mighty Republic rests —its future destiny depends up. on the impulse, the action of the presetnt generation in the promotion of literature. Will we not, are we not, as patriots, bound in solemn duty to use our energies, our influence to forward this greatest of interests to present and future generations; and especially will the great State of Ohio fall short in so mighty an enterprise-so essential and indispensable a duty? tShall Ohio be remiss in an endeavor to compete with her sister States? Massachusetts and New York are ahead now, and several other States are rapidly gaining upon us, if not already in advance Arouse, then, citizens of Ohio, to your best interests, and show that you are not only able to compete in agriculture, in public improvemenot, in commerce-yes. and in the battle field,s with other States, but also in intelligence. Wie l it be necessary to appeal to th e generosity of hser citiz,ens to pay tax for such purposes? Certainly not. Her noble sons would blush to hesitate-and her yet more philanthropic daughters will become tributary to the great cause which leads to the development of the rich resources of nature-prepares the mind for the investigation of philosophy, morals, religion and virtue, and enables it to study nature in all its beauty and grandeur, and realize the important work that has been done, and still going on, in making the wild er n es s a nd s oli t a ry places gla d, a nd the desert lo bud and blossom as the rose, and not only so, but to elevate the thoughts above the home of t he s unbeam, and contemplate the Creator and meditate on things Heavenly and divine. Prompted by such exalted motives and pleasing anticipations. taxation will not be considered onerous. Massachusetts raises annually for school purposes between seven and eight hundred thousand dollarsNew York some eight hundred thousand; Connecticut about ten thousand dollars for common and Normal schools. Pennsylvania appropriates above seven hundred thousand, more. than five hundred thousand dollars of which is raised by taxation. Mississippi and Louisiana are proportionally liberal. Other States are fast on the, advance, and I ask again, can it be that Ohio will remain an exception, and not assist in so, great an enterprise' The answer, I doubt not, will be returned-she will not. The fourth section provides for the safety of school funds against sectarian innovation, and forever bars access to exclusive control by sectarianism, and needs no comment. Thus having briefly given the views which governed me in this report, and hoping that it will be found to contain all that is necessary in a constitutional provision to secure the best interests of education among us, it is submitted to the consideration of the committee. Mr. McCORMICK wished to be heard upon the amendment, not upon his own account, but for the sake of those.in the future who might desire to be benefited by tae laws of the State, for the promotiou of Education. The day in which he himself was to be benefited by such laws was long past. He spoke f"or those who in all future time are to constitute the people, the law makers the.members of the Governmnent of Ohio. We may construct the laws of the State as we please; unless the minds of the people are educated, the legisla tion is in vain. As we improve in general intelligence we shall approximate to that point where legislation may be dispensed with. Educate the mind of mall, and the heart, and little legal restraint upon his conduct will be required. The amendment under consideration was offered Witt, this view. The object sought to- be attained is he establishment of a permanent and efficienlt system of education in the State, which shall constantly furnish a supply to the ever increasing demand for educatioII in the State. The suIIm proposed in it, looks perhaps large to some. It is in fact too small to answer the purpose If the statistics of the report of the Secretary of State can be relied on, there are, instead of fifty four thousand, as has been stated, over three hundred and sixty seven. thousand children in Ohio. To educate this imnmense number, there is provided, under our present law, the astonishing sum of two hundred and nin~ety-five thousand dollars —almost the enormous amount of three quarters of a dollar -a piece annually for the purposes of education. Acid under this state of circumnstances, gentlemen of this Convention sit dlown with conscience satisfied at I4avilugprovided efficiently for so importcnt an interest. Mr. QUIGLEY interposed some remarks nlot under-: stood by the; reporter. Mr. Mt:GORMsIGK, continued. Genltlemena of the Conlvention1 seem to be unlwillinjg lo fix ally feature of 15 16 1OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES TaURSDAY, DECEMBER 5. a system of public education in the Constitution. They Mr. HAWKINS liked the section, iii the maiu, as it~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mr. HAWKINS liked the section, in the main, as it is. He thought with a little modification, it would suit the opiniolns of nearly every member. Enjoin upon the Legislature the duty of establishing an efficient system, and we shall have done our duty. He agreed is the main with the remarks of the gentleman from Adaps (Mr. McConMIcs:,) upon the importance of education; but he had not been in the habit of esteemining the morals of New England, so far as it results from eniare learning, so very high. He admitted their learning, but doubted whether, after all, in so high a sense, they could be considered and educated people. He was apposed to too great minuteness in the detail of our constitution; but at the same time we are warranlted by public sentimnent in requiring at the hands of the G1neral Assembly a full, complete and efficient system of public education. Mr. RANNEY thought the subject a very impor tan one, and wor thy of all t he consideration that has bee n given it. He concurred he a rti l y in the plan of the gen leman from Adams, (Mr. MCCORMICK.) He did not profess to say what,the minimum sum should be; but that a sum should be enjoined to be raised, sufficient ,for the purpose, he had no doubt. The gentlemtau from Gallia, (Mr. NASH) was opposed to too great par. ticularity ill thie provisions of this Constitution. That was the reason why he objected to portions of this re port. There is too great- generality in it. It recom mends somethinLg, suggests much, and providesnloth ing at all. What are we here for? Merely to declare in a few words the general topics upon which a Leg islature shall act? or to fix a formof government? If the former is only our duty, we may as well go home again. It is unnecessary for us to declare that the Legislature shall establish a Judiciary systems They know that already., We are to do more. lure are to mark out the boundaries of a Legislative, Executive, and Judiciary system, and to define and limit the pow| ers of a government. Sow I came here to aid in es tablislhing a legislative department of this governme nt, ill the same mnainer as any other branch of the govern merit. I desire to lay a plan such as within certain limits the Legislature shall be bound to carrv out. It is clearly and unquestionably right that government has a right to establish a system of education that shall reach every poor, every ragged, every destitute child in the State; and if we believe that the people are desirous to establish such a system, let us go forward and do it, and have no fears the people will not respond to ,it with enthusiasm. I go for an efficient provision, not for any extravagance. Mr. TAYLOR said, his objection to the amendment was, that if we placed any sum in the constitution, it might be looked upon as limiting the legislature, who night be disposed to give more liberally. It seemed to him, that there was a prospect that the people would progress faster than we anticipate, and would make a far mnore ample provision than any constitutional sumn that we are able to fix. He hoped therefore that no sum would be fixed, but that it would be left to the progressive spirit of the age and of the people. Let there be a guaranty that the school be kept open a specific time,and the objects sought would be gained as far as we are able to secure them. Mr. McCORMUICK moved to fill the blank in his amenldmenut with the sum of one million dollars. Mr. REEMEL1N said that he had slot desired to take part in this debate, but he desired to correct the ideas of s-ome gentlemen, upon the subject of what Ohio has doze in the cause of education. He ventured to assert,,that in no commlunity in the world, has there been so much dolne, in properlion to the meoans, as -in she Stats of Ohio.' He had ever taken a fgreat~interest in education, and had ever been a laborer ianthk cause, a system of publi c educa tion i n the Constitution. They desire to leav e everything to b e f ixed by th e General Assembly. But let us look at past le etg i slation done upon this subj ect. T he pre sen t Con st itution imposes upon the Legislature the duty of establishing a system of public education; and in forty-eight fyears it has succeeded in bui l ding up a plan of benevolence, whi(h gives t he amount of seventy-five cents per annum, for s chool purposes, to each child in the State. How long will it take for active legislation of this character, to ra ise a su m sufficient to educate all the children in the Statesf w ho, a in fact, ins tead o f three h)undred antd sixty seven thou sand, number over five hundred thousand. H e d id insist that we should act upon this measure,and act upon it advisedly. We have been deceived by a rapid series of legislative systems, acsh less effic ienth and valuable thatt its predecessor, and the last svstem brought into ex st istence is far roinfer ior i the length of time which it fur nishes schools, and il efficiency, to its pred e ces sor, or any prior lav. He did not propose by this amendaierrt t o limit the amount to be appropriated by t he Legislature for educational purposes. He de sir ed only to establish a minimum. One and a half mill io n s would, at the present time, be about three dol lars for each sclolar inll the S tate- as small an amount as could by a ny possibility secure the nec essary result. Looking at the sum itself, it s eems l arge; but when we look at the magnitude o f the cause, and its impor tance, it is no t large. Massachusetts gives a la ger sum in proport ion to the number; Connecticut also a larger; and what is the r esult? It is a recomnmendationn-a letter of credit to a man, t h o have been born and edu cated upon the soil of Massachusetts. I t is well known, that witi a higher grade of intelligence they ihave far less crime to punish —less public and private follies to repent and be ashamed of. H e woul d mak e t he S tate of Ohio Isuperior even to Massachuse tts. He would devote for that purpose, all the funds that can be raised. He would cut do wn, as far as possible, all the other expens es of the g overnment, until twe can a ccumulate a fund of thirty, forty, or even fifty millions, within t he coming half century-a sum whi ch, h owever enormous it may seem, is not, in co Hmparison with the importance of tie cause, too large. In behalf, therefore, of ourselves, pIosterity, and future history, let us make adequate provisions to supplv this important, thi s primnary necessity. Mr. McCORMICK, in order to suit the views of some other of the frie nds of the pri nciple involved in his am end ment, moved to strike out the words, "one and a half millions," from the amend m ent, leav ing a blank. Mir. MANON d id n ot su ppose that the acts of the Convention in this behalf w ould do much good; but he w ould do all in his power to educate the c hild ren of Ohio. ieIe had head eaof a gentleman who, traveling among the barren hills of Vermont, inquired of a boy, by the road-side, what they raised. He answered"iMeltn." He wished to do the same in Ohio. Mr. NASkI said that Efter awhile all these things will practically be controlled by public op in ion. If legislation is against public opinion, it is powerless, and in such a case you array public opinion against you, and against this Constitution, and will sink it and the swstemn together. Leav2e such questions to the General A~ssembly, and that body will act under the influence of that general sentiment, Wfhicho after: all, is the great sanction of the law of the land. If we descend to legislation upon mere questions of policy, we shall inevitably defeat the very object which we seek: to promote.:If enough has not been hitherto done for edu'cation, it isbecause public sentiment has not demanded it; and if we attempt to go in advance of that sentiment, we shall not be followed, and shall be force~d torotreat. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TiURSDAY, DE(CEMrR 5. and he was desirous to state what has been th(e great impediment to a more rapid advance of the cause among us. One great reason is the rivalry of schools, established by different sects. Another reason is the want of efficitnt teachers. These difficulties are to be overcome by time; and we are not prepared to establish that comprehensive and complete systerm of education, which we shall eventually come to. He desired to say to those gentlemen who speak so poorly our progress in education, and too highly ot that of Massachusetts, that they do injustice to our State. Let them institute a comparison between Massachusetts at fifty years of age, and Ohio; and hIis word- for it our systemr would be found as good as theirs He thought the time had not come for the elaboration of a perfect system of education in Ohio, and that by fixing provisions in the Constitution, that it may be necessary to alter in future, we shall involve ourselves in a dilemma very unfortunate, and from which it will be difficalt to escape. There are also many reasons wily a general system, established Aby general rules, v without exceptions, [night be injurious to tlheainteres's of some portions of the State. For instance, in this city, it would be better to leave it all to, the local authorities. He wanted to see such a system that should present the means of education to every child in Ohio; but let us not go too fast. Mr. R. continued by saying that he hoped all thie amendmlnents would fail, and that he hoped all attemptsi to create a system would be left to the General Assembly. MR. CURRY gave notice that as a member of the Committee on Education, he had presented a minority report. He proposed, at the proper time after gentleman had, as fair as they chose, perfected the report under consideration, to move to strike it all out, and to I substitute his own in the place of it. MR. M1'CORMIICK addressed the committee on the subject of the funds to be appropriated for the purposd of keeping up the schools of the State. lie proposed a .consolidation of all the general and local funds of the State, and distribution of the amount equally among the children of the State. The question being on filling the blank with the sum of one millions the same was disagreed to. MR. LARSH moved to fill the blank with the sum of seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. He thought the whole distributable fund of the State was about that sum already; arid that if we inserted a smaller sum we should be below the presentability of the State. MR. LEADBETTER was opposed to fixing any sum. fie thought that if the Convention proceeded to establish an expensive system in tihe Constitution, they, would so load that instrument as to prevent its accept- alice with the people. Hte believed that any attempt to equalize by consolidation the local funds of the State, would enlist numbers against the Constitution, who would drag it down in spite of the efforts of its friends. He held that we were, as a primary obligation bound to discharge the obligations of the State, and that it is neither right nor expedient to load the people with too heavy a burden of taxes, even for educational purpose.. MR. LEADBETTE:R gave notice that after this and she minority report had been discussed, he should present a.substitute for both. - R The question being on filling the fblanlk with sevens hu-ndredi and fifty thousand, was disagreed to. The question being on filllingg the blank with -five hundred thousand dollars, was disagreed to. The question then being on striking out the words proposed in the amendment; the same was disa'ged.to. Mr. itEEMEfLIN m oved to strike out of t ehe fourth section, in the firstS line, the word "exclusive," and to substitute the word "any" ia its place, which was agreed to. Mr. LARSH moved the following amendment, to come in at the end of the same section: Or of any of the sch ools, seminaries or inst itut ions of learning, under the pat r on age of th e S tate. Mr. MASON hoped that before this arn endment was ad o pte d, th e commiittee would exac mine and soee what it was doing. This almenidrmient proposes to extend the provisions of the section which provides that all religious denomiceatiosmo-the whol e religious co andniity iin f a ct, shall be forever exc luded from ally participatione,n o fin( the school fund of t he State; aid that, b ecause they are religious. You take care of the convicts in y our penitentiary, and provide for their religious and qnoral instr uction; butt e re f the relig ious of the coultry are as a class proscribed. You may sa y that you do not intend any such thing; but if you do it, it is of little consequence what is initenidad. Mr. NASH did not understand the section as it was interpreted by the gentleman from Clark (Mr. MAsON.) Every citizen has, and will have a right to partcipate in the means of education; but the intention of the provision merely is, that no organized body of christians, as such, shall be entitled to lay its hand upon the school funds of the State, anid appropriate it tb- the furtherance of its owIn peculiar views. He did not understand that it goes any further than the old conistitution. The amendment of the gentlem6-an from lreble, (Mr. 1,Ansf,) merely adds a few superfluous words to what? There is in the section no exclusion of any individual. It means merely, that neither the Presbyterian, the Episcopalian, nor the Catholic church sliall have the power to seize upoil the public fundsand appropriate lhem to suit itself. Mr. DORSEY agreed with the gentleman from I Clark (Mr. MASON) in his construction of the section, The presidents oe our universities cannot, under this provision, be members of any church. It goes further. It uses the word "party," and it would seem that no niember of,any party —no whig, democrat or free-soil er canl participate in the benefits of the funid. Thi gentlemen would seem to exclude all sects and parties, and have no use, for the money. The anmenidment was then disagreed to. 'Mr. HUNT moved a reconsideration;of thevoteagreeing-to the amendment of Mr. Reemelin, to strike out of the fourth section, the word'I exclusive," and substitute the word " any." Mr. REEMELIN thought, in the interpretation which gentlemen had givenl to the amenidmnent proposed by him, they had discovered a mare's nest.- It Y would bear no such construction. No boy who went to school would ever be inquired of as to his religion. No one would say to a Presbyterian schoolmaster, go away, you have no business here. No sect or party have, or can have any exclusive right. Any boy who had been one hour at a common school, would know better than to believe any such story as this. MIr. DORSEY inquired if the words "any right," , does not exclude all persons of whatever religion? Mr. REEMELIN did not believe that his amend ment excluded any child in Ohio. Mr. MORRIS moved that the committee urise and report —lost on division; ayes 46, nays 18. Mr. Reemelin offered the following resolution: JResolved, TFhat the General Assembly of this State lbe respectfully requested uto make the necessary prov~isons for printing and transmitting to this body, fer the use of the individual members thereof, a proper number of copies of the reports of the different State offices, and of such other matters as may be deemed proper for the information of this Onmotion of-M~r. Reemelin said resolution was committed to the select -committee onl printing. l is OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURsDAY, DECEM'BER 5. The question being first on the motion to strike out the original report, the same was disagreed to. On motion, the committee rose and reported. Mr. NASH moved that the report be re-committed to the same committee which originally reported it. Mr. STIDGER remarked that so far as he was concerned as chairman of that committee, he hoped that the motion of tile gentleman. from Gallia would not prevail. Upon a motion to re-commit, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, res~ltedyeas 47, nays 40, as follows: YE.&s-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble. Bates, Brown of Athen s, BroWn of Carroll, Case of Hocking,Curry,Ewart, Farr, Florence,Gillett,Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Ha'wkins, Henderson, Horton, Hunter, Jones, K:rkwood, Larsh, Leech. Lidey, London, Mason, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, N,Drris, Patterson, Reemeiin, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize. Smith, of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stijwell, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of btark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Wilson-47. -NAYS-Messrs. Blickensderfer, Cahill, Chamber-s, Chaney, stook, Dorsey, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck tHolmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson' Kennon, Lawrence, Larwill, Leadbetter, Manon, Mitchell, Morris, Peck, Quigley, Ralnney, Riddle, Reol, Sawyer, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbens, Stidger, Taylor, Townshend, Vance of Champaign, Williams, Woodbury, Worthington1-40. So the motion prevailed. Mr. STIDGER. In-as-much as the Convention has seen fit to re-commit this report, I trust that it will accompany i t with instructions. Mr. HOLT. The request of the Chairman of the committee on Education is a very reasonable one, and I will move that1the committee be instructed to incorporate into the original report the 4th section of the, hainority report. I will add no argument in support'of this motion in addition to the able ones of the gentlemen from Adams andTru mbull(A{essrs. MCoolmcandRAN,EY.,) The section has just been read at the Clerk's desk.' Mr. HUMPHRE~ILLE. I move to strike out the proviso in the section which the gentleman from Mont.omery moves to have incorporated in the original report. The-words to be - stricken out are "provided hat black and mulatto youth shall not attend the ~chools for,white youth, unless by common consent." Mr. CHANSEY, objected to this manner of intructing the committee. Pending the motions to reoommir the report it Would have been more proper to hove these instructions. Mr. HOLMES. I'move to amend the instructions r strikin~ out of the section proposed to be incorPoated, the words "unless,by common consent." Much [ifficulty might arise in -districts having a mixed opulation. Mr. CURRY. The words now proposed to be tricken out were not adopted without much delibertion. I was of the opinion, and am still, that such a Proviso could work no harm, and might-be the means f securing the education of many black children in Listriots where no repugnance would be felt to their ntering the common schools. Without detaining the ]onvention at this time with an argument, I will state Lsingle fact which occured not long since unnder mny own observation. A school district, in which the louseholders are as respectable and intelligent as any nithin the broad limits of this State,/icontains some ive or-six families of co-or~ed persons, but slot enough ) justify the establishment of a separate school for he instruction of their children. As the law Know rands, it was left to the option of the inhabitants of he district to admit te colored children into the )nramon schools or extclude them. Int the language AFTERNOON SESSION. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. On motion by Mr. B ARNETT of MontgoJmery, the Convention resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, and resumed the consideration of the report of the Standing Committee on Education. peI The pending question being upon the motion of Mr. HUNT to reconsider the vote by which the word "exclusive" was stricken out of the fourth section, and the word "any" substituted. The section, as -, amended, reads: "No religious sect, or party, shall ever' have any right to, or control of, any part of the common school funds of this State." The motion prevailed, and the vote was reconsid ered. Mr. DORSEY moved to amend by striking out the words, "or party," and insert the words, "or sects," aid remarked that this would obviate the objections of the gentleman from Haimilton, [Mr. REEMELIN,] and of the gentleman from Gallia, [Mr. NAsH,] who have suggested that, while no one sect would be allowed: to control common schools, a combination of sects might. A division of the question being demanded, and the same turning first upon the motion to strike out the words, "or party," the siaie was disagreed to. Mr. DORSEY'S motion to insert the words, "or sects," was then agreed to. Mr. CURRY. I will now propose a substitute for the report under consideration. I move to strike out c the whole of the original report, and substitute the I following: i SEc. 1. Religion, morality and knowledge being essen tially necessary to good government and the happiness o mankind, schools and the means of instruction shall forever be encouraged by legislative provision not inconsistent with i the rights of conscience. I Src. 2 It shall be the duty of the General Assembly l o provide by law that the principal of all funds arising fro Mi the sale of lands heretofore or hereafter granted or donated, from any quarter, for educational purposes, together with the p principal which may be realized from donations of personali property anti money for like purposes, and the Surplus r Revenue deposited with this State by the United States (un- t til reclaimed,) shall be preserved inviolate and undimiinished t and that the interest and income arising from such funds s shall be faithfully applied to object or original gift, or grant; Provided, the General Assembly may at their discretion, ap. s propriate all or only a part of the proceeds of the -Surplus C Revenue to educational purposes. SEc. 3. The General Assembly shall provide for the elec- n tion of a Superintendent of Schools and Seminaries of learn. ing, under the care or patronage of the State, They may b also provide for the election or appointment of such assistant superintendents or other officers as may be necessary to r carry into effect a thorough and uniform system of Common d School Education; and they shall prescribe by law the terms p of office, compensation, powers and duties of all officers elected or appointed under the authority of this section. SEC. 4. The General Assembly shall provide by law a sys- 8 tem of Common Schools, and permanent means for the sup- al port thereof, by which a school shall be kept up in each school district in this State not less than six months in each p year, and which shall be open to youth of all classes, under of such regulations as may be prescribd by law; Provided, that d black and mulatto youth shall not attend the schools for e white youth, unless by common consent. Sec. 5. Provision shall be made by law for the establish- ment and support of as many Normal Institutes as the Gen- a eral Assembly may findto be necessary for the thorough in- on struction of t,rofessional teachers of the Common Schools of ho this State; and alt persons applying to any of said Institutions for admission and instruction, shall be requiredbefore admis w sion to give such assurance as may be specified by law, o! five their intention to devote themselves to teaching, as a pro. to fssion. th SEc. 6. No religious sect-or party shall ever have exclu- st sivc iight to, r c ontrol of any part of the Common SFchool tE lunid,or of any ol the SchoOls,,'yzilnaries. or lusuitutiona of - earuing under tile care or patronage of this State. a c cC On motion, the committ-e ro.3e a,,ad reported. On motion, the Convention to k a recess. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, DECEMBER 5. of the f ourth sectin of the minority report on educa tion, it was left to,the common consent" of the pe o ple, and sir, by common conse nt the co lored childre n were adrnitted. and allowed to participate in the ad vantases of t h e schools. And it seems to me that this matter should thus be left to the decision of the people of the several districts. On the one h and, I would not compel the admission, into common scho ols, of the children of c olore d persons, nor would I shut them out in all cases. In this case I th ink it would b we ll th at the re shou l d be some relaxation from the usual policy adopted toward t he black population of the State ua relaxation in so far that their children might, by c ommon consent, be admitted to common schools. The question being upon the mo tion of Mr. HOLMES [wh ich was that the 4th section should provide that bla ck and mulatto y outh s hould not attend the s chools -for white youth] and the yeas and nave being demanded upon the samte, were ordered and resulted yeas 34 nays 53, as follows: o zf-t -Messrs. Archbold, Case of Hocliing,Cha ney, Dorsey Florence, Gillett, Green, of Ross, Groesbeck, Harlan Henders,on, Holmes, Hootman, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, La wrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Patterson, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers Stebbins, Stiager, Tihompson of Shelby, Thompson of Starl, andl Wilson-34. NAYS-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown -of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cabill, Chambers, Cook, Curry, Ewart, Farr, Graham, Gray, Green oflDefiance, Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Haw kins, Holt, Horton, Humphreyille, Hunter, Kirkwood, Larsh Mar.on, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McClouc, McCormick Nash, Norris, Peck, Quigiey, Ranney, Reeoelin, Scott o H-Iarrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Taylorf Towinshenr, Vance of Butler, Vance of Champaign, Wil, iams, Wrodbury anid Worthington-53. So the motion was disagreed to. The question then being upon the motion of Mr. HUMP'mREVILL-1 to strike out the proviso, of the fourth section of the minority report, which section it was now proposed to incorporate in the report of the comnmittee. Mr. FLORENCE. As I understand the proviso, it that [)lack and mulatto youth shall not attend the schools for white youth, unless by common consent. The PRESIDENT. That is the language of the proviso. Mr. ARCHBOLI). As a member of the General Assembly at t(ie present time, I should vote for a law providing that the children of white parents should be kept separate, in the common schools, from the children of black people. I should do this because I am convinced that public sentiment demands it. As a member of the Constitutional Convention I think that public sentiment demands the separation of the two classes of children, but sir, that public sentiment may change, anid when that change comes I am willing to submnit to it. Personally, as Mr. Clay said of the admission of Texas, I might have no objection to the admission of colored children to common schools, but as a representative of the people I am bound to defer to their wishes. I am opposed to this minute legislation in the Constituttion for the reason that we cannot make such legislation apply to the ever varying circumstanices of 1ile. This question of the participation of negroes and mnulattoes in the benefits of the common school system should be left to the Legislature. Mr. MIANO3N. It seems to me that the objections of the gentleman last up are not well taken. Why sir, the object of the proviso to the fourth section of the minority report, which is now moved as all amendment to the mnajority report, is to leave this whole mnatter to the deeision of the people in each schlool district of the state. 1 am ias favor of that proviso. I - Mr. TOWNSHEND. I shall vote for the motion - (Mr. HfUMPHREVILLE'S,) to strike out the entire pro viso now under consideration. I regret to see this - subject connected with the proposition to instruct the t Committee on Education. Our present Constitutionl makes no distinction, ill this regard, between whites [ and blacks, and I trust that a C-nvention called teo, form the organic law, will not go backward. In the t county of Lorain there were but two votes cast against the calling of this Convention —if it provides f,r the exclusion of the children of one class of the citizens of f Ohio, from the benefits of Commono Schools, the vote against the adoption of the new Constitution will, in all probability, be as unanimous for the rejection of tilhe new Constitution as it was for the calling of this Coni vention. t The yeas and nays being demanded and ordered on Mr. HUMPHREVILLE'S motion, to strike out the proviso from the fourth section of the minority report, resulted yeas 27, nays 61, as follows: YE~A.-Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Bates, Brown of Athens' Cook, Ewart, Farr, Gray, Green ol Defiance, Green of Ross - Gregg, Harlan, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Lawrence L- eech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Morehead, Nash, Quigley, Ranney Scott of Harrison, Stickney, Taylor, Townshend and Wood bury-27. NAYs-Messrs Archbold, Barblee. Barnet of Montgomery, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, f Chambers, Chaney, Curry, Dorsey, Florence, Gillett, Graham, f' Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmnes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Johnsoon, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Loudoni, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, McCormick Norisr, Patterson, Peck. Reemelin. ' Riddle, Roll Sawyer Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highlandl, Smith of Warren, Smith of W, andot, Stanton, Stebbens, Stilwell, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Vance of ( hampaigin, Warren, Williams, Wilson and Worthington-61. So the motion was lost. The question next recurred on the motion of Mr. i HOLT to instruct the Committee on Education to in corporate the fourth section of the minority Report, in the Report submitted by the majority. Mr. SAWYER moved to lay the motion to instruct on the table. - Upon which motion the yeas and nays were de manded, and being ordered, resulted, yeas 67, nays l21 -as follows: Yeas-Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Brown of Athens, Cahill, ase of Hocking, Chambers, Chan.ey Cook, Dorsey, Farr, Floreice, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance Green Gf Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan HolmIes Hootman, Hortin, Humphrevilla, Hunt, Hunter ohnso.oi, es. Kennon, Kirkwooa, Lawrence,Larwill, L eech, Leadbe,ter, Loudoi, Morris, McCLoud, Nash, Norris, Patterson. I eck, Quigley, cReerrelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of A.u,laize, Sellers, Smith of Highland,s, Smith of Warren, Stebbins, Stilwell., Stickney, Stidger, Struble, traylo. Frnompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshenrd, Vance of Bptler, Vance of Champaign,Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, and Worthing-;; ton-67. NAys-,NMessrs. Barbee, Blickensderfer, Bro wn of Carroll Curry, Ewart, Hamilton, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Larsh Lidey, Mlanon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCormick tanney, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton Warren-2- 1. So the motion prevailed, and the proposition to instruct was laid oil the table. Mr. MASON moved to i nstructtheCommittee to incorporate in their Report the fifth section of the. .minority Report, which is as follows: SEc..5. Provision shall be made lby law for the establish ment and support of as mnany Normnal Inlstitultes as the General Assembly may find to be necessary for the thnoough iaetruction of prlIessio nan te ach er s Of the Commoi echoyls of this State; and all persons applying to any of saidt Institutes for adlmissionl and instruction, shall be reqluiredl before admission to give such assurance as may be specified by la w-of their intention to dlevolt; themselves to teaching, as a&proesIsion. I c L s 19 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FI,IDAY, DECEM,BER 6. RMr. MAO upre i oini ag- M.RIDEsi eddti ihave ots [Mr. 31ASON supported his motion in all argumnient of some length, but was too imperfectly heard to be correctly reported.] dear. The veas and nays being demanded upon Mr. MASON'S motion, resulted, yeas 20, nays 57-as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Curry, Dorsey, Farr, Gillett, Gray, Hamilton, Holt, Horton, Hunter, Larsh, Mason, Norris, Scott of Harrison, Stanton Taylor and Townshend-20. NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Cahill, tase ofHocliinig, Chambers, Chaney, C.ook, Ewart; Florence, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesb eclk, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Holmes, HuXnphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Morehead, Morris, Nash, Patterson, Peck, QuNigley, Ra nney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stebbens, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Tahompson of St eark, Va nce of Butler, Vance of Champaign Warren, Wi lson, Woodbury, and Worthington —57. ST the mt)tion was l ost. On motion,the Convention adjourned. FIFTY-SEVFENTH DAY. FRIDAY, DECEM.BER 6, 1850, 9 A. M. s he Conv ention met. pur suan t to adjo urnment; Mr. VLANCE of Butler in the chair. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. RICE. Mr. GREGG, from the Select Committee upon the subject of ascertaining the best means of procuring an ab stract of the cenasus of the State, made thei following report: The select committee to ascertain the best mode of procuring an abstract of the census returns of the State of Ohio for the year 1850, have asc ertained the fact that saidl returns are deposited in the office. of the Secretary of State, as fast as received by the Marshal, and therefore recommend the passage of the following resolution: Resolved, That the Secretary of State be requested to furnish an abstract of the population of the State of Ohio, for the year 1850, by townships, wards, counties and cities, as returned under the act of Congress for taking the seventh census and deposited in his office by the United States Marshall, giving in separate columns the white and colored population. The resolution was agreed to. Mr. GROESBECK offered for adoption the fo!lowitlg resolution. which was agreed to: Resolved, That the Sergeant-at-Arms be directed to furnish suitable accommodations to such newspaper reporters as attend to report our proceedings. Mr. VANCE of Bu tier, asked that his colleague, Mr. King, who is absent from his seat in the Convention, in consequence of illness in his family, be excused from attendance; which was agreed to. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention resolved itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. STANTON in the Clair. The order of the dav, being Report Number one of thie Standing Committee oil Bankinlg and Currenicy, was taken up and considered, ily sections; and there being to amendments offered thereto, On motion of Mr.:;AWYER, the committee rose and reported the same back to the Convention; whereupn On motion of Mrii. M'CORMICK, the said report was }aid on the table. Ont motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention again resolved itself into a (;ommittee of the Whlole, on1 the orders of the day, Mr. HUMPHREVILLE in the chair. The business in order being Report Num~ber one of th~e SEelect Committee on the subject of Capital Punishment, Mr. RIDDLE moved to strike out the section. Mr. RIDDLE said he did this with a view to test the sense of the Convention upon the principle which it declares. SEC..'Human life shall ever be held inviolate. The true object of punishment being, in addition to the security of society, to reform and not to exterminate mankind; hui man life shall never be taken as a punishment for crime; but the highest punishment inflicted for crime shall be imprisonment during life in the State Penitentiary."' Mr. LAWRENCE hoped that the motion to strika out would not prevail. He was not disposed to treat so nimportant a question in so summary a manner. There are many people il the state, who feel an intense interest i n the principle it involves. He therefore, on the part of such, felt it his duty to ask, at the hands of this body, a fair and candid discussion-such an one as its importance demands at the hands of a dignified and intelligent deliberative assembly. Are not human lives sacred? Is it not the duty of government to preserve them, where their preservation is consistent with the common safety! He believed that the people of the stale were willing to come up to the'priweiples of the report; and he desired, most earnestly, that this Convention should not be behind the people at large, in progress, in a cause appea-liug so largely to the better feelings of humanity. Mr. HAWKINS supposed the object of the motion of the gentleman from Hlamilton (Mr. RIDDLE) was to elicit remarks from members of the Convention. For himself, he concurred in the views of the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LAWRENcE.) He believed that the question whether capital punishnment should be inflicted for any crime known to our laws, if submit ted to the people by a direct vote would be lnegatived. This is said to be an age of progress; and public opinion is unquestionably progressive upon this subject. It has come up during several sessions of the General Assembly, and the sentiment in its favorhas evidently been on the advance. Thle proposition has gained friends. The authority to inflict punishment by death, is by a large portion of the community, considered doubtful. Thousainds have been led to reflect upon the subject, by the disgraceful exhibition of vice at times of public executions. They have frequently been most terrible and revolting. The object of punishment is to reform and not to exterminate mankind. Modern humanity refuses to look with malignity upon the offender, and turns a way in disgust from the mere pursuit of revenge. In this respect, mankind has progressed. The bloody codes of barbarous age'; are looked upon with horror and detestation; and men seek to discover excuses for , the criminal, whose punishment, on account of its barbarism, is revolting to their feelings of humanity. The magnitude of the punishment operates against the chances of conviction. Jurors become the inventors of excuses, instead of the impartial tryers of an issue of fact. Pleas of insanity intervene to defeat the ends of justice; and if the criminal has onl a plenty of money, the eloquence of a well paid advocate, and the technicalities of an artificial system of jurisprudence conspire to ensure his immunity, in too many cases of actual guilt. It is said by those who have investigated the subject, that in countries where the experiment of the abandonment of the death penalty bas been tried, the effects have been extremely happy. Crime has not increased, nor have criminals multiplied. In fact it would seem that nothing was better calculated to produce thatbarbarisni of sentiment, which renders easy the perpetration of crime, than the exhibition to the public gaze, of t those scenes of punishment incident to the extreme penalty of the law; and we are not unjustified by past iM history in supposing that in this case the vengeance of 20 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER 6. the law has a tendency to produce a repetition of the offence. Mr. McC LOUD was in some doubt whether the progress spoken of by the gentleman from Morgan (Mr. HAWKINs) was after all anything more than a movement. He had his doubts whether every movement in the popular opinion is in fact, a progress. He did not intend to take part in this discussion at this time, nor in this hall. If he should speak so as to be heard to all those in the hall, he might as well go and bespeak his coffin, at once. He designed however, at the proper time, to move the adoption, in the constitution, of a provision similar to that in the present onre. He hoped that at present, there would be no attempt to discuss the merits of the question. Mr. SAWYER was in favor of the motion. He was glad it had been made. He was in favor ofgraduating punishment according to the enormity of the crime. If we abolish the death penalty, we shall be obliged to begin and make an entire new graduation. We must begin lower. If you imprison him who has committed a murder in the first degree, for life, he who has committed a less atrocious homicide must be imprisoned for a term of years, and so we must classify downwards. For his part, he did not believe in the humbug cry about the barbarism of the death penalty. He was not in favor of the mock sympathies of the present age. Men may commit such a crime as demands most imperatively that their life shall be taken from themi-a crime so enormous, as to leave them no claim upon God or man, for'the prolongation of their existence. Even in the Old Bay State, so highly spoken of yesterday, for the purity of its morals and the law abiding character of its people, they are forced to hang. For his part, he had no great love for that state, nor ever had, since the time when they hanged Quakers, and cut the throats of Baptists. Thie idea of capital punishment was not so revolting to him, as that of the assassin, entering the chamber of his unoffending victim, and taking advantage of his slumbers burying a knife in his bosom. Now-a-days, the sympathy of the good people is all with the assassin. Men are more wise than in the olden time-more wise than the teachings of the word of God.p Mr. BATES inquired in what manner the Scriptures had justified capital punishment. Mr. SAWYER. Was no great adept in the knowledge of the Sacred Scriptures; but he recollected having read in his Bible, that "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." Will that answer the gentleman? He could cite passages Loth in the old and the new testaments, where this doctrine is recognized and inculcated. He had heard this subject agitated before. It had been brought before the pub lic, and before the General Assembly time and again; but its agitators had never been able to procure a repeal of the law, and he hoped they never would. Mr. BATES desired to say a few words upon the subject. He did not intend to reply to the scripture argument ofthe gentleman from Augfaize. He thought however, that it would not much avail him. He quest tioned if there was anything in the Holy $criptuos that could be construed into an imperative commaneddestroy human life under any circumstances. He thought the phrase " shall he shed," mlight be looked uponl as a declaration predictive of the consequences of violence, to its perpetrator, rather than an i~njunction upon others to visit vengeance upon his head. There are other passages its Holy writ where a Similar form of expression is employed, to construle which into a command would be an absurdity. For instance, "Who.soever diggeth a pit shall full therein, " " Whosoever taketh the sword shall perish by the sword," &c. H~e entertained great respect for those who differed, with him in this respect, and from deference to them he intended to place his argumiienit against the death penalty upon other ground. The report declares that the righ t of every man to hi s o wn ife should be invio. Mable; and we are to c onclude that if life is ta ken, i t is incumbent upon th o se who t ake it, to show t h e neces sity for so doing. The object of all human laws, is to secure a nd pro mote the general good. The crimial l for ms a part of the general socia ty-of the partners in the State,'and before you take his life, you must show a conclusive reason for the act. It is not enough to say t hat he is a bad mnember of society. HNo good surgeo n willt am putato a diseased limb, until he is satisfied, not only that all his e fforts to cure it w ill be of no avail, but that the health of the remainder of the system imperi ously demands its removal. What then is the end of punishment? Is it not the good of society ind the re formati o n of the wicked? Ila what manier don t h e d ea th penalty secure the gaod oe society? It removes the delinquent, it is true; hat are you sure that no ill consequonces follow from his vio lent and shocking death? Who dares answer tkat no debasing-no hardening consequences aceruee to socie ty, even when the culprit is cal off in silence and alone? But how does the death penalty tend toseoure the other great end of puni shment -th e reformat ian of the criminal? If, under the scripture law we are bound to inflict indiscriminate death upon all who take life, what ex emption is there of the idiot or the insane-what of the accidental slayer? You place the insane in confine. ment; why not him who, under the influence of mor al disease, has slain his fellow? Can you go down into the soul and measure the moral guilt of this or that wrong done? In all countries where the death penalty has been abolished, crime has diminished. Sucl will ever be the case. But I go further and say, that there can be no necessity for it. The reluctance to take the life of him who may possibly be innocent, operates to screen the guilty, by preventing conviction; for it is the certain ty and -not the severity of the punishment that tends to prevent cr me. There. is another reason. There is a possibility that that most terrible of all events may happen-'an inno cent man may lose his life by an infamous punishment. It was a just remark of Gen. LafaS ette, that so long as human judgment is fallible, we are bound to resist the infliction of capital punishment. He believed that the public sentiment demanded the remission of the death penalty. Gentlemen say that tihis is - not a proper subject for a constitutional provision, and that it should be left to the action of the General Assembly. In regard to many subjects agitated in thit Convention, he was disposed to think so, but not in this. We have thought it necessary to declare private property to be inviolate: Is human life any iless so? You have declared the sale of lottery tickets to'be wrong: Is judicial murder right; or of less consequence than the sale of aticket in a lottery? Mr. SAWYER was a member of tbecommittee that introduced the sale of lottery tickets. Such le isas wrong. It can under no circumstances be right. On the contrary, we do believe that a man may forfeit his life, and that, once forfeited, there is a power in the State, with the right to carry that forfeit into effect. He would suggest to his friend that after all, he was conferring upon humanity a benefit of a doubtful char~acter. H~e would not take his life, but he would take his liberty, which many a man would value far more than his life. But the opposition to capital punishmient is inconsistent in another respect. If it follows aits own doctrine- it must repudiate and conxdemn all cor 21 OHIO CONVENTION DEBIAT['IS —Rl[)AY, [)E_.,,1Btn, 6. poral punishment-the stocks, the whipping post, even imprisoniments are equally abhiorent to the gentleman's doctrine when pursued to its legitimate consequences. Mr BATES said that if imprisonment was a higher penalty than death, the gentleman, according to his own showing, ought to be in favor of it. He believed at any rate, the experiment ought to be tried; and that men, but for their reluctance to change, even in the case of abuse, would generally go for it. He believed the operation would be very beneficial. Mr. ARCHBOLD. Will the gentleman permit a a suggestion! If he would, I would suggest, that if he is desirous to try the experiment, h} had better apply to the General Asseminbly, who ought to have full power over such subjects. Mr. BATES. The General Assembly has hitherto proved abad place forsuch experiments. I prefer to apply to the people through this Convention. Mr. HORTON moved to strike out the first two lines of the section. He thought the princille essentially declared without them. Mr. LAWRENCE was not tenacious for the retention of the matter proposed to be stricken out. He was desirous, however, that there should be a distinct affirmance of the proposition contained in the section. If it is important to declare in the Constitution of the State, the inviolability of private property, howmuch more is it important to recognize the great principle of the inviolability of human life. The first object to be secured by punishment, is the safety of society. Buit there is another. He had no sympathy with offenders. It is with no such sentiment that he was in favor of the doctrine; but for the very reason declared in the first and second line, now proposed to be stricken out. There is a very conclusive reason in favor of dispensing with the death penalty. It is, that it defeat s its own obiect. The number of convictions in proportion to the crimes, is very small. We hearof great crimes every day, yet how seldom we hear of the infliction of the penalty. Why is it so? Because such punishment is opposed to the sympathies of the hu man heart. The enormity of the punishment prevents the conviction. In minor crimes, the punishment is niucch more certain, aid the advocates of capital puris hmen t have thro wn upon them the burden of proving its necessity be fore they hav e made the first step toward convincing men of its propriety. Mr. LEADBET'rER, was oppose d to the abolition of capital punishment, and equally opposed to that sympathy for the criminal, which seized every opportunity to' miake a saint of him who had forfeited his life bat wantonly sending an unoffending victim into the presence of his God. He knew that it had become a sort of stereotype phrase with many, that it is the certainty and not the' severity of punishment that tends to prevent the commission of crime. Like most stereotype phrases of that species of philanthropists, it is not trwe, or so only in a limited degree. As it is, used and understood, it is absurd. No rational man, upon a jury, would convict a man of horse stealing upon testimony any less conclusive than he would require in a case of murder. The evidence is laid before the jury, and if they are convinced, beyond a reasonable doubt, of the truth of the charge, they are to say so, and this is a conviction. And this is as true, in the one case as in the other. T he phirase about the certainty Of punishments, amounlts to nothing. -With my friend from Morgan, I think it wouldlbe well if society would hang up a few mnore scoundrels. He believed that thie matter should be left to Leg;islative discretion. Then public opinion will dictate what t desires, a nd the represent ative s of the p eople will carry it out. He should vote to strike out. Mr. HAWKINS. In proportion as punishmen t is excessive and cruel, the chan ce s of esca p e are multiplied; butowhen public se tentimen t sanctions the measure of punis hment, neither prejudice nor sympathy stand in the way of the ends of Justice. In countries w here the experiment of abolishirg capital punishme n at has been tried, the effect h a s been happy. Some men se em to value ver y highly the mere gra tification of hanging scoundrels, but the question is, What bednefit does it confer upon society? Mr. CASE of Licking was in favor of th e principle of the remoelt, but n ot in favor of the incorporation o f that principle in the Constitution, for this rea s on: He believed that we had in Ohi o a lar ge share of certain moral, pol itical and religiou s bigotry, which would defeat the success of the principle contained in this sectioio, even at the e xpe nse of t he Co nstitution itsel f. .I hey,would defeat the Constitution when it was presented to the peop le for ado ption, a nd thus we s hould loose what w e s eek to attain, together with the result of the remainder of our labors. For himself he wa s in favor of the a bolition of capita l punishment s, and hoped that the day was not far distant when Ohio would take t h ed the lead i n this gre at and philanthrophic measure, and exhibit to the fcworld the fact that she was willitng even to trt a n experimen t fo r the purpo se of securing a n advance in th e cause of humanity. Capital punishments are a relic of ages dark and barbarous, and are a reproach to the enlightenment and civilization to which we pretend. It is a disgrace to us, that our statutes are darkened with the relics of the bloody codes of ages of violence and oppression. He believed, with Jefferson, that it is only right to take human life in cases of the utmost necessity. Among savages, who-have neither prisons, means of restraint nor means of moral suasion, such a necessity may exist; but here it does not exist, and on that ground if on no other, capital punishment should be repudiated. The gentleinan from Auglaize has referred to the Mosaic law for authority. Now that law does not sustain his position. Now, that law does not say that. Whoso taketh a man's life, his life shall be taken, or ..his blood shall beshed, but, Whoso sheddeth man's blood. For example: A man has given another a bloody nose; he shall receive a bloody nose in return-. A man stabs me with a dirk, I give: him a dig unider the short ribs in return, and the dignity of the Mosaii~ law is vindicated. N ow, I abhor that position and that law. If you are to take one provision of the Mosaic code, why not take all. That law says,"an eye foran eye, and a tooth for a tooth." If we adopt thisas the standard of legislation and jurisprudence, we shall sink beneath the standard of savages. I agree with what has been said by the gentleman from Guernsey, [Mr. LAWRENCE,] and in principle con cede the truth of the remarks of the gentleman from Jefferson, [Mr. BATES,] but I do not believe that the people are ready to adopt this great measure of reform. I believe that if incorporated in this constitution, i' will sink it; but I would ask of the committee that re ported this section, to introduce a resolution upon which we may declare and record our names ill favor of the abanidonment of this relic of barbarism, otherwise almost extinct. Mr. RANNEY, was in favor of the motion to strike out the whole section. He admitted that his symspa thies were with those who were opposed to capital ~punishment. He was convinced that n~o necessity; ex isted for the inflictioni-of the death penalty, and that no such necessity was likely to exist for the punishment of any crime likely to be committed in the State. 22 OHI0O CONVENTION DEBATES —FRIDAY, DECF:.CER 6. LHe felt that society was armed with all the power necessary for its own preservation; if the taking of life were necessary, he did not doubt the existence of the power to do so. It was a mrere question of State necessity: but the necessity to take human life, should be overwhelming, in order to justify this act. What were the objects of all punishment? They were two. The first was the protection of society: and the second was the reformation of the offender. In the first place then, it was not necessary to resort to the death-penalty for the protection of society; Wasit supposeable that the influence of murderers and others, in the present enlightened age, would ever be able to overthrow the inistitutions of civilized society? Who did not know, that there would always be found an abundant force on the side of law and order to suppress this infljeuce in every shape it could assume. With reference to the second object of punishment, hie remarked, that the infliction of the deatt penality left nothing to be reformed-gave no chance for reformation to the wicked man. It might be said, that a nman possessing so much moral corruption as to cornmmit murder, will never be reformed. But to deny that hlis reformation is practicable, would be to deny the power of the d(ivine arrangement to reform the heart of man. Certainly, it were better that a man should be reformed, than that he should be exterminated; and so long as it remains possible to extend the power of reformation, it were certainly better to do so, than to consign a man, at once, to hopeless perdition. He saw another reason against eapital punishment. It was, that, on account of the sympathies of men for the criminal, there was continual daniger, that he would escape, and so prevent the execution of the law. With respect to the principle'of vengeance, as conntected with punishment, that did not belong to man. He would refer to the same authority which had been before quoted-,-Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord." Vengeance belongs alone to him whose judgmenelt is unerring. Mr. LEADBETTER, kinterrupting) desired to ask the gentleman, whether one of the effects of punishmnent, would not be to deter others from the commission of crime. Mr. RANNEY.'He would answer the gentleman. He should have included this in what he had said about the power of society to protect itself. He was glad the gentleman had called his attention to it. But, does the gentleman believe that hanging up men by the reek, and choking them to: death, will deter others from I he commission of crime? Mr. LEADBETTER. teas not the rising generatioli governed as much by example, as by precept? Mr. P,ANNEY. That might be true; but he went farther. He held human life more sacred. When a man took away the life of his fellow, he would not follow his bad example so far as to take him up and choke him to death, and that before his own children. He never saw but one man choked in this way. He earnestly hoped that he might never see another; and as for the case he did witness, of all the spectacles upon God's footstool, from which to learn a lesson of morality, hlie believed that was the worst. If we would look at the criminal history of Old England, we might learn something from their example. If we were to look back to those tinies when it was the law of Englaud to punish stealth with death-when their entire criminal code was written in blood-we would find that, under that system of laws, crimes of this class, instead of being repressed, were greatly augmented: for thefts were committed right under the body of the victim which had been just stretched up for a simhilar crime. No, it was when we were able to carry home to the minds of men a refined sense of humanity to his fellow-creat.ures, that w e c ould have the be s t guaranties against the cotnmission of Crime. It was not the shedding of blood that w oul d make the people more virtuous, more considerate and careful of the inter est s of others. If it were necessary th at the death penalty should be inflicted in other count ries, that necessity did no t exist i n our country, o r in anyt o ther country where the Government was er ected upoa tle will of t he il o people. Such a thing might be necessary in arbitrary and despotic governments: it might be necessary for a tyrant to write his laws in blood, for a terror to those'who might stand adverse to his administration but never in a government like ours, where the noblest affections of the citizen were all made to cluster around that which affords protection to property and life. It was ridiculous to think that a few miserable murderers would be able to overturn the foundations of society in this country. Allusion had been made to Dr. Webster, in coinnection with the Massach usetts law.- This case was evidence to his mind, that the people of that State were a law-abiding people, that they were disposed and determined to execute the laws wvithout respect to-the rank and influence of the offender. The execution of the legal penalty in this case met his hearty concurrence; but if the offender had been-a poor, obscure man, it might materially change the case, and the rigid execution of the law might not have been so necessary. Wilen Mr. R. had concluded ARRANGEMENT OF THE HALL. Mr. SMITH of Warren, said: Mr. CHAIRMAN: It appears to me, that, so far as our deliberations here are concerned, we cannot obtain any benefit from whatever may be said. In order, therefore, to afford the Select Committee appointed to inquire inito the ways and means by which we may be better heard here, an opportunity to make further report, I propose that the Committee rise and report progress. This motion was agreed to; and accordingly, the Committee rose, and the Chairman reported p)rogress. Oil motion, by Mr. SMITH of Warreii, the Covention took up the folloowing restutioni: Resolved, That the committee heretofore appointed to i nquire as to the improvement ofthe hall now occupied by the convention, for deliberative purposes, be authorized to contract for the erection of a ceiling of canvass, or musliin, upon the most approved plan, to reduce the capacity'of the hall, and cut off the galleries. Mr. NASH proposed the following amendment, to eome in at the end of the resolution, to-wit: "or, that the committe, at. their discretion, engage a new Hall, and have the railing, seats and furniture removed to the same." Mr WORTHINGTON, stated the reasons in favor of remaining in the Hall now occupied, and gave it as the recornmenidation of the Committee to-stretch, at a proper distance above the gas-burners, an awning of canvass, which will have the effe,ct of lowering the ceiling and cutting off the galleries, and it'would not cost more than the expense of a half day's session. Mr. LAWRENCE proposed to amend the amendment by inserting after the word "Hall," the w4 rds, "in this city, or elsewhere." Mr. McCORMICK proposed to amend the amnendment, by adding wagons and cages for the accommo-, dation of the travelling menagerie which he supposed this body was about to becomne; and to give eclat to the expedition he suggested that the Comnmittee should be instructed to engage the conduct of the celebrated Barnum. But, in seriousness, he had no doubt but there were halls enough ill this city which wouldz accomme,date the Convention as well as they could be aceommo dated anywhere. From what had been said by the gentleman last on the floor, he doubted not but that the a 23 24. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMIBER 6. Convention would be able so to arrange the Hall in who had favored the adjournment, in abusive and slan which' they were now sitting that they could hear well derous articles. He was sorry to say that such at, enough, ann speak with ease and satisfaction. The tacks so far as he was apprized originated with demo difficulty was that the voice, striking upon a hard sur- crats. But all know how eagerly the Ohio Statesman, face, at various distances fromn the speaker, produced a the central organ of the democratic party, republished succession of echoes which made confusion. Now, if those attacks upon the purity and honesty of the mo the walls wer covered with canvass, and the recesses tives which actuated the majority; thus encouraging hung with tapestry, so that the voice would strike up- and giving currency to them. Yea, indeed, at the on a soft instead of a hard surface, the whole difficulty very time when the editor of that paper was admitting would be removed. He was opposed to removing. He that five thousand of'their citizens were absent, its cot was opposed to coming here in the first place; and be- umns were teeming with abuse upon the majority of ing here, now, he was equally opposed to removing this bodty. "The whigs and afew home-sick democrats" again to any other place. it was said, effected the adjournment. Shame should Mr. LARWILL, was in favor of removing to Col-'mantle the cheeks of a man so lost to every feeling of umbus, for several reasons which he rehearsed. truth and humanity Mr. DORSEY, Mr. LOUDON, Mr. STANTON Mr. ARCSEYBOL, Mr. MANON, Mr. MORRIS, and He impugned the motives of no member who voted Mr. ARCtiBOLD, Mr. MANON, Mr. MORRIS, and against the adjournment; he was ever ready to defend Mr. CASE of Licking, were each heard in a brief ex- tept f t mtt he wa t h planation, and statemen - tile purity of their motives. But while he was thus planation, a nd statement of their opposition to any ready himself to dojustice to others, he would npt rest rmnoval. LAWRENCEr said,lie w a s uin silence under the imputation of dishonest motives, r.LAWENCEsaid,hewasunwillingtodany- which the central organ had fulminated against tho thing that might endanger the adoption of the Constitu- members of this body for adjourning over from July to ineembers of this body for adjourning over from July to tion' by the people. Buthe did not believe that suche would upon all proper occasion ex would be the resultof our returning to Col~umbus. ne d be the resultof our returning to Columbus He press the indignation and contempt he felt, and he well believed by this act the Convention would elevate its knew that many others participated in his feelings, in reputation and regain much character which it lost wi this regard for all those who sought to make political the people, by removing to this city, although he would capital out ofthe health and lines of the members of frankly admrit that Cincinnati is not only an honor to this body Ohio, tinut she is an ornament to the great and growing West. It was from no feelings of unkindness to her Mr. LARWILL was oftheopiinion, that a removal to citizens, that he advocated this resolutioti-with many Columbus would expedite the business of the session, of whom he enjoyed the pleasure of a personal acquail- ad give atisfaction to the people. Last summer, he tance, and bore willing testimony to their kindness and was amongst the advocatesof the proposition to remove urbanity. Higher moti,es impelled him to action in to Cleveland, having offered one of the resolations to this matter. to that effect. He offered that resolution, because he Day after day we are coplainig that this Hall is saw, as the event proved, that a proper regard for the notsuited to the purposes of discussion and deliberation. ealthot thebody would notallow them to set in Co Efforts have been made by a committee of this body, a few days longer. But what would have 0 ~~~~~~~~~~lurebus but a few days longer. But what would have either to procure another Hall, or to improve, by the been the result if his proposition to remove to Cleve erection of an artificial ceiling and tile cutting off the land had been adopted. I was now pretty clear, that, gallerie,hoewenw up.Hewsposif the Convention had gone to Cleveland, they would to all such experimentingat the expense of tihe people. have proceeded to coplete their ork and that it If we cannot be suitably accommodated here, let us would have been submitted to the peo)l before this return to the Capitol of the State, where were all the time But that proposition was opposed by those ge tlemien who preferred comindg to Cincinnati. archieves of the State-the State Library and othlercon- temen who preferred conting to Cincinnati. veniences necessary to the deliberations of this body. r. LAWRENCE then asked and obtained ave to it the time the adjournment took place last summer withdraw his amendment to the amendment, and then he foresaw the error of coning to this city. If an error he offered the following as a substitute for the resoluwas thein committed, in the selection of a place for the till and amendment. re-assembling of this Convention, as all were now wil. Resolved, That when this Convention shall adjourn this s day, it will adjourn to meet at Columbus on Monday next, ling to admit, he for one, was ready to retrace hi t 1 o'cock A. M. steps. A few words he said, with regard to that adjourn- Upon the motion of Mr. LARSH, the Convention ment. He then believed it right, believed it called for took a recess till 3 o'clock P. M. by every dictate of humanity, and so believing had voted for it. He vet considered he had by that vote, AFTERNOON SSON. done oily simple justice to himself and the people of the State. He called God to witness that he never gave 3 O'CLOCK P. M a vote from purer motives. Circumstances then existed The PRESIDENT resumed, and announced the at Columiibus which convinced a majority of us that it question to be upon the amendment of the gentleman would be unsafe and unwise to remain longer there. from Gallia, (Mr. NASH,) to the report of the Seiect Future developments in the progress of the "Pestilence ComNmittee-ruling the amendment of the gentleman that walketh in darkness," have amply confirmed the from Guernsey, (Mr. LAWRENCE,) to be out of order. wisdom of our course. Scarcely had members reached Mr. NASH'S amendment was rejected; and the questheir homes, until the notes of lamentation and distress tion recurred upon the adoption of the resolution. from the Capitol, were borne upon every breeze. Dis- Mr. LAWRENCE now moved the adoption of the may, fear and consternation pervaded every breast. substitute which he had before proposed. Thousands of her citizens sought refuge in flight, some Mr. HORTON demanded a division of the question, of whom were overtaken by the pestilence and cut dowlI and the yeas and nays upon the question of striking in a moment. out. Stuch a state of things every sensible man supposed Mr. SAWYER said it was intimateo before dinner, would have disarmed all opposition to the propriety of, that informaSoan was expected from Columbus, in reour adjournment. Not. so. A few editors of the count- g ard to the subject under consideration, and hesupposed try press, thought it their duty to attack the members this would be -: proper time to present it. OHIO CONVENTION DEB. Mr. GRAHAM then sent up a communication froms Mr. Wm. NEIL, of Columbus, offering a Hall for the use of the Convention for $100 per month. Mr. SAWYER said, the convention had arrived at a point in the consideration of this subject, where lihe felt it necessary for him to speak out. He intended to be very brief. The necessity for the adjournment last summer was apparent to all. He was obliged to acknowledge it, although he felt opposed to it at the time. He would have been glad to have staid; or rather, with his friend front Wayne, (Mr. LAR MWELL) he would have preferred an adjourmnent to the city of Clavelaud. But, for lack of strength to carry that proposition, the body was coimpelleil to adjourn to this place. The cholera was in our mnidst; members could not have beent retained: but it was most reluctantly that he yielded his assent to the proposition to come hire. But now, (hlie continued,) we are here. A committee appointed by the President of thecolvention, (in whose appointmert we all acquiesced,) have selected this Hall for the accornmmodation of the body. Somie objections have been made to the room. 1 confess that it is objectianable an somne respects: but I suppose all that might be obviated at a trifling expense. I believe it might be obviated by each rmemnber speaking from the Clerk's desk, or from a tribune which might ie erected in front of it; or the preposition to canvas the ceiling might be carried inteffTect- for about a hundred dollars. We are here at a rent of $150 a month for this Hall,u including fires and lights. Mr. Neil proposes to give us his Hall for $100 a mnonth-nothing said about lights aid fuel. But, now, I undertake to say, that, by dis- pensing with the salary of the Sergeant-at- Arms, as we have done, and by what is saved on account of gaslight, we get the use of this Hall for absolutely no expense at alI t o the State. Somne gentletnei complain that we have not access to such books here, as are necessary to our deliberations. The gentleman from Monroe [Mr. ACfrGROLDO makes this complaint. And this gentleman is a reading man. No one can read his speeches without being convinced of that fact. However, there are but very few of us comparatively, who really have any need to resort to books, to assist us in the performance of our duties here. For myself, sir, I feel that I am sufficiently infordned with reference to every principle upon which f shall be called to vote in this body; and that I need not be under the neeessity of looking again into one single book, in order to qualify'myself for the dischbarge of my duties here. 1 had been preparing niy mitlad with book kaowledge before I came here. I have come as a workman prepared. I have no need now to resort to history upon this subject of establishing the organic law. If we want to spend our time in the library, for our own advantage, that is quite, another matter. Again, our committee reports are all before us. We hiave all the facts before us also, which we have de manded, in order to prosecute our labors. Why then go back to Columbus! I do not covet the reputation which would attach justly to this body by sulch a re m(val; and in such an event, I have determined that eyey course wigl be to resignt-and go home. Though that circumnstance, perhaps, would not affect the maindsn of others vrery seriously, To mny minld, there in now a peculiar appropriateness in closing the labiors of this Convention, iil the city o Cinceilr~ati. Because, [ apprehend that the Constitution which we shalt frame will be such a constitution as the. eyes of freemen never yet~ have looked upon —it will be so radically democratic. I think there is a pe cu Liar appropriateness in this,'that such a constitution N.aYs-Messrst Archebold Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barne tt of Preble, Bates. Blicoensderfer, Brown o' Athens, Brown of C arroll, Cahill, Case of L icking Chaney, Cook Curry e y t,aDorser, art, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Graham. Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gr een o f Ross. Groesbeek, Habilton, Hard, arrlan, Hender s on, Holmes, Holt' Hootman, Horton, Hnumphdevile, Hunt. Hunter, Johns ton, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larshde, Lidey o, Lodon, M ason. Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Rat, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Selle rs, SSmith of Highland, Smi th of War re n, Stanton, Sti llwell, Sti kney, Struble, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Towrnshend, Vance at Butler, Vance of Champaign, g arren, Willh ams, Wilson Woodbury and Worthington-76. The question then bei ng on st riki ng out all after tiHte word "Resolved," in the res o lution, (a division of the question upon Mr. LAwWltEN~e s motion to strike oat and add othe r words, h aving been called for,) the yeas and nays were demanded, and resulted ayes 19, noes 60, as follows: Yrnis-Messrs. Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Case o f Hocking, Curry, Graham, Green of Ross, Hanmilton, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga Ifootman, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, McCloud, Peck, Stanton and Vance of Champaign-19. Ntys-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery ~Barnett of Preble, Bates, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan, Hun derson, Holnes, Holt. HoTton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh. Loudon, Mason, Morris, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Qulgley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, 'Smith of Warren, Stilwell. Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Towinshenid, Vance of Butler, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury and Wor thington- 6. 2,' OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, Di,CETIRBER 7. Mr. HAWKINS, from the select committee on the subject of printing, to whom was referred the resolu (tion of Mr. REEMELIN, requesting the Secretary of r State to make the necessary provision for printing and transmitting to this body the reports of the oficers of State, &c. reported the same back and recommended its adoption; which was agreed to, and the committee T wer e dis charged from any further consideration of the [ same. On motion of Mr. HUNT, the Convention resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the order s of the day, Mr. HUMPHiREVILLE i ii the chair, The order of the day being the report of tie Select ', Committee upon the subject of Capital Punishment, the question was upon the motion of Mr. RIiaLE, to , strike out the first two lines of the same which was decided in the affirmnative: ayes 44, nays 26. The question then being upon striking out the sec tion as amended: Mr. QUIGLEY. I am in favor of striking ouit, not y rwsithstanding the gentleman from Licking has given us to understand, that the sanguinary system of cap ital punishment was fit only for the dark ages, and was supportedby bigotry, superstition, and -fanati cism. if all are bigoted, superstitious and fanatical who are favorable to capital punishmeist, he will find thiat hlie has included, with very few exceptions, all the clergymen andi theologians of ancient and modern times-he will include the great majoriity of professing Christians-the great majority of the moral part of community, classes sustaining the virtue, morality and integrity of society; these are the bigots, the su perstitious, the fanatics, who favor a continuation of capital punishmrent for capital crimes. But, sir if capital punisliment, is to be abolished in Ohio let it be done by the legislature as directed by the people's will. I am opposed to abolisling capital puinishbment for capital criem-e b constitutional authority, believing as I think every member of this Convention believes, that laws ought to be based on strict principles of ;norality and justice. That capital punishment was directed by tlxe Su preme Ruler of the universe, we cannot do otherwise than act upon principles of strict and inflexible jus tice. Morality it must be admitted by all who believe in the sacred Scriptures, and must at that time and under the circumstances been moral, wise and just, ' and was not given to a dark and benighted naltion, or to any nation, but to Noah before organiization existed in thepast deluvian world. Now, sir, I take mny stand upocn the ground, thlat the law was given to Noah by the Supreme law-giver, even God himself, and was of necessity moral, wise and juist-and that it never has been, nor ever will bi repealed so long as capital crime-so long as willful, deliberate, malicious mlurder is perpetrated. No inti mration of its repeal is found in the sacred voluine that ever I could see-neither can it be repeated from the nature of the case. Moral writers lay it down as a sacred and established principle, that a moral law . laid down or given under immutable circumstances, must forever remain lunchangeable. Now I inquire j what were the scirceustances under which this law was given, and designed to operate? Whosoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed-which according to the opinion of our ablest comnaentaters, together with the concurring opinion of the clergy of almost every denomination, and all who are acquainteaR with -the original language in which the law was given, at least so far as my kuowledge extends in this ematter, have considered a law directing capital punishments for capital crime? What then is capital crime? Without doubt, the deliberate, malicious So theemotion was disagreed to. Mr. NASH moved to amend the o (for which see foreiioon's proceedings following at the end thereof:."or any v rmp rov e ment s in th e Hall to pr event iay; be d eemed best;." Which amendment was agreed to. The questi on t ihen being on agreeing for making irnprovemejnts in the H liays b eing demanded, resulted, yeas follows: YEAs.-.Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barne Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer Birow n of Ctarroll, Cahill, C ase of Hockin Chaney, Cools, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Flor lett, Greene of Defiance, Groesbeck.Hard,] Hitchconck of Cuyahoga, HEolmes,Holt, Hor Johnson,.oines. Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh Mason. M'itchell, McCor-mick,Nash, Norris Perkins, Q.uiley, Beemelin, Riddle, Roll, Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smitl well, Sticlney, Stidger, Struble. Tavlor, q by, Tholmpsoni of Stark, Town,shend Van liams and Worthington —65. NA,Ys.-SMessrs. Curry, Graham, Green Ham-iiltoni Hootman, Humphrevile, Lawrc Mallon, McCloud, Peck, RanneY, Smith o ton, Vanice of Champaign. Willson and W. So the resolutioni as amended was at MNIr. MASON moved that the Conve self into a comntmiittee of the whole on t dalty-wiwicth was disagreed to, and the Mr. Thomnpsoni of Shelby, the Coyiverl FIFTY-EIGHTHDAY. SATUIrDAY, DEcrM BE:R 7, 1850-9 A. M. The Conrvention mtet pursua Cmtt t o adjournmeoat; Mar. Vance, of Butler, in the Chair. Pr,~are by the Rev. Mr. Militchell. Mr. ORTON presented the petition of Asher Cook and one lhundred and three others, citizens of Wood ,ountty,praiying that the plan fora judiciary reported to the Convetion, by the Standi ng Comnnsittee upon tha t subject, be so amended, as to give the cou nt y courts concurrent jurisdiction with the, court of Comrmon Pleas, itl the business of naturalization, and exclusive jurisdiction in cases of license and revenue. Referred to the Standing Committee on the Judiciary Department. Mr. REEM,IELIN presented the petition of John Grable and niniety other citizens of Waynie county, on the subjecl of law reform. Referred to the Standing Committee on Jurisprudence. Mr. HU MPHREVILLE presented the petition of Mrs. Mary A Brotisonl, praying for an extension and greater security of the rights of married women Reported to the Committee oni Miscellaneous Subjects and Propositions. Mr. REEMELIN presented a petition from Robert Linzey and eight others, asking that a clause be inserted in thes new constitution authoriZing either branch of the General Assembly to expel any member who shall pressijt himself drunk on the floor during their session. Referred to the Select Committee on the subject of Tern peraince. Mr. KIRKWOOD from the Standing Committee on Privileges arid Electionis submitted the following report: That the said James T. Worthington, has beeln duly elected a member of this Convention for the counties of Pickiaway and Ross, to fill the vacancy occasioned by the resignation of Wesley Claypoole. All of which is respectfully submitted On motiosn of Mr. Kirkwood, the report was agreed I to. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DECEMBER 7. and willful taking away the life of an innocent you cannot arrest them-they armed andyou unarmed, person, without cause or provocation. I ask, Mr. would prevent their arrest in the great majority of President, what has been, and what now are, the cases, especially if the robber or murderer is aware of circumstances? Did the ages of darkness and super- the fact that you dare not take his life. Another obstitioii, or the refined and enlightened age in which jection to doing away with capital punishment and subwe live, alter in any respect whatever, the nature of stituting imprisonment for life, is the possibility of the the case? Most assuredly not; willful, deliberate and incarcerated murderer, murdering some officer or inmalicious murder is now a violation of God's law as mate of the prison. Who would be chargeable with much as it was when'first giveli, and is the same es- this last murder? may it not be called a legalized sential crime in all ages, so long as perpetrated, and murder, at least a murder that would have been preincurring the same dread penalty. The definition of vented by inflicting capital punishment for the first this law givenbymnyfriendfromLicking, whose judg- offence. It is said that executions do not prevent inent and talent I highly appreciate, and whose phi crime. -This assumption I pronounce altogether gralanthropy and humanity I admire —making it a kind tuitous-no one knowing, neither can he know, how of lex talionis, or law of retaliation;-as for instance many possessed of malicious intention to murder his if you receive a blow on the lsose, returnithe compli- neighbors, have, by witnessing an execution, been dement by inflicting ablow on the assailant's nose, and terred from carrying out his wicked, his hellish design. both having bloody noses, will be shedding of blood If capital punishment be abolished, (which I do opt according to the divine law, which in the opinion of pose,) let it be done by the Legislature. my friend does not amount to capital punishment. I will conclude by remarking, that capital punishBut as the gentleman is met in opposition by a host ment has been practised for capital crime by all iaof theologians, and expositors who differ with him in tlons, with few if aliy exceptions-has been approved the definition of the law, I must remain of the same by the vise-the humane-the pious-the virtuousopinion which I entertained before, namely that the! the benevolent in all ages, since the da s of NQah, and law is capital punishment for capital crinme. I am of I doubt not will be countenianced while murderers conopinion that strict justice requires capital punishment tinue to perpetrate murder. for capital offences. I take it to be a sacred principle, Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, spoke in favor of retainthat punishment must be proportionate to the crime. ing the section, and at some length in favor of the abAll our laws proceed upon that principle, and when a olition of Capital Punishment; but was heard with person is arraigned before a court of justice, charged much difficulty. with any offence punishable by law, and convicted of He thought it the duty of the men of the present the offence, the court pronounces, and thelaw requires age to examine themselves, their own condition and punishment commensurate with the o/ffence. Willful times, and the state of refinement and civilization to and malicious murder being the highest degree of of- which they have arrived, and fit their government to fence which man can inflict on his fellow man, requires their present condition, rather than look back among (according to the principles of justice above men- the records of cruel and barbarous ages to find the tioiied) the infliction of the highest grade of punish- models for their legislation and jtirisorudence. For meit among men. It is urged in opposition to capi- himself, he was opposed to the taking of human life, tal punishment that inasmuch as life is an inalienable on any account and for any reason whatever. He deright, we cannot delegate authority to government sired that our history shoutd not be written in blood, totake it away. Let us examine the theory and see and believed the time to have comne, when under the the results to which it leads. Our declaration of in- influence of feelings more humane, and a religion dependence declares that man is possessed of certain more benign, the executioner might safely be banished inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and from the machinery of government. the pursuit of happiness." The theorist says that In looking at a subject of this kind, it is of the first life being an inalienable right, cannot therefore be importance that we take into consideration the nature touched: that same theory must debar all interference of tihe being to be acted upon, as well as the result with liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By what sought to be secured I he being is Man. In,iis oriauthority then is any person immured in the Peniten- gin, he comes pure and unsophisticated from the hand of tiary or other prison? by what authority is the robber, his Maker, to become the child or thepvictim of a desthief, and other offenders who make crime their pur- tiny, in a great measure beyond his own control, and suit of happiness, in any wise disturbed? Such a whlich he does not, in any sense, create. He is to be theory cuts up by the root all laws and means for the mad-e, mouldedl, and his character is to be fixed and deprotection of society, and lets the scoundrel run at termined by the society into which he falls. In his large and prey upon community. origin, he is plastic and impressible. He takes the gButsir, I ask how far a person may go is selfdefence? form that the world impresses upon himt, and becomes Suppose a murderer whose intentions you are fully good or ev'i, according to the sphere in which he reaware of, assails your house by night, or by day, and if volves. If hie is then impelled into the entertainment left to pursue his desperate career without inolestation, of the baser passiois-if the vices, follies, injustices would mur'der yourself, your wife and your children, and oppressionsof human society have sown theirseed how far would your duty require you to go in such a in his Ibosom, andi given' origin to a crop of bitter alnd case in defence of your family, selfandproperty? Why criminal fruit, the blame should, in part, at least, fall sir, I answer, and I think every,nan in community upon that society whose ill-constructi in, false princiwill ansiver, just so far as is necessary for protection — pies and demoralization have caused his downfall. And even if that necessity requires it to taking the life ofthe if society should divide the lault with the criminal, aggressor. This is nothing more nor less than the great what propriety is there in forcing upon hbn, iiot merelaw of self defence, the firstlaw of nature-and to stand ly the whole burthen of the punishment, but that of still and see your wife and children butchered before'an extreme punishment, and one that puts it out of his your eyes, when you could prevent it, would involve power to retrace his steps, and profit bv the goodgof guilt, for which such person, I doubt not, would be that society of whose evils he is the victim. It is itiaccountable to his God. But the common safety and deed'a poor vindication of the safety of society, and a good of society demand that murderers, thieves aud poor ineaiis'of reforming the criminal, to take his life. robbers, should be punished. If the noin-resistance Until we can enter into the soul of the criminal, we principle be adopted, then murderers may murder and have no means of estimating the amount of his guilt; 27 4, 28 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES SATURDAY, DtE.c,MBER 7. Spain, and the Court of High Commission, is suffi cient. It is admitted that the reform of the criminal is a good secondary consideration, and is to be pursued as far as isis tenit with the circumstances; but hu maniity itself protests against its being made a primary reason. I would inquire of gentlemen, what does the safety of society demand? if they will convince me that the punishment of death is impotentto deter men from the comnmissioni of murder-that most horrid of ail crimes, I will instantly abandon my ground. But such is no} the resrule'of the teachings of experience. I have the good fortune to reside in a county containing more than thirty thousand inhabitants, and where, by the blessinig of God, no capital crime has ever been com mitted. He had however professionally in other communities been called upon to act for persons charged with capital crimes; and he had observed in all such an intense and overwhelming desire to be saved from ttie punishment of death. The worst of assassins tri umph when they can escape this, to them, most dread ful of all events. He would admit that if men prone to crime could -have conferred upon them the happy moral organiization so apparent in the thousands who have flooded this and the legislative halls with their petitions, something might be done; but it mustbe bornein mind, that we have to deal with the ruffians that infest societywith men who have voluntarily divested themselves of every feeling of remors e for c rim e and sympathy with goodness; and the question is, h o w we shall impose upon them that degree of saluta ry terror, th at shall so far hold them in check, that the m atron may watch in safety by the cradle of her sleeping charge, and have some faith at least, that her prayers for its safety may be effectual. The puffian has the same instincts and terr ors as the petitioners-h e has the same dread of death, but he ha s n ot their fine moral s entiments and sympathies. The love of life is instinict in all bosoms alike; and none certainly have more reason to dread its end, than the wretches in question. Shall we not'then, for the security of society, take hold of the strongest principle within cur reach, to impose the obligation of obedience upon the incorrigible? He desired to notice one argument more, which had been frequently repeated by gentlemen upon the other side. Gentlemen say that it is not the severity but the certainty of punishment that operates to prevent the commission of crime. This might, in a limited sense, be a good argument, in countries where there is no standard of crime, and where insignificant offences are punished with vindictive security. For instance, in a county whose statutes are like those of Draco-that were said to be written in blood; or where as in Enigland, men have been hanged for stealing sheep; for the reason that men will not prosecute to conviction, anul the severity of the law amounts to its repeal. But I ask, if a code which only inflicts the death penalty in the case of the highest of crimes committed by the worst of ruffians, so conflicts with the moral sentiment of man, that any one would refuse to prosecute the perpetrator? This agitation is most real appropos, and he had thought so for years. Is it by any means certainl,when you have your murderer in -the Penitenltiary, that he will be punished, even to the extent of his sentence? By no meanls. Every assassin when he arrives at the Penitentiary, findss the very persons who were opposed to his death ready to petition for his release. He recollected a case where one of the most diabolical murders ever perpetrated by human mnalignity had been perpetrated. It was one of those terrible Gases, the for the wrong act merely does not constitute thecrimeI but the intention with which the act was committed. There is a necessity of examining into the moral and mental light which the delinquent was possessed of at the time of the act; for pethaps no manl ever commit ted an atrocious crime against humanity, who was not for the time being, more or less insane. Mr. ARCHBOLD was unwilling to occupy the at tention of this august body at this time. He had ever felt great reluctance to do~so, but was particularly un der the influence of that sentiment now; when it seem ed like inflicting capital punishment upon each other for mem-bers to attempt to convey and receive ideas. He thought that during the course of this debate, the argument had been nearly all upon one side. Our worthy friends who are in favor of the abolition of the extreme penaliy of the law, seem to delight to repre sent that the feeling against the great reform which they advocate is merely the effect of political and reli gious bigotry-a mere relic of the barbarism and cruelty of ages of uncivilization. For his part, he did not regard that as a relic of barbarism nor an evidence of bigotry, which prompted mankind to institute laws that should throw a guard of law around the tender mother, while she watched the slumbers of her infant, or guard ed the husbandmans, wh ile he followed the such exp ressions, if intended as arguments, would be abandonred. For himself, he protested against any such conclusion. Ihe believed that the fr iends of capital punishmnent we re juTt as humane, just as benevolent, just as tender hearted, just as philanthropic as any men in Ohio, or anywhere else. Gentlemen speak of the law as founded upon principl es of revenge? By what authority do they make s uch a charge? Where is the evid enrce of it? Law is defined to be, "a rule of civil conduct, prescribed by the supreme power of the state, corrmtnanodinlf whcat is right and prohibiting what is wr ong." What i s there of revel ge in t his? What is the duty of the l aw-making p ower in th e government? It is to take into considerationi the nature of the evil to be reniedied, and to appl y the remedy which shall be the most efiectual. The law of t he land, enacted in furt herance of this view, is in no s ense a sy stem of revenge. That which has been terme d "Ly nc h law," which, under the first feeling of c etestation for some horrid and wanton act, seizes upon the offender, and upo n perhaps a mere presucotption of his guilt, hangs him upon the next tree, and exults in his expi ring agonies, may be called the law of r eve nge; but su ch is no t the l aw of the land, and nothing but a false philanthropy-a diseased and mawkish sensibility would have applied to the law so unworthy a name. It is evident to all, that, in sonme manner crime must be, punished, to prevent, far as ar a possible,its recurrence. If the last horse were stolen in Oh io, or th e last act of violence done to the laws of society, we might then unbar the doors of the prisons, ;nd cease to punish for crimes already committed; but such i s not the case, and we may wvell hesitate to subscribe to the doctrine that a failure to puni sh would contribute to a cessation from crime. Gentlemen upon the other side have been pleased to contend, that -the reformation of the criminal is the main object of punishment. Such is nlot the case. The great and primary object of punishment is the protection of society —the safety of society; and if we look back uponl the history of the world we shall learn a fact that is apparent thr'ough all its pages, that every system having for its object the reformation of the criminal, has proved a system of tyranny and mnost horrid cruelty. Barely to refer to; the Inlquisitioen of I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DECEFJBER 7. bare thoughts of which will thrill with horror a person acquainted with the circumstances, for the remainder of his life. Yet in that case, the executive of the State was literally flooded with petitions and overborne with importunities. He himself,then a member of the General Assembly, had been followed and pursued with solicitations to use his influence,until he had been obliged to tell the gentlemen he could not help them. There is as great an opposition to imprisonment as to death, and the abolition of the latter will only be the signal for a ferocious, persevering and exterminating attack upon the former. Mr. MANON believed that a large majority of the people of the state were in favor of abolishing capital punishment. Mr. HOLT said the question presented by this report had once been before a committee of which he was a member, and a report made in regard to it, in substance leaving it in the handsof the General Assembvly. Some gentlemen dissatisfied with the action of the committee had procured the appointment of a Select committee, who had presented this report. He concurred with the sentiments of the former committee. In regard to the abstract question, he had formed no very decided opinion, and did not know at what resuit he should eventually arrive. In the different cases which had fallen under his observation, circumstances of mitigation in s,ome, and of aggravation in others had caused him to fluctuate somewhat in opinion. He felt called upon to make these renmarks, because in the re port of certain remarks of his upon a previous oeca sion, he had been represented as saying that he had no fixed opinion upon any question; which, he was hap py to say was not strictly correct. He was in favor at present of leaving the whole question to the General Assembly. The question being on striking out was agreed to. On motion of Mr. HAWKINS, the committee rose and reported. The question being upon concurring in the report of the Committee of the Whole, Mr. HAWKINS, was in favor of the abolition of capital punishment, but he would not say that the pub lic sentiment of the entire commrunity, would approve of the incorporation of such a prov;sion in the funda nmental law. He wished to have the sense of the Con vention directly taken, so far as related to making the seation which was stricken out, a part of the Con stitution, and not as related to the simple question of capital punishment. He would vote against concurring in the amendment (to strike out Sec. 1,) but was at the same time aware, that it would receive the support of a majotity of the members of the Convention. Mr. BATES moved to recommit the article onl "cap ital punishment," to the Select Committee on that subject. IMr. SMITH (of Warren,) would be willing to ac commodate th- gentleman from Jefferson, (Mr. BATES,) provided he thought any good would result from the re-commital of this report. He apprehended however, that the minds and opinions of the members of thisbody had been formed on the subject; and that they were now ready to dispose of the question. He did not wish to act discourteously in the matter but he supposed that if the subject were again referred, the committee could do nothing but report a similar proposition to the one now before the convention. He knew that in regard to th;s subject there was a great deal of excitement in the public mind; and perhaps it might be said, with truth, that public opinion was in a transition state on this subject. His own impression was, that those who opposed capital punishment were increasing'in numbers in Ohio. But he was decidedly of opinion, whatever might be his own views on the subject, that itwould be bad policy to m a ke this matter a fun damental principle in thie constitution. Let it be left to legislative enactment-to public opinion. If it weire d e emed advisable by the legislature ereafter to try th;s experiment, tet it be tried-i f it should a nswer a good purpose, well and good-if not it could be repealed. He hoped, ther efore, that the a bolition of capital punishment would no t be establishe d by cohnstitutional provis ion. There was one State in this Uniy on in which the experiment had been tried; the State of Michigan. He understood that there was a great deal of difference of opinion in that State in reference to the propriety of the measure.. By some it was claimed that the abolition of the death penalty had a gooa effect; whilst on the other hand, il was contended that the commission of atrocious crimes had been augmnented. He was decidedly in favor of leaving the matter to the legislature. Perhaps the gentleman [EMHt. BATES] might change them by the remarks he might offer. Adr. BATES had no desire to argue this question any further. It was clear to his mind, and had been for some time that the majority of the convention were opposed to incorporating the report into the conistitu tion. He had no direct knowledge of the sentiments of those whom he represented, upon this subject-em bracing the entire county. But he knew that the com nmunity felt a very deep interest in this question. He, knew furthermore that during the early sittings of this body (at Columbus) he presented a petition very nu merously signed by the citizens of Steubenville, (the county seat of Jefferson c:unty,) of all classes-of all parties —and of all denominations. It embraced a con. siderable proportion of members of the bar-oiie of them a very aged and experienced man-a man who had perhaps as much experience at the bar and on the bench as any member of this convention. They all petitioned that capital puniishment should be abolished. His object in desiring to have the article re-commit ted, was simply to introduce a resolution declaratory of the opinions of the Convention on this subject. Not for the purpose of incorporating it into the coiisti tution-that he thought could not be done-but mere ly an expression of opinion that capital punishment ought to be abolished. He would here take occasion to say in reply to his friend from Monroe, that he did not possess the "mawkish sensibility" to which that gentleman referred. He did not say that there was any want of benevolence on the part of those who were opposed to his op.nioi)s on the subject. On the contrary, he knew that there were many truly benevo lent and christian people, who were opposed to abol ishing capital punishment. He agreed with the gen tleman that the primary object of punishment was the security of society. The report stated that. Again, he agreed with him that the secondary object was to effect the reformation of the criminal. But then gen tlemen contended that the death penalty more effee tually deterred persons from the commission of murder than would any other punishment. This he d,ubted. But let him apply that theory to. all crimes. It would, according to him,more effectually deter men from com mitting robbery, seduction and all the other crimes which outraged the peace of the community. Go and carry out that doctrine arnd hanging would be the order of the day. Gentlemen should prove the necessity for the death penalty before they inflicted it. Life was the gift of God. Man could not bestow life, and even on the principles urged by gentlemen he should not take it away without the clearest necessity. He firmly be lieved that man had no right to take away life in any case, as a punishmnent for crime. He did not de-sire to argue that question now. But he took the simple ground that gentlemen must prove the necessity for 29 30 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, I)ECEABER 7. capital punishment. That which we could notrestore, w e s hould not take away. In all countries, in England, France, Germany, the U. S., Pennsylvania, Michigan-ill fact where ever thiere had been an amelioration of the criminal code, a diminuition of crime universally followed where the infliction of capital punisment had been abolished, crime diminished. Formerly capital pun ishment was inflicted for some 20 or 30 crimes. He would stand upon this position in this convention, and he demanded of gentleman to show the necessity for the infliction of this terrible punishmenet; if they failed in that their argument was reduced to the narrow ques tion of "blood for blood." They had not done so; and until they did he considered his ground to be impreg nable. He felt a reluctance at all times to say one word in this convention. He did not purpose occupy ing their attention any more;t'or he came here to listen to the others, and if he could to derive benefit from their wisdom and not to obtrude his own opinions before this body. IMr. ARCHIBOLD observed that he had not made any reflections upon the benevolence of those who ad vocated the abolition of capital punishment. Hee knew many most worthy gentlemen, some belonging to the samne society of which the gentleman (Ma. BATES) was a member-strennuously advocated the same side of the question that the gentleman dic. Mr. MITCHELL (very inaudiblyl heard) said he apprehended it was rather out of order now to discuss this question undter the motion pending. Still if it were the pleasure of the convention to indulge, he would be glad to submit a very few remarks in reply to what was said by thie gentleman from Jefferson (Mr. BATES.) Several voices''proceed." Hie had discovered since the commencement of the session of the convention, (as he thought every member of the convention had) that this gentieman desired to speak to the point at all times, always within the bounds of reason, and never state anything which he did not believe would be supported by truth. This discussion had proceeded from the out set upon the hypothesis that this doctrine as drawn from the scripture belongs to and was part of the Levitcal code commonly denominated the law of retaliation. This he proposed to show was a great mistake. The text cited by the gentleman from Auglaize, found in th~ 9th chapter of Genesis, has at all times, by those taking part in the discussion, been treated as belonging to this class of' laws. A simple reference to that text would show this to be an error. This text reads "whosoever sheddetn man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made he man."' Here sir is the reason. Here sir is the reason clearly assigned for the rigor of this punishment. It is sir, because he who wilfully and maliciously strikes a blow at the life of a fellow-man, thereby aims a blow at the image of his Maker. This is the reason assigned by the Almighty himself for this severe punishment, for this highest of human offences. The Sacred Scriptures as- he maintained were not left in dubiousness upon any subject; and upon this subject of all others they were more perfectly clear. It was most evident that the construction given to this text by the gentleman from Licking (Mr. CAsE) was not the true one. Various texts settle this. He would refer to a few only. Exodus xxi and 12, Lev. xxiv and 17, Num. xxxv, xix 31, Dent., 11, 12 and 15. He would ask the most serious attention of the gentleman from Jefferson (Mr. BATEs] to this matter. The gentleman he was well assured believed inl that Book containing the words of eternal truth; he believed it too. And he believed that that book like all others was to be construed by taking every part of it together. Taking this mode of construing the sacred scripture, and not the slightest doubt was left as to the m-eaning of the text first quoted by the gentleman from Auglaize, and repeated by the gentleman from Jefferson, "Should a man slay his brothe r b y the provide nce ofGod, if hie fly to the House-of Refuge he was saved. But if through malice he kille d h is me llow-maha -if he should show such a disregard for the life given by his Maker, a nd t he sacred i mage designed by God to be connected t here with as to aim a deadly blow at his brother he was cast offfrom the house of Israel. If then he flew to the House of Refuge, the Elders of the House of Refuge and of the house of Israel were required to deliver him up that his life might be taken and that the guilt of in nocent blood might b~ taken away from the house of Israel, that it might go well with them. The text from Deuteronomy is very clear to this point. Ile desired to call the attention of the gentleman from Jefferson to the texts above. cized in the Books of Name bers and Deuteronomy. These showed the meaning of this text from Genesis most clearly. He desired to be rightly understood ill this matter. He did not be lieve that everything which belonged to the Levitical code was binding upon us now. The Levitical dispen sation he considered in part a practical one. and many of its enactments had their fulfillment and had been re pealed. Among them perhaps we ni ay safely say was the law of Retaliation. When the great lharbiniger of mercy came down from heaven he showed us that this part of the law, or one principle contained in it, was to have an elnd. One object of this law with many other of the Levitical institutions was to irpress the mind of men with some just sense of the rgoI-s of Justice when unmitigated by the benignity of mercy. When the great fountain and author of mercy to our race, had come and was about to publish ill the most ample manner his great-dispensationis of mercy and for giveness, it was entirely necessary that he, Slould mit igate or repeal some portions of that first dispensation, whose every page declared that "the soul that siinneth it shall die." Accordingly in many things he did thus mitigate or repeal this rigor of the Levitical code. He was one of those who believed that there was nothing in the inspired volume which could not be defended on the principles of justice -anid sound reasoning. Here, then, was an express declaration of the necessity of graduating the punishments with which certain Offences were to be visited. He maintained that this was sufficient to establish the doctrine contended for, and that this doctrine is sustained also by the soundest principles of ethics: What was otne of the great objects to be attained in the establishment of a criminal code? Clearly it is the graduation of the punishmenit of crime according to its enormity. The object of punishment was to inspire in the minds of meni that fear of the comm,niission of crime, which would be sufficient to keep thfem within the limits of propriety and virtue. Take that alone, and it was in itself sufficient. He would ask what crinkle was there so great as the one here spoken of; ana where will you find a punishment proportioned to it unless you adopt the one here proposed to be assigned. There was nothing in the form of punishment which bore a comparison to the crime, but the punishment of death. We punish a-great many crimes by imprisonment for life in the penitentiary; and it was necessary. Hec knew that there had been a great disproportion in the gradation of punishment to crime. But a wise gov* ernmenlt would always graduate the punishment to the henliousness ofthe o'ftence as nlearly as possible. At this time he would take occasion to enter his protest against thedoctrine which obtained oil this floor,. viz: that the protection of society was the only considera. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATUtRDAY, DECEMBER 7. tion for the infliction of punishment upon offenders. fore called upon those in favor of capital punishment, He maintained that there was an inherent iniquity in to bring forward more substantial reasons than had yet crime, independeut of any other considerations, which been done. demanded punishment, and he maintained that this in- The question being upon recomlmitting the article, herent iniquity of crime rested upon grounds entirely The Convention divided-affirmnative 27, negative not distinct from connection with society. IHe contended counted. that if a man living in a wilderness with but two oth- The motion was lost. ers, killed designedly one of them, he was as deeply The question recurred upon agreeing to the report steeped in crime as if he committed that murder while cf the Committee of the Whole. residing in the midst of thousands. The crime de- Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I desire to say a word in manded punishment in the one instance as much as inll explanation of the vote I anm about to give, Personally the other. That was a high ground which should not I am opposed to capital punishment, and if this were be overlooked. He admitted that the pretection of so- a legislative body-if we were making a law which ciety was an important consideration; but when gen- might readiliy be repealed if found to be inexpedient, I tiemtnen said it was the only one, he believed they com- certainly would vote to abolish capital punishment. mitted a great qnd dangerous error. We are now, however, preparing a fundamental law Mr. BATES (by consent) said that he desired to for the State of Ohio. This question as to whether it thank his friend from Knox for the favorable opinion would be right and expedient or not, to abolish capital expressed of him however undeserving it might be, and punishment, is one at least of doubt; it would in fact if he would convince him that the command "Whoso beanhexperiment. And, if capital pui-ishmenet should sheddeth man's blood by man shall his blood be shed," be abolished, my opinion is that it should be done in was a command still in force, he would go with him such a manner, that the steps could be retraced if found hand in hand. But he thought it a very doubtful ques- to be wrong and inexpedient. I inltend to vote in favor tion whether it was ever a binding commanid in the of the report of the Committee of the Whole, that is, sense in which the gentleman took it. There was a to strike the whole matter out. Another reason why I text in the scripture which said we should not eat meat. shall vote as I have indicated is, that there are a great He supposed the gentleman eat meat every day of his many men in the State of Ohio opposed to the abolition life. In what part of the Scriptures was that injunc- of capital punishment; and if we incorporate that tion repealed? principle with the constitution there is a great danger Mr. MITCHELL was understood to reply unider the of arrayinlg very many votes against the adoption of dispensation to Moses-that privilege was expressly the instrument itself. We should degl ii generals limited. Certain meats were allowed and certain ones more, and in particulars less. Leave these matters prohibited. open to the legislature. I hear no complaint of our Mr. BATES observed he could find other texts. It present constitution in relation to this subject. Power is declared "that he that didpeth his hand with me in is there given to the legislature to apportion punish the dish the same shall betray me." Now does the ment to the enormity of the crimes.. That is all the gentleman from Knox, claim that this is a command or pi ople ask for, and if they desire the abolition of capi only a prophecy? tal punishment, let them so instruct the legislature. Mr. MITCHELL. Certainly it was only prophetic. Mr. TAYLOR next took the flicor, but for some But will the gentleman say, as a scholar, that the word titme was very indistinctly heard. He was understood "shall" in the Scriptures, has always aprophetic mean- to recommend the convention to pursue the same ing? (Mr. BATES replied, certainly not.) Again course towards this article, which it had taken in rela there was another text which said, "he who taketh the tion to other articles at this stage of the proceedings, sword shall perish by the sword"-was this an imnpera- viz: to lay the article upon the table. He considered tivecommand? Stillbiindinguponus? Isit notrather that the convention should not, by its action in this a prophetic warning? If the gentleman coutended for matter, forestall public opinion. It should not take an this principle here, let him carry out the entire law attitude of refusal, but rather shlould decline taking and apply it to all descriptions of crime. He would any furtheraction on the subject. Thtie convention by refer to the provision in relation to adultery, which ac- its action here, should say, if it would be said siglti cording to that law was punished with death. When ficantly, that this question was left with all its merits the woman was brought before our Saviour, did he co-m- pro et con for the action of the representatives of the mand her to be stonied to death? No-he said "go people in the Legislature, at some future period. He and sil tno more," although the Levit;cal dispensation moved therefore that the report with the pending punished the crime with death. His belief was that the amendments be laid upon the table. Levitical law was suited to the age in which it was Mr. MASON. I believe, sir, the motion to lay tilhe made, but was superseded by a pure and more perfect report upon the table is nota debatable one. I will ask law, the Christian dispensation, which should be our the gentleman to have the kindness to withdraw it. guide in preferenc to the Mosaic code. The motion was withdrawn. Did not "blood[or.blood"' amount to the same thing Mr. MASON. I desire to say a few words, as the as "tooth for tooth" and "eye for eye?" It was nothing argument has not been conducted on the side of those whatever but the same principle inculcated in different who favor retention of capital punishment with any words. But there is another command which said view to meet the arguments on the other side, unless it "thou shalt not kill." Did it say that man, in his pri- has been done by one gentleman. The argument in vate capacity, shall not kill, but thats legally appoint- favor of capital punishment may be sustained, as I un ed executioner should, at the direction of judicial offi- derstand, from two sources. There is a sound, and I cers, take away human life? No such thing. The believe solid scriptural argument. That I pass by; it command was promulgated under the old dispensation, has been already gone into. There is another argument (and if I may use the term,) re-affirmed by Christ, that may be deemed by gentlemen here, more appro when personally upon the earth-a command universal priate, or at least if not more appropriate, they may re in its application, and perpetual in its duration! He gard it probably as more in accordance with the argu thought the texts cited to sustain the death penalty,! ments and principles of Statesmen. Society has the were of too doubtful construction, (even if not repeal- * right to take the life of the murderer on the same prin ed,) to be considered as imperatively bipding commands' ci1)!e that an individnal ix(s thc. irigltt to take the life of upon us to take the life of our fellow man. He there the inaii who assails lhim with a aiiurderous iutent. The 31 32 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DECEMBER 7. right of self-defence exists not only in a state of na ture, but also in a state of society-in the social condi tion. And, whenever society is assailed in the person ofoneofits memberswiththeintenttotakethe lifeofthat member, society may take the life of theassailant, the in divid ual assailed having failed successfully to assert the right of nature in that given case. No one doubts this. No one doubts but that I have the right to take the life of the man who assails me with the intent of depriving me of my life-that I have a right to repel force with force, and with such an amount of force as will overcome the resistance with which I am met. Whether the gentleman from Jefferson, (Mr. BATES,) will agree with me or not, I do not know. Mr. BATES. I will ask the gentleman if a man at tacked him, and lie overcame the assailer, and had him in his power, tied down, would he have the right to take his life? Mr. MASON. I suppose the argumentis successful if we establish the fact that the person assailed has the right to take the life of the assailant. And if there be an exception, I would ask the gentleman if an excep tion to a general rule has the effect to overthrow a general principle? Mr. BATES, (indistinctly heard.) The exception does not apply. You must have a man in your pos session, thoroughly secured, before you hang him. Mr. MASON. Thlen the argument is that when you have a man in your power after murdering anoth- er, you are to spare his life. Mr. BATES. That is it. Mr. MASON. I said that the right of sell-defence is not surrendered by entering into society, for in a state of society, if assailed, it is my admitted right to resist the assailant to the extent of taking his life, if necessary to save my own. I am faultless-he is guil. ty-one or the other must suffer in the struggle-the life ofthe one or other must be forfeited. The theory of ustice and of truth says that the life of the guilty ought in such case to be taken, and the life of the in nocent party preserved. The rights of every individual in a state of nature revert to the society of which he is a member; and whatever individuals can do, society can do-otherwise society affords a less degree of pro tection for the rights of individuals than a state of na ture. It has been adduced here by of,e gentleman, as an argument against capital punishment, that everyman who commits a murder is insane. There is no authority for the declaration. You may track the steps of the murderer, and at every step you will perceive traces of design-of purpose-of cunning-of contrivance-often the most complicated and ingenious contrivances. Why talk of the insanity of the man who has long plotted the death of his victim? Why talk of the insanity of the man who has exerted the whole of his powers of reason and intellect to compass a given end? The assumption is gratuitous. Then, again, the doctrine has been advanced here, in opposition to the infliction of capital punishment, that the offence of the murderer rises- out of the defective organization of society. Those who have used that reasoning bave not favored the Convention with a plan for the re-construction of society upon such a basis as will prevent the perpetration of those high crimes. Gentlemen who use that argument ought to favor the: world w ith their new l ights, that the world may have the benefit and advantage of those principles upon which society can be re-constructed, so as to repress crime. It is said, too, that a portion of the community have "absorbed" all the weakth, and therefore those who are not so rich as the other part, are at liberty to prowl upon the community an* take the life of those who have been m ore th rift y and i ndustr ious than them selves. Mr. SMITH, of Wyandott, here interposed, and was und e rstood to observe th a ht what he had said in the course of his remarks was, that the centralization of property, as it large cities, conduced to t he commission of crime. Mr. MASON. Mr. President, does it follow beca use a man is poor that he must be a knave, and not only a knave, but a reprobate? Does it follow from that that he ha s neither the fear of God nor of man before his eyes? Must he be a robber and a murder er be ca use he ha s not as man cattle, o os or horses, or broad acres of land as his neighbor? "Let him who is poor rejoice in that he is poor." That is the doctrine o f Holy Writ, and I believe the doctrine and the great principle which it announces. If a man commit a murder, there is an authorized tribunal to investigate the matte r, and if his excuse be sufficient, he bo shall have the benefit of the plea. Then, again, it ist t saidsome men are obliged toeom mit murder on a cc ount of thei r phy sical organization. Their phrenological develop m ents are such that the y cannot prevent themselves from committing murder, and therefore they ought to be excused, and should not suffer the pe nalty. Mr. President, I believe in no theory of morals, nor of philosophy, which teaches that man is not an ac countable creature-that he is not the subject of moral government. I deny and denounce every new fangled theory, hatched in the brain of dreamers, that goes to destroy the moral accountability of man. Man is free, and the consciousness that he is free exists in the bosom of every, man, and the man who asserts the contrary knows that he is a free agent. Sir, there is nothing in man's physical nature that necessarily 'makes him a murderer, or a traitor, or an adulterer, or a drunkard, or a thief, The difficulty is in the heart of man; it is the depravity of his nature-it is the depravity of his moral principles-it is that his heart is a fountain of corruption. The great teacher sent down from Heaven, (for which we ought to be thankftif,) declared the invaluable truth, "that out of the heart of man proceed murders, &c." The gentle man from Wyandot, [Mr. Smi,] says thatiout of the head of a man and his phrenological bumps pro ceed murders. [Laughter.] Man is a morol agent and an accountable being. He is accountable for his actions, and he can do, and forbear to do, as he wills. During this present debate, and since it commenced, there was laid upon your tables a newspaper contain ing an account of an attempt to murder a whole fam ily in the Northern part of the State. A family a sleep-a family at peace, was invaded at the dead hours of night by a man wvith a murderous knife,'and, he then undertook to murder that-entire family that he' might plunder the house. Think ye there was a phre — nologilal excuse for that scoundrel? Does not every man feel in his bosom something that rises up to repel such anapology for crime? I have very rarely heard-the advocates of this doctrine declare voluntarily and from. their hearts, that they sympathized with the slaugrhtered .,man, his children and widowed wife, unless they haver been challenged to do so, and then they have done it pefforroe and technically. Their tsars do not seem to fall upon the graves of the slaughtered family; but their sympathies seem rather to gather about the blood stained murderer. Talus him away from society? -What a -tremendous shock does it give their sensitive nerves~ '"See a manl executed? Yes,- I would rather see man execusted than to see that samne man engaged irm the dead hours of night butchering in their sleep men~ iwomen and children, suspecting no harm.i Mach rather would I see men executed in accordance with, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY PECEMBER 7. the forms of law, in accordance with the principles of' Mr. MANON denied that he was of those who justice and truth than to see them prowling about coi- would take a murderer into his ~amily. Nor was he inittiig murder with impunity. There never has been willing that a murderer should run at large. The genfound, and iever will be found a sufficient protection tlemaii last up seemed to argue that those who advociagainst crimes of this sort, but that which is to be ted the abolition f capital punishmenet were in favor of fouind intakiig the lifeofthemurderer. He hasishIown such a system. He entirely denied it. Because this by his conduct that he is dangerous to society —that principle had not the stamp of long trial imprinted there can be no safety to that society, but by cutting upon it, that was no argument against its justice. The off the rotten member, that the communIity may be ge9tlemanl was for following in the "old pathls." If purged of the murderer. Allow a man who com- lie could have his way he would not favor ally reformn mits a delibdrate murder in the streets of this city to in our constitution at all; at least he (Mr. MANON) go at large and invite him to your next party! Would considered so from the general tone of the gentlenian's you like to take the murderer by the hand and smile speech. He thought we ought to act in regard to this upon him and introduce him to your wife and daugh- article in the same manner that the convention had ters with the mark of Caini upon his brow? No! eve- four louths ago with other articles, and not to press it ry man has an isstinctive abhorrence of the murderer through now. He was in favor of re-commiitting the — no man twill associate with him. But he is good article. enough to mix with the inmates of the penitentiaries! 9 >... 1..> - * Mr. HAWKKINS observed that the gentleman from "Spare his life a little longer-life is too dear to be Clark (Mr. MASON) d brought some charges against % swn s ~~~~~~~~~Clark (lMr. Mssos) lind brougfht somle charges again~st taken away." But life was not too dear for the fiend . >. l. X t >... ~~the advocates of the abolition of capital punishmlent, to take life by the wholesale. No sir, never let capital adoaes chaab toof char theiet ,andoeraserious character too. H-e chargedtheinwith punisllment be abolished as long as there is capital not possessing any sympathy for the family of the mur crime to punish-never while there is another murder- 0,. X r nX,, dered mal, and that all their sympathy Wias with the er on the face of the earth. There is no other safety. 1.. na~~urderer'. Did he aeriourly instend this? to society-it Is the only way iii which it call protect r. D sev r id is Mr. MASON never applied his remarks personally itself. It is the only methlod by which we can insure in this hal. He sid that the doctrine by which that t 1 * n.^ e * ll1~~~~~i this hall. He said that the doctrin~e by which that that peace, protection and enjoyment of life and happi - PI. arguument was upheld- was based more upon a sympa hnes, tnat man has ever devised. Yo nt 1ever haveb.en,l nes,tht man has ever devised. You never have been thy with the murderer than with the family of the and never will be furnished with a remedy by the u n. >,,.. o. rI]11mrdered. He trusted that ge~stlemans uould under science of phrenology or infidelity, in any of their va- tea o n I de stand and appreciate the position which he had taken rious developments. And I recommend you sir, to in t matter. take care how you adopt these new lights. They nev- Mr. HAWKINS could assign no further reason in er have done anything but bewilder those who h1ave r-H KI cudasgnofrh ef0 er have done anything but bewilder those who have suppart of his position, than the well ascertained fact, embraced their doctrines. LeL us follow the old patIs * Z * T~~r. 1. > *. a ~that the punilshment of death wou ld increase the amount in this case. We have the law of nature and ota t he puishment ofdeath would increase the amount of crime. by fatmiliarizing the people with scene s of ture's God, as I believe, and we have the law of self me by alar g the people wth sees of def e to u l us in te..n human cruelty and suffering. He gave an instance of defenCe to uphold us in the doctrine of taking the mur-' t a-r Isqw r,t,1 Z * s |this kind in the historv of a young man of Morgan derer's life. The life of the murderer is only takeng man of Morgan i county, who was of good promise till after he had trav when lie has committed murder in the first des,ree; - that is with malice aforethought-deliberat ly iconcoct elled down the river and elsewhere; and after hlie had witiieszeal several public executions of criminals, ant ed and well considered malice. Murder in the second witesd severa public execuions o criminals an. had become familiar with the destruction of humnan life, degree is now punishable with imprisonment; and yo he committed a murder iii this City, and was himself have no security in the punishment in the penitentiary h te a euer that the mali will be retained. You have a pardoning T O ul) by tle executioner. power to interpose. The walls of the penitentiary ared to lay the report ad peding eamendments, upon thle table. not always secure; they are not sufficient to secure s o-n s t, IThis mwotion was lost, upon a dlivision —affirmativ~~ ciety against the depredations of such men-there is no'Thisegatioe wo. 29, negative 37. security. security. ~~~~~~~~~Mr. L ARS H moved that the Convention take a recess I wish to state to this body a circumstance which Mr.L&RSHmoved that t e ntio n tken recess came within my own judicial experince. it is a casc till three o'clock: but gave way for a motion to adjourn, came within my own judicial experience. It is a caseb r EMLN Bebv Mr. REEMELIN. in point, and a cae that furnishes a powerful argu- This motion was also lost upon a division-affirma. ment against abolishing capital punishment. Withi n tiw 38, negative 39. my own judicial circuit a man was charged with the Mr. MORRIS said he should vote for the amendment. murder of his wife a few vears ago. He was indicted, M o and all men knew that the mangled corpse of his wife although he concurred fully in the principle of the an all menknew that te mangl e d crpeof hi w iepoosition as originally reported. There was a ~divis furnished indubitable and conclusive evidence that he proposition as originally reported. There as vi was the murderer. He had murdered her in the most ion of opinion ainoingst the people of this State with wanton and cruel manner in the dead hours of niLht referetnce to this principle, and he feared that the adop The protector and natural guardian of that woman be tion of the report might operate against the acceptance came a demon-not upon the doctrinies of phrenology of the Constitution. He would freely vote for a reso came demo —no uponthe dctries o f phrenlogylution declaratory of the opiniioni of the Convention, in either-and he took the life of the partner of his bof the Com.vetion i ither so ~~~~~~~~~~ the very terms of this report. He was imprisoned: that man broke jail, went to an very terms o this report. The PRESIDENT said the first question was upon adjoining state, married, and again murdered his wife. The PRESIDENT said he first quetio w po He was arrested and tried in Baltimore-he was con- sIkig out the two first lines of the section. victed and executed, to the satisfaction of thousands Ylr 1A'VES roved to lay the report upon the table. that had been made acquainted with his guihy ca- Thismotion was lost-affirmitive35, negative 42. reer. There was no punishment for such a man that Mr. GREEN, of Ross moved that the further con would satisfy the most benevolent feelings of the hu- sideration of this subject be indefinitely postponed; and man heart except the one inflicted. Two or three he demanded the yeas and nays upon this question. wives that man butchered; for it was not well ascer- Mr. CASE, of Hocking, moved that the convention tained that he had not killed one before. With these do now adjourn. remarks I conclude, thanking the convention for the The yeas and nays being demanded and taken upon attention with which many of them have been pleased this motion, the Secretary reported-yeas 42, nays 4'2, to honor me. as follows: 33 31 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES MONDAY, DECEMIBER 9. of Morgan County, Ohio, on the subject of licences for the sale of spirituous liquors; a communication from the Court of Co'nmon Pleas of the same county, recommending that a clause be inserted in the new constitution, "providing for some uniform rule for the prevention of the evils of intemperance." Mr. RIDDLE presented a petition from John R. Smith,- and thirty-seven other citizens of Hamilton county, asking that a clause be inserted in the new constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from legalizing the traffic in spirituous liquors. MThe President presen ted petitions from Ann P. mpMcLaughlin, Sarah G. Daughter,s Sarah Clark Hunt, Mary Hardin and Sarah T. D. Clark, and two hundred and forty nine others, ladies of Clermont County, on the same subject. Said petitions were severally referred to the select committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. The President then laid before the Convention, the following communication from the Ohio Mechaeic's Institute. I YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Brow of Athens. Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Collings, (Cu ler. Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Hawkins Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Holmes, Hootman, Humyiphreville Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Kirliwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leech Loudon, Manon. Norris, Orton, Perkins, Reemelin, Rol Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, St ebbins, Stickney Stidger, Struble, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Townshend and Vance of Champaign —49. NAYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bennett, Brown o Carroll,Calhill,Chambers,C-haney,Curry, Ewart, Farr, Forbes Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton. Hard, Harlan Henderson, Horton, Jones, Kennon. Lidey, Mason, Mitchell Morehead, Morris, McCloud,)Pattersen,, Quigley, Ranney Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Warren Smith o! Wyandot, St&nton, Stilwell, Thompson of Shelby Vance or Butler, Warren, Woodbury and W orthington-42 So the Convention refused to adjourn. And the question recurring upon Mr. GREEN, 0 Ross' motion to postpone indefinitely,and the yeas ane nays being taken thereon, the Secretary reportedyeas 50, nays 34, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Barnet, of Montgomery, Bennett Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Curry, Cutler Ewart Forbes, Grahamn, Greene or Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Greesbeck, Hamilton, Hard Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Johnson, Jones Kennon, Kirkwood, Leech, Lidey, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris. McCloud, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Anglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, and Worthington-5t<. NAYS —Messrs. Barnett. of Preble, Bates, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Cook. Farr,.Gillett, Gray, Holmes, Hootmnan, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Larsh, Larwill, Loudlon, Manon, Nash, Norris, Orton, Perkinis, Reemelin, Sellers. Smith of Wyandot, Stebbens, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Taylor, Towushend, Vance of Champaign Wilson and Woodbury-34. H.ALL OHIO MECHANIC;S INSTITUT]I,, CINCINNATI, DEC. 6, 1850. At a meeting of the Institute held on the 4th instant, it was unanimously Reselved, "That the h-ospitalities of the Ohio Mechanics' Institute be tendered to the members of the Ohio State Convention now in st ssion in this city." Ylou will please therefore equest the members of the Con. vention to visit the rooms of the Institute and register their names with the Actuary. T Y ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~. ado~.a. ~.,..u AL. To the President of the Ohio State/ Convention, College Hall. I MR. TOWNSHEND offered the following resolu tion, which was adopted: Resolved, That the thanks of this Convention be present ed to the officers and members of the Ohio Mechanics' Insti tute, for their polite tender of the privileges of that inistitu tion, to the members of this Convention. On motion of MR. SMITH, of Warren, the Convention resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole upon the orders of the day. Mr. LEADBETTER in the chair. The order being the report of the Standing Com mittee on the Judicial Department, Mr. SMITH, of Warren, moved that in consequence of the absence of several gentlemen, members of the Committee by which said report was drawn up, the same be laid over, which was agreed to. - The next order, being the report of the Standing Committee on Finance and Taxation, was then taken up. SEC 1. That the levying of taxes by the poll, is grievous and o ppressive; therefore, the Legislature shall never levy a poll tax for County or State purposes. - MR. RANNEY moved to strike out of the second line the-words "county or State purposes," and insert in their place the words, "for any purpose." Mr. RANNEY said that he knew no reason why the principle declared in this section should be confined in its operation to the county and State merely, or why it-.is not equally just and equal in its appication to townships. Nor did he know why the General Assembly should have power over the subject in regard to counties more than States. - He believed in the fundamnental principle with which the Msection set out, that "the levying of taxes by the poll is grievous and oppressive," and he desired to have that principle carried into effect in this Constitution in the most -ample and perfect manner. Under our present system-of laws, there is but one maimer in which a tax by the poll Is levied-fori road purposes. This lawNr enforces upon every citizenl the So the motion was agreed to, and'the further consideration of the report and amendments were indefinitely postponed. And then, upon the motion of Mr. SMITH, of Warren, that was agreed to. The -Conventioni adjourned tilli Monday mnorning, 9 o'clock. FIFTY.NINTH DAY. MONDAY, December 9, 1850. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment-the President in the chair. Mr. TAYLOR presented a petition from James Brown and twenty others, citizens of Cincinnati, praying that a clause be inserted in the new constitution granting to colored persons the right of suffrage. On motion of the same, the petition was laid on the table. Mr. QUIGLEY presened a petition from William S. Travis, William Miller, and forty-five others, citizens of Ohio, asking that a clause be inserted in the new constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law authorizing the traffic inspirituous liquors. Mr. ORTON presented a petition from S. B. Foster and forty-six others, citizens of Sandusky county, Ohi o, on the same subject. Mr. STEBBINS presented a petition from S. H. Dodd and thirty-five others o n the same subjectalso a petition from B. A Crochet and twenty others, citizens of Henry county, on the same subject. Mr. DORSEY presented a petition from J. M. CCaven, D. H. Place, and fifty-seven others, on the same subject. Said petitions were severally referred to the Select Committee on the sl,;ect of retailinc, ardent spirits. Mr. BROWN of Atliens, pr esented a petition from Israel E. Heacock, and four hundred others, Citizens RY order' &C. JOHN'S. WHETSTONE, Cor. Scc. 0. M. 1. 0111 PONVEIONi)EDE ATES-Mo AY, DlNE"BER 9, er-thousands.) He thoughtit the dut3tyf the; ovenp h w ts t eYe tion to say' here, that no such law,orsich;practie, tl- shall in titure be aIlow' He did not k. noIthat L- h h a o n o'there w're, at present, ayoher taxes the kind in -e the Sta but the re might'be' if do not come up L -axl the p, nipto which w ae hadetelated, and ty that d'' itshall ndt be done. iHe ~'anted' to se, this done in te h-e iConstitution, Even admitting that, at present the cny ie, s t people do not' com:iain under'the preient prale, re they may do so unditer-a practice more stringent ajid .n1,Tetrd,,s s and who, can say,that stuch an one ny not' in s future oain. By admitting the prini we throw si open the. doer for abuse.: By~such: n:mission,u e,,f i der ethe,reset practice, we equivocate:, and,' in fat, i w-deny whilewe assert,it.Tax,ation acording to prfe epserty is;the correct principle. Here] is the place upn y, whiih We, are to take our stand, and a,-sert it..:' . pGentlemen say that this is a copy of-the prst ts,:Constutiion. his is undoubtedly true, and, in -the -. abstract, so far as it goes it lays.down dhe-t,ue doee.trine., But,it does not go far enough. He waited:to pt cut off in future the means of practising a falsity..e ? was willing,to retain the prnciples of the, present tte.Constitu.tion,. but when that instrument ada'ts of,a biwpractice foreign and opsed to the rincle'w.ch fit declares, he wanted to amend it. - Ikgenkmen ill I mmatain, and,prove.os hat it irigtto tax -the - person as well as tihe poperty) he woul abandon the l ground he had' taken;:'but s lon'asthey adm'it. the u, toprincple:that property is the ony basis of taation. .- he should go for carrying out that principl,e, whereve,r .it migh~t lead himX,.folra-ceonelusio.0.,, r<:,/,,. v ,ue w e wl, Mr. SAWY'ER said..t~hat'he- Was not satisfied that the old,Constitution is'wrong. ae th:ought that in he .case that had' been c,ted, by his friend frm Trumbull, s(MrI. RAitNEY,) a'deviation from the strict-ruleis not onlyLproper, but necessary. We inthe first ptac,, set .out with,the Ipropo sition,.that no- man, however - poor . T and insignificanthe-may be,has.nt an interest in th public roads equal, to,the t,wo dollars which' he a%nual%y pays. Ia., pays this b.ause he is a -i.nn and a ci, en. t t uMy friend:-may be, anda 1 suppos-0e is, r'ih.-. TI. am not. MiaWe eaih' work out o,r two,dollars. T~he, we b-gin upon property. IIwho have noie, pay nothing. e, who has much, pays in proportion. Who-complains? - Thereisa n oltho'oaso ia-vhich thispri'p!e i8 ar dplied. Everv,yman has.an interest ia theprsservatiP a of that,goverihment Which protects his person. and his property, and to that end, we perfo,rm mn,ilitary d uty. The poor as well as the rich, are required to'do this, o ieupon the principle,:that every nlati oveshis- countr ,better, w T, feels that he can contribUte his mite fo tier defence. The poor he had tbserve'in such cases feet as s tro n ly s-iotict dt-esie s ale. thing by which theycan id jeni fy-themet, s,-with the publce interests. We see man ready, to do min tarfy dUtY from whom not a cent, by way of fite,s'uod bedcori.ted fo~r delinquency..'...,,',.',:. -.. - Besides there are p 0ions of te,State, yet o'new that-they a'osld not, wiso'eut a reat n'ijury, i t with this ibt.he, cul8,,not,/el':e.hi, e fs~t t~ee/heo fwt,,!that.tberp.mu~st,'in tis~cease~'bgalto w: 'The qu estioa."b'isi0.f- 0in the am qo/nti's' ta.me wu tdisagreed to o,il'aiv/islo'n; ayes:'g;;'n/,'n.9!?:,-,,,i'.-'- ' Sic.- 2. The LegSl8atUre \sWa1.~~O.ie. by'ia a, - nf ~ru~ of,,.Xses,meut] a,nd- tnaXSa,gnG.'sh~t':p'r' e~'irld bT9Fch regma~.ns as win. se~.U~r~- j-us'/lattn 3 o / a,,1' pr', ",41C1e i-'. both rea1 area personal: Provided, school'houses, b'uryia~ obligatetion u gt perfiourma giVoen amount b. labr on at public' hightway;.and this;' without'rgr d.t'~ amount of roierty he ma eposseSso,'ii fact wh, er he have o perty or not. T he object of it e anie nd dei t proposed eis to,get rid of,t has as w Sa f'ofa,the possibilityf a o taxes o f tehise aracter asi w h el N townshaips s'in e unties and Sates. hlfe meinvet 'a th at wheer ae-r,na onecen y have e. ofd,'ina thb countryi whle it was-oneW tnd obv t spar.eyw b utt fd and few roads exlsted,'that 7necessity' now-nol1ngel tcoinues. Thet'true do ctrine s eeis ho - be, t hat t,at the property of t' State S,hMl pay' all the1ex1 ense of f'keeping the iroads as weHll a pert or uth oters. Het had nlong been of t a'the opinion thatht io positio n was an unhust one, and now asit has':bee ors long a t im e-, a d l parti of ot generalh Poicybe.tht S tate, he though it couldonly be puievt teid ttoi b a provis ion wtr th at piirpose in the onstiion. c It w ould seem as if there were an especial.o fitness in taxing'property, instead.of -persons-'0f6. road pu poses. Thee public roads imiprove the-valteof v th propert y. T hey ar e' Ifr quently constructed atr nthai purdose. Aw side from the convenienes they efrd't ihe:c-ommunity in general,they confer impoltant private benefits upon'individuals. Bu't-it was -to, m~intaii the integrity ofa the pr inciple thoat themoetion toi, ame was' made. -'.'','''.:..."' ~'-, Mr. LOUDON said th/t'as a member of the Com mittee that drew up tlhe' Report,'he felt himself called upon to state the netive that actuated' the Committee in, doing what it had done. The commit tee''had be lieved that in cases, whereetheo provisions o2 the Cone stitution under which we now live had.'iwriked'well and had been- concurred in'bv'the people,1 it was its duty to' adhere o to them.' hTh e section" now -under on sideration was taken verbatim from that'ins'trument. He'believed it:''woul'd be'conced.ed-' that: it had worked well'.'He- thought it wou ld continue to do so. iHe thought the peopl e W ere satisfied pwith:,it. Thes understood its operation and efets. Sofaras e knew they had never coiAIained, ain he did not think they would,''' Mr. RANNIEY said it, was true that, the, present provision i9 taken from the present Constitution; but tne chairmiain of the comeittee, [Mr. Louiox,] had not given anyv'reason in favor" o~ the pri ciple'ierolv: ed, in,it. -e desired to ask t-hat gentleman if he thought it consisten~t with the general:~princi/le upon which all?taxation should be based? ile'was aware -ath a no' t for the practice may have grown ,of the condition of the countryvat its earliest S'ettle-, ment; but' he believed that with the growthnf/,thecountry, and the distribution of -land. that necessity did no longer exist. It is provided that neitker State nor county taxes could be levied up'on n other sis than that of property; and,he,: for h-mlself, saw' no reason in'this isolated'ease, of departing from a principle at once so iust and so obvious. Under the: present'regulation, everv man —o miater whether he be poor or rich-whether hie\ have propert-. or not; is bound, without- regard to his means, or his condition, to pay, either in'money or in labor a tax that amounts to about two dollars per year, or( the benefit of the- pubiicI roads, and those who fappen teooWn property: situated Upon them, and'witho,Vt regard to the~ queshion whether theM~person pa~ying,re - ceivres.any benefit' o~r not.. Tn mala7y ases h'e knrew th.at it did,work u~njustly..w ThereX are'youn~g mien, re g siding a~way'~om hon',:who a~re; at; wor3 by the mo'nth, Who have di,sposed of,all,their; times t'o an~other.' To such an.. one the road is8' f.no,,eaeit:'' is.ti._qt :to him i8 nm,ney, You would r e~q Xu/rehim, to payhis } tw dollars, an,d you~would enfm[e;u~pbn''himxn the[ ob-:,. i'~ati0n with the sarn~ strictness a's'if he Were wo/~.h 0 - - 1; I I , % - I I! I I- I.. I I - 11 - 1".. I it,,. I. I I- 11 I - - 35 OHIO:CONVENTION:)EBATES — -MONDAY, DE.(:EMBFR 9. grounds, and grounds upon which religion edifices are erec. ted, not excce#ding in value, the sum of,: dOlttars, shallst not oe subject to pay a tax,. Mr.. ":K KWOOD mo-ed to strike *ut all in the, section, preceding the proviso, and insirt as follows: The General Assembly shah,pro ide by law,. for the levying of taxes upon il residents of this iState, in proportion to the amount of the property and assets owned' y each, deducting,therefrom the-dets by him owing, and upon the property of all non-residents according to the vale therei of., tax on the actual value of his or her prolJerty, real and pe'sonral, exClusive of debts, including all moneys~onxi:.!aid and mIoneys/at interest, the latter term embracing all moneys invested in Bank stocks,, and iall other stocks or,corp.ora,tiows. MI. DORSEY said that this amendment emnbraced nearly the substance of that proposed- y his friend and ho wever, the proviso in te nded -by th a t gentleman to-b Spcloedin te a, mendst he has ma in tview-that in,elation tos tate stocks- the propriety of wh ich o fissilu, he intended,to maintain.: I e desired to se e thie t axes of, the State levied upondall -property, wbhether i n lands, bank or any other stock,r mone ys at interest a nd ew ey species and description of valuables whatsoever;. He ShOuld not extend -his remarks for the present, but at anothe r opportunity intended to give his viewus aU.a trhe subject. Mr. BENlgETT said he should fforbear to detain the:0ommittee with any extended remarks for:the ,ptreseint; but he desire to suggest a difficulty that ad arisen in his own mind, reg arding -the' a~plication of thee plan proposed by the' gentlemar the' Richland (Mr. KiRKwooD) in making deduct,ions, in the case of: taxation of real' estate, where interests ,were owned by different persons. The principle that ,all,the'-propeily in the Ntate shall pay taxes -upon What it is'rorth, is right; but under the application of the principle made by the proposed amendments, it is easy to see that the taxes on many of the farms of the State will bear a very- small proportion to whift they are ~worth....f ~ Suppose, for instance, a man in the" Site of Ne-w York owns a farm in Ohio, and sells it to a citizen. of this State.- The price of the farm is ten thousand dollars. The purchaser pays Upon the purchase,one thousand dollars,, give s.,his notes for the balance.. He is'ta ed upon the one thousand dollars which he has paid,'and lie, ore. You cannot i.the proprietor in New York'; how will the remainilng nine, thousand dollars be taxed? Mr. LOUDON. The gentleman confounds-the section and amendments under consideration with the present tax law. It would seem that there would be no difficulty under this provision, forthe Legislature to provide for the taxation of all tile property ia the State.-; e' was opposed to going sp fax into det,il and to enact a Constitution that shall fixthe modus operandi in which all property is to,be ted. IThe Committee supposed that it would b e' o 1y ee ssary to assert the principle in its broad est senses and to leave'to the discretmon of'future Legislatures,,ttoenact such laws as would carry the general principle to full and equitable effeet.. For his part, he was unable to see how,any amendment could make it more plain than ittis.'iW.,. The section asserts the broad principle, and no amendmen:ts could do more or; make it more' plant The GCeneral Assembly are given full power to establish a syrstem of just and equal taxation on all property,.and that is all we' should require..!. Mr. KIRKWOOD intended to be brief. He had hoped that; the discussion would have been fre e aind general. Under our; present miode of taxation of real estate,- a man is taxes upon all the'God hoe:' tithe to, whbther he:has paid for it or not The ~amend~mjent he had offered'anounced the: 5ther doctrinea man- shall bel taxd only upon what he! is worth.' nifs Samendmenrt was hastily drawn up, arid he did' not Mhinik it ve~ry precise ill it;s t~erms. Siuch is the ea?* also'with'the gentleman.from Midat,i /(Mr.'DoaR~F.) Thegreat-questidn is, is it i~t bs /to adopt sueh->a principle?':'''' -We> say thy~ Vt/xaion by t~he poll'is grievous ~and 0ppresse-in other words, {hasproper~. i the only .Mr. KIRKW OODsaid that-he was not by any mea nscer4ain tiat-he should.vote for tbhe amendment, but offered it merely for the purpose of eliciting the views ofot-hers, who had given, more thought and attention to the subject. From such, he was desirous to hear. His object - whether secured by the amendment he had proposed or not, he was not so certain,) was to tax every man for what he is worth, and not for what he merely holds. -..For instance: If a man buys a farm of the vat ue of, and for which he is to pay, ten thousand dollars, for which he pays five thousand and continuies to owe a five, thousand dollars; he -expects, in- the course of years, by the acstaste, of -his own srkill eand labore tio make the money out of the land, to pay the balance. Uiider the present tax law, he -is taxed upon the whole ten thousand dollars. By w hat right is he so taxed? He desired by the amendment now liefore the Commllittee, so to fix it, that a man,infuture, will be taxed upon property only to the extent of his owt interest, and not upon the whole that he holds, whether his own or not. - M'r. BARBEE-was a member of the committethat made the report. With great deference for the opinions of the other meembers of the committee, he had been obliged to differ somlewhat in opinion fromr the- msori- t ty. He had intended at some tirte during the disus-i sion of thie report, to offer an amendment, embracing, p in some sort, the same doctrine with the present- that is, that as the true basis of taxation is property, a man should be taxed upon what he is worth, aad not upon the property that he holds. He intended at some future time, to move'the adoption of a section of the report of thie iinority of the: committee, which should embrace not only the proposition of the gentlemen from i Richland, (Mr. KiRKwoonD) butalso, a proposition that iii the taxation ot moneys at interest and other property of a like character, the faith of the State, pleoged by? repeated acts of the General Assembly, in relation to her own stocks, shall be held'inviolate. As a mere abstract principle, he could not see why our own stocks gbshould not be taxed, as well as those of other States; but he held that the faith of the State having been pledged to their exception from the general rule, they should form an exception, that Ohio might not stand changed- before the world with a violation of her e faith. m c u d. o M'.r. DORSEY held eqUa lly with the gentleman from Richland'(Mr. KIRKWOOD) that it is unjust to tax a maii for what he does not own. For example, in the instance cited,: he could not believe in the justice of making a man pay taes on the wbole farm, where in fact he is the -ownerof onyb one half. The true principle is to tax every thiingathat a man owns, Whether property orcred its deducting therefrom all. his debts and liabilities; and it did n6t seem tohim o he of cons equence whethber'the property consisted in'lainds or, stocks,8 money atinterest or anything else. He how-;, ev er frth prp ogiving a more full expression to hii his views,s proposed the fbl-.lowing amendment, to thei amendmrent now under,considerationa, s a substitute i for the same:'' t a o su.-.p i c l :The lli.gisrture,slqalI: p'rovivde',by: laws, a i,uniform aud equitabl-rule of itipn,_o that ever',person,,shall-py a 36 OHIO CONVENTION, DEBATES-MONDAY, DECEMBER 9. trie basis of taxation. In order to carry fout the, principle, we say that all the property shall pay all: the tax. Now, why shall I, by the forc of any circulmstances, pay mnore than my share? All the property in the State is valtied at, say one hundred millions of dollars. I tdwn roperty to the amnount of -one million. The taxation of the State is, say one 'huudred thousand dollars;: my share is one thousand. Why should I pay more or less than my share? I caniot see anything against the system, unless it is a difficulty resulting from a difference of opinion among the owners of property as to its value. But that difficulty could be obviated by official assessment of the value of the land, once in four years, and by obliging holders of real estate to make an exhibit of the interest they have in what they hold. Mr. BENNETT d esied red to inquire how a farm could be taxed equally with other property in the State, when t hn hold er owned only a small interest th e b alance in the form of, Notesu mo rt gages,- and tobligations, being the properte of a citize n of aitotherq State? -.-my HMr. KIRKWOOD. Th en it woul d not b e -taxed. You cannot ta x non-residents on t heir chattel pro party, of course. This may not be right, and'it m ay, if wrong,~ be obviated. He was glad to hear the question of the gentleman from Tuscarawas, (Mr., BENNETT.) The object he had-in view was -to:elicit 'discussion. He thought the principle he-had asserted to be right. Its detailsmuay be more difficult to arrange. He was in search of light upon this very difficult and interesting subject. - He thought the present law unjust in its operation. It calls upon many men to pay ta.xes upon more than they are worth. It brings in property for taxation twice over; once in the form of land, and again in the form of the obligations given for its purchase. Tho vendor and the vendee both pay; and a farm sold for tenl~ thousand dollars may readily be made to pay taXeS upon fifteen-ten thousand;the land, andfive thousand on the nmortgages. A. sells a farm for ten thousand dollars, for which he receives five thousand in hand, and takes notes secured by mortgage for five thougand& On this five thousand he is taxed, while at the same time,: B. is taxed for the: whole price of the farm, or ten thousand, dollars& This is wrong. The gentleman from Tuscarawas,-:(Mr:BENNET,) sUlgests that if the principle declared in the constituti is right, the details can be fixed' by the General Assembly.: He was anxious to hear the views of gentlemen.; - Mr. HUMPHREVILLE was disposed to apprecate the remna%rks of the'I-1iorabie ~halrman of the Com-mittee on Finance and Tax'atiOn, (MIr.LouDoN,) that it is desirable to retain the principles of the present Constitution, so far as they are consistent withi istice, and have received~ the assent of the people of the State. The mos't bjeeionable feature ofthe old,Con-stitution, that of the:polt tax, is retained in this. report. Heehad been in favor of the amendmmrit of the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RAN.VXEY,) and was in hopes that it would have prevailed.,,ewanted to seethe principle of taxation according to';property fully earrie~ out.,' HIe believed that as a general rule, property and:rot debits are the- subiect of taxation. When property is sold and dzbts- ar e bnItraeted, if-you tax the property, eq uity r e. flires that~yOu should n~ot- tax the d'ebts. If you tax b,ash debts and. property, you lacythe burden 'of tuba 1;axes' upon whk~',is e ssent~iafi, the s~ame.:estate: Yet he believed he had ra!ther bear t~he evils:of double t,axafio~n, than to allow ~the: Shylocks of the cou~ntry to go free of taxation. sMr. BARBEE. Would the gentlema n s ay th at we mME si tax the Shylocks, even if i n doing so, it is neesssary to lay.onua double tax? Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. Certainily.. Mr. BARBEE. It you lay a teyx on tipe Whole propeartv, where the holder o wnes but o ne half, do not vopu tr e a lly,lay a double tax? ms - lMr. bltMPIpREVILLE agreed i general with the State?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~t an far as posibeagantaueo (Mwr. andpat gertleman from Miami (Mr. BARbEE,) ndt he arose t o answer the gentleman from Tuscarawas (Mr. hltbN e?T), We say that property should be taxed b ut o nce. That is -bles uut he held that money at clteist should be taxed, even at the r isk of double taxation.. -It should ,be doubtl e ss avoide d, Nherever it i s Hpossible. This has been -partially done in Kentucky. Thliere the rule is that when' a man owes money, the amount of his indebtedn ess is deducted from his personal estate; whereas in Ohio, his debts are only deducted fran i his ,credits. But a C onstitution cannot be expected to,decend to the details of a system of taxation; that must be left to the General Assembly. Otur dutvyis to guard as far as possible against abuse of p owe r and depa rture from princ. We can do no more. t C t In the case. put by the gentleman f ntrom Tuscarawas whe n A. inNew oYork sells a'faremi t6 B. in Ohi for ten thousand dollars, of which -B. opars one halfin hand, and owes the balance. - What Iis to, te di-ie? Shall B. ded uct from the valuewof thel whol e farm w h at he owes toA.'? If so how shallwe collecta ix efnA. on the d e bt due him from B. It is easy enoug,h to enforce the payment by a process s i milar to that of a foreign attatchmennt in Ohio. Le t the debt from iB. be attached and if he pays the tax assessed againH sth A. le t the cer tifica t e of th Treasurer in Ohio be a legal set offagaiinst the debt due from him to A. Thifs flil I etecttall y re mo ve all difficulty. He Thougit' there was too danger of much law enacting i n thie Coistitutio. It isour duty to de clare getieoal. pfin ip les, an n ot to a ssume that we kblowmore t han any General Assembly th at ma y come after us. It h as bee said . that i f insome on e or tw o subjects, t he Gener al As nbly ahadbeen left by the present Conrstity tiT A lth a fittle more power, no necessity for this Constit-mojfn wo uld have arisen. Let ust not fall iAn to the s acs e erro r wh ich the r eally wise alldeminet me n ihat radeus our present form of government fell; having seen their error, let' us avoid the rock on which the sp l it.h i Mr. BARNETT of Preble, said the question now before the committee is an i mportant'one. -He differed with some of the gentlemen who had spoken upon it, and was opposed,to too great restriction'. Hen,was satisfied that'if the matter \ were left to the'General Assembly, that body would,,in its wisdom-, construct a good system. He desired' to' add' a few words to what had been said by the gentlenan"'from -Mediina, (Mr. H rm 1, ) in regard to enforcing upon nonresidents the obligations to pay taxes.'He thoiught the true remedy for that difficulty to be this: The matter is equitably distributed already. There are large owners of obligations for land sold'i-Ohio.le siding'in other States; so there are resident ik Ohio many holders of obligations for -land sold in'other States. He thought by the taxation of such credits ~the matter~was niearly balanced, and we gailn as- m~lch on o-ne hand As we lose on the other.,,. We muight leave t-he whole power -to the Genweral "Assembly, merely saying,'The (General,Assembnly shall have the power to provide Ran uniform systiem of taxation*".,g Mr. LARWIL.L Wanted the discussion to coiibtliue. He hoped, eventually, to arrive Mt somnefhinnffhat wtouldl meet the minds of gentlemen better thyn eithler the original report or theS amendments. Gentlemen 37 38 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- MONDAY, DEcEMBIER 9. seem disposed to leave everything to the General portant system of internal improvements. For the Assembly. If they were to persevere in the pra- purpose of carrying this forward, instead of taxing tice of such a spirit of liberality, we might cQnsum- the people, she had decided to issue her stocks and mate our labors here in a very short time. But it had at the same time pledged the public faith tha was his opinion that upon this subject and various they should not be taxed. She had at the time the others the people are desirous to take from the Leg- terms in her own hand. She made her proposition.to islature tlh sweeping powers it has had. It is due the world, based upon those terms, and thev were ae to us to fix some botunds to this power. If we do cepted, the stocks sold, the money realized and ex not, there will be great danger of abuse and fiuctua-.pended, and the works were constructed. From 1825 tiomns both in the system and the.amolint of taxation. to 1850, acts of the same character were passed from With this bill in general he was suited, but he thought time to time, all, with one exception only, containin it miight be improved. He intended, at a future time, the same provisions in regard to taxation. The last to offer,some amendmenits. ~to offer someamendments..act was in 1850, and has the same featre. Is it pro Mr. DORM~ thought the subject one of much -per now to repudiate in this particular the soleman importance, and that, considering its importance, and contract of the State? And is that the object of the the da+<~;of error, the anendment$h had presented gentlemrnan's amendment? Hewanted to see the ifat ,W irt quite as full and definif?e4s it should be. of the State preserved inviolate, whatever may e'the They embody primciples which he was anxious to effect. It is said by gentlemen, that the State being embody in the Constitutionrl.'He would agree with sovereign, the Legislature is sovereign. He did not. ' the honorable Chairman of the Standing Committee believe that one Legislature had power to annul a con (Mr. LOUDON,) that it was not proper to embody a tract that another Legislature had made. But supmere modus operandi in the Constitution. That he pose you assume this important power, are you nbot did not propose to do. He only desired to declare. violating a provision of the Constitution of theUnigreat and general principles, from which it is not ted States? There is a clause in that instruiument proproper, under any circumstances, to depart-that the hibiting any State from passing any law viilating the taxation be upon the actual value of what property obligations of contracts. In that particular, we'haoe is possessed by the individual who is taxed. It mat- given away a part of our sovereignty that we cannaot *ters not what that property consists of. He would take back again. Would not, then, our acts to that add a proviso: -"Such stocks to be taxed at the actual effect be a dead letter? Would it not be a direct at andnot the nominal money value." He didnot offer tempt to violate the Constitution of the United the proviso, but read it for information. He thought States? that if wve could include such a provision in the Con-' Mr. DORSEY. Did the gentleman from Miami stitution, great benefit would accrue from itto the make any motion? State of Ohio.. Mr. BARBEE said he knew it was out od order for The State has a right to draw a tax from all prop him to offer a proposition at this time, but he hoped erty and value possessed by her citizens, and has ao the gentleman would accept of his proposition as a right to tax any thing else. This is an answer at substitute. once, to the gentleman from Tuscarawas [Mr. BEa?T]:.I Mr. DORSEY was understood to decline. It matters not where a man lives, whether in Ohio or The CHAIRMAN stated the order: The gentlema Peninsylvania. or in any other State. If helives here, from Richland, [Mr. KRwooD,,] had proposed to and owns property here, tax him here. If he lives amend by striking out all the words of the seond there, and owns property there, tax him there. If a section of the report preceding the word "provided" citizen of Ohio has purchased a farm valued at ten and the gentlemaii from Miami had proposed a subthousand dollars, on which he has paid five thousand stitute for the-amendment of the gentleman from dollars, he ought not to be taxed except for the five Richland. The first question was upon the adoptionthbou-. d that he owns. Again, on all United States of the substitute. and o' her stocks, owned by citizens of Ohio, the State Mr. GIILLETT would name one objection to the ha a ri ght to, and will levy a tax. So upon all bank proposition of the gentleman over the way, (Mr stock-; wbethertl the banks be in Ohio, or other Doasmr.) If thatgentleman's proposition were laed States, she has- a right to.tax. He was not willing to in the organic la a man might be worth any amount let this Constitution go firom under the hands of this of money, and avoid the payment of asingle dime in Coinvention, until this principle is unequivocally laid tax. For example: He might sell his farm fbr $10,down, that on all stocks held in the State, our own as 000, and take the bonds of his purchaser; and go to wel] as tha'. of other States and countries, whatever his neighbor living on the opposite side of the river their value m,vt be, upon that value they should be in the State of Virginia, and purchase a farm in the taxed; and that no man, shall be forced to pay taxes rich bottom lands of hIis own county-paying nothupon what he owes for. ta ~upon w~hat he owes for. m.ing down, but giving his'bonds ftr paynaelit in 90, .Ny. itHNT said, suppose a merchant in the coun- 20, or140 years. Therefore, (he continued,).the As try had purchased ten thousand dollars worth of sessor might cdme round, and under the proposition goods of a merchant in Cincinuati, upon credit. —him- of the gentleman, ask-me what I am worth. I reply,I self iiot worth a copper, would you lay no tax upon I am worth nothing. But, he would say, you own a the goods in his hands? farm down in the bottom there. True, I have bodghi Mr. DORSEY. If he is not worth a copper, he that farm, and it is true that I hold promissory noes should not, be taxed a copper. -e would not deviate to the amount of $10,000; but I owe just this amount from the general principle, even in such a case. for the farm which I have purchased Under such 'Mr B3ARBEE said the amendment proposed by the-circumstances, I affirm to you that you ecoud not gentleman, from Miami;, [Mr. DonsvY,]an himself did conmpel me to pay any tax upon this prope,ry. But not, differ, except in the proviso which that gentleman the poor men _to whom I might rent'my farm, because proposed, in regard to the taxes upon stocks. He they might own a little personal property, or hogs could not see, as an abstract proposition, why a man and sheep, would be compelled to pay a tax upon investing his money in stocks of the State should not such property, whilst I,,the owner of the farm and pay taxes upon them as upon other property; but in reaping the benefits of teir labors, would pay ro tax regard to our stocks there is a reason for a deviation. at all Will gentlemen_look at this?, e' In 182a, tlhe State of Ohio had entered uponan im-pj Mr. BARRETT of Preble. if I understand te -%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, DECEMBER 9. gentleman, his case proves that he is worth nothing, Another objection to the thing is that it would be And, therefore, he ought not to pa any taxat all In running into the details of lei'nlation- an aror or' t-he plan, he sells his farinm for bonds to the anmount of which I think we all paitook too largely during the $10.000. If the statement went no further than this, first session of this bodv. My own opinion is, that he aught certainly to pay taxes' upon the bonds; but we should adopt the principle which shall secure: a he proceeds to purchase another farm in the same just system of taxation and leave thle details tobe county, of his neighbor across: the river in Virginia, carried out by the representatives of the people, ii promising to pay therefor a certain amount of money such mnanner as they may think b est. in 207 30, or 40 yearsa case, which, by the by, does Mr. TAYLOR called for a division of the questionl. not happen once in ten thousand transactions of the upon Mr. DoRsEY'S amenidment —the first questieo kind. But in this case, though he might not be worth being upon striking out all the words of the' second anything, the land would be held for taxes against the section except the proviso. Virginia owner, under theprovision suggested- by the After some conversation upon the point, whether if gentlenman from Medina, (MMr. HUMPHEviLLE.) But I the Committee should refuse to strike out, the -matter may have mistaken the geontleman. thus retained in the section could be afterwaidSr Mr. GILLETT rehearsed his case, and insisted that amended, his conIlusion was well taken. The CHAIRMAN decided that under the 32d rule Mri. BROWN of Atherns. I have listened with what- the matter might afterwards be amended. ever attention I could to the discussion of this sece- And the Committee refused to strike out. tien, and the pending amendments,and have came,to So both the amendments were rejected, and the the conelusion that I shall, vote against the amend- question recurred upon the adoption of the Second meants every one. I" hold this to be the true doctrine section. that it is to the lands of the State-to the-fixed and Mr. GREEN, of Ross, now offered the following taingiile property of the State-that the General As- as an amendmeit by way of substitute for the secon? semblv should Iook as the principal- source of reve section, although'it embraces matter more properly nue. I hold that it should makerno difference,what-, beloiining to the first sectiot:- he hoped it wosld n.t ever msay be the condition of the holders of the soil — be ruled out of order on that, rcount: whethetr they be solvent or insolvent-the State ofi The rule of taxation shall be equal andtoifori througlioith il Ohio has a right to look to the soil of the State as the State, and shall be levied upon such property as the a. one iof the principal means of raising the revenue to eral Assembly shall prescribe by law. But Io polltax shall pay tlie aet of the State. The debt was contracted be levied for State or county purposes. for the pureeooses of internal improvement. The bene Mrr HITCHCOCK, of CuyalIoga proposed ti fits of the construetion of which have enared to the amend the orlginal section by striking out all adft latd-hlders, by enhancing thee value of real, estate. the word "provided," and inserting the second seeC'Woueld it then be either politic or prudent for this tion of the minoity report, which he read andi is coive.tion to attempt to relieve the land of the State as follows:. — fi-or'i the burden of taxation which this debt has im- The property of the State and counties, real and personal, sdfr - - i shato be exempt from taxation, and the Legislatule shall havms epower to exempt such property of townships. clhu-clies, If I understand the language of the amendment, of schools, iterary and scientific societies, an(td iIstitutio's the gentleman from Miami, it is to this effect, that, if purely eleemosynary, as they may deem right, but such;-' a nan owns a tract of land, or a village lot, or a cas- eruptlons, except as to the property of State and cus, shall always be subject to modificaton andrepeal tle in d city such as we see every day in this city_ M hra. H. said: The bobject of this motion an s the'siamehowever valuable the land, or village lot, or castle may be, if, by kook or crook, or in good faith the wich has been'stated by other gentlemen to loae: ownler happens to be embatrassed in his circumstances, this question of exemption wholly to the Legiilatur[ the Stat- may raot cc awe to collecithe acciutngre -to -leave it altogether to their discretion to dety +3%1mie tUpbeonet h acuin repery --- -' mi oert what extent the exemption fromnl taxatioS of euponsuch prooe rty.n' Tbo pronort shall -e, carried. The diffeit he qest,ion recurs the where are you to get the this peciesof prope rty shall e caried. The di oevetie for:he publi det? Ev er sinice the creation eonc e o e between tis a the proposition of egene' of this public debt whi his now; hanging upon the man on my ight, (Mr. GRE, of Ross,) is, tat hf people of the State, we have beei accustomed to look, plaes it it the power of the Legislature o,xeniptto +Je osil 6f the State as one of the principal objects no other species of property save such as are erof tax~titon frer tie paymniot of the accruing interest braced in the terms of his proposition, whilst this We b,ve looked to this source, irrespective of what second section of the minority report leaves the might' be the condition of the owner of the soil. questica open, and allows the LegiSlature to be gOvWhere then would be the wisdom of putting this ce- erned whollv by experience and the circumrtances of tain retiance.pon a corltitnee1) by which, in many the case casos, t b tainthat we could derive from......n....cy Mr. GREEN of Ross. I feel very uniwilling to en tnas revene t w l tis somoth ing of thl ee ter into the discussion -of this qulestion at this time, it r.~ evenuhe. at allI? It is somaeth in, of t~he sameer"n esI principle which gentlemen seem tobe desirous to Ip i of thax dculty of the difficult of hearing. Every geitle ly to thg~e asesmoa of tax~es uipon cattle,nhossman must be aware that no subject can be presenlted ~ly t,~ he assesment o taxes pon catle and.~orses.for the consideration of the bo'iy of more -importan-C rhe old system was to assess them, so inuchperhead for; te osideration of the body o more importa but now it is proposed to tax themn according:to their than this, or which can be more immnediate-ly interestvAgCue. But if you are gointgto deduct from she-value iig to every citizen. It is a subject, which, in hormely ef taxable property the amount of the indebtedness phrase,comes home to the business and hsoni of every of the owner of the property, you will find a beggarly man It reaches into his pockt It involves ih excou-nt of e'mpty boxes, whelka you come to mnake up erise of the highest attribute ofsovereignty. It enters >E,Oe Zr~eA~e1]L~e - ^ into'the ccucevus of every departinent of business in dfBut there is anotlher considerationwhich leads me the state. For this reason I slhoulit finitely prefer tr oppose the proposition. It will open a very wide that the' subject should be postponed; for the pres o or for the practiee, o' frauld. All' the inggenuity of ent. I am decidedly eof the opiion, that it would be h e mind of the ccunt'y wWotld'be taxed to' the last unwise, and even daagerous, to enter into the'detailsof degree to avoid the' just paymnent of taxes; - the adjust~s'bt of thia question at th-is time. Bg,I - m.ay be it; error in this: the prevailing'/plnion may be .. I I I I I I v. - -.., -. I 39 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, DECEMIr:R 9. certainly be very gratifying to me for the subiect be re-committed, for, fromn the discussions whichfi have intervened, I am of the opinion that the report might be so modified as to meet more entirely the views cof the, Convention. Mr. WORTHINGTON suggested, that both of the reports-that of the majority and that of the minor ity, prescribe that certain classes of property shall be exempt from taxation by the Legislature,' but he did not think that either of the reports w.ent far enough with this principle of exemption. It had the policy of~ail governmenlts-,even of arbitrar ngo ineeets to exempt from taxation, a certain amount ofthe prop erty of individuals-looking especially to'the relief,of such as possess but-a small mauoint ot property; and if no others were to be exempted, hie consideredthat the relief of this class of citizens, in this respect, ought not to be overlooked. Mr. BARBEE. I am satisfied in my own mind that nothing will be gained by reecommitting this regport, in one, particular, and that has been named by the Chairman of the Standing/ Committee, La- Luo DON.] He is tenacious, and the minority are also te ndacious, upon the subject of the diference between the two reportswith reference to the principle of taxing money invested in State bonds.'] his is the main point upon which the majority avid miiiority differ. If the)subet were re-conumitted, we might, and in all probability we would,harmonize in other particulars. Some good would,.perlaps, result to the whole. But I am well satisfied' that we shall not agree uponl that one point. The question was now takeni upon the tmotioni that the committee rise, and it was rejected; but, upon a division, it was ascertained that there was not'a quorum voting. W hereupon, after some conversation in re lation thereto, On notion by Mr. CHAMBERS, the Commtltee rose, and the Chairman reported no quorum voting. A CALL OF THE CONENTION. On motion by Mr. CHAMBERS, which was agreed to, a call of the Conivention was ordered. And after several members were excused fear reasons presented, the Secretary reported the following lst of absentees, which was ordered (under the rule,) to, be entered upon'the Journal: against me. For the purpose, then, of aseertaining whether, in the opinion of the committee,.th'i subject may ie parrfitaibly discussed or loOt, at this present time, I shall move that the committee rise and report pro greys.. He then proceeded to reason further in f avor of post mponed,wet in this way, from the colsid oeration that a nupber oi tf te mAtbie had expressed their vitews rully, ta ta e ofe ilo we blereep that a ariety of propositioswere before the o i'ittee which deserved mature donsiderat uon, a nd a de liberation anid interchange ofviews which couldbnot beR Carried on profitably o ri iaccount of the present difficul ty about hearing i n the Hall. Mr. LOUDON., As one of the me mbers of the Standing Co mmittee, w hich prepared this report, I aMrc exceedit-gly desirous th at we should progress with the discussiolJ in co,mittee ofthe o t whole. As be fore re marked, we olw not have the benefit of the views of all the members of t h e Standing C omm ittee, at the time th e report was agreed uponl-some of thi e m emb ers be ing ab sent and unwell. It isheer the desire; therefore, of a portion of theumembers of the Standing Committee that the subject should be recommitted, in order to obtain a fair u-nderstandinjg of the views of all the members. But, before that re-commitment shall take place, I wou'Ild lik e to hav e the subject fully discussed h ere, sop that the comnittee might be the hb wetter prepared to re por- back the subject in such a shape as might meet the views of the whol e Con vention. Our minds having been now ful' r,wn t o the subject, I am exceedingly desirous tha'- -...:?.~cald proceed with our deliberations in comniitteha- t.h;e whole, until we shall get through With the cosideration of the principles' embraced i both the mnajority and minority reports. Mr. MHASON. I should be quite willing th o have the report t r eferred rback tothe S tanding Committee, Without proceeding any further with the subject at resent, if such a course would suit th e v iews of the ody for I believe that the C ommittee would be able to make so me valuable correctio ns in their report, if ithey ha Id it a gain u nd er c on sideration. I t h ink that it would be wellI for the Committee to rise with this understanding. But if the Committee should refuse to: r ise, thinko we might as well go on; for when wve leave this Hall, we have no opportunity for consulta tionz, nor call we carry away froin;this place much kniowledze of what we have had in our memories; therefore I think it would be better to sit here and talk over the matter until we obtain a perfect under tanditg. I should prefer, however. that the Commit tedrise, with the understanding that the matter shall be recommitted, for, I believe, as suggested by the Chairmani, (Mr. LouDON,) that they would now be en-, abled to bring3_ in a report which would Suit the views of a greater number of the members of the Conven tfoil. Mr. BARNETT of Preble, offered an apology for proposinz his substitute at this time. He intended to offer ]is proposition in the Convention. He was ate coming to his place, and was not aware, at the moment, that they were in Committee of the Whole. Therefore, he would ask leave to witldraw his substitute. ;The leave was granted, and the substitute was accordinlgI' wi thdrawn Mr. HOtRTON. The Chairman of the 0ommittee on Finance and Taxation, (Mr. LotnDoN) has mentionac the fact that some of the me~mbers of that Commtttee were not present when the report was adopted. l was-one of the absentees at that time.: I believe -that I attended all the meetings of the9Committee previous to the time of agreeing to the-~report. I mright say that, I did not agree neither -to thet report of the majority nor that of the minority, and it would Messrs..Andrews, B.14r, Blickensderfer, Case of L.cking, Clark. Collings, Ewing, Farr, Harlan, Hitchcock of Geauga, King, Lawrence, Mc'ormick, Nashi, Otis, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison,. Stunberry, Swan, SWift, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Vance of Champaign, Way' and Wilsom. And then, on' the motion of Mr. ARCHBOLl,, all further proceedings under this call were dispensed with. : Some coniversation arose here upon a point of difficulty suggested by the Chair, whether this dispensinig with further proceedings under the call of tlie Convention, dispensed also with the necessity for entering the names of the ab-entees upon the Jouri],n which several. members participated. In order to settle this-question, .Mr. SMITR -of Warren mioved that the names of the absentees be not entered -upon the Journal. Pending which, The Convention took a recess till three'o'loeck, P M. 40 MOZiDA-r. Dec. 9th, 3:,P. M.. AFTEP.N,60',V'SFMION. The pendinl, nu estioln,,, when the Conventiou took re; cIes -, be' n the Motion of Alr SmiTH,, of OHiOf.CONVENTION DEB. Warren, that the names of absentees be not entered' upon the Journal: Upon which the yeas and nays were ordered, andresulted, yeas 29, nays, 43, as follows:. - YEA.s —Messrs. Archbold, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Gook, Cutler,- Dorsey, Gilleit, Crahain, Green of Ross, Hard, Holmes, Humphreville, -Hunt, Johnson,, Jones. Kirkwood, Leadbetter. Loudon, Norris. Orton, -Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland,' Smith of Warren, Siantoa, Stickney, Struble, and Thompson of Starli-2. NAyYS-Messrs.' Barbee, Bartiet of T4ntgomerl, Barnett ol Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Carroll, Chaney, Gray, Greene of,:lefiance, Gregg, Gitoesbeck,' Hamilton, Hawkilts Henderson, Hootman, Ho.rtn, f IHunter.Larsh, Larwill., Leech Lidey, Marion, M'ason, Mitchell, Moreheail,':Morri8,. McCloudi Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Rauney, Sawyer,'Scott f f arriH son, Scott of Auglaze, Smith of Wyandot,. Stoebetis, SticweIl, Taylor, Townshendi Warren, Woodbury, Worthington, and Mr. President-43...'. On motion by Mr. LouDooN, the Convention resolved itself in to a Comrnmite baof -thep Whole, Mr. tLEADBETTr in the Chair, and resumed6 the consideration of the repor t of th e ommittee on- - FINANCE AND TKXATION..': The f AIRMAN statedd t he pending question to be upon the moti ef f Mr. HITCHC oC, of Cuyahoga, to strike out t he- proviso of th e, sercond s ection, and insert in lie l thereof the seond section of a the mi nority report. Mr. KiRKWOOD, in order to perfect the original stiol, moved, to fill the'blank in the proviso with the words ",five hundred."' - Mr. HORTON moved to fill the blank ~with the words ten thousaind."," This latter motion was-reected. p: Mr. SAWYER proposed "two thousand." Mr. H-A1,WKIN s-aid it appeared to'him that no sum eo~uld be fixed tipon which would be appro priate. A sum which would be'sufficient for o,e atistrict~would be too small for anjother. Mr. MANON would,tax the property of all'thes institutions. He would serve:them all alike. Prop erty alone should p-y the' taxeS, but he wanted ~o see IIo man taxed for property for- whi-ch he was in debted. Mr. DORSEY would vote for the largest sum, an then he illntnded to vote for striking out the proviso The very difficulty in,which the.Committee now found itself showed the, impropriety of entering ink these specalfies. These -matters shou'ld be left f( the Legi slature.- The Legislature should,have th rig-ht to exermpt ground, for s,chool and church purpo ses if it sees proper so to do; and they-ought aiso t have ~the -right- of- exempting a certain amount o property form t axation, ay three or,four or five hun Pdredl dollars, for the telief of every poor man. H. had said befbre that lhis report was quite d-efetive We needed something else for the basis of a-jus system of. taxation. ~ ~. Mr. HUM1TPHIREVILLE,held. that: all property i the State should be taxed for the support of Gover menlt, excepting fonly such property ats may~belong t the State dr county; for t0, tax'such property woul be like taking money-out of one pocket ~tnd puttin it' int~o:-another.' t2:t'with refer~ence to iproperty b~ longing t;o churches, Colleges, schools, and lierap institutions,: and library and eleemosy-nary associ; lions, why should such property be exempt? I-n vet many Cases these assoclatibns wrere formed -merely, in part, at least; for the purpose of making money. :S way of xiliustratioin, he~ remnarked that ~thevel bu'fi~ling in which ithey Vwere -siitting belonged to i~tcru association;.and would be exempted nd some o)f lfhe amendents wvhich had- been'o~fered this section. By the fact that $100.per moth was paid for the u-se of this hall, they knew:and. e-pri exnced the fact that at least one of th purposeso f, h e instit~ution in the erection of this builig W&'-: make mone. Why, then should such an institution , be exempt fromn paying taxes any more th an an di-d vidual l Why make exeIuptlos in favor of corporations and ssociated wealth? lHe might go on further and cite instances in the ties of Cincinnati anl Cleveland, -and other placesin the State, where, if the section be etined and adpted in its present Ntshape, property to an immenseamount w.ould be exrne lempted from taxation for State and County purposes. etHaIn the county this amount wouid be, perhaps, tri,e, fling ib most'cases, bit still it would'b e a Violtion Ha f p riie. n HecQuld see no reason why a coippany ww dg in Cincinnati shohld be exempted frompaying ta aupon property to the value of $10,00, wile a siminlak company in the village of Medina would be ex' i nA empt from paying their tax upoin property only to the .in a, a rvalue of two or' three -thousand d~lars. T T fonIl rule which would work equally would be'o ta ail according' to the value of their property; any ther rule would work injustice and oppression0 He was not disposed to say that' becuse an i'ndi vidual blo1nged to any of these associations therefore he should be excused, according to the amount of his interest therein,- from bearinrg the burden of State and n:county taxes. If they wereto lgislate in the ConstiM tution at all upon this subject, he would say,'"let us make things equal." His plan, however, was to leave the matter open entirely to the discretion of futue legislation.: Tere had not yet been a single amendment proposed touth ing-any point of the difficilty. MHe might proceed to greater leigth, but he suppost ed the few remarks he a made; would be suffclient to call down upon his headi as plentiful a shate of, the prae anatemas/from those associations. as' he could well dbear. But he must vote'upon this, as upon'all other questions, exactly according to te dictation of the ir sense of duty and conscience which governed him. Mr. LARWILL was not disposed to exempt an property from taxation, except grave-yards and church property. He should vote for filliag the blank with the smallest Sum..'. Mr HORTON was in favor of the amendment o~ the gentleman from Cuvah-oga an d at the ropertime t e cie o he would be disposed to carry,out the idea suggest e in the propositio.n ofthe gentleman from Ross. (r. , - GE.) He was' in favor of the amendment of the 0 gentleman from Cuya4hoga for various reasons.,It hf gave to the Legislatiire a discretion either to exempt " a certain description of property or not, as tie cie might require. Ie was abellever inthe dtne h in forming the Constitution of the State, weshould not t go into specia legislation, but that we hould give s power to Legislatures to make certain exemptiensand n p irohibitions wherever and whenlever they ay be re -quired.; mo It had heretofore been the policy of the State -to xLid empt certain descriptions of property from all taxes; ig such as school-houses andburying-grounds..And he er-ec- believed this was still in accordance with the felings ry of the people of the State of Ohio; and he was willing a- for ~the continuance of tha policy.'. ry He was surprised to- hear the gentleman from Medior na (Mr..HumR EvILIL,) assert that this would work . injury to the great mass(of the community. The. inry ju.jrye, if any, would fall upon the cities and small towns,ba,and not upon thepeople generally. fTheire were burytea ing-grounds about the.city of Cincinnati which were to worth four or fivetimes as much as the sum likely to ID: CD... —'''']'' I' [ I --' [ l~~~-.~ -~ ~ ~ ~~~I I _ li l~ t, T -D' 0 0 0 j' Ir il i.... CI, C 0' CD~ CD~~~~ ~~ 0'~~~~~ ~~~ 0 ~~~ 0~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ 00 ~~~ ~~0 ~~~ ~C :g "-D"C 0~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~U 0; 0 -CD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ g~~11 CNETI0 D@AE-M~Y DeEME 9. 4 the Convention, that if they undertook to set up adiscretion of the Legislature, with respect to the principle which would sell out the churches of the question as to what description of property should be State, they would raise up a more formidable opposi-, exempted and what brought within the province f tion to law, than h-ad ever yet been witnessed in the taxation. In his opinion' there could not be leftwith the State. Legislature any more dangerous power than this-a No man could charge him with a superstitious Ad- discretion, the exercise of whieh was morebeset with herence to religion. lie was considered by:thosewho temptations and tendencies to corruption. IntereSte knew him, to be rather heterodox But, for one, he parties would be continually besetting the Legislature was unwilling to fix up a clause in the organic law of toe withdraw certain property from taxation, and the the State, under which the tax-gatherer might proceed -deeper the interest the more intense would be the to sell out the churches and the bonesof ouriancestors! feelig, and the stronger the effot; and the success If such a step was ever to be taken here, it should be of one such application would be but as the entering taken without his concurrence. Such a provision was wedge for the success of other applications of equal not'inerely unnecessary. It was absolutely perni-e merit. He could not well conceive of anything beteious. - th.ter calculated to lead to those corruting ifluences : which are most apt to get round legisative bodies inm But there was a sort of proclivit n e part of this country. gentlemen to get too much into the con-stitution; and thls discussion was an example of it; and he consid- He did not know but he would be consldered a ered those *were best employed who set themselves to perfect heretic i constitution making. The gentlekeep out this excess of propositions. But where was man from Monroe had intimated that the great duty ke~ep ou m sexes of. propvositons,r But where was,.~,.;.'... '..' -.... ~.. ~ el~~o a member here was to ~set'hramself to work tox'ee the object where was the necessity for this provisions f a member here as to set himself to work to kee. A hundred and ten thousand dollars annually would Yeverything he could out of the Constitution. If thi. pay all the expenses of-the State- government;..-were really said in earnest, he would think it oueht pay all the, expen~ses- -ofrhe State.government. ~: ~,.,,~',, it.~;;': -to occur.to th-at. gente,man, that, iestead -of -siifn was true as gentlemen would say we raise an annual to occur to that.gentlan, that instead of stng revenue of three milioiis'but this includeddivers oth here at the expense of the- State, it would be theer sources of expense and, amongst the rest the reve- course of duty for him to be making tracks towards nue raised on account of the public debt, which was home; for all we would have to do, acting upon this gradually diminishing, and which he trusted the pro- advice, would be to adopt the old Constitution, as pertly of State would at last pay off. There was no good enough, or pass a resolution leaving everythi. ng nec,ssity for fixing up a system of taxation a ri- to the discretion and management of he gislature, ou ad oppressive as that which is enforce which we could do to-morrow, and be ready to start oreus ~a'nndoppress-ive as' tar. ~w, hc! i.s -enforecda toye wn... emperor of Russia. It should be enbered that if home the next day. we had iothing hanging over us but the expenses of- He looked upon our whole duty here, as naturally the. State government, our necessityforrevenue would divided into two branches; the declaration of certain be' to the last degree inconsiderable. It wastrue that fundamental principles, which lie at the foundation the effects of our formier errors were upon us; but he of government; and prescribing the details necessa saw no occasion for fixing, such a rigorous system of to carry out those principles. He understood that it taxation as gentlemen seemed to be about to perpe- was the business of this Convention to make laws, trate. Ou the contrary, he would say: Let us pay off He meant here by the word "laws," just what it meant our debt; and then let those who will, contrivetofilch in every case. He meant a rule of action by an excess of revenue from the hard hand of the vir- Iwhich something is commanded to be done, or sometuious and pious yeomanry of the country. I will thing prohibited. He did not suppose that this Conhave no hand in it. A cheap, rugal goverbnment is enton a een se e, merelyto read hils the best; and that is all we want. the Legislature, or merely to recommend propositions .He was opposed to any law for the taxation f for the General Assembly to carry out. For if suchl He was opposed to any-,law-for the taxation of'. , strictl..,:.....: m neighbor howere the object of all the propositins which had charity,'striety ~considered. If my n,ie eggeo genhemeno may be religiously inelined, gives $500 for the estab t - B ed here h d en to le.. lishment of a church, andn is taxed upon that -mon them out, and not waste paper up ton them. t ree hilien of a chr,.ndb is taxied.v a tamoit, are certain great principles which lie at the foundation while I, who, may be less piously inclined., give nothmg and consequently have no taxes of that kind to. of free government, and the people of Ohio h ad sen t ragi, ant consequently have —no'faxes o that. kindto.. ,.,...:..... ~': ini es an -d they had -pr-o ay, the practical effect certainly is ta e us t hheretodeclare etheose pricles; and they adproIevies me:prae tax ponecharityn:atis marme ltam vided that afterwards'hey themselves willI put their Fe wes adirect tax upon charity a enevene. own seal of aroal uon them. This was the way Mr. RANNEY would suggest to the Chairman of which our people had determined to take in makingd the Standing Committee, (Mr. LOUDON,) whether their fundamental laws. $1 000, would not be entirely inadequate. That gen- tleinan proposed to exempt School houses and coQn- No people should delegate Power which they could .mon burying grounds, an $1,0,0, would not m-l,exercise themselves. It s a fact, as asserted by the mein buryi n g groans.n ~ul ou not, nary... ~~. 11 Y, z~~.. entleman'from Medietna {,Mr.,HmuPHEIF- tha j the, begin to exenmpt even the land uponwhich ay gentlem an (Mr. HUMP iLL) th the s h stn n ts. If.. S - oc..an people have always delegated too much power. Herei school hou ses stand in t If t he obj we have already proceeded so far s to determne _....:~'_.. we nave rareany~~~~~~p proceeded so far~as'to;deermine to, to, exempt school houses and urying places, hee ewouldxs se oiel nuso manty bords. Forainsthefislcurtail the extent of those delegated powers We ousysmsomnwords. For in the first hv deter trinned to take certain elections from the_Ie place, the State has to support the schools, and then gatet ie to t he p ele.. We hede ,. 2....'_ ~gretarajre and save them to the peepb... We have. de,,to tax the school houses would, be but to take money trie X withe to the Legila tue hae powout f one hn a.d put i inote other; han ahen, ttO create monopolies; and still he was Satisfied th ate in the o c it wa a o upon t s there was an abundance of po wer besides these, noof reigion sorstron. ine inds of th people, to exercised by that body waich o ugf to be withdrawn. t a grave yard;:: he question of exempting church He was not one ofl those whohooked to the Legslaproperty need not be mingled with Ethe question of -tHe was othe of soe wo safety to thap iness the exemption of school houses and grave -yards; for frthe peop te. The seemed to have beend a st..rife all must be educated, and at last die and be buredle in the cou'ntry as well as in the city. -' N 0; u- among'stgentlemen here, as to who could state in the He did not concu in the sentimen that everhing clearest and strongest terms that ths. oAdy was here should be left open to an undefined and'undefinabl} lmerely to -command or to request hegislate to do l OH10,,CONVENT-I!,Oll\l D.EBATES I Ml OitA y, I)"F.'.C'EMBER. 43" 44 OHIO CONVENTION D,EBATE'S — TUESDAY, DECEMBER 10. this or that. If this were their busiuess, he would repeat that they -had better go home at once. But he did not so understand his duty here, nor did he thinklt the delegates to -tiis con venltion need be so very modest. After se anefaretler informal discussion, the committee rose, and reported progreQss.. And ~hen, on motion, the Convention adjourned. -The proposition of thegentlemal from Columbiana (Mr. GREGG,oo) is to exempt school houses, burying grounds,. and the ground upon which religious'difes are con structed, and all- the edifices thereon, whatever m be their amount or extent, forever from taxation. I could not concur in such a propositionl, however badly some gentlemen might construe suuc!h an opinion. H was aware that a proposition to tax churches and the ground upon which those sacred edifices are situated would strike most persons with astonishment and aversion. We are all of us controlled more or less, by certain preconceived notions; and in atpproaching this. question, these preonceived notions of the rights and intere ts of the Churches natur ally star up against what would otherwise be our views upon the subject, One part of maink.nd. has succeeded ii making the rest believe that the objects with which they are identified should be exempted irorn the burden of society-yea, they should everreceive tile particularx : fostering:care of the Goverhnment. They have im pressed upon us in early life these eattments s S trongly, that they have now become a second nature to us, so thatwe tread with less frm s tep Wher we approach, as muembers of the Conlvenitioi, -questions connected with religious inst""uious. And if the amendment of'the gentlemanl- fro'lmColumbiana, (Mr. GR.EGG,) prevails, it is not because the amendmeiit in itself is, right, but because weare afraid to act in a Tmatter where Dur preiudices: so strongly: control us. I s upposepthe gentleman froin Coluiab;iana will ask in the embelishment of the temples of AGd? Are' you, by t axation ae, goitng to diouat e r eligious n -or. ality and those deep feelings of piro~p;.'et,y whieh lie- .at [the' foundation. of' all govrernment?" I have no..: doubt sir, that jus t such natheihgos wmil l beic ma de, and othat apPeals upon the. subjectof relgion e and u morality w ill c d ready al lies it ou r own pru dices. T all such appeals t'the r o but one reply, atno that is, that inv the mdoharget ofmy'ut?esr aso a wubl c man,c t all mfeeingh es o f thatn kindf us givewavs to bthe' shtern demands o f prlinjciple; and when calle d pob toheno vteon thate Const itution I do La't ask myself w ihat ne, aterests I should prer, what feelings hould s asa les i o th ecii upon all questions of this ki~~~~~~~nd,s gnovrnlt hisfin votes alsofrligine cnots'e'itnmakesra'nydifforonce' tall regardt s, and what objects i shou tld eskd pp e ci ally haos ~~~~~~~~~~~~~Mr., aEMll' feelire pngaqesin of somc netedhi eanwbth~er iii' a cher pew''otin ste; but I awo guide d by the prin ciplea of equald r ghts'e - all should be subjected to eqanl b wrt hens. ":o' Lets us, pMr. eC hairman, elokia ittle c1lser to this: matter. Religion, we all aleit t e he, high objects of: society —we ail admit~ it to be the grfek$1 gro und-work of both pub lic and private moralityf I :trust: howeiver you will bet equally ready to admit that therel re other eq aually high ainterests-equaly as high objects —- equally asbhigh lursuits which coh eacon-s/ sidering the n atureof our Gooternment, more th0!se% within the range of Gox,ermnl~ent. AudiT can not sHe with whatpropriety, one of these objects is singlea 6u;t as thie favored child of pegislation; ehy ii toreaioty eIeruptionfro m the burthen of society,'wh,i eahe otoiertsaret taxed. What is this else-but taxing all others fme the support of i? Every dollars wh ichis o withdrawn by ''exemption trnof Gny: k ind hasto be made ulp br othersae is so far a, tax'. Nor can I see tha t'religiol i:partit uelarly injuredoby subjectin gv it to the common burthe,s f soclety; much less can i see how Caxing a costly edifices, as a rule, has anything at all} t o do w tth the Subject of religion. I earlnot see hdw'it makes'any differecee: as to the kind oflproEpertyd in which a witizbn may bhveinvested his metns —ether ill a cha rch pes'oiri the stocks of a railroad,'so it be property, whose adrant~ages, privileges and pleasumres he, and he: only, 6n, joys; said tiii whoseienljoymefit he' is guranti-ed antiro SIXTIETH DAY. TUESDAY, DEC. 10, 1850. 9 o'clock, A. M. The!Conventionk met, pursuant to -adjournment. Prayer by the Rev. Dr. BROOK. Mr. LARWILL presented a petition from John C. Taylor and forty-six others, citizens of Wayne county, asking that a provision be inserted in the new Consti tution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any. law authorizing the sale of intoxicating drinks. Mr. STILWELL, a petition from William P. Sage' and one hundred and fifteen others,'citizens of Must-' kingum county, on the same subject. am s b Mr. GILLET presented a petition from Robert Reed and forty others, citizens of Scioto county, on the same subject. ~ e Said petitions were severally referred to the Select Committee on the subject of Ardent Spirits. On Inotion df Mr. L(JUDQ0N, the Con:ention resolved' itself into a Coommnittee of the Wholeon i the orders of day, Mr. LEADBETTER in the Chair.' The question being on the amendment of Mr. GREGG to the proviso in the second section, to strike out of the third and fourthlines, the words "not exceeding in i value the sum of - dollars," and' to insert "espe cially devoted to such purposes," -: Mr. REEMELIN moved to amend by substituting the word, "exclusively," for the- word especially, which was accepted by the mover. d: Mr. LOUDION, was in some doubt whether he could consistently vote for the, amendment of the gentlemnan from Columbiana, (Mr. GREGG.) He could readily see how it might be productive of -great practical abuse and loss to the State, and great inequality and.injustice to individuals. "It was evident that if it should prevail, it would place it in the power of wealthy corporations to possess and hold large amounts of valuable property, and to keep thean forever exemptfrom taxation. What would such a church corporation have todo; butto possess'itself of a quarter or a half township of land, and to erect a church upon one corner of it. If there is to be no limit to the practice, the, whole territory of the State will soon be taken up with church lots and cemeteries, to the loss of the rev-t e rue and the injury of every other public and private interest. Mr. MANON was willing to go for the exemption of school houses, and the lots upon which they stand and burying grounds; but he should vote against extending the exemption any further. A church might, under the proposed amendment, cover halfthe territory of a township with its privileged Claims, by the mere,, act of putting up a meeting house. H4e should go against leaving the door open for any such abuse. Hil v ie should also give his ote against any plani of taxation'that should oblige a,manto paytaxes upon what he does not own, or upo n his des, and should upon all questions of this kind, so govern his votes as best to secure that object. Mr. RETMELIN desired upon a question of so much impo.rtance to vote understandingly.'He wanted to consider the whole principle presented in, the amendment, both in its features and in its probable effects. I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-'TUEsDAY, DcEm,BPR. 10. * 45 tected by government. No good citizen will ask to be I freely and openly avow that I am in favor of the exempted in this wise. What difference does it maketo doctrine avowed by Mr. Brough, in a report made by the government whether it is the blacksmith's hammer him as Auditor of the State, and subsequently es* or the proceeds of the blacksmiths,industry or wheth- bodied in a bill brought before the General Asseib y, er it be the painters pencil, exhibitingm his labors in the that all wealth, every species of property that affords embellishment of churches-it'is labor that produced to man either comfort, revenue, pleasure, or the means the property, equally protected, it should be equally of gratifying his pride, whether it be a fine pew in taxed. Why shouid we discrimiiate in favor of the a church, or a fine education for his children, whether carpet weaver's shuttle that makes a carpet for a' he please to hang his property upon the' back of his splendid church, against the farmer's plow that tills wife in jewelry and fine clothes, whether he loves to our' soil and gives our fanmilies their daily bread? support a fine horse and carriage, orlovesto dwell in What difference is it whether the carpente,r's industry a splendid house-no matter what it may be, whatproduced the hovel for the beggar or the' dwelling for ever constitutes his wealth, that should be the meathe artisan; or whether the same mechanic, assisted by sure of his taxation, exacted of all equally alike. the architect, rears a splendid edifice? What' differ-'To make myself understood upon this particular ence whether he build a fine steamboat or a fine question, let me illustrate' it by stating two cases that church?-what difference whether he works upon the no doubt happened the day before yesterday:' generally useful parts of his trade, or in fitting out a On last Sunday morning one of the wealthiest citisplendidpulpit, in which some eloquent pulpit orator zensof this city leaving his elegant- mansion, either may display his powers? It is industry in every alone or attended by his family, rolled in his carriage case-it is the product of labor in eyery instance. to church. As he approached the splendid edifice of And taxation is just so much a drawback in one case the congregation of which he is a member his pride as in the other, and we would be compelled to admit was elated., as his eye rested upon the, to'weng spie that taxation was-wrong- that taxation was an error, which rose high above the dwellings, looking down or else we must give up discriminating in favor of one upon the rest of mankind. The architectural beauty species of labor against the proceeds of labor in an- perhaps in imitation of some DI)oric Temple or some other shape.' Gothic structure, made him feel elated that he was a What is taxation, sir? Tt is the compulsory contra- member of a society able to build such a church. oAs bution of each citizen, accordiLgn'to his meais to the he opened the door, he felt that he need not be in a support of the government under whiche lives The hurry-, for he had al,rea-y secured a right to a rich vel suport of the government unider-wihich,he lives. The,_..'.,. vet cushioned pew, a'~,in~e ~;no'aou-bt t.hat Ihe hadt mode of taxation proposed in the report and not con- vet cushioned pew, ic e t no doubt that he ha troverted by any is that the aggregate property of the taken good care that the outer man should not sutffer yr y to~ t agregat property oimhe......'.. State should be t eas from which the tax ou while he went to take care of the spirit within him. State shouId be the mieans from which the tax should _. ~ ~-~~~~ ~~~~~~ in:- H- ~......'-.,:;-_:- e listened-to the eloquent oration of a'hxg, hly gUe be collected; and the amount in the hands of each in- He listened to the elouet oration of a igly gifted ~'' ~ ~ ~'' ~~~~~and ililgy salaried Minister of the eongregation, dividual,should be the measure by which the amount, and highly salaried Minister of the cngregion he is called upon to contribute, should be measured'The hight of the church, its walls being tastefully he is called, upon to contrbute, should be measured..__:._;;........: As you exempt one species of property you increase painted, the richly decked pulpit, the hrillimat can the burthens upon the remainder and in reality all delebras, the studied'sermon, each and all contr.buted ~,. - - ~, ~.. /,..?,I to make him feel exceedingly comfortable in Ithus ao exemptions have tended only to the complication of t k him feel exceedingly comfortable i thus ado' - ~,~ring~ the "I'wly jesus. our tax laws, and to make them bear unequally and rig the lowly Jesus improperly. The aggregate wealth of thee State of At the same hour, or most likely a little earlier,in the Ohio is in the hands of its people-the tax is paid by country portion of H-amilton, or csome other coulnty, the labor of the people of Ohio; the proceeds of that la- you could perhaps see a lightly clad poor girl leaving bor is either coilverted into personal property or real the humble roof of her parents on horsehack. We will estate; is the evidence-the thing upon which the tax follow her some three or four miles to one of our coutn is levied.:I. am inclined to the opinion that if the try meeting hlouses. She rides up to the feuce to tie her people of Ohio will examine the'subject, they will horse,,for generally there is not even a post supplied find that those who tell them that this species of for that purpose. The meeting house is ia og cabin, not property is more holy than le rest or that that spe- even weather-boarded outside, scantily supplied with cies of property needs exemption from taxation,are but windows and they not all supplied with glass. Ai deceiving them upon the subject; for who pays the she opens the door, you can see within a few wooden taxes at last but the men-the laboring men of Ohio? benches; a pulpit made of a few rough boards nailed It is not a question of the amount of taxation, but as together. The inside of the mneeting house may not to its being properly equalized! even be plastered. All round that poor girl is dis$ I am fully aware, Mr. Chairman, that in claiming comfort to the body, but within her lives that true spi upon the subject of taxation, these great principles of it of religion that is frightened at no obstale, that equality upon which I have always acted, I may call finds its God in the lowliest dwelling as well as in the up those deep-seated prejudices to which I have ad- magnifient palae. verted at the commencement of my remarks. I am Sir, the exemption of that rich man's churheis atax, aware that it is an easy matter to set a mark upon a upo n that poor girl's iindustry! The tax tliat should man and pervert his remarks-to make him, when he have been levied and collected from that splendid ed is a favorer of equal taxation, an enemy to religion ifice has to be made up by the laboring men and, wo, and to morality, while nothing may really be, utirther- men of Ohio, who congregate ini just such meeting from his heart. The phantom of' French'infidelity houses as these throughout many parts of- the Sate. may be reared up within these'halls, and be made to One tenth of the people of Ohi6; congregate in meeting stalk through them, not for the purpose' of reminding houses that are exceedingly costly, while nine-tenths us'of these. great principles of equality and justice, congregate in the meeting houses last described: till: but for the purpose of fr,ghtening usafrom a fair and the- niie-tenths are taxed to suppor the other- o'ne candid consideration of thie subject. The "raw head" tenth in their pride. A serious effort will be mBade'to and "bloody bones" of "Danton and Robespierre" make the nine-tenths believe that to tax churCh pro will be conjured up to our imagination to prevecn't that pwert~' the same as other property isla~n injury to them; cool and steady gaze which is determined to get at the awhile ifthey will for.a moment Consider thie subject, bottom of this question. Be it so. I trust th'at I am they rill find that'it is a benefit to them.: understood, and ibe the consequences what they may; this is not an over-wrought petur,e. The meeting ATES'-TUEsDAY, DECEMBER 1O. ,,to be correct. In regard to the exemptions in tle last part of the amendment, it left thle extents and, the amiounts to be fixed by the General Assembly. Etie wished in the former part to mahe some specifiea. tions, because if general words only are employe&d the matter is less open to abuse. At present, ith whole matter is left in the hands of the General As sembly, and he thought abuses had been suffered to creep in. For instance, the property of all the colleges of theState is exemiptfrom taxatio:. 2ow many of these institutions own' lands to a very great, nextent, from'Which a large revenue is derived, He would tax all such wealthy institutionS, He' did; ot know ais the sumof two thousand dollars w'as large eno,ugh;,,and the amount of land specified might seem too'smnall in some cases, and too large in.others; but',fsome amount should be fixed, d e could h see no reasoh why above that amount they should - be, taxed. IaMr. MITCHELL said he should e obliged to vote phvupon theproposition now before the Oommittee, wi., i u w hi the gentleman from' HIamilton, (Mr. RltEMxLL,,) ht; l n'he felt it his duty to' say, that he did not do so upon,. n a t d n a tf the principle avowed by that gentleman.' He'never had, and he never coulg envy that genitleman in,the, zest with which he attackedall i'the institutions of. r eligion, i w henever they rcame in h is way. Hie could not agree with, t:hat gentleman in his'"ideas of- demo-, racy, nir,assentt to e hpropsition thiat it is a distinctiv[ feature 6hai-acttrizing rdemocracy orthe IDeno:' cratic party, tkatbmyak'e's' iddiscri minate and feros. attacks upon relie,on and'ei i0us sentim6.nt~s;, I all.. times and upon all: occasionis. Mr. REEMEE LIN desired the geqntleman from Knox' [M~r. MiTdaHLL] to designate when and where he had: beene-'guilty of an'attack u po n religioi,. He'!eniei' that, hae'h everabeen intenton ally guittyof'any such Mr. MITCHEL:L said he!tad'to6'ldng been ace': tomed to the Vocabulary pciar to'tie:.stripe of notions' held by the geftlernan from'!ahilton;to be u'n-:/. der any mistake'upol the subject. Weih,e'tS'of the' opinions,' arnd belief' of Christians bei-ig a rere. orejudice, Vand,na,rr0Wness of mind aiandprec'ileeive4 aofions', aand errors: (an,-,igo.ry; it is easy, eia6ugh4to, underistand what:] -ewans.t' hI:c understand lvhe, is,at.' Sentimenets like throse a~dvanced' by the genmtle<; .an ought not to be tmafd i n silence by'~/fi American' assembtl'y, nor borne w'thout rebuke.' gTh'y'e the ;entimen-ts df the wo{st'days, the days of Z'fi per;ecution, and ouglt to h, ve no place ]ee,,&d:offiing o recommnend them to our fyvor~able 6 sei atii; or even'our forbearance.'''''' - , If there is anything t{hat gives dign',ty and respect o our situation as representatives of the wisdom and iatfi'tism of a free people, it; is, that we recognize in il things our religious acecountability, and sfubscribe ver,to the truth of the' great pioincip'les of relgiiom - ~he notions of the gentleman from Hamilton, and, ome other —gentlemen- here, are,. of anoh.er character. rheir fun-dmental principle:-aear s:be, that reigionsis'to. be ~perse~cutd,~ia,-.p~nt d'own, and thiat t~tie irs~t duty Of a,'teople in the estai0!i~ment of a".....m ~' governiment Is to den t~heir' aeountabilty tong _~d ?mls -is the'doctrine in suzbstance,,howvere cone~eci~le nder a form of wokds, th'ai;the' genitleman~i~s'so:ready5 obroaech on all occassions, -an,d to drag- into~ all subzicts'of discns~sion. In' the ea~rl~y hiStoi;:gof the gov-' rnment of this'country, it seem~ed to''be?-afact admit, ed ~that the purityr'and4delefh~ of reli'gious' Sentiments reld4 and'reeogn~ized by,-t{eifffounde~rd; had give-n to our. .o4ernments' teir chief: s'trenkth afid pnrlty:.f (LetterS: y, however, Ufider t{he-influenee 0f' sent~inment;s sicti:as. ,ad been: broacehed -bY'these gentlem'en,'{he tendenicy: ,And now the s6l1emn Sabbath..ca'e, We gathered in the wood a nd lifted up our he a rts in prayer, To God,the onlc good, w Our temples then w ere'rearth andstiky; Nonle elher did we know' In'the days t hen we weie'pioneers, Fifty'years ago.. aTo resume theou brieflw,I. think thatyr.leaving the' teoion sta nd, as reported h strikin g out tr.e whole pro viso, wil l make the matctr, in my humble opinion, right. Allproper ty wi ll oth6n be sugboeet t o'ntraetion. neuleeni the assessnet I e n have to e t u wnif im, and th e, vauationi jast.' i do not know bu h t wha t I would favor a proviso permitting ther GenerBal Ass e m bly to prpvide,e by law that in such cases, where the tax of aHny on individ ute for personal propad rty,icand where sfuh p er son has o rtemal ntntate,'doe s not aimount to a'ertain fixuedt .maximum,' say fifnty Ctsl or,one dollar, that then, such:' ta shall n o t b e,, forcibly collected. I do not etx press a edeidedopinion wipon this matt er, bUt ifI would -exempt'at all., I'vould do so, in favor of -poor'men. hMr. GsREGG. In offering my aen&ment, it was with a.view to extend' the' sSame rule to all r'e/igious denominatiofns in all ec n oeplaces. I oe ace anatrei of land would be,woith two-or' three dollars, while in another it would be wor th two- or' th reen- hundred'or two or three,thousand and in _,this city, as hggh asp 20s000,or "30, 000 dol ars.i' Again, if you fil the blnk'with $-2,o000 your syster m oftaxationwill ogeraze i unequially eve n wm the same t own, and whie itilLtax the PresbI,rian or, Methodist who. nmavy. have'erect-ed' a g od substalhHia w churchl i n a c onvenfent par t of the' I town, the Quaker or Baptist who may notgbe so well t situated in - worldly affairsr,'will go Ifree. Ther is t therefor e a dificulty in fixingupon a ny amoint-and tat if on e denomination is permitted to worship free from t taxation, all sh ould h ave, th e sam e privelge'tend edto them. - HUMP was,' -'.'.'',: I ~3Mr.: HUMPHRE VILLE wa s not pled with:any \ of the Prepositios that ad been laid beo re t he C,op enl- wrih the hittee. He thought, s ome went too fa r. Were too ex-ar cl-usive, and ex c ud too such while on tohe O the e her a hardsomewere'too ltbkitenandnnarrow. He did not s fthfink any of them exactl y in acordance wi th t he s views either of a nmajority of the w convention or of ethe t commiunity at large. fle had drawn up an amend- n meant which at a proper time he'propased to' o ffer -fo - consideration. It speaks his own- views, and he tl thoe ght erhaps, if n,o t coneurred in., in alt its detailsf,' i t might serve as a basiysw upon which to harmo nizethe a views of o thers.- He woul readit fort heinformation n''e of the committe. Sec. 2. Srike out, all' after the word "Provided'" s,' anrd insert: - --:' "The property of the state, of'counties, townships, citie.s lJ and'townsheld ad used-as public" property and also pub- ~fi lic rsh-ool houses, academies, colleges and. tmiversities and, o; the [aends on whfcl they-stand.- and public burying grnds ald higtiways, shall be exempt from ta'ation:; and, the.Gene-. ral Afemi bly may exerndt from taxation the prolperty'ofu churches., literary societies,and institutions p,i,ety-eiemosy, tc nary, not,excecding two acres in extent, and t:wO thousand- je dollars in altie; also the kitchen and household furniture e of families, arid the tools, and implements oflaborers m e. .chamlos anld agriculturists- not exceeding tWO hundred dollarq" lte fn' vle? and the jpersonal property (ff'any W'hose; W'h)e a~./; ~os~nt sna~ no~ exceed onle hundredndolasts'i -'r m ge He was,awre t h'edetails aight nod suit the'~y views ol zal,.but't~hei,ineiple,'embodied,' he: ~hought h~ OHIO CO-ENTION DEBATE S-TuEso,DAT, DEcEMB.E 10. had been the other way. He,hoped, however, tosee a change in our day. Me hoped that the day was nrot farn distant when the truth would again be triumphant and religion be-recognized as the only sure folundation of safety to society and consequently Government. Not, sir, that he would have it patronized and supported by government, but tolerated, let alone. ~ie said he should -be obliged to vote against the amendmentof the gentleman from Columbiana, because he deemed it impracticable in its application. Heo thought it might be found to operate unqquall; and unjustly upon the very classes of our people which it professed to favor. He thought the very object for w.hich governments are instituted is to give encour- i agement to these very pursuits which gentlemen seem anxiaus to hedge in and restrict. The progress of: learning is for the good of the State and is important to its perpetuity. Morality is just as essential.i Religion is the great motive to upright conduct, which constitutes the chief safe-guard to the State, and is the legitimate result of both the others. The idea of separating learning and morality from government, is a mere figment of the brains of those who would erect the structure of the State, without first laying its foundra.tionl. aThe idea of the gentleman fromBrown seems to be,e that education, to a certain extent, is well enough, but beyond that, it is wrong; it becomes a mere-appendage to aristocratic pretensions, or is employed for purposes of speculation and gain. He did not believe it. He did not believe that there was any such thing as too much education. He believed learning to b good, and he did not care how much we have of it, and as soon as we are ready tocry down education, anid disparage learning, we are ready to make the retrogade movement, and go back to the ages of barbarisnm. He believed that learning: would distinguish the na tion that gives it encouragement. By it we shall attain to a higher fame and nobler reputation than can ever be gained by feats of arms, or by the eiolumrents and aceumulations of the most boundless commerce, internal and external, domestic or foreign. It is encouraged by all good governments, as much as possible, and several of the States in this Union have given a nbble testimony of the value they place upon the means of education. He intended to vote so as to give his aid to every measure consistent with justice calculated,to advance the cause of education, moi tty and true religion. For this purpose he was averable to the amiendment read by the gentleman from Medina [Mr. HuIiriREVILLE]l... Mr. REEME'LIN, could not allow theremarks of the gentleman from K-nox, (Mr. MITCHELL) to pass, without raising his voice in denial of the charges whichi that -gentleman-saw fit-tb make against him. He asked that gentleman to lo6ok back,over his whole course, both in this Convention and elsewhere, and point out a single idea, thateven squints towards an attackupon religion or otrality. He found, in the remarks of that gentleman the very proof-the testimony in point to prove the words he had uttered, and the remrks he had made, in regard to the narrowing effect of e arlyv educatin upon the minds of m en, preventing thea from seeing btue truth, even wher e it is clear and plain as the nlohday sun., ain For his apar~, he Was Unable t6 see how it wras possible for the' geutleman from Knoxr so:to construe his rema~rks, as ~to ~see in, them. an attack'upon mnoralit or religion. He knew it'w.as easy to charge a man iwt~h being inl infidel or an atheist, and:to Elase the ery of "mad'dog;" aaidset the whole community a fter i-im. ~ The:genrmen from Knox is deep in- a-theologi~cai;,airgumcut, but; his mind runs in~ a narrow chann'd. "He is one of those who,:under a conscinions sens of duty, would burn WitChes!''e -would denouncee with a best, Robeasie rre, Daiton, the French Revolutioi; and all the great reformers: of the -world, would. if they lived now, receive.thegentleman's oppriem dis mepitnhets. vHis ranw he.'ad and ploody ibones ha ve h lost tMheirM charnt, and the worldwill no longerl be. emuhpe ied by force to c arya th is or that favorite cirned. thep at gentleman ha lived i nn ill th time of Tom JhielArson probably hewould have hid his Bible. Now'however, he is a Ztisciple of Tom Jefferson, and yet is in' favor of anv thing ttbut freedo m and eq ality bon the subiet of religi,n.. Tahomas Jefferson' said to the world, that tlhe trie doctrine wast to stand aside, and let religion take care iof itselfr Knt to intermingle: with the jarring stcsl but to giveequal protection to-all,by allwing ie of conscience to everv one. This is the greaf featui; of American Law;.it is What ~makes our countery the asylumof the oppressed thro hou gho ut the world mand whi ch ha s and wi ensure I our freedom on religious subjects for all c o ming time., T'he gentleman, democrat as he claims to b does not seem to head the great principle laid-down by-v r. 'Jefferson} whenhe m oved to abolish te protect'on 'thrown around the church of Virginia. So far as rea ligion is concerned, Mr..Jefferson desired to itave t to God, and to men's consciences. Has it been ani worse for this:? No; not for one moment. He coula say'from experience that it was no, worse. He had lived in countries where religion is fe,s-tared, by lais and where men, are forced, %!hether they willor nol, to support a public worship not congenial/ to their feelings. He haid seen all the goo'gra tity"wo~dfy He,~d while you can ~oniy~reope~sfe thde grand mass? off an agrhiuturai distor~t by? ~x:~ing ch:ehes Xding on. ly a few' hundred don'tS am Iti? be told th': 'I a~m ah'infidels?-': ~ He ~as so rry.t~o sa~y t~hese? things of the.gen-tieman } fromX Knobx. Hle had lon'/g knownf h'i,'::h.1~ K age&tle I 47 48'OHIO GCONVEN'IONN DEBATES —TUESDAY, DECEMBER 10. man, in maby ot-heM. rbspects, fully up -to the great not impossi-le, to fix upn any plau not sueect to the rorems of othe age, and e felt it hisduty, ol learing same ohjection. 'sucli charges fro hlm, to, tise anid throw off the MAr DORSEY said, the'matter now befo~re theiom impctation. He did tnot (lesire that h eischi~ldre mitte was of so much impo tance, that he h ohar sould bae told thal ne thepictr:father hu b end attacked iie on theman upone the fsmti ait f,pithusg 1thoey wotill kno that. t isa.a lie, the ld I great importance to discover the tre priton not wan harged fall in heir wearst i o aaisntto be: -d too dat l the a irewtr s of the o Horship ian'-s selegants hyuses. "Such/~is. ture w~uid le.that~ ionstend jof a:g, gencirai: -~de'of E~rganie,ah (w' taYdre) Mr. MITHE~~ cold not egret hvin made t'ie 1 V~~y ~halv~~~~~~~is dem. H'fraom Hawihn, th fhe nitea fr hm H nthey were tshe i sam owith tem larkwhichl had fallen llt from himi,sinrce it ha given hl ownu He dtthe value of eves speies of The gentlema nn from Hamilton san itizen ofat Ohio, fand mof oenea l pois -areisra tviw uponsi ther on subjectha mit in t reis |othr maen But he di:d no want tohat fom this remarks rptthat he was so narrowt minded as not to b e abe t o it shuld be ll e de daed t e a I or the ro jadge of a man's sentiments by hi~ declarati~ns and position tof the gentlemsan from Er (r. T.... yhse ats He wa gtog adt e a foromsel.u the gentlemana f heuesuchtec ood- the gen tlem an, he was in aeso r,l oe the declar eiati ou nd reb eni th at mii stjrs of t oe fot-oi tein, by t estah men t oea increasWe thavetm e rep dn enuthi counotory e tha in anytere th ng le an inco e tatx,, by of tax countr ie wthe or ad hi shall increas e ini proportion to.the amount of proit Mr.r RE MElIN spaid there ason thea in tbis C ountryh biy they inivdul, as' g o Tuch, or such "apir othey do'niot rl attempt toaexact rIcs cent ot. on, ne theousand dollars, iere eon two or thesec Mr. MITCHELL. Ths'ie:'i's un'6aoubtedly true; hut he o-d th osi and e a solie was noti vr s would put t to th e een common senst e -of thes aentle an a doctrine. He did not ibel t terefi onot b ae whenther his r emarks.i n prelation to rgeln ad ites t'a, in'op r visionis o a o trisnth "an ::......~ morning, were calulte to t~hmkta hltsoan frornsH-mltoens sawe fit tog tenouh aTfavr, asfre as pssembhesO of moe aftera urvs; wo'wH' minister rt ee o sfirt mae ts h t the pomuaen ofe ry in individual hands., He thought inreasee that trespect;wheothat~h' c ituret -hae noton,r all suchne aests wl be won ge,d b w a fortunate, ainid girl, goin tsc would operateunjtly; and that the true do in i the e God thats t e'in f avors the m nargew ntoripi n a to dlea u to the t proper tsuce" of Dnr.atural laws by direct governmental aefi"6n,~~~~~~~~~~~~ butil eavngi ohe' mwit n g,oplavhequetion wehrcuels sdieem owas eanculated himseto frea rw that respect.g It li alwnd yse s h a s ae oprtin th hay,looking ouro defiencie,nd adeane' th picuetetio the Le,i slaule. h havne a done,. hae oul ave made o his ough t t tilr t ro r mn tnes i tho conlGode for ohaving npardt her d i her ny placeve tha!ero in lon that tionhisfohoteg a to a to worsp Hiomt in. Sthtat beha ll Imems one geerion in the ha so the s ame men or fa4iihg prho ihso c st, he ot ouo therefoe affore heru ec the rs tss wge C~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~1 ) hounry, fe epityof t,i~ttt~sadtherbs'l C Inw:ta:'i many.s chourch: e'-alsuhd e n, go~n~ox e ldt p~of thos~e~ me' an toimge rfgates its elf wi tut esatie assit stillrful^-yhtendn Spljor.t' -nd: ~sustain less-' io~rnm~ent a[ lut high doeg ot preve tha t wecarre vent it,.gI oft ha more comfortable place ford this Holy'service. sb Thiscance 'wold have beas en lce ot pictured o the hembt eion Bu my idessu asorveof e the su bject I exe bdpiou g hosemen ortral o heb lem anu ito thda odth. wils to seeW y!'~l th e onstant a cporine ennvy would hae fillod her, heaor, aeains thes aimtof this kiiend,so worhip in elegant e Cion.ses. u a ranta of ai g al e e rgane i.etlaw, we-, aore have drawn, hag d u st he reightly a a the subj an t of pericuae r lisolaet e air;bu The gen otleman from Hamilton saw fat oeu attend favor, asr, po e, of hmore geout nerall provsions.e little to the'county ofKn,4ox. aN-ow —eonit is true in! sme But even her'e, we are. obiged to discmate. - n r espects thatthe p ueople p have not comeup pts w shal l be ob ligae to particutari.In to the hi tighstaidar oerfper wtion whichthe a o en tloen il o doi, li wish to moak e th e eroper discrimrnai on semsto, arrogahtfe fr hmself. But we have beogibe'run to in o ee hbeessine atriln the appreciateour defcie'nciest and toe be et rid s o ore detailea leisla on. I have no fea r of them-e who ave become learned enu to know- inutrts of the-ta e ha d f t he erfully tenxl ~~~~~~~~~~~~to knpowt d sstai-the vrnetibttis osnotpoeta tea lpre,et h r-aj haf how little wOedoko antis I to hea sawidws. General Asdsem5bly wh it i s d I am no inconsidea e attainm et.I wo t o notc infor o f, neit he r do I bellie-ve the doctrine that t he genlm n frm Hamilton the stfud o t o- 6 1 all wisom and all judgment and discretion will ne ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'ifotmp.slbe ohtuo h fecl;ro.I lt:n fte apoe'ud r est tioan.yw, iipe some~~cases, lmger Smoun-ts and v~ues-wi!-l be-exenvpt- Ilone;S l~ut dbes not all t~e in~colne d ffie, gment a d di ed thegm and ithers. application. ot oTh e, genatleman sm t cessaril,y vanish with th e dissolution of tlso think that his own constituents hav got high enough. Tere are assemle to come atru,whsilb Iln.Kn'ox we are glad to'possess the,,an t mae gifted with aIlIty Intliec n oet,dut still fuir-ther aances. less i'ahihdgeasware, and I mno. fri Heas o not infavor of th'e'enouragement of rexi to delegat te mproperalt are of power o sh. by di goern,enta l action, but o f leaving it it t am willingr vatoleave -the q uestion whte churche iniida iian -himself~ ~to- g&o: forw' ard, in his" own school houe,adbyggrudshlbetxdt wa,lokinig only to the mec nd kind~ Providence the diceino h eilature., I knowthtbu of God forother aid.Our Cre~ator has made u sa- sea do exist, anid have n,o doubt~ theyvilcntnet counatabole~for our sentiments and'ouL,r conduct toward exist. -but so will they ever n htfgsainta Hi.We have a duty to perfor'm in that behalf, shall be so mninute.ands' xataro htou vr which,~~~~~~~a if iglypromdwi,redound not onlyi to p~o~sibility of an abuse, willbeetesuehani the glory f o but to the peace and safety of,our it h ractr r intolerable for its oppressive stringent country, he perpetity of it institutons, nad he bet yI know tainmn church elgtablishmegnts goouofthoey hoar toi ome afteus, andtwillpw ag muts ofvlalcpoetvsap aain erfully tend to suppot and sustain the govrn meat but this doe not prove that we ca'prevent it, or tha HIQ ())VETO DEAE-rtDY DYME jO 4 loss we suffer-in' regard to the abuses inl:the taxation Mr. DO;SEY (interfering.) He mentionedno name of their property.. his allusion was general. Butther are abuses of greater consequence, the Mr NEY. My view, Mr. Chai;man a" "ut., e-rtq views. ~~~~~~~~~Mr. C airmn~ ar[ remedy for whicl should be provided in this co.ti take the gund tat the whole subject of tutior-things which do not accrue. from any public i muncdt.regultation natulL ivides itsell it o benefit, or gro out of that which in any formbm - m rnc, the fist is,to.t., ,t,,~~~~~~~~ofacn the rs alae,olr said,l) ist etaso - ters to the safety pr welfare o-f thie State. Theare lht are pvi o l to th s - hfishf udmena piisosataw a d' the seconid.!s large amouam 0f 9:uor Ow ~~t o ds,' WinCh now large9amounts of our own Statbnswic to psrie the uetaiis fo fca rryi ng out these,prov,is py no taxes ad large amountsofbank stocks ne. to P,,6ribe..th.. pame cnOta and tohis abis~e, there is n rede We are entrusted with the duty of framing:ti same condition. To mrs,douse te o, nz feature. It is a benefit that accrues to the few, poposing to the people for their adoption,the first cla n othe maly. To this we are boun~dto pro- of LAws; andiwihout arrogating to oursev,svnu .ud arml,not to x i:?: er': an'~-" o.f ~t;. due amount of wiedonm, it may be said, that the:people vide a remneod, and if there is any wi,dom i the a.,i l.. te,achings of thepa e must eUsnot give these matters are inlgto trust us thus,l'r The reason wh" 1i thea g banditrust to the Legislatre. faor of fixing the unamental principles an thegY::;. goby,' ma:' i';nhking suc laws here, is- tis. 1 am practically infta -Again, if we attempt tio particuanerln n thesee mat- wvor of the doctrinie of dernocicy —usng th# word di ters ofchurches and school houses; $ hall never no party sense. The people must delegte some po:see the end of the difficulty in which we are involved, er.'Aut as I have also before aid from this plae, itis Amendment after aendment,- drawn upby th i ablest the part ol political wisdom as demonstrated'in, the th bd ias been presented without any men in the body-,'as been preseted, withont any: -history of the p ast, to delegate as little power as pOssi progress inharmonizing conflictingopnions. I have ble,-and why? Because all eiegated power is liable attempted myself, wit.hout much hope of meeting the.to abuse This is my idea. When you adopt a!Dn sense oftheconventin: If they are right in one re'stitution, it is the act of the great democrac'y-the geo spect, they are wron,g in another, and weonly arrise at pie themseives prescribing their Oawn rule of civil te cnclusion, that it is impossible in ageneral pro aCtion But when you leave fundamental laws to be vision to suit'the sense of the whole' State.''Again, -if!settled by the Legislature, it is placintg the exercise of you exempt churches, without specifying.any ve power ostep rter from thesoure,ad tae peole ,t the excluded proprertv, you get into difficulty again p I st frerfom the oue andtei peitli to t,hee e r t.',nc' ff.,-,',a.''possess no dtirect power to correct the decision. IIt is ~~~~~~~i..... in'eh( th[i t ieue om ful- ~-~... I I'.-....'" huM a ny~, ehuppreo cut,,, Many churcne re holden in theupper rooms of.ul. true, we have the power of going to the polls and dis igs, whle the ower stories are occupied as business' placing our servants; but, at thh~ same time, itis true houses at ahigh reut: others are situated i the rear that the power of the people is not brought so diretly of business lots, w-sith ranges. of stores im front. We'to bear npon a law of the Legislature, as when the law find differees in circumstances and difficulties at i s'b'mitteire tl t the people for accetance or b"~ ~~~~~~~ t,t ~ every step, which m.minute'legislation to suit each - m. ret' o t. ever ste, tesi., class of cases can o0ily obviate. I should be glad to li retfeo - ct With reference to hesecunder consideration, fall upon sonegeneral proyision by-which we can get i thtth taxin.poweristeosir. ex~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~~~ri e -tha t m st iira',or, ~.....:~ mIv Idea is, -ha re ra is to e os o overall these diffiiulties There is one exception I-tat POwer that canever eexercsed ian; vrn in theorgani law, eavingtant power that!can evrh xercised iii —any govern am willing tc gltance at m the organic law, leead hy? You hold the right of private the detali to he General Assembly. It is that a certain property to be sacred and inviolate: you wi ll not,. per.amount of proparty be left free from taxation to every mit the State itself to encroach upon it nor will you man in the State. I would not specifytie amount,but prmit e itizen to interfere with the pro'perty of . ~ ~ ~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ ~1.-I _.,'.-,-. -Y_:~. would lay do6wn th:,, principle At the proper time, i other citizen. But you, will come iI and take the I intend to offer angntire substitute for the report of' iize under t- n o t; ,.' -..,, >'' *..-.T.. prop ze; under the name of x amn. the commitmee. which 11 will read for information. It r pe o i ll.... -. Sir: the most arbitrary governments Europe,do not, -.-tisas reews:.at. day, allow themselves, by open violene, to in e,'..i,,- u d ., TIO Legistatur( shati pro'rtde~by taw a.uniform rule va rights of, p property. How then r —,do (le the Y u, im:vate-prpr.mwmn,, of assessment and taxation, accordtng to the — ctut value ~ t r y - of: d'sc': whtee" Whethe..r of property owned of eery description whatever. whether thev ake theirexactions of the people?'hey do it real or persoe l, exctusive of liabilities, and e;empting all ty means of the tax-gatherer, It is the noiseless such amoent and sucl. Pieces of property as Imay bedeemed tread of the tax-gatherer that makes his way ino enildt uch eeplt, entitledto such exettion. e very houseand htovel-into every. nook and corner Leaving the whio ma,tter to the judgment and dis- of the land: where a man or a woman can be founds cretion of'the Generl Assmbly, and providirg only to draw from each one the small surplus which. they for the securi ty of the tax payer. I believe that if we -may have been able to produce by their labor. And go farther than' tlis, we shall be liable to get into dif- this is now the case in Great Britain, where every ]culties from wLich it will b difficult to disengage thing, even light And heat and the air they breathe is ourselves, leaving moreimportant subject entangled all brought under the tax-gatherers jurisdictin. and thns by our omissiohs and commissions, jeopardise Therefore it js-that I say, there is nothig which more the acceptance of this constitution by-the people.; natUrally belongs to the framers of the fundamental Mr, RANNEY. There wasone thing in the-remarks law, than the duty to regulate nd prescribe rules for of the getentleian last upou the floor,whichi if the al- the exercise of the taxing power. I deem it; one, of the l-usion was:'-him, demanded a correction. The charge greatest evils which has-ever befallen the Stateof 0hi, was thatthe gre)ll-nd hadbeen takentha this, thathi o at the Legislature have so gossly'disregarded the in attempting to fix-and esablish something in the tree principles of-taxation. Heretofore they have aid character oflaw im the C~:nstitution, were arogsting to' the heavy burden,of taxation upon'some deseriptons tahemselves a degree. of wisdom above that of every of property, whilst they have entirely exempted other other diliberatlve body;; and'acted as though, they fet descriptions of property. Still gentlemen are propo that wisdom was about to die out whenever they sing that thesame principle which has heretofore been might get ready to adiourn an4 go home. (And'from' so much abused, shall be pursued hereafter! present appearances, if: the wisd;om: of the State were: Sir, if I understand any th'ing of/the demands of the not to die before that, time,;it:would stand a good people upon thishbody —i I understand any thing of chance to last some time yet.)',_But this he averred, t'he objects which have induced the people to assemble that sueh a sentiment never feli] from his:mouth,such this Convention, one of the pniincipal oboets was, to a thought never ntered his heart. - take the incipient steps and equitably to fixin thefi OHII, CONVE,,N ION D'EBATES'-,rP,,Ut"SD""AY-"',D-'P"CE,Mig, , If). 0-, " IElt" .49 'daiental law the gratprinciples Of "taxation,po fereojigsm inagitthinuic n which this'whole nite, hl rce heeate Iea inqaiyoexmu th oewat cgeg' i'g nothing t6 the Lpgislativ.- ybtteaj~ton fte~i~i'a heriies cua~n inent an~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ed ad pt ti n f h detal bft' y t m o l u c r p r y M. R. c n f d d y ~ y ~. I ito all itslt:,~'nt reut bcuse t, getQeatebre oftaain il wlcarrie,t tor has so'adJ~t n d te l rt,ta tsal4sm etent to thoec~ces'hs ene~ be cossetpt t~f S ht fyupoliia ehoet etmre~ ini buidn: n ru4 tha the, property of the,'Saeogtt ea h y rMTHC.Iwud1ht~alteatn~o concered. Iam aw,are, thtteeIsnte very ~im hfnitialtteuoe~ocytoa xmnt"e -prtant requsto u pntecten ic s0,omtms4 ppoiint tyor -not. ut so, far as,teepne f h iid~~ m'inistratiou -of;-the taesi o c'r~ e ol O epe ~ Itk hsve,a b in~~~~~~~~~~~ti~~~~es are, no'tta ~~ proper'ty ~to s,upport",'that bre mesoftaxtoeepi fotationuo terc'ue~ ton, excetn'onlthpopry ly~ ~,lnin't ty'as tepol osipn ntecuty to: tawhich woudb oh~ght nil ena h coat'yoit,he face of thle earth, wh~eieall h- huce of "eVe'ry setfrelig,ioni, a,- somchidbte'd',to h hzh4~et o h ut n ~St'ate as they are in this. W'S.yt hmalw:l co~im tw~ac~grndadbidn mea of uch mo~de of worhi as'ouseltt pigy lninttourhseen proud' remisen,cif -the A~merica'Cbmmonwel ",thefonainoasil huebcsefth havOe said that all reli ions sh~al'l'be equally] oetd ipnoto nth au rpryIakwe "all ~~~~~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~t~ hulbe tax.dt~ ~dt~pOp~f a~ pigGdas he- sees4 fit. I'a's~kif iisureonetooprpry shgerthriscletdagetr' eIthrwluhofllo'otte'prnil,that canosehowecndosceudra ns oieongs~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~s~ soati8bt twr the av epitens~es lilh'of -fu~w it the i~ diitatinorifwee' part fr~~~~~~~~~~~~omtepiipetal,we uh tlat~ hti h wayi e,~ oeadta st -,adlen tefi 4seurg'hi' from th pamht6'sxe lke'ened~t $i,(((,h ahal({) olpra$(,(.Weslud'et 6qi'Anteid~pe~e u prhn ht ucic a eal hch,atri all; iso peray.th tre n eueuly the pa~risnciple o equality, has very-~l,td ing preao in aedeto,tegnlmnfo oubaa itsfaor For it isgru hat tegra.,Ox nof Ie' ~zc ndi anr~e giu cnrgain througoutse tat otibt h qeto heenrice -po,u- thjmeu dmeto the beneiltht of the heibrhd inwi,h hyae Thise ooiin~l eetdadteqeto lcthed-p.iTeea osdrtiucia osi~tt eyrcre pon teoti'of, ehesu'sttue orth OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DECEMBER 10. In place of the second section of the minority report, I institutions, as such. But I would not be willing will offer as a substitute for the proviso, tihe following, that any literary institution should possess a college which has been prepared for rue by a member of the endowment of half a million, and hold the whole ex Finance Committee: empt from taxation. I am willing that school houses 'The property of the State and counties shall be exempt and grave yards should be exempted, but I want all ed from taxation, and the General Assembly shall have these to be clearly defined inthe Constitiition. power to exempt such property of tow nshi ps, towns, cities, aend literary and scientific socities, and institutions for purposes mento adding thefoing d of public charity, also public burying grounds and places for met by addng the follo ng: public worship,aud such amount and description of personal "Provided that ill all instances where the property ex. property belonging to individuals as it may, deem right." empted from taxation shall belong to any society or corpo The only material difference ration not political, no suit at law or equity shall ever be Mr. H. continued. The only material differenice brought or prosecuted for any injury to, or trespasses upon between this and the former substitute is in the last the same." clause, which embraces the amendment of the gentle- Mr. W. said. I perceive that some anxiety exists, man from Miami. and ever has existed, to shuffle the burden of taxation Air. KIRKWOOD. I would like to know whether from one part of the community to another. I pro the gentleman's amendment leaves to the Legislature pose, therefore, that all property that does not pay its a discretionary power to exempt Church property? quota of the revenue shall be thrown out of the pale Mr. HITCHCOCK. The intention is not to allow of the protection of the law. For it is unjust that of the exemption of the entire amount of property property should be protected by the laws and yet not which may belong to a Church; but simply to exempt contribute to the support of the Government. If men the place of public worship. For instance, there is a are unwilling to support the Government, let them be Church-[pointing to the new Edifice being erected by thrown out of the pale of its protection. The ground the First Presbyterian Church of CiacinnahtiJwhich which I take upon this question is, that all property the amendmeint would authorize the Legislature to ex- should be taxed alike-that all the property in the empt from taxation, but not any other property which State, not belonging to the public, should be subject to mightbelong to that religious Society. taxation. If one portion of the community obtain Mr. KIRKWOOD. Does it authorize the exemption exemptions, the same right will be claimed by other of the building of literary institutions? portions; asad the very minute you exempt a part of Mr. HITCIICOCK. The substitute authorizes the the property of the State, you necessarily increase exemption of property belonging to literary institu- the burden o taxation upon the remainder. tions; but, I believe, without specification. Mr. HAWKINS. I suppose the gentleman from Mr. KIRKWOOD. My idea of the true principle o Ashtabula offered his anmendment, mnerely in jest, or, levying taxes is, that the means of the citizens should perhaps, with a view of showing up the consistency all be taken to form a basis of taxation. I lay it down, (f these discriminations. in the first place, as a general principle, that everything On yesterday morning, I suggested that this ques should be taxed, without exception. tion of exemptions from taxation was a matter dificult I do not understand whether the proviso now pro- to settle, either as to the amount or the kind of pro posed to be inserted, expressly requires, that any prop - perty that should be exempted. With respect to exerty shall be exempted. The difficulty heretofore has emptions in favor of church and school property, if been, that the Legislature have been authorized to we could make a just and proper discrimination, I make bargains with corporations, and to determine should be glad if we could avail ourselves of it. I whether their stock should be taxed or not, or to what have listened attentively to the argumenits on both extent it should be taxed. Now, I do not believe that sides, and, upon reflection, I am rather disposed to bethe Legislature should have the right to tax the prop- lieve, that it would be about as well to tax all alike. erty of corporations in one way, and the propert be- It is laid down by the writers upon this subject, that longing to the citizens of the State generally in another that system which requires the least amount of reveway. laue, is most equitable, and may be collected witll the Heretofore, credits have escaped taxation entirely. least embarrassment to the individual, is the best. I do not think credits ought to escape taxation. I do Then if taxing without discrimination will lighten not see, if I hold the notes of individuals to the amount the burden, and afford the greatest facilities for collectof $10,000, why I should not be taxed for them. We ing, the question is, whether that is not what we have taxes upon property, and upon money at interest, should aimn at. and why should we not tax credits? Mr. MANON. There is a very respectable portion I desare to e t the Constitution provide expressly of the members of this Convention, who are men of a what description of property shall be exenmpted, so high order of learning, and the gentleman from Monthat nothing but what is specified in the Constitution roe, [Mr. ARCHBOL.D,] will rank as high as any. But, can be exempted. after all, even a commron mnan may see the absurdities I believe that, heretofore, we have had nothing at in which such men will sometimes involve themselves. all in the Constitution with reference to taxation; but Now, the gentleman from Monroe has said, vou will the whole has been left to the Legislature to make tax a church member, who pays his money towards such distinctions as they have seen fit. Now, I do building churches and sustaining the Ministry, but not want to leave to them the exercise of this powerI only let him turn infidel and you will iot tax him. hereafter, for it has been grossly abused by them But now, if any such idea as this has been advanced heretofore. They have been bargaining with particu- in this chamber, I have not heard it. No man here lar classes of men how their property should be tax- has proposed to tax a church member any more than ed, whilst they have left other property belonging to any other class of men. Those gentleman who advothe people of the State to be taxed under a general cate taxing churches, advocate the principle of taxing law. We might call such a Legislature a despotism, all property alike. This is a subject which, as a conefor such a course is despotic in principle. mon man, I claim to understand about as well as any I believe that the principle of exempting all the other man. My constituents have sent moy Colleague, property of churches is wrong; but I believe that the [Mr. ~sSR,] here, that, to some extent, he may take Legislature should have power to exempt a specific care of the judiciary department, and I shall look lp amount of church property, as such, and a specific to him to some extent, at least, because he is a got d amount of the property of all literaly and scientific lawyer; but upon this question I am prepared to a(t 51 5 52 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DECEMBER 10. prepared a proposition, which he intended to offer at the proper time, with the view of exhibiting his own sentiments upon the subject. He would read his amendment, for information. It was to strike out all after the word "provided," and insert: "Public burying-grounds, Public School Houses and the property belonging to-the State and county, shallnot be subject to taxation." Mr.: KIRKWOOD moved to amend the words proposed to be striken out, by striking out of the 4th line of the section, after the word "and," these words: "grounds upon which religious edifices are erected;" and insert, in lieu thereof, the word "churches." He desired to embrace nothing but the building and the ground upon which it should stand. This amendment was adopted-affirmitive 43, negative 27; but Mr. SMITH of Wyandot intimating that he did not vote upon the question because the word "church," had a very indifinite meaning Some conversation followed, in which Mr. HITCaCOCK of Cuyahoga, Mr. MASON, Mr. KIRKWOOD, and Mr. HORTON took part; when the latter gentleman suggested that the words "place of public worship," would cover both the ground and the house. Mr. KIRKWOOD was willing to accept that modification. Whereupon, by unanimous consent, the vote was taken over again, and the Chair-nnan reported; affirmative 40, negative 32. So Mr. KIRKwooD's amendment was agreed to; and the question recurred again upon striking out the proviso, as now amended. This proposition was a greed to without a division; and the question recurred upon inserting the substitutute of Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga. Pending this question, On motion, by Mr. MITCHELL, which was agreed to, the committee rose, and the Chairman reported. And then, on motion, by Mr. BROWN of Carroll, The Convention took a recess till 3 o'clock, P. M. as efficiently as he or any other member. Because, now, if we would act in accordance with the advice o f tho se l earned g entlem en, t hat is, lea ve this whole matter to be determined by legislation, and all would be right-otosger t ther, with I know not how an other questions, which have been before us-it seems to me tha t all w e w ould ha ve to do woul d b e to adjourn and g o ho me. If this be the prevailing sentiment, I h ave pr epare d a resolu tion that ough t to c arry it out; and whenever it may be in order I sha ll o ffer it.- I will read it now for information: "Resolved, That the General Assembly be a nd is hereby authorized to provide for the general good government, of the people of this State, and such other provisions as they may th ink best." I shall offer this resolution at some proper time, for t is manifestly absurd for us to stay here at the public expense, and finally win d up and leave the Legislature to manage everythi lng just as they please. Mr. LOUDON. At an early day of the session of the convention, I was aware of the difficulties which this report would have to meet with; and, i f I could have ha d my choi c e in the matter, I would not have had anythingto do with it. But I deemed itmy dut t o present su ch a rep ort to the convention, as would be just in itself, a nd h o norable alike to the convention, the c omm ittee and the State-embracing such principles s would b ring n o unpleas ant ref lections upon the commi ttee nor upon the convention; and I now appeal to ever y member, whether, if we take thi s whole section, as it stands, it is not bas ed upon just and equitable principles. [Mr. L. now read the section-pointing out a misprint —the word "may," should have been printed instead of "shall."I The committee (he continued) were unwilling ot fix the precise sum; proposing that that should be l ef t to uo the discretion and better judgment of the convention. A very large majority of the committee were in favor of exempting country churches, school houses, and common burying-grounds, but, upon full consultation, they believed it would be unjust in principle to exempt the whole of the church property in the State. They saw that the accumulations of church property in some portions of the State were increasin in enormous ratios-that hundreds of thousands, an: even millions of dollars might be accumulated under the denomination of church property; and they considered that, as we were now about to start anew in the affairs of government, it was a proper time for the people to take this matter into their own hands, and stop this immense abstraction of proper ty from the tax duplicate. We concluded that we would go back to the Jeffersonian doctrine, that all men are created free and equal; and that equality, with respect to the principle of taxation, should, as far as possible, be maintained throughout this broad State. And now, I would like gentlemen to say, whether this principle is not fully embraced in this section? But this is not saying, that, if an amendment should be presented, better calculated to secure equal rights to the people, than this proviso, I would not go for it; on the contrary, 1 pedge myfelf to support such an amendment. Mr. W'OODBURY'S proposition was now rejected; anld the question recurred upon the adoption of the substitute for the proviso of the second section, proposed by Mr. Hitchcock. of Cuyahoga. Mr. STANTON demanded a division of the question — the first question being upon striking out. Mr. LARWlLL would vote this time for striking out; not, however, with a view of inserting the proposition of the gentleman from Cuyahoga. He had not yet enjoyed the pleasure of hearing an amendment, ~rhich met his views exactly' But, he had himnself AFTERNOON SESSION. THREE O'CLOCK, P. M. On motion of Mr. LOUDON, the Convention resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, upon the orders of the day, Mr. LEADBETTo R in the Chair. Th ouhi rod te Convention resumed the cons ideration of t article entitled "Financ e a nd Taxat ion." The question was announced as bei ng on the propo - sition of the gentlema n from Cuyahoga, (Mr. HITCHCOCK.) Mr. HUNTER moved to amend the a mend ment by ins erting after t the wor d "pow er," the words "by general laws." The modif ic ation w as accepted. Mr. GROESBECK. The pr oposi tion pending is one whi ch I can not al low to pass with out a simple and brief expression of my views and feelings. He (Mr. GROESBECK beli eved that the proposition to tax the burial grounds of the community w as so nov el and so contrary to the cherish ed feei ngs of all classes, of all parties and of all creeds in society, and, withal, was so contrary to the dictates of a sound public policy, that it could not stand the test of investigation and argument. As the Cemeteries of this (Hamilton) county had been alluded to by the gentleman from Auglaize and others, he might be permitted to refer to them. The Methodist, tfie Presbyterian, the Episcopalian, the Catholic, and perhaps other societies, lad all provided burial grounds, in which, severally, the dead of this city and its neighborhood were interred. Those of the Methodist persuasion may prefer to bury thei OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WFDNESDAY, DECEMBER 1I. If the proceeds from such sales left a surplus after paying for the original purchase, such surplus was nemployed in keeping in repair and in beautifying the engrounds-most laudable objects, and entirely worthy of encouragement. He hoped that the proposition would be rejected, or that gentlemen would be more definite in their use of terms. Mr. HORTON moved to strike out the word "pub lic "where it occurred in the amendmentofMr. HITCi cocK. He thought this would obviate the well foun ded obiections of the able gentleman from Hamilton (-M R. C-,tOESBECK.) The motion was agreed to. Mr. TAYLOR moved the following as a substitute for the original proviso: Provided, That the General Assembly shall have power to remit the taxes levied upon the property of the United States, the Ftate, counties and townships; upon burial grounds, and also upon buildings for churches and schools, he value of which shall not exceed dollars. Which motion was disagreed to. The question then recurring on the originialamend-. Dtmnt (MR. HITcHIcocK's,) the same was disagre.d to. Mr. LARWILL moved the following as a substitute fo r the original proviso: "No burying ground or property belonging to the State or counties" shall be sublect to taxation. Mr. WORTHINGTON moved the following as a substitute: Provided, That Public School houses, grounds exclusively used as burying grounds. edifices used exclusively as churci, es. and the ground oil which they stand, shall not be sub ject to pay taxes, and the General Assembly shall have pow er to exempt from taxation by general law such property of the United States, of tovwnships, churches, schools, literaiy and scientific societies, institutions surely;elemosynary,and such personal property as they may deem just. Which was disagreed to. Mr. MANON moved to amend the proposition (f Mr. LARWILLby inserting in theproper place thewords "Public School Houses, " which motion prevailed. Mr. KIRKWOOD moved farther to amend by in serting the words, "and houses used exclusively for public worship andl the grounds whereon such build ings are erected:" which motion also prevailed. Mr. GROESBECK proposed farther to amend by adding the following to come in after the proviso: ~ That public school houses, all burialigrounds used express ly for the purposes of interment, all public grounds, all p,.L licbuiidings owned by this State, counties,townships, citi, or towns, which have been or may be erected and paid f 1 by a Tax levied and collected according to law, shall not b; s.bject to Taxation. Upon which mnotion the Committee divided, andi stood, affirmative 43, negative 30. So the motion prevailed. Mr. WORTHINGTON suggested the propriety of adding at the end of Mr. GROESBECK'S amendment the words, "from which a revenue is not derived." At this stage of the proceedings, and without takindg a vote upon the pending amendment [Mr. LArWILL'S], the committee rose and reported. The Report as amended was then re-committed to the Standing, Committee on Finance and Taxation. An d then, on motion, the Convention adjourned. SIXTY FIRsT DAY. WEDNESDAY, Dec. 11th, 1850, 9 A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adiournmenlt. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. FISaER. On motion of Mr. LOUDON, the O:onvention resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the order of the day. Mr. LEADBETTER in the Chair. The subject under consideration, being report Numbeone of the St~anding Committee on Finance and Tax. dead within the enclosure of their own grounds, set apart for that purpose, but are not necessarily con fined[ to those grounds. And this preference generally exists with the communicants of the other denomi nations. The burial grounds of this city are all pri vate, or denominational cemeteries. HIe believed there was not a public burying ground, strictly speaking, in the county, and perhaps none in the State. He would, therefore, ask gentlemen to explain what they meant by the term "public burying grounds," when they proposed to exempt them only from taxation? He ventured to say that were the proposition now in debate to be incorporated in the Constitution, and in its present form, almost every burying ground in the State would be subject to taxation. When the ques tion came to be properly understood, the Convention would find itself unprepared to declare that the burial grounds of the people should hereafter be taxed in the same mainner and to the same extent as their farms, their merchandise, and other property. It seemed to him that it was only necessary to submit the question to a direct vote to obtain from every Delegate the response, "1We will not tax the burial grounds of the State." He would ask of those gentlemen who favored the proposition under discussion, how they would pro ceed to levy and collect a tax upon this species of property? It was proposed to levy the tax, not upon the person-not upon the owner of a cemetery lot but upon the thinl. T he S tate of Ohio levies a tax upon t he bu rial g round of a citizen, which probably com prised an area of fifty f eet square; itf the tax was not taid, tha t spot o f ground, set apart for the last resting place of a family, was f orfeited, and became the prop ert,y of the State; and, according to the law that is now, and that will be i n t he future, it would be or d ered that the Se i or heriff, oe ofier p ut up that grave lo t f or s ale, to t he highest b idde r, at a public auction! It was proposed that the State of ohioe shoul d, in the event of the n on-paym en t of taxes, sell out th e little spots of ground, selected and kept in order by A, and B, and C, and D, in every neighborhood in the State l The idea was monstrous. Nor was he willing to believe that it was the fixed pur pose of gentlemen to embody and carry it out in a sole iom n Constitutional provision. It was true that cemetery lots came with in the definition of the term "pr operty;" but it was not such property as s hould e taxed by the State. It could not be hoarded-it could not be the basis of financial speculation- it was not w ealth, w hen considered with regard to the duties of the Assessor of property for the purpose of taxati on. He asked gentlemen who supported this proposition, if they would take burial grounds, or cemetery lots by execution or judgment? The man must be a monster who would take property in that way, and for the State doing the same thing he had no milder term. He cared not how far the Conventiotn might carry the application of the taxing power, but he did ask, in all earnestness, that the graves of the dead might be preserved intact. For what end was this strange provision proposed? Why, that the great State of Ohio might gain a very slight accession to her revenue! He had never before heard of such a thing —he had never heard of the society, civilized or barbarian, Christian or Heathen, who had proposed to desecrate the grates of their dead for a palty addition to the pubiic treasury. It had been remarked that there were cemeteries in this city, and in other portions of the State, which were laid out as a matter of private speculation. It was not so. Not a dollar of the funds arising from the sale of cemetery lots was applied for speculative purposes. 53. 54 1OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER I 1. ation, the question was on the amendment of Mr. HOLMES to the substitute for the proviso to the second section, offered by Mr. LARWILL. Mr. HOLMES asked and obtained leave to withdraw his amenldmenlt. The question then being upon the amendment of .Mr. LARWILL, the same was agreed to.. The question was stated by the Chair, to be upon the amendment of Mr. GREEN, of Ross. Mr. HORTON thought that as the amendment of the.gentleman from Ross was intended as a substitute for the entire section, any amendment that proposed to perfect this section took precedence of the motion to strike out; to which view, the Chairman acceded. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE had an amendment, or rather a substitute to the section, which he proposed, at some future time to offer. He had given much reflection to the subject, and found that it presented many difficulties, so many that any attempt to harniosize conflicting opinions seemed almost impossible. He was satisfied that it would not do to go into to great minuteness in specifying particular exemptions. It was the duty of the Convention, to declare general principles and so far to fix the boundaries of exemption as to guard the General Assembly against too great an abuse of its power in that behalf. There are many articles which cannot and should not be ever enumerated for taxation. He remembered the cry that was raised in 1840, against the chicken tax, originating from nothing more than the fact, that the government of the United States had required a return, in the official census, of the number of fowls owned by the people. The mere inquiry raised a fear and a cry of taxation, although there was not and never had been the least intention on the part of the general Government to raise a direct tax upon chickens, or any other species of property. It will not do to descend to too great minuteness. There are many things that he wanted left off, and the omission to tax which could, by no possibility work any injury either to individuals or the public. He did not know that he should offer his amendment at all. He however would read it, for the information of the Committee, and if he saw the proper opportunity, present it for adoption, in lieu of the second section. It is as follows: SEC. 2. Alt the property in this State shall be subject to alt equal and uniform rule of taxation —provided property owned and used strictly as public property, and personal property to a limited amount owned by individuals, and property used exclusively for educational, religious, buri al and charitable purposes, may by general laws be exempted from taxation. Mr. LOUDON hoped the gentlemaln from Medina, (Mr. HuMPHREVII,LE,) would not press his substitute at this time. He desired to pass over this section for the pesent, and to get upon the remainder of the report. e were making no progress, and he wanted to get forward as fast as possible. He hoped the section would be passed for the present; and would make a motion to that effect, hoping for the indulgence of the Committee. The question on passing the section for the present, was agreed to. SEC. 3. The Legislature shall mak e provision- for taxing money invested in State, and United States Bonds, as money at interest is taxed. Mr. LOUDON did not desire at, thfis time to occupy the time of the committee further than was necessary briefly to state the views that had governed the majority of the Committee oIn Finance and Taxation in reporting the section as it here stands. The section, as will be seen, does not propose to tax the bonds or stocks of the State, but to tax the money that is or shall be invested win those securities. If there is any distinction between that property or those monieys in the State that ought not to pay taxes, and those that ought to pay, the iylaiority of the committee was unable to draw it. He would suppose a case that would exemplify his idea of the principle involved. A, B. and C. are capitalists in the State of Ohio. Each has money which he desires to invest for the purposes of profit and income, to the amount of say thirty-three thousand dollars. A. purchases im prov ed farms with his money, B. invests his in merchandize, while C lays his out in the bonds of the State, bearing interest- Mr. CHAMBERS inquired what question was before the committee. The- CHAIRMAN said that there was none. Mr. CHAMBERS submitted if the genltleman was in order. Mr. HORTON said, that for the purpose of enabling the gentleman from Brown, [Mr. LouDON,] to make his statement, le would move to strike from the section under consideration, the words "United States." Which motion being in order Mr. LOUDON proceeded to say. The whole amount of one hundred thousand dollars invested in the three different kinds of property, is equally entitled to, and does receive the Protection of the government; and each part of the same, it seemed to him, ought to pay its proportion of the tax for the support of, or as lt is said, of greasing the wheels of that go vernm ent. Yet while A. a nd B. are force d t o pay their share, C, more, fortunate or more wise, escapes. He has purchased property that is exetm pt from taxation. The consequence is, th at in its a pplicat io n tot he State asan en tire comnnunitv, A. and B. pay the taxes upon the e ntire o ne hundred thousand dollars. This is wrong in principle. He knew how his friends who had s igned the minority report met this question. They say, that by repeated acts of the General Assembly, at the various times of the. creation of these bonds, the f aith of th e State has been pledged against their taxation for all ti me to con-e. It may be s o. Gentlemen cite the acts of 1825, and subsequently, to prove the truth of their assertion. This may have been the statute, and the law of the General Assembly. But we are about the business of constructing an organic law forthe State, to last, as we hope, during all future time; and if aln evil of such magnitude be cmlected in so important an instrument. He held it to be an evil. Property of this kind falls only into the hands of the wealthy. It is only such that call, deal in it. There are said to be millionaires in the State of Ohio, men who had the means and the sagacity, at the time when the State was in distress and its stocks had fallen below par, to invest large amounts in these securities. These go untaxed, at the expense of the laborers, the farmers and the mechanics of the State, causing the taxes to fall heavily on such, while they escape. Now, shall we not correct so vital all error?- The majority of the conmmittee thought it should be done, and for that purpose they have presented this section for consideration by this body. Mr. HORTON said he made the motion now before the Convention, for the purpose of giving the gentle. man from Brown, [Mr. LonI~oN,]'an opportunity to deliver his views. He had also other reasons for his motion. He was, with that gentleman, a member of the-committee that made the report now under consideration. Ill somze respects, he had not been able to agree in opinion with the majority of the commnittee, and this was one. of the instances. He desired, therefore, briefly to state' the reasons which had put him in the minority. He said it would be conceded, as a general rule, that OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11. it is a matter of prudence, with all corporations, of every kind, whether municipal or of a merely private charac,ter-whether States or banks, to avoid a contest in which they are certain to be worsted. lHe believed that the question presented by this section to the State of Ohio, was one of that character. It wvill present problemrs of a legal character, to be decided by judges, according to law. He thought it correct to say that we have no constitutional right to tax the species of property under consideratioln-United States Stocks. We should bring ourselves in collision with the government of the United States. Who desires to try the question of right, when he is sure he has the wrong side of the argnument? It has been frequently tried, and on solemn argument, before the highest tribunals of the land, the law has been settled, that we have no right to tax this species of property. If he was in error, gentlemen on this floor could easily correct him. If not, he desired that the words be stricken out. The question being on striking oult, the same was lost, on division-ayes 27, nays 52. Mr. RANNEY moved to amend the section-, in the first lihue, by addiag, between the word "money," and the word "in vested," the words "now or hereafter," which was agreed to. Air. REEMELIX desired that the section be so amiended, as that the right to tax the stocks of other States, owned in Ohio, be unequivocally declared. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE thought the section sufficiently definite for that purpose. 3fr. REEMELIN moved to amend the section, by adding at the end the following: Atnd the Gemeral Assembly may by law make it a bar to, thle collection of every liquidated credit, or on money loaned, wvith or without interest, if the same be not listed for taxa tion. Mr. REEa nELIN said that the object of this amendmnent was to lay the foundation of somi.e plan, to be carried out by the Legislature, by which money loaned at interest or an bond and mortgage, or in other' ilqvidatefd form, might be listed for taxation, without the difficulty of forcing men to swear. He thought by an amendmrient of this kind, the object might be securld and the difficulty avoidecl. He had, while a mnemuber of the General Assembly of the State, brought forward, in a committee of conference, of which Messrs. Cower, of Belmont, and Kelly, of Franklin, were members a proposition of this kind, which had met the approbation of those gentlemen, though they had looked upon it as impracticable under the present constitution, on account of its coming in conflict with a prevision in that instrument, regarding the obligation of contrcts. The object is to oblige all men to list that. portion of their property which consists in i liquidatef credits, by rendering it impossible for themg o to collect thos credits unless they shall do so. Gentleinan may look upon such a remedy as somewhat harsh, but whien they come to examine its workings they will not think so. It merely obliges a man to pay a tax,on the money he lhas loaned at interest, as a condition precedent to its collection. He thought it a very simple means to reach a kind of property not easily reached. The amendment, it will be seen, is worded —The General Assemblymay-ot shall. Thecommnand is not imperative. It merely gives to the General Assembly the power to make such provision in the premises as they shall deem proper, in regard to the collection of taxes upon liquidated debts, to bar the action, in case they are not disclosed. If some such provision is adopted, we shall have no trouble in future. He said there were hundreds of men in the city whose property was many times larger than his own, who paid less taxes. He kn ew a gentleman who p ai d seventy-eight, dollars taxes, whil e ha e paid three hundred; yet that gentleman's property wtas three times as great as his. He had aske one of these gentlemen if he d id not think this tobe wron? He replied that it was not right, but as it suited him well enough he was not anxious to have it changed. Mr. DORSEY said he agreed cordially with the principles of the amendment, but tho ught here woulld be a difficulty in carrying it into practice. He rose, however, for another purpose. He was in favor of the principle uponi which the third section was predicated, but he thought that section not sufficiently full and explicit-not sufficiently broad. It does not cover all the ground that it ought to cover. In order to make the section sufficiently comprehensive to suit his views, he would, at some future time, when it should be in order, offer the following-amendment: Str-ike out all after the word " invested," and insert as follows: "in public stocks, bonds and securities, as money at interest is or shall be taxed." He desired tomake this amendment for the purpose of including a large amount of new stocks, which would soon be in the market. He alluded to the large amount of country, town and city stocks, which are soon to be issued and thrown into market, for the purpose of building various lines of railroads in the State. He thought all would see the propriety of inc luding all these in the lists for taxation. Mr. KIRKWOOD said there was one difficulty that suggested itself to his mind, in regard to-the ameindment of the gentleman from Hamilton, providing that the failure to list liquidated credits should be a barto all actions for their collection. He desired to know how it was to be determined whether a certain given amount was listed or not? The true system of the taxation of a mian's liquidated credits would be to subtract from this sun, the amount ofhisiquidated debts and tax him on the balance. Now when this is arrived at, how are youI to know whether or not any particular parcel of those credits are listed- or not. For instance: A man has listed credits to the amount of one thousand dollars. One of his debtors, owing him one hundred dollars, he is forced to sue for tle collection of the amount. The defendant sets up for a defence, that the amount has not been listed. He shows that the Plaintiff holds credits to the amount of three thousand five hundred, while he only owes to the amount of two thousand dollars; so that the balance to be listed is actually fifteen hundred instead of one thousand dollars he has given in. How is it to be known whether this sum of one hundred dollars forms a part of what he has not listed? Will not infinite difficulties, and questions hard to be settled, grow out of such a practice? Mr. REEMELIN said the subject was not a new one to him, nor was the question propounded by his friend from Richland (Mr. K'IKWOOD) unforeseen. The suppositions of the gentlemen are founded upon the tax laws of the State as they are. He does not seem to understand that those of any other'kind can exist. but he will readily understand that it is easv for the General Assembly to supply defects, and enact such a systenm as will easily and without oppression, carry out the.t principles of the amendment. Hec did not i'ntend to make it imperativesupon the Legislature to exercise the powers granted in the amendment, bult merely to place it in their powerto do so if they deemed it proper.~ He had once drawn up a bill carrying out, in detail the plan proposed, and the only difficulty in carrying it through the Legislature was the constitutional bai' which many of the members thought would Abe fatal to it. tie did not recollect all the features of the bill, b5 5 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, I)ECFMBER 11. b- had sometimes been carried away by his zeal too far to be perfectly accurate. d Under the operation of the system recommended by d the gentleman from Hamilton, the citizen would be n compelled to give in a minute list of all his property - -if he held a note for $100 he must make a return of a the same that it lay be taxed, although, aside from his e debts, he may not be worth five dollars-or submit to an an overhauling of all his private transactions before a - jury. e I 1 do not think such an exactitude in this regard is s necessary, and for that reason, and because thle whole a process i complicated and too compulsory, shall vote against the amendment.' 1 Mr. REEMEL1N. If the pending proposition was - before the General Assembly, accompanied by details, e the objection of the gentlemen from Monroe would a lie. If the proposition was to prevent the creation e of a specific debt, his objection might lie. b- The proposition at present mnade is to leave the i whole matter to future Legislatures. The gentleman s from Monroe, is, however, too good a debater to aty tack this proposition upon its merits. He is too s shrewd a mnan to declare that because a citizen may r refuse to contribute to the expenses of Government, r that Government is to withdraw its protection froui e that non-tax payer. Thle system proposed will prove to be less complicated than the one which is now the e law of the land. You now ask a man to swear to the - list of property which he hands ill to the A,ssessor. e The pending proposition leaves it to the will of a n man to list upon the tax duplicate a note which he s may hold, or omit it. But, sir, should such an indir vidual fail to list that; species of property, I should i take it as an indication that he did not desire the proe tection of the Government under which he lived, and a would say that the Government should decline as sisting him to collect his debts. I would not furnish - to a citizen who was trying to avoid the just obliga1 tions resting upon every member of society, with the - paraphernalia of justice, and I would debar him from recourse to the courts of law, from that of the justice a of the peace up to the supreme tribunals of the land. o Upon a careful investigation, gentlemen will find that the plan of taxation now proposed is less com, plicated and less compulsory than the one now in operation Mr. AROCHBOLD. I must still insist that the ) pending proposition is obnoxious to several objec3 tions. - The citizen must give in a list of every article of property to the least item, because a legal investiga tion would be more expensiveand vexations than the it payment of the tax-although of questionable justice ! -in the first place. I know of but one nation which - lays a tax upon every transaction between its citizens, and that is Spain. Sir, I am no admirer of Spanish . institutions, and I have no desire to import the at - cavallo from the banks of the Guadelquiver to the f shores of the Ohio. O The question then being on the amendment of the . gentleman from Hamilton, the same was disagreed to. On division, ayes 36, nays 43. ; Mr. DORSEY then presented his amendment, (copied above.) ; Mr. HORTON moved to strike from the section, as , it was originally reported, the words "State and." He desired the indulgence of the Committee for a few moments, while he stated the reason for his mo tion. He was a member of the Committee on Finance and Taxation, and pending the construction of the report had taken time to examine the question relative to the right of the State to tax her own issues of stocks. In but was of the opinion that the objections of thegentle man from Richland were obviated by it. He was very anxious that somethi ng o f the kins should be incorporated in this constitution; for he has no doubt that in Hamilton county alone, not less tha two millions of dollars, invested in this kind of secu rities, annually escape s taxation, being placed in condition that it is impossible to be reached by the utmost energy of theAssessors. Let the gentlema r from Richland, look at his own case and circumstan ces. Hewould ha ve no di fficult y in arriving at the exact amount of his own debts and credits. If he has money to lend, or credits tha t are at interest, he cal tell to a dollar how much the y are. H e had spoke n upon the subject to merchants in this city, and had a,sked their opinion upon the practicability of carry ing out a provision of this kind. They were of the opinion that there would be no difficulty whatever is the practice. Let each man be required to go to th~ county Auditor and make out a statement of his prop erty of this kind, with the names of his debtors alsd the amount of each sum owing to him. If he receive, payment from one and loans to another, he can easil) go to the Auditor and make the proper change in his statement. Such kinds of loans are usually made fo a definite time —usually for one year, and the propez amendments could be regularly made, with very little inconvenience to any party. He admited that it was a very easy matter to make objections of any system of taxation,and to start diffi ulilties to any principle of taxation that could b broached for that purpose, and especially so, whet anything like detail in the operation of the system is attempted; but such objections ever were, and evel would be made, still the necessity for taxation and revenue would exist, and if the difficulties raised were always to be set down as insurmountable, no lam could ever be made, and no taxation ever effected. Mr. ARCHBOLD said that it used to be under stood, in old times, that Democracy sought the good of the people, by fixing up such a forn of Govern ment as would bear the most lightly upon the people and not expose them to infinite trouble and vexation Now it seems to be necessary for us to go to school to the gentleman from Hamilton [Mr. REEMELIN] to learn Democracy. According to his system of Democracy it seems to be the whole duty of the government to drag money from the people, and it matters not how oppressive and vexatious the means employed are so that the great end is secured. To him, the State goes about crying, "money, money, money! taxation, tax ation, taxation!" like John Hook, when he went tothe American camp in the Revolution, crying "Beef, Beef Beef!" It makes no odds how hard it comes, or hon difficult or distressing the times are, the cry is money! Now we have a civil list of one hundred and ten thousand dollars. We are obliged to raise that enormous sum annually for the support of the government. And for this the gentleman from Hamilton would harrass and distress every small man in the State of Ohio, who happens to have an insignificant debt due to him, coming under his rigid and iron rule. He had always had a distrust for the gentleman's anecdotes. He found they were not always correct in their facts or their applications. He has brought here his fellowcitizens, the merchants of Cincinnati, and he has made them to speak by his organs, and to assent to his theories apd propositions. Hie would ask the gentlemanl if he had not better introduce the Prosecuting Attorney of the county, and prosecute for perjury every man who made a false or' fraudulent statement of his asserts. He said again he had alwavs distrusted the gentleman's anecdote. He had had occasion to find some of them inaccurate, and thought he OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11. that the poor man, who has confided in the faith of the State, has not as much right to complain as the millionarie, who invests his hundreds of thousands in State stocks in order to obtain an improper advantag? He ought to be ashamed to ask such a thing at the hands of the public. It has been the prevailing characteristic of such men to endeavor to secure an exemptioni from bearing their share of the burdens of the State. Who are they who have invested their capital in stocks? The wealthiest men in Ohio. Are they not ashamed to stand up and ask for such an exemptioii? Are there men in Ohio, so rich as to have got beyond the reach of the binding force,of the government!-sapowerful as no longer to need its protection? He could not see the difference in the principle, whether tapplied to the poor man, whose case he had cited,and the rich possessor of the obligations of the State. Both, according to their means, should aid in bearin the public burden. It is all a humbug to talk of the faith of the State. There is nothing of State faith involved in the question. The only faith which the State is bound to observe toward her citizens, is that she lay on each, according to his proportion, his share of her expe nse s; an d th ose who invest their money in stocks have intelligence enough to know, that by such means is the public faith and honor most adequately conserved. Mr. MASON. Mr. Chairman-the Committee on Finance and Taxation have reported the following section, to be inserted in the Constitution, namely: the year 1825, when the first creation of stocks took place, and at the tim e of the inceptio n of our system of public improvement, t he faithi of the State was pledged that they should never be taxed. He had exami ned all o the laws of the State, whereby stocks were created after that date. Most of them refer to that law, and carrv with them tha he same obligation, and some do not, i n express te rms make th e same pledge; but on a fair and liberal construction, taking into consideration he prte the spirit and meanwing of the law th ere is n o doub t but all should and were intended to be under the operation of t he pledg e. He thought that u nder such circumstances it would not be right to tax any of them; and that if a m an were under the same, hewould feel himself boun d, in honor, to place all upon th se sam e foundation. Such was his deliberate opinion, and h e felt bound to act in accordance with it. He thought the question so far a s presen t s tocks are concerned to be s ettl ed. Many of th e later issue s are f or t he renewal of former ones. o The question is: If we make provision for the taxation of future issues, w ill not Ohio, if it ever becomes n ecessary for her again t o go into the market, lose more on th e strength of t he idea that she has unlimited pow er of taxa tion, than sh e will gain out of any taxes she will be likely to levy? Will not, in fact the certain loss be greater than any probable gain? Should not such a c ons ideration point us certainl and imperatively to our future course? B ut this is more than a mere question of dollars and cents. It is a q uestion of S tat e credit, standing and r espe ctability. As a citizen, he felt an interest in the reputation and credit of the State, and in t he st a nding and value of her stock s in the-market of the world. And when he could see, as is now the cas e, the stocks of Ohio st and ing as high as thos e of New York and Massac huset ts, a nd nearly as high as those of the United States, he did not wish to look forward to any course of policy, b y w hich he should be de prived of that gratification;, nor to hav e the State deprived of th at advantage. He thought equally that it would be bad faith to tax the issues of the past, and bad policy to tax thos e of the future. Mr. MITCHELL desired to ask the gentleman from Meigs (Mr. HORTON) one q uest ion, and h op ed for a categorical an swer. He would- ask him if in his opiniaon, the laws of the State, exempting certain species and amounts of property from execution for debt, are not repealable? Mr. HORTON said he had not examined the law, and had not, at present any opinion upon the matter. Mr. MITCHs ELL did not th ink the r eply of the H onorable gentleman consistent w ith h is usual firmness and candor. Mr. HORTON did not know what that question had to do with the one before the committee. Mr. MITCHELL would ask the difference in princi — plebetween the repeal of such laws, and the repeal of any other statutes that confer upon individuals any par-ticular advantage of any other kind. For instance: There is a poor man in Ohio, who under the influence and encouragement of the laws exempting certain pro perty from execution, takes the limited means that he may happen to have acquired by his industry or his frugality, and lays it out, upon the faith of the State, in such articles of property as are exempt by law from execution. He makes it upon the faith of the State. Upon the basis of that faith, he expects that it will forever be exempt from seizure. The Legislatml e in its wisdom reeals the law, and takes away that privilege which ha~ been expressly conferred. There is no complaint about this. We do not hear the gentleman from Meigs crying that a wrong has been donle. N~ow, why is it "The Legislature shall make a provision for taxing'money invested in State and United States bonds, as money at inter. est is taxed." A motion has been made to s trike ou t t he w ords that propose to tax the State bonds. The report makes no distinction between bonds, as to which the f aith of t he State ha s been solemnly pledged that they shall never be ta xed, and bo nds that may be hereafter issued. Such a distinction is necessary, if we would not violate our plighted faith. The question presented is, therefore, not whether it would be expedient and proper to tax money invested in bonds thatc may be issued according to laws hereafter to be passed, but whether we have the power to tax bonds heretofore issued under laws that have expressly guarantied their exemption from taxation. I suppose we have no such power; and if we have not, the motion ought to prevail, and the report of the committee to be so amended as to apply to bonds that may hereafter be issued. In 1825, the State having adopted an extensive system of internal improvements, took measures to provide for- the execution of so important an undertaking. And the General Assembly passed "An act to provide for the internal improvement of the State of Ohio by navigable canals." This law, dated the 24th of February, 1825, laid the foundation of the system which has since been completed, at a cost of twenty millions of dollars. This law made provision for raising money, by borrowing, and pledging, irrevocably, for the payment of principal and interest, among other things, the revenue derived from the canals and a certain amount of taxes, for which "transferable certificates of stock were to be issued to the lender, redeemable between the years 18.5 and 1875. And a a further security to the lender, it was declared that ",the faith of the State was thereby pledged that no tax should ever be levied by the Leglslature, or under the authority of the State, upon its stocks, to be created by virtue of this act, nor upon the interest which may be payable thereon; and further, the value , 57 58 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES —-~EDNESDAY, DECETMiBER 11. of the said stocks shall be in no wise impaired by any come the owners of any of these bonds. They made legislative act of the State.",them negotiable upon the face of them. I would like With this law in their hands, the agents of the State to know how that gentleman arrived at the knowledge went into the money market and negotiated a loan of of what that Legislature never understood, or never several millions of dollars. The law sets forth the intended? and how it is he is able from such premniises terms and conditions upon which the State was wil- to reach the conclusion that you are at liberty to vio ling to contract for the loan. These terms and conrdi- late the faith of the State, because afew citizens of Ohio tions were satisfactory to the capitalist, and relying have an interest in those bonds. But, as to the on the ability and good faith of the State, he accepted foreign bond-holder, hlie is to be better treated. He the terms proposed and advanced his money. would throw the shield of protection around the citi The law under which a contract is made, enters into zens of New York or Great Britain; but, if these the contract and becomes a part of it; and if the law bonds, in the regular course of business, should come should afterwards be altered or repealed by one of the by assignment, into the hands of the citizens of Ohio, parties, without the consent of the other, the obliga- then forsooth, the law which protects them from tax tion of the contract would still remain in full force, ation, must be set aside. under the Constitution of the United States, which Mr. Chairman, we have cause to rejoice-those of declares that "no State shall pass any law impairing us who will not go into this crusade against the honor the obligation of a contract." Such, briefly, are the and faith of the State-that there is a power above facts and the law relating to the bonds you propose you, able to control and rectify all attempts at nullifi to tax; and the question arises, whether we have pow- cation by even constitution makers. er or right to tax themn, and can do so without viola- These bond-holders, Mr. Chairman, will not pay ting the public faith. your tax, until they shall have made it a judicial The power of the State to impose a tax upon money question in the courts of the United States. I know vested in bonds of this description, and held by the that; and I also know that there is nothing in this citizens of this State, does undoubtedly exist, unless suggestion to drive gentlemen from their purpose taken away by the terms of the law under which the nothing at all. contract was made. But if the bonds were issued un der a law which pledged the faith of the State that Does any gentleman doubt that it was a contract, which the Go,'ernment. made with the money-lender, they should never be taxed, it became a part of the which thie Go'erment made with the money-lender contract, binding upon both parties, and so the power and that this money was borrowed, and th certificates issued under;4 lav declJaring, that they should never could not, in such a case, be exercised, without a pal- bs under c law declaring that they should never pable breach of faith. besuoject'totaxation? TheState,byitsagents, went t o the rnoney-lender with this law in their hands. It is fortunate that there is a power above us which Sir, this law constitutes the warrant, and contains the is competent to correct the wrong that would be done erms and conditions upon which the State of Ohio by the refusal of the State to comiplv with its contract. proposed to obtain its loans. The attempt to violate our own contract in this matter of taxation, can have no other effect than to fasten r. Chairman the State of Ohio has solemnly an indelible stain on the hitherto fair character of the and expressly plighted herfaith, as before said, to the State. The attempt must fail of ultimate success and original bond-holders, and to those who held them by be followed by the shame that attaches itself to acts i assignment or otherwise, not only under the law of of perfidy.tesh |aatahsisltoat 1825, but under subsequent acts of legislation. I re. of perfidy. Sir, we have heard the fer to the act of March 16, 1839, page 68, where it is Sir, we have heard the Chairman of the committee | prescribed that the money authorized to be loalned unwhich reported this section, in explanation of the re- der that act, was to be taken uponthe same terms upon port (Mr. LOUDON.) And I will state the effect of his which the loan was negotiated under the act of 18f5, argument. Admitting that the faith of the State had and placed under the shield of the 5thll section of that been pledged, he says that we are about to construct act. anew the organic law; and that was the amount of his argument, to satisfy the conscience of this body and It is in thislanguage-quite worthy of the attention thepeople, that it would be right to violate the pledge f gentlemen who are engaged in this proceeding: of the State, because we have the physical power to "And the guaranties, incidents and conditions specido it. We are about to lay the foundation of the gov- fled in the said 5th section of the last recited act, shall do it. We are about to lay the fou-nda~tion of the gov- extend to the loans made under this act." ernment anew-(is that the argument of the Chair- extend to the loans made under this at man?)-and being thus engaged in reconstructing the Thus, Mr. Chairman, you have placed the bonds organic law, we have the right, if we choose, to disre- now proposed to be taxed, and shielded them from gard our subsisting and pre-existing obligations to taxation, under the most solemn and deliberate legisthose whom we have seduced tolend us their money lation that a StIate can engage in. upon our faith and honor. I know, sir, (and who does not?) that all the ordi Mr. LOUDON (interposing, and Mr. M. yielding.) nary acts of legislation are capable of being repealed, I stated that the report did not propose to tax the State modified or changed. But one party to a contract bonds issued under the law of 1825, but, that it did cannot rescind or modify its terms. One party to propose to tax money invested in the stocks of Ohio- a contract cannot nullify a provision which imposes mioney invested in State bonds, as well as in everything an obligation upon himself. It takes the same power else. Now, I will ask the gentleman from Clark- to rescind or modify the terms of a contract, which it does he suppose, that, at the time these loans of 1825 required to make that contract. were negotiated, the Legislature had the most distant These are all elementary principles, and learned idea or expectation that their own citizens would ever gentlemen on the other side of the chamber are quite become the holders of these bonds? They certainly well acquainted with them. But I intend that the did not; and the clause which the gentleman recited people of Ohio shall have this matter brought to their was inserted, because it was supposed that their bonds consideration, when called upon to adopt this Constiwould be held by foreigners. I tution, which, upon its face, is about to violate a sol Mr. MASON (resuming.) I would like to know, Mr.; emn contract, which the State elntered into when it Chairman, how the gentleman from Brown (Mr..Lou- was comparatively poor and destitute ~of any income DON) come to the knowledge that the Legislature of adequate to the construction of the works it had un1825 did not expect any of the citizens of Ohio to be- dertaken. 01110 CONVENTION DEBAT'ES-WEDNEsf)AY, D)EcEMI,E 11. I will muake a general remark with reference to the Constitution that the wisdom of man has ever yet attempts at legislation which are being made in our devised. Constitution. The experience of several days past, But the people would regulate all these matters as must have convinced every gentleman upon this floor, they should be, if you had confidence in them; but how very difficult, aid how very inapt it is to our po- you practically deny that they have the capacity or sition here, to be engaged in mere matters of legisla- the will to do so. But I confide in the people, that tion-legislating in detail-thus endeavoring to tie up they would send up representatives to execute their the hands of the Legislature, and manacle the people will; or if they- did not, they would recall the unof the State of Ohio. Heretofore this whole subject faithful servant, and send one in his place who has been confided to the General Assembly, under the would faithfully carry out their will. general grant of legislative power, without specifica- I tell you, Mr. Chairman, if the members of this tion of the kinds of pi operty to be taxed or exempted. body, instead of going about to instruct the people The General Assembly, with reference to a just policy, upon the principles of taxation, would he content to and a wise consideration of circumstances and expe- leave tlis subject where it has been left for more than diencies, in which, from time to time, the State has forty years, they would act with a great deal more been placed, have exempted certain property from tax- wisdom and prudence. For, the State has made proation; and doubtless, they will ever do so; or wheth- gress in the principle of taxation. Public sentiment er they do or not, it is still a question which may be requires it, and I am in favor of progress, until every always safely left with the people, to be disposed of article of property in the State shall be taxed, which by their representatives. ought to be taxed, and which can be taxed without My own view is, that we ought to leave this whole violating any principle of pledged faith or public matter to the discretion of the General Assembly. My honor. judgment is, that the whole report before us confers no We might tax the future bonds of the State; but new power; that the General-Asseinbly would possess for fear that the clause under consideration would the same power over the subject, if we were to strike be only prospective in its effects, the gentlenman over the whole report out of existence, and refuse to insert the way (Mr. RANNEY,) has offered an amendment any thing of the kind in the Constitution. No gen- which has been adopted, making it retroactive-emtleman upon this floor doubts this. The report, there- bracing all stocks now issued, or hereafter to be isfore, is an attempt, not to restrain the Legislaturefrorn sued. He was afraid that we sholld fail in the effort exercising the power of taxation, but to stimulate that to violate our faith, and therefore he has put it broadbody to exercise the power It is an effort to compel ly upoii the face of the report by his amendment, so the Legislature to subject every thing to taxation, that there can be no mistaking him.i. which is not specifically enumerated in the clause of I should be happy if we could agree to put into exemptions, thus establishing an unyielding rule, and tI shouldtititbeihapp only general granee to p tower, thereby prematurely mtaking provisio~ for all timle to th C1sittt * *nl geea rntfpwr thereby p atuly akin oisii for all time to. coupled with general prohibitions and restraints, come; leaving no le,,slatlve discretin-no margin for instead of attempting to cover the whole ground of the action of future General Assemblies, withreference leIislation. I wtmould rather we would consent to to a wise consideration of the circumstances and exi- legislate less. Look at all the details of this report, g~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~engistess' Lookafl thedti ls ofn tismeport gecies of their on times. as to the various kinds of property to be taxed. It is in this way we incur the danger of omitting Proceeding in this way, sir, you will make a book things which oughlit to be included, and of including which the people cannot unLrerstand, by reason of things which ought to be omitted; because it is im- the complexity of its various provisioni%, not always possible, at this time, to foresee the exigencies,of the in harmony with one another. Sir, there are no exfuture, which will arise out of its multiplied interests amnples of this kind of Constitutional legislation. and transactions It has already been referred to by the gentleman from The principle upon which the effort here is made Cuvahoga, (Mr. HITCICOCK,) that the Constitution of to restrain the power of the Legislature, and the peo- the State of Wisconsin has the whole of the matter ple of Ohio is a principle of distrust, and a want of of this report condensed into one and a half lines of confidence in the capacity of the people for self-gov- printed matter, and that good Demtocratic State has ernment. Gentlemen may reply to this suggestion been content with that provision, and I think their as often as they choose; but there the facts are. You course much wiser than that here proposed. dare not trust the people to regulate the question of But, Mr. Chairman, I know that my opinion is of taxation. You are afraid that they will not exercise no avail with you. I do not belo)ng t,o the samle po itwisely. Yo'u prefer your own wisdom. You have litical school with you. You have no confidence in greater confidecee in your own wisdom and skill than me, and I have no confidence in you, [Laughter,] so you have in the capacity of the people. You prefer there is a perfect reciprocity between us in this mat dealing out your own nostr.um'., though they should ter It may be that we both desire to advance the impair the health or take the life of the patient. best interests of the State of Ohio. I admit that The diff-,ence between a Constitution and a law gentlemen may well differ in regard to the means of is, that the one you can alter, amend, and adapt to advancing the public interest. There is scope and the varying circumstances of the day; but the other margin enough for honest differse nces of op+iiion, and you cannot change witliout g eat care and difficulty, i1 am bound to believe that there is no settled purpose involving a call upon the whole body of the people to do wrong. If gentlemen have determined amongst of Ohio. Aud I think, after the taste which they will themselves upoii pursuing a certain course. they cain have had of our five months session in Constitution not be diverted froni it, especially if thcir minds are making, at ani expense o f over a hundred thousand made up upon partisan principles. In that case they dollars, they will be slow to call another Convention. are bound by their allegiance t(o one another. They And it is worthy of the consideration of the people cannot, under such circumlstances, give the same that there is not a Constitutioii inl the thirty-one weight to argument which it uight otherwise have if States of this Union, that has unidertakeii to legislate the mind were not pre-occupied. It may be very well upon the subject of taxatioii, as it has been attempted to have the miud pre-occupied, hut not with fore lI1 this repoiw'. There is no example of any such gone conclusions orwith a pre-determiiiati'ii. thing in the Constitution of the United States —the Mr. Chairman: I do not believe we shall be able to best, wisest, and most perfect model of a written dispose of the report during the next month, either in 59 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11. and bringing about the state of things depicted bv my friend from Clark, when he took the assessor into the cellars, and kitchens, and chambers of the citi zen in search of the objects of taxation. But sir, yesterday, an attempt was made to exempt a small amount-say $100 worth of taxable property in the hands of every man, and how was it met? It was voted down. But, sir, it is urged here, that you can with propriety exempt the money of the citizen when it is invested in State Stocks, because not to exempt them would be a violation of law. Sir, there are a hundred laws upon your Statute Book that you violate every day. We are here for that very purpose. We are rubbing out the old Constitution and remodeling laws. Gentlemen talk about vested rights. Sir, there is no such thing as a vested right where it is found to operate against the interests of the masses of the pee ple. The great mass of the people have a vested right, and that is, the right of equality, that is the basis upon which our government rests; and the moment you depart from it, you depart from the great princi ple of free government. The hog-growers and the wool-growers of the State some years ago, held vested rights in this species of property, because you had never taxed them; and when you sold your l ands many years ago, you sold them with th e understanding that they should never be taxed more than aeill on the unIdred dollars. But when you proposed to alter these laws, you did not ask leave, neither of the hog growers and wool-grow ers, nor of me. You consulted only the public good, and considered whether it was demanded by the re pnblican principle of equal rights. Neither will I ask those rich bond-holders, who have invested their thousands in that species of property, whether we shall tax them. We have come up here to remodel the fundamental law, and hence it is obligatory upon us to do what is right in the matter. When a proposition is made here to exempt the war man's hundred dollars worth of property, no voice is raised upon this floor, pleading his cause; but there are enough who will stand up and say it is all wrong to tax the moneyof the milionaire. Sir, if God spares my life, I will go before my constituents with my re'corded vote in favor of taxing every species of prop erty in the State of Ohio-my own with them. The property in the city belong to the city for taxa tion; but, sir, I am told that there is a church in this city owning 160 acres of land adjoining the city, and enjoying the rents at a large profit, which property is measureably exempt from taxation; and so it is, in all probability with other churches. Mr. ARCHBOLD (interposing.) I have myselffelt some sympathy with those who are opposed to taxing churches, and turning them out to the officer of the law, to sell them to the highest bidder. But, if that be so which the gentleman from A uglaize has learned -if it be true that there is a church in this city, own ing 160 acres of land exempt from taxation, I say, in stantly, that it is an abuse; and I, for one, am unwilling to tolerate it for a single moment. - Mr. SAWYER resuming. A sympathy for the exemption of churches has been started in this body by the gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. A~ac~oLn.) H~e asks, Will you sell these churches under the hamnmer? I answer, Y'es sir, if their members think no more of them than to allow them to be disposed of. Yes sir; far quicker than I would sell the feather-bed or the corn of a poor woman. Far quicker. I am informed, :b~y good authority, that one of the Baptist churches in this city, owns the 160 acres of land to which I have referred. commnitee of th e w hol e, oerin the hconvention, unle ss it is done by the power of the rule which c uts o ff de b ate; and I s hould have no objection to that; for I d e sire very muc h to g et along mor e rapidly than we do. I had hoped that the Chairman of t he standing com mittee would not have been so tenacious, after all that had been said, as to insist upon the wh ole report: but that h e wo ul d hav e been contented with fewer provis ions, which might be embraced ill a singl e section: so that the whol e subject might hav e been disposed of in conform ity with t he ex ample of all the States of the Union, and the model furnished us by th e fath ers of the revolutions rer- t he f ram ersi in of the Constitution of the Utnited States. We would then have a wise p olicy, which would permi t the p ublic sentiment to s ettle down upon whatever shall best promote the interests, the honor and the happiness of all. The people only want unshackle d hands, and uma nacld feet ana l imb s, that t he m ay exec ute their own will. Will you take the responsibi lity of saying to the people of Oh io, "We will put vo'u upon a prorastian bed stead, and l op off thos e legs w hic h app en t o be too long for th at bedstead, and o those which happened to be to o short, must b e stretched to the requisite length. It will do you good. A little mortification of the body w il l be good for the mind." This is tall wrong, in my judgment; and, with these remarks, I shall submit to be governed by the action of the major ity. I can live under the old constitution, or th e new, as c ontentedly as any man; k now ing that w e-are all embarked in t he s a me vessel; that we all have a commo n interes t i her safety; and, mo re than all, that we ae a all d estined for the same haven. Mr. M ITCHELL. I acknowle dge the applicability of the gentlemanf's remark, that we are all going to the same place of accountability. I beg my venera ble friend to remember that that accountability is to b e be fore on e who ha s commanded us emphatically "to do justice." I commepld this admonition to th e gentleman himself, that he mav prepare his justifica tion before the people, for repea ting a law which af fords protection to t he poor man, whilst he denounces the injustic e o f a proposi tion to repeal a law which gives protection to the capitalist. I ask the gentle man from Cl ark, and others who act with him, to address themselves o ththis proposition, and show us by s ound reason and correct principles of equality, how it can be entirelyo jus t to repeal t he law which expressBy protects the poor m an's littl e s upply of comforts, for his helpless, and, perhaps, suffering family, an d still would forbid you to repeal the law, affordingprotection to your millionaire, oni his immense, and, in most instances, useless or injurious hoards. Convince me of the justice of this strange discrimination, and I can listen to the gentleman when he talks about following fore-gone cnclusions; but until he shall satisfy my mind upon this subject-he may talk to eternity, and I will, 1 must vote against him so deeplIy is my mind convinced of the iniquity of this gross discrimination. Mr. SAWYER. I am one of those who are not willing to exempt from taxation but very few species of property, and before we complete this constitution, I desare to have a clear opportunity to record my vote' upon this proposition. You voted yesterday against exfempting a certain species of property in the hands of every man; which was wrong. B~ut I have just as much right to ask th at my farm shoulld be exempted, or any property in which I have invested money, as you have to ask for the exemption of a church. A church, in the abstract, is no more to be exempted, than a barn or a warehouse. They are all good in their places,: But, by these exemptions, you are throwing the burden of taxation upon farmers, mechanics and laborers, 60 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11. Mr. ARCHBOLD. Is it not taxed? his most accomplished minister all the opportunities within Mr. SAWYER. I know nothing about it; and I our power lor the successful prosecution of the important ~~~~~~~~~care less. ~duties of his mission. care less. Mr. GROESBECK, (in his seat.) It is taxed, Therefore be it Resolved, That a committee of five mem Mr. SAWYER. I do know that this property is bers be appointed by the President to wait upon the Hon. Mr. S~~~~~~~~~~~~AWYR.I dnothttiprpryiA Bicv, and tender to him and his suits seats within the taxed partially; but it would be put upon a far differ- her of this convention during their sojourn iii'eatthisn they. ent footing, if it was not sub'ect to any exemnption, eat footing, if it was not subject to any exemption, Mr. GREEN, of Defiance, moved to lay the preammore than a farm, a mill, or a clothing establishment- ble and resolutiononthe table; but immediatelywith But, again: those of our citizens who have money drew the motion for invested in State bonds, have purchased them at from Mr LAWRENCE, who said: It must be apparant 30 to 50 cents on the dollar; and gentlemen say, It tax them0 ie t wil d the ia vnlue. Bt If to every member, that the adoption of this resolution, you tax them, it will reduce their value. But I am ,y... ~~~~~~or one of a similar character, is but an act of courtesy not so much influenced by such a consideration as to which isdue from us, not only to the distinguished be swerved from my adherence to what I esteem a cor- idividual who is now a peace mission to our counrect principle: and why should gentlemen take a more try; but it is due also as a testimonial of our regard lively interest in the price of stocks, than in the price for the high character of his most beneficient Soverof wheat, or pork, or farm-land? of wheat, or po. or fa.. eign. This gentleman comes to us from a foreign Upon the subject of my hard-money propositions, country, and is now passing through the United States, I have but a word in reply to my worthy friend from for the purpose of examination into our improvements Clark. I will not, however, travel out of my way to in the arts and sciences, and the general workings of speakpartculaly, a thi tim; butwhenthatsub-in the arts and sciences, and the general woknsof speak particularly, at this time; but when that sub- free government. The object of this resolution is to ject shall come up, I will show my friend, by data not give him all the advantages in our power to prosecute to be disposed of easily, that the people of Ohio have the duties of his mission with success. His mission solemnly decided in favor of a hard-money constitu- is emphatically a peace mission; and coming to us tion. I take the decided majority of democratic mem- from a foreign government, whose protection to the bers sent up into this body, as strong evidence of this. Hungar ian refugees entitle them to the thanks of all And at the last election'we elected a Governor scarce- the friends of freedom, and establishes tLe fact of the .y s 2.. aecornds tof freedon, ind histadlherencAe fat of the ly second to any man, in his adherence to this prin- progress of freedom in the old world. I hlope the reciple: and a sterling anti-bank commissioner of Public solution will be adopted as a mark of our cordial reWorks. We went before the people, and spread our spect, not only for the power that has sent the Hon. banners, marked with letters as plain as the Sun; andly minister, but as a our opposers ceased not, neither upon the stump nor B here, asther friensdly miniter, but as a through the press, to urge the question upon the peo- Mr HUMPHr EVILLE. I vill not vote against pie, and tell them, that, If we succeeded in electing our the proposition but I am sorry it has been offered. If Governor and Commissioner, it would be received as th ion, but I am sorry it has been offered. If conclusive evidence that the voice of the people wans Ithis distinguished stranger is in our country for the conclusive evidence that the voice of th e people was purpose of witnessing the operation of our free instiin favor of hard money.ss i With reference to our free soil friends, they voted, tutionsourfree-and-ea sy mode of doing business,-I I sup p o s e, fr tr o n, bcould wish that the matter had been left open; so that, I suppose, for their own candidate; and, because the if the stranger saw fit to visit the Convention, the offidemocrats had not a majority over both whigs and c ers of the Convention, by una nim ous consent, and free-sellers, it is claimed'that there was no decision ofth v, the people upon this subject. But, I th ink dc ill of without any bluster, might have tendered seats within the f~~~~~~~~ pe p will Ad the bar to himself and suite, just as they would have ge nerall y find that t he leaders of the free soil party I tendered a seat to any other distinguished individual. are hard-money me-a. Although, I confess, I have s not counted the votes with a rect reference t thi Then, in this particular, he would have seen what matter. ~ really is the working of our institutions. But, as it is, we are proceeding more in accordance with the cus ar. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga. I wish to inform toms of other coutries not so free as ours. the gentleman from Auglaize, that, so far as free-soilers are concered, all those who call themselves hard- Mr. TAYLOR. I simply wish to submit one con money men, voted forJudge Wood, whilst those whose sideration to the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. love for free-soil and the freedom of their race was LAWRENCE.) It is this: Whilst I concur with him ahead of their hard-money propensities, voted for Mr fully as to the objects of the preamble and resolution, Smith; and thev were not hard-money men. I shall vote for the proposition from another consid Mr. EWART. 1 profess to know something about eration. The Convention has' heretofore denied the the Baptist denomination, and I wish to correct a granting of equal rights to any but the Anglo-Saxon statement which has been made here with reference to race, and I shall vote for this proposition as a cheerthe Baptist church in this city. I state that there is mg indication that the body has overcome its prejuno Baptist church in this city. owning 160 acres of dices against color. [Much merriiment.] land. There is no Baptist church in this city, which Mr. MITCHELL, (in his seat.) I shall vote for to my knowledge, owns any land. the proposition, but not upon that hypothesis. Mr. SAWYER. My information was from a gen- The resolution was then agreed to, and the Presitleman of this city.g dent nominated Messrs. Lawrence, Smith of Warren, Mr. DORSEY, next obtaining the floor, upon his Hunt, Larwill, and Green of Ross, to serve as the motion, which was agreed to, the committee rose and Committee of Invitation. reported Progress. And then, upon the motion of Mr. LAWRENr,)E AMIN BEY. which was gareed to, Mr.- LAWRENCE moved the adoption of thefol- The Convention took a recess till 3 o'clock, P. M. lowing preamble and resolution: AFTERNOON SESSION. WHEsEAS, This Convention has learned that the Hon. AMIN BOY, Turkish commisissioner to the United States and The Convention rtsolved itself into a Committee of suite are 1:ow in this city, and wishing to show all proper re the Whole, Mr. LEADBETTER in the Chair, and spect for so distinguished a personage and for his most resumed the report of the Committee on Finance and liberal and beneficent sovereign whose noble treatment of the Hungarian Refugees has entitled him to the thanks of the friends of freedema throughout the world and to furnish ety of taxing burial grounds and Church property. I 61 , 1,, 6 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBRE,R 11. requisitions of their chatter the cemetery association are bound to apply all such excess to the suitable pre paration of the grounds for the purposes for which they were first purchased. These grounds need to be intersected with roads, vaults must be erected, persons need to be eemeployed to guard the premi ses, and the whole must be kept in repair, should be adorne d a nd improved, an d th e profits, if I mayso speak of the pro ceeds of'the transfer of these grange lots, are thus ap plied. As to what has been said relative to taxing churches and church property,I affirm the law to be-I know the law to be that church pro perty other than that upon whi ch th e church edifice itself stands, must be taxed. No longer ago than last year I was spoken to by the Auditjpr of this county with regard to the instructions lie hat received from the Auditor of State relative'to his levying a tax upon the ground occupied by the Ro manl Catholic Cathedral, a few squares from this Hall. T'he lot upon wihiohl it stands is somne two hundred feet in width by four hundred deep. We will suppose that the Cathedral occupies one half of this area, leaving two hundred feet square, which is occupied by the Bishop's House, but the entire amount of land is with in one enclosure. The instructions of the Auditor of State was that all the laniJ not occupied by the Cathe dral should be taxed-and it was taxed and the amount paid. So that gentlemen will find that Church proper ty is already taxed. Mr. HITCHCOCK. In addition to the remarks of the gentleman from Hami'to~,, I will observe that the instructions of the Auditor of State are, not only that the ground not absolutely occupied by the church, shall be taxed, but if any income is derived from the rent of any part of the church building, then the whole must be taxed. Mr. TAYLOR desired to ask the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. GROESBECK,] whether this was a public or a private enclosure for burying? Mr. GROEESBECK said it was like every other cem etery with which the city was surrounded. It was ap propriated for the burial of those who were willing to colnfortn to the requisitions of the association, by pay ing a certain sum for the right of burial there. Mr. REEMELIN observed, that the charter of the the Spring Grove Cemeterv was prepared ill CinicinI nati, and sent up to the House of Representatives. His recollection was, that the members from Hamilton county were exceedingly averse to its passage. The CHAIRMAN replied that the question was upon the motion to strike out the words, "State, and,,' in the second line of the third section of the report. Mr. DORSEY, being entitled to the floor, said, the little debate of this afternoon, to his mind, was addi tional evidence of the truth ot the princlple with which hie had endeavored to impress the committee on yester dav atternoon, namely, that it was better to leave a considerable discretion to the Legislature in the matter of taxation. For whenever the Committee had at te npted to scatn the subject particularly, they found that they Dot only ran into difficulties amongst themselves, but also, that the Legislature could not be suc cessfully accused of remissness in the matter of carrying out the wishes of the people ill this respect —but that they might be trusted w ith abundant safety, both as to the amount, and what specific objects o~f taxation lshould be exempted. But still he held that there were matters in connection with this subject, upon which it became the duty of this body specifically to express themselves in the Constitution. There were matters which-he would not be willing to leave to the discretion of the Legislature without certain specific guidance. He referred to the necessity for taxing those Mr. SAWYER desired to inquire of the delegates, or any one of them, from Hamilton, if he (Mr. S.) was correct in the remarks he had made this morning rela tive to the Cemeteries of this county. Mr. HOLMES replied that Spring Grove Cemetery, which was the most extensive burial ground in Hanul ilton county, was incorporated in 1845, and comprised an area of three hundred and forty acres. Of this amount one hundred and sixty seven acres was exempt from taxation. The balance was taxed in the same manner and to the same extent as farms or other land ed property. In 1848, forty acres of the Spring Grove Cemetery property, (which is located some four miles from the city of Cincinnati) was valued at twelve hun dred dollars, and the taxes thereon amounted to $6,40; in 1850 the tax amounted to $7,80. Mr. SAWYER. Some of these Cemetery lots have been sold at prices double and quadruple those of the original cost, and yet some gentlemen would continue this species of property free from taxation. It is well known that the lots in the valuable grounds near this city, known as'Spring Grove Cemetery' and which is one of the largest in the country, had been sold at a very large advance upon the original cost,and I presume this is the case with several cemeteries in the State. l am told that there is one at Dayton which is in a similarly prosperous condition. It seems to me sir, that they should go upon the tax duplicate in tile same mannei in which other property is placed there. ,Mr. EWART. I think it will be found, when gen tlemen investigate the matter, that the act of incorpor ation of the Cincinnati, Dayton and other cemeteries, that all moneys received from the sale of lots must be expended upon the cemetery grounds-in their improve ment and adornment, so that the owners of burial lots can receive no pecuniary benefits from their enhanced value. I must be al lowe d to say, Mr. CHAIR MAN, that gentle men of the oppo ite side, must be "hard pushed" for ground to stand upon, when they seize upon this subject of "church, and church yard" taxation as a party measure. Mr. BARNET of Montgomery, explained the sit, uation of the Dayton cemetery company. Citizens who associated together, in that case, for the purchase and laying out of decent and pleasant burial grounds, did so at a sacrifice of their pecuniary interests. A law of the association was that the original purchasers of the land, when it was sold out in lots, should only receive hack the amount of the original purchase and without interest. He could assure the gentleman from Auglaize that no person connected with the purchase an d management of that cemetery could receive a dollar of profit. . Mr. GROESBECK, remarked that the manner ii n which the cemeteries of this county were projected and managed was probably very much the same as in Dayton, Cleveland and other places. Take the case of the Spring Grove Cemetery which has been alluded to by the gentleman from Auglaize; in that instance the sieo pie of this city, becoming convinced of the great and pressing necessity for ample burial grounds-there being but few, and those of contracted and inadequate dimensions-went out a distance of five miles from the city for the purpose of securing another with an area more commensurate with the necessities of a great city like this. The land, now known as the Spring Grove Cemetery grounds was purchased for five hundred dollars an acre, and divided and subdivided into lots of fifty feet square, each; and surely no gentleman will consider that amount too great for the burial place of a family. I am Iree to say that these lots were sold at a considerable advance upon their original cost, but by the OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE SNsDAY, DECEcMBER 11 large amounts of money which the citizens of Ohio| had invested in public stocks. He had been prepared to hear gentlemen come up here and talk about preserving inviolate the faith and credit of the State; but he was not to be swerved, by such bug-bears, from what he considered to be the dictates of right atd justicl. Ho also held that the faith of the State should be preserved, and was as anxious with reference to this matter as any niember upon the floor. But he was not willing, for the sake of a word which had no meaning whatever, that the right of the people should be trampled upon, and great abuses tolerated. Gentlemen had made it a matter of conscience that the weatth of the citizens of Ohio should not be taxed, because the faith of the State was plighted to the land-holders, that their lands should not be taxed: but, by refusing to tax this portion of the wealth of the State, by an indirection, they showed themselves to he willing to increase the burdens upon these articles which were listed for taxation.'IT his was not the first time that he had seen gentlemen stand up before a deliberative body in this State, and plead for the privileges of the few against the rights of the many. It was upon the plea of a contract made with rich men, who have lived upon the interest of the State bonds, that this ex emption was claimed. He would ask whether there were not other contracts entered into by the State with the poor man, which should be held equally as inviolable? Had not the State of Ohio sold her lands to the poorman, giving him a title thereto; and in the progress of her railroads and canals, whenever she had seen fit, had she not taken these lands of the poor man, without asking his leave, rendering to him only such a return therefor as she deemed right and proper? Who then stood up to plead for the inviolability of that contract with the poor man? Aye, there were always men enough, whet the rights of the rich stock-holder were likely to be imperiled, to stand up and talk abtout preserving inviolate the faith of the State. But whenever the State saw fit to trench upon the rights of the poor man, few and far between were the advocates who would stand up for his rights. There was another question to be met upon this floor, and upon which he was desirous that the Convention should make their mark before the people; and that was, the right which a legislative body had to repeal the acts of ally legislative body which had preceded it. He held that it was the duty of the Convention to set forth their views clearly and unequivocally upon this subject. He held, in c(ommon with a large number of members, that the people, being the depository of all political power, any body of men, holding power dele gated from them, during the time they might hold such delegated power, it would be necessarily as broad and unrestricted as that of any body of delegates which had preceded them. As a matter of course,then,no legisla live body could so bind and restrain the people, that a succeeding legislature might not cast their restrictions to the winds. This was taking broad ground, but it was ground, which delegates here, as representatives of the people, ought to occupy. It was ground Which he was willing to occupy, and answer for the conse quence. It was true that the Legislature of Ohio, in the year 1825, did borrow a certain amount of money from cer tain rich men, to whom bonds were given; and it was specified in the law authorizing that loan, that these bonds were never to be taxed. The act of 1825 thus bound the State with reference to a very considerable portion, but not all, the bonds of the State of Ohio. But, what were the facts with regard to those bonds now proposed to be taxed within the limits of the State? As a general thing, these bonds were not pri-d marily held by citizens of the State. But even supposing this were not the case-(for he awas willing to take it upon the broadest ground) supposing that this loan were taken by citizens o f Ohio, and sup posing the same arrangement to have been entere d into be*tweenes eid the citizens of Ohio and the Legislature of 18 25; during the period of a quarter of a century-almost the ordinary life-time of man-these men have been resting at the ir e ase, and drawing their interest from the State, without bearing heir share ofthebur t~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~g,heniornn sun.aTe pofple bureawywiln dens of taxation which, as good citizens, they should have-borne. But now, after so long a time, when the burdens of taxation were bearing not lightly upon her citiwens, the State of Ohio was proposing to place upon her tax list these very bonds and he would as k if there could be any injustice in doing so? Had not these men already reapt an ample harvest of gain,? But, it was only proposed to tax the money invested in these bonds. There was more lifference between taxing the money invested in these bonds, and taxing the bonds themselves,than might at the first, meet the understanding. He happened to know something about the manner in which a portion of these bonds were held; how they had been accumulating;and how they stood in the'hands of those who heldtlhem at the present time. He knew that there were large amounts of State bonds, upon which our citizens were drawing a clear interest every six months, which were bought from the original holders at rates varying from forty to sixty cents on the dollar. Where, then, was the injustice of taxing such investments of mon ey? Our right to tax the money of capitalists invested in U. S. Stocks could not be successfllly contested. And, as for those other cases in which our citizens, who had bought up Ohio bonds, at rates far below their value, and had been for years drawing their reg ular semi-annual interest, without paying ally tax up on these profitable investments, it was an evil which the people demanded should be done away. These men had made profits enough —-a speculation suffi ciently lace il this matter; and theywereboundnow, by every ldea ofjustice, to come forward and pay their portion of the taxes of the State, like other citizens who receive the same protection with themselves. But, we had been told, that our unwillingness to trust this matter to the hands of the Legisature, re sults from a wantofconfidence in the peoplel. This however, was not the case; and the charge, he took leave to say, came with an ill grace from gentlemen who, in almost every political act of their lives, had themselves evinced t!he most unjustifiable distrust of the people. It was because of his abiding confidence in the people that he was willing to go before them wtih this most righteous measure. Heretofore, this question had been made to turn upon all equivocation with reference to the right of one Legislature to re peal the act of a preceding Legislature. But now when in this body we were called upon to do right, he would ask gentlemen to approach the subject in the true spirit of republicanism, and their scruples could not fail to vanish away like frost-work before the morning sun. The people were always willing to do right. So long as their bonds remained in the hands of the mhen to whom they were given, they were willing to stand' up and fulfil their engage ment. They had continued to grant them ex emptions from taxes for twenty-five years. But now circumstances were so changed that there was not a man upon this floor who would stand up and deny the abstract right of the proposition to place these ends upon the tax list. H-e would say, t~hen, that here was no man, cherishing that tralst and confi dence of the: people which he ought to cherish, who I I I 63 61 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECF'MCER 1 1. wn openly that this section was only the "stepping stone" e to the fourth section, by which Banking capital would be taxed. It was a step in the ladder of improvement. d He did not recollect the exact words of the Report, but Ss he was anxious that it should be so worded as to em ed. brace all stocks and securities. He hoped to see Bonds r. and United States Stocks brought within reach of that a section, and if it did accomplish that object lie would sf endeavor so to modify it as to have them included in ts its provisions. e Mr. HORTON wished to make a few remarks. He - was aware that the committee must now be weary of r, the djiscussion; but, as the question was one of very or great importance, he hoped to be tolerated for a few r. minutes. His object in moving to strike out two Y words of the second line of Sec. 3. namely, "States, rne and," was to prevent the Stocks of Ohio being taxed. h He had stated in substance, previously, that to tax er them would be, in the first place, contrary to public t faith, and, in the second place, opposed to sound poli cy. He also stated, (and it had not been controvert ed,) that the act of 1825, as well as subsequent acts, ts had pledged, publicly and solemnly, the faith of Ohio, R, that the stocks issued in pursuance thereof, should not be taxed. Those acts did not state, that such Is Stocks should not be taxed for twenty-five years, nor - during the continuance of the then generation, as is - argued by gentlemen, but was explicit in stating that e they never should be taxed. T he gentleman from g Clark, (Mr. MAsON,) had, with his usual ability, put n forward arguments on the same side that he, (Mr. e IIoRToN,) took. The gentleman from Clark (Mr. MAe soN) took another range of argument from himself, - and his arguments, no one from the opposite side had yet attempted to answer. e In the remarks submitted in the morning when his motion to strike out was made, he (Mr. HoEoTON) coin n fined himself to the question, principally, of Public t faith. Three gentlemen had spoken in reply. He t proposed to examine the grounds they had assumed in the discussion. The learned gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) 1 replied first; and what was the ground lie took? Did t he bring forward argumnent to show that he was right and the other side wrong? Did he array his fierce i and terrible logic, and crush, by force of reasoning, ) the arguments of his opponents in the discussion. t No, he did no such thing. Assuming to himself a 3 peculiar air; and speaking, ex ca'hedra, he pronoun ced all that had been said of the public faith of Ohio, r humbug! humbug!! humbug!!! Mr. MITCHELL rose to explain. He did not recol lect having used the word "humbug," but would ask if he had done so? Mr. HORTON replied in the affirmative. t Mr. MITCHELL. That being the casehe would stick to it. (laughter.) t Mr. HORTON resumed. Then he should have , some hope of the gentleman, (Mr. MITCHELL.) If he would stick to his opinions of to-day it would indi cate progress since yesterday. (Renewed laughter ) It was a fair inference, from what had fallen from the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITcHELL,) that, in his view, not only what had been said in regard to nublic s faith was a humbug, but that public faith itself was t a humbug; that the pledge of the General Assembly of Ohio, representing the people of Ohio, and record; ed upon the Statutes of Ohio, was a humbug! For himself, he (Mr. HORTON,) did not acquiesce in that opinion, and he had seen no proof that the people of lOhio entertained it. The gentleman fror) Knox, while addressing the committee, had asked him a question while he (Mr. H.) ! owas engaged in writing a reply to a telegraphic dispatch, would refuse to a dmit that the time had arrived whe this hing could b e d one without disgrace to th name of the people of Ohio. The gentleman from Cl ark, (M r. MASoN,) had tol them, that he h ad alway s been a democra t; and he wa so, while putting forth the arguments which'he use No one respected that gentleman more than he, (M1 DOREEY) did; but he fancied that he could perceive smile of irony on the usually placid countenance c that gentleman, and while listening to his argument he could not help exelaiming. to himself, "If this b democracy, from such good Lord deliver me." (Laugh ter.) It might be th at the action taken in this matte would make the people of Ohio "slow to call anoth Convention," as had been already stated. He, (M] DORSEY,) was not anxious that there should be an occasion for their immediate meeting in Conventio again. He should hope that they would make sue amendments as would seem best; and that whethe they were to assemble again or not, he trusted the they would not close the present sitting, before the had made some strong, and indelible lan'd-marks, b which -they who came after might know what wa Republicanism; that something should now be defined as the basis of democratic doctrine. But to resume. It was asserted that future bond might with justice be taxed, but not so with those al ready existing. That was the old song. It was ad mitting the right in the abstract but refusing to giw power to the people. If they -were worthy of being trusted for the future, what objection could there be i] applying the same rule to the past. The action of the people ought to be as free and unrestrained as th~ waves of the ocean; and not attempted to be restrict ed, or to say "thus far shalt thou go and no farther.' He was willing to trust everything to the good sense of the people. It had been further asserted by the gentleman fioro Clark, (and he may be right inl his assertion, at leas he, the speaker, would premise him to be so,) thai although ill its wisdom, the Convention might impose the tax, that there it would end-that there were pow ers above them, namely, the Supreme Court, to which tribunal, bond-holders would appeal, and thus, set aside the decision of the Convention. He was willin to concede that fact to the gentleman, alluded to, an: indeed would only be following up the course hitherto pursued by that Court. But even if the tax could not be collected, he would be in favor of its passing this Convention as a broad declaration of its integrity. The Judges of the Supreme Court had received their places at the hands of the people, and had sworn to support the Constitution; and he, (Mr. DORSEY,) hoped that their proceedings, (if any should be taken on the section under consideration,) would be made a test in the votes which would. be cast at a future election for Judges; and that men might be placed on the bench who would remember having sworn to support, not to subvert, the Constitution. It might be, (as already stated,) that not a single mill of this tax could be collected; nevertheless it would stand forth as a landmark, as well as an evidence of the intentions of this Convention. The infliction of such a tax was more a matter of principle than of dollars and cents, and as such he hoped_ to see it assented to. In Wisconsin they had provided for these matters, (as the Convention was informed,) in',a line and half of printed matter," but that could not be an argument for thire guidance, as the people of Wisconsin had not the same experience of thie evils as the people of Ohio. There, they had not men drawing support from the State wit'hout contribultinlg to its revenue, while here we have surftred fronil that cause, and seek for its rmvlb organic laws of the State. He wou~ld state plainly andl OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER I I. I pledge of the State for twenty five years, and beaing about to have a new Constitution-the public faith no longer require us to exempt these stocks from taxation. The answer is short. The State of Ohio, under the new Constitution, is the same Ohio as under the old. She has perpetuity of existence and obligation. He could not, therefore, understand the logic which absolved the State from engagements because they had been kept twenty-five years. The gentleman from Miami (Mr. DoRsEY,) shakes his head, implying that he does not consider it a breach of faith to do away with a contract in 1850 which was to run till 1856, or 1870. If there was any obligation in the matter-at all, moral or otherwise, it was certainly in force until the payment of the debt. Mr. RANNIEY. Should like to know what the original amount of those bonds was, and the amount now outstanding? Mr. HORTON could not at that moment answer the question. Mr. REEMELIN. The Report of the Fund Commissioners suggested the question as to how far the State was pledged for those bonds, and added their opinion that the faith of the State was not pledged to them at all. Mr. HORTON. The gentleman f r om Hamilto n is probablv correct. Mr IfEEMELIN made some remarks rela tive t o Bond-holdineg in the State of New York, which the Repo r ter di d not catch, a dding that in the State of Ohio the original Bonds could not be traced at pres ent, and consequently the State was made to appear to owe more than she had received. Mr. HORTON resumed. He had carefully examined the Statutes of Ohio relative to the issue of stocks, and found it difficult to arrive at a perfectly clear con clusion as to the question, are any of them excluded from the operation of the pledge of 1825 and 1839; he was, however, satisfied that it would not be in good faith to attempt (if it could be done) to exclude any from the operation of the pledge. The State should act in the same manner as an individual would do who had regard for his character, who would lean to the side of liberality. The gentleman from Miami (Mr.DoRsEY) did not fail to say a good deal about defrauding the poor man. Now if any person would point to him (Mr. HORTON,) any probable injury to the poor mall in consequence of the bad faith of the State, he would go as far as any one to prevent such a result. Neither did the gentleman from Miami (Mr.DORsEY) omit to do as was quite'customary to say a good deal, in a peculiar strain, of an "abiding faith" in the peo. ple, and implying that a portion of the members had no such faith. He (Mr. H.) could give a name to this practice which would truly characterize it, but he would not do it. He must, however, be pardoned for saying, that the practice neither consisted of fair argument nor good taste. For one he was as willing to trust the people as any one, but he was not willing to tempt then to break the solemn pledge of the law making power of Ohio' acquiesced in and sanctioned by themselves for a quarter of a century. He was not willing to ask the State of Ohio to do an act, which if done byj an individual to his neighbor, would, in the Judgment of all fair-minded men, be considered dis honest. Far be it from him to counseldishonor toethe people of Ohio. He desired to mention another of the positions of the gentleman from Miami, (Mr. DeRstY.) That gen tleman said in reply to-the gentleman from Clark (Mr. MAsON) that he (Mr. D.) would authorize in the Con stitution, the taxing of these stocks, even if the Su preme Court of the United States would interfere and and dema nded a catigorical answer, yes or no. Perhaps I did not reply to the question clearly, certainly my reply di d n ot plea se the gentleman from Knox. And t hat gentleman at onc e charges him, with n ot being candid. It wa s a trick-a habit of that gentleman (falling a rgum ent) to get up, in h is place, and say, in answer to his opponent s, a nd in a way peculiar to himself, ) am holier th a n thou, stand aside The question put to him by that gentleman, was to whether a certain statute was repealable or not? Suppose it was, what h ad it to do with th e argument? wh e n the law was passed, t o wh i ch he refers, the Legislature did not intend that it should not be repealed, nor did any one malke a co ntract under its provis ions, and if such were the case, does wrong doing in one case justify it in anoth er? W hat says the gentleman f rom Knox? Is that humbug? The gentleman from Knox (Mr. MITCHELL) ha d expresse d sympathy with the poor man who (he asserts) suffered bythe repea l of that law. D id any on e h ear it said in Convention that it was right to oppress the poor man? No, they never had, and the y n e t ev e r would,from those whomthe gentleman styles as his(Mr. HORTON'S) compeers. But when gentlemen are found in that assembly to state that they were not bound to keep faith with the rich man, he could only believe t hat the doctrine would become so progressive that, dadbye and bye they w ould not consider themselves bound to keep faith with any one, poo r or rich. He, (Mr. HORTON) di d no t impute such motiv es t o any one, he scorned such a course; dealing as he did with argume n ts not motives, he reasoned from what men said, y i an d did, and did not go behind that to impute motives. Mr. DORSEY remarked that th os re were his deductions from what had been said. Mr. HORTON [assenting] resumed, afterthe gentlem an from Knox came th e gentle man from Auglaizea (Mr. SAWYER,) in regard to him he must be allowed to say he failed to he ar anv t hing like argument in what he sa id. Yet, fie couid say in all sincerity, in the words of the gentleman from Clark [Mr. MASON,J that he liked that gentleman. He did not assume ill his manner to say, I thank God that I am not as other, men. He did not assert that every one who differ' from him was actuated by improper motives as some gentlemren did. And he wou ld say, with the gentle. man from Clark [r. Mr. MASON,] that he liked the gentleman [M'r. SAWYtEt,] bu t he d id not h peliCe hi s opinions. [laughter.] But the gentleman from Auglaize [Mr. SAWYER] dealt not in arguments but in dogmatic asser tioens. Hle says that the question is the old one of vested rights and that there is no right that these stocks should be exempted from taxation. This is the asser tion. He has ineither proved its correctness nor inval idated by fact or reasoning the opposite view, nor did he attempt it. Let us examine this position. If there is no vested right in the Stockholder, that these Stocks should be exempted from taxation, by what reasoning do you establish his right to demand that the Stocks them selves should be paid? The reasoning that denies the one must necessarily deny the other. They both rest on the same basis the solemn guaranty of a statute of Ohio. Can the gentleman from Auglaize avoid this conclusion? I thiitlk not. Heewould next reply to the gentleman from Miami (Mr. DoasEY,) and ill order to simplify his remarks he would repeat that, in the morning, he confined him self to the question of public faith in reference to the stocks already issued, and of pubJie policy in refer ence to those which mnight hereafter be issued. The argument, in reference to the Supreme Court of the United States hle would leave to the able gentlemanI from Clark (Mr. MAsoN.) He would then reply to the gentleman from Miami, whom he understood to say, that having kept the 65 66 r OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 1 1. a ernment rests. To attempt to part with this power - would be striking a blow for its own destruction. 1 Upon the hypothesis then, sir, that the Legislature can never have the power to pass irrepealable laws, ih e put it to the venerable gentlemana from Clark, (Mr. i MASON,) that sound-headed old lawyer, and he used the expression in no disrespectful sense, but in a t complimentary one. Sir, he would put it to him to say what force there was in any law passed without - authority? He must answer now. How then can a , law, bearing the interpretation sought to be put upon this one, be binding on the successors of those who framed it? He for one claimed that it would amount r to notlfing; for their not having the power to pass I such a law renders the enactment a perfect nullity, i and that it was so, was his (the speaker's,) firm con viction. What was a Government formed for but to enact just laws, establishing right and justice? But would any gentleman assert with sincerity that under our constitution government could make laws which mi,ght not be repealed by theirsuccessors, whereby iiin justice and opoppression would(lbe fastend irrevocably upon us and our posterity forever? The thing was arguments. He would go on the hypothesis that jus tice demanded, that the public good required the repeal of the laws referred to, and that the public voice seconded this demand, and there his doctrine L was and ever had been, that the public voice should L be at once attended to. He then dwelt at considera ble length on the injustice of making a distinction too absurd to dwell on. The gentleman from Meigs (Mr. HORTON,) did not attempt to contradict this position. He would go on the hypothesis that justice demanded, that the public good required the repeal of the laws referred to, and that the public voice seconed this demand, and there his doctrine was and ever had been, that the public voice should be at once attended to. He then dwelt at considerable length on the injustice of making a distinction in taxation because of the mere evidence of the in vestment, and illustrated his arguments by supposing ! that two persons had loaned to the State $10,000 each, the one on mortgages while the other was on State stock, both being led to believe at the time of investment that they should be free from taxation. Now, with what justice could the State levy a tax on one while it passed by the other? Or where was the authority, upon any principles of justice, or just policy, for any such discrimination? And if the Legislature attempted to fasten upon our people any such policy it was over-stepping its authority, and acting most unjustly, inequitably. The question at issue involved the people of this State to the extent of fifteen millions-perhaps to double that amount. He was anxious to have the laws so framed that no man should suffer injustice. The marked difference between their Government and that of the country from which their forefathers had originally come, was that the Legislature here was prohibited, not only by express declaration, but by the very nature of our institutions, from making laws creating a privileged class in the community. That was the characteris tic feature of their Government, providing, as it did against any invidious distinction, and carefully designed to prevent insidious movement on the part of those in power, whereby such distinctions might be created and perpetuated. The State was bound not - only to pass good laws, but also to repeal those which were not goods Those which were found to bear h a r shly, unjustly, o r inequitably on any portion of her cit izens, andtnot be led away by the howling of a few ambitious as well as avaricious individuals, who, while gloating over their unreasonable exemp prevent any tax being collected. It could do no hard in the Co tto. Henssr did no t accord w ith t he gen tleman in opinion. He could not sympathize with the gentleman in being willingr to do anything con traveyinig the Constitution of the United States, which as members of this Convention we had taken a solemn oath to obey and to protect. The doctrine sounded strange to lcis ear, strange indeed. He could not agree with the gentleman. Gentlemiieni would act in this matter according to their own views of duty; for him self he mu-ist vote to strike out the words as moved, and raise his humble voice to sustain the plighted faith and fair famie of Ohio. Mr. MITCHELL said that the prowsioufs made b the Legislature of the State on former occasions, an: likely to be carried out by the present, prevented him from occupying much of the time of the Convention in defending himself from the gross scurrility which had fallen froin the iindividuls who had alluded to him. The people of Ohio would judge between the gentleman from Meigs, (Mr. HORToN,) and himself, as to whose breast such feelings as those imputed to him were likely to dwell; the world would also judge from their present appearance and demeanor, and from their subsequent actions, to whom most justly such epithets applied, and with that consolation he would rest under the load of scurrility, and gross abuse heaped upon him by the gentleman from Meigs. His acts should speak for his character, and he would endeavor to outlive the effect of indecent imputation utterly unibecomninig this place; and would, at once, proceed to the matter under consideration, as the only legitimate subject. The gentleman from 2Ieigs, (Mr. HORTON,) told them that no person on that floor had recourse to argument, (he did not in clude himself, no doubt,) but he (Mr. MITCHELL,) would leave the world to judge, on seeing that gen tleman's speech in print, lhow far he had had recourse to legitimate argument. It was not by drawing, sound conclusions from matters of fact that that gentleman sought to inform them, but simply that his ipse digit should be received at all times as the end of all controversy. He would have the laws of this State like those of the "Medes and Persians, which changeth not." It was on that absurd princi ple that the majority of the so-called arguments of the past fifteen or twenity sears had been based. Certain acts are unrepealable, utterly unrepealable. This is the cry. Such arguments were altogether un-American, going, as they did, to establish the principle that your Government may confer upon a certain portion of the people of the State high and valuable privileges, not to be enjoyed by the rest, secured, too, by unchangable laws, no difference how imperative may be.the demand of justice for their repeal. Why, the power of this Convention was for ever taken away, if such was to be the interpretation of the statute. Would it not be regarded as most presumptuous for them of the present day to make laws as mere statutory enactments, with the express declaration that they should never be chan-ed by their successors? It would be ridiculous in!le extreme, and no san{e man would defend so insane an aet, unless his judgmenert and reason were utterly blindedby some fatal prei udice. Where, sir, within the provisions of our Constitution, could any pretext be found for passing any such law? And certainly, sir, such power is clearly fo~rbidden by the foundation principles of Government itself. How can Government anlswer the ends of its creation but by retaining to itself at all times the power to pass such lawrs as may be necessary to secure justice and equality amongst its ml-emrbers. This is, sir, the broadest an'd deepest foundation stone on which the fabric of Gov OHIO,C,ON-VENTION, D-E!3-A,,E-$ t' 6 ion, otaied,pehap, b indvetece n te prt ~~ ELIN Food HUMPHRF,,ILLF, were, annouaaed ln~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~rsti~ice ths ahns constitute nyteeiJl ~ on pingoh yl is~andifl,oi-undepeihtto t keeping unternished the ~~~~~~~~~f.i' Lih tt,an r rsa o aygeat lngth off tir-edr ud-pton the atz,,tamed could never be dene by fol~~~lowing th.e p olcy hoalt -ihe fO,agreonto th ue hi advocted. y thegentlmen o~theopposte sie of elt phvicyo alinabltyhospeakt.owithb ha Upon motion ~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~of. o e onieain nmealth.ouhteaen sented~~~~6h vli"andisic ppoitin which p xeriasthe strin Comm~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~it-tee riepo'' et wh~e f eate would beqie him to iibhere t Mr. GRESUEC~explined te nat~re o arrage.. sill; e did not eiensitotooretofloth mens nadeby he ou'g Mnds~erantlo ibrry xamle f oher, ad eten th rage tuhs r. c Asd~tion would retract anything.which ~~~~~~migtb osdrenae. Hewssueta i40don,o ,h rai a fteState nd ton" an~dv',ancie8 fra S~~~~~~~~~~~~'ILT SEON ofY Rs posible,h didnt, interet nd,iswlae esi h T~~~~~~~~~~~~~"r~aumi 1)ec. l~ 18leng. utheac off thismgeaan import nt, tbe.'~ The Conventi~~~~~~~~~on me urun.tdounmet AC-otlfnirly tof theexrieoouowwhm' ad Prayer by the Rev. Mr. M~~~~~~~~~~l'hcH e.L. c,apis, orhtothe injoyienty of an e uniitedan.i Said petitions were severally referred to t~hie eec tence ofththgela, whcisntfolye f~a Mr. HUMPIIE~ILLE ofered lor doption t but whic w ll alo,ntor a er'ainV brextn,gf vr Rne1~d, That the Sergeant-at. 4r~ be,Oandb shrb cosrc. Ae sir i,tis'ore bining F r if On motin of Mr i,EEMEI~ theresoluton was own thedoctrie, tht';in'hvag o ~p of th peope's srv~ants, bu —t "probably by d,esgigaug,~ iePeieta osiuigsi niite avarce3 ough theproectionl of the,State to -their Mr ofLci,ofeefoadpintefi own eclusie benfit.He. looked —upDon S3t~e ~e~urit'oigYs~to, hc a are o ties as,s mer-e evidenc,,es of the a, mount.of"w~ealth* bo- R8, e,ta omte o ieb pone ~i note of.hand, hoseixn, ossadlns invetouptthtinofisaormt,'ntennhQ eaph do soe tha twe.theomittee reor whatitt'a e ad oil VIdeunce~ of'the amount of, wealth thelinr,,o,w'nersmyhvj edneI h rmi accumulated. Th'rs"a,anuc' r: ~S,o ik diferen-cher cnistmaed ithe-re jaudgmhent s o'he soveriserfintoaConit-t of hji0'- a coslue h odfihadhnrof the State. Ile' ordir of the d#,M LEA ~TRIn te Cair injstlt-asy a~ndeitha fidelie dichrgin tehe' reat o~h-,vtin o, ruopteanedetprosdb r jets of treation,;, namlth passgofusadyHO'O, srkfrmtescdlieotethr eq~kl,,laws for.th'e- gvrmnof Ithe,- peopl, b h et'nofRpr roeo h Mjrt' h operatin of -whiXch th lsinsadbeniefiso, -'tnigCmite nF neadTxto,te emment, ma~y be equallydsesdt al adItbr-wrsSttan. Assocaion, tofclikae -racne,r be~ s tothledray f,h keIngtiuntionist he sm tm t akn occaso tpa nwudr tewhlgrudpeetdbth et favors. ". bat1e 1gd Mr-c ARHOul ), sai that whieonthat sbecthlsl,adoel,adt altig irr tr]itnto b nido ue efl~s f ther woras of th miget imon tnetotmebr ofthCo-oaniprtvduyasammeoftihoy n vention, and pfel Raife - ree-that,teIsiuo a the wt odsr rws htayproa plcto thanks of evrmn'brpeent.,'solsb ae pyigfrThe Cnetioiinsertio of a cltdause il-the new oioivrselwtq.lybnii n o nato stitution, porohib-iting the, Ge neral Assemnbly fromiyee aaont ha nenhc ehl o passing an laiw, leg6al'izing the tir~rafc, in' siriuu et nti seil;,n hl ec'vytepo liur. Caiin nwbfre'u into the nonttto ofOh, F. Crey,and sev-enty-fv citizens frm Hamillt-on iena" a o h oeneto h epeo h couny, uon te sae subject. Sae nalftr ii,w r o'ofre h xs fo~llowing resolution:',ecnrltevr ntuen ~ aeud~tki ~ instruetnid to comriuni-cate with the Seeayo tt,anwilloinoteCstlaooheUid tb procre ix epie ofthe,-G-nral ~Laws -of,,this State, for; theiudrwhc,t oe ~',oronSaehdi m~em~bers of,,this C-onv~wtin.. oignanowsisxitneweshlthr'4Id iap.I to a Select Committee of Two;adMss.,r,itithsprmlawf'eladaytngi i 6 67, 68 OHIO'CONVENTION DEBATS-THIJRsDAY, DECEMBER' 12. cosiuin or law of th Stts otecnrr adt ht ebleeo htw o yw ,y'gard to what we believe or what we do. Away w.t' this idle attempt to draw distinctions where none exTie ist, and treat the real question as if it were, as in fact n it is,really before us-a proposition to tax the thing ita- self, and not the mere representative of the thing. I s, hold inmy hand the second voime of Peters' R-eps - of cases decideO in the Supreme Court of the United States, and propose to read, with the indulgence of ,i -.the committee, from the case of — 7: as ieWeston, et al vs. The City Council of Charleston. t-In nError; p. -449.4:9 t~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ o The facts of the case are as follows:,ll On the 20th of February, 1823, the city council of of Charleston passed,"an ordinance to raise sup lies t- for the use of' the city of Charleston for the year 1-23. n The ordinance provides "that the following species of d property, owned and pos,essed within the limits of o, the city of Charleston, shall be sblbject to taxationia in 'e the manner and at the rate confonrmable-to the -rovisnf ions hereafter specified; that is to say all personialesn tate, consisting of bonds, notes, insurance stks six s and seven per cent stock of the United States or- other - obligations, upon which interest has been or,will be received during the year over and above the interest on srwhich has beenorwill be received during the ear or emwover and above the initerest, which has been paid tre (funded stock of this state'and stock of the incorporaC ted Banks ot this State, and of the United States; Bank e excepted) twenty-fiVe cents upon every hundred dol lars,".' The constitutional Court'of Souith Carolina by a maa jority of the judges decided in -favor of the constituf tion ality ofthe ordinance.- The case thenwent up to L the Supreme Court of the United States in Error, to ~ test the validity of the,ordinane. r In the course of the argument the dissening' opia ion of Huger. justice was quoted. To which Mr. Green c referred gentemen as ccntaining an unanswerable , argument-on the constitutionality of the ordinance. r He would only read the recapitulation of the objections to the tax. - t 1. Because tax upon the Stock of the,Dnited States, ! eo nomine, is a tax upon the credit of the United StStes, 2. Because the credit of the United States was,,not a subject for taxation by the States, anterior to the adSo foption of the onstitution. - The credit of the United States being a result of the establishment of the gov arnment of the United States, and the Constitution has given no new powers ito the State government., 3. Because the objects of taxation by the State gov, ternment are not diminished by wi'thholding from the power of taxing the Stock of the United States, as the money borrowed by the United States is immediately returned, by disbursements, to the people ef the diffe ent States. 4. Because it renders the general governmeht -dependent upon the discretion of the State government, for one of its essential means of accomplishing the -purposes for which it was established,result at variance iwith one of the principal objects of the Coilstitation, which was to render the general government, indepen dent of the pecuniary aid of the State governments; and lastly because it is a violation of the obligation of a contract..... -Butturn we now to the opinion of the Supreme Court of the United S~tates, as delivered by Chief Jus — etice Marshall-the greatest judicial mind that has adorned the bench of any countryin any age-at page 404 he, says: " If the Statesand corporations throughSout the Union, possess the power totax a contraect fo the.loan of money) what shall arrest this: principle -in!.its application to every other contract? Wlhat Nmews-ure can government adopt whl4eh wiln not be fexpos~'a to its influence? ~ -' constitutions or laws of the States, to the Cen-tra notwithstanding. /; X The oblid gatl'ons of th is higher law o f wnhi& E hap spoken requires that before we act definitively- upo any of the propositions to be iincorporated in this con stitution, weWshould,examine:into their provisions ard s ee whe ther they do not conflict with -its con mands. p - s as c - i e In regard to the second propositions in the e section as it was reported byi t he comnmittee, reqt ring a ctaxt r whc eareorevs posssd M -r. n Caimn Bta tunwto be laid pno d th e bonds of the United States, the firs inquiry i s: Is it prudent-is it wise-' is f-it -discreet -t establfsh a provision in our organic law which shal come in direct conflict with the fundamental Ia~w a th Union? If it is so, there islan end of the.arg u men t? All thatremains is a trial o f'strecngt betwee the two governments. Nor is a question of.this kin( one of mer e pat y, or one i ll which the dog mas or hprineipses of p arty can, in any- ma nner n, concerned; and:'i tas anot a little a matter o surprise yesterday, when the vote on the metio of the gentleman from MeigS'(Mr. HORTON) wax take-to strike out of the section under consid eratioh the words'and United States"t-o see uon one side-in favor of'striking out-only twenty-seven or eight gentlemhen of one political caste, while upon the other,:the large majority of the'democracy of;the Convention rose en masse to Oppose it.;: I repeat it, sir I was surprised. And w hhy-wyFwas it soot Is there any' thing of a party political'character, in the simply le al auestion now, before us? Is there any thin partisan in taxation?-any thing that is to affect party lines now or hereafter? If any opinion or sett 6t opinions is wise, is just, is correct, is patriotic for one side Or one party it is so for the other. Yet gentlemen argue and vote in favor of their views because they say they. are democratic. Sir, let gentlemen proposea constitutional measure —oune that shall carry out, in good faith, the intentions atd solemn- pledges of the State, ani-d:I.care not for party. Satisfy me that your plans and- principles are suchas can be honestly en tertained, not only in view of sounid policyvand good conscience, but of the paramount law of the laild, or I cannot'go with you, even though you invoke,my as sistance, in the high and holy name of Democracy.' So far as theright of the States, to tax the stocks of the Union is concerned, the question res adjudiceata. The Supreme Court of the United States, after full ar gmnent and deliberation, has solemnly/ settled the veryindentical proposition. Yes, sir, in evey respect, the case y es u-on all fours with,the:question before us, But before I proceed to call attenitonito the decis ion I desire to notice'the attempt of gentlemen to avoid the constitutional difficulty by drawing a distinction between the power to.tax the thing itself, and the money which the thing represents. Bythis lame atte.mpt,at anevasion, gentleinen seem to concede the want of power to ax thebond s themselves. Tbey] areQonly seeking, they say, to tax the money investedl in their purchase. It may be that I have not coiprehended this very nice distinction, announced so oracularly by the gentlem. from'Knox;, (MAL. Mi~HSLr. and Miami (Ml:. DensF-Y) iHe rather thoughtit arose from t~he difficulty of conveyinganl idea to others, Of which we are ourselves possessed. Mr.,Chaiirman;: there is no differences. Lerner gentleme quibble bn: a quaestion of so -much impor~tanc~e. -if you wfil insert a c~lause in-fhe constitution in effect, commanding the General Assembly to tax-the stocks'of the Untited States;7 have Xh courage:to avow it boldly, ego nomine.: In-this bdy, there should be no quibbling-no shuffilinn Le it [nt besaid that we/attempted_ -to: do that; indiecty,Whih we dare niot' do directly,~nothingshould lE left in a state of uncertainty} whether in We, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURsDAY, DECEMBFP 12. r,,But it is unnecessary to pursuethis principle throughd its diversified applications to allthe conItractsi, and all the various operations of the government. No one can be selected which is of more vital interest to the community than this'of borrowing money on the creditof the United States. Nopower has een conferred by the Americarn people on their govermuent, the free and unburdened exercise of which more deeply affects every member of our republic. In war, when-the honor, the safety, the independence- of the nation are to be,' defended, where all its resources are to be strained to the utmnost, credit must be brought in aid of taxation, and the abundant revenue of peace and prosperity must be anticipatedl to supply the exigency, the urgent demands of the moment. The people, for -objects the most inmportant which can occur in the progress of nations, have empowered their government to make these anticipations, to borrow money on the credit of the United States." Can any thing be more dangerous or more injurious than the admission of a princielple whi'ch authorizes every State and-cororation in the Union which possesses the right of taxation to burden the exercise of this power at their discretion. "It is not the want of original power in an independent sovereign State to prohibit loans to a foreign government, which restrains the Legislature from direct' opposition to those made by the United States. The restraint is imposed by our Constitution. The American people hive conferredthe power of borrowt ing money on their government. A-nd by making that government supreme, have shielded its action in, the exercise of this power, from the action of the local governments. The grant of the power is ineompati ble with a restraining or controlling power, and the declaration of supremacy is a declaration that no such restraining or controlling power shall be exercised.", I will not, Mr. Chairman, trouble the Comnmittee with reading further extracts from this clear and lum i nous exposition of this question of Constitutional law. I commend it to the calm and serious consideration of this Committee. f I take it for granted that this settles the question at once, so far as the right of the General Assembly either with or without a grant of power in the consti tution of the- State —-to tax the stocks of the United States, is concerned. I thin'k gentlemen will concede that it is in vain and idle —-that it is worse than vain and idle thus to fling a defiance in the' teeth of the general government, while that government has pow er to settle definitely this question of conflict between: itself and the state governments. Unless gentlemen desire to show their teeth when they dare not bite — to invite a quarrel in which the State muest certainly be worsted. Now sir; a word or two, in regard to thequestion of conferring power upon the G General Assembly to tax t h e stocks of the State, in the hands of those of its creditors. The gentleman from Clark, (MP. MIASON) directed the attention of the committee to those legis lative enactments by which the faith of the State wasi irrevocably pledged, to the public creditors, that no tax should ever be levied upon this species of public credits. t - Mr. Rk:NNEY, desired to inquire Of the gentlerod from Ross (Ma. GaEEN) what amount of stocks were issued under, and exc luaded from taxation by the law of 1825. Mr GREE1, had no idea of the exact amount, and did not look upon it as material to'the view which he took or the arguments he proposed tb offer. Mre. REEMELIS, said that-he had yresterday stated the amount at three millions. He had since become satiseied that the stateme'nt was incorrect, having since taken,some trouble to ascertain. He sent to the desk, the re port of the Auditore of Sta te upon the subject, a passage in which in suppo rt of his position, was read, at his request. /vlr. GREEN, saint he did not look upon it'as material, whether thewhole amount of the debt o r even whether any portion of it w as cove re d by the gliarange- THe wuld go so far as to say that if th e Leeisla-' ture had been totally silent upon the aib'ect —- i f illi stead of a solemn guaranty entered into under cith cuts taslces the most binding and obligatory, the y ha, said nothing on th at poin t —-he would maitain thai under the circumstances we are bound to maintaih good faith toward the- public creditor, and to abstain from the imposition of those taxe s which there was eith era o an express or an implied areement.should never be levied. It perhaps makes the question somewhat stronger, whelp the exemption has been made and guarantied by direct legislative acts- but I hold that if there had been no legislative action, expressly protectinig these public obligations, we are under the in fluence of a higher obligation' —-the oblig-ation to keep the public faith inviolate. What differenee: does it mae in view df the morality of the question, whether we have in express words avowed thiat, which by inevi tably inference is a term in the contract, or not?'Not a particle and gentlemen have but strange ideas of public morality, Who deem that it is to be ~imited and efined only ~y express legislation. So far as these bonds are protected by express legis, lationj -gentlemen seem to entertain a little doubt of the question of power. In regard to the others that do notby express reference to the law of 1825, come under that rule, I hold that we are bound that they, shallbe exonerated, by the operation of that higher rule to which I have referredl —-by a bond stronger than the hand of power, arule higher than constita tutions —-by the obligations of State faith, of public morality. Why? Because, by a solemn contract el tered into upon a good and sufficient consideration the State has impliedly if not expressly agreed that, for all time by no act of hers, by legislation or other wise, should the value of' these stocks be impaired, Upon this pledge of her faith she borrowed the money, and made herself a party t o the coitract with the pubhc creditor. She did not hoard this money. She scattered it broadcast through the land. By., it she has built up that splendid system of public works that have lade her what she istlhe seco'nd State in this glorious confederacy. If the Supreme Court of Ohio, under -similar cir cutmstances, would interfere to protect a little bank charter, I would ask, what would they not do in a case of this kind? I would refer gentlemen to a decision of the Supreme Court of Ohio: "The Com mercial Bank v. the State of Ohio, 7th Ohio Reports,", And let me remind gentlemen that this decision, ac quiesced in as right by the bar and the people, was ruade with the concurrence of a gentleman then a member of the Court, the Hon. Reuben Wood, who, in reward of the consistency of his democracy, they have recently placed at the head of the Government, of the State. What do the Court say in regard to the rights of corporations-aye, sir, a despised bank corporation? They laid down the doctrine that even they could not be violated with impunity. The General Assembly, by an act of incorporation, created the Commuercial Bank of Cincinnuati, arnd lhad im posed upon her, by that charter, a tax of 4 per cent. upon the dieidenc~s. The Legislature, by a subse quent general law, saw fit to levry a tat of 5 per cent. upon all the bank dividends. The Commercial Bank resisted the execuxtion of the law, and the question came before the.PSupreme. Court for decismon. That Oourt decided that {he charter was a contract-tha~ 6t) 70 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-ThnUSDAY, DECEMBER 12. the provision for imposing the tax was a term of the her public peace; but it is prudent and.right to avail contract-that by the Constitution of the United ourselves even of such means to render the citizensde States, States are prohibited from passing any law sirous to promote the general welfare; and for'such impairing the obligation of contracts-that the purposes should the home investment be encouraged. law of - the State, so far as it was applicable S hall I be told that the investment in them by citizens to the Commercial Bank of Cincinnati, is in vio- of other counties should be encouraged as the meas lation of the contract, and therefore void. If the of bringing foreign capital to the country? Theargu Supreme Court of Ohio, under all the pressure of ex- ment is plausible. but it is unsound. We need capital ternal influeniices-of that clamor against banks because oftheenterprise of onr citizens andofthe age which has been got up by politicians, and claimed to in which we live, and we are co'nstrained to go abroad be public opinion-which has been to them a per- for it from necessity. If we had it at hliome, every man feet God-send in the way of capital on which to will admit, that we should not go abroad toseekit. speculate in humbugging the people. If, under such Better oweyour own citizens, interested in the stability a pressure, the Court would maintain its indepen-land rosperity of our free institutions, thani lie under depce, and protect the right of a despised bank corI money obligations to the citizens of other countries poration, think you they would falter or hesitate to with the consequent influence which it may confer in nullify your law when you bring home the question affcting the action of your government. But again; to the individual rights of the citizen-not of the you have invited your state bonds home by making millionaires rioting in wealth, but of the widow and, them in s oart the b t banking capital of the the orphain,who have their little pittance invested in State- andyou have authorizedthe independent banks the public'securities, and depend upon the income to issue paper on a deposite of those bonds-you have arising therefrom for their daily bread, relying upon providedthiat if any of those banks shall fail to redeem the faith of the State? No, sir, they will assuredly, the paper so issued, these bonds shall be put into the set its mark of reprobation upon so wanton a viola- I market and sold forthe purpose of raising a fund for tion of the public engagements. Gentlemen talk of the redemption of those notes. And nowwhat further reachin' h miilionaires! Ca-hyr reaching the millionaires! C they reach the mil- do you propose. Simply'to destrov the value of lionaire.s of Wall street, of Threadneedle street? No, the very security upon which the bill holder is to sir, the foreign bond-holder is beyond your reach, but rely. By imposing a tax on these bonds in the hands you seek to reach your own citizens-to tax the funds of your own citizens by which they will cease to be of the poor widow and the orphan. sought for,as they must pass into'the handsof foreign Happily, though you may attempt this fraud, you ers, if they pass aDt all, but'at a depreciated price, thus are powerless to carry it out. There is a higher law, perpetrating a double fraud. First upon the banks a greater power than yours, a power behind the who deposited these bonds, relying upon the faith throne greater than the throne you occupv imperi I of the State that in so far as her action is con umr iir.perio-that will say, emphatically, NO! To cerned, nothing should be done to impair their cur leave the question of morals involved in the question, rent market value,J in case it should become neces for a moment let us look at what will be the practi- sary to resort to a sale of them, in order to meet cal operation of the policy proposed by the report., theliabilities of the bank. Secondly, and as gentle It is conceded by every one who has participated in men here will say is of infinitely greater importance, the discussion, that you cannot reach the foreign the holders of the paper of these banks who have truscreditor. He is beyond your reach. What is the ted in, relied upon the indemnity afforded by these consequence? You create a distinction between the, State securities, for payment in case the banks should foreign and the domestic creditor, founded upon no fail, or refuse to do so at the counter, are deprived of wvant or necessity of the State. The burden falls the benefit of those securities, at all events to the exentirely and exclusively upon our own citizens, and | tent to which, by your action, those securities are denot upon the millionaires who reside abroad. The I preciated in value. domestic creditor will find his investment unsafe Sir,,if we liave this power, I holditwould be most from legislation; there is no limit to the power; and unwise to use it. No State, not revolutionary, has ever and if you can diminish the revenmue arising from resorted to a tax upon its own Stock. No State acting these stocks to the amount of a fraction of,a cent, upon principles of sound policy, will ever do it. Beyou may tax away the whole revenue. Having no cause it is the violation of the contract to do so, and faith in the stability or honesty of the Legislature, therefore immoral-and because such a tax must Jehe will part with his securities as soon as possible, ce-sarily operate injuriously upon-foreign loans. or remove to another State, carrying his capital with Mr. Cihairman, the proposition under consideretion him. The guardian will find them unsafe for an in- is unworthy the dignity of this body, whose high pro-. vestment in behalf of his ward; all classes of your vince and privilege it is to uphold ithe character, and citizens Will put them away. I would ask gentle- declare the sentiments of the people of Ohio. I have' men which they prefer, to have them held in foreign referred to a higher written law than your Constitution countries or in our own? Do they desire to increase or any that you have power to ordain-a law whiihe, that current of precious metals now flowing from'ithin its own limits, governs our government, and re. this to f(oreign countries, in the payment of semi- strains its action, But there is an unwritten law higlannual instalments of interest? or would they retain er than that high law-a law higher than any governthose instalments in the hands of our own citizens, mento law which should bild every-act and control to sw ell the aggregate wealth of the State, forming every motion-a law enjoined by God himself, and ada lunk in that chain of duty and interest that binds dressed to,the hearts and consciences of men. That menl to the Government undor which they reside? law is the laws of good faith. What is the policy of Great Britain in regard to her Mr. Chairman, it haslong been my opinion that the: one hundred millions of public debt? She encoura- good people of Ohio requireabut little at the hands of ges its investment in the hands of her citizens, and Legislation or of his Convention. Givethem law to by this means makes every man interested in the define readily meum'tuum, and sufficient power to enstability of the Government. force those rights of persons and property,and they have God forbid that the State of Ohiot be ever re- all they require. They live under the influence of an duced to that mi'erable condition, when she shal be elevated tone of public morals, which will guard the obliged to depend solely upon her public seeurities for against any infraction of that higher law, to w''h OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURsDAY, DECEMBER 12. their favor by eternally prating to them of how much I love them-and let me sa, they are pnot so silly as to tbelieve every th in g th at its told wthem-they can recogtlize a frien d who se acts bespeak his, attachment to their interests, even though he be not of ten and loud in his pr ofe ssions. But I would ask of the Democracy on this floor, if inviolate public faith is not the corner stone of Democracy?-wClHich regar ds the rights of t he me anest as well as of the highest, which performs its engagementss, wi th all its citizens, and with a ll t he world -without regard to position, to partie s, to forms of governrim ent pr of rel igion. Yes sir; upon the broad front of true denocracy, is stamped in characters of living light, the eternal principles of Truth and Hon - ESTY. Am I mistaken, Mr. CHAIRMAN? Does not this sound to your democratic ears with the sweet faml idrity of the recollections of former end better days, — when true democratic principles were understood and prasticed better than they are now? Sir, you have adopted rcsolurions, and fiery properly, to extend the civilities of this body to a distinguished stranger-a friend of his sovereign, who has come to this country for the purpose of acquiring light in regard to the prini ciples atnd worki,ngs of our republican form of govern m nt, our free institutions, and all those vast and won derfui improvements which have placed our country i,i the foremost rank among the nations of the earth. Let us imagine him, after having passed through every portion of the United States-,and observed our progress our institutions, and observed their workings and re sults, to have ret,,rned to his native land, and given to -his royal master an account of his visit and his obser vations. One oi -his chapters he devotes to his sojourn, in Ohio. He tells his sovereign that he was invited to visit a body deputed by their fellow citizens to the high and responsible trust of re-organizing the fundamental' law of their State. And what struck his mind most forcibly as evidence of the peculiar character of the people and the tendency of their institutions was, that while one hundred and eight gentlemen were engaged i, reforminig and remodeling a governmnent for two rnillioals o. people, there was no strife-no appearance of conifusion-no symptoms of popular commotion, all was quiet and orderly. But he will also be forced to say, that though he saw much to admire in the exter nal appearance of this assembly with shame, it may be withi a sneer, he will ackuowledge that this show of iitelligence —of public virtue, was mere parade-mere talk-that at the very time they invited him to wit ness the practical workings of their vaunted beautiful system of Repubilicanism,they were engaged in discuss ing a proposition whether it was lawftu to clheat the public creditors! I said in the opening of my remarks, that I intend ed to call things by their right names. I say now that I hope no gentlenman will suppose that I intend to im pute to him improper or unworthy intentions or mo tives; but I say that this Turk coula go home and tell his sovereign that these christians,professing to act uni der the sanction of the God of Christiatity, were con triving to do what the Koran does not permit, and what he, ill the plentitude of his absolute doininion,dare not! undertake to prosrice uponl his own subjects.' I say it is a proposition to cheat the public credito-r Glawze it over as you may-paint it an inch thick, to that comnplexion will it come at la~stsstrip it of the sophistry, ald special pleading'with which gentlem~en see~k to hiide it. Tear off the veil, and the hi'icos ~fen' tures of the demono Repudiation swill appear. You send your agents i,~to the market Xwith your bo-nds —you proposed to pay five, six or seven per cent. interest. That wast the consideration ford which they were purchased. You received the money. What test all other laws must come. I care not what your Legislature may do or say. If acts are not consistent wit i public morals, they will fall powerless-a sound public opinion will repudiate them and powerless they will ever be when they attempt the perpetration of;a fraud upon the rights of the citizens. What is this public faith? I must own that I was surprised when I heard the gentleman from Knox (Mr. MITCHELL) pronounce the public faith to be a humbug. I am sure that the gentleman must have used the phrase inadvertenttly, or in an ungarded moment; or perhaps in pleasantry. Otherwise he certainly would not have suffered himself to have been betrayed into an expression so unworthy of his character. What then is,this public faith? Is it mnere declamation? Has it noa defi:lite fixed mreaning in the mintds or hearts of honest men? Mr. Ml rcHE-LL said that the remark was made merely in reference to thedenial by some of the right of the General Assembly to repeal laws, whose repe;l would affect the interests of, individuals. He thought that to be a humbug and a bug-bear. Mr. GREEN. I am sorry to say, the gentleman does not vary his position by his explanation. The taxing power is a sovereign power. It is onle of the -highest'attributes of sovereignty. It is a power wvhch it is not, in general, advisable for the State to part with. But that the State Can, in special cases, di vest itself of that power, there can be no doubt. And having parted with it, it is right and necessary that she shor.ld adhere to the terms of the grant to the fullest extent of the legal and moral obligation, consequent 4pon the act. And to that extent, despite your Con stitution or your laws, the judicial tribunals of the coun try will hold her. When therefore the General Assem bly has, for a valid consideration, stripped itself of the power of taxation, the law by which it is done, is as irrevocable as the law of the Medes and Persians. Thank God there is no power of Sovereignty here, that may revoke, of its own mere will, a contract solemnly entered into by the government. Sir, what is publie faith? It is the reflection-the expression of the active principle of the public morality. It is the aggregation, the sum of the individual honesty of the citizens. When corruption finds its way into the administration of a government-when fraud and false hood ruark its dealinigs, and the people sanction and approve-thie downfall of that government, and of that people, is near at hand. What does the teachings of all past history iticulcate upon us as our duty, as citi zens of a free republican country? Look to Carthiage, to Greece, to Rome, to France-and mark the destruc tion of human institutions, following closely and inevy. itably the decline of public faith. Upon the virtue and the intelligence of the people, rests the whole fabric of republican governmenlt. Where there is virtue, there will generally be found intelligence; the posses sion of the one, inspires a desire for the other. No doubt a high degree of civilization may exist, where virtue and morality are but little regarded. But such a state of things is a sure. unerring evidence of internal rottenness and decay, a certain presage of approaching downfall. I ask for information, What is Democracy? I ask those who claim-to speak, ex cathedra on the s ubject-s of gentlemen on this floor who claim to be, the repre sentatives of the peaole, and who seem to think that verily, they "are the people and wisdom shall die with them." I err greatly sir, if they do not find that the kind of democracy involved in the proposition before you, will be scouted as spurious, by the people. The people!-I am one of them; and whatever concerns them, concerns -me; I love them so well, that I wilt resist every attempt to injure their reputation for hon esty and fair dealing. I shall not rest my claim to 71 72 OHIO CONVENTION DEB flave you done with it? Turn your eyes over the Sta of Ohio. Whether judiciously or not, it has been ex pended, andsthe result has been the elevation of Ohi to the proud position of the second State in the confee eracy. You-gave those who furnished you with th means an express or an implied guaranty not to a tempt to invalidate the contract. I would ask wh wasit that enabl ed the State to realize half a milio dollars of profit in the excrhange of bonds during th past year? It was the fact that our public faith stoo unime eached, and not only unimpeached but so fa unimpo thclable-like C uesar's wife, n ot onl y pure, bu above s *.., icion. It was that character which enable the Sta n 1839, w hen the publi c d ebt presse heavily- tg publiccontractors'were knocking at th door of the eeatury for money to pay their suffering starving labore,, t o go the banks of our own State an obtain m oney to r elieve the pres sing wants of the la bore r, and his children cryi ng for bread. Look at th history of the State from 1825 to 1850. From th origin of the first loan for the public improvement t, the last operation by which you realized more than hal a million in the shape of premiums on your new issu~ of stocks. What has enabled you always to comman, the means to carry out your vast and splendi( schemes? I~ answer emphatically, CoNFIDErNCE IN TH PUBLIC FAITH. In 1824, when we went into the market of the worl( with our bonds, what had we to pledge? Nothing bu our forests. But we had credit, not based alone on th~ visible means of payment, but on ouir public character The world believed our promises, when we pledged oul faith and honor to the public creditor. If eapitalist~ had supposed for an instant that while we were offering a pledge of public faith as a security, there was a men tal reservation of the right-the sovereign right of re pudiation whispering the word of promise to the ear think you these monuments of enterprize wou ld have come into existence. No sir. Your forests would have remained unbroken and the wolf wvould prowl where now cities stand and smiling fields teenm with wealth and plenty. We pay interest upon our bonds semi-annually. If you impose a tax on the bonds, you reduce the rate of interest, to the amount of the tax, and- the value of the bonds is reduced to that extent. Many of the public creditors paid from five to ten per cent. premiumn, in consideration that they were to receive a fixed rate of interest unreduced, to the extent that we, by legislation, reduce the value of the bonds we repucdiate. To a small extent it is true, but not the less reprehensible on that account. In fact it is more so, inasmuch as petty larceny is a oneaner Crime than bold and open robbery. If we are to do wrong, let us, at least do it in an open and fearless manner. Slav to the public creditor, We have got the money and the power; we do not like to pay; we will pay the interest when we please, and the principal when ve get ready; we mentally reserved- the right- to swindle you, whenever it suited our convenience; you committed an error, ashen you trusted your money on the faitht of a sovereign State:; because it is lawful at ally timne for State necessity to repudiate State holnesty. - Suppose we-do it in regard to those- bonds not- excluded from taxation by the laws of~ 1824? The gentleman ~from Trumnbull [ Mr. RArNNY] -is an able l-awyer, and I put the question for his consideration: Does he suppose those bonds issued under the law of 1825, stand-on any better footing than those -not protected? Can all express guaranty betany better in morals or in saw than one fairly and legitimately implied? So far as the Constitution of the United States protects anlexpress guaranty, just ~0 far it protects an implied one. te It is to the nature of the transaction that courts ever x- look, to determine the extent of the'obligation, io X Suppose we succeed ini repudiating the smnalariount d- not especially exempt from taxation? It will exhibit e only the diffleeence between a grand and petit larcenyt- -that is all. at I have felt this question to be an imoortat one, and n I could not, in the discharge of mv duty to the people e I represent, permit it to pass without my solemn propd test. I have shown that we are expressly preeluded by r the Constitution of the United Statesfron taxinig the t national securities-that to place such power in tho d hands of a State might have tt,e effect to paralyze the ed whole strength of the niation, and divest i/tof that e power which is necessary for the protection of itself r, and this great confederacy. That so fer as tose of the d bonds of the State that are protected from taxation,, by - positive law are concerned, they fall within the deciesion of the Supreme Court of the United States. In e regard to the others, the same moral objection remains, o to preserve the faith of the State inviolate: That the If eff,ct of taxation would be to drive the public securie ties from the State, and place them in the hands of the d foreign capitalist. d One word in conclusion. I do not agree withli some Eof modern reformers that the times are all out of j'oi,nt -and that it is neccessary to rub out every thing and d 1 commence de nuvo. I thinkl that a few changes are t necessary; but we are to seek a wise and salutary ree form, not universal destruction and overthrow-. I ask *. to be convinced that reforms are necessary, and I shall r ever be found in favor of them. I desire lightand ins struction; but I must have more powerful arguments than fall from the lips of those who avow themselves - the friends of desecration and demolition. I say to - gentlenmen in the language of a distinguished reformeir , of another country, -ITrue reform has but oie eie my to dread. All other foes must sooner or later fall before the expression of the popular Will, provided it be urged with sincerity and temper-but she cannot survive the intemperance of her own friends, act their like men associated in the greatest of all causes-and . resolve to resort to no other measures, no other argu menrits than which are suggested by reison and truth." Let us to act like men associated for the purpose of -carrying forward a great and iimportant work,in which i countless millions are hereafter to be interested. Let us coolly calmly and philosophically survey the ground , before us-not entertaining propositions merely be cause they are reforms in name, but look at the thing itself. With this spirit and in discharge of a solemn duty. I now in the name and by the authority of the pe ople of Pickaway and old Ross, whom I in part rep resent, earnestly protest against this unconstitutional most unwise, unjust and iniquitous innovation. Mr. SMITHf of Warren, was aware that the Committee was weary with the discussion of the question ' before them, but considering the importance of the proposition, he felt that it was a duty which he owed to the constituents which he represented, to state, in a few words, the grounds of the opinion that would govern him inll givinig his vote. In the statement of the reasons which had influenced his mind, he had alrady been anticipated by gentlemen of more ability than he claimed to possess; nevertheless he had a few words to say as the representative of all intelligent and independent constituency, and he did not feet that hie could consistenltly, with his feelings of duty to there, remain entirely silent. It will be seen, Mr. C~,~rm~aN, that tide section flow under consideration includes itn its provisions, not only the stocks of the State which are hereafter to bee issued, but those:that are already in the hands of tb~ public creditors —issuec and tranlsfeted to there under OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, DGCEMBFR 12. a solemn Legislative pledge Ithat theyshould forever remain free from taxationr. So far as regards the stocks that may hereajter be isseled, I do not propose to say anything; but shall confine my remarks to the question presented by the proposed amendmnent of tthegentle. man from Meigs, (Mr. HoRToN.) In 1825, the State of Ohio embarked in a system of Internal Imporvements. In February of that year, the General Assembly, by law, authorized loans of money upon the basis of a solemn pledge of the public-faith for the purpose of carrying her plans and improx emeats into effect. For this purpose that body selected and set apart, as is usual in such cases, certain revenues which were to be applied to the payment of the accruing interest and to the final extinction of lhe-principal. Upon this pledge the money was realized. I propose to read a part of the 5th section of that law. It is as follows: "And the faith of the State is hereby pledged for thepay ment of the interest and.the finat redemption of the prin cipal of the sums to be borrowed by virtue of this act; and that no tax shall ever be levied.by the LegislatlrTe, or under the authority of this State, on the stock to be created by vir tue of this act, nor on the interest whieh may be payable thereon; and further that the value of the said stock shall be in no wise empaired by any legislative act of the State." s Under the authority of this law, the. State went i n * to the market as a borrower. She had pledged herrev enucs-she had plighted her faith that her stocks should remain free from taxation-the terms were accepted the loan was procured, and a contract was completed on as good and sufficient consideration aA it was in the power of the State to make. The members of the General Assembly of 1825 werc wise men.-, They saw the duty they Were re., quired to perform. They understood what provisions of law were necessary, and they made them. They set apart the necessary revenues. They pledged the public faith; and I submit to you, sir; if it is not right after all th i this, th at at public faith sIould be observecd, and t heos pledges religiouslv kept? Is it for us, their successors to violate a trust, a contraCt-a pledge madev with so much solemnity? As an abstract proposition, I trust there can be no doubt but theme mbers of the committee understand and agree wit h me i n t he m eaning and constr uction of that provision of the constitutieo nof the United States, that provides tha t no S tate s h all pass any law imputaring the obligation of contracts. But here we are met by, the o bjectioni of the gentleman from Knox, He claims that the act of February 1825 is, in effect, void or void able at least, because one General Assembly has no power to pass any I aw which another may not repeal. He claims that, because these is in the constitution no express power of this kind granted, therefore, it does not exist. I admit that there is no such power ex pressly granted; but I hold that under the general grant of legislative power to the General Assembly, that body has the right to pass any legislative act not pro hibited by the constitution of the State or of the Uni ted States. It has, as I hold, full and plenary discre tion over all matters within the scope of legislative au thority, unless expressly restrained. Can, then, a Legislature pass a law creating a con tract within the true and legitimate meaning of that term? Thus can be considered no longer -an open question. It has been settled on solemn agreement,by the highest judicial tribunal (,f the Union, as well as by the Supreme Court of this State. ~ - Is thea the law of lt~15i a contract according to the legal in~tent and meaning of the term? If there ever was a legislative act of this character, that was one. Stocks wdre to be issued, conltainling awn express prom ise to pay. Terms were submlitted. Pledges were giv en, unot only of:paymnent, bat that nothing should lie done to irnpair the value of the credit thus created. T"hese were the inducenents which the State held out to her creditors. Should these promise s no t b e: complied with, on our part,to the fullest ex tent? It strikes m e that they shiou ld. If an express power, granted in the Constitution, had been required, this debt never could h ave been created. If opinions, such as those of the gentleman from Knlox, had prevailed, the c anals of Ohio c ould never have been, nade- no stocks created -no money borrowed, But I hold, Mr. Choairman, that no such exbress powe r is n ecessary. Il a constitut ion of e numerat ed powers, like thatof the United States, doubtless such authority should be given, either expressly or by implicatiol. as nec essary for the carrying of its other powers into ef. feet; but our State government, so far as le gislation is concerned, is not one of e numerated powers; and I hold that any action of this Convention, Which effects eit her an ex press or an implie d repeal of the act Of o1825-which I believe to be a contract as solenpu and as sacred as it is in the p owe r of a sovereign Statl e to make, would be a violation of that clause of the Con. stitutlon of the United State s, which is expressly ina tended t o forbid such acts. -Mr. Chairman; [could not so violate the oath I have taken to support that consti - tution, as to vote for such a clause. I wish to be understood; I attribute to no member of this body an improper motive. I a ct upon my owth opinions,deliberately forn med, an d I presume other gen tlemen do the same; believing that the adoption of the section now before us would be a violation of the Co stitution of the United States, and a violation of the letter and spirit of the act of 1825. I cannot go for it. Gentlemenwma difer a nd honestly diffder upon quest ions of this kind. Men constantly differ in regard to ques, tiOIIs of law, both statute'and constitutional-upon the right to pass such acts as the law of 1825; but I put this question: Suppose the General Assemnbly of 1895 had t ranscended it s power, and that another Legislature had the constitutional right to repeal th e law; would it be expedient to do so? and should' this convention, by its acts, enjoin upon future Legislatures to perpetrate such breaches of faith? Admit, for the sake of- the ar gument, thiat, the General Assembly of 1825 had not the power it assutned to exercise-that under a mrii taken view, it transcended its authority, what is the re sult? That bed- believed'that it had the power-un der that belief it acted. No subsequent Legislature hasever doubted the binding effect of the law, nor has its validity, by any competent-tribunal,legislative or ju dicial, ever been called in question-your people have never questioned the -power of the General Aseembly to pass that act, or demand its repeal. The public credit was pledged by the Act of 1825: Did the people question the ability of the Legislature to pass such an act? -No! Why thei should thisCon vention repudiate the terms of it? Did not the public creditors rely on the public faith for the fulfillment of State engagements I Had a judicial tribunal of the country ever questioned the act all uded to? Onwthe contrary, it is known that in relation-to similar-acts they have especially recognized the power. of the General Assembly to pass them-, and thereby to make Legislative contracts. He would put the. question to gentlemen on the opposite side of the. Hall, (and he would do so confid~elxtly,- giving them: credit for Call honesty of purpose, for he Ywas happy at all times to give them credit for the same inten-. tienls as those to which he laid claim himself.) Would it be right or proper, admitting for: a mnomen~ that the Legislature did not possess the aulthority,^ (although it hadl nevrer~ been seriously questioned,) would it be right, hewould ask, wh~en the pu-blic .faith was pedl~ged in 1829~, by an express:and solemn . I. 1 1 1 I -1 73 74 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, DFCEMBER' 12. act, for this Convention to enjoin upon all" subse- equally strong in both. If we impair the security by quent Legislatures the duty of taxing moneys in- a direct violation of the law, it is a part of the same vested in those bonds? He would submit that ques- species of morality which would wipe off the, debt tion to every lawyer in the Convention, as well as to altogether. The only difference being that the latter the gentleman from Knox, as a moralist and a Chris- would be done openly, while the former Was only tian gent]eman, would it be right in individuals to filching a part of the creditor's revenue. He washed repudiate the forms and obligations of a contract? his hands of all such transactions. He would, for a moment, suppose that he was to bor- He (Mr.,SKITH,) did not know. that he had a single row $100 from the gentleman from Knox, promising constitu,ent who possessed a single dollar in statestocka. to pay at the rate of 10 per cent., and at the expira- But he would say that he did not think that be hada tion of the term refuse to pay more than 6 per cent., constituent who would not blush if he fully under which was the legal rate of interest; would such a stood the present proposition, at this example of punic line of conduct be right or honest? After having faith, and violated credit. He alluded to the taxingof received the money on a solemn promise, and when those stocks which had been issued not only under the in need, without fraud or imposition, the man who act of 1825, but also under subsequent acts of the le would repudiate the obligation could not be consid- gislature, containing the same pledge of the public ered honest or conscientious. -And if such ought faith. He understood from the Report of the Auditor not to be the manner of doing business by an indi- of State read this morning, that in 1849 there were vidual, how much less should it be that in which a some sixteen millionsof tlose stocks then outstanding. great and powerful State should act, the Legislature Who were the men to whom those bonds were payable? of which had passed a law on the subject, pledging Was the Jesuitical doctrine to be introduced here, that itself that no tax should ever be levied on those those who, in the gloomydays of the Slatestepped for securities? If they thus violate a sole-mn agree- ward wilh their money to enable the State to carryon ment which had been passed by former Legislatures, those extensive public works, so important to the coni and also required of thosewho should follow, to con- mercial prosperity of our people, and more especialy tinue to violate those contracts, what would be important at that period, were heretics with whom no thought of the State? After losing its character for faith is to be kept? And now it is sought'to deprive morality all is lost. those creditors of their just rights, rights which had It struck him that however much gentlemen might never been questioned by judicial authority. Is this a differ in opinion as to the power of the Legislature specimen of the Christianity of the nineteenth eentu to pass such a law, that upon the question of moral- ry, requiringan act of spoliation to be committed'upon ity, right and justice, there should be no difference of the rights of property by the Legislature of the State opinion in regard to these stocks. which has been Mr. Chairman, we may be justly proud of the improve issued on the faith of the State solemnly pledged by ment of our State-her increase in wealth and her the law of 1825. He could not perceive the slightest great advancement in commerce and civilazationi, but I ground for a difference of opinion, and in making hesitate not to say that as a State, the brightest jewel that assertion it was far from his intention to say to in her diadem, is the promptitude with which she has gentlemen, " Stand back, I am holier than thou."l heretofore met her liabilities and her hitherto unsullied He was merely stating his own opinion, and he public faith. Whatever else you may say of her legis would say, it was not right for them to violate a lation, the excesses of party asperity-whicheverparty solemn contract entered into with their eyes open, has been in the ascendant, her public credit and hler and in which there was neither fraud or imposition, pledged faith have hitherto been nobly maintained but everything understood and as clear as the sun at and I do hope that that credit will remain inviolate. noon. day. He would put one question relative tol Destroy the moral chatacter of your citizens; let it be the policy of the measure: Would it be right for them once understood that the public faith was to be'violated, as a Convention, to declare that not only the moneys and all was lost. Public faith was like that brightest hereafter to be invested, btit the moneys already in- of gems-female virtue, once lost, it could never be vested should be subject to this tax? If it be right restored. that all property should be taxed, could- they not The gentleman from Knox (Mr. MITCHELL) who is agree upon some provision that such tax should not a good lawyer,has argued, if I understood him correet' apply to those stocks which were issued under the ly. that if it be right to repeal a law exempting pro act of 1825, and subsequent acts containing similar perty from execution, then it must be right and proper provisions? Let such a provision be introduced, and for this Convention to annul the provision of theact he would support it, unless he was convinced that. of 1825 to which I have referred. Well now, if I shall, such provision was not in accordance with public for argument sake admit, that when the Legislature policy. and that the State would lose thereby more once passed a law exempting certain property from ex lhan she would gain. But he could not, with his ecution for the payment of debts, that it would be present views and feelings join, as a member-of this wrong for subsequent Legislatures to repeal that act, Convention, in voting for a proposition'which was in I cannot see low that wrong can sanctify this greater his opinioni a direct violation of a law, and which wrong; for if it would be wrong to repeal acts by which law was in form and substance a solemn contract, certain articles ere exempted from execution for debt, and containing all its essential elements. it would certainly be a greater wrong to violate a solemn As the gentleman from Ross, (Mr. GREEr,.,) had well legislative pledge, that this stock never should be taxed, remarked, if we attempted to do this where would or its value impaired. we stop? There was no member of the Convention Mr. MITCHELL begged pardon of the gentleman but would view with repugnance and abhorence any then in possession of the floor, (Mr. SMITH.) T!at attempt to repudiate the State debts, he cared not gentleman did not citch the drift of his argument on' from what quarter the gentleman might come, or to yesterday, which was to this effect; that whenever a what party he belonged. Such being the case, should law was found to work unfairly towards any portion any part of the contract be repudiated? Was not of the cilizens, the Legislature was empowered to rethe morality of the same description, whether it ap- peal it, and could not see why the Convention had not' plied to a part or to the whole'./ If it was right in the right to repeal the present law having reference to either to abide by the original contract, surely the taxation argment which made it so in one instance made it Mr. SMITH (resumed.) It was impossible that OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, DECEMBER. 12. gentlemen situated as we were in this hall, could,in con- serving the sanctitity of contracts, and the inviolabilitv sequence of the difficulty of hearing,apprehend the full of the public faith. force of arguments unless in the immediate vicinity of It had been remarked by the gentleman from Clark, the gentleman addressing the chair. After the explan- that in the event of this Convention adopting this secation of the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL) he tio,n, there was one consolation, that there was a power did not disagree with him, in te power of the Legis- above us, alludintg, as I understood him, to the Consti lature to repeal an act exempting property from execu- tution of the United States, under which rights guaran tion, buthe put it upon the ground that the repealing tied by contracts mnight be protected. He [Mr. SMITH] statute would be a law affecting the rtmedy, and not trusted that that glorious palladium would ever pratec impairing the valdity of a contract, and in such case our rights. The times, however, at present, were not good policy required that it should operate on contracts the most auspicious, if we may judge from appearan to be made in futuro. ces. Our gloriousUnion was threatened, but he hoped In reference to the act of 1825, I hold that it is a that the day was far distant when that Union would be solemn legislative contract-one which the Legislature dissolved; he trusted that that day might never come. has the power to make; one, the impairing of which, I But if in the wildness of ultraism it should come, and would be a violation of the Constitution of the United the Constitutioi of the United States should be destroyStates. But if I am wrong in that, I insist, that the ed, let us preserve intact, in this Constitution, some of insertion of such a provision in thisConstitution as the its glorious safeguards. Hlie had conme here with the one proposed, requiring atax to be levied on the stock tiost anxious desire to frame such a Constitution as issued under the provisions of that'law, would be un- would work for the general good of society, not for just. unwise, and wholly wrong. any isolated portion or class. He had come here to aid Another argument of the gentleman from Knox, was in framing a Constitution for the whole people, and he that the tax proposed to be levied is not on the stocks hoped that such a one would be framed as would meet hemelves, but on the moneys invested in those stocks. the sanction of the people. He was one of the people He would recommend to that gentleman's attention himself. But, as a member of this Convention, and as the old law maximn, "qui heret inlitera, haret in cor one of the people, he-could not vote for, or sanction, lice." "He that sticks to the letter, sticks to the book." any proposition in this Convention, which, in his opinHow could that gentleman go for his interpretation ion, would be a violation of the Constitution of the when the third section (thesecond not being considered United States, which he had sworn to support. and sufficienlly strong) went the length virtually, and sub- which, with God's help, he would support with all his stantially, of taxing all stocks? That interpretation of strength and ability. the gentleman was too technical. "The letter killeth, On motion of Mr. KIREWOOD, the Comnmittee rose but the spirit giveth fife." You cannot tax the money and reported. invested in stock, without taxing the stock itself. And The PRESIDENT laid before Convention the folI call upon the gentleman fromn Knox to draw a sensi- lowing: ble, legal distinction between them. It could not be Totke President of the Constitutional Convention: done. The stocks and the money invested in them, are Sia:-Permit me through you to tender to yourself and in legal acceptation, one and the same. Unless, indeed, the body over which you preside, an invitation to visit the we put it on the ground contended for by an tld gen. Gallery of the Western Art Unin,f at any and all times you tleman on ne occasion, who, having made a contract, ] may find it convenient during your stay in the city, Very respectfully yours, was anxious to repudiate it, and on being reminded of CHARLES STETSON, Pres't. his having made an agreement, hlie denied it, alleging Western Art Union. that the other party had made a proposition wh ich was Offce Western Art Union, C-incinnati, Dec. 12, 1850. accepted by him-but said he, "I made no contract." Cncinati,Dec.12,1850. (Laughter.] That was about equal to the distinction Mr. HITCHICOCK offered the following resolution: drawn by the gentleman from Knox. Resolved, That the Auditor of State be requested to report The gentleman from Brown [Mr.LtoUON] athis a rea- Convention at his earliest conver ience, the dates and The gentleman from Brown [Mr. LOUDON] as a tea amount of the several issues of the stocks of this State now son for the proposition, says that we have met here to out-standing, and what portion of said stocks weie issued form an organic law, and the gentleman from Auglaize under statutes exempting the same from taxation. [Mr. SAWYER] said that "we were rubbing out the ob- Mr. REEMELIN thought it useless to make appli' jectionable features of the old Constitution; that there tion, ason reference to the printed work on the subject are no vested rights if they be contrary to the great in- all the information possible to give would be found terestsof the people, and that complaints were made there. It was a moral impossibility to trace those when we attempted to tax the millionaire." bonds, as stated by the Commissioners who had been He [Mr. SMITa] represented immediately, no million- appointed for that purpose. In the Report made by sire. His constituents were men, in the ordinary walks Mr. Brough, they would find the names of the indof lift; many of them in moderate circumstances; but viduals who held Stock, but nothing further on the it 4lid not follow that because we had met for the pur- subject required by the gentletian making the motion. pose of framing a new Constitution, that public faith He would move that the motion be laid on the table. and public credit were to be violated, the social system Mr. HITCHCOCK was not as well acquainted with broken up, and the rights of property destroyed. If the history ofthe matter as the gentleman from Hamyou trespass upon the rights of one class, you infringe ilton,(Mr. REEMELINr,) but he could not help regarding the rights of all. as passing strange if there was nothing in the State et the right~~~~ ~~~~~~~s o f all The gentleman from Miami [Mr. DORSEY] said that partments to enable them to know what amount of he expected to hear the faith and credit of the State re- bonds had been issued. They did not wantthe specific ferred to; that it was not the first time he had heard it, bonds, but only the amount. and that he was not to be frightened by any such bug- Mr. REEMELIN would quote for the gentleman's bears "Why keep faith (says the gentleman) with the information from the Report of the Commissioners ap. bond-holder, and not with the poor man?" I pointed to inquire into the particulars of those bonds. He [Mr. SMITH] had come here to protect, to the best It was as follows: of his ability, the people of the State of all classes- "We attempted to trace the out-standing certificates the poor as well as the rich; and there is no mode in of Ohio State Stocks through a regular chain of transwhich that can be done more effectually than by pre. fers, to the original obligations issues by the Board of 75 76 OHIO CONVENTION - DEBATES.THURSDAY, DrCEMBER 12. Canal Fund Commissioners, and soon become satisfied it would require years of labor to accomplish it, if it was practicable. The an swe r of W. M. Vermilyo, transfer agent of Ohio -Stock, in New York,to the sev enth questions propounde d to him, and " th e deposition of John J. Palmner,'Register' of said Stock are referred to. These gentlemen, who are w ell ae cq ua in te d with the duties of the office, deem it impracticable to trace said transfers, except in a few cases, where the trans fers have not been frequent nor complicated." And those gentlemen further ill another place state that "After mich examination and reflection we con our with Mr. Vermilyo and Mr. Palmer in the opinions they express." Mr. HITCHCOCK. That act only goes to demonstate that the information required was in the possession of'.he State Auditor, and that although they could not get at the amount due A. B., C. or D. respectively, yet it was possible to arrive at the amount of outstanding bonds which had been issued under the law of 1825 and which were exempted from taxation. If the Convention had been sitting at Columbus the information might be readily obtained by reference to the State Library, but situated as they were at present they must have recourse to the Auditor. It was not of much consequence as to what description of Stock was held by this or that bank. Mr. SAWYER regretted that any opposi,tion should be ottered to the passing of that resolution. It was a legitimate inquiry of which every gentleman would see the effect. The Auditor who was-asked for such information had already given bis opinion on it, but on afull investigation it might appear that those bonds were ill the possession of parties who had bought them without any guarantee of their not being taxed. Mr. REEMELIN could not see the utility of such a resolution after reading the answer of the Auditor to the Commissioners, as follows: "1 respectfully answer, that the records of this office do not show specifically, the amount of the foreign Stocks, issued under each act, tracing the issues. The Stocks issued under several of these acts, have been blended and consolidated, and cannot now be separately stated." He would act on a su1ggestion from a friend, and withdraw his amendment. The motion was adopted, -Mr. STANTON offered the followitng resolution, which was agreed to: Resolved, That the thanks of of this Convention are ten dered to the members of the Western Art Union, for theiinvitation to visit their rooms. Upon motion, the Convention took a recess; TAXING PUBLIC STOCKS. Upon a motion by Mr. MITCHELL, which was agreed to, the convention now again resolved. itself into a Comrmittee of the Whole-Mr. LEADBETTER in the chair-and resumed the consideration of the 3d sec tion of the report from the committee on Finanice and Taxation-the question being upon Mr. Horton's mo tion to strike out from the 3d line of the section, the words "State and." Mr. RANNEY. He M ished to say a few words'+ in reply to the gentlemen Who had preceded him ianop position to this section of the report. They had com plained that they had yet heard no argument used In its favor. Although he did not expect to produce any thing better than had been already said, he still begged the Careful attention of the gentlemen, to see if they could not find something i'z the remarks that he was about to submit, that they could condescend to dignify by that name. A very troublesome hoarseness made it painful for him to speak, and still more painful for others to listen. But the importance of the question induced him to make an effort to' communicate- his views. The gentleman from Clark, (MR. MASON) is distressed for the honor of the State-Radicalism,nas he calls it, is about to overwhelm it; and with marvellous courage, he has avowed his determination to plunge into the turbid pool, and "pluck up drowned honor by the locks." I cannot but congratulate the country that the de fence of its honor has fallen into so able hands, and, those who are willing to sacrifice themselves to pre serve it. I was not myself aware, until they informed me, that I was engaged in a crusade against the honor and faith of the State. I had supposed that, when I consented to abandon my business and take a seat in this body, I had reserved to myself the right to speak and vote according to my convictions of duty. The gentlemen have not yet convinced me of the contrary. But the gentleman from Clark says that the public cre ditors trusted our faith and integrity, when it turns out that we are possessed of neither. Mr. MASON rose to explain; the remark was not ap plied to gentlemen on the other side personaly but to the proposition which they advocated, without, for a, too ment imputing to the gentlemen advocating it, any mo tives discreditable to theni, but more as to the effects resulting from their opinion of sound policy. Mr. RANNEY could not be mistaken, that gentle. men who had preceded him in opposition to this sec tion, had expressed themselves of its adoption, as a de parture from the principles of honor and faith; that it would be to break faith with the public creditor, by de nying to him what was justly his due; that. it would justly subject us to the imputation of unfairness,; and one of the gentlemen-the gentleman from Ross (Mr. GREEN) had characterized it as an act of petit larceny, for us to undertake to tax money invested in the public stocks of Ohio and of the United States, held by citizens of this State. The remarks of these gentlemen had been strong and decided; and if one half of what they had said were true, it must be that the Convention were about a most nefarious business, alike dishonorable to them and disgraceful to the State. Gen-' tlemen had spoken in a tone and manner that indicated their belief that a majority of this body were lost to all bensense of good faith and honor, ready to sacrifice the faith and credit of the State,and were now engaged in the work; and that they themselves, as the especial guardianns of the honor and faith of the State, washed their hands of the whole proceeding. It would be' very singular, if gentlemen upon this - side of the Hall had not some regard for the'faith and J credit of the State, as well a~ the gentleman from Clark AMIN sEY. Mr. LAWRENCE, from the committee raised yesterday to inviteAmin Bey, a visitor to this country from Turkey, to a seat within the bar of the Conventiou Chamber, made the following report: The select committee appointed to wait upon the Hon. AmIN BzY and tender to him and suite the hospita'ities of the Convention during their sojourn in this city, would respectfully report: That they have performed the duty assigned them and that AxiN BE:. informed them, that he would take pleasure in being present within the Hall of the Convention on Friday the 13th, instant, at 1i o'clock A. M. Respectfully Submitted WM. LAWRENCE, GEORGE J. SMITH, JOHN LARWILL JOHN S. IREEN,: JOHN E. HUNT. AFTERNOON!SESSION. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES -THURSDAY, DECEMBER 12. 77 (Mr. MASON) the gentleman from Warren (Mr. SMITH) raising objections to the taxation of articles of small and the gentleman from Ross (Mr. GPBzEN.) They- value. It was not the first time a false alarm had been surely knew that we all would be compelled to live Un- raisen to cover the retreat of a wily foe. It was the der the same government; and that we must leave to millions in the hands of the wealthy that we were now our children, that we love as well as the. gentlemen endeavoring to get upon the tax duplicate, for the very theirs, the same political inheritance which we now purpose of relieving the poor, and he would assuregenenjoy. How, then, it could be supposed that we were tlernell that they could not throw dust enough to prelost to all sense of public honor and faith, surpassed any vent that from being distinctly seen. calculation of his. He repudiated the charge as a base He would look first at the proposition to tax money slander. -invested by our citizens inU. S. and State bonds,, and The word,honor," was of rather equivocal import. consider it under the questions of honor, right, justice, The great Poet had put into the mouth of one of his and policy. He would come to the legal question characters the query, "What is honor?" The query hereafter. As the gentleman from Ross [Mr. GREKN] was pertinent in this connection; what do the gentle- had set him the example.' men call honor? It sometimes required aman to chal- He would suppose the case of a widow of a nan whe lenge his fellow to mortal combat. H'e could haie was possessed ofjust property enough to buy a snall wished, therefore, that gentlemen had given us their tenement for his faily in this city, and who dies leav te n mn f r his family in this city, and wvho'die I'ar definition of this wordl. M.Gdef R o s(inition of this word. ing it in her possession-a tenement for which she Mr. GREEN, of oRoss, (interposing) said, hi defi- would probably be taxed about ten or fifteen dollars. nition of the word honor,:Was, the payment of our Buthere was a merchant of this city, who had been But here was a merchant of this city, who had, been' debts a~ccordingiL to the term's of our contracts. debts according to the terms of ourcotracts. successful in business, and was possessed of property, Mr. RANNEY. That definition should be made the lawful tax upon which was $300. Being rich good by all his votes here. He, too, would despise the enough to retire from active business, he sells out his State that could not stand up to its epngagements, and merchandize, and turns his money iito State and U. S. upon whose honor no reliance could be placed. He bonds. When the tax gatherer cotnes round, he collects understood true honor to be just about equivalent to his ten or fifteen dollars of the poor widow, that has honesty, and dishonor to' be dishonesty; and one might taken her two months with industry and economy to apply as many qualifying and soothing epithets as he raise, and whois obliged to labor all the time for the pleased, but still this would be found to be the true support of her household; but when he comes to the definition of the term; and so long as we stood up for merchant, who formerly paid a tax of $300, the rich the equal protection of the interests of the high and man ay to him s by, Mr. Taxgatherer, I have the low, the rich and poor aIlike,, we would be-actLin~g mran says to him, "Pass by, Mr. Taxgathiere~r, I have the low,therihndporliewwulba nothing for you. I belong to the privileged order-I honestly and consequently honorably.have put my property beyond the reach of taxation." The gentleman from i~1eigs, (Mr. HORTON) had sta- He would inquire of the gentleman from Ross, whether ted that it would be impolitic to tax Ohio stocks, if this would be right? there were no pledge an the case-that such a thing Mr. GREEN of Ross, (in his seat.) Yes, if there was not done by any State of the Union. Mr. HORTON was very desirous to hear the gentle- were a contract in the case. man's argument; but he also desired himself to be un- Mr. RANNEY. But here. was a mn living under derst-ood correctly. the protection, and enjoying all the benefits of govern Mr. RANNEY certainly wished to understand the m3nt, in protecting his person and tens of thousands of gentleman correctly. property, but paying iiot one celit toward its support; Mr. HORTON had no doubt of that. Hehad said, yet, it would be right in the case of a contract. But that, with respect to all State bonds, it was a matter of he had not come to the legal question yet. The gen public faith to exempt them; and as for those hereafter tieman had undertaken to sustain his position oni the to be issued, it was a mere question of policy. ground of honor and justice and policy. He would Mr. RANNEY. And what did the gentleman say ask then, if it would be either honorable or just, to tax with reference to the question of policy? tihe poor widow, and exempt the man worth $50,000 be. Mr. HORTON. That, as a question of policy, it-,cause he had converted his meichaudize into minoneyor was best not to tax them. But that matter had noth- invested it in bonds? ing to do with the question-the gentleman was driving Mr. GREEN (in h's seat.) Abolish the debt and at. It was his part to upset the argument that it tax too. would not be right to tax bonds heretofore issued. Mr. RANNEY could not go with the gentlemant That was a mere business matter, but the matter in there. He would be betrayed into no inconlsisten hand involved a question of public faith. cy, and would do no injustice. It was right the debt * Mr. RANNEY now understood the gentleman to should be paid. It was also right that every citizen say he was opposed to taxing either those bonds which should contribute to its payment in proportion to his have been heretofore issued, or those which may be ability. -Repudiation was neither talkedof nor thought hereafter issued; and that in the former case, it would of by the people. The debt will be paid and that in spite be a violation of public faith; but he put the latter up- of, and against the tendency of the gentleman'sdoctrine; on the ground of policy. the most obscure man in your back settlements. would Mr. HORTON (in his sent.) That is right. go in'to the woods with nothing but his axe, to make a Mr. RANNEY would look a little further at these living for his family, and labor cheerfully, not merely facts. The gentleman frotn Clark [Mr. MAsoN] had for them, but for the support of gorerfiment, and to told us yesterday, that the adoption of this Report, help pay his full share of the debt; but to such a man, would send the Assessor into the private toilettes it would be setting but a sorry example-holding out of the ladies, in search of articles to be placed upon the but a poor inducement to adhere to his allegiance, to tax list; and the gentleman from Ross [Mr. GRE:EN] had'tax him, and exempt the rich man in his palace, who told us this morning what a sad effect it would have receives the very monoey collected, but adds nothing upon the interests of the widow and the orphan. This to it. was not the first time he had Observed men looking one And upon the ground of honor and faith, he supposed way and rowing another. He veintured to say, that if another case. If this people were to become a non, it were not that this section proposes to tax a large taxpaying people, the capitalist might still semi-annu amount of Stocks, these gentlemen would not think of ally drive up-to the treasury,for his interest; but where 78 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES -THURSDAY, DECEMBER 12. w such a system. It must be maintained by a standing , army. Mr. GREEN, -(interposing) was sorly to interrupt the gentlemen, but- he was still'-mis-understood. He alluded to the English government simply for thile pur p ose of showing that it was their policy toconcentrato t their debt in the hiands of their own citizeins, —and that b such wes the true policy of our government, for two reasons; first, because the interest would be paid to our own citizens; and, secondly because the citizen aC quired thereby an additional interest in the support of government. But he said, expressly,-withi an ejaeu lation,-he thanked God, that we were not in such a situation, that the maintainance of our government must depend upon a public debt. He was very far from either advocating or apologising for the State of things in Great Britain. Mr. RANNEY understood the getileman at the first, and he understood him now. But he wanted to show the practical operation of the theory which that gentleman was advocating; for the wit of man never devised a better system to foster privileged orders, whether it were established on the banks of the Thames, or on the bantiks of the Ohio. It was true, that there was no heraldric pomp belonging to the privileged orderq of this country; but the power of privileged orders did not rest upon the mere trappings which were thrown around., and upon them. It was their hold upon the public treasury which gave them strength. In Great Britain, in addition to the thousands in terested in the pubi;c stocks. there hangs upon the pub_ lie treasury and feed;from it, a standing aroluy and an es tablished priesthood. It is their vca t i on to resist all reforms. HActing i n con cert, the one e nforces obedience to every oppression by the exhibition of bristling bay onets, and the other by denouncing eternal punish ment upon all who refuse to submit. If'driven to desperation, any unfortunate being makes -a despair ig effort at resis tance, the army are ready to out his throat, and the hierarchy to send him to perditi o n, If w e wish to lay the f oundation of such a syste-n, we cannot make a'better'beginniiing than lo create a public debt relieved from taxation. T'be same causes will ul timatelv produce the same effects. But gentlemen had expressed their fears, that, on ac count of the presence of a distinguished personage [Hon. AmIN BgY] from the Old World, the shores of ~ the Mediterranean would be made to resound with the cry that the State of Ohio was practicing bad faith to ward her creditors. But if that gentleman should carry back with him any political sentiment, he trusted it would be that of the greatest man of this fge, when he said in substance that, a ",good government. like the dew of heaven, should dispense its benefits upon all alike;"-that he would take back with him the senlti ment of equality of rights, —equality in the support of the burdens, and in the enjoyment of the benefits of government. Let Lut this sentiment go abroad from us, and our State would itand before the world with far higher honor, than she could ever attain to upon the basis proposed by gentlemen over the way, or upon anv other basis. But to the argument, that> if money invf sted in our State bonds were to be taxed, they would go out of the handsoff our-citizens. Suppose a man inl this city, holding a hundred thousand dollars worth of State bonds, if he should sell them out of the State, he would bring back property into the State which could be taxed, which would be certainly quite as beneficial to the State in the mnatter of revenue, as lhough the iandividual were to hold on to the bonds. But where~ swould the flee with his bonds to s~}11 them where they would escape taxation? The moment he might frang. was the money to come from? Repudiation was to be deprecated certainly,' but it would be but the same r thing which was here upheld an d defended in the se capitalists; and if it should ever be resorted to, the lar gest share of the guilt should fall upon those who were w ill ing to live in the communit y and enjoy its protec tions and advantages, and refuse toi,bear any share in its burdens. But let this principle of repudiation, now practilse d by our capitalist s, be participatoed indby eery citizen, anan what w ould our stocks be worth? Who w ould s ell his farm, or his moerchandize, for State Stocks, when sc riy r the security for their payment wasgone? This W as the honor which the gentleman had proposed. T his w as the entertainment to which their example w ould invite us. uMr. GREEN, (in terposing.) It w as not only right, but obl igatory. W hen you have-a contract, itshould be observed, al though you have the power legally to avoid it. H e car e d not If the rich men were worth five millions. Mr. RANNEY had not yeat c om e to that point of t he argument. But suppose there was oie legal barrier in the w ay of taxing thes e bond s? Would the gentle man the n be i n favor of it? Mr. GREEN, (in h is s e at.) Public faith was in the Way. Mr. RANNEY. Pu blic faith was in th e way. He h oped the gentleman from Ross would not blush, when h a d i e ha he a dmitted that he was a very able member of this body. But that gentleman's argument covereda pretty extensi ve field. He had pointed us to the example of Gr eat Britain, and the pro!ectiona which she held over h er stocks- not permitting them to go out of the count tiy. Now every man to his tas te; but of all the exam ples- for teaching the principle of taxation, which ough t to be adopted in this republic, hecould not b ut consider the example quoted by the gentleman from Ross, to be the most unfortunate. For the example of Great Brit ain, in this respect, could be followed only by a govern. ment lost to all sense of equalityand justice, andstrong enough to draw its revenues from the poor, by force, and take its burdens off the shoulders of the rich. What was the practical operation in Great Britain? This whole system of government stocks originated there They had gone on creating government stocks-: till no man at this day could tell precisely how much they amtoun-ted to. These stocks had all been issued upon tlse principle proposed by the gentleman from Ross,-they were exempted from taxation. But still' there must be something to pay the accruing interest upon these bonds, and for this purpose, that govern. ment goes into all the work-shops and farm-houses, and every nook and corner of the lani-l, after objects cf taxati, n, which are made to extend to everything to eat, drink and wear, and even if there is as much as a pane of glass in any miserable hovel which happens to be inhabited, the, tax-gatherer is there to gather the means to roll- up the imnmense sum with which it is hle cessary to replenish the treasury of the kingdom to feed the thousands of parasites that hang upon it. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga, interposed to ask how many windows in one house were necessary to subject them to taxation in Great Britain? A VOICE. "One." - ~Mr. HITCHCOCK, (in his seat.) No, seven wine ~ows. Mr RANNEY confessed that hecould not-answer thne question. But he knew very well that such oppression as this could not be maintained without a powerful1 executive arm; that one half of the people could not be exempted, and the other-half taxed, without the san~ction of a.,tronlg force. The affctions of th~ peo- ple of a free government could; not -be drawn around f I I t a at OHIO CON,VENTION DEBAT TS —TURSDAY, D CEMBER 12. fer his bonds to any citizen of the State of New York, they would levy a tax upon their cash value, as upon every thing else; and thee same was the law in Penn. sylvania, and he presumed in all the other Statee. When he first came into this Convention, he sup. posed that all the bond-holders of the State would be glad to receive the money For them, and the sooner the better. But he had not been two weeks in the Conventiton before he found that he was green upon this subject; and he made then the declaration, which he still believed would be found most true, "That it-wou),d trouble us more to get leave to pay our State debt, than to get the money topayit." There wasa great amount of surplus capital in the State, and it was continually increasing; and the moneyed classes in the State would clamor for the creation of more bonds; because they would be desirous of investing their capital securely, and in such a way as to be relieved from all public burdens. Who could notsee, that, if this doctrine was to bie maintained, that we have no power to. tax money invested in the public stocks, it would be utterly destructive of the rights of citizens generally, by inducing their increase to any and every extent. Butwhen gentlemenfind that no other argument can avail them, then, as a last resource, they say, leave it to the Legislature. Whenever a proposition comes up to throw the public burdens upon all alike, they tell us we are running our business into perfect ridicule by. an attempt at legislating. He saw this several days ago. The rumblitg of theddistant storm did Inot deceive him. The galled jade winced as soon as we put our finger upon the u nsound spot. Leave it to the Legislature.. Aye, where had we left this subject hereto fore? Gentlemen had told us that no Legislature had ever laid their hand upon the state bonds to tax them, or the money invested in the m-and that was the very reason why he was not going to trust them any longer. The gentleman from Clark (Mr. MASON) had said he would appeal to the people to repudiate the new constitution, if we succeeded in incorporating this section. Let him not lay that flattering'unctionto hissoul. He would like to meet that gentleman before the people upon the question now before us; but as that was an improbable event, he would say, that, whenever that gentleman shall get upon the stump, and get a verdict in his favor on this issue, he hoped to hear from him. For, if, after this Constitution shall be signied, the gentleman should go home and tell thle people that the locofocos had determined to tax them all alike, in proportion to the property they possessed, he should never die of fear that the peoplewould not respond, "All is right!" When he looked at the position of the National Congress upon a kindred question. in years gone by, he was strongly confirmed in the ground that he had taken, that it was unsafe to leave great pecuniary interests to the Legislature. He saw them establishing a mammoth moneyed institution, extending its branches into every State of the Ulion, including millions of stocks exempted from taxation, and when the time come for a re'charter of that institution, he saw one hundred and forty members of Congress with the money of that bank in their pockets, called upon to give a vote-an impartial vote!-whether that institution should be re-chartered or not. He saw the press, in every important ci y, subsidized in its favor; and he saw, when the vote of -Congress was called upon the question, that it was decided to re-charter the bank by a large majority. But, thank God! we did see, then,another spectacle, though we might never look upon its lie again —our eyes were turned upon a: men who had the popularity and the independence which enabled him to say, "I forbid it! the bill shall not pass.-" And if nothing else had eerr distinguished the name of Andrew Jacksoun-if the battle of New Orleans were stricken from history, and the memory of menh-and his other great and glori ous deeds were o blite rated-i that single act would entitle him to the high est nitae, in tile temple of f a me! Hle had p roceeded thus far t o consider this question in the l ight of tjustice, and honor, an d faith; and he could not but think, that gentlemen would finally conclude, hat it would be best ior the m eo take I the termns namred in the bond." They must, however, remem ber that though they may be entitled t o, the ir j pound of fleshe," they must not draw one drop of blood. There were no'v outstanding'some -ighteen millions of Oh'o stocks; and the Lord knew theamountof stock of the Federal government; another war would i ncrease, the sum to-hundreds of millions, besides the neight)9ring State stocks. and stocks of corporations of the neighboring States, which he was in hopes this report would be made to embrace, so that we might catch them all. Having made this statement, he would come to thelegal question, whether money invested by the citizens of this state in these stocks could be legally taxed. He would remark in the first place, that he had enjoyed no opportunity for an examination of the question. He would give his first impressions and founded upon the authority which the gentlemen upon tim other side have produced and rely upon. It had been strenuously contended that the States could not tax the money of a citizen invested in Bonds of the United States. That to do so would be a violation of the Federal Constitution, which secures to that government the power to borrow money. The- gentlemau from Warren (MR. SMITH) warns us against such a collision as this will produce, expressing fears for the Federal Union, and warns us of the oath we have taken. He felt perhaps as strongly attached to the Unioni of the States as the gentleman. He had taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United' States, and would do so -at all times, oath or no.oath. As long as a thread of her glorious flag floated in the breeze, he would be found ready to- stand by it. But how was it best supported and its perpetuity ensured He would answer,, by a strict interpretation of the F'edegral compact, and a sturdy maintenance of the reserved rights of the States. lie wished he had strength to speak as strongly as he felt upon this subject. Sovereign States constitute the pillars upon which rests the national edifice. Strengthen the pillars, and you give safety to the structure; weaken them, and your enidangerit. The worst enemies of the Union are those who would encourage it to intermeddle with the local affairs of the people, and encroach upon the -rights of the States. For the purposes of external administra. tion-to enforce the great principle of free trade between the States, and to provide them with a uniforn currency, it was indispensable. But to preserve our rights and liberties, ana to regulate our internal affairs, we mustlook to the States, and must be careful notto deprive them of the means to effect the end of thetr creation. The Union at first extended over thirteen] States,. located along the Atlantic sea-board. It now extends over thirty, spreading from ocean to ocean. Every extension rendered it less fit for internal ad. mimstration, more difficult to be reached, and more powerful to oppress. The more you weaken the States, and add weight to the Fed~eral Government that rests upon -them, the more certainly you hasten the crash which builds Upon the ruins of ithe State Government a great consolidated empire. Let usthen, as State-rights-men, carefully examine: the true boundary between State aad Federavl authority,; alas preserve-She just rights of each inviolate. The~ 79 80 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSsAY, DECFMBEI 12. by placing its contract beyond State control, anid the power of the State to impose taxes justly and equally upon the property of all their citizens. This construc tion leads to no collision between the'two govern ments, but furnishes another happy illustration of the workings of our complicated yet nicely adjusted sys tem. To allow the State to tax the contracts of the' Federal Government would be to put that government in the power of the Stales, while up' on the other hand, to allow the Federal Government to withdraw from the p ower of State taxation all the property of its citizens in any way connected with or invested in such con tracts, would place t!ie States at the mercy of the Fed eral Government and hazard their very existence. The distinction taken by the Supreme Court in the cases cited, removes all danger to each, and is in per fect accordance with the spirit of other decisions of that eminent tribunal upon kindred subjects. The States have no power to tax "imports," and yet so vital does the Court hold the power of the States to tax their citizens upon all theirproperty, that they have held that'as soon as an imported article is taken into 'a S,tate and subjected to sale, it loses its character of an import, and'is liable to taxation. ~ But gentlemenfear a conflict with the general gov ernment if we claim this right in-the Constitution. He did not apprehend any such danger, but if he did, he ho ped he did not possess so' craven a Spirit as to yield up the just rights of the third Statein the Lnion, through 'ear. Sir, if it is the intention of the Federal government to override the State sovereignties, and reduce therm to mere dependent corporations the sooner that conflict comes, the better for the rights of the people and the lib'ertics of mankind. Every good citizen will then do his-duty peacefullY, camly, yet resolutely and firmly. He would next examine very briefly the legal objec tion interposed to taxing money invested by the citi zens of this State in Stocks of the State. - The objec tion was vested upon the act of 1825, which provided in substance that the State would not impose any tax upon the Stock thereby created on the interest to be paid upon it. Before proceeding to examine this act, he would notice a remark of the gentleman from Warren (Mr. SMiTH,) that we owed a great debt of gratitude to. those,who stepped forward and advanced their money to relieve our distress in time of our need. Let us see, how large this debt of gratitude due to those disinterest edpatriots is. We issued our bonds, binding ourselves and our posterity to pay one hundred cents upon every dollar, and an interest of 6 and 7 per cent semi-annual ly. Thepatriots paid for many of these bonds 52 cents upon the dollar to the State. We have not for a single dayfaild to pay them the interest as it fell due. We have for 20 years relieved those residing in this State and enjoying the benefit of our lairds from all taxation. Everv acre of our land and every cent of our property is moitgaged to pay the principal and accruing interest. If the gentleman calls this help, "mayvthe good Lord deliver us," from such in future How many of the bonds issued under that act are still outstanding I caniot say, and the Auditor of State says h e cannot-I apprehend however, that they have been inostly taken up and renewed under laws containing no pledge.. But to the Law. It is a sound rule to con~strue every law with a reference to its reason and spirit, the subject matter, and the inducemenits that proctured its enactment, We sent these bonds in~to other States and foreign countries to ie sold. W~e said we would not taxthe bonds or the inkrest to be paid upon them. If we taxe~d thie bonds, it would be a tax-to be- paid, regardless of the residence of the owner. Did Owe thereby intends to s-y, that alien these>~ bands beconma an article; Federal Government his the express power to bor row money. The StatsGovernments have the power to tax all property withiny thheir jurisdiction, except exports and imports- a power, he would remark, in dispensable to their very existence. But it was claimed that as Isoon as a citizen of a State I saw fit to place his property, ~before subject to taxation, in the stock of the IFederal Go vernment, it placed it beyond the power of the S ta te, and he could there after prevent the anamoles of enjoying the benefit of Government witho ut contribu ting t its support, and it was further claimed that the Federal Coisrts head so de caided. This he deniedfhe den ied that it was law, or had ever b een held to be law. He was cited by gentle men to the caase of McCullock v. the Stateof Maryland 4 Wheat. R. 316) decided in.1829 by the Supreme Court of the Ul.ited States. The State of Maryland passed a l aw to tax the Branch Bank of the United States located in that State. The Supreme -Court held that the tax was uanconstitutionallu l evied, in asmuch a x n the, Bank Was a eans emp aed by the,,o L General G overnment to carry into executione its dele-d ga ted pow ers, w hich was bey ond the power of State taxation. Di d t hey thereby hold that the money which a citizen of Mearyland might have invested in this means could not be taxed.? No, directly the contrary. C hief Ju sti ce Ma rshall says: "the principle does n ot extend to a tax paid by the real prop erty of the bank in common with the other real proper ty in particular State, nor to a tax imposed upon the pyoterie tary in t erest which the citizens of that- State may hold in this institution in common with o the o heproperty of the same discription thr ougho ut the State' And ag ain he says as to the bank stock belonging to its own citizens, it/still.continucs liable to state taxation as a portion of their individual prop-' erty in common with all other priVate property in the State." This case needs no comment. Instead of denying, it expressly affirms the power we claim. The gentle man next cite us to the case of Weston et al. the o e on t n s, th City Council of Charleston, 2, Pet. R. 449. The city Council, amongst other things, levied a tax of twenty fife cents on every hundred dollarsof the six and seven per cent. stock of the,United States. A majority ofthe Council held the tax illegal. Chief Justice Marshall in delivering his opinion states the ground upon which; the decision was based., He says: "The tax inquestion is a tax upon the contract subsisting between the government and the individual. It bears di rectly upon that contract, while subsisting and in full force. The flower operates, upon the contract the instant it is framed,:and must imply a right to effect that contract." Justice Johnson and Thompson not regarding it as a tax uponi the contract, dissented, and each. delivered a very able opiJiioi.. Justice Johnson says: "Why should notthe stoch of theUnited States when it becomes mixed up with the capital of its citizens, become subject to taxation in common with other capital? or why should one who enjoys allthe advantages.of a society, purchased at a heavy expense, and lives in affluence upon an in come derived exclusively from interest on government stock be exempted from taxation?" Justice rhompson says: "But great injustice is done to others by exenptingmen who are living upon the interest of their money invested in stock of the United States, from the payment of taxes; thereby establishing a privileged class of public creditors, who, living und er the protection of the government are exempted from bearing any of its burdens. A Construction of the Constitution dlrawin~g after it such consequences ought to be very palpable before it is adopted." What, then. do these cases amount-to? -They simply denfy the. right to the States to tax the means direct-0 ly employed by the Federal Governmenlt.: While the first Hae expressly, and the last imnpliedly, affirm the. right of the States -to -tat- any interest that a citizen: may-have in themn. Thus substantially preserving the powr of the General G,~vernment to borrow hiehey OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES F'RIDAY, DECEMBER 13. merchandize, and were bought by our own citizens, with money- before subject to taxation, that that money could, at their pleasure, be withdrawn from our power No, never-such a construction is at war- with the spiritc and meaning of the law. - We cann'ot presume that the General Assembly intended to go beyond their Cons.i-n tutional power. If such was the construction of the law, he denied its Constitutionality. The General Assembly could borrow money, and bind the State to repay it, with interest; but they could not barter away the sovereign power of taxation, so as to bind their successors. Even the British Parliament could not do it. much less the Lt'gislature ofa Republican State. Every act that derogates from the essential powers of asuc- E ceeding Legislature is void. This is a familiar principie and well settled. The Constitution, for the good of the people, armed the Legislature of 1825, with full power of taxation over all the property of the State. It also armed for the same purpose, every succeeding Legislature with the same power and -to the same estent. If that of 1825 could barter away a part, that of 1826 could barter away another part, and so on until there was nothing left. The State would then be forced into bankruptcy; and would present the singular spec — tacle of a govertnment run down and utterly powerless, to protect -t he p eop le in their rights and liberties, under t he workings of is b own- c ons titutional sys tem. Yes, even worsethan that the people themselves, inh their sovereign capacity, could not set it up agatin, bubt must give up to anarchy, confusion and disgrace, because their faithless servants. had sold out their inahrent, sovereign rights and powers. To such consequences, would the advocates of a privileged, monied power lead us, and this, under the syren cry of honor,faith, Lat. For one, he could not, and would not follow them. HIe had endeavored to consider this important sub-, ject in all its bearings. The irresistible conclusion to which he was brought, was that honior, integrity, good faith to the people, and republican equality, all demand that we should tax the money of the capitalists, how. ever or wherever'invested, as we tax all other property; and that we were not forbidden to do so,, either by the Constitution of theiFederal Government or by any Law of this State. He would so record his vote on all occasions,, and trust to his own conscience and the verdict of the people for justification. On motion, the Committee rose and "ported. And on motion by Mr. LARWILL, the Convention adjourned. Hon. Wasit, MzDiLL, PreSident of the Costitutio~al Conventio". SiR:-In compliance with a resolution a:dopted by tht Constitutional Convention of this, State. I have the honor to, transmit herewith copies of the sections matle by the several'standiiig comrnitges of said Convention up to this date,' On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the co mmunication and accompanying docutnents were laid on the ta ble., On -motio of n of Mr. SAWYER, the Conveat ion'resolved it self i nto a Committe e of thtie Whole, Mr LEADiBETTER in the Chair. -Mr. McCORMICKTh enes then a ddroes sed the Committee to the following affect: The report proposes Ia unifor m rule of taxation,,the - foperation of a rphich shall equ ally effeco t all. Thi s is neither more nor less th a n justice; w ealth should not complain t hat on the samre species of articles, it is compelled to pay a larger a mount i nt o the treasury, than the less favor e d cit izen, as the protection of the government is i n the one case greater than the ot her' and poverty is equally taxed on all it possesses, and although the all be small in amount yet it is all. Pride, luxury, vani ty, are proper objects for taxat ion whether exhibited in apparel, furn iture, plate or churches, and those wvho seek the display of magnificence, in either have no good grounds of accusatioo or comrnt bplaintt, sagainst- the law o f equalty. The report strike not at morality or religion, but revering both, declares that ostentation in edifices o f wors hip, i s neither; and places teo the m o n t he list o f or dinar y property. Capital invested in public bonds, d iffers f rom ordinary property; and the question is gra vely asked, if it can be assessed for taxation with out a breach of puibli faith, without sacrificing the truth, honor, and justice of the State? The subject is worthy of grav e consideration, for the honor of the State should be sacred. It is claimed that the la w of 1825 was a contract; if so, and obligatory upon us, the parties to that contract must have had lega l ability to make it. In order toh make this argument bear with all its force, the asser-i tors of the proposition claim for the Legislatur-a, pow-,. er it does not, and never did possess, sovereignty. The -Legislature is not sovereign, for above it are the Constitutions of the State, the United States, and the peo, ple. The acts of the Legi slature within these Constb-d tutions are sovereign until repealed-without then theyd are void. States cannot issue bills of credit, and the issue of a bond for credit, is a bill of credit. The Ohio Constitution recognizes the ordinary power of taxation for the necessary purposes of the govern ment alone; and if the national law does not prohibit the issue of bonds, the fundatnental law of the State grants no power to create debts for any purposes other than the one specified. Whether prohibited by then-a tional law, or withe-ld by the law of the State, the re sult is' the Ifme-a want of legitimate power in the Legislature, to create debts for extraordinory purposes and issue bonds as evidences of such debts.' The Leg islature then being deficient in ability, legally to make such a contract as that contemplated by the law, and the friends of the motion, —the contract is void. This view of the subject seemingly, but not inevi tably, leads to repudiation of the debt. i — The Legislature is the- agent, the servant of the people, and although it has contracted this debt with-~ out legal ability so to do, yet as the people of the State by the acceptance and use of the funds arisin~ l-from the sale of the bonds, have sanctioned:the sale, they are, in honor and conscienc~e, boound to re.dly, SIXTY-THIRD DAY. FRIDAY, December 13th, 1'850-9 A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Mr. REEMELIN, from the Select Committee one the subject, submitted the following, which was agreed to: "The select committeto whom was committed the resolution in reference to furnishing to this body copies of the General Laws, have had the same under considerationi and now recommend that the original resolution be stricken out and the followir g substituted in lieu thereof: Resolved, That the Secrutary of State be requested to transmit as soon as possible to this hotly, for the use thereof, such number of copies, not exceeding ten of any one sp ecies, of the general and local laws, of the volumes of Public documents, and of the journals of the two houses of the General Assembly, as can, of the different years,be conveniently spared from the State Library. All of which is re spectfully submitted Mr. CHAMBERS offered the following, which was agreed to: Resolved, That -hen the Convention adjourns, it will adjourn till Mfonday morning next at 9 o'clock. The President laid before the Convention the follow.-. iag communication from the Indiana Const-itujtional Oonvention, acegompanied by sundrydouments:.. 81 IXD,ANAPO'Ll, DiDe., l0, 18,50. Very Respe'etfully. WM.-fi. ENGLISH' Sec',, I 82 OHIO: CONVENTION DE.ATES-FnIDAY, Dec;EMBER 13. r hands such relief as, it- is in our power to give6.to - themii. It-ig our duty, as it is my pleasure, to answer fl tthat demand promptly iand efficiently. In order to do so, the burthenS of the taxes must be placed equal, ily upon all, and it matters not what form capital or* pro perty assumes; whether it ministers.to the pride, o the vanity, the arrogance. or the humility of the cite izen, it: shaI contribute.its share., Justice dends t it, and the people will be satisfied.withnothing!ess Mr. STANTON- said that as the time had arrived i which had beenappointed by the Convention' and tle b c(;mmittee appointed for that purpose, for'the reqeption of AMIN BEY in the Hall, he would move that the - Committee rise and report; which was agreed to'T: Bie' i Committee accordingly rose and reported and the chait -Was taken by the President. " - - - n Mr. SAWYER said, that while the Convention was awaiting the arrival of their foreign friend,'he had: a e propositionii to-make, which he was sure would meet, -the views-of every gentleman upsn the floor. We, ee antae, said he. members of a body delegated to the pi - frmance of a high and respon)sible duty. He looked a-upon his Peat here as an honor to hims'ell; and he felt desirous to carry away something which lie and hbi W children and his children's'children might preserve,;aS an evidence of the instrumpentality which he had -had in the peformance of this great work. He thereforew pproposed that each-member of the onvention, on its final adjournment, ~should pay for and carry away the: i desk w:tich he occuj led,-and the pen with- which he should sign this Constltution; and he had no doubt': posterity would look with pride and -pleasu"reupon' rel.. — ic is so interesting and sacred to so many glorious retle' -'ections. - 0- Mr. HORTON inquired if the gentleman from'Au glaize [Mr. SAwYkt lwoutld be willin'gthat these articls should -be- exempted from taxation. X M Mr. SAWYER said he looked upon t-he proposition of the gentleman fromn Meit [,Mr. Hoaroj as'unfaitr, It Was a poser. He would take, time to consider, it. He must own he was much pleased with the Id of carrying home something of the kind-he; would like to haveed the hairpttoni aro,nd'ho could say to ethe gint tleman fromi Licing [Mr. CASE] that it would be. inter es:tilg and valuable for us -to hand dotwh cto our p o- stert ity. (-Laughter.) -. l: is Mr. WORTHINGTON sa id there might be o ne diffieulty that -would afect the value of the gentlembnsu relies. We are told iathe sacred evo lume, "Let w nto-. that putteth on his armor,glory as he that takethn it of." It was barely possible that Ihe one h u ndred and eight gen. tlemen assembled here,might fail to' maakeiQuch a Cop, ,stitution as::would be acceptable to the'people of this; State. Inl such a case- the relics miglht 5e of so1tmevfha .doubtful value. - -' i Mr. SAWYER would ask the gentleman from'Pick- away [Mr. W'ORTSINGTOS] if, after looking' around up-: on this assembly,and seeing its intelligence and its - tr iotiosm' he could, for a moment doubt for the suess of its'labors? For his part he had no dvu bts nor fears but the Constitution would be accepted by the peoplei :and would redound to their honor' M'r.:HAW'KINS moved that all proceedings under the caU'( of the gentleman from, Turkey) be dispensed ;With, (Laughter.)- 5- - -.. Mr. MANON hoped the absenves would not be'en-. ,teeed uponl the journlal. --; ',At eleven o'clock, AM!N BEY entered the H~a~l: of tie-convntion, attended by. him-suite, the' eon: J. P." - BROWN,Drgoman,to the Amnerica-n Legation at Con:": :stantinople, and the members of th'e Committee-appoint: i .i~t by'the\ Convention for his receteion-l, and<-was intr'o-' dubgdXtthe'presidlent and the.- C'otlv~,ntlaa by;.M,~ ' LA WRENGE, chairman ofd the Committee.'':..-: them; te er i ed e ia to they have so far ratified the illegal act of their agent, but nefither truth, honor or justice can right fully cla im that they a re bound for molre thana teir redemption, and theefore their taxation wo-uld iac cord with theseehigh moral qualifications)-: Again. Th e advocateso the motitn do not pre tend that all the -bonds were issued under the laws e em pting from taxationgi ands the fact shows thatit is impracticablte to determine which were and which were not issued under the law, and are protected by it,.and it cannot in reason be -pretended that uhse, bonds, issue d w ithout- the prottion, are leg algy tex empt. - In this case it is incumbent on te party claime ingfit o the benefits of the law of'25, to bring him self within the exemption of that laW, and-show'thati his bonds were issued under it, failing so to do, and no one can show that any particuloarbond was so issued, the epresumpt ion of thes law is that -elbonds now-in existence were issued u nd er that law, whichu is believed accords with the fact. Parties claiming ex emptions must prove them, and failing soto -id, must csme withing the ordinary i r le.: - d- The Legislature possesses no r ight to ali ena te or, destroy the sources of t he rev enue of the State. Were' this,admissable i n one c ase,-it would bet so din tev ery other, and i n b a short time the revenue foim taxration w ould be entirely destroyed, and tie Treas ury bankrupt by act of Legisluature There ins a diserence betheen bonds and the money btutlwarsothe wido U. the~iymyBONDeoa o h mrcnLgto tCn inves ted in bonds, the bonds being evldemnces of debth, and the money invested in bonos beinge eviden ces of capital. This distinction is maintained by the decisions of courts, and is not now created by the friends of the report. Again. If this motion'does not prevail, it is said we violate the law in cha Ong the ate of interest; the law providing 6 per cent., which taxation reduces to about 5. This c-annot be cla imed as cthevi01afion of a contract, any more than the taxing of ordinary commercial paper. One law provides that:6 per cent shall be the rate of interest, rand normore, and under the law that rate of interest is -always accruing on such papr and is~ the'standing lega ~nrc.Ye the tax is the same in both cages,- and.the effect the, same. No one claims the last case to be a violation of contract. These reasons, in -addition to those offered by other gentlemen, are satisfactory t6o me that:we vio late no faith in assessing the money invested: in the public bonds, for ~tax, while justice demands that it should be so assessed. It is claiming that it would not be policy so to do, even-shotld public faith iustify such a proceeding. To this it is answered)t'hat,,the capital of the State - is small, not sufficient for the commercial-purposes of the leople; that money is commanding fro'm fit to 50"' percbont.; and while this is the case, it is- not wise to alienate any~portion of our capital in permanent investments, which would bring but small returns. Bringing our stocks home' would only be done by sending our capital to the distant marked, in Which those stocks now are, and would place uS very muchin the position of a young tradesman, who, expending his ready money for goods, should sell them to his, customers on1 credit. H~is books- might-show a very preftt tranact~i'0n, b'ut' his actual capital would be certainly beyond his reach. Were we in poss-ession of superfluous wealth, we., might, with benefit, iam~ate the exaple of Britain; so exultingly displayed by the friends of the motion,; but until we are so,'the wisdom of *he p6Iicy mtay' well be doubted. - 0 7, -... 'The. people of,Ohio -are bowed to tho':arth with ) the weight; of. t'mxabion, and. Trning~'frothi oi:' I I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER 1l..) tion, in my favor. I am also, most greatful for the elegant commendations which I have heard of my honored sovereign, and for the kind remarks respecting me personally. ' My visit to the United States, is wholly a mission of friendship and inquiry after useful knowledge; and no where in the United States, have I fould it responded to in a more cordial manner than in the State of Ohio. I shall esteem myself most happy indeed if it results in strengthening the relations which have always existed between the two countries, and in creating a mutual interest for each other's welfare, in their respective people. Both my government, and myself personally, are greatly indebted to my f ri end an d companion, Mr. Brown, and I am happy to fin d that he pessesses the est e em o f the citizens of his niS at ive State. Tha nking you all for your kindness to me, I beg you to believe that you have iny best wishes for the entire success of your labors, and future happiness and prosperity of your constituents. |At the close of the address, Amin Bey, a nd s uite, were conduc ted to seats on the floor of t h e H all. On motion of Mr. HAWKINS, the Convention again resolved itself into a Committee of the whole; Mr. LF-ADBETTER in the chair. Mr. STANTON said that in the few remarks which he intended to submit for the consideration of the committee, he intended to confine himself to the question presented by the gentleman from Meigs (Mr. HoRToN.) He thought it better to come up to tlhat question fully and fairly; and like skillful navigators who have been driven out of their course, to begin by taking an observation as to the latitude and longitude of the place in which they find themselves. The committee on Finance and Taxation have made a report, the section of which now under consideration reads as follows: SEc. 3. The Legislature shall make a provision for taxing money invested in the State and United States Bonds, as money at interest is taxed. We say that this proposition comes in direct conflict with an existing law of the State, so far as regards those bonds of Ohio, which have been already issued. The gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RAN.NY,) in order to i.ake assurance, doubly sure, and take a bond of fate, not only for all the past but for all future time, in order that there should be no doubt of the fact of a conflict between this constitution and the existing laws and contracts of the State, has introduced, by way of amendment, the words " now or~hereafter," so that the section as amended now reads: "The Legislature shall make a provision for taxing money now and hereafter invested ill State and United States bonids,'" &c. The gentleman from Meigs has moved an amendment, to strike out the words " State and,"so that the section, if his amendment shall prevai,, will read: 'The Legislature shall make a provision for taxing money now or hereafter invested in United States bonds,%" &c. It is said, by gentlemen upon the other side of the hall, that there is a portion of the stocks of the State, now outstanding, that are not covered by the law of 1825, nor by any of the lass subsequently enacted which refer to the pledges of that act. It may be that there have been a few issues, not in express terms, brought within its provisions. Those that have been issued under that law, we have no right to tax, inl any c~ontingency. 1 wish to call the attention of gentlemen especially to the provisions of the law of 1825. After providing for thsecreation of the loan and the issue of the bonds —after pledging for the payment of the interest and the final redemption of the principal, the The PRESIDENT addressed him as follows: Sir: The representatives of the people of Ohio, assembled in Gonveintion, to revise the Constitution of the State, directed on yesterday, that a committee be appointed to wait u pon and invite you to take a seat within the ba r of thi s c hamber, whenever you might be pleased to visit them, drin yuring your st ay in this city. A s their org an, it now gi ves me great pleasure to welcome you among us,and to extend to you,and to those who acc ompany you,the privileges and hospitalities of this Convention. The object of your mission to this cou ntry being that, as I u nder stand, of an inquiry into the nature and workings of our free institutions, cannot but conmand t he admirat ion and sympathy of our c onstituents, as well as the admiration and sy mpathy of every memo ber of this body. It is an obje ct, sir, that is not only flattering to our national pride, but one that is worthy of the enlighten ed an d distinguished sovereign, who, amidst the dangers that were thereby incurred, dared to afford to Kossuth and his glorio s ore associates, an asylulm within his d omi n ions, wh en, overcome in theirlast great s truggl e for the liberty and independence of their f atherl and, they w ere pursu ed by the sword of ty ranny and oppression. In the d eliberations of this body,you will see a beaut iful illustration of the nature and advantages of republica n institution s. The Constitution under which this great and flourishing State first came into theUnion, is undergoing an entire revision. The people in thei r repres enta tive, and yet s over eign capacity,are assemb l ed in council, quie t ly engaged in engrafting such changes into the Supreme org anic law of the land, as sens e and experi ence have demon strated to be necessary and proper for their own happiness. They have been impelled to this by no PARTICULAR grievance, by no outbreak or th reatened revolution, bat by that s elf renovati ng and self correcting principle that steadily progresses wit h t he march of mind, and which constitutes t he strength and chie f excellence of all governments onsi on that are founded exlusively on the popular wi ll. In conclusion, I congratulate you, sir, on the advantages you must necessarily derive from being aceompanied in your tour through the country by one of our own most accomplished and enlightened citizens. Hon. Mr. Brown, in behalf of Amin BBey (who does not speak the English language) then read thefollowing reply: R& NSL ATION.] MR. PRESIDENT-I am greatly obliged to the gentleman of this Convention, for the privilege which they have been pleased to grant me, of visiting it, during its sessions. I participate warmly, in the deep interest which the members of this Convention must naturally all feel, in the first object for which they have been assembled here. To form a Constitution in so great and flourishing aState as that of Ohio-and in which its future prosperity,and the happiness of its citizens must greatly depend, is a task of the most serious and important nature, and consequently calls for all your solicitude. I am most happy to be here during the Convention, and to have an opportunity of seeing assembled for such a purpose, the Representatives of the citizens of Ohio, whose kind hospitalities I have so much enjoyed. I beg leave to express my warmest thanks for the flattering and kind language of the Committee which was so kind to call upon me yesterday, to present me with a copy of the friendly intentions of the Conven 7 f 83 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER 13. s instalments of interest, shall they be told tliat the sum : has been reduced by a tax of one, two or three per cent. e -not upon the bonds, but upon the mioney which their s ancestor invested in their purchase? Is this honest? - Is it reputable for the State of Ohio to play the part of e the witches iln Macbeth-those juggling fieids Who s "pather in a doul I seniseand keep the word of promise to the ear, to breaki it to the hope"'? It is wrong- it is e criminal for the State of Ohio to set up a mere tech- nical evasion, to get rid of a solemn promise. But t there is no room,for such an evasion. It is impossible. Whether you tax the thing itself or the money it rep resents, will it not equally reduce the value o'f the ars tidce T Will capitalists give as much for the bonds in ? the market as if they or the money invested in them s were free from taxation? Wil they give as )much-by - one per ceit? Certainly they will not. TI'hen in the t very teeth of your piopositioil,you are forbid. It isno matter how little or how much, youti attempt to reduce the value of the article in question, when by the express , words ol the contract, you are prohibited from reducing 1 it at all; and it makes no difference whether you pro pose to reduce it ten, twenty, or only one per cent. , The gentleman from Trumbull (Mr. RANNEY) at. tempted, yesterday, to give us some authority upon this subject. Yes; he read the dissenting opinioni giv en by some judge who thought that money invested in . the stocks of a Bank might be taxed, although the l stocks themselves were exeintt. There were however, l two difficulties in the way of his authority; first, the opinion which he read was not the law of the case, and was overruled by the other judges; and seconidly,that * in that case, it did not appear that there was any prow mise or obligation o0i the part of the State not to tax, or not to reduce by any Legislation, the value of the stocks. w Anothe.r principal objection made by gentlemen is, that the State had no power to make the exenmption which it undertook to make. True it is-so they say, that the General Assembly did undertake to exe'rnpt that for that purpose they exercised all the power which they bad; bht that the exemption is void for the want of sufficient power to carry it into effect. I desire to call the attenition of the committee, for a moment, to the practical result of his doctrine. If the State has the power to borrow money, to stipulate the terms of payment and the rate of interest, and to make all those stiliulations and provisions binding upon itself, has it not the same power to' contract to do 110o act by which the value ofthe credits it has created shall be re duced? If it has not, it has reserved to itself the pow er to do by an indirect act of repudiation that which to do directly would be an act of dishonor and crime. Mr. Chairman; it is too late now to say thiat the Legislature has no right to pass a law creating a loan, or that for this purpose- one General Assemnbly may pass a law which a subsequent Legislative body may not repeal. The General Assembly ol 1825 passed an act, by the authority of which stocks to the amount of about sixteen millions of dollars were issued and sold. We had the money and used it; and shall we now say in this constitution that another Legislature shall repeal the latv by virtue of whiichi that money was borrowed, and thus discharge ourselves of all liability to pay it? Here, in the law, is the obligation to repay the money, and to abstain from taxation; but, says the gentlemen, the obligation is void, for the want of power to make the contract. ~hey, as attorneys =for the Stale, interpose a plea of infancry, to avoid the debt The State had not arrived at ad~ult age —it vw.as not twenty-five years old perhaps. Well, let us test this question. I go and buy of some tall young gentleman, who bears all the marks of maturity, a farm. I pay two thousiand dollars for it, and take possession. The- next day tolls of th e canals, the water reit$, and other sums arising from different funds, the law goes on..to say mAnd the faith of the State is hereby pledged, that the tax hereby levied shall n ot be a ltered or reduced so ar to irtnpai te s e ui e r e, for the seurity, hereby pledged for the ay me,t of t he i nte rest, and the final redemption of the prist,ipal of tie Ssums to be borrowed by virtue of this act; and that no tax shall ever be levied by the Legis~ lature, or undetr th e authority of this State, on the stock to be created by virtue oi this act, nor on the in terest which may be payable thereon; and fur ther, thao the valu e o f the s aid s tock shall be il no wise impaired by any Legislative act of this State." Now, Mr. Chairman; what is the meaning of this provision made bv the General Assembly' of Ohio First it auLthorizes the issue of the bonds, and provides a fund for the payment of the interest and the final re demption of the principal; secondly, it provides thal they shall never be taxed, either in themselves or the interest payable upon them; and thirdly, lest there should be, a possibility of doubt or a chance for evasion, it decrees that their value shall be- in ino wise impaired by any Legislative act whatever. Mr. Chairman, there is one thing in this debate, which is, to say the least, remarkable. In all the discussion that has taken place, by gentlemen over the way, not one word has been said upon the prohibition against any act irapairing the value of these securities The gentleman from Trumbull (M'4r. RA~NNrEY) noticed the provision against taxationl; so did the gentleman from Adarmis, (Mr. McCoRmicK,) and the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) but neither of those gen tlemiten had oneI syllable to offer, coucerning the clause which pledges the faith of the State against any act of its own that shall'impair the value of thie stocks of the State. It was argued by the gentleman from Meigs, (Mr. HORTON,) WtlO moved the amendment now under consideratioi),thiat the State having issued these securities, thrown them into the market of the world, invited capitalists of all countries, to invest their funds in them, under a pledge of thie honor of the State, taken the money, used it, and had the benefit of it, we have made and concluded a solemn coatract, w hlich, under no circumstances, and il no possible con.tingenecy, we have a right to anilu!-that we cannot enter into a bond, and not be bound by its obligations. This, gentlemen upon the other side. admit, but seek fo evade its application. They do Dot seek to tax the bonids'-so they say: oh, no; but we may tax the money that was invested il the purchase of the bonds. Tifis, Mr. Chairman, though I do iint like to speak in terms of disrespect, either of gentlemen or their arguments, seems to me to be, at best, but a pitiful evasion. What was meant by this solemn uledge, given by thie supreme legislative power of a svereigit State? What was iutended? Was it contrived as a mere bait to lure unwary men into all itivestiinpuit of their money, to clheat them afterward? Let me illustrate. Suppose I was a citizen cf the State of Ohio. in 1825, at the tinge of the enactment of this law! had il i,ly hands a smnall amount of means, which I was seeking to invest. I wanted to lay out my money in something that would not be subject to taxation —so.,,ething that required-little c-are or skill in its management. I weas willin,g to pay a premium —to pay more than thee amount whtichl I received. I saw the State about to enter upon a large and expensive system of public improvements. I knew that the taxes for many years to come, would lbe heavy and opp~ressive. -I saw the promise of the State that her securities should be exempt from taxation. Well, sir; when l Jam dead, and my children, with the bonds ill their hands, present themeelves at the Treasury of the State, to receive their.^ i t t t t a d e d 0 p n a a i 84 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRIDAY, DEC,EMBER 13. he brings his suit in ejectment against me, and ousts the consideration, or of doing equity to the other conme from the premrnises, because he was under age, and tractitig party. the deed was void for the want of legal ability to coiI- Mr. Chairman, if we can keep gentlemen to the distract. I file nmy bill against him to refuiid the purchase cussioni of this view of the subject, it. would seem as if money. Would any court utnderHeaven allow him to we could have no difficulty il convinlcing them that keep the money and have the land? If ie seeks equity they are ill the wrong. If you desire to tax the intermust he not also do equity? Such a doctrine would be est or the principal of our State securities, let the Genagainst all laws and all constitutionls. Is there really eral Assembly give notice to that effect-call in the no power in legislation to place the party contracting inll bonds-pay them up fully and honestly —issue others the situation where we found him? The idea of stand- that shall be understood to be subject to taxation. ilig up here and denying an obligation of this kinid,ar- When men take them with the knowledge that they gues a species of Panic faith such as I naver expected are to be taxed, there is no difficulty, and no wrong; to have heard upon this floor. hut whiilst we have the money and keep it and then in But, Mr Clhairmnan, hIow is this answered? The violation of the strongest pledge that it is in the power gentlemian from Knox, and the gentleman from Trum- of the State to make, subject it to taxation, we practice bull, ask us, with an air of trumrpli, Don't youl tax the upon the mioralsof a pirate and not upon those of lionpoor man? Whiy then not tax the Millionaire? What est men. has that to do with the question? Tile inquiry is But he would pass that. whether the State has a right to break a proalise given He never could understand the wisdom of a State not to tax her owin bonds. When the gentlemen show taxing what they owe. He had heard of individuals mnie that there is a proposition to tax the poor and exon- living upon the interest of what they owed; but he erate the rich, I will go with them against it; but when believed it was never regarded as an ap,proved mnode of t is a question whether we shall keep the plighted fitianciering; and it was his judgment, that it could be faith of the State, I will allow no considerations of no better int a State, than in the individual. riches or poverty to interfere with my sense of justice. Suppose the State were now going to borrow money. Such an appeal to the mere passiolns and prejudices of If they were going to borrow with ali honest purpose, men, I d(d not expect to hear from the gentleman from they would say, when they issue their bonds, that they Trurmbultl. shall be subject to taxation, in the hands of the citi Mr. RANNEY said that his first proposition was zen holding them, as all other capital; and then, of that the State had a right to tax the property of its citi- course, every capitalist proposing to buy, would make zens whether invested in State bonds or not; and, sec- his calculation as to what would be the amount of the ondly, that 11o State call, for any consideration, barter tax, and he would give just that much less for bonds away its essential attribute of sovereignty-the right subject to taxation. to tax. The gentleman might make what else of it But now, if the State wanted to borrow twenty millhe pleased, and if he chose, he might build up a man ions, and found that, by throwing nineteen millions of of straw, to batter itdow i again, bonds into the market, not subject to taxation, she Mr STANTON. I understand the argumentofthie could sell them for twenty millions, the question would gentleman iow to be, that the State has no power to be, whether it would be better to sell twenty mil,lions exempt any species of its securities from taxation. To of bonds, paying the same interest and subject to taxthat argument, 1 only answer by reading the Statute. ation, or only nineteen millions paying no tax. It was ably answered by the gentleman from R oss, I spose the average rate of taxation over the Sate ] s uposeteaeaert eofrtc over the State (Mr. GREENv,) yesterday. Hesays the right of taxation is about one per cent. is a suprenme power. -I grant it, but I say this, that The Statepays six per centuin on her bonds The The State ~~p a y i perennohr bond. Tholer while welare availing oursesves of our part of the con- taxes will reduce it to five per cent to the bond holder tract, it is unjust to endeavor, even by the assistance of But the one per cent whicht ought to go into the State our sovereignty. to get rid of our portion of the Treasury, or rather never to have been taken from it responsibility. Surely the gentlemasi will concede that will be reduced by expenses of collection, hazards of the right to refrain from taxation is as 6sovereign as the defalcations, &c. right to tax. For example, the State has sixteen millions of bonds Let us, then, come now to the second proposition of outstanding. The interest at six per cent is nilety six the gentlemen. I care little for the questionl, whether thousand dollars. The tax at one per elt will be six thousand dollars. T~~~ie ta toeprcn il be sixa Strte may legally bind herself and htier luture legis teen thousald dollars. Oii this sum you will i)ay your lation by a contract in which she has received a fair County Treasurer about three per celnt for collection. and full coisideration. As the forcing the cosmpliatice mat ing $480. Would it not be better to issue five of a State to such a contract, is only to a limited degree per cent bolnds at once, and save the expenises of colin the power of any tribunal. A State has only to will lecting.. an act of repudiationl and it is dote. If we determine For these reasons, I am opposed to the section as it not to pay the bonds which we have issued, 110no power now stands, and in favor of the amendinent of thle genon earthi can enforce such payment. If that is to be tieman from Meigs(Mr. HORTON.) The state should by dole, let us go directly about it, and wipe out the all Deans fulfill her contract ill good faith. She has whole. The morality that woulil repudiate a part, dif- exercised an ordlinary power of sovereignty- borrorwfers only ill degree fromi that which would repudiate ed monley. It is a power which has been repeatediy the whole. It is of the same kind. You proposed the exercised by the Goverumeutof the United S.ates, and loan, made the ternis, made the exemption, received the probably every State ill the Union, as well as almost money, used and enjoyed it, and newv the question is, every other goverument ancient or moderl, Republioau, will you perform your part of the contract? In an- or Monarchical. swer, the gentleJnan lrom Trumbull tells us we have And for as now to undertake to repeal or alter this no right to tax the poor man aud exonerate the million- law, so as to discharge us from all obligation to pay the aire; and upon the issue thus made up. he tells uCs he whole or any part of the money borrowed upon the is williug to take the stump, and go before the people. faith of it, is an outrage which would shock the moral I tell himi that.e had better do it somewhere else than sense of every honest man il the State. on the waters of Mad River. They talk of avoidingi Mr. REMELIN. I do not intend in the remarks I the contract, but not a word do we hear about restoring shall make upoii the subject now before us, to enlarge .85 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER 13. upon the points that have been already made by those an(] turned canal digger and turnpike builder by whole. upon our side of the question. I deem itan unreason- sale. able position that no General Assembly could deprive a Our General Assembly got as crazy as "the rest of subsequent General Assembly of the power to tax. All mankind" upon these subjects, and improvement upon General Assemblies getting their power the same improvement were projected-all initended to makethe fountain, possessed the same power equally; and to ad- people rich, not by their Own earnings, but by drawing mit that one General Assembly might contract away upon those of their children that came after them. the taxing power upon any one species of property, In 1839 an additional law Was passed in reference to would lead to the absurd proposition that one General borrowing money, and the pledge in reference to taxa Assembly might, by the assumption of improper.pow- tion renewed. The State continued in its headlong ers, irrevocably deprive all its successors of that power. policy —our State Stocks having already suffered in ttie Nor do I desire to enlarge, particularly, upon the estimation nf capitalists, till i. 1842, we were brought point that even if such contract was valid, still no toa dead stand by the loss of our credit-our Stocks such contract now exists. I shall not discourse upon having sunk to be worth only 52 cents on the dollar in th'eIor akt The last loan was made in the the legal positions; but I do desire to say a few words the New York market. The last loan was made in the upon the moral aspet of the question. Spring of 1843.with no pledge upon the subject of tax upon the oral aspet of the uestion.ation. Permit me, however, to ask my friends on this side 18 years preceding, the stocks of Ohion. of the house, wvhether they have not, by this time, had fluctuated in various ways. Up to 1836 our cred found out that the opponents of the proposition now it was good, but from t hat time the headlong course before us, are sailing under false colors; and are en- deavoring to frighten us by high sounding phrases. we pursued upon the subject of internal improvements eavorng to rgten us y gh sounding phrases ad frightened the capitalists; and it took all kinds of Did you not notice a few days ago, how the friends of financierlug to keep the State government in operation the bolnd holders of the State of Ohio, did it solemn The value of the original bonds of 1825 was impaired phalanx vote, not only once, but twice, yea, three or by subsequent legislation, and every dollar added to the four titnes, for various propositions, disguised in various public debt., was to that extent, a violation of the orig ways-all of them, on their faces, looking to the ex- inal contract- that i if the position of the getlean ception of some particular property, but realy intend- onrtat is ort h m ed to ge somepowe for he GeeralAssemly ~from Logan, (Mr. STANTOrN) is correct. Why, Mr. ed to get some power for the General Assembly to Chairman, every railroad that the people of Oh1io have exempt what it pleased. That was the opening battle of sinc e m ade wi th their ow moey every thong that the campaign. Exemption, of various kinds, and the emd t er ow'e er n t '' i ~~~~tends to render of less value, asny of the i proveaniepts futiller the power given to the Legislature to do so, the of th e State-they and their proeeds being pledged to l~eterwa th gratob~ject of our opponents.' They of ethe State-they and their proceeds being pledged to better-was the great object of our opponen ts. TheyI the redemption of the bonds-mighlt be called "'impairthen fought, under the mask of religion and morality; iug the original value of the bonds." In fact, to carry and had they won that battle, they would, perhaps, not out the doctrine of the gentleman from Logatn, we now be~ fighting under the tusek of "pligfhted faith." Ishould have to stop the exercise of all powers of gov It is one of the characteristics of that party, erument for fear that it might disturb the exceedingly Mr. Chairman, to fight under high sounding phrases -to,mkea b. noise, and "a great ado,aboutnothII nice'obligationis Sunder which w'e lie to our creditors. -to make a big noise, and "a great ado about nothng." Sir, the orignal creditors of the state of Ohio have ItrustMr. Chairman,that since wewerenotfrighten-, all disappeared from the records. Most of them are ed from our duty by the high sounding phrases of "re- in their graves, and those who now hold the stocks of ligion and morality," that we will still keep our senses Ohio, have bought them, some for 60, solne for 70, even under the reiterated cry of -'repudiation and pligh- sonte for 80, sone for 90-and some few have purchias.ted faith." I will, at least, endeavor to show that thei ed above par. Some of our bond holders have lost and original contract between the two parties involved in -some have gained by the purchase and sale of Ohio this controversy, is completely changed, that the orig- state stocks. They have sometimes been affected by inal obligations are catncelled, not only legally so, but1 the money market, but oftelln, very often by the course morally so. I will show, that so far from any creditor taklen upon the subject at home. Those who lent us of the State of Ohio, standing, either now, or after the money between 1825 and 1836. were sacrificed by an exercise of the taxing power by the General assembly, improvident policy, pursued between 1836 and 1839. worse than he cid originally, that each and all of them All our creditors suffered between 1840 and'43 by an will really occupy a far more profitable and lucrative improper course pursued by the Ohio Life and Trust position. I shall answer the question propounded to Company, under the unfortunate orders of Alfrde us so'confidently, this morning, by the gentleman from Kelly. (sensation.) Logan, (Mr. STANTON,) "has the State any right to im- Whatever might be the moral obligation to our orig pair the value of those Stocks?" I shall show that no inal creditors, that obligation has been cancelled by such result will follow, and that the State of Ohio, has,- their own act-we call no longer find them; all trace not only in the past, but even if she should exercise to them having'been destroyed by themselves, they the taxing power, will not in future impair the value of having cancelled at the Register office in New York our Stocks. vthe original bonds. Of one thing I am sure, that the I ask the attention of the Convention for a few mo- present bond-holders of Ohio have' been enriched by the ments to a very brief recapitulation of the history of action, not only of our General Assemblies, but of that Ohio, as far as relates to the history of this subject. of the great body of our people. The value of tihe The first loans of Ohio were made in I825, under stocks they hold have been enhanced from 40 to 100 the pledge so repeatedly urged upon us by gentlemen per cent. To them no such pledge of exemption from on the opposite side. Some $4,000,000 were borrow- taxation has been given. They have received at our ed distinctly under that pledge; the State subsequently hands nothing but benefits; they have accepted of every continued to borrow up to 1836, for the purposes of benefit conferred upon them since 1843; and they have making the Ohio Canal from Portsmouth to Cleve- purchased their bonds, not under the laws of 1825, but land; and the Miami Canal fron Cincinnati to Dayton. under the laws as they now stand in the State of Ohio, Some five millions were borrowed for that purpose- and these laws contain no provision for exemption from but not all of this money'was borrowed with the pledge taxation. already adverted to. From 1836 the State ceased to Sir, we have not only fulfilled our obligations bythe borrow, frugally and sparingly, as it had done before, most careful regard to our credit, and by the most 86 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRtoAY, [)ECE:MBER 12 scrupulous pat ment of our interest, and often at the greatest sacrifice; our people have been tile most pa- tient in tax-paying; yea, they have borne taxation as w patiently as lamrnbs;-yes sir. we have not only fulfilled all our obligations, but we have gone further. We have conferred upon our bond-holders additional privileges, for which as yet we have received no recom- pense. Our frieadsof the opposite side will contend, I suppose, that we have the right lo change the contractt in favor of our creditors, but when we attempt to do a little justice to ourselves, that then we are attacking the "vested rights" of somebody. Strange, Mr. Chairman, that our friends can see, 'vested rights" only in that species of property that i finds its sympathies in men's pockets. Strange that tile vested, sovereign rights of the people, in defending themselves against the encroachment of power, finds ino advocate with them. Strange too, Mr. Ciairman, that our friends at the tpposite side conceive so fully and so minutely, every oing that tends to injure the bond-holders. How invesitive is their genius in finding arguments, or rather sophistries they should be called-t,o sustain the cause of the bond-holders-! Not one amongst them has men-e tioned thie fact that our bond holders have been benefited by Ohio Legislation-not one ot them has stated to us, althoutgh well aware of the fact, that not only the [)riciple of the debt has been increased to our bond hiolders, bat the interest has been punctually paid, and in addition to that, we have conferred upon them the especial privilege of ban'king. The holder of the bonds of this State can now make not less than 20 per cent. upon his original investment! And the capitalist who D bought our bonds last summer, understood that very well, for they lent their money very freely, and without exactly any pledge upon the subject of taxation. Yea sir, I wall go further; I hold it to be an incoentro vertable fact that some of those who held bonds, contaiin g a plede ntot to be taxed, exchanged them for i bonds containing no such pledge. This fact, of which I I am just inforined,standsout in bo!d relief in this dis- cussion. It shows that the zeal of the friends of the bond-holders have out-run their discretion. Sir, I ask, why this culpable-neglect ini stating the acts tending to the exoneration of the -State from all rnoral turpitude in this regard? Why is it that our friends of the opposite side love the gingling of high sounding phrases and pointed epithets, all of them tending to impugn the moral feelings of the people of Ohio? Sir in the laniguage of Robespierre, when he pointed his finger at Vergniaud, " I Save no con- fidence iii the imen that have such good memories of the catalogue of crimnies charged upon the people." So do I doubt your patriotism. So do I doubt the correctness of your judgment; for I can see no sym pathies within your hearts but the sympathies fort the " almighty dollar." Your sympathies are againstG the people, and these who have watched you closely have clearly marked this peculiarity of your action. Permit Lmze,'ir. Chairman, to protest against that mio.nstrous doctrine, that no miatter how much power the GCenieral Assembly may assume to itself-ino matter how many of th~erights of the people or of Govermnent they may have bartered array, once done it is krevocabily do)ne, and the power to rectify has departed fromn the people. Irgard this, Sir, as a revolutionary body bound to -inouire into the (}ritinal elements of society, to rectify tile errors of the past, and provide new safeguards for the people. In this instance we finrd an improper exercise of power on the part of the General Assembly,^ anld it is not only our right to resume the original power, but our duty to enforce its exercise here. after The doctrine of the gentleman from Logan will unavoidab ly lead to the subversion of all our freedom, fo r our General Assembly tight barter away one right and another, till e very vestige of freedom, and all proper power s o f our Governmeit, might be lost by an imprudent assumption of power. And in this connection, for fear I forget it, Iwill -say to the gent leman from R oss (Mr. GRaEN) that his alt - lusion yesterday, to the commissio ner now traveling through this c ount r y as an agent fro m th e Sultan of Turkey and whom we had t hi s morni ng i n o ur midst, was exceedingly unfortun ate. The present Sultan of Turkey and his father before him, if they have deserved and received the plaudits of the'present genera t io n, it is, because they have dared to t ake into their own hands powers which their predecessors h ad barteied away, and to reform long stan ding abuse s. I he admonition given to us, by the gentleman from Ross, by institu. titng the comparison is out of place, for so far from being intimidated by the allusion, the course of the Su'tan of Turkey as the great reformer of that empire, should cheer us on il the path of duty. Another allusion of the gentleman from Ross,lI Will briefly advert to-it is the courage he claimed for himself in during to defend the bond holders from the aggressions of the radical democrats. Sir, it does not take much courage to be the friend of the-rich man, incr does it take much courage to be'the servile tool of those peculiar interests of Ohio, which claim exemption from the burthenis ofsociety, while they are enjoyilngexclusivet privileges. It does take courage to defend the rights of men-it takes but little to defend their interests! I have watched menmbers of the Legislature and members, of this Convention asthey passed out of thishall lociked arm in arm with the men whose interests are at stake during discussions such as these. I have noticed the smiling countenances as they would congratulate eac,h other upon the manner in which their interestshai been defended. No such cheerinlg meets a radica democrat-he must discharge his duty fearlessly, exi pecting no reward except that of his conscience. The only reward he will get is abuse from the enemies of the people. Permit me to say that one great error in this discussion on both sides, has been, that it has been treated as a case between two' individuals. The State, in my humble opinion, occupies an entirely different posttion, and if I were called upon to compare it at ally should compare it to a case of an Attorney with special powers, on the one hand, and the creditors on the other. The government'of the State of Ohio wa a government of limited powers. The language of the present Constitution of Ohio is expressly -that all powers not granted are reserved to the people." Thle creditors of the State of Ohio must be dee~med to have known the first law of the land. That Constitu tion was the especial power of attorney and if the General Assembly exceeded its especial powers, and in doing so, either usurped the power of another de partment of government, or of a subsequent General Assembly; it was certainly optional with each subse quent General Assemblvy to resume the power thuis improperly attempted to be withdrawn from'it; and muctl more obvious is the right of this convention to act in the premises as he, at the particular time deem ed right and proper. I will not enlarge upon this point; it is sufficient for me to say that the Constitu tion gives no power such aS is claimed, and, therefore, the power was reserved to the people, and the people, having met in Convention, or, in other words, met~ to institute an inquiry into the original elements of So ciety, have a right to act in the pre~mises, doing not only justice to others, but also justice to themselves. 2 No greater error can be committed in.pOlitical discus sicns, than to suffer improper comparisons ito be made, t i t s b 8 9 t I sa t 87 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES FRIDAY, DECEMBER 13. such as is attempted to be made in this instance. To compare the State to arn individual, is begging the question, and to call it the plea of infancy, or "pleading the baby act," because the people have dared to institute an inquiry into the conduct of their government, and have expressed a willingness to direct a more proper exercise of power in future than has taken place in the past, is also begging the question. It is an insult to the people, and misstating the true position. Sir, I have looked this matter square in the face- I will not do any thing that will in the least look like repudiation, or that will squint, even towards a viola tion of our plighted faithl; but I am clearly of the opin ion that no such charge can be laid at our doors, and that the clause proposed to be inserted in the Coirstitution by the report of the finance committee, is clearly right-legally right and morally right. The gentleman from Logan, not satisfied with underrating the government under which he is going to live, in his own mind, must institute compiriscis odious in themselves, and doubly nu)just to tile people of this Sta e. He proudly asked "what government has ever before commnitted an act equal to the one now proposed?" I answer him that England did in her late, "income tax." France did by the conversion of her four per centrents into three anid a halfper cent. And England too, has frequently converted bonds bearing hiriher interest, into bonds bearing lower interest. Mr. STANTON. My position is that when a goverfiment thus proposes to alter the termrns uponl which it borrowed money, it should tender to the bonid-hold.er the amount originally borrowed. Mr. REEMELEN. I expected that the gentleman would make just such an explanation as this. He w"as exceedingly severe upon those of our friends who tried to draw a distinction between thle mioney invested and tile bond itself, and that part of his speech was the most tsuccessful part of hIis work, but )OW we find the getltliemati himself attenmpting to draw distinctions between tweedle dum and twtveedle-dee. The governments of Englanid and of France know that the passage of the act tendering to their bon)d-holders tile amount of their bonds, or a reduction of inler.st,was compulsory in its character-they knew that the bond-hlolders did not want the money-they knew that the state of the mroney market was such as compelled their bznd-hlolders .o accelt a reduction of the interest. This was ineither denied ill the Parliament of England nor that of France; and had I been there I should have acted upon precisely the same doctrine which they adopted, that ,whenever a fair and equitable chance occured to relieve a people,grouind down by taxes, by the reduction of interest, it was the duty of the govenrment to do so. Stock-mrnongers take advantage of every thing that may turn up in their favor in the course of time and 1 can see no reason why the government should not do justice to itself whenever it can do so without doing downright violence to its creditors. So far from its being true that other governiments have not changed the original contracts existing between themselves and their credi tors, I doubt whethler there is a government now in existence which has not done so. I know that tihe govern h done it, and the governmei nt of Prussia has done it byA h compelling a part of the revenues to be paid in the bonds of the government. In fact sir, each and all of these governments seem to havte viewed the relations between themselves and their bond-holders in the proper light. The boird-holders exacting all they could i b n the first instance, making very often, severe barga in s against the State, and the government would, on the other hand, whenever a chance occurred to re-imburse themnselves for previous losses, if they could do so, with out violating, too vlrossly, their plighted fa ith, re-adjustg the mutual relati on upon such a ba sis as, at the, time might a ppear ju st and proper. In fact ther e has, always been soimelinmplied under standing of this kind between governments and their creditors The creditors looking to the goverlnment and the interest derived from the State as their ann Iual pension; the government, on th e ot he r hand, looking upon its creditors as the men on whom the y must relytr when they might get i nt o finars ncial difficu It ories. Soe times the creditors would suffer, sometimes the govern, ment. Stocks would rise and fall, arid, in fact, both have been working very carefully into each other's& hands, even when they pretended most to quarrel. A nc. here I desire to enforce a point that I shall make in this controversy upon the minds of ill\' fellow mem bers-it is that all duties incurred by t;e States for speculative improvements, are incurred under an implied joint risk. Mr. MASON. And what does the gentleman from' Hamilton mean by "an implied jciuti risk I"' Mr. REE.MELIN. I will explail to tile g entleman. In all cases of that kited before the loan is made, the borrower furnishes and the creditor examines into the probab'-ility of the profitableness of the undertaking, The creditor loans his orlOlley not so Dmuch on,thie faithl of tihe government as on the expected pro)fitableniess of the undertaking. For ilstan~ce, New York state stocks are in higher denianid than those of any other state in the Ullion. These stand mucel higher than those of her next door jneighbor,-Pennisylvania, not because any body doubts thie willingness of Pennsylvaniai to pay; it is because every body knows that her state, works are not as productive as those of New York, and her ability,. therefore, to pay, is doubted. So it is be tween Ohio and Inidiaina-inone'doubts the ultimate; payment of tile debt in either of these states. Because Ohio has so much better regulated finances that) Indialla-because the wealth of her citizens has become better developed and her public works ate complettd; it is for this reason, that our credit is better and our stocks higher than those of Ilndiana, and not because she is thought to be mnore willirmg to pay than our sister state. The bond holder expects, as a matter of course, that as a misfortune strikes a state to which he has loaned money, either as a result of financial mismanagement, or of unforeseen circutmstances, he is willin)g to submit to his fate because he considers himself and his money identified with the prospects of the state of which he is acreditor. Apply this reasoning to our ,own case. The State of Ohio engaged in speculations on internal improvements in 1825; things went on well enough till 1b37.'I'The pres-es of tlhe party interested with tile capitalists, persuaded the General Assembly to go mdore largely into the system of public improvements. "Lobby mnembers" from capitalists and from men interested in the particular imnprovements, kept the ball rnoving; they produced the unjnatural excitement that has resulted in the loss of the State-the State became the victim to thie persuasions of tlhe capitalists and the speculators, and the capitalist became the victim of his own snares. T'he State met loss upoii loss, and I suppose, to estimate the loss of the State at doll1ars, tnillions of dollars is not over estimating it. All the original bonld holders sold out at asacrifice, thJe new bond holderts purchassd under par. The State has since made up the deficits by taxation, or in other words the generation of the peresenlt time, whose mlon~y has beenl spent by thle p~revious generation, without its opinion having beeni askied upon the e~xpenditlure, is ,ow ready to pay a principal and interest uponI that deF. I, asking only that since it was a joint e.rror that the implied joint risk, which the original bondl holders~ I tis OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES FRIDAY, DECEMBER 13. so far as they are concerned, have met, should be made hleave never been so excited as when their darling has by a trifle from the presert bond holders, while the been touched lioa's share of the loss should fall upon the peo- Mr. STANTON. Upon this floor I am the reprepie. sentative of the citizens of Logan county. They own I doubt sir, if the bond holders, if present themselves no stock, as far as I know, nor dohold a dollar of those especially who have enjoyed tilhe privilege of that species of property. banking Lpon State bonds, whether one of them would Mr. EEMELN. I understand denials of that M. REELNd. Th gentlersanhod dnoalstock bthbeis object to conitributing-his mite towards making up a kind. The gentean may hold no stock, but e is loss incurred by the common government.' That I am amember of the party which has always sustained right in this principle, if correctly understood and not the interests of the stock-iongers Why, sir, up to - wthiafew i nterss bof the satoc-ogr.Wy,wt which tha inisiiiterpreted,I refer to the case in Inidianaand Illinois within a few months back the party with which that winthi ewmonth bacts fiercelty eiefth claicsho thxat wherein both cases the bond holdershavecomne forward gentleman acts, fiercely denied the claims of Texas getoemany parts ofiNewcl Mexicobu the claimstof Texa and shouldered a part of the losses. The letter of their to any prt of New Mexico, but the moment Uncle agent, and the speeches made in the Iindiana Legislature San oiled their palms with a little flianciering by upon that subject, as well as in Illinois, clearly indi- the Texas indemnity, consisting of ten millionsof cate that the people of Illinois and of tidiana, regard- United States boids-the moment the Texas scrip UniedcStaters anWllds-tremoent cataesTexs scraipt ed the whole undertaking engendered by thile errors of speculators and Wall street capitalists began to be thecreulators intheattereeht Whptaigts. ceasedo alle both, subject to an implied joint risk which both partie the reulators in the matter the Whigs ceased all have siice cheerfully incurred. their wailiugs, and become dumb as a lamb. It is this peeuliar feeling of that party that has brought out There is a kind of partnership existing between a their "great guns" upon this floor upon the question government and its creditors, a kind of partnership to in debate. They feel peculiarly sensitive upon this this extent, that so far as tile credit of the government subject, and they are endeavoring to frighten us from is concerned, its stock rises and falls as its resources in due consideration of the subject by high sounding a due consideration of the subject by high sounding, crease or diminish. This is well understood in the ~~creas rdmluh hi swl uiesoo ntephrase s, such as "plighted faith and repudiation." stock market; and the capitalists regard with thile most SirI do ot dey that I ave no feeling in comon vi~ia t ye eery -it n whse socks,the wiSir, I do not deny -that I have no feelitig ini commo'n vigilant eye every govermlt in whose stocks they with this system,- that I have no sympathl)y with the have invested, and they are ready to sell or hold n me Wo on nect themselves with it. The State of the prospects iti,p)rove or the resources in the hands of New York has allured her sidter States by false ap the government, increase or diriinis~ll. Sir,,tie, harem. the government, increase or diminish. Sir, the barom pearances, into egregious financial blunders. As my eter of the Stocek market is guided chieflv by consid- friend from Monroe (Mr. AcHoL) a SO ften a erations such as these, and to tell me that in our action so well remarked, CIt is her syte of internal ii so well remarked, "I'l is her systemn of internal tin upon the powers of government to be conferred by this provemets, deceptive in appearance that has dofe new Constitution, we should be so nicety discrimina- ore nischief throughout te Union than any system - fom o~aiD.i~t, Isees to emore mische throughlout the Union than any system ting as the gentleman from Logan insists, seems to me ever yet devised. New York is the door through "9. m ~~~~~~~~~ever yet devised." New York is the door through a mnisunderstaudiLg of the true relative positions of the which the va-t products of the great west must pass bond holdler and the, Sttte. There is harly an exercise to reach the Conimercial world; she stands there as a of one po])wer under the, government that nmight not be of oe ower under the goveret that ght ot be tax gatherer, levying in direct and undenied violation reasoned away 1by a s,imilar proe'ess. We cai _do nothi reasonedil away y a similar prodvess. We car do notid- of the constitution of the United States, toll upon our lg a financial view, tht ill not, niore or less im industry; and this it is that has made hersystem of in pair or increase the value of our stocks. In asking terl iprovementsso successful. The falseglare of ternial improvements so succes.sful. The false glare of ourseves therefore, what powers we could confer uponi ourselves therefore, what power we could confer upon that success deceived our weaker sister States, and I the new goyverment oi this particular question, we hesitate not to say, had each and all of themt never should clearly examine the true position which thil two possessed dls worth of credit as intended by the parties Dow relatively occupy, and not ti-iat which they possessed a dollar's worth of credit as intended by the parties now relatively occupy, and not that whic they framers of the Constitution of the United States, their occupied a quarter of a century ago. people would htive been happier, and this day possess Iwill not. Mr. Chlairman, be drawn into a discussion of ing far more and better internal improvements, tbaa the general question of thie debt-contracting policy, but Il they have received under the debt contracting system. will say this, that the man who will arrest stock-jobbing The deficit in the revenues amounting to near a mill -theman who will bring about the reduction of this, the ion of dollars per annum, resulting from the interest great evil of our age, the [nan who will lay the axe at whic-h we have to pay upon the debt contracted to con the root of this system and bring it down with all' -its struct our public works, would annually make fifty branches, will deserve the gratitude of every living miles of railroad. But, sir, I will argue this matter no man, and the blessings of unborn generations. Sir, I farthei;it is plain and obvious to every man, and lest wish Ohio so far as she is concerned, would pass a law, it might be construed into desiring repudiation of the removing~her register offile from the city of NewYork, principal and thle interest due on thc Sttite debt, I depriving so far a? she is concerned, the stock market will only say that it is with no such intention that I of that city of its nlourishment. I would that other have adverted lo the matter. The fund commission States would than follow her example, and that the ers, in one of their reports say that the people of Ohio Gei.eral Government would pay off its debt, and incur pay theirtaxes without a murmnur, yea Mr. Chairman. no more; that stock-mrnongering would cease in the we area tax paying people. Our citizens about this United States. I think it is a humiliating spectacle to timemust have the patience of Job, to bear up under see the credit of the proud State of Ohio subjected to the burtliens of society; and the only complaint that the tricks, the jeers and the jibes, the smiles and the I have heard of on the subject is, that all species of frcwns of the sharpers of Wall street. It is a system property are not put exually upon the tax list to assist borrowed from Europe, corrupting in its tendencies; in bearing the burthens of government. its whole course is mischief, and it is rapidly sapping Sir, I have looked this matter square in the face. I the puritiy of our government. Capital thus fortified do not desire to defend the granting of the taxing pow sucks the life-blood of the people; from Europe it drives er ill reference to State stocks to the General Assem annually, millions to our shores; and every where it bly, by any legal quibbles. Show me that there is the interrupts tis prosperity of the people. It is the im- slightest moral obligation to exempt the present bond pediment to reform; it is, to sum it all up, THE GREATI holders from taxation, and I will conie up fully to the ROSSER OF THE AGE. Sir, this isthe great citadel of the subject. What I have desired to do in the remarks I party opposed to us in politics. Its friends on this floor have made, is to tear the mask from tile faces of our 89. 90 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MIONDAY, DECEMBER 16. was very anxious for the Convention to proceed and complete the performance of its duties. He thought that at present we had got into a tight place. We did not seem to be making any progress. He did not think that any benefit could arise from aly fu rther debate up on the proposition now in Committee of the WVhole. He had always had his doubts about the mode of plro tceeding adopted by the Convention. He wanted to .say that something tangible had been done-something had been acted upon finally, and put into the Consti tution., He would-therefore move that the Conven tion take up the report of the Standing Committee on the Legislative Department. Mr. CASE, of Licking, thought that the best way to make progress was to go on in the order that had been fixed uponii, and settle questions as they arose. Besides he understood therewere several gentlemen up on that side of the house who were anxious to express their views upon the question niow before thie Comniit tee, and he hoped, out of courtesy to them, that an op pportunity would be given for that purp ose. The PRESIDENT suggested that the se nse o f the Convention might be tested unde r a motion to go i nto Committee of the Whole. Mr. RIDDLE Moved that the Convention resolve it self intoa Committee of the Whol e on the order of the day. Mr. CHAMBERS demanded the ayes and noes, upon the motion. Mr. NASH said t here was one reason for not break Tlhg in upoen the established order, wi thout good cause for so doing. A question is now before the gCommit tee-it has been debated somewhat, but not settled and before the vote is taken th ere are others desirous to address the committee upon it. It was importanit that theeCn ti re debate should gh i nto tie voume of reports together; otherwise those who would have oc casion to examine the reports would be misled. Mr. CHAMBrERS s aid t ha t the Hame question would again come up beforeuthe Convention, and if dei bated, the debates w o uld ne cessarily occupy aditfferet place in the rep ort e d proceedings. Mr. MITCfIELL did no t understand the remarks of the gentleman from, Muskingum (Mr. CHAMuERS) as an answer to the objections of the gentleman from. Gallia (Mr. NASH.) He thought the entire debates upon each ques tion agitated in the Coiirrittee ought, in justice to all, t o go out together. He thought it the duty of the Convention to pass all the re ports of of the Committee ththrough the Commnittee of the Whole. We are constructing an inistrumeniit, which when completed is to be a whole, complete in its parts and complete in its entirety. Ins order to do so, we should not pass over or omit portions of the materials, nor allow our discussions upon distinct propositions to be broken into parts. ie thought therefore it was best to go on in I he same order that had beeni observed. There was anotlher subject upon which he desired to make a remark. He did not like to hear from mem bers, a constant admission of the charge which had been made, thiat we are misspending our time. He did not believe the charge to be true. He was not conscious of any such offetce himself, and saw no ground to make it against others. The business upon which we are engaged is imp~ortant and difficult. Everything by which l~ght may be thrown upon it should be admitted, and every opportunity given lot a free interchange of opiniosn. Fair this purpose, while it is important that we should make progress, it is, of all thin~gs most important that we shall proceed rightly. Mr. CHlAMB3ERS thought a very wrong course had been pursued, and hald thought so all file time. He thought we were spending our timle uselessly ill going through with all these reports in Comnmi. ttee of oppon ents, and to riddle their high sounding phrases. I think, sir, that I have shown that the mask of "plight ed fa ith" is wor n only to d eceive; that be neath it lurks a desire for exempti ons of ev ery k ind, and especially for this, hi alu ec t their darling object. I think, sir, theat I have shown that there is no t the least legal obligation to ex empt the prese nt State stocks from taxation, an d I think I miay be allowed to sayo that I have also shown that shere is not the least moral obligation resting upon us to do so. I repeat it, the original parties are gone, the, original contract is annulled by the consent of both parties, th e or iginal obligation is cancelled, the whole relation between original creditorand debtorisentirely changed. With the exception of those who, purchased our bonds last summer, whose case is not involved in this discussion, the holders of our stocks in every case stand in a far more favorable position than when they first purchasde the bonds of the State. We have conferred benefits upon them which they did not previsusly possess —our action has increased the value of these stocks, and I ask, sir, whether, in view of all the circumstances, it is wrong for us to confer upon the new government of Ohio, one of those sovereign powers which is absolutely necessary to equalize the enormous burthens of Society. Let others reason as they may, I expressed it unquallifiedly as my settled conviction, after a full and candid examination of the subject, that there is not resting at this time upon the people of Ohio, the slightest legal or moral obligation to exempt their State Stocks from taxation. On imotion of Mr. LTDEY, the Committee rose, reported No Conclusion: and, then, Upon the motion of Mr. MITCHELL, which was agreed to, The Convention adjourned till Mondays morning, nine o'clock. SIXTY-FOURTH DAY. MONDAY, Dec. 16, 1850. MONDAY, December 16, 1850-9 o'clock, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Mr. LARWILL p resented a peti tion from John H. Kauke, and forty-three other citizens of Wayliine county, asking that a provision be inserted in th e Constitu - tion, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law, whereby the right to sell intoxicating drinks shall be granted to an y one, or the trasffic therein shall be,in any, manner, legalized. Mr. THOMPSON, of Stark, presented a petition from Ellis N. Johnson, and two hundred and twelve other citizens cf Stark cou nty, on the same subject. The foregoing petilions wereu severally referred to the Select Committee oa the subject of retailing ardent spirits. Mr. TAYLOR presented a petition from N. R. Johnson, and twenty- one others, citizens of Cincinnati, asking for such provisions in the Constitution-i, as will forever prevent any fugitive slave, or any person claimed as such,'from being taken out of the State for the purpose of re-enslavement. Said petition was referred to the Standinig Commit-, tee on "Preamble and Bill of Rights." Mr. SAWYER offered for adoption, the following resolution, which' was agreed to: Resolved, That the Printer of this Convention be inst-ructed to send a copy of all the reports anid proceeding of this Convention to the Constitutional Convention now in session in and for the State of Indiana. Mr. SAWYER desired to say a few words in relation to the progress of business in the Convention, aind to submit a motion in regard to such progress. He i I I t I s t d c 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES- MONDAY, DECEMBER 1B6. time to time vibrating, yet in reviewing the whole ground he was prepared to vote, and to give his rea son for su ch vot e. The question no w before ui s is not upon the pas sagiate of a ere tempor ary l aw of th e Legislature which may be e a oe pas se and iat on e sess ion, and if fouud inconsistent with the Constitution, unwise, im practicable, or opposed to the will of the people, re pealed at the next. But on the contrary, we propose to place a provision in the fundametal organic law of th e State, which gives birth and power to the legisla tive auth orit y itself, to endure for many years, and which c annot be changed witi y the f acility of a tmere legislative e nactment. We pro pose t o do this, and yet if this provision s hould be foun d cont rary to,the Constitution of the United States-if it con flicts with that which is declared the paramount law of the land-it is liabl be to e conside red and pro nounced a nullity, a dead letter, to sta nd on ly a s a per petual t estimony of th e fo lly o f thos e who d origi nated it. The refore it is of mor e importance than a mere act of the General Assembly, which may, when found un wis e or unwe constitutional, be expunged and swept from our statute books. The f irst proposition presente d by te section now befo ret o o the Comit tee, is to a the stocks of the Uni ted States, holden by citizens of Ohio. [fr. McCORMICK. That is not the question. ] The gentleman, however, insists ta that this is not a true statement o f the question. Well,what is a true statement? It is this, I suppose: We are not to tax the bonds themselves, for it is by all admitted thatouhcn tbe n e t that cannot b e done, but the value of the bonds - he so e th y re enhe money they represent-the money invested in the m, and the interest derived from them. Now, I am unable to draw ani d istinction between a tax upon the bonds themselves and a tax upon invest ments therein, or upon the interest de rivable there from —it -is:too much like the distinction between tweedledum and tweedledee. To tax the one or the, other is, in effect, the same. The res ult is the same. If the one is wr ong, the other is so; for it is al indis putable principle of law that we have no right to do that by indirect means which we may not do directly. I am aware that strenuous a ttempts have bee n thus made to sophisticate this questioof, but it is in vain There is no solid, no substantial distinction-no rea Mos in it no ese nse-no law. There is no right to tax the money no rig h t to tax the stocks-no aright to tax the interest. The rea so n against the one is the same as against the other, and in all t he cases both re ason and law ar e conclusively against the right. What was the reason given b y t ile Ste predi )e Court of the Unite d States, for no t allowin g ta xation, by the; States, of the bonds, &c., o f the general government? In the case of McCullough vs. The State of Maryland,4th Wheaton's Report s, Chief Justice Marshall, in de — livering the opiio of the opotCourt, s aid: "The Sta tes have no power by ta xation o r othe rwise to retard, impede,.bulthen or in any malinner control the op erations of the constitutional laws enracted by Congress to carry into execution the powe rs vested in th e gener al government" Ag ain, the same great Judge, in giving the opinion of the hdourt, in the case of Wes ton and othe rs wst T'he City of Charleston, 2d Peters' Reports, says: The American people have conferredl upon their governmenlt the power of borrowing money and by making that goreprrienet supreme hare shielded its action in thoeexercise of this power from the action of the local governments. The grant of the power is incomnparable with a restraining or centreling plower, the right to tax the contract to any extent, when Blade must operate upon the power to borrow before it'is exercised and have a sensible influence onl~the contract; Th~e extent of this influence depends on the will of a distier the Whole, when, as all understand, they will all have to be discussed again in Convention. Such is nlot the. case in Legislative bodies. Then, immediately after the bills have passed through the Conimittee of h eti e Whole —while the subject and the arguments are all fresh in the minds of members-the amendments are acted upon, and the business is finished. Now he would appeal to members to say if any of them-unless they had taken especial care to keep minute mem p oranda f or that purpose-could tell the condition of any par ticular report or question at ti te time when the" Cuonvention adjourn ed at Columdbus. he thought it by far th e b est way to take up each. report as it comes from the Committee of the Whole, and act finally upon it, while the whole subiect is fresh in the minds of the members. He would beseech members to take such a course as would bring the~laborts of the Convention to a close as soon as possible. Many things in other portions of the Conatitution will depend upon the form and contents of the Report on the Legislative -Department, and he thought the first business should be to take up that and perfect it. Until this is done, many things in the other reports must remain contingent upon it. He was not very tenacious, however, upon this point, but would vote to take up the Legislative Report, act upon it, and thus lay a basis for future operations. The PRESIDENT begged Ieave to read to the Convention its thirtieth Standing Rule, as follows: "The following questions shall be decided without debate, to wit:-To adjourn; to take a recess; to lay on the table; to go into Comnmittee of the Whole on the orders of the day, and all questions relating to the priorityof business butany member may offer an expl an a ton t h in s tion touching the question of eriority of' business. The question b eing on the motion of Mr RIDDLE to go into Commlitte e of t he Whole, the ayes and noes wsre oderoe d, and resulted, ayes 68, noes 13, as fol lows: Yic.s.-Messrs. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens. Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Ewing, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, -Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Holt, Haotman, Horton,Hunmphreville Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Larsh, Law-' rence, Larw.ll, Leadbetter, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehe-ad. McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Patterson, Peck. Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Aug,iaize,,Sellers t arr en, Smith o f W e h Wyandot, Stanton, Stilwott, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Town-ishenrd, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson. W~ood-bury and President-68. NA&Ys. —Messrs. Archbold, Chambers, Clark, Cutter, Ewart, Farr, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton Lidey, Morris, Sawyer, Stet,bins and Swift-13. So the Convention resolved itself into a Committea of the Whole, Mr. LEADBETTER in the Chair, and proceeded to the consideration of Report No. 1 of the Majority of the Standing Committee on Finance and Taxation. The question being upon striking from the third section of said report the words "State and," Mr. CASE, of Licking, said he had desired, during the progress of this debate, to offer a few remarks upon the question now before the Committee, but as he found himself in a state of health that precluded much exertion, he should only detain the Committee while he would say a few words explanatory of the vote which he intended give. The question present: ed by the amendment now under discussion is one, as all will admit, of the first importance; and as most of the ~propositions upon which it depends are o,a legal character, and present for discussion, and settlement, points of constitutional or statute laws, he, as a humble member of the legal profession, had devoted to it some reflection; and although as the debate progressed he had found his opinions from 91 OHIO CONVENTON DEBATES-MONDAY, DECErIBFR 1a. government-To any extent, however, inconsiderable, it is ment is about to build in this city a Custom House, to a burthen on the operations of the government. It may be carried to an extent which shall arrest them entirely." cost a large amount of money-say one hunre tou I have thus given the language of the Court on this satnd.dollars-perhaps several titles that sumn. It for subject, because it is more expressive than any which that purpose issues- its certificate of stock, promising I myself can command. to pay A. B. or bearer a sumI aII)ounting to the total 'rhe gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) assyu- cost of the edifice. This is brought into market, and med, in his remarks upon thecase il 2d Peters' Reports, a citizen of this county who has his money so investthat it was by a majoritv of the court, considered aed that he pays a tax upon it, withi(raws it from your case of a tax on the bond itself, that it was decided duplicate and lays it out inll this boid. Thlis is,Ilot to be unconstitutional upon that ground, and that that taxed, it is true, but the money which was withdrawn decision does not cover the present question. In that from the duplicate and thus invested is gone from your he is mistaken. It is true that Judge Thompson, in duplicate; but where? Why, not to Europe, not to delivering his dissenting opinion, did assume the tax to New York; no sir; it is distributed among We people be an income tax, and as such, in his opinion, unobjec- of tlis city-to material men-mechanics-farmers, tionable in view of the Constitution of the United &., and it goes into the circulation of the country, and States. But the opinion of the majority of the Court, il other hands is taxed as before. I will agree, sir ina othepropoitind to tax, eedas toepossess milagree Of as delivered by Chief Justice Marshall, covers the that the proposition to tax, seems to possess many of whole ground,and lays down the broad principle that the elements of popularity. It addresses itself directly whether the tax be upon the bond or upon the income to the selfish views and passions of nmankind. But if of the bond, makes no difference. The doctrine laid it is unconstitutional-if it is illegal-if it is contrary down, i its broadest, fullest, and most comprehensive to the true intent and meaning of the solemn compact sense, is, that the State had no power to tax a contract between the States, I apprehend that upon a sober of the general governament, under any pretence or for second thought, it will nIot after all, be so very popular. any purpose whatsoever. This decision has never been If it is necessary for the existence of the General doubted-controverted-or called in question, judicial Government to hlave the power to make a loan, in case ly or otherwise, to my knowledge; but, on the contra- of war or other exigency, it is a virtual anihilation of. ry, it has been re ferred to as authority by the same! that power to leave with the States the right to tax court, in 16th Peters, in the case of Dobbins vs. Erie that loan, either in itself or its0proceeds; for if the rig t county, and that court has ever been tenacious of is conceded, there is no limit to it but the sovereign questions once solemnly settled in that high tribunal. will of a State. During the war of 1812, ill nearly all I have no doubt, upon the abstract question-dive New England, cobiations were for d to ebarrass ted of all questions of conflict between the State and the gener al government i aking loans to carry on adthe wenral goelMent who m adeu loan s wteeoune faryom general government, and of all pledges made and con- the war. Men who made loans were denounced from tracts entered into by the State-of the right of the the pulpit and the stump, and the credit ofthe general State to tax, in general, moneys invested in stocks, as government thereby much inmpaired. Massachusetts well as moneys otherwise invested. But the question passed resolutions condemnatory of tihe war, and dehere presented is not divested of these difficulties,s nor clared it to be wrong to rejoice over the victories gained can these difficulties be surmounted by treating this by ourforces. They endeavored by every neais to proposition as a tax on income in government invest- tie the hands of governmenlt. Does any one suppose minents. Otherwise, why rmay we not tax the officers of' that if at that time Massachusetts had had the power the general government residing within this State, utipon of nulifying the laws and crippling the powers of the theirqofficial income? The Postmaster of this city holds government by laying a tax on her bonds, she would an important and lucrative office, the emoluments of not have exercised it to an extent that would have par; which are very considerable. He has a large itncome: alyzed the general goverrnelt? Would not the cityi Why not lay a tax upon it? of Boston have made such an attempt? For if States MrREE ELIN believed it had beendone,and ishave this power, cities also possess it. Boston, New the practice in Virginia. York, Philadelphia and Chlarleston, cities in which Mr. CASE. That cannot be. The case in 16th Pe- most of such loans are made, miglt have laid their burters is directly against it. That was the precise ques- dens upon the government as well as Massachusetts. tion there mooted and decided by the nine judges of Hence we perceive the importance of thie general govthat Court. ernment having untrammeled this sovereign,vital pow-, Mr. RANNEY. The Postmaster in this city enjoys er of taxation-without which there can be 1o vigor a large salary, which he receives from time to time. ouspower or vitality in a government, without which Will the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE,) say the old confederation perished-and without which our that when the Assessor comes round,if hle does not put present glorious constitution would crumble to tle into his statement all the moiney he has, he will not be dust. guilty of perjury? Mr. Chairman; When we took our seats in this Mr. CASE. I do not feel myself obliged to answer body,we took asolemn oath to support the constitu all questions that may be sprung upon me in the tion of the Uiited States. We assumed an obligation course of my remarks. I will say however, that when not only to do nothing hostile to that Constitution,batone's salary, or his earnings, as an officer of the gel- to support it. We are bound no less by our duties as eral government enter into and become a part of his citizens than by our oaths as members of this body, to own property, when it becomes completely disiutegra- support it. Are we discharging these obligations, toa ted and severed, it is and should be taxed as other prop- the government created by that instrument, when we erty is taxed. But certainly gentlemen will not il- are contriving means to embarrass its operationssist in the teeth of the decision in 16th Peters, that of- when, in fact, we are making a direct attack upon its ficers of the general government, for instance, Post sovereignty? whein we are proposlig to arn this State Masters, Judges, Marshals, &c., can be taxed: by tile with the power to stab it in a vital part? Let us pause States, as such officers, on their income. -let us reflect before we lake this step-above all But, Mr. CHAIRMAN, there is not really that great things let us pause at this particular juncture n -our injustice in being deprived of the right of taxation of national affairs, when the Union is- runcaced with civil the bonds of the United States, that, at first view there discord would appear to be. Let us take, for example, a case Now sir; let us look a moment at the position in occuriug il the State of Ohio. The general govern- which tihe Supreme Court of the United States in 1 6th 92 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, DECEMBER 16. Peter's already refered to has placed the power of a This doctrine has gone into the text books of the State to raise a tax on the income of the officers of the law. It has been incorporated by Judges Kent and general governmenlt. The State of Pentisylvania,some Story, into their elementary works, and every lawyer years ago, passed a law levying a tax upon the income who has any respect for the rule of Stare decisis, ought of lawyers, p)hysicians &c. as well as all officers anid to regard the question as forever at resl. posts of profit. The plailtiff,an officer of tile U.S., was If gentlemen who have taken the other view of the master of a Revenue Cutter cpon Lake Erie, residing question feel convinced that they are in the right, let at Erie in Pennsylvania-under the laws of that State them make it a question before the people. Let them the nett income of his office was rated at five hundred select a General Assembly that coiticides with them. dollars yesrlyand the tax thereon amounted to some eighlit Let themr pass a law, and let a question be made and or ten dollars. It was resisted, and after going through carried to the Supreme Court for adjudication, and see the Courts of that State, caime at last, for final adjudi- if that tribunal will retrace its steps. If it will, the cation, to the SupremesCourt of the Union. Tlhere the point is gained, as effectually as if a clause for that purlaw was lholden to be unconstitutional —that a tax up- pose were inserted in this conslitution. And if that on the income of the officer. of the general government Court shall not retraee its steps-if it should be so perwas an attack upon its sovereignty affectinig its ability verse as to adhere to its decisions-and gentlemen to carry its own laws into execution. In this case, the think the rights of the States are thus outraged -there distinction made by the gentlemen from Knox and is still left a peaceful remnedy, and that is to amend the Trumbil, between a tax upon the proceeds or income Constitutioti of the United States. But I doubt, if a' and a tax upon the thing itself,:was not recognized. single State, unless it might be South Carolina, would There was no such distinction made. It was admitted wish to prostrate the general government at the feet of to be an income tax, and decided upon that ground. theStates, on that vital point. No one in fulllpossession Judge Wayne, who delivered the opinion of the court, of his faculties, can, it seems to me, recommend the pronouncing the law of Pennsylvania unconstitution- State to embark upon a mieasure so doubtful. It is a al, speaking of the nature of that law, said: matter upon which the human mind may well ponder before entering upon so vile and doubtfu~l an experi "The law is, that an account shall be taken of all offices before entering upon so vile and doubtful an periand posts of profit. The next section makes it the duty of ment. If the question is a doubtful one, that of itself the assessor to rate the same, having due regard to the profits is a sufficient reason whv it should not go into the orarising therefrom." "The emoluments of the office then, ganic law of the land. If after a confl;ct, it shall be and not the office, are taxable." "The tax is to be levied decided against us, we shall have recorded i) this conupon a valuation of the income of i he office." stitution, which we are about to form, an inseriptiotn to Such was the unanimous and emphatic language of our eteirnal shame atid confusion. the Court. the Court. CHIMN w ol There is also, in the section unndr consid(eration, a To what absurd conclusions, Mr. GuamRMaN, would. Towhatabsurd dor nlusion? Mr ClI wtouf provision to tax the stocks of the St te of Ohio, now a contrary doctrine lead us? Ohio might lay a'tax of in the hands of our citizeus. Most of these stocks say five per cent; Pentisylvania ten; Virginia fitteen; were issued understatutes more guarded tltan Ihasl sup. each would have a different rule, and what would be posed would at that time ave bee tought ofr deeni theirr8ttb~ (Onsluior? ll quait il t } alrie tposedi would at that time have beet thought of oar deem: the irresistble conclusion? All equality in th' salaries ed necessary; and if the (General Assenitily of that day of office woultI be destroyed an4 the powers of the gov- t. had foreseen what is here proposed, it coull no-1t by any ernlment would be prostrated. The Judge says inlXXJi eimtwconc lusion: TeJge says in language, have more effectually giuardedl against it. It conclusion: provided that neither the stock or the interest thereon,. "Does not a tax by a State upon the office, diminishing the should ever be taxed or the value in any respect imnpairrec( mpLnse, conflict with the law of the United,States, ed by any Legislative act. I know of no language that which secures to the officer its entireness? It certainly has s such an effect and canniot therefore be conrstitutional." its force and import, I will read from thestatute itself. its force and import, I will read fromn the staturte itse-lf. This decision was unanimous-the whole bench of Swan's Revised Statutes, page 747. judges, including Judge Thompson, who delivered the "And the faith of the State is hereby piedled, that no tax dissenting opinionti in 2nd Peters, upon which gentle- shall ever be levied by the ILegislature, or under tihe authormen have based their argumelits, that income, as coutra- ity of this St y virtue of this ity of this State, on the stocki to be created by virtue of this m enh,- e bsedther arumets,thatit,com, asConra-act, nor onl the interest tha~t m-ay be payable thereon; a d furdistinguished from the source of it, could be taxed. act, nor on ti y paable thereon d fr',they, that the value of said stock shia Li be in no wise imxpaired There is another view which I wish to present, in by any legislative act of this Statei." illustration of my positioii.-Can the State-tax one's illtetest it} a patent right? Suppose otne has an interest Yet, strange as it may appear, in the face of such of this kind, which Ihe values at a thousand dollars; Ca guarded language-i n the face of such emphatic pledgyou tax it? If one has a mail contract, which in con- es of the public faith of the State it is lere deliberately oes tof vilthe pbi ihothheSatet isherei pldgelieandtelyrun sideration of prospective profits, is valued at ten thou- proposed to violate that sacred pledge and trn round sand dollars; can that be taxed? Clearly they cannot after we have received tile money and tax such stocks. bC taxed by the States. nt The proposition is a bold one. I cali howvever, imag Mlr. REEMELIN inquired if stage coaches carrying inc one bolder for which we have an example in the the United States mnail, could not be taxed? g State of Mississippi-that is; repudiate the whole con Mr. CASE. There was a case in the United States tract; that would only be doing onl a large scale what Court, in which Neil, Moore & Co. of Ohio, were par- is proposed to be done on a very snall oe.ties. The controversy related to tolls, levied on coach But we are told that a State has not th, power to passengers on the National Road, and not in regard to barter away, for aty consideration this attribute ofsovtaxation or tolls on the coaches. The question in re- ereignty-the right of taxation. Thisquestion has also gard to the taxation of mail coaches has not beeit settled come before the Supreme Court of the United States, by any decision. I am aware that there are several and has been decided otherwise. The case is reported nice questions upon that subject; as for instance, the in 7th Crunch. The facts are as follows: right to tax the vehicle in which the mail is carried;- There was, in the State of New Jersey,a remnant of whether the horses can be seized in execution for debt; a tribe of Delaware Indians, that laid claim to a considand whether the driver, being a criminal, may be taken erable tract of territory, the boundaries of which were from the box? But the question before us, has been not exactly defined. The Legislature of New Jersey settled unauimously, definitely, conclusively and proposed to purchase this claim, and to give them, in beyond a doubt. exchange, a tract, with the boundaries defined, which 93 OHIO CONVENT10ION DEBATES-MONDAY, DECE:MCER 1B. should be forever exempt from taxation. The transfer took place under the terms proposed. The Indians afterwards sold these lands. The General Assembly of New Jersey repealed the law creating the exemption, and imposed a tax upon them. The case went to the Supreme Court, where it was holden, that the State having made a contract, and upon a consideration covenanted not to tax, was bound by thei agreement. The law imposinig the tax was therefore unconstitutional and void. Such was the unanimcus opinion of the Court. Yet in the very teeth of this decision, gentleman propose to introduce into this constitution ani injunction upon the Legislature to tax the bonds of the State, and that too in spite of the most emphatic pledges and covenants that such a thing should never be done. Now 1 call such an act repudiation. Admitting that the law is.unwise and unfortunate,and that the Legislature of 1825, in making it, exceeded its powers, which I admit is a fair question -for argument, is it honest-is it honorable to repudiate? Does any one here desire that the faith of the State of Ohio shall stand beside that of Mississippi? And yet the cases are the same, except that in our case we have not as yet consunmmated the deed. I for one, Mr. Chairman, am unwilling to stand upon this side of the house and as a member of the Democratic party, to bear the imputation of practical repudiation. In times past, the charge has been made against us, that we are agrarians and repudiators of the faith of the State, I have always denied the truth of any such charge. I cannot bring myself to acknowledge it, even now. That we should enter upon such a work, is unworthy of us-of the times-of the condition of the State, which amid the faithless, has ever faithful been; that we should be willing to do it upon asmall scale, is most unworthy. It is adding meanness to dishonesty. Good faith in a State is like good faith in an individual; without it, in either, there is no credit, no character, tio standing. The poet has not placed too high a value on honesty when he sars: "Lord, who's the man, that shall to that blest court repair? Not stranger, like to visit them, but to inhabi t there-, 'Tis he * * * * * * * * * a * Who to his plighted vows and trust, has ever firmly stood, And though he promise to his loss, he makes his promise good." And of Ohio I trust it may be said"She to her plighted vows and trust has efver firmly stood, And though she promise to her loss she'll make her promise good." Mr. Chairman, I was disposed, when this discussion commenced to look upon the proposition as more than half a joke-as a s ort of s cheme to prac tise upon the nerves of gentlemen upon the other side; but I fi nd it reg arded as a serious matter Mr. RANNEY assured the gentleman from Licking that he was serious in it. Mr. MITCHELL said lie was serious. Mr. CASE. I find it is a serious matter, and it reminds rtoe of a scene that occured some years ago, with the Vicksbulg gamblers. That class of profes sioiial gentlemen becoming very obnoxious, yea, intolerable to the people of that city, Judge Lynch, with his 13osse, one day -seized them-put ropes arou nd their necks —put them into a cart and with a band of music, marched them on to a hill in the rear of that city —the gamblers at first thought it all a joke to scare them off — as they moved up the hill "this is a very fine joke" said the gamblers —but as they approached the top of the hill they began to have some misgivings and exclaimed "really, gentlemen, this is a very good joke, but have you not carried it far enough." "Oh, ho," said Judge Lynlch, "'a little further, gentlemen," and on went the cart till it stopped under a very ominous looking tree, and the r ope s ab out their ne cks w ere at - tached to a strong limb, whe n the ga mblers exc laimed -,,in the nane of God, ge ntlemen, h v'nt you car ried this joke far enough." "Ye a " s aid Judge Lynch "just farenough" and the music struck up and crack went the whip and away went the cart and the ga-in blers hung'fdangling in the air.-(laughter.) He though t this joke had be en carried far enough at all events he ead a gret epuptat r epugnance at being hung up between t he heavens and the eart n th oni this question, and when the time shall come he would endeavor to guard against it by the vote he should gve. I Mr. GROESBECK said he felt a d eep inter est in the question now before th e aCornmittee, and desired before he shouldbe required to give his vote upon it, to present briefly the reaso ns that wou ld goversu hin in givning it. The question, reduced to its plainest terms is simpla th is: Shall the citizens of the State of Ohio, who have invested te r cia i their capital in the bonds of the State, be compelled to p ay a tax upon this invtest ment. He wished it to be understood, that he had no intention of saying anything as to the right o r policy of taxing a similar investment in the bonds of th e Uni te.d States. That question was not now before thee committee, a nd he wo uld c onfine himself s trictly to the matter in hanled. Mr. Cbairman-It would seem there is no gentleman of the c ommitte e who is nct willing to admit th at the holders of th ese bo nds s hould not be exempt from pay ing their share of th e expenses of the government, uIy less they present, in support of their claim to exent p tion, a strong, clear and unquestion able case. Here are citizens of Ohio, men who have from choice made our State their home-men who share with us in ea le degree in t he common blessingsand ben efits o f the gov ernmen t-who vote at ourelections-who may fill our public offices, participate in making our laws and in their execution, and who enjoy every protection and privilege common to us all. It seems to me that, un der such circumstances, when they ask so special an exemption, their case should be unquestionable, clear and plain. Let it be observed, that by the Constitution no such thing as a poll tax can be levied, and that in no other way than by an assessment upon their proper -ty, can they be brought to contribute their quota or the means necessary to keep up that government which protects them in their lives, their liberties, and their property. I would make one other preliminary remark. I ap prehend that no member of this committee can take up the laws of the State passed upon this subject,; fromn the year 1825 to the year 1843, under the authority of which the bonds now outstanding were issued, and not come to the conclusion that the intention of the State of Ohio was simply this: So to frame laws-so to pledge the property and revenues of the State as to ob tain credit abroad. There is no man who has read those laws-which are from fifteeni to twenty in num — ber-who will not see that the State only intended to do what should be necessary to encourage the invest ment of foreign capital in our securities-that the de crease of our taxable resources was not contemplated, ~and that there was no design that the people of the State should, in any contingency, escape taxation. The .character of the pledges evinces the intention. The bonds were sold abroad —our officers went abroad- to sell them —we established an offce abroad, I may say, to facilittate their transfer. I say this before I proceed to my argument, with a reference to the question of mora's that has been raised and to present' ail the aspects of the case in this coninection: I I I f r 0 t I I n t 9 h 94 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, DFCFMBER 16. in their payment, nor the confidence of the foreign holder in their immunityh feom taxation, it will not, to the amount of a single dollar, have the effect to reduce their value in the markets of such property, and ouer state will get back for taxation, that which ha s bee n taken away, and was once a part of her taxable re sources. And, nowt, I pro c eed to the case. Wih t in en c tho, the indulgence of the Committe e, Mr. Chairman, I propos e to ta ke up and review rhns whole ques tion, precise'y as I would any other, before this or an-other tribunal-to examine its facts; to weigh the testiinony'hat has been adduced upon it; and to inquire into the principles both of organic and statute law that have a bearing upon it. What is the question now pending? It is this: Sthall the citizens of Ohio, who have invested their capital in the bonds of the State be taxed uaon their interest iai these securities? Is m.oniey invested in the- stocks of the State a legitimate and proper subject of taxation? Is there anything in that species or kind of property —any quality ill the thing itself, that should exonerate it from bearing its ratable proportion of the burdens of the State? The, bonds constitute the evidence of a recognized public debt. To secure their payment, the State has pledged, gaged — mortgaged ever). foot of land, and every dellar's worth of property of every kind, within her borders. To say that this is a most sufficient and ample security, is only to state a proposition that is self-evident. There is not a county, nor a village, nor a city, in Ohio, that is not, to all intents and purposes overlaid with a mortgage, for the payment of these bonds. The home in which I dwell —the home of every citizen, however wealthy or humble-is substantially mortgaged for the payment of its proportion of this great obligation. That it is a substantial interest then, there can be no question —much more substantial than in the case where a man loans money to his neighbor, and takes a mortgage upon his houses or his lands to secure the payment of the sum loaned. Yet we tax the latter, and who doubts of the correctness of taxing the former, or of its consistency with sound and correct principles, unless it be a plain case for exemption. Now, what are the facts of this case? It appears that fromn 1825 to 1843, the State was engaged, from time to time, in borrowing moneys to carry out a system of internal improvements; and it further appears from an examination of her history, that, beginning at the former period, she passed laws, authorizing her agents to go into the markets abroad, and borrow such sums of money as were specified by those laws. It appears that the General Assembly of 1825, in the first act which it passed authorizing the contraction of a loan, made a pledge cf the property of the State, together with the works to be constructed with the money that should be borrowed, for the final payment of the principal and interest of the debt; and, furthermore, that the stocks or bonds issued in pursuance of such loan, should be forever exempt from taxation under the laws of the State. In examining the laws upon this subject seriatim, in subsequent volumes of the statutes, it will appear that the provisions and stipulations of the law of 1825, were not followed up, and that in all of thelsubsequent-enaetments,save one unrder the authority of: which loans werer made, there was Ill each, its own distinct, careful, and clear pledge. It will further appear,/that the law off 1839, (contained a recognition of and a reference to the provisions of the how of 1825, and s0 far as the General iAssembly was+-capabl-a of contracting on behalf of the S02tate, boulnd it to observe the samae rule of actten-.to keep the same pledges, and to preserve inviolate the same faith.. We have heard much in this debate about morality Let us look a little into that. I would ask, Mr. Chairman, if there is not, in fact, aquestion of good faith lying behind this matter; whether it is strictlv an act of good faith in the citizen to take up his moneys and property which he has in the state, subject to taxation, carry them out of our jurisdictioni, dispose of them, and return, bringing in their place that which is exempt from taxation? This is an inquiry which it is not improper to advert to here. It may be, I say, a question whether those who enjoy the benefits of the government should-can, in strict honesty and good faith, escape the burdens of that taxation, which all admit, is necessary to support the government? Gentlemen hlad better not say too much, or dwell too long upon the ethics of this matter. But, let me say, this is no good and sufficient t argument for the imposition of this tax. Standing alone, it is not. And without regard to it, and banishing the inquiry, whether these citizens in seeking to escape taxation have preserved entire good faith towards their governments and: fellow citizens,AI hold that the state of Ohio is bound to exercise towards all, whether citizens or foreigners, the highest good faith. I detmand of her, that she shall do so. I desire that she shall be the model, the exemplar, the standard of the highest and mnost setcupulous honor; and if I shall arrive at the conclusion, that she cannot tax this interest or property in the hands of her citizens, without a violation of that honor, I shall most assuredly, with my voice and my vote, oppose all such taxation. Charges of bad faith and repudiation have been iterated and re-iterated in the ears of this committee, and yet gentlemen who, make them must be very ily w acquainted with the subject. They cannot but be aware that the entire matters in relation to our public - debt have been placed in the hands of a standing committee of this Convention, at the head of which is placed the respected gentleman from Morgan (Mr. HAWKINS.) Do they not know, that that committee has proposed and recommended an entire recognition o)f our public debt-and not only a recognition, but a constitutional pledge for its redemption to the last farthing? Who tafks of repudiation when such is the purpose of the Committee and of the Convention? Who dares to say, that it is our intention to avoid the payrnent of public debt? Yet gentlemen say that there is a disposition here to repudiate! Away with such charges! They are not fit to be made. And when the foreign bond holder comes to know that our constitution affirms the validity of his bond, that his bond is not taxedwhen he finds that the state of Ohio is merely making preparations to tax equally her- own citizens, he will laugh at the charge of repudiation. How is it sir, Do you tax the securities at the Treasury of the State? No: Do you tax the foreign bond holder'upon his principal, or withold a portion of his interest for that purpose? No. We say, impliedly, in the Constitution, that the foreign bond holder shall not be taxed on his bonds. Let him look into this new constitution of the state, and in no other constitution will he find so much to strengthen his confidence in the public faith and integrity of states, as in that of the state of Ohio. He will feel no alarm at seeing in the debates of this convention, that we have seen fit to declare, simply and only, that our own citizens shall bear a part of the burdens of the government. A few words upon the policy of the proposition. 'What will be the effect of the taxation of those of our publicsecurities that are in the hands of our citizens? Will it diminish the value of the bonds?'It; may force a sale of them to foreigners, who will pay no tax upon. them. But as it will'not affect the public confidences 9,-5 I 96 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MONDAY, DECFMBER 16. These are facts which belong to the case before us, there tile slightest anibiguity, and in only two of which and being matters of record are nut to be controvert- is tile pledge of exemption given as appicable to the ed. So far,, ea',l agree, for the testimony cannot be certificates issued under their autLeority, while tie disputed. It is a part of the history of the State. other eighteei, neither directly, norby inilinication con There is another thing-another fact,-if I may be taim any provision to that effect. Whiere is the inoral allowed to use the expression —to which I ask the par- obligationi on the part of the State, to exonerate all ticular attention of the Committee, l'efore I come to such securities from taxation, when it is in evidence the question of law; because it is in a form that we niay and uncontratdicted that only'thi ee out of the eighteen recognize it, and because, as I believe, it is equally un- millions of our state debt, were contracted unider suich contrevertible with the other facts of the case. I re- a condiilon? fer to that portion of the Report of the Auditor of Mr. CASE of Licking did not wish to be understood State. in regard to our public indebtedness, by which as'claimiog an exemption forany other tli;nl, the securiit appears that the bonds issued under the laws of 1825 ties issued under the acts of 1825 and 1839. and 1839, on account of renewals and extensions given MY. BARBEE inquire if the act of 1850 did not at the instance of the holders themselves, have, in pro- contain a reference to that of 1825. cess of time, becone so changed and involved with Mr. GROESBECK. I am not aware that any law others that it is now impossible to ascertain or identify so late as 1850 has been passed on the subject. them. Another fact, insisted upon by gentlemen up- Mr. STANTON Tiere is a differeic ~ between the on the other side, shoni I also, for the sake of impartial- gentleman fronm Liarnilton and missell as to the terms ity be stated. It is this, —that it was the understand- of the various laws authorizitig loans. I think teat img at the time the several loans of the State were nego. every law has, by imriplication, affirined the exemptiontiated, that all the securities issued by Ohio, were vir- al provisions of the statutes of' 1825 and 1839. tually, at least, if not actually, covered bv the provis- Mr. GRO EBECK. Ttiat is the mistak- that has ions of the law of 1825, and like the 6tocks to which prevailed all through this discussion. Ge'itlemeii who that act gave birth, exempt from taxation. It is to a hi ave maintained the opposite side in this discussion have particular examination of these facts, that I solicit the failed in getting hold of tie facts in the c.ase. attention of the committee, before a decision shall be Mr. Chairiian; this is the true statement. There pronouniced utioti the important proposition now before are, say twenty distinct contracts, in the form of solemn us; and to these points, in the same manner as if I tlegislative enactments, no one of which can admit of a stood before a legal tribunal, I propose to confine my- doubt as to its meaning, no one of which leaves roon self, and to inquire into the rights of the claimants to for a quostion, as to a lair, direct, and couclusive conthis exemption; and I say again, that if gentlemen can, struction. Up)on these contracts, the State should take in the course of this deltate,show me any reason, upon her stand, whatever may be tiie const-quences, but which to found a doubt that this interest in the bouds of beyond them, equally regardless of the results, she Ohio, in the liands of tier citizens is not taxable, I will should never go. ]not give mely vote, that they shall hereafter he taxed. "But it is said that, in the absence of an express conAnd, sir, I am willing further, to r,espoud to theappeal tract, there was an implied understanditg between the of getitlemen to that higher law, which is above the State on the one hand, aiud thie public creditors on the teachinigs of vonr civil and your commiion. ltws-tthe Iother, that all the securities should be placed uonn the high and linniutable standard of morality and good same footing of exeiltioi. L-t us look for a toment at that question. How such an understanding obtain Upion these facts, and upon this testimony, I now wed here and abroad, I shall not now, stop to inqguire, a u in its conneetion withi this claim of exemption,I propos to enter upon an inquiry, as to the legal liobili- but i i it I I ty aid the rioral obligation of the State of Ohi o, in re- propose to inquire into tile maitiner iin which the loans spect of that porlion of her public securities, which now -were, from time to time made. As I have said before, are or may hereafter be in the hands of her citizens: no one can read the several laws beari,g upon the subAnd first: Is the State morally bound to exempt this iject, without comiug to tie conclusion that they were species of prolierty from taxation? - expressly framed for the purI,,ose of gaining credit Now sir, let -is have no hearsay testimony-no evi- abroad. Aud it is a fur-lier fact in this case, ttiat there deuce at second liatid, but let us demand the proof, and was a Traisfer offire establied ii the city of New that of tlte, l,iklhest,ntue What are,, the facts'in "I York, for -he purpose of facilitating the sale and transbaud? U1i(ler th l,aw of 1825, authoriziug the creation fer of Ohio bonds, and we know that officers appointed ofa debt ti t spiecified amoinoitt, the bonds of for the pirpose were seut to that City, Lo efect a bait, issued;s evitence of tiat debt were especially exempt- or, it the laniguage of the getitlentan lrom Ross, (Mr. ed from taxation. This is an admitted fact. But un- GREEN,) to negotiate it "%ail street, New York, or der every other law pIassed since that year, the act Of Threadneedle street, I~onn"-ione of them, be it 18 9 ottly (,xc, pted, this pledge offxetinptiott has been, observed, to be niegotiated in the State of Ohio, but all piriosely, a,, I toight say, cd as there is strong reason to seek their purchasers iu tile great cities of America to b~lieve:, omtitted. From fifteen to tweitty differentita laws bave, heiitpsed autromrfifteng to twentrollingereth and Europe. Let us pu,h our inquiries a little further, and ascertain what was d 9ie by the Auditor of,State, issne of stcl b~onds from the year 1825 to th e present, or tie Commissioners, whose duty it was to set out oa -day, ea,li oni containing its own terms and conditions. such ani errand. In tile first place he, or they went to Heit, areno 110 iarnl coritracts i10 obligations simply in the office of the Secretary of State, and procured a copy wriiti ottuier eal bu wehav sonetiugnine sl-of the Statute authoriziug the loan, for which proviemit anid btinii tg ithan all —contracts lit tihe form ofleg- sion had been made. They would not be so foolsish sis l ie e a t~nns and about which there can be no as to present themselves in the market without their disutent' (1nbtwhaevr cntrctsupo whch hecredentials. They Went with the authenticated law, siiiplest liersoil in the State could ntot fail to pnt a trueantiempatdpoleofteotpaedipoe anIt a leg:il luterp~retation. In the face of such facts,mnt0thihad. ihyapeitocltaitwh woud t ttl mci lai a exmpiot i faorof ilerhad money to luvest. What was dotie? Before partbonid holders thait those whose right is expressly estab-luwihterftd hewudntrlyadpoel lislied by the laws of 18~25 and 1839? Here are fifteende.rtoseteatoiyutrwhc thyctd or twentiy dtfiq rent contracts, tile tertis of which we Th~e law of the State is exhibited. The capitalist scrucannot for a momnnutt nitstak,,, it tno oil',tt w l icti I iti.: ~ I 1, 5Ol t?~ hieg feep OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, DECEMBER 16. tion or notices its absence, looks at the maps and pro- rules applicable to the one case would not be equally files, hears the Auditor descant upon the probability of so i' tile other. Suppose that I should borrow eighsuccess, with regard to the improvements to be made, teen thousand dollars, for fifteenl thousand of which and whetn lie has become satisfied in his owln mind as I obligate myself to pay an interest of two per cent per to thle security, makes the loan. aninumj, and for the remaining three thousatind, an in Mr. Clhairmani and Gentlemen of the Committee: terest of six per cent per at) 1 nin. Aod (ill order to Was there ever one dollar or one cent of these eigh- suit my illustration to tlhe facts of this case) the rate teen tiillions loaned, concerning wliiclithe party mak- of interest was not specified upon the face of my notes iDg the investment, did not know exactly what laws of hand, or that being so originally, it had, in colisehad been ected, whit pledges they cotitained, and sequence of repeatel cianges, and reiewals, bhcome what rights they conferred upon him? Such a case so that it was irmpossible to deterinie upon which of cannot be fouud, and the supposition would be as ab- the notes I was bound to fay six per cent and upon surd as to imagine that any prudent man would loan which oulv two per cent. It is an admitted fact that a hundred or even ten thousand dollars, without upon fifteen of the eighteen thousand, I was originally knowing the exact terms of the security and the pre- bound by may contract to pay only two per cent. All cise extent of his legal rights itn the premises. It is my notes have arrived at miaturity, and the holders idle tlieii, to clainm for these capitalists, any rights oth- present themselves before me for paylment. I look er than are conferred by the law, under which they over the notes, and we mutually examine their contents made their loans. Tee aymadebe their loalltsh.. crte and terms, but neither the holders nor myself can de There may have been a rumor, that all the securities termine which of thile notes are entitled to thile interest of Ohio were exempt from taxation, atid there is prob- ofsix per cent. All cairml the highest rate, six per cent, ably 1)0 doubt ol tile fact that certificates were changed and all perhaps suppose themselves entitled to receive and transferred from time to time, and perhaps in each it, and tile subject has become so involved that the case, it was represented by the seller to-the purchaser, true state of facts Call il non manitier be ascertained. that tilhe exernmptio,is of the law of 1825 applied to all What is to be done? Ao I bound to pay the highest the bonds of tile State; but admitting it to be so, does iate upon all my obligations? Ayt I io ldetl as a morthe fact furnislh ally ground for action, or even for a-al atd honest man wittlout any reference to mere legument in this body?'1 he question is: Did the orig- gal obligation, to (o10 so? If any gentlemarna believes it, inal lender of the money under any other acts than he would oblige me by giving hlis reasons an(i exhibitthose of 18'5 atlio 183o9, have anyground to expect that ing his authority for suci asi opinion. Yet this is the bonds wlieli hie received would be exemnpt fromprecisely the case which we now have under considtaxationi7 I cannot believe so, sir, for a moment. The precely the case whic We OW ve under cosidvery fact that thiere was aspecific exemption in certain Ad, with reference to the law of the case, how laws. is, of ilselt anl evidence of the intention of the stands the matter? The gentlemau frorm Clark (Mr Legislature that thle exemption should be limited to MAsON) hasthreatened us witlh ai appeal to that great those securitIes especially provided for, and equally in- Court which sits, in the exe-cise of its Eili calilig, in dicative of tlie lgislative determination not to exon- the easter ilg of the National Cal)tol. Ie would crate the remaiander. And if a rumnor exceeding the erate the reailer Anl f a ruor exceedig the take us there, if ill tihe exercise of our duty as citizens truth, has goltie at)road and has been acted upon, it may of the sovereign State of Ohio, we siouli have the be unfortunate lor those who have been misled, but no temerity to lay a tax upon tie securities of tile State one can claim that it should in any mannericompro- in the 1ha:ds of her own citizens. Sir; I will go there mise tile Iholt,r or coitirol the action of thile State. And hI. they mnay intcotopl)aino, for up to this day, at least, not t one dollar of tax has ever be,.n paid by these securi- We are i the august presencn of the Federal Court, ties. and upon al issue riade are exaniniug the question in Let me refer to other rumors, observing the reason its legal aspect. He offers in evidence mty bond for forexerimptio. in the cases to which they refer, is equal- one thousand dollars, upon which he claims an ilterest lystrono as ill this. In the margin of the tax law as of six percent, from its date to its nmaiturity. There is pri nted in the volume of our statutes there stands a 11no rate cf interest specified upon the face of thile inbrief syllabus in these words: "Property exempt from; strument; but he says to the court tht tit was stipulae taxationl." Now take all the subjects then exempited- tel by the maker of the sote that it sloulil bear w th it and rumor has been just as fruitful as in the case of an int,,rest of six per cent. Upon this testirlony, and State boids. Thle understanding of the community this statement he rests his case. Oil the part of the deis just as prevaletit tliat a certain amount of property, fence, the executiol of tile iistrutii-lt is a'tnittel, and household turalttire &c., is free of tax. In the same theo I follow with this stateent: "I gave this bond, maniner the public creditors have made it a prevalent along with others to the atoult of eighteen thousand idea that their securities were exempt. So far as ru- dollars, upon three tlhotsantl) of whict I promnised to nior is concerned both claims are equal; but who will pay interest at the rate of six per cent., and up.on no make it a questioli whether iii either, the State is more. It is at present iiuiostible to (listiuguihi the six bound by these nmere floating opinions? per cent. bonds, and this inlpossibility is admiiitted on I wish to advert to another view of the case, in con- both sides." The ge,ntlemati from Clark would claim nectiou with thle moral aspect of the question. It is judgmentwithsi x perinlt;. ititerest,anid I would laugh only claimed that to the extent of about three millionsI at his demand, and I will subiut it to tny lawyer in this the faith of the State stands expressly pledged in favot Couveintioti whether thlat high Unurt, or ao, other, nnof exenmptioli; and it further appears iii evidence in der the same circunistances, would render judgment in the official report of the Auditor of State that, in con- his favor. sequence of tile frequent and repeated transferofbonds Mr. MASON, I should expect, were I prosecuting it is now iupossible to identify those that are by law such a case as the one alltil!el to, that it would be a exoneratedtltat is to say, those that were issued un- part of uiy evidence as pili)itT. to show that the bond der tile laws of 1825and 1839. was issued under the act of 1&25, or an act containing And now, with a view to the consideration of tile a sirtilar provision'a pr'oof t.tdat tal teel omitted in imoral question involved in this matter, let us compare the statement of his friend fro,m Hatmilton, (Mr. Geoxsthe positioin of the State to that of an individual under BECK.) TFhen, I would ask the ~,ntleitiao it it is his the sane c;rcurnstau.ce-; for no one will instat thatthe opinion, provided I sboild irove that sochl a bnit J ad 9 -4 98 01110 CONVENTION DEBARES-MONDAY, DECEMBES 16. his "That the taxing power is of vital importance: that it is d essential to the existence of government, are truths, which id it cannot be necessary to reaffirm. They are aclinowledged and asserted by all. It would seem that the relinquishment to of such a power, is never to be assumed," &c. x- The Chief Justice goes, on to say there is nothing in r- the contract forbidding the imposition of the tax, and d, affirmq the validity of the law taxing it, &c. u- Now, Mr. Chairman, I desire to apply the princi ples settled by that authority to a part of the facts ral of th is case, in answer to the claim that an underall standing had gone abroad, that all the securities of he this State were, by law, exempt from taxation. It ny would be unbecoming in a court to presume upon e- aniything less than the clearest and most conclusive of testimony that the exemption had been stipulated for s at the time the contract was executed; and it is il- strange indeed that we should now be called upon to of exempt the entire eighteen millions-not merely to m run counter to the spirit of that authority, but to commit, if I may so speak, an outrage upon its prinby ciples, as well as upon the people we represent, tow This Convention, sir, has no right to surrender to any portion of the power of taxation. The law arisral ing from the facts of this case is, that no such sur: e- render has taken place. Unless we are driven in an ed opposite direction by plain and conclusive testimony n- our duty is not to arrive at such a conclusion as that se argued for by gentlemen on the other side. Such is the law, and if I have been correct in my statement of the evidence, there is no court in Christendom in he which these bondholders could protect themselves m from that taxation, to which as citizens enjoving ut the protection and benefit of the Government, they rd are, at all events, morally bound to submit. If it is at impossible to identify the particular bonds issued is under the laws which provide for an exemption, it is e a sufficient ground in law for the rejection of the whole. s I come now to another question —to the question of i- the right of the General Assembly to give away, or n. barter away the power of taxation, and I intend fairly t- as I can, and candidly throughout, to maklie the claim, l- that the Legislature of the State of Ohio had no right ;- to do such a thing. Let us look at it for a moment. a, Here is the Constitution. It declares that taxation by I- the poll is grievous and oppressive —that the property or of no man can be taken from him for the public use, s without a just and adequate compensation. You can n not take my property without paying me for it. There e is no other way known to the Constitution, nor can t the wit of man devise a mode by which the State can f exist without taxation. In the language of the Chief e Justice of the United Stales, "it is essential to her ex - istence, an attribute of sovereignty." Take up the Cen e stitution, and how does it read? It prescribes the du - ties and limits the powers of the various departments s of the government. Nowhere in the Constitution is o there a word said about taxation of property. It is as e silent as the grave on this subject. There is no grant t of it, in terms; and at the close of the Constitution we r declare, "that all the powers not herein granted, are - reserved to the people." One might almost suppose that there exists no power in the State of Ohio that f can impose a tax upon the property of her citizens. But such is not the case. By the mere creation of the X government this power exists. The power of taxation - must necessarily belong to every government, as a part t of itself-an essentini attribute of its sovereignty-a . part of its very sovereignty. Can that power, consi' teutly with the safety of the government itself, be bar A tered away or tampered with? Where is the authority, m in any department, to do any act constitutionally, I say a constitutionally, having even a remote tendency to bring the government to an end? If one of you were issued under the law or 1825, would the court. in opinion, render judgment against me asto interest, a for the defendant? Mr. GROESBECK. I have presented the case the Cornmmittee, upon the facts as we know them to e ist. We know what these contracts are, an'] the pu pose for which they were executed, and upon the bon the law, th e admissions and the testimony of th e A ditor of State, I went into cou rt with my f riend fr Clark, (Mr. MASON.) We appealed to the Fedel Court, and there we offered our evidence, and it was the evidence we had. My case was simply this: T bonds were mine; I admitted their execution and n obligation to pay, but it could not he satisfactorily d fined which of them were entitled to the interest six per cent. Mr.STANtON. Does the gentleman from Ham ton (Mr. GROYSBFCK) contend that in consequence this state of uncertainty, the State is exonerated fro paying six per dent on any of her bonds? Mr. GROESBECK. I am not at all embarrassed such a question. All I have contended, and all I no contend for, is that the Court would not permit you recover six per cent, until you prove that your identic bond was entitled to interest at that rate. And [ r peat, that if the facts of the case are as I have statr them, there is not a lawyer in this body, who can il sist that the State has parted with her right to tax the, ecurities. Mr. STANTON assented to that proposition. Mr. GREOSBECK. There is no doubt about t~ law of the case, end the law being admitted, as I clai it to be, I will not argue it. A bond is a contract, b whether it be so or not, makes no difference in regal to the right of the State to tax. All the tribunals the have examiped such a question, have sustained th view of it, when it has not been distinctly stated in th contract, that there was an exemption. The gentleman from Ros-s (Mr. GREN) referred u to several decisions of the Supreme Court of the Uni ted States, bearing as he understood, upon the question You are aware, that Court had already decided that un less the property sought to be thus exempted, was ex erupted by the express terms of the contract, from tax ation, to tax it would not be contrary either to law morality or good faith. And in this connection I de sire to call the attention of the Committee to anothe opinion of Chief Justice Marshall, in a case which ha not been referred to, in the course of this debate. II the uncertainty existing in regard to the fact which are the issues which by the terms of the law are exemp from taxation, the decision of the eminent judge is o great force. It will be found in 4 Peters, 514. The case was that of a bank charter which contained no pro vision regarding taxation. Subsequent to the passage of the act conferring the corporate powers, and subse quent to the time of the commencement of operation, by the bank, the State of Rhode Island proceeded tc levy a tax upon the institution. On the part of the bank, it was contended, in an elaborate argument, that the contemplated tax would destroy,. or at least impair the privileges intended to be conferred by the act of incorporation. That the charter wes a contract, whose validity could not be impaired, &.c. The opinion ad the court was delivered in the following terms: "It has been settled that a contract entered into between a State and an individual is as fully protected by the tenth section of the first article of the Constitution, as a contract between two individuals; and it is not denied, that a charter incorporating a bank, is a contract. Is this contract impair. ed by taxing the banks of the State?" S And at page 561, the learned Judge, in commenting upon the taxing power as reposed in the States, says: OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MoNDAY, DEcEMBER' 16. to approach me now and sever my arm at the shoulder not competent for the legislative power to part with -my right arm —my laboring arm, by which I subsist, that right-the right of occupying lands and taking you would not more certainily impair the integrity of property required, in an emergency, for the coinmon my body than you would diminish and impair the sov- defense, or for any public purpose; and, sir, it will ereignty of the State, by parting with a part ot this not be contended for one moment, that that right is power by which it is sustained and held together-by equal in importance to that of taxation. It is, ia which it lives from year to year. If you may give fact, of mere secondary importance, when compared away a part, how much, and where is the limit? with it; but it is a difference in degree and not in I remember the!anguage of Judge Marshall, in 4thl kind-in magnitude, but not in principle, and so it Wheaton, referred to by the gentleman from Trum- is treated by the authorities. I should like to read bull, [,iir. RANNEY.] Why was it that, in that case, from these authorities. The cases are recent-very hlie held that the State of Maryland could not impose a recent, but I forbear. tax upon the United States Bank? Because, as he o)- But, Ar. Chairman, I am admonished by my fail served, if the State can do this, it might be, that the ing voice that I should bring these remarks to a States might obstruct and impair the means of the Fed- close. eral Government, by which it subsists. This bank is I am sure, sir, that the members of this Conven one of the means of carrying on the General Govern- tion will not come to the conclusion that one-one mnent, therefore it can't be taxed by a State. This was department of our State, or all of them can barter his great and reliable reason. Nothing was said, ill awayits sovereignty. Take up the Constitution and that case, as to the amount to be taken. The amount turn to its opening page, and what is the language? was as a single sous in an exhaustless treasury. It was In substance this: We, the people of the State of as if one stood upon the shore of the neighboring Ohio, to secure to ourselves and our posterity, stream, and stooping to its never-failing floodof waters (not our immediate posterity, but our posterit should take out so much as he could hold in the hol- in all time,) the blessings of liberty, do ordain and low of his hand. It was as nothing —nothing. It was establish this free and independent State. the principle involved. It might be-it might be, that Is there any man who, at this late day, will stand if a State had such a right, she might obstruct or im-up here and contend that one department of this pair the means by which the Federal Government is Government has a right to bring it to a close? Will carried on. they contend that the Legislature, whose powers are The same principles were declared by the same Judge, fixed, and whose functions are well understood in 2d Peters, in the case of the city of Charleston. the Legislature whom we send to Colunibus to con And may I not apply the same principle in this place? tinue the government-has not only the rightto destroy May I not say to the General Assembly of this State: itself, btit to itblude the entire fabric of the State in You have no right to part with the power of taxation. its downfall. The doctrine is monstrous-it is unna By doing so, it may happen that you bring this gov- tural. It has neither law, nor constitution, nor deci eramelt to an end. If this be true in one case, it is in sionl, nor dictum in its favor-it has neither reason, nor the other, and if the doctrine is applicable in one, it is right, nor truth, nor morality to sustain it. It isrevo equally so in beth cases. The power of taxation is lutionary-unconstitutionally revolutionary. "vital to the existence of the government." It is the And now I bring my remarks to a close,, with this essential and the only means by which it maintains it- -'brief explanation. I say that the right of eminent doself from year to year. main cannot be bartered away: and let me state another I admit that there are casesin which it has been hold- case. The Legislature of Ohio recently incorporate4 en,thata State may surrenderher powers of taxation,but a cemetery in this county, and declared that the grounds I think gentlemen will agree with me, that in all those should be occupied for the purpose of sepulture and cases, the real question has not been fully met and con- for no other. Such an act did lnot exempt even a place sidered. But,Mr, CHAIRMAN, since questions concern- of burial from the right of eminent domain, and I well ing these rights and powers have been taken up by the recollect how our feelings were outraged when under Federal Courts in earnest, they have expressed a doe- the exercise of that right, a charter was granted for a trine that makes it perfectly clear that there can be no railroad, and in the exercise of the right, it drove right surrender of these attributes of sovereignty. through the consecrated ground. All were disposed to Take the case of the right of "Eminent Domain," dispute the existence of such a power, but it was of no which is nearly analogus to the one now under con avail. And if such is the power of the State over her sideration. What is the right of Eminent Domain? territory by virtue of eminent domain, how much It is the right of the State to control the property, real, stronger and more immutable should it be so in regard personal, and of every description, belonging to its to taxation, a power which must be exercised every citizens for public uses. It is a power necessarily year-aand forever. belonging to government-not necessary to be confer- I say that the right of eminent domain cannot be red in express terms by the Constitution. Let me call sold. But what ifthe State shouldsell it? Would the the attention of members of the Committee to the Ian- contract of sale be sustained? I am free to admit that guage of the Constitution of this State upon this sub- if the courts declare a contract affecting eminent doject. It has a clause, upon the subject of eminent do- main to be void, for its unconstitutionality, it is the duty main. Why? For this reason. We desired to assert of the State to make the party whole, whether or not inx our Constitution, another great doctrine-the invio- such be the law. It is at all events, the morality of the lability of private property. We said, private proper- case; and if her contract to exempt a few of these bonds ty shall be inviolate, but lest this declaration might im- from taxation, is also unconstitutional, as I believe it to pair an attribute of sovereignty, we further said, it shall be, it is equally her duty to refund what she has realways be subservient to the public uses. For this ceived as the equivolent for such exemption. I could reason, it was mentioned. It needed no grant, that the have wished that the Committee that made this report State might have it. Like taxation, it is a part of her had said they shall be taxed-all of them without exvery sovereignty. emption and accompanied it with a proviso to this ef. And now, what is the law of Eminent Domain? feet: That the tax may be remitted in regard to such It has been declared by the Supreme Court, in 11th'- bonds as may be clearly shown by the holders, were isPeters, and again affirmed in 6th Howard, that it is sued under the acts of 1825 and 1839. Do this, and I 8 99 I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Momr)AY, DECEMBER 16. have no fears for the credit of the State. My conscience in this matter is fullv satisfied, and the law is with us, and in every view which I take ofit-iin every aspect in which it has been presented. I see no reason for coming to a different conclusion. Mr. HOLT next obtained' the floor but give way for Mr. MITCHELL'S motion, that the Committee rise and report Progress; which was agreed to. I And then the Convention took a recess till three P. M. it could be done without breaking the faith of the State, no member of this committee w ould vote for it with a better appeti te than my self. Bu t the State said when she borrowed the money-and I helped her to say itthat she would no t tax them. She not only said so in ordinary language, but she formally an d solemnly The. getlTGemanfro Hamion,tontth CoMrn e riOsBe, thStt?IdontkothtIcnmkthspan pledged her faith to tihe performapnc e of her stipulationis. I now proceed to examine briefly, very briefly, the principal grounds upon which it is argued that the se s ecurities may be taxed, without a breach of the publi c faith. The first which I shall mention, is, that the law exempting them from taxatio n transcended th e coestitutional powe r of the General Assembly, a nd h as never been san ctioned by tile people. The w ant o f this pow - er in the General Assembly rests upon the assumption, th at if the power exist at all, it exisls without l imit. If it can exempt one spec ies of property for a given time, so as to bind the legislo ation at a subsequent session, it may exempt all property, in all time tho come. The atnswer to this is, that s uch a n abuse of power is n ot to b e supposed. T he supp osi tio n of as extr eme imaginary case, which we know can never happen, furnishes no premise from wh ich w e can re aso n with safety or profit. In further answering this assumption or proposition, I also will suppose a case. Not a fanciful case, but a case which has subs tantially e xisted, in fact. In the negotiation of a loan, bt the state, the le nder estimates the exemption from taxation equal to one per cent, and proposes to lend at six per cent subject to taxation as the State shou ld tax other property of a similar nature, or at five per cent exempt from taxation. May not the representatives of the people accept either proposition, as they shall think most advantageous to the State? I do not know that I can make this plainer than to let the question furnish the answer. Tile Congress of the United States, having the power to levy taxes upon land, has exempted the public land from taxation for five years from the day of sale. This State and other States, if ily recollection be not at fault, has done the same. The right, therefore, to exempt specified property for a given time, has been recognized and exercised by Congress, and by the legislatures of the States; no watchful, strict constructionist sup)osinlg that, because the, power might be imprudently exercised or abused, therefore it did not exist. By the unanimous decision of tile Supreme Court of the United States, in the New Jersey case, reported in 7 Cranlch, it was held, that exemnpttl)g the Indian lands trom taxation forever, was withlinl the constitutional power of the Legislature. So tthat it would Dot be taxed in the hands of subsequienitpurchasers,being citizens of the State. We have then the recognition and prame tice of Congress, of our own State, and of other States of the Union, sustained by tle. Supremiie Judicial power of the United States, sanctioning the constitutionality of this law of 1825. But admitting that the act was bevond the constitutional powver of the General Assemnl)iy, I cannot yield my assent to the assertion, that it never received the sanction of the people, and that the people have hadl no opportunity until now of disowning it. Why, sir, they has-e had twenlty-five opportunities —perti'nent oceasions~one every year for tho last twenty-five years. If the people had d isapproved this law, -either on the ground that it was impolitic or unlconstitutioI~al, they should alga thley would have expressed that. disapprobation lon~gr since at the polls. They woulld have elected mem-bers to the General Assembly who wrould have refused to receive the mloney on the terms proposed, or if receeivedl, refunded it.: Sir, it ought not to be-said by gentlemen who understand AFTERNOON SESSION. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. The PRESIDENT resumed, and, On motion by Mr. LAWRENCE, the Convention again resolved itself into a Committee of the WholeMr. LEADBETTER in the Chair-and resumed the consideration of the question pending at the moment of recess, namely: Mr. HORTON'S motion to amend the third section of the report of the Committee on Finance and Taxation, by striking out the words, "State and," in the fourth line. Mr. HOLT (being entitled to the floor) addressed the Committee as follows: iMr. Chairman: What little I have to say upon this subject, I have chiefly committed to paper; and so defective is my vision, that I hope I may be indulged in speaking out of my place; for, otherwise, I should not be able to read my notes. The only question which it is strictly in order to discuss, and the one which I shall alone consider, is:Shall the State tax the money invested in State stocks created by any act or acts of the Legislature, which contains a pledge on the part of tihe State not to tax them? The gentleman from Hamilton, [,iMr. GROESBECK,] who last addressed the Committee, if I understood him correctly, concluded his argument by expressing a willingness to exempt the stock shown to be expressly exempt by the statute. If this opinion were concurred in by the Comtmittee, I should not occupy their attention for a moment. All other stocks I am willing to tax. But several gentlemen have advocated the taxing of all State stocks, indiscriminately. My relation to this question, perhaps, calls on me briefly to assign the reasons for the vote which I now expect to give, and which I shall give, unless convinced that i am in error. I was a member of the General Assembly, at its sessioi in the year 1825, and for several succeeding years. With a large majority of that body, I voted for the act "providintg for the internal improvement of the State, and to borrow money for that purpose." To obtain the loan, I voted for the proposition that the State should pay the interest, to be stipulated, not exceeding six per cent.; that neither the stock nor the interest should be taxed, nor should any act be done by the State to impair the value of the stock. Upon this proposal we obtained the molney, with it made our canals, which we are now using; we have rot paid the debt, yet we propose to tax the stock, or, in the language of the report, to tax the money invested in the stock. Upon this propo sition I am called u)ot to vote. I said in 1825 that I would not tax it-I aim nlow required by the advocates of the proposition, to say that I will. Had I done a similar act in my individual character, and it hird been known to my constituents, I should, unquestionably, by all parties, have been relieved from the responsibility of voting upon this question in this body. Mr. Chairman, I have given willing and anxious attention to the arguments of gentlemen who advocate the right and duty of the State to tax these stocks. If 100 0HmiC CONVENTION DEBATES MONDAY,' DECEMBsER 1X 6. well the t,hory of ourGovernment,wo are observ- cable to thle obligation of the State, not the bondanlt of its workings, and the manner in which the holders. If I borrow money of my neighbor, and people exercise a revising and correcting power over promise to refund it, it is not for me to violate my legislation, that they have had no opportuinity until promise, and justify myself on the ground that he Fvlow, to express their opinion, and to have done got his money by usury or fraud, Nor can.le State it efficiently, too, respecting the constitutionality or justify the violation of her contract with the b6ndupeonstitutionalityof this act of 1825.'holders on this ground. If the bond-holder made tn the case of individuals, if aldlagent exceed the a fair contract with the State, it would be a singular authority given him by his principal, as a general!justification on the part of the State for a breach ct rule, the principal is aot bound. But if instead her contract, to say to him, you don't fulfil your co,i of disowning the act, he proceed to take advantageof tracts with others, or you make hard and oppressivthe stipulations in his favor, he thereby becomes bargains with others. bound to fulfil the stipulations made on his behalf to But this is a digression. The ground assumed for the adverse party[ Such is the law in the case of taxing these bonds, which I am now to answer, is that individuals, and right and justice is the same where nor own citizens ought not to have the benefit itendthe State is concerned. ed only for foreigners. My answer is, that this also -When heard we this objection-the want of consti- is a violation of our contract. In terms we made this tutional power to make this law and this loan from stock'mtransferable." What is included in this term the people themselves? When was it raised in the transferable? We said by it to the money lender, we Legislature? When did the most ambitious aspirant will place this stock in such shape that you may go for office start this question even for debate? with it into anlly market, at home or abroad; youmay Sir, as one of,the people, I consider an acquies- dispose of it here or elsewhere, to our own ciitzens or enee in the provisions of this act for a quarter of a to. foreigners, unclogged or unembarrased, and'the century-our having received and used the money, purchaser shall have it just as you have itexempt wlhich remains unpaid-binds us to a fulfilment of all fron taxation. our stipulations, even thou gh the act were not within I said then, sir, in 1825, as a member of the Gen;tJe coinstitutional power of the General Assembly. eral Assembly, that I would not tax these stocks, nor The next ground taken, towhich I shall reply, is, do any act to impair their value. What I said then that the Report does not propose t'o tax the stock, I say now. What I promised I mean to perform. but the money invested inthe stock. If gentlemen And as thepromise was madeinbehalfof my constituwill devise a way, or if I myself could devise a ents, I mean they shall perform it. Sir, Y have not w, by which we could reach and tax these stocks, consulted my constituents, not a man of them. upon without breaking our contract, I should do so with this question. But I do not believe any considerable ; hearty good wilL But an attempt to arrive at portion of them would require me to vote for taxin this object, hQwever desirable, by making a dis- that portion of the State stocks which were created tinction wherethre e- isno 1difference- using a dif- and issued under a pledge that they should not be ferent name'for the same thing —making a shadow taxed. Nay, sir, I do not believe they would even equal to the substance, or rather manufacturing a justify me in giving such a vote. substance.out of a shadow, is not convincing to my These, then, sir, are my reasons for opposing thle mind. Gentlemen mistake Judge Marshall when taxing of this stock-lumsily expressed, but arraLgthey say that he recognized this difference. By way ed in the best manner that I could do it, with less of episode, I will say that Judge -Marshall was an than half my ordinary strength of vision. I have eminent jurist, a profound logician, and a successful not been able to read books nor examine cases. sophist; and among the'many able and excellent Before I sit down, I cannot forbear a brief notice opinions which:he delivered, he gave others tending of the analogical reasoning of the gentleman who I i'n their influence to tranisfer the rights and powers of am permitted to call, and am happy to cill my friend the Statesto the Central Governnment, beyond any from Knox, (Mr. MITCUHELL,) to some extent endorsed other man ofhis time, or who has existed since. In bythe gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. GaOFsnEC,) this I concur fully with the gentleman from Trum- who last addressed the Committee. The gentleman bull (Mr. RANNaY.) But he recognized nlo such dis- from Knox argued, with an air of apparent, and rno tiaction as is claimed for, or imputed to him. The doubt real siucerity, and an air as triumphantas sindistinction which-he in fact made, was between the cere. that, inlasmuch as the Legislature have repealed, corporate property, or perhaps the corporate franchise, and have a right to repeal a general law exempting of the United States Bank, and the stock owned by aiy species of property from execution, they, thereindividual citizens of the State of Maryland in that fore, i like maiiiier, can repeal an act exempting institution. State stocks from taxation. If he means b this that A further ground assumed to justify the imposi- it can be done by general laws, wherethereis no tioti of taxes upon this stock, is that it was not con- contract or pledged faith in either case, he is right ternplated to ex.empt it in theihands of ourown citizens; But the law referred to, exempting certain property that the exemption was intended exclusively for the from execution, is but an ordinary enactinent. It is benefit of foreiTgn capitalists, from whom alone we so in form and fact, in letter and in spirit. It makes expected to receive the money-that this was the no proposition to be accepted or rejected; it asks spirit of the law, and therefore our own wealthly citi- cornmpliance with no request; its language is that of zens ought not to be allowed to withdraw their money command. All must obey it, noloens volens. Or in nor their property from taxation, by investirg it in language which my friend from Auglaize (Mr. SAwthese stocks, and then claiming the exemption If yaa,) likes better, and probably it is in better- tastey the question before the- ommittee were, whether, in willing or unwilling. Not so withthe act in question. niorak, these bond-holders ought to pay taxes on So far as this question is concerned, it was a bare the stock, I would say that the same mortal obliga- proposal If accepted, it became a contract in form tion rests upon themato pay the tax that would re- and in fact, in letter and in spirit. If not accepted, quire them to distribute that portion of their proper not a line or letter of the whole act would have the ty among the laborers who earned it, and who have least force or efficiency. Why, sir, there is no analo. never received a full compensation for their labor. gy at all between them. But the question ofethics involved here is one appli- I will put a case to the gentleman wh.{chis strictly lOl OHIO COiWVENTION DEBATE$-MONDAY, DrcmrIrF.,R'16. He had been told by a gentleman upon the.other side of the Gharaber, that he was underkiood to lay it down as an undeubted rule, that the Legislature had the power and the right to bargain away their sovereign power of taxation. If this were so, he had been misunerstood. He had merely stated that he regarded thbsas a doutful question-a question upon which men might well pause and reflect seriously; and that, tbeing doubtful, it ought not to be! put into the ConstitUttion. " He would say further; that, were, he a member of the Legislature, he would not hesitate a single moment upon the question of tax;.ing the banks of Olhio, precisely as other property; n9twithstanding the o f exemption i ms their cha rters., Although f th iouid involve a doubtful question. as all must admit,i'i vlew of the decision in 7th Cranch, yet he Wld, beglad to see it brought up to the, SUp'reme Court'at Wash.inrgton. But it would be a beli'd movement. eyertheless, he knew of a bolder mov*ement. He re/aee!c to a question in the trial of the Celeratd anie: 0'Conrell, raised before the Engl-sh- o:use of'Lords few yearsago. O'Cont)e!l, as we all kInow, had been convicted by the Queen's Bench of Ireland efa Mnd State misdemeanor. Everything both 0of law and ftt had been urged in his defenc- to no effeet'every remedy, every relief known to the law had been exhaystedd save and except one most desperate throw of the die, which perchance might win, anid which could Ibit lowe —and that was a writ of error to i the liouse of Lords of England. The writ was brougit and in time came on for hearing, that celebrated case before thew' Lordships. The indictment contained, tome fifteen counts, it was admitted that some of themn were go and some bad, and that the judgment was genera inr view of all the Counts. wAnd it was also admitted by the Counsel for O'Connell that up to that time it never had been doubted but that such- a convicetS,n was good -that the- universal rude of criminal low Was,1 when the conviction was general and there are sU9A!: counts, if there are but one good one ti', adfgmelt is good-but they stated, that, although such had ever been the understanding of the law in Eng! nd, a, though such was the language of all the booksupe that subject-although no judge or lawyerhadebb doubted or called in question its soundness,althoughb men had been drawn, executed and quarereed, banished and imprisoned under just such judgments as that against O'Connell-yet said I they, we demand the reversal of this judgment, because, such is not the law Of the laant. A smile played over the countenances of:th Barristers present on the cccasion, and their Lordships could hardly suppress their meriment,at- so novelsa proposition-yet when- the arguments were-closed on that proposition, the Lord Chancellor, put the question to the law Lords, "ShaUl the judgrnent stand?",'Non eontente" said -Lords Denman, Campbell and,Cttn ham,- Content," said the Lord Chan.ellor'nd Brougham. "The'non-content' have it and the udgment is reversed" said the Lord Chancellor-and he Irish Liberator once more roamed at large. Abold,r forensic movement was never Bade. ~ He would like o see those sharp bold Irish lawyers, he would like to ee the cut of their countenances —he always had a ,reat curiosity to see,O'Connell himsae-lf, but a much ,,reuter one to see his counsel in that case. One word mo-re and he would be done. The: fger. tleman from Hamilton [ Mr. GaRoB1:A had ake-nthe ground, that no sov-ereign power could i~ ,artered away. He would ask that gentleman if the ,ewer of making contracts, w~a not a sovereign pow, or, pertaining to ever government? Was i t not the case, that, at every session of the L~egislature, a portion ,f this power was transferre out of their hands pro ant?:He took the c*" of anl w~t. incorporating a analagous. It may also be used in answer to what vuas been a rgued by other gentlemren duAingthis de bate-it is this: t hat som e of these bonds have been purchased by the prse ntd holdiers at a great discount, say fifty cents i on the h e dol lar, wh iereas they are now q uoted at one hundred and sixteen. -Suppose the State, b y a n act of the Legislature, proposes to sell lands at two dollars per acre, and in the- act says to purchasers, on paying the money into thewland oa e, gtou shall have a C ed, a nd tae land shall not be taxeod fo r five years. A purchases a tract of lasnd, pays the money into the land office, and re ceiveo adeed. At the e nd o f one Syea r ther e is a re vulsi i n in business; property si nkis in value; an d A sel s th e l and to B for half what it cost him. At the end of the second year business revives. and bv some impro vement in th e vi cinity theland is trippled in value. Will you now say to B. "Whe n w e sold this land to A we anticipated no such state of things as now n exists. lou made an extraordinary good barg ain, and we will tax your land for the next three years our contr act and our faith t o the countrary not Wi thstand ing," Would the ge rntlemanfrom x would any gentleman o f this Comomit te e so act? I think I may respon d an emphatic nay, for every gentleman. Sir, there is; in honor, perhaps a -stronger obli-gation on the p art of the State, to keep her faith in her contracts than rests upon individuals. For the reason, t hat he who trusts the Stte, a relies alone upon lber good faith. He knowps if she fail to performe she cann ot be s ued no compulsory process can be had against her. Wher e as, in the case of an individual, if his faith fail, resort m ay be had t o a judgment and execution. -]r. Chairman, I am not ignorant of the fact, that the legislation of the civilizee world at all times ohas been favorable to capitalh, at the expense of lab or-for money rat he r than for men. It has been atoo much the case in our own country-this land of b oa sted o "lib erty and equality." It is-tiie to change its tone I and current. With all miny heart I will g o with gentlem en t o do it. But in aoing so,let us act prospect tively; and n ot, in our zeal and f o e dsolicit.ude to makea 1 radical a nd p eedy change, violate our honor, and b reak the pfieblic faith already pledged. Sir, I atm not to be understood,e by what I have said, to'be a stickler for what is usually called v~TED yaodubsthat the L egislature, by improvident or un'sise legislation, can compromit thie interest of, the people for fi fty or a hundre d years, by the ordinary 1 grant o f corporate franchises. For exampl e: that it c can confer upon a corporation the control of the c money of the State, its oquantity and value, by creab t ing -a feas t or a faminure, by enhancinug o r depressing t the value, r rather the prie o f allher the property in th oerin ep Statefrom th eplantatio n and farm to the pa i o nd ays wo rk of o-thi e hod ca rrier, and the, brown loaf and beef shank, I provided by hi s half-rew arded l abo r,-to feed h is chil. dren. Th at such powers can be gnranted, and be be- t vondi.iubsequent remedial legislation-beyond the re- e r, umptm n or modpficatio of the sovereign power of t the Stat e represented in the General Assembly, is so n 'revo-ting to that Sense of Fight, and justic, and re- g publican equaleity, n thatit costs-an g effo~rt of charity to findd an apology for the advocates of the doctrine. What I urge, and all I urge is, that the State should fulfil hler contract fairly made, even t~ though the paty wit~h whom she~evontraeted, gets the b better side of the bargan. There is a commendation p Tfromr high authoritybeto~wed: upon himl "who~swear- e: eth to his own hurt, anld changeth lnot,." e, Mlr. CASE, of Licking, desired to say one word, -by o way of explaining th0 remrs he made ~this tmorning. tt 102 OHtO CONVENTION DEB Bridge Company, with a eclasse in the charter, that for twenty years thero should e no t4ol-bridge erectedft uponi the same streaif, withinli one rhile either above or below said bridge. There could -be no doubt that it was cometent to'6r the Legistature to pas a charter with such a provision. Bt -hen -the charter was passed and accepted, and thie Company had crmplied wilhi its terms of completing their work, liad not the Legislature parted with that portion of their sovereign power which they might have exercised over this portion of the stream ia question, for the period of twenty years' -~' W-hen he had concluded there were cries of "'Question, Qcuestion," in iari,6s parts of the Chamber. Mr. MITCHELLe oig h lt hjsthe allowed the questyon now'to be taken, withott asking the i-d.ulgenc'ol the Committee any further, were it not for the serious andc eandid appeal made teo hini by the gentleman from Warren Mr., STlH]. He felt coustriinedly the rQospect Which was due from him to that genteman, andd to the people whom they mutually represented in this body, to make sonime answer to the earnest and em-w phatic appeal which that gentleman had made to. hii'n, as a an who ~'wouid do no act which he did nott think was sUpported by the prianciples of justice and moratity'. ,rtaitly, he woald ntot do any a-twhich he did not believe to bI supported by the principles of a.soundt norality, nor would he ask of the peple hehad ther honor to represent, nor of the State in general, to sanction any act of his, nor t do aniything themelves,which would not bear the test of a most strict and rigid morality... o t 0 p i u e The gentleman fromlWarren has propounded t him this questiewO Had the Legislature the power to make a contract? He answered the question in the affirmative-just' as he would admit the power of a body corporate, or of ana individual t.o khe a contract. But, in his turn, he would ask the gentleman from Warren, or any other- legal geantleman, whether, in every case where an individual Ior any set of men,e possess -the power to make contracts, theyhave of necessity also the power to mrake all sorts of contracts? it would ceritainy be-coneded that this wast nlot the ease. It needed but to-be suggested, it seemed to him, to show its fallacy. The law hd set limits to the power of every man to make binding and -valid contracts. It might be true that most men might e n aike as many contraets as they- please, even such as would net be binding eitherila law, or upon the principles of a just moraitvy. It was not,true, however,t that all persons, natural and artificial, possessed the same powers in this respect —the powers of some were mnuch more restricted than others. Artificial persons and a,enits'belong -to therestrictedclass. The Legislature fall witlhin both descriptions. It' is an artificial person and Pn agent, and.'as-amat ter of coarse is limited in the extent to which it could go Its power to ntake contracts, it seemed to him, were clearly more limited than that of the individual, or general agent. They acted in the capacity of speeial agent in tihs respect, and eould not go be- h yond the terms of their ltter of attorney —beyond B t;hat which it might be absolutely necessary for themw to do to secure the end for which they were created. They might make contracts, either by virtue of express grant, or of the necessity of the'case., When. the Constitution was sient, thits necessity must be clearly shown. fr- us. ~ Wlere'sir, can ffhe C~onsti~tutionali gran or necessity be shown for making contracts proposing to give up irrevocably the power to make wise an dwholesome Iaws,or to adopt a just and equal system of taxation? Whtewas with pleasurehe w h, agreded ith'his esteeed Mr. MITCH~~~~L~ m'igh~t wa e al o e th qust o with po d mrle. I as c n eurent y n t w h friend, the gentleman from Montgomery ( e r. mHain') that these contracts also, were only to b lived Up to, upon the principle- of n nor and good faith. inh o: agreemnts of all government s w I oer only bis n diis n g.iT - honor; for therewas n o mode of enfrcita a oiupli' anico with them. There was no. sanction by hich at individual could compel the government to complyg with their contract; although this is uid~oubtedly true, still he-admitted that their conitraectshduld always b e. regarded precisely as atl other contracts, upon tle.Prini' ciples of strict justice and a sound mnorality.: t'!4o'n-, -squently, the idea o~.repudiation, as tile word, ls com-"n monl-y Uderstood am,ong our people was inot co-nsistent: with good morals.' It was cougequently not Worth' talking about here. The peop!k of Ohio were not.contemplating any Euch thing., They we'e neverun..-; wilflng to -pay their debts. It, was' always their intei tion to do so, but' this word has been used ina Vtey - different sense with which he had never sympath-sednever agreed. This was the want of strict compliaticeb :with the demand to py the int erest at the very day it was due. It' was this which' had brought down upon the people- of these States all the odium wlhichhad'been-ftlminated against the.m, *om acrossethe Atlantie, by Sidney Smith, and- others of kindred spirit and stripe, and he mustsay that he had ever ft ashanmed to see so large a number of our own people read,yto republish this malignant and unjust reproach.: Si~ if virtue is left with our people the; slhouldfeel ashamed of their conduct in this matter, maligning and traducing our government for no other deliquency thoraoth-ou,-;sands of themselves are practising upon each day and ,claiming and maintaining respectability. He ia';~ tained for our Statgovernment that she wasonly bound to the same exertioiis to -preserve good faith i,n her contracts as individuals may be. Trhis was simply pl~dged to go as far as a reasonable prudence mightrequire; that was to say, they were not -rquired i0' make unreasonable sacrifices; but that they might avhil themselves of the,privilege to defer payment till they could be prepared and provided with the meanSwithout mak ing ruinous sacrifices, and for doinig so, he did not-con,'. sider that the States'of this Union, were jius'tly iabhe to I the reproach which had been east upon th-em.' i Mr. MASON (interposing,) Will the genitleman aIlow me to make, an iiiquiry?' /'' Mr. MITCHELL, Certainly.' Mr. MASON. It is simply this:, Supposing the State has not the power, as the gentleman'has urged['< .to nake all kinds of- cntraets-, what- is the op,nion'uf: the gentleman as to the power of the State, to make acontract to borrow money upon the faith anticredit of the State? Mr. MITCHELL did not propse to take up ths time:o~f the Commitjtee, by answering q-uestioins whffbh did not properly belong- to this discussion. -The gert'. tieman might have perceived that thisipower was admitted upon all hanads He referret partie ularydtoth*: closing remarks of the goaetleman froml Hamilton (Mr." ,roesbeck) with reference to this question as meetiing: his approval'-as words which ought toestand eve: But, if the abstract question were to be discuSsed'hie would be founld upo~n she side o~ those c-ohtenldJng tih'a; the issuing of S~tate bonlds was in- eontrovention o: that provisionl of ths Constitution of the J. S.:wI~ch~ prohibits the States from issu-inll bills of cre-dit. But: this disculssion did not belong to the-poinlt in issuie' e-. f-ore us... ~ He denlied again, that this discussion had any- connexion with repudi~ation; there was nO call for that.: -It was not even eoiitempiattkd by'ths peo/lo. I~t arose Simply from'a desire, that a-ll shouMt bear the burden-s: OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-AMoNoDAY,,DtPEMER 16 - rived, when it was demanded by justice and tree policy, that these investments of money should be f taxed as other property in'the community; and that this requirement of justice should be met, either re ior by the Legislature. Assuming this to be a iuSt i claima, what should become of any contract, standing f in the way to prevent such a requirement of justice and sound policy?. c b ph He had before reminarked, that the opposi side of this question had been most frequently taken by even eminent men in the legalprofession. ithadl beeln a '- mattter of surprise to him, that they had not had some w regard to those well settled principle found in the books, which establish, beyond controversy, that a large number of the contracts made in the eourse of business, cannot be enforced, becausethey areaga,s,$t good morals, and against'public policy. That is a C contract which would directly tend tio iniure the great interest of society, if sanctioned by judicial supprt, w must be held void and incapable of enforcement If this be as he claimed, it was a well s0ttled rule of del cision in our courts of equity. It was elti:ily satis factory to his judgment and his conscience, for, as a general thing, he held that these rules of decision were according to god conscience, sound morality and enlightened Justice. It has been contended, it was true that there wa,s no morality in these legal decisions which Settled these questions?: But he would ladt enter into anii g o a nd metaphysical examination Ofthis question.-. For, It was generally conceded that the decisions f the cust of the country, as to what is the law, we morallyv speaking, sufficiently correct, as a general rule; al though particular cases might passibly arise, in which the demands of law might not satisfy the demands of r conscience. ie eould not sympa thze with those who were willing to cast'the aspersion upon those -veaerable gentlemen who administer the law upon the bench as occupying a position where theymust be constantly violating their consciences. H e considemd that when they administered it according, to its true principles, they were serving the ends of justice and discharging the highest and most honorable of, earthly duties. He had but little doubt that, whenever they were able to settle what the rleof lawrequired, their conscience and moral sense would be entirely satisfied in enforcing the rule. He asked no better, nor higher satisfaction to his conscience, as to that was right andjust, than thegrcot body of the decisions and adnjudicatiohs of the our t s. As a generalf thinglt, h were founded c upon t hecleare st hggestiors o fg utW ie,hv and, as'generally were supported by the, princlesOf a sound morality. -; He held, then, and considers that hle had shown:, that no State contract should'be maititalned as iniosia ble, if it were founded upon- such principles- as weaid not stand before a court of j}uStie:' and that! Conw - tract in question was-not only in contravention of th Constitution Of the State, but a:contraet whiech in a court of justice, would,be hield a perfect nultity, as against public policy. - ~': He would call the attention f fShe gentleuah fromw Warren, and others,, to this view of the su bjeet, aS'wetl as to those offered by the gentleman'fromn Hamilton, (Mr.:Gaov.sazc), going to show, that the conratr fo the exemption of' these-bnds, was void- for want of power to meake it. If~ this contract was ind-eed then a nulllity, could he or couid his friend ffrom Warren have any scruples of conscienee in requiring future iegisla, tures to so treat it? Could courts of justice have a'ay compunction in so regarding it?;:. ~':,u He would, In support of this position-,eal} the all-en. tieor O the comImittee to wha~t had fbeen said'by3 lone of of goverunmepnt, i,n.tproportion to the amount of proper ty they hage to protect.i. He maaintaiwned that the Legislature of theoState of a o Ohio had not the pow er to make tihe contract, now in questionrc namely, tha t they w ould never tax the w ealth of her citizens invested il State bonds, issued for borrowed mowney. The re was no warrant for such an exemo tion in the Corstitution. It was noast eve claimed by the opposi te side that any such power was expressly granted; with what semblance of reason then can it beclaimed th at by imp lication the Legislature, had power to give up their right to pass any:law. which might b e enercessary for th e publicf good. It was ut terly itcorsistent with the very existence of governmea t itself; and it was directlyin contravention oof the long establis thed pricile, that the Legislature may pass any act required for the public good Constitutional restrictions upon the power of the Legislature di d no t take away the ancient principle. by; whith statutes were required to be so construed, so as t o preservethtie indepeoiden e of each succeeding Legislature. But to allow the Legislature to divnst itself o f t he power to pasi any.act f or the public good, would be to auth o riz e tha t body to divest itself of the very foundation prilciple upon wh ich it rested. He woulid ask the gentleman whethe r this wer e a prudent doctrine to declare, thlat on e L egislature may pass a law which shall bind or restrict the power of a subsequenthone? w To what letingths of a bsurdity and inconsistency, and even oppression, might they not go, upon such a principle, if once established? He was unable to see -how any practical limit could be fixed to this arrogant and extravagant claim, if the principle were for: one moment allowable. Nothing call be more important than that the Legislature should pos,sess, at all tirnes~the power to make wise and wholesomne laws. Nothing could be more utterly subversive of the very end of her creation, than to allowherto' barter it away or subject its to the least restriction. fie had. been not a little surprised at the discussions of this question, in this country, from time to time. It had generally been discussed by legal gentlemen upon the side opposed to the ground where he stood. Some of the m- ost profound men of that profession in the country had been found advocating the. opposite side of hi, question? Lie then went into an argument, showing that the English principle of jurisprudence,'prohibiting ex postfacto laws, was nothing changed in our constitUu-' ti'ns, by the different wording it had received; that the construction of the English courts was, that one parliament had the power to repeal the act of a former parliament, whenever the public good required it only that enactment must be construed so as tao have aprospective, not a retrospective operation. He main-, tained that no contract could be binding, unless it were such a contract as- could be enforced before anl ordinary court of justice. In other words it must not be-a void contract by the known principles of justice as established by our system of jurisprudence.' But, conceding, for the sake,oi argument, thatthere was a contract for exemption from taxation, made. between the Legislature and the money lenders-that it was a possible thing to identify the particularbonds issued under Such a contract —-still, he would maaintain that such a contract could not be enforced by reson of the well established principles of morality and justice, in any court of law ~or equity. But, it should b~e remembered that this discussion had proceeded upon the principle of the right to~ tax money invested in these bonds;* and it seemed to have been conceded, upon all hands, that ju~stice; required that such a law shaould be passed. It was claimed by thsose with whom he acted, that the time had now an — i 104 .OtIlO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, DECF.MBER 16. he hoped, also, that the people were satisfied with the same conclusion which had so firmly impressed his own- OWI mind: they would feel, not only atlibertybuteon strained to support the same, not from any party pre dilictions, but from the highest sense of justice and morality, and from ahigh sense of theabsolute necessity of doing so in order to the preservation and perpetuity of their precious liberties, and the priceless blessings flowing therefrom. The question being upon the motion to strike out the words "State and" from the third sectioti-the same was putanid the Committee divided thus: affirmitive 34, negative 51 So the amendment was lost. Mr. NASH moved for striking out the whole of the third section. He could not understand why, in framing the Constitution, they were to pass a law regf dulating taxation. Now, the second section requires equal taxation, upon an equal basis, and it appeared to him that if they provided for an assessment of all property real and personal, it was about as compre hensive as could be made. But it appeared that this was not sufficient; for that while providing for such a general assessment, they required one thing in par ticular. That while required to obey all the com mandmeuts, yet there was one in particular which they were bound to obey. If there was any meaning in all this, it was that out of the property specified the General Assembly might raise the whole revenue of the State, that that property should be taxed at all hazards, and the balance at the option of the General Assembly.q He would say that if such was not the meaning, it had none whatever. Why, in the name of Heaven, first require that all property should be taxed, and then go on to specify two species in par ticular? Suppose that such a state of things existed t as in Massachusetts, where they have a very slight State tax, it might be raised from this propertv alone. The others were embraced in the first section, or they t were not. If not, then the Legislature would be bound to tax them at all events, revenue or no reve nue. If they were embraced in the previous seotion, the section was then useless. He would appeal to the gentleman from Auglaize (Mr. SAWYFR,) if it was d policy to incorporate in the Constitution disputed m questions of legislation. Gentlemen had now been t arguing it for four or five days. The opinions ex pressed on both sides existed all over the State, and if men who believed that laws of that character would be a violation of the faith of the State,'how could t such men vote for their Constitution who did not agree with an important part of it? It mattered not w hat his opinion might be on the matter, it was suf ficient for him to know that it was a disputed ques tion; that the opinions of those against the doption of the Report were honestly and openly entertained, and must induce them to vote against a Constitution in which such a principle was embodied, as being a direct violation of the faith of the State. Was it wise or politic toseek to incorporate into that fundamental law, questions of expediency, as to taxa tion; a question, which has been debated and hotly de bated too, and opinions freely expressed which would force men, who regarded the public faith as sacred, to vote against the whole of this Constitution while it concatained such litigated and disputed questions: they would t drive those m1en1 to make such an amount of opposit tion as would ultimately sink their Coustitutioun. If s they inserted this section, and that the Courts shou S deo ide that they had no right nor power to do so, we m shall have then standing in our Constitution and funas damental law a provision which should be a disgrace s to t!teState and to the men who framed the Coustit - c 1 tion. It is a question which should be left to the ge - sc eral Assembly, and not incorporated in theConstitutio the most en lightened judges of this country. H e would read fr om page26s8 of Judge STORYS first volume of Equ it y Jurispru den ce, whe re heopens the rcosideration of the subject of contracts void, btecause against public policy-a rule, which, he says does not restupon the hypothesis that fraud exists il the contract; but, il order to prevent a contract operating against the public interest, it was necessary thatitshould be tinctured with fraud. 'Judge STORY -SAyS that these contracts "are such acts and contracts as, although not originating in any evil design cr contrivance to perpetuate a positive fraud or injury upon other persons, are yet by their tendeiicy to deceive or mislead other persons or to violate private or public confidence or to impair or injure the public interest, deemed equally reprehensible with positive fraud, and therefore, are prohibited by law as within the same reason and mischief as acts and contracts done mato amino," (with an evil intent). The same auth,or adds on the next. page-"ome f tle, cases under this head are principally Iso treated, beclause they are contrary to some public policy.,, He proceeded to show that the object here, was to secure -the highest advantages to the community; and therefore it was, that the law would not allow of the existence of any contract that would restrain the rights of trade and commerce, such, for example, as might establish monopolies.' Anotber class of these contracts, were such as were calculated to impedepublicejustic or effect the pubic interest. Another, arose out of peculiar relations which the parties might maintain to each other,such as a guardian and ward, attorney and clear,t, trustee and cestui que trust. Mr. STANTON (interposing.) If he understood the gentlemen, he claimed, that, where parties engaged themselves in a contract which would operate against the public policy, the courts would not enforce it, because they were both rascals. Did the gentlemen pretend to claim, that agents of the State who had made the contract under discussion, were all rascals? Mr. MITCHELL wished the gentlemnan from Logan would either listen a little more, attentively or would sit a little nearer him; or could it be that the gentleman desired to caricature him before the people of Ohio? He had said no such thing as that imputed to him. The word rascal had not escaped his lips. He had said that this principle of law was to discourage and prevent the making of contracts. The tenoencies of which would necessarily be to affect injuriously the public interests. This was what he said and it was what the law most clearly taught. In matnv of the cases the parties immediately concerned, could not be charged with alny positive unfairness. But the contract was set aside, simply upon the ground that to enforce such. would be a t,Ablishing a rule, the tendency of which we u d be toencourage immorality to hinder justice or the promotion of sound poliey for the public good. He cited a case from Seig & Rawle' Reports, showing the correctness of this position. If the principle to which he had referred were true; and if gentlemen could see that all contracts should be brought to the test of that principle, and in the name of justice why should they not? where is the ground then for the clamor that is here made against its application to the contract here attempted to be set up? Could it be urged th~at this contract was not against public policy? Against the public good? In fact striking at the very founldationl of our government? Set up this in jurious claim as it is here urged and vou may soon make your governmrent a meres shadow, a miserable cheat and delusion. He now hoped that laid friend, the gentleman from Warren, and all others could easily understand how het could be serious and sinctere in advocating the doctrines which he did; and I 0 ) OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- Tui,:SDAY, DECEMBitR 17. rived at. The language just quoted was alt that he demanded, and hlie trusted that when they had passed the Report, that it would be committed with an un derstanding from a!l sides that such language should be used, as would include all property, not expressly im plied in any act of exemption. That there would be no disputed points thrown out for the legislature, and that every thing should be included on the tax list not otherwise set forth as an exemption in the proviso. He would prefer one to three sections, a comprehensive phrase not subject to doubt, and of such a nature as that it should be understood by the Legislature and the people. Tile form of property under discussion would tihen be taxed; so would Bank stocks; in fact there should be no exempting unless enumerated specifically. What would be the result if the holders of United States stock could each establish an exemption? He would say, so be it. It would be established by the Constitution of fhe United States, the supreme law of the land, when administered by the tribunals of the country, and if they were so to decide, let all submit to their decision. If it was to be the understanding of both parties, that such a general provision, so compre hensive in its nature as not to be misunderstood, was to take the place of the third section, he hoped that such a form would be returned from. the Committee. He did not like repetitions if general terms could convey the same meaning; but so long as there were doubts, and gentlemen show an intention to reserve them for future dispute, it was the duty of the majority, by their votes to record the factof their having at tached a different meaning to the Article. Mr. VANCE (of Butler) would move, as an amendment to that proposed by the gentleman from Clark, the insertion after the words "the faith of the State'" the following words "heretofore pledged by express law." Mr. MASON would, with that gentleman's permission accept his proposition as a modification of his amendment, and in doing so would wish to make one remark. He trusted that the proposition, modified as it was by his acceptance of the amnendment suggested by the gentleman from Butler (Mr. VANcE) would be adopted by a lArge majority of the Convention. He was quite willing that the State bonds should be taxed, provided it could be done and at the same timre th3 good faith and creditof the state be preserved inviolate and intact. Pending the question upon Mr. MASON'S amendm oent, Mr. DORSEY moved that the Committee rise, which was agreed to: I And then, on motion, the Convention adjourned. whatever ills opillon'YligIlt be on the question cf tax ing those bonds, his vo~te should i for striking out the section altogether, because if they believed that they bad the power of taxing them and that it was policy to do so, there was no necessity for its insertion sinoe the Legislature could provide fo r it. Such appeared to him to be thie Comm on sense and practical view of the m at te r, a nd the only view b y wh ich thei r conduct should b e regulated. He wis anxious th at their four mo nths labor should not end in an abortion. By inserting a se ries of propositions hotly disputed, they would array agains t their Constitution a sufficient force to vote it down. There was one class of men who tould he be lieved vote against it at all hazards, because the word 'white" was retained befor e "men;" and there were others who would vote agai nst it for othe r reasons, a nd if they w ere to go on i the nanner described, their labor w hen comple ted w ould have arrayed against it f. r:, enough t o s ink it. From the first originat ion of this Convention h ie ha d protested againsttlis i t ching for legisla tion again s t this anxiety of gentleme n to crowd their own peculiar opiniolps i bto this instrument the ir views of fiaence and taxation, of banking and curren cy; whipchdisputte d opinion mus t sec ur e a defeat of any constitution we may form. He was willing to leave it to the Legislature, and the people, but it was said that we could not trust them, that this Convention should tie up the people's hands feet. We seem to have no confiden.ceo in the people, in present and future generations. Anid unless-they were all bound down, to what the Conventi on (in its wis dom) may consider right, we fear they may run wild. It might be true that those composinog the Convention were wiser than all those that had come before or that may come hereafter, and there mnay be sonme like them for the future, but lie (Mr. NASH) did not believe such doctrine. He had faith in the good sense of the people and believed t hat they w ould d o w ha t was r ight on th is, a s well as on every other question, and therefore he was for expunging the section altogether. The same reomark applies to the next and to some secticlisof the report. They were efforts to legislate and not making a Constitution, and that as he said before they were arraying against them a mighty force sufficien,t to sink the Constitution. He would now propose striking out the whole of the third section. THE CHAIRM AN decided on the amendment be ing out of order, and it was accordingly withdrawn. Mr. MASON proposed the following amendment to add to the end of the 3rd section the following words: "Provided that in making such provision the faith of the State shall be inviolately preserved." Mr. TAYLOR said that he was about to remark, when he had risen with Mr. NASH (to whom lie gave way) that the second section was expressed and in a comprehensive form included in the third and perhaps lie m.;ght add the fourth section, and as he under Stood the obj'ection of the geIntlemiian from Gallia was that' hose sections were repetitions of the others. Mr. NASII. The odjection was that they undertook to settle the question too precipitately. Mr. TAYLOR understood the gentleman to state in the first instance that the general terms employed in the second seAction] included the stocks in question, while, before In closed, he expressed a doubt whether the lan1guage of the section was, "that the Legislature sho0uld provide by law a uniform1 rume of assessm6nAt and taxation, arid shall prescribe such regulations as will secure a just valuation of all property both real anti personal." If that gentlem~anl and those who0 surrou1nded him would meet those on1 his (Mr. TAYnog's) side, frankly and cordially} he had no doubt hut that a compromise, honorable to both parties, would be are TUEsDAY, Dec. 17th, 1850. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. Begger. Mr. LEADBETTER presented a petition from Ainn Mitchell and forty-two others, female citizens of Delaware county, praying that a clause be inserted in the new Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law legalizing the traffic in spirituous liquors. The same gentleman presented a petition from JolIn Mitchell and forty other citizens of Delaware county, on the same subject. Mr. HOLT preseitt;d a petition from S. U. Ripley and eighteen others, citizens of Montgomery county, un the samrie subject. I.06 SIXTY-FIFTH DAY. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TUESDAY, DECEMBER 17. Said petitions were severally referred to the Select' provisions, conditions and pledges of the law of 1825 Committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. had been extended to the stocks issued in 1850? and On motion of Mr. HAWKINS, the Convention re- if so, why such an extension of those pledges had solved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the been made, and by what authority? He did not be orders of the day —Mr. LEADBETTER in the Chair. lieve it had. The question being oin the amendment offered by Mr. REEMELIN said he had last evening learned, Mr. MAsON to the third section of report number one that the law which was passed in 1849, to pay the of the Standing Committee on Finance and Taxa- bonds issued under the law of 1825, and which fell tion, due in 1850, and authorizing the issue of new stocks Mr. HAWKINS said that he did not make the mo- to be exchanged for those that had fallen due, did re tion to go out of the Committee of the Whole last eve- fer to the pledges and conditions of the law of 1825; ning with a view to get the floor this morning, lever- so that if the General Assembly has the right to bar theless as gentlemen seemed disposed to accord it to ter away the power of taxation, it has been done in him, he proposed to make a few, and but a few re- this case as effectually as in any other. So, he be marks. He had listened with great pleasure to the lieved, it was understood by the Legislature, and so discussion that had taken place on both sides of the it was understoodby the bond-holder. question. He had been enlightened and instructed Mr. HAWKINS said that in the law of 1849, refer by the arguments that had been presented. He felt it ence may have been had to the law of 1825, but he his duty to say that he had observed in the remarks had his doubts whetherthe General Assembly intended of no member any disposition to violate the faith of by such reference to continue in force all the provis the State, or to do any act that could be construed ions and conditions of that law. ilto an act of repudiation. It certainly was not his Mr. PERKINS said he had the law in his hand, intention so to do, nor either by his word or his vote and would, if the gentleman desired, read the provi to give the slightest ground for such a charge against sion upon the subject Mr. PExKIS read from the him. He desired above all things, that the utmost law of March 19, 1850, entitled "An act to amend good faith should be preserved by the State toward an act to authorize the Canal Fund Commissioners to the public creditor-that all injustice should be avoid- |exchange certificates of the funded debt of this State, ed-that the muoney borrowed should be paid, and passed March 11, 1849," as follows: that every pledge of the State should be strictly, fully, "Be it enacted by the General issembly of thire State of sacredly, and to the last letter, preserved. Up to this Okie, That the Fund Commissioner are hereby authorized time, the honor of the State has remained untarnish- to issue, in accordance with the provisions and conditionsof ed. th hongh 11l the patpehareiod o ntfris h the act pof February 4, 1825, creating the State debt, and'of ed. Through all the past periods of great pecuiniary the several acts amendatory thereto, transfer~able certifidifficulty and distress, no cause has been given for cates of stock, &c. the slightest imputation, and he should deeply regret Mr. HAWKINS The law of 1849 authorized the if now, in the midst of her obvious progress and exchange, and that of 1850, thesale of the certificates great prosperity, any occasion should be really found of stock and it would seem from the provisions of for so serious a charge. the section just read, that it is incumbent upon us to A difficulty has been suggested in regard to certain guard the interests of the State, in this Constitution, of the securities of the State, that is somnething like or our rights will all be bartered away before we are this: That while a portion of them are not exrnpte awareof it. And the fact that after all that has been from taxation, in the hands of our citizens, by the said,,after all the discussions and agitations that have terms of the contract, or the law under which they taken place in regard to it, the Leogislature should were issued, such chances have been made, or such is assume the authority to exercise such a power, is a the manner in which the emission has taken place, warning to us, to beveryguarded in regard to the disthat we are unable to determine which they are that cretion we leave in their hands, for the future; for no are so exonerated. It did not appear to him that this one can suppose that in 1849, such a pledge as that difficulty could be so great as to be deemed insur- contained in the law of 1825, could be necessary to mountable. The bonds are issued under specific laws the credit of the State. providing for their redemption. They are issued at Well, suppose that the law of and the contract, so a particular time, and payable at a particular time, far as concerns the bonds issued under the act of and it would seem to him an easy matter to determine 1825, and the laws that refer to it are binding upon us, under what particular law they had their origin. Un- we have only to sever these bonds from the whole der the law of 1825, the amount loaned amounted to sum of the credits of the State, and tax the remainthe sum of four millions three hundred thousand dol- der, so far as they are within our reach. Aud this, as lars, which became payable in 1850. For the purpose I said before, does not seemrn to rme to present a case of of cancelling these stocks, the law of 1849 was pass- very great difficulty. For niy part, I must confess, I ed, authorizing the issue of stocks, to be exchanged have my fears of fraud upon the State, in this business for those of 1825; and under this law exchanges were of transfer of bonds. Up to the year 1834, we heard effected to the amount of seven hundred thousand nothing about the necessity of a transfer office; since dollars. But the officers of the State, finding that that time, however, about the sum of one thousand many of the holders of the bonds which fell duI'e in dollars has been semii-annually paid to keep open such 1850 did not desire to continue their investment in an office in the City of New York. the securities of the State, and preferred payment to But admitting the law and the application of it; it an exchange procured the passage of the law of March does not, I apprehend, go to the extent claimed for it 19th, 1850, by which they were empowered to sell the by gentlemen upon the opposite side. It is said that new stocks, and with the avails to pay up and cancel we are prohibited from doing any act by which, dithe old ones. There was one restriction in regard to rectly or indirectly we shall retlirce the~ \O'i-,?r of the the sale of the new bonds, which, he feared, had not securities in question, in the hands of the holders. been observed, and that was a provision that a por- Suppose this to be true- slppo"e it. to be BiM t'eal intion of them should not be so transferred as to put tent and meaning of the law of 1$5, what is the fact them out of the reach of a certain Sinking Fund that of the case? Why, we hav e violated the law a hunhad been provided for their redemption. The sum dred times! Every law authorizing a new issue has sold, at any rate, was sufficient to meet all the stocks been a violation, because it, to some exteiit,depreciates redeemable in 1850, and he desired to inquire if the the value of those previously disposed of. Theemis 107 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TItESDAY, D:cEMBER 17. sion of nearly a million and a half in 1835, was an voice against this practice. He had front the begin act of bad faith, as have been all the others, from img seen the danger that would accrue to the State, that'day to this. Here we have been supposing that and the practical bad faith to the public creditor that we were preserving the reputation-the integrity- was involved in it. The danger was as open to view the good faith of the State, while, in fact we were con- as the sun-beams themselves. Cities are creating debts stantly engaged in its violation. What a delusion! to the amount of two or three millions, and small After promising that we would by no act reduce the counties are assuming obligations of one, two or three valueof our stocks, we, in 1842, threw a million and hundred thousand dollars. It is a gigantic evil, and a half of them into the market, to be sold at fifty or the danger is equally gigantic, and I tell these guarsixty cents on thie dollar, a process having the un- dians oe m blic faith-these aixious conservators doubted tendency to produce the effect we had pledg- of the public boior, that there Is infinite danger that ed ourselves should never take place. large portions of the State will be reduced by the prel As it regards the particular provision that shall go ure of their local debt, to such a condition of insointo the Constitution, I am not very strenuous. I had vency,rthat it will be impossible for them to pay even rather see a declaration that all property in the State that, to say nothing of their share of the debt of the shall be taxed, and then if there are to be exemptions, State. In such a condition of things, will it be possei let them be specially made, so that we may know ble for the remainder of the State to discharge the definitely what they are. I hope, however, that we public obligations as they fall due? shall, but for a few years to come, have such a thing Mr. RE MELIN. Theywillhaveto as a public debt. Then a clause in regard to its tax- Mr. ARCHB LD. The l a ation will have no meaning. It will only stand as Mr. ARCHB LD. The gentleman says they will an excrescence upon the face of our organic law re- have to. Now, I arose to call the attention of all, to mnindingus of the periodof our humiliation. Iope this startling condition of our public affairs. It is however, to see incorporated into this Cnstitution a laudable-it is praiseworthy, in gentlemen to feel for provision that, except to a very limited amount, there the honor of the State. Yet I have not seen one who shall be no public debt contracted in future. I want seemed to appreciate the danger we are incurring, in the debt paid off as soon as possible, fur as no pru- thus creating mountains of public debt. I have always dent man is willing to pay interest while he has the raised my feeble voice and given my vote against power to pay the principal, so no well governed State the practice; yet I have been obliged to vote in a small will be desirous to have a large and burdensome pub- minority-a mere corporal's guard of six or seven. lic debt hanging over it, beyond the period when they Why, I ask, are gentlemen so tender upon one point, are able to pay tie principal. I know that there aread so impossible apoi another. Wiy are they so those who insist that a public debt is a public bless- ready to detect the slightest taint in the breeze at one ilg. This doctrine, more or less covertly, has been time, while at another they are so uInconscious of its declared in this Convention, if no, here, at least, dur- corruption? ilg the session at Columbus. I am not among those Now I admit that we ought to do nothing to endanwho entertain such a belief, and I am sure that noth- ger the public credit. I ad(mit that the law of 1825 ing would give higher sat-isfaction at large to the peo- binds us to do nothing. But I siubuit whether it is not lle of the State, than the fact that all the debts of the better for the bond-holder himself that an exemption State were fiially paid off and discharged. so invidious-so liable to excite the popular clamor and I had no intention to make a speech upon this ques- arouse the popular feeling, should be avoided. I fela tion. I desire only to vote, and so to vote, that thiere sure that the bringing of these bonds utpon the tax list, shall be no ground for a charge against rme of repudi- would add to the estimate of thleir permanency, create a ation. As an individual, I feel the worth of a repoi feeling of security in their ultimate redemption, take tation for integrity. To a State, such a reputationi is away the odium which now attaches to them and to equally valuable, and so far as I act in my official the property they create, and in fact, increase their capacity I desire so to act as to (do 1no injury to the value faith, the credit or the reputation of the State of which Mr. PERKINS said: I did not intend, at the comI am a citizen. eat of this debate, to have spoken, and I did Mr. ARCHBOLD, said he did not intend to de- not change my original intention until after having ain the Committee more than a very few minutes with repeatedly heard statements mnade in regard to the any remarks which he might niake. He rose merely laws under which the debt of the State was created, to add a few surgestious to the remarks of his friend and to the terms upon which her bonds were sold, from Morgan (Mr. HAWKINS) to whom he had -as in- which I knew were incorrect. Yesterday I spentsevdeed he always did-listeined with the greatest interest. eral hours at the office of the Auditor of this county" That gentleman made a remark upon the strange post- in an examination of the laws, and I have miade some tion in which we have placed ourselves by the acts of inquiries at the State offices at Columbus, in reference the General Assembly, since the law of 1825, in doing to the conditions upon which the several loans were precisely what we there covenalted niot to do. It cannot I negotiated, and desire briefly to lay the results before ee controverted that every act which authorizes the is-I the Committee. The information I have to present sue and sale of new stocks is an act whiiclh endangers will, I regret to say, be incomplete, for I have found the interest of the pullic creditor. It was singular it impossible to get access to any full series of the that this view had not been taken by gentlemen who laws of the State, or of the reports of our public ofare so smitten with the liudalie desire to save the hon- licers, but it will suffice, i think, to correct some eror-to save the credit of th1e State. He merely rose to rors into which geutlemeti have fallen in the discusnotice another instance of the same kind. For years sion of this question. past, it has been the practice of tile General Assembly Before proceeding to the subject in hand, I wish to of the State to authoriz clu,~t!es, townships and cities premise a few remarks in reference to the argument to contract enormous debltr. If one quarter of the acts which has been urged here in iustificationr of a dethat have been p':sed ih,1t be carried into effect, the parture from the tenor of the obligatioins created by the total atnount will be vi,stly grtltaer than that of the laws authorizing this debt. It is plainly and merely entire debt ot the Sti,t,.. I'le wotle amount author- an argument infavor of rpuidiation, and may be conized is doubtless ov,er oile tllt,(. i s tillions. In the cisely stated as fellows: it prenitses that all just pnblic councils of the t iLe had always raised his I Governments are formed for certain definite and lim 108 OHIO COI /VEINTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DEcEMBER 17. ted objects, arising necessarily out of the relations of the individuals who compose a State, and susceptible of distinct enumeration and definition-that these objects ma,~ be comprehensively stated to be the preservation of the public order, thei administration of justice and the restraint of offelnders-in short, the protection simply of the rights of person and property, which rights, however, exist prior to, and independent of the Government-that the right of taxation rests in the Government to the extent necessary for the accomplishment of these objects above enumerated, and not farther-that, therefore, the appropriation of money by a Government for purposes of internal improvement is unauthorized, and a fortiari thie borrowing of money and the contracting of a funded debt for such purposes is unauthorized and unjust, being of the nature of an usurpation, and in fraud of the rights of the citizen. Hence all State bonds and stocks created for purposes of internal imnprovement are claimed to be null and void, aborigine, being tainted with fraud and usurpation. Now, I will not undertake to say that these views are destitute of force. I will not say but that I might myself adopt them if the policy of creating a public debt was to be continued and extended in this country. What I do wish to say is this: that the Legislature, by repeated acts and the people, by the clearest indications of public opinion in every portion of the State, and the members of this Convention, individutally, as they have risen on the floor, have expressly waived this argument. They have declared their intention not to go behind the laws creating this debt, or to inquire into the authority of the Legislatures by I which they were passed. They have agreed to assume the laws according to their termis, and to discharge the debt, if not as a legal, at least as an honorable obligation. I then submit, that gentlemen having expressly waived this argument, have no right to introduce it into this discussion. They have no right, when driven to the wall upon every other argument, to tax these bonds, to resort to the charge of original bad faith in our Legislatures, or with obligations which, in the name and on behalf of the people, those Legislatures have assumed. Moreover, the result of the argument is repudiation, not taxation. It goes to the whole sum, and not to a part; and if gentlemen desire to repudiate, let them say so in plain terms, and come up in practice to the extent of their predicate. I shall assure Mr. Chairman, that the people have acknowledged the obligation of the debtthat they intend to pay it,,and that they intend to pay it ac cording to the terms upon which their representatives have contracted it. Upon this assumption let us first look a moment into the law of this case; and here I do not claim, I do not wish to claim that the power of taxation can be alienated by one Legislature, so as to preclude its exercise by another. I do not claim that in the parallel case of Eminent Domain, that right can be alienated. I do not claim that ordinary laws exemnpting property from execution or from taxation, vest any right in the owners of such property, to hold such exemption except at the discretion of each succeeding General Assembly. What I do claim is simply what the ge~ntlernanl from Hamilton, and other speakers on that side, have conceded, to-wit: that if the State, by an express contract, and in coesideration of a sunI of money which she received, to her full satisfaction at the time of entering into the contract, has waived the right of taxation, she has, by that act, established an equity in the holders of her securities which must be cancelled before the right of taxation can be resumed. pardb( iylgsaiv c fti tt. Acts of 1825 (In/:25, - - - $490,000 and 1826, I In 1826 - 1,000,000 In 1I 27, 1,230,00 In 1828, 1- -,200,000 l I,, 1829, - 600,000 Act of 18'39. (Wabash and Erie Canal, 700,000 Wes. Res. and Maumiee road, 100,000 Walhaonding Canal, - 150,000 Hocking Canal, - - 300,000 Warren Co. Canal, - 60,000 Muskin,um Imuprovement, 430,000 Zanesvilie Improvenleiit, 50,000 Act of 1846. (Miami Extension Canal, 12,813 ] Wabash and Erie " - 3,925 Wabash and Erie "2 - 9,000 (Sundry Works, 60,000 Acts of 1849, ( Six per cts., 1 1,541,468 amended1850 ~ Six per cts., - 1,69,)0,000 . Five per cts., - - 1,000,000 Total, - $10,428,206 In all, tell m ill ions, four hu sdredl a,id twenty-eight thou,,an d,two hii ii dred and six dollars-wfliieh loans, were all actually negotiated. The sums I have stated as authorized to be borrow. ed under the various acts meationed, are all recited specially in the acts tlhemselves with the exception of the stocks re-issued under the acts of 1850, and for the amounts so re- issued. I have thie autlhority of a lett I 109. I shall. endeavor then to show, First, That the State has agreed to exempt from taxation more than one half of her bonds by express law, and that she ha,, assumed the same obligation as to nearly, if not all the balance of her bond.-,, so far as'she can be bound by, the acts of her a,,ents, and by the form of thebonds she has issued; and Secondly, I sliall endeavor to show that the bond-holders have paid the State a full equivalent for that exemption in money. The statutes under wich the debt of the State has been created, are to be found in some 15 or 20 volumes of laws, a portion of -which, I have not been able to obtain. Those which I have examined contain six laws authorising loans, and creating either in direct tern-is, or by reference to precediii, laws, an exemption from taxation of the bonds to be issued under .them. They are as follows: The law passed Feb. 4,1825; the act aiiiendatorv of the preceding, passed Jan. 18, 1826; the act pa;sed March 16, l.9, the act passed March 2, 18,f6l and the act passed March 21, i849, as amended by the act passed March 19, 1850. These acts alt embrace substantially the following pledge, which has already been correctly quoted fkoin the act of 1825, and is as follows: OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DECEMBER 17. in Brough's report, (which I send you) opposite several of the earlier loans. You can rely upon these items if 50 the original entries are correct. Mr. Woods has furnd nished me a statement as to the rates of last sum2r- mer's sales,which I also enclose. They are the only }0: ones since 1843, I believe." nd The documents sent by the Secretary of State, show ve the following facts: m 1825 $400,000 five per cts. sold at 2 per ct. dis. it 1826 1,000,000 six per ct. I " 8 4-100 per et. pM. r- 1827 1,200,000 " for $77,580 67-l100 pn. 1828 1,200,000 a" a iat 4 7-100 per ct. pm. ct 1830 600,000 E. 1757-100perct.pm. In 1832 100,000 " 24 perct. pin. he 1837 500,000 a 1257-100 perct.pm. n 1838 700,000 6 per ct. pm. ais 1839 175,000 " 8per ct. pm. io 1850 1,600,000. 1 "1 "."1296-10perct.pm. a,a 1,000,000 five per ct." 1 33-100 per ct.pl-m. e, 1,541,468 six per ct. " 5 to 8 per ctpm. a This statement embraces all the information sent if me by the Secretary of State, being as far as he could pursue the investigation in the time at his command. 5 I will venture, however, to mnake some further stateo ments in relation to this subject, which I am certain d are correct, although I have not any documetiary evr- idence at hand. I assert then that up to 1840, no loan e of this State was ever negotiated at a discount, except the first loan above mentioned of $400,000 in 1825, w which was a five per cent loan,and which was sold at ninety-seven and a half cents in New York, then n equal to par in Ohio. All the others were sold at rates e ranging from par to 24 pTer cent premium. I furthere more assert that no other stocks were ever sold by - the State at a discount, except a comparatively small e amount which were hypothecated in New York by aut thority of the Legislature to raise means for the pay ment of interest on the debt, and which not being rec deemed in season were afterwards sold at a sacrifice by e the companies to which they had been hypothecated e but the whole sum so hypothecated and sold at a diso count was less than a mnillion and a half, and possibly I less than a million of dollars. All the residue of our e stocks have sold as I have before said, at rates ranging f from par to twenty-four per cent premium. ~ I would now ask, Mr. Chairman; why premiums of six, twelve and from that to twenty-foutr per cent have been obtained upon these bonds, when, during the whole period in which they have been sold, monet has been worth from eight to fifteen per cent in all commercial business transactions? It was becauseit was known that the bonds were by law exempt from taxation, and men were willing to pay a consideration for such exemption. The bond-holders have paid for our securities prices nearly equal to tihose paid at the same periods for the bonds ofthe U. States,and simply, of course, because they wereunderstood to be placed up on the samefooting with those ofthe U. States, exelmp tion from taxation. The bond holders then, I assert, f have in reality paid this tax, and paid it too in ad vanrce; and whether the right of taxation be alienable or not, the State must be ruled to have waived this right for a full consideration, and thereby to have cresf ated an equity in the holders of her bonds which in o all fairness, she is bound to cancel before the right of '~ taxation should be resumed. p I now desire to refer to the distinction which gen, tiemen have attempted to establish between the tax' ation of these bonds in the hands of non residents, : and the taxation of the interest held in tlhem by citi zens of the State. It is urged that when the law was passed, the Legislature anticipated that the certificates t would all be negotiated in New York and London, and that the sole intent of the law was to relieve th fr om John Woo ds, Audit or of State, which I hold my hand. A portion of the re-issues under the act of 18' wenre for the redemption of Stocks issued in 1826 ar 27-how large a po rtion I have bee n u nable t o asce tain. It has been stated o n this flo or to be $700,00 If so, it still leaves nine millions seven hundred ax twenty-eight thousand dollars, which I show to ha been originally issued under an express pledge fro the State to exempt them from taxation-and this, be remembered, is the-result.of an investigation into a pa tial and incomplete series of the laws. In the same connection I wish to state a further fa~ which I beg the Committee to receive as of my ow personal knowledge. I have looked for one of th bonds of Ohio throughout the City, and have, not bee able to find or to hear of aly except one which said to be locked in a box in deposit with the Ohi Life Insurance and Trust Companiy, belonging to gentleinan who is absent from the city, and has th key in his possession. I cannot therefore procure bond, or the form of a bond; but I take it upon myse to say, that all of the 186G six per cent bonds recit that they are issued in pursuance of the laws of 182~ 1826, and other years, specifying them seriatum up t 1842, expressly shlowing and publishing to the worl that the State through her officers and agents did recog nize upon the face of the bond the obligations of th lawof 1825 to the debt redeemable in 1860. Th amount of the 1860 six per cent bonds, here referred to was originally six millions nine hundred and one thou sand seven hundred and eighty-one dollars, which sun however included the bonds issued in pursuance of th law of 1839, and embraced in the previous table'to the amount of one million seven hundred and niniety thou sand dollars, leaving five millions one hundred and elev enl thousand seven hundred and eighty-one dollars no included in the previous table, which are issued unde the authority of laws that I have not been able to dis cover, but which by an express declaration on the fase of the inistruiment comes under the exem ptioni of the law of 1825. In stating the above facts in regard t( the form of the 1860 bonds, I rely upon memory, but am convinced that I am not myiistaken. and hope to be able to prove, mv assertion by an exhibition of one o the bonds, before a final vote upon this question is takell in the Convention. Torecapitulate: If I am correct in the preceding remnarks,there is one portion of the debt of Ohio which I can show to have been issued under an exemption from taxation in the form of express law, to the amount of........................ $9,728,000 Also another portion issued under laws to which I have not access but which receipts upon the face of the bond the same exemption to the amount of $5,111,000 Total.......................... $14,839,000 In all fourteen millions eight hundred thirty nine thousand dollars, being within about one and a half millions of our whole reducible debt-for which balance I do not undertake to prove anything pro or connot having the authorities at hand. I will next proceed to show that the purchasers of our securities have paid to the State of Ohio a fair and full consideration for this exemnption1. For the purpose of corroborating my own evidence on this subject, I addressed a let~ter to the Secretary of State, asking him to transmit a statement of the term~s upon vhich our stocks had been sold. In reply, he says: "I spent an hour or two yesterday at the Fund Commissioner's Office,exmninlng original entries on theold Journals &c., -and have noted the rates of discount and premriumn as far as I could find them onl Mr. 110 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DFCEMBER 17. foreign bond-holder from the fear that his securities might be taxed "eo nomine," collectively at the Treas ury, and not to impair the right of the State to tax the property of her own citizens, invested in such bonds. I admit that a distinction might be made between the two cases; and that if the Legislature had chosen to make such a distinction, it would have been a good one. The truth however is, they did not make it. The idea never entered into their heads, or into the heads of the purchasers of the bonds, while the business was being done. And as illustrating this question, I wish to direct your attention to the amount of bonds that were originally issued to citizens of this State. For this purpose I hold in my hand the Report of Mr. Brough, made to the Legislature Feb. 15, 1845. Now, sir, with my limited knowledge of the people of Ohio, I can figure up from this Report the sum of nearly four millions, about one-quarter of the whole debt, which had been contracted up to the tinie the Report was made, that were originally issued to citizens, banks and corporations in this State. Mr. REEMELIN. Re ad t he names. Mr. PERKINS. B ank of Muskingum, i- - $25,000 Bank of Ma r iet ta, - - - 125,000 Bank of Muskitagun, - - - 50,000 T. P. Handy, - - 100,000 Gustavus Swan, - - 10,000oo ...... - 50,000 Joel Buttles, - - - - 10,000 S. F. Maccracken, - - - 108,5e00 &c., &c., tc., u ip to a total amount of three millions six hu ndred and seventy-five thousand d oll a r s' Mr. REEMELIN.'those stocks may have been sold in ten days afterwards in New York. Mr. PERKINS. I do not know w heth er these me n and institutions purchased these stocks to keep or to sell, but I do know that they transacted the business in their own names, and whatever equity was created between the State and the purchaser of her bonds under the exemption in her laws, accrued directly and with the fiull knowledge of the Legislature to citizens of this State. I believe these facts care sufficient to show that the distinction above referred to, although it might have been a good one, if expressly made originally by the Legislature which passed the law, was in point of fact never made, and that to introduce it here at this late day, is a mere quibble entirely unworthy of the dignity of this State. I wish to say,,Mr. Chairmnan,in conclusion,that there is no doctrine I more fuily believe than the doctrine that taxation should be uniform, equal and universal, and that all property should alike assist in bearing the burdens of the State which affords it its protection. But, Mr. Chairman, it is no fault of mine that the State has seen fit to enter into a contract for the relinquishment of this right, and to receive a sum of money in commutation therefore It is true I believe that in so doing the State made a good bargain. I believe if the agents of the State should to-day go into New York market with a seven per cent loan, subject to taxation in one hand, and a six per cent loan exemrpt from taxation in the other, that the. six per cent, loan would bring the highest price. But etren if I did not 90 believe, I find my action in this case controlled by the action of my predecessors, and so lone as I represent any portion of the sovereignty of Ohio Ishall look for no middle-ground between repudiation and a full discharge of the plighted faith and honorable obligations of this State. I am oppoqed, Mt.. Chairman, to this wh0ol system of a public debt. I shall vote on ever y occasion to preclude the Legislature anh t o pr e clude a ll counties, cities and towns, from ever hereafter contracting debts f or internal improvements. I believe our system of internal improvemen ts by t he State is nothing buta curse and I beieve we ha d be tte r sell them to-day for a song, than undertake to keep and manage them for fifty years. But with'h e burdens of this government, established by our fathers, have also descended to us its blessings, find I wish to discharge in full, at the realiest practicable period,i the liabilities they have inse cinurred, and th en re ligiously a void incur ring any more. I have already said that I have usoaght in vain for bond in thlis city. Mr, REEMELIN. There are b anks i n this city holding bonds. Mr. PERKINS, They are deposited with the Treasurer of State in seeurity for their circulation. After diligent inquiry, I have heard of but a single one in the hands of an individual, and that was inaccessible. Is not this fact of some force as showing the trifling amount of tax w hich woul d be realised from these bonds if taxed as proposed only in hands of citizens of this State. In the commercial capital of the State, but one bond has been found in a day's search. I have no doubt that the whole amount belonging to citizens of this State, including the amounts held by banks, is less than three millions and probably less than two and a half millions of dollars. I am lnot prepared to coma promtse the creditof the State for the tax upon this sum. I have no wish to place the State of Ohio among tle. Esawsand Iscariots of this world. If we barter away our birth-right in her faith and honor, let us not do it for a mesa of pottage,or for thirty pieces of sil vet. Mr. BARBEE did not rise for the purpose of argument, but to add to what had been said by the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. PERKINS,) and also with a view to correctwhat had been said relative to the laws, anad, if he could, to correct an impression that had gone abroad, arising from the arguments of the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. GROESBECK.) Mr. Chairman, (said Mr. B.,) I understood that gentleman as taking the ground, that an attempt to exempt State Bonds from taxation, was void for want of certainty, as the acts under which those bonds had been respectively issued, could not be identified, or that you could not identify what particular bonds had been issued under the act of 1825 or that of 1839-that there had been some fifteen or twenty acts passed, one or two only of which carried on their face the exemption embracedin the act of 1825. And I did understand the gentleman to come to the conclusion, that of the whole amount issued, (which was some eighteen millions,) fifteen millions had been issued under acts that did not carry on their face the exemption, and that three millions only were entitled to such exemption in any state of the case. Hence, he argued that where the amount really exempted was small, it would be dangerous to exempt any, lest such exemption should extend to thhe g reater p ortion which was subject to taxation; and that, therefore, it would be no breach of the faith of the State to tax all. Mr. Chairman, I propose very briefly to examine this position. It may not be amiss for me here to state that I was one of the Committee on Finance and Taxation, and when I entered upon the duties assigned to that committee I was in favor of taxing the bond holder; for up to that time I had not examnined the subject, nor bestowed much thought upon it, as an abstract proposition. I then, and do yet, hold it right and proper that every citizen who receives the fostering care and protection of government should, and of ill 112 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DECEMBER 17. right, ought to, contributeto sustain that government in proportion to the amount of what he, she, or they may be worth. This, to ny mind, is th e on ly true basis for taxation. With these views and feelings I went into that crommittee, determi ned to tax every species of property, as a principle of right. On taking up the laws creating our State debt, I went back to the act of 1825, and there I find, as has been st ated, that the act declares "that no tax shall be levied by the Legislature, under tile authority of the State, o n the Stock s to be created by virtue of this act, n or on the int ere st which may be p ayable there on, and that the value of the said stocks sh'all in no wise bve impaired by any legislative act of the State." Here, Mr. Chairmanl, I find a positive promise —a pledge-yea, plighted Jaith-given to the State and to the world. If you will lend us your money, (said the Legislature,) to prosecute the undertaking we are about to embark in, your money, thus invested, shall not be subject to the burthens of taxation. Yea more, we pledge our faith that no act on our part shall ever be done to impair the value of the investment we in vite you to make. Mr. Chairman, I have not been able to ascertain the amount of stock issued under that act of 1835, but am inclined to the opinion that at least one-third, if not half of all our stocks were created under that act. I then went into an examination of all the laws that I could find touching this subject, and now regret that these laws are not before me. I have just made search for them, in the Library to whichl we have access in this city, but can find none, and therefore have to rely on the limited notes I made at Columbus, at our Summer session. Mr. Chairman, I said one object I had was to correct the error of the gentlemnani from Hamilton, when he asserts tlhatbut three millions were issued under acts which carried on their face the exemption from taxation. Several acts were passed subsequent to the act of 1825 authorizing the issue of stocks without the terms stipulating this exemption. These will be found in Vol. 34, local laws, pages 331, 336, 311,620, 624, also Vol. 35, L L, 467, Vol. 36 general laws. These several acts it will be found, authorized in the aggregate the issuing of but a small amount of stock. The act of March 1839, Vol. 37 —page 68, authorized the issuinig of near two millions upon the same terms of the act of 18'25, and refers in express terms to the section creating the exemption in that act. Sm,.l1 loans were authorized afterwards, without any expression on the subject of exemption, as will be found nll Vol. 38, Vol. 41, and Vol. 44. By the act of Marc] 185I, Vol. 48, page 56, the ftun-d commissioners are authorized to issue certificates of stock in accordanice with the "act of 1825, and the several acts amendatory thereto. Mr. Chairman, I now wish to ca;l the attention of Hon. gentlemen to an important fact, not brought to view by any of the preceeding speakers. It may be I am in error, but if so, I hope some g,rentlemian will correct me Take tie act of 1825, and that of 1839, and of 185), all of which have on their t;ace, the exemption clause, aned it will be forund that u~dl ear these three acts were issued more than half (anld i 57ill veture to say from the e~xamrination 1 have givw lt this subject that full two thtirds) of all the stocks,,f Ohio, were issued under theme three acts.- GBut thev important point I wiishl to attain is, what was tile fair at d le itimlate cold'r-t'mlrdinl of theLeg isaure, taking into viewe all,th{,', acts,- especially the first madth~te Mist. An~d here let ~n~; stop and inquire what atre we to understanld by"' i hi- -faith of the State?": It is apromrise made or implied, to (lo or not to do a: certain thing. Now if my position is correct that the three acts referred to did authorize the issuing of the largest portion of our stocks, expressly exempting them from taxation; what, I ask, is the fair inference-? And what did the Legislature mean, when it de clared in the act of 1850 (the last act authorizing the issuing of stocks where it was declared that the certificates of stock issued under that act should be in "accordance with the provisions and condi tions, of the act of l825,and the several acts amenda tory thereto?" Clearly they did understand that all the acts subsequent to the act of 1825, and up to that time creating State stocks were amendatory to the act of 1825, and if amnendatory I ask legal genitlemen, is there not force and argument in that expression of "amendatory thereto?" The Legislature did under stand that all the acts which preceeded the act of 1850 were amendatory to the act of 1825, and if so, I ask legal gentlemen if they would not carry with them all the rights and exemptions of the original act? It seems to me that 1 have shown the gentlema n fromin Hamilton to be in error, and that more than half of all our stocks have been expressly exempted by law from taxation. The whole, by fair implication are exempt and were so understood by the different Legislatures and the people at large. Mr. Chairman, I will again refer to the remarks of tlthe gentleman from Hamilton. He stated that to tax such portion of the bonds as were exempted, under the laws of 1825 and 1839, would be no Viola tioni of the good faith of the State, because there was only a very small amount of them (being three millions) which could be identified as coming under the acts authorizing exemption. He seems to admit, that, that if they could be identified, it would be un fair to tax them. So far we agreed. I would ask the gentleman, it being the fact, that only a small portion was exempt, would he not do equal injustice to tax all, when the fact was clear, that a miajority in amount was ex eimpt? Mr. Chairman; It was my misfortune to differ with the majorityof the committee on finance and taxation, and I did make the minority report, in which I re. cognizethe principle of taxing the citizens on the amounteach is worth and evei- now, I hold to that rule, with the exception of a few objects which I would exempt; subject,however,to the discretion of the Legislature. I also make an exception where such exemption would come in conflict wiih the Constitution ofthe United States, and the faith heretofore pledged by this State. Sutch, for instance, I regard State Bonds, Banks and other corporations; as I hold them to be contracts, and can't be changed or modified, but by consent of both parties. Mr. B. said he would answer an argument — that had been urged in the the course of this debate; that was, that the friends of taxing bonds did not propose to tax the bonds, but the'imioney invested in them. Mr. Ck airman, I cannot myself see the distinction that gentlemen do. Let me answer by a parallel case. Take the case of the United States exempting lands from taxation for five years after their entry, to which the State of Ohio responded, and made the act her own. I ask, is not this exemption from taxation, as much a part of the contract, as the purchase money required; and does it not enter into the coasideration of the purchaser as much as the money paid? wVerily it does.A nd suppose these same lands,so purchased, change hands, as they do, and also change in value, before the end of five years. Was not the exemption as fully taken into consideration by the subsequent purchaser, as the money to be paid and OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuLsDAY, DEcrE,MBER 17. agreed upon as the price? To my mind it is just as Cries of"question"-"question," amidst consideraclear, and it entered into the bargain as fully as if it ble merriment. were a part of the purebase money, which in reality Mr. MITCHELL'S amendment was rejected; and it was, and it was a part and parcel of the proposi- the question recurred upon the amenedment of the gention made by the State, and inseparable from that tleman from Clark proposition. Having thus complied with the terms Mr. GREGG proposed to amend the amendmnent, by of the State, paid the purchase mioney, and being in adding the following possession of the lands, the Assessor comies along possession of t ahe lands, the Assessor coes along, "And provided, further, That our duty to the great tax-payand claims the right to assess a tax on my land. I ing interest of the state, shall be faithfully performed, and the plead the exemption and state that the five years have right of "eminent domain" and of taxation, also invariably not yet expired, and this, was a part of the contract, observed." viz: that my land was not to be taxed. The Assessor, Mr. STANTON would like to know how the right replies, "Sir I do not desire to tax your land but only of emiinent domain, came to be connected with this the money you paid for the land." subject? I putit to honorable gentlemen on the other side Mr. GREGG. It was connected with the right of if this isa good and valid answer to my plea for ex- taxation and was a part of the state sovereignty. emption? Nay verily it is but to mlock Justice and This amendment was agreed to; and the question good faith. recurred upon the adoption of the amendment as Mr. Chairman, I have briefly given my views, and aniended. think I have but expressed the views of a majority of Mr. MASON. I offered this amendment last evenan honorable constituency, that I stand here to rep- ilg, in good faith; and I supposed it would conmmend resent, and also of the State generally. I shall, there- itself to the approbation of a majority of the members fore, vote for the amendment to preserve the faith of- f this body. All who have addressed the Committee the State. have professed their-willingness, nay more,their desire Mr. MITCHELL proposed to amend the proposi that in the proposed taxation, the plighted faith of the tion of the gentleman from Clark, (Mr. MAsoN) by State should be preserved, —especially with regard to adding the following: that class of bonds which have been expressly exempt "Provided, also, That in the opinion of this Convention ed from taxation under the solemnii pledge of the State the highest good faith known to the State of Ohio, as a gov- that they never should be taxed Gentlemen have pro ernment, is her so'-emo pledge to pass just, wholesome aod fessed an ardent attachment to the honor and characequal laws at any and all times when Justice and Equalityr a requirethem, and in doing so, to have due respect to the ter of the State, and, that on all proper occasions, they rights of the tax-payers, rather than the clamor of the un- would be found ad(vocating the honor and credit of the scrupulo u s andabaned Shylocs, who, are, and for some- State, and that they would by no means be found viotime have been, endeavoring to purchase her priceless freedom for a paltry mess of pottage." Inting the faith of the people, as pledged by their rep Mr. MASON raised a question of order, staring that resentatives to the public creditors. I thought that the the amendment was in the third degree. amendment offered, would relieve the section from the And, after debate upon the question of order, in principal objection to its adoption. The section pro. which Messrs. MITCI —IELL, ARCHBOLD, REEMELIN, HUM- vides that the LI,egislature shall make provisions for taxPHREVILLE, BARNETT of Preble, and others participated. ing money invested in these bonds; and the proviso The CHAIRMAN decided that Mr. MAsoN's mo- which I have offered, asserts nothiing nmore, than that, tlon, being for the perfection of the original section, in making these provisions, the faith of the State shall was susceptible of amendment, and, therefore, the be preserved, not asserting that the faith of the State amendment of Mr. MITCI-ELL was in order. has been pledged to exempt a given amount, or all of Mr. NASH rather thought there was a defect or so those bonds, but merely, if it should be found that the in the amendmtent. Hle s ould suggest, that it ought to faith of the State had been committed, not to tax any be settled as to wihlt sort of'pottage" this was. It or all of these bonds, then the State shall not put itself certainly became a very grave question, if the State into the disreputable attitude of violating its solemn had been bought up with a mess of pottage, that we promise. should know what sort of pottage it A as-whether it Now, it seems to me, that, if the professions of genwere comnion fish and potatoes, or pork and cabbage, tlemei were sincere, they would agree to vote for the or, if it were soup, w;.ethir it were corn-soup or bean- adoption of the proposition that I have offered-that soup. Such a grave troposition, ought, by all means, the faith of the State shall not be dislinodred and to go out "with not-, andi comment;" so that our cliit- trampled under foot, when it has been pledged by exdren, and our childreii's children might know and un- press provision of law. derstaud it perfectly, in all its abstractions and coecre- Does this proviso interpose a difficulty in theway of tions; if, indeed, it were really true, that this Conven- carrying out the foregone conclusion of gentlemen, tion, of which we had boasted so much, had actually that they will tax thesebonds,right orwrong? Have bargained and sold out the honor and faith of the State they determined that they will violate the pledged for a mess of pottage. And, then, as to this rmanl Shy- faith of the State, and therefore they will not vote for lock, who is repres inted as a party to this operation,- my proposition? he was a very important personage; and if there If there has been no faith pledged-if there is no should happen to be another conflagration of literature, faith to preserve-the proposition, at least, is harmand Shaksperire were to be lost, it might inot be known less. It does no wrong. It injures nobody. It misto future generations who this man was. It was cer- leads nobody. Its adoption would be simply saying tainly very imjortlat trat we should know and declare to the world, that it is the sincere desire of this body particularly wiho this Shylock was, and what was this not to commit an outrage upon good morals. I should mess of poltage, -Jr which he purchased the credit of think that gentlemen would take pride in voting for the State, and took away the rights of the peopleof a proposition to sustain the honor and faith of the Ohio. For his part, he tiad never before heard that the State. rights of the people had been sold to this man Shylock. Mr. Chairman, I am sorry-it grieves me —to see It was all- new's to him-and therefore he would be grave, intelligent, respectable men, a~s faras their vote glad to hear also whether there was any utility in the can do so, attemptitng to cast contempt and ridicule equivalent received. - > - upon a. proposition, the otject of whseh was simply I I 114 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUFSDAY, DECEMBnER 17. l and if it had been adopted, of course I should have - voted against the whole. e The original section, as it now stands, meets my views. I want no provisos. All I shall have to do, to justify my action in support of it, will be, to go home, and tell my constituents that we hleave placed them upon an equality with "the rest of mankind;" that we protect 1no species of property from taxation; but place all on a perfect equality, in consonance with the i genius and spirit of our institutions. I will go home r and tell them, ghat they are not exempt from taxation in anything they hold; that farms and homesteads, and , mechanic's tools and stock-holders of every variety - shall be'placed upon a perfect equality as to the matter of taxation; and I would ask for nothing better, than to confess before them that I voted against every propL osition to exempt property from taxation, and especial ly that which interests the bond-holders; for it is well known that, as a class, they are not slow to ask for the protection of government; and, so far as my vote is concerned, I intend that they shall not be slow any longer in the matter of bearing their share of the bur dens of government. I will tell the gentleman from Clark, that I am prepared to vote against his proposition-right in its face. Mr. MASON (in his seat). That is manly. Mr. SAWYER. But I will also tell him what I am not prepared to do, and wvhlat I dare not do. I dare not vote to exempt the property of those bond-holders. I also am the holder of no small amount of State stocks; and I intend that they shaill be taxed by my vote; and I believe that any man who would refuse to ' tax them, cannot be a faithful representative of the people. eI have been in favor of exempting burying-grounds and school houses Mr. MASON (interposing). I would like to inquire of the gentleman, whether, in his judgment, it would not be a surrender of a portion of the sovereign power, to exempt grave-yards from taxation? Mr. SAWYER. It looks so. Mr. MASON. Would it not be so; without merely "looking so?" Mr. SAWYER. It maybe so. But, whether taxed or not, the result would be the same. For, if the proprietors would refuse to pay, the graveyard would be of no value as an object of public sale. Nobody would buy a graveyard. It is really worth nothing. Mr. MASON (in his seat). Would not the doctors pas something. for it? or. SAWYER. That was rather a nice question But, after all, he would go for taxing graveyards too for he believed in every sentiment and sentence, with; reference to this subject, which was delivered yesterday by the gentleman from Hamilton (Mr. GRoEsSErCK).;Ie believed that we ought to exempt nothing. Mr. TAYLOR (interposing), I agree with the gentleman from Auglaize as to his general reasoning; but I wish he would not use the word'-exempt," any more in this discussion. Why not say, tax every form and description of property, and then give the Le,islature p ower to remit the taxes upon particular descriptions? M like that phrase better. Mr. SAWYER. I know that I do not use very good language, but I am happy to discover that my friend from Erie, [Mr. TAYLOR], understands nay meaning, and agrees with me upon this subject. I believe, from several votes which have been taken, that the -Convention have determined to adopt the section by an overwhelming majority; and that the gentleman from Clark may make up his m~ind to take the Constitution with this section in it. Mr. LARWILL. From the remarks of the }ion to do homage to the plighted faith of the State. And the gentleman from Knox, (Mir. MiITCHELL,) has under taken, by means of an amendment, to do the same thing, and very many others with him, have not been ashamed to stand up here, in the *y-light, and vot for it! I will n ot make this the occ asion of a serious, argu mentative reply to the various sugg estions that have be en m ade. I hav e a no the r purpos e in rising n ow. You have agreed to incorporate upon my proposit ion a most ridiculous and contemptible paragraph, under the p reten ce of an amendment, offered on purpose to embarra ss and prevent the success of mi y proposition, just b ecause you have not the mor al courage to vie against i t dire ctly. I submit, whe the r it would not have been more h onorable to vote against my propo sition direc tly, t han to undertake first to load it down with ridiculous and i mpe rtinent matter, for which no man would vote? I ask if it would not have been mo re manly, m or e d ignified, to have assumed t he re sponsibility of votin g di rectly against my propost tlon? I would like to see gentlemen come up and do so ye t. I could vote for the original secti on with much more satisfaction, with this amendment, than without it, and unless there should be an insuperable objection in the way, of taxing United States bonds, I can vot e for the entire section, with the simple res erv ation, th a t e oo r o the honor of thae State shall be main tained. I am making no argument, in -regard to our right to tax U. S. bonds,but I have referred to them rather tor the purpose of explaining my own position, and to convince gentlemen, if I could do so, of the sincerity of purpose with which my amendment was offered. Gentlemenii mistake themselves, when they undertake to cast ridicule upon those who, though in a humble way, endeavor to preserve inviolate the faith and honor of the State. You may do what you will to cast rid icule upon me. Your shafts fall harmless at my feet, they strike me not. 1 am willing to be found in com pany with those who labor to maintain public honor in the faithful performance of our contracts. Mr. MITCHELL (interrupting.) It is, perhaps, due from me, that I sh ould state, that in offering the prop osition I did, it was the fartherst thing from my mind to offer a personal indignity to the gentlemnan from Clark. I offered the paragraph, simply because it em bodied the sentiments of my ow n mind upon the subject. Mr. MASON. I accept the statement, andI believe t is entirely true. I have no idea, that the amendment was offered by the gentleman from any motive personal to myself, but to get rid of the responsibility of acting directly upon my proposition; I have no idea that there is a gentleman on that side of the Chamber, who desires to offer me any personal affront. The motive is to get rid-of a proposition which gentlemen dare not'vote against. I believe that there is a majority of the body, who would vote for my proposition; and you will have hard drilling to defeat it. I think it will yet carrv. There is no mistake about it. And, whatever may happen to it in committee of the whole, gentlemen will have to record their names upon it some other (lay, anld they may make up their minds to do so. Nor. SAWYER~. Ttle extraordinary character of the remarks of the gentleman from Clark(Mr. MAsoN) induces me to say a word. H-e seemed to think that some of us were afraid to vote against his propositio~n. But I will tell him that I shall vote right square against it, without any hesitation whatever. Iareted for the amendment, of- the gentleman from Kno,s for the pur. pose of making the original preposition more odious; t I s t 0 n t 11 0 p 0 b p B B I i d OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, DECEMBER [7. 115 oralhle gentleman from Clark, I feel called upon toex-' plainly, that by my vote or by my action, she shall plain my object in votine for tlhe proposition of the never have such an endorsement. gentlernian from Knox, [Mr. MLiTCHELL]. I voted for For these reasons I shall vote against the amenidthat amendment, not with a view of affording any per- ment of the gentleineii from Clark, let it comie in what soinal insult to the genitlemran froni Clark, or any oth- shape it nmay; a}~ am willing to record my vote and er member of this body, but with a disposition to de- abide the result. feat the amnidmenlt of tilhe gentleman from Clark. So, The amendment of Mr. MAsoN, as amended, was when that gentleman undertakes to say that we are now rejected. either ashamed or afraid to vote directly agdinst the On motion by Mr. LARWILL, the committee now amendment he has offered, his remarks canuot apoly rose, reported'No coTIclusion," and then to mte. I never yet have, and I trust that I never shall, On motion, by Mr. MORRIS, the Convention took give a vote in ally deliberative body, which I would be recess till 3 o'clock, P. a. ashamed to record in the most direct manlier. When the gentleman's amendment was first offered, I ob- AFTERNOON SESSION. served that it was well calculated to catch my party 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. friends tipon this side of the House; and, I think I also coininunicated to gentlemen around me, thiat,I EXCHANGE OF PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES WITH TIlE INDIshould vote against it, for the reasons offered by the I ANA GONVENTION. gentleman fromn Atiglaize, [,Mr. SAWYERJ. That pro- Mr REEMELI,IN moved to reconsider the vote of position would not meet the wishes of the people of poe so far as I awl conversantt witheo them eople- I yesterday adopting the resolution instructing the State the State.sfa,,sIacovrnm especi-.Printer to send a copy of the proceedings and debates ally my own constituents. For, if there is any ques- of this body to each of the members of the Indiana tioli upon which I have received instruction, it is upon Constitutional Conention PolConstitutional Convention. this proposition to place public stocks uipon the tax Te PRESIDENT having entertained the motion list. I, therefore, could give no vote which could be IMr.. said he had been t e formed that i reolution undestod,t anexcue fr voingagaist xempidg Mr. R. said he had been informed that his resolution understood as an excuse for voting agaitist exemptingc could not be carried out without re-printing. Seeing that species of property. that the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAWYER,) who If I were one of these State bond-ioldlers, as amat- proposed the resolution, was not at this nmoment in his ter of expediency, I should be in favor of taxing them. place. he hoped the vote would be re-considere'; al For, although the question of repudiation has never then, that the subject would be laid on the table, until yet boeen seriously thought of by the people of Ohio; that gehtleiman should comie in. In the mean time, he yet I tell these bond-holders, that, if they staniid back would prepare a substitute for the resolution to carry and refuise to sustairn any share in the butrdens of tax- out the object he had in view. ation, their example, more than all things else, will The vot, was accordingly re-considered: induce repudiation. And then, onl motion by Mr. REEMELIN, the res 3Mr. DORSEY. Before tihe vote is taken upon the olution was laid on the table. proposition of thle gentleman fromn Clark, I wish to INC AND TAXTION. make a silnlle remark in reference to the vote which I shall give. With regard to that gentleman's intima- On motion by Mr. MITCHELL, the Coinvention tioni, that certain (of us over here voted to embarrass again went into Committee of the Whole (Mr. LEADhis proposition, because we were disposedtoavoid the I BETTER in the Chair) and resumed the consideration of responsibilitv of voting directly against his proposlt- the third section of the report of the Conimnittee on tiori, I wish to say, that, so far as I am conerined I Finiance and Taxation-the question being upon the have desired to avoid no responsibility I should motion of the gentleman from Miami (Mr. Dons.Y) to have voted against the naked ameudmient oftb-ift gen- strike out and insert. A division of the question having tlernan. I did vote for the ameindment offered by the been demanded, gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) and that pro- Mr. ARCHBOLD had intended to move a further posed bythe g,utnleioman firom Coliumbiana (Mr. Gr.EGC,) amendment to this section, by proposing to strike out for the purpose of renideriing the amendmnent of the the words "United States and," but he was informed gentleman from Clark still more obnoxious; althouigh that lie was precludedl by the fact, that a motion t. was perfectly willini to reject the orig,inal amiend- strike out these words had already been made and lost,, 1ienit, for the followinig reasons: Is the faith of the although he believed but few members of the Conven — State more sadly violated by taxing these boands, than tion were aware of it. He did not intend tit this it is every day violated by the additional tax burt.hei,ns foolish crusade against the rights and powers of the which their exemption imposes upon the mass of the iGeneral Assembly should be prosecuted with his conpeople'? The preamble to our conituti on, d(elarei, sent; but, beinig precluded now, hlie should allow the tlhat that instrumnent was framed to establish jlustice section to remain in its present shapgivinig notice, within our borders. Whenever I may be called upon that, at some convenient time, when the subject,shall be to vote on any question involving this consideration, considered again iii Convention, he would make his senI trust I shall be found ready and willing to recordmy timents known in relation to it. Let none suppose, vote in favor of carrying out this principle. therefore, that, by passing the matter over now,.it was. Agxain: While I am as ready as the gentleman from abandoned by those who were opposed to it. In due Clark, to sustaiii the faith of this State, and unwilling time they would pay attention to it. to do any,thin(, which can ever violate that faith or Mr. HUMPHREVILLE said, before the q.uestioa. injure her reputation, I shall oppose his amendment upon striking out was taken, in order to render, te as wholly unnecessary. Why, sir',who talks about re- s ction more perfect lie had in amendnient, which he pudiation. who talks about not payino the debts of desired to offer. The terms of the section were not the State? or who talks aboutviolating the good faith broad enough to suit the views of several members of the State? Sir; I will never be one of those who with whom he had spoken. They extended only to are ready to label this great State with the broad in- State and United States bonds and internal improvescription "No repudiator," as if the world had a right' meant stocks; whereas, they ought to extend ~counto doubt her faith or her integrity. i ty, city and township bonds, and all other public. seca Sir, the State needs no such endorsement; and I say rities. He proposed, therefore5 to amend tti.. sectios'n, 9 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, DECE:MBER t7. 115 116 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TIJESDAY, DECEMBnER 17. of banks? What was the object of interest, from which they derived their profits? It was their loans and discounts, where you find not only their capital, but also their privilege of making issues. He wished to catch their capital, as well as the capital created by their issues; and whereven he could reach these two he was willing to stop. ,ri Mr. GREGG, (in his seat.) That was what he de sired. , Mr. REEMELIN did not so understand the gentle man's amendment. He was not willing to exempt their circulation on the plea of its being a debt-be cause it was a privilege conferred by governmento and because, in fact, it furnished to the banks the same as so much additional capital. The sum of the capital stock of all the banks of Ohio, was about seven millions of dollars, whilst their circulation was about sixteen millions. It was from their issues-the same as so much additional capital -that they derived much of their profits. This pri- vilege of issuing enabled them to realize a profit of , sixteen per cent; whereas, without this privilege, they , would not realize a profit of more than seven or eight per cent. By taxing upon their loans and discounts, we would ' reach the capital furnished by the stockholders, and the issues; whereas, if you tax the circulation besides, you would tax them to the amount of about twenty three millions, which would be unjust. What he desired to propose was, that the Legisla ture be directed to provideby law for taxing the loans and discounts of banks, with no deductions, except upon such deposits as those upon which they pay over five per cenit interest. Mr. STANTON's amendment was now rejected, and the questioni recurred upon the adoption of Mr. GREGG'S amendment. And a division of the question having been de inanded, the committee refused to strike out. So the amendment was lost; and the question re curred upon the adoption of the fourth section. Mr. ARCHBOLD proposed to amend the section, by inserting after the word "stocks," at the end of ithe second line, the words, "at their true value in money." The CHAIRMAN having stated the question, Mr. A. said he was not sure that hlie very well un derstood this section; nor was hlie sure that it would be good policy to put a great part of it inito the ConI stitutioll. He did not intend now to touch upon the question - of banks; lie intended that his remarks should relate - merely to the section. i Here were proposed numerous objects of taxation; banik capital and bank issues, railroad stock,turnpike - stock, and canal stock-all to be taxed as personal property was taxed. It seemed to him that the policy , of thliese specifications was exceedingly doubtful. Aa i enuinieration of some things is understood to exclude i others. There may be othier species of property out of the reach of the Assembly to tax. Again, suppose A. B. has $500 of turnpike stock, yielding halt of one per cent., or nothing-suppose it nwas of io value; was it the intentioii of the committee to tax him for such stock, the sanie as though he had , $500 invested in land, or bond and mortgage, which whbrought him a valuable return? It did seeni to him t that this report would bear too hard upon those who - might choose to make good roads and lines of Com4 mercial intercommunication. It seemed to him that m the exertions of such men ought to be regarded with a r more favorable eve. Why bear down upon such mei for the purpose of paying the State debt, which was r created for objects entirely local, and not productive bv inserting, after the word "bonds," thesewords, "an other public securities." He m ade hno spe pvch up on the subject, and hop ed the question would be taken wi thout agen extoerded discussion. ad This amendmend men t was agreed to, and the questiock recurred upon the substitute of the fge. tletan from Miami,-tthe first question being uponi striking out. The Committee refused to strike out-affirmative 32, negative 44. So the substitute was rejected, and the secti on was passed over. The CHAIRMAN now announced the consideration of n efo o the 5th section of the report,which was read, as follows: SEC. 4. The legislature shall provide for taxing bank capital, and the issues: of batlks, railroad stock, turnpike company s tock, and capal company stock, the same as personal pr oper t y ts taxed." Mr. GREGG proposed to amend the section by striking out from the first and second lines the words -,The Legislature shall provide for taxing bank capital, a d the issueg of banks," and insert in lieu thereof the following: "The legislature shall provide for taxing the loans and discounts, or capital of barnk,s ill whatever form invested, as well as issues of banks." Mr. STANTON proposed to amend the amendment, by inserting after the word "discounts," the words "and circulalion." Mr. REEMELIN said these amendments were coming up rather more speedily than he could desire. He was himself trying to write ail amendment. lie certainly could Jot vote for the amendment? of the gentleman from Columbiana, (Mr. GRE:GG,) because hle regarded it as unjust. He would not be unjust, even to banks. (A laugh ) If he understood the reading, the gentleman from Columbiana intended to tax the loans and discounts, and then the capital, and then the issues of banks It seemed te him, that this would be taxing their stock about three times, which would be rather too bad. He might be wil;lng to tax them twice, which would certainly be going far enough. Mr. GREGG explained. The loans and discounts in the amendment were separated from the capital. BuLt in these cases where banks might undertake to cover up their discounts, or their capital, by means of bills of exchange, or by any other means, it was simply tihe object of the amendment to reach it, whether found in one form or the other. It was not intended to tax the capital and the discounts. Mr. REEMELIN resumed. He had been endeavoring for several years to reach banks properly in referoilce to taxation; not only by expressing his views in speeches, but in the way of legislative reports. His plan was to tax loans and discounts, making no deduction either for circulation or deposits, excepting as in the case of the Ohio Life and Trust Company here in Cincinnati, which always allowed more tlha five per cent. on deposits. The difficulty with him was, how the section should be worded. If our tax laws were to be chanced-if we should adopt the principle of taxing wealth, instead of taxing visible property, as at present, then it would require a change n the phraseology of the constitutional provision. We only taxed the visible property of the merchant, whereas the law ought to reach the cap~ital. ]But the law specifies-ill the 59th section, he believed —that the average amount of goods on hand should be taxed —a valuation table made by the merchant once a month, to ascertain that,average. It was in order to reach the commission merchants that this rule was adopted by Mr. Kelley. N~ow, he woud ask, whatwas the visble propert OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, DECEMBER 17. of any advantages to the counties, where these roads ing at the only real elements of wealth and greatness were tnow most needed-a debt which ought never to — the industry and frugality of the people; our genial have been created? climate, our natural rivers; our extensive plains; our But now, we were forming a Constitution, whose fertile hills, and beautiful valleys. provisions were not alterable at the willof the people, But he had watered from the question. He would with the same facility that an act of legislation might again warn the Co0mmittee that there was danger ii, be changed. Gentlemren should consider this. It was going into these minute details -taxing railroad, for this reason that he deprecated any disposition turnpike and canal stocks. What was to be don: here, to enter so very minutely into these matters. with the stocks invested in bridges, aqueducts, tun He had proposed his amendment merely for the pur- nels, telegraphs, and other improvements of variou pose of eliciting the views of gentlemtnen. kinds? He did not understand that there was anv It seemed to him that the former portion of the sec- difference to be made between productive and unpro tioir, was of expressly doubtful expediency. It iun- ductive stocks. He supposed there was to be none posed a burden upon those ill able to bear it, for the Such was the prima facie meaning of the section; and piurpose of payinlg off the State debt. The burden of if itwas the true meaning, then his amendmentwoul(1 tihe paynmeut of this debt was thrown upon 86 coun- come in and provide for the taxation of all stocks, ties, whilst all the benefits of the improvements for according to their value. Was not this just? He, which it was created, were conferred upon some 35 to could not but look upon the section as immature; 40 counties. He doubted, indeed, whether more than and he would again call upon the Committee to pause twenty-five counties had received real benefit from and consider it well. these improvemrents. The other districts of the State He would go as far as any man to pay off the pub had all been treated colonially in this thing. Tie debt lie debt. He only objected to the argument, that our had not been created with reference to their interest public improvements, for which the debt had been at all; but with reference to the interests of the domn- created, had increased the wealth of the State. This inant sections of the State, to construct improvements could not be, for the wealth of the State was increas for certain favored districts; now, if tihe citizens of ing, whilst the improvements were going down. He the neglected counties of Brown, or Ashtabula, or had no fear but our taxable property would be suffi Clermont,or Columbiana, or Jefferson-he only named cient to pay off the debt. The present amount of themt exempli.ratia, as the lawyers would say-for property upon the tax list was some two or three the sake of the example-if they proposed to make a hundred millions, and in ten years that sum would little turnpike road for themselves, it was a hard prop- be doubled. Where, then. was the necessity for putositiert to tax their stock in such a work. And this ting this provision into the Constitution? stock rihtit be altogether unproductive. He was not M aware that s- important a subject was coming up for the Committee made twould here rpoemarkts, t upon that se-although consideration at this time, and the thoughts which he tion there was n o disagre ement. uon to niow threw out, must be taken as his first thoughts tion there was 110 disagreement. The motion now upon the subjectw otmstaeshsfrthgtwas to attach a "cash value" to articles ennumerated. upon the subject. That was what the Committee had in view. It wvas ite called upon gentlemen to pause, before they pro- to have railroad stock, turnpike stock, canal stock, ceeded any further with this proposition to inflict in- taxed as personal property? and how was that to be tolerable Iurthens on tihe unimproved sectionis,for the done? Why, by sending the assessor round, who purpose of paying off the public debt which is rapid- would put an estimate of its "cash value" down, and ly diminishinig, and especially, since the objects for on which it would be taxed accordingly. He did not which that debt was contracted were, to the very last claim for that Committee the wisdom, patriotism, degree, worthless. He had heard gentlemenackilowl- and all the other high and noble virtues which genedginig, and even boasting, that our system of inter- tiemen have alluded to, They did not claim perfec nal improvements had increased the wealth of the tioir, but they wished to present something for the State. He affirime(l, oil the contrary, that the syste m consideration of the Convention, which might, as it had effected nothing, but to throw a heavy burden of had done, bring the best mninds in the assembly to taxation upon the people, arndhe held himself ready to bear upon it. That great good would result from its lay this propoition demonstrably before the mind of having gone abroad to the people, lie had no doubt. every man within these walls. It was a system whichl The section was very plain, and hlie could not see had been inflicted on the State without aliy resulting how the gentleman from Miami (Mr. BARBEE,) could benefits; but leavin~ us depressedin our energies by a have misunderstood it. He would name a case in burdensomn debt, and degraded by lowering the stan- point. There Was the Little Miami Railroad, where dard of moralitv of the State. the investmnents yielded a veiy large per centage, If the State government could have been kept to its while a certain turnpike road in the county of Hamappropriate sphere of oiperations-the protection of ilton yielded a very small per centage, (if any.) our persons and property capitalists would, long Well, now, when the assessor went to tax the stocks ago, have made all these commercial improvemenrts, inr the Little Miami Railroad, he was to tax it accordupon those approved principles of economy which ing to its "cash value," and the same principle would were generally developed in the etnterprizes of sharp- apply to the turnpike road alluded to. Justice would sighted individuals; and so the State would have been then be done to each. The Committee take the very elieved of the consequences of a number of most same view as the gentleman who has moved the windy and worthlesss peculations. And, after all amendment. With that explanation, and after the this immense expenditureof money by the State, in- elaborate argument of the gentleman from Monroe dividual capital was going to do what it would have (Mr. ARCaBOLan,) with which he was perfectly satisdone at first-it was going to send "the iron horse" fled, he should submit the question to the Convenall along the lines of our canals; anid this, commercial vention. men would have done ten or fifteen years sooner, if Mr. ARCHBOLD had the highest feeling of respect these canals had never been constructed. for every gentlemau in that Committee, and as the Geirtlenren were too ready to admit that the wealth gentleman who had last spoken, had explained the secof this great State had been advanced by the govern- tion, it was consistent with his views of the subarent turning pedlar, going into a splendid specula. lject. tion, adopting a huckstering policy, instead of look. With the amendment, which was now proposed, the 11" 5Cflj)ilU~Ul k1?LUU- A1U UIU UO L iLL|aOf UJ ICA Li)g- i ~ i' - Litlt ~ s a J s,i~tt.A t.~; every species of property in the State, and at the sanleI tion, that wo-tlil a'li do bt that nder,iy ir — time, he would not tax ally man, for a doloar wlic he:t it g,()( fith (E:t tile SIt,4 ( (-)f l ul.. miglht owe. But he would tax all corporate pro,,zty, be violiat ed l ile lie itnciin-ed tov,': wtlith tie g(such as Railroads, Bankl Stock', Telegraph Comnpanies, tiei i'a1ii Cl Lrk o.ftl-e t, rea-ons ut i-.rlerd,l was Turnpike Roads and such like..till ni twillilig to vote for such a ])roIci,~ bit'ioil. 1.n or — The amelndment (Mr. MANON's) was agreed to. der, then, to putanend to'ihI,t he conside,red aprofi't — Mr. HUMIPIIREVILLE nmoved to i-sert alter tIle less tlis4t: si t)I, h' theCrI,;"ee rise, aiid the re)()port words last inserted,thie followii)g,"anid all incorporated stand re-ommiitted nd let thiela iIser t )prop,.siiorn companies." enbraciing the views of every ge.tlemian preselit, ad Mr. LIO)UDON lhoped thlit the amendmet)ent wouid nt leave the Wimle subject to the isereti )ll of the Legisinterfere with church property, as he understood tha. lature. Ile had no fears of t,)e L(gis'l ttt,hiclt there was a great ral~y religious socielies iiicorporaeled,,was or ssi,,>ild be, atrue reflectioon,of thie popolar will, who had sniall properlies in coinnection with their! and if it failetd to bein coif(ormiity wvith that will, thle church, and hlie would not wiih to medole with sui. h people lhad thlle p(oter iii thleir own.hanfs. le had Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. My arnmelndoeit lias (albhough gentlemen w,uld perhaps say, that his po reference only to companies incorporated witlh a view litical relati,,s did not atlihlizi 1im t1 > t hake such a to make money. y 1ec1aration,) yet le w,uld assert it, e 1-h lid perfe,ct Mlr. GRE".EN (of Ross) moved "t1-iat the comnmittee ith in the pet ople, axtd Oltlll lbhne ilght, not t) per rise and report." lie made thiat iiiotioii with a v ew iittrd to lov th s tedry a tthe tenth Ort,is that the Report should be re-comnmitted, with iiistrue- y et lie ha1d as xIchl fa4thl in them as atiy ian. oil tlhat. tiois to tle ComniIittee, to insert a section, giving peow fi|)r ( eir ea lee, the.'tioi itltlie1n, a.ld t,l..y er to the Ltgislature, to tax all propetrty, as tley coil-! Tould do all they desired should be delbe, aid tlhey sidered right adn i)roper-cOnsisteot with the preserva- (the Conveiition) shou1ld ant attenipt ao' -.ityre. Llc tion o!)(p —oitheij public taith.rse tiolli (of the public fuiitli.'id reall-v thiok thatt fter the time whicli had )been 2i. MA()N. Doiit ttlk of public fiaitlh. spent ill thle dictusston (of thle proposititon, which h ad 'Mr. GRELISN (of Ro,ss) was retiiided iiot to seak o little to do with tle bsi ne ss betl;rethelm, and after of public Ii'ahd-ald Ii wvould alterd to tihe waning10. the iuterlchange of opiniouns on that vexd questi.oi, Thev had suffioien' of thlis disc'ssion for tleir ow0n1 auid when it was manifest that all -were agreted lit( respeciabilily. He d(ulted thie proyi-iety of the iro)- tle main poinIt, h thought furthler time shoul'd not be osition of thegenllemana froin C~lark,anud was willit,g expe,ded in dicissiol. lhe hoped fi>r their owni to vote for a generatl proposition, whiich wo ild give salkes, ad for the sake of the respect,ability of thei.r the governniteut piower to iiike a tax, on ai)y spei s body, inl view of the high and iniportaut interests of property which they nigil)t thinlk prope* He was comiilitted to tlieiin view of wbat the people expected utiwillitg to bring anylhiltig into the Coitstitutioi fromi tlem, in view of the regard and respect which whic(h should imipose upon the Legislature, tile dcity of tley shou.ld hold for theminselves. collectively aid intaxing any iartlicultir descri,ption of property. Th dii iduall-v, lhat an eind shioiuld now be put to this disdiscussion lIad occup,led that Comnittee now for foiur cus1sio. Ii the Le:,slaturet should iodertake to brirg or five days-profitable or otherwise, le would not say, the goovernmeniit ilito) conflict with that of the United but tliey al! concurred, inl the pro)riety of conferilig States, that'ais their affar. But he did hope that on the Legislatuie, the power of imposilig a tax, Oil the ConveltionI would not asisumne a power whiich he every species of property in the State. Tlere wei, conidered as belonging to thlie highest tribunal of the some descriptions of property, wlhichl from g,.ood] faith, United States, and further, that it would not attenipt should be exetipt, but, let the whole subject rest to incorporate such a provision, which, in the judgwit.h thile Legislature. ment of several aeiibers of this body,bad a nanifest Mr. MASON said that that would be givil)g them, tendency to imrnpair the good faith and credit of the too large pow ers. State Mr. GREEN, of Ross, said that was at all times a' r. REEMELIN wished to say a few words why powerfut arguient with him, as well as with thegen the Coinmintte should not rise. It was gratifying to C —' eachi bl'anch of the General Assembly of Ohio, from the year 1825, up to the session of 1849-.50 irclus:}ve-so far as the preceding books can be spared from the State Library: and, that the resolution heretofore passed upon thba subject be aid it is hereby repealed." THE JUDICFIARY. On motion by Mr. RANNEY, the Convention now again went into Committee of the Whole-Mr. HUN?TER in the Chair —and resumed the consideration of the report of the Judiciary Committee. The question being upon the adoption of kNfr. RANNE"'s substitute. Mr. RANNEY would briefly ex-plain what he understood by the section as it now stands. and the provision which he had proposed to insert in leu of its The section reported by the Conmmnittee, was in this language: "The Clerks of the Courts shall be elected by the electors, in suich manner and for such term as shall be fixed by law." Now, there was provided for sitting, in each county, a Couinty Court, an d a C ourt of CoCnmo. n Pleasnt Tha t would'involve the election of two Clerks in each county. There was then provided a District Court, which was to be ambulatory in its char,cter-sometimes sitting here, and sometimes there, as convenience might dictate. That would involve the election of a kind of Cirecit riding Clerk. And then, there was a Supreme Court to sit in different places, and this would make a necessity for another Circuit rIiding Clerk. He thought this was complicating the thing rather too nmuch. It was parceling out the clerical duties of the Judiciary into so many hands, that he was fearful it would be providing for a more "hungry swarm-" than what were upon us before. The substitute which he had offered, provided a general rule for the election of a County Clerk for I AFTERNOON SF.%TON. 1OH110 CONVENI'ION DEBTAES-THURsD,,Y, DECFMBER 19. each county; and, unless the Legislature interfere, but one would be elected, who should be the Clerk of all the Courts held in his county. But, if the business. of any county, such as the county of Hamilton, should require more than one Clerk, he had introduced a proviso, permitting the Legislature to authorize the election of two or three more-a Clerk for each of the Courts which might be held therein requiring specific duties of each. Again: in the original section, the tenure of the Clerks was left entirely open. It was proposed there to leave the tenure of this first officer of the coiunty entirely open, to be regulated by the Legislature. But he had a very decided opinion upon this subject himself, and he supposed the people had. He thought this officer should hold only for a reasonable term, and that that would be about three years; therefore he had provided that the tenure should be three years. Now, if the Committee agreed with him. he hoped they would take his substitute. There was great difficulty in divding up the Clerkship of the several Courts. especially between the Court of Common Pleas, and the Supreme Court. The office of Clerk of the Supreme Court, not being worth much, but requiring equal qualifications-the consequence was, that we have to spoil one good mian in each county for this place; though he believed it was true, in some instances, that the judges had been careful to keep these clerkships together'in the hands of one man. He did riot exactly understand the views of the gentleman from Hamilton, with reference to the election of a Clerk whose duties were not to be connected with the judiciary. It was true, that we elected for this purpose an officer in every county; but hlie was the County Recorder. There was no other business, un connected with the Judiciary, which would require a Clerk in each county. His idea was, thatthere should be no partitioning of the clerkships of the country Courts of thle State. For, if vou split them up, and put them into different hands, every man must get his liv ing by his office; and if he can't get it legitimately, he will get it illegitimately. In the cities it would prob ably be requisite to have a separate individual for the Clerk of each Court; and if so, the Legislature would always be ready to increase the number according to the number of the Courts. Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, was opposed to altering the section. But, if a change were to be made, he would prefer the former to the latter amendment. He was decidedly opposed to the second amendment. The gentleman from Trumbull, however, had most admirably pointed iout the evils of too large an ac cumulation of offices. He considered it better, in stead of creating a new office, to combine the duties of two offices in one. He would prefer the smallest number of officers, and hlie would have their duties de fined as specifically as possible. He thought it wrong, at this time, and in this man ier, to create any new county offices. He would rath er the subject might be allowed to come up in the report of another Commnittee; and rather than create another officer to discharge the ministerial duties of the clerks of the courts, hlie would blend those minis terial duties with the office of Recorder, or some other office. Mr. McCORMICaK affirmed that the section already provided for all that the gentleutah from Trumbull asked. That gentleman wished fo)r a single Count.y Clerk in each of the counties; alga who did not know that more were not necessary? That gentleman wranted more, where the business of the Courts demanded more. The section provided for such cases. But the iection did not, as the gentleman imagined, fritter away the se officest, requiring a distinct ind ividual to be the Clerk of every Court, and compelling him to live by his of fice, honestly or dish onestly. The section did not provide that each Court should have a separat e Clerk; but left it to the Legislature; so that they might appoint the same individual to hold the office o f Cle rk of every Court sitting inl his county, or p r o v i d e d f o r ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~a l t h a t h e gC n l e n a fr o m T u b k a t z ii t he w o l h e p t n a e i ov e r y a a n u appoin t more than one Clerk i on etery county, as the necessity of the case might demand. This was what the section meant nou ew; and the amegdmntt o f the gentleman from Trumbull provided for nrothin_,, more itor less than what was admissible by the s ection, as it now stood, exceptin g the reduction of the term to three years, and changing the name of the office, The amendment did not propose a radical change in the section as reported, excepting so far as it replaced a question before the Committee, which has already been voted down by them-that vote was equivalent to saying, there shall be. no termn fixed for which these officers shall be elected. It did not improve the phraseology of the section; aind the section even pro vided for imlore than the amiiendrmient-by allowing the Legislature to act as the necessity of the case might demand. Mr. RANNEY considered that the gentleman from Adams (Mr. McCo-amIC) had put a very sin,ular in terpretation upon the section. The section provided that "the Clerks of the Courts should be elected by the electors." But who are the electors? You woul'd elect your County Court Clerk by the electors residing within the jurisdiction of said Court. But how would you get your District Clerk? By electing him, certainly; for there were no other means of ap pointmenut proposed in the section. Blt who were the electors? The voters of the district. Then how were you to get a Clerk for the Supreme Court, which, it was contemplated, would sit in but very few counties? Mr. KENNON (in his seat). How did you find that ouLt? Mr. RANNEY (lauighintsly). By what you told me. I ask the gentleman from Belmont, if he con templates that the Supreme Court is to sit in everr county? Mr. KENNON (in ])is seat). I think they will. Mr. RANNEY. I think so too; but not,under your systenm. The Chief Justice was to be elected by the State at large. He was the Grand Mogul of the sys tem. The Associate Justices were to be elected by districts; and if any more were hereafter created, they were to be elected bv the people at large. [Mr. R. here read the provision of the Judiciar Committee's Report in regard to the Supreme Court:] Here it was provided that one term should be held in each year at the seat of governinent. Mr. KENNON (interposing). The only difference between us was in the different use of terms. We had been in the habit of sitting with four Judges at the seat of government, anide calling that the Court is Bank; and he had been ill the habit of considering that the Supreme Court which was held by a singl Judge in every county. Mr. RANNEY. The gentleman from Belmont was considering the Supreme Court to be one thing;whilst in his Report he was calling it another thing. Mr. KENNON (ill his seat). It ought not to be called the Supreme Coulrt. Mr. RANNEY. Whenl the timle should come to re baptize it,, he would help to name it over again. But how are yo)u to havre a Clerk for this Court? The Legislature could not; appoint hlim. He lmust "elected by the electors." There was nlo othler way; and, inasmullch as the jurisdict~ionl of thlis Coulrt was co-extensive with the State, he could not set? howyou could get this Clerk without a State election 137 138 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, DECEMBER 19. Now you have got in the report of the Committee a Under this section, it was in the power of the Legis distinct court, called a district court, composed of latuire to provide for the appointment of Clerks of three Common Pleas Judges and one Supreme Judge, ally of the Courts, for the election of a Clerk in every and the clerk of this court must (he supposed) beelec- county, aid there devolves upon himn all the duties ted by the ninth part of the voters of the State. which gentlemen desire. He considered that this thing of adopting a section He did not know whether it was the desire of any of such obscure and doubtful meaning, was even gentleman to create an officer of the county, entirely worse than legislating in the Constitutional Conven- distinct from the court, charged merely with ministe tion. He did not think the section was fairly open, rial duties-such as the issuing of marriage license. to the interpretation which the genitleman ifrom Adams Mr. BROWN of Athens (in his seat.) That was had placed upon it. But, if that gentlenman had real- not my meaning. ly given the true sense and meaning of the section, Mr. MASON. He did not know whether that was he would still strike out the whole matter, and put in the intention or not. But there could probably be ad its place something that could be understood-sonue- duced some weighty considerations in opposition to thing that would say there shall be one clerk in each creating such an office. county, except in cases where it may be expedient for He hoped it would be satisfactory to the committee the Legislature to provide for more. For, if the sec- to adopt this provision of the report just as it is; for, tion was susceptible of the intepretation which the upon the whole, he thought it would be found better gentleman from Adams had placed upon it, it was too calculated to work out the ends of justice and econIo obscurely worded tobe understood. my, than any other that had been suggested. The Mr. MASON said, the gentleman last upon the General Assembly would be competent, under this floor had complained of the obscurity of the pro- provision, to provide for the election of these officers, vision before the Commtttee. The provision was, in every county, and prescribe their duty and compen "The Clerks of the Courts shall be elected by the sation; aud if they should not hit upon thebestar electors, in such manner, and for such term,as shlall be ratgement at the first, they could come in at the next fixed bylaw." This language,the gentleman had told session, and make the amenduients which e,,perience us, was so obscurely worded, that he could not corn- might suggest. prehend it. And the gentleman inquired, how it was The gentleman from Trumbull, beitng hostile to the possible to obtain a Clerk of the Supreme Court sit- AppellateDistrict Court, could not but giveitakick ting in Bank, unless all the people of Ohio were to be as he passed along. That gentleman was preparing to called upon to elect him? He would say, inreply,thliat offer a projet as a substitute for the whole system re the Legislature might provide by law, that the clerk ported by the judiciary committee, and therefore he of the Court of Common Pleas of any county, in was bound to make it appear as odious as he could, in which there shall be held a term of the Court in Bank, the mean time. But really, there was not one of the should act as the Clerk of that Court. And the mo- gentleman's objections yet stated that had any validity nient they should make this declaration, this great in it at all. mystery of the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RAN- Mr. MORRIS said, he should vote against the amend xE,) would cease to be a mystery alyi longer. The ment. He thought the provision, as origillnally report provision here was a very comprehensive one, under ed, was better than any modification which had been which the Legislature might supply the Judiciary suggested; it recognized the pri)nciple of making all with all the clerical force which might be required for judicial officers elective by the people With referthe proper transaction of that sort of business. The ence to the character of the duties of these officers, only question that could be raised against it, was, that would have to depend upon the character of the whether the people would be able to select men to re- courts, which were yet to be organized. Hence,he present them in the Legislature, of sufficient intelli- thought all these considerations, in detail, were betgence to make a law providing for the election of the ter left to be arranged by th Legislature. Clerks of the Courts. It might be, that neither the Mr. RANNEY. Tie whole argurnent of thegen General Assembly nor the people would possess the tieman from Clark, (Mr. MASON,) turned upon this intelligence and ability to provide legally for theelec that, where there shall be elected a clerk of the Comtion of these officers; but he did not himself see any mon Pleas, the Legislature may make him the clerk difficulty in the way of their doing so. of the Supreme Court, cr of the District Court; and The gentleman had said that the section was very this, he says, is a fair compliance with the Constitubunglingly drawn; but he could not see in what re- tional provision, which requires that "the clerks of the spect; nor any grounds for the objection, unless it courts shall be elected by the electors." were, that the aid of the honorable gentlemen fromI Mr. MASON (in his seat.) Yes sir. Trumbull was not invoked in the matter. In verv Mr. RANNEY. Su)po,se then, that theLegislature .ppropriate language, it expressed the intention of should say that the Auditor ot Franklin county should leaving the whole matter to the Legislature. Perhaps serve as clerk of the Supreme Court of the State, sitit was not wisest to do so, but that was another niat- tin in that county ter. The proposition was not so very bunglingly Mr. MASON (interposing.) He could not do so ~~~~~M.MSNinerp s n. Hecold o o worded, but that it might be understood as referring under this constitution; and I reckon the member t'ie regulation of the election, the fixation of the terms knows that as well as I do; when there is a direct proof office, the compensation, and all other matters rela- vision that clerks of the courts shall be elected b the ting to the duties of these officers, to the General As? people. a~inbly. Mr. RANNEY. But not of the courts you would He preferred disposing of the subject in this way, make clerks for - for the reason, that there were peculiar difficulties here Mr. MASON. Exactly. "The clerks of the courts' in the way of going into legislative details; and, be- is the phrase sides, there was a most manifest inconsistency in ma- Mr. RANNEY. No, of some court; and then the king a code of laws upon every subject we touch,- Legislature can make him the clerk of another court; evincing a most extraordinary confidencein ourselves, and that is electing him! But I do not so understand and a most unjustifiable distrust of all the Legislative the section. It does not follow, that, because a man wisdom of the future. has been elected a clerk of one court by the people, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER 20. Mr. RANNEY. I said the gentleman took ground against the election of judges by the people. Mr. MASON. It was just as I have stated. The gentleman said I did not believe in the CAPACITY of the people to elect their judges. Mr. RANNEY. The gentleman runs ahead of th'e statement I made. I do not show all the reasons that may have governed him; but he certainly came to the conclusion I have stated. I ask pardon of the conmmnittee for this diversion, in which I should not have participated but for the sneering remark about the aid of the geutleiman from Trumbull, which must have been intended as acut at me. Mr. RANNEY then referred to the particularity of the rule prescribing the appointment of Clerks, and mere pro tempore Clerks, in the old Constitution, and added: but now, when we had proposed to fix the term for three years it was called legislation. Buthe oild not so conmsider it. Mr. KIRKWOOD said,with reference to the amendmNen t w%hich he had read, and intended to offer as a substitute for the section proposed by the gentleman from Triumbull, he had since that time examined the o r iginal substitute, and preferred it now to his own proposition, and should vote for inserting it in the report. But he should also move to amend it so as to make the clerks removable. Mr. VANCE, of Butler,proposed to amend the substitute of the gentleman from Trumbull, by striking out the word "county," where it occurs before the word "court." This amendment was rejected. Mr. MASON moved to strike out the word "three," where it occurred before the word "years," with a view of inserting the word "five;" which was not agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the amendmentof Mr. RA-.NEY; the Comnmittee divided, and stood affirmative 42, negative 43. So the amendment was disaf,greed to. Mr. REEMELIN moved, to insert at the the end of the sectio n, the following words: "Provided however, that such term shall not exceed three years;" which was disagreed to. Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to insert the following at the end of the section: M"Clerks of Courts shall be removable, for such causes as may be prescribed by law;" which was agreed to. On motion of Mr. RANNEY, the Committee rose, and the Chairman reported, that they had had under consideration report N-o. 1. of the standing Committee oin the Judicial department, and had instructed him to report the sarme back with sundry amendments. Mr. MITCHELL moved, that the report and pending amendments, be laid on the table, and that the re - port,'a as mended,be ordered to be printed. Mr. SAWYER demanded a division of the question, which, turning first on laying the report on the table, was agreed to. The question then being on ordering the report as amended to be printed, On motion by Mr. HORTON, the Convention adiourned. that the Legislature can make him the clerk of another court, by their act. But, if this is the intention, that the General Assembly may come in and make a clerk by a legislative provision, gentlemen ought to say so; and, if this provision is open to such an objection now, what may we not expect will be its interpretation hereafter? But the gentleman says, possibly any objections to this arrangement of the judicial system may be traced to the fact that the committee had not the help of the gentleman from Trumnbull. No sir; you did not have the help of the gentleman from Trumbull in any portion of that report; and I thank God that you did not. Mr. MASON. (in his seat.) And so do I. rA laugh.] r Mr. RANNEY. And so do I, [continued laughter;] and when you shall come t o saubmn i t your constitution to the people, (if you ge t your report in the constitut,ion,) you will then be able to determiney whether it is ral are in i itor t ally a recmndatio to have signed that report. No, sir- you had not the h elp of the gentleman f rom Trumbw iul. But you had the help of some distinguished gentlemen, s tanding high in professional life, who had a clear conception of every provision which would advance the interests of leading members of the professiorn, and who ha ve in this report looked much more to the interests theth e p rof es sio n th an to the interests of the m jasses of the people. Mr. MASON, (interrupting.) - I would like to ask the gentleman wh eth er he supposes it necessary for hi s signatu r e to be attached t o every proposition srhbpoitted here, in order to insure its success before the people? Mr. RANNEY. I do not regard it so. If you desire information upon that subject, you have it. But if I wanted to get the signature of any ge-tleman which would be sure to defeat a proposition before t he p eop lem, I do not know of any gentleman's name that I would select quicker than that of a gentleman I have now in iy eye. (Some laughter.] I came here as a representativ oe of the people, and I am r esponsi br ANY n tatm old e coforta- aedid otomberitd ble for mly acts here or elsewhere; and I did not come here after having written over the broadside of a newspaper to prove that the people a re incompetent to elect their ow n judges, and then come here and s ign a report making the judges elective. Mr. MASON, (interrupting.) Does the gentleman sayr that I wrote such a communication? Mr. RANNEY. I do most distin ctly r ecollect seeing the gentleman' s tgam ie s igned t o such a paper, declaring it a most pernicious doctrine to affirm that the p eople sho uplcl elec t their own judges. M r. ScASON. Wh at was th e r eason assigned for that pos ition? Mr. RANNEY. It is enough for me to state the fact. Mr. MASON, [with emphasis.] What was the precase and only reason? Mr. RANNEY. There was no reason in it. Mr. MASON. The gentleman, then, entirely misrepresents me. I hope he does not do it wilfully. Mr. RANNEY. One at a time would be comfortable. [Yielding.] Mr. MASON. I supposed, Mr. Chairman, that it was fight, and even pm'liamenltary, that I should inquire what, in flhat communication, was the reason rendered why I was not in favor of a popular election of judges. There was a reason assigned and urlged, and the gentleman refuses to give it. It was to se+, myself right in regard to the gentleman's statement, that I didl not believe in the capacity of the people to elect their judges. Such all idea was- not in the communication. 139 SIXTY-EIGHTH ]DAY. FNIDAY, December 20, 1850. 9 o'clock, A. M. The Convention nict piirsuant to adjournment, Praver bv the Rev. Mr. Jewell. Mr'SWfFT prsented a petition fr m Jonathan OHLIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIlDAY, DECEMBER 20. Myers and fifty six others, citizenis of Summit coun- Said petitions were severally referred to the select ty, Ohio, praying that a clause be engrafted in the committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. new ConstitltioiO, prohibiting the Legislature from Mr. HUNTER moved to take up the motion laid on passing any law, legealizing the traffic ill spirituous tlhe tableby the adjolriirnmeiit of yesterday,relativeto qnors. printing the report of the Judicial Department, with Referred to the select Committee on the subject of the amendments made to that report i the Committee retailing ard,,nt spirits. of the Whole, which was agreed to. Mr. WILSON presented a petition from John Gra- The question then being on ordering the report, ble and uinety-seven others, citizens of Wayne coun- with the said amendments, to be printed, the same tv, praying that the new Constitution prohibit the was agreed to. exclusive right of lawyers to practise inii Courts of Mr. HARD moved that the Convention take up justice, and also praying that the jurisdiction of jus- the petition, presented by him, of Martin Pray and tices of the peace be extended to one thousand dol- others, on the second day of the session in this city, lars. which was agreed to; and on motion of the same On motion of the same gentlemian, that part of the $ gentleman, the petition was referred to the Standing petition relative to the jurisdiction of justices of the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. peace, was referred to the Standing Committee on the Mr. THOMPSON )f Shelby, moved to take up the udiciary Department, and that part relating to the resolution of the gentlemian from Logan (Mr. STANrights of lawyers, to t,he Standing Committee on Ju- TON,) offered yesterday, relative to the adjournment of risprudence. the Convention during the holidays; which was agreed Mr. LARSH presented a petition from Lewis Gei to. ger and eighteen others, citizens of Preble county, The question pending being on filling the first traying that a clause may be inserted in the new blank in said resolution with the words'Tuesday Constitution prhibitirng the Legislature from passing the 24th," the same wa ( agreed to. any law legatizini-i the traffic in spiritots liquors. The question then being on filling the second blank Mr. STILWEILL presented a petition from Isaac in the resolution, providing for the period to which Kille and two hunildecd and fifty-two other citizens of' the adjournment slould extend: Muskingumtr county, on the same subject. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE proposed Thursday, the Mr. CHAllIBERS presented a petition from Joseph i 26th. W. Marshiall and five hundred ad seveinty-nine o th- Mr. NASH proposed Monday, the 30th. ers, citizens of Muskingum county, on the same sub- The question being first upon filling the blank with ject. the words "Monday the 30tll," the same was disagreed Mr. CHANEY presented a petition from John to. Spangler a,id twenity-one others, citizens of Fairfield Mr. STANTON sutgggested Friday the 27th. county, on the same subject. Mr. BROWN of Carroll suggested Wednesday, the The saiiie gentleman presented a petition from 25th. James Peckering and forty-eight others, citizens of The question being then on filling the blank with Fairfield c(urity, n the same subject. the words "Friday, the 27th," the same was disagreed Said petitions were severally referred to the Select to. Committee onl the sub'ject of retailing ardent spirits. The question theii being upon filling said blank Mr. HARD presented a petition from William J. with the words Thursday, the 26th, the same was Merrett and forty-eight others, citizens of Jackson agreed to. county, Ohio, praving that a clause be engrafted in the The question then being on agreeing to the resolunew Constitution prohibiting the emigration of black tion as perfected: or mulatto persoIIs ito this State. Said petition was, Mr. BROWN of Cairoll moved to lay the resolution at the request of Mr. HARD, read at the desk, as fol- on the table, which was disagreed to. lows: The question then being on the adoption of the 'To the Constitutional Convention of the'State of Ohio reolution, "We the unl ersigned, citizens of Milton township, Jack- Mr. WORTHINGTON demanded the veas and son cenuty, anil Stateof Ohio, do solicit your honorable body nays which being ordered, resulted, yeas45, nays 46, to prohibit, in th e few Con stitution, the emigration of any as follows: negro or mulatto person into the State of Ohio." YE- Archold Baree Bnet of Mot YEA,S —5Iessrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnset of Mont Said petition was then referred to the Standing gomery, Bates, Blair. Blictkensderfer, Case of Licking, ChaCommittee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. ney, (:ollings, Cook, Dorsey, Far, Fl'oreice, Gillett, Gray, The same gentleinan presented a petition from C. Green of Defiance, Green of Rloss, Gr(cesbeck, Haid, Holt. Hootmann, Humphreville, -luntier..Jo-es,Kenion, Kirkwood, Yager and forty-fo,,(ir others, citizens of Vinton count- Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, Moriis, Mc('ormi(ck, Nashl, Patty, Ohio, on the same subject. terson, Reemelin, Sawyer, Sellers, Stanton, Stilwell, Stid Said petition was referred to the Standing Commit- ger. Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Townshetcid, Vance of But. tee on tlhe Prea-iimble and Bill of Rights. ler, Vance of Chamnipaign, Wilson and Worthington-45. NAYs-Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Brown of Mr. LARSH presented a petitionr from James E. Athens, Brown of C arroll, Caill, Case of Hocking, Cham. Whinney, Levi Purviance and eleven others, citizens bers, Clark, Curry, Ewart, Ewing, Porbes, Graham, Green of Preble county, praving that a clause may be in- of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hender-on, srted il the ew Cn-tittion prohibiting tHunt, Johnson, King, Larsht, Lawrence, Leech, Lidey, Manon, serted in the new C,ln elititution pMorehead, MeClout, Norribi Peck. Qigle, Ranney, ot > * s.... M~~~~~Aorehead, Mc~loucl, Norris, Peck. Quigley, Ranney, Scott ature from passing any.awr legalizing the traffic in of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smmith spiritous liquors. of Warren, Snith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Struble, Swift The same gentlemnan presented a petition from An- Thompson of Shelby, Warren,William s,}oodbury and Presdrew Adams, and eleven other citizens of Preble ident-46. county, on the same subject. So the resolutioni was disagreed to The same gentleman presented a petition from J. TrHE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. G. McMaInus and nline others, citizens of Preble countty Monthe sarid nusbeothers, citizens ofPreblecoun- Mr. SAWYER said he was disposed to insist now, ty, on thie ~same:-ibject. Mr. FARR proeented a petition from Clark Barnes, that the Conveution tale up the reports of Standing and sixty-eight others, citizens of Huron county, on Committees, so far as they have passed through the the sanie subject., Committee of the Who!e, and proceed to act finally upon them. As the matter now stands, all the reports 140 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DE.CEMBER 20. that have been made, have been gone through with by Banking and Currency. He had no doubt the Rethe Committee. There were four or five of the Stand- port of the gentleman's Committee, being so long ing and Select Committees of the Convention who had delayed, would be so fully matured, that not an i not yet reported, among which are the Committee on would be dotted, or a t be crossed, by the Committee the Preamble and Bill of Rights-an important cornm- of the Whole, or the Convenrtion. mrittee; the Committee on Miscellaneous Subjects-a The question being on takingi up the Report of the very important committee; the Committee on Temper- Committee on the Legislative Department, the same ance, also, to which so many thousands of petitioners was agreed to. have been sending in their prayers, is silent. He did Mr. TAYLOR moved that the Report and amendnot understand the reason for this delay, and was afraid ments be recommitted to the Standilig Committee, that the effect would be, that inmportant and perplexing from which it originated. questions would be sprung upon the Convention at a Mr. CHAMBERS hoped the motion would not prelate period in its session, and when members would not vail. It had been unanimnously made, and as one be prepard to meet them.'rbhe heads ofthese commit member of the Committee, he aid not desire to retees are members of theDemocratic party,and, in some view it. It is now before the Convention-the a deglree responsible for the action of Iheir several co,n- mendments are printed, and we can act upon it as mittees; bh,t we must not delay our business because well as if it again passed through the Coimmittee. these gentli,men do not see fit to perform their duties. Mr. TAYLOR said he understood that the unanHe made these remarks for the purpose of urging gen- i imity was scarcely more than a fornmal concurrence tiernen to proceed with their work. He would ask t,he of the members of the Committee in the Report. He President if there was any report now referred to the would prefer to take up first the Report of the Corn. Committee of the Whole, that had no,t been gone mittee on the Executive Department. over Mr. SAWYER would like to know what the gen The PRFSIDENT said there was not. tleman wanted the Coimmittee to do with the Report. Mr SAWYER. Then I mnove that the Convention If the Convention had any instructions to give, they take up the Report of the Comnittee on the Legisla might desire its recommnitment for that purpose. tive Department, and proceed to consider it. Mr. REEMELIN. The subject of annual or bien Mr. VAN CE, of Butler, wished to say a word in re. niaI sessions. If the Convention will instruct upon ply to the gentlenan from Auglaize (Mr. SAWYEn) that point, I will agree to vote to recommit. le was a member of a Select Committee which came The question on the motion to recommit was then under the terms of that gentleman's complaint, as it taken, and resulted, on division, ayes 32, noes 45. had not yet made a report. He would state the reason So the motion was lost. for the apparent delinquency. One of the memibers The several amendments made in Committee of of that committee, who took a very deep interest in the Whole, to the Report on the Legislative Departthe subjectcommitted to it, had been absent since the meit, were then read and tlc Conveention proceeded Convention reassembled, and that gentleman, he knew to the consideration of the samne, in order. was very anxious to be heard, in committee, upon one The question being on agreein g to the first amend or two questi,ns, in regard to which there was a dif- ment, to-wit: Strike out all after the word "Repre ference of opinion. All the members were anxious sentatives," in section 1, line 2, to the end of the sec to mature and complete a perfect and unanimous re tion, the same was agreed to; and the section, as a port, and one that if possible should harmonize their ended, is as follows: own view,s and meet those of the convention; and for.SEc. 1. The legislative power of this State, shall be vested that reason it could not have been made at an earlier in a General Assiembly, which shall consist of a Senate and day, although it had been for moith]s drawn up, aud House of Representatives. completed in its principal features. He could say al- The question then being on agreeing to the second so, that he did not believe that expedition would be amendruent, to-wit: gained by too hasty action in conmmittee. and might SEc 2. Strike out the wo ds "by tie electors in each reply tohe gentleman from Auglaize, that if his coni- county," mittee had kept back the report upon the Legislative Mr. REEMELIN said be hoped the words would Department a few weeks, and more fully considered not be stricken out. There world then be no pro itsprovisions, many thousands of dollars would have ision in the Report for the election of Rpresenta e-vision in the Report for the election of Represenita been saved to the State, and much timethat was spent tives by th people. in discussing amen(lments to it, would have been The amendment was then agreed to. saved. He did not think the Convention to be losing Mr. EEMELIN then move to re sider the vote time,on account of the failure of committees to report. taken upon the amendment to the first section. It has business enough before it, and doubtless more t p time will be spent in discussing questions in Mr. CRAMBEES thought the motion out of order. iConven- The order of proceeding as he uuderstood it, would tion than was in Committee of the Whole. He saw be to go through all the amendmints first they being no reason for hasty action, and thought that to save etitled to preference over ay othr question cost, reports should be better matured before they are The PRESIDENT understood the parliamentio t ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~The PRE SIDENT understood the parliamentary presented(I rule to be different. A moti-.n to reconsider is always Mr. REEMELIN said that he had a word to say,~ Mr REEMELIN said thathe bha d a word to say, iin order, and must be considered in preference to any in defense of the Legislativ;e Report. The Constitiu other. tional Conventiob, now in session in Indiana, had he motion to reconsider was then diareed to copied three-fourths of their Legislative Report froi question thon being on agreeing to the second ours. ~~~~~~~~~amendment, Mr. SAWYER said that every member of the Coin- MrM'OMCmoetoainthamnmn ltehasgeteRpr,hcwa apetby striking out the words, "each conuty," aud insert good reason for suppos~ ~~ingtanhyhd enhro g in lieu thereof the words, "their respective dis nious; and he thought that if the gentleman fromtrcs Butler (Mr. VANCE,) would look at the amendments that had be en made in Committee of the Whole, he would come to the conclusion that it had escaped TePEIETsi hth nesodterl pretty well —as well as any, perhaps, except that on t e htwe ahaedetcmsu ob 141 OHIO CONV NTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER 20. f "one horse Legislature," and abandoned it in despair. r He would venture to say, that this reduction of the t term of Senators would be as thl, entering wedge in the work of the abolition of that body. . Mr. McCORMICK (interrupting.) I desire to ask a the gentleman when it was he discovered that the French people had abandoned the "one-horse Legisla turee" as he calls it. . Mr. ARCHBOLD. It was virtully abandoned in , the times of Robespierre, when terror reigned; when blood run down the streets of Paris; when the guillo tine was in operation; when terror filled all hearts, so , that the voice of the people was strangled, and the nation itself was ixioreldead than alive. He (Mr. A.) then proceeded further to consider the provision before the Convention, taking the position that two houses were necessary, whether we have an nual or biennial sessions; that a one House Legisla ture would operate with too much rapidity to be Mirect ed and governed by any just expression of the mind of the people; and that it would be fixing up anll oli garchy of the worst stamp. Short terms for reprsenta tives in the public councils-a rapid change of men c ould be of advanitage only to the trading, village politician. He did not pretend to argue this question, but only to throw out some hints, if, peradventure, he might induce gentlemen to pause and reflect. Mr. REEMELIN said, that he could not, even at the risk of intruding at this late hour of the session, per meit the question to be taken, without once more rais isig his voice, against biennial sessions. The friends of biennial were surely becoming afraid of their own shadows, for the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HAW KINS,) seemed to haive some fear of something very serious lurkini beneath his simple proposition, that the first session under the niew constitution should be on the 1st Monday of January,1852. The biennial men were beginning to see ghosts, and they were like men traveling a dark road, which had not a single ray of light to illuminate it. This a ppeared plain, when we observedthese bien nial men frightened from the result of their own principles. ]Biennial sessioss require a quadrenial Senate; but this the biennial men will not grant-and being afraid, that to elect Senators f)r four years, might open the eyes of the people to the fact asserted by ns, that a departure from annual elections and annual sessions to biennial ones, is a departure from the people-is a deniial of the right of the people to reform their Goveriniment whenever they pleased. They ruin the idea of a Senate, and really give us but one house, rather than give up their error. passed upon, it may be amended. The members o the Convention are not obliged to vote negatively e affirmatively upon the proposition as it stands, bu may, if they please, offer amendments to it. Mr. NASH objected to the amendment as uiineces sary. The same thing was otherwise provided for it the report of the Committee on Apportionment. Mi. M'CORMICK insisted upon his amendment. I was proper th at the re should be r e petitions now W hen we ha ve got through w ith all the reports, th Co.mmittee on Final Adjustment will be a ble to riecon cile all parts o f nac the istrumet to each other. th ought whil e we were upon this department, fw ought to settle every principle ecessarily connected wi hth th e legis l at ive fuut oction. Th e qu esti on uon the amendmen t to the anendmien was lost on division-ayes 41, nlays 41. The amendment was then agreed to. The section as amended is in the following words: "SEc. 2. The representatives shall be elected biennially or the second T uesday of October." The qu e stion ontthen being on agreeing to the third amendment, to wit: SEC. 3. In line four, after the word "on," insert the word "the," the same was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the fourth amendimen-t, to wit: SEC. 3. At the end of line five, insert "the United States, or of this State," the same was agreed to, and the section as amended is as follows: SEc.?3. No person shall be a representative unless he pos sess the qualification of an elector, and have attained the age of twenty five years. He shall also have resided within the limits of the county in which he shall be chosen one year next preceding his election, unless he shall have been absent or the public businefs of the United States or of this State, The question then being on agreeing to the fifth amendment, to wit: SEC. 4, line 2. Strike out the word "four," and in sert the word "two." Mr. MANON hoped the amendment would not pre vail. For one, hewas in favor of making the distinic tiorn originally provided for, between the terms of Senators and of Representatives. Mr. ARCHBOLD. Tthe principle upon which gen tlen)eni proceed, would constitute two Houses of Re? resetitatives, without any disitinctioni, except as to name; which be doubted not would be much better than one House. Such was the constitution of our present General Assemrbly; and he had no doubt that our laws irat been,natured mnuch better by two Hous es, than they would have been by the action only of a single body. He hoped that gentlemen would remember that he. had rendered some reasons upon this subject during the Summer session. He did not wish to repeat those ideas now. But he cherished a very decided and strong feeling upIon this subject-a feeling of the utmost repugna ice to this proposition. Ale felt that this body wat akmuotit to enter tlpon an untried and novel experiment He felt, that, if they reduced th- term of the Seliat,,rs to that of the Representatives, that in a short time we should have but one House. And a On,House L,Pgislatlura having becomne the order of the day he feared that it should furnish a prelude to the cry of Death to our republican institutitons. This e,peri,,seut had been tried in the two grea' States of Pf,]ns!,anm and Vlr,hliaan perhps some of I he New E ngland States. But certainly, the experimnert was9 tried by these two greatcommonl wealths until they had proved it to be "eevil, and only evil, andl that constin]ually." And one of the greatest, the mos, polite, and never-to-be-too-much admired amongst the nations of Europe, had also tried the experiment of a dMr R. would also once more remind the Convention, that biennial sessions were equivalent to an eternal deniial to the legislative power to defiie and determine upon the taxes to be levied, and to fix the appropriations of money. Surrender annual sessions, and the urse strings of our treasury remain with your State Auditor for ever. The General Assembly mav attempt to fix, within a few hundred thousand dollars, the revenue to be collected, and so it may attempt to say by a hundred thousand or two, how much money shall be paid out; but the real tangible power over these subiects must be left discretionary with the Auditor, or else the first attempt of the financiering of the General Assembly will make it the laughing stock of all the world. Let men attempt to smile this position down,-tthe experience of a few years,under biennial sessions,would set him right. I s p t t r t 11 u t p 1 4-1 "Coiivince a man against bii will He is of the same opinion still." OHIO CON VEiNTION DEBATE,FRIDAY, DECrMBER 20. In short, it was plain, the fatal leap would be ta- had taken place in the mini-ds of the people with refe ken-biennials were triumphlant. Be it so-all he had rence to biennial sessions of the General Assembly, he to regret, was that he had not the eloquence of an would say, that every indication of such a chaiige ill angel to show them the error of their ways, and to the popular mind hadl escaped his notice. He came weepat the folly, that was leading men in this repub- into this body instructed to favor a ConstitutionaI lican country to adopt the doctrines of the Kings and provision by which the General Assembly should be the aristocrats of Europe. called together but once in two years, unless upon the Mr. GREEN,f Ross said, it would be remembered requisition of the Governor; and, since the Summer that this amendment was made in comminttee of the session, he had told his econstituents that the State whole upon his motion, and that it was adopted by a was in favor of biennial sessions; and for that reason, very decided rilajority of the committee. Hie would amongst others, he should support a four years' termn not now recapitulate what hie had said in comnittee, for Senators. No mnan amongst theiii all had evinced for, if he were to go into the argumrent, it wouild be any change of mind upon the subject, nor cast a breath but to recapitulate what he had said before, of censure upon his course; but he came back here, He had risen now for the purpose of replying briefly endorsed and strengthened in these positions by the to an imputation which seemed to have been cast upon approbation of the people of good old Monroe. hin by his friend, the gentleman from Monroe; name- The gentleman fromn Ross [Mr. GREE-N] had told us ly: That this thing was done, looki-g to a most impor- that his motion to reduce the term of Senators was tant chang- in the legislative department of the gov- made in good faith. fie had no doubt of that. But lihe e,rnient. He assured the gentleman from Motiioe, was also aware, that it needed not to drive a regular that he desired no such restult. He differed entirely bargain between the friends of annual sessions and the upon this subject, with the gentleman from Hamilton, friendsof a unit Legislature. to make one effor amongst who hald just taken his seat; and, if he could even doubt themselves to bring about the success of both these that the adoptioti of his amendment, would lead to any propositions. such result, he should surely abandon it. such result, he should surely abatidon it.. Mr. GREEN of Ross (interrupting.) If the gentle H~e could see nlo necessary connection between bien- rGRE ofRs(itrutn. Iftegnl He could see. 110 neGesn ary connectionl betw een bien- man undertakes to assert that there exists any pre-arnial sessions of the General Ass,embly and the proposi niOal s s befe GSeneral AStesy ad the pro d ringement for a combination, or at concert of action uptioii now before us S.'veral States of the Union on this question between the friends of these two propadopted the same term for the mnembers of both ranh- on this question between the friends of these two prop ositions, I disclaim it. es, which had been adopted here in committee of the oMr. ARCHBOLD also disclaim ed the assertion; but whole, the ase A Vowc). "What number of e the case required no pro. arrangement, where it was so A VoICE. "What number of the States?" Mr. GREEN could noo tell at once; but if the.gen obvious that the success of the designs of the friends of tM.Gema,i would otake the trouble; to look back theo one propositionl would advatice the wishes of the friends tle~mani would take the trouble to tookl back into the ofteohr no0f thie other. debates, it might be found where he (Mr. G. ) had re- H roee ferren to these examples particularly. He proceeded to reply to the intimation of tht e gen He recollected very well, that, at the time this mo- tleiotan from Ham ilton, [Mr. REEcIELIN] that hli. poetioei wVas made, it was charged upon him as a covert ion, that short termsof office, instead of increasing th6 attack upoil the theory of biennial sessions Bioeut power ofthe people, only increased thepoweroftle mere attack upi]on tlhe theory of biennial sessions. But: -whether this be so considered or not, and whether village politician-the managers and wire-workers, were biennial sessions be adopted or not, he was desirous anti democratic. The rule which ought to regulate offithat this provision shoulld remain as reported by the Icial terms was that which would enable the people to form Committee of the Whole He saw no necessary con- a justjudgmenlt of the nianner in which the incumbent nection between these o proposions but it g had performed There was a point in this matter, from neetio-n between these two propositions; but, ei~r e - tlemen mere deteriined to consider them as related to which, if we diverge, the plane would be likely to each otheir lie would suggest whether it would nlot "turn the other way," and diminish the power of the be better to postpone the fi, rther consideration of the people That was the point of difficulty; anl thereamendment till the other question shall be disposed of. suit of goiig to either extreme, instead of producing a Mr. ARICHBOLD next gained the floor, but yielded faithful representation of Democracy, would produce a for monstrous absurdity. Mr. TAYLOR, who desired, before the gentleman Mr. KING, (interposing,) desired to ask the genfrom Monroe proceeded with his argumant, to refer to tleman whether he considered that the term of two an admission which that gentleman made (luring the years would be long enough for the people to formin a summer session, with respect to the subject of dual correct judgment, with reference to the choice of their Legislature. Sometime during that session, the gen- representatives? tleman was advocating the necessity of two branches Mr. ARCHBOLD was of opinion that two years wr HOuld bes lofll eopinif n thet peopl headO_orsu of the General Assembly, because of the chance that would be long enough, if the people had opportunithe bills of one House could be materially revised inties for discussion. According to his plan they would the other; but allowing himself to couple with his have to form some political judgment, once every two argument the important admission, that he had fre- years. Butthe termas should be graduated according quently known bills of the House to pass the Senate to the number of people called upon to act. without consideration, through a feeling of complais- Mr. KING would propound another question This aice, on account of personal influence, or some such body was enuaged here in constructing the organic cause. Such being the fact, the inference, he sup- law for the State of Ohio, which must be submitted posed, would impair the force of the gentleman's ar to the people, and they must pass some judgment eigument in favor of two Houses. ther in the way of approbation or rejection, and he Mr. ARCHBOLD replied, that if ever he had made would ask the gentleman whether it ought to require such an admission, he had utterlv forgotten it; so so much as four years for the people toforman opinaion that, before the gentleman could use it in argument in regard to this matter. against him, he would have another labor to perform Mr. ARCHBOLD admitted, that when the people -that of awakening in his mind and memory the re- were greatly roused-when any questions of paracollection of having made the admission. mount importance were presented th them-a larger With reference to the opinion of the gentleman from number of the people would desert the plow when Hamilton (Mr. Rr~iELiN), that a sympatietic change they were called upon to consider a question of the 143 OHTIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRInAY, DEcEMBER 20. Il e made these remarks, because he wished to call the attention of gentlemen favorable to bietnnial sessiotns, to the fact, tlhat there was 1no necessity to extend the Senatorial term tbevyond two years, for thie sake of any supposed symmetry in tile, principle. Mr. TAYLOR, by way of personal -xplanation, said, lie had hitherto scrupulously avoided the initroductioii here of any thing not gerinaiti to the subject, until to-day, when he asked the gentleinant froin Monroe, (Mr. ARCUtOLD,) with reference to the adiniission to which he had referred, and intended, Iperhaps, to use in this discussion, when lie might attempt to show that tithe tendency of two branchies of the Legislature was to an excess of legislatiot; and that their labors would result in less well-considered action than the labors of a single branch. He had mtade his reference before en. tirely from memory, anid upon the spur of the momfent. He would nlow refer to the remarks of the gentleminan from Monroe, as recorded in tile Official Reports, p. 148, delivered by that gentleman ot thie 22ad day of May last: [Mr. T here read from Mr. ARCaHBOLD'S speech above referred to.] Mr. ARCHBOLD cared not to ask for leave to explain. Hle did not pretend that all his woIds were wise and well chosen and well timed. Mr. MITCHELL objected to occupying the time of the Convention, in personal explanatiotis and exposit ionus of the inconsistencies of members. He hoped the convention would not indulge in any such rarnb ling discussions, so unfavorable to progress. The questioni before us involved but a single point. Mr. GREEN of Ross now renewed his motion to lay the section and proposed amendment uponi the la utmost urg ency and importance, than would be foun at the poll s upson coonfro n occ asions. The c ase whlt the gentleralr had present lyd -wa s quite different fro] those ca-es whiereini tie people were called upon tc form opin, ions upol the ordinary subject s of legisla tion. Mr. DORSEY said, th e g entlem an from Mo nro e hao passed over some ground of argum entation to shoe th superiority of a four y ears term for Senat ors ovei the term for two y ears, itout producing any effct up on h is mind. Whether this waas on account-of hi W own obtuseness of pe rcepttol, or the wa nt of for e if the argument, he lwoul d not pretend to determine. H should vote for reta i ning "two years" in the section, for vario lis reasons. But he should not do so because of any hope or desire thereby to bring the Convention back to the establishment of annual sessions of tle Legislature. He believed there was no question which had been agitated in this Convention, upon which the nw itds of the people were more me fully and determinate ly settled, than this question of biennial sessions o the Legislature. There was certainly no question more generally or more frequently spoken of amongst the peiople, prior to the election of Delegat es. Ite had hear d dmuch of a change in the public mind since that time, but he had seen no evidence conclusive to his mind, that any material change had taken place. Therefore he should continue to favor the provision for biennial sessions. All the states of the Union which had reformed their constitutions within a few year, past, had made the terms of their senators and representatives identical. There mriighit be atn exception, but he could then think of none. The fact was that no good reason had been assigned this mornitng, and he doubted whether any could be off,-red, why the term of service of a senator should be greater than that of a representative. Both Houses stood upon the same platform; there was no distinction between a senator and a representative, except ill nlLale, anlid i,l the number of constituents which they respectively represent. They both come up to the capitol to represent the sarmie interests, under the sanie influences, and "or the purpose of carrying out the same great ends; and with all gentlemen could say about the instability of such a Legislature, lie could see nothing that c,,uld help the matter by continuiiig these senators io office lounger than two years. He had not yet heard a sitigle arPument, in thisbody or elsewhere, going to show that sta,bility could be acquired for any department of the governimenit by lengthening the terms of offi(ce. The stability of free government, as he considered; de,ended ul,oni a very differenrt priniciple. He was always in favor of the shortest terms of office, where, there was not good reason to the contrary. He was in tuavor of biennial sessions of the Legis!ature, because he believed that they would just as well subserve the wants of the public, and because he believed they were cakled for by the popular voice; and he must see sorme strong expression of the public mind upon the subject, before he could be induced to extend the term of our senators to a i,-t,ger period than two years; because it Aoul.{ be in violation of a great principle which ought to obtain nore favor in this country. M~r ARCHIgOVLD (in~terposinsg.) The latest inl.ti mation of the progress of public, opinion upon this subject has been givenI in the Indiana Convention; and they had establishled their Senatorial term for,four years. -Mr. DORSEY. The gentlemlan might interpret progress one way and he another. He wanted to see a well-definled expression of the wish of the people of Ohio, to that effect, before he would be willing to exten~d the Senatorial term to any period beyond two years.. )le. The motion was lost; and the question recurred upon the amendment, reported from the Coinriittee of the Whole. Mr. MANON should vote against the amendment reported, whether his course were denounced as antide mocratic or not. With annual sessions of the Legislature, lie would be in favor of a two years terrn for Senators; and were his own views alonte to be consult ed, he should vote for;nnual sessions; but if there was any question upon which his constituents were united, it was to sustain the l)roposition for biennial sessions. He desired, to some extent, to hold a checkiatg power in the Senate, and, for that reason, with bienial sessions, he should vote for the term of four years for Senators. Mr. STANTON said, no man had been more anx ious than he, to secure biennial sessions. But he had experience enough in Legislation, to know, that it would not do well to send up a Genteral Assembly composed entirely of new members.'I'hey must have some menibers of experience in the Legislation of the State; and this was a matter of primary necessity, es pecially in the Senate. This atmendmelt reported from the Committee of the Whole was utterly hostile to biennial sessions; and there were members around him, who would vote for t, because, by the success of this amentiment, they expected to gaii strength for annual sessions; and to ihis mind, th is proposition was much more objectioensa. ble than annual sessions. tIe doubted very much whether he himself could vote for annual sessions, if thereby he would be depriving the General Assemxibly of the advantages of Leg islative experience. Besides the State wanted stable men in the Legislature. In these times of popular agitations, we wanted a Senate capable of pouring oil upori those agitated waves. He warned the Convention, that the success of this ,amendment, would in all probability, be the destruc 144 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER'20. Mr. REEMELIN. That was not the question. The question was, not as to the amount of power, but whether the power taken fiiom the Legis.lative department was tlot conferred uponi the Executive department? Mr. RANNEY. The Executive could only exercise Executive power. Mr. REEMELIN. The taxing power was not an 1 Executive power. Mr. RANNEY. Certainly not. But, according to the principle that all power was inherent in the peeple, it could only be removed from them in such cases as they might choose to delegate it. Then it was plain that if the people delegated the exercise of their power only once in two years, they retained more power in their own hands than if the(y delegated their pow:ir every year. But if tihere were no other consileration thanti the demand of the popl)ular judgment for biennial sessions on account of the expense that would be saved, he would still be in favor of that rule. If gentlemen were willing to go home and tell the people that they had voted for annual sessions because they could not succeed with the propositionI for Senators to hold over fo(r ifour years, he feared for their justification. Mr. McCORMICK regretted much that this dis cussion had taken the course it had. He could see nropropriety in iscussing the question of annual or biennial sessions of the General Astseimll)ly in this connection. He was unable to see hover this question could be made to depend, in any nm)anner, upoln the establislMhment of t he term of Seiagtori.i.'Witii reference to the former question, it appeared to him, that the Convention had already decided, time and again, what they un derstood tt e will of tlhe peop le to be. And he also eregretted that some g entlemen had been pleased to say, that those who were in favor of but one branch to the Legislature, wv,ere in favor of the pending amendment, because its success might assist them in their movement. The gauntlet had alreadv been thrown down to us who were in favor of that proposition; and gentlemen would find that it had been taken up; and that such arguments as could be offered ini its favor, would be offered freely at the proper time. And they would find also, that we should demand to be snet by reason; that we should require that logical rea,:onings should be met by logical reasonings, and if we were to be defeated, it should not be by mere brute force. But we return. The question nOW under conside ration was, whether the Senators should hold two or four vears. Why should Seniators li hold for two years, and no more? First, because the people of Ohio de malnded short terms-a frequent surrender of official trusts. All officers of the governeni-,eit were but agents of the people; and it was reasonable that all agents should be immediately responsible to their principals; that they should only hold their aencv longll enough to enable them to perform the service as signed to them and that they should then Eive an aceoigt c-f the man ner in which they had performed tlat service. That, certainly, was a very material and conclusive reason against the proposition to prolong the Se'natorial term; and it ought to be sufficient to carry the vote of every mnan having a just regard for the voice of the people. If the voice of the people were to rloue ill this matter, it seemed to him that this question noas already settled; for, be concurred wvith the genltlemlan'from Trumbull (Mr. RANNzY) in the opinion, that, if this body were instructed by the people with reference to anything, it was, that the terms ofs offdee should be short. He desired now to be indulged inl a few words of reply to the gentlemana from Logan, (Mr. ST~tinos,) tion and defeat of the proposition for biennial sessions of the Lo,gislature. Mr. HAWKINS should vote, against this amendmerit, in view of the staiemernlt made by the gerntleman from Hamilton (Mr REEMELIN.) Those favorinig bienn:ial sessions should vote against the present amendment; for if it were to succeed, lie doubted whiethler biennial sessions could bc maintained. As an individual, if he were to forget that he stood here in the character I' a representative of the people, he would vote for annual sessions. But acting for his constituents, hlie felt the obligation to carry out their will, and heshould (do so acrordiiug to his ability. It was the instability of our la ws, t hat t he people desired tocorrect, and the exp e nse of abunnal sessions of the Legislatu ie th tre a to heatio ai they desre to get rid of; and, if these two difficulties cou ld not be othli erwis e remedied, he would ag ree, t ha t the forwer sessions we have of the L eg isla tur e th e be tter. Mr. R.ANNEY desired barel y to say that he was in favor of biennial sessions, in favor of two branches of the Legislature, and in favor of a Senatorial term of two y ea rs. He should vote for themr all, as involvin g no inconsis tency whatever. He wa s convinced that the people would not be satisfied with th e proposed exten sion o f the S ena torial t erm. H e neve r would be satisfied himself, to delegate Legislative power for a longer term a than two years. He w as opposed to extending this term upon principle. It was too long altoge ther. No otan could look into t he future for four years to come. We were in the midcst of a great and growing country. Interests of vital importance are c ontinually beibg created and continually changisbg and it ewa s proposed to delegate pawe r for four years. To-da y the opirnion s o f the repr esen tative might be in accordance with the opinions of a majority of his constituents. But, under a new combination of circumstances, it ight b e that he wouldi take a position which would misrepresen t their views entirely. There was no force in the argumente, th a t sufficient stability c ould not be gained for this branch of the Genera l Ass embly from the experience of two years. If entlemien wnere about to set up a school to educate and raise up Senator s f or the State, the re onight be some weight inb th is araunhvengt. But the presumption was,i th at the people had already some sense amongst themselves, and that th ey ne eed no t be compelled to wait twL o y ears for a Senator w to gr ow. He saw no inconsiste ncy in establishing the same term for Senators and Repreaen-attives. Seven o ut o f eight of the foremost States of the Union had established this rule. Mr. HtUMPHREVILLE (in his seat.) Six out of eight. Mr. RANNEY was in favor of two branches of the General Assemiiblv, because it secured the separate consideration of every measure suibm-iiitted for Legislative action; and because every Senator would represent a different-a larger constituency, than a Representative in the other branrich, and would be under the control of different influences. And he wlas in favor of bienniial sessions, not only because it would save expense, but because the world was overn. ed too much. Mr. REE IELIN (interrupting.) What amount of government Should you get clear of, by the establishmen?t of biennuial sessionrs? Would you not confer upon the executive all that yoll woutld take away from the Legislative Departelllt?? Mr. RA5-NEY said that Representatives and Senators were but agents of t he people. Suppose one1 were to conlstitute all agent to act f'or him for the term of one month. ansd another agenltto act for him for' the termn of twpo years, would bo~thil of thlese agents be vines~ted with the samue amount of power'? I t t 11a c a 14.5 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FIDiY, DECEMBER 20. tw e nt y mem bers who would no t vot e for both propositions. I did not mean to include the gentleman front Ross. Mr. GREEN did not think the explahation (except as to himself personally,) made anv difference il the statement he had submitted. He differed with that gentleman, and held with the sentiment expressed upon this question by the gentleman from Trambull [Mr. RANNl:Y,] and the gentleman from Adams [Mr. McCoR-NIcK.] He would not again trouble the Convention with the views which, upon a former occasion, he had expressed upon this question; but, as gentlemen had thought proper to mingle the pending question with the subject of biennial sessions, and since the gentleman from Logan had taken it upon himself to warn the f'iends of biennial sessions against lending their assent to the two years Senatorial term, he would take the liberty, in his turn, to call upon those who were in flavor of short'terms of offce, to come up now, and "manifefst their fasith byr their worlks." Mr. ARCHBOLD, (interposing,.) I understand that the gentleman from Adams, (Mr. McCoRMIcK,) is in favor of a seven years' term for the Judges; and I should not think the gentleman from Ross would be likely to succeed in conjuring such spirits -from the vasty dees." Mr. GREEN knew that "spirits from the vastyr deep," might be called unheeded; and he knew also<, that there were some spirits within these wxvalls that would not come for the call of reason. Bu1t he was about to remark upon the peculiar propriety of short terms in this department of the government, in order to relieve himself from the charge of inconsistency, growing out of the fact, that, heretofore he had not advocated the proposed short term for the Judges. He held that the Legislative department of the government -%as the reflection of the popiilar will. It -"as as the mirror of the popular win, and there was no principle more thorouiglylv republican, than that which demanded a frequent accountability of those agents of the people whom theiy intrust with the Legislative powers of the government. But the courts, representing the majesty of the law, should be periiianent, fixed, settled in their administration. Hf held that it was better to have no laws, than to have the laws frequently changed by judicial legislation, The stability of the Judiciary was all-important. It needed not for him to go into an argumenit to show, that the people should frequently have the power to call back their representatives in the Legislative deDartmernt, who may have been either ignroranlt or un'aithful in regard to the public wants. It was proposed to elect the Governor every two years. Where was the propriety of making this disinction against the Executive, by calling him to acroant every two years, and surrendering for twice the erm of the Executive the mo,t important powers of he Government, the legislative trust? He would ask enttlemen to think deliberately upon this proposition, inil not suffer their minds to be carried away by what oever phantoms that might be gathered up to frighten lhein from their propriety. He would ask for this mendment, that it be treated as a separate and inidependenit proposition, resting upon its ownl merits as perWainin~g to the great theory of representative governsnent. He had been surprised to hear gen1tlemen deslare, that, rather than lo~se their darlinig theory of -binunial sessions, they were willing to commit a violaLion of one of the first principles of our government, viiling to give Up a principle, tor the sake of carrying but an experimenlt.He hoped gentlemen would weigh and consider the losing remarks of the gentleman from Trambull, (Mr. and the gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. ARCHBOLD.) It appeared to be a sine qua non with these gentlemen, that the term of the Senators should be double that of the lmemtnbers of the House of Representatives; but would these gentlemen be so good as to look at the effect of their argument, before they proceed to estab lish themselves firmly upon it? One of these gentle men, (Mr. STANTON,) liead insisted that some Legisla tive experience was necessary in the General Assem bly, in order that business mnioht be properly conduct ed; and if this proposition were true with reference to the Senate, it was equally true with reference to the House; for the members of the House, newly elected, would be equally inexperienced; and those gentlemen who denounce the proposition for a short Senatorial term, by their own reasons, declare the House shall have no term, or in other words, there should be no House,and thereby favor what they are pleased to call the feudal and absurd proposition for a one branch Legislature. Why should the gentlemen forget that, Legislative experience was necessary in the House as well as in the Senate? for, admitting the necessity of Legislative experience, as the gentlemen affirm, oce of two things would follow: either a portion of the mem r e bers of the House must hold over, or the House it- self become useless. But, he took the other side of the argument. If Legislative experience were necessary in one branch of the Leoislature, it was also necessary inii the other; and the greater the experience the more able and facile the traii.sactioni of business. And this being ad- mitted, it follows also, that the longer the term of the Legislator, the better service he would render. Gentlemen would be compelled to advocate this proposi- tion upon their own admission; namely, that, if it is better a Senator should hold over for four years, it would be a better rule, to require him to hold over for six years; and, that if six years were better than four e years, he should hold for eight years; and so on; and thus, if they did not render the office hereditary, they would at least appoint their Senators for life. The very moment the principle, that official trusts should be frequently surrendered to the people, is abandon- i ed, war is waged against the principles of republi- X canisiti. Mr. ARCHBOLD (in his seat.) How would you h defend the two year's term? t Mr. McCORMICK. Upon this principle, that the Legislature hold but one session in two years,and then X the members both of the Senate and House, deliver up t their pow-er, and were it determined to have the Geil- e eral Assembly in session annually, he would be in fa- I vor of electing the members of both Houses every f year. When men prate of their democracy, he desired to y see them "show their faith by their works," and he t would have gentlemen vote upon the pending ques- c tion, not being influenced either by their preference t for annual or biennial sessions, or for one or two t branches of the Legislature, but being actuated sim- g ply by their prefence either for a two years or a four a years term for Senators. s Mr. GREEN, of Ross, should not again have t troubled the Convention upon this subject, but he a was forced to do so in defence of his own position. p The gentleman from Logfan, [Mr. STANTON,] when ti last upon the floor, warned the friends of biennial en sessions to beware of this amendment, that it was a c covert attack upon their favorite theory; and he as e sured them that, if it were not for defeating the pro- ti vision for biennial sessions, no gentleman upon this w side of the chamber would advocate such an absur- ou dity as a two years term for Senators. Mr. STANT03O, [interposing.] I said there were cln 146 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FPRIDAY, PECI:MBER. 20. 147 RANNEY.) He wold ask them, if they were willing two branches to thle Legislature, but that there should to go home to their constituents and say totliejn, "It be a discrimination and a difference in the periods of is true that, w(1 did violate one of the most essential time for nwhich the meirmbers of the two Houses should principles in the theorv of free government; the pow- I be elected; and that it was of the most essential im er of calling our imnrnediate Representatives, at short' po.tance that, at earch recurring sessioni of the Legisila periods, but we did it simply because we wanted to ture, thebre should remain some legislative experience save you some fifty thlousand dollars inthe annual ex- a| Iongst at least a portion of the members of that body. penses of Legislation? He admitted that it was the He would not say, positively, that, if the amendment duty of this body so to frame the Constitution, that should pirevail, he would go ii favorof annual sessions; the operations of government might be carried on as but suoh were his presenlt views and opinions. economically as possible; nevertheless, if they were Mr. COLLiNGS had entered this Convention as a to place in the scales utere dollars and cents in oppo- fiiend of biennial sessions; nor had he yet changed sitioii to any of those cardinal principles lyitig at the those impressions. But those impressions were never foundation of our governimetit, they would verv soon so strong as to indiiuce him to seek to place a provision find out which end would "kick the beam." The peo-I for biennial sessions in the Constitution, when such a ple, much as they desire economiy in the administration provision would conflict with any other portion of the of the government, yet they regard those great priii- Constitution. But the Convention had voted that ciples essential to the preservation of liberty, of vast- there should be no assessinent of taxation, but by thei ly more importanc(e than a few thoausands. direct action of the Legislature. He submitted, then. Mr. I-IUNT had heretofore very doubtfully support- whether it would be safe to clothe the Legislature ed biennial sessions; but he was now satisfied that with power to assess the per cent. of taxation so far aninual sessions would be more democratic. He saw as two years in advance? He aflirnied that this vote no force at all in the argune nt for biennial sessions, had brought them back to the necessity for a continu upon the score of economy ance of aiinial sessions; and since tliev had agreed Mr. SAWYER had onlv aword to sayv-onily wanted to a provision making annual sessions necessary, hlie to get the last word. The committee which repoited had vielded his preference for biennial Iessions. He this bill, conitemplating the establishment of annual supposeel the Executive could not be trusted with the sessions, thought it best to adopt the four years term assessment of the per ceut. of taxation and by refefor Senators;and, not-withstanding thleCommitteeofthb reice to the contingencies of famine, of revulsions il Whole had proposed two years, hlie still thought the trade, antd breaches in the public works, he showed Conventioi ought to retirin to four years. tlhat the great interests of taxation could not be safely He was particularly attached to biennial sessicns exercised for two yea rs in advance. For this reason, of the Legislature.'his question had been agitated he should vote for the two years' term, expecting to in the community in which hle lived, and he believed I brinog the Conventioit backl to tihe establishment of he had not heard there a dissenting voice. IHe wa| annual sessions. bound, therefore, to support biennial sessions, not 3ir. },IASON said, the Convenition was called upon only by the known will of his constituents, but also to amiend the report by reduciing the term of Senators by his own sense of right. So stron" was lhis attach from four to two years. If the proposition for biennillent to bieninial (sessions, that, if striking out the al sessions were to be retained, he would be in favor four years' termn for Senators, and inserting two years, of four years, and would vote, with the gentlemani were essential to the establishment of biennial ses- from Auglaize (Mr. SAwvE) and others, in favor of sioiS, he would be w illing to yield his predilections i the sectionl as reported by the standing committee. for four years. He was most fully persuaded that kLi- But, if annual,ession, were to be adopted, he would ennial sessions, under the proposed curtailmeints of theit be in faivorof reducing the term to two years. the power of the Legislature, would be ample and tUntl thelse question of annual and biennial sessions sufficient for all purposes. Upon the score of econc could be disposed of and the one or the other deteroy, there would be a reduction of the expenses of the mnined upoin, it would be impossible for him, or for elections, and a saving on account of printing, and any other niemiber of the body, to give a satifactory, mileage of members, which, together, would armoutn intelligeit and proper vote upon the pending questioti.' to imaly thousands of dollars; and there would be (f- And because gentlemen could not control their own fected, also, an escape fiom the ill consequences of, will uponI this question, he desired to postpone the being encumbured with too much legislation. further conisideration of the section for the pres iMr. SMI'TH of Warren, would state the ground up- ent. on which he should cast his vote. When the second +Mr'. MIASON then moved a re-consideration of the section of this article was under consideration Ot the vote by which the Couvention had refused to postpone suintmer session, he then endeavored to show wvhy he the section. was in favor of biennial sessiolns. He stated then his But, before the motion was entertained, belief, that a very large majority of members upon On motion, by Ir. LARSwLL, the Convention took a this floor, were in favor of the provision reported from recess. the statiding committee, and he reckoned himself with that F]ajority. But he wished now to say, that, if the pendilng amendment were to be agreed to-if it were AFTERrNOON SESSION. to be made a constitutional point, that the Senators 3 O'cLOCK, r. M. shall be elected for the same period of time with the members of the House ot Representatives in the Genera! Assembly of the State,-notwithstaitding his opin- The question being on re-consideriig he vote by ion had not undergone any change with reference to which thle motion to pass by the fifth amendment, the provision for biennilal sessions, he should consider (being a propositiotn to tsaks the term of State Senathat the inconveniences resulting from the adoption of tors two years instead of four) was lost, this amendment would be so great, that, with his pre- Mr. McCORMICK said Mr. President, I hope that sent opinions, lhe would have to go in favor of annual the motion to re-consider will tiot prevail, and I hope sessions. He was agreed to the declaration of the gen- to be able to show such reasons as moay induce geontleo tieman frmin Logan (Mr. STANTON,) that it was essen- torn to agree with me- We bafe, but a short tima ial to free govertittieatt, not only that we should have tic,C resolved that we will inot pass over any portion 11 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRID AY D, c'B, R 20,. :!. ~ busitpess, but take it up serialim and thus pro- Mr. CHAMBERS was extremely sorry to hear sech gy:'swil.'ith uitntil the whole had beoen one through language as that made-use of by the genteleman from ~t'h,! d6o hope that members willadhere to that reso- Adams, [Mr. M'CoamicK.] He aid not consider that lution.: fm: r'asons which I shall now assign. I find tihe occasion called for such bitter remarks gencerally, in, lbsn Qii St.ate Jourtal, the following article: with regard to the conduct of the great whig party, .'. -:- "CO iSTITUTIONAL LEGISL.TION. or that a single paragraph in a newspaper, which .iA distiasnished member ofthe Constitutional Convention might, or might not, have been written by a member wn'iting 4o-u_ says:.... of tiis body, should have excited such remarks and meOurtime has been wasted in an effort to legislate, for severe animadversions pa on the great whig part ofthe 'tiefbt thenineaj ority deserv a realte castigation. Had the State of Ohio, and more particularly on those who Convention. confined itself to altering-what had been deemeeit ato eedehng.,. the Judiciary, we might have closed up ere were their representatives ii this body. He, for one, wm adjtrne. isaJuly. As it is, we shall now waste. three had come there for the purose of assisting in the for 'i'0on ths""iure:in attempts to legislate.: mation of a Constitution, under which they would .'Pli ergtnneiit is the people cannot be trusted, they will live in harmony and concert.. That was h asradomtwitqs esdo not approve of, therefore we:must prohibit harmony and concert. Tat as his aspiraThsre.is a t*o los of all confidence in the good sense ot the tion by day and by night; and with regard to the aspme r w cmle',s the follwin Editor sertion made by that gentleman, that all the whigs ,"Avfr,ll c6m oes the following Editorial:. were opposed to the making of a new Constitution, qTchih'e~'Cssof -Legislation in a Constitution, is one of the he was in a position to state, that were it not for the evil ~t~tinesand the majority at Cin'cin~nati seem detereinsa "ttOeft is, h and absurd as any of their nei ghborster- exertions of a distinguished whig member of the Leia.thii lt. hiskindofdemocracy that le,vesnothing gislature, from the county of Muskingum,'this body ..e.qifby those that cme after them; thiat assumes to would not now be sitting in Convention. So much, ittlf al'tthe wisdom there is going; and that trusts nothing then, for the assertion, that the whigs were opposed to tfhe goftl dse of the people, is tne kind that now prevails. v m Froni ir.o oations from different parts of the State, we fee tO making a new Constitution. 'etra,rttedian saying that this monstrous assumption is last He would tell that gentleman, [Mr. MeConMIeK,] dlgusting ]he sefecting portion of our citizens.. and those around him, that not one of the whig party "It would be as well for these men to remember that the within the reach of his voice, had any other feeling ,:;plei Waved yet to pass upon their labors.". ..e is a - ettpasuothilaos"on the matter than a sincere and anxious desire that Mit. ] t./ 1)-RMdAK resumtned: I do not know, Mr such a Constitution should be framed as would be for PresfdeitI nt rdo care to know, who the "distint- the general good, without distinction of class or gru-i.hed member of the Convention is, who wrote that party, le.tt;r o penneid the accompanying article, or whether Ttie re-consideration of the vote by which the moanh'y pdfrsin::hobdtIng a seat in this Convention did so at tioii to pass by the fifth amendment was lost, was reatll:br were':iny. member of this Convention so to fused. writ;e,:to ht,or any other paper, he would be unwor- The question then being on agreeing to the fifth thyto tta iseat with us, or i any body composed amendmenet-to wit-to strike out the word "four"' of honorble men, because, a delegate acting thus and insert the word "two," in e4tsection,provid 91us,and insert the word " two," im hie 4thisectio.n~,pro vid~makes iiuse.of his influence to destroy the labors and iltug for the tarm ofl Senators. i"f'uen T this'body. No honorable mtan would.. Mr. SMITH [of Warren] moved a call of the Conlak it':i i f -inisetf the commissiou of such an act veniion,and being ordered. Bult w *.h'mev it twas written by a rme,ibar or not, it was Messrs. Case [of Lickinig,] Curry, Cutler, Ewin.g, a~"lYeajte hint to the majority, and fri wWhoi I suppose Hitchcock [of Cuyahoga,] Hitcheock -[of Geauga,] the oak teat'itioI was intended, as to what the:r duty was Mason, Nash, Orton, OtLis, Stanbery,- Stickney Swan, If, as gentlemen say, we are wasting the time of the IThompnpson [of Shelby,] Townslientid, Vance[of GhamuConvei:tlun and th-ae people, let us cease from so doung.2 paign,] and Way, were found absent. WE' 6o tht idee of the chamber are the majority; and On motion, Meusrs. Ewing and Way, absent on aci for;Oti'," p'ro'se to the rest of that majority, that we count of indisposition, were excused.:... im:ediAitelyp,oceedd and perform the labors assigned On motion of Mr. BENNETT, all furtherproceedto''. fO i ai cordanee with our duty, and according to ings under the call were dispensedi with.: ~the dieltet~6 our consciences; and tIlet trust to the Mr. MORRIS said that having already delivered peod~ sti%'their deeision. No man on the democratic hisse'itiments onl the subject of the fourth section;, lihe side,1s dafti fi tru.t the people; and I here -leclare any did not consider it necessary to repeat hii forrner argu, char'g;tty i6-i'h1:e contrary to be an unequivocal falsehood. menis- especially as his opinion remained, unchanged. ';hT s t:i:iot the first effort, Mr. President, which has He wasiin favor of biennial sessiolis;'wliicli was a praboerunmadeby this paper, (holding up the Ohio State mountit consideration with him, and for which, lihe Jurn?a,t),t d:bvYits friends of a particular party, to should vote under all circumstatices. Since the adinjure'th. sitahdiing, as well as to impede the progress journinent, he had had, opportuttities ot consulting of this Conventiont It is not the first broad hiut, or with-his constituents; and they were as one man, and inuendot that' thllis Convention, and all its labors, were with, one voice, itl favor of that measure The peoa~lesotrabeto the State. Itiswell knowni that plei.tfelt that they had-an excess of Legislation. They a large portion of the whig party were opposed to any wanted less of it, and better done than it had been amendments in the Constitutioii, and it was their ob- hitherto; as also that the Legislature should be reject from the first day of thie Conivention up to the stricted in its time of sittintig, He cared not what parpresenuttie time, to edeavor to defeat the effrts of those ty was for one measure or another; his object should who ionsidited that amendments to the organic law of be the attaiiinment of bieinnial sessions, upon that qaesthe State were necesary. This then, was only part tion, he had no fears of his constituents being diapleasad parcel. of the antics to be played off, as well as of'ed with the vote which he should give. t'i,soheaes to be resorted to, by that party. Their Mr. BARBEE said that he felt called:upon to say a paper:apeaks of the labors of the Convention, and seeks few. words-;not as regards his position before the to lower the bodyini:publiceestimation; but their ob:ctt house, but as to his position before the people by isiptain. They know that -if the confidence of the pso- whom he bad been sent here, and for whose good opin. pg is shaken now, it would be difficult again to restore ion he felt desirous. Up to the present time he had it. But ttrust and I believe that all such efforts will voted for biennial sessions in accordance with his prrone Dabotive ifn effect, as they are dishonorable ill de- views; as well (he had reason to believe,) as, in accor str,,:-,'3;4:,i.'dance with the views of his constituents. But after ,4q OHIJO.,.CONVENTION DEBAT'T — F.IDAV, [)EctEMR'.R: 20. hearing the argameits on the Report in Committee of mnts; with the increasing facilities afforded themfbv the Whole, as well as on the reading of the Report it- i the ingenious inventions of her citizeus; and that Ibex self, he hati come to the cncl sion, - ere advancing-not with the rapidity of the locomo tive, but with that of the telegraph itself —he wou14 return to the supportof annual sessions. It had been ask of them to pause and inquire, what may be thei.i remarked that there was a general cry for. biennial wants before the expiration of four years?'The poli! ,qessionu' th't, the people were tired and Wearied with tical aspect of the State may be changed. Four yeai, annual sessions ani.that they were burthened with hence-a reverse might come; the condition of their legislative enactments. He did not wonder at, th cry,i nu h as he felt that they' had reason to complain. When appy elan mg wht b coanged a at the be'~~i~ature as well as the ~might now elec ao nn hoe -via w coincideil will' the, Legislature assemnbled, their time, as well as tl~ heisve,iteevt fsha heaslehi mo ~ eiabled, theiri, t et, ion the event (if such' a charge as le had inuneyof theState Was spent in foolish quibbling, as adverte(d to, it would be well to have it ii their pow-i ......a p a r.. shuldaLibb l t h ring-, of:vr nn to what part, y should assume the reiis ot government. er to call on their agent or representative, for an ac An~d perhaps, thle most futile sourc of evil exis~ting count once in every year, or at farthest once in everi under the old Constitution, was tlhe mode by which two years. the laws were enated~.~ Two-thirds of. the whole, body He was also of opinion that the Senators shou-lddb" com-Ip,osedQ a~quogr~tmfor the tranisact,ion of businiess;- }th yb'r ftb. dtected for a longer period, tha n the meubers of the maiority of which, enact,ed laws. Now, this so-called Legislative assembly, and should accordingly' vote to majority, amounted to.about twenty-five members,; o s'istain the ameudmeut made iii Committee of'tite that, in reatky, t,he formation of the laws rested with Whole. a.. minority Was~ any man sniprised, that, with The question then recurring on the fifth amendsuch a state of things, there should come up from the meait, (bhfore recited,) people a univeT;al:ry against the frequency of An- Mr. HAWKINS demanded the yeas aid'nays and nual S ssions? It was not by the voice of the people, beiig ordered resulted-yeas 56, iavs as follows: hut by tlat of a:small minority, the laws of the land were enacted. And every measure which pa.-Messrs. Barbee, Bennett, Blair, Brown of C'arroll, houses of the Legisladture didaso, without the yeas and Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Clark, (ttllinigs, Do-s,y hiarr, Foibes. Graham. Greene of Defiance. Gieen of IZesq. nays being' taken, thus, (to a certain extent)}relieving Gregg, Giocsbeck, Hard. Htarlan, Holnes, leoli Hootmia, the m embi~ers fr,.om.,individual responsibility. Humphreyitie, Hunt, Hunter. Johnson, King, Lawrence, Nomr did the causeof complaint end there. Honor- Larw~tl, Leech Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, McCoimick, Norris, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Riiiney, Reetmelin, able members were constantly in the habit of inten- Riddle. oll,,Scott of Auglaize, Smith nr vyandli/t, tionaltv abserting themselves from "the house, when Stidger, Struble, Tay lor, Thompson. of ta, isiei~ d mneas u re were under discussion which they wished Vance of Butler, Warren, Wilson. Woodbury, W ortliingtou to pass, but which, from niotivesof policy, they could and Pre not vote foir. But, it would be some cOnsolation to the NAy-.-, Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Brniett, of Montgom I to'knowthatthec was a to b oved ery. Barnet of Preble, Bttes, Bickeiisd,rfer, Browi of pkn oAthens Chambers, Cook, Curry, Lwait, Floreice, Gitteit. hli RHpoit of the committee contemplated. a preyi Gray, Hamilton, Hawkins, Henierson, Horton, Jones, Keiiion, by.which a majority of all the nmembers el(ct IionKruwooc Lai'h Loudon qanor Masou Moihead slionid constitute a quorum, and that such majori ty Monris, McCloud, Nash, Pe. k. Sawyeir, cott of Harrin ii, ouly, coaM:euaet laws, and that; upon.,the question Snuth of Highand Siith of Warren Stanton, Stelbios, Stil luwell, Swift and Wiltiams -92.'' tbc -g.cn b- yeas and nays. That was a very alo- wa toaryv.Ttasure, and would prevent a repetition of the Si, the fifth amendment- of the Committee of tlhe inconsi,ierate, hastv mainner, in which-the laws had Whole to the 4t1h section was agreed to. been kitherto: enacted:. -Anothei'r cause' of complaint The question then being, (ont ag'reeing to the sixth had been, that all the officers were elected by the Le- amendruont to section 4-,o wit: g:islaiire, instead of by thepoople. That was a ver Strike out all, after the word "years," where it fruitful sonrc e of wtime ant money. The first, occuis in the sectiion the same was agreed to people had:coniplaitied of it,; they had actually been The question then bein'i, on a greeing to the seventh burtliened an(] cursed with it, and seeing (as they now amentimient to section 4 —o wit: did) the effect of:it, they seek to remedy the evil. After the word "respectively" in the fourth sectioin, The P~,poirt of the Committee amply provided for that insert the words "on the second. Tuesday of October," object", bv propoinga to transfe~r the election of all the same was agreed to. officer.q from the Legislature to the.people;' a measur,e The question then being, on agreeinig to the ~ighthn he beli,ved which woull be acceptable to all. There amend ment-to wit: were ots0 r other extraneous matters, which had been Strike out the word "chosen" where it occ.urs in throwni aiongn, them as boue of contention for the re- section 4, and insert the word "elected," the samne was imoval (if waich the'Report of the Committee l,rovided. agreed to. Seeiii therefore that the caus cs of mC0:7nplaint were Sec. 4, as amended reads a,s follows: abtiut being' removed,' he wab in favor of holding' oii "Sec. 4. Senators shall.be elected bieniallv, by 'to'he aimual;.ae~sion a, a a syrtem under which the the electors in each senatorial district,, on the second poeople I id hitherto priispered- notwithsatading the, Tuesday of October. Their term of office shall be inaiiy abuses which had,tore timeto~time, crept i ito two years." it.' BUt he was,opposed to accediug to the propost- The question then being, on agreeing to the iiiiith tion of extetidicig t',e term for whic asen-ator soucl amencineat-to wit: b~e'elect'ed, t four years. He eonsidt.-red that, propo- Stirike out all after the word "Representative," in sitioii 1 ieplete with evil. No gentleman.hiavi no' a section 5, which was agreed to, aud the sectioii as '"rope t't.~q1 busines.% Which circumstances compelled amended reads as follows: limt citi entrut to the care of aniother,:would agree that "Sec. 5. The qualifications fo~r a Senator shall be Isis ageilt should' not be called upon to rende'r a true the same as for a Representative." and fat,7hf'il accoiunt, before the termination of so long The question then beiiig on agreeing to the tenth a period.'The, great resources (of Ohio were now onily amendment —to wit: bein d vehped.Whe thy lokedabiut tem,aud Sec. 6. Strike out the words "two-thirds" and insaw the' new sources of wealth; the.daily opening sert the words "a maiority of all the inenibers elected," 'ehanuels of~enterprise.;"the rapid progress'-of~improve- which was agreed to. "4 wi, O-IO0 CONVENTION DEBATES-F-IDAY, DEC:MBFR 20. The qiestion then being on agreeingto the fifteenith ameni-idment, to wit: SEc. 10. Strike out the words "dissent from and," it wa s ag ree d to. The q uestion t h e n being toareeint the sixteenth arnenidmiient, to wit: SEC. 10. After the word "resolution," inse rt ther word'"thereof," which was agreed to. Thle question then being on agreeing to tlhe seventeecnth aimendment, to-wit: SEc. 10. After tlle word "protest," insert the words "and reasons therefor,"' which was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the eithteentf ame ndment, to wit: SEc. 10. Strike out the words "two me mbers," and insert the words "on e membe r." The same was agreed to, and the section, as amended, reads as follows: "SEc. 10. Any one member of either Houe, shall have the right to protest againist ary act or lesolution thereof, and such protest, and reasonis therefor, shall be entered upon',he, Journial." The question then being on agreeing to the ninel teeiith arnen drneit, to-wit,: SEC. 11. Strikel out the words "as soon as possible," which was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the twentieth amendment, to-wit: SEC 11. Sri'lke out the word "an" before the word "election," which was agreed to, and the section, as armended, reads as follows: " SEc. 11. All vacan-cies which rnay happeni in either house shall be filled by election, and the Governor shall issue the necessary writs of election according to law." The quekstion then being on agreeing to the twentyfirst amyienidm-ent, to-wit: SEc. 13. Strike out the words "a majority of," which was agreed to: The question then being on agreeing to the twentysecond am-nendmenit, to-wit: SEC. 13. Strike out the words "at all times," it was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the twentythird amendment, to-wit: SEC. 13. Strike out the words "such" and "as," and in,sert in lieu of tle word "as" the word "which." The same was agreed to, and the section, as anmenided, reads as follows: "SEC. 13. The proceedings of both houses shall be public, except in cases, which in the opinioin of wo thirds of those present, requiire secrecy." The question then hbiing on agreeing to the twenty,imrth amendmenit, to-wit SEc. 14. After the word "days," insert the words 'Sundays exclusive." The samne was qagreed to, and the section, as amend d, reads as follows: " SEc. 14. Neither house shall, without the con ent of the other, adjourn for more than two day, tundays exclusive, nor to any other place than that n whi'ch the two houses shall be in session." The question then being on agreeinig to the twenty ftlh amendment, to-wit: SEC. 15. Strike out all after the word "other,' to he end of the section. The same was agreed to, anld the section, as amend d, reads as follows: " SEC. 15. Bills may originate in either house, bult may be altered, ranended, or rejected in the other."' The3 qulestionl thenl being on agreeing to the tw enty, ixth am~endmenet, to-wit: Srea. 16. After the wrord "be," (where it follows the rtords "'and no law shall,"J) strike out to the end of the 1'he qulle>tion tlhn being, on agreeing to the elevent at nwt anmndmento wit: Sec. 6. S-,like out the words "be authorized to," thel sa-: vai agrteed to, and the section as amended read- as follows: "lsc. 6. Each House shall be the judge of the elections returns, and qtalifi,;attoii of its members A majority of all the members elected of each House, shall he a quorum to do busine.ss, b-,; a sma!ler Dumber imiay adjourni fr-m day to day, and to compel the attentdance of absent members, in suI;h man ner atnd u rder such penlalties, as may be prescribedt Thb qu esi on then- being, on a,groing to the twelfth a, nudellnaet-to wsit:~ S c. S. S-rik'e )uta the word "questiorn"' and insert the word " vote," which was agreed to." Tlheqlluestionll then being, on agreeilig to the thirteenth aene-dinteiit-to wit: Se. i. After the word "law" insert "or resoluti n d-esiglcd- to have the force of law; or wherebv money mlay be drawn fron the Treasury,"' which wats ag,,reeCkd to. Mr. G-EEN (of Ross) inquired of the President, if lie consi.Aed the amelndlretit as agreed to; and on be,intg an,i sw- erd in tie aflirinat,ve, mnoved "that it be d re-conidcr:." His reasons for adopting that cour se was, that they lPad already provided that no money shfluid be paidl ou, unlitess authorized by law; wherea. tie alendtnint ow undert considerationi, would have the p-arniiciou- tendency of allowing) the Legislatoire to appropriate the moneys of the State; if the oI:cIir,e('-Ite *3f a muajority could be obtaiied.c 3M4. B3AR.11NET, (of 1'reble,) was desirous that the amdrncdent sliould be reconisidered, iii order to make it cl-ar that the money should onlly be drawn from the Treasury by law, aind tot by resolution. The question theo beti-g, oi re-considering the vote T taketi ont the adoptioni of the thirteenth amendmeneIt, ait was agreed to. The qies-tion then being, on agreeing to the amend- Vir. MASON then moved to amend the amend- mlnt of tihec Comminittee ofth(-e Whole, by striking out all afterthe word "or," anid inserting in lieu thereof, the fti. w:d,wjdl"joint resolutioni of both Hous- t es," which was agreed( to. I'lie qu. -;tiot th-e being, o agreeing to the amend- i iMiiit a a-ni de-edt, Mr. V11TLC'IELL said, that he was of the opinion e that t secti,n us or ginally reported would be better tia}1 t o ito oora p e ant amendinetinet on it. It was true the reptort of ihe Fiitance Coititiittee had obviated the t diffict-ty, aiid he felt that there w —as dang(eT of misCo,ltstrluinr thatb anei-tidment, an,d for that reason, lie f thtouigght that tite report should stand as it was. It nlight emiarrass the Legislature if it was necessary " t, lave n wo o tl irr, Iis of all the members elected to ap.pc-)pi-ate smrall soirts of ilonrey, and great injury e iig-ht acise to the public iiterests. The aencdmenit as amended was disagreed to. s The section as amended reads as follows: S 11,'s, —. 8. Each House shall keep a correct Jouina~l of its proceedi tgs. and take efticieit menies to publish lthe same; the yeys an ys shall, at the desire of ai,y two rmembers, i eithr House, the vote shall be taken by yeas and says, , eentered up01o) the Jiurnal, and no law shall be passed ti w-i'thoutt a conculrrenlce of a majority of all the mnerber~ elected to each House." ed TIter question theo being on agreeing to the fourteeuth amendment, to-wit: m S:c. 10}. Afer tisoe word "resolution," strike out the foillowing worils, "which they may think injurious! si to the public or aity individual," which was agreedl " to. wod "adn a hl,)srk u oteedo h 150 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DF,Cl,MBER 21. "Se.c. 24. The Governor and all civil officers under this S tate, ha 1 be liable to impeachliient for any oisdemeanoi in office, but judgment, ill stch cand t se asall aeot eliten d lurthner than removal fromn office, and di-squalifi(;atll,,,, to told any office of trust, hionor or profit, unider th.e autl,.(ority of' thisi State. The party, wvhetthei c,,tnvict,,d or no',, ~-k I neer~the,less be liable to indictment, trial and juie,,according to law" The question then be'ig on the adoption of the thirtty-foutrth amendiient- t o wit,,. "SI1c. 25. At the tied o f the section, inaert the word ,biennially."'" Mr. REEMNELTN moved a call of the Convention, and being ordered, iMes-srs. Cutler, Ewling, Hitchcockof'Cuyahioga, Hitchicockc of G,-aug-a, Lawrenice, La,will, Or-toni, Otis, Satanbery,. Sticktiey, Swa.,n, Thom-ipson of Shelby, Vance of Chiamipaignl, aiid Way were: fouind absent. On mo(-tioni of Mr. SAWYER, all furthicr7 F-roceedinigs. under the call w,ere dis,penised with., The question thien being on agreeing~ to thre thiirtyfourth amendment, (before recited,) Mr. REEMELIN moved to amnend the ameicndm-ent-, by inserting after the word "bienniiially" the followins, words, "and the first sessioni uinder thqis C~situtiol", sball be on the first Monday o~f Janttuary, 1852." The amienidmient to the amendment(, wat agre~ed to). The q uestioni th~en being on agret-einig to'. he thirtyvfourth amreidndenit of the Commitintee of the Whole,.aamended,, On mnotioni of Mr. HAWKINS, the Con-;veniti,onajourned. !seti~on, and insert, "revised or amended by reference' to its title only, but in revising or amending an act, the new act snall contain the, entire act revised, or the oction or sections amended, and the section or sec tions of the act amended, shall be entirely repealed. The samtne was agreed to, and the section, as amenid ~ed, reads as follows: "Sr. c1. Every bill shall be fully and distinctly read on three different da.ys, unless in case of urgency, three-fourths of the House, in which the question shall be pending, shall deen it expedient to dispense with this rule, and every bill shall contain but one act, embrace but one object, which shall be cleaIl y expressed in its title, and no law shall be re vived or amended by reference to its title only, but in revi wing os- auseasling an acl, the new act shall contain the entire act revivea, or the section or sections, amended; and the sec tion or sections amended, shall be entirely repealed." The question then being on agreeing to the twenty seventh amendment, to-wit0,, That Sec. 18 be stricken out,n It was agreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the twenty-eighth amendment, to-wit: S-c,. 19. Ini t-he fzfth line strike out al after the word "eleated"." Mr. RPEEEMELIT said that he was well aware that the Legislature would not have much power after the Convention had finished its labors; still, he could easily imiagie, that there were offices wact. they could create. The people complained bilterly of Legislators appointing themselves to lucrative tsauatloies, as had occurred is the Penitentiary, Lunatic, Asylum, and other public departments. Mr. MASON understood that the section had been struck out in Cousmittee of the Whole, on the ground o-f its being a violation of the Constitution. The amendment was agtrca to, and the section or-ered to he stricken out. The questioni thlen- being'GU the adoption of the thirtieth aw-endmrent,, to-wit: "~T.hat Seetian 21 be stricken out;" t~he same was a,g,,reed to. T.The quiiestion then being on the adoption of the thirEy-.first ainendment-to wit: "1Sw. 22. After the word're-ceived' (where it, occurs &second tim~.e) insert the word'respectively.'", The same was a_greed to., and the section as amended r-eads3 as follo)ws:, ,'s ". e1 Ana accurate and detailed statweiacil f toie receipts and expenditures of the public meiney, and of the names of the personi who shall have received the sam,,e, t nd the amount they shall have received respectively, shall annually be pubEisbed.*' The qusiathen being on the adoption of tlle Se.2.Add to the end of the section thes-e word-.,'The ,ee-ral Assembly shall provide by law for the remov al of JustIices of the Peace, and county and township officers, in ,such manine,' and for such caulse, as Lo thiemi shall deemi just and proper'" The same was agreed to, and the section as amended roads as fellows'. OnmtojfM.HWIS,teCnet'o ",Sac.,0_.1 The Vtouse of Representatives shialt have the'sole pow,er o-f impgachment, but a majo, ity of all the Represenrtatives must coec,ur in the iapeachment. All impeachmer ts !halb be tried by the Senate, and when sitting for that purpose, the Senators shall be upon oath or affiriiatioii to do justice according to l[aw sad evidence. NIo per son shall bemettowt convictted w~ithout the concurrence of two-thirds of the Sena- Atteedoseto2,adthwodbenily' tori. Thie General Assembly shall provide by law for the removal of Justices of the Peace, and county and township M.HWIS r rstes:I eei el officers, isa such manner and for such cause, as to them shallaygodraoifrcniunteaanaso in~ seem just and proper." teGnrl~cnrn~e .thirty-third ameudmesnt —to wit:qenupntespotoanml05011len "Sac. 9.. After the word'profit' insert the wordscotnutohvthii Bu,iitsodbshw "under the authority of the State."' "fo atepreae httepol aentra ed rends as follows: urd hi,ltu aeacaie SIXTY-NINTH DAY. SATURDAY, Dec. 21, 1850-9 A.MA-. The Conventio)n me pusanlt to adjourmet Prayer by the Rev. Mr. SE~.~.s TniMr. LAftWiLL, who was absent fromi~disposition on yesterday at the time of the call of the House, 'now asked and obtained excuse for such abnence. Mr. HAWKINS presented the petitim-: of Williani Monttgomiery and 160 others, citizens ()f Oiio, print, Mr. HOLMES presented the petition of T'h1os. Johnson and 109 others, citizens of Hamilton cou nty askthat a provision be engrafted into the new Constitu. tion, taxing all property iii the State equally and ;Vhicih petitions were, severally referred to:;Lira Odin1mnittee on )finance and TIaxation. Mr. MASON presented the petition of J. H. Reynolds and 150 others, citizens of Clark county, prayin,wta that a clause be inserted in the new Cot-:stitution prohibiting thie Legislature him passing an!'y law iegalizing, the traffic in spirituous iquItors. Which, upon his motion, was referred to the Coinaeaitteeo -itupon the subject of retailig ardent 5pirits. BIIFNNAL -SESSIONs. On motf,ion of Mr. HAWKINS, the Covn,lnnow resumed the cousiuerationi of htie ameniiiients to the report of the Comnmittee on tho LEGISLATIVE D)EPAwrTurIT. The question being on upon adireeing to tahe 34th. a me ndme nt, to t pnit: At the end of section 25, add the word "bien niallv;TM Mr. HAWKINS. Mr. Presidtent: If ticere isr'!v any good reasoni for continuing theO annuialss.in. the General Ass,em b y;i f th pople can realize, I,, c,uent upon the support of anniua ol ses,,s lel;.n. con~tinue to have them. But., if it sboul]d be show, from past experience, that the people have not r-eal ze nthing like an equi valent for thbe expenses ii: urred, then, let us have a chan~ige. I I 151 OHIO CONVENTION'DEBATES:SA'T"'U[AY,'DFdE:'SEi'21'. thousand: were drawn in'pursuance of specific appro-: piriations. Bt ARCb rBOLD. Les s tthan that. n Mr. HAWKINS The report givenit a little risi ng of $300,000 t do ndt mention this in toi i way of approButwi Very farespe to i c iit.;. re n dImentiof i t to s -ow that thi s ha s been pae asthe debt inotwithstae,ding atll th, di is claimn(,-t' for annual sess,iois'-of:-the, egsature;,aiid that a change to biennial-,sessie,ns nieed not nece'ssaril-r make it a,n~y.worse.'I Wish to' see tlhis mjatter -remiecied.; and I will go heartily -Withbmy friend frolm ~Toin ro.e for correcting thiis thing.:'...i Ihave'before rem-arked, that 6prpitions for, re,-; pairs on; thie',-vublie'Work.,,"cannot be ~estim4ated~ in adz vance, W i t ayegreeo. certainty. Thiese etmt, being wholly con.jeetural —dep-ending upon umforeseen~ conitingeneies —it is:mani-fest thiat'ou caiin mak-C an~ estimate for the second ye,,.r W i, jt[''bu t e s ame degree of certainty, t hat' you can~ ma,ke;a-n estimate, for the~ first-. -i ear; anid if. you cannot tfell foyr on~e year in advance..ib what amiounti, of;aprlo~priation woutl' benecessary to repair dama"es bv.i'o( and: freshet,. the', saone objec(tio'n'With regard terths item -of al?propi'iation wili,h,ihhs beeni raised aga.-inst; biennial sessi()ns; must also apply to,'annu a! Sessions/ I hop~e, howeV._ e-r, that~we,sball'b,al.after:a'wh-ile, to return t:O that ~kind of govaNernmient so Imucli desire d by tle gen tleeianifromx Monroe, (,Mr. AP.Cnr, o-')-a' ~gov-ernm),enlt: merely for the prptrose'Iof lres~ervhig pubic'1 orcdere: and then, m~.not till then. shal~l We be able. to avoid,} all th e diffic-ulIties of this charmeter, which now~ pre, sent them-selves on every sid.~l. It was onie of the str~ongest reasons of'the,re)'tle man fromn- Hlarnilton, in- fa-vor of'.n~a ses-soials, th a~t te -people by, this, means woiild'be eorrectlv i-n'form'ledi of the 6on di1tion of public affadirs/and eseiyof' th e di sbursemnent of.tbm public money Baut fie, did U;ot pro:' ceed to show; that by' meanis of' te egsature assdemblinig a,t.Colunaibus, o)ne; a year, an Iiem i'iik th'ere'l for thre~e miont-hs., t~he people hiad heretofore' been furnished with,. a correct and iixtc-ligLibe account of'ithe:' disbursemients'of tlie pbiCee -' Thlis-,h~wev~er,. was -precisely:, wvbat lie shoulId haedoiu, in re-'der to~" have giv-en ~:ight' t' 1is arguinent;, but thxis,'iape hend; was'pre'ciselv what: Ii6 co.ui'nO}t do. Anid:ow,' MNr.'Presid~enlt; wifih'('mut de.-ini'ng toim rach the initegri ty oTr the w~isdora of, our r'et-'2 ~satures, I affirm, thiat, for the:last fifteen; years,.-,ae. have not, -had a single Legislative rar'ct,ec,tt-ailing anyfith glikn~lIe-full and comeplecteD i~iffrination upon this,~ subject.'... Mr. R.EE3ELIN desired to mfeiitio:n the'first roes,sag~e of Gov. Seabury Ford. as' the mot enree. sive,, correct an'd~ S5atisfatory ~statemient of tbhe eo,ndi.tion of the puLblic d,ebt., wncahad-'eveTr before eman: ated fi'oit- th-e, executive of.the S"ta-te. - M~r. HAWKINS. Upon that statem-ent he was: re-.; pared to take-iss,-ue'wit-h'the-gentleiiari. A s mu, as; lie esteemed Governor Ford; as nmekLic: eonif-den-ceas he:a ~ tevrt and- iyteltigene-e o~f that,. gentleman, he' *as co-ns-trained- to say, that the mratter-. of the mnessage referred to w as not, ony ii.colreet,' but it was well.calculat~ed todeceive t,e publib minld. He repeated. that he had -ne-ver seen the report., and~ "f~The people of Othio are a calculating people. Wheniever any proposition is submitted to them, they inquire into it; and the query, Will it pay? is apt to be suggested to their minds. And with respect to ainual sessions of the Legislature, they have been investigAting that sul)ject in these two questions: Are they necessary? Do we realize in any shape, an equivalent f)r the expenditure incurred in iiiainitaiinii j them? But, befo-re lookini particular~ly into these question,s, let us notice sonie of the remartks of the gentleman f/rom Hamilton (Mr. REaEMELIn). That gentleman has charged it upon us, that the'advocates of biennial seossions, are taking alstep' backward froni the true r e publicain groItiud I wouId like to know by what rule tieat genilemaii has fixed uponi what is true republican ground? and by what authority lie has marked out A'd legally defined its limits?- c For my part, I am very. much attached to republictnisin; -and, if. it'is true that we are abont to abandon this great old democratic ground, I want to know it,,y idea, of republicanism is, something like this: that it..requires the representative of the people, to obey tihe dictates and decisionsof public sentiment. I c seobsider ita very essenitial poitit in the republican doea trine, that the'will and wish of the people with reference to all niatters connected with their own interests, 'should always be strictly. regarded; and I consider that the deterininatious of an iiiteiligent coustitueticy should be obligatory upon us here, unless they shouldmt iappen to requiresornething of us which would contravenie the par, mount authority of our oaths, and cu allegiance to' the Federal Constitution. I cannot even: inaginie the possibility of the existence of a #species of republicanism that would thwart, and deny, ni disregard the w ofthe people. t p :-But, with respect' to thiis-public,.senuti~ment requiring the establishment of biennial sessions of the Legisl'atare, the gentlematiifrom, Hainiltoni has charged it nlpoi us as "a home made seutiment, manufactured by honorable gentlemen here before they left their ]i~;n~esz" There is one, thing, at least, connected withd ,hl'~'-[ charge, about which' I eanuot be displeased, and that is, that there is,nothing. of flattery iii it. it does, no', appear to me to be very complimentary to gentlcnien who happen to differ with biu ini opinion upon this' question; nor do I think it very complimentary to: ssnie of the distingutiished colleagues of the gentlemnin from Hamilton. I think it was rather a harsh charge, and hardly fair, or even generous for him to say, inot only, that.this public sentiment was manuufa.tured by gentlenien before they left their homes, ,b+t tlat they had since become frightened at the work of. their olwn hands,. But let that pass. ,,Anoteher objectioli- which the gentleman has to bienina'l'es.sions, i-/;.tbe~diffieulty of nimking appropria. tions of money foir the public expenses for two years in adv,atice-leaviug too, large a margin for erroneous estimates,. But let niL inquire whether this objection isi'well founded.' I-undertake to-say, that the ordinary expenses of government may be very safely estimatedgn for two years ahead. We may calculate exactly the expendittires for the. civil list, when we know the rnumber of the public 9flicers, and their salaries, and H eetdta ehdnvrse h eot n t,he number of members of: the Legislature. Butwith h i n eiv hti ol o eson na respeet to the expenditures upon the public works,itelibeadstsatrmanrtateeth these necessarily depend upon so-many unforeseenfurunrdndffytoaddolranulya contingencies, that.tie best) estimates cannot be any- porae o ear ntepbi ok,hdbe thitngmore than mere' conjectures, just as they haveprpryepde,nrcudayrprbei'dcd b~een heretofore..No specific legislative appropria-giigacmltacotoftedsrenetan tious have been made for the public works s}it htnualcftoe thremlin,frtreoforyart which was authorized by the act of 18~25.pat Bustl,teitrtojteSttdetha ury during last year,'.but a little over-three hundredmiihd Thpecetoftato,hwvrha I', 5') OHIO- CONVENTION DEBATES —ATURDAY, DEB 21. dition of the public debt and of the disburseA'ntef ofX the money of the Treasury; and to show,:al.di5tat the performance of this service, was wholly 4nGc,,mpatlble with the duties of a Legislativeoa' its tee.:. ~';. -': The gentleman from Hamnilton [Mr. Rk-~tit]'aj V spoketn of the Legislature as the very eye ofttl4,t-pekl4 pie; and perhaps that body might be so n ea m oa figure. But so far as a portion.of thl~member:, of that body were concerned, he supposed ther wa, at one time, only a few years ago a littledat!iget'r;itchell, X orris, I'a-terson, P~eck, ~:errins tluig~lcya Rlanney, lReeetnein, Roll, Scott of Auglaize,.~ellers, c tita hey Stidger,,'-truble, ~wanl, Swilft,'lThompson of Stdrk, Vance of; utler, Warren, Way, Wfilliams, WVilson,} Wvodbury and t'resident —54, N,Ys —Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of rreble, Latest Plliclrensderfer, arown of Athens, Browvn of Carro,ll, Chambers, Curry, Cutler, Gfilett, Graham, Greens of iHosF] AFTERNOON SESSION. THREE O'CLOCK, P. M. THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The qu estion being upon the adoption of the amendment, (Mr. KIRKWOOD'S,) proposing to insert the word "general," between the word "any" and the word "benefit," so that the last sentence of the sec. tion (the 39th) would read: ",Such damnages to be assessed by a j'ury and subject to no deduction for any general benefits derived to anv other property of the owner." Mr. SAWYER t hought the re had bee n q uite enough of debate upon this report, (thatof the colnmittee on the Legislative Department,) and he hoid the Con ventioni would proceed to vote upon the amendments twhich had been ma de b y oe f t he Committee of the Whole. Mr. KIRKWOOD thought there was a material dif ferenice betwaeened p eal n the word "general" and the ord "anly," in this connection. The public generally par ticipat,es in the benefits arising from the construction elf a railroad or o th er w ork of public improvement. The word general, in this c onnec tion, must me an that which is common to all citizens of the State. But there a re spec ial and particular benefits arising from the constru ction of public works-such as t,e drain a f swamp lands, &c., where particular persons are benefitted more than community in general. It must be apparent that where a person receives speciral b enefits of great value from the constr uc tion of a p ublic w or k over his land, it is no more than right that such benefits shoutld b e taken into the account in assessing the dababig e s done to a portion of his proerty I therefore h ope that th e wor d "g en eral" will de ins er ted, as 1 have indicated. The questio n being t aken on the motion to insert the word "general," the same was lost. Mr KIRKWOOD then moved to strike o ut the word s"other," b etween the word "any," and the wor d "property," in the amendment to the 39th section, so that the atme2ndmnent proposed to be added to that section, would read: "To be assessed by a jury, and subject to no deductiorn for anV benefits to be d eriv ed t o any property of thle owner." Up)on which motion, Mr. HAWKINS demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas gl, nays 24, as follows: YE,S-,-Messrs. Andrews, Blair, Barnet of Montgomery, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athencs, C.ahiil, Case of Lickintg, Clark, Cook, Farr, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hiawkin3, Holhes, Hlootimiani, Huimphreville, Hunt, Bunter, J-ones, Kirkwood, Larwill, Lee,;h, L~eadsetter, Mitchlell, McCormick, Norris, ()tis, Patterson, Perk-ins, Quigley, Ranniey, Reemella, Roll, Sawyer, Scott eof Auglalze, Sel le —s, ',tickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Thorrmpson of.Stalli, 'Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Williamiis, Wsoodburl y and President-a51. N Ys —Messrs. A rch b,ld, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Benniett, BrownL of Carroll, Chamibers, Curry, Cutler, Gillelt, Grahamii, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamiltoni, Hard, Horton, Johnson, La~rsh, Loudon, Li(ley, Morehead, McCloud, Peck, Smith of Warren arnd StatibFry-24. So the amendment was agreed to. The question then being upon agreeing to the motion of Mr. CUTLER to amend the amendment, [ande inl Commlittee of the Whole, to add the followjag( to thle end of the 39th section:'To be assessed by a jury, and subject to no deduction for any benefits d{erived to any property of the owner,] by| striking out all after the word "Jury,"l Mr. MITCHIELL demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted, yeas 28, nays 49, as follows: YEAs —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, R~ates, Benlnett, Blickensdlerfer, B~rownv of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry, Cutler, I isi OHIO CONVENTION D[';BATES-TaHURSDAY, I)F:CjMri-t 20. Ham'.i-ton, Horton, Loudon, Larsh, Morehead, Me(orricA, sion like this could have been made in 1825, two mil ~tcG~~~~~~o~:d~~~,,>;s ane, c fHrisn,mith of War Sawy'er.t - Scott of Harrnson, Sithofrar-lions of dollars would have been saved to the State, Fell andi~ a,.;bery —~4. ,Sio ate for, y 4. and to the citizens of Ohio six millions more. S o the forty-sgxth amendment was agreed to. The question being taken on Mr. AnciBonoD's arnend The q iestion then being on agreeing to the forty- ment, the same was agreed to. seventh amendment, to wit,: Mr. CURR14Y moved to further amend the amend "Se~ti~on:'9, line three, strilce out the word'first.' ment,by striking dut the words "oine-fmrth," and in M',r. GRIOESBFECK demanded the yeas and nay,-; Mrd.bG3i. o rderanded, r lthe yeas and nays;sertins in lieu thereof the words "one-third," which and being ordered, resulted yeas 37, nays 42, as fol- was agreed to. lows:waa,reto The question then being on an~reeing to Mr. WooD V ar Arctiboldl, Anidrews, B,,rnet, of Montgom- BURYv's amendment as amended, t was disagreed to. er,f llr.e t,, reble Bates, Bennett, Blicliensderfer, rsrown, or,at. he,:.~, rown, to f Carole, Bate BennettsBroon, Mr. GREGG moved to amend the report of the com,of Bro-,vBrowof uCai.roli' bainbers, Cook,ur,Cuir Gilleft, Gray. Green. of Ross. Hamilton, Harlan, hror ton, icitteeon the Legislative Department by striking out. tlunter, If~lr, mt.hville, Larsh, L,eadbetter, Loudon, Morehead, section 26 and iniserting, in lieu thereof, the following: 3tie,, loud, icnormick, Otis, Peck, Perki n s, Scott. of tarri- S, 26. No person holding any lucrative office under the son,B Smijt h i o Wrr, tanbery Strtble Swan Vane, oUited States or of this State, shall b' eligible to a seat ini NAY e-s. Bli Ci Lickine Clark, Farr, either branch of the General Assembly; provi led that town N — 5srs Bair,C h l,Cen, o f Lickingc G Ge rk, ud ship officers or officers of the Militia shall not be deemed la G..c,,m. I"eene, I"of Defiance. Grego, Groesbeck. Hard, Ha - erative offices, nor shall any officer be so excluded under this k in, /r:/ern, I-I,,)I e s, Hodim a.,-.H ut, Johnson, Jones, section unless the annual fees or compensation shall amount. e, wood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidev,Mitch - o KeNi~- sIro, iiiy any, sen inKRllL the siim of three hunctIdolas ,I,, Ngortie, Pa,tters.on, CQuigley, Rainney, Reeti-eli'n, Roll, Sawyer, P c.5t, of Auglaiz e, Sellersky, Stidger. Swift. Mr. KIRKWOOD, saw a difficulty ii) the practical ThIyio,,,,"ii, of Star, W~airen \, Wlson, Woodtbury aid'working of such a provision; of two persons holding the same office in diiffeirent parts of the State or iii So t1e amet.oIndent of the Committee of the Whole different parts of the same county, one might be eliwa~ disagr-eed to and the section as amended reads as gible to a seat in the General Assembly and the other foliows: not. Take the case of two J ustices of the Peace-the , shell:- Private al bed invio'aie, and no income of one iuighthb a little uiunIer tle sum of $3009 p-irate p~'~w.:r~y sba~l ever!'c lakcntpublic use. unler tihe and of the other a little over-the 1latter would be ex iiti all asec, fll aluded from tl:,e Legislature, the other admitted. It atletlua~e c. i:~pen:.ario; lin,oy,s a firtie ade 1o lhe on juy, and tol je. in no deduction for asy was difficult if not impossible to fix upon a specified te.s d opei-y oftihe owuer." amount of income fromn an office which should disqual Tie qCesetion then being c'n agreeing to the forty-! ify the incumbenit flom eligibility to any other (,ffiee. eighth aetidmeut, to wit: Mr. FARR. The term "lucrative oflyee" is quite ,Ad1, as the forty-first section, the following: indefinitc( it admits of too great a latitude of con 41. It shall be the duty of the presiding officer of struction and unless the term is satisfactorily explaineach ":us,-, to sign all bills and joint resolutions passed by ed or put in a more precise and definite shape, I cantlie Genie As Ietbl iiot support the proposition. Time ame wa o agreed to. Mr. SAWYER demanded a division in the motion Mtr. WOt)ODBURY moved to amend the report of of Mr. Gregg, (albove recited) and the Con the Legislative Dolartuletit, by in- ihie question then be;ng on striking out section 26, s.in i lien (of Section 20, which li'ad been stricken it was a'greed to. out, tli.f ow I 1': The question then being on agreeing to Mr. st o0 wIen any claim or demand shall be presented to GPr,,.t G's amendment. tite Gie.rfil Asstnbii t, asd ne-fourth of the members elect- Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to amend the anmeidmenteA to either,,rt:i- -hereof sall be opposed to the aclowaice by striking out all after the words "lucrative offices." of such c':,ifi,r dean-ad, the General Assembly shall theny flIr. LARSH moved to amend the words proposed ,.df",rvLr t!~re,ftcer, be prbhibited fi'om allowing the sarps but,:ion sh'al be m ade by law for the pr-osecutiion in the to be stricken out by striking out tlhe vords "fees or ((;3ult" oc sad equiity, ci all claims or demands against cocol)ensation" antd inserting in lieu thereof the word t e tate." "Sal-ary"which was disagreed to. Mr. A: Jo'I OLD moved to amend the amendment The, question then beI)., on striking out all after '"'] shit sha lltbef deco the foloamoingc the. words'lucrative offices" it was agreed to. shall be dcidedion ebtie sinie pyincipl~ The question then being on agreeing to Mr, ,lwa equity as h cOil iating between individual" GREGG'S amendment as armendecd, Mr. VOODB1,URY remarked that a legislative bocdv Mr. McCOlIMICK moeed to further amend the is the poorest tribunual in society for the investigation amendment by inserting before the words "United of cldbus. -'o testimony can betaken,and in a'great Stutos the words "authoiity of the," which was maority of ca-es the financial history of the State' agreed to. will sl'ox that the payment of claims has gone by Mr. HOLMES moved further to amend the amendfavor-no' sie equity. ment by adding the following thereto: Mr. REEMELIN sai'd he should vote against both ",or shall''y peison holding the office of Presiproposit, Mns. dent, of a Bank, Railroad or Turupike Company." 'lie great error of all propositions upon this sub- Mr. LAWRENCET moved to amend Mr. HOLrFS' iect i;, th,' the St'ae is supposed to stand im the same amendment by inserting after the word "President" 'po~etio'in ll bustness transactiotes that an iidivid- the words "C-ashier or Director" and after the word cal d.es~ Whvy, you might as well put an linfant for- "Bank" the words "or Presidont." ward in 0our to defeud its interests, as tihe State~ Which wns aaree'd to. lot"h v ilL alwayas be "plucked" in ithe absence of Mr. PERKJl~-S noved to further amend Mr. U- oLes' gruardians or porotection ini some shape. Jt is no case amedniment by' adding the following thie-reto "or any at, all —there is no poissibility of a flair trial, with the other incorporated Com-pany in this' State." Sto-te eol 0on side anid an ind~ividual oct the other. Which was agreed to. t e wit-c ill fovor of the section as originally reported M/r. CURRY moved to further amend Mr. 1toLris' b:' tico S.tandiitg Ceimmittee, which prtovided that no aimiodment by inserling after the word "Pank" the claim for money should ever be allowed, except ini ac- following "or borrower or holder of any bank bill." cordance with express provisions of law. If a provi-1 hc a iare o 18.12 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBrE,R 27. Mr. MITCHELL moved to further amend Mr. On motion, all further proceedings under the call HOL.MES' amendment by inserting before the word were dispensed with. "Railroad" the words "Director or Agent of a." Mr. SMITH of Warren presented a petition from Which was agreed to. MI. J. Hornell and one hundred and forty others, Mr. REEMELIN moved further to amend by insert- male citizens, and Sarah Jane Harlan and one bun ing the word "incorporated" before the word "bank." dred and forty others, female citizens, of Warren Which was disagreed to. county, praying that a clause be inserted in the new The question then being on agreeing to Mr. HOLMES' Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature fom pass amendment as amended. irig any law,'egalizing the traffc iii spirituous l Mr. SM[TJI, of Warren demanded the yeas and o Hors. nays, and [ieing( ordered resulted yeas 37, nays 41, as Mr HORTON presented a petition from MalInda follows: B. Holt, and two hundred and twelve others, female YEh, -rs Archbe)d Ba i Cail, C ark art, G'ee residents of Moigs countv, on the saine subjet. f/cr iar-,hteo~,.d B~ikis, Hndrso, Holmesl, Hoot-, F a r G "'e... ot 1 a Gii'.*e-,"z Ha,-d, 11 is I He)deti, 0ftolt~* Hlo,t Mr. GILLETT presented a petition frome J. lii. Bry L-iwreil. M L-krl N [,ee i, Lead(' ant and twenty-seven other:, citizens if Lw,.wrence l~Lt, (l~.y, ool,itie.Mc3)'i,ori,atcs, a ~u~ley. Raaroy, it*.e.ieme i:~ Ridd~, Ro; F Aigla'ze, county, on the same subject. e ri-kiey, Siidg,er, S~rutbe, Vaie oft Buitle, Wilsm,)I anid Mr.:NORRIS presented a petition from D. C.]B3y and forty others, citizens of Cler Iont county, il N.~ys —-Messo,'s. Anidrews~, Bar,,et of Miontgomtery, Barniett of t the same subject. Pmhh'I. tOaies 11 iietti Rtickensde~i'-r, Brow. of Athiens. Bown or Ca.r-ll C.ia,,tfe,s Ck Go,' y Ciler, Gi'ier, G-ahin, Said petitions were severally referred to the,elect Gray, G,'eeii of Ro,s, Gr Hat'ii,H ti,, larila,i, Hor-i t, committee, on the subject of retailing Ardent Spirits. Hiuut, itauntcr, os Keiinoi,. Ki kwood,!.arsh, Morehead, Mr. SAWYER offered for adoption,he fo1 l~: Cioudt,is, Pieck, Po-,kini, Sawyer, Scott of Harrisoii, Smitr Qf WarreR. S a,,Iery, Swan,,vilt, Vaco Chiaiapaigii, Wa r tea, Way, Wii~ams and Woodbui —41. Resolved, That no member be allowed f-o sieik or ,otateditwsdaetoany one question. before the Conventien, or m the 1n theamedmnt abComdittee of the Whole, longer tliaii fiftee'i min The qluestion their being on agreeing to Mr. GaL utes amendt, ent. Mr. PEIRICIS moved to strike out all after the lr SAkWYER said he did not intend to m-: ny ~vord "beldin''and insert in lieu thereof the follow- remarks on the resolution. He laid it before thl .ig: "Any oflic,er under the authority of the United Convention, a,d members could act n it as' " ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~.Iteasedo States, shall hold a seat in either House of the Gene- - la' ral Assembly of this State." Mr. CHAMBERS moved to amend tfie reisoluti-on, Mr. SIITH, of Warren, demanded a division. by appending at the end the words "aliless oi The question then being on striking out all after leave." tlhe word "hohling'" Mr. MITCHELL, proposed to amend, by adding Mr. HOLME]S demanded t y3.a'id nay, -... the one! nf ib ammndmont "not nmoae than five. being ordered, resulted, yeas 38, }rays 40, as follows: times in one day." — ssAdrew,q. ~H.ret of ot;4o,- ery, ( Brntt of Mr. BENNETT thought the amendment of the( Br,!:e,iit. Blair, 8-owni of A'heis B:'wi ofCar gentleman from Musl ingum, (Mr. CnA-.BEs,) wou'l nutCisjaturs, C,)(-ik, Cit',-, Fa,,r Gil'~e, G Cray, be of no practical utility. o P'iii Hi iltoc~iiic Hla,faaticiton, Mr. SAWYER, thought it uninecoessary. Leave .i P F iteiti's R&nie'y, Sawvyer, Soii of uai-'ie,i'.Snitili [may be granter w- iiout its inserIici, wigero tIte CR'LS f WVarren, ifL, TlWt ipsoui of Sta-k, W,Vtliaic,s miid Wood- veritiori deems it necessary. eu,u v —" 8. Mr. LARWILL was sorry to see a prepositi(o to N.,Y -,IflHlssr,u. flicdeisdeef er, Ca hiH. C.'ark, C~i'v, Gtco_% I cu t off debate, and to prevent gentlemen from having G7~roesbeck,!tardi. [lawk-ins, Heiiderso,,), }-1olmtes, Hooelm-ani,I hi,imthieviilte /{u:1, Johnson, Joties, Keiniion, Kirkwoil, a full opportunity to deliver their views. He thought ;Lawreo w,.: -e o', ini r bod'iy.- - k'attrso~, Ctui.,Iey ~eemiin0Rididle, Roll, Sc t YHr'sn Steii d oni Harrisoilt. Discussion in this body is not so unimpoitantas 1 le Wr-sa, a Win, o aricesien-o.s oe gerntlemen suppose. WVe are engaged in a great, WB1c,'larreti, Wav, Wilsoit a,id Presidteuit-40. and important work, and a free initercha,-r,e of opiji So the tmotion to strike out was disagreed to. por e b Mion, is, of all things most desirable. IHe hoped the The quiestion thene beinz on agreeing to Mr. GIt:d'ree l,;G......1 ~.. amendmenit (above recited,)....................... oil niotica of Mr. HAWKINS, the Convention ad- Mr. HORTON said there had been a periodical presentation of resolutions of this character, ever ,roured. since the commencement of the session at Columbus. In one thing, however, this wasan improvement upon SEVENTY-THIRD DAY. its predecessors. They had always been accompani FiAIV, Dec. 27, 1850, 9 o'clock, A.M edby alecre upon the muanner in which weowe The Couvention iii(t pursuant to adjournment. nuis-speiiuiing our dRme, n,,d briigi,, g Prayer by Rev. D Rie. contempt with the people. This time, th~e lecture At threoe minutes past 9 o'clock, Mr. LARWIL, had been omitted. lie hoped the resolution would be moved a call of the Convention, which was ordered, voted dowi. For his part, he caime herc to speak his and the following gentlemen were reported absent sentiments as well as to vote them. W e have much Messrs. Barbee, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Co~lt to garn by a free expression of opinion. He w*-~ ings, Curry, Derby, Lwart, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, aw are that some gentlemen spoke quite often; but lirG~raham, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hitchcock of Cuya- was alw ays willing to listen with patience, if r'o! lioga, H-olmes, Holt, King, Manion, Mason, Mort'is, with interest. He went for free speech and for'ficee~Na-h, Ortoii, Peck, Ra,,n,.y Ri;ddle Roll. Smith of dom of action. He did not;)lead truilty; to thec charg,' Hfighlaned Smith of Wymandot, Stitwell, Taylor, that we are mis-speniding our time, and thiought fro' Thompson oif Shelby, Townshendi, Vance of Ch~am- quently as rniuch progress was made by words as b1 paign, Williams and Worthiiigton. vts On motion, Messrs. Barbee, Forbes, Hitchcock of Mr. SAWYER said his friend fi-om Medgs (Mr andSmih o Wyado wee sverllycx-Hoamor,) was a gentleman, and lie had frequent —G~yhg,adSiho ynowr eet l x had occasion to feel the quiet, smooth way in wh;-c') esd1,.. 183 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DrEC.-BER 27. lie could insinuate a reproof. He had been rapped over the knuckles by him before. He may mnake as many insintuations about my officiousness as he pleases,; still I shall continue to perform what I deem my duty. lie nmay feel very comfortable in his position he,e, because he is under no responsibility for the tim'(e spent or the result. It is otherwise with myself and those on this side of the house. If we sit here i 1 next harvest, it is us, that the people will hold responsible, and I will tell my friends that the people re already beginning to inquire, why it is that we are inOt completing the work we were sent here to perfor. hFor haimiself he had not occupied much of the i tim e of the Convention, and with the exception of tlp- time ohen the report m ade by the Committee t o ish ch h e bel onged has b e en und er discussion, thy ere oete week s in which he had not spoken. ~Ir. KIRKWOOD should vote against theresolutic,. He could see no one good effect to comne from it, ln! ner Thet be many bad. Tere wee ge ntle ne hose views at length he w ishe d to he ar, and he sp:nt uosth ere had been rath er a want of debate, than an, excess. It had been asserted that the C qnventioia hail k>rol.gh; itself into disrepute, and that it had doTe,iouhing. H e did not believe it. The chearge that courte have been derelict is untrue; ad hle wished to lr-xsx if these reports and these charges were not the echo of the allegations of members;'emselves, U lh e floor of the Convention. ]~r. HAWKINS rose to repel the charge that the Convention had wasted its time, or disgraced tsoelf. 5Ir. MITCHELL said that the charge had been n,ade aid reiterated by the venerable gentleman from Atigi,~ize (Mr. SAWYER.) And look at the first hUn: dtied pages of the report of the proceedings at Columbus, and who is it tClat appears to have spoken twice to the ounce ol any other member? It was the gentleman front Auglalize. Who was if that in June last stood up in the Convention and said that this body was wastting its tii.ne, and disgracing itselfi? It was the gentleman frc,a Auglaize, and the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HAWKINS.) They were not the men who should have se; eflo;at and published to the world this most unrighteous slander: They are slanders, and the people do ntic anld will not believethemn, and I throw them back ug: po, upou the lheads of their authors. I see no occasio: to adopt this rule. Thedebates of this body, if they hauve een,tistinxguished for anything, it is for their brevity and pertinency, and I appeal to the gentleman front Auglaize himself if there has been any more time spent upon this report than has been necessary? M;'. SAWYER said he did not want the gentleman fromn Kniox to appeal to hin, after having treated him in tke way lie had. The question being on the amendment, the same was fitsagreed to. The question then being on-the adoption of the resolt1ution1: 5'r. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 34, nays 46, as foilows: toJn, Struble. Thompson of Stark, Va~ice of Butler, Way and Williams-46. So the resolution was disagreed to. Tile PRESIDENT laid before the Convention a communication from Dr. Daniel Drake, asking the use oftile Hall for to-morrow evening for the purpose of delivering a narrative discourse on tile condition of the slaves of th e S outh. Mr. SAWYER movedthha t leave be granted. Mr. GROESBECK thought tlhae surrender of the Hal l to aaiy person and for ab y pur pose w ould be to establish a bad precedent. Ie would as soon give it to Dr. Drake as to any other person, and tle relatio n ine wh ich he stood to th at venerable gentleman, af d isia friends would acquit him of aey charge of unkiednbess t o him or want of sympathy with his ol,inions,. Bliut he thought that if the business of allowing the H.lIl to he occupid wsed by lec turers were one entered upo n, th e applications would be e ndless. Mr. HeU,M,PHREVILLE doubted whether the Cofivention- lrad any right to let out the Hall to be occupied for such a purpose. ; Mr. SAWYER said tile atbjectof th e e lecture wa s one of inter e st a n d importance not only to the people of Ohio, but to the Union, and coming fromn such a fsource w ould be worthy theo i a teintion of every member 'of tile convention. He should like to hear it.'As should not, as a neces sary consequence, be oblipoo ed to grandt te fthe use of the Hall to every applicaint. e thi,ought the subject a proper subject, the mal a proper man and the occasion a proper occasion. The Doctor was as he believed, a Coloniizatioijist, and agreeing with him as he did, he was anxious to hear an expressran of hlis views, and to give bin) an opportunity to be heayd. Mr. STANTON. Will the gentleman agree to voto toallow the Hall to a speaker upon the other side? Mr. SAW YER. Certainly I will. Mr. ARCHBOLD would like to hear the lecture,but thought the light of thie Convention to vrait the use of the Hall to be doubtful. The question being on the,-doption of the resolution, the same was disagreed to; on ddivision; ayes 38, nloes 40. THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTME'bT. Mr MITCHELL nmoved that the Convention take up the report of the Standing Committee oln -he Legis lative Department; which was agreed to. The question was upon the second division of the, amendment of Mr. GREGG-to insert in the place o. Section 26 which had been, under the first division of said motion, stricken out, the following words: SEc. 26. No person holding any lucrative office under the authority of the United States, or of this State, shall be eligible to a seat in either branch of the General Assesnbly; pro. vided, that township officers or officers of the Militia sh-,ll ~nG' be deemed Ilucrative offices. Mr. BENNETT moved to amend the amendment, by striking out all after the word "no" in the first ine, and inserting in lieu thereof the following: "Judge of any court of law or equit:; Secretar), Treasuer or Auditor of State, Attorney General, Register, Cletk of any court of record, Sheriff, collector of public moleys; Auditor, Treasurer, or Recorder of a county, member of the Board of Public Works, Fund Commnission er, Engineer or Superintendent in the service of the State; orperson holding civil o,Bce untier the authority of the United States, shall be eligible to a seat. in the General Assembly."' Mr. BENNETT said his object in offering the amendment was to define with certainty in the e:astitution what those offices were which would be adisqualification. There had been, during past years a differeince of opinion in regard to the construction ofthe term "lucrative office" in the present constiitaion YE,-s —5lessrs. Bennett, Blair, Case of Licking, Chambers, ,Clark., Curry, Farr, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, iawklins, Holanes, Johnson, Kennon, Lidey, Loudon, McClo,d, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Sawyer, Scott of Harrisoy., Scott of Auglaize, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Swan, Sw;f, WNVarren, Wilson, Woodbury and President-34. A,Ys Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of Montgomrery Barnett o f Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of A thens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill Cook, Cutler, Gray, Green of Rcss, Groesbeck, Hamilton. Harlan, Henderson, Hoot. mar, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, Kirk. woo. d, Laorsh. Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Mitch. ell, Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Norris, Quigley, Ranhey, Reerelin, Roll, Sellers, Smith (f Warren, Stanbtry, Stan. 1'84 OHIO CO()NVENTION DEBATES FRIDAY, DECEMBER 27. I f lucrative offices are such as from which a profit is derived, the question aiises as to the amount of the emolun,ent. That sumrn which m y be a profit in one place may not be so in another. On the other hand if it is to comprehend all offices for the discharge of the duties of which pay is received another' rule of construction would prevail. He thought it better to define by name what 9offices should be a disqualificationt. Mr. c HUMPHREVILLE ha d a suggestion to make. The business of elaborating this report in Conventiont is laborious to the officers of the body, and comnplicated and difficult to its members, by the interposition of the rule,s that apply to sessions in Convention. He thought another course might be taken that would save time, and better suit with the views of members. He therefore mnoved that the report and amendments be committed to the Committee of the Whole. Mr. SMiTHI of Warren would prefer to have the report recommitted to the standing committee o wo, the legislative department. For the purpose of making such a motion, he should vote against the one now pending. Sir. CHAMBERS was opposed to any recommitment. The question being on a recommitment of the report and amendments to the Comitmiittee of the Whole, the sane was disagreed to on division. Yeas 26, nays not counted. The question then being on agreeing to the amendment of Mr. Bennett; Mr. LARWILL demanded a division of the question. The question then being on striking out all after the word "No," in the substitute of Mr. Gregg, Mr. REEMELIN said he should vote to strike out, for the reason tO at he thought the substitute of the gentlernain from Columbiana (Mr. GREGG) to be ambiguous. He intended whet itt should be in order to offer an anlendment that woulit meet his views and perhaps those of other gentlemen. It provided to exclude all officers of the United States, and such State officers as received from their offices over one hundred dollars per annum. qt'hat was what hie desired to arrive at. Iln his amendment hlie had adopted the views of the gentleman fron Clark, [Mr. VlASON,] as expressed in a report made toy him on a certain occasion in the General Assembly, and by him cited from some other learned authority. Mr. Reemelin read the amendment for informationi as follows: No person holding any office oatder the authority of the United States or any office untlder the authortyvof this State, to which by law any salary, fee or emolumentit whatever isatticled, shall be capable of being a candidate to have a seat in the General Assemti,ly; provided that Justices of the Peace, township and mnilitia officers and officers temporarily appointed by the courts shall not be deemed as coming within the provisions of this section. Mr. HIUMPHREVILLE moved to amend the substitute of Mr. GREGG, by adding after the words "township officers," the words "justices of the peace, notaries public;" which was agreed to. Mr. 1.,KRWTLL_ rmoved farther to arm,~nd ~aid substitute, by additg the words. "president, cashier, or officer of any hank of issue." The PRESIDENT. The amendment must come in in another place. M~r. LARWILL withdrew his amendment. Mr. HO3LMERS said he was anlxious to exclude the class of persons mentioned in the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. LARWtLL.) He wished he had been more precise in offering it. He thought those persons ought not to have seats ill the le gis lative bodies of the country. He had an amendment which lie proposed to read, which was as follows: "No president, director, or caslo.er of aiv banki_.g company in this State, no president or director of any railroad company, shall b e eligible to the office of Governor, Senator or Re~presenitative, so long as he s hall be such president, di rector or cashier nor until tile lapse of twelve months from the time at whice L he sha,ill have ceased to be such president, director or cashier. No money broker, minist er of the Gospel, or teacher of any religious sect; no per so n holdinig any office under the authority of the United States, or under this Constitution, shall be eligible to a seat in the General Assembly of this State." He hoped that some such principle would be adopted, or at least a portion of it. One State in the Union — Florida-had excluded from the Legislature the presideriis and directors of banks. The question being on striking out all after the word "No," in the amendment of Mr GREGG, Mr. SAWYER-demanded the ayes and noes, which were ordered, and resulted-ayes 29, noes 46, as follows: YF.AS-Messrs. Archieo'd, Bites, Beniiett, Bli,-kenisderfer, Brown of ('arro!l, Case of Lhh-kinL, C,ook, Caller, Farl, Gillett, Graham'l, G av, Gr eeni of Ross, Harlani, L,!'sh, L (.ev, I,o~lido),;Mitchell, Morehlead, Norris, Patterson, Perkins, Sf'tt of Auffaize, S.anibery, Swvatn, Swift Thomiipson ofh-lark, Warren ant Wi so:'-o9. N.&Ys-Me,s,'s. Barnet of Montgonme-y, Ba,nett of Preb'e, Brown of Alherts, Cabilii, Chambihers, C!a,'k. Cu,'ry, Gree te of Defiance, G'ezg, G,'oestheck. Harnilton. Hard, Hawkins. Hell dIersoni, Holnes, Horton. Humfiphreviyle, Huniiter, John,sonJones, Kelorl, KIrkwood, Lawreni(e, L.rwill. Leeh,. Leadb,tter. McC ostd, M~.Cormicik. Patterson,, Peck, Qniigley, Reca elin, R,)ll, Sawyer, S,'ott of fliarrisono. Seller,Y Sm,ith of Wa, ret, Stan.ton. Sticknev, Striuhle, Van-ce of Butler, Way, W-lliaiisi Woodbury and Pr-esi.ldent —G. So the motion was disagre e d to. The qPestion then being on agreeing to the substitute of Mr. GRLLGh as amended, to wit: SEC. 26. No pers on holding any lucra ti ve office une der the authority of the United States, or of this State, shall be eligible to a seat in either branch of the General Assembly; provided, that township officers, justices of the peace. notaries public, or officers of the inilitia, shall not be deemed lucrative offices: The same was agreed to, on division; ayes 48, noes not counted. Mr. HIJ MPHEREVILLE moved to amend section 35, by adding at the end the following: "Provided, That the General Assembly shall have power to repeal or revoke any charter of incorporation, and the privileges and franchises of any incorporated company, u pon such just! and equitable ters for the collection and paiymet, and the disposition of the property of such company, as thev may provide. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE said, that on examining the amendment, gentlemen would see that it had been drawn with some care. It would be observed that he had o,miitted the words "alter or amend," and he would state the reason. He thought the power given to amend or revoke to be ample for all beneficial purposes, without that to alter or amend. He had endeavored to provide against special legislatio,n, and especially such legislation in favor of corpozations. We have a provision, in the report of the committee on corporations, that there shall be no special act of incorporation, but that corporations may be created by general laws. He was desirous in this amendment, first, to assert the-repealability of charters, and secondly, to prevent opening a door for abuse, by putting in the hands of the General Assembly the power to transform an act of incorporation under a general law into a special charter, underthe pretense of an alteration or an amendment. By such means, if an unlimited power were given to 185 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DECEMBER 27. word -'company" the last time it occurs, the following: -'land the mode of ascertaining and paying such compensation as may be just on account of sucth revo cation, repeal, amendment or alteration." The question than being on the amendment to the amendment. Mr. SAWYER, demanded the seas an d nays, whic h were or dered and resulted yeas 40, navs 40 as follows: YEas-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bat s, Bennett, Blickens. derfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carrol, Case of Licking, Chambers. t'ook, Cur!y Cutler, Gil et, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Horton, HuKtei. Johnson Kennod, Larsh, Moreheadl, McCloud, Otis, Peclw, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Stan ber, Staniton, Swan, Williams and Woodbury-40. MA_Ys-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Clark, Farrt Greene of De fiance, Gregg, Hard, Henderson,,Holmes, Hootmna,) Hum phreville. Hunt, Jones, Kirlkwood, Lawrence, Leech, Lead better, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Patter son, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Au glaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Sticliney, Struble, Swift, Thomp son of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson and President. —0. So the amendment to the amendment was disagreed to. The question then being on the amendment as amen. ded. Mr. PERKINS moved to amend, by striking out all after the word "company" the first time it occurs, and inserting in lieu thereof the following: -,Upon the same terms and in the same manner as the General Assembly may condemnn and appropriate private property for public use." Mr. BLAIR demanded a division of the question. The question then being on striking out; Mr. BLAIR demanded the yeas and uays, which were ordered. The, SECRETARY was about to proceed with the call, when; At fifteen minutes before twelve, A. M. Mr. MITCItELL demanded a call'of the convention, which was ordered, and the following gentlenmen were reported absent: Messr.s. Case of Hocking, Clianey, Coilinigs, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Hitchcock of Cuyaihoga, Hitchock of Geauaa, Holt, King, M;aloUi, ,Mason. Morris, Nash, Orton, Riddle, Srmith of Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Stilwell, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Chamipaigin, and Worthington. Mr. WILLIAMS moved that the Convention take a rec,ss. . Mr. LOUDON desired to know how the Convention could take a recess, with closed doors? ?/I. GREEN said he thought they might be opened again. The motion to take a recess was disagreed to on division; a;ye.s 51, laoes 31. Mr. REEMELIN moved tkat all further proceedings under the call be dispensed with; upon which motion; Mr. BLICKENSDERFER demanded the yeas and nlays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 51 nays 31;as follows: YEAs —-Messrs. Andrewse, Archbold, Barbee, Burner of Montgomery, Barnlett of Preble, Bates, Benlnett. Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll. Cahlill, Chambers, C'larki, C~ool;, Curry, Cutler, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, Creesbeck, Hamilton, Henderson, tclnles, Horton, Hunt, Hunter, Kegwnon, Kirk woodl, Marsh, Larwill, London, Morehead, M ecClond, Norris, Otis, Pecki, Perkins, O.uigtley, Reemelin, Sawyer.'._ott of Harrison, Smith of vi arren, Stanbery9 Stanlton, S~truble, Swan, Swift, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson and President —51. l~.Ys- Messrs. Blair, Blickensderter, Case of Lickin.,,Gillett. Greene ot Defiance, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hootmana, amend, the Legislature might let in ail that we desire to keep out, additions of power might be made and cor porations grow up under the clause pro iding for their amenidme,ntt. That part of the amendment which relates to the dispositionII of corporate property is so worded, that the legislature may exercise a sound discretion, and vest the estate in tile stockholders, the corporators, the grantor, or make such other disp)osition as the justice of the case may require. There is a class of cases, where the corporate body is only trustee; as a college which holds property for the purposes of education. If it should be necessary to dissolve such a corporation, the property, should not, of course, vest in the stockholders or trustees of the college, but in some form or other revert to the grantors. The amendment also provides for the application of the property to the payment of the Gebts, which is an important proposition, as the dissolution might otherwise work great inj uy to creditors. Mr. REEiMELIN moved toamenid the amendment by inserting before the words "repeal or revoke," the words "alter, amend." The question beingon the amendment to the amendmernt: Mr. MITCHELL hoped the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. RE!MELIN) would not insist uponi his amendm - n t. Mr. KIRKWOODdid not fully understand theproposition of the genttleman from Medina, (Mr. HUMPHRpVILLE) and he could not vote upon it until he did. He wanted to vote for the principle declared in it but was afraid of ambiguity in the words. Suppose it is adopted, and afterwards the Legislature should undertake to tax banks, which had by law been previously exempt from taxation. Would it, under this section have the power to do so? He saw a difficulty that would arise from leaving out the power of amendment. If the Legislature desires to get rid of an improvident feature in a charter, it can only do so by repealing the whole. What if the Legislature should only desire to get rid of one obnoxious feature, and save the remainder? Mr. HUMPHREV1LLE. The object was to give power to repeal all or any part-to destroy the whole or to take away an obnoxious franchise. If a bank is exempt from taxation, that exemnption may be revoked, leaving all its legitimate powers untouched. But nothing can beadded. Mr. KIRKWOOD. Suppose the legislature, by a hasty act should create a charter; and it should befound that some restriction was necessary; could that restriction be effecje r? Mr. flUMPHREVILLE. It might by the repeal of what is obnoxious. Mr. KIRKWOO D hoped to hear the subject discus. sed still further. Mr. REEMELIN thought the right to alter and amend us necessary as that to repeal or revoke. Frequently an amendment may answer all the purposes that can be secured by a repeal, and may be useful in cases where otherwise a repeal would be necessary. He could not see how any one who asserted the right of repeal could object to that of emendation. He desered to place corporations upon the same ground with individuals —entitled to equal privileges, subject to the same rules. He said that remedy would be a harsh one which would destroy to get rid of an insignificant defeet. Thee amendment to the amendment was then agreed to. The questick Hhmbon thendern, ol ton Hundment as amendedN: Mar. SWAN nmoved to amend by inserting after bile ISO OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DEpCEMBER 27. Hurnphrcville, Johnson, Jones, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbet- where it first occurs, in Mr. HiUMI'PHREVILLEF'S amendctr, Lijey, Mitchell, McCormick,'atterson, Ilanney, Roll, inent (as above recited) and inserting the words "upScott,f Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, etickney,Thompson of e same terms and i the same manner as the Sterk, Warren, Williams, Woodbury and Worthinlgton-3i. Gener tal Assembly m ay co ndemn and apprpriate General As.,eiibly mycnemn and appropriate So the motion was agreed to. Oii mot.ion of Mr. Lawrence, the Convention took a prlivate property for public use." Mr. HUMPHREVILLE demanded a division of the Ieceess. rl~~~~~~~~ecess. ~question. AFrTER,OON SESiOsN. And then thle first question was upon striking out these words from Mr. H.'s amendment, to-wit: "Up 30O'CLOCr P. M. olsc A CALL OF I 3E CONVENT I P-ON. 0 such j1ust and equitable terms for the collection On Ao n of M. SITII of ren anrd payment of the debts, and the disposition of the On motion of Mr. SMITH, of Warren, which was property of such company, as they may vide., property of such company, as they'nay provide." agreed to, a call of the Convention was ordered, a he yeas and nays beig deanded and taken beinig had, the Secretary reported seventy-seven ypn thi question resultedyeas 36 nays 48-as iupon~tliis question, resulted —yeas 36, niays 48, —as members present, arnd the followiring members absent folow without leave, namely: Messrs. Archbold, Barbee. YE,s-MiAS,sss. Ani dBrews. Bch!oT,eee, BainietofMonitBarnett of Preble, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hock- goiry,ty Bltes, Beniiett, Hiickeiisderfer, iowi of'Athens, Browi ing, Chaney, Collings, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Flor- a e of Likil, C)(k Ciiy, Citler, _y, Collin(,s, Dorsey, Ew Fart, E iG. l.-'l'.tt. G ae-a Iay, G enof Ros!, G, oesi'e,. k, Hamience, Forbes, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Fa r G 1 tt G aliai, Ga, anG er of Rose, G Merle k ad Hlto.. HIani, Ir;-ton, IHulte"i Kleiioii La Ib1s, Motica!, Geauga, Holt, Kennon, Lawrence, Mlanorn, Mason, Mori, MC'iiid,Otis, ec,Peri, S S(,l ('tfHari-isoll,,Siith Morris, Nash, Orton, Perkins, Smith of Highland, ot Wa,irein, Sta,itoi, Swan aid Wlil ams-? Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stillwell, Taylor,AYs-N essis B,-ett of Puelil,i B'air Caill,Clark, Farr, Townslhead, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Cham- GrO eau e,,fD~liia!'r,(,"e, Ge~tlt-" ard, awki, Heis,,k,iaes, Hootiian, Hittiphitieville, H~iiit, Jo neasn Jojie. King, Ki,kpaign, and Worthingtorn. wood,!awrence, Lawvil, Lee(-h, L,bsdietter, Liley, Loudoll, On motion, Messrs. Coilings, Forbes, Holt, Smith Mitelell, Nor ris, Patterson-, Qigley, Raney, Reerelinii, Ridof Wyanridot, Stillwell, anrd Vance of Champaign!e,'o, Sawo er, Scott of A,i,,aize Sellers Stehins, Stik were~sevei~li, e~XCul~Sed r. y, Sti(l.er, Stru,gle, Swvift, Thopil)son (ofSark, Townsheid, were!veial~ excused. Vaince of Builer, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and Presi On motion of Mr. SMITH, of Warren, the Sergeant- dekt —8.m at-Arms was despatched for the absentees, who were So Mr. PEKIas' amenldment was lost, and the quesknown to be in the city, and the doors were closed. tion recurred upon the adoption of Mr. HuMPiHiR The Sergeant-at-Armis now returned, and reported vILLE's amendment. that he had found Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Perkinrs, Mr. WOODBURY, as a friend of the proposition, Brown of Carroll, and Barbee, and that they were desired that some gentleman who voted for the now presenrt. amendment of the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. Upon mtiotion, and for reasons rendered, special ex- REEMELIN,) inserting the words "alter, amend," after cuses were accorded to Mr. Cace of Hocking, Mlr. the word "repeal," would move a re-consideration of Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Mr. Ewart, and Mr. Mason. that voe. The Sergeant-at-Arms now again returned, and re- Mr. FARR would like to ask the gentleman from ported the presence within the bar of Mr. Archbold, Ashtabnla, (Mr. WooDAuaR,) how it was that a speMr. Kennon, and Mr. Lawrence. cial corporationl could be affected by a geueral law? The members brought in by the Sergeant were I The Legislature would have the right only to alteror aeverally excnedLgsaure wud.hv h ih ol oatro severa~lly excused. I anamend the general corporation law which would of Mr. CURRY thoug,ht the process of excsn mer Mr CIJRRY thought the process of excusing mem.g- course affect all corporations alike which had been bers, without satisfactory reasons being rendered for created under it. their a seilee h1ad been carried oil long enough. Mr. REEMELIN moved the re-consideration of the Mr. CURRY moved that all further proceeding un- vote adopting his amendmeit. der liiis call o1f the Convettioln be dis,pensed with. This miiotion being agreed to, the questiol again The yeas and nays having been demnanided and recurred upon inserting the words "alter, amend," taken upon this motion, resulted yeas 54, nays 31, as,,d before the word "or," iii Mr. HUMPIIEVILLE'S followj: amendmet. YE,s-lTe.srs. Andrews, Archbald, Barbee, Barnet of Mr. LARSH said, if he understood the clause as Monltmeriry, Barnitt of Preble, Bates, Bennett ce enn proposed t o be amended by the gentleman from Ham derfer, bruownOf Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking propose l t o be ame provisioned b y whicthe getleman frm Ham Clark, C urry Cutler, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greec of ioss, tton,it would coistitute aproision bywhichthe Gregg. =roesbeck, Hamilton HIarlan. Henderson, Holmes Legislature could alter and amend any corporation HFotori. HumrphrevilIe, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Keniioiin charter, and ind increase or diminish the value of the King, Kirikwood Ilarwill, Learbetter, Morehead Morris franchise of any Company to such an extent, as to lIcCloud, Reemeiin, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, cott raseati apim ( cl e ti as of Auglaize, Srimi.th of Warren Stanton, Stickney Struble a fford as beautiful a specimen of local Legislation as swan, Svift,'I'ownshleni, Vance of Butler Warren, Way, the State had ever et suffered. But, if he under ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~h tt a ve i But afh nde~resdm —. Wilson and t-resid,ent-54.'' stood the propositioi of the gentleman froin Medina, N Ys-aMessrs. Blair, Cahill, (Chambers, Cook, Farr,Greene (Mr. HuMIP-IRTv:ILLE,) it was that the General Assemof iDefiance, HIard, Diawkins, Hiotman, Jones, Larsh.baw. b have no power over corporations excentto rence. Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, McCormick Norris bly should ave no power over corporations exeptto Otis, atteron Peck Perkins Quig!ey, Kanney, Riddle revoke, or repeal their charters so that they would not Sellers, Stebbins, Stidger.'I'hompson of Starkli, Williams, have the same charter up before them for amendment Wilson and VWood1bury —31.** Wilson ia l pr egnde Wotd1ury 31 and modificatio', time after time. They must repeal So all further proceedings under this call of the or revoke, if they act at all ii the case, and there Con'ientiun HA ereNS daentieo ispese with.n vn to-would be an end. He should vote against the amend Mr. HAWKIN S gave notice of his intention on to- ment. m orrow, or soume s ubsequent l ay of the session, to Mr KIRKWOOD said, during the summer session cllrodoec an ameofdmen to the rulsvgltig h at Columblus, he had prepared aproviso to this seccall of the Convention. tion, whiclie would read for ineormation ThE LEGISLATIVE DEPALTMENT.-THE RAPEAI.AaiLITO coFmIe ill at the end of Sc.:5. Prorided, That the laws CHARTERS. conferriug corporate powers and pirivileges, shall not be held Lo The PRESIDENT stated the questioii be contracts'viiliii the meanilig of tlhis section." The PRES IDa NT st ated the quesword to be upon Hlis opinioli always had been, that the power to rethe mutton to strike out all after the word "company" peal, existed necessarily in the power to create a char 187 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, DPEC:-MBrR 27. ter. If he inuderstood the proviso of the gentleman from Medina, it affirmedl the existence of the power ofrepeal, and he had read his proviso merely for gen tlemen to consider whether it would not obviate a dif- ficulty by asserting that a charter is not a contract. Mr SWAN ret",-ke~l that he offered an amenidmdent in the forenoon, under the belief that the amendment proposed by the gentleman fionom Medina related to cor porations heretofore created. Upon examination of the gentleman's amendmenet, and fromr his statement, hewassatisfied that the construction of the amendment i would be that corporations hereafter created were withintf its provisions. If so, he should vote for ilt, or for the proposed substitute of thie gentleman fromn Richland. While up, he would briefly state his own views upon this question; He was in favor of a provision in the Constitution, by which all acts of corporation hereafter granted should be liable to amendment and repeal. lThat the Legislature have a right to repeal all char ters heretofore created, if they make a just adjustment of the value of thie property and losses incident to such repeal, treating it as property taken for the public use, he had no doubt. Upon this subject he concurred in the views of the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. GRoEsBEcK.) But he could not vote for a provision authlorizitg the repeal of charters heretofore granitedl, unless some provision be inserted by which a fair aud hotnest adjustment of losses rmay be recognized. As to a repeal of charters, without regard to the injury dotie thereby to the property of stockholders, it hat been said that there is a considerable number of authorities against it. It would have been more correct to have said that all courts in the United States who have had the question before them, have uniformlv decided the question against the exercise of that power. Laws repealing and amentiding charters have been declared unconstitutional, not only by the Supreme Court of the United States, but by the highest courts of the States of'New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Michigan, Kentuck y, Virginia, TI'eninessee, Alabaina, Slouth Carolina, Maryland, and others. If a single court of any State in the Union had decided otherwise, he should be glad to be interrupted and corrected. There was, he ventured to say, no decision the other ,wr. MITCHELL. Does the gentleman say that the courts have decided that the Legislature calIet amend and repeal charters of municipal corporations? Mt. SWAN. Certainly not. I am not refer izig to municipal corporations, but to private corporations, in which stockholders have invested their property. The Legislatures of these States have undertaken what some gentlemen desire us to undertake now, and he courts have met the question by determining that such laws contravened the Constitution of the United States, and were therefore void Now, with these decisions before us, It is proposed that we introduce this condemned provision into the Constitution, and for what good purpose? The power cannot be acquired over charters heretofore granted by a Constitiltional provision, u alless te oe reayit the power already exists in the Legislature. If it already exists in the Legislature, then the provision is unnecessary; and if it does not exist, then nottlig is gained by its insertion, except being met by decisions already made. The decision of our own1 highest courts upon this question can have no more effiect than that of a justice of the peace, for this question can always be taken to the Supreme Court of thed United States. Now, although, as all original question, I entertain the opinion, that as a matter of public policy and justI construction of the Constitution of the United States,! corporations should be he!d subject to legislative con-| trol, (a power, indeed, which exists in the British Par- liament,) yet independent of the impracticability of in ducii)g the Supreme Court to disturb their decisions, there is one view of this subject which has had a rL ling influence upon my nmind. While, from the Dart mnoutil College case down to the present time, and year after year, a uniform., and therefore, settled course of decis ions have b,een riad e by the Supreme Court of the Uniite( States, aLid t h e courts of our ow n a nlid sister States, that charters ar e inta ct, and, under the fait h o f these decisions a nd the belief wien property was in veste d in the m th at th e Legislat ure could not repeal them, it strikes me that if you now destrloy them with out any breach of tn heir charters, s commn m lone sty re quires th at their property lo st or i njure d by t he repea l should be paid for. It must be remembered that we are dealing not simdply with a sitngle c lass of eorporal tioecs, but all and every kiti. The aeorsle demand notvhing but wha t is right and just, ahe I would ven ture to ask any eman, no matter iwhat his politics, the question put iy tie gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr GROESBECK,] whether he would deem i t riga t to repeal the charter of a bri d ge company, a nd de stroy their pro perty without any reinuneratioin for the los s, whenlen the stockholders expended their money tinder the belief that the charter could no t be repealed, and the charter was never violated.'I'here could be no difference of opinion upon such a question. If a provision is introduced into the Conistitution which will authorize the Leginlatuie to repeal all char ters hereafter granted, (and I shiall heartily coI)cur —il suc o isi o toch a provision,) stockholders wil invest their pro perty in them, knowing the terits up on which the charter is granted, and will have no reason to complain of legislative interference. Mr. REEMELIN, on leave, withdrew his amend ment. Mr. RANNEY moved to amend the ainendadent of Mr. H-UMPIHREVILLE, by inserting, after the word "corporation," the words "now or hereafter granted." ,Ir. SWAN suggested the words, "heretofore or hereafter granted." ir. RANNEY wNrished merely to say, that lie had not perceived, till tie gentleimian from Frankiliin (Mr. SWAN) called his attention to it, that this proviso was subject to' mis interpretation. He had not supposed that any gentleman would vote foI this proviso, upon the ground that it was going to be applicable alone to future acts of incorporation. If there was any thing in the principle, it should be asserted as applica ble to existing corporations. If it were to be held, that the principle must not apply to existing corporations, he would not support it. The gentleman from Frank lin admits the decisions of the Courts to this effect, that these charters are contracts and irrepealable, have been wrong. But still the gentleman had ad vised us, that, ill settling upon what shall be the fun damental law of the land, these decisions, founided in error, should be regarded. If there was really such extraordinary strength in precedents, acknowledged to have been established in error, he would go for making a few precedents upon the right side; so that we might have a starting point, and, after a while, perhaps, be able to balance accounts with error. He did not think, however, that the Courts were going to stalnd by their decisions against this power, to the extent to which the gentleman from Frankhln supposed, nor did he think they had heretofore stood by it to that extent. H~e desired m'erely to add, that whenwe escaped from the amendmnent proposed by some gentlemana this forenoon, that we shoulId pay damages if we saws fit to revoke a charter, he had honed that this subje-.t w5as at, an end; for to connect it with a proposition !declaring the right of repeal, would be worse thanx iss CHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRDAY, P,ECi.cMBER 27. 'be the judgment of Chief Justice Marshall, or some other himgh toned f eder al ist. Nor did the length of time for wheichi a decision may have stood, give it any validity, or binding force. Ag e might give it sanctity and consideration; but, where a decision has been made contrary to the true spirit and principle of the law, a nd it m ay be shown to have been a perver sion of the se princitple it should not stand, even t hou gh the decision might have be en a thousand years. Th e famo us case called Shelly's Case, was an example of a decision overrul ed near ly two hundred years after it was made, the validit o f which was first denied by a text-writer , Lugd(in on contracts. Another exampile of this kind was the English decision in the case of Wayne against Warlters, overruled by all American court'-to the honorof our judges, be it spoken. The creditof this was chiefly due to Massachusetts. Why, then, he continued, should we show our selves unworthy of those emiinient sires? Why refu.Le to attack a decision, or even a considerable list of them, when, so palpably against the very letter of the Constitution'?.We ought to be ashamed to support such a decision. It was utterly unworthy of an Am-)er ican lawyer, who ought never to lose sight of that most exalted characteristic of his calling to preserve and defend the true and faithful administration of justice according to law. It is our duty to attack anal expose every erroneous decision, and to obtain what the spiritof the law demands, its reversal. I do not say that the judges who have followed these deci,. iqns, should be resisted in the particular case, nor that their decision should be disregarded. No sir, we should submit to their determiiination, quietly in tbhte part iular case. But sir, certainly it is ot our duty to close our moutlhs and say, that this fixes it as a bindlinii rule for all cases which may arise hereafter, No sir.)e insisted, it was our du,y to address our selves in reason to our fellow-men, and endeavor to obtain the right decision sometime or other. I think, sir, that justice and right does require of us now, that we should adopt the am endment ol the geDtlem-an from Trumbull, (Mr. RANIes.) bPcause it has in it our true nmeaning. I' want nothing that can be misunderstood. The vote upon that amendment wil be agen,,ine test. It will tell who prefers to be guided by the intention of the sages of thea rewvlution; rather than follow the political bias of the judges. Mr. KEN1NON' had been all the time, since this question had been proposed, voting against putting any clause into the Constitution, looking to the re peal of charters heretofore grante(l. He had no fear of the name of Chief Justice Marshall, or of anv body else upon a question of this kind. If he understood the proposition of the gentleman from Medina, (Mr. EV7Pl}mN vn.IIVII,) coupled,with the amendment of the gentleman from Truribuli, (Mr. RA.N:EY,) it was, that the Legislature should have the power, not only to repeal all charters of corDora tioiis which may hereafter be granted, but at the charters now in existenlice in the State —no matter to what class they iflay belong, the Legislature may make such disposit,n of their chafter as they choose. He under~stood the true question robe this; wheth erwe here, as mnembers of this Convention, should express our opinion to the effect, that the uniform de cision~s of the courts of all the. States of the Union, sulpporlted by trhe decision of the Sulpreme court of the United St.at/es, have b~een ll; wrong ins law.! He un derstood this to be the true anld real questionl,we Mwere about to decide. But the gentleman from Trumnbul], had said there had been decisions the other way that, how ever, hadl nothing tenl times over. It would be giving up the question of right. For then, just in proportion as the public had been cheated, the value of a charter to the corporators would be increased, and just in that proportion would it be desirable that the charter should berepealed. The more the public were cheated, the more it would cost theni to get out of it. He wanted no such thing. He wanted the subject to stand out without disguise. He was willing to record his vote, that the General Assembly has the power to repeal all charters, whether heretofore or hereafter granted, upon such just and equitable terms as tiheyd saw fit. Mr. MITCHELL would not now obtrude himself upon the attention of the body, but for the singularity of the proposition put forth by the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. SWAN). That proposition was, that, although the decisions of the Courts have been erroiieous, still the judge who sits upon the bench, and is sworn to administer justice according to law, should allow- such decisions to have weight with him, and affect his judgment and his conscience. Whv, sir, if a decision of our Courts were to be found erroneous and wrong, it would be no law at all. If this were not so, he, all his life, had been grossly misinformed of what the true principles of law were. If that gen-m tlemaii should feeiyn his mind, that it was probable that this construction of tile Constitution of the United States was erroneous, and, on that account, of no binding force, how could ie sit in judgment and follow an erroneous decision; a decision, procured at first, perhaps, by the instigation of bad mniotives?-at all events, procured by following out a wrong principle of c-(')struction; and how could hlie folloi a construction given ili violation of the true principle of construc tion, and against the letter of the instrument? If there was any way of recouciling such a course with a just sense of duty, he had never heard of it. Would it not be thought strange in any judge, whether inl Europe or America, to say, "I admit that this deci sion is wrong, but still I mlust follow it!" Gentlemen should remember that a decision could not make the law. It was only one out of many other evidences of what the law had been, and was of no force, even in this respect, unless it were accord nlg to law. A decision of a court never did make iaw. Even when the courts construea statute if they pervert the meaning by false glosses or unsound rules of construction,thle construction could not change the law. The question still must be, what w as the intent of the law maker in this particularcase. This being sought from the text and context aid satisfac torily ascertained, must be regarded by the judge who has, as all should have, strict reference lo his con science in every decision he makes. In this country we have never recognized any source of law-, but two, one is immemorial usage and the other the statutes of the country. Our judges were never designed to be Legislators. Far from it, no such power was conferred or designed in their creation. It was the province of the decis ion to declare what the law was before; not what it shall hereafter be. But it was a melancholy fact, that after a single decision coming from the U. S. courts, or the courts of Massachusetts, of New York, or any of the States, the whole judiciary of the country, like a flock of sheep following their leader over a hedge or a precipice, blind to the fatal consequences of their act, drive headlong after this isolated decision, regardless of its reason or propriety. After one of these decisions were made, it forthwith becomes the worst of judicial sins, to doubt the infallibility of this decision, more especially if it should chance to i tI t t c 189 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATE,-FRtDAY, [)E(,FrNt., 27. never been questioned by any one, maintalnng here the doctrine that charters were not repealable. But the gentleman had said that all these decisionsto which we refer, were wrong, and he was right: and that he would be glad to set up adverse precedents, so as to endeavor to make the scales turn the other way. But, (continued Mr. K.,) let me inform the gentleman, that it was because of the precedent which he now proposes to follo,w, that the decision to which he is opposed, was first made. It was because the Legislature repealed a charter, that these decisions were niade at all; and therefore he maN pileup prece dent upon precedent as long as hlie please;, and they will avail him nothing; because they have been al ready overruled. Mr. RANNEY, (interrupting.) Will the gentle man allow me to ask him a question? Mr. KENNON. I believe not. I am opposed to answering hard questions, (laughter.) Gentlemnen seemed to be looking fifty years or more into the future; and expecting that all these decisions will be overruled. But now I will undertake a prophecy, that you will never find in all the constructions of the Constitutioln of the United States. a single decisioncontrary to what has already taken place. Sir, you are at the wrong tribunal. This is not a question as to what the State of Ohio miay do-what we may do here, in pursuance of our own business? but the question is, whether or not, by repealing a charter heretlofore granted without condition, you do not violate the Constitution of the United States? All those decisions of whicih we have spokeni, have been upon a construction of the Constitution of the United States; and if you were engaged in the consideration of amelndments to that instrument, there would be some propriety in these ameindmentws. And now, all I have to say to the gentleman from Trumbull and his friends, is, that they will never per suade me to vote in favor of any thing to be engrafted into the new constitution, which, I know, as well as I kitow any future event, will subject our work to be decided against by the proper tribunal, as an unconsti tutional constitution. Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays upon the adoption of his amendment. Mr. KIRKWOOD. It seemis to be conceded on all hands, that good policy requires, that, with respect to all charters to be hereafter granted, the Legislature, should retain the power of alteration and repieal. But now, if this be true, it must be true, also, that good policy requires of us to re-establish the power which we seem to have lost over those chlarters already in existence, if we can. A VOIcE. "That's well put in." Mr. KIRKWOOD. Now can we? I am frank to say, I do not know. It isa matter of doubt with learned gentlemen for whose judgment I have the greatest respect. I confess that I too have lily doubts with regard to our ability to exercise this power. But we never know what we can do, till we try. And, although the same thing has been tried and failed, I am willing still to record my vote in favor of another trial. Mr. GROESBECKde sired to explain his vi ew of the question before casting his vote uponl it. He had always believed, since hie had examinled this question for himselfi-and he had endeavored to examine it impartially-that there was not a single charter in the State of Ohi,), which the Legislature ecould nlot revoke. Th3is doctrine he asserted the other day, and he explained himself in this way. I admit,, (continued Mr. G.,).that all the decisions! declare that the charter of a corporation is a contract-' and that many of the judges have taken the ground, t that you cannot touch a charter, because it is a con- i tract, asserting tha t a con t ract is inviolable. They have gone off in this direction. But I have struck out mny own path upon this question. It is this: those very judges who a ffirmi th is doctrine, in every judicial tribunal that has taken up this questio n, assn rt an other doctrine: that a char ter or franchise is proper ty. T Nhat i s the la nguage o f the Co urts. It is also the language of Blackstone, one of the oe ot e firs t text-booke Iupon the subject. He declares that i t i s property. And the Judges of the Supreme Court of the United States declare the same doebriie. I affirm their posi tion upon this subject to be just what I have stated that a charter is in the nature of property. In this wtay, then, I arrive at the conclusion, that, taccordin to the decisions themselves, a charter may be t aken. Mr. Justice Daniel, a strong n-an, appointed by President Polk, upon the Benclh of the Federal Court two years ago, as late as 1848, asserted that a charter was property; and Levi Woodbury, an eminent Judge of the same court reiterated the same doctrine. Let them call it a contract then; but, if it be property, by virtue of the right of emninenit domain, the State may take it. This is the path of reasoning by which I arrive at the conclusion, that a charter is repealable; and 1 be lieve that, not only in ourown courts, butiln the Federal Courts, and in every judicial tribunal, the repeala bility of a charter may be maintained. I claiii this now to be thle doctrine. But, if you assert this doctrine in the terms of the amendment of the gentitl-man from Medieva, you will be headed. A charter is property, as much as this college-site is property. But now, what is the rule? Whv, make the parties whole. If a corporation has lived up to the very letter and spirit of their charter-if they have not deviated a heair's width, and if you lhave no tone of complaint to utter against them; I only aslk, that, when you de clare they shall have their charter no longer, you shall jF(.,~;.~k.ti...-l.~J J LsJtl,j, i; (.;lt..J,sc; ti i.A~)'~ i }rU,tjlOtit.i U(4|,,I ld will result. If the charter has been vio)lated, the case is different. The charter is thus forfeited and you can take it by judicial proceedings and without regard to consequenices. M~r. Gi~tEGG, [itierrup tIg.) SupposIng lnOW, t1Ia this body agree to the principle of taxinig banks a cer tain per cent. upon their capital and income,-aand that under such a provision their charter should be changed or infringed upon to that extent by law,-would yvou ask for damnages i,,, sch a $-"c? Mr. GROESBEGCK. No sir; but I am ready, when ever that question shall come up, to say that 1he Legis lature had no constitutional authority to grant a char ter with such exemptions from taxation. But I wish the Convention to consider the view which I have taken. It is the view of Mr. Justice Daniel, and M"4r. Justice Wootit)ury;-as presented in a case in 6th Howard's S. C. Reports, and acquiesced in by the Federal Court. But your amendmnent is not according to the views of tbe courts. When you take away a charter, upon my plain,tlhe revocation will be affirmed by the Federal Court; but if you take it upon the other plan, you will tbe headed as often as YOU make the attempt. I make these remarks now, simply to explain my vote. I my that the Ljegislature can repeal ally charter now ,xixtirng in the State. But when you come to the amendmsenit of the gentleman from Medina, as proposed to lbe modified; gentlemen cannIot agree upon it jamongst themselves, and it is not just, in my opinion. iI shall therefore vote in favor of the present amend 190 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DEcEMBER 28. The yeas and inays being now ordered and taken YEAs-Messrs. Archhold, Barbee, Blickensderfer,'ase of upon Mr. Ranney's amendment to Mr. Humphreville',; qLicking, Cook, Curry, Gillett, Grahai, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hawtins Horton, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Kenproviso, the result was —yeas 46, nays 39, as follows: non, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leech, Morehead, McCormick, Y~As —1sr. nt Celill. Clark, Farr, Greene of Defi Norris, t.uigley, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Wilance, Gregg, (,roesbeck,'lard, Henderson, Holmes. Hoot. liam s,Wilson and President. — 30. man, Humphreville, Hunt. Jones, King, Kirkwood, Law- N~,ys-.Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett reuice, Lar,ill, Leech, Lesdetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell',f Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Brown of Athens, Brown of McCormick, Norris, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Clark, aulerr, Greene of Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton Hlard, Harlan, Stickney, Sti.,ger, Struble, Swift, Thompson of StarI, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman, Humpthreville, Jones, LawTowushend Wa rren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and I rence, Larwill, L~adbetter, l,idey, Loudon, Mitchell, Morris, Nd~n —s. And r ws, Archhoid, Barbee Barne McCloud, Otis, Patterson. Peck, Ranney. Remmelin, Roll, Monlygom.e.srs, BAnrnews oPrchbold, BatesBenett Blic ofSawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith Montgome-ry, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blicke n tno,Setii1 tcne,stigr tl. derfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking,o Swan, St, Stickneyn Stidger,t52. Chambers, Coo',. Curry, Cutler, Gillett, Graham, Gr ay, Green of toss. Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Horton, lunt- So the Cotiveution refused to adjourn. er, Johnson. Kennon, i,ar,h, Y, ason, Morehead, Morris. After some unimportant discussioin, McCltod, (tis, fleck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison,.mith ofi Warren, Stanton, Swan, Vance of Butler and W illiams { Mr SMITH, of uarren, uoved that the Convention So, the amendment was agreed to; and the questi adjourn, wich was agreed to. recurred upoii the adoplioni of Mr. Humphreville', pro-T viso, as now amended, which is as follows: SEVENTY O Dc.l SEc 35. Add at the end of the section the follow- i The (Convention met, pursuant to adjournment. "Pravided, That tie Gmneral Assembly shall have power to P~ ~ ~ o v i d e d ~~~~~~~Prayer by the Rev. Mr. Stiepardsoni. repeal or — evoke any charter of incorporationii now or lhereafter Mr. KING of Butler presented a petition from granted, and the privileges asil franchises of nly in:iorpo,'atcd Franklin Siokes and one hundrel and tlirty-four others, cO~iipaiy, ilpoil such jst aid1 equitiable terty~s fir tile coli'iioii citizens of Butler county, praying that provision be atidl p-yn ofsthe and tie disposition ofthe 1roprty of imade iii the new Constitution for tile removal of all suc,h compni)-~y a, they miay p~rovide." black and mulatto persous from ilie State. At the re M'r. KIRKWOOD now proposed furtloer to amend quest of the presentor, said petition was read by the the proviso, by strikiing out all after the word "gran t-or ed," and inserting the following-words: " orany ofthe mittee y and afeou s rfreto th and Pom privileges or franchises o' any company that hereto T The petitition is as follows: fore has been, or hereafter may be incorporated, upoettituion o f aS oi f~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~or the C)onvnin a/ to cbausgse tie Constitutiont of Ohio: such just and equitable principles as the General As- GFNTtPNI- I iI I citizens of Butler coulily, senibly may provide.' Ohi p, reslectfully petition youir oluito!-alsle boily, atid pray, that poisio be~ inade, in) theC,- ttto whichyuaenof'a The proposition having been entertained by the pro bei, - you are now fa wune for the remiioval of a I persons of iiegro, or part iiegro Cilair, {GIod, fro0mi the state of Ohio. And a!so, that such otlher anid Mr. R. said, by way of explanation, that his propo- fi-rtlier praovisio n ma be male. li pirventinig tie influx and iiisition left a higher discretion to the Legislature, thaiin of e o as will ee tall resto, o ile etate of the words whic:h he proposed to strike out. It pro- Obio, alution of lien wliitn nopt ant nrne other. A separation we regard as alike adlva,}tazeots to b~othl races,; posed simply, that the Legislature might revoke a char- and tlterefore wiiotht wis hing t) iinji,'e tle, v 0e &sl t{:at ter upon such terms as werejust and equitable, whilst they y b ice re,noveni B it as tlie piowet ofi irioval is a' importie amendment of the gentleman from Medina, [Mr a.it oiie, sw shl lersed with rest 1)r aii it N, eo ishou ld tle leprived of his tprol)erty, witliot l,t HIUMPeIREVILLE.] prescribes, that the l~egislature, ilivig acompetisatoti in niotinn- aoid retioved such a case, shall act just and equitably in relation to untl I rovisions are made for in another country. But, the payment of tie debts and the Idistriltu ion of the wiatever intay be the ioiiaeqentiee to the ie'oe- the happiness property of the corporation. anti N-e'fa e lreseit aid future g eeaion,equires the remioval. and therefore it siloai I Mr. STANTON demanded a division of the q urese lion; and then the first question was upon striking Mr. HARLAN presented a petition from Richard out. Randolph of Greene county, on tlie'subject of tile ten Thie yeas aid iiays bei,g demanded, ordered and ta- re of the J-udicial Oflice-tliejurisdictionof ihe courts ken upoti this question, the result was-yeas 29, nays of Comimion Pleas, and the right of trial by jury; which, 56 —as follo)ws: YES-Messrsl,)w Arebbold, Brown of Athens, Chom at the request of the same gentleman, was read by the YEAS —Mes-srs. Archbold, Brown of Athens, Chambers-, Secrtary, and afterwards referred to thoe committee oa Cutler, Graham, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton ece, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hunt, Johnson, Jurisprudence. Kennon. Kirkwood, Larsti, Morris, MeCloud, Otis, Peck. Said memorial is as follows: Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stidger, Swan, "Ta the (Conventisn of Delegates asscmb!ed at Cincinnati, to Taylor, Vance of Butler, Williams and Woodbury-29. prop ose amesdments to the Consti4arioii to the peo,21e fJ. NAYS-Messrs Andrews, Barbee. Barnet of Montgomery, Ohio: Barnett of Preble, Bate., Bennett, Blair, Blickensdetter Voit niisorialist resliecifiil-y sheweth unto your Honorable Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Clark, Cook 105, pretioss-tnoi, Curry, Ewing, Farr, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defaiance, ,,r vwirg out of a state of society imiater-ially different froum that Gregg, Hard, Hootman, Hoston. Humphreville, Hunter, cuiitrv from wi Jones, King, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, geii, ofevesythiug London, Mitchell, Morehead, McCormick, Norris, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, To it our co tiuiiiy -rTo t rpa e an errord T) to its foitin head is to refte i-pa e il So Mr K~~~~~~~~~~~IR~o:'5 amenmn ways: lost; haeondy thelnt to 4iilter'hio ane juinteeaes ofro question recurred upon the adoption of Mr. HUMPESER- sittplicity. BawhnheNoiniaislbroiughtoelit h t h m ~~ILLE 5 proviso, as amended [recited above].,_Ssad Lcwri'saa the jury triat, as wve now tiave it, was a Pending which, Mr. McCORMICK moved that theIapsailiaiocadiatoinetdth ireoopeais by Ihe decrees of ventat sid sai'servieni judgoes. Thon, it was Convention adjourn; the bulwa~~~~~~~rk and htoast ofotir ancestors; noit tiersaise so cointlex Upon which motion, Mr. L~IDEY demanded the a tiibuiiat was lest fitted 10oiiifiild the truth, atid to admiulater :yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted yeas 30, justice, hut i~esanne it was the ionly ineatnstheti devised to resist as follows: ~~~~~~~~tyrattil and the toots ofiysrants; —aad it thus liecaine rallier the lisys 52,~~~~~~~~~~~~~ palladiumi of their civil rights lhau the heal form of judicalura. ]9t OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DECEM-NBER 28. 'Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law, legalizing the, traffic in ardent spirits. Also from William Harlan and seventeen other citi zenis of Jefferson county, on the same subject. Mr. RANNEY presented a petition from Michael Ohl, and one hundred and nine others, citizens of Trumbull county, on the same subject. Said petitions were referred to the select committee upon the suhj'ect of ardent spirits. Mr. GROESBECK presented a petition from A. M. Cook, and two hundred and seven others, citizens of Hamilton county. praying that all property, without exceptiont be imtade liable to taxation, by constitutional provisida. Whicli was referred to the Standing Committee on Finance and Taxation. Mr. SMITH, of Warren, ask~ed and obtained leave of absence until Thu-rsday next. 'Ithe same gentleman as,ked and obtained leave of absence for Mr. MlcCLOUD, until Tuesday next. Mr. McCOR MiCK asked and obtained leave of absence unitil F'riday next. Mr. LARWlLL asked and obtained leave of absearce until the m12th da y of January next. Mr. BARNEpT, of Metlerguiery, moved that uhen the convention adjooursi on th is day, it adjourn to meet on Thursday next, at 9 o'clock A. M. Mr. CLARK moved to laywih theiresol tion on h e table, on which motion he demanded the yeas and niays, which being ordered, resulted, yeas 46, niays 36, as follows: YE..'s —Messrs. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Brown of' Athentis, Cahiiii, Chambers, Chancy, Clark, Cook, Curry, Farr, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Greesbecki, Ham-ilton, Hfard, Hawkins, Hender:on0, Hootmanil, Hiunt, Hunter, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh~, L~arwill, Mitchell, Morris, Pec k, erkinso Quig, attersoey, R eemelin, Sawy er, Scott of Auglaize, Staoto n, Stebbins, o-wan, Swift, T'ownishenri, Vanice of Butter, Wilson and Woodbury-46. NxYs —Mcssrs. Andrews, Barnet of Moi-ntgomery, Bennett, Blair. Blickenisderf'er, Brown of Carroll, Case ot' Licking, Cu-tler, Orea nf oss, Harlani, Holmes. Htorton. Johnson, Jones, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, I,(uIIoD, More, head, McCloua, McCormnick, Norris, Otis~, Patterson, Rliddle, ~Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Stidger, Sirable, T'hompso,n of Stark, Warren, Way, Williams and President —26. So the amendment was agreed to. Anid riow were we de n.~vo to fix up~on this mtode of judic,-ial de.-ision, we st or ( ualuraliy ask, why are twelve nlei., with. out eeice, letter qua t ied to investigate disputed lacts, k",a;It'.kiit'ul judges to wfioit are contfided tthe leterliiiiatioil of eoiiplex e/aud i.iitrlale que,tiotes, flaw tialnay arise otI tt tohoeZs fat it Iie,.atse upof the sbardect task, are less coeo I! t,ie e i tsi t the plw,tid iar fiaeS t of a sony ii lye, to ollow false h ood tit: otle i its devi ous wiles, andd draw ti)0tt naked t-utti into br ad 11 ay light? Jto urias are ever ia t leae iig strihegs: F -lir eat iuctios, charge s and lmw trial s, tg m eir vei(licls are roulted in to s uch liri o as i;esct suit, the views of -ti ju.(tge~s. Je riets rather retard I, than fu th er the ashctftisce. ardd ntay ae ikene t.oil a fiifod, woe (1el adee Mler L I( akeard Tano, pained leaeeo who hawe the making oa i of ti e lists from which is taken the pao,,l oelt juri o r ciss, s, (se, f sr the w at i t olf a eoetter reasmov,e that citizens esihofuld serve oiy tul lrls as jwnrors.i, fiir the conenpiose of io hs yruitiing titi t thi iiitei ple~iu e the waip ti is t d T r well known that atiwti a tse aii era,seu)who Oie iM most moeed of such itheres tion nh a atlof-trdiongly, wT tirol them doci le popilsw im o the hands of the Jud1ges. hwe see o what i i e dso, t his he sosted trial I fy jury. is dinliCt,ed to; amen i si.sin,t is the eaerct of rtitee. Bathe w ordf of the great Co rd B of'on-lin e i s the grelis Caill, Catyiest. Chnlall we not ttiei im~itate timei,? Now c u,t laoi the piev (,te Hunter, it)tnon,seful aKnd profitahle coaii. phi(ciii at il-ye cost to iawrec Lechts, add (lie Liueylic at-iatoge-th ioe h~nie ne adttu drlinayssettie Ihompati of Stairk Warrens oy Wil s and a~-(t clumiisy miode of prolee,a(l then i st rik i-e ah La!ai0ce r de tpaeei he oIain ela att,l tie loCs The mode of appi ntinig jtdges, whether Sy the fienieotle or theiar delegates, is a catter of iomuchi less coii nseqeice ha i the 1eruran enicy of flilet,' efiice. The judg,e mray b~e upigh,-Lt when apitd hu t his i~.,d(peiide~,'(e may I~e warped by after c-anis,s, if the dul ration of hia power is rm ad- e precaprti of the will aCmit ht,nnmhr Lf ,)Iuns; firhed will i iratua rally t e c ow sewuiouy s ai,d sthse rviet sn to thoe tiot wo he looks r icaon'tioibengance ia office. Tonuf, ith Eaeg Isod, to which we imay lock for diser(!(et examples, the ind~ep~en deBbcek, and twenty ix of thers,jcitizens of Flttoli d btasis t f their immohility. Acondty,ai tha a closege inserte the nesawne inr ded, haocratic t nsodes of al)stoitutio,enii, inproh e l latureif onip tore any les of incoporato the grealr or lessin tridn ns s of oheir position. Aand questions will armi, e itr the acitien of Fair equitabile ors, fortaecllection at( p ni(osi the stfife ofuparti,s. io thch a subjct.ge detay fiad h is apicounot ip, sMrap i R n,go his sourse accordition tfo tme prevaenyt witeda provide. Tno a stamle s ejudi ammre we owe tbe perfectioior the i ticitpa, jadurcisprSit,andece tit Eng sixao,si, To a sta,le jwadiciaryo we owe that voute, p yf Fede foal j earl;sprudeig de-t rve gr eat w ork of the veg ner r the Amred o can cda Ipstitutiop ds, the election ofRepreseotaives Ris:':ade pass~l,:-,,t, ~bat t im;,y o ie lawe sy palrn witlh obligiro constith, ad twenty-s Te vli oters, it iea offi s are tot anecessary t ity briet, i t a lse itedal in to dinw oilidte thay suo,e res in.era'!n,, ly r-otationi. Bu~t in~ judicatuires, the goo([ ofsociety is he(st pr-o,oreeled bv ste-adliness, u,.itbrmityi, ancnit-(Iy ot'decismon, which) alway,, will h~e attaiipedi ty the long,-est period of sevc. accotnipaliei(d hov,wever, wvitii the power ini the ordlinary le,,islaiiire, h~y dec(isi~ve vote, of' reineovinCE the inicumibenit, upon tsupervening inicapac~ity or dlisquialification.i RICHARD RANLOLP H. P S. l'Te couirt of cotmmon, pleas int End,ran~id, is,ra cour-t ofoyer and teirm~iner, and, g,en~eral jail deliveiry, anid its jur~is(liction i,s limnitedi x vi' terrainovum to conmm.on pleas, as contr-adistinguiished~ t"'n)Iy pleas to time crown.whyv th'en the pr-opriety o,f de~inominating c,ourits witi. a imixed j-irisdictioni, civil anid crimrinial, by the title of'comm-ion i;lea?"'" Mr. CHANEY presented a petit-ion fromn Thomas Babcock, and twenty-six others, citizens of F',-irfield county, asking that a clause be inserted in the new constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law, legalizing the traffic in spirituous liquors. .Time same, gentleman presented a petition fromn Samieel Burman, and twenty- three others, citizens of Fairfield county, on the same subject. Mr. GREEN, of Ross, presented a petition from Johnii Pelts, and s,eventy-three citizens of Ross county, on the Eat-n subject. THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. Mr. HAWKINS moved that the Convention take up the Report of' the Standing Committee, on the Legislative Department, which wats agreed to, and said repo)rt was taken up. The question being on the adoption of the amnendMrelit of Mr. HUMPHREVII.LE, as amended, to wit; add at the en d of section toi r ty-five, the followig,g: Pro - vieded, Ttha t the General Asse mbly sha ll have power to re peal or revoke any cfmarter of incorp orteration, now or hereafter granted, atnd the privileges and franchises of any incorporated company, upon such just and equitable terms, for the collection and payment of the debts and the disposition of the property, of such company, as they may provide. Mr. VANCE of Butler, in connection with the amendment now before tlhe convention, and in contii)uationi of his remarks, made last evening, before the adjournment, cesired to premise what lie was about to suy, with a few observations upon the original sectioni to which the amendment of the gentleman from Medina, is proposed to be added. That section provides that "'the General Assembly shall have no power, to pass retro-active laws or laws impairing the obligation of contracts or their remedies." He held that it was to,,ally unnecessary, that the constitution of the State hould contain any such restriction. No legislative 192 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DECENBER 28. body can ever exercise it, so as to impair the obliga the Constitution of the United States interposes a tion of contracts without violating the provisions of provision that the holder shall be protected in the the constitution of the United States and endangeL ing en)joyment of it, unless it becomes necessary to take theriglits and liberties of the people of the country. it, or make a sacrifice of it for the public good; in Instead therefore of restricting, where a restriction which case its value shall be returned to the owner. call be of no possible efficacy, it is due rather, that The ownership of private property legally acquired the framers of this constitution should provide all ex- is thus protected against any law that may be passception as to that clas; of cases, where, to a certain ex- ed to divest it, unless for the public good or public tent the exercise of such a power is not only right but safety. sometimes absolutely necessary. There is one class of What then is the true principle? Take the propercases, in relation to whichl, the Legislature should have ty-divest the franchise-repeal the act of iiicorpora the power to pass laws that shall be retrospective in tioc, but do it upon these conditions: first, that the act their operation. I refer to those that affect the remedy is demanded by the public interest; and secondly, that only. There are many contracts, which are in every a reasonable and adequate compensation in money shall respect, morally binding in their character, but which be paid for the property thus taken or sacrificed by the on account of some circumstance connected with repeal. them, cannot be enforced, either at law or in chancery. There is another question that arises under the Now, it is most necessary that the Legislature of the amendment. Gentlemen hav said that acts of incorState should have it in its power to prescribe some poratioll are contracts, and that the courts of the Union rule, which, while it neither changes the position of have already decided that, being such contracts, they tile!)1rties, nor the binding force of the coitract itself, may not be annulled by legislative authority upon any shall plst it iii the power of the courts to interpose such ground nor for any purpose whatsoever. The section of a remedy as without:tijustice to either party. shall ef the Constitution of the United States, under which fectually secure and declare the rights of both. I re- these decisionrs are said to be made is as follows: fer to that class of laws which have been denominated "No State shall enter into any treaty, alliance or curative statutes. These laws have been decided by confederation, coinl moneys, emit bills of cred(lit, make the Supreme Court of the Union to be proper, and to anything but gold or silver coin a tender ill payment of be consistent with the Constitution ofthe United States. debts, pass any bill of attainder,ex post facto law, or law The Supreme Court of the State of Ohio, also has de- impairing the obligation ofcontracts, or grant any title cided that such laws-as, for instance, the law of 1835 of nobility." regarding oefects in the niode by which deeds for the Upon this provision of the constitution the decisions conveyance of land had been authenticated-were not of the courts have rested. Now it may be a serious retroactive laws operating upon the! contract itself question, and one worthy of consideration, whetherall and impairing its obligation in such a manner as to be the acts of incorporation passed by thile General Assemobnoxious to the provision in the constitunion of tile bly of Ohio are contracts. I do not believe they are. United States, upon that subject. Someot them may be and probably are contracts; oth If we adopt the provision in the shape it now ers, 1 know are not. It is my opinion that this prostands, we deny to the Legislature the power to pass vision has been too often misapplied, il debate if not any law of this kiid(i,and effectually cuit off}the possi- in the decisions of courts. bility of any remedial or curative enactments being Looking to the Legislative history of the State of passed in tInture. Now I would not deny to the Leg- Ohio, I am disposed to believe and i willt say that 1 islature the right to pass laws of this kind. They am firm in this opinion, that perhaps all the legisiaare freq cotlv iiportaiit, in securing the rights of tion granting corporate powvers anid privileges in Ohio persons who otbherwise would be denied that relief partakes only of the nature of simple grants, and have which it is, in all cases, the duty of the law making but few if any of the elements of contracts-no conpower to provide-relief in every case of a merito- sideration has been granted or promised for the privilrious denmand. 1 have said thus much for the pur- eges so granted. Yet I will say that when these ose of turtling the attention of the members of the grants have been made in good faith-when the same onvention to the section to which an amendment is have been received by the citizens intended to be benproposed to be siade. The subject was before the efitted with the same good faith, and investments of Cotiventioi in June last, and was discussed to some money or other valuable property is made under the extent at that timre, and my own opinion is that it grant, and upon thile implied faith of the State; whe n was then amended in Committee of the Whole. valuable and useful improvenments have been constru c I desire now to renlder to the Convention a few of ted or large and desirable enterprises engaged in for the reasons that will determine me to vote against public as well as private advantage, &c., lthe obligathe amendme,it of the gentleman from Medina (Mr. tion of the State in regard to such grants, ought to be HuMIPHitEVfLi,E) as amecnded. I would say, that so far the same, as if they possessid all the features of a as the repeal of acts of incorporation is concerned, I contract. Such grants should not be watntonly viola believe it proper for the Constitution to vest that ted. They may be resumned, and so may a contract be power in the General Assembly; but at the same time, annuled by legislative authority ansd altogether disre wish it to be distinctly understood.that I believe no garded but before such power should be exercised member of a Legislative body should ever aid in there shlould be a reason for it, founded in the public carrying into execution a provision of this kind, un- good or public afety of our citizens. less he is fully convinced that the public good im- But Mr. President, I have ever held, and do now peratively require; it at his hands. But whenever hold the doctrine that the General Assembly may an it does beceoec necessary, it should be executed, riul contracts and resume grants of every kind, when but always upoin the most just and equitable princi- tile public good, the public interest or the public safe ples. If by this necessary revocation, a loss of prop- ty, demands this exercise of!egislative power. But erty shall accrue to the Stockholders of the corpora- in the exercise of this power the provisions of the tion, it should be made up to them. The Cosistitu- Constitution of the United States should be strictly tion of the UnTited States extends its protection to observed in its letter and in its spirit. No one shall every kind of property, ill the hands of its owners; be deprived of property, without due process of law; and it snatters not wht,ther the property be lands, nor shall private property be taken for public use, houses, mnoneys, stocks, incorporations or what not, without just compensation. This provision of the 193 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DEcE.IlER 28. whatever name you please, is agrarianism, and nothing else. Now, Mr. President, I have heard things said and appeals trade to partisan interests ind partisanii feelings, up on this floor, which I had rather not have heard in this place. Gentlemen have spoken of their Whiggery and of their Democracy here, as if they acknowledged the tenure of party above thle interests of the Steate, or the rightvs o fe its citizens. Such allusions, sir, I have never made. I however will take occasion (following the example of others,) to say that I have from my youth been a Jetfersonian Democrat; and as such ihave ever held it to'be the first duty of every legislator to en. deavor to extend to all citizens of the commonwealth the same privileges and the same blessio ngs. amn proud,sir, to own that I am a Dernocrat; bult at the same time, I declare that I never was, anti never can be an agrarian. I cast the imputation from rme. Agrariainism is calculated to dry up every source of individuii and national prosperity, and to leave nothing but a naked and barrel; waste in its ple. It is opposed to every real interest-rnoral, social, industrial, or political, and would as certainly prove the 4Jestruction of all public pr(eperty, as it would tile demolition of every private righ t or ilterest. Le,t us now come to the proposition before us, upon the amrrendrment as amended. That amenenc,'ent pro — ;idces that the General Assembly site-I have power to repeal or revoke any charter of incorporation now Or hereafter granited, and the privileges and franchises of any inzcorporated company, upon such just anld equitab!e terms for the collection and payment of the debts, and the disposition of the property, of such company as they may provide. To this, yesterday there was proposed an amend. ment providing to give to the General Assemibly the power to alter or amend as well as to repeal or revoke acts of incorporation; but this, after having been opposed by the gerntlematn from iMytediiia (Mr. HumP[IRVILL) aild others, had been, after some debate withdrawn by the mover (Mr. RRF:MgLIN) SO that now, if the amendment as it stands shall be adopted, the only function whichl the General Assembly can exercise owards an act of incorporation of any kind cr for any purpose, is nothing more nor less than its absolute, urnc,nditional repeal'and revocation. Let us look for a moment at the difficulties that will surround a measure of this kind. It is said to be a Democratic proposition, and yet does it not come in direct conflict with the doctrine long advocated by the Democratic party, of the right of the Legislature to tax the Banks of the state upon their property, as citizens of the state are taxed? Do you not forever cut off the exercise of this power by this, the constitutional provision under consideration? Can you bring the banks under the operation of this principle without the necessity of an (lteration in their charters? I seriously believe not. The provision under consideration partakes not of the character of a law that may be altered or repealed at the pleasure of the people or their representatives. It is a proposition intended to form a part of the organic a3w whichl will be imperative as long as the constitution exists. The General Assembly will be bou nd by it. The Legislature can, under the provision, repeal charters;i but cannot amend or alter. Et may destroy them but cannot extend to them by alteration or amend nent the influence and operation of thle tatxing~power. Do gentlemen intend thus to Unmit the exercise of beginative power? I trust not, I believe not. But sir, it is not in relation to the taxing power only, Fhat I took uponl the0 proposition as inljudicious, but fo; other reasons connected with the interest of to~ citi Conlstitution is imperative upon every legislative body, and upon every citizen of ourUnion. It should never be violated. Private property should ever be holdl inviola~e, unlesi s for the causes co.t-rpla,ted in the Constitution. Andc- the owner of private property should ever have a guarantee for its possession and enjoymnentt, far abo)(ve the mere will of a representative body. This gui,iaiaitee shotul(d ever be found in the organic law of thle lapid. Marie his rights merely(-v de pendenit upon leiii.slative will, and he has no rights with respect to thle sacre(l eljoyorlunt of private prop er,y,worth preserving. He knrows not at whata r mtyoment he may be deprived of it, and that too, without just comnpensationh. Mr. President, I do not mean to be misunderstood upon this important question. I hold, sir, that the General Assemblv has, and evershould have, full and ample control of every franchise granted, or hereafter to be granted within this State. The Legislature has the power to tax and should ever retain that power. The taxing power of the g -verniment is not easily part ed with. And I hold that it never can be parted with by the Legislature, unless for a just and ample corisi deration in return, and that too under the sanction of bona fide and binding contracts entered into for good and justifiable ends. I hold, therefore, that the capi- tal vested in every corporation within this State can be taxed, and ought to be taxed, precisely as other property is taxed. The taxing power has never bee n parted with in respect to existing corporate property. It is said that the Balks agreed to pay a certain amount of tax, and that therefore they should not be taxed beyond that, amount. Very well —they agreed to pay a certain amount of tax-and were they not bound to pay the same amount of tax, and even more -much more, upon their capital,before this agreement was made. Where then is tlihe just and adequate coi sideration for this agreement, which is relied up on? What of correspondiug value has been retained to the governrnent for this exemption from taxation? Noth in,,. i h ave already said that I believe, and fully believe, in the repealing power of the General Assembvly. Thist. power should be exercised in all proper cases. And the power should never be exercised in a case where the public good, or the public property and security calls not for it. Why, sir, the Legislature may take the farni or the Ihouse of a citizen for the public welfare. The contract by which this farm or this house i s held, so far as it secures the rights of the owner, is an- nulled, rendered inoperative, and useless. Why not d then take the property or franchise of a Bank or a Railroad Company when the interest and security of the citizens demand an appropriation or sacrifice of 1 such property. But when property of this kind should t be so taketn, it should be paid for by the same Gonstitu- ( tional rule that the farm or the house is paid for when o taken for like purposes. I would only provide for tihe payment, however, for the property acttilly takei, or T actually rendered valueless to the owner by reason of c the act disposing of it for the public good. Nor would t I include iii the estimate the value of the franchise- i mierely the property, sir, other than the franchise. Now, l sir, if such conmpensation should be withheld, the State t will not act ill conformity to the Constitution of the i United States, which provides that private property shall a not be taken for the public use without just coropensa- t tion. But, if the public good does not demand this sac- mr rifice of the rights and interests of individuals, and the Dl Legislature, ini the mere wantonness of power, or to at gain some temporary or partisan purpose, goes on to make a wholesale repeal of c arters, merely because tIl they are acts of incorporation, the result-call i; by o 194 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, D,:cEMBER 28. stockholders that all this property is wanted for the free use of the public-therefore your charters are repealed and the gates of these bridges are thrown wide open for the benefit of the public to pass and repass at pleasure free from the liability of contribution. Now, sir, the stocks in these bridges are held by adults anid rr.irol l, ors-by the wealthy citizen and by the mall ofmoderate means. They are divested of their property for the public good, but you provide not a payment to them in proportion to the value of the property you take. Now, sir, it may be said that the amendment under consideration gives to the Legislature the power to make just such remuneration as it may deem right and equitable. I admit this; but in answer I will repeat wtlat I have already said, that the right to occupy and enjoy privivate property should ever find security friom above and beyond the mere will of the Legislature. This right should be found in the organic law of the State. The right is found in the Constitution of the United States, and it is because the terms of thi amendr:.ent conflicts with that constitution, that I now raise my objection to its adoption. Say in your constitution that when such property is taken for the benefit of the public, that itsjust value shall be paid for, and leave it not to the mere will of the Legislature and I am with you. Such a provision as I have suggested would harmonize with the provisions of the United States Constitution, and consequently on thatground be unobjectionable; whilst at the same time it would secure to the honest anid industrious citizen a guarantee of the enjoyment of his property entirely without the reach of mere legislative will. Now sir, what I have said with respect to propertv in bridges applies with equal force to turnpike conmpanies, railroad companies and all other chartered companies for the purpose of promoting tihe public ewelfare by means of internal improvements. Why, esir, millions-millions of dollars have been vested by our citizens, in imnprovemients of this kind-and yet you propose no other guarantee of its enjoymient than that vwhich is found in mere Legislative discussion! I can support no such provision. Nevertheless I propose to give to the Legislature power, (which by the by it has always had) to take all this property if the public welfare requires it, but pay a just compensationi therefor, and let that kind of com-penisation be provided for in the constitution. Now, gentlemen, when they are talking of corporations, and the power that should be exercised by the General Assembly &c., are too apt to direct their attention excIusively to,%ankihg corporations, and lose sight entirelv of tfhe hundred other corporations that are provided, as well for the public advancement as for the irnterest of the corporation. They forget the million s of p r operty vested in corp orati ons for internal improvement-capital which is held in greater or less amounts by every class of our citizens, and thirnk only of the rich banker. Hence the great feeling that grows out of this subject. Why, sir, you may repeal a bank charter without taking fronm the banker one dollar's worth of property which he may have in store. You leave all his property and effects of every kind with him. He still continues to en joy it as thiough no repeal had taken place so that ]lie can have little or no claim to damages for propertv sacrificed. The repeal affects him not except ill pr'ospect.:But, sir, such is not the fact with respect to the thousand and one corporations for public improvement;s. That portion of our fellowr citizens which hiave freely vested their means for their oven anrd the public good, should hasve the same protection —no mzore nor less, than the citizens where real estate is taken for the public good. Now, as to this case you have protected the citizen by an express provision that the full value of his pro zens. W hen i t has become apparent that through somedefect or oversight in legislation a right has been c onferred, which, il its exercise may be incompatible wi th the public interest, the power to t alter or amend the act beco mes necessary; and if it i s not possessed, the Legislature w oul d be forced to consider the alternative, either to bear the wrong, which may result from the unfortunate provisions of the ch arter, or t o repeal i t at onc e, and thus cut off the evil complained of. Now which would be preferable? To have power by a simple provision, ret at to retain all that is desirable, or to be forced, in order to get rid of a little that is b ad, t o destroy much that is g ood? But, it is said that to confer upon the General Assembly the power to amend ac t s o f incorporation, would be in effect, to give encouragemeint to acts of special legisl ation. It is provided, say the advocates of this view of the subject, that corporations shall be created only by general, and not by special l aws; n ow if a power s till remains in th e G eneral Assembly to alter or amend the privileges of particular associations iiparticular cases, it is claimed tha t t he r es ult wouln b e precisely the same as if the L egis latu re had t he p ow er to pass special a cts of incorpor ation, and all the evil that has been t he result of that practice would s till exist. and perha p s in a still higher degree. But, Mr. Preside nt, it does not seem to me, t hat the p ower to alter ort am end, by any m eans necessarily admits the necessity o' s pecial Legislation in theese cases. A mendments t o g en eral laws moay be provided by amendments as general as the laws themselves; and it will b e found tru e that wh en a general e,ct needs amendtheent, in o rder that the rights of one body organized under it may be changed it will require the same in regard to all others in like circumstances. For example: The General Assembly enacts a general law for the erection of one class of corporations-Banks perhaps. Und er i ts provisions, thre e companies are formed-one in Cleveland, one in Cincinnati and one in Columbus. The one in Columnbus goes into operation, in advance of the other two; when it is found that owing to some defect in the law, the benefits supposed to atecrue under its operation, and intended to be conferred, are totally nullified and destroyed. This body petionis the Gel,eral Assembly to supply the defect by a supplementary act; and it is certainly by no means necessary that the rights conferred by this act should be restricted to the institution at Columbus; but on the c:ntrary it would be just and proper to make the amendment as extensive as the defect, and to apply it to all companies then or thereafter to be organized under the provisions of the general law. So that this objection falls to the ground. I have one other objection to the amendment. It is this; that it does not provide sufficiently for the remanuieration of stockholders, when they have sustained loss by the repeal of their charters. I do not say that I would make such remuneration upon any prospective profit which they might realize in case they were per. mitted to continue their business. I would not unider the charter; but I say this, that there must be cases where there will accrue to the stockholders severe and serious loss, by the revocation of their franz-hises, which every principle of public faith and honor demands should be made up to them. To cite an instance; there ares in the county in which I represent, as many as three bridges bu ilt by incorporated companies, and which cost from fifteen to twenty-five thousand dollars each. These bridges have been of great convenience the public, and are as necessary for the public conVenience now as they ever were. But the General Aseembly may see fit to repeal the charters under which they were erected, and by virtue of which private property in these bridges is now held. It says to the, 14 195 196 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, D&ECEr,n:R 28. pet shllepi i,i ae o h ulcwl M.VNEhr edfrifraii i rps perty shall be paid him, if taken for the public reltare. We were all unwillingr to leave to L t ei slative discretion, the question of fixiing the amount to be paid for the property so taken. Place property holders in corporations formed for the public welfare upon the same fourndation precisely and I am cont tbent Let us not miake a cont-it ution that wvill apply to the enjoyment and secuirity of one mm's property inl one way, alsd to another m' property in anoithe r way. Such a constitution will not suit a people wi,ho adlvocate the doctrine of eqial rights and e qual privileges. I object to the amendment therefore, because it does nriot go far enough to harmonize viti the p rovisions of the Constitution of the Uniited States. It merely makes provision for the repeal, w ithout securing to the property-holder the just avalee of his p roperty.taken or rendered valueless by the act of repeal. Mr.-KING. My colleague has declared it to be a part of the true policy of the State to pay damae es to Stockholders where franchises have been divested by act of lawv. May I ask how this policy is to be carried out. Who is to pay the dainages, atid how are the y to be paid? Mr. VANCE. My colleague has asked in what manner this numeraiton is to be made. Where such provision is made, and a full and ample hearing is guaranteed to the citizen we have accomplished all in this respect, that it is our duty to do. I hold, Mr. President that it is the duty of all governments to be just, as well iii consideration of their duty, as of their respectability and their safety. I be-, lieve sir, that all governments that practise injustice will sooner or later fall. No individual can be habitnally dishonest without corning to ruin, anli the rule as applicable to goverii,neiits is the same as applied to individuals. Such is the law of God, and it is immutable. We cannot practise national or individual dishonesty without ill the end meeting that condign punishment which seems to be atnnexed to ill doting, not only as a penalty but as a necessary consequence. Unless a government is just, it will sooner or later be destroyed. Not only so, but the bad faith of governHment has all the effect of evil example upon the peopler, who live under themn; and the dishonesty of the one will be ever found to act upon and increase that of the other, thus augmenting the cause ot evil and aggravatimg the teitlenlcy to tile overthrow of the one and the moral desolation of the other. Our duty here is merely to lav the basis, to establish the rock upon which tihe future legisla G tion of the State is to tie based. When we have done this, we have done our duty-we have done enough. If we attempt to do nmore, there is infinite danger of leaving undone what we came here to do, and(i enidangerinig the adoption of the result of our labors, by the people. If we perform this duty well, we shall have donie a great work-infinitely greater than to have travelled out of the true line of duty, for any purpose whatever. here we ought to stop; and I have regretted to see members so strongly disposed to go into detail, where generals are all, not otnly, that is ntecessary, but that is compatible with our duty. f the General Assembly commits an error in Legislationl, the obnoxious provision can be repealed. It need to exist but one year; but if we commit a mis take, and embody it in the Constitution of the State, the people have power to remedy it,but byanother Convention. I have drawn up an amendmenelt, which in case of the rejection of the onle under consideration, I propose to offer. I am not fully satisfied with its provisions, but if it meets the views of gentlemen, it may be per fected ill what it is defective —it is as follows: "Provided,that all acts of incorporation atnd a cts granting franchises may be altered, amended, revoked or repealed, by the General A sseiiobly of thi s State, upon such terms andt conditions pertaining to the e inviolability of rivate proiperty, as is provided in other cases in this' onstitLtio n.'" Mr. REEMELIN sai(l. I huad fircm,ly reso lved last ight not to say anything again on this q uestion, but some fou~r or five speeches have since been made on this subject, all adverse to the pro posed a mendment, a n d I trust, therefore, it will no t be taiken ami ss for the friends'of th amendment to make one speech to the ol o ir fo ut I-. Before enter into te main points undera discussion, I will. however, for fear of forgetting it, reply briefly to the poi nt made by the gegntleirato fr om Butler, in re'erence to the aedmet I had the oor to e bt a b e omt offer yesterday. I withdrew it, because I was not 5atisfied ,A hether the addition of the worSas "to alter oeramend,'s would not w eak en the propositioin, and car,y with it a meaning which I do not d esire. Be ing, therefore, not satisfied ill my owun mind, I withdr e w it, becau se I prefer, under such circumstances, not to act. So far as bank taxation is concerned the gen tlemano, however is certainly wrong, for wea will have a distinct proposition in the Coostitution in reference to tha t subject, so that he need not be afraid but what banks will be properly taxed. In endeavoring to get at the true rneaning of all those who oppose the aArrendmelnt, I was reminded of a remark attributed to the late Charles Harmrmond, "that politics make strange bedfellows." In this discussion we fined the greatest conglomeration of men, ideas and principles, which has ever been together in one political trundle bed. No two of the opponents of thie amendment could agree together in their opposition to it. It is a kind of triangular fight amongst them —all fightingg together for one object, but crossinlg and reeroSSing each other. It is a thing so mixed up that yOU Cannot get head nor tail of it. .Here is the great whig party, denying, in tote, the right to interfere with charters. The;r doctrine is, that when the people have parted with any power, it is gone forever. They have the merit, at least, of a kind of consistenicy-aii immoral, aniti-republican conisistency in their doctrines. Their preaichling corresponds with their actions, and I cannot, but admire the bold niess of the ground they assume. With them, the General Assembly can barter away a portion ot the power of the sovereign people, and the people could not get it back again! Their position has sormethinig tangible. But the positions of our so-called democratic friends are of a migratory character-thev hold all sorts of doctrine. Here is my honorable colleague, [Mr. GRoISB.C:,] voting for the unqualified power of repeal. He de clares, by his vote and by his speech, the repealability of all charters now existing, or to be brought into ex istence hereafter-declariing that the right of repeal positively exists. But after he has gone the whole doe trine, he takes it back by qualifying it, that whenever the Legislature does repeal a charter, it must make the parties whole, and making them whole, he says, means, paying them for their property and their franchise. Let me say to mny eolleague, in all kindness and in all seriousnless, that I would most respectfully decline accepting the power of repeal upon any such terms! In the language of my friend from Monroe, [Mr. AaCteaonD,] "I look upon such a condition to a charter as an incestuous connectionl,which can lead only to mischie f and corruption:" I Mr. VANCE here real for information his proposed arrietiditieiit; but subsequently modified, it was to make it read as follows. belefit the pArticular loc'.tities through vhichi they;its1 dcio;i u t t th tt t pass-and to give an additionial value to for ur coistitition.'hat thus that Coiurt tns ad tw and cy lots, and for commeral can (do what Coigres has iio riglit to do, andl il. re {.alids; anid towin and city lot,, and for commrciairights us .ivalry. In less thatn twenty years from thlis time, a State!! d other words hattac aid deniisl o ll our rights, ciii i these railroads will cease payine fair dividenids and p ersonal, from the tine of our infancy to tie such vwill be the effect of cotipetition. Their stock- aim d perenal, frot t the ie of o nfacy t.o t,e boldeis will then go to the Legislature and r erid othe of ouri grave, veye, at las, to be decid' d t. an, fha t body, that there is iii our constitutio n a p ro- by tt tribunal; so, that, at last ae have to dep I, that body, coustitution a pro-for the assertion of our righfs, upon the urbitrunie:~ vision, which authorizes the repeal of all charters by fr the ai,sert.i of our rights, u t e a ho tl *- \ r w. X s w 1 cu~~f th~at coulrt. If that is t~he case, then eA.sh,:t;:tl pay,i:g [oi the franllcise aud mnaking the stockholder fe ihet feel hiumtbledl a,- a people, for butt fewv kniow thIat su,l h1 vwihole. TIhey wil log-roll for the repeal, anrd ask the ers i bled as a people, for t ewe to bhat l u Ii State to take their railroad off their hands. Thiey wil poul a ever wore utendod to be c onferred upo,i tbt * z. 8 * s 1. 1 r trtbunal; we should humbly, with due reverence I,,~r have iranchises repealed, so as to be paid for th em as that dread aibiter, trv, at lea,st, to take "he po%,v,r ,roperty. If you thus reoeal thenm, tht;ey will be m uch back again. We sho,uld. lk e inn.ep asetiii.r obtliged to you o As fast as the railroads or turnpike back aiain. We uni e eg n keep asstig.r w1ll become unprofitable, thiey wlil log-roll for tiieir re- sovereignty, Ulitl we regn it. Sir, it is a most startling proposition. to hear;men eal and tes ttheir propei tv wit h paid for hy the stat say that the Sua preme Court of the United StaLtes r, The doctrine leads directlo to this monostrous result is terpose their po.wer i leliif o f corporatious III It would prove, indeed, a most inicestuous cetneeton Ohio-m.ay interpose hr docis il in ao case betwein betwel} tle g57erllllet ald tIe eopoOhio-l v~l -may inter~pose her decisions; in a ca~se between between the governiuent and the corporations. I would a sovereign ay asvrgnState anidher ~ei-atulles-mayl inepo far rathier that all thlese corporations sl.ould live out with th autloitoy of the Lecislatote (f tlte S f-t f their own time, unrepealed aoil undisturbed, save by Olio iI oiere domestic niatters. Sir, if this asu their ownI blttnders. Better no right of repeal, than on tio be true, thel the Judiciry of the Geera the condition that the State shall become thus respoii- ernnierit cau do what Con(ress canrot, and dare -i,,t sible for the final adoptionr of these thle bastard children do. Then the Sup,eme Coiirt lias verified wlhat 1'4tof unequal legislation. This proposition would saddle rick Henry and others predicted. Through that trithle people witi a debt whicih no mani dreamed of, ad buia te ene Gornent ay w p aa e not a h~~~~~~~~~umn su alcluae u.al the G~enera,l G~overnm.ien-t imay sweep,,-,ava t,ite uot a human soul can scaculate. after another of thlie liberties of tlhe coun try. h, M.y honorable (colleague tells us, that on stich terni iiideed, tte Uiited States Coverliicont -il buefi he has Ino doubt of the riglit of repeal. Neitiier have the grave of our freedom. I, nor any body else-lie warns us bothl privately and This assulmptio'l of power on the part of thile Stipublicly, that his is the best way to get rid( of obrox- preiie Coiiit, anouits to this: The pOp of hi p~~~~~~~~~~~~peeCut munt toti:T people of Ohio; ious corporations mneeting here in Couvention like this, have nio r. it BuIt; I bay{,( to, cav the m,?7 (il'ih s,a-ue,ona thuie Presbvte- to question its decisions in deterniniiiig uponii its do r~ia:nidi tii tk1 U1/;m'- I:i; alrt...-. If thereis no hell, then mestic p)olicy Its judgmerit nmu,st be our ludemet. I a,'\l;:....~r,, a-,,~{,,t a{ hi, if tlieie is ahell then I Their decisions. when read to us, shall be as a iia:, :.;}liai.:.-::f..^. 11 d. -,A: t:5. i.,1 dangaler;" so I nar ter upon our mouths, to stop fuLrther i,quiry. Sii, ia sai. i t,~:,-.y t),&,;a?e c~,i,:,'3".:'-. [ f le is rig,ht, (and this instance as in all othler cases of the exhibitio n t k~,.,v;: it, i.,: i,; f',,i-iti:t,3.i, thatwemay exercise of tvranny, I confess that I feel the spirit of resist~int. igh.7it,,f toee w7 -itiimut pUttiig it in the Consti- ance risi within me. tution, by paying!or the franchise, still, putting ii Mr. AR;jB3OLD, t'n his sca.t.] Maybe it is tlhe the right of repeal iu so many words, will do no harm. s)rit of preindic. But, lf he should hiappen to be wrong, and I known, MIr. ti' LIELiN. Well, perhaps it may be perthlat, under the decisions of the United States, he is haps vwe have beeni mistaken in the matter, but I will wrong, in IhiS afirmmation, that, under the righlt of eveii put mny prejudice against the prejudice of the eminent domain, we have the right to take awav char- Court, that I have yet to see the first political dec;sters, (I say this with due deference to the superior ion of the Supremne Court of the United States that legal knowledge of m.y colleague,) then, the,adop- was right; and it is pretty conclusive evidence to 8 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DECEMBER 28. m propose to leave them! the stone abutments, planks and shingles? They would be worth verv little. I say that his iron rule would work in many cases as g reat injustice, as any arbitrary legislature could in flict. I admit that it might perhaps operate equita bly in other cases, but of that the General Assembly should be the judge as eac h case arises. Mr. VANCE. I said upon such principles as the Legislature may prescribe. IMr. REEMIELIN. Yes sir, the gentleman did sa y so. But his amendment reads different, and I ails trying to showe himt the injustice of his attempts t(o establish an unalterable rule, such as his amend ment contemplates, where the stock of a company has been unproductive, and where a company have long exer cised their powers bith advantage, then different rules ought to obtain. The matter should be settled upon terms which will be equitable then and not upon iwhiat opal y be eqe i table now. In many cases, as I have sa id be fore, corporation stock i s take n with a view to increas e the value of property along the line of the contemplated improve ment; and now, I would ask the gentlem-ian, whether he would be willing, to prescribe a rule which must be binding a hundred years hene. Mr. ARCIHIBOLD, (interrupting.) Does the gentle man think there is any charter in the State which has even thirty years to runt Mr. REEMELIAN. Yes sir, that uinfo, tunate word "perpetual," is to be found in the charter of a good many companies in Ohio. Mr. ARCHBOLD. There never was, whilst I was in the Legislature a single charter granited for perpetuity; nor, as I think, for more than twenty years. Mr. REEMELIN. All I have to say in reply, is, that the gentleman is mistaken. The point I make is, that 3 ou cannot make a rule that will apply equitably in all cases, in this constitution; and when I was interrupted I was about to ask the gentleman froin Butler whether he was willing to make a rule to operate one hundred or even fifty years lhene. Mr. VANCE, (interposing and Mr. R. yieldingz,) said: There may be an equitable mode adopted; but that mode should be in itself equitable, and not left to the discretion of the Legislature. The objection which I take to the proposition, is,thlat it proposesthat the Legislature shall prescribe the terms upon w. hich the repeal shall be made. I would prefer that the terms should be fixed here, so as to operate equitably between the State and the stock-holders. Let the naked principle go into the Constitutioni, and let that be equitable. If there be no loss, then there need be no reimnunerationi. Mlr. PEEMIELIN resiuming. The gentleman lhas not bettered his condition. There must be a discretionl in the General Assembly at the time they exercise the power of repeal. Let any one go throiugl marfully with all the various classes of corporations, such as religious corporations, literary corporations, intellectual improvement incorporations, and banking corporations —and it will become self-evident, that a discretion as to the manner of w%inding up, and the final disposition of property mu-st be exercised by the Legislature, whenever they exercise the power of repealing a charter. (Mr. Rg. gave instances from the past, in the case of the Sandusky Turnpike Comtpan~y and otherinstancees, &c.,) anld aldded, cojrporanions acre th1ecreatures of the lawv. The lawA gives thema breath-~without it they cease to exist.:Natural persons have rights from:Nature's God. Their rights are inalienlable. Those of corporations are ephemeral, and they must abide by their ephemeral existence.s... tmy ind that a mtan is wrong upon any political qestip ) whe n he gets to quotin g the d ec isions of that Court, instead of giving us sound political doctrine. I say they should have but little weight with us, for the peop le e n nmasse reject them; but be their decisions what they L slaav, that is no business of ours. It i s our business t o doright to omake a good CobIsti tution, and to let the Suiprem e Court attend to its sphe re. It is our business to declarethe supreme l aw in O hio- let us wait and see whether the Su preme Court dare interfere with it! I do n ot th ink that my f riend from Bu tler [Mr. VANCE,] will differ mn chmith me wh e rn we com e to understand each other, and if we sh ould be acting on any particulal case. I do not object much to the general proposl. tion, t hat the Legislature should exercise the power of rep eal i ng charters upon equitable terms. Nor i would obect to the idea, te that when the faith of the State has been properly pledged, a charter should be heedlessly repealed. I admit th at we sho uld no t needlessly disturb a ny of th e exis t ing relations of life. But who ever contended that wbe s hould do so? Who want s t he Legislat ure to sweep incdiscrimi nately, every corporation in the State out of existence, and c aymmit wholesale robbery all over the l and, by app ro priating their prop erty to the State treasuryi or render i t useless? None have proposed such a thing, none desi r e such a state of affairs. Nor have I muiiich objection, that in most cases, whe r you take away their frandchises, the property hld by the cor poration sh ould re vert to the corpora tors. Sometim es thia would be right, and sometimes it would b e wroog. I n the c as of e of soe turnpike onlpallies i t mi ght n ot be right to give them any thing whee n you take away their corporate powers, as in the c as e of the Sandusky Turnpike Company-is i oth,ers it would be right. But I object to making a rule bv wh ich all corporations slall be judged. We ar e laxint a fe oundation upon which our institutions ar e t o be based, and therefore should not go so far into specifications. We should state the general principle leaving details to the General Assembly. I ask him to consider, w hether in his am endment, w hich he read for information, h e i s not committing the very error against which he admiion-ishes us? Has he not gone aore into detail than wwe? He not only asser t s t he rignht of repeal, but he establishes an ir on rule by which the Legislature shall be governed in the matinera il every case. For instance, in a n the case of a benevolent society, whose property was collected from men long dead, but w hi ch has decl ined and gone downl, so that t he existing members w ould ask the Legisla ture to take away their chaoter, with a view that this pr(,pertv in such a case, under his anyend sament, eliollt go to t the remaining coporators as most certainly it wE ould, would it b e ri ght? Again, in the case of a bridge comr pany, which may have already received back (as the gentleman gaver instances,) sole fouir fold of the original inves tment, sutppose it were necessary, for publ c purposes, to displace it fear a better bridge, which the company. would reftLse to build, and th e Legislature should take away its char ter, shouldth o they go to such a company and say, we will repay you to the amount of your capital, atnd six per cent. on your original in.......ot Certainly not~ Equity should guide there, and nob a preeitn conlstitutional rule. This wzo,~ld satisfy both parties better. M*r. VNCE of BultlerJ [inter oqing] I did not advocate the principle that damages should be paid wohere thle parties had brought evil upon themselves, but only inl cases of actual loss. Mr. REEMELIN. Well, what is the property of such a bridge company worth? for that is all you I I I i t t i nI t c 1 198 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, DECEMB R 28. But let us not mistake each other, (hlie continued,) them, that the whole basis of their studies is in direct let no0 manl suppose that we are differing only about conflict with our institutions, and that they havestudi led details. Our friends may be involuntarily deceiving law upon monarchical, and not upon republican priucithemselves. Tike difference between us lies deeper, pies; that their arguments are all derived from monarit isradical, from the starting point upward. The chical institutions? For such is the fact, and it is but sovereign pow er of the people, the basis of all demo- seldom, that legal men get clear of the early impressions cratic principles is involved. We do not differ mere- thev receive by studying moinarciiical authors. They ly about the rule to be applied, in case the power of have got their'ideas Irorn Blackstone, Montesquieu, and repeal is exercised; no, the real point of difference men of that kind, who were far ahead of their own appon their part, arises froum a leanin, toward corpo- times, but really never -eaz.hed truIe republican priniratiens6 one side, and a distrust of the people on eiples. In monarchies, corpot,rations are properly dethe other. I know that my colleague and our other fended by the courts against the whimrs of the king. erring democratic friends will revolt at this imputa- There the charters of corporations shloul(l not be taken tion; but I will show, that it is so, however much away easily. Corporations there occupy a position anthey may try to deceive themselves or others. tagonistical to the king. And it may be right there to Let me ask my colleague and the gentleman from curb the kings, for experience proves kings too often, Butler, to tell us konestly what picture was in their to have been violators of the rights of property. But tu-inds of the legislature and the people, when speak- here, where there is no kinl, where we want no power ing ot this subject. Do not their words reflect from antagonistical to the great sovereign —tle peoplethe iairror of their hearts, the legislature as a kind of here there is no need ol such a rule. public authorized mnob, going about, amongst corpo The true position corporations occupy in this govrat.ionps seeking whomsoever they may devour? tak- ernmeint, is too often mistaken. This was the error of ing cff tie heads of corporations, here and there, at Chief Justice Marshall, and is the error of every gelipleasure, removing turnpike gates, and running, tiemani who has spoken here upon this subject, aid riot allover thle laud? Sir, I see the picture plainly, against the right of repeal. They are all wrong as to and yoiur listenters have with mnt recognized it. In- the facts, and the premises being wrong, the arguments -stead of seeitg in the legislature what they ought to based thereon are equalty so. They claim that a -se a bodyof representatives reflecting the will of an charter and its franchises are a contract; whereas, in honiest petaple, taking care of the general interests most instances, it lacks the main ingredient of a cono3f the people, hatiuag none, but protecting all-they tract, the right of the contracting parties to make it. see nlzothit but a kind of miob entirely hostile to Almost every corporation takes awav power from the t.he irnteres~s of corporations and kindred iaterests, people, and is, in most instances, aviolation of the funamd therefore froen its peci tdices and liability it- damental compact, at least to the extent of the exclproper and disboldest impuplses, incapableof exercis- sive privileges granted to them, and to s-me extent do aia tie power of repeal peperly. To show that I they all take away power from the people. Therefore, jm rigkt in this, let rme remind you only of tihe lan- while in Euglanid, I might favor the proposition, that "aug of m v honorable colle~tue. lie su,~poses- the uane xf my h orable ollegue. He suppose the corporations should not be at the mercy of the GovQxistieAce of a corporation, "which has meekly exer- erement, because, in that counltry, they abstract powcised clearlv bothing hut its appropriate legal pow- er fronm the crown, and are so far useful, and contribuera." Tflat is a suppositcl suYrely! for if there is ting there to a greater distribution of power, they such a corporation in the State of Ohio, I should like strengte the power of the great body of te people strengthlen the power of the great body or the people, to hear the name of it and Barnum should show it But sir in this country, coiorations contiiabout the coiitry as a curiosity. But my colleague ually abstract powe r from the people and they prceeds. "If the leislature, acting impulsivelyand have becomne the fortified stroTi,-holds of legal rupeon the spur of the moment, sheoald repeal the wrongs. They feel, that they occupy a position ane,licarter of sulch a compainv Did I not tell you tagonisticl to the spirit of our institutions, and that -while tbey look u pon3 the legislature as a kind of thant-; while Assemblyo usilv excited and acting therefore. they are alarmed at every popular move,n irket-house A, inent. The holder of a wrong never yet felt safe befromu excite]ent, they also look upon corporations as fore the people. They know they eni exeptS eek aud honest, and under the coutrol of fair-mintd and privileges beyend what is accorded to individua men,. The People and the General Assembly they uals, aud they feetit is expecting a little too much paint black, the corporations white. of a republican people to be permitted to enjoy them It is a little strange, and worthy of remark, that long, uiiquestioiied. But their fears have so far been each i and every member who has spoken upon this sub- only of their own creation. 'ect, &ad taken this groutid, belones to the legal profes- The people and the General Assembly have been -sior, and that each and allt of their propositions tends the very fathers of corporations. Will the gentle.directly to increase the am ount of litigation; I make man from Monroe point me to the time when the Leglo cha,geof impreper motives, but such is the direct islature of Ohio has exercised this power of repeail~endeacy of ev,ry propositiont which these gentlemen irg charters improperly? Or will any other gentlehave made; and nous,e of them is more plainly marked mnan point out to me the repeal of a siingle corporain this respect, than that read by the genttleman front tion, which has acted, as my friend says, meekly, and Butler. within the letter of the law? Where has been the If my colleagues proposition were coupled with that case? take the whole range of the United States, and, of the gentleman from Ashtabala, (Mr. WOODSPRY) where, I ask, is the example of such a corporationi giving the right to sue the Siate, then the sooner every heedlessly stricken down? hontest man could get out of the State, the better; for Gentlemen talk about prejudices against the banks every cerporation in the State, would then be anxious and corporations generally. Who created those prejufor repeas, whenever their busitess would become un- dices, if they exist at all? Who, but the banks ang profitabl, and the State would have to foot the bill. corporations themselves? Had the banks of Ohio What a harvest for lawyers! What a fine milch cow done only what they should have done, had then the State would prove to be. not violated the rights of individuals, had they dof Strange that these legal gentlemen should strive to- ed their exclusive character, then these dreadful daengether in order to drive us back from the plain course E agogues might have said what they pleased, the po of our duty: Will they take it utikindly, if I tell ple would still have stood by them. It is wrong t& 199 OHiO CONTENTION DEBATES MoND,Y, DCEMER')O 30. c:..lie po)pular feeling against the banks and co- Our frienids admnt a i right of repeal as iirherent i: t.o itious a preliudlice: it is a?udqmenit upon them on the General Assemibly wliv will ]ley no trust it witl~+ accoi,nt of their iniquities. Sir, the onlv difficulty its equitable exereise. i:+ th-at tis power of repeal will not be exercised as And iono! ish to say a word, inu conic,sio-I ]wich ofti as it shliould be. I appeal to my friend frot I hope will tloe takeii unkiodt v M1onro e, with whom! have often stood shoulder to What is it that th fbIo le plxpect of us? Do they sh o. d in the Legislature. in many a battle against not expect 0f us to as-eit the detri;i of the r-igh,t of tile 1ow011er of corpornations,-i appeal to hiim to sDy rpal, wihtl qlification? Did ti,y noi fri that wtother the po1-we of corpoeiaions is not too strong? aniong ote,r puro.es send the mi,ajority lire, and, wl -ieher it ever- was as wveak as mlebers now desire why h irt t de democraey of the State of Ohio, i,u Stat,,, to nai;t it, or whether there is any dvang'er that it will and cuntyI cnvenitioils, —yea why have we ini our eve.? beconii so? I tell you sir, aud a loag experience town mneetiigs iI- or:_peeches and in oir p e,asproves iny assertion true, that every corporation whieh serttl this great edctrin e. bec aune, i t an gae of' aets properly,byl'eepiaginviewvtthlepuolic good as the Lainart-iiine, i is an a,ssertion f the rights etf livng: great object of its creation,is as safe in the hands ofthe t aainst the wro.s of dleadt Wlat is i. I' en L~eeisiatuie, as a baile in its' mother's lap. Then let now in ther raves have c ii-d pi-(pe a us licear no more talk of the opposition and the preiu- i yproterl, l- Peopl he,e as ciobled iii Colle".... dices raised against banks and corporations bv thie Iall, holding a inquest upon the-patit,have iighttti,, preaciiiiig of demagogues. Let meii cease to as, ex- assert the right of its Le C,i'ate, to sayto thesedear ece sive privileges and immiunities. Let corporations ince, "you e rr(mg." be confined to their appropriate sphere of (1utv let Aud what will the peoile s,y of nesdemoc-ats if y equality be the rule of all, and demaigogues uiay fail to say so. They willf say of us as t,iihni of preach in the market liouse, but nobodv will listen to mine says of his dog;;s you aprioaeh the dcc>i sill, tie then,. Corporations, which under the pretence of dog will run ip to you lookiug ferociously, as if li, public good, have obtained charters and then violated were going to tear vou to pieces -But the old iltin ever y proper public int(rest, onily subservini private will cry out in his pecutnIa sharp tone of voice, "Doii't interm'est, may well feiar, for they will receive the ani- be afraid, the dog won't bile." So they wil say of the m1I1dversions aud attacks of fi'eeinen. Or does my demorats,eif we ful to m0t tie 3nqialifi d cight el refr'erd fromii Butler, (Mi. V ic) mean to assert, thal peal into the conistituitioii. Tliey Awill si,y of tihe demowh4c.- a corporation does violate -its powers, its clia- crate, "they ca baik,,buit ti)y wol,'t i)ite" The pe0 t{:,r aloid 1o0 be irpealed? Certai.nvl he does not pie will hereafter justly muistrmet the democratic party, me tliat but still his doctrine leads to it, and his and men will with j'stice cill ius deniagogt, for it wilt S'l5ff.cb: w as a.+ h in defince of the dislihonest and i become obvious to thie most liniiid, that our actions do, ol".Pressive, as of the lione-t aiid uo-'Tending corpor- not correspond with our speeches, iid that we are afraid attoe. to nct upon our ptinciil.'s Mr. BATES n ow vov,d;ibt the Couvention ad vft w asdk-, is, that, the Legislatur —,e shall possess IWhri 1~l,ichi was agre -d to. tb',; ci,;ceticii to exercise this pe re eq,1uitablyand journ.w th,b. oaly q'iestioia is, whether y-ou have confidence in SEVENTY-FiFfi DAY. that body that they will do so? Mi'. ARC!tBOLD (in his seat.) Undoubtedly. e' e 1':a,c as much confidence in the Legislature as the 9 o'clock, A.M. ge,'it~laaian from tiamilton. Thel ori,ve(ition met, pursoant to adieu n meit iti.. /LEEMELIN. If you have confidence in the Mc[r. BARNT, piesented a petitioi eoil Jaiaes Jdc gislature what are you afraid of. Willouglibv and forty-seve(ni others, citiz+'ens of Ohio,. praying that the Coniventioi niay fori a R,epubieai, Ar ARCHIBOLD. I am afraid of anairchiy. Constitution, and also that, they will not pielibit by Air. PR,EEMELIN. Wi'ho will bring about anarchy? constitutional provision, the use of ardent spirits: Mr. ARCHBOLD. The demagogues by cheati'g Which wa read by the Secretary. t~i~r,~ pe,Ple. 1119 Wiieli -wa,, read by th Secretary.It is, in; the, fortthi: peonle.lai"'od lowing words' I, r. PEE.MELII~. Alih' are yo" there!! afraid of T,, tlb, C,,/it,tional dcieago'ues, afraid of the freedlom of speech? He WI', h'itn citi"' hmma'le tic c not 0e. iOr people act not from violent temn- + i, (f -t a ii a pmishm io p)orary + excitemets. Tiiey rule throuLigh the ballot prohihii the fi ss' 0+ *icol'iil and: bhx. or N is -lihe people of one counte, that i-miles,no po.~our.e~w~ caphie f di tati:t tooir own o,sce, e; e:oal xcit eciit caen prevail,for it we ill raquiii a [()t 0 V(, ci,l'i'. of tie nin'aiit~y of all the menibers of the General Assembliv,l tl, p,ivili;:e o fi. to efyc the:-peal. Sir, I abi-iir it again, that these natica! poiion tie l iio i at sp iii gentieieinii iiav e uo confidence in the Legislature, and i ican,ji'ios toi a les tre stil is ii -lie people.'lie people tliev picture to theijucve — I' ainch Mr. TO0W'NSHE,'ND, presented a petition fio,.m thesle a s a mnob in a Gakthue~h ene Aaroi Andrews anid sixty-seveni others, citizeus of' rat sex~vl i a Fre,.ichiAsseii-blv, verily the fears of thei sm iierily thee. afrid. Loracinin county, prayinig that a clauise be inserted irc. the niw constitutioii, prohibiting the Legislature, Si, the lMitory of Ohio in referenice to flus sulaject., fi com passiug any lax legahlixig t raffi~ in spirituous la:: been the his, torv of wrongs, witbeut parallel in tiquori. thei world, -ned patcien aho norn b~y the people. What Mr. AIICI-IBOLD, piesiited petitions from Joseph: cerporaaioin Is clearly carried out the intention of Johnson and tivo hucdredt atid live olbers, citizenthe law, eae+tiing them? WAhat corporation does net mud from 14-abta L. Johnson atid 0one houndred and nlower Oii exclusiver privileges and exclusive immuiii- forty-five etbeis, ladics-ef 3Monroe ceen~ty, eii the' ties. Tu rapike ro ad companies have dciio perhaps sm u c the least wrong, but.sill even they nave often yicla- Said petitions5 wece severally referred to the selcetc edthe rights ofte people, evnthe;- senietimes do committee ontec subject ofrealingadetsprs ~;erred r-epcal. But the peoiple have heen) patient arid Mr. ST A;NTON- 3/I. iPresident: I ask the me~duendarlag, oo muche so for their cown good. genec of the Convecntion for a nmoment, to cimble mao 2130 OO1110 CONVTENTION DEBTAES —AoNDAY, DECFMBER 30. to repeal, alter and amend. If it is not so, every ob ject of our political organ.izationi is defeated. Gentlemen appear to apprehenld, that should the right of repeal be established in the constitution, that therefore, ev(erv act of incorporation must be repealed. Our tu rnipilkes, rail roads and bridges, must be thrown open to the public. No-w Mr. Piesidei:t, it would ap pear to me, that this is expressing great disii ust of the le gislative power, as well as of the people, and (oes very far, to establish the opinion, that corporations a r e of too sacred a character, to be subjects of legisla tive control. The Legislature is the guardiian of the general wel fare, it is not to be presumed, that they will repeal any act of incorporation, ounless the public interest imniperiously demands it. When the public interest shall deinaud it, it is uot onlv their right, but it be comes thei duty, as the representatives of the people, to resumle those powers conferred upon corporators iii imaical to the general welfare, upon such just and eqtl it able terms, as in their jud(mgnelt, would appear to be right, and proper.. But w-e are told that the courts of the State and of the United States have decided that acts of incorpo r ations are conitracts, ald that being such, Legislatures Thave no power to repeal, alter or amend theri. That, Mr. President, is the v,ery reason'alhy I want to in clude that power in the co)nstitution. In order to prove t he correctness of their doctrine, ge"ntleiie bring up theli( decisions of courti,,, as if these decisions were eto be binding uponus. No'w I have uo disposition to treat with disrespect the decisions of the courts, except so far as tlhey conflict with the majesty and power of the people; Fiit if geintlemoen suppose that the labors of this Convention are to be controled and coiunteracted, by the decisions o' tribunals existing aender its provisions, thev will find themselves mistaken. But'ae are told that the "faith of the State" is invol ved in thi. mnatter, and that twe can not declare that the legislature shall have power to repeal all acts of inrcorporation-those now in existence as well as those hereafter to be grainited —withliout a violation of that "faith." I cannot see the application of this argum-nent to the question in debate, for I know of no citizen of Ohio, beloniging either to the whig or the democratic party, weho is not in favor of upholding the faith and credit of the State. But my colleague, (Mr. VANCE,) also desires to press iupoi us the binding force, "the validity of contracts," in this case. Does hlie mean to be understood that all acts of incorporation are "contracts?" Mr. VANCE of Butler. I do not. Mr. KING. Hoiw then can the gentleman apply his remarks, upon which he laid so much stress, with regard to the "validity of contracts," and the imaperious necessity tlint we should preserve the "faith and credit" of the State by recognizing the binding force of contracts? Sir, I do not believe that nmy honorable o ollea,ue really thinks that an act of incorporation is a "contract," in the sense in which that term is used in the Constitution of the United States. But I am at a loss to underst,and awhy he should spend so much time iil arguing upon the hindiung force of contracts wil connection with the question upon the right of the letisal tune to repeal all icts of inicorporation, when the public interests shall require sucsh repeal. In the course of theremarnk made byv oy cllcagile on Saturday, and while he was advocatiiigthe propri - ety of coenpensatiug individual members of a cerporation for the peculniary damages caused by the repeal of a charter, which the legislature might declare w antagonistic to the public interests, I etiqaired of to correct an error, in the report of the proceedings of the Convention, whichl cannot nlow, be corrected in anv o ther'way. In the Ohio State Journal report, of the remarks made by me on the fiat iist., on tle subject of taxing State Bonds, asi reported in the D aily Jo turnal of tle 24th irst., a portion of the spee-h, maing about onethird of a col"fma, is taken from its place, made the close of my reiiiaiks and given as the begianindi of t.hetie, b defore he e introduction of Amin Bev; avho, it will be recolleted, wnas introduced before I codmenced. Following this fra gmis pentt of the speech, coines in a jocular con-versation between the gentleman from Autgflaize, (Mr. SAWYSrE,) and some others, whilst w"aiting the introduction of the august visitor. Then comes the introduction of Amin Bey, the address of the President, and the reply to it. Then the commencement and conclusion of the speech. The Statesmani report is correct, with the exception of a few typographical errors of no great consequence. the Journal report has the same typographical errors, and was published one day after t.tie'tSsatnsman, thus showing that it was copied fromhtle Statesman report. This shows thattlhe blunader was made in theJournal office. The Journal containing the speech, was read here on the 25th, or 26th, I am not sure which. On the day after the receipt of it, I addressed a note to the pun,blishers of the Jourinial, advising them of the error, and requesting its correction before publication in the volumne of debate. On yesterday, I read it inl book form, in the samie mutilated condition. I am therefore compelled to retort to this, as the only mode left, of correcting it. I ktowv it is' customary on such occasions as this, to exonerate reporters, printers, and all concerned, from all blame, and to charge it all to inevitable accident. I shall not do violence to my conviceioins of truth, b-v saying any such thing. To say the least, it asas the restult of the grossest negligen-ce, and ought to impair public confidence ill the correctness of the entire work. It is due to the reporters, to say, that I revised the auayiuscript of the speech, and found it reported with more than ordinary accuracy. Air. SAWYER, loved that ttle Convention take up .he report of the stanidingi corem ittee on the Legislativte Department; wahich was agreed to. The question being on agreeing to the amendment of Mr. TtUMPIrPnEVILLE, as almended: MLI. KING desired the indulgence of the Convention for a few rmomeints, awhile he endeavored to define his position upon the important subject now under considieration, and he was the more anxiou,s to do so, on account of the difference in opinion betwNveen his colleague, (Mr. VANCE of Butler,) and himself-a difference however, which he thought when they came to understand each other perfectly, would disappear. The question now under debate, involves the right elf the General Assembly to repeal acts of incorporation. That the legislative power of the state, does possess this right, is a principle of the democratic party, for the triunph of which, it has long contenided. Thiat party has always holden that the power to enact laws, and to repeal such lawvs as have been enlacted, is al] attribute of the popullar sovereignty, which cannot be parted with. The object of all legfislation7 is to provide such laWTS as shall best promot~ the general welfare, and this is as appxlicable t~o its funXctionls in the creation of corporate bodies, as to all others. If the general welfare is not. promoted by thle laws that are passed, or by the acts of incorporation that are established —if on( the contrary, the public interest is prejudiced, what is the remredy? The body which had the power to enact, has reserved the power 201 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, DECEMBER 30. ' ration. The views that I now express, are those that have governed me every where and in every relation of life-they have governed me as a private citizen, as a member of the Legislature, and are governing me as a Delegate of the People in this Convention. I sin cerely regret the necessity of differing from my col league upon this question, and I may be allowed to express the hope that before this question is finally decided, it will be found that we do not differ so much as it would seem that we now do. The question being upon agreeing to Mr. HUrMPiRP. VILLE'S amendment as amended, to wit: Add to the end of Sec. 35, the following: "Prov-ided that the General Assembly shall have power to repeal or revoke any charter of incorporation, now or here after granted, and the principles and franchises of any incor porated company, upon such just and equitable terms for the collection and payment of debts, and tne disposition of the property of such company as they may provide" Mr. ARCHBOLD rose and said: Mr. President. As in the course of this debate, fre quent allusions have been made, to opinions known to be entertained by my friends and myself, and as none of them seem disposed to say anything, I shall attempt a reply. The gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAWYER) has admonished us of the value of timne, and the ne cessity of brevity in our remarks. Aware of the pu rity of that gentleman's intentions, I assure him, and the Convention that I shall not utter one word except under a sense of duty-not one word for mere display, or to court newspaper notoriety. It is due to justice to add, that if the session shall be prolonged-if our work shall become tedious, that result will be produced by the instrumentality of those men, who insist on embodying a whole code in the constitution, by the men who insist on carrying their extreme dogmas into that instrument. If men will make propositions, and propositions known to be objectionable to many mem.. bers on this floor, they will be debated-they will be resisted; they ought to be debated-they ought to be resisted. Let gentlemen who agree with us in desiring a short sessioni, agree with us also in confiniing our la bors to the formation of an ORGANIC LAW. I bespeak a kind hearing from the Convention, while engaged it defending as I verily believe, not only the interests of my own constituents, but of all th e aneun of small and moderate means throu ghout the State. If gentlemen wish to ask questions I would prefer tha t they should do so towards the close of my remarks, they sha ll t he n be answ ered accordi sg to th e best of my poor ability. I make this request because a sud den interruption of my train of argument sometimes produce slight embarrassment. It is well known that I have not a hard face. A man rising in the midst of such all ASSEMBLY AS THIS, may well be excused, if he manifestsomne slight trepidation-some little nervous agitation. It is profound respect for his audience, which overawes him. It is the immense array of rmor al and mental force which he discovers all around him, that makes him solicitous for the result. The same man might possibly do himself no disgrace in going on a forlorn hope, or in scaling a couniterscarp. Rightly understood then, these manifestations of slight nervous agitation, are the most forcible appeals to the kindness and generosity of as audience. No mall is so affected ill the presence of an assemnblage, which does not impress himn profoundly. Since this debate began,. we h1ave repeatedly heard in this Hall, the language of intimidation. Gentlemhen rise and exclaim, "You have no confidence in the people," "Youl distrust the people," "You do not believe inl the virtue or inltelligence of the people," ";You care nothing for the interests of the people,'} "You have no svmspathy with the people,"'You do not love the people." There can be no mistake as to the him u pon what principle he would refund t o corpora toru se the e amount of ney they ight be supposed to lose by a r epeal of their cha crter? Take heae t e gated-the case which he himself cited-"the Iam iltori Bridge Company." I f t hi e General Assembly must pay heavy damages to corporators every time a c harter is repealed, that fact alone will p reven t th e resuming of any franchise by tie State, no matter how tduchs the reuant thereof miatv have been abused. Ts r. ARCHBOLD. Why ten desire then do you desitrethat the power of re peal, acting on all charters now ill aex istence, as well as upon all hereafter to be granted, .shall be conferred on the Legislature? lr. KlING. Because th at power rightfully belongs to the eople, and thev should have freedom to exer (ise it, throoughstheir lrpresentatives, at all times and on all occasions, wher e and when they may deem right. If corporators ar e afraid t o tr ust the people with this power, that f ear is, of itself, a good argument in favo r of the re tention of that power by the people. There are some Desmocrats-some who class them selves wit h the Democratic party-who shrink back when it is reopo sed to lay the hand of legislation uo on corporations, with the sa me freedom that legislati.on approaches any other interest in society; and they ask uLs, "whv do you seek to confer such a novel power upIon th e Gene r al Assembly?" tnr. ARCHBOLD. Why wil l not the gentledhua rn froi Butler be satisfie d if we incorporat e i n the newr Constitution a provision that all acts of incorporation hereafter granted may be repealed? Mlr. KING. Because, sir,itisupoi those very char ters,-those already in exi sten ce,-that we desi re t his D emocra tic principle to operate. Mr. CASE, of Licking Does the gentleman deny that the C our ts h av e held that acts of incorporation cannot be repealed? MNr. KING. Since the decision in "The Dartmouth College case," the Courts, it is true, have oftden de cided that charters could not be repealed by legisla tive enactment. Mr. CASE, of Licking. Then suppose that, under the provisions-such as gentlemen propose-of the new Constitution, the Legislature repeals a n atii of incorporation, hert a ea t the c otort irs appeal to the Coup ts, and they decide that the Legislature possesses and can possess no power to enact such a repeal? M r. KING. Being a "law and order" man, I suppose I should have to yield to judicial decisions. Mr. MITCHELL. We will appeal and take the case up to the People. Mr. KING. This is an Age of Progress-Progress ill political and legal knowledge as well as in the arts and sciences, and I hope for a reform in the Judiciary in this respect. But, Mr. President, if the Courts do at all timesthus protect the rights of corporations-if gentlemen are :. certain that the Judiciary will always step in bet,ween the will of the people, as expressed through their Representatives, and the corporations of the State, why are gentlemen so sensitive about incorporating the repeal principle in the Constitution? With theirl view of she case, corporations are certainly safe. But believing as I do, that the decisions of the C0ourts are wrong and adverse to the rights and best interests of tile people, I could not discharge my duties to my constituents, nor satisfy mny personal (convictions o~f what is right in the case, didc I not do all in mny power to) assert~ in the organic law of the State, what I believen to be an inherent and inalienable right of the People. Thusb much with regard'Lo acts of inccrpo. 202 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, DECEMBER 30. on the left, (Mr. GaOESBECK) as to what would be the value of the stones of a turnpike or the timbers of r. plank road, or the rails of a rail road, after the corporation is dissolved and forbidden further to act. He has done justice to that part of the argument. But it is not to be supposed that the General Assembly will wrong, or oppress companies of associates engaged in enterprizes of internal improvement." In the name of Heaven when did this sudden co]fidence in that body spring up here!!! How often, when in order to abridge the code and shorten our labors, we have been inclined to leave matters to the discretion of that body, have we heard it described as weak and wicked in the extreme. Words have almost failed gentlemen to depict their utter distrust, their want of confidence ia its wisdom or its goodness. Our worthy opponents are not entitled to both sides of the argument. They cannot reasonably ask us to concur with them in framing one portion of the organic law, on the theory that the Assembly will be w,ak,worthless and profligate in the extreme,and another portion on the opposite theory that it will be all wisdom, benevolence and justice. Gentlemen well know my senitiments as to that body, they know whether I am "to its faults a little bliid, and to its virtues very kind" or not. They know how often they have called me to my feet to engage most reluctantly in defence of thie peoples' lepresentatives, although as a very humble member of a very numerous body, only one in one hundred and eight, I nmust be entitled to a very small portion of the odium, which they have seen fit to heap upon it without measure or stint. But when did blind and implicit confidence in mere legislative majorities get to be a firm article ine the statesman's creed,in our representative republics? If we have no distrust of majorities what are we do ing? Why are we forming a Constitution? Does ,lot every man who assists in our labors from day to day,practically express his distrust in mere unrestricted legislative majorities? If no such distrust is felt, why do we not simply frame a short article, organi izinig a legislative department and close our labors, leaving everythinig at large to the wisdom and discretion of the majority? What is the rational end and aim of a CONSTITUTION except to be a restraint upon the strong and a protection to the weak? What rational design has it except to curb the majority and shield the minority? It is a charter which the latter have a right always to hold in their hands, always to spread out before the eyes of power as the enduring record of their rights and the means of their defene. What shall we say. then of the wisdom of a Constitutional provision, which not only empowers, but stimulates a majority, to make retroactive edicts against the property and rights of their opponents,after quarrels and controversies arise, after prejudice begins to speak from her ten thousand throats, after all miainner of extraneous influences grow rife. If put to define law as it ought to be, I would say that it is the deduction of calmn reason, calmly made from an extensive acquaintance with human nature and humnan affairs, as to what ought to be done by the citizen or left undone. The definition as given by jurists is not very different. "Law, they say, is a rule prescribed. commanldin g what is right, forbidding what is wrong." it is rREscma~.D. Writtenl out before hand —written when the legislative authority is calm. |When its reason is unclouded by the prejudices arising } froml particular quarrels and contentions, When its sagacity is aroused to consider what is wise, just and Iexpedient for the community or the future; not to de vise means of punishing opponents for the past. It is a rule prescribed, known to those who are to yield Persons to whom this language is, addressed. It is a ddressed to seven or eight ituen on this side of the Hall, to my particular friends and myself. The short l is t of n a mes might as well be read out. Thae nar e of the people is a name of powe r, a nane of mablic. It fills the m in d w ith vast ideas, ikwe the sight of t he v as t illimitable ocean, or of mountain masses piled on mountain masses, the Andes or the Cordilleras, the Alps or the Appeninies. Like the conception of objects in nature, the most august and th e most sublime. Residi ng in the million s t hat inhabit this great u nion, we behold an aggr egate of mental, moral and physical force, perfectly overwhelming. Yet when this great name is invoked, to overaw et ur e ime, to turn me into a trembling slave, to make mn e f orego my conictions of right, t to make me speak, and vote, and act on this floor, in defiance of the voice o f conscience anwd of duty, my heart rises in INSTANT REBELLION. If the people of good old MONROE, ar e w illing to be represented by a man breathinthe air of moral purity, honest throughout, soul, body and spirit, t m rtocif they are willing to bhe r epre s e nted by a man, all whose aims a re h is COUNTRY'S, his GOD's and TPcUTI-I'S, my humble abilities ar e v er y much at their s ervice. But if they ex p ect me to form on e of a ban-d of polished and eloqueilit, o r mute and tr embling "slaves," from the eastern, western, or middle'"provinces," I shall disdain to mingle with the ignoble crowd. Gentlemen can effect nothing bv covert thre at s of loss of election s. T hey cannot lay hold of my mind, bv the presentation of such motives. I have no political ambition. Once indeed, when sunk ten thousand fathoms deep, in the pit of a dversity and n d digence, I may have ladaspirations of that kind, but time and experience, have wrought a change. A place in legislative assemblies, iSs not necessary to mv happiness, per haps does no t eve n increase it. My heart can bound joyously, my blood can run. and my pulse can beat quickly, whe n far away from such places.' I indulge no affectation of being in different to the good o r ill opinion of mankind. H e that is so, must be m ore o r less than mortal man. I can even worship the image of popu-! lar favor. with something like the fervors of an eastern devotion. But if that worship demands one arti-I fice, one sacrifice of trut h a nd candor, I shall renounce I i t as a costly and forbidden IDOLATRY. I will not I listen to the voice of an upbraiding conscience, when my locks turn white, and my eyes grow dim. Let me alone therefore, let me alone, I will pass on in a right line to my destiny. Gentlemen insist on granting to the General Assembly an unlimited, unqualified right of repeal of all charters of incorporation either heretofore or here-' after granted. We do not deny this right of repeal but we insist that when the property of "Associates" is taken away by mere legislative enactments it ought to be paid for, just as the property of other citizens must be paid for, when taken for the public use by legislative action, by an exertion of the right of eiitnent domain; that when it is alledged that the associates have forfeited their property or their franchises by crime or delinquency, reason, sound policy, the principles of jurisprudence all demand, that the accused should be sent into some coxurt,where the fact can be inlquired into. Genltlemene tell us that it. is not to be supposed that the majority in the General A~ssembly woulld do injustice, or take away men's prop- erty iniquitously.'And the proposition under discus- O sion is in substance to empower the Assembly to re-I peal, all charters, upon sulch equitable termns for the! payment of debts and distribution of property, as that| body may in its discretion see fit to p~rescribe. "II shall not repeat the significant question of my friend I 203 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MTONDAv, D:'CnIBTER 30. created for purposes of internal inprovemient, railroads, plank roads, tiurnpikes for insl,aice, mnav in various n ways injure and offecrid individludtls aid the public. We do not denv the ig t of repel, lb)ut we say, that v when exerte(l bv legislativce p)Aweri, that power should proceed on legislative groiinds. It takes away the property of associates, becaiuse the public interest requires the surrender. It tal'es awa y the land of aii individual, because the publlic interest demands the surrender. But in bo+h cases,,he duty is imnperative and it would seem alike implerative, to pay the value of t,he property of whlich the citiJzenis aredeprived without their consent. 1l3it if the association is acciu,ed of delinqiiency, every priliciple of equity as well as of sound policy dema,is that it should be sent to some triburnal, where par-ies can be heard and the facts inquired into. To conidemn a mIaii by legislativeeniactment, is to con demnhim r tvilout a hearilg. No bounds can be set to the eicr rachliinents of a judiciary, wvliclh is at the same timiie armed with legislative power. Hence it has become a cardi nal maxim am,iiongst tile doctrines of our Anglo Saxon libertly, that the powers of goverinmenit should be kept distiict, and that the legislative atnd judicial funlcions, should never be exercised by'he samie bod y of men. The doctrine is the offsprinig of experience. It originated in the felt ev%rils of th-e opposite course. It has been recomimenided and defeilnded by our Hampdens, our Puussells, our Sydnneys, ou,ir Nladisons, our Mar,shalls, and or,r Storys. But perlhaps these mighty nanes create no selisation ill the be, ast, of the gentlemanl from Ha,,niltOlo, (Mr. 9:t.1m,ix.) lhen let me tell him that the same doctrine wa:; preached by Montesq,ieu- in his Spirit of Laws. He proclaimed it irn the very teethi of power, in tie very Face of the orl'upt court of Lewis the fifteenthi. Oh how ii niv inimii-ost soul I love the ])- wtxo has the courage to t,Ike the part of the weak against the strong, of the feeble against the po werful!! The flatterers of pover are the sarmie in all coluintribi,s, in all ages. The African,wolrslhipper of power groiws frantic in the fervors of his (dvotioni and roars out. obedience. Known before hand,so tlat every good cit izeni may uniderstaind want to do and what to forbe-ar. It is mockery to call an expostfacto edict a law. Noth ingea sancti fy i t- nothing c a n justify it. The miaid who livea un der suc h dorminio n, is a slave, dwell where he,nay. Constitlttions are formed asa law to sovereign powers adi for the Drotection of the weak. They aore inteshd ed as beacon light s whic h ough t to flame hiish to give the alarin when tlie passions of tehe majority are, Ibecom ing exorbita nt. W hen stormy majorities, either de luded by sophistry o r o ve rawed or deceived by outside influences, invacde the just righits of mi norities,'he constitution is to be appealed to as a means of wthrnitlg to the honest. yeomatiry of the country, t o f lok over to the stadiiard of tihe oppriessed,atid gve th e m strength to r es i st aggression. But now it is gr avely p ropo s ed, not ourly to destroy ,-he la st citadel of th e weak, but to give constitutional sanctiot o t,he oed exorbitalnt passioi of majorities, w hen heated by piejudice they d estroy the cproperty and an niiliate the rights of their oppone nts, by retroactive edicts. Ilas history uttered no voice of warning? Do s tormy factionis never persecute each other? Have l egislative prtos cripti ons and massacres with toheir at tendant horror s been unheard of? What lesse adotes the. his tory of wRom e, of dFrance, of the Seven United P rovinces teah us on this head? Is the history of the AngIo Six oi t race and even. o f ou r own free and h appy country, devo id of all insitruction? It is uide niaple t iat one at least of the gStates of this Union,was engaged in a furious civil war a li ttle before the adop tion of the National csionstitution, a.i oters sIeeme d on the point oi i h1tes5tin Ge convulsions. I rooight call atteiw tiooi to the ltittle republics of ancient Greece, inhabited by men who still clain our reverence as the master spirits of the old world, whose precocity in the arts, fnore espe cialy tho se arts which tira6ra life, is still a subj ect of astoptishmrTekt. Here MNr. REEstsELIN rose and enquired if u Ir. ArCHBOLD ti hought ther e was anyt hi oc- similar iy n our conditioni to that of the little old Greek democr-acies. M~r. ARCHBOLD proceeded: The gentleman and tlo thse who vote wi th him, are intentionally no doubt doing their utmost to create cause of discord and convulsion, similar to those which at tiNoes distracted the Greekd St ates, No association will ever be destroyed or have its property annihilated by its owni- political friends. The absolute unqualified right of repeal for which the gentlermran contends, is only a weapon wvith which fraction may war upon faction', with which triuimplhant majorit ies may oppress and iDiure their opponents. Now this very war of facit.ion upon faction and the stormy passions thus engendered, I understanid to be the principal causes, hich so soon eniveloped the bright sun of Greek liberty, in a pall of gloomy clouds and caused it to descend into a night of misery and barbarism, which has scarcely yet known a morning. It was probably the adoption of tlhe nation,al constitutionl, with its prohibitioii of these angry retroactive edicts employed by faction as a means of offenlce against factionl, thiat has saved us hitherto frmno a simiilar fate. There is still another objection to thlis absolute uln- qualified power of making retroactive edicts as con- tended for by the gentleman from Hamuiltonl, (Mr. RErMILIN.) It vests legislative andl juldicial functions in the same hands, in the ~ame body of mlen. Gentlemenl themselvres, put it uponl that groulnd. They argue strenuously and at great len~.gth, for this unlim- ited right of repeal, because, as they say, associationls "fh~rra? for- thie son of th~e Suni, Hliira fin- the rothe of the Moon I,, all this,rteat wvo,-ld, there is io!ie Like Qiash loo! th-ie olv oJoe Des,-enidled fi-,'n ihe r-eat l'aloon! lha'ioon! D~esellfled frolln tlie gr-eat haitonu! BIlffa!oe of the naaloes!n and 1ull of l ui aas! H;T sits ol t a thr o Se of his eter nies' S ptla's A',l~ if he tw an)ts others to play at foot-b)all, Ours aie at his service, all! al! a!l! ligabeoo Joo! Hus-al oo Joo! Htil to r-oyal Quiasil,oo! Emip)eror and Lor-ds of Timoleleeoo." Here the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAWYEr,) rose to a point of order, to wit, that tl-e gentleman from Mionroe was wandering from his subject. Mr. ARCHBOLD. But I w1ant to linish the picture -you might as well stop a painter who was merely sketching the head and shoulders, (great laughter and cries of "go on," "go on." Mr. ARCHBOLD resumed. Then from this dark land we come back to Europe. Eurole, a ianame which produces an electrical thrill ini our nerves as the birth place of our aiicestors, the home of science and of arts which either ssustain or adorn life. But the worshippers of power are there also. Thiev flock to the court of Vienna or St. Petersbnirgl-Stippose the latter. They draw near the throne -ad 1)(;Wii ig low address thelmselves to the mighty Nicholas with eoneyed words. "We are so fully convinced of the perfect equity of your majesty's intentions that nothing can add to the strength of our convict,ions. Not oinly so, but the matchless wisdom which characterizes all your ri aies 204 OHIIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, DECr-:'MOEEP 30. tv's measures, overwhelms us with astonishment. dom, of all perfection, and that without mixture of lever yet has a throne eu this planet been filled by weakness or error. And that they themselves, the such a hippy union of wisdoi, streigtli and good- said People of Movamensing, beyond all others, poshess as tha-t whic we discover in yours, as to whetlier sc5s all these qualities in the most eminent and suother world's supply a parallel, it would be audacious pr lative degree, and that the rascal who presumes to to conecture." (Laughter.) doubt or dispute anv of these positions, dserves in J3ut w,e must tell your majesty there is a set of sterin stant execution under the Lyvnch code. Then lie rude ungratefui filowvs, aud onie of them holding excites the loiv aniial pass'ions of thoei natures your majesty's commissions too, who have the -wick- against the rich aud the aristocratic; then he fires edne.;s to grumble at your royal government. They thtem wiiIi burning and deathless indignation against say that your iajests r t ictie ve edicts and ukascs the stubborn sons of toil, whose daily and nightly laun;;ettle pr;iperty. That men are then stript of their bors and long continued fruialitv ]ave suiiroinded rights and depived of their possessins. They even them with property and its coinfoirts. And lie not at time, proceed to such a pitch of treasonable au- obscurely hints, that a g,eneral plunder of such feldacity as to pretend that in so much as your ijnestv lows, would be hiighly proper and,?pedient, though is possessed of absolute unlimited legislaitive poweri, probably some controliigii ceinsaice reuders it adyou ought to delegate your judicial authority to your visable to defer the desig,n foi thle preseit. The best jiidges and thean not initerfere with their decisions, in jud.4e of the force and imipressivehiess of his eloquence particlan ea es, by issuing edicts or orders immedi- is the good and peaceable citizen, wae daily and nightate.v from the throne. Is it possible that such men ly treunldes and turns pale and sicken under the casn longer ie permitted to hold you r majesty's comn- mild diniiiion of the ala i und' si INSr.Es a'id A.'ilisioens in the army, or navy, or in civil emp loyments. oars and regulators of Movamensiul Surely if your ainaestv's mitiitakn lenity shall leave Tlihus I have eudea-vorecl to.,live ai slight sketch of thieimi this side of SIBra,rA you will instau,tly dismiss the worslhippers of power, as they exhibit thneiselves them, from your royal service, and fill their places in three continents. Thliere may be sliglit shades of wiihli your m-]je.tv's true and faithful friends." difference, but they are the same identical ipecies of Here Mr. PEEhELIN euqtire,l "Does the gentle- animals, in all ages, in all climates. I ee pariicular, man from Monroe contend that there is any similarity they agree precisely. The y all address tlheioselves tin the condition of the Einperor of Russia as a sover- power, and thev never recunmend nodreraion. Thiev reign and thiit of the People of thti country "use no sedatives, but they urie Power to violent ind Mr. ARCHIBOLD. Certainly I do. Considered as exorbitant efforts. Tlieii motives are the samethe l)ossessors of POWER, as the fountain of honor, "thev bend the supple hii"i' of tle knee tha t thrift of office, of emolument, of all that ambitious ineii in a follow fi,winlng." Doesi i,iy iman doubt titl? covet, the People as a Sovereign are infinitely strong (Go'to the theatre; there you may see act of co,,irtier's er, than the Emnpeior of Ru ssia. There is always in surrounding a tragedy thronec, and.reeing' the ear of fact r limitation to the power of every despot, howe ver majesty wvitih much inore soft, a0d heireyved pliriace han absolute lie may be in theory A l atent oiposifien l- niy republican tongue can utter or repeat..Th curways exists and is ready to staft l tiio tremendous ener- tain falls, the scene shifts. The curtaiii again rises, gy upon any unusuu,l or exorbitant exertioni of author- and you behold men si ri~dht daggers against a itv. Bu,t where is the power that could for a moment fallen despot, treaiig lii withl the maiost opprobrious dream oif making forcilile resistance to our sovereign, laniguae, and loud in theiir praises ofI piopular liberty. tie People, possessing as they do an aggrega,te of phys- Nothing but voutilifil greee.s oiuldi fall into thie teal imetal and moral force,, absolotely overwhelming error, that the'latter set of men difler in hubits feelin the contemplation. And this force is all their owi ings, opinious aud prejudicf tromii the flrmer. Everv and can never be turned against them. A sovereign uan Leows that they are the same old set of stockwhose throne is so impregnably secure as theft of the actors, hvieo have distributed theinselves to their v~ariPeople, may well tolerate soein geuerosity of seuti- ous parts accordin" to their views of their own inment, sorie freedom of thou(lit, some mnanly boldness terest. So the wor-hipii)ers of power, whom we have of speetch, in the servants engaged in the public coun- been dascitbin, ure in reality ACTiNC for their own cils and need not always demand to.be addressed in the interests under all the various disguises which they slavish laugu;ige of Asiatic sycophants. may choose to assume. In the same degree that our Sovereign is stronger But the little hand of men on this side- of the flal) and more secure than the sovereigns of Europe, so is wrio are determined to go w}ere principiile goes, and to the American flatterer of power a more pertinacious stop wherei principle stop.,, are rel)roaicliedi as not loving animal than the European. For those animals are the Peonle, as h:ving no sympathy with the feeliugs, here; they have crosse the cean in great numbers. the wishes, the prejndices of the peolile; more especialWould to Heaven that they and their ancestors had ly of the more n l y olf thmoeunotunate andi~ indigent classes of the staid on the other side. 01, how halppily we would people. The very instincts of my at ure rouse ime in have lived withouit them. (Loud Laug'hter.) We opposition to the charge. It is not true. It is the very were eloqtuently and impressively reminded on Satur- r-verse of the TvUTTH. I know the otigin of some of day last,'Of hlie iajesty and force of the People, as pro- the men who are thus accused, and I know that they ceeding' fro m some orator on the stalls in one of the have in their own persons experienced every evil that mirke lieoses of this city, and -addressed to the list- now weighs down the eneigies of the poorest.f Ohio, ro'aus roud. I issai no to e plit tothat they have ini their own persons encountered every speauk of the preseut coinpany. I will not permit my difficulty which now opipos'es the pirogress of the most A~~~~~~~~~~~~~in'iiiwriprofp'ertsifohipotat udigent, of the most uniifortunite. Campbell's Sea boy in this city. (Langbter.) "cradled on his rock" never suffered greater haruslips, Bait stoplpose one of thre species to get en a stall in a never driink deeper or bitterer drauahits of human sor ~i'rret ~oiie ii MotoneuingMoymensng, hatrow than were quaffed ini early life,1by somne of the verty twin name with anaichy arid itifumy. Antid'in the prostu erahd leng course of his fi'antic declamation; he tells the atteutivle crowd, in substance, as eccasioii offers, that,.poor chilet of dtanger, eers'iig of ithe s.*or'm, the People arc a visible manifestation of all beauty,~e a i b -e,iii v c yiiit tofi all strength, of all truth, of all courage, of all wis- S courgeidci h0 ther wiiindsiiie, i-dcralidnt siroek,. 205 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, DECEMB:R 30. Here Mr. RANNEY, of Trumbull, called out to Mr. ARCHBOLD, that the Ohio StateJournal was speak ing very kindly of him. Mr. ARCIIBOLD rejoined: "Then ]3irnam wood has surely come to Dunsinane." I am thankful to the Journal editor for speaking kindly of me, and I should be thankful to any other humanl being, for the same favor. But it makes me a little nervous to hear of it in the nmiddle of a speech, for I fear that the Journal's kindness is mixed with much, very much thatI should deem cruelty. But to resume the subject. The question arises upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Medina, vesting in the General Assembly the unquali fied, inlimited right of repeal over all corporations, at the mere will and discretion of a majority. Gentle men have in argument spoken of the amendment as principally concerning associations for internal iu provements, such as railroad, plankroad and turnpike companies, though in terms the provision is broad enough to embrace others. It seems to me that the question may be briefly stated thus: Does a man who associates with his neighbors and subscribes one hundred or five hundred dollars to aid in making a thoroughfare deserve as to that property to be treated as a slave, to be liable to have it taken from him by others, without trial by judge or jury, without oppor tunity to hear his accusers, without witnesses and without proof. Gentlemen generally concede, that associations for internal improvements are necessary. Sums of money will never again be granted out of the State Treasury for internal improvement purposes. An enlightened public opinion will no longer tolerate such an abuse. Then we need the principle of asso ciation, in order to construct works of internal imp roveemient for the same reaso n that we need governI erenment itself, that is, in orde r to reme dy the weakness of individuals. The indi vidual man is insufficie nt. The small capitalist is insufficient without the prin ciple ef association. What will a single stm of five hundred or one thousand dollars do towards a work of internal improvement? It is plain that sinall men must have the benefit of the principle of associ ation, if they would effectuate anytlling. They need the same principle, in order to enable them to compete with the larger capitalist; in order to take away the unjust and undue advanlages which the system of the gentleman from Hamilton would give to the millionaire. This man is an immense association within himself. The man who call spare a million of dollars is just one thousand times as strong as the man who can spare but one thousand. And if the principle of combination and association is denied to the small men, his capital will take full possession of the market-will enjoy the whole field of entcrprise without competition. And the principle of association is denied to them, when it'is surroundered with such vigorous restrictions, and made so extremely perilous that no sane man, no man capable of accumulating or managing capital, will think of subscribing. The principle will operate most harshly and unequally on the different sections of the State. Some sections have their great capitalists, their opulent men, who either singly, or in connection with a very few others, are able to carry on extensive worlks of internal Tmprovement, without incorporation, And the same sections have an extensive network (of costly and valuable internal improvemlent.s, so they are inl reality but little interested in the question. Other sectrons that have suffered everything under the old exploded system of State Treasury grants for internal improvemnents, that are now paying seven fold taxes con account of that system and the debt which it incurred, have no improvements at all su "A}J the world's a stage, And all the miien- and wormieni miierely players; Andt one learn il his timie, acts milaniy parts." Let the curtain again rise and behold in your mind's eye a rough cablo in the western wilderness, containing a little fla,txen-haired child hanging over the rude couch, which contains thub wasted formn of his dying father. Death soon does his office, and the boy feels the unutterable grief of orphanhood. His mother draws the little sorrowing wretch near her knees and whispers words of cheer, " Courage, my son, every prize is r eserved for th e strongest." The scenery shifts, the acurtain again rise,s and you behold him in the fores' assailed by wintry winmnds, breathing an frost y at mosphere wasting his l ittle st rength in the rudest toils, uo til he is partially frozen on the huge truink wh ich his axe ha s brought to the ground. Another change and you may behold him in the dawn of early manhood under the sun of "fierce July," toil inlg b y t he side of sooty slaves, and chiefly distinguish ed by the irpmen se physical energy, which performs the daily tasks, onll~ imposed by humane nasters o two or three of them. Still another change, and the orp han has become a man of books and is conver sing with the ma ster spirit s of all ages, sometimes entrance and ele ctrifi ed by their burning words. Anothe change of scenery, the curtain rise. T o nce more and h is beheld as at inh abitant of Legislative Halls. AD.l here he is nmet and told tha t he does not love the pteople, t he laboring masses, thiat he has no sympa thy with their griefs, their cares, their sorrows their anxieties, ri Oh charge false to absurdity! Oh libel on ourcommon human nature!s Whe re did this child ofcalamity lear exclusiva e notions? Wihere,or hot did he acquire ariss - tocratic ideas? By what magic did he unlearn thae ser) inistincts of his being? flow did he become able tc oo violeice to all his early feelings, prejudices and t)re, possessions? There, is a popular proverb which m:) ge ntlemanl y opponents may per haps deem vulgar,,and unfit to be repeated to "ears polite." But like all other popular proverbs, it has the stamp ofsturdy good sense. It says "that habit is second n ature," it means that ever y man is just the being which his e arly education, associations, sympathies, actions and sufferittgs have made him, and that he is nothing else. That no good man everdid o r ever could become callous to the sufferings, or indifferent t o th e interests of th e ters a cla s s from which he sp rung. And accordingly, the gentleman from Heamilto n an(] myself, have taken oppotesite sides on this very prig ciple. He him self a large propretor and the representaaive of millionairest, I, a small proprieto r and the represent ative of stnall proprietors. He re M r. REEMELIN ros e and disclaimed saying that he was not at all infavor with the millionaires that thos e gentl eme n greatly preferred Mr. ARCHBOLD'S ideas to h is. Mr. ARCHBOLD proceeded. I verily believe that if the millionaires are men of calm reflection, taking a wide survey of the political horizon,they will prefer my opinions to those of thegenitleman from Hamilton. These opinions constitute a mild and beneficent systern of political philosophy which would make the action of the government "descend like the dews of Heaven" in blessings and benefits upon all, in heavy burthens and rigorous exactions upon none. But if those m illionaires are anxious merely to increase their estates without reference to remote consequences, they will greatly prefer the system of the gentleman from Hamilton, for that system does give a great and undue advantage to large capitalists, in the competi tion with meln of smaller mearns. a I " 06 An allusion has already been made to the stage. Sliakespeare says that OHIO CON\ VENTION DEBATE,-MoNDAr, DcEMaER 3). astonishment. The subject of the currency has not been mentioned in this argument. When gentlemen address me on that subject-when they explain to nme that large and improvident loans froin the banks to their customers, may dilate the currency, unsettle prices and diminish the value of coin in the coffers of individuals. without their consent,I can understand the argument. There is something for the intellect to grasp. It is true that this diminution of the value of coin will, iii any short space of time, be inconsiderable, but in a long space of time, it may become verr considerable. At all events, the principle is clearly discernible. But when a gentleman works himself into a storm of passion to depict the mischiefs and horrors of alittle turnpike or plank road company, he resembles a man going into hysterics, to describe the mischiefs and horrors of pigeons, and turkeys, and turtle doves. The gentleman from Hamnilton, (Mr. REziILLiN,) in his honest zeal, cries out that "resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." 0, it is a noble sentiment. It electrifies us. It stirs our blood like magic. It touches and rouses the deepest, and highest, and holiest instincts of our nature. But in the present instance, oh, how misapplied. "Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God," therefore, you must repeal a little turnpike company!!, "Resistance to tyrants;s obedience to God," therefore you must annihilate a little plank road company by act of Assembly!!! It does seem to me that the genitlemana is guilty of enormous extravagance in the use of rowER. He fixes up vast and extensive machinery to effect a small. object. The incongruity in the ideas, spoils the stage effect of the whole thing. He calls a God upon the stage, when no difficulty, worthy of a God, is to be overcome. He call the great [Iupiter himself forward to untie his Shoestrings. (Loud laughter.) Here the gentleman from Hamilton rose and disclaimed. He thought the gentleman from Monroe was mistaken. He had not used that sublime maxim ill such a con.-nexion. Mr. ARCHBOLD. I am not mistaken, The gentleman forgets. He -was much excited in the arguiment. A listener sitting calmly by, remembers much better. Mr. REEMELIN still disclaimed, and thought Mr. ARCHBOLD ntistaken. Mr. ARCHBOLD resumed. Well, I must concede the mnatter, then, pro forma, as the lawyers say. In point of mere politeness I must give way. But never shall I forget the torture that was inficted on m moral nature, by having its holiest instincts sported with, by seeing so much zeal and energy misplaced. -'Resistance to tyrants is, indeed, obedience to God." But it inflicts intense pain on a generous mind,to hear such a sentiment degraded by being employed on slight and trivial occasions. It fills us with profound impressions of the extreme violence and rigor of gentlemen's principles, when they have to resort to such means to sustain them. The principles which we recommend will be found to have symmetry and consistency. The propertv of the incorporator, is to have no other protection, than that of the individual. If it be necessary to take it away for the public good, we say that it can be taken by legislative enactment. on the samne termns as private property of the individual, to be paid for by the local or general fund, as the one or the other interest demands its surrender. If the associates are accused of crime, every sound principle demands that they shoulld be sent to some tribunal capable of enquiring into facts. The General Assembly cannot perform that function satisfactorily- perior to common county wagon roads, Yet now, when the icr eas e of popul ationv and wealth in thos e sections, h as been suc h as to c reate immediate expectations of being able to make internal improvements for themselves, innocently, without calling on the taxpayer, without g oading him to desperation, without legalized plunder, they ar e met ty the representa tives of more populous aeid wealthy sections with the l anguage of the sternest and most implacable hostility. "You ma y make your ro ads and lines of communb cation if you see fit, if you will a ssociate for such purposes, but the d esign s which you hav e for m ed of openinf l i nes of co ercial c om eom mun i cation through your countie s is so malignant, so inadmissible, that n addition to every other d ifficulty which we cam create, every share of stock subscribed for such purposes shall be liable at all times to INSTANT CONFISCATOr', wit hou t th e slighte st attemp t at JUDICIAL INVE TIGATION. Everv dollar so invested shall be in the situ ation of the peculium of a southern slave he minay k eep it while his master remains in a good humor." Gentleme n a re l oud in their denunciations of ex clusive privileges. They cannot be too severe upon such privileges. They will be the advocates of exc lusive privilege s s oone r than I will. But gentleme n amuse thems elves an d others wi th empty un mea ning sounds. We dem and nothin g bu t to save the mere naked principle s o f association. Give us this, and we rest content. Do we demand - any favors in point of t axati on? Certainly not. No one will pretend it. We all agree th at property th us inv ested s hall bear the sam e burthen of taxation, as all equal value inv ested ill any other mode. Perpetuitya is not essential to a cpoporation. I t ma y be, and perhap s always ought t o b e, limited to a term of years. The p rinciple of succession is all that is necessary to take in and let out me fmtbers,without an everlasting change of partnership deeds. How could a mere partnership of small capitalists, numerous enough to make a line of commercial communication, prosecute or defend any right in a court of justice. Everv change of a member abates the suit. What record could be lumbered with the long bead-roll of their names? Who shall act or speak for or, on behalf of thit unconnected multitude? Any one single obstinate, or stupid, or treacherous partner may dismiss their suit. Any one stupid or treacherous partner, may make adnmissions fatal to their defence. Who shall manage for them? Thev are all equals. But it is in vain to multiply words. If gentlemen choose to call this principle of association, an exclusive privilege, they may do s e And in order to destroy exclusive privileges, they may in effect, forbid associations. Southern masters forbid association on the part of their slaves. They individualize and they govern them. They are conisistent. Gentlemen here would be consistent if they would come out and say, that no combination or as sociation of small capitalists for important purposes, shall ever take place. Then we would know where t( meet them. But they, in words, acknowledge the principle of association to be useful, and thereby do homage to their own inconsistency. Exclusive privilegesT Does any one propose to forfeit or confiscate the property of the individual citizen without judge or julr-, or witness, or trial, or investigation? If we can g~; the same security for the property of the associate, will we ask any more? Exclusive privileges!! Well, does it give the small stockholder two votes at an election, or make him more influential as a juror, witness or arbitrator? Who is hurt by the exclusive privilege? Who is robbed? Who is injured? Who is the worse of it? The apparent zeal of the gontleman fills me with 207 them oii a p:. T'hat it is niere legalized plutnder to take the u:'ub c of the people of Ashtabula and Je,ferso, aid iseion, and Belmnont, aind Guern,sey,e anid therewith ftig t gr-eat artificial lake on our'Western border,. T:h -righitful taxationi is thle mere price of SOCIAL Oi.-,;. Titat it is not to be wantonly levied on the citiz o, nAo levied at all, except inl return for benetfit con frre d That ren enter into societies and form- Sta, aend?oi a eriieI s, for the sake of social order. That "iiO,>'!I g(vercnment is a mere aniecy for keepiiig.' I ace That an agency imniplies agen-ts a;d s 1hose agents spend their time in t h e public:vset ieR,Lf.?iae entitled to a compensation fro Iar the pbio.' I, r;.e.'Ihat telis is the true foundation of t'he taxing power.;. hat to takethe peoples taxes anld therewitih cqO< oen a comnimercial speculatioT, is to trade w il tiru.et fiild. These pzh~J.<. have been endorsed by this )ody, repeatedL. I ey have been presented i dillferet i t shapes and oiii afas ocecsions, aud have unifoirmly miet the deisie app,robation of this body. They c wll, in fut',.c ercie a coeiolinog influence over the affair s o f this T.a State. I am forbidden by the p sofound respect }-h c] I feel for this aug'ust asseibly, to regard tLhoe pniylciples, as altogether worthless and idle. But when I first broached these principles in the General Assen'cly, and mianifested invincible attachmnent lo tieir, a wj,-'ic Niagara of persecution and defamation was pcjired on my devoted head. I was described as ivevA: i;Jm a brute and more wicked than a fiend. "Worlds jaided ne perverse," for wheii every countenance is turined upon a mai in anger, wheiin every eye thya he beholds, beams indignation, the crowd around constitute tie world to himn. He cannot kn ow that a future day -,ill reverse the verdict of the present. But the corps ot tiRFASuRY GUAiDS was soon formed uDon thle oee prin,,pie of uniform and inlexorabile hostility to the sy,steii olf treasury grants for internal improvements. W,Ce soughtst allies wherever they could be found and, witthout iiniri,ig as to their motives, and we tore that system ltri from limb and scattered its carcass to the3 four winds of Heaven. I came out of that contest withm fly plumnie torni, my helmet pierced, my shield broken, my armor soiled and dusty, warworni and weary and " bleeding from idilurnerable ghastly wounds of reputation," but encouraged as I am by this Convenritich, I come out a VICTOR, A VICTOR, A and Saldu sky e t rur npike road charser. Mr. ARCHBOLD. I did not. I was not iil the Assernbly at s tihe tie of tile repeal. I will give a ley views of that nittter before I sbit downl. I was saying that icaty otmer intere sts ar- far more capablo of being ee eade thateful to the crowds that surrountd our market house orat o rs, of whom the gentleman frorie ailtoiito t old us oea Sa t tuerday last, than little turnl-ike corg orations. Thie exclusive ownership of a farm) canll be set in, a m ore odious sight, t i hat t he on ier-hipof a roavd woich passes by it. Already thhis spirit has g one forth. It is boidiy declared i.n som.ie quarters, thf,t ail property in la(ond is thea' basest tyraen-nly. Thas a I,, limdlornd is as great atn obsnurdily as an air-lord, or a water.!or(, or a sunbeamn-lor(d.'That no mtain hltas any inort right to sell tne land, than to sell the sunbeams. lIf tie g~:ntlemanl fromn Hlamiltotn supposes that no plausible foundaticD, for prejudice', no plausible thermie fo;' impassioned declamation can be found in this subject, hie is mnistakeni. His own lauded possessions can be rendered completely odious, by the very samne reasocuing,or rather declamation, which, fie employs to convinice, Us that the small capitalists combining to miake a turnpike or plank road, ought to'be placed under restrictions the most galling and the most intolerable. So the inistitutioni of marriage itself can be assailed and set in an odious light. What,coiympel two people to li*-e together! Comnpel them-i to remain together, whe; their union rmakes them miseratble, winle a separati,,nl is essential to their happiness, hoxld them t[o their contract when both wish to disclve it. The trlth is every question admnits of argulnxenits on both sides. Mathemiiatical dem-ionistration is no" to be had in politics. Statesmiienl mlust be content to sub.nit to a preponderance of reason. Will gentlemen, who have some stake in society ne-ver be done, unLsettling foundatiolns. Will they never be (done wveakening, the security for every right tlhat we held dear, or that in a civilized society makes life eligible or desirable. 1iacaulay says that the lenity and the cruelty of that odious ard worthless tyranlt James the 2d, were such as mutually to illustrate and shed infamy oln each other. feot intending to give the slightest offence, I must be permitted to say, that the love of anarchy and the love of despotism existing in some minds around nie, nroot mournlfully illustrate each other. Whether.:' tb3c,social fabric, which they ON-IO CONLiVENTION DEBATES — MoNDAY, DE cEBFR 30. 2 9 wvould rear, endu,ly weakened aud attenuated in some| Mr. ARCHBOLD demrnanded thle yeas and iiays,aiid parts, rend1ereai,irte e,and iolderous and dispropor- being ordered, resulted-yeas 21, niayb 57, is follows: ticned in others, wuld be able to stanil the shocks, YEs —Mess,s. Blair, Chambers, Clny, Cla rki, Farr, whichl time:i0d cainge will p-roduce, is nIot for me to Greene of Defialce, Greg, Hawkins, lolmes, ltuniter, Ki,g, determine. I coifess mn' doubts aind misgivings. Lidey, Patterson, Quiley, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize The gent-'e:ntti f-om Iaiititotil has called miy atten- Stebbins, Stidger, Sift, \Vay and Pri tN.,is-,bV,-ue ssrs. Arch bold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, tioii to the Cohi:, bus an-d Siandusky turnpike road. Barnett of Preble, lates. Bennett, Bli u-en sderfer, brown This then Ast regaded as an appendix to my of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahi, Case of H,ocinig, Case speech. Tl'a; cormp,auy htd a charter to make a road of Lickinig, Cool, CLrry. Cutler, Florence Gillett, G-aham, tbetween thie iv,o pl.aces of "good hard durable mate- Gra.y, Groesbeck, tamilton, Hard, Henderson, Hootman, Ho-rtoni, Humphireville, Hunt,.Johnson, Jonies, Kennon, rials." ThLi r ide it of the nicest, softest mud along Kirkroold, I arsh Lawre nce, Le ech, Lhadb,tter, Lo udon, their lihe. V/aloul.s sank above the hubs, and of Mitchell, Morehead. Morris, \ash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, course stuclk fat. In this state of things the de- Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Sellers,Stan. mand of toll at t}eir gates occasioned, as well it bery, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Stark,''owushend, Vance might, unuslual w,rath. A quarrel raged all along of Butler, WVarren, Wilson and Woodbury —57. their line. l'heir Pates -were forcibly cut down. Fire- So the demand for the previous question was not arms were iep:noveJ and one man at least was shot sustained. and wounded, tihout'4h perhaps lnot mortally. Tae The question then beinlg on Mr. HUMPHREVILLE'S General As en Ili, partakino in the excitement, at the amendment as amtendecld, session of l -,esed n act to repeal their char- Mr. MORRIS demanded the yeas and nays. ser.Tis, of 1,L",12- but ltedb,wa s n u eit ter.'IhIis, 7 i o ittle doubt, was undue lenity Mr. CURRY moved a call of the Coivention, and to Uievn n ult to htle dbeen sent to some trl beilng ordered, Messrs. Andrews, Co!liigs, Dorsey, Ewtoal thi ch. c,,i,,,,ht tave benqusent ito some f atsrad buinal, Nv-hiih C! I. have enquired into the facts an(] -art, Ewin)g, Forbes, Green of Ross, Harlan, Hitchcock have declared their chartr forfeited. The next ses- of Cuyaoga, Hitchcock of (eauga, Holt, Larwill, sion and evrv e se-i(,io while I was in either branch of Maioi, Mason, McCloud, McCornick, Norris, Orton, the General iscuib}y, thev were in our halls a,- Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smnith of Wycamnorous letinti.ers But petitioners for what for a andot, Stanton, Stilwell, Stickiiey, Struble, Vance of cestorotis Bit ptitioncarers f'or what fi or rear restoration t!I ),i( hter. No; they did not regard Champaigii, Williams and Worthinigtoin were found that as of Il lat vatlue. Nor did they aks us to absent. strengthen t-lie ) ids of socia ord by mlting m | i~~Mr. SMITH, of ~"arren, presented a mnemorial from The Convention refused to strike out; and so the Wn C.Goodri c an d eigty-sixothercitizensof War amendment ~~~~ ~ ~ ~~Waslot C.Goodrich, and eighty-six other citizens of Waramenldment was lost.' amedmen Oa loU sEtS. ren county respectfully askiing the Convention to in MOVAL OF COUNTY SEATS. corporate into the Bill of Rights for the people of Mr. FARR proposed to amend the thirty-eighth see- Ohio, the self-evideut declaration of Jefferson,'that tion of the report, by adding the following: "And that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living," and also no county seat shall be removed without first receiving asking the Conventionl "to provide in the inew Constithe sanction of a majority of all the votes cast at somie tution that no person shall hereafter acquire in this general election." ~~general election.~" State more than one hundred and sixty acres, and to The question being taken upon the adoption of this protect man in his inaliecable right to the earth they amendment, it was disagreed to upon a division of the * COD5elltiOD-affirmative 38,negative 41. Dask for a similar provision securing to every one posMor.ventANon-ffrmatOve d, negathive 41. iadsessed thlereof, at least forty acres of land with a dom jMri. STANTON moved that the Convention ad- icil or in lieu, thereof, a house andtowli or city lot, a Wb ourtiowa. dsge thome, the same to be in-violated for any debt or lia Wich motio was disagreed to. bility contracted after the adoption of the new Con Mr. KIRKWOOD moved that the Convention ad- stitution." journ till Thiursday morning at nine o'clock.uto. ourn till Tlursa morig at ne o'clock. So much of the above as refers to title and posses Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays upon sion, and real estate, was referred to the Standling this motion, and the same being ordered and taken, the Commlittee on Preamble and Bill of Rights, and the result was —veas 52, iiays 35, as follows: remainder to the Standing Committee oIl Miscellane Y~xs —Mless~-s. A;c~h!.o'.d. Barnlett of Preihle, B~ickenlsderfer,* Y Ael-,il~old. Bariielt of Pi-el,le, Blickenisderfel., ous Subjects and Propositions. Cabili, Case of HocfkinLg, Case of Lic-killg4, Citmrl!er-s, C,utler, Do-sey, Ewat, Farr,a FlorenH ce, Gill(tt, GrahaCro, G. -ay, Greene -Mr. LIDEY, from the Standing Committee on Miliof Defiance, G ea Gr,Iesleck. Harlai,, Heiidersoi,, lootrnaii, tia, to which was recoidmitted the report of the ConiHor-toti, flut, Jones, Keiiol,,Kiiog, Kirkwood, Larsb, Law- inittee on that subject, reported back the following as rence, Leeci, I.eadblet tei, Mason, Mitchell, Nash, Norris, Peck, Pe kills, Q ie, tidle, Scott of Antliaize, Seles a substitute for Report No. 1: Sm,ith of High':alll, SmiiTh of Warren, Starthere,. Stid,_er-, Swan Stitihofig at, StithofWattatStaere Stidei- Syvan Report No. 2, of the Standing Committee on Militia. Thiomnpsont of Shielty, Tnioep son of Stark, Towniseand, Vallee of Butler, Wiliarris a,d Ptesidenrt-5a. ARTICLE ON MILITIA. NAY Me~,s!-s. B arbee. Ba,-iiet of Mointgoinery, Bai~es, Blaii- SEc. 1. That all white male inhabitants, residents ofthis BlrwioAbe,-.rownofCrol Chaney,~a C ak no l'State. being eighteen years of age, and undcr forty-five years, Ciorryl, Hdiditv, H id4, fltawins Htitphu,Otvilse, fUt,itesr shall be enrolled in the Militita, and pcriorm military duty as J,thitsoui, Lidey, London, Morehead, Morris, Otis, Pati may be directed by las. Rannley, Rteemrelinl Scott of Halrrison, Smlith of Wvanldot, S~tanmabedrce ya - tRani,tey, Ila,eitein', Scott of Harli, Waren y,iof WaSEC. 2. Captains and Subalterns, shall be elected by ton, Steftt-ins, Stetriad, Swift, Taylor, Warrenti, Way, W i those persons subject to military duty in their respective disand Woodbury-: 5. So the Convention adjourned till Thursday morning SEC. 3. Colonels, Lieutenant-colonels and Majors shall be at nine o'clock. elected by those liable to duty in their respective regiments, bataluons or squadrons. SEC. 4. Brigadiers General shall be elected by those liable SEVENTY-SEV:ENTH DAY. to duty intheir respective Brigades. THUaSDAY van. 2, 1851,} Sec. 5. Majors General shall be elected by those subject to 9 O'C-LOCK A. M. s Militia duty, in their respective Divisions. O'CLOCK ~~SEC. 6. The Governor to appoint the Adjutant General, The Convention met pursuant to adjournment.~Ouain t or-Mast. e General, and such other Staff t)ffiecrs for the Mr. FLORENCE presented a petition from G. W. State as may be provided for by law; the Miajor Generals to Gooby, and thirty other citizens of Pickaway conaity, appoint their Division Staff,the Brigadier Generals to appoint praying that a clause may be inserted in the new their Brigade Staffs; the Colonels or Commandants of Regi Con, that shall effectually prohibit the legali- m ets, Batallions or Squadrons, to appoint their Staffs, and zonstitution, that shall effectually prohibit the legall- Captains to appoint their nes-comnl i-stoned officers and muzing of the sale of intoxicating drinks. sicians. 220 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURsDAY, JANUARY 2. Sec. 7. The General Assembly shall provide by law for to preclude such legislation; but to compel tile Genthe protection and safe keeping of the public arms. John Ripley, James London,Joseph Thompson,Sabirt Scott eral Assembly itself to extend it to towns that desire it, John fidey, James Loudon-, Joseph Thompson, Sabirt Scott, H. N. Gillett, Committee.' and not to leave that part to a vote of the people. On motion of the same gentleman. the report was Hence the power of local legislation will continue just laid on the table and ordered to be printed. as broad as it is now, bqt it must be wholly exercised O-i motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention again by the General Assembly, and cannot by that body be took up the report of the Committee on the Legislative devolved upon any other person or personis. Department, with the pending amendments. This is in conformity to the theory of our govern Mr. RANNEY moved to amend section 31 by ad- ment. The law-making power is by its very terms ding to the end of the same these words, "and laws vested in a General Assembly. The compact entered relating to public schools." into by every citizen is this, that the General Assembly Mr. RANNEY, said it had been, for twenty-five shall have the power to declare what is or is not law, years ithe law in this State, that in districts where it but a practice has grown up of devolving this power becamre niecessary to build school houses, to submit upon the people or voters in certain localities-and as the question whether they should or should not be this practice is admitted to be wrong in principle, this constructed, to a vote of the people. This practice section expressly settles the question, denies the power, had, so far as his observation extended, been not only and comman.ds the General Assembly to do its duty, salutary, but had been acquiesced in by the people, to declare what shall be or shall iiot be law, without and been looked uponi as avery just, a very equitable leaving the effect or operation of its acts to remain and a very proper mode of settling such questions. contingent upon the vote or approval of any other body. Also in regard to the adoption and putting in prac- Whether a law, whether a rule of action shall be estab - tice the provisions of a certain system of school lisbed, declared obligatory as law, must be settled by iaws, providing for a more efficient organization of the General Assembly, where of right it belonged, and schools, it had been hit herto the practice of the Gen- not to be left to become obligatory as law upon the will eral A.-semrbly, to provide by law that the question on or action of one or many. The section means this, and the adoption of the system should be submitted to in my humble opinion, can mean nothinig else No the people, at some popular election, as well as that law shall be passed to take effect upon a conltiigency relating to the additional taxation necessary for its of the approval of others. The qnestion here presentsupport. And for himself hlie saw no danger in the ed is, who shall declare the law. This duty is required principle, or impropriety in the practice of allovwing to be performed exclusively by the General Asserathe people to vote to themselves such schools as they bly. w,ere willing to support. He did not believe it to be Mr. RANNEY. But does it not prevent the prothe object of gentlemen in refusing to strike out this visions of the school laws from being extended to section, to cut up this systemi of school laws, or to other townships or counties by a vote of the peoprevent aiy future action of the people, by which pie? their bhleits are to be realized. That they had been | Mr. NAiSH. Certainly it does. That question is to in general very beneficial hlie did not doubt, having be decided by te GeneralAssembly. The law-naiing head a fair opportunity to'-witness their operation. He lbdcddvl(,eea~,inl.Teaw-iai had a fair opportunity to witness'Ccir operatin He power must decidle the fact of law or no law in the pardesired that they shlould he cointinued, and if there ticular locality alia not thie voters il the locality itwas anything in th e section which wou ld endanger self. If the inhabitants wish a law so extended, they their further a pplication, he was desirous toreove can make that fact known to the law-makig power. t. He knew there was a question upon the subjetc,T oito ts l in oe. and a difference of opinion, some gentlemen holdn she Constitution by its bill of rights points out t,e maniner'of so making thjeir wishies kinowni, and that i& that all acts which iequired the assent of the people aerof so pakig their wishes know me and that is upon the sulbject, would be unconstitutional, others;iy petition wer lsuch wish is so male ki,rwn th not. Which opinion was right, he was not prepared law-t mlaing power must iII view of all ltie strruidig t sy but was desirous to avoid anything hh circumstances, of the linterests of the entire Stale d cide tou say butu re asdsirous toc avo e1id l aneing 9 hhwhethier the public welfare requires or forbids the proshould in future admit of such a question behin rats- mulgation of such a law. ed. Ile thought it should be settled here, in onei ways or the other. Otherwise, the first time a school house does this provision interfere with our school laws, should be built, under the existiing law, a lavw sit with the power to build school houses, and raise taxes would be the conquence, and the eult ould by a vote of the people. The two questions are wholly would be the consequence, and the result would be dit't Th la Prec i e t h rue rdiY ter, that people woutld be afraid to act, for fear of acting disti n ct. The law prescribes the rule, ordains the rewrong and subjecting themselves to liability. He gulation, grants the power; whether the people will thought that in the formation of a Constitution, eve- exercise this grant of authority, alay well rest upon rything should be made as clear as possible,and espe- their votes.'Ilie power to build school houses, to raise cially that no questioni should be left, which would on the taxes, is found in the law, atd whether this power its face demand an appeal to the tribunals of justice shall be granted to school districts, andi on what confor its settlement. If we cannot here, settle upon the ditions it may be exercised, must be decided by the construction thatis to be given to a particular clause; General Assembly; but whether this authority, when it is our duty to omit it altogether-otherwise we eii- grailted, shall be exercised, is no part of the law. The act what we do not understand, and fix provisions, law is as much a law of the State, whether a single whose consequecces weare unable to foresee.' school house is built or not. Thei e is the law; you Mr. NASH said that the section under consideration may read it on the statute book; whether it shall be a did not in his opinion interfere with the power of the law or not, depends upon no conlingeticy whatever. General Assembly to make laws, whether of a general It is the difference between the 9raritin9 and the exer or local nature. It leaves the power untouched, unim- cise of an authority; the one must be given by the paired. The efect of the provision is to confine, and to General Assembly; the other may be exercised or not, prevetit the General Assembly froim delegating this just as the individuals see fit. The law prescribes how high power to any other body. Whatever law it is real estate shall be conveyed, and this, for rue, is just clatnied the General Assembly might leave for it as much a law, whether I ever make a conveyance or vitality to a vote of those to be affected by it, the Geii not. There is the rule, and if I mnake a conveyance, it eral Assemlily itself can pass. The effect therefore must be followed; there is the law authorizinig the erec upon such laws as that of the Union School law, is not tion of school houses, and it is as much the law of the 221 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TTHULRSDAY, JANUARY 2. State, whether a single district ever votes to erect one; the effect of laws local in their operations, passed in this if it does wish to erect one, it must look to this law; manner. It had frequently been the occasion of great it must follow its provisions whatever they may be. carelessness in legislation. Menmbers of the General Nor can this clause limit or obstruct the power to Assembly have not exercised that scrutiny which they vote taxes. The law points out whether taxes may be otherwise would, when they learn that the law, in order raised, and how it shall be done. This is the whole to become operative, is to be submitted to a vote of the law. Whether the taxes shall be assessed and collect- people. It is also the occasion of multiplicity in legis ed, may be left to the well of the tax-payers. Nor is lation, and if the practice is persisted in, we shall soon there anything in this provision to prohibit it. have laws for every five miles of territory in the State, Such is my understanding of this provision, and so different from all the others. understood, I believe it a most wholesome provision- He had had occasion to observe this himself in the one calculated to improve our legislation, and settle General Assembly. A member tbrings in a bill-not what has been a disputed question of con,titutional liking its provisions, he had risen to oppose it. The law. I never have had but one opinion as to the pro- member asks in surprise: What have you to do with priety and constitutionality of such legislation. I have this? It is to be submitted to the people, and they are believed it wrong in principle as well as unconlstitu- to vote upon it before it becomes a law. Members tional, and always, as a legislator, voted against their mouthsare stopped. It is like interfering with the mere passage. This section expressly settles the question, local interests of these fellow iiembers. He did not as the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania has settled it believe in the practice. It is inconsistent with the in the case of Parker vs. Commnonwealthl, 6 Barr, Pa. theory of a republican government. He thought that State Reports, 540. In that case the court decided a the laws should be made at the seat of the government, law inoperative, which was to take effect upon a vote and by the representatives of the people, otherwise of the people in the locality; holding that the power there is no safety to the people in those institutions to declare law wasvested in the General.assembly and which we delight to call Republican. not in the voters of the State, or a county, or town. Mr. RANNEY desired before voting, to know if This is, in my opinion, the true doctrine-a doctrine this provision, as it staids,would not cut up the system growing directly out of the very nature of our form of of schools alluded to, to be adopted by a popular vote. government, and I am therefore prepared so to declare Mr. NASH. It would by no rneaus cut up, or even in the Constitution itself. inl the Consitution itself. affe ct the system; but would merely leave it to the Leg Mr. EWART agreed in general with the doctrine islature to say whether it should be applicable in a par laid down by the gentleman fromn Gallia, (MR. NASH.) ticular part of the State or not. But that gentleman has given no reason of a practical Mr. RANNEY. I3ut why not leave it to the peo character why the General Assembly may not pass a ple? Let the General Assembly provide the system, general law,leaviug its provisions to be adopted or not and the people choose whether or not they will come as the people shall deemn necessary, on a full consid under it. ]t seems to rme, that it will, in fact cut up eratiou of their own circumstances, in connection the system. with the provisions of the law itself. His reason seems Mr Patterson moved to reconsider the vote taken, to exist in something connected with what he views by which the Convention refused to strike out seethe theory of government, but of the working ofwhich tionI 31. he has cited us to no practical examples.'I he ssrotion. If it should - "m Mr. NASH was opposed to the motion. If it should of schlool lawvs known as the Akron system, has work-I of school laws known as the Akron system, has work- prevail, the question of striking out would again recur. ed well in the part of the State which he represented, If that motion should prevail, it would have the effect and he was able to see no wrong that had accrued Iof giving a constructive power to the G(eneral Asserneither from its adoption or from the manner in which bly, which that body would not have had, had the secit had been made operative in particular locations. tior been simply omitted in the report. It would have If this power is not given to the people, of course, the force of a negative pregnant-not merely the deit must be exercised by the Legislature, and the only nial of a thing, but the affirmance of tie opposite. practical difference will be, that that body will have a Mr. SWAN said there was a (ifficulty in giving conlittle more to do. It must first create the general law, struction to the section, which he should wish might and then, by a series of local enactments it must be obviated by amendment. apply it to this or that township, county or school district as the exigencies of the people shall demand. He Mr. IIUMPhREVILLE hoped tie Convention was ready to vote to cut off the power of voting taxes would, at the proper time reconsider the vote by which for purposes of internal improvements by towstips, it refused to strike out the last clause of the section. for purposes of internal improvements He tlwsips cities or counties, because he could see how such a He thought gentlemen had not fully considered all the power, might be abused; but he did not see the same eects which might follow it He beleved it to be reason in such a case as tihis There must be cases in pregnant with mischief. It was a novelty in Constituwhich it will be for the interest of the people to act of tions, and as of course no construction had been given themselves, upon questions regarding the school laws to it, it presented much that was calculated to excite of the State, that do now or hereaftermay exist. Some apprehension. Under such a construction as might portions of the State are waked up upon the subject be given to it, Courts of Justine might be debarred of schools. They have done much, and want to do from declaring those rules of pleading and practice more. Thay may have progressed as far as is possible "which are so essential to give efficiency to their acts. under one ayste, arid may desire to advance to a These, together with rules for the government of jails higher; and il all such cases, it seenis nlot only neces- and other matters of the county police, usually left to sary,but in the highest degree proper that they should the discretion of the Courts of Common Pleas must have tne privilege to act in their own case, as their i future emnate from the General Assembly. The view of their own welfare, and interest shlall demand. people could not build school houses, nor vote a local He could see no danger in the practice, and hoped no tax forany purpose. He wasopposed to the introducobstacle would be interposed to prevent it tion of the section into'he report. He thought the Mr. REEMELIN was sorry that this question, people had not asked for it, and he wanted no novelwhich he supposed had been settled, had been raised ties in our organic law, unless the expression o the again. He was constrained to say that he wats forced popular opinion had been first full and conclusive in Lo differ from his friend from Washington in regard to the matter. 222 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, JANUARY 2. through the boolks of record of the proceedings of the Boards of Directors of the Companies themselves. I know this from experience. It may be right; but it does appear to me, that the law making power of the state should not depend upon the acts or votes of the people, in any particular locality. Mr. STANTON rose merely to express, his opinion i n concurrence with that of t he gentl eman froi Gallia (Mr. NASH.) He thought that these laws were to be looked upon, in all cases where they are calculated to operate upon the state at large, as general laws; and this whether they had been made efficient by a vote of the people or not. In giving construction to such a law, neithe r sect ions of the la w itself, nor the interest of sections of the state, wher e it may have been adopt - ed are to be taken into consideration. It is the whole law considered with reference to the whole state. The question being on the arnendmeut of Mr. SWAN, to insert the words "local or special," the same was disagreed to. The question then being on striking out all after the words'"General Assembly.' Mr. STANBERY had his doubts about so much of the section as is now proposed to be stricken out. It is an entirely new provision in this State, and in the United States. Not one of all the Constitutions of all the States, new or old, has adopted any such clause, or made any similar provision. And now, sir; what evil has happened during past years, to the State of Ohio, or to her people, that demands in this new Constitution, a remedy of this kind? Besides it is our duty to consider the evil-to look at the old law and its defects in furnishing a remedy before we proceed to experiments of this kind. So far as the evil of allowing the people to vote to impose upon themselves a tax for the purpose of internal improvement is concerned -if it is an evil, it has been checked by the provisions of the report of the Committee on Public debts and public works. So there is an end to that. Now what is the other class of cases, which depend for their operative force upon the popular vote, and which ought to depend entirely upon legislative action? I am not aware of any. I admit that there are laws, whose operation depends upon the vote of the electors of sections of the State; and very wholesome laws they are too-such as regard the building of school houses, the adoption ofschcol systems, &c. Gentlemen say these should be uniform, all over the State. I think they are mistaken. People in one section desire a more extended and comprehensive system of schools than in another. What principle forbids their having it? I can see no objection. The power to regulate the law still belongs to the Legislature; and its adoption is left to the good sense and the ability of the people-precisely where it should be left. There is another objection. Gentlemen say that the laws are not uniform-that there is one law for one place and another law for another. Well, what of that? It might be wished that all were uniform; but the thing is impossible. Every town —every city, must, of necessity have its own peculiar laws enacted by its own law makers, to suit its own peculiar circumstances. What would be proper for a small town might not be for a large one-what would suit a city in c. e location would not suit a city in another. Cincinnati has one set of laws, Columbus another. What is the objection? To burden the Legislatulre with the enactment of all the laws of all the corporations in the State,would be intolerable. There is another law which has been submitted to the popular action. It is that for the protection of sheep. This law —extremely salutary as it is for some parts of the State, would not do for others. Now what is the objection to its being adopted where it would be Mr. LARSEI had his difficulties in regard to the section, and was afraid the Convention had gone a little too far. Mr. CURRY suggested another reason for the reconsideration. He thought the provisions of the section would be found to conflict with that upon the same subject in the report of the Committee on Corporations. Besides, there is a difficulty in the constructioni of the section itself-the gentleman from Trumbull (Mr. RANNEY) contending for one construction, and the gentleman from Gallia, cMr. NASH) for another. If these opinions cannot be reconciled, it is, of itself a sufficient reason for striking it out: for no one will contend that we should delegateto any other body, whether judicial or legislative, the task to interpret that which we cannot interpret ourselves. In general he agreed with the opinions of the gentleman from Trumbull (Mr. RANNEY), as to the effect of the section. The question being on the reconsideration of the vote by which the Convention refused to strike outthe section, (31) the same was agreed to, on division; yeas 51, nays not counted. The question then being on striking out said section: Mr. NASH was opposed to striking out for the reason that by so doing the Convention would give an implied power to do what it had refused to prohibit. Mr. GREGG spoke in favor of the beneficial operation of the Akron School System, ailtd in opposition to any plan by which the people migh-t be prevented from taking advantage of it at their will. Mr. SWAN moved to reconsider the vote by which the Convention refused to strike out all that part of See. 31, which occurs after the words "General Assembly:" Which motion having the precedence, the question was on the reconsideration: Mr. SWAN then moved to amend the section, by inserting, in the second line, after the word "any," the words "local or special." Mr. MASON said it seemed to him that the effect of this amendment would be to sanction so far as concerned general laws, the very mischiefs we are making an effort to guard against. lie knew this was not the object of his friend from Franklin (Mr. SWAN) for he was sure that gentleman agreed with himself in senitiment, and the only difference that there could be,would be upon the proper means of producingan effect which both admitted to be desirable. If this should be the plan, all general laws might be made to depend upon a vote of the people, whether they should be operative or not-and this not only in regard to the laws providilg for general policy, but such as define and punish offences and crimes. This class of legislation if carried to the extent which it may be under a constitutional encouragement, will produce such a fruit as will be appalling to those counties which enter into the system. The statute book will be full of laws, general in their provisions, but local in their application. We shall have one code of criminal law as applied to this county; another perhaps to Franklin, and a third to Cuyahoga. We have only to multiply the class, and we shall have wheels within wheels, until no one can tell what the law is, in any one particular place. There is now in existence a general law for regulating railroad companies, which provides that any railroad company may adopt any section or clause of its provisions, which issuited to its case, and make it a part of its charter. The law is doubtless a good one, and each company has a right to cull from it such gems as suits it, to deck itself withal. And to such a pitch has this arrived, that now, in order to ascertain what is the law of each of these great corporations, you are not to go I o the acts of the General Assembly, but to search | 223 224 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TIIURSDAY, JANUARY 2. of use? There can be none. I agree with gentlemnen, power, to:a part of the people of Ohio, in the different that it is desirable that there should be uniformity in counties? He is willing that no m(re subscription to General Laws, but if that uniformity were enforced in stock should be taken by a vote of the people, and I every possible subject of Legislation, it would be in- understand himn, also, to be willing to provide, by antolerable. other special clause, against the taxing power being Sir, we always must have, as we always have had, exercised by the people in different school districts. local legislationi-laws which are to regulate certain I ask him then, whether it is wise, yea, I ask himn defiled sections-which are to operate within those lo- whether it is consistent with the homilies he has read calities and no where else. us upon constitution making, thus to provide only Mr. TAYLOR. He had anticipated that the gen- againlst the recurrence of a special case, while true tiemran from Clark, [Mir. MASON,] would favor the wisdomn points out that we should guard against the proposition,that the force and ability of important gen- recurrence of all similar evils? eral laws might be made to depend uponii the action of The gentleman told us yesterday that hlie would vote the people at large. For when the questio. of the for the insertion of that clause in reference to the power veto power was under discussion in this body, there of suspending laws, not because he-could now see any were genltlemen opposed to the veto, and in favor of dangerfroni the omission to insert it, but because he submitting to the public, important general laws, be- consideredit thepartofwisdom to preserve provisions, cause, said they, that would be the most effectual check such as these, if it were merely to show our children upon hasty and considerate legislation. what dangers other people have passed through, and As an example of the operation of this principle, he how necessary it was to guard against them in the supposed the case of a bill pending before the General future. I ask him, then, and mny fellow members, Assembly, and the minority to ask of the majority coolly to reflect whether thereis not a direct tendency that it mlay inot go instantly into effect; but that it both in the public mind aud inii the legislative halls, might be submitted to the people at large-to be de- to exercise powers under the specious pretext of getcided upon by a general vote. Here might be extend ting the approval of the sovereign people, which no ed an additional protection to the rights of nilnorities. wise man, that would in the least desire the protec The argument as it was well presented by the gen- tion of minorities, would grant to the General Assemtleman from Clark,certainly applies to this proposition. bly. In other words, whether legislating through It follows, therefore, that, in the enactment of laws, a the ballot box, is that kind of legislation whichl is provision of this kind, would have a most wholesome consistent with the institutions we areabout to frame, and conservative effect. From this consideration, he and whether we are not endangering the whole symhad expected of the gentleman fiomr Clark and others, metry, yea, the very basis of the government under who, like him, were jealous of the danger of hasty and which we live? inconsiderate action on the part of the General Assem- The gentleman from Erie, (Mr TAYLOR,) tells us bly, that they would favor this proposition. that there is no danger; that all laws will hereafter be He next glanced rapidly at the principle of submit- submitted to the approval of the people. On the contog to the people the question of the repeal of an in- trary he seems to think that the exercise of the right porltant law-giving it another trial, and rminorities of the people, throughout the State at large, to pass another opportunity of presenting its defects before upon special questions, is often desirable; and he the bar of public opinionl; and asked if there was lnot therefore argues that an entire prevention of such a another rampart, another strong barrier against the practice is to be deprecated. Let me say to my danger of hastv legislation. friend, that he is cormpletely mistaken in the tendency lie wished simply to interpose these considerations of the times. Thatq tendency is, to disturb the true in favor of contingent legislation-in favor of giving equilibrium that should exist ini a governlentitsuchas to the Legislature a aiscretion, upon extraordinary oc- ours, and to unsettle, especially, the seat where the casions, to make this appeal to the popular vote. law making power rests. Meiibers of the Genieral The question was not, whether all the laws should Assenmbly are playing into the hands of this tendeiibe thus submitted. The honest pride of opinionl in cy, because it relieves them of responsibility, and the Legislature would prevent that. It would aily be wily demiagogues encourage it with the hope of obdone in extraorcdinary cases: such as the repeal of the taining, at thie hands of the people, the right to exSchool Law of the State of New York, to which he ercise powers which the General Assembly would not referred the day before yesterday. It was a resort dare, nor have a right to exercise. Thus, sir, in Ohio which would but rarely be made. we have seen laws enacted arid enforced through this .Buat then, it had been alleged, that this practice iew medium of legislatiorn, which were, perhaps in would admit of an unmanly shrinking from respoilsi- harmony with a certain kind of local sentiment, but bility, and that the laws under it would not be framed which were revolting to the great public opinion of with care. But he considered, that, in the prospect of the whole State of Ohio. a submission,the laws would be framed with more care The law-making power, instead of being al; integ than otherwise; because it would be known and col- ral whole, vested uder limited and strictly defined sidered that every proposition would have to oass the powers; in a body of representatiees, acting under a ordeal of the Dress, of public discussion, and the bal- sense. of direct responsibility to the people, will be lot-box. So far from inducing hasty and inconsiderate reparceled out to the people, in townships, cities and law-mskiug, he believed that the foreshadowilog of an counties; and it becomes, from aii organized and well appeal to the ballot-box, woald have a conservative ef- understood power in the government, a power boundfeet upon everr att (of thle law-mnaking power. less in its character and irresistible in its tendency. Mr. JREE,MELlN. A few words more in reply to Our Senators and our Representatives might, in the the gentlemnr from Erie, (Mr. TAYLOR,) and fhe gen-mlegislative halls, argue till doomsday that certain proteman from Franklin, (Mr. SYANaERY) I appeal to! positions were unconstitutional-the ever ready reply the latter gentleman to say whether he holds in this would bee will submit it to the people, and their particular, that statesmanlike position that, from his approval shall be the arbiter between us." However reputation he should hold upon this subject. ie says clear and convincing might be the arguments that that he is wtilling to provide, by special clause in ti "the election of tavern keepers by the people," was constitution, against one of the evils thaw have arisen in its character, and that no such power in conflquence of this delegation of the legislative should be granted or exercised by the people at large, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THUIRSDAY JANUARY 2. but retaining all power within itself, would be the better governmenlt of the two. I acknowledge freely, that my presentiments lean towards such a government, and in general. I have always, and will always, act upon the principle, that no power should be granted, except what is absolutely necessary, to preserve social order. As the question stands however, I repeat, that we have a right to say that no law should be passed, except by the consent of a majority of the representatives of the people; and that no other authority-except the:'authority fixed in the constitution, for the law-making power-shall make laws for us. We are, to be sure, not entirely a homogeneous people. The people of the Western Reserve are different from the people of the Southern part of Ohio. They have their peculiar notions; but they cannot, under our government, get these opinions into the shape of law, without passing the scrutiny of the people south of the National road. And it is this very spirit of our institutions, meeting each other in the common arena, for the determination of our legal enactments, which gives us, in my opinion, better laws. Thus acting and, if you please, controling and re-acting upon each other. We, in Hamilton, have a right, for the protection of our interests, tohave the restrainiinginfluence of Cuyahoga; and so has each county the right to rely upon the other, each is bound to contribute its share of wisdom and experience, contributing to each other's comforts, and the preservation of each other's rights, and thus is made up the law-making power inf Ohio. This I deem to be the t rue spirit of our institutions. Whether that kind of government be right or not, is not a quest io n now to be decided, for wT have de cided it already. All I.wish to say in conclusion, is, that if I ever should become a participant in a government based upon pure Democracy, I should then insist that the guards and the restrictions, and the linits to the exercise of the power of the people should be as clearly defined as they are in the present Constitution of Ohio, with regard to the different departments of Government. If all my rights are at the hazard of a mere majt ority, it mak e s but littl e difference to me whether all mny rights are jeopardised at the mere whim of many, or at that of one. As a Democrat, I desire the exercise of but little power, and what I especially fear as the tendency of the law-making power being vested in more than one place, is, that it will accelerate the assumption of power on the part of the Government, which but few of us as yet anticipate. Such has been the result already, and mnUC m ore so will this be its tendency hereafter. This I'desire to prevent. The question was now taken upon striking out the latter clause of the section, to wit: All after the words "General Assembly," in sectioni 31. It was agreed to upon a division-affirmative 43, negative 35. The question then being on striking out the whole of section thirty-one, it was agreed to. Mr. SMITH of Warren moved to further amend the Report, by adding the following as a substitute for the thirty-first section: "S8EC. 21. All law s of a general nature, shall have a uniform operation, nor shall any law he passed, to take efiict upon the approval of ally other authority than the General Assemnbly, except as otherwise providted in this conlstitu tion." Mr. GREGG moved te amend the amnendment her insertingf after the word "passed," the words "except on the subject of commton schools," which was disagreed to. still they woul d be met b y the oily tongues of men who prate about ths "sovereignty of the people," and the right of th e people to decide all qu estions, wh ile in thei r hea rt s they despie the people, expect ing only to -use them in particular illstatices for nefarious purposes, ainl wi the a viewl to the exercise of powers which the government itself w ould not dare to exercise, or from which tihey were preclude d by the ter ms of the constitution. I say then tht iec a n that y experience and that of the gentlernan from Erie differ materially upon this point; anti where mine teaches me that if I desire a government, limited in its pow ers, clearly defin ed in i ts s phe res, protceting alike the rights of majorities and minorities, 1 must batt le f or the iso tegrity of the legislative power to be exercised, not sometimes in my township, sometimes in a co unty, but by the authorities recognized and d efin ed in the organic olaw of the Stat e. Our basis is u nderstood to b e a comnpact between the people and the gov er nment; we, in Hamilton county, for insta nce, sub mit t o h ave a goveranment in Ohio in which the legisla'ive power is exercised, not by us, but by representatives cldosell in( the diff erent counties of this State. We part, therefore, with the sovereignty vested in us, arId invest and join it with the sovereignty of the whol e State, so far as the lawm aking power is concerned, and we have determined it shall be vested in a Generai Assemlbly, nleetirg biennially a t the seat of Government. In thits General Assemiblyv we have the right to ask th e advice and experience of the members from Franklin, Ashtabula, Monroe, or any other county; or in other words that the assembled wisdom and experience of the State should scrutinize all laws to b e p asse d ill Ohio. I say we have said so bv adoptting tht first section of thi s report, end, whether it be wise or unwise for the people in the different counties thus to deleglat e thei r sovereignty to the whole State, I cannot consider it as an open question ol -, a q ue stion whIich I yeg at al A l ikely to be called upon tor i nvestigate,-. Were it a new question, were there any probability of organizing a g overtnment based upon the sovereignties in the different townships or counties in this state, this question tonight be differently decided, but as it is, having alreaody p eovided whlere, s o much of the sover e ignty as refers to the law- making power, shall be vested, it becomes, not a question of the kind of government we wi ll have, but whether t he exercise of such a power is con,sistet, a iti h thr e al ready adopted frase work of Outi government. I understand public sentimenit ill Ohio, to be in favor of a representative democracy, vot rig through the ballot-I box, for the men who are to exercise the powers conferred by the constitution, we are about to make, and all that I inean to contend for is, that the exercise of the sovereign right of the people in counties, or townships, to legislate through the ballot-box, is inconsistent with the structure of our government. Such I understand, to be the decision of the Supreme Court of Pernnsylvania and Delaware. And I must admit, that the decisions of those two courts, and es pecially that of Penniisvlvania, have redeemed in my eye, many of the errors tlat courts have unfortunately fallen into, and, (turning towards Mr. Ar~Ct3OLD,) if the supreme court of the Un-ited States, wouldl occasionally give us a decision so truly in consonance with our own zinstitutions, I[ might even yet, get a good opinion of that court. I take it for granted thein, that the law-making power is intended to be vested in a General Assembly that such is the idea of our people, and such, also, is the strong sentiment of this Convention; and, therefore, I will not argue the question, whether a pare, unadulterated democracy, acting through no agents, I i i 225 OHIO CONVENITON DEBATES-THIURS?AY JANUARY 2. in it which would cover the objection. The objection to which he referred, was, that there never was an act of incorporation which went into effect, without the consent of the corporators; and whether it be an act of incorporation, or no act of incorporation, must in the very nature of the case, depend upon its acceptance or refusal; and that must be optional with the corporators. It might be said that the Legislature could give thenm such a law as they might petition for. But would learned gentlemen say, that such an act might not easily be made to contain a provision which the corporators never dreamed of? A single line, ora single word changed or superadded, might make of it a piece of perfect, unmitigated tyra nny-such as the corporators could not, nor would not bear. He simply threw out this idea, as his contribution to aid in the formation of a suitable provision upon this subject, or no provision at all. And he believed now for himself, having heard so much about this provision, that fie would vote against the whole of it in ail its parts, parcels and branches. We had got nothing in the proposition of the gentleman fromn Warren, (Mr Smith,) which we had not before, excepting a single clause in the first part; of which he confessed he did not know what it meant; and that was reason enough for him to vote against it. The question being upon the agreeing to the amendIment of Mr. SMITH of Warren. Upon the motion of Mr. LARSH, the Convention took a recess. The question then being on agreeing to the amend mAent of Mr. SMITH of Warren, Mr. HUMPHREVI LLE moved to amend the amend ment bv striking out all after thi e wo rd "operation." Mr. AWAN nove to e nd to amendthe words proposed to be stricken out, by inserting after the wo rd'effect" the words "or to be operative," Which was agree d to, o n a division-affirinative 51, negative not counted. The question the n being o striing ng out all after the word "operation:" Mr. REECImELIN demanded ChIeycas and b hayi, and being ordered, resulte d yeas 34, nays 54, as fol lows: YEA,s-Messe,s. BRaidr, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hockii ng, C(llitlgs, Cook,, Curry, dutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Hlanilton, Hitchcoc k of Cuyahoia, Holt, Hootmnan, Humtphrevilte Hunter, Jones, Larslo, Loudon. Mason, Moreliea, McCiotid. Patterson, Ragreey, Scot t of Au glaize, Smitl of HiglITlaHod, tanery, Swift, Taylor, W oodbu ry and Presideent-34. NAYS-Messrs. Ba togee, Barne ouf Montgomery, Bates, BienRett, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Florence, Gillett. Gray, Gr- eene of D efiance, Gre,g, Groesbck, Hard, Harlan, Haw kins, Holnes, Horton, HuInt, Joihn son, Kentnos, King, Lawrene, Leech, Lead b)etter, Lidey, Mitchliell, %I orris, Nash, Norris, Otis, Peck, QCLiig l ey, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawy er. Sco tt of Harrison, Sel le rs, Siith of Warrenr, Sit of Wy aitdo ltnto th, teboins, Stioi-t er, Struble, Swani, Thlomnpsoni of Shelby, Thompsoni of Stark, Tow-s shede. Vance of Butler, Warre n, Way and Wilsona-54 So the motion to strike out was disagreed to. The question then being on agreeing t o the amend ment of Mr. SMITH of Warren, Mr. CURRY demanded the yeas and nays, Mr. MITCHELL thoug ht we ought to be careful in making provi sions here, t o proc e ed upon co reect principles. The object of genera l laws was to make th e necessary encroachents upon the natural rights of the people as slight as possible. But there must be, exceptions to e very general rule, and, if we w ould act properly, we w ould provide for alt the exceptions - such as th e gent lem an from Trumbull ha d in his mind-and arr ange them under their proper heads. M r. MASON would cal l the a ttention of the gen- tleman who offered this proposit ion, to what was meant, by t he phr as e "general laws of a uni form effect?" No general law should be passed but such as would have a uniform effect. Would not that prevent th ose acts of the people which were n ow s o common under g e neral laws provided for a very great variety of pur- poses? There were general laws authorizing numerous inc o rpo r ations, such as seminaries of learning, churches, and the like; was there not some doubt, whether thos e acts of incorporation ( as We call them) of the. people,could be ob tained u n der such a provision of thel constitution as th is? Was it clear that these acts of incorpora tion c ould b e obt ained! under this proposeds constitutional provision as they are now obtained? A nother sugges tion which he desired to make, was, as to whether there could be an act of incorporation. f or the most innocent purpose obt ained unde r the lattere clause of the amendment, and consistently with it, 1 without making the a ct of incorporation m andatory o and positive in the first instance, and not at all de-, pendent ut onsent of te placing ther State in a very strange position, if it should turn out that we had put into the constitution a provision by, which an act of incorpor ation could not be obta ised t in the State of Ohio, except that that act must be per- i emptory —that you are incorporated, with or without t your consent —and:whether you are incorporated or slot, shall not depend upon your resolution accepting sf the act of incorporation. If it were replied to him,1 that there was a sufficient guarantee against this in the section itself, he must still say that he could see nothing t 226 ATIES-THURsDAY, JANUARY 2. 227 system of laws in one county, and another in another? He wished to cut off all that sort of legislation, and remove it from the Statute book. It was truthfully remarked by the gentleman from Gallia, (Mr. NASH,) that we had different systems of laws in different counties. In relation to the punishment of crimes, although we had a general law upon the subject, petit larceny was punishable by fine and imprisoniment in some counties, and in other counties, (by a constructive provision extending the limits of thejail to the limits of the county,) the same offencee was made punis hable by hard laldor upon the strenets or in the stQne-quarries. He objected to all this. He objected also to every law which made an act criminal in one county of the State which was no t also criminal in every other county in the State. This was all wrong in principle; and it was the object of his a mendment to arrest this practice of partial legislation. He w ould state further, that the terms of the amendment were not original with him. He had t aken the proposition from a provision il the same words in the Constitution of Ca:ifornia. Mr. STANTON said, if he understood the feelin~ and wishes of gentlemen on all sides, they were wlliling tc adopt some provision, by which, to guard against the evils alluded to by the gentleman from Gallia, and the gentleman from Warreni. But there was also some apprehension, that this provision was too sweeping in its terms. Hiis friend from Olark. supposed, that, under the provisions of this section, all laws authorizing corporations, and, the levying of taxes to build school-houses, would be cut off. Mr. STANTON, then moved to amend the amendment, by adding at the end, the following: "Provided that nothing herein contained, shall be so clonstrued, as to prevent any individual, bode corporate, or poll tic, or any association, from availing themselves of any privileges or benefits, or exercising any powers conferred by any act of the General Assemibly."1 Mr. RANNEY. The present modification of the section, as he understood it, was abou.t the same that it was at first, unless it had been made a little worse, by the process of amendment. Ile did not know how the gentleman from Warren, came to the conclusion, that a majority of the convention were in favor of the latter branch of his amendment; for theiy bad certainly once struck out a proposition ver similar to it. He affirmed that the proposed section would utterly prohibit the building of a school-house, or any thing else, by means of a tax law, which would require a vote of the people, to carry it into operation. If there ever was a direct-attack, upon the right to build a ~chool-house, by a voluntary tax of tle people, this was one. He did not know but the section was more satisfactory to the convention, since its terms were made stronger; but it was less so, to him. The gentleman, (Mlr. NASH,) had cited extreme caes, in local legislation; but he would take one of hem: Here was a law, in the county of Hamilton, which allowed the officer to take a criminal out of the ail, and work him upon the streets-for, in this case, t could be done without any great expense of superrqsion. But it was manifest, that a general law of ,his nature, could nlot be made operative,, in every ounty, without hiring about foulr honest ente to take are of one rogue, It had been said tha, by submitting laws to the )eople, we delegate legislative power. Nut, if in the xerc~ise of p~ower delegated by the representative, the eovereign, the principal, ratify the thing done, What m~azing wrong was there? Mr. REEMELIN was understood to say t-hate presentatives received their power from the whole e.,pl~e, an-d to ask whether the re~presentative had~the tive authority of the State, or delegate it to anybody else, as they may choose. With reference to the first part of the amendment, it had been said by the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. STANBEsiY,] that there was no necessity for it. Was not that g e ntleman aware that we had now, all over the State, almost as man y d iffere nt laws as we had cou nties? T hat crim e was punishable in Hamilton county in one w ay, and in Gr eene countyv in another way? That a man guilty of petit larceny in Hamil ton county was put into the chain-gang, and made to work the streets, whilst in other counties this was not the case? We h ad a law, also, by which the county commissioner s could change the character of the pun ishment of cr iminal s. So, that a man, in one county, guilty of petit larceny, might be confined in the coun ty jail. and subject lo pay a fine, whilst, in another county, another criminal of this class might be sub ject to hard labor for 30 or 60 days Again, we had a general law, that land should not be sold under execu tion for less than two-thirds of its appraised value, yet, in the county of Cuyahoga, and two or three other counties at the north, this law was not in force. We had also different laws in relation to the transnis sion of real estate in different counties. Now, it was the design of the first clause of this section to provide against all exceptions and discrepancies of this eharac. ter in our general laws-to provide that all laws of a general nature shall be uniform throughout the State. In the State of Massachusetts the court had decided, that any act of the Legislature which undertakes to suspend the operation of a general law in regard to an individual case, was void. By this section, these two rules would be definitely settled; namely: That the law-making poweris in the General Assembly; and that general laws shall be uniform throughout the State. These were the reasons why he was in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Warren, and why he insisted that it was founded upon those principles of constitutional law which belong to every well-regu- t lated, civil atnd limited government. i Mr. SMITH of Warren was desirous of saying a I word before the question should be taken. In relation t to the first branch of the amenidment, from the votes t already taklen, it seemed that the principle embraced in it, was a favorite one with the majority; and he him. self thought ita very salutary provision. Since there was conferred upon the General Assembly all the law mak- ing and all the legislative power, lihe was in favor ofhold- e img that body to a proper responsibility for their acts. e They should not, for the purpose of screening them' e selves, devolve the responsibility of the passage of acts s which might be thought unpopular, or of doubtful expediency, upon the votes of the people. He uinder- s stood that a majority of the convention was in favor n of this doctrine. He himself had been, for a lon g s time, and still continued to be in favor of it. He w a s t, against the passage of any law, the operation of which should be made to depend upon a vote of the peo-.il pie ple li With reference to the first branch of the proposi- v tion, he wished to say,that, in relation to the phraseolo-. t] gy there used, he was by no means prepared to say cou that it was altogether the best and most specific lan- ca guage that could have been employed. His chief object was to annunciate the principle. He was willingto p leave the matter of regulating the language to the Corn- E mittee on Revision. The principle uponi which he in- so sisted in this branch of the amendment was, that all a] laws of general nature should be utiforin in their operation throughout the State. Was notthat a correct re principle? Was it proper that we should have one p 16 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATEES-THuRltSDAY, JANUAP.Y 2. right to parcel out, to portions of the people that pow- to make it operative! To what pass are we bringieg right to parcel out to portions of the people that power which,they receive from the whole pe(ople? Mr. RANNEY meant to maintain that, if the peopie of a given locality were to be affected by any law, it was reasonable for the people of that locality to be allowed to say whether they will have the law or not; and he meant to maintain, that upon the passage of a general law, affecting the business and interests of the people, it was reasonable that all the people should have an opportunity of saying whether they will have it or not. In all this he saw no departure from correct principles. :When gentlemen affirm that we are all tenacious about keeping away,from the people the power to ratify the doings of their agents, he would beg leave to say that he was not to be included amongst those who were subject to this charge. On the contrary, he believed that the people should be consulted upon the propriety of the passage of every important general law. The question was now taken upon the adoption of Mr. STANTON'S amendment. M r. CURRY demanded the yeas and nays, an d th e same being ordered and taken, resulted-yeas 17, nays 69, as fo llows: YEAS-Messrs. Bennett, Collings, Curry, Culer, iwart, Gray, Hamilton, Harlan, Hootman, Sunter, Larsh, Ma son Nash, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warten, Stanton and Wilson-17. NA.T-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blair, Blick ensderfer, Brown o f Athens, Brown of C arroll, Cahill, C as e of Hockdy, oring, ase of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jon-es, Kennon, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Otis, Patterson. Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stebbinq, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Woodbury, Worthington and President —69. So the amendment to the amendment was disagreed to make it operative! To what pass are we bringing ourselves, when this body allows themselves to-declare that, submission of important questions to the peopleris unconstitutional, and an infring emen t of the Legislea,-. tivre po w e r! Mr. NASH. This whole matter, in respect to orl porations, is provided for in a special section. Mr. COLLINGS. That is what we have first refused to do. The question being now tak en on agreeing to the' amendment of Mr. SMITH of Warren, Mr. STANTON demanded the yea s an d nays, and Mr. CURRY demanded the ~~~~~~~~~~~yeas and'nays, andteClig,Co,CryDoeyEwr,wigFarFlr being ordered resulted, yeas 47, nays 41, as follows: YE6 ai.-Messrs. Ba rbee, Barret o f Montgomery, Bates, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Gr a y, Greene ot Defiance, Greggo Hard, Harlan, Hender son, Holmes, HoOtma n u, Hunt, Johnson Kennon, King, CLaawrence, Lee ch, Leadbe tter, Lidey, Lourdon, Manon Mitchell, Nash. Norris,t Otis, Quigley, Reemelin, Molle, Sawer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Spmi th of Warren, Stebbins, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance o f Butler, Warren, Way, William s and Wilson-47. NAYs-Messrs. Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Browne of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Dors ey, Ewart, E -wing, Farr, Florence, Gillett, Gree n o f Ross, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Ciuyahoga, Holt, Horton, HumphrevillS, Hunter, Jones, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Pat ter son, Ranney Scott of Harrison, Smith of Hi ghland, Smith of Wyandot. Stanbery, Stanton, Swift, Taylor, Woodbury, Worthington and President-41. So the amendment of Mr. SMITH of Warren was agreed to, and the se c tion, a s amend e d, re ads as follows: "SEc. 31. All laws of a general nature, shall have a uniform oper ation, nor shall any law be p assed to take effector be operative upon the approval of an y other a uthori ty thlanl the Ge neral Assembly, except as otherwise prov ided in th is constitution." Mr. LEADBETTER prop osed further to amend the report by inserting, in lieu of section twenty, which was stricken out, the following: SEc. 24X, Contefted elections for officers elected to the Executive Department, Judges of the Supreme Court, and a ll other officers which may b e elected by th e Stat e at large shall be determined by both Houses of the General Assembly in such manner as shall be prescribed by law. And that the General Assembly sha'l provide by law for the c ontest of the election of all other officers elected under the provisions of this constitution, and such other officers as may be elected un der legislative enactments. The question being upon the adoption of the amendment, the same was agreed to. Mr. SWAN moved to further amend the report by striking out section thirty nine, and inserting the fol lowing: "Private property shall ever be held inviolate, but subser vient to the public welfare. When, in time of war or other public exigency, impera tively requiring an immediate seizure of private property for public use, a full compensation shall be made to the own er in money. And in all other cases, in which the public, good shall require private property to be talken for ptblic use, a full compensation therefor, shall first be mode to the owner in money, and such compensation shall be assessed by a jury, and without deduction on account of the public use being a benefit to any property of the owner." Mr. SWAN remarked that no such exigency as that alluded to, might occur, but he thought it the dictate of wisdom that such an exigency should be provided to. And then the question again recurred upon the amendment of Mr. SMITH of Warren. Mr. COLLINGS. This last vote had brought us to the precise question which he desired to see presented. It had been urged in argument, that if acts of the Legislatures of other States, passed and left open for the ratification of the people were unconstitutional, acts of the same character should be unconstitutional in this State. But, if it should happen, that this should not be the true construction, then this provision must be, regarded as an infringement upon the Legislative power. It was proposed her e to confer all the lawmaking power upon t he Legislature. He was apprehensive that, in creating this agency, there was danger of going to t he o ther extre me, and so narrowing down the power of the people, that nothing could be done without the intervention of the Legislature. We had now come to the vote, whe ther i t should be constitutional for counties and townships to say, by their votes, whether they will accept or reject a legislaiive-enactment. Suppose this section to be adopted, and the Legislature to pass an act of incorporation, be ore it couitd be effective, it would first have to be ac cepted b y thos e to whom it might be addressed. But it would be in the Constitution, that, unless a law could be made effective without the approval of any other au thority, it mnust be void. Would not this be narrowing down the power of the Legislature? It seemed to him like a proposition- to bring the wheels of government to a perfect stop. The act of incorporation, (he conitinued,) must be accepted; and it can be of no effect until it is acepted; yet you say the vote of the company is no for.- - - Mr. SMITH of Warren moved to amendthe amendment, (Mr. SWAN'S,) by striking out- the word:'first," where it occurs, so that the latter part of Mr. SWAN's proposition would read:;' And in all other cases in which the public good shall require private proper, ty to be taken for public use, a full compensation therefor shall be made to the owner," &c., &e. The amendment to the amendment was disagreed to. The question then being upon the adoption of Mr. SwAN's amendment, t fI I I s s t I r t 228 OHIO CONVENTIOPN DEBATES —THURSDAY, J 4NUARY 2. Mr. HORTON demranded a division. the property of individuals and the actual edge o$ The question then being on striking out, the water in the reservoir. At such times thi strp Mr. CURRY denlanded the yeas and nays, and be- is claimed by fishermen and others as public prope'j ing ordered, resulted yeas 59, nays 29, us follows: and they enter upon it at will, causing great incofr VMesr aree Baret of Montgomery ates venience and oftentimes damage to the adjoios b Ya —Msr:Barbee, Barne~t of Montgomery,Bte,frsNoinyoni,whntistpo n, lnenoelt Blickensderfer, srown of Athens, Brown of Carroll farms. Now in my opinion, when thisst of lanm Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, (.hamhers, Chaney, Cutler, left bare by the receding waters, cannot e ued fo Dorsey. Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Flo:ence, Gillett, Green of public purposes it should be deemed to be the prop Ross. Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga Holt person fr Hootman, Hoi ton, Humlihreville, Johnson, Kennon, Larsh' erty, and in the possession of those person m Lawrence Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudo, Manon, Maso wo the State obtained it. Morris, Mc,i,loud, Nash, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Sawyer, And it is my humble opinion that in all ce Scott of Augla~~~-iz e l ers mt of Highland, Smtho Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Highland.Smitl of where rivate property has been condemned for nub Warren, Smith of Wyandot Stainbery, Stdiger, Struble, that property should revert to the divu* Swan Talor Thopso ofSheiy Wrre ~ ilia's'lic use, that property should revert to the 5ddividua~ 'Swan t Talr hompson of Shelby Warren, W'illiams, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthington-59.' when thZ public interests no longer require its uts NAYS-Messrs. Blair, Cahill Clark, Collings, Curry, Gray, The public interests can never require anything more Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Holmes, Hunt, than the use of the land-when the necessity r that Hunter, Jones, Mitchell, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin use has passed, the property itself should die, Roull, Scutt, of Harrison, Stanton, Stebbin s, the property itself shoult reert to T'hompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Way and the person having the fee simple. President-29. IMr. NASH. My impression is that under the act of So the motion to strike out was agreed to. 1825, the State obtained the title in fee simple, to the The question then being on agreeing to the amend lands adjoining the St Mary's reservoir in Mercer ment of Mr. SWAN, county. This being the case, those who conveyed Mr. HOLT moved to amend the amendment by those lands to the Statecan have no claim whatever adding, at the end of the same, the following: to a reversion, when the State ma no longer ue those lands for the purposes originally intended -And in all cases where the real estate of individuals has Mr. SMITH of Warren, suggested that the gelt,l been, or may be, appropriated for public uses, only such use man from Montgomery (Mr. ROLT, should so amend thereof, shall be had. as mnay be required for public conve nience, the fee simple remaining in the individual owners." his proposition that it should act in cases where pri Mr, SMITH of Warren moved to perfect the words vate property is hereafter condemned for public uae. Mr. HFOLTP. The very case, (St. Ma-ry'sresito be inserted, by striking out the words "hlas been," 7 Mr. HOLT. The very case, (St. reason rw ewhich was disagreed to.' voir,) to which I have alluded, is one reason why l 4+ which was disagreed to. sr ohv h rvso eratv. Mr. HOLT. I freely declare that I am in favor of sire to have the provision retroactive, the right of the State to take private liroperty for Mr. OTIS. I cannot support either the proposition public use, but the public needs nothing but the use of the gentleman from Moutgomery (Mr. HOLT,) or thtt of that property. I hold that when that, property is juist offered by my friend from Warren (Mr. 1S9T,) for nio longer needed for public purposes, to subserve the new constitution contains a provision thatwhe which it was condemned and appropriated, it should private property is condemned for public use the revert to the owner. Where private property is coni- owner shall be paid therefor its full value in mon.d veyed to the State or to an incorporated company for and irrespective of the benefits conferred upon arTy a consideration, in which case the owner parts with it other property, by the construction of a public worl willingly and parts with the fee simple, of course for which a portion of hisproperty maybecondemnec such property would not revert to the individual Now take the case of a Railroad company which tam who had thus conveyed it, although the State or the purchased an acre of land and pad its full value i i omupany to which it was conveyed might come to money, if the charter of that company is repealed, or have no use for it in accordance with the design with by any means the company is dissolved, I can see no whisic it was originally obtained. But where prop- reason why that acre of land, for which the private erty is condemned, against the owner's will, for pub- owner has been fully paid, should revert to his poa lic use; either for the use of the State or of incorpo- session. Most clearly it rightfully belongs to the. rated compaiies, to whom the State has granted the company and is a part of its assets. Or a Rairoad' right of "eminent domain," theis I say, when the pur- company might build a Depot upon a lot. of ground poses for which that property was frst taken have for which, at the time it was taken for public use; it been abandoned, the property should revert to the had made full compensation in mnoney, and in coupe owner in whom the fee simple still vests. The right of time it might be advisable to change the'locatV,n to the possession of that property is justly denied of the Depot, leaving the ground whereon it stood va him, so long as the public interests require that po- cant,or unoccupied for the specific purposes for whic session, but when the public, iii whose name the prop- it was originally condemned. It mustbeevidsnt fo erty was condemned, no longer requires its use, then all,in such a cases the individual from'whom the tarl the owner should be reinstated in the possession and was obtained, by the company, can have no rightfid use of his property. claim to the reversion of the property. Ihave a case in my mind at this time, which may Mr. STANBERY said he was opposed to the serve to illustreate the use of a proposition like the one' amendment proposed by the gentleman from MonI have offered. gomery (Mr. HOLT.) And he was surprised to see So)me year, since the Statle. obtained from private that learned and' experinced delegate graveymakiug owii,rsa quaaity of laud in Mercer county, for the a proposition purely legislative in its character-p purpose of co.recting a large- reservoir, for Canal posing to engraft in the organic law of the State apAm purposes T he owners of the land adjoining the vision to meet an isolated cas-tocorr3ectancy.i lv.I cal: area set off for the reservoir, have fenced in their own in its character. estates, up to theline which divides them from the Sir, it is such propositions as theseeproositiori public property, but leaving the side next to the wa- of a legislative character and going into minute d ter unenclosed. At an ordinary stage of water, the tails-that have consumed three-fourths of'the time of whole reservoir area is overflowed, and the water this convention. comes up to the line of the adjoining farms, andforms If members would but confine themselves to those a natural enclosure on that side, But in the time of general principles which alone can be legitimately low water a considerable strip of land is left between discussed in connection with the framing of an o 22,9 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —THuRSDAs, JANUARY 2. anic law for a greatState, this convention could close SWAN'S] is much better, still it embraces provsi lns for is session within one month. which 1 cannot vote. Tshe question being on agreeing to Mr. HoLT's Mr. MANON. As a former, I will say that Ideem a&tndment, he demanded the yeas and nays, and be- the pending proposition [Mr. SwANr's-above recited;]igi6rdered, resulted-yeas 22, nays 66, as follows: to be in accordance with the interests of the Agricul — Messrs. Clark, Dorsey, Greene of Defiance, Hender. tural population of the State. As a farmer, I am son, Holmes Holt, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones not willing that a Railroad Company should take of] LaoWrencee Leecri, Manon, Mitchell, Ranney, Roll, Sawyer, a strip from niy farm, and pay me for it ill "supposed c.tt pof Augaize,$trnhle. Tho'pson ofShelby, Towashend benefits," while my neighbor, by the side of whose and President —92. NAySMessrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, farm the road runs, without touching it, receives Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of eqial "benefits" with me, and yet loses none of hisCarroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Cham- Id, d bq{, Chaney, Collings, Curry, Ewart, Farr, Florence, Gillet, Mrrt .Gay, Green of Ross. Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Mr. CUTLER. The section relative to the tem Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hootman, Horton, Hunter, upon which private property can be taken for public IKdsnon' King. Larsh, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mason, use, as originally reported, provided that in no case, Morehead Morris, MIcCloud, Nash, Norris, Otis, Patterson, could private propert be taken without damages first Q t'gley, iteemelin, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith Pebmelin. Ric ~~~~assessed by a jury irrespective of any benefits conof Highland, Smith f Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery assessed by a jury, irrespective of any benets conStanton, Stebbins, Swan, Swift Taylor,Thompson of Stark, ferred upon any other property of the' owner, and the Va,.ce of Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson Wood' amount of damages must be'paid in money, before bery and Worthington-66.'' possession of the land could be taken for public use So the amendment to the amendment was disagreed The pending proposition, (Mr. SwAN'S substitute, to~~~~. -; = ~~~~~is preferable to the original section, still it is too an:The question then being on agreeing to the amend- tagonistic to a legitimate spirit of internal improvement of Mr. SWAN. ments to receive my support. Mr.'MASON moved to amend the amendment by The gentleman from Licking, (Mr. MANON,) has apstriking out all after "Jury," to wit: strike out these pealed to the farmers in this body to go for the prowords {&and without deduction on account of the pub- position now before the Convention. Sir, I am a farlie' use being a benefit to any property of the owner." mer-a practical farmner-and I tell that gentleman, ,~~ ~ ~~~~~ p r o, s n Mr. M. said that for a moment he desired to call at- and declare to this body, that any provision which tentio to that class of roads Which was coeval with will throw so many obstacles in the way of public th: settlement of the State, and the construction and iniprovenients, is the mnost deleterious —the most rurepairing of which would be sadly obstructed by the inous, to the farming interest. adoption of a constitutional provision, that in all cases| Take the case of farmners,who,,like myself, live two compensation must first be made to the owner of pri- hundred miles from this city, Cincinnati is our best vate property needed for public use. if not our only market town, but we, who have to Take the case of a man who owns a tract of cold wagon our produce over mud roads, or resort to a still swamp land, which is unproductive and comparative- more expensive mode of transportation,- cannot comly valueless. The route of a-road is perhaps for a dis- ipete with farmers who live within a circuit of twenty taqce of three miles laid out through that swamp land, I miles from this city. We wish access to this point in and by the provision now proposed to be inserted in the speediest and the cheapest manner possible. This the constitution, the damages done to that land by the access can be obtained Lest by a Railroad. Under construction of the road over it must be as sessed and the present law, the right of way for a road, for twenfirstpaid in money, irrespective of any benefits confer- ty-five miles from this city, will cost four thousand red upon surrounding land of the same owner. In dollars per mile. Bult under a constitutional provisorder to the proper construction of the road, ditches ion, like the one now proposed, (preoviding for the must be dug on each side of its line for purposes of assessment of danmages dlone to privateproperty takenI drainage.. By this means, the vast tract of land on for public use, witiewit regard to benefits conferred each! side of the road is drained, and made at once upon othlier property off the same owner, and pnoviarable, productive and valuable. It may be that the ding that the nioi'v,hallfirst be paid,) the right of owner of that swamp land might have made money way for a road for twenty-five miles from Cincinnati by paying one thousand dollars for the drainage of will cost tw elve tliousanid dollars per mile. The farhis land, to say nothing of the benefits conferred by mers and land owIl(ners along the preppsed line of a the proximity of the road itself, and yet by the pro- railroad leading fromn this city far back into the counvisions of the constitution he can claim damages for try, are hostile to the construction of such a road, bethe narrow strip of land on which the road bed is cause it brings theproduce of the country into market constructed, and they must be assessed without re- -it briDgs the farmers of the distant counties into gard to benefits and must be paid in money, before a competition with them-it destroys the mnonopoly of stake can beset or a spade put into the ground. I the narket, enjoyed by those living withini a few ask gentlemen if this is right? I appeal to the far- miles of the city, while the country farmers are shut mers in this body, to reflect, before they vote for a pro- out by the distance and the bad roads. Hence the position which will throw so many and such serious owners of land within twenty-five miles of Cincinobstacles in the way of the necessary improvements nati, will ask the most exorbitant prices for the right of the country-the construction of turnpikes and of way, in order, if possible, to prevent the construeplank roads, to say nothing of railroads britiging the tion of roads leading into the countiy. Under the distant counties within a few hours travel of the best provisions of the present Constitution, they are premarkets in the west. c cluded from thus interposing an impassable barrier to The people have not called for such stringent pro- the construction of works of public improvement; visions with regard to the right of way for public im upon which the aggregate prosperity of thek peo pleof ~ provements Had such provieions, so discouraging to Ohio so entirely depend. the settlenieut of a new cou ntry, formed a part of the But, sir, adopt the provision now irn debate-declare present Constitution, far different would have been the in your organic law that no property shall be takencondition of the people of Ohio to day. for public use, without compensation first made in I am glad that the section at originally reported has money, and without an assessment of damages firreb~en stricken outs the proposition now submitted [Mr. spective of the benefits which thetpublic impro evment 230 O-H-IO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 3. l Szc. 4. The people shall have the right to bear arms f0r f their defence and security, but standing armies in time,d peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept gtpI t and the military shall be in st, ict subordination to the civil power. "' SEf ac. 5. The right of trial by jury, as heretofore Used,, kd herein provided, shall be inviolate. SEC. 6. There shall be no slavery in this State, nor inVg1 untary servitude,,unless for the punishment of crimes - Sec. 7. All men have a natural and indefeasible right - to worship Almighty God according to the dictatep of f their own conscience. No man shall be compelled to.atte.4, erect, or support any place of worship, o, maintain any fo0s of worship against his consent, and no preJerence shall o given by law to any religious society, nor shall.any inter ference with the rights of conscience be pern itted, No rll gious test shall be required as a qualification for any o0,1 But religious morality and knowledge being essential to g og,! government, it shall be the duty of the legislature to paqs tsuitable laws to protect every religious denomination tif-the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship, aW to encourage schools and the means of instruction. S EC. 8. The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus, shalt not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion or inva sion, the public safety may require it. SEC. 9. All persons shall be bailable, by sufficient suretiesq, unless for capital offences where the proof is evident. oraths presumption great. Excessive bail shall not be required,'nos excessive fines imposed. nor cruel and unusual punishmntsi inflicted. - SEC. 1l. No person shall be held to answer for a capita. or otherwise infamous crime (except in casrs of impeact ment, and in cases arising in the Army and Na'vy or, in, thi Militia, when in actual service in time of war, or public dan, ger, and in cases of petit larceny, and inferior, and in pablli,. offences) unless on presentment or indictment of a Gran, Jury. And in any trial in any court whatever, the party ac cused shall be allowed to appear and defend in person, acidl with counsel, to demand the nature and cause of the acCus) tion against him, and to have a copy thereof to meet tlh witnesses face to face, and to nave compulsory process ti, procure their attendance-nor shall any person be compelit in any criminal case, to be a witness against hiimself or i subject to be twice put in jeopardy for the same offence. SEc. 11. Every citizen may freely speak, write and pub lish his sentiments, on all subjects, being responsible for t,e abuse of the right, and no law shall be passed to restrain dt abridge the liberty of speech, or of the press. In all c im,Iil prosecutions or indictments for libels, the truth may be gsinge in evidence to the jury, and if it shall appear to the jury tb,&at the matter charged as libellous is true, and was publishedw good motives, and for justifiable ends, the party shall be a4 qui tted. SEc 12. No person shall be liable to be transported 0out4 of the State, for any offence committed within the samfe, SEC. 13. No soldier shall, in time of peace, be'quartteredi.irW any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in timedf war, except in the manner prescribed by law. SEC. 14. The right of the people to be securevin tbeirl.er sons, houses, papers and possessions, against-unreasoiiabLe searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no wanrra.t shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath aoi affirmation; particularly describing the place to be searcthtd, and the person and the things to be seized. I.- .SEC. 15. No person shall be imprisoned for debt in an. civil action on mesne or final process, unless in (ases IB fraud. SEc. 16. The levying of taxes by the poll, is grievous-iniel and oppressive, and the same shall not be done for State or County purposes. SEC. 17. No hereditary emoluments, honors or privileges shall ever be granted or conferred by this State. SEC. 18. 1No power of suspending laws shall ever be execised, unless by the Legislature. SEC. 19. This enumeration of powers shall not be acolstrued to impair or deny others retained by the people,:ana all powers not herein delegated, remain with the people..: On motion of Mr. NASH the Report was laidoh the table and order ed to be printed. IOn motion of Mr. BENNETT the Conventlon ~!.journled. t-. may confer upon other property of the owner, and you virtually say to the people, especially the people of the remote counties, "You shall have no encourage -ment for the developement of the resources of the country-we will throw every obstacle in the way of the construction of roads of every kind, and you may either get to market as best you cn, ovet the mutid roadsof the country, or reman shut out from the ad vantages of the best markets of the State. The re sult, is that the roads necessary to the improvement of th e country, will never be bult. I wish that these thingb t pight be vi ewed in a practical light before a vote is taken u pon this question. Is it not clear, in the case I hav e pu t, that the eight thousand dollars per mi l e add i tional cost of a railroad leading from t hi s ci t y into the country, would fall upon the people of the col -ntry to pay? If, indeed, it did not operate againstt t he con setr utti ros of the roa d at all. I Suppose it is proposed, to change the location of a county road, runsnieg over a h illy p orti on of the coaun try. In m any cases su ch r oads were located most dis advaintage oiusly, at tha simhe the country wa s first set tled. The effect of te provision insisted upon by the tio t uoby genatlemeI fro m m Knox and Hiamiltond [Messrs. MITCH 3;LL and REgmELxIj] would be this; you could not lay off an d construct ole of these coiunty roads across n,w cands, witho ut f irst su hnmoni,~g a jury to assess the damriages, which mRust he done without taking into ac count the binlieils, conferred byaogwih t he building of th e roayl, updi adejoeing li p roperty of the same ownier, and th,pr the ainouptt of damages must be paid in money, before you could take possession of aly private prop ertv. This maiv c ost some two hundred and fifty dotllars per mile. How many counties are there in Ohio abl e to pay that price lor the right of way f or a ou rity road? And, I beg gentlemen to obse rve, who it is th a t r eaps the a dvantages from t evns tono th e nstruction of thee roads. N(ot the people of the entire county,who would becomi pelle,t! to pay this enhanced price of the right of way for somne side road; not at all, lbut the land owners along i the line of the road who use it, but who have taken ad — vantage of this colistitutlio a! provision to have a road I constructed at the public expense for their almost exclusive benefit, and receive the full price of so much of their lated as was necessary to build their own road. Mr. Presidenit, I am opposed to any such provision as the one now in debate,atd shall vote againsct it. On mnot on of Mr. VANCE of Bu-Ir,~, he re[ ort of the committee on the legislative departmen;-., was then laid on the table. Mr. VANCE of Butler fronm the committee on " Preamble and Bill of Rights'" on leave submitted the following: Report No. 1, of the Standing Committee on the Pre amble and Bill of Rights. PREAMBLE. YVic the people, of the State of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom;- to secure its blessings and promote our commnoni wellare, do estab,lish this CONSTITUTION. ARTICLE I. DECLARATION OF PtlGHTS. -~c 31:.l. All men are, by nature, free anti independent, and have certain inalienable rights, amlong which, are those of, enljoying -and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting, property, andt seeking and ubtainsing, happi-aess and safety SEc. ~2 Al} political power is- inherent in the people —ay. erlnmen~t is instituted for their e'lial protection and benefit. arid they have thee right to alter or- reform the same e henever they may deem it necessary. . SEC. 3. The people-'sha~ll have the right to assemble together, on a peaceable manner, to consult for their -common .good, to instruct their repreisenta~tives, and to petition the legi slature for the redress of grievanices. I I I. I I I t i 2ZI,l SEVENTY-EIGHTH DAY FRIDAY, Ja]D Uary 910'CLOC.R A. M. The Conventioii met pursuant to adjournment. Ir. RANNEY presented a petition from Charle -ik. Brighan and fifty-seven other citizens of Trumb-t I county, praying ihat a clause be inserted in th"e- n(,v BATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 3. The same gentleman presented a petition from Rebecca Rainsford and thirteen hundred and twenty- tiur ladies of Hami!t,r county on the same subjec,t. Mr. DORSEY presented a petition from Sarah Smnith and sixty four other females of Morgan county on the samesubject. Mr PRESIDENT presented a petition from Sarah E. Clark and one hundred and seventy other ladies of Perry county on the same subject. Said petitions were severallv referred to the select committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. Report number one of the standing comrmittee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights was read a second tile by izes title and on motion of Mr. SMITH of Warren comi,itted to a commrnit'ee of the whole Conven. Report number two of the standi)g commiltee oDn Militia was read a s,econd time by its title and on motion of Slr. REEMELIN laid on the table. Mr. SAWYER imoved that the Convention take up the report of.he Standing Conmmittee on the Legislative department; whicht was agreed to;, and said report was taken up. Constitution, prohibiting the Leoislature from hassinE any law legah]ziing traffic in spirituous liquors. ;Mr. CHAMBERS presented a petition from Mary J Campbell and four hundred and thirty-nine other la :dies of ]Yuskingum county, on the same subject. Mr. QUIGLEY presented two petitions fromn Lydia Davis and four hundred and fifty-seven ladies of Columbiana county, on the same subject. ,r. 8MITH of Warren, presented a petition from David Silver and ninety-four other citizens of Warren county, on the same subject. tAlso,the petition of J. T. Miller and thirty-eight other citizens of the same county, on the same subject. Also, the petition of Elizabeth B. Farr and one hunded and twenty-four other ladies of the same county, on "he same subject. Said petitions were severally referred to the Select Co~nmittee on the subject of "Retailing Ardent Spirits."s Mr. SMITH of Warren, presented a petition from Cja Anderson and seventy-six other ladies of Ohio, :raying that a clause be inserted in the new Constitu. tion, securing to all persons, without regard to sex or color, the same rights which belong to males. Referred to the Committee on Miscellaneous Subjeote and Propositions. Mr. LARSH presented a petition from Martha J. die of Preble county, p raing that a clause be inserted en the new Co nstitutin, wrohib tin the Legislatuie from passing any law legalizing traffic;n spirituous liquors. Mr. SWAN presented a petition from Mary Clark and one hundred an d nine ty-seven other l adie s of Franklin coun ty, on the same subject. Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from Mary A. abrt relr and three hundred and twenty-one ladies of c(,tiermont county, on the same subject. Mr. CHANET presented a petition from Saralh J. Flatt ery and one hund red and eighty-one other female s of Fairfield county, o n the same subject. Mr SWIFT prese nted a petition from Amanida Mert tl and three hundred and eighty-nine other ladies of -St,emit county, on the same subject. Mr. HITCHC OCK of Cuyahoga, presented a petrition from HC.. Carlton and twenty-tive other citizens of Geauga county, on th e same subjec t Also, the petition of, G. B. Waterton and forty-two other citizens of the same county, on the same subject. . Alsothapetition of Seth Herman and seventy other ~ettikens of Ohio, on the same subject. The same gentleman presented a petition from Noah Gt'avis and thirty-two other citizens of Cleveland, praying that the right to participate in the government equally with men, be secured to women in the new Constitution. Referred to the Committee on "Miscellaneous Subjeets and Propositions." Mr. HARD presented a petition from E. Hudson and two hundred and seventy-three other females of Eliot<) county, praying that a clause be inserted in the slew 0onstitution, prohibiting the Legislature from p~assing any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors~ Mr, CAHILL presented a petition from'Sarah Mason and one hunldredi and twelve other females of Richland county on the same subject. M>r, OROES3BECK presented a petition from Abigal Eg. Simmons and tliirty-nline othercitizens- of Hamilton county on tBecsame subject. THE LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. The question being upon the motion or Mr. Mason to amend the amendment offered by Mr. Swan, to thie 39th section of the report: Mr. SAWYER. said that when the question was upon striking out, for the purpose of admitting tihe artnendr,ent now under contsideration, as proposed by the. gentlemana,fromn Franklin, (Mr. SwAN,) he thought it was u nderstood,that was tlhe aiieninmeniet that was to be inserted. Ile supposed thait state of lfacts to }eave been tacitly agreed upoll. Now however, when the section is stricken out, gentlemtren raise questions going to the principles of thtesection. He thought this was not fair dealing, and he warned genltlemenll against the consequences of conducting in I his manner. Mr. CURRY thought tlhe lecture of the gentlettan from Auglaize. [Mr. SAWYEP] did tot apply. So far from it being unlderstood that the areenditient of tie gentleman from Franklin. (Mr. SWAN) bras to be adopted without amendmentt, the otiiotlon to divide the quesI tion was made for tbe. very purpose o)f giving thee opportunity for amendment, after the section lad been stricken out. Mr. MANON spoke with mnuclh zeal upon the lica: benefits which accrue from the construction of Railroads. Mr. Clark moved the previous question upton the report and amenknents, which was seconded. The question then b.eing: Shall the main question be now put? I gMr LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 3.-6, nays 59; as follows: YEAs —Messrs. C ahill, Chambers Chaney, Clark, 4'ook., Ewinlg. F'orbes, Gillett, Gray,(Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hootman, Hunt HuHunter, Li(ley, Loudon, Morris, (irton, Patterson, Quigley, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stidger, Swan,,Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thnipson of Stark, Warren, Way, Wilson. Woodbury and President-.6. -NAys-Messrs. Archbold. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bat s, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Colli.ngs, Cutlier. Dsoisey, Ewart, Floience, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga Holmes, Holt, Horton, Humphrevile. Johnson Jones, Ken. non, King, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter,, Manon, Ma ason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, MCCormick, Nashl-, Norris, Otis, Peck, Ranney, Reemelin, iddle, BoUl, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Watren, Stanberq, Stanton. Struble, T''ownsheand, Vance of Butler, Williams and WVortoing ton-59. So the Convention refused to sustain the prev-iou s question ,!a-92 -OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRDAY, JANUARY 3. to keep from the hands of the citizen his property, for years. He would vote for no such proposition,whether as applicable to property taken by the State for its own use, or by mere private corporations for theism'. He held that the same rule should apply in both case. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE said that gentlemen had argued this question under a misapprehension as to the practical effect, which hlie proposed to correct. The object of the section was to apply to cases where property has been taken by the State, for its own uSes, and not to those cases where it is taken by an incor porated company, to carry forward the purposes of its organization He knew that under the present consti tution,'an idea had become prevalent, and-a practice had grown up under it, that property taken by incor porated companies was, in some sort, for the public use. But we are about to establish a new rule. The provision regarding corporations, will be found in the fifth section of the report of the Committee on Corpo rations, other than for banking. It is as follows: "The right of way may be granted by general laws to corporations: Provided, the same shall not be appropriated to the use of any incorporation, until full compensation therefor be made in money, irrespective of any benefit or advantage to the owner, from any improvement proposed by such corporation; and provided further, the amount of compensation,5shallf b ascertained by a jury of twelve men, in a court of record, or shall be prescribed by law." He believed the rule intended by the committee to be this: That corporations were to have the power to secure to themselves the right of way, by a process of compulsion, if it should be necessary; but for no other species of property of whatever kind or description, were they to be placed upon any other footing than mere private citizens. If they want timber, or stone, or gravel, they must buy it in the market, and pay for it as others. But adifferent rule should be established for the State. In that connection he cared little whete ther the word " first" was retai ned or not, though he rather preferred it should. But when incorporated compagnies se ize upon the property of citizens, he wanted the securi ty to be perfect; to have the money paid, whe n the property is t aken. Mr. LAWRENCE. How is he more secure With the public than with private corporations? Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. The public is just * the people feel safe when they rely upon its faith. But in regard to the section and amendment, he would say, he did not think a great deal of injury would arise in practice, by forcing companies to pay for property before they take it. If they want it, let them go to the pro, prietor, buy it, and pay for it as individuals, and all this argument as to the obstruction, falls to the ground. Re-spectiig, however, wliat are denominated works of public improvement. undertaken by the State, he hop; we were to have no more of such. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga,thought the gentleman from Medina had taken but a superficial view of the subject. If it is true that the people have decided that there shall be no more public works in the state, where is the necessity of providing that property taken for their construction,shalll be paid for before itris taken,or at any other time, or of fixing any reg-ulatioais regarding it. But there are certain works of improyalmenit which the public will construct, and what are they? They are roads leading from one part of the country to another. They are constantly demanded by the'increasing progress of the country- But in such ~ cases, t his provision would allow a rich Shylock to stay the progress of an important line of publiQ road fior three, four, or five y;ears, until -he has forced from the Theo question then being on the amendment offered by Mr. MASON. - Mr. CUTLER demanded, the yeas and nays, which being orderad, resulted, yeas 29, nays 66, as fol ,lows: YEA-Messrs. Archhold, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown ofCarr oll, Case of Hocking, Chamber, Colings, Cutler, wing, uter, t Florence, Gillett, Hamiltoi, Horton, Larsh, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, MCloud, wPeck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of wighland, Smith of Warren, $tanbery,,Stanton and Worthingtoni-29. NAYS-Messrs. Barbee, Blair, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey Ewart, Forbes, Gray, Greene of De)fiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Greesbeck, Hard, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Holmes, lHolt, Hootman, Humphieville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson. Jones, King, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle,.Roll, Saw yer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler. Warren, Way, illliams, Wilson, Woodbury and President —6. mSo the amendment wa s l ost. The question then being on the amendment of M r. SWAN. Mr. KENNON moved to insert in sai d amendment, af ter the w ord "made," the words, "or secure to be made." Mr. KENNON, sup pose d that it would not be contended b y a major ity of t he C onventio n that a time migh nt not arrive,when some works of public improvement mightabe necessary The object of th e a m endment he had offered,iwas to provid e, that in case such works shoul d be cont emplated, t hey might not be retarde d, and perh aps d efeat ed, bv th mre mere obstinacy of property holders who might refuse to receive payanent for their property, and tlrus, for y ears perhaps, preven t the progress of the work. We have provided, that the value of property taken, shall be assessei by a jury. Thi is is right. But suppose the owner of the property has a mind to resist. What is to be done. He can ta ke the company to the Court of Common Pl eas, the Supreme Court, the Court in Bank, and back again and i f his lawy er is skilful, and he has the courts of the county of yHamilton to transact his business in, he can retarderen the progress of the work. for two or three years. N ow if there is a great w ork in progress, and a large cap ital invested t o l ie idle, while thi s p r ocess is going on, g rea t l oss must acc rue as the consequence. But if payment is secured, and ampl y secured, that is all which th e justice of the ase requires, for it cannot be contended but that the payment is soon enough, which is m bade whenever the su m to be paid is asae rtained. Mr. REEMELIN would ask the g entleman if it would not be equally wrong, by a pretence of security, to keep a man out of his money, and force him into the law for four or five years, before he could recover it? Mr. KENNON. Doubtless it would, if such a case should happen. But it is not the company that appeals. It is the party, who prevents the progress of the work, by refusing to receive th t which the company is ready to pay him, ana which perhaps a jury has awarded. I want that the payment should be secured, and secured amply-secured to be paid, whenever the'sum to be awarded is finally ascertained. That is all that justice can require. To do more is to do injustice to the other party. Mr. RANNEY said the effect of the amendment of the gentleman from Belmont (Mr, KENNON), would be to fritter away entirely all that protection to private propertv, which was provided in the original section. he proposition has now assumed the shape of a plan for the protection of corporations. Its effects will be I 233 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 3. elers have a right to pass through the adjacent fields, so far as is necessary to avoid the danger The right does not extend, beyond the simple necessity of the case. It involves no doctrine, that is applicable to the principle of public works. The right of the injured party, in such a case,,is not against the traveler, but the proprietors of the road. To them he must look for his damages. Mr. GROESBECK did not think the example put by the gentleman from Franklin applicable to the pres ent case. In such a case, it is not the traveler, but the company that owns the road, that is liable. But to take another view of the case. We desire to fix the rnile, which shall be invariable, that in all cases where private property is invaded, compensation shall first be made. It is admitted that in a few excep t i onal cases public improvements may be temporarily retarded. It is easy to imagine such cases-perhaps easier than to find th em. Butmustwechangeth e rult e to meet every exce p tio n? There will, perhaps, scarcely be found a general rule without a few practical exceptions. But what does the amendment propose? It proposes in the place of payment, to give security, or in other words, to give bonds for the ultimate payment of the sum that may be found due. It allows the property to betaken; and what have you for it? A bond. And if the company should happen to fail, you have nothing but the bond. It is a mere proposition,to take by force the property of a citizen, on a credit, no one knows how long. Mr. KENNON said, that when he proposed the amendment, he thought it a fair and reasonable own At the time he proposed it, gentlemen around him thought it correct; whether they retained that opinion or not, wak of no consequen ce to him. The gentleman from Ha milton, however, supposes it to be unfair in its provisions. Why? Because he sees fit to supp ose a case,where a n insolvent bcorporation has given its bo nds, which it is unable to pay. Is that my proposition? No. What is it?'. That it shall be so cured to be paid. How? By any mode that shall ren der the security perfect-by security upon freehold estate-by a deposit of money-by any means that shall ensure the payment of the money, as soon as the amount is ascertained. Such has been the practice heretofore, and so far as he knew, it had worked well enough. Gentlemen were going on to make these restrictions, as if all men, as individuals, were perfectly honest, and would on all occasions do what is perfectly right. Now my experience in legislation teaches me, that this is not the correct principle. We should, on the contrary, legislate as if men were not all honest, and it is our duty to provide that dishonesty shall not, on either band, have the advantage. An important work is going on. The proprietors go on and make their contracts. It becomes necessary to appropriate a portion of the land of an individual. How is the value to be ascertained? By a jury. The owner is not satisfied. It is appealed to the court of commoti pleas. In Hamilton county, if the case happens there, it may be kept in that court lor five years, if we may credit the popular report. From there it goes to the supreme court, then to the court in batik, and all this time the work must be suspended, because the money must first be paid. And before this it cannot be paid, for it is paid —when? When the application is made, or when the amount is ascertained. It is to guard against this species of abuse that I have proPOsed this amendment. Mr. ARCHBOLD. I invite gentlemen to re~flect upon what they are about to do. It cannot be that they understand the full bearings. Do they intend that whenl a public road is to be made, by a township er a reluctant hands of the people, an exorbitant price for his property. Mr. RANNEY inquired if we have not now good roads all over the country, constructed under the ope ration of the principle,that payment must first be made for all property and materials taken for their construc tion. Mr. HITCHCOCK. Whatever may have been the }aw upon the subject, such has never been the practice. But there has been n o law in existence, by w hich pay m en t mus t n ecessar ily b e made befor e the property was taken. The gentlem an from Trumbull has not perhaps acted as sup erv isor, or he would have seen the difficulty o f such a p rac tice. T ake fo r instanc e a fact which -v ery frequently occurs. A bridge has been swept away by a sudden flood. The exigencies of the public requ ire that it should be s peedily replaced. It is the d uty o f th e Sup ervisor to p roce ed instantly with the work. Ston e, timber and all the materials that are necessary, must be taken fr om the nearest and most convenient place. The Shylock who happens to own the contiguous property, comes and forbids the taking of a stick of timber, a single stoh,e, or a load of gravel, until, at the end of a tediou s and lengthy process, the price is ascertained, an d payment is forced upon him, which is not till he has exhausted every expedi en t of delay. Now if this were a mere private enter prise in which the public wad not interested, the ase might not b e s o se vere. But when the interest of the public de mands, it do es s eem as if a different rule should pre vail. T he arg umen t of t he gentleman from Medina (Mr. HUMPHREVILLI) ha s satisfied me, that th e am end ment ought not to prevail. Mr. MITCHELL. The a rgument of the gentleman from Cuyahoga (Mr. HITCHCOCK) has satisfied me, that it ought to prevail. T he gentleman has arise n here, and talks of his Shylocks, as if they were the only people whose interests could be affected. He draws his arguments from extreme cases- such as can never occu r in practice. It is not a fair mode of argument thus to draw co nclusion s fr om extr eme cases. Mr. Hi ITCHCOCK. I w oul d ask t he gentleman from Knox (MR. MITCHELL,)how, many days and times has the bridge over Owl C reek been w ithout a bridge, and how often iwe has been necessary for the public authorities, to exercise the utmost expedition, to replace that important thoroughfare? Mr. MITCHELL I do not know. But I do not know that the Shylocks have everprevented the ac tion of the public authorities in their attempts to do their duty. Mr. STANBERY would ask th e gentleman from Knox (Mr. MITCHELL) a question. Suppo se a public highway, from some sudden caus e bec omes impassable, and a traveler in passing along finds! h mself unable to proceed, by the road. He has no means of accomplishing his journey, but by passing through a field of wheat upon one side of the road Would he require of the tra veler, before he proceeded upon his journey, to search out and fin d the owner of the whea t field, anti fix u aeon and pay tor the right of way, before he can go through? Mr. MITCHELL thought the rule could not apply to such a case. The case put by the gentleman from Fran~;tin (Mr. S?ANBZRV), is one of extreme public necessity. Mr. $TAI:EBERY. All these are cases of public necessity. Mr. MITCHELL did not expect such a question. from a lawyer of the standing of the gentleman fromn Franklin (Mr. STANBERY). This matter has ever been understood. It is settled by the common law, that when a road becomes dangerous and impassable, tray-. 234 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 3. county, or before trees or stonecan be taken to mend obstinate owners, and in the place of one or two in a the public highways, that without reference to the ur- road of fifteen or twenty miles, we shall have a plenty gency of the public necessity, a jury must sit, and that, of them. after taking time to overcome the obstinacy ofparticu. Mr. REEMELIN. Even at the risk of speaking lar owners, the money must first be paid? when obviously, the Convention is tired of discus Mr. HUMPfiREVILLE. That is precisely the law sion, I will now proceed to expose some of the false asitnow exists. assumptions of those who have preceded me on this Mr. ARCHBOLD. Well, ifsuch is the law, I must question. say as the old woman did; " it is not the reason." If I will, once for all, expose the sophistries under such is the law, it is not the practice. But such is not which my friend from Monroe, (Mr. ARCH]SOLD,)'is the law. challenge gentlemen to produce any such endeavoringto disguise his true position. I know it law. flatters his vanity to be considered the poor man's Mr. HUMPHREV4LLE read the sixth section of friend, and I would have no particular objection to the act entitled "An act for opening and regulating hisassuming that character, if he would not drag on roads and highways,:" passed March 14, 1831; the last the public stage the miserable prejudices that always olause of which is as follows: characterize the gentleman's remarks, upon questions "And if the commissioners shall be satisfied that the of that kind. When he talks of the money lords of amount so assessed and determined, be just and equitable, the city of Cincinnati, and when he speaks of the unand that said road will, in their opinion, be of sufficient im- improved counties in the State of Ohio, when he reportance to the public to cause the damages to be paid by the county, they shall order the same to be paid the petitioner mindsus the hard fisted yeomanry and of the from the county treasury; but if, in their opinion. the said poor men of other parts of the State, and when he road is not of sufficient importance to cause the same to be tells us he is fighting for the latter and against the paid by the county, they may r efuse to establish the same as former, I take it he imust either have been hoaxed preta public highway, unless the damages and expenses are paid ty severely himself, or else he is trying to hoax othb ythe petitioners." y r. RCBOLD. The very law I supposed the ra. If my friend willtake thetrouble, I willgo with Mr. ARCHBOLD. The very law I supposed the!gv gentleman would produce, and I am very certain it him to some of our rich men in this city-I will give does not maintain his- position. him an introduction to Nicholas Longworth, the rich, Mr. ITII'CHCOCK, of Cuyahoga, called the atten- estniaan we have. and he will find that these men and tiou of the gentleman from Medina [Mr. HufrMRE- himself perfectly agree. And if he will go with me, ILL,] to a similar provision o ae 795. but a square from here, I will take him to the office VMLE,] to a similar provision on page 795. Mr. ARCOBOLD. I knew the gentleman from of a Railroad Company, where he may meet some of Mr. ARHBOLD.I kne the gntlema fromour richi men, the L'Homnmedieus, the Fosdicks, and he Medina was not very exact. He had got a general ourrch men, the L'Homedieus,theFosdicks,andhe idea that the damages were to be paid, in some way will there find friends and associates, who will not or other, and he thought that they ought to be paid in only agree with him, but who will applaud him for advance. Butt is there any gentleman here who will the ingenious manner, with which he is defending their interests. they will smile, when they hear themassert that in the construction of a mere county road their interests. they will smile, when they hear them selves abused'by Ythe, gentleman, and they will -take the damages must be paid before the land is taken? Why, at this rate, there are counties in the State, it as a good joke, to have their interests defended uiwhich would have no roads. There are some coun- der the pretence of the poor man's interest, and to hear railprorad interests sustained under the plea of ties in the State of twenty-five or thirty thousand in- hear railroad interests sustained under the pleaof county and township roads —I sav they will laiugh at habitants, who are just acquiring the ability to pay county and township roads-I say they will laugh at for that which it was necessary to take years ago. it, andso far from getting angry at being abused as I tell gentlemen, that they are introducing a new money lords, they will id my fried God speed, in hi,- endeavors to dlefend their interests, even if fie abusrule; such as, at any previous time, has not and never his endeavors to defend their interests even if he abuscould have existed. And it seems to me, that the esthem, andevenifitbedone under the pleaof fightgentleman is rather exorbitant in his demands of mg for poor men. these poor counties. If they cannot pay these de- I say what I know to be so, those men and thi genmands, he would have tnem rode out of the State- tleman from Monroe agree precisely upon this quesinto Kentucky, or Canada, or'to a worse place, which tion, and so far from defending the interests of the I will not mention. He has no sympathy with these poor men, or the poor counties of Ohio, he is now poor counties, and their poor population. Well, that speaking and voting exactly as these nabobs would is natural enough. He is a money-lord-a man of desire him to do. And so far as I am concerned, perimmense wealth-a - sonally, let me assure him that some person has im Mr. REEMELIN. I call the gentleman to order. He posed upon him severely, if he has been made to beis misrepresenting me. He has been hoaxed. lieve that I belong to the rich men of Cincinnati. Mr. MITCHELL rose to a question of order. It However flattering it may be to some men to be deemnwas not in order to discuss the question whether aed rich, I, for one, deem it a case of extreme hardship member of this body was worth half a million or to be charged with wealth that I do not possess. Would not. that the gentleman from Monroe could make me what Mr. LAWRENCE rose to a point of order. It is he thinks I am. (laughter.) out of order to raise one question of order before an- I know that it is easy to appeal to prejudices, easy other is settled. to say that Hamilton county is actuated by a spirit of Mr. ARCHBOLD. It was natural for me to sup- opposition to internal improvements, and that we, se, when the gentleman from Hamilton's [Mr. representatives of the people of this county, instead of rEEMMLIiN,] expenses are so enormous, that he must being actuated by a principle, are only pretendJiug to be very rich. If I have been hoaxed, it is by the be so,for the purpose of creating obstacles to the fair gentleman himself. He said he paid three hundred development of other counties of the State. It is dollars in taxes. This, compared with what I pay on easy to say that wehave got all that we want, here in my little property, makes his wealth look somewhat Hamiltonxcounty, but all such talk is mere humbug, colossal. - and the gentleman at once exposes his ignorance as to The fact that there is a difference in the circum- the real position of Cincinnati, and of the true posi: stances of counties, should render us careful about tion of its representatives, when he makes the statefixing up an inflexible rule in our organic law. The ment. The reverseis true! The gentleman from Monroe rule proposed is one that will increase the number o was very careful to speak of county roads, "town 2 35 011IO0 CONVENTION DEBATES-FRitDAY, JANUA,RY 3. ship roads," and of "bridle paths," and "cow paths." no more than right. It is property that was theretw. As if these were now under consideration, or as if fore the corporation entered it, and no henefits what any difficulty had ever existed in Ohio with reference ever that that compan)ay may pretend to confer upon to such public improvements. I understand the gen that individual, can be setoff, and brought forward, for tieman completely, when he is thus trying to get clear the purpose of getting this person's property out of his of the true question at issue. I not only understand hands The result of tile aepotion of the proposition, the drift of what the gentleman from Monroe wants, will be, that railroad comnpaiies will be more careful, but I can also understand why the President of a and less arrogant in their dealings wiih the rights of Railroad company, as the representative from Wash- private individuals. And so with other incorporated ington county (Mr. CUTLER) is, should talk of this companilies. There will be fewer law suits, and fewer kind of improvements, of county roads and of bridle difficulties of every description. The company will be aths, which belong to the primitive days of Ohio. armed with the right of the public to private property.; f they can, by leading us into the rural districts of the private individual will be armed with the rights Ohio, and by taking us along their "bridle paths" granted to him in his private property; the company and "cow paths," get clear of the true issue here, will pay for what it gets the manl will be paid for what they will have succeeded fully in their purpose. But he must give up. So far, then, there is no injury-no let me say to thenm, that I, for one, at this season of inequality in the relative position of the two. The the year especially, most respectfully decline being private individual has been made to yield to the public taken on either township or county roads, (laughter,) good, and the company has obtained upon fair terms for I have no disposition to be benmired in this discus- what is necessary to carry out the objects of its crew sion, (renewed laughter.) Let me say to those gen- tion, and this is all that I desire. I want to give to tlemen that their pretended simplicity, and their pre- neither party the advantage. I desire to place them, tended defence of county roads and township roads, in contending for their relative rights, in that equal is completely understood, and that however much and fair position that they should occupy towards each they may succeed in throwing dustin their own eyes, other. Should the private owner af'terwards claim they ceriainlyhave nlotsucceeded in blindingthe eyes constructive'arnamage, then constructive benefits may be of others. brought forward as a fair set off against such claims, Sir, it is amusing to hear the President of a rail roa and thus the matter be, not only properly compromis company descant-for full thirty minutes on the mer- ed, but truly equalized. its of county road;,and bridle paths across hilly districts; I cannot see upon what principle any person can ob and to hear lini talk of farmer's wagons sticking in ject to this; every individual in Ohio will thus be se the mud on their way to market, as if that gentleman cured in the possession of his private pro, erty, while had never heard of a Turnpike or a Railroad. Why that right has to yield upon fair considerations, when should hie be chary of mentioning the name of a rail public good demands it. road; why so carefully conceal under the pretence of Mr. MITCHELL said that the practice in the State, fighting for thile obtaining of private property frompub- uponi this subject, had hitherto been correct. The lic good, the fact-that they really want it for private principle had beenii to pay beforehand, and the practice speculation? had been consistent with it, and had given vitality to With regard to the remarks privately made to the the principle. An attempt was no110W being made to gentlenman fromn Monroe, I have only to say, that they break up the practice, and thus destroy the efficiency of were made in reply to the assertion of the gentleman, the principle; and for this purpose a factious and obthat there were counties in this State who had orders stinate individual was invoked. He hoped the Conoutstanding for more than six years. I say that the vention would not be led astray by thisaplarition; and county that thus suffers its finances to get into disorder, he believed that this attack upon a long established whose Auditor and county Commissioners permit its principle, rendered its affintiance in the organic law of creditors aid its people thus to be kept out of money, the State, necessary at this time. and that is thus trifling with the public faith due from MIlr. CASE, of Licking, desired to say a few words a counity to its citizens, is not fit to live in a civilized before he gave his vote upon the proposition of the cotmimnnuLlity like ours. I re-assert it all, I take none gentleman from Belmont (Mr. KENNON), for the reason, of it back. For a county,that has officers, or a people that he believed that without the amendment, the see. that permit such dilapidation, contains within it the tion would present an insuperable barrier to the condirest foes to mankind. The county has to pay double struction not only of railroads, but of every other for every thing it gets, the taxes are double on account species of public improvement in the State, as well by of interest, and a state of affairs must exist, such as counties, as by companies or individuals. The section I had not supposed could exist in Ohio. Such a policy provides that before the property is taken, it must be woulId sink the richest people that ever lived on the first paid for. How? Why the damages must be first globe, aud the poor county whose finances are thus I assessed by a JURY of the county. How long will it managed, will be a poor county till the people residinig take? It may not be settled in two, three, iiay five there will kick out of office, financial agents,that show years. It may be delayed in court. Juries may disathenmselves so incapable of managing public busi- gree. Courts, on the ground that the damages are too ness. high or too low, may grant new trials, and the case may But to the question. What injustice is there in ultimately go to the Supreme Court, and Court in the positionm so ingloriously attacked by our opponents. Bank. The progress of the work in the mean time is It proposes that in case of war or other great public ne- retarded, suspended. If it is a county road, the feelings cessity, private property may be taken at once, render- of the people are excited, enmities are engendered, lawing therefor full compensation subsequently. In all yers are feed, trials had, and the law's delay involied, cast s of public improvemeilts, the principle is asserted so that years may pass before the work can progress. that for property taken, compensation shallfirst be ren- This is unjust. It is unnecessary. It is an excess of dered; the amount to be assessed by a jury. Now, caution on one side, without a propfr consideration for sir, the proposition is precisely the same as the corn- the wants of the public on the other. Justice to all prom.ise effected in the Legislature of this State, after a parties requires no such excess on either hand. We do lone discussion upoln the subject. Property taken for wrong to require a county to stand still for years, until public improvements, such as railroads and other roads, an obStinate land-owner can be forced to an assessment must be paid for before it is appropriated; this I deem of damages. In the county which I represent, there " 36 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAr, JANUARY 3. in r g for tendering, or amply securing the damages that r may be finally assessed by a jury in Court. w o oann Mr. LAWRENCE. The gentleman from Knox - (Mr. MITCHELL,) may have his public and private t tests of the democracy of his fellow members, but I wd ill not permit him to apply-either, to me, in the disc charge of my official duties upon this floor. That gentleman may not have declared publicly in his place, that he considered the vote upon this question a test of a mans democracy; but he very emphatically mt ade such declaration in his seat, within the hearing : of members around himn and as I suppose intended a particularly for mny ear. Now I care very little about that gentleman's opillion, when such opinion inter1 feres with what I deem right and proper. Upon all and every real question involving the principles of the democratic party, I will be found where I have s ever been, but I do not believe that the question un der considerationi involves any such issue. Thereis no difference of opillioni upon the subject of the inviolability of private property,but it should at all times be subservient to tie public welfare, upon justand adequate compensation being made to the owner in monley. The amendmnient to the original Report mans by the committee of the whole requires that when property is thus taken, that it shall "first be paid for,"' t The amendment of the gentleman from Belniont, (Mr. t KF.NNON,) proposes to insert after the word "paid," the following words: "or secured to be paid." I shall vote f for thiis amnendinent with the inteutioti if it shtall pre f vail, of proposing further to amend, in order to make the proposition of the gentleman from Belmont a little 'a!more definite, by adding something like the following: "by depositing asufficient amount of money with the clerk of the court in the county in which the property r is situated, said amount to be determined by one ot the judges of sold court." No gentleman would go tur ther than I would to secure the inviolability of prim r vate property, but in doing so a due regard imust be had to the public interests. Now, sir; I am not in favor of granting special privileges either to the rich or the poor. "The beonte fits and burtliens of government, like the dews of Heaven, should descend alike, upon the rich and the poor, the high and the low." I canntiot be matte to assume the defence of char tered incorporations. I am opposed to all such sp eeia and exclusive grants of power; they are inlconsistent with tht genius and spirit of our republican in)stitu tions, and totally subversive of the prosperity and hap piniess of the people. But in making this de-lar.ttion let me not be misunderstood. I am in favor of associ ations of capital for the purpose of effecting great public inmprovemenlts, which are entirely beyonid the means of a single individual-all such associations tto be allowed and regulated under general laws giving persons thus associated, power to sue and be sued, and determining the succession of their property-when this is done, they are clothed with all the powers ne. cessary for effectitg the legitimnate objects of the-iras sociation, and anv further powers would be incoae. patible with the rights of the ind(iividual citizen. If the convention should disagree to the amend ment now pending, and adop t the amendment of the committ~ee, they wrould thereby, in aly opinion, render -the provmsion securing this sulbservientT of private property to the public welfares whollj ineffectual. It would thetn be within the powelr of a single individu al to arrest the progresss arnd comtpletion ot any imn provemenlt, thoughzl the samee might be -demantded by a great public nlecessity, until the terminalt iol of 7a protracted investigation by the judicial tribunals of the country. Thle word "jury" ii the section must have reference to such legal inlvestigations: Hoaw are some fifty or sixty miles of railroad finished, o about to be finished. The improvement is popular with our people, and while they degnan d a change it tie rule of damages in taking private property for pub tic. use, and ample provisions for its prompt paynent when ascertained, they want no provision which would enable one gman fro m mere capr ic e to delay a public itinprovemenI t f or y ears by litigation. I would, however, suggest a- further amendment tc tile secto ion. I would include public property as well as private, so that if public property sh all be taken, in shall be paidt for as private property. For example: If a p ublic highway shall be taken poss ession of bv E f railroad cImpany and appropriated to i ts use, I can see no reason why the d amages should not be assessed, and th e amoun t paid, say to the count y or t ownship, as in the case of individuals. So in the case where a plank r oa d company has appropriated a public road. taken its t rack and bridges, and put up toll gates upon it, is there any reaso n why it should not pay for the loss and damn atge pu rs the public has thereby sustained? I think there should be somne such provision, and I shall not look upon this sec tion as perfect, until something of the kind is introduced. But, Mr. President; it is said that corporations are wealthy-that they are composed of rich men, and that therefore they need ot to be protected Sir, it is not io in my co unty. pTh e stock of o ur r ail and plank roads, is in the hands of men of moderate means-of farmers, merchants, lawyers, physicians and men o business associations, who have taken some one, sollie five and some tell hundred dollars as ihey had the ability; and instead of corporations for public improvements being unpopular there sir, they are vastly popuiar; anid I know no reason why, when the word "corporation" is named, men should grow so nervous, get in a passion and deem it necessary that every good democrat should curse and damn, in order to keep ill the p:artv. The gentleman fromn Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELIN,) thinks a mar. is entitled to -no standing in the democratic party unless he is dead against all kinds of corporatlicens. Mr. REEMELIN. The gentleman from Lickiing is mistaken-I have not so declared. Mr. CASE. Well I am glad I am mistaken-but really fromn what has been said here by the gentleman I so understood himsand I thought if I was so much opposed to corporations as the gentleman, I would not like him, pick out the largest corporation in this city, the Burnet House, to eat, drink and lodge in. (Laughter.) I have no repugnance to that corporation-I have slept soundly in it, eat good victuals there,and better than all, drank good liquor there too. (Laughter.) Mr. REEMELIN. I sav the gentleman has entirely mistaken rny position it} regard to corporations-I not only recognize their necessity,but regard them as valuable assistants in social life.' . Mr. CASE. The gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHe:LL,) also would make hatred of corporations a test of democracy; and he thinks it will not be long before the democrats will read me out of the party. Not for my defence of corporations for publmc improvemnent~s wrill they do it. I reside in a county where the whole population is interested in workes of public improvement, of great import~ance, and I will say, as a closing remark, that nothing that could happen'wol be so likely to interpose an insulperable bar to the fuorther p~rogrssf tuh~ofegreat worksS, asnthe ninser'N apvANGE." I think the rights of the public and inldiY iduals both will be sufficiently protected by prorid I I I i a (I s p 237 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRiDAY, JANUKRY 3. manifest the injury to the public interests, occasioned by such delays. It would cause much inconvenience and be pregnant with litigation amongst neighbors, in the execution of our admirable system for the con-l struction of roads and highways. Under this limita tion you would be prevented from taking private pro -pertyfor any purpose, until the same should havefirst been paid for. Suppose then a great public necessity demanded private property for thet ocation of a road or the construction of a bridge or for any other pur pose, and that the owner of the same would refuse the application, would spurn all just and adequate com pensation, and would not consent that his property should be takeni (as under the operation of this pro vision he would have the power to do) until paytment wasfirst made. I ask gentlemen what would they do, what would be right and proper? I can say what I would do under such circumstances. I would pro vide that the owner should be amply secured in the manner I proposed and then I would convert the pro perty to the public use. Can any evil or injustice by possibility result from such a course? Private inter ests must be in obedience to the public welfare-and I would remove all inducements from selfish and ob stinate persons, to persist in their attempts to thwart the public good. Is this not justice?-is it not demanded for the pro tection of the rights of the people? I must unhesi tatingly claim that it is. In the determination of this matter, let the same rule be applied as in other affairs. Reason will most readily point out the best and easiest modes. If the amount can be ascertained and agreed u pon between the parties amicably, let it be instantly paid. If it cannot, let the security be most ample, that it shall be paid as soon as ascertained. But do not put it in the power of a single individual to bring the progress of an important work to a stand still, for one, two, or three years, merely to extort an exorbitant sum for his land or other property, from the necessities of the public, or to gratify his own malice or obstinacy. Our attention has been directed to the great injury to, and total disregard of private rights, by companies, in the conversion of private property for public use, by the location and building of our railroads, &c. All this I admit, and would go far to prevent its recurrence again. But how happened such injury?was it not from the one-sided and fraudulent manner of assessing the damages-by computing the supposed benefits of such improvements to the owner of the property, and to that amount, offsetting the damages he may have sustained? Herein was the great fraud and injustice perpetrated, under the name and plausible guise of public interests,upon private righ t s This we have already prevented, by declaring that such supposed benefits shall not be taken into consideration in assessing damages. This I look upon as a most wholesome provision, and one which will most effectually guard and protect the people from such inroads and aggressions hereafter. Permit me to remark while I am up, that some gentlemren appear to maniaifest a holy horror to public improveinent, provided the same is to be accomplished. by ~h~e association of capital. Our attention has been particularly directed by such gentlemen to railroads and such like i mprovements. I do not join in this crusade against railroads, nor would the people of Ohio unite with gentlemen in this warfare. Sir; it is the [arming interest that feel the strongest upon the subject of railroad enterprises. It is that interest that is the most benefitled by them. Gentlemen speak of these things, as if the capitalist is only benefitted.E They are mistaken. It is the farmer who is shut out from market, and who is t hus un able to empite With his more fortunate neighbor, and who needs -/n:outilet - for that surplus' which would otherwise remain valle l ess upon his hands. -; vThese, Mr. President, are my sentiments, a nd I have expressed the m th us fre ely, at the eminent hazard of offelding r, the gen tleman from Knox, and of incur ring political excommunication at his hands, for their u t ter ance. That gentleman has a very great disposi tioeas manifest ed he re, to square the conduet and opinions of o thers, by the sarie rules h e has appli ed to Ithe regulation and formation of his own. I hope he will pardon me for dehyittng his authori ty and refusing to submit to his kind offices in this way. Mr. MITCHELL would say, in additi on to wha t it was said he did say to the gentleman f rom Guer nsey, (Mr. LAWRF.NCr,) that he would find himself votintg with the softs- the rht the result will show where he belongs. Sir, when the battle,s- of federalism are to be fought, federalism itself is silent. It finds its co horets on this side the chamber. I said tha t when I saw a man opposed to combinations of wealth, I knew him to be a democrat; but, on the other ha nd if I saw him in favor of such co mbinations, I looked upon it as a pretty bad indication of democracy. Mr. LAWRENCE. Well, I must say, I never heard a word of that revelation before. I disregard all the gentleman's anathemas. Mr. RANNEY said he was willing to put the Stait.e and corporations upon the same lround-that neither should take the property of inciividuals, until they put its value in its place. He;thought that, the true rule for the protection of private property. Mr. LAWRENCE would ask the gentleman from Trumbull one question: whetherhe would have a rail road or public work of any kind to stop, aswhen al most completed, until, during a litigation of two or three yeaI s, in the judiciary, the amount of daUage can be ascertained. Would this he public justice? Mr. RANNEY. In answering the question, I will say, that the first thing such a company should do, is to secure the right of way; and it will turn out in practice, in ninety-nine out of an hundred cases, that neither the party nor the company will be very un reasonable. But in case they disagree, what is the remedy? That the amount shall be assessed by a jury. What for? To get rid of the old system of commissioners, and to put the interests of the parties into impartial hands. Make the proceeding as summary as you please. Mr. LA&WRENCE. What does the gentleman understand by the word jury? Mr. RANNEY. Just what is meant in the constitutio-n. Send them upon the ground. Let them see the damages for themselves; and settle it as soon as you please; but not until it is settled and paid, should t e State or the individual be allowed to corporation take possession. Mr. LARSH said he thought the Convention had got befogged. The Committee on Corporations, in tile fifth section of the report, had made provision regar ding the right of w ay to be granted to bodies corporate. Nowv ff that covers the same ground, he saw no use for this. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. KENNo., Mr. HAMILTON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered) and resulted, yeas 50, nays:45~ as follows:; ye^s-Messrs. Archboldl, Barbee, Barrier of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blipl ensderier,- Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of /locking, Case of Licking, I(hambers, Coilings, Cooki, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart. Ewing, Flor. ence, Gitlett, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamnilton //arran. Hitch~ cock of Cuyahoga, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Keninoa-. 2138 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 3. Mr. S. said, he thought it very evident nowthat the majority would not be able to arrive at anything better than the printed section. He was himself at first anxious ffor the amendment of the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. SWAN;) but it had been amended so, that he supposed but few members wouldbe willing now to vote for it. The printed section, as it stood, was a kind of compromise, agreed upon once, and he thought it might probably be agreed uponagain. The amendment of the gentleman from Belmont (Mr. KENNON,) was a proposition to adopt the credit system into the Constitution, which, above all things he would be most careful to avoid. It proposed a' credit till the finding of a jury. And then, hesup -, posed, the matter of the damages which might be thus assessed, or secured, to be paid, might be taken. by appeal, to the Court of Common Pleas, then to the Supreme Court, and after that, to the Court in Bank. OWith a powerful corporation on one side, and a humble individual on the other, it was plain that, in, this way the owner might be kept out of his rights for years together, until his patience would be all exhausted. To give the corporation possession, and conmpel the individual to commence an action for his rights, was to induce a very unequal contest. The amendment offered by the gentleman from. Guernsey, (Mr. LAWRENCE,) compelling the corporat on to deposit money to the amount of the damages would have been better; but that we rejected. He could not think that any membl)er of this Convention would be willing to put himself into the place of an individual contesting his rights with a powerful corporation. He would have been willing to take the amendment of the gentleman from Franklin, because it made a prudent discrimination between ordinary cases, and ca. ses of public emergency. But we could get along very well without any provision for emergencies. In time of war, (and he hoped no such time would ever come') nothing could be wanted by the public which would not be freely accorded by every good citizen. The question being uponi the motion to reconsider the vote by which sec. 39 was stricken out, Mr. SMITH, of Wyatidot, demanded the yeas and nays and the same being ordered, resulted- yeas 58, nays 38-as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Cliamliers, Clianey, C'ark. Cook, Dorsey, lEwijg, Farr, Fories. Grav, Green:.e o, Defiance, G~'egg, Groesbe,ck Hard, Henderson, Holmtes, Halt H,,otlani, Huirmphrevile, Hunt, Hunilter, Johnson, Jones, Kilg Lavwrence, Leech. Leadbetter Lidev, Iouldon, Mitchell, Mef orkHick Norlis, O ton, Patterson, QtiIley, Raniiey, Reemielin, Ridd',e, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Au,,laize, Sellers, Smliith) of W~yadldot, stelbMins, StrMeMCle, Swan, Swift I aylor, Thonplsorn of Sheller, Thorrm,pson of Stark, Towiishenrd, Vance of Butler-, Warren. Way, Wilson and President-58. NAYSMess-s. Barbee, Bartet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of ('arroll, Case of H)ckilit, Case of Licking, Col iiigs, Curry, Cutler, EwVart. Florence. Gillett, Green of Ross, Hamniltoni, Harlani, Hitchroi k of Cu' ahoia, Horton Kennorl, Larsht, Manion, Mason, Morehead, McClotid, Nash, Otiis, Peck, Scott of Harrsoi Smilith of Highlands Smnith of Warren. S,anibery, Stalitoll, stilwe'l, Wil!ianms, Woodbury and Wor-thington —8. So the motion to reconsider was agreed lo. And then the question recurred upon striking our Section 39. Mr. SWAN asked and obtained leave to withdraw hlls proposition. Mr. WORTHINGTON moved to further amend the report by striking out Section 39 and inserting ia lieu of the ame, the following:- "Private property shall ever be held inviolate, but may be taken for public use, provided that the value thereo f in money be paid t o the ow ner.' The question being on the adoption of the amndmenit,., Larsh. Lawrence. Loudon, M,lanon, Mason, Morehead, M orris, MlcCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stalltoli, Williams, Wilson.. Woodbury and Worthington-50. NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Fo,rbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, King, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley., Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Struble, Sw an, Swvift, Taylor, TIhompson of Shelby,'IThompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way and Preside,,nt-45. The quest i on th en b eing on the amendment of Mr. SWAN, as amended, Mr. HOLT moved to amend the same, by adding at its close, the following: "1 And in all cases where real estate of individuals-has been, or may be, appropriated directly by the state, for public uses, and not held Under any grant or contract, with the owners, only such use thereof, shall be had by the state, as may be required foi public convenience, the fee simple remaining in the individual owners. On motion of Mr. BATES, the Convention took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. THREE O CLOCK, P. M. PRIVATE PROPERTY FOR PUBLIC USE. The PRESIDENT announced the question to be upon the adoption of Mr. HOLT'S amendment, heretofore recited. The same was agreed to. Mr. HOLT said, he desired to call the attention of gentlemen, to the principle involved in his amendment, and to illustrate its application by reference to facts. His present proposition was somewhat different from that submitted on yesterday, in this: He had carefully excluded those cases,where the fee simple of the property had passed from the original owner to the corporators. Mr. LAWRENCE moved further to amend the amendment, by inserting after the words "secured to be made" the following-"by depositing a sufficient n amount of money with a clerk of the court, of the county in which the said property is situated, to pay the damages when judicially ascertained; said amount to be determined by some judge of a court of record, of said county." Upon which motion he demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted, yeas 45, nays 48, as follows: YEAS-Messrs. ArchHHolduBi r, Boairo, ae, Cook, Ewig, Fair, G'erg, G oeste(ek, tinl!ies, Holt, Hootmyian, HIum.phreville, Hdnt, Johnson, Jones, Keiiiioii, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Li(dey, Mauioti, Mit,-hell, Mc-Co)irmnick, Norri.s, Orton, Patterson, QiIley, Ran Ri, Reeiielin, Riddle, ltoll, Sawye r, Sellers, Snoith of Wyandot, Stanton S$ruble, Swan, Swift, Tlhom-pson of Shelby, Warren, Way,. Wilson, Woodbury and President —45. NAYS —M essrs. Barbee, Bauret of Monitg,,omery, Bates, Blick. ensdertfer, Brown of Atheus, B own of Car,oll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Li,-kini, C.atmt, e,-s, Co'lins, Curry, Cuitler, Dorsey, Ewa,t, F'orentce Forbtes, G li!ett, G ay, Greene of De fiance, G-eean of Ros, Hanrilton. Hard, Harlai, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoa, Hi)rton, HinLt, Hiuter, King, Lash,w Litudon, Mason, Morebeatl, Morris, M,lCloid, Nash, Otis, fS-olt ofHarrisoni, Scott of Autlaize, Siiith of Hi-fhland(,Sinitl-h of Warren, Staniery, Stebbins, Stilwe.'l, Taylor, Wiliianms and Worthington3-48. So Mr. LAWRENCE'S amendment was rejected. Mr. ARCHBOLD moved further to amend the amendment, by inserting after the words "public use" the following, "or stone or timber shall be taken for the construction or repair of county roads." Which was agreed to. The question then being upon the adoption of the amendment as amended, Mr. SAWYER moved to reco nsider the vote taken, by which section 39 was stricken out. 299, OHIO 0CONVENTION - DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 3. "Provided however, that any county now or hbdrealtr containing a population of one hundred and fifty thousand[ or more inhabitants, imiay nevertheless be subdivided whe-'i: ever, subsequent to a law passed for that purpose,a majority of the qualified electors thereof shall, at -a general electiotn, approve,of such subdivision."' CU'RATIVE LAWS. Mr. STANTON move d to further amend the Re port, by striking out of the thirty-fifth section, th word "retro-active," and inserting in lie u thereof the words "ex post facto." The motion ohaviag be en entertained by t he Chair Mr. STANH'TON said: I have not been e xceedin galy. troublesoene to the Convention heretofore, nor do I propos e to be hereaftere. But, if I can g. t t he attention of the -body for not more than fifteen minutes upon t-his question, I will promise not to make another speech for two weeks. Mr. President-It sems to me th at many gentl emoen have been voting to retain the word "retro-active" as it now stands in the section, without being fully aware of its meaning. To mmbers of tihe Bdtr, i t se ems toa me. there can be no difficult y at all ab out understand ing the consequences of the changse of e which my arsend cmeInt proposes. But I will invite the special attention etle n w o ae n rsof ge leen who are ot members of the Bar, and those who sometimes assert here their aversion to Latin phrases in the law, to a few remarks. The terms ex post fafto are the words u sed in th e Constitution of the United States, and in'the Consti tutions of twenty-seven out of the thirty States of this Confederacy. It is a phrase which has'beenfi-equent ]y discussed in the Court s of all the States in the Union, as w ell as in t he Feder al Court; and its meant ing everywhere has been most definitely ascertained.' It means simply, that you shall pass no law making any transaction a crime, and putnish it as such, which was not a crime at the time the transaction took place. The Substitution of the word retro-active, proceeds upon the assumption, that, without this word,, you confer upon the General Assembly the oower to pass all retroactive laws. That you authorize them to take the property of A. and give it to B. That you authorize the Legislature to impair vested rights, and to disregard the sanctity of property and the rights of contracts. But it is not so. These things are at variance with fundamental principles and the inistituitions of the cotunltry. I will read for the information of gentlemen, Kent's Commen taries, Vol. 1, p. 455: "A retrospective statute, affecting and changing vested rights, is very generally considered in this country, as found ed on unconstitutional principles, and consequently, inoperative and void. But this doctrine is not understood to apply to remedial statutes which may be of a retrospective. nature, provided they do not impair contracts, or disturb absolute vested rights, aind only go to confirm rights already exist* ing, and in furtherance of the remedy, by curing defects, and adding to the means or enforcing existing obligations. Such statutes have been held valid, when already just and reasonable, and conclusive to the general welfare, even though ihey might operate in a degree uponi existing rights, as a statute to confirm former nCarriages, defectively celebrated,or a sele of lands defectively maae or acknowledged." It is this class of statutes which I desire, by this amendment, to preserve. It is that power which may be used for the protection of private riglhts —for the purpose of curing those evils which sometimnes arise *in society; and which, if not cured, would work immenlse mischief and wrong. -- < I (do not propose to go into any discussion of the :subject at large; but I wish merely to present a fe leading views to the candid consideration of the; onvention. The best mode of arguing a question of this kind;perhaps, is, to first alludce to some of the instances-in whiche it is claimed that sulch legislation ought to be Mr. W. read the corresponding provision in the old Con stitution, and said: The chief objection he had h e a r d to this section'in the old Constitution, wa s, that the word "compenrsation" had been construed by the Courts and the Legislature so as to justify, in the as sessment of damages, the practice of weighing the advantages of thevproposed work to the owner of the property taken. That great abuses land been prac ticed under this construction, no man knew b ett er than himself; for he himself had been a sufferer in that way. But by the terms of the substitute he had offered-"the value in money"-this objection to the old provision would be obviated. He had been care ful to provide that the full value of tile property taken should be paid in money-not in "moonshine." It was sufficien 15 apparent, that the Convention could not agree aeiaongst themselves upon any lengthy de tails as to how this course of injustice could be best provided against. The full value paid in money, he thought, should obviate every reasonable objection; and if gentlemen undertook to amend this proposition, they would be likely only to render the proposition obscure, which by itself was clear, and w,ell understood. Mr. ARCHBOLD now read, for information, an amendment which he desired to introduce, (when in order,) to come in at the close of the amendment of the gentleman from Ross, [Mr. WORTHINGTON,] as follows: ,But nothing in this section shall be so construed as to extend to cases in which the rig,ht of way is to be acquired by corporations." Mr. REEMELIN demanded a division of the ques tion upon then motion of Mr. WORTFINGTO.N. The question then being on striking oat Section 39; Mr. HUNT demandod the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted-yeas 40, nays 56, as follows: N,Ys~ —lessrs. Ar,h-iold. Barnet of Monrtgomery,. Bates. Bet-' nettll. t iskcnsderfer, Brown of Athena, Brownt of Carroll, Case of Hockinig, Chanbers, Cihaiey, Cotling,s, Curry, Cutlet. E pwart, Floret,-e, Gil'ett, Gieeni of t0Ross, Haimilton, Hlarlan, Hitchcock of Ciiyaio;,a, lio-toi, Keicion, La-sh, Loudon, Minon, Masoti, Morehiead, M,C oui, Nash, Otis, Peck Scott of Hari-i son, Smrith of!tii,h'aid, Sinth of Warren, StaI)lery, S tanton, Stiin'el, Wilt ias, Woodliu y and Worthigton —40. NAY —Messrs. Barl,ee, Blair, Cahill. Case of Licking, C'ark, Cook, D.itsey, Ewing, Far, Fo,rbes, Gray, G'eetie of Defiaice, Greg,os, Goeseck, hard. Heiidersoi, Holiies, Holt, Hoo tean, Huitiphteville, Hunt, Htitei, Johbison, Joie.s, Kinga, Lawrence, Leech, Lead'e,:ter, Lidey Mitchelil, Cicri k, Nor ris, Olton, Patterson, Oui;ley Ran,ey, Reetieiin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer Scotl of A,ilaize Se les, Smiith of Ivyaidot. StelihiiiLs, striihte, Swan, Swif,, Taylor, Tlioinpson of Slielhv,Th nil)son of Sa, k, Towi,shenid, Vance of Bitler, Wa-ren, Way,Wi l son had President —56. So the motion to strike out was disagreed to. Mr. BENNETT proposed further to amend the Report of the Committee on the Legislative Department, by itlserting in the first line of the seventh section, after the word "officers," the following words: "except as otherwise provided in this Constitution." Mr. B. desired mnerely to state his object in introducing this amendment. It was to avoid the incolnsistency which would exist by the adoption of this Report, in view of a provisiotn made in the Report of the Committee on the Executive Departmenst, which had been agreed upon in Committee of the Whole, and woeuld robabl be agreed upo n in the Convent ion namnely: thdat the Lieutenant Governor should be President of the Senate-thereby constituting himn one of the officers of the Senate, which might create some confusion. It was in order to avoid that conlfusionl, that he had offered the amendment, which had been read. The amendment was adopted.; Mr. REEgMELIN messed to further amend the Report,; by adding to Section 38, the foll-owing, which was disagreed to: 240 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES:-FRIDA, JANUARY 3. excised. Therefore, without attempting to amuse marriages would have been held void, their issues Iheld oaur minds with imaginary cases, I will, in the first illegitimate, and the property have descended to collatplace, very briefly, call the attention of gentlemen to eral relations.. But by the exercise of the powver now actual cases that have arisen in the history of this sought to be withheld from the Legislature, the people country, and which, it seems to me, demonstrate the of Connecticut were saved from this terrible calamnecessity of the exercise of this power on the part of ity. the Legislature. Some of the causes towhich I will There is another class of cases which frequently call your attention were commented upon last sum- arises. A justice of the peace, supl)osiing there can be mer. no great matter about his being sworn in and giving By the act requiring the acknowledgemant of deeds bond on the tenth day, goes up and qualifies on the for the conveyance of lands by married women, it was eleventh day, and proceeds to issue process, render provided that, in such acknowledgement,there should judgment, collect money, &c. But, at last, it turns boe a separate examination of the wife, and that she out that he has not been qualified according the law,for should be made acquainted with the contents, and the these duties, and the courts would hold that every man nature of the conveyance; and that the execution was whohas paid his money under his process,is liable to be voluntary, and not under any undue restraint on the sued again; and every officer who has collected money part of the husband. But, very soon, a vast amount under his proc-ss, is 1 0;o lialli. of land was transmitted without this certificate em- Mr. RANNEY (interposing.) Does the gentleman bOdying the facts required by thie statute, and they say that the courts would hold that way, even if the.. were consequently held void, so far as the rights of magistrate had not given bond at all? the wife were concerned. Mr. STANTON. I should be very much at a loss The purchasers who had paid their money, and re- to know how you would avoid such a conclusion,where, ceived their titles in good faith, were deprived of both, a man has exercised the functions of a justice of the and had no remedy- In 1835, the General Assemibly peace, who was never qualified. I should like to know passed an act, curing these defective acknowledge- upon what pretext it could be held that such a man is ments, and declaring tilhat they should be as binding a justice of the peace de facto? It may be that the and effectual as though the acknowledgements had been gentleman from Trumbull is right, but I should not altogether legally taken. For a time, the courts held think it at all strange if the courts were to differ with this act to be uncolistitutional; but more recently they him. But all events, the Legislature ought to have the have come to the other doctrine, and held that it is power to legalize the acts ot such an officer, in the' constitutional. Without the power to pass that act, event of the court so deciding, for they have certainly more than a million of property would have changed made stranger decisions, than that would be. hands,.in violation of ever principle ol' honesty and And there was another case within my own knowjustice. ledge. I think it was in the year 1847 that the coun I will state another case, which though it did not ex- ty of Auglaize was organized, and at that time two actly bring the threatened evil upon us, came so near of the commissioners of Allen county lived within to it, that it is worth alluding to,and I think the mein- the limits of Auglaize, which, of course, deprived oiy of the gentlemania from Franklin, [Mr. STANBEaY,] them of their office. Sometime afterwards, these two will sustain the statement. A suit was brought for commissioners met with the other commissioner, and the recovery of lands sold in this State, in which the appointed a treasurer for Allen county, to fill a vawill of a Mr. Bailey, who died in Virgilnia, was intro- canticy occasioned by death, who entered upon the duduced as evidence, which was not executed according ties of the office, went to work collecting and giving to the laws of Ohio: and it was claimed that a will receipts for,taxes. Now, a thousand questions might not executed according to the laws of Ohio, could not arise upon'that case, and what a court would hold,no pass the title to real estate in Ohio. The Supreme living man could tell. Whether theywould hold that Court in Bank a, one time, decided, that the will must a payment of taxes to a treasurer so appointed would be executed according to thile laws of Ohio, or that all be a good payment, orwhether the tax-payer could be titles based uplon it, would be void. But, subsequent- compelled to pay them again, I suppose no man can ly, they tooki back the dec.sioni, reviewed it, continued tell. The difficulty was increased by the Associate the case, aal finiall, decided the other way. But, if Judges of Allen county, mneetilug and appointing anthe court had adhered to that decision, that no foreign other board of county commissioners, who appointed will, not executed according to the laws of Ohio, another treasurer.'hus there were two boards of could pass th ttle of real estate in Ohio, you must commissioners and two treasurers atwork at the saime have had another curative law passed, or another mill- time. ion of pi op,rty would have changed hands unljustly. I could submit a vast variety of cases, going to But, perhaps the s',oiigest case, demonstrating the show that no human sagacity could foresee and pronecessity of the exercise of this power of passing cura- vide against them, demonstrating comrpletely that. it tive laws by the General Assembly. arose in the State was nothing short of a primary necessity that there Of Connecticut. By the early marriage laws of Con- Would be left with the Legislature the power to pass necticut, it was provided, that no clergyman, unless he'chrative or remedial statutes. But I forbear, because were a settled minister, should solemnize a marriage. I have promised not to be tedious. During the times of tile early settlement of that State, Mr. MITCHELL demanded thle yeas and nays upon the itinerant Methodist clergymen went there, and pro- this question, and the sanie beirig-rdered and taken, ceeded to sole innize marriages throughout the bounda- the result was-ayeas 42, nays 50, as follows: rios&of their respective charges, ana continued to do so YEAs-Messrs. Bartire, lJar,iet of Montigonery, Bates, Benfor twenty years iiearly the period of an entire gtner- iietr, Blirkensderfer, Brown of Athens, B own of Carroll. Case ation. But, ultimately, the question of the validity of of Hocking, Case of Lickinig, C,,amiihers, Colings, Cook, Cutler, of these marriages c a me d and held Ewing, Fiirefore, Gray, G,een of R(rss, tliarar,, Herdereon, that the marriage void, because not solemnized ac-t o Ciiyahoa, HolmeS flOn flinter Kerinoir, was void, ~~~~~Larch, ManorU, MIason, Mo~rehre, M( Cloud. Otis, Perk;'Scoit cording to-law, that the children were illegitimate; and, of Harrison, Srith of Hlighlard, Smith of Warrens Sitanbery, t h a t the property should go to collateral relations. But Stanton, Stilwell, T'aylor, IThornmipon of Shelly, Vanice of BAt ier, ~vitliams and Worthinigton —40. the Legislature of that State immediately passed an act NAer Messrs. Blair, Cabte, C,Jaree, C/ark, Carry, D'rsey: legalizing these marriages; -which the courts heldto be Parr, Forbes, GilJeti, Greene of De'efiane Griers, Groest?erk Co. stltutirnal. Bat without that curative law, all these l Haorit,,:,'iard. Hoytt, tootirian, liuriplihevilte, Johliodn, King, 241" OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES -SATURDAY, JANUARY 4. n in the new constitution, prohibiting the Legislature , from passing any law legalizing traffic in spiritu-ous n liquors. d Mr. NASH presented a petition from G. M. Young and fifty-two other officers and members of the Grand? Division of the Sons of Temperance of Ohio, on the; 1 same subject. Mr. G iLLETT presented a petition from Williami P. Mendis and thirty-five other citizens of Scioto couln, . ty on the same subject. Mr. NORRIS presented a petition from William Pattison and sixty other citizeiisofClerrmoftcountyon the same subject. Also, a petition from H. McClure and thirty-three other citizens of the same countyoa the same subject. - Said petitions were severally referred to the select committee on the subject of "retailing ardent spirits." Mr. HUMPHREVILLE gave notice that on Mon day next, or some subsequent day of the sesssion, he would nmove to amend the rule, so that when a call for , the previous question is sustained,the main question , shall extend to the immediate question then under con sideration, and no further. On motion of Mr. LAWRENCE, the Conventior again took up the report of the committee on the legis lative department with the pending amendments. The question pending, being on agreeing to the amendment of Mr. KING to the ame)dinent of Mr. VANCE of Butler to wit: by inserting after the word' ' "company" the words" now or hereafter existing." Mr. HARD tnoved to reconsider thie vote taken, by which the convention refused to strike out all after the word "State" in the proposition of Mr. VANCE of Butler. The question then being on the reconsideration: Mr. CASE of Licking, said that the motion to reconsider which was now pending, although unexpected, did not demand from him any change in the order or the substance of the rearks he was about to submit. As he understood i, the whole merits of the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Butler, [Mr. VANcE,] was under consideration, and thus he should treat it, for the purpose of the present argu, ment. He wished, further, to say, that he felt som e reluctance in occupying the attend ion of the Convention. He had, from the beginning, avoided, as far as po,si ble, taking a part in the debates of this body, and did not believe that,from the commencement of the session at Columbus, unti l the present mom ent, he -had occupied more than onehourofitstime. And he would not have done so at present, h ad it not been that although he and th ose who a greed with him in sentiment, had acted fr om the best of motives, and under the full conviction of the correctness of their views as he was bound to believe, the y had been publicly charged withth e abandonment of the ir pri n ciples and held up as deserters from,and traitors to t he Democratic party and its doctrines, and their constituents had been invoked to brand them as apostates and heretics. These charges had not only been made here, but they had gone forth through the State in the newspapers, in many of which the "Twelve" had been grossly misrepresented1 and thus was imposed upon him the necessity of stating precisely what w~fas hls position, and his reasons for assuming and maain" taining it.: Mr. President: I have heard, in this hall, what i rnever expected to have heard in anl assembly like this. I h~ave heard the spirit of party i-nvokedl. I: have heard action of a mere partisan character demanded, by one-member from another.'Sir, let it ie un-derstood, once for all. that i came here to -meet: not Lawrence, Leech.4 Leadheiter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Mc Go,-miik, Nas,h, Norris, Ortoni, Pattermon. Qti iey.'i Ra-lnev Reeiieiii, Ridd e, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers Stiith of Wyaildot, Stebbtins, Strutile, Swan, Swift, Tiiompson of Stark, Towns'iend-, Warren,.Way, Wilson, Woodbuiry and Prosierit —50. So the amendment was rejected. Mr. VANCE of Butler, moved to further amend the report, by adding to section thirty-five the follow ing: "Provided, that all acts of incorporation, and acts granting franchises, maybe altered, amended, re voked or repealed by the General Assembly of this State, upon such terms and conditions pertaining to the inviolability of private property, as is provided in other cases in this Constitution." Mr. SAWYER moved to amend the amendment, by striking out all after the word "State," on which ques tion he demanded the yeas and nays, and the same being ordered resulted-yeas 47, nays 48, as fol lowss: YAs-Messrs. Blair, n, Cahil, rChaney, Clak, Dorsey, Ew ing, Farr, Forbes, Green e of Defiance, Gregg, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, iumphreville, Hunt, Jon es, K ing, Law rence, Leech Leadbetter, Lidey, Loud non, Manon. Mitch ell, McCormicki, Norris, Orton, Paterson, o uigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Raddye, Sayer, cott o f Auglaize, Se llers, Smith of Wyandtot, Stebbins, Strubl e, Swift, Tay lor, Thomp sonlof Stark, -Townshend, Way, Wilson and President-47. NAYS-Mes,srs. Archbold, Barb ee, Barne t of Montgomery. Bates. LennLnett, 1 MMickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Lickeing, Chambers, Col l ings, ( ook. Curry, Cutler. Florence, Gillett, Gray, Gree n of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Ha rd, larlan, Hitch cock o f Cuyahoga, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Kennon, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, M cC loud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Scott of Har rison, Smith of Highland. Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, ~tilwell, Swan, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Warren, Williams, Woodbury and Worthington-48. So the amendment was rejected. Mr. IHUMPHREVILLE moved to amend the amendment by inser ti ng after the word,'f ranchises," the follog ilg: " and the privileges and franchises of any incorporated company." Mr. ROLL demanded the yeas and nays upon this motion, and the same being ordered, resulted seas 59, nays 35, as follows: Y.As-Messrs. Archbold, Blair. Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chaney,, Clark, Cook. Dorsey, Ewiig, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hlootinan, Itumphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King. Lawrence. Leech, eeatdbetter, LideyL Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, tRanhey, Reemelin, Riddle, Boll, Sawyer, Scott ot Anglaize, Sellers. Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Struble, Swan Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, lTownshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson and President- 59. NAYs-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates,, Ben. nett, bliokensUerfer, Brown of Athens, Brown;of Carroll, Chambers, Collings. Curry, Cutler. Florence, Gillett, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Horton, Hunter, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stan. ton, "tilwell, Williams, Woodbury and Worthington-35. So the amendment was agreed to. Mr. KING moved to further amend the amendment, by inserting after the word "company," the following: "now or hereafter existing." 'Pending which, On motion by Mr. ARCHBOLD, the Convention adjourned. SEVENTY-NINTH DAY. SATURDAY, Jan. 4, 1851. 9 0'CLOCK A. X. The Convention met'epurstuant to adjournlen-t. Prayer by Rev. Mr. MITCHELL. Mr. EWART presented a petition from Rebecca A. Marois and one hundred anid forty five other female of Washington county, praying that a clause be inserted I I I c e 8 t b n a c a c u n 24'2 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATESATURDAY, JANUARY 4. 243 such demand, and so far as I am concerned, that all public welfare of that Commonwealth required that will be answered, like the call for spirits from the the existing right of property in slaves, should be re vasty deep. sumed, revoked, or annihilated, and that every slave In fact, so strong was the determnination of the should go free, and that property of man in man people in my county against enlisting feelings of a should no longer be recognized-it undoubtedly party character, in the canvass for members of this has the power so to do, but forever upon the condition body, that when I became a candidate, so well was 1 of compensating the owners therefor. known as a strong partisan, that in order to obviate Suppose the State of Ohio, after having leased her objections which might arise from that fact, I deemed School Lands, should, from considerations of public it necessary to address, on the eve of the election, a policy, see fit to call in those leases, in order to sell and card to my fellow-citizens, in which I made use of grant the lands in fee. May she not do it? Certainly the following language:-"If elected, whatever I do she may, but can any one doubt that shie can only do in that Convention shall be for the people, the whole it, by compensating those who have been divested of people and nothing but the people-a man who cannot their property? Nor is this by any means a new rise above mere party feelings, is unfit to have a seat doctrine; onl thle contrary,it has been the doctrine of in that Convention-a constitution, is the vessel of Ohio, ever since the organization of the State. It was State in which we all must float together." made a 1 art of the Bill of Rights in the present Con Now, Mr. President, allow me to say that I have stitution, that "private property ought and shall ever never changed the opinions I there declared, and I be held inviolate, but always subservient to the public trust I shall never have occasion to do so. To She welfare, provided a compensation in money be made to .eople by whom I was elected, I made a solemn pub- the owner," [See Bill of Rights section 4.] Gentle i pledge, over my own signature, and that pledge I men will observe the phraseology. It is not merely am determined to carry out to the filllest extent. the public use, but when the public welfare shall de Gentlemuen may spring the party rattle as much and as mand, that private property may be taken; a compen often as they please, they shall never shake me. I sation however, to be made therefor in money. It would as soon take partisan motives into considera Iwas then that the doctrine of the right of the Legisla tion, were I a member of a sworn jury, in a jury box, ture to repeal existing franchises was declared; and it as here; and should deem an appeal to mere party has ever since been the doctrine of the democratic feeling, as wrong in the one place as in the other. We party; and if gentlemen want to aid in the triumph of came not here to make a constitution which should democratic principles, let them come up and vote for be a mere record of party dogmas and party edicts, this proposition. We shall then see whether they are but, on the contrary. to make it a record of the wants willing to assist in asserting the principles of denioc of the people. We want no Whig-no Democratic, no racy, and whether that democracy of which they tak Free Soil Constitution, in a party sense, but we want so loudly, shall be made manifest by their votes. a people's constitution, and that will be Denmocratic enough for mre and my constituents. We are daily hearintig lectures upon the security ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~wihm, ethon aoundterght ofo the anycontituns Yet we have arrived at a strange pass in this assemin which must be thrown around the rights of the citi bly. A member can hardly vote upon a question of Zen, when his property is about to be taken for the use adj.ournment without exciting a cry. of" "lards" and of some municipal or other corporation, engaged in a "softs." A There abstract proposition comes up-a work of public improvement. Then the utmost jeal member gives his vote upon it, according to the dice - ousy is to be exercised, that no wrong shall be done to tates of his conscience and his judgment-he is told the individual He has guaranteed to him the right to that hlie has voted with the "softs," and has exposel a trial by jur-; he has his day incourt, can have his himself to the detestation and the scorn of the witnesses, and the assistance of counselevery thing whole Democratic party. I now state that I hold that is necessary fully to secure his interests, is fur in uitter coiitempt all such appeals and all such deo nished to him, ard the ability to preserve every right to nunciations-I cousider them debasing, and degrading |which he is in law or in ijustice entitled, is as Iully as to the sworn members of this body. possible placed within his reach by the constitution.we t let us come to the question ow before the c- are here forming-all which meets my hearty concur But let us come to the question now before the coix- i, vention. The right of the- General Assembly to re- rece and has had my votes peal any law wahich it has enacted,to revoke any fral- But when the property of a corporation is to be taclalse which it has conferred and to annul any act of ken, for the use of the state, the thing becomes changincorporation which it has established, whenever the ed at once; and there is none of that careful circumpublic good shall demand it, is one in which I concur spection as to the rights of the injured party, which as fully as any gentleman upon this floor. The pub- you would exercise in the other case. You are not ii ~~~~~~~~~~~~~illing, in the eas;e whiere mere individual rights are lic good is, and ever should be paramount to individual willing i te case where mere individual rights are right. Whether the propertyof the citizen be in lands concerned, to trust to the wisdom and ipartiality of rt, 11 ~~~~~~the Legislature. fHere you mut bind the le~gislative in personal property, in choses in action, in rights or the Legislature Here you must bind the gisla in franchises, when the public good demands, it must power by a rigid and inflexible rule, to see that justic be surrendered; but always upon this condition, that be doie. But il cases where the'state, yieldiig to the demands of the public welfare, resumes, confiscates or in all cases, afull and adequate compensation in mon- demanls of the public welfare, resumesn, confiscates - o ey be made to the party, who has been injured by the annihilates the property of a corporation, you can redivestment of his property or rights. The right of pose the most implicit confidence in her impartiality grant, carries with it an implicit right to re and justice-ten the Legislature can do no wrong sume; but the faith which results from the grant Theieshe needs no restraint. Now sir; is this accordvests in the grantee the right to demand and receive log to the Democratic doctrine? That doctrine, is the a compensatioii for his inijuries. The power to grant doctrine of equality. It teaches, that the first princimay be exercised without fear and without danger pie of government is to secure equal and exact justice when coupled with the power to annul at the demand to all-to the state and to the citizen; to individuals of the public necessity. It is in this way that the and to corporations; to the poor as well as the rich. public and individual good combine and unite. This It holds an equal security over every kind of property, paramount right of resumption rests in every gov- whether real ol personal; whether existing in goods enment, and is essential to its welfare. If the State and chattels, lands, or in incorporeal hereditaments, in of Kentucky, for instance, should determine that the, rights, or in franchises. 17 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 4. H to the last cent, before a thing could be done, or a sin gle act of ownership exercised by the Rail Road Conm pany. But when the State of Ohio herself,yielding to the demands of the public good, repeals the charter revokes the franchises-these securities which in oth er cases, it throws around the property of its citizens are all disregarded, and no hearing is had, no money is paid. And this is call ed Democracy! Now, it will not do for gentletnen to tell us that they -are in favor of giving compensat i on in s uch cases, when the y vote against every proposition by wh ich it is intended, such compensation shall be secured.. They tell us there is no danger in such cases; that we may rely with perfect confidence upon the faith of the Leg islature. Ah! but you yourselves, have no faith in the Legislature, when the case is between an individ ual and a corporation, or between an individual and the State. Then your jealousy is aroused, and you are ready —not only to declare the principle-but to lay down an inflexible rule of legislative action in this constitution. Mr. REE,MELIN inquired if the vote which he gave' yesterday, did not prove that tio was in favor of secur inig to corporations, all the rights which belonged to them? Mr. CASE. You voted against a provision for com penisation, to be secured by a constitutional provision, which should place corporations upon the same footing as individuals. You voted against this provision; and the enduring records of this Convention, will show it to the world; ana because myself and a few others here, insisted upon that just provision, we have been de nounced as having apostatized from the Dermocratic faith, and as having betrayed our constituents. Thank God, I know niothing of that Democracv, which would arm the State of Ohio with such power, that at the mere will and caprice of a dominant majority in the Legislature, she, in the plenitudte of her strength, with out notice-without jury-without evidence-without counlcil —without compensationt-could de liberately, in tine of peace, and without any extraordinary erner. gency, seize, condemn, confiscate, annihilate and destroy the private property of one of its citiz3nis. Citizens, too,- who pay taxes, to support the Government, and are liable, and bound il case of need, to peril their lives in defence of its soil. No, Sir! Such is not Democracy; ,t it be, it is the Democracy of the bandit-of the brig and-of the guerilla! It is not morals, unless it be the morals of a highwayman! It is not religion, un less it be the religion of an Arab! It is not State pol icy, unless it be that of Algiers. Mr. REEMELIN thought he ought to call the gen tlernan to, order. He looked upon it as out of order, to employ such epithets as Arabs and Algerines, in connection with members of this Convention. Mr. CASE. I have employed no such expressions, "as personal epithets. It is in reference to principles and cases that I have put, and not to men, that they were used. But gentlemen sa'y, all around me, they are with us. Then why not vote with us, and settle the question at once. Ah, they are willing to put their trust in the State to do that justice which they cannot find it in their hearts to provide for,i in the Constitution. I re member an inscription over the door of a court-house, in a county adjoining my ownl. It is, "SLet Justice be done if the Heavens fall." And it will be, in mny opinion, about the time when the heavens fall, that these gentlemen will be willing to do justice in these cases. It;8 easy to imagine a variety of cases where the resumption byr the State of grants, contracts &c., made by the public authority, might operate to- the' manifeat injuryof individuals. Take the water leas Hes N whreifc e b a i then is where we differ. We all agree in the doctrine that t he Legislature ma y resume a grant to an i ndividual orsa bat y corporate, whenever the p ublic welfare denrands; bai t we disagre e a s to whethe r the state shall be bound to reader a fuall compensation i c damages, for that of which she deems it necessary to d ivest the individual in case of acorporation or its franchises. Now I will put a specific case, by way of illustration-one t hat has in part fallen under my own observation, and see, whether there is any just reason for this differencea of opinion. We will take tihe case of the bridg e over the kd,iaumee river, a t Maumee city. I will speak of thi s w ork, bec ause I ha d occa sion recently t o pass it, and to cpay what might be deemed a pretty heavy toll-some t hirty seven cents, I believe, for a ho rs e and bugg y. T he brid g e is a very valuable one, crossing a broad and difficult stream, at the p lace of a grea t and important thoroughfare; and it is pro babl y th e best structure of tile kind in Ohio. This bridgewas built by a company incorporated in 1839, with a charter of thi rty years duration; and must have cost not much less than fifty thousand dollars. It belongs, at present as I am informe d to two men, who have invest ed their lab or an d capital in itsonstruction, aend who have th us, as I believe, conferred an inCportant benefit upon the public. Under their act of in,orpouration they wer e virtually told by t he Legislature in order to accommodate the public, to expend their money, to t ake the risk of losses by fire or floods, and totake in return to lls at certain rates. They do so. Perh aps t he fir s t freshet takes off their bridge. I do not kn ow whether it h a s been done Mr. HUNT. The bridge ha s been twice swept awa y by freshets. Mr. CASE. Th at makes th e ase a still stronger o ne. In order to enjoy the benefits of their charter, th ey are o bliged to re-build, and the State makes no allowance therefor-the Compan y take th e chance of mak ing or per haps, losing, much. Well, now, this conpa ny has had the us e of this bridge under its chart er for several, say ten years. It may have reimbursed itself for all its expenditures. They have they have the prop erty upon which it is built-the piers, the fixtures, the structure, the toll house- but they ha ve a higher and more valuable property than all these-they have the franchise to take tolls for twent years to come, to repay them for their outlay their capital, their enterpri se, their insu rance,their hazards. And now would i t be right fo r the Legislature, under the influence of political or selfish feelings, or acted upon by some neighborhood clamor to take in hand this c ompany, and with ou t notice with ou t giving t a day in Court, wi thout counsel: witnesses, or hearing,to strike down,at one blow, this valuabl e franchise, worth perhaps fifty thousand dol lars, without awarding to its proprietors one single cent of compensatn? Is this the doctrine for which gentlemen contend? Is this the Democratic doctrine? Mr. REEMELIN said such was not the doctrine for which he ha(d contended. Mr. CASE. If you then are in favor of giving com pensation in such cases, why do you not vote with us, and exhibit by your votessthe sincerity of your pro fessions? Now, if the General Assembly should grant a char ter to a Rail Road Company, and that Company should find it necessary, under the provisions of its charter to. seize for its use, this Maumee bridge, what would the course then be*. Why} the bridge compa ny woulld have its rights protected, by every means which the caution of thin body and the jealousy of the Legislature could invent. It would have ample noic, ady'n Cor, a jry trial, witnesses, advo. cates, and last of al1 payment of damnage in advance, I t I t t t I i a t I i c 244 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 4. es upon our canals, for instance. They are granted tion of the people in other states —which have been tried by usually for a long term. They are valuable, anld upon experience, and found salutary. Witn the lights of experiene theirafaithrfrequently, coshyyworksaareerected. That efore them, the convenition in two weeks time, can frame their faith frequently, costly wsorks areerected. Thlat for Ohio, a constitution whlich will be the model one of the the State may resume these grants for a good cause, model Republic, and conduce to the interest at d happiness' of that she may repeal the laws under which they are the people. granrtedl, there can be no doubt, but would not justice Again on p[)age 315: demand that an adequate compensation be made to "If a majority of the freemeaLvotiog for Represeita the injured party, and that too in a court of jus- tives, decide, in accordaice with tihe recoiirmenddationl tice? of the Legisliture, to call a Convention, that body wilt Gentlemen may ask; what compensation would meet nextsummer, and in session of two weeks car,, ou give, on the repeal of a bank charter? I say: aid we doubt lot, will give tu the people of Ohio, tth Not rnuch.if I were to have the power to fix it; but best Constitution of anlly State ill the Ulliolr, for the nevertheless, upon the principle of giving even the members will have before them tie Coilstrtutioijs of the Devil his due, whatever the real damage may be, it different States, and without introduci)ng a single fea should be paid, but this doctrine of repeal falls heav- ture which has not been tried and found to work well, iest, not on banks and bankers, for if you repeal their they can give us such a Constitutioi), as we r,-marked charters, their real and personal property can without last week, as will be the model Constitution of the inad much damage be appropriated to other purposes-the el Republic of the age. money they have, can be used in other channels of bu Again on page 249: siness-not so, with a bridge or turnpike company: "Taking the new Constitutions of the different take away the charter-take away the rightto toll, Stales, it will be an easy matter to formt one that will and whlat is left? The structure, it is true, but what give Ohio a Constitution, worthy of her name, her peo- - is that worth? nothing —nothing, without the right to pie and her position aS the acknowled(ge( head of ihe use it as provided for in their charter —so to say that Northwestern States, for it is a fact, which we would, when you repeal the charter, you take nothing impress upon our readers, that every Reform recosr from them-that you still leave them their property, melided has been tried by otlherStates, anid found to be is the most bitter irony. all its advocates irromrnised it would be." Now, it is said here that the democratic party of the Yet not aConstitutioni, of aiy State old or new, ean State, during the canvass for the election of members be found containing ttie doctrine here pressed with so of this Convention, did insist upon the adoption of a much zeal and pertinacity. I chaltlenge their p)rodLe provision for the unconditional repeal of all acts of lion. No Stiate has ever proposed it —much less Iirid incorporation, as well those existing as those hereaf- it. Yet (lol. Medary reads us a lecture be'cause we will ter to be created. Sir, I deny it. I deny that any rot go bheyoud what he admitted to be tile bounds of re demiocratic paper in the State took ground to that ex- orm. Thie Cincinnati Enquirer" has also read Lis tent. It is true that such ground was taken, so far poorsin igmrt a lessmu uooi t le,i,tne sus,e as charters granted by future Legislatures, and so far when here or page 119 O' M(eaoy's " INet w Coi,stt we all go cheerfully —none will go further than my tutioi" we find the followingextraet from that l)aper: self. Yet we are told that becausewe have not voted "We also desire to have enbolied in the i'ew consti to put in this Constitutionwhatwe believe unjust anid tution a se,lf.adjustiiLg aprportiolsilient, wihieci wtil giveo unconstitutional-what we believe the people have the Legislature as little to do with the subject as iaossi never called for-for there can be no evidence to that ble. effect produced, it is said we have violated our duty Another legislative restriction that we, consider of itrito the people. Sir, I deny it. I deny that during portatice, isth,t no laiw shall bepassed which, if it shIll the canvass such a proposition was ever dreamed, or prove injurious to the public interests, cainnot Ie rethought of. To convince gentlemen that such was aed" wpealed." not the case, I will read from what gentlemen will And yet because we are willing to go as far as that deetn good democratic authority-from Medary's work paper then proposed to go, we areiderorinced iii that ,entitled, "The New Conistitution"-a sort of omniurn etitled, odThe New Coondstitution"-a sort of omeim journal as traitors to tIre Democratic party. Ohi! colgatherumr of democratic sayings and writings upon sisteocy, thou art a jewel 8. ~~~~~~sistency, thoui art a jewel! the subject, from the various democratic papers of the And ow I ask gentlemen to point me toelie place State, and other sources. It was published in the wre the uoditio repeal of acs of iorporsummer and fall of 1849, when the question was be- tion e tide f a rifore the people, whether they would have a new con- sion previtou iy passed has been arlv-;Cat e,, as a provi stitutiori, and if so, in what respect it should be to go S trtlite be w Conrstituer? in wo at part uf io i the State has it b,eiin done? Where, in other States, amended. Mr. Medary, in the first number, s tates ts has the principle been adopted? In what otler CoIstobject in thesewords, ot page 2ti i it to be found? Yet we were told that we "It is intended to confine this paper, as far as possible, ere to try no new experiens an to adopt stllig t %,~~~~~~~~~~~ere. to try no new experiiienfs, and to adopt notteng strictly to discussions growing out of the question of a co wenition for a new constitution- st. to the necessity of a l0ut what had been triec in other States, aild fouirid to Corrventioan-2nd. to the investigations of the various re work well. Such is the doctri'ne that was ablvocisted fCrts' that saoeld be aeIoptSd." last fall a vear-tle doctrine before the election-the. So much for the object of this very valuable work; I doctrine at tihe time when the party was wilting t1 give arid I now as_sert, thai throughout the 498 pages of the lie to the cry -of taditalismis that was raised against that work there is riot a sernterce or a word 1upon the it by tihe Wlig press of the State,; but to sooniir does suboctc which is here proposed-plenty of doctrine, I it happen that the Democrats hav" the majority her", agree, as to aprospective provisions to go into the cl- than a new song is sna'g. stitution, yet not a word as to a retros'pectii'e privm- But we were told, the other day, that for Democrats, sion. So far from it it, is the fact. that Mr. Medary. in we had fallen into strange cempaily-we lad gotteu iiimore than one place, precludes and excludes all such to strange society. Let us see. If gelemerr wi'l sretre-aCtiee doctrines of repeal. leal him, on pager examine into their own position, they iiay find t~h.t it 338:;' is they who have falleii irto straoae companry. What "BEaR 5 MIND — That eves- change advocated by the State-what Democracy of any Stste, wichs has had friends of constitutiorial relorm, has been tried in othler i; its hands the forin-ition crf a new Co,stitution, has states, and fournd to worn well.. No new experiments are asserted tile right of the uricoirditional rev peal of acts proposed, but only such measures as have received the sane- Of corporation to operate retrospectively? Not one 24r) OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SA.URDAY, JANuARY 4. law of England, ever since the days of SIagn. Charla. I The Supreme Court of Ohio, also, iii the 11th Ohio reports in a case fromi this county, held that a law provrid ing for taking private property for public use, in which there is no provision for compensation to the owner, is void-absolutely void. Mr. MITCHELL. Will the gentleman from Lick ing, [Mr. CASE.J tell the convention and the people of Ohio, what, and how much compensation was made by Kitig Charles It. for the charters and franchises seized and confiscated by him. Mr. CASE. The reign of the Stuart race was that of a race of tyrants-a reign of tyranny and blood-of lawl ess and irresponsible power-of departure from every principle calculated to secure the rights of ihe citizens. If franchises were seized,tliey were doubtless seized without right, without law, without compensation. Does the gentleman desire to seek in the reign of the Stuart family precedents for the coufirmatiou of his Democratic principles? Mr. MITC HELL. But will the gentleman tell us of one particular franchise that was taken and paid for? Wil gentlenen tell I us that i t h as bee n d ecla re d b y the )amocratcy of OhIio? They ca nnot! Is there an d such proposition in th e Democratic Constitution o New'York? No! In Kentucky? No! In Indiana' Nso! In MichigLan? No! in Iowa? No! In Wis coursin? No! Ill California? No! Ithasbeen heare ofi nowhere but here ill this Clatrber. Yet we hav e fallen ito strange company! I suppose t hat the gen tleiain from Kthox (MIr. MITCHELL) meants tha t we hav e fallen into the company of the Whigs. If that ig what he means, I mu st h e allowed t o say, that he also fell into strange company, the o ote day, wh en he v oted Faith thie Whigs, that the people were not to be trusted ti the cioice of repr esen tativ es, unless we provided in the Constitution that the candidate sh ould be 25 or 30 years old. Mr. MITCHELL. So did you, sir, on the same occasion. Mr. CASE. I t hink not. How s o?. Mr. t V, ITCHELL. Were t here no t f our teen or fifteen Whigs, voted with vou, u pon th at quest ion? ir. CASE. Uider the ci r cumstances, whe ther strtiage or not, it was very good company. They are progressive Whigs. I lamve heard it asserted upon this floor, and I have not hieard it denied, that a franchis ie is property, and kuej e ct to all the rules by which property is governed — that It may be sold, bought, inherited, taken in executioIl or uider a decretal order; that it may be d evised; talt it Stes a v alue which may be ascertained by appraisenieat; and it follows, as a matter of necessity, that like other property, it may be taken for the public use, tile proprietor being entitled to a compensation at the iladios of the party taking the same. Mr. KING. Ini wliat mall ler? Mir. CASED I will state a case that occurred, and in that way answer the gentleman. Under an act of incorporation, passed by the Legislature of Vermont, a company was in)corporated, which constructed a tollbridge across West river, in that State. After some years, tile people of the vi(ciniity petitioned the Legislature, that thl br-idge be taleni from the comp -ly, be ,appropriated to the public us,e, and be made free. The L tLislattu.re took the case. into consideration —passed an act rep~ealingr th. franciise, and idedicated it and the bri(dge to thie public lise, atll appointed commissioners to ext.niune into and(i appraise the damages that might accrue to the company fCom the seizure of thl ir bridge and fixtures, and their divestment of their right to tolls Upf).ll thle slD. Tile Cotninissiotiers in their reuort say: [here Mr. CAss read from 6 Howard's United States Court Re p,,ris, pages 510.] rahe said comissiners are unanimously of the opinion, pla;t pu,biic giv)ooi required th tt the real!state, easement, or I".r-iichile of the finest.iver Bridge Corp)oratioe,, shIould be talke "III compensation matdle ttlerefor thliat sait toll bri,dge mighzit;imereafte because a free bridge.'I hey ha,e therefore assessedi to the said %Vest River Bridlge Corporiation, the sum of $4.00!t —ii furl ati.mpen s aratin stail real estate, easement or franlclhise,"a &G.. ~ c. Sucks was the procedure in Vermont ini su.'h c,ses-and~ th;t procee(ling was reviewed in the I Di tet iStates supreme court and sustained, and the court in that cas.se —s,y, plage 534 —"A fr-nricise is property. and nothing mYn!re"-1-it is incorporeal pro perly." Levi Voodbury, in the sale case, says: "1 concur in the views also, that such a franclhis3e as the inco)rporationl, is a species of property —.ub, ject to be sold, and4 mlay be dh-vised or inherited[ concur therefore, ill the further views, thaft the corporation as a fr.~ncliise, all all its prowers aws franchises, both being prop erty, mlay iv; proper cases be taken for public use." I sayV sir; it is too late to doubt the doctrine that a franchtise is property, ally that, as such, if. may be ta kenl fo~r the pu~blic use; bult n-ver without acomnpen sttionl. Suchl is the law *>f Otlio; such is the -law el adl the. States, and~ of the' Unlion. It is the lavw that we inllierited from the mother country, and hlas been the Mr. CASE. There was never one taken withoutp ' since the accession of William and Mary to the Eng lish throne. There was the little Isle of Man, in the - Irish sea. It was a kinigdon it miniature-ma(le its own laws, had its own sovereign, and its indlepetidence ; to a certain degree, was acknowledged. The British government, however, finding it to be a place of resort , for smugglers, debtors, outlaws &c.,appointted commis sioners some time in the reign of George I. to negoe ilate the surrender of its corporate rights, franchises and privileges. The negociation was completed atd the amountagreed upon, fixed and paid,before the gov ernmetit of England would take absolute possession, jurisdiction and control of the island. The gentleman from Knox [Mr. MITCHELL,] may take this as an offset to his authority of the time of Charles, and will find it in Blackstone. Mr. MITCHELL. Will the gentleman from Lick ing [.Vr. CASE] tell tilhe Cuvenltionl howk much was paid ndier the late reform bill in Fliglautd,in cotsidera tion of the repeal of the borough franchises. Mr. C.SE. Tiese were nmunicipal corporaytious, my dear, sir, about which there was never an question ab,ut the right of repeal —there or here. Mr. hirCHuELL. That was also the case with the Isle of Man. Mr. CASE. No; that was a subordinate royalty originally independent of England —at all events its rights were respected, negoli,ted fo r and valued, and that value paid for them. Sir; the thing lnas never been done. Lookl through all the writers upon public law, from Grotiiis to Whea.. ton, and Kenit, and you will find no one chat recognlizes the right of a State to seize and apoprop,riate the prop erty ot the citizens without compensation. Sir, there is not a heart that will not revolt at the idea that the State-that mnere aggregation of power wliich l men have created to establish justice nd se cire the blessings of liberty-may, in the wanotiness of chat power, lay its hands upon whatever of private pr operty comes in its way, an a ppropriate it to its own ulse or destroy it, without giving to its proprietor the poor privilege of a hearing Un-der such- a law, a man mnay be worth fifty thousand dollars to-day, and to-morrow, by a mere actof the governmitient, in which he has no agency, and of which he has no notice, be so poor that there would be nonie to do hwim reverence; precedents for it may be found in the worst days of Sparlshi rapacity, but not among enlightened States, except occasionally like that of the 8tuart, alluded 246 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAAY, JANUARY 4. a jury-the party having his day in Court, and the aid oi counsel and testimony, as to the value of those franchises thus taken. Mr. President; these are the principles for which I have given my vote, and to which I have pledged my support. I believe they are correct, aiua in their support, I hi,ve acted conscientiously, and in gocd faith. For this, 1 have been rebuked in this flall, and out af it. I have been accused of desertion from the ranks of the Deniicratic party. This I have borne unmoved. I know that I sil.tl meet no censure from mv constituenits, for this part of my course. T'hey hold ~justiee, even handed justice, to be a virtue, and not a crim,,e; they are not ra.;acious; thev are not agrarian,s; nor are the people of Ohio. They will ask from me, th,? performance of no act that is not consistent with ImV views of honesty and justice. I have thus given miv opinions; misrepresentation bas driven me to it. I would gladly have avi what I have had vesaid, could I have reconciled sile i nce with a sense of d uty. I hae heard doctrines advanced here, that I believed to be perh hicious; h osti le to the principles of the Demiocrati.' party; hostile to the sent imentsof t he people of Ohio; hostile to thie con stitution of the United i,ates, wis hit guarantees the inviolability of private property; hostile to the very jewel of the Bill of Rights of our present constitution; hostile to sound State policy; 1-hostile t, sound morals; hostile to that sacred c:nrot written bv the finger of God, upon every mortal heart: "'I'.ic SHALT DO NO WRONG!' I have entered my emphatic protest against tiles,. doctrines and I am now ready to follow it with lily v,ot, Mr. LEECH. Mr. President; I feel constrainied t~, reply briefly to a portion of theremarks just stiumitted' to the Convention, by the gentleman fiom-t Lickipg (Mr. CASE.) That gentleman has read severalextract.> from "Medar y's New Constitution," in order to ~,how that the doctrine, that the General Assembly shou',l,i have an express grant of power to r epeal clearters -(t incorporation, was not advocated by the dcrn,ccratic party, during the canvass for a convention ~to revilet the constitution. He has asserted, with gr.eat positiveness, that "' ledary's New Con;Ctitutnioi," the "omnitrn gatherum," as he is pleased to call it, of the constitutional reforms demanded by the deinocrr,tic party, does not contain a single ar;tele, either editorial or select, in favor of this d'oetrine of repeal. Now, sir, upon this point, I boldly take issue with the gentlenian from Licking. I affirm that the dcfclrie of repeal was asserted and ably advocated ty the demo cratic press of the State, and that this'"fmnrititr gata erum" contains articles of that character. NVhilst the gentleman was speaking, I marked an extract, and re quested him to read it to the Convention, but f:ro some cause or other, he refused to comply with Jry request. Mr. CASE, of Licking, (in his seat.) I forgot it. Mr. LEECH. I will read the extract. It ix fouid ~n page 316 of "Medary's New Constitu,tioni," under the heading. "Reasotns why the People should vnte four Convention to amend the Constitution of Ohio," and is as follows: All, laws, except those by which the faith ofthestatem ay be pledged ill contracting public debts, shouhd be mrjade stU sect to repeal. Just so fa~~ as the people are ruled by law-s which th~ey cannot change, they are ruled by a despotic pow er. It is all essential principle of demo~tcratic gov7ernmxlerts. that the will of lhe majority shall govern at aZl 7ines, anti ;he majority of this year, has no right to make their prser.t will omnipotent, on any subject of legisalaien, against the' awi l of all opposi;,f majori.es.for tw-enty? or Art,'y years to cowre. For, if is adoptting any mneasure whateveir, they shoul}( be mistaken in their views of public policy, it is mranifestly unjust l'or them to place their rrnistalhes bey,,ndl the reach':%f ~ ef rm. If the members of the Legislature sb~ouid disrega;]-,~ the general wetfare, and pass bad laW8 from bad motiv/es, i~ to by the gentleman from Knox. To follow the exam)ple of the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RAN osEY.) in putting extreme cases-we will place this franchise, the Maumee Bridge franchise if you please, worth fifty thousand dollars, in the hands of a widow. It is all she has. Upon its income she depends for her own support and the education of her children. She; is inde endent and comfortable to-day. To-morrow, by a sIngle act of the law making power, her property is annihilated by a repeal of the charter, an1d( she and her children are left to suffer all the evils of poverty and wretchedness. And this is to be done by the State of Ohio! God forbid, that we -should ever set such ant examraple. If such things. are just in a State, why punish the highwayman for acts that differ only in magnitude? It is plunder! nothing else. And the people would scorn stuch doctrine. It is not Democracy! Gentlemien may say what they please, about reading me out of the Demnocratic party. I will go for impartial and even handed justice to all-to the poor as well as the richto the corp)orations as well as individuals. That is what I call Democracy! Justice! .Mr. President: I have heard several attempts at ridicule upon those who have presumed to cite high judicial authorities in this assembly, and the cases reported in W leatont and Howard and Peters have been sneered at. Gentlemenet tell us it is not 2d Peters', but 2d people's reports thatare of authority here. Now 1 do iot know as 1 should succeed, if I were to attempt to define a deniagogue; btit when I hear a lawyer snleering at the citation of an acknowledged legal authority, I should ray that the act exhibits the very essence of demagogueism. I have also heard here much ridicule thrown ipoti our courts bothi State and national. Now if there be any oen thing more than another, that commands the respect of the people at large, it is our courts. To them tkey look, whenever life, liberty or property are ,assailed, and seldom look in vain-and I cannot and will not join in a sentiment calculated to weaken this alniost un iversal respect of ouir people for our courts of justice. In England, for the last hundred years, they have been found the great citadels of liberty-and if liberty is ever overthrown in this free counttry, her gast struggle will be had in thecourts of this countryand so loLg as the legal tribunals are respected and up- held, so 1otg aid no longer, will liberty and virtue flourish in this land. I will close, sir, with a brief recapitulation of the po- 1 sitiotis I have taken. I hold, that every company incorporated by the General Asserrmbly, for the purpose of c(arrying forward any work of industry, or: enterprise-whether it he a bridge, a ferry, an insurance company, a rail, or a plank road-whatever the franchises may be, that are E conferred by the charter, these franchises are property, and are holden by a teiureindependenit of that by which the mere strucl ure of a bridge —the track of a railroad, are holden. That the right to these franchises-as the c right of a bridge company to take toll-the right of a t railroad company to transport passengers and freight a, and to receive payment therefor-is asubstantial right, a hatviig a value of its own, anrid in general, one infitnit ely greater than the mere fixtures to whic h it is at- e tdacied, and out of which the right springs. wy That the General Assembly may, whenever the pub- e lii good shall demand, divest these franchises, and anii- t hilate all the special privileges which they confer; but t .only on this condition, that a full and adequate corn- X pensation in money be made, for,li the loss and dam- c age suffered by the party, whose franchises have beei b divested. This compensation not to be fixed by the r arbitrary act of the Legislature; but to be assessed by th 247 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 4. -if an outrage for such men to have the privilege of making' Th question bfore us, is the propriety of re-con eitactments for any period., like the tyrannical'laws of the Te question before us, is the propriety of re-con lees and Persians,'naltel!" sidering the vote by which the Convention refused to Here, sir, is the doctrine of repeal boldly advocated strike out a portion of the words of the amendment of ih its broadest senise, and it applies as well to chlar- the gentleman from Butler, (Mr. VANCE,) which reads ters n,ow in existence, as to those which may be here- as foll',ws, in connection with the section which we after granted. It is here maintained that the power have agreed to amenid: does exist in any General Assembly to repeal the acts'The General Assembly shall have no power to pass retro of anvp:eceding General Assemibly. Thie great prin- active laws, nor laws impairing the obligations of con ciple ol legislative supremacy which is here asserted, tracts; provided, that all acts of incorporation, and all acts is X lp cable to the past as to the future - The grantinig franchises, and the privileges atid franchises of any ISjst as app ica t he past as to the future. e incorporated company, may be altered, amended, revoked, gentleman cannot construe it to have imerely a pros- or repealed, by the General Assembly of this State, upon pective signification. such terms and conditions pertaining to the inviolability of Sake] 0o-.k iiBon which I have just read, contains, as private property, as is provided for in other cases in this con The work from which I have just read, contains, as st~ut~on. I amt well aware, numerous articles similar inii their T ,Tile l reposition is to strike out from the proviso import t the extract which I have quoted; but as this The ropoitio is to strike out from the proviso debate has sp,rung up suddenly, and to me entirely these words: "Upon such terris and conditions per uine pectedly I am not now prepared, "upon the spur taining to the iniviolability of private property, as is of tho- moment,t" to point them out. Moreover, sir, I provided for in other cases in this Constitution." New, trulst Ihave adduced suffcient to completelydi,prove the gentleman from Licking has declared, and the thipo~iIhioav asduced by the gentlemn froml Lickin. whole point of his argument is, that a few of us derno The deomocatic party, Mr. Presibentle has fo ayL crats here, are Arabs anid robbers, because we wish to TInaia ecr thab the poarr to Mrepeal charters awastrike out these words and leave corporations to bo ma.in~ta,ined that the power to repeal chiarters was ini- i s s t h i prpryahecls ierent ini the General Assemnbly, and that an express robbed of their franchises-(their property as he calls, 'grai" of that power, i]< the coistitution, was not n them, but as I do not call them)-and do not propose cSay in order that it might be exercised. But i that they shall have any conmpensation for the Iran oeder to make "assurance doubly siure"-in order that chises of which they mnay be deprived. the questioin might be completely yea, constitution Mr. CASE, of Licking, [interposing.] I should be ally settled the democracy of Ohio, through the press sorry to be understood as mnaking such a remark of any acid il their primaryassemblies, have most tinequivo- Wnan. What I did say, was, that, to take property cakly demanded that the new organic law of the Com- without compensation, was the doctrine of guerillas taoiv~weaitli shall contain a provision expressly confer- and bandits. 'rig:lpan the General Assembly an unqualified poew- Mr. McCORMICK. If I understood the gentleerXf rep al. I trust, sir, that their demanld will be main s argument, it was, that, if we vote to strike out, c)imp ied with, and that this great cardinal principle we vote to take property without compensatio, which tf the Demrtocratic faith may be engrafted in the new is equivalent, in tie opinion of the gentleman from ctnstii'tioo. Licking, to being Arabs and roblbers. But, Mr. President, I did not rise to argue this ques- Mr. CASE [in his seat,] I leave you to consider as tton at length. I rose simply to set the gentleman you please. fron Licking right upon this subliect, and tovindicate Mr. McCORMICK. Well, I certainly did undertwlah I conceive to be, a cardinal principle of the de- stand the gentleman so; anid he is one of the last men Tttreafic party —that gallant old party to wahich I am iwhom I would allow niyself to misunderstand, for I proaud to belong, and in defence of whose glorious hold the gentleman in very high esteem, and I was p ples I am overwilling todo battle. very sorry to hear the language which fell from himn M!. CASE, of LicKling, apologised briefly for his this morning. forgetful,ie.ss about'reading the extract, but insisted The position of the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. upo,i the truth of his assertion, that the power of re- GRoEsaFCK,] and the gentlemall from Licking, [Mr. I,eail with respect to charters already granted, was not CASE,] is, that a franchise is property. Now, if these agitated amongst the people; and that no such idea was genitleman are correct —if a Iranchise is proaertvgiven out as that of repealinig a charter without mak- then I ask, are not the stockholders secured by the'Ith ing compensation. section of this report? and does not, therefore, all the Ma. LEECH. A word in reply to the gentleman necessity for this amendiment. upon which the gentlefrom Licking, (Mr. CAFE.) I will admit, sir, that the nman from Licking has based his argument, fall to the demociacy of the State did not go itnto all the details ground? The 39th section, for which we have voted, of this subject, and for the good reason, that thle idea secures the right of private property; and, if a otr that a charter ought not to be repealed without a corm- porate fra,chise is property, do you desire that the pensation, was too great an absurdity to bear discuis- property of corporations should be nmore seectre than sion. When a bonus is granted by the State to a cor the property of individuals? If this be so —if a f-ani poratioti, which the corporators have no right to de- chise be property-then whenever the Legislatur. mand, and which the State is under to obligation to shall repeal a charter, the case will come under thr bestow, and hihthe Stneat sem ies uroder Io olgtionke bestow, and the Genieral Assembly sees proper to take provision of the 39th section; and we who are disposed the gift-to say that the State ought to pay it, is too to vote for striking out this clause, ( hope it will br ridiculous, and too monstrous an absurdity to admit of stricken out,) are neither Arabs tor robbers. discussion before an intelligent community. And, ir. CASE of Licking. I cannot submit to he strange to say, the doctrine findes advocates on this any nman put into my mouth words which X iever floor! used. I reiteratemy denial. I used nosuchlanguage Mr. McCORMICK. I rise, not for the purpose of.What Isaid, was, that the doctrine of tahing propermaking a speech, for I think we have had enough ty by the State without compensation, hearing'or Speeches in all conscience. But, aswe have just been trial, was the doctritte of guerrillas and bandits. I highly interested with a speech of an hour and a half said no more than this. the whole point of which was based upon a false hy- Mr. McCORMICK. Thten, as a matter of course5 potiesis, I rise for the purpose of propounding to the if that is the gentleman's position his whole lrgums) gentleman from Licking, a question or two, which 1 falls to the ground. For, it has nothing at nil to, d, most respectfully beg of him to answer, and to answer with the question,as not a man here has advocated su. I, fairly. a proposition. 48 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES -SATUR)AY, JANUAhY 4. 249 willing to put anything of that sort into the constitution, I am opposed to the latter part of this proviso. Mr. STANBERY, (interposing.) I wish to ask the gentleman, in what particular, any mnember upon this floor, has avowed himself in favor of giving to corporations, any privilege not belonging to individuals? Mr. DORSEY. That is exactly what I expect to show. That is exactly what I am coming to; and I expect to show that the latter clause of this proviso, has been dug up, for the express purpose of granting privileges, at least by implication, which are not granted to individuals; and for that reason I am opposed to it. I am opposed to the state being allowed ever to assume such a relation, either towards individuals or corporations, as will allow the rights of the latter to be inifringed, or their property inivaded, by the strong hand of power; and we have provided against this, in the 39th section of the report before us. What is the language of that section? It is that private property shall ever be held inviolate. What property? of individuals only? No sir; but all'private property, whether of individuals or corporations all such property is to be held inviolate. A corporation is nothing more nor less than an association of individuals; and if a corporation has property, and the state chooses to take it to itself, the state becomes bound for that property, and must pay for it. But whatsoever the state has freely granted, that the state. may freely take away. If she freely gave certain priv ileges, franchises if you please, those privileges she may be allowed freely to resume. That is the doctrine. And, therefore, when we have provided that all acts of incorporation, and all privileges of incorporated companies, may be altered, amended, revoked, or repealed, that is all we wish to provide here. But, if we go on and state that this shall be done "upon such terms and conditions, pertaining to the inviolability of private property, as is provided in other cases, in this constitution," it will be equivalent to an assertion in the constitution, that corporations have certain rights which do not belong to individiuals; or if this is not the intention of the clause, we shall then be doing only that which is amply provided for in the 39th section of this report. liere is the dilemma for the friends of the latter clause of thlis proviso. I care not which horn they take. I take neither. I strike it out. Mr. RANNEY. The lat t er part of the provise, places th e fra nchise of a corporati uon upon the samo ground with property, in all cases. 1N o matter how great the injustice inflicted bv the corporation upon the community might be, it w,ould still be obligatory upon the General Assembly, to provide for paying them for their franchise, whenever they take their charter. This question would come up in all cases of repeal. The state could never exercise the right of repeal, without going into the pualic treasury, and drawing as much money from it, as the charter is worth to the stock holders. Sir, if the latter portion of this proviso is to remain, I shall vote against it. I am in favor of-the declaration in the former part of the proviso, though I do not regard it as giving any more power to the Legislature than they already possess. B~ut, with the latter psrtion, it would be much worse than nothing.'fhe right of repeal would unquestionably retrain in the General Ass-embly, without any constitutional dec laration. But, inasmuch as it has been open to per version heretofore, inasmuch as different opinions have prevailed, and the rights of the people have been disregarded by means of false constructionls, I thinlk we ought to make such a declaration, simply, stript of all objectionable mnatter —a declaration plain, di I hesitate not to avow my hostility to all corporate bodies, as they now exist in this State; and I hesitate not to declare them not only illegal, but illegal frauds upon the public, and I believe the Legislature has the, unqualified right of repeal; and, were I acting in thl, Legislature, I should so act, and so vote. I am not onlyopposed to corporations, as they now are, but I am opposod to the legal position taken b3 gentlemen here, in order to secure them in the possession and enjoyment of their franchsies. At the same time, I affirm, that no m an h ere propo se s to take property without pavy. The observance of that principle is amply secured y thie 39th Sec. and if the legal position of the gentlemani be correct; particular legislation,such asthis amendmen t propos es, is uncalled for,unnecessary and absurd. Mr. DORSEY. I do not wish the vote to be taken w ithout first av ailing myself of the privilege of making a few remark s u pon this subject. I suppose that a mo tio n to reconsider, naturally calls for remarks upon the w hol e matter at issue, a nd g ives us the right to state th e position which we occupy. I wish to make a plain staternedt. stript of all verbiage, of the position in which I expec t to stand, and that which I hold may be safe ly occupi ed, not o.lv by gentlemen st anding upon the same side with mys elf, but also by those upon th e opposite side of this chamber. As a short introductory to what I shall say, I wish it to be unders tood, that I do not in t end to speak in any party sense. The gentlenian from Licking (Mr.:, CAsFh), cannot stand, with ref e rence to this matted, in a worbse category than myself; for, in common with tat genitleman, I also have, since the commencement of this cohnven tion, stood some very narrow chances of beinig read out of th he party. But I say notoliig about that. I advocate this principle-not on account of party considerations-but, because it is founded in right and justice. It is a principle, with respect to which I can appeal to gentlemen o-f all parties upon this floor, as representatives of the people of Ohio, to come over and stand, and vote, with me. The doctrine which I advocate here, in common with those with whom I vote, is the broad doctrine of repeal; namely: that one Legislature has the right and the power to repeal the acts of every previous Legisiature-be they what they may-that no power can, by any possibility, be invested in ally one Legislative body, which may not be assumed and exercised, with all its concomitants, by any legislative body which may succeed it. And I say this, plainly, and openly, that this doctrine was that upon which the Democratic party came into this contest; and it is a doctrine which they expect this convention to carry out: and the gentleman from Licking agrees with me here. He argues that the doctrine of repeal was plainly and expressly advocated among the people, and expected to be carried out in this convention. But I go farther, and say,with thegentleman from Licking-and there is no member upon this floor, will contradict me —that, in carrying out this doctrine, it was no part of the design, that one particle of injustice should be done to any individual or corporation within the bounds of the State of Ohio. I am not one of those who seem to have a peculiar horror of corporations. Indeed I am not at all opposed to corporations properly formed. I believe t;hey are decidedly necessary to carry forward the best interests of the people. Buit, at the same time, that I would be unwilling to do anything that would derogate from the just rights of corporations, I am utterly averse to inserting a~n - th~ing in the co3nstitution which shall prescribe, even by implication, that corporations have any rights or immunities which are not enjoyed by every indi[vidual citizen of the State of Ohio. And, because I a not OHIO CONVENTION, DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 4. ; embrace with my whole heart, as founded in justice. Such, I am convinced, are all the great principles of the democratic faith, and every year but adds depth to that conviction. Therefore, wheresoever I find a w democratic principle —a principle founded injustice and right, it cannot fail to receive my support any less zealously here, than elsewhere. It is im such a w sense as this that we hold our party principles, They are as dear to us as our lives, and if we cannot carry them out here, I know not where, with more proprie ty, we could carry them out. This is to be a funda mental law, where more proper to insert fuadamen alprinciples. The gentleman from Licking has put a case. It is the same old bridge-inearly worn out as an argu M ienet-but these gentlemen can iever get anything but a bridge. A company of men built a bridge across the Miami river. They used it until, he said, it had fully repaid- them for everything they had ex pended upon it. He says the structure cost them, $50,000 to begin: and that the franchise or act of in corporatioii is still worth $50,000: and he asks, in triumph, would the State now lay hands upon that charter without paying them $50,"000? But when th at exclusive privilege was conceded to these me n. it was so much taken awavy from the lib erty of every citizen around there, who might choose to occupy that bridge site. And now, in order to re gain the liberty so taken away from- these citizens, it is the gentleman's doctrine, that it becomes the duty of the State, to give these fellowvs a bonusof $50,000for it, and collect the money from you and me by means of taxation! I want nothing but his own example, to enable me to say, that a doctrine, with consequen ces mor e u n just, could of ot be advocate(d. But, let us suppose a nother case. Le t us sa ppose that, twenty years ago, the exclusive right of ferrying across this rive r was secured b y a charter, to a com pany here, along the wharfs anc landings o f this c ito y. Suppose that right to have been enjoy ed for twenty years, and that the charter has yet twenty years to run. The right is without competition, to carry you across, under just as unfavorable circumstances as they please. No body can interfere for forty years; for that, is the term of the charter. I will suppose, moreover, that the profits of every year re,pay to;he four fold, all that they have ever embarked in it. And yet, the people of this great city are to stand still, for twenty years more, and allow this single cornpani to pile up their twenty, thirty and forty thousand dollars a year, by way of profits; because, twenty years ago, the legislature of the State, bargained away the rights of this people, to enioy the benefits and profits of a ferry, for forty years! All that they have embarked in the enterprise, I suppose never to have cost them more than $5,000, out of the profits of which, they have pil,ed up their fortunes, which am still increasing; and you are to stand by and see these immense fortunes made, out of a franchise, (which is your own,) because your ancestors pass,d an act of incorporation! I do not know that such a casehas actually occurred, but the example illustrates the principle and shows the consequence to which the doctrine of chartered immunity leads 1s. But it has been said, that a franchise is property. Following the same example? then, I *suppose that each of the individuals composing this comnpany, before this privilege of a ferry was granted to themn, to have been worth $2,000, consisting of lansds, houses, cattle, horses, anything. And the day after the charter was passed, I suppose the franchise itself to hate been worth $50,000. That in the hands of the two individuals composing the company, would make them worthS$27,0}00 apiece. How so? Why, this act ret, and ponsitive- open to no perversion, and subject to no evasion. aMr. Pres id ent, I make allowance for the gentle man from Licking, (Mlr. CASE,) as I do for every mall who speaks in the he at of deb ate. I do not th ink he really inteonded, what tS r he words heused, would in(i cate. But he did say, that.lthis kind of democracy, which wrear e contending fo r, was th e d emocracy of the highwayman. ,Mr. ARCHBOLD, (interruptiDng.) I th in k the gec-, tleman from Licking was inis- understood. He was arguig upon an abstraction, and non e w e re ineclud ed within te e he t erms he used, unless gentlemen choose to include themselves. I endors e everything sai d by the gentleman from Licking. M r. CASE of Licking, re hearsed the language lie had used, as heretofore given. Mr. RANNEY. The gecntlemain, by his ewxplana tio p, only gets in deeper. Mr. CAsE, (in his seat.) V ery well. I g o that deep. Mr. RANNEY. We have his explanation; anid what does i t amount to? Why, simply this: that the ad voca tes of a certain doctrine- men here, who are known to sp eak and vote that way are advocates of the doctrine of the highwayman. Such are the advo cat e s of the doctrine which the gentleman argu(edd againist, and which the gentleinan from Monroe,. (Mr. ARChBSOLD,) acod himself, ndertalde to denounce. Mr. AR WHBOLD, (in his seat;,) I said I did nset hold the language to be personal. Mrr. RANNEY. The cs tallusion was to those per sons who sustained t ha t doctri n e, and I am one wcf that number. Then let it b e t he doctrine of the higla wayr nan. It i s my doc tr ine neverthe less, that the legislatur e have the power, and the right, to take away the privi es es and franchises they havegranl, ed, and th at without corpensation. The franchises, I say —not property. Anybody that cannot distin gish between the most artificial person, the creature of legislative power, and their property, cannot make a very close distinction. I would iiot'touch one cent of the property of a corporation any sooner than [ would that of an individual. 1 would guard the rights of prope rt y wit h the same fidelity, whether it were the property of rich or poor, corporation or pri vateindividuals. Sir, I have always claimed, that the rights of property should forever remaiin inviolate, and I trust that my votes here have given no inidicat,ion of a willingness to relinquish that claim. The acquisition and enjoyment of private property is:t natural right. Government is bound to protect in. The State does not confer it, and ought not to invade it. The State does confer all corporate powers anl( privileges. When it takes them away, it takes noth ing but what it has conferred. The public good, guided by justice to all, shouild control both in thy granlt, and its resumption by the State. Sir, If gentlemen choose to brand the doctrinal which I advocate, with hard narnes, it will not disturb me. I am not disposed to flare up at being called hard names. I have lived toolong for that. I have had so much experience in political warfare, I have been so often called hard narnes, that they sound to my ears more agreeable than flattery. I do nost c/are for the names. Let us look at the thwinl Th}e gentleman, [Mr. 0As~,] said, ~hen he came here, that he left at home all his party principles. Well; if he meant that he would not allow his mere party tactics to guide him in his acts heres I am with himt. But, if he meant that he left his party principles at home, that is another thing. If I had left my partyr principles at home, I should have left rayselifthere I never adopted a party principle but what I could 1 2.50 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 4. of the legislature has given them $25,000 apiece, out' stead of stating extreme cases, would argue a principle, and out. It is property. You cannot touch it. And I would listen to him with more pleasure. But I alif the legislature, on the next day after the passage of ways hear him with pleasure. the charter, had been disposed to take it away, they Mr. RANNEY. I want to ask the gentll'man from must call a jury and witnesses, to declare what this Fratklin a question. Does that gentleranll hole, that right would be worth for forty years, and pay the es- the franchise of a corporation nmay be resumed by the timate of 50,000, before they could get it! This is State, when no public use of the State demands that it property, is it? Is itnot a sheer absurdity, so to naine should be resunied? itl Mr. STANBERY, (In his seat). It should not be What is property? We have all been accustomed resurned, unless the public good require it. toregard itassomethingtangible. WIenMweha'veac- Mr. RANNEY. Public good, and public use, are quired a horse, or a farm, we know what it is. But different terms. Let us look at the right ol property. the idea, that you can cheat the legislature into the I Property cannnot be taken except for public use. Now grant of some exclusive privilege, and call that prop- will thegetlemrnan come ini and say, litha the franchise erty,is certainly the most absurd of all hui-mbugs. of a corporation shall not be taklen except for public Wvhen the U. S. Batik charter expired, and appli- use? cation was made to the legislature of the State of Pennsylvaniia, for another, weall know that the prop- Mr. HITCI-COCK, of Cuyahoga, (l1terposng) oetion wias go at throughk t hatbody, by means of drow- Does the genitlemnan suppose, that, in case an invading osition was got through that body, by means of dowi right bribery, faud and corruption. And the mO- army were to land at Sandusky City, thie government merit the charter was passed, it was worth amillion could not destroy the two railroads leading out from For now, it was entirely out of the power of the leg- that point? islature to repeal it, an;d why? Because the charter Mr. RANNEY. No doubt of that whatever. But granted, was property! Well, but the government the gentleman would thank me not to put extreme nevercreated anything. We have been accustomed cases. Well, I am willing to extend that courtesy to to regard the goyernment as a great conisumier; but the gentleman, if he will extend the samrre to me. But the idea that it ever produced anyvthing, was never 1 have heard of nothing but bridle-paths and bridges, asserted. Then if the government make a grant of taken for examples on that side of the argument. A anything valuable, where does it come fromi? It bridge! A bridle! that is their great cry. They first must come f om the great mass of the interests of the get something plainly for the public good,and then propeople, which the government represents. So, if any ceed to niake their illustrations by it. j3ut, let me say General Assemnbly have granted and bargained away to the gentlemen, that I put it upont the ground that anything of value, it belonged originally to the peo- the Legislature has power over the subject. I do not pile they represented. undertake to say how the Legislature shall exercise that Icannot rank myself with those who are greaten- power. But, if the object in the creation of the corthusiasts for coraorations; and if this restriction poratioti be the public good, does the gentleman supshould have the effect of reducing the number of them, pose that the Legislature are going to repeal the charit would be all the better in my judgment. I am ter of a corporation whenever su(ch repeal is not deaware that there are certain great social and cornmer- mnanded for the public good? Oh, this distrust of the cial objects, which cannot be accomplished without Legislature! Whenever the question is in regard to association. Well, let corporations he authorized then, the creation of a corporation, then it is safe to trust the but give them no exclusive privileges. People are Legislature. But the moment the corporation is crenot going to submit to wrong under this idea, much ated, it becomes too dangerous to give the Legislature longer. The worst enemies to corporations, in a Just any more power over them. They themselves would sense, are those who would hang on to the power, by not do injustice, were they in the Legislature. The which they have always endeavored to drag some- gentleman from Franklin would not. No gentleman thing from the comnmunity, not enjoyed by all. Sir, if would. "All men think all men mortal but themcorporations cannot exist without this-if franchises selves." But I amr willing to say, Let the people's reare to be taken and enjoyed by corporations, at the presentatives do their duty in thleise cases, as well as il expense of the rest of the conimrnunity-if this is to all others. Let them do right. If theexercise of corbe demonstratedto my mind-from that day forth, I porate power promotes the public good, continue it; wage an eternal and exterminating war againstall if not, take it away. corporations. I am for death and destruction to the But you can trust the Leiature twhole of them. But, sir, I believe that the great atthe w,lldo .no iniustice to individuals. Sir, the old ladies have principle of association can be maintained; and that no njustceto ndvdls Sr, the old ads have all the benefits to be derived from the legal identity ofbeen appealed to in this debate; but, id it ever ocfur mnto those old ladies, when they went to bed at night, many persons, may be secured without being attend- and adslept sound, that all the interests that exist ing ed by this dangerous principle. If this canl be done, lawS secure to them in the estates of their husbands, then I an itn iavor of corporations; butif it cannot, were its the a idsof the Legisature, ao d thhit ituaight then I m againt them rom thestump.were in the hands of the Legislature, anld that itn1W~ght then I am against them from the stu ndmop. be taken awav from them any day, by the power W at are corporaios created f or? My friend from which they might exercise? Did any nervous old Franklin (Mtr. STANP:RY) contended that they ought man, whose fears are attempted to be awakened, ever not to be created, unless they were for the public good. reflet that this same Legislature could o chane the Wo,. reflect.. ito the tuis same Legislature could so change the We cannlot 00.k inlto the future. We are all tallhiolJ. We aitot ookino te ftur. W ae al fllilelaw of" descent, that not one copper's-worth of the men-especially all Democrats. But, by the creation wealth which he has been striving all his life to pile of corporations, our power is put into tile hands of tie up could go to his children? Did he ever reflect, that Legislature for the public good. They Iiray unexpect- even his life and liberty were, to a very great extent, edly work injury; and then they will very likely say, in the hands of the Legislature? Then, life, liberty, that, after it is ouce grantted and bargained away, it is private property, and social relations, are all safe eternally gone, if sych be the terms of the charter. enough in the hands of the legislature; they can pro Mr. S1'ANBERY (interposing). Corporations are J vide laws safe enough for the natural person; but undoubtedly created for the public good; E rd their fran-; when it comes to the legal person-the corporalaionchises may be resumed upon the same grounds that: all is fear and caution; and the ground of that fear other property may be taken. If the gentleman, in- { was well stated by the gentleman from Hamiton,(Mr. 251 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUAnY 4. REaMriLLN,) to be, because they know that they have been exercising injustice. Sir, their conscience af flicts them. "Srhe wicked iflee when no man purfu eth." Give to them no more privileges than individ nals have, and they need not fear. Sir, there is not a government in the world, as conservative in regard to the rights of property, as the people of America. Every man in this country, either has a little prop erty, or ex.pects to make some; and the less he has, the more careful will he be to throw the sanctions (f law around it. And I do hope that we are piogress ing toward that point of our political history, when there shall come up from every elector in the country a demand for a practical exemplification of equality of rights and equality of privileges, and burdens. In no other way can either person or property, be ade - quately protected. The gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE,) puts his whole argument upon the ground, that a franchise is property, and that we are bound to protect the rights of property. But I ask that gentleman, if he cannot distinguish between property which an individual may own, and the bare legislative privilege, to use it in a particular manner? It seems to me there is a very palpable distinction. For example, to-day I may be in the enjoyment of an office, I have embarke1d my property in such a manner as to be able to exe cute its duties. But, to-morrow you sweep away the office-taking only the othce, not the property. Who grumbles at this? Not even the gentleman from Lick ing. This is plainly a right which the legislature may exercise. But when you come to touch the char ter of a corporation, said to be suspended upon the principle of the public good, gentlemen would be down upon you with the cry of "a contract." Mr. CAS]E of Licking,(in his seat.) If itwerea contract, it could be taken for the public welfare. Mr. RANNEY. Does the gentleman pretend to lay down the doctrine, that the property of private individuals, may be takenr) at the will of th,e legisla ture? or must they not find some imperative public necessity for the use of it, before they can take it? Mr. CASE. The latter, certainly. Mr. RANNEY. Unless you can demonstrate some public use for it, you cannot take it. If this be the case, then I concur with the gentleman from Adamins, (Mr. MCCORMITCK.) that you are amply protected, byv the 39th sectionI. Aye, but there is a little fear about that; and I frankly confess, that I do not believe it will protect you, in your claimi, for pay for charters. If I thought it would, I would vote against that sec tion. It might be right, in some cases, to pay so me thing to a corporation, for their privileges. A change of times might render that which has been heretofore a public benefit. hliereafter, a publicinjury. In such cases here is nothing to prevent the legislature from doing justice. But the gentleman from Licking says, that a franchise is property, and that valuation and compensation is the rule you must follow, before you can take it. Then, as 1 have said before, it results in this; that the more the community has been cheated, the more valuable will be the exclusive privilege. The more unguarded the charter, the more it will be worth to the corporaters. The more palpable and thorough the cheat, the more it would cost to get clear of it. Sir, Iacknowledge no such doctrine asthat; and, if the remedy proposed should have the effect to discourage the process which has been so long going on, of shingling the State all over with corporations, engulphing all business in the hands of monopolies, thereby striking down the energies of private enterprisc-I am neither a prophet nor the son of a proph et, but I ve rily believe, that, fifty years hence, the men th at shall standin your pl aces, and possess this good ly land, will bless y ou for thi s day's work, if it shall have the effect of p teect ing i ndividual men from the power of associated wealth. But gentleman sav, we will extend the operati on of this clausta e to all fut ure corporations, butw cannot look back.' Well, another bridge will have to be made across the Maumee river, when the old one shall rot down, by the hand of ano the r company; and I want tosee the legislature guided by a correct rule, in granting their charter. But the gentlemen cannot safely trust theid exist in g co rporat ion interest s in the hands of the legislature, when thev are willing to leavethe interest of every one who shall embark his property in corpo rations hereafter. How is it, that gentlemen can talk of the same principle, as justin its application tothe future, and unjust ill its application to existing cor porations. I ispeak now of the justice of the case; not of the legal question? Can gentlemen suppose that the same legislative body, which would be just toward the interest of all corporations hereafter to be authorized, would become Arabs, barbarians, and guerillas with respect to the interests of existing corporations? But, upon the question of justice, the gentleman's doctrine cannot be maintained for one moment; and I do not propose to follow him, in his application of that higher law, to which he referred. Re affirmed, however, that the law of God itself, forbids that we should apply the repealing hand to these charters. But in respect to those charters to be granted hereafter, it appears that the same high law admits of their re peal. So that, according to the gentlemanD even the Almrighty himself, has made two rules upon the sub ject. But now I do hope that we may, at this time, dispose of this question. If a majority are goings*o vote down the right of repeal, let it be. done. If' we are to go home, and tell the people, that whenever our ancestors may have bargained away their rights, they cannot touch them again, let us go and tell the mournful tale. I do riot know but the friends of equal rights, whom gentlemen represent, will respond to it-well done. But I do know, if there is any one thing above another which I have desired with reference to our action here, it is to carry out a principle which I have long main tained against majorities; it is that this constitution shall proclaim that the people's representatives are su. preme upon the subject of corporate rights. Other gentlemen can do as they please. I imaeach the mo tives of no man; nor do I characterize ally Cou7rSe of action by hard names, which can only help to bolster up a bad cause. But I do think that my friend from Licking [Mr. CASE.], will find, that his pridle of opiniion, after having embarked urban the wrong side, has really more to'do with his position upon his question, than this cool, calm and deliberate judgment. We, sir, contend for no unjust doctrine. We contend for tthe same equal and exa( t justice to be exercised toward corporations as men are willing to concede to individuals-no more, nor no less. We maintain that the law-making power shall not be crippled. We cannot subscribe to a bare legislative edict, making one. portion of our fellow citizens rich, at the expense of the rest, and declare such an edict to be beyond the power, not only of the Legislature, but of the people themselves, to repeal. If i am a heretic ill this, I am an irreclaimable one. The first lesson —the first thought I ever had upon political subjects, was in opposition to that. Anld if I know of anything which hus conlstantly floated at the mast-head of the democratic flag, it 252 OHIO CONVENTICN DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 4. has been legislative supremacy over corporate powers. Provided, that all acts of incorporation and acts granting This claim has been made constantly in all our egis- franchises, may be altered, amended, revoked or repealed by 'the General Assembly of this State., [upon such terms and lative bodies, asid constantly by the people; and it has erlAsmbyothstae[uosuhtrian lotire bodies, and constatybtheconditions pertalning to the inviolability of private proper been as constantly resisted by those who now resist it. ty as is provided in other cases in this Constitution.] But I am astonished to-day, to find that the democracy On yesterday, a otion was made to strike out the of Ohio have sent up here some men holding a differ- O yser am n ma to t ou h ent doctrine. Sir, I believe this right of unqualified latter clause of this a mend ment, to wit:'Upon such terms, and conditions pertaining to the inviolability repeal to be one of our fundamental principles. It was of private property a is provided ing to ther cases iniolablity one of the great elements of our party creed, first uro-of private property as provided in other cases in claimed by THOMAS JEFFERSON, in that imperishable The motion to strike out failed. A motion has document, the Declaration of Arnericar, Inldepender e- since been made to recons ider the vot e by which the thsat all men are born free and equal —and the doctrinewic enmd orcnie h oeb hc h that all men are bon,i free and eqoul-auid the doctrine Convention refused to strike out the words I have just of the majority here is a direct infringement uponi the recited with a view to strike them out. great princple there poclaimed irecited, with a view'to strike them oult. great priniciple,' there proclaimed. The prposition really before the Couvention,at this Such, sir, is my understanding of this doctrine of time theefore s that all aets of incorporation, anti repel. I ha alwys mt wth ny hertyapprba-time, therefore, is, that. all acts of incorporation, and repeal. It has always met with my hearty approba - tion; and I have proclaimed it upon the stamp, be- acts conferr franchises, may e altered,revoked or cause it was the conviction of rry heart. I meant repealed by the Genieral Assembly. If the Convention what I said. I did not mean to tickle the ears meant reconsiders the vote bywhich it refused to strike out. what I said. I did not mean to tickle the ears of the and then strikes out (from Mr. VAN'cE's ainendmneyt) community with a sounding declaration upon one day,ment) , the words "upon such terms and conditions pertain which I would not stand by ol the next day. I did to theiviolability of private property, as is pro,,,.,,, l~~~~~~ng to the inlviolabilit. of privrate prope~rty, as is pronot handle my political creed as a boy uses his top- vied in other cases i- this Costittioi," th the z. 1. 1. 1.. ~~~~~vided in other cases in this Con1stitu~t1ion," then the being amused with it to day, and to morrow throwing proposition which I have stated as the pending quesit to the winds-to-day approving and proclaiming a tion, alone is left. great party principle, and to morrow putting into the The real difference between the two parties on tlis new constitution what is as nearly allied to the princi- question, is this: one party contends that we shouldi pies of the party opposed to us, as anything can be. oneru te eglal te in Mr. REM~LN the movd tha theConvetionconfer upon the Legislature the, right, not, only of re Mr. REEMELIN then anoved that the Convention paigtecatr fa oprf'shratr1 atijourn, on which m o t i o n ~pealing- the chiarters, of all corporations hereafter io adtjou rn, on whilch motion be created, but the right of repealing all charters here Mr. MANON demanded the.yeas and nays, and be- tofore grated and r,ow iiei s lence The dotrineing ordered, resulted-yeas 38, nays 55, as follows: uvowed bv the gentleman froin Trumbull [Mr. RAN YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill-.NEY. ] is, that the General Assembly has the powerCase of Hocking, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Greene of Defit not, the power, but the right —to terminaii,te the paolitlance, Green of Ross, Groesbeckl, Hard, Harlan, H olm esr, rig' e Holt. Humphre,ille, Jones, Kenun a, King, Larsh, Ia w cal life of all corporations, uTnconditionally. Theni it renee, Lee,;h, Leadbetter, Lidcley, Loudon, Morehead, McCor- is openly avowed that we slould declare, in the new snick,'ash, Norris, Ortion, Reemelin, Ri,idle, loll, Sco t t of Cottutio, that the legislative elpartet sall Harrison, Sebbins, Struble, Thompson of Shelby and Wil- have the power to repeal all acts of incoii-ptiia lianas-98. 1 aps~~~~~hae the power to reposal all acts of incorporationx liams-28. NAYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, BennettI heretofore granted. without miakinig compensation, eiBrown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Lickliing, ther for the tangible property, or tie franchise of the Chanibers, Chaney, Clark Colings Cookl CurryJEwing corpogation. Now, I declare that I will sanction no Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gray, Gregg, 14amilton. Hendersono Hitchcock )f Cuyahoga, Hootmaln, Horton, Hunt, Hunter such proposition by my vote. Johnson, Manon, Mas on, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, Otis, In the first place, Mr. President, I will give the reds Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Sawyer, Scott of Au- ons for the vote which I shall give u[-oi this question glaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smi th of Wsmarr, -iith I shall not do so, for the purp)ose of influencing the vote of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Swift, TIylor, Thompsoni cf Staik,''ownshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wil- of any olher delegale all that I wish to do, is to justify son, Woodbury, Worthington and President-55. my owi action t o my conscience, and to my constit So the motion to adjourn was disagreed to. uents The questions then being ol thf- motion of Mr. STAN The moment that the Legislature repeals an act of ERY to take a recess, it was agreed to. incorporation, its property is gone. The real estate reverts to the doiior, and every debt owing to and fromn that corporation, is gone in law and equity. This. AFTERNOON SESSION. gentlemen, is the power you will confer upon the Leg 3 O'CLOCK islature, if you reconsider the previous vote, and then OCK P M strike out the latter part of the [iroposition of the gen The pending question being upon the motion of- tieman from Butler, [Mr. VANCE]. I contend, that MIr. HARD to reconsider the vote by which the Con when we conifer upon the Legislature, the righlit to revention refused to strike out the latter clause of the peal charters, we should confer with it, the limitation amendment of Mr. VANCE of Butler, upon its exercise. Mr. ARCHBOLD opposed the umotion, on grounds I k now that the gentleman from Miamni, [Mr. Doissy], heretofore fully stated; principally because the effect thinks that he relieves hims,elf of the responsibility of of adopting a constitutional provision, such as the voting to strike out the latter part of the arm-endment, proposition of Mr. VANCE would he with the latter [Mr. VANcE's], and thereby givilng the General Assemclause stricken out, would be to discourage the laud- bly power to repeal all charters without a provision for able and most beneficial system of internal improve- making compensation, by saying that Section 39 proments carried on by associations of individuals, with- vides for compensalioni in such cases. ouit connection with the State Treasury. But, sir, he cannot throw off the responsibility thus Mr. KENNON. Mr. President, allow me to occupy easily, that section does not apply to the property of the time of this body for a few minutes, with a re- corporations. view of the pending question. What is the ques- Mr. DORSEY. Will it not apply as well to the tion? property of corpo ations, as to that of individuals? On the day before yesterday, the gentleman from Mr. KENNON. No. sir. Sec. 39 reads as follows: Butler (Mr. VANCE) offered the following amendment "Private property shall ever be held inviolate, and no prito the section relative to the repealability of char- vate property shall ever be taKen for public use, unless the ters: public good imperatively demands it; but in all cases, full 253 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATUlRDAY, JANUARY 4. e He, (Mr. REMELIrN,) is apprehensive that the Su prerne court would take away the sovereignty of the people while it conferred and concentrated power on the Federal Government. Nowv let us suppose the time to arrive when gold and silver becomes so scarce that the quantity in circulation fails to meet the der mands and the necessities of commerce, and suppose p we introduce a clause, into the constitution of the t State of Ohio, providing that paper money should be received as a legal tender fior debts in this State? And suppose that a member of this convention should support such a proposition, what would the anti-bank and hard money delegate from Hamilton, (Mr. REFMl LIN,) Say to that? iMr. REEMELIN. I would, if overruled by a ma jority, submnit the matter to a vote of the people. t Ir. KENNON. But you have sworn to support f the Constitution of the United States-you took an oath to that effect when you took your seat in this body, and you can, in view of that o(ath, incorporate no provision in this instrument which contraveniies a.nyprovision of the Federal Constitution. t Now if an act of incorporation be a contract then in the face of the Constitutional declaration that no f State shall pass any "ex post faclo law, or law im pairing the obligation of contractts," this Convention can no more repeal a charter than it can make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment , for debts." The samne oath which would require lus to reject the first proposition would compel us to re ject the latter. The people of this country, have, through their Representatives, in National Conven tionl Assenmbled, created a Supreme Judicial Tribu. nal-the Sutipreme Court of the United States, which is to decide all cases arising uindei the Constitution. The question to be decided btfore this tribiunal "is aii act of incorporation a "contract" within the imeaning of the Sec. 10 of Art. 1 of the U. S. Constitution? I am told by the gentlemen from Knox, Medina, Truin bull anrid Hamnilton, (Messrs. MTCII:LL, HUMPIIREViLLE, RtANT'NEY arid REEMEL.N,) aud others, that a charter is on a contract. I shall not now enter in lto the distcus sion of that particular question. I shall not under take to prove thal an act of incorporation is or is not a contract. Butt, sir, what I do say, is that the hlighest tribunal of the country-the only tribunal competent to decide the question: has decided that a charter is a contract. Aid not only so. but the Supreme Courts of most of the States in the Union have unifoimnly miad similar decisions. The Supremie Court of the United States has existed for more than half a century, and during all that tinme has been filled by men as emiin ent for their legal attainmients and Conistitutional learning as any member of this Convention, and they have all decided thatsomie, at least, of these acts of incorporatioh, are contracts, within the terms and meaning of the Constitution. The Supreme Court of the United States has so decided as late as 1848, a Democratic bench, at that. I admit that the Supremne Court may have been wrong, but we have sworn to obey thie Constitution, and these uniform decisions are the best evidendce of the i ieaning of that instrument. What is to be dole? Here is a proposition to confer upon the Lcegislatlure the power to repeal all1 charters, whenever andl however granted. The Constitution of the United States declares that "no0 State shall pass all es post facto lawr or a law ills pairing the obligation of contracfts, and the Superiem Court of the United States has decided that charters are contracts. Gentlemen say, "let us adopt this section conferring upon the LCegislature the ponder to repeal charterse-let us declare in the organic Lawt that which and adequate compensation in mohey shall be made to the owner, subject to no deduction for any benefits, &c., derived t any property of the owner." Now, will th e gentleman unde rtak e to say that when, the Legislature, acting under a constitutional provision, like the. ole n ow in debate, repeals an act of inUcoorpora tion, tha t the property of th at corpor ation is tal. enc for "public use," within the meaning of Sec. 39, and so that the State would be bound to make compensation the refor? Not a particle of it, sir. If I have corr ectly r e ad the initentions, and compre hende d the designs of this onvention, they have been to restrict the Legislature il the exercise of power, to confer as little power as possible upon th at department of govers,meont. But, sir, now when we have arrived at the section providing for the reUeal of c harters, it is proposed, by tyle very men who have been most earnest in their endeavors to curtail the Legislatu re of powers, to conifer upon tlat body the exercise of un - limite d powner; pow dfer which I would confer u pon no tribunal on earth. It has been said, in the course of this debate, that it is w thini the legitimate exercise of legislative powers to repeal all existing acts of incorporation; and this, it is also declared, is a great leading prinicipale of the-Dem ocratic party, and has bee n a port ion of t he cre ed of that party for year,. Now, siu, I tdiak n o man in tha is convention, can prove the trulh of that assertion. In the first place, Mr. President, every member of this Convenitioni has taken an oathto support the constitution of the United States. I know that every delegate will sacre(dly ob erve that oath. Now what is the power of the Supreme Court of the United States over. this question of the repealability of chalrters? And here, in passing, I will notice a remark made by the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. PrEEMELIN,) a few evenings since,wwhen I wvas-briefly stating the position of the courts with regard to the repealability of charters. He said that'the announcement of may principles ill this regard made him tremble for the interests of the people," at the( time. Sir, I regarded this ejaculation as i rhetorical flourish, but really I should like to have seen him tremble, (laughter.) If the gentleman wore boots we should have seen morea man trembling in his boots! (laughter.) I cannot repress a desire to have seen the vibrations of the State as she trembled in sympathy with her would be champion, (renewed merriment.) But let mne resume the investigation of this quiestion and let, us see', how much real cause there exists for this alarm for the people's interests. I will read See. 10 of art. 1, of the United States' Constitutior. "No State shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confed.erationi, grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money, emnit bills of credit, mnake anything but gold and silver cciln a tender in payment of debts, pass any bill of attainder, ex.post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of iiotitity." There is another clatuse of that instrument to which I call the attention of the gentlenma~n, (Mr. REE;IrELIN.) The first section of the third article says: -'The judicial power cf the United States, shall be vested il one Supreryie Court,and in such interior Co,,rts as theCongress may, from time to time, ordain and establish." The second section, reads: "Thae judicial power shall extend to all cases in lalw and equity, arising Slider thifs C:onstit~ution, the laws of the Unlited,States, antd treaties made. or w hich shall be mlade, undler their authority; to all cases affecting amblassadors, other pulbitc mintisters, anal consuls, to all cases or admiraltv and mar itime jurisdi~ction, to controversies to which the United 8 tates shall be a party; tot controversTies between two or more ,States; between a State and citizens of ano,ther State, be. twseen cit~izenls of differentt States; between citizens of the samle State claiming lands under grranlts of different Statesand between a State, or the citizens thereof, and foreign States, citizens or subjects. 254 OHIO CONVENITON DEBATES- SATIurAY, JANU,ARY 4. the Supreme Court has decided unconstitutional, and the Supremie Court may change its decision." Mr. REEM ELIN.'And it would be so if the Judges of that Court were elected by the people. Mr. KEINNON. Aye, but you must demand another Constitution before you can elect the members of that beich. I know that by skillful management and by the intervention of caucuses and conventions thle Supreme Coutrt of Ohio may, by possibility, be so constituted as to decide in favor of the repealability of charters, on the ground that thliev are not contracts. But suppose this thing effeetel, what then? You would presently find that the Supreme Court of Ohio, however mucli it might harmonize w ith your ownvl views of the question, is not final-you would find that if the individual members of a corporation, -whose charter might be repealed, chose to appeal to tlcho Supreme Court of the Uni ted States, that high an d final tribunal would de clar e tha t a char ter was a cortraict. and wo uld set aside the d eci sion of your State C ourt, as in contravention of the tenth section of t he first article of the Constitution of the United S tates. Thus the decision of doure State Court might come to be of no more validity than that of a Justice of the Peace. Fo r the sake of illustration let us suppose a case thus made up between the State, the Legislature of which h a s repealed the charter o f a corporation, by virtue of this propos e d Constitutional preov ision, on the one nhand, and the members-of that Corporation who appeal from the decision of the Supreme Court of Ohio that a charter is not a contract and therefore repealable, o n the other Let us f ollow the case to the Supreml e Cou rt of the Ucnited States, for I confess to an inclin atioag to see what is to become of it. If I ws ere to select coulnsel on behalf of the State, I should reta in th e gentleman from Trumbuall, (Mr. RA.'NEY,) and the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MTTCIHELL,) and s ir, in order tha t "public opinion" might be fully, if not fairly rep resented there, I would take along the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. R::EMELIN.) [Laudrlihter.] Well sir, these distioonguished gentlemnh wotld(t p resen t a brief containing their authorities pertinent to the case, in accordance u ith the rul e s of the Court.. Whl o shall mak e the opening speech? Now I do think that this honor should be conferred upon the gentleman front Hamilton. [Laughter.] als i ll he permiit me o ae to make his opening speech upon th i s oc(casione for hioit? Mr. REEMELIN. I could not entrust you with that service. [Much laughter.] Mr. KENNON. Well then we will pass over that interesling, and in that hall, unique performance. We will let the gentlem-ani from Trumbull make the first speech. What will he say? Here is the Supremne Court room-a small Hall, is the one in which the Judges sit, no noise, no mere harangues, all is comparaitively still-all the arguments are carried on in a conversational tone. No appeals to thle feelines, of the court or the prejudices of the people, findd a ilace hereall is quiet, solid and earnest argument. I: can distinctly see the gentleman from Trumbull, as he rises to address that august tribunal, (great merrimnent.) He says, among other-things, "Here may it please the court, ill opposition to the positionls I have assulmed, is the decision and opiniols of Chief Justice M{arshall. He wvas a great sophist-he was a greater federalist- (renewed laughter,) but he is dead. In the early history of this governament, a wise ceffrt was made to confer as little power upon the federal governmrrent~ as possible, and to reserve more to the several states, but Mtr. Malrshall exerted himself, with other federalists, to concentrate power in the hands of the General Governmlent, and to leave as little as possible, with the sovereign states. Chief Justice Marshall,nmay it please the court, has always decided cases with reference to the repealability of charterswrong," (laughter.) But, Mr. President, there have been other Justices, who have decided that charters are contracts within the meaning of the Constitution-Justices who were appointed by General Jackson. Here are Woodbury and others, every Judge on the blench coming froom the dembocratic par ty, with onte exception. And I wish to hea r what more the genitleman from Trumbull has to say; he proceeds: "May it please the coutrt, I have always been a democrat, and it has alway s been my opiion, notwithl canding the unifrnl decision of th e Supremane Court, that acts of incorporation ar e not contracts. I know that this court has c i lways, a nd after full and solemn argument, decided tlh other way, but I now desire voil to reverse this decision-t1ot upo n any legal authority, for I hav e been unable to produce anyupoF no authority save one, auid that is the declaration of 108 very intelligent men in the state of Ohiot, conv-,enied in Columbus and afterwards in Cincinnati in the year 1850, for the purpose of amending the Constitution of that state. That body of wise men declared that charters were not contracts, and that the Legislature of Ohio, might repeal all charters, whenever granted, and without compensation being made for the loss of property consequent upon such reposal." But sir, I cannot follow the ingenious gentleman from Trumbull, through his entire argumene t-we will suppose it continues iii the same convincing c ourse of demonstration, (laughter.) After he concludes, we would listen to the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL.) He would mnake a strong argument, (renewed merriment.) The first authority he would produce, would be a copy of Jefferson's letters! (great laughter.) lie too would review the "Dartmouth College ca se' and be terribly severe upon Chief Justice Marshall whom lie would hold up to the " scorn and contempt" of all admirers of " the glorious system of common law" principles and precedents. Well, and what w ould the result or al this be? Why, Sir, the Supreme C ourt of fhe United States would declarei that the Corstitutitn of Ohio was unconstitutional, and reaffirm Its decision that a n actf incorporation is a cont r act. What thens-for it would not do to stop so important a matter here. Those three gentlemen would return home and tell the peo ple of Ohio that the Supreme court had decided this question wrong, and tell thenm th,y were the proper judges in the case. The gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. REEMEI.iN,] might propose to nullify. A few citi zenis might be found to side with the gentleman, but the great majority of the people-composed of two ce!sses, the one believing the Supreme Court of the United States had decided right, the other who, although they might consider the decision wrong, yet recog niised that court as the highest, the final and tlhe only competent tribunal to decide this question, and all ques. tions arising under the Constitution, and therefore its decisions binding upon them as loyal citizens, would refuse to participate in or countenance, any further efforts to carry outanl unconstitutional provision of the organic law. They would say " to be sure the mem bers ofthe Convention of 185-1)-, were great enel, but the Judges of the Supreme Court of the United States who have had this whole questionl repeatedly argued before them anld have unliformly decided that charters are contracts, are, as likely to be right as the members of our Stale Convention —Wanda little mlore so." (Laughter.) I 25.5 OHIO CONV/GNTION DEBATES-MON-DAY, JANURRY 6. Mr. THOMPSON of Stark, presented a petition , from J. T. Firestone, and sixty-five other citizens of Stark county, on the sane sueject. Mr. GREEN of Ross, presented a petition from Andrew J. Gregg, and ninlety other citizens of the county of Ross, on thie same subject-also the petition of Hannah Murphy, and seventy-one other citizens of the same county, on the same subject. GiL HAWKINS submitted tie following. Res olve d, Th at the printer of this Convention, be and he is hereby instructed to procure from the Secretary of State,a cer tified copy of the returns oftthe Ohio census. hereto,fore called for, and that he print copies thereof for the use of the Con vention., MAr. LOUDON moved to fill the blank in the Reso l ution with the words "one thousan)d," which was agreed to. The question then being on the adop tion of the reso lut ion, it was agreed to. On motion of CMr. SAWYER, the Convention a gain took up the report of the committee obl the Legislative Department, wihc th t e pending amendmenits. The questi on being on the rnotioti of Mr. HARD to reconsider the vote taken by whic h the c onvention re lfused to strike out all after the wor d "State" in the following proposition. ,.Provided that all acts of incorporation and acts grant ing franchises, may be ualtered, amended, revoked or repealed by the General Assembly of this State upon such terms and conditions pertaining to the inviolability of privat e propeity as is provided in other ctases il th is Constitutioon. a Mr. S MINTH of Wyandot, mov ed the previous ques tion. The question then being "shall the main question be now put. Mr. STANTON npsved a call of tRhe coGeveHtion tn aton bieng ordered, Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnett of PrebleR Graham, Harlan, Hitchock of Geaui ga, Ki o g, Larsh, Larwill, Lidey, Norris, Perkins, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Stebbins, S tilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Swan land Vance of Champaign, were found absent. Messrs. Larwill, Stickney and Vance of Chamnpaign were severally exeus-.d. Mr. McCORMlICK moved that the d oors be close d, and that tie Sergeanit-at-Armns be dispatched after the absentees, which was agretd to. Mr. LAWRENCE mrroved that all further proceed ings under the call be dispensed with, on which motion Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded the ye:ns and nays, and being or dered, resulted, yeas 35, nays 54 as follows YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Case of Hocking, Case o: Lic;klng, Clark,Cook, Gray,Groesbecti, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hunt, Johnson, Jones. King, Kiykwood, Law rence, Leech, Manoin. Orton, Ranney, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Stanbery, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Smelby, Townshejd, Vance of Butler, Warren, Wilson, Worthington and Presidenit-35. NAYs->Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blicketisderfer, Brown of Athens, Prown of Carroll, Cahill, Chaimabers, Charney, Collings, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance. Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Kennon, -Leadbetter, Loudon, Mason Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, MlcCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Patterson. Peck, Quigley, Reemeliii, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Hihl,land. Smith of Warren, Smith of Wy. andot, Stanton, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Way, Williams and Woodbury-54. So the motion to dispense with all further proceeding~s unider the call was disagreed to Mr. MITCHELL moaved to dispense with all fulr thor proceedinlgs under the call, which was agreed to. The question then beingf "shtall the main question be now put.' Mvr, LAW7RENCE demnarded the yeas and nays, and beingr ordered, resulted yeas 16, nlays 70, as follow s. Yv. sSMessrs. Blair, Clark, Farr, Gillett, Greene of De. fiance, Hootman, I4in~g, L~eadbettex, Loudon. Patterson, Sawyer, Smith of Wyandot, Struble, Swift, Wi.sonl,-and Presi! de n t —l1.. The gentleman from Hamilton rMr. REEgMELIN,] says that this is a "Revolutionary body." I deny that it is, save in one sense. it has met for the purpose of chang ing tihe frame-work of our State Governient, it is true, but sir, for a change of Goverinmeut ACCORDING TO LAW. A law called this Convention, a law necessarily in accordance with the laws of the Union. You have no right-no power-to etigraft a provision uponi this instrument which conflicts with a provision of the Constitution of the Union —the Supreme Court of the United States is the final tributnal to decide upon all cases arisi)g under that Constitution, and so long as that Court holds its present decided position upon this question: A provision in this Constitution proposing to conifer upon the Legislature power to repeal all charters, will be a nullity. Thile Legislature have precisely the same power now which it would have if this clause was put into the new Constitution. I venture the prophecy, that the Supreme Court of the United States will hold its piesent position with regard to the repealability of charters, and no affirmance, by this Constitutioti, of a contrary doctrine, will change that po.ition. At the same time, I neither assail nor uphold thle correctness of that decision. I am not now discussing that ques- tion. I am speaking of certain corporations niow in 11 existence, and our right to conifer power on the Legislature to repeal them. I have no objections to give the power as to all future corporations. ThIs can be done without interfering with any provision of the Constitution of the United States. Mr. SMITH, of Wyandot. said he was averse to anything like repressing debate when debate was necessary; but he thought every delegate on the floor would agree with himn that this question had been fully and amply debated, He was therefore disposed to insist upon his privilege of calliig for the previous question with the sole view of expediting business.' I Sir. SMITH then nioved the previous ques'lon upon the motion to re-consider the vote by which the Conventioti refused to strike out the latter clause of the propositioul of Mr. VANCE of Butler. Pending which, On motion, the Convention adjourned EIGHTIETH DAY. MONDAY, Jan. 6. 9 o'clock A.M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by Rev. Mr. (erhart. Mr. HAWKINS presented a petition from B. F. Allen aild sixty-five other citizens, of Morgan county, praying that a clause be inserted ill the New Conistitu tioii prohibiting tile Legislature from passing any law legalizing traffic ir. spirituous liquors-also the petitioli ol Jesse Abbot, and tnineteen other citizens of the same county, on the same subject. Mr. HOOTMAN presented a petition from L.D. Doolittle, and thirty-five other citizens of Ashland counlty, on the same subject. Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from Ebenezer R. Watts, adid tweinty-four other citizens of Fayette county, (.n the same subject. Mr. PECK presented a petitioa from Thomas Michener, and sevenity-four other citizens of Belmont coun ty, on the same subject-also a petition from Wam. D. Waters, and forty-eight other citizens of Belmont county, onl the same subject. Mr. LOUDON presen,ed o petition from Amanda Humplireys, and two hundred and eighty two oth er females of Brown county, on the same subject-also the petition oi N A. Devore, and one hundred and ninety-four other citizens of the same county, on the same subject. I I I i II I i a a 2., 6 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- MONDAY, JANUARY 6. NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, n Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chambers, (haney, eollings, Cook, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewait, Ewing, Florence,Forbes, ] Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamiltoni, Hard, I Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcockli of Cuyahoga, Holmes, Holt- Horton, Humphrevil e, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Ken, non, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Leech, Manon, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Orton, Otis, Peck, t Quigley, Rannev, Reemelin, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Scott t of Augleize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, t Stanberl, Stanton Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshei,', Vance of Butler, Warren, Williams, Wood- bury and Worthington-70. So the demand for the previous question was not sustained. The question then being on the motion of Mt. HARD, to reconsider the vote taken, by which the' Convention refused to strike out all after the word "State," in the proposition of Mr. VANcE of But!er. 1 Mr. GROES BECK said he desired to say some- 1 thing more onthe subject now under consideration, before it was discussed by the Convention. He believedfromn what had been said in debate and in private conversation, he had not been entirely understood, and it was due to himself, and the subject, that he should explain himself further. S What is the question now before the Convention?' It is not a question relating to corporations, whose i charters may hereafter be granted, for there is hardly a difference of opinion among delegates, as to the 1 propriety of conferring upon the legislature the pow - er to repeal the charters of such corporations. The 4 question is not whether the State of Ohio hasthe - right, and that too without regard to consequences, to take the life of a corporate body, which in any particular, has violated the terms of its charter, f or there is nothing clearer than that right. But the question is, what shall be the rule and what the principle upon which the State may exercise the power of taking the charter of every incorporation within her borders, where there has been no violation of the charter-no departure from the rule of action, pre- scribed by the law which created it? I repeat my statement of the question, that there may be a clear understanding at the outset-suppose the legislature utters no complaint-prefers no charge of violated terms, can the legislature take such a charter, and if so, what shall be the terms of adjustment upon which it shall exercise the right of repeal. I am free to say that it is my opinion, and that it has been ever since I first exanmined the question, that the State had the right to repeal every bridge charter, every turnpike charter, every railroad charter, every church charter, every college charter, in a word sit, every charter of every description. But what is the power in the State, that sways this potent sceptre over the existence of all incorporations, and this too upon the admission that they have violated neither the letter nor the spirit of their charters? What shall we name that power? It is a great power and well worthy of a nanie. Before I proceed to name it, let us first inquire, what is a charter? This inquiry may throw somne light uipon the subject. I shall not here call it a "contract." As I understand the course and history of the decision upon the subject, it was not until the "Dartmouth College case," that acts of incorporation were held to be "contracts." Previous to that time, through hundreds of years of recorded legal decisions-for there is no law older than that relatinge to corporations-it had never been held that charters were "contracts." In the first place, a charter is not a"{ contract," be cause a grant of an act of incorporation is not made in the form of a contract-it lacks the incidents and distinguiishing features of a contract. The State, in gibing it, does not observe the samoe formalities, as whe n she purposely viakes a contract. S econdly, I wonld not call it a contract, because of the settled practice of those who hold charters. Whenever corporators desire to dissolve their artifi cial connexion, whenever, for any reason, they deem it to their interest to cease the use of their franchise, and no longer to pursu hethe business for the prosecution of which they were incorporat edthehey do so with out consultation with the State. If their charter were really a contract, and so regarded by them, seriously and ill earnest, they would not undertake to throw it up without the consent of the other party —the Statewhose release must (were it a contract) be granted. Take antother view of this question. Suppose a charter granted by the legislature and accepted. No money was paid for it. Tfhe consideration was, that they to whorm it was given, would do what it authorised, for a certain fixed time. Thev who hold it, some time afterwards discover, that the business in which they are embarked, is likely to result disastrously. lThey hold a meeting and resolve to put a stop to their undertaking, and to dissolve the corporation. They do so. Now if their charter was a "contract" the State of Ohio would have a right to compel a specific performance of what they had undertaken to do, (for, be it observed, moley is not paid for charters, and the only consideration, is the service to be performed by those who accept them,) or the State would have a good and valid clainl for damages, oil the ground of a breach of contract. Can she compel performance or recover damages in such a case? I think not; and yet, why not, if it be a contract? Il many other ways, Mr. President, I could show that a charter is not a real, actual contract. Then what is it? Is it a law, in the ordinary acceptation of that term? In the early history of incorporations, it was never the practice to give them in the form of law. They were grants from the Executive power to the subject. How is it now? Let us look at the constitution of our own State. We find that instrument divided into distinct articles, severally embracing the different subjects and divisions of the organic law. There is one article in the constitution conferrinig upon the legislative department all law-nmaking power. In turning over the pages of that instrument we find, in another article-an article entitled " the bill of rights," a distinct section upon the subject of charters, or acts of inicorporation. I will here remark, that I do not say thlmt an act of incorporation is not a law, but merely call attention to the fact that in our constitution this subject is entirely separated from the article on the lawmaking power. It seems as though the framers of our constitution might have considered a charter as som-iething different front laws generally. But I do not care to dwell uponl this point, and only stop to throw out this suggestion because I find this authority for so doing. To return to the question I have proposed, what is a charter? I decline to call it a "contract," I will not say whether it is a law or whether it is not a law, with in the ordinary sense of that term. Gentlemnell, by the authority of the Constitution itself I shall name this thiing-s! name it neither la charter," a " contract" or Aa law — but I shall name it A LETTER OF INCORPORATION. Thlat is its corastitutional designation. WVhat is the language of that inistrument? —and it is very proper to swell for a moment upon this point, for this is the first time that the tall g uage of the Constitutlion hias breen adverted 0 to ill this Conlvention,. anid some of tile msembers seem to regards a1l charters as unconstitutional —what are the termns? Section twenty seven of the Bill of Rights is as follows:- 257 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JA,NUARY 6. is nothing to repeal or revoke. A charter granted un tier such circumstances is a nullity ab initio for itsojuI constitutional ity. Mr. STPANBERY. By what authotitv can the Legislature repeal a charter which h'as been violated? IMr. GROESBECK. I said that the State could take the charter of a"y corporation which had violated its terms, without rega r d to thei consequences. Mr. SRIANBERY. By the Legislature's re pealing i ts charter? Mr. GROESBECK. There isanother way. Mr. STANBERY. How? Mr. GROESBECK. By a writ of quo w,7rranto. And id tilat remedy should, fear any reason, ptrove intsuf ficient, then the Legislature has the power to devise a better and more summary remnedy. The whole case is in the hands of the people themselves, and in the event of the abuse of a frani'tlise, the people have as effectual a remedy in the courts. as if the Legislature possessed the constitutional right of unqualified repeal. I see in the judicial deparatmnent, especially whien the judges shall be elective, as perfect a remsedy as could be confer red upon the legislative. Mr. REE,MELIN. And what will you do when you come to the. Supreme Court? Mr. GROESBECK,. There is no difficulty with re gard to the decision of that court. Mr. REEMELIN. The Judges of that court have never decided agaitnst corporations. Mr. GROESBECK. They have never refused to decide so, anid will not hesitate, when the charter has been violated. But how shall a charter be taken when the terms of incorporation have not been violated? Here again we must recur to the meaning of a "letter of inCorpo tion,", and I will remark in passing that in 1802, when the Constitutioni of this State was framed, the de cision of the Supreme Court of the United States, de clarinig a charter a contract, had not been made, and in seeking to ascertain what is meant by a "letter of in corporation," as referred to in our present constitution, it mnav be proper to t-lke into consideration the state of the law, with regard to charters, a half century since, that is in l1802. At that time, what we call a "charter" was considered as a franchise, a right to prosecute a particular business il a particular manner prescribed in the letter of incorporatomn. It was so treated and held in all the courts-it was so recognized every where. What is a franchise? It is a privilege-a right something in the niature of property, not tangible anid real, you canllOt tOu]Clh it, still it partakes of the nature of property, inasmuchi as it may be of value. Every action of "trespass on the.ease" brought by u railroad. a turfpike or a bridge company, proceeds,- upon the recognition of Some quality of property'.i the charter of incorporation. For hundreds of years past, and every day of our own tine, every action of,trespass on the case" bears with it the recognition of something like property in the franchise that has been conferred. Now, I declare it to be the law of that Court, with whose decisions we have been threatened-I mean the Supreme Court of the United States-that there is no difficulty inl taking ally charter in Ohio. Whenl the case reported in sixth Howard was brought before the :Court, Webster and Cellaruer argued at length that a charter was a conltract, an~d presented atnd urged the weight of the former decision to that effect. After a full argumnent, and after deliberate conlsidleration. the Court, as it were, overleaped the "sDartmnouth College case," and took up the old doctrine that a charter was8 a''franlchise."' In that way it asserted the right to take a charter withlout the violation of law. This de "That every association of persons, when regularly form ed within this State, and having given themselves a nane, may, on application to the legislature, be enttited to receive L.ETTERS OF INcoIrI.Ot.,lo, to enable them to hold estates, real and personal, for support of their schools, academies, colleges, universities, arnd for other purposes." In 1832, when the people met in Cor. vention by their delegites at Chlleolithe, they had just as much Dower as we ioW live, They assembled to frame al organic law for e State. They did so, and made this coustitltion-aud by no implicatioin, by no forced con struction, but iti I)liin, direct and express language, they gave to thlei L-gislature tile authority to grant "letters of incorioration" iii certain ilistalces-for certain purposes thiereini named. I will mike a further remark upon this point-no right of repeal accompanies this authority, thus con ferred upoii the Legislature. The old Constitution is silent oni this subject. What sort of a " letter of incorporation" is consti titional? I think I mnay safely say, one that incorpo ates a usiness that might be legally carried on with out it. A railroad charter, a plankroad charter, a bridge charter, a turnpike charter, a church charter, or the charter of a charitable institution, is constitu tional; and I presume that there is no imemnber here who will affirm a contrary doctrine, It certainly is not going too far to say, that the Constitution au thorizes the incorporation of an association of iidi viduals for the prosecution of any lawful business any business they might do in their individual capa city. Mr. HUIMPHREVILLE. Does it authorize bank charters? Mr. GROESBECK. I do not contend that a bank charter is colstitutional, but I will speak of that hereafter. I only go as far as I stated-I did not class the incorporations named by the gentleman from Medina [Mr. HumaiPrEVILLE,j among those which I designated as formed for the prosecution of a business lawful and proper to be carried on without a charter, and, therefore, such as might be constitutionally incorporated. And now we come to the question, what are the rights of incorporations with reference to the propositionl now before the Conventiol? They are constitutional in the cases I have named. Can the State take back their letters? There is a right by which she can. Knowing, now, what incorporation is, I p roceed to name that right-i call it the right of E tminent Domain-the right to control and take every thing within the State for the public use or good. The State has this right, and in the view I take of it, it matters not whether you call a "'-letter of incorporartion" a contract, a charter, or a law. It is a thinga sonmethiing which the State may thus take, in every instance, by this power, but by no other Let it be observed, that if there has been a violation of the terms and conditions of a letter of incorporation, then thecase is different —the power above named need not be invoked-and there is no need of any special authority to take the life of that corporation. There is a clear right on the part of the State to break it up by judicial proceedings. But I argue the question upon the supposition —upon the open admission of the supporters of the peuding proposition-that there is no violation of the terms of the charter. The only questioii, I repeat, is as to the right of repeal in such cases. Mr. REEMEL,IN. How is it, when the Legislature has exceeded its powers and so conferred undue privileges upon corporations? Mfr. C;ReESBECK. Then the act of incorporation is unconstitutional-the charter is flatly void, and it is idle to suppose such a case a subject for repeal. There i i i 259 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 6. d- h! Iu-the stone and gravel. w hich he has laid upon s that right of way are worth nothing to him —his lar bof, his hisnion aidhisi tnaterials have mixed with the i franchise, anol when that is destroyed, his property is also destroyed. Whait then is the right and honest - course to be pursuied? Every member will under stand that thl(ere is, iii the cases I am supposing, no s fault, no misconduct on the part of those who manage r the franchise. Certainly it is right, then, that the f corporators should be comupensated for the loss of their s property caused bythe taking of their charter. Do I . put extreme cases? I put the cases of Railroads, iA Plankroads and Turnpikes. These constitute the nmajority, ninle-tenthsl of the corporations in the State. Thousands upon thousands of our citizens are econ nected with them, and when I plead that their actual I property thus invested, may not be confiscated, I r plead in the name and behalf of no inconsiderable t portion of our people. Let us now turn to the case of a Church charter1 I claim no damages other than nominal damages' the case of an Orplan Asylumi, or other benevolent institution, I claim no serious damages when such t corporations are dissolved, because the corporators f can still pursue the objects and carry out the designs of those institutions, as inrdividuals, and wvithloutlets ters of incorporation. We come to thie case of bank charters-supposing them to be constitutional-what will be an equitable rule of compensation when such associations are dis ibanded by the State? Let me repeat, we are suppos itg they have not violated their charters. It is not with banks as with rail Road, plank road and turnpike Companies. The property of Balnk stockholders is not mixed in w%ith their franchise so that it cannot ibe separated. The property, in this ease, is in morley and real estate. flere I would not allow more thail noninal damages. Some member has remarked that a Bank charter might enable the stockholders to make twventy per cent. per ainnuni, upon their capital invested, for twenty years, and therefore they would s uffe r damages to tha t amounet i f the ir charter we rea repealed. Butr the m itiht lose to-ent per ceont, answer. This is all a contiin.,enicy-ani uncertainty and no such rule can be app lied Let us test this doctrine still further. We will suppose the case of a Rail Road Company coming before the Legislature and lasking for a charter. It is granted. In thie construictioLn of their road, the. company find it necessary to appropriate the entire 'right of way of a short turnpike. What if., the rulet of damages? They must and in all like cases, do ay for every dollar's worth of property they take. In that case, tle State, indirectly through its agent the Rail Road Company, is taking the property of an incorporation, and it makes fair and just compensation for that property. Is it anv thing more than fair and just that the State should pay for the prolperty of a corporation, when she takes it DlItEcTrLY? Reniember genitleinen, that I am speaking of cases where there has been no violation of the charter, because in such cases it may be forfeited, without looking to the consequences. But we are told that the amount stud manner of compensation in the case of repealed c lmriers, should be left to the Legislature, and thaat nothing should be. said on1 this subject in the Constitution. We ate also told, that these incorporators h)aye, for the most part. made the amo unt of their ir~vesimnt'lttwo or three times over, and are not entitled to com~pensationl wheni hey are so divested of th~eir franlchises, as that the corporate property becomes valueless. I ~egard Iblis latter deelaration1, as a bold assumption. But I pas onl. I put eision was made by DANIELS-as I think, a good Judge WOODBURY re-affirmed this doctrine, shrinlkinlg, it i true, in the enunciation of somnepoints. But DANis. L affirmed it broadly and boldly,overleap)ing,as I have said the often quoted "Dartmoutlh College case," and as serting that a charter was a franchise, and being a fran. chise, it m ight be t aken fo r the public use or good. And now I p ut it to the wit wo any m embe r of ortlpii Convention to suggest any other method by which our old charters still existing, can be taken? Not one o the gentlemen who maintained the opposite side of this question, has shown us how else they canl be talei And they cannot. There is no other way. They may search anyv library-any books, and thev will get in light. Declate the doctrine on any other principle, and you will fail. J affirm fearlessly that this is the only efficient znethod for divesting corporations, now in existence, of their charters, where no right of repeal has been reserved al the time of the grant, and where there has been io violation of its terms. Try any other method, and you will be defeated. We comne now to the eqtity of the rule,. Take the case of a plank road, a turnpike, ora railroad charter, what would the ruler require? It would require, if you take charters, the conditions of which have not been violated, that you should mnake the parties whole —you should compensate them for the amount of property you talke or destroy in so doinlg. The gentleman from Knox (Mr. MITCHE:LL,) says that if the Legislature repeals the charter of a Rail road, a Plankroad or a Turnpike Comypaniy, they could still use their property as before, alld, therefore, would be entitled to no damages. Not so. You divest the incorpora tions I have narned, of their charters, and t hey have no right to use eithe r of those kinds of propertv as before. They canno t us e a Plankroad anl charsge a nd collec t tolls of those who pass thereonl, the y cannot use a Railroad, run a,ocompotnive with freight'and passenger trainsr and collect freight and passage money.'the land on which the road has -een constructed, ias codldeno-ed for the aus e o f the corporation and for n o other purpose. When the corpo r ation dies, it has no heirs, nor executors,. nor administrators. Kill the corporation, and the enter pr is e rust stop. If you can contrivse a netrorit the Legisl ature can-by wrhich t he corporators ca n use thei r Railroa h ad, their Plaikroad, their Turvnpike as before, an d wi th facility, tno dai a,e has been done -no compensation is due, and none will be allowed. But suppose, that no such method is devised, is it not an equitable rule, that the Legislature when it repeals an act of incorporation should emake trhe parties whole? Let us look at it. How are your Turnpikes and Plankroadsp and brid ue s and the like, bsubilt-of what ar e they built? A citize n takes an hundred or a thousand dollars from his pocket, the eariints of his harvest field, his shop or his st ore-and buys the right of way for a Turnlpike.. Bv his proper a',,ents he goes to the brook or quarry and gets the stone to l2y upon t hat, right of way, and thus is the road built. ow this i s still private property-as much now and in its present shape, as when the money was in his pocket and the store, in the quarry or the water course, and it is just as much entitled to the protection of law, as the property of any individual. He earned his money in an honest way. It is the fruit of his industry and frugality, and he has thus converted it into Turnpike road stock by the sanction and authority of the State of Ohio. You take awav his charter, and it is admitted that his right to do as before and collect tolls on that road is gone. The right of way is now valueless to 18 i I s r a i c r t i c 9 II c 8 259 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 6. this case. Four men,neighbors, have each an equal amount ofproperty, say a thousand dollars. One gets a charter arid erects a bridge across the river in his viciuity. Anothier invests his thousand dollars i a turn. pike which runs to his neighbor's bridge on eitherside. The third devotes his attention to the purchase of real estate, and becomnes a speculator in the lauds lying in the neighbor hood of the bridge and turnpike, aid enhaniced in value by them. The fourth, all being farmers, if you please, takes his thousand dollars and l o an s it out to his neighbors at teln per cent interest, taking mortgages uponi their homestead farms. We will suppose teii or any given niumber of years to e,lapse. At the end of that time, the bridge owner finds, that lie has realized a hanrds(one profit upo(l his investmetit. The man who built the turnpike bas also received reniune,ating dividends, the man who bought lands has also prospered, -and his purchases have proved a great speculation. Equaliy fortunate has lie been, who has loaned his nionee, and has bought in his neighbor's property at forced sale, for non-payment of his loans. All four have done well. We throw around the property of the land owners and of the money lender the protection of the law. They cannot be divested of that property even for public use, without a full compensation. Why inot be equally just to to the two men who invested their property in thie turnpike and the bridge? Un lertakiugs, both of them, equally lawful, and, perhaps, more laudable than the besines of the land speculator and the money lender. I propose to make no distinctions between the cases of these four men. I express no preference; but I say that thie first two, (the i owners of the turnpike anid the bridge,, have iS full claims for constitutional protection of their pro,erty, as the two lst. And, Sir, I knzowthatI anm surround e d by men, who fully appreciate the investment of capital for the construction of turnpikes and roads generally, in the newer portions of the Slate; and by men who knlow the fact, that twenty years ago, the man who would thus invest his money, was a public benefactor indeed. Several voices interruptitg rc' True; that is true."] Mr. GROESBECK. And there are thousands of ctitizens in the State, who have thus itnvested their property. But I am still met with the ref,-ark, that these corporators, should trust entirely to the Legislature; that we entrust it with our lives, our liberties, our property. I do not trust my life to the Legislature; that body has not the power by a unanimous vote, to t,ke nyn life. nor to deprive ine of my liberty. Lookt at the safe-guards, which the constitution has thrown around the life andl liberty of every citizen. Neither does the citizen trust his property to the action of the Legislais ture. Gentleieti will remember the additional safeguards we threw around private properly, but the other day, in the section providing that no private property should be taken for public use, without compensation first made in lmonley; and this, too, without regard to any benefits conferred upon any other property of the owner. I favored this proposition. I thought it was ,right. And so with ether of the citizeni's interests. -Upon deliberate reflection, therefore, it does seem to -ine, that the doctrine I have urged, is true, just and poi)tit. I propose, where tile Legislature exercises the .rght of a'epeal, in cases where there hlas been no vriola ~ia}n ofthle charter, and where the property invested, is so mixted wtiih the franlchise, that the latter cannlot be resumed~by,the State, without caustog a less, that the Stat shall make conipetisation for the loss. I propose, simply and only, to recognize the same principle here, w e tav e appli ed ro o th er property. Allow me, Mr. 2?res~idenet, to attempt a simple illus tration.,ww c d.,'..no,,sr ocrms to mie 81lppOSO (holding u~p a glass of water) the water in this glass to reprss sent the franchise. The citizen comes forward, by authority of the S'ate, who hands him the water, and pours his brandy into the water. The two fluids, the property and the franchise, mix. You cannot sepati rate them; and when you take the water, you must take the brandy. If the State takes the water, let her pay for th e brand y. Let he fr pay for the mixture. We call him a mean man who y ill not pay for hi s Arog. So, Mr. President, twhere the prope rt y r uns into the franchise, given by the State, and cannot be separated, let the rights of property be held sacredlet the citizen be compensated for his propertv, if taken-unless, I a,aiin repeat, the charter has b-een violated. There is yet much m-ore which should be said, but I have alheady consumed too much of the time of the Convention. I thank gentlemen for the patient hearing they have given rie. Mr. STANBERY. I have felt that I could not remain silent under the doctrines advanced here. I apprehern.d that these doctrines will lead further than has been supposed. For one, I do not acquiesce in them; and my purpose now is, to endeavor to set the matter ill its true light. Il the first place, what is the question? It is with reference to striking out a part of the proviso of the thirt,y-fifth section. I will read the section, so that we may gather the force of the proviso: "The General Assem-fbly shall have ino power to pass retroactive laws, nor la ws, impairing the obligationis of contracts provided, that all acts of incorporation, an,d all acts granting franchises, and the privileges and franchises of ally incorporated company, may be altered, amended, revolked, or repealed by the General Assembly of this State, upon such terms and conditions pertaining to the inviolability of private property, as is provided in other cases in this Constitutiona. We have once put this proviso into the Constitution; and the present motion is to reconsider the vote for the purpose of striking out a portion of it, so as to allow it to remain a sim, ple declaration, that the General Assembly niay alter, amend, revoke or repeal any charter of incorporation, or any franchise granted to an incorporated company, absolutely, u~nconlditionally. The question is, whether this shall be done; or whether a charter or franchise shall be taken on the same terms and conditions as other property. It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of this question. I know it is a common trick with speakers to make a question appear to be very importanit. There is n1o such n-ecessity here: for every man that looks at this proviso wNvill see the importance of it to every citizen of the State of Ohio. There is perhaps not a single lisle to be put into the Constitution, or left out, that seems to strike so homne to the people as this very clause. And now, sir, lf4t us attermipt to settle some clear view about this mnatter. We are not dealing now witlh an abstraction. We are proposing that -which is to become all active rule, that, one way or other, is to affect the interests of every man in Ohio. Then let us go about it understandingly. What is the first thing proposed in this proviso It is, that the General Asseimblv shall have absolute control over corporate rights: so that at ally timte, and under any circlumstanlces, they may take anj charter, or any franctise il the State, without compensation, and without any reason for so doing, but simply uponl the motion and will of the Legislaturo~ And gentleme~n say, Why not do this? Gentlemen say, We have great respect for private rights; but a franchise is not property. It is nlo private right. It j is a xnvre public privilege, committed to some indi 11.co OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TONDAY, JAaNt;ARY 6. viduals for a time, and to bh revoked at the pleasure of the donor. A fr a n I - c~h;oise ~is, n property! This-,! belev, ws first heardi in this debate from the gentleman from Miami, (Mr. DoRsaY,) who, I am sorry to perceive, is not in his place; and it was reiterated by the gentle man from Trumbull, (Mr. PRANNmE,) who, I am happy to see isin his seat. A doleor of medicine and a doc tor of laws, have told us there is no property iii a franchise. A.- far a'i the gentleman from M)iami,; is concerned, I shall have no controversy with him about the mean ing of a francbise. I suppose his ieading has been in a different direction. i take him to be a verv lea rn ed man; but, instead of CoKF and BLACKSTO.N, I sup pose he has been reading SYDENuHAl and B30FetngnAVEw. I shall enter into no contest with him, because ihe would siot be apt to know the law. I suppose lie kenows no more about a franchise, than I do about a febrifuge. And there is another reason why I will not enter into a contest with the gentleman from Miami. I am not at all afraid of a lawyer. I am accustomed t~o,contes,ts with lawyers; and we give and take hard knocks, anid forg'et them, as soon as they are passed. But it is not quite so with our friends, the physicians. You recollect the words of the play, "The Lord d e liver me from an angry physician: for, truly, his wrath is more fatal than his recipes." [Laughter.] Butsa doctor of laws has told us, that a franchise is not property. Whv, sir, the very first lesson iii law, wicth I give to a student, wheis he comes into niy of,5ce, is, that a frainchise is property, aud it is taught oi the very h-orn-books of the law. The first great di visioix is into property real, and property perso nal We then divide real property iiito lands, tenements, and hereditameniits. Aud hereditaments we divide into corporeal hereditameuts,-capable of being seen and handled, and incorporeal hereditaments, which cannot be seen. Amongst these iucorporeal hereditaments are classed rents, ways, commons, FRANciCe HISES. Mr. RANNEY, (in his seat.) Are lnot acts of in coirpiorationi iicluded? M,r. SQTANBERY. Most acts of incorporation give, a franchise - atid if they are not franchises, then eve Ty m-~an miay~ inicorpiorate himself; but, if it is a putblic thinlg, th,eni we miust have a statute, of the Legislature Sir, where are we going I. Where has the gentleman been all his life? Where are his books, that he has riot foind oCL that an act of iicorporation is a fra ht - chise 7-taee'r?i~asram hc,nn-etso h Mr. RANNEY (interposing.) I believe the gentle man intends to omeet what I have said: but he, c an't find it in Blackstone. I have seen the books. Mr, STANBERY. It mnust h~ave beena a long time,, a~go. iMro RANN EY. He can read, that a fraon ch ise is an incorporeal hereditament in this way: rights issuilig out of real property. Persons are of two kines, natural and artificial. Corporations are of the latter class. ,Mr. STANBEPY. I htave read all that. We, have niaturail i)ereois anii rt(ihit persons —very naturlal persoos L was going to say. [Some laughter.] Uinid1oatbtetily, we, hi arh ii b, e, s called corporations, Wae, we'tit that the~e e,, atis have franchi ses yeastetd to theet'i, andi ti~at tlaese franchises are cile ~t~ltpiae an utteLgltrewllnede iaeorpor.'al liereditaetnes. Does not the gentleman y~ im o h eeproeo rvt oa say that a Irauchise is not property? TPhat is his arga.teeoelemsuhw-h eiltr l~ti iment: an~d yet the law tells us that it is property —aun rdei eurdb h bi eeste,adtc incorporeal liereditament-a thing issuing oat of a thiigitwlbeoeterdttoydhitegrnt.H corporate or tangible. I will hold the gentleman to his sy,Ia iln oivs ymie ob.idti declaration. Hie shall niot shift his groandi, by sayingbrde,iyowilgvmeteaihrttotean that the act of iticorporation is not property. The py0o h adoiec akadt olc ol first q,aestioni to be answered is, What is a franchise? pntetae vrtebtaefracranl'gh For the question uiider consideration is, Shall we re- o ie fteLgsauewPlv eti uhr p eal acts of incorporation and their francl nhises? ot posations difrar from one another as d duchi a,,; the stars co mantestswith sde. Samnd wgave hardly y ho ae wfatser Ot at all, a nd others have ver r important raic i hises. Now to h r rke th is tmgrat ter plaiao-whairt is an iJicorpo re(n hse re sot hacntt? Lit et me pae t a few examples t,,'n show that it is pr operty. The first a and readaiest Is toyo. right of way —aod what is that i It is the rigse I.)( travel over tain other's la nd, by cer tai n fixed lines andi bouindJaries. TI'h e land over which the man travels un-, der this right, does not belong to lihiwi; but i h e simply owns the right of way. It is not the land itself, whilcht is3 tanglible and visible,-but a right to use the )anti In a particular rnanner —a sort of right or of property whviichi cannot be seen or haindied —a sort of rig4t. wMiYhea exists alonte in use. With thiwh right of wary it may be, your farada is worth teh a dollar s an acre; with out it, it is not worth five dollars an acre. No,,v we begin to see what it is. I assert that the riglit of way (exists with reference to the use of visible property. Perhaps it is eveiin ore valuable than the visible pro perty itself Another example, is the right to take wvat+er ov(r another mian's land. I am-nabout..tx) build a in.,11. I have a tract of land oni a stream above my nteigh,bor, where I can build my daim, and another tract'N,elow, imy neighbor, where I can b~uild my mill,-,arid if I can come over my nteighIbor's land with mv race, I -,-n mdake myi~ IIIill-property valuable. I. go to my nih bor anid -,ay to bit-, Sir, wvill you gra;tit mie f( a c,.in sider,-tion-iiot your land-'but -,'iimply the right to dig and use a mill-race over it'! He give'~ thre rig-ht for a consideration: and thereupon~ I go or ward and build my mill. Here I have an inecorpore.xl right, though I do not own a foot of the land. S;I,b sequienty m-iy neighbor fills Lip my ra~,. Aceotalin:_,, to the gentlem-an here from Trui-iiull, [Mr. Ra'-i.N~aY] helkas not touched my propert~y. But hlehas depri,,a', mie of that, without which my mill is not; -wort.4 -tt cent. When I com-plaini to him, my neighbor Ireplies, to me and says, I have not taken your m-iti nor youtr your damt. I have only deprived you of,-% right:ihich I have granted to you for a particular u-se of vouir property. With this, illus,tration-, let us look at that spe-cies, of; incorporeal hereditai-ients called a franchise: andi let; us take the case, so often taken, of a bridJge. Anid now I will take a fr-anchiise not given to a corpo)ra-tion, but. to ani individual. Take the case of a road,mh traveled, crossing a stream, which, nine-tenthis of theyear is impassable. The public convenience requires that the strea,m,,should be bridged. But the difelt is, that the job is beyon-d the county nmean,s, andl timState will nio; touc,h it; still the public nece~ssities re~ quire it. But near that point there happens to 1live a man, rich- beyoind his neig,hbors, who has a large surplus of money; and he is beset by his neighborsi to) bu~ild this tprid~,e. He consentts, and goes to- the Legislattire for a granit, without which lie cannot eolle-ct a dollar of tolls. The public are too much intere.stedl to allow an individual to have the control of this matter, and to establish a-.d collect tolls v-ithiout the,, initer-vent,.ion, of thec, Legislature. He goes-to the. Leg islatu~~~re,adpooe obidti rde i I 261 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 6. Mr. REEMELIN. Thle gentleman miight teachl more than I knowr about legal techn icali ti e s. M.-. STANBER.Y. N;ew le~t mei;, tell the gentleman that a franchise imay be graited to a single indiviidual. An individual ucay have a ferry. That is a fr-anchise. But the gentlemian from Trumnilull [ilr. IL~;x-11:~,] says a frayicboise is like apl oflice. A iial, le savs, ha is i ht n s ehis ri ghet i heis offce: a y et tre iegislature is allowed to repeal that franchise, by taking away ]list offce.'his, say thee gentleclman is a f aalcel casea public rlgh t granted to an iiida l, hich the public aav a t anytime take away.,ut al office is a public tnust. Cak it, be sold? tCa n it be prt rcha,osed'f Upobn the decease of the inycumtbent, does id go to his children? CaSo it b e levied upon by exeu.ltioi n? Not at all. None of these tiings upcrtpta i to ail office. Al office is simcplv a public trust. An offe r does Iolt act iD pursuance of atny busine ss of his ownl. te is d mer el y a servait-ain agent actie)g in a public eploiMTeiBt: annd, like all other agents, lie capi be disilisst0, But, mark this. He never can be dismissed wit hout comipensatioin. He maay be dlismissed, buit you mllust pay him for his service, up to the v-ery last moment of his term. There is the power of remlioval; but, along with that powrer, goes the great rule of riglith-igake tth e p rope r co mpe nsatiopn. I come of ow to another dom ctrine. Iy friend froim Hamilton last up (Mr. GRoES13C:ss,) ],as his way of getting o ve r this point. HI e sa ys a franclise is propert, -is a valuable thing -that it mu st obey exactly a.I the rights of private property. But still, it is th at sor t of property which th e Legislature nay take away bv repeal, in the assertion of the right of ivi ellilellt; dpomlaino. Thus, acctmrdiogs t o the gentlemd n fro.si Hamnilton, the State, cai take every chacter in exfstence tinder h the lriw. But, says the gentleman, it must be dorae upon compensation; alid therein i e differsfropm rtyany npon ills sid e of the itlouse. I apgree with the gentletan that i f dop e at all, it allst be done upon couipenfsatiohi-but I dbo ot agree with himE th at it cal be doniie simeply upoI an penisation. There must bo e soietlli-tg else beasisles cojimpeit sationi-somne reason, sE-ome inecessity-so),ime public iiecessity. The moment the gentleman puts the right to take corporate property or franchises Ip o31 the right of einent doain, he puts it the gitle grop tl, t iusd But he canlnot sustai the righlst of i ndiscridiuate repeal, even coupled 0 with com ripe nsation, upon the doctrine of eminent domain. The exercise of this right of eminenit domain proceeds upon fixed principles compensation is one-a public use or necessity is an other. The proposition- before us is to repeal or talkf at pleasure —and1 that too without comipensa,ition. lt has been said that onl this side of the chaymiber we go for anl inviolability of property vested in cor porationis beyond the degree of iniviolabtility whiclh attaches to propertv ",ested in individuals. This is a common error which should be set right. We go for no such thing. Never a nman of us has said that corporate property should be held nmore sacred than inidi,vidual property. But we say it is just as sacred, and the same thing; because it is private property —the property of a num-ber of natural personis vested in one artificial person.r And n1ow, I say, there iB not a corporation or aL franlchise inl the State of Ohio, but mnay be taken b' th~e State, precisely upV11 the samne termls and conditionls that the Stait~e may take ev-ery farm:n:ld evrery horse in Ohio. It. can take a franchie,lS julst as it can take private, indiw~dual property, and in no other way. For, if it is propert~y vested lawfully, it is just as solemnly inviolate as though vested in inldividuals, The rights of property, tiowever scecured, are still ity, I will build the bridge. The Legislature authorizes 1hin to do so; and this is his franchise. Well, hlie goes on- tas his ten thCusanId dollhar —-F,ewrha-ps all hlie has in the world-erects the bridge —does everything according to the terims of the graant-puts up his toll-gate, and begins to take toll. I supppose, that under his charter, he has the right to' take toll for twent,y years. I suppose, furtler, that, without any public lnecessity, or any reason at all, except the mere will of the Legislature, tbat franchise is repealed. And no injustice is done, according to the gentlenman fromi Trumbull, because no property is taken. He says to this man, Sir, theie is your bridge. We do iiot touch a stick of it. You iave it all, just as it was before. You can take it to pieces, if you please -remove it-n-make a barln of it, if you can. Use .our property in asy way. We have a holy horror of lnfringiug the rights of private property. But, you shall take no more tolls. We kniow we said to you,a that you miight take tolls for twenty years, which you said would be necessary to reiniburse you. But whlat matters that? We freely gave you the grant, and we freely take it. If you think your property is affecte,d, you labor under a mental hallucination, says the genitlemiian from Miami. You are just as riclh as before. True, you have not your ten thousand dollars. You hlave olily your abutments, pillars and timbers. The right to take toll was ouly imaginary. When we took that right, we did not take any property. This is exactly whiere these gentlenman land, when thev affirSi s that a franchise is not property. eMri DOthSEY, [in terposing.]. If the Stat e take the bridge, anid allow it to stanjd-to be passed over day by day, by the public-is it not t aken for the )ublic conve nience aad d benefit, and is not the State bothed to pay it? Mr. STANBERY. Yes, sir. 3Ir. DORISEY. So I say. Mr. STANBERY. Why, I supposed that was just the thling the gecntlemani did not sav. Mr. DORSE,Y. No, sir. /ir. STANBER~. Do you say it is unconstituticr-eal legislatioin, without tihe thin' is paid for.? Mr. DORSEY. I do.'T'iiiibers and all-their full value. Mr. STAN'BERY. Timbers and nothing else, You do not say that you will )ay for the thing takenfor the valuable thing taken-for the propertv talen. lIr. tiU.MPHRLV1LLE. We do say so in the 39th sect~ion. ~Mr. STANBERY. Not at all. I shall come to this in a few nmor-teiats, and show that vou have not said so. It has been as,serted that a tliiing of value is not property. Canniiot a fra-nichise be solzd' This bridge, wilh the right to take toll - 3Ir. RABNEY, [in his seat.] Suppose the bridge i.:, gole?, can't vou sell the charter? [Several others pulttinig questions at the same time.] Mr. STANBERY. One at a time, if you please. But, as- I was sayinig, this bridg,e, with the right to take toll, niay be sold under execution. Is it Ilot property, then'? What idea has the gentleman? 1 atll putting the case of an individual ownier of a franchise. Upon his death, it goes to his children. lf he get~s inlto debt, it goes tv his creditors. It is tranlsferable anld descendable, as other propertiy, in all res~pect~s. So thle lawv vindicates itseli'. Nit. RLEEMELIN, [interposirng.] CaT) the Legislaturesgranlt a franichise to a sinjgle individual, unider thle Co~nstit~ution? Mr. 8TANBERY-. They can grant a franzchise to an inldividual. If the gemlleanll w~ill comne to mne, I wvill teach himl more about law than he seems to know 11OTW. 12 62 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MoNI)AY, JANUARY 6. 263 *snbscrvient to the public good, and may be taken for that power of repeal would "CUT EVERY ENGLIs1MAN the public use; but always with compensation to the TO TIIE,O.NE." owner —giving to every man the full value of the But the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. GROESBECK,] t,Mhin taken. has given us a new reason why a charter is not a cone I understaind the gentleman from Hamilton (-M,r. tract. That it wants mutuality-the corporation not (rO-ar>, ci:) to say, that the State can only take a being bound by it-not being commpelled to accept it fi-anchiCe by virtue of the right of eminent domain: -not being obliged to perform its stipulations-or and that it nmay be taken by repeal, provided only the rather that after the act is passed, and the contract is State pays foi it. What a non sequitur is here! The made upon the part of the State, it remains optioiaal gentleman says the sanie rule should apply with re- with the corporators whether they go on with it or s to the repealing or taking the property of cor- not. porations or individuals. Aye, is that the rule? But Not a contract? What, then, is a policy of insiii;oa-y the State repeal my deed? my patent? and so rance? I haiv a ship with,liich I propose to descrin! ::ake my property simply upon the condition of com- the Ohio river. I take out a policy of insurance upp~eoas~tioi? N o ~sir; the State cannot do that. It is on my vessel —binding everything securely. But iritin the power of the State to do that. If the subsequently, it happens that I do not send my ship. ;:~oiint of my l'and is but half an acre, and not worth I do not choose to perform that part of the matter cona half dollar, inet twenty laws (,f the State of Ohio templatedin the policy. Tie geritlernar's doctrine i-, can takhe at.;,a hat way nor in any way, unless it that my policy is no contract. roav be renurred by a public necessity. I have another case. A man grants me the right This wa is iust t}e fault in an,irgument, which wa~ of way over his lot of ground, for a consideration, by 11t bfault oin a -rgumsennt bt therh was aath which mvself, my heirs and assigns are to have tlhe ' e.Il but e, whtd argument; right to eass over, going and returning, for all time be c~it sturd wliat wo-uld have been a sound ar o,go;roevt. fpine term of the proposition slips out of the to come. Now, unless I am bound to go on and exgerotlerxnaa2~'s mind. He waiinted to find some m eiddlse that right, according to my learned friend, this rod etween the doctrine of abs'olute repeal and ontract .dil of tha~t doctrine. But I must tell the Mr. GROESBECK (interposing.) I ask the gen.,gentlemani thi thhee is no "free soil"-ino middle tieroan; if it is not the declaration of the Courts, ltai grounr'd here. Tre one position is right, and the you find the consideration by which the State is lield, from tu de fact that the Company go forward with tli. weork? , Mr. STANBERY. That is not the point. Th,, h'r flrC~ern ta trom Han oitond (~fon arsute rep(-',a, toposition was, that a charter cannot be called a contract. ~:t~e getlemr~ from Hamitton found it -necessary to ny that a chartecr was not a contract. He said"this toase whei ocrated it does not biri the corporators' tire to take advantage of it. They may or may not, and d(lea ~f a. centract, was tirst estahlished erefore it is no co,atract, because both parties are not nmt College casc-&-thaet the old books gave no cou r- bound. The answer is, that the contract is n'ot made cnac to such a doctrine, anil he Iwas riot willing to until the charter is accepted. Then we have what /full,or tIe Darticmth decision. I do not see of what a iltidecoial is to theg'rentleomari —or alfhough he i ecessary in all contracts, the consent of both paracv:ails th at th e ghateri a fralthiso hn ties, We are talking about a right of repeal after ac iliattat thle charter wbhich vest~s a franchisein u.s otiact —yvetheadmitstatthefran- eeptance,-inot about a right of repeal before accep'hr~c ~:. "eai i -, property arid the icu~ htatme —or before anything is done upon the filth of chis so;,es~d,is propertm —anrd the difficulty Ie tie charter. s. It is just as much beyond legishltive power, Mr. GC OESBECK. What is the consideration of' :nder our sysfen, to violate property as it is to vi- the contract? 1E4t not the obligation on the purt of ea cltract —just ais unconstitutional to take the plea.sure, as to break the other at pleasure. the comapany to go,n with the enterprise conternit, sir I fir d it;'cerv dif.cult to separate the idea ol plated in the charter? Or if they enter. upon the work, and stoli after a time, can they be compelled to -i, co~,a tract frma legisl,ative- grant of property. g n A VOICE. How is it ii, thre case of descenf t goo? Ar flow ~isitY inrv thercase of0 desce nt? or Mr. STANBERY. That would depend upon the MIf-r. STA.NBERY~. P'rop-ert-,- therl p. sesb pe-.terms of the charter. If the terms of lhe charter bidl -afion r'r l~aw1 - am n.ow speaking of the vesting or the corporation, after having entered upon the work, fpassirn,g of propefrv by a particular legislatrve grant or whatever it may be to persevere, then of course sucth — and I s.y t,h it is diibcult to see how property i their contract and they must perform it. can be so vested, and yet not be vested upon the And now I affirm again, that the gentleman is wrong i-ooting of corn,tract. It hias all the qualities of a con- whe he says, that the Legislature has the right at ni ,,ract. it. is m~ade upon ao'alua~ble consideraf, ioiifor times, to repeal a charter, by paying a compenration to :he sec-uritv a, nd disposition of property-nod On the the holders. There must be somithiug else —some :' iti of't real and personil prop erty is devoted to public niecesitv —an actual not a pretended necessitycer'i= uses, aud oftentim es so devoted as to be val- why the chiarter should be, repealed. It is for the cotn,:,,le-ss for auv other usis. moe good that ani act of incorporation is granted;aand it Sir ise the gentleman frorn Hamilt(o was is only when such a corporation becomes injurious to '~ight in saying that the oid_ books were agains~t the the conimoni good that its franchises can be talley Dartmout'h Ccile're case. Thaf case denied to aState away. Whenever they are foun d to interfere with hegislaiture the poweor to repeal a cliaitei vesting indi- those rights anid liberties of the people, which the vidua1 rii ht~s Th'e old h.onks, tiant is the Erngglis government is bound tonsecure, there is a public necees 5ck, c't'eaS i'~o sucb doctrine as thatf in r-eference to sity for taking away the charter; arid until that shill tire pow ers of their Le'ris latre. The E~nglish iParlia- appear you canuot touchi it. merit is in theory, oronipotrif. it. can do anything But, it is said, if a franchise is private property, treii — and of course CRn, at, will, repeal all charters and we need riot be careful about the terms of the sectlet seize all franchise. All thait is tiheoretically true, under coinsideration; because it will find ample pro, ceand yet it. was well said by one of the greatest ef tion in the ~9th section. Undoubtedly it is privat,English lawyers, when a bil!for t.he repeal of a char- property;aiid undoubtedly its lprotection is provided f'cr ,zer was before tire PaiirlCiaet, that the exercise of, ini the thirty-ninth section This provision is, The OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUJARY 6. private property shall not be taken for public use, wit6lout compensation. We are willing to trust it under Sle 39Lh section. If vou will leave that alone, we will have nothing to say. A vot,-.. That woi,'t protect you. AIr. S'FANBERY. Thatt is true-it will be no pro. tection if this provision is stricken out. If we say, as is now proposed, that the Legislature shall have the un restricted power to repeal all charters and destroy all franchiiises-then we introduce a new rule. We then say Ihat charters and franchises are not property — th,' they are ot. to h-i lbra sa,f,-,,.rds of proorti that they may be taken or destroyed without a public necessily, and wilthout conpensation. Alr. KIRKWOOD (interrupting.) What tribunal is to (etermnine the existence of this public necessity. i5]r. STANBERY. In the last resort, the Courts are to determine it-the sarnme authority which protects you and mie from legislative oppression. And I will show Lou how. Does the gentleman say that the Legislature can take my farm for public use. upon the ground that public good requires it for a miill? I tel you, sir, they could not affirm the existence of a public inecessit;they could not determine the case at all. For if they could, we might be in the hands of tyrants. If they say land may he taken for a road or a bridge, these are necessary for the public use: but if they de termine to take my iand for a mill, a tavern, or a cot(on factory, they propose what they have not the power to do: and the Courts would decide any such law to hae uiconslitutiolnal. But tny friend from Trumnbull [Mr. RAN.YEY] saAys Trust the Legislature: your flars are all imaginary: tlhe Legislature never will do your property any harmn, I vested in corporations: they will always respect private p.ioperty-trust the Legislature. Who is he t hat says this? The very gentleman who, from the first 0of the sittings of this Convention, has told us that he n(,ver would trust the Legislature. Mr. RANNEY (in his seat.) The gentleman states what I never uttered. Mir. S'TANBERY. When I said, sometimes int he si;inimer, that the Legislatutre ought to be iii Ctolumbus crace a year, to watch the disbursements of the p ub li c tr(aquryv, the gentleman's reply was, that they would watnch these public interests as a dog watch es his master's dinner. Aye, sit, and whe n w e gver uron[lH tle 39tl1 section, he avowed that he would Dn"t, trust thlem at all; he would not trust the public-that was i-to take individual property, even for a publicuse, uniless compensation weirefirst paid inll money, acccldbig to the assessment of a jury of twelve nmen. Su(h a provision as that, he declared he would put into the constitution! for he had neither trust in the Legislati4re, nor in the courts; he had no confidence in themwhenever private rights stood in their way. Tiust the Logislatitrel have confidence ill the justice of the governlment! The gentleman has no such tiust or confidentice. I was not willing to go the length of that gentleiman, when the question was before us, touchfng the inviolability of private rights; although nearly all the little property I possess on earth is individual property, I could not consent to go the length which that gejtlemnan desired. He would not allow the government to take private property for public use, or public necessity, until the government should first furnish the compensation in money, according to the assessment of a jury. Who ever heard of such a - constitutional provision? But the gentleman saves that is right! What is an individual, that his rights should be elevated so far above the rights of the public? He is but an ato(m; and, although I respect his rights, whatb rights has he, which this hated public has not given or secured to him? I respect the rights of the indi vidual; but, whenever the time comes to decide be t,,veen individual good and the public good, I can have no hesitation. Let the individual yield. TIhe government may even demand the life of the itidi vidual, if the public necessity require it. The gen tleman himself might be drafted into thewar service, and din e in the ranks in his country's de fe nce: and he could not die in a bett e r cause. How,l then, would ihe gentleman justify himself in withholding iis or pertv from the goveriinmenti?-a sacrifice infinitely be. low the demands of patriotismin. Whly i~sr, what w;ou}4 your property be worth with out the protectio of them government'a The strongest rgtan would hold thed most; and you do not look like oine of the strongest. The high principle of patriotism requires the sirjreni der of life or property, when ever either allay be de manded by the public good. In other eouniitries, they take these without comiipensation. Here compenisation is made in all cases. But the gen tlem an requires thai; it shall be first paid in mmney-a thing e-~ev-er before thought of in a constitution. In his solici'tude for the, protection of individual property, the genitleman seeims to forget that we have any government at all. But, if we go on stripping the government of i~ts powers,. what is to become of individual rights? Flor when the government dies, individual rights muList die with it. I have more confidenrc in the Legislatiur-e t,han tt; gentleman fromt Trumbnill has; but I have not, so mlluch). confidence I}l that body as to prevent ale from, putting into the constitution so01me wholesome linaita. tions upon the infractions that rmar be *made upon: property; and I would have the samtre rule for the pry tection of property held by anr individual and pro, perty held by a conpany. I would take ace property but'upon some public necessity; nior tlieni withmli, compensation. Mr. President: what are we al.bout? I address my' self to the sound sense and judgment of both sides of' the House. I affirm that wre are about to change thier tenure of property. By and by, some gentleman wiIll come in with an a-mend meiit, declarinig expressly what; is now fully implied in this section, that this uncorr ditional right of repeal shall operate retrospectively upon charters whicth have been already gr-anlted; and the gentleman from Hamilton [Mr. R1FEMErJi] will }ei.ea( this column. Mr. REEMELIN (in his seat.) I shall mot lea-dbut I will go along. Mr. STAN BERY. Well, then, perhaps the gentie man will whip it up behinds But he will have a tus, time of it, at anv rate. I made this suppOsitio~i, because the gentlemnan fromt Hamilton las told Us that he has "a holy horror" of all corporations. I was, much suq,rised whene the gentleman fromr Lickin.g [Mr. CAsiEI told ns this morning, that the gentleman from Hamilton had selected his quarters ihl the house (the Burinet) owned by a corporation. I would alimiost as soon have expcsted to hear that he had take] up his abode in a den of lionis. Who would have dreamt that his democratic tread should ever be heard upon the marble floors of that incorporated palace! 1, can see him now in those saloons decorated with, more than oriental splendor — reg.arding his democratic features before those vast mirrors Gin wvhichl he of GarB, Gullah —might have v:iewved his giant bul.k W~hole without stooping-towering crest and all."w I can see the gentleman reposing his d-mocratic limbs upon the yielding velvet of thosJe incorporated cattoy mzaas —basking in the glare oi! those crystal lamps, blazing with many a row of burnling cress~ets, an~d yielding "'light as lirom a aky>>' 264 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUA^Y 6. But now, again, I affirm (with the gentleman from Hanmilton) that the present legislature, sitting in Co flumbus, has all the power of any legislature that ever sat there. But still, the grant of a franchise by one legislature, cannot be resumted by anrothler. There is no question about political p ower here. No legis latuire has or ever had the unhilnited power to repeal acharter; although all have the power to grant char ters. To illustrate this-the State often holds public lands. Take the case of the State gratllting to an individual one hnndred acres of land for the consider ation of two dollars an acre. Could the next legisla ture take back that property, because they may ex ercise as much power as the preceding legislature? aNot at all. They cannot touch it. Whatsoever is lawfully granted ill the way of property, cannot be resumed by any authority of the State, except upon the demand of somne public necessity. This is the tenure upon which corporations hold their franchises, and inidividutals their property; and there is no dan ger of our liberty being infringed by this. Danger to our liberties fromn corporations! Pray sir', who is there here that does not feel that he is precisely as free in the midst of all these corporations, as he would be, if not one of them was in ex istence? But corporations are not above the law-they must proceed according to the term s of thei r charters. If t'MRey infringe their charters, in but one particular, we punislh them capitally-we des troy their life-but not without a trial. Now let us contemplate the State of Ohio, and tati vast interests upon which thlis great subject is to oper ate. Tile gentleman from Trambull, has said the StatM is Ishingled all o ver with corporations." I thank G od, t Sta t it is. Mr. RANNEY (in his seat). You thank God for small favors. Mr. STANBERY. Small favors, do you call them:' What have these cori orations done? Tiler have built your churches; they have bridged irnpassafile st reams; they hasve erected colleges and universities; they have levelled hills and filled up vallies, and niade roads over which you can Iravel with lightning speed; they have erected telegraplhs for instant communi-ication from one end of the land to the other. We came down to this city in the cars of a corporation. We paid our fare with the money of a coi-poratioii. And when woeame here, we could find no better place to sit in, than the hall of a corporation. Yes, sir, and when the light of dav fails us here-in an instant —in the twinkling of an eye- a flood of corporate light is poured upon us. Would, sir, that this brilliant outward light might but slhine inward, and our dark minds irradiate. With the little wealth we have il Ohio, there would have been no other way of carry inig out those great objects of public necessity and convenience, than by this means of corporate association. And it is because we have not many very rich men amongst us, that we re quire more corporations in this couniitry, than they do in England. There, enterprises requiring much mo. nley, comne within the means of single individualshere they canl only be accomplished tby the association of manly individuals, each contributing a part towards tile common capital. Thlis goodly State —so pleasant now to live in —what would It have beenl without corporaltionls? We should hlave been quite behind the age-with no railroads, no eelleges, nlo universities, and few turnpikes, plank loads, bridges, or churches. But now, by this means of association, we have obtained these good results, and the land is covered with blessings. And nlow, are you going to strike dow'n these corporations? Are you And I can follow him a little fuirther,-when he takes his seat at that incorporated tatyle, and finds before him at incorporated plate, an incorporated knife, and an- in cor porated fork-a silver fork, at that, with as ma nyprongs as a hay-rake. And I c an r egard him still a little fur ther, but with less surprise, I call see him drink Mr. REENELIN (in his seat.) Home-made Catawba. Mr. STANBERY. -of that incorporated brandy; and although he ha s alw ays insis ted that corporations have no soul, I think, by this timne, he must have foundl out attha t they have some spirit. Mr. REEMELIN (in his seat.) fHas the curtain dropped? Mr. STANBERY. I wo nt f ollow t he gentleman into any other of the incorporated places about that house. Mr. REEMELIN (risitlg.) I would say to the gentJevnan t hat hle don't know what democracy mea nstoIat it i s on e of the first ideas of a democra t to live upon the b est which the country afford s. Mr. STANBERY. Yes, if he is a rich one. Mr. REEMELIN. No; if he is a p oor one, as well. Mr. STANBERY. I s hall pursue the gentleman no further. I was led away inton an episode, which I c ould not help following a little. Butlet us consider the subject seriously. You declare in th is Con stitution the inviolability of in dividual property. But, you do not stop then. You declare that t he leg islat ure shal l have th e right to repeal charters of cor porations. And you want to go a step further. You wanit to assert a new legislative powe r over t e their property-not only over th ose cearters which Slav be hereafter granted; but overall tose now in existenkce. Now they are all safe. Betfor e this Convention met; before the consultations of these hundred awd e ight delegates began, there was wot a dollar vest ed in any corporation in Ohio, but what wa s as safe as y ou r l and or mine. There were, to be sure, s omue p opul ar cries against this manner of investing property by the rich. But now we come here th d eclare another doctrine- to make a charge in the tenure of property. What property? Batik Property alone? Not at all; and that would have been unreasonable and oppressive enough; but the property of all corporations. Churches, bridges, turnpikes, railroads, you are to repeal all. Gentlemen have affirined that the legislature have always had this power, although the Courts have never found it out; and the gentleman from Hamilton, I thlinik it was, asserted, in support of this ground, that thte present legislature of Ohio had just as much power as any legislature which has preceded it. Now, I say this, that no Legislature ill Ohio ever yet had the power to repeal a charter. Mr. KIRKWOOD (interrtuptin-g.) Had not the legislature, at one time, the power to say that nothing shioula circulate as currency in the State of Ohio, except gold and silver? Mr. STANBERY. Is that taking acharter? The gentleman does not consider what I arn upon. Had I the time to attend to his question, I would cheerfully do so. I say, the legislature cannot repeal a char or; although any-thing may be taken for a public nec:essity. Mr. HOLT (interposing.) ls the legislature to be the judge of that necessity, or the Courts? Mr. STAN BERYr. The Couirts;gill judge. They woulld, of coulrse, give great latitude to the judgmnent of the legislature; but the Courts are our final1 re-1 60rt. They are our anchor and safe-guard. Other —t wise, the legislature might take all our property an- t der the plea of a public use. 265 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 6. going to takt- away the security of their property, and frighiten menf so that they will never e,ibark their ijmans in corporations for the future? Sir, I do nlot believe you can do this thing; for the more you talk about it, the more you finid yourselves divided upon iha; side of the Chamnber. Besides, who has seen a petitionI or a memorial of the people here, asking for the power of repeal to be e xtended to all corporation charters, past as well as future, without comp,)enisation? There is no such wishl amongst the mass of the people. Anrid if you were able to put this piece of ultraisn into the Conistitutioni, and were to do it, I tell you, sir, I would inot give aniytfirin for its chance before the people. AFTERNOON SCION. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. The pending question being upon the motion of Mr. HARD, to reconsider the vote taken bv which the Convention refused to strike out all after the word "state," in the proposition of Air. VANCe of Butler, (before recited.) Mr. McCOR.'ICK. It is with no pleasurable sen sations, Mr. President, that I rise, to deliver my opin ions upon the question now before this body, and to find myself, to some extent, isolated in opinion, from thos e, with whom it has hitherto been my pride and my pleasure to act and to associate. I am not one of those who wouli willingly cherish a difference of opinion, unless driven to do so, by the force of cir cumstances. Such circumstances have now ariseni, and they have imposed upon me, the duty of stating to the Convenrtioli, the reasons by which I have ar rived at the conclusions, which I have been forced to entertain, and to lay down the grounds that will gov ern nay action upon this, and similar questions, to be settled by this body. Now, I do riot conceive that the actual difference in opinion between gentlemen is as great, as at first sight, would appear, or as some suppose. There are in fact, differences of words, that do not exist in sub stance. I know thalt we are all aiming at one and the same thing-the general good of the people of Ohio; but from the different distances fromrn which we view the questions that couie before u —the differences that exist in mental conformation and habits of thought and expression, diversities spring tip which are partly imaginary and paitly real, but which we are too prone to treat as real in every respect and to the fullest extent. I, for instance, claim for the Leg islative power of the state, wvithout reference to any constitutional provision heireafter to become opera tive, the right to repeal all acts of incorporation here tofore granted, for cer tain purposes. Let it be remiem I)ered that I do not say all acts; but I lay downi the broad:rround of the absolute and unqualified right to repea Ial any, everv, and a-ll chlarters of incorporation heretofore grantedl, for certain purposes. Now, it iwill be seen that I assert the right of the General Assemibly, to annul and destroy those fran chises whlich are attached to, and grow out of, acts of incorporation; but, I beg leave to re.mark, it does not follow, that I anm in favor of ant cextremrne and instant exercise of that right, irrespective of the public bene fit, or the private iniijury that may accrue fromn the act. Such is not my idea of public justice; and I would be the last to be guilty of a mnere uncalled for and pwanton injury to the citizen. There are others who b i )elieve that thlei Legislature nay, foir certain specific purposes, and wvilh certain qualifications, and under certain restrictioiis, exercise the power to repeal; and they are willing to establish the existeince of that right by~ pursling what scems to me to be devious paths eate t u id specious ways. Others again deny the right of tiheyt Legix lature, iin anv case, as flatly as I assert it. Yet we all mleet at, last upon olne commnon ground, which is this: Should the Legislature see fit to resu me the franchises which in any case it has granted, and take from ian incorpor',ted comnpaily, the rights it a exe rcised under its charter, it is the du'ty of that body to repetal the charer, and to provide that the injury done be compensated, and the party injured Iade safe from losis. When, ther-efore, gentlemen upon this flour, are pleased to say that we seek to do a wanton injury to Aassociations of men-when they are pleased to assert, that we are practicing upon tie code of mrorals of the highwayman, the guerilla chieftain, or the Arab t of the desert, they are pleased to d?.clare what rests MI was i n hope s, at. one t ime, tha t we should not run into these ultraisns in our act.ion hBtre. I was glad, in the commencement of the, sunmmer session, to hear the genltlenai tfrom Auglize declare, that ie did not bring his party pr ejudices here. But that was a cnswered by the gentleman from Trumbull, when be told us that he should not dispense with his. Mr. RANNEY (in his seat). I said I brought my party priinciples here. I carry them about with me at all times. Mr. STANBERY. All I ask of you, then, is not to put them into the constitution. Mr. RANNEY I'll (lo my best to put them there. Mr. MITCHELL,. And so wil' 1. Mr. STANBERY. Then party )r'in(iples are to be put into tile COnlStitultiOn, are they? Tale gentleman from Knox, anld the gentleman from rrumbull are agreed in this —t ar nobilefratrum! This is our ground. Wie go for the inviolability of private property. We are, opposed to the idea of protectingv one kited of property, and subjecting another kind to public plunder: and one half of the people of the State, who think with us, are known to approve this doctrine, as ogle man. What, sir, is the object of a Cornstitutioni? Is it not t]his very thinig —not to trample upon, but to protect the minority? Party principles may be one thing todav and another thing to-tmiorrow. But the principles of the Contstitution should be et.ernal. Therefore I do not wish to see party principles in the Con-stitutiorn: and, if we were in the, majority, they would not be i.plaeed there. Mr. REE,MIELIN [in his seat.] You would riot lmave put in anly principle. Mr. STANBERY. You are wron1g, sir. But we would leave changed the old Const-itution as little as possible, and we would have completed our workfixed out the whole —ill niniety days lime: whereas you will require more than ninety days to come. The highest praise which cal) be given to the people of any clistri,-t, is to say, that theiy did not select a mole party xan to sendup hlere for this morlk-that they did not send up delegates here to put their ultraistns into the Constitutioni; but that they sent men to settle and fix iupon the great princiiples of government. Sir, those that listen attentively can hear above this present clatmor against corporate property, a still n:,)re threateninig cry against -individual property. There are men ami-onig us —anid loit a fefw, not willing to stop wit'! the p?riviieges of a corporation. Teach this less,)Li of plunder, ainm this blow at the inviolability of property and it will not be long before you will come to hear that your farm of one hundred acres is an exclusive privilege. After.Nr STANBERY had concluded. On tooion by M1r. CGIAMBEPRS, the Convention took a reca,ps. 2 C)IO OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Mo,INDAY, JANUARY a. for its foundation, upon their own mere assertion, and A that this may be done whenever it is demanded by the upon no safer or more substantial basis. public welfare. The State, doubtless, has its right of Again, it is claimed that in case the right of the eminent domaiii-a right superior and paramount to General Assembly, to repeal acts of incorporation, every other in certain exigencies, but inferior to all shall be declared in this constitution, so opposed is othes, at ordinary times. When it becomes active, it the democratic party to the practice of allowing wealth is migihty and commensurate to the deniand that to be associated, that there would be an iiistantaneous gives it vitality; when it i.s dornmant, it is imnperceprepeal of all acts of incorporation. Not so; Master tible, and there are no munniimets to signify its exBrooke; not so sir; I believe I uinderstand the wants istence. The question is: How shall this right be exof the people, in this respect. I know too, the bene- ercised? fits that have accrued from such associations, and I Some gentlemen seem to suppose that at the derespect the men who have the courage and the enter- mand of ahlost any public exigency, or public exprise, to associate their wealth and their energy, for pediency, or party expediency, the Legislature may the promotion of works calculated to benefit the pub- trample down, at once, all the charters of the State, lic. And I will assert here, as broadly as it can be and their dependent franchises, under the right of laid down in worsds, that to the Legislature alone, un- eminrent domain. This proposition, while it seems (idr the constitution, beloings the right to provide the to be admitted by the gentleman firom Hamilton, (Mr. means by which individual wealth iiiay be legally as- GRO;SBECa,) is denied by the gentleman from Franksociated, for enterprises of a public or economical lin, (Mi. STANBERY,) in aportioii of whose remarks, I character. concur, while I miust beg leave to dissent from others. The poilnt which I desire to make is this It is not I-e says, the court alone is to be the judge of the exthe principle of associated wealthl against which I pediency of the confiscation. What! The court to il t ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~~e - ~the judge of the qieition of public expedieDCY — contend; but the practice of granting exclusive spe- be the judge ofmande by theion of public good-thexpediencycial privileges connected with the fianchise. To the public Leg,islature belongs the right to associate wea l th t weare! Why, sir, the getlena for once forgot build common, plank or rail roads, bridges, or to el- himself —learned and astute as he is. Let nie present gage in any other similar enterprise; and to gr'ant'to a case of public necessity, arnd apply the rules of the such associated wealth that royal right-that emana- gentleman. tion from the sovereign prerogative known as a fran- A war breaks out, and two opposing armies meet chise; but the right to grant otiher exclusive pr ivile,ges upon a plain for the purpose of bt)attle. There hapand exemptiouns, does not exist under our constitution pens to stand a house be(tweeni the two bodies, which -and cannot, for that reason, be conferred bv thethe public good at the time requires should be imLegislature; aid every act by which these privileges mediately destroyed. The right to destroy the house and exemptions are pretended to be conferred is, so is undoubted, the question is under what authority it far, ab initio, i-iull and void; and it is upon this posi- shall be done. The gentleman from Hianilton, (Mr. tion, that I shall presently base the arogument which GIaosBECK,) stands forth, declares that by virtue of I am about to make. the right of eminent domain, the State may command, Again sir; I do not propose that the right to repeal and the house must fall. But he insists that before charters heretofore granted,be inserted'intheConstitu- this can be accomplished, a session of the General tion. To do so, would be of no avail. The question Assembly must be convened, the public exigency deinvolved, is judicial rather than legislative, and clared with all the formalities of lawv; the house constands thus:'Iihe Legislature has granted charters demued, and removed by the Executive of the State. of incorporation. Now if the charters so granted, Oil the other batu(l, the geustleman flom Franklin have been legally granted; granted in accordance with -would argue that a cout must be called, a bench of the fundamenital law of this state; then by the decis- judg(s organized: a jury empanelied to determine ion of the highest judicial tribunal of our country, i omi the testilimony, the necessity fo)r destroyiniig the such charter is declared a contract, and is obligatory house. Lawyers nmust wrangle over the question; the ic its termis upon the legislature and people of the court lay down the law, the jury find a verdict, judgstate. I do not say it is a contract; but the supreme ment be pronounced, and process issued to the sheriff court has so said, and the decisions of that court are to take away the obstructi(n. And all this time the obligatory until reversed-and I aiii conisequently "armies are to stand still, while the Legislature is conbound to admit that such charter is a contract. Now venled, or the Court, and( until the gentleman fromn sir, if these charters have been legally grianted, this Franklin has made his appearance on the part of the convention cannot clothe the legislature with the State, to eiilighteii the court and jury upon the law power to repeal them; not possessing in itself, such of the case. power-and the insertion oft such a declaratory pow- I hold, Mr. President, that whatever may be the peer-, would be void. But on the other hand, sniime of culiar circumtistainces of the case, the law fixin-g the us claim that the legislature has not possessed power rule must be the same. An army in its iiiarch reto grant charters of iincorporat ion except for specified quires the transportation of its banagae. The wagpurposes; and these charters having been granted by ons and teams of the cotuntry are seized upon for the an authority not legally authorised so to do the grant purpose. Will gentlenen contend that before they itself is void, and requires no legislative act to incake can be made available, the Legislature must sit upon it so, but nierely the judgltient of a court to declare it the case to determine the exigency and provide for so. If the legislature has parted with no power, it the pavinent, or that the action of a court must be iiican resume no power; if it hal legally granited power, voked' to fix the va'lue and pay it the army to reit cannot resunie it; and to this view of the question, main in its camp tiutil the quiestion is determined we are bound by the opinions of the highest court in and tlle paymniit, niade? Sii, such a proposition rethe Union. qjuires no argumnent. Thlie statement of the doctrine And iiow, sir, let us look at the question before is its refutatioin. The Legislature on the oue hand, us. The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. GitoaSaECK,) and the court on the other, have a power that is adeassures us that the State, or the General Assenibly, quate to the emergency. So when the necessity upon the principle of eminent domain, may take the arises, the power comes {withi it-to the Executive offip-operty of the individual citizen, aud employ it in cer pressed by the emergency —that great power of the construction of a public work. No oue denies great public uecessity which overrides all written 267 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —Mo.NDAY, JANUARY (. laws, and is a law unto itself. The emergency is in- But, Sir, I could never stubmit to the invocation of stantaneous, so is the taking, the proprietor suffers at tilhe principle of eminent domaini, for the purposes to the moment under a pressure that he neither can nor which geatlemnen claim that it may be applied. It is ought to re.ist. The State has exercised upon his a right in itself too potent, atd all pervading to be called property, its highest and most irresistible act of sov- into action for aiiy but high purposes, and at any call ereigu,ty. In tirie hlie is paid for the damages he has bit that of extreme necessity; and is not the proper enincurred. and the public which for reasons vital to its gille to be put in action for the mere abstrilftion of a existence, has been forced to an act of violeuce, ran- franchise. Why, Sir, the General Asses;bly itncorpoders at the first practicable moment a return in money rates a conipany for tile construction of a road- it for the injury that has been sustained. gives to that company the powe,r to receive tolls at a The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr GRO ESBECK,) certain rate upon the work it has built, cud this duclaims that franchises are property, and that it is be- ring all time to come. Subsequently it asserts thatthis cause thiey are property, that they may be taken for right to take tolls is a Irainclise-that being a franthe public use on being paid for. The gentleman from chise, it is property, and and as such, uponi the priticiTrumbull, avoids the conclusion of the gentleman ple of eminent domnain, it may be taken oe)II a plea froni Hamilton, (Mr GROFSBECK,) by denying the of public necessity. Sir, to do this, is like arousing premises. He denies that franchises are, or under any up the whole fury of the oceanI to waft a feather, and circumstances can be ptioperty —so does the gentleman piling up all his billows, to drown at fly. from Miami, (Mr. DoasEY.) The gentleman from Sir, the principle of eminient domain is not intended Franklin, Mr. STANBERY,) stands aghast at this-not to be the subject to such common calls autd ordinary because the physician from Miami, (Mr. DoRtE~Y) says uses. It is insidious eriough, and powerful enough, to so, but because the doctor of laws trom Trumbull, be held in reserve for different and greater occasions; (Mr. RANNEY,) says so. Well, a franchise is, and it is to be brought uponii the stage only when the highest not property. This sounds like a paradox; but it ad- power known to a goverment, is to be exercised for mits of all explanation. And now, to solve this seem- purposes vital to its own welfare, o:" existence. Sir, the ing contradiction. A franchise is property, as being a power it holds in reserve, is lilke the power of a Godivalue in estate real-a properly in property, and there- it is omnipotenlit within the spliete of its action. It defore the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. STANBERY,] is mands and takes property, liberiiy -eve life itself-at correct wfhen he calls it property. Still it is not pro- the ca;ll of tile public necessity. It takes the nani from party in the general acceptati,.)n- of that term. It is his field, the father from his fa-i,ly, the bridegroom not a tangible, palpable sonmething, held by seizin, and from his bride, and places himn iii the ranks of death; capable of boitg reached by executioi at law. And, it calls the priest from the altar, and lays the altar all iti this sense, the geutleman from Trumbull, [Mr. prostrate in the dust: iay, it even wrestles with disRANNEY,] is co, rect. A franchise isa part of the sov- ease for h!s victim, and is inexorable as deili. Like ereigilty of the State, vested in the citizen and giving the bloody cross of Clan Alpiii, it rushes from hill to valanl additional value to his property. But that property ley —io.w flashes on the mountain top —iiow speeds in property is only to be transferred by the disposition over the plain; every one who is called upon, becomes of the substantial basis to which the peculiar property its bearer, and all who catch a sight of its branches, attaches. You cannot sell the right of private way, speed on its summotns, and forgetting all other claims, without a sale of the realty to wahich it attaches, or swift as the embrace of ardent love, rush to the gather. thie right to take tolls without disposing by the same act in,- strife of death. of the turnpike or bridge which forms the basis of the Sir, I would not convert such a power, into a thing right; con;sequentllty a franchise is not, in common par-, of ordinary use, for comnion occasions. lanice, property. Thle Supreme Court has de(i led thint I The question then is, what is a charter? The genthe lease of a water privilege, on the Canials of the I tleman from Belmont, [Mr. KENNON,] says, it is a conState, is niot such a property, in the lessee, as may be tract. Well, it may be so; but I have my dou:/,ts of it. sold on execution; yet this is a property more palpable However, it is little worth my while to deny what canthan any ordinary incorporation franchise, and(to give not be overcome. The gentleman from Belmont, cites thle devil his due) that Court has once more, decid- the decision of the Supreme Couit of the Uniited States; ed right. Therefore, sir, when the gentleman from andi to this, I am forced to bow-not because I believe Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) said that a franchise is not it is the law —but because it is the decision. It being property in the ordinary acceptation of the temni, he so decided, I am forced to grant, that the charter of a stated no more than is strictly correct; and when the road or a bridge company, which has been conferred gentleman from Fraikl iii, t(Mr. STANBERY) insisted by a legisltture competert to create the same, is a coitract. that a franchise is property, in a limited sense of the If, however, the Legislature w(as not empowered by the term, he was correct also, fundamental law of the land, to make suchi a grant, then Take, for illustration, the righit of way which by ace- it is not a contract. lion of law, one man may acquire over the farnm of And now, Mr President, let us examine the law of another. A. 7owns a farni lying along tepbiblbthe public high the ase, as a judicial question; and for the purpose of way; and B. owns another farm, which is cut off from so doing, let us take the same starting point, and purthe highway by the farm of A. In this case, upon the sue the satie course taken by the gentlemaen trom Belprinciple of eminent domnain, B. has the franchise of motit. Take the case of the Little Miami Railroad passing to the highway over the land of A. But can company. The company was chartered by the LegisB. sell this right ot access to his own land over that of lature of Ohio, and we will suppose, that the Legislature A. to a third person? By no means. Can it be taken has exercised the power of repeal. A writ of Quo and sold on execution? No. The right is attached Warranto issues, calling upon the company to show to the land, cannot be transferred without it, and goes cause why it continues to tatke tolls, &z., and the questo,and is vested in the purchaser of the realty. lion finally gets to the Supreme Court of the United So,a with the rig.t to take tolls uponanyworkofaStates. The gentleman from Belmontbwho appears on po, with the ragt t to take tolls upon any wcc ork of a the part of the stockholders, produces the charter conpubftc character, or constru cted for t he accom podatio- ferring the usual corporate powers-to use a common of the people, it exists only in connec tionwiththepro name —run cars, take tolls, &c., for the use of the perty, and you cannot dispose of the one without the company, and hiere he rests his case. Inl reply, I exother. hibit to the court, the act of the Legislature, by which 268 OHIO COI\'VEl~TION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 6. the charter was repealed. Then he meets me with the nating with, and drawing their validity from the peocelebrated case of thie Dartinouth College, and there hol ple, are constructed for the purpose of limiting and says he has mtie fast; and then lie wants to see my brief. defiining the powers delegated to the governmeint, nnd Well, I'll show him my brief. should always be construed in favor of liberty, and Now, if the docision of the Supreme Court is iutliori-'to the restriction of arbitrary power. This is an opinty, anid binding upon all tribunals of inferior jurisdic- ion iii which I do not stand alone. I have ain authorlion, in all cases in point, or where the facts are paral- ity which, although I must confess, not very good with lel, with those in the case decided, it will at least be ad- ne, ought to be so with a large body of the gentlemitted, that where lhe facts are not parallel, the case is men upon this floor. Story, in his comnientaries on iiot ii point, and the decision of 1io authority. the tenth amendment of the Constitution of the Uni Andi now, I ask, is the Dartmcouth College case par- ted States, says: n]lel!ih i-?t suppoed, onice-rn-ing #} e L itt-le, 3i-,rT-:i.ot a' aini R~ailroad(1 Let us see. The char ter of Dartmouth tile College was a royal chalmer, granted bv the Sov,ereign B-i, ir ii d powerIs,it follows of Eiiglaud, at a tiore when New Hampshire was' a 1, colony of that country. It had its origin pior to that iblr if indeed by their eonstitt'ii's s of,:t oty o Im r a one of th e,rament respectively in, then, ard if ioe so is,vesltd, it is ,of the State of New Hamnpshiire, and was onoftile retainedl 1Y TIEm o as a wart of theil' rcsidiary sr'vxpre-existing~ elements which entered into the coipo- rE I,,,TY." sition of ti e State. Now, Ir. President, had this Now, sir, lot us construe a sectron of our own Concharter- been riepealed btf act of the Legislaturce of New stitution, upon the plain pirricitple of exposition' laid HIIampshire, before se became a bmeoareber of the Union, (town by the authority which I have read-the authe right of that Legislature to repeal would havo thorty of a man whose exposition of the Constitybeen undoubted. Why? Because her Legislature is rion, and construction of law, was nev er in favor of sovereis'n as to all firings within its re0chb but this the largest liberty. "Associations of persons shall b". charter was part and parcel of herself, when her le- ei'trtitd to receive letters of iircorporatrioii"'-fur what? gislative power was created —was an existing being, The question is not left in doubt. On the contrary, recognized as such-a part of her funiicdarnital law, the purposes are explicitly declared and cleirly de when she was admitted into the Urision, ando a rep,,al fineoi-to ]old estates, real and personal, "for the supwould be, in effect, a disavowal of her constitution port of their schools, acadeoies, colleges, universl,and terms of admission'as one of-the United Statt, ties." under the federal law. The objects expressed in the section are,purely of a Now, it cannot be claimed that any Ohio corpoa- literary and benevolent character; and it would seem tion is, in these respects, parallel with the case cited, to have been the sole oh,4oct of its authorlii to provide as all our corporations are junior to the coiiitfuti'm, that a class of charities of au eleemosynary character, and supposed to be in existence naider and by its an- should be empowered to hold real and personal e-sthoritv. So fti the Dartinouth case faiils as natho i-tate. But there is one expression over which gentlety. tet us pursue the question further. Are the ocr- men stumble. There are the words, d and for otliporations of Ohio created by igal authorr purposes." I am not now referi-ring to the vast irthis r espect brought within the rule of the cas,e cited. responsible and alnost illimitable power that has This is only determinable by giving a coostructlior to been assumed and exercised by the legislative bodies the fundamental laws of the lard. I will examine of Ohio, under no authority, but, what is contained tiLem briefly but freely. By the bill of rights in the in these four simple -words, "aird for other purpoConstitut~ioi of Ohio, it is provided, "that every asso- sos;" but am endeavoring to look at their real mean.elation (if persons, when regularly foroed'withii ing. isi the light of the firrigorrrg part, of the section _~~~ ~t. wic t~ e b, o g T. is this State, and having given themsel ves a rialie, ony, to which they beloing le ectin is a hliole, and on application to the Legislature, be entitled to re- its parts are to bt construed with especial rei ference ceive letters of incorporationi, to enable theic to hold to its unity. To what then do the woiid for "other estates, real and personal, for the support of theo p urposos" rfe? and wnhast is the legislative power schools, acadeories, colleges, universities, ni for otir granted by tie section? Do they refir to the pirpoor purposes sos for which corporations may be creatod, as for 'lAhere, Mr. President, is tie law under whiih, ard schools, colleges, academ ies, universities, and whatunder which alone, the Legislature has the right to'ever ot her puirposes a c ompany ioay seek to be ingrant or refuse acts of incorporation; fior iii the sac vsted by such an act.' or di they r for 10 the mere article we find the fyundamniutal principle, under hicl fact, that esfatos may be holden iby incorporated ill powers were granted to the Logisfature: bodies, other than thrse specifio'de or is the legisia "To 3uard agai,st thr of heih-. tive power restricted, to rle o'rant of the Dere right ihI'ch I h el d, vo d o (IrI,, are [hit a-i [ Iowa r' s ]ot 11(1e l — of holding estates by;ioa inc orporated conipany? I ry g~rante, rerain With tre [e I1e." insist that the last is thi true urearirng that'hel a It is riot, then, Mr. President, the Legislatureo nor company having giveen itself a nare. shall apply to the Congress, that is sovereigni and supreme in this the legislature for an act of incorporation that act of countrv, but it is thie people. I declarie this. sir, not in potion can (raly oniporwer auh compari to for thc roere purpose of making capital in btuicobe,nt hold estate, real and personal, and no more. The legbut as a great, leading fundamental arEMoCATcC priur- silatnre cannot clothe suchi company with franchises, ciple, upon which the very foundations of the goveri- for the use and oecupalioa of the estates they are innient are laid.' Tho Constitution of Ohirii opens~ with cor porated to hold. The lcgislaluro cainnot vest in the' deelatation, that "We, the people.'***do oc'dain.such ecompanv rrghts privileg'es and immunirities, not. and establish," and the snome phraseology is employed'knownn to toe Constitulion, anid bv v irtue of the in the Constitution of the United Stale-s. It is "we, words "other purposes," invest "conipanics jincor tire people," and we only, who possess the powmr to permb," with ahe powers, rights. and privileg-es of bindt onrselves. The very fact that we sit hero in sovereignty, in ccrrtradistinction to the powers, rights this Conv ention, is evidence that the people, sindirr arid privileges of tire citizen. whose authority we hold our p)laces, are the fourilain IBy the section, the powers of the l~egislatnre are aud source of all power; and if such is not the case, hne oaigeojc,sdb i ueo arcn where is our authority? Constitutions, then, origi- I truetioa, can that power be exten~deti to ilew, other or 269 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MoN[DAY, JANUA,RY 6. different objects. By it, companies may be incorporated to hold estates real and persoial, and that is the only section in the constitution of Ohio under tie au thority of which corporations may be established. In o it the,'e is not a word upon the subject of roads or bridgess-nothing in relation to fratnchises-riglits of way or rights to take tolls and enjoy exclusive privi leges; nothing in fact, but the simple right to hold es tates real and personal. And,sir,wlhen tile Legislature goes beyond this, it transcends its power, violates the rights of the people, and acts in contravention to the fundamental law of the State by the authority of which it thus exists, to exercise uncoiistltutionial power aud therefore when the General Assembly empowered the stocktholders of the Little Miami R:ilroad to g p upon and condemni the land for a track,, to lay its rails, to hold exclusive possession of its property and fixtures, to carry passengers and receive payment-to transport freight an,! to claim and collect tolls, it did that which it had no power to do, and enacted a law which if not void in itself; is, to say the least, repeala ble. .Mr. Presidenit, the. gentlem-an from Belmont, [r KENNoN',] ust fail in his case, for the thatethority upon which he relies is not in point; the cases are not par allel. But th at getleman endeavors to sustain his case by the decision of the Supreme Court of Ohio, in Corn inercial Batik vs. Ohio, respecting which, first, I rea mark, the decision was not made by a full court; sec oiidiy, it was not concurred in by all the, judges who were present at the time; and thirdly, that it is not such a decision as declares to toe fullest extent, agaiiiiot the right of the Legislature to repeal ciarters already granted. The court take it as admitted t th at t he Dart mouth College does apply, without entering into an examination of the relative circumstances of the two cases. ihey,ay this: "We take it to be well settled, that the charier of private corporation is in the nature of a contract between the State and the corporation. " As a matter of course the cou-rt would say so, and now fir their %vise reason for so saying. "Had there ever been any doubts upon this subject, those doubts mu,t have been removed by the decisian of the Supreme Court of the United States, in the caise Woodward vs. Dartmouth College." The court in this case have de clared their decision from precedent, without examinm lig if the precedent claimed is in point. It is not au. thority, because the precedent is'not authority. We htave~, in this couintr~y, iMri. President, three spe cies of corporations, two of which no maii is bold eniogh to assert inay iiot be irepealed by act of the Legislature: First, the old English eleemocsvnarvfoi iIi at dation, designied for the support of educational and benevolent intstitutions, regulated bv the coiiimmon ).am?of England, which have ever been deemed subject to repeal by act of Parliantet. Second, municipal corporatimofs, which were always liable to repeat The first time the ri('ht was onustioned in Oio, ewa inoo the ease reported in 4th Ohio Rep., in which it was claimed that the charter of a towni was a contract, bh which the Legislature was bound, antI over whose provisions it had no control. This was claimed tipon the auithoritry of the Dartmoutn college case. The lovvri tsol eeitiidit h irsiu decision, int that case, settled the question to some inIwilntatatIiltitteitnfiitbe extent. And, third, all oither corpor ations which have b'csltitnmvotatsoei omcta for their object private gaitn, as well as public beta1 iloeblnie fie beti,t.BtIlokuo h which are only kunavn to the laws of the Untited lte a fti rvs spnitu nteetee States, atid which are the peculiar care of the courtsanIneecodvoet)idielynihitaciwhich, iii their wisdom and benevolence, have kindlycigaprnilwic Ihodtibsard Ith declared their charters cotitracts.covitoiwlstieotfmtepivsalafe etit rules of judicial construction, atad justly so; but ~ifrain to me it seemans from elst si[r. Tuhn upo n w i sdo am experience antd learning, shouild attempt to bring lathem wi thin t h e protacti ots o f the Dart tmooth case; bye, sir, and gaintlemet wo love liber ty Athe lattiber ty, adnow e qual r igb.tsishoeild at, teTept to cover these w Sate, Ie corporations by the Darteduth irle anlI th us woanufac ture chai-nos and fasten themn upon their own armis, an-d clasp thomn to thei(ir own bosoms,-. Upon, thifs point, then, Mlr. P~residen,t,, rests, my arg-u mnent. I say that the power, to create acts of inicorf potationi for any purpose not provided( for in tile Con-i stitution)Y of the tt,is -not gr!ian-ted to the Leg,isl-a t.ure', andc that all charters gr-anted fo~r anyi) other pu~r pose than~ those pr-ovided,'ar-evoid. Rem —ember-, sir, I do) niot say the Lgsaueshould iramcctielint. ely pro ceed to sweep, bv repeal, evei-v such- act, fi'om the statute book, n~or thiat the courts should at onace de clare th,Iem- totally voi.d. But I- do assert,, fully, round ly, and distin~ctly, they possess the power to do s,o, and( in so doing',, the question of property is not le gitihnatc-ly raised. There is one ground upon wh]ichl it m-ay beclaimedl that the right to create chartered comi~panies for the( purposes of works of public improvemien~ts i-,-ay-be holden by the Leg,i~slatuire. It is this, that, the L.egis lo-ttare maiy create an agent to do acts which, of itself, it has a right to do. As for ins-tan-ce: the G'~inrral .Assemnbly miay, by law, authorize the coinstrt,caton of a roa,id, ai br-idge or canial., or other public imiprov~emient,; andI~ by',he same.i power it miay als~o establish an ag,,ency, or ecomipany of,,-individu,als, w%ho nmay exercise tlice rig-iLt to construct su~chl r~oads. Buit, as the Legislature m;ay-v niot construct a road without, miak.ing an adequate. compensation for ill'individua~l injury, so tile comipany, while it receives tolls, miav not be exonerated from-i all such'liabilities as would', "in lik~e cases, attachi to individuals or the State. Doubtless the Legislature dloes, in~ this a.ne,possess power to associate welhand veist that association with various franchiises, always; subject, however, to the liabilities of individuals;'alwaiys amenable to the general laws of the State. I donotdee~ it necssay to puirsue~ the subject flirt.her, and discuiss the m-ea,sure~ of compensation, wvhich has so larg~ely entered into thre airguimients of t-hose whlo have prec-ededI me, buat will close miy remtarks by saying d tat I do not, and n-ever have, appreciated c-orporti-t'ons as highly a.; some gentlemen: I have never thought themr wvorth thanking God ftbr, or bless,ings~ in any guise, but'believe their existence to be most p riiu,and derogatory to public a-rd pri~vat,e morals,. Mar. SZAWYEIZ. It is very eviden-t, that we are dividing~. mai.ter,ially upon this miatter (,f repeal, but I hiope still that weshall be able to carryv out somiething,, that wvill' satisfy all parties. As thee quiestion- nowv st~ands, it is. very uncertain which side will gain it. Som-e of ils are in favor of an.- unconditional rep,eal to be placed in- the hands of the Leg,islaturie; and othersare oppos,ed to it, in totro. As for thec latter part of the amendmei,-nt offered a,y the gentleman firon Butlter, (Mr V'~c.E,) for mi part, I inewer will g4o for that. Itwv r, if it sh ouldt be egrf;d into the coilstitu I I 270 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 6. "Upon sIuch just and equitable terms as mav be after granted. Such a provision being ilserted will provided by law." gov,rni all cases of the kind, and remove aniiy doubts r?. S ob erv,d t t ie was willi,g to offler tbis as which may!save existed otn th subject. But so far a3 a cortmprotise, which all could vote for w\itlhout a sac- relates to charters alread(y existing, I have not thought rifice of prisciple. A numrber of radical gentlemien, it a matter of much importance whether such a proof all parties, to whomn lie had subiitted tlls propo vision is in the Constitution we are now fratniug, or sition, had told hins tl)ey would vote foi it. Dot Believil)g that as heretofore stated, the Legisla-.. Mr. THOMPSON of Shelby. Before the question ture already possess aiimple power on the subjict, antd I is taken, I wiish to say a few worlds. I have reogaried doubt very iuchli whether this Coniventionl can confer it as a question which, frorm its intrinsic importance, on the Legislature any power over pre-existing chardeserved an ela,borate consideration and discussion. ters which that body does not already possess. But at this periocl of the session and after so miuch If it is thought best however, to inssert in the Contimne occupied by this question, I wi ll not detaini the stitution, a clause declaring that the Legislature shiall Convetition but few ninutes; a)d I suppose it would lave powier to repeal charters lheretofore granted, I be but a meie work of supererogationi for me to at- am perfectly wsilling, and will vote for it, but desire termpt to say aiiything by'way of aru(rnient. I will that it shall carry with it, a provision to protect the be content. therefore, with claiming the privilege of rights and property of those who may be afiected by merely defining my position. the exercise of tlis pow'er of repeal. I am nowvy speak I regret exceediasoly that on account of a variety ing of ca.ses in w'licih the Legislature may (the pub ~ rere exeigy, tha, oi' I'. ~.....', Pl of circumstaisces, soue of the nmembers of this Con- lic good requiring it,) repeal the charter of a coipavention have beern placed in a false position before ny or association,'itliout any fault having been coImthe public; aud 1 regret the feeling which has been initted bv the colpany or ssociatioi. In cases manifested in consequence of misapprelhensiot.is grow- whlere t hl co mpa ny violates its charter, e have aling out of that state of things. ready ample provision in our Statutes for taking away I voted the other day, agailst the naked proposition, their franchises, by a proceeding inl our courts of which proposed to granit to the Legis!-ture the power justice. to repeal all charters, heretofore or hereafter granted. I But if,'ithout a violation of their charter, the did so from considerations, which, at the time, fully public good should require the repeal of any act of insatisfied my mind. I did not, however, vote the way I corporation, and the legislature should exercise the did, from any feeling of opposition to the doctrine coni- power I conceivse they have in the premises and retained in lhe clause proposed to be inserted. On the peal it, they should be required by constitutional procontrary, it has been for a number of years, (indeed I visi t do ample justice to al l who may be affected, know not how long,) my firm and settled conviction, by this appropriation of private property to public that the Legislature does now possess, atnd always has ue. possessed, to the fullest extent, the power to repeal WT have bee very careful to provide constitutional charters which have been granted by any previous guards for individuals, when their pr ivate pro pert y Legis!attire. Thtere may be some questioi, aid there shall be taken for public use, and is there any reason, Isas beeit some doubt upon my own inhid, tO whatex h a s b,e s ome,out~t upon my own.'nd,.O.lia( why the property and rights of individual corporators teat the Legislature is bound by the constitution of ti shle ot i li ofidvda rote I t United States. But, saving that, I presume that, by shol it lke maner, be protected. I t k virtue othe rtight of etietdoaiad tie provislo not I think if the members of a plank road comirt our preset corinsittiotit, dthmi all privdite r.e party pay of a turnpike company rail road company, or ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ICou r rsen w-,te cos iti o,, th'talive)oert iioray be taken for publp r ole any iesa other comoipany, have in good faith, expendes may be taken for public use when necessary, tie thecir monevr or proeietv in the legrititnate purposed Legislature has the power and right to act by way of an o r property in the legitn a.te purpo d .and ob'ects of the Incorp~orationl anld the lublic wood repeal, in every case where it may be necessary for t re a iec of thcr ad thu d'c theiro public welfare. requires a repeal of their charler, thus destroying their publ welfiist [ thus advc a t e this dctrine in its broad-existence as an incorporation, and rendering valueless But whitst r thus advocate this doctrine in its broad- ll ir expcnditures in all couscience the iega tore all their expenditures, in all con-science, the legislature est extent, I amt free to adnuit, that it always was nmy should berequired to provide themi a just conipeiisasettled coiivictioii, that the exercise of this power rezu.et tion in money. It has been asked here, why not trust be in accordance with the principles of equity a)d jus- the legislature- whynot leave themattertotheirsense tice, which we are endeavoring to guard and perpet- of justice-they will do right &Tc. I would reply by uate in the instrument which we are about to framne. askin-whynot trustthe legislature in all cases. And it was partly for the wanit of an ackiiowledgment I g for potectig all- matter whether idiid of tosepricipes,tha I ote th oter av i?UD~t I go for protecting all —no matter wh-ether indivridof those principles, that I voled the other day agaitst nals or individual corporators-sEqual and exact uals or individual co-rporators-,"Equal and exact the propositionr to which I have referred-thereby plac- justice to all, exclusive privileges to none." ing myself, in the estimation of my friends,I ill a posi. ig myself, in the estmato of my frends, in a pos I will say now, in conclusion, that I am not altotioi different from that "which I have always occupied, gether satisfied with the amendment of my friend from anld, as I trust, ever sliall occupy, with referenceto the Bntler (Mr. YANCE.) I prefer the proposition of the party to which I belong and the question at issue. getleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAw R)-and I hope gen-tleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAwy~n-r~and I hop( From the imperfect opportunity which I have had, the proposition mlay yet, be so shaped, as to be satis of attending upon the debates which have titken pace factory to all of us who believe in the doctrine of upon this subject-having been albsent part of the time repeal on account of indisposition —I had not, perhaps, con- I repeat, Mr. President lt I regret very much possessed this power of repeal, I did not suppose that briefly given my views upon this subject ad I n an acknowledgment, or declaration of that power was satisfied, there is no substantial difierence betweets necessary in the new Constlitution. It should be re- tie and the party having a majority on tlis floorcollected that we are consideriug the power of repeal that party with'shom it has ever becis niy pride atid as to pre-existing charters. I presume there is no di- my pleasure to act, and with whlch I have ever been versity of opinion atnong the tnembers, at least those identified. on t,e democratic side of this hall, in regard to the in-. If there be differences in matter of detail, with sertion of such a clause in the Constitution as to all Iyself or others on this side, I sincerely trust the acts of incorporatiolls or charters which may be here- may all be reconciled, and that we shall all be found 271 OHIO CONVE.NTION DEBATES-MoN-DtY, JANUHRY 6. s. I he is correct, no action of ours is necessary to M conLfr it. If he is wrong, we calinott confer the power, 3 Oor adC rmation of it, is entir',- i'eeient We pt might as well bid the Ohio no long,er to pay tribulte to - the Mississppi, as to attempt it. - Where, thei, is vour principle, whice you stand up r here to Diainliain?! Does the gentlem-nanl fromn Trum. a bull himiself; really believe whiat he solemnly affirmns? . I hlave no doubt of hi9 s4incerity. But how does he t show his confidence in his principli2 For, if tle principle be crriect he ntit kuow that it would be a f mere wonk ot supererogatioli to inmake such a declara tion in the Constitutioni. B,it hlie ihas confidence inl the Legislatur'! And yet hie is no, willing to trust to them to carry out his oal Demiocratic principles. He savs, ll effect, you cannot L get representatives of indefpentdence enough to rct outl ; their principles, uLless you stimuiiilate their moral , co ur age by a declaration of this Convention. Hashe confidence in the Legislature? Hle is bound to doubt themn, unless the Conventi)ron back themi up. Has he any confidence in the people? Then, wily cannot he trust them to select representatives and judges, of irn dependence enough to act jus'6lv, with'out beiig in structed by this Cornvention, whichll can add n.othing to their powers? It seems to rme, that this is goiig back again to the old theory, th!)at all the wisdom in the wide world is concentrated in this body: and that nothin)g will be done by the Legislature which we do not salnctioil ald direct. I can see no other object than a mere useless declairation of principle, if gentlemen are Siliere. I wish to b* understood upon this point distir.ctl,y. The proposition is to engraft into the Constitution thte unqualified, unlimited rignt of repealing existing ch arteis. But it is admitted that the iecisioii of the Conveition upon this questioln con.eirs io power upon the Legislature wlich does not now exist. Where than, is the necessity for making the proposed declare, tioni? If you believe that the Legislature will do thei. duty, why nlot trlqt thitni? If you have confidenice that the people will elect Representatives of suitable it) telligence ind independence, why not trust them? Or, if you believe that the people caea elect a judi ciary capable of an intelligent nnid faithful exe cutoIi of your law relative to quo varranto, why not truot them? Will you say lthat it is lnecessary that tIis principle shouild have the sanction of this Conivenion., in order to make them do their duty' In relation to future corporations, wvilit tlhe genitle tman from Hamilton, who addressed the convpenition hiir morning. I have no doubt that it is thle intention of the conivention to declare the pow.,r of legislative repeal. Thlis principle will, no doubt becone a part p.P lle, cofi opwrfrn'e cbi, phnt elr of e very charter hereafter to be grated, sto a thfi the right of repeal beyond all que:stion. Whetlherwe shall agree as too the maeicoidrini wpooele tpois power is to be confer red, i know not. e -) far a9 I amt conce rned, I believe it ought generally to exist, but the point of d fficult y is not in asserting the power, but in dceterminiing the mnaniner and conditions of its exercise. But the question now is, shall w-re, do an act which conifers no power, for no other reason, thlaln to declare a prinlciple, inl ord(er to encouragre th~e peotsle and their represenltatives hereafter to do whlat tlle~y have the power to do writhlout our sanctionl. For one I amn willing to trus,t the people to felect mrenl who will carry out correct princtiples. Bult I ask aoarf,tr what is to be, ainled by the,:lrs preposed. i believe I have represenlted thle 0osition of m-emlbers truly. It seems to mle thlen, that when you put intto t~he constitution a pr inciple which conflicts with the construction of +the constitution of the United States, as intserpreted b~y the highlest juldicial tri casting our votes for the same important princples Mr. HITCiICOOK, of Cuyahoga. It is not, m) purpose to detain tihe Conivern,,ioai'onr, with reni:,;- s upon this question. My object is, for a momnent or two, to allude- to what I suppose to be the real differ eitce between us, and to inquimre illto the practical ob ject to be gained by conlltilnuing this controversy, or by adopt ing the p roposition whic h is urged upon rs througl a reconideration of to f te voe of Friday last Sir, o the rel ispute is not whett e r tehis right ot repeal shall be recoundized, ovith reference to future corporation s, as contemplated in the aiiiteenrnenht of the gertleinan from Autglaize, [Mr. S,t wyiEt.,] f or I do not underst and th at ge n tle man as offerinH l his amaend ment wgit h a a?v idea that it is to have any effect upon existing corporations. I understand hibu to regard that branch o f the qu estion to be enatirely waived in his amendment. But the que s tion we have before us to-day, and that under consid o ation on Sa turday last, was thLi e question of thea exercise of the power of re peal wsi t h reference to the charters of existingh corpolt atienis. Nowv, hown is tha t question sustained, an,d what is the issue between uss? A portiotn of the member s upon this foor, who are undoubt edly s incere, advoca thete proposition, that th e L egislature have, independently of any authority which might be given by this body, the r ight of re - peal, absolutely and ullnqualfiedly. Th e gentlere,aan from Shelby [Mr.'l'no.sP,-oN-,] who has just now so clearly expressed himpself, tool: that grouond, if I uI derstood him correctly. There is another portion of this Convenition, who be l ieve that it is futile to carr y up this questi(on aetainn to t he Supr em e Cou rt of t he Unit e d rStates, since that Courtan an d all te other ourts in the Uoer io rt s in ha e Ui he de cide( it repeat edly for a series of years past, to that there ca n be no possible question as t o wh at would be the result there. It occurs also to this portion of the body, that, since we have sworn to sulpport the Constitution of the United States, if w(e shoulld put into the Constitution which we are to frame, a provi siotl co nflicti i ng with the Constitution of the Unlited States, we shal be bound to oppose th)e nlewv Cons,ti tution, so long as we act officially. Now. why is it, that gentlemen who advocate this unqualified power of repeal, will underta. ke to urge their proposition upon those who oppose it with the belief, that, if it is adopted, they will be' botutid by their oath, to oppose the new Constitutioni? What is to be gained by such a course? Have they no confidence in the power of their own principles? The gentleman fi'om Trmubull (Mr. tRAN,YEY,) told us the other day, that, when we come to the protection of the rights of corporations, we dare not trust the Legislature-iwe had no confidenice in that body! Sir, I hurlback the charge upon that gentleman. The charge does not attach to our side, but to yot. You have no confidence in the Legislature. You will not trust it to exercise the powers belonging to it. And not only have you no confidence ill the Legislature, but you have no confidence in your own principles, when you say tlle power of unrquialified repeal has always existed. anld yet insist tipon inserting it here, when you admit that coulld have n~o effect. Nor have you any conlfidence in the people, thlat they will judgele correctly inl the selectionl of thleir agents and representativres to admainister the powers of Govelrrnment. YWhat is the object of t~he re-consideration proposed?0 It its t~o engraft, inlto the Conlstit~ution a declaration} of the right of unrconditionlal repeal, wit, respect to all acts of incorporation. But the genlt.lemuanr omr Trumbulll hia- always mainltainled thlat right to ex~ist. t t t t t, t i c c I p i t 0 r s b b d c 272 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MMoN^AY, JANUARY 6. bunal in the country, and one which was established for the very purpise of settling these quest;oni me-b-a provision whiich di.y onfit. vili tlih opinion of such mn as Martha3, Tra cy, Daniiels and Woodbiiry, who have each of thea0 declared that these cliarteimrs are not sub,ect to repeal —you necessarilvraise opposition to your constitti,i,n. Every man, of course, must have his own views of duty. I have mine; ani(, as at present advised, I ii-ust say that the oath which you required me to take at the commencement of the session will comUpel in- to oppose it, if tidis clause be put into it. Others w'Il undoubtedly pursue the same cours —and lle onlyT practical result which I can see that is likely to amise fioom putting in this clause, is that about,one hal f,or little a more than one half of the members upon ihi i or, in ust feel more or less con strained by a re'a(1 fo. their oath, to oppose the new constitutoil. And.id have heardit whispered, (though I do not belicve it,) that thit was the object-to force ,us to take antr1ouhstic giroud. But if this is true, let geoitleeii say so. Wewill not desert our p igs ti, You may make your constitution just as you please to make it. Appogii, your committee and let theii do it. It will not take more than three or four days. And then whm., you shall come in with your constitution, it will be known that we must oppose it, because of your amendment;, whi,ch we cacieot endorse. It seemns',o me tlia-~,lie only practical result of the course proposei, i3 to create opposition to the Consti - tution; while I con,'ess that I do not believe that any gentlemac on the- e; do of the ciaoeer centert ai n aniything likes ci a de-;ign. But meay we not, ask that we be not fo'ced to take a hostile position? May we not rather hope tha soet, hin like the proposi tion of the f'eiiri('?aa from AnIlaize a appli cabl e onl a to future acts of i:iioiporation, will be adopted, and that gentlenian will consent at once to let alone this bone of cotitirntionitt I submit to the Conven-ti-on, that here is a consider ation that oghlit "o be well weigbed by all; namely; that there cati b no practical result fil!owing from the introduction of this principle, beyond that of ar raying a lare portion of the Conivctionii and of the people, agalinttth Coiistitution. I (o not say that I will do arly hint torward de,feating it myself; but with this pincip ie in it, catuict with riy present views of diitv suippor hyt it. I have riot beet. di.sposed tco go into any of the rea sons governing my opiison, on the subject of there ealability of exis i-')' chiarters. This subject i sas eeii well discussed by others. I only interd ed to present a few practica[ views upon the que sti on of strking out. Fromr the -beg'inni,2g of this discussion to this mo ment, I have riot babe: ablo kTeep out of my mind the inquiry as e' t good can come of it. I should regret exceedi;.ngy beo lid imyself forced into an atti tude of hos,ility. I should Dc very sorry not to sup port this Const it-. i I have labored fortlie calliugiod of this Con vih iii i 0' fifteen ycars. I have labored for this qotedt toeu de mocrats and whifes have op posed it; beca-tcse I thoughit I-hat the old Conistitution of you,mr opinion, why, b p tse t got toge ther in a polit ical !nie,-,ting and pass a. resohuto in proper- formj.i; but let i tnve hn Ive, wino telt th Coge e ln's, uin. W Ad a at at s ad vis e, o shbe all vote for theu tattheidment of the genitlhtn sopi m Byo u ee o tler; and if that ie defeated, it will remain fo~r me to de~terminie what eourse I orhall becu I is in tvt forthe prisciple of th e r n qualiti " Infied repeatability of charteins. cannot vote fo r the ionstti b ittira, with such a clause ill it; abcid I do not believe that a mlo rit y of th e people would support it. Mr. REF,MAELIN. For teieof m-e I cann~ot cormpreq end the conaetime f th e oosisten o f the rsa eiionu on dei aud~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ so tia by a-ag uibro eort;cag o u ui~BtI o n,myb peiit man fr om nuilein ah, ( frcr. H ITCHCOCK.) I nmy have tmisunder tt o d him, budt understood him to adit tile right of respectfl whenever c righe m.uoi lic good requires it. Mr. HIT'CHCOCK. The gentleman -misconceives rae; w yat I scid was,ntha t thse gentleman and his friends claimed that th-e righ-t of repeal existed any how, wh ether asserted in tte Constitution or not; a nd Ielva a dmit wto be s f iit is by its ionder i it toseth latg e organic law. Mr. REE-MELIN. Ali, is that it? worse, even, than I expected. The gentleman tells us, in so mranly words, that we claim the rigzht of repeal to exist, evea without constitutional provision. And therefore, he ,,,aiys,-there is no reason for its assertion in the consti tuition. I will test the gentlemian's sincerity. What will you do in ea,.e we f'ail to assert it, and still exercise the right o" repeal? Thle gen,tlemani is silent. I can tell you, if fie will not. He would argue, as the attorney of aecorporation, tha,t, the right of repeal not having been asserted in Ilhe constitution, it was a part of the contract between the corporation and the State, that it should riot be repealed. It is thus th~at the demirocraitic party has been treated in the legislative hall,,. Whlen they had a riaji'oity, the whigs would meet them with the sophism "you Deed not insert the right of- repeal because itis inhieren~t in the- Legislature." But in ease'- the democrats met the attorneys of corporations in courts, or- in legislative halls-for what are tiley but attorneys for corp~orationis-theii they would be told, "you failed to assert the right at tile timie the ch~arter was granited —the, words are not ini thle bond, and therefore, you ar-e debarred from the right to repeal." The genitlemian mray exclaim cui bono, or in in hi., yanikee~ tranislaitioni, ",what is to be gain ted?" I answer him, that a great deal is to gained always by the assertion of a correct principle; and especia,lly in this instance is there a great deal to be gained for the people and their righits, by gustrling-, and aivoidingz, if possible, the miscoIIstruerions of courts upon this sectioni. That is v,hit I desire. Courts have decided corporations to, be contracts, and therefore, irrepealable by the party that gra.nted hth contract. I wish to m,-eet such deeisious of the courts, bv a frank und uequivoca~l avowal that we hold ihose decisions to be wroing, that our lanvu iage in thiis 35thi, section, shall not be. niiseniistrued, tibet chiarters are not contracts, and that they are repealabl,e. Fi-rom this cou-rse the opposite. side are endeavoring, to frighiten us, by herald~ing th~rough ~thiese hails, the, ghost of Chief Justice Mar-shall. Decision upoil decms 273 274 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 6. toijished, the othier day, when the gentleman from Bel- osition speak for itself. It means that the State mont, (Mr KENNON,) prided lilliself upon the efficient should pay for it; and I ask my friend from Monroe, support lie had reiidere(i to Gei. JackIsekols s dmnilliitra- whether lie is wiillinrgto tax his constituents for re tion, to find him Siow quoting tle decisions of that same pealing a turnpike charter ill Haliilton county, for Supreiime Court, again.t wlose decisions Ger Jckson the sole benefitof Hamilton county. and the deriocracv fought, add coiiquered,alter a pro- Mr. ARCHBOLD. 1 will answer the gentleman tracted struggle. I was astonished to finid that gentle- wheni hlie is through niaii (ir. K.) with whose assistance we had made the AMr. REEMIELIN. Or take another instance. There d(ecisionII o thie coiistituti)onality of a U. S. Baijk an obso- is in this city agas company, which enjoys the exclu lete idea, now quoting that saiie Suilreilme Court to sive privilege of laying gas-pipes, and of retailing frigliten us fron an assertion of all holiest principle, ill gas to the people and to the city; accordiug to its spite of its decisioiis. In the coetest between General charter, no other person can sell gas here besides Jackson and tihe U. S. Bautik, nothilt- was ofteier urged that company, and in consequence of this privilege, against that illustrious hero, than the fact that he was its stock is something like fifty per cent above par. I endeavoring to set' his will against the decisions of tie task my colleague what he would do, in case that Supremie Court of the Uiiitet States. "TheConstitu- charter was repealed? would he again send out the tioi as I understand it," was a by-word and a reproach jury, or would he pay them the fifty peer cent above ill the mouths of whig stuinpers, and ill the columnis of par?'llnat charter is granted for carrying on a legal whilg newspapers. But the Democracy, under the lead business, and under the construction given by my of Gen. Jackson, laughed all such attacks to scorn. We colleague this morning, is a legal charter. Thatcomn have rendered the decision of the constitutionality of a party has not violated a sinlee provision of its char U. S. Bank, ain obsolete idea, and so will we, on the! ter, anid I again ask him, (Mr. G.,) would hlie, to use questioll now in debate, ultimately conquer, if we only his own language, "make the parties whole?" adhere, undismayed. to at honest principle. Mr. GROESBECK. I have not examined that char Sir, to use a figure of speech eiiiployed by Joan' ter, but I understand it to be the opinion of eminent VAN Buaax, ill one of his great speeches in New legal gentlemen, of this city that, their charter is not York, let me say, that, although weighed down bly a binding contract. At any rate, I would not pay the the personal influence of tihe gentleman from Belmonot, premium; I would leave them the property and per (Mr. KEN.xo,)-sought to be intimidated bv the po- mit them to pursue their business without a charter. toIt influence of the Supreme Court-althoiigh we Mr. REEMFELIN. I thought, Mr. President, that may be forsaken by some of our friends, I have confi- wlhen it came to the point, gentlemen would back deuce in the future; for I see a spirit of liberty walk- square out of their propositions. I ask my colleague, ilig upoii the waters, beckoning to the honest dcmoc- is that "msakiing men whiole?" racy, be not afraid, it is I, (applause.) The exclusive right to lay pipes in the streets, I am sorry to have digressed, in following the dcvi- which is granted to that company for a series of years, ous course of those who have preceded me, even by the terms of their charter, makes their stockl as thus far from the question. valuable as it is. Repeal their act of incorporation, I will look at the distinct question nown in debate. and their stock, which is worth $150, to-day, will be The proposition that the State, on the exercise of the worth but $50, the moment you bring that conipaily right of repeal, shall pay for the property held by the in fair competition with other gas nimantfactories. corporation at the time of repeal. T'le viewvs of geri- Mr. GRIEN, of RItoss. I ask whether the gentletiemeni framing,this proposition, are various. Somie man from Hamilton is willing to pay the full value of contend that the franchise is property, and wvhlien the stock-that is, will he pay the ten or fifty per they talk of paying for property, they mean that the cent above par? State shall not only pay for the tangible property on Mr. REEMELIN. The gentleman from Ross is a hand, but also for the value of the franchise. Othliers, clear-lheicaded man, and withlal, consistent upon this again, contend that a franclhise is not property, and question, and I have no doubt, he would pay the full that in voting for the proposition, they mean only to amount. pay for such tangible property as mlay be found inl Mr. GREEN. But we want to kuow what the geIthe hands of the corporationl at the date of the repeal tiernan from Hamilton would do? of its charter. For tihe purpose of understanding Mr. REEMLELIN. I answer, that if I believed in each other fully, I will take it for granted that my your principle, I would pay for the last cent of value; colleague, (Mr. GaoSBrECK,) holds the first position, I would inot only pay the men for the tangible properat least if 1 understand correctly his allegory of "the ty taken, but I would pay the Harrison Turnpike brandy and water," which he exhibited to us this company, which I have mentioned, the thirty-six morning. thousanid dollars additional, and I would pay the Gas Mr. GROESBECK. Mv colleague misunderstands I company fifty per cent above par on their stock. That me entirely. is what I call "making men whole." Mr. REEMELIN. I am trying to get at t;he spirit, But, sir, I desire to call the attention of my friend although I acknowledge, there was but little spirit in from Monroe, (Mr. AacIItoLD,) who distinctly antheapplication, (laughter.) But, lest we imisunder- nounced, the other day that he would vote forthe prostaud each other, let us take a case in point; take, position under consideration, (that of Mr. VANCE, of for instance, the turnpike running from Cincintiati to Butler,) to the admitted results that I have just drawn the town of Harrison. In this turnpike, the State out from gentlemen all over the Hal]. I call to his has $86,000, and the individual stockholders the mind his able report relative to the Toledo Plaiikroad same atnount. By what rule would my colleague company made in the Senate of Ohio, ill the session measure the compensation to be made to that compa of 1848, in which he distinctly opposed the connecny, in case of a repeal of its charter? Would lie val- tion of any stipulation with the affirmance of the ue the stone upon the road, and the toll-houses, or right of repeal, succh as is contained it) the proposiwould hle ilciude the franchise? tioii now ill debate. Will he now unsay what he then Mr. GROESBECK. I would send out a jury to said? Will he now say that thc State Treasury value it altogether. slould, by repealing, buy up Turnpikes, Plankroads, Mr. REEMELIN. And who should paythe value Railroads and Gas companies: has lie, I ask, in view thus ascertained? MY clleague is silent; let the prop- of that report wherein he so clearly defined the tax OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 6. ing power, is he now ready to tax his constituents for purposes such as these? The bare possibility of such a thing happening in the case of the Plankroad com pany referred to, then aroused all his energies, all his opposition, though the whole amount that could have been claimed in that case (of the Toledo Plankroad) would have been one hundred thousand dollars. Really sir, I cannot see how the gentleman fromMonroe can be found in league with a proposition whose re sults you can only estimate by millions! Every unproductive railroad, every unprofitable turnpike, will be thrown upon the State, and the " plander law," so manfully and so successfully warred upon by the gentleman from Monroe, will be t revived in its worst form. Yea, sir, I see plainly that it will lead to the assumption of the debts of cities, of counties, and of townships, by the State. The section of this Constitution prohibiting any further creation of a State debt, will at once be overleaped by the provision now under consideration, and we will not only suffer from the granting of charters, but we will suffer far worse by their repeal!! I look upon the proposition before me, as explained by its friends, as nothing more nor less than a pre mium upon that policy that robs the people of its rights. But I perceive that my friend from Butler (MAr. VANCE), is becoming impatient, for hlie has repeatedly said to me, during the few remarks I have just made, that such is not the interpretation of his amendment. I listened. the other day, very attentively to that gentleman's speech. and I have, with equal care, examined his amendment. I find that while the language of his amendment and its obvious intent, looks only to remuneration for tangible property, such as individuals own, still there is a squinting towprds recognizing the franchise as property, and paying for the value of that franchise. For instance, in the case of a bridge conm. pany, my friend would certainly not insist that to pay it for the lumber and stone abutments, would be such a remuneration as he should consider just, in case of a repeal of the charter of that company. I look upon l his position, therefore, as being involved in some doubt; but he will certainly admit that the friends of his pro position have almost unanimously given it theconstruction upon which I have animadverted. Take, however, the strictest construction of the proposition of my friend freiii Butler, and how will the matter stand then? Take, for instance, the repeal of the charter of the H arrison Turnpike Company; you repeal it, your proposi. tion provides that the value of its property shall be assessed by a jury and paid for. The property of that Turnpike Company, excluding its franchise, would not be valued at twenty thousand dollars-still its true value is something like one hundred and seventy thousand dollars. Such would be the result with that Company, if only the tangible property was taken into consideration. AgaiD, take the Gas company of Cincinnati, to which I have already alluded.'Yon simply repeal it, leaving them as private business men to dispose of their gas as best they may, taking away the exclusiveness of their privileges-you leave them their whole establishment-their gaspipes and their gas fixtures and all the apparatus connected therewith. You take no property, what would be the amount of compensation to be awarded in that case under a strict construction of the amendment of the gentleman from Butler (Mr. VANcE.) All you took was the franchise-ho that you would not value-still it is valuable, and by taking that franchise you would render men who are worth to-day, perhaps a hundred thousand dollars, worth but ten thousand dollars to-morrow! You have taiken value, to be sure it is but constructive val 19 ue, still it was taken by you and would not be paid, if the strict constructi o n of t he a men dment last made should prevail. The result would be the same wh en applied to railroads, and, when applied to other corpor at i ons, w ould be stiol more disastrous. I say ther efore that the a me ndment a s c onstrued by far the largest portion of his friends i s unsa fe for the state, and if construed strictly —not construing the franchise as property-then your amendment is un safe for the corporations. In either case good policy dictates to every delegate in this convention, that he should vote against it. In addition permit me to say, that I still adhere to the point, that I made a few days ago-you cannot adopt a qualifying, iron rule with regard to the right of repeal, which will not in many itnstances prove dis astrously unjust, either to the State or to the corpora tion. The objects, the interests, the different pursuits, the mode of conducting, as well as the localities of our corporations, are so various that no one rule can apply to all. The rule as to property which you (turning to Mr. VANCE,) have offered with reference to property, would undoubtedlv work well with reference to a church corporation, for there, surely, the property should either vest in the individual corporators, or, if taken, be paid for at its full value by the state. In other instances, if you would refuse to pay for the franchise, you would commit gross injustice upon the corporation, as, for instance, in the case of turnpike, railroad and bridge companies, who had not violated their charters, but had clearly fulfilled the purposes for which they were created. Again, as in the case of the Sandusky turnpike Company, the bank of Gallipolis, the Ohio Railroad Company, or other corporations. that have used their powers for mischief only, I would repeal them without making them one cOnt or compensation either for prop erty or franchises. The General Assembly must in each case furnish the special rule. The right of repeal will be but seldom, and must be carefully exercised, and whether the General Assembly be acting against a fraudulent corporation, or one of a different charac ter, all the rule that we should adopt, is, that the right of repeal should be exercised upon just and equitable terms in each particular case. Mr. President, a few words in reference to another matter. I cannot permit the occasion to pass without replying to the little episode made this morning by the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. STANBERY.) And I wish the few remarks I shall make, to apply also, to the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE.) The gentleman from Franklin stept out of his way this morning and followed me, in his remarks, to my hotel. I hope you will not take it unkindly, if I follow him to the same place, for I find that he was there (at the Burnet liouse ) the other evening. I re-d this morning the little speech he made at the " Booktrade supper." In that speech he called the members of this convention "Book makers " and for the purpose, as I suppose, of proving his identity with the other members of this body, he turned book-maker this mortiingand helped us to make a few pages. (Laughter.) Now, all I ask the gentlem-nan, is, how will he feel, if hereafter one of hie little boys, in searching for the evidences of his father's eminence, should happen to stumble upon the part of the book, which he made this morninlg,and which refers to the hotel at which I board? Would he not [eel as if his boy spoke right and true, if he should, book in hand, look;ing slyly up at hiqtfall daddy, say: "Papa, you was a demagogue, then.'} [Laughter]. 1 ask the gentleman, [Mr. S?ANBEr. r] whether he will hereafter look with any sort of pride upon that kind of'book-makinlg,"' and whether he will say, when he hands our "book" to his children, 275 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 6. ,,I I(e,ave y,oti a l~~ttle Ino,)k, Allow me to remark to the gentleman from Hiamil IPer yea to h~ck er-oni; TFatry(,a nts nec your father's re toei, (Mr. Rp:,i,:mELIN,) who is so assiduous in cracking ,iThat you ma,ee youir father-'s face, When he is dead and goiie." (Ren,ewed liu,,hte. his pa,rty whip, and so k,'en scented on the track of .,ttwhat lIe- considers heterodox Demnocracy, that he ilay. But, seriously, I ask whether this kind of book-mak h' ra ing, is not beneath the dignity, even, of the gentlemar have been guilty of a. breach of the party cree.; from Franklin? What has my hotel to do with th for resolyton to he Demorte s question before us? What have its marble bels, its its ottoman-, its good beef, or its brandy, touo bled in Columbus on the foirth of July last, that the collsction of all dues to the state should be made in with the argounent l gold and silver. This miiay or may not have been the that lhe was personilfying before us, poor Oge, o! Penn-tin Sir,I tough win I imtned o te getlean"case, I-,tt if so the genjtlemrian (lid a very undemocratic, thvatnie, whos I~ersotiifyg before us,ipooriOgle, iof Pe nnth in,,, for, by a law, all collections are to be deposited syivaniii, wh-ose, close inquiries into the furniture of -e it se me batik. These banks would derive an innthe White House, have givein him no u nenviable rep ise benefit from receiving deposits in gold and utation. It reminds me of a remark of Senator Allen,.iI-r and paying out their aper none that,of all diemagogues, the whig demai~gogues,,un'l... -n-.n'pY: hog thin as it may, it is tunie that gentlemen learned the lowest. and were the most vindictive." that there are men on this side te chamber who can Mr. KE~ N NON. eithe gentlemao from ihiiitilto' neither be d en or sighte in neasures that re[Mr. RFFMELI;ZN, has taken the liberty of alluding to eiive a 'aive not the approbation of judgment and calm reamne —to m-y principles, and my inotives —or rather the c influences which he sees-or thinks tie sees-operating r on uponi my mind. I have, been denounced its the exoni- l.REMLNAfewodonyirel.Te 'plarof tm md have,,stand-stillpoulicy. " its the g,ntleman (Mr. KENNON,) is incorrect in reference to th" te Fourth of July resolutions-tthey had no reference Now, I do not affect to be entirely indifferent to the to the collection of tie State revenu nor to their dedenunciations which, in the course of this argument, have been thickly showered upon those members who memst anywbere-il they provided for was that tie arern obe. f the Board of Public Works shouild pay are not prepared to vote for the unqualilied right ot re out to the laborers of the State gold aud silver only. peal; the repeal ofall charters —those now existing, as I ne'he r intioduced nor reported tiem, hut I approve well as those hereatter granted. I would rather they tl~ei heartily and voted for them ii convention. I shiould not have been made. i eriyadvtdfrt(,ni ovnin s honored the man who dmi introduce thieii, for I trust It has been remarked that if, beforc the election for it will ere long be the settled policy of the State. delegates to this Convention. I liad declared that I The gentleman has also misi presented me as to my should be controlled or influ(nnced even by the de po:tion in reference to his support of General Jackcisions of Judge Marshall and of the Suprceme Court son's Wdmiistration. What 1 said was thiat the main of the United states against the doctrine of the re- opposition on the part of the winigs to that':adminispealabiiii ef charters, id for the doctrine that a tration was. that the President disregarded the decischarter is a contract., I could inrot have beCen elected ions of the Supreme Court. I said that in this disrntlo a seat in this Convention. This forces ine to nake gard the gentleman from Belmont firmly suin,taiined tie a single remark with regard to nmy electior. I was administration not a candidate for niointinatioi, did not desire it anid; 3ir. KEN~NON. General Jackson never advocated never even accepted the inominition. But, without the i gbt o f nepeal. unl knowledge, I was taken -up and notiniitect- r lEMLLIN liedid tintproposetorepealtthe without ipposniton, I b lieve —nd (lc( ted without United States Batnik, but he removed the "deposites," any agency of mine in the matter from fir to last. which were in that bank, and for which, as the whi gs But, sir, as to yiv dheleucc to thie decisions of claio, that bank had given a consideration. Atid I Chief Justice Marshall, I am misrepresented. What repeat that it was in direct contravention of the known I didI say is this:'lie Supreime Court of the United decis'ocs of the Supreme Court, that General Jackson States has repeatedly and. eifoitinly decided that removed its deposits and vetoed the Bank of the LTiiicharters are "contracts," within the mcaninig a]d" ted States. What else (lid ine repeal it for, but upon terns of the federal constitution. Thmat constitution the Qtuestion of its unconstitutionality? declares that no St,ate shall ~ass laws impainprg tine Mr. KENNON. General Jackson, in his message, obligation of "contracts." flierecfre I say this Con- states that had he been asked be would have drafted a venioin can confer no unilintited power upoti tie Leg- charter for a constitutional bank. isiature unqualifiedly to repeal all "conitracts' Tio l4r. BlEEMELIN. Has it indeed come to this, that adopt a provision purporting to confer such power the man who, in this Conveiition, prides himself oil would, therefore, be to make an ninonstitutici. lon- the friendship he etiioyed with Geeeral Jackson, catn stitution, which I, for one, whether denounced on stand ip ber e and, in contradictioc of a letter yet exthe cc hand or flattered on thie other, will have 1nc taint and under thin sign-manual of that illustriois hand in doing. heir{, say that by that phrase in his veto message Gen I expressly declined malking any expression of etal Jackson meant a bank? 1 can.iot suppose thie o)iioen either for or against the doctriie aserted b gentleman ignorant of the fact, that Genera.l Jackson Chief Justice Marshall in the Dartmouth College cas ass flatlv denied tine charge, and I can but consider nid I also declined approving or condemnitig tin uni- it as a base slander of his memory. form decisoions of the Supreme Coiurt, that charters Mr. KENNON. General lackson vetoed tihe Uitaare "contiracts. I simply stated that that highesn ted States Bank in the exercise:af his ecinstitutionatt court had so decndcd, atid I ventured the opinion that right —therein I supported hini it would so decide for fifty years ic come. Mr. ARC~HBOLD expressed anssent, and said that I also stated that in cases where cor porations had the unoinster institution was to the last degree inexpein ainy way violated their charters, ~t.hose charters dient. were void, and would be so ileclared-not by the Leg- Mr. REEAiELIN. Oh How fatal ars all steps islatore bet by tine Courts. And I further said that from tine straight path of duty!! Here is a man, (lookthe Legislature was tine worst trlbunitl in the State for itig towards Judge Kr.NNroN,) growin gray in the service ascertaining and deciding facts. Tho Judicial depart of Democracy, whose brightest laurels were won ini meat is the proper tribunal. that great contest between a haughty Supreme Court 276 OHIIO CONVE'NTION DEBATES —TU:ESDAT, JA^UARy 7. and the honest President of the people. T'hat same Mr. LEECIH presented a petition from Charles Arman would now strip himself of all his laurels, for the morb an forty other citizens of Guerasey county.pray. purpose of avoiding the point in aquestion that tells fa- ing that a clause be inserted ii the new Constitution tally agaii~st tl~e position0to wki,:h he nuw f;i,ci,~ co,,- pr,::;iL',t~,~g.:;::C~'~~ii-~ncr,: mL~y L o:~ ccatlig any mitted. He would reduce the bright page of the his. Bank ug institutions, or authorizing in any manner the tory of General Jackson —and of his own, from a bal- emission of paper promises or "bills of credit" intended tie upuli the constitutionality of the United States to circulate as money. Bank into a mere fight upon a question of expediency! Referred to the Committee on Banking and Carretn Sir, the gentleman may doff his plumes of his for- ey. mer contest if they remind him of this which h( re- Mr. L.AWRENCE presented a petition from Wsliimembers now, only as the counterpart of his present liai Douglass, and niinety other citizens of Guernsey position.. But iie shall not doff aoy of the laurels that county, praying that a clause be inserted in the inew encirc-le the brows of General Jackson. I repeat that Constitution prohibitiug lhe Legislature from passing the contest then was, whether the decision of the Su- any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors. preme Court of the United States should be consider- Mr. CHANEY presented a petition from Joseph ed like the decrees of rate-imioveable and nuchauge Baughman, and twenty-one other citizens of Fairfield able. Jackson held the position that thi decrees of county, on the same subject. that Court Ph,uld be obeyed while they existed, but Said petitions were severally referred to the Select reversed by the edict of the people as 0on as possible. Committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. He put his own honest construction of the Coustitu - Mr. MORRIS presented eighteen petitions from T. tion against that of the Supreme Court, and sir, the A. Parrish, and five hundred other citizens of t)hlo, people of the United S tates including the gentlemani praying that the new Coustitution may embody a trom 1'.elmont shouted amen to his efforts. The gent- clause granting speedy justice to all persons. tieman from Belmont thef refused to be cowed bv the Referred to the Standing Conimittee on Miscellaadecisions of that Court-lie then assisted General Jack- eous subjects and propositions. .son,and lie has no right to intimidate us by quoting the Mr. fHUMPHREVILL14 in accordance with predecisions of that Suprenie Court. Jackson and the vious notice submitted the following: people conquered then, and so will the people and the "R es,l,.,d. That the 5thi standiig rule of this ConyoptiOn right of repeal conquer in this struggle, if we, their be, andt y 0 amended. that a call of the Ire servants wiil but inflexibly and undismayed, assert tie imious qu estion sustai ned, hbring [the Con ven tiond tt, a:t 'imm3i~ediate vote on the( question thein under considersetie j, t-,u't doctrine. shall extend no further." On motion, by Mr. Lidey, the Convention then ad On motiowa of the same' gen tt maitte I Ruresolution jotirne( a e erd t h.StidnCmite jotirne(!. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~was referred to the. Staniding Comnmittee on Rules. On motion of Mr. HAWKINS tile Convention aiin EIGfHTIY-FIRST DAY toolk up the Report of the Committee on the Legisier T;t'snAY, January 7, 1851. tive Department with the pending amendments. 9 o'CLOCK, A. M. The question then being on Mr. HARD'S motion to The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. I-'rayer by the Rev. Air. Presley On motion of Mr. GREEN of Ross, the report.,til peniding amendments were Jai' oin the table. Mr. BATES presented a petition from George W. Matthews. and one hundred and thirty-eight other Mr HOLTrmoved to recosiser the vote by w-nner tile Convention refused to amend Sec. 35, of the report iy,,en of Jeffrerson coun~rty, praying that a clause be in- mt tserted in the new Constitutioi prohibiting the Legis If the Comitee on the Legislative Department by tature from passing any law legalizing traflic in spirt triking out the word "retro-active" arid iusering iii nuns liquors. presented lieu of tie same the words "ex post flicto." Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from Newton On motion of Mr. ARCHBOLD, the motion was MNciillen, and twenty-nine other citizens of Clinton laid on the table. county, oui tihe same subject. On motion of the same gentleman, the Convention S'id petitions were severally referred to the Com- again took up the report of the Committee on the Legruittee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. islative Department witti the pending amendments. Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from Jeremiah The question then beiiigoii the motion of Mr. HARD T. Ilaughey, and one hundred and tweuty-four other to re-consider. citizens of Ohio, on the same subject, which was read Mr. ARCHBOLD said that lie had not intended furat the Secretary's desk and referred to the CGnmmittee tter to d&bate this question, and should not have done on the subject of retailing ardeot spirits. so, but for the argument made yesterday, by tile gea Mr. VWTAY presented a petition from Sarah Ogleby, tieman from Hamilton, [Mr. RzaEMRLIN,] in which hliad and twet y-tliree other females of Mouroe county, On been brouglht up tihe duty of members of this body, as the same,subect representatives of' a constituency to which they were Th,,e ga n, e n tedi a petition from John respousible. It was if, vain tIo conceal that party soirit . Cox, anK ] for,.ly-fi,tier citizens of Monroe couii- had been inii,olted ii this body, as the means of ty, ott tihe sat.r-.e soul,j, ct. carrying forward plans, that otherwise could niot be Te igres,;t,d a petition from Jolin successlul, auid of establishing principles that otherwise t...srs, ci toriy-four otlier cit;aeus of Monroe county, could not prevail. eii lie Salne ~sibjeci Mr. A. proceeded to remark upon the great tiecessi Mi'. W,,ORTH'1INGTrON presented sundry petitions ty there was for the Democratic party, as represented from Elizabeth Dray. Washington Simipsoi-i aiid uricin this convention, to exercise a spirit of moderation hundred and sixty-eight others, residents of Ross couii- and mutoal forbearance. That party was not stronty on the same subject. Mr. TfO~'ASON of Stark, presented a petition enough, either in the State, or in this chamber, to be fro DanielON GoiSball, asntd sixty oheritizensofStarkn able to denounce as heretics and corrupt men, tlihos from Daniel Getsh all, and sixty other citizens of Stark democrats who entertained views not entertained by county, on the same tubject.t Said petity, io were severally referred to the Corn- the enemies of all public improvements by the people. Said petltio~~~~~~~~s The twelve (a inimber full ufapustolic significance,) eilttee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. T emocrlve (a thie fullr ofwho swouldnotgvotecto co) Idemocrats upon this floor, who Would not vote to con ,.277 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 7. fer upon the legislature, unlimited authority to repeal' gentleman from Franklin, "thank God, that the State a!l charters-present and prospective-would vote with is or is to be slnegled over with acts of incorporation'," their brethren, on the subject of currency, on almost but I will say that I am convinced that Ohio owes every question, indeed, but they could not be driven much of her presenit wealth and prosperity to thile facil into the support of measures, which did not comniaud ities for thile settlement of her territory and thile devel the approval of either their judgments, or their con- opement of her vast resources, afforded by association-i sciences. But, if the majority undertook tocarry their of incorporated wealth. No man, sir, who has grown inotions of African, of Turkish despotism, into this up in the midst of the vast system of itnprovemneils constitutioni, they (Mr. A., and those whose opinions which for years has been going on inll this State under accorded with his,) had Do sympathy with the bantling, the influence of these associations, who has eeni the they disclaimed all paternity. He should proclaim construction of turnpikes and railroads, and all &le against such a constitution, War! War!! War!!! conlvenliences and luxuries ol' civilized lifespringinrg up If they were forced into this conflict, in defence of the from their action, canll stand up here and say in his rights and interests of the people, of the newer and less heart that he is ready to destroy all these influences, to favored portions of the State, who only asked the right put a stop to all these actions. On the other hand, sir, to develope the resources of the country, by means of I am not blind to the incidental evils of incorporateins. public works, constructed by asi ociations of individual I know too well the evil effects that in too many eases labor and capital, they should cry, have resulted from thenm, and that still continue to "Lay on, lay on Mlacduff! exist in this State; but these are but iticideiital evils And damned be he, who first cries, hold! Enough!" they are not the necessary concomitants of corporaThey had the sense of right and the physical constitu- tions, and may, and 1 hope will be, hereafter avoided. tions, to combat the proposed new constitution for eigh- I do hearily desire that we may divest the syslem of teen hours each day, if necessary; and they would, if all spectal of all exclusive privileges, and that we may they werelcoriepelled to fight it to its " bitter end." place corprations and individuals onl precisely the aml1e Mr. LEADB'ETTER. After tile speech to which footing. we have just listened, I hardly think the convention is Mr. ARCHIBOLD. "Tbat's the doctrine." In that tranquil alid unagitated state of mind, necessary Mr. D)ORSEY. Now what is the tiue view and the to useful deliberationi. only view which we should take of the right of the Mr. L. then moved that the convention adjourn. Legislature to interfere with corporate rs,ociatiois? On which mnotion, Or, if vou please, what are the circumstances ulnder Mr. AVAWKlNS demanded the yeas and nays, and which, and under which only, it can be proper for the being ordered, resulted —yeas 5; nays 88, as follows: Legislature to repeal the chartered rights of a corpora YAS-MIeSs9rs. Archbold, Beinnett, Clark, Holt and StebI tion? Simply this, sir. TIhe Legislative power of re.I)ins-5.' peal is only to be exercised when it is clearly for the NAYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, irood of the sovereign people of the State. I am ready 'BlairL Bliekenederfer Brown of Athens, Brown of Carol aillicenserfer Con of Ata,hanys, Brown of Carrolll, and willing to go as far as any delegate on this floor Cuayill, Case otr JI)rcking, CEartewrs ig, C Frr, Coliengcs, Co for the right in the Legislature to repeal acts of incor,Curry, Cutler, D~orsey, Ewa-rt, Ewirg, Farr, Florence:, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray. Green of D)efiance, Green of poration. I believe that right is inlterent in the LegisBoss, Gregg, Haiiiiltoi, Itard, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, lative Departnaent, as the representative of the sover Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Htolmes Hootman, Horton, Hum Ibreviiteh B unt, Hunter, HohDson Jones, ornon, King eign power of the people, and I carry the doctrine to phlreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jochnson, Jones, Kennon, Kingl Kirkuwod, Lawrence, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon anorn,' tile extent of declaring that no one Legislature has, or mlasoni Mitchell, Moreheati, Lorris, Mloud, McCormick, ever had, or ever can have, the power to pass any act Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, QuigleY, llanney, which is not subject in all its parts, to be todified, 1?cemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Slcott of Harrison, Scott off changed repealed or annulled by a suceeding LegislaA uglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, SIrith of Warren, SlithI Of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton. Strubl e, wift, Taylor ture, because the sovereign power of the people is just 'horrmpson of Shelby, Thoinpson of Stark, Townslheud as fully represented, and is just as efficient and corliVance of Butler, arren, Wav, Williams, Wilson, Wood- plete in the Legislature which sits this year, us in any bury, Worthington aic Presdent8.that ever preceded it, and will be as efficientt and as So the niotion to adjourn, was disagreed to. sovereign in the Legislature which convenles next year Mr. DORSEY. The remarks of the gentleman as in that which finished its session this year. (Mr. ARCHBOLD,) who has just taken his seat, ill con- Mr. ARCHBOLD. Suppose one General Assembly mon with those of many other gentlemen who have should pass a law to pay thile militia, and the money is spoken on both sides of the Chamber, would seem to already paid-what then'? indicate atl ariounit of difference in opinion in regard Mr. DORSEY. In that case the thing is done, the to the position which is occupied on the subject now act is consummated-the money having been paid out under cotsideration, which 1 am convinced really does cannot be gathered up, brought back and replaced in Iot exist between gentlemen onil this side of the House. the State Treasury-tilis does not affect the principle; Indeed, I am convinced, from observing the remarks of the question is ridiculous and absurd. gentlemen, that there is really in this Chamber much Buttoresume. Wehavenowstatedthegreatpriiless difference of opinlion than is supposed, and in the ciple which is to guide the legislative action in resufew remarks which I propose to offer oni this subject, I liing to itself powers granted to corporations, wle desire to state some propositions, which I hope call be have stated it to be a broad, an iiiheritenit, an inasubscribed to, to some txtent, by gentlemen of both lienable power. Butwe come now to another imiporparties on this floor, but which I feel confident must. tant question, which is this: how far is it really necmeet the approval of those generally who occupy the essart to assert this power in this constitution, and same sid(e ol this Chamber with myself. here is one ground of difference between many gent And now, Mr. President, I do deprecate the denun- tiemen who, so far as the mere principle is concerned, elations which have been made against me, and those really do notdifferat all. Isitnecessarythatwe should who vote with me oil this question, thechargeso freely engraft in the new constituition which we ame about to made that we are making a war on corporations. Sir, frame, a provision declaring that the legislature shall there is 11o war oil corporations, I am even ready here have the power to repeal any grant of power, if you and elsewhere to declare myself the friend of corpora- please any charter whether hereafter granted or nowextions, well and properly regulated by some general isting, aid consequently heretojore given. Willthe assystem of legislation. I shall not, however, as did the i sertion of that doctrine in the organic law of the State '278 01OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TUESDAY, JANUARY 7. make the power,as regards existing corporations,,reat- pose that in that section we obtained the power to re-, er. or the right mo)re clear and incontestible? Will our peal charters; but I did contend, and I still contend f,ilutre to insert the provision in that instrument make that its provisions protect the property of corporationa.the power less or the right m)redoubtful? Sir, it w ill when their charter;,i repealed, just as it protects the sat. The right of repeal, as I believe, does already rights of inidividual property holders. Let us look at atreeay exist in the, Le gisainre, without a constilu- language-for this is not a matter of legal contiouai declaration, and that right, at least with regard struction, in which I should certainly yield to Mny lo p Lst legislation, can be neither increased nor di- friend from Belmrnont, (Mr. KENNON.) but a mere quesrenished, strengthened or weakened, biv any action tion of the meaniug of terms. The section reads: ,f this body. To the Legislature this power belongs, "Private property shall ever be held inviolate." Not ant in rkv opinion we may safely trust its exercise the private nroperty of individuals only, but all prithere. We are obliged to entrist the Legislature with vate property, whether of individuals or corporate regard to our individual propertv anl wciti our mo:st a.ociations, is at olc inlecluded in the bread terms of imrportant private interests, and'why should not the this section. "And no private property," whether ofsare department of government be trusted with the individuals or associations, "shall ever be taken for. m,ianageornent of incorporations? For if the Legislature public use" &c. Now as no rivate roperty.wiLli ca!i be trusted to grant charters, to pass acts of incor- ever be taken for public use, and as no charter will ioration, why, I ask, may it not be trusted to repeal ever be repealed except when the public good,impera them, when the public interest would be thereby sub- tively demands it, it follows of course that the propse(rved. We hear much here, sir, about trusting the erty taken by a State in the repeal of a charter, or i,e(tpe, about leaving power in the hands of the Le- what is the same thing, appropriated to the public use isla'ture, and we, upon this side of the chamber, have and benefit, is protected and ordered to be paid for by 1-o.n not unfrequently taunted with a desire to take the very provisions of this section. all power fron the hands of thatbody and to dispose Mr. HIlTCHCOCK, of Cuyahoga. Does the gentleif every thing according to our own will; but I per- man mean to say, that when the property of a corporceive, sir, that although there are gentlemen on this poration is destroyed, by a repeal of its charter, that do(or who are exceedingly willing to trust to legisla- section thirty-nine of this report provides for redress tive discretion, whell power is to be drawn awav from or compensation? tihe people and consigned to the hands of associations, Mr. DORSEY. I do. the verv same persons are very fearful of the influ- Mr. HITCHCOCK. How? oef evil counsels, when these grants of power are is r DORSEY. Just in the manner I have poiinted to lie resunied and again given back to the people. out. The State must pay for all the property sthe N(.w, sir, for my life I cannot see why the Legisla- takes. She can take, she dare take no property ex re is not to be trusted as fully and as far in the one cept,or t e public use and benefit, and for this she is ase as in tihe other. Whenever a charter or act of bound to p y. ii-ic;rperation is demanded, it is claimed to be for the Mr. HITCHCOCK. Must she send out a jury anl puihlic good, and the legislature is assumed to be ca- assess damages, when the repeal of a charter desir y)s pable of iudging whether the public interest will be corporate property? oibservec or not, by granting the demand, atnd is not Mr. DORSEY. I have no objections to that whelk the same body"to be supposed capable of judging of the circumstances of the case render it necessary.'~: it -he same interests of the people when these privileges is done in the case of private property, and may be a.niid powers are to be taken away.! equally well done in the case of corporate property. IMr. BAgRBEE. Would you be willing to place But the State is bound to pay only the actual value of ior ndividual property under the control of the Le- the property, of the money invested in the property, lislature, in the saite way that you would have that and not the valgue of any adventitious right or privi b3,d control corporate property? I leges which she has herself bestowed-these rights an.t fMr. DORSEY. Certa,inly-it is already so placed. privileges were freely given, and may be freely re:Mr BARBEE. Would you be willing to have a sumed; and if the property of an association is en.iry intervene in case of taking corporate property hanced by such free gift from the State, certainly it (,ir public use, in the samne manner as in case of pri- cannot be demanded, that when the State resumes th s ate property? gift, she should pay for an adventitious value, createdt Mr. DIRPSiEY. I now think of no objection to such by her own gift-in other words, while the State pays a cou,rse. I have said that I would place corporate for the property she is not bound to pay for the franaiid individual property on precisely the same found- chise attached to the property. ation. inposinl. the same burdens on the one as on And here, sir, I must say a few words in reply to Ishe other, and of course extendiing the same protection the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. STANaERY.] 1 h~ every particular to the one as to the other. stated, in a few remarks made previously on this. su Mr. MA SON. I ask for nothing more liberal than ject, that a franchise was not property, and by so do ~he position of th,i'entleman, (Mr. Doasax.) ing I have unfortunately run counter to the legal ,r. DORS EY. There is rule by which the State opinion of that gentleman. The gentleman has told regulated —bv which se is bound to he regulated you that I am 1no lawyer, not a doctor of law, but ony -y which her legislators are bound by their oath in a doctor of medicine!' Well, sir, the gentleman is coalking private propertv, whether of individuals or of rect; it is my ill fortune, or good fortune, not to becorporations, for public use; such property is to be long to the legal profession, but only to belong to the it'~ker only for the public use and benefit, and when so class of "hoines tristes et docti," the "sad and learned "Caken we have provided in another section of this men," as we are called in all the charters down to the i'aereort, that it shallbe paid for in money. When end of the reign of Quceei Elizabeth, but I will assure ~he S.at~e takes privat'e property for public use she is the gentlemnaii from Frauklin, that though belonging always t.o pay fu~r it., and this we have already asserted to the profession which has usually been designated as bv Constitutional enactm ent. the "genus irritabile," he shall not be troubled hber And hereletin refer for ) a wmomeato thegentlneman with what ite seems so much to fear, "an angry doeftrom Belrnont, (Mr. Khe, whon sectiondemned mytor." I have great respect, sir, for the legal attain. c' lar osrction of the thirty-ninth section of this report.when I wis 1o know I iivcr ontededas tat gutlean eeme to up-the political application of a legal maxim, I shall never 279 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JAN~UARY 7, go to that gentleman for information, for I have seen' shall ever be taken for pultlie Ise, ntless the pibl:c good ine,ie tively demad it, h,ut in all cases, f~i~1 and( a,,eqiiate. comipenisao3iiough of his course on this floor, to feel well as I demands i "ior, itioe, h' firs3t,e, niadle lo the,, own,er, to) be ass,essedi by1 sured that if I did so, 1 should go to the wrong place ai ior,, &c." fsr instruction. It may be well, sir, for him to give.s, as his first lesion to his students in law, tla;at a franchise Mr. DORSEY. I desire to peak for myself only is property This, sir, may make them 9ood WVhig, and not for other gentlemen who utay or nay not agree but I humbly submit that it will make them very bad with me in opinion. but I say I wvil not vote for this ItJwyers! A franchise is riot property-lin itself it can- section if amended as proposed by my colleague, for rnot ba property. It is a free grant, a right or an ex- the simple reason that bare lie has placed private and eniption with regard to property: it is an appendage corporate property in opposition, while I lesire Io place ti property, enid an appendage only —it cannot be sold, them togetller on the same basis and in retun I will geive)) or isevised, iudependent of property-without as- my c,!] if. — will vote for }ion 39 if amendpro'perty it is nothing. Attached to property, it may ied so as to read, "Private property whether of corporreinder property valuable; and if the State t yls shall ever be held inviolate and no, rights which render property valueless, for the actual sless ainoit of money invested in the property, she is the public good imperatively dei ands it,:' &. The bound to pay, but'for the simple right, or the franchise, gentleman (Mr. B,aRBE) says Iin). I supposed as much, as it'is ternied, she is not, she never has beet), and I thus uds the boast that private at)( corporate property' trust uPver will be hold hou,ndi to pay. We, are told are to be put on the sinme level, gentlemen are always that the proepactive value of property, to which a willing for this till they are brought to the test. franchise is attached for some twenty or thirty years, Mr. STANBERY. Suppose the State should niot s, or may be, very great, and for this prospective ben- want the property of a Railroad, for instance for public efit, or value, thre State should be bound, inasmuch as use, but should repeal its charter, what then? individuals have been led to invest money in public Mr. DORSEY. I am not at all embarrassed by that works, with a view to this prospective advantage. I question. reply, that the State granted this benefit to the asso- Mr. ISTANBERY. But will you answer it? ciation only because it was deemed a public advan Mr. DORSEY. Certainly I will. Gentlemen seetia tage, and she resumes it only where the public good continually to forget or obstinately to refuse to couple da sit. She las done the sanie thing with private together two parts of this matter which are inseparableo pro-,perty. Let me call the atteition of gentle~men We contend that the Legislature ehas power to repeal a for a 1110o) cut to a case strongly analegous. Years charter but only when tne puhbic good denands it. Now ago, citizens of the Stste of Ohio, purchased lands the property held under this charter must eithler be of on the Miami river; these lands were granted to vhalteorlof no value. Let it be supposed to be a Liridgeor them by deed and to their suceessorsft)rterr, not for the a Railroad. If no one used it, if nio one passed over it term tuerely of 20 or 30 years, and granted with all the or travelled upon it, then it was of no value to the pub — apti'urtenances thereunto belotigitig. On many of these lie, and could not in this sense be taken for the public Iaaides were valuable mill sites, rendered valuable by the use or benefit. But if it was of real value, if the wa'ers of the river; but in time the State constructs a wants of the community still demand that they should canl',S, builds a dam, turns the waters of this river into pass over the Bridge or travel on the Railroad, they' this cvinal and leaves the owoerofthie land, with his mill must continue to do so and as the charter being repealit is true, siud with his mill site; but totally deprived id the comaany cannot derive any profit from such ot the water which rendered them valuable. But now in traivel, the property being used by the public an for the asreessnenteofdamages the Shaltedoes not pay the pro- the public, the State must pay its just value. riTiis I. aiec.tive advantages accruing, from the fact that the in- my answer to tino gentleman from Franklin. And nowvw'i.i,ent in this mill was a permanent fuiio for the Mr. President, I have detained the Convention much, support and maintenance of a family forever. No longer hau I should have done, had it not beei for the air sie pays the assessed damages, the value of the singular system of catechisiug to which gentlemeti piroperty destroyed or injured, and the courts have ut h b u pleased to make un submit. I have borne foinry refused Io pay any thing more or even to con- the infliction, liecause I have been anxious oiilv to diseider the prospective damages. Thus has the State cover the truth, aud i will only say in conclusion, that, dealt witla the property of individuals; and shall she the supporters of this measure desire to go to no exhave another rule for that of corporatiins 7 treines or to lorce those who oppose us to act against Mr. BARBEE. I will ask my colleague a question. their conscience, as has keen supposed by the gentle — Didt not the property which he speaks of remain still man from Cuyahoga (MIr. HiTCvicocK.) TIhere is comi,i possession of ttie owners. and did not the State pay mon ground on which we can meet, and let us occupy for t}he franchise or privileges which she took froni that-union is desirable, inasmuch as we are to frame a them? Coustitutioii for the whole State and not for a party — lt'~r. DORSEY. No sir. The State always profes- let us do what is right and let as remember that lie ed t,~o pay for the damage assessed on the property in- work which we are performing here, is to be submitted jitred or destroyed, for in some cases the whole proper- to the inspection and to the judgment of our fellow, ty was destroyed entirely, cut away by the canal anD in citizens of the State. But while we are willilng thus to a matioer nothiing left. I said the cases were autalo- make any properconcessions, we cannot forget that we gousi not identical and the same principle should apiply have principles to support, we must reme) It,,e that we, to both-but I fiud here sir, as I have found before, that ~are democrats, anti above all things that we comue here~' those same gentlemen who regard with such holy hor- to supoort tlhe docrtrie of "'equal and exact justice to fur anly th;iug that seems to them like ati infringement all men, exclusive privileges to none." on tlne rights of corporations, sit by utimoved and re-Th gard with the most stoical indifference the assaults quelothnbugothtototorcsll, made on the rights and property of individuals.MrHThOC,ousog,mvdaaloti 1Mr. BA RDEE. To get a clear idea of roy colleal~ue'sovnin ndbigodrd position, I will ask him, if he wviii vote for section 39, if Messrs. Audrews, Htitchcock of Geeaga, Larli~ amended as follows: Larwill, Perkius, Smith, of Higihland, Stitwell, Stick-. :'f$eco.:9 Private ead corporate properly shah1 ever ble hield ney, Stidger, Swati.nd Va!ice iof Champaign, were hivionate, &iii no0 private or cerpeora'e property}, or frans~isec, fouiid absent. 280 yeas 50, lays 49, as follows: te reauiuin Iiqn anwg To TU 'the Coiventioii "the date and amount of the several is YeA.Btais, Cihil, (,hanev, Clark, Dors.ey, Ew ong, sues of the stocks of this State now outstanding, and what Farr, 1Forbes. Greene otf Decfatjiice Gog hard, tteli a iidi- - portion of said st-cks wereoriginally issued u(nder statutes fio uc )Is, H H,t, Hot,ia). H!.iiiihri-ville, Heii, J a, Kint exempting the sarie from taxation," I have the honor to Kirlkwoo7d, c.D->le L~ect rlett(,,, Li-iey, Lstate, that the records in this offlce and in the Fund Comon, Michi 1 McCormick, Norrins Orton, Patte'" Qsi niionr oissioner' offi ce, furnish no (ldata from which the iuforma Jaoniy, Reule 3idi Roll, Sawyer. S(-oit of Aula;ae. tlion required can be obtaijed. Sel-ers, S1Iiil oif Wya,)(Iot, vs-s, tSiul I(. Swift,~a5r'IlT e stocks of the State have been for several years dist.inThony)-i, It'* S iei'y, iiya.uSii of "tark, Towashead, ihd on the face of the certificates, and on the books of Wi!sAn anid( Peesi(l eot- 50. the agent at New York, by the late of interest and the years NAtY "Aesss. Ar,ttyo!d, Bai-i-,e, BarTet of wPrahcn, Benl they b ecome p ayable, and not by reference to the parBarnitt of Pre, Bats, Bennett, lck Cseir of a cts under which they were at first issued. For exAties, Brown of Carroll, Case of ocking, Case of Lictin. tamp.le, $6fi67,063 50 of six percentsto cks were is su ed under Cihainlias- Coilings. Cook, Carry, Cuter" Ewact,~t amloene v, Ctiet, Ewart, Flore,ce, the;Ctof 7th March, 1842, payable in New York after the ,!Iett, Grah.a,,i, Geav, Green of Ros, G,-oe,sitkH — iik,, year 1870 whichhave been denominated the six per cents of Harlan Hiwkicl,- ftitcicOc, of' uyahoga, Hrton, HfI,ttr, 1;0. Under the act of March 1849, and. the arnendatory act K sa t(3n, iNlasoD, Moreliead, Morris, 1McClotid, asli3 of March 1850. to authorize the Fund Comrnissioners to ex tltis, Peck, S-o~~t of H~rrison, S~n~th of Hihln,7Siho ar- S-k aS-o tit Stil lwtitt HVacr, lni of Btl\ ar, change or sell stocks to pay the dett due in Decenber 1850, Ieaili-y, Standonr, tttwel Vance of Buttler, leii 9 the Comrissio ner s issued $1,516,468 43, of six per cents, pay Wi1.~ia~~~iX~s WV<1)UY a}< 9.able in 1870, makingdthe amoruignt of the six per cents of 1870 So thte motion to strike out all after the word ",State" now outstanding, $2,183,531l 93. Both these classes are now , issued in the same form, and are consolidated or sub-divided prevailed. s The qustion ten *ic * T str?ikigas convenlience requires, without any distinction between the TFhe question thien te,iug on sttrking out all after origJinal certificates issued in 1842 and 1850. the word "State" in the propositioil of Mr. VANCE'The same course has been pursued with all the other Forof Butler. aeig,n stocks of the State. This practice is not of recent origin. Mr. NASIH rmoved that the corvention take a recuev The Fund Comnissioners exchanged and sold stocks under o w h n o of Mr.. M d d the authority of the acts ef 1849 and 1850, to the amount of ~o~ which n~otion of Mr. AeCOR deaded tl $4,141,47 43, the whole of which were i.sued under the conyeas and nays and being ordered resulted yeas 46, nays ditions and pledges of the act of 1825 that they should be for.' 53. ever exeinpt from taxation. Y e Ab~bold, BHarba, b~aniiIt of Mongi a ppears by the records in this office, that more thian two mi lry, ilions of State stocks were issuedt in 1839, nearly the Barnett of Preeble, Bates, tlaenett, Bair, Blic.kensdcrtfer. trow] whole of which appears to have been issued under the act of o~Abrts B!,o,,, ot' C.ari, (,~e of Hcig ba!rs, CoI of'ui, C- of Hi CoI 19th March, 1839, by which it was expresslv exempted firom ings, Crry, Crat[er, arey, Iart, Ftorence, Gic lela, Grahamn, taxation. It is not known whether anry of this stock rGray. Greei of LRoss, lHa-iion, larian, litlcb-oalct Ca mai ns separate from the six per cent. stocks of 1850, issued Iho t ll;I, Biirtoii, u nter Json, Ke London, Man Udr otn, under other acts. Moreheod, Morris, McCod. NasO, Otis, Pece, Scott o flar- I respectfully refer to the report of the Auditor of State. iiitli f Billas f carrei, Staniiet-y, Stateton, ni ade to the Legislatune on the 15th February, 1845, a copy of 8 ie, a' ilson and Wortbinigtoti —46, ,Cthltell, Cas olson a nid Worth inCattak-46 oo which is herewith submitted. This report contains a lit of CalN o f' Lici:tes n,-amieo s of the pCorsok, s to whom the original stocks of the Ewinii, FaIr', Fo —e', Grere of Detiae, G re, Groes)k State were issued, with the date andl aniount issued to each. B]at~d Bavisn HI jnderco, f~olrnI also refer to the acomsipanying list of the names of the Fear Hoi unt, -', i~ Kirkwol L wce, Leech, Leadbe-tter, Maool, iie.,l, Kirl' N7ond,ri Noit lL rtoh I' r sons to whom the five atid six per cent. stocks were issuesLide. Maieo., Nlitelcll, IMcCormick, NRoli, hsyOrti, fatter- on the first of July last, with the amount issued to each son,'Ctuig'iey IRaiiey, Remii, IRi~ihle, Roll, Sawyer-, Scott of Asnula, S e ies,QSif X-ayanauwy i e dotl, vbbinase, SIrt,yIen, Swiftt f Exchanges of stocks had been made previous to July, to the Tau,or,Ia Tizh msoi oe Stheib y, Thompion of Slak, Towrsien, Sf amount of $1 5-S1,468 43. On whih the premiuasreeived Taure of, B-,ifotato She~ lySrn, o f' Stonk, Tovodtlur!yeid aamounted to $116,}87 72. Vance of But.ter, Warren, Way, W,ilson, Wood.tury and The report of Mri Briugh, anl the list of the stock issued P~re.,:id ~etl. Ia.in July last, contain all the information in this office in re So the motion was disagreed to. tation to the date and amount of Foreign stocks of the State I he. questiioi then being on the motion to strike out and the persons to whom issued. all fter the word "Stat." It is believed that no special clause or exemption in regard all er he wo ee to taxation existed in any of the laws under which the bal. Mr. N aSHI proceeded to address the convention. ance of the domestic stocks of the State now outstand Then Mr. REEMELIN rose to a questiotn of order. ing, were iFsued. JOIHN WOODS, Auditor. He stated that he called the gentleman to ord,r for ir- H.ON. WM. M.DILL, President Convention, Cincinnati. 1 os.tu April 17.. October 26.. Nov. 1.. Unknown.. .Urbana Banking Company....... o100,000 00 .Bank of Wooster................ 50,000 o0 .K. H. Winslow.................. 50,000 00 .Secretary of the Treasury of the United States..................100,000 0 Total........................... $3,514,638 00 Deduct stock canceled in 1844 an1d 171845......................... 148.858 76 Balance outstanding,Feb. 15,1845. $ 3,365,7-9'24 1826 July o0..John Jacob Astor do 20..Lewis Cass...................... do 20..John Rathbone, jr............... do 20..Rufus L. Lord................... 1827. May 24.. Prime, Ward & King............ July 5..Prime, Ward C King October 23..Mathew Lawler................. do 23. Hale & Davidson................ do 23..Benjamin Tevis................. do 23..Thomas Biddle........ do 23..Guy Br yan do 23..B. A J Bovlin do 23..John R. Baker & Son............ do 23..Charles H. Baker & Co.......... do 23..William W. W oolsey............ 1808. October 8..Prime, Ward S King............ do 8..Lewis Curti,.................... do 8.. George Newbold do.. Frederick Perk ins do 3..James Lloyd do 8..Farmers' Fire Ins. and Loan Co.. do 8.. Frederick A. Tracy do 8..William G. Bucknor do 8..Thomas Biddle.... do 8..William W. Woolsey............ do 8..John Jacob Astor 1830 October 16..Prime, Ward & King............ do lf..William G. Bucknor............. 1832. lSov. 10..Robert While cashier 1838. April 20..Prime, Ward King............ August 11.. Lancaster Ohio Bank............00 do il..J. N. Perkins, cashier........... 183~. March 25..Joseph S. Lake, cashier.......... April 7..T. P. Handy..................... do 19..Joseph S. Lake, cashier......... do 0 o..J. D. Beers, president............ do 23..J. N. Perkins, cashier........... do 28..Mad River and Lake Erie Rail road company................ Nov. 22..J. N. Perkins, cashier............ do 27.. Barings, Brothers &- company.... do 30..Barings, Brothers & company.... 1840. March 19..Pennsylvania and Ohio Caial co. April 1. Ohio Railroad company.......... ao 1. Barings. Brothers & co............ do 2..Samne, for Little Miami Railroad cinpany...................... April 11..Joseph S. Lale, cashier $.00. May 23..Pennsylvania and Ohio Canal.... June 23..Vermillion and Ashland Railroad company 0..... - July 23. Barings, Brothers 4 co...........400. August i8..James Hall, cashier.............. do 20..Alexander Grimnes cashier...... do 21..E. F Drake, casher............. do 22..Joseph S. Lake cashie r....00. do 25..J. Woodbridge, cashier........... October l..John H. James, president........ do 1. Kilgore, Taylor & co do 26..Joseph S. Lake, cashier... l1ov. 13.. W. G. W. Gano, cashier.......... Dec. 7.. R. H. Winslow..................5.... do 11.. Joseph S. l,ake, cashier.......... do 11.A. J. Smith, cashier............. 1841. Jan'y 15..J. N. Perkins, cashier............ do 21..John H. James t do 21..Samuel F. MacCracken....... Feb'ry 2..J. N. Perkins, cashier.. 00 do 5. Little Miami Railroad company. do 1I..R. fI. Wins.low April 18. John Woodbridge, ca:hier.4. do 20..John Woodbridge cashier....... 1836. August 25..David Crouse.................... 1837. January I..Bank of Muskingum............ July 7..Clharles H. Russell & co......... do 7..Thomas W, Ward.... do 7..Prime, Ward 4 King do 7..Christmas,Levingston,Prime 4 co. do?..John Robbins.... do,..Isaac Carrow.................... do 7..John Ward S co Sept. 18..Painesville and Fairport Railroad company.............. dt, 21..Monroeville and Sandusky City Railroa d company I i Total....................... $150,000 00 Six per eent. stock of 1850. $8 0,000 Co 20,0 0 00 105,000 Go 75,000 (O0 1oo,c0o 00 200,r00 ( 0 30,000 00 100,000 cO 50,000 00 310,000 ( 0 100,0o0 00 110.000 Co 105,000 Go 25,000 00 70,000 00 1,n,000 00 5,00o Go 5,&oo 00 5,000 00 30,000 00 55,600 00 30,0O0 O0 225,000 00 308,3t,O 00 66.700 O0 300,000 CO 400,000 00 200,000 00 100,000 00 Six per cent. stock of 1860. $300,000 09 I00,00q O0 300,No0 00 50,0100 00 P',0o0 00 50,000 00 500,000 o0 350,0C0 04 86,000 00 65,900 00 500,001) 00 425,000 00 50,000 00 69,-,, 00 150.0o0 00 40,000 O0 $305,000 00 30,000 00 19,000 o0 400,000 O0 100,000 Ot0 25,000 00 25,000 00 50,000 GO 50,000 00 100,000 00 20,000 n0 10,o0o o0 50,0O0 0o 50,000 00 25,000 00 50,00O 00 50,000 00 50,000) o0 108,500,.00 41,000 00 25,000 00 59,()0) 00 44,502 00 20o,000 06 Total....................... $4,100,000 00 ]leduct stock canceled in 1844 anid 1845........................... 81,341 24 Balance outstanding, Feb.15, 1845. $4,018,658 76 Six per cent. stock of 1856. $20,000 co 50,000 CO 85.000 CO 135,000 (JO 140,(00 00 o.5,000 o0 44,000 00 96,000 00 45,000 0f 0,182 oo 14,667 O0 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 7. Dmoue!nt. June 30..Robert Neil in trust for Franklin Ai.G au w..... 10,500 88 Bank of Columbus............. 0,600 00 y 1m98,779 0 do 30..Effie McA Coons2,200 00 do 30.. Jos Taggart (issued 1870 stock, but comany......25,080 80 changed to 1860 stock on New d0,000 00 York books........ 7,500 00 120,000 00 Oct.!28..W. M. Vermilye, cashier.323,000 00 July. Ce00 8 Nov. 20...W. M. Vermilye, cashier.... 1)(0,000 00 50,088 O0 Dec. 11..Joseph S. Lake & co.i. 0,0.iO 00 40.Cti 00 Total................ 00..... $6,901 781 l0 10,000 0 Deduct canceled stock............ 39,000 c0 90,000 0 Balance outstanding, Feb. 15, 1845. $6,862.781 00 2soo$00 00 d 5J.Pri c ir200,, 80 80 Six per cent. stock of 1?70. 15.000 00 1842. 15,000 0o April 27..M. T. Williams, president....... $34,400 05 50,800 00 do 30..J. N Perkins cashier........... 3i0,000 01) 50,000 (0 June 21. Franklin Bank of Cincinnati.... 45, 00 0 70,000 00 do 21..T. S. Goodman & co.... 8,000 00 20,0 8 88 July 4..T. S. Goodman & co.... 2,000 00 75,088 -o do 7.. P. Ou tcalt. 1,000 10,800 (0 do 21..J. N. Perkins, cashier........... 2;0,000 00 do 25..R W. McCoy and L Goodale.... 6,0!0 00 1,4C0 00 Sept'ber 16..J N. Perkins, cashier... 10"il,000 08 7,500 00 do 24..GordiusA. Hall.... 3,000 00 600 00 1843. 400 00 January 29.. John Woodbridge and others.... 52,000 00 1,500 00 June 30..John Wood............ 5.701) 00 1,500 00 do:'o..lyns Starling.2,800 00 3,800 00 August 15.. Bank of Wooster.... 15,163 5'. 1,5(10 co d3. I0 ohu0 Totald................100 $82.q,C63 50 1,700 00 Deduct stock canceled in 1,44... 162,000 80 300 00 d1,1 0 c0 Bal. outstanding, Feb. 15, 1845.. $667,063 50 7,4C0 00 d 30.itnHao 4,1 080 Seven per cent. stock of 1850. 1,500 00 1,843. 24,00(1 80 May 13..J. N Perkins, cashier............... 100,000 600 c0 do 13..J. N. Perkins, attorney............. 100,4 00 19,000 80 do 13..Jacob Little & co............. Io'OO0 500 80 do 13..Ketchum, Rogers & Bement....... 30,000 3,000 80 do 13..R. H. Winslow........ ]4%,O060 2,300 88 do 13.. Drew, Robinson t co.25,000 1,900 00 do 13.0 El W. nLord......................Ruu -L0,008 d.3,800 00 do 13.. John Ran],.in.20.000 700 o0 do 13..Elisha Riggs........ 10,000 1,500 00 do 13..Josepti S. Lake & Co.50,000 d1,800 80 Sept. 15.. W. M. Vermilye, cashier............ 150,800 d1,100 0) do 15..J. N. Perkins, attorney............. 150,0(40 d3,800 to do 15..Jacob Little & Co.150,000 do 15..R. H Winslow........ 217,500 1,900 80 do 15..Elisha Riggs.... 15,000 3,800 00 do 15.. Drew, Robinson & Co.... 37,500 808 80 do 15..Ketchum, Rogers & Bement.... 45.000 800 00 do 15..Joseph S. Lakefco.... 75.000 3,0088.00 do 15.. Rufus L. Lord.... 30,000 do 15..John Rankin.... 30.000 Total........Swanin.t.st.fo..... $1,500,00 4,100 00 7,900 00 School Funds, &c., loaned to Canal Fund, to November 4,500 00 15, 1)44. 10,850(0 00 School section number sixteen.... $952,018 40 7 5000 80 Virginia military school fund..... 133,652 13 7 700 00 United States military school fund. 119,168 31 8 7,700 00 Common school fund. 39,3106 31 2 15,000 00 Moravian school fund-686 88 8 15,000 00 Connecticut Western Reserve school fund..... 158,659 00 8 3,800 00 Ministerial section number twenty-nine....... 19,703 85 4 15,008 80 OhioUniversity.1,897 39 0 3,800 I;0 4,000 80 Total...$1,425,092 31 4 20,20!} 00 2,000 00 Ohio Domestic Scrip. 200 00 Zanesville Canal and Manufacturing Company.... $8.946 13 11,300 00 William A Adams, assignee of John tillon. 4,500 00 do 30Samue Simson...............3,880 80 William A. Adams, assignee of Seth Adams.....267 85 do ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~2,0 30 Lyn Btarlinghm.....................27,400..80.A. Bciha-4,080 800 do 3 ~hilhesV.'aylr..............3,3( 0 80 Warren county canal company...........11,718 88 do'1~~~~~~~~~~~200 Georg Thomas....................2,000...8..Total.$'29,43/2 81 do 30 Thoms Wod.................1.500) 80 Of the above, the scrip in the name of A. B~uck'ingbam, for do 0. Benjmin Tppan..............7,580 80 $4,800, has been redeemeil, by an issue of faith and credit dodo 3. Amss Vn Bone.............2 500 80 moestic hopds, since Nov. ]5, 1844, and herealter must be do 3. Sauel Vinon..............2,:388 00, charged to account or said bouds issued on Muskinguun Ima. do 1.. Wsne & Gle...............2,800 80 Ohio Domestic Stock. do 3. Poter righ..................900 80 Miami Canal Extension -.......$24'.'),18 16 do 30 - Jhn Wod....................488 80 Redeemed to February 15, 15145, v~iz: D, It.e of is ns Bro. T h w Co r issued. April 26...Gustavus casi............... May 3 oFranklin Bank of Columbus 1... June 4.. -Vermillion and Ashland Railroad do m p a wny......................(1 8 do 4. r Bank of Wooster, fo r.3hio01188 do 2.. Bank of Codi merce, New. York.. July 8. -Bank of Commerce, New York.. Sept. 17..-Joseph J. Lake, carhier.......... Der.. 2.,Barings, Brothers & co., for Lit tle liami Railroad............ do 2.. AG a H. E wing, treasurer, for same. do 31..Jonathan Thompson,president... 1842 January 3..-Cammann, Wghitehouse $f co.. do 5..J.N. Pe rkins, T as hier............ do 14..J. N. Perkins, cashier........... do 14..Joseph'. Lake, cashier.......... do 15..Joseph S. Lake, cashier.......... do 15..Same, for Ohio Sinking Fund.... do R8. ISaac Tyo.......................2,.0.8 do 27..R.H. Jams.................. do 27.. Prime, Ward &Kiig........ August 3.. E.Stevenis &Sons................ 1843. Julie.10.. CelinaAnrw......... do 30..Joel Butties............... do 30..John Burr................ do:30.. Amanda S. Benfield......... do:.i..Temperance Backus........... do 30..Lucy T Bl........... do 30.. Charles H. Baker................. do 310.. Susan B. Brown.................. do'30..-Joshua Baldwin i............... do 30..AlexaniderBore........ do:30..William Creighton............... do 30.. Samuel McMasterv............... do 30..Thomas Moodie............ do 30..- Milton, Harvey and Geo. Brayton. do 30..,NMary and Loui~aaCae...... do'30..Nathan D~unn............ do 30..Ja~mes Ewing.............. do 210..I, inicoln Goodale............. do 3t}..John Gieenwood................. do 30.. Jacob Gub........... do 30)..John (J. Geisey.......... ~,1o 20..Eli WV. Gwynne.................. do 30.. William B. Hubbard......... do go.. J a c o b Hae........... do'30..HR irs of Hlorton Howard..... do 20.. Orange John-son........... do:,0..John Johnson............ do 30..C:hristin Lippincott, in trust for A. do 20.. John Lisle................ do 30..IReuben Lamb............ do 30.. Circleville Bank........... do 20..WV~illiam Ltl......... do 30..Hugh M'Donald, guardian of heirs of J. MID. M'A~rthur........ do 30.. J. R. Swan in trust for E. S. Mc Dowell......................... do 30..Robert W. M~ y........ do'30..C. J. MceCauly........... do 30.. Robert Neill............. do 30.. Daniel K. Converse........ do 30.. Legal reps. of MJaria M. Pr;e~sto'n...' do 30..WilliamPatnjr........ do 30O.. Samuel Pro......... do 30..Jacob Fice............ do 30..George B. kee......... do 30..T. C.Rohil.......... do 30.. Recompen ce Stanbery...... do 30..John tnagi......... do 3,0..Gustavus Swan........... do 30..Jesse Soe do 20.. Hosesilams......... do 30..Samuel F. Smith........... do 30..Samruel Simpson............. 283 OHT-IO CONTVENT',ON DEBATES —TUFeSDAY, JANUARY 7. aMr. SAWYIER moved that the communiication be laid on the tlable and ordered to be printed. 7 Mr. RANNEY mloved to amend the motion so as to ahave the docunieuts accompanying the coimnmunicatioII also prinlte:'d, wtfliclh was agreed to. The question thlen being on laying the commniunication arid the acconipanying doclruments o1n the table anad orde-inig tlhe saiiie to be printed, the same was agreed to. Land bonds............... $23,353 00 faith and credit.......... 5fO 00 23,853 00 $825,377 ]6 Sami-e on c.,ntract cf P. W. Taylor & Compalny, viz: Issued to ovember 15. 1844....... $190,000 Co Issued from Noverrmber 15, 1844, to I- ebrutary!5, 1845................. 4-',O00 O0 -- _'_ 32,000 00 Wa'bash and Erio isiue.............. 490,45eI 50 Hedeemedl, to wit: To;ovenber 15, 1844.... $69,069 (100 From > ovebert 1., 1844 to February -5 1945.... 6,9,O 00 76,039 00 14,617 50 PE,ION-AL EXxPLANATFON. Mr. CASE of Licking, (MAr. NASi hav ing prece {(led and alluded to certain new-paper articles with reference to tLe course pursued by Mlr. C. on this question, and having yielded the floor for the purpose of explamation,) said: So far in life, I have paid very little attention to newvi)eper attacks; arnd the effmect h ich they generally have upon me, is much like the effect of snow fil ing upon the sirface of an unruffled lake. I am heie in an ofi(iiial capacitv, act ing under a solegn oatlih, in the discharge of a serious duty as a representative. I have a constituency owhom I respect and hoitor, and:-l am proud of them as men and as democrats. On to-morrow, (the Sth of January,) to the democracy of Licking, with whom I fought shoulder to shlioul der in the last campaign, will be presented byv the democracy of Franklin couln ty, with appropriate cerenioai,ls, a spleiidid ba-nner, bearing the portrait of the old hero of New Orleans, ANDPrEW JACKsOn, in honoi of their late achieveiments at the polls. I claimi the honor of having doue at least a private's duty in that contest. But it is not so0 i much on account of myself as on account of the r* lation which I siusta/n to my constituents, that I deign to answer any n,ewspaper attack in this place. They would pro bably expect me to notice so distinct an allusion to their county and one of their delegates on this floor. I could hardlv have been more surprised at beirngi, attacked personally iIl this Hall, than I w,as upon be ilg presented this.orning with tlle art i cle all uded to in the Cincinnati Emmuirer- a paper which I have tha ken sine I havre been here, to the conductors of wrhich I have beei merely i0tro$1u0cewl —lev er hatving spo ken with them bot o nc e in my life, atnd yet without ani apparent, caise, they lhave not only charged myie with corrnption, but tlev have charged the county of Lick ing with boeing represented by cIorrupt nes d in the Legislature. There is an other fac t which I wi sh to state as pre liminary to thic explanation. It will be admitted, I think, t)lat, hitherto, I have not occupied liuch of the timde of this body: and at the first, it was iy in tentioni to occupy much less than I have. On last Satur(day. however, I felt constrained to address the Convention at lehgtu; an id $d how was I reported iIg the Cinciayati Enquirer? Bf y a downright falsehood put into my rioutsh. Here i s wha t they say of me: "Air. CasE, of L ickting, openel ti:e session, by a libored at tempt to show that party had nothing to (,o with the clection of memnbers of the Conaventioni, and that the doctrine, that the Legislature shouhtI be declared to have tlh power to re peal charters, was not a part of the Deemocratic creedi." Now, Mr. President, I stated no such thin.g I stated exactly the reverse of that. I asserted theat it was known however,that the doctrine of repeal, with respect to corporations hereafter to be granted, was a Democratic doctrine; respecting a clause in our new Constitution, and I have voted for it here. Accor dingly, I went yesterday -morning to see the yotug man who reports here for that paper, and asked him I if that was the w,y he reported nme. He replied, ; "That is Ilot my report. It has been altered. 1 gave ! nearly two squares of matter describinig your speech; i an~d here is not half a squlare."2 I said no mor e. Wse Turnpike bonds iss4ued, to wit: l'p to' ovember 15, 1844. $'96,870,18 Frorm Noveniber 15, 1844, to February 15, 1845...'3,297 00 -- $300,167 48 R'edeemeed, to wit: Up to \ overcber 1.5, 1844.$56C,427 74 From Noveml:er 15 1844 t o February 15, ]845.... 6,616 42 - -- 69,044 16 Hockling Canal issue... Mus]kingurm Improvement issue................ Walhonding Canial issue.................... W%7estern Reserve and Ma,umee Road............ Total outstanding........................., $728,6.9 94 lSurplus Revenue. , mount paid in by sundry comrxpanies, to Novem ber 15, 1844. $59,523 66 Amount loained in by sundry counties to State,'iz ~ Trumbull county............................... 27,716 58 Summit................................7,272 48 Portage....... *...................*........e.......9.7 so7 50 Warren....................................... 8,284 25 Athens 2,4i................................... t,594 t e7 Lawrence...................................... 11 967 72 Nlercer............................. 3. 4.....t. T4 Vanwert................................... 1,599 57 'otal..................................... $141,925 27 Of the above, the ainount loaned from., Trumbull county has, since the 15th Xovember, 1844, been paid into the State Treasury r- surplus reve-nue, under the act of Mrarch,i3, l843, and will hereafter be charged to that accotant. Recapitulation —-Foreign Debt. Five per cent. stock of 18i50.... $400,0{)0 00 Five do do 180.. 150,00 0 0 Six do do 1850... 4,()18.658S 76 w to i Six do do 1856..'.3,'65.9 24 Six do do 1860.. 86,86,ti781 O0 Six do do 1870... 667,663 50) Seven do do 180.. 1,5.0 $,200)0 0co $16,964,282 50 0 School funds............ 1,425,09 31 4 Domestic s cip..................... 9,432 01 0 IDomestic b onds...............728,679; 94 0 Surplus revenue.141,925 27 0 Total. $19.289,412 03 4 OF the foreig-n debt, above stated, the sutn of eighty-three thousand dollars is held by the Canal Fund Commissioners, for the Casial Sinking Fund. JOt-mNe B-' OUGH, o unditer of S tate Statement of Ohio Stoelta iw,ued on the first of July, 1S50, showing the nameii of the purchasers and the amount issued to each. Names. Am't sold Premiums received. _.-..i _- - _ _ _,cw Mr _rsdn ttd i uhti A. Belmont, King & Sons; Winslow Lanier & ('o.;'ammann, WFhitehead & Co.. and otherc, upon a joirtbid. $1,52o5,C00 $19,950 00 J. J. Hamilton.........................o5.00 3,877 50 L. & E. Decoppet................... 50,000 6,63() 80 Amount of si x per cen ts..... ta....was t10he wa 8. l0 A3 Belmont, King & Sonc; WinslowI Lanier & Oo: Cammann,Wl0hiteheadt I & Co., anid others, upon a joint )id. $985,000 $13,078 00' George Mygatt...................... 15 000 c0 Amount of five per cents.........!ti}mo(ol $13,378 001 i I I I II 284 237,123 -2 io,cio 00 7,64t-) 83 812 13 loo co the facttat teinterit of the party, aq teln vindicated,s,n trth J t.t:,t, t -t.. u. ii, 1... aalloei. ** * * can, and I will say now that no man dnrst do it. In this, oriini's papelr here is what is said inr, re- MAir. SAWYER. It is not propere foi- the gentlelllan lati'on to Hiyself in connection with my vote on re- to sav that no manl dare do this or that. I desire mypeal. Speaking of an attempt being nimade sortie self to mnake ain intiniation to the gentleniani, ini order years ago in the Legislature to repeal the charter of that lie imay stand corrected. I understood the honthe Bank of Gallipoliz, and which failed by corrp-j orable mem berfromi Lickiig to say that the doctrine tioI, as he says, of soete riemnibers, the editor savs: of repeal was not a d(enioctatic ieasure in thle la.t 's'o pkii)ely wtre (r'iptioa d,ts|canvass; and in a nswer to that, I reiiiertl,er that the mlDereeCry anroai, wi tu caish il hanid, to liy t[e legislato r o1 gentleman before ie (Mr. LEeCI) got up and read an iel I ois ~onsttuency. extract from Afedary's Nit Coristituio in, setting it forth Tim corI (,ra>*e ilet~ests of the state hiad thlen In the Ir'..islaturfietr(tf ni}eay, -o otiui1,stigitr; of~ th'e iis tate II a4 thien'i- te D~(4i.~latiirc as a cardinal principle. 11)1o1re de voted ~r~e.:} fromi Lickiagr iai they noY hae - tt heP Cl Itip ICC elr ti}e ia,,ie h,la.fcte t i i Mlr CASi. Do I ulnderstaud( the "entlena-li fromn Co!~vc,.tion Whe'ihrlbe same "gfunt"oe ate Air, CAsT oila of thisse ca~.os. r'sjrvedt fto a'"HtileIr Court."' Aegla17ie to affirm that I did sav so'? And thle gel (,tli remn from eenvx to eCdorte it, Such are thi( attacks ade individuailly titir forup lix to edorse ity IV pol nl-',Nlr. MAITCHE-P'LL. Thlat was wh,Iat lie said. I uni: elf Iin relation to newspaper attacks, I ventu re toIL hat lat he sail. I - ~ay teat thec is not a mm Oll li eor,,,ho,,, (derstood tlhe genitleinali to sav distiiictly, that he did say tat there is not a m-m 1 ulponi I his floor, -who IhIIs nt knjowN where the doctrilm of reel,,id be~come~ a been mnore virtiLlenitly assailed bv the Whi pre;s thlant k le dctri of ipl i eci a I have been. I am accultomiied to these attacks. lot deciocratic dolltriuc-a test of OLiolloer,cic faith. And, when I am attacke(d ty myn owin party, the thint I't vry a r r, te g tla apcomry(e,s in a littilo dlifeii lt asJect pealed1 to 1mciilbers to siy what convention,'wht pr:i come~~~~~,st iu n ay l i uttedferen as well a s The impnutation iscast upon Jiy cointv as we ll I of e p pe had o sed t1}r renysel~t, il of'vi h 1+newto re.trine; d in nw se at, thlein told limi, the county of ray7self,,tl of wl-ich is ne-w t~o me.Kioxled MIr. NASH, (interposin..) Was George H. Flood d in the Legislature at that tinme? Mr L C cer estood he gelem Mr. C ASE. I know not, I wea not personally ac- frori Li iiig, iii a portion of his siteeeli, ol Satuoday ,riiainte~d -with A~Mr. F'lood- He -was a mem-rrber of the qtlainteld wiub Mr. btleed lie was a niem-nber of thle I last, to take the gronid, diqtinctly, that the Joctrine legislature befi)re I located in that coility But I of repral, Without dis'ijiglishiig hetween ciarters kneow one thing, HeI a,s a Ican ~ respected and l)0 $now in existe al i wliitI lsiuglt be heecafter know one tling e wa-s a meanl respected and beloved by a11, wiltliout distinction of party. And I grai'ted, WSw asft; De cratic (otriie, that the Deriiknow aiotlher thing. Shortly aft.er thi time of thi ocratic party, i 1)0 iiIstance, ninde it all 1s1510 i -~~~~i- an~~~~~~otreri patyii! t, in iio instance, mad'I~e it al i~s~ie in) inipotd o.he rejoeiv~e~lj the nturete ofe~ ( ry the canvass for a Conveintioii to amuen the Coniimputed corruptirone.he receiv-ed the sign,jatiire of eve~ry! t~ demnocraticx member of the then legislatureof Ohio +t0, stiutio. Upon this I took isue win lili, anci nade paper recolTmenTding lhim to the Piresident of theU. S, a reply. aas-,- a itable pei,orn to be appointed totheibar,eslhip After t hael passed over to the gLentleman's seat, and ,If Texa,s; and accordingly le was appointed to that rivatev called his attrtit to so rte arlicles iii Me p,~.riv'stew y cal ledis titL'tiou, tsoerlie,tes,in "Me-tio place bvMlartiii Vani Biren. And I believe, more- darv's New Coestitution," ie o~de the diistinctoe over, that anty iiian who w-ould new rciterate that which he now claimrs to have made. This, Mr. Presi cl,ar}ge a,,aini.t hitin inl Licking ciouty,'11 be mlti dent, is liy recoilection of the p)ositions assumed by the on all sides wili corn, and contempt. his is the getl rn ickl, Strday. But, Sir. as I first ttire I ever heard it in mny life. m rake no pretensions to iltfallibility, 1 admit that I may IBut I asck, why are the,se charaes and insinlations e emistaken ir it.ll this. I feel entirely satisfied in niy cast out? Why isit said here, that meli are bought own millnd, hoev er, that I am not mistaken. More utip, bribed, purchased? Is there aniiy truth in it, s i over, other gentemen here, fully concor with ne. there a single act, to uilstify any manl in makin"g thiti Mr. CASE. If lie so understood me, he niust have charge?. Is ltherne ai menlber CI)i this' floor who caii been the ouly man I think. to get that understanding. answer? The vote I have given inr comrnmont with It is impossible that I could have been generally so eleven others, is the only evidence of corruption, sug- poorly uitd,rstood. For I stated over and over again, OHItO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 7. that the doctrine of repeal was admitted democratic do-tri-ne. That it was recognized in my county, and throughioutthe State of Ohio with the democratic par ty. I say I stated that distinctly Amn I right or wrong in that? SEVERAL VOICES. "R i gh t-ri gh t." ,Mr, CASE. Certainlv I am right. But I stated also, this; that I did not know, nor did I believe, that it was the wish of the people that a provision should be put into the constitution, providing for the repeal of charters heretofore passed; that I cid not believe it had been advocated as a doctrine of the party. It was that kind of repeal that I spoke of. Mr. SAWYER [ in his seat ] That may have been the case. Mr. CASE. I said it was cal!ed for to operatepros pectively; but but not retrospectively. Is there any man here who can gainsay this? Mr. MITCHELL (in his seat.) Yes I am here- to ga'nfay it. Mr. CASE. Then you gainsay that which is not true. Mr. MITCHELL here reiterated his understand ing of what aras said, as above recited.Mr. GREGG I understood the gentleman from Licking as represented by the gentleman from Guerni sey [Mr. LEEccH;] and ill answer to his statement of the positioll of the democratic part)- prior to the election of delegates, I produced a paper and read the following from the proceedings of a Democratic Convention held nll Columnbiana county on the 1Sth of March, 1850: "Resolved, That the democracy of Columbiant county, are in favor of such constitutional amendments as will secure the following, among other results: No Legislature shall pass a law, grant a right, or confer a rivilege, which may not be modified, or;wholly annulled. by a subsequent ledgislatuie." My reading of that resolution, (with which I neglected to furnish the Reporter) while Mr. CASE was speaking shows clearly that I understood himi to take the ground that the Democracy had not declared for the repealability of charters prior to the election for Delegates to this Convention. But I suppose the geil tlemani from Licking [Mr. CASE,] will contend that his is prospective ounly. Mr. CASE. When you interrupted me on Saturday and read the resolutioti,inr the instructlion;. now referred to, and remarked that you supposed I would contend that it had a prospective bearing, I then replied that I did so consider these instructiotns. Mr. DORSEY. I am not one of the twelve inielu ded in this explanation; but I will say, that I under stood the gentleman from Licking to take the grounds which he now assumes that he did take. I did not vote with the. gentleman upon this question; and I can be entirely impartial, as far as that is concerned. But I understood him distinctly, not to deny that the doctrine of repeal was a democratic doctrine; but hie understood the gentleman to deny both the popular demand for, and the expedienicy cf, delegates vtiting for a clause respectitngl chart,,rs (already in exist ence. SEVERAL VOICES. "That's right." Mr. CASE. I will state another circurtsance going to show that I ought iiot to have been mistaken. Did I not read two or three extracts from MAledary's Constitution, ill which the doctrine was advocated for the prospective operation of the rule? Did I not read from the Cincinonati Enquirer, declaring that it was to be applicable only to future leqislation? A VoincE. "4Yes thou did." Mdr. KING. [ think the. gentle-man truly states hl s position. Although I may diffr with himi in voting, I think he has a right to be fairly represented. Mr. Kt RKWiOOD If it were o t herwise, would that as tit' y the charge of corruption? Mr. CASE. But I have re ally consumed more time tha n I intended, a nd I b eg par do n for o ccupying so much of t e t he rime of this body-I a, w done. Mr. SAWYEGR. The gentleman from Licking should rernenber tha tt the rigaiteoes minust suffr per secution; and if he is persecuted a little,it will not hurt himmuch. I remember'a series of newspap er attacks which were mado(, upon me in 1840, by a cou ntary editor in the district whereat was a candidate, for an important office, up in the Northwest, without much prospect of success. Hisattacks being contillnued from week to week became, a little annoying; and fioally, t o ge t ri d of the fellofw, I advertised in an other paper, that I would send the fellow a barrel of floor, if tie would contin o ue his attacks upon nee every week, till the day of the elec tion. The result o f tha t advertisement was, that he ceased h]is attacks upon a)me. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention again took up the report of the Committee on the legislative department, with the pending amendments. The question pending being 611 striking out all after the wo rd Stat e " in the proposition of Mr. VANCE of Butler., Mr. SAWYER moved the previous qu.estion. The question then being "shall the main question be now put," Mr. STANTON moved a call of the Convention, and being ordered, Messrs. Andrews, Ewart, Larsh, Larwill, Patterson, Perkinis, Smith of Highland, Stil well, Stickney, and Vance of Champaigl, were found absent. Messrs. L,arwill, and Vance of Charnpaign were severally excused. Mr. MITCHELL moved that all further proceed ings under the call be dispensed with, which was ag reed to. The question then being, "shall the main question be now put," Mr. MORRIS demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted-yeas 46, nays 55, as follows: YEats-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Ewing, Farr, Forbes. Greene of Defiance. Gregg, Hard, Henderson, Hoot man, Humphreville, Jones, Kennon, Kirng, Leadbetter. Li dey, Loudon, Mason, Mitchell, Morris, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of WNyandot, Stanton, Steb bins, Stidg-r, Struble, Swazi, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Town!hend, Way Wilson and President-46. N,,Ys —Messrs. Alchbold, Barbee, Buariet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preb e, Bates, Bennett, Btickensderfer, Brown of Aihens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hockinig, Case of Licking Chambers, ('ollings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hfitcicock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Horton, Hunte'Hunter, Johnson, Kirkwool, Lawrence, Leech, Malnon, Itorehead, McCloud Nash, Otis, Peck, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, 6inith of Highland, Smith of WNarren, Stanbory. Stilwell, T'hompsoni of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Warren, Williamis, Wood'bury and V,V orthinigton-55. So the demand for the previous question was not sustained. Mr. LAWRENCE inoved thlat thereportasanmendded, with the pendiing amendments be laid on the t;able and ordered to be printed, which was disagreed to. Mr' MITCHELL moved that the report with the pending amendmrents be recommnitted to the commrittee which reported it, onr which mnotionI, Mr. MORRIS demanded the yeas anld nlays, and bein~g ordered, resulted~yeas 54, says 4S, as follows: YExs —Mesars. Archbold, B~lair, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Clark, Cook,v Dorsey, Rwing, Fart, Forbes, Green or Defiances Gregg, C~reesbeck, Hard, H~awkins, Hen-derson, Hollroes, Holt, H~ootruns., Hum-phneville, Hunlt, Johnlson, Jfones, King, Kirk wood, L~eech, Leadbetter, Lidley, Marion, Mitchell, Mc~ormick, Norris, Orton,7 Patterson, Quligley Ranney Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Sellers,.Stnikh of ~,,'yondert, Stebbins,Stidger,.Struble, S; wilt, Taylor, Thompson 286 OHIO CONTWENTION DEBATES-WEDNES)AY, JAN.UAY S. 287 of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Wtay, Wilson The question then being (ii inserting the article and Preside it-54. ts disagreed to. NA.YS-Messrs. Barbee, Hlrnet Of Montgomery, Barnett of t Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blicesderler, Brown of Athens The question then being on agreeing to the sixth Brown of Carroll, Case of Lickiing. Chambers, Collings, I amendment, to-wit: Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Giliett, Graham, Gray, In Sec. 1 line 3,1 strike out the word "one" after the Green of Ross. Haminilton, Harlan, Hitchccock of Cuyahoga word "Td isert in lieu thereof the Hitchcock of'Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Kennon, Lawrence, Loudon, Mason, Morelhead, Morris. McCloud, Nash, Otis, article "an" Peckli, Scott of Harrison,'cott of Auglaize, Smith of High- A division being demanaded the question turtned laend, Smith of e arren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell Swan, first on strikinig out the word "otne," whichl was Vanice of Butler, Warreni, Williams, Woodbury and Worth anreed to i ngtoii-4. So the iotiotn to recommit was agreed to. The question then being on iniserting the article On1 motioti of Mr. NASH the Convention ad- "a. he same s agreed to and the section, as jouruied. amended, reads as follows: Sec. I1. The Executive department shall consist of a EIGHTY-SECOND DAY. Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, Auditor, Treasurer and an Attorney General WEDNESDAY, Jan. 8, 1851. lThe question then being on agreeing to the seventh 9 o'clock, A. M. amendment, to-wit: In Section 3, line four, strike out The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. the word "have" and insert iii lieu thereof the words Prayer by the Rev. Dr. Hoge. "has not." Mr. MANON presented a petition from H. O. Han- The sanme was agreed to, and the section, as amendna and seventy-one other citizens of Licking county, ed, reads as follows: praying that a clause be inserted in the new Conrsti- Sec. 3. "No person shall be eligible to the office of tution prohibitin- the Legislature from passing any Governor who has not the qualifications of an elector law legalizing traffic il spiritous liquors. and hais not been a citizen of the United States twelve Mr. BROWN of Athliens, presented sundry peti- years, and an inhabitant of this State five years next tions from Cyritha Hill, AInn Mliller and eighty other preceding his election, and has not attained the age females of Athens county, on the same subject. of thirty years." Said petitions were severally referred to the select The question then being on agreeing to the eighth committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. amendment, to-wit: In section 4, line two, strike out On motion of Mr. LEADBETTER, the Conven- the word "Legislature" and insert in lieu thereof the tioni took up the report of the committee on the Ex- words "General Assembly." ecutive department. The same was agreed to and the section as amend The questi(n being on agreeinig to the first amend- ed, reads as follows: mint of the commiittee of the whole, to-wit: In see- "Sec. 4. The Governor shall be elected by the qualition 1, line one, strike out the word "one" and insert fled electors at the time and places of voting forminemin lieu thereof, the article "a" before the word "Gov- bers of the Geineral Assembly. and shall hold his ernor, " which was agreed to. office for the term of two years from the time of his The question then being on agreeing to the second inauguration and until his successor is qualified." amendment, to-wit: The question then being on agreeing to the ninth See. 1, line one, strike out the word "one" after amendment, to-wit: Iii section five, line three, insert word "Governor,"' and insert in lieu thereof the after the words "publish them" the words "and dearticle "a." dclare the result," it was agreed to. A division beingi demanded, The questiotn then being on agreeing to the tenth The question turned first on striking out the word amendment, to wit. In Section 5, line five, strike out "one," which was agreed to. the word "Legislature" and insert the words "Geieral The question then being on inserting the article Assembly" it was agreed to. "a," it was disagreed to. The question then beinig on agreeing to the eleventh The question then being on agreeing to the third amendment, to wit: At the end Section five insert the amendment, to wit: following "contested elections for Governor shall be Sec. 1, itle 2, after the words "Lieutenant Gover- determined by both houses of the General Assembly nor," strike out the word one and iinsert in lieu there in such manner, as shall be prescribed by law," it was of the article "a." disagreed to and the section as damended reads as fol A division being demanded, lows. The question turned first on striking out the word "SEc. 5. The retutrns of every eleclion for Governor, shali "one," which was agreed to. te ealed up and traTnsmitted to thie seat of Goverinment by the retuirn,,ing ofmt, irectedi to the Presidleat of the Sen-ate, who The question then bking on iniserting the article rel ce, ireed te Presieof the Seate who *"a "o it was disas'reed to. ~ shall open and putblisli them and (tecarethe result in the p)reseii-nce "a," it was disagreed to. ora majority of each house of the GenFeral Asselnit~ly during the The question then being on agreeing to the fourth fis-t week of the session. The l,erso. lavii)g the nighet dujrnier am~~~~i iri' igtendimesuntitterit Almendient, toa wit: ot voles shall ire G)veriior, buit if aily two or meore, shall ihe e-qual and ihest in) vote.,. on, of th~emr st'all be chosen Go)vernor Sec. 1, line 2, strike out the word "one" before the bq th joihnt votes o e chsen Governor word Auditor," and insert in lieu thereof the ar- The question then being on reeingto the twelfth tide "an" A division being demanded the question turned amendnment, to wit, In Section 7, line one, strike out first on strik'ng out the word "one," it was agreed the word "Legislature" and insert in lieu thereof, the The question then being on inserting the article words "General Assenbly " it was agreed to, atd the "an," it was disagreed tot section as amended, reads a follows: The question then being on agreeing to the fifth "szc. 7. He shall coninuttnicale ly iessage to the Geiteral mendment to-wit:A-ssembly, at every sesion, the conidition of the state, atid ec amendment, * ortniend for their consideration such roeasures as he slia 1 deem In Sec. 1, line 2, after the word "Auditor" strike expedient." out the word "one" and insert in lieu thereof the Thequestion then being on agreeing to the thirteenth article "a." amendment. to wit: In section $, line two, strike out A division being demanded the question turned the word "Legislature" and insert in lieu thereof, the first on striking out the word "one," it was agreed to. words "General Assembly," it was agreed to. OHIlO CONVENTION DEBATES-vEDN.E,s'Av, JANUARY S. The question then being on agreein1g to the four- of the General Assembly, communicate t'.erete, each case of reprieve, commutation or pardon grantee,,:tating the name of the convici, the crimefrwihsu c person was convict strike out the words "to both houses when assembled of the sentence awd sdc h peron was covint ed, the sentence andl its date, and theo date of the commiuta. adili,aei,'iicua Lis~i~c2oui,;,o W,V,'ds:iki.~, p~loci,,,i~a- Ll u'u, pardon or repriee,ai hse ra~ t.'it.rfus. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~i ca,ric. tr MASON demandeda division.." The question then being on agreeing to the twentv Mourth aeniudicient, to wit: Ii sectioi 14, liue two, The question being first on striking out the words strike out hi word "the before the word "Goverisor" "to both houses when assembleS" it was disagreed to. it was agreed t o a:dtia t etion as a,ended reads as The question then being oi inserting the ameud- follow, sneut, ot the committee of the Whole, it was disagreed SEC. 14.'o nieceber of oigress or person holdig office to, and the section as amended reads as follows: unter the Uiited States or this state, shall execute the office ,.SEc. S. He lay. on. extraordinary occasions, Gver nor." Gem,,i,rat Assembtly proclarmation-, ai-,.( shaln st~ate lo hot!) Gt whers Aaei, lyl, (1ipose for which - shall htave 10 bo The question then being on agreeing to the twenty hose, i a:eil iled. ll fifth amendment, to wit: strike out the whole of Sec The question then being on agreeing to the fifteenth tion 16 it was agreed to. amendroeit, to wit: III Section 9, line tco, strike out The question tiei being on ogrecitig to the twenty the word "Legislature" and insert the words "Genieral sixth amendment, to wit, II sectionl is, lines one and Assembly," the same was agreed to, and the section as two, strike out the words "twenty-five ioundred" and amrrien.,idati, reads as follows: ilsert in lieu thereof, the words "two thousand." sc. 9f I eases of disay,r wee n tthe two teitis i, Mr. HiOL demanded a division. respectt t the tiae of alj.mrntext, the G-vm'lmr hlave t he The question being first on strilking out the words p, wer to adjourn te Geneal Asseibty1( t he as lye e "twelity tive hundred.a lh~tin liroper[ bet niot to ad the regalar min g Mr. MiSON dnde d the yeas and nays, and be. tllereofi" ing ordered, resulted; Yeas 83, ~,ays 15, as follows The question thenr being on agreeing to the sixteenth Yv. AsF.-Messrs. Arhol.d, 3ervei. Barnet of Montgomiery, ameodmeut, to wit: In Section 11, line two, insert af' Bale Benie, Biren, w of Carroll, Ca.bhill, Came ter the words "itr all" the words "crimes and" it was of Hucking. Case of birtieg Chbney, Clark, Cutiings (Cook, Cuirry, Cutler I)orsey, Ewart, bwiucr, I Far, Florece, F orlibe agreed to. Gilhq~, GrGiah, Gray Greve of,Deliane,e, G ezg,Haitn The question then being on agreeing to the seven- ailrl, Gearlan, Hwko insli ofya, teeuth amendment, to wit: In Section 11, line three, Hitchbcoctk of G,aauga, H Iocet, 11Iotan ure vitte J, hnscu, insert before the words "such restrictions" the word Irth Lawreit Leei i,eail tuer, "outder,' it was agreed to.',L,NManon. Mi tiell, M torelead, Morris, feCloud, Mo Cor alo, Norris-, Orton,, elis. Patterson,Y, Peck, Qqiigicy,Ran, The question then being on agreeing to the eigh- I Sawy er, Scott of iScatt Auisiize, Seltlters, teentth amri.diidment, to wit: Ill Section 11, liue seven, iti of otarret, $mih of Wy-autot, Stariterv, Staniton, Ciel. strike out the word "Legislature" and insert in lieu, iveti, likt re ir oicp.oa of Sey,T.ioijiiso,, of' Stark, Tonha. Vanice of' Bu,tle-r. thereof, the words "General Assembly," it was agreed Warreni, Wad, WiesoBiiisr, to. ~A~55Nx Mes Barneit of tPelllio Blair, Birow it of Athie,is, The question then being on agreeing to the nin i CI tiiti, li,untler, Jones, Macoi,, Rtiddl~e, Roll, Swift, N5,illianis anid W~or-thi,,fg,toi~5. teetith aruendineut, to wit: In Section 11, line eight'! So) the m).otion to strike, out was agreed to. Strike out the word "Legislature" and insecL ill nli The ructiohen o fike t bak w ito tnereof, the words "General Assenibly," it was agreed to. the words "two thousand." Mr. STANTON moved to perfect tile words to be TIhle question then being,, on agreeing to the twenitieth aiensidment, to wit: Iii Section 11, lint, tell, strik inserted by inserting b,-fore thf saie "not less than." e M~r. MASON demanded tie, yeas and niays, and be out the word "annually" and insert in lieu tiercof, the ing ordtere,-, resulted, Yeas 16,. Nays 82, tas follows: words "at every regular session of the Getieral As em-,t-,resulaee, Y rnt o f Naos itgniesyfollows Mac.s~esra. Barbee, Bernet el Montgomery, Bates, bly," it was agreed to. Brown of Athens, Chambers, Cutler, Groesbeck, Horton, Mr. MASON moved to reconsider the vote taken, by Hunter, Jones, Larsh, Mason, Riddle, Stanton, Taylor and which the convention agraed to the twentiethi aiiend- Williams-16. meat of the coimmittee o the Wholbe, which was disa- AsMesrs. rchbold, Barnett of Preble, Beinett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carrolt, Cabill, Case of Hocking, greed to. Case of Licking, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Curry, The question then being on agreeiiig to the twenty J)orsey, Ewart, Ftrr, Florenie, Forbes. Gillett, Gra. first amendment, to wit. Strilke out in section 11. line h am, Gray, Greene of tle~iance, Gregg, Hainiltois, Hard, eleven, the words "to thie Legislature" and insert in Harlan, Hawk.ins, H etescn, Beitchcock of (uyasboga, lieu thereof, the words "thereto," which was aer ed to. Hitchcock of Geauga, tiolt, Hootman, lumphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawre nce, Leech, The question then being on agreeing to the twenty- L~eadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris. Mcsecocd amendment, to wit: In section 11, line twelve, Cloud, Mvcormick, Norri% Orton. 5tis, Patterson, Peck, strike out the word "iO"aid'nsert iii lieu thereoef tisa Quigley, Rainihey, Reemelin, Rotl, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wy. words "such person" it was agr-eed to. andot, Stanbery, Steitbins, Stilwell,stickney, Struble, Swan, The qtlestion then being on agreeing to the twenty- Swift, I hompson of Sheiby, Tompson of Stark, Townsthird ameniidmieiit, to wit: In section 11, line fourteenth heVaince of Butler, Warren, eay, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and P'resident —8'. add these wocrds "and his reaso intherefor" thte same waSortheiyoington ind rsierthwo('s"olesth agreed to, and the section as asmended, reads as fol c was disagreed to. "See. Ii.'I'be Governor hall have the power to gre The question then beiig on filling the blank with pricvas, commuteticits cnd pardons. after couvietices. fo l the woids "two thousand, crimaes anid offenees, except treason sand cases of impeach- Mr. RAN NEY demanded the y eas and nays, and clien, upo suchcondt achrestrction andbeing cidered, iesuited Yeas 20, ke~ys 71, as follows: timoitelions as he may thiuk proper, subject to such reguads a,y.Messrs' Barbee, Bernet of Montgomery. Bates, tions as ossy be protidal by law, relative to the manner ofChmes cinsGlebc,HtcokoCyhgs epplyicng ftcr paidons. Upon conivictioni 1cr treason, he shell Hunter, Laadbatter, Mason, Otis, Riddle, 1doli, Sawyer, have Pc the axacuc~~~~~Sioofthe setnelutl' Warren, Stitweti, Swan, Swift, Taylor and Witthe case shall be iepoiteit to the General Assembly at its iiext hm 2 meeting. when the General Assembly shall either pardon N Msr rlbt,Baet ofree,Bnet .o?rnnt iraftrther execution cfte shal tenten egua sesor Blair, Blickensderfe, Browo of Carroll, Cahill, Case of vs it frthr epreveHeshal,at ver rgulr essocHocking, Case of Licking, Chaney, Cook, CuiTy, Cutler 28S o'0}tIO CONVENTION DEBATES-W EDNESDAY, JANUARY S. Dorsey, Farr,'Floronce, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Mr. CURRY moved a call of the convention, which Greene of Defiancee Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, d to. Benierson, Hitchcock of Geaiga, Bolt, Hootinan Horton, The on then being on the motion to r.considHluniphre-ville, Hunt, Johnson, Iones, Kennon, King, Kirk-" wood, Lice Leenh, Ai ecy,aho }tell, .Morehead Mloriis Mrcloud, McCormnici, Norris, Orton, Air. MASON deminded the yeas mid nays, anddbePatterson, Peck, Quiglev, Rinney, Peeinelin, Scott of Ao in" ordeed, resulted-yeas 45, nays 51 as follows: glaize, Sellers, Smubi of Wyandit, Stanbery, Stanton Ste B - glaize, Sellers, ~rrii t l ton, Stel) YEAS-leesrs. Blair, Chahey. Cla~l kE~'wing, Farr, For!-,es, bints. Struble,'I hemipsohef Sh~elby, Thompson of Stark, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, tiootman,lHum Towoshendi7,ince of Butle Warren Way Wiln, Voo- phreville, Hunt, Jolinscii, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Leech, bury, Worthin'i~ton and Presi'dent-71. Leadbetter, Lidey, Mlitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Pat. So the motion to fill the blank with the words "tivo tersen,Quigley, luimey i,eenieli,iie Sc ttofugize, thousand" was disa~reed to. Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Sti(clney, Stidger, thousand" was disareed to.1 Struble, Swift. I'hompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, The que:tion then being on ngreein,g to the twenty- Townshend,VanceofButler, Way,'Wilson Wsoodbury and seventi amendmen t, to wit: add at the end of section 1 Presidt the followifil: N.&Ys-Messrs, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, lBarnett of Preble, Bates Benirett, BHickensderfer, Browi of Provide. T a.hLisis'. eh,l haveatho rity 10 tincease Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, or di such at sy ariii after thie vear 160. Chambers, Coilings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, tint ii,'a'h' ~c list IC il I* niiitisatiaa of thie I,,,. Gillett, Graham. Gray, [Iamilton, Harlan, iawk ins, Hen nof tie ic.~, at ttime i t is sadl.." derson, ititchcc ck of Cuyahoga, Hitchcrck of Geauga, Holt, //orton, Hunter, Kennon, i.,arsh, Lawrence, Manon, Mason, It was di iagreed to and the section, as amended, 5orehead, Morris, McCloud, ()tis, Peck, Sawyer, Scott of re-ads a~-, folloiiii Harrison, Smith of'Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, "Sr8e i T 1 he Governor shall receive for h-iis C Swau, Taylor, Warren, Williams and Worthington-l51. pensattioni - dollars per annuim." So the motion to reconsider was diseigreed to. The quest ion then being on agreeing to the twen T he question then being on filling the blank with ty-eighth amenddinent, to wit: In section 19, line two the proposed amendment of the Conmm,ittee of the Whole, strike out'he word "legislature" and insert in lieu Who le, Mr. VANCE of Butler demanded a division. thereof the words "General Assemnly," the sani Ta e taereed ofud the words "Gi-~neral AS~eTion the sas follows question being first on inserting the words "the agreed to a,n d the section a,,- amended reads as follows:, Secretary of State," it wam, agreed to. "Sac. 19. The Lieutenant Governor shall receive, qenretary of tas," t wo rds whio a~ndil( liotithesicine ofGieGenralAs The question then being en Itnserting the words whil ateiiiii upn te s-ttngsof he eneal s-"Treasurer and Attorney Genebral for the term of two sembly, aI President in the Senate, five dollars per dav.11 years," it was agreed to. Trhe que'5ion thenr beint on -greeing I-lo the twvent The question then being on inserting the wordsl"the y-Auditor for the term of four years," ninth ameidniit, to wit,: in sect~ion 20, line two strike AS ON t enterm dof four years," out the words "time and," it was agreed to. The qeo -i'oti then beirin' on at,~ ricing to r dered, resulted, yeas 52, nays 45, as follows: The qli,stit o t h e hirti e t Y]EAs —Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, aiendenr", tioivs'to In section 20, lines three and four, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickienisderfer. Brown strike out t -'i words "for the term of tw'o years" and of Athenis, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Lickinsert in li thereof, the words "the Secretary of ing, Chaibers, Coilings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, FlorState,'ireelu,3-,rer, and Attorney G-eneral, for the trm enci Gillett, Graham, Gray, Hamilton, Harlan, Henderson, oitfheci of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Btolt, Horton, of two years, the Auditor for the term of four years Banter, Kennon, Kii1 wood, Larsh, Lawre nce, Ma Mr. ttU-:I'}REVILLIE demanded a division. son, Morehead. Morris, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Sawyer, Scott The qiestion turning first on striking out the words of herrison sniithof highland Smith of Warren Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stie well. Swan, Warre% Wil"for the teaim of two years." p iro ms and Worthingtoc-tS2. Mr. RL-ELELTIN Moved to perfect the words pro- NaYs —Messrs. Blair, Gahill, ( baicy, Clalk, Ewing, Farr, posi(:d to he'.;tricken out by strikinig out the word Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck. Hard, flaw"two" and insetrtiing in lieu thereof the word -"threel," s, HIotman Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, which wasi disagreed toc4-, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, icCormick, Norris, Or ton, Patterson, Quigley. Panhey, leemelin, Riddle, Scott of The q-les,ioo then being on striking out the words Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, "for the teerm of two years." Thonipson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark. Townshend, M r. t l S (Idemanded the yea. aii riays, an d be- Vatice of Butler, -'say, Wilsou, Woodbury and President img ordered, resulted-yeas 51, nays 46, as foilo S4 em was yE,s —?essrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barriet of Montgomery,Sot emedetwsareto Yak ~-ee'sArrhb'd Babie Brncl f McTgc'y Ihe questicit then tbeing on agreeing to the thirtyBarnett of chle Bates,.bennett, Blickensderter, Brown of Athens, a',rowitef Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of i second amieudmnint, to-wit: In section 26, line seven, iug, Chainers, i ollitigs, Coolk, Carry, Caller, Ewvart, before the word "becoiiie" ilsert the words'"the inFlorence, Gille,-t Grahani Gray, Hamilton, Harlan, cl inbeiit," it was agreed to. derson, Hitchcock of Cuyat.'oga,, Hfitchcock~ of Geauga,.Hlt d ig lt IThe question theit being oil agreeing to the 32nd Horton, llun,ter, Kennon, Larsh, Lawr en ce, Marion, Mason, Morehead, Morris, Mc,Iloud, ()-is, Peck, SawIer, Scott of amenditient, to-wit: "In section 20 in lines 8 and 9, Harrison, Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, strike out these words-,"for the remainder of th3 term Swan, Taylor, Vane of Butler, Wlarren, Williams and for which he was elected, or until the disability shall Worthington-51. NkYs-!Iecssrs. Blair Cahiil, Chaney. Clark, Farr, Forbes be rernoved,"and itasert in li"tt of the words tiroposed to Greene of iDefia,nce, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Ioot. he stricken out, the following-"niitil the next annual ila, humpihrville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirktwool, election, when such vac-aticy shall be filled up by an Leech, eadbeter LidAev Mitchell M'orm-niceei Nornrs, provided the death shall have occured thirty ton, Patterson,ai gley, F~tl anney Reemelsn Riddle Rull, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of I'Syatidot, ate'bbins, days previous S'tidger Stidger, Strable, Swift, Thompson of,Shelby, iThcmp-' Mr. LA[IS[- demandled a divisioti. scn oi Stark, Townshenrd Way, Wilson i, Wocodbury cnd The questilois theit turising first cii striking out, it Presidenl-46. ~~~~~~~was agreed to. So the motion to strike out was agreed to. ql he questior' theii being on unsertuing the amend The ~ique'ion then being oni filling the blank with meiit proposed by the committe of the whole, the amendm.ent of the commh-tt,ee of tiec whole, Mr. LARSH nioved to amenid the words proposed to Mr. VANCE~, of But~ler, moved to reconsider the be iniserted by strikinig out the word "death" atid in vote by which lihe word~s'-for t~he term of two yaem-," serting in lien of the saeie the word "vacaticy," which was stricketi out. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ w a agreed to. 289 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, JANUARY 9. Mr. WOODBURY moved to further amend the that a clause be inserted in the new Constitution, au words proposed to be inserted by inserting, the word thorizing the Legislature to organize counties with an '"election" where it occurs in the second instance the area of three hundred square miles. following words "for the residue of the unexpired Referred to the Committee on Miscellaneous Sub term," which was agreed to. jects and Propositions. Mr. STANT'ON iuoved to further amend the words The same gentleman presented a petition from John nroposed to be inserted bystrikilug out the word"annu- C. Ldalton, and 58 other citizens of Clinton counlty, al," which was agreed to. praying that a clause be inserted in the new Consti The question then being onil the amendment of the tution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any committee of the whole as amended, it was agreed to, law legalizing the sale of spirituous liquors. and the section us amended redds as follows: Mr. McCORMICK presented a petition from Nathan 'c. 20. T,,: SS i-re'ary or State, tle Auilitor, Treasurer and Steele, and 29 other citizens of Vinton county, on the Attonlley Genreral, shall li,e erted at the, samie places anid il the Altotie ~~reri hi~ saie pace a'i inthesame subject. miiianer as the Goveinor-tihe Secretlary of State, Treasurer, a Saidetitions were alreferred to the Select A.torney Geueral for the term of two years-the Auditor for the Saidpettonswere severally referred to the Select term of foitr years, and until their successors in office shall be Committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. qualified. If'the office of either of the otlicers, in this sectlio Mr. HAWKINS presented a memorial from S. F. iiarled, sal l ecoi vacat ly iiiiieachmeuit, resilatin, (letil Cary, on the:subject of inserting a clause in the or removal, or the incumbent pecome iii-al~ai le or perforingin title duties o' the office tie Governor sha I fill the vacanicy until organic law prohibiting the enactment of law licensttle next annual eiection, when such vacancy shall be filled b)y ing the sale of liquor. a, election for the residue of the u,ex)piied( term; provitd(l tle Referred to the Committee on the subject of retailvacanicy shall have ocurred thirty (lays previous Their coni- g ardent spirits. Ipelisa,tuon to be tixeti I]y law." trh STILWELL presented a petition from E. Buck The question then being on agreeing to the thirty- M. nd e fm E cthird amendmenit, to wit: In section twenty-one, line gham and 70 other females of uskingm county, one, after the words "appointment is," strike out these oil the same sutbject. words, "by the Constitution," which was agreed to. Tf e same gentleman presented sundry petitions The question then being on agreeing to the thirty- from V P. Bennet, J. P. Caldwell, and 41 other citifourth amendment, to wit: In section twenty-one, lise zeus of Muskingum county, on the sane subject. two, strike out the word "Legislature," and insert, in Mr LARSH presented sundry petitions from Joseph lieu thereof, the words. "General Assembly," it was Mills Wesley Andrews, and 50 other citizens of Preagreed to. ble county, on the same subject. The question then being on agreeing to the thirty- Said petitions were severally referred to the Select fifth amendment, to wit: "Strike out the whole of Committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. fifthtamndtwenty-oto,wit: w starieeou thewoleo section twenty-onie," it was agreed to. On motion of Mr. RIDDLE, the (Convention again The question then being on agreeing to the thirty- took up the report of the Committee on the Execusixth amendment, to wit: Add as section twenty-two tive Department, with the pending amendments. the following: "The General Assembly shall msake The question pending being the motion of Mr. provision, not inconsistent with this Constitution, f or MAo, to strike out all after the word "elector," in filling casual vacancies in office," it was agreed to. line two, of section three, Mr. MANON moved to further amend the report by Mr. REEMELIN moved to amend the words prostriking out all after the word "elector." in line two posed to be stricken out, by striking out these words, of sectiongotala thewree. in"and has not been a citizen of the United States Mr. SMITH, of Wyandot, moved to amend the twelve years." words proposed to be stricken out, by strikilg out Mr. hITCHCOCK, of Geauga, moved toperfect the all aftet the word "electioib," which was agreed to. words proposed to be stricken out, by striking out the all after the word "election," which was agreed to. The question then being on striking out all after word "twe ve," andinserting in lieuthereoftheword "five." the word "elector," pending which, five." Mr. RANNEY demanded a division. Mr. WlLLIAMS movedthat the Coavention adjourn Mr. RANNEY demanded a division. On which motion, o The question being on striking out the word on which motion,, ~~~~"twelve," it was agreed to. Mr. REEMELIN demanded the yeas and navs, and "twelve," it was agreed to. M.beingordered resulted yeas 55 nays 40, asfoliws The question then being on inserting the word being ordered, resulted yeas 55, nays 40, as follows: YVssMessrs. Architbold. BarneL of Molnitgoriery. Barnett of "five," Preble, Bates, Bennett. Bliekeitsderfer, Brown ot Carroll, Ca- Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays hill, Case of Hockig,i, C:,aney, Col!ings. Curry, Cu' er. Ewart, and bein ordered, resulted yeas 40, nays as fol ~~~~~an en r d e e, r s l e e s 4,ny 58, as fblFlorence, Gree ne of Defian GreGregg, Harlan, Hitchcock of lows: Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geatiga, Holt, Hootinan, Hortou, Humiphlireville, Hunt, Jones. Ken,inot, Kirkwood, LarlI,, Lawrence, YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett ,eeeh,.,adbetter, Lidey, McCoi-nick. Norris, Orton, natiney, of Preble, Bates, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Riddle, Sawyer Scott of Auglaize. Snith of Highland, rmith Chambers, Collings, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Gilof Warren,, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidoger, lett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Swall. Taytlo, Titotlplson of Sheitty,''owushend, Way, Wil- Hard, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchliams, Worthiington attd Presideit-55. cock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Leadbetter, Mason, More NA~y~ ~sr. Bair,Case of Licki, Chaters, Clark, Cook, head, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Ewiing, Fart, For-es, Gratiant, Gray, Groesterk, Haniltuti, Smith of Warren. Stanbevy, Stanton,,Stilwell, xilliams Hflard, Hawkirns, Tieiflerson, Huter, JohnIson, Kifig, Maiton, and Worthington-40 Mason, Mitchell. Morehead, Morris, MifClotid, Otis, Patterson, NAt&s —essrs. Arcihbold, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Pleck, Quaigley, Rceiielin. Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smnithi of Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Clark. Cook, Dorsey, Wyandot, Stanton, Sirtille, Swift, T'homipson of Stark, Vance Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hawkins of Butler, Xarreu, Wilsoin ant ~Voodbtiry-40. Holmes, lqolt, Hootman, Jumphreville, Hunt, Johnson, So the motion pievailed, and the Convention ad- Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Lidey, journed. Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Oiton, Patterson, Perkins, quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott EIGHTY-THIRD DAY. of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thump THURSIDAY, January 9, 1851. son of Stark, Townsherd, Vance of Butler, Warnen, Way, 9 o'clock, A M. Wilson, Woodbury and President-58. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment Mr. BLICKENSDERt ER moved to perfect the Prayer by Rev. Dr. Hloog. Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from James T. words proposed to be stricken out, by striking out the Mr. MCaRlId pre sented a petition s rom James T *. _ no. +. ^.. ~~~~~word "years," which was agreed to. ,aldwell, and fifty-two other citizens ofOhiot], praying # 290 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAAY, JANUARY 9. T "fifteen hundred" after the word "compensation" oa which motion he demanded tie yeas and nays and being ordered, resulted-yeas 6, nays 91, as followss: Yzors-Messrs. Chambers, Clark, Cutrry, Lidey, Morris ant SNVift-6. NB,Ys- 0eassrCs. Andre wN, Archbold,Barbee, Barnet of Mont. gomery, Barnett of t'reble, Bates, Bennett, llair. 8ickens. derfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, ColliHngs. Cook, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hlanilton, Hard, Hartan,'Haw. kins, Henderson, -/itchcock of Cuyshoga, Hitchicock of Geauga. Holmes, Holt, I-Hootman, Morton, [Iumphreville, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennotn, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, i,eadbetter, Marion, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkiks, Quigt,iey, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Anglaize, Sellers. Smith of Warren, Smith of Wy andot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilweli, Stickney, Struble, Swan Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren,Way, WNilliamis, Wilson, Woodbury, Wortlhington and President- 91. So the motion watt disagreed to. The question theii being oil striking out all after the word "1 receive," Mr. RANNEY nmoved to perfect the words to be stricken out, by striking out the words "dollars per banntim" and inserting in lieu thereof the following: Th such sum as may be fixed by law, which shti not be increased or dimi nish ed duirin g his term of o ffie -" Mr. NAS[I demanded a division. The question t hen b ein g on strikin g o ut th e words " dollars per aontnum " it was agreed to. The question then being on inserting th e folltowing M Mords: "such sut ins ma ny be fixed bylaw, which shat M not be increase o dised or dininihe during h th erm of of. fice," Mr. B,ARSH moved to perfectn the words proposed to be inserted, by striking out the words "increased or" wh ich was d is agreemd to. The question then being on agreeing t o Mr. RANNEY'S amendment, the sale was agreed to, and the section as amended readi as follows: "Sr~c 18. The Governor shall receive for his compensa. tion, such suni as may be fixed by law, whieh shall not be increased or diminished during his time of office. Mr. ItlTCHCOCK of CuLyahoga moved to reconsider thre vote by which -section 16 of the report was stricken out, Pending which, Mr. MAASON moved that the Convention take a recess. but withdrew the motion at tile iequest of Mr. CASE:. Mr. CASE of Lickingv I designed on the day before yesterday, Mr. President, to have called the attentionI of two or three gentlemen on this floor, who appea. to have misunderstood my remarks on last Saturday, to the inanuscrii-t report of them, which I now hold in my hand,anitid so far as any controversy is concerned, ill the hand writin.g of the Reporter without the alteration of a single word or letter; but I was prevented fiotl doing so then by the adjournment of the Con,ventioni at noon over to this morning. I will now read so much thereof as show,that I as well ax the reporter am right and that a few gentlemen here are wrong. [Here Alr. CASE read sundry extracts from the Reporter's manuscript of his speech going to establish his statements, and referred to the reporter to state whether the paper t'rom which he read was not in his hand writing and just as he was reported at the time of the speech-ton which the reporter assenlted.] I will now state that ill this mnorning's Cincinnati Enlquirer, isf a statement that those genitleentl to whom I have referred as misunderstanding my remarks, on last Saturday, did in stating their understanding of thlem~irap~ach ~y veracity. I now put {be question dis The question then being on the amendment of Mr. REEEMELIN, Mr. MASON dernmanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted-yeas 60, nays 35, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Bennett,Blair, Brown of Athens, Brown'l Carroll, Cahill, Clark, C:ook, D)orsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootmani, Humphreville. Hunt, olluter, Johnson Jones, Kennoon, Kirkwood, Larsh,, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell,McCormick Norris, (:)rtoni, Patterson, Ferkins. Quigley, Reemelin, illid die, Sawyer, Scott ot Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of WyaLndot, /qtebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark,'I'own,shend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Woodbury and PresidentP0. NAYs-Messrs. And rews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery Barnett of Preble, Bat-s, Blicliens(derfer, Chambers.. C(ol linggs, Curry, Cutler, Fleo.ence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hitchcock of "uya hoga, Hitchcock of Geaugca, Horton, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCeloud, Nas, O ti s, tecis, aScottof Harrison, Smi th of Warren, Stanibery, Stanton., Stilwell, Williams and Worth ington-35. So the amendmen t was agreed to. The questite bnon then being o the otion to strike out after the word " elector," Mr. CHAMBERS i moved to perfect these wowds propo sed to be str icken out b y inserting the word i been" before the words "1 an inhabitant." The question then being on the motion to strike out all after the word " elector," Mr. HUMPHREVILLE demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted-yeas 56, nays 38, as follows: YEAstesrs. Blair, Cahill, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ecwivn, Farr, Forbes, Gr ay G rGreene of Defiance Ge, Gregg, Groesbec, Hawkins, lendlerson, H olmes, Holt, Hootoxan, Humplreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwoot, Larsh, Lanwretnie, Leecl, Leadlbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitch. ell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, quigley, Raniney, F-eernelin. Riddle, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbinste, Stickne y, Struble., Swal, Swift, Taylor,' tho t -pson of Shelby, Th ompso n of Stark, TowlsCend, Warren, W ay,, Voodbury and President-56. Nasi,YMessrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athen s, Brown of Ca rroll, C ha mbers, Collings, Curry, Cutler, lgore ce, Gillett, Grahamm, Green of Ross. tamilton, Hard, eHarlan, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Sawyer, Scott of Iarris on, Smi th, f Wa r ren, at,hnbery, Staniton, Stilwell, illiacns and Woirthlin,ton-.,8. So tahe mo t ion to strike out was agreed to. Mr. BROWN of Athens h eaoved to strike out the whole ofr section o3, or which motion, Mr. HOLMES demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted-yeas 16, nays 80, as follows: Y:.ss —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montg,omery, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carr oll. Clannn bers, Gillett, Green of Rtoss, Hard, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Mason, Nash, Reenielin and Stanton-16 lNAYS-Messrs. Archbo lde, Barsett of Preble, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cabill, Clark, Collinigs, Cools, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Gorbes, Grahamri. Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hfarlan, -awkins, iienlerson, Hjitchock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, footman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Ken noni, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence. Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mianon, Mitek ell, Morehead, Morris, iMcCtou, McCormic[l, Norris,'Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkinis, Quiigley, Ralnney, IiddLe, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandlot, Stanb~ery, Stebobinls, Stilw-ell, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thomrpson of ShelbY, Thompson of Stark, Townshenri, Vanlce of Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Woodlbury, Worthington and Presidlent —8. So the mnotion to strike out was disagreed to. Mr. BENNETT moved to further amend the report by striking out all after the word"a receive " in section 18, and insert in lieu of the words stricken out the following: "ssach compensation ase may be fixed by law." Mr. MOOR RIS demand ed a division. The same gentleman moved to perfect the words proposed to- be stricken out by inserting the words 20 291 ~OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURsDAY, JANUARY 9. tinctly to those gentlemnen, whether in that respect they are there correctly reported? Mr. LEECH. I heve no desire to do injustice to any inan, much less to the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE.) But, sir, I think I am not mistake n i the statement I made, on a former occasion, in relation to the matter now in controversy. 01n the occasion to which I refer, I stated that I understood the gentleman from Lickii)g, in a portion of his speech, to assume the position that the Democracy of Olhio did not make the question of the repeal of charters an issue ill the canvass for a convention to amend the constitution. That was my imipressionl then, and it is my impression still. As to the direct question propounded by the gentleman from Licking, I will say that I do not consider that I have impeached his veracity. I have merely stated my understanding of his remarks. Mr. SAWYER said that in the remarks he made on Tuesday he certainly did not intend to imixpeaclh the veracity of the gentleman from Licking (M,r. CasE.) Mr. MITCHEL,L. f must still reiterate what I before said, that I clearly understood the gentleman front m Licking to state, in the first part of his speech, that the Democratic party of Ohio did not make the doctrine of the repealability of charters a test question prior to the assembling of this Convention. The gentleman asked "in what county the doctrine of repeal was insisted upon by the Democracy?" and I replied "in the county of Knox." Mr. GREGG. As I am among those called upon by the Gentlemanti (Mr. CAsE) to answer whether or not I "impeach" his "veracity." 1 can onlv refer to what I before said when this subject was up and which has, as a matter of course gone upon the official record made by the Reporter. I did not impeach the veracity of the gentleman (Mr. CASE.)but I denied the correctness of his statement with regard to the position of the Democratic party, and I still adhere to what I then said. Mr. HITCHCOCK, of Cuyahoga. One factoought to satisfy every man, that the gentleman from Licking is correct-for when he was speaking, the gentleman from Columbiana interrupted him and read a resolution of his county on the subject of repeal, and then added, that he supposed Mr. Case would contend that that resolution was prospective and Mr. Case replied that it certainly was. Mr. CASE resumed. Mr. President, all the gentlemen alluded to in the "Enquirer" having distinctly disclaimed, what is therein imputed to them, I am one-ebut I owe an apology for having in this body referred to so contemptible, dirty and libellous a paper as this ("The Cincinnati Enquirer") andl I will and do now most humbly ask pardon of this body for so I doing. I ask pardon of members on the right as well as on the left. I ask pardon of the officers sitting here before me —yea-I ask pardon of the little messeng'er boys about this Hall, and last and by no means to be overlooked, if there be a solitary half-starved mouse dancing about this chamber, I in the most humble manner, ask its pardon, for it too have I offended. Str. C ASE, of Hocking. Mr. President, I have had my attention called to an article in this morning's Cincinnati Enquirer in which I am, very much to my surprise, represented as a Bank President! (laughter.) ql'he only notice that. I think proper to make of the Editorial in question is, simply to state that it is unqualifiedly false in every particular. I never was a Bank President nor do I hold any office in connection with the institution alluded to. On motion, by Mr. xsoN the Convention then took a recess. 3 O0CLOCK, P. M. The question pending being on the motion to reconsider the vote by which Section 16 of the Report (on the Legislative Department), was stricken out. Mr. MASON said he had expressed his views fully upon the propriety of a qualified veto power in the hands of the Governor, when this Report was discussed in Committee of the Whole, and he only rose now to call attention to the argument he had then made. The section, conferring that power, which was stricken out in Committee of the Whole, does not confer upon the Executive the authority to pass a bill or to defeat it-it simply provides as follows: "Every bill or joint resolution which shall have passed both houses of the Legislature, shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the Governor; if he approve, he shall sign it; but if not, he shall return it with his objections to that house iii which it originated, N,ho shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. if, after such reconsideration, a majority of the whole number elected shall agree to pass the bill or resolution, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other house. by which it shall likewise be reconsidered; and if approved by a majority of all the members elected, it shall become a law, notwithstanding the objections of the Governor. But in all such cases, the votes of both houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the members voting for and against the bill or resolution, shall be entered on the journals of each house respectively. If any bill or resolution shall not be returned by the Governor within days, (Sundays excepted,) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner, as if he had signed it, unless the Legislat ure sha ll, by their adjournment, prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law." It appeaSs to mre that such aa proisio) wi ll pr ove a remedy for hasty and ill -cn sidered legislation, a s als o upon excessive legislation. I will remark that I am informed that a majority of the framers of our present Constitution were really in favor of providing for the exercise of a qualified veto, but owing to the extreme unpopularity of the tlhein Governor of t the Territory and a ls o to te fact that he hbad r ecommended such a provis ion, i t failed to receive the sanctioni of a majority. I trust that the motion to re consider the vote b which the Convention refused to strike out Section l1, will be re-considered, and that the principle of that provision may yet find a place in the new Constitution. I might, and with somne propriety appeal to gentle. men on the other side of the chamber to support this motion to reconsider and to vote with me for so democratic a measure as that of a "veto." I believe that by so doing they would make thousands of votes Jor the new instrument in the adoption of which we all have so much interest. Mr. RIDDLE. I shall consume no time in the discussion of this question, but I trust that the motion to reconsider will prevail. I am decidedly of the opinion that the interests of the people of Ohio would be materially subserved by a constitutional provision for a qualified veto, not a veto which would require two thirds ofall members elected to pass a bill which had been returned with the Governor's objections, buta majority to vote. for it before it could become a law. Mr. BROWN, of Carroll I was a member of the committee on the Executive Department, and withheld my name from the report, on account of its containing this section sixteen, which the gentleman from Clark is so desirous of enjgrafting upon the new Constitution. I grant that his argument was a good one, but it reminded me of Ovid';s description of the Temple of the Sun —the workmanship was better than the materials. [Laughter.] That gentleman [fir. MAsoN,] appealed to the Democratic sode of this chamlber for assistance in adopting this vel o provision. Now I will not, in this case, appeal fromn Caesar, 292 AFTER,'40ON SESSION. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TIUuSDAY, JANUARY 9. but I will appeal [turning to the Democratic side of the chamber,] to Ctesar. [Laughter.] And I will advise those getlem,n, that if they -—... to sce,tlis Constitution adopted, they had better steer clear of this "veto" provision-give it a "wide berth." I know that they, (the Democratic members,) desire to engraft upon this instrument hard money and antibank provisions, and I can tell them that such provisions will be all that the disposition of the people to adopt the new Constitution will carry through. Add the veto provision, and they whole is inevitably defeated. I hope the motion lo reconsider will not prevail. The question being Upon reconsidering the vote by which section sixteen was stricken out, Mr. MASON demanded the yeas and nays, which be-ing ordered, resulted yeas 41, nays 50, as follows: YEastMessrs. Cahill, Charney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance. Gregg, Groesbeck, Henderson, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, King, Kirkwood, Leech, Leadbetter, Li(tey, Mason. Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Wilson, Worthing,ton and President-41. NAYs-'lessrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Treble, Bates, Benniett, Blair, Blickenisderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Clark, Collings, Curry, Cutler, Ebwart, Florence, Gillett, Grahanm, Greer, of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan Hawkins, Hitch cock, of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hurter, Johnson, Kennon, Larsh, Lawrence, Manon. Morehead, Morris. MecCloud, Nash, Otis, Patterson. Peck, Ranney, Smith of Warren Smith of VWyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Thomipson of Shelby, Townshliend, Warren, Way and Wood. bury —50. So the motion to reconsider was disagreed to. Mr. MANON moved to further ameind the report by s triking out the whole of sections 18 and 19, which was agreed to. Mr. WOODBUR Y moved to further amend the report, b y addi ofg at the end of sec tion 22. the, following: "Provided that in filling vac ancie s by electio n it srhall be for teGueo th e residue of he unexpired terr, which was agreed to. Mr. LEADBETTER moved to reconsider the vote b y which the convention agreed to section 22, which wa s agreed to. The questio n then be ing on agreeing to section 22, It was disagreed to. Mr. REEMELIN mroved to further amend the report by addi ng as a n additio nal section the followi ng: Sc. hos. 2s. Tie officers, c onnected with the Execitive Departme,.t, or with any of the public State Iristh utions, shall, at least five (ays prea-eding each regular session of t he General Asseml'ily, tratis,it ts th lL te G oveo, the report s which t- he iq y tey e t dlireted to make by law, who shall transmit the sam!ie. with h s mnessag,e, to the General Assemitly."1 Which was agreed to. Mr. LARSEH moved to further amenid the report by striking out of section 11,line four, these words "Eos he ray think proper subject," to such regulations; which was disagreed to. Mr. MASON moved to further atnmend the report by addinf, as an additional section the followtiuig: " Svc. ~3. Tl.e:'e roay I,e es.ta Itseod ill the office of Secretary of.t. a e.a+t,f' si f.t ilct,er gtictih reg-ulat'ots as m,iay the cue- ri,edi Iv tow." M\4r.. k$O0N. l believe sir that the e.gtablishment of such; departmrent would be productive of the mnost benleficial results. We, have nothing of the kind now in the State except some fragmentary information collected lhy the'Secretary of State,with regard to common Schools. I believe that this bureau would develop one of the most useful institutions in Ohio —would become a department more visited and referred to by citizens of all classes, than any other. The vast amounit of v aluable and accurate inlformation, would be of the g restest service to the/Legislature at each sessions as a basis for all political, religiou s, educational, agriculttural, fiinancistl and scientific calculations. Such a baY?-Msr uld indicab e the progress s r the peout! -the progress of art and scie nce in Ohio. But I will not enlarge-I merely offer a proposition, for the estab lis hment of such a bureau, an d leave the matter to the Co n vention. The question being upon ag reeing to Mr. MASON'S amendmen t, the same was disagree d t o. Mr. MITCHELL moved to reconsider the vote bTy which the convention refused to strike out section 3,. which was agreed to. The question then onl striking o ut the whio le of secti o n 3, it wa s agreed to. Mr. CURRY moved to further a me nd the report by^ striking out section 17. Mr. REEnMELIN moveed to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out by striking out all after the, words "when the Senate shall be equall e euly divided," flor the section and insert in lieu thereof, the following:' "An( tile General Awse,lIvl shall ty la,, prodetide for the case.' of resnoval, deatha resineat on or itkalwility cf Loth tte Governor an d th e Lieitenait Govern,or." - Mr, MASON demanded a division. The questi on the n being o n striking o utall afte r the word " divided" it was disagreed to.'; Mr. MASON moved to further amend the report, by inserting after the word "divided" il section 17, the following, which was ag reed to:h ' Tlhe Senate shall choose a President pro tempore'-n'i the absence of the lieutenant Governor, or when heshall exercise the office of Governor." Mr. HUMPHREVI[,LE moved to further awin' section 17 by striking out in lines two and three thes words: " qualifications and eligibility," which Wuas$ agreed to. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga moved to fur her' amend the same section by inserting it) the second lin, after the word {' maniner" these words: "and for th, same term of office," which was agreed to. The same gentleman moved to strike out in the same section. in lines three and foujr, these words,: Iacl-, his termof office shall also be the same," which was agreed. to. The question then being oni thee motion to strike ou-tlthe whole of section 17, Mr. CHAMBERS demanded the yeas and nays,? and being ordered, resulted-yeas 19, nays $1, as forlows: V.:s —Tessrs. Chambers, Clalk, Curry, Cutler, Ewart FLorence, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Henderson, Hflt, Keni-iii La.wrence, Leech Mlitchell, Morris, Peck, Scott of, Harrison, ~truble and Worthington-19. N-Ys —Mlessrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of, M ~ontgomery. Barnett of Preble, lates.!- enueit, Blair,v vBlickensderfer, brown of Athens, Brown of Carri,l1, Cahii],f Case of liocLiing, Case of Licking, Chaney, C(;ilings, ( oL, i, orsey, Ewing Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, t;reene1 of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg. lard, Harlan, H4awkinso,Hitchcock of tuyahioga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes,: Hootman, Horton, Hurnphreville, Hlunt, Hunter, Jchbiso,i Jones, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leadbetter, Lidey, Marion. Ma,aoa. Mlorehead, McCloud, McCormick,!ash, norris, Orton, otit, Patterson, Perkins, (.luiglcy. Ranney, Reemeliin, Rdiid-le Sawyer. Scott of Auglaize, Sellcrs, -Smith of Warren, Smittk of Wryando(, Stanibery, Stanton, Stebbins,,Ftilwvell. Stickle' hey. Swan, Swvift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thomp~ son of Stark, Towrlshend, Warren, Way, Williams, WilsoA, Worthington anid President —81. - So the motion to strike out the whole of section 17, was disagreed to Mu. HAWK[NS moved to further amend the report-i by adding at the end of section 1, the following, e'ancl such other executive offices as may be created by theGeneral Assemnbly." The question having been stated by the President — I I 0- a t - a, orir vs aA~ asrs. tUler, P,w;arl.' ~ -allai. Lrree:,e ot kelnance, Greei of Ross, Ham,ilt(iii, itch, - rock of Cu. alga, Bortin Johnlson., Kennioni, Larsh., Lawrence,Leh Pthl, NMor-ehieadl, McCorimick, Na-sh,'Norris4, Orton~,l)tis, Pec-k, uiey Scott of Hlarrison. StaiiiOl!, 1eti ns, Strlk-, Towislei:d, G G ay,Ha,Vina, WilHen son, S,lote o o p ai nd he or ventoi o —. a. So the motion prevailed and thep Colive~tioll adjourned. I~a'~l!l~l}~.bt~i~l, orenieaa, iict-iouai, ivici-;rlnlK, xashi, Q~ig!ey, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, itaiitoni, tilwell.'i'hompsoo of Stark, Williams and Wil. son-a-42. .,. s —essrs. Archb4led, Barbee, Parnet t of Preble, Bates, ~,"tr:Oahqill, Chaney, Clark, Lorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, (.rceijo of l;efaiance, Greg~g, Gr-oesbeck, Hawvkin%, Henderson, Mfoltt Hootman, Humphreyi le, Hunter, King, Kirkwood. ash feadbetter Lide i },anon Mason Mitchell, M orris, Iourir,' Orto0, Ois,% Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Ranney, IR, ueeiin, Riddle, ~awyer,,Icott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith (9f WVyaidot, Stebbins, Stickney, Itruble, SwaD, Swift, 'J'sylor,'I iiompson etl Shelby, Townsaeid, Warren, Way, WV,oobuiry, Worthington and Presidcnt-56. 9o the motion to adjourn was disagreed to. ?The question then bei-ng "shall the main question be — mow put." Mr. MITCHELl, demanded the yeas and inavs, and ,ing ordered, resulted, Yeas 51, Nay-. 48, as follows: Vi,As. —.Nessrs. Blair, Cahiill, Chan,iey, Clark-, Cook. C'urry, T)(osey, Ewing, Fair, Forbes. Gray, Greene of I)efiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, flard, Hawki n rsw enderson, Hootman, 1i aiphrreville, t, iHuntler, Kemao, King, Kirpiwood, l ai i, Lidey, Manon, litchell, Norris, Orton, Patte r s on, Q-:cgle, Rainey, Reerelis, Sawye, Scott of Auglaizc, Set lets, Smith of Wyaridot, Stebbins, Stickney, "truble,,Swan, :.qift Taylor, Thoimpson of Shielby, Towansbead, Wair rens '~'ay, Wilsoi, Woodbury ai I residen ts51. 'I-[,ys-Messr-s. Andre(,ws, Archhold, Barbee, Barnet of rolgoniery, Bariett of Preble, Caatesr, Ba t o eniett, BlickecnsdBrown of Atheic, Biarown ofCarroll, Case of Hockicg, Case of l,iclinag, Clhambers, Coilinigs, Cutler, Ewart, t.loreice, Gile-t, Graiam, Green of Ross, Hamiltoii Harla/itchIicock of Cuyahoga, Ilitchcock of Geauga, Holt, M/foton, Johnson. Lawrence, leech. Leadhetter, Masoii, 1Morehead, Flonis, MeCloud, McCormick, Nash, ()tis, Ieck, I crkiis, Iiddlie, Scott of Harrison,,milh of Warren, Stan - itry, Stanton, Stilwell, Thompson of Stark, WAilliams andd Vcithington-48. ',.So the dem~and., for the previous question was sus. tat ied. The quey s tion then being on the motion of Mr. IIAWKINS to amend setion 1, it was disagreed to. Th'le question thebn being on ordering the report to be engrossed. Mr, NASH demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted, Yeas 74, Nays 25, as follows: YeA-r-Messrs. Andrews, A'rhio!,i. Barhcte, Bales. Beninett, IR ir, Brown of Carroll. Cahill. Case of Lickin,% Csiiihs,merso C'ae,,Clark, C,11,i~igs, Cook~, Ewar-t, E~wingL,. F'arr, Forbes, ~~'itet, Gra.ltiasi, Gray. Gri-ene af Defiaie, G, e_,, Griesl:elk. Hasislusi, Hard, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Ciyahoga, Hitchcock of Gm,eiga, Hotot Hootmian, Huniphrevitle, Hoijt, Huniter, Johiss5)i, Krnno,. Kisig, Kirkwood, Lirst,.lanoai, Mason, Mitchell, M,:CIotad, ENoris, Or-toin, Pa'terson, Peck, Perkiis, Galley o EIG4HTY-FOURTHl DAY FRIDAY, January 10, 1851. 9) O"C'LOCK A. W.~ The Convention met pursuant to adjouriitienit. Mr. SMITH of Warren, presenited sunidry petitions from H. Cary, P. S. Lat.iman, S. Rocklill, William Sweiney, John F Loydl,and eighity-tliree other citizens of Greene county, praying that a clause be inserted it% the new Constiiu'ioii, iroliibiting the Legislature front passing aniy law legalizijug!r-tfiic in spirituous ]iquors.; The same gentleman presented a petition from Emi ily Hollings, Ann C. re-y, Margaret Costy, atid one lhundred and niinety-oiie other fiiaj'es uf Greeuie county, onl lIe.Fatye subject. Mr. BROWIN of Athens, present,( a petition froiu Thomas Davis and thirty-two other males, and Nancy Crtawfeor-d and twef vty-foiur females, of Vinitob county, oTg one t m namM e p u)je cl. Mr. WORI'HIN GTON presented a wetitihta frof M. Lewis and one iundred and fifty other citizens o f Ross count y, on tSWe same subject. Said petit ioins were severally referred to the Select Comnmittee'lot) te subject of retailing arden~tspirits.'" Mr. MITCHELL called attention to the published report of the debates on the inorn~itg of' December 27th,, By a misconception of some remarks then offered as to tie proper iety of restricting speakers to fifteen miinu tes, hie was made to cen~sure the gentleman from,Morgan, (Mr. HAWKIrNs,) by coupling his namle with that of the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAWIE-R,) ill the same sentence. This was not iintended —he would not wishi to apply such language to the genttleinan, (Mr. HFAWK:INS.) As to my strictures upon the- course of the other genitlem-an, (Mr. SawYFR,) I frankly admit that my remark-s were too seveie. I trust that e,(lr.Sw -YER,) is already convinced that I regret the remarks then made., and that I cherish ntone but respectful feetings towards him. i twif, Wa rene,, Way anl Woordttryv-41e. IN,,z.- M ss^rs. Aildrlews, Barbee, Browni of Athtensi, Cahill, dCase of Iaie~kiltg., Ciey. 1;C ar-k, o se,wi,g, FaLrr ForIb~es. . eele ct' Defiallne t' ee- of t s. GRe o e, Groes!eclt, Hard. Hendter.r,o, PLis9(eC, t,,lt. H.)o l0mal, Humll reteile, Hlile t t{ (ltter Jo)nes,( K' rkw (, Lw reince, L;ech, a,(thbetter, Li(ley. Iditcheli. G I toni?tattersoi. Peirkin is, ely Ranuey, S awver, Setal of Atilaize, S! le s, Sniti of Wyaidot, StelhiisSt h.tck,ey,,id, Swa., Tavor i or,tpsoofiely ThomIse of t y era.sl (of SIark. T,wnslthet,lia Wi lson, WVortthirgtonn an,d tPresi t — 51 So the motio i,w was disagre.ed to. On mnotiotn of Mr. SAWYER, the Convenition took cap report numrber one of the Committee on "Public Debts and Public Works," with the pending amendments. The question being on agreeing to the first amendmelt, to wit-. A id at the end of section f ive the fol(lowintg "Unliess such debt shal l hav e b een created for the ptrlwse of repeiiing invasion,or to suppress iinsurrection, or to) defend the State in war;" the same was, agreed to, atand the -ection as amendeo reads as foltows: "SEc..[. Toiime t,-'is.attre shall n ever, on behalf of tlhf state, aisa)l.e the leits ol anly colsly, city, to'vn or tow.lhip wi'thill tleis eia'e, Ir (o atty rorilor.tioll who,ltever. tness stich deht shii tl have leet created for the [trpo-se of repeililtg invasion, r to scopr ii1s ilslrrect'ion, or to defend ithe state ill war," T~he questiota then being on agreeing to the second ameindrient, to wit- Ia section seven, line two, strike out the word "provided," and insert iii lieu of the same [he word "created;" it was agreed to. The question theni being on agreeing to the third amInenlimrent, to wit In se(,tion seven, strike out lines. five anid six, ansd irn,rt the following: Ashould be willing to retain the largest sum which cozd:l possibly be raised, and made applicable to tihe ptiyme,t of the Stat e debt. I d esire, as onle of the representativest of Morgan county, to diminish t he State debt tas rnepidly a s possible. Bu t there are other districts of tte St ate whose local tniaxes are muctul mod re oppressive than those of the county which I have t he hono r to re. present, aind ot that account, I am desirous that th-e3n sum proposed to be raised shall be entirtly withill 10ou means. However, I do not desire to iss t upon the adoption of any provision, ei ther with re fer en ce to ti f th or any other syubject, w hich cal nnot commanL d the support of m ore that, a bare majority; but I should miyEetf be glad to go back to the sum originally reported b y theo sta nding commit.tee. Iregrettoperceivethatoe gelatleman, (Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cu yahoga,) who has take na-, great deal of painis to informii himself of the facts conInected with this subject, is, nIot now in his place- ati4 I could al most move that the subject be passed over until lie shall be present, for I know hle desires te be present. This amend-emot is certainly very imp)orttant. It proposes materially to reduce tbe sum to be applied to the extiniguiishment of the State debt. Mr. OTIS. I would inquire of the chairman or the standing committee, whether the actual difference between the sums to be raised as reported by the standing committee and the committee of the Whole, is IlOt somethina like $150,1)00 or $1i60,000? Mr. HAWKINS. I have not looked at tt e figtred lately, but I think that is about tie differenenc Mr. ARCHBOLD. I undderstanid the chairman oi the cornmittee, to state, that the sum to be raised unjder the amendment, will be less; and that is what attaches me to the amendment. I think that good faith anid good policy demand of us, that we should make exertions to pay off the State debt. But I do not think it expedient to make any spasmodic exertion. Our abi4ity to pay, will be much greater, in seven or eight years, than it is now; and it is therefore, that I prefer to begin with the, smaller amount. Let this be r~ ,nembered, that, if beyond the interest, we diminish the principal of the debt, in 1851. bv $100,000; In 1852 by $106,000; and so on, this compou,-ding ratio will not increase the amount of taxation; but the barden of the public debt, will be continuallydecreaR,;,by little and little till at at last, it will wholly dissolve, like snow in the spring. "Be suifi..i'ient to pay tihe a,..rt~ ~nter,e.st on the pit!lic del t f thle state, a,d a& tiually to rediic the prilcipal, l!y a suin o101 '/es^.tl~an (me l tmfd,'ed thoistaud (dollars, increased yet-ly, adnd each and ever y year, I yv c( pepu nld ittnterest at the rate of six per ,.e. t per gao. n d o u 9t'-' Mr. SAWYERT decattded a division. The question them being on striking out the fifth and ,Lixth lines of section seven, Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, and The questioin then being on i niserting the amendment of the Comntittee of the Whole, Mr. H-AWKINS moved to tvmend the same, by insertinlg after the words "one hundred," the words "and fiity,'" on which motion ite demanded the yeas and nays, and(! being ordered, resellted-ye,as 27, nays 68, as followlsn OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JAvNUARY 10. MIr. SAWYER. I am confirmed ill the opinioln, that period, upon tile plan of the ameindrnent reported which I expressed in Colin bus; and I tell you gen- fromt the Committee of the Whole, would be something tiemen, now, that I will not give my consent to any more than $10,000,000. proposition for the liquidation of the State debt, in any Surprising, as it might be to many, this was the re shape or form, until we shall first arrive at some defi- suit of a very critical and accurate calculation,which he ilte conclusion, in relation to some other matters. explained by a brief statement of figures. Wlhilst we were at Columbus, I referred to a resolution He then glance(l briefly at the history of the operation offered by the gentlenman from Summit, [Mr. OTis,] of our Dreseit tax law, to show, (that he had heretofore which was full of meaning with reference to this sub- elaborated ) that it was to be expected, at any rate, that ject. It was to the effect, that the committee on Fi- tilhe people would be taxed to the utmost amount which uance and Taxaton, should reporta scheme for raisilng they could bear, easily; and here he drew an argument U suffims{."ia, unt of reX,u?: to drofav the exp.nses io_ favor of withdrawing the revetnue from other obiects, of governmenlt, and pay off the State debt, withlin-I (to which it would certainly be applied, withouta con forget the time exactly-but the debt was to be paid stitutiona! intervention,) and applying as much as pos precisely at that point of time, when the present State sible toward the extinguishment of the State debt. 'anlk charter shall expire. Some gentlemen are op In conclusion, le begged the gentleman from Au posed to taxing the banks now existing; and by the glaize [Mf. SAWYEa] to reconsider his position, ani(l see votes and speeches upon this floor, it is discoverable, whether it was required, either by ecoLomy or good thdt we s-all not be able to compel the banks now policy, to continue this evil of a public debt, because chartered, to pay taxes upon their property, as the rest we could not get rid of that other evil of a discriniiia of us do. tion upon the tax list in favor of money vested in banks. 'Ir. ARCHBOLD, (interrupting). Upon his prin- The whole amountt of the capital of all the banks in ciple, then, the gentleman ought to support the amend- Ohio, was but as a drop in th- bucket, conmpared with ineut. For, by the provision, then, it will require the aggregate amount of taxable property ill thile State. thirty or forty years to pay off the debt; some longer Although he himself would have the balnks contribute than the bank charter will last. their equitable proportion of the reveniue,yet he would Mr. SAWYER. The gentleman does not know not oppress the people by a continuance of the public what I am driving at. The amendment is just what I debt, until the time should arrive when the banks could am after; only [ want to reduce still lower, the amount be taxed as other property. to be raised-and I shall make that attempt. If gen- Mr. KIRKWOOD liked the phraseology of the tlemen will come utip to the principle of taxing every amendment, better than that of the original section, but description of property alike, then I am willing to go lie desired to increase the aniual amount applicable to as far as any man toward payiig off the debt. Oth- the extinguishment of the principal of the debt, from erwise, I do not care particularly about keeping up $100,000 to $150,000. He preferred the form of the our public stocks to high water mark. amendment, because it gave every man to understand precisely what was to be the amount of reduction; Mr. OTIS. I wish to -ay, in reply to thegentlemanp li which could not be gathered from the original section from Auglaize, that, when I introduced the resolution wihou o e gathee w w iin toith referied to, 1 mentioned the time, I did, because, I n- without some calculation. He was wlling to fix the er d to, Iat the rateiwe,I did as no pi of mount of reduction as high as it could be sustained. dersaood, that, at the rate we are now paying off the He believed that the State,, as well as an individual, debt, it woutd be accomplished at thlie period mentioned would make toney by payiig its debts. He wa s as in the resolution. I wish to say further, that I am sirous ak fin b li he a desirous as his friend from Auglaize could be, tD have wil'ing, that all bankintig capital should pay its just and eropr ie Sa e tx be iry ,v 1 1,.all the property in the State taxed equitably and fairly equal proportion of tax toward defraying the public but he could iot e in favor of coi uig a greate debt. And I wish to say one thing further; that, up evil, for the sake of endeavoring to overco me a lesser on the passage of the law of last winter authorizing evil. the taxation of banks, the branch with which I am The question being upon strikig out a potici of *...' ~~~~~~~Thle question being upnol strikin out a portionl of coinnected, imiliediately came in, and paid the tax up. Sec. 7, -d inserting other words, 2,, w r ~~~~~~~Sec. #, and inserting other words, on their capital stock, as upon other property. Mr.' AWYER dema ed a divisio of the question, I introduced the resolution, not with the motives at and th e same turning first on trikig out, '. ~~~~~~and the same. turnlng firstt on strikings out, trip uted to my, but iu good faith. tril uted to m-. but in good failli. Mr SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, and Mr. SAWYER. The explanation is sufficient. But M sa e red, the result was-eas 71, nays .,.. ~~~~~~the same being ordered, the result was —-eas 7i, nays there was a cointcidence between the time of the expi 23-as oow ratien of the bank charter, and the time proposed to be a f ~ EAS -Messrs. Andrews, Arcbbold, Ba~rbee, B~arniet of' fixed for the payment of the debt; and I confess I was Montgomery Barnett of Peble Bates, Benett Brown of a little suspicious of the gentleman from Summit. Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaimle hoped the paymentof thede.t would be sograduated, hers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Curry, Curry, Butler, as not to throw all the burden upon the present gele- Dorsey, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray; ration Attierpe imh holdm e u Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeckl, rtion. At the proper time, he should move to reduce Hamilton Hard Harlan Ueodcsson Hitchcock of Geauga, the proposed amount to be applied to this object to Holmnes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Hunt, Hunter, John.$500,000. It was his opinion that the original sec- son, King, Krkwood, Lidey, Manon Mason, Morehead, * tion would extend the time longer than the amend- Morris, McCormick, Nash. Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, -ru~~ e ii t. ~~~~Peck, Qui,ley, Ranney, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auroent. glaize Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell Tay Mr. HAWKINS. The scheme of liquidation in the lor, Thompson of Shelby, Townshend, Warren9 Way, Witreport ci the Standing Committee was it:tended to ap. liams,Wilson and Worthington-71. ply to a debt of $16,000,000. That was assumed to Nsls Messrs Hlickensderfer Hawkins, Hampbrevle, be ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Jones, Kennon. Laish, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Mi~tch.be the sum of the State debt at the time when this ell, MeCloud, Perkins, Reemelin, Sawyer, Sellers, Smith of ,provision would go into operation. The sum proposed Wyandot., $tebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, to be raised by the original report, would extinguish Thompson of Stark and Woodbury-23. that debt in about the period of 30 years, and by this So the motion to strike out was agreed to. plan, it would be done at an imnmense saving to the The question then being on inserting the amendpeople of Ohio. The difference between paying the ment of the committee of the whole; namely, these debt within the period of 30 years, as suggested in the words: "Be sufficient to pay the accruing interest on report of the Standing Committee, and going beyond the public debt of the State, and annually to reduce 296 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 10. I hope the amendment of the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HAWKINS,) will not prevail; and that even a less amount than $100,000 will be agreed upon. With reference to the subject of taxing banks, (having some little connection with the matter of bank'iingl,) I say here, as a banker, for myself as well as for those with whom I am connected, that I am willing perfectl -, and always have been, that our stock should be taxed as other property. But, it is well known, that, in their zeal for taxing banks, gentlemen are anxious to overtax us, and unjustly, to tax our means beyond those of other men. Let the Legislature present us with a fair system, and I venture to say, that there are not five banks in Ohio that will reject it; although they could not be bound by it. Mr. REEMELIN. Are you willing that your stock should be taxed as mercantile property? Mr. BARNETT. I am willing to be taxed as all other people are taxed-that my property should be taxed just as all other property iii the State is taxed upon the ad valoremr principle. Mr. REEMELIN. Loans and credits? Mr. BARNETT. I am willing'to be taxed as all other men. I wish to read my proposition for infor mation. It is as follows: Strike out "$100,000," and insert "$75,000." Strike out "the rate of six per cent. interest," and insert "such rate of interest as will pay the debt in thirty years." Mr. LARSH saw no necessity for so long a time as forty years to pay the State debt. Hie felt very much disposed to go with his colleague, [Mr. BARNETT, of Preble,] for this reason: The sooner the debt is paid, the smaller will be the amount of money we shall have to pay. Mr. NASH believed that all that was necessary if anything was necessary to be inserted in the Constitution upon this sul)ject-was to settle two facts, namely: a recognition of the debt, and that it should be paid. This was all that should be done here. This body ought not to legislate upon the p rinciple of taxation. They might legislate with safety for the present; but the contingencies of the future they knew nothing about, and could exercise no control over them. This business should be left to the General Assembly. There was another consideration. The State debt was hereafter never to be increased beyond a million or a half million of dollars. This provision would effectually cut up the idea of constructing works of internal improvement by the State. He did not ob ject to that. But the people were desirous of making improvements for themselves; and if the State should undertake to pay off the public debt too rapidly, it would effectually prevent this also. He hoped gen tlemen did not mean to put a stop to all the contem plated works of improvement in the State, upon which the future growth and prosperity of the State so materially depended. Company alter company were now engaged in the construction of variotus rail roads in different sections of the State, all necessary for the developement of its resources. Should not gentlemen be careful, then, to leave "room and verge enough" for the operation of this policy, and not think to cripple it by an effort to pay off the State debt. It was a mere question of policy and statesman ship, as to what period should be fixed for the extin guishmnent of the State debt; and the only difference of opinion shoulld be, as to whether all the resources of the State should be turned towards the payment of t~he debt, or whether a portion should be left to be applied to works of internal improvement. He submitted further, that ill the course of the next five years, almnost the whole of this debt would be held the principal by a sum not less than one hundred thousand dollars, increased yearly, and each and every year, by compound interest, at the rate of six per cent. per annum.' MHr. HAWKINS moved to a m end the same by insertingt after the words "one hundred," the words "and fifty." On w hich motion he demanded the yeas and nays, and the same bei ng ordered, resulted, yeas 27, nays 68, as follows: YEOisMessrs: Bickensderfer, Chaney, Farr, Hawkins, HTenderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hootman, Humlhreville, Kennon, Kirkwood. Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, M(;Cloud, Orton, Perkins, Reetyeln, Sellers, Stebbins, Sticklrey, Swan, Wilson, Woodbury and Wortbington-27. Nos-teMessrs. A ndrews, Archbold, Barbee, Bartet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, i genenett brown of A thens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Thambers, Clarl, Collings, Cook, Curry, Cutler. Dorsey. Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray. Greene of Def iance, Green of Ross. Gregg, (itoesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hitchcock of Geauta, Holmes, H olt, Hort on, Hunt, Hunt er, Johnson, King, Manon, Ma son, Morehead, Mor ris, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Sawy er, Scott of Har rison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Warren, Smith of W r re hoWy andot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Struble, Swift, T ay lor, ThompseTon of Shelby Thompson o Stark, Townsbenid, Warren, Way and Williams-68 So th e moti on was isagreed to: and th e i question again r ecurre d up on inserting the amendment of the co mmit t ee of the whole. Mr. BARNETT of Preble, now m oved to aenend the words proposed to be inserted by striking out the words "one hundred"and inserting inlieu of the same?, the words "seventy-five. Mr. RANNEY demanded a division of the quuestion, and then t he first question was upon s b striking out the words "one hunidred."' Mr. BARNETT of Preble. During the summer I took ground against a sinking fund so large as $100s000, and gave my reasons. I was not, h owever, v'ery well understood, I suppose, and I do not know that I shall be able to make myself well understood now. But I cannot very well sit still in my place, and permit the ma t ter t o go by in silence. I then proposed to strike out $10t,0w00, and insert $i 5,000, to be increased bv such a compound interest ratio, as would pay off the public debt in a given timne-ally time which might suit the views of a majority of the Convention. The chief object which I had in view was this: that we should commence with a smaller sum at first, such as might better suit the present condition of the people to pay. It appears to me that we are about to deny to the people, for the present, the power of making any of their very much needed public improvements: that we are about to dells to the people of our townships, counties and cities, not only the power of engagin~ il those works of improvement upon their own means, but also the power of loaning their credit for those obiects-and so throwing the whole matter upon individual exertion. While- we are making these radical changes, I cannot but think that is im portant, that we should begin with a small sum to be applied toward'the public debt. And I cannot but think that the Convention would come to this con clusion, if they would consider the matter thorough-. ly. If we are to make all our improvements byr means of individual capital, it mnust be obvious to every mind, that we cannot progress very rapidly. It seems to me it would certainly be impolitic to tax the people high nwow, whlen the debt would be paid at even a lower rate of taxation, after our population and resources shall have beten increased, as they will be, under the auspices of a wholesome system'of publ1ic. imnprovement. i I I i i 297 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRIDAY, JANUARY 10. the state; their capital, securities, issues and money, could be brought upon the tax list, upon a leve! with other taxableproperty. But there was, at this moment, no assurance that this would be done. No act of this body, was likely materially to increase the amount of property upon the tax list. This body would, ill all probability, shrink frorml the responsibility of resuming so much of the franchise enjoyed bly the banks, as exeriipts them in part from taxation. He would, therefore, appeal to his partv friends,,to vote down this whole proposition, and substitute a sinple guarantee to the creditors of the State, for the future payment of the debt. By taking this course, it was possible that they might, ill time, revive the consideration of t h e sub ject of the resumption of franchises; fotr, he believed, that If so much of the batik franzhises wer e resumed, as allows them now to r e mai n untaxed, it would create a new source of rev enue, wh ich would be sufficien t to supply the entire am o un t pro posed for t h is sinking fund. With respect to the propriety of the provision under consideration, he did not w ish to sav anyth ling. As a matter of legislative detail, he doubted i ts propriety sod feasibility. But he oppose d it now, upon the broad ground, that it was inexpedient to impose upon th e people, this prospective increase of taxa tion, wist, at the same time, we s hrink fron tile responsid ility and the d u t y of resuming so much of th e batik fra enchises, as exempts i, n a them i whole, or in part, from the opera - eotIs of the geaneral tax law. Mr. MANON defined his position. He should vote adtainst tthi s propositionf. He claimed, that, if it might be to the advantage of all individual to keep money borrowed at 6 per cent., i t might tbe wisdom for the State to de f er the pa yment of the public debt. His opinion was, that the State should inot be cotnpelle nto pay this debt in a givnen le ngt h of ti me. He never indulged the tb houliht t hat th e d ebt should not be paid at all. But he desired first to see the property of every man plac e d upon equal footing wtitle respect to taxation-bank property a nd all. He doubted not but that the Legi,slature w ould see that the debt was paid, as soon as the people wo uld be ab le to to pay it. [Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga, next obtaining the floor, addressed the Convention for about fifteen minutes, glancing rapidly at the leading features of the section as originally reported from the committee on public debts and public works, (of' which he is a member,) and comparing them with the proposed amiiendment, reported from the comnmittee of the whole,-replying to every objection which had been urged this morning, a.,vndicatinig the proposition of the standing comnmi-ittee by sundry statements of figures, derived from his speech, whch will be found on page 430 ante.] Mr. RANNEY moved a recess, but withdrew the notion to enable Mr. MORRIIS to ask leave of absence till Monday next, which was granted. And then, on motion by Mr. RANNEY, the Convention took a recess till 3 o'clock, P. M. ~ by idividuals living out of the State. The State stocks of this country were going again to Europe. Public confidence was being restored, s o that Un ited St ates stocks were the bestin the torld. Ap d theco,IsequeI,ce would be, that every dollar applied to the payment of the public d ebt would be withdrawn from the fibctive capital of the State. It was no matter he re whether the debt had be en brought about loosel y or not. Th e obligation to pay it rested upon thl e S tate, and ipi the action to be had here, the public interest should be consulted. Md r REEMELIN. Tlhe g entl eman had affirmed that tlhe payment of this debt was a mere question of expeoiexicy. But the real question was: Is it a bles.sihg, or is it a curse? If it were a blessincg, the State should hold on to it. But if it were a. curse, they should get clear of it ak fast as possible,. He knew that when then subject came to be considered in this revolutiornary body,'hye hoped the gentleman from Belnmont would not expt to the phrase,) they would consider te debt a curse-a thing to be got rid of as fast as possible. Tlie same political party which nursed the national debt were now here nursing the State debt, and the principles advocated by his "native" friend from Gallia, represented the views of the capitalists ill Wall street. New York, and Thread-Needle street, London, and if those men were here to-day, they would applaud every sentiment which that gentleman had uttered. He looked -at the prices of A mericani secu rities, and saw that stocks rullnninrg to 1870, w,ere worth 18 per cent more than those running to 1855; and he inferred from this, that every hour the payment of the debt was prolonged, was but increasing the bturdenis of the people, instead of relieving them. Of all the sophistry he ever heard, the gentleman's argurnent was the nmost palpable. I-le fancied tt at he could see a lurking smile upon the fine Anglo-Saxon face of the gentleman, (Mr. NAsI,) speaking with a power of expression above his words, to this effect"Bo)ys, how I am deceiving you!" /ILauglhter.) Ile showed that the only impl)edirmienit to the State's barrowing money upon the best terms, was to be refered to the lack of punctuality in the payment of old debts; and that the maln who was really in favor of money bo rrowing by the State, should be in fa vo r of the St at e paying h er deb ts as fast as they become dnue. He nuoped thaSt it would bgin to be unders tood at last, that there was a party in this country,-a distinct political interest, in havor of public debts, whose viucleus was i n Wall street, but whose ultimate constituency were in London, Amsterdam and Paris. The capitalists of E urop e were apprehensive of repudiation at homve. Th ey f el t in s ecure of their own people, and they were tur n ing their eyes towards this country, as they would look upon a fat oyster. Tthis was the reason why our State stocks were travelling over to E urope. He aff ir med, therefore, tha t the snei who nursed a State d ebt that went t o be paid in Eu. rope, was the friend of the European capitalist, rather than the friend of his country. Mr. TAYLOR said he had expected that the views heretofore expressed by himself upon the subject, would hlave been met with a niore hearty concurrence on the part of his political friends. He had also vainly hoped that the report of the committee on Finanlee and Taxation, would have removed some of the objections to this measure, which rested upon his mind. The point was, that we should not take the responsitility of imDposinIg an additional burden upon the people, in tile shape of a sink ing fund; unless a certain description of property-that was to say-tHe prop-.rty of the banks of AFTERNOON SESSION. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. The question pending, being on strikinig out the words "one hunidrbed," ill the amendment of the comnmittee of the whole. Mr. KIRKWOOD briefly remarked that he was in favor of paying off the State debt, within the shortest time possible for the accomplishment of so desirable an object. 298 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JAN.UARY 10. Unless (said Mr. K.) a definite provision, for the decides otherwiso, I have acquiesced without opposicreationi of a sinking fund that wouild ensure the pay- tion. merit of the public debt of Ohio within a reasornable But I cannot agree with the gentleman fromi Trumtimrne, is fixed in the coinstitutioJi. I caniot-with my bull, that we should not pay as much this year as present views-consenit to any recomi nition of that those who may pay taxes twenty years hence. We debt in this instrument. contracted the debt. Those portions of the State Mrr. KENNON. The pending question is notwheth- upon which the taxes fall the heaviest, are the very er a Jpublic debt is a public blessing or otherwise. portions which have been most benefitted by the pubThe simple, plain and direct questios is "How soon lie works; it is, therefore, just that this generation should the public debt be paid?" I hold that that should pay as much as the next. which, in financial matters is ood policy for an indi- The questioni being upon th( motion to strike out vidual, is good policv f,~r the State. I shall vote to the words "one hundred thousand," MIr. HENoPso secure the paymnent of the hi,,hest sum aninually to demanded the yeas and ilays, which resulted yeas be appropriated for the payment of the State debt, 21, nays 71, as follows that has been natned. YE —-Iessrs. Bar,iett of Preble, Bllckeneserfer, Case of Allow me, Mr. President, in abrief maiiser to make I,Hosking Cook, Curry, Cutler, F orbes, G naharn. Green of a calculation1 to) ShOW how iiii-ch each citizeit of 0 I Ross. Holt, Hunt, Leadbetter, Manon, Raiinev, Sawyer, ealeulatlois to show how iiiiich each citizei of Ohio Scott of Auglaize, Stanbery, Stidger, Swift, Taylor and would have to pay, if the whole public debt was to be TIownshenii -21 paid off in one year, snppo)silng all State stocks to be NAYs-Messrs. Anlrews, Arcihboldl, Barbee, Barnet of sold at their par valiue 1The public debt is somethinsg! Montgoimery, Bates, 1Bennett, Brow f of Atheus, Brown of . ~ P.,. ~ 1.... ~! Carroll, Cahill, 4,harnbers,,ollinigs, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, less than fifteen million,: of dollars. The last Rep ortoene, Gillett, Gray, Geene ot Defiaoi(e, Greg g, Groesr of th~~~~~~~~~~epAdior ftae exiisforhnrd nff5lorence, Gillett, Gray, Gieene of Deliianee Gregg, Groes. of the Auditor of State, exhibits four huidred and fif- beck, Haimiltoii, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitch. ty millions of taxable propert.y in the State. There cockl of Cuyahoga, Hitchcockl of GQauga, Holries, Hootman, is this day siot less thain fte' hundred niulions. A Horton, Humphrevil e, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Keinon, Kin:i, Kirk wood, Larsi. Leech, Mason, Morehead, M.cloud, levy of tiree per ceniit on every citizeii's property Ias,h Noruis, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, erkins, tuigley, would therefore produce a suin sufficient to' pay off Reeinelin, Riddle, Scott of Harrlsison, Sellers, Smith of Warthe whole public debt of the State. This is a per, ren, Smith of Wyandtot, Stanton, Stebbins. Stilwell Stick cent- ~amlounltint t'roulre i-ney Sa, truble, Sw an, Thompsoi of Shelby, Tonps on ot cent. amounting to one half of the lowest rate of in- StaI arren aias, Wilson, Wofodbury, Wor terest Tioniey. A levy of three atd one thlird per cent. thiigton and President-71. upon four hundred and fiftly imillions would pay the So the motion to strike out was disagreed to. debt in one year. As an idi vidual, I wouldmoto to strbke ot was di-sarreed to. w" *'' The question then being on agreeing to the anmending to pay smy share of the public debt in one year, ment of the commrittee of the whole, it was agreed to. fir I cali- see iso wisadoins i the policy of defe(rrig its The question then being on agreeing to the fourth payment. amendment, to-wit: In section 7, after the word There is a popular mistake about the amount of tax- "State" in the fourth line, insert these words,'and es for the payiiment of the public debt. The greatest whatever funds or resources are and may be provided proportion of the gross amolunt of revenue derived for by law." froims taxation, is for township, counlty, city and The same was areed to and the section, as anienldother purposes. ed, reads as follows: Suppo'i the taxable property of the State to be Suppong the taxale prpty of the State to be "Sec. 7. The faith of the State being pledgfed to five hundred miliL, a levy of tlree per ceist. would the payment of all its existing indebtedness; in order pay the public debt in one year, and a levy of one to psovide therefor there shall be created an annual fifth of a mill would produce one hundred t'holssand!siiking fund, which shall be constituted of the net dollars towards its payment. It is evident, therefore, annual income of the Public Works and Stocks ownthat to raise one hundred thousanid dollars per anu othat to rais e onehuidr" thousactid dollarb s per ainuln ed by the State antd whatever other funds or resources for this pupose is etirely practicable are or may be provided therefor by law, and such Mr. RANNEY. I sh,lil rote to strike out the words' sum to be raised by taxation as shall be sufficient to "one hundred thousand dollars," not because I pay the accruing interest on the public debt of the think this an improper subject for constitutional State, and annually to reduce the principal by a sum settlement, but because I desire to adopt a provis- not less than one hundred thousand dollars, increased ion that will secure the payment of the entire pub- yearly, and each and every year by compound interlic debt in the course of twerltv five years. I should est at the rate of six per cent. per annum." like to see its paymient equalized over that period, The question then being on agreeing to the fifth allowing the surn raised each year fi,r that purpose to amesidnient, to-wit: Strike out section 9 and substi be increased annually, as the amount of taxable prop- tute the following: erty in the State increaed. If we p,ay as intucl o5w, "The commissioners of the Sinking Fund shall in proportion to our ability, a we ask tlho(se who are immediately pecedig each regular session of the tax payers iii 1870 to lpaY w e are certainly acting General Assemubly, make an estimate of the probable honrbl*y and justly amount of the fund provided for in section seven, Within the next twcnt yeIars many portions of th from all sources, except from taxation, and report the State will be vastly improved, and abler to pay their same, together with all their proceedings relative to just proportiosi of this State debt; and, sir, they are said fuid, and the public debt, to the Governor, wh6 the very portions which have ieceived the most ben- shall transmit the same with his regular message, to efit from the construction of these public works, for thLe General Assembly, asid the Genera1 Assecibly which a great poirtitin of the public debt wa:s incurred. shall n tke all necessary provisions for raising and Mr. HITCHCOOCK, of Cisyahoga. Three-tenths of' disbursing said Sinking Fund. in pursuanceof thepro a mill less than the present rate of taxation in this visiosis of this' article." State will pay off the public debt in twenty-six years. The same was agreed to. Mr. BLICKENSDERFER. It will pay it off in The question then being on agreeing to the sixth twesity-three years. amendrisesit, to-wit: Mr. HIITCHICOCK, of CUiyahoga. I should have "Strike out sectiosi 12," it was agreed to. beeus willisg to provide for the paj rnent of this debt The questiosi then beisig on agreeinig to the seventh in twesity or twenty-five years, but as the Convention amendment, to-w'it: 29 9 4 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 11. - Mr. S. said lie did not intend to go into any dis cussion; for lie supposed gentlemen had pretty well made up their mlinds upon the subject. For himself - lie could see no reason why the people of counties, cities, and townships, should be restricted ill their power to tax themselves for the construction of such o a qailroads, turnpikes and plank roads as they reqired but there were other gentlemen who had paid more attention to these matters than himself, from whom he would like to hear. He would like to hear from the gentleman from Washington (Mr. CUTLER,) upon this subject. Mr. CU'TLER had not paid much attention to that part of the question which refers to filling the blank he would prefer that no restriction should be placed upon the Legislative and popular discretion which hlie desired to secure-because a fixed per cent would operate unequally upon different portions of the State. It would secure to those sections whose im proveinents were completed, and who had consequently a high valuation of property, a large sum when they needed hut little, while to the neglected perilous it would yield a sum entirely inadequate to their wants. At the same tinme hlie would not object to a reasonable restriction, if thereby the proposition could be made acceptable to a majority. But, (he continued,) I will state in a few words what I have to say, in regard to thbe whole question involved in striking out this 6th, section of thle Report. And I feel justified in occupying a little time, from the fact that those whom I represent, are at this time, most deeply intl rosted in its decision-m(,re so than in any other that has or probably will command the attention of this Conve ntion. I am free to admit that this question isattended with difficulties —that there has been and probalbly will beabuses i n the exercise of t his power of vtoluntary taxa tionl. I do not think it is incumbent upon us, w ho are opposed to thi s section, to show that no case will ever arise, il which th is discretion will be imprudently exercised It may be claimned however, that we should po int out importan t cases, where it will y et be necessary to ust e the credit of counties, cities, and to w ns, in completing valuable w orks o f inter nal im provement. It is conceded, I suppose, upon all hands, that no further aid is to be expec ted from the State,and havling searcely domestic capital enough for our ordinary commercial transactions, it follows that foreign aid must be b rought in upon some other securiti s. Now, a ll that I ask, is that some discretion may be laeft to the Logislal ure, to grant the power-and then for those who are solely interested, to exercise it, if they please, ill imposing burdens upOn themselves, to secure benefits which can be obtained in no other way. In pointing you Mr. President to cases which I think demand the use of this credit, I will call the attention of gentlemen, to one or two geographical facts. One is, that the northerl, central and western portions of this State are mainly adapted to agricultural pursuits —their wealthl —their resources —their means of an unbounded prosperity,. are in their fertile valleys — their wide spread prairies —the inexhaustible richness, of their surface. They early demanded and received asssistanlce from the State, to convey to proper mxarkets, their immense surplus productions. Four lines of interleaf improvements are now stretched I;rom the north to the south, and southeast across the States to accommnodate their businsess —nlot a mile of which, I wtill venture to say, would ever ha-fe been built, if they had been denied the use of State, county or city credit. Now sir, I do not stalnd here to look with envious eye upon this 1200 miles of thoroughfare enjoyed by my neighlbors, or to complain th~at ' Insert at the commrrencenient of section 13, the following, "So lon,g as this State shall possess P ublic Works which miay, require superintendance." T he sanie was a ire, d to, and the sec tions as amended, reads aus follows: Sec. 13. So long as the State shall possess Public Works which may require superinltenidanice, there shall be a Board of Publ)lic Works to consist of three meml-bers, who shall be elected by the people at the first general election after the adoption of this Constitutioin, one for the term of one year, one for the term of two years, and one for the term of three years, and there shall be elected annually thereafter one member of said Board, who shall hold his office for three vears." Mr. THOMPSON of Shelby, moved that the Convention adjourn, which was disagreed to. Mr. CUTLER moved to further amend the reports by striking out the whole of section 6. Mr. STANTON moved to amend the section proposed to be stricken out by adding at the end of the same the following, "exceeding three per cent. upon the aggregate valuation of the taxable property of Such C, aniity, citv. town or townships." Pendiiing, which, On motion of the same gentleman, the Convention adjourned. EIGHTY-FI FTH DAY. SATURDAY, Janiuarv 11, 1851. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Mr. REEMELIN moved a call of the Convention, and a call being ordered, accordingly-Messrs. Barbee, Blair, Cook, Ewart, Graham, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geatga, Holnes, Kennon, King, Larwill, Leadbetter, Iloudon, Morris, Norris, Otis, Per kins, Riddle, Roll, Smith of Highland, Stanberv. Stilw 1[,, Str-uble, Vance of Butler, and Vance of Chaimpaign, were found absenit. Messrs. Larwvill, Vance of Champaign, and Morris, were severally excused. On motion of Mr. CHAMBERS, all further pro ceedings under the call were dispensed with. TIIE EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. Report number one of the Committee on the Executive Department was read the third time. The question then being on the passage of the article, Mr. CURRY moved that the same be laid on the table and ordered to be printed, which was agreed to. Mr. SAWYER asked and obtained leave of absence for the Secretary, for a few days. On motion of Mr. HAWKINS, the Convention again took up the Report of the Committee on PUBLIC DEBTS AND PUBLIC WORKS. The question being on the amendment of Mr. STA-N'TON to sectioni six, That gentleman obtained leave to withdraw his amendment, and substitute in lieu thereof the following words, to come in at the end of the section, to wit: ,'Exceeding —per cent on the aggregate value of taxable property in such county, city, town, or township." Mr. REEMELIN desired the gentleman fromn Logan to give some reason why there should be any restriction in this matter at all. If it were right and proper for the people to vote a tax upon themselves le could see no reason why they should be restricted. And if thething were unjust and improper, he could see no reason whv it should be allowed at all. Mr. STANTON moved to fill the blank in his amendment with the words "two and a half." t s r 8 t t i t a p r 0 300 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES - SATURDAY, J ANUARY 1 1. somine twenty mnillious have been expended in their coistruction, or to gruidge the share of interest upon the cost of a portion of them, which is annually drawn from the pockets of my constituents. I rejoice rather thataagriculture, the noblest pursuit of man, has been thus cherished —thiat Ohio mainly by this development of. one of her important resources, now stands "next to the head," among tier sister States. But, sir, there is another fact connected with our natural resources, as well as our wants, which seems hitherto to have received but little atter tion. It is this: th,t th- twenity-fiv,e countiotq lying ass, of the ranre of counties through which the Ohio caniial passes, has had the advantage of State c red it in completing only about 200 miles of improvement, worth, at a fair valuation, (al though costing more,) less than a tilsion of dollars-that alth oug h a portion of this stcction of the S tate is well a da p9ted to agricultural pursuits, its gr,natest value and most important resource is found in ils inexhaustible stores of minera l wealth, w hich, beyo nd any thing else, requires the construction of e: pensive i,n)rovements,i to secure its th orough developinimet. To i ll ustrate tile effect of th is policy on the part of the State, and to present a strong case, derimandinig the use of th e credit you propose forever t, aiecry inf this se ction, 1 will call' ati t he oattention of the Convetio to s, me Statistics anid f acts connected with a portion of this nfesglected region, including and adjacent to the colunty which I have the honor to represent. It will be found, to ty referenci e to the Auditor's Report of 1849, that the present land valuat;o re of the f o llowing coun ties, (which includes most of what is now Vinton coun ty,) viz: Athenis, Gutilia, Meigs, Jacksoni, Lawrence, Hocking a nd Washington, is $9,384,907, being adi ave rage of $4,70 m)er acre. Gentlemet i mav say that this is too low a val uation, qbut I can tell them that t it is correct and fair, c orresponding w ell with selling prices a t the time th e valua tion was made-f or, sir, if we are poor, we claim to be honest. There, are still remaining unsold in the Ch illic oth e lan d district, and mainly with in the counties I have nawled, ov er h200,000 acres of public alands. Allow mte niow to state a few facts showing wha t this region of c ountry rwight become, if allowed even the p(or privilege o f he lping herself. Not to occup y t ime in dwefling upou the adrouirable facilities for producing saut to an unlimited extent, or to speak of te)e, product of the forest, the marble, burr-xillnstotie, liunmestone, fire clay, &c., which there abouaid, I will direct your attention to the itomesise. but as tyet hidden, treasuresI of coal and iron. Til e latte r. in ore of the finest quali ty, and of aasiest eaccess, is kci wiw to extend in a belt, some 192 miles in width, a distance of 100 rniles, through the coiun ties I h ave named,f equal to 1200 squ ar e mileds. A single furnace, employing a hundred hands, will yield eight tos er d;,, worh 25 per n, or an an lrual produc t of $60,000. Wih pree o top er railroad facili ties, fifty sucli furnaces would be scattered over that region within a reasonable titne. Without such facili ties the ore will remain forever as worthless as the ste. rile clay in whlicih it is imbedded. Coal, of the best quality, in batiks of from three to thirty feet in thickness, underlays the surface of all the counties enlumerated. It is easily minled; requiring ill most localities, no shafting, or expense iln draining. A single acre, of 53/ teet veinl, will produce 250,000 bushels, worth, at 10 cents, (which is lower than the av erage price, toeconsumetrs ill the markets, lo ~h ieh it might b~e taken,) $25,000. At whichs rate, a single square mile, will yield $16,000,000; or an annual yield of a quarter of a mnillion fez 64 years. The imlmenlse imprortanice of the trade, inl this arti. ele —now become of prime, necessity —is not readily realized, without comp;aring the present withs the past, or glancing at tho. counties, where it has long stood in importanice., next to food allnd clothing. Who remembemrs to have heard, 30, or even 20 years ago, of the coal business on tle Ohio river? Now it amounts from tilhe mines in Western Pennsylvania, alone, to 20,000,00 of bushels per anlnum. Look, sir, at Pomeroy, not known to your census more than 10 years ago, now tnum-bering her busy tihousands, all depending, and all prospering, upon this new business. Thirty years ago, the export of Anthracite coal, frons the Pennsylvania imines, was 365 tons; nlow it is 3,700,000 ton.- per aninum, and worth nieiar $20, 000,l)00. England, with an area of 750 square rilles of coalless tlhai two of your counties-produces annually, $50,000,000 worth of coal, to which mnight be added, $3(0,0ii0,000 worth of iron-making anll aggregate near ly equal to the entire agricultural exports of tile United States. And yet I can tell you, sir, without fear of icmincrrii)g the charge of an extravagant assertion, that Englanid,to-day, with a full knowledge of the value of tihe uliser;l region of Ohio, would exchange with you, and give both her In(dies to boot. Now, I ask, is it wise-is it good policy-is it states mais-like, to discourage those who are endeavoring, at th,ir own expense, to throw open these treasures? I can say to gentlemen flair: the centia[ and western counties, that not a single S-qU re rod of this riost valui able article, is to be found in this State, west of the range of counties, I before alluded to; and the day is not distant, when they may be glad to have their own hearth stoties made cheerful, anid their own industry stimulated, and made profitable, by the very fuel they would now lock up il tile mines of Hocking, Vintoii and Jackson counties. Again, sir, is it no object, that the lan.is il these counties, shall go on to your tax list,,,t an ilncreased vAwlue? Does any mall swuppose, that Govt ril ment would loing be an owner of themn, at $.,25 per acre, or that, they would logg relnTLill at tle lowlaverage of $4,75, if a proper outlet Nvas secured for these mines? Wily, coal lands, or rather the coal, without the laind, in Western Pennsylvania, is worth from $.51)0 to 7?00) per acre; andi if 1 ani not wrongly isfoimed, similar prices prevail in the neighb)orlsood of Nelsoiiville, whore a small portion of this miiseral wealth- just elnoughl to demonstrate its value-l-as been develolpe(, Is it all unreasonable suppositioin, that instead of $9,384,()97 the present valuation) —you would sooin have $2o0,000, 000, or an average,f at)Oult S10 per acre; nDole addi tion, than you will get to your tax list, by dogging the banks till dooms-day. But, sir, it is said, that all this can easily be ac compislhed t)y private enterprise; by individual sub s,c,iptiorn. This may answer ill liglter improve-recurs, alid where individual capital is abI)Litndanit; but it re quires an expensive work to secure ache:p transpor tation of the product of your lnires; nothing short railroads. A farmer may afford to trapsport his i, duce —wheat, for instanice —30, or even 50 rills,' comnmoni loads, with his own team A ton of mnav be worth $:'0 in mrk~t; a ton of coal, i and of course, is soon lost, in the expense of It cal never be transported 10, or even 5 niles, i upon commlonl reads, anid became an article or' use. It moust be moved by steam power, auo1( you may distribute fromn the mines [ have supply to this city, which no(w onlsu~n 5,000,f000 of bushels, or, to the Seitate at leys, whose cities, towns anld villages man,~l twice that amour.t; or eastwvar river, where it can be placed ill boats 1+ sent to supply the constantly inertia the entire Mississippi valley. 301 OI01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-SAiURDAY, JANUARY 11. Private or individual enterprise, will do niuch-very for the full value of the land taken, notwithstanding much-but unaided by the strong arm of good securi the individual land holders through whose property the ties-by which, alone, foreign capital can becomman- road,may pass may be benlefitted to ten tlii,es the value ded-it must fail of attaining the endi. of bie land used, so that hereafter we shall either have I have a little experience in this business of railroad. no new roads, which I am inclined to think is the most ing, (the ge-itleman from Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELIN,) probable result, or else the entire county is to be taxed the other day, volunteered to you, the very important to pay for a road, which is to nenefit a neighborhood in information, that I was connected with a railroad general and halfa dozen of their inumber in particular. cormpanly,) though I can say to that gentleman, that I But this i. not'he only case-thii pretended pritici am there, as I always have been through life, in other ple which is nothinig more than a crude theory-iscoit callings-aliatorer-with no pecuniary interest atstakle, lstautiv violated in every imovement that is made by a beyoind other farmers; all of whom desire such facili. I comm tinitv for a liblir good. Look at youLr school ties for transporting their produce. laws-one of which declares that a iajority in every I will venture to assert that there is not a single school district nay decide by vote to have a school kept rail road, or other important improvement in the State, six months in a year.and assess the necessary tax upon with the exceptionl of the Cincinnati and Dayton road, the property in the district to sustain it. Look at your that ever has been, or ever will be completed without laws for assessing taxes for road-and particularly the use-and without mainly depending too-uponl bridge purposes. A bridge is wanited in a rerrote part either Stale credit, or that class of credits you now of the county, where perhaps two thirds of the people propose to dei)y to the rest of us. will never see it. The tax is levied and the bridge Are we to wait for private capital to accumu- built. But it is sai(t: that these are cases of public ne late when you deny us the very means of increasing cessity-so is a railroad nlecessary. Ask the farmers it? How long slhall we wait-ten-twenty-thirty along the routes and the business men in the towns and years? We have already stood by like a poor boy at cities. where they are now rulnlintg, and they will tell a frolic that length of time, and are very much dispos. you, they must have them-aid will clamor louder at ed to protest against any further delay. Supposing their temporary obstruction than my constituents Marietta should be disposed to secure a steady and un- would, if they were blockaded all winter by the imul. iform supply of coal from tneighborinig mines to dl ive Look however at the practical working of this qlies the machilniery of her iifantit ma)uftectures-will Cleve- tion,and the Inequality and injustice is founli to vanish. laund stand here to-('ay, and say she shall not do it? Suppose a railroad is located cenitrally a dist ice of 30 Will Columbus? Will Dayton? Will even Cincin- miles through acounty-one of our four(dollar seventy nati say she sliall not use her own credit for her own cent counties if you please-aud a county subscrip benefit? lion of 100,000 dollars is voted. Every getitlenian at That 6th section says —no-although every voter in all'acquainted with this subject,will bear nme out inli the Marietta should say yes. remark, that a sudden and important rise in the value You may say that Marietta is too smtall, as yet, to of real estate almost invariably follows the co)nstruc talk about such large enterprises; Lut where, I ask, tion of a railroad —differiig in this respect from almost would the proud cities I have tiamied, stand to-day, if any other improvement. It may be claimed in the tlily had not been cherished, nourishied -yea, brought case I have supposed, that five miles oil each side of up fromn infancy to maturity, by the use of very tihese the line being a distance of 30 miles ai,d equal to 300 credits which have cast inllionis into tiheir laps. rquare miles would be benefitted, and of course vote Now sir, you would look well, after this old fashion- for the subscription, while the remaining 100 square ed way of doing business, afte,r Stat, counL)ty, and miles would not be benefitted and vote against it. city securities, have become as familiar as'houss-hold Now let us look up the burdens and see where, they words," with the money lender, to tie tagging round rest. The road is built in 1851 and the valuation is il the streets of CinciLinati or New York, alter your 1852. An addition of three dollars per acre to the rich imen, coaxilig them out of a few p)icayunts to lands benefitted by the road,would place oni the tax list make your surveys, or do the grading of your road. 600,000 dollars, which would not have been there if They will tell you that they wait to see enough of the road had not been built-the tax upon this sum at your owni moloey-of domestic means exptanded, at least 10 mills would yield 6000 dollars, nearly enough to pay to grade the road-an amountit which catnnot be secur all the interest due on the county bonds. I do not ed in manry cases, without resort to county or city claim that the results would occur just as I have stated subscriptions. When that is done, the boxies of your them, but I do believe that with a prudent expe(nditure compaty, if the r(nute is a good one, may commanad of money and a just valuation of property, the road somie credit, and you may also secure some subscrip- will provide for its own taxes and distribute the burden lion or stock from strangers. where it ought to be borne. Havintg shown, as I think, beyond a doubt, that it- It should also be recollected that the full amounlt and portant cases will arise, where the discretion which I often three times the sum borrowed,is expended in the ask you to lodge with the General Assembly and the county and finds its way in some shape on to the tax people, niay be exercised greatly to the advantage, not ls. otily of those imlyediately conceriedt, blat of tthe State, It is true that many persons in this way are compelat large. I will examine for a mtnasnlt the great ob- led to aid in works of public improvement against iheir jection which is urged to these suthscrtptiolls. It is will —there are those-and men of wealth too, who althat a majority are thus permitted to impose taxes up ways grumble at the payment of any public burden — on a minority agaitnst their coinsetit Now sir, I think but it is also true that in nine cases out of ten thev are this objection collies with a very b,d grace fromt a ma the very men who receive the chief benefits. Instead jority of this Conlventio who distinctly avowed the of the inequality so much conmplained of, gentlemen principle a few days ago, and ilserted it in the Legis- will find that in its practical operatien, it imposes burlative report-not that a nilnority should hb taxed for dens where there is the greatest ability-generally, too, the benefit of a majority, but the reverse- that a ma- bestowing ample equivalents. jerity shall be taxed against their consent, to benefit a In all cases where ordinary prudence is exercised ill very small tuinority. I allude to the principle adopt- making these subscriptions,there is no danger of taxaed, by which no State, county or township road can ev- t on at all, except for the short time intervening beer be laid out without oarulent is first made ill money,. tween the time of paymentand the completion of the 302 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATUTRrDAY, JANUARY 11. 303 road —then tie dividends on stock will pay the interest. I He depr,cated the prilicil)le of taxation asked for by It canll hrdly be supposed that any well applied funid t the gentleman from Wkashinigton, as a rule giving to the will lay idl nicre tti;n two -arm. I kniow liat nmuch i majority a right to plunder the nmilnority, a lule -very Inuch depends upon. a good route and a judi- without the sauction of any law, humnan or divine. cious-prutident expenditure of the money I will call I He proceeded also to show how the operation of such your attenitioni to a single fact which, I thlink in addi- a principle nimust affect the public credit; and, as a detioit to the local reasons I have presented'should dissi- voted friend of internal imiprovements, expressing his pate any doubt as to the propriety of urging forward- hope, that the section would not be mutilated, he conins'ead of retarding-the great railway schemnes which el uded by thanking the Stanoaio)g Commnittee for introare or ought to be projected in Ohio. It is this-the ducing it. most direct route from every important seaport on the Mr. HAW KI NS concurred in the senitiineitssoeloAtlanticcoast north of Charlestoi,toSt. LouisorSan quetitly expressed bv his friend fronm Monroe, (Mr. Francisco, tlust pass through Ohio. All the linies Of AnCHBOLD.J purely railway conniexion niow projected and being construct.d mrom Norfolk, Ricl~mond, Baltimore, Ptiladel!There is something implied (he said) in the proposi1hliia anid New York, will pass through your borders. tion to extend this p)t ivilege, which has iiot yet beet} An air line fromi Boston to St. Louis, will cross the noticed The chief portion of the small minority of Otliio river a little north of Marietta. Look at the in- the people at large, who have any spare cpital at all, mense wealth that lin,s flowed into New York-hei have collected it through years of toil, industry and earnings,as the common carrier for the whole coiuntry economy; and when any work of public improvement was suggested, they would be generally slow to subAnd Low V here there is a universal disposition to abwas suggested, they would be generally slow to sub And;io v er-, ~l~te s aa ivesaldisostio toabat.scribe, and thiey would lhave no ear for solicitations upon don the slow and uncertain movement of water transit scribe, and te would ave ear for solicitations upon the subject. They were, generally unwilling to allow is it good policy to obstruct or delay the progress ol the sobect- They were getaeraly unwilling to allow these irnprovelnents through your state? The same i themselves to be taxed beyond what is absolutely aectthese impr~ovemnents through your state? The samt golden prize which has so long been held by New York essary for the support of government. In order to is now held out to you. W'ill you turn your back uni breach thesne individuals, it is proposed that a vote Fthall i,owhdout o yu i lyotu?r bk a.be taken upon the question of extending the credit of oD it? t h e cout~tv; and thus they are compelled totbecome I have felt sir, that it is a very awkward task to stand the col; and thus they are compelled to become here in a Constitutional Convention, called together' stockholders in the work against their will. I underfor the simple purposes of remodeling the o rgalnic law take to say that there are a majority of the legal voters who pay but averv small apurount of tax; and there are of the state, and discuss these questions of iimere state who pay hut aver small amount of tax; an tere are policy-or of mnere local interest. But there is i hnt (i i dofolersn every county whopay ntaxatll position manifested not only ill this section, but in eve It is by the votes of such mel, usually, that property maitfeyourpropsted Constituols tion to strike dow is invested in such enterprises against the will of tile ry part of your proposed Constitution to strike dowI rthese works of interal improvepnot. se owner, anid the people of the county compelled to as As a friend to tese great enterprises and as a repre-i sume all the liabilities of stockholders in such an eli As a friend to these great enterprises and as a repre eltative f thos who esire their prgress ad lerprise It was a proposition to despoil individuals of seiitatiw(- -,f t~hos- who (lesire their progress and cor-thir riat property, not for any legitimate object. pletion, I have felt it my duty thus to enter ny feeble |their private property not for any legitimate object and I fear unavailing protest, against this iron restr it as a principle too palpably- ijust to ave any place in the organic law. cii upon the legislative and popular will. in the orgaic law. Mr. ARCHBOLD argued against this morality of The gentlemran from Washington had drawnaparalthe principlle of "frcing blessings" upoii the people lel between this principle and that upon whlich school against their will; and affirmed that the section which houses we.re erected; but there was 110no analogy ill the the geotletituit freom Wa:liitiglon [Mr. CUTLFR,] desired cases,f()r the support of our school interests was a coiito tutilate and destroy, wvould prevent a iriultitude of sideiultioiI far too high to be iimeasured by mere dollars sins. atd( cents. He was interested in the remarks of the gentleman I know of 110 question upon which the mind of the from Washington; but that gentleirian had itllpugnlled people bas been more deflinitely expressed in the region the potency of pivate terrize, and affirmed t i where I live, than that there should be aconstitutional the potency of private enjterprize, and affirmed thle ira possibility of having works of public inmproveryentconll lprovision to the effect that the people shlall not be co poss~~~~~~~~~~~~~ec, ibiiy lof arg ewrk if thbis imatter~.ene strutited without the use of public credit; and for proof erd ay longer i this natter. he had referred to the want of prosperity in the miner- Mr. GILLETT also concurred in opinion with the al region of the State. But the'tact was, that the stenchi gentlen ii fi'om Monroe, [Mr. AaCitBOLD,] and while of the baseness of the Virginia lan!d titles had prevent- he w as compelled to admit the correctness of the staed the iliflux of population there, as well as the general tistics of the genltlemanll from WTas'hinigton, [Mr. CUTprosperity and irmt,rovement of that region. It was in Le,] ie was nott prepared to adopt his theory. consequence of the mismanagement of public agents; He lived in a poor couinty; although, in his immewhich, in the settlement and imrpr(,venient of every diate neighborhlood, along the river, theyhad all paid country, was always reckless, wasteful and extrava highpricesfor theirlaili. It wastrue asth gentlegant. man had stated, that the average value of land was He insisted that private elnterprize would be sufficelnti not niore thia four or five dollars an acre; still, their for the construction of all our lines of public improve- river land had cost them from thirty-five to fifty dolment; and that. whenever the State interposed in these lars an acre. And now the question was, whether it niatters, it was always a losing concern. He referred to would be right that those who were living upoti the the opinions of Jean Baptiste Leay and Thomas B. Ohio river, in the enjoyment of the privileges of that Macaolay upon this subject, and was glad to be~ found natural thoroughfare, should be compelled, out of in such good company. their private means, to conitribute to the advancenent He contended that all rightful taxation was simply of the price of the lands in their neighborhood, but the price of the protection of life and property and of back a fewr miles from the river, which could not now social order. This principle was plain, easy to be un- be sold for more than $l,25 ail acre, ill order that derstood, and recommended itself to all men. It would those rich mines of coal (worth more than all the carry us through the labyrinth of every opposition. If mines of Mexico,) might he opened, and the products a tax was not necessary for the preservation of peace of iron and coal brought successfitlly into competiand social order, it was a social robbery. tioii with their owni? The inevitable consequence O HIO CONVE NTION DEBATES-SArTRDAY, JANUARY 11. would be a depression in the value of the property of these mrnen. ir,. CURRY. The gentlem,an fi~ W ashington [Mr. CUTLER,] if I understood him correctly, made the general statement. that the agricultural portion of the State ha d alr eady rec eived as tmhuch bepnefit from works of putblic improvemnerit,asto him se emed to b e desira ble; but, that th at porti or of the State, to which h e more particularly referred, had not been benefited in t his w ay to tie extent which was desirable, and there fore he claimed for i t the privil ege of being exempted t h s f a y o r e b r e, o i y i i p r. I i s t i e x te m p f h y w r o t p a, m s b o s r i e froml the restrictions of the sect ion be fore us, as well as t he restriction proposed in the amendment of the gentleman from Logan [Mr. STA-.'TON.] Now, Mr. P resid e ntt the rema rk s of the gentlem an fromi Was hiington, with regard to the benefits already conferred up on the agricultural portion of the State in this way, ar e tr ue, o(ly in part. It i s true, that i sections of the agricultural portion of the State, pub lie imeprovements of this kind have b ee n made; and the reso t s otirces u of those portion of the State have been prett yvfitirly developed by such means. But it is al so trie,e that in my section, which belonogs to the a( gicultutral portion of the State, tdley hase prot been beot efitted in this way. They remain still unbenefitted by works of internal inmprovenent,and their res ources are still a gre at extent, undeveloped. Butthe gentlemar)'s omission to make t his exception, does not in the leas t detract from the forc e of his argument. The argu ment was a verv conclusive one;t ut I very much fear, that on this occasion, it will prove altogether ineffec tuil. Getitlemen seem to me to have paid bu t littlea fo at te ntion to it. Sir, it is sometimes, Lfunortiunatedly the cas e i n th Lis, as it is io a ll deliberative bodies, that gentlemen h a ve pre-conceived opinions in regi frd to many ofn the questions, upton membrh they are called to act. And i otnwithstandill tha t s ound artunent s mtav be plainly and briefly laid before them, reason abldr sufficient to induce in them a change of purposef thev widl stil persis t in vo ting according, to their preco nceived opib ions. I beg leave to refer to an instance of this kind of action, in this body. It, has not been long since Bwe had under consideration the report o f the Standing Committee on the Legislative Departmerit. A amotion to strike (ut the 31st section was rejected by an overwhela ing maj ority. It was very evident to nay mind at the tirmie, that reembers were not attending to the discussion; and that they did no t vote un derstaldingly. About a week or te n d ays afterwards, the consideration of the same subject came ip again, at a time when gentlemen happened t o be in a better mood for de liberation, and then reversing their prrevious action, they struck out the s ection, by the etibe v ote of a very large majority. An instance of blind and inc onsidera t e action on the part of t he G eneral Asseinble may be mpentioned. During the debate upon this flo or mpention has been several times made of a law, formerly upon our Statute book, familiarly called "the Plunder Law." I happen to have sormle little knowledge of the history of that law o. It wa s i ntroduc e d as one of the finiishing features of ain e pesteh that imense scheme hich then existed, for th e expenditure of the public moteov, in the construction of works of inlternlal impr~overnlents, all over the State: and the specific reason for its inltroduc~tion was, that the previousl~y existing modes of lavishing the people's money upon those wvorkes, were too slow inl their operation. It was introduced fold the purposes of draining the people's treasury more rapidly. It-was obvioJus, from the first, to a certain small number of the members of the General A~ssembly, that that law must prosve a means of enormous ~'aste and extravangance in the public expenditures, prolific cause of abuse and corruption in public af fairst-a measure, in short, to the last degree injurious to lhe pac;'le of Oio: od they 0o sat their coil viction when the bill was put upon its passage. But gentlemen of the majority, holding pre-conceived o pinions of the matter, pushed the bill through with out hesitatioii-aliiost without consideratioii-cer taiuly without the slightest attention to the argu meents and appeals of the minority. InI the lower House of that body, there wvere thirteen votes cast against the passage of that political abomination: anid I hope I shall be pardonied if I plume myself a little u pon the fact, t hat in the record of that vote, my nale i s found wit h those of "the i-nmaortal thirteen." Sir, ther e are gentlemen iithoili t he heari ng of nay words, who witnessed the passage of that law, and who, if they were now to speak, must be constrained to endorse what I have said in relation to the manner of its passage. A.s soon as it became (l law and went into active operation, the propriety of the opposition which had been miade to it was made manifest to all men Having borne its natural fruits of public in'iulVi-lts nefarious results having,, been fully develop ed, it has now by common consent, been stricken from the Statute book. The instances which I have nmentioned, will show the dangerous tendency of the law sty and ill-cornsid eAed action o f bodieslhke this, upon pre co nceive d opinions. I hope we shall never have occasion to look back with unavailing regret upon any such ac, tiIon i of our s in this hall. And noth, iln behalf of that p u rtion of the people tof Ohio, whom I in part represent, I beg leave to say, that the doctrine of the Proposed amierldmnenit of the gentleman from Logan, is right and expedient,; and that it ought to be incorporated into the organic law of the State. I have said that there are certain sections of the ag ricultural portion of the State of Ohio, which have never been benefitted by any portion of your Public Works, any more than the minetral region, represent ed by the gery,tleiiian frolm Wtshlleton —and so the fact is. But nevertheless, in those unimdroved por tions of the State, people have been all along subject to the operation of your tax laws, and have been comn pelled to contribute their full proportion of the means which have been invested in your works of public improvement: and to that extent, their means have conduced to the ftirtherance of the interests of the people where those works of improvement have been con struclted. I sup~,ose it to he a fact, that a majority of honiora ble gentlerm-enl upon this floor, come fromn sections of the State where those public works have been constructed, and represent constituencies who have been benie ftted, and the value of whose property has been increased by the outlay of that public money, a portion of which came from the pockets of my constituenits, aind others, who have not received ally, or if any, but a very small modicum of those beniefits. And now, when gentlemen and their constitusnts have completed their works of improvement by the expenditure of money whiv h they have forcede from oulr pockets; for their benefit and not for ours, I ask if it can be poqsible that they are prepared to turn roun~d and say, to us, not only that th]ere shall be no more public money expended for purposes of this sort- that the ueople of the. unimproved sections of the State, shall lnot be permitted to enjoy the poor privilege of appropriating their own mloney to makte their own improvemnents'? R~eally, it seems to me that this would be going from one extreme to another with a vengeance! But, if gentlemen will adopt the proposition of the 304 OHIO CONi VENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 11 county from paying any considerable portion of them by means of taxation. True, it may be necessary to Fjay the interest inr this way,-ome o,ur -or fi7e years, until the work shall be completed, but that is all. I think the per centum proposed by the gentleman from Logan is too low. My own opinion is, that there is no need of limiting the people at all in this thing. I do not believe that the people have not discretion and prudence enough to know and decide how much mnoney they shall expend upon works of internal improvement at home. I believe that they do know, and can judge of these matters more correctly than we can, and that it is democratic to permit them to do SO. I have said that the amount in this amendment is too low; still, for fear the section before us may becorne a part of the organic law in its original shape, I hope the amendment cwill prevail, and that we shall have the privilege, to the extent named in the amendment, of expending our own money, for our own purposes, in our own way. The gentleman from Monroe, [MIr. APaIBOLD,] with his usual eloquence and power, has attacked the argumenit of the gentleman from Washington, with whom I agree in seiitimeint. The gentleman fronm, Monroe I as affirmed that th e argumen t of the gentleman from Washington impugnsm te grea t doctrine, that thee people shall n ot have any p olic y forced upon them against the i r will. I understood the gentleman from Monroe to lay it down as cardinal doctrine, that the majority should not have the power to levv a tax upon the minority against their will. Now, I beg leave leave to submit to th at gentleman, that, byai acting as he has always done, in support a nd furtherance of te d octrine, that there should be caused, by a majority of votes, a con tinual expenditure of the public money for the ad van,,cement of education amongst the people, he has himself impugned the very principle which he has charged the gentleman from Washington with im pugning. Mr. ARCHBOLD, (interposing, andl Mr. C. yield ing,) said: Money expended for the advancement of education is morey expended for the preservation of social order. Education makes men enlightened, mor al, peaceful, orderly anil conservative. As a friend, therefore, to peace and social order, and, as an individ ual disposed to relieve society of the expense resulting from the punishment of crime, I am justified in my disposition to advance the interests of schools. Mr. CURRY. I supposed that sort of an explana tion might have been made. But it seems to me, with deference to the judgment of the gentleman from Mon roe, that his explanation does not save him. For I submit, that in his explanation, he has h'ailed to prov one of his positions to which I object, namely: tha education is indispensable to the mainte-inance of peace and public order. I agree with the gentlemain' of course, in saying that there should be education and general public enlightenment, and that the most desira t,le objects of society are io be reached in this way. But the gentleman has failed, and must always fail, to show that peace and public order cannot be maintained where there is no general public enlightenment. The gentleman is too good a historian and too shell informu ed as to the condition of human affairs, not to know and concede that there have been and still are countries and governmnents, where peace and public order havre been preserved amongst people unenlightened and uln educated, thus demonstrating that thle preservation of peace and public order may be attained where there is no general public enlightenment; and, therefore, that education and public enlightenment are not indis enl sable concomitants of a government, such as may or gentleman from Logan, they will stop at a middle point, and do that which inl my judgement, would be right dud jasL to a'l portions of the State. But if gentlemen are determined to insist upon their extreme doctrine, le t them at least be justo. The plainest dictates ofjustice an d honesty require that they s hould first refund to u s so much of our money as has been e mnloyed to increase the value of their property, and to benefit ther in numberless ways. Give us back the money, of w hic h we have been plundered f or you r b enefit, and then you will have some show of equity, when you s ay to us, and to a ll the people of t he State, tha t y on are too wise and patriotic to permit the construction of an aadditional work of public improvemant. Gentlemen proceed here upon an assumption ofdoctrini, the incorrectness of which has beeen demonstrated bv the gentleman from Washington. by showing that ots insertion in the Constitution w ould prevent th e constr uct ion of works, which were of th e most des irable an(i necessary class, and wh ich if constructed w ould work no counterbalancing evil. In that direction.the argument hoets not yet been exhausted. There is a law n ow in force in Ohio- sanctioned by the consen t and strong approval of the people - prescribing the assessment of county taxe s for the improvement of road s and highways. Th i s has be en tong.a practised in our counties, and, although everywh er e opposed by small minori ties, has received the sanction-as I ha ve said-of the majority of the people, and of the Legislature. And I submit, whether here is no t an instance of taxing the minority for the b enefi t of thie m ajority? Ther e are some people to be found in every community, who are unwilling to be taxed for any purpo se, but the public w elfare requires them to submui t to the will of the majority. Ag a in: taxes have been assessed in this way all over the State for commoni school purposes; and there ar e gentlemen in thi s body who are it favbar of that doctrine, and a r e willing to incorporate te principle int o t he organic law, that a majority of the people in any school di stric t s hall have the power, by vote, to appropriate th e money of all tcne taxable inhabitants of s iuch d istr ict, for the purpose of constructing a sc ho ol house and furthering the general interests of education. Now, if gentlem(n insist upon the application of this doctrine to the subject of education, how can the y consistently object to its applic ation to iiportaIwt and b e neficial public improvements? Again: your County Commissioners always have been and still are, authorized to make assessments of taxes for the erection of a Court House and buildings of that nature. Although I do not positively assert, that assessments of this kind fall within the meaning of the words of this section; yet, if gentlemen insist up ons rej ecting the a mendment of the gentleman from Logan, it seems to me, that, to be consistent, they must hold and proclaim the doctrine, that assessments of this sort, of which I have just been speaking, shall not be made hereafter upon the people of any county. With reference to the objection, that the effect of the amendment under consideration will be that we shall have the assessments of taxes, distressing and impoverishing to the people of the counties, 1 have this to say. I understand the operation of a county subscripetio>n to any public stork to be some thi~ng like this. Instead of the whole amount being raised in money, there is an issue muade of county bonds; and these bonds are sold in the market,, at a certain per centurn of discount. And, after a time, when a certain portion of the work has gone into operation, it always happens, that the bonds and sub 8criptions are disposed. of, so as to exonerate the 305 306 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —SATURDAY, JANU,;RY 11. can preserve peace and social order. If I am right in something like an equality with those residing in the this stateme.nt,l then the gentleman from Mollroe is niore favored positions. And those residing iin these wrong inll his allegationl that education is necessarily a more favored positiois turning upon us, and a.ying part of governilenla)tl machinery. Therefore, in this to us, gentlemene, you shall inot do this thinrg, we respect lihe is itTmpegililg his own doctriLne, and advoca- know better than you do what position you shouild oc tilig taxation for otlher than the necessary purposes of cupy. It is for our interest that you shall be prevent governieit. ed from benefitting yourselves and you shall be pre It was also stated by the g ntleman from MIonioe, vented. If we permit you to go on, you may ulti that m,jorities ought to inule in all mrnatlers, except matelv become able to compete with us in the market, that of enfo:cin)g taxatioin for means other than the and we nmay fail to hold you in a tributary position. support of govertment. Now I think, if the gen- We will, therefore, not only assist you, but wve willre tieian were to undertake to establish that doctrine liv fuse vou permission to assist yourselves. This, sir, argument and illustration, it would puzzle him a goodt appears to me to be a just application of the illutstradeal, with all his acknowledged talents and ingenuity. tion furnished by the gentleman from Lawrence; and Let me suppose a case. A great deal has been said I very much fear that the sentimnent; thus accidentally about the disruption of the Union of these States, and exhibited by him, is far more widely spread than has a great many apprehensions of such an event have been generally supposed. been expressed on all sides, which I hope are all| Mr.GILLETT(interposingandMr.C. yielding)said, groundless. But let us suppose that result to have e ad eared wathe possessed by the hard busines actually occurred. Suppose the bondof allegiance to of boating upon the river; and he would ask, wheththe United States to have been effectuially sundered er it would be right and proper to require him to coiiby all, and each of the individual States to have tribute of his means, to raise the value of the wild entered upon the process of setting up a government. lands of his interior neighborhood, and place them in for itself; and suppose, at that critical moment of their competition with him in the only profitable trade, political history, the people of Ohio to be engaged in which he enjoyed? deterniniiitg what sort of a government they will have, M r. CURRY. I am not asking that either my esit should appear that a million of voters, if you please, teenimel file id from Lawrence, or his constituents, are in favor of the adoption of a republican form of should conitribute anything for the benefit of me or my government. constituents: but, simply that we be not deprived, by OnIL the other hand, a million and onevoter prefers a a provision of the organic law of the State, of the privkingly or despotic government. According to the ilege of making every laudatleo ard lawful effort to doctrine of the gentleman from Monroe, the kingly elevate and improve our own condition, so that we may goverimten,t ought, in such case, to be established, and stand upon something like an equality, with the nmore republicanism repudiated. Such would be the legiti- i favored portions of the State. mate result of the gentleman's doctrine. But, take Mr. PRESIDENT, I hlave no further remarks to the samie number of voters, anid refer to them for de- offer, for the reasons stated. I hope it will be the cision the question, whether a general system of edu- pleasure of the convention, to sustain the amendment cation shall be sustained and supported by taxation proposed bv the gentleman from Logan. amongst the masses of the people. Nine-tenths of Mr. MANON said, if the blank were to be filled the whole number of voters are in favor of making with any thing but a zero, he would vote against provision for the education and enlightenment of all the amnendment. He would not do anytlit)g to prethe people. One-tenth of the voters are opposed to vent the people fromii emrnpl(:ying their owin means acany such system of education. Here the result of the cording to their own pleasure. gentlemaii's doctrine is, that the one-tenth shall rule Mr. STANTON was thoroughly convinced, that ai the nine-teniths, and there shall be no tax for educa- great wrong, was about to be (l:ione by this body. A tion great evil lihad been felt throughout the State, by irm Mr. ARCHBOLD (in his seat.) I expressly argued provident subscriptions of public stock, on the part that the members of society had a right to tax them- of counties, and towns; and to avoid one extreme, selves for educational purposes. gentlemen seemed to be willing to run into another. Mr. CURRY. I know; but I have shown that such Gentlemen, who had themselves been made rich by was not a legitimate tendency of the gentleman's doc- the taxes levied upon portions of the State, less fortutrine. Education is not a necessary irncident of gov- nale than themselves, were now prepared to incorpoemrnment, and the gentlemani holds that the minority rate into the organic law, a prohibitor against the peoought not to be taxed except for governmental pur- ple of other portions of the State, making their public poses. His doctrine, therefore, involves him in the improvements with their own money. He submitted precise consequences which I have been showing. whether there was any evidence of liberality in this. In conclusion, I wish to notice another argument But, (said he,) let us lookl the matter plainly in the which has been mnentioned here. The gentlenian from face. You have, in another part of the Constitution, Lawrence, (Mr. GILLETTa,) by way of illustrating his prohibited the appropriation of one dollar of the public opposition to the position of the gentleman from money for purposes of internal improvement. Yon Washington and the amendment of the gentlerian have cut offall the means of mnaking railroads, pl-rtkfrom Logan, has told us, that the people of his section roads and turnpikes, except through the instrumeutality of the State have good rich lands, anid excellent na- of individuals or corporate enterprise. Aud if you are tural facilities for trade arid transportation; and if the about to take away the power of subscribieg stock froni people of the less-favored interior were to be allowed counties and towns, gentlemen might as awell realize to persist in constructing works of internal improve- that they are saying to the people, "You shall not ient, those works, when completed, would so oper- consruct another railroad, for a quarter of a century." ate as to bring the people of the iterior upon a foot- For,if gentlemen suppose they can make a railroad, ing of equality with himself and his neighbors, and without the aid of capital subscribed by counties and constituents who possess those very enviable natural towns, it is all a mistake. advantages. Now, it seems to me that this is just The gentleman from Monroe undertakes to say to the sort of illustration which miglitbe advantageous- me, that lo0 authority can rightfully tax the citizen for ly used upon my side of the question. We desire, by any purpose beyond what is necessary for the preserour exertions, to effect that which will place us upon vation of social order. Why, sir, this allegation is con OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JANUARY 11. tradicted by the history of every government which has ever been set up in the world, from Adam down to the present day. I undertake to say, that government may do whatever is necessary to "promote the general welfare;" and' amongst the necessities of every people, are roads to market, the improvement of rivers and harbors-improvements which are indispensable, and for which the governmlent alone can provide. This being the case, I say it is right that the people should exercise the power of controling their own means for these objects. Limit them, if you will. Provide that they shall not go into debt beyond their ability to pay; and that the majority shall not plunder the minority. But I do hold that it is a matter of primary necessity,that the people should exercise the power of constructing for themselves a highway to market. Mr. S. then went into a statement of figures showing what amount of indebtnesss might be incurred by the people of the several counties, under the limitation of two and a half per cent, and expressed his willingness to consent to any reasonable reduction of that limit. He then proceeded to show that the principle of his amendment was supported by the legislation of the State, and had been constantly acquiesced in by the people. Mr. DORSEY. There are some facts which I have not yet heard broached in this debate, and I desire to call attention to them. We have been going on for several days, I will not say abridging the liberties of the people, but hedging up their power of action; and now we propose, by one sweeping clause, to take away from the people of Ohio the exercise of a power, which, in my opinion, is most vitally important to the growth and prosperity of the State. We have declared in this Constitution, that there should be no increase of the State debt, and that the existing debt should be paid off in a short space of time. And we have done well in both of these things. We have done this in accordance with a strong expression of public opinion. But, it was just as much determined that there never should be an increase of the public debt of Ohio, before this Convention assembled in May last, as it is at this day. It was determined by the strong voice of public opinion. And gentlemeni will find, that, whenever they attempt to go in advance of this expression of public opinion, they will meet with barriers in their way continually, which they will not be able to overcome by mere eliactments upon parchment. I do not deny that the power of voluntary taxation in counties and townships may be liable to abuse. I do not deny that the rights of the weaker party may be stricken down, to a certaiu extent. But I do say, it is totally and entirely wrong to lay down an iron rule in the Coinstitution which shall constantly prevent the people of every county, township ana city in the State, from voting a tax upon themselves for ths construction or c ompletion of public works within their borders. The sixth section of the report now before us, prescribes that ther e never shall be, under any circu0nstances whatever, any tax levied by any county, township or city authority, for internal improvement; and the amendment of the gentleman from Logan proposes to extend the exercise of this power under a given limitation. Well, this is better than nothing at all. I am willing~ to vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Logan, if I can got nothing better. But) if that amendment does not prevail, I shall vote to strike out the section, believnge that the whole matter may be better provided for in another D~art of the Constitution. I refer to the sixth section of the Report oaf the Commaittee on Corporations other than banking, which I will read. rHe read the section.] A very slight amendment of this s ection will cover the wh ole g roun d; and you will, by its adoption, establish a very iinportant principle, aandle a ve t he whole mat ter o f the details to leginsative control. Mr. CUTLER suggested that the blank in Mr. STAN, TON'S amendment B ae fil led with the word "five." Mr. BARNETT of Preble, suggested "three." Mr. MASON su gges ted " two." The question being on filling the blank with the word " five," Mr. GREEN of Ro ss said, that he desired to make a very fewremarks etion, but as the eot e usual hour for taking a recess had arrived, he would move that the Conve ntion do now take a r ecess. The motion being decided in the negative, Mr. GREEN proceeded. The proposition of the gentleman from Logan, [Mr. S TANTON,] i s t o limit the amount of debts which these municipal corpor ations shall hereafter incur, to two and a half per cent on the value of the taxable property within suchi corporations. He c on curred in a remark made this mornin g by one of the Senators from Hamilton county, [Mr. RaEF. pLIN.] If it is right and expedient to leave these municipal corporations to the exercise of this power of borrowing money at all, there should be no limitation or restriction upon it. The vice of the proposition of the gentleman from Logan is, that it makes the value of the taxable property in a county or city, the rule to govern what shall be sufficient to provide for the wants, or the convenience of the people. Now, it may be, indeed it is so, that in some of the counties of the State, where, owing to well known causes, although abounding in wealth, the land and personal property makes but little show on the tax list-all that is wanting to develope tlat wealth, is the exercise of this very powernow sought to be taken away. Let us take examples. I will select four counties in the southern part of the State, a portion of that re-. gion, of whose undeveloped mineral wealth the gentles man from Washington, (Mr. CUTLER,) has so forcibly spoken to-day. The report of the Auditor of State, made in 1849, shows the value of the taxable property in the followin~g named counties: washington..................... $3,919,246 00 Jackson........................ 1,520,397 00 Athens........................ 2,286,636 00 Lawrence...................... 1,910,834 0M Vinton (estimated)............... 1,500,000 00 Hocking.... 1,232,396 00 I have included Athens and Jackson in this state; menit, because although those counties have made one step in the system of internal improvementby railroads, it will doubtless become absolutely necessary, that they shall have power to go on to perf -ct them. Here then are six counties, with' an aggregate value of taxable property, amounting to $12,369,509. Now ~2~ per cent. upon that valuation will give, say in round numbers, $300,000. I leave it to gentlemen to say, how far they suppose this amount will go in the construction of the improvements, for want of which that section of the State is kept back, in the general prosperity of the State. Let us take now from the same re port, the valuation in six: counties lying in the middle and inorthern pork tion of the State. In this I do not incbuds Hamilton county, although I might properly do so —that county being in interest identified with the central portion of the State. Cuyahoga............$1,474.89.0 Butler................ 10,467,004 00 21 307 -OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATrURDAY, JANUARY 11. the works to be constructed; for the purpose of invitng attention to the facts. Montgomery................... 12,622,331 00 Franklin...................... 11,108,963 00 Licking....................... 8,931,72X 00 Muskingum................... 11,004,726 00 Here we have a difference in the relative valuation of property in these twelve counties of $42,239,921 00. Now, sir, no man acquainted with the facts can pretend to deny, that this vast difference is mainly owing to the advantages and facilities afforded to the wealthier counties, by the internal improvements furnished by the system now to be suppressed. Sir, the gentleman from Washiington has done no more than justice to this region of the State, in the description he has given of its dormant wealth. Give it the fostering care you have bestowed on more favored portions of the State, and in a few years it will as far exceed in value the counties I have put in contrast with it, as they now surpass it. Yes, sir, permit them by their own energies, with their own means, to develope their hidden treasures, and in ten years I would not exchange the fee simple of the mineral reglioin in southern Ohio, for that favored region added to a like valuable territory. But what do gentlemen propose to do? Sir, that portion of the State that has thriven and waxed fat at tlie public crib-that has been the peculiar and exclusive beneficiary of the scheme of State improvements — that thrust their arms up to the shoulder into the public purse, during the life of the "plunder law"is in a perfect plethora of prosperity, by the use of the money of the people of the State at large. Yet, sir, gentlemen on this floor, representing this favored region, are here insisting upon withholding from their poorer, because less favored, fellow citizens, the hum-i ble privilege of helping themselves with their own money. Why cannot thesegentlemen permit other people, to manage their own affairs. If the people in southern Ohio are willing to tax themselves for the purpose of getting out of the fastnesses of the hills that surround and encompass themn, what business have these gentlemen to interfere? What business is it of theirs? If they asked to bleed the public treasury, until the body politic shall be reduced to the brink of dissolution. (repudiation,) in order to satisfy their grasping and selfish avaric,e, there might be something to explain this strange intermneddling. But they have taken care to put an extinguisher upon all aid from the State. In this very report, you provide that no more money shall be borrowed for new works of internal improvementand that the State shall never assume the payment of any debt incurred by any county, city, or other municipal corporation, thereby forever closing the door, by the constitution, upon all and any legislation that may involve the State. And being full themselves, they will not concede to their brethren Ihe privilege of picking up the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table. Mr. President, I commenid to the attention of gentlemen, the statistics on this subject. It is said that there is great danger in permitting these municipal corporations to carry on this system. That a heavy debt has already been created by it, that mnay be considered as part of the State debt. That if a stop be not put to ii,, ruin must follow.:Now, if all this be true, it is a startling fact. It is true, that a large debt has been created by municipal corporations, under this species of legislation. But let us look, where and by whom this debt has been created. I have prepared the followving: — STATEMENT} showing the counties, towns, and ~cities authorized by law, on vote of the people and otherwise, to incur debts for works of internal im provements, the amount of debt authorized, and AM'T AUTH IZEDI OBJECTS. $100,000 00 Great Western R R 20,000 O0iPittsburg & Clevel'd R R 50,000 00 Greenville & Miami R R 100,000 O0 Clevel'd &a Columbus R R 100,000 00 Rail Roads 31,000 00;C Ca X & C RR 60,000 00 Findlay & Carey R R 30,000 O00Mad River &: L E R R 41,950 00 Turnpikes 100,000 00 Iront. R R & other purp's 100,000 00 Rail Roads &- other purg's 600,000 00C&LERR&C&ORHR 140,000 00oM R & L E R, stock in Urbana ]Bank 100,000 00 Bellefonttaine & la R R No vote taken 170,00( 00 Cent O R R & other purp's 20,000 OO0Port & Col Turnpike Co 289,000 OO!Rail Road & Turnp Cos .110,000 00 Bellefontainie & la X R 200,000 00 Ohio & Perinsylvania R R $2,361,950 00 [Canals $1,9.10,000 00 Funding city debt R PR &,-. 365,000 00'[Plan-k Roads (t& R R 150,0 0 00 R P-ail Road 2,000 00 Turnpikes 5,00 00,0 same 3,000 00,Plank Roads 70,0 0 OO Plank Roads & R R 40,000 OOiTurnpike Roads 5,000 00 Rail Road $2,570,000 -~I $2,361,950 00 2,570,000 00 $4,931,950 00 $3,370,597 00 It will be remembered that the valuation for taxation of the real property in the above list, was made prior to the completion of some of the important works named. A re-valuation will show a vast increase. The Report of the Auditor of State, made in 1849, shows the aggregate value of all the taxable property in the State to be $430,861,265:00. I have no doubt that the amount, on a re-valuation, will not fall much short of $600,000,000:00. Now sir, the debts thus incurred, foot up largelybut where and by whom have they been incurredwith two solitary exceptions, the works to which Ross and Jackson counties have subscribed, the works to aid in which these moneys have been borrowe-d,lead from or tend to Cincinnati-and all traverse the State north of the National Road! and farther, it is incurred by those whose means of payment are the results of the bountiful expenditure of the money of the State, in the construction of canals, turnpikes and railroads, by which their agriculture has been fostered, and their physical energies fully developed. These gentlemen now tremble for the credit of the State, because the people of the'"huckleberry knobs," want a chance to 308 COUNTIES. Allen....... Carroll...:.:. Darke..... Delavare.... Franklin - - - - - Greene...... Hal' cock.. - - -. Hardin...... Highland Jackson - Kn x....... Lickin....... Lo,,an....... b Marion...... inlianii....... Muskingum. - Pike......... Ross........ Shelby....... Starl........ CITIES. Cinci-nnati.... Cleveland..... Columbus... Circleville... Lancaster.... Maumee City. Newark..... Troy........ Xenia....... Counties..... Cities d,- towns Am'nt of debt actually in curred..... OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, JsANUAY 11. NAYs —-Messrs. Andrews, Archeheld, Barbee, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer,Ca'Iill, Case of Licki ing; Chamnbers, Chai.ey, Clark, Farr, Florence, For'es, Gillett, Grahamr, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan, Hfawkins, fienderson), Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humphireville, Johnson, Jores,Kennon, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Leech, Lid(ey, Mainon, Mitchell, McC, loud, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson. Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, IRoll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyaindot, Stanhery, Stebbins, Stilweil, Sticikney, Stidger, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Townsahend, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-74. ra ise a little m oney on their own credit, to dig down and through their hills to gel to m a rket. Th ey say the money market will be so gorged with this kind o securities that it will create great confusion and emI)arrasmeut. Possitly, i f teol o the people of sou thern Ohio should go into t he marke t with their bonds-it migho em,barrass these gentlemen in raising the balance oi the money they are authorized to, but have not yet borrowed, on their corporation bonds. I commend these facts to the liberal minded gentle men on the floor-I wi ll not stop to discuss the de Bnocracy of this argument-rior shall I consider the argiament that it is taking property of the citizen against his consent-They may be answered satisfactorilythe convention is impartial-as majorities always are wheor re minorities are struggling with them to prevent ijustice-I w ill not therefore trespass further on their time. I simply again ask attention to the statistics I have presented. Look at the value of the taxable property in Athe counties enumerated. What has produced the vast difer ebn ce between these countie s and others in the State? Not their superior natural advantages, but the expenditure of public money. Look at the valuation of the older counties, rich beyond calculation, in wealth embodied in the earth, as mv friend from Washitgton bas well-said —"not in the soil but under the soil,"anid ~hen let them say if they will persist in thus inflicting a pe,ralytic stroke upon the energies of that people,fror which they never can recover. Mr. GREEN of Ross, now moved that the Con. vention take a recess, which was disagreed to. The question then being on fillingg the blank in Mr STANTON's amendment, with the word "five," it was disag~reed to. The question then being on filling the blank with the word "three," Mr. CUTLER demanded the yeas and navys, and being ordered, resulted yeas 13, nays 81, as follows: YEAs —Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of HIockinrg, Collings, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewing. Hamilton, Stanton and Worthiington-13. ~ NAYS —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Case of Licking Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Grav, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Greesbeck, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hen derson, Hitchcock, of Geauga, colmes, Holt, Hootmrian, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kenton, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Lidey, Mainon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scottuof Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smitih of Warren, Smith of Wyaiidot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Swan, Swift, Tavlor, Thompson of Shelby, Towinshend, Warren, Way, Willarms, Wilson, Wooclbturv and President-81. So the Coyivention refusedf to fill the blank with the woMrdi "three." Tc qiuesti,r then beingm on filling the blank with tli,e word,'"tao andia half," art. STANTOI\T, ci leave, w,rithdrew his amendmlent.to the amaendment.i Tile question then beting on filling the blank with the words "stwo." Mr. CU3RRY demanded the yeas and nays and being ordered resulted yeats 19, nays 74, as follows: YEAS —Messrs. Burner of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Coilings, Curry, Cultler, Dorsey, Ewing, Hamnilten, Hunter, garsh, Nash,',Peck, Stanton, Taylor Williams and Worthingtoa —19, So the motion was not sustained. The question then recurred upon striking out the sixth section. r Mr. CUTLER was aware of the impatience of mrna jorities, commonly manifested whenever a miniority a were insisting upon rights whichl camre into conflict with present comfort. He hatid no doubt that now, as between a good dinner and the rights claimed by the minority uponii this question, the decision of the majori1 ty would turn in favor of the dinner. Bit he would i tell gentlemen that tihere were portions of tie Stalte he which fellats deep interest in tile questionl now before the Conventioin; and for that reason he would claimn a little more timne to talk and act upon it. The time - could be far better afforded for this purpose than for the discussion of any party question. He understood the objection to his motion to strike s out, to lie against the principle, that a majority ought not to have the power to impose a tax uponi the minori ty at all. He wished, therefore, to ask for a vote upoit that naked principle. Mr. CUTLER then moved to perfect the words f proposed to be stricken out (section 6) by adding to f the same the following: "No tax shall hereafter be levied by' the authorities of any county, city or township for the construc, tion or improvement of any bridge, road,street, or high- way." Mr. MITCHELL moved that the Convention adf journ,on which motion, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted yeas 47, nays 46, as follows: YEAS-Messrs.Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnetof I Montgomery, Blickensderfer, Case of Hocking, Case of L, icking, Curry, Florence, Greene of Defiance, Green of PRoss, u roesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Holmes, Hell, , Hootmari, Humphreville, Jones, Kennon, Lawrence, Leech, Mitchell, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Ortoi, , Otis, Peck, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, , Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Staubery, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Swan, Thoinpson of Stark, Williams, Wilson and, Pre sidenit-47. NAYs-Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cutler, Dorsey, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray. Gregg, Iflard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lidey, Manoii, Morehead, McCloud, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Scott of Au glaize, Snmith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stilwell, Struble Swift, Taylor, Townshend, Warren, Way, Woodbury and Worthington-46. So the motion prevailed and the ConTention adjourn ed till Monday morning, 9 o'clock. 309 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 13. 'cock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, IHumnphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Ken nois, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Anglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Swan, Swift, ThompHla,ot,LshLoonn Mchl,Mri,Nrs, of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshena, Way, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington, and President —4. So the amendment was disagreed to. Mr. DORSEY moved further to amend the sixth section, by adding at the end, the following words Provided, That if' any county, city, town or township, be already a stockholder in any such company or association for public improvement, whose work is already commenced, it shall be lawful for such county, town, city, or township to vote such amount as may be necessary for the completion of such work. Mr. CURRY move d to amend the amendment by inserting, after the word "commenced," the words, "or authorized to be commenced." Mr. DORSEY inquired of the gentleman from Union, (Mr. CURRY,) the object of his amendment. Mr. CURRY thought there might be works in prospect, which, although not actually commenced, were provided for, and which should be protected. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga, thought tha there was no need of the amendment; —that such cases were protected, inasmuch as the section itself did not cut off such cases. Mr. DORSEY did not wish, in cases where works had commenced, and where more funds were necessary, to cut off, by a constitutional provision, the peopie from voting such sum, by tax as should be needed to complete the work. It was for this purpose he had offered his amendment. Mr. THOMPSON of Shelby, presented and read for information, a substitute for the amendment of Mr. DORSEY, which he thought hetter calculated to secure the object. It is as follows: "Prorided, That the provisions of this section shall not be applicable to aIy counoty, city, town or townsi whi ch is already a stockholder in any company organized for the construction of any work of improvement. Mr. REEMELIN was opposed to the amendment of the gentleman from Union, (Mr. CuRaY,) as well as to the proposition of the gentleman from Shelby, (Mr. TnoMPsoN,) because it would authorize the city of Cincinnati to subscribe eight millions to the St. Louis rai lroad, and fifteen millions to the Charleston railroad. He did not want to confer such power. The question being on the amendment to the amendnent, the same was disagreed to. Mr. BARBEE moved to further amend the amendmeint, by striking out the word "county." Mr. BARBEE made a statement of certain local matters in Miami county, in relation to which himself and his colleague, (Mr. DoRSEY,) disagreed in sentil ment-in reference to certain taxes voted in that county, for the construction of certain public improvenlents. Mr. DORSEY rejoined very briefly. The question then being upon the amendment of Mr. BARBEr, the samne was disagreed to. aMr. DORSEY then moved to amend the amendment offered by him, and now under consideration, by striking out the words, "it shall be lawful," and inserting the wo rds, Cthe Legislature may authnri t te. Mr. RANNEY did not exactly understand the amendment of the gentleman from Miami, (Mir. DoasEY.) He thought it amounted to about this- tha where the minority has been robbed once, it shall b MONDAY Jan. 13, 1851,I 9 O'CLOCK A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Mr. CHANEY demanded a call of the Convention, which was ordered, and the following gentlemen were found absent: Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Ewart, Gillett, Green of Ross Harlan, Holt, Larsh, London, Mitchell, Morris, Norris, Peck, Perkinis, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Struble, Vance of Butier, Vance of Champaign and Warren. On motion of Mr. CHAMBERS, all proceedings under the call were dispensed wish.' Mr. HUNT presented a petition from W. H. Barker and ninety-nine other citizens of Lucas county, prayinig that a provision may be inserted in the constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law granting the right to sell intoxicating drinks. Mr. QU IGLE Y presented a petition from Mary D. Johns and one hundred and thirty-eight females and three males of Colunmbiana county, on the same subject. Mr. GREGG presented a petition from Jesse Van Metre and twenty-seven males, and Phoebe Wickersham and fourteen other females of Columbiana county, on the same subject. Said petitions were severally referred to the Select Committee on the subject "of retailing ardent spirits." Mr. SAWYER moved that the Convention take up the report of the Standing Committee on Public Debts and Public Works; which was agreed to. The question being on the amendment of Mr. Cu' LER, Mr. McCORMICK moved to amend the amendment by striking out the first word "no," and inserting "A," in lieu thereof. Trhe question being on the amendment to thea mendnient, Mr. CUTLER demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 28, nays 52, as follows: YaAS-Messrs. Barbee, Bates, Blair, Cahill, Ca se of Licking, Far,t, Gree ne o f Deafiance, Gregg, Hitchcock of Gea sGga re, Htolies, Horton, H unter, Jtoaoes, Kirkwood, Ma son, Mitchell, McCormick, Orton, Perkins, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyanidott, Stebbins Stickney, Stidger, Thompson of Shelby, Way, Woodbury, and President-28. NAYs-Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Currv, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Graha,n Gray, Green of Ross, tamilton, Hard, Hawkinils, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuvahoga. Humplireville, Huilt, Johnson, Kennon, Lar.sh,'Leadbetlter, Lidey, Morehead, L[eCloud, naslh, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Williams, Wilson, and Worthington,-52. So the amendmelnt wiss disagreed to. The question then being on the amendment: Mr. (SUTLER demanded the yeas and nays, which 'were ordered, and resulted yeas none, nays 84, as follows: lAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green o Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitch 310 EIGHTY-SIXTH DAY. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 13. fiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hawkins, Headerpson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, HB itchcock of Geauga, H iolmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, f Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidev, Maiion, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranliey, Retmelln, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Swan, Swift, , Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, t Townshend, W8ay, Wilson, Woodbury and Presi:i dent-82. So the motion to strike out, was disagreed to. t Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to amend the words pro posed to be stricken out, by adding at the end the fol. lowing: "Except for purely municipal purposes." The question being on the amendment, Mr. KIRKWOOD demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 12; nays 75, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Case of Hocking, Cutler, Ewing, Gregg, Hamilton, Kennon, Kirkwood, Manon, Mason, Thompson of Stark, and Worthingt-n. NAYS-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Co ilings, Curry, Dorsey, Farr. Florence, Forbes. Gra ham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Groes beck, Hard, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchlcock of Cuyaho ga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humnplireville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, King, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Orton, Otis Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Rainney, Reemelin Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Au glaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Staunton, Steb bins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Swan, Swift, Way, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury and President-75. So the amendment was disagreed to. The question then being on striking out all after the word tOwn, Mr. CLARK demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 14; nays 73, as fol lows: YE&s —Messrs Barnett of Preble, Brown of Athens, Curry, Cutler, Ewing, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Mason, Nash, Peck, Stanton, Williams and Worthington-14. NaYs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Callill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collii,s, Dorsey, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gray, Greene of De fiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hawkins Henider son, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Huji ter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lar will, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, Me Cloud, McCormick, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemnelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyan dot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Way, Wilsone Woodbury and Preside n t —73. So the motion to strike out all after the word,'town,"' was disagrejed to. Mr. GRE:GG moved to amtend by striking out the l words "eity, town," which was disagreed to. !Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuvahoga, moved to strike out. < the word Legislatulre, anud insert the wayrds ";Genleral i Asserably," which was agreed to. proper to do it again. He thought this to be justice upon the Homceopathic principle-curing the bite w ith th e hair of the same dog. He did not believe in any sch practice, and was opposed to this species of taxa tion in all cases. The question then being on the amendment to the a m nd endment, the same was lost. The amendment was then disagreed to. The question then recurring upon striking out the sixth section, Mr. WORTHINGTON moved to amend the same, by striking out all after the word "town," where it occurs in the firs; ine, and inserting the following: "Townships o or other municipal corporations in this State, to contract debts not exceeding - per cent o n t he v alu e of their property, asasssessed for taxation. Mvr WORTHI:NGTON briefly explained his views, and the reasons for offering his amendment. Th e q uestio n being on the a doption of the amend -ment, Mr. HITCHCOCK demanded a division of the ques tion. n,r. REEMELIN spoke a gainst any a dmixtu re of the interests of the publ ic with tho se of corpora tions. Mr. WORTHINGTON spke of the necessity of incorporated companie s, especially when the State shall be prohibited f ro m engaging in public w ork s of h er ,own. He did not look upon the danger arising from these agencies as so very imminent. He desired to Prevent improvidence on the part of municipal cor poratiions, but at the same time did not wish them to be entirely prohibited from employing the agency of chartered companies to carry forward works necessary er highly beneficial. Mr. KIRKWOOD supposed the sixth section as re ported, was intended to prevent municipal corporations from combining thier means with those of individuals, I /or the purpose of effecting a public object. He thought, there were objects for the furtherance of which, such combinations might properly take place, as to light a city with gas, or to furnish it with pure and wholesome watec. He did not wish to prevent such junctions of , interest. Mr. HAWKINS spoke against the whole system of voting taxes or stock, to carry on works of a public character. He thought it an invasion of individual rights, and calculated to place the property of the indus trious and enterprising, under the control of the indoe Rent anid the profligate. He thought the question had Beeu settled here. Mr. GREGG thought the amendment of the gentle. man from Ross, [Mr. WORTHINGTON,] would conflict with the sixth section of the report of the committee on corporations. He was opposed to the whole sys tem of voting taxes for carrying on public works. Mr. BARNETT of Preble, moved to fill the blank with the word "three," which was disagreed to. The question then being on striking out after the word "town," in the sixth section. Mr. LARSH moved to amend the words proposed to be stricken out, by striking out all after the word "whatever," where it occurs in the third line. Mr. CLARK demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted —yeas 11l; ayes 82, as fol ~ows: YEIs —M\esss. Brown of Athens, Curry, Cutler, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Larsh, Mason, Stan don, Williams and Worthington-I1. NAYs —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barber, Barnett of Prebleo Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, BrownI of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking,i Chambers, Chaney, Clark, C~oilings, Dorsey, Ewving,5 Fart, Florence, Forbes, Graham, Gray, Greene of De- i i i I 311 1 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MMomDAY, JANUARY 13. ney, Reemelin, Smith of Wyaidot, Stickney, Swan To~wnshen d an d Worthi-n gton —2., NAYs —Messrs. An drews, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickeisderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Cnrry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Fl orence, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross., Gregg, Hamilton, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cnear lga, Holnes, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Kennon. Larsh, Larwill, Leech, L-e.adbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mlitchell, Morehead, McCloud, Nash,, Orton. Otis. Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quiglev, Rid — dle, Roll, Sa-wyer, Scott of Harrisoni, Scott o>f.Au Slize, Sith of High~land, Stanlbery, Stantoni, Stel-. bins., Stilwell, Stidge-r, Swift, Thomnpson of Shelby,. nTJhomnpson of Stark, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and TPre,i-dent —66. So the amoiendmento was disa,reed to. Mr. LEADBETTER Cmoved to amend the the t mao)-new section by striking out the following, words: "or to re~deeaia the pre sen t outstanding indebtedness of the State." Mr. LEADBE-TTEPR said that the existence, of this.~ clause in t he constitution -wrid have a tendenac y toh perpetuate t e e mdebt ofti e State f or e fifty or an hundreds years to come. Instead of pthe w c w ie bonds of tra l a n, ;Stat.e at maturity, the Legislatuire wouldl go on extending, the time, and creating nevw bonds aTn,d a ne-w' debt.. HetoofuRot the people de man ded t hat the debt should be paid as o n amns possible. Mv'r. HITCHCOCK of Cuiyahioga th-ou~ght that it, ,would be unsafe to provide tthat the debt sliall b,e paid'~ as it falls due. The result, -will be that the debt -will. be su,-bstanitiall-y paid within eight years of the adop — tio-n of this constitution. It- -will be niecessary by tl)e, year 1860, to meet and pav about ten and a ],,alf mnil — lions. This sum- must be raised by taxation, and if the people are willing,, he h. —d no objectiona, but Be ,thiought we should be convinced th-at the people are, ,willing, before we fix an. inflexible rule that may be-, very severe in its operationa. The qu,estion beini, on striking ouit' iMJr. LEADB-ETTER. dem,a-nded the yeas,and nays. which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 20, na3,ys 68:,0 follows: YEAs —NIC,essrs. Fa-rt, G~rayi, Green. of Def-iancee, Henlderson, Ho'-t, Hootmian, Humrphreyille, Leech, Leadbetter, Mitchell, Perkins,, Rainney, Sawyer. Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stickney, Stidfrer, Struble, Thompson of Sta'rk and Wood.bu'ry-'v-'-O NaYs —Messrs. And~lrews, Archbold, Barbee, Bar'no~. of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Bliekens,,derfer, Brown, of Athens, Brown, of Carroll, Cahill, Case, of Hlocking,, Case of Liekinr, Chamber,s, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Curry, Dors'ey. Ewart, Ew~ing, Flo~ren~ce., Forbes, Grahiam, Groe-sbeek, Hamiltoni, Hlard, HAarlan, Hawkinsg, Hitchcock, of Cuvyahoga, Hitchicock, of Geauga, Holmies, Horton, Hu;ter, Johinsoni, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larslh, Larwill, lkiley, Manon-,, Mjasoni, Morehead, Mc~loud, McCormic~k, Nashi, Ortoni, Otis,, Patterson, Quigley, R~iddle, Roll, Scott, of Harrson, Sm~ith, of Hlighland,., Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Townshend, Way Wfison, Wor~ T'he, qu,estioni then being on striking out the -whole sectliot on: Mr. CU, TLER demanded the aves and noes, Swhich wereer e ofed, and resulted, yeaSt 12, nays 78, as Sbl lOW,S: YaEAs-I-Messrs. Barneot ootm H ebl t i rowo of Shelb, Coerrv, Cutler, DorJs-ewiy, Ewic t b r, Green of Ross, Hai dtltoo, 04t asor. i P eck, Willim and Wortht egton- 2e l0,A~'s —-g~esrs. SAdreawsAro ld, BArbwel, Srtc Sates, J?,eyn, ~tBlair, BSwiiwi ho sderfor, Cahill, Case of iockCio,iCase of Lickik ong, Whay rs, Cianet, Clark, Col l C.):(- Coc, Fart', Fo,rbes'. Gi-brrh-. Gr, Green.e of g a:,:ce, Gregg, Crees,bec, Hard, anaran, Hawkins, niders, b ii nit'chcock of C syamoea, tHitchlcock of GHeawrdsa, Holreslat, Hootunty, Horton, Hu4phusreville.- Huint, ]r:unter, Johin.,;on, Jone-s, K,eninon. Ki;rk woode, Lahsh, larlil, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey,e liwaf m-, Y,.tcheil, MNorehiead, Ale[Cloiid, il[eCorim-ick, Ortoy), Otis, Pat4~:tersoni, Perki,ns, Quigley, R annoy, Reemein, Rddle,Roll, Sawv7yer, Scott, of Harrison,i Scott Augaize, Semounith of Higtla ee and, Spaidmith of Wyandot, Stiinbery Stanto n, Stebbiens0, Stileell, Stimksete Stheider, Swa oi, S rqift, Thoitsopsl ons of Shelby., limitfi apsoun of Stark, Town,biinenhiid, Wano, Woilsojtb, Wvoodb~urcy anid President —78. So the uici ootion to strik e shout bectvticedn 6, wthas disagreed to,. Mor. GB)OESBECK asoved to abeenid tha sTe sae bet'/,v addmne at th e end of othe M LaD Te,d the folloy nd worms:m"i or is a ll any county, apcy, to-wpi, towntshvicifl or mniuicipal corporation, fibr any purpose, contract debts, phpcshale, in the a,ggreAgate, exceed'three per cert., ot turhe amount of its taxabl e propertot. if, GROE SBEC K they,tougdh nt bh amdas the Convention had determined to limit the amount of debt of the str0te, sa eci th e He pri nder bie that it should limruit the amount of debts to be icontracted by the lessr mnicpalcorporations. MYir. GREEN of Poss, moved to amienid the amiendtwo o. by ilboostri. o ut all afteor the word "debts." Mir. GhOESi auCK, was iio t to be scaared away from isu amrenidmi-,ient by the gentle-hm Cane, fCnro Ross. I fr.Io HITCCOCK of Cuveosjsoaei, inquired if the that thedent waotiiparts oifedec to apply to present, as'well a.-, prospetive de b ts. He ahoas dispo ed to think the ra~tlo( of three p~r cent. too sm-all. ie desired to know if oven ton eV,, nceati, they w oul d not be craK irped by tosar. doROESBECK thought not. He said e,inder thai rule, the oit-; of Ci ncinnat i might incur a debt of two m-.illoions of dollars. IVTr. G REEiNt of Ross said th e rule might bwnory t wel l enloughr~ here, aind two millions Dig~ht be as large a semn as tlvhis citty o uenht to go in debt, but then geniltleTmea qest fron, —, H being on a ritt amend- tliiiigton, rndust remermidber tmat o here are other parts of the state, whoe th e same ruol moMhtr. sose -by atdedwith great itendcionmvendiec. it his CHE ofw Bsown for d nstanced th ay atio, they w ould bw abhchwe odeo accumulate a dnd t of ors le y about thirti thousand dollwa-trst but lesthan ts uo the geor lemaof thought tiht the as srdvantages of ire C hiles ot the a,-id of tue stater ligrotin their cc, itchch kas, were too valuable -ot be Johnsn Jones,tirkood Mtheni Mcoric,Rng miln provided for wol,stra ilb he ioamond ol 312 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 13. 313 of taxable property in the state, pay off the entire "SEc. 1. The General Assembly shall provide for thepay. debt in less than twenty years. ment of the principal and accruing interest of the public debts of the state. Mr. HAWKINS was in favor of fixing a time for the SEc. 2. The public debt shall not be increased, and until payment of the State debt, much shorter than had been the present debt is paid, no other shall be created except for agreed to by the Convention. Pending Mr. HAWKINS' the purpose of repelling invasion, suppressing insurrection remarks: or to defend the state in war, and in no instance shall the Onmotion of Mr. S th Conventioncredit of the state be loaned to a corporation." Oni motion of Mr. STANBERY, the Convention took a recess. Mr. SAWYER demanded a division. The question then being on striking out, Mr. MITCHELL concurred in the sentiments of AFTEP,NOON SC,ION. the amendment; but lest it should fail, he desired to amend the original Report. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. He would therefore move to amend the words pro The question being on agreeing to thle amendmeist posed to be stricken out in the first section, by striking of Mr. ANNEY, outin lines three and four, the words "seven hundred Mr. MAN ON demanded the yeas and nays, andbe- fifty,''and and inserting the words "five hundred," ing ordered, resulted-yeas 37, nays 46, as follows: in lieu thereof. YeaMessrs. Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Mr. MANON demanded a division. Athenrs, Cahill, Cookl, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Glreene of The question then being on striking out the words Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hlawkins, Henderson, Holt "seven hundred and fifty," Hootman, Hutmphreville, Hunter, Kennon, Kirkwood, It was disagreed to. Larsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, The question then being on agreeiing to Mr. MaIcCoQuigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Scott of Auglaize, Smith MIc-'s amendment, of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Townshend, Way, Mr. HOLT moved to further amend the Report, by Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington, and President-37. adding at the end of Section 2, the following: NAYS-Messrs. Audrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont- "Nor shall the State contract any debt for the purgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of pose of redeeming its outstandingieidebtedness, which Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Clark, Collings, shall not be redeemable at such period as may be preCutler, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green scribed by law, not exceeding five years." of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuyahboga, Which was disagreed to. Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Horton, Hunt, John- Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to further amend the Reson, Jones, Marnon, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Mc- port by adding at the enid lf Section 2, the following: Cormick, Patterson, Peck, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott "And all debts contracted, to redeem the present of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, outstanding indebtedness of the State, shall be so Stanbery, Stilwell, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of contracted as to be payable by the sinking fund, hereShelby, and Thompson of Stark-46. 1inafter provided for, as the same shall accumulate." So the amendment was disagreed to. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE said: We are here provwd Mr. REEMELIN moved to amend the Report by ing for a sinking fund, the object being to pay off the adding at the end of Section 1, these words: State debt as fast as the means provided by the fund 'But no such debt shall be created, except in pursuance of will do it. And, if I have made the calculation cora law, which law shall impose and provide for the collec- rectly-ealling the debt sixteen millions-it will be tionaof a direct anual tax, sufficient to pay the interest on paid off in about forty years and callig it fifteen n~~~~~~~~~~~,~adoffi abu direty annals taxd, ca l lin it fifteen such debt, as it falls due, and also to pay and discharge the. principal of such debt within five years from the time o illions, in about the )eriod of tlhrty-lne years. But contracting thereof.," there are some portions of the debt falling due in large Upon this question( Mr. REEMELIN demiandedthe amounts, and at earlier periods than can be met by this yeas and nays, and the same being ordered, resulted- Finking fund; and it might so happen, that, in order to yeas 40 nays 49 as bfollows: pay off as fast as the debt falls due,liew stocks might be 'eas 40e.nrs 49hbld Basr fohllows:cy created, extending the time of their payment perhaps YEAs-MesFrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chaney,i for fifty years-carrying such portion of the debt clear Clark, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbe Greene of Defiae beyond the time when the sinking fund would pay the Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Holt, Hootman, ideybt. I adimit that such a provision would be substan Himphrevihlle, irkwood, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, tially a violatioin of the Constitution. But then, iii such Lidey, Mtcell, Pgatterson, Quigley, Ranney, ReReeme- an event, what should be done? Here is a constantly Stickney, Sidger, Struble, Sw an, Thompson of t, Stebbinsl, accumulating sinking fund, provided for in the Coasti Stbcy, Town,shenr, StrWayub, Wlsowan, hWoodbury, and n of Shel- tition,anrid which must continue to accumulate so much y Town,,n Way, Wilson,Wocdbury, and Press- an nually, until the debt shall be entirely paid off. And it might so happen that here would be an enormous NAYS,Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, fund collected and unappropriated in the treasury; Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfe(r, which,as we have seen, iii the case of the UnitedStates Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hock- urplus revenue, is a great curse to any people and ilg, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Florence, Gil- such an accumulation in our treasury would be the oe lett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, casion for the introduction of so many and such enor Hawkinis, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Horton, mous frauds in the disposition of our State affairs,as it Hunt, IHuniter,'Johnson, Jones, Larsh, Manon, Mason, would be melancholy to contemplate. Therefore I wish Morehead, Morais, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Peck, a provision to be incorporated that shall expressly pro Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of hibitanyextension ofthetimeofthefirstpaymentofihe Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stil- debt beyond the time when the sinking fud whichwe well, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, and Worthington have provided, would meet all the outstanding bonds of 149. the State; and, if I have correctly gathered the import So the amendment was disagreed to. of the amendment of the gentleman from Richland, Mr. McCORMICK moved to further amend the Re- that must be its object. Do I understand that to be port by striking out all but the thirteenth and four- the object of the genitleenan from Richland? teenth sections, and inserting its lieu thereof the flo- Mr. KIRKWOOD nodded his assetit. lowing: Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I hope, then, it will not 01410 CONVENTION DEBATES-AIONDAY, JANUARY 13. 313 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 13. be voted against on account of any general hostility to all amendments to this report. The yeas and nays being now taken upon the ques tion of the adoption of Mr. KIRKWOOD'S amendment, the result was —yeas 53, nays 35-as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Bennett, Blair, Blickens derfer,; Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chaney, Clark Ew ing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groes beck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuya hoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lar will, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidev, Mitchell, Patterson, Quigley, Raniney, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stickney, Stidger,Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshendr, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, T o Worthington ad President.-53. NAYs-Andrews, Barbee, Barnet, o f Mon tgomery, :Barnett of Preble, Bates, Brown of Athens, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Colings, C urry, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Horton, Hunter, Manon, M orehead, Morris, McCloud, McCor mi ck, Nas h, Otis, Pe ck, Ri ddle, Scott o f Harrison, Smi th of Hi ghland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Sta nton, Stilwell.-35. So the amendment was agreed to. Mr. CAHILL moved the previous question. The question then being "shall the main question be now put." Mr. GREEN o f Ross, d emanded the yeas and nays, wh ich bein g ordered, resulted yeas 51, nays 38 as fol lows: YIEAS.-Messrs. Andrews, Barbeen, Bennett, Bl air, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Chaney, Cla rk, Co ok, Ewing, F arr, For bes, Gillett, Greene s of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman, Hunter,' Kirkwood, Larwill, Lidey, Manon, Mason, Morehead, M orris, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Tayl or, Thompson of Sh elby, Town Shend, W ay. Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington, an d President.-51. NAYs.-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnet t of Preoble, Bates, Brown of Ath ens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Ho cking, Chamb ers, Collings, Curry, Florence, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock, of Geauga, Holt, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson,Lar ah, Leeoh, Leadbetter, Mitchell, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Ranney, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stilwell, Thompson of Stark.38. So the call for the previous question was sustained. The question then being on striking out all except the th,irteenth and fourteenth sections of the report, Mr. Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, demanded the yeas and nays, and being ordered, resulted, yeas 17, nays 76, as follows: Yeas.-Messrs Barnett of Preble, Brown of Athens, Case of Hocking, Collings, Curry, Graham, Green of Ross, Hunt, Mason, Mitchell, McCormick, Stanbery, Stanton, Stidger, Taylor, Williams and Worthington. 17. NAY~-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barrier of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chamb~ers, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, G;roesbeck, lIamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkinls, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, H~itchcock of G;eauga+, Holmes, Holt, Hootman. H-orton, Humphrevilte, Hunter, Johnson, Jones,;Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Pat tersoni,Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle,Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Towns hend, Way, Wilson, woodbury, and President-76. So the motion to strike out was disagreed to. The question then being on ordering the report to be engrossed, Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga demanded the yeas and nays, and ibeing ordered, resulted yeas 76, nays 16, as follows: YE As —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hen derson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Lidey, Manon, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Townshend, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-76. NAYs-Messrs. Brown of Athens, Cury, Green of Ross, Horton, Leech, Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, McCormick, Nash, Scott of Harrison, Stanbery, Stan ton-, Stilwell, Tho m pson of S tark and W orth ington -16. So the report was ordere d to be engrossed, and On motion, was ordered to be read a th ird time onr Wednesday next. The CHAIR announced Messrs. Ranhey, Swan, Mas on, Riddle and Andrews, as the comnanmittee o n "Revision, Enrollment and Arra n gement." Mr. McCORMICK asked and obtained leave of ab sence for Mr. NORRIS, for the space of one week. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention took up the report of the Committee on Jurisprudelne. The question being on agreeing to the first amend ment, to wit: In line two, strike out the word "ap poi"t," and insert in lieu thereof these words: " pro vide for the appointment of," it was agreed to. Mr. HOLT moved to further amend the report by striking out these words: " The General Assembly, at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution, shall provide for the appointment of," and inserting, in lieu thereof, the following: "At the first session of the General Assembly after the adoption of this Con stitution, the Governor shall nominate, and by and with the consent of the Senate, appoint." Mr, TAYLOR expressed his regret at hearing this proposition announced; for, if there was to be any innovation upon the manner of the appointment of these commissioners, he hoped it would be determinied, that they should be elected by the people. H(e confessed, that, after the discussion of the subject, in the committee of the whole, he was not prepared to expect this proposition to come fronm the chairman of the standing committee, [Mr HOLT.] There was apropriety in the appointment of these commissioners by the Legislature, because they were to make their report to the L~egislature, and it was to be subject to their approval, amendment, or rejecti3tr He trusted that a reform so essential to the interests and prosperity of the people, was not to be placed beyond the control of the people, by the appointment olf - I' 314 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 13. these commissioners by the Governor and the Senate. Of all things, it was most desirable, that these commnissioners should be removed from professional influence. Whilst the convention were at Columbus, there seemed to be a general acquiescence in the appointment of these conmmissioners by the Legislature. But, if that provision were now stricken out, he presumed the change of the manner of their appointment, would be in another direction; and that, instead of giving it to a single individual, gentlemen would recognize a sufficient amount of importance in their trust, to place them, with reference to their?.ppnintmnent, at least upon an equal footing with the Directors of the Penitentiary. But he trusted that there would be no change at all. Mr. HOLT replied, that the gentleman from Erie, [Mr TAYLOR,] should not be apprehensive of too much professional influence, in this matter; for this was precisely where it was desirable, that the influence of the profession should be brought. Undoubtedly the memre. bers of this commission should be selected from amongst the most distinguished lawers in the State, if the reform was to be a good one, and worthy of the name. The question was now taken upon the adoption of Mr. Holt's amendment, and upon a division of the Ilouse, it was rejecte —affirmative 33; negative 49. Mr. RANNEY now proposed further to amend the report, by striking out, in lines four, ann five, these words; "and so far as practicable and expedient.'' Mr. R. said, the object of the amendment, it should prevail, was, to make it obligatory upon these commissioners to provide for the abolition of the different forms of action in the practice of the law now in use, and to provide that justice may be administered, without any discretion as to the mode of procedure between an action at law and in equity. As the report now stood, it would be left discretionary with them, whether to provide for the abolition of these forms or not. If any gentleman would look at the history of lawreform in the State of New York, it would be perfectly satisfactory to him, that unless this duty was made obligatory upon the commissioners, nothing could be done, at least, for a considerable length of time. For his part, he was prepared to say, that it was entirely practicable and expedient to abolish the different forms of action. He saw no necessity for retainiug them. And he was prepared to say, that it was eintirely practicable, and expedient, to dispense with all the differences between the manner of dispensing justice In courts at law, and equity. He wished the convention to decide for themselves, whether this reform was "practicable and expedient," leaving to the commissioners nothing to do but to go about the work. The great reform demanded for the good of all, he believed would in this way be accomplished without evasion or delay. To effect this end, he had made the motion. Mr. NASH. This amendment proposes, in fact, to turn this body into a grand committee upon law-reform, instead of a Constitutional Convention. We are called upon by th is amendment, to incorporate into the Constitution an iron rule, dictating to these com - missioners their whole duty —requiring them to do partlcular acts. It would be better to dispense with the commi'sioners altogether, and do the work ourselves -declare the whole thing to be done at once, and not spend ten years about it, as they have done in New York, in making their law-reform, and they do not em to be yet prepared for it. The gentleman says he is prepared to abolish the forms of practice at common law. You may change the names, but still the declaration and the cause of action will remain unchanged. It would not alter the law one iota. Turn every action into an action on the cas e, a n d you would still have to state vour caus e of a ction just as yo u do now. It seems to me, that t his is rather a smpall bus iness to engage the deliberationsof a constitutional convention. There is more important matter lyin g back. tha n appears upon the surface here This amendment involves, I hard ly know what. Here you have in the bill of rights a guarantee of the ri ght o f trial by jury. But now, when you undertake to abolish all distinetionis between law and chancery,is it to result in a rule to try everything by a jury, as in actions at law, or is it to take away the jury trial altogether? I confess that I am utterly unable to perceive the utility ofconVertingaboth of these systems of practice into one. I cannot appreciate the result. My impression is, that the civil law proceedings on the contract, would generally be found cheaper,. and more expeditious and satisfactory, than the common law method, and if 1 were forming a new system, I am not certain but that I should adopt the civil practice, for there are arguments in favor of it, which are worthy of all consideration. But what I object to is, that we, here, in one sweeping clause, should undertake to make a union, the result of which we cannot comprehend until we shall heave run it out into practice. Mr. TAYLOR. The gentleman speaks of the duty of these Commissioners to inquire into the expediency of what is proposed in this article. But is it not to be supposed that the hundred and eight men called up here to represent the people of Ohio in Convention to alter and amend their Constitution, can decide this question themselves? I believe, sir, that a majority of this body will faithfully represent the wishes of the people of Ohio, when they declare that it is expedient and practicable to carry this reform into effect. If any such fact can be demonstrated, by the action of the people of our own State, as well as of other States, and the people of England, where the common law originated, it seems to me that it has been demonstrated -that the proposition embraced in this article is not only feasible, but called for by many considerations. We do not want any longer to substitute forms for meaning in our judicial proceedings; but we would require that the rule of common sense should be regarded; that there should be but one mode (not form,) of proceeding; and that is nothing more than that the parties, when brought before a tribunal of justice, shall state their case, and proceed according to the rules of logic and right reason, to trial and judgment. We would also dispense with the distinctions in the mere forms and technicalities which at present exist between the practice in courts of law and courts of equity. As long as this State has had a political existence, we have substantially given up those distinctions, by allowing the same court to become a kind of hybrid affair, and to sit eithe upon law cases, or upon cases in equity. There are two sides to the same court, and this seems to me to be giving up the whole question. There were, in the State of New York, to which the gentleman has referred, much stronger considerations for retaining these distinctions than there can be here, because there they had their law courts and their equity courts. Here We have nothing off the kind; but we are confused inl our couits of justice, by the comnmingling of legal and chancery jurisprudence. What is law? and what is equity? Justice is the word which ought to be substituted for both, and all these distinctions,9 whether in jurisdiction or in praatiCe. Can we not have courts of justice, whEich shal} administer upon the constitutionl and laws of the State., as they relate to the rights of individuals, by a simple I 315 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 13. and uniform mode of proceeding? Is not this body capable of deciding this question? Does not the publie voice call for this? do not the movements of our public men most clearly point in that direction? We take the responsibility in other things, and I want to know if we cannot decide for ourselves, that these distinctions are absolutely unnecessary, useless and injurious? In the course of the discussion of this subject ill Comnmittee of the Whole, last summer, we heard much of the excellence of the common law of England, which had so lone defied tte stormis of revolutionsf. But within the brief period of the recess of this converition, the foundations of that system have been shaken. The reforms in the state of New York, have attracted the attention of tihe first minds of the Bar of England: and now the probability is, that, if we dis miss this subject of law reform for the next ten years, even the mother country will get the start of us. Lord Brougham and Sir Sammel Romilly, have already shaken the foundation of that pile of legal fictions; and it may be, that the British Parliament and the legal minds of England, will approach and consummate this reform sooner than ourselves. It is too late now, for gentlemen to point to the source of the common law, and claim that we ought to defer to that system on account of its venerable origin, since it is now rocking upon its foundations and tottering to its fall. We ask, then, that these Commissioners shall have a clear, plain course of dutybefore them; so that, when appointed, they shall proceed directly, with all their resources, to arrange and propose the reform in question. The reform iii New York would have been consummated long ago, but for the obstructions and oppositions of its enemies. I hope, then, that the friends of law reform here, will give to these Commissioners a reasonable opportunity of proceeding to their work,e without so mutch chance for thle interposition of these impediments, by strikling out the words proposed by the amendment of the gentleman from Trumbull. Mr. COLLINGS. I would like to know whether the New York Commissioners were not all friends of reform? Mr. TAYLOR. I know there was a dissent from their action, by one of their number. Mr. MITCHELL had never before heard of the blows inflicted upon the courts of chancery by Lord Brouzgham and Sir Samuel Romilly; nor oftheir advocacacy of the abolition of the distinctions in course of practice between Courts of Law and Chancery. He would ask the gentleman from Trumbull, (because he was a lawyer,) why it was, that, amongst the text books of the profession, Coke was not so useful to the profession as Blackstone? Was it not because Blackstone divided the subject of his lectures and arranged them under convenient heads? This was done for the convenience and advantage of students of the profession, both young and old. Forthesame reason It was that these different forms of action arose in practice. They were originated to enable us more fully to adopt forms for pleading and practice, the real use of which is to assist the less experienced nimemrubers of the profession. For by the aid of forms, they could practice with mcre success, and with more certainty, and safety to their clients. The older members of the bar, who were well versed in practice, could dispense with the aid of all forms. But, it was not so with beginners, and those who are anxious to represent their ownw case incourt. They need forms. This latter atsainment seemed at times to be the beau ideal with the gentleman from Trumbull and the gentleman from 5Iontgomery. He was astonished at the amount Of i excitement which had been raised here upon this quesn t s isstion. It was a sposition to run after solmethi ng, without knowing wh a t. Me n had got asort of airy id,ea into their he ads, that the result would be marvelously advant ageous, if they could o nly get rid of this learning about the law. But he could tell them that so long as the rights ef men, and our present state of civilization should remain conmplicated as they are now and ever must, so long every effortof this sort w o uld prove nothing more than a splehidid abortiohn. He would only add, in proof of what he had affirmed, that itwas now beg, nri*ig ti, bar tanifest that the attempt at law reform in New York wouldi prove a failure; and such had been his expectation of it fromn the beginning. He believed that his venerable friend from Clinton, (Mr. MORRIS,) had introduced the only practicable scheme of law reform here-which was the abolition of all legal fictions. This was the reform toward which Sir Samuel Romilly Lad directed the labors of his life, without accomplishing it. But still hls la. bors were well spent. This reform had been shown to be practicable. Itwvas a reform upon w hich a man could make a speech and render a reason. But with reference to the abolition of law and equity distinctions, as the gentleman from Gallia had said, vou must either abolish the employment of written testimony, and bring every question before a jury, or you must abolish jury trials, and bring everything before the chancellor. Great saving is now made in the costs of litigation by the use of written testimony in chancery. This mode is also admirably calculated to secure careful and deliberate investigation on the part of both counsel and court. Mr. R.ANNEY, (in his seat.) Retain juries in all cases where facts are disputed. Mr. MVTITCHELL. But that can non be had whenever it is necessary, in a court of equity. Mr. COLLINGS was apprehensive that an undue degree of importance was attached to this report upon both sides. He had no idea, if the report mwere reiected in toto, that the affairs of the world would be brought to a stand still, or turned upside -down in consequence. There had been a gradual reform going on in the courts, in the rules of proceeding upon the administration of justice. I'he only object which he could have in view in this report, would be to attract the attention of the Legislature more especially to tais subject. He was not without confidence, that something might be done with reference to law reform. But he recollected, at least one distinct instance in his life,, when he had been mistaken; aiid it might be the case in this instance. He was not in favor of hutrying the world on so fast, as some gentlemen seemed to imagine to be expedient. He supposed that if the different forms of action were reduced to an uniform rule, that still it should not be found a very easy matter to draw up a declaration without a form. Manly a good lawyer had failed in forming a proper declaration, and it was not unfrequ.ently the case that they found themselves demurred out of court. Upon one hand, we had, as matter of information, that the State of Nqew York,hatd to a great extent, failed in their attempts at law reformn.:But his information from New York was different from that. Their lawyers wvere divded ulpon this question, but the more distingulished amonog them, being in favor of reform, it wras confidently expected that, ill a few years, they would entirely succeed. But if they shoulld not subceed in New York, and if the proposmon~l here should not suceceed, still it coulld do no great harm. But to make it imperative, might be embarrassing. Ise con 316 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-ToUEsDAY, JANUARY 14. sidered it the better plan to leave it to the Legisla- now over three and one half months and thus far, of ture to carry out the various objects of this reform, some fifteen or twenty reports of Standing Committees according to the suggestions of experience. but two have been engrossed. It is apparent to me, His latest information from England, with refer- Mr. President, that the great difficulty in the way of ence to the agitation of this subject there, was, that making progress in this body is the numerous long they had fallen back upon their special and technical speeches, made here and that unless some measure leadinrgs, believing that thereby parties would be can be adopted to shorten them, it is difficult to deterbrought to a more simple and certain issue. mine when the labors of this body will close. Some It had been asserted as the voice and judgment of gentlemen appear to think, that a portion of this body the people of Ohio, that this reform should be carried are not prepared to act without being instructed or out. qilis might be so, or not, so far as he was in- lectured here from day to day with numerous long foroed. He had no, ertain iniformation of the opinion speeches. In my opinion they are greatly mistaken. of the people whom ihe in part represented, upon this I believe that portiona of this body which they seem subject: and he doubted very much whether they had to suppose need such instruction are fully qualified f,rmed or expressed any opinion at all with regard and prepared to vote without it-that their minds are to it. already made up and that nriot a vote is changed by He concluded by giving it as his deliberate opinion, such efforts. I really hope the resolution will pass ifcthat we m ay have ahe dasofu tin in taroo that, if it would not be positively injurious, it would may have fe days of vtin i the roo ""u'os ongspeeesthat it m ay, baetre a few days afvtigithromf at least, be hazardous and unsafe, to adopt measures long speechesthat it may be trid a few days a exceedingly striingent upon this subject. least, and if it does not work well we will rescind it A ~nd then, upon thomotion of Mr. HOLMES and go back again to long speeches. The Convention adjourned. Mr. MANON hoped the resolution would not pass. He had seen enough of this kind of attempts to ex EIGHTY-SEVENTH DAY. pedite business. He moved therefore that the Con vention resolve itself into a committee of the whole, TUESDAY, January 14th, 1851, on the report of the Comniittee oil the Preamble and Nine o'clock, A. M. Bill of Rights. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Mr. CLARK demanded the yeas and nays, which Mr. NASH presented a petition from Hliram G. were ordered, and resulted, yeas 32, nays 60, as folDaniels and sevelity.four other citizens of Vinton lOws county, prayinig that the new constitution maypro- YEas-Messrs. Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of hibit the passage of any law authorizing the traffic Athens, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chanev, Collings, ill intoxicating liquors or in any way legalizing it. Dorsey, Ewart, Forbes, Green of Ross, Harlan, Hilch )'r. BROWN of Carroll, presented a petition fromi cock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geatuga, Holt, Horton, Israel Archbold, Thomnas H. Cummings anid sixty-two Hunt, Johnson, Kennon, Kirklwood, Larsli, Leech, other citizens of Carroll county, on the same subject. Leadbetter, Maleon, Mitchell, McCloud, McCormnick, 31r. STILWELL presented a petition from Mary T. INaish, Perkins, Thompson of Stark, Williams, and MleDortald and fiftj-five other females of Muskingum Worthinlgtonll-32. county, on the sabe saubject. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Miont Also, a petition from Matrthla J. Findly and fifty- gomery, Barnett of Preblo, Bennett, Brown of Carroll nine other females of 3Muskintgum county, on the same Case of Licking, Chliambers, Clark, Farr, Florence, subject. (illett, Gray, Greene of Defianlce, Gregg, Groest-eck, MIr. SMITI-l of Warren, presented a petition from Hamilt Hrd Hawk,, Hndern Hls oot Phloebe Lichards and forty-four other males and fe man, Humphreville, Hunter, Jones, King, Larwil, zna.les of the countv of Warren on the saeine subject?Lidey, London, MIasoii, Morehead, Morris, Ortoii, Ot is, MIr. CASE of Licking, presented a petition from E. Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Rainey, RreT. lii, S wtyer, M. Boring and fortv-three other citizens of Licking Scott of Harrison, ctt of Auglaize, Snitt of Iighcounty, on the sare subject. land, Smith of Warren, Snuith of Wy;ridot, Stanbery, Mlr. GIsiLE'IT presented apetitiorn from 0.. GClid- Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Strible, doi and sixty-tvo other citizens of Scioto and Law Swan Swift, Thomlisi'i of Shelbv, rownahteid, Way, reiee county, on the same subject. Wilso.i, Woodbury and President-f). Mr. PEPKINS presented a petition from Thomas So thie motion to go into Committee of the Whole J. MtcLain and seven other citizen,s'of thwas disagreed to. Truarbull, on the sanme subject. I The question then bring on the adoption of the rea Mr. HARLAN presented a petition from William olution of Mr. CIlARK, intetr, rJohn Ilauhley and thirtv-five other citizens Mr. SMITH of Wyandot.moved to areund the resoof Greene county, on the same sul-)ject. lution by adding at the end, "except when ill Corm — Mr LIDEY presentrled apetition from T. E. Taylor rmittee of the Whole," which was accepted by the and thirty-six otlher citizens ofthe county of Perry, on mrover. the saiie siob)jecet. Mr. WOODBURY moved to amend the resolution ESaid poet2ion.s were severally referred to the Select by striking out ten and inserting fifteen. Comimittee on the subject of Retailing Ardent Spirits. Mr. BARNETT of Preble moved to lay the resolei IMr. CLAit' of Lorain, offered for adoption, the fol- tion and pending amendments on the table, upon wich lowing reso ukll-: I motion, Resolved, That no member of this Convention be | Mr CLARK demended the yeas and navs, which hereafter allowed to speak longer than ten minutes Xwere ordered, and resulted, ayes 51, noes 40; as fol upon any one question without the ainanimous con- lows sentof this Convention, except when in committee of YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, the whole. B B.anett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Mlr. CLARK. I have offered this resolution with Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of foe hope and firm belief, if it is adopted by the Con- Hocking, Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, vention, that it will tend to facilitate the business of Cutler, Dorsey, Farr, Florence, Green of Ross, Groes this bodv. If this end can be attained it is certainly beck, Hamilton, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, very advisable. This Convention has been in session Hithcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hootman, Horton, 317 18 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATESTUESDAY, JANUARY 14. shall contain but one act, and embrace but one object, which shall be clearly expressed in its title, and no law shall be re vived, or amended by reference to its title only, but in revi ving or amending an act, the nlew act shall contain the en tire act revived, ortht cane the setion or sections amended, and the section or sections of the act amended o r a lte red, shall be en tirely repealed. Sec. 15. The style of the laws of this State, shall be —"Be it enacted by the General Asseordbl) of the State of Ohio." Shc. 16. The General Assembly shall fix by law, the term of office, an d the compensation of all officers, not otherwise fixed in this Constitution, provided that no change therein shall affect the incumbent then inl office for the term of office for which he shall have been elected o r appointed. SEc. 17. No Senator or Representative, shall, during the term for which he shall hav e b een elected, nor during the period of one year subsequent t o the expiration o f hi s term of office, be elected or appointed to any civil office under thish State, uwhich shall have be en created, or t he emolum ents of which shall have been increased, during the term for which he was elected. EC. 18 The General Assembly shall determine by law before what authority, and in what manner contested elec tioll shall be conducted; provided, however, that no elec tions shall be contested before either House of the General Assembly, except in reference to members of their own body. SEC. 19. No money shall be drawn from the Treasu ry, ex cept in pursuance of a distinct and specific app,ropriation made by law, and no appropriation shail be made for a longe r per io d than tw o y ears. SEC' 20. An accurate and detailed statement, o f the re ceipt,s and exp enditures of th e publ ic m on ey, a nd of the names of the pe r s ons who shal have received the same, to - gether with the amount and the object for whi ch they have received it, respectively, shall, from time to time be pu blish ed as shall be directed by law. SE,c. 21. The House of Representatives shall have the so le power of impeachment, but a majority of all the Reapres en tatives elect, must concur therein. Al impeachments shall be tried by the Senate, and when sitting for that purpo se. th e Senators shall be upon oath or affirmation to do justice as cording to law and e idence. No person sh all be convicted without the concurrence o f two thirds o f t he Senators. Juh ties of the Peace, County and Townshi p officers, may be re, moved in such manner, and for such cause as shall be pre scribed by law. n SEC. 22. The Governors and a ll State officers, including the Jud ges o f the differe nt Co urts, shall b ae liable to impeach ment for misdemeanor in office; but judgm ent shall not ee - tend further than removal from office, and disqualification to hold any office o f t r ust, honor or profit under the authority of this State. The parties, whe ther c onvict ed or no t shall,s nevertheless, be liable to in dictment, trial and judgment. ac cording to law. SSc. 23. All r egu l ar s essions of the Gen eral As sembly shall commence o n the fir st Mon day o f January, bi-ennialy, and the first s ession under this Conetitution, shall commen ce on the first Monday of Janunary, e ighteen hundred and fffty two. SEc 24. No person holding any office under the authority of the United States, or any lucrative office under the au thority of this State, shall be eligible as a candidate, or have a s ea t in the General Assembly, provided that Towns-hip offi cers, Justices of the Peace, Notaries Public, o r officer s oD r the Militia, shall not be deemed lucrative officers. SEC. ~5. No person shall be elected or appointed to any office in this State, unless he possesses the qualifications of an elector. SEc. 26. No person, who shall hereafter be convicted of a defalcation or embezzlement of the public funds, shall be capable of holding any office of trust, honor or profit, nor shall any person holding any public money for disbursement, or otherwise, have a seat in the General Assembly, until such person shall have accounted for, and paid into the treasury, all moneys for which he may be accountable or liable. Sec. 27. No divorce shall be granted by the General Assembly nor shall any judicial power not herein expressly granted, ever be exercised by the General Assembly. SEc. 2~. Columbus shall be the seat of government, until otherwise ordleredl by lad. Sec. 29. All laws of a general nature, shall have a uniform operation, nor shall any law be passed to take effect or be operative upon the approval of ally other authority than the General Assembly, except as otherwise provided in this Constitution. Sac. 30). The manner of the election and appoihvtment of all officers, and of the filling of all vacancies not otherwivse directed by this Constitution, or the Constitution of the U~nited States, shall be made in such manner.as may be dirlected by law, provided, however. that no appointing powver shall ever be vested in, or exercised by the General Assembly, exsept the appointment of officers3 for their own bodL and) Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Kennion, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Marion, Mason, Mitchell, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Peck, Perkins, Ranney, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Thompson of Stark, Williams, and Worthington-51. NAYs-Messrs. Barbee, Blair, Chaney, Clark, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, H ard, Harlan, Hawkins, Holt, Humphreville, King, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, Morehead, Morris, 0-ton, Otis, Patter son, Quigley, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Augiaize, Smith of Wyandot. Stebbins, Stil well, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Townshend, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-41. So the motion to lay on the table was agreed to. Mr. SAWYER, presented the following: Report No. 2, of the Standing Committee on the Leg islative Department. ARTICLE I. ON TPHE lrEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT. Syc. 1. The legislative power of this State, shall be ves ted in a General Atssemb]y, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives. Sr~c. 2. Senators and Representatives shall be elected bi ennialIly by the electors in the respective Counties or Dis. tricts, on the 2d Tuesday of October. Their term of office shall be two years, to be computed from the first day of Jan i uary succeeding their election. Sec. 3. Senators and Representatives shall have resided within the limits of the respective county or district, from which they shall be chosen, one year next preceding their election, unless they shall have been absent on the public business of the United States or of this State. SEC. 4. Each [louse shall he the judge of the elections, re tu ns and qualificatins of its members. A majority of all the menmbers elected to each House, shall be a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and compel the attendance of absent members, in such manl ner, and under such penalties as shall be prescribed by aw. Sec. 5. Each House shall, except as otherwise provided in this Constitution, choose its own officers, Each House may determine its own rule of proceedings, punish its mem bers for disorderly conduct, and with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member, but not the second time for the samxe cause; and each House shall have all other powers nec essary to provide for its safety, and for the undisturbed trans action of its business. Sec. 6. Each House shall keep a correct journal of its proceedings, and take efficient means to publish the same. The yeas and nays shall, at the desire of any two members, be entered upon the journal, and on the passage of every bill in either House, the vote shall be taken by yeas and nays, and entered upon the journal, and no law shall be passed in either House, without the concurrence of a majority of all the members elected thereto. SEC. 7. The printing of the laws, journals, bills and all legislative documents and papers for each branch of the General Assembly, together with the printing required for the executive departmer t, and other officers of State, shall be let on contract to the lowest responsible bidder, by such executive officers, and in such mode and manner as shall be prescribed by law. SEc. 8. Any member of either House shall have the right to protest against any act or resolution thereof, and such protest. and the reasons therefor, shall, without alterat ion, commitment or delay, be entered upon the journal SEC. 9. All vacancies which may happen in either House, shall be filled by election, as shall be directed by law. SEC. 10. Senators and Representatives, shall, in all cases except treason, felony or breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest, during the session of the General Assembly, and in going to and retarning from the same, and for any speech or debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in SEC. 11. The proceedings of both Houses shall be public,e ex cept in cases, which in the opinion of tw o third s of those present require secrecy. SEc, 1~. Neither House shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than two days, Sundays excluded, nor to any other place than that in vehicle the, two Houses shall be in session. Sec. 13. Bills mlay originate in either Mouse, but may be altered, amended or rejected in the other. 8Ec 14. Every bill shall be fully and distinctly read on three different days, unless in case of urgency, three-fourths eof the Houlse in which the question shall be pending, shedl deema it expedient to dlispense with this rule; and every hill OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Tu.ESDAY, JANLIARY 14. 318 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 14. 319~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ comparatively a rude and barbarous State. She has mc. ade progress, and now, in the simnplicity of her practice, and in the directness of her pleadings, she is far before us in Ohio. Her system is much more consistent with reasoning and logic,'more stripped of its fiction and its absurdity, than our own. Gentlemen may defend their errors and fictions as long as they please, but the time of reform will conie. The gentlemant from Knox (Mr. MITCIIrLL,) inquires if I wobld give a jury in cases now tried in courts of Chancery. I w,iuld give every man who has a case to try in a court of justice his election whether it shall be tried by a jury or not. This, however, belongs to the details of the system. The gentleinan further inquires whether in such cases I would bring witnesses into court? Of all the abuses that we now labor under, I look upon this practice of making witnesses upon paper, as one of the greatest. In all cases when the witness is within reach of the court, I would bring him in, in person, and then, in the presence of the Court, and in the hea ri ng of the parties, call upon him to testify what hie knows in the case, under circumstances better than all others calculated to elicit the truth. Mr. ARCHBOLD said that the gentleman fromi Trumbulli, [Mr. RANNEY,] had entirely mistaken the question. His whole speech may be regarded as a string of sophisms. His argument is based upon the presumption, that the committee to revise the rules of practice, may comply with their duties, by reporting back to the Legislature, that they had nothing to do. This is not true. The section provides that the commiss ione rs shall abridge, they shall simplify rules and forms of practice, and they are as far as they deem it practicable and expedient, to abolish the distinction between law forms and chancery forms. Here is where the discretion is allowed; and if the gentleman will descend from the high horse of his transcendental eloquence, he will see that such discretion is absolutely necessary, in order to accomplish the objects contemplated to be secured. If the commissioners be forced to go further than it deems practicable and expedient, their work will not be well done; for men only do well, that which they deem expedient to be done. The committee that made this report, were every one bold reformers. They were wilting to go as far as reason and common sense would permit. They felt as if they were providing for a great work; and that in doing so, it would be absolutely necessary to leave something to the discretion of those who were to perform the labor. Mr. STANBERY. The report of the committeealthough I cannot concur in it-is evidently prepared with care. It proposes merely a reform of the anode of proceeding in civil cases, and does not go to the law itself. The gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNrEY,] proposes to abolish all forms of action, and to make it incumbent upon the committee, to take away all distiuction between proceedings at law and in chancery. And this, hle calls a wholesome reform. There is to be but one form of action, for all rights, either at law, or in chancery. That, Mr. President, can never be done. Let us look at the consequences. The first consequence is, that it will abolish at once, all statutes of limitations-those wholesome laws of repose; for these laws go to the form of action, and not to the thing itselL. Mr. RANNEY. Might not the Legislature frame a t statute of limitations, to apply to cases instead of forms? Mr. STANBERY. That statute must be framed to suit each particular case. It must be extensive as the law itself. It would requiae a book of five hundred pages, to contain the law merely of limitations. But the gentleman complains of a multiplicity of forms. Why, sir, forms are the very life of the law. United States Senators, and in all such elections, the vote shall be taken "viva voc,." tEc. 31. No person, who shall hereafter send, accept or carry a challenge for, or fight a duel, or assist in the samie, as second, or otherwise, shalt be eligible to, or capable of holding any office of trust, honor or profit. SEc. 32. Lotteries, and the sale of lottery tickets, for any purpose whatever, snail forever be prohibited in this State. .,',c. 33. The General Assembly shall have no power to pass retroactive laws, or laws impairing the obligation of contracts, provided, however that acts of incorporation or corporate franchises, privileges or immunities, whether granted by a general or special law, shall never be deemed contracts or irrepealable. Szc 34. The General Assembly shall never authorize the payment of any extra compensation to any officer, public agent or contractor after the service has been rendered, or the contract enteredi into, nor grant by appropriation or otherwise, any amount of money, to any individual, or any claim real or pretended, when the same shall not have been provided for by preceding law. Szc. 35. No new counties shall be created by the General Assembly, containing less than four hundred square miles of territory, nor shall any county be reduced below that. amount, and all laws providing for changes in county lines, and for the removal of conniity seats, shall be first submitted to the qualified electors, within such county or counties, at a general election, and only be valid when approved by a majority of the voters voting at such election: provided. however, that any county, either now or hereafter, containing a populatioii of one hundred thousand, or more, inhabitants, may be subdivided whenever a majority of the voters residing in each of the sub-divisions shall approve of the law passed for that purpose. Suc. 36. Private property shall ever be hotel inviolate, and no private property, whethet held by individuals or corporations shall ever betaken for public use, iiiiless the public goodi iiup)eratively demands it, but in all cases fuill and adequate coi,,peinsatioii in mnoniey, shall first le tiiade to thie owner or owners, to be assessed by a jury, and sul)ject to no deduction for any lbeniefits accr-uIng to aly p)rope ry ot the owner or owners. SEc. 3,. Every person when chosen or appointed to any office of honor, trust or profit under this state, shall, before enttering on the execution thereof, takce all oath or affirmation, to support the constitution. of the United States and of this state, and also an oath of oifice. SEc. 38. It shall be the duty of the presiding officer to sign publicly, in the presence of the House, over which he presides, and while the same is in session, and capable of transacting business, all bills and joint resolutions passed by the General Assembly. SEc. 39. The members of the General Assembly shall receive such compensation as shall from time to time be prescribed by law, and which shall not be increased or dinmin.. ished to be operative during their own term of office. ,SEc. 40.,Te mod e of orga nizing the House of Re,presentatives a t the comulencetment of each regular session, shall be prescribed by law. All of which is respectfully submitted. WM. S-AWYER, CH.,S. REEMELIN, J. THOMPSON, D. CHAIIIBEIS, SAMaIL. MOREHEAD, B. B. HUINTER, JosEPH BARNET, R. W. CAHILL, THOlMAS A. WAY. Mr. BARNETT of Preble moved that the report of the Coammittee on Jurisprudence be taken up; which was agreed to. The question being on the amendment of Mr. RAN,EY, to strike out of the fourth and fifth lines, the words, "as far as practicable and expedient." Mr. RANNEY tihoug,,ht the reform in the system of jurisprudence was either demanded or it was not. If it was demanded, the comminissioners appointed to carry it out, ought not to be called upon to settle the question whether the reform was called for. All he de sired was, not to throw down an d destroy the science of t he common law, but to strip it of its deformities and excrescences, and to leave it in a form best ealculated to attract the affections of the people. It is important, in the furtherance of justice, that there should he a sound system of laws, as it is that there should be a learned and honest judiciary~ Without the one, the other will prove to be powerless, in securing justice to the people. In regard to the gsystem of practice, we are infinitely behind Enlgland in progress and improvement. We drew our system of practice from Great Britain, at a time when she was OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUFSDAY, JANUARY 14. 319 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 14. complaint for the exactness that was required in the statemenit-the slightest variance in the proof being fatal. The subject was up in parliam.ennt, and several statutes were framed, the result of which has been, that by the use of a simple fiction, the whole of tihis complexity has been avoided. And it is to carry us back to these old timnes, that the reforms advocated by the gentleman from Cliniton, (Mr. MoiRrIS,) tend. The gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RAiNEYv,) com plains of fictions that lhanig around the action of Tro ver. These have grown out of the extension of the remedial power of the action. It has been in the progress of reform that this fiction has arisen. But does it affect the issue to be joined in the case? No sir. The issue is a truth, aind upon that issue the trial proceeds. Gentlemen talk of an attempt on the part of law yers in this body to put a stop to the progress of re forym. Do these gentlemen read enough of the his tory of England, to have learned the position holdern by thile great Lord Coke and other legal luminaries of his day in regard to reform and improvement, as well in the principles of liberty as in the forms of law. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga, said that it seem ed to him, gentlemen were consuming timle unnecessa rily in this debate. He thought perhaps it would be as good a way as any, for us to adopt the sentiments and conformrn to the pr,actice of the Solicitoi General of Great Britain, andrabide by the common law. He did not understand genitlemen in their ideas of reform. Under our present practice, suit is commenc ed by process, which brings the defendant into court. Then comes the declaration, which is a succinct state mrent of the causes of action. This puts the defend aint upon his defence, and he pleads the several mat ters of defence, of evidence or of set off which he may be entitled to by the circumstances. What more do gentlemien secure by these reforms? The person complainingi must file his petition to the Judge. In that petition he must state his cause of complaint with sufficient certainty to enable the tribunal to give the proper relief. He must have all the substance of a declaration in his petition, if not its form. The de fendant instead of pleading must answer, and this is all that this reform amounts to. You abolish a few useful names, abandon a few convenient forms, and the reform is achieved. Gentlemen are very anxious for reform-so anxious that everything that changes what we have, is dubbed reform. It may be well to remember that although all changes may be reforms, all reforms may not be ilmprovements. He thoulght that as the change here proposed might not be reform, he should vote againist the amendment. fMr. MORRIS wanted to reply to the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL.) lIe has undertakeni to defend his old friends John Doe and Richard Roe. It is said'corporations have no souls. But John Doe it appears, as well as Richard Roe, have nrieithier souls nor bodies neither beginning of days nior end of time. [Laughter.] the State of Ohio, that did not, as its result, put a falsehood upon recoid. The declaration relates that the r. pesi d e nt, Idaser herealses intme leaeotros er sy to John Doe, for a term o nyears which has not yet expired. Now I ask the gentleman from KnoCx, (Mr. MITCHELL,) if this is true? We may, I think, set this down as a falsehood. Then, although the suit may be in reality for but a single case of land, the declaration pompoously avters that the person interested leased to th~e said John Doe, one thousand We cannot, even in this assembly, do without forms. They are not only convenient, but they are of great benefit to the client and his lawyer. They are the shortest, simplest, and most direct means of stating his case. He knows by it what it is necessary for him to prove; for he is not required to slate more than he can prove. It is the protection of the young lawyer against the experience of his elders, or the tyranny of the court. Bu t what is riieant by abolishito, all distinctions be tween law and equity? Are all cases to be stated alike? W hen you declare upon a promissory note, would you render the for m analogous to that of an assault and battery? Are there to [,e no distinctions between for ms of action? I s th ere to be the same set of forms to try a sui t in whichi the titl e o f land is called in question, as where a man sues another for slander? Is this w hat the gen tleman intends? Mpr. RANNEY. There would be, of course, differ. ent ni od e s of statement, to suit different cases. Mr. STANBERY. The n it only amounts to this, that we are to abolish one set of formt s for another. Now, I prefer thos e that we have. A man who desires to proc eed i n a c ourt of justicest f e, must file his libel, or hi s comnplaint, i n which he sets forth his cause of action, in gen era l terms; and t i thus, in the place of well defi ed and well u nderst ood terms and forms, that we all comprehend, we are to have a n infinitude of different forms, resulting ill uncertainty and loss to every one but the old lawyers. As yet we have kept the law free from these miscalled reforms of the law. Destructive as they have been to other sciences, we are compelled to say, let us refrain from setting anything afloat upon the wide sea of pretended reform. Mr. KIRKWOOD thought the commission provided for by the report,unnecessary. He thought the Conivention might declare that al forms of ac tioni and all distinction between law uind chancery be abolished, and then the cornmission would be unnecessary. Then any man might go into a court of justice and state his own case, and go to trial. Mr. RANNEY. The object of the commission is to provide an uniform mode of proceeding. Mr. KIRKWOOD. Why this would be providing a Dew set of forms.,. It would be providing precisely that which we are trying to get rid of. Now I was a little in favor of judicious law reform, but since the gentleman fronm Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) has declared that he did not expect the, lawyers ot this body to be in favor of reform, I rmuiist confess I have grown a little afhaid of it. But, to speak candidly, I confess I am afraid we are undertaking too much. That some of the known forms of action may be suppressed. is perhaps true, but that,a sweeping destruction of them all would be attended with benefit or even with safety, I do not believe. Mr. MITCHELL thought that there was a great deal of lying in this profession of law, and was disposed to go as far as his fiiend from Clinton, (Mr. MoRRIS,) in abolishing all legal fictions. He will learn however, if he will examine into the subject, that these fictions are only made use of for the purpose of presenting some real proposition of numbers or question of fact, that is to be solved lby their assistance. An~d why, when these simple and palpable fictions are,made use of as instruments to present a comiplexity of statemenat, when they mislead nobody, anidlwhen they affect the rights of no person, should there be 80 much anxiety to abolish them? The form of action ill e jectment was devised to get rid of the strict rules and cumbrous pleadings of the ancient real actions. They had become the subject of I 320 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 14. i,.... acres of arable land, one thousand acres of wo(od land, and one thousand acres of various other kinds of land. I would ask the gentleman if here is not another falsehood? Did he lease one thousand acres of arable land? or one thousand acres of wood land? or one thousand acres of meadow land? or one thousand acres of land covered with water? or one thousand acres of other land? or one thousand acres each of all of each these kinds of land put together? Is all this true? And so it goes oli multiplying false hoods by each other, until the result is too great for computation. I am astonished! I say sir, I am astoirnLshed, that a gentleman so learned and so astute as the gentlemnan frota Knox, (Mr. MITCRELL,)-for whose talents I have so boundless a respect,-upon whose integrity I place such implicit confidence;upon whose understand.;ng I have relied with such boundless faith, andl eho is in general so strong, so consistent, so bold and so courageous an advocate for progress, for advancement and improvement, as well a s for truth anrd mioroality in all the relations of public and private life, should urge the continuance of a form of action, at once so fraught with fallacy, and so sugg es tive of untruth. And now comes tuhe defendarit to this suit in ejec etment; and he i s n o less a personage th the celebrated, the ubiqtsitous — the perpetual Richard Roet-a per son havigng, in regard to his perpetual succession-fo he even tually succeeds hiimself-all the powers of a corporation. (Laughter.) He writes a letter to the tenant in possession or the person claiming title, inl forming him, that he, the said omni-present individual, to-wit: Richard Roe, havin,l been sued as the casual ejector, advises the tenant in possession, or claimant of title, to make himself a defendant in his stead, or he the said Richard, will be the undler the disagreeable necessity of suffering judgment to be rendered against him, by del'ault, ty which lhe the tenant must be turned out of the possession. To this he signs himself: 'Your loving friend, Richard Roe. (Laughter.) This ridiculous form of proceeding, my friend from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) advocates as the perfection of legal logic and of human invention, and for the mo ment, losing sight of his democracy, hie strays back ieto the regions of a forgotten antiquity, and, in his respect for the mists of past ages, he quotes from Lord Coke as if he were the very pick and choice of modern reformers. There is another objection to this form of action. It bars nothing, and ten or twenty suits may be brought upon the same cause of action, and still it is no nearer concluded than it was before. Mr. STANBERY, ( i his seat.) You can file a bill in Chancery. Mr MORRIS. Yes. But thetn another lawyer's fee must be paid. [Laughter.] The law should be fixed in such a way that if my friend from Knox should claim a piece of land of mine, he could bring his action in the name of MATTHEW 1I. MITCHELL, against ISAIAH MoRnis, and lay claim to it. I in my ownt name could defend-the question could in that form be submritted to the Court, decided, and all further claims concluded. The gentleman from Knox talks of Lord Coke, and draws his ideas of liberty from some hill of rights. Now, I date my bill of rights from the fourth of July, 1776, and I wish we may adopt a code of organic laws, based upon our own ideas, and for which we shall not be indebted to any foreign power. He claims to be a democrat of the progressive kind. With what face then can he comne up and cite to Os his Cokes, his Ba cons, and his Chittys. This reform in the action of ejectmeait has been adopted in Pennsylvania, and in New York, and shall we, I ask, be behind those States, in the adoption of that which is at suie simple a nd salutary? I hope not. We have the oppo rtunity to reform now before us-it'.s our duty t o improvea it; and it spuite of the s cruples o f the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. STANBERY,] a nd the gentle m ran fron Knox, [Mr. MITCfIFLL,] I hope we shall do so. Our system of j urispruden(ce, now that we have the mean s of revising it frl m i ts ver y foundation, should be made plain, clear, direct, certain and conclusive. It should be adapted to our republican forms of governmenit, and present that arpe trance of uniformity and consistency with o ur other institutions that shall give to the whole the syammetry of a pe rfect edifice, ofiplete in all its parts, complete in their adaptation to each other, and completer still as a great and magiiifi. cent whole.. How much better is this than a patch-work, made, up of shreds taken here and there from Great Britain, and joined Withoutsymmnetry, without elegance, kind without reason in justice or the necessities of mankind. I am myself no admirer of the government of Great Britain. It has been quoted as a stupendous fabric of human wisdom, erected, compacted, and conrsolidated by the experience of ages, and promising to stand as long as time shall endure, an imperishable monument of the progress of man toward the summit of perfection. Sir, in my opinion it is no such thing. It is rathera stupendous fabric of human oppression, laid upon a foundation of tyranny and built up of ex ploded errors and obsolete absurdities-useful only in perpetuating the slavery and servitude to which it owes its motley and barbarous origin. Its safety consists in that it is sustained by the superstitions of a church without religion, and the happiness it confers may be seen in its millions who are crying for bread. Sir, that country presents no model for our imitation. (Ap plause.] For the purpose of still further showing the absurd ity of this mnode of procedure, and how little it is un derstood by the people, allow me to relate an anecdote, which I had from an honorable gentleman now occu pyinig a seat upon the bench. On the trial of an action in Ejectment, the title pa pers of the Plaiintiffwere, as usual read in evidence, and the declaration. When they came to the allega tion of the demise to John Doe, of oue thousand acres of land covered with water, a bystander who had all along, listened very impiaatiently could contain himself no longer. "Stop," said he,,that is a mistake. I know all about it. My father-in-law bought that land, and paid for it, in a stud-horse." (Roars of laughter.) Thus, Mr. President, it may be seen, at a glance,how little such fictions are adapted to the inquiring spirit of the people, and the freedom of our form of govern ment. And sir, in looking over this whole matter, and in its light studying my duty to my constituents and the people of the state, 1 am constrained to say that I shall vote for the amendment, and if that shall fail, I will vote for the original report, and trust that even with. out the amendment, it will answer the purpose. Sir, let us come back to first principles. Let us look at those doctrines which lie at the foundation of hu mnan liberty. Let us draw our wisdom from a rigid examnination of our own eonldi[!on. The fathers of our liberty in seventy-six, did nlot look to G~reat Britain as their model. Had they done so, where would we be, at this time? We should be colonlies, instead of free indPependent states. Anld now we are called upon to con~tin1ue and carry out that reform then6 so gloriously begun. Thle platform is before us, and we have only to build upon1 it. Sir; let us begin by expelling from our courts of justice these suppressors of truth and fathers of falsehood, John Dot anld Richard Roe. (Ap pzlause.) 321 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 14. evils can only be avoided by providing for a just compensa tion, when private property is destroyed or taken by the act of the Government. in matters of fraud upon the part of corporations, I would likewise provide an ample and speedy remedy by forfeiture. In such case I would provide for the forfeiture of both prop erty and franchise. This in truth, under careful and whole some legislation, would be found the most effective remedy that could be given the people, in order to guard them against the mischiefs, the evils and the dangers hitherto, and now. so much complained of. Such a remedy would require no ap. propriation out of the public Treasury-nor is there any con. stitutional, obligation incompatible with it. As to the taxing power, I entertain no doubt property in corporations should be taxed as other property. But I desire not to be tedious, I have said that the obligations imposed upon me, by the oath of office which I have taken, render it altogether out of the question for me to obey the instructions given me upon the subject of unro ditional repeal. Nor will I permit those, who have assumed t9 bemy INQUISITORS, to place me in a position which would carry with it even the appearance of disobedience to the will of my constituents. The instructions will doubtless be understood by those out of my county, as embodying the senti. menits of the people, whom I have represented in part here. To disregard them therefore, would involve me in that kind of censure, wuitch I am determined, whilst I have the power, to avoid. If the few that have instructed me, have spoken in a matter of so much solicitude, without authority, they have forfeited even the compassion of their fellow men; and they should be held immediately responsible to those, who se voice they have s o officiously misrep resented. But if they have truly spoken the sentiments of the people of my county, then I could not act the part of an honorable man, if I did not at once vacate my seat. In order therefore, that right and justice may be done in the premises, I have prepared my resignation, which I shall forward immediately to the Governor. My official relations with you, Mr. President, and with my much esteemed fellow delegates around me. are consequently at an end. ELIJAH VANCE. On motion of Mr. NASH, the Convention took a recess. Mr. SAWYER moved that the report of the Com-' mittee on Jurisprudenice be laid on the table, which was agreed to. Mr. SAWYER, from the Committee on the Legis lative Departrnent, to which had been recommitted re port No. 1 of the said stasidiug committee, reported back a new report, which, on his motion was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. The PRESIDENT, laid before the Convention the following communuicationi fromn Mr. VANCE of Butler: CINCINNATI, Jan. 14, 1851. Col. Medill, President Ohtio Cns!'itutional Convent ions: SIR:-At a public meeting, held at the Court House, on Saturday evening last, the following preamble and resolutions were introduced, and immediately voted for, by some twelve or fifteen of those who were present: ffnEREAS, Believing as we do, that circumstances have lately transpired i:i our constitutional convention, rendering it necessary, or at least proper, for the democracy of Butler county, to renew their expression if sentiment upon public measures now agitating the people of the state.'lherefore, be it Resolve d, That we do re-affirm, and strictly adhere to the principles set forth and declared, in certain resolutions pass ed at a county meeting of the democracy of Butler, on the ninth day of March, 1850. Resolved further, That we rigidly adhere to the principle, of the right of repeal; and that we believe said right in the Legislature, should extend to any and all acts of previous legislatures, and therefore now declare it our wish and de sire, that a clause conferring this right unqualifiedly, upon the state Legislature, should be engrafted upon our state Con stitution. Resolved, also, That we do hereby reiterate our instructions of 9th of march last, to our delegates to the constitutional convention, and that unless those instructions be adhered to strictly, that said delegates be, and hereby are, requested to resign their posts. It will be seen by these resolutions, that I, as a delegate, am instructed to support the doctrine of unqualified repeal, as well with respect to existing charters, as to those which may be granted in the future. It will not be proper for me, on the present occasion, to call into question the authority of those who undertake to speak for, and express the voice of the constituent body, by whose suffrages I obtained a seat upon'this floor. The fact as to whether they have assumed the guardianship of my constituents by force of arms and un lawfully, 1 leave to be decided elsewhere, and at another time. It is due to myself however to say, that that portion of the instructions which are referred to, as',our isistruc tions of 9th of March last," were drawn up by them and pub lished, as understood at the time, for my especial benefit, prior to nmy having been elected a delegate to this convention. I refused then, over my own signature, to acknowledge as binding opon me, the platform thus laid down. Some of the sentinients therein expressed, I opposed, and still do oppose, as being unwise and in truth ridiculous, when viewed in connection with our duties here asdelegates. The opposition I then made to them, gained me more than one thousand votes, over any other candidate then running for the same office in Butler. I had supposed that my success in this particular, had put to nest forever,',our instructions of the 9th of March."' As to the remaining sentiment, of conferring the right of repeal "unqualifiedly" upon the state legislature, I cannot, and will not obey. My own sense of duty renders it impossible, and the obligations imposed by my oath of office, forbid it. It is well known to the members of the convention, that I have advocated, and zealously advocated, the doctrine of repeal uponi this Bfloor. But I have done so with a qualification compatible with the provisions of the constitution of the United States. The General Assembly shall have a controlling power over all corporations and franchises, and as amplo as the ends of justice and the safety of our people could demand. The power to alter, amend or repeal, never should be denied. But where the exercise of this power, the private property of the citizen is taken or destroyed, a just compensation should be made therefor. Aside from cosistitutional guarantee, justice and honesty demand the inviolability of private property, when honestly possessed by the citizen. Upon this basis, courts of Justice wouldsustain the General Assembly in the exercise of the power ot repeal. The exercise of the power of unqualified repeal, when proparty would be lost thereby, never would be sustained whilst the constitution of the United States remains as it now is. The consequences therefore, would result in a hazardous conflict between the state and the Federal constitution. And who could knowingly encourage such a ruinousuonflct? I only answer for myself, I would not nor could not. Such 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. Mr. SMITH, of Wyandot, moved to take up the resolution offered this morning by Mr. CLARK, of Lo rain, to limcit the time of s pe eches in Convention, with the amendments. The question being on taking up, Mr. MIcCORMICK demanded the ayes and noes. Mr. LEECH demanded a call of the Convention, which was agreed to on division, yeas 38, ilays 21. A call of the Convention was then ordered, and tihe following gentlemen were reported absent:-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Chambers, Clark, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hitchcock of Cuyahogi, Hootman, Horton, Kennon, Larsh, Lawrence, Reeme lin, Riddle, Sellers, Stanbery, Taylor, Vance of Cham paign, and Warren. Mr. STANBERY moved that all proceedings un der the call be dispensed with; Upon which question, Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 68, nays 20, as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Collings, Cook, -Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Henderson, Holt, Hunt, Hun. ter, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Lidev, Loudon, Manou, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McClond, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Raniney, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Simiith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Struble, Swan, Swift, Townshend, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-68. 322 ,&VMNOON SESSION. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 14. NAYS-Messrs. Brown of Carroll, Chaney, Ewing, I YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Bartnetof MontFarr, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Hard, Hitchcock goinery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer,Brown of Gc auga, Huiphlireville, Johnson, Leech, Leadbet- of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case ter, Mitchell, Nash, Quiigley, Scott of Auglaize, Stid- of Lickil)g, Clis;mbers, Cook, Cutler, Dorsey, Florenrie, ger, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, and Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Wilson-20. Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuyalhoga. Hitchcock of Geauga, So the Convention dispensed with all further pro Horton, Iluniplkreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kirkceedings under the call. wood, Larshi, Leech, Leadbetter, Mianon, Mitchell, The question being on taking up the resolution, the Nash, Peck, Raninev, Riddle, Roll, Smith of Highland, yeas anid nays were not insisted on, and the question Smith of Warren, Stanibery and Stanton-43. was taken by division; yeas 52, niays not counted. NAYs-Messrs. ijarbee, Bennett, Blair, Cahill, Cha So the resolution wvas taken up. ney, Collings, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Greene The questionll then being on the amendment, to of Defiance, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Hunter, strike out "ten" and insert "fifteen." King. Larwill, Lidey, Loudon,MasonL,Morris,McCloud, Mr. MANON would go for the shortest time, if any McCormick, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quigtine was to be fixed. Icy, Reemelin. Sawyer, Scott of Harrison Scott of Mr. SMITH, of Wyandot, thought as time was fast Auglaize, Snmith of Wvandot, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickpassitlg, it! was high time finr the Convention to pro- hey, Stidger, Struble, Swaii, Taylor, Thompson of gress vwith business. He was not disposed to gag Shelby, 1'-iompnson of Clark, Townshend, Way, Wilmembers, but thought that gentlemen might, in fif- liams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President teen miinutes, give their views on any question now -50. to be discussed. Mr. MANON inquired if there were not some re- So the motion to postpone was disagreed to. ports that hald not been discussed at all. as they pased The question being on filling the blank with "fifthrough Conmmittee of the Whole-the Bank report teen ~fo~~~r inl~stance. -Mr RANNEY demanded the yeas and niays, which A division of the question being called for, the were ordered, ald reulted yeas 51, nays 46, as folquestion turned in striking out the word "ten," which lows: was agreed to; yeas 49, nays not counted Y.EAs-Messrs. Barhee, Blair, Calfill, Chaney. Clark, Tlhe question being on filling the blank, the several Curry, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene ot terms of tlthirty," "twenty-five,"'-twenty," "fifteen," Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Holt, Hunt, Hunter, were stiggested. Kirkwood, Larwill, Lidey,Loudon, Mason. Morehead, The question on filling the blank with "thirty," was Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterdisagreed to. sont, Perl-ins, Reeni-elin, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, The question then being on filling the blank with Scott of Auglaize, Snith of Wyazidot, Stebbii,a, Stil. "t~wenty-five,"' the same was d-lisagreed to. well, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, TI'homr1ason The question then being on filling the blank with of Shelby, T'lioniimsill of Stark, Towushend, Way,Wil. "twenty," so011, Woodbury, Worthington and President-5i. Mr. LEECH demnarded the yeas an~t nays, which eMr. LE?ECHT delniauded the l yeas 3anI nalys, which NsAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of Mont. were ordered, and resulted —yeas 30, nays 62, as fol- gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickens n n n ~~~~~~~gemcery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennestt, Bliekenlso lows: derfer, Brown of Athlens, Brown of Carroll, Case of YEAs —Messrs. Bates, Cahill, Collings, Curry, Dor- Hocking, Case of Lickinlg, Chanmbers, Collings, Cook, sey. Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Graham, Hamilton, Cutler, Dorsey, Florence, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hitchcock of Cutyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hor- Hamiltoin, Harlan, Hniiderson, Hitchcock of Cuyaiotoli, Hunt, Hunter, Kirkwood, Leech, Loudon, Mason, ga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Humphrevyile, Mitchell, McCloud, Otis, Perkins, Smith of Highland, Johnson, Jones, King, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Statibery, Stilwell, Swan, ThomIpson of Stark, Wil Manoni, Mitchell, Nash, Otis, Peck. Ranney, Riddle, son and Worthiiigton-30. Roll, Sellers, Smith of Higllland, Smith of Warren, NAYs- Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet Stallbery, Stanton, Stickuey and Williams —47. of Montgoniery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blair Blicken'iderfier, Browit ot Atheits, Browvn of Carr ii' S1o tile blank was filled with the word "fiteen." Blickenisderfur, Brow,ni of Athiensc, Brown of Carroll, Caseof lockiner Caseof Licking Chambers,'ae The questioln being on the adoptiont of the resoluCase of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chambers., Chance,tiD Cook, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Grav, Greene of Defiance, Mr. LOUDON moved to aind the resolution by Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan, Haw- Mr. LOUDON moved to aend the resolution by Ckiis, Heofde Rso, Holt, HurklHreville, JHolsn, JoRaes dding at the end the following: "And from and after kitis, HeuderIsoi, Rolt Hutmphsievtille, Johnson, Jones,tomro Kiug, Larbh L ~r Lidey Maito morrowea -, this Convention shall hold eveililig sessions, King, Larshi, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mainor, Morehead, ni tewsree." QIg until otherw ise i~rdered."' Morris, IcCoiiiciik, Nash, Nortis, Orton, Peck, Quig- M- CHAMBERS was opposed to the measure proley, Rauimey, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer', Smith of Warren,posed the ease Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift' posed in tse anentnet. He thougt there was tim, Taylor, Thonlpson of Shelbty, Towishend, Way, Wil- enough spent, and rather than hold ening sessions, liciiils Woodbuirv alnd Presildent-62. we had better m,-et earlier in the day time. M r. LOU DON asked and obtained leave to withdraw So the lotionll to fill the blank with the word "twen- his amendment ty," was disagreed to. Mr. GREEN of Ross moved to lay the resoltion on So the Couventiots refused to insert the words tie table; oln which motion, "twenty." Mr. KIRKWOOD dellianded the yeas and nays, Thel qujestion then being on filling the blank with which were ordered, and resulted yeas 40, nays 53, as "fifteen," follows Mr. HITCHCOCK, of Cuyahoga, moved that the resolation andl peitelitig ametidmeuts be postponed to YEAs-Messrs. Antdrews, Archbold, Barnet of Montthe first Monday ill May next, upon whick motion, gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bciiuett, Blickens Mr. SMITH, of Wyatndot, demanded the yeas and derfer, Brown of Carroll, Case of flocking, Case of nays. which were ordered, and rfeulted-ayes 43, Licking, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Groecsck, Hanilnays 50, as follow,' tion, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, nays H tchcock of Geauga, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, 22 323 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 14. Johnson, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Manoti, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Nash, Otis, Rid(le, Roll, of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Stebbins, Stilwell, Smith of Warren, Statibery, Stanton, Strub tleandWit. Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, liams-40. Thompson of Shelby, Townshenid, Way, Woodbury, NAYS-Messrs. Barbee, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown and President-51. of Atihens, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Cutler, NAYS —MCsrs Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett. Gray, Bates, Broun of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Greens of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Horton, Hocking Chanbers, Collings, Cnrry, Cutler, Ewart King, Kirkwood, Li(dey, Loudoti, Morris, McCloud, Florence, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, McCormnick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perk ins, Quig- Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuvalioga, Hitchcock of Geaulga, ley, Ranney, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Harrisoni, Holmes, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt,JohnScott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Wy- son, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Mitchell, an dot, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Swan, Swift, Tay- Mrehead, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Otis, Peck, Roll lor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson,f Stark, Towns- Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren. Smith of Wnend, Wav, Wilson, Woiodbury, Worthiogtoll and andot, Stanbery, Stanton, Thompson of Stark, WilPr,.sident-54. liamns, Wilson and Worthingi ton-6. So the Convention refused to lay the resolution on '-, table. So the Convention ordered the main question to be ~'-'table. now put. The question then being on the adoption of the res- The question being on the adoption of the resolu-t olulio The question be,ng on te adoption of the resolu Mr. GREEN of Ross moved to strike out of the r CHAMBERS demanded the yeas and nays, resolution the words "except when in Commrnlttee of Mr CHAMBERS demanded tle yea and nays the b hole." which were ordered, and restlted-yeas 45, nays 54, Mr GREEN could not see any reason for making as follows: this distinction. If any discrimination is to be made, YEAs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Curry, it should be in favor of debates in Convention, instead Ewig Frr, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greee, of Defi Ewing., Garr, Fad,orbe, HuitertKtg,LGray,LGreene, oet of Committee of the Whole. He thought the adoption ae, Greg, Hard,Hot, HuntersKing,LideyLoi d, of -a rule of this kind, orf'very doubtful wisdom. of a rule of this kited, of'very doubtful wisdom. Morris, Orton, Pattersoti, Qitigley, Reemeliti, Sawyer, Mr. ARCHBOLD also saw no reason for a discri- Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Stebbins, Stil M.tion iAl favor of Com nittee of the fohole. Mr. well, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, AtCHiBOLD went on to repel.the idea that the debatesW ThoWpso, of Shelby,Thompson olStark, Towsheud in this Convention had been lengthy and windy. Wy, Wilson, Wodbury, Worthington and Presi Hie could and would tell the people of Ohio who it dent-45. was that was to blame for the great protraction of the NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee Barnet diebates of this Convention. It was those who were of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blicketis for forcing uipon us the business of making a cede of derfer, Brown of Atheis, Brown of Carroll, Case of laws, instead of a Constitution. He should vote against Hocking, Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook all gag laws hin)self, anid if gentlemen on the other side Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Florence, Gralam, Green of understood their interest too, thev would do so. Ross, Groesbeck, Haniilton, Harlan, Hawkinis, Hen The question being on striking out, it was agreed to derson, Hitchcock of Cuyahogs, Hitchcock ofGeauga on division. yeas 55, rays not coutted. Holtties, Hootman, Horton, Humplirevil'e, Hunt, Mr HUMPHREVLLE moved further tJo hnson, Jones, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, by striking out the word " unanimous" in the reso- Manon, Masoti, Mitchell Morehead, McCorick I ution. I~ution. Nash,ash, Otis, Peck, RannSey, Riddle, Roll, Smith ofHilh Mr. CLARK hoped the amendrnent would not pre- las-4 Mr. CLARK hoped the amendmel neat would not pre- land, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Staitton, and Wilvail. It would become inoperative. It was so last iams-54. summer. So the resolution was disagreed to. Mr. MANON agreed with the gentleman from Lo- Mr. CHAMBERS moved that the Convention take rain. [ Mr. CLARK ] up the report of the Committee on Jurisprudence, The question then being on the amendiment, the which was agreed to; and said report was taken up same was disagreed to. Mr. NASH said the legal reforms of New York had The question then being on the adoption of the re- been quote,l in this Assetmbly as models for our imit:solution, tion, and he wished to exhibit a record of a suit under Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, wanted to know what the new practice in that Stite, to compare it with our was the great evil that was to be remedied by this so own. lie proceeded to read a very prolix record of a stringent resolution. judgment, which he said, wasan example of the prac Mr. GREEN of Ross, thought there might be diffi- tice under the rule of every man, statinig his case in eulties of construction under it. He proceeded to his own way. He then went on to compare the pracstate a few of them. tice in Ohio, wibh th-it under the present system in The question then being on the adoption of the re- New York. solution, Mr. NASH proceeded to draw a parallel between Mr. HARD demanded the previous question, which that practice and our own. was sustained by five members rising. Our ancestors came to this county with strong feel Trhe question then being, shall the main question ings of dislike against the code of civil laws. It was be now pnt? their boast that they brought to this country the cornt Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays, mon law of Etigland, with its guards atid its sowhich were ordered, and resulted-yeas 51, nays 46, curities of liberty, atid human rights. They were as follows: aware of the abuses and corruptions that existed under YEAS —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, the civil law. They knew that under that system of Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Case of Licking. Cha- procedure, it was beauty and gold that won the cause, ney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gil- rather than right and the justice of the cause It was lett, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, the juries of the common law mode, that intervenedto Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Hu-nter,Jones, King, Kirk. prevent this flow of corruption into England. Under wood, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Morris, McCormick, the civil law, the Judges were tryers as well of the fact 324 OHIO CON \VENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 15. stitution, making it an indictable offence for members of the General Assembly to disobey the instructions. of their constituents. Referred to the coimmittee on M1iiscellaneous Siu,jece and Propositions. Mr. HOOTMAN presented sundry petitions frou, J, L. Andlerson, Daniel Sigler, Wrin. Hughes, and ot-e hundred and fifteen oh-lcr citizens of Ashland county, praving that a clause be inserted in thle new costitttiol plrohibiting the Legislature from passing any-law, legalizinn traffic in spirituous liquoirs. Mr. LOUDON presented a petition front MItrion Johlnson andt twei.ty-five other citizens of Bronvi countv, ou the same subject. Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from Ira Difmant an d one hundred and thirty-one other citizens of Clermont county, on the same subject. Mr. EWART presented a p(,tition front Tlhomas Thomas and sixty-three other citizens of Washington coutlty, on the same subject. Saicl petitionis were severally referred to the select committee on the subject of retailing Ardent Spirits Report Number One of the coitn:mittee on Ptlblie Debts and Public Works wvas read the third ti;me, and On motion of Mr. SMITH of Warren, laid Oil the table and ordered to be printed. Mr. MiANON moved tIiat the convention take up tho report of the standing committee onl Jurispirudeiice; which was agreed to. The question being oil striking out a part of the 4til and 5th lines ofr said report, M,'. HOL'f' concluded his remarliks, in favor of the - reformation in the practice of tle law. He read fronl the code of procedure in Newv York, to show that the reforn) did not necessarily do away wtth stattutes o' limitation. Mr. COLLINGS had his apprehension of the effectof the amendmpent if it should p revail. t1e should-, in case it did prevail, vot e a gainlst thhole whole leport. Thi(-e e r wer others who wnou!d agcainst the report, i f the amendment should be adooted-wlho, if it shouldl not be adopted, w ould do otherwise. -le tlhought the report ought not to be jeo)ar(lized in this mnaniner. He t hought, also, db the effect of tle amendment woul( be unfortunate, in regard to the persons ate o wBeuld.n take offiRe under the cornmiss; ono. Mr. CASE [of Lic kin g, ] wa s in favor of thli e rno-l tioni, whe(i originally made; but as its prevailing would jeopardize te amoptioni of the rep ort itself, h le f elt coinstrMiSieed to vote ag;ai cst it. Thle question being oni tlhe, amendment, Alr. HOLMES demanded tli veas aind nlav.ys, wl'ice were ordered, aIid resulted-yeas 38; nays 5,6, as fol YEAs-itessrs. Bl,ir, Cabiill, Case of Iocking, Chane(y, Farrt Forhes, Gillett, Gfray, Greciie of Defian-ee, (-'rvgg, Hard, Hawkins, Hol,ties, lIott, IHootmanli, tl.l:t, Hun jlter, L'rslh, La,-rwill, Leeel-i, Lidey, Lon(d:Io, Aai:on, Morr-is, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, R'.,) ne(y Rteeitieliti, SLeboinis, Stidger, Str-uble, Thomiipsoni of Stark, Townshend, Wilson, Woodbury and Presidenit -38. NAYs-Messrs. Andrewvs, Archbold, Barbe(, Barnet of Mcontgomoery, Barniett of Preble, Bates Bennett Blickensderfcr, Br,,wn ot Athensi, Brown (;f COi+rroll. Oase of Licking, Chambl.ers, Clarks, Coilings, Co>k, Cuirry, Cultler, D~orsey, Ew~art, Ewvinlg Fheareace, Gra' h~ama, Grteen1 of I1;ss>, Groesb ~ck, t~imhiltonl, Harllan, Henldersonl, Hitchcock of CUyaho~a,?[Iitchlcock of Geauga, Horton, I-umphlreville, Johnson~l,'Keninon Kingf, Kirkwmoodl, Ljeadbetter, MNaso-n, MitctmlIe, oerfehead, McCloud, MicCormrick, Oti~s, Pectk, Ridldle, Ro~ll Scott of Harrison, Smithl of Higfhlandse, Smlith of War-' renl, Smnith of Wyanodot, Startblevy, Stanton, Stilwvell as of the law, and the result was abuses without number and without remnedy. We c,annot combine the two modes of proceedingby the cornonon and by the'civil law.'lTie question which of the two is preferable, is anotlter questiot); but the propositiofn here is to cotnbine b oth, and that canniot be done. It is a mistake to say that the awyers of the ae Conven-i veantai o d are opposed to legl ref o rm. The bar of Ohio ha s ever b eet) in fav or ot judicious and salutary refarepr; arcd many valuable inprover meints h av e been the gesult. Neithe r is it true that we are behind England in legtal reforn. That may be tru e in regard to th e State of New York o, be or e their nat e constitution, but cannot be said of Ohio. On the contrary, England omight learn of us, ienLtead of we lear n of tefern. Mr. NASH theorn proceed ed to giv e a v iew of the ,ancient ad m odern practice under the com moll law aned of t h e re forms that hasve been made in Ohio, and the abuses thiat exist in New'York, und er the new bmode of p rocedure. He thought we ought to wait the trial of the system in New York, before we proceed t o adop t it. Mr. TAYLOR said there had been a commnission appointed bm the English Parli ament, which had made a r eport recoemmending ath abolition of all distinction bet ween fortes of action at lavw. Mfr. HOLT spoke in favor of le(gal reform. The genitlemac from Gallit had read a declaration said t o be drawn-i up by an eminient lawyer in New York-, at great length. He could say that under the present practice in New York, the same declaration m,wicght liav,e been drawn in far less space. He thought the people of Ohio demanided sortie reformatiioni in the lat r of remed ies in the State. They had ldutriln, h is experience, grown prolix, and he thought needed smrne curtailment. He thouy't the defect i n the sysIxiri in New York was to be attributed t to eh e 1oaste in which the new sytem had been brought into use. He had had much correspondence with emiinent lawyers iia New York, and that w%as the reason they gave for th.e difficulties which had occurred. Two things are re ired first, that the administration of jtistice should be cheap, simlple, and certaii-; and secondly, that it should be administered in so plain and in-telligible a manner, that all who see can understand it. He went into an examination of the practice in Ohio. The rernedy we proposeis this. A mai has acause of action. He may make his statement of the case; he rmay call it a petition or a declaration, or whatever b2e please, he may present this to the court; the deferdanit may answer, and uponi this issue, he may go to trial, and have his renmedy as fully atd(I completely, as if tliere were twenty formris of action at-d twice as marny sides of the court, as there are at presentt. P'(ending Mr. HOLT'S remiiarls, Mr. S1tILWELL moved that the Conven.tion adou,irrn, which- was agreed to, yeas 6'), nays niot coU nited. WEInE.t-Av, Janulary 15, 1851, Nine o'clock, A. M. I The( Conventtiori }net pursuarit to adjournment. Plratyeri bv Rev. Di-. LomI). Mr. NiOitRIS presented a petition from Joseph Mlills, praying that a clause be inserted in the new constitution prohibitinv the Legislature from passing any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors. IReferred to the select committee on the subject of retailing Ardent Spirits. Mr. HENDERSON presented a petition from Peter Humbarger and forty other citizens of Richland cotuinty, praying that a clause be inserted in the new con-. 325 'EIG'riTY-EIGF,ITII DAY. 326 0OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —WE DsNSDAY, JANtYARY~ 1.5. Swa,i, Swift, Taylor, Thonipson of Shelby, Way, turo shall obey. He agreed wit) his friend from M,)n Wi liiaims anid Wortlingtoni —J. roe, [Mr. ARcHiBOLo ] that when a few people ill a, ,) the niotion to strike out was disagreed to. towiship saw fit to ask the representatives of tite (I qeuestioni theti being on the engrossmerit of the whole people for somelhiitg, they did itot stand exactly ri~p orI"Lt iu the attitu-1e of having a right to deitiand. iti HOLT demianided the yeas and nays, which Mr. HAWKINS, did'tot fe-l coavitced by the were ordeired atid resulted-yeas 70, navs 1l, as iol- reasoning of his friends froth Geauga aitd Monroe, lows: ~ [Messrs. HITCHCOCK and AiRCHBOLT ] ~1;As —Nessrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Burnet Mr. QUIGLh;Y demanded a division of tie qups of ),,nugomtiery, Bates, Beeninett, Blair, Biickeisdei-fer, tion. Bg;'ow~ Atlicits, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Th,, question thett being o01 striking out, lieek in', Case of Licking, Chambers, hatiy, Clark, Mr. LARWILL did not like the sectiotn as it stood, ..Ullniii, Cook, Culler, I)orsey, E~wart., Ewing, Farr, anfl should vote against it. ..F iorene, Forbes, Giliett, Grav, Greene of De- Mr QUIGLEY noved to atnend thet words to be ilt ~aaite, Green of Hioss, Gregg, Groesbeck, iiard, Ilaw- stricket out, by strikitig out the word "petition," and A;,il5, Heiidersoni, iticheoei of Cuyahoga, holines, itiert the words "apply to." hol, Hoodtman, ffortoi, Hutphireviile, hunt, -lutter Mr. LARWILL would vote for the aetteidinent of Johi o,,)ii Kirkwood, Laish, Leech, Loudot, Manon, the gentleman from Columbiana. llasio, Moirehead, Morris, MeCloud, McCormic k, Not, Mr. GROESBECK did inot deem the word "peti t's, 0,on, Oc iO, Patterson, Peck, eirkin.s, Quigley, tioni" to be so very objectionable. It was anl usudi Hanuy, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, ittlli of word and had a defitite mneanling, and in his opinion, litgh'iaiid, S~,nitih of Wyaiidot, 6Lebbins, Sa lwell- was the most proper. l./cSkney;id'er Swat, Swift Thomipsonof SheIby, Mr. HOLMES -poke in favor of the atiteidmetit. Thmliiitnpoon of;,ark, Townlsend, ~ ay, Wilbon, Wood- 1he question betl,g otn tie amendment of Mr. QUto biury, VV orthiitgtoti atid Presideit —i. E:~ tie sale was tisagreed to. MA,aisMo1essia. Betinett of PIeble, Curry, Groesbeck, L The question tlt(i. beittg otn striking out, the samte Haltal, Hitchcock of Geauga, Ketinoi, Laiwill, Lead- was ditagreed to. b;e, Lidey, iuitciell, Naii, 8iith of W airen, Stati- Mr. CASE, of Li(kitig, tmoved to strike out of the ':':bery, ~; o ~ aiitd Williatit I5. first line, in the tlitrd sectioti, the word "shall," whiichi bi the Coiveritloii ordered the report to be engros- was agr~'ed to. d, atcd read tile third tithe to-morrow. SFc. 4. The people shall have Tigiht to bear arms '5'f. bA~'OiN titoved that the Uonvention resolve it- for their defettce aitd security; but standing armies lit Bi.:-' ilto C oll tiite, uhif th e w hole, og the Preambled toi; es of peace, are dangerous to liberty, antd shall ttot B i; f tliglLs, whiich was agreed to; yeas 5ti, tiay6'lot be kept up, a1d the thilitary stiall be iin strict suborili eot;itttd; atd the chair was taken by i~Ir. Siwyal iatioti to the civil power. ,pA rejol.( (f the btaild'iig Cjoititttee oil the Pre- M BROWN,or Carroll, lnoved to strike out of amiyble aindi bii of' Nigh-ts, w~as takeni up aind read the first line, the word "shall," which was agreed to. through-by the Chairman, atul the Coniumittee attr - I Mr. LEIDY moved to strike out all alter the word wa,-d~ proceede to considter -,aid r~eport, by ~sectio sI"ec,iltesc ndle,adiis.r ie hro "~k'aL~tL;.-:.We, the people of the 8rate of Ohio, "peace, iin the secontd line, atnd ittsert int lieu thereof grl'R thetu peopleitigitty God, for tile hedont O the words, "salall oe regulated as may be providel by gi-atet'ut to Ailiighity G(,,d, for our frieedorm, to ~e-c c(ire its bleattigs, atid proiliote our c,o oniiiu welfare, law." d)~ st.a~tbiish thls Cotsutuon." Mr. HITCHCOCK of CGyahoga demanded a divi.. ivir. ~V t)o)DtLJ It Y tmtovei to aittenid tite prsant- sioit of tite questiun. i by sitlili,tg out the words "people ol," aim itn- The question tliett being upon striking out, tiesame .,~~ttg thle 1oiitwitig: "the Iree WItLe tlaule Cit.Zctii was disagreed to. W?lth i,," which wa uisagrees to. S:c. 5. The right of trial by jury as heretofore used 'lec. I, reau ando paiseu. and hier-in provided shall be inviolate. be,.'2, read anid piassed. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga mtoved tostrike ouit S' c. 3.'I'lte people shall have the right to assem- the words "as ieretiore useti, atid ltereitt provided," ble, together ini a peaceable iiantier, to consult ior the Mr. GROESBECK said that the words pruposed to cotin]llin goou, lo instruct tlthcir represe-ntatives, atid ihe stricket itit were itoor rteu, by tdhe comttttee,, to ti) petitioti tile Legislature for the redress of grirv. provide or a class of cases where jury trial ittight be aUCes. deeti.ed uttitecessary-as ill petty offences. Mr. HAWKINS moved to amend the third sec- Mr. HITCHCOCK thought the striking out would tieti, by stikig out tle words " )etitloit tite Legisla.,not affect the settlement of that question. tore lor the," aito insert in lieu thereof, the words "de- But he thought time clause dang~erous, as in effect it titatid of tile L.gislaturea." woull place in the hands of the Legislature the power, Mri. HAW KINS thought it absurd for the people to by instituting new mtiodes of proceeding, to take away appear il tie guise of petltioters to their owt servatts. the trial by July. He w~~~~~oieshe toutlr theirih towdmnd erervaiare Ho wished to occlare 11)e right to riematd of titent a re- Mr. NASH thought tte words restrictive it their crrt-ii of gi ievances, whetiever ettd weriever ttey ex- effect. Thie trial by jury was to be as heretofore used. -it. That is to remnain inviolate. The otily doubt was ~ ARCIBOLDthougt thee wassome oufo-whether thils clause might tiot sattetion the practice of tvttt tttheintti o hi fien frit Mogai, Mr BIW-callittg six meit before a magistrate, or jury. W'e all ttt\' ~ ~eitittrs er usaly fw tt ttmbe, ndknow what is a trial by jury. And the santiot pro tt~~~e~~i tovitio~~~~rinsaeadesdt h erstttvso ides that this thinitg shalt remailt as it is. It puts ait jrilliot'solipeople. He thought that whett lietitioners end to the tampelitigwith tite trial by jury. lowIttit~iberadresedthenijesy f te hol pn- Mr. KIRKWOO[D inquired of the getitletnan from 1ite. soime little modesty might be exercised. Gtua M.H~tcc()i thi o enhlet lilt' H IT~ttCOCK of Geanga titonglit tite sugfges nunder the corresponding section of the presetit consti tloti of Itis friettd trom Morgan, [Mr. HAwKiNs,] a tution, by the supreite court, that aI commtfissioni of good one enough, provided lie carried it out. He three men to assess tite (tamages upton a public work could add at the end of the section, that the Legisla- was a jury and a compliance with the cottstitutiott. OIHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-" EDNESfDAY, JANIJARY 15. Mr. STANBERYI moved to reconsider the vote on Iagreeinlg to the ainenidrient of Mr. [:tUMPHPsvl.EV.LIL Mr. STANBERY was opposed togoing to the length' proposed ill the section. He would not say any thing about it in the Constitutioin, but lave it to the Courts as a rule of evidence. It was tantamnou nt to saying t.Nt there shall be no oath, in the adminiistration of justice. If we thus abandon all religious stictiotis, why ilo We say in the next line, that religion and morality are es' senitial to amood government. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE thountit the gentleman from Franklin, [MWr. STANCERv,] unduly tenacious. The they pie'use,, by an affirmation, and the laws presrb no mode, or form of the administration of ati oat[}. Mr. MASON said this aricenilinent was to work the abolition of all oaths of a judicial or olficitii character; he should be disposed to vote for the re-consideration, th-ioug h he had vot(b(b for its ad o ption. Mr. STANhBERY. The obn Hecto to t he ame netend is to take away all distinctio n i, witnesses on account of relregions belief. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. Thiat isthe object. Mr. MASON. Every ohat, however t aken, is atirect recognition of tlhe e~isteiep of a moral re-spons bility. It i, a religious test, aid bitiding upon thee. science of the individual taking it He voted f, the ion. and as it now appear ei bed,undersa byi,, t,re hensi,,ni He, thought that the amendment wcu.-d proviie, for the abolition of all oaths, antd every sp,ecies of religious tes~t for the verific-ationj of irlith. Mr. [4ITCHICOCKeof Geatga, didi Dot understand tim amendment as it appear,(t to be undei(rstood by the gentleman from Clark, [Mr MAs3N.] or the genteirlati from Fraukiin, (Mr. STANBERY( ] He did not understanid anoath as a religious test. He undterstood at religious test to be a rule which excluded a man fromi holding an office, or from being a witness, oil aecoairt of some peculiar belief or want of belief in religious matters. There is such a test in New Hampshire, where it is provided that no man shall hold all office, unless lie bea Protestant. Is it right, is it politic to exclude men from testifying, for the want of retigious belief? I would permit them to tealify, because I have found amoig them men of truth. The question then really is, shall these men be excluded from testifying. Mlr. MASON said tlvat. if be was s;t,re that the am(mndment extended no further, he was in favor of it, Mr. HITCHCOCK. A Judge may hold,he doc. trine which is opposed to a belief in future pu,-nis-h rients; but a m-an comes up as a wNitnjess. He-is4 a-.ked:-do you believe in a state of future rewards and punishinenits? He answers in the negative. He is excluded. Is this right?, -yMr. STANBERY wished to have such a ri!e as, taking men as they are, should bring every manti to such a test as should be binding upon their con —, scieuces. It is not merely to protect against irreligious en,i- but ag~ainst religious men, who need to be p laced in such a positiondar s shall bite d theiicr aomsciences. IMr. GREEN of Ross. shIow,ed that a religiouis le-st in th is country was the sanction by which the party Mur himselfE T accordink t o the reli'ious belief which Mr. HITCHICOCK of Cuyahoaa said that it might have been from the want of astuteness in the Court, that tds. senthat tohe Legislature had the, ower to declare, what notcumber of men should in all and ever!t c ase comdotit ate a jury. Mr. AHRCHCBOLD did not ungerstand the decision of the Suprene court as s-otAtlEig the question whethae mrthe three boen were a juryior not. Tte right to depute a comriiHi4ssio sd to assess damages was put upon other grounds. Mr. KIRKWOOD wanted to ithvelit some tmeans t o of a awa y with th e practice. The.uestion being oi strikeing ou the samen w a s agreed t o. 62, nays not cf hnted. Mr. H f WKINS move,] to afend the section by ad,di,ne t a t toile oiiitile following "An d,he right ol redress foI' inw uries to person, property, ir, brac t er or l t o ral i all bhesemci be ecudedy legislative eiact wrs or. HITCHCOCK o f Gear uga was afraid te htamendmcnr.o t wou l d h e restrictive in its chetr ater, instead of -enlargin~g the. botundaries of legal remedies. Mr. HAWKINS said the re w a s a large class ofeastes ciot provided for. It was these that le deired to reach. For itstanee for t h e waste of his prnopiewity by th e head of a family. Who cadn demand redress in this case? The questi on being of agreeing to the amendmi ceieent, ett e sam e was ditoa,rend to. s preenc. 6. They in te b en o slaveligu it, this state, nor ic-to bo itarn sertviii e, excetot. Io'' he reuiish mitnent of crimes.,, Nc LEECH moved t,p a ionb the section bu adding tlhe( following: "Whe enover te whaetr shet ppave of th ae wcouvicted, accor ilgto law-*' sam.e W g t s nn)n g e s ndt on anyreeigios thi aH aendmentaiiye" s the sixt oisagreed to. wsrd.c. 7 Al!; h as a tatewu b aI the pioefeai tv rilet, to wor,shiip Ai,.iffty G,(t, t,crdn o the, die,taties of thieir ownvi N'oIl'e (;. ]' tIla, ll s Itt[le I ~el l )c[ (e at o le,ill, ere(,,ri up i Rlay [>tact, of wo' -sh,all, or m,ainlain a,.., fo!i)? (,f w)'hI ~.aist is tls,. ard no l):efirnc hllI iven Yy!aw 1o a,.y rei,in to,'eyno sliall anyiv)efrw withi timeiflt ,tf.~ice~e Nbe termitv )relligiuetsall b~e reurdas ,a qu:zifical tilar a,.y o,'ht-e. Buit )'ei~i o,'a-!ity and~ J~ilowl-1 ed I: )etinLes, n~a to -oo,(t oeltet it shall t,(e t~he duty of 'le:,ia,' to [ass sui,te' le taws Iorl,,t ever-yreiosd wo,h{:a,,d to, OICI -" Ch-,-!s, and thellglSO' iu,,cl~l' Mlr HUMPHRE~VILLE moved tloamend thle isec. lion by adding,f at tile end of line 6th, the following words, "or f,-)r any other p~urpose." Mr. HUMPHREVFLLE wished to do away with all tests in relation to the elimsbelief of witnesses in ,.oaLr~s of justice. A doub~t h~ad existedi under thle )Id constitution, whIiih he desired to obviate. Mr. ORTION m-ovedi to amenid the amentdmient by insRettinjg between "other" and "purpose" the word Mr NASH stated the, reaso)n why the section was {eft as itris. fle thought it might be, left to the Gen,eral Assembly to settle the rules of the competency of witnesses. It had always been done by thiat body. ,-and it eau then be doie, ini consonance with public opinlion. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, hoped the amenidv-entito the ametdndment would be adopted. It m-Yigh~t prevent great difficulty in the m-anagemnent of religious 327 '328 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEI)NESDAY, JANUARY 15. Mr. BATES proposed the following amendment, at the end of the section add these words: "'Nor shall life be talkeni as a puniiishment for crime." He offered this to make the section consistent with itself —believinig also, as he did, that the death pealnty was enltirely unnecessary. A part of tlhe language of the section was, that cruel punislihr-ent should not be inflicted; and if lhanging a manl up biy the tieck unlil he was dead, was not cruel, he did not know what cruelty was This armendmiient was disa-greed to, ~S~ct;. 10. No tseis.oi~ shuii be hJeld t, auswe,' eiz,~ capital or otherwise infatmious crime, (except in cases of impeachmelnIlt, and in cases arisina in tlhe army and navy, or in the mliitia, whetn in actual servie int limes of war or put)lic danger, and in cases of petit larceny and inferior offences,) untless ol present ment or indict melit of a grand jury.. And in any trial in tiny court whatever, the party accused shall bt allowed to appear and defend ii) person atid with counsel-todernaid the nature and cause of the accusateotn against him, a)id to have a copy thereof —to meet the witnesses face to face, ' and to have compulsory process to procutre the'.r atten dance. Nor shall any person be comp)elled in any criminal case, to bye a witn)ess against hiinself, or be subject to be twice put in jeopardy for thle same of fence." Mr. COLLINGS proposed to anient, by striking out fromn the ninth line, the,words, "their atttendance," and inserting in lieu tlheimof, "thle attenidance of wit niesses in-i their behalf." Also, il licAe four, after the word "and," ini'ert "other." Also, ini line ten, strike out the words, "slubject to be," fi'om between the words,'be" and "twice." Wlhich ame ndments were severally adopted. Mr. SMITH of Wyandot. proposed further to amend, by inserting after the word "presentmtent," in the 4thi lIiie, the word "irnform-iationi." W'zhich amienidrmienit was lost. , Mr. RANNEY proposed fiirther to anm.end the sec ticid, by striking from the fourth line these words.: b"and in cases of petit larceny, and othler inferior of fences." Mlr. P.. said this was a most importanit innovation,, which hiewas not prepared t(o)m-ak(e. No mnan shouldt be put ul)oni his trial upon a eiminal charlge, witliout solme accusing, tribunal; for, otherwise, the power of indictmegot w-o huld have to be given to onre nian —some judicial oflicer; and that oficer mighlt be a young man -an inexperienced pr(osecutiig attorntey and this.s would be giving to such a mlan too mauch power over the liberty and reputation of the itizen. Agaiin, thi's oHecer wmoould have to be m-ade responsible for the character of tlhei indictment,lhichl he mlight bring in:: and this, if he were a modest and sensitive maI, uight iinduce him to neglect cases which should be prosecuted, iad( so the criminal justice of the coutitry might go entirely disregarded. He held that the old nsethlioc of indictinlut-by a grand jury-was the best, because they could go forward atid do their duty without fear, or any sort of inmpedim.ent. sMt. NASH said that it was not prescriled in the section that a man should be put upon his trial in allyparticular way. That was left en.tirely with the Legislature. He did not undertake to say that justice could not be better dispensed ini these minor cases c without the intervention of a grand jury, but lie adhered to the system as mnore safe and secure than any t~hing wthich wvas likely to be set ulp int its place.~l Mr. KIRKWOOD) neverl coulld see the reason why we might nlot have a final trial inl t~hese c ases of petty offences, without the intervrentionl of a grand juqy. If th1e coinstruictiou of the gentlemnan from Geauga, (M,,r. HITCHCOCK,) was correct, the aiendmend mighit "e well enough. For himself, he was decidedly of the ol)pinion that every honest mani ought to be pernit'ed to testify. Mr. MIANON was opposed to the reconsideration. He tl-ought the amendmilent weent just as far as was i,-cessary. Ile was opposed to all religious tests whatever. He would not believe a liar, because he believedl iii the existence of a God. fI ORTON moved that the committee rise and rep,rn, w hich was agreed to; and the committee rose, asd te cai rman reportet the ra port h a tie ad under co31sideration the report of the Staniding, Comnmnittee on the Preamiible P,and Bill of Rights, aind had comiie to nio resoluti,on thereon. O., iloioni of }lr. TltouPsoN of Shelby, the CoI1ven,tion took a recess. On motion of Mr. THOMPSON of Shelby, the Conveition agaili resolved itself into a Comtmittee of the Whole-Mr. SAW YER in the Chair —and resumed the considerationII ot'f the report of the Conmmittee on the The Chairman said when the C(mnlitt-, rose, the pending questiou was uponi Mr. STANBERY'S mot ion to reconsider the vote by which Mr. HUMPHRE V-ILLE'S amendmenit to Sec. 7, was adopt,d,inse,ti tg at the end of the 6ill line the words, "for any other civil purpose." A nd the question being now taken upon this motion, it was rejected. Mr. R FEMELIN proposed further to amend the 7th sertio,by strikintg out from the last ofthelOth l ine these eors: ",ansd to encourages chool and the mean s of i.:struction." Mr. REEMELJN desired to strike out these words, because the matter was to be provided for in another part of the Constitution; and l)ecautce the language (wlhichl was copied from the old Conistitution w, ) was found to be ambigous and of different constructioll. The,notion was lost. IVM...THOMPSON of Shelby proposed further to eimeld tlie 7tla Section by striking out from t he 4th line ihe words, "against his consent," so th a t the clause will read, "No maan shall be compelled to attend, erect, or stupport a pny place of worsh ip, or maintain aimy form of worship." EIe n ade th is motion because it implied an absurdity in t he lalgage-e supposed E could enot be very %%ell compelled with his consent. This amendment was agreed to. 55lr. BARN ETT ofPreble proposed further to amend tlhe sectioni by strikinig out the word,Legislature," and in.sertinig the words, "General Assembly." .TIIis "as also agreed to. -"SEe. 8. The privilege of the writ of hibea,- corpus shall. not be suspended, unless, in cases of rebellion oy ilvasion, or the public safety mnay require i t." alr. CASE of Licking proposed to amiend by striking out from the first lint- of this section, after the words "vf.' the words "the writ of." WVhlch was disagreed to. ~ "Se 9. All persons sh-all be bailable by suffiient -sureties, unless for capital offe'nces, where the proof is (%wident, or the presunmption great. Escessive bail sliall- Dot be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel or unusual punishments inflicted." AFTERNOON SESSIO'. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. PREAMBLE AND ]DILL OIV RIGHTS. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WWEFNES)AY, JANUARY 15. pensive, and certainly unnecessary. With reference to the protection of character, which -was insisted porn bu the genitleman fromn Preble, (Mr. BA.INETT,) the committee found som-te difficulty; but, at last they felt that the matter might be safely confided to thee Legislature, and tlheir decision turned very much upon the fact, that such a provision would indu ce a great saving of expense. Mr. MASON proposed e furtler to amend the matter propose d to be stricken out, by striking out the words "petit larceny and inferior offenices," and inserting,, these wfords: " such immoral practices and i -ferior offeMncs as nay be prov ided for b y law." Mr. M. consid e r ed that this proposit ion would meet the objection of those who w,re opposed to retaiing the words "petit lare"niy," because the class of crines so denominated, sometimes mount up to the standard of very grave offences. Aud lie would suggest, that the Le,-islature ought to declare stealth not above the value of $5, to be petit larcenv. Now it extended to $,35; and then thelegislature might provide for the puinishlnent of persons guilty of this lower grade of petit larceny, without resorting to a grand jury. He considered that tl,e Legislature might be safely trusted with this discretion, and that they might provide aimply for the trial and puniishlnenlt of all these petty offeYnces, without the cumtibrous machinery of a grand jury, and a soleinii irndictmnen-t. The exceptions which are here in the section included in parentheses, were as mandatory as any part of the Constitution. As to these cases, the Legislature would have no power to direct that they should be prosecuted by indictment;. He sup po,sed that this entire class of cases would be punlishable wNvithouit the intervention of a Grand Jury. Ma. NASH, objecting to the amendment of the gentileman: fromi Clark, (Mr. MASON,) said: immiioral practices iwere not now legal subject matters of indictmnenit and trial by jury: and he showed that the words "inferior offences" might be construed as having referenice to the same class of offences mentioned before ill the section, and which were now triable by a grand jury. So that the ami-enidmiienit would effect nothing 'iore than to mtake that a constitutional point, which had 22rownx up in practice under the old constitution. Mr. MASON then asked and obtained leave to transpoa( the words which he proposed to insert, so that they would read: "Sucih inferior offences and irmmiijoral practices as ma2a be provided for by law." Mr. RANNEY demanded a division of the qiiestion. And then the committee refused to strike out. So Mr. MAsO-N's amendment was rejected, and the question recurred upon Mr. BARNETT'S amendment, proposing to strike out the words "petit larceny and." Which was also rejected. The question now recurred upon Ml. RAN-,-;,'' amendment, proposing to strike out the words "and in cases of petit larceny,. and other inferior offenrces.' Mr. HOLT moved to atmienid the words proposed to be stricken out., by adding at the end thereof these words: "and wherein the person accused shall plead guilty before all exam-inling court or ma~gistrat~e." Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. Our present Constitlltioll, uponl this sulbject, reads, in these'words: "No per son shall be pult to answ,5er anly crimzinal charge bult by presenltrent, indlictm~ent, or impeachmnelt." No3 mlatter what wias the napture of the criminal charge — whether it were of a greater or less, degree of turlpitude, the person could not be plut to ans*wer till he was inldictedl or presented: and he supposed that it was ill this views of the case, that the gentleman from Clark, (Mr. MASON-,) seemed to consider that a law Mr. RANNEY was willin_ to vote for a reduction of the number of the grand Jury, or to admit of preseitment and trial without a grand jury, in cases where the liberty or life of the accused were not involved. Mr. KIRKWOOD objected to the grand jury system onii account of its expense. He would he glad to see all cases of assault and battery, sellng liquor without license, and all petit larceny, disposed of before a justice of the peace; and if the judgnneint of the magistrate should happen to be wrong, let a writ of error, or a certiorari, go up to the common pleas. Mr. BARNETT of Preble. Was not the character of an individual as much at stake if he were charged witlh stealing a pen knife, as if he were charged with stealing a horse'? Mr. KIRKWOOD thought the question of character was as much inivolved in the one case as in the other. But he did cnot think it any part of the object of criminal law to protect character; the object w'as rather to protect the property of the citizen. But was it good policy to expend $200 in order to protect an interest of the value of six and a-fourth ceuts? Why could we not have as fair a trial of these smaller offences before a justice of the peac,,? Mr. BARNE'I'T. Because the Legislatulre can make just such laws upon the subject as they please. Mr KIPIKWOOD. Practicallv, the prosecuting attorney low attends to all the business of presenting these cases. But there might. be created a court of three justices of the peace, to say whether the accused should be bound over, and then let the prou secuting attorney make out his indictment, without the intervention of a grand jury. Why would not this answer for the inude of determining cases of small offences? Mr. RANNEY. It would only cost about three tines as miuch as the process of indictment by a grand Mr. BARNETT of Preble, moved to amend the words prot )osed to be strickenii out, by striking out the words, "petit larceny and." Mr. B. said with an honest, upright, high-miiinded nan, the quiestioin of chaiacter saas the princiiipal thing, and hlie wished to be protected from any abuse of power which the legislature might exercise in this matter. Hle wished to mnake it secure, that the trial should be the same, and as full and fair, for all iiife-c rior offences, as for the mnost infamnous offences. Mr. HOLMES was opposed to striking out. He h a d no special partiality for Grand Juries. The exaniiations before thei -were always of an exparte character, frequen tly very frivolons-always very expensve. But if they constituted a tribuial before which cases could be fairly investigated, hle would not object to the expelnse. Mr. GROESBECK said the standing committee had some difficulty io coming to a conclusion upon this matter, before they finally fixed upon the words reported. It was believed by the conrmnittee that the Legislatuie awould not abuse this discretion. No doubt there were a great imiaiiy cases ini petit larcernv, for the tuial of which the law should make provision, with out sending them before a grand jury. It frequently occurred when a iian had committed petit larceny, that he was ready.ind anxious to pleadguilty. But that, according to the law, would avail him nothing. He would have to go to jail, and lie there till the grand jury should sit, and then, perhaps, come at last, to his trial, and be sent again to jail. There were many guilty persons, who would be glad to acknowledge their crime, in the first instance, and get through with it at once. In all these cases, the intervention of the grand jury and the going to jail were very ex I I i i .1 I I i 329 330 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WBDNESDAY, JANUARY 15. The question was now taken on Mr RAN-'~Y'S amendment., and it was rejected. And then, on motion by Mr. CASE, of Licking, the whole of Section 10 was stricken out of the report. "SEC. 11. Every citizen may freely speak, write and publish his sentime ls on all subjects, being re spoitsible for the abuse of the right; and no law shall be passed to restrain orabridge the liberty ofspeech or of the press. In all criminal prosecutions or iidict melits for libels, the truth may be given in evidence to thejury; and if it shall appear to tihe jury that the mat ter charged as libellous, is true, and was published with good motives and for justifiable ends, the party shall be acquitted." Mr. HAWKINS proposed to amrnend this section,by striking out from the 6th, and 7pli, lines, these words: "and was publi she d w ith good motives, and for t ustifia ble ends." Mr. H th ought it w ould be at ve ry difficu lt matt,r, in cases of libel, to dec ide what the motives were. Sul posing the Jury were t o finvd t hat the words alleiedi in the libel were true, th e next thin g, under this )rovis ion, would be to equire wheher ther e moti ves andt oes for which they wer e sp oken or published, were justifia ble. He considered tnat this language wa s Ipardily jus tifiabl e in the c onstitution. Mr. NASH said,that thesem wor ds ough t not to be stricken out: although. lie a,dmitted, the question was not void of difficulty. As the law stoo d blow, in a lit)el case, the truth could not be given in evidence, by the defendant, unless it were of a public character. In any ar,icle of a newspaper, sai to be libeloned, if the individual acffe( ted, be not a public character-it fie be the keeper of a hotel, o aseor a l ior estabiislrlelt, the truth could not be given in evidence. Such was the decision of the Massachusetts courts, and it was prac tically so understood here. He was unwilling to open the door for private iiiju ry, to the extent proposed in this arnenldment. If the charge (ould Dot be productive of public good, then the individual ought not to be allowed to prove it. The amendment was rejected. "Src. 12. No person shall le liable to be transport ed out of the State for any oflenie omminted within the same." Mr. GROESBECK moved to strike out the words "liable to be,"iii tile first lipe,,"wlichl was;agreed to. Mr. SMI I'H of Wyati(iot proposed fu rther teatrmenid the section, by striking out the words "commii,itted within the samne," in the last line. Thi's motion wos lnst. SEc. 13. No person shall ill timie of peace, le quar tered in any house, without the consent of tlhe owner; nor-in time of war, except in the manniier prescribed by law." Mr. HOLMES proposed to amend this section, bv strikiing out from the first line, the words "in lirne of peace," which was lost. ' SEc. I4. The right of the people to be-secure in their perQoI1, houses, papers and possessions, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated: and no warrant shall be issued but upon probable cause, supported bv oath or affirmation. particularly describing the place to be searched and the person and things to be seized." Mr. OTIS; proposed to amend byv striking out from the 5th1 line the word'and," and' inlsertinlg tile word nor" iln its place. This motion gwas agreed tos. Si:c. 15. "sNo pergola shall be imprisoned for debt, in any civil aictions onl roeisue or fitiall process,unlless ill cases of fraud." Mr. MANON proposed to amend this sectionl by striking out the worthy "on rolesue or final process, unless in cases of fraud." which would compel the person to answer without indictment or presentment, was unconstitutional. The question was, whether, under this provision of the Constitution, any evil had been experienced; and if so, was it best to apply the remedy? What had bee n the con sequences? Wphy, for everTy l ittle, petty offence, the sindividual ha te 6 nd to b arrailes before twhe Court of Common Pleas, a grand jury had to be erji pann elle d and sit upon the case, arndi then h e had to stand his tyrial by a traverse jury-all this formality an d expens e in a case of the most triflindg a mount. Every criminal offence nas put upon the sani e foot iag in this respect, wi th homicide and p er jury all w er e put upo n the same footing, in practiceu. T hey all kneew, ithat, in consequence of this practice, costs had accumulated to an enormous amount in all the counties. He a lso referred to the hardships induced in cases where th e individual was desiro us of pleading guilty, which was intended to be met by the amendmenot of the gentleman fromi Montgomery (Mr. HOLT.) It was a mhatter of fact, that there had been no more clamor against any clause in the C onstitution t ha n against this; andhe had no doubt but that th e pe ople of Hamilton counlty had exper ienc e d its evil effects more ilane t he people of any o ther county in the State; because of th e en orm ous amount of costs which it was cowt st::ntly running up, whichl had to be paid,by thecrim ial, if he were able, but if not, by th e county. N ow t he object was to remi-edy this evil. Was there any danger iln applying this l emedv? He could see none at all. It could not be suppoosed that there would be so li ttle discretion in the Legislature, that th ey could not apply the reme dy properly. The proel. T ob ability was, that thev would require persons accused of petit larceny to be indicted before they could be put upon trial. Buthlie did nott think, that cases of assault an d batt ery ought to be so guasded. He thoughtl, that, i ns t ead of binding them down to all the formalities required by the present Constitution, a l ittl e latitude might be safely extended in these cases. It woul d be far better that nine-tenths of these petty offences should be trie d vheln they spring up than that the whole coundty should be put to trouble and expense about them. He certainly c ould not have any odjectio tn to the proposition of the gentleman from Clark (Mr. MASON;) but it, seemed to him that the sanoe t hing was proposed by the Stalnding Compmittee and he was cvillin, to vote ifor it, belierving that it would be an imprbovement upon the present pra ctice. Mr. RANNEY now withdrew his amendmtent, in order to give place for the amendment of Mr. HOLT. And the question being on the latter amiendm-tient, Mr. HITCHCOCK, of Geatiga, said the effect of this amendment would be, that, in everv case, however trivial, where there was not a plea of guilty, all the formalities of an indictment muist b)e observed. The question was now taken on fir. HOLT s aimiendmient, and it was rejected. Mr. RANNEY then renewed his motion to amend by-striking out the words, "and ill case of petit larceny, and other inferior offences." Mir. STIDGER said, whenevser it wvould be in order, he desired to move to strike oult the w ords proposed' t,o be removed by the gentleman fromn Trumbulll (Mr. RANN'EY,) and to insert at thle end of the secttuf,li th(f se wo~rds: "Providedl that the General AssembilyT may provide bylaw for the trial and punlishmenlt of petit lateenl and other inferior offences, by other metans than by indictmient." This amenldmnett explained itself. It would obviate all difficulty, as it seemed to himn. for redress And such a law held( wve,r tlie lheadls f the er hel~i by iii(livitlials or corporalliots. off-,liers, would very much restrain them from- col- Ref,rrl( to tlJe Staiiliitig Coiiitlltee tii'JFinance and mittilug such trespasses. These men understood the |',x,ttlioI." law, anlt felt secure. Thiey kltew, that, uiless th RI,e,port nutnb,r one of the Stan'iing C-mrnittee on owner ca;nie will at writ of replevin, they could take Jurisprudetice, was reaod tie tiiirl lime ian, i,assed. off lis property with itilii)puiiity, antI, in tn lly cases, thle Mr. MAN()N ilV-.l, that tlt, article b refe,,rreod to property c,ud tle offetder were out of tlhe reachi of tl,e the corniiiittee 11 -'EiErollineit, Revisioii aijd Arraingeowner, bef)re lie could get out his writ and start with i nent." l is officers. Whicli wa agreed I to. He hadl also kiowt a great many malicious, evil Mr. BLICKENSD,EPFEP, move(i to take, up the minded p[c,sons, who would coinmnit trespasses e[poii tile Report i,f thle Stai,lilig Co)imiiiittee oil'"tIe Ex —cuttve property of t,hie ir eiglibors, lor the miere ptirpose of i Dpartiieit. doilg lnisclief-feelitig tecure in so doinlg, l)ecause Which was;,ree,d to. tiiey knew tihem —elves to be irrespoiisible in dainages, Mr. McCOR.1ICK (nov d(i a call of the Cotiventian, and( that tiey could not be irprisoned. and beiii oriered iMe,ssrs Arlibold, Broji of Altlens, The fact was, that our present law upon this subject Ev;art, Griiain, Green of Rss, Groesbeck, HitchturuLed loose upol so(iely, a large IuLiuber of itidi,vi(i- cock, of Ctlyaioga, Hol(lies, Liolt, Ltvrrence, Ioll, uals, with no) character to sustai,', and 110no property to Sellers, Smrnith ot Higlilanii, Silwell Tliorn)sotJ of answer in danage.s, alid unless this class of trespases Shlelby, Vatice, Warr-,anid Wilsoji were found abwere madle criTiti.al audl putisfiable by iinprisoiimeiit, Senlt. (as in some other Stat-s it was the case,) the people Oii motion of.Mr. MITCHEILL all ot.ler proceewiiild be elitirely unsafe. (lings uider tie call were dispeiised. with. He was iin favor of no imprisonment for mrnere debt, T'he quetsLioll then briug oli thle passage of the reexcept in cases,f fraud port. Mr RANNEY, in or(der to perfect the section, Mr. LEADBETTEP. moved that thh bill be recommoved to strilke out the words "'for debt." mittee to tile Standilig Coiiiiiiittee onil thle Executive The, question beiiig now taken upon Mr. HtumPHRE- Dpartiient. VILLEF,'S motion to sti ike out thte whole of sectiou 15; Sotie coiiv rsatioii Ullon the stbjeCt of the recon. and, the same being agreed to, the section was stricken mritrileot, anli its eff-cts. took plI(-e between Messrs. out accordingly. Leadbetter, Kirkwool, Sitiiti of Warren, Huiiiil)ire "SSec 16. The levying of taxes by ihepoll is grievous atnd ville, Ri(dle, lttisii aiio otlers. oppressive and the same shiall not be done for state and q county purposes." soulity purposes." - t'h~~Tie qu,'stiol thenl bei~~ ol] thet reucororrit enit t of the Mr. ARtCHIIBOLD riovad to animend this section, b y report, t sI was tree( to, adding the f,llowini: Mr. LEECH inquired if it would be iieorderto mnove "-Riorlilfl.o1eq11&em. hei:.,:., at, elly for the keepins of thle to itnstru(ct thle ci,i,,ltee. peati, fij- the) esei-valioli tf s o:'ia order, andl fir the i(etit e T'lie PRESIDENT' was of the ofpinion that it would of so.iety taxation, olgIht I' to e strictiy co.'i:inedl to thie prIomi b.io of these o'.je,cs. The taxa:ion ecesa- to pay the a'elis esloyitlel it keeri Mr. LEECHI then inov,,d to instruct the conmmritthe peatce, asil li plo,,llole sorial,,l'er i ly the lnoy illtr-t io',f f tee as follows: yot. is rioltfil ai1i "1ier. a,d ini acco-Ia-(,e witi lie i i.ti- First-SIrike the words Lieutenant Go,vernor out of pies of the socat ceont, ra-I. le, o''tti, c~cia! e,)n~ i~a~.tthe first s ec,tioni. But,o levv taxt-s t-o ea'ry ov'-emro, r ilt' it,ariss, aI a!Ise of (he taxitrl,oo'vr a- ta t'falll 1), the so:i-let elltra,:t." Secondly-Strikti out the Eleventh section and in Mr. LOUDON would like to hear the geitieman's set iII lieu thereof tlhe following: reasons for laying down so broad a ilatforml. t li t i,;a,l.,lI Iet,li itilt. ie ier t le -le trova' of TheG,~w'o t'ro — t}it,.lh S;c.kr otf the,'al Mr. HITCHCOCK of G,-auga, said tthat in order to iex e rlise e ofi,.e Gt G u V{.ro', u til lie tle a.qiitiet, or give the getltleriaii fromn Monroe a fair opportunity to tilt a,iotiei- G,ler,,or shaiai tie duil3 iuaielii te r aIe os oltite discuss this abstraction, hie would move trat the Com- in,leae lill e., Ile S,81takei- otii ire, il.e, o, l(is,!ea'l, reiiiival mittee rise; which was agreed to. tiO0C,e.sigilati.lor O.elsie rooit.ae, the S eaker f OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, JANUARY 16. the H:ise of R. preseetative. shall sii'eed to the offi-e, aed ex- of Lieutenant Governor. He had done so because it erii-e itie ties thetel iila Gvli slalt e ~td ai was one to which our people were unused, aud one qe~ ~ ~~~a. ~if ~for which few, if aiv, of them had petitioned. It is Mr. LEECH Tile whole object of my motion, true it makes provision for corntingencies which mnay Mr. Presidenl, will be readily discovered by all. The occasioially happen The Senate naynotbe ablein m~~~~~~~~~~~~occaionai illyj hapn Tois,rtthe Seiinatte t o y sotb able in motion is simptly to is ructtheconlmittee to so ameid Idependently of somne such officer. inmmediately to or their report as to dispense with the office of Lieutei gatuize and proceed to business. Butt such coitinen ant Goverior. cy had but once occurred in the history of the State, I consider this office entirely unnecessary-that its and- liht;beprovided for by some more simple and incumnbent would be a mere sinecure. What, sir, is economical provision In a petition presented b the argunment which has been adduced in favor of the myself a few days ago, it is asked that the per diemn of creation of tlhis office? It has been contended here, memibers of the General Assembly, be withheld until ;lat "ile " ist,,"ai zi-,g:cetie" wlhicii occurred in our thev organize. Again, it has beeln pioposed, that ei State Senate, last winter, furnishes a sufficient reason Iher House slhould-be called to order bv some Execu why we should have a Lieutenant Governior in this tire officer, or the oldest rmember of the body, who State. rThis is the principal, and ii) fact, almost the shouldl preiside until an election of officers was held. only rfasoon that has leen urged by the aivocates ofthe And it has been sigg,ested that, should tw-o iindivid iewv office, in favor of its creation. The argument uals receire anl equal'nutiiber of ballots for Speaker, may be all sufficient to satisfy tile nitids of geiltlemten owing to an equal division of pairties, and neither of in this chambt-r; but it has utterly failed to work con- them be wlilliing to give way, the contest mlight be de viction in rmy rmintd. Woul(d it be wise and politic to cided by lot, after a given number of ballotiugs had create this pcrmatieit office, for the purpose of provi- taken place. ditig for a mere contingency of that kind-a coutin- Again, the office of Lieutenant Governor provides get cy that has occurred olyv once since the com- fior a vacancy, vlwhichl may occur bythe death or'resig triencenietit of tlhe State Government, and which may nation of the Governor. But, such vacancies have tiever again (oecur? I thinlk iot. Onr the contrary, I occurred not more than two or three tiiles since the am convinced that it would be the very reverse-that it adoption of the Constitution, and as our electionis fir would be unwise iand impolitic in the extreme. To Goverrlor are biennial, but for short periods, and the use a homtely adage, "the cure would be worse than dties of the office, so far as I ai-i apprised, were twell the disease." perforited by the Speakers of the Senate, w ho were Sir, I arr in favor of "a light atid simple Govern- elected to pi(eside over that body with express refer ment." I shall, therefore, oppose, as far as rnv infli- euce to such a continenticy. And now I ask, is it etice and my vote will exlenol, the creation of this un- ise, in view of these facts, to make permanenit pronecessary officer-tthis mere sinecure, that is proposed visionl by ani additional salaried officeil, for contiugento hi. quartered upoi) the public Treasury, to aid in ties, which, judging from the past, nust nece,sarilybe eatitig out the substance of the tax-ipaying peoplle of few and far betw{een, anld of short duration? It seems Ohio. to me, sir, in medical parlaice, the remedy would be Mr. BENNETT said he supposed that the olbject of: worse than the diseasec-the remedv would be perinati}is amendment was rierely to abolish the office of! rent,'While the disease would be but teiporary. Lieultenant Governror. If such was tIe. case, lie want- A few davs ago, wlieni the report was before us, the edi to know what the gentlemant would d) with tie very qualifie(d veto, wiith vwhich it was proposed by Lietntetaiit Gov, rioe provided in the fifteentlih section? the comimiittee to invest the Goveitior was stricken Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga saidl, thit as it was oult. In that vote I did niot coictir, as it leaves our mnerely a question whether we should liave a Lieutet- I Chief Execiutive Officer precisely where he is now, dianLt Goverti)or or not, hlie would demand the yeas and i vested of alhost all power atid pattonage,.and iiicaIIayS upoi it. I pable of exerting ariv efficientt check on the Legisla MNlr. LEECHI said, his amendment was drawn up tive Departnentt,. And now, sir, since that step has /iastilv anrd lie t!lad overlooked one thing He now I been taken, I cannot consent to place two 0men of 'oved to amend his insltructiois by providing to strike w straw at the helm of State-men who are mere slhadout the fifteenth sectioni, va iich was agreed to, utatiii- o|-ws. To my taste, one is mnore than sufficient. To mously. borrow thec classic allusion, so often used by the geti Mr. RIDDLE hoped the question would not be; tletiiaii from Monryoe, (Mr. AncinBOLD,) I cannot consent oe)ftied again. It liad been debated both at Coluitibus to introduce a God onl the stage, uh-lie there is no and Ihere. nexus, or knot to be severed, for which Omnipotence Mr. M.ITCHELL had become alarmedf at the great only is adequate. numtiber of (,flices we were creating. He had origilnal- Should the proposed office be created, I need not ly been in favor of re-atiting this office, but on rrflec- speculate oni the political prospects before us They tioi had been induced to think it un)tiecessary. will develope tlhet-selves in due season. I can imag Mr. MANON was opposed to the creation of the ince the coalition between different sections of the office. State, to secure the inoinittations for Governor and Mr. WORTHINGTON had ever been opposedl to Lieutenant Governor; the disltinct embodiment of difthe effie of Lieutenant Governor. He }lad voted ferent shades of interest and opinion in these two inagainst it recently, in a very lean minoritv. He look- dividuals, and their conubiied efforts to secure their ed upon it, to use the expression once em ployed in re- electioi, by dividiug the labot of stumping the State, lalion to the creation of the office of Vice Presideiit of as suggested to us by the genitleman from Knox, (Mr. the Utited States, that the inest tirojper title of such ail MITCHELL.) But I will n1t push these political speeofficer would 1e, His most sitperfluous Higlitess. ulations firther. "Sufficienti for the day is its evil." Mr. MORRIS hail from the beginnitutg been opposed Mr. LILTC IICOCK of Geauga, said, tit we might to this itinovatlon. He had moved to strike it out in if we were so disposed, dispetnse with the Goveritor. Committee of the Whole but had failed. He looked There would be as much propriety in dispensitig with tljion tlhe officer as about as useless asthe fifth wheel of the office of Goverinor. as of that i,f Lieuteiatit Govera wagon. Inor. The Presidetit of the Senate, or the Speaker of Mr. HENIERSON spoke of the position he oceu- the House of Represetitatives night exercise the office pied. He had voted against the creation of the office of Govertior. Geitileiseti talk of the expense of the 332 vile, Hunter. Jotlisoin, Jones, Larsh, T,ealbetter, Lidtey inorciiiiale, OI1 acC'ti-so U1 i' l tx z Illf,, s>, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, McC('loud, McCormickl, Nsh, has i undlertaken. Thle enorimons p.tronage that has ~Norris, Orttion. Otis, Patterson. Hainey, Riddle, Sawye i been the result of this s,ystem, has oarnied party spirit Sixitti'li of tli,hlicd, Sfixit~i of Wsn'-mith of Iyaxidot, to a fearful height, andl caused a l)rad strecisi of cor,qtanberv, Stanrton, Ste,biis. Stilwels, Stlcklney, Stidber, o Swift, Taylor,'b'honpison of Shelby, Townishend. Wvay, ruption to flosw through the leigth and breadth of WVilliiams ant V'oodb,urv —6'. the lan1d. We want to retxi n to the pu-e and sinmple So the Convention refused to adopt the in struc- dard o e tyi d to tk y thse eo tions. iyilous encourareimeiets to corruptini. Mr. HOLT moved furth-er to iinstruct the committee Thexe is aix attelmpt here on this floor, to bring ileli The reisantg dafferept iherest and this floor, t o tbing men, by requiring themr to insert in thi. first section, after replsentingdiffereit interests all (iifteront toistituthe word "A uiditor," the word "Comptroller." (Is,to sipport the sameset of )riciple —piciples .,-Vielicres-i,to )supr theysam~er sear of airicips-pigiic pilesi. Mr. I-I Li' said(, he was willing to adopt the sug xc pe1 tey nvr d of alt.olg their COiI Iwhich perhaps. th yNerhadow ao n gsil toheirt co~ gestioli of thle gentleman from GCauga, (Mr. HITCH-I t t psble to rg sixty e cocK,] to rnodify his motion, so that it shlould redd of diffoelent(coll ttultiis of mind and e(lucntiiii, toall "such olller offices as may be i)rovided for by law." t k prec;tly alke ould tll tl';; getlee thikprcsl alike. Hle of*Cales the lf ll ate lie ieigient li.,; He tllought such power stiould be left to the Legfisla- cot of Crl th iit afte le sige is tur,re, and that it outhLrt to be in its ixaxids. I crown. It is said that iii lii retiremieil- hi' itteiiipt(d to regular e,twe.,lvel~watches tos ~o'ilrcstyhsm Mr C H A M B RS was opl:)osedi to holtl) thle m otio to I seguletfoutweldi w itheos to, a0 iid prtci.ixly thet nne aui( the modification. He didl isot want to put it ill the e ful it ipiI( a le yat ) power of the Legislatire to mnultiply offleers If Span, (i x aid tle li(1lie, was fored tok Spoaled,e- it, liea coola(1noiid ot l liis,' een lie tsvove iiiathey hiad thle ower, they would doubtless exercise it Ine He did not understand the differedxce between Auditor chi to act eactly - il io. Ii this ie I;rl(d a lesson, anid l)-v it we mlay learn htt. if thiiis is so dilllaud Comptroller. -le liad su1pIosed they were tile tl,hwm h moe s ii i t bigmn act thus ,samie tlhing. lie was opposed to this eterinal cre datio n it i ti. l dl in~ ~ ~ a tme nsril a utonmatois. tLe proce~leded to speak of the of o(ffices He thoulght ic would stink in the nostrils I asntie2 uautomatodsios Be puloce ded t the of tlurse of the peolilld(rsils f tl) ul)li, ple cose Mr. BENNETT moved tha;t the Convention resolve p,x. uedlb itne soilet of the Coiveutioi. Mr. RIEb'lMELIN wislied to ask his frieinil fromin itself in to Coininittieeof the Whole, which was agreed Mrt its~~~~~~~~~~~~~ealf iioCitit,,o loW,I, i d M roe ( Vlr-. ARICItBOLI),) whelhei(r exempting fromt taxto; and the chlair was taken by Mir. SAwrERf. The re ation wa ( no As exeoo i) whethoref —txatlilg fau) tatx}ort utider considleraition,was that of the Standing Com- sot as sevee ioi t taxaoi awy di l~~~~~~~~on~~~rc umode kiiiwiini to he law There' are ntow ini Olaio itittee on thle 1rearniible'nd Bill of Rights. I et,i inllios ofodcdt lli are lawm fo fifteen mnillli-ns of railroad stock which are exeml)t fromt COMMITTEE OF T HE WHOLE. taxation. The question being on the imeildament to section i6, Mr. ARCHBOLD was as rea dy as tlihe gentleman to offered )v Mr AnCHnOLDs vestertlav. go fior the taxation of raili, imds. Mr. ATRCi )BOLD, said the principles of this amend- Mr REEMELIN. Thle gn(itleiman's proporsition d,)es meunt had already been elmuch discussed. The object not go far eolul. We aIet io daiger friom laxaof the a,mendment is to declare tlie first principles of 1 tion to build puiblic Mworks. It is in anioullther qoarter. goverll-neit. It is in suibstance, that overniioent is He desired olilly to put a little more truth ij-to the an agent for the preservation of the peace and the pro- geotlemanl's propositoll. tectionll of the citizer. It is said that a frequenit re- 3Mr. TAYLOR waished to sav a few words in relacurreoce to first principles is necessary. Now there tion to the reinarks of the gen.tleman fromn Meirllloe, is no doubt but it is thoe eIsleness of men, that frequenitlv tiade in relation to the public press of the drives them into societv. Mr. iladison has said: "If couoitrv. Thi piesess of t1he country is eiititlied to a men were anigels, there would be no need of govern- high rank, oul as a vehicle of newxs. As a veihicleof mellot.' The real desigrn of goverumini('t is to coiiati- opinio.n, it is xa mere refleseti,sn of the 1)ollic minid. It toite, a e in der to prevent esrt t the c lb is doubtful if it ever can be anything else. T'ake any and the dagger, for the settlemetnt of disputes. It is newspaper, and colipare it with the toile of put.blic ~t,~. t LJ 1t~t,,ut_,Jk'1, Il txe ll 11 1 [here w~as l, aiidl (elocat( e tlieiiiselves amid their clilidrenl? If anlyfittlig in the alileiidieiit,, abl)oit the public press. 11ot:, then barbarisnii is uearer the true theory of gov Itf might, affect. his vote. erl.illenit tliatit 111. boastcd civilization has ever at't'he CH AAiRMAN s~aid there was noet. taiiied. Mr.'I'CHELL sail{. it was a discussion upoll the futl ftis thielv g((es still/2fartheir; it cuts uip hv the re th of'the lemocratic patty. " r-oot.- all a, znelIi{oraitl(ios,-air(1in oe~,ns If' govenl-i Alr. ARC fi 1 ~D I-t,o~e~dee to d(,fitie~ hii, oplli-'onsI U,l(tlt has i111 riilit to raise il))or(,y to )alke' a roa,d,,' of t-lih futicti (ll aill( duties (If tile pit)Ilic press. Mr. l)ANNIEY callled the aeinolermaar from Moneitto, rr,ad')W(rin(iothier:, to do what it ha-s no right to do (Mlr. ARc-nlOLI)) to order. tie2 was wande,ring fro hi' I ~, itself I Tie -11 t ca tt r.us fer to ()t,hers no poilit i e than It itself d ane a,- ov Mr. ARCHBOLD proc(eeded. ffe had made no at- crti pwr th a t it _ irslad, it an by noatalc tipozi the public press. He iievei- iiiteiid(-,d to ernment uanoot: constructt a railroad, it can by no act do so. He had e i.igire for it. and had I, ei- p, I.wer others to do it. HI,J( thlen, by this theory, d the coIIItrv is brought to a st'1tad still, and every step intended to- array iiiiielf agailst it, as an exponen ut of of fit,Ure IIrress 1s left to indiviidal eft'oft atd e0the populer (.pill ion. tein py,pinionh, dtnmstrate the uitter Mr. NASH said. I do1 not rise so( much to acrgiue absuitrdity of the gefftleali's prop(,sition. the q,Iestions involvedl inl this atiielldeiieiit, as to v, hciteso mly protest against the truth ()f it. I ai surprise Aed veto li t he s oeiilet ii, a ctti. S ir, thouat suci taxes viohear meli sayin' thii abs.tractiofn is true. I de it ite (IllS' I Sir, I thought this theory of rtitli. I prIonounce it the e-.-seeice of errots, \( ide- coipact had bIcome to he re"m'dedas too ah sur~d, fo~r aiiv one to) thinky of ag'i'k vnzn it into s~pread and dat.aerotts.'This alien leCnt. asserts thait alty.'the whdfrole th em'v of a social con tract is not, there,,e but three legitinlate obiects fc r goverinent jinter[eretme, and hce for g over n~ment, oaxat, ion: and o~lv absurd: but absolutely bla-pliheious. i t as etfric,a-rd lietiio f(.)r govert~IlIiezIt taxat~ioi), and lii clo isnt'~01111 iie oen -t, t o k ~ ~~~~sueep th,epac-,CIstit man is not born unrder law, ude~r governithes.e are: fir,-tt to keep the peace; secoid, to p)0- 0'I tI If he is not so born.1 iow does lie bec omtie a mote social ordetr and third, to provide for thil 1ib- sibject of (overnmeiel? Re,'i 1ever asked whether lic defence. This reduces go,veritnmeInt to a ei n-i h c w ii be unidet gllrnt nt, Ike thi whetr will itruienta, litv, to keep the peace internally aud exter- l ie it b e lew of h i s oi - nothe will aclly. To 1ltre-serve order, seeins to comiprethe n tibteit to Iaw ol fIloli' s 1 idled InU xvhide end 4'd aim of g'ove-ilrllet, accoiding to this 1)~iilt ('f fct, 1no o1e ('ver elIterelt into such at comabstraction. Can goveri neit aspire to no hi'htIe pact. funetion than that otf a police Hasfic Has it0o lier Nay, more. Wt rit have tyi tit to make duties to perform thliliii to d elo imiiiies atid to 1)1- lawta fi' t l, ird, if hi clih()Ies to I(dejlv tli((it right, reisl tflienimY NIhere are all the great interests of hu- fuses to a it to it./ f I aiii free It{ choose lily own Iniallity \lwhich are comilaldi,idl ii much of the otteit course (f ife, to say whet rie I will be in golvernIllentt tion otf the prescotit Wen hat are your acts or out( of it, uider law ox, ut (f it: why is it that in of eniacipatiotl, of education? _,,rer are 01you col- practic e naoioit eai iake a governinentt and law leges and academies, yoder whole m iachinery of edo- to bind a min0ority'? cation Whliere is all your legislatioi testrainitig Sir, the whole (erv is wron g'. It came f:om the trades ar(d practices wfich tetiel to corri'pt public iiifidel pihilosophy (If Ho!b. 104nd his 5, or-s. It moorals? Wlhire ire your law1 look,c 11 g to the ini~irove- as.sutites thbitt iliai is an inidependent beifn, at, liberty meat of the S ate in its means of intercotrse a11(d corn. to cli,)o.se his owl) course of life, lie law bv which ie muiil,xlieatioin? By 1hIlto aittliri are roads made, will lie governed; (,r that he may deny to be goverued bridges constructed, railroads lid1( down? The gen- by any law at all. This is the idea of mati which this tiemnani 5 ideas of go eirnment are erroneous, entirely philosophy af-slumtes. But is this idea trile ill thetoo restricted. If his tlleorv be true, then the whlioe ory or fact? Is tuati an independent or dependetit bistoty of tlie world tas [)eeti wrong. All your liar- being? Is lie born under law, a law frit-i which hie bor and river itmprovenients, all your State and co001- cannot emancipate himself; or is he born vithli,ut lAw, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TH,J!'SDAV, J,NUARY 16. 33.5 free to settle his own code, free to come under its re Mr. RANNEY ittoved to strike out sec. 16, whieh stratiit% or not, just as le ch(ios? was disk,jgreed lo. Now, it, iO'titiit l 1 1 iin e.1i hO'oc 7. No \',?re,itary goti, ltlnent-, powcrso privthe invention of in iii, but the appointiiient of God. l ieial shal - ever tie gra,tLed, or co!. erred iii this State. Its existcirce pre- supposes a goverinent and law Mr. REEVIELIN moved to,in-nd said s-etioti by ntutider a goNa-eriiicri is a It exist-s itidepeti nertlog, after the word "hieretit,try, thie words, or dent of our \will, and without our consent. Law lays, other,peci-l or exclusive iminoniti,, titles."its restratttitting haIiids upon us, from tihe monient we Mr REF, IELI N id }ie i;,d Iimk,.t wift sote.oliopl)et oatir eyes upon this glorious e arth, atid i, follows n fr LI) i liri, h ise of tike gredt coideri eituz,t for thi's rpr,because O)f thle. groat conisideraun ot, all the. way to the grave-yard. And we catt tionl whrich was supI)os,A~ t., have:- bee.t} give,, to it. [le it, ino~re e~eape fm it's jal- iion tha we can e-s-. rt haad been somn.,what surtrie whieu tlii repoirt Camte to c'li e frttit the earth we itihahit, it the at' we breathe. light.'['}oe committee, hadi~ provi,,led- nig~ti.,st a gr,,at ~lati is a (Iel)eii(leitt heitte I t' t le toi exist a day with catt hver eof xit, b that cr, but tley had out the kindness atid aitl of his fellows, and the P0o-otit ittohere which we-e liviti all oroittid ts. Tley teetitig wi~dihtn of his great -reator. if he wouid r proville4d agniiu,t hesltr il,, s~that there shall cease to be de'penideit, t lii'utitst give up society, r-i lapse into barbarism, live thte life of isolation. 1),-~ no i,(l Stit hery ti0 L -ri Ndsll -o B iroll Von Gro,-, Irk o io Counti V,n asiid; but they had failed iNo, vir, Govertiniett is founided oni no such weaki to 0eu~ usqg;ittst thdt stystetno( 0p rpetua} suc-cesanti mi.-;eratble devine-, a., a soc~ial compact. It is of' d t)scir - i,;g,t,tta yt,t,1,,ptil'ee, siore, dtow griwinig up iun)(,r our acts of lucorporitton, vine origin; iut tile inven tion of staL-but the dp by w iut ite 1 Of irt chaiiged, atid al1toi,itniiett,)t Godl. Its existeu('e pre-sui.ppo;es a gov eertimet aind a law, utider and above, iuitidiu gov tire igt loti gttiel toa iriiterIdibulty reles I(-iired ill almtos,t precisely the sanrto laniguage,,. Unless itlent; a,overniieuit and i law, whtih liieti ought to /you provide tatico sp~ec,ial or xexcusi)v,- -,ri,ilpg~e, sliall obey-but which they do ii,t. As subjects o0 God's I)e held ili this Stut,, you liave not acecomipiished thie government, lae has certain inalienable rights, of duty to wthiiit you were deleg II,d ['IIere are special which human governitietit catnnot deprive hii. It iS lprivileges, special houtirs, stitecil emoluieitisenjoyed because mle violate these inalienable rights-will not i n the State of Ohio, that are, in violation of Ie great be obedient to God's law; it is in this fact. that aris-s theo Icls forutidaiitorital principles that layr t the fontdation necessity for litiuaii government. Thlere iiu.,t be, al f o r I ak htw(.salapltit power which cail legoily Joy its hands uponi the ofie-t-oou goe itei Iakthtw hal ppyh1oer wini-t prtcat oliersl Ironi Its landswu pon tl e of ressessdy to tile r-eal, and itot to t}le imaginary evils thiat (ier. andi protect others fromt his lawlessness. Hetice, hiuman goverittitents cannot be. termitted to e A N wsh set aside the laws of divinity, and titerpose betweenur.A nittler ii aiiirit of way muan atid his Mlaker. -, hietiever it does this, then is resistan-e Lto goverinnieft, otiedietice to God. [Het ir eELEIN i istitu5)lilrhtno i sMr. REEN31 LIN. TI);,t is,,iot ai sp~ecial righit, nor ilie true fountiud.iioin of ail governt ente; aind iow infi- exclusilee liriv loge. it i for the benefit of all; and initely hisglie does it rise in our estiitatlioll, wihen wlie pitlic gooi tiai it i talit, an~l the right 't Hsfr e ~i tlic gootd itvtali rilt. of t aken, and thright regarc it lii the true lihut! lit the onie Case, we look s eJ y edlf otity upoti the cait ii tig ilevic otf titani; iii tite o0fert btit it o sh!oud uic under ge,-tiaI laws; but would pro videL that they should be placed upjon tle saOCe ground liiinistlrators ot govertient, are alone resot,nsi'tle to, miani; in the ol ie. r, they tre. thle, serivant8t of Godj, as well uta; Ii te oher tey re he ervils o Gn, a, wll Mr. GROE,:-BECK said, the declaration iiu the report as, ol then,;,like respoustible to Hiin, asto10 ltri; bhut Iwas a corpy of the old Coistitoutioni, aud lie thought it never cia lis respot.-ibility to Iiadl, justify Ititti ii i won IIi 1)01 he a iitss to hidopt it -igab To have put ia~ hatinsg his duty to God. [low do, also, the functions of the proviIi)i of hiii eti ould Iave beeiii asgovernment becoitie elevate(: IL is n1o lotiger a device sutlupiot of authority over the doltiesg of other coin f~llitte,e.s, alld wIILI!d }};,ve takleni tile. ground legitimately tor repressing disorder. It is, alsoo, ai instrument e toke be, occurd by ttitiatel aoiiellioatiot co- t, uraiig " itli God hitimseli, ii briiggiig I) ick this eart to its prini.vl Ibieauty till it slhall If -we a(1opt this an-ei t, we must, do away b,ecotite a garden hoitie for man, otid dnai lhimself, to wvith the veriv r]port wilh ic hle ]I(himscelf had sigitedhis origilal Outrity; to Litat huigliet f'reedoit, voluntary the report (if lo cotim itee )ii Co:'po,:ations. The obedience to law. Tis attaitied, peace at. d good wiil,toinittittee,ti l e silt' et of 1'reatnle -tid 13i11 t~f will otice imiir hecorite as tntiitrsai as hiuttiattity. fligihtl.; has done its dittv iiodistly. It has not, at [lere, tiei, we fiul aitiple authority f,r ill gi,verti tetiip(d' to do tohe diitites;t' ll the other comimitittees,. itietit acts, lookitig to the physital well betoig iii tile Mr REE.NIEL, tI l lie (id iot inteil to coitipete moral atd inteliecttualui ogress of humanity. Wite,n ith his c(le'o'ue Mr O fo-'saicsK) i1 special pleadenigaged il t is 4ut y, it is lhttfiiLig the qile,tto Uit ofl i. Ofe w itl ed hoiwe ver, thai ii is it,evitalile thal its a tieitnc toder. reptorts,1f coitteeC will overlaip, anid in a certai,), I have titus stated tile grounds of my dissetit lo this degree itite with each other. [It( t,houtlht, howabstractioin; ti,y detiiil oh its tuthl. It would r,quire ever, the subject not improper ill this n, t. It a volutle to argue tiehese fudetmeiteal truths, and I Iust deals in hertedlitar-y rights aitil privileges -it asserts a therefure, ottiltall arguitietit. I c,,uld 1101 do less, without ptrinciplt. This 1i a declaratiuti tif r~cigt s, nd if peritititinlt it to go abroad, that tillis body otud tile vioit there is a pl ace in the wotrld where U'ki~i } dcclasrait~iot pie, of Cjivi, motiutted the trutitl of th~is pro~:osition. ought to g,,t it is here. Thtere is nowl,e'-e else that lt I could not citnsetit to thus, wititiutra derelictioti oh edit g1, tir dites beloitgduty. This diseltarged, I leave the subject %or sober re- Mi. NASH. It stteis there aire some thittg,- that, flection, atid utoture deliberation. have an astontsliiiio vitality. This question of cor The questloll theti beinig oil the almeudmeut of.Mr pioiat,ions is itie of thett. Hie thought it. a waste of Areliboli1, the sarte was dilsegreed to. time, aud hei protested aginitst the eternal reectrreicee Mr. SAII1tf! (ol Wyaindot,) moved further to atneund of these queslions,. to he delaledl iver atid over aiti the sectioti by strikitig out al11 after the word "dotie."1 over agalin. lie was prepared to ac.quiesce ini the The questioti hi-lug on the adoption of tho amend-dteiiatintwhc teCtivnot ogtcoic metit, the si-tie wi-s disagreed to —yeas d33; nays not for after having delivereil his opittionis, anti given Ihis ~~0tintitd. yu~~~~~~voe, he had dis:charged his dtuty. side, and the whole collrntry on the o,thbe'. TNow ani exclusive privilege is one granted to one man, or a fewN, to the exclusioii of all others. If every citizeni n a y obtain sirmliri acts, then there is notlhiig exclusive in it,-nothing like a monlopoly. It vwould therefore seemn idle to inisert an amerndment only to create dou,bt-lor t l.e mere puirp)o)se of raising a conitrov,er sy. If corporations are to he piollibited, let it be done directly, and in -words, which leave no doubt, no uono s.eatainnte. Suhch in niy opinion is the nore maly course, niore consistent with the digiiitv ot this bodv. M. LIDEY i)ioved( that the coninittee rise and re port.; wliich was agreed to. So ilie conimittce rose, and the chairman reported that the cosniiittee lad had under consideration the report of tdie St-anidiug Colmnifittee on the Preamlble aind Bill of Iithts and had c(liie to no resolution tlerecon. And, on m-notion of Mr..IOR-IS, the Coniventioni tooka recess. governrneii',. Tlhere the oppo13iie,,,it of all unpopular l aw d esc end into te streets, the t a h ropse the m pop!, lace, bareic ades are erecte d, batteries are polanted, aaid an appeal to aris, the shie(ding of blood, alrd the eid) p!oytheirt of tlle p owe r s of iroMr and lead are calleto into use, as the peaceful and intelligent renmedy for that which thi e leader of the movement deem to be improp er in t he law s tl ey are calie p ont to obey. BLit the gen tlemran from Ha milton (3Mr. REEM'c E IN',) corpiaitis t-hat the tcoim ittee have r ep orte( an old clause of no value, wholly obsolete; wlhetn it shoulld have reported t he peoaositio n now offered by hin. The coml ittee, sir, aJioted the on!y sensiible ruile,; it made thie old bill of righllts, t he basis of the i r report, i clucdis g all its provisions, saving some allready includ ed ik tri or reports. The com m ittee did no t desire, th introduce aid y n es t fangled Inations by way of exleibit niwg their own illumni o nation, a s ra aicas i s ispe. Tli n tlveir ohaienioti whase t he uest way tc promrot e ile dispatch ofr b siiesns aifd brimng the labors cf this Co mnvenition to a cl(se. But this modest way of doiing one's dutv does inot nieet the approbatioh n of the geintlemasa frorn Hamfilton (MIr. RvF.-mPIN.) Thiis is truly painful to the com,t,itt ee. No\v thre ge otuelnar i ouglht to cohesid r that the codrinlctte e have d lot f aeioved the tteaiching s of two continetts as he h as; i hmive 11 t been i.mortminated as b-y th e new ligh ts; ha ve not been rnae acquai vted witli the latest irnportationsw fio er ci abroac o. If he had beeei so kind as to intirnate to tihe comnmittee his w ishes on tthe sibjectl; had he baen kinid enotugl to have snbm i tteod pis views to.t, we wouli have srceived h;is sugg stions with all respect ani(d lhav,e deliberately cons~iered tlem. Thie gentlemnani should therefore be soarinlg of his censures; should have some compassion o01 the lirnited kni(owiedge of the cornmnittee, when compared with his rare acdvantages and'tltiiminatioi. As the gentleman kno~vs wlhat the latest imported niotions are, he should heave niotified aus whlio lhav(-e niot thie same facilities for recent iniformnatiotn, for new light from abroad. S'ince however the gentleinail did not see fit to enlight. I el u3,we munst throw ourselves up-on his charity for our deficiencies. If we had lhad access to two continenits, lhad been blessecd wi,h iminigling ini the raiks of scealisni elsewh-Iere, we miglht have beeni alble to lhave rnet his wishes. Aslit is, we have exercised our American senlse uponi the matter, knowing no better, we have appaa;ed to thc old constitfution, the wisdom of our 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. On motion of Mr. BAT'ES, the Colivent;oli resolved isself into comnmtyittee of tIhe weole-Mr. SAw"YE in the Chtair, anii restiined tle consideration of the report of thie colit,mnittee onl thie Ire,c T,iE AND Bii,L OF RIr ntrS. The CHAIt.M.-INa,N announed theqtuestion tobeupon the adoption of MIr. R-EEMEILiN'S arr)enimen; to see. 17; narmiely: a.;ter tiie wor-d "hereditary," insert these words: "or ot-er special or exciusive immuiinities, titles," so that the sectioin will read: "No hered,itary, or other special or exclusi-ve im,nuniities, titles, emoiltimeiits, honors, or privileges, shall ever be granitecd or confer red by this State." Mr. LARSH said he felt somewhat disposed to vote forthis amnendmnen~t, becase, it seemed to accord with a rmiotioni whichi tie had enitertajined'or a good while, that it wvas wrongr for a portion of the people of tie country to be born withi privileges whlich do inot perta.ini to all. It wa,3s in the natulre, of things, that sotne shouild be borii nmore wealthy thani others; but because a man lhad been, raised tip in luxury, it was lno reason that lie should inherit special or exclusive privileges. And b)ecause l)e was willing to vote for the proposition cf the genitlemal from Hamilton, he ho)ed tha; AFTERNOON SESSION. A OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSI)AY, JANUARY 16. gentleman would be willing to vote for a propositioni Mr. HAWKINS proposed to ame(nd thle amendment which he intended to offer to the following effect: of Mr. BLICKENSDERFER, by adding at the endii thereof "The right of association, ft,ri th e prosecution of all thie followintg: enterprises, for the advancemeit of thIe public good, " Provided, That the G-neral Assembly may pass a and for the promotion of mrorality,shall ever be held in- law, as tar as tnmay be (ldeemed( practicable, to prevent violate," the itmrnigration of blacks and mulattoes irito this The question was now taken upon Mr. REEMELIN'S State." ameindment, and, upon a division, it was rejected-af- Mr GREEN of Ross, suggested to tile gentleman tirilative 22; negative not counted. from Morgan to iocake the provision imperative-strik Sec. 18. No power of suspending laws shall ever be imig out "may,' and iiqertitng "shall." exercised, unless by the Legislature." Mr. HAWKINS accepted the mnolification. Mr. LkRS[I proposed to amrernd by substituting tMr. SMITH of Warren, said he would not object to "General Assemtbly" for "Legislature." the section, if it left the matter to the discretion of the Wh[ichi was agreed to. legislature. It was a power which belonged to the "Sec. 19. This enurmeration of powers shall not be Legislature at all events. construed to iit!pair or deny others retlained by the MNr.GREENofRossadmittedtthattheLegislaturehad people, and all powers not herein delegated, remain the power; and they had attempt.ed to exercise it-how with the people." effectually, ever) citizen in qouthern Ohio knew full Mr. GROE,BECK moved to amllend this section by well. The law upon the subject was a perfect dead striking out from tile first line the word'powers," letter. Therefore it was. that he said, if they were to and ilnserting ic lieu thereof the word "rights." have any provisioi of this kind in the constitution, let Which was agreed to. it be imperative. —for, unless this were done, it would Mr. RANNEY said he perceived that the Commit- be very uncertain whethler the Legislature wouldattee had left out of this report a n,umber of articles in tempt to exercise this power or not. thie old bill of rights. lie had copied one of them, arid He proceeded at somre length to set forth the lieceswould move its adoptiou as an additional section, as sity of Legislative action upon this subject, and, follows: amongst other things, he said, Virginia permitted no 'Sec. -. That all courts shall be open, and every manumitted slave to remain within her borders; and person, for any itjjury done him, 1in his lands, goods, Ohio had already become an asylumn for the free neperson, or reputation, shall have remedy by the due groes of Virginia and Kentucky: and, if it were decourse of law, atnd righlt and justlce administered with- termined to open the door wide for the admission of out denial or d lv. the blacks, aid for their elevation to the position of M.r. HTC[I'CiOCC. of Geauga, had no objection, to equality in political and civil rights with the citizens of thl-e arnendictJr, i f it could tbe carried out. Justice Ohio-thereby rnaking the state a focus and centreshould cortailIy )e ad,ltiristered without denial or de- point of attraction for this class of people-if this was lay, but delay could not possibly be avoided in the to bedone it should be done without his vote. Courts, utIless thev could have a gag-law there, aq welli .s in thi b((dy,,t'eug~r] |The presence of the blacks was a nuisance, especialxs inl thi~s bod}y. ]A lzaughl.]X as s ie thiws 1(,(y llaugldt.] Ily in the Southerli portion of the State; and( tlre peo Tihe section wais agir eed to. pie of this portion of the State would submit to no tax COLONIZATION BY THE STATE. more cheerfully than that by which they might get rid Mr LICF SDERFER prposed to iser the of this nuisance. Thlere was no division of sentiment Mfolowig as prop odditional section of the rIport: amongst us in regard to this matter. Gentlenmei from the northern part of the State, could not, by reason of ~)~.~aiPsof ii,,)tiev iria,, ie cralte o,rit of tIle '-Sc -.; ~p['o:) iat io 0 s of -u toey may le ate o() of lhe e their p~rejiLdices, understand why this wvas so. Bult if r Iside i si tD.l s tate, ald dlesire tio elilyrate to Li,, westerl coas.t (i ftlley were to come down and live amongst us, they Africa, o as sist t iheme i &l settlig a t ttat plce, w Islever tie would get some informaltion upon the subject. Thr'y ele'al Assi y s;a!l dee t expeiet alld teeficietl to te! would learn this fict; that we were opposed to elevat~itizeIs (,t' (thi,t~. ing the blacks to the same rank with ourselves; but, Mr. BLICKI NSDERFER said there was nothing that, while we consider them an intferior class of beintende(S by this propositiont but to do away withi the ings, we treat them with the same lkindness and faitthconstitotional objectionl, which was always raised, fuliress which we extenid to all others, in the same conwhenever thiss thing of an appropriation for Coloniza- ditiont of life; we feed them well; we pay them well; tion purposes was proposed in the G(eneral Assembly. and we do not overtask them. I'The protability was, that sn1el1 a thing would never be Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, said he had supuntdertak'r-, w;.thout fir'st 3topping the influx of black posed, when this article was takeoi up, that it was the population into thle State. It was merely designed to desigii to declare certain great principles with which remove the co;lstitctilonal objection, whenever such a our ideas of government shouild accord. H e did no thing migeit b^ de. roed tdv sable by the General As- suppose that we were about to consider and adopt here, sembly and ti)l peopre The adoptioni of this declara- an appendage to the report of tl'e committee on the tion iniglht also b.) prorluctive of good effects iii the legislative department. It did seems to himn that this way of examtle foi the other States. proposition w,s altogelhr r otit of place. It was ur Mr. LOUDON sugoested that it would be well to dertaking to aeclare what the General As embly should guasrd agailstttie libility of incurring the expenrse of do, in a part of the Constitctioii which had no conneccarrying off to Africa all tlhe surplus black population tion with the subject. which might be thiown upon us by our neighboric:g Mr. TAYLOR was with the gentleman from Ross, States or the South. The blacks had no claims upon in his preference for the imperative form of this resothe people of Ohio-especially that portion of theisi lIrtion. He also preferred "shall " to " may." He which hadt c0omne into the State since the adoption of liked to see a bold front, as 1e despised to see a mean the old Constitution. Ohio was a State for white men. thing done sreackingly. If they were goin,g to expaThe negroes were intruders ainoirgst us, and it was triate the negroes, he hoped gentlemen would face the unreasonlhte for any man to claim that it rested upon music; and the word' shall " being interposed, it us as a po.;lic duty, to transport these people at the ex- would afford a better test of the spirit cf gentlemen pease of the treasury. upon a call of yeas and nays. 337 ,(,tIJIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TtURS^AY, JANUARY 16. Perhops ile wos imihued with a sllare of that pre'ju- whiniig, nind endeavoringi to mak'le political capital dice upoO Ihe sillhjec't which tile geotleinn h:d aitrio- out of the oppressions of a people of whom they uteif ti l~)~i, c,Jiiil u [(chi; lut I-e lioped that, wilalever know abs,,lutely nothing, and endeavoring to enli,:t of pr(, (jilIc iii ililt iiiv,: f-tl,ell to )its lot, by education in t lieiroeha(lf the sympathies of those who ku'ow as or liherwi,e he 11,-,)ult i-l,t I), let i)y it i~ito the pert)e- litle about them as the(iselves. Aud whatfor? Was trietii),o ai l c t, o that iiuiltticol Cllot i t to promrote ayiv important eni-th) elevate the char Itc ~tl)',e 11 to tw-loi,g to timta (,l l sch'ooI whic h p acter o f the people of O1)1, either morally (r polifiti teacdles a be, let ill fluln,,,'i rt*its, a11 liii hu,!1 equa litv; cally? Oh, no; but to mnike a litt.l( political capital and, uts iih u ii,t,-r.o(b,l the t rit. )iri ici)le of Demiocracy, n irticular quaiters. He wotild submit now, which it "i1rd tha~t exicili, }tuId 1) ~ino'e."' of these two was the meaner course; which looked Itl rete ti to Ii all,isio loto 1l0 o crimparartive extent,he most szl(a-king? Of the'(toek It l loulatio ii ib~ lJ()rlli,.r~l +1111 sou-thern Mr.131LCI(ENSDERFER said, as this section was per ions o{'i,,, I iit tliIet1 tl~ictt all the C(.) ntios considered out of place ill the ltepoirt before tile C0ni of the Western Rkeserve (IiI no t cototain;s mDany c mi r tc, lie would ask leave to withdraw it,,-giving ored pdople as the stingle cou14ilty of Ross. Aud why n0+otie of his intention to initroduce the same or a sirn tills, was so lie C:iitd ii not te!I, ulless it iiii!iit be,x- ilar proposition at soime c(onvenienlt t1me, when the Illailled I)y tile famiiiliar adoag,, "birds oIf a feather flock Lei i lative PR(port should be under consideration. together. Iltt how it sl0oul0d lihppeti that the getitle- Mr SMITH, of Wyandot, proposed tie followii0+ t0ai1 froll) lRos. whol,l cosituents are tile oIjects of amendment, to conile im at the close of the seventeenth suct partial'y, could be willing to supplort this I)rojio- section' sitioti, he wis otitrly inable to lell. "No,' sia I n,'tole'ty Ire entaile d lbeyid personis it teing, Perhii.^ilh an elfiarg~enfefnt of thle force lof the Court, they will be so overloaded with business that they cannot hold a session in eight different places in our territory? He l ooked pupono tiis Supreme Court, as someftthing like the fi f th wleel of a t eagesoon. There ep as, it w ould seem little for them to do. If tluey ho ld the ole ir sessions onl y at the ircat of sh over,pacesint, there would be next to nothing to do. 5Now he wan-'ed to furnish them with s ome duties to perform, for of all the evils that cou l d affic t the public, the evpgerst ould be a Court holding its sessio ns at the seat of goverilinent, with nothing to do. He looked upon i t, as of gre at importance fo r any cour t to go o ut amon g the pe ple, to learn their characteri oanners, habits, and modes of thought It would give them a spu cies o f i nlformation, that they could obtaiwi in co other way. Besides, the elect upon the people will be inii tie highest de gree salut ary. For no court can acquire that power, dignity, influence, and autlh ority, iels the e ye s of the people, which it ough t it o have, unless i t goe s a mong the people, perorms its du-e ties in their sight, and places in their view the practical workings of the systerm of judicial power which acts upon and protects their interests. If you require this court to sit at fhe seat of gov-e ernmenit, theeffect will be, it will not comnmansd the~ respect and the confidence of the people, as if its duties wete performed in their midist. The question is, will you have a supreme court sitting at Colurmbus, and the business to be brotught to it, or shall it go from district to district, administering justice to the people, ior the people, and in s-iglht of the people? I have ever said when I lavw, been inquired of, that this convention would not fix upon any systemt that would Dot bring } ome justrice to the people. 1 have used my endeavors Io counteract the tendency, to bring disrepute'upon its labors. But, sir, dry up the foun tains of justice —create a systerntha,i shall ensure delay and tiincertainity-talke it awaey from the. people, an-d lo cate it at the seat of government, and you have damn ed-irretr-ievablv damned this constitution. Mr. Kltl,,KWOOD said, it appfe,red that the gentle main from TI'rami-ibuil, [Mr. RANNY,] had a deep seated opposition to the entire system cf the commrnrittee. He attacks the report disii.geniotisly, and lays to this sys tem, all tihe defects, del,ys of jutsriteicortii,e,iuances, ap peals, &c., incide!nt to the present svsltem. These are subjects proper to be discussed, under the head of re form, in the practice of the courts; but haves no rele vanicy to the present subject. T he question is, shall the supreme court sit at Columbus, or shall it sit ili each of the nine d-istric,ts of the State. Now, the gernt tleman has himself in,troduced ai system of his own; and it would seemn, tliar he is readv to break down that of the comnmittee, in the hope, then, to ilntroduice his own. There nmay be a qu-esttion of his consistency which may be seeni in the light of his own report. In that, he is content to have his supreme court, ill three places in the State. Here he is not content, that it shall sit in even nine places He seems not to halve read his own project recently, and to haive forgotten its provisions. And he appears equally ignorant of the provisions of the report of the committee, or he would have known that to sit in bank at Colurribus, is but a small portion o tlhe duties required bythe judges of the suprenmecourt. The provision of the report is, that the supreme courtthat is, the court in Bank-shal sit at least once a year at Columbus, and at such other tinies and places, as the Legislature may direct. The proposition involved in the amendment, is, not that the court that now corresponds to the supreme court, shall sit in each of the districts of theState; but that the court in bank, shall sit in each of the districts. 365 ivir. N iA.: Y iimoved a call of the convention, and counties of the State; and, peihap:, befoi- the ad the same bein;,tordeord, Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, joiurnIlent of the present session of the (eneral As Barbee, Case of Licking, Chaney, Clark, Curry, Dor-r semblv, the number may be increasecld to ninety. And sey, Farr, Floreitce, Graha'm, Gro,beck, Hitchcock of, if thle inulnber hliould he so increased, each of these COyahoga(, Ltlloota, Lwrelice,. Mason, Nash, Norris, Judges Awould have to atted colurt iii tlirt, y lifferent Peck, Perkinns, Pidi11le, Smnith of HighlaTnd Smnith of counties. We'il, howv 10o11; a tt e rm e beqiredi1 Warren, Tow;le aIdVance, were found absent. in eacl i couiit? No iaaiN colifi tell tlhlit vit ih cer On niotioi, MIessrs. litichcock of Cuyahoga, Mia tainty. It would, (of coursIe, (opeiid ulln the a)ouint son, and Simith of Warren were( severally excused. of business. I would supl)ose, yself, tlat one week's On mnotion of Mr. CH AtMBERS. allfurther proceed- time to eachi county, upoll an averagte, would be suili ings under the call were dispensed with. eient. In somie counities it might require a term of Mr. HITCHU CO0} of deausfa, wouldk like, if it' only one, two, or thiree days; in othier,, two weeks, or were possible, to leluove some of the difficulties in three weeks would be required But, upoI an aver the way of his toleatue from Trumbull, (.Mr. RAN- aeI it would, perihaps, be safe to take one week for VEY.) It seemed to hib, that the different parts of each countl'y. Thus, then, we would lhavel emlployment that gentl anii's address this m-notriingr upon this sub- for these three Judg,es for twentyvnine or thirty weeks ject, did not very wvell ftally one vithli the other. of the yeair. Besides tlisi there a, according to the The ge'lieniaii tells voul, in thle first place (said provisions of the bill, if adopted, thell District Courts, Mr. H.,) that you Ti ve snomewhere about sixty or sev- Iand the Court in Bank, to be attelulded by these Judges ..... H., t- a', y o:av' Y e her lattite r Court I pse, oldb_, held in three enty cases tlhat ogo into the court im bank every year tle latter Cort, I suppose woul ) held i tIe and in t is lie is not very far out of the way. He different places, namely: In the ceintir of COyahogra then seellis to be ii-pressed with the idea, that everv in the niorth1; in the co[unity of Frakinl, in the cen — case appealed from the court ofajiistice of the peace, tre; cl in the cointy of I'aiuiltou1 i1 the si th-west. will neeess arly gro up, inito the Court in Bantk un(er Here are th,ee differenit co,irts to be held by these the proposed systel; and brings in evidence his nine- three Judg-es, and the qe.,t;io is, lhow ri-iich time ty dollar lnte, sied foi inl the coulnty of Auglaize, will this Irecquit? It is itipossibe,) for ine to tell. and comlinlg up throiugh the county court, the coimoTi Buit I am siti _ ied of this fact, that, under this syspleas, the district coirt, to the court in bank, which teiti, nucIh mIre busin iess will o into thlis courit than is precisely tlihe saie course now pursued in cases of what i,s io-w taleon iri1o the CoIirt in Bank. For, at appeals iducino neither 1no i1ore, nor no less, de- the presenii, timie, all the bu.i -e, wt aicht goes into the lay. Coiurt in Baiik, goes thele at the election oft the Judges, But, this bill wa(s drawn uip,w\ith the view of lea- ad for their satisfactino. They caintot b compelledi ins it to the (Ger iialT Asoefmbly, either to have tils to take aiy case, uile:: po n is co, -ideation ii the supremne court held.t the seat of government, or t Cir cuit, there hai ari::ii a ditft,elece of opnion; a(l ,such othe- plastes a tlihat body may prescribe; so that then, if the parties deire it, it I,. o head before if it sliotiuld be thouglt, proper to hlve this court held tfl( Court inii Jlank; but no cse e there, except it in each dislrict, it aight be o apointed. It wasdi- is desiired by the Jd ltes thienselses. U (nder the proLinetly provided i e tlese aords: thlat th-is court, should posed systei levri, hoeer, I pteslie that cases awill bh hold at lea t one terii in (ach year "at the seat of taken into this Court froti other conlsiderations than government, anid siuch other termrs atthe seat of gov- the wishes of the Jl des. Well, we h;ve seen that emirnrnent or elsewl-,ere, as ulay be provide by law." those three Ji1i(, " i es tle Jd atlldil i Thlis is leaving a discrei tio ih that body, to be ex-Hatilton count, wi1 have emp)loyImlnt fti nore thbli ercised in aecoi-danicewith the -walits of the State. It six months of tlhe ear, wlich will l)e peri-ianent. does riot bind themi down to any certain rule. And And then, accoirdine, to the systemn of riy frieild, voe now the siniplo questioc is. wheLether it woilt(l be best will have eighlt places for litti!! flie Court in Bauk to adopt the amnendment of my colleaogue (Mr. RA- instead of three;and yol will have the StNpreie NEY,) and say that this court shall be held once a year Court in Bank for Hamilton ciunty, a hitch wavill re. iIl tflie riuie,ipecifitte listricts, of the State. qquire the presence of all the Judges for a ter-m which, It sceinsto rne that it would be hlardly desirable to it seems to mie, cannot be leos thanii six weeks. Thei OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 21. 367 you will have the eight other places in tile State for! He would ask the gentleman front Gea;ga, how long oldilg the Court iu Bank, each requiring a session the Supreme court sait usually it Ilatia iltonll county? of at least twoweeks, to be attended by all the Jutdges, Mr. HITCHCOCK. FIrom three to five weeks. which, added to thie six weks required for Hamiliton Mr. RANNEY. There was no reason then in aicounrty, M(-tuld( make twentvy-two weeks; and if those ticipating a longer sitting of tie district court, than the eight districts were to require a session of thireeweeks lermi occupied heretofore by the supreme court, in doeach, this time, added to that required for Hamilton iiig the same businless. cotunty, itould imaLe thirty weeks; wirich, added to It should be recollected that the difference between the time to be occupied ill the circuits of tliese Judges Idoing all the business of this higher col:rt atthe seat of would imauke something like sixty week —-so the year government, and in thedifferentdistricts, consists only would lnot be long enough for this service. in the time lost in traveling from one district to an It seems to me that it would be utterly imtpossible other; and with the present improved faci!ities for travfor these judges to do the busiiess which my friend clitg, that difference would be very i,.convsideralble, w,tuld iittpose upon then. Still he would inipos_e for thea. very same businiess would have to be deterthis service upon them, because they would have no- minied at the capital, which they would find in the disthing to do! If these judges were to be mneii of fai- tricts: and, to give one week, to be censunred in travellies, those families must be entirely neglected. We img, he considered, would be ample. may perhap find bachelors enough amongst the law- Hence the whole question was simply this: Should yers of the State, to fill these offices; and that, in fact, the judicial business of the State, all be forced to the would be the onily safe way of proceeding, under suchI cenlre? or should the court go to the districts, and dio a system. the business there? It certainly coulsd be doiie, just as For these reasons he was opposed to the amnend- readily aud just as well in the districts,as at the seat of ment. government-excepting only the little time required Mr. RANNEY was particularly gratified at the by the court for traveling fromn point to point. state of progiess, which gentlemen of the Committee But if this was going to be such a terrible drag on the Judicial Department hiadm ianifested, with refe- uponI the Judges of the Supreme Cotii', to go and sit rence to somne iieproveinents which hle had beenii enii- in the districts with the Coimoni PIleas Judges, he deavoring to make iii this report. Recurring to the would ray getlemen to tell him w hat -was to beconme debates at Colnumbuts, he founlld about one hundred o f the Judges of the Common Pleas, wlhilst they were pages of the reports, made up of debate upon his to be sitting day after day upon the trial of cases motion to miake this District Court go iniito the several both of a civil and ciminal clhar:acter? Certainly, if counties of the State. they could find time for the hearing and trial of the Now, I am told (he continued,) that this is a conII- factes connected with all the cases of a civil and crimceded proposition; althoug'h the very gentlemnien whoi inal character to come before tlih m, the time would tell nte so now, assisted to vote down my amendment be most abundant for the Supreme Court to settle the last suiiiiier. I understood miy honorable c(olleague complicated questions of law arising in the Court [Mr.!lITCCOCK of Geatiga,] to say that he regarded below. Who did not know that, iii a given district, this as a settled propoitioii. four-fifths of the time was required for the trial of Mr. IIITCiHCOCK, (ili his seat.) That ismy mind questions to be considered by a jury; whilst only about it. one-fifthl of the time would be necessary for the hear Mr. RAN NEY. I do not know but it may be so. ing of questions of law. hope it Ad i it i, e certainly have bee But he would be willing to dispense entirely with 1. hope it is so. Anid if' it is, we certainly have been tesrie ftespeecutjde nteds sneakin,,,o01e progress durintg the recess of the Coni- the services of the supreme court jtidges in the disventiit If thibes dris tobe reodesd as a concede fact triet courts, for hlie considered this arrangement to be ventioi.~. If thiis is to be regarded a,- at conceded fact-,, en-tirelv out of j oint twsams i~ua lafo then all our labors have nlot beenl for iioiiglit; f fentirol out of jointt It was a niost singular plan for the al ou lbor hae nt:bee fo nogh; fr cr-dove-tailinig one court upoin another. What, was the tainlv there has been no battle more fiercely contested, oetailigoe ot upo another What nws the than tact'ah ich'aras uragd in the atteiiipt to make operatiori? Uiiless You dispense with the services of thanis Cothat which was wagedvey county in the Stattempt to make the supreme judge in the district court, (which he this Court sit in every county in the State. wu~l~ee, o ol aeteejdeo h would prefer,) you would have those judges of the Mr. I. continued: His colleague had assumed that coi-mmono pleas, and one supreme ju dge, sitting for the it wo7tld require half the time of one of the Supremne hearing of eases in the district court. From this judges to do the business for the district of Hamlilton court, questions might be removed to the supreme county alone. Hie admitted that Hameilton county court where three judges make a quorum; and thus might constitute one of the districts of the State, al- iight be produced the anomaly of three judges rethout,lit her populat,ion would not entitle her to be so versinig the decision of four judges-wliilst the lower constituted. But he admitted this, and supposed courit-especially the common pleas judges sitting in three judges of thie Cornmmton Pleas to he elected for thalit court, on account of their familiarity. with the this county. These judges were to hear every cause, case, might be better qualified to determine the case, civil:.ltd criminal, which might arise in the couinty of tlian those w-hlo would overrule their decisions: and Hamilton. And his colleague thought that it would he was told tlat this was correcting errors! require the service of one Suipreme Court Judge, to sit After some further notice of the argumient., he rehalf the yeai upon the hearing of issues at law, aris- marked, in coitelusion, that he would have all the duing out of the cases already once heard before the ties of the proposed supreme court ill baIk, to be perCojumon Pleas Court; and it was by this kind of formed by the district judges. But, if gentlemen showing that 1he would make it appear that the Su- would go and constitute this court, he would be in preme Judges would be overburdened with business. favor of giving them just as much labor as they could But then the presence of the district judge was not perform for the good of the people who employed absolutely necessary to constitute a district court. them. But, ifit werechargeduponhim thathe(idnot The three common pleas judges could hold court with- understand this system, he plead guilty to the charge. out him, and, as he would show, without detriment to It was a system so complicated, that even the fathers the service. But he could not see how this district for of it did not themselves know how it would operate. Hamilton county should be longer occupied with the It was left very much to be fixed up by the Legislahearing of appeal, than the supreme court had been oc. ure, It was a most complicated system, involving capied with the appeal cases of this county heretofore. many absurdities. It gave the principal part of the OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 21. labor to the common pleas judges, sitting in the counties; and then established two paper courts above them-the system growing larger-investing the most d igni ty in th e district c ourt, and tapering off wit h a smaller court placed abo ve that! tIe did not know but that, in t defe he sudtmemt of some, letwas precluded from the privilege of amending this report, o n ac cou nt of his opposition to it. Never theless, he sh ould follow his own c donvictions of duty, and for feara thiat this sv stem might yet be adopted, he would continue to endeavor to make it p opular, b y bringing it as near to the people as he could. Mr. WOODBURY said t he q ues tion was not whether this plan was or was not better than that proposed by the ge ntlema n from Truminbull. It would be -m ore ratiorlal and prop er for the framers of the bill to defend their own system, rather than go out of their way t o attack anot her system-. He then went on to defend the system proposed by the gen-tleman from Trumbull, having th e advantage of bringing the supreme court into every district of the State. With respect to the plan tinder consideration, he argued in favor of fixing, other points than Columbus, for the session- of the supreme court in bank; and, generally, in favor of the substitute proposed by the gentleman from Trumbull. Mr. MITCHELL suggested that the whole object of the court in bank, was to hear merely such cases as should go into the shape of reported decisions. He thought it a thing qits.e -uLcalled for, to take. a court of this character, into every district of the State. Mr. OTIS desired merely to explain his position with respect to this report. He was opposed to carryi.ng this supreme court, which was to be of the nature of our court in bank, into every district of the State. Since the recess to-day, he had gone into a computa. tion of the probable time which would be required to carry the district courts, into every county of the State. and he,found that there would not be time enough for the judges of the supreme court to perform their duties as a court in bank, and also, to per"orm their duties as part of the district court in each county of the State. He was, therefore, opposed to the amenidment, of the gentleman from Trumbull. At the same titne, if the report should not be amended, so as to require the dis-. trict court to go into each county of the State, he should be opposed to the whole of it. Mr. RANNEY. How much longer would it require the same court, to do the same amount of bus'ness, sitting at different times in nine places, than though it were to sit in one place, or in three places? Mr. OTIS believed that the business would be done much better, by allowing thle court to sit in few places. In those classes of cases which were to be tried by the supreme court-ali paper cases-it was important that they should have access to extensive libraries, in order to the determination of questions in a manner creditable to the court, and satisfactory throughout the State. This was the reason why he should vote against sending this court into the several counties of the State. Mr. RANNEY (in his seat.) That is not the old reason. It amounts to this: that you are in favor of centralizing. Mr. SWAN supposed that, if there were nine distriets for the court in bank. it would be necessary for the Legislatulre to fix the time for holding these courts, before it will be possible to know the amount of business to be donle And, in doing so, it would be necessary to leave a considerable margin between those terms. He was opposed to the amendment, on account of th~is, and other difficulties which it involvted. The questionl being on agreeing to the amendment of'Mr. RAVNElY. Mr. STANBER~ demanded a ~it. ison. The question then being first on striking out — Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays, which, being ordered, resulted, yeas 45, nays 50, as follow-: YEA s-Mess!s. Atchbald, flair, Cahill, Cahe of Hw,cking, Case of Licking, latiey C ook, D )osey, Ewiniig, Farr, Fombes, Gray. G,',ieie ot Defiance, G Heag, Ha,d, Holt, Hoot aman, Itmlnphreville Hunt, Joiies, Larwill, Leech, Leidbetter. Lidey, Loodon, Manoto, ithelle, Pattehsou,. Qfl Liley Rannmey Reetrielini, Roll, Scott oft Aktglaize, Sel!ers. Smliithi of Wyanidot, , tebbins, Stir kney. Stidger, Strouble, Thoinpsoli of Stark, Townishenid, Wilson, Woodboury a!nd Presi(lenit-45. NeAYS-Messrs. Aadrews, Barbee, Barniet of Montgomnery, Barnett o Preble, B0tes, Ben nett, 131ikensdeifei-, Brown of Attlles, Bhown of' Carroll, Cha,ll ing,s, Curry, Gi!ett. Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hainilton, Harlani, Hawkinis, Heiiderseo, lHitchco,.k of GC,ara, Hol ones, Horton, Blunter, Johnson, Ketegnoem, KifT b, Kirktdoor,t, Laosh, Mason, Moreheod, Miorris, McClotid. McCormick, N~or,-is, Otis, Peck, Ri(Idle, Sawverr Sanott of Hah risor,ami of Hiti orland,. Stanbery, Sfaniton Stilwell, Srevar, Swift, Taylor. Tlotmipson of Shelby, Warren,i, Way and Worthingtoii-50. So the motion to strike out was disagreed to. Mr OTIS proposed to amend the third section by insertiig in theeiglith line, after the word "in," and be fore the word "each," the following words: "each county of." Mr. HUMNPHREVILLE suggested a modification of this amendment, namely: striking out all after the word "each," in the third section, to the word "provided," and inserting in lieu thereof, the following, "zouoty by the judges of the courts of common pleas of the district and one of the justices of the supreme court, any three of whom shall be a quorum, at least oncle in each year." Mr. OTIS-3 accepted the modification. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE said, the effect of the amendment was merely to provide that this district court should be held in each county. It made no other change in the section. It did not change the character of the district court at all: but, instead of holdinlg this court once a year, or oftener, in each district, it provided that it should be held once a year in each county. That was the only amendment proposed. He would say here, that he was opposed to this district court: and in this respect, perhaps, he. occupied a position somewhat similar to that of his friend from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY.) He was not in favor of this system. It was too complicated. It proposed more courts than were needed; and more, as hlie helieved, than the people desired or expected. Yet, if it was to be adopted, he wanted to malie itas little objectionable as it could be made: and he believed the people would submit to many things about it which were inconvenient or ex[ ensive, provided their business should not be taken away from them to somne central point. If the system was to be adopted, it would be less objectionable with thisamendment, than as it now stood. Withl this amendment, he should not grieve so much at its adoption, But he would not be able to avoid feeling exceedingly soiry, if it were adopted without this amendment. [Laughter.] He did not know but that, i n the estimation of some gentlemen, it would be improper for him to propose an amendment here: but so long as the frienii( of the bill would offer no amendment, he felt perfectly justified in offerin, it, although he ivas not yet quite certain but he s-bould vote against the report, even if his amendment were adopted. He practiced neither trickdiy nor disgui e in this matter. Ther. STANBERY remarked tha t lawyers kne w that if this Court was to go into every county of the district, it would delay the decision of causes. He reminded the Convenltionl also, that this district Court was not to cost the State a single dollar. Mir. LARWILL stated his belief that nothing could be done to render this Constitution more odious.than to isert this article without a provision to take the district Courts into every county. 368 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WBDNisDAY, JANUJAR 22. The question pending, being on agreeing to the amendmnet of Mr. OTIS, to wit: In section 3 ill the comrlmencemetnt of the same, strike out the following words: "district by the judges of the common pleas, andi one ofthe justices ofthe supreme court, any three of whom shall be a quorum as often in each year, and at such places in said district, as may be prescribed by law" and inserting in lieu thereof, these words: "counity by thejudges of tile courts of common pleas of the dis3trict, and one of the justices of the suprene court, any three of whom shall be a quorum, at least once iii each year." Mr. GROESB3ECK. Mr. President. We have now arrived at an important crisis in the consideration of this Report. If the amendment of the gentleman from Medima, (Mr. IHIUMPHREVILLE,) shall prevail, I shall be constrained to believe that one of the great reforms in the administration of justice-one which the people have longr needed and demanded, will te denied themi. It seems to be admitted, that if this amendment carry, we are to have in the counties but one appellate term a year. For one, sir, I can never consent to this unnecessary delay. Mr. President, I am one of the committee, who have presented this plan of a Judiciary to the Convention, and altloughg I have participated but little in the discussions of it, I may be permitted to say, there is 1no one of us U iho feels a deeper interest in it, or in the subject to -whiclh it relates, than I do. I was willing to be sileut while others were ready to defend the plan of the'Rport, but it would now secm we are to take this important vote without further debate. I cannot consent to do so. It has been often and well said,thlat this is the great subject, to consider which, we are especially convened. I know the people are waiting in anxiety, for what we shall do, and we cannot be too careful in our action on this subject, in their behalf. MMr. Presidtent, it has been the practice of those, who oppose the plan here submitted, not merely to consid ero anid discuss it, but, as well, to denounce and abuse it —to call it all kinds of hard names, and apply to it epithets, that manifest quite as much feeling as reflection. We have been told it is complicated, involved, and unintelligible; and such language is used in the discussion of the mnost trivial parts, as well as of the plan as a whole. It has seemed to me, there was something unfair and censurable in the mode of attack. Now, Mr. President, with the same propriety I imay use the caoe language of any plan of a Judiciaryyes of the (ld plan, low in use in our State. It is idle for us to hope to devise a plan, which the people will comprehend at a glance, and which shall have no appearance of being complicated. I speak within bounds, when I sav that three-fourths of our people do not, up to this moment, comprehend that system, which has bI'en in practical operation among them for nearly half a cenitury-since 1802. Who is there of the profession. wiho has not been inquired of in numberless instances, and by our most intelligeulnt citizens, on this subject? What (lo you mean by your Court in Banik what by your Supreme Courtwhat by your Comnrmon Pleas Courts-what is their jurisdiction-how do they act, and for what purpose are they severally intended? It is not strange that such contrivances should seem complicated to those who are not called upon to make them a study. It is long before the student of the law himself, comes to have a clear and satisfactory understanding of them, and ill mainy instances they do not, till they have spent years in the practice. NINETY-FOURTH DAY. WEDNaESDAY, Ja nuary 22, 1851. 9 o'clock, A. M. The Convention met pursuan t to adjournment. Prayer by Rev. Mr. DEERI.,NG. Mr. BESNETT presented a petition from Elizabeth L. Ander son and seventy-others, femal es of Tussad ravwas count y, pray ing that a clause m ay be inserted in the new Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law legalizing the traffic in spirituous liquors, which wa s rea d at the Secretary's desk, arnd on motion of the ae ee a o the same gentlean laid on the table. The PRESIDENT laid before the Convention the following communication from J. V. SMITH, Reporter to the Convention: "'To the Hon. Tirm..Medill, President of the Constitutional Conventit., " SIR:-As thie publication of my reports of the debates and proceedings of this convention, is now some two wveelks in arrears, it nqay be proper for me to state, that my reports are written out and ready to be forwarded, within twelve hours of their date, except in cases where someportions of the same are reserved by request of the delegates, for revision. In such cases my instructions are, that the reports should be printed without the reserved copy, if the same does not arrive in time for the printer. On one or two occasions the agents of the Express Company, have, by m,-istake, lost one day in transmitting copyof such delays, I hold their written statement. To keep the publication of the debates and proceedings within forty-eight hours or less, of their occurrence, would require the daily publication of about five columns in the Columbus Daily newspapers. There is now in ('olurxmbus. the copy of some ten or eleven days reports unpublished. Respectfully, J. V. SMITH, Reporter to the Uonventi,7o." On motion of Mr. LARSH, the communication was referred to to e select committee on reporting. Mr. SAWYER said he was glad the Reporter, had brought the subject of the publication of the reports, before the Convention. He, had long felt that there was great cause of dissatisfaction, but had not been able to ascertain where the fault lay. There was one grievance which ought to be speedily remedied. The publication of the reports of the Convention are nearly two weeks behind, while any gentleman who would take the trouble to examine the papers printed at the seat of government, would see that the proceedings of the General Assemiibly are kept up to the very day upon which they take place. He saw also, that the editor of one of these papers, had taken upon himivself to speak in jeering, unjust and contemptuous terms of the proceedings of this Convention. Now sir, I am not soft enough to be willing to permit this state of things long to endure. If the papers at Columbus will not publish our proceedings within a reasonable time, we ought immediately to employ some one else. Mr. CHA~IBERS said he was sorry his friend from Auglaize, (M,Iilr. SAWYER!) had not been a little, more plain and frank. He had alluded to the publication in a newspaper, but had not given the information as to which paper he referred. In regard to the publication of the proceedings of the Convention, he was aware that the blame rested solely upon the editor of the Statesman. The copy goes from the reporter to him, and is taken by the Journal from his copy. The Journal, of course% can get it no faster than it is printed by the Statesman. Mr. SAWYER said if the Statesman was to blame, he would not stand up to defend it. On motion of Mr. MANON, the convrention took up tlle report of the committee on the judicial departmant. 369 On motion by Mr. LEADBETTER, the Conventioit then adjourned. 011OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEs?NEs)AY, JANUARY 22. I begin with Magistrates' courts, or courts of Justices of the Peace, as they are called. Herein both plans are precisely the same. It is not proposed to make anv difference in the organization of these courts, but to leave them as they have been fromtn the beginning. No one obiject.s to the report in this p)trticular. Thle next court in the new plali, is the County or Probate Court. In the reeort it is required that this court shall have jurisdiction in matters of probate and administration and guardianshipi, and at all events, and in the first place, if I miay so express mnyself, do this business. We further provide, that the Legislature, if it shall be found expedie(it at any time hereafter, may .-confer upon it appellate jurisdtiction in civil cases from Justices of thle Peace, and inferior criminal jurisdic tior. tlerein the report departs frotii the present sys tem. This is a new court. All agree that the people want some such court. All agree that it should be a Probate court. Some would make nothing else of it, and others desire to make much more of it, than the Committee pr-opose. We provide that it shall be a Probate court, and believing that it may be desirable in many sections of the State, we say the Legislature may co nfer upon it appellate jurisdiction in civil cases fromt the Magistrates' courts. This was done mainly to avoid the expense and delay that have heretofore been occasioned by appealing such cases to thei courts of Common Pleas. For the same reason, we further say, it may have petty criminal jurisdiction. We believe the people will approve alft this. If they prefer it shall be a Probate court only, the Legislature will not make it any more. If at any time hereafter, the peopleshould think it desirable to give it the additional jurisdiction abovw mentioned, the Legislature can give it. If such an experiment should prove a failure, the Legislature can take away tlisaddiitional jurisdiction. It seems to me, this is about right, and that it would be unwise to allow this court to be incumbered with still more ju risdiction, as has been proposed by some. The next court in the new plan, is the court of Com mon Pleas. This is the same as the old court of Com mon Pleas, relieved of such jurisdiction, as is given to the Probate court. This is also a Cou.,ity court, and will sit in each county, as heretofore. This court in th i e new plan, differs from the same curt in the old one in these particulars. In the report,,ve dispense entirely with the associate judges. But one judge sits in this court, doing the same business it has done heretofore, except that which is confided to the Probate court. It will be observed that the State is now divided into nineteen circuits or districts, in each of which there is a President Judge for this court, andi three Associate Judges in each of the eighty-seven counties, with whom the President Judge sits, as he goes from county to county in his circuit or district. In the nlew plan, in steau of dividing the State into ni3 etf(-enI circuits, we divide it into nine.'v; hy is this? There is an imperative necessity for such a change in districting the State, whether we adopt this plan, or any other. What would be the result, if this change is not made? Let it be reronenmbered, we are to have no Associates hereafter,'o matter what plan we adopt. What follows? Suppose you divide the State into as many districts, asyou have Conimon Pleas Judges, electing one Judge for each. This Judge would staud alone in his district, without help or dependence. If he should be unwell to do businiiess, there could be no court in his district. There are to be no Associate Judges hereafter to meet this contingency. For flis reason partly, the districts are stmade larger under the new plan, s3 that there may be more thait one Judge in every district or circuit, and if :onle should be incapacitated by sicknsess or otherwise I affirm t hat tha e plan here reported, is no more difi ficultrto bei understood, no more cormpLicate d or inls volved, h tin the o o pie h ainve been using f or the l ast forty eight years —tTechat it is just as clear, and plain, and intelligible. Tpsopi'e htve, made no such com plaiits as these, allti yet they have complained lonlg ajd otrilly, aken pr by)p trly. 01' what have they com pie m y e coplained. eyhae co mplaned, tha t ou r system t of praceice was oo u lystea ious, aid t aha t our courts did wio t atiidminii ster justic e "wit hout denia l or delay." These deave }eeni thieir coitiplai.,ts,i and it is herein they hlave demanded of us a remerdy anid reform. I am one of those, who believe there is t oo much mystery in thae proceedingts, th at a re conduc t ed is our courts. While we have as good law in Ohio, as caui be found in the world, the system of practice by which it is adiistcnistered, is to the uninitiated, as rrnysteriou s as it ecro leancy- as u main tellifible to th poe icp eople gene rally, as the tricks of a j uggler,or the perlo rmaince of a Blitz or an Alexander. It is regarded by the masses and with somie truth too, as an occult science. Sir, this should not be. It is our duty to make this system less technical, and plainer and simpler. But, sir, the rem edy for this, is not to be sought from this commin-ittee. This subject has been referred to another commmittee,the: committee on Jurisprudence; and I have alluded to it, only because the gentleman from Trumbull has muds use of it to throw discredit upon this report. We have nothing to do with this subject. Our duty is to report a plan of courts and not a plan of practice. The illustration of the gentleman from Trumtbull is wholly irrelevant, and I may say, also, with the gentleman from Richland, that the same absurdities and delays ofjus tice, may occur under our present system, or under the system proposed by the gentleman from Trambull, or any other, wherein there, are courts for the correc tioni of errors. Let us not, then, coniemnii this or any other plan, because there is an existing necessity for a reform in our modes of pleading and practice, or in some of tile principles of our law. Doubtless, that sub ject will be taken up by the legislature, and I hope with others, that ere long our plana ot administering justice may be such-so plain and simple, that our people may uLderstand to some extent at least, what is going on, wheni they enter our courts. But, as I have said before, this subject is not within the range of du ty, prescribed to the committee that made this report. Mr. President, what is the duty of that committee? It is, Sir, to contrive, if they can, a judicial system, by which justice shiall be administered "without denial or delay." I ad'opt the views of the gentleman frown Trumbull in tihis respect. This is what is required, this is the constitutional requisition, that the State, in her courts, shall administer justice for her people, "witlhout denial or delay." With this view and to this end, our judicial system should be framed. What do we, require, to accomplish this? Good law, a good system of practice, good judges, and a good plan of courts. Goocd law, we have. A good system of practice, 1 trust we are soon to have. We may get good judges, by giving liberal salaries. We want a good plan of courts. T_his b:rin~gs me, Mr. President, to a brief consideration of the pisa'1presented in thlis report; and for the reasonl, that souse ares disposed to regard it as very new and as diepartinlg unn~ecessarily from our old onle, I propose to examine it, side bry sides, with the old one, poinlting out thle diffrence between then), told the causes of this diffrenlce. And I will here say, it has always seemed to me, to be proper to keep as close, as would be practicable, Lo the old system, and only depart; fromn it, to remedy a clear and maailest defect. 370 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES — EDNESDAY, JANUARY 22. there will be another or others, belonging to the same district, to hold his court, and thus keep up the admin istration of justice. Another reason for this departure from the old plan of districting the State, was to or ganize properly the District or Appellate Court. Thus far, the only material departure from the old plan, it will be observed, is in the creation of a new court-the probate court, and this court is demanded throughout the State. The next court in the new plan, called the District Court, is the same as the Supreme Court on circuit, of the present system. It has the same jurisdiction and is intended to fill the samne place, and do the same business,but much more satisfactorily,and expeditious ly. Wherein it differs from the supreme court on cir cuit, we believe it is superior to it, and will endeavor to show it in another place. There is one other court under the new plan, here called the supreme court, but under the present sys tem, called the Court in Bank. The difference is slight, we make a difference ill name, and if gentlemen pre fer to call this court the court in bank, I have no very serious objections. I should prefer, however, to re ject this ancient and inelegant title-half French-half English, neither one nor the other. Mr. REEMEL[N. The name is proper enough, as this court has always protected banks. Mr. GROESBECK. There is then a good reason for rejecting the name, at least with my colleague. To recapitulate then, Mr. President, the committee has provided courts as follows. Magistrates courts, which we have at present-the county or probate court which is new-the court of common pleas, a court we now have-the district court which corresponds with the supreme court on circuit-and the supreme court, which corresponds with the present court in bank. How much ha ve we in this system tha t is new? I think it will appear fiom this comparison, that we have not been very wild on this subject, and that we have shown all proper respect to the old system. We have one new court, and we have made considerable change in the common pleas and in the supreme court on circuit. Let me here give the reason for this change in the old Supreme Court on circuit. In organizing an appellate court to take the p lace of the present Supreme Court on circuit, the coinmittee thought it would not be amiss to bring more force into that court, than we now have. Instead of two judges, as it has been heretofore, they have provided four, without any increase of jurisdiction. It was thought more business would be terminated in that court, by making it larger, than has been formerly. Under the operation of the present system, two judges start out and hold this court il the several counties. They are always pressed for time. 13usiness is hastily done, and they are not ab!e to do it all even in haste. It was believed this court of two judges did not giv~ entire satisfaction to the public, and the committee thought it would be prudent to give this court more efficiency by providing a larger equipment of judges. I cannot, sir, call to mind any appellate court of any other state, filling the high place assigned t to th is, that is not better organized. Three is the lowest number of judges in high appellate courts, and many have more than three. Gentlemen will observe, that this court is made twice as strong numerically, as it is under the old plan. It will do more business-accomplish more, do it better, and in better time. There is another feature ill this district court, which~ it seems to me, entitles it to our regard. Three of the judges, which compose it, are jury judges-men who will be engaged the greater part of their time in trying 25 issues of fact beforejuries. The fourth is whapet may be termed a paper judge. Under the presen t s ystenm, all the judges of this court, are paper judges. It was also thought, it would have a good effect up on the common pleas judges of the several dist ri ct s, to elevate them to this appellate court for a part o f the time, and also upon the Supreme judge, lvwho is asso ciated wi th them in holding this c ourt. It is admitted on all hands, that the plan here re por ted will be economtical. It is more so than o ur pre s e nt o ne, ando as much o 1 believe, as any that can be devised, that will be practicable. Under this plan, we secure as much force and effi cienicy, as we would if we should increase the number of supremejudges to eight. This, Mir. President, is a very brief exposition of the system reported by the committee. Its difference fieomthe one now in operation is not very great. There is init nothing very new. It is not more difficult to be understood-not more mysterious-not more complicated, than the one under which we have lived for half a century. I have made these remarks in the hope that by so doing, i might remove some prejudice or apprehension, which may have been excited by the discussion, in re fertenee to the report-to show that the committee have not overlooked the old plan in their investigations, and that they have manifested no partiality or fondness for mere novelty Icome now to the amendment of the gentlenian from ATedina. I have said, that if this amendment prevail, I care little, whether we adopt this system, the old one, or any other. I mean hy this, that I believe no system will succeed, which must be worked accord ingto such a rule, and I know, that in its practical ef fects, it will not give satisfaction to the people. What is the intent of tile amendment 7 It is this-To pro vide by an unalterable, irorn rule, in the constitution, that this district or appellate court slyall go once a year into every county of the state. It is conceded, that if the rule be adopted, this court will be held but once a year for the several counties; and this is desired by those, who favor the amendment. As the report has it, the sittings or terms or this court are under the direction of the legislature, and there I am content they should remain. Mr. President, it is a declaration of our "Bill of Rights," that the courts of the state sl)all be always open, and that justice shall be administered without. de nial or delay. It is an imperious duty that we provide a system that shall faithfully and honestly carry out this declaration. How are you to do this? In no other way, than by frequent sittings of the courts. Let us look into this subject. Take, for instance, the courts of the Justices of the Peace, which do all the light business of the State. We require that they shall be always open.-every day of the week, except Sunday. This is right. But inasmuch as these courts are fallible, and we should administer justi(ce without denial, (which means true and right justice,) we find it necessary to give to other courts —the common pleas-jurisdiction to correct the errors, and re examine the proceedings of these lower courts. How many appellate terms a year do we provide, for judgments rendered before our mnagistrates? At least three, and yet there is delay here, which is complained of. Wie give three appellate terms for business done before magistrates, and yet gentlemen would allow but one, for business donle in our courts of commonl pleas. Is there any good reason for th.~s distinction? Is it not as important that business commenced in the common pleas should be terminasted "withlout delay," as that begun before Justices of the Peace should be speedily terminated? Is not the'businees 371 i 372 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WENEsIDAY, JANUARY 22. done in our common pleas courts as irmportant, in amount, atid in every respect, as that done in the other COUOOY.S T I]iife lia-ijee]? ise, niot the c. tirzen who ate required to go to the conimon pleas courts to get their justice, entitled to as much regard in this respect, as those who go to the ri magistrates, and are they not too entitled to justice without unnecessary delav? Again, it is so arranged, that a party wh9 begins his case in the c,mtnoii pleas, can bring it to trial and judgmnient in six niontiths, or at most in nine months. It is contemplated, and the endeavor is made accordingly, that the judg-menet may be rendered by that time. And yet wha,t (in,es the party have to do in that court-how much labor must hlie performn? Ie rrmust brinlr his suit, prepare his pleadings, gather his witnesses, examine into the facts, examine into the law, anid try the case upon the law and facts. All this he must do, say in six months. Now, compare this amount of labor with that which is required in the appellate court, to which the same case may be taken. It is inore than twice as great; and yet there must be an interval of an entire year between the terms of the appellate court. Sir, I cannot see the philosophy of this arrangement. The party must do iall the labor in the lower court, collect his witnesses, examnine the facts and the law, and all this in the period of six months; but when the case gets into the higher court, where only the law is to be reexamined-where there is comparatively little to do, there must be a rest of an entire year. Mr. President, this is a plain departure from the principle, that justice shall be administered without delay. I ask the attention of the convention, to another thought on this subject. The right of appeal-the right to a writ of errors, or aony other process, by which suits are removedl after judgment, in one court to auother court-is not strictly a common law right; nor should any partiality be manifested towards it. I bring a suit, and succeed. The judgment rendered, is mine; my right-and to suspend its execution, and allow the unsuccessful party to carry the case to another court, and have it a second timne considered, is a favor to him; a.id it does seem to me, that a delay of a year. under such circumstances, is an act of injustice towards me. I ask again, what has been the great cause of complaint, heretofore, in our administration ofjustice? It has been the delay, delay, delay. This has been the complaint, every where, until courts of justice have beconme pro,verbial for it. In this counity, there were, u,,on the docket of the last terry of the surpreme court, between three and four hundred cases. The year rolled round, and the judges of that court, calie here at the time fixed; disposed of about thirty of them, and continued the remaindermore than three hundred-one solid year. Let any one go to that d(locket; inquire into the different cases; trace out the distress and disappointment, this long delav will occasion, and I think he will be cured of this notion of holdina this court but once a year. But we are told, it has always been so. The supreme court has always been held in every court, but once a year. Why, tihis is one of the evils we are now here to correct. It was well enough, to require this court to go into every county, at the time our constitution was formed There were, then, but nine counties, and sixtv- five thousand inhabitatits. There are now, eighty-seven couuties, and more than two millions of inhabitants. Twhe State was then, comlparatively, but a wilderness; it is now, far advanced ill comnmerce, and wealth, and general prosperity. All is nlow in contrast with what tllenl existed. Yet, gentlemen would make this iron rule for the present state of things, merely be oause they find it in our past. Such a requisition is without a paralle!,or precedent. This court Shall sit eighty-seven differentt tinners in eighty-seven different places, every year. It is n ot to be waondered at, il view of this du t y, that it has be en called the sa our court. Tin what otc. A ated or county, will you find such an arran)gemnent? But, it is not of this, I cor eprlaio. If the counties, in any district. prefer that i t should go into every county of their district, let it be so. Wiat 1 comrnplain of, is, that we shgould fix ito the constitution, a rule, b y which this s hall be s o al ways, and in every pa rt of the State. Because this may be desired in some par ts of the Stat e, it does not' follow, that it should be so a-rranged for other parts of the State, which desire otherwise. Let us so fix the constitution, as that all sections may be satisfied. Let us lhave a (iscretion with the Legislature. Delay should not be encouraged. On the other hand, it sl)ou Id be discouraged. I find, sir, ir i our statute book, at this time, a la w that shows by the cleare st implication, that our p eople regard this plan of the supreme court, on circuit sitting, but once a year, as,in evil. I refer to the law, which imposes a penalty of five per cent., where parties appleal for delay. What is that, but an acknowledgment, that appeals are taken merely for delay, and that the present plan allows ofdelay —unireasonabledeay-delav wlhicli we should not allow, and, therefore, impose a penalty to prevent it. Ins,tead of penalties, let uis give the jutdgrnenit, and as speedily as possible. We have triade a probate court, mainly to prevent delay in that business, and to enable the courts of common pleas to des,patch what they may have to do, in a reasonable time. This is right; but when we come to this court, some gentlemen propose w,e shall allow ol' no change-although, the delay here, has been especially the cause of complaint. Sir, we violate a great principle in postponiing, putting off justice. I affirmn that one-half the crime-one-half the offences-one-half the breaches of contracts and laws of every kind, are to be attributed to the delay that takes places in administering the remedy. Delay in judgment upon wrong, makes wrongs. It is so ill every thing and everywhere —so in all laws. Man indulges his appetite for drink, becau,se the consequences or jiudgr-nie,,t upoil the vice is far removed — men commit crimes on the samie principle. It is my experience, as a lawyer, that at least onje third of the cases that are appealed, are appealed for time. Take the law of our religion. They who teach il temples say that this law is broken, and the great reason is, because its juLdgments lie far away, in eternity. Delay in judgment uponi wroIn, creates wrong. Suppose a kind Providenlce should conmission one of his best and brightest al-gels, to come down to the the State of Ohio and administer justice for her people. We have now an infallible judge-one who Is certain to administer justice without denial. We have no need of courts of appeals or error, for there will be no errors. All these contrivances in our system, placed there because our judges are fallible,-]placed there in an honest endeavor to administer good justice, would be dispensed with. The aingel- udge appears in our miidst. and, if you please, waits for arectmon as to hose he shall begin. How would we direct hint? Would we say, take your seat, hold a term and render juldgmenltseounce a year —once in six months —once in three mnonths —once ill one month? Oh no.:But we swould say, begin instantly —render i udgment i n stalt ly-Adu dgmen t —judgment —judgment 'as fast and as soon, and as often as possible, for we know your judgments will be right and it is our duty to have justice adminillstered'"without delay." In ,this illustration we finld the principle. We are bound I I OHIO CONVENTION DETBATES —WEDNI S3AY, JANUARY 2'S.? to admnini.ter justice as Aict and as ston as we cap,u tent as would prevent their attending the sessions of aind do it rigsitly; and we have no right -aye, sir, we the district court in every county. viu~o thi c c q.:- T < t'; {a,... ~ at the essarily (delay the Judgment for one dn. time, to the gentleman from Tr umbull, that the genr In somle localiies, in this co-uinty aid other places, tieman from Geautga did not speak for me. this appellate court must be held )ftener than once a Mr. PRANNEY. The gentternan is entirely correct. vear. Holiest claims are often settled at alarge dis. He did state that to me, individualIly. But did any c<,-ont-claims well secu-red and undi.sputed, to avoid gentleman rise in his place, on vesterday, when the the evil of this kind to which we have long been sub- gentleman from Geauga was giving that as the reason ject. No one can trace all the wronig it has occasion- why the convention should reject mv amendment, arnd e(d. I had rather have two termrs a year, of four weeks tell this body that he was going to oppose that statee~ach, at intervals of six months, than one term of ment to-day? That he intended to oppose this four mronhlis-much rather so have it. amendment? Did the gentleman from Geauga inti All I ask is, that we so leave this matter ill the mate that he should? Constitutici' as that we may all be a com-ulodated, We are accedsed sometimes, of not being ingenuous and to fix it otherwvise, and in a way that will be un- in our opposition to this report, and in our proposi satis c ory to a large portion of the State, is unrea- tions to amend It;-but I leave geltlemren to say for ornable and unjust. I hope the amendment will fail. themselves, what kind of diplomacy this is. Mr. RANNEY rose to address the convention, but I do not kiow teat my honorable friend fromn Frankgave wav for lin, (Mr. S'rA'sa-,Ba) will permit me to make another Mr. McCOPRMICK, who said that lie should like to suggestion in regard to this report. On yesterday, propounni a question or two to the gentleman from he told me, that the bantling was not comnlitted to ''Trumbull, bhfore he proce,eded with his argument. If my hands for nursiin,; that its friends asked no aid these questions were now asked and answered, it from me —thlat I vas for stranglinig the brat. I will ,ight save much time. most cordially yield to that gentleian, the honor of Did you mlake known to your people, that by hold. being wet nurse for it; for as much as any other gel.ing corsts il each county, final jugmnient would be de- tleman upon this floor, he has the ability to give iI layed for:ix months, or ote year longer, than if the credit and cliharacter, and make it respectable in after sarme ci),rts were holden only in two, th:ee, or four plan life. But, he must recollect tlhat this bantling, lik( ies in the district, and with this fact before them, did one of Queen Victoria's children, a,s soon as it shall They demand the county term? be born, has g,ot to be sup)ported fromn the public trea Did you mak- kniown, to your people, that your sys- sury. My constituents, as well as his, will be tax(e tem of county ctourts, would i:ncrease the taxe.s lromn to support it. For this reason, then, I suppose I mighX' :seventy ive to one h-undred thousand dollars per year venture!o intimate to the gentllemian, that it might for judicia Il purposel, morie than toe system oflered by conduce to the health of the child to have it trave: the committee, and with these facts before them, did through the State. But it may be, as it seems to be, they recomnmlend your system? that the gentleman supposes that in this way, it vitl Mir. I:ANN EY. The amendment iiow pending, is become too vigorous and healthy to meet the demands a wmost importa,t one. If adopted, it will help to cover and answer the purposes of its "nursing fathers," tile multitude of sinrs found in other parts of this Re- and therefore it must be confined to "London." p)ort. It proposes to deal iustly and equally with all I hope I sixall not be met again with the gentle uth e ou nti es of the State, by requirii the district hman's assertion, that I was not in favor of my owli ..curt to be held in. of Thu preveuting, amendment, in opposition to my own earnest profe'.to somee extent, the ceatralizatioi ofjudic alpower and sion business, nor iiiheretit in the system-i-a system alike 'injurious to thie best interests of the people, and a large Mr STANERY, (in his Seat wai unde stoo t y Sthiat, he i ndedestouite ilajoritv of the bar of the State. A system calculated I say that he intended no discourtesy. to sacrifice the small counties, and thle prolession lo Mr RANNEY To be sure, as he says, he made catre il them, for the benefit of a few comiucremia the denial with great courtesy. But, sir. I do her<.entree. Tie amnedmenet I offered on yesterday, al- aver, that, if I ever undertook seriously to do anvthough I will agree, second, in importance to this, thing in my life, it was 0o let tile bantling of this re was intended to effect the saiine end in respect to the pt mthe Supreme Court of Ohio- i ave the benefit ie busluess of the supreme court. I was theni met with the mouitain i air, by requirin it to perform its duties the lobjection tihat the adoption of that amendment in difterent parts of the State. I hae always tiougl+ woutld disable the supreme Judges from iattendingthe that an iiidepedent Supreme Court could sit as crewsittirgs of the district court in each county, which itably, and administer the laws just as wisely a das much more desirable tlan th, the s"pe ee court Masfield or MeConullsville, as in the purliens (of Malnsfield or Mcione~siia l olevelas ndI ha d puries (hall sit in each district. The ob'ection, though fal-Columbus or iin, or Ceveland. ha n acms, w,as yet plauisible an it had the effect tot e was yet plausible ranch it und the effect to supposed that the presence of a "reat city was neces l~feat that imendineot My co lea lie, (M ir.T-sary to the administration of justice. At the hazardi, i'o (,f Geauga ) thes staled that he had no doubt then, of being again told, that it is none of nimy b-usi ofCh,-iia[ theii(nonwu~ s amend tathe hadenor doubto !lt lie c()ie-nution. wouid Eat niunud the Report as to | ness, I will make a few suggestions why the preseni!, r qi)ire the district court to sit in each county. I un amendment should prevail. Iiit ted i then. as well as on otheri occasions, to be The proposition is, that the District Court shall 'it favo? of it, and froii his remarks, coming from a hold a session in each county, once at least in ea0leading member of the committee who had signed the year. I do liot turn prophet, and declare that your Report, we were authorized to infer that the commit- system will be incapable of tie peroormance of this tee would not oppose such a modification of their service. For, you have told me, that it can easily do system. Not one gentleman of the committee rose it-you are all honorable men-and I am bound to to controvert the proposition. Every man of them presume that it can be done. I do not undertake to sat quiescent here, and heard the gentleman from Ge- say that twenty-seven judges, under the proposed auga say, that t'he reason why my amendment should system, can perform all the duties now devolved up c be voted down was, that by its adoption the duties of the Common Pleas, and the duties of the present Suthe supreme Judge would be increased to such an ex- preme Court besides, when twenty-three judges have 373 374 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATEWEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22. heretofore failed iii the performance of the first duty ity of tile committee on the Judicial Departmrent, alone. Tht is your as.-ertio-inot hne. Te statement was not true at tlie beginning, and is W(ell-is ti;,,,,-nosition evnodiesa? 1 1+ (dskrct [ czar r cu.:ot for ]uxort- re??, I;.iii b.y the people. i,very gelLie1i1 C, i sp~,;k for lis soon advert to this again, and snow that tie is incord own neighborl.ood Is it expedient that justice should root in the statement be administered in each county. It should be re- But he introduced a omparison bewen lis ys ninibeored that but a single judge sits in tle Courtt of tem and the present judicial system il Ohio. ag ie Commou Pleas-and now should you not require ap- with him fully, in saying that there are just and valid peals from his decisions to be decided in the county objections to the delays and vexations iiicide(nt to the ii which the liti"ants are situated? or should you al- present system: for, if there were not, why iare Mwe low them to be taken out of the county? to be taken here deliberating this daj? But if the gentlenman to remrote parts of large districts of the State? should compare the two systems, and lbe able to shoal My honorable friend from Hamilton, (Mr. GnoFs- that his was not, in this respect, worse tlhain the pros aEcir.] has taken his text from the old bill of riglh ts, ent system, what would he gain? for we culd noet (wilich came near being left out of the new bill,) have been called here to amend what was not a which dieclares that "the courts shall be open and free grievous evil. lie ought to present us with a systemit to all; at-d that justice shall be administered without that remedies the evil, and inot content himself with denial or delay; from which he proceeded to argue saying, it is no worse than the presetsystem. very fairly and candidly: and he deserves and shall re- But, sir, I maintain that it is infinitely worse tli.a. ceive a candid reply. I will say a few words by way the present system. Let us look at it for a nmomoaet, ef improvement from the same text. and see if it is not worse. Under your present sys - Jlie says that complaints rightfully exist against the tem you have three Courts: Justices o1' the Peace,. tmainer of administering the law in the State of Ohio. Common Pleas, and Suprenie Court. in this he is correct; if this were not true —if this Mr. GROESBECK. The Court in IBaik. comrplaint had not been rife throughout the State, I Mr. RANNEY. Does the gentleman say that is a very much question whether this convention would District Court? have been in session at this day. The gentleman says Mr. GROESBECK. I admit that it is not. a Distriot that there are two complaints against the adminiistra- Court. tion of the law; and the first is, that the proceedings Mr. RANNEY. I might show what it is; bit bu have been too mysterious and complicated. I will need only remind the gentleman of what he already agree with him cordially in that. I have attempted to knows that, for about twenty-fivre years of our polit staiid upon this floor and advocate a-reform in that par- ical existence, there was no such thisig as a Court iut t'icular-believing that it would meet the just expecta- Bank in the State of Ohio. ,ionIs of the people, to put our noble system of laws I say, sir, there are but three Courts. Tlese are upon a reasonable and plain foundation in its adminis- all that the Constitution recognizes, ex,ei)t such as iralion. And when I madle this effort, I would have have been created in large cities for police and coIn reenl glad to have received the aid of the potent voice imercial purposes. And niow, if you courmece your t,f mliy friend from Hanmilton, (Mr. GROESBECK.) But suit before a Justice of the Peace, you cani appeal to I did not. I do not know but I amn mistaken, but my the Court of Common Pleas, but not beyond that impression has been, that, upon the call for the yeas Court. And if your action is couiiniicaled in the .aii rays, my lioiiorable friend voted no, upon a propo- Common Pleas, you can take it to the Supreme Courts sitiOli designed to renmove this complaint which he Hence, the existing systeim allow of buit a single ap says is rife in the mouths of the people, and which peal-from the Commnon Pleas of the counlty, to the imperatively demands reform i. But, from what he has Supreme Court, held every year in the same counilty. jlow said, I certainly must have been mistaken in his The theory of the systeni being to dispose of a case voting upon this occasion. in the court of final resort, the same year in whichli it Mr. GROESBECK, (interposing.) Does the gen- may be commenced in the court below. ilernan make atl iiqilily of me, as to how I voted? Now what is the Court in Bank. It is made up of Mr. RANNEY. I have corrected myself. I have, these supreme judges, holitin)g courts in evriy Counlty aid I supposed that I mnust have been mistaken, in And whenever they meet with a case, of sufficient imthie impression that the gentlernan voted against the portance to report, or in which the judges differ, thley proposition- for law reform. reserve it, upon their own niotion, for consultationi it Mr. GROESBECK. You certainly were mista the Court in Bank, to be terminated in Columbus. It lkAin, sir. was but another term of the Supremie Court, held by Mr. RANNEY. I am happy to stand corrected. all the Judges. It had neither feature nor attribute of 'Ihe next compl'i:' which has been made against an appellate court. You could not go there, but by the administration oi justice in Ohio, (as the gentle- the approval and recomnendation of the judges themnan says truly,) is, that there has been too much de- selves. Either the judges themselves reserve the case, l;y. The3 delay, and consequently increased expense or else two of them, at least, have to spprove a writ of and vexation growing out of the course of legal pro- error, or it cannot go up to the Coia t in Bank. ceeidiligs in the State of Ohio, has been one of the What is the practical result of this? Why that pronimient causes of difficulty and complailnt on the there gets into this court only some sixty or seventy part of the public. cases in a year-less than one case for each of the Now, if the geu}tleman's system is calculated to counties of the State. The only object being, where remedy that evil, and get rid of the delay, and the in- the judges differ, to meet together and consult them all c reased expense and vexation which it induces, then I upon the case, in order that a report may be made. It am with hlimn. I desire iiothing else upon this subject. was only an additional term of the same Court, which But I can-ot understand the system in that light. On finds its way once every year into every county of the the contrary it seems to me to aggravate, rather than State, and dispenses justice to the people,in almost evremeady the evil. ery case, without removing it fron the couolty. The gentleman has introduced a comparison, now This, Mr. President, is the old system of judiciaryand for the third or fourth time, to show that his sys- the grievous system,which we are called here to reform, teon is open to no delays, except such as are incident because of the delays and abuses which have grown to the system which I myself introduced, as a minor- up under it. These the gentleman admits, wie are OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WErI-NESDAY, JANUARY 22. bound to remedy. They are real, not imaginary evils.'give to the suitor all its benefits, you cannot get him Now, let us take a case under the proposed system. through short of thre,e years tinie. [n the first place, you have a case in the Court of Corn- My own svste,:n has been roterred to, and attacked. mon Pitas. I amn not -iii),ertakini to say how soon it I do not claiin it'o be perfoct. Bait it strikes me that will be decided there. I suppose there will be no great gentlemen ihad better enter into the defence of their diff/erence bet ween the action of this court, and the own system; when its battlements are crumblingaway, workius,s of the present Court of Common Pleas; and rather than go abroad' to attach othcrs. I shall bowev then you woild have six months delay. What, then, er, defenl my own system, in a few words. I care is tke next step? By the requirements of this new not whetier it gets another. It sha,ll have ny vote. It 'Const~t.'tiouq, the district cour shlili be held one eve- is pouned upon the gentlemen's t,xt. That the courts cV year. After you get throunrh with your six months shall be open to all and justice shall be administered it r,pe c. Ti Kiaq -,)(,d this, el for you to go in'o the District Court a'nd suppose you tion. But what is it? I have been.guilty of believing go s i;ghIt ahod yeu may: o c, ayeor and that, whenever you try a case before a well constituted a half, from the time yovr action wais brought, before and able judicial tribunal the first time, justice will be you get out of the District Court. Well, what next? just as likely to be well admiinistered, as it can be at Thare is your Supreme Court, or yoeir Siipre.ne Court any future time, upon -in apuneal to another court. in Bor whatsoever yoe please to at, which is Therefore, in my system, I have provided, that everv goiang to sit once a year-perhaps in one place, or, it case, when it has been tried lefore two judges of the may be, in three Ilaces; but how are you going to get supreme court, with reference to the facts and the law, !your cave into the Supretue Court 7 The gentleman there shall be the end of it. I doei't know but the old says the people will be able to uriderstand this system system of riddling cases from court to court, by appeal I,gitthe least difficulty. I will ask the learned gen- is the best, but I am constrained to believe that justice aleman froln Hamilton, (Mr. GILOs.sBacK,) how is this is just as well administered by competent men, upon e,ase to go inito the Supreme Court? I w-ontu be glad the application of the law, and the testimony, in the ,to know. Can the aggrieved party take it there-at his first instance: yes sir, and better than in aiiyother way, ,tlection? -or at any other trmie. This is the leading feature of Mr. cReOIESBECK (Ms Ir. R. yielding.) It is well my system. How can gentlemen say that such a sys;undeistood. The case is to giointo the Supreme~oi tiadtbodea?ItoiaaCourt iiBn.I iiderqtoo,,cl. ~~~~~~tem n admits of delay? I, too, have, a Court in Batik. It ~'y the a~ll nc' e of a writ of error, by two.judges; is made up of the same judgos who try the causes in o)r by being reserve(] by the judges of the District the districts. To this court, is resrved the heariig of "'idourt, or, e~~(ird to thre niode h~)ici may be pres- such cases as are difthclt Itad woitly of bein~g publish eribed by law —-jast as you now go into the Court il ed to the people of the State, in the shape of reports. i ank. I give to mv supreme court, originial, instead of appal Mr. RANNEY. Yott Itave got to wait until your late jurisdiction, of all theimportant cases in the State ws:ritaf error may be allowed. But, suppose, you hav to settle them ii the counties where they occur a cheac,ry c tedistrict court have d.ecided a ciaen " ureserving to themselves the power of carryiug them to aer cnse agaiist yo, and they will nout reserve it tor the Court in Bank, for review, in such cases as I have ,teervcase a~aist you,anlig they supl no t reserve ite f or already strted. hearngisuecourt, when they have been The gentleman, (Mr. GaerseOr ci) says, if you could ~annimusin hedecirion —how are you going to get gta~l ualn~io~uhs inutphe eme,ourt, where you suppoieg they a crget anoels to administer justice, you would not want ,up into the supreme court, where yout suppose, they acuto ~el.I ewr - ei ihmn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~acu~op appeals. If wc were to begin with men~ willd0 you justice'I and appeal to higher iiitelligences, the gentleman's In thre prerent system, there is rno difficulty, be- logic would be good; but wheni we try a case by the cause two of the sBarie judges, sit upon the circuit, and judignent of two fallibie men, and apl:peal from their s-itiderstanil the case perfectly. Bat whlrn you under- decision to the judgment of twNvo otlher- fallible men, :ake to reimove a ca,e. e from oie court to another court, how is it possible to know that tiejudgmient and de 5or the iof errors, would you leave a man's cision of tiae two last, vill be inoie correct than that rights to depend upon the slender teinure of the grace of the two flirst l Here is the great difficulty in the ;allowed by the jnd'ges, who are against him, when the way of the doctrine of appeals. Is it true that as a -nily question with them, will be,whether they should man rises in the scale of dignity and importance in e.onsider themselves asses enougi, not to have been the Stat, his head grows ceare and his judgment ,right, whene they have been unanimore reliable? Can the mighty chief, provided for iii The (uet,stion still recurs, aud again I ask the gentle- your report, hold the scales of justice evener, or with Ian from) Ham-tiilton, how he would get his cases into a less trembling hand than otber judges of the State? thIlie supremne court l I think he wiil find it, on( of If this wer 0 th doctrine of appeals n-iiiht do. Itl doffe di-~Ity. Wihen that gentlemnan took his text, -ould then be all-important. But ippeals, under the .h it the coutrts should be open to everv iciati, and that system before us, are from the decision of four fallible es-hoAld bedniutre to,ill, without denial or imen, to the juidlfmeut of thie faltlible men, and I ask delay, I thought the declaration meant something what assurance have you that the decision of the last :.but,he ilea, when it comes to be interpreted, by the will be more ighi,cous than t.at of the first.? a'entlemant from Hamilton, is, that we must depend for I enter no further defede, and offer no further ar'aise in dhe supre,me court, upon the grace of thejud- gumuet in favor of my system, but I feel assured my:es ii tie court below. Either this is his position, or self that it would insure the adiinistration of justice he i forchd to the other alternatve of allowing parties as equitably and speedily as any other plan that can eel ap eM pleasure fi'om the district to the supremne be devisee. It tries causes by a good court at first,, court; and then, under this system, he canitot escape thereby superseding the necessity of appeals, and froni the lois oi alniost three years of time, before he avoiding tie expenses% vexation, and delay, incident, ,can get his case through this g~auntlet of courts. Gen- to thorn. It brings justice near to the parties, and rotlemen umay take eitller horn, I doit't care which. presents equally in the court iin bank, all parts of the Now, I a~Srm that thie: systeim is tenfold worse than State, and all parties. If these things are merits, they the oldi one. Our fathers framed a judiciary, by which none of them belong to the majority system. If the in the course ofra siingle yearns maii might have his cause;i public are ready, however, to renounce them, I as a decided: but you are framing a system, which, if you awyor, ought not to complain. 375 '376 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22. I have already on a former occasion, recounted some most objectionable of its features, and it will be seized of the arguments in favor of the district courts going upon by the VWhig press to operate upon the preju into everv county. I will not repeat them. The putb- dices of the people. and iinduce them to vote against it. lie so far as I ktoeow, have, held them valid and suffi- It will b taken up and ccntien-ij'd, just as universally cielt. The ge-itleman from amnilton, has stated as a by the W'hig press of the State, as they teok op and strong reconimmendation for the district court, that it condemned tihe adjournment of tile Convention last brings iitO itjiiagges experienced in Jury trials. iHe sunimer wl,ichi was carried by every Whig vote in said it was well that vou should britig the judges of this body except two. the comrnmon pie',s into the district court. But, did Mr. LARSH. (in,erpositig.y I ask tihe gientleman that gentleman evoer reflect, that whiilst it sras well to to except the ~Vh ig paper oi Prebi~ counlity. brinig judges titus engaged into the district court, that Mr. GREEN of Ross.''liThe Whig paper of nmy tbe inIac ofb; i rreancieu! rtn n, pa~elmd un Of' of.,nty is; ~s!o an ecf ev tirn'. this duty? No judge of this court ever faces ajury, Mr. CASE of Licking. The Ohio Sta!esman aind ever hears or examnitnes witnesses, never apolis the la,4 the M.ount TUcruon Baniner, are certainly in thie cate, to the facts as they arise. It is to sit nowhere without gory. the walls of the capitol at Columbus, if its originators Mr. RANNEY continuing. Well sir, I intend that are gratified(l. They never go down to ningle in the the pec)le s!.all see chat we oppose, an-d what we fa affairs of every day life; they have never a jury before vor, in conneetiotr, with titis suibjeet.! shal staned t'> them. And yet the gentleman, [Mr. GROESBECK,] whilst the record. If thie people of the State are witling that he admits that it'is a great recomnmendation for a judge their court of last resort shill he locked up withinr tl&e to come up from the trials at comnmon law, to sit in walls of the capitol at Columbus, and no,,er emigrate the district cou.t, himiself votes for at court that never thenec, let it lie si. We shall' all take the respoisibili performs any of this duty, and has not a particle of this ty incident to tihe votes we give. All I ask is that vosr strong recommendation. shall not atteiilmt to deleat tilas Constitution, for the But, since we have come up here, upon the invita- very features that you cormpel as to put iito it. tion of the people in order that we may give themn a In reply to the gentleman fromT Adams [Mr. Men good judicial system —one that slall be just, stable, CoityicK,] who asked n e two long questions, as pear cheap, expeditious in its operation, and open to all- as I can remember them, whether the pi ople (of mr it seems to ien that the ConveC tionll should be as pa- lart of the country twere aware that they would be tient in their inivestigations of this subject, as any delayed six months longer in their business, by hayv other w,hich can be presented to their consideration. in, the district court go into each county? and wahe And, for myself, as I said onl yestelrday so I say now, ther thev wvere avware that my system of ludiciarT put into this Constitution what systeml of judiciary would cost the State from $75o000 io $100 0O0 morae. you please, and I will vote for it; because, as I hope thani any other system? I b;-ve me'yto ay, t'hat IT and expect, it will contain a clause for future amend- have not takenl any extra tirouble to go to thie people mlent, in a s ummary and easy manner. Upon this I of my part of the State, and tell then; ythliio- about will rely to remedy defects as they appear. But I in- these matters, or to learn anvything from them. I tenid, when I go home to tile people, that thev shal1 I made somene reiatrks upon the siibj,ect last suinmer, kino,w who inserted this system, and who is responsi- which some of themn have seen, and, so far as I have hle for it; and I give notice to gentlemen, tLat I hlave heard, they have been spoklen of as reflecting their lost nothing of mv zeal for sending the Supreme views. But I can tell the "entle.mani fiout Adams Court into diiffereit parts of the State, by the defeat what the people have heard. They have heard all of nay proposition on yesterday; hut I intend still to?that ceuld be said in a hundred pages of the reports propose to send it into five places in the State, and if of our proceedinigs an( debates, in the way of rethat should fil, I will iuove again to iisert four, and omineini(atioxn of the system of judiciarv before us,again, three; and every time we will have the yeas and they hase heard all tIe attacks ht were made and nays. I intend that every man waho shall read last saminer uponi my system; and no(w I speak in these proceedings, shall find my vote and my voice the face of dele?ates from the northernt palt of the recorded in opposition to the centralization, and in State-I speak in the face of every delegate-and I favor of the equalization of the benefits of the judi- demand of themi to say, whether there has ever yet cial system to all parts of the State alike. been heard, from any respectable inumber of personss I understand, sir, that complaints, in certain quar- the expressio-n of an opinion forimed in ficivor of tlls ters, are to be made against this constitution, if this judicial system? I will yield the floor to any entlejudiciary system is to go into it. The very last Whig man who can say he has heard tlisi paper which came to mne from that counity, which I, In conclusion, as connected withi this subject, lMr. in part represent, in enumerating the reasons whly the R. Imade some brief reference io the sutilect Of Law. people ought to reject this tonstitution, refers spocifi- Reform, as introduced i.to the emarks of!he "ntle — cally to this judiciary system, and declares that it is manl from Hamilton, (Mr. GiorszECIK,) hoping that infinitely worse than the old one. So the organs of t,hat gentleman, believiniig- wiith hiii upon thii-4 utilje,t the Whig party out of doors, are inviting the people to would even receive strength fromn defeat, and do lii reject this Constitutioi for the very features which the best in every hoono,al-l effort to relieve thie law paeWhig party here, are unanitnously voting to put into tice of the State from the meaningless nmystery in it. But I iiitend that thle people shalt see who are en- which it is enveloped. titled to the credit atid responsibility of fastening it Mr. SAWYER referred to the fact, that a large upon them, as every man can see, who will examine number of copies of this report were printed last the vote of yesterday. This, I am aware, will not be summer and sent out amongst the people. To these, the real reason for the opposition of the Whig press to he had never yet received an unfavorable response, the new Constitution, but it will be amongst the most and amongst all with whom he had conversed, ninepotent of those assigned. tenths of them were sat'sfied. Someof'those'hohad We might as well know at once the real cause for pointed out objections, he had asked to frame a betterall this Whig zeal. It is because the Constitution is system, but up to this hour, nothing of the klitid had likely to cut up monopoly and exclusive privilege. been presented to him. During the interval siace the And now, mark my words, if you put into the Consti- summer adjournment, he had examined the papers lution this judiciary system, it will really be Onie of the pretty extensively, and he had never seen the matter OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES — WL'r:NESDAY, JANUARY 22. discussed in the papers; nor had he seen a lawyer outside of the convention, prepared to advocate any system in opposition to this report. There were some thirty or forty lawyers in the Convention, and an able committee of lawyers had made this report upon the subject. Now, how was he to be guided in his course? Should he follow the lead of experienced members of the Convention, or consent to be guided by the morbid and inactive objectors without? It was true that the opposition of his friend here, (Mr. RANNEY,) had staggered him a little. He believed his friend too be an able lawyer, but still the weight of evidence was against him. This system proposed as many courts to be he'd in the counties, and ill some instances more, than the old system; and besides, a discretion was given to the Legislature, to increase the niu,i,ber of the seniors. He believed that justice would be done more speedily, and that access to the courts would b3 more open and free, under the proposed, tlhan under the present system; end from the evidence before hin- to this effect, he should be compelled to go for the report as it now stood. This matter had now been all talked over twice, and, if gentlemen had confidence in what they had said, he hoped they would be willing to cunie at once to the vote. Mr. HAWKINS considered the tw7o points-whether it wast a practical mat ter to hold annual county terms of the district courts, and whether there existed auclear author ity oniin th te c te Legisl ature to authorize these sessions, as of pritmary si 1 portance in this discussio n. And, as soon as tho se questions shoul d be se ttled to the satisfaction of his mnind, he would be prepared to vote. Mr. COeLLINGS demand ed a division of the questioni. Ad then, the first question being Upon striking out, Mr. COLLINGS d owe d to perfect the words prop osed to be strick e n ott, by inserting after the wor d "district," when it o ccu rs th e t hird tine, these wor ds, "or in each county thereof." Which was agreed to. And the q uestion again recurred upon striking out M r. KENNON said this omatter had been examined with great care by piro-so muct so, that no amendnient had been made to the system, which he ha d not anticipate(. A s to the question of the g entleman from Morgan, wheh there these istrict courts could be held in each county-he had looked into this mnore than any other question connected with the subject-and he would now say, that it was his opinion. that they could be carried into every county, without affecting the system; although, it was also his opinion, that it would be better otherwise, especially as it had been left to the power of the. Legislature to take it into every county. Mr. MITCHELL moved further to perfect the words proposed to be, stricken out, by inserting after the word "whom," and before the word "shall," the words "including one of the justices of the supreme court." Mr. M. said it was manifest, from the terms of the re ort, the supreme court might become a sinecure. They mright hold the Court in Bank no where else but in Columbus, and there was nothing to require the attendance of these justices, ulpon the distr ict courts, without the insertion of these words. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, did not know but that the object of these judges would be to avoid the performnance of their duty. But their duW~ would always require one of these judges to be present at every district court; and if a judge refused to performn his duty, he supposed he would be amenable to the General Assemnbly by way of impeachment. The only objection he had to the amendment was this; pos sibly one of the judges of the supreme court assigned to hold a certain district court might be sick, and unabl e toed a ttend, and it seemned to hint that, in such an event, the people ought not to be deprived of the benefit of the court. Mr. MITCHELL would like to know how a judge could be impeached for such a nieglect, unless his duty were specifically laid down, either here or by the Legislature; and it could not be linowni whether the Legislature would do this or not. If the difficulty sug. gested bv the gentleman fromn Geauga should occur, i would be a good excuse against the reqtiiremPnt of th Constitution; but they could not be iindeached fort neglecting to attend on the District Courts, withou. the existence of a positive requirement of that service On notioni by Mvir. EWART, the Convention now took a recess till 3 o'clock, P. M. AFTERNOON SESSION. THREE O'CLOCK, P. M. The question pending being on agreeing to the motion of Mr. MITCHELL, to insert after the word "whom" these words, "inceluding one of the Justices of the Supreme Count,," on which motion Mr. MITCHELL said: Sir, I now propose to (,xamine as closely and as candidly as I caIn, the system for a Judiciary here proposed, and in doing so I do most sincerely hope I may be able to avoid giving offence to any one. I do it, sir, alone as a sense of duty; not for the purpose of differing with any gentleman, especially the highly respectable and able gentlemeni whlo compose this committee. It is manifest, seir, that a number of these gentlemen feel as though any attempt to change this report, was an attempt to affect them personally; and they seem to take it more orless as a personal attack. Now, this is not right. Gentlemen ought not so to regard the oyp~sers (f their proposition. I know not what may Le the feelings of others, but for myself I can say, I entertain no such feeling. On the contrary, the gentlemen who compose this committee, are gentlemten for whom I have the highest personal respect. I also cherish the same respect for their opinions, that I do for those of other members of the Conventioni. Neither have I any attacks to make upon their miotives, in their advocacy of the principles of this report, proposing, as it undloubtedlyv does, a new system of Judiciary. I believe them to be gentlemen actuated by right motives. I have yet feen no resort which I should onitsider reprehensible, or calling, in a ny manner, for the slightest imputation upont t he motives by w hic h they are governed. But men will differ in opinion. We differ here-perhaps very essentially. But that is nlothing very strange. It is an exceedingly rare thing, to find two who can agree with reference to any matter upon which they may be called upon to think and act; and it is a thing inuch more rarely to be met with, to find twvo mlsen agreeing exactly upon every topic. There are some of the gentlemen of this committee with whom I act in a great nmanly things, and still differ in st-me; and there are others with whom I have differed widely fromn the beginning; but the last thing I should ever think of, would be to impugn the correctness of their motives. A differ. ence of opinion is a common, an inevitable occurrence in all human affairs. And whilst we accord to others the right-to entertain such opinions as they please, we claim for ourselves the same privilege, without becoming the subjects of bitter and angry feelings. I trust, therefore, that in the share which 1 myiay take in this discussion, I shall not be supposed to be actuated by anything. but those high considerations of duty which are binding upon us all. I beg leave to say, 377 378 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-W -:DNESDAY, JANUARY 22. '-business, all contributed to swell the dockets of the c ourts, and necessarily occa sion delays. But the fact is, we could not absolutely prevent t h e delays ofjustice, without making a very rigi d and usn satisfactory judiciary-a judiciary that would not ren - der reasonable justice in m any cases. The opportunie ty of appeal-taking cas es from one court to another, is very often taken advantage of, merely for the purpose of obtaining further time. In this way no doubt, many cases are brought into the supreme court, which would not come from any other cause. I will venture the assert, ion here, Mr. Prlesident, that you may let the supreme court alone, after you have cut offall appeals from them, as you have now done; and in less than five years they will be able to try all the paper cases which may be broughtbefore them, up on your present plan. That may be too strong a statement. But this is certain, that the supreme courts are what you may call catching up with the business upon their docket. I might venture to appeal to my venerable friend on my right, [Mr. HITCliCOCK of Geau ga,] to tell us whether this is not the fact. Mr. HITCHCOCK assented. Mr. MITCHELL. Well, if this be the fact, all you have got to do, is to let the supreme courtalone; and it will be able to administer justice with as little delay as any other system which you may be likely to adopt. But I do not desire to be understood, as advising to leave the Supreme Court precisely as it now is. I de sire to relieve it fromn two embarrassments; one is, the trial of capital offences, anld the necessity of hold ing but one court at a time in the State. For the re rcedy of the latter, I would give them another Judge, so as to enable them to hold courts simultaneously in two places in the State, and also to allow them s(?ne opportunity to attend to the ordinary affairs of life. Give to them these two modifications, and go upon the principle settled in the statutes, and the Supreme Court will soon be entirely relieved, and fully ade quate to all the demands of the State upon such court. I will tell the genitleman from Iairiilton, [Mr. Gaors BECK,] that we will give him a court for six months in the year, and then do all the business in the residue of the State on such a plan. I have no doubt that a large amount of business has accumulated in Hamil ton county, where, I am told, there are courts sitting almost the entire year round, from which, doubtless, all the time, business is going up to the Supreme Court. And hence here may, indeed I may say must, be a large accumulation of business in the Supreme Court. But there is another cause of this accumulation and delay of business, which lies far deeper than any to which I have referred, and it is one toward the remo val of which this Convention can do but very little; still, it has long existed, and has contributed more than anything else, perhaps, to bring about these complaints of delay. This is the unusual prolixity which is indulged in the examination of witnesses, and is in the argument before the court and iury. This, in ny opinion, is the great cause why the busi ness upon the docket of the Common Pleas has accumulated to the extent it has. Another cause of delay, allied to this, is, that the Commnon Pleas Judges, for the last sixteen or twenty years, havre relaxed very much in their rigor and business energy uponl the bench. They have allowed too tmuchl time to be occupied with calling over arnd passing cases —spending time in calling the docket, when they ought to be tryinlg cases. Chases and points made fn the progress of causes, have o)ften been allowved to lbe argued two, three, or four times, instead of once. It has been ins that in any attack which I make upon the report, I am not actuated by any of those motives which have been imputed to others. I make no opposition for the purpose of rendering this report more odious. I shall support the present amendment, but with no such object as that. I shall support it on account of the fear which I have that this ar ticlewill be adopted as it is. Therefore I desire to improve it as far as I can. I propose to show, as far as I am capable, to the members of this Convention, that the Judiciary sys tem recomnmended by this report, is utterlvy inadeq iate to the attainment of the end desired-that is, bring ing about a systemn of Judiciary which shall admin ister justice with more speed and certainty than the old system. For the purpose of a proper examination, the ae ea int course of every intelligen t mind would be, first. t o inquire what is now the evil. Because, it would be a very foolish thi ing- very id le, and unbecoming the dignity and gravity of th is Convention, to propose some new scheme of Judiciary, (for this is a new scheme,)with out, at t h e same t ime, a ttempt ing to remedy s ome specific and acknowl edged evil existing in the old one. We all agree that evils d o exist in our present mode of administering the laws; but perhaps w e do not all agree in the opinion what these evils are, justly at tributable to the system of Judiciary which wee h ave had. I, sir, for one, think that it is not the system that is chargeable with those evils; and I maintain, further, that it, is not the system of prac tic e that is charg eab l e with these evils. And I defy any man to point out and show to an intelligen t mind, that it is th e existing system o f Judiciary, w hich is chargeable with those variou s delays of which complaint is made, and I admit ju stly m ade, and then show, at the saIe timre, t hat the system here proposed in its pl ace is entirely clear. Gentlemen may make a show in, which might favorably impress a s up erficial mind; butt wh en t he m atter Comes to be sifted and considered, as all matters should be here, it would appear that the syste m is v ery far from providing against those delays. Sir, this is a thing which can not be (loie whilst the evils exist which have caused these delays we a re now complainhing of. I say, then, that the evil is not in the Judiciary systemt. I a ssert here, what ever y well informed w rild in ae wl attutl the State will accord, that until the las t thirteen or fouirteen years, we have Ilot heard any coimplain ts of unreasonable delay s in the administration of justice. We had the s ame system before that t ime which w ae hav e now; and, for my part, I never heard of delays in our courts of justice being so great an evil, a s to be a common subject of remark, till within the last tw el ve o r fourteen years. This is a consideration which shoul ded lead any la n to doubt whetiher those evilis are justly attributable to the sys tern. Still it migh t be so. But I m aintain that it is not so; and I unaintnain, further, a i that if those evils are attributable to the system, you ha ve not provided here a means by which they can be remedied. I maintain that the causes of delays in our courts of justice are various; that they are attributable not merely to one, two, or three, but to a very great variety o f causes; one of which is t he suoden and unexpected increase of litigation in our day. Every hne knowsi that about the year 1837, an unusual amoun~t of litigation sprung tops on account of the money and mereanlile embarrassmrents of that year and the year following. The result of that calamity, if we may so call it, was to throw into the court of common pleas a very large amIount of collection business; and this, together with the natural increase of population, and 1 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATEq —WE:NES)DAY, JANUARY 22. these ways that our courts of justice have got behind with their business. But another cause of delay, has been a change in the moral character of the people, and in their pecu niary circumstances. There has been observable, lat terly, a greater tendency to litigate everything to the extreme, than formerly. Mlen have become much more able to employ counsel and incur the expense of liti gation; and in doing so they have engendered in the community a litigious spirit-a spirit of contesting everything with more zeal than prudence. Th,re a'9, naany oth;er cases promsuc ng tl ens embar rassments and delavs in the courts, which I need not stop here to notice None of which, however, are in anyway chargeable uponi the organization of our couarts. Now, I will beg gentlemen to go back-to go to facts which lie in thepast-ard examine, for themselves, and see what are the real causes of this evil, of which uni versal complaint is rimade, and then consider whether they can all, or even any considerable prop)ortioni of them, be refe rre d to any peculiar orga nization of the c ourt. And here, I will make this remark, that not a romani upon thi s floor, has yet under ta ke n the duty of pon inting, out what it is in the organization of the courts wh ic h has necessarily induced this state of thiegs. A mong st these causes of delay, ther pe are yo ur long juiy tr ials; and then, the large nur mber of new t rials, which the"courts, in many instances, ar e compelled to grant. This latter, is anotlher reason why the common pleas courts have been so much burdened, of late. Cutting off appeals to the supreme court, has had the effect to induce the corrmm-on pleas to grant new trials, with much greater liberality. And now, I ask gent!lemen to point out the peculiar features in the organization of the courts, which neces sarily brings about these delays in the administration of justice, with a view to apply the proper remedy. Would you be willing to stop jury trials? Would you be willing to restrict the examination of witnesses, by restraining tile right of lawyers to raise questions in relation to the character of evidence! Would you pre, vent a man front introducing all the evidence which his counsel might think ought to be introduced? Cer tainly you would not. No man would pretend to ad vise any such thing. Yet these are principal items in in the causes of the delays comiplaiined of. You h,,ve not indicated anything in your report, like a rule to restrain the practices above referred to, on the part of the counsel and the court. Yet gerntlermieni tell of great expedition that is to be obtained in the trial of causes, under the proposed system. Now, in heaven's nai-e, pray do tell in what this expedition consists. I have been told that, by this system you are going to cut off a great deal of business from some of the courts. You are going to create a new court, for the probate business now done in the common pleas. Wrell; what amount of business will that take away from this court? Simply the matter of granting letters of administration, - andl of appointing and remioving guardians, &c, I will venture to say that not one-twenity-fifth part of the time of this court is now taken up b,r attending to this branch of their duties. A large share of this business is done by the associate judges off the belnch; or else it is referred to the some master, which is perhaps more Commron. Tohen, in point of time, this advantage to the court of corn1 mon pleas must be exceedingly smnall. Bult it is said that you are going to confer ulpon this probate court, a much larger amount; of jurisdiction t ask then what additionat jurisdiction is pro osed? what is proposed in the report,? N~ot what is prom ised on debate. We mu:~st take the case as it stands upon paper-in the bill; and the amount of relief which you there propose, is the amount of relief which you have a right to claim that you are affording -and no more. But let us now turn to your common pleas court, and see what change for the better yo u are mtaking. You propose to hold this court) by a single judfhe. You propose to hold it as often as you now do. You propose to give its jurisdiction of tie samne kind a nd the same amount of business, with a ve r y slight ex ception. And you propose to increase its laboring capacity a very little. 5ou pr se, in stead of athe present numbe r of twenty-two cobnmon pleas judiges, and judges of conmmiercial ai:- to.;- e...... elect twenty-seven hereafte r; and i t is only to that extent that you propose to add to their laoring ca pacity; and this increase of the n umber of the jrtlges, I maintain, is no more than what is demanded b y the regular incre a se of business. Now let us see whether the proposed syst eme wil l afford any grea te r business facilities, than the old one. I am proceeding upon the hypothesis, that this court i s to be charged with similar causes with those which have e ngaged t h e m heretofore, excepting only the m atter of granting letters of admimistration and appointing guardians. I have s tated above, all the relief you propose to give this court, and I am utter lWy unable to se e, what spec ific additional b usiness ca pacities you have by th is report added to it. Now, sir, look at what is pro posed to addo o the labors of this court! Nothing less sir, than all the duties o f the Supreme Court- you might a s - well s ay, all; be cause the thee e judg es of common pleas, sitting i n this appellate or district court, can decide all causes jus t as well-aand better, so far as time is concerned than if you throw in a supreme judge to sit with them. How is this system to o perat e upon the co mmon please' You propose to divide ei htv-six counties leaving out the county of Hamilton-into eight ju dicial circuits. That would give to each circuit al most e leven counties, on an average. Then y ou have t hree common pleas judges to e ach circuit. That would give three counties a nd t hree quarters to each judge-we will say four, making this allowance for new counties, and for the sa k e of illustration. And take the common pleas business as it now is- four weeks tot a term, and thre tterms fo r the year-.-ives forty-eight weeksoi h of the year to be occupied by each judge in holding these courts. Now where is your time for holding the supreme c ourt? You have but four weeks of the year left. Every man knows that there are many c ounties of the State where a four weeks te rm will not be sufficientr for the business. I live in a county whie re it will not do: atnd the same is th e case in the county above me on th e north,-and there is hardly a county within the ra nge of my practice, which will not require more th an t welve weeks of the sittings of common pleas in the year. Then I ask gentlemen to cons ider carefully, ahid ans wer to themse-lves, this question: What additional means are you affording to the common pleas for the discharge of their duties, which are now so arduous? How is it possible, then, for this system to relieve the people from the sad evils of which they complain? I maintain that it cannot. I maintain that, if relief is to be attained at all, it wvill not come through the adoption of this system, and, if this system bring not the remedy, in the name of heavten, why adopt it? Now, I ask attention to this, for no gentlemnan has met this view of the case. No man has spent his time here, in showing how this thing is to operate here to produce this most desirable relief. Relief is what the people want —relief from the nine hundreds, and the twelve hundreds of cases, which are nwow turn-: berinlg their court dockets, and which amount to a 376 3S80 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEIENEsDAY, JANUARY 22. prohibit-on of justice. The people want these cases wipcJ (ff, and if you adjourn this Convention, sir, without devising and adopting something which shall promise tiiis result, they will be disappointed, most sadly disappointed and chagrined, and the works of our hands will meet with a people's execration, and not their approval. I now ask thle attention of the gentleman from Trum-bull, (Mr. RANXEY,) and the gentleman from Mo11tgoniery, (Mr. HOLT,) to this thing, and beg them to look the suibject straight in the face. If they will do so, they cannot charge these evils upon the systeti ofa practice w e now, and always have had. Sir, the rules of p actice contemplate that, at the second termn, you shall get your judgment. The practice is respoisible for delay only to that extent-not one day longer. Then how can you, as candid and reasonable n-men, charge these delays, of which you complain, upon the s,ystemin of practice, any more than your antagonists and mine, can charge it upon the present judiciary system. You cannot, I maintain, with ainyi show of prfpriety. Why, then, attempt to lug into this discussion, at every turn, your wild and airy schemes of law reform, as you are pleased to call it. The practice which i we have adopted is no more the cause of e,ibariassment and delay in the business of our courts than the system you insist upon would be. I ask these gentilemen to show what there is in the present ~y-stein of practice, to delay an action any longer than the second term, except the right to continue t,he cause, and to have a hearing upon demurrer? I suppose they would not take away fiord the parties either of ihese riehts, niior the right to have another hearing iii a superior court, nior the right to another trial. None of these rights are proposed by them, or their svsteim, to be taken away. No, sir, the system they are so p ofounaiodly in love with-the famousNrew York svstei o-hias them all. Then i it is not thie practice,nor the system of judiciary ou have, mhich can be re jarded a s the cause of those amenytable evil s. It mu st be so m ething else, and I haivt just been endeavoring to show, what the real causes ar:e. And, if I am right, sit, in this showing, g the Convention cannot entirelty relieve the courts of these evilr, for I think it nmost manifest that this Convention cannot adopt any positive system of judiciary, whvlich would act positively upon many of these evils LStill, it is cerraiily the duty of the Convention to go as far as it can toward affording relief. No change, I maintain, in your judiciary system, as a mere system, will do this. Your present one may, with a few changes, prove just as good as any. You provide for nine districts-have you provided for any more? I am not advised. Mr. STANBERY, (in his seat.) More can bermade by the Legislature. Mr. MII'CHELL That's very well. For this is certainly art essential feature, for a system of judiciary in a country like this. In a new countrv, with comparatively a sparse population and limited business, such a system should be capable of expansion, so as to meet the wants of a growing community. I maintain that the great defect in the old system, is the want of this very principle, as applicable to the Supreme Court, and the want of a disposition on the part of the Legislature, to relieve the Common Pleas, by tile appointmeait of a competent number of judges. The people, looking at the evils which have overwhelmed the Supreme Court, seem to have forgotten that the greater evil existed ill the Court of Common Pleas. No uncommon error with frail, erring man. But it is claimed that you are going to obviate this difficulty. H~ow, I ask, are you goinlg to do it? Point out, I demand of you, the particular manner in which Tyour syste m i s t o d o this, inevitabl y d o this. Ifa ceause is to ben, itt conti nued, it must b e cottirue d according to your plan, for oee year. I ask you to tell me, if th is system, as at present awlrangd, is cab )ible tof affording time to hold more than one session of the district Court in a year? I challenge you to show me how it can. I maintain that X our judges cannot even hold so much acs one session a, year, because the Common Pleas will take up every hour of their tinme in many of their circuits. The inevitable result of' he famos t f a vorabl e estimate, is, that you will have but one term of the district Court in a year, and I am stiur,you would have to diminish th e treat ber you requise f or a quorum, in order to allow that. What could be alotle by the threejudges fof Harnilton county? Tlhey have, I am told, some three thousaha d castes befo re them, an d wno now actio n can expect a judgment muchh short of three years. Now how are he thes e judgesr goinig to find time to hold a district Court? I tell genitletm)en, that in order to answer the expectations of the people, a dif ferenit system must be adopted. The gentlemaY n from Hamilton, who addressed the Convention tlis morning, (Mr. GROESBECK,) alluded to some of the causes of litigation, but if the gentle man had spent hlis titne in showing how this system would remove the evils which he described, and justly too, at the outset of his remarks-; that is, h ow t he sys tem would secure the judgment when tce pacties wou ld be entitled t o it by the rules o f practice,-instead of descantitig, truthsfully to bei s ure, a bout the ca u ses o f litigation his effort wouldd have been ieiore to th e point. But lie did no t even attempt such a tnih n g. And I do not blame him. For i eoape of the older advocates oelr this report-(he is comparatively a younmeo manai)-not eve n t he gent leman from Geauga, (Mr. HITCHCOCK,) nor the gentlepman from Franklin, (Mr. STANBERY,) have yet attete mpte d this. Ad why h ave thev not? elark, Dorsey, Ewinlg, Farr, Forbes, Gillette Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hawkins, Hendlerson, Holt, Hootman, Htumphreville, Hunt, J ohntsort, Lar will, Leech, Leadibetter, Manion, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, Orton, Patterson, PeckJ Perkins, Quig. ley, Ranney, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, ~mith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, 8tickney, Stidger, Swift, Taylor,'lhompson of Shelhy, ThompsonL of Stark, Towshrsend. Warren, Woodburv and PresIXent —53. So ths Mmotion lo adjourn was disagreed to. 401 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MOMDAY, JANUARY ~7. S$C. 7. Tie jiid(es of tile severtal (ouirts of lihis state, shall receive for tiei!r servires such compeinsationi as niay. f om. t ikte to ti )e, ie ovied l)y law; irespect eiig alwvays ihad, to t'o e ex been)? {,f. ];vi'i,r. &e.,n1 tile dfwferent l!-clIitie, ill wh-~,h the.;4 'vi s.!e ril i d, avitich strati i).t lesa I' jct.1i) aiy a ur; atioye e'ilip.~ tle comp.,,en,sationi of anly iuctitiil,,elet at the timle. Src. 8. Til, jt,d~.s of al i tnferior tri),i,a's of julstice, shial ba s,,',jaet lo re,noval oa loen,aint dilly made befor-e thecour,t of!o,Imen,~1 -a-, in slash miiannier as shial he pres,,ilmed by law. SEC. 9. Thiere shall he eleted( ill ear'h cou,,ty of t!)is stale, one cle!rk fell the court of plea., al-(2 sulch other clerks, for this or other couirts, as the G:m,'a! Asseinbly shal. lay law p:ovid(e. S Ic Cier-ks to re.eive suleh clmesati(), atlnl le sulb ject to remova!, ill stcIh ma:.,e as may l)e prescr-ibed by) law. So the motion tho twate a rebesccts was disagreed to. Trhe question then being on recomimitting the Report of the standing committee on the Judicial Deplartmenit and pending amendments to the standing committee on the Judicial Department, it was agreed to. Mr. PERKINS submitted the following, which was agreed to: Resolved, "That a select committee of seven be appointed to report a Judiciary Systeni for the consideration of the Convention." Mr. MASON moved, that the Convention adjourn, which was agreed to, and the Convention adjourned until Monday morning at 9 o'clock. c,u r'eolly. Sec. 2. The General Assembly shall prohibit, by law, any person or persons, association, company or corporation now in existence, from exercising the privileges of bauking, or creating, emittinig or putting in chi rcul atioii, aiiy bank notes or liaper of any descrip tion whatever, to circulate as money or currency. Sec. 3. The business of loaning and dealing in mon ey shall be free to all, subject to suchi restrictions as may be provided by law; but no special privileges or exemptions shall ever be granted to those engaged in, or who may hereafter eingig in such business; nor shall any person or persons, either natural or artificial, ever be allowed to deal in or issue paper money, so called. Mr. LARWILL said that a large number of copies of this Report had been printed by order of the ,oni vention, and circulated through the State. This h ad be en done, as he understood it, for thie'purpose of placing the question of "Bank" or "No Bank," dis tinctly before the people; and as far as he had had an opportunity to observe, there was but one opinion upon the subject, amiong members of the Democratic party; and many Whigs, whom he had met, had ex presser- themselves in favor of an exclusive metallic currency. It is true, that in other parts of the State, sonme differences may exist even among Democrats, but within his own observation he had met but ono opinion. There are other reports, which have come from the minority of this committee, dissenting from the opin ions of the majority, and assigning reasons for such dissent. In this maiiiner, the whole question lhas been placed before the public, who have had ample opportu. laity to form an opinion upon its merits. The discus siolis in the Legislature also, have aided the people in settlinig the mnerits of the question in their owl) mind, so that we have no right any longer to look upon it as an open one. I diai not rise, Mr. President, to enter at length into the discussion of the merits of this bill, but merely to state my conviction in general terms, of the correctness of its provisions. Mr. CASE'of Lickintg,) merely desired to remark, thiat many gentlemene had expressed trdetire to take a directvote upon thebillas reported. For this purpose, he had no objection to withdraw his amendemenht, with the understanding, that he would offer it again, in case the report was not sustained. He would, also, beg leave to state, that he was not entirely satisfied with the amendment, which he had offered, but would, at a pro per time, move to amend it in such a manner, that the vote should be stated upon the ticket-Hard Money Sections, No.-Halrd Money Sections, Yes. Mr. CHAMBERS would remark, that he believed with the gentleman from Wayne, [Mr. LARWILT,,] that lhe people have arrived at well settled convictions upon the subject o! the currency; but hlie did not believe, they had arrived at the conclusions stated b,y his friend from Wayne. He was not, however, going back into the h-istory of the past, for the purpose of tracing up the history of the currency of the State, nor was lie desirous to enter into the di s cus sion upon the merits of the report, at present. He would say, however, nlow, that he was opposed to all this humbuggery about ba(ird money, onlstitutional currency, and a circulation made up exclusively of gold and silver coin. The State had been born under the system of credits; it h~ad grown up under its system of credits, it owed its rapid growth to {:redit; axl its pulbitc, and most of its private imnprovemen ts, had been the result of credit; and he saw noreasonl for an attempt to dispense with so imnportant an NINETY-EIGHTH DAY. MONDAY, Jan. 27, 1851. 9 o'c,lock, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by the Rev. Mr. Mitchell. Mr. CHAMBERS presented a petition from D. P. Mitchell and f ifty- two other citizens of Mushingitc rn countv, praying that a clause be inserted in the n ew Constitution, prohil,iting the Legislature from passing any law legalizing traffir in spirituous liquo rs, which w as laid c in the table. Mr.'[tIOMPSON of She lbey, present ed a petition from Marshall Pepper and tlirty-four other citizens of Shelby counity, on the same subject, which was laid on the table. Mr. HARD pre sented a petition from B. T. Locli and forty-ole other ci tizens of lScicto an d Lawrence counties, on the sa me s ubject, wthich was laid on the table Mr. MC(JORMICK moved that the Ccnvenition take up the Report of the s elect committee "on the subject of retailing ardent spirits," which was agreed to. On motion of the same gentlemarn, the Report was conimitt ei to a coritete i te of the whol e Convention. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Cvitontention dook up the Rep or t of th e committee on B"anking and Cur rency with the amendment The, question pending being on agreeing to the amendiment of MNr. CASE of Licking, to-wit: IMsert preceding the first section of the Report.of the stanlding comanrittee o0 Banking and Cuurrn -cy, th e following: That at the sae a time, wh en the votes of the elect or shall b e taken upon he adoption of this Cowsotittntioe, there shall.be separately submitted to there the question of Bdan-kinig in the joil )wirg manner: A separate ballot may be given by every person having a right to vote upon the adoption of this ConistitutioI, to be deposited in a separate ballot [)ox. upon which sshall be endorsed the words *'Hard Mloney," or "Anti-Ilard Money," and if a majority of the votes thus cast and endorsed, shall contain the words "Hard Moiney," then and in that event, the following sections shall become a part of the Constitution, to-wit: See. 1. The General Assembly shall have no power to create or incorporate any Bank or Bainkin}g institutions whatever, or to authorize the makinlg, emission or put I 402 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 27. a Since that time we have acquired California with her mountains of gold. If we may rely on the reports of the amount of monthly consignments of the pre cious metal, in the city of New York, to say nothing p of the vast amount that is brought to this country by private persons, then the old argument of whiggentle men that there is not enough hard money to answer all f purposes of trade, falls to the ground. Sir, the mines of California yielding as they do tons of gold per * mont h t,Pay warrant us in saying that the tinme is not far distant, when a new standard of value will have to be] made for gold; its abundance will lessen its value. Under these circumstances, who will contend for a rag currency. I , Mr DORSEY hoped the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASz,) would withdraw his proposition so, that gentlemen, who wished to give a direct vote upon the report might do so, and that afterwards the amendment wouldbe reinstated. For himself he should vote for the amendment, which is good so far as it goes; but he hoped,that gentlemen who desired to record their votes, might do so to the end that their name might go down to posterity to all time to come, as tile exclusive friends of a hard money currency. Mr. STANBERY wished before he gave his vote upon this subject, to call the attention of the chairman of the committee, (Mr. LARWILL,) to a question as to the true construction of the Report. Hie understood from the chairman, that the purpose of the committee is to establish an exclusive metallic currency, and to banish all paper money from circulation. Now we have two sorts of paper money in circulation in Ohio-the issues of our own Banks and those of other States. Is that object accomplished by the Report as it now stands? Mr. LARWILL. It isproposed by this bill, whe n i t shall be amended in some respects to prohibit the cir culation of all paper both domestic and foreign. Mr. STANBER.Y. The chairman of the com mittee then admits, that this report, as it stands at present, does not do so. Mr. LARWILL. I admit, that it does not. Mr. MITCHELL understood the Report differently The design, so far as he understood it, was to banish all paper money from circulation, in Ohio, and he thought, that design fully expressed in the Report He would not conjsent, that the amendment of the gentleman from Licking,, (Mr. CASE,) sbould be with drawn. He wanted the friends of that propositiona proposition that calls upon the people of Ohio to) violate a plain provision of the constitution of the United States, to make their mark, as he was willing to make his. He was not one of those, that had any fears of the result; but the bare proposition to stibmLt such a question to the people of Ohio, was an act so abhorrent, that he could not bring his own mind to entertain it for a moment. Hie wanted these gentlemen to show,that gold and silver was not the only con stitutional currency, before he would be willing to submit such a question to the people. The constitution of the United States provides, that no State shall enter into any treaty, alliance or confederation: grant letters of marque or reprisal. Now I ask if any gentleman here would vote to submit to the people, a proposition to violate either of these provisions? If not, why will any one vote thus, with regard to the following provisions of the same section of that constitution; no State shall coin money, emit bills of credit- make any thing but gold and silver coin, a tender in pa - merit of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.:Now these provisions, of the constitution, all stand together, and the violat~iona ai(l. He would say, also, that he was opposerl to the amendment of the g e ntleman fro m Licking, and op posed lo troubling the people with any question of t his kind. He Lad no doubt that the people would reject a proposition f or an exclusiv e metal lic currency, by a majority of over 50,000. How has it been in other State s? Wh erever the que stion has been tried, th e people h av e d ecided oo have ban ks; a nd in the State of Indiana, where they have an overwhelming democratic majority, they have recen tly voted to e sta blish a sys tem like our own. Mr. MANON said, that if his colleague, [Mr. CASE,] was goitng to withdraw his ame ndment, fie wanted him t o d o i t now. He wani ted gentlemen to come fairly out, an d if they w e r e determined to refuse to the people, the privilege of v oting upon this question, he wanted to see their names recorded. For his own part, he had tak en th e pos ition before the election, and held it still th at this question s houl a b e submitted t o th e p opul a r vote. Mr. HAWKINS wished t o act upon this question in s uch a mani ver as to show his entire confidence in the wisdom of the people; a nd h e hoped, those who char ged on him and others, a want of such confidence, would now come forward, and submit this important qu e stion t o the popular vote. He thought this subject was prettly well understood by the people, in all parts of the State, and that there would be no danger, but they would act intelligently upon it. He wished to rec ord he poe is ote upon tae referecce of this question, be cause he be;ieved, tha t they had a right to decide such matters, and lie had such confidence in their wisdom, int elligence and integrity, as to be lieve they would decide correct y. He said, there was a portion of the public press of the Sta te, disposed to miserepresent the sentiments of members here. He had f elt some of their attacks already, il regard to another subject, and when the charges had b een proved false, new attacks had been made by the assistance of new falsehoods. He acknowledged the right to canvass his pos itio n and his vot es. 'The author of thes e misr epresentations, is well known to me, anid at some suitable time, I will take occasion to set myself right, and hold him up to public view. I shall vote for the amenndment of the ge ntlem an from Licking, [Mr. CASE,] after it has been mriade as perfect as possible; and if the question shall be submitte d to the people, whatever their judgment may be, that judgmenit I shall chiferfully abide. NIr. LOUDON. I do not know, Mr. President whether I ought to vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Licking, (MR. CAsE,) or not. In the event Ican get nothing better, I suppose I shall have to go for it; but I'desire first to vote directly on the bill. The provisions of the Report accord with my own feelings and opinions, and with those of my constituents. Sir, events have taken place within the last few years, that have demonstrated to my mind, that the oni? currency proper for the people is the currency furnished by the government of the United States, gold and silver. I have been placed sir, by the pattiality of my fellow citizens, in places where it was at my option to vote yea or nay upon the establishment of bank charters, and I always voted nay. The only; argumnent, that ever stunned me, was the asertion of gentlemen of the whig party, that we hadl not enough gold and silver to supply thedemands of trade and cormInetco. But, Sir, events have since transpired, that destroy; that argument, gold and silver is pouring into the country in vast quantities, 60 that there is no longer any] ground to argue, that we shall not have enough of the precious metals. 2? t 9 e 8 I 0 403 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 27. of on,i swoga ilto fnte.Aan pol,wehrte ol uhrz h eea s of one, is aswrong as the violation of another. Again, sir, if a State cannot issue paper money itself, I should like to know a reason either in law or in corn mon sense, how it can confer such power upon an other. Mr. LEECH. Mr. President, I must confess that I am utterly astonished, at the construction placed upon the report of the majority of the committee on Bank ing and the Currency, by the honorable Chairman of the committee, (Mr. LARWILL.) I have the honor to be a member of that committee, and I trust I may be permitted to state, without subjecting myself to the charge of egotism, that I acted no inconsiderable part in framing the report, and that I know, full well, what were the objects of the committee. Our object was to prohibit the creation of all banks in Ohio, in the fu ture-to abolish the present banking system, and to make it obligatory on the Generdl Assembly to enact laws to prohibit the circulation of all foreign bank paper, in this State. And, sir, I can assure gentlemen, that if the report does not cover this entire ground-if it does not provide for all the objects which I have named it was the intention of the committee which framed and reported it, that it should do so. The de ficiency if any exists, was "an error of the head, and not of the heart." But when gentlemen shall ha ve thoroughly scrutinized these sections, I think they will discover that they embrace all I have claimed for them-that the committee have fully secured their objects in the report. M r. P resid e nt, the question now before the Convenp tion, is on the adoption of the amendment offered by the gentle man from Lick ing, (Mr. CASE.) What does that amendment propose? It proposes, in effect, to submit to a vote of the people, in a separate clause of the constitution, he e question of banks-of hard money, or soft money. Now, sir, I am opposed to submitting thi s ques tion to a vo te of the people, in the manner propos ed in thi s amendment, and shall proceed to state, with as much brevity as possible, the reasons which influence me. The creation and regulation of the currency, belong exclusively to the General Government. The State sovreignties are expressly prohibited from interfering with the subl)ject. To prove this, we have. only to, refer to the Constitution of the United Stat,s. That instrument which we have all sworn to support, contains the following express and emphatic prohibition: "No state shall ernter into any treaty, alliance. or confed eTatior,; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; EMIT BILLS OF CREDIT; make any thing but gold and siver coin a tender in payment of debts," &c. The States of this UJnion are prohibited from exercis. ing any of the powers here enumerated. No reasonable man doubts this; and no reasonable man doubts that bank bills are "bills of credit." If, then, the States are prohibited by the Constitution of the United States, from "emitting bills of credit," how can they grant that power to corporations, or banks? A State has no power to do that indirectly which it is expressly prohibited from doing directly. The Government cannot transfer to others, powers which it does not i'selfposses. Does any man doubt this? Thenl, sir, entertaining these views, I cannot consistently support the amendment of the gentleman from fLicking. [ callnot vote to submit the q uestion of banks or no banks to a vote of the people. To do so, would, in my opinion, be virtually submitting to.them the question, for their decision at the ballot-box, whether ~the Constitution of the United States should be valid in Ohio —whether they would authorize the General Assembly of this State to violate that instrument, or not. WVith equal propriety, we might submit to a vote of the people, whethe r they would authorize t he Ge neral As sembly of Ohio, to grant t o co rporation s the power to "ent e r in to any treaty, alliance, or confederation;" or to "grant letters of marque and reprisal," or to,coin money!" And surely no man in his sober senses, would propose so monstrous an absurdity. In the construction that I have give n to the article of the con s ti tution which I have quoted, I am fully sustained by the framers of the instrument the msel ve s, and by some of th e mos t able and distinguished statesmen, wh o ha v e adorned the annals of this Re public. But, Mr. President, apart from the constitutional objections which I have urged, I canno t see the pro priety of singling out the currency que stio n, and sub mitting it, a s a "separate teatt oe proposition," to the popular vote. Wh y not submi t other important questions, in the same mianner? Why not submit, in like manner, the judicial system? Why not submit the subject of Finance and "Taxation?:hy not submit n the subject of Public Debt and Public Works? Why not submit the v exe d question of the Repeal of Charters, to the popular vote? How happens i t, sir, that the currency is the only question which, in the opin qeio h n of certain gentlemen in this chamber, the people are more capa ble of d eci din g correctly, than this Convention? Will some friend of the amedendment norw under considera tion, answe r these questions? Sir, I will not sanction by my vote, a propositio n to single out the curren cy question, and set ip as a target to receive the united and concentrated fire of the enem ie s of the constitutionalc urr eny-the bankers and the ir allies, the Wh ig p arty. I am firnml y convinced, tha t the greate st enemy of the Democratic cause could no t invent a more i nsidious and iniquitous scheme to promote the objects of the foes of a metal lie currency, than that which is embraced in the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Licking. Mr President: I do not p ro pose, a t pr esent, to ent er into aby arguvlest to eo proe that gold an d silver is preferable to a paper curre ncy; nor do I ctonside r it necessary to do so. The subject of the cur rency has attracted the attention of the people o f this State, and has occupied a very conspicuous position, in the pub lie mind, for a number of years past. It has been ex tensively discussed in public and in private, through the press, on the stuinp, and in our Legislative Halfs; and if gentlemen are not now prepared to act uponr it, they, I fear, will never be prepared. Our path of duty in relation to this subject, is plain. The history of the banking system, in every country on the globe, where it has been established, is the same. It presents but little else than one continued scene of swindling, and plunder, and robbery, and ruin. In the language of the immortal Jefferson, "it has swept away, in its progress, the fortunes and the morals of the people." I am opposed, sir, to all banks of issue, and am in favor of the constitutional currency of gold and silver, ,,the currency which defrauds no man." I believe, with Thomas Jefferson, that "banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies" —with Daniel Webster, that "paper money is the most effectual of all inventions to fertilize the rich man's field by the sweat of the poor man's barowi" and with Andrew Jacksoln, that'a paper currency is a great curse to any people, and a particular curse to the laborers of any country." And, finally, sir, I believe that the paper money system i~s "is the dreadful scourge of the ninetee, th century!" Mr. MANON. I ask that the proposition may be submitted to the people, and I would inquire if this was not the ground taken by the Democratic party, 404 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 27. and the Democratic papers, before the election? Did not Samuel Medary declare himself in favor of submitting this question to the people? If the majority of the people want banks and the paper currency, I can live under it; if they want a hard money currency, I can live under that, too. But, sir, I may be told that this issue was made and decided at the elections of last spring. That was not the case, sir. I denied it then, and I deny it now. I was myself a free bank man, vet I declared myself willing to go for a proposition to submit the question of bank or no bank to a direct vote of the people. As to the Democratic platform of the 4th of July, it was never recognized as of any authority in my county, and the Democratic papers there refused to publish it. Mr. LEECH. Did both the Democratic papers in Licking county refuse to publish the hard money resolutions of the 4th of July Convention? Mr. MANON. The most popular Democratic paper-the ore having the greatest circulation in the county-refused to publish them. Mr. LEECH. Does not the paper which refused to publish the resolutions belong to a bank stockholder? Mr. MANON. I believe it does. Mr. LEECH. Al! that explains the matter! Mr. STANBERY did not understand precisely the g-round taken by the gentlemen from Knox and W,ayne. lie understood them to say, that under the Constitution of the Urited States, no State is authorized to issue bills of credit, and that the creation of a bank violates that provision as they understand it. Those gentlemen'also maintain the doctrine, that every man has a right to construe the Constitution as he understands it. Yet these gentlemen are not willing to allow the people to exercise and express their opinion upon the constitutionality of this proposition. Mr. MITCHELL would ask of the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. STANBERY,] a question, to which hle required a categorical answer. if the proposition, whetl decided either way, shall provide that some thing unconstitutional shall be done, would you record your vote to submit such a question to be voted en by the people. Mr. ROLL desired the indulgence of the convention, while hlie stated briefly the reasons, which would im- M pel him to vote against the proposition of the gentlemnan from Licking, (Mr. CASE.) The proposition is il effect, to submit to the people, for their decision by popular vote, the question Bank or no Bank. For one, he had always been willing to submit such questions to the people, in cases where the people had not acted upon them. But he believed in this case the people hI?ad already decided; and that they had declared their opposition to every thing in the shape of Banks. Our position, that is the position of myself and my colleagues, as representatives of Hamilton county, is fixed. But it maay be said, that we are not only represen tatives of the county of Hamilton, but of the state at large. Well sir, tle people of the state at large have spoken, and tltey have asseited the doctrine of "Hard muoney;" that dctrine they declared at the convention, which nominated the present Governor of the state. At the convention holden upon the 4th of July following, it was again proclaimed; and finally by the election of Governor Wood, it was confirmed byt a decisive vote of the people. Mr. President, I am opposed to a paper currency of any kind, and in favor of that species of currency M which speaks for itself. Its standard, is its own value, needs no representative, and contains no promise to pay. But gentlemen say, we are not able now to enter upon a system, whlich shall exclude paper credits, that t he busin ess relations of th e country an d commercial affairs, have become so mingled with it, that it cannot be taken away without great injury to those interests. Mr. President,in the nam e of God,ifit cannot be done now-,when can it be done?! As well an inebriate migh t say, th at he coul d no t s top drinking, because of the l oss of st re ngth, he would incur by so doing. And I say, Mr. President, as one of the rep resentatives of one of the l argest commercial counties in the state, that if there is a reason, why banks should. exist anywhere, that reason applies with the most force to Hamilton county; but if Le bad seen, as I h ave, the di stre ss wh ich has res ulted from th e pa - per currency, he w ould with all his po wer, resist the establishment of any banking system in future. I have seen the laborer go home at night with a dollar note in his pocket, with which he intended to buy provisions for his family, to be told, when he presented it at the market in the morning, that it was worthless. I have seen poor men, pressed by their necessities, endeavor to pass this spurious currency at one third of its face. Here is where this question affects the interests of the masses of the people-not the speculators, not the dealers in real estate, not the extensive merchant and manufacturer, but they who have little, who lay that littler by to-day, to supply the wants of to-morrow, and who find themselves disappointed. I am aware, Mr. PRESIDENT, that this question seems to call more directly upon the'exercise of party feeling, than any other, which has been before us. I do not wish to arouse in this Convention any sentiment of a mere party character, but I cannot refrain from expressing my views upon the subject. I do not believe the people of the State, if called upon to vote directly union the question, would say, that banks shall any longer exist, or that paper currency is, in the present condition of things, necessary to supply any ex. isting wants of the people For myself I am a hardi money man. I prefer to handle the standard of value, rather than its representative and my experience has led me to believe, that this principle once adopted, will never be departed from. Mr. QUIGLEY, said he in part represented a constituency in favor of a metallic currency. He was in favor of it himself, and so he had declared at the tine he was nominated. The subject of hard money had been agitated in his county, and the people had been called upon to condemn the acts of a representative from his district, who had voted in the Legislature for the charter of a bank. On the election of a represenitative recently from that district, he had inserted a card in the public papers, in which he set forth that he was in favor of hard currency He was elected by a large majority. If any thing was to be inferred from this expression of the popular will, lie felt bound to sustain the hard money system. He should do so, and if he should not succeed in securing it, he would take the next best that offered. Mr. REEMELIN. The question now is whether this proposition shall be separately submitted to the people. I hope the gentleman from Licking will now inform us whether he intends to withdraw his amendment, so that we may either discuss the provisions of the bill, after we have discussed the merits of his proposition, or that we should vote upon it) and that it should not be withdrawn. Mr. CASE,'of Licking. I will withdraw it at any time to suit the convenience ofe gentlemen, who desire to record their votes upon the bill. 405 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Mo),-^AY, JA,NUARY Q7. that the State has no power to emit'il!s ofcredit, or we are not. We a3re, eithe r righit, when,.i we taike our stand by the sid.e,'f Wah~ln ~~ds n lefra and Jackson, anid otht.r heroes ol ther. v~to m fathers of the r-pu ltic. ini asserthutg the.acred hes9s of tile Constitutioti of th United State, or we are not. if the Legislatui e of Ohio bas power to i)onif o tGa estdblishaing a paper currency, let a the so. if oa toi leatn had er, ta poques- th currency oft,.r t c O r((ntrollst d il tile M Aeneral godornot sumthq tiotn let u, not a ttl). in nuplify the United States C ons itutioni by thi te aes iited of paper mowe- wionots, do opso titaion0 to tOi e t,r y moIey a ain ts of t he U enionn. Now, Ali-. Pres,iden~t, a few wY-inds oii,,v tipte. th~e question of bieht. Bfae tohte G istlted oitsfiri o( the -ii ited M.tate s, the p ower over the cuirency is pw-rtd i f- the General Go;'erinienit, anid ini ino otbher i- e Witth the General Governmen~.3t r~ests thie fixi~,ig- of the ~stai,jard of val~e.. Genitleenei canii iinfiict no~,ieep~er,s,, Mupon the seetmosorien (,f the forigdet of the mitea 1iond ofped, tha e Uiette h tiniscy they willredo s oo ignorant of tl~e true principles (if oer,et,m s;o careless of the( welf,-tre- of, the pe,(),ple, as to lav the currency of the cout e t~,,be catrolclcdb each and ever,.y onie of the S tates. ths t(} parcel out a sovrei ntv, wh. ichi shou,ld be, mi onie pl,'ace0 only. Mr. HAWVKIN~S. It the issueC of paper m~nv is expresslyprhbtdfttmC stuinote r{iet Stte, wyprohiblit it, it thre C.'oistit'tttion ol Ohio(> Mr. REEMELTJN. Fiwi the saereason tlI:,at we have law punihin 3N'the olatefiin~ } ati coin, Exeines~w.tatpmthssbe ct States hiave passe,d lasin viola,tionl of the C,(1.stitition of the United Si-tates, adwe. findOhi in, the i-juiiber. It is, therefore, pr-oper-, ha),ving ill view hie, oath'we have taken, th~at w,e shnidedavr)y consti~tutional provision, to r-est,,,~-.o to Ohio tiaa urrencey of the supremte law of the!'d I say, iMvr. Pr-esidenit, the:l[ie p~ over thet- standard value, b o nsto'thre Genieral Governmen t,tand to no oth,er auhrv uhw,teintention of th]e fr-amers of tlhe Un,.ited Stat,es (,oyistit.utif-,i. WhI'at w,ere the fcsup,()wi ch they acted? The,,y lhad before theii) timeape of their ownri country, ani-d of all the ev iswhh, duig the Re(vclton I n for years aftewrs reutdf1 th cotine t a c u reecy-, anid the exe~rcise 4,f the currency po-wer by differenit autli(.,ri-ie..Teyhdbbete the example of Ge,rm-any), w hr, ],ie' very twN~enty-fivemie travel the~lre is a n ew cun'cncv.'TheI(y, -hint~ Ihe exam pie of Ita lv, {,f F,'m lc(,ano'olh clmlltries of Europe, eachl triahn that. (h power o-ve-r tlhe currenc ,should be. vet,ted lo one — place. a,,d t,in one lace only. They, the,re~ft,re. wise-ly estd th e p)we,', ~i the General Governmitenxt. -and'den,ied it t o the Sttes. I do -not s~p~e thatt thei(!re i:, n ief:jx[a th.fs Conivenit-ion, ~:hoi~ -woiild bewilil o lpac ihme.lf in the ab.phets, they set about the work themselves, ands assisted materially to make their predictions true. As oon as, they were driven out of Congress, there were no more faithful allies of the pet banks in the country, than they, 1 should rejoice to see,the whig party get back again to their old principles; for, until they do go back, until they cease to be allies of renegades, until they become, again a party for theriselves, it will be impossible for ine to respect themn. Mr. WORTHINGTON, (in hi seat.) We are pro - gressing. Mr. REEMELIN. You are? Just look at you r lprog ression. Sinllce yonu have fallen from the support of a U. S. Bank, you have been divided amongst y ourselves, and sold out like sheep in t,e narket. You did not, nor do vou now own yourself. In Michigan, you are t he friend s o f banks, erected upon mortgages upon r eal est a te. In New York, you are the friends of banks based upoIn state stoclks. In Ir — diana, you are in favor of a state bank and free tbainking: and in Ohio. you are divided —Dome following in the lead of Alfred Kelly, and sonme followirng after other chiefs. But here stand the hard money dertmo(cratswhere they have ever stoodlhaving ffortheir founda - tion the Constitution of the Uhitred States, fightinginch for inch and they will be sure to conquer-ted riqht, the Constitutionsthe franmers of it, J efferson, Washington and Jackson, are on their side. Yea, the very fates are rapidly turning in their favor. Sir, it is now about five years when a prould thief sat down ill Texas. on th~e Nueces river ill al loog cabin. He there dictatedlto hxis adjutant, a despatcl~ to the Secretary of War, at Washington. In th-sat despatch, the gove-rnmenlt was advised, if it intended~ to have the Rio Granlde as the frontier, it had bletter authorize a forward movement an~d autho~rize a.sehection of somve strong point on that river The chief who dictated, was' General Taylor, the matn who~ wrote was M;4sjor Bliss. The suggest~ion was~ accep result here, as in Europe, of this parcelling out the currency power, instead of giving it unity. I desire here to make a brief reference to the histo rof Switzerland, in connection with this subject 'Cnder the old constitution of that country. each Can ton exercised its own control over the currency. But when they met, about four ye ars ago in convention to frame a new constitution, one of the first proposi tions to amend was to take this power away from the several CantoIls. and confer it u-Don the General Gov ernimen; and I ask ally gentleman to say whether the framers of the new Swiss constitution were not wise inthis? They have adopted the currency of France and an excellent one it is, though not quite so good as ours. The state of the currency is now, in this country almost equal to that which we find in Germany. You cannot travel through the United States with Indiana paper, or Ohio paper, or Pennsylvania paper, without being shaved? Can you travel with New York paper, which enjo ys a pre-emine nce above that of any other State paper, without being s haved? I affirm that yo u c annot trave l from Louisiana t o N ew York, without bein, shaved five or six times. And.is i t for such purpose s, a nd fo r such a state of things, that the whig party han ts ogiven u p its old osition on the United States Ban k question? Is it for this, that that party is now i n a state of uncertainty, halting between Shinplasters, and State Banks and Deposi t B anks'? Is it for this, th at the na tional whig party has given up its national bank, its national currency, and defends State p a per mon ey f actories? Have our whig friends turned warming-panls only for the projects of certain p olitician s on th is side of the chamber. Hav e they n o propositions, no principles of their own? Sir, that questio n was ever the strength o f the whig par ty; a nd t he day when tihey gave up the question of a United S tates B ank an d a national currency, then the strength gntand gloryof the whig party departed for ever. The ni it w as th a t it first began to leak out that th at great part was not guided by any principlethat allte ante ws po they wanted was power, and that renegade democrats coul d t ake them by the nose an d lead them just where they pleased. Chasing power, they have lost their principles, and thus we find the gentleman fr om Franklin, the wwhig leader here, to come over to the a id of his faithful ally, the gentleman from Lick ing, (Mr. CASE,) not to defend his own position, or explain his own vote, but with the direct object so as to give a little bye-play in th e matter, and to strike a blow at m y friends, the g entlem an from Knox, (Mr. MITCHLL,) and the gentleman from Wayn e, (Mr, LARWILL,) He comes in mere l y as a warming-pan to th o se democrats who rejoice in the opportunity they hav e of le ading and coentroeling the whigs, upon this question, at w ill. T hus lo w ha s the whig party sunk,! since it deserted its own standard, and since it had become the ally of renegade politicians? Look at the po sition the whigs have occupied upon thi s qnestion, ever since they were driven from the support of the United States Bank! What is their position, even now, in this Convention? They are the friends of shin-plasters, the friends of State banks, they have been constantly the friends of the pet banks, and of all manner of banks and institutions for bankiiig purposes, and they have been wont to resort to all kinds of tricks for the support of these institutions; and whilst they are as bad as any bodyIv in denouncing the institution that has failed, thev are always foremost in the effort to get up another institution to succeed it. Mr. WORTHINGTON. I would rather hear thie 408 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 27. ted,-the necessary order passed from the Potomac to the Nueces,-the Mexican war came, and thus sir, that despatch gave us California, it made General Taylor President,-it decided that no slave shall ever tread the Pacific,-it has turned to this country the lands of California,-and they are going to settle the currency question. Great things sometimes come out of little things. That single paragraph, which that chief sat down there to dictate. decided more for this country than all the other documents of that war. That paragraph conquered Mexico, took our people to the Pacific, it scattered the Whig party into fragments on this ques.t tion; for the only argument upon which our Whig friends can hope to carry their point is, that there is not enough hard money in the country for the purpose of circulation. That argument is now gone: and as fast as the golden sands of California shall flow into this country, just so fast will come the triumph of Democratic principles, and just as fast will we return to a constitutional currency. I thank God for this historical development, for it shows that, whenever men plant themselves upon any principle in harmony with the laws of human nature, if they but stand to it, the time will surely come which shanl justify them, and show that they are in the right. I thank God, moreover, for the manifestation of another fact, namely: that a political party, however talented and strong it may be, if it shall plant itself upon the wrong, must at everv step but expose this wrong more plainly, and lead it on to certain discomfiture and ruin. Every Whig prediction against us hardmoney men-every one of their predictions with reference to the currency, the tariff, or the public lands have, each and all of them, been proved to be mere pretensions and falsifications; so much so, that now, of all things in the world, they hate worst to be reminded of them. The point which I wish to make is simply this: that the power to control the constitutional currency has, for wise purposes, been intrusted, by the fathers of our General Government, to Congress, and, therefore, no power can be exercised, in this or any other State, except so far as it may be in aid of the Constitution of the United States, and the laws of Congress. We have no right to do anything that will nullify the constitutional currency. Paper money does do so. If, however, gentlemen will show me that we can exercise this power without nullifying the Constitution of the United States, and the law of Congress upon the subject, then I shall be content to see this power exercised. But the experience of the country demonstrates that the exercise of this power, by the States, is an infringemnent upon the Constitution of the United States, and I cannot go with them. I would as soon think of referring to the people the decision of the question, whether the State of Ohio should exercise the power of levying import duties upon goods coming from Indiana or New York, as to refer to them, or any other State, this question of controlling the currency. And, because I take this ground, it need not be thrown up to me, that I have no confidence in the people; for, would even my friend from Morgan, [Mr. HAWKINS,] who this morning gave us a long harangue upon the right of the people to decide this question, submit to the people of Ohio any question as to which his mind might be as clearly made up as mine is, with reference to this? I do not impeach his integrity or his motives, for toting as he proposes to vote, if he believes that this power can be exercised in Washington City and int Columbus at the same time, without public injury.t All I have to say is, that I will hold him responsible, as long as he lives, to the oath which he has taken here to support the Constitution of the United States. If he thinks the control of the currt ncy does not rest with Congre ss, but with the people of the States, let him so act and vote; and, on the other hand, 1 trust, he will not charge me with a want of confidence in the people, because I will not submit to them the decision of a question with reference to what I have not the thousandth part of a doubt that the Coinstitution is conclusive and final. For, I cannot but regard the counterfeiter, and the cashier of a bank, in any of the States of this Union, as both equally offending against the law of Congress and the Constitution of the United States. I am not goinyg to consent to submit the question to the people, whether the Constitu: tion of the United States shall be valid as a Constitution of Ohio, or not. One wo rd more il reference to the question i mme - d iately before us. The o over of this ai mendment, [Mr. CASE, of Licking,] h as intimated his belief that the people of Ohio decided upon this question at the last annual election; or, at least, in his opinion, the Whigs were estopped from denying this fact. I understood him, also, to say that he was himself a hard money man, and others of his friends claim to be hard money men. Strange, however, that any hard money man can countenance this submission of such a question to the people. That is a mystery to be explained hereafter. I would have been gratified if the genileman had shown us how he reconciles such a course with the oath which he has taken here. Sir, I say here, not fearing contradiction, that no man, understanding the power to control the currency to rest with the General Government, can, for a momnent, countenance the proposition before us. Nor will any member of the Convention submit to a separate vote of our people any other question, upon which he is clear in his owi mind. Such, I understand, is the admitted position of all. The consideration has however, been urgednt, that, if we put these hard mone y sections into the constitution it will certainly he defeated. When General Jackson was about to put his hand to his veto of the charter of the U. S. Bank, we are told that the old hero was admonlished by one of his constitutional advisers on this wise: "1 Sir, if that document goes out, you are sure to be defeated next fall." And when the same old hero, put his hand to the order for the removal of the deposits, fromn the U. S. Bank, a prominent member of the democratic party said to him, "Sir, if that order goes out, the democratic party is dissolved-and a similar admonition was offered to him, when he appointed a distinguished democratic Senator as minister to one of the courts of Europe. Genieeral Jacksoni's reply, in all cases, was worthy of the man. "It is my business (said he,)to do right; and subsequently, it is the duty of the people to judge me honestlv." And as General Jackson then declared so should we hard mon. ey men say now. That it is our business here to do right; and being in the right-trust to the people to sustain the right. The man who tells us not to put this thing, or that thinginto the constitution, for fear of popular defeat, while he admits the thing to be right, says, what is tantamounit to a declaration, that the people are dolts and fools. Mr. R. concluded. hy giving a few historical illustrations of the fact, that the democrats had alway ruled the U. S., except when they have been divided and distracted by renegades-making particular reference to the popular demonstration in this city, sustaining the order for the removal of the deposits. He had corn e here to sustain by voice and vote the hard money doc. 409 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, JANUARY 27. trine: and he intended to do so. He cared not for granted, I would have its exercise restricted in the fol numbers. He would rather be right alone, than wrong lowing particulars: with a million. He would vote for what he believe No bank should be authorized to issue below the (le to be right; for hlie trusted unhesitatingly to the peo- nomination of twenity dollars. The private property pie, that they would stand to the right. of the stockholders, should all be held for the redemp. He had now spoken merely of the principle, upon tion of their paper. And thus ill the event, that such a which the report was based. Hereafter he intended to bank charter should be granted by the Legislature, be f ore it should go into operation, it should also go before be heard upon the proposition, that the adoption of thist constitutional currency, and a prohibition of paper the whole people of Oio, for their sanction or rejec money, would advance the pecuniary interest of the tion. With that kind of restriction, Mr. President, I State. would fear no result. But I fear, in the present con Mr. SAWYER moved to amend the amendment, dition of things, if we take upon ourselves the destruc by striking out the words " anti-hard," and inserting tion of the present bainks, it will be throwing upon the in lieu thereof, the word "sroft." new Constitution, a burden which will sink it down, Mr. S. said he desired to make this motion for and so give an advantage to our opponents. Mr. S. said he desired to make this motion for a I would be willing to do this-let a clause be put in double reason. In the first place, the amendment did to ou iuo d thi le e b t to the Constitution curtailing the privileges of the not state the question fairly; and then, as gentlemen presetbak; s o that after a certain period, the knew, hlie was averse to the use of all Latin terms atid psluld issue no otes of a smaller denomina tion than should issue no notes of a smaller denomination than phrases, so long as a corresponding English word five dollars, and after another certain period,theyshould or sentence could be better understood. This word issue no notes of a smaller denomination than twenty "anti," was a Latin word, signifying "opposed to," or dollars; and then, after another certain period, they "fornest," or something like that. Now, if we wereshould issue no notes at all. By the time of the ex to vote for hard money, he wanted to say so; and if piratio-i of those periods, in consequence of the large we were to vote against hard money, he wanted to use amounts of gold which would be flowing in to the the English word which would express that opposition. country, in the mean time, from different sources-not Half the people of the State might not be able fully to from California aloe —I believe, that upon the expiracomprehend the word "anti;" and he desired to put tion of the bank charter, guing out under such esthe matter upon the correct issue.. Whilst lie was wel trictions as these, the people would be ripe for a consuited with the object of the amendment, he could not stitutional currency but regard it, in its present shape, as an insidious thing For political purposes alone, I could wish that the It did not take bold and comprehensive ground Be question of Banks, or no Banks, were left open; besides, this amendment did not point out, and prescribe cause it would be sure to make advantage for the demanything in the event, that a majority of the voters of 1 ocratic party from year to year-so sure am I that the State, should be opposed to hard money. IIn that event, friendsof lard money" will itirratelysucceedin (he continlued,) I suppose we would have to fall back Ohio upon the old system of banking. That, sir, is putting I have said, that every scheme for the issuance of the voters in an unfair position; for I want, when the paper money has been more or less a scheme of swind paprmndy thaberen aore some dlegats ashere fomcrtaind people shall be called upon to vote upon the question, lg ad there are some delegates here fro certain Hard or Soft, I want them to have the assurance. that couiiies of the State, who are familiar with some they can fall back upon some restrictions upon the transcions o this character to which I shall tow transa':clionis of this character, to which I shall now banks. irefer; namelyv; the loss of that sacred fund, which I will tell you what I propose. In my judgment, was placed with the counties for school purposes —I the amendment offered by the gentleman from Miami, mean our share of the surplus revenue of the United [Mr. DORSEY,] is a hundred fold better than this, wihich States. which was placed in the banks for safe-keeping is now before us. I like it also mluch better than the and investment. There are gentlemen here who could proposition of the gentleman from Montgomery, [Mr. give a more correct history of these transactions and HOLT,]althoughheproposedtorestrictthebanksconsid- losses than I am able to do. erably. I, however, would restrict them further. But I A large amount of this money was deposited in that am not prepared to vote for any proposition, till I can immaculate institution the Urbana bank-some 70,000 see first whether we are able to carry the clean, naked, dollars in all were placed in that institution, by differanti-bank question; and for this purpose, I think the ent countity School Fund comrmissiolners; and the first section of the report, would have been all sufficient. whole amount was a total loss; principal and interest. I fear the consequences of proposing too much at once. Then there was also a deposite of some fifty odd thouA few years atgo, and one-half our present propositions sand dollar-s of this fund made in the Fairfield bank, for reform, would have been scouted at, in any deliber- (the correct history of which I presume would be betative body in the State, whilst at the expiration of the ter given by my friend from Fairfield, the Hlion. Presiterm of the present bank charter, I would be perfectly dent of this convention,) which also proved to be a willinig to submit this question to the people, in the} total loss-the bank of Chillicothe going down and with confident belief, that, at that day, they would be per- it the whole of the deposits made by the commissionfectly satisfied, and heartily sick of the system ers of Hocking and Fairfield counties; and the people There never yet has been a system of banking pro, of those counties, as well as of the counties of Logan, posed-except those now ill existence-that has not re- Clark, and Champaign are now being taxed to make salted in failure, and a perfect swindle of the comma- these losses. nity. This has been the case, from the foundation of Mr. GREEN of Ross, (interrupting.) Do I under the world, down to the present titne; and I am perfect- stand the gentleman to say, that all public schol ly sauisfied, that before our present bank charter expi- money has been lost in the baik of Chillicothe. I tell res, the people ~a ill have got enough of all banks. getlemen that not a farthiug of that fund has been t lost by that institution. I tell the gentleman further, I wil tel yu, wat i mysystms I th firt jthat the ban~k of Chsillicothe has paid all its debts. place, I would, after the present bank charters expire, I the bAnk of I sillicotheh itswasbts. have a vote of the people taken upon the questionti a SAW ER if sais l Cilsithe it was ce whether or not, the Legislature shall have authority ltavn, aughte-I lapsa the as if Latiu,.bI to pass a bank charter; and if the authority shall be ak ardon, er. meant thik phrase. ask p~ardou, Mr. President, for using this p~hrase. ,410 ~~~~~~~~~~E- > ~ 04- ~A4-~ bi O - 0 7 = - 4 4'- - -;. - 2' U _ - _ .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Czba C. C. AdXA 4-~4-~-a~'d _,, -, - _ 0.A tv |~~~~Arouiit held E E e, ' Cou tities- F. d oms Naryies of Baniks. j ~ustIsIosifIrnLo.-s of In-, eak.= t=~ Fu5n d~~~'' ~.Com, is,, |'Bnk cl..i. t e A ^_,' 0 - O —~ .Beiiot......$34,363,27| Bel moit b k of St. Cl.irsville,. $13,. $599,37L = lia~ C paign,...'-)5,262,12 Urhna baiia 17,0 0,00.......................17000.22 $17,00)0,( 4 080,0Iteetossisyas gc b e.; g s(,'lark.....27,(193,72, do. d7o........................ 1 27,0935,i2 27,CI93,72i 3.602.49 d do= *25; a._ < - t lrfel....-...... 4-34.'3 6 2i L —iicaster........ 4......1470.17A 41,470,17| 9A952,83 do d _ ~.,.=A a' 0 0 2r:>, 4- 0 A:, *- - a,. o'-" " - - a~~ ~',' Geaug. 28,626,361 eaga................ 2,626.36............ 1 198 27 4 J(,ffCD~~~~~~~' t_Ai I, -, -: i....... 18525;99..........................0- I 65 0 —, 1, l 7.9.',-ol - "-' 0 C' - -- ~ a S 4 0 a -I -'0 0 0. - 0 4 — - $220,009,97 $182,575,72. $120699 39' $29,010,24- * a 5 _ - - | | |r 0 ~ - - - ~ Cr - - -$15423,72 -,-, o,..Da —;- ~,.'0' ~~'a'E ~. 0' ~ -~ Cr~ -..,-.u ~.4 —a ~ ~4- "'~"5 ~>d 4. — ~- ~ 4-a- ~; CrA~ ~ o= I=- S.C -,_ ~'ra - a... l::a —'- - ~ _r ~ —,. a... A "'AA d'' 4 — A - "' ~'"- ~'-;.. 0 -iA a~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~- 4... -.,. 04,-. A...'a . -.0 +. 4 -- 0 ,,J~64.. —.:..,-,.,,..,,,,,.~ Counties. by cotint N:e of-.auks Am o i-. o'~, —L o.n- Rears'C ~. ~a ~' o 'a~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,'- FoiCms aan. i)1 fa 4 — 4" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~;:5_ QD a a'0 > _____ - ~ -' - - 8 i " ~'.0 P ~~ Belmont.........$3436327 Belmoi Amont bnk ofS.CnrvleL384 597 oss f'pin-145aone. of, 6 4- 0Chapin.. 2.6,2Ubn ak............11010s~)o'o 4000 In ert Rosem nyarks., C C ak.......7037 oute. do 2709y7 2county7 Na602es do donks. V~ E0 ~!Funrfed 4o'4ots- B a n k. cipal '.~ Gsang-i 28,626,361' (;'~sia)7gsaer~..........................41 470 171 41,470,17 995283 do do'- p, ~ L,,Be~ognt........$341,363,27 Bemrtbana f S...G...irs..i...e....... 1600 $11,650,00 2,796,00; Losin 145 yaroes.' - ~ e * - (;lar k.....-'-S 7' o d............2,09, 42793,72, 3.60 49 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 0 - - - -- - - - " - - - - --' -d o do.- I-, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ —a4- ~ — Fairfield......43.436'8f~ Lancster....................... 41470.17 41,470,179.952',83iado'd !-,4 i,,, ~ oO ~ :D ;4 01 (.) o ;4 V o E;4 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, JANUARY 27. gress the power to coin money, &c. Congress does but fix the relative value of gold and silver, and the value of foreign coin. The gentleman fromn Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELIN,) has assumed that the issue of bank paper depreciated the value of gold and silver coin and therefore its issue and circulation violated the Constitution of the United States. If this is true, then the increase of gold from California which we hope to realize, would have the same effect, and those who bring it here might with equal justice be charged with a violation of the Constition, because it would not only depreciate, but change the relative value of gold. Are they also violating the Constitution of the Uiiited States? If they are. I must confess it is news to me. The amount of the gentleman's production is, that all the acts and doings of our democratic fathers,from the year 1787, down, have been nothing but an adulterated fornl) of Federalism. They have never yet struck out so much as one clear democratic idea upon this subject. Both representatives and constituents have been mere dolts and fools Before Mr. HAWKINS had concluded his remarks, he gave way for a motion to take a recess, pending which The PRESIDENT, on leave, announced Messrs. Leadbetter, Green of Ross, Archbold, Stanton, Mitchell, Holt and Scott of Harrison, as the Select Committee to report a Judiciary System, under the resolution of Mr. PERKINS on the 25th inst. On motion, the Convention then took a recess. that neay every State in the Union, democratic or otherwise, which has gone about establishing banks; California which we hope to realize, would have the and according to the gentleman from Hamilton, they same effect, and those who bring it here might with -we calle(l the authors of it too latitudinarian in AFTERNOON SESSION. their views, we were strict constructionists. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. Now I certainly was not prepared to expect here, The question pendi, beig on agreeing to the * errs Off i 1 > 1 A we > The qulestionl pendinjg, being on agreeing to the in 1851, after we had so often and so successftilly motion of Mr. SAWYER, to strike out the words combatted this opinion, that ultra democrats would ailti hard and insert in lieu thereof the word "soft." take it upon themselves to revive this old federal no- Mr. LEADBETTER moved, that the report and tion.' For myself. I would as soon put on any of the * 11 1J. Ads1. %r.. 21 1 pending amendments be referred to a committee of other old cloth of federalism, as the princiile that t he the whole convention, which was disagreed to.a i conltrol and regulation of the currency of the country, te whole covento, hich was dsgreed to 1 1. l LG *. w *' ~~~The question then beiing on Mr. S.AwYr.'s amendbelongs exclusively to Congress. For if this betrue, The question then being on Mr. SAY' amend.ment, they have the power to exercise the means of regu- Mr. MANON demanded a division. lating the currency; and if a United States bank is as- The question thed being on striking out the word s 2'. ~~~~~~The question thed being on striking out the words sumed to be a proper means for regulating the cur- "aiti hard," rency, it is plain that Congress has the power to es- Mr MITCHELL demanded the yeas and tablish such a bank. Gentlemen can see how it is M r. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays that their position will lead tlhus into the support of whic bing ordered, resulted —yeas 42, nay 47a follows: that old fashioned federal dogma. Yet this is the fllw position, assumed by the gentleman from Hamilton. YESesr ir, Cl a Cl, ingFrr Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Henderson, ~Mr. REEMELIN. NoSir. Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Mr. HAWKINS. I have got his words down before London, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Quigley, Ran. me. He insists that Congress has the right to regulate ney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sel the currency ot the country; and will he cut themoff lers, Smith of VWyandot, Stebbins St;dg, r, Struble, Swan, f ureyof the meanstry; and winstrument ofgulatig thiema Swift, Thompson ot Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townsfrom the means and instruments of regulating this mat- hend, Wooelbury and P:esident-42. ter. NAYS-Messrs. Andrews, Atcll old, Barnet of Montgomery, Mr. REEMELIN. I admilt they have the right to Barnett of Preble, Bates, BennLett, Blickensderfer, Brown of use right instruments. Nothing further. Athens, Brown fCarroll, C,,sea i Hortiiig, Cas of Licking, Chambers, Coilings, Cook, Dorsey, Fwart, Florence, Gillett, Mr. HAWKINS. I hope the gentleman will get Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, my position. I say Congress i-as no power except to litchcock, of Geauga, Horton, Humphrevile,[Hunter, Johnc)in money, regulate its value, and the value of foreg son, Keniogi, Larsh, Manon, Morehead, Norris, McCloud, c')in ~~~~~~~~~~~son, Kennen, Larsh, Manon, -Morehead, Morris, McCloud, money, regulat it valu, ad t. o Otis, Patterson. Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harriso,. Smi h coin. I say that is the extent of their power over this of highland Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, subject. Warren and Worthington-47. Currency is a term which applies to anything which So the motion was disagreed to. the people choose to constitute a medium of circulation. The question then being on agreeing to Mr. CA Anything habitually used for that purpose becomes sE of Licking amendment, currency. Tobacco was once a currency in Virginia; Mr. CASE of Licking moved to amend the amend. and in Ohio, we have had to use pork, corn and mary ment by inserting after the words "hard money"where other articles for the same purpose. I was not aware, it occurs just in the commencement the words: "sec. sir, that the people of this country, who have been tions yes." driven to this course by their necessities,were violating On which motion Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded the the Constitution of the United States, or that provision yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted-yeas 46. of the Constitution of theUnitedStates that gives toCon- nays 43as follows: 412 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, JANUARY 28. individual or association to pay such demand as the above, for the immediate liquidation of the same, from the proceeds of the securities deposited as above. 7. In case of the failure ot' al individual or any association issuing Bank; paper, the amount of security deposited with th e State, shall first be applied to the redemption of the circulati on of such association or individual, and the remainder if any, shall be payable on demand, to sich associrtion or individual, deducting therefromn, the amount of aly expenses accruing to the State, in the process of liquidating such claims. SEC. 4. The existing banks of this state shall be protected in the exercise of the powers and privileges granted by their charters, until the legal expiration of the same, provision being made for taxing them, as all other property in this state is taxed." 0 n motion of Mr. MITC H E LL, the report and pending arnendmen-ts were laid on the table, Mr. MITCHELL asked and obtained leave to Le excused from serving on the seledt coimmitee on the judiciary. The PRESIDENT anniounced Mr. STIDGER to fill the vacancy in said cotmrhoittee. On motion of Mr. GREEN, of Ross, the Convention adjourned. YEAs —lessrs. Andrews, Archbold Barnet o fMontgomery Barnett of Preble, Bates, flickensderfer, Brown of Athen, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hock ng, Case of Licking,Cham ober, Collings, Cooal, Ilorsey, tEwart, Florence, Gray Green of Ross, Hard, Hamiilton, lawkin Haarlan, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Kennon,..arsh, Manor e, M lorris, McCloud, loash, ()tis' Patterson, Peck, i erliins, Scott of GEarrison, SIm;ith of' Highland. Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Warren, Woodbury and Worthington-46. Nvys —Mlessrs, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clalk Fwing, Farr. Fort~es, Gillett, Greene of D)efiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hen derson, Holmes, Holt, Hootmani, Hunt, Johnson, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter. l,oudon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Quigley, itanney. lteemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith ofV Wyandot, Stebbins, Stidger, Struble,-wan, Swilt,'hompson of Shelby, Thompson8011 of Stark, T'ownshend and President-43. So the amendmene t w as agreed to. Mr. CASE of Licking moved to further amend the amendndment, by inserting after the words " anti hardi roilney" the words "sections no," which was agreed to. The saine gentleman moved to further amend the amendment by inserting after the word "money" in the fifth line the words "sections yes," which was agreed to. Mr. STANTON moved to reconsider the vote, by which the convention refused to strike out the words 'anti hard," which was agreed to. The question then being on striking ont the words "anti hardt," Mr. CASE of Licking moved to amend the amendment by striking o ut the word "anti, " which was agreed to. The questi on then bei ng on striking out the w ord 'hard," it w as disagreed to. The question then being on a gre eing to t he am en dmetio t. av of Mr. CAF, of Licking, as amended, Mr DORSEY moved to amend the amendment by strikitsir out all after the word "Con stitution" in the second line a nd inserting in lieu thereof the follow inlg: "The question of "Banks" or "no Banuks," shall be detel mil ted by a separat e ballot from each voter SEc. 2. If a majority of all votes cast at such election, shall be i n favor of' N o B anks," then it shall be unlawful to make, emlit, or circulate within the state, any paper medium intended or calcu lated to c irculat e a s hmoney. Sec. a3. I f a ma- ority of all the votes cast at each elect ion. shall be in fav or of "Hanks "then the legislature shall. at it s fir st ses ion af ter the adoption of this constitution, providle a Ge neral Banking law embodying the following principles: s. The trad e in money, comprehending th e receiving on deposit and loaning of t'he same, and dealirig in bills of ex change, shall b e op en and free to all. 2. N o perso n sh all be a llowed t o issue any bill or evideuice of debt, to circulate as money, until he shall first have deposited n ni th the Treasurer of Sta te, or such other officer as may be designated by law, a secuaity for the whole amounto isuwic s db of such issue which shall consist of United States st ocks, or stocks of th is state, or such c ounty o r other stockis wityhin thi state, as mey be determined by law, and bil!e s to circulate as money, eq,;al to the actual par value of such securities, shall be furnished by such officer as above, a ote subject to such provisions, as may be established by laww. 3. The credit of the state shall never, in any manner, be given to, or l,aned to, or in aidl of any individ ual, or of any association for baskin g purpose,, nor shall the state ever own, or be liabl e for, any stock in any such association v wh atever. 4. No bills or evidence of debts of a less denomination than five dollars, shall ever be issued or circulated as mone, in this state. 5. The stockholders of every association, and every indi. vidual issuing bank notes, or any kind ef paper credit, intended to circulate as money, shall be responsible in their indiv~iduMl capacity, for all the debts and liabilities connect ed wEith the same, of every kind whatever. 6. The Legislature of this state shall have no power to pass aly act, sanctioning. directly or indirectly, the refusal of any individual or association, issuing bank notes of any description, to pay the same in specie on dt maud, and provlsion shall be made by law, in case of the refusal of any The Convention met pursuant to adJoursnment. Mr. SAWYER moved a call of the Convention, and being ordered, Messrs.An(drews, Archlbol,,Barbee,Bennett, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hitchcock of Cnyal)oga, Holmes, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Mason, Nashl, Perkins, Riddle, Roll, Stilwell, Swan, Vaice, Way, and Worthiiigtoii, were found absent. On motion, Mr. BENNETT, was excL, sed. On motion of Mr CLARK, all further proceedings under the call' were dispensed with. Mr. LOUDON presented a petitioni from L. E Carey and one hundred other citizens, of Brown county, praying,that a clause be lilserted in the new coiistitution, pirohibiting the Legislature fromn passing aily law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors, wLhich on mtotion was laid on the table. Mr. FARR presented sundry petitions fr-in Ira Po6rter, J. Brooks,and fifth other males and fenma,les of Huron counity, on the subject, wilich was laid onl the table. Mr. HAWKINS presented a petition from J. A. Adair and seventy-five other citizens of Morgan county, on the same subject, whicn was laid on the table. Mr. SMITH of Warren, presented a petition:from Margaret Hay, and forty-eighlt other females of Warren county on the same subject, which was laid oin the tab!e.,. Mr. REEMELIN presented a petition from Henary Bicher, and seventy-five other citizens of Brown county, asking that a clause be inserted in the new constitution, requiring all school expenses to be paid otut of the State Treasury-that German Eniglish schools be established and that no s,ectzonal religious tenets be taught in the public schools. Referred to the standing committee'*on Education." Stir. REEMELIN presented a petition from L. Friedly and seventy-five other citizens of Brown county, asking that a clause may be inserted ill the new constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law, by which the free use or disposal of "so called ardoent spirits," may be denied or embarrassed. Mr. McCORMI(CK moved that the petiton be laid on the table, which was agreed to. Mr. STANTON moved that the resolution of Mr. GRAY, in relation to the convention taking a recess, be, now taken up. 413 NINETY-NINTH DAY. TUESDAY, Ja-n. 28,1851. 9 O'ClOCk, A. M. O41 011 CONVENTION DEBATES-TuEtiDAY, JANUARY 28. ,,So the mr,tibia to lay on the table was disagreed to Mr..MANON wished everv gentleman migi t have a4 f opportunity to vote fils stn tits upoli tlt, prt,po sitlon, whether for or igainst. If geutleroen wished to vote that the State shall, lii all future tinge liave, a har,l currency, they slhould have a chance. If on tile other hanll, tliey (lesire that tlhe State shall be cursed, ( as i(s the expr-,~sioIt of some,) with a currency co0ti. pos- edt o f thep issu.s of bhtnks, the privilege of voting for it, slhould be allot%tedi to theni. H,- thought 1how. ever that it.such a currency was to exist iii tha State, the people of tile State oight to have tlie profits slod benefits accruiijg fro'o its issue, as well as lite rieks. andi lo.es;and that a paper currency if tolerated at altl, should be, tolerated as the issue of our OwLi rather thaln foreign banks. lie wouil however for the purpose of itaking as surance doubly sure, move to aSilend the second section of the rep'.irt by atidinig at the etnd (If ihe sarile, the following: "and shall, also iii like manner, p olhibit thle eirciila.tioti of at~y bank pap~er withini this State.". He thought there would now be nio alubigoity in tihe proposition, atul that geitleint ci would be able to come square up atid vote uipIon it with the assurance that if carried,,very speci[ e of paper circulation. whether doiiiestic or foreign, would be effectually pro hi ibi ted. The question being on th e amepr circulent of ilr. Y,.ANON. CASr. LEECfLk said lhe haub t nrl along.ntertaine. u the kte aietf, that tole report of the Curre ncy Comimnitt ee,'ov,'retl tiM whiole, sd h rourdmn, wits i regtrd to a papir circulati ion,, Mr roposed to bid c overed by tpae riendrive n t of ntly, tieOan fromIi a' m o r. L H ekanded the MeNosN.) Sthat o cee kohe-w to entertan e doubts tIteier the ferte itden f, at thoM timne gtme. reBtorf RE Ms drtho ttip; anteu lien hcu~2ttt tllat if gentlemen would r,,aci carefully3, sections two and three, if thiey di(] not discovwr that provision was thereiitn made to effectually t~rolbibit tlip. circulation, it) this Stalfe, of all paper issues, both dome~t~ic aind foreiLin,, they woRield, at leEst, ac quL it the Cognt ittee of any in tentTyor tT opo otherwisef. He, T p owever, should vote for thle ameidndenit, be-cause lie, was, il f;avor of tile pYituei Tws nd it co btairyedr. If it n id a a o good, lie co u ld riot red that it wotiotsi do alaw iaujlury. NI%r. 1, ARWI.LL -de,s-iredi the opportunity to -ay. th~at it had b,eeni the intention of the majoriy of thee Goem inittee wh-iich presented this, report, to p~rohiibit the cir.cula~tioni of ev,-ry species of paper cui rency-tuot only thiat which s,houild be emitted by thle batiks. of' Ohio, but that of each andc every other State. Whien,. hev ever. thle g~.ntleniani fromy Franklinii, (Mr. STA,-,BERI,) yeste-rdaiy, questi~onied Thim uponi thle subject, the ha0~ bL)e guni toeinterraini somej doubts whlethier theyv b,ad fully succeeded. Perhakps as~it wa.s, tliteprovisions of the, re port would Dot preveiit thec- iss~ues of ban~ks of' other States fromi beiiug rece(ivecl ini ptayrieit of deb.'s. tie ha~d takeni injto (.otisideratioti the-.-'ll'lrenmet of tile geni tlemanit fromd Lickinig, (5NIr.?dNIAon,) and tileught iJle shou~tld vote- for it. Mr. REEM:ELIN asked thaut the amieindment be read. Mr. MANON "aid that at the sut4,estion of thi, g,n-i) Oas which motion, tol, sam e ge Scot marsn det tyanded the yeas rpod rt wo hich being oirt ered r,isuiltkad. yeas 45, nays, 45, as follIows: YEAs —M es,srs. BMr.ett of Presale, Batel, Bh uir,Cain1te, ofhane, Clark, Cook, E1winfg, Fart. Forber o, Gray, Gregg. Hard, Hwind, Heaiderson, ritcho cock of Gt-, auga. fHoettrmn, Huniter, Kennon, Kiirk,~ood. Lidey, Loudoyt, lMclaioud, Otis, Pat terson, Pecra, Qcirlfly, Ratiney, R,eemeliiu, Scott of Auglaize-, Sellers, Stiitit of Wyt itmlot. Sth cu d ihoreu S three, tifwey, dikey, Stii ger, 'Struble., SA ift, w niTyl rsr, T i to t u epso lt of Shaelby, Thb th d e c d son of Sthrk, Wourea, Willso to, Wil00s oni, a nd Mr. President- 45. NAYs —Mes,srs. Anidrews. Arelibold.B~irtet of Monitgomerys BlickeiI sden i fer, Broww of Athoevse, Csol oe of Lickias g, a ha frtb,lrs, Conitinedgs, Cirr, Dor1 g, e F l orsence Gillett,:h Greige Ge o f a re en o f Ross, of amiil tona. Hartlae,, Hol t,, Hor ton, Hamphrevill i e. Ht tyot, entert ined, Jo tes, Ldueatsh, s,arwill. L p f eech, Lea dI eietter, .iM al ati c, Mi tc helli iMh p r eeet e d t h i M o e p i s, to, p,)r o l ti b ii, gashi, Noirrdis, Ortot, Ro ll, Sawyer, Sco tt of Harrison, S n dsm ithi ch b ei n g of' rs li, y ei a h4, it ay v r the ge ittle na,tb - bin. s, To w s,ysterda, (luW oodt,tiry, a dnrpd Worttite ubftoi hl45. So tle H aHotioa i t o takhe i ures olution, was o tisagre~ed lo. On motiod ofano Mr. liANON, MtCh, convention took up tho,, report of t yh coSthriri t teeo om Bi n rOking and Currency," with thre peiidiitg amteidndenits. The qWrentalot pending beinig on the avoenodmenit of re lr.e Dor Bls~ e, to the ar,einewit of Crlr. CASE of Lickitig. Peniding, which(~-; Mr. REP-'MELIN rose to,,a poin~t of orde-r. [{e believe-d the- atiieii,itrett, maude, by Mr. CASE of Lic king s, O ad the sustqe oftit gaeindents Gregg to the sa m iae, out of ord er, because, first,avlint tou cannougav touinser t m ar', thing b e,for e a bill, and s t eronidiy —that all am-enidmen ts must b,~ made to thei body ofLtrwi ll, or a t, h el iid th e poymereof. d Mr. PRESIDENTsid, the. ame,4idndent, suibmitted by Mr. CASE. wRidre f ist entertained some uday s since, was in the f lorui of atpiroso, to coSmue in at the ell(] of tohe section. In its tgr esewit form it is difficult to der temnine,, whetther the move-r intended it, as a resolution, or as asubstitute. for thet- origintal articet. No one will probably clainm the right to offi,r a res,olution by way of armej(ntrineat to anarticle, atid no substitute, call he ente,rtain~ed, that does ~not leave some part of heoriginial article stanidingL. Mr. KIRKWOO:D moved, that the report anid peniding anmen.~dments be laid on. the. table. Oin wl~iclt motion, Mir. LEEOHI demanded tlli- yeas and niays, which being ordered, resulted, yeas 34, niays 50. as follows: YF. AS-M~essrs. Andrews, A rehbold, Bates, Brown of A thens,, C,.hill,C.~esC~n~,l,kColini,ok E~wart, Ewing. Foee,Gillett, Ha~rlan, H-awki~ns, Hl,i-ndersoti, Holt, florto),' tluniphreville., K,jiton), Kirk wood,Malliol. Morehiead,MC,,'t,rnick, Otis, Putte-rson, Pe-ck, Srmithi of' Wyatdot, Staiibery Stanitont, Stilwell, Warreni and Williams-i,-34. NAYs-Messrs. Bart,ie[ of Monfgomery, Barnett of Preble, Blair, Blicketisderfer, Brotwni of Carroll, Catse of Hockinig, Case of Lickinig, Dors,-ey. F,,rr, Forbes,; Grah~ami. Gray, -Gfrieen of' Defianitce,.Greeni of Ross, 414 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUFSAY, JANUARY 28. should be taken, the result should be at once conclusive and satisfactory. Mr. WORTHINGTON would suggest to gentle. men whether it would not be well to insert another section, applicable to institutions and persons not now in existence. Section second seemed only to provide in relation to those already in being. They are prohibited from doing certain things; but their successors hereafter to be born or established, are, it seems, so far as the provisions of this report are concerned, to be lett to do as they please. Myr. M ANON said the object of his amendment was to make the thing plain, so that it might be understood by every one. Perhaps lihe had not succeeded. If gentliemei tbought a better plan could be hit upon, he would with draw his amend ment. Mr. MANON, on leave, with dre w his amendment. Mr. MITCHEL L then mo ved t o amend the fifth line of the third section, by inserting between the words "issue" and "paper," the words, "circulate, p as s, pay ou t or receive any." The question th en being on the amendment of Mr. MITCHELL, the same was agreed t o. The question then being on the engrossment of tho report: Mr. KIRKWOOD inquired if the decision of the Convention in the negative, on the question of engrossment would cut off any further amendment. Mr. PRESIDENT. such a vote would be a final disposition of the bill. Mr. KIRKWOOD. What then would be done? Mr. DORSEY. The report would have been voted down and finished, and that would be an end of the matter. Mr. PRESIDENT. It would be an end to tho matter under this report. Mr. DORSEY. Tfhere might be a new proposition. Mr. PRESIDENT. There may be a new bill introduced. When a bill is lost upon its engrossment, it can only be revived upon a motion to reconsider the vote. Mr. CLARK moved to further amend the Report by adding at the end of section two, the following: "And after the adoption of this Constitution, the bank notes or paper of the banks of other States, intended to circulate as money, shall not be paid out or circulated in this State, and any paper so paid out shlla be void, and shall not extinguish any liability what. ever, nor be payment for any property or thing, nor shall any action be brought upon any contract, where suph paper shall form any part of its consideratioa, and it shall be the duty of the Legislature to pass any law that may be necessary, to aid in carrying out this section,' The question being on the amendments Mr. NASH inquired if it would not be well to amend by inserting a peniitenttary clause. Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas9 and nays. Mr. REEMELIN said he hoped the gentleman from Monroe would vote, as he was present, though not in his seat just now. The PRESIDENT. It is the duty of every member to vote, when he is present. The yeas and nays being ordered, resulted, yeas 6~, nays 32, as follows: YEAS —Messrs. Andr ews, Bur net of Stontgomzelrv Bar' nett of Preble7 Bates B~lickensiderfer Brow-n of Ca'rroll Cahill, Case of Hockinlg, Clark. Coilings, Cook, Dorsey, Ew ing, Gillett, Grahlam, Gray, OGreenm of Defiance, Groe~sbeck, Hard, Harlan, gawskins, Hendersonl, Holmes, Holt, Hootmxanl, IHumphlreville, Hunt, Jones;, Kirkwood, L~arwill, Leech, Leadbe~tter, Loudon, Marion, Mitchell, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Oti~s, Patterson, geemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of' authorize their emission and circulation; because they' are iii ierogation,f the Constitution anid laws of tile Unsitd th he eired States. hat he dsired was that the State siotild retaino the rig ht to p huss laws in aid of tile provisions f thtA Constitution anti liaws of the United States. It,i pro)er to do so; as has frequently been done. It has paftssedi i'ws to pun-ishi the couuterfeititng the cur recu,t hcoie of t he country. He th.ought the creation byv a Stattm of a l)tprer mooiiy shop was as wrong in princis! ns to establis h a qsitot. He would move to atnend teie afroexedciseiit of the pgentlemag from Licking, (Mr. atiliANO.,) by i nseir ctingo after the word paper," the woriyds "intended, to cir.culate. as rtioeony." lThe qus tioL tmton beitg o n the at-en mendct of Mr. tREEwELINh, t,g the apeet of Mr. MANON: Mr. SKENNON said that i when he first looked at the replort of t hi Coimittee, l ie had thought it had not been the intention of the connimittee, to exclude from circulation here the issues of the banks of other States. Obn a more attentiv e readipg however,he had come to the concilusion that the second section does clearly exclude such circulation. The second provides that the General Assembly shall prohibit by law, any person or persons, association, cormtpany or corporation, now in exis. tence from exercising the privilege of banking, or orestieg, emittig, o r pu tting i n circulation any bank notes, or paper, of any description whateve r, t o circulate as rmiorney or cuirrenicy. It seemed to him therefo re, on careful consideration, that the report covered the whole ground. Mr. STANBERY said that it seemed then, that we lawyers ditffe. He was forc ed to disagree in opin ion with his friend from Belmoint, [Mr. KEzNON.[ He did not think the purposes avowed by the committee, had been fully carried out ini the report. The second section prohilits any person, association, &c. to emit or put i!? circulation. Now, what is the meaning of the ter tn s emit or put il circulation? Is it the first issue of the paper money from the bank th Sat creates it? Is it the transfer from h and to hand after it has been put forth? Again, the prohibition extends to persons, compaies and corporations now in exist ence. Does it prevent tie future authorizati on of persons, or the future cre ation of bank s to put in circul at io n a p aper currency? Certainly not. I wish the committee woul d do up their work, and place the questio n d istinctly before us. Mr. McCOREIICK, wou.ld like to have the exposition of he an o the geCtleane from Franklin, of the fourth and fifth lin es of the third section: "nor shall any person or per sons, either natural or artificial, ever be allowed to deal in, or issue paper money so called." Mr. STANBERY. That is no p r oh ibit ion of the circulation of paper mtoney. If I hand a bank note to a tav ern keeper, to pay imy bi ll, is that dealing in, or issuing paper money? No t at all. Mr. MITCHELL said he had originally differed fiom other gentlemeno of theSa c ommittee as to the force of i io e n the expression used in the report; but had chosen to d ef er to them in opinion. Mr. DORSEY said he had no doubt the Comnmittee had fairly intended to prohibit the issue of all bank paper in Oie; but he still believed they had, inadvertenltly, or otherwise, left a large creep-out place. In order that the people may vote understandingly in the matter, and to place before them definitely, the qulestion they are to vote on, he should tote to hate this place stopped up, so that it shall be fully and conclusively provided that no paper emissions, whether created in the State, or out of the State, shall ever be in circutioll in Ohio. He wanted the people to be fully advised as to what they were voting on, that when the vote_ 415 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 28. Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of High- a misnomer or absurdity. I object, also, to this, first, land, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stick- because it is indefinite, and. secondly, because it does hey, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Thompson of not pre sent tn.e true issue. I desire that the public Shelby, Thompson of Stark:, Townsend, Wa rren dmind may not be misled, and do not want the people Williams, Wilson, and Woodbury,-62. to be told that the issue before them is bank destruc NAYS-Messrs. Blair, Brown of Athens, Case of tion on the one hand, and the creation of bainks on Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Curry Ewart, Florence, the other. I trust that gentlemen of the democratic Forbes, Green of Ross, Gregg, Itamilton, Hitchcock party will do justice to the wishles of their friends, of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Ken'on, Larshli, and present the question in the mainner in which it Lidey, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Orton, Peck, was presented at the election last fall. If it is so Quigley, Ranney, Sawyer, Smith of Warren, Stan- presented fairly and honestly, without fraudulent bery, Stilwell, Worthington, and President-32. pretences and false issues, it will, I conceive, be met So the amendment was agreed to. successfully and triumphantly, as it was last fall, in Mr. REEMELIN said he saw the gentleman from the part of the State which I represent. I believe the Monroe was now in his seat. He tilelefore moved that public mind is now undergoing a rapid change, and he have leave to record his vote. [Lautighter.] the day is not far distant, when the demands of the THE PRESIDENT said he Bad no power to corn- people, if they are not answered, wvill be made in such pel gentlemen to vote. a tone and mainner, that they will be heard, and will Mr. HAWKINS moved to further ame(nd the Re- command a proper response. port by adding as an additional section, the following: They will demand to have secured to them a cur Sec. 4. That at the same time, when thile votes of rency composed solely of the precious metals; and the electors shall be taken upon the adoption of this they will not only demand it, but they will see that Constitution, there shall be separately submitted to their demands are answered For thenm now to secure them the question of Banking, in tile manlner follow- such a currency. they have but to will it. At present, ing: all I desire is that the question may be presented to A separate ballot may be given by every person hav- them fully and fairly; and when it is so done, whating a right to vote upon the adoption of tilis Constitu- ever may be the result. I am ready to abide the issue. tion, to be deposited in a separate ballot box, upoll Mr. ARCHBOLD concurred with the gentleman which shall be endorsed the words "Banks" or "No from Richland, (Mr. HENDlRSON,) that the question ]Banks," and if a majority of the votes thus cas t and should bc so presented as to be intelligible to every endorsed, shall contain the words "No Banks," then, voter in the State. He thought that was done by the and in that event, the preceding sections shall becomtie amendment of the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. a part of the Constitution." HAWKINS.) If the mode had been adopted which pro The question then being on the amendment of Mr. vided that in case the people voted one way, certain HAWKINs. sections should go iito the constitution, otherwise Mr. HAWKINS said it was stated bv members of not-that would be well eniough, only that the tickets the committee that it had been their ilteti;tion to so pro- wonld be lumbered by the large amount put upon vide as to exclude all paper money from circulation them. Thiswas aseriousmatter, in aState of three or whether foreign or domestic. He supposed that the four hundred thousand votes. He thought the issue report as now amended, would meet the approbation could not be mistaken, and that the amendment of the of gentlemen, as it presents the question plainly and gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HAWKINs,) stated it fairly. He desired now that the question should be with sufficient certainty. submitted to the people, and to have it settled ill the Mr. RANNEY did not see how such a proposition Constitution. It had been stated by one gentleman, could be in order. He submitted that the amnendment that he looked upon all bank paper as irierely counter- of the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HIAWKINs,) did felt, and in contravention of the constitution of the not in the least vary the question submitted in the United States. He hoped, if such should prove to be report; and that, however proper it might be initself, the case, that provision would be mnade for Lie punislih this report was not the place for it. The proper place ment of those engaged in the business. for it is in the schedule attached to the constitution, The question then being on the amendment of MIr which provides the manner in which it is to be voted HAWKINs: on by the people. It relates solely to the mode of Mr. HENDERSONmoved to amend the amendment vo(ting, and irot in the least degree to the provisions by inserting, after the word "banks," the words "of of'the report. issue." Mr. MITCHELL would suggest to the gentleman Mr. H. said he was opposed to the amendment of from Richland, (Mr. HaNDERSON,) to alter his amendthe gentleman from Morgan as it stood, because it fails I meit a little. He would prefer the words "paper to place the real question in issue before the people. i money or no paper money," to that of "banks of issue The true issues, shall there be a currency composed or no banks of issue." exclusively of the precious metals, or shall there not. Mr. CASE of Licking had no great objection to the That is the issue, and nothing more nor less. Now, amendment proposed by the gentleman frtom Knox, if I understand the position of the democratic party, (Mr. MITCHELL.) He wished the question to be freely it is not that of an exterminating war upon all andi placed before the people. He thought it might be every species of banking institutions. They have, done by the words: "exclusive metallic currency'as I understand, no objection to banks of discount of yes; exclusive metallic currency-no." He was opdeposite or of exchange. It is solely against the iposed to the employment of the word banks. It wIas issue feature that they contend. They look upon full of traps and delusions that he wanted to steer that function which empowers banks to issue their clear of. He should vote against the proposition of own notes to circulate as money as the nuisance, the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HAwKiNs,) becanse which they desire should be abated. It will be re- he preferred that of the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. membered that yesterday I was opposed to submitting MIT~cELL ) this question to the people, upon the proposition of Mr. HUMPHREVILLE said it was a mere question the gentleman from Lliking, (Mr. CASE,) to vote of form. There was no substance in it. What is the "hard money sections" and "no hard money sections," question to be submitted to the people? Merely this: because I thought the expressions harsh, and involved A Shall a hard money article go into the Constitution or 416 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, JANUARY 28. lin to order. He thought the debate to be taking too e much latitude. y Mr. REEMELIN desired the opportunity to set the - gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. STANBERY,] right. He - holds out the idea, that I have cited the governments of Europe, as examples for our imitation. The very - reverse is the case. I said the example of Germany , had operated upon the minds of this government, to e induce them to guard against the evils there prevalent. t Such an appeal to the passions and prejudices of men, is a unworthy of a member of this convention. d Mr. STANBERY. I have no objection to the gene tlemad coming here. I welcome all foreigners to a - home among us. What I find fault with, is, that he denounces our laws, and says that the legislation of the M country, is tantamount to authorizing a system of coun terfeiting. Mr. HENDERSON said his only object was to pre sent the question of currency fairly before the people, t and he thought the amendment he had offered, did so, t as fully as it could be done by any form of words that m had been suggested. There could ba no difficulty with n the people, in,understanding the term "banks of issue." , It means those who issue a currency for the purpose of a circulating medium, and my amendment proposes to deprive them of this function, only. He could not vote for the naked proposition of the gentleman from Morgan, [Mr, HAWKINS]. It would leave the matter r open to the widest abuse. During the recent carn paign, the part of the State which he represented, had 3 been flooded with pamphlets, declaring that the issue ! before the people, was the question of banks, or no banks; and that they were told, that if the democratic party should succeed, all the banks of the State, weuld be prostrated. He had taken issue upon this charge, and had denied it. A gentleman had undertaken to remind me that I had been inattentive to the proceed inigs of this convention, during its summer session, or that I had a design to mislead, by my representations upon this subject. That is not the case. I have been neither inattentive, nor have I any design to mislead; and my purpose now is, to set myself right; and I say to my friends, that ifthey do not sustain this amendment, they will lay themselves open to the same fire they ex perienced last fall; and I say, that it is absolutely necessary, if this matter is again to go before the peo ple, to be voted upon, that it should be met fairly; dis cussed fully, and defined truthfully. Mr. MANON, would vote against the amendment, for the reason that it did not place the question fairly before the people. Mr. ARCHBOLD disagreed with the gentleman from Richland, (Mr. HaNDERsoN) and the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. STANBERRY.) He did not see the least difficulty in the amendment of the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HAwKINS.) He did not know what company the gentleman from Franklin, keeps, but he believed the people would take care to understand the Constitution, before they vote upon it All that would be necessary, would be to put the tickets in a convenient shape, and that could be done under the amendment of the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HIAWINS.) In regard to the proposed amendment of the gen tleman from Richland, (Mr, HENnERSON,) he saw no reason for it. The committee who reported the bill, had made no distinction between banks of issue, and other banks. Nothing but banks of issue, had been spoken of. Why not say, the Legislature shall pro hibit banks of issue? He thought the amendment calculated to mislead. Mr. NASH. If the object of the report is to allow the Legislature to create banks that are not banks of T issue, the amendment of the gentleman from Rich not? He saw no form of words that would so fullj express the real question, as that proposed by the gen tleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE,) of "hard mone section-yes; hard money section-no." Butwhich ever way it may be stated; the people should vote un derstandingly upon it. Suppose we put the question-,"banks of issueyes; banks of issue-no." A question might arise what are banks of issue? No two gentlemen will agree in what consists a bank of issue. One will say, i! means the bank which first puts the paper money in circulation; another, that any bank that receives and -pays out notes for circulation is a bank of issue. The true question is, will we have these sections in the Con stitution or not? Mr. STANBERY agreed with the gentleman from Medina, (Mr. HuMPHREVILYE,) that the question was a very delusive one. If the question is to be submitted to the people, in wanted it to be done in such form that the people shall understand it, and know whal they are voting for. There will undoubtedly be many men, who will vote upon this Constitution, who have never read it-and who cannot read it. We all know the noise and confusion that attend popular elections, and how easy on such occasions it is, to prevent ignorant persons from apprehending the true question upon which they are to give their votes. The vote should fully express the question to be settled-,"for exclusive hard money currency-y es; for -exclusive hard money currency-no " It is easy to imagine that a question may arise, as to what is a bank of issue —whether it is such an one as puts in circulation its own notes, or whether it is one that pays out the notes of other inistitutions. For instance, the Ohio Life and Trust Company. It issues no notes of its own, but pays out those of other banks. The amendment of the gentleman from Richland, (Mr. HENDERSON,) does not come up to the question. He had a word to say in regard to the remarks made by the gentleman from Hamilton (Mr. REEMELIli,)yesterday. Whoever heard such a libel upon the government of the United States as had fallen from the lips of that gentleman? Here, for more than filty years past, every State in the Union, and every legislative body, has been doing-what? Froviding for the wants of the people, by putting within their reach a currency made by themselves, adapted to their use, and necessary to their wants; and during all this time, what have they been doing? Why, they have, according to the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELIN,) been passing laws that are equivalent to counterfeit laws. Not only we, in Ohio, but all the other States, have been enacting statutes to legalize fraud, to establish a counterfeit currency to be emitted wherever there is a bank, or a banker behind the counter. Mr. MITCH ELL rose to a question of order. He wanted to know what this had to do with the question under debate. Mr. STANBERY. I am opposing the amendment of the gen.tileman from Richland, (Mr. HENDERSON.) Mr. PRESIDENT. The question is on the amendment of the gentleman from Richland. MAr. STANBERY. I say that amendment does not present the'trule position; and that proposition I am arguing. Sthe gentleman took us to Europe, and displayed before us, thle benefits of this and that government, ahsd the examples they had set for our imnitation. Does nlot-he know, that what may suit the liitle cantons on the Rhine, may not suit us? Does he not knoW, that we are a people of far too much energy, to be satisfied with a currency comnposed of the rix-dollar? The PRESIDENT called the gentleman from Frank 417 418 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 28. land (Mr. Elr}sox,) is right; butt if the intenition is section of the report of thie standing committee, he to prohliibt the cr-ation of all banks, it is a miisnom,er. thought this object would be accomplished, and the The words-; of the rep)ort contain aii bsol'ite pro- couvenltion havedoie, all that prudence, policy, orprohiibition iof aiiy bi-iik wliatever. 3t fiirthler prohibits p.'iety required at their hands. the Legisl.atrefrom anutlhoiizin,the makiltig,emnission That section denies to the Assembly the power to or ptittiiing in circllt.a,tn, of any bill of credit, bond, incorporate any bank. The effect of this is two fold; check, tick t, ertifficat, promissory note, or other first separating entirely the government of the Statd paper medium, inteided or calculated to circnlate as,i from connexionr with the bank paper, or currency oftle money or currency. I'he question then is settled to Stat,,, and thereby avoiding the question of what is or l)e "banks or no banks," and'not "baluks of issue or no what is riot a bill of credit within) the meaning of the banks of issue," and to place the qie(stionI before the constitution. Seconidlv,it will ileave the subject of come people in any otlhei form, is a decepio,.) mercial pailier precisely where itshoul~i be lelt to privat But this is not all. The third s(ction contains a enterprize, and private credit. negati e pregnant, to correspond with the affirmation He believed the preselt Banks afforded sufficient faof the first. The business of dealin: in inoney,is left iillties, or biad the power to do so, and if they failed, it here to all. That money is gold andesilver, and notll- a as wrotng in them; and would afford those facill-' ing else, because all bank circulation, both fiireion tie. as long as popular opinion required or would de. and dom eitic is absolutely prohibited, and the peop)ile maliand them. The changes taking place in the corn. under this constitution, are to'havepureand unadult- nmercial world, and in public opilion in relation to erated hard money and nothing else. The trie piop- Banks of issue were great, and the great ijflux of proosition theii is, "bank or no bank,'" or "hard 1onlety cious intutals would seem to demand, that issues should or no hard nioney"-an exclusive metallic currency, at least be restricted to billsofthe larger denominations. without any-provision for credits or mercantile, or Should, however, this opinion prove incorrect at the commercial facilities whatsoever. expiration of the charters of these banks, it would be Mr. HAWKINS thought the proposition of the gen- corrected by the legitimate action of the capitalists f tleman fromt Richland, calculated to embarrass, rath- the State. er than make it more clear. The second section proposes the destruction of the The question then beiiig on the amendmnent of Mr. preselnt banking system. Now he felt himself instrueHEx-DIrsox, ted( bv his constituents to let that system alone, asid he Mr. HENDERSON demanded the yeas and nays, could not, iii justice to themn do otherwise than vete which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 44, iamys 50, against that sectioit. A large majority of them are as follows: what are cailled soft money men. - They adhered to NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Ewing, Forbes, what were called the West Uiion resolutions of 1842, Gregg, Groesbeck,i Ht-ndersoi, Holmes, litlt, Hiot man,I aud he felt bound to respect and to vote those opinions, Hunt, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leech, Leadthouh they ired fron his owi. better,Lidey, Lodon, itchell, Norris, Oton, Patt. In regard to the third section, hie would say that he sotte,LQide~y, Loudon, Roereelln, Norris, R011o, Sawyer, son,Quigley, Rnney, Reemli, Rdde, Roll, Swyer did not wish to subject himiself to such rules iii regard to traffic in mnon,ey, as he would not submit to in refer-, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Steb| to traffic in moay, as ha would not submit to in refery bins, Stickiey, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Tayor, coto ayother artice. Moey i his opi w Thompson of Shelby, TIhomnpson of Stark, Townshierid, Thompson of Shelby,'l'hompsonl of Stark, Towneheti~d! ai drticle o trade as much as wheat, flour or pork, and ~Wilsn and President-44. (l~the restriction in one case was just as obnoxious as inu anotiher; antd he looked upon those laws whlich said that rYEArS-Messrs. Andorews, Archbold, B arnet ofMont- Irien should sell the use of their money at six or ten or gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, any other rate perceut, as wring }aprinciple. Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll,Case of Hockig, He was n ot wllirg to srstain the let, as t clause of tprincl e. Case f Likit~s Ghmber Colings Coo,urg' fHe WLAS not waitling to sustainl the. last Clt^us of ttio> Case of Licking, C hambers, Collngs, Cook, Cry, section because he aid lot desire to be restricted in Dorsey, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of his righ to deal iii paper iiioney or aiything else. So Defiance, Greene of Ross, Hamnilton-, }lard, Harlal 1srl tdeli pprsolyo;yting,3l Defiance, Greene of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Huarlai, long as tie State shall issue paper, and congress shall Hawkins, H itchcock of Geauga, Horton, Humplire-gitiate subject f authioriz,3 its issue, it is a legitimate subject Of ville, Hunter, Johusoii, Keniioin, Larsh, Manon More- trade,La iiieli have as good right to deal ii it, as iMr caliead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peck,c, Icoos, cloths or anything else,; and b,e would not reScott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of War' strict or aiiythiiig else; and l, wold not ra Scott of Hari-i~~~~~~~soD iit fHgia~,Siho a-.trict himself in the privilege to buy and soil money or ren, Stanbery, Stanton,,- Stitwell, Swift, Warren, e i hisyelfin thepivilege to buy and sell ney or Woodbury auld Worthiiigton —50.' l exchange, any more than to buy and sell ally otLer Woodbury and Worthiiigton —50. So~ te ed twsige t.subject of regular trade or comimerce. So the amendment was disag,reed to. He should therefore vote agaiist the amendment of Mr. MceCORMICK, said, that he supposed he might the gentleman fromtn Mo-gaiu, (Mr. HAwKINS,) because now, as well at any other time, submit the few remarks he did not lielieve the people desired the question re.which, in justice to himself he felt called upon to make, ferred to theLin in the shape proposed. If any ques. upon the proposition now under consideration, as well tion is to be submitted to them, let it be upon some astopoint out the unfair position inltwhich he was syst,nim for banks, which when adopted may be practiplaced in regard to its provisions. If he should vote cal ii its operation. If the people want incorporated against it, it would be said that hie was opposed to sub- b: nks, let them so declare by their votes mititng to the people, whetier they should hlave banks Mr. RANNEY said the amendment of the gentleor not. On the contrary, if he should vote for it, he man firom Moigan, (Mr. HAwlINs,) was calculated to would be understood as having comnitted himself in place some in a false position. favor of this particular mode of placing the question Mr. HAWKINS. The desigit is to allow gentlemen before the people. He was not at present, disposed to to show bv their votes, that they are in favor of subsay whether he would submit the question to the peo- mittinig the question to the people, nothing else. pie separately. He much preferred such a clause, Mr. RANNEY. But you call upon us to vote to which would accord with his own views, as also the submit a question to the people before you define what opinions of his constituen's, and, make such aclause a that question shall be. Let us say first what shall go part of the constitution, determinable on the single vote into the instrument, and then settle how it is to be given for the ijnstrument as a whole. voted on by the people. He was willing that every If the convention shall be pleased to adopt the first part of the constitution should be voted oi, 5but he OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUrSDAY, JANUARY 28. wanted to know precisely what it was, to be acted up on by a separate vote; and then he wanted the pro vision to do so, put in the right place. Mr. HUMPfiHREVILLE was at a loss to know pre cisely what the gentleman from Trumbull wanted. Mr. RAN NEY wanted to settle the provisions to be submitted, in advance of providing how it was to b3 done. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE thought the two proposi tions could not safely be separated. He would vote for the report, provided it was to go separately to the people-otherwise not. Others were in the same con dition. We may be trapped in this way, and after car rying the report, we may be defeated upon the other branch of the proposition. He did not care how hard a constitution we had, if the people only said so. He thought the two questions should go together. Mr. LARWILL inquired if the gentleman would devise a system of banks to go into the constitution? Mr. HUMPHREVILLE said he had no intention to devise such a system. Mr. MITCHELL moved to amend the amendment of Mr. CAsE of Licking, by inserting in the fifthi line, after the word "sections," the words, "as they now are or may be amended by this convention." The question being on the amendment, the same was disagreed to, on division, yeas 42, iiays 43. Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to amend the amendment of Mr. HAWKINS, by adding at the end, as follows: But if a majority of the ballots thus cast, shall be endorsed "Banks," then the following sections shall be part of this Constitution: SEC. 1. Special charters for banking purposes, shall never be passed by the General Assembly, but general laws may be enacted under which banking companies may be formed, but all such laws, shall at all times be subject to alteration, amendment and repeal, and such alteration. amendment, or repeal, shall affect as well, all companies then existing under such general lawo, as those hereafter formed, thereunder. SEC. 2, The capital stock of any such company, shall never exceed — dollars, nor shall its corporate existence extend beyond the period of - years. SEC. 3. No Law shall ever be passed, auLhorizing the emission or circulation of paper credit of any description whatever, interded, or calculated to circulate as money, of a denomnination as low as the highest denomination of coin emitted by the Government of the United States. Setc. 4. All payments made in paper credits of any description whatever, intended or calculated to circulate as money, of denominations of less than herein authorized, whether issued in this state or elsewhere, shall be void, and the General Assembly shall pass such further laws as may be found necessary, to prevent the circulation of paper credits herein prohibited. SEC. 5. The members of such banking companies, shall be liable for all debts of such companies, in the same manner as members of general partnerships are liable, for the debts o such partnerships. Suc. 6. A suspension of specie payments by any company, shall in all cases, operate as a forfeiture of all the privileges of such company." Pending which, On motion- of Mr. RANNEY, the Convention took a recess. the Committee on Banking and Currency, with the pending amendments. The question p ending being- o n ag reeing to the amendment of Mr. KIRKWOOD, Mr. KIRKWOOD desi red to e xplain t he position of the question, prior to the offering of his a mendment, and the effect of his amendment thereon. The re port of the Committee on Banks and the Currency has bee n c onsidered and amended, a nd the vote being about to b e ta ken on its final passage, the gentlem an from Morgan moves a section, submitting th at re port to a separate vote of the people, providing that if a ma jority of the people should approve the repor t, i t should bwcome a p ar t o f the C onstitutio n, but making no provision for the insertion of anything in the Con stitution onesta the subjet of the Currency, in case the re port of the comm itt ee sho ul d not b e approved by the people. I ha ve offered my amen dment to rem edy this defect, and to p rovide c ert ain restrictions on the power of the General Assembly over th e subject of b anking hereafter, i n cas e th e people shall decide that they will have ban ks. I would prefer taking a direct vote on the report of the committee, witahout eithe r the amendment of the gent l eman from Morga n, or my own; but as the gentleman from Morgan presses his amendment, an d as I see ar o und me indications that his amendment will be adopted, I desire to amend his amendment, by the addition of what I propose. But if a majority of the ballots thus cast, shall be endorsed "Banks," then the following sections shall he part of this Constitution: SEc. 1. Special charters for banking purposes, shall never be passed by the General Assenmbly, but general laws may be enacted under whieh banking companies may be fromed, but all such laws shall at all times be subject to alteration. amendment and repeal, and such alteration, amendment, or repeal shall affect as well all companies then existing, un der such general laws, as those hereafter formed thereunder. SEzc e. 2'The capital stock of any such company, shall never exceed dollars. nor shall its corporate existence extend beyond the period of years. SEc. 3. No law shall ever be passed, authorizing the emis. sion or circulation of paper credit of any description what ever, intended, or calculated to circulate as money, of a de. nomination as low as the highest denomination of coin emit ted by the Government of the United States. SEC. 4. All payments made in paper credits of any descrip tion whatever, intended or calculated to circulate as money, of denominations of less than herein authorized, whether issued in this state or elsewhere, shall be void, and the Gen eral Assembly shall pass such further laws as may be found necessary, to prevent the circulation of paper credits herein prohibited. Src. 5 The members of such banking companies, shall be liable for all debts of such companies, in the same manner as members of general,,partnierships are liable for the debs of sudh partnerships. SEc. 6. A suspension of specie payment by pny comrpan shall in all cases, operate as a forfeiture of all the privileges of such company. I shall now take up the different sections which I have proposed, and reading them over again, I shall briefly, and clearly as I can, explain their design and effect, for I desire gentlemen upon both sides of the chamber to understand these sections. And after T shall have spoken of what is required in' these sec tions, I shall make some general remarks, by way of application. The first section is as follows: SEC. 1. Special charters tbr banking purposes, shall never ie passed by the General Assemb~ly, but general laws may be eniacted, under which banking companies may be,brined, lbut all such 'laws shall at all times he subject to alteration, amendmnent and aepeal, and such alteration, amendment, or repeal shall affet as well all companies lihen existing under such genleral laws, as those hereafter formed thereunder. The intention of this section is, and its effect will be, to prevent the General Assembly from passing any special charters for Banking incorporations: sothat al1 such incorporations will have to grow up un' THREE O'CLOCK, P. M. The question pending being on agreeing to Mr. KIRKWOOD'S amendment, Mr. HOLT moved that the report and pending amendments be laid on the table; which was agreed to. Mr. HOLT asked and obtained leave to be excused from serving as a member of the Select Committee on the Judiciary, under the resolutions of Mr. PERKINS. The President announced Mr. RIDDLE to fill the vacancy in said committee. On motion, the Convention took up the report of 28 410 AFTERNOON BESSION. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 28. der general laws; and it will place this new principle authorized bank paper. According to the terms of in such general laws; namely: they may be amended, this provision I hlave made no imore pay-menet to him so that the amrnendment shall affect every incorpora- than though I had paid him tiothing, or had given tion-whether its existence commenced before or af- himn mere counterfeit monley. Now, with this for a ter the date of the passage of such amendment. law of the land, does any v(,eutleman suppose that un Here is the second section: authorized eap:r wAould circulate as monley? 1 say it SEc. 2. Tie ca:,ital stock of any such coimpany, shall neqer wouild not. It strikes imiiin(l.ately at the confidence exceed (iollarls, rior shall its corporate existence extend inl the circulatting medium, vhicli is the basis of the beyond the per-ld of years. whole thing. I have cop-ed this section substantially from the I read now the fifth section. minority report of the gentleman from Warren, (Mr. Sc 5. The mmbers of such banig compae, WILTSI~MS;) and therefore I do not pretend to undler- SEC. 5- The memnbers of suchI banking companies, WILLIAIAs;)'and therefore I do not pretend to under- shall be liable for all dlebts of such compauies, in the stand futlly whlat is iitendedto be effected by it. The first clause is probably designed to prevent the Gen- samemaoner as mdbeb s o f uh eral prtorships are eral Assembly from chartering any large and grasp- liablefor the dets of such )arteslips ing incorporation, which might overshadow and des- told by our wi friends that troy every other company within reach of its influ- indiviltial liability was all a humbug.'I'e democrats ence. The intention of the second clause of the sec- of our State, at one titie cotitetided for this doctrine tion, is to prevent the enactment af a law authorizillg very strenuously; and the whiigs told them so earlnestly charters to run for a long period of time. and repeatedly, that it was all a humbug, that I fear The third section is: siiie of them have come reailly to beiieve that it is so. SEtc. q. No law shali ever ever ie passed, authorizina tle I do not say so, positivI ly; but I fear that is the case. emissiot orcircutlatioti of paper credit of any description what- Tlle difficltly which I 1iave always had upon the subever, intended,or calulated to circulateas itoey, of a deiioil- ject of ii dividual liability, has beeni as to the mode of ination as low as lte higiert denomination ofcoin emitted by tie its application But suppose yeit niake this liability ~Goveranient otthe Uiiited Saes the samle with ltst of anl ordiiary partnership. If the The intention of this section is, and its effect would liabilitv were of txis natture, v,ou coutld take the notes be, to prevent the putting into circulation in this of the B o ooter or of Sadusky, or of Nor -St,~~~~~~~~~~~o theBainl of Wooster, or of Sand~usky, or of NorState, any paper money of such denomination as walk d gig before a jtic of the peace yu would come into competition with any of the author- c)uld bri ng eur s ait agiist ly of the steck yoldur i z ed coin of the United States: so th at w e would not ti k r u it -yi an co h i i 1 ti 11~~~~~~~~o th fEese banks, and make himn- p'~y}Vjustf asyou can cornhave any paper t]oney in circulation a s small as the pel the payment ol an itdivi.iuil note. If you Will denomination of $20. And then, upon the happen give te tt Iiind of lial'il1y ol the part of the stocking of a bank crisis in the country, the loss would holders of these brk I will egi that their notes fall upon thlat portion of the community, for whose old a * } } ~~~~~~~would be cquoted1 at1 oar to-morrow; because the stockbenefit the banks are especially created,-I mean the holders be quote t par tomorriw because the stockmerchants and traders. It is known that, under the or ar worth the wole of thei, and great d present systein of small bill circulation, in the event moTre. <. >.., ~~~~The sixth section reads as follows: of a depreciation, or a bank failure, a large amount of st a the loss must fill upon the working classes; because EC 6. A suspension of specie p ymnent by any comthey are comnpelled, if not by law, at least by tllie force palny, shall in all cases operate as a forfeiture of all the of circumstances, to receive paper money for their privileges of such colipaly. wages. A large proportion of all the small bills in The ittention of this seection is to declare, that ifany circulation are always in such hands: anid they can- batik shall so far d(leviatett froin the iglit-so far violate not hold on to them for years, until the bank will be the first priucip!e of its existence, as to refuse to pay able to buy them in at par, if it should ever be ableso on dermand specie,pol their outes, they shall at once to do; but they are obliged to sell out to speculators cease to exist as a corporation. at a discount. This preventing paper money from Now, Mr. Presidenit, these are the sections, which I coming into cormpetition with coin, would inevitably offer as and aitienidiueiit to the atiei(tlmeut, of the getsixifuse into the circulation a large amount of netal, tieniati from M rogan, (Mr. HfAWiINS.) and guard the working classes from the losses they I do not pretend to savy that these sections include have heretofore sustained. all the restrictions that are necessary. Doubtless The fourth section is as follows: there are otlers which should be adopted. But I SEc. 4. All payments made in paper credits, o an thinik I may say tlit of themt, that there is not a ys single one, of these propu-oitions, which ihas not redescription whatever, intended or calculated to circu- eived the saction, o f least th e democratic por tion late as moiney, of denominations of less than herein of cevedthe polefion olf levtte d mycratichpotio authoizedssuedinr eren of the people of Ohio and I believe I may sy that authorized, whether issued in this State or elzewwhere, they h ave received the sanction of a large majority of shall be void, and the General Assembly shall pass the people of Ohio, both whigs and democrats o such further laws as may be found necessary, to pre- the nopl Iopo,0 to make ti ew reiniks, by way o f vent the circulation of paper credits herein prohibited. ap lication and I claim the privilege ofspeakin -'application, andl I claim the privilege (of speaking The intention of this provision is, and I believe its freely. I am in the habit of speakitig what I think; effect would be, to prevent the circulation in this and what I shall say niow, will be what I have thought State, of paper mnioney of other States, of a denomina- uponi this question. tion as small as the value of the largest coin of the Taere are several c!asses of members upon this United States. It would prevent all paper money, floor, entertaining diverse views arid opinions upon whetherissuel in this or any other State, from coming this subject. Upon the opposite side of the chain into competition with our coin, anywhere within our ber, there is a large number who do not desire to have borders. Gentlemen tell us that we cannot prevent anything at all, said about the currency in the new the circulation of small notes. They say that we Constitution. They would prefer 1o leave the subject, have ned it by penal statutes, and failed. That is as it stanids in the old Constitution. Upois this side true. But here is the remedy which I propose. Let of the chamber. there are a large nutuber who desire us take such a case as this: Suppose I am indebted to to put into the new Constitutiout, a provision prohib the gentleman from Guernsey to the amount of a hun- ititig the circulation of paper money in the State of dred dollars; and I pay to him that amount of un- Ohio; and of that number, I am one. I desire that. 420 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, JANUARY 28. I would, in the mean time, restrict the powers of bank ilug; Ltid t)hese gentlemenl would all allow them to go on unrestricted. And here is just the differenco be. tween us. Sir, what do the people want? Our friends here say, they would have hard money. WVell, 1 am agreed to that. I am a hard money rmal; and I believe that, if this question could be fairly brought before the peo. pie, they would also vote for it. But we cannot get such a proposition through here. It is now well understood by every member of the Convention, that no hard money proposition can be enigrafted( into this constitution; and we might just as well say it, at Olne time as another. {Mr. REEMELIN interrupting —not heard.) And knowing this, knowing that a hard mosey clause cannot be placed in the Constitution, do these gentlemen desire the old system to go on? Do they desire the convention to adjourn, and say inot a word about banking? Will they throw the question back into the pooi tics of the State, just where i t ha s been for the las e ht ei ght o r t ell years? Will t he y a llo w thile Legisature to go on and charter bank after banlk, with the e xisting license of the s ystem, and do nothing, but wait for "tile good tim e coming," and in the mean. time permit tile sam e sys t em of outrage aLd wrong under which we have suffere d so much? If thi s be their policy, it is not mine. I atn i wiling to go as far as any of these gentlemen, to effect wihat we a-l betleve to be the best thing, but if that thing cannot be effected, I then desire to effect the next best thing, and this, I appreh.end to be the dictate of plain comlmtion sense. Admrrittinig to be correct all these gentletm claimrl; admtitting that within a few years, such a change will ?'ve taken place in public opinion il this state, as to rentider absolutely certain the attainirmiernt of a hard money currency, I have shown, and every gt-ntlemyan must see, that the attainment of this desirable end is not in any manner endangered or delayed, by the adoption of the section-s I have offered; but let us for a moment suppose that it is possible for these genitlemeu to be mistaken, that it is possible that they may not be infallible, that it is possible these gentlemen may be ig,norant of the future, although they know so well every thing past and present, aid(] what then? Why ti-is —:hat tihese gentlemen are al:oat to fasten upon the people of this state for an indefinite period of time, a system of plunder and robbery, against which, they have been struggling for years.-a system, that these gentlemen alnd nmyself consider corrul pt and demoralizinig, and but little, if allv better, than lI,-gtlized swindling. And are gentlemeln so sure that tlegy ki,ow~ precisely and exactly, lot what now is,- or Wllat has been, but what will be, that they are williitg to rull the risk? Are they willing to stake tibis fearful result upon their inifallibility? If they are, I am not. I have a very high opinion of the wisdom of these gell tlemeni, but thev must excuse, me, from pl icing implicit reliance upon their fore knowledge. Now I affirmii that the people expect and desire of us that we should do so,meth-itig with this question of the currency; although I call speak positively or those only, whom I represent. But I c.Aii s8y to my whig friends here, that I hlave not met with a single whig ill Richland county, amongst the rank and file of the party, but desired to have some11t constitutiional restriction uponrs the power of the Legislature to grant chairters hereafter; and more-over, I have never fiound a single individual in favor of the present banking system of the state; nor in favor of leaving to the Legislature the unrestricted exercise of the same power whlichl they nowa have, with reference3 to thsis mattetr.r I hlave found some whigs inutavor of suibmitti~)g the questions of banks or no banlks to the people, and itl ease of their eelsion in favor of banlks, to fail back upon a new It is my opiinioni that it would result in the advance ment of the best interests of the State, so to do. This opinion of mine is well known amongst the people whom I represent. it was frankly avowed over my own signraturc, before I was eleted to cone here. Aboutt ha at r that matter, there is no difference of opinion betwe en myself an a da majority of the people whomI I repres ent, so far as I caol ju dge-,having p laced mys elf upon that issue. But there is a no ther divi sion of delegat e s upon thie side, who desire to submi t to tilte people, the ques tion wh ether th ey shall have banks, or not. Anrd there is yet a fourth division of rmembers, composed perhaps, of f ragments fr om the other three divisions, who, in t he eve nt of a subm iss io n of the question, and a decis ion of the p eople in favor of pap er mon bey, desire t hat the Constitution shall contain a provision, to prevent tehe Legis l atu re from abusing th e authority whi ch they h ave eheretofore exercised in the granting of bank chart. ers. Ari d when we come to this point, I apprehend we shadll fid gentleerne on the other s ide, who desire iotlingr said of n this subject, in the Constitution, and gentlemen on this, who cl aim to be the "hardest of the ha rd," acting together in defeating such wholesome re strictions-of course gentlemen on the o ther side will s, o act, axd I fear some gentlembabe, on this s ide will so act. Fort they tell whti if they cannot get what they want, they will not have any thing. I do not propose to discuss this question with the gentlemen upon the othe r side of thechamber; but it is t)o those gentlemren al pon this side, who sar,that if they calnnot get identically w hat th ey want, they will not t;aen anytlhinlg, that I prop ose to addre ss myself. I sall, fo r ttle present, give oxter miy friends upon the oher sid e "t o hardn ess of heart and reprobacy of congcience." Mr. HARLAN fin his seat.) The prospect is about as dull on one side as on the other. Mr. KIRKWVOOD. I will accord to every man,upf~o every side, the widest latitude of opinion; I ask the hame on my owIn part; and I will have it, at any rate. I will express and vote my own opinions; amii I would rather escape censure and controversy HERE for so dont)g, if I could-not because I am afraid of it; but because it is unpleasant. If t he majority of thos e on this side of the chamber, cannot get exactly what they wan t, what is the nextbest thing for the todo? It has been t old me in private conversation, t hat we had better do nothing; that Citlifornia was b ringing in gold enough, so that, five or ten years hience, uind er the new mode of amendinvg the C on stitutio n whic h w e are likely t o adopt, we can get aju s t exactly what we want. Treerelre, it is best not t; o bind down the people to this plan. Well, if we did bined down the people by this plgo, th m h e r e would be force in the argument, but w e do not. The questionL of hard moniev can be submitted hereafter as well with tha sections as without tlhemy. I admit everything these g,enitlemt)ein claim. I admiit te)at the influx of gold would work a. rev(oIlutionj in the piubiio minid upon this subject; tanli tha t tfie end of five or ten vears we might take a vote agnal t t;[.},r money, and carry it by an overwhel a,iiing m),jority,-Ilow Coulid we be worse off with these provisions i;,l the Constitution than without them? ( Mr. KING interrupting —not heard.) What these gentlemenel want, is this: Taley want to leave this thing open, s ubject to all the abuses which h ve heretofore existed, and althoughl we may suffer these abuses five,or ten, or fifteen years longer, yet there is "d good!imne comling," when all will-be right. Very well; I pray how soon that good timhe may come, lit, in the meantimo,I want to save myself all I call 421' OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, JANUARY 28. constitutional alternative. I have seen not so much as one man, of either party, but what was in favor of' some constitutional action upon this question, either a total prohibition of paper money, or some restrictions upon the Legislative power of creating it. Then if we cannot obtain our preference, let us have the best practical thing that we can get. Although we may think that we can see "a good day a'comiug," still, we oughtt to guard as well as we can, the interests of the people, until it shall come. I address myself to practical men upon all sides of tlis chamber. Seeing that their extreme nIotioIIs can. not be adopted here, I ask them to come up, and do what they can, to remedy existing evils. I tell them that the people of the State, ask isis, at their hands,and that they will not be put off with an abstraction. . How would it look in me, to go home, and say to the people, your party had it in their power to save you from plunder, but they refused to do so, because they thought that some ten years hence, perhaps, they could do it more effectually? Here is a plain common-sense illustration of the principle: I have a field of grain, with a poor fence around it, and my neighbor's cattle are in the habit of breaking in, and destroying my crop. My neighbor makes to me a suggestion, that I had better repair my fence at once, by petting on an additional rail or two. But I reply, no; I shall wait until after harvest, and then I will make a good fence, from the ground up. I wait, and my crop is destroyed. -Mr. MITCHELL (interposing). But,suppose,your field to be a field of weeds? Mr. KIRKW OOD. But that is not the case, at all. Because the pockets of the people, with the bad inclosure, is the field, and [ want to repair the fence itnmmnediatelv. Mr. MITCHELL. Does the gentleman say in his place, thtat the protection of the interests of banking, would be to the advantage of the pockets of the people? pir. KORKWOOD. Ei ther the gentleman does not undertanld nie, or does not want to understand me. 1 say, that the people are interested not in the protectioii of' banks, but in preventing their plumiatrings and robberies. Our pockets are the cr('F; the banks tihe breachiy cattle, and our presenit cotistitution, theu bad fence. I dmliiiit. that the best fence could be coinstructed, by reilioving the old one entirely. But see.s lig tha t we cEiaiiot n ow do that, I am in lavor of putting oo the additional rail now, and nmaking the new letice as soon as I can. But then, gentlemeon say, we will take our timIe, and make a good one, and in the meanl timle, the crop can take care of itself. The peolde want some practical good to result from our ueltiberatioijs upon this subject. They know that it is ill our power to bring about such a result, and they will hold us responsible, if we do it II-t. I was desirous this morning, of giving to every niettiber of the Convention an opportulity of voting his seitliiieiiis directly upon every proposition wijic hlas been subtitted upoit this subject. But the action of extrelmes upon both sides of the Chamber, prevented tthis tron being done. 1 should vote against the amendment of the gentle t man frot 1Vtorgan also, butwich myamendhent, 1a wd'!iiig to vote for it; because I am anxious to effect some practical good. I am willing, and ready, to revor e am r iy v o te upon every i tropfosimion separatelgy I am w~lhlllg,, and would be glad, to test thle sen}se of the Ctmvtnition ill ainy way thlat a test can be had uponI t:;;.; zu::JUCEt *Hand thlen, at last, 1 sallbede willin~g to lake the best ttiitig that call be obtained, BullI shsallrecordI mny vote anti raise mIy voice bagainrst tile adjourinment ofI thins Convecation, without some attempt to protect thet people of Ohio from the system of bank plunder, under which they have suffered so long and so grievously. Mr. MITCHELL moved to filld the blank in th, airmendment of Mr. KIRKWOOD, with the word "tei.'1 On which motion, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted-yeas 10, nays 80, as follows. YEAS-Messrs. Collings, Greene of Defiance, Greeib of Ross, Holnes, Hootmnani, Jones, King, Mitchell, iMCtoud, and rhornpsoni of Stark-1o. NAYS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Bartlett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Bliekensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Curry, Dorsey,Ewing,Farr,Fiorenice, F orbes, Gllett, Gray, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan, Hawvkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, John son, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larw ill>. Leech (e i., Le adbetter, Lidey, Lodon, Manosu, M orehead, Morris, McCormick, Nash, Norri s, Ortotn, Otis, Patter so n, Peck, Quiglcey, Ranney, Reemein, Riddle, Rdoll,5 Sawyer, ScosMersn, ctt of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Staiber,S Stebbilns e, Stilwel, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, TownsThed, Warren, Wll-s iams, Wilson, Woodbury an d Preside nt-80. So the motion to fill the blank with the word teon" was dis agre ed to. Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to fill the blank with the, words "one hundred thousand." Mr. WOODBURY suggested "five handrfd thou. sand." The question th en being on filling the blank witlh the w ord s "fiv e hundred thous and," It was disagreed to. The question then beinthon fiineg the blan k wi th thl words,one hundred thousand," Mr. MANON moved to fill the blank with the words "two hund red thousand." On which motion, Mr. M.ANON demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted —yeas 35' nays 59, as follows: YnAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbo ld, Barsett of Preblea, Blickensderfer, Collings, Clor sey, Ewart, Forbes, Gilett Hard, Hlarlan, Hendersoni, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton Humphreville, Johnson, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Man on, ivMcCormrlick, 5Nash, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Smith of Highland, Smlith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell. Stidger, .Swan, Swift, Warren, Williamiis and Worthington —.$ NAYs —Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blair, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll. Cahill, Case of Licking, Chambers, Ghaney, Clark, Cook, Curry, Ewing, Farr, Florence Gray, Greene of Dlefiance, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamiltoln, Hawkins, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, King, Larwill. Leech, Leadbetter, Lidley, Loudon, Mitciell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Orton, Peck, Quigley, Itatney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison), Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanbery, Stebbins 'ticki,ey, Struble, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thomripson of Stark, I'ownsbend, Wilson, Woodbury and President-59. So the motion to fill the blank witth the words "one hundred thousand," was disagreed to. Mr. ARCHBOLD moved to fill the blank with the words -four hundred thousand," which was disagreed to. Mr. McCORMICK moved to fill the blank with the words "three hundred thousanid."1 Fir. ARCHiBOLD demanded the yeas and nays, which bein~g ordered, resulted yeas 32, nays 59, as fol YEAH —Messrs. Andrews, Archhold, Barnett of Preble, Blic~kenlsderfe-r, Coilings,;l)crsey, Ew art, //and1, Hurlaft /fitchcock OS Geaga, //orton, /-uniphr~eV:ile, Johnson. he1nnon, Kirkwo()d, Lar~:h, MaBno, McCormick, 1%sh, 1Norris, (tis, l attercson, lIeemlCin, Sm-ith of Highla~nd, Emithi of B~arren, Stilwell, Swan, SwiAN Taylor, W9arren, villiams6 anid ~Vorthington —3C2. h~., -Messts. Burner of Montgomery, Bates, Blair, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chum i i 422 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, JANUARY 28. bers, Chaney, Clark, Coo!, Ewing,'tlorence, Forbes, Gillett, Gr-ay, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamiltotl, H.wkins, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, Kitin Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loud)n, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Orton, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney o ;tidger, Strabie, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Wilson, Woodbury and President-59. So the m,tioii to fill the blank with the words "three hunldred thousand," was disagreed to. Mr. M-ASON N moved to fill the blank with the words "two hundredt and fifty thousand." Mr. SAWYER moved the previous question. The question then being, "shall the imain question be mow p,at," I Mr. SAWYER demanided the yeas and liays, which being erdered resulted, yeas 48, nays 45, as follows: YEAc-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chaney. Clark, Cook, i)orsey, Ewing, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiarce, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootmani, Humphreville. Hunt Jones, King, Lidey, Loudon, Morris, McCormick, Orton, mis, Patterson, Peck, Ranaey, Reemelin, ILtiddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Har,.son, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Stehbins, Struble, Swift,'owlshend, Wilson, ,Voodbiry and Presideltt-48. 'NAYS —Mespsrso Andrews, Btrnet of Montgomery, Barnett ,of Preble, Bat s, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Li;king, Chambers. Collings, Curry, Ewart, ?Floence, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Itortea, iHunter, Johnson Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lar. will Leadbetter Manon, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, Nashi, Norris, Quigtey, Smith of Highland. Stanbery, Statuton., Stilwell, Stickiney, Stidger, SWan, Taylor, Thompson ,of Shelby, Thiompson of Stark, Warren, Williams and Worthiag. tont-45. So tl-he call for the previous question was sustained The question then being on filling the blank with the words "tw,o hlt ttdred aHud fifty thousand," Mr. MASSON demanded the yeas and nays, which be.itg ordered, resulted yeas 34, nays 60, as follows: Yc.s-Messrs. Anlrews, Archbold, Barnett of Preble, Bltckensderfer, Cianey,..ollings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Greg, Hard, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hor-on, Humphrevile, Johnson, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh. Manna, McCormtck, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Smith of -ighlaad,Srmithl of Warren, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Swift, VWarren, WAillians and Worthington-34. N,ys-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blair, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Cham. bers, Clark, Carry, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamiltoi, Hawklins. Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, King, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Mitchell, Morelea, Mlorris, McClond, Nash, Orton, Peck, Quigley iRauney, +eemeliii, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scottof Harrison 'cott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, SAickney, Struble, Taylor,'Thlompson of Shelby, Thompson ,o Stark, Townshetil. Wilson, Woodbury and President-60. 'So the motion to fill the blank with the words "two hundred and fifty thousand," was disagreed to. The question thee being on filling the blank with the words "'one hundred thousand," Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted yeas 34, nays 60, as follows: YrAts-MessC s. Archlt o!f, l Bate, lar,ett of Pele. Bates, Clark, ofG)'lincsC, Cook, Ke-,vart G'e.g, Har,la.,, Heiderson, Hitchcock of CGeajgaa., H~lt, tI,iiph;'eville, tlight, Johlnson-, Kennon, Kirkwoo~i, larwill, Leadbetter, Mahiotu, MvCoi-iick, Norris, Otis, Patte-son, Q!iiglev, Sawye, Smith of Warren, Sidgaer, Swaii, Swift,'I'aylo1, Warr-en, Williams andi President- 34. NAzs —Me~srs. Andrievws, Barnet of Monitgomnery, Blair, Bickensderfir, B r own of Athlens. B-owni of Carroll, Cahlll, Ctse of L'ckillg, Ch1atnbers, Clmney. Cuarry, Dorsey, Ewilg, Fioren'e. aF'lhes, G l'ett Gray, Greeaie otl Defiaice, Gteell of Res, G-oesbee'k, Hamilton. Htrd, tlawkins, Holimes, Hootman,l H,rton,S H;ziter, Jon~es, Kia~,r Lar-sh, Leec~h, Lidey, London cM4citll, Morehead, Morris, M'Clond, Nash, Orton, Peck, tanihey. Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Atig'a.izra Sellers, Stitith of H gliland, Staehery, Stanton, iftetlitls, Stitwael, Stickney, &rtihle, Thompson of Shelhy, Taomnnpsoti of Stark, Townshenid, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthington-S0. hundred thousand," was disagreed to. The question then being onl M r. KIRKWOOD,'S amendment, That gentleman demanded the yeas and arays, which being ordered, resulted yeas 20, nays 74, as follow s: Yzs s-MeAssrs. Archbo ld, Chat,e ar, Clark Fo Ge, Hnders on, Holt, Hootmain, RInetihreville b HoIit, Kenlnon, Ki rkwood, .eadheiter. no l, Mano, McCormick, Norris, Ortoi, Patterson, Swa,P, Swif t aid Presideit-20. NAYs-Messrs. Ad ddrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates. Blair, Blin,kensiderfer,. BIrown of Atlelys, Brown or Carroll, Cahill, Ca.e of Licking, Cham be rs, Collings, Cook, CurynDr ry, DBi orseyr, reute, E Giet, Florece, Gillet Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross Gregg, Groesbeck, HamIton, oHa,d, Harlan, Hawkins, iitch co ck of Geaug ja, Holhres, Horton, Inunter, Johnson, Jones, King, Larsh, Larwil, leech, Lide y. Lo udon, Mitch llell, Mo reh ead, M or ris, MNcCloid. Nash, Otis, Peck, QCtigley, Ranniiey, Reeltnelin, Riddle, Roll Saw, yer, Sco tt of Harrison, Scott of Au,tlaize, Sellers, Sm;ith of HiS.htlatod, Smith of Warre n, Stanhery, SLanitoln, etebbiis, Stilwell, Sticknev. Stidgter. Struble, Tavior, Tioinp.sone of Shelby, Thoripson of Stark, TownTs h eud, Waren. Wiliams, Wilson, Woodbury anid Worthington-74. So the amendment to the amendment, was disagreed to. The question then being on agreeing to N4,r. HAwmINS amendment, Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted, yeas 19, nays 65, as follow-: YE:.s-MBs sr s. Archbold, Ca se of LLckiin, Cook, Dorsey Gillett, H ard, Hawkins, H i tchcock of Geauna. HuLsph eville, Johnson, Kennoni, MahoU, Patterson,S SSott of Harrison, Stantot, Swift, Warren. Will iams ard Wort oi duto n a-9. NSys-Messrs. Anidrews, Barnet of Montg,omnery, Barnelt of P:el;e, Bates, Blair, Blickenisderfer, Brown of Altheiis, B'ow of (Carroql, Catfill, Chlatlers, Clianey, C!ark. Collings, Curiry, Ewast, EwIay, Florence. Foroyes. Gtah, GCreed e tf Deftiane, Green of Ross, GreggL, Ge-oesbeck. Hatmii[toai, Harlan, Hend(lerson, HH r!iJ nes, Holt, H)otona er, Hortte on. unt, Huter, Jnes King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwi:l, Lee(ch,. Leadibette-. Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Morehead, Moree ris, McHold, H,Cormick, Nash s,N Onton, OtNis, oPeck, OQigey, Ran ey, Reenelin Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smijith of H!.ghland, Smtlith of Warren, Stanihery, Stebhbits,.4tilwe'l, S;ickney, Stidger, Strtil)le, Swani. TJaylor, Thornesoni of Shelby, Thtc,rsoln of Stark, Townshenid, Wilson, Woodbury and Presi(ent _. So the amendment was disagreed to. The question then being on ordering the Report to be engrossed; Mr. SAWYER demanded a division. The question then being on ordering the first section to be engrossed; Mr. LEECH demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted yeas 47, nays 47, as follows: YE.xs —Nessrs. Archbold. Blair. Cabill. Chaney. C'ark, Ewing, Forbles, G,'eeiie of Defiance, G-e,-,,, Groesbeck, Henderson, Holnmes, H(lt, Hootmani, Hunt, Jones, KiniX, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leeci, Leadletter, Lidey, London, Miicheil, MIeCorraick, Norris, Orton, Qui,:ley. Ranitey, Reerrelin, Ri(ldle, Roll, Saw. ver, Scott of Aulvia'aize, Se'lers, Stebbiins, Stickney, Stidger, Siraile., Swan. Swift, Taylor. Thompson of Shelhy, Thonipson of Stark, Towrishejid, Wilson anid President-17. NAs — Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Prehle, Bates. Biickeiisde-fer, Brown of Athers. Brown of Carroll, Case of Lickinig, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Cuirry, Dorsey, Ewvart, Florencee, Gil'ett, Gray, Green of Ross. Hamilto.l, Haid. Harlani, Hawkins, Hitchock of Geauga Hort(n, Himphrlii-eville, Hunter, John,son, Kennron, Larsh, Mancn, Morelheani, Morris, McC,oud, Nash, Otis, Patt,,,rson, leck, Scottof Harrisoni. Smrlith of Hiahlanid, Smith of Warren, Stan bery. Stanton, Stilwell, Warren, Williams, Woodbury and Worthinxgton —47. So the Convention refused to order the first sectioh to be engrossed.-. The question then being on ordering the second section to be engrossed, Mr. S;AWYER demanded the y eas and nays, which being ordered, resulted —yeas 38, nays 57, as follows: YE~.s-Messrs. B'air, Cabill, Clark;, Ewing, Forbes, Greene of D~efiane.e G:'e_e, Creesbec-k. Hen~dersonl, Holmes, Hootmran, Hunt, Jones, Kina, Kirkwood, Larwill, LeechI, L~eadbetter, L~dey, London1, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Quigley, Ranney, 423 424 OI0IO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNFS:)AY, JANUARY 29. R1e'.n!inl. Rgitle, R,I!., Scott of A S!ttaize, Se'ers, Stelbbils, 8;ickney'~ Stidgt,-^, SttLrble, ~Swilt, Timimpsoji of Stark, Wilson aj( lPes dell —8. NAY.-& -'e Aoss es. Anes Arch,old, Barinet of Monlgtoirer T Bai,llt of Prel,e, B! t'e s, B i cke~,sdertes, Browin of Athel,s, Bro-,'wn of Carroll. Cace (d' L ckinr. C!,ain!e,-s, Cha,lev.C(,l inrs. (,'Ools, Cuir,ry, D)sey, E va,-t, Fl,,'-eiice, Gileltt, G;.ay, G;'cen of R-)ss. Haiiltlion, Ha i, Harlan, Hawkins, lit,ticock of G.aura, elo't. H:,,-to, 1 tf revi'e, Hi,nite!-, Jiah,,son, Ke,Siol Lx:'sl,, M~alm.] lo:'e. headl, Morr!is, MIClotd(l, M:,C;rijfi, k, Nash, O;s. Paite:-so},. Pecek, IPerkinis, Sawver, Scott of Harr-ison. Smitl} (I' Hiih,ilta,(I, 8mlti of V arren. Stanilberv, Staniton, S,i{!well Sw.-a, Taylo-, Thoimpson of Shielt,y Townshendi, Warren Wil,"aii.s, Woodlbury alid Worthliingtoii-57. So the motion to refer was agreed to. The President then announced Messrs. LEECnI, OR TON, an d HAMrITOeN, as said corimmittee. Mr. SWAN wished to state to the Convention that, hi e ihad yesterday voted( under a misapprehension; upon the question to engross the third section of the Report of the coi-ymittee on Banking attd Currency He gave his vote in the affirmative, under a wrong idea of the terms of an amendment which had been adopted to the section. If lie had properly understood it, he should have voted in the negative. He asked leave therefore to change his vote, and to have the sam-e recorded, which was agreed to. On beinig called, Mr. SWAN voted no. Mr. CASE of Hocking, said that he had yesterday been prevented by sickness fitom comiiig to the hall and giving his vote upon the questions arising under the report of the commiittee oil Banking and CuiTen cv. Iii justice to his owll opinions, and to place his course properly before his constituents, hlie desired, if the Convention would permit, to record his vote. The PRESIDENT. It can be done by the consent of the Convention, provided it does not change the result. There was one vote that was a tie, and a single vote might make a clhainge. Perhaps the gentleman can state how he wou ldeave voted. Mr. CASE said he wou ld hllave voted t o submit, the qrestion t o th e people, up on the ter gs proposed bythe gentleman f rom Mo rgan, (Mr. Hwins,) and should have v oted agai st te ergrossmeni t of each, section of th e R eport. T h e PRESIDENT. ThatswoutIdl ot have clang.ed the result, in ether case. Mr. CASE. I t hen as k le ave to recotrd my vote upon allthhose questions. The question being: shall leave be granted; some vices opposing Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, thought the gentleman from Hocking had attained his object, without a formal record of his vote. His position was understood, and that was all he required. Bes-ides, if the practice should be admitted, sliihoi(l g(,t irate difflceulty, for other members of the Convention were absent, an-d would claim the samne privilege. Mr. CASE theni witlidrew his request. On motion of Mr. HARLAN, the Convention took, tip the report of the committee on Public Debts andi Public Works. Mr. BARNETT of Preble, proposed merely to say that the report, as amiiended, did not appear liable to. the objection he had raised against it the, other day, wlhen it was up before the CCoIIvention.i He now thought the sectioni w-ould bear the constructioa put, upon it by the chairman of the comrnittee, anxd he had now no objection to it going ilnto tlhe Coustitu — tionl. The question then being uipon thre amenidmni-t of the commrittee, the same was agreed to. Mr. GREGG said he had not understood the ques-. tion, and desired to move an am-endmnent to the amendment, before it wsas acted upcon. Not having voted upon the question, he supposed he lind no, right, to rove a reconsideration. Mr. HARLAN ha3vIng votedl with the mlajority, to~ accommodate the gent,lemlan froma Clolumbiana,; (.Mr 3}~}:Go) mov~ed that the vote on;agrreeitsd to,section first,, be reconsidered. The question then being on the recon1side-ralien — Mr. MlTCf:ELL, demanaded the yeas a.m~ nays8. Mr. GREGG( de:~red thle indullgencee of the C~omvlen;ion, w-hile hei said a fewv wordsQ upon thez ~uestfons presentec' by the firast section of the repelit. As htad 9een stated bv thse chairm~anl of th,: comml~ittee that pre~sented it, it p~laced in the h1ands of the leistiature ~;o So the Convention refused to order the second section to be engrossed. The question then being on ordering the third section to be enigrossed; Mr. LEECH demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted-yeas 43, niays 51, as follows. ~E.,s-Messrs: Blair, Cabill, Chaney, Clarki, Ewing, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Croesbeck, IHenderson, Hfolmes, Hiolt, Hootmain, Hunt, Jones, King, Kirlkwood, J,arwi I, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Norris, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, g!'ellers, Stebbins, Stickney~ Stidger, fitruble. Swan-i, Swift, Thompsson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Towvnshend, Wilson and President-43 *AvYs-Messrs. Andrews, Arclhbold, Barinet of Montgomery, B;irnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Br ow n cf Atheus, Brown of Carroll, Case of icliing, t hambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, iorsey, Ewart, Flo,ence, Gillett, Gray Green of Ross. Hamilton, Hard, Hal'an Hawkins, Hitclhcock of Geauga, Ioiton, Humuhreville, Hunter, Johnson, Kennon, Larsh, Manon, Morehead, Nlorris, M(;iloud, McCormick, i ash, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Itxrrison, Smith of Highliland, Smithl of Warren, Stanhery, fitanton, Stilwell, Taylor, Warrein, Williams, Woodbury and Worthington-51. So thee Convention refused to order the third section to be elngrossed. O inmotion of Mr. HOLMES, the Conveetion adjournied. ONE HUNDREDTH DAY. WVED,ESDAY, Jan. 29, 1851. 9 o'clock, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by Rev. Mr. Pressly. Mr. EWART presented a petition from D. E Gardner and one hundred and eighty-three other citizens of Washington county, praying that a clause be inserted in the new Constitution, prohibitiug the Legislature froml passinig any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors, whiclh on motion of the same gentleman, was laid on the talle. On mi-otion of Mr. LEECH, the Convention took up the commiunication from the Ohio Editorial Conrvetntionl. The same gentleman moved that the commnunication be referred to a select commitee of three. On w,,hich motion Mr. CLARK demanded the ye,-s and inays, which being ordered, resulted, yeas 66, nays 22, as follow s: ~ EAS —.ilessrs. Bennett, Blair. Blickensderfer, Calhill, Chambers, Chaney, Dorsey, Ewa.rt, Ewing, Florence, orbes, Gil lett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Greg,, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan. Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcoclk of Geauga, Holmes Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt,.Johiason,.Tones Kenilon, King, Kirkwocid, Larwill, Leech, Io udon, Mitchell, Morris, McCormick Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Periins, Quigley, Ranhey, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of A.glaize, Sellers, Smi th, f Wa rren, Stanb.rys Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger. Struble, Swan, Taylor, Tho Tpson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Tow osliend, Warren, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President -66. BNatYS-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, ates, Brown of Athens. Brown of of Carroll, Case,f H[ockin", Clark, Collings, Cook, Grahar, Horton, Hunter, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Morehead, McCloud, Nash, Soith of Highland, Stantojn, Stilwell and Swift-2'2. s I 1 11 1 1 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 29 power to come up to the limit of debt prescribed re peat,edly, and as often as it pleases. It may run in debt seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars this year, the same su m next, and as much the year af t er, and so continue on uentil the cr edi t of the St ate is ex hausted. Now if sutch is the care, he ie wished, as the very least that, on behalf of his constituents, he could ask, to reduce th ie sum to a smaller admouent, and he would be glad to hear frow i the chairoan of the committee, his views upon the construction of th e section. i Mr. HAWKINS said the first ol)ctio to the sec tion, as, originally repo rted, wa s the objection stated by te t m a Teuetoto [r o the gen an fro C biaa [Mr. GREG that it placed it in tohe powe r of the Legislature to increase the amoiunt of the State debt by a yearly loan. This obj ection the cormmmittee had, by its awmendments, en deavored to o bviate; and to do so, he thouegh t th ey had ernow provided conclusively that, thougt, loa mned nat dif ferent times, the debt h ould n ever exceed ttte sum of seven hundred and fiftyt thousand dollars. At the sampe t ime, it does not deprive the State of the power after on e debt has bpen created and paid, to ipecur an other. A necessity tmay occur iieain 51, for the making of a loan, and it may be p ai d during the next year. An o ther want in 1856, may require another resort to b orrdowi ng; and to prohibit the Legislattire from doing so, b ecause one debt had been created and p aid, would be abs urd. As a membner of the Committee, h e pwosld say, that they had endeavore d to make the repor t con form to the wishes of t-e Convention. He woau ould like to d o so, but, at the sam e time, he was aware that it would b e impossible to suit t he p articular views of each individual member. Mr. GREGG saw no necessity for so large a sum as the maximum. He believed three hundred thousand i dollars would be ample to mn eet all the exigencies likely to arise, "to the farthest possible extent. He wanted, also, if the Coistitution shall provide for the creation of a debt, to see, also, in the saiue iorstrumaent, some provisions for its payment, at some time or other. He felt it his duty to say, that the people ird the p art of the Stat e wh ich he represegteu t ere opposed to every species and kind of public debt whatever. The vast present indebtednie-ss had been of no value to them —they had realized no benefit from its expenditure; and the burden of taxation which it had imposed upon them, had fallen heavy, and was still, and would long be remembered. He would, therefore, move an amendment to the section, by striking out the words "seven hundred and fifty," and inserting,the words "three hundred." Mr. MITCHELL said the time for such an amendmerit had gone by —the Convention having previously refused to strike out the words. T'he PhESIDEiNT said the motion to anmend was not in order-the motion to reconsider being first in order; and then it was dout tful if the motion to amend could be entertained, in the present condition of the bill. Mr. AIANON said he had been engaged in making a calculation, and he found that the sum proposed would create a debt to the amount of about seven cents and a half upon each man, woman and child, in Ohio. The question being on the reconsideration, Mr. MITCHELL withdrew his demanad for the yeas and nays. Thle question wras then disagreed to. The ot.her amendments of the co~mmittee were then agreed to. Mr. HAWKINS then moved that the bill be read a third time, and put upon its passage, which was agreed to. The question then being, shall the bill pass, ]Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas atnd nays. Mr. NASH desired to vote for this bill, but could , not vote for the 2nd and 3rd sections, as they stand. The committee bad miade no ecffoIrt to get the Legisla ture out of the difficulty he hid poinited out, in case they have a surplus on hand. If it caiiinot, under the circumrnstances, be applied to the conl iligelicy for wvhich it was borrowed, nor to'pav the debt created by its loan, it must lie unproductive in the Treasury untit that debt falls due. Mr. HAWKINS. If it cannot be applied to the t purpose for which it was raised, can it inot be appro priated to s-omie other? Mr. NASII. No. If the committee hald made the amendment I suggested, it miight have l)een done. At present the provision- w,ill do no good, but only I mischief. The words3 are words of restriction, and i will inevitably tie up the money from all uses, except those that are indicated. Mr. HAWKINS. If the words had been omitted, it would have permitted the money to be raised b the Legislature under pretence of one purpose, to a applied to another. To remove the objec'tions of the gentleman, would be to increase other objections ten fold. Money might be raised to pay a debt, and ap plied to another purpose, for one time at least; and if for one time, for aniother. |Mr. GREGG motved that the bill be recommitted to the standing committee on public debts and public works, with instructions to strike out seven hundred a nd fifty, a nd insert three hiiundre(. I Mr. GREGG said he was amnxious t o record his vot e upon this question, so that wiu s constituents could see how he stood upon it. Mr. BARNETT, of Preble, de mand ed a division of the question. The question then being on the recon.Witi nent, Mr. HOLMES could not -see the necessity for thlis recoMMnmitment. He thought the ys voirds of the section sufficiently explicit.. He did bo ot believe the gen tle nii,:from'OColhmbiana, [.,ILr. GrP:zGGa,] Would so wish to tie up the hands of the Le, isl at,re, co that it would be unable to provide for the public b e aidts. lie did not look upon the a-miou,nt as too large, or that the Legislature, under the present, circumstantces, would be likely to be profuse ini creating a debt. He had no fears on account of the objection of the gentleman from Gallia. He thought arny little balance over, after provioding for the con)tiing,racy, might be disposed of, under the Constitutioni. He should vote against the recommitment. Mr. STAN:BERY said he thought the construction of the gentleman from Gallia wvas inevitable. Suppose the State, to repel a threatened invasion, borrows a million of dollars for ten years. The danger passes away. There is a sur:plus of 99'0,00'0I dpollars. What is to be done? It cannot be applied to the payment of the debt, because it is not du,e. It cannot be applied to repel the invasion, because the invasion has not comne. It cannot be applied for any other purpose. What, then, is the objection that this money go into the general fund, and be applied to the sinking fund for the payment of our other debt? He would, at the proper time move an amenetdment for the purpose M~r. HAWKINS said all these things might be avoided, with a little prudence. In the first place, we would not borrow until the invaTsionl occurred. In the next place, w cwBould borro~w ib on such terms t~hat we mighit pay it back, if we; did not wanst it. The gentleman had intimated his oppo?siti~ln to the whole report. Hec did not know but thils was onie way in which he showed it. He thought, as had been shown by the genfiemanfrom 3Franlklin, [Mr. STiuNE;r,] that; 42 -D 426 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 29. greater abuses than those he dreads, would be the Mr. BENNETT suggested whether such a division result of the amendment be proposes. He hoped the on the final passage could be had. Would it not, in recommitment would not take place. effect, be throwing open the bill to amendment, by vo Mr. LARSH thought if it were worth our while to ting down a section, after the time of amendment had provide for a contingency at all, the sum of seven passed. hundred and fifty thousand dollarswas too small, The PRESIDENT said that whenever articles were rather than too large. susceptible of division into distinct provisions, it was He was opposed to the amendment proposed by the the rule to divide. The bill is divided into sections, gent]lman fromn Gallia, (Mr. NASH.) He did not de- each presenting some distinct proposition, and in his sire to give the General Assembly the power, under opinion it could be divided, and a vote taken upon the pretence of supplyinga deficiency in the revenue, each. to borrow money, andapply it to another purpose. He Mr. BLICKENSDERFER. Suppose the first sec did not want such a power to reside anywhere. As tion is rejected, and the remainder agreed to; is it to a member of the committee, he would say that the go into the constitution in that form, beginning, "In section expressed precisely what he wanted it to ex- addition to the above limited powers"? press. The PRESIDENT. The Chair thinks the question Mr. SWAN conceived the section to express pre- divisible, and if there is no appeal, the vote will be cisely what it ought to express. Suppose, in case a taken. million is raised, to repel invasion, and there is a sur- The question then being on the final passage of the plus, what is to be done? Her stock is in market. first section, the yeas and nays were ordered, and re It can be bought precisely at what it is worth. Would sulted, yeas 82, nays 12, as follows: not gentlemen prefer the money to go right back to YEAs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, repay thelebt created? The State, as the purchaser Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens,Cahill, Cer own debt, goes into the market shase o f H4ocking, Chambers, Chaney. Collings. Cook, Curry, of her own debt, goes into the market; she can do it Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, at its market value as well as an individual. He Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Groes thought such a course would prevent abuse, and beck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of would be the easiest and best mode of disposing of a Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leech, Lidey' surplus on hand. He should oppose the amendment. London, Mitchell Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Or. MIr.IHITCHCOCK of Geauga said he did notbelieve ton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, IRanney, Riddle, there was any danger that the Legislature would con- Roll, Sawyer, Scottol Harrison, Scott of Anglaize, Sellers, tract any unnecessary debts. We cannot foresee all Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, the circumstances that may occur in future. He Thompson of Shelby, Townshedu, Warren, Wiliams, Wilthought a surplus on hand might be applied in the son, Woodbury, Worthington and President- 82. mode suggested by the gentleman fronm Franklin, (Mr. NaYs-Messrs. Gregg, Humphreville, Henderson, King, SWA,i.) He therefore would prefer to have the report Larwill. Leadbetter, Manon, Mason, McCormick, Nash, Stidg-, SWAN.) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~ e ane Thompson of Sta~rk-12. remain as it is. He thought that after the debate that er firsThompson of St are-12 ISo the first section was agreedI to. had been had upon this bill, it would be improper to The question then beng on the adoption of the Se overset it, and go over the whole ground again, eud s ection: nmerely for an apprehended difficulty of this kind. M S Ho He thought the sum proposed by the gentleman from bMr.e NASe said to heer, andcontaind buthird se p itions. fact Golumbina (Mr GREGG too sall. {belonged together, and'contained but one proposition. GColumbiana (Mr. GREG,) too small. The PRESIDENT said hlie believed that to be true, Mr. GREGG said there was great latitude under the but as the demand for a division had been made and expression, to meet casual deficits and other expenses sustained, perhaps the Convention had better proceed nIt otherwise provided for. We all know how such by sections things begin and accumulate. Let us remember, the'The yeas and nays having been demanded, were new State House at Columbus; first started tobe com- ordered, and resulted, yeas 84, nays 11, as follows: pleted by Penitentiary labor alone, and now demand- YEAS-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of ing an annual appropriation of seventy thousand dol- Preble, Bennett, Blair, Blickensdeirfer, Brown of lars. He thought the sum of three hundred thousand Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, dollars enough. Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, The question then being on the recommitment, i Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray Mr. GREGG demanded the yeas and nays, which Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard were ordered, and resulted, yeas 25, nays 9, as fol- Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, lows: Holmes, Holt, Hootmnan, Horton, Hu inpbreville, Hunt, YEAs-Messrs. Cahill, Clark, Forbes, Gregg, Henderson, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Larsh, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mason, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Nash, Quigley, Ranney, Scott of Auglaize, Stidger, Struble, Taylor, Thomp- Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patson of Starkl and Wilson-25. terson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Rannev, Riddle, Roll, NAYS-Messrs. Barnet of lMontgomery, Bates, Bennett, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of f[ighland.SSmith Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, of Warren Stanbery Stanton Stebbins Stilwell Case of Hocking, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townsbend, Warren Hard, Harlan, Hawklins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and PresHorton, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Lar h, adent-84. Mahon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Roll I NAYS-Messrs. Bates, Clark, Greene of Defiance, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland Leech Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Nash, Scott of Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Auglaize, Sellers and Stidger-11. Stickney, Swan, Swift, Thoemson of Shelby, Townshend, So the second section was agreed to. Warren, Williams, Woodbury, Worthington and President the stion ten bas the to. -— 6. The question then being on the passage of th~e So the motion to recommit was disagreed to. third section, it was agreed to. The question then being on the finalpassage of the The question then being on the passage of the report:'fourth section: ~l. MITCHELL demanded a division of the vote. Mr B3ARNETT of Preble demnanded the yeas and OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE,NFsDAY, JANUARY 29. nays, which, being ordered, resulted, yeas 89, nays 6; Ross, Hamilton, Mason, Morris, Nash, Peek, Stallton as follows: Stidger, Williams, and Worthington-16. YEAS-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Ben- So section six was passed. nett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown The question then being on the passage of sections of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Clark, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11; Collilugs, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Mr. GREEN of Ross demanded the yeas and nays, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, which being ordered, resulted yeas 76, nays 18, as folGreen of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, lows: Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, YEAS- Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett ol Holmes, Holt, Hootmnan, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of HockLarsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, ing, Chamnbers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, EwManon, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, M'Cor- art, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of mick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Har- Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, rison, Scott of Auglaize. Sellers, Smith of Highland, Holt, Hootman,Horton,Hunt, Hunter, Johnson,Jones, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stick- Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, London, ney, Stidger,Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, MClOoud, Nash, of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Towrshend, Warren, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, QuigWilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-89. ley, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Smith NAYS-Messrs. BarnettofPreble, Chambers, Mason, of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stebbins, Nash, Stanton and Williams-6. Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, Townshend So the fourth section was agreed to. Warren, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and Presi The question then being on the passage of section dent-76. five: NAYS-Messrs. Clark, Curry, Green of Ross, Hum Mr. LARWILL demanded the yeas and nays, which phreville, King, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, McCorbeing ordered, resulted yeas 94, nlays 1, as follows: mick, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanbery YEAS-M.essrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of lStidger, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown Stark and Williams-18. of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, So sections 7,8, 9, 10 and 11 were passed. Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Curry, The question then being on the passage of sections Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett 12 and 13, they were agreed to. Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, On motion of Mr. HENDERSON, the report was Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hen- referred to the committee on Revision, Enrollment derson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, and Arrangement. Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Mr. GREEN of Ross, on leave, presented sundry Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, petitions from P. D. Green, Sarah R. Martin, and one Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Manon, Mitchell, More- hundred and twenty-one other females, of Ross counhead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, ty, praying that a clause be inserted in the new conOrton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ran stitution, prohibiting the legislature from passing any ney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors, which on Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of War- motion, were laid on the table. ren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbius, Stilwell, Stickney, On motion of Mr. MANON, the Convention resolvStidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of ed itself into a committee of the Whole-Mr. STANBEShelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Warren, nY in the Chair. Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and Pres- The order of the day being the report of the Standident-94. ing Committee on Future amendments to the Consti NAYS-Mr. Mason-1. tution: So the fifth section was passed. Mr. LARSH moved that the first section of the re The question then being on the passage_of section port be stricken out. six, The question then being on striking out: Mr. MORRIS demanded the yeas and nays, which Mr. DORSEY moved to amend the section by strikbeing ordered, resulted —yeas 78, nays 16; as fol- ing out all after the word "to," in the second line, lows: and inserting in lieu thereof as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Ben-,- by a majority of the members elected to each nett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Case of Hocking house, each proposed armendment or amendments Chamibers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Ewart shall be entered on their journals, with the yeas and Farr, Forence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, nays taken thereon, and the Secretary of State shall Gregg,Groesbeck, liard,Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, cause the same to be published in at least one news Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hor- paper in every county in which a newspaper shall be ton, Humphreville, Hunt, -Hunter, Johnson, Jones, published; and if in the Legislature next afterwards Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, chosen, such proposed amendment or amendments Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Manlon, Mitchell, More- shall be agreed to by a majority of the memibers electhead, McCloud, McCormick, Norris,Orton, Otis, Pat- ed to each house, the Secretary of the Commonwealth terson,Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Saw- shall cause the same again to be published in manner yer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, aforesaid, and such proposed amendment or amendSmith of Highland, Snith of Warren, Stanbery, ments, shall be submitted to the people in such manStebbins, St ilwell, Stickney, Struble, Swan, Swift, ner, and at such time, at least three months after beTaylor, Thompson ofShelby, Thompson of Stark, ing so agreed to by the two houses, as the Legislature Townshend, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury and Presi- shall prescribe; and if the people shall approve and dent-:-78. ratify such amendment or amendments by a majority NAYS-Messrs. Barnet of Preble, Brown of Athens, of the qualified voters of this State voting thereon Brown of Carroll, Curry, Dorsey, Ewing, Green of such amendment or amendments shall become ap 427 428 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-\-WrNESt)AY, JANUARY 29. of the Constitution, but no amendnent or amend- The question beinig onl the passJ, e of the section: meatts shall be submitted to the people oftener than Mr. LARSHI was afraidt thl opera-ition of the section once in five veairs. Provided, that if more than one would be, to turn the State itnto a per!)etii] constito amendmenit be submitted, they shall be submitted in tional convention. We are puittiiig it in thei pwer of such manner an,d form, that the people may vote for' the Legislature to he const,illv red'dli ag with not on or againust each aLmenidmenit, sepatrately and dis- I v the statute, but the ol-gatic l;tw itself. le thought tinctre~~~l-ly.~~~ tite report sufficient without t)-is section. He doubted Mr. DORSEY sail the amendment proposed was whether this plan would, as oiteiled, redluce the ex taken fromn the tenthli article of the Constitution of pense of amending the co)st itti. Tih) e expense of Pennsylvania. It would be seen that it does away advertising alone would be inany It iousand dollars. Ie with all necessity for calling a Convention to revise did not wish to puit it in tihe pow-er of aniy man or set the Constitultion. It submits the amendments direct- of men, to interfere in itirs of the riost vital conse ly to a vote of the people. He thought, before we quence in the State He reetalled a renliark that fell got through here, we slhiuld all see the difficulties of from the gentleman from Tri,rlt)bull, (Mr. RANNEY,) such Conventions, enoughl to be willing to avoid, if that it mattered little what went inito this constitution possible., the calling of such bodies. for it would contain iin itself a recuper:tive power that Mr. HAWKIINS demanded a division of the ques- would always secure its amendileit. No-w he would tion. say that if this section went in, it diil lma ier little what The question then being on striking out. else the instrtimeiit should contain. He moved to Mr. RANNEY said the provision in the Constitu- strike out the first sectiu). tionr of Pennsylvatnia provided for a vote upon the The question then being on striking oat, the same amendment at two sessions of the Legislature. That was disagreed to. was arranged in reference to annual sessions of thel The second section was read. General Assembly. Here we are to have biennial Mr. MANON moved to strile out the second see sessions. It will theiefore take five years before the tion. question can be submitted to the people. In Penn- Mr. NASH moved to amend the second section in sylvania only a bare majority at each session is nec- the seventh line, by striking out ther wer(is "General essary; here, whNiere it is submitted at one session, we Assembly," and inserting the words "House of Repreprovide that it shall be agreed to by three fifths of sentatives." the nmeribers of each branch of the Legislature. We Mr. NASH tlhouglt the section as it stood would provide t,bat six months prior to the time it is to be make the conventioni uiiiecessariy l,rge. submitted to the people, it is to be published in each Mr. LARSH said that the, siz, uler the proposed county in the State. He thought the amrendment system of apportionmenti, wotll! be uticertain. ropeosed would place the thing too far off, if we, Mr. RANNEY was not tetiacio is urion the subject, ope to enjoy the benefits of it in our own life though he preferred the report as it stood. timle. They mnight accrue to our children, but The question being on the aentrtdmnert, they will be out of the way of men on the stage when Mr. LIDEY demanlded a division (,f the question. it is proposed The question being on striking out, there being no Mr. I)ORSEY thought the amendment brought quorum: amendmrents near enough. Its excellence is that the Mr. HITCHCOCK moved thlat the committee rise matter will be effect,udlly determined at the next, sue- and report; which was egreed to-); and the committee ceed(lin, Legislature, by the election of men with ref- rose and the chairmani reported that the comtmittee had erence to the anmendments. Their action will be an had tinder considerailn the reli:out of the standing exponeout of the will of the people on the subject. committee on future anietidmenlts to the constitution, The question then may be submitted at the next gen- and had come to no res,Iolutio tihi'eeoi. eral elfction, aud if approved, it becomes a part of On tiiotion of Mr. BARNETT of Preble, the conthe Consti.ttioll. It provides against too rapid and vention took a recess. constant ametndments, and establishes the principle, that all amendments shall be approved by the people. ATNOOSsso. Mr. R NNEY. Do,es the gentleman from Miami 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. (Mr. DoRSEY,) contend that we do not propose to submit amendmtents to the people? The convention met: Mr. DORSEY. Certainly not. On motion of Mr. HUNTER, the Convention re Mr. RANNEY. Why then does he claim that as a solved itself into commtittee of the whole, on the order peculiar excellence of lhis anmendmnent? He objected, of the day; Mr. STANBERY il the Chair. to it as occupyiing too much time. The subject undler consideration )eicJg the report of Mr. LARWILL was opposed to the amendment, the standing comminfttee onii future aneildments to the because it throw's open the C/onstitution to be ameud-i constitution, the question inii order was the motion of ed by the Legislature and not by the people. Mr.NASH,to strike out the of seventil liue of the seventh Mr. DORSLY. Oh no. section. the words "Geiieral Assembly," to insert the Mr. LARWILL. I so understood it. I may have words "House of Representatives" —upon which mobeen niistaken. There is another reason; it talesO tion a division had been dema'nded: too much time. I like the report of the comm~itteo Mr. MANON wasin favorof the amendment. lie well enough, and shall vote for it. thought by its adoption, the evils of too large an as The question then being on striking out, the same sembly would be avoided,;while at the same time, for was dtsagreed to. all purposes necessary to be secured, a less iumber letr. CHAMBERS moved to amend the first section than that provided for in the report would answer as by inserting it. the second line, after the word "by," well. the words "the separate vote of." Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga said it might be true Mr. SAWYER said the amendmenf was out of or- that a less number would do. It was difficult to tell der, the conivention having approved of the words, by how small a body might make a constitution, if the refusing to strike them out. duty should devolve upon it. But it seemed to him The question then being on the amendment, the same that while we have a governmeut founded upon the was disagreed to. popular will, it would be better not to destroy the rep OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE,:;NESDAY, JANUARY 2.9. resentative system. If, for instance, we should en- thirty members, anl) there may beless, a,d g,-ntlemer trust the legislative power of the State, to the wisdom burely will not insist that in a State wliicli oi;ly coInand discretion of one man, he might mnake such laws tain a population of four, five or six nilioius of itlabas would be uti ceptionat:le, but such a course would itants, aud will have accurnmu'ated interests of infinit~ not be consistent with the principles uplon which variety and vast magnitude,a convenltion of one hunthe government is founded, and the result would be dred and thirty imemtnbers will be too large. Surely an absolute monarchy, however disguised under repub- such a body, if such an one will ever,it, will have a licant termis or contsiideritiou of econlomy. mighty duty to perform, a most weiglity resp(nsit)ility Perh,psit is true thata dozen men will agree in unon its hands. He wis glad to hear bis friend from opinion inore readily than one hundred and eight; the Wayne [Mr. LARWILL] notice the petty considlerationr fruits o. the deliberations of tite one hundred and eight, that had been urged upon tile subject of thIe expense of will be received and adopted with more confidence, a large convention, above that of a snmall one. W'hy, than these of the dozen. By the arguments of gen- Sir, all the expense which the people of Oh.io have iatiemen, it would aeemi as if they were desirous to in- curred fiomn the sittings of thlis body, will not exceed terfere with our system of governinent. T'hey seem three or four cents a piece for each individual; and if even to distrust the benefits of the government itself. we are to look forward to the tnle when this work is He should vote against the amendment. again to be undertaklien by our posterity, aid look at Mr. BARNET'R of Preble, saili that a large number the question in view of the probable wealtlh and p puof member, added safety and certainty to tthe delibera laton at that time, the burdei it will iii —)se will iot tioIs of a representative body, and to its results. They be greater than one or two ceuts apiece It is certainly were far more likely to produce a perfect instrument. to be hoped that the periodls at which it will be neces It was true, thee were two extremes, ech of wic sary to revise the organic law of the laud, will not fre Itwstrued, tirfwr twosextree, beachoiddf theconetioner should, if possible, be avoided. If tlecotivention were qiuently occur, but when, perhaps, half a century too large, it would be uniwi(idy, and the difficulty of hence, the State shall have made a vast stride forward, arriving at a conclusion, would be too great. On the in all the arts of life and civilization, whei ste shall colntrary, if too small, it would not inspire confidence have licreased in wealth aud doubled bv many times in the people. It matters not how intelligent a body the number and variety of her vast cormmercial and innay be, or how great the minds it contains; it will be dstrial lerests-when se sall ave iproved frequently foun id, that suggestions were made by nie maiiy respects, that we cannot now eaven conceive of, of even very limited intellect, which would be found a contvention ot one hundred aud thirty mren to lay extremely v aluabl e. H e appealed to the chlairial of ao tl foundations of the governlieit of so vast a the committee, if he had not frequently found it so. State, will lnt be to) great, to give that miute atd fa Our tystem of governmeut is of such a character miliar representation, whichl onl such occasions is abthat it is necessary that every part of the State shoull solutely necessary. be represented. Tte question is, can it be done under The question then being on strikiig out, the ame the system proposed ill the auendinent of the geuntle- was agreed o; ayes 41 as man from Gallia, (Mr. NASH?) For one, he was dis- The question then being on inserting the words of posed to think it could. lie thoughtaconventionico- the amendmeut, the same was agreed to The quesindet then baei onasti) outee teseon posed of an hlundred or a hundred and ten members The q,esti te big on strikig out the second Tec qetioni then s aein was agreedgo thseon large enough to reresent fairly every part of the State sectio, the same as agreed to. and every ilterestof the peo)le; whileit was obvious, lhe third section being uder consideration Mr. ChAMBEPoed toir setrike' bei snercosdrtion,M. a body of only thirty would be too small. The ques CH- MERS oved to lrikeout the thit sectio. M.COLLINGS moved to strike out the fhirst secio, tion is purely a. piractical one, and should be discussed Mr COLLINGS ved to strike out the firs part and decided upon the experience of gentlemen who of the saie section to the word "but," inclusive, in thl e sevenith line. ltave had experience in and have studied the philosophy evepathp line. of deliberative assemnblies. [The part proposed to be siricken out by the motion of deliberative assemblies. ofMr. COLI,ING3, provides that ontce in twenty years a Mr. LARWILL rld not feel disposed to favor the o ,,, d i d n.tfeel to f vote of the people shall be taken upon the calling of a amenoment of the gentleman from Gallia,(Mr. NAsH.) ConVeto] He thought that against the time when the people of Mr. CHAAIBERS said that the motion of the gen the State would reqiiire another revision of their or- tleman from Adans, (Mr. COLLINGS,) accorded with ganic law, that the State will have so increaced iI iuitni- his own views, and did niot interfere with his motion. bers and i-portaiice, that the couvention ought to'con- In fact it included the objectionable part of the sectaim as many mrembers as there shall be, under this ti. constitution in bothi branches of the General Assembly. I He thought that, all that was necssa, as sipl ,,.,,,,. ^ ~~~~~I e thoulght that, all that was nlecessar!, was.sire 1a ie b,:lieved( that such was the opinion of the people at to provide that whlen the Legislature should deem it large, and believing so, he should vote against the necessary to call a Convention, it might do so That arneudroent. Gentlemrnen had sp)oketi of the difference was done in aunother part of the report. Other provisin expetse between a small body and a large one. This ions had also been made for amendnment. Why then ihe lookei upon as amere trifle. The people were able force upon the people, once in twenty years, the neto incur such expenlses, and ther, was none thiat they cessity of votiig upon thlis qulestion, w hen they de would more ~~~~~~~cheessily ay vthagupn thasq eti n whic he wudos would more cheerfully pay than that which would se rot ask it. Thle voice of the people, when they recure them a fullrepresentation. quire a revision of the organic law can be heard Mr. RANNEY said the more he thought upon the through their representatives, and there is I10 danger subject, the more he was satisfied that the number is that it will be unheard. tiot too large. One reason for preferring the larger Mr. RANNEY said he had found this provision in number would be, that it would be less in danger of be- the Constitution of several of the States iii the Union, iog affected by undue ani improper influences from and particularly in that of New York. It has its o0'without. It is easier to affect by these influences the gill in ti theory that there should be some power ili individual members composing the whole of a small the people themselves, to originate amendments to the body than a large one; by the same rule that it is easi- Constitution-sciae power other titan that which er to control onie man thian it is two. Unider the ap speaksby the General Assembly. Under the provisportioninelat shlesme now in convention there cannot ions of the first and second section, the origin of all be, ia such a convention much over one hundred and amendments depends upon the Legislature. Here, 429 430 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —WEDNIUSDAY, JANUtARY 29. the appeal is directly to the people themselves. Here, year. Then require that it should receive, before it however the provision is, much less stringent than in is submitted to the people, the votes of a majority of other Constitutions. A majority of all the votes cast the members of each branch of the General Assem at the election, is required. If the people do not need bly, chosen with especial reference to this question. a revision of their organic law, all they have to do is Then not to vote for it. To refrain from voting is to vote in Mr. RANNEY wanted to know what bill, report or the negative. The process involves no trouble, and proposition, the gentleman from Montgomery, [Mr not a cent of expense. In several States it is differ HoLT,] was attempting to describe. If his description ent. A majorit y of those voting upon the question, is was intended forthe report of the committee, he could sufficient. not have read it. We are engaged in the creation of a government Mr. HOLT said he was describing his own plan. which is not only for ourselves, but which weproudly He proceeded to say: Then,after having received say, is to be handed down to our posterity to be a rule the votes of a majority of each branch at two sepa of action for them. Yet posterity have no hand in rate sessions of the General Assembly, one of them making this government. They are not parties to the elected with reference to the question, it may be sub compact. They give no assent to its provisions. Is mitted to the people. it not justice then to declare that when we deliver it Mr. LARSH was in favor of striking out this see into their hands, they shall have the privilege to say, tion; for the reason that the committee had already whether or not, they will be bound by it?-whether agreed to adopt two modes of amending the new con they will have it or not? We calculate that a gene- stitution. It seemed to him that two modes of opera ration of men passes away about once in twenty years, tion for arriving at the same result were sufficient. He and this therefore is the period that has been fixed sawnousein addng a thirdmode upon, for the laws of one to pass into the hands of another. I see no objections to such a provision. It proposed three dI is right in theory, and if it is right in theory, it will ferent plans of amendment First, by the General AssembySeodyupnapooiinocalaon work no wrong in practice. It certainly cannot be Assembly: Secondly, upon a proposition to call a con false to say that each generation is the best judge of vention by the General Assembly: Thirdly, requirig what institutions are best fitted for its condition? and the people to vote upon the propriety of calling a coi ifit is true, it moust be also true that no wrongis done ventiol every twenty years. He thought this was a either to them or to us, to place it in their power to very poor comimentary upon our labors here: that, give their assent or dissent to those that exist, and if after spending so much time and money, aud iber necessary, to take the earliest, easiest anrd most feasi- and brains, to provide anew Constitution, a stan;ding ble means, to adapt theirinstitutions to their peculiar committee of this body should report three or four co,ndition and circumstances. pains for dispensing with the whole of it. It was a Mr. HOLT thought the Convention should take into great pity that this report had not been presenited dur consideration, in the same connection, section third inmg the first or second week of the session: for it and section first, in order to come at a correct view of seemed to him that if we could have adopted this rethe whole subject. If the first section remains as it port, which might have been done in two or three days, is, this one seems absolutely necessary. He believed it would have been all that was needed. And perhaps the Convetion should reconsider the vote taken upon it might be all the better to adopt the report as it is; the amendment of the gentleman from Miami, [Mr. since, as suggested by the gentlema fro Mngome DORSEY,] and he hoped, at any rate, that members y, (Mr. oarc, the sober, second thouglt of thereo. would consider well before they decided up,n its final pe might ilithie th t w the whole thing rejection. rejection. fBut he did not think that way. It seemed to him that But to consider the third section by itself. Similar the second section of this report was suffiient for Kil provisions are contained in the constitutions of Penn- practical purposes. sylvania and New York. He would be satisfied with Mr. TAYLOR dissented from what seemed to be it —he first section remaining as it is; but if this is the idea of gentlemenii who had preceded him, to wit stricken out, an amendment of the other will become that facilities for the discussion of those principles imperative. which lie at the foundation of government,ought not to Under the provisions of this article, except at the be increased. He affirmed his belief that the discusregular period of twenty years, no amendment can be sions which had led to the assembling of this body, and mnade to the constitution, unless two-thirds of each the discussions which had attended their deliberations, branch of the Legislature can be procured to vote for were in every respect desirable and advantageous lo it, it cannot be submitted to a vote of the people. the people of the state, and that the benefits of sone That, it may be difficult to procure. It may not be discussion of the principles of the organic law, aid easv to put a pressure upon a legislative body, suffi- of the agitations attendant upon their discussion, should cient to produce so extraordinary a degree of unan- be given and secured to every generation. He believed imity. And if an amendment is attempted witliout that the politics of Ohio would attain a far higher the intervention of the Legislature, it will require a grade in consequence of the (iseussions of this body, vote of three-fifths of each branch, before it can be than they would have attained by avoiding these agitasubmitted to the people. tions. Whether our action here had been a tissue of Now, the gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] folly, oir not, hlie was willing to bear hisshare of the asclaims to be a good deal of a democrat. I admit that persion which had been cast upon the convention, for he is so; and that on most occasions it is pretty diffi- the sake of the benefits to be derived by all the people, cult to get ahead of him in democracy; but I think I from this moving of the political waters. He contendshall be able to cut under hima a little this tine. As ed that it was well that the people should be thus inI would propose to have the report amended, if a vited, irrespective of the movements of political parchange tothe constittition is proposed in the Legisla- ties, to ask themselves deliberately, whether the conture, I would require, first, that it should be sustain stitution, as adintnistered by their agents, is Onie, which ed by a majority in each branch. What then? Let they approve. He believed that such an appeal to the it be continued to the next term, whose members are people, once in twenty years, would have a salutary to be chosen after the session at which it was first act- efiect upon their public character. He was not fearful ed upon. It would therefore go over to the second of giving too many facilities for the amendment of the OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-I EDNESDAY, J$NUARY 29. constitution. He was anxious that the details of those important fundamiental principles, as mauilested to the world ili our writtenl constitution should sometimnes become the subject of grave consideration by the people at lorge, as a matter of public duty, irrespective of the cabals at Columbus. Ile was not one of those who believed that we were legislating here, and laying down principles to govern the people of half a century. He entertained no such vanity its that. He was willing to surrender to a future majority. ie would be willing to surrender the instrun-enl at the end of twenity years. He believed that, wheln the generation of 1875 should coirie to tie Quil responsibility of their citizenship, our iiistituioins would be as far behind theirs, as those were behind us, which we find by revertinig a hui.dred years into the past. He believed that the ultinia thule of political science was not yet attained. Hie considered teat menl were still in their iniancy. It was prosumrptioni to place limits and boundaries to the progress of tile Atriericain people. He would say then, give these opportunities for revision —for sweet injg away tile errors of the past, to the people in their sovereign capacity. I'he opportunilies coulId sot come too oiten. Once in a generation certainly was not too often. Mr. RANNEY would not have said anything more upo n tis report, but for t he r ema rks of th e gen tle. man froIl Gailha, (Mr. NASH.) That gentleman desires to dispense with the first and third sections of the report, and hold on to the sec ond. This w as t he old method of getting a Conveitioni, by t ib e con curr ence of two- thirds of both branches of the General Asse-mbly. It needed not, that that gentleman should tell me, (conitinued Mr. R.) that he was opposed to everything tlat had marked upon it the least particle of progress. He was made lor that sort of opposition. He was made up upon that principle. He would have miiade a first rate menber of Parliament for the times of James the First. For, being admonished that lie should not meddle with matters of State, he would be a very obedient mall. Jarmes could have admonished him asmnuch as he p)leased, anld he never would have had any trouble wittl him. Mr. N ASI, (in his seat.) You ought to be called to order. Mr. RANNEY, Thie gentleman says, I ought to be called to order; and I do not know but what 1 am out of order; bu, certainly, lIam no more out of order, thani the gentleman himself, who was allowed to get through. Mr. SAWYER, (in his seat.) Order is out of fashion. Mr. RANNEY. The Committee in this report, have not assumed for themselves, nor for this body, all the wisdom in the world; nor for this generation any mnore wisdom than those that will succeed them. We have proceeded uponl the principle, that a free Governnmenlt rests upon tile consent of the people; aind.that the people, whenever they see proper to change or modify the organic law, it is competent for them to do so. We have proceeded upon the principle, that it is just, and right, and politic, for the men of succeeding generationlsto alter or amend the institutionls whilch shall comne down to them, just as t~hey may see fit. *his is a right which they have; and adl we hlave to do, is to furnish them with peaceful and appropriate means and methods of arriving at that end —which is simply an expression of the people upon the question, whlethe~r the inlstitutions which they have inh~erited, are agreeable to them or not. If I were under tile apprehension which seems to actuate the gentlemanl itom Gallia, that he can frame a Constitution so,much better than anything thi o l wu b that could be produced for the next half century, then, I suppose,, I should be in favor of a provisioH v that this Constitution should lyot be t ouched for that length of time. But I do not know whether this Constitution will las t one year, or twenty years, o r y ar, fifty. Whenever the people, or we ourselves, shall see fi t to change this organic law, I will be the last man to cont end against the power, or the right, so to do. It wi ll last as long as the people choose,oand, I hope, no longer. I do not say, in one breath, that all free gover nmen ts rest upon the con sent of the governed; and in the next breath, declare th at that very consent shall not find a way to be expressed. The consent which the gentleman frouo t Gallia, would acord, would allow the poople, once in half a century, (by c onsent of two thirds of the Legislative body,) to look at o ur sacred w ork with a soleieun f a ce, an d a sk themselves, wheth er they wereof the same o pinion. with its auth ors. The ge ctlenian seems to be determgin ed that n o body s ha ll venture to suggest that this constitution has any defects, so long as ite keeps above ground..For my part, I must confess, that I ams sensible of my o wn frai ltie s, I f ind that I can sca rcely d o anything which will satisfy my own mind for a ny great length of t ime. But wh enever I am dissatisfied with anything I have done, I wi ll get it right as soon as I can. No mal can draw arouand the affai rs of the State so much reverence, as to keep me from the effort to make our political institutions conform to the wishes of the people. Believing in the doctrine,that free government rests upon thse voluntary consent of the governed, I hold tioat it is the duty of every man, in framing t he o rgan ic law, towleave it so open to clhange, that it never ca ti b ecome anything else th ththe Ire e, voluntary coiex n it of the people. There has not been a Constit ution f or med, in the Uni ted States, for the last teit years, but what contains, substantially, the first section o f th is artic le. In this way, the people hav e preferred a mor e dire ct way of getting at the Cons titution, thaw by means of a Constitutional Convention. The Constitution of the State of Neow York contains one of these sections substantially. But the last, as I look uponi i t, ismore im p ortant tipan ei hether of the others.'or whilst the first method adm its of only slight a endments, which can be applied wuith faciity; anid wnhilst t he second meth od would never be resorted to, e xcept in a great public emergency-(both requiring the intervention of the General Assembly,)-the triirdmethod is the spontaneous action of the people themselves. It doe& rnot appe al to this or that cabal of interested politicrans. It makes it the duty of the voters themselves to come up to the polls, and declare whether they will, or wall not, have a Convention. It is a periodical return of the mind of the citizens, to a special, deliberate, public examination of the organic law of the State. Mr. GREEN of Ross. It strikes me that this third seetion is a proposition of extraordinary character. The gentlemnan from Trumbull, says it provides fbr a spontaneous expression of the public opinion. I think it is rather providing, or one of those premeditated ex, temporaneons effusions which we sometimes hear of -aspontaneous expression of the public opinion required and commanded expressly in the Constitution of the State, twenty years iu1 ad vancve! I had supposer[, Mr. Chairmnan, that this was an age of progress. But; the idea must be a fallacy, if the people cannlot tell whether they want a change in the I-undaXmenltal lawv, without a conlstitutionlal provisions —a constitutional obligation, imaposed upon then periodically, to say whether they are satisfied or not. i~seemsl to lme truly extraordinsary that this Report should comne from a commnittee, the chairman of which (Mr. RANNgx,) has, upon all occasions, voted against; I I I I 431 432 OHIlO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEPNESDAY, JANUARY 29. leaving aiything to be done by those who are to come after u; vwho has been always unwilling to trust the Legislature, even with the power to grant the poor privilege of the right of succession to a church corpo ration, bv special act; who would not agree that the citizens of the State, or of any town, counlty or city thereof, houtld Ibe permitted to tax themselves for the purpose of niakilig public improvements. /dr. RANNEY, (il his seat.) I would not permit a majority to tax a minority. Mr. GREEN of Ross. I affirm that the gentleman is notwilling generally to leave the Legislature free to exer(ise its alppropriate powers and fui.ciois, yet, passing strange as it is, lie has provided in the first section, (for I take it, that he is the father of tile report,) that the General Assemnlly may uponi a vote of three fifths propose ali amendment to the constitution; anti inl the second section that three fifths of each branch of thet Legislature isay submit the question of c;)liiig 1 co nvention; and( i,i the third section, the peoeile, whelbher they are satisfi, d or otherwise, whether they wish to do so or not, shall be compelled to comre up to tihe polls every twenty years, and vote on tile question. Now the gexit~leman says thatn y friend from Gallia. here, (Mr. NASH,) would have made a good member of Parliametit,iii the timries of JamDes the fitst,for he would most wiltiiuly hive registered the edicts of the crov n. Ite would slot have made a good rmemnber of the Rump Parliamrent; he wou,ld not have been kept long enough in his seat. [Ilauglhter.] I do not know but tie ch,I-aracteristic of keepilig our seats attaches pretty well to the rest of us, for we have now been sitting over a huniidred days, and are still unable to see the endi of our labors. We havesat lolu enough to entitle t-iis bogy to thatt significant appellation, this I douot if we agree u pon, the "sell-deiyiiig ordinance," [laughlter continued.] We have at least demonstrated this one thing, that we can sit and talk. But layiii,all jesting aside, it does seem to me. that this is a itiost unniecessary provision to say the least of it. Why would you provide, that, once within the cycle of twenty years, these grave questions sthall be agitated. I nlavy be, and I suppose will be, accounted behind the age; but in early life, I learned that it was easier to pull down, thani to build up; therefore I am disposed to be satisfied with our institutions as long as they are endurable. I am hot disposed to change ir m these matters, unless a change is imperiously demanded. I am apt to think it, are afraid to trust the people. You say to the people; you are very happy, conetes eted aid pro spe rous; but you are great fools; for there are great many oth er things yh a m[ight harvd e, th at you do not no w dream of, if you would call a new convention and make another constitution. For my part I do not expect to be alive when this great era of reform shall coik e but if I should be, my most earnest prayer would be, "defend me from such r efo rmers as those o f 1851." Mr. SAWYER. I cannot very well understand the argument of the gentleman from Ross. He told us, when he got about half through with his remarks, that he had been joki ng; a nd then he see med to keep on joking. One of his joke s is th is: he thoughl t, from what he could gather of the results of our (fdelibera - tions here, that th e people would be t ired of Corven tions, and would not wat ant anoth er very so on. But ie got to jokin g on the other side directly; and seemed to ictimneat e very stronogly, that we were going to pass one of the most formidable constitutions upon t ecord-so acceptable, tha t the people will not desire to change i t for th e next half c entiury. The same a gentleman, " i e some time ago, was.jokin i n favor of an ual sessions of the legislature; and then he state d it was necessary for the legisla ture to mtheet annually, i n or der to keep things straight which iMGiohlt be done without consideraton, by the prece ding legislature. The?n he seemed to have but little confideIlce in the legislature; and now he seems to pla ce the most inmplicit confiden ce in this Cojvention.-So it is, he jokes upon both sides. My opinion is, that we wvill get a pretty good Con stittll ion; altliotigh- there are some unfavorable inidications. But it Flay be, we shall get the repeal priinciple yet. A VOICE. And hard monev too? Mr. SAWYER. I cannot answer as to what will be the result of the hai-d money quiestion-. I }ave nlearly given up all hope of that.. But I have conlfidenice in thle intelligence of this Coiivemotion, and it rmay be, that they will not obiect to submitting an open clause, and let the people decide that question. If the last section should not be adopted, I shall move to strike out from the second section, them words "twNo thirds," and insert in lieu thereof, the words "a majority." I shiall ask this, in vie,w of the difficulty which we have had in the legislat', re for the las-t twenlty years, about the matter of calling this Convenltion: and when the vote came at last to be taken, under the sanction of the constitutional majority of the legislature, there w as found to be a majority of 50,000 freemen of Ohio, in favor of it. T'he gentleman fromy Ross, closed his remarks by praying to be delivered fromn such a set of reformers as we are. I believe, sir, that that was a sincere pr-ayer; and I believe also, that his praver will become milore and mriore earnest and sincere, a.s we advance in our work here. Mr. HUMilPHREVILLE. I desire to add one word to the historical account of tlh( call of this Convenition, given b)y the gentleman from Auoglaize. He told us, that when the vote of the people came to be taken u onl the question of the call of a conlvention, there .was a mnajority of fifty thousand in favor of it- but I am not qu ite certain that they understood what sort of a conlvenltion they were to have. Bult nowT, with howv much labor w5as it that the legislature was indtuced to pass a law authorizing the people to take that vote. If i re collect aright, propositions have been made for that object successively, for several years; past- and when the last proposition was lost in the Senate, and the project was about to It strikes me that the experiment, which we are now making, if the instrument we should adopt, should be approved, will bring this truth home so forcibly and strongly to the people, that this convention will be enough for them for the next fifty years. I am appreliensive that we shall give them so much clange, that theey will be entirely satisfied. I cannot see why all this effort should be made to invite cRanEige-as t houghi the spirit of progress wcs ywot fast enoughl of itself, but needed a constitutional Drovision to whip it up behind. I am w~illing that tile con6titutioni shou2ld stand, until the people, ot their own mrrotiole, should seek to change it. I do not want to have any of these "lpremeditated spontaneous expressions" of public opinion, every twenty years. Mr. RANNEY, (in his seat.) WVould you not amend the constitution, whenever desired by the will of a mdajority? Mr. G REEN No, sir. Mr. RANNEY. Why not? Mr. GREEN. Why,sir, you have yourself provided in your second section just what we want, but you -" Retter to bear the ills we b ave, Than fl) to others which we h-now not of." OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEFNESDiY, JANUARY 29. was passed in the Senate, arid defeated in the House It is also a fact, that one or both of these bills were reconsidered in the House, and both defeated upon their reconsideration by Whig vote*. It is a fact, also, that after this a member of the Senate, (perhaps from Muskingum,) intioducd ill that body a joint resolution, permitting a vote upon the question of a call for a Conventionl, and that piroposiltion was passed, after similar propositions had beeii three tinies defeated during the samne session, and after a select committee had reported in its favor, except two Whigs, who made a minority report against it. It was then that the Senator firom Ashtabula made an arrangement such as has been stated. That if the Whigs, who had three times voted down this call, did not come up and vote these resolutions through, he would give his vote for a certain amendment of the Apportionment Bill.'I'o prevent this, the Whigs did come up and vote for the re.solutions, every man of themn, in the House, with the exception of those two who signed the minority report. All the rest voted for the resolutions. The reason they all had to do so was, that many members had gonle home, and there were but just Whigs enough, besides those two, to make out the constitutional majority of two-thirds. I happen to know that our whig friends there, were not so wonderfully elevated in their notions of morality, that they could not do such a piece of trading that. Mr. NASH. After this bargain was made, how came it, that the Senator from Ashtabula did vote for that repeal. Mr. TOWNSHEND. He did not. The law was not repealed till the winter after. Mr. GREEN, of Ross. I have no doubt the gentleman fromn Lorain is well versed in all the bargains and trading which were going oln in that LGeneral As. sembly. Mr. TOWNSHEND. To be sure I am. Mr. GREEN. I have no question about that. But I want to inquire whether the gentleman means to ima. plicate the Senator from Muskingum in ally way, in this trading? I Mr. TOWNSH END. I believe all I said of the Senator from Muiskiingum was, that lie offered the resolutions which were finally carried, as I have stated, after similar propositions had been th~ree times voted down-the whigs, at last, voting for them in virtue of th e ulnderstanding, or bargain,gf which I have spoken. Th e vote for this call was carried in th e Senat e without any difficulty-one-half of that body b eing d em ocrats, andu the other h alf whigs and free sloilers. I do nSot know that any particular Senator was induced to vote for the Convention resolutions on account of this arrangemrient; but I do know that after such an understanding was had, the whigs in the House took hold of the matter, and moved it straight through. I think, myself, that there is something in the argument of the gentleman from M dina, (Mr. HumPIREVILLE.) It was with great difficulty, the people could get this call of a Cotiveiitioo; and they would not have got it at that time, had it ntot been for the conditionl of things, which mlade it possible to compel the whligs into it by a little trading. M~r. COLLINGS explained the object hue had in view in offering the penlding amzendmenelt, by way ofS perfecting-the section proposed to be strickzen out. H1e did not himself attach much imnportance to this section;~ but, perhaps, with the view taken by thle gentleman from G~enega, it wouldl be as well to retain it. He would much rather retain thlis third section, than submit to the reduction of the Legislalive majority, suggested by the gentleman from A uglaize, [Mr. SAWrEa,] fail, a certain Senator who was anxious that the convention should be called, told his fellow Senators, that unless tihey c )i:sened to the passage of these resolutions, to c all a colvent ion to aoend the constit ution, he would vote f,r the repeal of the law dividing Hamilton counEty, f)r by his vote, the law could have been ree aled; and t hereupon, a motion was made by the Senator fronm vs tokitheue, to reconsider the vote by which the re wolutions were lost; and they wer e reconsid ered; an d, accordi ngly, the resolutions p assed the Senoiate bv a f orced v ote. Mr. GREEN of Ross. The question of a call of the convention, wonas k lost ir revocably in the Senate, and a new propositioi wts introduced by the Senator from Muskitgum. I have beh,i acquainted wi th that gentleman for the lanst fiftee n years, an d I know that the call of a colnventions wah ho)nl been a favorite measure with him, and hie never reistred until he got it through. But I s tate fixgedain, tnhat the original resolution for the call of a conventtionn had failed, and was supposed to be buried beyond hope of a resurrection, whe n th e g e ntleman fron t.tskiwg u l offered an or iginal proposition, whclh finally carried. Whatever by-play may have beeii n en act ed amongst other Senators, I know noot. But I know the gentleman from Muskingum well; and I state here in Ceny place, that I feel fully authoriz ed to say, tifhet he occupies a position too ele. vated,for any suspicion of utnmanly tampering to gain votes, to resl, upon Iimirl.-: Mr. HUi PlIREVILLE. I nay be wrong in the st atement, tl I ltt the proposition was passed upon the success of a mo,iorln to reconsider. It may have been an independenllt pooitioponito which succeeded; but it wa s forc ed through, tnd er tle t ihreat of the Seiator to whom I have referred, to vote for the repeal of the law dividing Hamilton county. I had not imter,Ided, by anky remark o f mine, to ascribe any iroper loives to the i Sena tor from M u skingum. I (1.) nlt nlaow who w here influenic e d by the motive s to which I have referred; but iI do know that the originatl proposition -wEas lost. I know not th at the Senator flroin Mu -ki;.igumn voted against the first proposition. Alr. C0HAMBERS, (in his seat.) No, no! Mr. HUMiPHI-i'R,VILLE. I am- glad to be setright. I know that the new proposition was passed under the threat eo wahicr I have referred. I do not know that there +-vas ally ballga, iniing or agreemenit about the matter. Bult, if I have been correctly informed, that Senator had his m'inid so entirely fixed upon the necessity of cert aini anmenidmijenits to the old Constitution, that lie was induced to make the declaration he did; and I respect anid hif)ijir himir for it. I would, myself, have done the sa11le, it' I had believed that the proposition -was wit hhield firom the deimanld of so large a majority of the people. Well, this shows something of the difficulty of demanding the call of a Constitutional Convention, over a majority of two-thirds of the members of the Legislature. With reference to thle third section, now proposed to be stricken out, I would rather part with either of the other sections than this. It is precisely what we want, and it will (lo Ioe harm, if it can do no good. Mr. TlOWNFSHEND. I dov not knots that the committee is ver It')'l aus iterested in the events by which a call for this Conycu~lleno wvas allowedl by the General Assembly. Bult, Ks I happen to be rather familiar with the ma~tter, I will just, take the opportunity to say, that theC gentlLemXan freom Medina (Mr. HIUI!PHR1EVILLE,) is pretty nea-r right inl thle whole of his st~atement. It is ta fie;,h that a bill for this purpose w;has originated {and defeated in the Houlse. It is a fact, that a similar bill wvas introduced into the Senate — 433 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, JANUARY 30. Mr. DORSEY moved to perfect the section pr(roposed to be stricken out, by striking out the words "itybrea fifths," and inserting in lieu thereof, the words, "a majority." Mr. RMANON demanded a division. The question being on striking out the words'ethr e e fifth s, " i t was disagreed to. Mr. FA RR moved to fa rther p erfect the words pAoposed to be stricken out, by striking o ut a ll after l lhe wor d "by," in the se con d line, and inserting in ltt thereof, the following: "A majority of all the membe rs elected by eceHouse; such proposed amendment or amnendments sha tl be entered on the journals with the yeas and nays tam ken thereon, and the s ame shall st and over u nt il the e next session of the Genera l Assembl y next afterw ards chosen, and if such proposed amendments shall b., agreed to by a majority of the miermbers elected to eatch House at the session last aforesaid, the Secretary of State shall cause them to be published in one or more newspapers in every county, in which a news aper shall be published, at least three months after bein ig so agreed to by the two Houses, as the General A>sembly shall prescribe; and if the electors shall aIprove and ratify such amendment or amendments 1by a majority of all the votes cast at such election, sueiA amendment or amendments shall become a part (;f the Constitution, but no amendment or amendments shall be submitted to the people oftener than once in five years; and if more than one amendment be submitted, they shall be submitted in such manner and form, that the people may vote for or against such amendments separately and distinctly." A division being demanded, The question then being first on striking out all after the word "by" in tne second line of the first section, it was disagreed to. The question then being oil striking out section one it was disagreed to. Mr. SI'ANBERY moved to further amend the report by striking out all preceding the word "but" in the 7ih line of section 3. Mr. RANNEY moved to perfect the words to be stricken by striking out the words "for Representatives," which was agreed to. The question then being on striking out all preceding the word'but" in the 7th line of section 3, Mr. LARWlLL moved to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out by striking out the word "sev. nty" and insert in lieu thereof the word "sixty;"pending which, Ol motion of Mr. GREEN, of Ross, the convenrtion adjourned. The question being now taken upon Mr. COLLINGS motion to amnend the section proposed to be stricken out, by striking out to the word "but" in the 7th line. i,T'he amrendmenet was rejected. Whereupon Mr. CHAMlBERS obtained leave to withdraw his motion to strike out the third section. On motion by Mr. LI DEY, the Committee now rose, and the CHAIRMAN reported the bill to the Conven tion, witlh one amendment. The question being on agreeing to the amendment of the corimmittee on the whole, to-wit: In section 2, line seven, strike out the words "in the General Assemhblv," and insert in lieu thereof the words "in the House of Representatives." Mr. RIDDLE demanded a division. The question then being on striking out the words "in the General Assembly"c Mr. FORBES demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted, yeas 50, nays 41, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Dorsey, Ewing, Gillett, Graham, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Johnson, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mason, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Sawyer, Scott of Harri son, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shel by, Townshend, Warren, and Williams,-50. NAYs — Messrs. Blair, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Ewart, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hootman, Hunt, Jones, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Mitchell, Motris, Norris, Patterson, Quigley, Rannev;Riddle, Scott of Anglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Thonmpson of Stark, Woodbury, and President-41. So the motion to strike out was agreed to. The question then being on inserting the words "members in the House of Representatives," it was agreed to. Mr. MANON moved to further amend the Report by striking out section 2. On which motion the same gentleman demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted, yeas 11, navys 81, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Blickens derfer, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Dorsey, Ewart, Green of Ross, Larsh, Manon, McCormick, and Nash-11. NAYS —Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Curry, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humphlireville, 1Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Sta nton, Stebbins, Stiuwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Warren, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, and Presiden-81. So the motion to strike out section 2 was disagreed to. Mr. ikARSo moved to further amend the Report bp striking out section 1. ONE HUNDRED AND FIRST DAY. THURSDAY, Jani. 30, 1851. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Conveution met, pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by Rev. Dr. AiYDELOTT. Mr. CAfILL moved a call ofthe convention, which being ordered; Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Cutler, Ewart, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hootman, Lawrence, Leadbetter, Mason, McCloud Perkins, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Smith of Wyandot Stickney, Taylor, Way and Williams were found ab. sent. Oil motion of Mr. BENNETT, all further proceedings under the call were dispensed with. Mr. STILWELL presented a petition from Mathew McNeal and forty others, citizens of Muskingum county, praying that a clause- be inserted in the new constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing I I 434 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- THURsDAY, JANUARY 30. aniy law legalizing traffic in spiritous liquors, which on and dicker" transactions that took place in the t'en motion was laid on the table.*, eral Assaembly during the sesioti of 18489. I was Mr. MITCHELL presented a petition from Nancy told that lie: said last evening, though I did not Colli.ngs and forty-two other females of Knox county hear his remarks, that these trailsactions liad broughft cap the same subject, which was laid oil the table. disgrace upon the Legislature of the State. On these Mr. WORTHINGTON presented sundry petitions nmatters, I have a word or two to say. from John Steel, W. G. Williams, and fifty-eight oth Mr. President; I do not believe, that the bad odor ers,.citizens of RosFs county, on the same subjeet, which into which the gentleman says our General Assembly on motioni, was laid oi the table. has fallei,is attributable to any arrangements that were Mr. CHANEY presented sundry petitions from John ever made for the election of officers. But, sir, I do Giles, Maria Mayer and eighty-two other males and believe, that the disgrace of which he speaks, is justly femnales of Fairfield and Franklin counties, which on attributable to the acts of the previous session, when motion were lai(i on the table. the party'of which that gentleman is a member, under Mr. RANNEY from- the comnmitte on revision, en- took, in an uncanstitutional maniler, to divide Hamil rollnient and arrangement, submitted the following, tont counity, for a corrupt party purpose, thus sacrifi which was agreed to: citig not only the holiior, but endantigering the peace of Resolved, That the committee on Revison, be and they are the State. hereby authorised, to direct such printing to be done as they I am not at all troubled by any thing that gentleman isay deem necessa:y for the performance of their duties. ca sy about "bargain and sale." In iyopiol cani say about IIbargain and sale." tIn y opinion, On motion of Mr. BENNETT, the Convention took there was nothing dishonorable in any of those arrange up the report of the Stan(ling Committee on Future ments, by which the elections were secured. My Amendments of the Conustitution. -moral perceptions may not be so acate as that gentle' The third section of said report being under con- manl's, for, as I did nothing for private gain, or that in sideration, uponl the motion of Mr. STANBERY to strike volved the sacrifice of principle, I have nothing to re out all of salid section to the word "'but," inclusive, gret. How is it, with the gentleman from Geauga? in the seventh line. He professes to think all such arratingments verv wick The question was upon the mnotion of Mr. LARWILL ed and corrupt, yet, I recollect that, during the session to strike out the word "seventy," in the second line, refered to, there was no small effort made, to elect that and insert the word "sixty." gentleman's own son, to the United States Senate, by Mr. LARWILL said hlie made the motion from a this same "truck and dicker." I do not say, sir, thet conviction that it was right. He thought the people the gentleman from Geauga, knew or approved of this, elf the State would ask amendments to the constitu- nor do I say his son —now a member of thisconvention tion before it could be done under the first section, or from Cuyahoga-knew or approved of what was doing iu(der the third section as it now stands. He thought in his behalf; but I suspect, that if the fanily of the the people ought to have an opportunity to vote upon gentleman from Gaauga, had profited more by these tie question, whether the constitution should be bargains, he would have felt less objectionl to them amended, once ill ten years, at least. He was aware Why, sir, how comes that gentleman to be a memnl,er that the people would not be satisfied with some o: of this convention? Was he elected by wlig votes? the features of this constitution, and that the demo- No, sir, strange as it may seem, he was elected to li$ cratic party would call aloud for aimendments before seat in this body, by precisely the same kind of "truck a long time. He was sure thlat such reforms woulni and dicker," that he condemns. Surely, lie is, of all not be secured, in the currency question especially, mnen, the last that should undertake to administera reabut that the cry for reform would soon be heard for buke to another. further and more radical changes. Mr. HOLT, wished this Constitution to last just a Mr. CHAMBER'S hoped the atmiendment would not long as it answered the purpose, and no longer. He prevail. He thought the first and second section, had now, il consequence of the vote upoii the amnudalone made amrnple provisions for that purpose. He nietit to the first section, become anxio,s to have the desired, if possible, to prevent the business of change amendment of the gentleman from Waylie, (Mr. LA&being made too easy. He wanted the constitution we WILL,) prevail. SuDpose we fail to put into this conare making so perfect, that it will not want alteration stitutioni some very inmportant provisions. The interin twenty years. Under the present constitution it had ests of individuals might be such as to prevent so large not been too difficult. There was, in fact, no public a part as three-fifths of the Legislature fro'n votilng demand for the present revision. He was opposed, for it. It was true perhaps, that in some very great above all, to that constant disposition to change, that emergency, it might be done; but hlie did not want evils had become so maniifest in the States of New York to accumulate until one of those great emergencies and Virginia, where every ten or fifteen years a Con- shall occur. Kentucky had adopted a provision simivention is to be called, and the whole organic law of lar i effect to this Indiana, Ilr earliest consttu lar in efbect to this. Indiana, In her earliesit const.tthe State is to Ie re-organized. lion had submitted!he question to a majority of the Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, thought that there people once in twelve years. In Iowa, it Missouri, in was no danger in the section, as it now stands. With New York, the facilities for a revision of the Constithe'amendment of the gentlemaii fromn Waynle, it would tution had in various ways been made easier. We have place the question before the people oftener than ne- cast off the shackles of the past, when it was deemed cessary. He saw no danger ii allowing the people, unsafe to submit such questions to the people. He if they choose, to vote upon the question once in had rather the periods occur once in five years than twenty years. He denied the charge tha t had beent made, that the whig party had prevented a call of a will not vote for it. There is no earihly dancer of, C~onvent~ion t wras given thehyear l~l9 9or 182thata such a thing. He was anxious though, he might have oppotunty ws gven o te popleto ote ponthebeen wrong, to have it fixed so that a majority of two' question, and the majority against it was four or five sessions of the Legislature,could have settled an amend to one. He hoped the amendment of the gentleman melt so as to place it before the people from Wayne, [Mr. LARWIL.L,] would not prevail. M.MSI ed sfra ele bevdt~ Mr. TOVW NSHENDL said, that the gentleman from Comnmittee had hit upon about the droper.medium ieGeauga, [Mr. HITcacocit,] has alluded tto me in con- tween too great difficulty' and toogreat facility in makneetien with what he is pleased to style certain "truck t ins amendments to tie Constitution. tie should there 29 435 OHIO:O0NVENTION'- UDEBiT-TfS'AY, JANtUARY 30:. rioa..He h,ped the citizens of Ohio would determine, that instead of attemptilg a remedy t O the evils of iniy Mtem.perente so vidoelent inr its charater, and ait the sagre time 8o0 uneeastaing a ns to gits r esult, w ould lea the wrongs cmp laiiied of to be tegeilate d'bythe d ort sene of the;people. T-e rigrht to s!l liquors is on inhere,nt right. If i Wt iswrong let it be punished by aIt d' o ther t rimes; ift it is~ right why restrit it bn g ictenf, laws. There is no more reaion why this ar.icloe f trad te shall be tdged roundi t wit arestrictionse tiehu anav other. Mr. McCORMICK esaid he did not to o k rupon' he aqienidmentit of the gentlema n from TAdatsi, mr. Cots aLNGg o),as; mtaking any chapnge in the question.!%a Lemtnislature shall not grar-t ticerses, and of course'the" Legislature shall have no power to altlow otlhe rs tar o' grant lienses da-r Tiat wl}ihh-i st icaahnht do- tf itse lf its a not do by the hands of others. Qui jitcitoper alibo l -facit per se, iwsd a dotri ie as well appl icaloe to legslatin as to law. What the e gislatu re ruthrizes, if does. - To say thaat it tal notd, is to say that it shald nev u-. thorizee. He thought therefore the amnend ent Oft"' not needed, an hoped it would lnot be a donpted. m Mr. STANBERY. I feel great doubti Mr.'Presi :dent, how'to voteupon this report-very serious doubt:S', whe ther it will accomp lish any g ood-very treat feaor, '?that. OLIyGre in pasitive evil. Tht pdropos ition s t:hat the stsrom o stflbensg the sale of s pi a rits is:epo bet, abolished. But what is this s's-temi It is'iu-if:eL':::" systemn of restraint-a Bsystelm of gen~,ral prohibitioni and partial'sale! under the regUlation of law.' N"06" can now re,tail ardent spiriL —ntitlout-a lieenie; to~.be granted by Your courts, or muiiciopal autilorities,'Te report proposes to take away tfi,is power of regulaiOi / .a,d restraint-and leave I traffi opeh tO all.- it takes away al:-loCal supervi}dn. t'abSafi'olli': whatever restraint.is n-ow impose,d. It Satys,"i: efe,;:: that no restraint is better than' partial restraiit.-ahid that you take a step towards the:cure of this eviO b'a.: universal icen se vto an v one that may be dispbsed":to'enJ - gage in the business.,' ilain hardly: satisfied that it is proper to make thiiexj"': peri:nent.' I adlit't'the-ev)i 1 enionrous even,utdi: the lipense svste-m-buit I cannot see that it will,noiabe worse wifihout that sy-Ve&. e. t ieimer sayB thatat' i-. cenise is a legal sanction-that it dignifies and gives' re-j spectability to the business of retailiig, and tha~ tie. friends of the temnperance reform. are constantly: met and confronted' with this legal sanction off the evil' which they ar, combatling. That isputting tlheat/r in a very plausible'light. If indeed the. vl onlyjexist-'e' -ed by'reason'of the licenlse-if the licens~ auttiorlzed' that which otherwise'would be unlawful, I could see; the force of the isbjeetion. Herea ter;When the.i!vnw; system is abolished, thebusiness'of -r'eilibg is tb~be' lawful businiess.- It is still to ha'v lhe'sanction or Iaw -_a universal sanction, in stead -of a partia and reg~ia, ted sanction.. h uiA the,t), sir, it is said under this free sy em,:th'e bUsiness wili lose-some of its respectabiity.No d.,uIt'~ of-,that. Uiid~,r a system of free comipetitoin-!wilhn. i resl':ratnt'no lo-.al superi!io n-is b usihes: ill, in J:i measure, fal inito hands to which itC wuld: nev~.rbe.^ entrustea evell under the worst admr inistation:f. iq *!icense. ystem."BdEt hom: ar.have._wei got: t0~ar~ -J.~ cbre of. the evi1 when this:change is:.'mnade?: Wejm'dst': -not forget the d upes. of our peoptle m}ost addicted to: this.' vice.: A~re we qulite sure we sba~l:do a good thi~ng or. -those dlupes, by remnoving all legal restrainit and super' i -visionl? For one, dI ha~ve.my seriouxs do.ubts as to:. -t:,,— and with'the. most earnest' de~iie; to. hmitigats' t~h': :great: evil, I e,a,in~t, blut hesitat..:ast-to this P,.poqp, t','jaI'ver~ mnuci fear\it -wi11 be. a St~;p in h was agreed.to,aid th committee rose article, -'n s far have we.o ~Mr. REEMEL.IN, hopedIh..' conyention: would nob without consideration-,.go o,n to adopt the ambigiou ne provisians ~of the.report.;~, 'Mr. COL~iNGS/moyved to amend the report, in the ~ixth line, by striking out the word'license," and in, sertin:un, iieu thereof, Ite,W,rds,?.a -thorize the diiene.gr. REt:LIN said he:.ha, d errpug objervvnsc to the adoption- of such an articl! as this in the constitu,f 4,3.6. OHIO''ONVENTIeN ~D'DBATE'S-TilURsDAY, JANUARY 30., .Mr., BATE said with all deference to his friend mrit's, and stand alone. l It is distinct.,in. the on froma Franklin, he thought' lhe.ha'd'en~tirely misa~ppre....train of evils,.both~public and private, that. surround hlinded tite object of these putttions. Tte friends,:of ant accompany it —fearfully distinct in the ravage$fl temlperatce,' so fa,r as he was acquainted with'their. sen-; commits i'tad in the track of ruino whichr markes:atheO timnnts, wished to (divest the tralfi~ in ardent spirits, of- progrress of intemperance, through the land. tIat, sanctiont which had been given to it" by laws re- Mr. BE.NETT said that when the gentlemnu fromi'., cogitizintg atnd authorizing it. Richland, (Mr. KiaKw eeD,)could show a tithe of the' .* ~fhey Wished to leave iL open —-t divest it'of e evil.resulting from theordinarytraffic of.te coutr, protection of special statutes —to strip from the dealers that attends the trade in ardent spirits, he would v'ote that imft unity which attacheis to the trade i' conse- for the amendment; but not till then. queace' of such protection, so that th.ey niay n,teet. itas. Mr. NAS- supposed he should differ from the:gena:i othetr moral questions are atet,- ad with the assistance t ieman from Richland, (Mr. Kiaswear,) upan the subu of aa enlighteted public opianion, 1to putit idown..ject f license.' What is the object of license sy,tmi Tthey.wished to create no monopoly —-becau'se they are and laws? In their original idea it was a duty or: well convinced, from l. ong exar'oen, thatso long as it laid Uponcallings'that: could be reached in',no oierh. is thua guarded, it will be,,iipregttable, ~ way. Thus auctioneers take out a license,p ann'.pay. '!:i tijerefere believe tha. t the cotmittee Ilas correctjy for it. It iS an exercise of the taxing power of;-o, understood the prayer of the petitioners, and that the State, and has nothing to' do with the moraVityorim-' isecuto'n reported by them is in accordance with their' morality of the trades, callings or practices perml:te,, wishe. -hese petitioners are very noamereus-aimut. in theselatte.or days, it' is said to be employe'ts le tweuity theUstaud-ver man'of them' faremen who galize acts and ocupationt that are iemora have scent years, i.'i endeavoring to.eradicate-the great is not the case,. It is a mere regulation for purpose eVil'0[ it.emperai.ce from our land'-they believe this of'revenue, aand nothing elseo. Fr what purpos:ili, tetep is necessary for seccess..Vill.you graut.it I are towns anxious to heense lquor shops?!otpur hope so. poses of revenue anI for no other. MrHA.WKINS said thet the -object of the comi' But gentlemen say that the State, by deriving'a.re tntttee.bad.been.to.respotidtothepetitios'n the........ venue from this trade gives it a dignity t.that,othterw'e mltt~..naa:oeento respond ~to.te.emm. u o mO.':i ~ ~th.;i,. _.,;. ea'ject,'ud so far as he was aware"it h~d d.ne.so. He it would not Dossess. I think not, sir In r tlm'view, SbeCt, a,d so far -is he was aware,it hnad-~doneso,..H~:~'." -:'.'~*' -'''nv.:., dad. 1v_~t, see the amen d m ent o he gent leman fo A- of the case, gentlnen say tat the ate ought never . the atienditient. gentlema "i".... toderive a revenue from, Or give'the sanction of law,i' am's,(M-r. COIe Ise', chaliged the' ect oft t see -.'~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~oset.....' -r i''t d..-' a - i'....... o d1;netri o ra.i.selit;o 1nl;oIaDoesl_ tioon -anid of course. dit not deem it necessary. t' Pi, ri i t t dn o a,, by making it exclusive. I think the view is incorrect. critiismsupon115 mendent, radeby te getle-The fact of license has no relatio~n to the, question' m~~~ir~~liethain mthicase ore tan i.aucinee mais from Frank lint (Mr. STANBERv,),or by his frien m thatof auctioner, ~roin Adams,(Mr, MCoitMtci:,) were well taken. 1h Mr. PERKINS hoped the amendment would pre. was true, in general, ttat what a:man did by another vail. If the section was to go int, the Constitntioa he did hliiself but tl)is rule does ot. apply in all times, at all, he wished it made general in its terms. Heoh noir to all case,% especially where a legislative body-is jected to the whole license system, because its effect;' co. ed. rit legislature,, for instanceman was to establish and legalize monopolies. If the city it is, at preseet-understood, grant a divorce; yet iti Ciinati has a igt to license the sale of spirits, II its province, to establish a cou rt.tbat mnay ablish,tie she has an equal right to license the sale of four;aa~, marri-~g'e relation So the Legislature'may establish if- the Legislature can delegate to the city of Cinein the system of icense' by personas'inentding tomarry, nti the power to sell, to an individual, t-e sole righgi yet it has [10 power to'authorize two persons to -be- to supply her citizen s with ardent spirits, it can delecome san'and Wife. gate to the same city, the power to confer upon an in,; 'l'['he question then being on the amend cnt, the dividual, the sole right to supply her citizens with[ -aeWa dotd';'yeS:59, nays not coasted. beef, pork or any other essential article of trade and, Mr. Was doped K. 59, nay)se' cn commerce. Th"s seets to be a valid objection to the: Mr. JC.IRWWO~i)MJnved to attitend the section,, by adding afier the word "liquors,'the foltowing,"or any whole license system. other'rtlcle or articles of1 n'e'rchnisI Ioot desire, Mr. President, to treat the twenty. Mr. KIRKWOOD did not kiow why thecommittee thousand petitioners upon the subject of temperance, should single out one articlealone, and say t hat the le- with disresp~ect. I do not think, thecourse I propose gis'lattire shall n, ot license trafficin it.' i:'e. saw a'o res. will hbe disrespectful. I ar advocating thi declaratio son wity all articles' of trade'shoald -not be placed upon of a general principle, in genieral terms, and if w. futly the same foe odation. He wished by this asnendutent accomplish the wishes of the petitioners, I do not-4hiank toteast the setse oftte Convention,;upon the princi- theywill comoplain if at the same time we secete thi Pie' adoption of an important political truth. Mr. M,,ktNO' could showI th- egentleman fiom' The gentleman from. allia,, (Mr. NAsa,) says, an&' Ric'hiand,' (Mr..Itirw~oo,)[tWentyf thous' and reasons says truly, that the original object of license laws,,. by thec nan.'s o~f' rhat nuiinb~i' of Tbetitione'rs, Wp.this tazatioti. Udoubtedly su,h is the case. It is atmto artf.l~ lelt:hculx be si,ttgldo(,ut fron otho'rs, andmade of levying a special taxz of fleecing a part. of the.O.; h munity for the benefit of tle rest. It is, therefore, s.. M:,~.r. 1!AWI. INS ~a;(lhe geuttleman could not'haveI departure front'the edoctrine, that all the property of p.,~:il to.....:.ryor of the.potitions the State sheu'ld be equally hound to pay the ex'p.g!.f. 1treseitted here, for soin clause inathe Constitution, to: of the State. It isa right, that is granted to the corporestrai'n the evils of intemperancee. Twenty thousand trations of cities and towns, to gain a support of tltair, of the citizens'of Ohio, have singled' out this ques- govertnment out of the trade of tae country.. It isra tion —the subject of tits one article, and have prayed mode of levying black mtai upon the baulitess of the. th'at i pre'vention of any act; to legalize a trade 50 do-. vicinity, to sepport the cities and towns. It is. age: structiv~e, m'ay be inserted in this.'Constittfio/n.: He' power and very productiv~e; but it is incorrect is priahoped the geAtleman from Richland,'would treat' this iciple, and ought to be provided against. by a g~aerai mnatter:'with a little deference t~o the prayer~s of':those Iprovision ita the organic taw of the land, whichshaillo 'who are' at once so numerous, and so mu~ch in'earnest. equally applic~able to one subject or articelieof trade, u. He wanted to have this question stand upon its own to another. -437. 1OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THUlRSDAY, J,aNUARY 30. Mr. BATES desired to say a few words in reply to i ment of the gentleman from Ribchland, (Mr. KtGRthe gentleman from Franklin. All whlo were engated WOOD.) The gentleman fronm Franklin nmisrepresents; in the temperance reform, are anxious to apply to it a the effect of the article which I offered the olthlier day radical remedy. In all their efforts, they had found as an amendmenert to the bill of rights. I then stated themselves mnet by this fact-that the venders of spirit- that I did not understand it to interfere with the uous liquors, do it under a license from the Legislature powers of corporate towns to establish markets, andt of the State, granted under its provisions, sanctioned market days, to regulate the introductioo of powder' by its authority, and issued by one of the officers of within their corporate limits, make santaory regula the governmient. Here it at once a power to vend with tions, &c. I stated that its object was merely to cut a' patent from the State. It is issued only to men of down the power to sell the exclusive right to trade in good moral character. The calling is nade respectable certain articles-the power to establish a mnjopoly, by act of law, the evidence of which the patentee car- by making a given person the agent of the governriesin; his hand, to refute at once any imputation upon ment to trade in a given commodity. I hope the his chatater. amenidment of the gentleman from Richlatid will ell, what is this license? It is authority to make prevail, and that it will, before the subject is disposed, men drunk according to law. He may sell a matn li- of, be made t more broad ad copeesive "TNON, seaidte prpsitilmore bofd the gpeesiie. quor until he is drunk-if hlie sells Lim a drop more, Mr. STANTON said the proposition of the gentlethen the nice morality of the State is outraged, and man from Ricliland, (Mr. KIRK;vooD,) mighit e riflght he may be fined. but if so, it was right for a different reason freao that The difference seems to be here: The temperance urged in favor of the section to> which it was offered men of the State-those who have been long engaged as an amendment. There waas no necessary ~onnecin the cause, think that in order to put down intern- tion between the two, and the attempt to unite thcnmi perance, you must abolish the license system, and so would be productive of confusion. He regretted that far take away the respectability of the business of the gentleman from Richland had chlosen to embarrass niaking men drunkards. On the other hand, the gen the original proposition by one so totally distinct. He tlemoan from Franklin, who has not even read the pe- i hoped he did not want to destroy the report by indititions, thinks otherwise. Which is the safest guide? rection. That under the cireuastannees, weld not Fl6r my part, I am disposed to believe that these men, ibe a fair mode of testing the strength of a questionwho have thoroughly investigated the subject, are the i in the Convention. safest counsellors. They ask that this monopoly He wished to say a word upon the arguient of the shall be put down- that the protectiotn shall betaken gentleman from Franklin. Until within a year or away, so that public opinion may be brought to bear two he had beent of the samie opinion, and had taken directly upon the subject. Is there anything utirea- the same ground. But the friends of tem-perane, on sonable in this? Anything improper? Anything that every side, cried out for an open field. lThey eould in the least interferes with the rights of our citizetns? not contend against that sanction of the traffic which I think not. But I have been astonished to see some w- as conferred by a licentse issued to a rmati of a good genttlemen, who have a holy horror of monopolies, still moral character. Take away that shield, and the upholding this, the most odious of all monopolies. parties are placed upon equal ground. if the people But my friend from Franklin, who, I believe, as ear-' are willing to tutrn loose the horrors of intetperance tiestly opposes intemperance as any of us, is afraid'upor themselves, and then to betr thetm, without an that the result will be to increase the amyounit of liquor effort to rid themselves of the evil, let thle n do it. sold, and thus defeat the object. How? Can the One great obstacle t the adopton f a elation be greater facilities for obtaining it than now exist? like that probased is the necessity in towns anti I doubt it. Nay, I will agree with the gentleman, that ities for the reveitue that tccrnies froin the traffic. if hlie will show me a man, with money eniough in hiws ra pocket, who can not get his dram of whisky in any There is e aans in these towns::f circa;s a grdt dearth or revenue. aind as the sale of licenises aff-ord., vicinity where there is a licensed public house, I will ia certan atid consideianl s the y a re alwavs read.y give up the question. He can't do it, unless his ob- a tr ain nselae tsre, 1and anxious to avail th-emiselves, of it. Sucso servationi has been different from mine! I hope the m sa a,i tecn il1s dt re t I ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~revenue a'e scarce. anid the couinc~ils de-termiilmi to risk section will be adop ted, and that much good will re- the evil for the sake of the gain. Tihat induceinnt suit. ~~~~~~~~~~should be taken a-way. Mr. PERKINS said ti.e time was when everything hu e take y connected with humani governmenit was doise by ic( T truthe isto the geat o to htemperance pulsion; when forts, and fleets, and armies, were the refom is the espectability of those h engage i chief means of goveriiing the world. Then goverii- the traffic. And that traffic, being legalized, it is rement was a sort of sausage-stuffing machinie-every- pectable l)v lav, and respectable mel uay tijake it a, business. ]f every man who pleased weeallowed thing went by pressure-by driving-by steam.r a who pleased r No w tobuy and (,,il s pir:ituous liquors, it wonhli b~ring- in,, the thing is otherwise. Another elemient enters in to buy aid sl spit s liquors it lliring to form the motive power of public affairs. B'at all sorts of miie, and the calling wouldl fall inito dis 1repuite,, and becomie degraded —men of ch-ar'acter eleineit is poblic opinion. The opinions of men are w uld not r esort to the places where spirits characte retailbrought,to bear upon the times, and the conseque would not resort to the places where spirits are retalis, that reforms are radical and permanent, for they ed Now it is not so. So long as the places are rerest not upon laws which may be repealed, but uipo speetable, en -aill resort to then), add drunkards the settled habits and principles of the people them- will be made ot of sober men. If we could take 1selves. away the splendid tenmptations of the liquor dogge fIn regard to the license qtiestion, I believe that ried where tae upper ten go, there would be fe t.hose laws which hold a shield before such trai druni aids made; as to those other places where are mineyorfal in their teridency, either to,tle pa]rEon drunkards are finished off, it is iot so niuch mattet. protectcd or his customer, are wrong; aud I believe Mr WIR'WOOD wanted to say a few words by the effect of license laws has been uniformly bad' T way of explanation. The gentlenicit freon Morgan, say, then, repeal the license laws, and if men wigl en (Mr. HAWhiNS,) had intimated tha he had shown a gage in the trade, let them stand or fall by the public want of respect to thee twenty thousaud petitioners opinion of the community in which they reside. upon this subject, by offeritg his amendment. He I would now inquire into the effect of the amend- did not pled guilty to the charge If he bad dife 438 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, JANUARY 30. 439 that state of things. If that is the fair interpretation of it, I am willingto give it my support. The friends of temperance ask that the license system be abolished, that they may have ali open field and fair free fight, which they claim they cannot have whiie the traffic is made respectable by the license system. I am with them in opinion, and desire to give them a firee field for operations. When the teilperance reform first commenced, its friends relied solely on moral means, end the cause prospered well until legislative aid was called in, when, from that moment, the reform has been on the retrograde. The friends of the reform, having seen the bad effects of relying measurably upon legislative force to carry forward the measure, now desire to return to the use of moral means. All experience siows that religion or moral ity cannot be enforced by legal coercion, or by resort ing to any forcible means whatever. Much,,however, has been effected by moral means, to reform this greatest of all evils, and much may yethe done by resorting to the same means. Mlr. SAWYER acknowledged that he felt consider able interest in this subject, but it was a matter with which legislation had really nothing at all to do. His constituents asked merely to be let alone in this mat ter. According to hlisjuldgment, no instrument could be tnore effective than such a clause as this, in the hands of its enemies, to defeat this constitution before the people He was not himself o ry t.enacious of the subjectof temperance. He had never in his life joined a temperatince society; al(i he objectedl to a-sly,ocial organiza tion setting up a staiidard eitherin niorals orreligion, forhirm tobegovernedby. Hereccgnizednothingas a crime which was not interdicted in the sacred scrip tures. iHe regarded the scriptures of the New Testa ment as a perfect rule of practice, and adopted it- for himself in preference to any thing, and to the exclu sion of every thing conflicting with it, suggested by mere human" authority. But there were other sins besides drunkenness, and of more appalling magnitude, pointed out and forbidden in the Bible with which society were far more grievously afflicted, than with the vice of intern peranceS and how was it thlat we had no petitions 'aland memorials against the course of legislatlon, with reference to these blacker crimes? He object ed to t e mpe rance socie ties, as a service in morals, going quite beyond the divine requirements. The roly temperance society of which the ew Testa ment (a copy of which he hfiel d in his ha nd) gave any account, was to be found in t he twent y t y h ird chapte -of Acts o f the Apostle s, t welf th verse. SEVERAL VOICES. Read! read! Mr. S. then read as follows: ,And when it wa s d ay, certain of the Jewst banded themselves t o gether, and b ound themselves under a curse,sayind that they -old neither eat nor drink till they had killed Pau l. And the y were more tha n forty which hald ma de t his consp irac y. But, Mr. Chairman, continued Mr. S., these all broke their pledge. Sir, I am asked now to join in a crusade against the unfortunate inebriate. B~ut let me say to you, sir, mwlth respect to that class of mankind w,ho are so un fortunate -as to beecome drunkards many of then} pos sess goodl, honlest hearts; and they are to be palted mzore than they are to be blamed, for this frailty. And now, disguise it as you w-ill, you are here framing a section which is to operate against this unfortunate class of men. If you go to the legislative power to suppress i~n temperance, how will you proceed? Will you confine ed from thee in opinion, he might do so without dtisrespect. Mr. HAWKINS said he had no intention to make such charge. He had answere d a question of the gentleman by referring to this petitioners-that was all. Mr. KIRKWOOD said tihe gentleman from Logan, (Mr. STaNTON,) also had charged- him with an attempt to load down the Report and prevent i t s adoption That was not his object. He was not the man to at Tadeet was I & hoped i~t wold eadpe.adomoeapligmitueponeouan tempt to carry liis po ints in that wwhy; athd if the peulilar friends of the Report t h oughlt his am endment u o o e would do so, he would ollesi it. Mr. STANTON. I think so. Mr. KIRKWOOD did not wish to embarrass the friends of the prop positiotn. He wanted them to ha ve a direct vote u pon it. It did seemn as little strange to himatretatin that a raenlation of thi s kind had been asked f)r, only ill regard to one article.'Ihe business of this body is t ass ert age nral prin-ciples. If the gen eral prinaciple is corre,t, it will be oi-rect in everv particuilar case. tiee hia1 a few remarks that he desired to ,nake, tipon:, the general l)rilnciple, but this was not the proper time. Mr. KIRKWOOD obtained leave to withdraw his *amrendmnent. Mr. THw3MPaoN of Shelbt, Amo ved to amend the Report,n by striking out all before the word'may," in t.he sixth lin,ee, and insertin,g ini lieu thereof, the follow-ing - 'No lie,et. ortrafidc in intloxi'cating liquors shall hereafter tse gra!ated. ili this State, hut by the Gen~ieral X sembly." .Mr.'t'HOMI PSO,N of Shlelbv, w.)ishe d to explain briefly the object,of hisi lead[]le,1t. He understood that a number of the towns and cities of the State had now tile power t,o s.rant iicet ses. Such being the ,case, he?,it-c/idved the laniguage) of t~he report would I not remedy the evil, antd t,here would be no prohibi tion of the granting of liceuses, unless the Legislature should g(.) bak and. repeal so much of their char,ers as gave the power. He had offered the resolut~ion in good faith, to remedy what appeared to him a defet, alnd lte hoped it would be ado)pted. Me. McCORMLICK said it did not appear to him that tlai,s amendment would change the power of the Legislature. TIhe provision, as it is, would prohibit the Legislature ~rmta authorizing licenses. It would do more. It would empower that bodv to repeal all those laws which confer tie power. ]]ore -the Con,stittitiotn itself will either operate as an amendment t4o the charter. or will make it imperative upon the Legislature tG amend them. He thought the amend anent a itere change in phrase~ilogy-iiothin, more. On myiotioni of -Mr. SAWYEPr, The Conventioni took a recess. 3 O'CitK, P. M. The quiestio(n peyru(lin-g woolen the Conivention took a recess, was upon the adoptiono of the amendment of Mr. THoM'PSoN of Shelbv, to wit: striking out from the report the words, "the General Assemrbly shall not license traffic itn intoxicating liquors, but," and illserti r ang d these wods, "No license to traffic in intoxicating liquors shall hereafter be granted in this State, but the Geim.eal Assembly shall," Mr. CLAR,K. If I understand the wish of the many petititiorneirs moi the subject of the licensing and sae .of ardent spirits,'etid the wish of the friends of temperance, as expressed here in debate, they desire that all laws on the su)jct of the sale of spirittuous liquors .shall be repealed, and the traffic be left entirely free. The report new before the Convention, it is claimed by its friends, is calculated and intended to produce AF"-FLR,NOO',g SF.9,SION. .... lb;.~ ~.~ ~,:,,..,. ,.bD~ ~.-~ ~- 75 A-. -0 E l ........~ ~,.~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~-~~~~~~~~ 1 ~ .,,..., %~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~. QIJ0 H~O, CQ ~T:ON:?.DEBA!T"~S ~. —.:Tm~s sD.~,,'J a~u~a, 30. And tlhe question.being upon, striking out,-it. as of:their couutty's bonop?..Can it be hat the.hu'Yoh 'g reed to"..,of God is-locked: upin selfish schemes for itsown;,,teei W,he, qu'estiont i inserting the words poral advancement, anddeclines to move i~n ohadie. e above rei-,eat moral reformatiodlt -:M~ve r. ~'~I R o,: aid the aeden'of the I PSir, among the. signers to these petitions I re-cogut, f"' Mr, TtrhL QItos, 8(.;of soai ut,u.u.e-'.;ow ~ ~,,'',' -y gentleman from'Shelby (Mr. Taompso.), presented the names of some who are:evoted members of c-.i.the whole subject for,,sc ion. it iS simliv' that.ian ehurehe —who.worthily, I doubt not, stadidhigh hereafter no License shall ever be granted. in Ohio, for for their true piety and practical exhibition in life,,and the'traffic in intoxicatingliquors. And he desiredto couduct, of the religion thley,lprefess, will they:.adfitit say a word or two on the subject.!isposition:on that ttieir church, the blessed sanctuary around wtoso th~is.icense question.;was well,understood, at home. altars cluster their dearest hopes ofearth and heave. —:;it had been brought'~to bear upon him at.the polls. the church where they resort to hear. the'tru'bs,of 'any' doubtless" from very conscienntous imotives, eternal blessings or e..ternal woe from: the lips of -tite ' usedl it. again~st him, whistothers had done so,'ot man of God, chosen to-preach His word.Will they 'biecause'of'their'zeal in the ause'oftempemrance.o a0 dmit that their church and the pious men, w}lio nia much as to gratify personal malice, Re should not, ister at.its'.d tars are derelict in duty on a. subject ii -ol. therefore, have troubled the Convention with a awrd, viug the appalling consequences.in: tim- and- eternity, 'had it not been forareason hewould now stat. le which they,so eloqueatly' depict? ~'had th'e'honor, a day ortw'o since, to presentitwope- ISir, I commend this assertion in t h eirs aietin,to titions bearing.the signatures of some hundred tand -seritms recoosideratiyzi I... -ft of the ladis of the county of Ross On'looking to them in all respect, they have been;induced;to iver the naiceso he'recnized a few With whoah give their' sanction to.an error'unfounded~,, k i.'Iact, hadi the honor Of personal acquaintance.. But. he: and inrious. to:the well intenttued and,.asltb 5, .wiould say of all of them that the high position they well.direeted efficieu.t effort, of the church;to'radiite i'~ccnpy for respeetability. and mora worth, entitles vice of every hue'ad name, nat alone lnttmpd~'e, lierni, not only to his.profound respect. but an avowal but all the si-ful and vicious,propensittes;of: 4ofithe reasons whic govern'his action, on, the subject manty.', which they have in some sort, entrusted to his care. Mr GREEN then proceeded to read ne.!ffomhae~t I shall do so sir, (said Mr. G.) freely, with great re- on the petitici), aud cont. spect for them, and for the subject. "Before I do so, Sir, these ladies haveithsinlel'oquent}V,guagi',:pre however, I desire to say a word or two, by.way of sented their grievances,I in most ltstpiu~ -to say' that comment, on the positions assumed.in their petitious. there is not one of, them,a'beievet.sn:,uti'r.unaete ':[iqie form is printed, consequently both are alike. ta -to be thevi e,tim,!-f the wre tcbed n e,o- t' ltioh. itey Te se: r~'~';'' t ouI'1 t'with asserting' that "the women a'nd Speak. being wives,.mothers4mad ait. ter ~ resect ch'ldren"~ of-fOhio,}'are many ofthem in extreme pover. abtemiperm,ance citens' l:Bat'- 9thee;evaie4i,~'.o ~i:t'y, and wretchedness, caused by',existing laws I see the m.isc fs they derrribe;ar.ioundtt 4-o ]kjoning and:legalizing the tr'affi inaet spirites. d it tey sayt isoifAndsto thev igescruittbe:: ere sir,' is the$ fallacy which has been repeated by said that they do not presume to p'reserib o the g'geutlemen. upon this.'foor.;.."'existiug laws,"'do not.though they evidently look: to somethlit hk. the tpi.'santion or lega:i ize", the traffic. They simply regu- osition before.us. as:,the proper- one.: N-othtng -.r, .late the traffic., in tie absence of any law on' the sub would affobd me re. gratification,:it w.id be' ~.j'et,t:the traffi~c~~i whiskvywould. be just as free as in pride,'as itris iny duty5, to aid in advocating,any,!% any hihng else,'.The' traffic' does not,.grow out of the sure they desire, but. believing that they,,ad.'theis:"tlo leg'aliz-uog effect' of the laws-and it is therefore, an er- I visers, are mista.ken'ia the course they woeld'se~emqo mror to.imputethe disastrous etfects of the use of intoxi indicate as the proper one, I cannot lend the'roffvi c'ating liquors,to the laws which look to restraining the tion my atd. Mr. SAWYER interposed and read the followig' g ~'Suppose all-existing. liaws authorizing the granting extract from a petition presented se ten d ysyageby o'f iiconses to retail' spirituous'liquors, were repealed?. th e ge ntleman from Clinton, [Mr. Moatius,' whicbh:ihe ,'The result would he that every man who could raiser5 pronounced a slauderous falsehood: eets'to. buy a jug'of whisk.y, ymight go to work. "This.(selling liquor under lideuse,)'has o-'no,p'al *''ree trade iii whisky." That is what the friends of lel in history, which now occurs to us, save the;ek - temperance, some ot them, have upon this ftoor ed saleof indulgences to the conimission of-Oin,:b the 'said thev desire-but I will comment on that branch pope of Rome." o~f the subject, presently. This was a falsehood when it was penned;,'alwtii~ s ~ ".repeat then that it is erroneous to impute to the had been a falsehood; and he supposed it always w'td laws'on the suibject, the- evils that arise from intermper, be. alie, unless it cait be shown that limiting the numtber Mr GREEN resumed; Sir,intemperanceis,most"qi of.those who shall be permitted to vend liquor.,stimu- questionably, a great evil. But it is.not peculiear'to latoes the appetite, and. increases the facilities. for pro- the present age; wherever and whenever men:h'iiie curing liquor. been able to avail themselves of the use of intoxich'ting 'After speaking in language, truly eloquent, of the'! drinks, they have always dune so. Thle denuuciatlii"hs ~terrible disasters which follow in the path of this vice,ofteBo,twhc thgeteanfotugaz tl'epetiiongoeson o sa: "I van hae w trutedhad referred, were directed against drun'kenness;"": but t~o legislators and the church —the.one interested to they are also directed against gluttony,. and the abuse s~ecure popular favor for future advancement,:the oth-ofeeygothn. tisteuseotteueoth ~r haviug their time, talent and'snergy, devoted to sen- thing, which is evil.~.' ding mis~sionaries to the heathen, or buildi'ngand;' fur- Bt o,i spooe,topoii h e~str isishging churches at home, neither of whom are willing. from licensing by la, the retail of ardent spirits.' The to take one step in advance of public sentimaent,~for the,ge,tleman from Logan, ~Mr STANTON4 ha's/8 affivrased, defence of. the weak,.or for the advaticement of their i ttthe license made the traffic: resoectable; lit/tath'h'/r ~unr's hoo.' t~_:' b:!.''d. respectable -men to pay a license to'keep adritnk S~~an~ thi bes i.s tqe General Assembly afraid la hos-weeteuprte ih eotfrge 'to act for the d4efence of the weak and the advaace~ment! gtake aw~ the licence,:and::the'traffic ~itl'~}:b~~ OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —THIURsDAY, JANUARY 30. infamnous-for a respectable man would not go into a they shall be clothed. These petitioners desire steps grog shop. Sir, there is one thing which must be to be taken "in advance of public sentiment." I say conicede(l, it is beyond all controversy-aiand that is, to them, beware how they recommend a fatal error. whether you license the sale of intoxicating liquors, or Let me say to them that sound, wholesome, practical not, they will be sold, and they will be drank. But legislation, is but the reflection of sound, wholesome you are to make the traffic infamous. And this you public sentiment You calnnot force a public senti will accomplish, by withholding the liceuse. Now, ment, by means of legislation. If you attempt it, be air, suppose, (for the sake of the argument,) I concede ware of the re-action. Let legislation be forced the proposition, (which, iil all respects, I consider an through the medium of public sentiment, and then it absurdity,) and what follows? Why, the traffic is to will be effective. fall into the hands of infamous men. The restraint Mr. President, if these petitioners had themselves impl)osed by the laws, requiring that the privilege shall drafted these petitions, or had they only reflected lw confined to such as caln give evidence of moral upon the sentinients they contain, I am constrained standing, is to he renmoved. And here, let me say, that to think they would have been far from giving their if this intention of thle laws is not carried cut, it is the sanction to them. I deny, most respectfully, that the fault of those to whom the administration of the laws is Legislature of Ohio is unmindful of "'the country's intrusted. All restraint, is to be resiJved, and then honor." I deny that the Church of God is unwillilng say gentlemen, the traffic will become infanmous. Do "'to take one step in advance of public sentiment, for theiy suppose, that infamous nien, such as they seem to! the defence of the weak, or for the advancement of have in their mind's eye, will not be found to engage their coiuntry's honor." Its ministers are, I believe, Ia the traffic? faithful servants, deeply impressed with the solemim Sir, your general governulent has tried every exc responsibilities imposed upon them; and if they can pedient to prevent the sale of intoxicating liquors to be charged with error in the mranuer of their minis the Indians-but notwithstanding, it is well kniown try, it is that they do sometimes attempt to take a step the "fire water" rouses the passions of the savage to in advance of public sentiment, in the enforceiment of madness, and turns hill) loc,se a maniac, armed with moral precepts and duties. The Gospel of the Sa tomahawk and scalping knife, upon helpless wotmei viour of the world covers the whole ground, and i:s and children. Yes, tlhere are men vile enough to sufficient for time and for eternIity-it is the perverse evade the law and minister to this accursed traffic ness of men that retards its growth and weakens its with the savage. Yes, sir, iiak( the traffic as odious power. Its mission is, however, to persuadenien, not as you may, so long as tieil leave an appetite for to force them, arnd its ministers act wisely when they liquors, and will pay fir it, it will be sold. AndI now so act, in treating with a habit which has its source what is proposed't It is said that licensing the trade iii the appetite of man, which is ati evil only when mniakes it respectable, that is respectable men will en carried to excess-which is wrong onuly when inpru gage in it. Take away the license laws, and though (entlv indulged. You may persuade them into the you can't suppress, -annihilate the trade, it will be- con iction that total abstinetice from that habit will come infamous, that is none but infamous men will offer the surest safeguard, and induce them to adopt engage in it. This is the argument. Sir, where do Sour plan, but you can't force them; if you attempt the evils of intemperance most strikingly exhibit it, the very perversity of mnian's nature pronmpts hin), themselves-atnog your "upper tens" spoken of by instantly, to rebel. They point you at once to the gentlemen? No sir, it is among the poorer classes hosts of pious, venerated names, who, in their day, that they are seen in their most appalling forms.- have partaken, soberly, of the cup. They brand your Here there is a- great moral evil that, like a pestilence, efforts with the stigma of fti'taticism; and then your walketh in darkness and wasteth at noonday. And advice is useless. instead of striking at the root-prohibiting the sale Sir, I take issue with those who say that the traffic of whisky by heavy pains and penalties, gentlemen in liquor is stimulated by your license law.they do propose that it shall be left free to all; and then, ac- to sonme extent. operate as a restraint. Establish this cording to the necessary result of their argument, the proposition-recaeal your laws, prohibit all similar most unworthy characters in community will be left enactments, decare "free trade in whisky," and you free to carry desolatici, disgrace and death to all will have a day of general jubilee among these "rlim whose appetite is too stroi)g to be controlled by pru- sellers and rumn suckers," as the venders and drinkers dence. of liquor are so eloquently denominated by gentlemen. Why do tlhey not meet the case fully? Why not I will not aid ii any such project-I will not interfere ask for a provision in the Constitution prohibiting with this subject, in any way in this Constitution-I the sale of liquor? Because they frankly admit that will leave it where it properly belongs-to the workpublic opinion will not sustain such a provision. ings of a sound, practical public sentinment, o)peratilig But public opinion does demand some salutary re- through thelegislature. I will notinthisinstrument straints upon the traffic tlhese restraints your laws undertake to ask that which this same "public sentidesign to impose-but these laws gentlemen desire mnent," has not yet enforced by legislation. Gentleshall be repealed. men admit that the tiine has not come, the public Sir, the evils consequent upon intemperance are mind is not ripe for decided action,and therefore they great-all concede this —but until vou can convince will not vote to prohibit the sale of intoxicating liquor. men that the use of liquor, temperately, prudently, is When the public sentiment shall demand it it will a wrong, you cannot effect anything by prohibitions. be done. Until that is don-restrain, regulate the Every in( rdtiiate cup is unblessed traffic by your legislation as you please, for myself I And the itgredient is a deuils. care not —but I will not, by my vote, legislate upon It is the "ijaordinate cup" that is cursed, whose in- this, or any other question, if I can avoid it. gredient is a devil, which men "put into their mouths What I have now said, sir, has not been so much to to steal away their brains." True, legislation m'ust explain my position befote this body; I have spoken proceed upon this hypothesis, to be effective-if it more especially and particularly, (!houghi I do not ofattempts to do more, it will fail. No government ever ten niake speeches here for outside effect,) because of attempted to enforce suitpttuary laws without failing. the respect and esteem which I entertail for these Men will not submit to be directed by law, in what signers, who have sent these petitions to ins, knowing they shall eat, or what they shall drink, or wherewith the position which I occupy upon this question. And 442 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TIURsDAY, JANUARY 30. I now say to them, in conclusion, that f claim to know better than they do, what they want uponl this subject; and I claim the right to say here, that this proposition is not what tley do watit. That is, ttat it will not ac complisl-i thee eooi they look to. Mr. HAWK[NS said the general q,lestion h id been discussed, whilst liota word had been said upon thed particular questionl before the commnrittee* hut sucli was the prevailing license of debate in Comnmittee of the Whole. But why should gentlemen take alarmn at this report? One gentlemaln had assumied that it was anl attack upo n the poor itnebriate; and that the conlvention was;boutl to provide some cruel punishmrnent for every unfortunate ildividual who miight beconime a dru)nkard. But this was a most singoiar and unfoundei apprehension. And the gentleman called upon the Convention not to go in advance of public opinion. But how was this public opinion to be certified to us except by their pe titious. Woill that gentleimaii assume, with the gentleman from Auglaize, that these petitioners were iinsincere? These petitioners were tnumerous and they were respectable, yet they were represented as med dlers Tie voice of public sentiment, proved that it was the duty of this convention to make some res. ponse to these petitions. Wight should be that res ponse? rhe gentleman from Augla-ize would tell them they were insincere and hypocritical, and goilng quite beyond the record. Bo th gentlemen had evaded the r ea l question. Thef first propositioes was that "no license to trdilic ih if toxicating liquors" should be granted. He had expect ed th e support of th e gentleman f rom Auglaize for this )roptosition; beca use it was a law against monopolies, and t hat gentlemt an w as kn own to be opposed to all monopolies. He believed that gentle men had sanction ed a const itutiona l provision agdiltst duellietg; and a provisiw n rgainlst v ending lottery tick ets. Yet he wou!d tolerate this evil of making an in famous traffic respectable,by taking it into tite folds of the law. But this report had been treated as though gentlemen had not seeni the second lit)e-suggestitng to the Legis lature, to provide against the resulting evils of this traffic. 1 he object was to take away the shield of this evil -the shield of the law —which re'dered it more diffi cult to combat. The whole armioulnt of revenue derivable from couI1 ty licenses, was only a litt,e over $12,000 annually. He believed that this report embodied what woulA be regarded as a satisfactory re.spotise, to the numerous petitions which had been presented upon this subject. tie was not very much attached to the amendment, though he believed he slhould vote lor it.. Trhis provis ion would not affect an)y man's liberty, or any n)an's rights. The gentleman from Auglaize, had been unfortunate in his selection of,atuthority. If het had goIiea little fur ther back, he would have found a divine approvail of a temperance effort in the fanlily of Joeladab the Jew. The Rechabites were commanded and blessed for adher ing to the command of their father, to drink no wine fol ever Mr. LARWILL rose to a question of order. He wishebd to kn)ow whether we should have so mulch preachinlg here, without any prayers. Mr. HAWKlNS replied we haud beenl a long timne praying, here, e-very morning we had beenl prayed tv, and prayed for. ll might be thlat lhe singin~g had been1 negtected;5 but Lit was now certainly'time to comre to the lecture. Trhere were gre~,t financial an~d political considera tions not to be lost s~ght of here. H-e undertook to say, that the evils- the plund er and monopoly rtsulting frofm this cause,were more oppressive, more afilicting-mor wide t spre a d in tioe ir r ui iious codseque wiCes than thoeel resulting fro m all other cUsnc ba y wiicil the people of this State, have b en cursed. Mr. TAYLO)P. I have sougi;lt the fl)or be e lUih I desire to iltAero3e onle, or two collsi leratiols, atnd a,l- t dreps them to tlrose who are disposeld to debate ti is subject dt length. As I ubnd er stan m l) the section, laow propoveagi to > amendded, I am in favsor of i t; but, i f it i.Lo se to have the construction given to it by SOite gentlemn, I canno t approve it. B.t, a s t understand tm e prilncip le, I say, it corem'ands nmy assent. The word "license," is a republican anomakly. I ta ifiea is areti-republicakg. It should not be kiiow ti amongst free ren. If any tr af fi be lIeonorable alnd lawful, then vot coave no rigeht to impose restraints up. on it; but if it is crimiinal,certainily the p:-ople of Ohio, through their representatives, iha vi e no right to legalize crime. Take either horns of the dilemsma: If th e traffic is wrong, the n your license is wro ng; and if it is right, it should be free to all. Tie amendment makestt the teree ws o f the s ection more comprehensive. They a re not i,)w confined to t he a ctiont of the Legislature; but runninlg down through all tile grade s of munbicipa l lAw, t he y pre - scrilre that )o license for this traffid,o, shall be grom s ted in tile State ()f Ohio. I a m in favor of that. IAnd her e I (desire, tb aioe t c t eti to be allowed to l atention to the latter clause of thesectioll, Jaeillely: thha t tele w elleral Assembly may, by general law, provide against the e vils resulting frow this trafliti. Fboy this, I ut derstand, that subsequent LegisT laturet cailot p- oahibit, but that they may otly prov de agalist tlhe evils re. su1ting from this traffic. The gentleman from Jefferson, [Mr. BATES,] see)ors to have takel that line of argurperdt, whilst the getitle man from Logan, [Mr. STANTON,] seems to uuderstand that, upori petitiotn,thhe Geieral Asse-nbly may suppress the traffic; and herein lhe y diffcer. I am with tile gentleman from Jefferso!n. I am against theh license systen, in all its forei ms. I am wiLl- that gentlemant, also, in giving toto the Legislature, power to pass remedial laws, against the evils of this traffic. But I am with him, only on this hypothesis. I fild my zealous friend before me, [Mr. STANTOli,] wishin1g the power of license to be takeni away, so that tilere may be. a pell mell of local applications to the Legislature, to prohibit tlhe traffic. Now, before we vote upson this proposition, sir, I I waiittiese tiiscrepalicies reconciled. I want to know whether I am to vote agaiinst licenise, or whether I armi going to vote to the Legislature, the- entire control of the subject. I am ready to give a remedial power over the resultant evils of the traffic. This discussion, sir, will be of a most salutary effect, if we improve it as we should, and ascertain tile limits of the Legislative dep;artment. The other day, upon another subject, I ventured to express the opinion. that there was an unlimited pow er exercised by the General Assembly, except in cases wherein their power was restrained by the constitu tiol, and bill of righits. That except in cases where lthey were so restrainsed, thleir power was unllimited. But, I wals then re~txinded-anao forcibly, too —that the closiig section of the hill of rights, ulpon wh~ich we hlave passed, is in thsese wordls: "iThis enu1mera3tionl of powers, shall nlot be construed to impair or densy oth ers retainedl by lthe peop~le; and all pow~ers not her~)n delegated, remnainl with the people." Sir, I wish that wvere the practical construction1 of the inlstrumuent w e are forminxg. It is a beautiful theo. ry of the general groverlrnment, "tha~t all powver nlot. del 4 -13 OHIO CONVENTION BATE-T sAy, JAUARY 30. egated to the United atetes by the Constitution, nor anti enumerated a long list, murder, stealing, adUltery, prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the lying,&C., and tsked.why let all these alone au?d:e States respectively, and to the people." ~lere we ploy ill your artillery against intemperance? If we have almost the same lanrguage applied to the gener-, should not do our whole duty, would that be. a gOd al Assemnibly: lbit I hold tha, they have hitherto been: reason why we should not do it, in any particular ia treated as void and meaninL,less words. But gentle- stance? But who ever heard of murder,,stealing, adul men say all power not expressly delegated is reserv- tery or lyinlig being licensed-legalized-for a coaside ed: andi I yield oni account of the importance of the rat-on paid to.the State. If the gentleman will say.to priuciple. It becomes, at ontce,a fundaniental, a sem- me that he apprehends such a calamity, I will uui.te rnal principle-a clear touch-stone, by which to with him in prohibiting it in the constitution. Btt if;.he bring the action of the Legislature to the test. I anm has notthen tie paraltll fails. And now I submit to the willing to yield, if I am to ulnderstand thbs to be thee gentleman if he does not feel that he was hard rur wh.n construction.: I applyit in this way. Here is a grant he resorte(il to such an argument,and indeed if hie is not of power. But the former portion of the section is in now a,little ashamed of it. But, Sir, here is a giganntn the nature of aprohibitioi., if the amendment should evil which produces.more misery and wretchednless, and be ado)pted. The General Assembly may apply their crinme, thar a1ll other vices combined, anid the question remedy against the evils of the traffic. They can is not whether itshall be prohibited and punished, but entertain no proposition to interfere with the liquor whether it shlall be licensed, sanctioned, and sane traffic itself. That is not in the bond. tified, and made honorable and respectable, so far as Ullnless this section is to place this whole subject in the law cal give it that character. And a gentleman a state of repose hereafter, I am against it. If it is to of the standing, intelligence, and respectability of the remove the gitation of this subject from Columbus, gentleman fromn Auglaize, (Mr. SAwYER) answers m then I amn contelit-I cheerfully yield my vote to its- the affirmative, and justifies himself by such alogic s adoption. BuIt if this is to be only as the entering this. wedge-the prelude to legislative agitation-then 1 But thegentleman has another argument, which I say hands off fro m the whlole subject. But I am for used occasionally to hear some eight or ten yearsago it, as it stanids, because I understand it is not to be! amongst loafers about bar-rooms and street cormers. made the topic of agitkationx inl tlhe General Assembly, And that is, that Ihe and his constituents are indepeo o"Ycept by thle enactment of sub.sequent and re.medial dent freemen, and will not surrender their right tosuc bya hews. rufn and make beasts of themselves as m.uch as they Mr. STANTON. I had supposed there could be please. This is a privilege that I do not esteem very i1o controversy about the reanieng of the latter clause highly, and am at altl times willing to transfer it to any of tltis Repo(rt-that las piovidiLng against or re- gentlenlan who atiaches the least importance to it. Strainiwig the evil results of this traffic might be pass- Mr. President, I had not supposed that we should be ~d. Wbat k-ind of laWls will be passed, surely s a called upon here, to make an argument in support of (ciucstion, no mant calln answer.' The geitleman fromi the cardinal principles of tthe temperance reformation. hrie, (Mr. TAYvOR,) says that the Legislature may I had -supposed tlhey were well understood and generalpass laws providing against the evils resulting' trom ly recognized by all intelligent men. this traffic; but he aIeks what kind of laws'? I canniot The argument in brief is tihise: -The use of intoitell: this remains to be a question for the considera- cating liquors as a beverage, is the cause of intempetion of the Legislature. 1 cannot tell what descrip- rance.'!hat, although some m'n may be able to ontioris of law they niav see proper to enact. It may -he trol their appetites, so as not to use it to excess, yet 'for Confining tlhe tri ffie to particular persons, antd for there always will be a large nuniber who canniot, amd particular purposes.- O it may be for restraining the who fall victims to the destroying angel. '~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ittsal to tfrie desarvi uanities: sale to r)articular qlarntities. The evil is one of such mrnagnitude that it calls f,,or I speak only for mnyself, but my own view of the correction at any cost, and at all hazards. subject is that if the license is prohibited, as is pro- Tlhe only remedy is total abstinence from all that in posed by this Report, that the Legislature should toxicates. retant' a e o noiaiglqos ecpt o toxicates. restrain the sale of intox,icatin g1 liquors,'except for: Total abstinence, therefore, is asocial and Christian such purposes and in such quantities as. mnight be duty. cQnsistent with the public welfare, and in accordance If abstinence is a duty, then it would seem to follow with public opinion. I would pass no law that pub- that.the use, and consequently the traffic in spirits to be lic opinion would( not sustai'n, because it would not be used as a beverage, is sinful in itself. -eectuted, but would remain a dead letter upon the And all experience demonstrates that the tendency stat vehadtagte book. tiafeno.Srn of it is "evil, and only evil, and that continually."' "I have'heard srnethiin~.s this afternoon. Strange I e You prohibitgamning, Sabbath-breaking, &c. upon doctrines, tine aud place considered. Strange mor- the same principle, BECAUSE THEIR TENDENCY iS L. als for the Ohio Constitutional Convention and the If two boys upon the street raffle for a peniny, they middle of t~he- nineteentht cenlturyr. - -- " middle geof thema nineteeth centrm g,. are liable to a fine. Not on account of the enormity The gentleman from Auglioss, (Mr. SAwYER,) and of the tran saction, but because the tendency of it.-is the gentleman from Ross, (Mr. Gazi',) incidentally evil. So you fine an unlicensed person who sells a have resorted to a kind of logic which I had suppos- gill of whisky; and for the same reason. But traffic ed was long since exploded.- I had -not supposed io ardent spirits is the only indictable offence.which that any gentleman would hazard his reputation for has been authorized ad sanctioed by satute It intelligence, by resorting, to it here. Anw,;;,.haben aut o i e n acindb ttt,I i~ Why i~te issaibd theatavastt number of other vices 5i? the only offence against public morals, which particular ~hyiissai(that w do-not, nbrofo toh erp re- individuals have ever been authorized to commit f0r. v ail, about which we do-not propose to say one wdord-......aton ini thlis Conisti, utfon, and therefore we ought not todo' consideration...... in tis onsituton,andtherft~e w ougt nt t do This is a monstrosity which ought not to he tolerated any thing against the evils of intemperance. Tll1 oltoiywit uh o ob oeae ny thing against oth evils ofhintemperatIdid nce. for a moment. Tlhe effect of it is, to interpose a shied tMr. GREEN t Ross, (in his seat.) I did not'use between the licensed rum-seller, and the efforts.of the :that argument. Mr STANTON, I kniow the ge-ntlernan ftom Ross te-mperance refoimer, who is seeking to fix infamy and only alludedT O it incidentally. But the gentlemanfms ignominy upon it. The friends of temperanice ask that frol Auglaize, t(r. St nc,) dwelly. it o tn tn this may be taken away, and that they may have an fr~~~~~~~~~~~~~~om ulie:r a~, wl ni t egh pen field, and a fair fight, s .44,4 i OH110 CONVENTION ~ D-.E-BA 'Whilst the traffic is licensed and sancioned by law, or .espectahle nien will. not hesitate to engage in it'. Un-'wi :der existinig laws, the licenuse is a certificate of,'good. lan .moral character." This gives to it a standing and: in respectibility, which it could not get without It. th Atid:it is Your respectable liquor sellers, that' do the wh mniuchief. They make drunkards out of sober anid r-ech s"pectable men. Your low doggeris- only firis t a rh. o-ar ready-made drunkards.: It is a-t your ",upper ten": drink iog houses,,where your most respectable men are. sai iii the habit of taking" an.occasional glass, that yortr M -youg. men of high hopes, ai,d brighit prospects, first ni .acquire the -taste for, intoxicating liquors, which soo nd acquires absolute control over theni, and'sends them,! ix through vears of degradation;,.-and infariiy, andcrlme,! Pr ,to,a!drutnkard's grave..' n y an i n nb of dn d.... i had supposed all" this was Well understood, and that. er the only poiut of controversy was, Whether the evi as de resulting from the traffic coutd be best prevented' by it corifliutig it to:such'person s as it is supposed may:, be.R safely entrusted'with it. Bat: experience proves, that aC the license system does not exciude from the tra'ficp i those Wh- are least fit-'to be entrosted with it In proof of-, this, I will state a transaction, which I ain told', took pr place rot olne:hundred,miles froni here. i t it '~. Some'three or feoat years-ago the Sons of Temper tr ance:'had rai sed a'mechanic from a'drunkard's grave, anb and he had reformed, and was pursuing Ir is, bui.:ess n with diligence and industry for some eight or. nine pp i month t. Yo c f a r Hope and peace and comfort' were restored to his p once miserable home. On a Sunday afternoon he call ed in to a licensed grocery, Iet some:of his forier th companions, after much c axi'ng and bantering w about "signing away Mis liberty," he' was inluced to g i taste the "fforbidden fruit." ~His old appetite once's aroused, he of course lost all control of:himself, and.th was so'o dowin upon the floor in'a State of beastly in- I toxication. Remaining absent from home longer than isuat,l his'wife became uneasy aned went in search of bt Ifi-ml: ~Feartug the worst a'ndwing his old hau. ntIs, she: went to the grocery and found.him.. In the ex- w tremity of her agony and distress, she wept aloud and BC begged of the man of good'moral character," who pa kept the gr oery, not to sell. her husband'liquor. Madrth ,tai, saidh e,I have a license to sell liquor. and will sell it to him whenever he wants it; and: you must a leavge here immediately, as I carnot have your noise." .She redonbled her cries and entreaties; the noise drew a crowd to the door, a police officer caine'along and t demanded the cause of'the; disturbance. and was told s that the woman was making a noise and disturbance, e and could not be kept still. n He forthwith took her to the watch-house, kept'her i there all night, atnd the next morning she was taken ti before an oficer and fined one ddollar for disturbing tie ch public peace. I will:not vouch for the truth of this v statement, though I have it from reliable authority, yet I do hope for the honor of human nature hat it there may be some mistake about it. But any one can bear'witness to the repeated outrages upo{ri the peace of society, that daily occur from the licensed a trafficin ardentspirits. Cn it bh'o ladies of Bairnbridge, in Ross' county.'I dont like mutwk!pt hasbeto twl oe h o~i .much to interfere iii this difficulty between the gentle- dneo aaiu n elcignei nman from Ross,-'(Mr. Gar.ir,) and his coristihturis io tndsthecs,sI a el "as'o .but I'must take ~the liberty of endorsing fully the lqo'wtotlcne ei nitd n ie o statements contained in their petition. The gentle-lestafiedlas Heiaeninlithetin man: from Ross'dhinks that some of these -gentlemen to ftelw fteln.Yti o ayo who control this'temperance' movement, have'asked yu hrhswudi ujc i oCuc ~n ~tles:e ladies'for their siguatures, arid-the7, out ofsirsorecuehmfmteCmmno tale iheer kindness have signedt it.Thsi motetoriaysteothns.Th .,However thit, thahe petitoiion undertaeso i:tae n~aines o,f these la~di es3"to it. and'fIiA.t. ungmen'thc whooldy, htake ittlia-tv thed Io ad hadi'or-f aeeli gnce; th at the pv ry u ndewrstaiid. tand b ieaeit. uti ,ev ay., - And I undertake to sav.,' tliat~ thc~;,y.ta'te ht istre, when they sa y t at heclm' ] iiidren, Of Oh io, are, m.any of themi, in extrem ~vrtv aud w.retebed~ness,'caus ed by the. sale'.)f"-a-r n-spirits;: ad t-his.'the g~entlem~anl..undertake,4't i,i s not true."''...'.,,;,: Mr. GREEN,. of Ross, (in..is seat.). t sai:i;.' as ~kfn e~~n~equen. ceo aw....:,,.;:: Mr,STAN'TON..Bt. it;is inceneun,eoti,.!iaw: nd it. is on this account, and~for this, r e aold-potimJe rinicipie I raVe laid ~down, thaa~t yoIu. are mnak-ing~-a ually an immnense num~ber of dru nk a.rdso 50tb-tr oung rmen, who would have. livedloganhoirIe-ad usefulI lives, but. for the. licenise-s~ysim'.io takers'dlriniking respetabe, s o' far a1s la.vv, i' 6akie .rsectable.-''. -, [. 'M.GREEN, of Ross, (in Iris'seat.). A're.yo.;iv ngtp incorporate ino th ostituti~ an:'a4st/ie rohibitiln of-the: trafficS....;/ i Mr. STANTO'N.: The' gentlemiian asks me avery roper question, whether w, -e are willing~ to incorporate Cte te Costitu'tio n an",absolute prohibitsm Ol'of the raffie.,:anid the answer is, no. Arid the reason for this niswer is —,.:because IT do not believe the public senti.ent. will' sa'nctioni it, and!- would pass no law which ubic opinlionlwill riot. su'sta,ini'and aritoeeu noi: ~YoU-~cannot force a refiorniatib~n bi?;la~w Whic ib-ti~c opintion will not sustain. :But if the Conive~ntion should choose' to~ itncorpora:-e hs claus,e into'tbe Cons,-titu,Ltion, youi willtaeaa reiin.'thie'tra,ffiec the standing w~hi-ch lic~ense alone-ea''tl' ,ieit;; anda then, as t h e pb iciind!ad vancet-s,'- -t —h6;r Ihud be placed such retillios'upon' the tra-ffic~ ~as hepubl~ic goodmn-aylreqtuire..~..:. II supon ~the'sam-e:-princ~iple'ftlat. we lprohibit r ablng hrse racing, and. viola,ttion' oft g abt/ath, 'ecause th~e tendencies of' these pracie aeeil': I. am told, by theic gentleman fromi Auglai~e,,,(Mr. 3AwYrR,) that this matter'belongs to ils]hi!. 3ut. t.he trouble.is,, that the Church (Id thre Staite',.de raherTs', -and'the politicians, are bein,ird thie ~ag.~.,o his sul,-,ct. Etarhshed o r -rmz a io% oving aionlg, inI'Dn ~olDd nd-b'eaten track, are not often the first to realize: l 1-'opaga,-,te newly, developed. truiths,. A id -whi~lst I !cognjii?e the Christian Chiurch -,s the great coiase rvaor of civilization, and peace and order, )cet, -Otitha.ts sbj~ect it is, in my iiudgmnent, with a few,1honorabl'e xceptions, fallIing w;ofuflvw behind its dutyv,..'Ihav aever seen'a place where.,"in m-y opiniiin, ibis vdce of mt~emperane~e was -makingr such fearful -rav,q-,es:tiS in Ihis Same' city of Cincinmmt'i..!~ lha~ve entyo :hutchles, a-nd have heard, miost.excellenit ser-iansi -upJ(>I various theological qiiestioiis. IBut upon th is great, evil,' so far as I Iaelmard e I Ptulpit is,idumb and open,- not its muouth. Cani.it be ';hat-this — m-anmmn-wors~hipin,- generatio-n,: in::t~he Queen City of the West, is struck dunlab with'terr'or at,the mnagnitude of the ev.il?.,,i Can, it be'that the clergy 1ik e the'ox, lowvs. oniy:ffr r -' - r........... -.,Lt. J WiLl, t ~ ItlLUU5 Fl.,i1,,Y, Juanuarv 31st. 1851, press of the country. He was a nrali of greath worth Nirne (o'cllCk-, A. M. and of excellent abilities. He would therefore move fThe} Gonv(vitit1ioi itoet p1i-rsuaiit to( adjourninijeuit. tthiat the memeorial be r-ad at tile desk: M1r. SA;V.WYR i)'ove(l a (a all- of the Convention The itemnorial was tihei read, as fo,lows: and, after W~hic le)( itllr I(irder(tl lossitf. e ild>w5, A bold wrds, on mlotioll of the samne genritleman, laid on the which beh,'(m e -,M ss,s. Andtre~ws, Archbold,I Barbee, J.iril(!tt of reb e, Blair, Caset of Licking, tabl Chaite, Clla k, Clirr.-, (tilltr, l Ewr, (Green of Ross, To the C aiti l Corea Groesbt,ck, liatliltoil, -teiJdersmoi, Hfitchcock of Cuv- Tf t e Si Ce of Ohio. The undersited, a citizen of Ohio, respectfully petitions ahoga, H(,lt KilIg, 1 ece Leadbetter, Mason, your honorable body to miake all oath thakiug, unnecessary, Nash, N,rris, Otis, Peikiiis, teeimeliii, Riddle, Roll, under the new Constlitutiori. Afflx the saiiie penalties to Smith of Wyai(lott, StfaliX)ery, Stilwell, Stickniey, false witnessing, that you would to a false oath, and,equire Vlylane~l',t, a l cers to perforln their official duties as strictly without an Talylorl, Vaa.ic(,, W~ay anid Wilson)i, w~ere flutmid absenta Tayh as with it. In the place of en oath of allegiance, on the Oin motioi, Messrs. 3Smith of Wvaindot and Stick- part of liens. take the mere word of the applicant for nat. ney, were severally exc.ised. uralizatiorn. our petitioner believes that this course will teind to riake our citizens inore regardful of their word in the On motioni of Mr. BENNETT, aill further proceed- ordinary intercour se of life; as he las also believes that the ings utider the call were dispensed with. frequent requirement totake an oath, h,s a tenldency to do report Number one, of the committee or- Future oralize tle commlnity And your petitioner prays our Heavenly Father to bless amendments to the Constitution, was read the third you i n your labors for thenly Fater to bleslth time at the Secreta-v's desk. WWM. HENRV BRISBANE, The question theo being onl thle passage of the Re- Minister ot the Gostel ~~~~~~~~port,~~~~ ~ Cincinnati, 0., Jal. 2?, 185I. port, r ~Mr. LA SH deitanded a divisioi. Mr. SAW YER moved to take up 1ho Report of the 1 cmmtte, n iie Leisatie epattieit,which was Thle questioti then being on the passage of the fist committee tn tie Legislative Departiset wis h was eection, dfir.disagreed to. Mr. LARSH dematided the yeas and nays, which Oi ilotion of Mr. MANON, the Convention took up the Report of the select coi,mitlee. 01 tile sibject of' being ordered, resulted —yeas 60, nlays 1, as folows: up ts ' I ~~retutilinlg,.ardent spirits YEAs- essr.r A'-h ollo. Bauet (f'MAlitrnitiery. Bales le quso pendi big liebin o ilsertig before the B.'u l, w. t B owie of Caeisoil, Cal~il*, Casb of Hiksg. Caiae; JCVisis C, tIIII DIey Evi t word "Islay" i', the Report the following words: "No ]wi,tss. Far t, F.o:n,' *'{, F,,rles, Gi elt, Gray, Gr,Gi iOCt Der,-t licence to traffic iii ilntoxicatinig liquors shall lherealfter ai,'e, G "ag. Ht, a"r', takitis H,tilic(),k (f Gt Gaus be graisted iii tliis State, )ut the G.eneral Assembly." I~tlol~.:, H ~ll, EH~m'mai~, ttor,rt,,J R: l h,Flevil'e. Hilult, tiaa*de~r, itoluti z, ltotii~i H iiiiih C Hisir. 1 SAWYER nioved tto ameeind the aineid(mient by Leafl e~tii L Cl Lwdo'ii Mi.oli- M, I M l!ei.a h,,strikitjg out all atlier tle word "iState," anid inlserting iii McC null, M C illti, Nuasi, Nurris. O tioi, Patteson. 1(h. lieu tie following:'-Nor shall the Genterul Assenblly Pe,rkinis,i. Q,i iey Hiiii,elii-il,, R.t fe. Sai,'. oil o t Halrtt is1. ever prol1ibi u,-tli t rb fic. Scott af A,!'laize. Sel (~rs, St ilh -;'~arre~, S'anher, S'anton II b ~CliI'-. M ci COl iMICK la sbaid thLtt in order to place himS'tehbilis. St Ilwc,"i. Sti,e, Struhi Sw,an~. Swif't. Taylo"-. Ti.-o,,ip scii Of it lie'v, TlonTiIsolt of S, irk, Starw s'T, CI, Valce of self in a correct 1)ositic( in regard to the report, as C lasispai-al. ~Varn -ei, xv' iliiaisi, ~tViod1liry, gqy( ii s trlhingltoni alu well as to doi justice t o the endeavors of all absent Presidenit-81. inmemnbe'r o(f the cortlllitltte, he v ould endeavor to ex.N.~Ys —Mr. Larsl;-1-. ,~NA~y~s-Mr,. Larsf~-ti Iplain what thle coIntmiittee titil(erstood by the report. So the first SectioI wais passed. It wouv ld be rec(,Ilected by iiet(ibl)ers th.at dtirinig the The question then being on th e pof se- f(ore part (of thl( s'iSionll espiccially, tlhe ctnvention ond sectiolii, it was agreed to. - \was fl(io(ied wi th petitions pl)on tli(e stibiect'of retail The question then being on the passage of the third ilg splirituous liqulors. ThIse were at first referred to4) section, the coimmittee on jurisprudeince, butt the itiihlx er b(e Mr. CHRAMBERS demanded the yeas and ilays, came so great thait it was deeme(d advisable that a which being ordered, resulted-yeas 73, nrays 11, as special conmifittee sliiild be raised. to which they follows:' might be cruroittted. A mnoverneint for this purpo;se OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRI AY, JANUARY 31. was made, the committee raised, and himself appoint- no power to pass such laws as shall permit licenses to ed upon it-a distinction which he had not sought, be granted. Its effect will be to repeal all existing but whlich he did not feel himself at liberty to refuse. laws under which they may exist, anid it will place tavTo this committee had been referred the petitions of erm-keepers, and coffee-house-keepers, upon the same twenty thousand petitioners, soliciting the action of ground with men of othe, trades, leaving them to stand this body upon a subject of great importance, and or fall, according to th, force of popular opinion. whlich, all will admit, was one of extremne difficulty. In regard to the amendment which had been adopted, They were all the petitions of highly respectableper- he still believed it unnecessary. It makes use of more sons, many of them well known inrl the State, and con- words, to express fewer ideas. It is perfectly clear, taining different recommnendations; but within all that without it, the Legislature has no power to authis large numrnber of petitions, but one prayer-that thorize licenses the protection of law maay be taken away from the It is said, by geutlemen, that the phraseology of the business of retailing spirituous liquors, and that there report, is defective; that the Legislature, though denied nmay be no law lwhich shall, in any manniier, recognize the power to authorize the sale of spirituous liquols, or legalize the traffic. may confer upon some other body, the power to do so. lie had been all along doubtful if any thing could This is sayinig that the Legislature may do, by another be done, in this constitution. He had looked at what what it cannot of itself perform'. My colleague, [Mr. had been tried in other States, and was fearful that COLLINGS,l insists that such nmay be the case, and gives no provisions adopted by any would be of avail. He a divorce as one of i he instances. But it is very doubtthoughtthe best way would be to leave the whtole ful, indeed, whether, if the right to grant divrces nmatter to tbe Legi, atuje to triv valious wiays, in eioder were taken, by the constitution, from the Legislature, if possible to hit upon that which would be, at once that body rilighit constitutionaliy establish a tribunal easiest iii its operation, and most beneficial in its ef- with power to dissolve the marriage relation. The fects. But gentlemen would recollect that wlhen the courts of the State, exercise jurisdiction in such casesreport of the committee on the bill of rights was un- not in coisequence of any specific delegation of power der discussion, the gentleman from Trumbull had of- for that purpose-but by virtue of common law power, fered an amendment which covered not only the traffic which they have inherited. in ardent spirits, but all other trades and callings to I therefore, deny the right of the Legislature to do which the principle of especial license could be ap- this thing indirectly, and in this opinion, I am sustainplied. The vote upon that question attracted the ed bv the people of the State. If, then, sir, we adopt attention of' the conmmnittee. Its nmenmbers thought that this report, we shall provide, that i,. all coming time, if that ametidment passed, they might try to do some- ino license will be granted foi the retailing of ardent thing. They met again, three in niumber, with spirits; the traffic will be left free to all, and the trade initids somewihat changed from what they were before thrown open to be discussed, affected, estiirated, and They had examined the whole matter. They saw the put down by the effect of the moral power of the peo. objections that could and would be made to granting pie. the prayer of the petitioners. Still they thought some- Mr. TAYLOR desired to ask, if in the opinion of thingig might mightbedonetowardsgranting the prayers tile gentlentati tom Adams, [Mr. MCoaRMicK,] the of the petitioners. Legislature might, tinder this section, prohibit the The petitions, in effect, pray that the respectability, traffic in ardent spirits? thle legality tltat attends the sale of spirituous liquors, Mr. McCORMICK. I apprehend it would. The in coisequencee of its being protected and regulated by Legislature may provide against the evils resulting the law of the land, may be taken away, and that pub- th refrom. lic opinion inmay be left fiee to act upon it as upon any Mr. TAYLOR. Resulting? other folly-any other abuse, any other offence againlst Mr. McCURMICK. This would be construed to good titorals that exists in the land. extend to a prohibition. The limit and control of the Some of the petitioners, it is true, have gone much Legislature, will be as extensive, as the evils to be lim. further than this.'IThey have asked that the sale of ited and controlled; and they are very great. Thestaintoxicating driinks shall be entirely prohibited. The tistics of the State, show, that four-fifths of the crime committee could not, on mature deliberation, consent it the State, is the result of intemperance. The cost to go so far. of which, to the treasury of the State, is very great; The committee took the snbject into consideratiot,! while the misery cannot be estimated, the experiand deterritiLed at lengtlh to report an article prohibit- metit proposed-l,o:hose result, it is hoped, will go far to ing the General Assembly from passiinglaws, iii future, prevent this crime and misery-is a great one. The u tider which licenses should be granted. They took a cost to the State, and to corporations, will be the loss of different view of the subject from that taken by many the revenue accruing from the sale of licenses. The of the petitioners, who say that the effect of regulations question to be settled, is whether the experiment will hitherto has been to license an evil The question be worth the cost of the trial. I have my doubts as to really is, hleave we a right to regulate an evil'hat exists the power of moral opinion upon this subject. I have without our permission. It is the use of intoxicating great doubts, whether there is not even now, an under drinks that is the evil-not the license. The license current of popular sentiment, that upholds the use of lews, may not be the proper means to regulate and re- ard,nit spirits; and I fear the results of any plan, that strain the evil; but they do not create it. Theyarethe may have the effect of catching only the smaller fish, effect of its existence, not the cause. while the larger ones escape the net. I doubt if there But the question is, what is to be doine? The peti- are not sonei-even ladies-who are forward in this tioners say cease to legalize the traffic-take away its temperance movement, who did not, on) the first day of sanction, its protection, its legal respectability-tthrow this year. keep open house, and place intoxicating it open to competition-throw it open, at the same d-inks, in temptitig positions, to encourage the guests time, to the attacks of public sentitnent. We thought who called, to drink. I have seen too much of this this might be done, and that while saying that, in future, hypocrisy-not only in politics, and the Legislatureno licenses shall ever be granted, we might leave it to but in the church, and by the fire-side. I doubt the the legislature, to do what itcolnd to mitigate the evils effect of this kind of public efinion. I ooubt its effect resulting from intemperance. According to the pro- in the church, and in matters connected with the pubs visions of the report, the General Assembly shall iu lie morals. There is too much hypocrisy and infi 447 should comre to believe restriiction, prohlibiti(n, tie on ly remedy against thel giant vice of inteniperal-uce. tl'es friends of temperance. never said that they didll lot, whet public opilliil - was sufficiently enlighteltied harnd prepared for it, walit laws of repression. Bur nmeantime, th)ey do ask that the law shall not give re sptectability aud character to this traffic by clothintg it withl-its sanction. All that was asked, was that the. license should b e Ebrogated, and theni atn afppeal to p)ub. li-e intelillgence would'accotn-plish the rest; alnd legislia tion thlenl-r )ust, and sh'loljd be left free to act in- What*' oLvervway should be dee/rmed bst adapted to eradicate' thle evils. Tie geittlitana is therefore mistalkeit ill Dv t r o. f'en" saying th6e fr,iendsol tperance did tot d, sign, did not wish that legislation shlould be left. free to act as a matured judgnieint mlfIht advise. If the grand inqoest of the nation shall decide that thlis'traffic is an evil and;' only evil continually, the, shoiuld society be left free to deal with- this evil as3it deals with other evits destruc tive of public morals a,d prosperity; restraiii it, aid if' need be, prohibit it by sound atid wholesome legista tion. - - -; And the gentlerman is equally mistaken upon ano ther point. In his (AMr. SAwvYEt's,) remarks on yester-, day, he seemed to suppose that this article was to in tet fer d- writ] onle's -per';6nal liberty. The article pro posess no such thing. It leaves every individual free tok follow his own views of propriety,'to dritnk or not to drinfn r as each mnay choose.'o6r is it openl to the kefcharge of the getletlani fr om I- osS, (Mr. GrL.,) who HseeC d to suppose that the object was to throw the ptraffic open to all without any law of protection agaiinst its licentiousness. The first part of the article, aiid: the only operative portion of it, simpl.y declares thaIt all power to license the traffic in intoxicating liquors' .shai be at an enld. It simply puts an end to youir license.system; that istS wAtiole effect. It, however, in its second clause, distincty iftiinates that the' evies: of int.emperance, the evils growing out'of this traftc in intoxicating liquors, are fit subjects for repressive legislation. Whiat this repressive legislatiot shall be, is wisely enitrusted to the General Assem'bly. This latter clause is a mnere declaration of a powe-'r already t''vested in the Gencr-l Assembly. It has tire entire power, withou't this clause, of passing all laws tiee,sIaty to put down such evils. As a grant of power' theiefore, itf is of no value; whetiher retained or not, tthe powers of legislation fare the same. But as a declaration of the people of Oh,o, that such legisla prevail. He thought thee report a Jaru'S -faeed thiog,b ou6k i gboth ways. If we adopt oilIe'side, we get fore thane twelve legions o f liquor sellers t o votde against this constitutiaon. If' we t e tak e the other, a more -lnunerOous host is arraved agaiostf it.'Now we shalo l thave hard work enough to get the-constitution -passe(] by the peo ple, if we keep all extraneous matter ou-t of it. 1 iere' is no use in putttinig a foreign. m.;l stolle upon it, to weigh it downl. Gentilletnern say, liowever,. that thlese things rnust go itto the constitution. Wly? Becaue tlie: Legislature will n'ot'ct upon them. Wily l,-o? Ifthe:LLegislature: wll' not act, it Is becaus,e pitbic' opiiiiont does'not act Upon it. Of all the bo-dies in the; world, a legislative body is the most obsequious -most. se-rvile to pop~ular opinion. "M~r. MANON felt inclined to go for the- report'een though it had seveni or nainie faces. Ile did IJot feel ac countable to-respond to the views of the pe op-[le of tlie Stale; it was enough for him to comply wilh tle wishes of his constituents. Tho temperat!ce rm-en of the State want it, and he was disposed to gratify them. Th.e liquor sellers say it suits them, aid he was willing to gratify thenm also. He went for free trade and Sailor, rights; and he had.not heard a siuigl, ind ivdua.l bf any. cliass who objected to tle report. On tihe conitrary all seemed ini favor of it,: and each thoag~lit it the very best. that- could be d(vised. Temperance metn said —: take away tlhe respectability of the trtffic —give Us ai clar. field and a fair fight. He knew some gentlemen who were afraid of pu~bli~ opirnion. The gentlernmn from Auglaize,[ Mr. S,&wy,.R,.] seens.afraid of lubtic opinion. He walts tt pr,,ohibit: the Legislature from putting a stop to the sale of ardent! sp~i~rits,:-when- the people shiall require it. Plublic opil-' io, sheouid in. general govern, and-when W ell s etled,.i t: is i:variabty:'right..: -.' Mr. LIDEY inquired if it would be i-n, order to offer.. an n: anemlmn ~t.,.. :'The PRESIDENT said that it was, not. The gentle. mau could read his amendment for the information' of tlite convention. It might affect the vote upon the present. amendment. ..Mr. LIDEY read his.amendment,: which -ws in the;form of —: a substitute for the entire report; as follows. 'PRTA 13LE. II-ERE Ill becoane evident to tl)e tylitiff Of'iteirfi all tile' il6nil"&rs 6f thig Colistitutional Cut,A,elitit,lkl. Lha, Ila Ikilid live a decided appetite fo,,, A L OHIO CONVENTION: DEBATF' — F p-RIt,[v, JANUARY 31. tion is called for, ought to be resorted to to'- eradicate: the evils incident to the traffic in and use of intoxicating liquors; as such an authoritative declaration of the people, it is prospectively of vast import. It wil be respectfully listened to; and the friends of tem.n perance can appeal to it as conclusive evidence itiis support of appropriate laws, looking to the extirpation;of these giant exils. Such, then, is the proposition of the committee: 1st, it prohibits the enactment of laws licensing this traffic; 2d, a declaration mierely that'to provide against the evils incident to this traffic, is a fit subject for legislation. Nlow comes the amendment of the gentleman fromrAuglaize, (Mr. SAWYEr.,) and prohibits the General; Assembly from restraining or prohibiting the traffic. This is a very comnprehensive amendmnent, and if adopted would involve very ominous consequences s It would deprive the General Assembly of all power of restraint, and throw the traffic open to unlicensed freedom, and deprive society of all power of self-protection, and self-preservation. This, certainly, is notdesirable. But it was said by the gentleman. from Hamilton, [Mr. Rr.rMELIN,] that this traffic is a rightful traffic, and therefore should never be restrainiied —never be prohibited. This amendment does involve this question-'the right or wrong of the traffic in intoxicatingp,, liquors.. If the traffic be right, then let it continue; but if it is wrong, then the amendment is wrong, antl the power of prohibition should remain in the General Assembly, to be exercised as public opinion and the public good may require. Is t his t raffic r ight? Is it a trafic calculated to ad — van c e t meaate ria e interests alntd -elevate the intellectual tand moral character of society? Before undertaking t o answer these inquiries, permit me to interpose a c o n s u m r S u c h r i s bt h t r d o r I r f i c i n te a t rp e a, i a l g o e n e t t e o n t h n n e d u t o b c a e preliminary i nquiry, but one intimately interwoven with it, alod it is this: What is, the nature of this traffic?. To answer this, we must inquire into the character of the subject of this traffic-intoxicating liquors. uotw, a-trade may be beneficial to'the commusnityn or thereversei Whe ther useful or not, depeinds upo the naturge of the merchandize -itself. C(ertain articles; are necessary to the support of human life, and must be passed from- the hands of the producer to those of the~o-nlurner. Such is the trade or traffic in wheat, bread, meat, clothing, and - other articles of similar necessity. These trades, this traffic, should n1ever be discouraged, but.: encouraged. ~ But there are other t rades,'traffic in other articles which ietd to the injury of society. Every traffic, Which demoralizes socitey, arid those engaged in it.likes' th'e_keep'ng of gaming hlous'es,the, slave trade, &c., sh:r ld not receive public sealction; but, if-legislation regard them stall, it should act as a restraint, as a prohibition. A nother class of traffic, without in creasing public wealth, caters to social vanity ad ministers to mere outwalrd show,; yet as it does not de grade socittv and its nioratls; it mi-ay be left to the ju'dgment-of an advancing intelligence.. ~ Now to which of these classektoes the traffic in in-: t6kica-iig liquors pertain? Illthe first place, the ar tict'e of:traffic iS valueless.: It is an article neither of food or of. nourishment; it wil-l neither'clothe or shelter its purchasers. The buyer gets no0 val ue, for his monley, Nay more. Wealthias destroyed; Good' is destroyed to produce thiis ~ alueless article, of trade.'The corn, out of which it is made, will support life-, ere it is subjected to the baneful process ofdilstillation.: The traffic is -a traffic to'destroy wealth; to chanlge value into no value, to eonvrert -what God dlesignled] fas food for his creatures hito that which is not food. It Cannot require argu mealt at this day to prove these assertions.' All science' speaks but one voic oo n thie s subject; and its echo is t r hoi o at illtoxicatingl'drinks are useless to man; nutiliecessary to, him as a beverage. To eycour age tS. sl tratfic thereaore is to encourage the tiesttucti(,ic it of,alioual wealth, of the products of labor, of the capital of the country., Is it desi o trab le to nh ourage such atrafic? But this article i s not only vpluyeless; but its coIinsumption becomes an active cause of crismea and pauperism and thatato a fearful extent; beyonid indeed any other sigle cause. Drunketnness i s i ts o wn handy, work. Hence'it destroys the la bor of a country; labor, without which capital and wealth cannot be created,. and civilization advance d. Hence this traffic operates. With at tw fold power upon society; first, by destroyingt the capital a nd food already produced; am nd secoindiv by destroying the labor necessary to tcheir production, Noor. ris tliist destruction of' wealt h and labor a small item in'st thecapital of a countrvh-a ld therefore to be disr Lega rded by' tie legislator and the statesman. As a questioi of economy alone, it is o ne ianvolving a loss of millions upon maillions even i n this State a'oJeo The a mountr each year wasted i n this iway, in Ohio, would in four years pay off our State debt, and make all the railroads. and ioproovements i neehed oin this great Statu Is it hnot then an object worthy of legoislatioll? Ought legislaotion to encourage a traffic, which tius dries up the capb itali of tihe State? Which thus annually idetroys thee poor man's food, and ruinst "IhIe consulner's hiealth? Society then has no interest is a tlie contrinuance of t his traffic; since it destroys, intstead o f pr oducing wealth, paralyz, s, instead of nourishing labor..: Political economy, then will demand the annihilation of such a traffic. But t he influence -of th e traffiC does not st op here. The tmeo eng aged in i t a re min is ters of demoralizatioov. tThe, use oA iltoxiciting drinksc u not only paralyzes labor; it saf s pu~blic nmorals, engen,. ders crimne, peoples poor-liotises and jails; ossifies the heart and petrifies the feeltigs. It becomes the source. of much of our pauper aid crimitinal expenses, and produces woes and miseries which no line and plumb is long and heavy enough to sound and measure. - What, therefore, ought to be done. Shall the states man and legislator sit in iniaction, while such a traffic is devouring the wealth, pa:alyzinig the industry, and corrupting the morals of society? Are the morals of society a matter of no moment? Rather are they not ill all governments the one thing needful to be cared, for'? Can society remaiin organized, and its- progress continue onward, if its morals are undermined and de graded? Above all, can a government, resting upon-, the popular will, like ours, last a day after public vir tue has become extinct? Education and morality, ill experience showes thiat of one8 hunldred who) indulge ill tihis luxury, a portitn at least will certainly become drunk ards? In that holy book, used as an a uthority by the gentleman from Auglaize, ( Mr Sawy F:R,) there fis found a prayer dictated by Truth hlimself and in that prayer is this petition, lead us ~ot itot ternp tation. If we are to pray not to be led into tempta }i,, tieii rjosl certainly it is a sin iti one to walk; volunit-I. rily into the jaws of temptation —And what but plunjg iig recklessly into temptation is this practice of tern. perate drinking? Can it then be right? Is it the way in whi c h a Chris tian would seek to perfect himsel f is A.lie way of truth and righteousnese Is it the way to clear tile intellect, and pnirify the head'! Does experi ence show us aino)g these men, tile most shining o -x jamSples of virtue and godliness? I appea l to- exp eri elice for an aispet-antid that answe r ca,t Ie but ote wa,f; and it declares thlat temJperate drinkilg is Ity thing but a righteohs and christian vocation; a voec tion, arhi hli the man, who aspires to become likte has Father ifi Ise a a e ves, ca ever colscient iously enrgag e. But let Lis look at thi s subj,ct in another poiint of view. Drunkenness being admitted a sin, it bec otife tgleo duty of a ll, according to that authority, which is authority, to labor to extirpate this sin. Gol requires this of us adl; even inait's morality does not require less. vVeepilng hjumijanity calls for our ifauelnce;atd exertions to extirpate from soc iety this giant evil, tthis deep-dyed sin. To discharge this duty, we must.1ll hmake use of tle means placed with in our power for this holy purpose. Two remedies, and two only, haver been proposed for thie removal of ti giganttic evil andf andmiitted sin; and these are:-1st. Tew utperate drinking. 2nd. Total abstinence by all, front all tloat can initoxi cate. If either of these remedies is adequate to re'nove the sin and its evils, ought not every good man to adopt it at once? Can he refuse to adopt it without lending hisexarnple and influence and practice to tlhe perpetuation of thfesiin? Is temperate drinking this reseedy? If all continue to drink, temperately, will drunkenness cease? Now, whatever theory may affirm, we do know, as a fact, that drunken tiess is lhe child of temperate drink i-g. It has been tried for fivehunidred years, and drunkenness lhas never ceased, but gone on increasing and extend ing its ravages, and multi)lying, its victinms, until fear and trembling have seized hold of society; and the cry of despair went up from the whole land, like the wailings of despair. Is it safe, then longer to continue this reti, edy for drunkelnness? Longer to reason witi lltmen of righteousness, temperance and a ju(gmiien,it to come while their lips are still wiet with the fatal mixture? The other rene(iy is total abstinence. Now,, it requires no argument to demonstrate that this remedy is ade quate to the removal of the sin and its evils. If DO one ever touched the deceitful cup, ever moistened his lips with the bewitching inixtu re,ti.eni drunkenness nust die out, as certainly as the rattle-saa,e ceases to be dan gerous when his fangs are extracted, just as certainly as the stream ceases to flow when the fountains that feed it are dried up, just as certainly as the effect will disappear, when the cause is removed. Cause and ef fect are not more certainly allied thani ten perate drink ilvg and drurnkenness. Such being thie case, I ask are we rot all bound to adopt this remedy? and not only to adopt it ourselves but to urge upon others the adoption of it? Can we sit down and fold our hands in iniactioIn, while sin is walliing around us in broad day light? And what is one man's dJuty is thle duty of all. Is it possible that wfe call suppose ourselves clear front guilt, wllilerefus .ing todo treat, which alone caln do away with a sill, ansd remove the varied evils flowing therefrom? Can lwe remonstrate with the drunkard with ally hope ott >sEuccess, whl-ile engaged in lh1e very i~racti'e' whmh tiaa'.S brought him low where he lies? 'But I amn told, that every maln moust answer for his .own1 conlduct; and, if men will violates Ihe laws of ntemperance, why, let them look to it. Does such a view of duty find any sanction in that book of books,n 450 OHIO CONVENrTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 31. cited by the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAWYER.)? There we are commnanded to work for the salvation of a world. Men are indeed responsible for their own conduct; not for the conduct of others. But our du ty is not wholly pertormed, when we hlave healed our selves; we are commanded to teach, and instruct, and labor to bring others into a perception of the truth and an obedience to it. He that converts a soul from the error of his ways shall not onl3 save a soul, but hide a multitude of sils. We are then bound to save the drunkard from his vices and sin; and to do this we must ourselves pursue the course we urge on him-to te talabstinence. This appears to my mind the truth, clear as the sunshine; a truth, I would to God, all oth er mindscould perceive-then would this fearful plague be stayed in all the land. I pray gentlemen not to turn from the truth; but to take it inlo their minds, and earnestly inquire, if it does not also commend itself to their sober judgment. Having thus endeavored to demonstrate that total ab stinence %as the clear path of duty, how does this proposition affect the traffic in intoxicating liquors? If it is a sin for me to drink, it must be equally a sin in another to offer or furnish me with this drink. We have only to apply the old doctrine of accomplices, and the question is settled. The adviser of a theft and the receiver of the stolen goods, are equally guilty with the thief himself; are so considered by the law of God and man-certainly then, the man, who gives me poi son, knowing the use I intend to-put it to, is as crim iiial as myself-so must he be, whose business it is to make money by affording facilities for me to commit sin. This argument does not, however, stop here; it in ludes,under its condemnation,every one who deals in he forbidden merchandize, from the retailer up to the manufacturer. Traffic is only a means of passing the article from the producer to the consumer. And, if the consumer is guilty, then imust every one be, who knowingly is engaged in supplying him with the forbidden article. And all engaged in this trade know the article is made to be consumed by nien. This fact stares every one in the face, and cainnot be argued down. Were it not drank, the trade, save for medicine and the arts, would decrease, and shrink into the dimensions of the drug shop, instead, as now, of filling huge warehouses in all our towns and cities. I therefore appeal to all dealers in it to answer to their own consciences, if they are engaged in a work of love-a work which they can ask God to bless and enlarge? What would this be but to pray God to increase drunkenness and crime, which flow from the use of this deadly poison? Let merchants and rnanufacturers turn this subject over in their minds, with an anxious desire to learn the truth, and do it. The fact that others will engage in it, if you do not, can never justify you in doing a moral wrong. It is an argument that can never satisfy the judgment and the conscience. Having thus endeavored to demonstrate the immorality of this traffic, I now return to the proposition of the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAwYER.) His amendment is that this traffic shall never be prohibited, whatever may be the state of public opition. If the traffic is immoral, prejudicial to public morals l and the public welfare, ought it not to be prohibited, so far as to protect society fromn its evils? This, however, no one would wish to see done, unless public opinion called for it. That it should be left open for legislation, is very clear to my mind-left to be dealt with as an enlightened and purified public opinion may deem best. I presume there can be little conflict of opinion on this point, and I shall, therefore, pass it over. The objection to the license law is, that it gives a kind of legal sanction to a traffic that ought not to be encouraged; and what the law sanctions is, with many, their standard of right. One can, therefore, hardly assail one as engaged in a wrong who is acting under a license paid for and sanctioned by law. Men are slow t o believe th at law would license a wicked or sinful trade or business. Nor should law ever countenance wrong or immo ra lity. It should restrain, or do nothing. It sho uld never come in contradiction with the law of God; it sh ould follow that higher law, or remain silent. Nor is this all. This system renders the traffic rofitable, by securing it to a few and excluding all P,.t Is, I others. It s, i fact, an odious monopoly. Now if the traffic is left free to all, competition will bring down profits, until no respectable man with capital will engage in it. As it now is, it is the, most lucrative business one can follow; and, hence, men who are eager for money, and whom nlothing but high, profits could tempt, are drawn into it. Now leis. Intion ought always to act in aid of useful trades, anid in discouragement of those which are injurious. This species of legislation seems to me to act the other way, to the encouragement and not to the discouiramerit of a trade highly detrimental to the public wifare. again, it organizes a large body of men, and makes it for their interest to enlarge this traffic; to encourage others in doing that, which the public welfare requires them not to do. I do not think this is correct legislation. Besides all this, we know, that these houses are the hiding places of other, and deeper crilnes and vices; vices which the law has declared crimes. It is idle to disguise the truth, that such is the natural alliance between crime and intoxicating liquors, that the good moral character required by the law, is no protection against this union. Here we know men are inveigled on to infamy, dis-. grace and ruin. Ought law to lend its sanctions to a traffic, which necessarily carries with it, such fearful abuses? I think not. But it is said, that the General Assembly has power to do all this. Grant it; and yet, if such legislation is now, and ever must be wrong, it can do no hurt to put this prohibition,in the constitution. If such laws are wrong on principle, then they never ought to be passed; and it can do no hurt to say so. But I believe it will do good. A little piece of history, illustrative of its utility now occurs to my mind. Some years since, a law was passed, repealing so much of every town and city charter, as empowered either, to grant licenses for the sale of intoxicating liquors. This was Considered, over the whole State, as most wholesome legislation. And yet, at the very next session, a law was carried through, restoring this mischievous power to the authorities of Cincinnati; and she has retained it ever Now, I have been told, that Cincinnati is derivin, revenue of $25,000 from her fifteen hundred.coff 30 I 451 The proposition' of the committee is of a more doubtful expediency. It is a question not free from difficulties. The committee propose that no license for the traffic in intoxicating liq'uors shall hereafter be granted. If this is inserted in the Constitution,, the law will, until altered, prohibit the sale of intoxicating liquors, by the less q'uantity than a qiiart. This is now practically the law in all counties, Where the courts refuse to grant a tavern license with authority to retail intoxication. In several counties in my portion of the State, such has been the state of things for years; and I celieve it has done good, and will continue to do good so long as it is persevered in. 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 31. house license. Here is apowerful inducement for tax- clamoring for freedom, they are secretly plotting to payers to wink at this system; to endure it; to approve concoct an article in this Constitution that should put of it. A constitutional provision, will remove this it in the power of the Legislature to put a stop to the temptation, by declaring that the traffic, if it exists, shall sale of ardent spirits in the State and to give it such be free.'This being the law, you can rally society a construction as to render action Oe this kind imto the destruction of this most deadly evil. perative upon the General Assembly. This clause will have another good effect. It will Mr. McCORMICK. Will the gentleman say who be a declaration of the people, against a system, which it was that gave such a construction to the article? encouraged a wrong, and in favor of the passage of Mr. REEMELIN. I have listened to the gentlelaws in restraint of the evils, which grow out of this man from Loganr, IMr. STANTON,] and I have listened traffic in intoxication. This will do a blessed work: to the gentleman from Morgan, [Mr. HAWKINS.] exert a commanding influence upon all future legisla- Mr. STANTON. The gentlemnan misiunderstood tion. me, if hlie supposed me giving it any such construc For these reasons, I have made up my mind that it tion. is best to insert this clause in the constitution Mr. McCORMICK. All I havetosav is that I will Nor do I believe, that it will jeopardize the adoption lay the Report of the committee before him and he of the constitution. It merely declares, that the trade can read it for himself. shall be free to all, so far as it is permitted to exist. Mr. REEMELIN. I will read the Report as it is What objection can any have to this? Surely, iot not very long. The General Assembly shall inot authe coffee house keeper, who is relieved from the pay- thorize the licensinlg of the traffic in intoxicating ment of his license. I believe, on the contrary, that it liquors. Here is the first proposition. It contains will secure votes to the constitution. The friends of an admission on the part of the tenmperance men that temperance-and their name is legioni-will rally as all their mnovements heretofore have been wrong; and one man, to its support, if it contains so salutary a pro- that they now say to the( Legislature, "hands off" — vision. and we will deal with the rumn seller by the force of I have thus, Mr. President, endeavored to present public opinion. the principles, upon which my action here 1must be Then follows the remiaining proposition of the regoverned; and may I nlot hope, that what I have said, port —'but may by law provide against the evils rewill derive from the place and the occasioni, a power to sult;ing theref'rom." Now I would ask, what law of influence other minds, and contribute, in some small any other State iii the Uniion —what fifteen gallon lawv degree, to the formation of a correct public sentiment, or five galloii law, or what other restriction could not on this all important subject; a subject, in its relation be passed and receive official sauction, in the State of to legislation, full cf difficulties, anid also, full of pronri- Ohio, under this clause of the article? We have been ise. I would look on this great people, growing in repeatedly told that all the frier:ds ot temperance ask, intelligence; in virtue; and in religion; and then I is a free field and a fair fight, ard that their trust is would depart in hope; knowing that such a people in the public opinion. But wbhen we are readv to give could never be otherwise than great, and prosperous, them free scope with that public opinion, they then and happy. Sir, I have done. turn round and set themselves at work to estabish a Mr. REEMELIN had listened with some attention system of restriction, more stringent than ever be to thegentleman from Gallia, [Mr. NASH.] If he un- fore was attempted. The amendment of the gentlederstood him correctly, he was opposed to the ins man from Auglaize, (Mr SAWYER,) will make the retion of the amendment of the gentleman from Au- port precisely what all claim it should be. It takes glaize, [Mr. SAWY.] That proposition is that the awmay the license and the prohibition, and if it is to Legislature shall have no power to prohibit the sale be voted down, it will show the covert design not to of intoxicating liquors. Is the gentleman from Galli rely upon popular opinion but to call upon the stroing ~~~~~opposed to this? arm of the law to help them, in their uioveme(nts. All Mr. NASH said he was opposed to the amendment. I ask is, thatthere shall be no license, no special privHe wished to leave the whole matter to be arranged ilege, nor will I sanction aly special restriction in by the Legislature, as public sentiment shall dictate. reference to this particuliar irae I fact the whole Mir. REEMELIN. The gentleman will then vote question may be narrowed down to this' Shall the people regulate the government, or the government against the amendment, and for the Report, in case it people regulate the gover?meut or the peovernme ot is not adopted. He had heard from the gentleman egulate the people? Shall the popl tae care of reuaetheiow penopale orshall they bepe taken care of? from Gallia, [Mr. NASHI,] alecture stuffed full of ideas, their own morals, or shall they be taken care of? and principles, which were favorites of the Kings and The time was when but few me daed to say that Aristocrats of Europe. We find thus, that the gen- religion ought to be left to take care of itself, without tleman from Gallia, [Mr. NASH,] need not hereafter being set downtre a n idiot or an atheist. Now lecture him on the subject of importing ideas from, lecture buln on the subject of importing ideas from | the thing has been tried, and it has been found that it Europe. The gentleman himself was a wholesale can take better care of itself than governient can; and importer. Those who are opposed to the amend- if religion must be content with a fair fielid, why not ment of the gentleman from Auglaize, [Mr. SAWYER,] this temperance iriovemeut, which is but one of the vir ruies inculcated by religion. talk about leaving the whole matter to the people.- tIes iwaulcated t by religion. All they pretend to ask is a fair fight and a clear field. I have watched the tempera nce movement closely, They say that the friends of temperance ask only, from its beginning, through all its history, and have "hands off-let us alone." Why then object to and ever found that when it attempted to use the law i reoppose the amendment, because it proposes to provide straint of the liberties of the people, it failed; but whet that the Legislature shall not interfere to sanction or it would trust to the moral feelings of the people, then prohibit the sale of ardent spirits. This shows me it gathered strength. that they are for interfering too, at least, when called I watched this movement, because I wanted to see upon to give that fair field which theyclamor for, they how a free people would treat such a question, and then back out, and ask us to vote for theirjanus-faced whether they were worthy of the freedorm they enjoyproposition. Theywant freedom on their side, secured ed; and the conviction was forced upon my mind, that by constitutional provision, but their second pro- the free course was the true one —that the people could position leaves the door open so as to secure restric- be trusted with their liberties, and that to the quiet action hereafter on the other side. While they are4tion of the popular sentimeut was not only the tiue 452 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 31. 453 place to leave this question, but that it was the very Mr. MORRIS desired to place himself right before place where the people were deterniuned it should be his constituents. The evils of intemperance were nuleft. Let the temrperaice ni.en lake away the custom- mi.ereus as those of Pandora's box. The sword had ers from the rum-seller, and afterwards the rum-seller slain its thousands, but drunkenness its ten thousands. will take himself away. He thought the petitions en the subject entitled to se Liquor is a great evil. There is nothing that de- rious consideration, aud that the Convention ought, at stroys both the intellectual. moral, and physical force, least, to take a vote upon the naked proposition they of man quicker, than it will. I hope to see the day contain. when it shall be banished from the land. I hope to see Mr. COLLINGS had not been in favor of putting the day also, when no citizoeI of Ohio will sit down to anything upon the subject in the organic law of the his table without a bottle of wine by his side, to cheer State. lIe preferred to leave the matter to the Legishis heart, and lighten tie labors of the day. Wine civ-!ature. If the Convention should do wrong, it could ilizes, but liquor brutalizes mankind. Every nation not be easily corrected. If the Legislature make a has its beverage, and the effect of that beverage may falsestep, it is easily retraced. be seen, to a great extent, in the national character, The question then being on Mr. SAwYER'S amendmniodified as itmay be by cli..ate. The Turk has hils melt, opium, the Spaniard, Italian, Hungarian, and the Mr. THOMPSON, of Shelby, moved to lay the ReSouthern German their winie, the Irish and Scotch their port and pending ameneidments on the table. whiskv; and the Englishman his beer. On which motion, MIr. WILLIAMS demanded the Mr.'STANTON. Does the gentlemanl call opium a yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted-yeas 20, beverage? I nays 70, as follows: Mr. REEMELIN. It is not used exactly as a bev- YE.ts —-Messrs. Ewving, Florence, Henderson. Hitchcock of erage, yet tihe Turks have a drink in which opium is Geauga, Holt, Hoiton, Kennon, Kirkwood, Patterson, Peck, infused. Itanney, Sawyer, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Taylor, Thomp. The gentleman from Gallia, his inlqtuired if there wao son of Shelby, Vance, Warren and President-20, TheteamG,.s NAYS-Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, a man who made the sale of liquors his trade, whls Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown could go upon his knees and ask his Maker to bless his of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking. Chambers, Collings, trade. He had knowni as good, as pious as charitable, Cook. Curry, Doisey, Ewart, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Ham. as noble-hiearted and public spirited riien in that busi- iltor, Hard Ha rlan, Hawkins Holmes, Hooman, Hum. ness as any other. He would in return ask the gen- phrevlle, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, King, Larsh, Lartiemran, if he, when ihe was a Director or Attorney for will, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Manon, Mason, the Bank of GCalipolis, was so satisfied of the honesty Mitchell Foiead Mors MeCloud, McCorieick Nash, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash,' co ethe,, Blsnk of hellipolls was so.orris. Orton, Otis, Perkins, Quigley. Reemelin, Riddle, of his calling, that he could invoke the blessing f Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Selleis. Smith ven upon it. It is, in my opinion, just as preposterous of Highland, Smi-th of Warren. Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, for a paper rmoney batik director to ask a blessing u pon Struble Tonipson of Stark Williams and Woodbury7O hiis busiiess, as it could be, in the opinion of the gentle- So the rotion to lav oii the table was disagreed to. man froim Gallia, for a tavern-keeper. Mr. QUIGLEY nmoved to re-commit the Report to The true doctrine is, to suffer all trades to'be as free the Select Comimittee on the subject of retailing ardent as thie winds, subject only to the action of the free and spirits, with iiinstructions to strike out the word "may," enlightened sentinmeut of a free people. and insert in lieu thereof the word "shall;" and also, Mr. LOUIT)ON felt it his duty to endeavor to bring that the Coimittee be instructed to provide, that the this debate to a close. He therefore demanided the pre- section may be submitted to a direct and separate vote vious queslion; upoin which, of the people, with the full understanding, that if a Mr. ARCHBhOLD demanded the yeas and noes, nimajority of tthe electors approve it, then it shall be which were ordered, and resulted, ayes 42, nays 49, as coiiie a part of the Constitution, and vice versa. follows: A d:vision beilg demanded, Yz:s-3L(ssrs. Archbold, Beninett, Blair, B;ickensderfer, Ca- T'he question then being on re-committing the Re hil, Case of Hockiing, Coo)k, Dorsel. Farr, Fo,)rbes. Gllett, port; it was disagreed to. G e.Lne of Defiance, Hard, Henderson, Hootimiaii, Huniphreville, The question then being on Mr. SAWYER's amend. Hunter, Joies, i, Ki Krkwood, Ldv Londoti, Mason, Mitcl- h e. (atorll Ois Patterson, P; ck, Pertiis, Rainey, Ri,(ddle, ment to the aiiendnent, P,'l Saw; e, S: ott of Har riso, Scoti ot Augflaize Sele s, Ste) Pending which, bills, Struihle, Swift, Townshtind, A7oo;I,ucy ad Pesident-4;) O motil of Mr. WILLIAMS, the Convention NAYS-Messis. Bea nlet of Moiitocllery, Baies, B-own of tool a recess. Athe.s, B-owic of Carr-oll. Clablei's, Colii,:, Cur ry, Ewat a rees iEwing, Florence, G ay, Green of Ross, G egg, G' ocs'!eck Harlan, Hawkciis H;?,- h-c-k of G;aula, Hilmine-, H!t. Hr- AFTERNOON SESSION. Ioe, Hu,c Ji- lcisoc, Keniiio), Latsi', Lr wi", eeciMo, Mi;orehead, Morris Mi Cloud, MM Ccr, i k, Nash, Norris, Qui- 3 O'CLOCK, p. M. ley Reeye,in. Smith of Hight~lanld, Smiitfh ot Warretn, Sta,lhii..ry, SI,t...Stiweli, Sic.hoer S,va, T la)c, ScTh,ib psoi of' Shiel,y The question pendirg being on agreeing to the Tcoiocci'.c of Start, Vacie t' CWcaipaigic, Warren, Willia.iis amendment of Mr. SAWYER. ansd Warthifiniton —49. ] Mr. LARWILL moved a call ofthe Convention, and So the Couvention refused to order the previous beiing ordered, Messrs Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, qutestiou. Barnett of Preble, Case of Licking, Chaney, Clark, Mr. dI ITCIICOCK said he did unt intend to deliver ~Cutler, Dorsey, Farr,Graham, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, a tetiinperaiice lecture. lie hoped the anmendment of Holt. Lawrence, Nash, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Rid the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAWYER,) would die. Smith of Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Steb not prevail. Petitioners to the number of twenty bins, Stilwell, Stickney, Swan, Way, and Wilson, thousaud, had prayed to have a restraint put upon all were found absent. licenses for the sale of spirituous liquors, and they have On motion, Mr. WILSON, was excused at least a right to an expression of the opinious of this On motion of Mr. MITCHELL, all furtherproceed body upon that question. The amenddment proposes a inns under the call were dispensed with. very different thing, and may have the effect to prevent Ihe question then being on Mr. SAWYERS amend a vote upoin the uaked proposition. He wainted to vote meat. upon that question, not to evade it, and he hoped, for Mr. KENNON. He wanted to say a few words in h at purpose, the amendment would be defeated. explanation of the vote he intended to give on the OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, JANUARY 31. a- The refore, unless the friends of the measure, could - think it would be desirable to remove all restrictions dupon the traffic; leaving it unlegalized, and uncone demned; leaving it to the Legislature hereafter to ap ply such remedy against the evils resulting from this d traffic, as future experience may suggest, I could not d feel prepared to take the step which I had almost con- sented to do, although, I do not withhold my support o from this report, on account of any feelinig of opposi- tion to the report itself, but for fear of defeating, not n only that object, but the constitution itself. I would, y therefore, suggest to those who are anxious to try e this experiment, to consent to the amendment which e would suit our views, for the reasons I have stated, and allow us to vote wilh them upon the report. f Mr. MASON. The gentleiiian from Shelby, (Mr. THOMPSON,) supposes that if we insert this provision into the Constitution, taking away from the General - Assembly the power of authorizing by license the traf fic in spiritous liquors, that such a provision, together with the existing laws upon the subject, would have - the effect to prevent the manufacture of, and all corm- mercial dealings in those articles. I understand that . to be the subslatnce of the gentleman's legal opinioIn. Mr. THOMPSON assented-repeatii g his language as given above. Mr. MASON. I desire then to say a word or two in the hearing of the gentleman, upon this suggestion of his. All our laws regulating or prohibiting the sale of a spirituous liquors provide lor a license autliho-ising cert eain individuals to sell intoxicating driuks * and de nounce penalties against those who sell by the smi.all measure without such license. Th-e General Assembly by the exercise of its ordinary functions, as a Legisla tive body, has undertaken) to regulate the sale of ar dent spirits through the instrumentality of license. So that, where there is no license, there is no righit to sell, under a certain quan tity; but, above that certain quan tity, the trade is free.-The limritation, I bel eve,is one quart. The legislature, then, have authorized the issuing of a license to sell by the small. That is all they have done-there being no constitutional provision in the case. One suggestion further. From what I have already stated, there must necessarily be a revision of the statutory provisions upotl this subject, because they are all based upon the principle of a license. Anid, therefore, when you take away the license, all your legisla tion founded upon il, of course, falls to the ground. Mr. President: I expect to vote tor this proposition, I have not heretofore said a word about it, nordo I now mean to detain the body nmaniy m)iniutes. I expect to vote for this proposition upon the principle, that it is wrong in the State to license any iniriioral practice Public sentiment in Ohio would not tolerate the Legis. lature of the State in authorizing a license to keep a gaming house, or a house of ill-fame, or a band of counterfeiters-. Yet ihere is really no difference in principle, between legalizing these employments, and authorizing a man to keep a mere dran dri: king-house. All of them ale wrong in nmorals-leading and tending to different consequences to be sure-but all pernicious to good order and the prosperity of society. The state ought to desist from the policy of levying a tax upon the appetite of man, when the gratification of that appetite is at the cost of the peace, prosperity and hap. piness of his household, as well as destruct ve of his spiritual interests —forbidden by the law of God, and the best interests of society. Thze L~egislature ought nXot to give a man lice~nse to make his neighbor drunk. But, under the existing license law, such a man goes out and meets his fellow man, and stands up in society with the endorsement of the law in his pocket. He has his license under the great seal of Ohio, for the amendme nt under considera tion, and in the whole re port. Uponco ns ultation withhis col league from B el mont, (who concurred with him in opin ion ) he haa concluded to vote against the amdendment and th whole report. In the f irst place, the peition ers seem to have ha( in view and to have directed their efforts to guar( again st wh a t they consider a sinful practiceb-a prac tice l egalized by granting licenses. If there was ne ac t of the Legislature in relation to the traffic, in ar dent spirits-tno law authorizing a license-every mat an(t d w oma n would by the common law, h av e author itn to k eep a nd sell,any quantity of ardent spirits. The do or woul d then be thrown open to all, to retail. The adop tion ot such an articl e in the constitutio n would in h is op inion, h ave a tend ency to increase, instead oo diminishing the ev il. T he business would fall intp worse hands. In the s econd place, itcwou ld be an experim ent an untried experiment which ought not be m ade in the organ ic lIaw. Thi s experiment ought to be made by the Legisla ture; and, if it did not work well, the act might be repealed, o r a lt ered, as,c ircumstances mi ght require. He doubted the propriety of putting any thing in the constitution, of this nat u re; much more the article under consi deration. For these reasons, he would vo inte agai nst ad the amendment and the wh ole report. Mr. THOMPSON of Shelby, desired only to make a remark or two upon the whole question. It is a ques tion up on w h ich, as he remarked on yesterday hie had f elt a g re at d eal of doubt, as to met hi e ough to vote. I found (he said,) that the advocates of th is mneasure wer e claiming tha t we should prohibit the Legislature from granting authority to license this traffic, thereby, throwing open the whole matter, and giving to both parties in the case, in the language of the gentleman from Logan, "an open field and a fair fight." But, like the gentleman from Belmont, [Mr. KSENNoN,] I had some doubt about the propriety of pursuing this course. But I had, upou reflection, concluded to vote for the proposition, with the understanding that it was to throw the door of this traffic, open to all-rather yielding my own judgment to others, who had beets foremost amongst the advocates of the temperance reform. A friend upon the other side of this chamber, last evening, showed me an amendment, which he had prepared, making it the duty of the Legislature to repeal all existing laws in relation to the traffic; and with that amendment, I had concluded to go for the report. But my friend informed me this morning, that the friends of the report were not willing to adopt his amendment. What, then, would be the effect of inserting this clause in the constitution? It would prohibit all granting of license in future, and leave in the Statute book, all the existing prohibitory laws upon the subject, and thus, so far as the constitution and laws could contribute to such a result, it would forever prohibit the traffic in intoxicating liquors. And could such a thing be done effectually, it might be a desirable result. Could this report accomplish the purpose it friends say it will, every lover of his species, ought to Hay, amen, to it. But I do not think we could safely go that far, at this time; because I fear, that such an absolute prohibitions of the traffic, would defeat our law hors here I cannot be mistaken upon this matter. Our constitution would meet with opposition enough, from various interests; and, if we add to this, the tremnendous opposition of those who are engaged in this traffic, and those who participate in it, I amn well sat, isfied that they would -be able to reject the constitution, we are now endeavoring to frame. t t t t q t tis a t I I v I 9 c t t 454 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, J4NUARY 31. prosecution of the business in which he is engaged:' and remonstrancecan have no efftct upon such a man. He will say to you, if you are as law-abiding as I am, you will go about your business, and. let me and my business alone. The license law was intended as a means of regula ting this traffic, and deriving a revenue to the treasury from the appetites of men which are stronger than law. What will be the consequence of a(iopting this provision? Simply, that the Legislature cati no longer give to counties, towns, and municipa! authorities, the power to license a man to deal in spirituous liquors. Mr. SAWYEPR, (interposing.) I think the gentleman from Clark has made a statement, which, if my understanding be correct, he would not, I think, like to have go abroad. Mr. MASON. If that is the case, I shall be glad to be corrected. Mr. SAWYER. The gentleman referred to certain houses of ill-fame, gambliiing-shops and bands of counterfeiters-inIot known to our laws, and seemed to infer that these who sell ardent spirits are to be classed in the same category. I hope the gentleman did not mean to say that; for I know some tavern-keepers who would not like to be classed with such characters M~r. MASON. I am glad the gentleuman has afforded me the opportunity of limniting the remarks which I have made, if I have sald aity thing that can bear the construction lihe has put upon them. I know there are keepers of hotels and taverns as respectable as any nte n an the commutnity; and who cannot be classed with those to whom I have referred. I said that the evil of selling drais was as great as that which results from the other vicious practices referred to. I did not comparecharacters at all. I would not extend the comparisoa beyonid what would be proper. I supposed the principle to be the same its all these cases. I cannot think there was any impropriety in making these references by way of illuastration. I know that in a ne;ehboring city, (New Orleans,) a large city revenue is derived from both gaming houses and brothels-an American city too. I am sorry to say it. You mey take the case f,f counterfeiters. They have been amongst us from the beginning of our history as a state-banded together in considerable numbers; antd such is their thirst to make money, that you mnight derive a large addition to the revenue from this minmoral and mischievous practice, by means of license. But you will not. And why not l I have said, I wor{d vote for this proposition, simply, because it is wroig to authorize that to be done, which, in itself, anid in its consequences, is bad and ouly bad-bad in regard to the peace of the individual -bad, in regard to his social relations-bad, in regard to his family. We all know that degradation, misery, and impoverishmeut of innocent and unoffending faln.,lies have followed from the gratification of the appetite of somine father, some husband, or some brother. And now what do I say? I inilloree gentlemen, if thev can, to assign somne reason why the State of Ohio shiould authorize such a thing to be done? Why? I know that we, cannot regulate this subject in this Conventiotli. We could not do it, if we were to sit here till August. But I subriit, whether the difficulty oa the part of the General Assembly, would be any greater with this Constitutional provision, than withoat i',? But the difficulty is upon us, and we must meet it. The license system has failed, in the judgment of thousands; and I incline to the opinion, that it has failed most signally. It seems a monopoly-a strange monopoly-the exclusive right to makedrunkards, authorized by law! I am not a mem ber of an y temperance society. I am a member of another body, which is a society not only to mantintai temperance, but every othe r Christian virtue-a society, of which it has been said. i t contains many hypocrites and infidels. I am not carried away by any feelin g o f fanaticism upon this subject; and I am no grea t admirer of malny things said and done liy those who are called t,the apostles of tetnmperance." My sympathies are, certainly, with this great cause of t emperance. But I have no more sympathy for this cause, than I have for any o t he r o f the many virtues that adorn the Christian character. Mr. DORSEY. I shald vote il favor of the Re nort; and I have cone to this de termination after very nattIre thought upon the subject. Although I have ever been an advocate of the tem perance cause, yet I have alwavs opposed legislative interference in the matter; and I came here with the intention to oppose anything of the kind. But, from the opposition which I see raised here upon different sides of the Chamber, I feel that it is the duty of every member, who is in favor of forwarding the temperance movement, to give his support wo this provision. Sir, what is proposed by this report? Is it to bind up and restrain the liberties of men? No such thing -nothing of the kind is contemplated. All that is proposed by it, is. simply, that the Legislature shall not be allowed to license the traffic in intoxicating liquors. Now, what has been the position of the friends of temperance? They have assumed this ground and said, they were perfectly willing to combat, by public opinion and the force of moral suasion, the whole broad evil of intemperance, provided the majesty of the law should not be brought up to its support. If the power and majesty of the law were taken away from their position as stumbling-blocks in the way of the advocates of temperance, they would ask nothing more. Alnd this, aid nothing more, is precisely what the report proposes. I would neither advocate it, nor vote for it, upon this floor, if it proposed anything more than to take away the sanction which the law has granted to intemperance..And I say it is a duty which I owe to the people-to the cause of morality in Ohio, and throughout the U. States- to see to it, that the law shall not occupy such a position as that. No man, who has seen the practical workings of the license system, can deny, that it does not act as we had reason to hope it would, but that it acts as a support to the power of intemperance. Many a man who would not be willing to violate any correct moral principle in defiance of law, would not hesitate, if he could cover himself with the shield of the law, to act in defiance of any principle of morality and right. I lay it down as a broad principle, that every man who retails spirituous liquors, does so in defiance of morality and right; and there are an abundance of men, who would not be willing to follow such a traffic, in the face of morality and right, if they were not protected in it by law. And it is to take away this protection, that we desire to adopt this provision. For myself, I would be willing to take merely the first line of this proposition, to wit: "The General Assembly shall not license the traffic in intoxicating liquors." This, in fact, covers the entire ground. If I were obliged to admit the assertion of the gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. ARCOBOLD,) that this was a Janusfaced report, (which I do not,) I would still contend that the two faces were looking precisely in the same 3direction. But 1 regard it as entirely unnecessary to add this latter clause. The Legislature would have the same power which it implies, without it. I do not make any motion in the case, but I should be willing to take the first alonle. 455 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES — FTIDAY, JANUARY' 31 tve Mr. MASON. The gentleyniiii cand save linself the ost trouble of a reply; for I made not onie word of allusion ize, to hirn. u- Mr. STANT,-N. Theii I livee no more lo sa,y. tnhh Mr. GREEN of Ross. This prmoositioti, if adoptpp is ed, I now understand, is to have'an effect different air froni what I was led to su,ppoe by what was said art by the friends of the measiire. What, is t,) be the his effcct of it? You have a law p'oh ibitiig the sale of he spirituous liquors below a ee,rtaini quiatitity, except a gre mam sell under liceise. No p,rsoi,n without license, he is authorized, under the exist'ii lsaw, to retail less ps -than a quart, to be drank where sold. If the-y declare ind here, that no license shall be granted hereafter in tills ais State, your conitit'iotiodl provision does inot repeal se the existing law. It is ( mere naed decliratioii of rt, ta prohibition of license. Yoqir existig lexislation lied imposes a penalty uponi ti le of ardet spi-rits-withis out license, and your Ctnstitution de clares thai no lihe cense shall be rianied. The in.V)tabl consequence he is, this constitutional provisio cooupled with existing x- legislation, amiotots to a pioltihition of the salt of he ardent spit-its, in the State of Oh~io. er Now, I do not uniderstiad that thlii is what the friends of temperance, here reqiltre. They s5,they to do not want any legislative aid whatever: that all I they desire is, that the legisiatuire sih'all riot hereafter ht interfere to legatlize this traffic. But if you adopt il this provision aud the legislature shall refiise to repeal the prohibition, then this provision as I have said amounts to a prohibition; a'id that they say, public opinion will not sustain. an I desire the friends of tli measre to tell us, can le didly, what it is they expect. to acconplish, by the e adoption of the provision. L,t aill be done fairly, te without concealmient iior by indirection. Let us b know what they think will he the effect of the adopt ion of this section. Mr. MITCHEI,L I ri,e to dischar,ge what I regard,' e a as a duty —to make a motion which is tiot off en looked Y upl on with much favor iii this boidy. I rise to muvethe re pr evious quest ion; but,, bhore doing so, I desire to re oe mark, that, althouph there is a iod deal of preoudice pl existing in the rolinds of imny, igainst this questioii cf yet it is a role which has obtained in all d(llibera-t-ve te bodies for the last five hundred yers and it is found )tto be neces,sar~y here, as'well a,,lewee is Mr. SWAN, (Yiir. MITLCiLL vielding.) If the if gentleman will ive way, I have a proposition of n which I wish to give riotic, th at I w,il (ffer it as a t substitute, if the previous question shall not be sus d tainied. h l res, Mr/MITCHELL. Ceitainly, I will give way for ttthat purpose. f Mr. SWAN then read the foilowinigproposition, b~y way of information to I'he Coniven,tioni: e "No license to traffic iintoxic,ting liquors, sh,iilI hcre t after be granted in this Stateod all laws IOrtl)iliiii the traffic, are hereby abro:gated end repealed; bhit the General Assembly niay ipass such laws reliting to sait tr ac auld - against the evils res-lting tt,erefrom, as they ulay deem,-.x f peilient, except Ilws to attbhrize the licensing ofthe same." f Mr. MITCHELL now moved the previous question. The question then being, "shall the niain question s Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which; to hve adeit erfetlyiiiainus. ver ma Isbeing ordered resulted —yeas 47, nays 46, as follows-: couvnce tha leislaioncan o n goo, s lon as Yr,stsMessrs. Arethbold, t.1ennett Blair, Cabilt, Case of any man can pursue t~~~~~~Hi l g,woiiotblwtetockiug, t'.orsey, Farr, P'orbest,Gitiett. (reene of iefianuces reac of ubli opiion Butafte thepuliic in Gregg. Bard, Henderson. Hlootmati {iumphrevitle, t unter' itslf,I d thnk t wuldbe ro-Jones, Kennon, siiug Kirkwood, t,arw,il Lidey, London, shall have so shaped ~~~~~Mason', Mditbell, lMorehead, Meiris,Orton,I f:ateison, ci e per o as an obtin alegslat~e pohiitio. IPerkins (,ulgley. Rantney, Reemetin, Riddie, R~oll sawyr,r' I shuldtin hae aise atthi tiie,butto epl toScott of Harrison, Seott of Auglaize, S.eler,iebins' what I suppoe to be an alusion madetoryefb:uibilee, sw~it,t Thompson of (,arkc Warren, Woodbury and. the ~~entlumau from Clark. NA~s —Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, B,lickeus~ B'ut, of all the reasoningi~s and conjecture-s that ha beeo- advanced in opposition to this report, the mr singular is the idea that its adoption would jeopardi t he reception, by th e people of Ohio, of the Constin tion which we,t are nboit to fratie. Tiwenty thoeusa people of h e ate of that io have petitione d for t mrat ter. If you insert it, it will, of course-, meet the approval Bu t it is safe to say, that not one-third p of our fellow-citize o n s who dasire the adoption of th t s ection have peti tiloned for it. If w e believe, with t gentleman from Ross, (M.'r. GRaE-1,) that thiose who a oppIosed to the temperance movement, would regard t[ passage of this section as the signal for a universal j bilee among t~e. grog drinkers, then we might dep~ei aliso upon their support of the constitution on th ground. Antd if allI in favor, and opposed to the cau of temperance could be. thus brought into its suppo~ there would be little dan~ger of its failing to receive ti approval of the people of Ohio. But the,question this: the insertion of this clause, vill meet with ti approbation of the friends of temperance aind t} friends of morality throughout the State~, withi few e co-ptionis, but it will be opposed, I sups,by all wl h,ave heretofore made, gain of the liquor traffic, and the sanction of law. Mr. LARWILL,' I have listened with attention gentlemen, who have spoken upon this question, and have had some mnisgiving,s as to what should be the rigt ecjurs~ for me to pursue, but, after scanning the, wio; subject I have come to a differenit conclusion from th of the gentleman froi-n Miam-i, (Mr. Den~siy.) I am not a memyber of aniy society for the promeroio of temperance; but I wish to do the greatest pos,,sib amount of good that I can for the peop~le, of th~e State and, to do that I think I shiall be, compelled to vol both against the amendment of th~e genitlemzan fret Auglaize, and the redorilof the, Stan~din~g Comm~nittee. This is more properly a subject for the action of th Legis,lature-, than for tile consideration of this bocl Our present unpreparedhess upon this subject, oinl offers another argument to my mind of the impofrtanc of the motion, which I miadle the oil.ier day to call thi people together upon tile question of a conIstitutiona conlvention once every ten years, At the expirationo ten years from this time, I think this subject could b mrore prudently acted upon than at this time. I donr think the people at this tie ir r p rdtdopt th iron rule against the license system. I believe, that i these petitions, which have been presented here upo this subject, had been presented to the General Assera bly, and I had been a memibe-r of that body I zshioal lhave;gone for the repeal of all laws granting licenises and let the trial be ms,%. But ray own opinioni is, tl,a such an experiment would only open the flood-gates o intemperance in all our towns and villages. Mr. SPrANTON. The-re seems to be, misap~pre hension prevailing with some, who seemn to argue tha the friends- of temperance are unwilling to relinquisth tie,?.id of legislation upon this subject. It is all a de, lusion for gentlemen to suppose that the friends o temperance are relyin~g, to any extent,, upon the aid ot the law. No intelligent temperance man desires such 4 i-) 6 OHI-O CONVENTION DEBATES- SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 1. derfer, Brown *f Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chamnibers, CeilliHgs, inook. Curry, Ewart. Ewing, Florence, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hlarlan, Hawkins, Hiitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Horton, fiunt, Johnson, Lars,T Leech, fIcal'better, Maxion. McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Sm,th of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stan- S bery, Stanton, ~tilwell, Stidger, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of ehelbv, Towisherd, Vance of Champaign, Williams and Worthington-46. So the call for the previous question wassustained. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. SAwYER, to wit: Strike out all after the word "State," and insert in lieu thereof the following:'-Nor slhlall the General Assemnbly ever prohibit such traffic, but." Mr. MANON damanided the yeas and nays, which being orldered, resulted yeas 12, nays 81, as follows: YEAS —Messrs. Archbold, Farr, Henderson, Holmes, Kirk. wood, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer and'I'aylor —12. NAys-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett Blair, Blichenisderfer. Brown of Athens, Brown of C arroll, Cbahiil, Chambers, Ceilings. Cookl, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Florence.'orbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, [-Ilanilton, Hard, tF arlan, Hawkins. f itchcock )f Cuyahega, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt Hootrnan, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt Hunter. Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Larsh, Larwill. Leech, Manaton, Mason, Mitchell Morehead, Mortis, McCloud, McCorm mick, Nash, Norris, Orton Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perlkins, Quigley, Riddle, Scott of I arrison, Scott of Auglalze, Sellers, Smith of Highlalnd, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, S,ebbins, Stilwell, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stalk, I'ownshend, Vance of Champaign, Warren, Williams, Wilson, WVoodbury, Worthinoton and President-81. So the ao rendm eadent to the amendmen was disagreed to. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. THOMIsON, of Shelby, to wit: Strike out all before the word "may," in the first line of the report, and insert in lieu thereof the following: "No license to traffic in intoxicating liquors shall hereafter be granted in this State, but the General Assembly." Mr. McCORMICIK demanded the veas and nays, which being ordered, resulted yeas 56, nays 38, as follows: YEAS —Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Benne-t, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Car roll, Chambers,,:oltings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing. Farrt, Gillett, Gray, Greene of )efiance Hamrilton, Hard, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuvahoga, Hitchcocki of Geauga, flootmais, Horton, Humphreville, Hu,iter, Lar sh, Leech Lidey, Loudon, Manon. Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Noreis. Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Townshend,'Williams, Woodbury and WVorthinfton-56. NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill Case of Hocking, ~;urry, Florence, Forbes, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hawkins, Holmes, Holt Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwooll, Larwill Leadbetter, Mlitchell, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Reenmelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanbery, Stidger,Str ble, Thompson of Starik, Vance of Chamtpaign, Warren and President-38. So the amendment was agreed to. The question then being on ordering the report to be engrossed, Mr. WILLIAMS demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted yeas 48, nays 45, as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cham r. hers, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Gi/lett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Hard, Hawkins,Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Larsh, Ljeech, Loudon, Manion, M ason, Morehead, Morris McsCloud, Mcl~ormick, Nash.l Norris, Orton, ~}tis, Perlrins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren,,Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Towisahend. Williams, Woodbury and Worthington —48. olst,-Messs. Archbo ld, J elair, Cahil l, C ase of Hocking, C~oilings, CDurry, Farr, Florence, Forbes. Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Henderson, Hnlmes, Holt, Johnsca, Jones, Kennlon, King, Kirkwood Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ran - ney, Reemelin, Ridd e, Roll. Sawyer, -Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stidger, Struble, Thomp. Thompson of Stark, Vance of Champaign, Warreeo ant Piesident-45. So the report was ord e red to be engrossed, an d, on motion, was ordered to be read a third time to-mor row. On motio Bon of M r. HITCHCOCK, of Geatuga, the Convention took up the report of the committee on the Legislative Department. The sanme gentleman moved that the report be committed to a committee of the whole Convention. On which motion, Mr'REEMELIN demanded the yeas and navy, which being ordered, resulted yeas 61, nays 32, as follows: YEAs —Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates Bennett, Blaie n e, Fr Blicke n,sderfesr, Brown of ALhenrs, Brow of Carroll, Case of Hocking, (.:olliigs, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart Ewing, Florence, Gillett, Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, fiar ,an, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hit~chcoch of (~eauga, Holt Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson Kennon, Larsh, Leech, Mahion, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, M:.Cormrick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Perkins. Quigley, Rakeney, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith ot Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton. Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Taylor, TIhompsoni of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Town-i-henil, Vance of Champaign, Warren, Williams ant W orthington- 61. NAys -Messrs. ('ahill, Chambers, Curry, Fart, Forbei Greene of Defiance. Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Henderson, Ho)lmes, Jones, Kin-, Kirkwooi, Larvill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Morris Orton. Patterson, Peclk, Reemnelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Aiuglaize, Sta. nbery, Stebbins, Struble, Swift, Woodbury and President-32. So the motion to commit to a committee of the whole prevailed. Mr. TOWNSHEND moved that the Convention resolve itself into a comimittee of the whole, which was disag,reed to. Mr. LEECH moved that the Convention adjourn. On which motion, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas aud nays, which being ordered, resulted yeas 58, nays 34, as follows: YEAs —Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blickelisderfer, Brown of Carroll, Collings, Curry, Dorsey, Ewvart, Florence, Gillett, Gray, Greene of' Detianice, Green of Ross, 1-tamnilton, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Ho!t. flo(,tman, Hfumphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones. Kennon, Kirk woo,d, arsh, Isarwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey. Mason, Morehead, Mc('loud, McCo,rminck, Nash, Norris, Oltotn, Otis, Plerkins, Quigey, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of' Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Stanbely, Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Taylor, Thomrypson of Stark, Tuwnshepd, Vance of Champaign, xI illiams, Woodbury and Worthington-58. Nays —-Messrs. Archtold, Blair, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Case of Hockling, Chambers, Cook, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gregg, Groesbe;k, Hard, Henaerson, Horton, Johnson, King, Loudon, MNlanou, Mitchell, Morris, Fatterson Peck, kanney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Stebbins, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Warren and President-34. So the motion prevailed, and the Convention adjourned. _ ONE HUNRRED AND THIIRD DAY. SATURDAY, February 1, 1851.f 9 O'CLOCK, P. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. I'rayer by Rev. Mr. ROBINSON. Mr. FARR presented a petition from George L. Russel, and twenty-two other citizens of Huron county, praying that a clause be inserted in the new Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors, which, on motion, was laid on the table. Mr. IMANON presented a petition from Washington Coulter and ninety-thllree other citizens of Licking county, on the same subject, which, on motion, was laid on the table. 4.,!')7 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 1. would never have ventured upon such an assertion. He could not have observed the a lmost countless in sta nces of m isery and crime resulting from intemper ance, daily see n in these streets. Mr. SAWYER, wis hed to i nterrupt the gentleman f rom Union, (Mr. CURRY,) a moment, for explanation. He did not speak of the retail of ardent spirits, but of the mercan ti le vending and ecoinomical tuse of al cohol, as a subject of t rade, and an i mpor tan t article in manufacture s. Hge did no t intend to say that the business of selling grog to drunkards b y the half gill was a laudable a nd beneficia l call ing. He had as much contempt for that tra de as any man. He spoke, or inten ded to speak mer ely of t he e conomical use of the article. Mr. CURRY, said if that was the sens e i n which the gentle man tade the re mark, it would break, i t s force. He had not so underst ood it, thoug h he had supposed himself listening very attentively to his remarks. He might, however, ha ve b ee n wrong. Some'g entleinen take anotlhernground. They deny the right of this bode, or any other body, eit her by la w, or i n the Constitutio n, to dictate to men wh at they shall eat, drink or wear. One gentleman said that, "so help him God, he would not i nter fere in this man ner, with the original and in herent rights of the p e ople." There seems to be an incong ruit y in what these gentlemen say and do.. g; They claim, that there is a great and pressing necessity to interfere with the people, and regulate and determine what sort of a currency they shall use-and whether they shall pay their debts, or purchase what they need, with a dollar of silver, or one of paper. They express the opinion that the use of paper money is a great evil, and in sist that the Constitution shall contain a clause pro hibiting it, because it is not adapted to the people's necessities-may do them great injury and so forth. Now, these gentleman are, as I said, placing them selves ill attitude of great inconsistency. They say they cannot interfere where this question of public morals is concerned. on the ground that, in this mat ter, the people can best regilate themselves. Now, to what extent these gentlemen are right, in suppos ing the regulation of the currency is more important than the preservation of the public morals, depends upon the relative value of currency and nmorals. To my mind, the preservation of public morals is a mat ter infinitely more important than any question ox currency. I have great doubts, Mr. President, whether we ought to pass the first clause of this repoit, unless the second is made more stringent in its provisions —more imperative in the obligation it imposes. The gentle man from Miami, (Mr. DORSEY,) said that if the traffic should be thrown open to all, without restriction, it would be the signal for a great and instant increase. More and worse men would enter into it. The flood gates of licentiousness would be thrown open, and vice and crime would greatly increase I havw, I confess, strong fears of such a result, notwithstaniding the opin - ions of a contrary kind, expressed by those who from their acquaintance with the subject are entitled to great consideration. If the amendment which I have now proposed shall be. adopted, it relieves me from these fears. There'would be no risk iln wiping the license laws from the statute book. Experiencee has shown l hat legislative bodies are exesedinogly slow ill respondI[ing to the wishles of the people when subjects cf this L kind are attempted to be brought to their notice. They ^ either do nlot design to healr, or they do nlot choose to act. They remain inactive,. They p~rocrastinlate. I ~havemy fears that if the article shall lie left as it now is, ; the same course will continue to be pursued by the Leg islature. They will n~ot recognlise the obligation toasts Mr. HOLMES presented a memorial from George Miley and twenty-three other citizens of Cincinnati, praying that a clause be inserted in the new Consti- tution, which shall prohibit the sale of intoxicating liquors, which, on motion, was laid on the table. Report No. 1 of the select committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits, was read a third time. The question then being on the passage of the report, Mr. CURRY moved to recommit the report to the committee which reported it, with instructions to strike out the word "may," and insert the word "shall," so that the report, as amended, would read, "but shlall by law provide against the evils resulting therefrom." Mr. CURRY said, that,[in his opinion, the question now under discussion was of greater importance to the future welfare of the people of the State than any other that had been before the Convention from the day on which it first assembled, to the present time. No one doubted but the use of ardent spirits is a great evil —no one denied but a remedy for this evil should, if possible, be devised. The question is, how is it to be done? Some gentlemen were in favor of such provisiolis in this Constitution, as should, in their effects, abolish the traffic in the article; others were opposed entirely to any constitutional interference in the matter. It was his opinion, that this Convention had been called upon, by the voice of popular sentiment, to act in the matter. Some gentlemen have urged that this was a subject which, from its nature, should be left entirely to the wisdom and discretion of the Legislature. Why so, any more than several other subjects,which gentlemen had been very anxious to regulate bv provisions in the organic law? Such questions as that of the public printing of the State, for instance. That subject gentlemen are unwilling to commit to the control of the General Assembly, without first binding and directing the action of that body by a provision, to be incorporated in the body of law we are now engaged in constructing; and for that purpose an article is inserted in the report of the committee on the Legislative Department. So, in regard to embezzling the public money-in regard to gaming-in regard to dwilelling-in regard to divorces -it has beeni thought that these subjects, which are in fact, of ilfiiitely less importance than the subject now under consideration, could not be left without invoking the aid of the Constitution-making machinery. Many evils, partial or local in their operation, have thus been guarded against by this Convention; yet all of them, summed up together, would fall infinitely short of the monstrous, the enormous evils resulting from the use of ardent spirits. Yet gentlemen say, when we have labored week after week, and month after month, for the correction of these minor defects in polity, and ask for a correction of this great blot: "Let it alone. Leave it to the Legislature.. The Constitution is no place for such a provision. You do not take a proper view of the subject." There is an inconsistency in such a course which should not exist, and gentlemen who are so anxious for restrictive provisions when it suits their ideas. ought at least to wbe tilling to meet the views of others. In the course of his remarks, the other day, the gentlemran. from Auglaize, (Mr. SAwyER,) made the very remarkable declaration, that he considered the business of the sale of liquors, as a laudable and beneficial calling. This was the first time he had ever heard ally man —either in a public assembly or out of it, willing to say that such a traffic was e~ther laudable or beneficial. It would seem as if that gentlemtan, during all his life, and especially during his residence ill this city, had kept his eyes closed or he 8 ti 0 s r t . I t t t i 458 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 1 lowed hands. If we do, we shall meet the fate that is reserved as the punishment of such acts. It is a fearful question. I shall vote in favor of both the amendments, not that I think it will make the report any better, but because it will take away from it a feature of drivelling hypocrisy, which now reniders it contemptible. I want to stripl off this cloak; but if this thing gets into the constitution, I don't care what else you put into it, it will end it with the people —of that we may be certain. Mr. MANON. The gentleman from Monroe has now doubtless killed the bill. He will vote against it, and it will be destroyed, however, he was still willing to try it, in the constitution, and he should vote for the constitution, whether it went in or not. Mr. RANNEY was opposed to the Report and all amendments. He voted no on all questions connected with it. He was against the whole matter, for the reason that this body was not the proper place to consider the subject. He was surprised that gentlemen who had so constantly been ofposed to going into detail in the organic law, should be urging the inserting a mere sumptuary law into the Constitution. But this is worse than that. It is a mere experiment-a trial the result of which even its friends admit to be doubtfull, and yet they are urging that it shall form a part of the fundanmental law of the State. Now this whole matter is within the province of the Legislature. That body has long since taken and exercised jurisdiction over it. That body olly can:reflect the changes of Ipublic opinion upon the subject, and if it shall do that which is of doubtful propriety, a remedy is within their reach, by a repeal asd a trial of that which experience has shown is more effectual to produce the desired result. Mr. HOLMES said he felt this to be a question of much importance, especially to the people of Haimiilton county. He was opposed to the article and to all the action that had been taken in the premises. Mr. President, what are we here for? Is it not to construct aii organic law-to lay out by metes and bounds the different powers of the governiment? Gentlemen come here, and ask us to put into this code of prin ciples a Leeiulative provision, which if it should prove, unfortunate could not be taken out without an amendment to the Constitution. I have no fault to find with the gentlemen composiog the committee. They respouded properly to the prayers of the petitioners; but I shall be unwilling by my vote to provide for leading nien into teimptation by opening a door wide to intemperance, and allowing every man to enter into the traffic. No man familiar to a population Iike that of Cincinnati, would be willing to throw away the restraints of law, because he would be aware, at once, that it would increase ten fold the evil, and the consequences. Mr. H. proceeded to speak of the petitions and of, in many i nstances, the ignorance of the signers of the peculiar sentiments they contained; also of the action of the Council of (5iicinnati on the temperance questio n. Mr. MANON. The gentleman from Hamnilton, (Mr. HOLMES,) is gratified with the idea, that although the City Council of Cincinnati, some twelve or fifteen days ago —and after this Report was printed, (with no doubt a copy before them,) —did adopt a mlemorial addressed to this body, asking us to incorporate this prov isionl in the Constitution, they now, or will soon send to us another memorial explaining away what they have done. Let him so console himnself, and act in accordance with it, if he chooses; I will here read a few lines from a moral pamphlet which I hold in my hand, on a subject closely connected with this, in which I find the followinlg: an d h owever great and crying the evils may be, and however apparent they may become, thev will leave them to be acted upon and corrected solely bdy public opi nion, or not at anll. But if in the organic law, the Legislature sha ll be c ompelled t o provi de against the evils complained of, we many then with perfect s afety declare that all laws regarding the subject of license may be wiped away. M r. P resident: I hav e made this motion freely, in good f ai th, and impelled by what I conce ive to be my du ty a s a member of this body. I shall vote for it if I v ote alone, and in so d oing, whi l e remembering that in this, and other public bodies, I have given many votes b e aring upon the public welfare, I shall look upon this, as the best and most praiseworthy vote I have give n in the whole course of my life. Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to amend the instructions so as to require such an addition to th e report as wi l annul t he exi sting laws prohibiting the sale of ardent spiri ts with ou t license. The question then being on the amendment to the instructions, Mr McCORMiICK was in favor of the recommitmernt, and opposed to the motion to instruct, both by th e gentleman froin Union, [Mr. CURRY,] and the gentlem an from hichland, [Mr. KIRKWOOD.] As he had said yesterd ay, the codmmittee believed the report to be all that was necessary. They ha d been very modest-had not occupied muich space, and had hoped t h eir little report would pass through, and escape the buffetieug s that had met those that were larger and more pretentious. They had been mistaken. It had be en charged with all tihe crimes in the catalogue. They had thought it walked directly up to the point. It had been charred with duplicity, with ambiguity, with looking one way and rowing a nother, and with lI ooking b oth ways. When the bill of rights had been under discussion, the gentleman from Trumbull had offered an amendment, providing, in effect, for the abolition of all licenses, of every description. It had been adopted in Committee of the Whole by a very large majority. Seeing that vote, the committee thought the Convention would bear them out in a provision to remove the protection of law from the sale of ardent spirits, and throw it open, to be acted upon by public opiniioii. They thought that if the Convention had decided that all trades should be free, the Convention would decide that one particular trade should be free. This was the reason for the report. They had made use of plain language. They had intended that the Legislature should have power to restrain. It was not equivocal, the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. REFMELIN,] to the contrary notwithstanding. Mr. REEMELIN. I did not say so. I said it was Janus-faced-looked both ways. Mr. McCORMICK. It is not Janus-faced either. Now, Mr. President, I will wait until the action of the Conveittion on the Bill of Rights, and in accordanice with its action, will be my support of this bill. Mr. ARCHBOLD said that tie matter had been ever within the power of the Legislature, and there it should be left. le did not.believe in the doctrine that removing the sanction of lawl from the sale of spirits would tend to reduce the quantity sold. He did nost want to hang sulch a weight upon this constitution. It would have loads enough to carry. It had become an agglomeration already of all that is ultra. He believed such a provision, attempting to fierce morality upon the people, would array forty or fifty thousandl votes against it. Such an attempt to make sanctimonious saints of the people, would be revolted against, or result in a fearful reaction. I say, touch not the altar of the Lord with unhal 459' OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 1. Mr. LARSIH said it made, in his mind, no difference which, or what construction should be given to it by the Legislature. lie thought that by putting it in the power of the legislature to provide against the evils resulting from intemperance, all had been done that weas necessary. He was opposed to the whole license system. It commenced upon a wron, principle. Soome eight or nine hundred years ago, a.t Rome, whlen pressed for money, the Pope proclaimed the sale of indulgences. From that germ the whole system grew, and the commission of all crimes known to men, and the practice of all vices have been permitted by sales of licenses, until men were compelled to look for some mode to rid themselves of so enormous an evil. In the process of timne, the vwhlole systemn has been wiped away, with this exception, and to this, men -who wor ship ancient abuses, cling, as to the last plank of a sinking ship. Looking at the history of the past, it will be seen that there have been times when men have deemned it necessary to stand up, and make some sacrifices, in order to stem the prevailing torrent of imimorality. We are now in one of these times, and for the good of the human race it is necessary to place ourselves in the breach. Now the law is all in favor of the rum-seller; and, surely it is no miore than justice to man, to religion, and to humanity, to ask that we be placed upon an equal footing. The question first being onii the recommitment of the report: Mr. JONES demanded the yeas and nays, wihich were o rdered, and resulted-yeas 51, nays 36, as fol losss: Y,EAs-Messrs. Arclbold, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hock ing, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Dorsey. Ewing, Green of Ross. Gregg, Groesbeck; Hard, flawlii s, Henderson, Hitch cock of Geauga, Holmnes, Hootmai, Hulcmpnieville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kirk wood, Larwill, Leech, Leadbet~ter, Lidey~ Mitchell, McCloud, McCormick, Norris, {>rton, Otis, Pat ters on, Peck, Perkins, Quigley,'Ri(ddle, Roll, Sawyer, Sellers, San ith of Highland. Stanbery, Stidger. Swan,''aylor,'i'homp son of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Woodbury Worthington and President-51. NAys —Messrs. Barbee, Bariet of Montgomery, Bates, BMickens derfer. Bro wn o f Athe ns, Gahill, Cook, ow art, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Ham ilton, Horton, Huiiter,Kennlln, King, Larsh, Marion, Mason, Morehead, Morris, Nash, Ranney, Reemeliii, Scott of Blar rison. Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Steb bins, Stilwell. Sw,ift, Townshenid and A;' lliarms —6. So the motion to recommit was agreed to. The question then being on Mr. KlitKwooD's amnend meint to the instructions: Mr. CHAMBERS moved that the Convention adjourin. On which motion, Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded the yeas and nays,, which being ordered, resulted-yeas 28, nays 58, as follows: Yr.,s —-MeSSrs. Blicl ensderfer Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Greene, of Defiance. Green of R/oss, Hamiliton Hitchcock of Geauga, H,lmes, Holt, Horton. Hunt, Ituinter, Jo es, Kennon, Larsh. Leech, NScCloud, NSsh, Norris, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Smith of'Warren, Starnbery, Stebbins, Taylor, Wilamrys and Woodbury-28. NAYS-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Case of Hocking Collings, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawking Henderson, Hootman, Humphreville, Johnson, King, Kirk wood, Lai-will, Leadbetter, Lldey. IJanon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quig!ey, Ranney, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Augflaize~ Sellers, Smith of Highland. Stantonl, Stidger,;Swlan, Swift, 'I hempson of Shelby'.'Ihompson of Stark, Town~shenri, Warren, Worthington aiad President —58. So the motion to adjourn was disagreed to. The question;then being on agreeing to the amendment of Mr. tfaRKwooI) to the instructions: Mr. lqASHl moved to lay the instructions on the table. Mr. STANTON moved that the Convention take a recess. Speaking of certain places of resort for licentious purposes in this city the Report says: "If these places, s o cl osely affiance d wi th grog sho ps, wer e en dowged th itli the sall e respectability, by being taken un-lder the protection of the civil authorities, and li censed bv the City Counicii-if these keepers were bound toI give assurance that they w ere persons of good itloral character, it would be less difficult to as certain their nrumtiiibers and location. Their fruit is seen in every pI'ace." These suggest~ions are emphatically true. -I concur in them fllylv. You see the fruits of the license sys tem daily. I wo uld as soon vote for the licensing of one species of these places of resort, a, as another. I am opiposed to the legalizing or upholding by law, of a tching nthat I believe to be wrong-a thing that all here admit to b e so. I wish to comply wi th the pray ers of the petitioners, or a large inajority of them, at least. All th ey ask, is, that we prevent the General Asswerbly fron licensing th e s ale of intoxicating l i quors; and in that, I, for one, agree. Do not give it t he sailctioii of law, btft leave it free to be governed by public opin ion; and when that shall be in favor of re straioingi lawes, let them corie. For public opinion, miaturelv and deliberately made up, never errs. It Mrill not do so in this case. I an oppesed to all mo oiopo lies; awud above all, to those granted for the pur pose of deali n;g out d eath arld d estruction. Legaliz irg that which is morally wrong, I protest against. Mr. KIRKWOOD desired the re-commi tment, for the r eason t hat he thought the language of the Re ort amnbigullous, a nd th at it woul d not be understood. S onrte gentlemaan supposed its effect old be, not only to strike dow n the powe r to license, but also ai5nul thei laws pr ohsibi ti d- an d r endering penal the sale of spirits without a license; others believed that it would only destroy the license system, leaving the prohibition s tanding. The latter wa s his opinion. Hre wanted all chance for misapprehension taken away- If the effect was to b e, to abolishl all licenses, and leave the penal laws to restrains the traffic, stae iCdaiig, lie wa nt ed t o knov it- if o therwise, he alted to lknow it. He should, therefo re, vote for the re coi-tmi-ienat. mar. BATES said he app rehended the effect of recormmmittal would be, tha t this discussion would all be to g o over again; Sand that gentlemen were as well prepared to vote now, as they would beat halry futu re ti me. W hile uip, lhe desired to say, that ihe did not occuepy the position i n owh ich th e g entleman from Truiibull pla ces the friends of this measure. He divi des them-into two classe s-those who would prescribe "wNhat we shall eat, what we shall drink, aned wherewithal we shall be clothed"-aand those who would open, a barrel of whiskey owl every corner, and say colime, "drink and be merry." This, so far as le was concerned, was not correct. What is the question before us, stripped of all the mystification, which the ingenuity of that gentleman and others, has thrown around it? Why, simply this-Tfie Gereral Assembly shall not have the power to legalize, by s, ecia.l enactment, that which all acknowledge to be an evil, but shall leave it to be controlled by public opinion, under such legal restraints as that public opinion may demand. It is this and nothing more. Mr. LARSH said he should vote against the re eommmitment. He believed the report contained enough, and nlot too nintch. Mr. KIRtKWOOD. W~ill the gentleman please to give his construction to the report, as to how far it~ goes. Does it merely prohibit the license of the sale of ardent spirits, and leave in operation the penal laws against the unauthorised vending of that article, or does it repeal those laws, also? 460 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 3. On which motion, Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded the' Mr. SAWYER moved that the Convention resolve yeas and nays, which being ordered, resulted-yeas itself into a committee ofthe whole; which was agreed 16, nays 58, as follows: to. Mr. HumFHRaVILLaE in the chair. YEAs.- Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery. Brown of Athens, Mr. SAWYER moved that, Report No. 9. of the Case of Hocking, Gray, Hunt, Manion, Morehead, McCloud, standing committee oni the Legislative Department be Patterson, cott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Stanton, taken which question no quorum voting. Stebbins. Swift, Taylor and Woodburv-16. NAYs.-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Bates, Blickensderfer, Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geanga, moved that the comBrown of Carroll, Cahill, Chanibers, Coilings, Cook, Curry, mittee rise, which was agreed to; and the committee Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of rose, and the Chairman reported that there was not a Defiance, (ireen of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, quorum of members present. Hawkins, Hentlerson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter. Johnson, Jones, Mr. MITCHELL moved a call of the Convention, Kennon, King, Kirckwood, Larsh, Larwill. Leech, Lidey, which being ordered, Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Mitchell, Morris, McCormiclk, Nash, Orton. Otis, Peck. Per- Barnettof Preble, Case of Licking, Chaney, Clark, kins, Quigley, Ranney, Heemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Sel- Fwart E lers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stil, Eing, Green of Ross, Greesbeck, Harlan, well, Stidger, Swan, I'hompson of Shelby, Thompson of Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Holmes, Holt, Lawrence, Stark, Towvsheid. Warren, Williams, Worthington and London, Norris, Perkisis, Rectaelin, Roll, Smith of Prc-sident-68. Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Struble, Way and Wil So the Convention refused to take a recess. son, were fotund absent. The question then being on laying the instructions Mr. SAWYER moved that all further proceedings on the table: under the call be dispensed with, which was agreed Mr. CURRY demanded the yeas and nays, which to. being ordered, resulted-yeas 58, nays 30, as follows: Mr. SAWYER then moved that the committee YEAs —Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bliclkens- of the whole ba discharged from any further considerderler, B3rown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambere, Col lings. Cook, Dorsey, Florence, Greene of Defiance, Green of ation of the report of the standing committee oc the Ross. Greggg, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Legislitive department; upon which motion, Holmes. Holt, Hootian, Horton, Hunt. Houter, Johnson, Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and navs, which Jones, Kennon, i,arh, Leech, Mason. Mitchell, Morehead Morris. da Orton, Otis, Patter I wee ordered, and resulted-yeas 32; nays 53, as folMorris. McCloud, Nash, Ner ron, O i,uPtesn, Peck, Perkiins, Quigley, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, lows: Sellers, Smith of Ilighlal, Smith of W'arren, Stanbery, Ys-Ms s. B"e, B'air, Cahill, C hambers Farr, Gray, Stanton, Stebbiqs, Sawa, Swift, Taylor, Themrp- G -eet of Delian(e, Hawkins, H Johkso,e, K'i,son of Stark, Teownsend, Warren and Preside net-58. non, Laiwill.. e l,de, Miti 1 MCoricii, Orktonc, Pat NAys-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Cahill, Case of Hocking, terso,, Petck, Ruanner, Rildle.'av yer, Scolt of Au,,taize, Curry, Ewailt, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Giliett, Gray, Grtes- Seolers, Siebkiieo, Swit kney a lo,, Woodbeck, Hard, Henderson, Humphreville, King, Kirkwood, Itiy antI Prestdent-3 Larwlll,,Leadbetter. Lidey, Manon, McCorm iy NAYs B Iaaltsere Bates, Br,aiine' BiofkReemelin, Scott of Harrison, Stidger, Thompson of Shelby, e Bisete -,ii H ti-eit of Atlies, Boot if Caro, Case o! Hi,kWilliams Woodbury and WortCcington —,0. Gin et, C~al,o,i,sioo.Cir, Gi'-ee,- 1)e,f FRos)L,,c G!-~es So the motion to lay on the table was agreed to. Hal-(I, H4en-.der-son, Hit. ho,.k or G;a,t,,t a, Ho t e, Ro, H tt,ttite Mr. SMITH of Warren moved that the Convention ille, Bt Httr Kt at-if)Lcacilaeiier, adjourn. Mao,ie Masoii Morelead, Morr i, MC().i s, Per. On which moteon, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas kiis, Q,ti::ley S,o tt of Ha,ares, S,airy, and nays, and being ordered, resulted-yeas 58, nays stanto s, 5t1w,. Sidgt, Swa,), T'tlllos.O of S'elby, immp 30asoo of 6,a!, Vittre Ot Cftaittpaigit, Wariet, Wiltiiams and 30, as follows: ~Vorthington —53. ~EAs —Messrs. Aichbold Barbee,Bates,Blickensderfer,Browsi So the, otion was t of Carroll, Cha mbers, Coilings, Cirry, Ioisey, EIvrt, Ewing, Florence, Greene of Def0iace, Green of Ross, Cresbeck, Mr. SAW'YER maovd tltat the convention ressolvo Hamilton, Harti, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Iolt. floot- itself intot a coittmittee of the whole, oni the R,iport No-., nman, llotlon, Humpbreville, Hunt, ttunter, Jolnet. Ke (on, 2, of t standiug committee on thi Legislative dej)art' t,,-rslh, I,eecli, fLeadbetter, Lidey, Mason, Miitchell, Morris, iei;uo hciqf~toi i~~srsh, L Ledey ~~~~masnHney rnit; upon which quesileon, 5]:cCormick~, N~ash, Norris, Orton, 1'erkins, Quigley, Runiner Mceeoeliii, Roll, Sawyer, Sellers, SQith of Highland. Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nuy, wy hich Smith of Warren, yStanbey, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Taylor, weie ordered, and resolted-yeas 34; nays 50, as folThompson of Stark. lownshend, Williams, Woodbury and low, President-58. NAYs-Messrs, Barnet of M,lontgomery, Brown of Athens, Yp.ts —Mossrs. Bfonieit, C ok, o,'e, Fart', of Deft - Cahitl, Case of Hock ig, Ceo,i Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, acre Betde sa, Hoiiirevif Gregg, lawkins. Henderson, Johnson, King. Kirkwood, Lar- Keon Kiwood, Lii,v, Matii will, Marion, F Morehead, 1cCloud, tits, Patterson, Peck, Mileb"' v, ittie, Scott of Harrison, ott of Auglaize, Stanton. Stebb ins, s tf Tay oi Tiiotsots Swift. Thompson of Shelby, Warren and Wortainngton- p'. ci Sbel!,y r i,to'-y atitii So tha motion prevailed, and the Convenition ad'ItsvMrs-. Br' tee Ha ery Bate" Blai, HBii-l(:e,tder tiif, B.owt of Cartroll, Cratail, Case jourmed until Monday morning, at nine o'clock. i,f H,ickis, Chtambiers, C l C Cttt'r F,, C'e ie, Forbesa GCi Gaha Gi Fr. G r e,. Rainis' ONE HUNDRED AND FOURTH DAY. IsI-tes i of Gaita Rati. [littiler, MONDAY, Feb. 3, 1851. J iii,,i K's' Moriletil Mocis, McftCottd, Nash, Otis, O,,,ot t of, larrt isot,, t 9 o'clock, A. M. nf Aitslaize, Sinl of' Wat Statten, Sillwel The Coivention met pursuant tc adjournment. S,f Sta'k. Vance of Cham paigi, War ren, Prayer by Rev. Dr. Rice. Wilt sins ad Wcriltiiot 5 Mr HAWKINS presenited sundry petitions from Mr. ORTON moved to take up the resoelutien offer James Rogers, P. 3. Patterson, asid eighty oither citi- ed by himself, a few days since, providing for aI sine zeus of Mu.rgan counity, praying that a clause be iaiser. die adjournment of the'Convention on the fourth day ted ill the new constitutlion, prohibiting the Legislature of March next; upoen which moticit, froim passing any law legalizing traffic in spirituous Mr. MANON detnan ded the yeas arid nays, which liquors, which on motion were lafd on the table. were ordered, and resulted —yeas, 43, nays 41, as fol Mr. STICKNEY presented sundry petitions from lows: Charles Foster, Ann S. Lewis, and forty-two other Yr.as —Messrs. Baroci of Monigeomery, Bates, B'eic, Brown males sod females, of Seineca county, on the same sub- or Aibess. Case of Ruckinig. Cock., Curery Cutiter. Dursey, Fsar, ject, which, on motion, were laid on the table. fFuete ulc,Glet'y it,,,H-i akn,Kt [ ca, King, Larsb, Larwill, Leech, Litley, Mason, Orion, Otis;, 461 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MON!DAY, FEBRIJARtR 3. Peck, Q'tia'ev, Ralltley, Sawyer. Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize. Sellers, Sitandl-y, Stebitis. Stickiney, Stid1,er, Swift, 'l'hompsoti o' Stark, Vanee of Chamnpaign', Wood!)iry, Wor thirt-Iton an,d lPresidenit —43. N.vs, —Messrs. Ar(cIihold. Bar':ee, B'nlett, Blicklensderfer-, Brown of C(arroll, Cahill. C!,aimers, Col ings. Greene of D-efi ant(e, Green of Ross, Hami;.ton, He,derson, H'teh'ock of Ge aiiga, elo!t, Hootman, Hortorl, Hutimphreville, Hunilt, Hu ~ter, Johiisoni, J ones. Kirkwood. Leadbletter. Mtahioui, Mitchell. More head, Morr is, MeClo'd, MCormiicl, Nash, Patterso,t. Perkinis, Riflde, Smith of Warren. Stanton, Stilw(ll, Taylort, Tlorip-)son of Shelby, Townsherid, Warren and Williaits-41. So th e re solution was taken up. The quest ion being on the adop tion of the resolu tion, Mr. MANON said, the proper time to act on this re solution was when the Cov,ention had gone through its business, and had referred it to th e committee on revision. He was opposed to spending time in the discussio n of it now. We awere in the habit of losing too much time. He therefore moved that the resolu ti on b e postponed until the third Monday in F ebruary. The questiono beig then being on the postponement, Mr. MASON was in favor of having a day fixed, anrd thought th e e agc t of adop ting th e resolution would be to expedite business. The question being on the postponement of the re solution, Mr. SWIFT demanded the veas and says. which w e e ere o rdere d, and resulted-yeas 60, nays 27, as fol lows: YEAS-mmessrs. Arch!,old, Blrbee. Barilet of Motit:a onmel ry, Bendneit. Bi ike: Isderfe ci B,oliM of At!teis, B owni ot Caorr,ll, Cahtill, ChaewrdLas, adColiings, C,irr, ouey, F toreice, Gi letl, Gha!awrs, Gr.enie of Deiasse, G-eel oft Ra,ss. Hlanilton, Haw kiins teoriteIn ti,)onk,i o Gaial, Heor ae, i not lt ine, wH oot masn, Ha umphroville, iw ae]ue-t, [pliinte, TJoh son, Jones Kirkwood, Larmwll, Leech, Lead:elter,c, huatoln, Mt conrris, iiscCor. mick, Nash, Otis, Patterson. Perki,,,, (uiley.Ranniie. Ri~dde, Roll, Sw aieth of Warren), Staito in, Stilwell, Sti(,kiney. Stidger Swan, Taayolo,w''hompsonl of Sshelti, h'owidshevrbe. Vance of Champoai,th. War-ehw, beilliams, Woaodbliy, tVoathiirgton and Preside,t-60. N.Ys-Messrs. Bates, B'air, Case of Hlockinig, Cook, Cnitler, Fart, Fo,-'es. Gt'ay. G etch Hard, Kelno, Kin*. Larse, L;(ey, Mason, Morehead, M(,Clouid, O'-Io., Peck, Reelin, Sawver, Scoat of A ulaize, Sellers, Sia ntbey, Steslixss, Swift aCid Thloinp ei nn f Stark —27. So the resolution was postponed. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, moved that the Con vention take up the report of the standing committee on Preamble and Bill of Rights, which was agreed t.o. The business in order, being tfie, consideration of the amendments made to said report in committee of the whole, the same were read by the Secretary. The question then being on agreeing to the first amendment of the committee of the whole, to wit: In section 3, line one, strike out the word "shall,", it was'agreed to. I ~ The question then being on agreeing to the second k amendment, to wit: In section 3, the last line, strike out, the word "Legislature" and insert in lieu thereof the words "General Assembly;" it was agreed to. The question thus being on agreeing to the amend,ment, to wit: In section 4, line one, strike out the word shall; it was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the fourth amendment, to wit: In section 5, strike out after the wford "Bury" as heretofore used and herein provided; it was agreed to, and the section, as amended, reads reads as follows:. "Slsa. 5. The right of tribal, by jury, shall be inviolate." The question then being on agreeing to the fifth amlendmnent, to-wit: "See. 6, in the sixth line, strike u t the wordl "any,"' and add at the end of the sixth n1 e following ~ior for any other civil purpose." o iThe question then being on striking out the word Iny," the same was agreed to. The question then being on inserting the words, ' or for any other civil purpose." Mr. HITCHCOCK cf Geauga, moved to amend the words, by inserting between the words "for" and "any" the words, "for the purpose of," and by strik ing out the word "purpose" and inserting the word "duty." The question being first on inserting the words, ,,for the purpose of." Mr. ARCHBOLD urged the great necessity for pre cision of language, in this matter. He did not be lieve the gentleman from Geauga, [Mr. HiTcHncocK,] had any desire to abolish the practice of taking an oa th in courts of justice; nor did he believe there was any desire hlere to establish a test of faith, as a qual ification for office. But there was great danger, and ground to fear, that by using language not fully un derstood, an abuse might be established. Mr. HITCHCOCK, said the sole object of the amendmenlt was to provide that no man, whether Christian, Mahomedan or Infidel, shall be prohibited from testifying. There was no intention to establish any religious test. The question then being on the amendments, the same were agreed to. Mr. STANBERY then moved to amend the amend ment of the committee further, by adding at the end, the following "But not:hing herein contained, shall be construed to dispense with the administration of oaths or af firmnatoans." Which was agreed to. The question then being on the amendment of the committee as amended, Mr. MASON wished to know whether the effect of this amendment would be to prevent an inquiry into the religious belief of a witness, with a view to ques tion his credibility. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geautga, said so far as that was concerned, he supposed the matter would be left as it is now, to be regulated by the Courts. Mr. STANBERY, inquired-then what is the ob ject of the provission-if it does not change the rule of evidenee? Mr. RANNEY said, his understanding was that it would cut off all such inquiry, Mr. HUMIPHREVILLE thought such a question nmight be entertained by a Couri, under an impeach ment of his character as a witness. Mr. LEADBETTER, was opposed to this change in the rules of evidence. The practice of oath taking was predicated upon the desire to bind the consciences of men. By so doing all hold upon the consciences of mene would be lost, and if the witness has no fears $ of the penitentiary, there is no hold upon him whatever. Men might, to carry out the idea, be sworn by the pen itetntiary. TMr. REEMELIN said it seemed the effect of the armiendmieint, if not its intention, was to defeat the pro position. The idea that Courts or juries believed a [nan any more because he has sworn, is all a humbug. It is no protection, but on the contrary, it puts it in the power of a rogue to swear away the rights of men. The gentlemen show that the t toey are behin d the agst. u Mr. RANNEY saidl it had nlever been necessasry in the Courts of Justice of Ohio, for a man to take anl oath. He has always bfeen allowed to affirm. By that all the objections of genltlemen falls to the ground. The Supreme Court has, in effect, annihilated the old commonl law doctrine on the subject. It was true that there had tbeen some diversity of opinion, but at present, he believed it to be se ttled that the coiuonces law doctrine was done away. He had seen instances 462 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 3. 463 that convinced him of the utter impropriety of such his credibility-the question of his competency being a rule. settled. Mr. SWAN asked the gentleman from Trumbull, Mr. HOLT was opposed to the amendmenet of the (Mr. RANNEY,) to stale what the rule is at present. gentleman from IHamilton, (Mr. GROESBECK,) because Mr. RANNEY said there was now a reported case, it placed it in the power of parties to inquire into the in which the Supreme Court had done away with the religious belief of witnesses after they have given common law doctrine, and that now, no question could their testimony. He did not deem such a practice be raised as to the religious belief of a witness. He consistent or proper. You make no test of religious believed this a most proper provision to go into the belief for your judge or juryman; but a witness who fundamental law of the State; and for himself he may perhaps hold the sanme religious belief, may be would never consent that religion should be prosti- excluded on account of it. The true rule is the plain tuted, by beconming the test in courts of justice. He scripture maxim —by their fruits ye shall klnow tlhem. did not wBant the courts transformed into schools for''he question then being on the arnendment of the h)ypocrites. coilimittee'of the whole, as amended Mr. GROESBECK said there was one view of the Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays which case, which it appealed to himn had not beeii present- being ordered, resulted-)yeas 33, nays 55, as follows: ed. Gentlemni(n in their discussion upon the subject YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Bennett, Blair, Chsmbers, Cook. hIad spoken only of the effect of judicial oaths upon Dorsey, Farr, Graham, Gray, liitchcock of Geauga, Holl, the witness, anrd the constraint, whatever it might be liumphreville, Jones, King Larsh Mithell Moris Pat which they inpi1osed upoit Turn. But there was a — terseon, Perkins, Rainney, Reemelin, iiddle, Soll,,awyer, Scot t of Auglaize. Sellers, Stanton, Sticline y, Stidger, Swift, other view, of equal and even greater inmportance, and Woodbury, Worthington and President-33. that was the consideration of the effect which it might N AYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blickens have upon the interests of parties. I have, for exam- derfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill Col pl a claim for contract broken or some other matter lings, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, pie, a claim for coritiact broken, or some Gieene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg Groesbeck, Hain in which I deem my rights have been infringed. I ilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootinan, Hor bring my suit. I pursue the remedy which the law ton, Hlunlt, Hunter, Johnson, Kennon, Kirkwood. Larwill declares to be a proper one. I examine A. B. a,d C Leech Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Mc support of my cai I introduce D. up the Cloud, McCormick, Nash, Crton, Otis, Peck, Quigley, Scott T.D.n support of my claim. I introduce D. upon the of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stan stand. and propose to examine him, because I know bery, Stebbins, Stilwell. Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shel. that he saw withll his eyes or heard with his ears those by, Thompson of ataIk. Townshend, Vance of Champaign things which I deem material to be proven in order and Williams-55. to secutre the justice which I claim is myv due. An So the amendment of the committee ofthe whole'as attorney upon the opposite side rises and objects to amended, was rejected. his testimony being received. Why? Because there The question then being upon agreeing to the sixth is something iii his religious belief that under the amendment, as follows: See. 7, 4th line, strike out present rule, renders himn incompetent. He believes the words "against his consent." either too much or too little, and his testimony is ex- Mr. REEMELIN demanded the yeas and niays, eluded. Now who is the party wronged? 1 amn I which being ordered, resulted-yeas 23, nays 65-as am entitled to his evidence, whatever it may be, and follows: though the exclusion may to some extent affect him, YEAs-Messrs. Dorsey, Holt, Jones, Larwill, Leech, Lidey it is ree that is injured. Manrion, McCormick, erkins, Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, A-aiii, I contend that the veracity of mankind does Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Vance ol Champaign, not in half the cases in the world depend upon their WVoodbury andt Worthington-23. religious belief. I agree that in many cases it does, \AYS —Messis, Archbold. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, but in far tihe greater majority of instances, men Baites, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, swear without, in the least, reflecting upon the obli- Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Farr, Florence Forbes, Gillett, Graham, gation which the oath imposes upon their conscien- Gray, Green of Ros-, Gregg, Groesbeck, H amilton, [ard, ces. Take one hundred professors of religion from Hawkins, t-Jenderson, Hitchcockl of Geauga, tHootman, Horthe body of ainy evangelical church. Bring them up- ton Humphreville Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, ing Kirk onthe witness stand and call upon them to testify wood, Larsh, Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, Morehea,, Mor o' fy, ris, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, and fifty out of that hundred will have their religious Quigley, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highfeelings so dormant, and their spirituality so lifeless land, Smith of Warren, Stanbery. Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, that their consciences will not for one nmoment recur'i'ownshend, Warren and President-65. to the distant pailis and penalties which revelation So the amenedment was rejected. has denounced against him who bears false witness. The question then being on the seventh amendment, They may tell the truth; but they will not tell it be-, to wit: In section 7, where these words occur near the cause they are under the influence of any present end of the same, "it shall be the duty of the Legislafeeling of religious obligation; and there are men of ture," strike out the word "Legislature'" and insert in no profession of religion at all, whose testimony may lieu thereof the words "General Assembly," which be relied upon withjust as sinch confidence as that of was agreed to. the most zealous professor. With these views, Mr, The question then being on agreeing to the eighth President, I shall vote against the amendment, arid amendment, to wit: In section 10, where near the end should, if they were not adopted, move to amend the of the same these words occur "to procure their attendsection, by striking out the amendment, and in- ance" strike out the words "their attendance" and insertiog, as the termination of the section, the fol- sent in lieu thereof "the attendance of witnesses in his lowing: behalf," which was agreed to. "Nor shall any person be rendered incompetent to The question then being on agreeing to the ninth be a witness ocn account of his opinions, on subjects amendment, to wit: In section tea, where ill the first of religious belief; but nothing herein contained, part of the same these words occur "and in eases of" shall be construed to dispense with the administering after the word "and" insert the word "other,"' which of oaths and affirmations." was agreed to. All I ask, Mr. President, is to leave the door of in- The question then being on agreeing to the tenth quiry into the religious belief of the witness open, amendment, to wit: In section 10 in the last line strike that it may have whatever effect it should have upon. out the words "subject to be," which was agreed to.. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEB,RUARY 3. move all apprehensions of those who feared that an important and necessary function of government was about to be interfered with. The question then being on the amendment, the same was adopted. The question then being on the adoption of the section as amended, Mr. BLICKENSDERFER moved to amend the same, by adding, at the end, the following: "Upon all traffic in intoxicating liquors." The question then being on the amendment, Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 31, nays 55, as follows: YE,s-Messrs, Barnet of Montgomeary, Bates. Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Cutler, Ewart, Gillett, Hard, Hawkins, Hitchcockl of Geauga, Jones, Larsb, Lid,y, Mitchell, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Smith of Warren, Sti(kney, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Williams and Worthin,gton —31. NAYs —Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Browii of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Greig, Groes beckh, Hamilton, Henderson. Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Huht, blunter, Johnson, Kennon, Kingz Kirkwoold, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Manon, Morehead, Morris, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of High. land, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Warren, Woodbury andl President-55. So the amendment was rejected. The question then being on agreeing to the section as amended, Mr. SAWYER desired to know what was meant by the words he had used in this section. Does he mean that there shall hereafter be no laws by which licenses may be issued to auctioneers, pedlars, liquor sellers, and so forth? Or does he mean, that in future no taxes shall be imposed upon an article in the hands of its manufacturer? This was what was generally understood by the term excise. He could not vote for the section, until he understood what was intended to be prohibited. under its provisions. Mr. PERKINS said the object was to prevent the State fromn going into a mode of taxation which would interfere with the rights of individuals. Taxation should rest equally upon all the property of the State; and in order to do so, should be levied upon that property, upon the basis of an equal valuation. Here is a mode purely arbitrary, without regard to valuation or even property, by which a tax is levied upon the individual, his accupation, trade or pursuit. He understood an excise duty to mean a tax laid upon the specific article in the hands of the maniufacturer; a license is a privilege to trade in certain articles, in certain locations, or in certain ways. The gentleman from Monroe [Mr. AtCaBOLD,] had inquired if it was intended to cut off peddlers' licenses. He supposed the thing explained itself; but if he wishes to be informed, I can tell him that I suppose it would go to uproot every species of that kind of taxation. mIr. NASH hoped the Convention would not adopt this provision, without some inquiry into its tendency and effects. It seemed to himl that it would go to cut up the power of the State iii cases where, in an emergency, such powver might be essential for the public safety. On motion of M~r REEiMlELIN, the Convention-took a recess. Trie q,uiesion i then being on agreeing to the eleventh amoe,ld,lnent, to wit: Ini section 12, in the first line strike out the words "liable to be," which was agreed The question then being on agreeing to the eleventh amenldmxientt, to wit: In section 14, where in the last line these wor(is occur "the person and things to be seiz-d" strilke ouit the word "-anid" and insert in lieu thereof the word "or," which was agreed to. Mr, GRO ESBECK moved to reconsider the vote, by whlich the corventlion adopeed the twelfth amendmenit of' the commnmittee of the whole, which was agreed to'. Tite qtstotion then being on agreeing to the twelfth a h, rdeed 356it was t Wdisagreed to. 'k'i ownestio Wrthen being on agreeing to the thirteenth a ~crtd, Baat, to wit: Strike out section 15. Mr. HUtjtMPfR, EVILLE demanded the yeas and nis, w tiich being ord ered, resulted-yeas 35, nays 6 a2, is iollows: YEaS-Messr:,. Bacbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bennett, Bliken sderfer, Bro w n of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chamberst, Coll iriels, Flo rence, Gillett, Green of Ross, Hitchcock, of Geaga, H,a, tro, Humphireville, K irkwood, Leech, Leadbetter, tLidey, MI ason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, otash, )ti, PaLtterson. Peck, Scott of Harrisont, Sdi h of fiigh'land Smith (of Warren, Stanbery,lStilwell, Stdgir, Swift ard Vil tianis-'15. NAYS-mi essrs. A chletold, Bate, Cahill, Cook, Burry, Cut ler, Dorsey, -Fwatt, Farr, Forbes, Graham, Gray, Gree ne of Deliance, Gregg, ttroesbeckl, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Holt, HaoonianD, Iiunt,'Htntiter, Johns on, Jones, Kennon, King, Lasth, tI,arwill, f anoil, McC ormick, Norris, O rton, Per kills, quig,ley. }:'alnney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Agl,,Iaize, Sellers, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Taylrl, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshenri, Warredt, Wo r(d' bury VWortlhi tngton a n d President-52. So the aIme(lmeilt of the commrittee of the whole was rejected. The questio.n then being on agreeing to the fourteenth amrretndmiIetht, o wit: Strike out s ection 16, and substitute the following: "Flint all courts shall be open and every person for an ixjujry (,'one himn in his land, goods, person or repu!.'atioL shall have remedy by the due course of law and righ,it aixd justice administered without denial or del:~v." which wals?greed to. Tile question then being on the fifteenth amendmnejit, to wit: In section 18 strike out the word "Legislalure" and in~sert in lieu thereof the words "General Asss,,stbly," whicll was agreed to. The qu estion then being on agreeing to the sixteenth , m(mdm~.nt" t o wvit: in section nineteen, the first line, strike out the wrd "po(wer," and insert in lieu thereof t,e wor.(d -' "riL_lhts;" Whiclh was agreed to. Th1e qeestioii then beizg on the seventeenth amendmetnt, to,icit: add as sectioni twenty, the following: ."No e>xcise or license duties shallbe imposed in this Sbatcl; I, t,Mrade an),Id com-merce among the citizens of this S~ate:-hlall always be free." ,M,I I'K:I~INS moved to amend the amendment, by stA vidl |t:' ~ all afi:er the word "State," where it first q'~t\-l q,::~,,ti tL{ cn b,'' on the amendment, irqr. }'iSJ;t. i 3 ~(re}lv desired to say, that the seetio,,i a,-' a,[?t}''lldcdt v,,:~!d ( -vey precisely the idea he in'..~(~ed to-colnvwjv, whleni he offered the section for a,lopti'o,,it Coii,tiitl4tee. HE had no intention to curta;i the p)owNver of tle.Logegsiature,or of municipalorp~rz. io-, o i ake and e ufkreo such sanitary and other rlaf71l;+(,n., -is slho;l,d be necessary for the welfare of th A,,o7nmi iy. W h \lat he desired, was to cut off tvp:-,:-('iX 1p ass liceis(e and excise lawvs as a means of t?.xa-ti{~. He thought, this ameyclIment would re 464 to. AFTERNOON SE.1,810N. 3 o'clock, P. m. EXCISE DUTIES. The question pendidg when the Convention took a recess, being t)pon the adoptioii of the 17th aMeDd. OHIO CON VENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 3. meut of the Cornrnittee of the Whole, proposed as the effect would be to repeal that statute which shortened twentieth section of the Report of the Committee on the period of the statute of limitations in these cases, the Preamble and Bill of Rights, which is as follows: from twenty-one to seven years. He cont,tiended that SEc 20, No excise or license duties shall be impos. men ought to be compelled to bring forward their ed iii this State." claims whilst the witnesses were living, and whilst Mr. McCORMICK demanded the yeas and nays,, there might remain opportunity of clearly deciding and the same being taken, resulted-yeas.15, nays 65 where the right lay. -as follows: Mr. WORTHINGTON. Wlhat would the gentle YEAs-Messrs. Farr, G-ay. G'eene of Defiance, Hlawkins, man do with squatters upon the public lands? Would Holt, Larsh. Lawrence, Leech, Nor is, Reemelin, Stanton, the title of a squatter, after twety-one years posses. Stebbns, TylorsTovvuhendad~oodury-1.' he titles of a squatter, after twenty-one years possossStebbins, Taylor, Townshend and Woodbury-15. NAYS —Messrs Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates. Ben- ion, have to be made good by the Courts of Ohio nett, Blair, Blickensderfe, Brawn of Athens, Brown of against the claim of the United States or the State of Carroll, Cahill, C,ambers, Coilings, Cutler, Dorsey Florence Ohio? He hoped the section would be better matured, Forbes, Gillctt Green of Ross Gregg Groesbeck, Hamilton, before it was pressed nufon the consideration of the Hard, Hitchcock of G auga, Hootman, Horton, Humphre- b ville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson Jones, Kenlnon, King, Larwell, Convention. Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon. M itche ll Morehead, Morris Mc Mr PATTERSON. Mr. Pregident. It will berecCloud, Mct:ornick, Nash, Otis, Pattersoi, Plecl, Quigley ollcted that in the early part of the session, I introRanney, tiddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison,aScotofllctedthati the earlypart of the session, IintroAuglaize, Smnith of Warren, Stanbery, Stillwell, Stickney, dtuced a resolution, instructing the committee on the Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift Thompsou of Shelby. Thomp- Judicial proceeding, to inquire into the expediency son of Stark, Vance of Chauipaign, Williams, Worthington of inserting a clause in the Constitution, quieting land and Presiden -65. claims where the individual holdin6th5e same had, So the amendment of the Committee of the Whole claims, where the individual holding the sae had, as amended, was rejected. by himself and'others, under whom he claims, title ~as ~~~~~~~~~~~~~amnded wa fretwenty- ear. COMPENSATION FOR PUBLIC SERVICE. and possession for twenty-one years. They have not reported to that effect, and believ Mr. HAWKINS mo ved to further amend the Re- ing as I do, that it is a subject that should be settled port by adding as an additional section the following: by this Convention, I have offered this amendment "Szc. -. The performance of puolic or official service, at this time, believing this to be a proper place for without adequate compensation, ought not to be required; i on in the Cons titution. nor shall any fee, emolument, or compensation be paid to't it nsertion public officers or agents, except in consideration of actual Mr. President, the language of this amendment parformauce of official service, or discharge of public duty.' would seem to imply, that the individual having pos,2Mr. BENNETT said, this amendment seemed to session and title, was really in possession of all that him to be very good advice; but hie regarded it not as would be necessary, to protect him in his rilghts. matter suitable to be placed in the Constitution. Well sir, we have titles expressed in the strougest The question being, upon the adoption of the amend- language that human ingenuity has invented, warment, ranteeing and defending forever. These titles are Mr. HAWKINS demanded the yeas and nass, signed, sealed and delivered in presence of two witwhich being ordered, resulted-yeas 24, nays 64, as nesses, and before a sworn officer, who certifies to the follows: same; and in order to perpetuate the same, they are YEAS.s-Messrs. Cahill, Dorsey, Farr, Gillett, Gray, Greee made a matter of record. of Defiance9 H awklos, tHeiidersoi, Hluni)phi-evilie, Hunt, With this title, the claimant takes possession, clears Johnlson, tawsreine, Leech, Lidey, Maion. Mitchell. Reei- his land, builds houses and barns, plants his orchard, elin, Saeyer, S(cott of ilarriso,. Seliers, StickIey, Swift, pays his taxes, and is permitted to remain until his Towvnshen d yn Wour-24. NAYS-Messrs. B-rcee Bariet of Montgomery Bates constitution is brolken down by fatigue, and the corBennett: B!air, B Icresdefe, ro-n of Athens, Brown of resive tooth of time has made a strong impress upon Carroll, Ciarn!es, Col'ilus. Cutlers, Ewart, Florence, Folies, himn, when he is informed that his title is what, in the Girahcam,Gree eof R)gs,-(jot GGre bek. Hfaiiiltet Hard, |far West, would he called a floating title. Yes, Mr. Hitchcock of G. auga, Holt, Bootman, Hortcin, liiuter, Jones, Ke ino, King, Kirkwoodl, Larsh, Larwill l,eadhetter, President, the Sheriff calls at his door, reads to him Mason, Moir.head, Morris, McClond, McCoricick, Nasl, a declaration informing him that John Doe and Rich Norris, Orois, i Patterson, Peck. Qui ley, Ralmey, Ridlle, ard Roe, claim title to his farm, and they being the Roll. Scott ot A,t!!aize, Smith of Hihiiand, Smtnith of Warrei, Staunherr, Stator, Stebbitns, Sti lwell, Slidger, Struble, majority, he as got to eave Swan, Tatylor, Tliompl)soO of Shelbv, Tihobipsojn of Stark The Hon. member from Clinton, introduced a resoVance of C!lian,)ai, Warre,ll Worthin,,ton and President-6I. lution to expel John Doe and Richard Roe. I will go So the amendment was rejected. with him in the expulsion, and ask him and this Con Mr. PATTERSON moved further to amend the Re- vention to go with me, and expel the land sharks that port by adding the following as an additional section stand behind these terms, who have been calmly look stond wehile thes poormanwh hase been maknthel land "SEce -. All claims to real estate, shall be held good to in on, while the poor man has been making the land any person, who has by himself, or those under whom he valuable by the sweat of his brow. In many instanclaims. had quiet possession andtitlethereto, for twenty-one ces they have been permitted to remain, until like years.".,the old oak of the forest, they are leafless and almost Mr. McCORMICK sup'posed this section to have limbless, when they are turned out of house and been offered for the purpose of settling those most vex- home on the cold charities of the world, and their ho~me on the c o l caiies of the world, and their atiols questions of land titles, which were so frequent- gray hairs go down in sorrow to the grave. It is to l~~~~~~~~~~~~~ry rairsingodw in srototh~e igrnae MIltar Distrc-r to ly rising in the Virginia Military District-embracng g prevent scenes like this, that I introduce this amend auout oue-fifth of the territory of the whole State of ment Ohio-which had led to more litigatioaand lossamoilgt For half a century, the legislature has had this our citizens, than all the litigation connected with the subject under its fostering care, and has failed to other four-fifths of the realty of the State. Questions grant adequato security. The people appeal not from of titles of forty years staiding would sometimes be Philip Drunk to Philip Sober, but from the legisla sprung upon innocent purchasers, and they would be ture to this Convention. turned out houseless and homeless upon the world. I hope the appeal may not be in vain, but that we He hoped this section would be considered worthy of may settle the vexed question, and in the language of a place iln the Coustitutiun. our titles, foreer. Mr. ARCHBOLD was favorable to what seemed to....Mr. NASH thought, if the gentleman would scru bs the policy of this proposition. But, he feared that its. tinize his amendment, he would perceive, that instead 4 6"a OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 3. of benefiting, it would make the law even more ob jectionable than it was now. As the law now stood, twenty-one years peaceable possession would give a title, and a good one, although the possessor might not have had any show of title before. But the gen tleman's section savs the individual must have quiet possession, and a title thereto, in order to make him quiet in his possession. Hle had supposed that, if a man had a title, those twin brothers, Johni Doe and Richard Roe, might help him into possession; or, if he had not a good title, they mighlt dispossess him. He considered that a statute of limitations, would be a queer thing in a Constitution. Mr. STANT'ON would go for a well digested pro vision of this kind; but this was worse than nothing. He was satisfied with the Statute as it now stood; except that it did not run against out-standing gov ernment patents. Mr. McCORMICK moved to amend the amendment, by striking out therefrom, these wortds: "and title thereto." Mr. STANTON. With that amendment, the sec tion would authorize a person who had been in pos session as a tenant, acknowledging the title of his land-lord, to hold the land himself, after twenty-one years. Such a provision ought to be framed with more care. Mr. McCORMICK'S amendment, was disagreed to. The question then being on agreeing to Mr. PAT TERSON'S amendment, Mr. PATTERSON demanded the yeas and nays which beino ordered, resulted-yeas 32, nays 58, as follows:. VEAs-,Ieessrs. Blair. Cabill, Farr, Florence, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman, Hunt, Larwill, Lidey, Manoe, Morris, McCor mick, Orton, Patterson, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Au glaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Taylor, Thomp son of Stark, Tom nsliend, Warren and President- 3M. NAYS-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blickenscierfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroil, Chambers, Collings, Cookl, Curry, Cutler, Dor sey, Ewart, Forbes, Gillett, Grahamr, Green of Ross, Groes beck, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Horton, Hlum phreville, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkiwocd, Larsh, Lawrence, Leecti, Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, More head, Mc,loud, Nash, Iorris, Otis, Peck, Quigley, Riddle Roll, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith ( f Warren, Stanbhry, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Chlampaign, Williams, Woodbury and Worthingtono-o58. So the amendment was disagreed to. Mr. NASH moved to further amend the Report, by adding at the end of the Preamble, the following: "SErc. -. The powers of Government shall be divided into three distinct departments-the Legislative. the Executive, and the Judicial; and one department shall never exercise the powers of another, except in such cases as are provided for in this Constitution." Which was disagreed to. Mr. LEECH moved to further amend the Report, by inserting after the word "reform," near the en d of the second section, the words. "or abolish." Mr. LEECH said that the section which he proposed to amend, asserted that all political power is inherentin the piople-that Government is instituted for their equal protection and benefit, and that they have the right to alter or reform the same, whenever they may deem it necessary. In all this, he most heartily concurred; but the section, he said, did riot go far enough, in asserting the rights of the people, with regard to the Government. He contended that the people possess an inherent right, not only to alter or reform their Government, but also, to abolish it, and to establish a new Government, whenever they may deem it necessary to t promote the general welfare. The Declaration to l American Independence-that immortal document, of o which every true American feels justly proud, and which has call ed fo r th the admiration of the frienids of freedom, th r o u ghout the civilized world, asserts that wheneve r any for m of Government becomes deos tructive of t he ends for which G overnments areinsti tuted, "it is the right of the people to alter or to ABOLISH it, and to institute a new Government,, lay ing its foundation on such principles, and organ izing its powers in such form, as to them shall setean most likely to affect their safety and happiness." His amendment, he said, was in harmony wit h this Declaration, and was declaratory of a self-evidernt truth which should find a place in the Bill of Rigslis. Mr. LEECH, the question bei ng Hupon agreeing to the amen dmed n t of t hat gentleiman, demanded the yeas d t f and nays, and the same being ordere d an d takenr resulted yeas 50, nays 40, as follows. YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Gahill, Cook, Dorse y, Farre Forbes, Gray, Green e of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hati Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Hootm-an, Humphreville, Hulnt, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, Noriis, Orton, Patterson, Quiglev, Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, Saw. yer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark: Warren, Williams and President-50. NIAYs-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Car roll, Chambers, Collings, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes Horton, Hunter, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery. Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Swift, Townshead, Vanice of Champaign Woodbury and Worthington-40. So the amendment was agreed to. Mr. LIDEY moved to further amend the Report. In section 7, in the amendment of the same, strike out the wort "man" and insert in lieu thereof, the word "person," which was agreed to. Mr. GREGG moved to further amend the Report by striking out of section 15, the following: — in any civ il action on mesne or final process, unless in cases of fraud," which was disagreed to. Mr. REE.MELIN moved to further amend the Re port by inserting in section 17, after the words "hol. ors or," the following words, "special or exclusive irm munities." Mr. REEMELIN said this provision was only to operate prospectively, so that any exclusive privilege or title, hereafter conferred by the General Assembl5 would be void. He hoped the Convention were now prepared to insert into the Constitution this principle of equal rights. As the section stood, without this amendment, it did not mean anything. There were no such thing as hereditary titles in this country; and he supposed nobody would object to the title which any foreigner might choose to wear, who might come to reside amongst us. But the real danger to be guard ed against, was the conferment of exclusive privileges and exclusive emolument. Mr. WORTHINGTON objected to the amend ment, on the ground, that it would preclude the Gen eral Assembly from conferring any distinction upon an individual who might have rendered extraordinary public service in the face of difficulty and danger. Mr. REEMELIN. The amendment certainly could not prevent such a thing. Mr. ARCHBOLD would go as fair for whlat was real Democracy as ally msan; but he was really apprehensive that there was "'a cat at the bottom of this meal." He had three objections to it. Hfe did not understand it himself. He did not believe the gentlemana from Hamilton, [Mr. Rr. EMELI,] understood it; nor did he be. |lieve it was understood by any gentleman upon that floor. [Laughter.] 466 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Mo.NDAYV, FEBRUARY 3. enjoyment of political rights; but hlie supposed the Convention intended to excludle them. He desired to fix the meaning of the section, and niake it agree with t the rest of the Conistitutioin. The question beiliZ uipoii striking out the words t "inherent in the people," Mr. WOODBURY demanded the yeas and nays, which being ordered, re.sulted-yeas 7, nays 8.3, as followls: YEA,s-Messrs. Cook, Farr, Hootmran, fHuniphreville, HFunter, Mitchell andSwift-7. NAys —IdMessis. Arclihold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates Blair, Blickensderei, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Cbanhbers, Collings, Cutler, D)orsey, Ewart, Pelorence, Forbes, Gillett, Grahliam, Grav, Greene of Defi ance, (reen of ooss, (regg, (roesbeck Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins. Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Horton, Hunt, Johnson. Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawre nce, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Maneon, Mason, oMorehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Orlton, ()tis, Patterson, Pe ck, IPerkins, Quigley, Rauney, Reem elin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott ot Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, -mith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton,'tebbins, Stilwell, Stickuey, Struble, Swan, Taylor,'I'hompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Champaign, Warren, Williams, WoodLbury, Wrorthington and Presidenit-83. So the motion to strike out was rejected, and the amendment was lost. Mr. LARWILL mrnovedto a'nendtlie report, bystrik ing out the 12th section. Mr. DORSEY moved to namend, by way of perfect ilmg the section proposed to hlie stricken out, by adding at the end thereof, these words, "and no conviction shall work corruption of blood, Inor forfeiture of es tate." Mr. WOODBURY moved to amend the amendmeit, b.y adding at the end of the samie, the werds "or ser vices;" which wvas rejected. Mr. DorPSEv's amendment was then agreed to; and tthe question recurred upoii striking out the section, Mr. TAYLOR regarded the words which had been o iinserted in the section, as entirely unnecessary; be cause the forfeiture of estates and corruptioni of blo, wer e entirely obsolete in this country; so much so, that a (leclaration ot this kind ought uot to be elevated to a place in our bill of rights. He liid heard a gleat deal of dise,ssion of late, uip ori tlhe subject of prisol discipline, the manner ill which convicts should be emnployed, alnd the effect of t turiiiii, them out upon the c, mnnunity; and had thought. that the time mlight come when transportation for crime would be. legitimated in this COUltry. TGpoin wThat principle did the law immerse a convict in prison? Was it not upon the principle, that the cr i mninal had forfeited his right to mIingle in society? If so, then transportation would certainly be more humane than incarceration. Transportation for crime in Great Britain, was fast taking the place of the penitentiary; and, it might be very - naturally aiticipated, that, at somne future period, colonies would be established for the transportation of convicts fromi the United States. He couid veryv easily uniderstaind how it was under the old feudal system, whichi gave birth to the common law, that it became a valuable immunity that the citizeti should not be trausported beyond sea; but 10o suCl reason, or necessity, existed here: and he believed that the final s olutiobe of every difficulty connected with tbis whole subject of prisonl disc~ipline, mlight be seen inl the present experimfent of Great Biitainl transporting her convicts to Australia. For thesed reasonls he was in fiavor of strik ing ou t. Mr. DORSEY w~as opposed to strikinlg out, becauseo it was amlongst the righlts o~ our citizens that theyr should not be transported out of thle State. The rea. so,ning of th~e gentleman from1 Erie, (Mr. TayZro,) Mr. REEMELIN was villiing to modify the ameh~d inent, by inserting the word "or," after the word "4init llnities." Mr. ARCHBOLD. The ground which it covered was too exteinsive. It might prevent the rewards anid hotiors which belonged to military men, or it might even prevent the hire of a witness, or the inicorpora tion of a town, village, or city. Mr. STANTON. Would it prohibit the Legisla ture from granting exclusive rights to sell spirituous liquors? Mr. REEMELIN. Yes, it would exclude that. [Merriment.] Mr. LARSH. If the amendment would cut away the privilege which som e enj oy ed of being bor - rich whilst others were o orni poor, h ie would suppor t it. Mr. REEMI EL1N could not see anything to appre hend from the adoption of th e amendmelnt. The s am e language had b een ad pted i n t he Constitution of Indiaana. Th e difficuilties suggested by the gentleman from Monroe, [Mr. ARCHROLD,j were wholly imagina ry. The privileges to whihh that gentleman referred were all geaneral privileges,-not exclusive. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE did not know that there was anything wrong i n the amendment. It miight be right, or it rnight be wrong. HIe protested against be itg called upon to vote uponu an important asiuertd meilt, without opportunity for its examination. It struck him, upon hearing the sect ion read, with this modification, that it would almost abolish the civil gov ernment o f the Sta te. Ittseemed to him, that, literally construed, it m ight evens prevent our judges from the performance of duties assigned them by law. He did rot say that such was th e intention of the mover. But that gentleman had said enough abou h at wat he did in tend b y it, to iunduce him to vote against it: and that would be the only saf e course for him. Mr. REEMELIN demanded the yeas and nays up on the adoption of his arnenidmenit, and the sarmie be ing ordered aud taken, resulted, yeas 36, niays 56, as follows: ~AS —1MCSSrs. 3Blair, Cabill, Fart, Forles. G-nee e of I)efi a Gme,-Geg, e ie,-e soi, t]],~otiman, H uInt, Kifg. 1jil, Lawr-enc(-e, Larwi l, L Lidey, Marion, Mitchell, Nrris, (),ton, Pattersoni, Perinils, Quligrld', Raunley, keentaelin, Saw yer, Scott of A,[tdaize, Setters, Stebb irs, Siicbey, Slruble, ifit',, aylor, Thomp,)soni of Stark,, Townsbien~d, \:oo,liuly anti Presidenlt —-6. iNAys —.Messrs. Archh,,o' B.(rlme, Barni't of AMonigonmery, 3ates, Bennett, Blic kensdet,ttr, Bro,wn ot Attlens:-, Browni ot ('a-ro.l, Cihatist,ers, Co1illgs. Cook, Cutrry, Cultlen, Do,sey, Ew,ar,t,, G-atiatia, Gi-a,, Greeni (of Ross, Groeesbeck. Haml.iltoni, flard, Hawkins, Hlitchicoc-ki of G;,au,,,,a, Ho~lmies, Holt, HorIton. Humphreyile,Hunter, Johnisonl, Jon)es. Kenniionl, Larsh, Leadbetter-, Mason, Morehead, Morris, ileCotud, Nashi, Otis, Peck, RidId(!e, Roll, Scott of Harrsoji, Simlith ot' gH 2[lan(l, Si,ith of Warreai, Sl;anbt)ery, statiton,.'til w,e. Swan T'h,ompit~soni oft Shelby, Vancef CWampaign, artenii, Williams and Worthliinzton —51. So the amendment was agreed to. Mr. WOODBURY moved to further amend the Re port; in sectron:2, line one, by striking out the words "is inherent in the people," and inserting in lieu thereof the following: "under this Constitution is inherent in the white niale citizens of the United States, residing within the State, of the age of twenty one years." Mr. MASON demnanded a divrision. The qu. estionl then being onl striking oult the words "is in~herent in the people." Mr. WOODBURY said he de~sired to makie thle wording of this section rnore definite. Ats the section now stood, it might be possible for somne per sons to) mlistae their rights undfer it. For examtple, he did nlot w-ish the females and colored people of OhioJ to t.hink that they could enljoy anly political righlts, ulnder this seerichl, if such were not the purpose oi the C:onvention. He would himself, be willing to admit femnales to the, 31~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 467 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, FEBRUARY 4. from the example of Great Britain could have no who takes up and publishes areport against his neighweight, on account of the vast difference of the cir- bor, should be first satisfied of its truth, knowing that cuinstances of the two countries. he has no right to injure an honest man by his publica But there was another reason why he was opposed to tion. Moreover, if such a mistake should really occur, striking out. He intended, before they were done with the circumstances would all go in imitigattion of the the amendments to this bill, to introduce to the notice offence, and probably, hut a nomjinal verdict would be of the convention a section, which should have for its rendered against the offender. direct tendency the transportation of certain persons Mr. HOLT'S amodndment was rejected. within the State of Ohio, beyond its boundaries, and The question then being on the motion of Mr. he did not wish the transportation of these persons to HIT'CHCOCK of Geauga: be at all connected with the idea of transportation for That gentleman demanded the yeas and nays, whiich crime. being ordered, resulted-yeas 24, inays 68, as follows: Mr. STANBERY suggested another reason why Y\AS-Messis. Bu'!iee, t Beett, ickensderfer, Cabltl, Fiarr, the section should be retained. It would protect the G ay, Had,a [awkiis, eo Heersol, Hitch(ock of G,aug,a, Holt, citizens of the State of Ohio from transportation to H111(II Lac La, Maso, Nt((cl,M Corm,,ick, Nor,ris, Ortoni, Sawyer-, TIaylor-, Wor,thi-,lgtoni and, other States for trial. Such had been its effect under P 40lck Sawye. 1-.0 ad the old&nstitution, and he gave illustrations. NAYs-.lessrs. \fold, Barnet of Moitgonery7, Bates, Mr. LARWILL now asked and obtained leave to B'air, o ro f Athens. B:own of Carroll, C;iaGitoe-s, Cowithdraw his motion to strike out the twelfth sec Crv titl6, Dorsey, En.-at,' e, G l!ett. G atian, Greenoe of Defianlce Giee,- of Ros., G c, LIBEL. G.oesleck, Haiilton. ltolIe, l[Hooltiati, Hoto Hut, Hllit (jer, Johnlssonl, Jonles, RKennlon,, Kirkwood, l,arwil, Lea(llieier, Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga moved to further Li(le, Mao, Morelal, Morris, M(Cod, Otis Patamrend the report, in section eleven, in the last part of o,-so Pek, Ctt0i',, Laileylil, t idfe, I l!, S,oit of H Scot of' Auzai ze, Sel14e,s, of H,_tdaid, the same, by striking out the following words: "and SlSJith of ar(, Sale, Staltol, Stebs,Siel Stickwas published with good motives and for justifiable | ier, SVail, S wan, S wift, Tlio:l.s,,I of Sliellvy, ends.'" Tho,:,,pso,l o' Stark, Townsleret, Vance o ClhlamIpaitn, WVa,-ien. Mr. NASH said this section, as reported by the WilliaSo and Woo(tul-68. standing committee, was only a slight modification of Mr atndient was rojcte d standing ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Mr LAWRLENCE moved to further amend the rcthe provision of thle old constitution. But, if this r L adding at the d of sectio the folroiamer.ndment were to prevail, it would admit of a iusti- prtbg t e en o sect the *' "an~d to alter, revoke, repeal, or abiolishi by act of t lie fication for publishing the indiscretions of youth, which General Assermbly an-y gr,alit, or law, conferring spe..,. > I ~~~~~Genleral Assembly anyv granlt, 01- law, conferring ispe the individual had put down by a subsequent life of cial pivile,e or immunities u y portion of the honesty end integrity. i. I people, which cannot reasonablly be enjoyed by all." Mr. RANNEY was satisfied that these words ought On Ol hich motion Mr. LAW1RENCE, derianided the not to be stricken out. For, without them, he could yeas and ays wch ei ordered, resulted yea .. s | ~~~yeas anld nlays, whilch beingz ordlered, resulted yea~s see very plainly wherein the liberty of the press could 51 ys 41 a fol s y ~~~~~51, niays 41,-as follows: be so emnployed as to gratify the most outrageous malice, with perfect IMPUnity' YEA.s-Messrs. A, chbohtI, Blair, Calbill, Cook, Dorsey, Fatr, with perfect impunity. Forl eI, Greene o f D efiance, Gregg, Groe. sivcek, H~a-, eawv Mr. HITCHC(OCK of Geauga. If the reasoning of' kins, Hndero, tls lt, 1oota1, H,,nrh-revil', hIis friends were true, why punishl the libeller, when he lIHut, Johnson,J, -Kiii, Kirk-oo(, Lavrece, Larw 11II may be actuated by good motives and justifiable ends 11 Lali tl,idev, Nlioi, OrtoOil because he may happen to be mistaken in the matter of A ala iz, Se eIkO'. t.Lis tie. Sti der. eSt,-i'.e Sway, fact? Men might be mistaken as to the matter of fact.'Sw-itt. Tao 1)o, Thioaljso, oif She it;y, 1To0 sollt of Sta,l, They might publish, with the best motives, what they'owtsh(lid, Warnti. aid l'esidellt-51. N-,Ys-Ni-M(:ssrs. Bart~e,',', B,,:-j(,t,t M ngey,B"ts B imsuppose to be true, as they heard it from others; and if oif esr. B irt 11, ( ot 1th e.1 s. B oof'rra omotives and ends were to be regarded, it seemed to him ('lailes, Ctis, C, Ctle, Ewa,-r, Fl,-em(e, Giilett, that gentlemen ought to extend the mrantle of their G alai,0 G i-a. Gre(n of Ross, t litchcock f Gecharity over those who had been thus mistaken. He ala, to ta ter, K ei La,sh, Mason(, Morehead, oicCloid. McCormick, Nsh, Otis, Peck, 6cott of knew' and admitted that there were such things as mat- H'rriso Sitsh of tffi, Sti ofW;rren, Sttiery lers of fact being published, ronl a feeling of pure S al,to, Stil-ell, Vance of Cliamipai;g,t Wi1.ia1s, WVorthlingmalice. But he had always thought, that, in a pros- to, anld MVoodlm'u —41. ecution for libel, the defendant was justifiable or not, So the ameldinent of Mr. LAWPRENCE, was adoptaccording to the truth of the statement in the publica- ed. tion. In an indictment for libel, as well as in a suit for Mr. MANON moved to further aimend the report by libel, it was the truth, and nothing but the truth, by adding at the end of section 18, the following,'-no which the individual could be justified. Such had ever taxes shall be leviedin this State upon any profession been his idea of this matter. or occupation of any kind." Mr. HOLT moved to perfect the words proposed to Pe)dingl which * on motion of Mr. LIDEY, the be stricken out, by striking out the words "with good Cotin,entiori adjouIrned. motives, and." Mr. H. said there might be a gr,-at many cases of ONE HIUNDRED AND FIFTH DAY. publications for justifiable ends, though an enemy TUESDAY, February 4, 1851. might make the publications even from malicious mo- 9 O'CLOCK, A4. -,. tives; still, if it were with a view also to thie public prni. benefit, it ought not to be punished. Mr. COLLINGS said it was difficult for him to con- inyor by Rev. Mr. Jewell. ceive how an individual publishing an article ag' Mi FLORLNCE presented a petition front J Eall his neighbor, in which the public had an interest, could and fifty-four other citizens of Pickaway coulity,pney fail of showing sufficient evidence of good mnotives o ink- that a clause ho inserted in thle inew constitution, aioss part. prohtbiting the Legilsiature from passing any law' le Although not strictly in order, he desired to make a galiztafficinspirituous liquors, ewhich onmotion, s ingle rem ark in answer to the hypothesis of the gen- was laid on tShe table. tlcman from Geauga, that the llibeller should be exs 1o.. ec, if he had been inistakeni. Certainly tltC individual f. o5 James Meecker, and thirty sicx other citizens of 468 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, FEBRUARY 4. I Well Mr. President, the time has been, and not very Shelb.~y county,, onl the samle sub'iject, which on mnotionl, ~hc oy coun~y, On'nlo ng ago, when men were as much astonished, and as ,vaslaid on'the t mc presented a 1)etitton frommuch horrified, when the i.)roposition was first made Mr. BLICKJEN DERFER presented a pe tithon frot tI set the body of men free from the claims of creditors. \~ailliaiii Gibbs, and seventy-tmree osber cit izens o But on yesterday, Sec. 15, which is in these words: "no Tuscara~a~s country, on the same subject, which on.proipioI :motion was refeiied to the select eommittee on the persoi shall be imprisoned for debt in any civil action or mesne or final process, unless in cases of fraud,"was subject of retailing arde sipassed by a laree vote, and we have thus determin 5ir. PECK presented a petition from Davis Harris ed, that ' ed, that the body of man shall no longer be a a(1 thirty -six other citizens of Belmont county. ont :lle same subject, which on motion was referred to the security to capital, for debts. Thus sir, we have ad select committee on the subject of retailing ardetit vanced, by the force of public opinion and we have jutiL put into the new Constitution a principle, that On m otifi of Mr. MANON, the convention took could itot or at least did not find a place in the old On andooii But while we have advanced, oIther portions of the ;p t]ie report of the committee on the Preamble and world, have stood still, and there are now places in the Blill of Rights. The question pending, being on agreeing to the world,wherethe body of the debtor constitates securi nendinent of Mr. MAN ON, to wit: Add at the end ty for the creditor, and when men would stare asmuch f section is, the following: at Sec. 15, which}I have quoted, as members around me ~No taxes shall be levied in this State upon any do, at the motion I have had the honor to submit. Sir, nrofessbein or occpation of iny kithids SI Jhave an abiding confidence, that the progress is ,r:ofession or occupation of aniy kind." Mr. MANOT onl1eave, withdi-ewxv his aiiieiidntowards less Government, end that the next Constitu M, r. GRfANONSB K movedo further amend th tion that is made in Ohio will have an amendment to 3;Jr. GROESBECK mtioi~ed to furtl-ier arnen the Sec 15, such have proposed, and that thuse port, in section 7, where iii the middle of the s as I one lhese words occur, "is religious test shall be required part of the uacehinery of government and one of ,ts a qualification for any offiee add after the word mischief principally now, oill be withdrawn. The men of Ohio we have declared free from the rapacity "Ntr shall any person be render ed incompetent to of creditors —our posterity will declare the indepen!:je a witness on account of his opinions on subj de uce of credit f,on Justices of the Peawy constables T~f religious belief, but nothing -herein shall be co ad lawje-s. s:rued to dispe~se with oaths and affirmations." To me it leoks absurd, to call in the whole parapher. Mr'. REEM JIN moved to flrth er amend the amend- naia of law oii a contract, which the original parties ient, by insertling'after the word "witness," the woids nimade among themselves and which they, when they made it, kept str'etlv secret. Yea, they would have considered it an insult, for any body to interfere. But a contract thus secretly made, often foolishly made The questio~ then beiug on:Vlr. GROESBECK'S [ often the mere res,ilt of craft on one side, and of sim Mr. RAN\NE~ demanded the yeas and nays, which!plicity on the other, we the people must institute were ordeied, and resulted, veas 77, nays 13, as fol- Courts to enforce, for all this must we keep up Jus tices of the Peace, Constables, Lawyer,- Courts, Sh'r iffs, and all the other paraphernalia of Justice. A ns os. Carcod Bahee, BC iieti B airi, Brown rather expensive piece of machinery, for so small a E i,'t.rr, 1ic}ee.Gil ett, G aliaie,iee o f upefiancer i' ttc ) s ez,. Hawkins, He oder c, Suppose we repeal these matters and thus simplify of ai H evite Ha' H,t',i, our Govei imetit, suppose we say hereafter, that as j;~rw" L:esll~ e:, I idcy. L()11(, Mloi, Kse,t, en trace with each other, the only certainty they shall have, is the individual character of the man they (}a,Oils, tPatterson, Pvek, (4ai,,tley, Raiiiiy, Reeiiiii deal with. What will be the result? One effect it Si, Sawye,'v Sc-,ott of H arrison,, Scott of Auisize, Se'le's, will have at once, fiat rogues, however rich, will have iotii ci ""Tar'Oa~h~iup~i of W. i o credit. —while honest men, however poor, will get '?:itp._ f:k, Vance of C lai, Warren, W illia.' Wi credit. Punctuality in payment will become a virtue, Wio.V ciris,, Worthiii(oti a.,-d Presiden.t —7. a neeessity,-everv man will have to pay his honest -Meo Baruci oBait iie,,.'de,bt, or lose his credit. Persuasive honor will ac eorrnitliHsh in the human breast, what law has hitherto bunglingly and very partially accomplished,-and if S',lie a nImendet vs adopted. under tire new Constitution, I were to draw up a bill M McCOiRMICK moved to further amend the re- for the repieal of all laws providing for the collection of p)rt bx adding as an additional section,the follow'iC' debts,-we having adopted a clause already, that the "Eanh fanily is entitled to becoiye and,be possess- true object of a bill should be stated in the title, I would el of a ini'e w,ich sll' e exempt from sale, for call it a bill to secure credit to honest men and to deny ',he jpayiioi',if deos or diucliarge of-liabilities arising it to rogues. -f;'ii c~,~',rac[." We need not suppose cases to show that such would be 5t:'. RE.;~I~i' IN m,ve i t) antend the amend- the inevitable result of the reieal of the collection laws. n~eu; [ Mr.'icComuRcx'b,y adding at the end Now, for itstanee, in the purchase of a horse, two indi. ;lerc,,i the fuliowing'd viduals wish to buy the horse, the owner wants to and "'Ano the Gen.era! Assembly may repeal all laws must sell, as he co, a not watnt to feed him any longer. providling fur the collection of all debts contracted Both have no moneysbut the one is reputed to subeeqiaent to suca repeal, when the credit or trust is' be rieh, —the other is iktown to be poor, —the rich voluiitarily conferred." man is known to b~ rather tricky, —the poor mans M~r. lP~E~'HLtN said, that the proposition he had is proverbial for his hionesty,-I ask which will 'ust had the honor to sue~mit, akthough not a newv onie, fret the credit, under our present laws? —we answer, was evidently striking the Conveiitio'n with some as- the rich man. P~ut~repeal the fawse and both stand up'.cnishmeint; and he had no doubt some of tht niein- ont equal terms, the poor man will then get the horse,' i'c-~ were horrified at th~e very idea of actinug credit since his credit is as good as that of the rich nian. '/S-e. Thus, sir, one of the advantages, that naow accrues to 469 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 4. property, will be taken away, and credit will be what it should be, the result of individual rectitude, punctuality and honesty, and nnat of property. I may b e told, that to r epe al our collection laws would result in a denial of credit to our merchants in the east. In reply, I affirm, tha t not one dollar of credi t is now c onferr ed upo n our merchan ts with view to our collection laws. In all cases w h iere there is any fear ofhaving to resort tocollection laws,the credit is enti rely refused. T he re, then, we really have the state of affairs, which would be to some extent, the result of a repeal of the collectio n laws, anl I aver, that there (in tae east) the atques. tioIr is r eally only as to the punctualiy, business habit s and promptitude of our merchants, and not as to our collection laws. With these few remarks, I resign the fl oor t o my friend from Monroe, (Mr. ARCHBOLDI,) w ho h as been anxiously waiting for it for some time. Mr. ARCHBOLD. The gentlema n fromn H amilton goe s into an exarAinatione of principles, but lie does n ot go b ack fa r enough. He does not go b ick to the first principles. Men enter into society and constitute Judges for the sa ke of the pea ce. Government is a mere agency for keeping the pea ce. If we repeal all collection laws,credits wil l still b e given an d creditors will still, at times, be disappointed and deceived. Credit is nowt dependent on personal ch aracter. No man, fit to manage property, entrusts it to any person wi th e ep tai o wr i exet the expectation of suig him. He expects the contract to be fulfilled. But contracts are often brokein and so thev wil l be in the new state of th ings, proposed by the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. Pc a1"w-M LIN.) Then the creditor will go about to enforce his c ontr ac t in the Court of Honor, having no other tribunal to resort to. He will exclaim against his recre ant debtor as a bad man-a dishonest nianl-a treacherous miane, in one word, a kn ave. This prosec ution, in a Court of Honor, the debtor will regard as a n atrocious injury. his passi ons will b e infldaied to the unrost. He will meet the plaintiff in personal renlcounter —they will se ttle the controversy "fist and scull," i"club or dagger," "tbovie knife or butcher knife," a s the case mav happen. This seems to me to b e the inevit able c onsequence. Men wh o have no commdon judge will settle their c ontroversies by brute force as kest they may. If s ocie ty becomies so advaniiced as not ho tbe wiling to see personal disputes settle d p eaceably befo r e a Judge in a court of justice, it must consent to see them s ett led by personal conflict in the cour t of ju dg e lynch! I am well aware that our collection l aws, as well as ou r laws for the enforcement of contract s are exceedingly defective; yet they answer one valuable puapose-they preserve the peace of society —they act as a kind of safety valve or escape pipe. Mlen having a court to appeal to for the redress of grievances do iiot.take the execution of the law into their own hands. Society is not horrified by theexhibition of personalbroils,com tentions and bloodshd hed The peace iaispreserved and this is the great end of society, other purposes are subordinate. Mr. A-RCHEtOLD added! in substance, that he was in favor of a considerable exemption of personalty and realty, in behalf of the unfortunate debtor, for he would make the law speak the voice of huimianity. He would not suffr the lawt to do that which no0 humanate mlan -wouldl do, but he thought that much more stringent laws should be enacted to compel di~shonlest debtors to yield ulp the surpluls above the legal exemption for the payment of their debts~ Genltlemen^X vould not find him, (Mir. A.) engaged in3 the foolish task of defenldinlg our collectionlas XX. They give great acid u,lljust a-dvantageis to) dishlonest and unscNash, O)rton, O:ti~ Patterson, Peck, Perkains,'.Quigiey, lhanney, Rtiddle, Rcl~ Sawyer,,Scull of Harrison, ~ceott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smlith of Highland, S~mithl of Warrenl, Stanbery,.Stanton, Stil,;~ell, Swanl, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Thom~pson. o~ Stark, Vance of Chamxpaign, Warren, Williamls, Woodbury, Worthington and President —2. So the amendmnent was rejected. 470 0111OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuESDAY, FEBRUARY 4. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. himself a home; and he who has secured to him, M'CORMICK: against all contingency, a honme worth five hundred or Mr. McCORMICK said he felt very doubtful wheth- one thousand dollars, can never be reduced to that ab er the arerui,ment which hie had proposed in the colt- ject condition of dependance which may fall to the lot vention would prevail; nevertheless, hlie had felt it to:be of those whose last cent of property is exposed to his duty to offer it, in order to produce in the intstru- be taken from them, as the consequence of some act of nient to be created by this body, that perfect tiniformi- improvidence or folly. ty, equality and symmetry, which all admitted to be The adoption of a proposition like ti-he one I have sodesirable. The object of this convention, in the offered, will do another thing. It will put an end to business in which it is engaged, is to lay the founda- that system of small credits, that annually destroys its tions of the government, and to declare the principles tens of thousands of men of small means. It is not the upon which it is based. The power of the State is dis- great credits between men of wealth, that are danger tributeo into its several departoteiits-a legislative, a ous; but it is the small credits that eat tip the small judiciary and an executive, and the severat rights and men. Weak minded nieo are seduced into debt, not privileges of these together with those of individual because they want the article, but because it can be citizens are set forth, for the purpose as far as possi- purchased on credit. The ainount at length has to be ble, of preventing striking inequalities in the condi. paid-it is collected by law,thle debtor's farm goes to a tions of men. forced sale, and his family is left homeless. He had, however, little expectation that his proposi- Sir, the practice of credits is a great evil. It begins tion would iiieet a fate any more favorable than that with the child-the boy —he grows up to manhood which had been, a few days since, awarded to another buying on credit, selling on credit, until, in too many one of similar character, still he felt impelled to pro- cases, as the result of too frequent a resort to credit,he vent it. It was but yesterday that a gentleman, of- is buried in the slough of insolvency. It is with these fered a section, which be proposed should be incorpo- views that I have offered this amendment. Gentlemen catred in the bill of rights, to be inicorporated in this may say that is not a proper provision to go into the ,oti.titatioti, which proposed what no man seemed Constitution-that it can be settled by Legislative en willing to oppose, and claimed the right to repeal what actmenet, &ec. It is true the Legislature may do it,and 10tao taii ever desired to create. it may uindo it. I hold that the rules and laws regu I was surprised at thie facility with which the amend- lating the measure of real property, ought to be fixed, nentt was iess+d(-without argutient, anid almost with- and immutable. out remark, and inquired the reason for such a I)rovis- Mr. LEADBETTER. Mr. President, I hardly know .on and for such a vote; anid received for answer, whether I have risen to make a speech or not. But as that the thing -means noltliig" —it will (lo no hurt there have been several speeches made, and all on the land no gt,od, alid will have 110o effct, except as to the one side, it may not be altogether improper for nme to tiiie occupied ini its passage, and the Space it fills upon say a little something on the other, as most questions the journal. Now, Mr. Piesident, I protest against the have two sides to them, and I am willing to admit that fillitig up of this constitution with provisions, whose this is one. And, sir, I have not the vanity to presume O,nly recomriendation is, that they "mean nothing." that any thing I can say upon this subject will e;ther The gentlemaan from Highland, [Mr. PArTERsoN,] interest or amnuse- But my opinions upon this subject, had presented an ameodmeut vhliich provides that having been long formed and well known by a large when real estate shall have been holden, by whatever proportion of my constituency, they might consider t tie, accon)pantied by possessiotn for the period of twen-ti me derelict in duty, were I not to express my decided ty-ote years, that posseessive title shall cut off inquiry dissent to the propositionii of the gentleman from Ad itto the title IFy which it is held, arnd vest absolutely ams, (Mr. McCoaMicKc.) the fee sirriple agait,st all persons whomsoever. But The simple declaration that "tea:h family is entitled this proposition, so palpably rlight, and consistent with to become [possessed of a home," meets with my justice and common sense, was voted down, by the cordial approbation, although the idea is not to me a same convention that voted a clause into thi constitu- new one, nior will it be to this part of the proposition, tioti. because it "iieaiit nothilg." that I shall raise any objections. Now the armendmenet whtich I have offered, does As to the propriety of makiniig this entire proposition mean sornmedl,itg. It has an object in view which most a conatitut;onal provision, I have nothing in particular are0 admiit is t laudable one, atd orie that should be to say; being, as I am, utterly opposed to all proposi secuared if;iossible. 1 say alimost all admit this getie- tions of the kind, either as a constitutional or legisla ral principle, through there are a variety of topinions live provision. The dictates of wisdom and humanity as to the details through which it slouldt be made of- forbid it-it can neither be satisfactory in its operations fective. Ticere have been reasons iii its favor opera. or useful in its results-calculated to injure those whom tive upna my own rrminid, which I do not recollect to you propose to benefit, by restraitling their energies hlave seen or heard rendered by any one else. I thinik and laudable exertions to rise above the frowns of the such a provision will have a tentde-ncy to interest all world. mr0en in the soil, by securing_ to each a home for his It may sound very well in theory to some, and may fainsly, whitch nithercouljld be lostnor alienated as the look well upon paper to others; but while its warmest consequenceof htis vices or his follies. It would increase advocates and most enthusiastic admirers are painting the numberof freeholders, increase the amount of land the grandeur of its scenery aud the glories of its fucultivated -improve the modes of tillage-reduce the ltre greatness —exciting those lively sensibilities of hiumber and qualities of those great landed estates that human nature in behalf of "tlhat untortunate class of are produactive of so much evil and are such obstacles our citizens, who have not a foot of land that they can to itnprovemnent, and would put alt end to the tyranny call their own, il strains of pathos unrivalled, and selof the lauid-holder, so frequetntly exercised over the dom equalled-casting over the mind a dark and melanlandless laborer| choly gloom, this gloom dispersing-rovivified-catch I n this cou:-try, there is a very great equality in the ing the strain —the mnud is instantly transported to tha tandi ng of citizens-scarcely any are enormously high and elevated standard of morals and equality, rich, and very few abjectly poor. The extremes as where laziness, indolence, and dissoluteness, occupy een i l other conuntries, scarcely exist. The true ob- the foreground upon this splendid hypothetical picture sect o t every mlan, ~h standing it life, is to secure to of hu,~ an greatness-have exhibited but little artistic i 471 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-TU^SDAY, F,gBvUAlY 4. skill in the design; having, as I conceive, left off one Why, sir, if I understand the mover right, "st is t',e of the most prominent features neicessarv to the full small credit system that eats us tip an( lestri9~s us, and completion of the picture; and that is a sure and un- not the large debts" —that "it is in part,or the purpose failing plan by which all men of all kinds of habits of destroving this small credit system, that I malethis and descriptions shall be compelled to acquire this amendment." homestead. Suggest to me a plan, bv which all men This being the object(,t I weould] m)ost resp-ectfu,lly,n shall make this acquisition, withoutviolating the rights eI qui're who is to be aff,~cted t heeb,sieiwe a, opt,, of others, and satisf3 my mind that your plan is not only feasible, but comprehensible and practical, and the amendment? l it the mcii If weaunhhe. you shall have my vote; for no man wonldI rejoice more no credit-he man wealth has tb lto than myself to see all metn raised above the demands f,inoss without ca d 4i telest) absolute wait, and an elevation of [norals ove are such that if the er dit ys1em i as it o i ishied, tthey would n~ot, be rraterial,iv affe'ted lere?by degradation of laziness, indolence and dissoluten esas "'But Si-hl,ultiti alo elho~-ii But, for this no provision is made. Even my esteemeda friend from MVloitgomery, (Misr HOLT,) neither ill his a great variety f wry. indivinally and by cor zeal for the cause, nor in the goodness of his heart, has atw il not wsocrrit[o a onv e wlrl ioiii to buy even suggested a plan of acquisition. h iot worth moretilaii fur hundred dolla1s to a pluig of tobacco or a pap.t-r of p~n,without 1ai; Then sir, what is the conclusion that we must come aolgf theia r I map r of pii-s thout 14ii)s down the casi. No maiter wchat ni,,y bo their wans; to? It is nothing more than this: that if a man caii, ol the advailt gel arisC to them they iall tiot or will acqtuire property to the amount of five hundred permitted to iave Anil eiy the i~rivilegea in dollars, he may do it; but no plan is proposed to assist lug aid selIiug, Ir ding lid dealinil, i whoiii iii him in this acquisition, unless the honesty and justice what maniier te e ter wha m anrtey please, as tl~ose t.qen) of greate of the entire proposition, now before us, will hold out wealth t ire privilogid to do Thei S' We are I> the inducement to its p~roposed beneficiaries, that, by make a diatinctini) ill socey zieii and Woil~n, who a hypocritical profession of honesty, they may so nian- are not worth five -inndr oli re to ta age as to procure means from the honest, industrious ken nid or ou r special regarit, a nt capitie of and confiding part of the commninity, and then, claim- takig care of therosel Ike cre of them ing the benefit of this proposed constitutional provi- and not let them t in debt it aiaid if tly do the. sioni, refuse to pay an honest debt, by them dishonestly need not pay. This ci 5s of our eitizeis, will not; created. But, sir, we are told that when a young ma nor do unt thauk ou f, without property, breaks forth from the leadliig strings for them-they - or this 1 peial re of vours for hem-theyre-garil tlhis pa~ternial care of y ours ~on' of his minority, we should hold out the inducement for only a s a matter of i-,ut an him to acquire property, and that fie should not be de- of their rigits aniia,fruit ti ig ien All - prived of it, although he may have acquired this pro- orable and high miniled ii among that perty fromnils neighbors by dishonesty acd misreplre-'I Iworthiy class of our citizens, sho>iid tltis effort to del seatation. Is this the standard of niorals that our at- grade and deprive them of ocivileg(-s whiih othr ei lentioin la-, been called to? Is this the system of inn- joy, become the pecinclont'liw Of the lcisd wil i icis that we are to be constitutionally called upon to your law ini utter abhiorrencee, and..he individual w}ne, teach our children? Are we to teach our children that Ifastened the same ulpoi th~em, wit~h uitter dtsain when they go out frori us, that they shall procure pro iSir, wait until this clas,s ofeourcii; aslk youreta ~ke. perty by any means that will not subject them to the them under your speelii protectioiiwait utit infli~:tions of legal peinalties? Sir, to such a systeri ofcom llie d ii the gai-b of deeradetion, annitt monrals I must enter my solemn protest. But, sir, Itheir inability o r icspaity lo tiiecar- of cannot see whereit this homestead exemption c in beii th en sir it will be tirile for is to li is niler tnefit any main in the acquirement of property, if it is der consideratioi and not till then'Ihis lusluesteaT ];o,t fiimi, and fimn alone, who can procure thre means id llii, cd bns inu, wh ca prcur th nicusexomptiou cud the elvi~si away of the puoblic land;4, are frismn his honest neighbors, and then refuse to pay. two an tie n iaile;iusy of lie ego rcer two,~,f the mlost ver'itab~le Iyunmbu~s of' il~e,ge.- i,ere Such a man niav be seemingly beiiefitted. Sir, thatgull trips to be use( by el her plitA ay young man withl habits of iudustry, with energy of for the purpose of cclirlg votes - Do you character, who is capable of acquiring five hudred desire to teach youin ch'ldreil that tiere is sin difioreuco dollars worth of property, is capable of acquiring inore, betweeii iidustry and idleness-betweeii relyiir, opo aud desires no homestead exemptioi to protect his ac- their own eiiei-gie, and the corrupting londeuici aud quirements; he wants nothing but ai 01e1 fieli and luflueuces, atteudant upoil lookiug up to that gond-ii lair slay in all honest struggle with his fellows through mnent of whicl, they mutit form a component pa,rt, f'or the world. It is insisted, that it will infuse energy and a honie wherein to dwell?TheseI i haibiigs will have, vigor into the poorer classes, if you will adopt a pro- their time and may rice u,itlii 001m niti-,lia'ol vision into this constitution, by which they may know t1em. I am ieiiiidi that his honiesteci i that the property they msy acquire, cannot be sulbject -c D tiutod a part of the platform which was ailsyptee ed to the payment of their debts, honest debts, I su p- P-by th-e democratic party that ncriii,ated Gov. Wo. p)ose. Sir, I admit that I am not capible of understand. That sir, is true —md I stat here 1i ihy ilace, that I,* irig this process of infusion; it i, new to nie; it is alto- the county where I live especially in tiecateris towigether different from that which I have been taugh ships tie greatest.ifeculty their we lad to encouiteC Before this discovery, I believe that parents taught their was this very homies,tead exe.~trutioii. A inoing ouri Get-r children the necessity of cohering to the (lid fashmudmnpplcion-iieslsusysd idcrolo doctrie, of honesty, frugality, pounctuality, ecoisomy, derstanding their ownI rights, waints cud privileges, as sobriety and ludustry, as the best means, not onily ot' well as any others can nundorstand then for tliems gettilig through the woirld, but as the best method of they sic want noise of your ex.mptious or restraints. acquiring property'. Is thcereanythinugin this now process of infusion of energy and vigor, that should luducii Mc. President, there is snot a nian iin all this broc, us to abandon the old 7 If not, then whet is the real Jatid who more deeply syoipathsises with the pooc,wli,> object of the propositionl? For a bettor answer, I am clainms to know their waonts, who is acqiasitoel wivth: forced to take thit of the mover, and of those who have, the difficulties arid onibarrassmenorts wsith which they spoken upon this subject —cud what are they, in coin- have to contesid, nirch hetter than miysoif. Si.r, I konorneclion with tileir argoumonts which I have already met? themi hy sad experience. No mant ever e.;.nosimmcod ic~ 472 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 4. i dividual by his own exertions is capable of acquiring - a quantity of land, and is fool enough to build a splendid palace, this being a fiee country, and the Taioney his o wn, I can have no objections to his benefitting the mechanic in an expenditure of this kind. [Is experience and observation lost upon my friend? Is h e enot aware that the accumulation of property in the ha nds of the 1most wealthy is but, for a short time the property passes into the hands of his children-it does not long remain in the same famaily those boysindwellers of my friends' lo? cabins, some one or the other of them, will inev itably succeed to this tower ing mansion, or sormie one like therm. Sir, w,,ill you legislate against the follies or the extravagalnce of men?i It is the inevitable law of our snatures, a misifortutne if you please, and one of the legitimtate consequences of our being, that men must suffer the consequences of their own errors-their own follies and of their own extravag'ance. I would not subject any family to the privation of be ing deprived of such means as would disable thewol from pr oceedir ng in t hei r ordinary vocations. Every man should hold as much property, exempt from sale on ex(cutione, as woult leave him at libe rty to proceed wi th his work. Anrd before the p assage of the Hofomestead Exe mptio n a law of this State, thee was, ill Inv opinlion a reasonable exemption for all poactical purposes. No crdit or shtould be allowed to strip tahe family of a debto r of the itdispensa ble necessaries of life. Nor Expould I prevent him from enjoying the benefit of such credits as his neighbors m,ght extend to hiFm; i t is a busin ess of their own. I am aware that it is e arnestly insisted, that a repeal of all collection laws, wN~otuld be of the utmost impor tance, that it would not destroy credit, but would benefit credit, for then we should not trust any but those who were adhonorable and h o nest. But we are not adviwised how long it would take befor e we cou ld ascertain who was honest and who was not. Fly opinion is that n-o manl wvotuld live long enough to de term-ninie the question' and before we could ascertain the faet, rite and those around -us would pass off the stage of atction, and a new set come on for trial, and so on until a blear order of things shall take its place. For one, I am in favor of the largest liberty of the individual man, and of his right to his acquisitions. Let himi trade and deal with whom and as he pleases -throw no shackles of restraint around hiims draw no-thling frool one for the benefit of anotlher, but leave all whvlere the Declarationi of Independenlce left us, where the lathlers of our coiiim(m)on country designed to leave us, "free and equal," independe,nt of every legal restraint, except those wvhichl have b(e,eni surrenidered, for the preservation of order and good governitnent of the whole. Mr. REEMELIN. I shall vote for this proposition. Mr. CASE, (iiuteirrupting.) Stick to the platform. Mr' REEIMELIN. I shall. Not to the inere party platform, but to the platform of righ,t, and I assure the gentleman, I do not have to run home every few weeks to get myself upon the platform, or white-washed again. Do right, and then, sir, I am on the platform of the Democracy. Mr. R. then said again that he should vote for this3 proposition, (Mr. McCCoRMICKs,) althoughl, if it had been his ownI, hie would have drawln it differently. He would vote for it, because he believed it was the first grands step toward the repeal of our laws for the cola leetionl of debts. With this viewt, I vote for it, anld with this view, his friendl frond Holmes, to whose remnarks he had carefully listened, would vote against it. For that gendleman had argrue-d much moSe3 against Mr. R.'s proposition, which had alrealdy been svoted down, thanl against tit Ohio ucnder more adve rse circumstances than myself. What little vigor and energy that I possess, w ias in fused under the old plan, iai nd upo n that I have acted. The difficulties in commencing business ill this State are nowt as nothing comp are d w ith the time I ma d e this Stat e the one of my adoption. Then, sir, the opnre way not one d ollar in thi s State wh ere there is a thou sand now, o nnearly so. I could not have succeeded in even pro cur ing a living but for this small credit, nwhich is p roposed to be destroyed. Again, sir. The principle, or the idea once obtain ed, that a po or manari's honest y and ittegritv coionsti tuted his capital, and forme d a part of that instruc tion which parents, iI the days of honest industry, gave their chilre; but n ow, sir, t hethese dayts of steanm, some new system must be devised by which a poor mian, t without energy, w ttitho ut idastry or tor ald, ca n be elevated i e mi arals ald becomne an owner of th e soil. Well, sih, I approve of the invention, if it shllal succeed; for those who have the energy, the fru gality an d the itndustry, do not stand in need of any newa invention to aid them; and I feel satisfied that your homestead exempti on will not chang e t he c har acter of thos who do ot now ma ke a single effort to procure a homcestead for themselves. I camoe verv nealr being caught in this trap of no credit. Seeing the destruction and desolation occasioned bIy the sus pensionl of the banks, and the great indebtedness of the people —many ruined by b eing endorsers-I even senot s o far at a til m le to a dvocate posi te p payment for all thiors at the ti hme. Bu t, upon due reflectiond I could not conceive of the propriety of prohibititng a manr from disposing of his property to whonu he pleas ed, and upon such terms as the parties may agree. Let us see where this entire destruction of all credit will ennd-ywhere does it begin and where does it ter mijinate? If a man engages to work for another for a single day, one or the other m-ust depend uponi the goo d faith and resposibili y of the othe or. Eooraef the nail who labors must t ru st the other to pay him lwh en his day' s works is done, or the loan who hires must pay himo befor le h me om enices, a und t rust to the laborer to p erf orm it. Sir, this credit en ters more tha less into most all of the business trans.-ctiones between man and,,nan. Give men but a fair field, let them deal in good faith one with the other, and if a man violates his plighted faith, giv e u s a good a o od a wholesome provision, by w hich we can compel a man to discharge his honest obligations. This sir, i. all we want, it is all that an honest coimmi-tunity desire. I hold this principle to be true in regard to the laboring1, that class of people who have inothlingy but, their hands, their physical eniergie s for capital, that, if they will woik six days in the week, and go to meeting on Sundays, keep out of taverns and groceries, there is for them more than a living-first a competence a-d then an abundance. -,More than tlhree-fourths of your eldest farmers, the pioneers of this great State camne into it years ago, with but little inean,s, and many of them, without m-ioniey enough to buy a mattock, with families to provide for, they sir, w,ithout either homestead exemptions or restraints upon their dealinrg, are now your men of pr oper ty, and although i am un~acquainlted wXith the circumrstances nose or heretofore, of the members of this Conlvenltion, I wi~ll venture to say, that threef~mrths of this body, commenced liib wXith little or nothing but. their oxwn energies. But ly frienld from Morgan, (Mr. HAwTKrlns,) is in fiavor of this Htomestead Exemption upon the salve principle of the movers because he objects to see one small become proprietor otf lar ge quantities of l ands, he sees a fine splendaid bull dinlg towering overa halndred cabins. Very whell, if an in t tI t a 4 -i "> OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuE.SDAY, FEBRUARY 4. - ces, and far better. I say it is the American princi pie to gradually take more and more power from the governmernt and leave more to the individual man. To trust to men more and more, and to trust less and less - to the law. And the Democrat who rises upon this floor and opposes himself to a proposition to set credit , free as the wind, does in my humble opinion, not know what Democrat means. It is the simplification of government that we want. The freedom of credit from the restraints of law. For such is the complex nature of our laws, that when a conltract is made between two honest men, not versed in the law, if it happens to get into court, it will not stand, it will, ten to one, he set aside by the courts. Bullt let a sharper be one of the contracting parties, , one who is at honme in our collection laws, and the lawr, will always be found ready to do his grinding. Gentlemen talk about abolishing credit. What is the meaning of the word credit? It comes from the Latin credo-"I trust;" "I believe." Sir, our credit system is not a system of trust in man, but of trust in law. It reverses credit: for we say really, I do not trust my neighbor, I do not believe him. I ask you, as an honest observer, to step into any of our courts, and point out, if you can, in any ordinary trial, any indications of trust in man. It cannot be found there. It is all trust in the law. And besides, it might be observed there, that our credit system and our collec tiori laws are but as cobwebs to catch flies —as nets for minniows, but too frail fi)r the strength of the lar ger fishes. That was a mnost inmportat)t, because a most true remark of the gentleman from Moiitgome ry, (Mr. OLT,) this mornig, when he said. "We legislate always for capital, andt not for man, and that it was time to ceas e legislating, and let ma be free." That was a noble sentiralent, corning from a man occupying his position in the Stat;e; and I shall honor him for it as long as I live. Sir, repeal our laws for the collection of d ebts, and man, and with hima - credit, w till be f ree. And I affirm now, that, with all our laws favoring the credit systenm, there is not at last at this day, in the State of Ohio, any real bona fide legitimiate credit. For, when I credit a man, I trust not his honesty or his ptncttuality, for I trust not the man, I trust only his property. I repeat, sir, that our collection laws are a most expensive piece of machinery. Just look at it. In every township we have three Justices of the Peace, and a constable; and twenty or thirty times a year a ury of six mueni is to be called before them, to adju'dicate upon most complex collection laws. We have, besides County Courts. and Courts of Common Pleas, and District Court, and then the Court in Bank. All of these Courts have Clerks, Sheriff, and juries; and connected with them are some eight or nine thousand lawyers of the State, each and all of them drawing a living principally from the proceeds of this m-nost cuimbersome machinery, called collection laws, Is it not, then, a most extravagant and (may I not say?) a most bungling system? I challenge lawyers here to answer me, whether the credit system does really advance the object which is so triumphantly claimed for it, namely: the prom~otion of credit? I say, let alIinlen stand upon the same footing —whether th~ey be rich or poor — let their claimls of credit rest upon their honesty of soull. Let man meet man face to face —neither armed by the law-, and then promptituade, capacity, and honevsty of purpo3se, will be the sure basis of credit —he only ontie that commlron sense will sanction, -and not the law. It is a law of nature and of God, that, if a man is honest, and industrious, and prudent, hie shall enjoy the fruit of his labor. Ont the other hand., it is a Saw motion n ow before us. But much a s he would gene rally pay deference to the gentleman fro m Holmee, (Mr. LEADBFTTER,) still hl e must say, that that gentle man had entirely mistaken the true question. The true que stion is not, whether we shall legislate whether we shall help (redit,-but w he ther our col lection laws should first be simplified and then repealed, and thus give every man cred t who deserves it, and deny it to all who do not. Thus, that legitimate credi t whic h is now lost in the fog of collection laws, will be re-establishe d o dl i ts t rue basls. The question is not, thteref ore, whether this class of men, or that clas s of men, shall be aided, but whether our collection laws interfere with their relative rights; in short, whether our collection laws are right, and whether they answer the purpose of thei r enactment. I unh esitatingly aver, that they h av e not, an d I challeng e ev ery lawyer, and every judg e in the Co gaveiution to meet the. issue, and to say, th at ou r collection laws have failed in the pur p ose of thei r cre ation, and that there is so much cum brous and expensive machinery about them, that any tsare man w ould soon er f orgiv e a man a small debt, than sue bef ore a J ustice of the Peace for its collection. Our collection laws should be denominated,,"Laws in ten ded for the sharpers to fleece honest men with; and to p rovid e for the feeding of J ustice, of the Peac e, and eonstabl es, and lawyers, who calnnot make a liv in g b y honest labor." Sir, I repeat, and I defy contradiction, that the col lection laws have not, and cannot accomplish the purioses marlked out by the gentleman from [-Iolres, (Mr. LA DBETTER ) Step inito a c ourt. and y ou may the re see the Paraphernalia o f Justice, your judges, yoiur juries, sheriffs, c lerks, and the lawyers; look at that poor hodn- eat laborer-he has worked for a corporationb-he has got t o court —he there meets the e g corporation lawyer -he there meets for the first time the intricacy of our collection laws —he is vanquished, and he leaves, cursitig the laws to which he trusted. Again, look at that smniling Shylock-he has brought a poor mani into court -t he poor man's lawy er tri ed to defend him, but ihe finds, that all precautions have been taken, that no loop-hole is left, that the bond is drawn, that the contract mean s thlus and so, and that he is the victim of his own credulity and of collection laws, whose real Jorce he did nor know. Sir, these laws are well understood now, only to serve the purpose of the cunning and the crafty, and thus every honest lawyer will advise hiselienit, if it be an honest claim, to keep clear of them. And such laws we must defend —their gradual repeal is pronounced a humbug —while every body knows that the biggest humbug of our dav, are our collection laws. Every body knows, they al-e but edged tools, where honest men cut their fingers. They are but fetters upon credit, they are but the clogs to legitimate credit, they are exi)ensivo, for- no clumsier contrivance, and more costly, can be contrived, than our collection laws. Tlhe costs exceed its benefits, and il nine cases out of tell, it costs more to collect the debt, than the debt itself. They are riiere;y laws, enabling men to ac"spitefnlly, for they are far oftener used for such purposes, than the leal purpose of collecting a debt. Sir, (he conltin~ued.) repeal these collection laws, ai~d gro on loppinog off all the fo~olish and complex~ machinery of croyemint-ent, and youl will, simplify legislation, until yoll shall comne down to a simple and economical gov~er~nmrent,.suited to the wvant~s of a freei and honest people. This is the principle I go upon. ~, Let credit be free -trulsting to the sense of honesty I in men, rathler than to the law. Let creditor and debtor take calre of themnselves- give to neither the ] handle of the law,J and justice will be donse for often- I 474 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATF},,S-TuEsOAv, FEBnUA,iY 4. of nature and of God, that a man who spends his time in idleness, shall not enjoy the fruit of the earth. But have not our Legislatures gone on to prescribe, in effect, that this higher law shall not exist in Ohio? Have we not said, that whether a man works or notwhether a man be industrious, frugal, and prudent, or not. still he shall enjoy the fruits of labor other than his own. Have we not said, by our legislation upon banking and other corporations, that capital shall live upon labor, even if it toil not, nor spin, no matter how deep it may grind the face of labor? o t I will ask you, sir, whet.lher the rich men in Ohio will not regard this proposition as an attack uplon themn, and their interests? And whether the poor men of the State will not regard it as a means of relief to theniC? I will repeat here what I have said upon a former occasion, that no government in all the world's history, has ever reposed confidence in the people, and in the men with living souls in them, when that peo - ple did not come lup fully to the most sanguine expectations, and show that they were far more capable to manage their affairs, unembarrassed by law, than where the law attempts to aid them. Laws have but interfered and rendered irregular, what would other wise go on regularly and smoothly. Sir, 1 affirml that ninie-tenths of all the evils, litigations, quarrels and heart-b,urnings in the State of Ohio arise in consequence of these follies of the law. And as we shall remove the fetters of the law-as we shall exercise less governinent-just to that extent will man rise in the scale of being in this world, to what lihe was intended to be by nature's God-a mlan-a true man-true to all the designs of Provide Icc-carryiiig out honestly the purposes of life. Away, then, with these cobwebs of the law. Let us have a state of affairs in the State of Ohio, which will allow men to trust each other freely, and not have one man calling iii a judge, and another man calling ill a jury, to initerpose and help him to collect debts voluntarily contracted, and based on reciprocal relations, with which the law has nothing to do. For I will now make a prediction. Though I am not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet, and you may talke own my word, and see if you do not find them verified to the letter: The time will come, when the people of Ohio, and especially the democratic portion of them, will find out, that the only way in whlich they can strike at the tyranniy of banks and incorporated capitalists, and make themselves really free, will be to repeal your collection laws, for what are collect on laws but government machinery, to enable capital to comp el lab or to work for it. The democratic party of tie State —not its present members —but that liveng soul of e den ocracy-that, spirit which lives on the hills, and which diffuses itself over the vallevs of Oliio-that living spirit of dertiocracy —not the'mier e party composed of individuals, not the gentleiuain from Holmes, [Mr. LEADBETTER,] nor myself, nor any gentleman here.-buit the spirit, that will live when we are gone-that spirit will vet embrace this truth, that the unjust privileges now enjoyed by capital canlthrough a repeal of our collection laws. That, andn that alone, call place.A11 mhen in the State upon the same platform of equality. We ask not for legislatioi, either for or against cap ital. We ask not for leglslatioi either for or against labor. All we ask is, that you legislate not at all, that you leave all free. For Labor can live without capital. But Capital starves usiless Labor sustains it. And since I amn upon the que~stionl of Labor and Capi tial, I will call the attention of iiienibers to a casual re niark, which dropped from the lips of the geitleeman from Holmes, (Mr. LEADBETTER ) He said, "that as long a s the law left a imiani free, as lorg a s i t di d not irnp r i son him, and thus left hirrtl to l abor and to worl, so as to pay his debt." That remark was inadvertent, but it shows the workings of mei'- souls, —the freeing of nmens bodies from being security for debt, was then, and is now really only a booni to capital, so that man may work for Capital. Leave the man free, but still keep labor il the chalis,-iii some ineni's nmiinds, labor is only intended to feed and I ay capital. And here let me just remark as we pass alonig, that the fears of those, who think that no credit wil! be givanr,unless we keep up our collection laws, are mere shadlows of irnagination. Sir, Capital can not live upon Capital, unless Labor gives it life by adding living hands to it. Capital is dead, —it is non producing, but with labor, Capital may afford a living to its holders. Capital therefore, place it upon equal terms with labor, must come to terms, it cannot live upon itself, and It will be glad to lend itself to labor, glad to share with the laborinig titan the result of his labor. Repeal the collectioni laws, and both are free, both equal, both have their true legitimate positions. Bnt as long as our collection laws exist, just so long will they favor capital and oppress labor; just so long will capital have an advantage over labor, which it should not enjoy. I have made these remarks, in reply to my friend from Holmes, (iMr. LEADrBETTER,) wit[) whom I genierally agree, but with whom I roust differ strongly in this case. I may have spoken too feelingly, but whent I see men of as strong mitids, as my friend, led astray by falseargumenits, I ackniowledge', I feel deeply and then I s,.eak so. I have nothing to conceal,-I have but expressed my convictions, and they being the reverse of those of mlly friends, I have said so. My path lies, with less Goverinmenit,less power, less nIacIiinery,-I-ess of expense —on the other hand more confidence in man either sinigly or in the aggregate,anid I would have been glad to have had my friend on this as oD most other questions with me, but I am sorry it is not so.,A ell lie has had his say, I have had mine and all [ have to say in the conclusion is, that I holte I am understood, as speaking only on principle annu entertaining tile kindest feelings towards the gentlemiian from. [-oloi es, (Mr. LEADBETTER.) Mr. SAWYER moved the previous question. The question then being "Shall the main question be now put?" Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nlays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 37, nays 53, ta follows: YEAs-Messrs. l rchbolId, Benlett, Blair, Btrown of Carroll - ( ah ill, Cook, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Greeine of Detfiance, Gregg, Hard Henlderson, Ho)tmran, Humphieville, Hunter, Jones, King. Kirkwood, Lidey, Louedon, Mason, Orton, Pattersoin, Quigley, Ralniey, Reemelin, RidHle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, a;ellers, Stebbius,,tickney, Struble, Swift, Woodbury and President-37. NAys- Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blickensder. fer, Brown of Athencs, Case of Lickinig, Citamilrers, Coilings. Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, E wart, Florenice, Grahami,Gray, Greern of Rtoss, Hamilton, Harlarn, Hawki:es, Hitchcock of' Cuyaioga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Horton, Hunt, Johnson, Keinoti, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill. Leech, Leadbetter, MSan. on, Mitceell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, iMcCorrnick, Nash. Norris, Otis, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highlarnd, Sllithi of Warren Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Tlaylor, Thomnpsonf Stark,'I'owislieid, \Vance of Chamnpaign, Warren and Willia msis-53 So the call for the previous question was not sustainied. The question then being on the amendment of Mr MCCoRMICK: Mr SAWYER deomaded the yeas and nlays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 30, niays 61, as for lows; 47 a A; (14;74-' ~ ~ 4; tlnunitv. I mrnaintain, that the highest duty, that can be the proposition, and lie, as I sliold thli'k, would be imn)ose,] upon an Atnericain Legislature, is to see, that one of thle last meni in Ohio, to ble taken by surprise, outr istitution.s are preserved pure and entire in'heir upon the proper constiructioni to be ptlt upoil any principles. The very eclarter of our institutions, neces- propos ition. sarily confers this p)ower upon the Legislature. -Ulder these circumnstancs, I catinot see air, thing But this is the great and cardinal point of difF,'rence tobe gained by rcsi ti, huot iucl to be lost Io begin ted by-siip i reofsidere, ion, bup, auj tsub ectsl between us. These mten affirm, that you can, by cun- in e con ptio of tie i a pol a sbject Iicin thaaead beeutin o fLting,vi debateups subed nitig and artifice, promrpted by avarice, or lust of gal, ic has aeady flly discus,. obtain from tihe Legslatture, an imnprovideit grat, One geistleian whti h hs voted ulp( tliS prOivision wtiich they cainnot nullify and reverse; they cannot is now before the people, canvassinlg fo,r votes to reremove the evil, until they Ihave purcltased(i the lirivil- turn himi again to the place in this Coiive,tiiv on, hi(ht.o egie so to do. Tiis is an absurdity,,thie equal of which, he resiglned, a short tiiie since. TIhat tel:et len'1 deI have never yet seen, or heard, in all my experience. claires hiiself now in faor) of the d,ctrine otf Repeal, I do not propose, at this time, to go fully into an ex- and it is certlain, that we all, who hlave voted( hteretoaminr,ation of the,.loctritie of repeal. I co not propose fore for the rit:iht, have said distilletnctlv, tiat, we iltnl now, to attack the'battleiiients, front behi:ii( which our to stand ip to the lii f iin favo ),f this g.,'at, pi' iCioppotte.nts have leen wonit to vindicate th,ir position. ple, which we regard t,s l1vi, at-, theli f()'tlilio of all But should tihe vote be reconsidered, an: should we lt epubica'i Gove-niieut. Vi]l anty of (,ur p,)li"ic-ie. have an issue lnA:!e up un o01 tle questi(n, I hope it fiieitds w7ho ha(ve at', a tiiiie -voled agatiut thi prtp, will not boe sjchi an issue, as is proposed ythise oiti(ii, say that they do I_t o,ttld 1)y tte righ miserable rien, or, si, r tit idica,ited by the gel.tina of the legislature, to rep,,ial anl-y ct (of iltic)rporatioi. frlo' Fratnkli, [M I.'ANs.BrYj. I ask aelntellel) to or act gra'ntiii,'exclivu e pi-ivitee'? I thiuli tihe-eis comne up, and0 defend thl-eir positions rlatilfully to tale not one who will say tllhaIt. up, and defend tI.e D,irtioioth College case-to defend Mr. SWAN, (interposing.) Does the,gentleina the decision,i theS1re ICout of the Uniled States- mean a-i unqualified ri't,ht to r(,peal a ch.rter" to say, that a chl,rter is a contract, and cannot be Mr. PANNEY. Yes. touched.'Iha't is tile isue, which tle nole soul of| Mr. SWANTI. Well, I do not stand up to that the getitleman from 1ielnout, [Mr. Ka'NON,] would not doct itte aliow iim to escape. Mr. R A'NE. The gAetle an denies it then. I is tte ouly a, that has me,t the iss,ue like a But -twhat is a qulalified repeal'. Does the getlitlenian Iean that o00e-hallf of a charter iilly be repe'aied, and nla~n ttis insteigsent and] mlasterly7 mind spurnled thle inlalflct-3-il ) ll:>,y~~(~e iiai, l'is toi w etsch all an riis ast,cl,t-l nine srte~ tie, the other half left uLiitepeal(ed, or wihat are wfe to un subt, rffug ~s to wf~iehl all I-is associa~tes have resorted, - i C' have resorted, doratirstad by a (1ua lified t'ig'ht (of relpeal? and tooki t,he around, oin wlie!i alon,, a rlanly adversary dMrst ajd by a q unittai f npal gt of would seek to stadl. I t!.itlk, as a general principAle,peal, I me the e~xercise of a power ini a leg'islature, to sayv that the it is so palptable, that the Goveriu-nent should have thi so'at te chart.er of inceorpor-ation- of s-uchi a comrpaniy be, and, right of repeal, that it would not be a proper use of tlhe of iseorpoe atiotl of uch a C()stoley be, and .t.. t'.. X... ~~~thel samle is hlereby repealed, an-d stop) thlere.' time, lurther to spenud it in elaborating the sulbject ne h.B ol, te ter time, ~ ~ Mir RA>JiNL~ 7but wh1at would thec gentlenan I siall vote against this re-consideration; but if it r aiiia t tat toe )0 out a case of from Franklin add to that to maeoiaiaeo slhould be the pleasure otf the convention to re-consider fi rail, tl o le wl qao ..i 1 1. l rr. o t ~~qulalified repeal? Will hew fell us how hes woutld qualiit will be niy desire aed effort to incorporate the wvord .. ~,, 1. I ~~~~fy the powRser? But thenl he denlies, reow, thle righit~. I franchise, thereby nmarkigg and defininig a little m ore t h g i Lot tl-ih li e dete. n tow e i -igt. am glad to find that an issue is made, a little more clearly, that which utay be taken away by repeal. pecific th it as a f das o Geiitliiiei will Ttiese w irds special privileges, are very comprehetnsive, |o be alo o ltt t tl .I)t be able miuclh long'er to evade the issue. and from their acknowledged use of late years, will bet O ,But. my frietld, [,Judgre'Vx~'c~; of' Bublesr coulnty,1 gencra',ly admi'tted to emibrace all the cases he{re desired.. my. [ - o ly d,.;te to~tibaceal th, ass l(-e dsiedwho has m-ade this,- issue befo~re the great ju-ry of the to be miet. They are. perhaps, more clearly expre s sive bef)r te ge. ty f te .o f. e gra.td to' t country, asserts before his constitueonts that li e is one of the ifmuitir es granted tv corporations titane tle s wofthe ii'IniitiltOSe grauted to corporatiot thou the of the fast friends of repeal. But then, he says, you word fr"anchise. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TLEsDAY, FF:RUARY 4. cannot take the property of a corporation without exist without government. The office of Government paying for it. Arid so say we. Brit wat would you is to protect person and property, and not to invade pay for? is the question. We would pay for the prop the riihts of either. And the natural rights of per erty taken in all cases, where the State took any soinis, whether they are a:sociated or riot, are the same. Bit would you pay for what the special privileges The right to icquiire, defitid. and enjoy private prop and immunities wl'fich the land conferred might be erty i a'n rherent natural right of every individual. worth to the stockliolders, if they were permitted to It never has been proposed, by the Democratic party, still go on and enjoy them? He says he would not. or any member of ft, that the Legislature should have If gentlemen are content to occupy his ground, what the power, without a prubic necessity, and full com objection can they have to this provision? Let us pensatloi, to take away the property of individuals, see, befiore we go any further, what it means and wh-at whether in an associated or private capacity-inever. it embraces. It afflrms the right of the people, thr(otghi But in every case they have held, that, all private the General Assembly, to alter, revoke, repeal, or abol- property ought to be protected as all other natural ish any gri ant or law conferring special priveli7es or rights are, and ought to be protected by every just immunities upion a portion of the people, which can- government. And the proposition which has been a not be reasoniably enjoyed by all. It does not com- dopted bythe Convention,and which it is now sought inaud or req,Jire a revocation of any of these' but it to get rid of by this motion to reconsider, affirms affirms that th( people, by their represuentatives, have nothing to the contrary. It does riot touch private the right to do it. In this "Bill of Rights" it. affi;'ms property. There is not the niost distant allusion to this right, as inherent iii the people. When it shall private property in it -no iutimation that private be exerci:ed, and how exercised, is left to those hav- property mav be taken. It deals with those "exclu ing the power to determine. Can any m an say that sivi privileges" aloire, which are created by law for he holds to the doctrine of repeal, and deny this? the benefit of some at the expense of others. It pro What is the extent of the right here affirmed? In the poses to subject these to the power of their creator. first place, it, (extends only to such "special privileges And yet, men can go out to their constituents and and inities" as are conferred by law —t alllows proclarir themriselves the advocates of the doccrine of the law making power to have control over its own repeal, and coiie here aud help vote down such a creattions only-. In the next place, it extends onvl to provision as this! No matter how (oliotis and uunjust s-ruch as are conferred upon a portion of the people, the privilege graiited —no matter bow much it invades aid cannot be enjoyed by all.. I have alreadv said, the rights of the peeple-these iun shrink from thatt it does itot eourbirace everythting that I desire, bit saving, thit wbit was thus -ranted to a few, "with it contains nit,ch that is valuable, and nothing that out iriounev and'witlhotit price," cai be reclaiiimed for anv man, layitgr atiy claims to respect for a populai th(e benefit of all. Iho rights of the people thus goverunreut, o,irht to objectt to. Every law that we gone, arre gone forever. But let us for a irioruent look rely upon to l)rotect us all in the enjoy moot of oui at this provision in, the light of the balance of this, natural rights, may be altered or repea'e. at the pleas my section, which has beeni unanimously passed. It ure of the Leo'islature. But laws conferring special reads thus ill political power is inherent in the piilei'os aiec too sacred to lie touched! What, is it peole. Govemrmini-it is- instittrte(! for their equal pro. that these gentlemen guaid with such fidelity? Where tcctioii aid b(iiefit arid tiey have the tight to alter, are these special privileges that the grieramont con rofitim or abolish the same, whenever they may deem fors upon. favored individuals, obtained? It has notli- it necessmay." in. of its own to give-it is itself lut a, pensioner I think then gentleirin will find that it will be De upon thio boiunty of the people, and all that it can cessarv to go back fi.trtiicr in tlreir reconsideration, and conifer urust be drawn, either directly or indirectly, get idl of all the declarations contained in this sec fromii the proceeds of their industry. So insatiable is tioi, before they can cctisisteutly vote against the pro special pn.vilego that once fastened upon us it is visionunder consideration. Their coursebelies every worse. than the bloodsucker-it never gets its fill, arni one of them. In the first place, it is asserted that is never ready to let go, but constanitly grasps for "all political power is trihiereit in the people." To more. It has cutrsed the world, through all the gent- enact or repeal a law is a1 e exercise of political power. orations that have passed. In one shape or another, To adopt a constitution is a diirect exercise of this it Ias', "fertilized the fie]d., of the favored few, by the poweri arid to paiss an ordinary act of leisilation is sweat of the poor man's brow;" a nd vet, in the re- an ind'rect exercise of the same power, through agents publican Stale of Ohio, iii what has been called the or repc tesenta tives. You affirm that all thi power is niooti of the,rinel,eenth century mn, and men pro- inherent in the people, by this provision; ard evt you fessitri to be Democrats, are cointendirig that thais stta(1 here and coiritend that an act, that has girianted monster ouo'ht not to be suijected to the power, and oxclusive privilegjes cannot be touched bv the body Ibretught within tire (oritiol,(If a free people'Ihat a having all politiczl power, except iupon qualifications part of the political porvet' of the State, aud the most that voii caniinot y-ourselves defire. Political power odious part, may exist ahove thmrn and beyond their has oitiactd the lav, hais crea.tted the "uxclusive privcontrol t But genitlemen see in this provision an as- ileoe" but the saiie political power cannot r epeal it, sertion of the right of repeal. What is repeal? a nrlot abolish its own creation! What absurdity! repeal takes no property that lopgs to the corpora- If ou iare right all political power does not reoiaiu tion. It barely terminates the use of a special privi- wit'h the people, and it is a falsehood so to declare. logo. It, takes tiothing butt'shat i descrrbod in tire As fast and as far as vouir servants have encrchod language of the proposition itself "special privileges upon it, by grants if'exclusive prrviloeaes, von have or inimuiritics " rvhichr liaec boon confertred by law. lost all contittol 0vrt tho sibtect, (or tirore is uto truth It dues nort affec,t any thing beyond this. Wihatevur n somof thotSoloirs that arc sent up totiris Conventlegislative power has conforiod, which proves to be, tion. injurious to' the public interest, may be taken back again by the same logislativo power, upon stici h ttaanisdcae:i joeriunisistiue terms as a just people shall provide. The r ~thlight ttioopes Elpoetonai eei. take private property is rightfully takein from tire leg- ot ee hspoiin~slvdrpt,ai are The right t~~~~~ou auireadoiynrpar its true spirit, all special privilegus will cease islative power. Th ih oaqieadejypo-ad die arvay as an accursed tiring. You are wilting erty was antecedent to all goverriment, and'it may tsatat-' goven.en is insitte fu'h qn 478 OHIO CONVIENTION DEBATESTIJES-TDAY, F'P BRUARY 4. protection and behn(fit of all, but when von are asked all time past hiave shown theniselves exceedingly slow to say that that same governiment shall[ have the pow- to augur. It is as true now, sir, as it wais when the er to repeal such laws as violate this provision, and pen of Mri. Jefferson traced the sentiment iii the declacoufer special privileges upon some, that cannot be ration of iidepeniilence, that the people are disposed enjoyed by all, you refuse to do it. to suffer while evils are endurable, rather than to rise Beautiful consistency that! The benefits of gov- and right themselves. erament oi.,.ghit to be equal to all, hi,t if a few get,! Does rot the history of corporate rapiacitv in this State more than their shiare in the way of special privileges o furnish abundant evidence of the truth of this stateconferred byv law, the people posses,- no power to right conferr~d tv law the people pI se 5 no po~(r to ught ment? Ought it not to all;,y all appreheiisionis of their the wrong —~n~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,ov poer evertafter to mk it a govern the Irong no po ores ci aftci to maktit a go ever doiing injustice to an honest corporation? Time neict of equal benefits, but must permit those that have got the advatns b +0s t perit tit toathe end oftini and again has the laborer been defrauded of the earnhave got the adva-nt,i(-(, to enjoy it to the end of timie. Suc i yurdotrn(du i t ru, hedelnatonings that were necessary to the comfort o0 his family, Su,chi is your doctrine, Hand if' it is true, the declai atiotiwlientthnwogtteenefto i ao,wr while th~e men who got the benefit of his labor, were that the goverinient is instituted for the equal io rollig -ii afiaence and weath, but protected by cortectioi and benefit of the people, is a failsehood, and p perate immriuniity. And -,till in th'e mid~cst of all ilheke should be stricken ouit. g n shuold be stricken 0 ~~~wrotngs and outrages, the people have beeii temperate But, aga,in, you say iiA this section: "They [the pe o and forbaig. TIoo much s,o, anid ttlis has been and ple] have the right to alter, reform or abolish tr i the gaiv will coninue to be the fault, if any fault is commited. ernineut, whenever they may deenm it nece y Ciii it he snuipoeed that a reasonable, ruyt and lieiell The government is but an instirument in the hands geut people will demand the repeal of aiiy law whicih of the people, who possess all political power, with promotes tthe public good7 To suppose that, is to supwhich to promote their own happiness, interests and uose them incapable of self goverineut. The dearest safety. It is but the creature of their will. To make interests of every man, social, political and domestic, are it effectual for these ends, it niay be altered, changed, ini the hands of his fellow meii, and yet we feel sure moulded into any shape, or even abolished altogether. they are satf,. If niatural persons are thus safe, why You are willing to say that the pillars of the State shoui'd these artificial beilgs created by law feel dismay crumble away at the command of the people, and trust? Pliey have much less that can be reached by that every law of a general nature may be revoked govemiunut thati na;tural persons have. Indeed gov and abolished, but when you come to an act incorpo- erniuent can take nothing from them but what it has rating a tavern, your counrage fails you and you can already cinferred upon them. It is true that in some go no further! Such laws, like those of the Medes cases this miight work an injury, but the natmt,e, and and Persians, change not. You will not confess now exteut of that inljury iiiust be left to be asceitained and that the people possess full pow,er over all their laws justice done as each case shall arise-very few repeals and institutions and if they do not, the declaration will take place, but th,e very fact that they can be that they do, is a falelhood, and should be stricken reached aud are not above the law, will induce cor out.'Thus it will be seen that your iecoiisideiatiou porations, in most cases, so to conduct themselves as does not go far enoagh back to iake you consistent. iot to deserve the remedy; and when they do not de To protect yolur pets you must knock out some of the serve it thev need not old corner stonis of the political etdifice. If you de-ar its application Mr. ARCiHBOLD, (interposing, and Mr. R. yield ny allpowerto th peopl overexcluivepi nc-e ig.) If it required no timye to prepare partnership conferred by law, you deniy that all political power is iiig )mif it could b e forever in the people -if ~you deiny them all power to correc5 deeis, aid to sign them, —if they could be forever the liiequalitics of existing aws, you deiny that the written aud forever sigiied,-I want no corporation gheofvernistiing lauws, you promote thatl b~i~tse acts. But I would asik the gentleman, if the privilege audprotctioiii t ifsyu denystited the pro hte eoalt of association by sniall capitaliils iiiight not be enjoy and protectionl if' yo deny them the privilege,? repeal all laws that they may have passed, you deny Mr. RANNEY. Yes sir. them the right to alter, reform or abolish their govern Mr. ARCHBOLD. Then there is no need of' dis mreint, and its institutions, whefn they see fit,. If thies~ue. declarations are net true, let us strike out the whole section. Let us priocaini no falsehoods on the fac( c(I Mr. RANNEY. I have already said, that the great this instrument. Let us not "hold the promise to the principle of the riglit of association belongs to tuan1 ear, and break it to the hope." To make it confoirn irrespective of all government. It lies back of all gov to the doctrines you adsvocate, and consistent with erument, if I tuay so speak. It has its origin in nature. your opposition to the provision now under consider- It belotigs to our social existence. "God iiever made ation, yoti should at least amend this section, so that an independent man." The consequence is, that asso it will read tiat all political power is inherent in the ciatioii was begotten, as soon as various familie. of people, except such as may heretofore, or shall here- men begati to exist. It follows, that tire power or the after be granted away in the shape of'special privil- right of association was never conferred by any gov eges.'-'(,'overnnient is instituted for the beiiefit ci erinnetit. For any lawful purpose, it always existed corporations, and the holder of exclusive privilegs,, and will continue to exist, without any governmental and the people may alter, reform or abolish esti. consent whatever. Government may regulate and thing, except laws granting special privileges a protect it, but cannot rightfully deny its eiij-ymeat to immuiiities.' In short, government is supreme GN er all who choose to deniand it. It is iio exclusive privi mien arid all their rights, but imoiiopolies are supreme lege; it belongs to all alike. It was not conferred by over it. any law, and has therefore, nothiug to do with this pro Such a section would make you tell the truth. vision. There is no0 truth iii it, (if yetir doctrines are true,) as If our friends will stand by the ground that they de it now standls. mand pay only for the properly taken, then I am with This denial of the power of the people over monol~ them. But what is it that we propose to take? Priv olies end exclusive privileges arises from a conscious- lieges and immunities —nothing else. WVell, if we take noess on the part of those interested in them, that they iso property, atnd you are wliug to say that you do not are exercising injustice, and ihey fear they will he dealt expect to be paid for your franchise, and admitl that we j ustly by. Justice is not what they watnt; but they have a right to take it, where is the issue betweeii us? demand impunity to practice injustice. The people~in There is none. We have affirmed nothing else. W0 479 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 4. ty from a government )f special privileges. It hIas been truly said, that "power is constaitly stealing from the many to the few." T'Ihis is the tendency under any form of government. To couiteract this tell dency is the part of wisdoin adid patriotism. But our opponents propose to give it a "local lida)itation, and a name," within the sanctuary of our political edifice. Conceding all political power to be with the people to begin with, they contend, that wlh;atever is stolen fromn them by way of grants of exclusive privileges, is gone forever from them. Every nt-w grant that is ruade, either through imnprovidence, ignoralce, or corruption of the Legislative body, iiarriows the jurisdiction of the people, and enlarges that of ilthe privileged older. A man with half an eye, it seemiS to me must see, where this process in a few generaLtioniis vwill lead. Evf,ry branch of businiess will be oppressed with the nightmare of monopoly, the amnount of property exempted from the burdens of taxation will te greatly increased; every General Assembly will be invested with less power, than its predecessor. until at lengtii special privileges will have usurped one half the political power of the land, and by its undue influence will be able to coil trol the destinies of the State.'i'here is no stopping in this downhill road The nmoment you concede the power to barter away any part of the sovereignty of the people, over persons or thiugs, y,u have conceded a principle that would justify the trai,nsfer of it all-a privilege that ends in thle goverlnmenlt of a privileged aristocracy. Let us then, while the State is young and vigorous, and able to grapple withi this great ene my of republican equality, give leer a fair chance. Take the cords from her limibs, and I have nio fears but she will do so successtully. I have noi fears but that she will provide security for the future, and indemniity for the past. Others may do as they pl)ease —miy course is taken. I will fight for the great priuciple involved in this amendment at the threshold, and to the last. I will never surrender it, and so far as my action is corieern ed, it shall always be true, that "all political power is inhere nt in the people." I will coinsient to )o dim insu tion nor partition of that power. Whatever h1as a po litical beginning, shall wIieli tise people w i ll it, haalvc a political end. m chee sovereignty shall be as b road next year, as it isthtisyeara-in olie next generation as i t is in this generation. In the close of his reagvarks, o Ir. Pl. said, if we shrink from the perforriane e ot f our duty, so far ats to admit that the sovereign plowyr can be granted away p beyond the power of dc Itlaistnio n ir a few cases, it may be done il all cares. If wae thraik so far fi om our duty, as to leave atny l:',itude for the,,suipposition, that free governnment niny be tutined si into a eo lzin for the benefit of select portions o-f the peiople, at the expense of the many, and that,here is {)o power in the government to righlt this wrong, we extiniguish, at once, the highest hopes of republica n ismii.:For the great dividing line, as I have before said, which separates a government of the people from a governi. ment of the few, lies irn this question. Can the Legislature grant away any portion of the sovereigntyr of the people, alyn make that grant irrelaimable? If this can be donle, then this multch cherished declarationl here in ou~r bill of righl-ts, that all political power is inherent in the peop3?e-is a sheer falsehood; and that they may alter or abolish thaeir forma of government at pleasurle, —it is all a libel, the whole of it. But, if genfiemlen will thtus dissipate the popular sovereignty. I shall onlly ark o:f thlem one thing farther; and that will be, simnply, anid con~sistenltly, to vote down all these sounding declarations in our bill of rights, and pu~v all tal~'r,pia.:e hieadling~ il thsCr place. pr opose aicd affirm the power and t he right to take the ilnmunity conferred by law, at any time, when the law-making power may see fit, and upon snch equita isle terms as they see fit. Then our friends on my left 1o not want a reconsideration, if they are honest ix their professions. But, our friends on my right, with th,, gentleman from Belmont, [Mr. KFNNON,] hold different doctrine. They say, that when the Legisla tarre passes a charter, it is a contract, and you cannoe touch it. That is tangible ground, whether correct o Sot. I am sorry to see, that, when we once get a vote wlIich makes good th e reiterated declarations of our friends, and by thee o help of their own votes, that not onef day can elapse, before gentlemen wan t a re-con si(ieration. If you say, that a n act of incorporation ma y be taken b y tie Legislature, upon such just t erms, as they may fprovide, then there is an end of all controversy between us. But the battle canno t ce ase between us and our friends on my left; because them deny the right! to touch a charter, and there is no middl e g round between us. He that is not for us, is against us. Mr. ARCIIBOLD (in his seat.) I am agaiiist you, then. Mr. RANNEt. I amn glad to hear you say it op en py, if that i s the ca se; for, if there is any thing which I admire in a man, it is that courage and boldness which allows him to stand up, and declare his o pinions. And now, tohe gentleman says he is against me. Mr. ARC eHBOLD (in h is s eat.) T here is neither peace nor tau ce between u s. Mr. RANNEY. Well, that i s all I want. I hope, tlowever, it is a pI oitiCal, n ot a personal war. If I have an opp onen t, there is just where I want to see him, so that I ca t ) tell what chance there is for my life. But this thing of stealing a man's own thunder, to fight him with, is not very agreeable. I would far ra ther have a reg ular se t t o, and ran all the chances of a bloody iniose, thian to be co mpe lled to kick at nothing half the time, for the waist o f a knowl edge where our o0o)nents are to be found. This is our attitude with our political brethren, here, upon this question; for, whenever we attempt to place them upon whig ground, lhey will not stand there, only just long enough to vote. Whey then speedily back into ourcamp. But the vote of last evening, gave me hope, which I wroilld gladly cherish still, that these differences among dermocrats were. being cleared away. I must confess, thait I slept sounder for it last night, and that I got up this morning mnore cheerful, than I have for a month past. But what was my chagrin, upon seeing my venerable friend from Morgan, [Mr. HAWKINS,] rising in . is place to-day-even struggling to get the floor-for ttl,, purpose of moving a re-consideration of that vote. T'lis showed at once —and beyond dispute-that there is earnesttness in the declaration of the gentleman from N57loroec that hostilities still exist between us; that we . ii:[ stan,)d upon either side of a dividing line, which ;t;,r is o1} passing. I woula1d gladly have avoided this debate-gladly Is,ve avoided all conflict, especially with my political tri,.lees. But they help to vote into this constitution, a vffal principle, and before twenty-four hours have el:,-s,sd, insist upon voting it out again. They are aloqI(e responsible for the loss of time. We could not yi,,i( to their demands, without cowardly abandoning a great principle, which I hope. no man will be found craven-hearted enough to do. It is indeed a great and !,r,,rtant question-none can be more so. Though it ...... tfl in- e th!t d:ids, free from despotie govern~ ~., — ma ~overnment 3of tl}e people, from a governiiciit of privileged aristocratsma government ofequali 480 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuES AY, FEBRtJARY 4. 481 Mr. SWAN said that he had not intended to say Mr. SWAN. The gentleman shall be gratified. I one word at this time; but he wvislied to explain what do not speak without the book. he meant in his iremark to the gentleman frormi Trlm- Anld iiow let us see w-hat is the effect of this simple bull, (Mr. RAx-.LY,) ihat- hle was opposed to giving repeal of tlre charter of plailkroads. the General Asse-ubly, the power of unqualified repeal Every nmlanl who travels oil the road after the rep-al of existing charters. is a trespasser upon the farmer over whose land thie I desire to discuss this question without adverting, road was built. Not a dollar of toll can afterwards be to the repealability of pre existing charters. Gentle collected; arnd if the stockholders own any lots upon mrnen have had their attention and their feelings so which they have built toll houscs, the lots and houses much occupied by this question, whether the General be'ong to tile persons who conveyed the lots to the corAssembly have the power of repeal, that they seem to I)oration forget, what repeal is-its legal effect upon the pro- Repeal unqualifiedly a manufacturinrg company and perty and rights of stockholders. It may be well tihe real estate and the buildings arnd the machinery antherefore to pass bv that question and iinquire simply nexed to the buildings are transferred by the simple whether conceding that we can give the power, shall operatior of the repeal, to tie person from whom the we vest in the General Assembly an urqualifiedpower company purchased tihe real estate, and tiheir personal of the repeal of pre-existing charters. Gentlemen seem property vests iii ti-e State. to forget what unqurralfied repeal is arid therefore lose to fofthe t what, repealiand tuprefon loe Suppose then, the power to repeal charters heretosight of the terms, if aity, or qualification upon which this power shouldbe uthoried He tere for e created, were vested unqualifiedly in tie General th' power shouldbe itithoriAsedmH hrfr,i -siibly; suppose,, too, citizens under the faith and order to present a fair field for the question, would Asembly; suppose, too, citizens under te faith n concede that we can vest this power in the General b lief that they were entitled to use their property for a certain limited period, in tile model provided by th~e Assembly. The powier to do athing and the moder in tie ode prvided by te chre,and liad invested their earnings tirerein wirfh which that power should be exercised or limited, are charter and ead invested their earilot gS tlerein wiGe such ail understanding, as well oln the part of the Gentwo different qu,estionis. eral Assembly, as tile stockholders, you propose, under The gentleman fronm Trumbull, and others in this these circumstances, and before the period stipulatei Hall, seem to be in favor of vesting in the General I expires, to give the General Assembly the power to Assembly, an unqualified power. Now, if this be tlansfer, by act of repeal, tihe real estate of the stockright and proper, do it. But *what is unqualified re- holders, to those who conveyed it to the corporation peal? Surely no one would desire to confer this p- -to trasfer the persolr property of the stockholders er until heknewv what uniqualified repeal is-it s effect. owned trogli the orporation to tie State, ad to For instance we have conlerred oll the State, through cancel all the debts iue to, end owing by the corporaits officers, the power to take private property for the tion. public welfare. But do we stop there? If we did, Mr. RANNFY, [interposing.] If the gentleman the officers of the S'tt,. coul (l plunder every citizen on from Franklin wer e a member of the Legislative body, the ground that he was taking the property for the I suppose there would not be tre least appreheisio~i public welfare. We 1r'ovide against the consequences, that fie would vote to irod uee suci consequences. of such a provision'i -orwe ~:,7ill not trust the StateorthieI GeneralrAsseiblyon;, illnote r officerusto theStateorh suppose he would himrnelf have no sucb apprehensions, Ge a A r ohe o r of tire Stae and I desire to ask him whether Ie can have as much wvith sili a power, eve- T for the public good, wvithout confidence in the majority of the General Assembly, as so limniting that no citizen's property can be touched he las in hirriself, wrti reference to aiy action, which withlout compensation being first miade. What then might be taken upor ti. subject? is the effect of unqualified repeal, in other words, M Mr. SWAN. It is sufficient for me to commen)d what do the General Assenbly do when they exercise tire power of nquellifid repea1? lts effect will t~t 1to the gentleman his own words when speaking of the the power of unq~ualified repeal? Its effect will test removal of judges by a two-thirds vote of the General the expediency and justice of conferring the pwr quaifieed or u mideoquafefriothpoed.er I peAssembly. The gentleman then told us thattheGeirer qTake the L ittl e Miiaf i Rai lroad comany Exr- al Assembly was the worst tribunal that ever exis.ed to Take the Little Miamr Railroad company. E x at; n ewtegtlmnrecmed cise this unqualified power of repeal. The General ascertain lacts; and now the gentleman recominedd ise tisunquaified power of rel The Geral this same tribunal to exercise a high judicial absolute Assemblyd mpr declan the act, of itncorporatio orI and unqualified power over citizen's property vested in pealed. What becomes of its right of way? It is a special, excltusive pri-i lege, and cannot be exercised PrRAiis or enjoyed by the peoepl atlarge By thie repal, th Mr. RANNEY, (in his seat.) They cannot take a right of way exii d destroyed, goe. Eve- cent of it, (rising.) I desire to call the attention of ry farmer onr the line of that road through whose land the gentleman to the b6tli section of the Report of it passes, could fence it up. The stockholders and the committee on the legislative department, which citizens who should afterwards pass over the road provides expressly that pivate property, whether of wvould be trespassigi and could be sued therefore individuals or corporations, shall ever be held invioby those farmlers. 1'he ownership of every engine late, and shall never be taken, except for public use; and car, belongiinr to the corporation, would vest in or then without adequate coinpensation. Mr. SWAN. I will test the genitlemian's sincerity the State Everi debt die to the company arid everly e Mr. SWAN. I ill tet the geleman sincerity debt owing bv tree company wsould be totally ex- about that, when the subject shall come up. tinguishied and cancelled. All their real estate for I am dealing now vith tie question whether it which they have paid, and received deeds in fee sim- would be expediet, just ard roper to ive t-is unple, is transferred ad. vested in fee simple in tire per- qualified power to the General Assembty. sons from wlhom the e~tockholders purchased it; a nd An o I am irked for roy aritority for thus all the molney orn haind vests in the State. Thi stating the efet of irriqiratified Repeal. It wilt be unlqualified repei 1t found in the Commentaries of Charceltor Kent. I Mr. MITCHELL (interupting.) Does the State be will read a single paragrafrh come entitled to the personal property of the cepe tA2 alisoite acid ulqllaiiiell iet~aT a niece, of a cm-arter o ny? iineorlporatilo of a nioeley or tradin insitution, would be aaten Mr. SWAN. Yes si-r.ied with miiost injuarieos a}~( distressi~Z:onsequelices. Accor Mr. SWAN. Yes s ir, dlin.z' to the settled law of lle land, where lere ase no specia SIr. MITCHLLLL. I should like t: see the authori-t sta,t,e i,'.;~.., i7:....i....:'~Lv. e,.,,i,!. i,e,l.l i~e,a',.,:,, ty for s iuch apropos~si tion. seen CL( ii lie t f ciootraieI grantcr arnd his heirs. Te deits due to, aud from thie 482 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TU'sDAY, FEBRUARY 4. tnor Mr. RANNEY, (interrupling.) Is not the pow.' ofe of repeal exercised by tt e British Parliament? teed- Mr. SWAN. Yes; for the British Parliament is w." omnipotent, and the English people have no written no constitution. The British Parliament may tamper with aw the title to estates. Does any gentleman desire an ote omnipotent Parliament? Mr. REEMELIN', (in his seat.) I assert that it hi-s Iul- been done in the State of Ohio, in thousandsof cses. ing Mr. SWAN. I do not understand what the gentle. ers man means-but if what the gentlemani says, be true, perhaps hlie would defend that injustice; I do liot. he InI what (ases do gentlemen desire to exercise this net power of unqualified repeal? The gentleman from tld Knox, (Mr. MITCIIELL,) says, only when a corporauat tioti is a nuisance. Tlhen you wish to destroy it, and ra- the use of the property as provided by its charter. If you desire to destroy a rail road or other corporation and repeal the charter, you would not dispose of the all road or property and its use, to a purchaser, for you re? would then simply transfer to the purchaser the iuirs- sance to be used as he pleased. What then would re e main to be disposed of? If a rail road-the engines k- and cars-lhe ironi and wood rail separated from the ue road, and the firewood on hand. If a plank road, you he would sell the. plank in the mud and the toll-houses. d The use of the road and the right to take toll being ic franchises-exclusive privileges, not elljoyedi by all re the people, you would des.,troy withliout compensation. t. And this is the farthest that these gentlemen would Y go,and because I voted against such a proposition,madle he by the gentleman from Medinia, I am denounced. v- But 1 will not pursue this subject fartherat present; o- intending at another time, when the Legislative Der- partment is before the Convention, to say a few words i upon the justice and honesty of injuring, taking or destroyiniig the property of citizens or its use by repeal, e during the period that they, by the terms of their charter are authorized to use it, without compensa8- tion. 31y position upon this subject is simply this: I will v not consent to any such repealing power, except for the public welfare, nor without at the same time disf tinctly recognising a just compensationi for the inijury i done. As to charters hereafter created, it is an eni tirely different question; atnd I deemn it pro)per that the General Assembly as to tlhemn, should retain the A- right of repeal, saving all just rights of the stock holders in the property of the corporation. Mr. ARCHBOLD. It will be recollected that this t amendment, which it is sought now to reconsider, was only read from the Clerk's table. It was made up e and decided upon very suddenly; and besides, it is r ambiguous in its terms. The gestleman from Franke lin (Mr. SWAN) puts one construction upon it, whilst L, I have been compelled to put another construction y upon it. But the mover of the amendment, (Mr. St LAWRENCE,) the gentleman himself declares that his n meaning was something near what has been assumed ; by the gentleman from Franklin. But still I cannot -place upon his proposition any other construc- tion, than what I pot upon his language at first. The language of the proposition is, most uinquestion, ably ambiguous; and if it is liable to be misunder- stood here in this body, where it originated, how can - it be hoped, that it can be correctly construed by the t courts ill future. lHere then is the cas-the ineaning , of the provision is disputed and disputable, at this m oment; and thereforre it is important, that its nesian, ing should be fixed. b I shall not enter at all into the argument of th - genttleman from Knox (Mr. MITcnHrL), for it is a o rather aside from the immediate question before all But, if the Convention will reconsider the vote ado s. soriuo,'a'io l, ale ail extin?lishedl. Neither the stockholders, the direct or tustees of tile (orporation, cal. recover th odebts. or le iha gesi w itit them il, their- iatiural ca,pacity. A.s p^rsolmlal es!at$( ot' the cori. to, l rests in the people, as su(cc ]'Allto this -izlit a',d p,rerogzative of the crown, at corelliol la; This is the lawNv of the land, and the courts have nmore pow er to alter it than they have to alter the I which eniibles a nman to recover upon a promissory no given for a vwluab]e consideration. I d o ubt whether the gentleman from Trumbull f Iv understood what he was prpropostg when icsistio upon the pover (f unqualified Repeal a s to c hart, heretofore created. It will not do. Mr. RANNEY. The power to do a thing and t Balnner of doing it, are two separate and distin things. I do cot suppose that any Legislature woi have so little sense as to repeal a charter, witho providing for winding up the affairs of the cor-po tion. Mr. SWAN. I do not think they would. Mr. RANNEY. Does the gentleman deny that fu power to repeal a charter is vested in the Legislatur Mr. SWAN. I do not doubt but that the General A sembl]y may take the property of a corporation and a its incidents for thepublic good; })ut if taken the stoc holders must be paid like every other citizen, the val of the property taken, injured or destroyed by t! State. And what has the gentleman been doing an others in this hall? If the State takes for the pibl good the wheat of a farmer in a granary, you requi it to be first paid for by the State. That is rich You make the officer of the State a trespasser if L touches the property, unless a jury be first called, tin value ascertained, and the amount paid. If, hoa ever, the farmer sells his wheat and invests the pi ceeds in a turnpike, you propose to repeal the chia ter and thus destroy the same farmers property wit~ out compensation-i. Mr. RANNEY, (in his seat.) That would notb taken for public use. Mr. SWAN. When you repeal a charter and de troy property, y ou will not pay for it, but when yo repeal a charter and take the property, you will pa' for it! A right of way owned by a railroad or tur n pike and paid for, you will'destroy, by the repeal a its charter,. but you will make no compensation be cause it was a franchise, an exclusive special privi lege. Mr. RANNEY, (interrupting.) If the General As sembly takes away a b)ank charter, would you pan fajr that? Mr. SWAN. Is the gentleman there? I though so. Mr. President, there are two kinds of warfare one rnanly, open and honorable-foot to footh andrey to eye. There is ano)ther kind, once known on ou borders-Indian. Whern the Indiarn had a grudge against one member of a family, well or ill founded he entered the dwelling at night and indiscritninatel tomahawked and scalped the whole family, and se fire to the dwelling. There are many corporations in this State of the usefulness, of which no one doubts and I protest againist any principle which will do in jtustice to all, for the salke of reaching onie. I will en gage in no such Indian warfare. If the gentleman from Trumrbull desires to repeal the charter of Banks, let himr bring forward the pr oposition. But if a general rule is to be adopted, applicable to all corporatienls, let us have one that, will be honest and just toc all, atol if the g,entlem~an cannot; frame such a one without including the Banks, it is no fault of mine. The u nq ualified repeal of charters heretofore created by which the property of ckiz~7ens is taken, or its use and thseref~ore the aleaue of tile property destroyed without comlpensation, is a pow,er which is not vested ill any potentate in Europe. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNEStAY, FEBRUARY'5. ig the provision, I give notice, that I will move an Court; but, in such case, each of the Judges so elect:itiiendnment, the substance of which shall be, that no ed in districts shall be cotipetent to hold Courts of iinirunittv r privilege, iujurious to the public, shall Common Pleas in any county within the circuit. ever be granited inI this State. The tern of service of Judges of the Court of The question being upon the motion of Mr. HAW- Coitmmon Pleas shall be five years. .r ix to reconsider the vote by which the Convention Courts of Common Pleas shall have original and agfreed to the amrendment of Mr. LAWEENCE. appellate jurisdiction in civil and criminal matters Pending- which, at law and equity, as shall be prescribed by law. On mnotion by Mr. LARWILL, the Convention ad Courts of Ccmnmoii Pleas shall be held by any one Sjournedt. of the Judges elected in any circuit in each county thereof, as often as may be provided by law, and ONE HUINDRED AND SEVENTH DAY. mnore than one such Court may be held at the salme W0EDNESDAY, February 5, 1851.R timne inI each circuit. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. I SEc. 5. There shall be established in each county The Coneton net prsuaot to adjurnent. f this State, a Court of Record, to be called the The Converation met pursuant to adjournment. CotyCuttobhodnbOfOJdetob Pr,-iaver by the Rev. Mr.. C-lt,?,. County Court, to be holden by one Judge, to be PIrayLEADB,TTER fromb the selevct corMrmite on elected by the qualified electors of the county, whlose teMr. JuLEAr subiETTER, from the foselect committee onoig: term of office shall be three years. the Juicir submie Judges of County Courts shall have jiurisdietioi REPORT NO. 1, in habeas corpus, of probate, and admiini,tration, tle OF T'C SELECT C~3fMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAL DEPARTAIMENT. issuing and revocation of letters testamentary, of ad SsecTix. 1. The Judicial power of this State shall ministration and guardianship, the settlement of ac-. be vested in a Supreme Court, Superior Courts, Courts, counts of executors, administrators, and guardiais, ,f Cornrion P'leas, County Courts, Justices of the and such further jurisdiction as shall be prescribed Peace, and such other Courts, inferior to the Superior by law. Court, as shall be created by law. County Courts shall always be open for the transac Seo. 2.'rhe Supreme C,,urt shall consist of not tiori of business, and the Judges thereof shall be less than five Judges, who shall )e elected by the compensated for their services by a fixed salary, to qi alifi.ed electors in such manner as shall be prescri- be paid (out of the treasury of the proper county, or bed by law. TIhe term of service of Judges of the bv fees, as may be prescribed by law. Siiprene Court shall be five vears, but immnediately SEC 6. A competent number of Justices of the .-fter t?.he first election under this Constitutionr, the Peace shall be elected, by the qualified electors it Judges then elected shall be qualified by lot, so that e-ach township in the several counties,,hose duties ,)Ile shall serve for one year, one for two years, one for and powvers shall fromn time to timte, be regulated hy tmlre years, oii( for foir vears, aid one for five vears. law The term of oice of Justices of the Peace The oni lhaving thle longest termn to serve, slall be shall be three years. Cltief Judge, aid thereafter the one longest it corl- S(C. 7. Thlere shall be elected, in each of tllo ecuit, ziission shall be Chief Jud(e. ties of this State, byv the qualified electors therein, The Suprenie Court shall hlave ori(inal jurisdiction one Clerk of the Court of Common Pleas, who shli ii quo warrant,, ma(udasnus, habeas corpus, proce hld his office fior the term of five years, and until kdendo, aud suce appellate jurisdiction as shall be his successor shall be elected and qualifed..Heshall pirovided by law. be ex-o.eicio Clerk of the Supreme Court, whenever It shlall hold at least, ore t,erni in each year at the saie shall be held within his county. He shall seat of government, and such other terims at the seat also be Clerk of all the Courts of Record within such ,,f governmeunt, oI' elsewhere, as may be provided by county. taw, aud a majorityv of the awhole number of Judges But the General Assembly nay, by law, provide shlall bei a (iorum. fi)r tllhe election. in like manner, of a Clerk for each SEti. 3. The Suiperior Court shall consist of one of of the Courts ini any counity, when the business therethe Jaudges o0 the S ipree Court, as Presid(tent, and_ in may require it: ,,ty one o0 n.on of the Jud(, of the Court of Com Provided that Judges of County Courts shall per, aitinoe o Poleas fs e r sfiCorte., form the duties of C(lerk of their respective Couits The Stperor Court shall have like origi,ial juris- unless, in particular cases, it may otherwise be pro,Iiction with tie Sup rene, Court, and such furtlhler vided by law. Vacancies in the office of Clerk sliall o:rigi~fnal jeur'i~cO.n ill civil or ( riminial ilatters, at be filled, and Clerks of Courts shall be removed in taw or in equty-, a 1d such appelate jliisdictioin for i such mnanner as shall be provided by law. the trial of isses ati lav and of fact, as shall be pro- SEc 8. Jutdges of the Suprenie Court, and Courts vi(led by law. of Commnon PlI,as, and of such other Courts as may Terms of the Superior Court shiall tbe held aiinii- be created by law, urder this Constitution, shall, at l-tly aud setmiaunLallay, as shall be directed bv law, stated times, receive for their services an adequate iii each of the counties witoin this State, and Supe- compenisatioii, to be fixed by law, which shall neither rioti Courts iayv be holden at the same tiune i.-i differ- be increased nor diminished during their continuance enlt counties. in office; but they shall receive no fees nor perquisites, S;c. 4.. Te Sta,e shall be divided into nriot less nor hold aiiy office of profit or trust under the autlhor l }an nine cire'1it 4f which the county of laoiilton ity of this State, or of the United States.. They may .,hall be oue, of compact territory, bounded by coun- be removed from office for good cause, by joint resolu tv lines, with equal populatioi, as near as piactica- tioIl of the General Assembly, two-thirds of all the i-le; iii each of v -;heh circuits there shall be elected, members electedtto each Rouse concurring therein:thy the qualified electors, therein, three Judges of the Provided, that the cause for such removal shall be (tourt of Corumon Pleas, who shall be CA-officio Asso- entered upon the journals of bothl Houses, and a copy ciate Judges of the Superior Court. The General As- thereof ouly served upon the party sought to be Tesembly may provide for the division of such circuits nmoved, to enable him to prepare his defence. into districts of like compact and contiguous territory In case of vacancy ini the office of Judge ojf aiy aid equal population, within which shall be elected, Court herein provi(ded for, before the exprration of b.v the quallfied voters therein, one Judge of said thle term for which he shall have been elected, such 32 48t: 484 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNE:sDAY, FEBRUARY 5. vacancy shall be filled by appointment by the Gover- riod of service, the right shall be determined by se nor, until the next annual election: niority in age. To this Supreme Court, I have given Provided, that if such vacancy shall happen with- no determinate jurisdiction, leaving that to be fixed in thirty days prior to such election, the same shall bv the Legislatuire; providing, however, that until so be filled at such election, and the appointee of the fixed. it shall be the same as with the present Su (overnor shall hold his office until his successor is preme Court. elected and qualified. A session of this Supreme court is to be holden by SEC. 9. Persons having the qualifications of elect- Lwo judges, ole every year, in each county; but I have ors, shall be eligible to any office provided for in provided,that in view of the appellate jurisdiction of this article. the Supreiiie Court, upon the circuit, onl questions of SEC. 10. The General Assembly may increase the fact, being restored to this court-as many desire it to number of Judges of the Supreme Court, the numbier be-a term may be holdeu by a single judge, and this of the circuits of the Court of Common Pleas, the court may sit in several counties at the samne time. number of Judges in aiiy circuit, change the circuits This court shall also hold sessions in bank, i such or establish other Courts; but no such change or ad- iiiainer Ias the General Assenibly shall prescribe dition shall vacate the office of any Judge of the I next provide for a court ot common pleas, for the Supreme Court, or other Judge. purpose of hIich, the present distribution ot the State SEC. 11. The several Judges of the Supreme Court, into circuits, is to continue until otherwise provided in and the several Judges of the Court of Common Pleas, each of these circuits, there is to be onejudge and iii each and of such other Courts as may be created by law, couiitv,oneassociatejiidge, electe(d by the people. To shall respectively have and exercise such power and th is associate judge, I give a general probate julisdiction, jurisdiction at chambers, or otherwise, as may be di- and such ot;iei as shall be provided b)y law,. I look up rected by law. on the office of associate judge, in this case, as of sonme SEC. 12. All Judges or other officers, who may importance. He would be able thus to relieve the hereafter be created under the provisions of this arti- cou.t of common pleas of nmuch business which would cle, whose election is not herein provided for, shall more properly be transacted by a judge of the locality; be elected by the qualified electors within the judicial while at the same time, lie would be an assistant to the district for which they may be created, and shall hold president judge, giving necessary information as to their offices for the term of five years. personal estate, and could hold the terms of the court, SEc. 13. The title of all process shall be "The in case of his sickness or necessary absence-aud the State of Ohio," and all prosecutions shall be carried presence of an associate judoe would, probably, give on in the name and by the authority of the State of confidence and be satisfactory to the people of his Ohio, and all indictments shall conclude againt the county. I have also provided superior and coinrmer. peace and dignity of the same. cial courts il this county as at present; also for a court (Signed,) D.P. LEADBETTER, of criminal jurisdictioni, as shall b- fixed by law; also JOHN L. GREEN, for a,uiperior court ill C!eveland similar to that now HARMAN STIDGER, existing. ADAM W. RIDDLE, I have furthermore provided for the election of a JOSIAH SCOTT. co imp)eteint numnber of justices of the peace-the num Mr LEADBETTER movedthatthe Reportbeid her to be as present fixed, until the Legislature shall Mr. LEADBETTER moved, thatthe tla 1Rep0ort belaid otherwise enact. I have provided that one clerk shall Mon the table, an d 1000 cop ie s be ordered to be priite. be elected by the people of each county, to be called the ,eqetoMr. CHAMBERS demanded a division. clerk ofc,)urt, who shall officiate in the common pleas, The question the n being on laying the Report on in the Probate court, and il supreme court, until oththe table, I~the agreed~ tableo, erwise provided. The judges all to hold their offices The question eed t o rdering 1000 copie.s of for five years, and the justices of the peace for three The ques tion then being on ordering 1000 copies of years. These, Mr. President, are the principal fea. th e same to beprinted; tures ofthe plan which I propose, and which I desire It wa aretoto introduce to the consideration of this body. Mr. COLLINGS said that while the subject of the Mr. COLLINGS, on leave, then submitted the folJudiciary system was before the Convention, he de- lowing proposition in relation to the Judiciary. sired to embrace the opportunity to present a plan of PROPOSITION OF MR. COLLINGS ON THE SUBJECT OF THE his own, which, after some experience and some re- JUDICIARY. flection, he had drawn up; and to explain, at the same "The judicial power of this State shall be vested in time, in a few words, the general provisions of the a Supreme Court, in Courts of Common Pleas, in Suplan, and the reasons that had operated on his minid perior, Commrnercial and Criminal Courts, as herein in framing it. He desired to say that hlie had gone provided, in Prolbate Courts aud Justices of the Peace, somewhat into detail, in the prqoject he had drawn IIp, tanid in such other courts inferior to the Supreme Court so that, if adopted, it might go immediately into ope- as may be established by law. ration, and need no legislative enactments to put it in The Supreme Court shall consist of sevwn Junges, motion. and shall have such civil and criminal jurisdiction, as lie provided, as the first feature of the system, for may be contferred( by law; and until otherwise provid;a Supreme Court, to consist of seven judges-the ji- ed shall have such jurisdictionii, as the present Supreme dicial period to be five years in duration. Immedi- Court of Ohion may have at the time of the adoption :ately after the first election, the judges are to be class- I of this Coustitution by vote of the people. Alterm of ified according to their age, so that the oldest shall the Suprenie Court shall be held once a year in each hold his office for one year; the two next in age, for county, and until otherwise provided by law, shadl be two years; the next one, for three years; the next two, held by at least two of the judges of said Court, but' -oor four years, and the youngest Judge, for five years; may be held by a single judge, if so provided by law, and the Governor in issuing commissions to the Judges and may be held in several counties at the same time. elect, shall determine on testimony the class to which Provisions shall be niade by law for holding terms of the Judges respectively belong. The Chief Judge the Supreme Court in Bank. shall be he who has the shortest term to serve; and The judges of the Supreme Court first elected under if there are two or more having the samne shortest pe- this Constitutiou shall be divided by age into five tais OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE- NESDAY, FEBRUARY 5. ses, the oldest judge shall hold his office for the term of til otherwise provided shall have such jurisdiction, as one year; the two next in age for the term of two the present Superior Court of Cleveland may have at years; the one next in age for the terr of one year; the time of the adoption of this Constitution by vote the two next in age for the term of two years, and the of the people. Said court shall be held by a single youngest ijudge for the term of five years; and at sub- judge, who shall be elected by the electors of said sequent electionsjudges of the Supreme Court shall be county of Cuyahega. Tile term of office of President elected for the term of five years. The Governor in Judge and Judges of the Superior, Commercial and issuing commissions to the judges of the Supremrre Criminal Courts aforesaid shall be five years; -and Couirt, first elected, shall determine on testimony the judges of other courts which may be established by classes to which they shall severally belong. The law under this Constitution shall hold their offices for judge hiving the shortest term to serve shall he styled a term not exceeding five years, and shall have such the Chief Judge of said Court; but if two or more of civil and criminal jurisdiction, as may be conferred by. said judges shall hold for an equal and the shortest law. term, the oldest of them in years shall be styled the There shall be elected in the several townships of the Chief Judge of said Court. counties of this State, by the electors of the townships The Court of Common Pleas shall consist of a Pres- respectively, a competent number of Justices of the ideut and associate Judge, and shall have such civil and Peace; and until otherwise provided by law, such crimintal jri;d etion, as may be conferred by law; and number, as maybe in office at the time of the adopexc(pt as herein otherwise provided shall until other- tioai of this Constitutioti by the vote of the people. wvise provided by law, have such jurisdiction as the Justices of the Peace shall respectively hold their offiparesent courts of Corriln Pleas may have at the time ces for the term of three years, atnd shall have such of the adoption of this Constitution by vote of the civil and crimninal jutrisdiction, as may be conferred by people. The State sthaill bedivi ed into - Common law, and tiu-til otherwise provided shall have such juPDleas circuits, in eacet of which shall be elected by the risdiction as justices of the peace n this State may electors thereof a President Judge of the circuit; and have at the time of the adoption of his Constitution utitil otherwise provided by law, the circuits shall be by the people composed, as they may be at the tite of the adoption Judges of Courts shall respectively reside within of this Constitution by vote of the pieople. Provisioti their territorial jurisdit tion and shall be conservators of may be made by law for increasing the number of cir- the peace therein cuits atid of President Judges and for changes of cir,,,shallbe iti ieach cou,*-t,.ty by t he rem hall oe elected in the several counties of this cults. T here snail be elected inl each county by the lectors thereof an associate jdg he te couty. He State by the electors of the counties respectively a s hall by virtue of his office be. uge of the Pro bae. Clerk of Court. He shall hold his office for a term of Courtbyirtu ofhcoty aL d sel hodghi officfortthree years and shall be Clerk of the Court of Common Court of his county, agd shall hold his office for the, Pleas anid Probate Court of his county; and until othterm of three -,.ears. ~term of three Y~ears. erwise provided by law shall be Clerk of the Supreme The Courts of Common Pleas shall be held in each Court, sitting within and fo.- his county, hut the Gencountily as,often, as may be provided by law, and may eral Assembly may provide by law for the election of be held by the President Judge of the Circuit and asso- a Clerk of the Supreme Court for one or more of the eiate Judge of the countvy, or either of them. counties of this State. A Clerk of the Superior Court The associate Jude, as Judge of the Probate Court of Cincinnati, a Clerk of the Commercial Court of of his county, shall htold stated terms of his Court in Ciitcitinati, and a Clerk of the Criminal Court of Hamvacation of the court of Common Pleas, and shall at iltott county, shall be elected by the electors of Hami — all times hold his court open for transaction of business ton county, and a Clerk of the SuperiorCourt of Clevetherein. He shall have jurisdiction in the proof of land shall be elected by the electorsof Cuyaho(,ga counwills and the granting and revocation of letters testa- ty. The Clerks of the four courts last mentioned shall metitary,letters of administration and of guardianship, hold their offi(ces for the term of three years respetand the settlement of executors', administrators' and tively. guardians' accounts as to personalty, and shall have On motion of Mr. BENNETT, the report was laid sucht otter jurisdiction, including sales of real estate on the table, and ordered to be printed. by executors, administrators and guardians as may be Mr. HOLMES, on leave, presented a memorial from conferred by law. William C. Townshenid and thirty-one other citizens There shall be established in the county of Hamil- of Hanmilton county, praying that a clause be incorton a court of record, which shall be denomitated the porated in the new constitution, prohibiting the LeS,upreme Court of Cincinnati, and another court of gislature fromi passing any law legalizing traffic in record, which shall be deitoitlinated the Cotmmnerciil spirituous liquors; which, on motion, was referred to Court of Cincinnati. Eitch of said courts shall be the Select Committee on the Subject of Retailing Arheld by a single judge, who isall I be elected by the elec- denlt Spirits. tars of said cr,ulity, al(nd each of said courts shall have The PRESIDENT laid before the Convention a sutich civil'urisdicilio, as tmay be conferred by law, and communication from the City Council of Cincinnati, unitil otlierwise iro(?videi( by law, shall have such juris- stating that the meaning and intent of a formercom(iictioti as tule courts of like denomination in said couti- niunication from the City Council, on the subject of ty, rtiy hlave at thie tithes of the adoption of this Con- temperance, was, "that the object of said memorial stitutioit by vote of the people Thero shall also be es was to place the traffic in the so called'ardent spirits' tablished in the county of Hamilton a court of record, upon an equality with the traffic in all other kind of which shall be denomiuated the Criminal Mart of merchandize;" which, on niotion was referred to the Hamilton County. Said criminal court shall have Select Committee on the Subject of Retailing Ardent such criminal jurisdiction as may be conferred by law, Spirits. and shall be held by a single judge, who shall be elect- Oii motion of Mr HAWKINS, the Convention took ed by the electors of said conunty.; up the report of the Committee on the "Preamble and There shall be established in the counity of Couyaoga i Bill of Rigrhts." a court of record, which shall be deiiomiiated the Su- The question pending being on the motion of Mr3perior Court of Cleveland. Said court shall have such HAwKiNs to reconsider the vote by which the Concivil jurisdiction, as may be conferred by law; and un- vention adopted the amendment of Mr. LAwREN.E 495 I 486 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDoESDAY, FEIRJARl-.5. Mr. CASE of Licking said he had not designed to bill was reported, printed, di scussed in committee of address the Convention upon the subject involved in the whole, and no such p-o isi., was i gg('e, ted. Yet the amendment now under debate, until it should at the last inomeut-at the veiv end of the discussion, come up in its proper place-ia the report of the com- just before the Convention adjotirned last night, a mittee on the Legislative department; but since the clause was wrung in, upon the tail of the Report, and endeavor had been made to incorporate in the Bill of carried, without debate, and almost w ithimt inquniry Rights, a proposition purporting to define the p(aw- into its provisions. And now the ge,itle(iii,i)i from ers and duties of the General Assembly, he had felt Auglaize, (Mr SAWYFYr,,) says,withi ii air of triumph, called upon, being one of the members of the com- that the twelve I) ave caved in. reittee who made that Report, to enter his protest Mr. SAWYER. Wheii (lid I say that? I deny against it. Where does such a section legitimatelv having made such a reiiaik. belong? In the Bill of Rights? By no means. It has Mr. CASE. The g(eitl(,nan fiom Auglaize said no relation to tire provisions nor the intent of that that he was happ)y to find that a sectioni upon Repeal bill. Where then does it belong? To the Legislative had at length been devised, upon which all could department. The amendment is as follows: harmonize. "And to alter, revoke, repeal or abolish, by act of, Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I saiid that. the General Assembly, any grant, r law couferring Mr. CASE. Well, I,hiotild like to know, in view special privileges or immunities upon any portion of of the constructi(n placed on their eiii('iidnient, that the people, which cannot reasonably be enjoyed by it means unqualified repeal, both prospective and retall." respective, what that nieait. but cavilg in?., If that The mover has undertaken to define and declare construction is true, \we had caved in; but I tell eiiwhat the Legislature mav do, and if there were no tlemen ther e has been i( caving in. T'l)eie will be objection, arising out of the peculiar provisions of Done. I shalni make no change in my position and I the amendment itself, it would be suflfeient to say have but little hope tlat you wi.l in rs. that it is out of place, and does not belong here. So much upon the subject of the reconsidertion. There is another valid reason for the reconsidera- But, Mr. President, while I am up, I desire to say a tioti of the vote by which this amendment was adop- fewwords 1n replv to ren-iark of entlen going ted. It is tlis,-tliat it is ambiguous and does not to the broadl quei.stioni of Repeal. It has ibeei made a convey to all who have attempted to give it a con- subject of eirticism, thatl although t.ihe e. ntire twelve struction. the same meaning. Oue-gentleman says it had aireed ini giv ing their votes on this subiect, no means one thin?,-another that it means another two out of the twelve could agree in the reasons thing, while a third strenuously contends that it which thev gve thlerforu Now tagt remark it ay be means nothing at -ll. Some look upon its operation true, and it inmay lnot 1)e titiie. I perf('ctlv unde rstand as prospective, and to have reference only to privi my ow n positii;u and have tieitler ela,iged ni opul leges or immunities hereafter to be granted; others ion ior see for doing so. Aly 1)0ition insist that it is retro-active 1i its force, and intended is tiis tiat if t:e puilic good shall require that the to take effect upon those which are already in exis- charter of an igcorporoted company be tepealed, ence. If there were ino otli'e reason for this reconf without any chiaie of wriog doini" ohiiflie part of the Mideratioti, this very diversity of opinion among hoi- corporation, but eiiiire(ly biec-aise the repeal is demaudest nien, would be sufficient. ed by the public welf',re —in such a ca.at~, tlhe coinpa But even this is not all. A number of worthy gen- ny should be niade whole, t t he full extent of the tlenien upon this floor, have stated that they voted for damages which it has suifferted yv the repeal-the the proposition, under a iisappreheusion as to its amount to be'- ascertained hii the litlidi't of u jury, in meaning. They thought when they gave it their a court of justice, afi,,r n full fair anid inmpartial hearsupport, that it meant one thing-now they are con- in of the tiarties in lifteest. viuced that it means another. I would ask geutle- Mr. REEM lElIN. Tak(, tie cass of the Gas Cornmen, if coinnion courtesy does not dictate, in such a pany in this city. whose stock is nOW worth onie huncase, that all should consent to the reconsideration? dred and tw,-ity sevene per cent; su ppose the charter Such has been the feeling hiretofote among members; of this company slioulit be repealed, ](-avinr to the coieiand I myself was publicly thanked by the gentle- py its works, pites, iront ant fixtures; I)owI much man from Knox, (Mr. MITCnI JL.) for litving under darmages woeuld the geittlemani give, ill such a case? similar circumstances, moved a reconsideratitn of the Mr CA'SE. If 1 were upini ajury, with tie quesvote taken upon ani amendment of the gentleman from tioii subinitteti, aitd a full knowledge of all the facts, I Logan, (Mr. STANTON,) a few days since. would endea-vior to form all opinion. There is one thing, Mr. President, in connection I will tsi th- gentleinsn fiotoi Hamnilton. [MIr. RFEMIwith this amendment, which, I contfess- has surprised FLTlN,] a quio stion in retitri: Suppose, oil the repres-nme, and that is,the covert mainnier in which this ques — titions, and ill conpiapice with lbe pe'itions of the tion of Repeal has been pushed in upon us. Now people ini the vicinity, and without any breach of law this is a question that is not to be dodged. It is not or of their charter, oil the peirt of the coro,I any, the to be fought from hehiud walls, breast-works or Legislattire should for the public welfare, see fit to reditches, nor to be broug tit up in a covert or ambigu- peal the charter tf the conipany owning the bridge ous manner. It should be, and must be fought open-! across the Great Miami River, coililectil~g the towns of ly and fairly. The battle should take place in the Hamilton ad Roseville, in B3utler county, what danmao)pen field, with no undue advanttages on eitliet side. ges would tie give? Now' I know that the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. Mr. REEMELIlN. I would not relpeal, in) such a LAwRE-xcE,) is the last, man who'inuld flinch frotn case. meeting' any question boldly, openly, ferlessly and Mr. CASE. The gentleman is inot in favor of the nunambiguously. Re, I utiderstand, claims that there right of rep eel then? is no ambiguity; but the different constructions hon- Mr. REEMELIN. No Legislature, except in' erestly given ob his amendmnent, nmust he allowed to he cumitaitces of extremity, should exercise tlhe rigtht of conclusive upon that question. And why hes this repeal, iln such a case. I cainnot0 conceive lhe existeices question been brought ini here, and at this time? It of such a necessity. If, however, the public good did not falltwithin the duty of the committee which should inmperatively require it, the full value should reported the bill. They took no tiotice of it. The be paid. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE:N,.SnAY, FEBRUARY 5. Mr. CASE. The geittleman caitnot conceive a case a great clamor, unanimously petition the Legislature where such an act of repeal would be required! Now to repeal the obnoxious charter. They elect and send I cai very readily imagine one. The two towns con- two members who are pledged to the repeal. They al nected with the bridge may represent that their inter- lege no offence against the bridgE, but demand that for ests and that of the public is ssri,:)usly injured by the the public good, the franchise should be destroyed. exercise of the franchises of the conipany —that their The c~se comes up before the Genieral Assembly. vk e growth is retarded atid their intercourse interrupted will suppose that they have given the corporators no by the demand for tolls —tliat it has become a great tice to go up and attend to their interests, for I sup public incouvenieJice, in as much as by the provisions pose you would give them a day in court. They at,f the charter no other bridge, may bt, constructed in tend with their witnesses and counsel, and the Legis the vicinity; and that the public welfare would be lature is organized into a court. The Att,rney Gengreatly u,dvatced by the revocation of its franchisea, and eral appears on behalf of the State. The court with no wrotng is imputed to tile Cempaiti. lii such a case, its one hundred and fifty juryinen sits at'he cost of would the gentleman from iLamitton, [Mr. REEgME.LIN", tie State of 1000 dollars per day. They first discuss refuse to repeal? the question of the right of repeal and the public ne M'r. RFERELIN. I hold that all charters may be cessity therefor, from day to dey until every thing is repealed wherever it is shown that the public good re- said that can be said, and that is at length settled quires it.; but I would submit the qiuiestion of'damages Next comes the question of damages, and here this ~o the Legislature. court with its one hundred and fifty jurymeni sits day Mr. CASE. But by what process would you pro- after day anti week after week liearinig evidence all the ceed ta ascertain them? The genttetuan does not an- way from Butler county, and at length judgment is ewer. He wot l~i pay the whole anoint of damages rendered, that the company shall recover its (lainages and let the Legislature assess them. Now I can tell together with its cost of sauit. bin how I would do I would send the queslion to be Mr. President. I should like to be the,fficer to Coltried by a jua-y of nutlei- county, who should deal with lect that bill of costs. The per centage upon it alone it as wiltl oti),r questions of fact originalinig among would amount to a very handsome sunm, and the cointheir fellow ciet;atid jvliatevei- sliouldl be the ver- pany or the tax payers of Ohio, will have to foot the dict, tlht shouid b,e paid by that [iublic demanding bill. ~lte re,piel. iBut what is tthe coctrine of other gentle- Mr MITCHELL. I desire to ask if the gentleman snen? TIt,-y would give nothing at ail. The gentle- would try the right of repeal by jury? imani fotel Gu rMr. LEE,ctH,] said the other day, Mr. CASE. If the corporation bad violated the law t.hat the d(lriy —'-ll)eity cr'. ateY by landa wraltt or from the r port of th ebte —-lst ill ilnally ('a0SeS [ it is p)rol)eity i ro;)erl1 o',lained." &c. Does hi- too, repudiate the Bookli? Tis'"Book of Martyrs?" Here theii are tlhe autioitites wliich we haveupon) the question froni gntleei wIho hiave iiow t;ikeii the other side;nd (le whIat Ihey tile) admnitted; yet tiis very thiiqg which they ai(rttit is pro)perty and(i whiclh the Iliw declares is property, tl,ay be takeli from its r owners, divested aud anliiiiiila'ted, and tiot one ceat in~ return pati to thie proptri,-tor,. Mr. REEMEL IN. Does the gentleman rnea e? Mr. CASE. No sir. For oie yeti are (it lengt} right, voi are witi nit, with tihe Constituotont, with tihe law of the lA:.d, witi} the C)corts, withlI-cksitone. ih only wish you would stick alud vote right. ipMr. Presideul- I did n(,. intetid, at this td, ele ter so fully into this (discussio); but sir, I coel.i not help saying, t,iat lie riiort I have ex-'itiied thlis sobject, the more I!iam sitlsfied tiat I am righlt. Nor do I it tenld to tbe inrivet fro. rny pesititlo-tIot even hv the fire ai(i hriinstol)ne threals of thle gentleian fromri Ki ox (M'IR. MITCIIELL.) who,OecS so fiar as to uloliiuate against ulme.an ty assoei;t,s- "lie twelve," —tot on ly reprobation here b[tit darmuatioii h-reafter. But. as I said( not even that, shall ever snake iie, lnor the twelve. Now I like tiiat iumibr, twelve. Mr. MITt;HELL. Will the gentclenian) tell us how lhe counts it up? Mr. CASE. I begin, "one, two, three,' and so on up to twelve. IMt. MITCHELL. Does the geillemaii coiiiit the gentleman fron Mnuslkitigri, (Mr. C4UaliS.) as one ' Bat what is a chaiter? Gltleli.elI saa it is plroperty. I a:ee thlat it is p -ro pery; hutie,'ause it is property. can it alwavs be seized fit- the p ublic us e? rlast there o(t Ie ii-st an existing recessity?" &c. Again on same page, hle further says: of his twelve, dem-,ocra,ts' Mr. CASE. U,)oi this qte3ti,tln, I had rather be with him than with you. I like as I said thlat l mber "Twelve"'.-a- tihe gentleman frorn IMonroe, (Mr. A ICfIBOLI),) says it is ar apostolic nlumnber without a Judos-then again there, are "twelve" juryieiin-yes,;lu(i there is Jolhn Rodgers and his wit'( aund nine snriall children anid ote at the breast, makinig "twel ve" —[ laughter ] And we all stau-d firmn ii the faithi, and ul,oa this great question of prilnciple and riglit, we shall he fiui' together, fightitig shiouldil-r to stioolder, iln tihe fall assaraeice that the right wal;1 ultimately preyail. ' Tr,tth cished to ea'th w,ill rise awmin.. Tim ete, -,at ea,'s of G -., are -'(, s Bi I e,:-or wo,~ndcd, writies in l>ai:~, A.~d (lies alidlst hler wor ship-ers." "Ba3t swhat is tirop,.rtY? Acco~ din, to Blarkstone, pror)elty is divided i1ilo real aind )persolial. There is a sort of propertv (-alle lvl choses ill atio!t, alli a cihariter seells to (colle as.ear to thlat as aiiy thillg." Will the gentleman answer. Am i correct, or am I not? Is lie also incorrectly reported? Mr. RANNEY. If the gentlernma means to contend that I have said that a franchise is property, he asserts that I have said what every member ot this floor knows I did not. Mr. S,TANBERY. I wotuld suggest to the gentleman fromi Lickinig, (Mr. CASE,) that the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) is a lawyer, and has a professional right to argtie both sides of the case, whenever it suits his convenience. (Laughter.) I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-INE NF.SDAY, FEBRUARY 5. But it would not be amiss to inquire hlow long this I saidl the other day, and now repeat, that the (loc — doctrine of the unconditional repeal of existing char- trine of repeal, as here advocated, was never heard of ters has formed a part of the democratic creed of the except on this floor, and I have and do demiand the State, and how long it has been looked upon as a test proof. of purity and soundness. Not very l-rng, I appre- And to bring the miatter nearer homne-when did hend. it is not one of those cardinal principles that tlif; question first arise in this body? The report of has come d(own to us from time immemnorial. It is the coimirittec on the Legislative department, at the riot to be foiiild in the writinigs of the fathers; nor ini head of which is the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. tie resolutions and platforms of more recent demo- S. vYER,) was made to this body last summer; and cratic bodies. It certainly was not regarded as a test althoui(h there, if anywhere, is the place where this question, in 184S, for the democratic 8th of Janllarv doctrine should be declared, it contained nothing upC(onvention of that year, could iot be brought to on the subject. The report was printed, read, deadopt it as an article of faith.'I'he colmmlittee on re- bated, arid vet, not a wvord —not a syllable was spoken solutionis of that body consisting of twenty-one per- upon the subject of retroactive reipeal Where then sons when it as proposed in coimTnittee, voted it were thewatchmren? Where were the fathers of tlIe( down byv a lmajority of nine, as am iiiformed. democratic fiith' I protest against such guardians. Mr. LEEICH. T'he resolutions to which the gentle- Have we riot reason to suspect treachery in our very man froio Licluiii refers, as I ulnderstand, did not as- niidst9 IIere is thei-le for the geitleman from sert the genieral doctrine of repeal. It was limited in C,uel'ey, (r. LErCii) to spend his vrath ol. its character. It related exclusively to the repel But this i not all. Theconmitteeon Corp)ratious Butl ofi inot her comtteean Corporationsfobakn,owbcte bank chaiters. It presented substantially this fo anking, of which the question:hAl the democracv of Ohio inscribe upon gentleman froni Cleriiou)t, (Mr. NORttis) is Chairma, their banner, that as soon as they obtain the power and upon wvhich is the radical gentlemani from Haiuin the (General Assembly thev will repeal all the baI,k iltoi, (Mr. RlxEMai rN) miade its report last sum.mer; charters in the State? Hence, the conclusion whiclh but is there in it, a word upon the subject of retroarcthe gentleman from Licking draws from the action of tire repeal? Not one. Upon the subject of prospective "the committee of twenty-one," on that resolution, epeal, it is all right; but there it stops. Were there does not legitimnately follow. His reasolling is dis- TRAITORS in this carnp also? I turn them over to the ingfennouns His log ic is unsound. His conclusioii is gentlemati from Guernsey (Mr. LaECH). entirely0 too broad for his premiss. I can tell geiitlemen how this subject of retroactive eitire tolo;ilbroad (fotr h is premiss. lelrepeal first cai-iie in. If they will look at page 182 of Sir, tie situation of the committee which acted ipp- the debates, they will see that it first made its apon the resolution now in question, was siiliilar in on they illse tt it first de its aprespect, to thtat of this Convenition. Some of its mrem- pearance in the form of an amendmeint. It was inbers wvho professed democracy, proved treacherous to tro(luced ty the talented gertleman theON) representing democratic principles! The gentleman from Licking the ceuniitv of Fairfiel(l,. (Mr. ROhIRTSON). He vas a knows very w ell, thcat there have al\vays been traitors i faithfil sentinel He saw the faithlessness and treaiio ev id the denhaoealraayic cabep. t r son of theleaders of the party in this important mat ter. He it was, iho ullndertook the enterprise to Mr. ClSE. I believe the gentleman from Glierl- drag in this impoitant-this cardinal-this fundasey, (M. Lci,) is correct. And his statemet ntal principle of democracy at the back door, bemakes the case a still stroinger one; for it appears that, cause 11o0e of thle new lights-the fathers of the pareven in reoard to the obnoxious. irresponsible, rotten tv were willing to assumne the respoisibility of leadba,,ks of the State, a committee composed of tvent- iv- " it in, by the front. And thus this doctrine of one, selected for their purity and radicalisd -li, stood lliladult(erated repeal crept ilnto the Conveutionl, in the fifteen agais,t to six in favor of a article declariiigtlhe form of an auenuldment! He re was a bold avowal of legislative right of repeal. This cannot be looked a principle! This was true democracy for vonZ' LastIup,)l as a very strong democratic sanctioin of the in honortoRobertson! Faithfullie amidstthefaithpririciple. less-bold amoi.g the timrnid. If this was a d,,ct.rine of that vital importanlce if this wh as a dctrine of th-at vital importance hHere i s his arnendriueot, pure, unadulterated, unqualitwhich gtentlemen coutend, why was it hot then pitin fd, unmitigated, retro-active and retrospective repeal. the~ t fthe gpellan at tforto k II read from part 1, )age 182, Monday, June 3d, in the M. LEE0[-I. If the gentleman wants to knlow, I Man tellim. ThIat eienliiittce was constructedsome- year of our Lord 1850, and the first year of the ses,can tell him. That commiiit.tee- was constructed some sinof the Ollio Constitutional Conveutipon: thing as the party is represented in this Convention SIOt of the Oio Constitutional Conveltiong "lr. ROBF.RTSOI pres,ented the foliown amnmn There wsere somne of the mlembllers who had nIot, the ir ~F~opeltd hf~o nafldel There tv r so fme of t the miembers who had not thl( to the 25th section of the Legislative Report: nerve to come up -to the avowed principles of the Provided, that the Geucral Assembly, ii session, pary- t \T% lotdenec3buttha th rilltof e- "Provided, that the General Assembly, inl session, party. It viai not denied, but that the right of re shul I ve, tlhe power to amnend or revoke any charter peal was a cardinal principle, but thle question before of ave tie power to atnedd or revoke any i hartAr of ticorporation granted by any precediug Genieal Asthe comumittee was, shall the democratic party now sembly." inscribe it on their banners? This the radical mnem- ml bers were in favor of; but there were TRAITORS in the Mr KIRWOO, the gentlma from Richand was camp shocked and startled at this proposition, and at Mr. CASE. Pretty good-only six true men out of once moved the followiug as a substitute: "Provided, twenty-one -rivTaEa TRAITORS! I have heard of that all laws and amendnmentspthereto, conferringcor eleven obstinate jurymen! (Laughter.) Well. what porate powers or tranchises, or special privileges, on has been done since? At the Convention of January i,dividnals, shall contain all express provision, pro 1850, was thecre anything about repeal? Nothing._ viding that'the Legislature shall have power to repeal At ihe Convcention of the Fourth (If July subsequent, or amend the same, and nI) law shall have force unless what viwas said upon the subject? Not a word. Is such provision be cellltained therein." that the w ay that democracy proclaims its doctrines That was prospective ini its operation —a sensible to the worlds? Were there trfoitors in all these bodies? provision —one that we would all go for. The saimie Were a majority of the members traitors? There are is contaiiied in the New York constitution. But thle a great rnaiiy tiaitors. We hav~e twelvo here, upon doctrine which vou contend for here is absolute, unil whom senten e has been passed, of reprobatioii here, qualified, retro-active repeal, which ought never to be aud damnation hereafter! (Laughter). found in aiy constitutioni. The gentleman from Rich 489 490 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY.5. land, [MAr. KIRkXwooD,] was right then, and I hope to find himi occupying the same position still. But here, when we voted against this proposition for retrospec tive repeal, the crv went out upon the winds, that we twelve men here had -Voted a,ainst repeal, a cry which was in part true, and in part false. It might just as well have been said that the thirty who voted against the amren(idment of Judge VANCE, voted against repeal, for his am,endinent provided for repeal. Mr. MIITCHELL, (interposing.) I wan,t to know when we voted upon VANCE'.S amendment? Mr. CASE. I will show you. Mr. MITCHELL. That proposition never was voted upon. It was referred. Mr. CASE. Well, I kni ow I advocated it, and voted against the motion to mutilate it, as well as to refer it. Mr. MITCHELL. Yes, sir; you voted all the time consistently. MNr. CASE. If I did not, I intended to. Mr. MITCHELL. You voted, also, againist the anmendment of the gentleman from Trunmbull, [Mr. P. AN.NLEY. j Mr. CASE. If I did not, I intens(ed to. But ltw as reserved for the gentlemana then from Fairfield, [Mr. RaBeRTSOx,] now far in the Western wilds, to bring forward this doctritie-this doctrine for which Judge VANCE's constituents are now, this dav, this hour,trying himn for repudiating-this doctrinle, the entlemTan fromr Fralnklin, [Mr. SwA.,-,] gave a dose last ev ening, which has turned this chlronic disease of repeal into fits, and like thle quack doctor, we can now mianaige it, for, like the quack. we are h-11 on fits. (Great laughlter.) Mr. MITCHELL. (interrupting.) Did not both the gentleman front Liekiun, [Mr. CASE,] and the gentleman- from Franklin, [Mr. SWAN,] vote directly against a proposition that obviated your objection? Mr. CASE. That is a very general question. Mr. MITCHELL. It is so recorded. Mr. CASE. Well, whatever is said in the book, I will stantd up to. Although they have got me down wrong in many particulars, yet these reports have more than once already saved mrne from the imaw of falsifiers. At one time Iwas opposed to reporting here; but I am thankftl now that we h av e a repaorter to save us from misrepresentation But I am goindg to trace the history of this propositioin for unadulterated repeal, to its source-atid it is almost as troublesome, as it was to find the source of the Nile-and havitig found the source, who can trace its cour.e? Its wandering has been like that of Eneasafter the sack of Troy, and its fate almost as variOtis aud hard. Oh! for a Virgil to put it in song' -But Robertsohi's amenidrimenit was dropped, an)d then came the arneu(dniieit of the genitleutan froti Medin ia, [Mr HUMPIiREvILLE.]'Ihis was a proposition to repeal upon trms Judge Vatice, also, 1had a proposition biefore thie body at the same time. BLit the proposition of the genitlemain rom Me(itina, was defective in thlisthat it contaitned no provision for altering or amenlding charters. Mr. LAWRENCE (in his s eat.) Myresolution obviates that difficulty. Mr. CASE. Yes: your resoulution obviate~s evterythings; mleans airythinig; mneanis nothinig; designe d, I supp}ose, to harmonlize the democratic pvarty uponI this q ueslion. M~r. LAYVRENCE. Certainly, I meant to do theat. Mr. CASE. But let me trace this tlhitgalong. Byaisvobye, theaowend orant of t hee geftlean f ro sei Medirea, is voted down, anid tierown overboard; and then, after coming down upon us "'twelve," who voted against it, ikie "$tenth lousanxd of brick," boxth here, andi through nearly every party press in the gState, the committee bring in something novel, and of their own, an d it now lies Mn our table, ready to be acted on, wen wo e cart reach it. But gI,f~tlemen are not content with t hat. Even tlhe coini-mittee could not fix the charm exactly righit-aEd at last, the genutlemya n froim Gueioia sey, (Mr. LAWRF. NCE,) comes in fresh from the people, wil) I h is propos ition, repud iating Roberts n onr, the hge ntle an frorn Medin a, and thte last report of the cotmm nittee oy whd icd n we find th e ge D otlemai froCr Allglaize, (Mr. SAWYEr,, and the gentleiman from Hamilton, (Mr. reEoIL n av) the gentleman fromn Guertosey, comiies it:, I say, wvitih his amnendment, ainoundtilg-as is admitted by its? 'friends-to anything, or nothing, to suit customtiers, and lo! the twelve cared in,, al nd v oted ifor it; ad I have no doubt, i this is the cry to-day, in Beiter couity. There must be something itlherently wronag, in- this thing, or it would not h-iave been (driven from pillar to post, as it has beetn. But now, I say to gentlemeni, fix your day and e will be with you, upon this question-. Do not take us bv surprise. Don't amiibush us. Titat is an inhuman ki'nd of warfare. For ny3ae,f, I do not care how quick the contest coomes ou. I am in har n,-ss. I can live in a stormn as lorg tas any nan; and I say now, let it come, and let it rage-yes; ' Double, double toil and trouble," "Like a hell brotlh, boil anid bubble.c" Mr. MITCHELL (initerposinlg.) I desire to ask t}}p gentleman onie or two qt,estiotis. Mr. CASE. Brinig thierm ol. Mr. MITCHELL. I w%anit to bring tl3e gentlem-,ii upon paper. Ate you now in fa-vor otf retro-active reo peal? Mr. CASE. CertainlIy. Mr. HITCHCOCK (of Geauga.) I call to order. I do inot know that we have any rule which authoriaze this sort of catechism, untless the questions are written down. Mr. MITCHELL. I am in order, sir. I have my questions it) writing. Mr. CASE. I wll! state the point. The wlhig par ty, as represented hlere, and elsewhere, in the Slate, be lieve that you canniot grant to the General Assemrrbly, the. power of rep,eal, because a charter is, as thiev say, a contract, and it is true, thiat it has been so decidted },y the Suprerne Court of Uniited States,, no longer ago, than at their term for the year 1848. Mr. REEME LIN, (in his seat.) They decided no such thii-ng. Mr. M1ITCHELI, No tl)at is not true; the courts have decidea that it is a contract. Mr. CASE. If gentlemen will look;Into 6 Howar dl's Reports, they will fitnd thwat, iii the ase orfthe, Planters' Ban-ik of Mi'sssippi, tlhose renowned Judges of the Jaickson) demi-iocratic sclhool, Chiief Juis,tie Tapi~ey, whlo removed the "depositr s,'7 Find Le?)i TIoodb?.,ry, who issued the, "'spe(cie circular," decided, in that case,that a batik charter was a conitract, atnd asserted that the ques-ion was not open for argument, in the Supreiie Court. Mr. MITCHELL. Does the genitleman say, that the decision in tle Da,rtmnouthit Coll-ge case, and the case of the Plantel~rs Banlk of Mtississippi inl 6th [low. ard are ~ood antholsrily? M~r. CASE. I should not hesitate to quolte thems it atyy court. M~r. MITwCttELL. You regard it as good auth~ority, then. Mr. CASE. Unidoubted legal aut!~ority. Mr. MIlTCHELL Very well. Are you in favor af prospe-ctive repeal? Mr. CASE. I tell you Iam; 1 haveZ voted for it as ~you knsow, and always advocated it here, an~d I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNEsDy,Y FFBRUARY 5. ain going to britig you up to that doctrine of the'hearing, and if guilty of an infraction of the law, forparty, and I do not intend to let you dod],J? it. Our feit their charter, arid no one has been so f~_)ili as to position is the only position upon which this favorite contenid for daiia,,,e in such e doctrine of repeal cani be carried out —piedicating the But in all cases of damages, I w,,uld give the right power upon the right of eminent dotain. And let inm of trial by jury, wlhereas those who differ with uis erneark here, what is worthy of remark, and of every would, at least, that porn ion who ti lhe doeroan's atteutioii,that, for thirty years past, the Supremii trini of dai-iaes at all, send the case to the e(ir,laCourt of the U. S. have held a charter to be a contract; ture to be settled Strang~e po~itiosrt these reattenseri and the Stat,s of this Union,!lave recognized tihit de. et into, when mnakin' i Caonstitiiltiis which w iuaaicision, to be the law of the laud-every State and every tees the right of trial by jury, that they wohlil deprive court in this country; and there is no decision to be corporations of it irs these cases-whetn the property found to the contrary. Therefore, this is asfirmily set- of private itidividuals is takei)i ttiey, like all of nS, tied and fixed as aity principle of law can be. Is it not are tenacious of the right of trial l'V juryn but with remarkable, then, that, if the people are. dissatisfied corporationts they havetadifferentrole Is it possible, with these decisions, that they should have acquiesced that on this fiooi, in a Constitutional Convention, in them for as long a time as thirty years? Not a single where we are all swor-n to support the Co)tstitulion (if State has asked that the Cotistilution of the Federal the United States, which luaiantee~ the rig-it of trial Government shoult be so alter,-d, or amended, as to by jury, that men can be found to advocate its atiremedy the alleged evils resultinl from these decisions. donment in any case? That that most sacred of all Every gent lemtiain knows that the Constitution of the rights to ain Amiiecat sihould be strnck down in this General Governin~nt can be amendetd, upon the de- body? That right,, without which all else in your maod of the Stales; every gentleman knows that this Constitution is compaiatively valueless, and without, has been done. In 1790, I think the State of Georgia, which we should not be enititled to be called a free was made a party defendant in a suit before the Feder- people. Oh! I love and adore this triail by jury-a al Court, in which it was decided, that a sovereitn State jury of the vicin'age-it never has in this, countrv been was liable to be sued,by virtue of the provisi(;t,s of the yet put to the test: but who shall say how long it nay Constitution of th, U. S. And the reuiipoii the hegisla- be till it shall be put to the severist test;. Iin Egtore of the State of Georgia raised this question, at,d land it has itiore thnia once rescued the markled and in less tIan two years from that time,,lie tates united devoted victim of T ra inny' more tbh,1 (nee sliate(l and siienidedi the (;onslitution of tie Uiiii,-d Sateas, o patriots front gibbet and gallows, erected for thiem by thalt now a State cainuot be so sued. And riow I veit- ltyrants. ture to affirni that you cannot fiud cue out of ten of Look, sir, to your Dec] aration of Iiidependence, atid these sovereigit States in f6vor of deinandiug an neniI- you will there find, that among the many grievances metit of the Federal Conistitulioti, so as to over rule of whicli our fat. hers complained against the mother these decisions. For myself, the inore I examine therti, country,- was thisthe niore I am r, conciled to them. "For depriving us in many cases of the benrft of' Sir. I hold in titter abh!idrreiice every attempt which TRIAL BY JUa Y is made to cultivate amoigst the people, a contempt for And. will gentlemnen give alarge class of our citiour court- of justice. I tell you sir, that our people zens, who own stock and shares in the thonsands of have settled in their lieart,a respect for the courts. It public iniprovements, scattered over this gereat State, is there that they look for the protection of their iprop- and whichi have done very much towards placing erty,of their liberty acd rights; and it is there that they Ohio in her present pro.perous condition, I say, will will always find thum morie justly appreciated and de- you give that class a pretext for holding up that Defended than anywhere else. claration of Indepeindence-thie Conrtitution of the Now, I say,sir, we plant ourselves upon the right of United States, aid the tContstiution of Ohlio-atid say, eminent domain. We adopt the languge, of the Bill of webhave been singled o0t, and deprived of the sarights in our present Cotistitutioti which reads as fol- cred right of trial by jirv, griairanteed in these iilows. struriretits —that dearest right of an Atoeerictir citizen'? 'Sac. 4. That private propert ouglht and shall No. Let us rather, in thre l ang ae of I,ackson, say: ever be held inviolate, but always subservient to the "Equal andl exact jostice to fill andefavors to none." public wefl-are, provided a compensation in money be Mr. RANNEY. I wish to say a'word, by way of made to the owner." perrsorn'al explanation, in reference to the attack made We plant ourselves there, and there we have the upon me by the gentlemann from I Liclkiin, for which I Supreirie Court of the Uiuted States with us, atid weic rinever have given hits any occasion'ahaitever. I exsay that any charter can be repealed before it has run pressly stated, in the reimrks I made that I supposed out, and without any fault of the corporators, whiet- every genrtlinan 1d voted atccoirdirig to tihe dictates ever the public weljare demnandds it, provided that a of his own udgriiaert ripoiir this qiuesti llod thiouirghl compensation be paid-provided that you make the I hrivel diffe-red from soimi of our derrrocratric friend,a party who is in rio wrong, whole in damages for what totally aid entirely; thioug'h I h'ave ii,aiiitai3r(ed my injury you do hier by the repeal —we do not say that position with what zeail I could c'air-iestly -aed honest ou shasll pav for the franchise as a separate indepen- ly exert, yet I cannot, atdilit that I have,aid anythipg, dent thi', but it b,ing rmixe,1 up with other real and which will warrant an acrimonious reiark from any personal p-operty,which cannot be enjoyed without it, quarter whatever. that, when yout destroy that franchise, you therehy The geittlemars frorm ILick~ing ra~ atsserted that I impair such real aind personal property, and thait to have appeared ont I,{(th sides of this qurestronsthat, that extent the owirer should be compensated, and I hav'e stated that a charter of iricotptriatio'i is pro madewhoe; or t mkesno difference whettier oite' pet y, hile T havet been ailso conitcenling agatinst that: property is takers, diestroyed, or impaired, for the public idea. Thi genitlenman refer to the pubslished debates welfare; in each ease the party injured should be made to prove his assetrein. I confess, sir, that I was whole. never niore astonished ini my life, tihan tis hear that, the No man on this floor has ever contended for a cent gerntlemais asade this assertitin. Because I made of compensation, witeti the charter of incorporation some rentarks opon this subject directly iin reply to has heeti broken, or where- the corperaters have bro- the gentleman fromn Licking,' while his se,at was right, ken tihe law'. In such case give the cempatty a fa., before me, whete he mfust have heard what I said, as 491 492 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5. he frequently interrupted me with questions. He must have known the position which I took. He could not have been mistaken. Still, with this perfect knowledge of my position, he affirms that I said an act of incorporation was property. Mr. CASE of Licking. I merely read from your speech, ill the debates and let that speak for itself. Mr. RANNEY. I has-e heard of pettifoggers palming off spurious law, upon a Justice of the Peace, by reading a single passage from a book, but I want to see no pettifogging in that sense, undertaken here. I will now look into our reports a little, for niy position upon this question, and will read a few extracts from rev remarks in that very debate. On page 250, I say:'"It is my doctrine, nevertheless, that the Legislature have the power, und the right to do afway the privileges and franchises they have granted, and that Nitlihit compensation. The franchises, I say-i-not property. "Anv body that cannot distinigu,islh between the mere artificial person, the creature of legislative power, and their property, cannot mrake a verv close d(listinction. I would not t,,uch one cenit of the property of a coerpora,tiorn any sooner than I wouild that of an individual. I would guard the right of property with the same fidelity, whether it were the property of rich or poor, corporations or private individuals. Sir, I have always claimed, that the rights of property should forever remain inviolate, and I trust that my votes here have gSiven no indication of a willing]ess to relinquish that claim. The acqirisition aend ieqtoymente of private property is a natural right. Governme-nt is boundl to protect it. The State does riot cronfer it, aid ought nriot to invade it. The State e-,oes noet confer all corporate powers and privileges. Wllieni it takes them away, it takes nothirng but what it hae conferred. The public good, guided by justice to all, should control both in the grant, and its resumiptioii by the State." Attain, on page 51,, I avM: "W-hat is p:'operty? We have all been accustomed to re(gard it as soniethirig tangible. Wbhen we hatve acquirel a horse, ori a farmn, we knirow what it is. But t the idea t-hat voir can cheat the Legislature into the gqrant of some exclusive privilege, and call that propertvy, is certainly the most abs,urd of all humbugs." And again, on page 2r52: "The gentleman froim Licking puts his whole argument upon the ground that a franchise is propery, and that we are bound to p,otect the right of property. But I ask that gentlerrman, if he cannot distillguish between property which an individual may own eand the bare legislative privilege to use it in a particuvlar mnanner? It seems to iec there is a very palpable distinction." The gentleman from Franklin, (MAr. STANBiRY,) re- plied to me. and on page 261, he savt: "A franchise is not property! This I believe was first heard in this debate from the gentleman from Miami, (Mr. DopSEY,) 1who. I am sorry to see is not in his place; and it was reiterated by the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNnEY,) who, I am happy to see is in his seat. A doctor of Medicine and a doctor of Laws, have told us there is no property iii a franchise.' All these explicit statements There made in the hearng of the gentleman from Licking, and yet he undertakes to catch up a single seitenec, incorrectly repor-t ted, to prove that I affirmed an act of incorporation to be property. Now I come to the p assag,e alluded to by the sen tlenian. It had been argued by certain gentlemen that we could repeal an act of incorporation, upon the ground that property may b, taken for public use. I undertook to show, in reply, that we could not take property always, even for the public good; that a public use to which it was applied, must be shown. Therefore, that would not cover the ground claimed for the power of repeal, even if a charter was all that was claimed for it. A single word put into rmy mouth, which, as it stands in the isolated phrase, does not express my meaning; but taken in connection with other sentences, my meaning is clear, and does not in the least warrant the distorted construction attempted to be put up()n it. Suc h a tNhouglt as that th ose charters were to be considered or treated ais property, never entered my heart, and such a word never escaped miiy lips. Now, I believe thae re is not a man upon this floor, that would stand up and state that I ever admitted here an act of incorporation t o be property-not oneand if the gegntlemai fronm Lickieg n could possibly have been misled by this report, I would have forgiven him; for I have no personal controversy with him whatever. I hate personal controversy above ground. But I cannot sit here and hear myself misrepresented be a gentlemian who must know, perfectly well. my position1. If he had not sat there before me and put to me questions, in answer to which I pronounced the assumption of property in a charter to be a lhui-nbug, I could have excused himy. I say, under such circumstances, I could have excuise d him for beirigmdisled by a slip of the pen in the report. Mr. CASE of Licking, (ir his seat.) I mereiy stated that, you were found on both sides in the report. I did not say what vour opinion may be. Mr. RAN NEY Does the gentleman pretend to say that he ever heard me state, that a charter was property? Mr. CASE. I did not hear you make that speech. Mr. RANNEY. But you have heard me several times in these debates. Mr. CASE. I agree to that. Mr. RANNEY. Now, what kind of candor is that? I amn not so great an ass as to change my position uponl the samoe page. I may have been wrong, and I may lhave contended for the wrong; but no man gets me into this kind of a scrape. And I affirrm- that every man, Mwho looks at this report, will say that the meaning and spirit of it is as I have represented. But the gentleman from Licking says he has heard a lawyer declare that a man whvlo contends that a charter is not property, must be either a knave or a fool. Mr. CASE. I said I would not say so. Mr. RANNEY. Why then did you lug in this phrase, and apply it to me? Mr. C ASE. Just because I-pleased. I applied it to nob,dy. I disclaimed adopting it. Mr. RANNEY. You mist please then to stand responsible. If a man will retake a blackguard of himself, he must not complain if he is treated as such. In one breath you say I conitended for that doctrine, and then you bring in the remark of some blackguard lawyer, anid qucte, that a man must be either a fool or a knave, who would do such a thing. The gentleman mayv be a great lawyer, for all that I know, but I cert~ainly do not envy the reputation which he still gain in this way. N?or dlo I impeach the gentlemanl's courage. He is doubtless a very coulrageous rnan. I take that for granted. But I have heard of boys whistling to keep their corn'age lup, when they were going through a grave yard. I do nIot know but I could rnoint to sconme eight or ten gentlemen who stand here qluivering and whistling anid shiversing ill their boots, on account of the position which they have assumed upon this question. I do not say that this is the fact, I t d p t ai Mr. HAWhINS. I kiow the gentleman- from Auglaize wants to shield his friend from an exposure of his infamv. iMr. SAWYER, (in his seat.) I do not. MrL. REEMELIN. I rise to the question that there is no question of privilege. If there is to be any browbeatii,ng here, 1 suppose I can take miy shaare. I ask for a decision of the chair, onl the poitit wviiclif I have made. ,M1r. HIOLMEIES. I hope my frienid will allow the gentletnan lronr MIorganl to proceed. The Presdl(.,. t raps to ofrer. atMr. HAWKINS. Throw your shlield over hlimsave him if you cani. ' The PRESntioEN. Tm eCoyv,it iou l has givthe tle gentlermatn fromn NMorgani leave to proceed. Th'e Chair heard no objection ,Nlr. REE.MELIN. TIhe C,hlair heard nio objection)! I obWectel, sndi rose to niy feet at the tirne. MNir. LIDEY. I reove that the Ciiolvvetiot i take a recess. Mkr. I-AWKINS. Th,- gentlemi)an from Perr)y has no riglit to thIe fl(oor. Tihe PRESIDEN'F. The gen'tleman from Morgan will proceed. ,Mr. HJAWKINS. I return nmy ackniowledgnmi,Yts foT the op}portunity of beind heard, -an1d uiIless I shIall be put down by the Chair, I will proceed. I sa) that I hiave been slaInidered foully thlrouf2I} tIIe,-, medium of the Er,qutirer of tlhis city, and the genltleman fi-(n) forum bull b~as been the first to catch up ti~ese foul slatide,s aI, d retail thiemi lh, re, and by way of def'nee-a rad all the defence which I nmeani to maketI tmerelv wish to let the Conventioll my conjstittuents, and t)-ie pu)lic, know who is tile author of these slanders. I deein it due to raystIf and to those whom I represenit, to miake this knownVD here, and now. I sav theat Hliramii H Rob inison is tlle atuthor of tIese slatnderous statements their character leaves no doubt of their authlor's iden tity-there is none more skilled than he is in falsehood and vituperation-ione that can compress more of this kind of mnatter in a small compass. Who, thien, is this that has so repeatedly charged ts with tre,chery and with violation of our oaths in this chamber? V, ho is H. H. Robinson, whose name is krown as widely as the circulation of the Cinci,nnati Enquirer, but whose inifarmiy may not be kniownl to the same extent? I have kn)ow n him fr-m his youth up, and as a pri vate individual I am not going to sa,y anjything against ty and corruption, the Cai'ton Banak charter, down to, tile time he moved the reconsideration of thei vote of yesterday adoptiug the aumeudtriet of the genitleman frorm Guernsey, (Mrt. LAWRENCE,) with the single ex ception that lie voted for that amendruent oti yesterdiay. Mr. HAWKINS. I thank ete getleman from Trtliribvill, for affording mer the oplpotunity of alludine to mry vote against the repeal of the charter of the Canton Bank. The gentlemen seems to be dessirons of being considered very courteous, and he \would represetit hims,elf to be very senlsitive. But notw \ithstanding all his sensitiveness, he is wilinig to take up arid rehearse here, a stale and uufo)nirded slander, got uip by a reckless newNspaper e(litor of this city. Thus it is, that hle proves th1e sin~cerity of his desire to) be courteous. I shorild think tlat a gentlenman of his powers of mind, must b)e hard pressed for inatter of reproach againist nie, if t1hat waas the olily thing that he could lighlt uponl, which he could employ for thei purpose of thro'wing political obloquy upon me, butr this seems to be the onl]y item ohich he could broaclh as an ilpeacl.rnenlt of yiv intoegrity is a democrat. Anrd in tle instance of that vote, no, "for the,rotection," but against the repeal of the Canton Bank, I hla1d a rm,a,ority of the democratic nmemiibers of the Setiate who voted with nie. Aye sic, I w —as sustained ini that vote by'lhard money" democrat sdemocrats as hard as the uetliher inilstonre. Atid niore than, that I w-as sustainied in that vote by a distinguished clemocrat, (Mr. Tod,) lwho has since been both the hardl arid the soft Tnoney (leiiiocratic candidate fbor Governor of Ohio. I htad as good coitpariv iii that vrote as thel gentleman from Ti-unimbill himtself. Well, sir, the author of this foul libel, (first announiced in this House bv the genitlemnan from Truribull,) just like the gentlemniai fiom Trumbull -was driven to the necessity of taking it rip as a reproach araing t me, iii the absence of any other vote of mine toc which he coulil point, for the purpose of disparagirig me as a democrat, the author of this material of abuse, which has been finrniished( to the hand by the gentleman from Trlmbull, is Hirani H. Robi tison T, one of the present editors of the Cincinnati Enuqtuirer, aud since it appears to be his design, to attack myself arid others, iii a series.of calumnies, I wish to inform the Convention, and the public at once, who this Hiraii H. Rtohinson is. ,Nfr. SAWYER. I rise to a question of order. 491 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE.SI)AY, FEBRUARY 5. him more-t-aii this: that many prayers, anrd the influ ence of much pious precept and exaniple, have beeno) expended upori hirti for iiaiight. Bnt it is as a public, man that I intend to deal with li i —as a pulilic joor tralist, lie p)urblished a ater imate arative i1 Mte t county, and from my knowledge tf the people of Mor gan' county, lo w-hom he lias appiealed in refereuce to ray votes here, I caii tell iii ii thiat lie has f_fone to thei i wrong people, if(r I have a double advaitage of iII tto there; one of these advantages is, that I have' b1.eii know'.n there for tlirty years; andr the greate r i n ntai t tage which I have )v,r him is, that ie also is k nowii there. Laughter.] Arid I.tead here in) iiiv pircen and proclaim, and assert, tiat iii that county lie,tat,Is uipoit the indelible pubii(rc records of that cou ylily, rluict an d brandiet d as a tibeller. Thit is the way he slati(is tiere, and that is riot all; iiere is iiore, ttiat I do not wish to reniark upor here; there,ire suspicionis wride-spread throughout that coliity-suspicionis that [ have it hetou concurred iI. nor do I.esire to stredgtien theni a the A voice. Give it all. M,Nr. H~AWKINS. I wildo as the Coiiveiitioni sha-ll[ perriit 1mie; I slhall not pr((ceed upon the dictation of those who desire ti shiei ldi a calurniriator of this b~odyv. Sbil.theovsbently-cttis Mlirr Iwrobilisof itlido beate the fLllb ilisher of the Washington Daily'iines, (Ia herben i n Ill in his vocatioi n de r ard vitufierat-orr, lie, had ieen but a fItw weeks iii that capacity till foir the publication of a lirol article up~) tih clharacter of the Senate of the Unrited State,s, lie was arrargned be fore a cornmrittee of that body, andi afteri a full idaib ita hearing, proniurced without a disseirtirirg voic o e ,of the Senate, ia self-conrdernrrerl incorrigible libell i et, and ail who had beeo urifoctutriaely ci-oriect I witlih hui, together with hirinrelf, were spurned arrd expol a e(d from their places in the Reporteer's gallery. 'Mr. S AWYER (interposing and MIr. H. giving way:) I walit the geritle(inan to tell the Convention what it was that was alleged as the cause of this treatririrnt tof Mr. Roiirnsioni, and J waht to ask thie g'etlemioait whether the saime Se nal t, an riborit the inite Mime, did not pu[ telicr claws ilnto Father Ritchie's hair ard t drag hill[ wit bout tiie bar0c? M M Ir. HAWKI NS I do not inteird that he sual t o bring Father Iitcliire iii here to shield thlis nian.' Tiese ac,croiunits I suppose can all be found in the lirbrary, as thcy have boen ecopied into the Cone ire sioenal Gloile. T irs Mr. Robinson has lon( be'en tnown p as o ho "iaide crooked ai-ltce ali rrircnet," id a had riii cisillitres been imore cailokis, than those 1 of Cain of old, he muiist have felt tilliction, oi account of the rebukes aird deep ireffaceable icaraids l th -at hf bitve I been starriped upon tht iri. MIr. J{,oll in ilri'n coimes toi this city 11if tassumes I tire cII 1',ct 1of tlieJEtiqriirer,:aid now le cem to be th i- i sireus of pirp(eetriatililg irs railine tby secfrin 1 a ir f ir himnself ipoin dir rec'-irds of this CoIiventio1". re, leth in Iim av i t. I wish it; to eI kriowni id as siciil at least a as the circulation of the C iriciririnti ELqiure-e, w-Io f t]is iridividual is, wa whait ie is, ithat hi a broght I Ihose fial chalrges against Is. He is ri iriwho can d u'ith equal relish, darimn the inoniory of the dead aid idt rho chacacti'rf [iite living.r Arid i wish himIr u' disl-rc n'i ueto frcn ttiretly to unrd(erstand, that iltirough Ire may falsely'sieitrr 110Carliitlia ic'avrudhi charge rae with enterctariningi "ccnterii.it for ilice pis, otoori i biieTirraetrenrsei," cioii and uf Ifivoer ing s-peciail privil egos, neither liy ton }i:)aeItiisupii tei aosadr rae i teiipt nor Iris rirfariy, slyall socrire bum air itiiilluriity (i nrtcrtrri M lorio, isiirrrg iri Iris clicrishied vocation of daily slairiec arid vitir- slildaebenilcet itrebr. Tr 0il peratiori-ia ih oaktri.ir ir'i hsCivnin MWilh regard to tire other matter which tire gcertl(.- shoidro ) prtiiptnlsublsan or man from'rurmbull, (Mr. RANN~EYt,) has brougir 11sra res u rcwsnihertir teipr of agaiMst rie, I desir-e to say oerI word. it was upon 11Chr,oofliCovrto anwewr1tetire Judiciary Bill, and I remember I was anxious totreinsieooueneortotecrraycn get along with it. T'he gen~tlemiani had made ai' elab)orate a nivit all ainst the bill. Atito tha egr ett pon e I askIied the chiair-man of the commitittee whethr3cou y terms we re p rrktactica to der the sysbemr, and beitngi aniswbeired it ilrh e afbforbative, I stated tha t I wa s satisfie,d ai.d sh-ouild vote fin' the bill. TIn a suibsequen-t reply, the genitlemiant fi-oi — Triurmbtill, stated that tlte ifi-it!m'ice at~ h seat, of governmien-t., anid other cenit~ra~l points ini thie dis,tri-(l~s, wNNould pr-evenlt c,ounty terms. Thla~t the lawiyers, anid hotel keepers wouild exercise th-eir inifluenc(e upioni the L~egislIatuire lo prevenit the tak~-ing aw-Nay of the court sessions froii these central points, and tl.e~re, by prevenit anl cou.nt~y terins. Th'Iis of course -wou)ld -be a corrupt inifluieice, aind I stated'in re(ply, that; if i~t were exer~cised by then lawyers anid hiot~e-l keeper-s referred to, they must be I set of rasc-al~s. Jt was tmv iniferencee drawn, fromii the~ remariiks,- of the( gei-tleiimai fi'omn Tramiiibul'l. I saw at the timie thalt the ~2nlmns feelings were t(ouched, and T took occasion to Tmee~t hiin~ at hiis o-wn desk anid thene candidly s-tatedI to hiim- tlitat I regretled the re,miark that seemned to ha,-ve off-ended hiimi, an-d the gertmanii seeirhed to be satisfied. MNr. RAiNNEY. I shou)tld never ha-ive- alludied to the subjec-t in- thle world., if it, had not, been fo,llowed tip to~-d-ay, with the reiiiarkl that it, wias out- of orde(Ir, eveni to suppose that I have beeni consistent. Iche getlema threftire list attribul)te the niotice which I hia\ve tak~en of this iiia~ter, to this attempt to east a slur up~on iie. iMri. ltAWKINS. It, w\xotld require a little con — striiction to iiiike the tq( rk of,(-)-day applicable to the g'nlmnfrom rriiiit),ull. I s;pyiiuquir(cd wh-ethier miiv g'eiit~leiian whlio)ihad spokeci ais ilich ars the g int.lei-rii i'roii'l'riii-buill, shIould be relquired to establish his ownr coiji.t tiseve. On morioni~i, the Coniveliion took a r-ecess. OIHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —WED'~EsDAY, FEBRUARY 5. polled to wirees scenei such as would disgrace the Mr HAWKICNS. I sul)pose I miay be permitted, m11ost disor(ly asseIimbly. We were c(nllIi)elled see un tir to allu,ilo to some of the re.such loen as t,oe geitlcIIeen froio Clarl, Ross, Mus-,nfl I tho geI lenan filo1)1 [Mr. RE['0,tkingium and Warren, (Ml.-ssrs. MASO.N, WOP,~rIt\(G'PO-, o t.-.] That genitlemnain says I have been receiving CliOA,BEl:s and S~.IIH), cheerillg', yea oissing (n the pl)o(itiols fti1r tihe othir sidI —that I have becoim i:{eltleua0 frtom M',)r,'l, (Mr. H_AWKINS ) in his con5rse a lii( (of c(Ii catil:,l for Whig suggest9ion of abuse and de faomati(on, c0ies of "leav leave," and upon this floor. All I hlave to say in reply to this is, "procee(l, proceed" resounded from all pa ts of the that there is no truth in it, 0o1e in the wo:Id. ChamIbeir, and especially the whi igi side. Tlie g(iitle(i1a)1 froiii I:.Lt0ilto10 asks me to defend .-s to the quar)el betweenl Mr. IRobiioIn, one of the ImI vote in relation to tihe Canotoil B1aik. I votedI ed itors of the Cincin,natti J)aily Enquirer, and the genI- lIst the repeal of the chaIrter of that institution, t~riearn fro(nt Mlrgaii, (Mr3 1. H wlxs,) I hiave but little under thIese crcumistan..h Seinate had appointed t-o saly. Bhit I will say that if the libel chlar,e(d a eottnittteel, wt,Iiieh h eauxained into the coiidition :tg'aiilst the forinior as iayviing be)e pu blis h (1e iii Mo- of the bank, and irepoi'te(i favorably. The Gen eral g'i county, be of a siimilai charad(tr witli that, for Ass;er bly haad est ablisied a Board of Comiiiissioiiers, II:ch he wvas punished 1b)y tle S(e ate of 1i'J Uited d h(Ioe duty it was to exa mine into the condition and States, I for o1e, envy Iiiii, (Mr. Itobi,,IISIt) the pos-i clia,aCtr (Ithese ban)0 s, and a law hii(d been p1assed tioni he occupies. If the genittle'nlau fro(mi Morgian providing ftollv, a. was supposed: ag'ainst loss froom (1(o(s not knioow it, perinit me to itifoiriii himii that there banks iii iI are ihenosaaiid of honest hleart iii the Stale of Ohio, 1 ide a1t this,t bill -was introduced by Mr. who believed that the U. S. iiate s ron,;ron(Vand H a idirick a 1h ilemliber of the House of lRepre hiat Mr. Robihiioin was right upoI that que(stion. A t sentfdr ivos ti',m Preble counilty; aud tie dared the deI hat tiline, the riL,'hts of our coolitry to the whole of 11o1ra11s to vofte f,ii it. Ihe democrats of tle House, Oregon, up to the line of )4~'-),were in qu,estion hobe Ibeilng, ln wh 11(io are iiot to b) Tdaed with impunity, tweeli onr giovernmlienit and that of Great Bihtain. The passe(d the Iill i-id it caine up to thoe Senatte. About charge iiiadb I1v Mr. iRtobiisoni, was, that certain deil1 this tlim tie th,iBak seeiing thaIt solinething must be ol,"atic and certain wihig Senators had. at that impor (1n(e, fiuiid meais (of procuri:01 sp)eci e d cominienced t,iTlit crisis il our iiisi totr e, deingel M itli the Ie(1eniiirI thjiI liot(I,s. The })il p-.ro(posed anii uiconlrit,ishl an b:'.,sador, ait Watsiiogtoii, aiid at that (1i- ditioiial repeal of the charter. I t was plain, that if hecr table, theT treason a. concocted by which the the charter was r~epe~aled the pIapri of the BIank would Ainerican Eagle was mude to stoop to the British alai n del)rcite Under these circumstances I voted li11. do. ailist 1e repeal, an.1(d not oil accountt of ally purpose Sir, subseqoient eveiitsfhave iuinfortunlately furn-ilhe(d to "protect" th1 Biik itself, nor oii account of alny irrefragable proof, that such was the fact, and that scruplos as to the riht ot tho L(egislatuire to rel,,eal tCorwi, Maai(,01n and Webster, unlearned their duties tleior charter, hut fir veory (liff,relit reasons. The ai Ainericaii Senaiiitors, under the bewitching' smiles g'at e uqiiry M l wis wht public interest could be subof the )riti Ii anibissadmr.''lie Aeiiorican peo1l)01 sew, ti-v this repeal, undeir these circuiimstaniices; and J)ave long ago 0,:(ive their verdict that foul troasoi' b,eause this could not he an sworod satisfactloorily, the thei betrayed then, ani so far fromi helioving that bill was roject d in the Senate. Mc. Pobiniis-n Iltlftlv incuored aiiv stilgmla ha was Now, I shold 1(1 iiothave. obhected lo the slanderous attelopted to Iie fast ened upon him, tiley-and espec- article, to whico I hlave lludi,:d, if tho whole truth had idl-yte peo ple ()of Ohio-have long ago passed u0pon1 bee(n) 1old- if it had heeoii -stafted that I was su1,taiIed his cotidlict Nvith entire approbation. in that vote, b)v a majority of democrats in that Senate As to Mi tobijiison' being turned out of the Sot- — tlit I istained. e, not oiily by the vote of Mr. 'tle chaitoer, I have only to say that, althoughI 1 aiii 1)((1, who liasi si1ce been a promlinent candidate for not the. owiner of all insturance office, yet foir a vor iior u I II If)y tie vofei of Messrsy smli allp I will in0s0re tie gellonian from Milr- 2]itew McLaugliliii,,WaIlto,lhri g, ostegIllet, Stte agan, trItt l1 i' ill never be trlned ou1t of the Senate 1)o01 and Tlihoipsoin, whoso demiocracy had not bieenI bhaimboe, or auy other public body, fIor an excess of doubted-if this fact had b)eeni stated, it -wouil, have patriotism, ach ts Mr. R obi ns(n displayed upon )0reomoved all the point aud crisect (If the charge. ;lat occasion. le tiily be turned out for other c -, But I vas clharged in this newspaper article, wiftl but a forwardi)~e,ss 1i the discharge of higi4'h duties till having,tOem)ttd ti defend iiiyself for this vote aid never 1)0e one (f the fauilts of that geoutl('leiai',. life. with having fiiled to succeed. I desire now, a si'glC Had tfli c~i'tle, nan from Mlorgali deofTkded his vote 107)1o00e1t longer for this exllaiati(on. I rituriied hioime, uipoii the Ca:t(;n laiuk questioiii, I would iiot have bht I wa,s no1)0 candidate for re-election. Compil)lant's laid a straw i Iii his wav, for that vote is a h(e,avy bur- wer iiiado iii some quarters a gainst my vote, but my theo, ayd I would ot unnecessarily make it licavier. colleague, Jidge Itiiiia, (f the }louse of RepresontaNor will I follow his, exoInple by (jealing out to bhi tives, voted just as I did upon this Bilnk repleal bill. foul epoIthet. ini reply to t,osie 0 hurlile, agai nst Mr. We bolh volted the samie wNvay without havinigi' aiiy conIohitiisoii. Intet I caiin,t periiit the fact to escape the sultaioen upon the subje(t, alid he wa- a candidate for afttetioni of this Coriv(enl,iiin, that this,ioriiing,.while re-ehl('tioTn. Jud~,e Hanniia lad been denounced in the gentleman froiii M(organ was "'peaking, a Whiug the.iValley D,,ntem ocrat, of which Mr. Robiipassed (0(1ro d to his desk, and hlanded limt11 a picce of soii viwas ceitor. Well, Is usiial, in that couility there li~cli 11, ploiphu~fwas called a demnocratic nolminatinig'ovnin phaper',01 upoinwhsomthiing was wrte,pomptin himi oIl in his foul course0 against. Dem~ocrats. Sir, Judge Haima ivas a candidate fori nomioiioa 1011 a1(111 that fact abune (i eniou_,h to dotermine 100 to hold that other dist~ingishe~id dlelmocrat was ailso a cadidaite, gontlenman harmliess, hereafter, from anlythill I may Judgo lianona was iiomiinated1 by a t~riumphant niajorisar to him. flic Demo~icraf that has sonk so0 low as fy. I believe a1l11,flhat Mr. R(0J)linoli (170s n1omin ated to' boconie the filthy sewer of whiggery, 01)01 this at tile sa100 timue, for some olunty llfli('e if iiigihf he floor, ini heapinl{ its abuse 01)01 Democ rats, shall for county treasurer. Well, tIll obtoctionsw~hicelthad lioreaftor 1)a(1.'7scot;ree"-lie shall have;, at, least, so 1)00n made to'ludge Hailna, in the~ precedillg Legisfar as I am con,cerned, aii [open course in the down- lature induced so0111 t~o believe0 that be might be superward road fr'om thle Democratic party, to lis ancienf soded, and, accordingly, Rsq. Pugh, a good deiiocrut friends,-the Whiugs. arid a highly respectable citizeni, canie cot agalinst hii' 495 496 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDN.DESDAY, FFBRUARY 5. a- an independent candidate; and the whigs nomina ted no candidate at all; so that the issue upon that vote v-a, fairly made up. Well, how was the voce which [ gave, sustained by the people there? What was the d eision then made by which any one wouldp be vwair(tited in saying that I was not sustained? There was an extraordinary maiority of votes cast for Judge Hania. Is it then, for that vote, under those circumstances, that I am to be denounced as no demo crat, while no d,e-tonciation at all falls upon Mr. Teod, Mr. Mathews, Mr. McLaughlin and others, who voted with me, and who have almost all of them since t'hat time, received public favors at the hands of the democrats. 'tlis is the sort of evidence, upon which gentlemen may rely, if they can, f,,r the support of the allegation that I have never been right in the democratic party. But ili a suh)sequeit paper this Mr Robinson says that ever since I lelt the whig party, I have been endeavor i,g to get myself right. Now if it is a matter of any ilterest to this convention, I will state, that with the exception of one single vote, for the last thirty years, I have tutniformtly voted'with Those, who have been cngsidered exafnm)les and models of the dcoe.ratic par tv. Now I have one word more in reply to what I sta ted with re,gard to the course of Mr. Robinson in Washingtou city. I stated that the resolution for the expul sioni of Ml. Robinison'was passed in the United States Sen,ate without one dissenting voice. [lad not Ohio at that time a democratic Senator in that body? where was that Senator when this resolution was passed? Will the g(ulleman from Hamilton stan( up- to the charge that we haid no honest democrat in the Senate of the Untie,d States at that time? Mr. Pr-si(leiit, I can only say, that I regret the occasioti that seemed to call upon me to notice this mnatter in the first instanc-e. But Mr. Robinisoni is now here in our presence, anda I can speak freely. Heand I have re.ma~nalt persqonal friends for the last thirty years with scareel, an interruption; but in his examination of my public acts he has ever evinced an ui friendlv spirit; and all hist atacks upon m e hav e been like th e presetit, unttecessary an njstifiable, an d untae an see m to be thea promptirgs ol a maligniant h eart. I do not deny his right to comment freely upon my public acts, and criticise tr,ert witl, the greatest severity. But looking over all his charges against me as a public man, I am unable to regard then otherwise, than the pro m pting of malice arid the sp)irit of personal unfriendliness. He has enjoyed, inl his attacks upon me, free access to the public ear through the medium of the r wEnquirer," and nty apology for wny acti )n uhere in the premises is that tI ad no other means fot making the explanation wyhicth I (pesir rend to rak e. Mtr. MASON. he gentleman from tHa milton, (Mdr. i tEbMALI,,l,) seems to have come here this afternoon, and, il ltr,at wr;.th an d fur y to have taken the floor prep,rf,d to assail whomsoever might come into his mined fir,st; and, amongst others, he has referred dil'-.ctlv t,~ ti yself, by nanme, as having engaged in disor.irl v r,,iltic'ut here, and as having sustained and up. hjlf' a floe,,:,er who was occupying the floor in a disor(!er,ly,::anter. M,. President, if you were present at the time, I would wantl no0 other witness than yourself, for my ju~slificationl ill regard to the part which I took. But there weare present, probably, a few hundred witnesses, and less th;an that numbner, [ apprehend, would be sufficienit for may purpose. 'I he mnesber from Morgan was on the floor, anid and,r when he> las about ~o refer to a particular inoivid1, li tit,, ~,,,-,~bcr fr,) is Auglaize, (Mr. SAWYER.) arose aand ~~lieti him to order. Immediately there were many voices in thle Hall, saying: Leut him proceed; anid the member from Morgan said, he asked it as a personal privilege to makei the reference which he had indicated, antd appealed to th e courte sy of t he Conv entio n, to permit him to pr, ceed; an i, the matter being submitted by the t emporary occupant of the Chair, (Mr. LARsH,) the Conventi on a greed that he shoul d go on. The member had recommenced his relmarks, and was proceedl iw them, wihen the gentlemans from Hamilton, (Mr. REEMFLIN,) arose, under great excitement, and again called him to order. It was about at that point, that I got up, not having before interfered with tihe course of the debate which has b een goi ng on here for one or two days — got up and remiarked to the ge ntleman from Hamil ton, il n o spirit of unkindness, and in no offensive manner, that the myember from Morgan hadt the leave of tie Convent io n to proceed, and that he had cornienced his remarks and was proceed ing in them, when the gentlemaiin fro m Hamilt on got up. It was denied by the gentleman fro m Hamilton, that th e gentlemanh a f ro m Morgan laid o btaineed leave to proceed — lie declaring that the C membe r should not proceed. I then took my seat; and now the gent leman from Hamiltoua has said. that the genptlernan from Clark, and the gentleman from Muskirgian, and certain other gentlemen on this side of the Chamber, had hissed on the member fro m Morgan in what he regarded as disorder - ly conduct. The part which I took in this mat t er, was as I have stated, and, as I ae te a, understand it, it was parliamentary and orderly; and I have to say in referenice to the cha rge ol hissiong o, that 1 heard tno such thing in this bo dy, an d s o far as the cha rge re gards myself, I sav it is simply false and u titrue. Mr. LARSH. Inasmiiuch as I have been singled ou by the gentleman from Hamilton, I want to present my statement of the transaction. Personal explanation had been indulged prior to the time wvhen the gentleman flora Morgan addressed the Chair, and no call to order had been made. Occupying the Chair temporarily, in conformity with uisage, I had not conceived it mny duty to call to order. When the gentleman from iiiglalze called the gentleman from Morgan to order, I stated, from the Chair, that the gentleman from Morgan could not proceed without leave, unless he confined himself to the question pending; and I understood, at the time, that it was the unanimous consent of the Convention that he should proceed. At this point the gentleman from Hamilton rose, and, as I conceived, in a di~sorderly, inaniner, called the gentleman from Morgan to order, affirming that no leave had been given to the gentleman to proceed, and demanding a decision from the Chair. I then stated, from the Chair, that the gentleman had leave to proceed. I make these remarks, Mr. President, simply because some account of this matter may be read, perhaps, by sormie who did not witness the transaction, and not because I have arrived at that bad eminence which makes it necessary for me to notice any charge of disorderly proceeding, which may come fromu the source to which I have now responded. PERsoNAL EXPLANATIoN. Mr. SAWYER said the gentleman from Morgan [Mr. HlAWICINS,] had stepped entirely out of his wayd to make this attack upon Mr. Robinson. It would, robably, be more appropriate for some de legate fromn pHamiltona county, to make the remarks which he was about to submit; but he was upon the ground, and participated to some extent in the facts to which referencehad been made, and I am not willing (he continued,) to sit here in silence and see a gentleman, who stands prominent in society as an individual ainid a public man, traduced before this Convention, when our words are to go before the public in our OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5. reports, and in the public journals of the country, was ten fold worse. It was a stab in the dark, which and when the individual has no opportunity to de- indicates the coward. fend himself. It is from a sense of strict justice that Mr. HAWKINS. If the gentleman wishes to test I desire to speak, as well as because I have some my courage, he shall have the opportunity to do so. knowledge of the fact. Mr. SAWYER. I will do so whenever the gentle I repeat, that the gentleman from Morgan traveled man gives me occasion. If there is any aggression, out of his way, in order to get a blow at Mr. Robin- it shall be on his part. But I will tell that gentleson. The only excuse he could offer for opening this man, that, if he takes offence at what I have said, he attack, he has based upon the remarks of the gentle- can find me whenever he desires. I am his humrlble man from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] referring to his servant at any time, in any place, and upon any occavote against the repeal of a certain bank charter. sionI which lie may select. In the opening of his attack upon Mr. Robinson, Now I must take some notice of what transpired in that gentleman said that in more counties than one Washington city, as connected with these charges of the State of Ohio, and in the District of Columbia, against Mr. Robinson. I hlappen to know sonmething Mr. Robinson stood upon the public records of the of matters which transpired there at the time referred country as a public libeller and caluminiator. to. At this time the Oregon difficulties were agitated I happen, myself, to know some little about the il the Senate of the United States; and whilst this sub. matter to which the gentleman referred, and which ject was on hand, Mr. Robinson edited tihe Times newstranspired in his own county of Morgan. It occurred paper in Washington. And amongst other thlinigs, in at a time of high political excitement. In the year connection with the Oregon question, Mr. Robinson 1842, there was a difficulty between Mr. Robinson said in his paper, "look to the Senate." It had been and a Mr. Teesdale, who was the publisher of a Whiig stated to Mr. Robinson by different individuals, that paper, published in the same town where Mr. Robin- certain meetings had taken.place in one of the commitson was a Democratic editor, and Mr. Robinson gave tee rooms of the Senate, anid At the British Minister's Teesdale a licking for some slander uttered againist house, at which an agreement was made between the him. Afterward, another individual undertook to British Minister and certain Senlators anid officers of the edit the Whig paper of that place, and for various United States government, giving away our title to Ornewspaper publications by Mr. Robinson, a suitv was egoi between the parallels of 49 deg. and 54 deg. 40: instituted against him for libel. The suit, however, and this was published to the people by Mr. Robinson. was never consummated-it never came to the trial- Senators took umbrage at this publication, and Mr. the case being compromised by the parties. And if Robinson was arrested and brought before the bar olf it had been brought to trial, it would have been nothli- that body. ing more than what has happened to hundreds of our Noiv, there were twelve democratic Senators, in the citizens, especially about those times of political ex- United States Senate,-(a significant i)urirber,) who citement which occurred during the years of 1841 and were opposedto 54~. 40,opposed to the resolution of the '42. But few individuals of any prominence escaped Baltimiore Convention, which nominated Mr. Polkthis kind of censure in those times; and it was cer- and opposed to Mr. Polk anid his message, when he tainly a most uncalled for and unnecessary resort, to says, "our title to the whole of Oregon is clear and bring up this affair to the notice of this Convention. unquestionab'e," and there democratic Senators v-ent But the gentleman insinuated that there were other on, in spite of the democratic party and the president, grave and damning chargea which had been preferred and the people of this country, and gave away our against Robinson in an adjoining county; and when title to Oregon beyond 49 degrees. It was these noble he was called upon to name them, by myself and oth- Star-Chamber Senators, who caused Mr. Robinson to ers, did he do so? This was a stabbing in the dark, be arrested for uttering what I believe to be true. And in a place where the insinuation will go out upon the I venture to say that there was iot at that time a 54. wings of the wind, all over the country, int', all the 4() man in Congress, democrat or whig, (and there newspapers of the State. But what is the amrounIt of were a great many of the lattel,) but who believed this dark insinuation? I will give you a little ac- that Robinson told the truth, Anid the events of a count of it. But, by the way, this man Robinson, few days gave strong assurances that he did tell the who is here charged as a libeller, was, about the time truth. to which this reference has been made, elected by the But he was brought before that Star-Chamber Senfree democracy to the office of treasurer of his ate, and his case urderwentan tinvestigatiori. It could county. not be supposed that these honorable Senators would But with reference to this dark insinuation. Some admit their brothers to be guilty of the charge publishperson, from some dark corner of the State, had bro- ed against them; and, to exculpate themselves, they ken open the safe of Morgan county treasury, and expelled Mr. Robinson, by a unanimous vote, as the robbed it of some $2,000. Two individuals, upon gentleman from Morgan has asserted, because the yeas whom suspicion rested, were taken up and charged anid nays were never called upon the question. with this offence. A malicious individual, insinua Mr HAWKINS. I said it was carried by a unanited that certain persons had knowledge of the taking mous vote. of this money, and he implicated Dr. Barker, Mr. Mr. SAWYER continuing. I have said it was not Robinson, and a Mr. Russell. Now, with Dr. Barker, reasonable to suppose, in the investigation of this case, I have an intimate personal acquaintance; and I as- that these Senators, who were all comnplaisant gentlesert here, that there is not a man of more strictly hon- men, would be willing to say that their brothers were est anid upright, anid unexceptionable private charac- guilty of the charge. ter in the State of Ohio. Of Mr. Russell, I know But, Mr. President, I might appeal to the honorable nothing. incumbent of the chair of this Convention, arid the Mr. HAWKINS, (interrupting.) I madeneocharge Hon. Mr. Farart anid Dr. Fries of this city, who against Mr. Robinson, with reference to this matter; were both present ill Wasliiugton city at the trme, and and the gentleman is entirely mistaken, in the state- cognisant of these transactioxs; —I might ap ieal to ment that Dr. Barker was charged with any thing in these gentlemen, whether it was not tile urrarimious connection with this matter. I voice of all the 540. 40 nrtn in Washington that Robin Mr. SAWYER. I was aware that the gentleman son uttered nothing but the truth; and whethera few made no charge; but he made an insinuation, whiclh,lays afterwards diu not develops latcs which lrro't tri. 497 498 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNES:^AY, FEBRUARY 5. Athegins. BL-own of Ca'ml. Case of H ikin. Case of Licking Cia Saoei Go l c rc,ia, C- l k, C C - C irr%, Cutler, Ewa~i F,,,ia-' Gi le-tt, Grahiam, G'., Gre,,, oi'R~.Ge';ek akts [4an.,ilton, Hi:'lan, Hitchcock or Cuyahog,a, Hitcr,.k,),I of G *aiiza HI t.i, Hit,,lter J,.i,sii K.ioi,, ia,'sl, M'on, Mi..s,-. Mo:'ehteadi, Mo)rris, M-'Clm,,d,, Naq!,, Otisi Pecki, S:'o!t, of Hir!-i-o~i, S.nithi of Hi,'rIl a~id, Si,.i~ll fWre, Si a~br,.q'a:, lo-,, St iwe'l,S, Vam'e,f Cliatiiimai,m, Warreii i'iia Wodrval.~d Wo'hngo —3 N-,ks —M -'s. Bl,.;r, Cabill. Do)rsey. Farr.F he.Ge" H~imihrevi'e, I~in;,Jones Kirkoml.LawvrenLce, L,,r'w; 1', '~ccb, Leadtetteri L'dev. L~ ido,i, Murietcll M'Cor,uli i, Nii'': Or-ton P.,tt,e:'soa, Q T.i":!e~v. Rau,,**-,. R~.em.i,ii. R'(I('?e. R,'l. Sawv, er, S.o)TI at ~gaz,Ste s, S'is. Stick-ney, Sri,..' Stut. Swi,ft. Tayl,)-, T )~pm f Stark, To,wisittid, W'ilson, W,'od~biry anP.sii e:-45 So the motion to reconiside-r was agreed to. 1 h'Ie qitestion then being on the amendment of Mr. LAWRENCE, to wit: Add ato t h e end of section 2, t,ti. f ollowingd tati, "u nd to ter, upon repeal, or abolisme nd act of the General Assembly, any h igh t or law confe' f-ine, speciail privileges or immunities upon an portion of the people, which cannot reasonably ceientoi ede d by alcot Mr. ARTCHBOLD moved to abn end the a memedint, by strikinRg, out the followign words, "to wlter. revoke, repeal cbou of the t m frob H l n i w c t e Generas bly eano y grant or law confhrring sp ecial p rivileges or im snities upon atny portion of the people," andI inserting in lieu thereof, the following: ",-No pecial priv:!leges'or immuntnities shiall. ever be granted injurious- to the public and," Thle. que~st'oca being then upon agreeing to the amnend. meat of iMr. LA~WRENCFE: Mr. REEMVEIIN said: It la high time for, us all to understand each other The propositioni of the genitle.rman fromt M'vonroe-, (Mr. ARCHSBOl.,) is to stri ke out whiat I will Dow read: "1And to amenid, alter, revoke or repeal, by act of the General Assemnbly, ainy law or grant conferring special privileges or immaylnities." And to insert, in lieu thereof, the following,: "And no special privileges or immunities shall ever be, o.raiied, inj'urious to the public, and." It will, tlherefore, bi- perfectly in order, for me to dis cuss, not o.,ly what is proposed to be stricken out, but also what is proposed to be ins,,erted. I ask, then, what do the words mean that are propcu4ed to be- stricken out? Ttie~y ~ive to the people of Ohio, tlhrough thie General Assembly, the power tore~voke or repeal, what? "Any grant or law conferring special privileges or immuni-uti ties." And is this all? No, it is on-ly suchi privileges and immiunities, wh~ich "cannot be ree;sonal-bly enjoye~d by all." I unhes.itatingly assert that thle true construction whiict-i would be givord to tile pIopositioti of the genitlemanl frown Guernsey, (.Mr. LAWRENCF,,) which I have just read, and] wllich ha,-s bt-een discussed to day, would be, that thle mere- charter —the mnere corporate powers — the mere rig)-t of association could lnotbe repealed unider its provisions. I will read it again: ,-And amend, alter, revoke or repeal, by act of the Ge-neral Assem~bly, any lawv or grant conferring s.pecial privileges or itmmiunities, which cannot reasonably be einjoyel by all" tirrph-antly tut in him. For thet great contracting p~arties soo,peete d their contract, by whjich that large pourtioti of lie north western territory of the ULuited States was sold t,' Great Britaioo. But thal Senate, Mr. President, w1s in habit of ex pelliii individuals from the privilege of the floor of their clitaeir; aed I ciiuld wi it that I had the elo iquelice of the distiniuiashli(d Olbio Senator, the Hon. WiI. Allen. that I lii I,lit reli,arse here, what I save heard fion ois miiioutih, epictin in his place there, thies.e hl()t-l(v Senators with tlci(,0 hands in the grey ha, ir of old father Ritchie, dragging him outside of the bar for dai ti to utter at the tinie the American troops were in Mexico, the senitimlent that these Honoi. Seniaators, by their speeches against the war, were aid ii~, and a-busin-g- their cotintry's enemi-ies. It was for that ofleneethat fathe r R itciie nd Major Heiss,were excluded from the privilege of the floor of the Senate. Senators, who could eniact such a piece of tyranniy as that, do not surprise us much when they exclude fromin i the Reporter s gaIler y ani honest and fearless main like Mr. Roboetto I ). Mr. Presidlent, I have (lone. I rose m).erel y fo~r repelling the attack which has beren niadc here upon Mr. Robinsl,, in order that his vindicationl may- goo out in the same cliapter, witli the assertions which have been attemptted to he cast upotihii; and of bear ilg lily testimotiy to the fac titt Mr. Robinsoin as a man stanl(ds hitgh ii, the coutiyt where he formerly resided, that lie stani~s high noW,'in Hamilton countv, ;it-d worthiily fills the conspicuous and important positiion, which he occupies before the people of Ohio. Mr. W~,oRTH IING-T'ON. When the gentleman from M'Iorgaii, was perm,itted to proceed by the umiaiinimius consent of the cneto,and w,hen he was proceedilc under that l eave, the getitleoiati from Hamilton, rose anid called the genytlemiianl from Morgan, to order, aid stitedt to the chair, that no leave had been given lihat e had himnself objected. Having an opportu-p iiitv from niv position, to observe the gentleman at, the time, I here t akoei leave t,) say, that this st A s atenieait of the gertlerinn from Hamnilton, was wholly erroneous anil untrue, arid I therefore, then called t him to order. Mr. PEEi'vELIN, (in his seat,) was understood to declare the statement of the gontlemian froni Ross, to be siniply fitlse. MVr. -WORTI-INGTON. Tf the gentlemtani wishes to put it upon thaf footing, ie is welcotime. All I have to say t,o the cAnare of the aertleman from Hamilt on, that I h t any time counteimnced disorderly con- b diuct is, tha I an iliiin to submit that question, a.-, woell a the denial ie now makes to a jury of my iieighbors, anid his, on this the deiiiocratic side of the Hall. There were other witnesses of his conductr, besides — yself. berill PRESIDyENTj. The chair isc how con strained to &micte. that he wi not permiit another word upon this su~bject out of order; and he appeals to the conlvoeition to su:taiiili him. The question pendinig,t, being on tlie motion of Mr. G RAWKINS, to reconine r (he vote bv which the Con- i veintioni a,lop'ed Mr. LAWRENCE"S amendment. Mr. BENS T T ioved the previous question. The question then heing "shall the main question cilpiiee(scnntb raoal i o db l, (be n0w put; it wasa agiodtare bedt to. r;st ii;at eet hrfr,ta 'l'ie question theu being on the motion of MrIt.emr oprt ihstemr rnhs-h ftAWKINS, to reconsider the vote by which the eon-meecrtrnussicotiwiinieieilpii ventioti adopted ttie anienelmelnt of Mr. LAWRE~NCL, egsadimnte{ltcaal fhlgejydb Mr. CHAMIBERS demanded the yeas and navs' l, col o erpae ne h rvsoso r which were ordered, aud resulted yeas 5~3, nays p'')15, c' aedmlt as folIlows:EvnnwunrthodCosiuinevrme Y~:ts-M<,,srs A-chhnltt, Barbes, Ba' net of Mactzoisry, -ie fti oiesiniamme fsneo~rto Biaroett of Preble, Bales, Bentneti, B'iekeiisderfer, B'owoon or o( e;snco saeicroae sOdFlos Ia 0 n. e, ,py n Ir s 11 n II a I s I I t, 8 I I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNFSDAY, FEBRUARY 5. others as Masons; some belonging to other benevolent societies; aid others belonging to incorporated church- r es, and we have among us a goodly number of stockholders in railroads, turnpikes, and if I am not mistaken, even of Batnks. I am sure there is no member of this Convention, who is not a member of sotne incorporation. I, at least, am a member of several incorpo rations, not counting the county or township in which 1 live. Yea, I doubt whether there is a man, woman or child in Ohio, who are not, in spite of themselves, nmemrnbers of some kind of an incorporation. No right is, therefore, even now, more generally enjoyed than the right of association, and it, in and of itself, could, therefore, not be repealed; but utnder the new constitution, we are going to provide that all corporatiotis shalt be regulated by general laws only, and that corporate rights shall be open to all. They will surely then cease to be, in and oC themselves, any special privilege or immunity. It will be a right subject to be reasonably enjoyed by all, and the mere corporate powers-tthe mere franchise, will surely have passed clearly out of the reach of the section now under consideration, and proposed to be stricken out There was a time Mr. President, when- I hesitated in my own mind whether it vwas a miere error of judgment, or the result of a mere temporary esstrangement and derangement, that had mtiade the gentlemnen from Monroe and Licking, (Messrs. CASE and ARCTBOLD,) vote down the right of Repeal; but the proposition now nmade by Mbr. ARCBOLD, mloving to strike out what I have just read and to insert in lieu thereof a proposition that means nothing, and is intended to mean nothing, or if strictly construed means more than he himself would like ha s c onvinced me that it is not a mere temporary disagree- g mnent, but that there is a fixed deterination to op- pose the right of Repeal. It has now- become clear that when that gentleman pits ag,ainst us his "rur al | districts," when he talks about his "tributary coucuties," when he marshals uip in battle array his "thousand poor men," when lie pretends to defend the 'poor man's cause," against the "power of the wealthy," wlhen he comes f(irward a volunteer correspondent of the Daily Gazette of this city, in the cause of the right of asso;ciation, when hie pretends to be the articular defender of the rights of property, when he does all this, it is nothing but sheer hypocrisy, nothing but a mask to betray his friends and to strengtihen the Whigs. The gentleman, (Mr. ARCHiBOLDi,) threatens us with war'-wa r to the hilt. Sir, that threat has no terrors; war has coime, and war shall coime, till the ground upon which the gentleman stands shall be so narrowed under him that he will lie glad to have the war cease, which he has conjred lip. After hlie has voted for the reconsideration of the proposition now before us, after he has, even since yesterday morning, changed upon this very proposition, let me irform him that we have found himi out, and that I, at least shall treat him hliereafter, always, I trust, as a personal friend, but nevertlel'ess ais an open, an unrelentinig political enenly. None of his former prudence shall serve him in this instance. I will tear the mask from his face, and I ' iil make him defend special privileges and immuhitmc.e, b tithollt having the cloak of a'yright of assoct.alien" to screen }Ahil from the public view. Sit', his ~'ru~ra! dist~ricts, artd tributary coun1ties," with all the hlair splitting sophistries wse have heard fromn that gentlemlan'ts lips, shall all be stricken froml under hint. He shall be mnade. to starnd oult in bold relief, as a crafty-as an ever watchful friend of special privileges and immunities. I will show by the vote which he will give upon this occasion, that he is a friend of special corporate privileges, and not the re 33 al frie nd of the right of as soci ation. Whe n o n yesterday ihe dea lt blowo upon blow, and each blow harder, upon the Democratic party lie mia'ht if he hadi been willing, h av e see n the smiles pon the con Itenances of the Whigs. andl he mcighit have seen equally tie gloomy countenances of his Democratic friends. Silr, his course to Slay explains it all. All these sophe istrties a bout the'tlhousand poor men," whi ch he repeats this morning in an article published in the Daily Gazette, and his fervor for the "rilht of association" vill not serve him now, for I repeat that the mere right of association, the mi-ere corporate power-. are perfectly safe from e e et b the effect by the s ction now bef ore us. O,lya if such chartte rs contain special privileges, or special immunities, only the latter and not the charter will be subjecT to repeal. For, as I have said before, even now, the light of association is generally enjoyed, and this -will be entirely so un(ler the new Constitution. I shall, therefore, regard the gentleman as having returned to his first love-as having.made his peace with the Whig party, to whichA he originally belonged, and although 1 may have inclined to the notion that he labored under a little monomania on this question, I now acknowledge that I was mistaken, for I find that WThere is a method in his madness," &c, We are warned, unless we cease pushinig this ques. tion of repeal, and unless we come to some conmpromijise, by which an eternal peace miay be made between special privileges and the democratic party, we shall lose the "softs," and thereby be compelled to be in a.. minority in the State of Ohio; and we are told to be less stringent in our principles, and to cease deniouneing men who don't vote with us upon this question. Sir, out upon such nonsense. Who is not for us on this question, is against us. Between the democratic party and special privileges, there can be no peace. Even if the democratic party were content to conclude an armistice, and agree to lay down its arms, still, sir, these special privileges would necessarily war upon the democratic party; for they know that so long as there is one spark of democratic feeling and principle ill Ohio, just so long are their ill-gotten powers unsafe. You mr?n cry peace, peace, but there, will be nio peee. Between democracy and srecial privileges there mlumt be eternal war, till one or the other is conquered.Equal rights and equal burthens are a mere phantom), while special privileges or special imnrmiuniities exist, and either the democratic party must conquer or be con. quered in this struggle. Wfhy, then, seek to lull us to sleep by this syr,?.+ song of peace? There will be war as long as spt.baf privileges exist, for the democratic party is eternali, and though vanquished one day, it will rises the next, and. the day will come, when special privileges and special, immunities will be trailed in the dust; and when thebanner of equal rights and equal burthenis w~iR. &/oat triumphantly o'er the Capitol of Ohio. And in thie contest between democracy and aristocracy, we want no doubtful allies-noine who may betray us in the hour of triumph. We want no mere haligers on, we want true friends, fast friends, friends in the "hard" fight, and friends of equality, when we shall hiave conquered. I haste nio tears, therefore, to shed for those softs who lag be~hinid —who have ever betrayed us, whose errors in'34, inl'38, ill'41, in'43, and iln '50, are a load upon us, which I, for one, will carry no longer. Let them bury themselves in that great politica! grave-yard for renegades, the whig party. Thes gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE,) stated to-day that there w as no difference between us, except that we were determined to make the right of repeal l retro-activte —as to the;.future, he declared himself to I I I I 499 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5. I assert, that the legislative power thus unqualifiedly granted in the 1st section, is contingent and dependent upon, and therefore qualified by other sections of the same instrument, whenever any crisis occurs to which this other section may be applicable. The Constitution must, therefore, be construed as a whole, and any section, however unqualified the right of repeal may be therein iuserted, still its intent mrtist, just like the unqualified legislative power conferred by the first section, be construed to be dependent as a special legislative power, upon all other sections of the Constitution that refer to the General Assembly. However unqualified legislative power may be, in any one section or another, still it is unqualified by other sections of the Constitution, if any question arises where th ey may be applicable. 1 ask my friend from Franklin, [Mr. SWAN,] whether I am right in this? The gentleman neither denies nor affirms! Will some other legal gentlematt, then, either deny or approve the position I have just taken8 I call upon larval geintlenmen, for I find that the only persons lhere, to whose opinions is attached any weight, are those who may have secured to themselves the privilege of nmaking their living by pleading for other mren's rights or wro ng s, as the case may be. It is, there fore, natural for me, wsho, usnfortunately belortn to the laity of this ConveMntion,l t o ap ply t o the legal prof e ssion for an approval of the position I have taken. But I see t hat none wl ai answer, tand I will there for e pro ceed a s if Illy position wVerei iIIcontrovrertiule. It is undoubtedly correct, I say, then, that all the fear s of the gentlegnan from Franlklin, th at the propertv of corporations m a y be taken "twithout conpeinsation," exist surely w%iitlout cause, for we have already adopted section 36 of the Legislative Report, which protects, unqualifiedly. the rights of property, whether belonging to individuals or to corporations. That section applies equally to the section nowe under consideration as to any other general or special legislative power-the property of corporations is, therefore, as secure as the property of individuals, and in neither case can the State take property without first paying therefor. Section 36 was put into the new Constitution by our votes, and it is not right now to charge upon us, who are the steadfast and true friends of the rights of property, that we wish to obtain the property of corporations without compensation. Sir, that stetilon is clear. It is u,,equivocal. Tle term private property, includes the property of incorporatiolas-and to show that I arn right in this, I will merely say, that the termn private property, as used in the Constitution ol the United States, has, by every gentletinain, who has spoken upon this subject, and who opposed the right of repeal, been construed to include the property of incorporations. It, then, that term in the Constitution of the United States, includes the property of incorporations, I ask, why does it not do so equally strong in the Constitution of Ohio? Away, then, with all this flummery, about property. It is a special privilege, and a special immunity, that is in question, and not property. That special privilege, I have already stated, consists in violation of the fundamental principle of our government-. It was, and it is granted from nothing-and the difficulty between us, arises just here, that our opponents are determnined to so qualify the right of repeal, as to compel us to go into court with a construction as to franchises and special privileges, being property, which we are determ ined to avoid. Thuhus narrow has the grounld betwSeen us become. I am glad, Mr. Prpsidenlt. that the true question has come at last, and that it is no longer a question upon the right of association, and no longer a question as to the mere repeal of charters —that the only question now b e in f avo r of unqu alified repeal. H fe t old us that, when his lips hadehardly c losed iln depicting t o us the dang er of entrusting to theGeneral Assemblyany such power-aut a little while after, he told us, it was the exer ci se of judicial powe ra. h e depicted to us the ex pense of a jury of one hundred anad fifty men assembled in Columb us, a nd after he. had told us that thus to leav e th e General Assem b ly the r ight of repeal, was .the very g ist of tyranny, against which our fa thers re volted. Sir, if it is wrong to trust th e G eneral Assembly with the r ight of repeal as to the past, then all the ar guments of t he g entlem an are equally strong as to the future. Tihe p rincipl e s of r ep ea l will be just as expensive in the fu ture, a s in th e past-and it is just as mnuch a judic ial pow er in the one cea se, as in the other. and what may be just to cor pora tions that Dow ex is t, must be equally just or unjust to corporations hereafter to be created. To be sure, the gentleman tel ls us, th at corpora tions hereafter created, arere aware of the terms upon which they accept acts of incorporation; but that makes no difference in the principle sa, f or according to his opinion, their limits should be adjudicated upo n befoiae c our t s a e and juries, and not by the General Astembly. Then, sir, I ask the s brmae, privileges for corporatio n s hereafter to be created(, as for those if the past. It i s no excuse, to tr e at co(rporations hereafter to be created any different; and that smani who would hand over to that mercy, lan d that rapacity of Ge the l rtal Assemblies, which has been depicted to us, co rporations whose charters may be hereafter granted, shows at onc e that he is no t f ighting on principle, b ut m erely from spite and temporary spleen. The geutleman i from Licking pretends to be a great friend of corporations, and some of them lie has pictured to us as the very lambs in society. But I can tell him that I w oul d trust to his care no l ambs of mine, for he seems to have a kind of justice that would send oneg s e t of lambs to "saild sheplierds, a nd to sweet pastu res" while he surerendered others to the heathen. Mr. ARCH!BOLD. There must be some mistake about this position. Mr. REE,VIELIN. Aye, I know that you will try to back out of this position, since I have pointed out its absurdity. But it is a matter of notoriety, and I trust a matter of record, such is the position of the gerifleman from Licking and equally so that of atleastfour or five of the "twelve," and I tell them they will be -held to their position. M5 friend from Frainkliie, (Mr. SwaN,) has said tllat all he claims is that we should not commit "petit larceny" when we repeal special privileges. Mr. SW AN. I don't think that I used that word. Mr. REEMELIN. Well then that we should not .commit " robbery." Mr. SWAN. I did not. Mr. REEMELIN. Well at least that we should not take private property "without compensation." Mr. SWAN assented. Mr. REEMELIN. Now I ask his particular attention to the points I shall make with reference to this particular position of his, for we are getting to exceedingly narrow ground, and it becomes us all to beware how we stand. I say then that all parts of the constitution must be construed together —that no one section will be or (tan be construed by itself; and to show what I mean, let me read the first section of the new conlstitution.'The legislative power shall be vested in a General Assembly composed of a Senate and Hfouse of Representatives." H~ere is an unlqualified legislative power~mr who has esver contended that legislative power can,~e exercised regardless of other provisions of the Const/-] tation bearing directly upon the subject of legislation, 500 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5. I possible relations that may arise, our propositions are far more safe, far more just, than the propositions that have been submitted from the other side. I desire now to make another point, to which I call the special attention of the gentleman from Franklin, ' (Mr. SWAN.) I ask him as a legal man whose opinion f is certainly entitled to great weight, whether almost all , our rights. as men, as citizens, as husbands and fathe, ers, or as holders of property, are not to some extent, at the mtnercy of this convention, and the people who shall act hereafter upon our labors. I ask him whetht er this convention and the people after it, may not change the principle of inheritance that now prevails , in the state of Ohio, as to persons now or hereafter in being, and that my children now born might be stript of the right of inheritance which they have a right to expect under our laws. I ask him whether the dower of my wife, to property which I now hold, might not be taken away by the action of this convention and the people afterward-, and whether all my rights as a property-holder-(the rights of property being legal and not natural) —could not be, nay, may not be af fected by the action of this convention. I ask him to say farthier-lie with myself having voted to vest un qualified legislative power in the General Assembly whether all these rights and all these interests are not at stake; and whether they are not all entrusted to the discretion af the General Assembly? There is no doubt of that. But to make myself still better under stood, I ask him if such a law as now exists ill the state of Missouri, and such as prevails in my native coun try, which gives to the wife one half of the property acquired during marriage, might not, yea, whether it is not very likely that it will pass the General Assembly? And if the gentleman from Franklin still fails to un derstand me, I will put a case still nearer home to him. I understand be has in his drawer a proposition, which lle will offer as soon as he can get an opportunity, to wit: That the right now enjoyed by property holders, to lease their property for 99 years, and then renew ible forever, shall be restricted to 2t years, and that the de vice of property shall in no case be permitted to ex tend further than to persons in being, and the immedi ate descendants of persons in being. Now, sir, I am a property holder, to a small extent, in the city of Ciii cinnati. When I purchased that t)roperty, tihe right to lease it to an unilimited extent existed, and rny right to devise it extended one generation further than what is now proposed by the gentleman from Franklin. These rights by me now enjoyed, and enijoyed by every pro perty holder in Ohio-rights which give to real estate a peculiar value in the eyes of men, and which have constituted in many cases the principal inducements for purchase, are at once attacked by this proposition. Nonne de ny the right of t his Co nvention, or of the Gen eral Asseml)ly, to pass a l a w of t hat kind, and It, for one, not only admit the right, but will join my friend in his endeavor to secure its adoption. But I am not now talkingof what should be done, but of what might be done; the point that I desire to make being simply this: that this Convention, and the government exist ing under the Constitution we shall frame, hold at dis cretion many of our rights of property, the rights of our wives and children, and not even excluding somes of our personal righsts, and that the action of govern mnent meay affect existing relations of society —rights whlich, to some extent, have already accrued, and I ask, since all these rights and all these interests are by' con~sent left to the General Assembly, whether we may notj trust a little to thle discretion of that body, to the same extent —-no more and no!ess~the interests and rights of those bastardchildren of legislation~whoses special privileges and immunities, and whose exclusive character only we attack. Or to use a figure of speeh, is, whether corporate powers ill the Slate of Ohio, shall possess within themiselves,. an exclusive and special character. I am glad that we have got upon the threshsiold, wher e democracy ends, and aristocracy commeneces I am glad that a cl sub terfuge; all pretence; all special pleadillig,las been kinocked from uInder thell'twelve," a nd that their denuntitatons of us, as the en emies of the maere right to associ ate and enjo y c orporate powers, w i t no long er answer their purposes. Sir, I for one desire to sav, once for all, that I deem the right of as. ;sociai atio i f or a v tega r pu rpo ses, an inal ienabl e rightone which th e government of Ohio should not only not restrict; but on the contrary, for which it is bound to furnish that mer e ofrale work, hich stall enable men, Aund er t he t,eculiar cpnstruction of our laws, to carry out the objets for which the y may apply to associate. The sp ecial privileges; the exclusiveness only, I oppose. 1 say to the "twelve," they can no lo nger stand here, as the friendspar excellenc e, of that val uable right, which enables rmei to associat e and ortganizet to carry out the designs and objects which, without such organizatoio and association, they could not accomplish. /Messrs, SWAN an.d C.4. sE, have both depicted to us, tlhe reign that would ensue, in case of mere unqualified repeat. If their position be true., and if we democrats ever had proposed that the repeal of power should thus be exerc.sed; or, if it was even a Supposable case, that the General Assermbly, would be so blind and foolish as merely to exercise th e righ t o f repeal, and leave the credits and deb ts o f'tie company uwprovided for, then their positiont might be a correct one. But I have already shown that the right of repeal, ulnqualified as it may stand -X] any section, is qualified directly and unavoidably by these, other sections of the constitution that I have niaamed. But evenI aside from that ~Ir. HcU mmvIr/LUE'S amendment, for which we voted and against which you voted, provided directly and in terms for the payment and the collection of the debts, 3nd the disposition of the property. Ache term "pro perty" at once brought it under the provision of seetioIn 36 of the Legislative Report. And it is therefore an entire m-isnmrner to tell us that to insert here the right of repeal gives to the General Assembly the right to take property without compensation. It is true that in c,une cases out of ten no property might be takeLn by the General Assembly; but whatever may be t,tie position of affairs at the tinme of repeal, the General Assembly would have been compelled, under our proposition, to make just and equitable provisions in reference to tihe assets of that corporation. And for fear that we shall still be misuniderstoofi, I for one now openly and publicly declare it, that I have voted for each and e-yery proposition that was at all likely to secure the rights of private property, by whomsoever held. But if that section is not yet strong enough to S,ecure the rights of property, in individuals or corpor~:o;s, [ stall wiliing, to vote for any reasonable proposit,~ thtat wilt strengthetn it and miiake it stidl more stringentt. Mr. SWAN. I will try you when we come to the proper place. Mr. REEIgELIN. Trv us, if you please —but take care that you don't findd yourselves the tried parties. All private property, whether taken for public lose or destroyed for public use, I for one contend the Slate should either pay itself or make provision for paying it by the parties to whom the benefit accrues. Take it thet as you will, either onl Mr. HU.;~HREWILLE'S amend- ment or on the proposition now under consideration, I say that the rights of association on the one side, and the interests of corporations with them, as well as the: interest of the rights of the people on the other side- f caloudig again the ~ights of property-including all I r e i t i c 501 502 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE[DN[s I)A^-, FEBRUARY 5. if it is proper and right to trust to the General Assem. Thc time has been, at the commeniceme int of this di.s - bly to apply the pruning knife to all the legitimate cussion, when, I ci,nfess, I did not feel exactly right parts, and especially to the roots of the tree, and the about them. But inow they have not the least influ other most useful pe,rtions of it, whether we may not ence upon me —not the least. They fall harmless i, trust to that General Assembly the power of applying my feet. the same pruning hook to lop off those wild off-shoots But now let me approach the question. And if any that are the result of negligent and improper legisla- gentleman is desirous that [ should define iy ~oition, tion. I will do so, it) such a manuer thdt it shall be hunpossi The people have a right to alter and abolish their ble to inisutderstaud ule. I have mnarked out my Constitutioni,-the basis of all law. So says the sec- course, from which I (lo not omean to deviate-not a tion we propose to amend, and surely, then, we can hair's breadtfi. equally alter and abolish laws passed in pursuniaceT-,, thereof. If we can undermiine the foundations of the The qiestio n tote isisd,,-n ivni ali —t,-i,ii t_ alielid-tient to ttie amrii.udii-ent, wh~ichlis s rxsio I o edifice, why can we not remove the mere ornamentas part, or the cob-webs which collect there? t' e effect, ti- t t,i, Asens ly repeal ah charters. That is the substance of it, if it imeans an.y I must not forgot to notice the absurdity of another thing. But it is said by some, that it means nothing of the positions which the gentleinaii from Licking g -being in the bill of rights, wlhere we Ioog only fer a occupies. He has sung hlosannas to-day for the right declaration of general principles. That nsay be so; of trial by jury, an( has claimed that in all cases of re aid if it should be so, tlheii I am against it. But it peal, a jury of the vicinage shall decide upon the rights may also mean wh:.qt thli gentleinai fIroimi flam.ilton, of property held by a corporation. In the same breath, (Mr. RFF.:IELIP4,) and others affirm. If they are cutwhen lie talks of a jury of the vicinage, and when he r~ct, then I am still aeaiust it; for they asfrin and ctaima talked on the supposed H.amilton bridge case, he de- that the Legislature may repeal any charter, now " picted to us the people of Rossville and of Hamiltoni, as existncei a mob that would go about saving, "the owners of thIis bridge have become about r eb enough-it is time lo that active rpa, and proD'qpect~,te repeal, anid I want ~ble, their power to amass a foitu,~i should be stopped." lie io depicted to us that peopie ) ing lip to the General As- I attentiony of gwfith rence of this leg inal p to a sembly, cryinig, Repeal' Re —peal![ Repeal!!! aridIn have to sav with reference Io this nf L-em~iv cring Reeal R,p,,all! Rpea!!!a~dtlx~iifirm, thatt tlqere is really 11o dj,stitictionl between thes described the General Assembly, gettilig as crazy as the firm,nth ther e s rey distiuclio people themselves-grauting the act of repeal at ouce, o pT ~u3, t - a i erd to law, but nione as a~lcbeto coiistitutiolls. If yout at the mere outcry of such a mob. And then i t e t ells If1y' us that he would send the right of property of that authorize the Legislature to repeal: charters, and say bridge company, to a jury of twelve men, from ilie rioth-)g about the foture or the past theaithorityope rates eas well up~oni th,trs pa-sed twenty y,ear7s aigo, as very vietiagc e wh ich cries Repeal! Repeal!! I will iot upon those which riay tie passed in the future. Then enlarge upoii the absurdity of this proposition, and I of have only now adverted to it, for the purpose of call- this sub w iera!,,, htvecnipreseIltd upon ing the attention of the convention to the fact, that Ject,3wu activel at the euft these gentlemei, in their ultra zeal for the rights of in- consideration ta ii a th ire ateihe time o ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~coroain,wlovrhothmakstb hmees onsiderationi, that is all t]}at the General Assembly are. corporations,, will overst}oot the mark set bv I hemselves, bu~ oko bu t and that they are not only unsafe counsellors for the people, but of all men ther most unfit protectors of cor- I know, that, amongst lawyers, it is often askef, porations. does that law operate retrospectively? because, if a-: law is retro-operative, it n-iy contravene a clause of tl~h I have felt r:.yslf at liberty to ma'ie these remarksof Constitut:ion of the State, ci of tie Colistitutioi othem, although I have once or twice before spoken on the United Statesi-.:~.,d there existig e:c.. the question of repeal; but I hold the men who have tracts or rights.'The Legatire cf the Stale of Ohio moved the recoiisiderarion —they are responsible for all possesses all the powers of':iiv othier deliberative I.o(il~ toss of tiue.'T'ity were right when they voted the on earit, except as tlii-y are,'t) se exieut, restrai ied amutendment in. Tiiey are now determined to be wrong by the State Cotstltutieii, or tie Constitution aof tl'e by moving and carryi~g nreconsideration. Upon their United States. hea,d be the consequences. I have no s,crusinuing habc es in using I understand the Constituation of the State to be en. thle, timie of the people iii defendiug their Aht. hose. tirelv different in its character, from what it seemns to w.~ ) at..A!ac heniiu~t bear- whatever obloquy may attl~i ach 10 i-fobear whaever oblosuy may ate be i-garded by soiue members of this botly-entirely differeut in its effects and operations. In its intents Mr. KENNON I have been alluded to frerluently and obiects, a State Constitution is nothing but the to-day, as included in this number "twelve-" and'I frame- work of gove-nameat. As far as the Jodliialand believe this ch~iefge is correct. I certainly aml in tlat Executiive Deisartmnents are concerned, -heir powers conpatny, and 1 expect to remain there BLit I hs are mostly delegated. But, in regard to the Legislative rather thie gentleian from Hamilton, (Mr. RE,;mLI i,) -Department, I deny that this is the case. It is not the io~ld not. find so much fault. It seems thlat I can business of this body-this Couvention of the people h,r,iy smile without attracting his not.c. And the -to delegate power to the Legislature. What then, geh:tle,i,au mav ns wc[{l iisis; or he cannot get us all are our functions in this respect? If you were sitting ti,to the whig'ranks. For one, I co net tufteoil to go as a member of the Legislature, your inquiry would thleri. Whatever brigh~t prospects niay be tbefore the lie, not, whether the Constitution has delegated to the i-e;itleman from Hamiltoii I am noteniviius. Neither General Assembly, this power or that; but has the can I emulate the proud satisfactioni he seems~ to cijoy Constitution takenit away? Buiwben w oet h of rieing, always reght. I never expect to attain to that Coiigress of the United States, tihe inquiry in the mind hi~,h degree of perfection. Iof the member becomes the very reverse of this. It none of the~~~~~seatcsmceuomy this: has the. Constitution delegated this power to me? Mr.' Presideut, noeo hs lak aeuo yiBecause the Constitution of the United States isa Con' self and the ot'her eleven with me upon this question, stitution of delegafed powers, and declares that, "powhave the least influence upon my feelings at this period. iers iiot delegated to the United States by the Coatstitu OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FErRUARY 5. chiarter heretofore granted. I claim that to be the set tled law of the land. What says the Constitution of the United States, wh vliich we have sworn to support! I beg pirdon for at tenipting a short explsnation here. Oue clause of that Constitution says that the judicial power of tlie United States shall be vested in oie Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as Congress may from time to time ordain and establish; and then it proceeds to define the powers of that court, and prescribes that they shall ex ercise judicial powers in all matters, and upon all ques tions of law and equity arising under that Constitu tion. This is the judicial power conferred upon the Supreme Court of the United States. But the framers tof this instrument proceed a step further. It beIng supposed that the legislation of the sevi,ral States might r possibly conflict with existing contracts, they go on to provide, that they shall pass no laws impairing the ob ligationis of contracts. g eiThey go on to provide, also, that the Constitution of the United States, and the laws of the United States, made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made under the authority of the United States, "shall be the su prerne law of the land; and that the judges in every State slhall be bound thereby, anything in the Consti tutiont or laws of any State to the contrary notwith standing." Any law of an individual State, not in pursuance of the Constitution of the United States, is v~o id. From all this, it is plain, that the Constitution of tbih Unite?d States, is the supremie law of the land. But the framers of that inistru meiut, foreseeing that a law, such as that you here wish to put into this con. stitution, miglit be adopted, interfierinig with thle provisions of the Constitution of the United States, hiave provided a tribunal to adjudicate upon all such laws; and they have required that every judicial officer, in every State of the Union, shall take aii oath to support the Constitution of thle United States. The members of our judiciary, then-i, are not only to be bound by the constitution acd iaws of the State of Ohio, but by a soleitin oath, they are each, and all of l 0 o ether, to be required to supi)c::t the Coustitution of the United States, and the laws of the United States, made in pursuance thereof. I have said, that State charters of incorporations — even bank charters —othier spe~cies of charters —have been decided by the only tribunal, which has autiority to decide such a question to be contracts, within the m~eantinig of the Constitution of the United States. Every repeal of a charter by the Legislature of any State of this Union, an~d the question taken to the Supreme Court of the United States, has been held by that court to be a violation of that clause of the Constitution of the United States, which says, that no State shiall pass any law, which sh-all -'impair the obligation of,, contracts. I have be e n den ounced for this opinion of what these decisions are, and my adherence to t hese decisions; b ut I'owish gentlemen distinctly to understand, that I eherisl no unkind fee-ling, on acc ount of thei r denuncia. tions-because I can see my way clear. I know that I am right. dion, nor prohibited by it to the Sta-tes,;ire reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Notwithstanding th e las t clause, of the Constitutio, under which we have lived for the l i s t f if ty years decie lOO~ti.ha to yares ainet Ie, thatr prin stob te Constsi ioti of.tte '-0iigh pawer he reby delegated, we declare thate a, ] poo t or hlrs, not hereby delef tated, remain with the U edSae, d d',eny th,at there is a single power delegated to thie Legtslature iiithe whole, Conistitution, excep)t those3 with respect to corporations. It is p declared p p an the Legis,ative Ciower of the Stpte shah (l u n i l vested in th e General Arssemrnbly rof the State. But thi 1 r clause of the CoCstiuiutiai of Oiiio, has never be-en regarded by tqte people as!i the leAop degre to iedtie ciiine, icanc s p ecific' pora r. It one lt declares in whable the Legislativec :i7owei-,shall e-xis-t. Sir, I am not aifraid of this propi isitiou. I whtths che(t (o pito. er s ha e be en gr anted to the Legisiature by zhe cdf r rstitution, eithe r to thrrow l ont t ey, to ,tmake ae u'igtawn, eoti~t bt th asses s to asess tax e s, no r ip.tl f eemlly ain rtinot hercours,tios-bece y y cr dooe. The "-tatioeniy toig bido aylaw,. of th and \Vehrths eisoswrea is beg patrdon of tht e itiSante imossetogses -,ll pmadwe,Is not tay.e l otv,, arn by t i od orfer, a Ther m U. States, CeIld tfot I.ani:e;deavorito ta a arguments f o nm o of govern.~eiae, gntla, i. Ix it enae ao the ata ul y I e,;reathtI anccrdanc wIiito the prins aiples of oui e e the Lt gislaturel of the State, ites a rislit t, edy the uo yostt ul cilot, r ay do anything ;)ot tlonist e -, gif he~vet;,:mIlent itself, or the, Got~~~~~~sti. ~~~~~~tbto;r,i snt h,mitti o t adele:/aee istvie. power, but~ it ei-ca rnseribes anid limyit,s ~':hatl,~wer Tiffslast c{mein outr oldI Const.itutioni ha~-s lieoa deme a de,ad let,. r. It;va.- t~aken fromi a Cemiuinof delegated pea, er t tt is to say,, the Cnsttinaf,the Unliited States. SI. 1[hv aid thus m hof' tre, ntature of ouir Coin~:t i,tt;i<, - i iiowing whIa,it I ami d oi t. g, a b o i a s w el,I ~.~u,if inot a little, better, than 1,1Zthoe g tlemeu who are Ins, after all, is to reach the present B,ink corpcorations; and for thtis object, I do sayv, that a rmore sktiillful sectioni thal this 33d section of the legislative report, was never drawn up by any deliberative body in the St.ate eif Ohtio. No corporate franchise, no charter, shall ever be deemed a contract. This reaches to all future time, and is intended to cover every case that can come before the courts. Arid, under these circuristaoets, they imust not be deemed contracts. If they are to be dee,nedc contracts anywhere else, they.ire not to be deemied so, by the judicial tribunal of the country. But the report goes a step forther, and dealars, that these charters and privileges shall not be deemied irrepealable. Irrepealable by whlom? Undoubtedly this piart of the section, is addressed to the legislative body of the country. Now, this is a little stronger thy:& the provision immediately befoy ie e onvention; and I do net eknow, but it will b e adopted. Bprat, oif it should be adop, ted, I want to t ell some gentlemen here, where o hey will stana. Mr. SAWYER (is his seat.) Judge Vanrce wilt3 vote for that section. Mr. KENNON. Well, iof e wl, I wil l nv iot. gut I w ill tell gent lemen wh e re, hey will staind. It' I att) right, they will stamd as, the prmcjectors of a schemeyn which w ill pla ce th e c(untrv his) a predicarmen lt semething like the following: You say to the judg,-s, wtho are hereafter to be deeted to preside in the judicial triburaas of Ohio, yotl shall never deem anty charter to b a contpact. Now, your newly elected judge stands up to be sworn), antd his oath is to support the Coiistitation o.f lthe United; States, and the Conjstitution of the State of Ohio. Buit, in the Constitution of the State of Ohlco, there is this. express clause, that a charter shall never be deemed a contract; a clause in direct con,,ict with a proTision oF the Constitution of the United States, as construed by the judicial decision of the Snurermie Court of the VUnited States. And here you have the sarnefedge swort: to observe and support both-required to swear to the, support of two principles, exactly opposed to each other, If I am right in this, gentlemen will perceivo- that they need not trouble thernselves witL the apprehension that a certain class of men will ever sit up(>1 tbtbench of Ohio. You might get melt to be judges, who do not understand the law. The gertlemnan frorm Hamilton, might serve; (for it is the iatention which makes the perjury;) but you would not get aen,at understaniding himself well,^ and understand~ng the }awe, to, get up,i and swear to support two eo~}stitntso~-s —th, one directly in the face, and in the teeth opposed to the, other. I do nlot think you would be able -to get esel} an honest whig to gol upon1 the ~nclh, utlder such circumstances. In~deed, I am sure you wvould loot, if tiley were all as honest as they pretend; aned your proVSisitm might be a good one for that reason, for aught ~ know. [A laugh.] But, as for the W higs generalty-although, the gentlemran will place mce angon~ the — Himust say, that I cannot hare mzuch respect ffor tbekr poli Act sob Pleas, to the Supreme Court; and the Supreme Court, the tribunal oflast resort, under theconistitution, should reverse the decision of the Commnon Pleas, and send back their judgmen t to be carried out by the court below, they do not se nd dow n their decision to be decs ided upon, an d p robably reversed again, by the court below; for, if tha t w ere the case, there would be no end to litigation. Th e w isd om of the land, then, has constituted a trib unal, whose decision shall be final, and has fixed the Supremne Court of the U ni ted States, as the u ltimate expounder of the co nsti tution anId laws of the United States. Well, the Suprem e court have decided the question now before this body; and there is no propriety in taking up time to defend it, or to cavil against it. Let any man show a decision to the contrary. I address myself now to lawyers, who know, that so long as these dec is ions rem ai n, they are as b ind ing as the law itself, and tha t every inferior tribun al is bound to decide accordingly. The gentleman from Hamilton declared to-day, that there was no suc h decis ion. But I admir oe more the c ourse of the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) who admit s the existence of the decision, because ihe ha s seen i t a nd read it, and there is not a smaln in this hall, wh o is any thing of a lawyer, but knows very well that the se decisions have been uniform. Now I wi ll tell you, (Mr. REEiMmLIn,) wh at itis you ar e asking me to do, and what it is that you would turn me ov er to the w higs for, if I do i t not. I am a better lawyer than you are; and it is because I entertain a differen t op in ion of Idw from yourself, that you would turn m e over to the whigs. But, sir, I intend t o turn you out of the democratic party- not because of your legal opinions, bu t b ecaus e I do not believe vou a re a good democrat. (Laughter.) I will show you, t hat y ou have be teen mistaken in supposing that I do not unde rstand democrcAv. The gentleman says truly, that in construing this clause of the constitution now under consideration, we ought to consider it in its connections and relations with other parts of the constitution, and construe all together. I say he is right there. But I suppose somebody must have told him that. (Laughter.) The gentleman'refers to the 33d and 36th sections of the report of the committee on the Legislative depart, ment, and says, if they vwere carried out, he would ask no more upon' this subject, in behalf of corporations. Let us look at these sections. The 33d section of this report is as follows: 'The General Assembly shall have no power to pass retroactive lawvs, or laws impairing the~obligation of contracts. provided, however, that acts of incorporation or corporate franchises, privileges or immunities, whether granted by any general or special law, shallnever.be deemed contracts, or irrepealable. Mr. REEMELIN (in his seat.) I did not refer to that section. I referred to the 36th section. Mr. KENNON. Well, I take them both together. The gentleman says, we are to adopt this, though I do not understand that it is in his substitute. But what does this section mean? Why, that "no act of incorporationi, or corporate franchise, privilege, or immunity, whether granted by general or special law, shall ever be deemed a contract, or irrepealable." Adopt that section, if you please; but I now tell you, sir, and every man in this convention, that I never will vote for it. If that makes me a whig, then I am a whig, in the estimation of the gentlemana from Hamilton. But I never will allow hinm to judge for m~e. This section is drawn with great skill. It has undoubtedly passed through the hands of a master. Let mle explain it. 504 OH-IO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5. gacity, as exemplified in their courses iu this conven- are conferred, just whenever it may be the pleasure of tion-for I have seen them, as a party, do some very the Legislature to do so. And I will tell you, sir, upon silly things here. [Merriinenlt.] what terms they may repeal those charters; and the But, again: in the event of the adoption of yourpro- gentleman from Hamilton cannot get out of the diflivision, every member of the Legislature elected here- culty which I shall present, to save his life. It is deafter, if lie should happen to believe, that the Supreme clared here, that the Legislature lhas the right to repeal Court is right upon this subject, would be placed in all charters,-whether heretofore created, or hereafter the same situation with the judges, in regard to his to be created-provided they contain special privileges oath. Both being r,'quired by the Conlstitution of the or imm)nunities, which cannot be reasoniably enjoyed by United States, to support that instrument, and by our all. But they take away only the franchise, and beown, to support this constitution. cause that is not property, as the gentlemnan from Now, let me turn to thle 36thi section of the report of Trumbull asserts, the company gets no compensation; the legislative committee. It is follows: and if it were property, they could get no compeusa "Sec. 26. Private property shall ever be hell inviolate, tioli, because it is not token for public UsE. All I have and no private property, whether held by individuals or cor- to say further upon this assumption, is, that I would porations, shallever be taken for public use, unless the pub- not like to have a judge to decide i my case any very tic good imperatively demands it, but in all cases full and adequate compensaticn in money shall first be moade to the important law questol who oud vow himself of owner or owners, to be as esserl by a jury. anid subject to no I the opinion, that a franchise is not property. And deduction for any benefits accruing to any property of tihe whether the gentleman is pleased or not pleased, I will owner or owners." not vote lihere for a proposition, in violation of the Con This is what gentlemeii are anxiousto carry out, and stitution of the United States; and, in this I will be we are invited to vote for the provision now under con- guided by the decisions of the Supreme Court of the sideretlon, upon the averment of the gentleman from United States, from which I will not deviate a hair's Hamilton, that ample provision is mrade for the security breadth of corporations in this section. This i;, also, a well The gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] allidrawn section, but it does not really provide the secti ded to me, in his remarks on yesterday, but did not rity which the gentleman has affirmed. The corn. find so much fault with moe as others, because, as he mittee say, "Private prop)ertyshall ever be held inviolate, said, I came square up to the work-I voted the whig and no private property-whlether held by individuals doctrine, out and out. Now, I consider that the unii or corporations-shall ever be taken for public use." kindest cut of all. But I was placed under great Sir, you might see a good deal il that word use;" and I obligations to the gentleman from Knox, [Mr. MITCHhlave no doubt, that the gentlemen of the committee, ELL,] for the terms in which he wvas pleased to refer to who put this word into the section, understood its me and my position uponi this question; although in meaning, and understood it well. regard to my intellectual capacity, his notice was Mr. SAWYER (in his seat.) They certainly did. rather over-drawn. Mr. KENNON. They did, I have no doubt. They |3But now, what are the great evils in corporations have dropped the word "welfare," in the corresponding against which gentlemenl are creating this opposition? section of the old constitution, and put into its place INo man need tell me that this opposition is directed the word "use " Now, I deny, that in repealing the against charters for public improvement and manncharter of a corporation, we take the property for pub- factoring purposes. I tell you, sir, it is the monopoly iic "use," but you may take away a fratnchise for the of the banits against which this war is waged It is public "welfare," when it could not be said to be taken! the right to issue paper money-to substitute paper for the public u se. currency for silver, and the fact that banks are not But now we are talking about a franchise, (which I taxed as other property. It is against these things know is property,) allow nme to suppose a case,-be- that gentlem)en are anxious to operate, although they cause this question, as I think, (an be better under- (lo not say so. I find no fault whatever with them, stood by faniliar illustrations. Here is a rail road, run- for some of these oPinions. tiug from this city to Columbus. The charter of that Some of these gentlemien think they place themrail road company beinlg now in existence, yon repeal selves upon very safe ground, so far as this matter is it either under the authority of the 33d sec of the Leg- concerned, by assuming that all banks are uneonstiislative report, or the provision of the gentleman froin tutionmal. But the object is to repeal bank charters Guernsey, (Mr. LAwnRENCE.) But why do you repeal and I do not know butt the time will come, when all that charter.? The Legislature may act il the case, iour banks will be struck out of existence for their bad upon their conviction that the public good requires it; conduct. I hlave seen whigs act very unwisely upon and they might be correct in this, and still it could not this subject; and one of the most niwise things which he made to appear before a judicial tribunal, that the they have done, has been their attempt to shoulder charter was taken for public use, because the State the responsibility of taxing banks less than other does not use the road. Although millions may have property, and justifying the act as morally right. been expended upon the road, upon the faith that the But now, let s suppse for t moment that you charter was to run for twenty years, still, because the I want to get clear of banks entirely, present and fuLegislature has only taken away the f ranchise, te tre. Ad suppose that a committee should report State is not compelled to remunerate the company, for to this body a proposition, to the effect that ino bank the loss of their investments of moaey. 1 have no shall hereafter be created, and that all the existing doubt, Mr. lrosident, that gentlemen understood this banks shall be wound up, and that no bank paper and in such case the whole capital would be lost, un- whether issued in or out of the State, should ever cirless mercy should be shown to the corporators. It ~ulate, under severe penalties, and that such a propo would be pure mercy, for they would have no legal sition should be adopted. But suppose 1, as a meomcharter. And this, I am almost afraid to say, was ex- ber here, entertaining some doubt whether the people aetly what was lutended by dropping the word "wel- would adopt the Constitution, with such a provision fare," in our old Constitution, and substituting the in it, and thinking, as I do, that the Constitutioncon word "use" in its st~ead. tains some very good things, and suppose I propose Now, Mr. President, I affirni, that the ameudmen to submit this report for the adoption of the people, under consideration, asserts tile power to repeal the as a separate clause-I know precisely what gentle harters of ctompeiries, wherein any special privileges men would sayin reply to my proposition. The gen 505 506 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TiURsDAY, FIEBRUARy 6. tleniaii from Hamilton, [L.r. HEEMI-LIN,] would rise in Mr. KENNON. No sir, that could not be done be his place, and say that all banks were unconstitu- cause that power belongs to the Uniited States. Coin tional-in contravention of a provision of the Con- ing money is the exercise of a sovereign power; and is stitution of the United States, and be would not sub- not only expressly delegated to the United States, but mit to the people a proposition to violate the supreme taken from the States, and whoever attempts to exercise law of the land. The gentleman from Hamilton, and it, whether State or corporation, exercises a sever those acting with him, would put this clause into the eign power belongiig to the Utited States alone. Not body of the Constitution, and say, here, now, voters so with bills of credit, as I will hereafter show to this of Ohio, say whether you will accept this Constitu- Convention. tion or not, with this provision in it? But, when I But what is a bill of credit? This was as well an propose to submit the same clause separately, in iden- derstood by the framers of the Constitution of the tieally the saewod, t e olo osn,ibe ticaewords they would iiot consent be- United States, as a bill of exchange is by the lawyers cause it would be incoisistent to give an opportunity here. But what is the mealning of a bill of credit, as for the people to coutinue the existenee of these un- used in the Constitution of the United States and in coistit itional corporations. But, stippose weweieto the Articles of Confederation. Why, every one of the make no other amendment than this to the old Con origi States of ihis Union-I believe the whole thir stitution, would you not submit it to the people ill teen-had issued an irumeiise anouit of these l)ills, for that case? Buti still, you -wotild not submit identi- the redemption of which they pledged the faith of sovcally the same proposition by itself! Now, I may be ereigntv, aid the general govemmeut also, had issued a little muddy- headed, bit, of all the argumuents ever more thae two honored nullious of do'ars iii t delivered befo)re a deliberative body, this does strike bills upon the faith of sovereignty alone. Nothiig ine as the silliest, and yet this is the very thing which else being pleged for their redemptioi, no law could has been done in this Convention, oily 19 voting to compel sovereignty to redeem them. uibiut them qtietion toi the people, whether they would Here Mr. K., (without concluding,) gave way for atccept a clause which you propose to be a part of the Mr. LA A RENCE, upoi whose motion tie Couven Constitution. tion adjourned. Butt I have another proposition. I affirm that these bank cha rters which you are going to repeal, are con- I stittional; and I am going to vote against your pro- ONE HUNDR,ED AND EIGHTH DAY. pon.ition to authorize theci repeal. I say that the I'iURSDAy, oeb. 6, 1851. present bank, created by the State of Ohio, is costi- O'CLOC, A. M. tutioinal. I say that. Who says it is not? Mrly. lUREEiMELIN, (in his seat.) I do. 1The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. S~v~nAL M1a::nxrrm "I do." " do."Prayer by Rev. 5[r. Lord. ,I-V.EP,AL " IMdo." "I do." -Nfr. GILLETT presented a petition from D. Young Mr. KENNON. "III "I," all around me, say it is I I iand niniety-fotir other citi~ze~is of L~awrenc,.e county, not constitutional. Well, I say it is. Now, the gen- paying tht a 1 be inserted inl the now Coustitutlniea~n from Hamilton is going to fix out a Constitii- tion pr-oliibitirin the Legi sture from passing any law tioii, by which individuals iiav be incorporated, to do legalizing ti c in spirituous liquors, w (>ih oii m,what? tion was laid oil the table. Mir. REEMELIN. I would incorporate men for aniv I R,SPITION OF DEBiATE. lawful purpose. Mr. LIDEY submitted the followiug: Mr. KENNON. Then, wherever individuals could Rcsolced, That -no member shall speak cr sisc: lawfully associate themselves together, for a lawful aiy one subtict. nore thain tea minute.t purpose, the gentleman would give them an act of in. r A L'' g i a Mr./1 ARCHIBOLD was against its adoption,'till afte,r corporation. Well, that is a good principle. But he might have an opportunity of replyito the perwhat is a lawful purpose, is another question. sonalities which lihad been directed a!aiist him las-, Gentl'emen will say to mei here-the gentleman from eveninil Guerasey, perhap s-the Constitutini of the United Thc PRESIDE NT remarked tliat, un'der a rule of States says, no State shall emit bills of credit, nor the Convention, no geiitlemau could speak out of or — make anvthing but gold and silver coin a lawful ten der, withou-t unanimous conieit; and that rule could der in the payment of debts; and could anythiug 1le not be suspeiided but by a vote of two-tlhird. The~ more plain than that this was intended to prohibit chair felt constrained to enforce this rule, so that no the Sta,es from creating banks? Well, if geitlemee. geni tlein could spea- our of ordei zn gentleman, c~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ eilrani colmpake t a out, ofhrery no b-eiiltrat me canl make that out, they canl beat ne. therelfre. could retaim the floor but by spc'deing in. But, what is a bill of credit here made unconstita- ord er. Now that te session was dan to a close, tional, so tbhit it cannot be a teuder, in the payment of the chair felt it a duty to enforce the observance of debts-what is it? G entlemen ask me, is not a bink the rules, and to coninue gentlemen to the question. bill a bill of credit7 In one sets,se of the word it is; Hie hoped this notification would be receii~ed as adand so is a bill of exchange. Gentlenieii tiei sa dressed to the house, and ant to any particulc,-rsnenihow is it possible, theii;-is it not as clear as any ber. mathematical propositiol, that a State cannot author Mr ARCHBOLD had n design to ii lulg in per ize a corporatoion to do that which it would be unlaw- sonatities in his reply. Although he l,,ad bieii mrful for the State itself to do? The lufereuce from ii'e sa nm tdmcayb ~udhtii these premises is not true. For a State to authorize dulge iin aiiytliing which would be dictated by unJ the issacince of bills of credit does not come within friendliness; for lie fildtnoe the prohibitioii which says that a State shall ilot grant beRE DET ntiut-gI'bqeto letters of miarque and reprisal. But, if the State ofwa pnteaoiisoterout Ohio were ~o enilt bank paper, for the redemption of Mr. ARCHBOLD then nioved to lay the' resoluticis which ti[e faith of the State should be pledged, that uposi the table; but immediately witlidi-ew the motion woould tie unconstitutional; and so it would be, if the at the request of State were to authorize individuals, to insure paper Mlr. M'~ITCHIlELL, who, promising to renew it, said;. money, uponEthe pithtd fa;ithsofgt~he.State. ho thought the present a very nnupropitinus time for Mr GROESBEC (iteroin. Could the State the adoption of this resolution; fo~r the reason, that, of Ohio grant a charter to coiii money? last evelung the Convention was addressed in the first W'arrel, WilliamIs an;d A \(orIthi: t oni-48. Na is-tceuri~-. B:~r Bee, B en n tt, Bai r. Brown of Athenis. Biow n e l Ca rro ll, Caill, Farr, lo'Iorence, lForbes, Gillet. t, Greenie of Detate, H7ald, Haw kins, Hendlerson, Holmres, (to1~, Hortzron^, [{ullit,,r, Jo)ies, Larsi,,,idey, ltouio.o, Mason, Mo(rehleart, 5;orrnis, McIC'ormfick,,:,eroris, O3rton)l, Patt~ersont, P eckl, Pauhey, I:,i,'1 ie, Sawyer, ~t, cbi Is, Stil well. S'ticklney(+, Stidg~e.r i-trubibe, Smwift,'ra=y f lr, Thiompson of Starks,'Tom inslbendf, Wv\'ilson anitd Presidelt —44. So the re.oluti.ioni was laid on- the table. Imere question ot LAW. Blt wwthen we cotrie to look -it what will be the effect of suhen a provision uponi future charters, it becolnes a ve(ry imiportant queslion. For we have un. (ldoubtedIv the )povwer to prescribe in the Coustitutioll tliat a chlarter shall never be deemed a contract; and th:.t it maey be repealed. Now, I deny thalt our banks are unconstitutional, an, that their charters ought to be rep)ealed for that reason. For if they were not constitutional, they tiiilit be repealed at any time by a writ of qo ttwarran,rto, or evenr by act of tlhe Legislature, and they could inot (complain. The whole of them might be blowed out by a single dash of a pen. I assert that as iny ind(livid'tial op)inioni. fr e lis the Legislature of Ohlio, or of any other State of this Uiiiou thle power to create banks of discount and issue,,? Let me suppose a few thlings here which I think tmust trouble some of our friends very muchl. Let us repeal, if you please, all the laws in the State of Ohio u ipon the suliject of banking. Let us have every bank i n thie State out of existence, and start asew. The constitutionii ofi the United States prescribes, that no State shall emiit bills of credit, nor make any thling but gold and silv,er a tender in the paymeilt ofdebts. And now I-t Mir. Lougworthli or Mr. Buruet, of this city, or Many otiler mian of great wealth, issue his note of hand in the precise form ofacommoni banlk note; and let hib sigi it. It is payable in s)ecie, on demand. And let antother man go to him and say, "'Sir, if you will let rIe use this note of yours, I will give you my niote pasyable in six rnotiths. I want your note because it will pass as currency." The man of credit conseits, and the notes are exchanged. All the difference between themrn being that the one bears interest and the other does not. Does any nian suppose that would be an uinconistitutional exercise of power on the part of the wealthy individual? Ard if one man can do such a thiug cons.titutionally, cannot a company of two, three or more do the samrne thing? It is a common law right which every individual may exercise, unless restraiised by a statute of his own State; aud yet no mrnan would think he was violating the constitution of the Uiiitetd States in so doing. It is then allowable by the law of the State (the common law,) and is as much authtrised a s if a posuc tive statute of the State had passed in favor of such BroLL oF RIGI.1'rS. O dmottito, ty nin. MANON,n the Convedntion low took atp thle onsideratA i y of the report o f the conimiittee on t1-e PIreamible and Pill of rights. Toi-le PPIES-DEN" stated the question to be upon Air. ARciicmmLDu',s aimen,idm-tent to thie amiienidment of Mr. LAxwP::-t.C, to wit: strikin,g- out fr-omii the foi,rier arrenldnieiit, the::e words, "to alter. revole, repeal or abolish, by act of tlhe G neral Asseml)ly, agy. rant or lIlaw conletting speci~al privi~leges o tin tt es lupo any portion of toh people," anld i nsting these words, "no special privilge (3 or irnm ity shall,t ever be grainted inljulrio~s to tle pabiec, antl,"' so that the provision ,would read as follows; to coimie in at the end of the seetion: "AInld no special p:rivilege or irtntiunit. shiall ever b e grawted, i~tljrions to th-e pubic, and cannlt reasonably be enjoy-oed by all" Mr. KI'-NNON (beig itiedto tlhe floor) said: It is very u.n.asu Mi fo1r miie to occupy th-e floor so long, but I couid n it s d OeOO: rimy poigtiou nt upot c tdis question iu a f ew words. I arn udlerspecil ob)ligationis to theh cair for intimatiii~, to,me whlt is tlhe true st,tte of the question. I shall erd-,avor to st.ick to it and keep in order, a thing seldom do-lie iLl tI',is Coniventi,iorn. Fiie atme(lne,det of the g,,ntlem-nan fronm Guernsey, (Mr LAwVIrENe:;,\T ) authorizes the Legislature to do cer. tain t wins: wltiis, tlhe arnentli', of the gentlem an fr-rn Mlonrofe, (?Ivlr. ARCQBOLD,) is to prohibit Lhe Le — islature firom-yi doitg certain things. TIhe one proposes to confer authority, atnd the othier proposes to take it away. 'Tie great object of a Constitution is to take awav, niot to delegate plowiers to thte Legislativ(e body; and to mny mind, a nm,ost coniclusive aigumencit cou-ld be drawn from t'"is fact. I have endieavored to show, tliat the amnendmfetat of the gentiemani from Gu-ernsey ought niot to be adopt-d: because it is retrospective in its ope I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6. exercise of power. But, say gentlemen, the constitun United States, every memnber of which, in all proba tion of tlie United States provides that no State shall bility, had suffered from these bills of credit, which emit bills of credit or make any thing but gold and sil- were issued by the Congress of the United States, ver a tender in payment of debts. upon the plighted and broken faith of the States. One great qtestiont in the determination of the mean- Tfh old articles of confederation, or old Constitution, ing of" bills of credit," is what did the framers of the was before them, with the words "bills of credit," constitution of the Uuited States mean by these words? again and again written upon its face, and the mem In the articles of confederation which existed at the time bers of that Convention wrote down in the new Con of the formation of the constitution oftheU. States, the stituition these words: "No State shall emiit bills of expression "bills of credit" is used again and again, credit." Can anybody misunderstand what was and the articles themselves provide that the "bills of intended by these words? They meant that l, credit"lissued before thattime by Congress, should be re- sovereign State should issue such paper as the bill deemed, and the faith of the United States were there of credit menlltioned in the articles of confederation pledged for their redemnption. Not only so but the ar- And what was that? It was a bill of credit issued ticles of confederation authorised Congress to issue by a being who could not be compelled to pay, and "bills of credit," all or nearly all the States had issued intended to circulate as money, and w]lich, at that them, and as I have before said, that at the time of time, was nmade a tender in payment of debts. The the adoptiion of the United States constitution, more effect of this clause was twofold. 1st it took away than two hundred millions of these "bills of credit" from the States a power which each undoubtedly had been issued by Congress. possessed; and, 2d, it did not confer that power on h~~~~~~~~~~~~~te eeal G oerent -issbad bee dongesbys., They are the same which were afterwards called the General Gonerument, as had been done by the continental money. They were not only issued by old Constitution so that neither, now, possess td States arid the General Government, but they were power. But it is said that it was intended to iiclu e expressly made a legal tender in payment of all'debts, bank bills also. It would be strange indeed, if the and Con[gress at one time passed a resolution request- framers of that instrument had so intended, that they emg each State to make the bills of credit of eacl a did not say so in so many words. Why vwas it not leg al tender il all the States.' added, that no state shall create any banking incor leg~~~~~~~~~~~~oalteondTey we ll keofthe Staitense.fsc There was, at the time of the adoption of the poration? They well knew'of the existeuce of such United States Constitution, bank paper in circula- ijstitutions, and of the war which, ii sone sections tion, known as bank paper issued by a corporation of the Unioni, had been carried oni b)twtieei bank bills All these bills of credit depreciated so that one hun- and bills of credit, the friends of bills of credit claim in,, that b~ank bills haid a teid,ndenc to depreciate the dred or a thousand dollars could be boughlt for one i that fank bills led a tndncvi to deprecite thi dollar. This depreciation continued until they be- bills of credit. I claim, that if bauk bills were incame of no value; and yet, both the States and the tended, they would have been specifically named. General Gover niient made them a tender in payment Inii thede! ates on the adoit.ioi of the col)stitution, the of debts, sometimes requiring that thirty continental words Banks, Bank bills, or batik notes are I believe dollars should pass for one dollar in silver, in such not once even used. The werd paper-money is, but tender. there was at that time no paper money but bills of How w ere these bills of credit to be redeemed by the credtit and never had been, for Bank notes never were Gencral Governmenit? It had no meanis to redeem considered money or made a legal tender il payment but by taxation, and it had no power to compel a of debts so far as I recollect, but bil's of credit were State to pay its quota of taxes. All the General Gov- issued for, and iiitelidead to circulate as money and all erimeut could do, was to request each State to raise, persons were compelledi to take them as rmouey. They bytaxation, its shareof the debt. Thie United States, were paper money e onventio will perceive under the old confederation, could only act upon that I have been attempting to shov rlom the history sovereign Sates, and not uponthe individualsof each of the time what was meart by the words "bills ofcredState. Thie request was again and again made, but it." I do not stop here; a!tmost immediately after the the States provided no means to redleerim this paper. adoptioni of the Constitution, the States comnmenced to They w,ere whollyunable to do so. They repudiated infcorporate banks and h."ve continued to do so down the whole debt. They could not redeem eveii their to the present hour. These coiteinporaneous acts, is own bills of credit. Some States made the attempt sorie evidence of the meaning of the Constitution, but to pay their share of the taxes, by issuing new bills this is not all. No Judicial tribunal so far as I know, of credit on the faith of the State, and making them either of the State or general government, has ever a tender in payment of taxes. This but increased decided that a State had noI the power to incorporate the evil. The result of the whole matter was, that Banks. They have decided that a STATY: cannot issue if the citizens of a State, who were themselves hold- its own paper to circotlate as money in these cases ers of these bills, consented to be taxed to pay theim, when the faith of the State andi that only was pledgthey were but taxing themselves to pay, in many ed for the redemption of such pa;er, but never that a instances, a debt due themselves; and if to pay the balk composed of individuals might not be incorpodebt due to another, they felt neither able nor wil- rated. Let me here put a qnestio. to the gentlemen ling. The faith of each State of the Unioni had been of the bar who claimr that a Banik is unconstitutional. forfeited. Their solemnly pledged faith had been Did any of you ever hear of aiiy lawyer in any State of violated, and the holders of their bills of credit in- this Untioi,, who ever claimed before aiiv Judicial trijured, or ruined. They were, in everybody's hands, buinal, that a bank was unconstitutional? Who was wholly valueless. The toil of years was lost. There he, when and where did lie do so. Andi yet it is as plain was no remedy. Sovereignty is above all law, and as noon day that if these institutious are not constituno possible means could compel a sovereign State to tional, no bond or note ever executed to them, no debt pay but that of arms, and this last remedy was in ever due to a Bank could have beeni collected. If unthe hands of those against whom such remedy was constitutioual, then banks have riot even a aame to sue to be applied. It would have been the people against or be sued by, every act of iiicorperation itself is utterthemselves. ly null and void, and yet neither client nor lawyer The great evil was, that a State, the real debtor, in defending suits at law against these institutions ever could not be sued. In this state of things, the Con- attempted to make the defenice. Passing strange; and vention assembled to frame the Constitution of the yet if any member of this Convertioin should eni 508 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURS)Av, FEBRUA,Y 6. saying so in this Constitution, and that all such clauses are wholly useless. pWhen the question shall arise, as to what power shall be conferred on the Legislature to repeal corporations hereafter created, I will either give mly opinion upon the terms on which they should be repealed, or you will have those opinions from my votes. But sir, I will vote for no proplosition which may reasonably be construed to be a violation of the Constitution of the United States, and if the question has been so decided by the Supreme Court of the United States, and uniformly so decided, I will consider that a good reason why the clause shall be consid(lered a violation of that supreme law of the land. These are my views upon ihis subject. I find no faultlwhatever, with the opinions of other members. Let them mai ntain their opinions here and elsewhere; all I ask is, to allow me to entertain my own opinions uponi these important law te q uest ions; oe esp,ciallnvr, as 11o man here has at tempte d to showe a eny dcisili of any Court, t the o n ta a e l ge to the contrary. I am uc obliged to this Convention for their p atient attention, and weill now yield th e floor to others. Mr. DORSEY. In the brief remarks, which I shall muake, Mr. President, on the question under conside ration, I shall address myself at once to the subject matter of the debate, lhavinig no personal difficulties to complainj of, and no personal grievances to redress. I have no temptation to wander into forbidden paths, but I desire simply, to call the attention of genltlemerin of the Conven-tioni to an argument which bears vitally on this question of Repeal. The proposed amendment of the gentleman from Mfonroe, as well as the original amendmtenit of the gentleman from Guernsey, brings up the whole ques tion of Repeal, and, I doubt not, was initelided so to do. I have alreadv, sir, given mv opinion oni this mat ter, in its practical bearing, and I have only been in duced to trublel(, the Convention with further renarks, from the fact, that in the discussion of this question, we have by legal gentlemen on this floor continiued( reference to the decisions of the Supreme Court,, axd we are continually reminded by them, that we caln never make operative the doctrine of Respeal witlh these decisions staring us ill the face, and that Court readv to uphold and declare these decisions,. N ow, sir, I have great respect for the legal talent and learning on this floor, and am ready at all titmes to yield due deference to the opinions of' its represeni tatives- but I do claim, sir, that in examinina a qules tion like this, a question involving the rights, the in terests, the verv sovereiginty of a State, ge!ntlemen should come on this floor, without the fear of the Su prerne Court before their eyes. Ilere, sir, as it seems to me, is the great error which has been committed in the discussiam o~f this qiues tion, which has thus far been mostlv confined to gen tleniienl of the legal profession, that'instead of looking to the great principles of right and justice. ancdof the Const~itutioni oni wvhiclh this doctrine is based, they have allowed themselves to be stopped in their pro gre.ss bv the decisions of the Supreme Court. I hold, sir, that ill qulestionls like this, there is somlethinlg be yond the authority of the Sulpreme C'ourt, beyrond the decisions of anyv (Jourt, either State or Natictlal, and that is the Con~stit~utionl of the United States- and I thank God, sir, that in th1is coulntryw have 1Y a writ tena Constitution, an organic law of the Repulblic, so plain and so intelligible whenl interpreted byt its; letter, that everly man possessed of ordinary intelligence, cannot fail to understand and interpret it aright, and boldl in this belief, I shwall feel flee to express mF views on the Constitutional questions connected wit;x tertain the opinion that they were constitutional, he is. pronounced whig and thrown out of the democratic party by men having far less power to do such an act Ithan banks have to issue paper. Ilhave said this much to show that the members of this convention ought not expect to enigraft aclause in the constitution for the purpose of repealing banks now in existence, upon the grounds that the legislature had no power to create them. Mr. President,I have said before that this cotnvention s eems w ell c alculated to try rnen's faith, to determine th eir politics by taking the opinions of member s on more law questions, and if some of the members do notgs gree with others ad d o lot swear that the law is as they claim, they are no democrats Sir, I hav e s om e l ittle app rehension, that many ot these silyloni pure democrats, real professors, would not vote as they do if they deyid not know that the p roposition for w v, which they vote, and which they ad riot ubmi itspara ely Fortepole htn bansrtio,Isaladrsmyefaonce,t h ujc v ocate, could not be carried. For instance, if all the whigs and the' wtwelve," w er e to leave t hi s Hall, w ould gentlemen insert a c laus e in this Constitution, that no debt hereafter contracted in which the c reditor voluntar ily trus te d the debtor, should be collected by law, no matt er h ow able th e debtor was to pay. Would they insert a clause ilin this Constitution, and not sib submit it separately to the pe ople, that no banks should be hereafter created, that the pres ent b anks should close up, and that th e paper of banks out of the State, should not be circulated within this State? I think th Pey w ould not; and in saying so, I have no doubt many of the m wou ld vote to insert it, belie ving banks to be unconstitutional, and beli eving the people wouldh ad opt the Constitution with such clause in it,. But sir, I still think if the whigs and the pro scri bed " tw elve," woul d leave this Hall and let the balance of the members constitute a quorum, that such a clause would find no place in the Conestitution. I gt miat be submitted separately. When such a vote was ta ken and d efeated, we heard fro m t h e press very little if any complaint. Honors were considered easy. Altlhough advocated, who would pretend to insert a clause in this Constitution, that aUl the convicts in the Peni te ntiary should be paid for all the labor they perfort in the PeCn itenti ary, out of the State T reas ur y. I say wsth o would vote for such a clause, if ihe knew it could be inserted. Some could be found who woil Id vote for such a clause w hen they knew it could not be ca rried. They wou ld vote for it as expressing thei r own seantimeints, but surely thev could not sup- pose the people would agree to such clause. I have eCndeavored to show what a constitution of a State is; that it is th e mere frame work of a sovernment —that if there was no clause in the Constitution of the Uni ted State s to the contrary, no h igher law opposing, that the CoList itutioin of a State operates upon things as it finds thevn-that if it confers power on the LeU islth re to irepeal charters, it could repeal all charters inexist ence at the, time of the. act of the Legislature, no natter when created. That the Legislature wosuld p,ossess that powncer at any rate, unless restrained bv the Coistitution of the United States or of the State of Ohio. It i s for that reason, and that olyih, that the clause "No ex-post facto law, or any law ietmepair ing the validity of contracts," is inserted in a Conisti tultionl of a State a: all, it is to take away such pow er fromn the Legislature, writhout which restrictions they whould have such power. I lhave tried to prove that if these charters are contracts we have no right to repeal them, "'any thing ill the Constitutionl (or laws of and State, to the contrary notwithlstanding." The Oonstitution of tile United States, is the supremuelaw of the land. That if charters are not conltracts, then the Legislature hlas power to repeal them without our I I I I I 509 510 01IO CONVENTION DEBATES-TjURSDAY, FF,T-tUARY 6. and involved in this subject, now before the Convert-'to that deipart-ment by tile states, iiot one jot, not one tion, not given as an opinion on Constitutional law, tittle is possssed beyond the piain clear aud deritiit' but an oplinion on the plain letter of the Constitution, . Or,letter of thei, Constitution. If a-ny other power is as expressed in language not easy to be orisunder claimed or exercised, it is a usuirpe,d power and should stood. be resisted in its inception, in its pregress and in its On what foundation, sir, rests this doctrine of Re consummation. Aye, at every step and in every shape, peal? I answer, on the sovereignty of the people of by those ho are desirous of upholding the rights tile a sovereig'n State. This is the only foundation, aside liberties and the sovereicoty of the states. If ver from the broad principles of natural and inalienable this nation is destroyed, Mr. Pri sident, if ever its i0 right, on which it can be based, so as to render it ef- titutions are overturned, it will not be froni outward fective, and the Constituti. on of the United States frce or foreian power, it will iot be from the con sanctifies and justifies the whole doctrine of Repeal, tending shock of stdte interests or the fierce rival y of and. miakis' to (vxererse it effective in the hands sectional factions, but it will be from the slow, the si of the eisttt.Thsinstrument is the grant of lent, the stealthy, the scarce perceptible aggressiens of sovereion States, and when we established the doc- t he Federal govecrinierit, and most of il, I ear tire Jo truie of State sovereignty, we established also the diciary of that governme0t. Atd sir, is there not 'right and the power of a State to repeal all acts of reason forthati g fear, whent w see iembrs ol this inc~~~~~~~~~~~~orportions fevenir, when wherse inereer ony havs lric()rporatioro, even iii cases where there may have floor, men who have convened here to form an cr,,iariic iton 110 violation of the ternas of the charter. law for a sovereign state, holding up in terrorem, befori WWe have been told by the gentleman from Irelmont, the view of this Convention the decisions 0f that Su Mr f I- 0) that the, StaLtes arc sovereign. except Ipretne Court, which has ever showi itseIf the enemv -ii, far as they hav~e d4eleated their power to the G ofsae f~irl Gr;cinincraveI der,ied fully,r powerito the Gen-of state sovereignty, and citing its dicta to corifrolet ctlG,,veriiiien-t. I agree fully with this declaration o and weigh down tie acts of the Legislature iid tre (if thie gentleman, anld I subscribe to many of the dIc. iin ftec p o l.ei, tr,tl-, trines lie has laid down, in his speech, but I wish th is o But sir, I have said that if this Judiciary is confir,,d one to be p,,irticularly~bor'ile IIInmirid~bythe c ntion within the bounds and limits which are assignrel to it The General Governi.enit is one of limited and dele- by the strict line and letret of thre Coinstitutions, thit gated powers, created by tie action ofsovereiin states .Y 11 I~~~~~th-einthis doctrinieof Reoe,eai, can be, madle efTfective, aind owing, to themn its- existenice,and( it;, powers. This then the rights of the state —, can be inaii,taired arid hen isanimortar.t principle, and one of which I desr, is to1 sighpcr -t principle, and orne ohat w che I des-re, all questions arising betweeni a state and her own citi tlen gt and orn aelmont re estocrry iodeedhat this gioci zens can be settled and settled definitively arid bey-orid tfemon from elmont, refuses to cal'y ot this princi- weofapa,bth ii ayubntso'te to0it to full'licati-n in tire subjcct uownder discis tn ri bunis of the ple.to s ful-aplication in the subetndrdsu s t atesa itself For if the Legislature be the rea rI ielre ~~o stu.-Againi the same gen-tlemani tells s,and it is-, senttve of the state, sovereignty, there is no po01,-:r or) anotlher imp,,rtant truth, one of which I fear ire do es ere t t i) h fully realize the extent, that the Legislative po w er ihicbas or can have a right to ste etwi iii it I ~~~~and the citizens whomi it represents, unjless the- p-)wwer not to be considered as properly speaking a delegated s Ilo do so be plainly and specifically granted I v tle state has all power which the people of tIe State haovereignty itself; this proposition is too plai,I to ineed previo~dy- yelded o som othertribunl in aword I farther elucidation. Now let us suppose a case ill pi-evion lIv-yieldled to n,7ine other tribunal, in- a word, which the Legi satore of this or airy other tile - the Legiilatoreis the representatve of the sovereign t~ or the State The L i~l~uie then may pe als the charter 0l' an association or an incorporaetion ,y of the State..[v'h g e. islatirev then may perfid i granted by the authority of tire state — thle corfporiation appeals from the decision of the Legislituoe to tile i'.s no power t~ che, ck th~e exrcise ofi' state sovererignty Courts of the state, the Judg,.s of these courts acting except th,e express prohibitions contained in the con-in cting s titotion of thIe United States. Let us examine then t o which we are framing, confirm the act of the Legisla fer' moma i,)iclen, t he structure of thi,,s instrum ient,, which -isates, baetu msednth ture, and this tliev mkist do if this constitution givis ';,overei,,r states have thus impl-osed on thm.ele,a r such power to the Legislature, and they have sworn to a cheek or rather as a rule of action, in their rela-spportth tions with each other. What is it? It consists of va- s g ontitution rious powers which have been entrusted to three se ep Bse, says the gentleman fronii Belmont, no man c:n mrate d(partients. the Executive, the Legislative arid time, take au oath to support the Conistituition),f the the Judiciary. The bounds and limits of these de- Unitedtate, wi th to deCi s ionr of the partm~o~s Invob~ arefolly dUfined Stha hymyC~rt ates, with these decisions of ~he Sirprearie parim~eii,',,s I,,ave been carefully dc~fine otr that they may Cot staring him in the face. Well, sir, such is no 'loOC',-e pa,,,s oi. one arostherond othbt the m a dot e opinion-the honest opinion of that gentlereedc I-,le powe7(rs entrusted to them by th-ose who gave!Iob,tl them tli(ir existence, but it is evident that the limits man, butI choose to believe, that when a j d,e takes ian oath to support the Consititutioni of teUie of the Jidiciaiv have be en less carefully dfined,dh th osepot the Cofthere( States, lie does riot necessarily swear to support the de elln f the Supreme- Court —he tak~es ail oath to ldepartments and hence we fnd a co,ntiued disponi- of the t support the Constitution of the Un ited States, in all its poe in o tit fellowsbutentiieito - roach, nots ony te states grants and powers, as specifically given by the sorep-,,-erii:es Of itsem4llvws b ut on the rights of the statesreign S'ates-but he is not to so,iport any ilecisioris of It cannot be denied aggressive attacks on the rights of the General ~States, nor is lie to uphold any claim of power ini that ~pion up ~orn rii~ udiciry o the overn-eCostitution, not plainly granted ini its very letter. orent which is conitinoally trenching upon the rights''eei,te,10cnlc awe h tt osi aird privileges of the states and assnming to itself and lto,adta fteUi~ tts o oet claiingfortheGenralgovriieii~poersireer ii-show, that there is no grant of power in that coniistitotended to he confe~rred on either by the states, and yet to,b hc h uiir fteGree'vr both are hat the creatures of the states, holdiug irot one powr wichhasnotbee grri ed o tem ~merit hap ainy right to interfere between a sovereignr solitatry yoe Stih at io en gatedtotemA the states. Arid there is no power in airy one of eiecs fisatoiy hog ~el islatore and its own citizens. Sir, there is no0.tieh there departmenits of tihe General governmeirt unless pwrga e-nhns ug a,terhcsl such powver has been plainly arid specifically granted take an oath to support both these constitutions. 1OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TH,URSDA,, FEBRUATZY 6. I esi, then, when the courts of a State, have decided which thie judiciary cani interfere and reverse such dea (aseo between that State, and her own citizens, can cision. such case be constitutionally carried onl appeal to the The declaration contained in the first clause of the Supreme Court of the United States? I say itcannmot. sectioni whiich I have read, that " the jodicial power I say there is no power given to the judiciary of the shall extend to all cases in law and eluity, risilg under General Governirient, to interfere iii such case. I am the constitution," does not apply here, for this is not a not igntorant, Mr. President, that I amrn preaching legal case either in law or equity. under the Constitution of heresy. I expect to be told by lawyers on this floor, tlhe United States —il is a si.,,ple question of the State that I know nothing about this matter-that this nmat- sovereignty, for whenever any lpower atteai'pts to inter has long ago, been decided by the courts, and is terfere in a case between a sovereign State, and its ownI no10 loger a question to be mooted. But, sir, though I citizenls, a question of sovereignty is involved. amrn preaching legal heresy, I ask very respectfully the But I shall be told that the Jdicia of 1789, the attention of the convention for a few minutes, jurisdici(-)n aii white I attempt to show, that such heresy, has at least gave the Supreme Court, uppelatei a foundation in the constitution, and that I am borne all cases," decided in the highest couts of law O out iti it, by the letter, and by the spirit of that instru- equity, iln a State, where there is a question of the ient. validity of a statute; but I answer, tlat Congress Now sir, let us examine the circumstances and could not confer any power on the Supreme Nw sir, let us examine the circumstances and facts' Court, whichl was not conferred by the Constitution,. atteuditlg the formation of that constitution. Thir- because all suchpowcrs are reserved to States, or to teen sovereign States, each one of which claimed to be the people, and are beyond the control of Congrs s; supreme within its own boundaries, riet in solemii therefore, the expression "all cases," meaniisher, only co:nvention, to agree on the formation of a Federative all cases within the grant of power allowed to bhe exsystem to serve as a bond of union, and as a greater se- ercised by the Constitution, and if it is cons+rued to curity for the cornmon defence and welfare. To ren- meal anlything more, such construction is by tlhe der this Federal Government, such as should be iieces- very ter s of the case, null and void' Conlgres.s can sary to secure the great ends for which it was establish- never overstep the bounds of the Constitution. ei, certaini powers and privileges, heretofore belongig As I aid before, sir, I knw his i legal eesy to each separate sovereignty, are, by them, yielded to ,perhiaps scarcely at lawyer on this.qoor will agr-ee with this central power, or Federal head, and these grants of erhassarcel lawyer on ths floor bll re it power, carefully specified, are emnibodied in an instru- ile be told, that I a peetiga irc pow..... i ticable remiedy-that this matter has tong since been irient, known as thle Federal Constitution, but with a jealousy n~atural tothosewholioavelo0ngeiijoyed-3u decided by the courts; I know all this may be, anrd jealousy uatural to those who have longenjoyed supr pobbywlbemsi;btstIpa nsi Ote probably will be said; but,. sir, I plant myself' on the. power, they are anxious to limit this grant to the precise ,. simple' letter of the Constitution, and on the broad terms specified in the instrument, and with a cautious- basis f the sovereignty of the States, it I say that hiess, which forcibly marks the high estimation in which b is o sov ei o th iti adr ta their sovereignty was held; they declare "The pow- by thie position, and I lear by this position -i ill the doctrine of Repeal —that doctrine which -s itvalers not delegated to the United States by the Constitu-eemen b fetivly sustained ver ticni, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to etochmfent on the igets aid sovecieg.gy of'i the States respectively, or to the people." Nothing State, is highly dangrous we ould fec orlve ,. ~~~~~~State, is highly dangerouls; we shoulld fence oltrsel-e~s can be rpore apparent, than this jealous parsimony of round with the strong guard of the Cons.titution, granting away their powers; nothing caui be more evi- ad enever by any deptment of the goenent, den, tan hatthi ois t i utiii s agrat o poerand whenever, by any department of the govecrn,,.nent, dent, than that this Constitution is a grant of power that guard is attempted to be overleaped or 1)okeii that guard is attempted to be overleap(~d or br)-ok,ei from sovereign States, to a Federal head. Is this sove- down, we siold stand up as one nail, to rcp,,l the reign, then, to permit the exercise of any power not assault. By this means, alone cas tle s(v',.eiginty grailted or delegated, and shall a sovereign submissively f the Sates be maintaie. A bow to the creature of its own creation? Again, what are er aggressive-ee r prone to increas,i tiha l hicw are the powers granted by the States to the judiciary of ae a pigniy to-day, becomes a giant to-raorronti the the General Government? These are plainly and ex- right wicli wa barel ced(s at n te inort is tr pressRly stated in the second section, of the third article, rrtly claime d at te next, ad w e a re is daer iow a n toa claimed at the next, and we are n dang,er, which says, " The judicial power shall extend to al unless this unwarrantable iiterference of tbec Suicases in law and equity, arising under this Constitution; preme Judiciary with the rights of States, can be re,premeJuiirwihtergtofSae,anere the laws of the United States, atnd treaties nmade, or pealed,of seeing, one by one, our rights and our which shall be made, under their authority; to all ca- privileges as States, invaded and destroyed. till all ses affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and are swallowed up in thecapacious vortex of thepowconsuls; to all cases of admiralty and maritime jutrisdic- er- of the general government. tion; to controversies, to which the United States shall r of te be a party; to controversies, between two or more Stru I for one w i not st and by calmlv while this States; between a State and c;tizens of another State; destructive revolution is going on; I have al,oe of between citi zen s of different States; between citizens that holy respect for the precedents and decisiiJns of of the same State, claiming lands under grants of dif- ea of he ameStae, laiinglans uldrgrats r df-Courts, which stands in the way of the progress of so miany gentlemen on this floor; and I am willing, here ferent States, and between a State, or the citizens there- nuaj e of, and foreign States, citizens or subjects." ill my place, to assert that on this question of repeal and the power of the Legislature, and of the State Her wehav a lai an cocis-enmertio ofallCourts, to make thait repeal effective, theC Suplreme the cases in which the judiciary of the General Goveni- Court o manke Stateryp.a e t the-n pree Court of the Unsited Stntcs, has no right —no poecr, ment, can constitutionally exercise its authority, and no authoritunder the Constitution to ieifere there is here no warrant for any interference in a ques- that at all hazards, such inte ference should be retlion which is to be decided between a State and its own pelled, and the sovereignty of the Sttes prcst-rvcd citizens, And, if in pursuance of its just powers, un- intact and inviolate. The valueeof State sovereignty, der a constitutional provision, a Legislature of any the value of the right of repeal, and the value of State, shall, for the public welfare, see fit to repeal the the liberties of the people, which consist so much in charter of an incorporation, and if that legislative act, the maintenance of these two great rights, are essenis endorsed and confirmed by the State courts, there is tially one and the same, and they are beyond all no power in the Constitution cf the United States, by pricbeyond all computation. 511 I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TIUrSDAY, FEtRUARY 6. In the remarks which I have had the honor to sub- to be injurious to the public welfare, and the people mit to the Convention on a former occasion, 1 have demand of their Legislature that it shall be prohibitsta~ed the principles by which, in my opinion, the ed. There is no doubt that the Legislature can proright of repeal was to be regulated-that it was to be hibit the business to individuals, and to my mind it is exercised only for the welfare and benefit of the pub- equally clear it can to corporations. The creation of lic, and of the necessity for its exercise, the Legisla- corporations with these privileges, places them on pre. ture must be the judge. I can onlynow,sir, reiterate cisely the same footing with individuals, each havilg'a this declaration, iand repeat that the same power which right to engage in and pursue the occupation, subject is competent to judge when powers may be taken to be suppressed by the legislature, whenever thile pubfrom the people aind granted to corporations, is equally lie welfare shall require it. Shall I be told that there is coinpetent to determine vwhen such powers shall be a contract in the way of prohibiting the business to the resumed, it is a right founded in the very nature of corporation? This would be conveying the doctrine things, and its preservation is a boon for which we that an act of incorporation is a contract, quite beyond cani,)t pay too dearly-which is invaluable to those I and away out of sight of any decision yet made, and who} woulld uplhol, and would transmit unimpaired, gentlemen may be assured that decisions of this charour righlts, our privileges and our institutions. With acter have already reached the ultimate limit. So far these views, I amn willing to place here, iu this decla- as I recollect the decisions of the Supreme Court of ration of our rights, the amendment of the gentle- the United States, and I do not recollect but two decimail fLorn Guernsey. ded by that court to theleffect that an act of incorpo, a Mr. HOLT said: I wish to exhibit a platform, laid tion was a contract, the Dartmouth College case and upon a firm foundation, upon which myself and, the Mississippi Bank case; in the formerit was decided friend>, naintaiinng tile doctrine of unqualified repeal that the legislature could not transfer the property of can stand unmoved and unshaken. 1 want it in the one set of trustees, appointed in an authorized way, to book to justify to itjustify to our constituents the votes another set appointed in i) different way not authorised which we give upon this question. by the original charter. In the latter case the Legisla I all not follow the gentleman from Belmont, (Mr. ture undertook to change the rights of the corporation KEN lON,) through his tlrain of argumelnt, because it of its debtors and creditors, which had accrued to them as n argumest a of arcause, iot the cause orqestion by virtue of the act of incorporation. The point was an argument of acause, not the causeor question before te Convention The gentleman delivere a whether the Legislature could, or could not, suppress before the Convenjtion. The gentleman delivered aw very able lecture on constitutional law. He forged mthe business of a corporation, authorized by its charter, and fiihed a stro cai. But his lecture was not when, in its opinion, that business had become injurious ,and finiished a strong- chain. But his lecture was not swell r i be not applicable to the question to the public welfare of the State, was neither raised well applied, because not nor tIoght of. Now I put to gentlemen the following undi r consideration-his chain was fastened to the end of a log, which it was not proposed to mov e I |case, and ask them to respond to the question, whether am not prepared to say that I should differ zwith 1m the act of repeal by the Legislature, in the case suppoentirely upon a single proposition which he advanced sod, would he an lufringement of any provision of te sed, would be an itifrip.gement of any provision of tile entrel ipoi a inle roosiion-,hic headancd,Constitution of the United States. The b u snessI of and yet, if he votes as he says he shall, my vote will Constitution of the Uited States. Te bsness of be directly conitrary to his. I do not consent, for this retailing ardent spirits, and of issuing paper money reason, that lihe ~shall be deied a place in the demo gbe allowed to individuals, and also granted to correason, that lie shall be deniied a place in the demo. cratic fold; we can't spare him, nor do I despair of porations by their charter, having become, in the opinhim. I do not now intend a speech, but a platform. o of the General Assembly, detrimental to the prosMy first proposition is the follovwing: *iperity of the State, the Legislature prohibit it some The State Legislature has plenary power. All that what after the following manlier. it is not withheld by the constitution, it possesses. the retailing of ardent spirits and the isso WHEgRAS. the retailing of ardent spirits and the issu i,is noxt wihelry oposti~ion, itpss e s s: My next proposition is: ing and circulation of a paper currency have been The Legisl,atnuie is the proper department ef the found subversive of -he public morals, and embarrassgovernment to declare and establish the policy of the ing to the trade, commerce and business of the State; State; to declare what shall be lawful and what un- Therefore, lavwful. having no check on its action by the Judicial Be it enacted, 4se., That the business of retailing arDepartlmenit, unless it exercises powers withheld by dient spirits, and the issuing and circulation of a paper the constitution. currency is hereby prohibited, as well to corporations My third proposition is: as to individuals, and that all powers and privileges That the Legislature, in the legitimate exercise of heretofore granted to corporations, to retail ardent spir. its powers and duties, should encourage all business its, and to issue and circulate a paper currency, be, and that is promotive of the public prosperity, and pro- the same are hereby revoked, and the laws granting hibit every thing that is found injurious to the public them repealed. welfare. I have not attempted to make a proposition, but the From these propositions, which I take for granted, substance of one. Now will any gentlemana say and none will dispute, I deduce the doctrine of repeal-a so record himself in the book, that steuchl aii act wouldi doctrine which I had supposed well settled as an ar- be an infringement of the United States Conistitutioii. tidle of democratic faith. Will any one say that he believes the Siipretiie Court I now propose to illustrate the foregoing proposi. of the United States would so decide? Well, genitletioes, and sh ow how they necessarily result in their men, you must say, aye, or c6me up and subscribe to operation, in the doctrine of repeal. the doctrine of repeal. This is the alternative, these In the absence of prohibitory legislation, the busi- are the horns of the dilemma, if it be a dilemma. ness of retailing ardent spirits, of gaming, and of is- Choose between then). The Supreme Court of the suing paper money would be lawful, open and free to United States will never make the decisions alluded to all the inhabitants. Each and all of these occupations} authoritative precedents except in cases identical or exhave, at different times, and in different States, beenI actly parallel, The doctrine of repeal comes far ishort both licensed and prohibited. Gaming isnow alicen Iof the principle declared in those decisious. I claim sed, lawful business in the State of Louisiana. Now now, sir, to have shown that the doctrine of unqualiI will suppose artificial persons created by acts of in- fiedsrepeal is clearly constitututional, and that it may corporation, with the privilege of following these sev- be expedient and even necessary. eraloccupations. After awhile, the business is found! After all, I will admit that there may be cases in 512 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TITHURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6. which a re.lluneration should be made to the corporators. If such cases should occur, it would become the duty of the Legislature to make the proper provision; either tc send out a commession to assess damage upon actual view, or send the cause to a jury. The objection of the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE,) that the General Assembly is an unwieldy body, unfitted and unsuited to try tile merits of a cause or claim for remuneration, that such a trial, would cost $50() or $1000 dollars a day, besides being attended by maniy other inconveniences has no force. No such trial is proposed. The General Assemblv determine from the character and complexion of the case whether it be one callilg for remuneration. Generally a simple repeal, together with a provision for disposing of their property, for collecting and paying their debts would be all that would be required. But if a case sihoulid occur when remunteration should be deemed proper, it should be provided for by the Legislature in one of the ways before indicated. Assuredly the representatives of th e people in General Assembly may be trusted to make the decision whether it be a proper case for remuneration, and if it be, the proper mode of ascertaisie g and making it. I would not place a franchise, a political entity on the same hligl ground that I do property hield by natural right. The franc hise is created an d g ranted by the political body and received upon thl e impli ed conditio n that should the public good require it, it may be resumeda. oBu t property held by natu ral riAght can only be appropriated by the State in, c ases of endergency. When such property is taken f o r public use, the owner should be entitled to a full hearing before a jury of his cou ntry. I have fo t gon e out of the re cord to argue or talk about questiones no t befo re the Convention, having not even a remote bearing upon th oe one under consideration. If I am not disqualified by defective sight to discharge mny duty, I certainly am from works of supererogatioii, and for banconmbe. I shall vote for the. amenidment offered by the geentleman from Guernsev, because I think it right, and in the right place. It is a declaration of the power of repeal, the right of repeal. I know itconfers no power on the General Assembly which they could not otherwise possess; and woruld deserve no place in the Conistitutioni, but fram the fact that a great political party in the State deny the power, the General Assemblv have for many years been embarrassed by it, and its importance seems to demand that it should be settled by the people. On motion of Mr. MITCHELL, The Convention took a recess. ques ti on now before us. Is. doing s o, I sha ll be as brief as possible, and shall go no farther than the argument and remarks of that gentleman necessarily leads. I regret that the gentleman from Belmont, (Mrl. KENNON,) is not in his seat. I notice first that part of his remarks, in which he makes a complaint about the manner in which his fellow members on this floor and the party to which he claims to belong, complain of his position and action and the position and action of others, who have thought it their duty to differ with the main part of the democratic party on this floor, on this subject. Now, sir, I ask the attention of the call did meni of this body, to a fair view of this point of difference as to what does or does not constitute them or us legitimate imiemnbers of any given sect or party. Sir, since the history of manl first began, it has been always found that his aggregate race, has been differing, upon almost every question that may arise, whether in relation to his political or his social condition. The manner and extent of that difference have been exceedingly various, in all ages, and constitute a point of distinction between the people and institutions of tle old and new world. As a general thing, sir, among the republics of the old world; for it is only to them that you can look for sufficient intellect and attainments, in the arts and sciences to give any prominence to their differeitces of opinion on subjects of Government, referring, I say, to the governments of the old world, which possessed a degree of freedom such as enabled them to really give character and markedhess to these differences, you find this very striking peculiarity. Universally, two or more parties in their government, and indeed upon almost every subject occupying their attention. But, sir, in a large majority of cases these differences among them were about men. Not so M ith the parties of modern times. We differ more upon principles. Sir, I regard it as highly creditable to the institutions of our country, that our party divisions are predicated upo n a different foundation. We, sir, are supposed to differ upon principle, and the various parties teat are formed under this government all claim that they are separated from each other, not from any particular attachment to this or that lea de r or prominent m an, but upon this or that principle otf govern ment. These differ ences a re not co nfined to poli tics alone, but extend to every thing that comes within the range of discussion, among mankind; and in our day the re is scarcely a s ubje ct th at has no t its various parties, differing, m o re or les s, wid ely on some point or other; so that men are fou nd disagreeing with each oth er, on almost all subjects of t h ought a nd in vestigation, one maintaini ng one hypot hesis and an other, another. As the consideration of the subject widens a etnd extends itself, men are f o un d rangin g themselves on this or that si de, t hus colsntitutin g dis tinct parties or sects. How then, sir, d,) you, or can you discriminate between the m en who are entitled to say f thae at they agree together, and wh a har e e ntitled to be called members of this or that party, or sect, but by enquiring into th e particula r views which they enter taiBs, in re fer ence t o thi s o r that subject dividing the people in to parties. Is not tJis, sir, the way in which the part i es of this country have grown into an organ ized form? Yes sir, it is; and so long as they are maintained on that ground, you may rely upon it, that our country is reasonably safe. So long as the intel leet of the American people is directed to the examin ation of great principles, you need not tremble much for the safety of your government; but when they lose sight of these and begin to follow erring and am bitious men, then is the time to fear. The question pending being on the amendment of Mr. ARICIIBOLD, to the amendment of Mr. LAWRENCE. Mr. MITCHELL. I suppose sir, that now is to be the last time that this vexed question, is to occupy the attention of this Convention; I must say that I hope it is. And inasmu ch as we have reas on t o expect that this will be the last timie that it will occupy our attententioni, I beg the indulgence of the Convention, while I lay before them as briefly as possible, the views which I entertain in reference to the repealability of charters, lor that, sir, I regard as the principal question now before this Convention. But, sir, I hope that I may be indulged for a very little while in replying to some remarks, made here, by the-gentleman from Belmont,(Mr. KENNON), which, to my mind, did not seem exactly to bear upon the 513 AFTER-NOON SESSION. 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATE', —THUR,IDAY, FEBRuARY 6. I' between the parties in this country. When that ques tio,n was first moote(,the strife was warni, and the leacl ing men of the day were arrayed in bitter strife and heated contest on each side. It was raised ill the yery cabinet of Presi(deiit'Aashlington, and was there is cussed with as mnuch warmth and heat as other most I important questions were discussed in that day. It is true indeed that questions were discussed ii) a very dif ferent nianner thl.i than now; and sir, I will say further that much higher credit is reflected upon those who then occupied the (ifferent sides of parties in this country than we are justiy entitled to appropriate to ourselves inr this day. I will not say that this conven tion hIas not sustained its character with more respect than is usual. It is true, some things have passed here which should not have happened; but sir, as a general thing personalities lihave prevailed less here thati is usu al in our days. In times past the contest was for some great principle, and so it always should be. In that struggle, to which I have just alluded, Alex ander flarniltod y occupie d o ne si de, and Thomas Jeffer soru and Edmud Randolph, the other; ad the soe t te imple question was, as to the constitutionalit y o f a Uniteds States Banik —and if yoil want a fair collection of the texts th at have gove rne d the Federal party and their linieal descendants ever since, you can find no place in, which they are so ingeniously wrought t ogether, as in the letter tron Mr. Hamilton, to President Washidgto upon that mewimorabl e occasion. The question, then, as in all subsequent time, was narrowea down to a single point; and that, a point of law; a pure law question. In the discussion of that question, Mr. Hamilton laid down a rule by iwhich it was to be judged whether the power was within the purview of the constitution. And, sir, that rule was broad enough, ill all conscience, to meet every claim this party might then, or at any time to come, set up. It was, would the law be general in its operation, or would it be local, That question, answered on one side, or on the other, determines the power of Congress to pass the law. If general in its operation, then Coni gress has the power; if local, then it has not. There, sir, was a legal conclusion, that was come to, with ref erenc to the entire body of that instrument, and upon that distinction, and the other distinctions urged in that great controversy, have the two great parties been divided from that day to this. I would lilke if the gentleman from Belmnont, were here, that ire would point out to me, a single marked difference b,-tween the two f arties, from that time to this, where that difference did not resolve itself intoa question of law. What is it with regard to the ques tion of Internal Improvernents? WWhat is it with re gard to the question of the Tariff? What is it with regard to the question of a United States Batik, or the right to legislate for the territories, and the baniking svitem generally, and the repealability of charters? Why, sir, there is not oine of them; not one of these differences between the two parties, that does not resolve itself into a simple question of law. What is right,. or what is wrong, what are the powers of the General Government, to engage in this, or that, or all these poli. cies, and how far that government may go, are ques-. tiens to be settled by the Constitution of the United States. And in settling these questions, eve array ourselves into parties. Then, sir, when the genltleman complains that we art dealing unjust15 with himl, and his friends, in tellinlg them they are not members of our party, because they differ with Us ill regard to a law question, that con)plaint is unlreasonable anld unjust. Itris simply by determininxg which side of this law question, these gentle-tiemen take, that we most certainly, most satisfactorily Now wtiy are men sai d to belong to this or that pear ty dthpistinguished by this or that starg oe? Merely be c ause upon exa ytination whether of their declarations or their acts, we find that t here are certain principles about which they e agree and by whic h they are govern ed in their actions. And i n a large majority of in stances if you come to apply th is test to the individual nian, you will fi nd i t to be absolu t ely necessary that yo u should look at his act s in order that you may have a reliable criterion. Now, sir, th at is all th at we ask here. We claim t he righ t of applying that test here, not only looking at th e acts of man but also t o the opinions which they entertain and pisopagate. Do men suppos e that the American people in general or the people of Ohio in partic ul ar are so ignorant an d blind as n ro t t o know as clearly and distinctl tey as they can know any fact whatever, the differences in point of principle that divi(tp the two g reat parties of the country? Sir, it is an insult to the people of the State to speak and act upon si th e hypot hesis that this is so. And sir, let me say that the men who talk here and claim oro n to t be long theo oneare cod they arecottinually acting wit h the other, and a t the same time have the effr ontery to tell the p eople of Ohio that they do be. long to the party that they are n ot act ing with, ar e i nsuiting their intell igence, and they ar e insulting us| when they compla in of us for candidly asserting our convic tion o f their true paternity. Sir, it is undoubtedly a wrong or an insult to the people to do this. It is an insult to them for a ma n t o stand up in his place here and advo cate doctrines that are a s well establis hed as any doctrine can be, and yet to say t hat they belong to that partv y w hich discards these doctrin es. This sir, I say is as greatan insult to the intelligence and undter standing of our people as an y conduct possibly can be. But sir, they cannot deceive mankind by such a course; and w hen they thus act they should remenber that it is our right to judge of their real position. It is this course of action that gives them their true position; and h aving a right to jaud ge of i t we h ave a right to speak of i t, if we do so in a respectful and proper manner. Occasionally, no doubt, in the heat of debate, w e m ay have said things which we ought not to have said; but very seldom, I hope, lha-:e I so far forgotte n w hat was due to thi s b od y as to be guilty of making remarks which could be regarded as per. stloal or offensive. And, I will now say, Mr. Presideiit, that it is not my design in the remarks I have to offe r to-day, to say any th ing that c an be cons true i into p ersonalities; but I do design uoth to-day, and for the remainder of the tim e wh ich this body may be in ses. sion,to discuss all proposit i on s which may com e before us with referenc e to t he principles and to the interests of t he p arty to wh ich I belong, with all the freedom I may desire; and I hope tha t g entlemen w ill iot think I am trespassing beyond the bounds of propriety and right, when I do so. The gentleman from Belmont complained that we were treating some of our own party unfairly and uiijustly, simply because they happened to differ with us on a *mere legal question. Now, I must sa', that considerifag the ability of that gentleman and the great intelli~:ence which he is known to possess, I was a little astonished at that declaration. Were he present in his place, I would like to refresh his mind with a fact that stanxds out clearly upon the face of the history and thle politics of the country, that there is not a question of principle dividing the parties of this country that I amr now able to recur to or remember, but resolves itself' into a legal question. Whenl the parties first started in their opposite career, it was on a question as to what the Constitution of the United States authorizedt Conlgress to do. The attempt to incorporate the United States' bank was the origin of the bitter differences 514 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-ThURSDAY, FxnRUARY 6. be obeyed because it is the supreme law of the land, and all the voices of the people of the several States cannot nullify the voice of that constitution; the rights of the smallest minority who claim protection under it, must be held secure. The unitedvoice of the people, it is true, can change it in a proper proceeding for that purpose, but whilst it remains it is the most sacred guarantee to that minority that is known to the institutions of man. It was for that purpose sir, that this constitution was framed; and I will say further, that any man who deliberately proposes to give away the rights of that minority, is fit for deeds of darkness. When the people have framed their constitution, the humblest man in the community, or the smallest minority; is entitled to the protection which it guarantees until it is changed. Sir, I have put a hypothetical case. Now, let us look at the real cause before us. I say that I am convinced that the constitution of the Uniited States does prohibit a paper currency in this country, and to submit to the people whether they will have a paper currency or not, is nothing more nor less than submitting to them whether thei will disregard that prohibition or not. Now let us see whether myself and those who entertain the same views which I entertain, or the gentleman fromn Belmont and his friends, are best supported in our views by fair and legitimate authority. I contend sir, that mwhen the constitution of the United States says, "No State shall emit bills of credit," the design was to p rohibit paper money forever from being in use under that instrument, or the government formed or restrained by it. Now let us look at the authority. The gentleman from Belmont gave his authority, and what was it? What did he adduce to show us that the term bills of credit did not mean paper money in general? Did hlie refer you to a solitary book? Did hlie cite the debates ii convention when this provision was under consideration? Did he direct your attention to the history of that day or to any work on politics or ethics to show you that it had any other meanilng? Have your politicians done this? I appeal to you, gentlemen, to say whether any of your politicilans of this day ever attempted to come up and nmeet the proposition on the po sition I now take. Do vot cite any authentic history or any responsible and:eliable work on the subject of ethics or of politics, that was written about the time of the formation of the constitution, to show that the term "bills of credit" Imean t solely, paper issued by the government? If you Ido, I must say that I have never seen any thing ofthe kind. I do not believe, sir, that it can be shown- but on the other hand I am fully convinced that the corntrary can be shown. The gentleman from Belmont gave us nothing but his own say so. Now sir, I propose to occupy the attention of the Convention but a little longer on this point, and I design to occupy it legitimately, for I am pleased to see that the Conventtion appear to be attentive. I propose to enquire, from the best authority I can findiin that day, what was the meaning attached to the term "Bills of Credit?" The first authority I cite. is Rees' E'n yclopedia, a book which, having stood the test of time, may be regarded as a book of undoubted authority. The anlt,her o that book under the title {'bill of credit," cites son first to the term "credit." Under this head, he says it is also a term applied to the currency of a country, circulating in the form of bills, Arc.* then he refers to the article lunder the head of "paper money.'} Turning to that article what do you find?? You find that it is divided into two sorts-oe issued by the government, and predicated upon -the faith of the toy determine, whethe r they belong to the democrati c par ty or not. Sir, I repeat it, amnd demand tha t it be denied if it can, with reason and sense, that this is the best test the most sensible and just, criterio n by which to judge to which party a an belongs; an d w h ile we judge and mark par ties by that criter ion, there i s less danger of doing wrong to our institutions, and less danger of get ting wrong ourselves. Sir, I felt bound to make these remarks, because of the complaints wh ich hav e been, time and aga in, ut. t ered here, against members, with whom I agree, be. cause of the severity with which we have decried those who claim to be of t he d emocratic part y while they do not, and will n ot, agree with that party, in sentiment, sympathy, or a c tion. I fmel, sir, as if our complaints were reasonable; and thos e ge nt le men have no earthly reason to utter one single murmur, in reference to any thing we have urged upon this subject, bearing upon their c ond uct, and sentimen ts as ex pressed here, and as shown by thei r actions. If we have impugned their motives, that, I will tdm rit, was g oing beyond what we ought, under ordinary circumstances, to have done but if we have simply i nsisted upon it, referring to those criterions, that they were not of us- not in truth members of our party, then we are within the legiti mat e bounds of right, and they have no ju st cause to complain: Now sir, to the ma in question arising upon the re marks of the gentleman from Belmont. That gen tleman turned upon us last ni ght with the quest ion of the constitutionalityr of a paper currency, at a time when w e all had little reason to expec t it, but as he made that subject a point i n his argument, and has s ent it forth to the wrld, for the purpose of injuring us who do not a,ree with him, it is our duty to defend ourselves in our p osition, and from that impro er attack. Sir, if that gentleman were here, I would like to ask him th is que stion as I asked the gentleman from Franikliin the other day. I would like to ask him, supposing his mind to be thoroughly convinced that ln the submission of a question of this sort to the people of the State, to be determined by them,that and their determination of the question, one way would be a violation of a constitutional provision either of our own constitution o r the constitution of the U. States, whether in suchcase he would be willing to give his vote here or anywhere else for such a proposition, namely, to subimrit to the people to say whether they will nullify the Constitution? How sir, do you think that gentleman must answer such a question? Is there a mall here who believes that the honorable gentleman from Belmont would say ~hat upon that hypothesis, he would consent to submit such a proposition to the people? No sir; he would answer as the gentleman from Franklin did, and say that he was convinced it was not unconstitutional. Well, gentlemen have a right to answer thus; still it does not come up to that charity which. ought to be evinced; for although they may be convinced of any proposition, they ought certainly to concede that gentlemen who entertain opinions the reverse of theirs, may be as thoroughly convinced of the truth of their opinions as they themselves can be. And sir, if your convic tiens3 were changed in this matter, and you wvere called upon to submit it to the people whether they would have a paper currency or not, if you believed: that if they resolved in favor of a paper currency, they would resolve agamnst a provision of the constitution of the U~nited States, would you submlit the proposition? Ngo, gentlemen; whale you occupy the positionl which ysou now occupy in this body, you would not do it;; on the contrary y7our doctrine would be that whateverthe constitution of the UJ. States says, that must. 34 515 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TiIURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6. ernment alone, the other issued by banks and( bank ers. That is paper money, as it was understood and explained, and that is lhisexplanation of the term Bill of credit, as understood in his day. The able collec tion of men who assisted him in that work, add greatly to its authority. I have not looked into McCul loch, who is an able writer on subjects of this kind, but being a more modern writer, his opinion would not be so far from a suspicion of the political influ ences which in our day, seem to be busy falsifying the solemn records of history,-, in order to support the schemes and theories by which the federal party at temnpt to protect themselves in their doctrines and practices. Still, I have no doubt but this author will be found sustaining this definition. I refer you next to Barber's history of Ma.ssachus etts. He gives an account of the mode in which bills of credit were first put into circulation, and states that it was in 1690, after the Canada war, and after stating what the Legislature of the Colony of Massa- chusetts had done, he goes on further to state, that this was the commencement of the issue and use of paper money in this country. You will find that term specifically used there. Turn then, to Hiutchinson's history of the same Colony, and you find him describing the use of paper money, fromn its commencement down to the revolution. It is sometimes said to have been issued by private associations, or bodies corporate; and when he speaks of money issued in this way, he calls them "bills of credit." Gentlemen need not take my "say so," my word for it, but they can examine it for themselves. Thei will find that the first paper money issued by a private company was issued by the "Land bank of Boston;" and he tells you that they issued a hundred and fifty thousand pounds of these "bills of credit." Now I refer you -to Bollrnan's history- of Pennsylvania, and Bausman's history of Maryland where you will find that this term is at all times used, as synonymous with "paper money." If any thing can fix the meaning of a term, so that that meaning shall be stable and reliable, and so that you can with confidence, assert that the term means a certain thing, it is the long and uniform use that has been made of that term. By tracing down these histories you will find that the term "bills of credit,"is used again and again; but it is always used as synonymous with "paper money;" and I have shownla you, that that crediitable and reliable author, Rees, in his Encyclopedia, gives to this kind of a currency, the distinction above inentioiied-paper money issued by bankers, and paper money issued by a government. I have shown you sir, that in the histories of this government, where this term had its application and use, it is used indiscriminately, to signify the issues of banks, and the issues of paper by governments. The simple question was: "Is it a thing designed to circulate as monev?" and not "does it rest simply upon the credit of government." - Now sir, I feel that I might with great propriety, stop here; but I have a much higher author than any {I have yet cited. It is not the authority of any obscure man; it is not the authority of even one great and distinguished man, but it is the authority of several men whose names have been made immortal, men that are distinguished for all the endow men t s and mental attainments that can distinguish men any where; it is the opinion of the men who framed the Instru~ment we are,I hope, anxiously,earnestly, and sincerely seeking the true meaning of. To these men I refer you, for an exzplanlation of the meaning of that term, . as it is used in that instrument. Sir, I am sincerely desirous of ascertaininlg the true meaning of this term) as it isused in that great instrument; adi ind if I find that the mean ing which I claim for it, is not justly and truly supported by good author it y, aco then I w i abandon the position I have taken in reference to it. And revers hag the case, I ask of gentlemen on the other side to do the same. If the y c an not support the p osition they have taken by the authority to which I have alluded, then I ask of them, whether in all hone sty, they ought not to abandon that posit ion, and come forth fearlessly in behalf of the truth, let it s trike down what party it may. Gentlemen we are all American citizens, and I trust that -when all of us are gone, our government and our example will continue to be a blessing to mankind. The men who will disregard party and advocate the truth, eveel though they Save to abandon party connection and party dogmas, to stand in the face of party prejudice, will be the men who will hereafter be Cloked upon as patriots, as friends of the country and benefactors to mankind. Then gentlemen, let us look with earnestness into the proceedings of these mren who framed that instrument. and see what they said as to its true meaning, The first extract to which I call your attention, is to be found on page 1343, of the 3rd Volume of the Madlsoll papers. When the Constitution was first drafted, it declared that Congress should have the power to coin money and emit bills of credit. The absolute prohibition to the States to issue bills of credit was not contained in it then, but it contained the proposition to give to Congress the right to issue bills of credit. Now, according to the position assumed by the ingenious gentleman from Belmont, if they had only retained that expression to "emit bills of credit," it would have settled the question, He says that because Congress has reserved to itself, the power to coin money, a state cannot confer that power upon any body else. By the same course of argument, it would fo llow that had they retained the express power to emit bills of credit, the States would not have had it. That however, is not to the ques tion. The question before the convention at the time, -was this: Governeur Morris moved to strike lout "andemit bills on the credit of the United States." Mr. Mason said, "though he had a mortal hatred to paper money, yet, as he could not foresee all emergenicies, he was unwilling to tie the hands of the Legislature Mr. Mercer said he "was a friend to pa-per mnoney though in the present state and temper of America, he should neither propose nor approve of such a measure. It was impolitic, also, to excite the opposition of all those who were friends to paper money. These are some of the remarks of Mr. Mercer, one of the most enlightened and able of the metal of that, body. Now gentlemen, I ask you to tell me, just at that period, what kind of paper money had any friends in America. I want you to come up as men, and answer that question. What kind of paper moiney had any credit at that time at all. Was it your (Tontinental money? No sir. No saneman would hazard his reputation by asserting anything of the kind. Was there any state paper money il credit? No sir; there was no state in the Union that had much out; blut sir, it was the paper money of the Massachusetts Bank of Boston, the hank of N~ew York, and tale paper of the old bank of North America, at Philadelphia, which had been chartered since 1782, and had flooded the country with their paper. That was the only kind of paper money thathad friends, or credit in the United States, and I ask any mnanto stand up on this floor, and show me a particle of history I 516 OHIO Cf'ONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6. 517 to authorize him in declaring that there was any paper maoney issued by the government, which was in credit. The only paper money then, which had credit in America,was the money of the three banks which I have named, and these three banks were the instrumentalities by which t he wor st princi ples of human nature were roused, on be half of this most artful and i nsidio u s of all schemes for fertilizing the ritch Ian's f ield s by the swe at of the poor man's brow. And this sir, is the paper money, which Mr. Merer, r efe rs to, when he says that it would excite the oppositiodI of all thos e who were opposed to putting a s top to the circulation of pap er money. Sir, all efforts to issue Isaper money by government, had lo ng go ne into discredit, an d a t that time, your c ontinental trumonrey was selling at more than five hundred dollars for one. Thi s kind of mon ey then had no friends in Anmerica. Bot sir, other projects for paper money had friends, and ardent friends at th ats ve ry tio e, and these pro;ects were R]anks of issue. Wh at was on e of those experiments that had just boe en made, a nd ou t of,whiche the people of the State of Pennsyivantia had just come with great exciteme nt, and tn regard t o which, the two griat parties of the oun - try were most bitterly arrayed ag ains t each other? It was, by the old ba nk of North A mera. That, sir, is oe -of the experim ent s which he had in his mind, and with which thre people of the entire countr y had betome disgusted and which they considered to be an atteta pt to speculate upon the money of the government tby a set of men who had no m ore right t o it th an you or I have to dav. But again, "Mr. Ellsworth thought this a favorable mome.nt to shut Mar bar the door a tgainst pap er money. The nwischiefs of the t w"ariouepr etbs experiments which had e hn madec were now fresh in the public mind, and had excited thoe d isgus t ofall t he respectable part of America. Now, sIr, what rtriousetperiments had been made by the peopleof thiis country, the mischiefs of which were se fresh in their mindst Why, sir, clearly bank projects as well as government projects. "Mnr. Randolph notwithstanding his antipathy to gaper t,enep could not agree to strike out the words." ",4r. Wilson. It will have a most salutary inIluence on the credit of the United States to remove the po;ssibi!ity of I aper mnoney." Here. si-., are the opinions of these -men as to the true imttport and meaning of this term "bill of credit," at tale time it was inserted, where we now find it in our co nstitu tion. Now, I ask the attention of the members of the convention to another fact in close connection with this; and that is to examine the petitions presented by the people of Penn.i!vania, praying a repeat of the charter of the bank of North America, and then say whether tihere is; not good ground for asserting as these men did, that this experiment could tlever succeed while these mnisch.eefs were remiiembered. The mischiefs complained of are truly as;onishitig; so muchl so that they are almtost incredible. The charges brought against that ban'k by the people of Pennsylvania when it was not men re than three years old, were suach that in spite of a most powerful opposition, Headed by the wealth of Philadelphia, the Legislature of the Stale dud repeal that charter. Now I ask the attention of the convention to that part of these proceedings where this question again recurs, as to what is the meaning of this term "bills of credit." It will be found on page 1449. tHere is a new authority and one of no small weight either: "Mfr. Wilson and Mr. Sherman moved to insert after the words "coin money" the words "snor emit -bills of credit nor make any thing but gold and salver coins tender in paymeat, of debts."' "Mr. Gorham thought the purpose would be as well secured by the provision of Article 13; whereas an absoluteprohibition ofpaper money would rouse the most desperate opposition of its partisans." Now, sir, I wbsh some gentleman here would be good enough to tell me where were the partisans ofcontinental money or its kindred State government money whose desperate opposition was to be aroused by this clause being inserted. Gentlemen, it is trifling with us, trtfling with your own reputation, and character as candid men, to assume such utterly untenable ground. No man in his senses but knows that in that day neither continental money nor any other government paper mioney had what could with the least propriety be called a partisan, much less partisans whose desperate opposition would be aroused. No, sir, it was the three banks above named whose prolific resources for profit and speculation with money had just been discovered by the wealthy men in this country, which had their partisans who would raise a desperate opposition. And the remarks of Mr. Sherman which here immediately follows shows satisfatorily that this was the understanding ofthis remark of Mr. Gorham. ,, Mr. Sherman thought this a favorable crisis for crushing paper money. If the consent of the legislature could auithoriseemissions o f it, the friends of paper moiiey would make every exertion to get into the legislaturein order to license it." Now, sir, who can doubt in his sober moments, that these men had in their minds a paper money like our own, in this day, authorised in its emission by acts of the Legislature. "Licensed" by them as Mr. Sherman has said. Now I have shown what was said by the members of the Convention, who framiei this Constitution, the meaning of whichl we are here seeking after; and sir if contemporaneous construction and the use of language clear, well settled and unequivocal,are of any value iln ascertaining what the real and true construction of any written instrument ought to be, there certainly can be no doubt as to what was the meaning of these words at the tinme they were used il our Constitution; and that this object was to put an end to the circulation and use of paper money in this country. Then sir, if that be so, the bank charters authorizing the issue and circulation of these bills of credit, here so uniformly called paper money, are all wrong and in violation of the Constitution of the United States. Sir, if they are not so, then I am unable to say whkat',ie meaning of any clause of this instrument is, after the men who adopted the term are dead and gone, so that I cannot recur to them to consult them as to what they did mean. Si-r, I maintain that if there is a single expression in the Constitution of the United Stat es better sett le d than another, froin the circumstance s surroind ing,it s adoption, it is the expression we are now considering and commenting upon, and that this was designed,,to mean paper money. How then can I, if I am sincere il my opinion, as to what this instrument was designed to mean in this respect, support any proposition that would thus directly contravene my settled conviction in regard to this matter? Sir, the profoundest conviction of my mind is, that the design of the Constitution of the Unlited States, was to secure to Us a gold and sil. ver currency, in order that the people might be protected from the ruinous consequencees of paper motley, somne of thre saddest experiments of the evils of which had been made ia all its varied forms but a very short time before, But sir, one authority more, and I have donte. It shall be that of Mr. Madison —a statesman whose acknowledged ability and whose long life anc large expe OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TijURnsTAY, F.ElBR.UA~ 6. political gammoning and clap trap. Shnme upon you, federalists, one aid all. (Laughter.) it is a dis grace to you, one and all, thus to attempt to meet the arguments of your inanlyand open adversaries, who meet you as we are now endeavoring to-nmet you, with,calm and legitimia-te reasoninig. Mr. CHAMBEKS. I beg to state to the gentleman from Knox, that I have always' been a foll.Iwer of Thomas Jefferson, eveni fromi ny, yo~utl up. Mr. M~'I'CHFLL. The gentleman from Moslemi.-. gunm hiad better saved his credlit by wi.iihholdiiig that as Rortiosl upon this floor, and lai the preseice of this hady and of his Creatur. He a lollower of T homas Jteffeir eeon, after the lile hao sas spenit and tire v'ete& he hla given; 8hame upon sta tonguie tha-t wol,>,d- say so mrir, I regret to speak thas of venriable and hoary headed men, bot the gentleman has iatergfered with me, and I could hardly, with decent respect to the eu,ae of truth and propriety, suffer ltiim to escape. Y6s, sir, I reiterate that for him to assert here that hl is a follow. er of Thomas.effcraoi,, while.he repuiitttes every doer — trine which he held and practiced, fo: him to say here, trhat, after Imyis, he is a lollewer of T'homas Jeilersoib auid Edmoad Raudolph, wi,ile lie follows, step by step, in the tracks of tleir greatest and mos ma~iestic advcr sary, Alexander liamiltco, issuch mi insult to &he peo plsj of Ouiio a-id to the character of this body,'ss ought ciot to be tolerated with impaiiity. Jse a tollower 0, 'Thonmas Jefiersoid' Sir, lie is$ too well known here. Year alter yea-T he haus iime his ntark on the Joarual~ oof your State.'I'liose ibaykt are there, air, and youl Ican taae his counre and tiie'trines, as they ate there ia black and white, atid thtee of Mr. Jefberse,n also in black tand white, and compare theiim, and then say whethrot, truly belura God and man, that gentleman cans say, and be innoteint, that lie is a lellwer of'T'lt.at Jefferson. Sir, there are, no doubt, hunmdyeda of meni born cf worthy pareitt, who were since-ely attached le, the doctrines of Thomias Jefifeson; but those payeote were so uiifo,,tu,-ale as to, give, brrlh to, prodt~htdre who did not feel altogether at home with Ltk htmI le democracy of the counitry, bait imagined it t, be smet, respectable to associate themselves with that party call, didg themselves the decency part>, which lia. ever do..%pised, deaimled, minse-presenited and trad,,asd, the demi-i ocracy. But, sir, the priticwi-ples of Thomas Jeffersot are not to be mistakeii —pecially iii regard to this question, and the question of a paper currency;, andl lio r that gentleman, tierefore, to way Ithat he is, a iollow-. er of Thioomas Jefferson, while his- wl,ale public lile is in direct opposition to hin on this and a1l other wu~eet I can now think of, Ss an ortrage which deserves to be, characterized, just a* I have donie. Perhapo a little sts heat might have sugicd. [Laaghter.1 I am siow through with that gentleman and his interruptioii a eh oiat, sir, is all I design to say in relation to thik questio n of the constitutionality of paper money;. and I have now consumed so much tikme that I feel as though it would be trespassing too mach upon the time of the Conveatiots to proceed with the diseassion of tws, other points to which I had designed to draw their attention. Trusting, and insisting that I have sufficiently who eredetrmied hento avea Uite Sttesshown that I; and those who act with ine, many very Bank;he sbmited rther han o wht fe menwell believe that the propostiS~on to ask the people off woul hae dne,namly- to avea fghtforit,andOhio to adopt, a paper currency,would, be such an out~ an ecitmenttha wouci aveconvlse thecoutryrage on the rights of the people as no launest man would man,GenralJacsonexcptedwhowoud hve one I now come to the great question.before as, th othewis thn h di. Sr, s i tobe onsderd aquestion of repelil. I feel that I can~not devote the haveof he tue eanig o ths saredinstnrnnt,tance, and the intense interest it has excited here and tha Mr Maisos cmmitedan rro one i hi lie?throughout the State and the entire ~ountry, dleman& Oh, ham upn yur isgstin suteruge, yur.of us a full examination. This I have not now the tienpe, must give weight to any opinion he may enter tain on t h is or kindred subjects. His opinion in regard to tlhis matter we have at length in the forty-fourth inumber of the Fede ralist. I have not the book before me, but I am well satisfied that the extract as I have it, is correctly given r. Mn adison c ommenting on this Irt of the Constitution, an d referrigg tt t he motioa of r. Sherm a n, says: "This prohibition must give pleasure to every citizen, in proportion -to gis love of justice coad knowledge of it the b springs of public prosperity. The loss wdich Anmerica has sustainyedo, sii,c e the peace, from the pestilent effcths of PA PER MONEY, on the necessar y confidence between m, rrt and ,jn,,i; on the necessary co,tfidence i,, the public councils; on the i "dustry of the people, and on the cha7-acter of the Rel~ublican Gover,nment, constitutes an enormous debt against the States, chargeable with th:9 unadvised measure, which must long remain unsatisfied; or rather an accumulation of GUrLT which can be expiated no otherwise th a n by a vol untary sacrifi ce on t he al tar of justice, to Ttiz towsgr wr inCpo HAXS BEEN THE INSTRUMENT OIF IT. In additiona to these persuasive considerations, it may be observed; that the same )easons which show the necessity of denying to the 15tateff the power of regulating coin. prove with equal force, that th~ey ought noltet be at liberty TO SUBSTITUTE A PAPER MEDIUM INSTEAD OF COIN. Had every State a right to regulate the value of its coin, there might be as -any currencies as States4, and thus the intercourse among them would be impeded. Retrospective alterations in ita value might be made, and thus the citizens of other States be injured, andl animosities be kindled among the States t.hemselves. The subject of foreign powers might suffer from the same cause, and hence the Uiii.. be di'scredited,-and embroiled by the in. discretion of a single member. N~o o,,e of these mischieyi less incident to a power in the States to emit paper money, than to coin gold and silver." Now, it muitst be remembered that this paper was, written imimediatel y after the presentation of that instrumelut to the people, for their adoption, and whil-e .its framers were enideavoring,, to enlighten them as to, its true nature. and import, in order that they mighit ,say whether they would adopt that instrument or niot. 'These were the circumstances under which that paper wvas written. M~r. CHAMBERS. Will the gentlemani from Knbx allow me to ask- hiim a question,? MIr. MITCHELL. Certainly. Mdr. CHA MBERS. After all the opposition alleged to have beeni made by MAr. Madison to any circulation of paper money, (lid he not afterwards sign a charter to the United States Bank? ,Ilr'..MITCHIELL. Sir, that is such an u-nwo;,rth y and disingenuous kind of question —such miiserable, gammioninig subterfuge —as th at venerable gentlem-Aan, with his grey hairs bloomindg upon hiim, ought to be a~shamiied to resort to. It. is, sir, -nothing but the dis gutinig clap-trap of the politician. What of it, if 3I.Madisonl did sign suchi a charter? What of it, if he, did commit one error in his life? Are you, sir, or ainy of us. infallible? Is there, one gentleman h-ere who is willing to see the institutions of our country overthrown and destroyed, merely because a great man has once chianged hiis opi-niomis?:No, sir. The opinion read from the Federalist is Mr. Madison's deliberate- opiinion —an~ opinion giving what he regarded as the true mieaniing of' tha-t inistrum-.en~t immediately after its first publication..What of it, then, if, after being, overborne by a majority of two-thirds of your oDwn friends, the Federalists, and their allies, in A816, 518 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6. time to give it; still, I must beg the attention of the Convention while I, as briefly possible, advert to it First, then, as to these gentlemen claiming to be on our sie of the house who differ with us. The other day I said they were unwilling to adopt this provision. unless it were encumbered with some provisions rendering it entirely useless. I shall not press this question much at this time, but will only call attentioit to the facts, showing the correctness of my former positian. Among these stands prom inent, this: that when it was suggested that it wlould take from cerporations the means of collecting debts. take from them their property, real and personal, and also deprive tkere of, other privileges which no one denied they haA a right to enjoy, we proposed an amendment designed to meet that objection. But this was voted down by them. We then amended it, little by little, until we supposed we had it ready to meet all their okjections, some of which I considered just and proper. Bu t [l of no avail. I did not, it is true, consider it necessary to insert any provision in lhe constitution in regard to these matters, for I Sir, there ix not a doubt about it, and all that we have to ascertain is —is that definition right or is wrong? If it be right, then every description of p per) that circulates as money is embraced within hiibitioni, that "No State shall issue bills of credit." I now give you, the opinion of the court, and I ask the attention of the convention to it, because it throws great light upon the true construction of this constitu. tional phrase. And whose opinion, is it, sir? It is the opinion of the majority of the court, delivered by Chief Justice Marshtall, himself. And what does he say? The clause of the constitution, which was said to have been violated, is in these words: -,No State shall emit bills of credit." What is a "bill of credit?" What did the constitu tion mean to forbid. This is the great inquiry we have to make, in this discussion. I read from the decision: "Inl its enlargedl, anid perhaps its literal sense, the term btill of credit mray,poilrelieind ally inistrtimenit, by which a state engag(s to) pay imoney at a f,t tire day, thts iilcliding a certificat e for money 1i)0 rowed. But the lIanuane of thie constitution itself, and the mischief to l)e prevented, w lieh we know flora the his tory of the country, equa!ly limit the interpretation of the termsns. The word'elit" is l-ever ettp!oyed in describing those coiit,'a(cts lby which a State bin,ds itseif to pay miloney at a future day fitr services actually received, or for mnoney borrowed for present %Ise; nor are i]istrnilieits executed for such purposes. in coition language, ldenioiniinateil "li1s of credit." To'iemit bills of credit" conve(ys to alie iiitid the i dea of tissuing paper igtendedx to circulate through the comiuiniiiiity for its ordinary purposes, as nioney, which paper is redeenialble at a future day. Tlls is the sense in which the terms have always treeu understood. At a very early period in our colonial history, the attempt to supply the waant of the precious metals by a paper medium was trade to a considraltle extent; ai,td the lii'!s emitted for tiis puir pose have trees frequenitly (denioniiiated trills of credit. During the war of the Revolutioni we were driven to this expedient, and necessity cormpele(,d us to use it to a most fearful extent. The terii has acqu ired at appropriate meaning; an,d'"bil!s of credit" signifying a plaper iiiedlitu, intended to circulate between iidivit tias and I)etween governments and indiividua's, for the ordinary purposes of society. Suicih a m-ieditt te has liee,, always liable to considerab!e f11icluatioii. Its value is colitiniuially changing; and these cliang,es often great and Fuddeni, expose individuals to iim - msense loss, are the sources of ruijotis speculation, and destroy all confidenc e betweent mian and miiani. To out up this mischief by the roots, a mischief Awhichl was felt tihioughout the United States, and wilth deeplyv afcted the interest at d prosperity of all; Mr prdet, h the people declared i their cstittion, that no state should emit bills of credit. If the prohilition tmeaeis any thinso,, if tile words are not eiipty sounds it must comprehend the emission of any paper i itmediuiti by a State government, for the purpose of 0oInitllon ciircu la.ion." He declared th e doctrine u po n this case, as I have r ea d it, and the court decided that the issue of these "certificates," by tle State o f Mi ssouri, was unconsti. tutional. Three of the judges dissented from this de cision-and I shall probably have occasion hereafter to refer to the reasons of their dissent. N ow, Mr. President, here is the case, in which Chief Justice Marshall himself, gives a d efinition of t he term s which is claimed to be a correct definition, by those who advocate and support the first section of the report of the committee on this subject. No qualifications, whatever, are annexed to his defi nition. "Any paper money intended to pass in the community, as a circulating medium, is a bill of credit." That is his language; that is the language of the major ity of the court in that instance-and one of the judges who dissented from him in the delivery of that decis ion, comes out clearly and strongly with the declara tion, that if the opiniion of Chief Justice Marshall, be right, all the notes of banks, directly under the control of a State, or established by its authority, are within th e prohibition, and unconstitutional. But I will refer to that hereafter. The next case is that of Briscoe against the Bank of the Comimonwealth of Kentucky. The Salae of Kentucky incorporated a Bank; and it is necessary to read one or two of the provisions of that article of incorporation, in order that the case should be properly understood. The first section of tile act declares: "That the bank shall be established ill the namne and beh~alfw of the State of Kentuceky &e. 'The secondl section eniacts that the President al/d Directors .ehall be a corp~orationl, capable o~f suetug and being sued, &c. 528 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FiRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7. and here is the controversy. It all hangs upon the Thus it is shown that this term was used in conconstruction of this constitutional phrase "Bills of nection with bank notes- that it was used in the earCredit." I wish it to be observed, that when this last ly charters, and that it applies, as well to this species decision was made, Chief Justice Marshall had left of paper as to any other species of paper. Although the bench, and Justice Story remained. He was up- there is much more that is interesting in this book on on the benchll I believe, when the decision was made this question, I do not design to read more from it at in the former case, antd also when it was made in this present; but let me sa that Justice Story takes up case, and he comes forward as one of the judges of this inquiry as to what is meant by a bill of credit in that court and gives his opinion. Mr. Justice Story the right way and in the right direction' He invesdissents IN TOTO from Justice McLean and those who tigates its history as connected with the Colonies concurred with him, and it is to a part of his opinion with Congress, with the Confederacy, and with Banks upon the phrase in dispute, that I ask the attention across the water and elsewhere, and comes to the conof this Convention. Here, I repeat it, is the great elusion, beyond all doubt, that bank bills are bills of contest, what is meant by "Bills of Credit." Here is credit within the meaniing of the Constitution of the where the judges seem to pause and labor in their United States. Bank bills at that time were called opinions; and as they determined this question they bills of credit. Every thing was a "bill of credit" appear to have decided upon the constitutionality of that was intended to circulate in the community as what was submitted to them in connection with it. currency or money. That was the signification, in Justice Story, dissenting, says- which it was known, and no matter in what form it "The first qiestionl Niaturally arising ai the case is, what is lhe was issued, no matter if there was no fund pledged trte inter pretatiol of tie clause of the ionstitutionii that "no state for its redemption-none of these things entered into shall em~it ilsot' ci-ed,it."I other wo,r-ds what isa hill ofecredit, shall emit bils ofcredit." otherwords what is a bill of credithe signification of the term; for these "bills of credin the sense o e cstttiol? Aften she decision of Craigv thes the State of Missouri I had iot supposed that this was a mniatter it" were issued in every possible form. They were whiz'll could! e l o' ii1o conltestat on; at least, unless the au- issued upon credit; they were issued payable on dethority of that case was to be overturned. aid the court were to' mand; they were issued with security, and they were h.e set. ad,'ift fromi, its f"mrooin."-egoes on to quote the dsefitis s ds if ii ta t Han as: *on issued without security; they were issued upon the definitimls and what was.sai in that ca~e, and adds: -'One would suppose ttlis.aiguae ws sutiey ei.ite,to remove all ps.e faithl of colonies, and they were issued upon funds silie dotilt ulpoii the sl'ject atid it has the nrore weight. lbecause provided for their redemption; they were issued in it cale fromi on(. who was himiself an actor in the very times, every possible form, tha t human ingenuity could dewhen is of c!edit stivltel the currency of the whole corn- er whyanl thsex eulce wlsI' h(~ e ol,~ vise, having no one common quality but the single try; and, whose experience juistified,t him in the exposition." ty whAga in h e saypts: o one, that they circulated in the community as mon "If hwe snv eeanin of the p,hrasea itis found i. the e and it is by that you know them, and by nothing "If we look into'he meanin!! of the phbrasea.4 it is fou-nd in the B,'itish a ws, Of il or owl laws, as a i'pical le to the col cerns of, else ]:I How then do we stand upon this question? ] plrivate indiviililas, -r private co,p o,-aliois, we shall find there is admit, Mr. President, that in the case from which I no iystery a!l(mltt ie lmatter; anld that wihen bills of creiit are last read Mr. Justice McLean seems to qualif and spoXken of,'the wfords moea,~, 1lezociabt)e rpaper, intendled to p,,ss as i'' e * Y sirrenotcyi w money,'yd eliver y or endrseme nt. In thp sense X limit the definition given by Chief Justice Marshall curretiry 0, ih)ojnie, 1-y deliv,ery or eiidor ei-c.nt. In tit s sense, tobod. le ulokito that matter and a'l ba, notes, ora s the nore'omnmoi phrase is, bank bil s are as being to o broad. et us look into that matter and bill ofcre-l. see whom we shall trust. Who was Chef Justice Again in the consideration of this question, I will Marshall? and was he or was he not qualified to incall the attention of the Conventioni to another clause. stitute an iniquiry as to the meaning of the term? I This is Justice Storyv who is speaking:s This is Justice Story wrho is speaking: propose to institute no comparison between that gen "It cofirrao! of w liat I lave aeal stated, it may te re- tleiia and the o ther I have mentioned. The first in marked that in the charter o thie Ian! of Etlgland, in 5th and 6th his day, stood first, the latter, now, I am willing to William alid Ma: v al expless rvisiot is made, Iy which the admit is equally eminent; but I think there is no i'll, or Iilt o!,l;a ory, nd of: ei, of the Ibatik, are declared to one wh be at'stiiiab e uti n~e~q~n"8lulf CStrite x preesaik |one who will not say, that the opinions of the former be a-ssina'c ba,d(],ego~a!a~.e. S8,:::ar exp~ressions arete befounaloi iti maly ants of the Aeia) s is orpi'rating sas oron this subject, are entitled to quite as much weight b&s been abulidantly snow iii the citatis at the bar " as those of the latter. Aye, Mr. President, I must go What is the diffr e eteen a bill of exchan further, and say that as between these two eminent What is the dilff rence between a bill of exchang e Judges, we are called upon by all the circumstances and a bank bill? Thib has been dec ided long befor e of the case, to take the definition given by Chief Justhe quest ion a ros e in this c ountry. Lord Mansfield rice Marshall in preference to that given by Mr. Jusmade the distiucl ion lorg:igo, and there is no doubt tice McLean. They are both men of undoubted abilithat the term "Bill of Credit" was as well understood at the time the constitution was framed, as the term ty but it must be remembered that Chief Justice Mar "haeas cor " or an other rase, which we fid shall was a contemporary of the very times when all ,,habeas corpus or any other pl rase, which we ings took place. He saw for himself what in the constitution. Lord Matisfield, speaking on the twas going on he heard fo r himself what was said. subjec of bnk noes orbillssays:was going on; he heard for himself what was said. subject of bank notes or bills says: He was not idle that he did not see, he was not care "That these titos are iot like hii Is of exchange, mere securities less that he did not distinguish and he comes fror documents for delnt, aid a-e not so esteemed; but are treated asles1 3,adgvsis,dfntdofablo uomley &c., y the ienerart (aOT:rt(,"t if miankind; and on pavment ward i 1830, and gives his definition of a bill of of tiem, whenever a reipt isreq.iied, the receipts are always credit. How isit with Mr. Justice McLean given, as for montey, not as foe rsecril ies or notes. And indeed, He was not contemporaneous with these times. I so much ae-etheytiteatedas money. lhat they passibyawill,which have no doubt lie examined this subject well; but I canbequeaths the testao r's cash, or iron1ev, or property." no t h e bay thi ste ll e I Now Mt. Pies dertt I say thi,and I believe I will not help but say, that Chief Justice Mtrshall is the be borne ot bv the true histoy of thisd question, that man, to whom we should look for a correct definition be brneoutby te tue istoy o ths qustin, hatof this term. the term Bill of Credit received its signification in the first instance, in its connection with a bank bill, and But sir. I do not stop here. I have another juristthat in the acts incornorating banks in early timnes, the one who is worthy of all eulogy-i mean Justice Story; very bank notes themselves were called "Bills of and he too, labored upon this question, as upon examiCredit," and the phrase as applied to the issues of nation of his commentaries will abundantly appear. the Colonies is borrowed. What are the issues of He searched itout; he lookedintotheactionofCongress banks in the present dy? In form a promissory note. and the confederacy; he looked into bank charters home We call them "bank notes" or "bank bills," and by and abroad, and he brings the conclusion home to evway of abbreviation, we have dropped the two words ery man, that the definition given by himself and Chief "of credit." Juztice Marshall, was the true definition, and the only 529 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7. one, that was entertained at the time the phrase was iig used as a circulating mteditum or substitute for money, makes these certificates bills of cred.t, I,aik notes are rorne emphaticaliy put into the Constitution. Now I submit to gentle- such. And not oily the notes of banks directly iunder the control mnen-and remember that these are all whig jurists- and illlanagelmlent or a State, but all iotes of bainks establishe d whose definition shall we take-the definition given by under the authority of tile State, must fall within thie prohii tnon. For the States cannot certai~ily do Ithat indirectly, which Chief Justice Marshall, the first jurist of the counitry, a ton. For tie Sates canndot certaiily do that lsdirertl, which they cannot do directly. And if they canlnot issue bank notes, definition which is confirmed and fortified by J ustice because they are iills of credit. &e. He dissetits on titsg round Story, or the definition of Justice McLean. I'his is a and deities that the certificates are bills of credit." fair question to put in pursuing this inquiry. I cannot Here, Mr. Presidenit, upon the question whether a surrender the opinioln of the two first natmned gentlemen, charter of incorporation, authorized by the Legislature for I have not in my mind the shadow of a doubt, that to issue bills of credit, is constitutional in that par Chief Justice Marshall was right,- and that Justice ticular, we have these judges, or one of them at least, Story was right in reiterating that definition, after in dissenting from Chief Justice Marshall, admittiny Chief Justice M!arshall had passed from the stage of and urning, that if the definition which he had given life. of a bill of credit were correct, then it followed, as I stand then, Mr. President, in this position. I say an irresistible consequence, that all bank notes issued that a bank bill is a "bill of credit." I say it upon the by the State, directly, or by authority of the State, authority of all history; I say it upon the authority of were unconstitutional. those eminent whig jurists; 1 say it upon the authority Mr. President, I wish to dwell a little longer on this of the federal court; I say it sir, uponI all the authority case. Here was the first case-the most important there is on this subject, that a banki bill is a bill of case presented in any form to the Supreme Court of credit, within the signification that was given to that the United States. Here was Justice Thompson de term in the Coustitution of the Itnited States, and I beg claring, that if the definition of Chief Justice Mar to repeat, again, that in the very charters of banks, shall was right, then bank note issues were unconsti they were so called, here and elsewhere; that this was tutional. We have aright to suppose that this ques s80, at the time the constitution was framed. With this tion was canvassed and turned over, and considered established, I come to another branch of the question. and reconsidered by these Judges, in their consulta "No State shall emit bills of credit." Here is one de- tions upon the case; and it was so beyond all doubt. cisioni, in the Missouri case, as to the meaning of the And yet, when we look to the decision of Chief Jus whole phrase, a decision declaring in a certain case, tice Marshall, made up with great care, although, as where a State had undertaken to issue these bills of we have a right to presume, this view was pressed credit, (and that too in a form much less objectionable upon him by Mr. Justice Thompson, he says nothing than in the case of a bank issuing notes,) that it was about it-does not intimate it would be otherwise unconstitutional. Is there any member of the Consti- but comes boldly up to the issue, and affirmed the tion who will contend, that it the State in her own law to be unconstitutional. name, and in her own behalf, and upon her own faith, But, sir, I have not done with this question yet. should undertake to issue bank bills, it would not be We come now to the second case, and how do we fd unconstitutional? I understand the gentleman from it? It.is worthy of observation, and it is a proper Belmont, [Mr. KENNON,] clearly to make the admission fact to state in this Convention, in ascertaining the that it would be unconstitutional. That gentleman true weight of this decision, that Chief Justice Maradmitted it, and I have not yet heard the first person shall was upon the benc wenn ttis case was first ar who denies it. "No State shall emit bills of credit"-I gued; that he heard all the a ments which were bank bills I have shown, are "bills of credit-therefore presented to the Court-that he had all the facts beno State shall emit bank bills. fore him, and formed his own opinion. In this case Now we come a little further, and without reading in 11 Peters, in whichMr. Justice McLean delivers it from the books, I will fall back again upon the case the decision, it is a singular fact, that Chief Justice of Craig, against the State of Missouri. Whet that Marshall had considered this case maturely; and it of~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ urthrasin, uagacnt, thetate wh ileori henlvd tatmjr case was up for consideration, Chief Justice Marshall is further a singular fact, that while he lived, a majorcame out boldly and declared that the bills of credit is- ity of the Court had come to the conclusion, that this sued by the State of Missouri were an unconstitutional very State Bank charter was unconstitutional. Sir, issue. From that opinion Justices'hlompson aid I do not speaklwithott authority upon this subject. Johnson dissented, and I beg to be allowed to read a Let us hear the dissenting opinion of Justice Story little from theirdissenting opinions. Justice Johnson to this point: s~~~~~~~~ays; Hyph,~"Wien thil case was formerly argued before this court, a ma says: jority of the judges, who then heard it, were decidedly of the ,The whole history and legislation of the time, prove that opinlion, that the act of Kentucky establishing this bank, waes unby bills of oredit, the powers of the Constitution meant pa- constitutional and voed; as atiounititipg to an authority to emit per money, with reference to that which had been used in the bills of credit for a,id on behalf of the State, within the proihifitates from the conmmencement of the century, down to the tioni of the Utiited States. Iii principle, it was thought to be detime whaen it ceasedt to pass, before reduced to its innate cided ly the case of Craig vs. thie State of Missoiiii. Antongthat worthlessness." inaj)rity was the late ChiefJustice Marshall. The case has been Again-'-T'he great end and object of this restriction on the again argued, and precisely upon tile sante grounds, as at the power of the States, will furnish the best definition of the formnier argument. A mnaj)rity of toy lbrethrei tlave nlow proterms under consideration The whole was intended to ex- noitieed the act of KentucKy to be constitutional." lude EVERYTINGt frrom use as circulating ntedtum, except We know one thing from this dissenting opinien. gold and silver; and to give to the United States the exclusive control over the coining and valuing of the tnetalic medu e know i n the first place, that chief juti Mar That the real dollar may represent property, and not the shall, was prepared to declare an o)inion in this case. shadow of it." We know what opinion he declared in the case of Craig Justice Thompson dissented also, and I call the's. the State of Missouri; and that he had expressed an attention of the Convention to some of the lan,guage opinion that the charter of the bank of Kentucky was in which he dissented. The reason~which he unconstitutional. Here is a State bank; hle thought i which he diss eig nted. The reasonwhich he assigi- that unconstitutional. There a State undertakes to ed, throws some light upon the inquiry which we are issue bills of credit in another form and he declares now making. He says: "If tiese certificates are hills of credit Itihibied by the conch that issue also to be unconstitutional. But he dies, the tution, it appears to tue ditficult te escape the conolusion, that all court is changed and we get upon the samne argument bank no,tes, issued by the States or under their authority and per- and the satne facts a directly different opinion. Sir, tlmissiont are ilse of credit falling within the p:ohlibition. Tthey this is not a case on which I would rely to determine are certaittly. in ipoxint of forut, as utuch bills of credit, and if be- a question of such importance as this. 530 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRInAY, FEBRUARY 7. d General Government; and then the further proposition s is made, that individuals have a "natural, inihetett, and inalienable" right, to make paper money t any amount they please. That is the argument,nd there is a great deal of ingenuity in it. e But. sir, it will not stand the test. I am not:pres pared to admit, that individuals have the right to isY sue paper money. One thing is certain, that long ago, e in every age and country, this subject of the currency - has been considered and treated as excusively be longing to government. They have regulated itD they have claimed it, as belonging to their ver eignty. - In reply to this argument, let us look at tkIe tre t state of the case. Everywhere this right to isue. , paper money is denied, by law, to the people;. No, et individual, ten, can doit. It isforbiddel bystatute, or otherwise. The right, if he had it, is taken away. It is upon this state of case the question is to be made. Can the State, having no power to do it her self, empower-authorize-by incorporatioa, the eit izen to do it? Notice the language of such acts ot' . incorporation. They are grants-actual grants of power and privilege from the State to the corporators. T They assume that power goes out of the State, from the State to the citizen. We say the State has DO , such power in her. It is all taken out of her-away from her, by the prohibition of the Constitution. i But, Mr. President, there is nothing iui the argument. read from the books, and I bring the gentleman ighit up to the case, and condemn the proposition out of the mouth of JusticeMcLean himself. I say again, the moment you make the admission, that a bank bhilt is a bill of credit, your whole case is gone, and I am willing to rest my view of it upon the definition that it is such, given by these eminent jurists, and ap proved by all history. What does Justice McLean say? I will read a little more of his decision, and then close my remarks. I want to meet the argument. of the gentleman from Belmont, and I will answer him out of the book. Mr. KENNON. What page? Mr. GROESBECK. Page 317. Here it is: — "A State cannot do that which the federal Constituticn de clares it shall not do. It cannot coin money. Here is sa act inhibited in terms so precise, that they cannot be mista ken. They are susceptible of but one construction. And s, is certain, that a State cannot incorporate any numlber oi individuals, and authorise them to coin imoney. Such ad Sc-. would be as much a violation cf the Constitution, as if the money were coined by an officer of the State, under ita au thority. The act being prohibited, cainot be done by a State, either directly, or indirectly," But this is not all. I have somethingmore, to which I ask the especial attention of the gentlenlan from Bet mont. 1 read again: "An-l the same rule applies as to the emission of bills Of credit by a State. The terms here used are less specific than those which relate to coinage. Whilst no one can mistake the latter, there are great differences of opinioni, as to tbhe construction of the former. Hf the terms in each case were equally definite, and were susceptible of but one construction, there could be no more difficulty in applying the rule in one case, than in the other." Here Justice McLean admits the same rule applies in the case of coinage and bills of credit; and 1t he would adopt Marshall's definition of a bill of cred/t all difficulty is removed. And further. H~ere is the court directly and flatly contradicting the pro~position of the gentleman from Belmont, andlIprefer to answer his argument nti way. Out of the mouthi of the court, I condemn the proposition. Once admit that a bank bill is a: bIil of' credit, and I hate the Missouri case, and this case and I am inclined to add Justice MceLean, and Onset' J ustice MIarshall, and Ju1stice StorYorand oiters.of t~ jurtists of the Federal Court., in favo of the ~ropoii/ I come now to another branch of the argument ane then I will close. What says the constitution on this subject? "No state shall grant letters ofmarque and re prisal, coin money, emit bills of credit, or make ant thing but gold and silver, a tender in payment of debts.' There stand thes e four prohibitions upon the samn platform. The prohibition in refert nce to them all, i in t he same language, i n the same paragraph. The) are all asso ciated, and it is ex press ly decl ared, no State shar I do all or any of theme Take th ese four pro hibi tions "No State shall grant letters of marque or reprisal.' Can she authorise a corporation to gra nt them? Na says the gentleman from Belmont-that is clear. "Ns State shall coin m oney.I' Can she authorise a corpo r ation to coin monev? No, says the gentleman-tha is clear. The courts also sa y, "no." Justice McLean too, says "n o.",N o State shall make anything buu g old and silver coin a tender in payment of debts." Can she authorieeotherwise? No-that is clear. "No S tateshall emit bills of credit" Can a State then, aut horise a corporation to emit bills of credit? Here, sir, we come to the single thread by which the gentlem an from Belmont holds up his great argument. Here are these f our things, all in the sam e paragraph. Th e prohibition in reference to them all is in the same language, as I have alreadv stated, and yet, while it is admitted, that a State cannot do any of them herself, or authorise the one or the other to be done, it is contended th at she can authorise the doing of just one of them. Suppo se t he State of Ohio should undertake to establish within her borders, a minit; or rather should create a corporation to coin money. The charter, if you please, is most carefully drawn. Its directions are full and specific. It requires that the proportions of gold and silver and alloy shall be exact-that the metal shall be as pure, just as pure, as that used in the nattional mints. That they shall use the same machinery, put upon the metal the same stamp-rim it in the same way, and so p repar e i t, that the coin, when it comes out, shall be a fac simile-a perfect imitation, of that issued from our mints at Philadelphia, New Orleans and elsewhere. It shall be an identical dollar or half-dollar-precisely as valuable, precisely as paissable; so perfect, that it will stand all the tests of the scales, the touch, the eye, the ring, the knife, and all others. In all these respects, it is genuine, imperishable coin. Yet these gentlemen will rise in their places here and say, "you cannot do it; it is unconstitutional," and notwithstanding this, they press upon us a proposition, that a State may authiorise that same corporation lo make as much paper money as they please' they say, that no harm is done; that no authority is violated, that. this issuing of paper money is all rilht! We cannot authorise you, they say, to make gold or silver coin, even if it should be as good in every res pect as that coming from the national mint: but you mnay mnake paper money adiinfinitum. Sir, I cannot comprehend the philosophy of this. We cannot, constitutionally, make pure money, but we may make this spurious oney. All admit that the first cannot be done, and yet man) claim that the second can be done. W4;hat, sir, was the argument of the gentleman from Belmoont on this question? According to my recollect, ion of it, It was this:'A State cannot authorize a corporation to grant letters of mar ue and reprisals.,; it cannot authorize a corporation to coils m:roney; I so understand its that ls the language of the coulrts." But, when it comes to making an inferior kind of money, something which we may call an adulteration of the real coin, then it may be done with impunity. A State cannot authorize a corporation to do these things, because the regulation of them is prohibited to the State, and reserved to the 35 I I t c a k i i e I ct e t c i 531 -532 OHIO CONVENTION D)EBATE -FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7. tioni, that these issues are unconstitutional. Justice evil yet stood before them, enormous, threatening and Mc~ea comes right square out and says so, and it ruinous, and almost exclusively in the shape of State is only on account of the ambiguity of the phrase issues and they therefore declared that "no State shall and thedifficulty of determining the precise meaning issue bills of credit." Sir, did they mean this as a of a bill of credit, that he does not apply the same mere empty declaration? Did they mean that what a prinnciple there, that he does in reference to coinage. sovereign State might not do, an individual might do? Hesays ~~~~~~~~~~soverign htt ish ono wor llids.dalmgh He says so in his owtn wi ords. or did they think, when they denied the power to a Mr. President, lest it might be supposed that I was State, they denied it also to a lesser body the State dealing a little unfairly in the examination of this might incorporate? When they made this great de. case, -consider it proper to repeat, that Jutstice Mc- lial did they not intend to wipe out forever, or inii the Lean decided this last case in favor of the bank, and language of Chief Justice Marshall to tear up by the to admit that Justice Story, who furnishes us with roots thi' mischief of paper money under which they this definition in ai way and with an authority that had suflered up to that tinle? And is it so, that by a makes it'unquestionable, took occasion to say that, mere shift and device, it can be brought to pass, that while a State could not bank, and while, in his opin. all that W8as intended to be effected, all that was de ion, the charter of the bank of Kentucky was uncon. signed to be prohibited, may be evaded, that all this stitutional, a State might incorporate any number of can be undone by resorting to the little subterfuge of its citizens to do that kind of banking. Let us read incorporating A. B. and C? Sir, if that be so, then what he says: this declaration in the Constitution is an empty sound. "TheStates may create banks, as well as othercor- I would look at that instrument in its letter and in its ations, upon- private capital, and so far as this pro- spirit; and I say, that every one, who will proclaim a vision is concerned, may rightfully authorize theml to doctrine like this, does not stand up to its letter, much issue notesor bills as currency." less to its spirit. I understand myself upon this sub. I ask the ear of the Convention to the remainder of ject, and I here declare, and I believe I have the conthis remark: currence of almost every lawyer on this floor, in the "Subject always to the control of Congress, whose ideclaration that if it were so. in this day, that there pavers extend to the entire regulationl of the culrrcncv i powers extend to the eitire regulation of the currec was but one paper money bank in the United S'ates or~~~~~~~~~~f the counr.and the constitutionality of its charter, in this particue What does that amount to? Justice Story says that lar were before the general court, they would not hesa Stateper se may not do banking, but that it nmay in- itate one moment in pronouncing against it. corporate A. B. and C. to do it, "subject, always, to I remember a certain expression in the opinion of the controlof Congress," &c. The gentlemnan from Mr. Justice McLean. He says: Belmont, [Mr. KENXON,] takes issue with Justice That the doctrine is "startling," and that it would Story, because, if his argument amounts to anything, overturn all the bunks in the United States, with a capCongress has no control over these issues. What ital of four hundred millions of dollars; and heremarks means the declaration of Justice Story, but that the in the same connection, that these banks -'supply alultimate, supelvisory, and supreme power over this most the entire circulating mediumrn of the country." subject, is ledged with the General Government? If i He makes'he a(lmission, that this circulating medium the power be there, it cannot be in the States. Sup- of the whole Union, consisted almost entirely of paper pose the State to charter a bank, and authorize it moiley-just such monoev as was sought to be prohibto issue bank bills, say to the amount of one million ited by the constitution, and yet the doctrine is startling, of dollars. If the State can do this-if it has such because four hundred millions of capital are involved power-how can Congress interfere? Can Congress i it. I admit itisstartling. By long acquiescence; by interfere, and say to the incorporation, you shall issue long sufferance, this practice has extended itself over but half a million? The State has said a million. If the entire country. It is a subject to be handled with the charter be constitutional, Congress must respect care and caution. We may not blame the courts for it. It seems to me thiatJustice Story, by this qualifi-' this. It is not the courts, that have brought about this cation, takes back all he had previously said. state of things. It is your Legislature; and for this Mr. President, I will bring my argument to a close very rea oi, it has seemed to me, especially proper May I not say in conclusioii. that no one can look to that this body-a constitutional convention-should the condition of the colonies, as they were, when the make a beginning ill this reform. constitution was formed-to the history atd character Mr. President, I now close. I beg that the convenof thile issues then in circulation, and all the other cir- tion will observe, that in the discussion of this quescunmstances bearing upon ilhe question, without corn. tion, I have used no epithets-none at all-that I havys ing to the caclusion that the object of all these pro- emploved no denuiiciations-none at all. I have not hibitions in the Constitution was to provide for the i gone into the field of exploration, that was so well expeople of the United States, one uniform currency. amined by the gentleman from Knox, yesterday-but I Trhat the dollar and the eagle of Maine should be thle have undertaken what seemed to me, to be more diffidollar and the eagle of Georgia, and that each and cult and less pleasant-to show how this question stood every eitizen, in each and every State should partici. in the courts, where it is commonly supposed, it is pate in this blessing alike. States shall not coin mo- strongly and clearly against us. I have birought here ney —States shall not emit bills of credit; States shall I think, all the cases, worthy of bein.g produced. I not affect the law of tender, and in Congress alone, have reviewed tle)m. You see what they are, and it shall be vested the regulation of the currency. What seems to me, from this view of them, we may take do these provisions mean? What can they mean, but courage and go forward. the simple truth that our revolutionary fathers intend- Let me say, these are not tbe authorities of ed to make this governmetit, ia reference to its cur- either of the great parties-that they are not the aorency, a "hard money government" and nothing else. thoritiec of whigs as such, nor of democrats as suchThe colonies had just emerged from the war of inde- that they are not the authorities of Jefferson or Madipendance with the blood of its battles upon their gar- son, or of any one of their school-but the opinions of ments and tile crown of victory upon their brows. eminent whig judges; and may I not say, that out of They saw, and felt too, this great evil. They saw their own mouths, I have condemned those who advowhence it came-from the States, for there were but cale a different doctrine. It does seem to me, that ou two of threea very few banks in existence. The of these two cases themselves, I can make an argtme a OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRIDAY, FEBaRUARY- 7. that will satisfy any one, that there is enough of doubt, banks and banking as authorized by State legislaat leas, uponi the coustitutionalitv of this question, to tures, had been admitted by all the leaders of the de-, make it proper for such a body as this, iii framing a moeritic part;y, from the timie oi' te adoption of the constituti)in for the people, ti assert the doctrine which Constitution of the United States, down to the close of we uniertook to assert the other day. I have no the administration of President Jackson; and that doubt about it, sir —and therefore I so voted. their constitutionality had been uniformly recognized I will not, Vr. President, dwell longer upon this by the practice of every administration ofthe Genequestion, atthouih, much niore might be said, that I ral Government, and by all the courts. wouid like to say I now leave it, and the whole sub- He then passed to the other branch of the argument jeer., i cociction witih w-iih it has been discussed. bv which t},.e amendment had been supported, nameI leave it in the hope, that we will take the proposition ly: that no Legislature can.;rant a charter in,ucht of the,eiitlcman from G, iernsey, and leave oct the termas that a sobseq- ent Legi lature may not repea'l other. I would much preffer, that such acourse should it, witiout making compensation to the corporators. be taken. I thiul it wuuld be entirely satisfactory, He admitted that the Le aislture might repeal any and if the convention will give the subject a further charter by making compensation. consideration, I ttiuk they will probably say so to. He then proceeded to notice the arguments in favo, But whether that should be tCe case, or not, unless I of this amendment, advanced by the gentlemen froni am convinced that I was wrong in giving the vote Miami, (Mr. DoiTsEv,) ann the gentleman from 3lontwhich I d.d, I shall repe-at that vote. I desire to as- gomery, (Mr. HOLT.) They both had the merit of sert the doctrinte of repeal prospectively. I am willing i novelty. to assert it retro-spectively; but if it should be sot as. He should satisfy his own mind, by showing that se. rted, I demdaid for it, the qualification, which I de- the undocbted decision of the supreme court of the manded far it before. United States, was opposed to this doctrine of the re On meition of Mr. TIARWILL, the convention took pealability of charters, for there wa-n not a single inPi recess. stance in which the correctness of this decision had been questioned. This bditi done, he supposed the AFTL-'.RNOGi SESSION. be argument against the provision under consideration to be complete; and that this Convention was not sit: 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. ting here as a mere court of er-'ors, to reverso the de Mr. CASE of Licking, on -eave, presented the cre- cietons of the supreme court of the United Sttes. d,Ientirals of ELIJAi VA —~'x mieiber elected for the He then proceeded to reply to the argumetit in fa.ounty of Butier, to fill the vacancy occasioned by vor of n bry chsaters derived from tiis own resigination. En'tsh i a d yesterday |lv thie, M~r. V ANCE, beivii presen)t, came forw,ard and took genitlentian fromt Knox (Mfr Miici-ELL,)'showing it, totail inapplicability, and aff-irmin;, that the first time HITCI-i~clIc, tciner- ficin t~l, cociiti- (of Geaugka. that a State of this Union undeitook to destroy the On mr otion of Mr. CASE of Lickiig, the credentials viali;dity of contracts by repealing, a charter, the prin%,were referred to the stwnding committee on Privileges iple w( dtstinctlv settled, that a cli-irter was nct erernd Elections repealabie, and the exercise of the power of repeal The question pending being on agreeing to Mr. was distinctlv denied to the Legiatnre Aj~ncisout~s amtendment to thie ameiidment of Mr. He closed by referring to the decis,ons of the stu L~wez.',-cn. pieme court of the United States, upon the constitu Mfr. ST ILWFELL opposed. the provision, because its tionalit- ofth e Comimonwealtb B3ank ofKenitucky, and termns were amibiiioi-us lie was satisfied that it in the c;se of Clay against thc St.te of Mitsearl; and would aict bear tote coastructioni which had been giv reading from the opinions of ir. Justice Story and e- to it, hv the gentleman fr'om ilani ltoi Mi.; - Mr. Jii tice McL(an-leadin. to tflie oncusion, that eisca. t IfCth( lang~uage of the provision were sabmit- a State possesses the powoer and ti e rigt to it.'corpo_ ted to the ordinary rules of construction, its operation rate banks; but that a charter of incorporation canwould bc taken as retrospective; and if tl'ere was a not be repealed, at the will of the Legislaittire, withdoubt about its construction it wiu~dl forthat reasotn, out comlpensation. be unwise to place it in the Constitution. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, said. I have litrio But such a provision as this was not in the proper to say,ifpon the immediate question now before the place. The b11 of rights was not intea as agiant, Convention. That question is witltiti a verv narrow tout as a liiiitatic,Dn of power. compass, and might. w i,"h protirit:y, Itrov been disposed I-He mit'ht rest his oppositi. en to the -provision whol- cf without any, or with but little dotile. The whole ly upon these objections, bat he w-as wvilling to itieet sunjert of repeal, however, has been gi gted~ he question firther. Still,t I sohould'- lrobably have remainid silent, lut for The argument upot v,cilc the a,vocates of this the argument of the gentlemat, from Knox, [Mr. ,viimeiidmeut relied pritcip(-llv, wa, that the General MITCeiFLL,J delivered oti yesterd-ty, and that of the t,f the ) -e r ha4 a ititticnal right gentlemn.in from Hamilton, [ Mr. GROissi.sC ] delivered to rt (~ linul be aus,a i werei ~ i~~ proh ibited t ornin. Mitoe;tecitlly -tiny desire to cor. :n i e t +,lo), of the CUntt,..d. nh rect the first natued genitlemanti, is to itiatlers of fact, meait wa based upon tthart cl auso the Constitution Before deoag Hlhi, }owever, it may ihe well to pay of the Unitee States, wlich declares. that no State some atteiition to tie question tmmediately before.us. :shall emit bills of credit. What is that question? He then went into a methodtica1 and extended ox- The steond sootiot? of the declaration of rightsq, so aininaticn and construction of this elanso of the Con- fdr as we have agreedl to it, is as follows: "_All toilitistitution of the United States, by considering, in the cal power is in tha people. Government is i,istituted first place, the subject matter of the clause; in the - for their equal protecticin anil benefit, and they have & next place, the contemporaneous constructioii, the uni- right to alter, reform or abolish tie same, whenever form action of the General and State Governments, they deem it necessary." and decisions upon it. He considered this branch of The gentleman from Guernsey, [Mr. LAwRF..Nc~.] the question, iii all its relations to the history ofl moved t'o amend, by ailing the following: "and to atth is country, showing that the constitutionalityj of'ter, revoke, repeal or abolish, by act of the General 533 OHIO CONVENTION I)EBATES —FRmtv, FEBRtIARY 7. Assenibly, any grant or law conferring special 1)rivile- now, two great parties in the several State.,, kii,w a* ges or imtmninuities, upon any portioti ef the peri, re, Federalists atid anti-F(.(erali-is. Anid tlte(] naitt wh;cih cannot reasonia.bly be e'joyed by all." were a.suited from the fact that the Ftderali.ts e The gentleman from Monroe, [Mr. ARCHBOL)D,] pro- in favor of the adoptilin of the (oistittti, lle alti poses to amend this amendment, by striking out ant federalists opposed To its ald(,pti4)ti. Atter il], id(lp. inserting, so that it. will read, "1ad(1 no special Itrivile- lion of the c(tiistittttioti the.aiiie party (dNtittctis lo w',t ges or inintinities shall ever be graiited, injurious to kept up, under the same nIatites, and it so c1))1liniiet( the public interest, and which cani,ot reasonably be until tbt)out lhe time of the ei( cli, a If Mr. Jcl-rs-on, enjoyed by all." After this adoption, however, the tilFideralist~ To the amendrent of the gentleman from Guert- were tot oppo!ed to tlhe ce,ini,iluti4mi, Ittt llyt i,it sey, I object, because it is not in its iproper place.. It ed upon a strict constri,tcti(,i of lhat trtmenltwhiia would be more apk,r-opriate in the article relative to the the F(deralists insis ted upon a tote libetal cotitiuc legislative departmeot of the government. tion. I otlject te it because of its uncertatintv. Some gen. At or about the time of the election f Mr.'efft, tileien understand it as intended 0o hive onlv a pros- son, the aitti Fedetat.tsassilntt~d tie late 4,-f };vlmbplctive o'Iperttion, wihile others unde,rstand it as inteud- licans. -ad from thlat titme fotrward uniitl tite 11tesidc eli to have both a prospective anid retr(,spective ope,ra- lial election of 124, the l".o I ar-iics were kt~owi as tion. If I understand the object of the mover, as 4'x- F(d,-ra-lists ad RepuaitaT. Tiue, tiC F(dt)ral parplal tied by hiinself., he intends, by thee timenim t, to tv was in (,ppo,itit,E after tli, first elcctioii ot Mr. eot,.fer povler C p.i. O hei lt G,:,,era A.os,,mb1y:c ~c:',I ~,,.~~ aC,I at his.,ecl~,,l ei,-ct iii tlt+_.ie l;C.> ill.:l a acts of itncorporation, those now existiig an) those smin le ote against h]it. whiich may bIe hereafter created;and aliliouglt fihe At the election of 18524, no one of the canid'41ates ar,~eitndent, in terms, reaches all corporatiost, the ar- had a maiority of elect)oral v,ltes antd Mir. Adatit.s'was guoolets of get letneim show tttit the particular corpo-. el(cted b'v the Hitui,,f Represettnies. Thte ol:pora~ios aitoed at, are batiking corporations. Tients of hi,, aditministraitt io, pttt forwardi ib;hei)r 4-,n As to the power of the General Assenibly to repeti didale,t the next eleclion, Geintieral Jachkeu, and wero acte of incorporation, a differeitce of opinion exists in denoitittaled bv tlhenieves an(] by i,ihit,rs, iitt the thil Cotivetition. This difference is itot as to ftitute dtmocratic, but'l-e JJac(ksoti party. Titat I was rjght bois, hut as to existing corporatlions. No otie, in this, every one acqtaited wtlb tlhe time-., or the 6o'ir as I know, doubts that it is within the!,-giiiitale htistor of the times, wvell hn,),ws. Actlint' udr Iiisi y~~~~~~ power of the Convention to pr,,vide that all future acts party name. thev s,,c(ced4id in lol itig their caudiof iticorporaltion shiall be repealable. date. But towards, tilh close of his secoitid ei-III, WCten Mdr. SAKWYER. Will the gentleman from Geatiga aitother candidate was Itrotight foiward, tl,i wts ii,o; vote. for it.? as plptular a., the ol( Her,,, and by thie ise (,It who.., M1r. [IIGrCf-COCK. Certainly I will, to a certain, iante they would taii no strettgth, actlisg Ttlvder the ana, perliaps to, the full extent. I have voted for it advice of Dtiff Gree. ticy abandoned the;am) tf the heretofore ill Commtittee of the Whole, and,hall, pIro- "Jackion partv," atid took i) tlhemselves lhe i,C'eiof liably again. It is a mere question of policy, asit upoi thie " Democratic party." HE.re we ithave tie or'igi of it I am willing to consult gentlemen, and1 i1 (lo what the present elf- d)ttinaiel Dfm,cratic party It shea~! seemt t~i be for the best interests of the State, and i is tot vet tweiltv vwars ()(], ItI-r (14,es it by aty teansl the people cf ti, S~tate. contt,nor d id it ever conacsin,! he entire bhi (1v uf the As:o existing bank charters, ti, questioti is not (f origitt.al sitpp)rlers )f Ceitral 1aek.i(m. Mu'tt ode$ Po much practi)cal importance. Those clharters wille of them are tnow foiiijd ii, tihe Wihig rank. And(1 it is soo1n elx;i, and titis botte of contention will be. re, rigit dad pr(,per here to.,:ay that thle %t a, T.-ell a& latoveti. Thiere are, however, memtters of this Cot- tli Deiimocratic,!arty i. t,f re(o)rtgtit Thits vwtttioit, and pern aI[)s majority, who sincerely believe, nam e w as assedi by tlhe party d:i l the s'ioud that under the Cotistituoion of' the Utiutd as ted,iit 0 Gi'iieral Ja,'kSttiir- sdi tittit I cotistrued by the (ourns of tite United States, lhe Gei- titat our (Ippinents Itave tie atvailatge of';i.;n the ral Assetitiby doer not possess the power to rep~eal tx- niiato. aild it is a., I aliptehetd, bv tit,am.,lia,ec isting charters, aid if they do not possess it, we ca,i thiey find favor wit-n Ihe 1)101)11o' ple Wn I' hen not, tile people can not, give it to them. of the Dent(tcrattic Iarty. it i., in refe-renice to thi., lW RHavin g said so iuTich, Mr. President, upon the party It ha (io otitti witt tit4I~Ibi vai-1 question itittoediately before us, I turn my attention to cprty olf l0t c pary.1 the argument of the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MIT- C'P t I a lly (if I I)(It.LL-) have aready -,aid that it was ttty purpos (it the,fit I- e It?tlielican party are advt,t,-tad It(,est.(, correct that "eilotttao as to hii niatters of fact. eat ilav. t:,id9ocates of tilsi principles a' i,,,.Titd ~;hleii he arose, is is usual with hint when ite Ilak, - tie }i raik. ait argument upon this flror, he endeavored to pr:i,duce I t -,ti,:,a from Knox, (Mr. MrrcTC:.L. ) y the inttpressioti that thit was a controversv l,etweeii fith fbc w'lii', or as hIe calls it, the F. i erat.;,), as wiigs aid democrats or as he is pleased t't detonmi- ailw1-. n -t lit fevor of Batiks, and the. D-i.,en,io nate those of us opon this side of the house-foderal- jar'vy c:y ppi-s-d to titem. It this the genilen Uir; — ists. lie asserts that the wbigs, or federalists, as 1h1 I trI. l' —.r —''.ekl.. On the contrary ttii,re Itit-. br is pleased Io denominate them, have always beett ft i batiks created since tie Jai-ksittt o f favor of banks,i teoucrats opposed to t'll~ m, and ito lS:52, t.}.,te becit iucorporated by Jackson ors'(ti'aetratsustaiti his positio-n lie g,oes back to the early history ic i,eg.-1;:dtiires. of tite government, not'of this State, but of the LTnit It it true the first bank of the'Tiuted $tate~s,,as in-. ted States. le tells us' the first bank of the Uttited cor1 ore-tet' by the old Federal party. atnd whe.n Iniu 1~-, States was incorporated by federal votes, in oppositiolt appice;tioli was itade to (,on]gress lor at exieiusii' of to democratic'votes. its charter, this application was snstainied lay thte 55'aanm Now I say to the g'entleman that at the ttme of thE patty. Put the support of that measure wits not,-fif. intorporatioti of thle first bank of the Unitied Stattes, fittec" to tile mnembecs of thati party. 1In if~it, rite i.l,,. tht.re wa~a no party iu the United States, known by tite publicant party was greatly in the ascendancy Iin Con~ tiame of democratic parry. At the formation of thel giess. 8it I a decided majo~rity ot tihe flon e ot Repgovernment, indeed before its formation, there were, at resentatives wats in favor of the extensalon of the ctr 534 O1lO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FPRitUARY 7. ter. [it the S~niate tile vote wais,qual. asd the hi'l was most of the States of the Union are not opposed to defeatei I)y the ci.stilig vote of the then Vice Presi. banks, although I admit that the party iil Ohio, is denit, G.irge Clinitoii. professedly opposed to them. And when did this It ASIG tlhe secold b)ink of the United States was ipp:)itiotio coinimence? Not until the United States Iueor~,or.ited, or citiirt,r,rd, aoif the act of iucorotr,ttioi Bank wai put down. After that pe,iod war was made wi at.i,,ri,ved by J imes M t'isoti. Was he a leder,l- iipou our State banks, the banks of their own crea1st? Were a 0 tjority of the mebers of Congress iii. tion. For years, the doctrine of bank reform was procor~iorliti.,g this secont bitik Federiliist? Ntit at all. mulgated as the true democratic doctrine. This doeOi thi conitrary. a great majority of that thotgress tritie however, became stale and the doctrine of bank were [~epiubliciiis. Not o,.ly so), but the few Federal- destruction was substituted instead thereof. iis slio were itt Coir,ss.v —ry g-oer;ally. if tiot unati- In this crusade alainst banks, the wiligs, as a partiiii,i.,ly vo,ted against the baiik. Such are the facts, ty, have refused to unite, but have been and still are a.il sti tii gitile~ni,;, ake the declarationk tth e'.tka wing that these institutions sh,u'd eujioy their cor ilisor de,iocrtts have always been opposed porate privileges For this, we have been stigmatized to i ausks, &t. tf, whigs iii their favor antid deniounced as being unworthy of the conifidence Furtticr, itt tS:32, a lill was passed through Con- of the public. ,re-s for the re-(iliart,-r of this hIauk-Aud tthis [ill M1r. President, I have made this statement to satis was cc icteil h~ a Coigresi, ii which the J cks()n par- fy the gentleman from Knox, that lie is entirely misIv h~tid- aO ini,tlease rnju)rity. This act did not b.- taketi, as to hi, matters of fact, and to convince others io~iie a las', (.II itccoit of the, Presideitial ve.to, but that the anti-banik cry cannot be traced back to the 9tthe f1,t is well keowti that it was passed by a Jscksoui old republican party, nor to the early days of the Cougress. present democratic party. It is of more recent ori S-. t.r then as respects the two batiks of the Unitied giii, and confiued in a great measure, to the State of tiatcs. ouc was chartere,l by the federal, the other by Ohio. ~he repmtitlicie jny. Batt how is lie matter of lnct The gentleman from Knox, seems to have great, to thi state? All the b)a{tk, whicii were chartered in dread, not only of banks, but of all other corporations. thls state prev ious to the year l"24, were chartered by He pronounces themn public nuisances. If nuisances, the repttblitcaa pa~rty. I say this, because previous to whi) is in fault for their creation? If the gentleman that year, tie (etler tliati tfiat party hadi the prepotider will take the trouble to examine the local laws of the ituce'a tli, stat. e. There were ittfew Federalisls!Ire State, for fifteen years past, lie will find that at least aItiifir t, but the great fiofy of thi- people, s slttied twenty-five percent. more acts of incorporation have tle adttiiiiisire'iotis of Jctersou, Madiso-i and Mor,,e. been pssed, when his own party have been in the Afte-r (tie ergati~i~tioij o' ilie, stnte, govert et, there a cendency, in the General Assembly, than when the was nto well ilit-jedi Federal otiposttioti iii the state. whig4 have been in the ascendaucy. About the time /ai l24 however, parties sprung iu), itnd there ereof ani election, his friends are peculiarly noisy upon four of titetti, each i,ttu of thee'our having its favorite the subject of incorporations, but the elections over, tandi{:ate for itt, Pre.iden'y. All these canididae icthey go up to Columnbus and create them without, h?)Vw:v;er, were of tl|e oal Reptiblican party. Thie con test linie ic(t So mtlucth refercuce to mea,~u,s as lo men. Upon this subject of repeal, the difference between I n//r,,c~-sscf ttlle these four I-ari,es have been reduced my friend from Knox and myself is this. He believes to two. kiiowta as tlie whigi and democratic pat ties. the General Assembly have the constitutional power At tie se siof' the General Asse.iblv comnmetic to repeal all acts of incorporation, as well as those filig el tihe first Ntoiiday of D,-cember 8331, somte, ten niow in existence as those which shall be hereafter or twelve batiks were,iieprporated Were these btnks etiacted. I admit that this Convention may, if it be ittcirptrsteif by wiligs? Not at all. lin that Genieral thought expedient, provide that all future acts of in-: Ass,e:cibly at the ttle of their incorporation, the Set'- corporation shall be repealable, but if the General ate Wias Ceaiatoss3d Of twelity-site Jackson men or dem Assembly do not now possess the power of repealing' ,,erst,, aid tiftIeete whitgs. It the House the Jlckseon existing corporations, we cannot confer that power or deutocrati~majority wi' twetly-six. This was the upon them. So far as our present Constitution is conOiot: ilecided D.inocrati- majority we have ever had in cerned, there is nothing in it, according to my undertie s'tu.te, sad still nuiaerous banks were incorporated. stantling, taking away this right of repeal, a bough,. At the very next session of the Geiteral Assembly, the if ever exercised, it should be done with great cauwhigs were iii the m ij,rity and'lot a single bank was tioi. But the difficulty grows out of our relation to lncorqt:tra'ed. Still tli-. gentleman from Kut,,x says the United States. We are bound, by the Cunstituthati the wnit/s have alwaiys Iteet ii favor of batiks, the tioni of the United States. and tat instrunienit predeitiecrats opposed to them. The g,intleman is inista- scrilbes that no state shall "pass any law impairing {kean as to tim lacts of tle case. the obligation of contracts." The same provision is li 1832 —3-4 iad 5. tl! democ,atic try was' down fotiiiun in our new Constitution. with tmie bank of the Uiiit-d Stat-s, and to efiect this Now. the question arises, is an act of incorporation ob'ect the legislatures of the several democratic sta,tes a contract. If it is a contract, or in the nature of a were urged to create state banksq. TPlus advice came contract, its obligation cannot be inipaired, nor in any from Iiienli leiii tolite cuoifi lti.ce of General J;ackqon, way destroyed by any State law. I hold that an act and it was adopltd anif acted upon by [-is followers, not of incorporation, is a contract, and thereftre irrecufy isi tthis state but iti inaiy af the other states,, anid pealable, becau-e its repeal would "imprirethe obligaI veitture the assert ion that of lthe biuk capittal tucir- tion" —of the contract. The getitleman from Kuox, jiorated sli,,e the celebrate-d Jacksion veto of 1832, more (Mr. Mircasinn,) and the gentlonian from Hamilton, thati ~,ear fifths has beea incorporated Iby Jac ksoi or (IMr. Gaol~saerrK,) argue very ingeniously that an act of dtemocratic Legislatures. Does any otie doubt the incorporation is not~ a contract. To this argument i truth e~ the assertioii? Let theni examine the matter shall nut reply, but say to the genltleieno, this is not ,carefall~, and tiey will fiud that I am tiot mistaken. an openi question Itwas decided by the supreme court St~il th,e geutleman fromi Kuox proclaims that the of tlie [j~ited States, niore thaii hirty yyears goiie by, aleinecratie party has ever beeii opposed to batils, the, and the decisions of that court have been tinifi~rm upon whig p,arty in lavor of them. the subject ever sinice. That court lholils thataii acf, Even a; the present time, the democratic party in of incorporation is a contract. The gentlemen both 535 ,~,Jiiuumra II wilang, why would you do it? Silplv, as I conceive, to revenge yourselves upon a few paltry banks in the State of Ohio. The two genitlemien before referred to, next argue the right of repeal up)n the grrcilnd that the several States have no constitutional right to incorporat e o)auks. That thlis is inhibited by that claiuse of the Constitutiorn of the Unaited Sta,+es whlich declares that no State shall "emit bills of credit." Thie is oa necw idea. The Consititution of the -United States -was adopted, and the government went into operati on more than sixty years since and durinf' the whole of that period the several States ha;e been constantly incorporating banks, with powier to issue bills or notes for circ,ilation. The right to do it has never been questioned by Cong)ress. It has never been questioned iii any court of the Uited States, or of the several States, froni the highest to the lowest. It may have beeIn questioned in some Cartilaqe Convention, but I believe as never before questioiege by aniy deliberative body. At the present time tliere are probably more than two hundred miillionis of ldollars of incorporated bank capital in the several States. tBut say the genltelnen, the laws incorporating it are all unced:stittitional, and therefore nuill aid void. It weotld seemn to me to be too late, after this uniforimn and unquestionable practice of moe than sixty years, to raise this qutestion. But no. Gentlemen i3n their extrenie hosltility to banks, would be wiillilig to seize upon any plautsible excuse, for destroying these institutions, although such destruction slhould( bring ruin upon the whole country. Like Sampson of old, they would destroy themselves, for the sake of destroying those whom they esteem to be their enemies, the incorporated banklers. iBut the Supreme Court of the IJniied States stands betwee.nt them and thleir victiius. Hence the enmlity of the gentlemnan from!'nox to that tribunal. Whlat is the argument by whicl t-hi new light no tion is ssustainied? It is in substance this, says the constit,ution, no State shall "emnit bills of credit;" but bank bills are bills of credit. A State cannot atuthorize others to do that which it cannot do itself. It cainnot f itself issue bills of credit," therefore it cannot iticorlorate a company with authority to issue bank bills, which are' bills of credit." Now I do not propose to argue tfis question. The To prevent the emiiission of paper of t Lls deserip — tion, the clause r efered t, was iltroc,leed into thre constitution. Tb(e iinten.titn )i was to prcr(Dntthe Siat,es fromn emnitting'"Jh]s ol cre t lnse, aoie Jor tleirt redeisptioii, upl the dCitl ofr the Staee. But I have said i omolotl not -drgte tl.: iei uesti on,. preferriiig ban ra ath er Io rely up on the ofmiaeno citizens, the (eyss oiiie bf t ihe co ortis t Coe country. and the up oirifoin pssractice f more toe atn sixt,h yea rs So far as indivi dual decisions re ecsxicern ed we o have but few of them, ans d the i eusbi is requirs. UThtil with inr a ve ry rectx s t periods n o o ne h gs dlsauted thie power of a State ts creat e i. corpoirations too, possess ini,g bal;;.ig privi le?ges Or if [he ,have beeni aniy e nter,,tainin g s-cl l:., t~he.iuiber lhas beeni so sm,all tl'a-tal, th. question has Ti)t beel raised in aniy of th)e coauts' that is so &s>r as mi knol,y edgoe exs qu es teids t4 qioe n thase not been waicd whetl.er a State had t wer hto exted to an a s.sociation of its citizens thle privil(ege o-f bani ng. Th-e gentlemianii from Halrliitoni, [Mr. oiiE, } has refered to two cases deridea by tle Su'pretie Court of the Uniited Stites —onet, repl,rted in, the fourth-i, and theotther in thle fii th volume of Peter's P-,tport. BeforeL examiniing theses cases, hoa'e'er, I waish to> refer to tihe opinion of a distinguished i vidual, whose opinio n s hlav(e heretofore beeni lheht( as oracular zy the desnocratic party. This i~}di idual, is Ge}ieral Aii,,Jrew Jacelc son. In his elatborate1d veta mnessage, ot 1832, he sayvs, "Banking, like fariinig, manufacturing, or aniy olties oc,cupationi or profession,,A is Iasit2,ss, thre right to fortlow, Whic!l is inot derived fromi law's. E'very cetizen, anid every comdppan-y of citizens, in all our States, posesse.d tie right, un,,til th1e State Legilslati3res, deemned it good policy to prohibit private hahiki)g by law. If,* the prohibitinlg laws were now repeuled, every citizen, would again posse.ss the righit.' he State hanklss are a qualified restorationi of the r,tght which has been takes away by the laws against b~ankh-ing, guarantied by such provisions and limitations, as in the opinioii of tihe State Legislatures, the public injterest require s. These corporations, unless there be au exemnption in t)ei charter, are, like private ba nkers, and bainaking companaies, subject to State taxation. TIhe mianiner in which tthese taxes shall bFe laid, depe,ll(Is wh]lolly on legislative discretion. It may be upon the bznk, upon the stoek, upon the profits, or in any other rmode, which th.e sovw ereign power shall will." i OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7. , Monroe, and the five others, by General Jackson and when did General Jackson everappointfederaltists to office? He undoubtedly appointed many men who had been federalists, but none who were not at the time of the appointment, Jackson men, good and true. ; The case of Brisco vrs.The CommonwealthBank,was i decided by a court, five of whose members were deio: erais, the appointees of Andrew Jackson. The facts of the case were these; in November 1820, the Legislature of Kentucky, established a bank by , the namnie of "The Bank of the Commonwealth of Kentucky." It was established in the name and be} half of the State, under officers to be chosen by the Legislature. It was declared to be the exclusive prob perty of the State-was authorized to issue notes or l bills, and its dividends were to be paid int,o the State Treasury. The notes or bills issued were in the or. di)ary form of bank notes or bills. The question pre sented for the decision of the Court was whether the notes or bills of this bank, thus issued, were "bills of credit" within the meaning of thie Constitution, or f in other words, whether the act establishing this bank was a constitutional act. TThe court by a majority of six judges to one, de'cided that these hills, were not "bills of credit" within the meaning of the constitution, and that the oact was t unconstitutional. The Judges who concurred in the decision were the d: mocratic judges, the live who had been appointed by General Jackson, and Judge Thompson. The dissenti)g Judge was ttorys True Judge Thomp)son does not concur in all the reasoning of the majority, but he concurs in-the opinr on, that the bills issued by the batk, did not come under the denon)ination of "bills of credit" prohiib ited by the constitution of the United States, to be emitted by the States- hence fie says, "if I consider ed these bank notes as bills of credit, within the sense and meaning of the constitutional prohibition; I would , not concur in the opinion with the majority of the Court, that they were not emitted by the State." He then assigns the reasons why he would not thus con cur, as follows:'"Thle State is the sole owner of the stock of the bank; and all private interest in it is ex pressly excluded. The State has the so!e and excia sive management and direction of its concerns. The corporation is the mere creature of the State, and en tirely subject to its control, anid I cannot bring my self to the conclusion that such all important provis ion in the constitution, can be evaded by mere torm." According to the opinion of this Judge, it seems that a ")ill of credit," within the meaning of the constitu. tion. is a bill issued by a State, for the redemption of which, the faith of the State alone is pledged. Judge Story, and he alone, dissented from the opin ionl of the Court in the decision of the case. The gen tleman from Hamilton, (Mr. G.,) has passed a high eulogiumn upon the character of that learned Judge, as well as upon the character of the late Chief Justice Marshall. Not higher, however, than they deserve. He has done them justice. And it was refreshing, af. ter these nmen have been so much vilified and traduced upon the other side of the House, to witiness that there was one distinguished democrat upon this floor, who was ready and willing lo do them justice. The gentleman (AMr. G.) cites the dissenting decision of Judge Story with mnuch approbation, and I certainly have no fault to find with it. But why does hecite it? Not to ascertain what the Judge thought as to the pow eor of a State to incorporate a banik, but lo prove~ what is a bill of credit. Not lo prove what is a bill of credit within the meaning of thle Con stitution, but what is a bill of credit, as an abstract propoosition. As to the question of power in astute to incorporate a bank, the opinion of the Judge is decidedly opposed to the o~ii Such was the opinion of General Jackson, in 1832 and he fully recognised the right of a State Legisla ture to incorporate batiks. He savs, and says truly, that the business of baiking, is as I legitimate as the business of farming, or manfactur ing, and equa lly open to every individual in community, unless restrained by law; he nce, that the State banks are a qualified restoration of this right.s No doubi is expressed, as. to the pow er of any State Leg.slature, thus to restore this right. Besides, we hav e ao a m atter of fact, that after the removal of the depositsof the Banik of the Un ited States, General Jackson directed the public money to be deposited in State batiks. It is n ot possible, th at he would have do n e this, unless he had supposed such banks to be constituoti onal. The truth is, General Jackson was ,ppo s ed to the Bank of the Uni ted States-but was ill favor of State blanks. He was emphatically a State bank man, in 1832, and a decided majority of his party, concurre d with himp in opinion; and such continupod to be the opiionion of the party, until 1836 or'37. But should a democrat now exl)re s the opinion which lackeon expressed in 1832, I suppose, he must, of course, be read out of the party. Tile position of the gentleman upon the other side ~s~ that inasmuch as ago State can "ernit bills of credit," no State call create banks of issue, because such banks ,-emit bills of credit" —and they seein to suppose, that by ascertain ing the meaning the word "bill of credit," they arrive at the extent of the meaning of this conistitutional provision. The gentletmnai from Hamilton, has, as before, remarked in reference to two cases decided in the Supreme Court of the United States. The first is the case of Craig and others, against the State of Missouri. (4th Peters 430.) The mnain question raised in that case, was, whether a certain law of the State of Missouri, wa-s constitu. t.ional. This law was entitled "an act for the establishnmenit of loan offices," and in one of its sections, required tile officers of the Treasury, under the direction of the Governor, to issue certificates to the amount of two hundred thousand dollars, of denominations, rot exceeding ten dollare, nor less than fifty cents, in the following form: "Tliis certificate be receivable at the Treasury of any of the loan offices in the State of Missour i, in discharge of debts or taxes, due from the S~.ate, for the sum of — dollars, with interest for the sanme, at the rate of two per cent. per anuurn, from this date." For the one side, it was urged that these certificates were b)iltIs of credit,' and with~n the nmeaning of the constitutional prohibition, and that the act authorizing their emission, was therefore unconstitutional-upoin the other side, this was denied. The court, Chief Justice Marshall delivering the ~piniion, decided that these certificates were bills of credit, and that the law was unconsLitutional. This, however, was the decision of a bare maji)rity of the court-three-of the judges dissenting. Now, this was nlot a case in which the) validity of a bank charter was called in question. Unless I am much mistaken, the word bank is not used it] the opinion of- the court. This case was decided in 1830. The next case refered to, by my friend from Hamilton, [M~r. GaoEsBzcK,] is the case of Pris;coe andl others, againsst the CommnlulwealthBanlk of Kentucky,(l lth Pe~rs 257,) and decided in 1837. But, before proceeding to the examnination of this cases it may be well to know who were the ju'dges by whom it was -decided. And I will state their niames, for the benefit of my friend fromn Knlox, (Mlr. MITearran,) who is so much alarmed at the federalism of this court. These judges were Story, Thompson, Baldwin, Taney, Barber, Wayne and MeLeap. The first ap-' pointed, as I believe, by Mr. Madison, the second by M~r. i i t t 53'4 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FaRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7. ion of the gentleman. But let the Judge speak for decision o. the case of Craig vs. Missouri, and decided hiinelf. as in that case, that is to say four to three. After going through a labored argument to prove Buttherehadbeen'achange. NewJudgeshadbeen that the bills issued by the Commonwealth Bank, were appointed, all of whom were of the Jackson school bitis of credit within the meaning of the prohibiting Can any inference be drawn from this circumstance to clause in the Constitution, the Judge proceeds: "But show why there would probably be a different decision? 'it may be argued, that if this Bank be unconstitution I think there can. Fiom the earliest period of the a1, all State banks, founded on private capital, are un- United States government, there has been this charac constitutional. That proposition I utterly deny. It teristic distinction, between the two great parties of the isnot a legitimate conclusion, from any just reasoning country. The Federalists were in favor of a liberal applicable to the present case. The Constitution does construction of the constitution. that is, a construction not prohibit the emission of all bills of credit, but only which would draw power to the government of the t emission of bills of credit by a State; and when I say United States. At least this was the charge againt that by a State, I mean by or in beha!f of a State, in what- party. The Republican party were in favor of strict ,ver form issued. It does not prohibit private persons, construction, or such construction as would leave to or private partnershiips, or private corporations, (strictly the States, all the powers not expressly granted to the so called,) from issuing bills of credit." Congress of the United States. The new Judges ap Again he says: "It was the issue of bills of credit, pointed were, withl the exception of Chief Justice as a currency, authorized by a State on its own funds, Tane)y, of the Republican school, strict construction ai,d for its own purposes, which constituted the real ists. evil to be provided against." The question presented to the court was purely a And again: "Thle States may create banks, as well question of power in a State. The power, not to in as other incorporations, upon private capital; and so corporate a number of individuals as a banking com fer as this prohibition is concerned, may rightfully au- pany, but the power or right of a State to establish a thorize them to issue bank bills or notes as currency; bank, of which the State itself in its sovereign capacity, sxectalways to the control of Congress, whose pow- was the exclusive owner and manager, and the profits eam extend to the entire regulation of the currency of of which were to be paid into the Treasury of the the country." State. The opinion of Judge Story in the case referred to, The court, or a majority of thie court, abiding by the was decidedly in favor of the right of a State to in- rule of strict construction, and refusing to extend the oorporaie baljiks, and no judge, so far as my knowl- meaning of the words "bills of credit," beyond what edge extends, has ever expressed a contrary opinion was intended by the constitution, held that the bills of from the bench. the bank were notsuch bills of credit, and that the The gentleman from Hamilton is willing to take the state had not parted with the power to establish such a opinion of this eminent jurist, as to what constitutes a bank even, as the "Commonwealth Bank of Kentue bill of credit, but he enJtirely discards that opinion so ky." It was a decision in favor of the powers of the far as it sustains the power of a State. states-a states' rights decision. It was a decision op Now, Mr. President, how stands this question as to posed'to a liberal construction of the constitution of the power of a State to incorporate banking iustitu- the United States. Lions? On the one side we have the unilorm prac- Now I would ask the gentleman from Knox, are you {ice of the country for more than sixty years, the in favor of a liberal construction of the constitution of opinion of the venerable Jackson, and the decision of the United States? the supreme court of the United States, and on the other, Mr MITCHELL. No Sir. the opinions of my friend from Knox, [Mr. MITCHELL,] Mr. HITCHCOCK. If you are not, then you canand the two gentleimen from Hamilton,[Messrs. R.EM- not be in favor of restiicting the powers of the resF,.Li. and GnOESBECK.] Which shall we follow? which pective states, and increasing the powers of the Conshall predominate? I ask my friends upon the other gress of the Uiiited States. And you ought to be side, whether upon this doubtful authority, whether found sustaining the decision of the court in the case against the decision of the highest judicial tribunal in of the Comrnmonwealth Bank. The judges making that tbe country, they are willing to adopt a theory, decision, carried out the states' rights doctrine. They which if.carried into full effect, will throw the whole held that, in the words of the tenth amendment to the country into confusion; which will destroy the curren- constitution of the United States,'"thle powers not delcy, annihilate the circulating medium, and bring indes- egated to the United States by the constitution, nor cribable distress and ruin upon the entire people? prohibited byit to the states, are reserved to the states Well, gentlemen, do it if you will, but remember, in respectively, or to the people." such event, you cannot escape the general distress. The great danger of our system is that the powers You, equally with us, and others, must feel the effect of the general government will be increased, the of the calamity, thus by your own acts brought upon powers of the respective states dimilnished. Ti'ere is the country-and brought upon it too, for no other pur. a great tendency to centralization. The decision uf pose than the destruction of a few banks in the State of the court so often referred to, is calculated in some Ohio. measure to check this tendency. And I say to the It seems from a remark of Judge Story, in his opin- gentlemen on the other side of the house if you are ion in the case referred to, that tile case had once be- opposed to the increase of the powers of the general fore been argued and submitted. He says, "when this government, sustain the court. But if you are in facause was formerly argued before this court, a majority vor of an increase of those powers, and as a measure of the Judges, who then heard it, were decidedly of to effect such increase, are in favor of a liberal conopinion that the act of Kentucky establishing this bank, struction of the United States constitution, condemn was unconstitutional and void; as amounting to an au- the court. In such event however, I cannot go with thority to'emitbills of credit,'or andon behalfoftheState, you. I am as I ever have been a strict constructionist. within the jurisdiction of the Constitution of the Uni- Mr. GREEN of Ross said: He was aware of the disted States." How the court was constituted at the time advantages under which he proposed to address thiw the cause was formerly argued, we know not. Chief body at this tinie, protracted as has been the debate, and Justice Marshall was one of the number. And the especially as the two distinguished gentlemen from co~urt was probably constituted, as at the time of the l Muskingum and Geauga, (Messs STILWELL and 538 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FZBRUARY 7. HiTcHCOCK,) had just preceded him on the question, with much power and effect. Nevertheless, there were some considerations proper to enter into our ac tion on this question that hadi not been as fully presen ted as they nighlt be. He should therefore ask the in dulgence of the Convention for a few' mnoments. As the gentleman who had just resumed his seat, (Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga,) had recarked, there could be no doubt as to the object intended to be secured by the amendment to the bill of rights, off'red by the gentle man from Guernsey, (Mr. LAWRENCE,) and now under consideration. It is one of a series of propositions, which have in one form or another, and under one pretence and another, been iatroduced here, having one sole obhiect In view-to reach a certain. particular class of incorporated inlstitutions now existilig;n the State. You, as well as myself, are aware, Mr. Presi dent, that for several years past the question, here covertly and indirectly piesented, has been employed as a weapon of party political warfare, by the means of which one party has been, to a considerable extent, enabled to mislead the people, and thereby to obtain, occasionally, supremacy in the State. The Democra cy h,s represented itself as the ancient, consistent and sworn enemy of "Bank Monopoly," as they please to term it; and has as constantlycharged upon the Whigs, in every lorm which a very progressive imagination can devise, that they are the peculiar aid exclusive ad vocates of every sort of monopoly-bantik monopoly in particular, and the apologist for all the frauds, practiced or charged to be prae,tised by those institu tions. Now, sir, the history of the past twenty years is conclusive on this subject. But these gentlemen don't like historv-there is too much of sober truth in history to suit their progressive iiotions,consequent ly they preserve a most lofty and dignified silence on the historical facts I intend, before I sit down, to open the record I intend to state an account, and strike a balance with these anti-batik corporation gentiemen, and uniess they repudiate the founders of their political church, renounce the articles of faith which were originally promulgated by the fathers and the prophets of Jacksodemniocracy, they must submit to be convicted, pay the costs for their false clamor and go hence without day. Great latitude of debate h as been indulged in, since this question c am e up. Gentlemen who lavee preced ed me have seemed not to think the "qu estion" of sufficienit import ance to claim t heir atte ntion I f IM should, therefore, leave theconsi'eration of theamendtnent before us to follow my illustrious predecessors, I shall hope to be indulged. I desire, first, to ad,dress myself to the argument of the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. GROESBECK,) delvered this morning. I do so the more, because from rndicatiovns which I saw and hazard around me, at the time of its delivery, I amxi led to believe that it produced some effect. I heard it claimed, in whispers that the gentleman had most triumphantly established the fact, that John Marshall, late Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the Unjited States was authority to sustain the fallacies asserted here. I shall deal with the argument of the gentleman from Hamilton, with all the resp ect it deserves It was novel, somewhat, in its doctrines, fallacious in its reasoning~s, and most erroneous in its conclusi~'m —cntradic' ted by the authorities cited to sustain it —in short, an argument such as I should least have expected fron that very respectable lawyer, the gentleman from Ham - fillon. Before doing zo, however, let mle say in advance that if >,I sthat succeed ill refuting the position of the genktleman from Hamnilton, out of his own book, I do not Roberto carry gentlemnen onl the other side with me. The gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) told us the other day, in su bs t ance, that in his opinion this Supreme Court of the Unit ed States is a n unnecessar y engine of powe r, mis chievous in its principles cand practice, a foul blot on the fair propor tions of our gov ernment. T he gentleman fro m Truambull, (Mr. RAN NaY,) a day or two since commenting on the opinion of Judge Marshall, in the Dar tmouth College case, told us tha t he (Marshall) was an "old sophist." What tha t court may have said, of course will not influence those ge n tlemen. No r do I suppos e t hat t he opinions of those who now grace that bench, s e lected as mue. ih for their supposied othodoxy in d emocracy, as for their s u perior onerits, will influence any of t he polit ical friends of those gentlemen. They hold, I believe, t he same OpiiOnio n s aid to have b een expressed by a distiin guished politician of New York, (Erastus Root,) when informe d tha t the co unci l o f appoi ntment had normina, ted a fe d e ra list to the besfch,he replied: G ood! there's a democrat saved. Put a democrat o n th e bench, an d you make a federal ist of him directly." I do not doubt that the resolutions of a democrati c township meeting would have more weight with these gent le men than tso n oin on s o the solem n opinions of the Supreme Court. And it may be unfort un at e for the country, but so it is, the court has the advantage of the township democ, rac y, eve n of Hamilton or Knox counties, it has the powe r to enforce itsjudgments; and I must, thereflore, bow to its behests, bei n g a law-abiding man. I say, t hen, that I have no hope of ma king converts on the other side, if I succeed in what I have proposed. But, sir, I shall have the proud satisfaction of vindicating, (feebly, I admit, but with all my heart,) on this floor, ths character of that illustrious man-tthe late Chief Justice —frown an attempt to fasten upoIn him a heresy as gross as could well be conceived. I know, sir, I shall say nothing new to the legal gentlemen here, though some of them do seem to be strangely ignorant of his opinions, but I speak that tieo honest people, who will take the trouble to read, may know fairly, and with what truth, opinions have been attributed to the illus trious dead, which when living no man would have had the hardihood to impute to him. The gentleman from Hamilton advanced several propositions, which he proceeded to sustain by reference to certain reported cases; and very triumphantly, too, in the estimation of some of his political friends near me. In order that I may not do irnjutstice to him, I shall state them as nearly as I can, in his hearing, so that, if I have not understood him aright, he may correct me. His first proposition is, that that clause of the 10th section of the first article of the Constitution of the IUnited States, which declares that no State "shall coin money, emit bills of credit, &c., is a restriction, a prohibition of the right of the States to incorporate banks of paper issue. 2d. That the notes of these banks are bills of credit, within the meaning of the Constitution, and so held by Marshall, Chief Justice in the case of Craig vs. the State of Missouri, 4 Peters, 410. (Mr. GiROESBECK assented.) 3d. That McLean, Justice, in deciding the case of Briscoe vs. the Commonwvealth Bank of Kentucsky, 11l Peters, 255. had been driven to the necessity of de, claring that the Chief Justice was wrong in the construction gibbon to this clause of the Constitut~ion, in the case first cited. 4th. That in the same case cited from 11l of Peters, Justice Story, in his dissenting opinion, adopted the construction of Marshall. And finally, if Marshall is right, (and the gentleman claims that he is,) then bank-notes, being'*bills of'* credit," within the meaning of the Constitution, the 539 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7. e the Governor, were required to issue certificates to the amount of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, of 3- denominations not exceeding ten dollars, nor less than - fifty cents. These certificates were in the following >f form: I- "This certificate shall be receivable at the treasury of any e- of the loan offices in the State of Missouri, in discharge of of taxes or debts due to the State for the sum of -- dollars, p with interest for the same at the rate of two per centum from th is date." e These certificates were, by the law, to be receivable Li at the treasury, and by tax gatherers and other public e officers in payment of taxes or moeyvs due, or to be come due, to the State, or to allv town or county e therein, and by all officers, civil and military, in the e State, in discharg, of salaries and fees of office, and in payment for salt made at the salt springs owned by the State. The twenty-third section of the act pledges certain ; property of the State for the redemption of these cer1 tificates; and the law authorizes the Governor to negoti ate a loan of silver or gold for the same purpose. Pro e vision is made in the law for the gradual withdrawal of - the certificates from circulation. Thie conmmllissioners . of th.e loan offices were authorized to make loans of the y certificates to citizens of the State, assigning to each e district a certain portion of the amount of the certifi cates, to be secured by mortgage or personal security, n the loans to bear an interest not exceed inl six per fr ceutum per annum, &C. In August, 1822, Craig and I others made their promissory nlote, promising to pay, s at the loan office in Chariton, on November 1st, 1822, n one hundred and ninety. nine dollars, lninety-nine cents, ) and the two per centum per annum, the interest acr criuing, on the certificates borrowed, from 1st October, r 1822 Suit was instituted on this note by the State of C Missouri. The defence set up was "that the act of the r Legislature of Missouri, entitled "an act for the estab lishinent of loan offices," is uncolnstitutional and void, being repugnant to the provisions of the Constitution of the United States, which declares that no State shall I issue bills of credit. That the State could not recover f onil the promissory note, which was the foundation of the action, because the consideration was illegal. Judg mient was rendered for the State ill the Circuit Court 0of Chariton. The cause was appealed to the Supreme Court of Missouri, the highest judicial tribunal of that State, where the judgment of the Circuit Court was affirmed. And the defendanls took the case to the Supt preme Court of the United States, by a writ of error, under the 25th section of tile Judiciary act of 1789 I have thus. Mr. President, given a synopsis of the 3 ease, that it might be seen what was the question be fore him, which Chief Justice Marshall decided. I cannot present what he did say in any language so clear and comprehensive as his own. I shall therefore read from his opinion. I must first say, sir, that it is n ot a little strange that the gentlemian from Hamilton a llso read from thie same opilnion, what hle definles to be o a "bill of credit," but that part of tlhe opinionii il which the Judge (speaking for the Court) applies the prohit bition in the Constitution to the definition of a bI)ill of 1 credit, and then proceeds to show that these certificates b come, clearly, within his delinition and the prohibition, the gentleman took carea not to give us. After having defined what lie utiderstood by the term "bills of credit," ill the general, ordinary comt mercial sense proceeding to show the evils which re sulted from the emission by State goverlinients and by t Congress, of this description of paper-exposing imdi riduals to immense losses-the source of ruinous apep culation, destroying all confideuce between man and f:man, Judge Marshall proceeds to say: o "To cut up this mischief by the roots, a mischief which [ was felt through the United States, and which deeply affect bank charters in Ohio, and the other States of th Union, are all unconstitutional! Mr. President, I admit that this idea has been as serted by high authority, which I shall presently re fer to. But that it has ever received the sanction o any judicial tribunal, respectable or otherwise, I ut terly deny. And I here say in my place, if the gen tleman from Hamilton will produce the opinion o any respectable Court, from a Justice of the Peace u to the highest judicial tribunals, in any State of the Union-or of the Suprene Cor of of th e Un ited States sustaining the proposition he has advanced, I wilt ineontineently ground arms, and vote with thim for th repeal o f charters. But to the question. I propose to show that Judg Mfarshall did not, in the case in 4 Peters, nor any wher else, ever assert the opinion, that the notes of a bank incorporated by State authori ty are "bills. of credit,' with in the meaning of the prohibition in the Consti tution. On the contrary, that he held the very re verse. That, Judge McLean did not in the case in 1] of Peters affirmil, that the Chief Justice [Marshall,]had erred in the construction given to the clause of th, Constit,ution ill question, in the case reported in 4 Pe telrs-thatStory did not adopt any such absurdity That in repeated instances, that Court las direetl and indirectly affirmed the power and right of the States to create these institutions. In the outtset, it might be proper to refer gentlemen to the hitory of the evil sought to be corrected by the prolbibitioni inl the Constitution in question. ] will not, go in:ito a detail, which would be tedious, as gentlemtten are, many of them, familiar with the sub ject. It may be sufficient to say, that the attempt to supply the wvant of the precious metals, by a pape circulation, commenced at a verv early period in ou Colonial history-beginning with Massachusetts, if I remember aright, as early as the year 1690-and prac tised buy nm,)st of the Colonies from that period to the close of the Revolutionary War. During that eventfut strug,gle, Congress resorted to it to a most fearful extent to supply the emergencies of the occasion. They issued more than three hundred millions of these "bills of credit." They were required by Congress to be issued on the funds of the individual States established for that purpose, and the faith of the United States was pledged for their paymnent. The constant depreciation in the value of this paper, based upon tLe credit of governmenits, some of which had no means to pay with, and others refusing to meet their engagements-its ultimate worth lessened, be. cause of the want of power to enforce payment, and the distress consequent upon the total loss of millions to the people-must be known to every gentleman acquainited with our Revolutionary history. Such were the circumstances, and such the evils to be remedied, which produced the adoption of the clause in the Constitution we are considering. To prohibit the State governments from "emitting bills of credit," based upon the faith and credit of the States-the payment of which could not be enforced -producing disastrous consequences upon the credit of the Confederacy-and ruinous to the currency and business of the country, was the object sought and inten:ded to be accomplished by the framers of the Constitution. Thle question involved in the case of Craig vs. The State of Missouri. cited by the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. GRor.snECK,] brought up directly, for construction, this elause.of the Constitution. On the 27th June, 1821, the Legislatur~ of Missouri passed an act entitled, "an act for the establishment of loan offices," by the third section of which the officers of thle Treasury of the State, under the direction of 540 1OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY'. ed the interests and prosperity of all, the people declared in their constitution that no State should emit bills of credit. If the prohibition means anythitg if the words are not empty sounds, it must comprehend the er.'sign of any paper enedium by a ST.ITE GOVERNMlENT, for the purpose of common circulation.' Hee, then, sir, is the point; a nd i t is strange to t ie that the gentleman from Ham il ton seems not to perGeeve it. It is the emitting by a State gorernmnerit, of bills of credit that is prohibited. Mr. GPOESBECK said that it could not be controverted that Judge Marshall had decided that a bank bill ii a bill of credit. in w hich he had been subsequently sustaineid by two or three de cis ions of Judge Story. iIer. GREEN. That is not the point at issue here. It i s conceded that a batik bill isa bill of credit; but the question is, is it a bill of credit in the meaning of the prohibitory clau se i o t he Constitution of th e United States? Tidat is thie ques tion, and the gentleman dodged it. Why, sir, nobody ever disputed that a batik bill is a bill of credit. My promissory note for the paynielit of money is a bill of credit, that is if anybody w il l give it credit. Every form of paper which may pass by endorsetsineit or de liver ro misin on its face to pay monhey, isi a bill of credit,. But is every such paper prohibiwd by the Cons,citut io g of the nited States'i L ook at the a bsurdity of the thing. In the absence of laws restraining it, every mall has a right to issue and put in circulation his written prom ises t o pay mtoney. Your S tate laws d o restrain the exercise of this r ight by individuals, but the Legislature confers the right by act of incorporation uponl asso ciati ons of individuals. That,is, it empowers them simply to do, what they might have done without an act of incrporation, lid iiot the laws of th e S tate p rohib it it? Now tlilei su ppos e you had no restraining laws, prohibithtg individuals or associations from issuinig paper mtoey, for circu lation-every man then might play banker and issue his notes. What then is the argument and what is the conclusion from it. Coingres-s lhas declared that no State shall issue bills of credit. Batik notes are bills of credit, within the unw,aning of the prohibition. A State government,, as it can.io.' authorized another, to do what is prohibitedl to itself, cannot, therefore, by act of incorporation, give authority to individuals, or associations to issue paper, which arebills of credit, for circulation. This is the argument-inow for the,esult. The State gove,:,nment cannot, (being prohibited by the Constitution of the United States,) by law authorize individuals or associations, to issue bills of credit-but as it is not bound to prohibit the exercise of the right by law, and Ias not done so, any individual or association has a perfect right to do so! Ergo, a bank note issued by au incorporated compainy- is void, there being no power in the Legislature, to confer the right to issue it, but if issued without the santcetion of an act of incorpcaration, it is legal, valid and binding. Oh! most 1 nld ne sc:-st-)utiaily, a violation of he since, as a reason for kieeping up the militia system constitution of the United S.,ates, because It rmIakea d.s —. and all history was summoned to testify of the horrors tictions0 ainonigst citizenIs. -,t I may be wron.g. growing out of wars of races. I know that terrible know it might be repliel, (itrobsO"y will not'j that we conflicts have often been witneesed between different have the right to autlioria- art es'eil as the whole races forminig paris of the same nation; but I too of the (itixens of the State to eriny the icit to vote,, will appeal to history and defy aty one to point out an But I claim, that uner of the United instance where these conflicts have not growA n out of States what ver rights are confr. —cd upon a elass ol the attempt on the part of one race to oppress the o0h- citizens should be conferred uipon1 all belotigig ito that ers. How is it here? We have Saxon and Celt, Eug- class. The claus, from whicich Y drive thirs conclusion lishmen and Americans in this convention, associeti ag1i the firs t clause of of article 4; agd it is a in perfect liarniuny, and between these nations or races follows: there is a perfectly good feeling over the whole cons atry, and the reason is, we are all upon au eqeal footing. But how is it in Ireland? Do the Saxon aud tle privileges and immunities of citice of tle Celt agree there? Certainly not and because the Sax- States on has always been the oppressor. flow is it in lin- Now I take it that the right of suffrage is one of these, gary? There you have had a war of races and every privileges and llmunies, to be conferied upon citione is awmre that the war grew out of the injustice zens. and oppression practice(] by one race upon the others. Mr. SA'WYER, (in his seat.) Negroes arc'.ot etiIf you want to excite a war of races you have only to ijeas practice oppression. Mr. HUM1'HRE'VILLE. if I have time I will an But I know my time has more than expired. I have swver that. said I do not believe we have any thinig to fear even if Now, w here do wea get the right of making t!.-is di~s-. different races should inhabit this state. That one race tuiction'? The distiniction is broader betwee:n male anud has th~e same right here as aiiother-that word white ~ale citizens, although we miught coafcr liae right 06 is inidefinite and ought not to lie inserted in the report suffrage upon both. But have we any right to throw and that any restrictioii of suffrage is impolitic, anti- -itito the constitution a line of distinction dividing any democratic and unjust. one class of citizens? If so, where are we to draw tli is Mr. HITCHCOCK of Coyahioge. When some al- line? What does thics word ~'white-" mean? Would fusion was made to this subject at Columbus, I took oc- -:the constitution authorize~ a men of one-fourth blac It casion to say, that when this question should fair -'blood to vote? lie caninot be said to be a white man, 552 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-S,STJRPAY, FEBRIJARY 8. Mr. NASH. Mr. Presidenit. I have only a word to say in explanation of the vote I shall give on this questioni-I shall vote against striking out this whole white, and for the following reasons: And first; I do not believe it would be in accordance with public opinion. To make this change would be to defeat our Constitution whatever other nmerits it might contain. Such beinig public opinionI, we cannot disregard it if we would. No practical statesman would disregard the public opinion and send forth a otisti tutioii with its death warrant written in it And secondly; I do not believe that it would benefit the very population desiztned to be bnel-eitted. Such is the state of public feeling, that this right granted would inevitably lead to the oppression of the colored population. The very first election would lend to difficulties, and heart- burnings between the white and colored population and probably to open outrages. It would necessarily inflamie the antipathies now existing between the two races. We may say that these antipat)ies are wrong, unchristiant; but foul words will not do away with facts; this body must deal withl these facts-would be regardless of its duties by assumilng to disregard them. The colored people shouldi seek not to mix in politics and involve themselves in the patty strifes of the country. Let them quietly pursue the policy ofedu - cating themselves and by intelligence and moral worth seek to remove prejudices and antipathies now existing and existing in strength sufficient to oppress them if they were once roused into passiotnate, action. Again. thiis is not a question of right, or morality. The right of suffrage is a mere question of expediency —has ever been so considered. Hence minors and females are excluded from the exercise of this power in the government. The law, when inade, protects all alike; but the question, who shall make our laws, is another and different question. I so regard the ques tion, and so regarding it. can have no hesitation in voting in accordance with a well known public opinion. In doing so, I do not violate any principle of right, as I understand the question. N'or is there anything in this word citizen.'I'They may be citizens, and yet not be entitled to the right of suffrage. Minors are citizens, and yet not voters. This is all I have to say Mr. WO'ODBURY. I am pleased to see those who are opposed fo this amendment treat the subject with so much candor-feeling no disposition, apppirently, to preve n t a direct vote upon the question. I find no fault w ith any man for opposing the an endmenit, for I am s a ti sfied that ther e arie iembersi wsho are individually iIt favor of the amcndendment, but whose duty it will be to vote again st it, on accolunt of the known will of their constityuents. Before the vote shall be taken. I desire to call the attention of the body to the inconsistencies which will be found in the ConstituLioni, if this word "white" should be retained. There will be a manifest inconsistency in retaining this word, provided it is the intention of the Consti tution that this should be a government of the people. In the preamble, we have used these words: ,,ie, the people of the State of (Ohio, grateful to Almighty ,God for our freedom, to secure its blessings, a r,d promote our common welfare, do establish this Constitutionl." But nowr, in saying this,tle certainlydo not intend to refer to a majority of thet people, but only those wvho are to give their Uonsent to this Uonlstltution. Not mlore than one fifth of thle people of the State are voters, and the sanction of a rnaiority o~f these will be -sufficientt to make this C~onstitutio binding.r In the first section wve have this language: "All mnen are by nature free and independent, and have certain inalienable rights, amonog which art those of enjoy if the word means any thing. In order to get over this difficulty, the courts have b,:,en obliged to decide and say that the constitution does not mean what it says where it uses this word "white," and that a person having less than half black blood, shall have the rights of a white man. And such, I suppose, would be the construction of this (.Iause. But the gentleman fromn Auglaize, [Mr. SAwYEs,] says that Negroes are not citizens. I will read the following from Kent's Commentaries, vol. 2, page 258, sec..32, as a complete answer to this suggestion. Chancellor Kend t says: "Citizen.s, under our constitution and laws, mean free inhabitants, born within the United States, or niatturalized under tt-he laws of Cozygress. If a slave, born in the United States, be manumitted, or otherwise lawfully discharged from bonidage, or if a black man be born within tihe United States, and born free, he becomes thenieeforwar(i a citizens" Then, a negro, if born in the United States, is a citizeni, if he is born free. Or, if born a slave, and manumnitted, or by any lawful mode, obtaining his freedom, he is a citizen. And I know of no reason, why a man who might not b e includei within the hmeaning of th e word pwhiote," might not be naturalized. [ say, then, that in my judgment, tihe at tempt to deprive any nrle citizen of thie r ights and immunities of citizensh ip, is substantially a violation of the COStitsltiOll of the u Un ited States. By aut horizing negroes to -vote, we would be doing no more than what has been d one by several of the s lave States. Negroes have had th e right to vote iNew York, Peiinsvi,iwnia, Mass;tclusetts. Connecticut, Rho de Isl and, N ew J ersey, Delaware, North Carolina, and Ten,essee. More tha n h alf tyle original States, at one time or othr, have given to n vgroes the right t o vote-besides the State of Tennessee, which was not otte of the original Tlit-teen. ThIe fra me r s of the old constitution in Ohio, were more liberal upon t his mat ter, tan t h e mqe rti n mnr ners of thlis conlventiona. Th e f ormer convention voted to autlyorize negroes then in the State, to enjoy the right ofsuffrage. To be sure, the vote was re-coonsidered-but upon the fina l vote whi ch de fea ted th e clause, ther e was only a majority of five against it. We are progreossi!ng, te, it sees, i the ca use o f human libe r ty, but we are progressing the wrong way. I shall'vote for striking out this word. I cannot, dowever, even ahope, that it will, be stricken out, for .hat would be hoping against hope. But I will say to gentlemen, if,hey wis to be consistent with the ir own declarations; or, if they wist to live up to the rule of rendering equal and exact justice to all men, it seemis to me, tlat they should v ote for this ameindmepnt. Mir. SAWYER. I hav e giv en cmy views upon this subject, and shall riot repeat them. I have now mierely to say, that I have clhaniged my opitnion somewhat. of gentlemen, who advocate these peculiar views. I believe now, that they are honest-aned according this to them, I ask the sarmle consideration for myself, when I oppose their views. Moreover, I am willing now, to vote for submitting the question of negro suffrage, to ;lie people, in a separate clause. But I cannot consisteritly, with my sense of duty, vote for negroes to approach the ballot box, so long as I remember that we citizens are white men, and that we have acquired this country, (whether by fair, or foul means,) and it beTongs to us. At the same time, I adhere to the motto of "iequal rights to all, exclusive privileges to none." I amn willing that the colored race should be colonizfd, and will go as far as any man to effect that object, for I believe, it is the only proper method of elevating them to their just position. But that negroes have the same rights with white men, in this country, I utterly deny. .553 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 8. people of the State, and that it is expedient to do.x. I do not know but it is so. I thought the gentleman was right who last addressed the Convention, [Mr. NAsH..] I would not go for putting anything into the Constitution which would defeat it. The gentleman from Auglaize, [Mr. SAWYER,] has expressed his willingness to submit the question of extending the right of suffrage in a separate clause. But I ask, to whom would he submit this question? There could be no propriety in submitting this propositioiI to those who are opposed to it. But if he would submit this question to all tile people over twenty-one years of age, then I would be with him. I would be very glad indeed to have this question in relation to the elective franchise submitted and acted upon by our entire population. , Mr. >EEMELIN moved that the Convention adjourn. On which motion Mr. MANON demtanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, -and resulted yeas 4,1, nays 46, as follows: YEas-Messrs. Andrews, Baybee, Pates. Case of Licking, Dorsey, Ewart. Farr, Gray, Greene of fiefiance,Green of Ross~ Gro e sbe ck, Hard, Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitch'lcock of Geauga, Holt, Hootrmai, ltumphreville, ilunter, Jones, Kennon, Larsl,, Lawrence, l arwisi Leech, Leadbetter, Mitchell, Morris, Nash, Norris, Otis, Reemelin, Riddle. Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stebbins, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Champaign and Worthington —44. NAYs —Messrs. Barlnet of Monitgoomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carro)ll, Cahill, Case o f Hockiniig, Chanbers, Chaney, (- cllings, I oolik, Curry, Cutler Fo et, Florence, F iorbes t, Gille Gregg. Harilton, Hendaerson, Holmes, Horton, launt, Johnson, King, Kirkwood, Lideyd Loudon, Marioni. Alorehead, Otis, Peck, Perkins. (uigley. Sawyer, Scott of Iarrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanton, Itilwell. Stickney, Swift, Vance of Butler, War-rev, Wilson, Woodbury and President-46. So the motion to adjourn was rejected. On motion, of Mlr. -iOLMES, the Conivention took a recesss. ing and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and seeking and obtaining happiness and safety." It must be evident to every man who reflects, that, in order to secure himself in his rights, in a country governed by laws, every person must, to s,ome extent, evrteyns ee tneesr. Irol,b ey gldinedtohveti..etini participate in fr am ing er the la ws. For there e a but two ways in which hwe can be protected. He must be protected either b y political or by phys ical power. Well, in regard to the s ec ond se ction, that corres ponds exa ctly with m y own views. It is as follows: Sec. 2. All political powe r i s i nherent in th e people. ei6vel nmefrt is instituted for their equal protection and beor efit. and t re a t hey have the r igh t to alte r or reform the same when ever they may deem it necessary. When l this section W.r Frnder consideration, I offered an a mendment, which I supposed would accord with the intention of the conovetion. I proposed to strike out the word " people," a ind insert the words "free white ilne citize, s of tne United States residing within the State of the age of twentv-one years." But the coIC vettioh refused to adopt tha t amendment, thu s evi arcing a s ens ae of te ipropriety of confining political power to th is class. Now, fron the vot e, 1 might rationally su ppoose,l of that a larg e p roportion of the body were agreed with me, i the ltanlguage o f this section, "that all powe r is inherent in the people." Am d, i f this be trie,to then the exclude t and disfran chised portion of our people h leav e aright to alse ndble telereselves togeth er and form a goveriineiit for the ir own protection. We aret not hre as their reyreslentatives at all. Our constituents are the free wt ae citizens of the re ite mliens h United Slates, ovar twenly-one years of age, residing in the Sate O hio. W e se act for them alone. The larg e majorit of the people, (ine udring females, Cac colored person;r, minors, &u.,) lave no means of making known their wis hes to us but by petition. Then have they not the same right with ourselves to organize and es tablish a constitution? and have we not admitted this f act? T hey ar ges potrptrie t ho tis government; ineither are they rightly bound by it. It is a part of our dtclariataio ma of I ndepe diience, that all legitimate governments depends upon tihe conaent o f the governted. But this larger portion of our people have given n o consent to our legislation; and if we undertake to exten d this constitut ion over taec, it will be in violation of a principle which has been ack n owl edged by a large portion of tlip conlventioe. But I migh t b e m et here by the fact, that we do not extend equal rights to a small minority of the male citizens of th e Stat e. Tha t is true. B ut e ach generation having the right to alter, amend, or abolish their form of governient-if the rights of this majority are cut off and trampled upon-if they are excluded, as they now are, from those employments which are best suited to them —they have bult one course to pursue for the remedy. They have the sam o e r ight with ourselves to the benefit and secu rity of political power; and coming together, to form a political constitutionI of their own, they might organize a government which would embrace the largest portion of the entire commiunity. But we are told that the disfranchisement of these classes is a imere matter of expediency. I look upon it as a matter of inj3ustice —a v~iolat~ionl of first p~rinciples, which we ourselves hav~e acknowledged and established. So far as we can do 80 ill this Constitutions it is a matter of usulrpationl on our part to undertake to extend this Constitution over a class7 of so large a t-.roportion of our citizens, without their consenst, -and claim that we have their assent, from the fact that, they have not given their dissent. Why, t,hov have not had an opportunity to do so. We sly tere, that we Slave the physical power to take away the sovereignty from the majority of the: 3 O'CLOCK, P. M. The question pending, being on the motion to strike out the word, L"wrhite," Lvleere it occurs the first time, in the first section. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, moved that the Convention adjourn. Oil which motionI, Mr. MANON, demanded the yeas and nays, which were or dere d, and resulted, veas 21, nays 57, as follows: YzAs —Messrs. Andrews, Bates, Porsey, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Hit chcock of Geaugabr, Holt, t idtean, Hunter, KeiLno'm,.,arsh, Lawre nce, Leech, Leadbetter, Morehead, McCor.. mich, Orton, l,eemielini, Taylor, Townshend, and Worth ing.ton-21. 'NAYs-Messrs, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble. Benlnett, Brown of Atlhens, Browneof Car, roll, Cahill, Chaney, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Farr, Florence, Forbes, GilletL, Gregg, Hamilton, Harl, Hawkins, Hort"on, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones. King. Kirkwood, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, Marlion, Mason,. Mitchell Otis, Peck, rerlins, Quigley, lRaiiney lliddle,"$Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wya ndot, Stanbery, Stanton. Stebbinis, Stickney, Sitruble, Swift. Thompson of Stark. Vance of Butler. Warren, WAlilson Woodbury and President-57. So the motion to adjourn, was rejected. Tihe question then being on striking out tihe w,vord, *'white." i Mr. WOODBURY demanded the yeas and nays. and being ordered, resulted, yeas 12, inays 66, as I ollows: Y~As.-Messrs. Andrews, Cool, Farr, Gray, Humphreville, Hunter, Otis, Peliins, Swift, Taylor, Townsitlenid. and W,ood burv-12. NAYS. —'Nessrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery Barnett of Treble, Benne-t, Brown of Athens, Brown of C?a. 554 AFTERNOON SESSIO,Q. O-IIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, FEBnRUARY 8. exhibited, and such vulgar and indelicate language em ployed, that no woman possessed of feminine delicacy could mingle in politics, or go to the polls. I do not believe in the corrupting tendency of political duties, or associations, but if wli't is said,'be true, it furnishes all equally strong reason, why men should abstain from every thing political, and fathers should exhort their sons, neither to handle nor touch the unclean thing. I do admit that there is much that is improper in political strife, and much that is unbecoming said, and done in political meetings, and at the polls, and this to mv mnind, furnishes the strongest proof of the necessi ty of woman's influence and presence, for men always behlave like barbarians, when deprived of the refining and moralizing influence of woman. I wish then to admit woman to political life, not to makewormani worse, but to make politics better of which it is con fessed there is somne necessity. At the present time, ladies can accernpany their husbands or fathers or brothers to church, or public aAesule s, oin ntta;v - ments, without fear of re ceivin g any offence or molestation, and I do not see why thev could not as safely accompany the sa m e person s to tit, b allot boxa I do sot suppose that the ballot box is the sole panacea for all the sufferings to which woman is exposed; for she suffers from social, as well as from political wrongs. She ought to be admitted by custom, to receive an equal education, with her brother man; and various kinds of profitable employment ought to be opened to her, from which she is now bv custom excluded; but for such evils this convention cannot directly provide no remedy, we may however, restore to her, the rights of which she has heretofore been deprived; with suchl] intention I shall vote for the motion. Mr. WOODBURY demanded the yeas and nays, whlich were ordered, and resulted, yeas 7, nays 72, as follows: YzEs-Messrs. Cook. Gray, Perkins, Stebbins, Stickney, Townshend and WVoodbury-7. NAYs -Messrs. Anrdrews, Archbold, Barbee,Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chaney, Collings. Curry, Dorsey, Florence, Forbes, Giliett. Greene of Defiance, Green of R~oss. Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootmnan, Horton, Humphreyville, Hunt, Hunter, John - son, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirlkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwlll, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, 1/anon, Mason. Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, McCormiick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Quigley. laiid, Smith of Wyanddt, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swift Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Wilson, Worthington and President-72. So the anmenidment was rejected. .Ir. TAYLOR moved to further amend the Report by adding as an additional section the following: SECTION 7. The General Assembly shall have pow er to extend the right of suffrage to inhabitants of this State not hereby qualified as electors. Mr. BARNETT of Preble moved the previous question. The question then being "Shall the main question be now put. It was agreed to. The question then being on Mr. TAYLOR'S amend — ment, Mr. TAYLOR demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered'and resulted yeals 11, nays 68, as follows: roll, Cahill,Chamrsbers. Chaney, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hamitton, Hard, Hawkiiis, Henderson, hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootmani, Horton, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirli wood, Lawrence, Larwill. Leechi, Lead better, Lidey, Lcondo-, MarionD Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCormick, N;sh, Pecl, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanibery, Stanton, Steklbins, Stilwell, Stickinoev, Thompson of Stark, Vaince of Butler, Wnarren, Wilson, W orthing ton and President-66. So the motion to strike out was rejected. Mr. WOODmBURY moved to further amend the repor t, by striking on; the word, "i malae," where i t occurs in the f ir s t section. Mr. TOWNSHEND. Mr. Presid eint, notwithlstantd ing the manies t ialpatienc of the a Convention, I will totake a remark or two before givi no my votet on the motion of thie genitleniat from t Ashtabulae to strike out the w or d male. It is known to gentlemen that many petitions have been presented to this body asking that feiiiles may be permi tte d t o exe rcis e the right of suffrage. Their petitions have bee,l signed bv several hundred ladies, th e p r ecise nouibe, of thesi signatures I am no t able to state ill consequence of t he r esigna t ion of the chairman of th e coimmit tee to whonm they were entrusted They were o, sent frov se eral differevt counties, and set forth in a respectful ptid forcible manner the claims and wishes of the petri rolers. I believe Done of these petitions came froun; sc counties I have the honor to represent, but I ba:e the happiiess to be acquainted with many ladies who e-:::.rtaia similar views, and I take this occasion to say tidat I know of none who are more refined or miore iiteli'lgent, nor do I know of any who more faithfully discharge all the duties that pertain to their famnilies and homt- os. I shall not repeat wh;,t I have heretofore said of the injustice of limitations of the riglht of suffrage. I will only say tihat worman l,as, by nature, rights as numerous and as dear as smian She shares equaliv with man nu all te rights that pertain to our common humanity, and therefore has the same or an equal interest in all that pertains to civil governmenet. I say further that she is inaii's eoqual in intelligence and virtue, arid is therefore as we!t qualified as man to share in the responsibilities cf government; and I can see no justice in making her ierly a subject of governiteut, rather than a party to it, especially if she desires such participation. I know it is sbid that woman is even now represent, ed, and that her interests are safer iil the hands of fathers, husbands, brothers and sonls, than they could be in her own. If this is true, how coties it to pass that woman is inow, iil this enlightlened age and in this Christian country,subject to so mianry legal disabilities. Every one knows, or oughlit to know, that under the common law, womani has scarcely any legal existence, and under sot re circumstances, her rights of person and property are utterly disregarded. If womtnan's interests have suffelred so much, even in the hands of fathers and brothers, I think it is high time they were entrusted to hier owo keeping. We hear it said, that woman's sense of prot r ety would be outraged by giving to her political rights; 1 would respectfully suggest, that women themselves are t h e best judges of hhatcomperts with fe isiale propriety, and I see no difficulty or inconveilience in leavilig the matter entirely to their own taste, and sense of duty. Leav e ou t the word male, then those ladies who think proper, can go to the polls, and those who do brot choose to go, can stay at lone, ill this respect placing them on the same ftmoisig with ourselves. I know it is also said, that there is something so essentially bad an3 corraptilg in politics, atl,, especi ally that at the places of hlolditlg elections, such angry passions areI YaAS-Messrs. Andrews, Cook, Gray, Hum phret Ile, Hue. ter, Otis, Perkins, Swift, Taylor, Townsheni an d Woo rdbury-11. NAYs —Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Gahiil, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking Chariey, Collings, Curry,, Dorsey, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Green 6f Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hartd, Hawkins, Hellderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Ilolt, Hootman, Horton, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lareht, 555 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, FEBRUARY 10. e Mr. McCORMICK presented apetition from S. Bartlett, a nd eighteen other citizens of Ieockieg and Vintoncounties, praying that a clause be inserted in the new Constitutioni, prohli.i'iii)g the Legislature from passing any laser legaliz'n,, traffic ill spirituous liquors. Which, onj motion, was lal on the table. Repor t numiber one of the Commr-ittee onl the Preamble and Bill of Rights, was rea,d the third time. The question thea being on the passage of the Report, Mr. STANBERY moved to re-commnit to the Corn rmittee that reported it, with instructions to strike out 'of section two, the f(ilowing- words: "And no special privileges or immunities shall ever be granted, iiijurious to the public, and which cannot reasonably be enjoyed 1) all." lMr. REEMELIN deiii,[anPde-d a division. The question tlen. being on re committing the Re Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mason, 'Mitchell, Morehead, IlcCloucd, Mc(,ormi~ick, Nash, Peck, (luiglev, Piddle, Sauwyer, Scott of HIarrison. Scott of Au a glaize, Seller-s,''-iith of Highland, S.nith of WVyandot, Stanbery. Stanton, ) tcbbins, Stilwell, Sticknirey, Thompson of Starkl, Vance of Chalimipaign, Warren, Wilson, Worthington and President-68. So the ame ndmeneit was rejected. The question then being on ordering the Report to be engrossed; it wag agreed to. An d on motion ordered to be read the third time on Monday the 1 tt it Ist. On inotion of Mr. NASH the Convention adjourned. ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVENTH DAY. MONDAY Feb. 10, 1851,) 9 O'CLOCK A. M. ~ Mr. HITCHTICOCK, of Cuyahoga, asked and ob tairied leave to record his vote on the motion to strike out the word "white," in the first section of the Re eort of the Co m mnittee on the Elective Franchise and is name being called, he voted " nyea. " Mr. BLICKEiNSDERFER asked and obtained leave to record his ovotee on the several mo tions to strike out t he words "whte and "male," in t he first sec tio n o f th e Report of the Committee on the Elective Franchise,d and his name being called, he voted " nay" on both motions. f Messrs. SMdITH of Hillland, LARSH, and BLAIR, asked and obtmained leale to record thei r vo tes on th e motion to strmike out the word "white;" in the first section ofRer n the R eport ont utie Elec tive Franchise, and their names being sev erally called, they voted "nay." Mr. HOLMES presented a petition from A. M. Robinson, and twenty-three other citizens of Hamilton coutan rnty, and from S ignr Elliot, and tw elve other citi zens of Cl ermont county, a sking tha t a clause be i ncorporate(l in the new Constitution, prohibitinug the Legislature forom passing any law legalizing traffie in sp~iritutoA liquors. Referred to the Select Conmm ittee o n the subjec t o f retailing ardent spirits. Mr. RIDDLE presenated a memorial from Rees E. Price, praying that a clause be inserted in the new Constitution, secur ing to women their rights. R e ferred to the Committee on Miscellaneous Subj ects and Propicisitions. Mr. GILLETT presented sundry petitions from J. H. Ross, and tforty-three other citizens of Lawrence county, praying that a shctlamse be inserted in the new Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from p assiig any la,w leffalizing traffic in spirituous liquors. Ref erred to the Select Committee on the subject of retailing a rdent spirits. Mr. COOK presented a petition fromn H. Hoover, and fifty-eight other citizens of Stark and Portage counties, on the same subject. Which, on motimn, Nwas ]aid on the table. Mr. LEADBETTER presented a petition from Win. Crow, and twenty-seven other citizens of Holmes county, on the salve subject. Which, on motion, was laid on the table. Mr. MITCHELL presented a petition from Philo Doolittle. and two hundred and thirty-eight other citizens froim_ Knox county, on the same sublect. Which, on motion, was laid on the table. ,Mr. BROWN, of Carroll, presented a petition from Michael Clark, and twenty-four other citizens of Knox county, praying that the new Constitution may define the basis of government; leaving banking corporations and the sale of ardent spirits, to be acted upon bv the people. Referred to the Committee on Miscellaneous Subjectts and Propositions. port, Mr. STANBERY. T]Iis aimeudmentt was adopted by a large majority of the Convetntioi, and without discussion. As a mere abstractioni it is right, and if it simply declared a principle or an abstract truth, there could be no serious ojecii'tio. BLut, sir, I am very much mistaken if this provisi,on is not something more thanl has been suippos,ed. It is, or may be, construed to hbe an express linitation upon the leg islative powve. The a!~listractioIn is to becom-ie a living rule, in a most ihrposiiif forn, in the very form which ought to be the nrost. guiarde(],d aniid clearly defined. "No law shall be pa.sE;ed conferring any p-rivilege or immunity upon a py person or persons, inurious (o the public and ashict canuot rea0:onably be enjoyed by all." Now wClno is to juudge ofwrhethaer ainyo law mday be obnoxious to tmii,o obojection? The judicial authority -the courts -anid they are t o de cide upon a vague generality. The sTljwhole field of jred dyt 01 nt and opsinion as to the good or lead tendejey (of,ihe law, is subm itted to the senlimited a itn ocrpietionH of the Ju idges. Observe,, si, that the lnality Tea is pot ccisply ade sory r caiutioniary. It is not treat ]atii ought not to be passed o f thins description, but thliat such ls shall- not be p as sed., In all other limitations upon tLe law making pw01er.sne as eat an approach to a certain rule is made as is possible. Just as little is left to mere opinion or discretion as possible. Wfe say, f or ilst.hoa1ce, that no retroactive la w shall be: pad,tsed-ithat is no law shall operat te om the pas t. We say aai that no law shall be passed to iimipair the validi- a — of contracts. That seenis a certain rule, and yet in- both these cases, great difficulty has been fault ill settling the true construct,ion of the apparently definite limiiitlations upon legislative power. Now some say that this a vague aniid unmeaning generality. That is precisely the reason for not adopting it as a limnitation' uponi legislative power. It gives too great a license to the judiciary, too ample scope and verge. The judges canl mould it and apply it as they see pro,ei —ignorantly or corfuptlyThey become in effect a counci of censors. A law made by the -numerous and iranmediiate representatives of the people, must iass in review before a bench of four judges, elected for long terns, -who are to exercise an unlimited discretioni as to its character and tendency. The; amendment.. does not declare all laws conferrinig privileges aind "iiin:mntliiities lncolstitution, al. On the contrary it proceeds upon the idea that such laws may be paSssod. If the law is lnot injurious to the people it, is to be valid, but if ihjurious it is to be unconstitutional. After the lai is passed, after the representatives of the people have decided that it 556 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 10. is wholesome and beneficial, it then must be submit- a-e injurious to the interest of the public, acd as such ted to the courts, who are to say whether it is good or would be coniprehetilded-for instance, thie exemption bad, whlolesome or injurious. That is the very point from taxation of the money of the citizen.s of the State which it is the peculiar function of the immediate rep- invested in her stocks-the privileges which some in. resentatives of the people to decide, and which they corporated companies have to be taxed in a pecualiar and cin decide more satisfactorily than the Judiciary. unequal niode. These are special privileges-they are Mr. REEMELIN was opposed to the amendment. injurious to the people, and they cannot be enjoyed by Gentlemen had conspired to knock the Repeal ques- all; and it is such, that the clause will reach. To pretion oiut of the Bill of Rights, and now they were vent the Legislature, therefore, fromn conferriig such ashamed of the club they had used for the purpose. hereafter, hlie was in favor of retainling the I-rovision as resides the act would justify the sneers of the Ohio it is. S,tate Journal, whose editors asserted that they could Mr. STANBERY said that the gentleman fromin Richiot tell what the Constitution was to be, because that land, [Mr. KiawRKooD,] hai cited the privileges of attorwhich was put in on one day was struck out on the neys.,jurors, &c., from arrest, as among those privileges next. that were not noxious. He would ilnquire if there was He thoulght the position of the gentleman from any guaranity that the courts would take that view of F'ranktlin, (MNr. STANBERY,) would hold good against the subject, or that they would not thiiilk otherwise? the old, as well as the new Bill of Rights. That ar- Mr. KIRKWOOD said that it would undoubtedly be tile is in many respects a limitation of the legisla- for the courts to say. For his own part, he hlad a tive power. The clause sece.iin? the person -the great deal of confidence in the courts, anad was willing clause restricting imprisonment for debt-the clause to leave the matter with them. lie did nlot believe ecturing the freedom of the press, ald many others they would decide against sound policy. arelimitations of the legislative power. He was wil- Mr. RANNEY was opposed to strikiitg out. We Link to put this power in the hands of the courts, and coiimenced by assertinu the principle that al' special klietevin the principle to be a salutary one, hlie hoped privileges and immunities shall be undL(-er the control of they would take it as a hint to look int;o it, that there the people of the State, but gentlenmen had dwindled us :iay not be special privileges or immunities in exist- down to saying that the General Asseiibly sall not nce which ought to be abolished. grant them. Now, when we bave voted for t!;it propo Mr. NASH said the propositioli had been voted in sition, and hoped they would be satisfie,i and thought ni Friday, without an examination into its meaniin, though we had secured [at little, that little was better ,-r any general understandin, of its terms. Tlhere than nothing, they want to strike out the woe. as a difference in opinion, argong gentleimen as to He hoped it would not be done. You cannot touch its meaniilg. The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. special privileges without bringing them all out in op) :- Ix.T,) says that it means nothing. If it mneans position. They even doubt whethe(r the Legislature rothin'l, it ought to be voted out. No man of sense mnav not create special privileges that are njurious. He wVill consent to leave a clause in the Constitution that believed the people would eventually c)rnLe to the :;rj7eans nothing. point, that the Legislature actinig under tie inflieice But it may mean something-and if it means ally- of the [)opul ir seitimnelt, would grout c ci prii I ~~~~~~~~~~~~~leges whatever. hiltnu it goes farther than the getitleman, or aiiy oue leges whatever. eise, wishes to go. It will have no effect in the direc- r LAWILL hoped the loil to itut on tMrevi. LAR ie beopeed the mo-,tionIl ito i.thue time, ioa gentlemen upon the other side seem to have in. lt prevail ie believed the questn t the ti I nesoodreai. Itwa presievted teqelo, ati the trime? tended, on corporations-for that matter is fullv provd te prided foX, iii arnotler article of the constitutioi,'wvi,,..ciples it contained fairly stated. He oped ino more ofcours, will goveri in all those matters But it may time would be consumned in voting provisiols into the Cntitewuti onsuaed thn voting te pouvi~iosinto [lewa refer to somrnettrig else, and 1 ask thile attention of Constitution ad the vtig them out agi was tlcml to another view of the subject "No spe surprised to see genltlemen rise in their l1aices and say ;,zial p-rivileges or immunities shall ever be granted, iat privleges or ininuilities Shall ever be graute that they lhad not understood the questiocl presented to wihich are injurious to the people, and which cannot ten If such should become the practice it would masonably beenjoyed by all" Now, what privilege or leave rienbers not acquainted with the principles of min iity ay h granted, which it is iot ir. the pow-I the law in frequent ani unpleasant dilemsmas. We have ir of others to, pomaseis?s ti rvlg? Iax t is got but a part of what we asked or, but have determin,>etir ofic others bto possst Wl,iay isd a pivieg oiimethling wiuic one, but not all, iiay hold. If it P-ed to be content with it. He hoped the ameindment were holdeu bv all, it could not be a privilege. What would iot prevail Mr. MANON said he voted against the amendWhat, then, is the eff:'ct? It cuts off forever from the .f~tasfi hel5 ij Lly ~ct? I cus orfoverfrm te Imlt,under theo operationeofa rule whiche hse had adopts .Iglature- the power to exempt any property from e ed, and which he had before declared in the Convenasixa gntieo I to go through at l the ralnficailns of tion which he did not understand. e should now, for 1aski giintleme,,n to go throug,h al,l the ram~ifications of ,.le legisilative powe,r, antd see where this will fall. A bef legiaiive power, cud see where this will fai. A Ithe samtie reason vote for the recommitment. He did Lieeise to keep a ferryvto keep a public house —to sell not understaid ti e provisio. Mn IC I Kof uneastanwold vtie fortheion goods at atuction-are tall special priviieges, which cani Mi HITC HCOCK of Geauga, would vote for tihe not be enjoyed by all. Thie effects maiy be iiiitneamoa- n ot e ejyed by al. The effects may be iluna recommitment, and hoped it would prevail; not so sues cuad as augerous as theyr are nuimerouls. rilmuch however for the sake of the instructions of the Mr. KftPKW0OD wouild vote for reta.iniulg the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. STANaERY,) for he did clause ini the biil of rights, because he believed not oetl not much fear the danger apprehended by hille. The teat it meanit semletliiiitg hult that it had a propermean roisioli he desired to strike out was a mere abstract iug. As he understood it, there were certain specil prlcifle, atid is correct as it is stated. He so underpriviluges and immunlities which, although enijoyed by stood thatgentleman to believe. a p~ortioti if the people, wen neot ilij~les to the 1uh But he should vote for the reconimitment for the Li fitt~erest. Ior instane, tile exemption freni arrest purpose of niakiug another amenidment. He had once f in~eutbe~rs of t~he General Assemhly,judges, jurors, before made a motion fettle purpose, but it had been and attorlnys, duriiig the time of their atteldanee upon voted down why he dil not see. He thought the Contheir public duties. Such exemptions would not be veution had beea travelling backward ilsteid of foraffacted by thes clause: But there are others, which ward in regard to the liberty of the press and the law 567 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- MONDAY, FEIBRUARY 10. of libel. The law now is, that the truth may be given' fers upon the courts the right to determine upon th in evidence on a charge for a libel, and the truth so constitutionality of a law, on the ground of its expe given in evidence is a defence. But what are we say- diency. He had heretofore known courts refuse to do ing? That the truth shall not protect the publisher. cide such questions, on the ground of public policy We will punish him for pulbishing the truth, unless he They were accustomed to say that they could onl can show, not only that it is the truth, but that it was settle the question of constitutionality, leaving that ot published forjustifiableends. He had said that the law policy and expediency to the legislature; and there i as it is, is tenfold more liberal than this Constitution. not a single example in the world where a constitution He wanted thiis amendment to be made, and therefore has transferred to the judiciary, the right to decide the should vote for the commitment. question of expediency alone. To do so would be to Mr. HOLT said he should vote for the recommit- sanction an appeal from the legislative to tie judicia meut, not with the instruc ions proposed by the gen- power. It would place those two functions in position tleman fromFranl lin,but with such as had been indicate- hostile to each other, and provide what would be to al ed by the geitleriani from Geauga, at least so far as to iltents and purposes a judicial veto upon the acts of provide that the pubhication of truth for justifiable the General Assembly: ends, should protect the publisher irrespective of his Again, under this provision, a law mray be passed sal motives. He would vote for recommitment for a fur- utary in its effects, and in no respect injurious to the tiler reason. He wished to propose a section to the public; but, in the progress of events, circumstances bill of rights in the following form. may arise, which may give rise to a claim that it is or, It being among the appropr;iate powers, and duties eratiig unequally and injuriously to the public. In such appertaining to the legislative department, to deter- a case will genttlemen e' pect ajudi( iary to set aside a law mine whether any business be injurious to the public after it has been in operation ten or twenty years? It we'fare, the General Assembly have power to suppress is not clear to my own mind, but under this provision, the pursuit of any business when found to be so inju- a law might not be set aside upon such ground, and o.r rious, whether pursued by individuals or by corpora- reasons arising subsequently to its enactment. It tions in virtue of their corporate charter. But when- seems to me that there can be 1no objection, at least to ever the pursuit of any business shall be so suppressed, make this provision clear, that there niay be no doubt it ought to be done in suchl manner and accompanied as to what it does actually mean. with suech provisions, not in the opinion of the General Mr. LARW' ILL moved a call of the Convention, Assembly inconsistent wit-hthe public welfare! as shall which was ordered, and Messrs. Archbold, Case of do the least damage to the individuals or corporations Licking, Clark, Ewing, Groesbeck, Harlani, Morris, pursuing such business. Norris, Patterson, Roll, Scott of liarrisoni, Smithl of Mr. COLLINGS said that certainly next to the Highland, Sinith of Warren, Struble, Swan, Way and framing of a good constitution, there could be n hligh- Wil!iams were found absent. er object to be sought, than to construct one which On motion of Mr. McCORMICK, all further pro wvould do away with all difficulties of construction. ceedings under the call were dispensed wvith. iHeshould vote for the reconmmitment, because. in the The question then being on recommitting the Reclause contemplated by the motion of the gentleman port: from Franklin, [Mr. STANBERY, ] there was nothing Mr. CHAMBERS demanded the yeas and nays, definite in the opinions of gentlemen in regard to its which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 50, nays40, as construction; and he was not satisfied in his own min,. follows: thiat any of them were correct. It is true, as gentle- YE-s-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, m,-n have said, that it is within the province of tlhe Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown courts, to give construction to the constitution as well f Athens, Brown ot Carroll, Case of Lickin ChamberE, as, to the las Collin gs, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewcrt, Floreace% as to the laws; but where difficulties are apparent, they Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ros., Hamiltoi, Hawkins_ should be provided against here. This provision is Hitchcock of Ctiyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Horton, said to be restrictive upon the Legislature as well as Johnson, Kennon IKing, Larsh, Lawrence. Leech, Leadbettei, U?i,,,i,~ Lilt...-,:;' u', tile,,,os IIoCaISi Itle weo dlepart. Q:(ll tiit 1:0)1)5b; 00sf i i Oi l tHighiand, Stalibery. Stanton, Stilwell, Vance,ot inents are different. To the General Assemlt))y is del- Champaign, Warren, and Worthington-5,t. egated the legislative, to the courts the judicial pow- SAYs-Messrs, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Farr, Forbes, Greene er. Whose province shall it be, to determine what of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Holm,es, lootman, Humphreville laws are for the general good? Is it not so clearly Hunt, Hunter, Jones, Kinkwood, Larwill, Liiecy, Loudon, McCormick, Orton, IPerkinis, Ouigle~y, Rann,ey, Reemelinll within the legislative province, that no court will Cormick, Orton, erkis, uigle, Raney, eemeli undertake to dece uo sh,, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Au,glaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyever undertake to decide upon such a question? Will andot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Swilt, Taylor,'I'hompso courts ever undertake to say that a grant by the of Shelby, Thompson of Stark,'Townshend, Vanac of Butler, Legislature is injurious to the people? It is verv im- Woodbury and President-40 probable ihat any court call be induced to say that a So the motion to recommit was adopted. law passed by the General Assembly is impolitic, is The question then being on the motion of Mr. STA.injurious to the people, and therefore is void. In view sERY, to instruct: of all these difficulties, and differences of opinion, ihe Mr. STANBERY, on leave, withdrew dils motion. should vote for the recommitment. Mr. MANON moved that the committee be instrue Mr. MASON wished briefly to bring to the attention ted ta amend the Report, in section two of the sane, of the Convention an amendment wnich he proposed by inserting, after the word "granted," the following to offer to the amendment of the gentleman from Frank- words: lin,[Mr. STANBERY.] He desired to amend the proposi- "' Which, inl the opinion of the General Assembly, tion as it stands, by inserting after the word "granted," are." the words, "which in the opinion of the General As- On which motion, Mr. LARWILL demanded the sembly, are," so that it would read, "No special privil- yeas and nays, which were ordered, axd resultedeges or inimunities shall ever be granted, which, in the yeas 39, rays 5~, as follows: opinion of the General Assembly are injurious to the YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, people, and which cannot reasonably be enjoyed by I Barnett of Preble, Bat-s, Blennett, Blickensderfer, hrown of all-" He would not say that this would satisfy all, Athens, Brown o! Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chamblhers C(,t but it would remove the ambiguity- of the section, as it ti. l ings;ook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Flu tence,Gillett, Grahama buW itanoulds.emove Ithe wasbiguityo th es e ct~on, as it } ~y, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hitchcock of: Coyah oga, now stands.: It was the opinion of many, that it con- i Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Larsh, Mason, M~;C!0~, 558 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FErRUARY 10. On which motion, Mr. STILWELL demanded the veas and nays, which were ordered, aDnd rcsulted-yeas 24, na-ys 60, as follows: YEAS,-Messrs, Chancy, Dorsey, Ewart, Greene of Defiance Holmes, Hoe man, Hunt, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leald better, Manon, Norris, Orton, Riddle, Sawyer, Selleis, Stick cLey, Stidger, Thiompson of Shelby, Townshend, Vance tf Butler, Wilson and Woodbury —2. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of l'reble, Benniett, Blair, BlicWiensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Colis, Coolk. Curry, Cutler, Farr, Flo rence, Forbes, Graham, Gray. Green of Ross, Gregg, Ham ilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahogas, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lidey, Mason, Mitchell, McCloud, Sash, Otis, Quigley. Ranney. Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of VWarren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbits, Stilwell, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thonmpson of Stark, Vance of Cham paign, W~arren, Worthington and President-r, S,o the motion was rejected. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, moved the previous question. The question then being, shall the main question be now "put."!t was agreed to. The question then beil)g on striking out, all after the word, "afternoon," in the resolution. Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 32, nays 57, as fol lows: YEA9-Messrs, Blickensderfer. Curry, Cutler. Ewart, Hawh-ins. Henderson. Hootmant, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson Jones, Laish, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Manon Mason, Mitchell, Nash, N'orris, Orton, Reemein, Riddle Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Wyandlot, Stanbery, Stidger, Townshend, Vance of Champaign and Worthing ton —32. NA,ys- — Messrs. Andlews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blair, Brown, of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, (ase of Hocking, Chambers, Chaney, Coilings Cook, Dorsey. Farr, Florecice, Forbes, Graham, Gray,:Greene of DE-fiance, Gre ag, Hamilton, Hard, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Horton. J-funter, Kenunon, King, Kirkwool, Lidey. London, Morehead, McCloutl, Otis, Quigley, Ranney. Sawyer, Scott of HIaraison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Warren, Stanton. Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of "helby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler. Warren, Wilson, Woodbury and President-57. So the motion to strile out was rejecte(7. The question then being on the adoptioni of the resc, lutioii. Mr. MANON demanded the yeas, and nays, which were ordeed, and resulted, yeas 58, nays 32, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Blair, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Case of Hocki'g, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Curry, Clutler, Farr, Flor ence, Forbes, Graham, Gray, Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, IHitchlcock of Geauga, Holt, Hoitoni. Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Kennon, Kinlg, Kirkwood, Lidey. Loudon, Maso, cloud, Nlash, Otis, Quigley, Ranney, Saw%yer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers Smith of Warren, Smibh of Wyandot, Stanton, Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thomr)pson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Wilson -nd Presidlent-57. NAys-Messrs. Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Dorsey, Ewait, Greene of Defiance, Holle-s, Hootmani Johnson, Jones, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Manon, Mitchell, Morehead, Norr,is, Orton, PReen,,elin, Riddlel Scott of Harrison, Sni h of Highland. Statlhery, Stebbins, Stldger, Thompson of Shelby, Townshend, V.nce of (ham - paign, Woodlbury anad Worthington —'. So the resolution was adopted. Mr. NASH submitted the following which was agreed to.S "Resolved, That the PRESIDENT fill the vacancy in the Coirn. mittee on the Preamble and Bill of Sights, ocerl.aoned by the resignation of Mr. VsNcP-, of Butler.' MoThe PRESIDENT appointed Mr. VANCE of But. ler, to fill the vacancy occasioned by his resignation. Mr. SAWYEPR moved that the committee of the Whole, be discharged from the further considerationa of Nagh, Otis, Peck, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, ,Sta:~ton, Stilwell, Vance of Butler, Vance of Champaign and Warren-39 ,NAYS-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey, Farr, Forbes, Gireene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunter, Hunt, John son, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormnick,)rton, Perkins, Quigley.'anney,Reemelin, I iddle, Scott of Auglaize, S ellers, oSmith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidg-er,,Swift, Taylor, Thompson of ihell,y, Thlompson of Stark,'I'owt,,shend, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and Presitdent-52. port. Mro ANDREWS moved to lay the Report on the table, which was agreed to. Mr. LEECH submitted the following: g(eso!red, That the Standing Committee on the Preamnble and Bill of Rights be instructed to amenid their Report as follows: strike out all after the word'press,' And insert, in lieu tlheraof, the following: "In all prosecutions for any publication respecting ;he official conduct of men in at public capacity, or when the matter published is proper for public iniformiatioin, the truith thereof ma) always be given in evidence, and in all indictments for libels the jury shall :favo a right to determine the law and the facts under thl directioos of the court, as i n other cases." M. AlMANON moved that the Convention resolve tself into a Committee of the Whole, which was dis-reed to. The question then being on the adoption of the resilution: Mr. THOMIPSON of Shelby moved that the resolu/on be laid oni the table, which was disagreed to. The qu estion then being on the adoption of the. res.eiutioru3s Mr. SAWYER moved the previous question. The question then lfeing-Shtll the main question - Elow put? it was agreed to. The question then being oni the adoption of the res9-lutiolne Mr. [EtC[I demanded the yeas and niays, whichi -ere ordered, and resulted~-eas 43, niays 4G, as fol-a w.C, ~s,s —Messrs. Barnett of Preble. Bennett, Blair. Brown f Athens, Brown of Carroll, Caseof lHocking, Chambeis, hantey. Collin,s, Cut ler, Do rsey, Farr, Florence, Forbes rayGregg Hlami lton, Htard, Hend erson, Hitchcock of ,uy&hoga. hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hootmnan, Horton, ohnson, Larsh, Lawrence Leech Leadbetter, Mitchell, Mcqoud, Quigley, Reemelin, Sawyer, Stanbery, Stilwell. Tayor, Townosheno, Vance of Butler, Vance of Champaign, -.ilsoni, Worthington and President —43. NAys-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, :lickensderfer, Cahill, Cooli. Curry, Ewart, Graham, Greene f Defiance Green of Ross, Ha,wkins, Holmes, Humphreville, 'unt, lunter, Jones, Kennon, King, K-irkwood. Larwill, ."dey, l,oudon, Manon, Alason, AMorehead, Nash, Norris, ;rton, Perkins, Rainey, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Scott ~ Auglaize. Sellers, Smith of Highlanid, Smith of Warren, ;mith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, -Sticklley, Stidger, t.ruble, Swift, Warren and Woodbury —:0. So the resolution was rejected Mr. ST'ILWELL submitted the following: Rstsolved, That after this day, until otherwise ordered, .,en this Conven,tion takes a recess it shall he until alf-past two o'clock in the afternooli, and when it ijourns, it shall be until half-past eight o'clock in the ,orning. ,r. LARSH moved to amend the resolution by stri. i""g out all after the word "afternoon." Mr. LAWRENCE moved that the Convention reol~ ilmelf into a committee of the Whole. I s 559 So the motion to instruct was rejected. e.port Nainber One of the Committee on the Electiv, Franchise was read the third time. The question then beiiig on the passage of the Re OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 10. SEc. 4. Each House shall be the judge of the elections, re turns and qualifications of its members. A nmaijority of all the members elected to each House. shall be a quorum to de business, but a smaller number may adjourn lrom day to day, and compel the attendance of absent members in such man ner, and under such penalties as shall be prescribed by law. SEc. 5. Each House shall, except as otherwise provided in this Constitution, choose its own cers. ach House may determine its own rule of proceedlings, puni-h its mem bers for disorderly conduct, and with the concurrence o two-thirds, expel a member, but not the second time for thee same cause; and each House shall have all other r owers nec-. essary to provide for its safety, and foi the undisturbed trans action of its business. SEC. 6. Each House shall keep a correct Journal of its. proceedings, and take efficient mieans to publish the same. The yeas and nays shall, at the desire of any two members be enwered upon the journal, and on the passage of every bil in either House, the vote shall be talken by yeas and nays, ann entered upon thejournal, and no law shall be passed in either House, without the concurrence of a majority of all the mem bers elected thereto. SEC. 7. The printing of the laws, journals, bills and allt legislative docuner.ts and papers for each branch of the Gern eral Assembly, together with the printing required for the executive department, and other ol? ccrs of State, shall he let ol contract to the lowest responsible bidder, by such execu tive officers, and in such mode and manner as shall be pre scribed by law. Mr. LEECH moved to amend the report by striking out the seventh section. The question then being on striking out, Mr. LEECH said. The matter embraced in this section had been referred to a select committee cf three, and it was the intention of that committee to report in favor of the election of a State Printer by the people. If such should be the will of the Con vention, gentlemen would see the propriety of strik ing out this section. It was, however, for the Corn veition to determine whether the printing should he farmed out, or the office of Printer created, and made elective. He was decidedly in favor of the latter course, in order to do away;vith the wrangling upon this subject in the General Assembly. Mr. CHAMBERS hopedl the amendmclent would not prevail. He had no desire at all to put the people tK the trouble of electing a State Printer; flr, if the office of State Printer was thus created, his compensa tion would have to be provided by law. He would prefer the more economical course of lettiig out the printing to the lowest responsible bidder. It wa also an object with him, not only to econromise in this matter, and to dispense wvith the vexatious electioneering campaign, but also to disconnect this business entirely from the subject of politics. For these and other reasons, unnecessary now to be assigned, he preferred to retain the section in its present shape. The question being now taken upon the motion to strike out, it was lost —yeas 36, nays40. No further amendment being offered to this section, the CHAIRMAN proceeded to read the succeeding - tions, as follows: SEe. 8. Any member of either House shall have the right to protest against any act or resolution thereof, and such protest and the reasons therefor, shall, without alteration commitment or delay. be entered upon thle journal SEc. 9. All vacancies which may appen i eit.er House,shall be filled by election, as shall be directwd by law. SEC. 10 Senators and Representsti-ves, s halt in ill cases, exc e pt treason, lelony or breach of tbs seaee be privilege t from arrest, during the session of the Glynera Assel, arw in going to and returning from the saue, an! Ot aly speech or debate in either Hlouse, they shall not be questioned in any other place. SEe. 11. The proceedings of both Houses shall be public, except in cases, which, in the opinion of two-thirds of those present require secrecy. SEC. 12. ~either House shall, without the consent ot the other, adjourn for more than two days, Sundays excluded, nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shaic be in seseson. SEC, 13, Bills may originate in either House, but may be altered, amen ded or rejected in the other. Sec. I4. Every bill shall.be fully and distinctly read, on three different days, unless in case of urgency, three-fount the report of hee committee on the Legislative Department. On which motion, Mr. WORTHINGTON, demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 35, nays, 53, as follows: YzssMessrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey, Far,. Forbes, Greene of Deanc, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootmaa, Jones, King, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, Ma itc hell, Orton, Ran. ney, Reemelin, ridt.le, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, S ellers, Smith of'"'yandot Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Wilson, Woodbury and President-35. NAYS-Messrs Alrlrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates. Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hoclking, Ctiambers, Collings, Cool;, Curry, Cutler, Ewart Florence, G,ay. Green of Ross, Greg-g, Hamniltcn, Hard, Hawkin~, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchsock of rGea,uga, Horton, Humphre-ville, Hunter, Johnson, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larsh. l,awrence,Leech,Leadbetter, .Marion, AMason, Morebeadl, MIcCloudi, Nash, Nor is, Otis, Quigley, Scott of Harrison, Sm.ith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanlbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby. Thoerp-son cf Stark, Vance of Champaign and Worthitngton —53. So the motion was rejected. On motion of Mr. CHAMBERS, the Convention took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. Messrs. Green of Ross, Smith of Warren, Graham, Norris, and Tlhompson of Shelby. asked and obtained leave to record their votes on the motion to strike out the word'"white," in the first section of the report of the committee on the Elective Franchise, and their names being called, they severally voted "nay." Upon the motion of Mr. SAWYER, the'onvention resolved itself into a committee of the whole, [Mr. HORTON- in the Chair,] and took up the report of the cotmmittee on the Legislative Department, (No. 2,) submitted by the Chairman, [Mr. SAwvYrER,] on the 14th of January. On motion by Mr. SAWYER, the committee proceeded to consider the report by sections; and, accordingly, The C~IAIRMAN read the first section, which is as follows: nSic, 1. The legisla tiv e p ower of th is S tate shal t b e vested he a G eneral Assemblyu, whih shall consist of a S enate aynd House of Representatives. No ariendkin eig t being off" ered to this sect ion, the Chairman pro,ceded to read thae secon d section, as follows: SEc. 2. Senators and Representatives shall be elected biennially,bythe electors in the respective counties or districts, on the 2nd Tuesday of October. Their term of office shall be two years, to be computed from. the first day of January succeeding their e'e ction. Mr. STILWELL moved to amend this se ction by striking out the iaord oday," and inserting ien lieu thereof the wlrd "Monday," so that it would read r atfirmia tion, to stice tc. thousand dollars. lie believed that amo un t mi t cordi tg to law arl ec..i:ice. paso ~al. )e convicte be saved by the practice, on one section of tlhe canai. -ithiout a colicurrence i, tio-thi -ds o the Seats Juso hlow is the business done now?' When the Superin- i(es of the l'eace, anid i ounlty ait od.n'si. p of,efst, may ) tendent makes up his accounts, he makes a stateimentcb t.v 4tb z be of one, two or thtree hundred dollars expended fo'r re- crei'i pairs, and no body ca tell fromn his statermeit, where Psd ithot the money has gonc. or for lhaatit has been paid. He Ec tY- The'ici ietirist. Jdeof thAhrr~t~'ut,J s rl e ii.e toimehen, wanted to see a list of the nailles, with the sumis pa id itrat Jugs for aa) misderneaimr iii offtee, but judpiient shalk[ note to each. and then, if investigatlon becomes necessary, farther than removal frem eftce,i',t disqualifieat ol to hmt.c,. there is a place where to begin. As it ]ow is, it is aly office uf tru t, ioiori poi-L i tider thb,iftioi'.7 I said that the officer goes to a man who has performned tis tae; te arty, eheer cie or rot, sla;l, never work, and takes his receipt.'lhis he uses to setle ia tto la.t with the board, pllon which settlenmett he er aws. the Passed withoDut aete inonev. He tlti goes brack aniI pays the (money tothe Passed wlot anel ''c. 23. All reguts s he, A.wesseri.S ierson to whotli it is due. And there are said to have 8la caimence oli te firt,u iii Janury, biiilii'.et, v. ~~~~~~~shlla comwmence on;hle fir~st XM1m.duy#E in1 Janu~ary, bim.~n.;,alti, been instances, where untder thte pretence t'-tt tr e re aud the r-st essiox) ui eie0- sk-sl Codiiuleuct.'. ceipt ha.s been lost, a second one has hben tl'aen, which on the first Mlonday ot Jluary,. has also been used as a voucher to draw money fin Mr KIR d to aed te iegog has 41so been u s e v fi~o,,n Mr. KIRKWOOD, mnoved to amen~,td the fo;;egoi, n the treasury. lie wanted to see things done in a dif- section, by strikiig out all after the word t ieat feren.t manuIer, iand to have the names and sums pub- ly,I' and inserting in lieu titereof the followinglished and posted up, so that when it is said that A., B. IAfter tie first londay of Janary A53 until or C., has been paid so iiiuch, the facts of the case can which time the General Assembly siall meet on thn be traced out. first Monlday of January, alnnually.: Go into ttile counties of tile State; are noi all the re- Mr. K KWOO sid, tt iay ges t Mr. KIRKWOOD said, tiat traiiy,,haigei in h c,eipts and expenditures published? Even the cost of laws of the State would doubtless be required in Orde the paper, the pens ad the tsealing wax is set forth to to irovide for the alterations made il tie go'ci'cii,nen the world, to tile endi that nothing shall be c Aled by this onstituti,D and ie thought thatas a nliatter or covered up; and there caii be 110no valid reasont why of prudence and prectation, the Conventioni should the State itself should not follow the same ratioal provide for annual sessios for a year or two for that i),actice. purpose. Mr. N ASHsaid there was no doubt of the necessity of r BENN TT oud al the attti of ge ASH ~~~~~~~~~Mr. BEN NETT would call the ath'ention of genihe course contemiplatedl by the section, the only dif- tllien to this effect of tih amendment that as marn iculty being the expense cf the publicatiot, if made as hers of the General Assem-bly are only elected biena public document of the State. If the Legislature nialily. the members under this armendment, wo;uld sit should give the, constructio ititirmated by the gentle- duyiig twosessious. mant from Hamnilton, (Mr. RFEMELIN,) yesterdlay, there Mr. HUMP11REVILLE, was ot conviased of the vould be no difficulty. He tihought, perhaps, that thl necessity or propriety of the proposed amendment Legislature should appoint an officer to oversee these The Constiton will pluce in the hands ef the Gov accoutnts, as at present they were only made upi)n the ernor, the power to call ecIra sesion, wlenever they ero,tepwrt aletassioswhnerte OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-T j.ESDAY, FEBRU'ARY It. -re necessary, and it will be perfectly easy for him of sions all through, anidi had so voted. He had no desire the Legislat'ire, to understand, if they are needed. to do away with them now; but he did wish to provide te saw therefore, no propriety in providing for annual that if the Legislature should deem an extra session sessions for any uiamber of years. necessary, they could secure one to be called. A division of the question having been demanded, Mr. NASH. Cannot the amendment beso amended &tie question was first on strikingout, which was died- as to provide that extra sessions shall only be called ;agreed to; yeas'29, nays not counted. upon extraordinary occasions? Mr. NASH mouved to strike oat the whole of the Mr. NASHL. That is precisely what is meant by section, and insert, in lieu thereof the following: the terms of the amendment. The expression extra session, means nothing more nor less than a session ,this C4 stitutioa, shall be held on the first Monday of Janu- convened in some uncommon emergency. ary, 1815t ard biennially on the fir,t Monday of January Mr. COLLINGS would vote to strike out, and then thereafter, and at n u other time, tunless an extra session shalt perhaps would move an amendment to the amendment dirlebylaw,or otherwise, Vrvided for in this Con. of the gentle nan from Gallia, (Mr. NAsH,) providing that the first session should commence on the first day Mr. NASH said tlfre wa,; a provision very similar of January, 1852-, the second on the first day of Jan to the ameudnient hb had offered, in the present con- uary, 1853, and that the sessions thereafter should be etitution. It is:'The (Teni rl Assemibly shall meet biennial. 4sir the first',fonday of December, ia each year, and The question then being on striking out stction 23, at no *ther pmio. unless directed bh taw, or provider' the same was disagreed to. ti-r bv tili(enstilutioli." He -,aid ihe proposition of SEc. 14. No person, holding aiiy office under the authority 2,e gentleinua from Richland, [Mr. KzaxWOOD,] provi- of the United States, or any lucrative office, under the au d'iig for extra sessions far a limited time, had been thority of this State, shall be eligible as a candidate, or have woted down. That gentlenian I&,d claimed that there a seat in the General Assembly, provided that township offi,woatl be a p,-bable necessity for ainnual sessions fer cers, justices of the peace, notaries public, or officers of the militia, shall not be deemed lucrative offices. t~wo years, in erieer to adapt the laws to the require. Pse ihu nedet ,qi-n~c f tieii,wcon,4it~tien.Ife.parene sialiPassed without amendment. 'imenls of'the new coasltkatien. ff exrperience sha!h 5110w tlliat foainv l,trpose, a,nual sessions shall be re- 2SC. 25. No persoin shall be elected or appointed to any ,qaired, this amuendmiaent makes' provisisia that they affine in this State, unless he possesses the qualification "of ~qj~ed h s mkr provision thtat tthoy nay'{e holden. Tihe question is, alre we willing to an elet. ~trust the'G,eneral Assetmb-ly in fA,iis matter'. He for -onePasdwtotaedet rec. Hf. -0 person, who shall hereafter be convicted of a was willing that it should have the same power as at defalcation or embezzlement of the public funds, shall be capresenit so that if it shtal b deenied ntecessary to fix ttre paboe of holding any office of trust, honor, or profit, nor shall 4.he timrae, aud provide by law for ar x extra session, it any person, holding any public money, for disbursement or e therwise, have a seat in the General Assembly. until such ,r~ari be dene. There iaeveir was any incotivenieree ar, person sboall have accounted for, and paid into the Treasury, ,.sing from thi- power, and there never will be. all moi,,eys for which he may be accountable or liable. Mr. HAWKINS was not disposed to retract what Mr. S.AWYER moved to amend the section, in the di-d I!een already don,e in this ieatter. If to the Legis. first line, by striking out the words "defalcation, or," :iatuire it ie left te aiv, whent twere shall be an extra see- and inserting the word "an." :5ion ti-at body wii' hare the entire control of tie Mr. SAWYER thought the section complete, with,nabj —t If extra sefs/oasskaii be necessary, the Gov- c out the words. A man might be a mere defaulter, ,ruer no doubt can call tsem and he thought the duti withiotit any criminal act or intent. The public money snight lee safely eatr'used to htts d~scretion., may have been stolen from him. The crime lay in the Mr. REEMEL!N wo,Rld say to the biennial men, I intention, and he thought the word embezzlement that in this matter, he should vote according to their would express the intention of the convention. He wishes. He htd no doautt the ainendment of tke gen- had no desire to punish by disfranchisement, a man tieman from Nalli,ti[r. NAii, would obviate otie cf who had been guilty of no intentional offence. steuion:uit.e" Ciglu I l ~ ~ e Sir. P'~.LLNmv......,,..-o~ thou:ght such a discretion might safely be left with tile posed to be stricken out, by inserting the word "isltenGeaieral Assembly; and at timies it might be necessaro tional," before the word defaulter. and be, - fciiI Tiere miy be such a thing as a Gov- The question then being on the amendmiient of Mr. ,eror of diffreutt palities, from a ririjority in the Leg- REEMELIN. 4slatmae., who might feel an interes t in preventing the Mr. BENNETT thought if the gentleman from ,election of an United State*s Senater, for a year, aid Hamilton, (Mr. REraIELIN,) had reflected a momeni, with that view might refuse to call a session, when it before he offered his amendment, he would have found( was necessary for tkat purpose. Again, in case of a it unnecessary He believed the word "convicted" suspenslion of specie payments l'y the batiks, and the governed thie sense of the provision. No man couic (;overnors being' in the interest of the banks might be convicted of any but an intentional offence. take upon himself to refuse to call together the Gen- Mr. REEMELIN thought it rather strange to see ,eral Asserab!y, to provide for the emergency. He the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. SAWYER,) retreataetioid, however, consult the biennial melt, and vote as mg from the position he had taken in his own work. they desired. He thought himself that it would be better that even Mr. LOUDON thought if there was any question an involuntary defaulter should be occasionally dis~olly fixe~d and settled by the ex:pressed opinions of the franchised than that a door be left open for abuse in people, it was the qisostien of biennial sessions of the the opposite direction. The actual amount of guilt J,.,egistatnre. While the Convention was in session at in such cases could not always he ascertained, and he Coluambas, thaere seemed bet one side to it, and no thought perhaps, as was suggested, the word convicmember had dared, to get sip and oppose it. A very ted, would govern the construction of the provision. ttioroanch discussiot had taken place at the time, and he The section he believed was taken from the coisatitatiought it useless to goi over with it again. He would tion of California, a document held in high respect h~owev,er, call on the friends of the principle to be on by the gentlemart from Auglaixe; and he was sometileir guard agatust tthe insidloas' attempts indirectly, to what surprised to see him varying f~rom it. slefeat it. now being made on all sides. M~r. SAWYER said it was true that he had been in Mr.,NASH said he had been in favor of biensnial sea- ~, ~;umental in inserting the section as it is, in tile Re 567 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY I1. Mr. NASH moved to strike out the word "law" and insert the word "act," which was agreed to. Mr. GREGG mnoved to amend the section, after the word "'act," just inserted, to insert the words for theregulation of Public Schools, wlieh was agreed to. Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to strike out the wholesection. Mr. REEMELIN was opposed to striking out. The, evil to be guarded against was oae thLat was bemcoming very prevalent. Laws during every session were passed to take effect after a vote of t]he people upoa. them. It was an aiss uwptiom by the people of the filnc,tions of the General Assembly. Laws under such circumstances were passed awhich otherwise never wouii be, and their frainers; exculsd. tlternselves m,.der thefact that the people were to accept them before tllhey were bound by them. Ti-he quetstioil presented is shaltc' we have a replub'lic.an g>velnmewt or a ]pure utsadell teirated democracy'? and howeever muzh he maight be irn sfavor of democracy, he deid niiot -'want to arrive at it, iti this ma-aer. The question tlen heing e striking cut sectino n, the, same was disagreed to. See. 30. The inmnner'o the electiw, and appointment of all officers, and the tlin-ig oif all vacancies, not otherwise directed by this Co,stitution or the Constitution of the -Uiite(l States, shalt be made iiL such manner as may be din cted by law, provided,. however, that no appointing power shall ev.er be ves. ted in or exercised by tele rGeteral Asseimaly, except : the appointment of officers for their 0wv i,gdy, nAd(, United States nators, anid in all su, electieps. tllu' ; sate shall be taken rvw AocalS. Mr. CUTLER inovcd to strike uAt of the section all after the word "Soe~ators,*' cear the- end 01 the seci tion. Mr. CUTLER said that the Repeat of the ermir.it i tee on the electi-~e franchc,se had provided to gene,rs rule-hat all elect ionis shall I by ballot; anid hlie e,oldt see no reason fotr a lepartrre fraom the Bule i. this partticelar ease. Mr. REEMELINY said he bad so o'eetioa to the people voting l)y b.illot. It xas their right. At the members of the General Assembly are the agents of the people, and as such thie people have a right toknowu how they vote, as nmuch as to ke)ow ho,w they trans act any other btsines,s. Mr. NASH was strue k with onie fact i,) thas coninection, and that was Ithe dispasitiOn here manifested to go back to old systems which were prevalent fifty or sixty years ago, iii Englaud and ist thie ce,%intry, when every man was required to vote opesily If the principle was rightas applied to the (general Asembly, it was right every where else. The obj~-t of the vote by ballot is to insure secree-, in order that menr, may act with independe-nce, and he was rather aurprised to see this tendency toward a system bthat had been pronounced perfectly odious. Mr. SAWYER said the gentleman from Gaillia did not see the disliuction. or at least he did net allude to it. The people have a right to vote secretly o7 epenly as they please; but the legislators are the agents of the people, and a plan which nilows them to sreens their acts from the public gaz~e, isan anomnaly and all abase. Mr. NASH did not undertake to say it was not righ~t: on the contrasry, he thoeaght ~t was. Mr. SAWYER. Why then does the gentlenin talk about our going back to old systems of English P tyranny,and barbarism? On the eontrary, we ael go — in~g forwars. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE disagreed with gentlemen as to the construction they were giving to this clasus of the section. He thought the words "exce pt tlis ,ort; andt that it was taken from the consti tutioni of California, for which in general he had some respect. But he was not one of those who would retain an opinIion, after he was satisfied it was wrong. He thought the provision went a little too far, and think -tng so, had not waited to have some one else move the amendment. Mr. KENNON was in favor of the amendmient, but would say a few words in explanation of the terms -Ised in the section. A defalcation is where the par ty merely fails to pay; an embezzlement is, to all in tents and purposes a larceny, except that the party h ad the money entrusted to his care, and in his hhangds, at the time he applied it. The question b eing on the aleinndnent o n Mr. R oirEotLI,sc the same was disagreed to. Th lmn thig n sri t he questioen being on striking out te words "a defacation or," a nd inser tin g th e word "an," the sam e was agreed t o. Mr. REEMELIN m ov ed further t o aanend th e sec tion,by adding at the end the following, " and th e G en eral As sembly shall. as soon as pr acticable pass a law providing for the punishment of such embezzle nment as felony." Mr. KENNON would like to inquire of the mover o f this amendmen t what h e me ant by the word felo ny. In England it means a forfeiture of go nd chattels; but what is it to be construed to mneain here? Mr. REEMELIN supposed the general meaning of the word to be well understood. It means such a crime as is punishable in the Penitentiary. Mr. KEN NON. The word in this ceuittry, and in our law means nothing, and never did. Mr. HITCHCOCK did not believe it the business of this bodv to instruct the General Assembly as to the manner in which it should punish any crime or offence. If the definition of the gentleman from Hamn ilton, (Mr. REM.ELIN,) be correct, this would be a con stitutionial provision that all embezzlers of the pub lic funds shall be punished by imprisonment inl the Penitentiary. He thought it the province of the leg islative power alone, to point out the mode in which crimes are to be punished. If we are to do so in one case, there is no reason why we should not in anoth er, and the result would be that our Constitution would become a code of criminal law. MLr. NASH. The word convicted, secures the ob ject of the gentleman fi'om Hanmiltoni. To do more would be to go beyond the province of constitttional law. and fix a T)unishmnenut for a particular offence. The question then being on the amendment, the same was disagreed to. Sec. 27. No divorce shall be granted by th,e Ger eral Assembly, nor shall any judicial power, not, here in expressly granted, ever be exercised by the Gener al Assembly." Mr. MANON miioved to strike out of this section all after the word "shall," where it first occurs, and insert, "ever be granted in this State." Mr. MANON said that when a man took to Iimn self a wife, he took her, according to his contract, for better or worse. And though she night be like the Indian's wife, all the worse, he should be holden to his promise, and have no other, so Ion, as she lives. -The question the}] being on the amendments the same wvas disagreed to. Sec. 28. Columbus shall be the seat oft gasvernment until otherwise ordered by law. Passed without amendment. See 29. All laws of a general nature shall have a uniform operation, nor shall any lawt be passed to ta~ke effect or to be operative upon thue approval of any; other authority than the General As,semlblv, except as i otherwise provided in this Constitution. 568 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuSDAr, FEBRUARY 11. thought this matter might be safely left to legislative discretion. Mr. GREEN of Ross, thought the section liable to afurther difficulty. It might result in this: A man may have a good and valid claim against the state, but he cannot get the money until the General Assembly has first passed one law to decide the claim valid, aud then another to provide for its payment. For instance: A man has a claim for labor upon the public works. There is a difficulty between him and the officer in charge of the work, and it must be referred to the General Assembly. It is there examined, and it is con cluded.that it ought to be paid. They go on and de clare that A. B. is entitled to be paid out of the treasu ry, so much rmioney. They cann.ot go on and say that it shall be paid out of any moneys lnot otherwise ap propriated, but must go to work and get up another bill to provide for lthe payment. He thought this con clusion to be inevitable. Mr. HOLT, did not like the rule of morals prescribed for th e state by this section. He had had occasion to say before, -atd hlie still believed it true, that the morals of a people seldom if ever rise above the standard which the law fixes. Ife was uniwilling that the state by example should give countenance to dishonesty or unfairness in the individual citizen. What do we think of the man who, taking advantage of a sharp bargain, avails himself of the skill, labor, and money of another, and instead of making him a remuneration, compels him to suffer a loss even beyond the loss of his time and labor? It might be disorderly to say that any member of this body who would do so would be dishonest; but he would say that outside of these walls, any mai who deals thus with his fellow man, was not a good citizen. In respect to the state: take the case of a contract with an individual-for instance a job of canal excavation, the character of which was mistaken by the state agents and the contractor, the job costing double the estimate and the contract price. The contractor nevertheless fulfils his contract-industriously, skilfully, and economically completes the work, at a loss of all his time and labhr. Now you propose under these circumstances that the state shall retuse to make him compensation, because under a mistaken apprehension of the character of the work, he had contracted to do it for half what it was worth. This is the honesty in dealing, the mrorals of trade which you would teach the individual citizen. and enforce by example. The state is to adopt the rule of the sharper "keep what you have got and get what you can. Get rich, honestly if you can, but get rich." As if a man's value was to be measured by his money. His honesty, integrity, intelligence, of little account, if he be rich, he is to be the true, thesafeexemplar. hope thesection will be str ic ke n out. Mr. REEMELIN, said the interests of the state should be guarded with the utmost care. An individual might be generous but a state could be just alone. The state must not be regarded in the light of an inidia vidual, but its interests must be guarded with mnore care than those of any individual. Its position is more analagous to that of an infant. It must be holden to no contract but such as it clearly makes. A mall who contracts with the state must do it with his eyes often, anld mnust be presumed to knlow the law. To adopt the amendment would be to render the section nugatory. '&The General Assemnbly shall never authorize the payment of any extra compensation * * * * after the service shall have been rendered or the contract entered into." It would go farther than the gentlemnan intends, and would cut off allowances for all claims however meritorious. appointment of officers for their own body and United States Senators," were intended to be included in a pa. renthesisand to be excluded fro m t he operation s of the otherwise general rule. Mr. NASH moved to strike out the words "all such" in the sixth line, and inser t in lieu thereof the word "these," which was disagreed to. The question then being on the motion of Mr. CUT LER, Mr. STANBERY d oubted the propriety Of han gitng the ogode of election. The only reason given s e ems to be that the General Assembly are the agents of the people. Buto i tstherpe was another power over mem bersuof thie General A ss e mbly, great er thas the peo ple, and of which they are more afraid. That is the power of a caucus nomination. But for that there would be little danger of the will of the people being defeated. The question being on the motion of Mr. CUTLER the same was disagreed to; yaes 35, nays not counted. Mr. NAS[TH m oved to strike out the word.ap. pointment," in the fifth line, and insert the word aelection," w hic h was agreed to. Mr. STANBERY moved to strike out of the first line, the words "th e maniner of," which was a greed to. Mr. STANBERY moved to st rike out t he word "of" in the first line, wh ich was agreed to. Src..31. No person who shalt hereafter s end, acc ept, or carry a chall enge for, or fight a duel, or assist in the same as second or otherwise, shall be el igibl e or c apabl e of holdinx any office of trust, honr or orprofit. Mr. HOLMES m oved to strike out the -whole sec tion. Mr. WORTHINGTON moved to amend the sectloni, by inserting after the word "hereafter," the word 4'knowingly."' Mr. I,ARSH sa id the w ord "k now ingly" would then apply as well to the man who fought a duel, as t o him who carried the challenge. He should like to see the nan who could fight a duel withoutknowing it. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. WORTHINGTON, the same was adopted. The question then being on striking out the whole sections the same was disagreed to. SEc. 3o. Lotteries, and the sale of lottery tickets, for any ipurpose whatever, shall forever be prohibited in this -tate. Passed without amendment. SEc. 33. The General Assembly shall have no power to pass retroactive laws, or laws impairing the obligation of contracts, provided, however, that acts of incorporation, or corparate franchises, privileges or immunities, whether granted by any general or special law, shall never be deemed contracts, or irrepealable. Passed informally, with the understanding that it shall be generally subject to amendment, in Conivention. S~c. 34. The General Assembly shall never authorize the payment (f any extra compensation to any officer, public agent, or contractor, after the service shall have been rendered, or the contract entered into; nor grant by appropriation, or otherwise, any amount of money, to any individual on any claim, real or pretended, when the same shall not have teen provided for by pre existing law. Mr. NASH moved to amend the section by strikirg out all after the word "into," in the third line. Mr. NASH did not u nderstanld w hat was intended. Does the payment refer to the claim or to the appropriationl? He supposed that the committee intended that the money should not be paid unless the claim originated under some law. There may be cases of a good and valid claim that has not originated under any law. A break ill one of the canals of the state may overrun a man's farm, and spoil his land by a doepsitc of sand or gravel. The claim did not originate under any law, therefore there can be no compensation. He 5s9 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11. complain of the answer, but I desire to have these core rections made. I do not design to make any charge i against Mr. CASE in this matter, especially as he is not now ill his seat, nor have I any complaint to make against the reporter. I saw the manuscript, and in the latter instance, at least, to my distinct recollection, it was correct. How the errors have arisen, I am unable to explain. Mr. STANBERY. The last correction made by the gentleman from Knox, is a very important one and it may be that the gentleman from Licking did not so understand his question. I would suggest to the gentlemran whether it would not be better, as the gentleman from Licking is not present, to withhold the correction, untiil he is here. That correction may put the gentleman from Licking in a false position. Mr. MITCHELL. I shall make the correction. It is my own question, he nor any other man had any right to interfere with it. Mr. REEMELIN, also called the attention of the convention to another matter. It was to thle portion of a speech of his read by the gentleman from Licking. There was onilv a part of what was read there, and that part put sentiments into his mouth, which were reversed by the portion omitted. Mr. CAS: had attempted the same unfairness during the discussion, but Mr. R. had then exposed it, and made him read all that referred to the subject. Mr. R. said, he was therefore astonished to find in the report, the extract from his speech, garbled again. If this were the first time, he would let it pass silently, but it had been done bv the same gentleman before, whom hie was sorry not to see in his place, and he would not now have risen; if the correction had not to be made to day. Mr. STANTON. The gentleman from Licking is not here, and I really think it would be better that these corrections should be made in his presence, as he would then have an opportunity of explaining and the explanation might go with the correction. Mr. MITCHELL. I desire to say only, that I avoided all allusion to the gentleman from Licking, he not being in his seat. As I have already said so, I say again, that I make no charge against, him, but 1 cannot explain how these errors occurred. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE DEPART MENT. Oin notion of Mr. MANON, the Convention then went into Committee of the Whole, Mr. HORTON in the chair. The CHAIRMAN stated, that the question before the committee, when the committee rose, was a motion to strike out of the 34th section, of the report of the committee on the legislative department the foilowing words. "Nor grant by appropriation or otherwise, any amount of money to any individual, on any claim, real or pretended, when the same shall not have been provided for by pre-ex is3ting la-%." The section as thus amended, would then read: '-The General Assembly. shall never authorize the payment of any extra compensation t, any officer. public agent, or contractor, after the services shall have been rendered, orthe contract entered into." Mr. IITCHCOCK said, he believed there was no particular use in retaining the words proposed to be stricken out. The probability was that cases might arise in which it would be proper for the General Assembly to make an appropriation in order to pay the claims of public officers, and contractors, although at the time the services might be rendered, or the contract performed, no law might be existing in relation thereto. So far as regarded the first part of the sectaon, he hoped it would be adopted with the amendment now proposed. He agreed with the gentleman M r. MA NON moved a call of the Convention, which was ordered, and Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Case of Hocking, Case of Lickting, Chambers, Clark, Curry, Dersey, Ewart, Ewing, Graham, Groesbeck, Hlarlan,: Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Holt, Homes, Hnmphreville, Kennon, Larsh, Loudon, Mason, Mc. Cormnick. Morris, Nash, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, wSce of Harrison, Swasu, Vance of Champaign, Way and Woodbury, were found absent. On inotioll. Messrs. Ewing, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, McCormick, Patlerson, Peck. Vanc e of Champaign and Way were ieverslly excused. Mr. KIRKWOOD move d th a t all further proceeding s und er the call, be now dispensed with, which was disagreed to. Mr. HITCH COCK o f Geauga, moved, that all ab sen te es not already excused, be excused, wh ich was disagreed to. Mr. BLAIR moved that all further proceed ings undetr the call be dispensed with. On which motion, Mr. BLAIR demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yea s 50, ses 29, as follows: YEAS-'efsrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blair. Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens. Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Cook, Cutler, Farr, Florence, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Hawkins, Henderson Hitchcock of Geauga. Holt, Hunt, Hunter, King, Kirkwwoed, Leadbetter, Morehead, McCloud, Norris, Otis, Ranney, Reemelin. Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith ( f Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton. Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Tovw nslhend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Wilson, Worthington and President —50. NAs.-Messrs. Bates, Coilings, Forbes, Gillett, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Hootman, Horton, Humph-eville, Johnson, Jones, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech,, Lidey, Marion, Mitcbell, Nash, Orton, Quigley, Riddle, Sellers, Stebbins, Stidger, Taylor, Thtmpson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark and Williams-29. So the motion was adopted. Mr. MITCHELL. I rise to a question of privilege. In the report of our proceedings,of the 5th inst., I find that there several arei naccuracies which misrepresent me in what I said on that day, and I desire to have them corrected. They all occur in the speech of the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE.) The first instance to which I refer is where that gentleman asked me the following question: - Is not a franchise property?" And I am simply represented as saying "Ah!" as though I was dodging the question or refusing to answer, whereas, I said, ne it is not in the sense in which the word private property is used'n this connection in our constitutions. In another part of the same remarks, where I asked him, "do you regard the Dartmouth College case as a good authority," the answer was *undoubtedly I do," I have it written down on paper, just as it was given. Then sir, I asked again, "are you in favor of prospective repeal, unconditional?" That is my question, for I had it written down at the time and have the paper before me now. I'he word unconditional, is omitted, in the report. Mr. CASE'S fnswer to that was "I am most certainly." I do not 570 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES — TJEs:)AY, FEBRUARY 1 1. from Hamilton, that the General Assembly ought not making a reasonable profit for his time and labor, he to provide for any extra compensation after the service sustained a loss. The man who contracted to have had been rendered, or the contract made. He had no the mill built is satisfied with the materials and equaldoubt that had there been a provision of this kind inl ly satisfied with the work; but he is satisfied also the old constitution, many hundreds of thousands of that the contractor has lost money by the work. I dollars, would have been saved to the State. In times would ask whether it would be reasonable and just past, it had been the case that contractors after hav- that the State should hold a man to a contract of that ing been paid the full amount, of their contracts, had sort? I say, sir, it would be wholly unjust, and that made application to the General Assembly, for further no honest man would bind his fellow man to such a compensation; and the practice had been carried so far contract. Then apply such a case to the State. Say that when a man was about to enter into a contract, he that a contractor takes a job on a canal for the sum of cared but little in regard to the amount agreed upon, - hundred thousand dollars. He believes on the outcalculating that the General Assembly would make set that the work can be completed for that sum, but good his losses if he sustained any; but he believed when~the excavation comes to be made he finds it is that there was never an instance known, ofcontractors of a character entirely different, and the contractor refunding to the State, any portion of the profits he completes the work at a loss. The work is not comhad made on his contract, even though they were ever plained of at all, yet the contractor, instead of makso great. On the other hand, if a contract turned out ing five thousand dollars, as he perhaps ought to do, to be unprofitable, either from mismanagement, or loses ten or fifteen thousand dollars, all of which can from any other cause, the General Assembly had been be clearly established to the satisfaction of the State. in the habit of granting compensation. This practice Is the State then to set an example of moral honesty had been carried on, upon the principle, that a great to the people by saying, "get what you can and keep State ought to be generous. Now he was ready to what you get; get moneyhonestly if you can, but get concede to gentlernen that as individuals they might money any how?" be as generous as they pleased. To that he could have Sir, I do not believe in a doctrine of that kind. no possible objection, provided that they were generous When you say that an individual may be generous only with their own money; but he denied that they but that a Legislature may not, I cannot subscribe to had any right to be generous with the money of the any such doctrine. I cannot believe that the people people. While, therefore, hlie was in favor of retaining of the State of Ohio would sanction any such princithe first part of the section, he was opposed to retain ple, and I should be sorry to see the Convention pass ing the latter portion of it, because lie apprehended ainy section embracing it. I will admit that there is that with such a provision. some claims founded both |one argument, and I must say that it is the only one in equity and justice might be prevented from being I can conceive of that is favorable to such a provision paid. as that embraced in this section, and that is the great Mr. NASH said that all the cases which had been disposition which frequently prevails among the peocited by the gentleman from Hamilton were cases ple to filch money from the State. There are many which were covered by the first part of this section. men who appear to think that whatever they can o01)He did not know of one instance in which the Ge- tain from the State is right, and that there is no harm eral Assembly had granted extra compensation, which in getting all they can. That disposition I will adthe first part of the section would not cover. This mrit does exist, and its existence is to my mind the on ortion of the section would avoid all the evils that ly argument that can be adduced in favor of such a had arisen in the past history of the State, and he did proposition as that contained in the section. But sir inot think the last portion of the paragraph ought to that argument should not be allowed to operate be retained where claims might arise in anticipation ag.ainst just claims; nor should the Legislature on of a law. Suppose for instance, that any sudden that account be prevented from recognizing them. emergency should arise, such as al invasion, or a That is not the kind of morality which we ought to breach in the canal, or any misfortune to any of the establish —not the example we ought to set to the public works which requires immediate attention aid people. I repeat that we are apt to think too much of repair, nothing could be done in the matter until the money or property, regardless of every other considGeneral Assembly should meet and make an appro- eration. In my opinion there is no necessity for this priation to meet the exigency. In such a case as that section, and I trust the whole of it will be stricken last supposed it might be absolutely necessary that out. the public officer should go on and make the necessa- Mr. HAWKINS said he had had a little experience ry repairs, and the State certainly ought to pay the both as a contractor and as a legislator. This provision bill. Now a great many cases of that character might aimed to suppress what was well known to be a great arise, and as the first p1)art of the section would do abuse in the State of Ohio; but it was a matter of away with all the evils complained of, hle thought the great difficulty to provide any constitutional rule latter portion ought not to be retained. that would not be liable to operate unjustly in some Mr. HOLT observed that according to the standard cases. of morality exhibited by the State, so must gentle- Mr. NASH. I rise to a point of order. The quesmen expect to find the morality of the people. He tion is on striking out the latter portion of the sechad already had occasion to rerniark that, as a general tion. The gentleman from Morgan is discussing the thing, individuals would not be found to be more first. honest than the law made them. The integrity of in- Mr. HAWKINS. If I ani out of order, Mr. Presi dividuals would be no higher than the example of'the dent, I was certainly led into the disorder by the gen State made them, either by the rule of law governing tlemen who have just preceded me, for they certainly their contracts, or by the standard by which the Gen- discussed the whole question. eral Assembly might govern themselves. Now he Mr. REEMELIN. I desire to present a few con would put a case. Suppose that an individual enter- siderations to the Convention, and perhaps when I ed into a contract for the building of a flouring mill have done so we may still be able to preserve this and the contractor had furnished all the materials and section. Sir, I have never known the State to back done the work faithfully in every respect, and carried out of a bad contract. it on to its completion; but that the party when the Mr. NASH. I call the gentleman to order; he is dis contract was made had so estimated it that instead o. cussing the first half of the section .571 OH1IO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, FEBRUARY 11. Mr. REEMELIN. I am not discussing any thing money, to any individlual, on any claim. real or pretended, of the kind. The gentleman from Gallia appear:, to when the subject matter of the same shall not have been have acquired a peculiarly nice sense of order within pvroided for bypre-existinglaw." the last half hour. This amendment, I think, will be of value. It will The CHAIRMAN. The chair would decide that at least, go to apprise the State of what was intended the gentleman's remarks so far were not pertinent to by it. the question. The question being taken on the amendment, it was Mr. REEMELIN. Then I will endeavor to make agreed to. them so. This paying large sums of money as extra Tile question tlei recurred on the motion to strike comFLensation for services or losses on contracts is an out all after the word "into," in the 5th line, and a di undoubted evil which ought to be checked if possible. visioln being called for, there were for the motion Look at the examples we have had but recently. Look veas 40, nays 32. at the case of Mr. Ritchie of Washington in which a So the mnotion to strike out was agreed to. claim of.Si27,000 was allowed though nriot provided for Mr. STANBERY moved to strike out all the re by any pre-existing law. Now I ask members wheth- mIaining portior of the sectiol. He said lie had not er they are willing that this kind of corruption should I seen the evils which the gentlemnan from Hamilton and run rampant over the State of Ohio, as it has done in others had referred to, as arising out of Legislative in years past. Bring the matter closer home, sir, and you terfereiee with contracts. The gentleman from Ham have the celebrated Galphin claim, which was not pro- ilton was more familiar with Legislative proceedings vided for by any pre-existing law, and yet it was al- then lihe was, but he did not recollect a single inlstance lowed. Again. sir. five extra clerks were hired, and in which the Legislature had giveni one dollar of extra paid under the plea of necessity, the design of which compensation to contractors. He knew that they had was no doubt, to give places tothese office seekers when authorised contractors to sue the State, and that in there was nothing for them to do, they trusting to some instances, in courts ofjustice contrac-ors had per members of Congress to make the appropriation neces- haps got too high damages. If therefore any evil had sary for the payment of their salaries. These are some existed heretofore, this section would nlot remedy it at instances of the workings of thissystem under the gen- all, because all the extra compensation that had ever eral government, and scores of instances of the kind been allowed, had grown out of the contracts them might be enumerated which have occurred under our selves and the rrmaner in which they were worded. State government. Nothing was prescribed in the section indicating what It was remarked a little while ago by the gentleman should be the form of contracts; and indeed that was from Montgomery, that we should be guided in our impossible, for they would necessarily vary with every State affairs as we would be in our individual matteis. subject to whicth they related. There was generally a Now, I ask, whether there is any similarity? whether provision or stipulation in these contracts that if the the State does not say, "When you deal with me, you word should not be of the character anticipated, then shall deal with me as my public acts specify?" Sir, an allowance should be made, and it was generally uileverybody deals with the Statejust as it speaks through der suchia provision that allowances had been madeits laws. I ask whether there is aiiy injustice in say. not by the ILegislature but by the board of public itig we will only abide by the contracts we have made? works. It was not to be denied that in some instances I ask whether it is lnot necessary that we should have large amounts had been unduly paid, as in the case of such a provision, which would be worth more for the the improvement on Muskingum river where 16 or 17 preventing of corruption than any other section in the cents per pound had been paid for iron, whlen cast ironi constitution? The mnoment, sir, that this provision worth three or four cents would have allswered all the struck my eye, I saw that it was one that if adopted, purposes. But because these things had occasionally would hereafter save the State a great deal of money occurred, was it right to shut the door against an lioneven though we may not be engaged in the construe- est and just claimr'l He knew that contracts had been tion of any public works. There is not a gentleman injudicious'y entered into, and that might just as likely who has spoken on the other side who does not say happen hereafter as it had heretofore. The section as that the section is right; and all that they claiti is that it stood would not provide against thatat all. If then, thlis is not such a provision as an individual would take there had been 110no evil arising from Legislation upon for his guide. I admit that in my individual capacity this subiect, none might be expected to arise; and 1 might not be so rigid, but I repeat again, that when where therefore the necessity or propriety ofadoptit comes to the State, it is a differenit questionil-the ing such a section. Would there never be a case in State occupying precisely the position which it occu- which an honest man might make a contract with the pies in pursuance of law. State, aid go oii and perform it, and when he had got Sir, The insertion of this provision here will not on- through find himself ruined? And what was it proly have a good effect in regard to the State, but it will posed should be said to such a man? Sinmply this, "you undoubtedly becarried down to the city and county say you are ruined; the State has got your work and corporations, and if it, should be it will save to the city your materials and you may get your pay as you can. of Cincinnati alone come twenty thousand dollars a You shall not have a cent more than was agreed to be year. Sir, it is with extreme reluctance that I have paid you." Was it net enough to say "you shall not said anything oni this subject; but deeming it my duty sue the State,"or to put the contractor entirely in the to defend this section which I believe will be product- power of the superintendenit. And when all this was ive of much benefit, I make these remarks, hoping done, were they willing to say that the State should that sone other member who feels as I do will rise and never, under any circumstances, make just compensadefend the section from this motion to cut away what tion when if the case had been as between man and I regard as the most valuable portion of it. man, it should be made? Could not the Legislature be Mr. VANCE. I believe it is in order to amend entrusted with the power to do right on proper occathe portion proposed to be stricken out before that sions? Had they been in the habit of giving away the question can be taken. I move therefore to insert the public'money to officers or contractors who were not words "subject matter of" between the words "the" entitled to compensation? Most certainly not. Now and "same" ii the 5th lie. The latter part of the see- the State had a great deal of work to do which she tioti which it is proposed to strike out, will then read: must do as an individual. She was a large holder of "5or grant by appropriation or otherwise, any amount of property which must be taken care of and kept in re 572 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11. pair. And yet if a man, through mistake, was to hap-'. pen to make a contract which was unprofitable he was to have no intidemnity-no redress! He was opposed to any such provision and disposed to leave this matter en- t tirely with the Legislature, believing that they would a do what was right. But there was another point of view in which this question should be looked at-another bad effect which such a provision would have. If this section were adopted, and the State were to betome thus stringent with contractors, it would be virtually saying to them, "There is no remedy for you, if you make the slightest mistake. Be cautious, for if you err, to your own ruin, the State is not honest enough to save you;" that would be the consequence of such a rule. Why, it would cut off all conmpetition-men would not un-ldcertake to work for the State, short of the highest prices, and the effect of it, would be to increase the cost of everything the State required to be done. He was, therefore, of opinion, that gentlemen magnified the evils they complained of-that the fault was by 1no means in the Legislature, and that to adopt such a rule as that proposed, was not only going too far, but would have no effect in accomplishing the object which it was alledge(l was sought to be obtained. Mr. HAWKINS observed, that he should be glad to support a provisio)n of this kind, if it would meet the cases which gentlemen appeared desirous to meet, but he was firmnly convinced, that a general provision of ttiis sort, would work injustice in very many in. stances. He did not, however, agree with the gentleman from Franklin, when he said that when a contract was entered into, the contractor was bound to go on, even to his ruin. He believed that the State never had, ana never would, compel any man to go on in the completion of a ruinous job. They had always been al. lowed to escape from their contracts with the slight penalty of ten per cent. deduction on the work donethis penalty being necessary to ensure the faithful performance of the contract. One mischief which would arise fronm such a provision, would result in this way: Say that a contractor had undertaken to do a piece of work, and after progressing with it, he found that he I ad been misled as to its character-in short, that both h-iimself, and the State, had been deceived in the matter. He woald then have a right to abandon lhis contract, or to make a new engagement. Now, the provision con tained in th is section, would prevent the S tate f rom mnaking any new arrangement with him. Now, this was not at all desirable; and he believed that it w as generally in suchcase s, that te Legislature had made allowances. The gentleman from, Franklin, was mistaken with regard to the contracts on the: Muskingum river, and tire cast iron. The officers of State didt not allow the full price of that iron, for cast iron. They were cited to appear in the Supreme Court, and it was decided, that the term "iron," did not apply to castings-that that was a distinction made in all commercial transac tionts, and the officer in charge of the work, was not compelled to certify the price. He had done some lit tle work for iho public, and knew what it was to do it. and it not unfrequently happened, that after the work wvas comnmenced, something would be required, which was not at all conltemplated, involving large additional exrpensge, for whsichs extra allowance ought: Io be made. There were cases in which a conslitutional rule of this kind, would not work well, while in others, it would be pferfectly right. In c'asls where there was a deception as to the character of the work to be done, txhe Legislature. ought to be permitted to make a proper and ju~st extra allowance. With his present imnpress ionls of this section, be should vote against it, as being auunece~sry. .Mr. SAWYER r emarked th at the gentlemdan fro m Hamilton had intimated that gentlemen ought to come to his relief. He (Mr. S.) would do so, if he thought this provision was at all necessary; but he could not avoid entertaining the opinion, that mor e objections were made to this matte r of extra c omp ensa tio n, than appeared to him to be founded on good grounds. He supposed that this section was put into the Report on the ground that extra allowances, to a great amount, have been made by the Legislature. Ge ntlemen were quite aware,tha t in man y instances, extra allowances to more than the original amount of the contract work, ha d sometimes been made, and he had ro doubtwhatever that, in L lany instancs, persons en t er e d into contracts in th e full kn owledge that they could not complete them except at a loss, and with the full hope of receiving an extra allowance. There c oul d be no objection, bfe thought, to the section as i t now stood. He had an objection to th e portion which had been stricken out, iut the portion which yet remained, he thought ought to be allowed to stand. Gentlemen should bear in mind,that whenlthie agents of the State ordered extra work to be done, they were willing to pay for it, and it should always be remembered, that wh,ere wo rk for the State was faithfully d one, the asgents of the State w ere more willinsh to pay for it liberally than an individual would be, because they wer e not paying away thei r own money; and yet, i n the face of the State officers,s, the ere were some g entlemen who wanted exparte legislation, to pay all the clain3a s thus made. To his mind, it appeared more in consonance with the right course, to leave such matters with the proper officers, wh o might be appointed to perform this duty, thantreoh to leav eitt to me t ti Legislatre. Whe n men engaged in these public works, they certainly ought to know what they are about. Put it was lamentay)ly true, that many persons, relying o n the liberality of th e Legis l ature, entered into contracts who were no more fit to execute them, than he [Mr. S.] was to preach. [a laugh,] and that to the exclusion of good and competent men. It was seldom seen that a good and competent contractor applied for extra compensation, because he knew what he was about. He did his work right, and made his estimates and his bid right, and all was apt to go on well and smoothly. Mr. GREEN. There has been very general com plaint, Mr. President, of the amount of money that ,as been squanidere(d away in the payment of extra allowances; but, sir, it should be remembered, that this has been done by the General Assenmbly. Nothing, therefore, is to be put down to the generosity of that body. Whenever they have acted ul:on these matters, they have acted, undoubtedly, from the con sideration of principles of justice. The allowances I have, for the most part, been made by your board of officers, and it is the practice which they have adopt ed that has produced all of this difficulty. Sir, I heard a well informed gentleman say, the other day, that the public improvements of Ohio had cost onie-third more than a faithful administration of the affairs connected w ith tho e works would have in volved; that instead of being fifteen millions is debt, Acre shouhl not, probablyl, be more than ten millions in debt, and this has iresuited frown the very source iwhich the gentleman from Auglaize advocates. For a number of~ years past, the Legislature has referred these cases to the courts, and the case referred to by the gentleman froml Franlklinl, its relation to the iron, ;shows the proprietj of this course. In every instance cin which these cases have been sent to the courts, I believe that strict justice has been done, and instead of takingf anway the power from the General Asserbay, I would pr-event them from delegating this pow er to their agents. 573 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11. Sir, go up your Hocking improvement, and your the contractor had chosen to go on and do the work Muskingum and Miami improvements, and for every at a low bid, expecting extra compensation either from dollar's worth of work done upon these works, a cor- the State officer or the General Assembly. Cases had responding dollar has been given away or stolen, and even been known where contractors had refused to that through the instrumentality of public officers. give up contracts, and would go on with the work, I am inot disposed to leave that power in these hands; abiding the result. He was not willing that this should and if, under the construction of this clause, it would be done All these difficulties could be obviated by go as far as some gentlemen think it would go, it the parties themselves, when they found that there would not only prevent the General Assembly from had been a misunderstanding. He did not conceive taking cognizance of these questions, but it would that any difficulty could grow out of the adoption cut off their power of transferring themn to any other of this section. On the other hand, advantages tribunal. would accrue Irom it. When bids on contracts were It has been remarked by the gentleman from Frank- made they would be bona fide bids, and we would Iin that cases might arise hereafter, where a man may not have contracts like the printing contract in Con fairly have a claim against the State, under a variety gress, It were utterly idle to say that a contract like of circumstances, which no humana foresight could that of printing should be put out to the lowest bid guard against, and in which, if the case was that of der, unless it should be provided that the General an individual and not the State, the courts of justice Assembly should never have the power to vary its would apply a remedy. It not only cuts off the Leg- terms. If gentlemen would look to the history of islature from applying any remedy, but it prevents contracts on our public works, they would find that them from ever referrinig these claims for adjudication they had been changed to some extent, and the public to any other tribunal. Let the circumstances be what officer had increased the compensation in order to they may-let the claim be ever so honest,-ever so make these contracts lucrative. He should stand by fair-ever so just-yet there is no remedy. They the first part of tho section. He believed it would shall not do it themselves, by direct legislation, nor do good, and all the evils which gentlemen anticipate shall they authorize the party to go to any other would be avoided, by having all these difficulties source for justice. settled at once. I ask gentlemen on the other side, who are in favor Mr. LOUDON did not know that this provision ws of this provision, if they would like to place the State of any great moment now, or that it would be herea in that attitude-whether they would like to see a ter but, if ithad existed years ago, he doubted not man beggared, and his lamily starving, and his chil- but that it would have been the means of saving a .dren crying for bread, having, at the same time, a great deal of money to the State. He gave sundry in.ust claim against the State? Sir, I have no particu- stances iii which contracts for canal construction had ar admiration for gentlemen who sneer when such been changed to the great loss of the State and also contingencies are suggested. This section, sir, is cases where indemnity had been voted to contractors calculated to perpetrate a great wrong, for cases may by the Legislature, after their work had been conipletarise in which, if the circunistances had been between ed, and thev had Leiscelived their pay according to their individuals, there can be no manner of question about contract. It was to p-event these things, and the most the justice and the right. Then, sir, I trust that we abo,minable frauds which too often gave sucoess to will put no barrier in the way of the State to what,' these applications for indemnity, that this section was by ~~~~~~~~~~~~hese apliationsh freqie iindithttiduasectiondo by her laws, she requires individuals to do.{ introduced. It was to secure to the State the fulfil Mr. NASfH thought that this section was not unl- I,,iet of contracts in all her future internal improves derstood. He agreed that the Legislature could not ment operations. authorize officers, by law, to make extra compensation. Mr. MASON, by way of perfecting the words proThis section, woulde, however, cut off all the icniM. MASON, by way of perfecting the words pro Ts section, would, hoever, cut off all he iicon- posed to be stricken out, moved to strike out the wordn veniences which the gentleman from Ross and Au- "entered into," and insert in lieu thereof the word glaize suppose would arise. "completed." It ihad been argued that the work might turn out Mr. MASON said this was proposed merely to make to be different from what it was supposed to be by I M~r. MASON said this was proposed merely to I;ke, to be different from what it was supposed to be by the language conform to the preceding part of the seethe parties. Well, what should be done in this case? tion, and to cut off the preseutation of claims after the Not that extra compensation should be allowed, or work should be completed. an officer have a right to say how much should be. This amendment was rejected granted-a power which might be the source of in- The question then recurred upon striking out finite fraud-but that the contractor should have thel Mr, right to surrender his contract, and have the work'words proposed to be stricken out, moved to anid b put up again to public competition.ords proposed to be stricken out, moved o arned b [iwnserting, after the word "into," these words: "unles He would ask, whether it would not be better, when insertig, after the word into," these words ul the claim for the same shall have been examined into a party having a contract found that it was different the clall for the same shall have been examined into and allowed upon equitable principles, in part el in from what he expected, it should be settled at once whole, by the supreme court, as shall be provided by by the party abandoning his contract, or continuing law." it, as he saw fit? All these difficulties-had originated Mr. GREEN said it had been the practice of the from the fact that, perhaps, some ten years after, the General Ass embly, of late y ears, to refer all these work was done, and where it was impossible to get cases to th e ourts and there were soe of them the evidence of the character of the work, the coi which could ot obtain a just relie f a t law, whict tractor had set up a claim for extra compensation, might be readily obtained in equity. He desired meapwhen the officers of the State were scattered abroad, toghtace readl obtame in eit h ai in and where the contractor looked solely to his own in- iy to place the State upon the same footing with anl i terest, regardless of the interest of the State. If dividual under like circumstances at d, it g these difficulties should arise, let them be settled in were willing that should be done, this amendment, or the only wray in which they could be settled with jus- lsomething like it, ought to be adopted. tice alike to the State and to the conitractors Jn the Theamendmeiit was rejected and the question whole history of extra compensations in Ohio, there again recurring upon Mr. STANBERY's motion to strike never had been one of them in which fraud had noti out the entire section, it was decided in the negative. been committed against the State, from the fact that SEC. 75. N'o new counties shall be created by the Genera ~ Assembly, containing less than our hundred square miles o 574 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUrF'S:DAY, FEBI^RUAAY 11. territory, nor shall any county be r,duced below that amount, The question thpn being upon inserting the words and all laws providing for chanliges in county lines, and f proposed it was decided in t afirmati the removal of county seats, shall be first submitted to the proposed, t was decided i the affirmative qualified electors, witbin such county or counties, at a ger. So the ainendment was adopted. eral election, and only be valid when approved by a majority Mr. MANON nmoved further to amend this section, of the voters voting at such election; provided, however. by striking out the words, "and all laws," together that any county, either now or hereafter, containing a popu with the words just inserted. lation of one hundred thousand, or more, inhabitants n ay be subdivided whenever a majority of the voters residing in Mr. MANON said, that would leave the section just ech of the sub-divisions shall approve of the law passed for as it stands in the old constitution, with the addition of ttiat purpose. the proviso; and I have 110o objection to that. Mr. RANNEY moved to amend this section, by The qties'ion then being on tie amendment of Mr. striking out after the word "laws," these words: "pro- MANON, the same was rejected. vriding for changes in county lines, or for the removal Mr. WORTHINGTON moved further toamend the of county seats, shall first be submritted to the qualified section, by striking out the proviso. voters within such county, or counties, at a general Mr. WORTfINGTON said he would like to hear election, and only be valid when approved by a mnajor- some reason for inserting this provision. The county ity of the voters voting at such election," and insert- and city of Philadelphia, and county and city of New lung the following: "creating new counties or provid- York, got along very well with their county organizalng for chaniges in county lilies, or for the removal of tions, with a littlo mnore than a half a million of county seats, shall before the same shall take effect, or inhabitants in each. There maighlit be something in this be in force, be submitted to tihe electors of each of the provision like the prospect of a sale of town lots for a counties to be affected thereby, at the next general new county seat. election, after the passage thereof, and be approved, Mr. REEIELIN had supposed that flamiltoncoun and adopted by a majority of all the electors voting at ty had obtruded herself enongh upon thile Legislature such election in each of said counities." of the State, to inform every man in the State of her The question then being on the amendment, grievances in this regard. They had officers in this Mr. REENIELIN desired to say that the standing county with eight or ten deputies. Such was the case conmittee were not responsible for tihe most part of with their treasurer, clerk, sheriff, and most other offitils section. It was matter which had been referred cers. The business of the citizens of the county was to them by the Coniventioin; except the proviso, which delayed in the courts; on account of the heavy amount t~~~~~~~~~~~~~omtieg by frthe covnioy. e x c ept the provis o, wlth!MIU tesupposed would be understood as referring to Ham- Coing in from the city. Again, te people of theliton county. The committee were careful to avoid country on the one hand, and the people of the city ion the other, were dissatisfied-each portion believing the very thing which the proposition of the gentleman t hter, were dissatisfeh ot ion believing fromin Trumbull would be sure to effect, that wasto ih they paid more tha their just share of the taxes the were careful to avoid makin e ies to The city could not even control the matter of its own say, they were careful to avoid making enemies to the.x ta es. It was all managed by the county officers. (constitution. If that amendment were adopted, it Tsiere was also a difficulty about the building of the would be sure to array forty thousand active enemies ns i ty a e ir u of a against the constitutioni, whilst, perhaps, it would en- new Court house. The city was desirous of a splendid tist th cosypthiteof a few lukte-warm friends. building-such as should be an ornament to the place, list the sympathies of a few luke-warm friends. whilst iiimself and others of the counitry, thought a Mr. RANNEY said he did not comprehend the gen- building worth twenty thousand dollars, would be suft'lemnan from HIamilton. The difficulty was that this ficient. But they were compelled by the citv togo for section as now reported, required that all laws for the tile splendid edifice. removal of county lines, or coutli ty seats shi(uld be first With respect to the reference made to Philadelphia submitted to the voters of the counlty or counties to be e respect to te reference madetoPhiladelpils effected. Now, nobody would understand this as r e-awd NeW York, he could tell the gentleman from Ross, ferring to the formation of new counties, but only to [~Nr WORrHJNGTON,] that the people of those cities the reoval of county lines. Another difficulty might! were anxious tor the very thing contemplated in this arise fromi the construction of this language: "and preilso. The people of the city of New York would shall only be valid when approved by a majority of the throw of their county orgallization any day, if they ~could. voters voting at such election:"-that was to say, a mrijority of all the voters of all the counties, not of Mr. RIDDLE said the timie might come when it the voters of each county. And it might so happen would be advisable to have a division of Hamilton that a larger county would vote down a smaller one. county; although, so far as lie was concerned individ. This difficulty would be obviated by the amelldment I ually, hie would dislike to see it. Still, he would urge which he had proposed. no objection to this proviso. It could do no othier por. Mr. MANON was averse to these ambiguous prop- tioni of the State ally harm; and the time might comne ositions-meaning this, that, and any thing. This when suchi a provision would be of considerable impor was not the first section which we had been called up- tance to the people of this county. There was a por. on to vote, which admitted of diverse constructions. tioni of the peo(ple of this county who had taken this If the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. REEMEtLIN ) and matter into consideration; and if they had not relied the committee desired that no new county should be upon their delegates here to act in this matter, he had formed, why did they not stop at the words "General no doubt that many petitions would have been present Assembly?" He should vote for striking out; and if ed upon the subject. It was his opinioli that a large that motion succeeded, he should perhaps, move to majority of the townships were opposed to division; strike out three words more. He demanded a division yet in the course of perhaps eight or ten years, the of the question. probability was, that the increase of business would The first question then being upoti striking o Ut. demnand it, and that, in justice, it should be accorded, Mr. GREGG, by way of perfecting the words pro- It might be necessary, also} to have two or three addi pose4 to be stricken out, moved to strike out there. tional courts. That, however, was provided in the Ja from the words, "or for the removal of county seats." dicial Report. The people of Hamilton county had This amendment was rejected: and the question re. not been very obtrusive here-not quite so much so, as curring upon the first branch of Mr. RANNEY'S motion they had been before another forum —and he hoped, to strike oat; it was decided ill the affirmative: therefore, that the Convention would not refuse to So the words were stricken out. grant them this boon. 575 576 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNEsDAY, FEBRUARYV 12. Mr. STANTON, considering that this discussion and the Chairman reported that the committee had had been continued as long as it could be profitable, come to no conclusion. moved that the committee rise and report the bill to the On motion by Mr. MITCHELL, Convention. The Convention then adjourned. This motion was lost-yeas 40, nays 41. Mr. LARWILL desired to keep all the cities of the ~ ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTEENTH DAY. State upon the same footng; and, therefore, he was in WEDNSDA, Feb., 15, favor of striking out. WEDNSAY, Feb. 12, 1851, Mr. HITCHCOCK of Cuyahoga protested against 812 o'clock, A. M. the idea that this provision was alone for Hamilton The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. county. There were other counties of the State, Mr. MANON moved a call of the Convention, whose population might increase to a hundred thou- which was ordered, and Messrs. Archbold,Blickensder. sand; and whenever anv county should come up to that fer, Chaney, Clark, Dorsev, Ewart, Ewing, Forbes, number, and desire to be divided, he believed it would Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Henderson, Hitch be best to give it the opportunity. lIe had no doubt cock of Cuyahoga, Holmes, 1ootman, Humplr ville, at all that in the case of Hamilton county, it would be Hunter, Jones, Kennon, King, Leadbetter, Mason more advantageous to the city and county both to di Mitchell, McCloud, Peck, Perkins, Reemelin, Riddle, vide; and his friend from Wayne, [Mr. LARWILL,] Roll, Stanbery, Stidger, Swan, Thompson of Star), would think with him, if that gentlemarl had witness- Vance of Champaign and Way were found absent. Vance of Champaign and Way were found abs-ent. ed the numerous cases from the county, detained in On motion of Mr. NASH, all further proceedings woul thnk ithhim iftha getlean ad itnss-On motion of Mfr. NASH,- all further proceedings court from six to eight weeks, for want of ime tonhear under the call were dispensed with. ,cort romsixtoeigt weks fo wnt f tme o harMr. OTIS presented a petition from Rollin Bos them, which had come within his [Mr. H.'sJ] personal OTIS presented a petition from Rtllin Boas observation. worth and twenty one others praying, that a claus Mr. LAWRENCE desired to ask the gentleman may be inserted in the new Constitution prohibiting from Hamilton what was intended to be nnde;stood in the Legislature from passing any aw legalizing traffic this proviso by the word "sub-divided"-would it not I spirituous liquors admnit of a division into two or more counties? ef,r red to the select committee on the subject of Mr. REEMELIN. Tihe meaning was that said retailing ardent spirits. counties night be divided and constituted new coun- Mr. CASE of Licking presented a petition from Cab ties. of an area below four hundred square miles. vin Vance and thirty-six others citizens of Licking Mr. STAN BERY suggested the modification-"may counity on the same subject, which was laid on the besub-divided into two counlties," because, as it stood tablep now, aily such county might be divided into several Report number two of the committee on Corpo count;,es.EMLN bwaprvs,tions other than corporations for Banking was read the Mr. EMELc, bvParrof perfectiung the po second time by its title. moved to strike out the word "sub," wherever it oc O motion of Mr. MANON, the Repot was com curs in the proviso; which was agreed to. mitted to a committee of the whole Conveltion. The questi,ton recurred upon striking out. Mr. HOLT submitted the following: Mr. WORTHINGTON still saw nothing in this to Resolved, That the standing committee to whom the prevent the city of Cincinnati from being divided into as engrossed article on the Bill of Rights as been r preveiit, the c-.,~~engossd article on the Bill of Rights has been re many counties as they have wards now, as fast as they conmilted,be instructed to incorporate into that article might come up to the requisite n)umber of inhab.t- as a section thereof the following: ants. "It being armoug the appropriate powers and duties of Mr. ANON had no fear of that, for one portion of the Legislative Department to determine, whether any the county could not cut themselves off without the business be injurious to the general welfare, the Gene. consent of the balance. ral Assembly have power by general laws to suppress Mr. COLLINGS, by way of perfecting the words the pursuit of any business,whenr. found to be so injuriproposed to be stricken out, moved to amend by adding ous, whether pursued by individuals or by corpora tioens in virtue of their corporate charter. But whenafter the word "divided," the words, "into two coun- ever the pursuit of any business shalll be so suppressed, Mties." Ho ISojce oteaeTeit ought to be done in such manner, and accompanied Mr. HOLMES objected to the amendment. The with such provisions not in the, opinion of the Gene. location of the county seat would he a matter of great ral Asse difficulty, if they were compelled to make but the divi- shal dmbly inconsistent with the general welfare ac shl othe least damage to the indivijuals or corporasion into city and county. The county of Hamilton lions pursuing such business." tiens pulrsuling such business." extended some thirty-five miles down the river, and Mr SAWYER moved to ay the resolution on th but a short distance from North to South; and a divi- table and order it to be printed. iv f,, ~~~~~~table and order it to be printed. sion throwing one half of the city one way, and the Mr. MANON demanded a division. other half the other way, instead of a remedy, would The question first being o laying o the table t ws only make the evil worse. It seemred to him that the y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~agreed to. most desirable and proper division would be into three greed to. The question then being on ordering the resolution toun uties. to be prinited, it N/as disagreed to. If he consulted only his ownI feelings, he would be Mr. SAWYER moved, that the committee of thie opposed to this provision. But supposing that the day Mr SAWYER moved, that te co ie of h whole bedshrefrmhefthronieaono might come when a majority of the people might find e discharged from the further cuiisideralion~of it necessary to make a division, he was willing that th Report tiumber two of the committee on the Legisla proviso should be retained. atv eatet On which motion Mr. WORTHINGTON demanded Mr. WORTH-IINGTO}N still contended, that,the yeas and nays whi ch were ordered, and resalted the principle of convenience, this provision was not at yeas 54 all desirable. There was the city of London, in the, nays 3G, as follows county of Middlesex, getting along very well with Yi:AsMessrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Ben. their county organizatioi, with a population exceeding nett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Browi of Carroll, Catill, Cianey Curry, Cut~er, Ewart, Farr, Forties, Gittert, Gray.;regg, Gross, by several hundred thousand, that of the whole State lerk,flawkins, Hender son, Holmes, Holt, Huotmari, Hortons. of Ohio.' Jones, Lawrence, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Morehead-, On motion of MJr. STANBERY, the committee rose, Morris, MeCCoud, McCormick, Ortoii, Perkins, Quigley, Ran OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNEsDAY, FEBRUARY 12. ney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren. Sm,ith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stel)lins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Wilson, Woodbury and President-54. NAJYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnett of Prelble, Brown of Athenis, Case,f Hocking, Case of Licking, Chambers, Coltings. Cook, F orei,te, Giene olt Defiance, Hamilton, flard, Iarlan, Hunplhreville, Hutt, Johnson, Kirkwood, La'sti, Larwill, Leadhet-. ter, Mano,, Mason, Norris, Otis, Pattersoni, Smnithl of Highland, Stauhery Stidger, Swan, Taylor, Thoitpleson:)f Shelby, Thonips)n of Stark, Vance otf Butler, Warren, and Worthingtoi:-36 So the motion was adopted. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention took up the Report of the Committee on the Legislative Department. The question being on the first amendment of the committee of th e whole, to wit: In section 6 in the beginning of the same, strike out the word "official" and insert the word "efficient;" it was agreed to. The quiestioni then being on the second amendment, to wit: In the beginning of section 16 insert before the word "incumbent" the words "salary of the;" it was agreed to. The question then being on the third amendment, to wit: In section 16, toward the end of the same, where these words occur "then in office for the term" strike out the word "for" and insert in lieu thereof the word "during;" it was agreed to. The question then being on the fourth amendment, to wit: In section 16, where toward the end of the end of the same these words occur "for the termn of office for" strike out the words "of office;" it was agreed to. The question then being on the fifth amendment, to wit: In section 16 at the end of the same, strike out the following words "for which he shall have been elected or appointed;" it was agreed to. The question then being on the sixth amendment, to wit: In sec(tion 16, where towards the end of the same these words occur "then in office for the term of office" strike out the word "the" before the word "term," and insert in lieu thereof the word "his;"' it was agreed to. The question then being on the seventh amendment, to wit: In section 16, when these words occur "then in offi ce f or the term of office" strike out the w ord "term" an d in sert in lieu there of the word s "continuanlce in office;" it was agreed to. The question then being on the eighth amendment, to wit: In sectS. on 16 t.)wards the end of the same strike out the words "then in office;" it was agreed to. Then question then being on the ninth amendment, to wit: strike out all after the word "constitution" in section 16, where it occurs in the middle of the same. Mr. BENNETT moved to perfect the words pr opos ed to be stricken out by striking out all after the word "change" when it occurs in section 16, and inserting in lieu thereof the followingd "In reference to tse cormpensation of any officer re ceiving a fixed salary shall be made to affect the salary of the incumbent during the continuance of his term of office," Which was rejected. The question then being on the ninth amendment, Mr. STANBERY moved to perfect the words pro posed to be stricken out by inserting after the words "continuance ill office" the following "for the original term or the altered term, as thse case may be," Which was rejected. Mr. LARW] lLL moved to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out by adding at the end of the section the following words "for the term for which he was elected or appointed," which was disagreed to. The question thenr being on the ninth amenedment, to wit:;strike out all after the word'constitution" in Section 16, where it occurs in the middle of the same. Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 27, nays 63-as follows:. YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking oln, Cahoinl, C urry, Cutler, Farr, Gillett, Gregg, Hunt, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lidey, Mason, Mes Clou d, McC ormick, Ranney, Smnith of Highland, Stae bery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark and Townshend,-27. NAYS-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Bliclhensderfer, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Chambers, Cnianey, Cook, Flece orence Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of loss, Hamilton, Hard, HarlanH aenn, HawMiMs,Henlerson, Holmes, Hootmanu, Horton, Hunphreville, Johnson, T ones, King, Lawrence, Larwill. Leecc, Leadbetter, Loudon,Manoni, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, Nash, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Ridile, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, rSmith of Warren, Smith of Wyo fatooc te dotu r te, Stebbinsr, ticney, Sti fer, Struble, Swan, Thomp son of Shelby, Vance of hbutler, Vance of Rs r, GofChampaign, Warren, Williams, Wilson, W oodbury Worthingt on and President-63. So the amendment was rejected. The question then being on the tenth amendment, too-wit: In section 17, where inthe niddle of the same, these words occur, "expiration of his term of office, be elected or" strike out the words "elected or," it w as agreed to. The question then being on the eleventh amendment, to-wit: In section 18, near the end of the same strike out b or the Word "the ir" and ins e rt in lieu thereof the word "its;" it was agreed t o. The question the being o thefolo te t welfth a mend me nt, to- wit; I n section 18, strike out all after the word "conducted." Mr. REEMELIN moved to perfect t he words, pro" posed to be stricken out, by adinli-g at the end o f secntion 18, the following: "ad provided further, tha t all contests for judg es of the Supreme Court, shall be tried before tile Senate," which was disagreed to. The question then being on the twelfth amedndment, to-wit to strike out all after the word "conducted." Mr. REEMELIN deml-anded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 59, nays 26, as follows: YTAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Ba-rnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Cutler, F lore nce, Forbe s. Gray, Green e lof Defiance. Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Henderson, Holmes,,telt, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hun, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leadbetter, Lidey, M1ason, M cCloud, Mc(.ormick, Nash, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Pleryins, Quigley, Ranniey, Ridd e, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Town,shenrl. Vance of Butler, Vance of Champaign, Warren, Williams,, Woodbury and Worthiog. ton-59. NAys-Messrs. Barnet ot Montgomery, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Chaney, Collings, Curry, Farr, Hawkins, Johnson, Jones, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Loudon, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, Orton, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stidger, Wilson and Piesident —t -; So the amendment was adopted. The question thetn being on the thirteenth amend, ment, to-wit: In section 18, where these words occur, 'and in what manniler, contested," after the word "manner," insert the words "the trial of," it was adopted. The question then being on the fourteenth amends ment, to-wit: In section 26, near the. beginning of the same, strike out the words "sa defalcation or)' and inlsert in lieu thereof. the word, "Xand."3 Mir. REEMELIN demanded the seas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 54, nays 38,, as follows. YzAs. —essrs. A~ldrew^T, Barne~, Burn-er. of 3onltgfomlery Barnett of Preble, Bates, Beannett. Brownl of Ath~ens, Brownw o' Carroll, Case of Hocking~, Chlamb1ers, Coilings. C:oot; Culrry, Cu:l let, Florence, Gillett, Gray, Greenl of Ross, Gxregg, Hamiter. Hard, Harlan, Hendersonl, Larsl% Lawvren~ce, Leech, Lidle" 577 Mr. GREGG moved to amend the amendment, by striKe out all alter tlle word "into." striking out the words "for the regulation," and i Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, which serting in lieu thereof, the words "upoln the subject," 1 lere ordered and resulted, yeas 49, nays 46, as fol low~S: which was adopted. The question then being on the seventeenth amend- Y.AS —Messrs. Atndrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bar. ment as amended, iiett of Prelile, Ba1es, Bennett, Brown of Atliens, Brown of Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays, which ('arroll, Cae of Horkiag. Clalters, Coliiigs, Cook, Curry, Cu~tler, Egwa!. Florenice, Gillett, Green of Ross, Greg!!, Haml were ordered, and resulted, yeas 57, nays 30, as fol- i!t teard, Harla, flurfawke i, Gilleit col of CRos a Ghoe, Haol, lows: Horton. Las, Lo i,l-j o, Ia-soi, Morebead, MeCloud, ,Nash, Otiss Peck, I. ueile~, Riddle, Scott of Harrmon5, Smitll YE:AS-Messrs. Andrews, Barlee Barnet of Mottgomfery,,,f Highian, Si h ot Wairen, Slaner, Sls!at of, Hatilwell. Bates, B.iuineit, Blickensderfer, B own of Carroll, Cahill, Case tfaylor, Thliompson of Shelby, Thompsn of Stairki, Vance ofl of Hocking. Cham,ibers, Chaiey, Cook, Cirry, Citler, Ewart, Coauloair lWari,r ao d Wortairtkon49 Farr, Fiorelnce, Forbes, Gilletl, Gre"", liantilton. Hard, Haw aa t kins Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Holmes, Holt, Hootiman, Hult, NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Blickensdeifer, Calill, Chainey Farr, Johnson, Kiikwood, Larsh, Loudou, Manon, Ma nrn, Mo Frties Grav,Gree ieof Dcfiaiice Gruebeck Hetiderson,Holtut"., l~i — it,h,-k o Cuahoa, olms, olt Ho,ti~an Huit Fo,rt,es. Gray, Gree.,e of ]efianice,Groeslm,ck,Heiderson,Hobn~ II Jlohuns, KkoariNoiso,Qoii'MasiiMrrliys R e,,Hooti.ani, HuBi,phreville, Hiint, Johlnsol, Jones, King. Kirk Mcultof ANo,-j- s f Histi,- a'iyd, Rti,of RWy'dol,te, Siawyei!wood, l,awren e, Larwiil, Lee(ih, Leailettei, Lidey, Mitchell, t}n, Stidger, SL0uble. Taylor, Thnof Star-k,''ownsilenr, Morris, McCormick, Norris, ()Irton, Pattersoi, Perkins, Rallnney, Vaitee of Champaiign, WYarre), Wilsoni, Woodl)biry, Wonthi g. Reer elii, Sawvye, Scott of Anglaize. Selle!:s, S,ith of Wv ton and President-57. andot, Steihins, Stickey, Stider, Strulle. Swift, Townshenid, NAys-Me~slis. Barnetit of Pretile, Burowt of Althets, Col Vance of Butler, Wilson, Woodblury and Presideiit-46. lings, Gray, Greeiie of Deiiance(, Gieeni of R,,ss. G -oe.sieclk, So the amendment was adopted Hariai,, Hilmdeson, HIlinlhreville, Jone,, arwill, Leech, L ead- Th e question the bein on the twety-fif'l -tment oelter, Lidev, Mitchell, Moreeal, MCoi- k, Nasht), Oiton, y Pattersoo, Perkiiis, S — ott of Harri,on, Sellers,S,itili of Warre,, meult, to-wit: In section 35, strike out the following, Stefibius, Stilwell, Stickiley, Svwit, and Thompson of Slel- "providing for changes in county inues, or for the reby-30. nimoval of county seats, shall first be submitted to the So the amendment was adopted. qualified voters, within such conIIty or counties, at a The question then being on the eighteenth ameld- general election, and olilv be valid when approved by nient, to -wit: ln section 30, where towards the end of a majority of the voters voting at such election," and the same, these words occur, "for their own body," insert in lieu thereof the followting: strike out the words "'all such," a-nd insert the w'oi d.. strike out the words "all such," and insert the wid "Creati.g new counties or providing for changes in coun"there;" it was agreed to. ty lines, or for the removal of county seats, shall, before the The question then being on the nineteenth amend- same shall take effect or be in force, be submitted to the elecmendmrent, to-wit: In section 30, towards the end of tors of each of the counties, to be affected thereby, at the the same, in the words, "except the appointment of next general election after the passage thereof, and be ap he same, in the words, "except the appointment of pro,ved and adopted by a miajority of all the electors votin g officers," strike out the word "appointment," and in- I at such election, in each of said counties" sert in lieu thereof, the word "election," it was Mr. MANO demanded a divisio. agreed to. ~~~~~~~Mr. MANON demanded a divisionI. agreed to. agreed to. ~~~~~~~~~The question being then on first striking out, The question then being on the twentieth amend- The question beiig then on first striking out ment, to-wit: In section 30, in the first line strike out r MANO demaded te yeas and nay which the words "manner of the," it was adopted. were ordered, and resulted, yeas 80, nays 14, as fol The question then being oli the twenty first amend- lows: ment, to-wit: II sectioni 30, in the commencement of YEA —Mes,5'. Andrew,, Barbee. Batinet of Montgorrmer-, the same, where these words occur "all officers and of Brilett of Prsble, Bates, Benett, B air, Bickensderfer, lirowl of Athen~s, Brown of Carreoll, Cl'a"tiers, Coilinigs. Cook, Curthe filling," strike out the word "of," it was agreed heis Bwrto, fCart rl, Cli tlr', llnstt Goken uof ry, Cutler, Ewari, Farr, Florence, Forties, Cillell, Greece of. to. Defiance, Green of Ross. Gregg, flHaiilton, Iarlan, Hawkins, The question then being on the "twenty-second Heniderson, llitrcheock of Geauga,Holt, Hootina, Hoiton, Hutmamendment, to-wit: In section 31, in the beginnaing plherecville, Hunrit, Johnson, Jones, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, ofthesame, ato-wi th worse cepti 31" insert thebeginingLe ch, Lidey, Lotidoc, Manon. Mason, Mitchell, Morebead, of the same, after the words "accept or" insert the Morris, McCloud, Nali, Norris, Orton, Otis. Pattersoh, Peek, word "knowingly." Q, uigley, [Ranney, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott ofHarrison, Scott of OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNES Av, FEBRUARY 12. Auglaize, Seliers, Smith of Highla(nd, Smith of Warren, Sn t Mr. REEMELIN. The gentleman made several seof Wyandot, Stanilerr, S'asiton, Stebtins, Sti'well Stii, vere attacks pon the section as reorted. ,ere attacks upon the section as reported. Stidger, Strol)e -Ilwift, Taylor, Thotopson of'stark, T,)vos hend, Vance of Chianipaigii, Warrenl, Woodbury. Worthiington Mr. STANBERY. The reason for that was, I did and President-90. not like it; but I have never been in favor of submit NAYS Mess!s. Cahill, Case of Hockitii, Chaney, Gre?.., ting the acts of the General Assembly to a popular Groesbeck. Hard, Hu)lbes, Kiit2, Iead(lietter, McC)orrmick, Per- vote. I will go as far as the gentleman does to prekins, Reeniielirt, Tliioipsoii of Shelly and Wilsor,-34. serve the republican character of thle government, and So the motion to strike out prevailed. to prevent the Legislature from passing bad laws, to The question then being on inserting,the words put uponl the people. The gentleman from Medina, proposed by the Committee of the Whole. [Mr. UMPHRaEVILLr,] admits that he would like the Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which section very well if the provision that general laws were ordered, and resulted veas 76, nays 17, as fol- should have an uniform operation had not been onit,ltows: ted. It was omitted because it means nothing. Whalit YE,s-Messrs Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of isontio"ery,i Barnett of Preble, Batesi Beiett, Blickensdefett B ow of it? "All1 laws of a general nature shall have an Atheis, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Cook, Far;, Foreice, uniform operation." It will not effect the object he Forbes, Gillett, G eecie of Defiance, Green of Ros:. Gregg, desires to secure. He says he does n(t want to give Groesbeck, Hamilton. Hard, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock the Legislature the power to tax dogs in one county, of Cuyaho~a, Ho~lmles, Ho't, Hootmanl, Hortons, Hulnipbrevitle, ** * of Cuysho'a, Hiiies, Holt, Hootinaii Hortot Hnoipbcvillc, unless it is, at the same time, done in all. This would Jones, King. Kir kwoodl, Larwill, Leadit,etter, Lidey, Mason, Morehead. Morris, McCloud, Nasli, Norris, Orton, Otis, Pat- Iot prevent it. A law to tax dogs in Hamilton counterson, Peck, Quiley, Ramiey, Rddle, Sawyer, S,ott of Au- ty would be a local, not a general law. What I want glaize, Sellers, Sithi of Highland, Sil of Warren, Smith of to provide is, that no law shall ever be submitted to gyandot, Seanbers, St.iii~o ihando, Stebins th le o ficney ;Wyandot, S nhery Sta,ton,f Stettl)iis, Stilweil, Stisckney the popular vote for adoption or rejection. I am wilStiuger, Struhle, Swian, Swift, Taylor, Tolnpsotin of Shelby, Tlioniipsoti of Stark, Townshend, Vanice of Butler, Vance of ling to except laws for the regulation of public schools Champaign, Warren, Williamrs, Wilson, Woodl ury, Worth. and that is as far as I will go. I hope the gentleman intron and President- i6. from Hamilton will now consider me as one of the 'NAYS-Messrs. Brown of Carro-1, Case of Hocklig, Collings Cutler, Eart G a Hawins Hii, Jollso ar, eec, friends of the principle, for the objections I have made Cutler, Eivart, G:-a.v, Hawkiins. Hi~m,, Johnson, Larshi, Leec,h, Matioti, Mitchell, lc,Coriiick, P:ikiiis, Reemelin atid Scott of are only to the mode of carrying it out. Itis not sufHarrison-17. ficiently direct and positive, as it is expressed in the So the motion to insert was agreed to. section as reported. The question then being e0 the twenty-sixth amend- Mr. REEMELIN. I recollect, when the question mnent, to-wit: In section 35, where towards the end was up before, the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. of the same, these words occur "may be sub-divided, STANBERY,] had inquired what harm there would be whenever," strike out "sub" in the word "sub-divid- in submitting laws to be voted on by the people. I ed," it wa: agreed to. I then asked him if he would be willing to submit the The question then being on the tvent-seventh question of marriage to a popular vote. The gentleamendment, to-wit: In section 35, near the end of the t man may consider himself a friend to the principle, same, strike oul "sub," in the word "sub-divided," i but I say to the friends of this section, Timeo Danaos it was agreed to. I et dona ferentes. Mr. STANBERY, mnoved to further amend the Re- Mr. STANBERY did not know what the gentleport by striking out section 29, and inserting in lieu man meant by his quotation. It could not be intendthereof tihe f ollowing: ed for him, for lie was neither a Greek nor a German. "SEGTION 29. The Legislative powers of this State (Laughter.) being vested in the General Assemnbly, no law, pass Mr. IlUMPHREVILLE moved to amend the sr ed by that body, shall ever be submittedto a popular tion proposed to be stricken out, by adding after vote for adoption or rejection, except in reference to the word "operation," the words, "throughout the public schools-and as otherwise provided in this State." Constitution." The question then being on the motion of Mr. HusM Mr. WORTHINGTON demanded a division of the PHPmEVILLE, the motion prevailed. questiotl. The question then being on striking out the sec The question then being on striking out, tion, Mr. REEMILIN wished to remind the friends of Mr. REEMELIN demanded the yeas and nays, the section, that this proposition comes from an ene I which were ordered, and resultedvyeas 42, nays 53, ty. If they desire to retain the provision in the Con- as follows: stitution, they had better vote against the amend re-s, Barlee. BarnetofMontgoinery, Bar inett of Preble,Btes B et,Bickensderfer, Brown o' Altehs moent. Bi'own (f Carteol, Chambers, Coilings, Coo]k, Cuiry. Cutier, Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. The amendment of the E vart, Florence, Gil ctt, Green of Rcss. G,'oebeck,'Hai ilton gentleman fromn Franklin, [Mr. STANBErtY,] leaves out Hawkins, Hitchcock of Cutyahoga, Holt, Hortoji, Hunt, L rsh one very material provision i nc orporated in the orig- Mallon Ma, oreead, Morris, MrCloud, BMcCornli(t, OlI .y, nia teria ~~~~~~~~ Peck, Rai ney, S~o,,t of Harrison, Smrith of ilighliand, St,anbery nal section. It is, that all laws of a general nature Stantoa ce ofaai gillandWorttntor — shall have an uniform operation. That should be re- NAY. —Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Farr, Fote's. Gray. tained. He looked upon it as of much consequence. G eeue it' Defianice, Gregsir, tard. Harlan, Hendlerson, Holres' If it had been continued in the amendment, he might o Hotiaii,Htiriptreville, Joliiisoti Jones King, Kirkwo Ia r,nee, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter,Lidey, Loudon, Mitcheill Nas' have voted for it. He thought, however, as the pro- Ni rn, Patterson, Perkini Gey l, ecc ncli, Rid ..'.... ~~~~~~~~~Norrili, Orton1, Patt,-rson, Perkiiis, (Aui,-Iey, Keemeclin, RidZposition came from an enemy, it should be viewed dle, Sawyer, Scott of Auiglai7ze, Sellers, Smnith of Warre, with suspicioli. Siith of Wy,atdot, Stebbiiis. Stilwell. Stickoey, Stidger, Struble, Mr. STANBERY. I would like to know how and e'Vance' Thoitipson of Soelbv Thomisno of Staik, Towits why the gentleman considers me an enemy to the i ident- 5 3. of Butler, Warreti,Wilson Wnndbury and Pres principle of the original section, and of the amend- So the motion to strike out was rejected. ment? Mr. WORTHINGTON moved to further amend the Mr. REEMELIN. From the speeches you have report, in section 35, by striking out all after the word made upon the subiect. "election," where it occurs the second time. Mr. STANBERY. Will the gentleman say that I Mr. GROESBECK moved to perfect the words proever tnade a speech in favor of submitting laws to a posed to be stricken out, by adding at the end thereof popular vote? the followin: 38 579 580 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12. enc.r of the gentleman, and his vote for his project, which he supposed he would take as an evidence that the claim was a just one. Mr. KIRKWOOD did not agree with the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. MANON,) that the section would forever put an end to the construction of all new counties. He thought the principle correct, that those interested in the question ot a new county, should dec ide the question. He desired that all those who were affected, should have a voice in the matter. He believed the section a good one, and should vote against any change. Mr. STANTON said he would go for the amendwent of the gentleman from Licking. It would cut off his occupation as a lobby, and that of lobbies ill general. The section,as had been observed would prohibit the making of new counties, but would not prevent the agitation of questions concerning them. He wanted that also to be stopped. Mr. MITCHELL moved to amend the words proposed to be stricken out by the motion of the gentleman from Licking, by inserting after the words "majority," where it occurs near the bottom, the following: "Of at least two-thirds of all the votes within the territory, to be included within thie new county, and a vote in each county to be affected, at least one half larger than the proportion of territory to be taken from any such county or counties. The PRESIDENT said this amendment would not now be in order inasmuch as it proposed to amend what the Convention had just refused to strike out. This could only be done by adding at the end, the proposed amendment. Mr. MITCHELL said that he then read it for information, with a view to so amend the section, if stricken out, under the motion of the gentleman from Licking, as to embrace the provision above, or something like it. Sir, I need hardly say here that I am utterly opposed to this corrupting new county mania, as it has manifested itself for years past, in Ohio, about our Legislature. And, I most devoutly desire to see an everlasting end put to this odious and hateful proceeding. But sir, to attain this good and just end, I would not resort to an unjust nieanis. I cannot sir, regard the proposition as a just one, which attempts to tie to on) particular county, a single township most inconveniently situated; the position of which could be greatly improved, by uniting it with oth. vr territory, which has agreed to receive it, simply because a majority of the county, to which it is attached, will not consent that it should be relieved from its position. Sir, this rule is too severe to meet the approval of a just community. The proposition I have just read will, in my judgment, prevent the making of all new counties, which ought not to be made and a just claim, if anv shall arise, should not be defeated by measures which justice cannot sanction. I have before submitted my views on this matter and need not now further repeat them. I had hoped that something such as I have proposed would have been mn atured and offered by somne other member before this time. I should have proposed this amendment, this morning, at another time, had I not been taken by surprise by thle vote. I fear, however, I am in a lean minority on this subject. The vote on striking out will perhaps show. I shall vote for it only with the design of amending as above suggested. I am decidedly in favor of the object of th is se ction. The question then being on the amendment of Mr, MANON. "But no town or city within the same shall be divided;" which was agreed to. The question then being on striking out, Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 27, nays 67, as follows: YXAs-Messrs. Blair, Farr, Forl e;, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Humphreville, Johnson, King, Larsh, Larwill. Leech, Leadbetter. Lidey. Lou(non, Mitchell, Patterson. Qligley, Ranney, Scott of Auiglaize, Sellers, Srm~ith of Wvandot Stebbins, Stickney. Stidger, Thompson of Stark and Worthington-27. NAYS-Mssrs. Andrews, Barlgee, Ba rnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickenisderfer. Brown of Athens. Brown of Carroll, Cahill Chambers, Chaney, Collingi,s, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Gray. Green of Ross, Groe.beck, Hamilton), Harlan, Hawkins, Hendersoui, Hitchcock of Cnivahog-a, Holhnes, Holt, Hootrrmatn, Horton, Hunit, Jones, lXirkwood, Manou, Mason, Morehead, nlor. ris, McCloud. McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Peck Perkins, Reenmelin, Riiddle, Sawver, Scott of Harrison. Srmiith of Highland, Smnith of Warren, Stanliery, Stantoii, Stilwell, Strtisle, Swan, Swift. Thoinpsoii of Shellby, Towniselcd. Van,ce of Btlter, Vance of Clhamprnraigi, Warren Williarmis, Wilson, Woodbury an d Presidebt-t-67. So the mo tion to strike o u t was rejected. Mr. MANON move d to furthe r amen d the section by st riking out the following: "C ontaining less than four hundred square miles of territory, nor shall any county b e reduced below that amount. and all laws provid in g for change s in county lines, or for the r emoval of cou nty seats, shall first be submitted to the qualified voters within such county or counties, at a general election, and only be valid when appro ved by a majority of the voters voting at such election." Mr. MANON said it should be the object of the Convention to have notjrhing in the Constitution that wa s unnecessary, an d he had all along, made it a rule to vote for nLothi ng that he did not understand. The section as it now s tands, ptovides as effectual ly e gainst another new county ever being formed, as if it were positively provided against, as it would be if his motioni should prevail. No man would believe that as it stands, another new county can be constructed, unless he is hoodwinked and misled by the verbiage it contains. It is sai d that in the territory of the State, there is enough, if accura tely divide d, to make some four or five new counties, and there are not less than twenty-five different projects to employ it for the benefit of as many proposed county seats. Projects are going on in every direction to cut the old counties, for the purpose of making new ones, and if this provision was allowed to stand as it is. it would array the friends of every new county plan in the State against the Constitution, and lie did not believe there would be any votes to spare. He thought that if we were to venture so much, the provision might as well be positive at once, and that would cut off all agitation upon the subject. Mr. PATTERSON said he had read, " train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." He did not know but the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. MANON,) might be an exception to the rule. The first time he recollected having met that gentleman, was at Columbus, while he was quite young and before his beard was grown, during a session of the General Assembly, lobbying for a new county. He doubtless understands the iniquity of the occupation, and though very zealous in it once, seems disposed now to put an end to it, not only in his own case, but in all others. Mr. MANON did not know what the gentleman meant by his beard not being grown. He was at Columbus, and lobbying for a new county, but not to divide Licking. He lived in another part of the State. lie had. then no interest in the matter, but was hired and paid to go He had, he also recollected, the influ. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEdNESDAY, FEBaUARY 12. Mr. KIRKWOOD proposed to perfect to the words proposed to be stricken out, by striking out all after the word "biennially," and insert as follows: I'"from and after the first day January, A. D. 1853, until which time the General Assemrnbly shall meet on the first Monday of January annually. The question then being on the motion of Mr. KIRKWOOD, Mr. KIRKWOOD said it would be seen that his amendment would make just this change il the provisions of the section, and no other. If it stands as it is now, there will be one session commencing on the first day of January 1854; under the amendment, there would be one commnencing on the first day of January, 1853-one session more thcla would be otherwise holden. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. Would it not change the regular sessions from the even to the odd years? Mr. KIRKWOOD. It would. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. That ought not to he done. Mr. KIRKWOOD. I desire to give the opportuni. ty for two sessigosh of the General Assombly, to adapt the legislation of the State to the provisions of the new constitution. If this is not doiie, there must necessarily be a very long session, which might create a prejudice iii the people of the State, againstthe principle. Besides, it may be, that under a new state of thiings the Legislature may make some laws that oughlt Inot to stand for two years. They might give the machine a wrong direction, and the result would be injurious. He had as much respect for the General Assemnbly as any other man, but it is fallible and composed of fallible men, and men liable to err even from good motives. He could see no objection. It makes only one session nlore, at most. Mr. SAWYER said this amendment was offered yeste r day, in commit tee of the whole, and vote d down, bv a very considerable majority. It was a singular cou rs e th at ge nt lemen we re pursuin g, to o ffer the same proposition day after day, to occupy th e time of th e convention in d ebati ng and disagreeing to it. He hoped it would not prevail, and that gentlemen would let us go on, and do our work. Mr. KIRKWOOD said lie did not tlin,k to ask liberty of hth gendtlerman from Ate glaizu. wehei he offere d his amend ment. He h ad offered it itn good faith, he believed it to be right, and desired to record his vote upon it. Mr. HOLT concurred with the gentleman from Rich, land, [Mr. KIRKWOOD.] He had, from the first, been in favor of biennial sessions, but he wished to make one suggestion firther, il support of the amendment. The convention has agreed to the report of the committee on Jurisprudence, which provides that, at the first session of the General Assemblv, after the adoption of this constitution, a commission shall be raised, whose duly it shall be. to make an entire chianige and revision in the rules of practice of the courts of State. Before the provisions of the report of that commission can take effect, it must be made to, and acted upon, by the General Assembly, and some time roust elapse, before it can be done. It has been said, that in New York, the great difficulties that have arisen under their new metto of procedur-e, havre been the result of defectivre legislation, immrediately after their new constitultionl was adopted. Under the sectionl as it now stands, the commitltee can make no report under two years. With this reason, and that suggested by tile gentlemana from Richlland, it seems evident, that we shall require two or three years of annual sessions —and if so, it may as well be provided for in the constitution, as to call on the Governor for the purpose. Mr. RIDDLE demanded the yeas and mays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 24, nays 69, as follows: YExs.-Messrs. Barnett of Prel-le. B!i(k I nsderfer,Brown o Carroll. Caste of HoCkir, g. Co!ints. Cu'!v. Ciiter. Ewart. Gi ett, Gra, HaI,iltonr, Ha-d, Laish, Malioi. Mitchell, More Ciea o,iMc ud, MtCir mick N —si, Perkins. Scott ofHarrisoni Startton, Swift and Williaii —24. s-es's. Andrewss. Bar,bee. Barier of Montgomery, Bates, B~ andett i r, Brow of Ateii, Calil, Chalbers, C!trianev, Farr, Florentice, F inrtes, Green e of D efia the, G dree- of .oq,lso G:eMr, Goesl,e,Kk. IIireair, Hawkins, teedersop, Hitchcoch ft Cu;yalhoTa,Holertess, Hohi Gel, HAootniai, Horton,Hsotehrevilte, Hulnt, Johrison, Jo-es,. King, Kirkwoodi. Larwil!, Leal etter. Lde, LoaIdon. Mas i, r is ton, t asI m r,Nor s. Ot rso, Otss, Patoersono Peck, Qsisey, migh evre, b iRid i ldle, Sdawyer. Scott ef uglaize. Sel rs, Sith of Hgad, Sn of anWar ren, nit of Wyantdo, Stanbhery, Stti lds, Stilbd ell, Si,-kney. Std. m der en, Strthle, Swa, Tavl or, Tthoesn the Shellv, Tlaoeps dong f Seark, Vamce of Btaer, W arren, W nilson,l Wmoolbury, tiVl ortvlii nbtogi aisd Prebsiderit —t. So the n motion to strike out was rejected. Mr. NASH moved to further amend th e R epor t, by striking out sebtio n 23,a nd inserting in lieu thereof the following: MISEcr- 23. T he f irst s essi on of t he G en eral Assembly, under.his Constitution, shall be he ld oi i the first Monday of .antuary, A. D. 1852, anad biennially thereafter on the first t rIonday of panuary, and at no ot her t ime, u nless the General Assemtly, sh all, by law, pr ovi de for an extra session, or otherwise provided for in this Const itution." -,r. LARWILL demaend ed a division. The question then bein g on striking c out s ection 23. wIr. NASHe said there were, in rega rd to this se eurset certain questions wich gentlemen had better settle, and one was whether under thi. section, the Gen-eral Assemenbly might nlot unde r a mere r e sol utioh to adjourn, provide for an extra session.. For instance, if it should be deemed expedient to hold a session commaencig on the first of Ja r,,ury of thee next year, all t,hat they need do would be to pass a resolution to meet on that day, and the thing w oul d be done. UTnder t he propos ed amendment, they would be prohibited from so doing, except under the fojrmality of a law; and they could not in effect nullify the provision ofthe coIlSstitutioul g)ovidinve for biennial sessions, by a mere resolution of adjournment. Mir. RANNEY. What would be the difference? MNr. NASH. A law must be introduced with the constitutional formalities. It nmu.st be read three times in each brauch of the Legislature on three several davs, and cannot be passed without such notice as will awak e opposition, if there i s any to b made. On the c on trary, a resolution may be sprung upon the Legislature at perhaps the last moment of the session, and forced through without scrutiny oi investigation. Such a thing olgit, if done at all, to be done deliberately. Mr. CHAMBFERS thought there was force in the reinarks 3f the gentleman from Gal!ia [Mr. NAsH.] He thought the matter had better be provided for, than qo open a door for the practice of having annual sessiionls ly a mere adjournment. He recollected the extrai sess o-ef 1842, had been brouglht about in that witly. Thiere was neither lav, tor resolution for the purpos e butt merely an adjourtnent over to the first daiy of July next. ,M1lr. RANNEY thought the object of the amendment of tile genxtleman fromn Gultsa. was to provide by lawV for annual sessions. It iuin efet'ct a surrender of the whole principle of biexinial sessions. The gentle.mana fromn Franklin, [.M.STaNnV.RY,] offred an amenldm~ent yesterday, providing that the matter should be left to the Legislature It was voted down. To-day it is renewed by the gelntleman from Gultsa, lo another form. He hoped the section would not be stricken out. It would give morecurrency to the constitution with the people, and enlist their opinions in its support, more th an any other section in the constitution. 581 582 O-TICI CONVENTION DEBATES-WVEDN-EsDa~Y, iEERUARYh 12 Convention is simply tS[i' Shall the public priltii_g be given out by co.ac,t to the lo est bidder, or shall a State Printer be (lected by the people, with hiis coms pensation ioxed by law A large amount of timie and m roney, Ir. Pesidet, has been spent, at nearly every sesion of the Genera As,sembly, ill nbin, and arungtiltg, and quairei ing on the subject of State Piint,ii. And in. tlese. fierce contests what has beei the question at issue" The real quoestion has gecnerlally been, -lwho shall do, the printiig, aindl i,it vhs+at prices shall be pai L.,et , us, they, sir, applv the proper remedy to thi5 evi. Let us provide in t1 Ctimstitutiot, for tihe eleetionl of - a State Priinter by the pople and this disgustiug an! expensive str.fe Ius t cease. Sii, there are numerous aid weighty reaiso.os wlhy T I ani opposed to the,cltract svsteoi"-opposed to giving out the p uabic pril,tiig to the lowest bidder One of tle most proinlil I:t of tb'ese reasons is, that thisi systeim will tend to de r,aide a highly honorable and preemlinenlltly useful pro.eCssiol. If it secures the object which its friend.s aid advoca-O,tes have iin view,. hits inevitable tendency wsill be to degraode laber. IIA this position, I ani alunodantly sustained bv bctl rea — F son an d ex]erienee. If contractors vwill agree to do, a sth-e State ptiit.ting at el-treniely low prices, tey cais — oiot afford to payv fir wagesto the printers i,; theirTeqs n nplov. Tbohe rmlttv -cit will be, thiat the weaRes o' tlejiourineyrian i prioter;-s -,io (lo toe worlk, will bec- redtice- below a livina' stand-(1d —thit thiey wi e grbeorl;lLh ownn to the stoariii' poiot. Dc geintlemeai desire e ee to prevenut this state of tlhiirJs? If so, let them vote to sCistaih iiy nort,io t o t strike out tiXs setilm. 1i; shoiold be thie object of governosent, sir to riotec't aid eleaevate labor, aid lset to depress o0 0 c-rade it. ' Why is it, Mr. Presi'det, that tihose whs are iin fi vor of providing tiat the State pri:.tin. shall be givren to the lowest bidder, do not propo' to apply the sahmoe rule to the o-iier pu,blic 1ussiness of the State?Why do tlihev nos propose to: gifve thre off,e of Gover nor, or St,ate Auditor, -r Siat'- Tiea-rer, o>r Secretary of State, or Attorney G enal, (to the lonwest bid-deti There are doubtless n mers ii:iniviruals wiL-Ltbin tlhe limits of the State, who would be williln- to. l{rferi the duties of these oSe. s for iuttcil tov'er salairies tlxhan are nowv paid to th1i1 itcu ioenits. A1dii yet to ie0t tleriani on this floor Vul iin, I fci olfe mnaoei't,, 0 "lettiin tliemii on cowtract, to tle st bidder.3 Whyr this distinc:tion? Whyll~ tki:3s',neoXsi.ste'net9 I hope, sir, that Irly -Noto5 I: ay preail lihat the SeCtionl ma,y be St]rickie out. ier. HAM ILTON. I think the gentlninan froim G uern nsey, (Mr. Larca,) is rathier une a istake as. to tmihe opinion of the select coinimtte to which this natter was referred. I vas one of that co'mittee antid I certainly wa5sa surprised to hear the erj'tlemrlan say that the comnmii"tee would report in a certain way. T'hat fact w,v, as certainly unikniown to me. vIer. LEECI. The gentlenman from lniiion misun.derstood mte. I did not mean to say that the conminit - tee as a whole would report in a certain way, but that I believed that a majority of the cormmittee would do so. And sir, I certainly believed that the gentlemanfrode Un ion wfas in favor of the Report to be presented by the select ccommittere. nMr. HAMILTON, Mr. Presldeut. Nothing but the imost imperative feeling of duty could induce nie to rise to my feet in this couvention, to make a single observation, or use a single mnoment of its time. I had hoped to be able to do my whole duty, by voting upon. the various questions that might arise here, but sir, I find myself driven into a, corner and compelled to ask uor e indulgence of the convention for a short time, to a Ti-lE PU3LIC PRINTING. Mr. LEECH. I,T ed to fu,rthler amrend the Report by strikin, ollt, section 7, v. lich reads as follows: "T'he priintins of tlie lavs, journls, blls, and legiS Iitive doculmlelots and papers for each branch of tlhe (Gneral Assembi7t)ly, togethIer with the prinrting required fori the execntirve departiment and other oficers of the State, shall be let oni contract to the lowe.st resp,clisible b idd er, av such exec utiv e officers, and in sh mode and mianner as shall be prescribed by 1L,V. " The question then b~eing on the amendment of AIr. 1!1.-JEECt. Mr. LEECOI. IIr. President: This is a subject in whiehl I feel con~,iderable interest, and I trust the (Conivention till ii,du.ge rme in a few general remarks in support of my mnotion. Thie section wbhMi:h I have proposed to striike out, p.ovidls thatl the piblic lpriniting of the State';shall l:,e let on contract, to the lowest responsible bidder, by such executive officers, and in such mdode and manh. r, as shall be prescribed by law." The select comittee, of which. I have the heTr or to be chairm an, and towhem wi-\va, referred the communication fi'om the Editoi'ial State Convention, have had this subject undier consideration, am)d intend, if the section is stricke>n out, to report, at an early day, a section providing for the election Of a State Printer by the people, w,vhose compensation shall be fixed by law. The quesliorn, thei, presented for the consideration of the I '7here was sach an o,iest' for eight years-from 1837, In the year 1836-7 a State Priuter (Medary,) was 'to 18.4! i-cicusive,a'ii I l:ave taken the trouble to hlunt elected by the Le.iFslatore, and he continued in that :p some sta.ities' relatio to tie cost of the public office till it'as abhlishe( by tle Whigs in 1845-6, p,,riiiting during there, iiit years, and also, during a wlhenl thle printinn( was lt to the lovest bidder (Scott,) eiod fhee yearswher the pritiig of the Stae was for four years. But to the figures' set to the lowest bitdder, as pis 3roposed in the section, o t PPrnntier. hhSenat e. House. nlow io-sed tro be struck out, aid i fid a most strikiing Mdar isg j~iedary. Whiig. Whiig. 1837-8 $18,129 ,e'nrstuast between thie expet-nse undr thi.e two nmodes of Domll Deni. 1838-9 19,281 disposing of it. 183940 4271 1839-40 924,2271 Bat tie expeuse of the prnting properis not all-it Whig,. " 1840-1 27,529 'sa well knowri fact, that it has conissumried a great deal', Deo. Dein. 1841-2 28,791 'fi the tiso;' t3e Leg-os3!attre-ttiereshv iicreasing the " " 1842-3'. 1,371 7..epens3e of Tt lan,ely. Wiy sir whiat is the usual.' 1844 1779 "it~~~, ~, i hl g. 1844-5 16,0439 node of proceedit,S when the Legisatatre, meets? It, " Whig. 1844-5 16048 4,rganizes-vl;ea it cae —and i,e thie subjtct of print- Scott. " " 45-6 1 0,908 uig cotrnes up, aid for tw(o or tliree weeks little else is " " 1846-7 10,065 Fi', o't dis$cuss the great quetsioi-the question for.. 1848-9 10,339 a-,tr1eh a1l otlhersf,,pear t,s be t-tade. "'Wio shall have* h a o i pecr h id ri shalt The above table shows that in the egolht vears that the State printing-and vwhit stlall he have for'it" " I Yn s i ot i tt.5.o iif,'5 t the pristing was done by a "State Printer," the'ag!aln letti g itisyt, iat v s t t, nies t tao serve thte gregate cost of it wvas $173,200. Out of this sumi I tal who m~y have b~ee best; fite - to serve thc believe the following sulns should be deducted, to -iubi, st~,o od -,2o elate Igainst th'-e ma,-n whio served the uui, stood no c e gains t'e nin wo served the wit: For paper furnished, $14, 500; for binding, $7,,"Jolinanvlt party —e,vte,n heg te,formiier would do i I-u!t QtYen - t-i formerwould do it 500. These suois deduLcted leave $151,200, which fio less than alf tidesurn that the,o lat ter would. In-. e lee s ho ii ove t h, la*ftt er would. In was paid foir the printing alonie. Divide this by deed ~.o lookw over thie table of thte exrpenlses of prirnting * acedn~ tOln'rtet~'e ss fpieight, and it gives the av era ge cost per year for the inthi S ia6l:, ilokas 1l.~ough b i,ae surm give~n could for printiten ight year,-;-that is, $18,900. It will be recollected ' v1o lv bee iut lnce si *:t OvurSileOStIOil for priting that Scott was not peri-iitted to fulfil his cointract, for Lif,, bt also, to pay th3e Edotor of bognot iithe org of te i te session of 1848-9-the last year of his contract pariy, in po,r,s,er —for his abors of lot,e il the seice tie prntingvwas given to Madary. Put it will also o~f his lfarty. Tlis would (iot be so oijectcionable if be seen, by reference to the ibove table, that the aparty service, was pu)li serv ce. But thIe most zeal- gregate cost of the State printing, during the three < ous dev otee cf party is ul t always thie rmost faithful years that it was done under lthe contract witllh Scott, ,srvant of tie tubtli. ITh er is such a thinig as"giv- was $31,312, or anl averar,e of 810,437 per year, being lng 01) togIa party, whlast was nmeant for mankiud" — $7 463 less per year tlan, -Was paid for the State an I a ropposed to tabig mankind to fatten the w n toe ya ae Pite prin~tingIl wh-enl dIone by a "'Sta,ite Printer-." -irur~kti'sftie the press and sikt:2 k l g, SE 0;. of Iai ty.'ble the press and WThe very next year, 1843-9, 9the srisntiing cost $17,'hthe (Go Setrm susl astia, thi' relatioo shis p that they now 015, or $6,578 nmore than the average coIst of the three do, t ~oul~ no~suprise us if bo,th, should occasional, it 1io1i it iii eS if a' snold occasional years it hlad been done under Scott's contr-act. And 'ye it a i ttle \ layI k of that t ih1 toned purity of it will be seen by reference to Auditor Woods' last weslio i hic7i- ioula..l charac'te;risze tlaem. report, that the priating for 1849-50, amounts to $26, vWhi, sir, iown is it now A partisan press fights, 220, or a little imore than twvice and one half times as anld piits, and citenclates, and spends nionsey mnost mrnuch as its average cost when done under that conr'ee1yv, to get its party i.aito power —what for? For the tract. For what was this extrav,agant expenditure p-,tbii 0; ~(d'? You caninot tell, for the life of you, mnade? Was it for the public good? I leave others t) w.het:isst is the piublic veal s,r their own aggrandize- answer. And yet, ia the face and eyes of all these ment, that~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ they r ozaosfr hi at n ,It- -hat:they are so Zealons for. Their party and facts, we are asked to continuse to give the Legislature the4-i elves sink ad swimt together-or, at least, if a the control of the State printing. For I apprehend party 5 in5k i- i otra docH not go on so "swimmingly," that the gentlemnois who wish to create the office o 584 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12. State Printer, do not intend to give him unrestricted be struck out, and the plan of electing a State Printer control of the public printing, and if they do, I should be selected. feel more opposed to giving it to him than to leaving If a State Printer be elected, the Legislature must it with the General Assembly. have the control of the whole matter, or give it to the Loig beforethis Convention wascalled, I expressed State Printer. And in either case the same results a hope that if it should be called, this eternal bone of mnigh-t follow, that have heretofore followed this mode contention, this eternal theme of wrangling, should of disposing of the Printing. How do gentlemen ac be taken out of the hands of the Legislature, and I count for the increased cost of Printing in the last two hope the Convention will do it, in the manner pro- years, over the cost of the three years preceding-a,x posed in this section. cept by party favoritism. This Coivention has beguni There can be no cause to fear that the printing of to clean out thile "Augean Stables," and I hope it wilt the State will not be well done by letting it to the complete the job, and not leave thils-ihe foulest stain lowest bidder. N5o complaint was ever made, to my of all, untouched. recollection, when it was done under contract. Cer- Mr. SAWYER. Oie word, Mr. President, i repl tainly the taxpayers had no cause to conaplain. Pal- to what fell from the geiitlemat} from Guernsey. Tthe try as the sum may have appeared to legislators'of gentleman says that the design or the effect of this sec capacious souls," and disgraceful as they might have tioni will be to degrade labor, and lie asks if the print thought it for them to interpose to save the trifling ing for the State is to be let out to the lowest bidder, difference per year of $7,463, the taxpayer can see why not let out tihe office of Governor, and Auditor that in the thirteen years which have elapsed since a and Secretary, ani, Treasurer, and ill fact every otheE State Printer was first created, this difference between State office. No donl;t, Mr. President, that manlly erseu the cost of the State Printer plan and the contract might be found who would accept these offices at a plan would amount to $95,212, to which should be much lower rate of remuneration than is now paid for added perhaps an equal, or greater sum, to pay for the the duties performed; brt ihowvi such ipersos would time spent by the Legislature in wrangling about it, discharge the duties of these offices, is another matter much to its discredit. I take no pleasure in making Now, sir, in almost ill our transacL'-ions in life, w,, such a statement, bit it is so notoriously true, that it let out our work to the lowest bidder. It is supposed would be veiy great folly ill any gentleman to get up of course, that mechainics ond others, who have worl here aid deny it. The people all know these things to do. are acquainted with their own business and. are so, and thley ask with one voice that this Conven- know the value of laboy and materials. Now, sir, it tion shall forever separate the press and the govern- is quite obvious that we catlnot let out the office of ment. I should, perhaps, except from this remark the Auditor of State to the lowest bidder, because mel Editorial Convention, a body for which I have very would bid for it who are utterly unqualified. The' great respect, and with which I differ with great re- printing, however, is another matter. It is a piece cl luctance. But I know these men, and I know they mechanical labor only, and like all other mechankica would despise me if I had not the independence to labor, has its value ill tile market. We filnd this is the speak lhy opinioni, though different from theirs. course pursued by nmany of the State Governmeints, as; Gentlemen with whom 1 have talked on this sub- well as by the goverlment of the United States. atject, appear to entertain fears that printers would bid though in the latter case, I will admit, not withl very so low, if the prilnting be let to the lowest bidder, that great success, for reasons which are well knlown t, they would ruin themselves. I have no such fears. yourself and othem. I believe that that is the only Printers are shrewd chaps, and are not so green as to way in which we can get clear of this difficulty, Nor propose to do the State printing at ruinous rates. At do I think that a,iy printers will consider tliemrnselves any rate, if they bite themselves, let them do like degraded by bei,ng asked to state the lowest price for other people do-suffertheconsequences. which they will do ceitain work. If Mr. Medary Both plans have been tried, and I believe it is not thinks proper to make a bid for the work, hie knows a": denied but that the printing was as well done under what price hlie can (do it, and so it is with Mr. Scott the plan of letting it on contract to the lowest bidder, I have no particular objection to the election of a Stat. as it ever was done. And if printers suffered by it, Printer by the people, but I think it is liot at all neces it is news to me. I never heard that Scott loast aniy sary. thing by doing the State printing for $10,437 peryear, Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I rise to say, that I h,p or that he ever complained of his bargain, Nor did the section will be stricleni out. Sir, although it hIa; I ever hear that the State Printer, (Medary,) made any been shown that there have been frauds ut)oi the treathing, thotgh he got $18,900 per year. Some printers ury under the system of electing a State printer, by are like some other people-if they get little they have the Legislature, and( fixi ng his fees by legsleatioil, or a I no lack, and if they get much they have nothing to lowing him to fix theni for himseilf, it has not yet beer. spare. shown, that gross frauds have not been committed upor I do not wish to see a State Printer elected, upon the treasury, by letting out thile printing to the lowest whom the public money is to be lavished as formerly, bidder. or who shall have the power to lavish it upon favor- Sir, there are many reasons which might be asites. I love the printers, but I would not levy a tax signed, why we ought Dot to ieake it imperative that: upon the million, to make one of theiim rich. this work should be let out to the lowest bidder. Sir, I hope I shall not be charged with an intention to if I could have my way in the matter, so rar from 1ayvget up any party feelingon this subject, by contrasting ing this work done, as it has been done heretofoire, I the case of the State Printing, under the plan of elect- would adopt a plan sometliug like this: I would elect ilg a State Printer, and of letting it to the lowest bid- an officer to be called a State printer, and by law preder, or with an intention to cast odium upon Mr. Me- scribe his duties,aud fix hisi compensation, and his dllty dary, for taking all that the Legislature was willing to should be to superintend the printing of the State, and give him for it. I have no doubt but other men can then, I would establisih a State printing office, to do be found who would do the same thing, and I want the the business of the State. The materials should be gate shut. I have stated the facts in relation to the provided at the expense of the State, under the superState printing heretofore, for ths purpose of showing vision of the State printer, and he should go on, and what may be done if the section under consideration employ journeymen at a fSir compensations and th u s OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12. the State printing could be done for what it is reasona. gentleman's position be correct, it substantiates my ily worth to do it. Now, I do not believe that there is argument. It proves that the effect of the "contract a man in the State, who would not lbe willing to pay system" would be to decrease the wages of printers, what the printing is reasonably worth. and, thereby, tend to depress and degrade labor. Now, how is it to be ascertained what it i- worth, or Sir, I am unable to discover any reasonable objecwhat the lowest bid is? And, sir, until the work is. tion to the election of a State Printer by the people completed it is impossible to tell which will be the And as to his compensation, there can be no difficulty lowest, because, for different branches of the labor, whatever. That will be left to the General Assembly. different rates would be proposed, so that, let a man Surely' the representatives of the people can determine who is ever so well acquainted with the subject of what is a fair, honest, and just compensation. printing, examine the bids to see which is the lowest, The gentleman from Union has referred to Samuel and men of the best judgment, in regard to the matter, Medary and the State printing. That is an old, hackmay differ. It has been suggested, also, that where neyed subject. It has long since become too stale this plan has been adopted in Congress, it has not work. to excite any interest; and I shall not occupy the time ed well, and we all know, that the public documents of this Convention in noticing that part of the gentlewhich have been printed for Congress, under the con- man's argument. The whig slang about " Medary tract system, are very inferior, both as to workmanship and the State printing" has long ago "exploded into and paper-that the work was such as ought not to thin air." have been accepted under any contract. Sir, as one I understood the gentleman from Union to be in faevidence of the frauds that may be perpetrated on the vor of electing a State Printer by the people; and I treasury under this bidding system, I wfll merely state learn from the other nmember of the committee, the what has been stated to me as a fact, and which I be- gentleman from Sandusky, (Mr. ORTON,) that he so lieve, is a fact pretty well known, for it was mentioned understood him. But it appears that we were both in the debate in the Senate of the United States, onil the mistaken. subject of the Congressional Printing. When the A word now, in reply to the gentleman from Auconvention oi Wisconsin, proposed to let out their glaize, (Mr. SAWYER.) He claims that we cannot let printing to the lowest bidder, who was to give security out to the lowest bidder, the several State offices which for the due performance of the work, among various I have namied. But he does not assign any reasons bids, there was one proposing to set all the types for why this cannot be done. It has never been done, and one cent per tlhousand ems, an d to do the press work, for that reason, I suppose, he infers that it is impossifor one cent per token, and it has been said, that tpese Ile! if so, I have only to say that I do not admire his men made a profitable contract out of it, by some mode logic. of charging, with which I am not acquainted; so that Mr. OR'rON. As amember of the Select Commit. by this mode, we do not shut the door against fraud, as tee on the resolutions of the Editorial Convention, I the gentleman from Union, desires to do. Then, Sir, I have been referred to by the gentleman from Guernsey, think the best way, is to adopt the plan of having the (MR. LEEcH.) I have to say that I certainly underprinting done at a reasonable rate, which undoubtedly stood the gentleman from Union, (Mr. HAMILTON,) as can be done, and save the State a great deal of money, favoring the election of a State printer by the people, under the supervision of an experienced printer, elected but, as that gentleman denies that such are or have for the purpose, by the people. In that way, we will been his sentiments, I am bound to suppose that I have open the door for the election of a competent printer, misunderstood him. anywhere in the State, and it is not necessary that he Mr. HAMILTON (interposing,) I told the gentleshould reside at the seat of government, when elected. man from Sandusky, that I was in favor of the recom. Now, then, as to the advantage of the State furnish- menrdation of the Editorial Convention which refers to tshing the materials. A certain amount of printing will publishing the new Constitution, but no reference was always have to be done for the State, andi it appears to made to the election of a State printer. me, that it would be much cheaper, to have a State print- Mr. ORTON. The explanation of thegentleman from ing office furnished with the requisite materials, with a Union, (Mr. HAMILTON,) is entirely satisfactory to me, suitable person in charge, to be elected by the people. and I wishl distinctly to disclaim any imputation upon There canll be little doubt, that this would be deci- that gentleman. dedly the cheaper way. On the otherhand without such While up, 1 desire to say that I:hope the section will a plan as this, there is no use in talking about the elec- be stricken out and that the Convention will make protion of a State printer by the people, because no man vision some where in the Constitution, for the election would be willing to purchase the necessary materials of a State printer, by the people, the reasons which' and machinery requisite for the work, knowing that at operate upon my mind why this should be done, are the expiration of his term of office, he might be super- numerous, and I believe the same which operate upseded by some other person, and have the whole of these on the minds of almost all the printers in the State. materials thrown upon his hands,worth perhaps little or Sir,[ venture to saythat at least, nine outloften oftithem nothing. For these reasons, I am opposed to this let- are in favor of this proposition. And, Mr. President, ting of the public printing by contract. I wish to have let me say that it is with no selfish considerations that [t done in as economical a manner as possible, andat the most of them entertain this opinion-for there are but same time, pay a fair compensaiton to those wbo are to very few of them indeed that have any idea of bedo the work. ing personally benefitted by such a provision. They Mr. LEECII. I have but a few words more to say know that it is impossible that many of themn can be on this subject. benefitted. Theiropinions are made up from aknowledge The gentleman from Union, (Mr. HAMILTON,) con- of the subject-a knowledge permit me, with great detends that the State printing would be done cheaper ference, to say, superior to that possessedby members under the system provided for in this section, than 1y here, who do not belong to the profession, and from a State Printer elected by the people. This might, which therefore, they are better capable of judging. and it might not be the case. I propose that the Gent- Now there are three methods by which the State elal Assembly shall fix by law, the compensation of printing has been done and by which it may be done; the State Printer; and that body might fix his corm- one is to elect a State printer, by the Legislature, an. pensation so low that no other person would be wit- other to let out the printing to the lowest bidder, and uing to do the public printing for less. But, if the. the third is to have a State printer elected by the peo 585 586 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12. ernment exists as a State government, printing will have to be done. Now sir, I desire to take this matter of public print. ing entirely away from the Legislature. Does the section which it is proposed to strike out do this? I contend that it does not. Why? What do we find under the contract system when the contract for print in g is professedly let out to the lowest bidder? Sir, we find in the Legislature, parties arrayed against each other, striving to get the contract for their favorite printer. We find one party declaring that the printing of Medary was lower than that of Scott, and we find the friends of Scott on the other hand making the same claim for his printing over that of Medary. How did this happen? How was it that in either case one could be charged with receiving a higher price than the other proposed to do it for, when perhaps the bids of these two parties might be much about the same? Simr. ply because the people were not acquainted with these bids, and because they would often be made, not in good faith, but for the purposes of deception. It is, sir, with the view of getting rid of these underhanded practices and partizan wranglings that I shall vote for the election of a State Printer by the people. It is de sirable, sir, especially desirable. that he Legislature should be removed from any improper influences of the public press, especially when that influence might be exercised for the aggrandizement of the owners of that press. By the nmode thus proposed, this would be effectually accomplished, for you would have the samne assurance that this officer, a State Printer, would be as far removed from party influences as any other officer of the State, elected by the people. Besides this, Mr. President, it would be a great say ing of expense to the State, not only in the actual cost of the printing in the first instance, but in the saving of time in the Legislature. We are all perfectly aware, that it is usually the custom to debate this question of printing, for weeks, at an enormous cost to the State, of time and money, which would be altogether obvia ted by adopting the system proposed. I propose, then, Sir, that the people themselves, should settle this vexed question, and that these discussions and influences, will thereby be entirely removed from the Legislature. I a v er t hat I support this proposition, from the mr t honest motives, and I trust not only that thissectioi will be stricken out, but that the convention may nlti.. nately adopt the plan suggested by my colleague, [Mr. LEECiH,] and so ably supported by other gentlemen, who have spoken on the subject. Mr GREGG. I shall not vote in this convention, to put into this constitution, any provision designing to bring down any mechanical business to the lowest point to which it can be screwed down. In regard to the printing, I have seen both the contract systemi, and the mode of election by the Legislature, and I can say, that the contract system has generally ended in having poor work, and not much money has been saved bv it. The gentleman from Union, [Mr. HAMILTON,] said a few minutes ago, that he had never heard of any complaints under the contract systenm. I do not know what hlie may not have heard, but I am well aware, that 1] have heard complaints, and not a few of them. But, sir, whatever may be rmy opinion, in regard to the system hereafter, I shall vote for striking out this section from the constitution. I do not wish, then, that the price of printing for our State, or of any other mechanic al work to be done, shouldl be forever fixed beyond recaL Let the law regulate this matter, as it does cositracts-contracts for work upon yourcan::Ys, or on any other of your public imnprovements. Mr. LARWILL. I cannoot agree with the gentleman from Union, that this section;s going to accomplish any valuable end. I am in favor of economy5 pile, and his compensation fixed by the Legislature. The two first niethods have been tested in numerous instances and have been entirely exploded as a means of getting work well or cheaplv done. They have not been found t o answer any good purpose. Now the gentleman fr om Union, fav ored us with s om e s tatistics from which it might seem that this contract system was the best. These statistics were specious and plausible, but expe rien ce h as proved the conclusion intende d to be drawin fro m them to tbe false and hollow. I will take it for granted tha t the printing did cost as the gentleman says. There are several reasons for that wb ich would not exist under the plan of having a State printer elected by the people. The State printer elected at the time lo which he. refers was elected by a partizan majority of the Legislature and that majority also fixed the prices. I do not say that there was any corruption on the part of the Legislature. I know nothitng about it-not having been a resident uf the State at the time. But that body might have acted under feelings of party excitement and] prices might have thus been paid which would not have beetn given, if the bu. siin,ss had been done by a State printer, elected by the peto)le. In the next place, it should be remembered that the art of printing has greatly, improved within the last ten years. Materials are better and cheaperthe machinery pertaining to the business, cheaper, more perfect, and of greater capacity. Paper is 25 per c(enit. cheaper, and i-iaclkiniery has been brought to so high perfection that a practical saving of at least 25 per cent. ill the cost of labor niay be effected, as compared with the time to which the gentleman fromn Union refers. The comparison therefore, nmade by Slim iln relation to the prices then and now, is not a fair comparison; it does not place the question in its proper light. Had I known that this question was coming up, I wou'd have prepared myself with some further obse rvations, but being taken as it were, by surprise, I am ne)t able to -,ay all that I would desire to say on the , ubject. However, I leave it iil the hands of the Convention. Mr. LAWRENCE. I shall vote for striking ou this section,vith the intention of providing in the pro. per place, for the election of a State Printer by the peop'e. I shall do so from various considerations, one of which is the fact that I wish to throw open the p)eformaetce of these duties to the comrpetitionI of the p rinters throughout the State. I see no propriety for, nor any reason why the printing should be done bv the printers at Columbus all the time. Gentlemen m ay say that it is n ot intended to be so, but it h be oe o i n faet. Besides I see no propriety in letting out the performatice of these duties to the lowest bidder. We know that everv year there is printing for the State to be done; we know also tweet on every day, every week, every mouth, there will be duties to be performed by the Auditor or Secretary of State, and we elect these o'icers because we know their duties must be performed. Now we have joist the same certainty that printing will have to be done, and why not then nmake it as much a point to have a State Printer as any other officer of State? The gentleman from Auglaize says that if we are to elect a printer to do the State printing, which is a piece of mechanical work, and the price of which varies according to the price of labor and ma terial, why not carry out the principle to all work to be done for the State, and whenever any piece of work was to de done on any of your public improvements, call for an election by the people of the party to perform it? Sir, the answer to this is very easily given. When work of this sort has to be done, it has to be done on some casual emergency. We do not know at all that it will be required to be done next year or the year after; but we all know that so:ong as our gov OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-AEJNLlsDAY, FEBRUARY 12. ' made, would disappear. For the trouble is, not what shall be the rates of printing, nor how the work shall i be done; but who shall do the work. This has been t the whole trouble-the cause ofall the embarrassment f with the Legislature and the people. And Dow, if the people determine who shall do this work, it is my be lief that all this difficulty would vanish at once, and , that all parties would concur in forming such a tariffof printing as would be equitable and just. In reply to the argument of the gentleman from Au glaize, [Mr. SAWYER,1 I have merely to say, that one of the effects of the contract system, would be to con fine the public printing to the printers at the capital of L the State. But in reference to his argument, that, bes cause the contract system had worked well, in respect tothe public works, therefore, it could not fail in ap plication to the public printing-the gentleman should recollect that there was another element at work in thecoentract for the public printing, which had no con nection whatever with contracts upon the public works. It was a political feeling manifested in the anxiety which was felt upon the subject all over the tState. We all know something of the depth of this feeling as it exists between the leading newspapers at Columbus, that it is accompanied with a depth of bit terness which diffuses itself into every portion of the State. Such is the depth and bitterness of this feeling, sir, that, if the contract system were fixed upon the State here, as an arbitrary rule, you would not be able to get an honest bid for the prlntiog at Columibus. Printers would not stand there and bid honestly for the work; but the bitterness of party feeling would bring disturbing elements into operation. A good illustration of the effect of the contract sys tem, is to be derived from the proceedings at the Capi tal of the State of New York a few years since, when an effort was made by the nmembers of the democratic party in the Legislature of that State, to give the State printing to William C. Bryant, the talented and accom plished editor of the New York Evening Post. This was the wish of a majority of the democratic members. But the other portion of the democratic party concur red with the whigs, and determined to give the work to the lowest bidder. The consequence, of this was, that Edwin Croswell, who had been made wealthy by the elnjoyment of this patronage for a number of years, but who, by his infamous political course, had lost the coifideince of his political party, came forward and offered to do the printing of the State for absolutely nothing. This was a strong case; but it was a legitimate result of the operation of the contract system in connection with this political eletnenit, whi6h could not be separated t from the public printing. The effect as affirmed by 'the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LAwRENcE,) was to impair the dignity of labor; in other words, it ends in monopoly. A similar state of things would soon be found to exist at Columbus, which had been witnessedat the capital of the State of New York-the rival newspaperestablisiments taking advantage of each other, which would be in all respects disreputable and injurious. 5It. SAWYER would tell the Convention what would be the result of the propositions suggested by the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. L~EECH,) unless it should be guarded better than had yet learn indicated. If youl elect a State Pr inter by the people, you mullst go further, and make it obligatory upon the Legislature to fixs his bill of prices before his election. If this were not done before the election, whichever party might be in power, it would be a certain result, that the Legislature would provide good round prices for the printer, when he happened to belong to the same party and I believe that the p eople of the State, are disposed to have the government conducted as economically as possible-but I do not think, that much is to be staved by adopting this plain. If the printing is to be put ou to the lowest bidder, it is certain to go into the hands of the two great political parties at the seat of government, and which ever is in the ascendancy at the time, the printer entertaining th e p ol itical views of that party will be the lowest bidder. A nd wh y? You hav e n o secur ity that i f he b ids lower than th e work can be done for, there will not be a furthercompensation given him, and he will th e refor e be secure in bidding below what he really knows to be a fair price. I hold th at the L egislature s h ould satisfy themselves by f ixing a fair compensation f or thi s work, and throw the field openi to all the printers of the State. Let all have an opportunity to do the work, for the State, at fixed prices, and then we will get conpetent men-not men w ho have be en hovering about the capital for years, and managing the Legisla ture, n ot only in regard to the printing, but in reward to eveiy th ing else. Sir, I theink it is tire that we should have some othier p e rso n at Columbus to do th is w ork, w ithout inter erring with the members of the Leg isl atu re, who have met there for other and more important purposes. I think it is quite possi ble, M r. Pr esident, that in making these remaorks I mav subject myself to some criticism,; but independ entry of any such considerations, I speak fearlessly, because I regard it as my duty, -and because the people of both parties, throughout the State, desire that the matter should be left to therr. I hope the section will be stricken out. IV'r.HA MILTON.Ge nitlem-ien have argued this quest ion as if the Legislature werohe to hare the control of this printillng. In that h owever, they are entirely mistaken. The section says: "The printing of the laws. journals, bills and legislative documyents, and papers for each branch of the General Assemibly, together with the printingti required for the executive department, and other officers of the State, shall be let on contract to the lowest bidder, by such executive ofIcers, and ini such mode anild manner as may be prescribed by law." That last clause I take it, applies to the manner of letting the printing. From the remarks of the gertlemnen here, one might suppose that I was hostile to the printers. I think I scarcely need say to gentlemnen, that I am far from entertaining any such feeling, for I am almost a printer myself. The first day I ever tried my hand at it I set two thousand earos, and I think it is more th an likely that when I return home from here, I shall go to type setting, in my own office. I have no hostility to the craft. Mr TAYLOR. I have listened to this debate with peculiar interest. I differ from the gentleman from Utnlioni, [Mr. HAMILTON,] for reasons which I will state very briefly. It must be admitted, that the responses to that gentleman afford pretty good evidence that his argument has told upon the opponents of this section. It is certaini that the people are dissatisfied with the present plan of procuring thie public prinitinlg; but the question with me is, whether the remedy does not lie in a dilferenlt direction from that proposed in this section. It is obviouls that adl who are ill favor of the election of a state printer, will be constrainled to vote against this section; because, if this officer is to be elected, there is a manifest propriety in having a provisionl whlich shall prescribe the'character of the duties of that efficer, and how Ihis work shall be compensated. If the state printer were to be elected by the people, at regular periods, it seems to mne that most of the evils connuected with the subject, of Which complaint is now 587 5SS OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12. be selected by the people in the same way that our other public servants are selected. I have not yet heard any good reason for making the proposed discrimina tion. This public printer, judging from the excitement which has hitherto uniformly attended his appoi.nt ment, might be regarded by a stranger as one of the most important officers of the State; and if he is really an important officer still if he is an officer of the State, it is certainly right that the people should have a hand in electing him and fixing his compensation. I go for his election by the people for the sake of preserving the purity of that most important branch of the government; tne Legislature; because that body has ever seemed to be in danger of corruptionl whenev er it has been necessary for them to nmake this appointneriient. And now, this is a proposition to transfer this corrupting influence to the executive branch of the government, whose path of all others should be strictly guarded from even the temptation to corruption. Ind e ed, sir, we cannot too carefully guard all the leading departments of the government from every temptation to departfrom the strictest path of rectitude. Mr. HAWKINS. I intend to vote against this mo tion to strike out. There are one or two difficulties connected with the appointment of public print. ers, which it is certainly desirable to avoid. The one is, as to who shall be the printer; and the other, as to what shall be his compensation; and I think that the section as it now stands will obviate both of these difficulties The bid of the individual will designate both who shall be th e printer and what shall b te e prices p aid to h im. It has been said that by'the provisions of this seventh section, we are about to degrade labor; but there are a great many other things, and other descriptions of work required by the State besides printing. There is the article of paper and the article of fuel which are obtained upon contract; and I see no reason why the printing should be made an exception to this rule. Might it not be said, with as much reason, that we degrade labor, because we require our fuel to be furnished by the lowest bidder? I have chopped cord wood myself at one time in my life, and I am sure that I never could feel degraded either by that fact or by such a proposition as this. In my county it is a rule with the county auditor to let out the county printing to the lowest bidder, and the result has been uniformly satisfactory to the people. I believe, sir, that the facts and figures of the gentleman from Union, (Mr. HiAMILTON,) cannot be contradicted. Mr. HOLMES. I look uponI this motion as a very important one; for all who have had the misfortune to be placed in the Legislature at any time during the last ten or twelve years must acknowledge that a coinstanit fight, turmoil, and bickering has been kept up from year to year upon this sul)ject-upon the question, as my friend from Erie has very justly remarked: who shall do the public printing? I am sorry to be under the necessity of differing with my friend from Auglaize, (Mr. SAwYrF,) upon this subject. I am sure that there is no subject involving political and pecuniary considerations which can come before tne people of the state, in which they will take a deeper interest than in this; and if there is alny thing which the, people of Ohio could desire to see put finally to rest, it seems to me that it should be, to put a quietus, to this constant fighting and bickering and most expensive wrangling inl the Legislaiure about the oglieeel public printer, his duties and compensation. Such has been the extent of this feeling in the Legislature, that I recollect myself to have been chairman of a select committee to examine inlto what had been pro with the majority-they would fix a bill of prices that would make him rich. Or, if at any time, they should find out that the prices were too low for their party favorite, they might repeal the law, and give just such prices as he miight ask. Atmr. LEECH (interrupting, and Mr. SAWYER yielding.) I propo se that the compensation of the St at e Printer shall be f ixed by law, and that it shall be neither increased or dim inishedh during his term of office. This pr o vision will obviate the difficulty which the gentleman from Auglaize suggests. But in this s ection which the gentleman i s defending, it is pr ovid ed that c erta in executive officers shall mak e the contract for the public printing. Now, suppose th a t a majority of th ese executive officers should be either whig s o r d emocrats, and that they should be dispos ed to show favoritism to a party friend, and act corruptly, as the gentleman presumes the General Assembly woul d d o, mig ht n ot an abuse similar to that whic h he has pointed out, be perpetrated? Mlr. SAWYER. No, sir; and for this reason: the Constituti on is to provide th at they sh all let t he printing to the lowest responsible bidder. The consequenlce of this provisi on would be that advertisements for proposals would be inserted, and bids would be sent in by Mpedary, Scott, my fri end ove r the way, (SIr. Taylor,) and others, printers and publishers th rough out the State, and the printing would inevitably be giv en to the lowest responsible bidder. There c ould be no de cep tio n p r actised, and there could be no injustice done to that mechanical branch-(he would not disgrace printing, as some gentlemen had evinced a di sposition to do, b y calling it a profession). Nor w oul d he say, by his vote he re, that the printers of th e Stat e w e re incapable of making as safe a contract fo r s l e othemselves as wee other mechan ics. Nor did he believe that ther e was a pr i int er in the State who would b e v ery u h obliged to gentlemen for the reflecti ons which had been cast upon the, honesty and ficelity of what might beti in their bids. This was the aold demo cr atic tariff doctrin e, to Sbuy the cheapest, without inqu iri ng who was t he manufa ct urer, or where the article was made. Mr. MITCHELL. This section as it stands is certainly to my m ind not very perspicuous; and in order to secure its proper understanding, we ought to send some person along always to read it to the io people; for i fin d that its meaning depends very much upon the emphasis to be placed upon certain words. Now I will read the s ect i on in one way: "The printing of the la ws, jo urnals, bills, &c., shall be let on c ontract to t he lowest responsible bidder, by such executive officers and in such mode an d mann er as shall be prescribed by law." T o rea d it in this way, it wat ould seem to prescribe that the Legislature might point out w,hat executive officers should let out the contract. But I discover that by reading the section a little differently, pausing a little after the word "officers," it will bear a different construction, meaning the executive officers above named in the section, leaving the mode and manner to be prescribed by law. But there is nothing in the section to point out the manner in which it should be read in order to a just understanding. Upon the whole subject I am prepared to admit, that the reforms which we contemplate in this constitution will, in a good degree diminish the necessity for this kind of an officer.r I hope we shall not have 60 large a volume of laws nor so much legislative printing of any kind in future, as we have had for years past. I hope that our laws will be feweranld better digested. Still, we shall require such an officer as a public printer; and I can see no reason why he should not I OHIO CONVENTION EBATES-WEDNFSDAY, FEBRU,.RY 12. claimed all over the country as exorbitant charges for printing made by Col. Samual MAedary; and after instituting a correspondence upon the subject with other state printers and opening the communications which I received,: found that notwithstanding Medary's charges had been proclaimed to be an hundred per ceint too high, he was actually working fifty per cent lower than any other public printer in the States with whom I instituted the inquiry. From these considerations I have come to the conclusion that the people should say who should be the printer atnd that the Legislature should fix his compesnsation, by law. Wherever the contract system has been entered into, in connexion with the public printing, great dissatisfaction as to the character of the work and materials has been the result, and the State, like a good fat goose, has generally been well picked. I know that the commissioners of this county have endeavored to obtain the stationery and printing necessary for the various public offices of the county, uponi the contract principle-lowest bidder-and the result ot their experience and practice satisfied them that the contract system was a humbug, so far as economy and the best interests of the county were concerned; that the pr intimg has been badly done and upon most indifferent pap)er; and they have been compelled to abandon the system. Sir, let the motion prevail, let the state printer be elected by the people, your Legislature will fix by law, his compensation-and -the maneuvering and truckling of partizans will have one important prop, knocked from under the platform of their political squabbles. Mr. SMITH of Warren, by way of perfecting the section proposed to be stricken out, moved to amend by striking out the words "such executive officer," uand inserting the words " Auditor, Secretary and Treasurer of State." Mr. REEMELIN. I hope the amendment of the gentleman from Warren will not prevail, for I appre. heud that it would take the subject too much out of the hands of the Legislature. As the section now stands, it preserves the independent control of the General Assembly over this subject, while it compels them to prescribe that some of the executive officers shall make the contract. The section was drafted very carefully by my own hand. An d on e r eason why I shall vote (very reluctantly) against the motion ofthegenitleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LeECaH,) is this: I have desired for several years to separate the different jobs Lf State Printing; for instance, to make differe nt contracts for t he Legisiative Printing, and the Executive Prin ting, and the printing for the Supreme Co ur t in Bank. I do not wish to see one printer, like AaroM's rod, swallow up a the whole of these jobs. Agai n, 1 d o not desire that e vt ery year, when we shall meet in Convention at Columbus, w e shall be c ompel - led to decide who shall be our political organ-especially I do not wish to be compelled to decide that our political organ shall be alw, ys the State Priniter. Our family contests are bitter enough without that, and therefore I must respectfully decline the ju)b for onie, to decide Printing questioins in our Demtocratic State Conventions. That question woulld control all others, and instead of a fight on principles, we should have El mere contest for dollars and ents and poilitical power. I do not think the contract system, in conlnexion with the public printirg, has been yet fairly t~estedi; and of I am nlot mristakenl thsere exists, at this moment, an unlderstandinlg between the proprietors of the Uni;on and the Intelligencer, at Washington city, by which it is determined that the contract systemn which has heen adopted by Conlgres~s shall not have afair chanice. The contract system has work e d we ll in its applicat on to every thing else connected with the public service; and I am in hopes yet of seeing io applied to the Post Office department. Make it a constitutional provision, subject to be modified by legislative discretion, and it will have a f ai r trial. Then it will be successful! Mr. SMITH of Warren. Upon a more careful examination, I find that the General Assembly are todesignate the officers who are to let out this printing, and, therefore, I will ask leave to withdraw my amendnent. The amendment was accordingly withdrawn. The question then recurring upon the motion to strike out, and the yeas and nays being demanded, or. dered and resulted-yeas 36, nlays 61, as follows: YE.,s-Messrs. Blair, Case of Lickiing. Chabnev, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hlolmes, Holt, Hootman, tlumphreville, Johnson. Jones, Lawrence, ]Jarwill, Leech, Leadhetter, Lidey, ManoU, Mitchell, lclCormicii, Norris, Orton, Quigley, Ranniey, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stickniey, Stidger, Swift, Taylor, T'lhompsoni of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Wilson and P'resident-36. NAYs —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Baynet of Mlonitgomery, Barnlett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blicliensderfcr, Brownii of :',theins, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Collings, Cook, CPurry,.Cutler,Ew%vart, e lorenice,Gillett,Graha-m,Green of R[oss, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan. Hawkins, Hendcrso,,,lfitchcock of Cuyahoga,Hitchcock of Geau~a, Horton,!tauit, Hunter, Kiing, Kirkwood, Larth, Lou,loni, 3.ason, Morehead, Morr-is, MeCloud, Nash, Otis, Patterson, lecl, Perkilns, Reemelin, Piddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland1, -mith of Warren, Smnitlh of Wyandot, Stanibery, Stanton, Stebbi is, ,Stilwell, Struble, Swan, Townshend, Vance of Buitler, WN'arren, Woodbury and Worthington-61. So the notion to strike out was rejected. Mr. PATTERSON moved to further am-iend the report by adding at the end of section twentv-two, the following: "The officer against -whomn the General Assenmbly may be about to proceed, shall receive notice bv a copy of the causes alleged for his remiioval, at least ten days before the day on which either branch of the General Assemnbly shall act thereon." Which was disagreed to. EX POST FACTO LAWS. Mr. STANTON nmoved to further amiend the report in section thirty-three, by strikinii out the wordi "retroactive," and inserting in lieu thereof the words "ex post facto." Mr. MASON demanded the yeas and nays upon this mnotion, which were ordered. Mr. S. said. Although this subject had been heretofore fully discussed, yet it wvould be recollected that the vote upon it hlad been taken when there was not a full house. It was for that reason that he had rehewed the motion at tliis time. lie desired nothiing but the vote, and demanded the yeas arid nays. Mr. NASHI said. The adoption of these words -would amount really to nothing at all, for the prI)ohibition was just a3 broad iii the Constitution of the United States. Upon the most deliberate and mature discussion of this subject, the Con'vention had heretofore voted downl this chanii,e by a decided mljority. But it seemed that this, like miany other qu( stio,as i n thiis body, could never be put to sleep. lie hoped, therefore, that inow a decided vote would be given. The yeas and nays were now taken upon Mir. STANTON'S amliendliient, and resulted yeas 49 inays 49, as follows: YEAs-tc sessrs: Andrews, Barbee, Parnetof Monlgomnery, Barnett of Preble. Bates, Bennett, BlickcnsderIer, Brownl of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of fioclkinrg, Case of Licking, { hambers, Collings, Co)ok, Cutler, Ewart, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hard, Harlan, H-litchcock of Cuyahoga. Hitch - cock cia Geauga, Holt, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Kirkwood, Larsh, Mason, Mof rehelad, MVorrisfll, Wed, Otis, Peck, Pe-. kins Riddle, Scott of Ilarrison, Smith of Highland, -Smnith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swift, Tavlor. Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Woodbury and Worthington-49 RISR OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12. head, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Scott of Hlarrison, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stilwell, Swift anld Van(-e of Cham, paigr —: 8. NAYs —Messrs. Blair, Cahill. Case of LTicking, Chaney, Cook, Farr, Forbes, Green of Ross, Gregg, Croesbeck, Harci Hawkins,Heinderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootm-iian,Htimphreville, Hunit, Hu ter, Jones, King, Kirkwoo,i, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudoni, Mason, M~itchell, McCornmick, Nash, Noriis, Ortoni,Patterson, Perkins, Qui-,ley, Raniney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, SSmith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidg,er. Struble, Swaan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompso n of Starli, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury. Worthiniton and President-61. So the amendment was rejected. NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Curry,Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Greesbeck, Hasmilton, Hawkins, Hender son, Holmes, Hootman, Hum)hreville, Hunt, Jones, King, Lawrence, L,arwvi., Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormicli, Nash, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Seliers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickne,', Stidger, ntruble. Swan, Thompson ot Starli, Townshend, Warren and Wilson-49. So the amendment was rejected. Mr. GRAY moved to further amend the report by striking out all of section thirty-five, before the word "provided," asid inserting- in lieu thereof the follow ing' "SEC. 5. Nlo ewv countyi shall he erected by the General Assembly centaiing,l.ss t ha n four hundred square miles of territory, nor shall any county be reduced below that amount, ior shall the cuunty seat of any counity be changed, until the law authorizing such change sha' have been approved of by the majority of tie v oters of said county-ior shall any township be incorporated into any new county, or be trans ferr-ed from one cun,ty to another, until a majority of the votes of such township shall have been cast in favor of said change." 'ir. LAWRENCE demanded a division of th(e ques tion. The question then being first on striking out, Mr. PERKINS said. This section was very unsat isfactory to him. It amounted to a declaration that rao new county should ever be erected in the State, and that no chliange should ever be made in the counity lines. In fact, it seemed only to have respect to a chiange of county lines, and this was rendered im practicable by its ter,s. NoHv, it seemed to him, that if the people of any township should ever desire to be transferired froml one county to another, the Legislature should have the power to authorize them to express their will, and upon that expression, t o authorize the transfer to be made accordingly. If the Legislature should approve of such a thing, and the people of such a town liship should vote for it, it seemed to him that there could be no objection against permittil.g it to be ldonbe. The quecston tbeing now taken, the Convention refus(d to strilke out. So the aime,ndment was lost. VOrTING VIVA VOCE. Mr. CHAMABERS moved to further amend the reportb by striki g out of section thirty, the followingn words, "and in all such elections the vote shall be fLakeni v-,iva vo,)e." MMr. CMHAN'b,IElRS demheslnded the yeas and nays upon tlis notion, which avwee ordered. MNr. C. woeld merely say, that the State of Ohio had uniform'l1y, froi the origin of the governrment, adhered to the prin1ciple of the ballot vote; and he thought it too late neo,v to adopt the plan of voting viva voce. He thougot the ballot vote was preferable upon all questiois-that niore independent results would be obtained; especially ii this case of voting for United States Senator; fo or they would nlot be compelled to vote under the party lash so strictly as though they were re quired to vote vita voce. AMr. LARWI:LL hoped these words would not be s,tricken olu.'It was a satisfacltion to the people to know the acts of thei, servants, and especially would it bea satisfaction to theln to know whether upon this iiportant election, they voted in accordance with tlhe will of tlheir cornstit uents. The yeas rond nays havitig been demanded and order - ed utpon, fH. B,SEnS' a ienrdmnent, being now taken, the result was —yeas 38, nays 61, as follows: YE:.ts-P,'essrs. AnTrews, Barbee,'Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Prebie, Bates, Benneit, Blickensderfer, Browil of Athens, Brown o f Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Coeltipas, *usry, Cutler, Evart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greeve of Defiance, Hailan, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hortoes, Johnson, Larsh, Manon, More DUELLING. MMr. LIDEY moved to further amensdl the Report, by strikin g o ut sec tio n 31. On which motion. Mr. ANDREWS demanded the yeas and nays, wh iclc were o r de red, a nd resllted —ye as 29, nays 69, as fol lows: YE.Ss-e-Messrs. BrownL Car o a e of Carr oll, Cas e of -ocking, ('tse of' Licking,Gray, Greene o f De fiance, Green of Ross,nd tb roesbeck Harlani, Hender son, Holmes, Hootman, Kirkwood, I,awrenceLee, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Ma ion,,:litchell, McColnick, Nash, Perkins, Ranhiey, Scott of Auglaize, Smith (t' Warren, Stilwell, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Stark and President- "9. NaYs-Messrs. Andrews, Bar,,et of Montgomnery, Bannert of Prehle, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Bliclielisderfer, B,rown v4 Atlhens,Cahill,Chamber ~,Chaney,Co lliligs,Cook,C utirrv,C titler, Ewart, Farr, Florenlce, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gregg, Haf. ilton, Hard, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga. ttitchcock cf Geauga, Holt, Horton, Humphreville, Hunit, Hunter, J,ohnson, Jones. King, Larsh, Larwll, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, Mlforris, McCloud, Norris, Orton. Otis, lPeck, Quig'ley, Roomolin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Sirmith el' Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbe,'y, Stantor, Steblbis, Stickney, Struble, Swatn, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, T'owvishenrd, Vance of Butler, Vance of Champaign, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthington-69. So the amendment was rejected. Mr. RIDDLE moved to further amend the Report by adding to the end of section 31, the following: "and shaI1ll bs punished otherwise in such manner, as thIe General Assembly, may prescribe by law." Mr. COLLINGS had no mnanner of objection to the principle involved iu this ainenddnenit, but he dii not. desire, and, as far as his vote was concerned, he wouldi not agree, to put into this Constitution a -riiniipl code. Mr. MANON believed he should vote i i) favor of this ame ndment, in the hope that the committee woultd get so much in this report, that at last, they would tbe ilnduiced to strike out the whoie of it. The question was now taken upon Mr. RADDLF's amendment, and it was rejected. Mr. MIASON moved further to amencd the report in the thirty-third selti.)n, by insertin,g after thie worked "provided however," these words, "that iottiing b-ereim contained, shall prevent the enactm-ient of curative laws and," so that it will read: "The General Assembly shall have no power to pass retroactive laws or laws impairinig the obligation of conitracts, provi,dled however, that nothing herein contained shall prevent the enactment of curative laws and that aets of incorporation or corporate franchises, pMivileges or iHlr-nutlities, whether granted by ainy general or sleci:l taw~ shall never be deemed contracts or irrepealable,." Mr. M. said he did not wish to take up t'Ji tire D f the (,convention at all, bec;ause the,, subject mlaittter of this ametndment has already been frequently before the body. He had no objection to the word "retro-aictivw." if the convention could see proper to exemnpt fromn its operation, the power to pass curative laws —in (olher words, mere healing statuites, for the curing of diefects in the acts of ministerial officers, in takin,g the ackuo w. 590 CURATIVE LAWS. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —WEDNESDAY, FEBRUA}lY 12 ledgmrent of deeds, and other instruments of writing. would have been "dug up," and suits instituted; and These curative laws, had prevailed throughout the from the rule then held by the court, injustice would Union, as far as his informiatiou had extendeo.d,and they have been done to many, and a Court of Equity h,d received a judicial interpretation by the courts of made an instrument of iniquity. I shall vote for the Pennsylvania and Ohio, to the effect that they were amendment of the gentleman from Clark, (Mr. MAvi)lid and constitutional. But now, the insertion of SON,) but would have preferred to lave had the word this word "retro-active," without any qualification,'-retroactive" struck out and ex postfacto inserted. would make these laws unconstitutional in this State. Mr. MORRIS was no lawyer, but lie should vote From the large vote which had been given but a mo- for this amendment. It was a requisition of law that moent since in favor of striking outthis word, (there be- in the acknowledgment of deeds for the transfer of iig a majority of but one against it,) he rather flattered real estate, the wife should b examined separate and himself, that the house would be willing to insert his apart from the husband: and the contents of the deed amendment. He would not go again into this argu- thus fully made known to her; and if the magistrate mernt, but content himself with simply calling for the neglected to state this fact il the acknowledgment, the yeas and naDs. title attempted to b( passed to the purchaser would be Mr. SAWYER desired the gentleman to explain jeopardized. Believing that there would be occasion what was to be understood by curative laws in his herealter for legislation to cure such defects as this, in amendment. the acts of our ministerial officers; for this reason he Mr. MASON. Curative laws had received their should support the amendment. names from our judicial decisions; their object being to Mr. RANNEY. If there was any merit in persecure defects in the acts of ministerial officers. For ex- verance, gentlemen who had pressed this question were ample, the law requiring a magistrate to fix his seal to certainly entitled to that credit. For the three last an acknowledgment of a deed, might be neglected in times that this question had been under consideration, this particular-and by this neglect, the purchaser it had been argued only by those who were opposed to might be in danger of losing his estate. In such a case, the section; and gentlemen had been making such acurative act of the Legislature comes in, and provides handsome headway that they were now by the last thait all such conveyances shall be good and binding, vote encouraged with the hope of carrying their according to the intention of the parties, any law to amendment. the contrary, notwithstanding. But there were always two sides to every question, A VtIecE. "That is the law nowv." (continued Mr. R.) and until we have looked at both Mir. MASON was aware of that —but he was only sides we can be but illy prepared to decide upon it. offering an illustration. HehopedthehonorableChair- We have been often lectured upon the value of cutmat of the committee of the Legislative department, rative laws, but no definition has been attermpted. And \vonld not see any cause now to oppose this amend- now I say that the power to passcurative laws will exnlelt. There had always been occasion for this tend to almost everything which wedesire to prohibit tkind oflegislation heretofore, and there would be found by the use of the word "retroactive;" and if gentleoccasion for its exercise in the future. nien succeed in putting in the power to pass curative Mr. STANBERY next obtained the floor,and spoke laws, I will then go for striking out the whole. For twenty minutes, in favor of the amendment. there is nothinig of value involved in this question but Mr. BROWN of Carroll, further to illustrate the what is connected with the proposition to strike out necessity of the exercise of the power to pass curative he word'Iretroactive." laws, rehearsed the case of a Justice of the Peace, who! e divide the powers of government into three dewas elected in his own neighborhood, and gave a de- pa'tments-legislative, executive and judicial. We fective bond without knowing it. And, supposing he provide that the legislative department shall have the was proceeding according to law, he went on to take power to prescribe the rules of civil action. And in the acknowledgment of deeds, marry people, and petr- order to prescribe these rules upon just principles, it is form aei thie duties incident to his office. But it hap- indispensably necessary that the exercise of this powpened afterwards that a tman who was badly disposed er should only look al-head, that it should be only protowards him, found out that the penalty of his bond spective in its operation, for the idea of making a rule was only four hundred dollars, whilst thIe statute re- to punish the action of men, or to affect their rights quires that the penalty of a magistrate's bond shall be and interests, already past and accrued, would be as fr,omi five hundred to twenty hundred dollars. But the bad as the practice of the Reman despot, when he Legislature happening lo be in session at the time, the wrote his laws in small characters, and stuck themn up so J ustice of the Peace was only subjected to the incon- high that the people could not read them. venience of suspending operations for afew weeks, un- But it is the business of thie judicial department of til he could get a little curative law passed legalizing the government to apply these rules of civil action to all his acts. Now but for this interposition of a cura- individual cases, and to work out justice i all its diftive law, the title supposed to have been conveyed by ferent forms under the law. If there was no remedy the deeds, the acknowledgment of which he had taken, for all these evils so glowingly depicted by the gentlecou'd have been wholly set aside, and the marriages man, but by an application to the Legislature there which he had solemnized, would have been nugatory would be some force in their argumientt. But such is in law. not the fact. This amendment proposes to take away Whilst the decision of the Supreme Court held the from the appropriate tribunal for the administration of curative law of 1835, null and void; and, when the case justice between roan and man, the duty which belongs of Good vs, Zercher, was held to be the law, I exam- peculiarly to that tribunal, and devolve it upon the iced the acknowledg ment of several deeds on the e- Legislature. The constitution of the courts is such cord of the county where I live, and found many of that they can easily investigate facts and apply the prothem deceptive, when I, of my own knowledge, knew per remedy. Still they propose to take away from them the sales and transfers made, and intended to be made, the remedy for cases requiring such investigations, and by said deeds, to have been in good faith, and for a val- confer it upon the legislative department of the gov'sable consideration. ernment, making the General Assembly to sit in judg And I may further remark, that about the time, ment upon events which have long since gone past, infortunately we had a revolution in the opinion of the stead of attending to their appropriate functions of proSupreme Coart; there were several cases in train} and [ scribing rules of action for the future. 591 592 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEE:NESDAY, FEBRUARY 12. discussed during the summer session of this body, in Columbus. I then expressed my views. Entertain ing doubts as to the propriety of leaving the unlim ited power of passing retroactive laws in the General Assembly, I then so argued. I said then that there was a class of curative laws highly beneficial to the r i ghts o f persons and the good order of com muni ty, but the power ought to be defined; in order t o prevent abuses. Since t hen I ha ve re flecte d mu ch upon the subject, and have c ompared op inions wit h gentlemen on this floor, in whose judgment I have more confi dence than in my own. I innd some of t hem in the same difficu lty with myself. But the proposition of the gentleman from Clark, [Mr. MAsoN,]e if I rightly comprehend it, removes. to some extent, the difficulty. I repeat, sir, I am not willing to,give to the General Assembly the undefined power to pass retroactive laws; but there is a class of curative statutes highlybeneficial, and which can work wrong to no one, but which are deAmanded by every principle of justice, g oingh no t further than a ffirming the rights of partis h oldin g in good faith under a defectively executed power of a public officer in a matter of form and the like, wher e there is no other r emh edy, and where, in the lang-uage of Kent, it is clearly just and reasonable, and conducive to the general welfare. But, sir, I would avoid special legislationf fo r hard cases, as dangerous in principle, and te nding to those corrupt pr actices alluded to by the gentleman from Traumbull, [Mr. RAx\Nr,Ye.]d I can give a notable inst ance o f the application of such a law as that of 1835, to which refere nce has been made. A man died in the cou nty o f Ross, haviin g devised t o his daughter some six or eight hun dred acres of land. She being married, united with her husband in convey ing these lands to sundry purchasers, for a full va luable c onsideration. Her first husband died, and she married again-separated fromt heg second husband, and returned to Ohio after an absence of some years in the State of oIsar n d Seo llinois. In the mean time, it had been discover ed that in eve ry instance in which she had executed deeds the ce rtificate of the Justice of the Peac e wa s found to be defective, iof not sttg iating tha t the cone tents of the deed had been made known to her." The case of Good v. ZerciIr, decidedo in 1843, ihad declared the law of 1835, which elae dec lared deeds so defectively cert ified by the Justice, to be unconstitutional, and suits wer e instituted against the holders of these lands. Happily, a change of the cour t reversed the decisi on i n Good v. Zercher, and sustained the law. No right was affected by this law. The contract, as originally made, was not impaired or infringed at all. But it was the mere curing of a deficiency in the act of a ministerial officer, evidencing the performance of a certain duty on his part-a mere informality of the certificate of the officer. And this is all that the amendment of the gentleman front Clark proposes. The gentleman from Trumbull tally about flli-ng a bill in chancery. In this instance there,were somer. six or seven different purchasers to which this woman gave deeds in the first place, and all these were now roepresented by successors and heirs at law, nd, according to the gentleman from Trumbull, a bill would have to be Siled in every instance. I could go into the county of Ross and findd a hundX~red cases where an action could be mainltainled for somne such defect in passing titles, if it were not for the existing curative law to which I have referred. Still, this is a power which the gentleman from Trumbull affirms should not be exercised by the Legislature, but he would compel the parties to go But again, I am opposed to the amendment, because it involves a n unjust principle. For instead of inves tigating matters of fact in open court-bringing the parties together in their own neighborhood, where each can have a full and fair o pportunity of tmanife st ing the truth-the effect of the gentleman's famend ment is to transfer the settlement of their rights to ano ther forum, which acts ex parte, where deception and m isrep re sentation may supply the place of evi dece. Now, I say, give to the p arties an open court -an ope n fieldd a fair fight before an appropriate tribunal, for the as wer tainet f the facts, and the applica ti on of a remedy appropria te to the justice of the case, in accordance with general laws. Mr. MASON. Will the gentleman allow me to pro pose a modification to my amendment, in o rder t hat le may have the benefit of it? Mr. RANNEY. Certainlv. Mr. MASON asked and obtained leave to modify, his amendment, by proposing to insert these words: ,That nothing herein contained shall prevent the en actment of curative laws, affecting only the form of instruments, and carrying into effect the manifest in tentiora of parties, and." Mr. HOLT. I have voted to strike out the word retro-active, every time the question has been up, without offering any argument upon it. I will not rehearse the arguments of other gentlemen, which are not without weight with me; but I would giv- this power to the Legislature for the- purpose of quieting and composing disputed titles arising out of the infer. mnaities of execution of wills and deeds. Suppose ill the execution of a will, the law re quires that it shall be signed by three witnesses. Well, a man goes on to make his will, and calls ill his witnesses, and it is often the case that two witnesses .nay sign at one time and go about their business, and the third witness comes in and signs upon the same day, but not in the presence of the other two or of the testator. Well, I suppose that in after time, some twenty years, perhaps, a question of title arises from the fact that these witnesses did not all sign in the presence of each other and of the testator, and the case coines into court; and the court decide that the title is not valid for this cause. Now what is to be done? There is no remedy except by a bill of chancery, upon the principle advocated by the gentleman from Trumbull. But in this time estates have been partitioned out into the hands of many owners and minor heirs, amounting to hundreds, perhaps, and there must be a bill of chancery filed in the case of every individual owner. And there would be no other way of obtaining a good title according to the laws of any State in the Union. Now it is for the purpose of quieting a title in such a case, that I would confer upon the Legislature thepoaer to pass such a law that all wills created in this manner shall be good in law. With regard to the monstrous corruptions in the Legislature, induced by-wine and oysters, according to the suggestion of the gentleman from Trumbull, I do not suppose that such a thing was ever done in the whole history of our Legislature, nor do I suppose that our Legislature ever has been or ever will be capable of such an imposition. Nor do I suppose the Legislature ever took up a particular case to examine and declare upon the facts of that case alone. I never heard of such a thing. But they inquire into the matter, and make a curative declaration by a general law. I admit that the exercise of this power is an exception to the general scope of legislation, but sometimes fromn the necessity of the case, the public inconvenience, and the temnptations to fraud would be very great if this powder did riot rest in the Legislature. Mlr. GREEN, of Ross. This subject was very fully I f tI s8 e e e e e f n II e e00 e OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. into court to protect themselves from fraud. But' where the interest of the wife has been defectively transferred, without a curative statute, you can have no remedy, as the Supreme Court of Ohio has expressly decided. Mr.by a curativNNEY. The Legislaw, ture has prescribed, by a curative law, that you can go into court. Mr. GREEN. Aye. But there is a curative star Mr. RANNEY. The Legislature has prescribed,znoftakcut,othsaesbetwhc,o Mr. BARBEE pr ese nted a petition from Joh n Old ham a n d forty other citizens of Miami county, on the same subject, which, on motion, was laid on t he ta ble. Mr. THOMPSON of Stark, presented a petition from J. M. Petit and one hundred and five o the r citi - zens of Stark county, on the same subject, which, on motion, was lai d on the table. Mr. EWART submitted the foll owing, which wa s agreed to: Resolved, That a select committee of five be appoint - ed to report to the-Convention a s chedule or article pro viding for the expiration of the terms of all officers and the termination of Courts of Justice, under the existing Constitution and the transfer of business to those elected and organized under the new Constitu - tion. Mr. BARBEE submitted the following: Resolved, That fr om and after t hi s day,this Con vention shall meet at 9 o'clock, A. M., and at 3 o'clock P. M., of e ach day. Mr. SAWYER moved to lay the re solutio n on the table. On which motion, Mr. EWART demanded the yeas an d na ys, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 40, nays 5, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blair, Brown of Athens, Case of Hocking, Chaney, C utler, Ewing, Farr Florence, Forbes, G illett, H ard, H arlan, Hawkins, HengersHon, Hitchcoc k of Cuy ah oga, Hitchc ock of Geauga, Holt, flootman,Humphreville, King, Morehea d, Morris, M cClou d, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Ralney, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Warren, Smi th o f Wyan dot, S tanton,, Stebbins, Stilwell, Struble, Warren, Wilson and President-40. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Ben nett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cools, Curry, Ewart, Graham,Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Holmes, Hootman, Hunt, Johnson, Jones. Ki rkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, L,arwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, l~oudon, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, McCmick, Nortis, Orton, Otis, RQuigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Sell er s, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Sticlknev, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Tow nshedd, Van ce o f Butler, Wr illiams, Woodbury and Worthingtod n-55. So the motion to lay on the table was rejected. The question then being on the adoption of the resolution. Mr. LARSH moved to amend the resolution by striking out the word "three" and inserting in lieu thereof the words "two and a half." On which motion, Mr. STILWELL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 54, nays 42~ as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blair, Brown of Athens, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Chaney, Cook,Cutler, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray,Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hortor. Hum-phreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Larsh, Lidey, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbis,,Stilwell, Tbompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Wilson and President-15. NAYs —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Ben. nett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of h,ick. ing, Collings, Curry, EFwart, Greene of Defiance, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman. Jones, King, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Loudon, Aa. non, Mason, Orton, Otis, Riddle Scott of Harrisonl. mibn of Highland. iStanbery, St~dgt r, Struble, Swvan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Warren, Williams, ~,Voodbury and] Worthington —42. So the amendment was adopted. The question then being on the adoption of the bee solution, as amnended. Mr. BATES demanded the yeas and nays, wvX[eh were ordered, and resulted —yeas 57, nays 39, as follows: ute. Mr. RANNEY. But its action was only prospective. Mr. GREEN. And what was the necessity for that? Mr. RANNEY. To invest the courts -wth jurisdiction. Mr. GREEN. But I am contending upon the broad ground, that the wvoman's title could only pass by operation of law, and that, unless the forms were all complete, the title could not pass, without a curative statute. But the gentleman says as the law exists, it is only prospective. Well, if it is right, provident, and proper, to pass such an act, with a prospective operation, would it not be equally right, provident and proper, to pass such a law which should operate retrospectively, upon the same description of cases? The Supreme Court have decided, that you cannot supply by parole evidence what does not appear upon the certificate of the Justice of the Peace. Mr. STANTON. I regret exceedingly, that the gen tleman from Clark, (Mr. MASON,) ha s seen proper to modify his amendment as he has. For, according to my judgment, it is now of very little consequence. It proposes now, that curative laws shall apply simply to those cases where there is a defect of title on account of some informality in the papers. But there are thousands of cases of defective titles, requiring the intervention of curative laws, mostly superior in their magnitude of interest and importance to any of these; and as a good example of these cases, I might refer again to the illegal Connecticut marriage cases. I hope, therefore, that, upon further reflection upon the subject, the gentleman will Rome up here prepared to adhere to his amendment, as it was originally offered. It being too late now to detain the body with any expression of my own views upon this subject, I move that the Convention adjourn. This motion was agreed to: and, accordingly, the Convention adjourned. ONE HUNDRED AND FOUR'TEENTH DAY. T.iuRSDAY, February 13, 1851,( 8y2 O'CLOCK, A.. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Mr. MANON moved a call of the Convention, which was ordered, and Messrs. Archbold, Brown of Athens, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Holmnes, Hunter, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Mason, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Perkins, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Smith of Warren, Stanbery Stidger, Swift, Taylor, Vance of Champaign, and Way, were found assent. On motion of Mr. B.ENNETT, all further proceedings under the call were dispensed with. Mr. MORRIS presented a petition from Mary Layman and forty-two other females from Clinton county praying that a clause be inserted in the new Constitution, prohibiting the Legislature from passing any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors. Referr ed t olin the select commi ttee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. 593 594 OHIIO CONJVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. Mr. MITCHELL. As to that particular answer, I will not take it upon myself to say what the Report was. I did not see it. Mr. CASE. I will now state that the question and answer are precisely the same in the original manu script of the Reporter. What the answer was, in point of fact, I do not now recollect. I now come to th-e subject of the Dartmouth Col lege question. The report, as published, is as follows: Mr. MITCHELL. Does the gentleman say that the decision in the Dartmouth College case, and the case of the Planter's Bank of Mississippi, in 6th How ard, ar"'good authority? Mr. CASE. I should not hesitate to quote them in any court. Mr. MITCHELL. You regard it as good authority then? Mr. CASE. Undoubted legal a ut hority. Mr. CASE. Is t his right or is it wrong? Have ther e been any erasions or alteration s here? Mr. MITCHELL. I have stated that the gentleman said ill answer to my question. Do you re gar d the Dartmou th Co l lege cas e as good authority? Uudoubt edly I do. Mr. CASE. Will the gentleman say that my re ply is Dot published as delivered in this body? Mr. MITCHELL. I do not know. IT undertake to say that that w th gthe way I understoo d him here at my seat and so wrote it d own. The next point is in regard to the questi on o f pro spective repeal. The rep.)rt reads: Mr. MITCHELL. * X Are you in favor of pro spective repeal? Mr. CASE. I tell you I am; 1 have voted for it as you know, and always advocated here, and I am going to bring you up to that doctrine of the party, and I do not intend to let you dodge it. Mr. CASE. Is not that the way your question was reported by the Reporter? rFhe gentleman does not answer. I assert that it is nothing more and nothing less; and I ask the gentleman if he dares to deny it? So far as the question is concerned, it is precisely as it was taken down by the Reporter, and published in the debates, and as to any questions or answer.s by others in the mnaniuscript report, there has neither been change, alteration or erasure by myself or any body else. I had my reasons for abstaining. I knew the men I was dealing with, and was aware that charges would be made, if even the slightest ground should be given for them; and for that reason I was careful Dot even to dot an i, nor cross a t, in their questions or answers. Not only so, but I was at Columbus, and read the proof and compared it with the original, and again I say that neither erasure nor alteration was mnade, either here or there, so far as respects the questions and answers of others. I cannot therefore see upon what the gentle. man bases his question of privilege with me. If he was not reported correctly it is a matter between him and the Reporter. The gentleman fromii Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELINrl,) also had a question of privilege, I understand, in relation to this matter. Mr. RP,EMELIN. The point which I made was this. The gentleman had his speech, as written out by tile Reporter, in his hands for the purpose of correction, anid corrected it. That mlakes his] guilty of any suppressionls that took place ill the report.. If he deniees that he corrected h is speech, i w ill prove it. He had it in his hands to make it correct. He knew lhat the words of the gentleman from Know, (Mr. MITCHELL,) were not reported as they were delivered. Why did he not make the correction? I say he is guilty of all the suppressions that were mace; such as that of a YE:As-M ssrs. Anidrews, Bsrlbee, Benn,,ett, Blair, Blickenisder ler, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Lieking, Ctlaibers, Col lIigs, Cook, Curry, Cautler, Ewari, Ewii1, Graiiai-, Greene of Defiance, G oest,eck, Hani,toni, Hawvkinis, HIoltes, Hootimjarw, Hiixjpllpheviile, Hli it, Huniiter, Joliison, Jonies, 1.arsit, Lawrence, I,.arwill, Leech, Ladbetier, L:dey, i~,anon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCiormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, QO rlely, Reerxielil), Riddlie. Sel'lers, Smiiith of Hig-h)land, Snithl (t' Wa-. ren, Stantery Sti(iaer, Sivan, Thomipson of Siilly Towiinselid, Vance of Bitlar, NA fiiams, Woodi'ury asI Wortiltingon-5,. NAYS-Messrs. Barnet ot' M,)nt7omery, Bartnelt of Prele, Bates, Brown of Athens, C-(se or Hoceling, Cihane, Ferr, F,o reiice Forbes, Gillett, GI-ay, G eve, Har,-, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of (,Cuyaho!-a, H~tchccck (,f G,altga, Holt, Horton Kinyg, Loudon, Morris, AMl-Cloud, Pe-k, Perkills, Ramicy, Saw ye-, Sctt of H:riso, Siottof Auilaize, S,nittI of W5yatido', Stanitol, Stel)iis, Stilvell, Strub!e, Toylor, Titonpson of Stark ~Warren, Wilson and Presidenit-39. So the resolution was adopted. Mr. MITCHELL submitted the following, which was agreed to: Resolved, That all standing committees to whont articles may have been referred, be instructed to report the same back to the Convention onl or before Monday the24th inst., exceptiing the committee cn "Revision." Mr. CASE of Licking, rose to a question of privi lege. He said that during his absence, the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) had, as he had been in formed, raised a question of privilege in a matter re garding himself. He would be glad if that gentle man would state the points upon which he raised his question. He would give way to him for that pur pose, and when he had made'his statement, he would endeavor to answer him. He had heard two or three versions of the matter, and was anxious to get at the true one, before he proceeded to reply. Mr. MITCHELL said the remarks hlie had made upon that occasion had been reported, and would be published, and then the gentleman could see them if he should choose. He was glad however that the gentlemran from Licking, (Mr. CAsE,) had called up the subject, as it would afford him, (Mr. CAsE,) an opportunity to tell what he knows, in relation to the chaiges that were made in the report of his, (Mr. MITC sEL'S) remarks, as they occurred in the report of his, (Mr.l CA,sE's) speech. In. the first place, in rmy answer to his question, "do you consider a franchise as property?" I am reported as liaviug said "Ah!" Mly answer was, "No sir, I do not, in the sense in which the term property a is used in the Constitution." Again, in the answer he made to a question which I put to him, whether he considered the Dartmouth College case, a reliable and undoubted legal authority; his real answer was, "Uidoubtedly I do." Again I asked, "Do you believe in the right of repeal unconditionally?" In the report, the word "unconditionally" is struck out of the question,-entirely changing its force. And now I ask the gentleman aif he knows anything about these changes? An answer o to this is all I require. I bring no charge against him, but it is proper that it should be known where these alterations originated. Mr. CASE. The gentleman makes three points, to each of which I will endeavor to respond, antid to all of which I am prepared to answer distinctly and emphatically. The first point which he complains of, is upon this passage. Mr. CASE. Is not a franchise property? M~r. MITCHELL. All! Mr. CASE. Does the gentlemlan say that he did not answer in the way he is reported? Mr. MITCHELL. I do not knowv. Mr. CASE. The gentleman speaks of erasures and X alterations. f ask, has there been any erasure or as- d teration in the Reporter's manuscript in this question and answer? OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURS'.DAY, FEBRUARY 13. 595 part of certain remarks made by me. He did not in- no direct reference to me; but I ask the gentleman here sert the whole speech, and is therefore guilty of mis-;n public, if he intended in that remark to charge me representation. Tile gentleman shall be marked, and with being a blackguard? the truth of the case ferreted out. Mr. SAWYER. I hope there will be an end put to Mr. MITCHELL. The whole issue is between the this, and that we may proceed to business. gentleman fronti Licking then, and the Reporter. Oii Mr. CASE. If the gentleman deolines to answer that occasion, the Reporter, (Mr. SMITH,) came to nie, the question, I have no more to say about it; but if ha and asked me to furnish the questions, which I put. in has no objection, I would like to hear his answer. writing. I furnished him this paper nOW in my hand; Mr. SAWYER. You had better let it drop, boys he took it and in a short time returned to me with the -let it all go together. report of my remarks, and if I am not mistaken. I sat Mr. CASE. I will say also, that I made no attack down with himn, at the time, and compared my memo- upon the genitlemana from Trumbiull, and;f he under randum with thie report, and I think the word "uncoil- stood liie as doing so, he is mistaken. I read a part ditional," in connection with repeal, was retained. I of a speech of his, as I did of those of the gelitlemen gave the Reporter my memorandum, atnd supposed he from Medina and Hamilton. I [lade no allusion to had used it. As to the conduct of the gentlemaii from him in debate, and yet the gelitlemain hits charged me Licking, I have nothing to do with it. with having made an attack upon hil He also ac Mr. CASE. 1 will assure the gentleman that when cuses me of having quoted unfairly from his speech. he comes to see the original manuscript, he will find I deny it. The quotation is fairly made, and any geli his mistake, so far as respects the word "enconlition- tieman who examines the speech will say so. He al." I know it is not nor never was in it. charges nme with having selected a single paragraph, The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELIN,) and of givilitg a wrong version to it, for the purpotso cotxiplains that I have altered my question and his an- of effectling a misrepresentation. swer to it, in the manuscript. I will for one moment glance at his remarks as they Mr. REEMELIN. I say thait I saw the report iii are reported, under date of December 25, In page 165, the gentlerinan's hands, for the purpose of correction, of the reports. We had then reached the considera and that the quotation from a f)rmter speech of mine, tionI of the amendment introduced by the former was not made' as reaed here. He(- did not make the cor- member from Fairfield, (Mr. RosERTsos,) and there rections that ought to have been mnade, and as it stands had been at the time very little discussion of the q,te the whtiole is r,',Ldered the reverse of the doctrine I tion. The first remarks were made by the gentlemain hold. from Butler, (Mr. VANCe.) The gentleman from Mr. CASE. I deny that I have touched what he Hamilton, (Mr. GROESSBECK,) followed and read fromn said, or altered what Isaid myself in substance. If any 6th Howard, to prove that a franchise is properly. gentlemnan.ays sO, he states that which is false; and I'lhe gentleman from Knox, (Mr. MITCISELL,) read want here, to put the talsehood square in his face. from Jacob's law dictionary, a definition of the term Mr. REEMELIN. What I said was, that I seen the flanchise. He thought the assertion of the gentleman gentlenman with iiiy own eyes, correcting his speech; from Hamiltonii, (Mr. GROESBEcK,) a little too broad, he made other corrections, why not these? but did not deny it. Then followed the gentlemnan Mr. CASE. I nmade quotations from the speeches from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY.) What did he say? of the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) tile His remarks are to be found on page 173, of the de. gentleman from Knox, ( Mr. MITCHELL,) and the,eri- bates. This was before menmbers became excited upon tieman from Medina, (Mr. HUMPHREVILLE,) to show this question, and before certain political policy was that each of theri had admitted that a franchise is pro- brought on to this floor in connection with this ques. perty. I read them for that purpose, and for no other. tioli. It is as follows: The extracts I had marked,and were fairly taken. It "But what is a charter? Gentlemen say it is pro is true that when I had finished reading so much of perty. I agree that it is property; but because it is the speech of the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. property, can it always be seized for tile public usen REE.IMELIN,) as I desired, and had marked for that pur- {Must there not be first an existing necessity? For inpose, he called upon me to read more-inot in regard to stance: I own a horse. Under ordinary circumstances that question, but uponi some other matter foreigli to the government has no right to take my horse from the point. When called upon by the gentleman I did me. But a war suddenly springs up; it becomes niecesnot see fit to refuse to read, but I did not deeri it proper sary to send a courier through the country wlere I reto insert in my speech that wtiich I had read at his in - side; my horse becomes necessary for the purpose, anil stance, and which had no relation to the subject. He it is taken and paid for. Here is the necessity, aide had the opportunity to see my remlarks as reported, and the true application of the rule. For gentlemen will might have done so, if he had chosen to take the trou- ree that governments have no power wiitonly to ble, and correct his own remarkls. I always correct my seize upon individual property. A necessity must acown; never, however, the remarks of others. I knew, tually exist." as I said before, the men I was dealing with, and ex- Now here is the entire setence. It was spoken peetlug that the subject would be brought up again,Nwhr 8teetr eaee.I vnsoe pecting that the subje ct would be brought up again, when there was no controversy upon this question, on was prepared on every point. either side. The gentlemian spoke like a lawyr n While I am up, I desire to call the attention of the de. The gentleman spoke lute a lawyer and W from Trumbull to the remarks mallde by him, as a lawyer would iaturally speak on the first presengentleman foTrmultation ofak ad yhm n answer to this viery spe~ech. In looking o f this question. I will now read further from published, I have been struck with surprise. I know said e speech on the same page. The gentleman that gentlemen sometimes get excited in debate, and - sav things that they ought not to say; and I will go as "My democracy goes back beyond 1848. I do not far as ally one to excuse the harshness of that which know but it is an old doctrine, but I'lever heard of it. issaid in the heat of debate. But I wish to ask the But what is property? According to Blackstone, progentleman one question. Here is a remark of his, in perty is divided into real and personal. There is a sort the debates, reported as follows: of property called cihoses in action, and a charter seems "If a man will make a blackguard of himself, he to come as near to that as anything." must not complain if he is treated as such." Now the gentleman says that the reporter must hlais Thera is, it is true, an"if" interposed, and there is een mistaken in attributing this sentitnent to hinm 3: s 596 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, PEB',UARY 13 The reporters are not lawyers; and nobody but a law. yer would talk about "choses in action.." Moreover if the gentleman was mis-reported, the papers containing the reports are posted up, as thev appear onl a desk in this room, and every gentleman has an opportun lity to make the proper corrections, and when corrected they are sent to the printer, in order to have them reformed iun the book edition. I s ay wthen, that in the first de bate, there w as no controversy upon this qa,estion; and it wa s s aid and admitted, and by no one denied, that a franchise is property. And about ten days afterward s this fact is taken notice of by the gentleaan from Fra nklin, in a nother debate which todeo sprung up on this question, who, (page 261,) sa;d: "A franchise is niotproperty! This I believe was first heard in this debatec from tie gentleman from Miami, (Mr. Do b sE~,) who, I am t sorry to p erceive, is not in his place; an d it was reiterated by the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANiNEY,) who, I am happy to tsee, is in his s eat. A doc tor of medicin e and a d octor of laws have told us there is no property in a fran. chise. " Now will any o ne assert that I have read the gentleman unfairly? True lie reads from a speech he made some w eek or ten days after on another occasion, wher e ie takes ground that a franchise is n ot property. Mr. LOUDON rose to a question of order. We have, le said, a rule that gentlemnen shall speak only twenty minutes the first time, and ten minutes the second time, upon any questi:on. He believed the rule had been already exceeded by the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASE). If we go on in this mannier, we shall have all the old speeches said over, and occupy the whole day. He thought it the duty of all to attempt to get to business. The PRESIDENT said the gentleman rose to a question of privilege, which was always a privileged question. He believed he was now going on to make a speech or an argument. He could not see what this had to do with his question of' privilege. Mr. RANNEY said he had too much respect for himself and lor this body to go back and enter into this small potatoe business. What he had said was upon record, and by it he was willing to be tried. It was correctly reported and explained itself. Mr. CASE said that when he rose he had only intended to ask the gentleman from Trumbull, (MSir. RANNEY,) a question. That question he has refused to answer. All (said lie) that I have to say, is this, that if he intended to apply to me that dirty word "blackguard," I hurl it back into his teetn-yes, 1 cram ttat filthy word down his very throat, to the place from whence it camne-filth to filth. [Cries of *'order," "order."] The PRESIDENT. The gentleman will take his The question being on the reconsideration, Mr. MANON said he had voted with the majority, and against striking out. He then believed himself to be in the right. In the course of the subsequent discussion, he had been led to doubt the correctness of his conclusion. On this account he had made the motion. Mr. STILWELL had voted yesterday for striking out. He preferred the term ex post facto, but he had, this morning, been shown the draft of an amendment which he thought would harmonize all conflicting opinions. For the purpose of making such an attempt, he hoped the geitleman from Licking would withdraw, his motion. Mr. MANON then asked and obtained leave to withdraw his amendment. Mr. MASON moved to further amend the report by inserting after the words "provided however," in section thirty-three, the following: "That the General Assembly may, by general laws, authorize courts to carry into effect, the manifest intention of parties and,_ officers, by causing omisioris, defects and errors, i:n instruments and proceedings arising out of their wrunt of conformity with the laws of this State, and uipon such terms as shall be just and equitable, and.' The qu,stion then being on the last amendment offered by Mr. MASON, Mr. STANBEIRY said. This brings us back to a new experimient. IIe wished he could see as plainly as gentlemen, what could be said ir, favor of this amendment. What it proposes is what the courts have always had the power to do, except in one or two instances. They have always had the power to enforce contracts defective for want ef form. It gives the Legislature no new pever. He hoped we would go back to the provisions of tile old Constitution, which had been in force for forty-eight years, and had worked well, leaving the power with the Legislature, where it always had been. Mr. MASON said it was the fault of advocates of a proposition to over state its advantages, and of the opponents to underate them. Such was the nature of all argumentation. The gentleman from Franklin, [Mrr. STANBErY,] says that the amendment contains no power. It prohibits retrospective legislation; and doing that, I ask the gelhtlen i i f i t doe s nothiwng? Mr. STANBERY said l he should vot e fo r the proposition, but preferred to vot e f or a r econsideration of the vote taken yester da y, up on striking out the word "retroactive." Mr. MASON. The object is to provide th at the General Assembly may pass curative laws —to cure the errors committed by our own sworn an d com missioned officers. Mr. STANBERY. Does the gentleman say that this provision will give to the courts the power to correct, in ca se of a wsill informally executed? Mr. MASON. I was about to say that the provitsion is a very important one, and I do not see but it covers all tfie cases where interference on the part of the Legislature ought to be allowed. In the case of a will m ade in Virginia, and made in compliance with the laws of that, and devising land in Ohio, it comes to this State, and in consequence of its not bein_, ex. ecuted according to the provisions of the statutes of the State, it cannot be executed. This provision will give redress in such a case, which hitherto our courts~ could not give. Mr, STAN TON thought there were radical defects In the proposition. If he understood gentlemen, theyr objected to the passage of mere private statutes, swhere the interests of particular parties were leg,islated upon in a particular case. If so, thoughh he believed them to have been in many cases useful, and knew no case inl which they had been injurious, he should make no~ seat. Mr. CASE. I have said all I had to say. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention took up the report of the committee on the Legislative Department, with the pending amendments. ['The question pending being on the amendment of Mr. MASON, to wit: Insert after the word "provided," in section thirty-three, the following words: ,That nothing herein contained shall prevent the enactment of curative laws, affecting only the form o f g i v r e r s. n s c c s,. w h c h i t e r t o o u n o u t of instruments, and carying into effect the manifest ~~xi into e ttemanifest iatention of parties, and." Mr. MASOiz asked and obtained leave to withdraw his amendment. Mr. MANON moved a reconsideration of the vote by which the Convention yesterday refused to strike out the word "retroactlve," and insert the words,ex ot facto." OHIO "F)NVENTION DEBATES-TiiUCSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. r of providing for ex- tion to the proposition he now offered,especially as, on pxceptional. General a former occasion, he had been misapprehended by the and comprehensive reporter. He was made to say, that by the adoption a ttempt to point out of a provision of this kind, we should set an example an radically aefective. for the imitation of other States in philanthropy. On that cannot be class- the contrary he had stated that other States had set the example, and he desired to see Ohio follow in their of powers in terms wake, as soon as possible. He said that Virginia had h honstruction, and the already appropriated large sums for the purpose of as ose meaning has not sisting her colored population to emigrate. Kentuckv provision had been also,had made a beginning to assist her free black pop hese: "The General ulation, which in all probability would end in send ass general curative itkg them to Africa, and he desired to see Ohio follow he power to pass pri- ing the wake of these States, and beginning to do as. I say, in conclu- the same thing. ie d;d not desire to say anythi?ig the provisions of the upon the subject of colonization in general. The received a judicial amendment he had offered provides that the General ase, in all the States, Assembly may act, when it can be done without caUs the exercise of sucht ing the immigration of colored persons into the State, ,which would doubtless be consti ued so as to prohibit Me amendment of Mr. any action, until such a result could be secured. he word "may," and With that view of the subject, lie had offered his sa ecral curative laws." amendment. e amendment of Mr. The question being on the adoption of the amend inent: say. This subject Mr. QUIGLEY moved to reconsider the vote by adr atntion, and he had which the Convention struck out from section thirty. ttenent in a proper four, the following words. "nor grant by appropria l e the amendment hoe tion or otherwise, any amount of nioney to any indi oerld it now. He vidual, or any claim real or pretended, when the same believeitprpose. TI gentle- shall not have been providedfor by pro-existing law." a explained wihat the On which motion, Mr. QUIGLEY demanded the curative laws. The yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resultedonomi frov,] hail men- yeas 49, iiays 41, as follows.' ought not provided Y.As —.Messrs. BlaIr, Blickensderfer, Cahill,Chaney, tlieman from Clark,- Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groestcontracts of married beck, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, ecessity of such de- Humphreville, Hunt, King, Kirkwood, Larwill,Lidey, aly occur, unless we Loudon, Manion, Mitchell, Morris, McCormick, Norris, ioo pass laws of this Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Poemelii, Riddle, etive execution of a Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith convey title, and it of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickuey, Stidger, Struble, carry that intention Swaii, Thompson of Shelby, Townsbend, Vance of ct deeds Butler, Warren, Wilson, Worthington and President edsproved. defect- — 49. whnuoeSupreme Court NAYcsessrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont~ ie i a particular man- gomery, Baruett of Preble, B3tes, Beiiiiett, Brown of nan from Clark, [Mr. Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of u re-I by gon int M1s9 s mrinto Licking, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, ra ntor, and he is an Florence, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, nt e ltciay be dead, or Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock his heirs, give public of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Larsh, Leadnthcery and in every better, Mason, Moirehead, MeCloud, Otis, Peck, Smith eat least five un- of Warren, Stanbory, Stanton, Stilwell, Taylor, WilNow, instead of a1l lams and Woodbury —41. ~uthorize the Leg,isaer which all deeds So the motion to reconsider was agreed to. alid. I like the old The question then being on the amendment of the eful Oiie, and in my Conmittee of the Whole, to wit: strike out from sec tion 34, 1he followiug words, "nor grant by appropriTd,boetdet of Mr. HOLCT, ation or otherwise any amount of money to aiy indi vidual on any claim, real or pretended, when the e amendment of Mr. same shall not have been provided for by preexisting Mr. BICKE~llERFR moed further to amend Mi. QUIGLEY moved to perfect the words propothe epor byaddig, s anaddtional section, the sod to be stricken out, by adding, at the cud thereof, following ~~~~~~~~~~~t.he follo~w~ag' "Appopratios o mony my be made for the' "Ltnloss such claim ho passed by a majority of two c~~~~~~~~oloiainonre epeo oo residing in the thirds, in each branch of the General Assemablv." Stae wth hei cnset. n te cas ofAfiica whn- Which was agreed to. everin te oinio of he enerl Asemby itcan The question thou being on striking out the amendhe done without causing an memiraiono uhpr et, as amended; it was disagreed to. sons from adjoining States." The qucstioii then being on tl~e arnelidment of Mr. Mr.B. ai hodeire t sa afew words ill rela- BL,c~rzs,~aarx: serious ob-jectioni. Tile difficult ~eptional cases, is that they are cannot be Howide eiany pogh, ,en(ou-h, to me,et them all. Anyi and classify ca ses will be fout L The very 3i,ect is to p.tt cases ;~fied. Again. Heeis at (eclar,-tian ,-hat hive received no judicial c introduction of new,v plhrases who bseen settled. I had rath-er the mfiade in general termi,s, suchI as t] Assembly shaoll have pow,\er to p statutes."~ This would cut off tl rvate statu,tes for particular case s,iont, that I am sorry to abandon ")Ild Conisttittion.'They have ,s. on-structiOD, anPd there is net a c: wh,l-ere injustice ihas be,en doiie b ,i ~po~wer. iMr. HOLT roered- to am,-endc th Mao,by striking, out all atfter tl iinserting, the following,,,pass ge~ Tlhe qusinthen bein-g ou.ith, Mir. HDrLT said he had little tc -had attracted considerable atto 1-~aken a dleep interest in its sett t~uanner. He d-id not exactly lik( had offered, but would in,)t s.-op -t believed, it would answer the p ,~-nan from Clark, [ M~r. -klA —ON,]ha ,legal profession understood by gnt~leman fromq F.'ranklin,- [ivr. tind n y tw"o cases that he th( fior by tlhe amendment of the ge-.t those c-f defective wills, and the :w<3mei. N'ov;, I'will ask the m ~ay and, e-xpen~- as mu-st inevital give the Legislttiiure the power t 'kind. T&ke the case of a doe( dr,eed. The grait'or in-tended to ~strue that" a court of equity can ;,n,to efPfect. Buit ir,anv t,hon-asad are anullrade. -HIow mianyd ice, when, uipop. a certain oc-casion djecid-ed that all deed-s, exvecuted aier, were not goofl.? The gentlen ,)IAso-~,] says- thecy,nay all be c c,han~3cery. If you can findI the gi ,honiest mian., lie will coffect it. B-U oil;t of the way; you must L~unt upt n,.otice, aned go into a court of chia t~housan-d such cases there willi be tired si-c.h bills in chancery. r~hi~s dela.y and expense, Irwul ,'ature to. pass ~, gen-era.1 law, und ,execuated -in this way sh-,ould be w }.1aw bes~t, ani-d believe it to be a -s( The question i~e bei ng- on1 the iti M -ss tesme wa,s d,adopted. t+he rpr, s by a~ddn, tsa d ,'Appropritions t ofi bem,one tt ee i.n the opinine"a, aof theGeer 597 Mkr. PERKI.N said he had no idea of spertking? to h le dld it was s.tdoIn rl)al new cojr-re-(,iiy i,eporek'cdeaf ears, or of running his hlead against a stone waill; I Ia, I'v e ben lade to ys a ret maiy foolish liiilgs. but l he wished simply to ask his democratic friends and[ a treat niarry thii)gs that I sever did say-aid I1 upon the other sid(e, how this amend-menet comported hnvetlis (les,re,to hliT; e y i re k sc ubi itted ton- i with their doctrine of the true intent and purpose of before tlhev are s lit of. goverirnent. Ile had heard it said by them over and IMr. P resident I io iot one of tho-e wiho wuld over again, that governinerits wvere instituted for er- ine atters I oulId meet tiis question as I would, tain ends, a,,d that tlhose en-ds were simply the pres- all othlers, soUre ii,-t tle face. I wvill not I.at alut, ervation of social order, anid the administration of1 thie uish Nor', sir, wvhat is the Ipropos.ition bejustice; and that the right of taxation was limnited fo)reus? It. is to make the 8tate of O)hi,i, the great .nolely to those ob.jects. I would ask tihem tlhen, thororonlfare for ali tie r.egroe; of all of the other w)at right they have to aippropriate my ioney to States re twe to ml-ake it tie great lazar house. foi carry the negroes of Ross countv to Africa? If they all ti re iraw,y arnd emancipated riegioes from the are.shliaved bv a black ba)rber, what right have thejr Slave States atrond u'? lhat are lIhe provisionis of to t'.x us, whir) are shavecd by a whitebarber? IHereto- this amiendroent? I uxiderstaiid tliear, aiid I am tolf fore they have asserted that all just governments are that by providiing fk,r tihe reimoval of the negroes now confinedt within certain limnits, and when those limits iii this State, t hat hle_ers w1ll m conie hi. Now sir —are tiansgressed, the result is usurpation, and nowv you are beginning iin the wrtong pie — if vou desire they pro,pose to pass this amrnenIme,it, in direct con- I to remedy the evil, you must frsrt shut dod;'n the gate traverition of t-lat doctine, and pass it xvith the anid prevent any tore from coolin- in if youdo enot, worids lib(erjty ad equality upon their lips. th l v states witl thlrlU,t ulporln is thetjr worthless Ytr. lU iF[i'tlE IVLLI was rct dis )osedto let this emancipatetslaes. -i)o we w ino see etouglh that, i.s asieinditeni p,ass,5 witliout eutein g his proteast it i i. in the states rnd us. ]Irdiana lhas proIf tle lege oi Oio, want to go to Africa, let them I psedto shut the C our attaiist that kitid of populago; bu' lie protestet agains t atny provisio,n that seould tioni, -Ard 5e ee r tecon nenir'ttiors in the slave states t:ix tihe eotle acairst thleir will, to carry them there. to remove the free colored po1ilation froe their states, lie kinew that this Cololn'izati,ln Society was called a i)ne of which is only separated from this bv a river.. p,,hilanthropic society. So is the bible and tract society, Then sir, does it io,t becenae us to look around and. an,d lie was as unwilltig to be taxed to aid in carrying see what will bethe resuilt if we permit their refu.e on the opertons of one, of these, as another. Some negroes tobe saddled upon this State'? I repeatsirpeople consideredi the society for th}e ahbolition of sla'e-,are we prepared to nmae tihis State tie great laizat' ry, by the pinrei,ase and rntouriissioii olf riegroes, 1s a h ouse ffor thlis class of people, and tax the people otr Iti'laiitirolic society. It nimay be so; bht hlie protested tiiis State for their sullppo(rt't *,taitnst beii;g taxed for the futrthlieralee of its ens Lelt I siihall vote against this prolposition, be~cause you' lil te, carriedc oi bv the p rocee(ds of the charity of trhe do not begin ii) the right place —stop tlieni frotn comr people. The, arv' iot eroper objects for the support of ing iii first, and then 1 vould clothe the General As.rite goyeriilent. I either one of these ol)eects is so, semiolv withi power to remove them wherever they oane{ wo,ld present so stroop. claims as that of dissemi- sIould eeproper so to do-and whether they did or :ating the surpluses a.niog ihei poor and thIe vicious of not, they should be prevented from coming into this. tlhe State; yet no oite proposes a constitutional provision State, for divers reasons that I will not here discuss., that tihere Fia!l be a contribution from the treasurv it) What do we warnt of this kiud of population among aid of ihie objects eof tlie bl,,te society. To keep reli - ust Tere is a superstitious notionst prvailing with dioi, its truths aiid piemises, iii the ainds of men, some people, tialt a goat isagood thing about a'stable mray be uecessarv to keep iOe:, in order, yet onrie of the to keep off distempers. Sir, if the abolitionists, the firsi provisions of tihis constiiiutioni is that no man, peculiar friend of the negro, had have expended one agiiitst his will, sh.ll be taxed for the lupport of re- half of as rmuch in amelioratinlg their condition, and litticn. i ncreasing their happiness, as they have in publishing Thiere is another reasonr why such taxation would be and disseminirating incendiary publications, by which unjust. The negro popaslatioO is very unequally dis- they have been manifestly and_unjustly injured iA rocks to pre-erit them from, steaiicr. It midst co0t foTllows: "ess. I noww tliat this question I.as its difsiculties, Yeas.-Messrs. Farr, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, and opens a w(ie f.eld for discusscio, whicih I atn not London, Mitchell, McCormick, Ortoni, Ranhney, Saw.isl)osed to eciter. yer, Smithi of Wyandot, Stebbints, Williams and Pres Mr. I'resident, I am inquired of as to how rnany ideut.-13. ne ros we have inI Holi,s.coun ty. I answer one Nays.-Messrs. Anlrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montand a very likely one to. I do not kInow whether he gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Beinnett, Blair,Blickwas evers slave or not. i4e says ie w,as inot —but if l ensderfer, Brown of _-t'tens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, he was, I douibt much if he be taken away-he minds I,Case of HIock.iig, Case of Lickinz, Chamt-bers, Chaney, hi: own bhusi-ess, arid takes care of liis own money. I Collings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Ewing, Flor Mr. HOL;iES mov(d to a.imtl tie amendment ofl once, F'orbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Rosa, Mr. B,I-:st, by strikitg out all aftev tihe word Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, fHenderson, Hitch"'Africa," aud ins rting thle sine wiich lie had previ- cock of Cayaihogaa, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, ously ofered atd w;tlhdrawt. Holt, -Iootinan, Horton, Humpli-revil le, Hunt, Hu lter, The question tlhee bin on the amnenmelneit to the Job'Json,l JonIIes, King, Kirkwoo(d, Larsli, Larwill, iamendmeat, Leechli, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mason, Morehead Mr. HOLA{Ef said he perceived from what he Morris, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck,' hlad hea-d, the necessity of arnt iF provision of this Perkins, Quigley, ReemelIn, Riddle, Scott of Hlarrikind. If we pass a law appropr4iating mnoney for the son, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Snith of Highland, p)urpose of col-ionzin,g our colorefd populatio(n on the Sm,ith of Warrent, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Stickcoast of Africa, th.e State of Ohio woutld be made a ney, Stidger, Struible, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of poinrt to whlichl all who desired to go to Africa owould Sh-elby, Thomrnpson of Stark, Towusliend, Vance of rush from the adjointig States. tie would vote for the Butier, Warren, Wiltiams, Woodbury, Worthington. amendmeednt of the -geatlemian fromn Tusearawas, aia -85. would )ay chleerfully his portion o,f a tax to relieve a So the call for the previous question was not sus,alas that eanoot be equal with tie white population tained. ,af the State. Inee, if we authoriz, anI apl)ropriation, The question then being on the amendment to the let us prevent tie,n fiom comisg ii here, on purpose ame,dment.: t be seat te Afriea. Mr. EATES. In asking the indulgence of the Mr-. iIAW-INS said lthis was not a question of Convention, to allow mne the opporitunity of giving philanthropy mnerely, but one that demanids tihe wis- my op1iior0s on the important question now before us, dom and foresight of statesmerne. It is a gre,at and a to prohibit the imnmigration of the colored population, growing evil that is to be provided.tgainst. There I wish distinctly to disclaim the least intentioia of inare, it is said arrantgements on the part of the United peachilug, either the humanity or the patriotism, of Stateslbywl-ichthe meansofemir rationtoAfricawillbe tiose gentlemrien who may happen to differ from me in facilitated to all those wbh desire to go. He would in- sentiment. quire of the peculiar frietids of the colored race-those The present is a question on which there may be a wl}o voted to exteisi( ta tiem the right of suffrage, wide range of discussion, on thie ground of expediency, what;. the.I)jection? Why do they oppose the exer- and on whiich we may differ hlonestly, as to the best fise of the p)ower to enable themr to emigrate where methiod of obtaining an object desired by all parties. they can hlave a counttry of their own, and be free an- But I amn aware also, that while we are seeking for exd,er their owii governmentit. ie, could see no valid rea- pedieiits in difficult cases, it is very easy to lose sight s;.o for such a c )urse. IHe wis willing to be taxed for of those great principles which should form the basis a pturpose of tt;i: kiild. Not that he felt any hostility of our political Institutions. I desire also, to say that to the colored pap-lation, but he desired to improve I regard the policy of the slave States, in throwing the oily ieass at preseut existing to relieve them, and upon us their worn oult and degraded slave population, us fr,om existiug evils. It would be necessary to pre- when it can be iio longer profitable to themin, as a donvent tlhel froem cue-lg to Ohio for the purpose of re- ble act of injustice. If they regard them as a nuis _ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~. -- - 7 J.- _,..-. - J - -..-J --. 0 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TiURSDAY, FEB,tUARY 13. ance, (as they profess to do,) they ought not to throw that nuisance upon us. They have made it what it is. And they are bound to dispose of it in a proper manner without interference with their neighbors. But while their policy is unfair, and highly obiection!able in reference to us-it is cruel in reference to the emanacipated slaves, in forcing them to leave the land of th ei r birth, their friends and relations, and all the associatious which have been ende(ared to them by thle circumstances of life. And it would be cruel in us-if, in opposing the policy of the s ave holders, we increas-t ed the bitterness of the sufferings of its victiams. Ard here I will take occasion to remark, that while I would not invite the free colored people of Ihe slave States to emigrate to us, I think, as I said on a former occasion, that we ought to treat them with the conimon rights of humanity, when they do come. I think there is also a wide differen~ce between grantiing them the rights which lhunmanity derand(,s, the right of a home upon our soil, and tile means of mental and moral improvement, and conferring upon theinm prizileyes, for the exercise of which they ulay not be prepared. With these preliminary remarks, I will proceed to give my views on the subjeot before us. In the first place I regard the proposition as behhid the moral sentiment of the age in which we live. Theti civilized nations of the earth would look with astonishment at such an act, perfi,rmed by a constitautional convention of the free and flourishing state of Ohio. AnJ I for one, am not willing to be an agent in fixing such a stain uponii her reputation. By applying thisr prohibition to the whole colored race, we slial) come directly into conflict with a provision in the Federal constitution, by which the citizens of each state, have the broad shield of National protection thrown ovqr their rights in emigrating from one state to another. Difficulties have already occurred. An open quarrel has taken place between two of the states-Massachnsetts and South Carolina —anti although no irreparable mischief has yet been produced, yet they have clearly shown that such results may take place. And it could not fail to be deeply mortifying to a large proportion of our constituents if the state of Ohio, should be placed, in reference to this subject, with South Caroliua. It seems to me. that such an act as is now proposed, whatever its advocates may intend, would carry on the face of it, very little regard for the wil of the people. It was but recently, that the odious "Black Laws" were struck from our statute books, by the almost unanimous concurrence of men of all parties. And now to revive the same thing, in a worse form, and embody it in the constitution, and thus place the subject as far as possible beyond the power of the peD- pie to correct it again, could notfail to produce a strong opposition to the, whole document. We proudly boast that our country is the asylum for the poor and the oppressed of all nations. Our invitations, wafted on every wind, and reaching the deepest recesses of hi)mandegradation, have lighted up the visions of hope to millions who were ready to perish. And the floods of emigration are still swelling with the continual outpourings of Europe. But here is a down trodden race-emphatically the victims of op pression-not foreigners but naties of the United States, aud they and they alone are to be prohibited from setting theirfeet upon our soil. Why was it that the "Black Lalws" were permitmitted to lie a dead letter upon our Statute books? Plainly because they were revoeting to the common feelings of humanity. And what will be the effect of engraftiug all the odious features of those laws upon our new coiistitutioni' Will it not carry with it an open disregard of the well known moral sentiment of the people of Ohio? Will it not do more-and become' a virtual endorsement of the system of slavery itself%' I am awa re that the m-easure is regarded by somt geniilemen as a r ebuke to the slavelolding states as welt as a measure to counteract their policy in reference to its bearing upon iss. But I think I can see, in the proposed roheasure,an efmact doartctly the reverse of a reabake of thheSoclither e poplicy. Thatpoicy isfounded upoil the assumptionu-cont radieted by historical facths —at still perthtmaeiously maintained-that the people of collor are not capable of enjoying the benefits eI freedomn. it is not my intention to introduce this subject for discuss;o3n, any further thm- tn is immediate Delatiotb to the propo)osi'ion becfo(e us. Ili this view of the sub.ject, it is proper to state tl}e feet tltit wi2l a larve ntmber of Southerli gentleme, this dogma lees at lbs,. 'very foundation (of tlhe- system Df slavery as it Iiov, exists in the Ulnited States. The 6io1i"1n before as e -a derses this doctrine —nay more,,t adopts it-and iakd e it a part of the org,ntie law of the State. And when we look back at tile history of otr couttry for the last twenity-five years, ] cayt but re%gard this movement as& a progress-a progress of Southern iPolcy-exte.}diog its influence, its principles, and its poxwo over the Northern Partial) of our Republc. And I cont'ess,tliat when the claim has been openlg advanced to the r9iqkt to extend the InsDt'atan of Slavery itself o, er the ter ritories of the United States, I feel jealous of every measure that would glve any sanction tI, the pri,nCiple,&, on which that Ir,stitatioii is supported or defended. Int a case like the prese nt,olving tile dearest rights of a portio. of thie hurnain fatniiysit would seer to be necessary to lay down soImie definite rule by which the appic.,tl.on of this provision eiould be reg ulated. Legal pasi. s and peiakties are made to depend upon somne overt act, of which ~the party must be duly convicted —leaving the burden of proof on the pros, cution. But here is a case, or rattler cogss of cases, ine which the forfeiture of natural ri~ghis is not predicated on1 any orert oct of' the party. It is the color of his skin! Can you defin-e that color precisely which for feits a nman's ~u;,,'~l ~iqbts? We'have Heard of sole, ludierous instances of gentlemen of ve3-y high stand ing who have been taken for persons of Colo. Sup pose sorme legal conssequences hrad been involved in the cases to whii-ch I allu(jde, wold the question of solor have Ken dec;ded by the eye? No, certairly not. For by ector we do not> ia this amendment, mean colm at at). It is something with which the eye has noth ing to do-optics are out of the question. What iby it, thenm Why, you anust get his genealogy from the, time of the deluge, and if you cats discover one single cross with the descendants of Ham-he, must stand condemned as a person oYf color; fozr the priDipvle is, that the mixture iie-er runs out. Ten or ten theoesa and times diluted by mixtures with the Circassian raee, and it is still the same. Wi1l you on tle basis of sueh a phllosophy as thes, cast a reproach upon our State in, the, eyes of the civ ilized world? Will you trample the rights of human ity under foot-an(d aggravate the in)juiries already re ceived by thisrace? Will yOu disregard tile already expressed sentiment of the Feople of this State oa a great moral and politio-al question? Will you endorse the whole system of Southern slavery, and embody i1 this Constitutio}n a Brat eontradiction to the "Bill of Rights," on which it is professedly founded? O~r if you do, will tile people ofi this Commonvwealthl ratify the deed? We shall see. Mr. TAYLOR saul he did not rise to elaxrm the at tertion of members upoxn'.he genera~l merits of thls proposition. He was opposed 1o the adoption of the amendmernt or of the original section. He was op — posed to it, because he hadi an1 extremre desire to see, this Constitution adopted by the people. At ally rates I Soo OHIO CONVENTION DIbBATES-THURsDAY, FEBRUARY 13. - upon the subject, but they could not be put in force. Would you surround the State with custom houses? - Would you turn our whole population into negro t catchers? Would you stand upon the shoals in the Ohio river and thus keep themi from crossing. It can. not be done. You may have captains and you may have mirlitia companies, and you may watch all the fords of the Ohio river, but you will niever be able to I guard your boundary and to prevent its being crossed 1 any more than you can prevent pigeons from passing , in the air. - But suppose the provision could be entforced, have you any moral right to do it? The proposition is, that. the immigration of negroes may be prevented. f If it is true in regard to negroes, it is equally true as applied to all other classes of persons; and if it is true now when the population of the State is 2OOO,O000,000, - it was true forty years ago. It was true when the r population of the'State was ten or ten thousand. Do gentlemen claim that a population indefinitely small can enter into possession of an immense do main and prevent all the other sons and daughters of - Adam from acquiring and possessing property within it. God's earth is free to be possessed by all mankind w under the operation of just and equal laws, and when the majority of a people attempt to prescribe to the minority, to whom', and to whom only, they shall dispose of their estates, they are guilty of an usur, pation of tyrannical and unauthorized power. Gentlemen talk of the Anglo Saxon race. But again, if this provision could be enforced, and if it w- ere morally right and proper, yet it is directly in contradiction of the constitution of the United States. m That constitution provides that. "citizens of each State shall enjoy all the rights and privileges of citi zens in the several States." Now, negroes are citizens in New York and Massa chusetts, and some other of the States, and they claim the right to enter this State and to acquire and pos se ss property here under the constitution of the Union. The argument, Mr. President, is all on one side. I shall not pursue it further. But before I sit down I wish to advert to this question in another aspect. Tliey tell us that it is the dominant race in the world, a race superior in endowments, powers and ener gies, to any other and they are proud of their dis tinction as partakers of its blood; yet it would seem they dare not, with all their Anglo Saxon energies, to come into a competition with others upon equal terms for the right to labor and to acquire and possess pro perty in this great State. They are afraid that this degraded negro, whom they so despise, will compete for and control the rewards of labor anid industry among them. Mr. President, I am. too proud of my Anglo Saxon blood-I have too much confidence in it, to be afraid of the competition of a negro, or of any other man or set of men. I am too proud to vote for a proposition of this kind. I wish now, for a nmoment, to advert to an argument -to the only pretence to an argument that has ever 'been made upon this floor, to justify this negro-hunt, these assumptions of power, this crusade against the negro race. It was offered last summer at Columbus. by the gentleman from Auglaize, and has beetn repeat ed once or twice since, and it is worthy of some no? tice as being the only argulmen-t, and the onlly pretence~ to all argument, yet offered to justify: this whole tissue of encroachmuenrts. The gentleman says he believes in the Declaration of Independence that all men are free and equall and possessed of certain natural and inalienable rights and privileges. But he says the nlegroes shall enjoy these privileges in Africa, and ill Africa alonle. Hie is athis Constitution tmust carry weight; and yet gen tlemern ask it to assume another burden. If it is seriously intended to enter upon the consideration of this question now, and the example that has been set shall be followed, th en the discuss ion will commence. This i s buti a preliminary debate. We shall be const ralned to oppose it to the last extrem ity. We shall be constrained to resist it until we are piout down by the previous question, an, then will commenice that agitation in the public mind that wil seal t the fate of (i e instrument. I se e all around me g e ntlemen who have as yet, keptsilence, who will par take largely in the debate that must ensue. One word in regard to the allusion that has be en made to myself arid others, as the peculiar friends of t he colored population of the State. We are not the peculiar friends of that, or of any other portion of the people. We stand upon an entirely different basicthat of equal rights-witthout being the peculiar friends of any class in particular. We disclaim the term "peculiar." We ask no peculiar favors for the colored race; we are only opposed to peculiar meas ures against them. You have shown yourselves peculiar and special in your doings against them. Those who support the proposition of the gentleman from Tuscarawas may call themselves peculiar; because they wish to tax the people of the State to remove those whom they say, are unfit to participate with them in a republican government, to another coast, there to build up a model republican government. We are asked to support this proposition, because we are the peculiar friends of the colored race. Suppose a proposition were introduced to colonize and remove from the State the Germans or the Irish; who would fail to see in it, the act of an enemy and not of a friend? I will close with a remark that seems to me to be applicable at this time. Is it wise-is it prudent to embark this instrument upon this discussion, and can we secure the support of the people of Ohio, if we insert this untried, this unprecedented provision? Let us take into consideration the fact that the constitution must now encounter various hostility and not array against it, unnecessarily, an undefined degree of opprobium. Instead of a cloud, as small as a man's hand, the agitation now invoked may prove a tempest, filling the whole heaven, and in which the fate of the instrument we propose, nay be sealed. Mr. REEMELIN said, that he rose merely for the purpose of saying that he should vote for both the propositions, not because he believed them right, but because they were in accordance with the sentiments of his constituents. He was not in Ohio last spring, when he was elected. But previous to his election, instructions,had passed the Convention, which had nominated him, whose clear import was an exclusion of negroes from the State. Kniowing this to be the will of ninie-tenthls of his constituents he had to obey, believing that it was their vote he was giving, not his own. For to me, said Mr. R., to know the will of the People, is to obey it! Mr. R. said, that this implicit obedience, he would carry even so far, as not to speak against the provision,'however tempting the opportunity rmight be to give his views at large, on all matters having reference! to the subject. He would merely say, that timne would show the provisions incapable of being carried into effect. Mr. PERKINS. The object of the propositionl is to prevent the immigration of colored persons from other States to Ohio. Mir. President, constitutional provisions cannot effect tinls. The Legislature has heretofore passed laws t s t t c i 0 a b t 601 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-THuRsDAY, FEBRUARY 13. willing, if they will go there, that they shall enjoy fredomn and eq-nality, but they must go there first M3r, President, this is offered as an argument. The gentleman agrees that all men are created free and e,qual, aud possessed of inalienable rights. Now does l]i not see that this admission implies that these rights inhere in the person-in the man, that they go with him and exiist in him wherever he may be, and most of all they exist in him in the country of his birth. And yet lihe assumes to say to this particular man vwhere, and where only, he may exercise his rights. ice assumes this and of course others may assume the same, and the colored race. by the argument of the gentleiian, miay be hunted off the face of the earth, byt iIieii who will declaim all the time about inalienable rights and privileges. Mr. President; there is no getting away fromi thie conclusion. We must either adm.it the negro to the common rights of citizenship, or must deny the Declaration of Independence, and cast the lie in the teeth of thefathers of this republic. Mr. LIDEY -tid hbc.Shiofld vote for the amendment of the gentleman fromn IHanmilton, because such was tihe sentiment of his constituents, but if that was counpled with the anmeidment of the gentleman from Tuscarawtx, he should vote against the whole. I HI e had wished that the proposition of the gentleman fromn Hamilton, had beent offered separately, for he could not wvote to tax the people to carry off the negroes to Africa. On moti on of Mr. GREEN of Ross, the Con ven tion took a recess. promulgated by this class of men, I am willing to do justice both to the party and to the subject. Now, in my apprehension, the amendment proposed by the gent leman from Hamilton, is one wh ich we have no right to incorporate into this Clon stitution. The gent leman fro m Trumbull allutded, ver y briefly to the constitutional question under the Constitution o f the United States; but I wo uld call the attentio n of the Convention to the fact, that that qcuestion has been passed upon judicially. The amendment propos es to exclude all persons of color from immigrating into O hi o; but it should be born e in mind, that in some of the States of the Union, colored noen are citizens, en titled to all the rights of citizenship; and that ques tion, if my memory is not greatly at fault, came up in a case before th e Cou rt of the Unite d States, held in St.Lu. Louis. I d o not reco llect now, whether itwas in the C i r cuit or the Distr ict Cou rt, but that precishe qnes tion came up. There was a colored man who had gone from one of the E aster n or Middle States into MiTssouiei, and an effort was made to thrust him out of the State, because it was thought he bad no right ther e; but the provision of the Constitution of th e Uni ted States was interposed, and it was declared by the United States, Court, that he had the ri ghts of a citizen. What wirau be the rightsof a citizen in any State, is a question for each State to determine for it self; but one thing is ver y clears, and that is, that if they had no right to thrust himn out, they had no right to preven t his going into the State. In that aspect of the case, the refre e, I think we have no right to inceorporate any such provision in our Con sti tution. In the o e aspect of the case proposed by the gentleman from Geauga, i think it would be the height of in humani ty to say, that they should not conme into our State under any circumstances whatever. Suppose DOW. that these people -were thrust out from the States tob Virginia and Kentucky, and other neighboring slave States, shall we meet then] on the Ohio, and say to them, "you shall not ent er our borders; you ow ners may thrust you out of their territory but if the y do you shall not enter ours?" Shall we place them in ln the posiion o the iio o he Israelit es w hen pursued by the relentless Kiong of Egypt and say to the m "i f vour mas ters thrust you out we will meet you oil our shore and you shall be drowned in the Ohio ra ther than you shall be allowed to put your feet upon our shores?" Sure. ly such a course wo uld not coimport with thi ordinary feelings and duties of humanity. But, sir, there is an aspect of the case brought to our notice by iny friend from Jefferson-and 1 must asay that to the remarks of that gentlema n I e ver att end with attention and respect. Unfortunately, per. haps I did not fully catch his seisetimentsas he delivered his valuable remarks to the convention this morning; but I understood from tile course end force of his remarks this morning, that he apprehenided we were in danger here; at least if such were not his own sentiments, he made his argument as if such were the fixed sentiments of otherq. I understood him to intimate that there was danger of having negroes thrust upon us from other States to become paupers here and be waintained at our expense, or sent by us to the colony of Liberia. ]gow, sin, I think I can with truth, say that I knlow something about the instlitution of slavery, anti the rules and feelinlgs which govern slave holders. They are, perhaps nlot quite so moral in their feelings anid lsbits as wse ares, and it ma) be- that we are in this respect entitled to use tile 1language of Htoly Writ and[ say'stand back for lIam howlier than thlou." I do not wish to combat that sentiment if any gentleman here is disposed to entertain it. I care very little about it. You may bestow upon these men what epithets you plea*e; I would meet them adl by sayinlg-even if AFTERNaOON SESSION. I'd o'clock, P. M. The Convent'ion resumed the consideration of the atmendmnent pending when the Convention took a re Mr. COLLINGS. Thisis a most unfortunate time to a-ddress the Convention, especially as I desire that my remarks should reach the ears of some gentlemen who are absent. Mr. M1ITCHELL. If the gentleman from Adams will allow me the floor,I will move a call of the Convention. Mr. COLLINGS. I will give the floor to the genmain from Knlox for that purpose. Stir. M.IITC[IELL moved a call of the Convention. A call of the Oonvention being ordered, the roll was called, and Messrs. Archbold, Barb e e, Chambers, Cl ark, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Florence, Forbes,Grahiam,Green of Ross, Ilitchcocli of Cuyahoga, Ho!t, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Leech, Mason, Norris, Ortoni, Perkins, Ranheiy, Reemelin, Roll, Stanbery, Larwill, Vance of Champaign, alm Way were found absent. On motion of Mr. BLAIR, all further proceedings under the call were dispensed with. ,Mr. COLLINGS. I regret that neither the gentlemfiain fromn Tj-uriubull nor the gentlemnan from Hamilton i.; )resenit, as I intended to address a few remarks to the Convention in reference to what passed betweern them this morning; but as they are not present, I shall refrain from alluding to the. matter now. There is one question, Mr. President, connected with the, sultject under consideration' to which the gentleman from Trumbuli alluded this inorning, and to which I wish especiallv to call the attention of the Convention. I allude to the constitutional question involved in this mat er. so far as regards a provision ill the Constitution of the United States. I suppose that those gentlemen who are acquainted with me will readily admit that } Jim among the last of those who could be suspected of what is called abolitionism; lbut while I claim to be free from participating in the sentiments entertained and 602 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. bring themselves here; they were brought here by others, and all the considerations of humanity require that we should treat them with humanity. If we do not choose to treat them as equals, that is another consideration; but the highest laws of humanity re quire that we should not thrust.them out as beasts of the forest or beasts of prey. Now, if we remove what is thus considered to be a constitutional doubt, and if it should be found that it is to the advantage of these colored people that they should be removed to Africa, let it be within the competency of the Legis lature to do so. I had designed, Mr. President, in the opening of these remarks, to address a few words to the Conven tion, in relation to what fell from the gentleman from Trumbull, but that gentleman was not here in ills seat, and I forbore the allusion. Seeing that he is here now, I will say that I am in hopes that what fell from him and the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr, HOLrtMES,) was hastily said. I trust that I have maintained a little conscience in this convention, and I am entirely willing to concede to all others that they have maintaine d their consciences also in reference to this questi on. But I must say that I regretted to hear the remark of my friend from Trumbull, when he said that those who were o pposed to hii m in sentiment and who would prevent the immigration of colored people at all hazards into the State, were men who were pre pared to assert anything in this debate. I hope that on reflection the gentleman will retract that assertion. I think fie was too hasty and inconsiderate in it; for although I do not concur with those who have pro posed this amendment I would concede to them all the purity of motive in offering it, which I would ask therm to concede to myself. I am quite aware that there is a greatinconvenieince connected with this popular tion, and gentlemen may be perfectly in earnest and operated upon by the best of motives, wshen thev de sire to exclude them from the State; but I do think the provision is a very stringent one, even if we could coin stitutionally enforce it, of which I have my serious doubts. We have tried it by legislative enactment from an early period of our government, and if laws passed by the General Assembly have been found to fail in this respect, what guaranty have we that a provision in our Coustitution would be attended with any better success? Mr. ANDREWS. S:,r, I wish that my friend from Hamilton, had given us a little more information, in relation to the proposed amendment. How many colored people from the neighboring States have been added to our populatioi duringthelastyear? Howmanivdurin- the last two years? How many during the last five years? What is the magnitude of the evil that we are called upon to resist by a constitutional provision? or does the gentleman ask us to act without light upon the subject, and contend with an unreal antagonist 'as one that beateth the air." It appears to me, sir, that if we are to engraft upon the Constitution such a provision as this, we ought to stand upon our rendered reasons-that we ought to have some array of facts to justify our action. Sir, as was truly said by my friend on my left, (Mr. COLLINGS,) we have had, for forty-two years, a law, the express object of which was, to exclude from the State, the free colored population of the nleighb~orinlg States — and whlat was the result? Why sir, after remraining during that long period, dormant uuon1 your statute books it was repealed-rcpealed because it coued lnot bve enlforced, and because the people well understood, that a law that could slot be enforced, was only conltemptible, and ought to be repealed. Anld now what is proposed by this amendment? Why sirs to revive a system of Legislation which has you were disposed to apply so odious all epithet to t hem which I am sure I would not. I woul d still say there is ahonoramotig thieves;" and I wilI saw to this convention, that, so tar as my observation has taught me-atv d that observation has not been very limited on tciJ question of slavery, the slave holder has a higher code of morality than we ar e at all times willing to awa rd to him. Sir, these men have a code of morals by which that slave holder is r endered infam o us among his fellow slavelolders, who should thrust out his poor old slave at the eve of life and say to him "you must now shift for yourself." Sir, by the force of public sentiment in,he slave-lholdiang S ta t es they a re not per mitted to do this, athd b esides that, ther e is an attach. me nt between the slave holder and his family and the poor slave h hich wi do not at all times a ppreciate. Mr. BATES. Will the g e ntle man from Adams al low nme to explain wh at I sai d in regard to this dab t ger? Mr. COLLINGS. I theink I have explained it suffi ciently. I did not say that the gentleman fi'om Jef f erso n re ally expressed fears of danger, but that I thowught, from th o e co urse of his remarkis, he either en tertainoued t he fear, or suppose d it was entertained by others. Now, I think I have made myself understood, that th ere is s uch a code of morals existing among these me n as would prevent any slaveholder fro m th rusting away friom his guardianship tu is worni ou t slave, and thereby say to the world, "this slave is no longer useful to pne, and let the human family now take care of him." Thev are not at liberty so to do, and were thev to atterinpt it, they wCould be disgraced in the eyes of their fellow en-. Sir, however degrading the institution of slavery ma y b e, no reflecting manh can seriously suppose tha the slaveholder is so lost to all sense of decency and huranonity a s to do this. Wehave, therefore, nothing of t'me kind to fear, which has been intimate d in regard to being overrun with these worn out nethroes, and the question then resolves itself simply in tlis: "Are we required for our own safety, to insert this provision in ou r fuindamrenta l law?" F o r my own part, I do not believe that we are; and then afyain comes the to brn yorCi iuiniiodseue xrs beto hc a, toecuefomteSae gqiestion, "Are we permitted, by the laws of humanity, to ius ert a adwaw thie provision?" I think we are not. Now, taking into consideration the const itutiooal provision o f the C ons t itution of the United States, these men being citizens in some of the St ates, I think we have no constitutional right to prohibit their immigration into the State of Oh io. Then, sir, why adopt a provision which may conflict with tlhe Constitrutioll of th e Un ited S tates. which is above all other laws? Whyr especially a ttempt to adopt it, when we know that there is no danger of the slaveholding States (for the sake of their own reputation,) attem ltingto thrust these creatures up us? Why repeat in our Constitution a law which has been on our statute book nearly since the first foundation of our government-a law which has been utterly inoperative, and which always will be inoperative, so lonp as it confiicts with a large amount of public sentiment? There is no necessity forit, sir. It will do no good; and from the very fact of its being inoperative, it will only tend to bring your Constitution into disrepute. Now in regard to the amendment of the genltleman] from Tuscarawvas, it is merely removing, if not a constitutional provisionl~at least a constitutional doubt. I am quite willing to.say that the legfislatulre shalli have this privilege, if they do nlot alre~ady possess it, of making provision by, law for removing these per-k sons to Liberia, if they wristl to go. Bult, sir, they1 are here amuong us, and while it is not oulr fault that they are here, it certainly is not theirs. They did not I I t i 8 r e t i t I t e t 603 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-ThURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. it that they will vote against the Constitution as one man. I do not know, indeed, but that we may be out numbered by the votes of other parts of the State, and compelled to submit to it for a time; but you may be assured, sir, that with this provision in it, your new Constitution, instead of being an instrument of peace, wvill be an exhaustless fountain of strife and contention; and that the people of the north, whose feelings are thus oitraged, will not "give sleep to their eyes, nor slumber to their eyelids," until they have stricken out this obnoxious feature. Let us, then sir, dismiss from our further considertlon, this exciting question. Let us leave the evil to be -remedied by legislation, when a remedy is demn anded, and instead of wasting our time in discussions like this. let us go on with the work committed to us, and be prepared to submit to the people a Con. stitution which they can uninimously accept-which contains no element of injustice, and which will proumote the peace and welfare of every portion of the State. Mr. NASH. Mr. President, I wish to state the reasons why 1 cannot vote for the aiiendmnent of the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. HOLMES ] First, the General Assembly has all the power now proposed, without this clause. Hence it is useless. Again. The Constitution of the United States is directly in the teeth of this amendment. This is with ni!e an insuperable objection to it. Again. We have tried this legislation for forty years, and it has failed. Such a law cannot be exec uted They will come here; and you cannot take them back without violating the laws of the slave 'States, and runninig directly into the jaws of the penitentiary. I know the evils of this emigration; I am aware of the system of emancip.tion which casts upon our territories a degraded and worthless population. I would obviate this evil, if I knew how it could be done; I would not do it, save as a measure of Fse'f-protection; I have no spirit of persecution against any (of God's c reatures.) Bult enough. Mr. HOLMES asked, and obtained leave to withdraw his amendment. Mr. VAN CE of Butler, moved to amend the amendment, by striking out all after the word "Africa," and inserting in lieu thereof, the following; "and theGeneralAssembly shall t;y such appropriate legislation as maybe consistentwith the Constitution oftthe United States, discourage the emnig,ration of the free black population of other States, and territories, of the Uniion into this State." Mr. LAWRENCE demanded a division. The quest~ion- then being on striking out all after the word "Africa," Mr. HOLMES demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 39, nays 58, as fol lows: been condemned by the peo ple-t o disinter it, from the grave to which it has been so properly consigned, and to impart t tit vitality, by the life giving power of a new Conistie/ion. But sir, the effort will be vain. Whether you inovesot this proposition with the dignity of a fundamental law, or place, it in your statute Book as an act of ordinary legislation, it will b e alik e inope rative and des;)ised. I do not knibw, indeed, but that even with this pro vision inserted iLI it, this Constitution might be adopt ed by t he people, not b ecause the proposition itstif, has any intrinsic m eri t, n or b ecause it is regarded with any favor-t tut b ecause the Constitution will contain so many provisions that th e pe ople do des ire, that a majority of them nay be swillin g to accept it, even at th e expe nse of givitog l ife, to a principle like this. But sir, what will b e the practical effe c t of the res olution, if the prorosed amendment prevails. In ten counties yoa w t,l find more th an half th e colored pop Slation of the State. The countyof Hamilton alone, contains about one seventh of our entire colored pop ulation-and now sir, we are asked to provide for the taxation of all th he people o f th e State, to enable her to get rid of thern. Sir, the proposition is conceived in the spirit of i ejustice, and ought not to b e entertained for a moment. Let the people of Hamilton county, attend to their own colored popula tion, and not atteminp t to evade the moral responsibility which rests upon them, to do thesepeopl e good, anld to labor for their elevation, by taxing other counties of the state for their removal. Sir, I will not dwell upon the injustice, and impo-e icy of the measure before us, but I must b e allowed to say that I do not at all concern in the remarks made this morning by the gentlema a from Holmes. I have no respec t, sir, for that friendship for the c ol ored people, whose professions of regard are followed by acts of injustice, n or do I hold in much respect, tha t philanthropy, w hich occupie s itself in practising the attitudes of iumanbity, and when t he l egislatio n of the S tat es upon our bord er, stim ulated to the height of injusti ce, sllal drive these people from their midst, w ould counsel us to respon d t o oth em with legis la tion, as iniq uit ous a s their own, and crush these niserable fugitives and outcasts, who have been guilty of no crime but tha t of being unfortunate, between the upper and th e n e ther mill stone. B ut, sir, admitting the prop o sed policy to be wise and just, what is the nec ess ity for enforcing it by corIstilutiontal prov isions? We have al re ady conferreH tipont he General Assem bly., ample power to deal with this subject, and to pass such laws in relation to it, as t he people may demand. This, it appears to me, is all that the case requires. I am not to be understood, sir, as be ing in favor of this species of legislation, but I am willing to leave this m atter where it was left by the old constitution, with },eGeneral Assembly, and to let them, when the people see a necessity for legislation upon the subject, act in accordance with the will of their conslituents. But, sir, while there is no ascertained evil to grapple with, there is no call upon us, to force such a provision into the constitution. We all wvell know that there is a great diversity of opinion among the people of the State, reselecting every measure affecting the people of color. This M~r. President, is a practical question, and musts be met like all other practical questions, in a spirit of conciliation and compromise. I have no desire to perpetuate, in this instrument, the sympathies of one portion of the people, or the prejudices of another. But, sir, it is w~ell understood that the people of the northern part of the State are utterly opposed to any sulch provision,and if you insert it~you may depend on Y.As —Messrs. Archbold, Barnett of Preble. Blair, Case o Hocking, Case of Licking, Clhaney, Ewing, Farr, Green o' Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan, I-eGderson, Holmes Hootmani, Johnson, Jones. Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Lou. don, Mitchell, Patterson Peck, Quigley, l,eemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smitlh of Wyandot, Stidger, Struble, Vance of Butler, Wlson, Wortllington and President-39. .NAis-Messrsn, Andrews, g arbee, Barnet of Montgomery. Bates, Bernnett, I-,lhkensderfer. Brown of Athens Brown of Carroll, ( hambers, Collings, Cools, Curry, Cutler, Ewart Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gras, Greene of Defiance Hamilton, flawkins,Henderson, Holt,Horto,n, fHumphrevill, Hunt, Hunter, King,..arst, Lawrence, MNanrio, Mason, More. head, Morris, Mc:loud, Nash, Norris, Ortoni, ()tis, i ergins Raniney Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, S,ith of War' ren, Stanbery, Stanton. Stebbins, Stillwell, Sticliney, Swan Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Star}{, Tow,n hend, Warren, WilliamLs and Woodbury-58. I i I 604 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TtIURSDAY, FEBRUARY, 13. So the amendment to the amendment was re- tion for any man seriously to thitnk of introducing jected. into this Constitution; and if it was proposed to an The question then being on the amendment of Mr. thorize the General Assembly to deal with the properBLICKENSDERFER. ty and the debts of a farmer in this'w7ay, no man Mr. HAMILTON demanded the yeas and nays, would countenance the idea for a tmonient. Its effect which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 26, nays 71, would be so atrocious as to cor)oratious, that no one as follows: would desire to vest in the G,,neral Assembly any ,.As-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery sc power over existing charters. Barnett of Preble, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, (ham. It is not a question then, whether this power of rehers,C(ilings, Ew;nig, Gillett, Harlan, Hlitchcock of Geauga, peal should be qualified or not. It shlould be qualiHolt, Hunt, Larsb, Mason, McCloud, Reemelin, Scott of fled and put upon terms and conditions. What shall Harrison Smith of Wyarren, Smith of vyandot, tilwell,stion Stidger, Struble, Williamns and WVorthington —26. Stidger, Str5lble, Williams and Worthington-26. be the terms atnp conditions? That is the question; NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, )lates, Blair, Brown of Carroll, and the one upon which there has been u difference of Cahill, Case of Mockling, Case of Licking, Chaney, ('ook opinion on this side of the Hall; aId members here Curry, Ciutler, Ewart. Farr, Florence, Forbes, Graham, Gray, lhae been denounced because they coul!d not agree G;reene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg. Groesbeck, Hat with other m embers as to the, terms and quificatiens ton, [lard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, with other members as to the terms d quaifications -iolmes, Hootman, Horton, lumphreville, Hunter, Johnson on which the re~:ocation of existing charters shall be Jones, King, Lawrence,aril Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon exercised by the Legislature Manion. Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, Nash, Norris, (Orton, How shall it be qualified? I thint sir that honest Otis, Patterson,- Peck, Perkins, (uigley, Raniey, Riddle, H s Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, St and intelligent men may fairly differ upon that quesbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Swan, Taylor, Thomp- tion. s on of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance ofl But before discussing these terms and qua'ifications Butler, Warren,Vilson, Woodbury and President-71. I desire to say a word as to what is a franchise for So the amendment was rejected. there has been something of a fog thrown around the Mr. EWART moved to further amend the report, word. The right of way is a franchise' the right to by striking out of section 33, as amended, the fol- force a road, whether plank, rail or turnpike, tlrougsh lowing: the land of another without his consent, is a fran "And that acts of incorporation or corporate frau- chise. It is a right which caneot be exercised by a chises, privileges, or immunities, whether granted by citizen, without a special grant, and whten you repeal any general or special law, shall never be deemned a charter you divest the corporation of this right of contracts or irrepealable." way or franchise. The right to take toils on a road is Mr. SWAN moved to perfect the words proposed to a franchise. It cannot be exercised by ciiizens genebe stricken out, by striking out the following, "that, rally, and it is vested in a corporation by its charter; acts ofincorporation or corporate franchises privileges and when you repeal the charl ter vota take away this or immunities, whether granted by any general or franchise. The use of the property belonging to a special law shall never be'deemed contracts so irrepeal- corporation for the period mentioned in its charter is ale," and inserting in lieu thereof, the following: also a franchise; and all the l ights growi'ig up under, "All laws now in force creating private corpora- and incident to the use of the pioperty are fiantionis may be altered, revoke or repealed, whenever chises; and when you repeal the ch arter you also take the public welfare shall require it; that just an(d eq- away these incidental rights and the use of the prouitablecompensation, to be assessed bya juryas ill perty. othler cases, shall be made for any property of such l I return now to the question, what shall be the rule corporation, taken injuredor destroyed thereby, and as to the repeal of charters now existi. What, in paid in such manner as may be provided by law." other words, is the honest ruile? Let u' see, in the The question being on the amendment, first place. haow the committee oii tLe Legislative de Mr. SWAN said. The amendment that is propos- pertinent have provided for it. In tile words to be ed is predicated on the power of eminent domain. 1 stricken out they have proposed to vest in the Gene suppose all property and the incidents of all proper- ral Assembly the unlimited, full, andi unqualified ty, and all rights are subordinate to that power. It power of repeal. And how do the guard a d protect jarovides simply for corporations now existing, and not the property of the stockholders? Thly provide that if tot corporations that may be hereafter created. I do the property of a corporation is taken foa the use of the not offer this amendment because I desire any pro- State it should be paid for. But suppose that the visiolas in the constitution of this State, as to exist- General Assembly should not choose to take the proing corporations. I did not suppose that I came here perty for the use of the State? Nothing is to be paid; either to legislate upon that subject, or to make any nor is it to be taken for the use of the State, unless provision in the constitution in regard to it; but this the public welfare imperatively requires it. Let us question has been dragged in here, and as there has I see how this will operate, if tlhei use of the property is been a misinterpretationi in regardto the votes of some taken from the stockholders andl ts valtue thus degentlemen, on this side of the Hall, I desire to make stroyed by a simple and unqualified repeal of the charmy mark upon it ter. Suppose itto be a railroad conip-any, what upon I had occasion a few days ago to state what unqual. such repeal becomes of the road? The stocltholders ified repeal was; tl at it was to a corporation, precisely hlave lost the use of it; they have lost the right of what civil death is to an individual; that to a stock taking tell; they have lost the right of tway and the holder in a corporation,it was exactly like a law which S ate doaes not choose to take the property into its should declare and enact that a farmer's farm-paid for possession for its cown use. The property is thus and conveyed to hlim by deed, should be transferred to gone, and there is no compensatioo wli-ite'er under the person trom whom he receit ed his deedt; that his the 36th section or asiv other section of the article. cattle, and stock, and utensils, and crops should be This is, in fact, as if the law should authorize a man transferred to the State of Ohio, and that the debts to take his neighbor's horse and fiav it-skuin it alive wthich he owed and the debts which were due to him -and then throw back the hide atid the (lead carease, should all be cancelled. Such undoubtedly, is the le- saying to tle ownerof the horse, "tike your property, gal effect of unqiaalified and simple repeal to the I do loit want it-I will not use it, niay it do you stockholders of a corporation. Sir, tlae unqualified mnuch good." repeal of existing charters is too atrocious a proposi The provision of the Committee on the Legislative 605 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THIURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. Department, which is claimed as just when the act Mr. IIUMPHREVILLE (interrupting.) You do not of incorporation is repealed is as follows: "Private state my proposition correctly. property shall ever be held inviolate and no private Mr. SWAN. I know there is a flourish of words property whether he'd by individuals or corporations about such "equitable disposition," &c, as the General shall ever be taken forpublic use unless the public good Assembly may think proper. But I state the proposi imperatively den-ands it, but in all cases full and aed- tion fairly. If you sold the property did you intend to quate comrnpensation shall be first made," &c. transfer to purchasers the use and incidents of that What was the understanding of stockholders when property as it was formerly held by the repealed cor po~ation? Certainlv not —for then you would only these charters were granted, and under which theyou would on transfer the corporation and property from the stock were induced to vest their property? It is shown by holder the pr on d oet fo e o the uniform decisions of our courts. My reasons for he to other persons? Did ou itend to dipoe oni ~ a former occasion ~ ~the decisions of the u property by transferring the corporation and pr,op citing on a former occasi the decisions of the su- lety to the stockholders? Certainly not. In either preme court and the courts of the several states as to the power of repealting charters, were these. It h;d case you would effect nothing The proposition waa been stated by thegettlen from Trubll that ter to repeal the charter and thus to divest the stockhold wasb cosiderable authority" going to showT thatcter- ers and the property itself of the use to which the was "considerable au thori-ty " g)i ng to show that chiar ters could not be repealed. lThe gentleman would property was applied and then dispose of it stripped of the use,dsoldo l t elvle have been more correct in saying the Supreme Court the use, despoiled of all Its real value. of the United States and the courts of every state in Permit me to illustrate what I mean by all that I the Uio ee whom the qesti had arisen an have said on thissubject, and in away which will make the Union b~efore whom the question had arisen andie me understood by every gentleman in and out ol this who se decisoiis have been reported, wheig ad d demos hall. Suppose a neighbor of mine has a mill site be cratic judg,es indiscriminately, have decided the ques- low my farm and which lie cannot convenillty use tion one way, and had all determined that charters ar me velint without digging a race through my far,,. He allplies~ contracts, and could not be repealed. I mentioned this to digging a race through my far. He upplies tinot only for the purpose of correcting the gentleman to me for the privilege, the special privilege of dig from Trubull, but principally to Show that der ginig his race through my land. I give the privilege, from Trumbull, but principally to show that under siuaii,hwvr htlesalhv tfrtet these decisions the General Assembly had sufficient stipulating, however, that he shall have it for twenity reasons for believing, and the stock holders had also only, and that he ill. never charge more ite a certain toll at his mill. My neighbor on the fatith sufficient reasons for believing, that they could not be of this ol a mll ig te f repealed-that they were contracts, and that the Le- unde rstanding, builds a mill and digs the race through my farm. One year after he h~as thus ex gislature could not ilnt rfere with their property or its tr h m a t h h e pended his moniey, I say to him, "Sir, I revoke and(' use during the period for which tile charters were pne 19mle,Ia ohm"i,Irvk n use during the — period for which the charters were'repeal your privilege-true you were to have the privil grauted. Under the sanction then of these decisions ege fur graded.Undr te siicionthe ofthee dci~ODSege for twenty years and -you have invested your moe-. of the courts, with this understanding and belief on e. twenty years and yot have invested your mou the part of the General Assembly and they in the mill on that understanding, but I shall fill up the latte or have invral Assembly and their property in existing tle race to-morrow." With what scorn and contempt cors, the latter have invested their property in existing would every mnan look down upon me! The v,ry corporations. Cannot gentlemen perceive that it is a convicts in the Penitentiary would rise up in judgrien: breach of good faith, and a violation of this under- a nt e n ould i ustif cu aainist me. And could I justify my conduct, or standing to repeal these charters, whether thie courts w oul d it change the views of my neighbors as to my were right or wrong in their decisions? For this tea- honesty if I should say t o my neighbor s did not, ior son, if for no other, nothing but the public welfare and d id y ou suppose whe gra nted you the privilege that a just and equitable compensation ean justify a breach I could revoke it, and you have b uilt the mill on the of that undierstanditng. Examinie thesedecisioons of the faith that you had the privilege for twenty years. courts-and then loo(k into the charter of a corpora- But I am advised by my irieds from Knox an( tioa in whichl the stockholders are granted lhe priv Iaadise-ym rldsfo ro n tion in wi-icl the stokholders are granted ther privi- 1Trumbull, that the Courts are all wrong in their decislege of using their property in the way therein pro- ions, and that I can revoke when I please-and so, I vided for a fixed period-trace out thie investment of "Irevoke." citizens in the corporations, under the belief thatthteire oe er Now, there is not a maii in this Hall that would be property and its use as provided in the charter could osh isnt a this an yt l not be inivaded by legislative enactment-observe that guilty of such dishonesty as this; and yet I feel as though I was called upon to authorise and saiietion the Geaeral Assembly so understood it, tha8t the tog a aldUOlt uloie n a( the General Assembly so unders tood it;that the j tba the doing of something very like it, when I confer onl stock holders so understood it, that the j'idicial tribunals of the country so understood it-Nowv does it change the General Assembly the power of repealing exising ofbluthe cun tsof uo od i- does nt e c harters, when not required by the public welfare, and the que stio n of good fai th, does not the fact of the un- where ajust and equitable compensation is not made. rierstandiog between the state and the General Assem- n But let nie pursue this illustration a little further by bly, rermaiti, and have you gainted one step to justify a applyitg to it the p roposition of the gentlemn from violation of ttis understanding by saying that tile de- Meaitta, wh ich was defeated by twelve democratic cisionsof the courts are wrong and that you have and therefoure will exercise the power of repeal, and trpvotes. Suppose my neighbor, after I have revoked his ther oe ese the r properly. And ri privilege and filled up the race, proposes to leave thi the.stockihold,ers of the use of their property. And if loemtetoajroftevmeiIojc I you desire thus to violate the understanding, where the matter to a Jury of twelve men I obet-I stockholders alive committed no breach of their char- say to him: "that is not right. I cannot trust themstockholders have committed no breach of.their chiar- but this- i will do, and if you refuse -vou are not hiotter-for it is to these cases only that you wish to appl but this will do, and if you refuse ou are not lthis power-wd,hat terms would be right under these est. I will dispose of your mill without the race, as I circumstances, and what terms have been proposed to mav think just and equitable, and direct thw yo settle the rights arid interests of the stockholders? debts, contracted for building the mill shall be paid; and if you wont do that, I denoutice you as no dent The propositioti of the gentleman from Medina (the crat." vote upon which by twelve demo:,crats has been the subject of so much remark itn and out of this hall,) Sir, wha t is the common saying of the men of hard was this: repeal an existing charter, and let the Gene. O "-a sim t higher and ps an ah co ral Assenibly atsrosE of the property and provide for, BANS"a the payment of the debts as they please. Sell it, and- wen morality of the law. Do they induce a neig!ibcsell what?: to invest his property, on the faith of their word, anll I then violate that word to the injury of that neighbor. 606 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 1'3. and refuse "just and equitable compensation." claimed the right to take propertyv w ihout conpen It would not change my views upon this subject a sation' that would alwavs be a inon:t tinjust fi:ble particle, if every court in the Uliion had, on the first public act. But he insists that we are urging that Monday of December last, deternmined that former de- tiis wicked act should be done, and so do all the cisions were all wrong and the General Assembly had opposers of this doctrine upon the othleir side. the power to repeal existing chartels. Po-wer,:Now, I aflirr that no mienbecr upon lilts floor has right, is one thing-right, honesty, is another. Con- ever advocated that doctrine; but we cla-in to stand eeo the power to repeal existing charters, this would up here simply as the advocates of justice and right. iot induce me to violate the understandiiig between the We stand here and plead in behalf of an injured peegeneral assembly and citizens who invested their proper- ple. We claim, simply, that when tle(e companies ty in them on the faith of that understanding,unless the of wealthy menel become iiuriou, tlit then their public welfare required it, nor unless just and equitable right and power to continue to do so should be taken compensation were mnade. This view has guided me away from them. ia every vote I have heretofore given and it will guide The gentleman desired me t,o answer this question. nie in every vote hereafter. Would you authorize the taking away of the farm of Iii making these remarks, I impugn neither the me- your neighbor, without compensation? I might antives nor the integrity of any gentleman on this floor. swer that question by asking him the same question There are members of this convention who differ' with in a negative formi. Would you not authorize the mne upon this question, for whose integrity and honesty taking away of your neighbor's farm, if, upon a fair I have the most sincere and the highest respect. I trial, it should be found that he was making his farm claim for myself no more and no less honesty of pur- a public nuisance? Aye, sir, he would not only take pose than I award to them. But, from perversity of away a man's farm, but even his liberty and his life, mind, or from looking at this question from a different for the samne or similar reas ons without thinking of point of view fromnt what I do, we wholly differ and the matter of compensation. And the gentleman miust continue to diff-r. would take these upon precisely the same principle ''he geatlenian from Knox says there is no difference that we advocate the taking of those charters. between repealing existing charters and one which mnay Will the gentleman say that I have ever claimed be hereafter granted with an express constitutional pro- that the Legislature should, maliciously and capvision in it that it may be repealed. I think there is as tiously, take away the property of a corporation withmnuch difference as between right and wrong-between out compensation, anid without any justifiable cause? light and darkness-between keeping faith with your Will hlie refer to the ease where I have advocated the neighbor and breaking it. taking away of the charter of a corporation whlich vWe are not here passiog laws like a General Asseic- wvas iiot irnjurious? Ile cannot do it, sir. It is only bly who mnay adopt an unjust principle which will have because many corporations are iinjurious that I wi.;sh a temporary effect and leave no lasting traces of a breach to invest the Legislature with power to suppress them. of good faith But we are here endeavoring to utter in I stand upon the same principle which upholds the enldurable words the voice of the public conscience. existing laws of the land. I would conifer the power Thiat voice siould enunciate principles as pure and to take charters upon the same principle that the just as the mandates of God. Shall it sanctioni bad courts now take from a man his mill property or his taith-shall it authorize the property of citizens to be farm, if their occupancy and use should turn out to be injured or destroyed withoutj ust eom-.ensation, and in inijurious to the community. I have known a case violation of the understanding betweenii those citizens where a gentleman had invested upwards of forty anrd the State. No principle like this shall be announ- thlousaid dollars in the contstruction of a mill, and ced in the great charter oi our rights by my vote. upoin complaint being made that the 1pool which he lhe question then beiing on the amendment, had created was injurious to the health of the neigh Mr. N ASH demanded a division. ibohood, a verdict was rendered against him, and the lihe question then being on striking out the follow- iext day an order of the Chancellor was issued for lng words:'that acts of incorporations or ilicorpo- the deniolition of thie dam. And where, I ask the rate franchises, privileges, or immunities, wheteder gentlerman from Franklin, [Judge SWAN,] ill this case, granted by any general or special law, shlall never be was your provision for remunerati(in to the owner? deemed contracts, or irrepealable." The PRESIDENT [interposing,] iilnorined the getntle Mr. LARWILL moved that the Convention ad- man that it was out of order to speak of members by journ; name. WYhich was disagreed to. Mr. MITCHELL. I beg pardoii, Mir. President, Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I protest against the and I -ask the gentleman's pardon, if he takes any gentleman misrepreseiting me,as an excuse for not vo- exception to it. I confess, freely, that I was wrong. Ling for my propositionii, offered a white a!go by repre- But I will ask the gentleiaan from Franklin, or any senting that it conta;ned a provision that the State other genltleman, to stand up here and tell mue where should take the property of acorporation,wiulhout pro- there is to be found any provision of law for the cornmvision to make a just reinuneratioi, and also that the pensation of the owner of the property so destroyed? Legislature should provide for the payment of the Well, then, Mr. President, it is for the purpose of debts. Mly proposition contained neither'of these protecting the community against the encroachments provisions, but only that the Legislatue might make of wealthy men, who have obtained the power to do such a rule for the disposition of the property as public mischief, in an infinite degree more injurious, they mi h; see fit; vesting it where it equitably be that we desire to have them brought under the same longs, in such manner as they may- provide. rule. But when we desire nothing mcore than this, Mr. MIlTC(IELL. I am glad that this discussion ~ent1emen exclaim against it as aii outrage, and dehas been opened again by the gentleman from Frank- clare forthwith that the State must, pay them to the tn, [Mr. SWAN,] for he is the kind of a man which I utmost cent. They caltot be conipe;lled to cease like to meet, if we must have opposition. He has their oppressions and abandon their monopoliespredicated his opposition to the doctrine of uneondi- their power to do evil cannot be removed without lional repeal upon the ground that we claim for this paying these excellent gentleman to tile utmost exdoctrine what never has been assumed by its advo- tent of their investments. But the honest mill owner, cates. He is not authorized to say that we have or the honest farmer, who happens to have a cranberry 607 608 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TLIURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. to the charters of future corporations-if they are unconditionually repealed-stript of their property fromn motives of mere captiousness-does it make any difference in the perfidy of the act whether the char ter has already beenL granted or shall be granted here after? The outrage upon the rights and interests of the corporators or individuals holding the franchise is certainly the same in both cases; and I say to the gen tleman from Hamilton, [Mr. GROES.BECc,] that the State has no right to assail men in the legitimate and harmless exercise of their rights in the use of their propertv, large and valuable perhaps, and of a prosper ous business, and strike down and take it away from them, thereby making them beggars to-morrow. Sir, I will take their own cases and demonstrate that unconditional repeal prospective is as odious when practised upon innocent parties, as the same power could be when exercised retrospectively. It is not right to take property without cause, whether the State may have told the owner of the intention to do so or not. Nor is it right to take away municipal property in a captious way; still it has been repeatedlv told ue here that we may take away a municipal charter with out compensation-that even the charter of the city of New York might be taken in this manner to. morrow, even to the destruction of its nineteen millions of prop erty; but I would make an exception in these cases, According to the doct rine o f th e gentlema n from Frantk lin, when you take away a charter you strip the codr po ration of the power to take charge of its property be cause you destroy their artificial body. But now, Mt-. President, if it could have so happened that Do banks had ever existed in this country, yotu would never have heard any complaint about the doc trine of repeal; you could never have heard of the Dartmouth College case, nor of the case of the Planter's Bank of Mississippi. Neither would you have seen the spectacle of these eight or nine gentlemen of this (Convention torturing themselves, as they have donte upon this question. Having referred to these gentlemen, as eight or nine, I beg to explain what I mean. The gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. GIoOE,s-.EcK,] has at all times been in favor of repeal, but conceiving that cases of inljustice might arise in the exercise of this power he only de sires to see these provided against; that doate, I under stand him to be in favor of repeal. The gentleman from Franklin did not come here making any high claims to democracy, neither did the gentleman from Belmont, nor the gentleman from Coshocton, come here as partizans. But the residue of these men came here as loud mouthed democrats, and of them we_have right to complain. Them we have a right to reproach as renegades and traitors to the cause they were sent here to represent, to a confiding but deluded and be trayed constituency. Of these men onlv do I "omdlain, and I maintain we are one and all justifiable in thus doing so. Mr. ARCHBOLD next obtained the floor, speaking against the amendment, and definingg his positioni uipton the whole subject, to the close of thie f:l1otted twenty minutes. Mr. RANNEY proposed to amend the amendment of the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. SWaN,] by adNing at the end thereof the following words: *'And all corporations hereafter created, mlay be altered, revoked or repealed, at any time, by the Genetral Assembly, upon such just and equitable terms as they shall am proper." Mr. SWAN accepted the modification. Mr. VANCE of Butler. I have a fenw words to say on this subject before the vote shall be taken, andrea could desire to have a little mlore time than the twenty minutes allotted under the rule which -has, been swamp-if their property should happen to be a pub lic niuisance;it inimst be abated,no matter how valuable his mill nmay;- be —io matter how much he may realize from his yearly crop of cranberries-the pool and the swamp must be drained, and the cranberry roots left without a drop of water to keep them alive. No dif ference how great the injury, how utter the ruin of these men's hope-; and prospects, it must be yielded for the puiblic good, without compensation. Now, it is precisely upon this same principle that we propose to act with regard to corporations. We never proposes to take their charters unlefs the Legis lature shall be satisfied, in the exercise of a sound discretion, tnat they are injurious. Let us look at the case of a bridge company, where their bridge becomes dangerous, so that every man thinks it a g',-ea.t ouLtrage which the company are prac tisiog upon the communitv, yet if you undertake to stop them, by t ainag away their charter, you must pay them for it, eha? Sir, these companies of avari cious, wealil-i, abt w icked mnen, least of all, deserve the shield an i pi-otection of the law. But let iis see, for example, what we could specify against a bank. They realize an enormous interest upon their iinvest-nent; and this, to every philosophic mind, must be an eii, because it is known that this enormous interest in to be paid by the labor of the country. That itself is a sufficeait consideration to justify a demand for the repeal of every bank charte r in the country. I cannot nouw stop to make specifications; but, Mr. President, I might refer you to many banks whose officers have befen guilty in this why to such an ex tent of perifidy and outrage, that they ought to have been incarcerated in the penitentiary. But I cannot stop to array charges against this class of incorporations. I will mention another feature of evil, just beginning to develope itself in this country, in the operations of our railroad companies. These c, mpaniesu purchase fifty feet upon each side of their track, and take a release from the owners; and unless they have reserved some comrimoni right to get to the track, thev have no right to approach it without the consent of the company or corporation. And these corporationsi, availing themselves of this power, are begiinnin to develope a disposition to monopolize not only all the carrying business, kat all the produce dealing along their lines. I have a letter from a very intelligent Whig gentleman, thaet such is the case with the railroad comparnyv whose road passes through the town where I live. Arnd nownv I ask, if such is to be the resuit of granting a railroad charter, does it not call as loudly for suppression as the case of the umill dam, which I have recited? If the raising of an unhealthy stench in a ieighiboihood or if the noisy hammering upon an anvil, should be abated as nuisances, by the authority of our jiudicial tribunals, I do most respectfully submit, whether wve should not have somne authority to suppress every monopoly of trade? I ask the gentlemran from Franklin to come up and show me his justification for the rule of law which would take away ans injurious privilege in the one case, and allow it to be enjoyed in the other, unless fully paid for. f have a single word as to the singular-I will not say disrep.utable-distinction taken here with reference to existing charters, and unconditional repeal with reference to future charters. Gentlemeti tell us of cases of taking away charters of corperations which no just mind could approve of-of taking away the charters of individual compainies, whose charters have been granted ~before the exercise of this power was authorized. But now take the same cases with reference OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TURSODAY, FEBRUARY 13. passed in my absence. It will be impossible for me State, for myself, I am constrained to answer that this to do justice to the subject in that time; but I shall convention has no such power to confer. The Genenot undertake to go through with the whole subject in ral Assembly has now the power to repeal every act a regular course of review, arnd shall only endeavor of incorporation within this State. I have admitted to touch upon sonme of the most prominent points, by this power from the beginning of the discussion of way of reply to one or two of the arguments which the question now under consideration. I have herehave been presented by gentlemtnen in opposition to tofore said that the Legislature may take from the citthe side which I have taken upon this question. izen his real and personal estate, and may appropriate And first, let me say that if we read the thirty- the same for the public welfare. But how can this third and thirty-sixth sections, of this report of the power be exercised? It may be exercised upon two committee on the Legislative Department, together, I conditions. First, that the public welfare demands amrn disposed to think, and have thought fromr the such a thing at the hands of the Legislature; and, time when they were first reported, they are in sub- secondly, that a just compensation shall be made for stantice and in legal and constitutional effect precisely the property so taken. equivalent to a provision which I had the honor of If, then, the Legislature have the power to take offering wlhenii this subject was under consideration away the real and personal property of the citizen some three or four weeks since. And the only objec- whenever the public welfare requires it, they have tion which I could have to these sections is that they also the same power, whenever the public welfare reare calculated to deceive; and in order to secure my quires it, to take away any charter in the State of vote it will only be necessary that their language be Ohio upon like conditions-upon the requisition of made a little i,,)re explicit and plain. the public welfare, and upon the payment of a just If a charter shliould be repealed under the provis- compensation for the property so taken or destroyed. ions of these sections, and property should be sacri- This is the whole question. As to the question ficed without a just compensation, and if the injured whether a franchise is property, I will touch upon that party should go into a court of justice for damages, if I have time, before I close. the court lust, necessarily decide upon these provis- But here let me say that the provisions of the Conions in accordance with the constitution of the Uni- stitutionI of the United States are necessarily parated States. And hence the decision must be in all mount to any provision we can insert in this Constisuch cases where the franchise could not be separa- tution, and paramount to any law of the General Asted from the pro)perty without imrupairing iii value, or semubly of the State. From this provision we cannot destroying the pi-opcrty, that to exercise the power of escape; and we never should undertake so to do. repeal conistitutioially, a just compensation must be If it had not been for this question of repeal, I supmade to the ownler. Believing this, from the first, I pose there never would have been that difference of have been williing to sustain these two sections, but opinion with reference to thile provisions of the Federal at the same time I am cominpelled to insist that they Constitution between gentlemen upon this floor, should be so amenicded as to apprize the people fully which has developed itself day after day and timue afof the effect of them; and especially that the General ter time in this discussion. There are two provisions Assembly in the exercise of the power of repeal, may of the Constitutioii of the United States which bear not be rmisled by provisions of this constitution giv- I upon this subject; but I shall have tine to touch uping rise to a diffeirenrice of opinion touching the con- on only one of them, which is the following: structionr of these sections. "No State shall pass any ex post facto law, or law Here is the only objection which I have to these impairing the obligation of contracts." provisions. We are called upon to provide that the I need not explain to my prolessiotial brethren what egislature shall have the power to repeal all char- is meant by all ex post facto law. But no State shall ters, just as far as they may lee,i the exercise of that pass any law imrpairing tiie obligation of contracts. I power to be advisable. And here let me mnake this know that the question will be put to me here, whether inquiry: Caiii this Convention conifer upon the Legis- I consider a charter granted by the Legislature of the lature any power with reference to the subject of the State to be a contract within the meaning of this prorepeal of charters which that department of the gov- vision of thile Federal Constitution'? This question I ermninent does ii(t already possess? Genrtlemen seem- aui prepared to answer. But it will only be necessaed to have voted here upon the suppositionl that the ry for me to say here that whenever a grant shall have Convention hali authority 0o enlarge the powers of the been made by the General Assembly, and accepted by Legislature in T his particular. But this I deny. All the party for whose benefit the grant was so made, and the power which this Convention can exercise, is but property is vested under the grant, as soon as the the power which they have ieceived at the hands of property is so vested under the grant or franchise, the the people. Of course then this body cannot claim law of contract applies, and consequently the provis. to exercise powers not reserved to thie people in the ions of the.Constitution of the United States apply. constitution of the United States. They are entrust- Therefore such grants cannot be repealed unless coined with the power of framning a constitution for the peusationi is male for the property inmpaired in value State. That is simply all the power theyhave. Then or destroyed by virtue of the act of repeal. I am let me inquire whether the Legislature, being the law speaking in reference. now, to existing acts of incormaking power, is not vested with all the power which poration, not as to those that may hereafter be granted the people have reserved to themselves for the pur- -for as to such, I admit the power in this Convention pose of making laws for the State? If this be true to fix the terms upon which future grants nay be then it is nonsense, and worse than nonsense, for this made. body to talk about increasing the powers of the Le- This is the doctrine laid down by the Supreme Court gislature. of the United States, and by the courts of all the It will be admitted that this Convention may cur- States of this Union, so far as these courts have been tail the powers of the Legislative Department, but called upon to settle any question of this kind. Is it when gentlemen bring us to the iuquiry as to wheth- not, therefore, too late now for gentlemen to allow er this body can confer upon the General Assembly themselves to disregard these solemn aecisions? power over existing charters anid acts of incorpora- Is there anv thing unjust or iuequitanl)e in these detion, which that department cannot now exercise un- cisions? Any thing imio'e than a principle for the proder the provisions of the existing constitution of the tection of honest and innocent property holders from 609 1OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURS-AY, FFIIRARY 13. sacrifice and loss by the action of the law making ditional repeal, so far as the proposition relates to power? Why then, should we not uphold and support charters heretofore granted? them? What is to be understood by unconditional repeal? I claimn, therefore, that these decisions will be sus- First, I ought to say that this amendmnent will apply rained upon constitutional principles, as well as upon variously to different corporations. There is as much principles of honesty between Nian and man-between difference between the character of corporations as the government and the citizen. there is between the light of the sun at noon-day and I have not time, Mr. President, to elucidate these the darkness of midnight. There are corporations hve gecid which, by repealing their charter, you would affect principles, by a reference to the case put by t hei bttebr ge b ran t -which it might coltain. fr~~~~~~~~~~~oli liki,( wm)Htwthreadloiing but the bare grant which it might conltain tieman fronm Franklin, (Mr. SwA,..) B3ut with regard to the argument of the gentleman from Knox, (Mr. To this class belong banks, insurance, anid manufac 9 ~~~~~~~turing, companies, corporationis for commi-ercial pnrpo MITCHELL,) whenI he contends that the Courts have copanies, corporations for comercial pirpo the power to remove a neighborhood nuisance, because,ses, &c If you exercisethis power of repeal in rela of the public inconvenience and injury which it in- tioin to the charter of a bank, you take away nothing duces,of th one pb will deny the doctrine which he lays but their bare franchise. You leave all their property du ces, n o one will deny the doctrine w hich he lays to be divided amongst the share holders-theirbank down. But certainly no lawyer will undertake to ap- ing house —-their money —their securities —their ply this rule to a case arising out of the grant of a bonds notes, and such like propertyc Those are all charter by the law mnakinig power. Because it is not wortns as much after the charter is taken away as no tall applicable to sudH a case-and why is it not wrhjulst as much after the charter is taken awaya as not at all applicable to sucii a case-a nd why is it not they were before, and they are left to be divided applicable? A charter has been granted by the L^g-'lq wer bfrean thyarlettbedvd applicable? A charter has beei granted by the Leg- aamongst the stockholders. Nothing is, therefore, ta islature to a company of men for many purposes, aid ken away sav e, the franchise. conferring certain privileges and powers.'This being e aa ae e nch done such a charter is afterwards accepted by the corn- [The PRESIDENT'S hammer here indicated that pany, and property is invested under its provisions, so the gentlemain's time had expired, but by unanimous that it is impossible for such property to be separated consent he was permitted to proceed ten minutes lon from the tranchlise without impairing or destroying its ger under the rule prescribing that length of time for value. Anid here the question arises whether the the second speech upon the samne propositioln.] granting power can resume such a charter without I was going on to say. Mr. President, that such is compensation for the property so destroyed. the case with insurance companies and manufacturing Let us compare this case with that which has been companies, &c, that their property is worth just as stated here, of the individual who erected a mill dam 1 omuch after their franchise is talken away as it was be stated here, of the individual who erected a mill dam, fore. But there is another class of corporations in our which became a public nuisance. Under what author- State, iii relation to which the exercise of the authori ity did this individual erect his dait? l)id he proce ed ty contemplated in this provision would have a very in this matter, under the authority of those who were d ty contemplated in lltis provision wlould have er subsequently injured by his work? Certainly he did iffcret effect I allude to all corporations for inter - nal impd ovement purposes. Suppose the Legislature not. He proceeded wholly without their authority in sh ould repel th e charter of I turnpike road company the wolk of erecting his dam, whereby fie did a pub. or a company for the construction of any sort of a lic injury to the neighborhood, and consequently the road, wha t i to becom e of the property of such a neighborhood had a just right to go into Court and de-. com anys it to be divided am ongst the stock mald ha ths n~rius l~sace stou,; ief erte |company- Is3 it to be divided amongst the stock lmaud that this injurious *uisance sh ould be abated lers? Or what is there left of it when their fran Lot us state a case in point.I e chise is gone from them for ever? Gentlemen upon We will take the case of the erection of a mill dam, the other side tell us they do not propose to take away where the privilege is not granted by the law making the property of a company; but when we come to look power; but we will suppose a case where all the at the effects of this proposition, it is plain that, to neighborhood interested and to be affected thereby, take away the firanchise of a road company is to deshaving ample power in themselves, shall make a grant troy the value of all the property of such company. to the mill owner of the privilege of erecting his It is to take away its availability whatever may have mill; and suppose the grantors afterwards stand by been the cost of construction. The cost of construcsilently while the owner proceeds to expend his thou- tioni may have reached the sum of five millions ofdolsands upon the erection of his mill. But, so soon as lars, as in the case of some of our Railroads. Thus the mill is completed, let us suppose the grantors to we have the case of the Legislature and the people of turn round and say to the ownier of the mill: "Sir, the State standing by and seeing such a company your mill is a nuisance, and we will take back the vesting this large sum of money in the construction of grant which we have made to you for its erection." a great commercial avenue, and then when it is comNow I put the question to gentlemen to say whether pleted, turning round and exercising this power of the grantors have the right so to do, unless they make repeal-taking away the entire value of five millions compensation to the owner? I answer they certainly of investment, but at the same time taking no propercould not. And this would be a parallel case. ty for the use of the State, but leaving to the stock Then I assume the ground that where the grant of holders the rails and the timber to be divided amongst a charter is made voluntarily and after it has been ac- them or to be used for any other purpose, if the comcepted by those for whose benefit it was intended, pany will take them up from their foundations and and after property has beei vested under its provis- sell them for any price which they may command. All ions, and the moment property has been so vested. the pro ceeds of this immense outlayof money is thus that moment the law of contract applies: that mo- to be swept away by two or three lines in the statute ment the provision of the constitution of the United book! Such would be the effect of this provision if States applies; and that moment the owner or owners it were not for the intervention of a power paramount of the property are protected by that consti'ution; and to our State Conistitution. there is no power in the United States, so long as We affirm, sir, that these stockholders are protect the constitution of the United States shall renmaui the ed by the courts of the United States, and thatrneithsir supreme law, as it now is, that can take away such this conveition, nor any other power of the State can property from the owner or owners, unless a just sacrifice the power of the ta can comupelisation be returned therefor. Thlis being the oarifc the property beloinging either to corporations chowmart we to dispose of the question o r inidividuals, unless the public welfare require it, fact, usicon- and a just compensation is paid therefor, I speak now 610 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUAaY 13. that kind of a provision, then I care not what els you do. I take this view; that no wicked, or corrupt, or deceived Le-gislature should be allowed to bind an ir repealable burthen upon the people for all time to cone. I take the ground, that it is to give to the Le gislature the power to take away all our rights, when we assert that one Legislature may pass an act which o 10 succeeding Legislature shall have the power to re peal. But gentlemen in the examples which they give, speak of nothing but rail road charters, andt turnpike charters. But let me say to these gentle men, that there was a charter lately granted to acom pany in Tiffin, which is now being exercised for a different purpose from that for which it was granted, and of whlicli, I presuitne, no gentlem-nan will say it ought not to be repealed, because they are not exer cising their legal powers. And it is this class of char tertos, thatwe desire to reach by this principle of re peal. We talte tbe gr ound tteat n o LeeissTattire would ever repeal the charter of all honest corporation- uthat th e General Assemdbly wou ld never repea l the charter of a turnpikie company, or a railroad company, so long a s e o they e re doing thei r duty. But these examples and illunstrations of gentlemen have alwavs bee n m ade for the purpose of ldiv erting our attention from the true and only real point in this issuie. They are continually inducing usll to follow some nis fatuus, which they are able to th row oTvt in the shape of innocent corporations. These gentle men are like the cattle fish which, when pursued by its enemies has the capacity of throwing off a dark fluid which muddies the water in its rear so as to en able it to escape.'I'lTat is precisely my opinion of what gentleman are doing, when they are holding up to our view the injuries which may be inflicted by tJle adoption of our proviso, upol the stockholders. of innocent turnpike and plankroad companies, amongst which some of them are able to refer to so may oppressed widows anti orphans. The committee was told the other dav, bytlle gentle man from Geauga,(Mr. HircrIcocK,) and the gentleman from Belrnont, (Mr. KENz-O-',) that our object was to strike at bank charters and at other kindred corpora tions. Sir, that is as true as the sunll shines. That is our object, we have no fear that any railroad, plankroad or turnpike charter, will ever be disturbed at all. I do not look at what Chancellor Kent, Judge Sto(try, or any other judge on earth, has said upon this subject. I look only at what is right; I contend that the Legislature which shall succeed the present, will have just as mnuch power as any Legislatture which has ever been assembled in the State before it; and that one Legislature has no right to enact a law that a subsequent Legislature may not repeal. And I hold that the maln who does not contend for this doctrine is not the mnani who will be found willing,, to transmit to posterity unimpaired, that boon of liberty which we have received from our ancestors. Sir, I stalid here, prepared to go for these two sec. titans, just as they are. They contain no stringent provisionis. They are not stringent enough, for some of' mly friends around mle. Thlere are somre who wtanti to assert this power inl positive terms. But I am constent to provide for the time yet to come Insert these prov,isions in the organic la:7u, and I am willing to go for the amenadmnzlt of thle gentleman fromn Franklin, [Mr. SwaN,] with the amenldmenit of the gentleman from Trumbutl[, [Mir. RAtNFEr.] I am willing to go for these latter. boath together —but not for tile first, withon' the other. Genxtlemenl have talked about war against this con.s stirtlton. Sir, I t~o, wi'.l proclaim uacompromsiing war of acts of incorporations heretofore granted in this S8ate. I might sly the same of a bridge comrpany. Tthie act of repeal leaves all the property belon gig to the cordpay-h tiber and te sthe toner tae hpiers and the abutrngetse. The, act of repeal takes away onothiinag but the charter; but nine tenths of the value of the. al e o bridge is takien away fro m th e tihe stockholde rs, whilst nlotling is t,rkenr for the benefi t of the State. wrut, ill all such cases it is plain t th a t the State, though i t takes nothing to itself, does either take away from the stock holdters their property or destroy its value. Such is the effect of ther repeal. N ow, sir, wh en I f irst came into this body, the first thiufg timat I was required to do-even before I was permritted to take t biy se oft officially uleon the floor of tpois coryve.utiow-was to raise my hand and swetair that Iwould support the constitution opf trheUlited St tes. So, also, the v ery first thing I lisad to do the other day, when I was perm it ted t o come back again to the placea which I had a few days befo)re r(signed, was to raise imy satlnd tand take upon g l myself the sameo obliat ion. Well, sir, havi ng done this, I carnnot consent to give a single v ote, if I know it, tlhat sth i all be in violation of any provis ions of that sacred instrumenrt. I call t a sa- I cred instrument, b,catise the est ablis.shment of the pril) ciples which it contains has (cost the blood of many, a ecae i ass because it cas been handetd down to us by our fathers who have loing since passed from this stage of action; andh if th e re is not asother man in this State who will go with me, still I ami resolved to plant miiy slf upo n that cons itutiion, and there I will stanid and unfugrl my banner to the breeze,upom which there shall be inscrided the inviolability of the rights of private propert y. Afte taking a brief review of the argument which lie h ad p ass ed over; tr. V. sairc, in conclusion, thanche shiould vote for striking out atd inserting the aniend merit of the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. SWarN.] He w ould do this, becaus e e he bel ieved the amndment though not in the most desirable s hape, e mbraces the substance of what was intenIded by the conmmittee and desired by the p ole, in r ef erence to this subject. Mr. SAWYER. I ha ve no t sai d anythting on thisi question, of anry accounrt, since it was first agitated ig this body; and I wou ld n ot now say ar ythi v ere it not for the utter astonishment w ith which I have li stened t o the gentleman, who hay jMst now taken hiss sea t. I am at a e loss to urnderstaitin his position. I understand him to say, that the thirtythird and thirty sixth sections of this report, are right in principle. And I lhave understood him to make the samiie declaration before. I understand also, that he has made the samie kind of speech before his constituents. I understand him, also, to affirm that, au the time his constituents were instructing him to resign, and go hiomiie, t,ie democriats here, ill convention, were colncocting and prepariing the very same matter for which he had been coniten-ding. And now I cannot see how it is, that the genitieman an get up here, after these declarations, and acknowledg(.nements, and declare that he will vote for striki ng out this section. But this is a matter which he will have to settle with his own conscience. He has already settled the question with his constitulents. B~ut I desire that his conostitulents shall see how he votes here, and with whom he rotes. As regards myself, I came here inl the spirit of corn promise, and I am goinle to carry it out, in every thin~, except that I canno1t comrtn rmse a princple. I ask that there shall be enlgrzaftedraite this co~nstitution, some provision asserting the power of the Le — gislet.ufo~to repeal written charters; and I wvill not vote or any constitution that has not that kind of a provision in it,. Alter you shall have refused to enlgraft 40 611 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. upon this constitution, if you refuse to insert this principle. Sir, I look uponii this principle, as the cap-stone, or rather as the key-stone, which supports the grand arch of our system —and without this provision, I consider that the whole would not be worth anything. Mr. KING, by way of perfecting the words proposed to be stricken out, moved to amend, by inserting after the word "iunrnunities," the words "now, or hereafter." Mr' REEr.tELIN. It being understood, that I am the drafter of the section under consideration, ] ask the convention to hear me once more, upon this question of repeal. And. for fear that I may be misunderstood, once for all, I desire to declare, with all proper consideration for all who have spoken upon this question, that the man, whether here, or elsewhere, who asserts that the democrats who have voted, either for the amendment of the gentleman from Medina, or for this section, or for ROBERS ON'S proposition, are in favor of a propositioni for repeal, which would allow the State to take property wrongfully, an(l without compensation, asserts what is unqualifiedly untrue. I affirm that the 36th section, which secures all private property, by whomsoever held, was passed by our votes and our speeches, against the efforts of a portion of tthe twelve," acting in connection with many of our whig friends. And I say further, that the true friends of the rights of private property, are to be found amongst the radical democrats of this body. They are the advocates here, of the section which protects private property; they have made it more stringent, than any other constitution contains. We have fought and voted for this principle, of the inviolability of private property. The~y have read to us the constitution of the United States, that private property should ever be held inviolate, and that it shall never be taken without compensation, nor with compensation, unless demanded by the public necessity; and I ask, whether the 36th section of this report,does not use the samne terms as the Constitution of the United States, and whether the words in our colnstitution, do not mean the same as they do in the Constitution of the United States? On,. of the positions of the gentleman from Butler, (Mr. VANCE,) was, that the right of unqualified repeal e,isted in the Legislature, except so far as that power s as qualified by the Constitution of the United States. An)d this power of repeal, was qualified by that clause in the Constitulion of the United( States, wherein the inviolabillity of private property is secured. Now, I affirm, that the rule for the protection of private property, is far mnore stringent in our constitution, and in this report, than in the constitution of the United States, or of any of the States. The difficulty with the other gentleman from Butler, [Mr. KING.] seems to have originated in not being able to discriminate between a proposition coupling directly with the right of repeal, a clause in reference to property and he connects in his mind the sectioni thirty-three and the section thirty-six, which should really be regarded as separate. By having them separate we get clear from the construction, which b y coupling them, we labor under,-that to repeal is to take property, that the General Assembly must pay, if it repeal. iaffirm sir; that with the constitutional provisions we have reported, the State cannot take private property under any circumstances without compensation. Ther constitution of the United States protects private property and so does cur section, only ours does so more .ecurely; so that if we adopt a section for unqualified repealit will be qualified by section thirty-six, just the sameas the lst section is, which contains the unqualified legislative authority. I ~affirm therefore, that, the simple ~alked power o f unqualified repeal however u tnqualifie d it may stand in one sec tion, is modifie d and qualified b y other sections of the Constitution. It has never been clai med here that property could be taken without compensation. The protection embraced in section thirty-six has always been safe. When I drafted this section, I was in hopes that the anti-democratic doctrine —that a charter is a contract-would not be broached amongst us. For the true doctrine upon this subject has been asserted by many of the "twelve," and they dare not deny it. Even the gentleman from Butler, [Mr. VANCE,] before he resigned and went home, asserted, in his first speech upon this subject, that a charter was not a coiitract. I have that speech now ill my possession, and I will read. Mr. R. then read from page 193, "Ohio Convention Debates:" "Now, it mav lie a serious question, and one worthy of consideration, whether all the acts of incorporation passed by the General Assembly of Ohio are contracts. I do not believe they are. Some of them may be, and probably are, contracts; others, I know are not. It is my opinion that this provision has been too often misapplied in debate, if not in the decisions of courts." But now the gentleman comes back with a new construction, and says that when a charter becomes connected with property, then it becomes a contract. So that while he admitted the right of repeal, he could say that a charter was a contract, and therefore irrepealable. He is, therefore, truly and undeniably, an enemy to repeal. And to this ground must all be driven who shall vote now for striking out. Such will have to be the position of my friend, (personal, not political friend,) the gentleman from Monroe, [Mr. ARCHBOLD,] and neither he nor others call escape from the consequence. If this section is to be stricken out, then the repeal is defeated, for the amendment cannot be adopted; and at the door of these men shall be laid the sin of defeating all direct repeal clauses. I have been very much surprised and disappointed by the course now taken by the gentleman from Butler, [Mr. VANCE.] When I met himn in discussion upon this subject, a short time ago, at Westchester, he occupied the position which he has put down upon the paper in my hand, of which he was then distributing hundreds of copies amongst the people. I will real an extract. It is a document, headed, "~TO MY CO.NSTITUE.NTS," and was issued by the gentleman from Butler, [Mr. VANCE,] to his constituents, during the late contest in that county. ,"I will only say, in conclusion, that whilst I am assailed in Butler county for having spoken and voted my sentiments, (in Convention,) the committee, (the Legislative Committee,) before referred to, composed of a majority of democrats, have so amended the report under consideration, as to embrace precisely the provisions w,hich I, with others, had advocated from the commencement of the discussion. The two sections, which I have before quoted, were amended so as to read as follows: "The General Assenmbly shall bave power to p ass retroactive laws, or laws impairing the obligation,of contracts, provided, however, that acts of incorporation, or corporate franchises, privileges or immunities, whether granted by any general or special law, shall ever be deemed contracts, or irrepealable. "Private property shall ever be held inviolable, and no private property, either held by individuals or cor,Porations, shall ever be taken for piublic use, unless$ GJ2 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TIURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13. good imperatively demands; but, in all cases, full and ade quate compensation, in money, shall first be made to the owner or owners, to be assesse by a jury, and subject to no deductions for any benefits accruing to any property of the owner or owners." ' We cannot see any difference in the two propositions. They each comprehend the same subject matter, and each point out the same remedy and the same mode of applying the remedy. We cannot but regard the last legislative report, as an adoption of the principles set forth in Judge Vance's proviso' But now to-day the gentleman will be found voting to strikeout these provisions. I will state another fact. That gentleman before he left this Hall and wenta' home to the people, took a copy of them along with himi, read them to his people extensively, and told them that hlie was going to come back again and vote for them. Yea, he told Mr. SAW YER. that those provisions embraced all he wanted, and that they suited him exactly. This I state in the pre sence of both these gentlemnen, and it cannot be de nied. Mr. VANCEof Butler. (Interposing.) I denythe fact of having told any constituentofmine, that I was coming back to vote for these propositions. The PRESIDENT. The gentleman from Butler has not got the floor. Mr. REEMEL[N. Let men judge for themselves, after looking at the documents I have furnished. I have only a few words nmore to say. The proposition now under consideration, I hold to be almost as strong as the original propositioni of Mr. ROBERTSON. They co ntain the unqualified repeal-the lights of private property are also most amply protected here. I could have little or no objection to protecting pri vate properly in any reasonable way; but to do it here, in direct terms, and in direct connection with the re peal clause is to say, that to repeal a charter is to take property,-tbat is the very construction which I desire to avoid. I do not wish to cripple the people in their efforts to regain their freedom from the monopolies of wealth. All we have to do is to counteract the decis ion of the supreme court of the United States, and of th e courts of Ohio by quietly asserting the right of the Legislature to revoke or repeal any charter that is pass ed. I do not wish, by voting fol thie arneinudinent now before us, to invite new attacks upon our freedom and equality; I do not wish to give this atdvantage into the hands of our spoilers. Mr. L ARWILL moved that the Convention do now adjourn. Whereupon Mr. HAWKINS deman ded the yeas anid nays, which were ordered and resulted-y eas 45, Niays 56; as follows: YE,s-Messrs. Aniirews, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill Colings, Ewing, Gay. Gele of DelBann-et, Gr een o f Ross G'-egg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hende r so n, HitchHock o f Geauga Holmes, Holt, Hootmani, Humphreytilie, Hiunt, Jones, King Kirklwood, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, ie Nash, NTor is, Qouigley, I.iddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sid ith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Struble, Swan, Thompson,,of (Melby. Thomp son of Stark, Vance of Butler, Williams and Wiisioni-41. NsAYs-Messrs " rchbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery Barnett of Preble, B:,tes. Benn-ett, Brown of Athens, Brows; of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Liclking, C:,ambers, Chaney, Cook, Curry, (-utler, Ewart, Florence, Forbes, Gillet, Graham, Hamiltol, Harltn, faVils, Hitchcoec o." Cuy. ahoga, Horton, Hunter, Johnison, Larsh. Leadbetter, Loudon, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, Mo~rehead, Morris, lVlcCloud, Otis Pattersonl, Peck, Perkins, Ranhey, lReemelinl Scott of: Har: risonl, Sellers, Smith of H~ighlanld, Smith ozf'Warren, 8tanbery, St1antojn, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Taylor, W~arren, Woodbvury, W~orth-inlgton and ~ residenlt —56. So the Convenltion refused to adjourn. Mr. ARCHBOLD next obtained the floor but gave way, under the rude, upon a demand to be beard by --- Mr. STANBER~/'. I want to say a ferw words in reply to the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. REgalELmN.) Does that gentleman suppose we are so dull as to be the public good imperatively demands it: but in all cases an adequate compensation shall first be made to the owner or owners, in money, to be appraised by a jury, and subject to no deduction for any benefits ac vention by Mr. Sawyer, Mr. Reemelin, and the bal anc e of the Comm ittee, the very day on which I resigned. Who can doubt now, but that the constitutional gnar antee, that private property shall ever be held to be inviolable, i s a d emocr ati c measure The only diffi culty left with respect to the question, is, that my accusers progress more rapidly wvith the catechism of democracy, than wiser m en a re disposed to attempt to do. Had the y wa ited until Mess rs. Sa wy er and Ree melin reported, there would not have been the neces sity of passing s entenc e upon m e with out a hearing." But the gentleman, to-day, octcupies quite a different p os ition from that which he occu pied before the peo ple. He has ju st told u s, tha t h e will vo te to strike out the provision, just read, which, t o my mind, fully Justifies the charge, that he not only betrayed his people before, but that he is going to b etray them again. But to fasten the charge I now make, I will read f rom a democr atic paper in Butle r county, which ad vocated the election of Judge Vance, called the "Mi ami D emoc ra t. The pa per I read from, was issued on the eve of the election. It is h ea ded, -To the Polls." Mr. REEMELIN read: cRe member th atto-morrowis the day of the election. Re cmember that two worthy men a re now before you as can didatcs to the Constitut ional Convenbtion. Remember that Judge Vance and'Squ i r a he Clar k have e ach done good service in the demnocra tic ranks. Reinember a thatthel e is no material difperence in their political views." But apain, look at the f oll o rwing, wh ich I will also read. It is from the same paper, from which I read just now. It reads'That a full and perfect understanding may he had of Judge Varvce's proposition, andt the proposition now before the Con,vestillee, we re-pu blish so much of o ur article as relates to the two propositions 'The 35tl section of the report on the Legislative depart. merit, having been under consideration in the Convention, which read as fol'ows: "The General Assembly shall have no power to pass re tiroactive laws, or laws impairing the obligation of con tracts." 'Mr. Vance offered the following amendment: Provided, that all acts of incorporation, and acts grant ing franchises, may be altered, amendedl, revoked or repea ed by the General Assembly of this State, upon such terms and conditions pertaining to the inviolability of private property, as is provided in other cases in this Constitution." 'The condition referred to by the words "as is provided in other cases in this Constitution" is the 39th section of the same report, which had already been adopted, and which reads as follows: 6'Private property shall ever be held inviolate, and no pri vate property shall ever be taken for public use, unless the public Rood imperatively demands it; but in all cases, full and adequate compensation in money shall first be made to the ownel, to be assessed by a jury, and subject to no de. duction for any benefits derived to any property of the owner."1 'The foregoing, illustrates the proposition made by Judge Vance in the Convention. After his amendment had been discussed for some days, at the request of the legislative committee, the whole subject was again reftrred to them. Through Mr. Reemelin, chairman of that committee, they again reported, and the question of repeal is there set forth in the 33d and 36th sections of the report, as follows: "Sec. 33. The General Assembly shall have no power to pass retroactive laws, or laws imp~airing the obligation of contracts, provided, however, that acts ot inlcorporwationls or corporate franchises, privileges o: immuni~ties,whether grant. ed oy any general or special law, shall never be deemed contracts, or irrepealable." "tSec. 36G. -Private property shall ever be inviolate, and no private property, wheth. r held by individuals or corporations, shall ever be taken for public use, unless the public 6 t OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRrDAY, FEBRUARY 14. IHartford, Trumbull county, Ohio, upon thle subject of te-peralce; Whichl was referred to the Select Committee on the sulject of Retailing Ardent Spirits. Mr. HUNTER presented a petition from -L. Bissel, and Tnineteen other citizens of Aslhtabula county, prayiig that the Convention nmay fix upon soine un)ii fi)rm standard, by which ju(dges of election can de ternline the color of those, who ask the privilege to vote. Mr. HUNTER said, that this petition was not sent here for tile purpose of sport or derision, nor to occast ion any tiinnIecessary waite of timre; but it was sent her e by as honiest and judicious a class of ment, as cali be found in any community, as I can testifv foml a lon,r and intimnate personal acquaintalnce w,ith thenm. I'ThIey wish, by this mieans, to express their opinion of , the ridiculousness of such a variable, uncertain, an)( whimsical standard of qualificatio)n for the elective franchise, as color; in whici opinie), 1 wish to say, that I entirely concur. Neither, Mr. President, are these petitioners, fana tics. tThe charcre was several times mnade yesterday, iln the discussit)iin of the proposition to iemonce the colored population from the State, and to prohlibit others flomn coming ii), that anti-slavery people were fanatics. So far as Ashtabula cotunty is concerned, where I amn personally acquaisnted, niost enmphatically do I deny the charge, and I have no hesitation in saying, that there ihais bIeen exhibited hlere, during the sitting of this Convention, vastly lmotyre oif real fiery fanaticism iii referen>ce to banks, c()rp(rations, and s other subjects, than has ever existed among the staidi land sober peol)le of that county, on the sul)ject of hii aan r i glhts, during a period of near twenty years that I have lived among thlem. t Referred to the Committee on Miscellaneous Subijects and Propositions. Mr. HAWKINS presented a petition from Wm. S. 1 Browin, and fourteen othier citizetis of Morgan aind I Haabiilt4)n counties, prilying that a clause )(be inserted I in the new Col.nstitution, prohibiting the Legislature frotn passig any law legalizing traffiec in spirituous liquors; Which, on motion, was laid on the table. tMr. STIDGER presented a petition from Jo>bn Dam ter, a)d fifty males and females, on th3 e suam bje(t; Referred to the Select Comiumittee otn the subject of Retailing Ardent Spirits. Mr. R1DDLE presented a petition from A.o Webb and Daniel ]L. Star, on behlalf of the Qaarterly Con ference (of Park Street Chapel, Cinciinnati, on the same suil ject; Referred to the Select Colimittee on the subject of Retailing Ar(lenit Spirits. Mr. LIDEY submnitted the following: Resolved, That no petitions or memorials shall be received after the 25thl day of February, by this Coti venitioin. ONE HNlI,DRED AND FIFTEENTH DAY. FRIDAY Feb. 14, 1851, n 9 0'CL(OCK A. M. Thel( Conv(nttion met ptirstuant to adjournmerti.,. Mr. Sl'AN'()iA t'iest-tedl a petition fromr John J. Ac'kermiaia, pra, il'ig that the n.ew Conistitution tnay autlhorize I]le ~eerl Assentil)ly to repeal any law thev maQ deetm roper, c; v WVlhicli, oi motioiti w,' as laid on the table. Mr. CfTAMBvPIrRt presesited a petition from J. H. v.....tm,li'Iid',-ixtv o-lle rothe r citizeI from Muskirgum county, pla,ying that a clause be inserted in the new Constituti,oll prohibitinig the Legislature from passing any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquiors; Wlhiihl. on mnotioin, vwas laid on the table. Mr. (G[LJL,ETT presentedl a petition from E. W. 'Walkefield, aind sevenrty other citizens of Lawrence -b.etv, Q' Same subjLlect; W i), wa,:'t..,.rI,t tu Il,; Se^lect Comnmittee I"pon ,? svub:. et ()f Re',~a;4int,; Ardenilt Spir its. Mr. aI' tz It,, -,:,ntod; pet it ioi, fir-o Retiel Well,,zan, clhaiimnani of a meetinig of the inlhabitanits of On the asloption of which, Mr. 31ITCCHELL deiianded the yeas and lays which were ordered, and resulted-;yeas 1, nays 84, as follows: Y~As.-Mr. Lidey-1 q.u vs-Messrs, Andrews, Barnet of Mont,gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bites, Bennett, Blair Blickensderfer, Brvown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Catlli, Case o oclting. Citambes. Chaney Ce,l,tiigs, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ew rt, Ewing, Farr, Florence Forbes, Glllett, (,ray, Greene of Defiance, '('regg, Groesbecl-, Ham'xilton, Hard, Hawkins. Hernderson, Hitchcock of Geaugta, ilootmali, Hoitoll, Huimphreville,Huint, IIltitr, Jc, hnasn, lJones, k;ing, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrene, Larit bl, Leeet, if~;:Rt.I R, ArdiSasoirt., [Mtt ]i tcihell, Mc.ehead, 5;or,'i%, Mi"lou(., tecd C,rttiitoro etoWl,'i0s, Orton, O it,'. Ltersoia, Pe k, Oui,glet-y, Raitney, Reetaih, hietitdle, Saw yer, i 614 OfIlO CONVENTION DEBA Scott of Harrison Scott of Au-.laize, Sellers, Smilh of Iligh. laId, Smith of tv,arren,.S-Labery. Stanton, Stebbins, Stillwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble Swan. Swift, Thonipson of Shelby, Teompson of Stark,'i'ownshend. Vance of Butler, Wairen, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthington-84. aso essed] bys a jury. and subwiject ty e no deduction for any benefits ovccruiign tooany property of tpoe owner ox owniiergsh." ButLes e f raniet w thesendragcamsnd- owese pecuiliatr and special coriv -il ece s, that are taken frotgi the great pwass of the perpf tad conferred on th e few-ction se franchises abu bs waiy Mri.h you eldable the rich mut ack to w g l onoip tolize the wages of the poor —w are tonot willit.W should be considered. as property or paid fore as tucteh. Now sir. wha t has been the,hiandyif tha filt'y otese corporations. Has not t h e L fgislature literally tytched the, State over weith tlien h? and givehi s onic of t hemn the mios~t special and peculiar piile,,e,,? And yet yout are unwil ling to give thei t he hel, iiwedr to defend the people a dainst t le cor irtio the abutes w hich every one miust acknowledge all corporations are prone to coratit. Whyi h orilie we dis trust the represenita-tives o~f the(, people Wh y shio,ild we gvie t-hemthe power to inflict a ttmonoply, aGed yet. deny cliqei the ti i ri,~ht to abate it when it becomes a nlut. —ance.- Sir, I 'w.i ll vote for the apimendmhienit of the gentleman from n Bgootler, (Mr. KI NG,) and ife that fpoils, will vote for the setciote a-, tt wow stands. Mlr. KIRKWOOD said lie felt it his duty to define his position, in regard to the p resen t a teir,ient, and be intended t o do so as briefly and a s letiarly as he could. He diaa an ot deem it donsisteni,t with his duty as a iies ieber of this Cqtionv by entoeimenon thos ineotioe or c all i n que s tion the political intAegsiy of an '.s qttue-t wl... e. gc a o ientlemen f t h s floorl aaiys con,, tlih,.y dido hiil the honor to choos e n. Such hi-nf amopnions fell'ow citizens, to perform the duties of a mnembier of this body did not ifdepose upon the iaiiit duty so disagreealer, and e ven if they ha(.I, he would apave hesitated loaoa ew before attnd toptin sg to carry out tydheiries,ructienus. t u t g e had looked at this qirustiuc himself and for himyself, nwnn d it had struck lerhai, in the first place that there wae, a great deal iiiore of importance attached to this qcrroestion by gentlemen on both side s, than its real magnitude dem-thand ed. It was his opinion, anId ever had been that the General sl- stely no w in session at Colurobus, had the power to repeal ex( istinp cltarterst as fully a.,; and G ener al anyAsebl can f have, under this Cosotitution. Such was hie opinion, and ive would not care about the insertion of any iuch rovitsi on in this Constitutio n, if tat power Dtha did een dowetehd by idvisonae and denied by o th ers. he thought therefore'that, under to o ie c ircumstances, the ri(emit ought nto be asserted and made clear, that in fuituoe such a question might not aris ie. There is, however, an idea in this connection, which is this: I donDot know the extent of our powers h,.r in this Convention. It is said that in thiis Colistitu.= tien, we cannot make such~ provisions fo)r the repeal or charters now existing as would be effectual, and that to do so, would be to set as~ile, the provisions of the Constitution of the United States, and tie decisions of the Courts that have b(een tmade-, giving con,structioni to its provisions-. The question is this — whether the people, when they app[rove of this Coilstitution,'and contsentt to its provision~s, are not bound by it, and whether they have not th~us, agreed to, and adopted all the principles which it declares? If then we insert this power of repeal, (wh-ichl I admit we haive not now got,) and the people consent, cani any one So th-e resolution was rejected. Onl,notion o' ~Mr. McCLOUD, th.e Convention took up the repoIrt neulber two, of the committee on the o Le~gislative Departmyenit, with thle pending- amendOle-tits. The, qi,, s ion lindin ngraio H on agreeing to th e adtend mtiit of Mr. KING, to wit: ii,srt after tile word "iiin mudtt,,itiels" in section tli~i ty-thlree, ttre words "niow and h-er-arte r gra nt,(!(." Mr. C~llILL Mr. Pres,ident: As,, many gentlemen ,h~ave defined their positions on the repeal of corporalions, I will ask t he indulgence of this Convention a f, w inomtents, wh~ile I define. my own position. Sir, I Poelie,e the General Assembly has the power to repeal atcts ofiecori,ora'ion, but as that power has been denied, I think we ought to inseert a provision in thils Coi:itat r-:tiirmie,ti the power of the Genera As,sembl~y ove~r all acts of incorporationi. Sir, I beltieve that every generation is born free, and %as a no~tstel -iiaher n,. righit to govern itself —that the power to c-reate ciarries3 with it or im~plies thle power to ,destroy, a,,d itrat the power created is not greater than tile pow,,r thii~ created it, tliat the. present General Assemi,tiy can pas in law that a subsequent Legise ature ~ant alernaend, or repeal, whenever the public goo., diemiands it. Bat, sir. whienever the people, throngls their re,i)reseatatives, have asked the repeal of these corporations, they have been met with the cantt ,ofvest-ed rights, c-outr~acts, the decisions of your courts, ,an(] fran4chises; they are told that their righits and -riv i eere.nil conroateeed anid frittered away, and that the people, the gralid source of all political power, canrot resume pg ei. rthfits rand privileges, unless t,hey fiqrst nay,corporations for their franchises, or, ill other words, pay -corporations for the peculiar and spe. cial privileges conferred on them by their acts of it-corporation. I would as,k t,enitieteii if we came here {sountd down by thle decisionis of your courts, and fettere~d wits year veste-d ritghts atnd vested wrong-;, or if we came here like free men to formi an organic law i,n ,accordatreo with Lthe,iewvs and opinions of those who ,snt us. Sir, if those I represent, or myself, knew anything about w,hat this Convenition was called for, we knew it was in part, to set some bounds to these corporaitiouis; it was to say to then,, thus far shall yotu go, ,but 1no farther; it was to inisert a provision in this Constitution re-alinriung the power of the General Assembly over Lthese acts of-incorparationi. But what. do we propose to do with these thecororations? Why, gsir, simply to place them in the hands of the Geseral Asseinbty sat.aject to the Ailli of the people; and if the people have thle right of self-go-vernm-rent, why distrust thietn? I have nio fear tha.t thle General Assemibly will ever ekercise the, power of repeal wantonly or in bad faith, but only when the public good demaads it. But we are told that this,ts a war on corpora,tioins-that we propose to take t!,eir property, or to rob them of their properly, if you please. Now we ,propose tj do aosuch thiing. We make the same prov~ision for the prope,,rty of corporations that we do for individuals when itheir orep~erty is taken for thle public use, as reeerenee to the~ thiirty-sixth section of the re. port of the standing committee oil the Legislative Depsrtmeet will show, which I will read:no coie t toi an isn t b u d b it pr v s o s ,'Privqate property shall evrer be hcld inviolate, and no prop- tr i I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14. and C. propose to undertake a certain enterprize, which they say is for the public good, and for that purpose, and to serve their own interests, they apply to the General Assembly for an act of incorporationi. The object sought to be promoted is, it is believed for the public good, as well as for individual benefit. Believ ing so, a charter is granted, and the company goes in to operation. But the General Assemb)lv is not infal lible. It might have been mistaken. That which was supposed to be for the public good, turns out to be in juriouts to the public. Now the question is this: Does the General Assembly possess the power to relieve the public from this injury established under the impression that it was a benefit? If the Legislature has not this power, it fails to secure the very object for which it was created-the public good. If it cannot correct its own errors, it has ceased to be the thing it was intend ed to be. The public good-the very existence of the State imperatively demands that the right should ex - ist. I care not what ) ou call this power? Call it em inent dotnain, or State necessity, or whatever you please it makes no differer ce. It is all one, and the same thing. T hen, if, a s I h ave contended this righ t of r epeal ex ists, the next question to be considered is, upon what terms it is to be ex erc ised. And here i t strikes me. that th ose gent,lenen with whom I h ave acted, and with whom I intend still to act, if I can, are mistaken. Under their vimas of the case, they would visit the coi sequj-nces of the mistakes of the General Assembly or of the corruption of its members, upon the corpora tion alone, and not upon that body which has been guilty in enacting the unadvised or injurious charter. ltseems to me, that this is a wrong view of the morals of the case. My idea is this: Myselfand my associates, for the purpose of promoting some scheme of private benefit, and public utility, receive from the Legislature the grant of certain powers, and franchises, necessary, and proper, to carry our plans into execution. We so, invest our capital and enlierprise in the project that a io.)eal of our charter would inflict upon us great and serious injury. But we so have embarked our capital, that the public is receiving an injury from it. What is to be done. If tile question be between our rights and interests ana those of the public, whose must give way? Ours certainly. But whIso is to bear the loss. If the General Assembly confe-rred upon us moire than it ought, it is its fault. It will not nlot do to say the General Assembly acted il. bad Jaith, therefore, their act is void. Bad faith cannot be presumed against a government, mluch less can it alledge its own bad faith, its own corrupt actions, for the purpose of throwing the consequences of its acts on others. Mr. REEMELIN. Which is the principal in the offence, the seducer, or the person seduced? Mlr. KIRKWOOD. The person who had the most power, and evas the worst in fault. Mr. MITCHELL. I would ask the gentleman if he is In favor of the principle of repeal? Mr. REE.MELIN. It was you that seduced the T,-gislaa 12'e. Nir. KIRKWOOD. Such an assertion is contrary l,o the theory of a republican government. The idea Itrait when the government hlas done wrong, another A' rty mnust suffer for it, strikes at the very root of all t)~r ideas of republican truth and equality. The party tha-t hlas done the wrong, is the parts that should suffer, and as the people, in this case through their agents have committed the wrong, they should nlot throw over the consequences of that wrong on other persons blut, should to do them strict j ustice arnd equity. For instance: let us suppose that several gentlemen take any number of the radicalreformers df this convention, purchase half a township of land, which we intend to ocucpy for purposes of grazing. OTi looking at the premis es we believe that a mil l upon the premises would be valuable to ourse lves, and to the public. But the mill would be, usele ss without a dam, aind the dam would flow water over one )uii dred acres o f our laknd. Thee geitneq ianc fromWayllie,(Mr LARWILL,) is one of the company, and we apply to hion, t o build the mi ll ou t of his private funds. The PRESIDENT. The gentlemiian hasspoken out his time. Mr. ARCHBOLD moved that the gentleman be al-o lowed to proceed. The PRESIDENT. The gentlemarn has a t,ight to speak the second time, for te n minutes. He omay oc copy that time no w, if he cho oes. Mr. KIRKWOOD. I sav the gentlem an from Wayvne is invited to build l theil out of his n priv ate funds with the privilege of taking toell for his grinedingo HIe concludes to do so, and goes on and invests hins money in building the mill. After it is done, we findis that the speculation was not as. good as we anticipa ted and that instead of being bemefitted, we have been injured by it; the loss of the land overflowed by the dam is gre ater tha c e n o the benei t from the nill andi the result is, we desire to get rid of the dam. Now whoat shall be done with the gentlem an from Wayne, who has inves ted t e n thousand dollars ii the speculatior? Shall we bear the consequeieces or s hall l he? What does he think about it? I should be glad to hear. My opinion is that if we found it necessa r y t o take down the wrill dam, we ionsght do so, but t held that the gentlema n should not be made the scape goat, anll hav e to bear the loss of the money invested by hino at our request. ~The mere nWaked assertion o f t he powe r of repeal in the constittion would sllit my vieows upon this ques t ion. The n when the charters of incorporatedS companies a re repealed, I believe that tsle Ctourts would be ope n for the investigation of their claims, and the wjtst and equ it able determination of thei rights. With thi s opinion, and wi th this opinion alone, I have give mly votes upon all the questions connected with ~txis subject, and If I had liot so be lieved I should not so have voted. So lpidgd as prope sitionis submitted for our action assert the p wer of the General Assembly to repeal charters, leavisig our courts open t o the parties who ma! consider thep,u t selves injured, to seek redress for the injury, so long shall I vote for them. If it is sought to bar th e acess es of such parties toen o the court s, or to deny to tise inu tice and equiity in those courts, I shall record my vite against such propositions The secti on tnow under con s ideration and the thirty-sixth section of the reb)rt, in iy opAnion, are suf ficient to secure what I deem right il the matter. I had some fear that the section under consideration might be construed to be prospective oinly, but, the anmend ment of the gentleman from Butler, (Mr. KING,) will settle that poin-t. I am also of opiniion that section thirtv-six is rather more stringent than necessary, ancd provides unnecessary preeautions, but I am willing to waive for that for the sake of getting the question settled. One word more as to section thirty-six. Both the gentlemen from Franklin, (Messrs. SWAN and Stas1rRwr,', are of opinion that section thirty-si:~ will nlot apply to and bear upon the Section nlow Under consideration. They say thsat section tlirty-six: provides only for cases inl which property is taken for the pulblic ulse, anRdthat when a charter is repealed thle property may not be talken forl t,he pulblic use at oil. It appears'to me this is an unnoecessary fear~ Property Is taken for the public Air?, whet} it is injulr ed or dlestroyed for the public good. Al house that is burned in w~ar forpublic ends, or a house that ~s lblown 616 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14. Mr. QUIGLEY wished, as other gentlemen were defining their positions upon this question to define this and make a few remarks in relation to the amendment of the gentlemen from Butler. He had been glad it was offered, for the reason that some gentlemen had contended, that sec. 33 involved the idea of retrospective repeal, while others had insisted that it contained nothing but prospective repeal. This amendment would settle the question, and settle it satisfactorily to his mind. Ite had, in his inquiries into the nature of government, been led to believe that all power originated in and belonged to the people. He had been of the opinion that those who deposite their votes this year in the ballot box have all the power that aniy other set of electors ever had under the present or any other constitution. Ile supposed that this constitution posseses all the power possessed by an)y previous convention in the State, or any where else, and he would now say, that if this convention should be so idle as to putinto the constitution the provision setting forth that it should for ever remain inviolable, the people would laugh at our simplicity and scout the proposition as worse than folly and at once consider that we were about to trample upon their dignity and sovereign authoritv. If we cannot insert in this constitution the nower to repeal this instrumenit,where, I ask, did the legislatute acquire the power to enact a number of acts of incorporation which cannot be repealed? We have no hesitation to assert in the constitution that the people have a right to abolish, at pleasure, their form of government; and if they do as we all admit, possess that power, do they not as an irresistible inference de. duceble from that fact, possess all minor powers, including that of repealing by the Legislature, any law that a previous Legislature has enacted? If it were otherwise, than it follows, that our government cuntains the elements of it s own destruction. If o n o e Legislature may grant;rrevocably oe right and another an other; may not, in this manner all tite rights of the people, at length be granted away, and thus the govern ment be overthrown and destroyed? I cannot admit that our free democratic government does necessarily contain the elements of its own destruction and thuts reduce it to a mere experiment, anid bring about a terminiation of the only fair fabric of freedom in the world. If it does not necessarily destroy itself, is not the inference plain that it has no right to annihilate any portion of its vitality? Mr. President: I can see no injury or injustice that can result from setting forth the principle of uinqualified repeal. Has any wrong come from the declaration of the right of the people to abolish the government? The people have the right to abolish; but it does not follow that the gove rnment must be destroyed whether the public good demands it or not, neither has the power been exercised, and further it does not follow from a declaration of the power to repeal, that the General Assembly must declare a war of extermination, destructica and ruin upon all corporations in the State. The people neither possess nor claim the right to do wrong, no such right exists anywhere, and the Gener al Assembly have no right to act unjustly in repealing charters, but in that as in all other cases, airy bound by moral obligations of justice and equity, and corporations, instead of being ruined by the repeal of their charters, would have the General Assembly between them and danger, and no doubt would have justice done in the premises. The only necessity for declaring the right of repeal in the fundamental law, is because a diversity of opinion exists, and the General Assembly do not likce to shoulder the responsibility. Gentlemen upon this floor have saidi that if we assert lhe unqualified right of repeal, we come in collision up to prevent the sp read in g of a fire, is taken for the public use, and must be paid f or. Where the location of a railroad i njure s a ma's land, although it does, n ot t ouch it, he can claim compensation. But if these gentlemen vet f ear, I will aid them to make the application of section thirty-six mor e clear. I t is right it shoul d apply. T he ch airman of the c ommittee by whici h the repor t was made, the gentleman from Hamilton wh, drafted the se secti ons, and others of the committee sav it was intended to apply, and my own opinio n is that it does apply. But I am willing to make t he applica ti on more clear, to carry out the intention ofthe committee, and would suggest the inse rtion at the e nd of the second lisne, these w ords: "or injured or destroy ed to promio te t he public welfare." These or some sucli words,would place the matter beyond doubt, if inserted in the proper place. I have s aid that mv preference would be for the naked asser tion of tie power of repeal, believing that the results of such action would be such a s I have before stated; but I will read a proposition I have drawn up, covering, I believe, the same ideas, which 1 have, drawn up for cons ide ration, i n case the pre se n t section should f ail. It is this: Thse General Assembly shall have power, whenever the public good may r equire, to alter, amend, revokor repeal, any d and ai acts of incorporati on now existing, or that may hereafte r exist, on such terms of come sensation as shall b e just and equitable, to be assessed by a jury, as in other cases. Mr. LARWILL desired to say that he was in favor of th e ar uendmeit. Ie had not been of t he be lief that any gran t of pow er would add to the rights of the Legislature to control charters. fe believed with the gentleman from Richltn., that that power resided in the Legislature to be exercised retroactively as well as prospectively. He desired, however, to have. that power definitely setlied and distinctly defined. It would have a tendency to keep companies within their true limits. He did not go so far as some in regard to paying corn. pensation for actsof incorporation repealed. That question has broken fullv argued bv able gentlemen upon both sides. He believed the State would do right and justice in all such cases; but he would not pay for a franchise, because he would pay nothing for tnat which cost nothi,,g. If the Legislature confer upon me a power to build a certain road, they give that to me which another may not possess. They do this upon the presumption that I will keep within the limits of my dutv, and while I do so, they will protect me. If I do not do so, they will take away the privilege. Mr. THOMNPSON of Stark, said he was one of the committee who reported this bill, and he desired to define his position in regard to the question of repeal. fie was in favor of unqualified and unconditional repeal and supposed the report to set forth that doctrine in the most unequivocal manner. In that he now found he was mistaken. He should therefore go for the amendment of the gentleman from Butler, and if it was stronger he should like it better. Mr. RANNEY said he should vote for the amendment of the gentleman frzm Butler, though he believed the section as it stood was open to the same i niterpretation. He should vote against the amendment of the gentleman from Franklin, as he wished it to be distinctly understood, though he should give his vote to make it as perfect as possible. He would vote for no amendmeelt that did not previde for the unqualified repeal of all charters, without providing ally further for them than is now provided. It would be treason to himself and the people he represented to depart one hair from the position the had taken, and he would vo3te now and forever for the unliimzited right of the legislative power to control all grants that havre been made by it' 617 618 01110o CONVENTION DEBATES-FRtDAY, FEBRUARY 14. He wanted to speak plainly upon the subject, and for hinmself he felt that on this question he could occupy no middle ground without a violation of his duty to the people. If other gentlemen could do so, hlie could not. If the gentleman from HaImiilton, (Mr. Rrr MgLt,) wants retroactive repeal, what is his objection to say in so in so niany words. Ir. PEEIELI1N. What, is the ise of it? Mr. KING. Because opinion s d iffer as to the con struction of the section, and I want to make it une quivocal. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. K G.'. Mr. KING demanded the yeas and nays, %which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 33, iays 63, as follows: Yiz.s —-Me.ssrs. A ndrews, Arcbbold, Barnett of Preble, Btair Blicliensdeifer, Cabill, Case of Lickintg, Chaney, Cook, Ew an, i rt, Ewirg, Frr, rbes, Gray, Greelne of Defiance, Gregg, Griesbeckoid iiy, ard, H eeson, Iones, Hotinan,t Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, King,, Kirlkwood, Larwll, l.,eecb, L,ead, better, Lidey, L(,,udotn, Manron, IIason. MLlitchiell, Morehead McCormick, Norris, Ortoni, Pattersoy, Quig ley, Ran(e, Reemelin,Riddle,Sawyer,Scott of Hlarrison,scatt of Aug;.laize Sellers. Smitn of VW'yandot, Stebbinis, Stilwell, SticlikneyStidger, St.]uble, Swan,'Iaylor, Tiiorripson) of Shelby, Thomp son of Starlk, Towni-sheni(l, Vance of Butler, Warren, W'ilsoD), Woodbury anti Worthington —63. NAys —Messrs. a4arhee, Barnet of Monitgomery, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Athenis, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chanmbers, Collings, Cuirr-y, Cutler, Fioreiice, Giliett,Grahan, Gr-een of Ross. Hamilton. Harlan, Ha,vkiiins, flitlhcocok of (eauga, Horton, IHunter. Johnson, Latch, MNlorris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkinis, Smith of Highllandt, S:mith of Warren, Stanbery and Stanton-33. with the courts of justice, and some gentlemen have gone so far as to talk even of our committing periury {X11 account of the oath we have taken to support the Constitution of the United States. Mr. President; I desire to pay as much regard to the solemnity of an ouath, and all due respect to the decision of the courts, and to the authority of low as any other individual: but from the remarks (,f legal gentiemeni uponi this floor, seems to be a radical aifference of oplinion in relation to the decisions of courts. What are we tc d,? Whet n legal genllemen of very high attainment differ, we shall be lelt to act upon our owi judgment; and in doing so, shall be governed by our own views of tLe Constitu tion of the United States. Many gentlemen regarded acts of inlcorporation as conitracs, others do not. In my opinion, they are not eontra,'-ts. In regard to this questioti also, legal gei tlemrni disagree, and I am left to be guided by my own opitiion. 1 am clearly of the opinion that they are not tontracts. They are a sort of one sided affair. There is no recipro ity of consideration; and it is said by law yers and by c(,mmonioi sense, that in order to make a valid contract, there must be a consideration on both ades. If they are not contracts, it follows that they are not covered by the decisions of the Supreme Cou rt of the Uiited States. I shall, therefore, support the amendment of the gentleman trom Butler. And, in short, I believe the unqualified right to repeal an ithiererit powerpossessed by the sovereign people, as lying at the foundation of our government, anid as ne cessary to our security. I say as necessary to pubic security. To illustrate this, suppose that the General Assembly pass al) act of incorporation, which may be productive of injutry to the public, and suppose the act to have passed without the General Assembly foresee ing the iinjurious consequences resulting therefrom, and Fuppose tihe corporators carry out their ch-arter inll good faith, andthe act irrepealable; it is easy to see,thiat public well-being and security may be destroyed, and this our government he merely a farce. I consider the sovereign power to repeal, as secured and handed down to us by our forefathers, as remraining with the people in all its pletititttde,and it is our solemn :duty to hand it down to posterity inviolate. Mr. MANON. I.,hall vote for the ameidmnent,and I shall do so upon the same principle that I vote in general-because I want it to show its face, that I can see what it means. I will not vote for a proposition that has two sides-that one says means one thing and another another. I cannot consent to vote for a proposition which you may call a pig or a puppy, or anything e5se that circunmstances require. I shall vote for this amendment, and if it prevails, and the propositlon V as ame nided, come up, I shall then vote as my judgment shall dictate. I shall vote for this for the sole purpose of clearing it up, so that we may all agree whatit means. /1r. REEMELIN said he was sorry to see the amendment of the gentleman friom Butler, (Mr. KI adoG.) If hie shoulld vote for it, it would be asserted that without it, the section as reported, did not mean retroactive repeal, while on the othl,er hand, if he should vote against It, he would be accused of vot.ing against repeal. He would say, however, that ex'ept the atnenndment introduced by Mr. ROBERTSON, t thts was the strongest repeal proposition that. had| ever been moved in this Convention. Although he i h-ad felt some doubts as to how he should give his -b, ad now determined to vote for the amend no case his position in regard to the "a he misunderstood. neridment would put a posi the section. One great ques- I {hat the true construction was. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRI AY, FEBRUARY 14. of such corporation, taken, injured, or destroyed there- ed." I-le would like to see it done, and if done would by, and paid in money in such manner, as may be pro vote for it. vied by law." Mr. MASON did not intend to argue the merits of Mr HlAWKINS demanded a division. the amendn-ment proposed by the genitleiman frona The question then being first on striking out. Trumbull, (iMr. RAN.N'Y:) but desired tihe indulgence Mr. CASE of Hocking, demladed the yeas and of the Convention for a few momenits, for a r(,mirkor nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 54, two uponi what he understood to be( the effect, of that nays 42, as follows: propositioni, and uLpon the policy of adoptillg or re AS s, Archbold, arbee,Baret oMont.lecting it. It would be well to understaned, first, gomery, Bariett of Preble Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, what was the end which gentl(-eman desired to secure, Brown of A'hlenrs, Brown otf i'arroll, Case of T-Iockiig. Case and secondly to what extent the amendment would of Licking, Chambers, (ollings, Cookl, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, conduce to secure it. The Legislature, as it lad been Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hlamilton, Har;an, Hawkins, Hitchcock of t,uyahoga, Hitch truly sad possess, without the amendment, all the cock of Geauga, Horton, Iumphreville. Hunter, Johnson, powers proposed to ibe conferred bv it. This, hle belarsh. Manon. Mason, Moreleai, Monris, McCloud NIash, lieved had been admitted by gentle]nan on both sides Otis, Peck Perlits. Scott,f Harrison Smith of Highlanid,i t there cllot oprate .,"i~th f..rn,Staibry Stntn Silel)Swii,Vaceof the, house. The amendment there, cannot operate Smiitth of Wairren, Stanbery, Stanton Stiwl,w, alarrncenofI tpe hchi of Butler, Waren. W(oodbury arnd W'orthinigton-54. as an erlargemenit of that power which is already NAY,s-Messrs. Blai, 4 ahill, Ch-uiey, Ewing, Fanr-, Forbes broader than itself. Its effect therefore will be a linraGreene of i)efiance. Gregg. Hard, Henderson, H)Ilmes, [loot- itation of the exercise of the poser which the Leigisnian, Hunt. Jones, Kin- Kirkwootl, Larwil, L,eecl, Lead- latuie now hlold(s in its greatest amplitude If the better, ltidey, Loudon, iMitchell, M Cormick, Nori., Orton. Patterson,Quigley, Hanney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer. Scott proposition had been drtan so as to close with the of Auglaize. s.etl)rs, Smithi of Wyandot, Stebbins. Stickney, words, "as,may be prescribed by general laws," inStidger, Struble, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Town.heiid stead of "as the legislature may thinkit proper," he ~ania~~d Wil~soy-42. ~could see no great obLljection to it. It would then ex So the motion to strike out was agreed to. press fullv the right of the Legislature to prov-ide by ThIe question then being on inserting the following general laws for the repeal of acts of incorporation. words: Suppose such an amendment as this should be adopt "All laws now in force creating private corporations ed: "All further grants and franchise may be repealed naay be al!ered, revoked, or repealed, whenever the and revoked on such just and equitable termis as may public welfare may require it; provided further, that be prescribed by law." I surnbit to him if it would just and equitable compensation, to be assessed by a not be an e xpress limitation of the Legislative power, ury, as in otlhei cases, shall be made for any proper and a limnitation in favor of the acts of incorporation? ty of such corporation, taken, injured, or esroved Now I like the iectleman from Trumbull il some rethereby, and paid ini money, in such manner, as inay! spects, and I have no objection to saying so. I agree be provided bv lawr." with hiua most cordially iii this particular that I am Mr. RANNEY moved to perfect the words to be in- aliliherently opposed to the use of' all covert language s erted by addi.g at the end thereof th e following and expressions i this Constitution. 1 amwitl lim " a n d all corporations hereafter created may b e alter- mostemphatically in this declaration. Whatever the e d, revoked or repealed at any time by the General intentions of this body may be, let the instrument Assembly, upon such just and equitable terms, as we are naking express them fully, boldly aid lnethey shall think proper." |quivocally. Let us not uninrtentionallylv leave anything Mr. GREEN of Ross, would ask the gentleman fronm for doubl), nothing that shalt not lead directly to its Trumbull, (Mr. RAN^'EY,) what was the object, in the own construction absence of all restraining laws to give the Legislature I said that the proposition was a limitation of the power which it already possesses? Legislative power as it is now possessed. This may The Legislature has the right, in conferring char attract the attention of somne, and lead to a Tnodificaters to prescribe the terms, and if the charter is accep tion of their opinions. Let it be so. It ought to be ted the stipulations form a part of the law of the conl fully understood by all who give their votes upon it. tract. Irn that manner lhe right of repeal of all fu- And looking upon the amendment as a limitation. ture charters may be secured. What shall I sav? That I am in favor (of or oppposed Mr. RANNEY. The first cui bono is that I want to i? I had rathier the power would exist under such to see hovw muchi sincerity there is in gentlemen upon a limitation as is expressed in the amendent in the to see how iui.,ed in the amendismepresst inte the question of prospective repeal, and whether they amendment of the ginratlenran from Franklin, (Mr. will practice what they preach upon that subject. SwAN,) and if it is equitable and right to place cor The second is to avoid all liability to put a cou- porations now in existence under such a shield, why struction upon this Constitution, suc.hl as geutlemen not equally so in regard to those in future to be creainsist should be put on the Constitution of the Uni- ted? There can be lio doubt that if as is contended ted States. the General Assembly possess the power of providing Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geaug,a, had said hitherto, for the repeal of acts of incorporation, whether the and said still, that lie saw no objection to giving the same be expressed in the Constitartion or not that General Assembly the power to repeal ail acts of in- right beconme a part of the law of the corporation corporation. The only consideration was the ques- whether expressed in the act or not. tion of policy, as to the manner in which it should But, Mr. President, attempts have been made here be exercised. Now the Geireral Assembly always had to argue, that an act of incorporation is not a contract the power to retain the aight of repeal of each act of between the Legislative power and the party to whom incorporation, and in his opirnioi it should have ex- the grant is made. Now, an act of incorporation is a ercised it in nearly every instance, except in corpora- contract, and there is but onc opinion among all men tions for internal improv ernent. who are called to make decisions upon the subject in lie was sorry an amendment had been offered to the a legal forum. The right reserved to resciard by the amendment of the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. parties to a contract, is not unknown in practice, and SwAN.) If that lad beenoffered as a separate propo in regard to acts hereafter granted. there can be no sition, it might have been amended by soanething like firaud in reserving the right to repeal (Jr rescind at the this: "The General Assembly shall provide by gener- pleasure of the granting party. There is, however, al laws the terms upon which charters may be repeal- a high question of policy iiavolved in the matter; and 619 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FJIDAY, F.}BRUARY 14. if the power is to be exercised, I had rather it should be exercised under some limitation prescribed in the Constitution, because it is wrong and unequal to re tain the right of repeal on the one side, with no cor responding right or privilege on the other. It is advisable, therefore, for the friends of repeal to come together, andto endeavor to fix upon some terms under which it may be declared in the Consti tution, otherwise the question will be agitated and agitated here; and fromn here it will go out to be agi tated among the people, until the State shall be con vulsed, and there shall be no end to it. Therefore it is, that I say, that it is our duty to come together, and frame some provision that shall put an end to the agi tation. I had rather the proposition of the gentle man from Franklin, (Mr. SwAN,) had contained the words, "franchises or other property," because all know that there is a division of opinion among mem bers of this body, and that some will vote for it, be lieving that the term property does not iuclude fran chises, and ifI vote for it, it will because I believeand know that property does include franchises. The gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. LAnwrLL,) is mistaken, when he says, that the profession is divided upon this question, and when he inquires, "who shall de cide when doctors disagree?" he is mistaken. The text books-the very horn books of the profession, are full of hlie doctrine that a franchise is property, and that gentleman shall not escape the responsibility of his vote, by saying that doctors differ. They dif fer as to whether it ought, bylaw, to be property; but we are here, not to settle that question. Our inquiry is limited to the question of fact-for it is a question of fact-whether it is, and not whether it should be so. Now, as I have sald before, the gentlernan Irom Trumbull is a bold man. I amni glad of it. I like a bold man. He is desirous to express fully his opin ion, and desires to have nothing equivocal in the Con stitution. So do I. I wish to put into the provision the term franchise, because I know that it is proper ty, and if gentlemen believe otherwise they are cheat ed; and if it should be decided otherwise, the court that should do it would overrule the decisions of two centuries. Gentlemen may deny that such ought to be law, but that is not the question. If they deny that it is the law thev offer only their o" n crude con ceptions to contradict what is asserted in every book in a lawyer's library. It is a question of fact, and not of law, and a man might as well dispute what is ill the statute book as to deny it. Where a grant is made of a franchise, and it has been acceptedand a movemenit is made under it, that f.anchise becomes property, and the fact can neither be controverted nor dis guised. Mr. LOUDON. Mr. President, the gentleman has spoken his twenty minutes by the clock. Mr. SAWYER, (in the chair, looking at his watch). It lacks about a minute of it, sir. Mr. MASON. I hope my friend from Brown, (Mr. LOUDON,) will bear with me. I am a very brief manl, and very entertaining. [Laughter.] All I have to say, is. that I hope the proposition of the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) will be modified a little, otherwise I shall not be able to vote for it. Mr. NASH appealed to gentlemen to get rid of this question by putting it where it belongs. It is raised in other places, and especially in the report of the comrl mittee on corporations other than corporations for banking, and there is where it belongs. He protested against its being thrust in here, where it had no con-' gruity with the subject matter of the bill. The Coilvention had wasted a month by not adhering to the order of business prescribed by the committees, and if he voted against the proposition it w ould be on the single ground that it has no b)usinsess here. Mr. HAWKINS, understanding that the amendment applied to future corporations, he should vote for it, though he did not believe this the most appropriate place for such a provision. But he could not vote for a provision which would be nugatory, as contrary to a provision of the Constitution of the United States, and the decisions of the courts. And he should vote upon this proposition, without regard to what gentlemen here would make of him. He had not been charged bv his constituents to do what gentlemen here required of him, and he did not think it requisite for him to take cognizance of the resolutions or platforms of Eighth ofJanuary or Fourth of July coinvenitiotis. He would answer to his constituents., and by them he would stand, or fall —and he had very little respect for that class of politicians, who set up their own creed as infallible, and like another species described by the poet Burns: "Send ane to Heaven and ane to Hell, A' for his glory; And not for any good or ill, He may hae done before ye." Mr. CASE of Licking, would not vote for the propositiorn in this place, but would do so, in the proper one. Mr. ARCHBOLD was opposed to the amiendmenlt. On motion of Mr. LARS H, the convention took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSTON. 2oY O'CLOCK, P. M. The question pending being oni the amendment of Mr. RANNEY to the amenidmienit, to wit, add at the end thereof the following: "And all corporations, hereafter created, may be altered, revoked, or repealed, at any time by the General Assembly, uponi such just and equitable terms as they shall think proper." Mr. MORRIS moved a call of the Convention, which was o rdered, and Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Graham, Groesbeck, Iiecdel'soni, Hitch cock of Cuyahoga, Holmes, Holt, Hootmiean, Horton, Hunter, Jones, Kennon, Mahioiu, Mitchell, McCormick, Nash, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Roll, St,anber-v, Stick ney, Swift, Vance of Champaign, Way, Williams, Woodbury, Worthington and President, were found absent. On motion of Mr. STANTON, the doors were closed, and the Sergeant-at-Arnms despatched for the absentees. The Sergeant-at-Arms returned, and reported that he had found the following named gentlemen, and that they were now present, to wit: Messrs. Farr, Stickney, McCormick, Case of Licking, Riddle, Horton, Stanbery, Hootman, Henderson, Mitchell, Jones, Andrews, Peck, Chanev and Graham. The PRESIDENT, [Mr. SAwYER in the Chair,] appointed Mr. VANCE, of Butler, to fill the vacancy in the committee on the Judicial Department. The question pending being on Mr. RANNEY'S amendment to the amendment, to wit, add to the end thereof the following: "And all corporations hereafter created may be altered, revoked, or repealed, at any time by the General Assembly, upon such just and equitable terms as they shall think proper." Mr. KING demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and r esulted yeas 47, nays 43, as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Cook, Ewing: Farr, Forbes. Greene of Defiance, Gr-egg, Hard, Hawkins, Hendersen, Holmes, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leech, L,eadbetter, Lidey, ljoudon, Mitchell, Mc('ormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranhey, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of A uglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Taylor, 620 01H10 CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14. men are determined that no encouragement shall be given in any way to our citizens to undertake the construction of internal improvements, well and good; in doing so you violate no provision of the Constitution of the. United States, nor any provision of the law of contracts. It is a question of expediency only, not involving a constitutional question-I mean so far as regards the granting of charters hereafter. But in relation to charters already granted, it is out of the power of this Convention to say that the property holder shall be deprived of any portion of his property, unless you make compensation therefor. Now, if a franchise is no property, it is not to be paid for a(ccording to the provision of the first part of the section, because the word "property" is there used; and it would be worse than folly in this Convention to say that the Constitution of the United States should thus be changed, and the law of contracts existing at the time a contract was made should be also changed, and the rights of the party be taken away. Sutch a provision would be a nu]ity, and not worth the paper on which it was written; and no one could support it here without a direct violation of the Constitution of the United States and the provisions of the la w of contracts existing at the time of the rmalking of the grant. For these reasons I shall vote against this amendment. Mr. STANBERY o pposed the amendm ent, contend ingn that there was no such provi sions to be found i n the Constitution of any State in the Union; hle r egar ded it as infiinitely worse tha n unconditional repeal. The object of it was not only po that the Legislature shou ld repeal these charters, but that they should have the power of r epea l absolutely, andd withoult any power to make compensatieon. qihe gepntlenian frone Tr bull had declared that he must support th is amendment, otherwise he wo uld be gui ltvy of tr eason. He [Mr. STAoNBf nY',] ould not supporte the u lainderig ent, because in doing so he shou ld be guilty oh larceny, robbery, plunder-in short, a violation of that lawv which every man held a s s acred and rityht; and he, was satisfieid that evetn oa the other side ofr th chanber gentlemen did not consider to what mitshoief this amenidinent would lead. This provision iwould tie ulp the hands of the Legislature, where it was proper, and right, and just, that comilpensationi should be made where a franchise was taken away. If gentlemen were ready to go for such a provision, he could tell them that the people of the State were not ready. This was a provision which even the Demnocrats of Texas would scorn to adopt; even the Constitution of Texas provides that a charter shall not be repealed without making compensation for the franchise. Mr. RANNEY. The gentleman from Franklin [Mr. STAXNBERY,] has remarked that by a process of special pleading we have at length reached the real issue in this controversy, and that is whether the value of corporate acts and franchises shall only be resumed by the State, upon being paid for in money to the holders, as much as they may be worth to them. I agree with him that this is an important issue, and I am happy that we have reached it, and so distinctly too, that it. can no longer be evaded. Gentlemen can now have an opportunity of showin by their votes the sincerity of their oft repeated declarations, made throughout the discussion upon the subject of repeal. We have been constantly told byr certain gentlemen on1 this side of the chamlber, that they were ready to go for the unqulalified righttof repeal as to fututre corporations. Upon the vote just taken uponl that distinct question, most of them voted against it. Their have further constantly told us,that upon the repeal of existing corporations, all t hey demandevd was that the property of the corpooration Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Townishend. Vance of 3utler anld WVilson-47. NA&Ys —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Baurniet of Mlontgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Beiinett, Blickensdeifer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Garroll, Case of Hockliing, Case of Licking, C.ollingzs, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, ttarlan, Hitchcock of Geauga. Horten, Huinter, J('hnson, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, MIorris, ei oclotud, Nash. Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highlanid. Si~'lith of Warren, Stainbery, Staniton, Stilwell, SwaD, VCarred ain, id oo,ibury-43. So the amendment to the amendment was adopted. Mr. RANNEY proposed further to amend the amendment, by insering the following, after the words "provided by law:" "But the value of the act of inc(,)poraation, or corporate franchise, so altered, revoked or repealed, shall not be included in the estimi-a.te for compensation above provided for." Mr. VANCE. Does that apply to the first or the last pars of the propositioin? The PRESaDENT. The Chai r will read the propo sitioI, as p roposed to be amended. fThe piropositioh t, as proposed to be amended, was read. ir. VANCE, of But ler. I shall vote agains t this amendment as attached to the first proposition, and I will endeavor to state, in a very few words, the reason s why I vote against it. It will be seen, by trie terqms of the amendm ent propo s ed by t he gentleilsan from Ftra nkliin, th at the power of repeal is to be exercised first u; on the condition that the public neces sitey rrequires the exercise of a power of this kind, and second ly, th at where it is so exercised, and in consequence ol its exercise, property is impaired in value, or taken aw lay or d estroyed, that property shall be plid for. Now, this provision says nothing about the franchise, and it is prop er that it should not, for this reison: thatm i f the ho lders of a franchise should b e prote cted by e Tiwa apo the provi sions of the Cstittio of the United States, and their property should be giiaantied i to them under the law of contract, and by virtue of that instrument, we should underta ke to nbalpe the law retroactive in itself, that law would be void, because it would be in violation of the Constitution of t he Un ited Sl ates. On the other hand, if the Supretme Court of the United States, or any other United States Copert, should s ettl e th at a franchis e is property, as a matter of course, under the provision proposed in the amendment of the gentleman from Fr ankiin, they would be entitled to receive compensation. Now, let us inquire into this matter a little further. Suppose that a contract is made to-day, no matter wheii it is to be perfected, it must be decided accordirng to the law of contracts existing at the time it was entered into, as much so as if it embodied the law of contracts in it. Just so it is with a grant. If the Legislature should make a grant of a franchise, that grant exists in pursuance of the law which might be in force at the time it was made; and if you should change your Constitution the very next day after it is made, you still have the rights of the parties to be settled in accordance with the provisions of the law of contracts, and the Constitution, at the time the grant was made. Consequently, if the Supreme Court should decide that a franchise is property, as they have decided heretofore, and will decide again, thus, lunder the amnezdmenlt of the gentleman from Franlklin, that property whould have to be paid for; and it w~ould be inl vain to undertake to insert a provision here conltrary to the law of conatracts and the provigsionl of the Constitution of the United States having a bearing upon the subject. Sir, wve could give no such vote, without a violation of the Conlstitutionl of the United States. If this amnendment; had relation to the latter clause of the section, I would care but little about it. If gentle 621 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FE:BRUARY 14. shonld be paid for, without iiicludini any pay for the' placing themselves above the State and beyond the corporate fraichises so revoked or taken away reach of legislation? All these privileges, wheii con This amemdrnent presents that distinct question, ferred, belonged to and were take n fioiii the rights of and still the indications are that they will assist in the whole people. In many cases they have been en voting it down -bu'c we shall see.'The gentlenini ioved until their possessors have become rich, power froFrankl incolop ii-ius that the ainienit doe,fl, and overbearing. No consideratioi was ever not allow sufficient discretion to the Le(gislatuie The paid for thi'rn-thiy did nt cost otie cent unless it gentleman has helped to vote down every proposition w expendiiig in deceiving or corruptingi the peoples' to leave the ternis of repeal to the Legislatue, to be representatives. And still. if the people ghould re applied according to the jiistice of each case. I have solve notto be plundered of their rig'hts for the future, voted for them, anld ililand if lie rcpei-its, Newill they can only apply the remedy bv laying? increased receive him, although it is at the eleventh hour; but burdens upon themselves to pay these ruen as much he niut not come complaining of us in this partico- as they could make if they were permitted to go oiii lar. This attempt to take it from the Letgislature and Let, those who are willing to levy taxes, and drain the to fix a rule for all cases in the Constitution. does not State treasury to redeeni this mortgage upon the rights originate with the friend,, of repeal, but with its ene- and liberties of the people, vote agailst umy amendl miles. I am only responsible for my amendment, not mtn-t. I would as soon think of lei-yinrg taxes to pay for the pi-opo.itioII to which it is appended, for which the tlief for the goods he had stolei before they could I shall never vote, unless it. is radically changed. be taken from hii. The geutlc-nyi-.i~n has called my am-neadnilent by very But if this doctrine of paying for franchises is to prevail, repeals will'be asked tbi'r, in manyi cases indi hard names. He affirms that to refuise to pay for the franchises of a corpoiatien rpen its repeal, is "lar rectly by the corporaters themselves, as tlce most oeily" and "pn " rofitable way of selling out. The old mustv vol ceinv" and( "lplunider~." He el.se it as p.rop~erty, and,'u'"' umes of local laws will'be ransacked to fuirnisl~ keys holds it as sacred as the fruits of the industrv of the private citizen! Iu order to ai correct undeistandin~ to the State treasury; aud instead of corporations of riy amnudment, it oeust be rread ndrd consideredi beiiig put upon their good behavior for fear of repeal, of m~~~~~~~~~~~~hy wileld have a consitustibeonad gaandy cosiderfec in connection with the proposition of the other gen they will have a coistitutional guaranty for perfect impunity. It will eithier abolish all legislative con tlieman from Franklin, [Mir SWA.N,] to which it is, pro pdto attach it. By that ppo,ition it i provided tiot over corporations, or bankrupt the State to pay posedtoatcitByhapopgtoiti,poic( these wag~es cf iniquity. that all tbe property of the corporation "ta'ken, injur- the wes ca rni1 uity - ed, or destroyed," by the repeal or alteration of itsc he Dele afrnrat,[, charier shall be asseqsed by a ]urv, aid paid for in presses his fears for the siccess nf the Deiicratic 'mn o avoid aell miconstruction ad c iue to advocate such doctrines as money. aiisiav d in this wmendoent, and anounices his public treasury from "plunder," my amendment pro deteiniaitic-d io ttr uiieits defeuce. 1 amequis vide tha "te vaue f th ac o f ncoporaion determination to enter upon its defen-ce. I am quite, vides tbit "the value of the -Let of iiicni-poiatiou-i" willing to allow that the geiitleaniai is a fair exponent shall not be included, thus separatinig the tagible and ablie advocate of the doctrines of the Wihig paity, property of the corporation from the mere privilege conferied by the law of its cieation For the f irst ii shall ever coeitie, nwith his present prii g ciples, then he is f o und operatifor t lwith us, we,hall payin'g to tie "Utiost farthing," but for the last, r e- have occa~ino to exclaim with an English King, "God swmlug it, as it was granted "without money and us from our friends, we can piotect ourselves without price." The distinction is too plai,.to besaeufomorfinswecnpoetorele covered u p with distidion,is too peobiteraiito be from our enemies." His svmpathy for uis is uindoubt sophveredlyistry, oir to he obiteriated byus fredenunciation. Every vote against it is in effect a quI ed umst fe vote to compel the people to pay taxes to redeem a querit and unusistakalile evidenc part of their own political sovereignty from the grasp I did not intend to have prolonged this debate by of a privileged class. Nopossible injustice cou d be sayino anything in favor of this ameiidnieiit, aind done to the stockmolders. If property is takeii or should not have done so if it had oct been violently destroyid, its value is paid; if injured by the iepeal, attacked by others. The very language of the aimendthe injury is made good,let it be more or less. What- meut is taken almost literally froim the spe,ech of the ever of property has been embarked under the charter gentleman from Butler, [Mr. VANcE,] made on a foris fully protected. But, in inaiiy cases, the exclusive nier occasion. I sat at the feet of Gamaliel, and supprivilege conferred for many years to come, are worth pof.d I bad learued my lessoi right. I refer al opmoie by fer than all the property invested. When poses of this amenduiceit hereafter to him, and hope the public good requires these to be rescinded, we do lie will come to the rescue, and vindicate his own ot esteem it "plunder" to do so, without going into principles from their ruthless assaults. the treasury and paying for what already helougs to -Mr. BROWN of Carroll. It would hardly seem us. It will be seen that the pmposition of the gentle- to be necessary to say anything more upon this vexedi man from Franklin, IMr. SwAN,] extends to all corpor- question; it secines to have haunted this Couvention ations of every kind, and protects them againist alter- from the time whln we first took our s( ats upon this ationn, as well as the repeal of their cliarteirs. If. as floor to the present hour. This question has seem:,ed contended, their franchises are prioperty, no bank to be always before us. Like BaIiquo's ghost, "it will charter could be repealed under this provision, with- never dowi" I had contented msyseif with the opotut paying what it would be wortli until its expira- portinity of giving a silent vote upon this question. tion; nor could they be so far "altcied" ais to tax But now, since the cloven foot, has been exhibitedthem like other properDy, without payving them all since we have been asked by the gentleman from damagts! All you ~ot (of increased tax, you must Trumbi 11 (Mr. RAx-riEx',) to vote for' a propositioni tax others to pay back to them! that ri0es riglht cvei the face of every hoinest man iin But who are these men whose advocates on this. the country. 1, also, am prompted to ocorip a share floor are ready to denonunce the people as thieves and of the tinie which is to be consunied iii this discusplunderers, should they take fr'om them their exclii- sion. The geritleman says that my friend behind rue sive privileges without paying all daniages? What here, [Mr. STAN'TON,] is a good representative of the paiticular merit do they possess that justifies such old Federal party. I hope then he will uct take it in arrogance aud impudence?. What right to coutinuc any offensive seuse if I tell the gentleiman from Trunito do what is ruinous to others? Wlhat pretecce for bull, (MIr. RANNEY,) that in mcy judgiuent he is a good 622 hills of the ea,terii part of the State. y eople e this t has made a grant to certain corpora ter their plotest araiLnst all these ultra doctrines. tors, ald( upon lhe faiith of that grant thee corporaNot one of those who lhave sent me here, nor manyv of tors have expended nmoney. The grant may have thlose who voted against Ine, will supp)rt thlis doc- ben for the pivilege of a railroad, upon the faiit of tr-in(-. 1 say, therefore, and so help Int God, if the which hutndi-eds of thousands have beenll expended, Demiocratic party here shall persist in pressing this and tle aixendment of the gentlemas from Truabull, lunconstitutional provision upon 115, I will go from (Mi. i/A.\NE.,) provides that if such a franchise should this city lrigt ito tlhe field.aigainst the ado)ption of )e rnpealed. its value should not be estimnated in makthe Cooistitution. I know that ioy people are watch- inlu compensation for the corporate property. ig jealously the course of this C)nvention; for they Ir. RIANNEY, (in hIis seat.) I a il win'ii( to pay are inquiiring of mie, wvek b)v wveelc: What is to be for all the property taken. the deter'llination uponI this sibl);ect? And therefore it is that I tell gentlemniie that if thev will persis t in Mr. STAN ION. But not f or the franchise. But tiiis thinl,, we will throw ourselves upon our reserved at s a franbeaser of te bri e comrigrhts, asd tlharlk CGodl that the pe1)ple have to dcide pa,ny so often put, the right to take toll shi,ll be taken u gt,ndtheirnod t wat hepopl;ae'dckd atlxway, tile whole value of their bridge is gne, anld so u ~'pon *erwk,t las,t it would be with the property of a raihload coipai-iy Mr. STANTON. I havelistened, I think, vry pa- upon which miillions had beeii expended,-the motietn,ly to tlee discussion of thlis question. For aoout ine,tit that the right of transporting inerchlandize and thllirty days it has be(n1 confined to sonme ten speakers. passengers shold be taken away froi them, the But I confezss now that I am tired of it: aud[ if gen- whole property of the road would be worthless. tileinri are disposed to contilulle it any longer I have The Conveltion have prescribed iost stringent determiined to take a haud il it. Butt if the Colouv(n- provisions against the takigl away of the property tioii are so disposed, I am ready for the vote, and have of natural persons without conpl)ensation, and 1 hold not a wNorcl to s;ay. that for the very sanie rea.solns the property of corpo Mr. KlRKWOOD. M]r. President, I have desired rations should not be takein without conlpeilsation. to say something - But 10w the gentlei-amn from Trumrbull, [Mr. RAN Mr. STANTON. No sir, if any thin, is to be said NEY ] comes il and says to the General Assembly: I will claim the floor. But I have no very strong de- Youi mav repel charters even where the whole value fsire to m:~ke a speech. .3s ire to ni, ke a s pc-.'erh. q o f the property of tllhe company miay consist inl fran Mr. STANBERY moved thie previous question. alone-von ma- se but The question then being, "shall the mrlain question you shall have no pe.r to compe'usate them for it to be now pt?h the aniount of a single farthig. The gexntlemaii from Mr. LID EY demanded the yeas antd uavy, which Truiubull may take it as not very c)urteous to charwere ordered, and resulted, yeas 31, nays 62, as fol- acterize this proposition as it d(eserves; ald perliaps lows: it is not courteous to say that it is a proposition to YEAS —Messrs. Blair, Blickensderfer, Curry, Ewart, Ewing, legalize public plunder. But if the State make a corFarr, Flo, ne, Gil lett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Hard, pota rnt e lic t tize ha iveted Itoimes, Hootman, Humphieville, Liy, Loey o ludton,'porate -r,oeyt audeyio t hee teciin honast invested McCloud1, Orton, Patters n, nPeck, I Periis, iemity, auwd good yer, Scott of Auglaize, Sirlit of Wyalndot, Stanton, Stebbinls, f1ith1 of the Legislature of tlhe State, that grant caiiiiot T ownsheni, V~lo an oodbury-t31 N'owhsltd, Wilsoi ai,l Woodbury-3 areofon1 Ibe taken away without the practice of dishonesty and N~.vs- Melssrs. Anidrews; Arcliboid, Ba,,rbee, Barnet of Mont the gitof punder. goiery, Barinett of Pieble B,ites Browrn of Alietiio, Bront- e uilt f d of Carroll, Cahill, Cse of cking, Case of Lict'iug Chaney, I an for looking this thing right in the face, Mr. Collis Cook, Cutler, Forbes, G reerl f itoss, Greg, Croes- President, aind I will take aiiother case. A grant is beck, Harnilton, flarln, IHawkirs, Hen,lerso, Hflitchock of made to an individual by iname, aiud a privilege is Cuyaho-,a Hitchcock of Geauga, H-orton, Ht Hu nt er coiiferrec and money is invested so that the whole Johnsono, Jones, Kin. Kirk wood, Larsi, Laiwionce, Larwill l]eech, Leadbetter, Mason, MIitchell, Morehead, McCormick, value of tle investment is made to consist in the right Nash, Norris, Otis. Quigley, Raniiiley, Ridlie, Scott of Har- to take toll or the right to transport merchandize and SV1;,'ft,i., r, Siii.i; a';o ii,,inid, Smih of Warren, Staebn, —, passegcrs. Yet you say thle State may take away OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14. e' only fast friends of the repeal doctrine,) would fix up. s They tell us that the General Assembly is an unsafe body-that it can be imposed upon, cheated, even cor rupted-that moneyed men can procure the passage - through that body of almost any kind of charter they may desire, for which reason it would be grossly un just to pay for franchises which may be thus improp erly obtained. Whether the General Assemlbly has been thus weak or corrupt, I cannot say. That the 1 have granted charters such as I could not have voted for, I know, but I cannot for this reason say they have been corrupt. But admit all these gentlemen say, and what then? Why this-that the General Assenm r bly is not a fit body to determine the question of how i much compensation, if anv, should be made upon the repeal of a charter. Do not gentlemen perceive that the same weakness or tile sanme corruption which was operated on to procure the granting of a charter im properly may also be as easily-say more easily opera ted upon to give improper compensation in case of the repeal of a charter? Mr RANNEY. Who does the gentleman refer to as making the charge of corruption? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I do not desire to name gentle men in this connection; but I certainly have under stood gentlemen who oppose the paying for franchises in any case, do assign as their reason for that oppo sition, that these franchises are frequently procured by bringing improper appliances to bear on the Gen eral Assembly, and firequently procured through ei ther the weakness or corruption of that body, and that therefore it is wrong to pay for things thus im properly obtained. The argument is their's-not mine-if it will not work well both ways it is not my fault. I have always been opposed to taking this question of compensation away from the courts. I have not voted for any proposition, the effect of which, as I understood it, would be to take this question from the courts, and I will not so vote. I am willing to send this question, as well as all other questions touching the rights of our citizens, to the courts-to a sworn jury acting in presence of an intelligent and indepen dent court-thllat court elected by the people. To such a tribunal I trust my life, my liberty, rny property, and such a tribunal I will trust to do right and jus tice in this class of cases. The amendment of the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. SWAN,] proposes to send this question of com penisation to the courts-whether in just the proper imanner is to be hereafter considered-and the amend meiit of the gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] proposes that in no case shall the franchise of a re pealed corporation enter into the verdict or be com pensated for. The effect of the amendment is that although to refuse some compensation for the fran chise, should do any injustice, yet no compensa tion for the franchise shall be made. That gentleman, to show how unjust it would be to pay for a franchise, instanced the refusal of a bank charter. I agree with the gentleman there, but let me give him an instance in which I think a repeal to pay for the franchise would be equally unjust. Take the so much talked of case of a bridge company. They have expended one hundred thousand dollars in building a bridge, and have the privilege —the franchise-to take toll for twenty years to repay themselves.:Now witholut this franchise, this right to take toll, the bridge is worth nothlinl to the corporato~rs-without that it won't yield a cent unless t-hey Dull it dowel and sell the ma-terials. Suppose the public good shall require a repeal of the charter or an appropriation of the bridge to the public use, how much shall be paid to the cm,)orators? The value of the materials? Would that grant if epeae eque i t the public welfare require it. But the gentlema n from Trtumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] undertakes to say that althou gh t he p ubl ic welfare may require ito b to be take away, yet you shall not res,tore to the individual one single farthing's worth of his invest nient. Mr. RANNEYl, [in his seat.] No such thing has been said. Mr. STANTON. What then is the proposition be f, re us? It is that the franchise shall not be included ill the estimate of compensation, and the whole value of investment is in the franchise. The gentleman front Trumbull, [Mr. RANl-sEY,] has anoth er mode of arguing here, which might do very whell in t he Fifth Street Market, but I can tell him that it will not suit here. He tells you that you are about making comp ensation for old broken do w n and rotten corporations, and for charters th at have been vi olated. But ev ery man who knows any thing of this disc ussion moust be perfectly aw are that no member upo n this fl o or has claimed any such thing. pBe- sides, every man knows that a corporation which has viola ted its charter cannot, in law, be entitled to one far thing in compensation. A breach of a c or porat e charter is civil death to the corporation. They are not only not entitled to compensation for their fran chise, whic is taken away, but they are not entitled t o their own propert y any fur ther than as it m ay be applied to the payment of their-debts. Butthe real question is, shall the exercise of this pow er of unqualified repeal extend to those corporations who are going on without any violation of their charter in the exercise of their appropriate powers and duties, as contemplated in the law of their creation. When such charter is repealed the question is whether the General Assembly shall be permitted to remunerate,the corporators? It is not, Will you trust the General As. sem,bly to make compensation? But will you permit them to do it? The gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] says no: and that it is federal WhiggetT which makes an affirmative answer. Well, I am not only willing, but I shall be thankful ever to be re garded as a federal Whig upon such a test as this. Mr. KIRKWOOD. I am. told by some friends around me that by the remarks I am about to make, and the vote I am about to give, I will kill myself politically. I hope not-certainly I do not so intend. If others should think I ought to have execution done upon me for these remarks and that vote, I have only to say that I hope they will permit it to be done by those who alone, in my opinion, have the legiti mate right to do it-my constituents. My opinions upon this subject of repeal are as I have stated on another occasion, that the General Assembly should and does possess the power to repeal all existing charters, as well as those which have been acted uinder in good faith and in strict accordance with their terms as those whose terms have been violated —whenever the public good shall so require, and that upon such repeal the corporators should have the right to go into our courts and have just and equitable compensation in case any wrong has been done them by such repeal. Other gentlemen, (if I understand them,) who agree with mne about the power to repeal, are, however, of opinion that our courts should be closed to the corporators, and that the General Assembly should have not only the power to repeal but also the pow~er to fixs finally and conclusively the terms of the repeal —to determine whether any, and if any, how much compensation shall be given to the corporators. In this opinion —closing our courts to these corporators —I cannot concur. Let us for armoment examine the kind of repealing machine which these gentlemnen, (who by the way claim to be the 624 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14. that be just? Well, the value of the bridge before the repeal? But then you would be paying for the franchise, for it is the franchise that gives it any value greater than the value of the materials. Gentlemen say such a case will never occur-that if a company does its duty-acts in accordance with the terms of its charter, the charter will never be repealed. How do they know? Does not the Genera] Assembly sometimes act weakly-improperly? These gentlemen say so. But these gentlemten, and I concur in opinion that they should have the power to repeal all charters, and I at least, am of opinion the power should be exercised whenever the public good shall require, whether the charter has been violate d or not, and I wis h the matter so arranged that justice may be done in all cases. The gentleman from Trumbull says he desires his amendment to prevail lest bank charters may hereafter be paid for. Now, I am as desirous of getting rid of banks as that gentleman well can be, but I am not willing, in order to deal a blow at them, to strike through other, perhaps innocent institutions. Mr. MITCHELL said that so far as the gentleman from Richland killing himself was concerned, he, [Mr. MITCHELL,] had nothing to do with that. It was a matter he must leave to that gentleman, and whether he shall kill himself here or at home, or elsewhere, was nothing to this body. He could not, it was true, but feel chagrined and mortified at the late defection of that gentleman. That this defection existed was not new to him, but he must confess he had been fully acquainted with the full extent to which the feelings of the gentleman from Richland had operated upon him. No one, indeed, can realize the extent of these feelings but those of us who have just heard his last remarks and those of this morning. The feeling, the zeal for his new position and its friends, and the bitterness manifested towards his Democratic brethren now abandoned, can only be realized by those who have heard his remarks and witnessed the spirit in which they were made. I have a word or two to say in regard to the position assumed by the gentleman fromt Butler, [Mr. VANCE.] His course in the last twenty-four hours has placed him in a new position. This same subject has been before discussed in this Convention, but it has only been this afternoon that the right side has been taken. We have until now been kept away from the true issue by the tergiversations of gentlemen upon this side of the house. Now let us look where the gentleman from Butler stands. I hold in my hand a speech delivered by that gentleman on the 28th of December, 1850, to be found upon page 196 of our proceedings and debates, and in that speech he occupies exactly the reverse of the proposition he assumes now. I will read an extract from page 194 of the report of the debates and proceedings of this Convention since its commencement here. The gentleman from Butler, [Mr. VANCE,] was then discussing this very subject, and he said: "Nor would I include in the estimate the value of the FRANCHISE." Now in the name of all that is sacred, is that printed ri ght? Or has the gentleman lost all recollection of what he has been doing here? But he goes on in the printed speech: "Merely the property other than the franchise." This is the sum of his speech on this very subject upon that occasion. Now let him go and reconcile if he can, his abuse of the confidence of a deceived people. This is all the trouble, if you only include the proposition to pay for' the franchise, it will all be right. Gentlemen wedded to corporations and their interest, would be glad to h ave the power to r epeal often exercised. II they ever get pay for their franchise t hey wil be con tent. But will gentlemen tell me wher e t he Leg islature of the State obtained the p ower o r the righ t to give to six or eight citizens of the State a privileg e w hich ca nnot be recovered without pay ing the m fifty thousand d, liars for it. Who gave them this right to confer privileges upon particular persons w ho pa y no more taxes than others-who are no more ready than others to defend the country i n w a r? Wh ere did they get the right to give to these persons, out a nd out, so valuable a privilege, in such a manner that it cannot be touched unles s i t is paid for? Aye, sir, the exercise o f such a power as this by any legislative body representing free men is a disgrace to th e land of Columbia, and the time will come when it will be so re garde d by all. Sir, the State governments in this country have no right to confer such a privilege; the exercise of such a power is usurpation. It is corrupt and unjust! unjust in all its effects and consequences, and whenever, through want of foresight, or from any other cause, such privileges have been conferred, discriminating between citizens where equality should prevail, they ought to be put an end to. Away then with the idea that when these privileges are taken which have been granted without right, and the exercise of which are injurious, we should take the people's money and pay for them. Sir, our governments in this country are not fountains of honors and profits to be conferred upon favorite,; but they are simple governments vested with the power to pass such laws, from time to time, as the good of society may require. This is the limits of our State governments; they can rightfully go no further than this. They cannot rightfully deal out privileges to a few which may not rightfully be enjoyed by all. And whteever it is found that they have done so, I vould like to know the man whose mind is so blinded by prejudice, that he could stand up here and say that those favored few who have got these advantages of others in the community should be allowed to hold on to them. Sir, if I desired to test any ma-in's political views to find out whether they were republican or not, I could not propose for this purpose a better test question. There was one position assumed by the gentleman from Richland, (Mr. KIRKWOOD,) this morning, which divulged the true workings of his heart. He did not hesitate then to arraign the Legislature, and attack, with wonderful zest, its integrity in this matter of granting charters heaping all the odium and blame on them. If sir, in an unfortunate hour, the Legislature should so far forget its dutv as to grant charters, which might have an injurious effect in hindering or utterly preventing the development of the true characteristics of our republican institutions, the procurers of such a charter are to go unwhipped of justice. Nothing escapes from the democratic lips of that gentleman to scathe such men as these. No sir, when they have got that advantage-procured as the price of their infanly-they cannot be asked to part with it, no word of reproof is due to them. Oh no! But if he could only get hold of those legislatures which have acted in this way he would teach them the just deserts of their misdoings. But how does this evidence ally feeling of interest with the great mass of mankind, in most other governments down trodden and oppressed? Does it not rather give evidence that his heart only beats in unison withl all that which would advances the interests of the wealthy and influential few of the masses; and that he belongs to a party well known before the formationl of this government, the line of whose descent has not been broken for the last two thousand years'/ 625 626 01-11O CONVENTION DEBATES-FRFDAY, FEBRUARY 14. So much for thise geitlemati's opposition to this invalu- of voting it out again along with the amendment of able right of repeal. the gentleman froin Franklin. Now as to the amendment proposed, I sir, think this M;. RANNEY next addressed the chair, but gave past tile point-the true essential differet)ce between way, [under the rule,] for us ont this whole subject. I canno1 t go for'lthis proposi- Mr. LARSII, who claimed the floor, unless the vote tion because I think the people would not receive tihe could be then taken. restoration of their lights upon such ignominious cont- Mr. RANNEY. Will you sit down or will you go dition.s; for if inequality has been created amongst citi- oni? zens, they ought to have the right to destroy that ine- Mr. LARSH. If the vote is to be taken I will set qtality wvithout being compelled to pay a price for the down, otherwise I will go on. exercise of that clear and essential right. Several voices.-,"Go oil," "go on." One word as to the doctrine that a franchise is Mr. LARSH, then proceeded to notice the war property, I have discovered throughout the whole which had b ei gotten up amongst his friends over the couise of this argumenit, thlat geniletiei are disposed to way, expressing his desire to pour oil upon thoso catchl up some utnteenable ground, and dwell upoi troubled waters of the "southern hetlisphere." that; and tell us that we are wvilliitg that goverunnetit He then wenit into the probable effects of this doe should have the right to take a bri,:ge or a turnpike trinte of repeal if it were to be in)corporated in the that has been used for a public way, and which has Constitution, as now strenuously insisted upon by his cost a large outlay of money on the part of thie pro- friends of the " southern hemisphere." It would prietors; whilst we denty to tke goverumeit the right place a large portion of the people of the State at the to take a man's farm whlich he has received from the mercy of the General Assembly. Thiis power might hand of nature, and which has perhaps, cost him little be held by the Geniteral Assembly in terrorim over the or nothing by way of ini)roverment. heads of that portion of the State who might be in Bu'. here these geotlemen labor under a great mis- terested in corporations with the threat that if they did take. T'Ihe goverrinment never conferred upon any not vote for such judges and such state officers as they bridge or turnpik, company the right of way. The might dictate, thev would repeal every charter in the company have to purchase that. It is the right of the State, and it seemned to his mind that they would be franchise —the exclusive privilege which the govern- able to accomplish their object most.ffectually. ment has given, and which they can eijoy only after It has beein conttended that the General Assembly having purchased the right of way. The governuelieit could Inot pass a law which would bind a succeedii,g have no righlt to talie away from them this right of General Assembly. This declarationi seemed to go up. way. The goveriitient clai only take away the frau- o11 the principle that tie General A.se-itbly was the chise. They leave tihert iii the possession of all their State; atid that whenever tile General Asserrmbly should property to use it as they riiay see proper. adjourn sine die the State would have to die and be re It has been contended that a man catitiot purchase rived again by tke meeting of the next General As the right of way, construct a bridge, or a turnpike, or sembly. But this was not the doctrine which he had a railroad, anid take pay for the use of them; but I been taught. He could inot see how the Stale could go contend, sir, that if a man owns a farm through out of existence it this way. And if hlie nimi,self could which a stream rnits which is impassable, he may, if make a contract no-day which he could not repeal to. he choose, erect a bridge, wlhe li he will undoubledly rto row, he was unable to see any good reason why the have the power to charge for passage over it whatever Getieral Assembiy might lif t do the same thig. The lie may contract for. Can there be any difference be- State was a living principle. Its existenice was prolong tween this and constructing a private ferry, a right ed from time to time, and it was not etn cut off inot disputed? If governtnetit shoul(d choosetoappro- bythe means of such a Conventon as this, which was priate its use to the public, as a highway, or othier- assetobled, not to abolish, but to re-construct anid im wise,, they must pay for it most certainly. The case is prove the government of the State. II' lie was right in lot difftreit with a coti)paijy. If thie State take away this consideration, the whole argument about the ita the franichise of bridge owiners, they may shut up their bilitv of otine General Assemibly to find a succeeding gate. Still they have their right o(f'way, and as pri- General Assembly would hleave to fall to the ground. vate individuals in case their property is secured to He supposed this argumenet had not been titaturely con. them as I contenid it should be, atid always by a just sidered by gentlenmen. Hle could not think that they Legislature would be, tihety can contract for its use believed the doctrine themselves. just as if they had never had a charter. Mr. BARNET of Motitgoritery, thought in all con It is true that the State might make a road around science, that we had enioughli of this debate, and theresuch a bridge, but still the owner could have just as upon he demanded the previous question. good a right to contract for the use of his property, as The demand hlaviug been seconded by five members, a private ferryinan has to charge for taking a passen- and the question, shail the mnain question be now put? ger across the river. being announiced by the chair, If the State shouldI appropriate the properly to pub- Ar. RAI\ NEY cideriant(ied the yeas and nays, and the lie use, then it must be paid for as in other cases. same being ordered and taiketi, resulted, yeas 44, nays Tne State then has no right, I maintain, to take away 50;, as follows: property except upon the principle argued by myself Y4s —Messrs. Archboid, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, the other day in atiswer to the position assumed by Bates n tmert, Blair Blickaensderfer Brown of Carroll the getitlemati from FrankJin, (IMr. SWAN). F;or tak- ahllil, base ot Hoclitig, Chaney, weart, Ewine., Floretnee, ilg property on such principles, we have of Defiance, Bard, Hawbindat, this rp~brtalread. a o utyHortton ttumphrevtl iletiuter, Lidey, Mason, Mitchell, prtividad 1] hl rt'I~rt dlre~ldy. Hl.orehlea Morris, M~Cloud, Patterson, Peck, Perkitis, Saw. Mr. ARCHBOLD wished to define his.position. Ie yer, xcottof Harison, i;cott of Auglaize, Setlets, tSmtilth of was opposed to the whole matter of buying out cor- arren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery,,Stanton, Stebbinr, poratious; and he wished to do the most inijutry that he s —Messr.Atindrews Barnett ot Preble, 4 erot of could to the amendment of Itie gentleman front Frank- Athens,Case of Licking, Cuttings Cook Coiry Cutter Farr oin (Mr. SWAN,) ttor did he like very enuch the good-'_orbes, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, HIarln' ly features of the amelutneut of the gentlenuati from Hendersoti, Hitchcock 6If Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Trumbull, (Mr. RANKLY,) And if he voted for putting Holmes, Hootman, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirk wood Trumbuli, (Mr. Ra ~:r,) a nd.f.a'oted. or. utting Latsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Loudon, MCarmick, Fnor. that amendment in, it would be with the expectation ris, Orton, Otis, Quic'!ey, Hanney, Reemelin, Riddle, Smith o f OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 14. '- California. That has to be worked! The privileges , here work themselves! He would ask, if it was good morality to require the people, whose rights had been trifled with and traM ded away, to require them to pay for the recovery n of those rights7 d The gentleman from Richland had made this argu. e ment: The franchises of all incorporated companies n were obtained from the agents of the people; and that r the people as principal, were responsible for the acts of their agents. But he affirmed that that position could s not be maintained for a moment. These agentsof the c people have their written authority before them, and whenever they transgressed that authoritythey commito ted a fraud; and the principal was never bound by the , fraudulent act of the agent. Who did not know that r fraud was practiced in obtaining these charters of in corporation? Why, the corporators tIkemselves passed ' their own charters,almost. It was notorious that bank presidents and railroad company presidents drafted their t own charters, and made the General Assembly but the o registers of their will in these c'ases. Therefore they , were all frauds upon the community; if they violated the great basis of all our laws. equality of rights and ' equalitv of Iburthens. How, then, could it be right to require the people to D pay for the repeal of these charters? I trust I will not be charged with profanation in making here a refer ence to the sacred scriptures, while men are inatteng tive all around me. But when sophistry is doing its best, to subdue. the people, we must quote the highest authority for the doctrine for which we are pleading He could refer to the example of our Saviour, when he went up the Temple, and when he found around the o ltside of that magnificent building, stalls and tables rented, where men were authorized to sell ta pigeons and trade in money. Did he stop to pay thlem for their franchises? Did he regard their priv ileges, which they had by law? No! he drove them out with a scourge, saying to them, "It is written, my father's house shall be called a house of prayer, but ye have made it a den of thieves." There was no compensation for the taking away of privileges there. The mild Jesus was the first repealer! Sir, (he continued,) the people have a right to meet here and reform their organic law, and reconstruct their constitution by our hands; and we have already t asserted that all power is in the people. They have the right to revolutionize-to dig up the whole struc ture of our old government and scatter it to the winds. And to say that the people cannot repeal a char ter is just about as reasonable as it would be to say that the proprietors of this building cannot remove the canvass which we have suspended in this Hall, whilst thev might take away the onter walls and the foundation. This declaration would be just as reasonable as it is to declare that the people may take down the whole structure of government, whilst these cobwebs of legislation must remain. Sir, should we perpetuate power in the hands of those who have robbed us? or when we want to get our rights back, must we do it purse in hand? Gen tlemen declare that this would be right, but I will not vote for it, because it is not right thus to court legisla tion, which is in violation of our rights as freemen.. It is precisely this class of legislation which we in tend to reach; and let me tell you, sir, in behalf of the. people of the State of Ohio, that if you do not give them a legal means to regain their rights by repeal,. they will have them back by revolution. "Privileges must have an end, but the people is eternal." Privil, eges have been put down by the people of Pennsyl' vania, and by our people, when the law fails to glve. the remedy, then the people must take the matter in. Highland. Slilwell, Stickney. Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thomp son of Shelby.'I'hompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren Wilson and Worthington-50. So the main question was not ordered. Mr. KIRKWOOD supposed he ought to feel ex ceedingly flattered by the declaration of the gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] that he Mr. R., hac heretofore been following his Mr. K's, lead, but he mu st d ecline the compliment Perhap s the gentleman had made the declar ation in ordertocomfort him unde his supposed affliction for the speech he had just made Although h e fully a ppreciated the k indn es s of thil course, he must be permitted to say it was entirely un necessary as he felt quite comfortable. He inquired if he had understood the gentleman tc say, he would pay the members of a bridge company for the injury they might sustain by the repeal of theii charter? If so, every cent paid to them over and above the value of the materials, used in building the bridge would be paid for the franchise. Why, what is the injury? The amount of the loss. What is the amount of the loss? The value of Ihe bridge before the repal with the franchise attached. Now if that be paid for the franchise is paid for. But this was not according to the terms of the gentlemal's amendment; for that pro vides that in no case shall the franchise be paid for. Mr. RANNEY, (in his seat,) was understood to deny that he had been correctly represented. Mr. KIRKWOOD thought that he had understood the gentleman correctly, but it appeared he had misunderstood him, and other gentlemen on this point. When gentlemen had argued the propriety of leaving the matter of compensation to the General Assembly, and were told the General Assembly would have power to refuse compensation in a case such as the one put, they had said that the General Assembly would not refuse sUcit compensation, and it was not right to distrust that body —that, that body would do right, and yet these gentlemen now desire to deprive the courts of the power to do the same thing,they had said the General Assembly would do. They had said in their speeches,that the General Assembly would compensate for the franchise in such cases, and now. Mr. MITCHELL. No sir, the gentleman is mista. ken again. Mr. KIRKWOOD. Well "the book" will settle all that. But not only in their speeches, but over and over again in private conversation had he understood these gentlemen to say, that the General Assembly would do the very thing which they are desirous of depriving the courts of the power to do. Mr. REEMELIN said the vote, he supposed, was now to be taken upon the proposition of the gentle man from Franklin, (Mr. SWAN,)-a proposition which he considered dangerous. The object of the amendmenit proposed, by the gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,) was to protect the tax-payers, and therefore, he was disposed to vote for it. He was disposed, as far as he was able to go, to protect the people of Ohio from being fleeced. There were now in the State of Ohio,) Trore than ten thousand incorporated companies. The value of their franchises, was such that the mines of California were not rich enough to purchase them. Why! what do these franchises, these exclusive privileges amount to? They amount to this, that they have a perpetual vested right to the labor of the people of Ohio, the labor of two millions of free people} even now, and soon to be three mnillions. Exclusive privileges amon g such a people, are worth a good deal. The privilege of standing as toll collector, either as banker or in other money making corpora tiens, at the outlets, which labor must seek among' such a peoples is worth more than the best mnine ill 41 627 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 15. their own hands. Congress has put down Nick Bid dle's Bank, but still in the State of Ohio the charter of the Bank of Wooster, and of the Bank of Canton, and the Miami Exporting Company, remain. But where are those men who have opposed their repeal? Aye, sir, they hide themselves from the just public odium which attaches to their public acts in respect to these institutions. Like the gentleman from Mor gan, (Mr.HAwKIts,) they attemptto screen themselves behind names, whose sound reverberates honorably in democratic hearts. Sir, I will vote against every proposition which is calculated to prop up and support corporations, in their special privileges and their vested rights, in this State. We should endeavor to enable the people to remove any thing that is opposed to equal rights. Bu t if, in consequence of the repea l of any charter, ally bona fide property of honest men should be affec ted by it, then that becomes another question. And in such a case the Legislature should exercise a wise discretion in the matter of repairing the injury. A different rule would have it apply in every such case as this-no general rule could be provided. The at tempt'itself would involve us in sheer absurdity. This I have frequently stated, and I repeat it again sound truth cannot be spoken too often. I desire the people to be left as free as the corpora tions in this contest against privileges. I do not want the people to go into court handcuffed, or tied hand and foot by a construction, which must be the result of the adoption of the amiendment. There has been one case in the present history of Ohio, wherein a corporation, through the mandate of the Supreme Court, put its hand into the treasury to in demnify itself, in violation of the laws of Ohio. Our sovereignty was then trailed in the dust. And this precedent may warn the people of Ohio, for often hereafter may it occur, if these gentlemen succeed in establishing the rule by which the treasury is made chargeable for the indiscretions of legislation. I want to guard the treasury! I want to restrict the taxing power to its legitimate purpose, for I agree with the principle laid down by the gentleman from Monroe, (Mr. ARCHBOLD,) that taxation should only be resorted to for the support of social order. Aye, sir. I tell these gentlemen that we shall meet them again at Philippi. WNVe shall see them again before the people. We shall ask the people of cuyahoga and of Monroe, whether they are wriling that they shall be taxed for charters repealed in old Hamrnilton?. Sir, I shall put this question to the people, and see if they will not scout the proposition to rob them of their money after they have been robbed of their rights. ,Mr. HAWKINS remarked that as the lobbies were full, it was certainly a very good occasion for gentlemen to make their ad captanduin speeches; and it was upon this account, he supposed, that the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. REEMEILIN,) had seen proper to allude to a certain vote which he gave once in the General Assembly. Well, if the gentleman could amuse himself and his constituents, in this way, he did not object; but he denied that he had attempted to shield himself behind any man's name. He needed no such shield as that, and had mnade no sulch resort. But the gentleman had paid a poor complaint to a portion of his colleagues of the hard money school, by assuming that they had sold out the rights of the people; for he could point to dozens of them upong that floor who had aided in the sale of those rights. When he had concluded there were loud calls for the question on every side, but Sir.,UNT moved that the Convention do now adjourI1, Mr. PECK demanded the yeas and nays which were ordered, arid being taken, resulted-yeas 28, nays 59, as follows: YA,s-.Messrs. Blickenslerfer. Chaney, Greene of Defiance Gregg, Groesbeck, Hootman, Hunt, Larwill, Leech, Lead better, Lid y. Mitchell, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wy. andot, StiLkney, Stidger, Swan, Thompson of Stark, Towns hend, Warren and Wilson —28. NA&Ys-Messrs. Andlews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomiery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hock ing, Collin,s, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins. Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Horton, Humphreville Hunter, Johnson, Jones, King, RKirkwool, Larsh, Mason, Mo rehead, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harlison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton. Stilwell, Struble, Vance of Butler,Wood, bury antt Worthington-59. So the Convention refused to adjourn. Mr. LIDEY moved a call of the Convention. Mr. LEECH demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted —yeas 43, nays 46, as folIlows: YzAs —Messrs. Barbee,Bennett,Blair, Cahill,Chaney,Curry, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defianice, Gregg. Hard, Hitch cock of Geauga, Holmes, Hootiman, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, ILeech. Lead better, Lidey, L,oudoni, Mitchell, McCormick, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Scott of Auglaize. Sellers, Smith of Wyanidot, Stanbery, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Thompson of' Stark, Townshend, WNarreni, Wilson-43. NAYS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnetof Montgomery Barnett of Preble. Bates, Blicikeinsderfer, Brown of Athens' Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Licying, Col. lings, Cook. Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hanmilton, Harlan, Hawkins' HIitchcock of Cuyahoga, Horton, Hunter, Larsh, Mason. ]Morehead, Moreis AIcCloud Nash Norris Otis, Peck, Per IiiDs, Riddle, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Smith of War' i ren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell. Taylor, Vance of Butler Woodbury and Wlorthington-46. So the motion for a call of the Convention was rejected, and then, On motion of Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize, the Convention adjourned. ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTEENTH DAY. SATURDAY, Feb. 15, 1851,1 9 o'clock, A. M l The Convention met parsuant to adjournm ent. The Pres id ent of the Convention, Mr. MEDILL, being absent, Mr. NAS ih mo ved, that Mr. SAWYER, m emb er from the cou nnty of A uglaize, be ch osen Presidentpro tempore; which was agreed to. Mr. SWIFT presented a petition from Martha J. Tilden and one hundred and two other females of Sunmit county, praying that the new constitution guaranty to women the same rights as are enjoyed by men, which on motion was laid on the table. Mr. LOUDON submitted the followin)g: Resolved, That from and after Moniday next, this Cf)nvention will hold night sessions, on every alternate evening, unless otherwise ordered. Mr. ORTON moved to amend the resolution by adding'the following: Provided, that no vote shall be taken, nor sh-:ll the yeas and nays be called, nor shall there be a call of the Conven, tion at saidnightsession; provided further, that a President and'Secretary pro tem. shall be elected each evening,. Mr. BENNETT movedthat theresolution and pending amendment be laid on the table; which was disagreed to. Mr MITCHELL moved that the resolution and pending amendment be indefinitely pestponed. On which motion Mr. AR.CHBOLD demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 71, nays 24, as follows; i i 628 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —SATURDAY, FLBRUARY 15. , ble rule and tribunal to determine the compensation ofwhich all men must acknowledge as an honest one. Ct No one can, or will deny, that the repeal of the of charter of an existing corporation injures, and in sonme l, cases destroys, the value of the property of the stock, holders. The franchise consists, among other things, ' of the right to use the property and to take tolls, as ', provided by the charter. It is a delusion to talk , about these franchises not being property, for these e' give to the property its real value. What would a title to a farm be worth, if held upon condition that f it should never be cultivated or used? - Mr. REEMELIN. What we denied is, that taking , away a franchise is alwajs an injury to acorpora' tion. Sir. SWAN. I know it is not always an injury, and when no injury, a jury will give no compenisa. tion; but what I insist upon is, that when an injury has been inflicted, there should be a corresponding compensation. f Are the certificates of stock of a railroad or turnf pike worth as much after as before the repeal of a t charter-and why? brecause the property of the cor poration can no longer be used as before-its fratnb chises-its right to use the property as before, is gone and destroyed. And now the gentleman fromn Trumbull proposes r by his amendment, to value the property of a corpo ration, as if they never had the right to use it in the r mode prescribed in their charter. My amendmient proposes a just and equitable comn. p ensation for any property of an existing corporation r injured or destroyed by repeal. The proviso of the , ge ntleman from Trumbull flatly contradicts this, atid says, for all injury or destruction to the value of the property, done by taking away the franchise, that is repealing the charter, shall not be computed or esti mated. Mr. President, I thought it would come to this. I have patiently waited for three or four weeks to test gentlemen's rule of compensation upon the repeal of existing charters; to bring them to an issue, and to see what they meant. We have now got it. It is in fact, repeal without compensation. Not what the property was worth at the time of the repeal, when it could be used, but what the property is worth, stripped and despoiled of its use, of the charter, and all the rights and uses incident to the charter. With such an issue, and upon such a question. I fearlessly appeal to the people, whether this is right, and whether they demand it. I know they do not. I Mr. KING. I want to ask the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. SwAN,) a question. In case of the repeal of a bank charter, would he give damages, and by what rule? Mr. SWAN. The same rule that I would apply.o any other existing corporation, or to any injury done to a citizen's property. If the State Bank of Ohio was repealed, and I was called into the jury box to decide the comrpensation, I would first ascertain the market value of the stock-suppose it was one hundred and twenty dollars on each share. I would then ascertain the amount of its surplus fund, and other assetssuppose they amounted to one hundred and fifteen dollars. The verdict and compensation would be the differenceo. Take the O hio Lif e and Trus t C om;any Her stock in market is worth onle hundred and two; her assets are worth one hulndred and one; the comnpensation would be one dollar; or if h~er assets were oDe hulndred and two, the ccmpensation would be nothing. There there war an artificial or-false valule put upon the stock, its value must be reduced to what it was really worth. If a tu~rnpike charter was repealed to make it a public highway,and3 the stock VEAs —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown o Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Lickin Chambers, Chaney. Collings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart hwing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green lo Ross, Hamnilton, Hard, Harlan, }litchcocli of Cuyahoga Hitchcock of Geauga, Hootrnan, Horton, Humphreville Hunt, Hunter, Jolhrson,Jones, King, Larsb, Lawrence, Leech Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash,Orton,Otis Peck, Quigley, Riddle, Scott of Harrison. Scott of Auglaize Smith of Highland, Smith ( f Warren, Stanbery. Stantk, n Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan. Taylor Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark. Tovn nslhend, Vance of Champaign, Warren, Woodlbury and Worthington-71. NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair. Cahill, Farr, Greene o Defiance, Gregg, Groeebecli, Hawkins, Henderson, Kirk wocd, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Morris, Norris, Patterson Ranney, Reemelin, Sawyer,Sellers, Smith of Wyaindot, Swift Way and Williams —o4. So the resolution and pending a mendme nt, were in definitely postponed. On m otion of Mr. BARNETT of Preble, the Con ventio n took up The Report No. 2 of the ctte ommit tee o the legislativedepartmnent, with pending amendments. The question pe nding being on the omendment Oo Mr. R.,NNEYo t o the amendment, to wit: Insert af. terthe word "law" the words "butw t he or v alu the u of the acc of incorpor ation or cororporate franchises as altered re voked,or repealed,shall notr be included in the estimation or comixpenlsation above provided for." Mr. SWAN said gentlemen had misconstrued the amendmnenit he had proposed. It did not provide, nor was it intend ed, that the State should pay for the property of existing corporations, when destroyed by re peal. I t left the General Assembly to sav who should pay, anid this was right. If a bridge corporation wa s repealed for the benefit of a township or county, and so as to make it a free bridge the city town orr county benefitted by the revocation of the Charter, should pay the damages. And how canithe gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. REEr.,ELIN,] consistently complain, even if it required the State to pay, when, according to his own proposition, in the 36th section of the Legislative Report, it is provided generally that compensation shall be made to corporations for property taken, and he has insisted that this provision covers and protects corporations under his section for the repeal of existing charters. Has that gentleman, or others who oppose the amendment I have submitted, contrived any mode of relieving everybody from mnaking the payment which is acknowledged on all hands, must be made by somebody, and to some extent. The rule of compensation is also complained of. The amendment provides that "just and equitable" compensation shall be made. Can the wit of man de vise a more,just and equitable" one? The tribunal to determine the compensation does not Split some gentlemen-they would rrobably prefer the General Assembly. The amendment proposes to submit the whole matter to a jury of twelve men -the very mnen who, it is said, wsvill have to bear their share in paying the amount of their own verdict. And yet gentlemen, eager to repeal existing charters, do nlot seem to like,suih a tribunal, but prefer to leave it to the General Assembly-who are described as a body easily smisled, liable to the influences of lobbys, as represented by some, almost corrupt-prefer leaving the whole matter to them. I prefer an honest jury of twelve mnen, It seems very strange, that upon a difference of opinion here Dabot the terms ulpon which the property of citizens sha~ll be taken, or its value destroyed, party lines should be drawn, and one member after another, and in detail, denounced, because some desire the mat~:er of compensation to be left, without ~provisicn, arid to the:e discretionl of the G~eneral AssemeblY, and others desire to recognize a just and ecluita 1 c r t a t v t t 629 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, FI-BRURAY 15. pretty good thing. My very democratic friend from Wayne having given his sani-tion to one of them, by becoming a director, is it strange that I should think they were not entirely anti-democratic and should be willing that some care should be taken of them? A gentleman asks me if 1 have any stock in a railroad. I answer I have. I have subscribed a small amount of stock, upon which I have paid the enormous sum of twenty-five dollars, and [ want to take care of it. Am I disqualified by interest to act in this matter? Now, Mr, President I will tell you how this thing appears to me. When the subject of corporatiorns is up, gentlemen talk all the time about ban} s. When If.talk of railroads and plank roads and turnpike roads, and say it is right to protect and take care of them, gentlemen throw in my face the bloody head of a bank. This statement of the question may be very pleasant to gentlemen who desire to choose the ground upon which to make their speeches, when their votes cover other and much broader ground, but its usefulness in developing truth is mnore questionable. By the proposition I have offered, I take this ground from under tihemn-Are they willing to comn to mine and help me protect rail roads anid p)anu k roads? What I say in the amendment which I have offered is this: that franchises as such are not to be paid for, but that when they are so connected with other propert y that a comrpensi.,tion for the other property alone would not be just and equitable, such compensation shall be made as is right and just in the premisesNow gentlemen cannot meet me with the declaration that I am in favor of paying for a bank charter, for the franchise of a bank is not connected with other property, or that I am advocating the payment for any franchise, even that of a rail road or plank road or turnpike Ioad or bridge, unless such payment is indispetsable, in order to do justice; and if they are willing to say that justice and righlt shall not be done, they iiiay say so —that is all. I will not say so. There is, Mr. President, another thing in this amendment. I have called a franchise property. Now I am a lawyer, not a very good one perhaps, but a member of the bar. I practice in some two or thre e counties in the state, including the one in which I reside. In the counties where I practice, it is the law that a frai.. chise is property. How it may be in Knox county, where uiy friend on the right, (Mr. MITCHIELL,) resides, I do not know. Up amonoig is, we look upon a franicishise as property, and there we are in the practice of calling things by their legal namnes —whenever we know them. I could not vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) which said that in no case should a frauclise be paid for, because cases mnight arise in which justice and right would require such payment. What I mean by my proposition is this, that when it shall beconie ncessary and proper for the General Assembly to repeal an act of incorporation, and its franchises are so connected with other property that payment for the other property alone would not do for the parties what right anid justice may demand, sich compensation shall be made at all events, as right aind justice may deniand —that in no case shall conipensation be allowed far a franchise unless right and justice do demand it, and if justice shall so demand, then and ihen only, shall com pensation be given. The words are plain, and no argument, no cocistructioin and 1o sophistry can vary their meanin~g. Mr. REEMELiN said it was strange that gentlemen could iiot understand each other. It was perplexing that gentlemen on this side of the house could not understand each other. He should vote against the amendment and would give his reasons. was worth only a half or third of what the stockholders paid for it, the compensation would be not what the stock cost, but what it was worth. Some gentlemen here have thrown out the idea, that it is claimed that the time for which a charter is to run, and prospective profits are to be paid for ob iths repe al. Such an idea is v ery strang e. It smacks of the rediculous. The Gen eral As sembly mig ht to-day re peal every charter now existio in the Sta te, and tak e th e whole property and franchi ses of every c orporation now in active opera tion, and use it for State purposes, and upo n a just estimate of its value, she would not pay for the atgregate what it has cost th e stockholders. The questioin being on the amendment, sMr. RANNEY dema nded the yeas a nd ntays, w h ic h were ordered, and resulted-yeas 46, nays 51, as follows: Yh.s-Mesgr s. Archbold, Blair, C hill, Chaney, tEwing Farr, Forbhes, Greenle of Defiance, G regg, Hard, H enderson Holmes Hootman, Humphi -eville, Hunt, Jones, K ing, Lv will,Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudoi, Mitchell,McCormic Noris, Ortoe, P'a-tterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sell rs, Smith of WI anlot, Stebbins, Sticknjey, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thomn-pson of Stark, Townshend, Way and Wilson — 46. NAYs-Messrs. Andrcivs, Barbee, Barnet. of Montgomery Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Bliclkensderfer, Brown ot Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Licliing, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham. Gray, Greeni of Rtoss, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hawkins, Harlatn. Hitchcock of C,;yahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter,.Johnson, Kirkwood, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, Morris, lNIcCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison,;mtllh of Highland,.SSmith of Warren,. tar bery, Stanton, Stillwel, Swaxa, Warren, Worthingtorl and Woodbury-51. So the amendment to the amendment was rejected. Theqiie:ast to be let alone; to be allowed to act as w.' 645 The question then being first on striking out section OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 17. and if their increase is not arrested, they must eventually sap the very foundations of our free institutions. Now is the time, and here, in the Constitution', is the place, to cut up the evil by the roots-to prohibit any increase of these "citadels in which the enemies of free government entrench and protect themselves, and from which they carry on their warfare against the institutions of freedom and the liberties of the people." But, sir, we were told repeatedly, when this subject was before the Convention, on a former occasion, that corporations are absolutely necessary in this country-that without their agency, our great objects of public convenience and necessity cannot be carried out. Is this true, sir? If it is, then, it must follow, that there exists an absolute necessity for violating the principles of this Government-that our boasted Republican form of Government, established by the sages and patriots of the Revolution, is impracticable! Rather, sir, than assume this monstrous conclusion, I must believe that the advocates of corporations are in error-that they have embraced a false doctrine. And in order, sir, to prove the utteI falsity of their assumption, by a practical illustration, we have only to refer to England. All, or nearly all, the banking, manufacturing, insurance and railroad companies in England, if I am correctly informed, are either private partnerships or joint-stock companies, for the payment of whose debts, the private property of the stock-holders is held to an unlimited extenit. Do not these facts, Mr. President, prove that the advocates of corporations are grossly in error? Do they not completely explode the miserable hminbug, that corporations are absolutely necessary in this country? Why, sir, if we could give full credence to the assertions of the advocates of corporations in this Chamber, we would be led to believe that we are indebted to corporations for almost all the blessings which we enjoy as a people; and that if the new Constitution should prohibit their creation, "Old Chaos" would resume his ancient reign, and every vestige of our prosperity would be destroyed! It is easy for gentlemen to assert that corporations are necessary, and that the public welfare imperatively deinalds their existence; but to prose the truth of these assertions would impose upon them an onerous task-a task infinitely beyond their power. Gentlemen may multiply such arguments as these which I have been noticing-if arguments they call them-until they are piled up like Ossa upon Pelion, and Pelion upon Ossa, but they will all prove to he mountains of mni.t' They will not staud the test. They will vanish before the test of truth and reason, like vapors before the rays of the morning sun. As well might gentlemen undertake to call up spirits frim the Vasty Deep, as to attempt to convince us that corporations are necessary, or beneficial, or proper, by empty declamation and bare assertions. Sir, I challenge the friends of corporations on this floor, to meet this question Ilke men, and prove to us, if they can, by fair and legitimate argument, that corporations are either consistent with the principles of this Governmeiit, or necessary to promote the public wetf fre. I contend, sir, that all our great objects of public convenience, or utility, or necessity, can be far better carried out by joint-stock companies and private associations than they can by corporations. M~r. President, my position on this subject, is strictly in ac-ordance with the publicly declared sentiments of the Democratic party of this State. In opposing all corporations, I stand upon the platform laid down by the Democracy of Ohio That party, in State Con. vention assembled, on the eighth of January, 1846, adopted, among.t other resolutions, the following:' " Resolved, That the Democracy of Ohio are opposed to all CHARTERED AND SPECIAL PRIVILEGES, as destructive to equality and hostile to free institutions; and from henceforth and fortver, declare againstthem, UNCOMPROMISING E'ObTII,ITY.' This, sir, is the position of the Democracy of O"hio Upon the subject of corpora tions. They have declarIed ag,ainst them, "UNCOMPROMISING HOSTILITY." Such is my position. Mv vote shall attest the sincerity of my professions. And here, I will remark that I trust I will be pardoned for raising this "test of Democracy." The Convention will bear witness to the fact, that in relation to this matter of "tests of Democracy," I have heretofore been exceedingly modest! [Laughter.] I, therefore, take the liberty, now, of calling upon my Democratic friends in this chamber —and particularly upon those who, in the language of a certain gentlemaD in this body,'shave cracked the party whip, and clanked the party chains" -to come up to the support of my amendment, and byits adopton carry out what I have shown to be a cardinal principle of the Democratic party of this State. I am well aware, sir, that to hope to carry this amendment, would be vain-that it would be "hoping against hope." I know too well the sentiments of this body, to entertain any such hope or expectation. But I shall not be overawed by *the bold array" of opposing numbers. I know I am right, and that knowledge is sufficient to impel me to action. I know, too, that I shall not stand alone in support of this motion. There are a few bold spirits on the Deiiocratic side of the chamber, who will nobly come to the rescue on this subject —who will, in good faith, be found side by side with me, in this attempt to eradicate error, and confirm truth; to dethrone special privileges, and establish equal rights. Sir, I am not actuated by any "new-born zeal" on this subject. I have always been opposed to corporations, upon principle. Since my entrance upon the stage of political action, I have to the extent of neya humble abilities, warred incessantly against them; and that warfare, I shall continue, so long as my voice can be heard, or mv hand can trace a line-if so long there shall be corporations to war against. And I rejoice that here, in a Convention assembled to frame an organic law for this great State, I shall enjoy the glorious privilege of recording my vote in favor of a proposition to prohibit all corporations. Sir, it will be to me a proud vote-the proudest I shall give in this Convention. In conclusion, permit me to remind gentlemen,' that those who vote down my amendment must be held responsible for all the evils which may be inflicted upon the people, by corporations hereafter created in Ohio. Iwash my hands of all such responsibility. Mr. GREEN, of Ross. In the present condition of this report, I shall vote for the motion of the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LEEciI.) But lest I nmay be misundersto od, I desire to s ay a fe w words in explanation of that vote. I saw, sir, recently, in a newspaper published in the county of that gentleman; a paragraph laudin him for his efforts in carrying on the war against incorpo-rations in this body- that he was winning "golden opinions." The proposition of amendment which he has just submitted, entitles him pre-eminently to the admiration of all ultra radicals. It is nothing more nor less than to prohibit the Legislature hereafter from granting anyactof incorporation for any purpose! Now, sir, 1 like the gentleman's spunk! He Ps none of your timid, time-serving, doubting reIformers, who let 646 OTES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 17. 647 lost by the failure of contractors. True, people will trust them on the credit of their contracts, but if they fail it is not the fault of the company, generally speaking. But, sir, I did not intend to discuss this question -it was fully discussed last summer. My object now is to help the gentleman from Guernsey to carry out in a bold, mantly way, what his party friends have not the courage to avow. I desire to call the attention of the people of Ohio to this subject, especially the unimproved portions of the State. I desire to fix their attention on the fact, that the propositions of the report do, in effect, carry out what th e amendmen t of the gentleman from Guernsey openly proposes, strike a death blow at all further improve ment ill Ohio through the mea ns of incorporations -that is it, sir. It can't be got away fro m -fix it up as speciously as y ou may, to that complexion must it come at last. I say, f wan t the pe ople of Ohi o to look into this report on corporations. It, in effect, forever, at least so long as this instrument we are framin~ shall last, if adopted, which Heaven and the gooa sense of the people, I think, will prevent, puts a stop to all enterprise in associated,inicorporated form. And this is the democracy of 1851! This is wheat you mean —then say so boldly-stand up to the gentleman from Guernsey-vote for his proposition —and give us the chance to make the issue fairly before the people. I shall help you to pass his proposition, that we may have that issue. I say again, I greatly prefer it to this report, for under it there can be no dodging. Mr. NASH. Mr. President; the subject of corporations is one of no ordinary import —and from the abuses incident to an exercise of the power, has attracted very much attention; has been very much debated, or rather talked about. And yet I have heard no gentleman here, who has touched the real question; the very found ation, upon which the exercise of this power truly rests. There has been great mioe-apprehension upon this subject in the public. mind, and great mischiefs have resulted from this mis-apprelhensioncor. porations have been created without any reference to principle, merely because they were asked for, and were corporations; and they have been refused upon no ground of principle, merely because they were corporations. But it is time that the public mind was directed in the right channel of thought, and the conduct of public men, governed on this vexed subject by the application of correct opinions, and an etnlight. ened and enlarged view of the whole subject. Then will all the good they are capable of, be secured; while the evils incident to an abuse of the power, will be avoided. To attain this golden medium should be the wish of all. And first allow me to remark that corporations are the product of modern civilization and free institu. tions. Antiquity never attained to,such an idea, to the creation of such a legal entity. Nor are they common under despotic governments. Just as civilization and freedom have advanced, just in that proportion have corporations been multiplied. There are more corporations in the U~nited States than iln all the world beside. Next to the United States stands Great Britain, next to the Unitedl States the freest government o11 the globe. You find no corporations in China, nor ill Turkey and very few, if Any, in1 Russia. Under such governments, great public works are under the direction of the government itself. Associated wealth is any thing but welcomne to the rulers of such teen-, tries. Thlis remarkable fact is worthy of especial note, and is of deep import. Nothing thus springs up in the progress of civiliz.ationl and freedomn, unless to meet some necessity, some craving want of society. "I dare not, wait upon I would — Like the poor cat i' the adage."1 He is a "fine, gay, bold faced reformer;" and, sir, I a like his proposition infinitely better than the spuri. ous, ill-c igested, (but nievertheless sufficient for the purpose,) report before us. Now, sir, what does this report propose as it now stands, and as it will be voted in, I doubt not? Why, sir, it is spurious and false. It ",Whispers the word of promise to the ear, And breaks it to the hope." Take it and carefully look into it-it is delusive, false. No man in hts sane mind would ever take stock in any corporation created by it. If any man should, and I had any interest in his welfare, I should lave a commission of lunacy taken out, a guardian appointed, and plead his insanity against the action fr the maoney. Sir, I live in a county that (thank Heaven!) can't be reached by your wisdom; we have already secured to us, by contract, all that we shall probably want in the way of improvement, for which I again devoutly render thanks. But I arm not so narrow of vision as to be ignorant that every improvement, any where within the broad limits of the State, is of advantage t nay people. It may not immediately benefit their trade, but it will assuredly bring an additional valuation to the taxable property in its immediate neighborhood, and thereby lighten the burthens of my con-. stitueuts. Sir, the whole scheme of the report is odious, but particularly so as it proposes to create, or will in effect create, odious distinctions; for under it the Legislature may assign to one corporation one rule of individual liability totally different, greater or less, as tlie case may be, from that which they pre- scribe for another. I quote from the third section"Dues from corporations shall be secured by the individual liability of the stockholders, and othe r means, as may le prescribed by law, provided the liability of each stockholder shall never be less than the amount of stock in any corporation owned bv him or her together, with a further sum of equal amount." It shall never be less, but as much more as the Legislature may provide. Again, in the second section, you generously provide that corporations may be granted by geniieral laws, but such laws may at any time be repealed. So, to get at an obnoxious corporation, you repeal the law creating all the others. Sir, why this warfare against all that is good and valuable-against the only means by which a new country ever was or ever can be improved-association of small capital for the purpose of benefitting the whole? These gentlemen tell us of the frauds practised by these corporations-of the terrible losses and disasters sustained by individuals by their di,shonesty. But they don't go into particulars. Let them tell me one instance where any man has lost by the frauds of these corporations. Mr. HU,MPHREVILLE, (in his seat.) How was it with the Ohio Railroad Company? Mr. GREEN. Well, sir, I don't know how they do things up in the gentlemnan's county; but that, if I am correct, was a banking concern. M. S3MITI-, of Wyandot, (interposing*.) What will the gentleman say of the Verinillion and Ashland Railroad Company? Mr. GIREENK. Sir, I have tnothing to say about it, because I don't know. But I will take it for granted, if gentlemen desire it, that there are a great man i dishonest schemes got up among my Yankee friends in the the Reserve. But, sir, I am speaking, not of exceptions, but a general rule; and I affirm, that all that has been lost by the'poor people," whose rights these gentlemen are so anxious to guard, has been OLHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEB'RUARY 17. And this necessity is found in the tact, that free gov erniments stimulate industry, and production, while leaving them to their own free action. It does not in terfere directly, and hence the principle of association is born to supply the vacancy, left void by the with drawal of government patronage in the execution of those great works; works which require for their ex ecutioii vast means. No such institution or instru mentality of society ever did originate in the mere in vention of man. It was needed; there was a mission for it to fulfil in the developnment of society; and hence it existed, and not otherwise. No such institu tion can stand upon falsehood; originate in a lie You might as well suppose that nothing could produce somnething, as that any one of the instrumentalities of modern civilization could exist, without some want or necessity calling for its existence. There is then in corporations some adaptation to meet the wants of mod ern progress and civilization. What, then, is this public want, this social necessity? It requires but a moment's reflection to see it, and to grasp it in the whole extent of its application. What, then, is it? It is not individual liability, of which we hear so much-it is not the right of repeal, of which we have heard more. These questions can never arise, until the question of cor poration or no corporation, has been settled. It must be first decided, whether corporations shall be created, before you can raise the question of how shall they be created-what form will you give them. Hence, individual liability and repeal, and all similar questions, are only incidental ones; are only questions as to the how. You must first decide the former question, and that once settled, all other ques tions are resolved into mere questions of means to an end. The utility of corporations, once granted, their organization must be such as to attain the end sought to be attained by their creation. If made at all, they must so be made,'s to be able to fulfil the end of their existence. Hence, we must first settle whether corporations ought to be permitted, and if permitted, upon what principle of government this permission can be justified to enlightened reason. Government is established for two great ends, to secure two great necessities of humanity and civilization. And first, its duty is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of his inalienable rights-his rights of personal liberty, of propertv, and the pursu.t of happiness. This is its repressive duty. But this is not all. Humanity is not only to be pro. tected, its efforts for improvement, are also to be encouraged. The earth is to be subdued-the necessaries of life created —its conveniences and adornments, to be secured. In other words, the development of humanity, is to be promoted, and this is only another name for civilization. To accomplish all this, labor is to be stimulated, and capital, the product of labor, to be invi ted into channels promotive of progress and the public welfare. Roads are to be made, bridges constructed, manufactures and commerce, education and religion, t }couraged. These are the great operative duties ofgov-,'imnent-and on these too, rests the whole fabric,,f le islation. The common weal, the public good, is the g:at end, or should be, of all legislation. Whatever t,e,n subserves this great end, is a fit subject of legislatlon, nay, more —it is the duty of government, to see lre these great ends, or rather instrumentalities of social progress, of civil ization.Highways, and tu rnpikes, culd canals, and railroads, and academies, and colleges, and churches, alnd commerce, are all instrumentalities, without which, humanity can make no progress. Hence, government, if it performs its duty, must take ear~ that these agents of civilization, are created, eithlelf directly by its own action, or indirectly through the action of others. Some of these agencies most be ereated by the immediate agency of government itself; others may be safely left to individual etterprioe; but other s exist, which g o ve rnment o ught t o anmake-which private enterprise can not, or wil! no t make, without the encouragement or aid of the goverlineist. Here, rthen in this large clas s of institutions, which gidoverid rGeemet should not, and individuals cateot create, is t found the field, in which gevernmenst and individuals must co-operate, if society isI not to become statioinary-and this co-operation, i s found carried out in modrere cor porationsd-ofrporationns, which have been created by this very necessity; are adapted to meet this very wanth of social progress. The principle, then, upon which they rest, is the, public good. When a corporation asks for an exist-s ence, the first inquiry must be. what does it propose to do? Is a the tling to be dou e, one in which the pablic have an interest? If cot, thei ptocorpora te g rant should be given; corporations should never be granted for mere p, rivate cupi dit y, or mere personal cotmisderat.ops. Have the public an interest in what i s to be fund,ertaken? should be t he ver y first i nquiry, at,d th e corporatiot3 should be granted oi refused, just as this question is answered in the affirmative or negative.s For ilnstane, a railroad is one of the great instronments of social pro-a gress, and one w it hout th e a id of which, sciety musp becom e s tati o nary. It mus t be made-society e yanntt do without it. It can be mad e otly in one of three ways; by the State, by individuals, or by a co-opera tion of both. The State ought not lo nmake it-pnivat6 enter prs ise is not equal to tle work-and n hence, if nade, it must be made by an union of tlhe two. tlee, the exist ence of rai lro ad ecorporations, whereby the State hold s out inducements to the capitalists, to mrake this woik of prime public necessity. A currency is a great national necessity; it is unsafe to leave it to ihdividuals; it is improper for the State to engage in its creation and circulation. Hence the recessity for banks, w,here by private capital is induced so to invrest istelf as to supply this great national want. Il every case, the corporation is grounded on principles of publc consid eratkin, and not on mere private cupidity. Here, tlhen, is the true foundation ofatl such legrs!a tion; and here gentlemen should plant thermselves~ Are corporations called for on reasons of publlic neces sity and convenience? If not, then no act of inscorpo. ration should be granted an any terms, whether with, or without the right to repeal; whether with, or without the individual liability.'no arguments of gentlemetd here are, that corporations are not onily unt,necessary, but absolutely injurious to the public welfare. If this be so, thent to be consistedt, gentlemen should never trouble themselves about repeal and -iidividual liabtility; they should vote dead against all corporations —at least such would be my couirse, ifl believed in what they say they believe in. The whole argumerit of these gentle men is against corporations, against their utility, against their necessity. Let them, then, come up to the question, and meet it manfully face to face. Let them move a provision, prohibiting the, creation of all corporations in future. But, sir, I take issue with these anti-corporation ge~ntlemenl. I deny that corporations are inurious to the public; but, onl the conitrary, clai~m that they have, grown up in modern legislation] to meet a necessity, a want of society. Such toolis the opinion of the people of Ohio. The good sense of our people believe in no such absurdity as these ~,entlemen advocate. Thley believe and i believe that many enterprises of mad era civilization could not exist, could not be created, saving through the agency of corporations. Believin~ thus, to prohibit all corporations would be to retrodado in 648 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 17. any one or more individuals may possess. Here an act of incorporation is needed merely to facilitate and encourage this branch of business; and the powers granted need be little more than the mere right of incorporation under a corporate name. So also with Banks. They are created to meet a public want, which neither the State, nor individuals can safely be entrusted to do. Business cannot be done, civilization cannot advance without a currency. This currency must be had, and it can be had only by mnaking it for the interests of capitalists so to combine as to supply this public necessity. Your terms and conditions must be such as will induce them to invest it in this form; and experience alone call show, what these terms should be. The terms must undoubtedly be different in this class from those in the former; the public have a greater degree of interest in the creation of a currency than in the manufacture of merchandize. Individuals can do the latter; they cannot he permitted to do the former. There is still another class, corporations for publit improvements. Here the public stake is very great' and private profit somewhat dubious. If, therefore, you decide on making public improvements by private capital, you must of necessity grant the most liberal terms. The risk of loss must not be too great, and the chance of a reasonable profit must be well secured, and pretty certain. Individual liability increases the risk of aloss, or at least the amount of that loss to an unlimited extent, if a loss does occur, and your absolute right of repeal puts the whole investment at the mercy of legislation. Will capital, notoriously cautious,'be willing to run such risks -for the hope of any ordinary profit? I fear the result of two such provisions. I fear that they will stop all public improvements by means of private capital and enterprise. I fear that the men, who have the money, will never invest it upon any such terms. I am sure the capital from abroad will never seek investments in public improvements in Ohio. But these improve-s ments wil get mad,; you cannot stop the on-goings of modern civilization of American society. If you make the terms so rigid, that private capital cannot; be induced to make them, the State will be driven to make them. You might as well fight against Providence as to fight against such a result. Wisdom thenf would seem to counsel us to leave so much liberty of action to the General Assembly that its legislation may be able to be adapted to the varied circumstances of each particular case, or class of cases. It is the height of folly to suppose the same iron rule can be applied to all corporations indiscriminately.; Conditions, which might induce capital into banking and manufacturing, will never induce it to flow towards your public improvements. The terms of charters must ~e varied to meet the varied contingencies that will arise. This is a self-evident truth, and should be received and acted upon as such. How far then should we go, as framers of an organic law? How much into detail should'a constitution desce,nd? Its object is to enunciate principles, not to elaborate laws. If we believe that corporations should never be created, then let us say so; but if a m-ajority, on the other hand, believe otherwise, let us say that and say no mnore. The law-makers should be left to adjust the details of the laws, to fix the terms; on which corporations may be formed. What we may flow be. losve to be best, experience may show to be the worst. If individual liability and absolute repeal deter honest mnen from becoming parties to corporations, whereby their control is thrown into the hands of dishones ty and insolvency, then surely some: other safeguard should be resorted to, instead of this panacea of mod ern democracy. We, by our constitution, may be civiliza tion; to go b ack two hundred years in the care er of improveement. I f t hese corporations do exist, som a means and instrument o f progress and civilization, they shoul d continue to be gran t ed on such terms, and upon suc occasions, as t he public good requires. Caution here should be exercised, as w ell as in every other act of government; their necessity and utility should be clearly afparent, before their creation is allowed. But when this necessity and ut ility are appa rent; when the public welfare is clearly to be promoted by the m; the n and not before, doe s t he q uestion arise upon what terms should they be granted - The answer to this ques tion is very plain; the should be granted on such terms as wil l secur e thei, existence of the corporation and the perform ance of the wo rk, for which it i s c reated. To adopt any oth.er rule is practically either to deny corporate acts alorortoget ther or to grant them irn providently. Either extreme is equally dangerous, equally mischievous. To .illu strat e this pro position, l et us put a case or two. A iew discovery has been made; a new s pecies of manufacture is proposed. If it suc ceed s, the public will gain imme nsely; if i t fail,e then the capital required to test its p rac ticability will be a total loss. Who shall m ak e t his experi ment? Shall the State? Gentlemian say no; and I agree with them. Will individuals make it? No; bec a u se the chances of loss are too great. What then shall be done? Shall all improv ements of this nature cease? I think not. M any individuals may be willin g to venture a limited a mou nt if they are prot ected in the business for a limited time, u ntil th e ex periment does'succeed. An act of incorporation is t he instrument d evi sed for just such emergencies. It permits a comb ination of many, and facilitates the transaction of the bus iness. Th e St ate then g rants the act, o n such terms as men of capital will aoree to, iatd gra nts it on public grounds alone. If it succeeds, the public are beolefitted as well as the corporators i if i t fails, the individua ls lose their investment. Is there any thing wrong in such legislation? Again tak he the cas e of a Railroad along an important lin e of cou ntry. T he public are to be beo,e. fitted by its construction. The State declines to embark in it s const ruc tion; individuals cannot- and wi ll no t w ithou t a charter. Still the public require the impro vement, and it must be made. How can it be done, save by the State's g rant ing such an act of incorporation, a s wi ll induce the men, having the ntoney. to make it? Thouah the road is a public necessi. ty, and the incorporation is granted sol ely on that ground; still the State must make its terms such that men of capital will believe that their interests will also be promo ted. It cannot be expected that men will make imaprovements for the public, unless some equivalent advantage is to accrue to themselves. The interest of the public and stockholder must both be consulted, must be made consistent, before capital can 1 be induced to cooperate with the public in the c,nstructiou of its improvements. Your terms then I must be such as capital will accept; otherwise your acts of incorporation must fail of the object of their creation. These terms should be more or less liberal, just in proportion to the interest, which the public 'has in their sueces. There is one class of corporations, in which the j public have only. an indirect interest. Such are cor- c potations for various manufacturingg purposes. The I increase of production in a State is ever an object of 1 public concernmnent; but it is generally within the l mneans of private and individual enterprise. But this t is nlot always the case. 31~any branches of manufac- -t ture can be successfully prosecuted only by the ex-E penditure of a large capital; a larger amount thane a s t t 8e Id I 0 11 0d i8 I t. d f h d e I e t t I 649 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 17. tlosthet, conceal it-why did he not throw it to the moles and the bats? And I can tell him, that if he brings this doctrine into the constitution, its effect will tm that there will not be a grease-spot left of the demo cra tic party in Ohio. The radicalism and madness of its leaders has already deprived it of its working major ity in the General Assembly, and if this work is to go on it will never regain its position, so long as grass grows and water runs. Mr. HOLMES was not in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LrEcHx.) He be lieved there were certain objects of a public nature, which could not be carried on without acts of incorpo ration. For purposes of internal improvement he be lieved them necessary, but he would go against all those the object of whose association was mere private gain. He was unwilling to go for any thing which would change the usual relation that legally exists between debtor and creditor. Mr. HAWKINS demanded the previous question, and five members rising in support of the demand, the same was sustained. The question then being-Shall the main question be now put? Mr. STILWELL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resuited-yeas 30, nays 61, as follows: YsAs-Messrs. Cahill, Chaney, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hu,ter, Johnson, King, Lidey, London, Manon, Otis, Patterson, Quigley, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Way. Woodbury and President-'.'0. NATs-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preb'e, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brow, of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers, X ollings, Cook, Curry, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of Cuvahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hoot man, Horton, Humphrevilie, Hunt, Jones, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, More. head, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Noritis, Peck, Perkins, Ranney, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Stan. ton, Stilwell, Stidger. Swan, Taylor, Vance of Butler, War. ren. Williams and Worthinzton-61. So the demand for the previous question was not sustained. Mr. BROWN, of Carroll, moved t hat the Conven tion adjourn; It was lost. The question then being on the amendm ent of Mr. LEECH, Mr. LEADBETTER said he should be under the necessity of voting with the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LE,EcH,) and the gentleman from Ross, (Mr. GREEN,) upon this question-not exactly for the rea sons given by the gentleman from Ross, but for oth ers of far more importance. This amendment calls up th e whole question of corporations. Wf h ave argot the State pretty well shingled over with the m of all kinds, fro m a doggery down to a ba nk, and t he Legis - lature is in a fair way to give us a plenty more. He did not see, why under the system as reported, any association for any purpose might not be incorporated. A house of ill fame might be incorporated, and thus secure itself from being suppressed by the public authorities. The principle is precisely the same. The value of the franchise in such a case would be considerable, and would consist in the immunlityr from suppression. In regard to the third section) he wer in favter of retaining it as amended. N~o honest man, who purcases stock, is desirous to get rid of the liabilities attending it. It is the gamblers and stock-jobbera who want to shirk this responsibility. Men become stockholders in corporations for the purposes of profit, The idea, that men invest their money in such enter. prise& from merely patriotic motives, i~ all in myr eye precluding tile General Assembly from following the light of exp eri ence-t he only l igh t which can be fol. low ed with safety. Is this wise? Is this the course of a f ar-seeing prudence? Certainly we m ay trust the wisdom o f c oming ye ars; s ince, w e believe that progress 'is the destiny of humanity, and that the next genera tion istue it to be ssperior to, and wiser than this. Why then s truggle to repress their wisdom and experience? W hy not leave to posterity scope for the application of its own accumulated lights a nd experie nces? Cann b t posterity be entrusted wi t h its own government? with providing, in its own way and acc o rding to its ovn w isdo m, for its own w ants? Must we prescribe an iron role for its action, strip it of the priceles s f re e dom of -though t and re ason? r Will not society move on, chan geu take plce, and n ew a gencies of progress be needed and ro.eal themselves too, when needed? While we are in sonflit o ver thi s mi serable su bject of corpor a tions, civilization il its onward flight, may be revealing new instrumentalities to superedtse those over which we ae now glory ing. We seem but as children con tending over our pets and playth ings; and posterity, like the child become a man, will laugh at our earnest ness over trif les, and our puerile efforts to manacle its freedom and action. Let us, then, confine our selves within the sp here of our duty; let us lay down princi ples, principles known an d settled, and not waste our time in the elaborat ion of mer e details of expediency, end which future experience may show as wholly in expedient-nay, positively injurious This is what duty and the people exp ec t of us, and have a right to ex. pect; and in the fulfilment of whi ch we shall so act as to comm and the respect of the present, without draw ing up on o urselves the ridicule of a future generation. pMr. ARCHBOLD sai d he had listened with great at tention to the argumen t of the gentleman from Guern sey, (Mr. LIEcH,) a bid ha d no doubt it had been well conned and committed. He had, however, been guilty of a slight misnomer in calling it an argumen t, when there was nothing in it in the shape of an argument, except the assertion that in England, the railroads were made so and so. In this respect, however, he had no idea the gentleman was correct. He had some ac quaintatice with English affirs, as well as the gentle man from Guernsey. But even if the statement is true, there is nothing in the situation of our country or the distribution of its wealth at all analagous to that of Great Britain. That is a country of immoderate wealth in individual hands, and if great public works can be conducted there by the means of single individ uals, it is no evidence that it can be done here; and if the assertion that such things are done is true, it would not change his opinion, in the least. But, he said, it is not true. The assertion is not accompanied bv any proof whatever. There may be such a thing as a railroad that is owned by an individual- but that is no reason why the people of Ohio should be deprived of the principle of association. I say that the right to associate wealth is no privilege whatever. What is the object of an act of incorporation conferred upon an improvement company? It is asimple abridgement of the partnership deeds. An ordinary partnership is inconveaient in an association of money, because every partner who dies or goes out, and every new partner who comes in, worlds a dissolution of the existing partnership. If the mere ability to avoid this difficulty as an exclusive privilege,who is injured —who is wronge~d —who is robbed by it]t The gentleman from Guernsey also reads, as authority for his opinions, the resolutions of some conven:tionD I believe in 1846. Now all I hare to say about this, is that if in some wine drinking party collected together, anything so wild and so idle has been concocted, why did not the gentlemdan, in charity to itm an 650 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuES AY, FEBRUARY 18S. real and personal, and moneys and credit, or investments in joint slock colnmpanies or otherwise, shall be taxed as other property is taxed. Provided, That buryinig-grounds, public school houses, houses used exclusively for worship, to an atnmotrit not over two thout. hsan id dollars, institutions of purely public charity, the property of the State, of counties, townships, cities and towns, may by gen. eral laws be exempt from taxation. And the General Asssnimbly may exempt fromn taxation property belonging to the head of each family, not exceeding in value two hundred dollars. Sce. 3. The General Assembly shall provide by law for taxing the capital stock paid ii, notes and bills discounted, undivided profits, and real and personal estate of all banks now in existence, or hereafter cooling into existence in this State, deducting therefrom the amount of their circulation. SEc. 4.- The General Assembly shall provide for revenue sufficient to defray the expenses of the State for each year, and also a sufficient suim to pay the interest on the State debt. SEc. 5. No tax of any description whatever shall be levied or enacted, except in pursuance of law, and every law which inposes such tax, shall state distinctly the olject of the same, to which only it shall be applied. SEc. 6. No money shall be drawn from the Treasury except in pursuance of a distinct and special appropriation made by law. Szc. 7, The State shall never contract any debt for purposes of internal improvement. [Signed,] JAMES LOUDON, JOHN EWING, E. WILSON. They go into it, first, because they expect dividends, and secondly, because it will enhance the value of their property. Then they should meet the responsibility of their acts, and not attempt to escape it through an act of incorporation. Mr. SAWYER had a word to say. As at present situated, he was like the old woman when she saw her husband and a bear fighting-she did not care a cent which whipped. He hIad attempted by every device in his power to introduce into this Constitution the principles of individual liability of stockholders and repeal of charters, and that without avail. He had done his duty, and did not intend to attempt any further exertion in that respect. The affair was in the hands of gentlemen on this side and that side of the House, and it would have to be with them. But one thing he would say-that if the Constitution does not contain a provision of this kind, he would not affix his signature to it when it is completed; and not only so, but he would go home and employ all the powers t hat God had given him, to prevent its adoption by the people. The PRESIDENT announced Messrs. Ewart, Smith of Warren, King, Townshend, and Kirkwood, the Committee under the Resolution submitted by Mr. EWART, on the 13th inst.; which Resolution provides, that the Committee shall report to the Convention a schedule, or article, providing for the expiration of the terms of all the officers; and the termination of courts of justice, under the existing Constitution; and the transfer of business to those elected and organized under the new Constitution. The question being on the amendment of Mr. On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Convention adjourned. ARTICLE ON MILITIA. Sec. 1. That all white male citizens residents of this State, being eighteen years of age and under the age of forty. five years, shall be enrolled in the militia, and shall perform military duty, as may te directed by law, not incompatible with the Constitution of the United States. Sec. 2. Majors General, Brigadiers General, Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels, M,jors,tCaptains and Subalterns, shall be elected by those persois subject to militia duty in their respective districts. Sec. 3. The Governor shall appoint the Adjutant General, Quartermaster General, and such other staff officers for the State. as may be provided for by law. Major Generals sh.ll appoint their division staff; Brigadier Generals shall appoint their brigade staff: Colonels or Commandants of Regiments, Battallions or Squadrons shall appoint their staff, and Captains shall appoint their non-commissioned officers and musicians. Sec. 4. The Governor shall have power to call forth the militia to execute the laws of the State; to suppress insurrection, and repel invasion; and officers of the line, and staff officers ranking as such shall be commissioned by the Governor. Sec. 5. The General Assembly shall provide by law for th e protection and safe keeping of the public arms, as may be deemed expedient.(g,) JOHN LDEY, ......Sined, JOH....... (S lgned,) JOHN LIDEY, JAMES I,OUDON, JOSEPH THOMPSON, SABIRT SCOTT, H. W. GILLETT. Mr. ORTON moved, that the rules be suspended so, as to permit report number three of the comtnittee on Militia, to he acted upon without further delay. On which motion, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 39, nays 50, as follows: YEAcs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chambers, Farr, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Hootman, Humphreville, King. Kirk wood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill. Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton. Patterson, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sel. lers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stidger, StTuble, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Will i ams, Wilson and Woodbury -;9. NAys-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Prehle, Bates. Bennett, Bliclensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, (:'haney, Colli-,gs, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart Ewing, Flore,ce, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchlcock of Geauga, Holmes, Horto, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones. Kennon, Manon, Morehead, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Rid REPORT NUMBER TWO, OF THE rTANDING COXMITTEE ON FINA.NCE SND TAXATION. Szc. 1. That the levying of taxes by the poll is grievous ati(i oppressive; therefore the Legisltutre shall never levy a poll tax for county or State purposes. SEc. 2. The General Assemblv shall provide by law, an uni orm rule of aisegsment and taxation, and shall prescribe sucI egulations as will secure a just valuation of all property, both I I 651 On motion of Mr. MANON, the report was laid on the table, and ordered to b,3 printed. Mr. LIDEY from the standing committee on Militia, to which was recommitted report number two, of the committee on that subject, submitted the following as a substitute therefore OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 18. die, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Worthington, andPresident- 50. So the Convention refused to suspend the rules. Mr. TAYLOR moved, that the report of the committee on Militia, be laid on the table, and o rdered to be printed. Mr. LOUDON demanded a division. The question then being first on laying the report on the table. It was agreed to. The question then being on ordering the report to be printed. It was disagreed to. Report number two, of the committee on the Legislative Department was read a third time. The question then being on the passage of the report. Mr. HUNIPHREVILLE moved, that the report be referred to a select committee of one, with instructions to strike out the word "first," in the thirty-sixth section. ~ Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, moved, that the report be recommitted to the committee, that reported it. Mr. SAWYER moved the previous question. The question then being "'shall the main question be now put." It was agreed to. The question then being on the passage of the report. Mr. VANCE of Butler, moved to reconsider the vote, by which the convention had just sustained the previous question. Oln which motion, Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 61, nays 30. as follows: to the standing committee on the Legislative Depart. ment. Mrr. CHAMBERS demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 30, nays 62, as follows: Yz.s-Messrs. Archbold.Brown of Athens. Chambers, Ewing, Gillett. Gregg, Groesbeek, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, HMlunt, Jones, Kennon, Ki)g, Kirkwood,Larwill Loudon,More head, Patterson. qiigley,Reeiiie!in, Scott of I-!arrison. Smiith of Wyandot, Stidger, Struble, Sivan, Teiormnsy,o of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Wilson andl Worthington —o, NAYs —Messrs. Andrews, Barkee, Barniet of Montgoiiiery, Bar. nett of Pieble, Bates. Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Car roll, Cahill, Case of Hocking. Cbanev, Collings, Cook Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Florence, Fortes, G aham, Gisay. Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, liamilton, Ha-d, HarlIan, Hawkins, Holnies, Ilootman, Hinter, Jolhnson, Lars, Lawrence, lT,eech, Leadbetter, Lidev. Manoi, Mato,, Mitchell,iorris, McC loud, Norris, Orton, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Raiiney,Ridle, S awver, STott of Auglaize, Sellers. Smith of olizhlaud, Sitith of War ren, Stanton, ~tebbins, Stilwell, Sticknev. Swift, Vance of Butler, Way, Woodb.ury and Presidenit-S2. So the niotion to re-conmmit the report to the stand ing committee was rejected. The question then being on re-committing the re port to a select committee of one, with instructions to strike out the word "first," in seztion 36, Mr. LEECH demanded a division. The question being first on referring the report to a select committee of one, Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize, demanded the yeas aad nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 58, nays 36-as follows' Y~As-Messrs Andrews, A -chb,)!d, Barbee, Bernet of Mont govtebry, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bi,niett, BI'ckensderfer, Brown of Attieus, B' own of' Carroll, Case ot Hockijig,, Chain bers, Collings, Cook, Cur v, Dlorsey, Ewat. Ewing. Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Rosi. G reo, resbeck, Hamilton. Harlan, Henderson, Hitchc)k of G,au -t, Holies, Hartoy, Humthreville. Jones Keii)oii, Kirnwood, Larst,. Lou Mdont, Mai,on, Masoii,Morehead. Moriis, M, Cloud. Otis, Patler son, Prck, Perki,s, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Sithll of Hith. latnd, SB iih of Wa iren. Staiton, Stilwetl, Thoiiipson of Shtelly, Thiomipson of Stark, Vance of Butler,Wilson Woodbury and Worrthingatosr,-.8 NAYS Messrs. B!air, Cahill, Chaney, Fart, Fortbes, Grene of DeLia nce, Hard, Hootinaii, Hiumt, 1,nter, Johnson, King, Lawrence,Larwill, Leech, Leadl,et,er, Li(ley Mtceliell, Norris, Orton, QuiIley, Raiiiev, Reemelin. Sawyer, S,-ott of Aus,laize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Steb)ihis, Stickney,Stilger, Slruble,. Swan, Swift, Taylor, Way and Presiden' —36. So the motion was adopted, and Mr. HUMPHRE VILLE was appointed said cornmittee. The question then being on the instructions, to wit: "Strike out the word "first," in section 36, Mr, RANNEY demanded the yeas and lays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 47, nays 47-as fol lows: YEAS-Messrs Andrews. Art-h'olht, Barbee, Bat,-et of Monltnlomery, Blarieit of Prelile, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderter, BO, own of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hockin-, Cham. bhers. Collings, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewalt, Ewing, Fl(.r ne, Gillettl, Graham, G a-v, Geen of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Haw. kius, Hitchcock of Geauca, Hortoti, Hiitnph,eviile, Hunter, Larsli, Loudnon, Maniic, Mason, Morelead, Morris, M,-Cloud, Otis, Peck, Perkiiis, Scott of Harrisoii, Smith of Highland, Snity of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Thompson of Shelby and Woodblury-47. SNAYS-MessM s. Cahill, Chatey, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defi anice, Gregg, G-oesibeck, Hard, Htndernso, Holmues, Hootnian Huint, Jollison, Jones, Kennon, Kin~. Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leechi, Leadbetter, Lldey, Mitchell Norris, Orton, Pa'. tersoc, Quigley,Ranney, Reecelici, Riddle. Sawve, Scott of Au. Glaize, Sellers, Siuith of Wyatidot, Steblilis, Sitickiey Stidger tStrublle, Siwabl, Swift, Tayzlor, Tshomrpson of Stark, Vance~ ok Bu3ltler, Way, Wilson, Worthingtonl anid President —47, So the motion to instruct was rejected.,, Mr. SWAN moved to strike out section 36, and insert in lieu thereof the following: s'Private property shall ever be held inviolate, lint subservient to the public welfare. When in tiite of war, or other public exigelncy, imperatively requirilig ai immediate seizure of private pr operty for public use, a con m pesation a t ha ll be made to the owp her in money. And in all other cases in which the public good E..ts-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnvett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers Collings, Cook., Curry. Ewart, Eowing, Plorence, Gil!ett, Graham G —ay, Green of Rtoss, Gregg, G-oesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hendersoni, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hootman, Humphreville, J ones, Kennon, Kirkwvood, oarsh, Lawrence, Loudlonl, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck, l'erkins, Quigley, ReemeliD, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Struble, Swan,'I'honmpson o Shelby, Vance of B-,tler, Warren, and Woodbury-61. N,Ys-Messrs. Andrews, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Fart, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Hard, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson. Larwill, Leech, Leadhetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, Orton Ranney, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Swift, Wray, Wilson,Worthington and President-30. So the motion to reconsider was agreed to. T he question then being "shall t he main quest ion be now put." Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded the yeas and nays, which woere ordered, and resulted, yeas 29, nays 61, as follows: aws-,Hressrs. Blai, iCha e, ar, CahiFor ae, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Hard, Hootman. Hunter, Johnson, Larwill, Lidey. Manon, Mitc hell. O r ton, R anney, Sayer, Scott of Autljaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney,StSdg-r, Swan. Swift, Tho mpson of Stark, Warren, Way i nd President-29. NAYS-MeSsrs. Andrews, Archboldc, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking-, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Cutler,.Fwart, Ewing, Florence. Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, Kennon,King, lKirkwood, Larsh, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nor,-is, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle Sott of Ha-risoni. Siri h of highlands Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Wilson. Woodbury and Worthington-61. So the demand for the previous question was not sustained. The question tl,en being on recommitting the report 652 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 18. shl reur rvt rpryt i ae o ulcue u- M.S W E eaddteya a as hc shall requir e private property to he taken for public use, a comipensation therefor shall first be made in money, or first secureled by deposit of money. And sitrh coiiipenisatioit shall be a-sessed by a jiry, and without deducticion on account of the public use being a benefit to any property of the owner." Mr, RANNEY moved to amend the instructions by striking out the words "or first secured by deposit of molney." On which motion Mi. LEECH demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 41, nays 53-as follows: I E.,s —lessrs. Brown of Atheiis, Fa,r, Forbles.Gray. G-'eene of Defiaice. Gre",,, Groesleck, Hard. Holities Holt, Hootlman, Huinphrevile, Hunti, JoTies, King, Larwill, Leech, Leadiretter, Lidey. Loudon. NMichel.,Norris, O-ton, Qui'iley. Raniimy, Reeti etirn, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Atiglaize, Seller's, Smith of Wyauidot, Stanton, Stelibiis, Stickiney, Stidet-, Str,ille, Swift Taylor, Tilotipsotn of Stark, Way aid President-41. N,&Yv-Mks.irs. An,drews, Archbold, Bartbee. Barnet of Mont, goinery, Bai nett of P,eble Btes. B.niet Blair, BlickenisderferBrown ot' Car-oil, Cahill, ( ae of Hlicking, Chamblers, Chaiev, Collin,s, Cook, C:Jrrv Dorsey, Ewart. Florence, Gillett, Graihamn, Green of Kg)ss. Ham)iiton, Hal Ian, Hawkins, Hendersoi, Hitchcock of G'auga H,rton, Hnieter, Johnison, Kelinon, Kirkwood, Larshl, Lawrence.Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, MrcCloud, Otis, Patterson, _Peck, Pcrki,is, Scott of Harrisoii, Sitith of Hihlanid, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Swan, Vance of Baitler, Warren, Woodbury and Worthingtoii-53. So the amendment was rejected. The question then being on Mr. SWAN'S motion to instruct, Mr. CURRY moved to amend the instructions by striking out all after the word "jury." O0l which motion, Mr. CURRY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 25, nays 69-as follows: Y'PAS-Messrs. Archl old, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Prebhe. Bates, Beunielt, Blickenisderfer, Brown of Atheis B-owii of Carroll,Ciaminbers, Co'lings, Ciurryv, Florence, H wmt. itoit. H)rton, Larsh, Lonidon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, Mr. Cloud, Peck, S,-ott of Harrison, Smith of H gliland, Smith of Warren and S.ilwell- 25 NAYs-Messrs. Bai.l ee, Blair, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Cha. ney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Forbes, Gil'ett, Grahami,Gray, Greete of Defiance, G-een of Roes,, Geg, G, oesbeck, Hard,a Harlaot. Hawkins. Henderson, Hitchcork of Geaniga, Holnes, Holt, Hootmian, Hiitiiphreville, HU1t Hiuniter, Jolinsoui, Jones Kennon, KinT, Kirkwood, Lawrence. ljarwil', Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Maitou, Mitchell, Orton, Oti's, Pattersoni, Perkins, Qutilgley, Ruann(ev, Reemeit), Riddie, Sawver, Scott. of Ai glaize, Sellers, Smitl) of Wyanidot, Stanton, Stel)biiis, Stickniey, Stidg,er, Stril,tte, Swan, Swift, Ta-ylor. Thomiipson of Shtelby, Thoitmpsout of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodlury, Worthi-iiton and Presidenit-69. So the, amendment was rejected. Mr. ARCHBOLD moved to amend the instructions by inserting after the word "use" the following: "or when taken for the purpose of making or repairing such public roads as shall be open to the public use, without any toll or other charge therefor" On which motion, Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 48, nays 45 as follows: YE:AS-Messrs. Andrews, Archlbold, Barhee, Ba.rnet of Montgoitiery, Barinettof Preble, Bates, B:inet, B'air, Blickeiisderter, B,owII of Athiens, B'own of Carroll Cage of Hockinig, Chamibhers, Collin'_s, Cook, Farr, Floreince, Gil!ett, Graham, G ay, G -een of Ross. Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geatiga, Hult, Hootnian, Hottoi, Hititiphieville, Hinter, Kenino, Kirkw Sod, Latrsti, l.oiidon, Morehead. Morris, Otis, Paltterson, Peck, Reenielin, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stilwell Stidger, Struble, Swan, Vance of Buitler, Wareren anid Worthi nglon —-48. NAYS —Messrs. Cahill, Chaney, Curry, Dorsey, Ewine, Fortes, Greene of Defiance, Gre, Groesheck. Hard, Ha "lan, Hawkinls, H~endcersonl, Hohnles, Hunt, Johnson, Sonles, Kilg, Lawrence,Larwill: Leech; l~eadbetter. Litey, Ma on, Mitcheli, McC.'oud, Nash, Orton, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Sawyer. Sellers, Smith of W~yanilot, Stanton, Sitelbins, S t ickh ney, Swift, Taylor, Thoinsisoit of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Way, Woodbury and Presidenti-45. So the amendment was adopted. The questio n thean be ing on agree ing to the instructions, as amenlded, Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and na ays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 57, nays 39-as follows: YEAs —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold. Barbee, Barnett of Montgomery, Eates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of HEocking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Farrt, Flore nce, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hende rson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Law rence, Loudon. ManoI. Mason, Moorhead, McCl oud, Nash, O tis, Patt erson, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Somith of Highland, Smith o f War. ren, Stilwell, Struble, Swan,'hompson of She lby, Vance of Butler, Warren, Woodbury and Worthington. —57. NAYs —Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Cahill, Chaney, Cur ry, Ewing F, Forbes, G reene of Dfiace Hard, Harlan, Holmes, Humphre,ilGe,,Hunt, Larsl, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Mo rris, Norris, Orton, Peck, Perkins, RaM hney, Sawyer, Sco tt of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Swift, Taylor, Thoml)soni of Stark, Way, Wilson and President.-39. So the instructions were adopted. Mr. STILWELL submitted the fol l owing; 'Reesolved, That tle Select Committee be further instructed to amend the Repott, s, as to o)rovie that the StnadeTs of the Glm neral AssemoHly, aHt thei r officers, shall receive a lixtn d and certain conmpenisation, to be prescribed by law; and no other a!louwaiee or perquisite whatever, either iii paymilenst of postage or othierwise." Mr. MANON moved to amend the resolution by striking out that part which re!ates to postage, which was disagreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the res. olution, Mr. STILWELL demanded tlhe yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 63, yeas 33 — as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Farr, Florenice, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Haw]kins, Hendersoni, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Hunter, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, LonLdon, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Perkins, RPanney, Sawyer, Scott of IHarrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stebbins, Stilwe11, Swan, Struble, Swift, Tavlor, Vance -of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthington —3. NAYs-Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blair, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Dorsey, Ewing, Forbes, Green of Ross, Hard, Holmes, Hunmphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Larsh, Leech, Nash, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Riddle, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Sticknev, Stidger, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark. and President-33. So the resolution was adopted. Mr. WORTHINGTON submitted lhe following: Resolved, That the select committee on the legislative depasrtmnent be instructedl to arnend the same by adding to the end of section 35, theso words: "*Nor shall any new county be laid off} under this proviso, which t,hall contain less thanl 2O,000 inhabitanlts." On the adoption of which, Mr. WORTHINGTONT demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 58, niays 29-as follows: YEArs-,Messrs. Barbee, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens. Cahill, Collings, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, flamil 653 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, FEBRUARY 18. republican issues which it makes. But, sir, while NAY~~~~~~Messrs ~ ~ ~ ~ ~P. Ba ne of M n g m r, B r e t O Pr b e pa t. It h s lr a y b e cl a l sh w, th t t i me n cling round it, whose hearts and minds are not sin cerely imbued with its8cardinal doctrines, but whose sole at tachm e nt co nsists in a love of place and power, of the loaves and fishes of office, such embarrassment must ever attend this justly popular, but unfortunate party. It has already been clearly shown, that this doctrine ha. been openly and unequivocally promulg ed by the highest organized bou dyknown to ourparty. In the county from which I come, it h as be en fret quently s an d exp ressly declared. Still, sir, I admit that all this is not conclusive a r gument in favour of the justi ce or proprie ty of this proposition. These things should lead all men claim ing to be democrats, carefull y to e xamine the subject before they conclu de against these clear declarations of the part y. Sir, I now propose to suggest a few considerations which abundantly satisfy my mind of the cor rectness of this doctrine. In doing this, I cannot enter into the subject with any degree of fullness, but must con tent myself with the mere statement of points, leave Ming others to t hink out the ma nife st reasons which s uppo rt them. The first objection I urge against the policy of cor porations, is, that the business confided to them will never elicit the same circumspection, prudence and care on the part of the individuals whose investments are concerned, as would be observed in the case of mere partnerships or private enterprises. Hence, the business and interests of the community suffer in no inconsiderable degree, from want of that personal individual care, which constitutes the high est guaranty for success and efficiency, in its pros ecution. This, sir, is no slight consideration, simply in point of policy. Sir, what has made your entire country the wonder of enlightened men throughout the world, as it justly is, but this peculiar feature of all your business transactions. I mean the great leading bu siness of the country. Trade has hitherto been left entirely open to the energy and competition of each individual member of society. So have been -all the industrial pursuits-each man embarking with the capital he may have, whether it may consist in the strength of his arm, the weight of his purse, or the rigour, energy and foresight of his Goa-given intelleet, or all combined. No difference. sir, which. Heretofore, the institutions of this country have kept the door open, wide and free, for all to enter, and secure and enjoy the just rewards of prudence, energy and diligence, in the prosecution of their calling. Leaving, also, at the same time, that highest of all ineentives to prudence, watchfulness and zeal in carrying on the business of the country, the fear of loss incident thereto. This most wholesome of all the principles of trade-this most sure of all our springs to) prosperity, is utterly taken away by the policy of corporations. The chief, and in avast many instances, the only real object of obtaining a corporate organization, is to relieve the capitalist investing his means, from the principle hazards of trade, and to throw this risk upon the innocent community, who may chance to be so far duped, as to trust a creditor of whom they can know nlothing, literalhy nothing, satisfactorily. The results, then, of this policy must of necessity, be to cripple and impede the progress of our coulntry in its high career of prosperity and advancement in all the arts of civilized life. Bult, sir, another consideration of still higher importance, and one which ought to weigh mightily with men claiming the high regard for morality this body does, is the fact that this system of incorpora on, Har d, Ha rlan, Henderson n,Hootman, Horton, Humphre ville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood,Larwill,Lidey, Mason, Morehead, Norris, Orton. Otis, Patterson, Peck, Per kins, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-58. NAYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blair, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Chaney, Forbes, Gray, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt Hunter, Kennon, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Reemelin, Stebbins, htilwell,Swan, Switf, and Warren-29. So the resolution was adopted. Report number two of the committee on corporations other than corporations for banking, was read a third time. The question then being on the passage of there port, it was agreed to. On motion, the report was referred to the commit. tee on *' Revision, Enrollment, and Arrangement." Mr. NASH submitted the following, which was adopted: Resolved, That the following words be added to the end of standing rule thirty five, to wit: "which shall be confined and relate to the particular section then under consideration, unless the Convention shall other wise direct." And that from the close of rule thirty-two the fol lowing words, to wit:'but shall not preclude further and different amendments," shall be stricken. Mr. KIRKWOOD submitted the following: Resolved, That the Door-Keeper be authorized to employ one assistant. \ Mr. LARWILL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 45, nays 39-as follows: YEc. —Messrp. Andrews,Archbold. Barbee, Bennett, Blair, Brown of Carroll. Cahlill, Chaney. Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Flor. ence, Greene of Detiance, Gregg. Hamilton, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauiga, Holmes, Holt, Horton, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Mason, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Peek, Quiglev, Riddle, Sawyer, Sel:ers, Stelbbins, Swanl, Way, Woodbury, W'orthington and President-45. NAYS-Messrs. Barnet of M,ontgomery, Barnett of Prel)le, Bates, Blicken'derfer, Brown of Athens, Chambers, Cook,c Ewart, Frhes, Gillett, Gray, Green of Ross, Groesliei k. Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hootman, Hunt, Hunter, Larwil!, Mahon. Mforris, McClIid, Otis, Patterson, Perkins. Reemelin, Scott of Auglaiz.e, Smnith of Highland, Smnith of Warren,Smith of Wy. andot,Stanton,Stilwell, Stickney Struhle, Swift, Taylor,Thoinp-. son of Stark and Vance of Butler-39. So the resolution was adopted. On motion of Mr. LEECH, the Convention then took up the report number one of the committee on corporations other than corporations for banking. The question pending being upon striking out the word "special" where it occurs in section one, Mr. MITCHELL said: Mr. President, I desire to submit a few remarks upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LEECH,) before voting upon it. I regard this amendment as proposing to declare most unequivocally, that hereafter no corporations shall be created in this State. This declaration, it would really rejoice my heart to see made; but judging from past manifestations, I cannot promise myself now this high gratification, from the action of this body. I feel that we are doomed to renewed disappointment and deeper chagrin at seeing one of the old and lately clearly recognized tests of democracy voted down: literally repudiated upon this floor. Sir, it is painful to reflect upon the defections constantly manfesting themselves in a party which always ought, in this government, to be largely in the ascendant wh gloriously triumphant upon all the great and truly 654 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 1IS8. ity. I do not so regard it. One great stimulus to ac tion has ever been the consciousness that we shall re ceive the just praise due to worthy deeds. This, sir, with the hope of pecuniary reward, constitute the two powerful incentives to action, in the breast of man. Why, then, should the honest and industrious farmer, the virtuous and laborious mechanic, the prudent and upright merchant-yes, sir, and the faithful daylaborer, whose toil and diligence combined alone have nmade your State the pride and glory of the youthful Republic of America, be thus violently and unjustly robbed-yes, sir, robbed of the praise and honor due to their virtuous efforts, in thus working out their country's glory? Sir, I f elt chagrined ate he thought, that members of this honorable body should be fo und guilty of this unjust and disgraceful conduct towards the great body of our people -and this certainly for no very worthy purpose; but, simply to steal a little decent drap ery to throw over ansd hide the hide ous a nd loathsome carcase of the at s of the se personi fications of villainy and injustice, called corporations. Sir, I call upon the people of this State to look at this thing in its realityto consider this presumptuous claim to the ho nor iue to their vir tuous and fatiguing t oils, by these pimps of a most contemptible aristocracy. Read, sir, theremarks of the gentleman from Ros s, [Mr. GREEN,] whose course on this subject rather astonished me. (See his speech of February 7, 1851.) He says, "why t h is unnecessary warfare upon fEvEcy g reat interest of the community?" Yes, sir, "bvreY great interes t o f community," are his words-constitute his modest claim for these objects of his sympathy! But hear him further: {Those associations for improvements by roads, &c., and for the trade in money, through the instrumentality of which MAINLY have arisen the won ders that meet us at every point in the physical pro gress of the country." Hiere, sir, is the further exhi bition of the modest claim of these gentlemen upon this subject. Yes, sir, your country's blessings and glories, great — minently great as they may be, are to be mainly credited to these vampires and moths upon the honest industry of men-these drones in the working hive of industrious men, with which our country is filled. Yes, sir, from these worthy multitudes whose cease less toils have removed from your hill tops, the lofty forests, and covered them with waving grain; from your rich vallies, the deep tangled wild wood and made them vocal with bleating folds and lowing herds-the credit is to be stripped away, and turned over to these few exclusives! Sir, when I contemplate the glowing picture of our country's prosperity, the results of the industry of men whose memory I cherish with the liveliest emo tions, and then remember that a systematic attempt is now being made here, in this body, and indeed throughout the whole country, by the whig party, to rob them of their justly earned honors, my feelings of indignation rise above my powers of utterance. While these multitudes are tolling in the sun,in their workshops, and behind their counters, working out these wonderful results, where are your finely dressed gentlemanlike corporators? Are they touching the burden "with one of their fingers?" N]o, sir!. But snugly seated iln their elegantly furnished Bank parlors, or director's room, they plot and contrive how they can levy a little heavier stipend upon the product of these toiling, unsuspecting millions, to increase their already ill-gotten hoards. Nor, sir, are these mnen scrupulous as to the means, 80 that the end be attained. This picture as just and true as I can draw it, shows tions entirely deprives community, of the great benefits of the wholesome restraints of morality upon the business of the country. Sir, the magnitude of this evil is not at all comprehended by the men of our day. It would perhaps, if carefully scanned, account for many, very many, of the alarming moial evils with which we are now afflicted. Corporations have no souls to da mn. a nd no bodies to whip, consequent ly, nothing to w hich moral accountability can attach. They are contro lled byr u nseen ha nds, whose very names are ca refully concealed from the public. A g ents are selected to represent them with the public, who, it is k nown, are merely representing the prescribed will of the se unseen sup eriors; and hence, are reg ar ded as morally responsible only for their fidelity to the behests of this body, in the dark, who are aga in but agents of a still greater unseen unknown number; who hav e embarked their interest alone for th e sake of g ain. Gain, then is their polar star, and the attainment of this end constitutes the chief ai s of all their endeavours, and gives zeal and energy to all their e fforts. Deeds of the grosses t enormity, of the most unpara llelled iniquity, may be concocted and execu ted without community being able to detect or poin t out the guilty perpetrators. They a re, sir, emphatically beyond the reach'of that most potent of all powers of restraint appointed by Infinite wisdom, for the regulation of men's actions, in their d ealing s wi th e ach other. In proportion, sir, as you remove or we ake n it, you m ake- men devils in stead ofmoral beings, in their deal ings. Avarice and lust for gain assume control, and soon a love for justice, and a sense of right literally die out of the hearts of men, leavi ng them monst ers, ripe for anything! Si r, look at the manner in which your proud and pompous Pharisees of this day receive into their corn. munions m en reeking with these iniquities practised by your wealthy corporators, in t he dark. A!m sir, l et not these men think that they, by the guise of their c orporations, escap e the b road gaze of an all-seei ng and sin-hating God! They may, by their wealth and proud position, turn away the scrutiny of some, and from their secret ways, artf ully provided, avoid th at of many more, still their moral turpitude, in truth, rem a ins, and Its blighting effeicts upon society, though also unseen, are noite the l e ss certainly and fatally toing on, sapping its foundations; rende rin g it in truth a whited sepulchre, in whose gilded vault lies moulderilng th e r ema ins of all th at is excellent and really praiseworthy among men. Sir, in my judgment, this is no fancy picture, but a faith. ful sketch of the fatal eff'ets of this policy now developing itself in our midst But, sir, another objection that weare most forcibly reminded of in ourdeliberations here almost every day. Sir, I was really astonished, the other day, to hear the gentleman from,Ross,(Mr. GREEN,] break forth ina perfect rhapsody, in adulation of these corrupt and presumptuous combinations of men. Yesterday he mere. ly repeated the same encomiums. Nor, sir, is he the only one on this floor who indulges in these. episodes. You would think, sir, to hear these gentlemen, that these corporations had done everything for us, and hence, are entitled to all the credit to be ascribed to I any one, for our wonderful prosperity, our happyr and flourishing condition. Sir, my soul becomes ardent with indignation, when I hear the retainers of these anti-republican combinn-~ tiens doing such provoking injustice to an honest and virtuous yeomanry, whose persevering industry and prudence have, in truth, produced these creditable results. Sir, it may look like a little thing, to be contending about who shall have the credit of our great prosper-. i i t F i I c r i t 665 656 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUEsDAY, FEBRUARY 18. Very fortunately for him, sir, he is fully sustained in his statement in this matter, by a very eminent author- ity which 1 have at hand-the Honorable Edmund Burke. But, sir, look at the past experience in your State, t and throughout the country, and answer me whether that justifies the assertion, that these combinations are , necessary for the full development of the country's re SOurces. I have already shown by what means the great body * of these improvements, which indicale our prosperity, , have been made. I refer, sir, to your finely improved c farms, with their comfortable and neat dwellings your flourishing villages and large towns? What agency has corporations had in making these? What [ next strikes the eye most prominently, in surveying the flourishing State, of which we are justly proud? Is it not, sir, your thousand well-opened, respectably improved highways? How many of these, s.r, are made by your corporations? Look to that part of the State where the impetus was first given to this spirit of road-inaking-the West ern Reserve, first settled by those good, old-fashioned, , energetic yankees How did they chequer their entire country over with the best roads the nature of their soil and materials will admit? How many of themn, sir, were first made by corporate means? Two only, can I now recollect! One from Warren to Ashtabula -the other from Wooster to Cleveland. In less than ten years after the oldest of these was made, there were upon each range centre, running just along side of this road, others fully as good, made by the energy of this mighty working mass of people whose just rights and honors I have been, and still am, endeavor ing to vindicate and sustain. Nor is it from North to South alone, that this Reserve and the other portions of the State, are marked with good roads thus made; but, sir, from East to West, you find the same. And, sir, ninety-nine out of every hundred will be found made by this same unincorporated mass of our worthy citizens. Now, sir, look at the nex ot most st riking of the marks of our prosperity: our, Mehanic Arts. Wha t proportion of this great s ource of our national greatnes s is aided or carried o n by your corpora tions? So small a share, taking the entire mass, as hardly to justify notice. Then, turn to your internal commerce, embracing the entire mercantile class-a worthy, useful and highly deserving class. What proportion of these men, sir, are carrying on their useful and spirit-stirring business by means of corporations? I know of none. Then where do you find, for the great and controlilug business of your country, the necessity for creating these sneaking, rogue-concealing corporations? Sir, I claim to desire, as sincerely as any man on this floor, or in this State, can, the true and real prosperity thereof. Sir, it is my native State. To its hills and vallies i have ever been most fondly attached. All my attachments to my fellow men are confined almost exclusively to the people of this State. Why should I not then, desire their highest good? I do, sir! And it is because that I believe that this demands the utter abandonment of the unjust system of corporations which we have allowed to gain so great an ascendancy among oulr republican institutions, that I have thus far occupied the timle of this convenltionl, uponl this subject, Sir, I feel deeply upon this subject, and it is because my mxind is deeply convinced, that I thus feel. I have discharged mny duty. I have laid before this body, as briefly as possible, some of the considerations which have led me to this conviction. I ask for them only 8 calm and impartial consideration —especially by my how much of the credit of our prosperity is justly due to these presumptuous combinations of men. How impious, then, sir, is their claim to all this cred it, as set up for them by the mass of the whig party. Sir, these things show far more satisfactorily than all their direct proresstons of anxiety for the welfare of the people can, where their real sympathies are; whose interest thev really, at heart, cherish. Why then, sir, should any real friend of the people tolerate such a pol icy-o n e which does such gross injustice-one wh ich seeks to deprive the cou ntry of one of the most whole some i ncentives to action, and t o leave our labouring classes i n th e de gra ded econrdition to wh ich they are doomed in all the monarchies and aristocracies of mo dern times? But, sir, my greatest objection to corporations, I h ave before stated her e repeate dly. Th is is, that from th e very nature of th ings, t hey are inconsistent with our institutions; inevitably at war with a just republica n equality. Governments here ar e in fact for med by como pac t a mo ngoi the people-among the individuals of society. They are f ormedt, t oo, for the sol e purpo se of protect e ing each individual in the enjoyment of thos e right s which he has not of necessi ty surrendered, in order to form the social com pac t. The und erstand ing with him is, that the road to happiness and fortune is t o b e kept as fully open to him as to any other cf his fellows. This impl ies that h e sha ll be en titled to the opportuni ty of contendin g, in his strnggle f or wealt h and happ iness, with his fellow man, in the condition they each occup y when for min g,his compact; name. ly: their individual condition. Each man ag ainst his fellow. N ow, t, sir, if government so far overlooks or violates the spirit of this compact, a s to le nd id i ts aid to combine a certain favored few to struggle with their united force against the isolated masses of individuals who a re alike entitled to the favor of this same gover nment, then, a wrong is done to every individual. An unnatural oppos ing force is arrayed agai nst each single handed combatant, in this strife, which makes his success far more doubtful, and that of his antagonists, more probable. But, Government does not stop here, in the creation of these corporations. She acts upon the grossly false hypothesis, that she is the fountain of privileges and rights; and, hence, has a boundless and illimitable power of conferring on whom she may please, just such honors or emoluments asshe. may choose. Sir, a position more positively antagonistic to the true design of all republican governments, could not be suggested or maintained. And, vet, sir, to our disgrace, this is a prevailing notion of our day; not confined, I regret to say, to the whig party alone, but finding advocates among men claiming to be dernocrats. "God save such democracy," I repeat! Sir, my friend from Guernsey, (Mr. LEECH,) has shown beyond denial, that this has been most distinctly recognized as a leading tenet of the democratic faith. This is no new doctrine, but as old as democracy in this country. But upon this point I will spend no more time. Now, sir, let us enquire a little as to the necessity of these corporations. My friend from Guernsey, (Mr. LEECH,) has stated and correctly, too, that the great body of the improvements made ill this country, through the instrumentality of corporations, are- chiefly done in Englanld by' Joint-Stock and other unincorporated companies. I am not astonished that this was denlied; for, sir, I am not astonished at the denial of any historical fact,; by some members on this floor. Sir, this is a matter; of history, qpon which any one may fully satisfy him-i self, if he will lake the painls the gentleman from Guernsey has done,to inform himself. t t t I s t c i OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUUSDAY, FEBRUARY 18. eemrocratic brethren, to whom I look with confidence for the protection of all the real interests of the country. I shall vote for this amendmeent, with my brave young friend from Guernsey, (Mr. LEECH,) and with his, can say that let others do as they may, I shall esteem it a high privilege thus to bear my recorded testimony in behalf of one of the fundamental principles of democracy and free government. I shall give this vote with pleasure, though none should vote with me but my worthy friend. With him I can say-"It will be to me a proud vote-the proudest I shall give in this convention." Oa motion of Mr. LARWILL, The Convention took a recess. in legislation. The amendment applies only to municipal corporations. It certainly would be an absur. dity to give to a town of a thousand inhabitants the same charter of incorporation that you would give to a ci ty of a hundred thou s and. Fo r e xample: Here in Cincinnati, an ocean of power is requisite for their municipal regulations; whereas, if the same amount of power were conferred upon a little town, it would be almost sur e to be abu sed. I t app eared to him that no general law could be made to apply to all municipal charters in the State, and fo r th is reason he had offe red the amendment. Mr. REEMELIN had paid a great deal of attention to the s ubject of city charters an d city g overnmentenough, it might seem, to entitle hi s views t o some little weight; and of all thp thgs in the State whi ch ought to be regulated by genera l laws, he considered the affairs of towns and cities to be amongst the first. These laws should be uniform, for the re as on that our farmers andrcountry traders need not b e perplexedwith different municipal laws in their communication with differ ent places; and for the other reason that ou r lawyers would nec essarily be be tter acquainted with mue nicipal a ffairs in general, ansd bet t er un dersta nd the d e cisions of the courts in regard to the m, one decision would answer for all; and for the further reason, that by t he suggestions of the e xper ie nce of all the towns in the State, we would be able grad ua lly to obtain better city regulations than w e n ow h ave. Some eight years since, the city of Cin cin nati go t a law passed fo rpef the or g anization of the ir fire de partmen t; an d that la w had, since th at time, been pas sed for eleven o ther cit ies of th is State, and each one of them containing some slight improvement. And now, after eight years experience, the people of Cincinnati were again before the Legislature, asking for au entire new law upon this subject, and for the repeal of the old one. The reason of this second application was, that the old law was not well considered by the Legislature, and that the amendments made since were specially made and not generally. It was drawn up by the City Attorney, and passed the General Assembly as a mere local measure, without that scrutiny which the importance of the subject deserved, and which a general law would have received. He referred also to the charter of the city of Toledo containing seventy sections, and powers of the most enormous extent, which eas passed the General Assemblv without having been once read understandingly n either body. The same neglect occurred, and it was remarked by many, upon the passage of the charter, that it never could pass as a general law, while it did pass as a local law for Toledo, at the request of the immediate representative. The neglect of proper legislative attention was the great complaint against all local and special legislation. The provisions of the general laws were much more subjected to investigation and scrutiny, in both branches of the General Assembly. He would say, then, give us a general law for the regulation of all towns and cities, and my word for it, powers will be less apt to be granted than by special act. And if we have a good law, let us all enjoy the benefit of it; and if there is anything wrong in it, let all be interested in its rectification. In1 this way wre could avoid all the trouble and difficulty growing out of a too facile method of passing special city charters. Special legislation was the great evil under which our cities now labored. His colleague had told the eon';,~ention that we had an ocean of power here in Cicinl:l:ti, lut. the fact was, that the charter of this city~ was not near as liot'rai Ms that of many other townTtS st c{~he State.'l'rle charter of the city of Toledlo, w!(:;t mnuch more liberal, in fact) it Mr. GRAY moved a call of the Convention, which was ordered, and Messrs. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blair, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Clark, Collings, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahog,a, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Hunter, Kenhon, King, Lawrence, Leadbetter, Loudon, Manon, Mason, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Riddle, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stickney, Swift, Taylor, Townshend, Vance of Champaign, Williams, Woodbury and Worthington, were found absent. On motion of Mr. MITCHELL, the doors were closed, and the Sergeant-at-Arms despatched for the absentees. On motion of Mr. THOMPSON, of Shelby, all further proceedings under the call were dispensed with. The question pending being on the motion of Mr LEECH to strike out the word "special," in section one of the report number one of the committee on Corporations oh ther than Corporations for Banking, Mr. LEECH demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 18. nays 73, as followvs: YEAs-Messrs. Barbee, Blair, Brown of Carroll, Gray, Hootman, Jones, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Mitchell, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, Stickney, Stidger, and Thompson of Stark-18. NAYS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey. Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, H end erson, H itchcock of Geauga, Holmes Holt, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnsor Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Morehead, Morris. McCloud, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wvandot, Stanton, Stilwell, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-73. So the amendment was rejected. The question then beo sing on striking out section one, Mr. GROESBECK moved to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out, by inserting after the word "act," the following words: "Except for municipal purposes." er. GROESBECK said: his intention in offerin, this amendment was simply to avoid what he consid. ered would be an embarrassment, if not an absurdity 657 AFTERNOON r3ESSION. 2y2 O'CLOCK, r. m. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TTuFSDAY, FEBRUARY I S8. gislature should pass no law incorporating towns and ,cities? A Volcm. "No special law-" Mr. RANNEY. But then how, when the Legisla. ture should come to define the limits of towns or cities, how could that be done without a special law? He could see how they could make a law that any city coming up to a certain number of inhabitants might assume certain municipal powers; but then where would be the territorial limits, divisions and sub-divis ions. The second section provided for the formation of corporations under general laws. Was it the meaning of this section that the Legislature should pass general laws, authorizing any number of men, to get together in ordetr, to build a rail road with power to take 1)ri vate property for that purpose? If that was the in terpretation it would be going into the pictures a little further than he was willing to go. He did not know that such would be the true interpretation of the sec tion, but it seemed to him, that t he convention ought topause and reflect before passing upon this report; and he would merely throw out these suggestions to induce reflection upon the subject. He would be glad to hear from the chairman how these two sections were to work together, and learn whether there was any foundation for his doubts. Mr. KIRKWOOD said, there was another consideration of difficulty frequently arising out of the extent and limits of towns. It was not unfrequently thecase that in order to escape taxation, the citizens of a town would build their residences outside of the corporation limits, and in process of time it would become desirable to extend the limits of the town, for the purpose of including these outsiders; and in order to settle the questions continually arising between such portions,he was inclined to think that the amendment of the gent leman from Hamilton, (Mr. GROESB:CKS,) was necessary. Mr. REEMELIN said, if his frien d from Trumbull (Mr. RA.uNtY,) had rea d th ese two sectio ns and considered them in c onnecti on wit h the whole re por t, he would have found no room for doubt or difficulty. The first section was a mere declaration that corporate powers could not be conferred by a special act of the Legislature. It was plain tha t the people of any neighborho o d might form themselves into a town or cibv, withou t the heal of a special law from the General Assembly if a proper general law was made. And if the gentleman would read the sixth section of th e re port, he wo uld flnd that the gen eral law clause did not refer t o corporation limits,but to the organization and powers oftowns and cities. It was the mere frame work by which they were to be governed, which was to be furnished by general law. He proceeded to illustrate the evils of special legislation with reference to the organization of towns and cities, by referring to the history of the application by the democrats and whigs of Cincinnati, for the division of the city into wards. The former asking that the division might be made by the General Assembly, and the latter asking for authority to make these divisions by the city council. In this application he considered that the whigs were right, on principle, though the application was then made for party purposes. Had other cities been interested iln the matter, it would have been adjusted on the right ground at first, and we would have been saved all the various gerrymanders, which have taken place in this city. lie referred, also, to an ordinance, passed by the council of Cincinnati, levying a tax of a quarter of a dollar upon every market wagon that might come into the city. This matter was regulated by act of the contained more enlarged municipal powers, than the cities of London and Paris-powers of legislation, which it seemed to him no man in his senses, could think of conferring upon any municipality. He would undertake to guarantee, if this report were adopted, that in less than tn years hence, good and wholesome, and municipal laws would be enjoyed inr every town and cit y in the St ate of O hio. For these reasons, and from cotsider ations of economy, to which he might re adily r efer, h e h oped the amendmnent of his col league woul d not be adopted. The question as to being able to pass a general law regulating citi es of a h undr ed thousand inhabitants, and the s am e law g ov erning cities or towns, of only five or ten thousand, was easily obvia ted, by clas sification, having two grades for cities, and classifying towns and villages. The cit y limits might be fixed by special law, for that was not precluded by the section, but it could be do ne by general law, perm itting the citizens to vote them s elve s for the limits they desire. At any rate, it could be done by genera l law, and if n ot, then the sp ecial pro v is ion waI still o p en. Mr. GROESBECK said the objections which he had made to the section as it now stands, were not answered by his c ol league, although he confessed that he had thrown s om e ligh t upon the subject. He could no t yet see how this thing could be conducted by gen eral law, although he had never considered the matter as he ought, in order to form a very deliberate judg. ment. But the quest ion still recu rred, was it proper to give to a towne of a thous and in habitant s, the same pow er, which should be exercised by a city of an hundred thousand? Take such a municipal corporation as this, with its mayor and council of thirty men, with its ter. ritorial divisions into wards, its water works, its fire department, its extensive police, and other machinery of government, which he might refer to, and it seemed to him that it was only necessary to look at it, for his colleague or any other gentleman, to see that it would be en. tirely improper that such powers should be cotnfided to a town of a small population. Take a town of five or ten thousand, with its officers and agents, in whom the people confide, was it to be supposed, that the people of such a town, could desire a council invested with all the powers which are required to be exercised in a city of the magnitude of Cincinnati? Would there not be a strong temptation to abuse? Are not gentlemen satisfied, that the exercise of such powers in such a town, would be both unnecessary and undesirable? He was not yet satisfied, that every town should be put under the same regulations, and that small bodies of men, should be governed by the same rules as larger bodies; one located upon a river, another upon a lake coast, and another in the interior, and all having different interests. It seemed to him, there was great propriety is allowing to the Legislature, the latitude of adapting charters of incorporation to the peculiar wants of the several communities applying for them. He remembered now to have observed upon former examination of this report, that in every one of the States which had adopted the plan of general corpora. tion laws, such as New York, Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin, California, and others, they had been compelled to make this exception. In all their constitutions, authorizing general corporation laws, they had been careful to make the exception he had Just submitted. Mr. RANNEY confessed, that he did not fullyd comprehend this report. He would like to know from the chairman of the committee, (Mr. NORRIs,) how it would work in practice. The first section provides that the Legislature shall pass no special act conferring corporate powers. Wias it intended here, that the Le- | e h f e d eFt h .s I y 9 t e d t t d r 0 d e f r I I f 658 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATET —TESDAY, FEBRUARY 18. General Assembly, by specially denying the right to! Kennon, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, levy such a tax; while a general law would have regu-I Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Peck, Ranney, lated it for every other town and city in the State of Scott of Harrison, Snmith of Highland, Smith of War Ohio, and all the farmers of the State would have had ren, Stilwell, Thompson of Stark, and Worthington the benefit of that law, while now other cities might -42 levy suchl a tax and fleece the farmers surrounding NAYvs.-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, who might visit their market. Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr. Forbes, Greene of De The annexation of territory to a townI or city might fiance, Gregg. Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, be effected by a special act, which would not be pro- Holt, Hootman,Humphreville, Huntit, Johnson, Jones, hibited by these general provisions. But the frame King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, workl of all municipal governments in the State should i Manon, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, be regulated by general law. Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Alr. TAYLOR said it was questionable whether a Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stickney, Stidg fair construction of the amendment of the gentleman er, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompsonl of Shelby, from Hamilton, (Mr. GROESaECK,) would not imply Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, a distrust of the capacity of the Legislature. It seem- and President —5?. ed to him that if we admit corporations for internal iSo the motion to strike out section one was re improvement and manufacturing purposes, could be Sected. regulated by general law-if that principle was worth Mr. STILW Mr. STILWELL moved to ftlrther amend the re asserting at all in this place-,It seemed that the gen- port by adding to the end of sectioi four, the follow tleman ought to be willing to surrender his doubts as to the practicability of bringing towns and cities under ug the provisions of a general law. xcept in cases where the General Assembly He concurred fully in the view of the other gentle He concurred fully in the view of the other gentle Ishall by contract heretofore made, have provided a man from Hamilton, (Mr. REEIMELTN.) He saw noth, different mod or rule of taxation." ing in the various municipal corporations of the State, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and ays, which were MAordere,andresulted yeas 36d nays, whichfol which would necessarily require different formulas f were ordered, and resulted yeas 36, nays 59-s ol government to proceed from the Legislative body. To lows yield the principle in its application to towns and citi YEA Mes srs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont. would never do, he would sooner abandon it in re fer-'g e y, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickens. eonce to other corporations. derfer, Brownt of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chum The question being on Mr. GaROESBEcK's amendment. hbers, Collings, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Gra Mr. HORTON dermand2ed the yeas and nays, which ham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of were ordered, and resulted yeas 43, nays 45-as fol- Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Kennon. Larsh Mason lows: Morelhead, Mornis, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Scott YFAS.-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont- |of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, gomery, Barnet of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Stanton and Stilwell-'i6. I ASt-e.Bair,n CahdSill,Caey, C ok,6.r Brown of Athens, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Col- NAS-Messrs Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Cook, Dor Nys.Ewing,sr Flarr, Forbes, Grany, Greeofk Defiace lings, Cook, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, sy, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Ilamilton, Harlan Hitch- re Groesbek, Hard, awkins, ederson,Hole cock of Geauga, Horton, Hunt, Hunter, Johlinson Holt, Hootman, lHumphreville, Hunt, Jolhnson, Jones, Kirkwood, Leadbetter, Mano, Morehead, Morris King, Kirk wrood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, LeadbetMcCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Smith ter, Lidey, Loudon, Maton, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, of Highlaid, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Thompson |Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemnelin, Ridof Stark, Vance of Butler, Wilsoni ald lWorthington (i(e, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith -43. of Wyandot, Stickney, Stidger, Strui)le, Swan, Tay NAYS.-Messrs. Blair, Brown of Carroll, Cahll,!or, Thompson of Shelby,'T'hompson of Stark, Vance Chaney, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Worthington and Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, President-59. Hootman, Jones, King Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill So the amendment was rejected. MrSRHBL ovdtfuther amendmten wsrejetd Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Norris. Orton, Pat- Mr. ARCHBOLD moved to further amend the Reterson, Qaigley, Reemelin, Roll, Scott of Harrison port by striking out all after the word corporation, in Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stan- the commencement of section 2, and inserting in ieu toin, Stickiney, Sti(Iger,Struble, Swift, Taylor, Themnp. thereof the following son of Shelby, Warre, Way Woodry and Pr Shall be created and governed by general laws. dent-45. And no corporate powers shall be granted in perpe So tile amendrment was rejected, and the question re- Ituity but for a term of years onrly. Anid the corporate Sthamnmnacurreed upon tstriking out.r powers of any comipany associated for the construccurred upon strik~ing out.'IIJ Mr. EWART moved to further amend the wordsi tion of a canal, railroad, plankroad, turnpike, bridge, Mropse.t be stickenout to furtheri amend the words I aqi'educt or other line of internal improvement, shall proposed to be stricken out by striking out the word! not be revoked or annuled by the General Assembly "Legisl ature," and inserting in lieu thereof the words on account cf any breach of the law of incorporation, -,Ge neral A ssembly," which was aikgr eed to. until the guilt of the company shall have been ascer The question then being on striking out the whole tained in a court of record by the verdict of a jury of section one, Mr. BLAIR demanded the yeas and nays, which according to the ordinary rules of law and evidence. But the corporate powers of any such company were ordered, and resulted yeas 42, nays 53-as foI- may at any time be dispossessed amd taken away by lows: the General Assembly, provided that body shall cause YEAs. —iMessrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont- full and adequate compensation to be made to the gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickens- company out of the treasury or treasuries of the counderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of ty or counties, city or cities, demanding the repeal beHocking, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Florence, Gil- fore their corporate powers shall cease. lett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Ilar- And corporations for purposes not herein enumeralan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, ted may be visited, altered, modified, or repealed in 43 .659 660 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESnAY, FEnRUARY 18. the manner prescribed in tihe act authorizing their cre Mr. ARCHBOLD wished to say a few words in exation." planation of his motion, which he did not know but Mr. STANTON demanded a division. what it was the object of the gentlemait from Logan, The question then being on striking out all after (Mr. S'rANTON,) to supersede. He earnestly hoped the word "corporations," inI section 2. that the amendment of the geutleman from Logaln Mr. STANTON moved to perfect the words propos-' would not prevail; for he could see no benefit that it ed to be stricken out, by striking out all after the would confer. It offered no cure, no plaster for the word "provided," and inserting in lieu thereof, the wound. All the benefit it proposed for the loss of following: charters was in the case where capital had been in "That upon such repeal the real and personal pro- vested; and besides it made provision only for existperty, monies, and credits of the corporation shall ing corporations. Could not the gentleman cast his vest in the individual corporators, subject to the lia- eyes a few years in the future and regard the interbilities of the corporation. And when any franchiseo ests of those that are to follow us. These wvere some has been granted to a corporation, upon the faith of of his objections to the gentleman's amendment, and which, capital shall have been invested, which fran- he hoped that it would be rejected and that his prochise shall be taken away by the repeal, compensation position would have a fair hearing. shall be made to the corporators for the capital so in- This was a subject in whlich tlihe body had been envested, or the franchise so taken, in the same mnanner, gaged for the last eight days. He supposed gentlethat compensation is required to be miade, when pri- men did not wish to force us back again to the oldexvate property is taken for public use." ploded intolerable system of State treasury grants for Mr. FARiE demanded a division. internal inproveinents. The question then being on striking out all after the Mr. ACenBOLD then proceed(ed to explain his word "provided." own amendment submitted by him, with reference Mr. STANTON said it was difficult for gentlemen to his proposition that in the first place no charto vote understandinigly upon an important amend- ter should be bestowed in perpetuity, but for a ment with no further examination than could be de- term of years only. There was a repeal executed, it rived from a single reading. He hoped, therefore, to was not a provision meaning anything and nothing, be indulged a mnoment by way of explanation. it was a repeal thlroighltoni;. It bound all chartered coin. He had endeavored to get rid of some of the diffi- panies to good behavior; for if they did not behave culties which had been suggested in the tedious dis- well the General Assembly w ouild unquestionably recussions on thie repeal quesiton. fuse to renew their charter. This also cuts off all dif In the first part of his amendment it was provided ficulty about binding up posterity ill the enactment that upon the repeal of any charter the tangible pro- of charters. It was like the sword of Damocles forperty, money and credits of the concern should vest, ever suspended over the head of men to incite themi in the individual corporators, subject, however, to all to good conduct. It was a perpetual recogilisaticee of the liabilities of the company. So far in the discus good behavior and politeness. sion he had heard no objection to his provision. It With respect to unqualified repeal to be exerted uphad not been claimed that either the visible property oln corporations ilidividLally, hlie gave it as his opinion or the money and credits should be sacrificed by the that if such a constitutional provision were adopted, act of repeal. He believed that it had beeni adm'itted I here never would be anotherturnpikeroad constructon all sides that these ought to vest in the individual td by the money of a corporation in the State of stockholders. Ohio The principal subject of controversy had arisen up- But parties were liable to quarrel, and complaints on the subsequent part of the amendment. It was were likely to be made to the Geneural As-embly, this, that wIheit anv franchise had been granted upon agaiist tie acts of corporatious, and fie tad p)rvided a the faith of vliceh capital had been invested, in thle plan for dealing with these accused cotynpai,ies. event of the ta,-king away of such a franchise, comnpen- If the Geuneral Assenmbly were to!Ike it upon themsation should be imade. This provision excluded all selves to try these cases they would have to decide upidea of paying for a naked franchltise which had not ol tlhenl of course, either with or without evidence. been accepted —under which nothiing lhad beenii done, i If they decided without procf it would be but a mere and uponi the faith of which nlo capital had been in- edict, devoid of all the eleiuents of moral sirei,gtlit. vested. But in the case where tli(here has been granted lo would respect a judgoiennt, made up without a corporate franchise upon the faith of which capital proof? Does the Roman law condemn any mlan, withhas been invested, and where the charter has noit been out hearing lhim. violated, he claimed that the franchise should not be But he had provided in these cases of accused corpotaken without some compensation for the franchise rations, a court and a fair trial. He would condemn no itself, or for the capital inivested upon the faith of the man without a hearing; and hie did not believe any grant. He - outld not apply the rule lwhen the chlar- constitution would be aceptable to the people of Ohio ter had been violated. Such cases properly belongedl cotainling such a provision. to the courts. But if the Gen(-ral Assem-tbly were to try these ca The repealing power ought only to be applied il ses upon the evidence, they would constitute a miost cases where franchises had beent improperly granted. expensive contit-a coiurt of i li undtred and fifty menri He desired to offer one word of explanation to his bers, and which court at least wold not be so well colleagues of the committe. He had embodied in this qualified for the trial as a inty of mr. in a court f proviso wht he intended the original proviso shoull justice. mean. Bub the termas of the original proviso left it Again, a case might arise in which a county migh doubtful as to whether the franchise was properly in- petition for tie repeal of a charter il older that the1 eluded in the word property, and whether the fran- might take the improvements of the ceipany to them chise itself would not vest in the corporators. selves. It might be desirable for them to throw ope: This was a matter of too much magnitude to be the gates of a bridge or of a turnpike road, anc[ it left in doubt. and therefore he had submitted a pro- that case it was provided in his proposition that th~ positioti which lie believed, if gentlemen would take county should pay the dainages resulting from sue2 the opportunity to examine it, would receive the sane- repeal. and have the advantage of the improvement ion of a majority of the body. And finally, Mr. ARCHBOLD said, that as other OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TuEsDAY, FEBRtUARY 18. enterprizes, such as the manufacture of iron, or wool, So the motion to strike out was agreed to. or cotton, could be carried on by the capital of indi- The question then being on inserting the words viduals, or partnerships, he proposed to leave incor- proposed bv Mr. STA-,TO.'-: porations foI such purposes, and indeed for all other Mr. GROESBECK said he had voted for striking purposes except internal improvement, to the repeal- out the proviso,,imiply because he did not dlesire to re iog power of the General Assembly, with one only taim it. The section as it now stood, asserted prospec restrition, and that is, that the mode of repeal should tive repeal; and now the vote uponi it would give a fair be prescribed in the act incorporating them. test of the sense of the convention upon the question, If his proposition should meet with a favorable re He had proposed and asserted the doctrine of repeal as ception, h would propose that no corporation should it was here, and he was still prepared to assert the same be fornied under these general laws, without special doctrine. leave of the General Assembly. This was necessary A great deal had been said about this report, and it in order to prevent the State from being shingled over had been conidemniied and called monstrous, and a great with too many corporations. Without such a provi- many hard names, but fie thought it would turn out sion, the numbers that might be formed might be tru- yet to be a pretty good report, and thiat it would survive ly alarming. y lr. STANTON said he had not ng.pooed that it all these attacks, and reproaches. He called it a very was sit ended in this constitution,to goptodedtatil agood report; and he thought that if genitlerneii who had was initended in this constitution, to go into detail and discussed and denounced it had looked into it and ex iprescribe the manner of winding up the busiuess of 1e- anined it, as they were wout to examine other propo. fii nct corporation, so minutely as to distinguish wheth- sitions, they would have hesitated before they uttered er the stock holders should hold the property of the such wholesale denunciations against it. He repeated concern as partners, or as parl owners; nor Iad he any ta f ie, wished to see idea of prescribing here a rule for the appointment of that th e ques tion stood Dow wfied tr~stes i suh cses alhouh, f i wold akehisthe vote upon it. In the constitution of the State of trustees in such cacetableu, lif it would make ilitS tN,w York, adop'ted four years ago was to be found the aineodndment more acceptable, lie would be willing tO doctrine of repeil asserted precisely in the words erm strike out the word "corporators," and insert "trus-i ployed in this rpport. tees," in the place of it. Mr. ARCHBOeD. (in his seat.) The gentlemai,' The gentleman froni Mconroe, (Mr. ArctCioLD,) readin is very dTffrent from mine. seemed to chiarv him with a desire to supersede the r g i Mt r.GROESBECK. Since the gentleman from anoendmeg t which that gentleman hiad proffered. i uth Monroe had takeniissue upoii the questioii, lie would nothing could be farther from his purpose, thain that. trouble the Convention with reading from ithe Conisti. The fact was, his amendment would have been cut off tution of New York upon this subject. Mr. G. here entirely, if he had not offered it at the time lie di(]. read from the coustitution of New York, a sectio.i gengetleini hraod also affirmed, that his, (Mr. Sef,) which closed a, follows-,'All general laws and special ainen,i'tnriot, provide-d olily for corporations heretofore,cts passed pursuant t, this section, may be altered created, but thie fact was, it extended to all corporations,, fiomltime to lime or repealed." that should he in existence at the time of the repeal. Here is precisely the language of this report. "ow Again, the comnuttee certaiiily supposed that they what was there in that orovision so very monstrous. were preparing an article, which should be applicable We had here a precedent for the adoption of this priiito legislation, which might be had under this constitu- ciple, furnished by the first state in this Unioii-a state first in commercial importance and in which interna,l lie intimated, in conclusion, that his friend from improvements bad been prosecuted to a larger extent, Geauga, (Vr. HITCILCOiC,) must have changed his mind than in any other state: and these works of internal with reference to this report, for upon looking over the improvements, were still being prosecuted under this proceodiugs last sumnier, it will be seen, that the gtn- very constitution. Lie might also refer to the Ccnstityeian teded the column where he stood, and he re- tuion of the slate of Illi00s-the Conctituious of rnembe.1 that lie, lhimself, wae: very glad to serve un Wisconsi, Iowa, Michigan, Missouri anid Californiader the lead of that gentleman. all the receunt state coostitutions-and show in each flhe question thenii beitig on striking out all aftei and all of them, that this doctrine of repeal was astiae wo Provided ccsrtei prectsely in the same sense if not in tie s0ame Mri IXMI TGN denianded the yeas and nlavs, language employed in this report. 'rore-ed, and resulted-yeas oS, niays 37, 1 hchre o rdeo s!teow here was Iretty good authority-all the recent as follows: constitutions which had been formed iii the Uniioii-he Yrea Ms.-essrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnett of Mont- dii not klow, tlat there could be found an exception. gomery, Brniett of Prebhe, Bates, Bennett, Blair, They hadi all come forward, and asserted the same docBlickeosderfer, Brown of Atben ts, Brown of Carroll, trine. Cose of Hlocking, Clhambers, Collings,Ciirrv, Ewart. ie wanted no proviso added to this:ection. lie Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green woued assert the doctrine in the language which we of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Htirn,,Huwkins, find he,e These provisos shoult all be voted out. Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Horton, HLimpliretille, If the General Assembly shlou!d t ake way a charter lunt, Hui'er, Job.0,on, Kennon, Larsh, Mason, More- granted under a general law, the terms arid conditions head, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, of the repeal could Ie just as wei! settled by the liePatterson, Peck, Perkiis, Ranneiy, ReePnelin, Scott of gislatori. in the law, as in the constitution. otarri on, Smith of Hligliland mitt of Warren Star -be Legisature would i.o doibt be o'refal to say ia too, Stickney, Stilwell, Vance of Butler, Woohbury, the genueral laiw fliat the terms an] codlitions oif reical Warren, aiid Worthington-58. s h oold be sizpiiiar to those now prolposedi 1o be affixedl in Naios. Geenes Arhof d Defianc, Greggy, Hard, ey, the shape of provisos to this section. lte could see no Ewin, Geeneof efiace,Greg, Hrd,Hend~.rson, necessity for their application here. Let us leave out Htolmes: Jones, Ktog, K'rk wood. Lawrence, Larwill, provisos. He would smeud the section ini aiiother way Leech, Lead better, Lidey, Loudeii, Mation, Mitchell -hut not by way of proviso or qoalificatien. Qoigley, Riddle, Ploll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize' Mr. ARCHBOLD) in reply to the gentleman fr'om Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stidger, Struble, Swa:n' Hamilton, (Mr. Giroi.sarcir,) said he did not flunk Taylor. Thompson of Shelby? Thompson of Slark, ther~ wea~'.'~ retroe~ectiv, repeal in the Conesiitution l; ny, ~;ilsoa and Presideict —37.,[~of New York. The words woula uo[ biar sucis a 6 oll 662 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNrE,-AY, F.,BRJtRAY 19. Quigley, Ranney, Reemielin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Srnmithof Wyatidot, Stan ton, Stickney, Stinger, Strxble, Swan,Taylor, Thomp son of Stark, Way, Wilson, and( Pretident-52. So the amendment was rejected. The question then being on agreeing to the amernd ment of Mr. AmenHBOLD: Mr. SWAN demanded a division. The question then being on striking oult all after the word Corporation: fmlMr. SAWY,ER demanded the yeas and cays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 34, niays 58, as followvs:'~ YEAS-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnett of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, Blickeiisderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton) Harlan, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Kentoion, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, MeCloud, Nash, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Hlighland, Snith of Warren, Slantonl, Stilwell, Vance of Bualer and Worthinigton-34. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Preble, Blair, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Cihaiey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, H-itchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootmana, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, King Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leecr, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loundon, Mitchell, Morris, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemrnelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sel).ers, Smrith of Wyandot, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, W ay, Wilson, Woodbury and Presidenit-58. So the mnotion to strike out was rejected, The question then being on ordering the section to be engrossed: Mr. STICKNEY demanded the yeas and nays. which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 57, nays 40, as f1llow,s: YEAS. —Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Case cf Hocking, Chaoney, Cook, Dorsey, E w ing, Farr, Forbes, Gray,Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groestieck, Hard, Hawkins, Headerson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Humphreville Hunt, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ratnev, Reemelini, Rididle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelbv, T'Ihomnpson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodburv, and Presidenlt-57. NaYs. —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Borbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett E nlllickensderfer, Brown of Atlhenis, Brown of Carrol,i Chambers, Coltl',s, Curry,.Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, harlan Hfootuan, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Kennhn, Larsh, Leadbetter, Mason, Morehlead, Morris. McCloud, Nash,Otis, Pech, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Waren, Stanton, Stillwell and Worthington-40. So section twvo was ordered to be engrossed. On motion of Mr. HAMILTON, The Convention adjourned till to-morrow morning at nine o'clock. construction. The language was that all laws under which corporations existed in the state of New York, might be altered, repealed, &c. But did that effect corporations in existence before tlhe adoption of that Constitutiont? A New Yorker would say that it would not. Btt before gentlemen appealed to the Constitu tiou of New YorK as a precedent, he considered that it wouldi be better for them to wait until the ink should have time to dry upon the paper upon which it was written. If he would take the time, he, could easily sl-how that the gentleman was mistaken in his assertion that the Constitution of Illinois contained the doctrine of this rep ort, and h e did not know but tha t he was mistaken also, in respect to his reference to the Constitutions of vichigan, California ard the rest. Th e question then being on inserting the words proe Dosed by Mr. STANTON, Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 19, iTay s l4, a s follows: YEAs.-Messrs. B arbe e, Bates, Bennett, Blickens. derfer, Brown of C arroll, Cha obers, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Hamilto n, Hortoan, Mason, Nash, Scott of HarrOison, Smith oOf Higfland, Stanton, Stilwell.-19. NAYS.-Messrs. And rews. Archbold,Barnet of Montgorner-y, Ba rnett of Pretle, Blair, Cahill, C ase of Hocking, Chaliiey, Cool, Dorsey, Eaing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, G re o esbeck, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Itenderst)om,Hitchcock of Geauga, Htolrnes, Holt, fIootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Rearsr, Lawneubce, Larwill, L eech. Leadbetter, Lidey, Loud o n, Maoon, Mitchell, Moreheal, M orris, lcCloud, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers,Smith of Warren, Smith of Wvyndot, Stickney, Stidger, Strulule, Swani, T~,ylor, Thompson of Sheilby, Thompson of Stark, Vanice of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilsonl Woodbury, Worthington and Presideiit.-74. So the amentdmnent was rejected. Mr. STILWFLL moved to add after the word "Provided," in,ection 2, the following: "On such repeal, provision shall be nmade by law, for applying the property and assets of the corporationi to the paymenit of liabilities, and distributing the. residue among the stockitiolders, in proportion to their respective interests." Mr. LARWILL moved thle previous question. The question then being "shall the main question be now put," it was a-reed to. The question then being on agreeing to Mr. STILWEIL'S ameiidrroeit, Mr. LOUDON demnanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 41, niays 52, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barner, of Mointgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickeinsderfer, Brown of Athe,.ns, Brown of Carroll,Case of Hocking, Chambers, Collingy,s, Cook, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, (GrayN, Hamilton, Harlan, [lenderson, Hitch~cock of Oean~ga, Horton, Hulter, Johison, Kennon, Kirkwood, Maison, Morris, Me~loud, Nash, Otis, Peekt, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smnith of Hiighland, Slrnith of WaNON demanded the yeas and nays, which wrere ordered, and resulted, yeas 54, nay's 39, as follows: YArxs-Messrs. DBlair, Cabill, Chaney, Cook,Dorsey, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Greg~.,Groesbeck, H~ardl,Henderson, Holmes. Holt, Mulnt. -unter, Johnson, Jo:nes, Kennon, King, Kirkwvood, Lawrence, Leech, Leawdbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, McCor-. mick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quig ley, Ranney, Rleemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Au glaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and Presi dent-54. NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Col lings, Curry, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitch cock of Geauga, Hootman, Horton, Larsh, Manon, Mason, Morehead, MAorris,McCloud, Nashl, Otis, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Swan, Thompson of Shelby, Williams and Worthington-39. So further proceedings under the call were dispens ed with. The question then being on striking out section four as amended. Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, moved the previous ques tioa,, The qustion then being "shall the main question be now put." Mr. EWING demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, aLnd resulted, yeas 72, nays 24, as fol lows-. YEAS.-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickens. derfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Hard, Harlan, Htwkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humphlreville, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Lidey, Lou don, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris. McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Raniiey, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harri. soni, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Stru ible, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Ttiomp.soa of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Way. Wilson, Woodbury and President-72. NAYS. — Messrs. Archbold, Chambers, Coilings, Curry, Florence, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hunt, Kirkwood. Larsh, Lawrence. Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, McCloud Nash. Otis, Reemelin, Stilwell, Vance of Butler, Williams and Worthington-24. So the demand for the previous question was sus. ' tained. The question then being on striking out section 4, as amended, Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 41, nays 57, as follows: YEAS —IessArs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble. Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Browvn of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Ewart, Flore nc e, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hal-Ian, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Kennon, Larsh. Mason, Moi ehead, Morris, Mc. Cloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smiith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Sbilwell, Swan, Wilir,a.s, and Worthington-41. NAYS —Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey, Ewinig, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootmnan, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, JoihnSson, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, i OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 19. YrAs-Messrs. Andrews,Archbold. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble. Bates, Bennett, Bllickensderfer, Brown of Athens. Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, ( hambers,Cook, Dorsey, Ewart,Ewing, Florence,Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawlins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Kennon, Kirkwood, Lou. don, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, T-tis, Patterson, Peck, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, S.-ith of Warren, Stanbery, Stillwell, Swan, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Warren, Woodbury and Worthington-5o. wNAYs-Messrs, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Collings, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones. King,.arsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey,Mitchell, M[cCormick, Norris, Orton, lPerkins, Quigley, Raornney, theemelin, Riddle, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wlyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Starkl, Way, Wilson and Pres ident-48. Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Way, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury and President-57. So the Convention refused to strike out section 4. The question then being on ordering section 4 to be engrossed, as amended. Mr. GREGG demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 60, nays 37, as follows: YrEAs-S-essrs. Blair, Callill, Case of Hocking, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewinig,Farr, Forbas, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hlard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humplhreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Strnble, Swift, Tavlor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-60. NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Milontgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Graham, Gre en of R oss, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Kennon, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, tiash, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smi th of Highliand, Srmiith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, Williams, and Worthington-37. So the section was ordered to be engrossed. The question then being on ordering the remaining sections of the Report to be engrossed, to-wit, sections one, three, five and six. On motion of Mr. LIDEY, the Convention took a recess. So the amendment was adopted. The question then being on the engrossment of sections one, three, five and six, Mr. RANNEY demanded a division. The question then being first on ordering section one to be engrossed, Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 58, nays 41-as follows: YEAS.-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Lidey, Iloudoi, Manon, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-58. NAYS.-Messrs. Andrew3, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chanibers, Curry, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of GeaLga, IfortoMl, Hunter, Kennon, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Mviorris, McCloud Nash, Otis, Peck, Ranney, Scott of I-arrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren. Stanbery, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan and Worthintgton-41. So the first section was ordered to be engrossed. The question then being on ordering section 3 to be engrossed, Mr. MORRIS demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 61, nays 38-as follows; iYEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Colilings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiane, Gregg, Gro-sbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henliderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Strnble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, T'homnpson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson and President.-61. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of MontSoinery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, ilarlai, hIitchcock of Geauga, Hertoi, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, N.-sh, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of High zrT.RNOON SSSmIO.x. The question being on ordering sections one, three, five, and six to tee engrossed, Mr. STILWELL moved to further amend the rep or t i n section 5, in the first part of the same, by inserting after the word "money," the dwords "or first s ecured by a deposit of money." Mr. HARD mlov ed t h e previou s question. The questi on then be ing "shall t he main qu estion be now put, Mr. BROWN of C arroll dem ande d th e yeas and nays, wh ich were ordered, a nd resulted-yeas 55, n lays 38, as follows: YEAs —M essrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee,Barnet of Mont gemery, tlates, Blair, Blicliensderfer, [frown of Athens, Cahill. Chambers, ('olo. Dorsey. Ewart. Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, (Greene of l,efiance, Gretg. Hard, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, liumphreville, Hunter, Johnson, KITig, Lidey, Liudoin, Mason, Mitchell, Mlorehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, (,rton, Otis, Patterson, Quigley, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Xvyandot, Stebbins, Stilwell..ticik ney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-55. NAys —Messrs. Barniett of Preble, Brown of Carroll, Cha ney, Coilings, Curry, Florence, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Grc.esbeck, Harmilton,Harlani, Hawkins, H olmes, Holt, Hootmaii,llunt, Jones, Kirkwood, Larsb, Lawrence, larwi Leech, b,cad better, MI cCormick,tleck,Perliins. Rainney, Riddle, Scott of Harriscni, Snmoth of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery,Stidger, Swan, Vance of Butler, Warren and Worthington —38. So the demand for the previous question was sustained. The question then being on agreeing to the amendmefnt of Mr. STILWYELL, Mr. STILWELL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 52, nays 48, as follows: 667 668 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESD,AY, FEBRUARY 19. land, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell Worthington and Woodbury.-38. So the third section was ordered to be engrossed. The question then being on ordering section five to be engrossed, Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 57, nays43, as fol lows: YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of Montgomerv, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahlill, Chlia ney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gil lett, Graham, Gray, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootmati, Humphlreville, Hulnt, Johnson, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Lar will, Lidey, Manon, McCormick, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reemrreli, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Smith of Wyandot, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler. Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President —57. NAYs-Messrs. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Florence, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross,Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of GeLuga, Holt, Horton, Hunter, Jones, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Loudon, Masoi, Mitchell, Morelhead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Peck, Raiiney, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Snmith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stidger, Swani and Thompson of Stark-43. So the fifth section was ordered to be engrossed. The question then being on order;ng section six to be engrossed, Mr. BROWN of Carroll demanded the veas and Days, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 67, nays 31, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Caliill, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey' Ewart, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Huist, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, Miaiion, Morehead, McCormick. Norxis, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren. Stiifil of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilvell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, and President-67. NAYS —Messr,s. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of MoIntgomery, Bates, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Florence, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Mason, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Peck, Ranney, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, and Worthingtoni-31. So the sixth section was ordered to be engrossed. On motion, the Report was ordered to be read a third time on Thursday the 20th inst. Mr. LARSH moved to amend this sec tion by strik ing out the word "superior," in the last clause, and insert in lieu thereof, the word "inferior." This amendment was disag,reed to. "S,EC. 2. The Sliareme Cou.,'t shall consist of not less than five Judges, who shall bc elected by the qualified eleto-rs in such wmatneer as shall be presribl)ed 1by law; the term of service of Judges of the Supreme Court shall be five years i iit iiniiieiately after thefirstelection uniide:r this Con-istitution,',ie Judges thene elected shall be classified by lot, so thlat o0ie shal serve for one year; one, for two years, one, for three y,ears; one, for four years, and one foi five years; the one havin T the longest time to serve shall be Chief Jiidae; au(] thlereafte) the one longest in commission shall be Chief Je; the Sia'etrue Coi it shall have original jur-isdictioni in Huo,oWarranto, ~larrm;s Hal~eas Cot. pis, Pro,'ideida, and such other appcllate j,irisliction as shall be provided by law; it shall hold at east oole term in e ach year, at the seat of government. and such other ter,ms, at the seat of gov ernm-eitt or elsewvhere, as lay be provided! by), land, ad a rnajor-ity of the whole n,umbfer of Jmi,tes shall be a (I,)ol u"I' Mr. VANCE of Butler, moved to amend this sec tion b y striking out th e word "procidenda" and in sert ins in lie u t hereof, the word "procederiido. e." This amendmen t was adopted. Mr. LARSH moved further to amend the section by striking outt the word "otlhej," where it occurs after the word "such," and b efore tih e w ord app ellate." This amendment was also agree d t o. Mr. BROWN of Athe ns, move d furt her to amen d the Report by strikin g out the wor d "f ive," in the first line, and inserting the word "four," i n its place. Mr. MANON a sked for a division of the question; and then The first qTuestion being pon n striking out, it was decided in the negative. Mr. HIOLT moved further to amend the section by striking out the word "chief," where it, occurs before the word Mjudge," and inserti ng in lieu thereof, the word "presiding." He made this motion merely to ma ne the l anguage conform to truth. The officia l distinct ion "chi ef judge," was no where else used in this Report. The s e officers were a ll J udges o f the Supreme Court. The amendmen t w as rejec ted. Sec. 3. The Superior Courf shall cons ist one je of the Judges of th e Suprem e Court as Presidens t, and one or muore of the Judges of the Court o f Commmna Pleas, as Associates; the Superior Court shall have like origins! jurisdiction with the Supreme Court, a nd such further original jurisdiction i n civil and criminal matters at law and in equity, alyd such appellate jurisdiction for the tr i al of issues (af law and of fact. as shall be provided by law; te r ms o f the Sioparior Court shall be held annually or semi-annually, as shall be directed by law, in each of the counties withn this State, and Superior Courts may! be holdler at the same time in different counties Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to amend this section by striking out the words, "as president, and one or more of the judges of the court of common pleas, as associates,;' and insert in lieu thereof, these w-,ords, "and the threejudges of the court of common pleas in each district, any three of whom shall form a quorum." Mr. K., in explanation of his amendment, said: This section, as it now stands, makes this superior court to consist of one of the judges of the common pleas and one of the judges of the court in bank. These two may form a quorum to do business. The amendment which I have offered makes the three common pleas judges of the district with one judge of the supreme court, to constitulte this court: but any three of them may form a quorum. It will give at all events a court of three persons instead of a court of two persons. If this amendment shoukldbe adop~ted I believe it would reconcile me to the report. Mr. GREE~lN of Ross. If gentlemen will take the trouble to examine this sy stem carefully, thleywill see at once, that the committee have provided for the constant occupation of all the judges. They will findd that the Supreme Court is made to eousist of one judge of the TIIE J UDICIAI'LY. On motion of Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, the Convention resolved itself into a committee of the whole, (Mr. REEMIELIN in the Chair,) and took up the Report of the select committee on the Judicial Department, presented by Mr. LEADBETTF'R on the 5th inst. The Report having been read through by the Chairman, the consideration of the first section was announced. It is as follows: #S1Ec. 1. The judicial power of this State shall be vested ill a Supremije Court, Superior Courts, Courts of Common Pleas, County Cotirts. Justices of the Peace, and such other Courts inferior to the Superior Court, as may be created by law." OHIO CONVENTION UE]ATES —WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 19. 669 Supreme Court, and one or more judges of the Court sort, which we have here denominated the Supreme of Common Picas. The section is very carefully wor- Court, this latter court corresponding to what we at ded here. We have provided that more than one Corn- present understood by the Supreme Court in Bank. moe Pleas Court may be sitting at the same time, and in But we are not wedded to names, and would acquiesce the same district with the Superior Court. in any name which the convention might see proper to Gentlemen will perceive, also, that we have guarded give to this court. against a serious objection, which has been taken to a By the amendment of the report of the standing repoit of the standing committee, viz: that no judge committee, which were adopted by the convention, who has tried the case in the court below, shall sit upon and which, I suppose, may be considered as matter setthe bench of the appellate court in the same case; and tied and agreed upon, this district court, according to this matter the common pleas judges can arrange be- the plan proposed by the standing committee, was to tween themselves, so that the judge who presided in go into every county in the district. It is to be comthe particular coun tity where the superior court may be posed of three judges of the Commnon Pleas, and one sitting, shall not occ.upy that bench. judge uf the Su)reme Court, and is simply a court of The amendment of the gentleman front Riclhland, error, a sort of half-way house between the Court of (Mr. KIRKWOOD,) would destroy this arrangement. Commnon Pleas, and the court of final resort. In place By requiring three judges to constitute a quorum, you of this court, we have proposed to substitute another, to must compel some of the common pleas judges to sit be composed of one Supreme judge, and one or more in the trial of the same cases, upon the bench of the judges of the Common Pleas; and to give to these supeIior court, which they have already heard and de- courts exactly the same jurisdiction in these districts, cided in the court below. which is proposed by thie standing committee. We On account of the inattention of members generally, propose that this court shall stop all the cases that I do not know whether the present would be a proper must comie up upon error from the court of Common time to present the views of the select committee, with Pleas. This court will occupy the same position in this eference to the plan they have submitted. I should, respect, with that proposed by the standing committee. myself, have preferred the consideration of this subject But we propose to go a little farther than the standing upon a motion to strike out the plan proposed by the comnmittee-and instead of niakitig it sim-nply a paper standing comnuittee, and adopt in its place, the plan court, we propose to give it jurisdiction of questions of proposed by the select committee. It seems to me that fact; in.other words, to make it a niai prius court, as such a motion, in convention, would afford a better well as a court of error, corresponding in this respect, opportunity for stating the plan of the select committee, to our present Supreme Court, until the Legislature and exhibiting its details. took away from it that character, and made it simply a I would be willing to muve that this order be passed court for the correction of errors. over informally. and that the committee proceed to the I will now undertake to go into the reasons which consideration of thie next order. have induced the select coremittee to submnit this re And one word more. If any gentleman will exam- port. They are various, and to my mi-id, satisfactory ine the report of the committee, he will find that there and conclusive. But I will reserve them for a future is but one single point of difference between the plan of occasion. I will here say, that the plan of the standthestandingandtheplan of the selectcommittee. That ing committee mnighlit be well enough adapted, and difference consists simply in this: by the plan of the made to harmonize well enough with our report, by standing committee, the second jury trial, or in other simply changing so much of one of the sections, as to words, a second jury in the trial of questions of fact, give this appellate court jurisdictionti ol' the trial of matis dispensed with. ters of fact-by- adopting thiese words in the third sec By the report of the standing committee, par- tion of the report of the select cotumiittee, to wit: "for ties are deprived of this second jury trial upon questions the trial of issues of law aid of fact, as provided by law.'" of fact. The honorable Chairman of that committee, By a few very slight alterations in ether portions of the (Mr. KENNON,) shakes his head, but if their report does report, it could be made to conform well enough to the not say so, in so many words, the repeated declarations plan which we have submitted. of gentlemen upon this floor, and else where, leaves no Mr. COLLINGS. Tile course which I had proposroom to doubt that it was the intention of the standing 4d to myself is this: I had proposed that this commitcomtriittee, to cut off the second trial upon questions of tee should go through with the consideration of the fact by a jury. That is the way I understood the re- report of the select committee and when they should port, and that, I believe, is the general understanding have made such anicudmolnits as mighet be deemed deof it; and if this be not so, then I have been laboring sirabp, I had proposed that I would move to strike under a very great misunderstanding. out the whole, and offer the substitute which I myself Mr. HOLT, (in his seat.) It has been constantly so have heretofore submitted, and in this way test the understood all the way through. sense of the Convention upon tt)}y proposition. Mr. GREEN. So understood all tlreway through. Mr. RANNEY now moved that the Committee rise So I have understood it. The district proposed by the and report the bill anIa amendments to the Convetistanding committee, is to be simply a court of error, to tion. try cases upon the record; a paper court emphatically. Whiclh motion was agreed to, and accordingly the The plan of tihe select committee, differs only in this committee rose. and the chairman reported the bill regard, except so far as mere formalities may be con- back to tihe Convention with two amendments. cerited. On motion, of Mr. HITCItCOcK of Geauga, the bill The select commitee have adopted several of the and amendments were laid upon the table. provisions of the standing coiamittee, which they con- On motion of Mr. GRaEN of Ross, the Convention ceive important and proper to be ret'dined. took up the Report of the Standing Committee on the This, then, is the material point of difference between Judicial Department, with the pending amendments. the two reports. We have, it is true, adopted different The question being on agreeing to the first amendnames. We have called this court, which is to consist ment, recommended by the committee, to-wit: strike of one judge of the Supreme Court, and one or more out of section one the following words: judges of the Common Pleas, by the name of the Su- "And the proceedings of all Couirts in this State, shall be pubperior Court. This was done simply for the purpose tic at all tinmes, and aly person having any case pending or bustof distitiguishing this court from the court of last re- ness to transact therein, may appear either for himaseif or herself, 670 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES — EDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 19. or be represented by such citizen, as counsel, as such person may does not understand. The matter does not affect the choose; any law or usage to the contrary notwithstandinig." bar at ll, and I say again, if it is supposed that law Mr. LOUDON, I had the honor of proposing that yers oppose this proposition because they think it will amendment, and the satisfaction of teeing it pass the militate against their profession they are mistaken: committee by a very large majority. I recognize the and I regret exceedingly to find a feeling of this sort principle, Mr. President, that every citizen of Ohio, existing in this body. I have seen in the General who is competent to go into Court, should be at liber- Assembly. those persons who had no more liber,; ty to call upoil A. B. C., or whomsoever he will, to ality or common sense than to impute to gentle advocate his cause, I contend that hle ought to have men of the bar all sorts of evil thintgs and hold them in the liberty, either of appearing ill his own case, or if utter disrepute as members of the community; who he prefer it, of calling upon his friend to appear for were continually using all the time and talents they him, although that friend may not be a practising law- have to injure, and to encourage and foment quarrels yer. And now I want to know if this Convention is and litigations. Sir, I tell gentlemen that if it were prepared to compel a man to come into Court, and then not for the legal profession. you laymen, as you term compel him to employ a certain class of professional yourselves, would fitid yourselves frequently in most men to attend to his business for him? I trust, sir, inextricable difficulty. There are more difficulties and that the intelligence of the people of Ohio, has got a disputes leading to litigation, compromised and adjust little beyond that mark. ed through the influence of members of the bar, than Mr. SAWYER. [In his seat.]J You had better say through the influence of any other class of men in the at once that you will allow a darkey to come into community. And allow me to say to you sir, that the Court. great majority of lawyers are ho,nest, [A laugh.] You ~,JeOUDON. Well when you can make adarkey may find, I confess, now and then a black shieep a cit:le lthen I would allow him to come into Court, amongst them-an unworthy meniber-a man who wherever he may be called upon. would be unworthy in any profession in the commun Sir, I will call for the yeas and nays upon this ques- ity, but take the profession generally, and I miaintion, in order that we may see who are willing to re- taii that there is no class of more high minided, honor cord their votes against the proposition. able, atid honest men in the community, none who de Mr. LOUDON concluded by referring to a case in vote more of their time and talents to the prevention of the Circuit Court of Brown county, in which he was strife. concerned as administrator, but wherein the judge But Mir. Presidenit, I do protest and object personally, would not allow him to appear for himself, and there- against being compelled to stand up il court, in my fore he handed over the papsrs, which he had himself professional capacity, and litigate with a buck negro, prepared, to a lawyer, [the late lamented Geil. HAMER,] or a negro wench. [Laugltter.[ I do most positively and they were presented to the Court by his hatid,! and earnestly object to that-[contiiiued laughter]-to without the dotting of an i, or the crossing of a t, and any such thing as that. I have a little regard lor the that, upon his representation of tile case the decision profession to which 1 belong-so much so as to induce was had; and the lawyer received his fee for acting on- me to resist, at the threshold, any proposition to bring ly in this capacity between himself and the Court. up that class of the community, and authorize them to Mr. GREEN of Ross. I am with my friend from come into court either in cases where they may be Brown in this theory of the largest liberty. I am not themselves interested, or where they might appear for particularly attached to the practice of the law myself, any body else, and claim the right of appearing as and I would like to quit it, if my poverty would per- counsel. mit. But I want to say to my friend that he is alto- Mr. President. there is no sort of necessity for this gether mistaken in his idea, The courts of the state of proposition; because the existing constitution and law Ohio are now open to every man. Every man may of the land gives to every man who is capable of atcome into our courts. There is no prohibition in the tending to his own business, the privilege of coming inold Constitution; nor is there any provision in this re- to court and appearing there in his own behalf-in his port which is intended to prevent any man from going own proper person, under such regulations and restricinto court and attending to his own business. tions as the law may provide. Any gentleman will perceive, from an inspection I In conclusion I have a word to say to my friend from the ternms of this amnendment, that it authorizes any Brown who has offered this proposition. If it shall be person-man, woman or child, white or black, to go ~in- adopted, I desire that the first case that may arise unto the courts and be the advocates of their own rights der the new constitution may bring the whole "Red or the rights of those who may choose to'mploy Oak Seminary" concern into court, and that he may them. be the opposing party-and that no lawyer will agree Now this may be all very correct and proper in the to appear on either side. estimation of the gentleman from Brown, (Mr. Lou- Mr. ItUMPHREVILLE. I desire to offer a few re DON.) But by the amendment every individual has the marks explanatory of my votes upon this question right in the first instance to appear in his own behalf, I agreed in the committee, to report this amendment; or lie may employ somne citizen to appear for him. and that, of itself ought to be enoughto induceme to Why make this distinction? Why prevent a negro vote for it; but I have another reason, and that is my man or a negro wench fromn coming into court, either principal reason, and which, as I understood, operated to prosecute for others or for their own proper person? I upon the minds of the committee in recommnending How does the gentleman tuink such a rule would ope- this amendment; and that is, that the provision is not rate in his own county? 1 know his views upoti a in its proper place. I know some of the members of particular subject, and i am sure, that hedoes not real- the committee who are in favor of the provision, but ly intend what his proposition would lead to. who will now vote for striking it out because they If the gentleman supposes that it is because I am a desire to iucorporate it in some other place in the conmember of the legal profession that I oppose his stitution. And 1, myself, would prefer to have it in amendment, I wish to assure him that he is wholly a separate section, where, in the language of the genmistaken. I could never make the slightest oppositioti tleman from Franklin, it would not give the report a on that account, for this is a matter which works its black eve. own cure. No man will go into court, or employ any I wilt say to the gentleman from Brown, [Mr. Loubody to go into court, to attend to business which he, DoN,] that I am in favorof the principle of this amend I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES -WEDNESDAY, FLBRUARY 19. ment. I voted for it when it was put in here; and I it was desirable on the part of the committee, not to will vote for it again, in its proper place. bring upon these courts any discredit; not to place But I must also say to that gentleman that his pro- them in a situation where they would be overrun by osition is imperfect, and that it will not effect what a blackguardism from which they could not protect he desires to accomplish by it; for, if I understand its themselves, and where they could i)ot:preserve that orterms ariglht, it will give to no man the right to cornm der and dignity which should always pertain to a mence his suit. But if he happens to have a suit court of justice. It was the intention of the cornpending, then he may either appear for himself or call mittee to justify the wisdom of the people in demandin some other person to his aid. ing the election of their judges; and they desired to I assure thegentleiman that if this motion to strike throw around the courts that protection which reout prevails, and if he needs any aid of mine to per- suits from having those who are geitlemen and refect his proposition, I will lend it to him freely, and sponsible and respectable lawyers, as the only authorwill not charge him any thing for my services. [A ized practitioners before them. But under this prolaugh.] And after he shall have matured his propo- vision, both the court and the profession would be liable sition and get it all right, I will help him to put it in to very serious abuses. There is nothing in this prothe constitution somewhere. For I hold, with that vision to protect them from the presence of blackgentleman, that no man ought to be compelled to guards who might come in from the cities and large employ any particular class of men, or any particular towns; and who would come in, or be brought in, for attorney or itidividual, to appear for him in the courts. the express purpose of blackguartling tihe court, or the But I will go with him to give to every citizen, not lawyers, or some particular witness. All men are not only the privilege of appearing for himself, but by conscientious, just, and upright, and a man night be whomsoever he may prefer. And if this doctrine of brought before the court charged with crime, who progress extends much further, it will not be long be- might be willing to associate with himsipf and for his fore gentlemen will ask the privilege of commencing defence, a man no better than himiself-perhaps the their suits in any court that they may choose. I do last man who has escaped from the penitentiary, for not know but it may become necessary to give the the very purpose of bringing disgrace upon the bar, largest liberty in this respect, and allow a mad, if he -or upon the court itself. And the gentleman from chooses to commence his suitbefore the grocerv-keep- Brown is willing to adopt a provision which mlust ret er or the tavern-keeper of the neighborhood, rather suit in making the court an arena for all manner of than before the court provided by law. abuse and blackguardism-leaving the judges wholly Mr. MANON. The gentleman from Medina says without the power of controlling it-which might rehlie would vote for the proposition if it were in the suit in bring men into court to steal away the papers right place. This mode of avoiding an affirmative -to steal the indictment. For tile individual charged vote was becoming very common in this body. I at the bar might be a thief, and he would have the would like for the gentleman to tell us where the privilege of bringing in his accomplice to plead his right place for this proposition is to be found? cause. And the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. Mr. MASON. With the leave of the gentleman Rr.FMzLIN,) is undoubtedly in favor of the same propfrom Licking, [Mr. MANON;] I will state where might osition, for 1 see he is now making suggestions to the be found this right place for this proposition. gentleman from Brown, and I have understood that he Mr. MANON. Let us h,ve it. is the author of the proposition. Mr. MASON. The right place is not in this report, But sir, if this proposition is to prevail, our courts nor in this constitution any where; but the proper will be no place for gentlemen, but they will become place for it to be incorporated, if incorporated at all, the selected arena for blackguards, coming in under would be in the bill of rights. But every man in the this provision, so carefully arranged by the gentleman State of Ohio has always enjoyed the right of appear- from Brown. For if a man may employ any citizen ing in the courts in his own proper person-the con- to appear for him-he might even go so far as to emstitutional right to go into courts of justice, and there ploy a strumpet to come into court-all under the soltransact any business he may have to do. This re- emn sanction of a provision, introduced by the genmark has often been repeated, but still the gentleman tieman from Brown. [Laughter.] That may be the from Brown, [Mr. LOUDON,] complains that no man sense of propriety of the gentleman from Brown, but has a right to go into court, because, I suppose, it it was not the sense of propriety, of the committee. suits his purpose now to take that view, and insist, They desired toprotectthe courts,which the peopleshall upon it. establish, against all such loafers, and interlopers, of I cannot agree with the gentleman from Medina, I which there are many to be found, in every corner of [Mr. HUMPHP.EVILLE,] that every man in the communi- the State, and in all the grog shops, and coffee-houses, ty should have the right to go into court and set up of the darkest lanes and alleys in our cities; they de a common negro as an advocate, before our tribunals sired to guard against the possibility of such individu of justice. als, being engaged in the solemn and responsible busi Mr. HUMPHRiEVILLE, [interposing.] The gen- ness of the practice of law; they desired to protect the tleman has certainly misunderstood me. courts ofjustice from being turned into so many arenas Mr. MASON. I desire in two or three words to of disorder,and confusion and uproar. state to the Convention the reason why the Standi So far as the members of the committee are con Committees tsome of thei-I speak committee are on Committee, (some of them —I speak not for all,) re- cre esnly ontbleeta hycudb (5omnened te rjecton f tis poviionsI tinkcerned personally, I do not believe lhat they could be commended the rejection of this provision. I think there can be no mistake in saying that this recom- opposed to this provision, on account of any apprehen mondation of the committee of the~llole was agreedsion of interference with themselves, professionally. the, Whole was agrseqede They feel no concern at all about that; but they do feel to in a frolic, on the part of some, and in consequence ao rcnenfrtehnro h epe n h p j icea asstteleal pofesio on he arta proper conucern for the honor of the people, and the of a prejudice against the legal profession, on the part P of others. } protection of the courts; and that their business should But the reason why the Standing Committee thought continue to be conducted with the same order,and dig it not best to recommend the adoption of this provgis nity, and learning, and propriety in the courts, which ion, may be found in the following considerations. have characterized their proceedings heretofore. We are about to establish a system of judiciary in It is true, Mr. President, that I would not practice which the judged are to be elected by the people, and law side by side, with any blackguard, who might be 67 1 672 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WED)NESDAY, FEBRUARY 19. brought into ite court, for the purpose of blackguard-' Mr. TAYLOR. Sir, if this was simply a question irg nme or imy client. But Ishould be very willing to of the profession, or having respect to the orderly ad litigate with the gentleman from Brown. I should be ministration of the courts, it might comnmend itself to very willing for him to transact all the business he may us in a cifferent light firom whlat it seems to me that it have in the courts for hirmself; for he is a gentleman. now does. Butit tie question is, shall we tolerate in Aid I would be willing to extend the same privilege, the State of Ohio, in respect to this matter, an entirely (asindeedt it is noiow extended,) to every other gentle different role fromrn what obtains iii every other branch man in the State. But I would not allow a suitor of business and in every other form of aecy-for the the privilege of calling in any body, every body, and business entrusted to an attorney is nothing more than no body —whomtsoever he might choose-to appear and an agency. Iii every other business matter the prin plead for him. Much less would I be willing, (as cipal has the right to choose his agent, untrammelled thie gentlernel seerms now anxious to do,) to put such a and unrestricted biy law. Why then should we have provision inito the constitution. For I desire merely a provision for the protection of the legal profession to remark, in conclusion, that a constitution cannot be alone? What reasoii is there for preventing the free altered with the same facility as an act of the Legisla- dom of choice in thi respect, whilst you allow to all ture. Such a provision in the constitution might re- men the privilege of selecting their own agents in all suit in bre tkiug up our whoile system of judiciary. other cases, irrespective of the fact whether they And I realy see no reason why it should not. I doubt have passed an examination, orihold a written license very much,whether juistice could be administered at to qualify then for their service. all, were we to admit into the courts all sorts of men-'I'heje is a principle in this question; it is opposition such as could be found in our cities, and anionligst our to the conferment of a special privilege. river meti. I doubt very much, whether there are But it has been affirmined that this provision will many judges in the State who would even consent to affect the respectal)ility and dignity of the courts. sit upon the bench; or whether there are many respect- But it has been admitted that the practice of allowing able or responsible men of the legal profession, who individuals to go into court and appear there fortheimwould consent to practise law,in a court crowded with selves, has alwvays been tolerated. WNell, if that is the blackguardis. case, why is it that the pictiure so graphically The people, (if i mnay be permitted to express my drawn by the genitleiiiarl frolil Clark, has not been reopinionl,) will never tmank the gentleman for bringing alized? Why is it rot that Scenes of blackguardism these mien into the courts. The people desire to have and ribaldry have not heretofore overwhelmned the their business done in courts subject to rule. The pe- order and dignity of the courts? Why have not pie are not pleased with a licensed tongue, any tr ore. those characters gone into court and imade riot there, than they are will a bad character; and if lawyers now as he has described, if individuals nay come into are stigmatized as men of bad character, by the preju- court in their own case without restriction? Why dices of ien I wvould like to know how men of the have they not done it? I want to know the founldasame feelings would regard those cheracters,who might tionl for the apprehension that these same individuals be brought into the courts under the provision before are going to trust their business in more unworthy us. hands for the future, than they have done for the I hope the gentleman from Brown, will derive much past. benefit frori suggestions hlie has been receiving from the Sir, whien a mana appears with his business in court, gentleman from I-Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELIN.) But I lie has a stake there. HIe want; to assert his rights, would remind him that that gentleman is the open aid and I want to know if lie would be likely to employ avowed enemy of all the courts; and, of course, of all any unworthy, inefficient, or ribald iini to appear for rule and order in tihe courts. him there? No sir, he will look around him and seek Mr. PREE 1ELIl, (interposing ) I call the gentle- for the best infoiriied geitleminati-the lman who can to order. n make the point that he has asserted an in- best present his rights to the court and jury, and emnfamous lai hood, ploy him. Mr. MASON. That is a mere matter of opinion. I All we wnt is tlat there shaIll be no cx.clisiveness c~onsider th.e gen-~tleirani as a deadly einemy of all the,ilti consider tie au as a deadly eny of al te in this business, that it shall not be confined to a courts of ju,,stice in. the la-nd; and propositk,-'ms which courts of. in the lad; and propots whlic ensed few, but that every percson may l have the libhie h-as su-bmitted' to thiis, convention, prove him to be le has ubitte this convention, prove him to be erty of choosing such agents as hlie prefers, in every such-convict h of efforts to destroy the courts and departnent of business. the reputation cf Judges, from Chief Justice Marshall But it has been said that the courts ill lose their dowin. character for order and dignity- that they cannot pro Mr. REEiLMELIT. (Interposing.) I ask, again, if tect themselves under such a provision. But is it to the gentlei-naii is iii order. be supposed for an instant, that the court wvill tolerate The PRESID NT. The gentleman from Clark, is those co,itenpts described by the gelt,Ieran from proceeding by way of explanation. It is the hope ol Clark, (iMr.i AsoN.) Have they not the power to punthe Chair, that the gentleman will not give any cause ish contempt? Rali ny have They always ishconemps?Certainly they have. They always for personalities oi any thing unpleasant, in the way have exerised this poer, and ilitv muet contrive to of reply. The Chair is of opinion that the gentleman possess it. And upon the StipositiOn that i.ndividhas been quite too ~-ersonal. has heei quite Ho ersonal. nuals would appear and demean lheniselves as the gen Mr. MAeSO>S lr~occeded, in conclusion, to show that tlenian hias described, what would be the result? another effct if the amendment of the gentleman Whyin asumniaiy maimer,thedifnsty etu ights of from]Brown, would be to take away from the courts the the tribuial w ealil be isser~ed. old'sot the same power of pniushing for contempt —the power of pro-power iemain iffliS exclusiveness we-e iLhheld? serving the diCtulty und respectability of the courts, by Whenever a party appears by ati a fthr'Ly whomhe enfo~rcitig tiiOe o~ran~e of its authoritv with fines has choseii, we desire that he should have the priviandl rimprisri~,amentsb. and incpreoi~mitte had ncluded they would do ni iiege of being heard, by his authorized ageont. The colt ti < e I ad concluded they would do nj lThere is another topic to which gentlimen have almore twan it recommend to the body not to adopt this laded-the prejudice against the legal profession. And proviaion. That vas the extent of the action of the let me tell gentlemen that that prejiudice, as far as it committed ad ne hoped that the body would con- existsat all,bas been excited because of their opposition cur in the retom nendatioii. -to every proposition, the tendency of which would be OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, rEBRUARY 19. to put every man upon the same footing-because of authority of the court, has, in my opinion. not only their aversion to giving a fair field for competition in proved to be salutary; but, it has contributed much every profes,ion, cilliug, trade, or craft, whether it be in securing to your courts much of this dignity and the business of selling goods, making plows, or practis- respect, which thev niow so fully esijoy. ing law. So long as they shall remain the advocates We would do nothing that would have the least of special privileges, these prejudices will remain tendency to lessen the dignity and respect for the against them. court; for wiheii you lesson respect for your courts — Now there is the illustration of the gentleman from when they caunot maustain that independence and whet,n the-iiy w-cansneesylo th ciimaintinigo thatineednea. Brown. There was a case in which he might have appeared for himself, but he was turned aside when respect which is due +0 tlat part of your system of appearing as a guardian; and the common sense of ev. gov ern ment, orals will beco me lax, atd when mor ery man who witnessed or has heard of that tiaiisaction al entitisent is gone, this governuent of ours has will pass sentence against the professicn for this piece nouglt wlereon to stand And when your courts can of illiberality. They will hold that the lawyer's li- 11 longe r command respect yoil liberties will be onceuse is alieni to every just principle; and if it is the dangeied —or in otlici worts a popular respect for desire of the profession to overcome this prejudice, let the d'giiityof the courts shall be allowed to diminish them rest their claims to consideration and employ- in this country, in the saini pioporlion your lihertes ment upon the principle of free trade and equal rights will be found to be on the wane It is in that forum where the rights of property and the riglits of the in Mr. SMItTHi ot Wyanilot. Mr. President: This dicidual man are to be deteimused; atid therefore itis, amendment contemplates the abrogation of all exclu- tiv t a r e we dotoi ahd therLegielature Ii that -whatever else wce do, or which the Legislature sive privileges now enjoyed by the legal profession. may do, we should do nothiiig that would have a should not have said one word upon this question were tend ency to injure or violate a pai of our system in I not soon to vote unoti it, and for that reason I wish the estination of the psoplem an explanation to go with the vote. I am willing to If I ged in the pracice of the law, and go as far as gite geniletnan from Erie, (Mr. TAYLOR,) desied ake money, regardless with whom or the gentleman fiom Brown, (Mr. LOUDON,) to de I might be associated, I would sustain this proposistroy the "distitictions" and "exclusiveness" of which tion; nor wouldI I-i the least object, to a conscientious they so loudily complain, but I wish to attempt it ra- n an being allowed to practice if he desired it, and tionally-at the right time and in the right place. could get employed. But before you do this, you But let is i.nquire whence arises this distinction? Is should absolve your lawyers from the solemn obligait from a constitutional provision? Certainly at, tions they are undei to discharge their duty to their nothing but a legislative enactment; subject [like all client with fidelity, or have all others that proposed general law,s] to repeal at any time. Now if gentle- to practice, come under a similar obligation. There mao desire -,vh,,t they seek for by thi s amendment, let i iiothing now, nor will there be hereafter, to prevent them direct their efbitts to the appropriate body. We a man from attending to his own case. But the gencannot i,icorlio'ate into the new Constitution matters fleinan fiom Erie, (Mr. TAYLOR,) has come to the conbelonging so exclusively to the Legislature, without clusiot, that there is no danger of any blackguard or going far beyons our (Iuty, and for these reasons I pro anv one oming into court, except a lawyer-for no test against the adoptioii of this amendment. man is agoing to stultify himself. That I suppose is I will here sav to the gentleman from Brown that I in accoridance with his knowledge of human nature. am willing at any timre o'join with him in an applica- But let me tell the gentlei.nti, being much older than tion to the Legislature, fr a repeal of the statute which himself, and not unacquainted with human nature, makes the " distinctions " of which he complains, that as a general rule, he is right; no sane man will and thus n~ehe ev,,rv onie who wishes to practise law, trust an important case to a man not acquainted with depend uponi sl-l.s ca —I-aw knowledge and pro- th'e law-but there are othner, irresponsibO le, and who fessiotiil ski'l, for his preferineit. would delight in 1)bringig ridicule upon lie court and M.17r. JAF i3ECTTEP. I;{r. President: While I ad- all connected with it, as a matter of mere licentious mire the r~q~u~ I' o~:can.-:.m of mv frie,n from Brown, revenge, thait the elect/ion of the judges by the poe - (Mr. L-t thia th I admire our rea ile - ill an additional reason wihy you should aspublican iii.itt-: as moh an ay other mani an d say to keep the cbasiel of niiticL pure, for some men I feel as if ti s C()iiL,'Ition would act very unwisely will clalni to take greater liberties with a court of in adopth,g;heprovision ii(Iw under consideration. their own election, than with one which they had I am not a!~iwy;I am not, engaged in the practice no voice in creating. Ill disposed men might often of the p,ofe uti,;; b~t: I uesire to say a few words I bring in to ou'rt fit, subjects to do their dirty work. upon this propo0 tion. This is the resort of liumaii inature, vhen correct mor 2~rotw~ ith.,adg t h4 Lis question of exclusive n ess has als ane wanting, it is a law that has always existed been l u,gg o lo~. ter up this pioposition, permit and will. always exist until human nature shall be me here to s.ta that saw.yers have not been clothed changed. with thiis e s -iy request or desire on Alttiough this exclusiveness, is the wisdom of ages their part. t is exclnci iv right, of lawyers to prac- past, and still continued, it does seem to me, that those tire in tl~e co;_ir~;s of ju-e is as old as the law its,lf who seek to open the doors so wide just now, ought by Thili le -wal. s as:upp,.1 sd'o have been established in some argument, instead of the cry of exclusiveness, w/.sdo~n in ii~';:;cr to th~e cour~t and those whio cifer somre good reason for this change; and if they had husine"; ihe':cin, e services of men skilled in could show any valid reason for this change, the remthe law; andl 1(11 th.il puriooe they have always been edy has always been in the hands of the people. So requilcd to ci~ao ihe~,:iselves in bhe study of the law, far as the State of Ohio is concernedl, this exclusive aud to p 5ss th odeil of an examination; and in or- privilege to practise in our Court is a mere statutory der that tli.. coij'srt.1mgbt be approached and surrount- provision, and if it is so very obnoxious to the people, dead by a c~i (:fsiof men {,yet whom they could exercise it does seem to me that our Legislative halls would some deearee of a' roitrary authority, keeping thera have resounded withs their discoutent. The lawyers within teir pooper( provinco. The lawyer being a themselves never sought this p~ivilege, nor was it ever sworn o'i4e"r, ~etonies an officer of the court in one conferred upion them for their heinefit; it was done for sense of the term, which together with the controlling the benefit of thoste who should be so unfortunate as 673 01-1OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. to be compelled to have business in your Courts. Now, so far as dollars and cents are concerned, it is my can did opinion, that it would be a benefit if the door was thrown wide open, but it might in the end result in a disadvantage to the Courts, which by all means, and by eve ry int eres t th at shoul d actuate an upiight m an sh ould be sustained. I have made these rem ark s i, Mr. President, not so much for myself as for others, an,d hope to be pardon ed for the interest I have manpifested upo n this oceas ion,-for I am not to be here long, but there, are those who are to come after, in w hom I have a d eep and abiding intere st, and full well do I know that their in terests an d their rights are t o be affected in just propor tion, according to the degree of dignity and respect tha t shall be entertained of your courts of justice. Suppose sir, that I should be mistake n i thi s, and the principle of admitting every citizen to come into Court,,good, bad or indifferent," and be permitted to practis.e, inasmucrh us the legal profession, as such, rests exclusively upon s tatutory provisious, had not this experimental question better be tried in that body, w here, if it shou ld work well, it could, and would be continued, and if it shou l d prove otherwise, the reme dy could as easily be applied? But be that as it may, this proposition is entirely too broad, it should at least, be so tformed as to admit none, w ho htad not some char acter for honesty and morality at least. I will not pretend to say what I would do were I in the L egisla ture; but, if my immediate constituents desired it, I w ould vote for it and give. thern the b enefit of a trial; but I in th ink m that I am too well acquainted with human! nature to make it a constitutional provision-to throw open a door which would seem to invite an exhibition of disrespect and contempt for our Courts. Mr. RANNEY now renewed the demand for the previous question. On motion of Mr. MANON, The Convention adjourned. ONE HUNDRED AND RWENTIETH DAY. THURSDAY, Feb. 20. 1851 I 9 o'clock, A. M. i The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by Rev. Mr. PRESTLEY. Mr. HUNTER presented sundry petitions from O. W. Randall, Aaron Brown and forty-five others citizens of Ashtabula county,praying, that a clause be inserted in the new Constitution,prohibiting the Le.gislature from passing any law legalizing traffic in spirituous liquors. Referred to the select committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits. Mr. NOR. RIS presented a petition from H. V. Kerr and forty eight other citizens of Clermont county on the same subject, which on motion was laid on the table. Mr. SWAN presented a petition from Gustavus S. Green and five hundred and sixty-three others citizens of Franklin county on the same subject, which on motion was laid oi the table. Report number two of the standing committee on Education was read a second time by its title. An~d on motion of Mr. HI'ICI-GOCK of COeauga, committed to a committee of the whole Convention. Report number one of the committee on Corporations, other than Corporations for Banking wtas read a third time. Mr. RANNEY moved, that the Report be reeommitred to the comnmittee, that reported it, with instructlonls to strike out the words "by general laws" in the first line of section 5, and insert in lieu thereof the fol-4 lowing words: "is cases, where the pub ic good imperatively demxands it by the General Assembly." " Mr. SWAN demanded a division. The question then being on recommitting the Re port. Mr. REEMELIN said that it was well known that he had not originally supported the Report now made, although he hadi signed it wiih a view to have it re ported. Nor did le like it now, but he appealed to members, whether if after discussion a re,port had be come amended, so as to secure a majority, when all amendments had had a fair chance, whether motions to ; recommwit and to re-consider, were to be continually made arid re-made, we had not better rescind our ad jourumeut resolutions, and thus again get at sea, upon all subjects. Sir, (said Mr. R.,) I voted yesterday for engrossing the report now before us, not because I like it in all its parts, but because I regard the report as the final re. suit of various opinions, and as a compromise of some what of conflicting sentimrents, and such a cou;so shall govern me in all such matters, and in the fi nal vote on the constitution itself, even it should-and ' it no doubt will-contain many provisions which I dislike; and even if it should not contain matters which in my opinion should be in. Al though, therefore I do not like all in the report, still I amn strong in hopes, that its tendency will be to simpliry and rectify corporate po wer s, a nd t hat special privileges and special grants, at least, will no longer be grant ed, so that the principle of association may be stripped of its speciality and its exclusiveness. The right of association is a natural r ight, belonging to all, and all Gov ern ment has to do, is to furnish the means to carry that righ t into effect, with that care and regard for others' rights the same a s it does the ri ght to trade, to hold p roperty or any natural right, which is perfected en de o te lea and trendered enjoyable by legal and costi tution al ena ctment. And let me say here, that this principle of associa t ion, is the great he adway of our age. It is the idea by w hich labor w ill yet be redeemed fro m the tyranny of capital; it is tl-hie means bv which labor may yet be secured the result of its labor, without fe eding sole capital; i t is the principle by which expense of every kind may be saved, bu, y which Jeremy RBeptham's idea "of the l e ast wear and tare for t he greatest possible object," ma y yet be realize d. It i s the principle of socialism; the principle by which the French people expect yet to cut the tangled web, which capital has wove around labor; the principle upon which Fourier has expatiated, and which shall have a fair fight, and a fair field, if I can give it. By it, we have already, and shall hereafter get clear of much Government machinery. Yes, I foresee the time, when the whole Post-office Department will be surrendered to the principle of association, and compe tition being left free, it will work better than the sna chinery of government. Stri~ the principle of associa tion of the parasite that clings to it; I mean, the special corporate privileges, and the special exemptions. Let it be a general right again open to all, and I for one, am willing to bid it God speed, and to let it work out its own ends. And here it is, where I think my friend from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNFY,) has taken the wrong shute. I ask him why, if the right of way be granted to one, it should not be open to all? It may be wrong to grant it at all to private corporations. I think, myself, that granting the right of way to one set of citizens over thle property of another citizen, is a doubtful policy. The right to take for public use, does not mean for private use., and it is this prohibition of an originla~ll honest principle, that makes all the difficulty in this matter. Private property has been taken for private use, under pretenee of public use, and it is this peru t t 674 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. n 1 ural persons are not permitted to enjoy, Such legisiae tion,is manifestly repugnant to the principles of our e goveritnmeit-wholly incompatible with the spirit and s genius of our free institutions-atid totally subversive 1. of the equal rights of the people. t It is for these reasons, sir, that I am opposed to all e chartered incorporations. It is for these reasons, that l these vampires upoin the body politic, called corporau tions, are objects of my direst hostility. t Mr. REEMELIN. I am sorry that the gentlemani - from Guernsey, (ME. L.EECH,) understood me as - representing him opposed to the principle of asso- eciation. I am aware that that geittleman's position ia r that regard is as he has stated it. e Ir. SAWYER moved the previous question. I The question then being " Shall the main question - be now put?" it was disagreed to. , After debate, Mr. MANON moved the previous question. The question then being "Shall the main question . be now put?" Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays, which . were ordered, and resulted yeas 4S, nays 47 —as fol I)WS: YEAS-Andrews. Archbold, Barbee, Barnett of Preble. Ben t nett, Blickensderfer. Brown of Athens, Brown of Carrotl. Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewiog, Florence, Gillett, Gray, Greene ol Defiance, Hard; Harlan, Ha kins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hunter, Lidey, Mat.on, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Otis, Pattersot, Perkins, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Har rison, Smith,f Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stit well. Swift,'I'hompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler. Way, and Woodbury-48. s NAYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blair, Cur ry, Farr, Forbes, Graham, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hr amilton, Hendterson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphre ville, Hunt, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood. l,arsh, Law rence, Leech, Leadbetter, Loudon, Mitchell, Nash, Norris, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Scott of Au,laize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stickney, Stidger,Stru. ble, Swan, Thompson of Stark. Warren, Williams Wilson Worthington and President-47. So the demand for the previous question was suts, tained. The question then being on the passage of the Re' port. Mr. RANNEY demanided a division. aThe questiono then being on the passage of tile first section. Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas. and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 55, nays 40, as fol ows: Y I:As —Iessrs. Archbold, Blair. Calill, Chaney. Collings Coolt, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, H,lmes, Holt, flootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, King. Kirkwotd, Lawrence, Lidey, Loudon, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Saw yer, Scott of AAuglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, mStebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger. Struble, Swift, Thomp son of Stark. Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Woodbury and. President-55. tNAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry, Florence, Gil, lest, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hunter, Kennon, Larsb, Leadbetter, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Ranney, Scott of Harrison. Smith of Highland, Smnitti ( f Warren, stanbery, Swan, Thompson of Shelby, Williams and Worthington —40. So the first section was passed. The question then being on the passage of section two. Mr. GREEN of Ross, demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 63, nays 33, as follows: YEAs —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnett of Preble Blair Brown of Athens, Cahill, Chaney, Cotlings, Cook, EWart Ewing, Fart, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance. Gregg,Groes versiotn which has given rise to the provisions i the report. By it, that right of way cannot be surrendered hereafter by special grant, it must b, done by general law, and I cannot see why, if it i right to grant it at all, it should inot be granted to all VW hen the right of way is thus thrown open to all, i will be better guarded than by special grants. Th~ public generally will feel the sting of corporations an their special privileges, and my word for it, you bring home by a general law, the question of the righ of way, and I warrant you the people will guard it bet ter, than it has been done heretofore. Make those gen eral laws subject to alteration and repeal, and the peo pie will gradually strike down one special right after another, until the mere I rinciple of association, will be restored to its original fairness and equitv. This, ] have strong hopes, will be the result of general corpora tion laws; they will be open to all-aand more than that they will be subject to that healthy action of public opinion, that will trim down all its incongruities with our laws and the constitution. The principle of association, or even of incorporated association, cannot be put down-it is on the increase; it is spreading-gelleralize it, then; throw it open to all; bring it strongly, and fully, and fairly, within the control of public opil ionct, by r ep eal and al teration, and I have no fears, but w hat the people will soon rectify those general laws, and the associations, and corporations und er them, and bring them to the level of all citizens. I c annot un derstand m y f ri e nd from Trunmbull, (Mr. RANNEtY,) il hois co urse t o-day. He tells us he wants the General Assembly to grant the right of way by special act, and not generally. What! is he willing to have the Genf ratl A ssembly the arbiter, which is t o deny to one a right, and grant it to another? Away with such reasoning. If the right of way should be granted to one, it should be granted to all on the samne condition. We want general rights; no special rights. We, in Hamilton, do not want to have to beg as a fa. vor, what has been previously granted to Trnmbull. In coniclusion, general laws will be bitter drafted, better watched, anid better passed, tl-han special laws, and if any errors shalt occur, the people will rectify the general error. If corporate and associate rights are right at all, throw them open to labor, as well as to capital; to the poor, as well as the rich —and if it prove wrong, deny it altogether. The General Assembly should not discriminate; its acts should be like the dews of heaven, capable of being enjoyed by all. That body should no lonjger occupy the attitude of being a dispenser of unequal laws, of special privileges and immunities. It hlas done so too much in the past, it should not do so in future. Mr. LEECH said: Mr. President, In justice to myself, I feel called upon to notice a remark made bv my friend from Hamilton, (Mr. RE-7MELIN). I understo(od that genitiltean to intimate that I am opposed to the principle of association. He is entirely mistaken, if lie so interprets my views. I am not opposed to the principle of association, nor is my worthy friend from Kiiox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) or any of those gentlemen, I believe, who act with me on this floor in op position to corporations. On the contrary, I recognize it as the right of individuals to associate. and to combine their meeans, in order to effect any proper, or just, or useful, or laudable purpose; so that, by so do. inlg, they do not interfere withl,or usurp the rights of others. But, sir, I will tell you ~what. I am opposed to. am opposed to governtnsnt's interfering, and by legislative enactments, clothing associationis with corporate powers —constituting them artificial persons, and conferring upon them special or exclusive privileges and i mmnunities —privileges and immu aities which nat 44 I I y B 675 OHIO CONVENTION D)EBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. beck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga. yer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Anglaize, Sellers, Smith of yer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smitii of Warren, Stanbery, Stantoii, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Thompson of Stark, Way, Worthington and President-61. So the Convention refqised to pass section 5. The question then being on the passage of sectioIi 6, Mr. GREEN of Ross, demanded the yeas and nays, which W*ere ordered, and resulted-yeas 70, navs 25, as follows: BAYS-Messrs, Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet ofMontgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Brown of Athens Cahill. Chambers. Chaney, Cook, I orsey. IEwart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan, Hawliins. Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga,Holmes, Holt, Hlootman, Hunt,Jones, Kenncn, Kling, Kirklwood, Lawrence, Lidey, Loudon, Norris, McCornmick, Norris, Orton Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of War. reni, Imith of Vyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble. Swan Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren Way, WilliamsW l, Wilson d, W oodb ury and Preside,!t-7 Sl. NA,ys-Mess.rs. BJennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Collings, Curry, Florence, Graham, Green of Koss, Hamil. ton, Humphreville, Hunter, Larsh, Leech, Leadbettel, Manon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, McCloud, Nash, Peck, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stanbery and Worthington-25. So section 6 was passed. On motion of Mr. WILLIAMS, the Convention took a recess. beck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, 1tohlines, Holt, Hootman, Hunit, Jones, Kennon, Kin-, Kirk woodI,Lawrence, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell,M,-Cormick, Norrns, Orton. Otis, Patterson, Perklins. Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer. Scot of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson,Woodbury and Pres ident_._ NAs —Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, den nett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry, Do rsey, Florence, Gillett, Graham,Green of Ross, Hamilton, Har t an, Humphreville, Larsh, Leadbetter, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud Nash, Peck, Icott of Harrison, SCmith of Highland, Smith of Warren. Stanbery, Staner aton. St ilwell, Williams and Worthington-f33. So th e second section was passed. The question then bei ng on the passag e of sec tion three, Mr. OTIS demanded the yeas and navs, which were ordered, an d re sulted-yeas 57, nays 40, as follows: ~EA-,sMessrs. Archbold, Blair, Cabill. Chaney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Parr, Forbes. Grenelie o' Dfia,ce, Groesbeck, -Hard, Hawkinls, Henderson, Homs,olme s, H uolt, Hootma, Hum-. phreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jone, Jes Kennon, ing, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitch ell, MreC,ormick, Nor is, Orton, Patterson l, Quigley Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickniey, Sti, ger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of reelby. Thompson of Stark, Vance of cutler, Warren, Way, Wilson a nd ires id e nt-57. NAYs -Messrs ArCdrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, B~tes. Bennett, Blickensdrerfer, Brown o Ath en s, Brow ll of Carroll, Cumambers, yollings, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Gillet, Graham, G.-ay. Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan BtHeto e, Hitchcock of Geauga, Larsh. Mahon, Mason, Morehead, M orris Mco, Mcrloud Nash, Otis. Peck, Perlins, ncott of Har rison, Smith of Highlanid, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Williams, Vorthington and Woodbury -40. So th e th ird se ction was passed. The que. otion then being on the passa,e of section 4, Mr. GREEN of Ross, demanded the yeas and nays, which wer e ordered, a nd resulted-yeas 59, nays 3(;, ,avs follows: Yo As —Messr s. Blai r, C ah ill, Chaney, Ck, Coo, Dorsey, Ew ing, Farr, Forbes. Gray, Greene of Defiance. Gregg, G!oes beck, Hard, Henderson, Hnlmes, Holt, Hootman, liumphre ville, Hunt, Hunter, oies, King, Kirkw ood, Lawrence lieech, Leadb etter, Lidey, Loudon, lanon, Mitchell, Mct or, in5ick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, RanneyReemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stic — gert, Struble. Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thorpson of Stark, Vance of Butler W'arren, Way, Williams, Woodbury and President —59. NAYS-Me ssr s. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee,Barner of Montgomery, BRarnett o f Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Coilings. CurFry, Ewart, Floren ce, Green of Ross, Hami lton, H arlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Ke nnon, Larsih, Mason, MLorehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash. Otis, PecJ, Smith of Highland. Smith of Warren, Staibery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan and Worthington -6. So section four was passed. The question then being on the passage of section 5, Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays. which were ordered and resulted-yeas 32, nays 61, as follows: YE.Fs —lessrs. Andrews. Archbold, Cook, Ewart, Farr, Gillett,Groesbecki, Haw kinq, Hendlerson, Holmes,Hunt, Hard, Kennson, Kirk wood, Marion, Mason,:~ erris, Patterson, Peck, Perkilns, Reemrelin, Smith of \1yandot, gStickney, Struble, S~wift. T'aylor, 1'hompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Warren. Wi~lians, Wilson and Woodlbury —32. q.~Ys-Messrs. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensdlerfer. Browvn of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahi11, Chambers, C:han~ey, C~oilings, CJurry, Ewing, Florence, Fporbes, G~reene of I~efi~ance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Harlan, Hitch~cock of Geauga, }lolt, Hootman, Humphrevi lle, Hunter, Jonies, King, Larsh, Lawren1ce, Leech, Leadbetter, Lldley, Loudon, ~Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloudl, Mc Germirks lNash, Orton, Otis, Q.uigley/, Ranney, Riddle, Saw AFTERNOON SESSION. 2y2 O'CeYr,r, P. M. The President decided that the report of the com mittee on corporations, other than corporations for banking, having been passed by a distinct vote upon each section, was now no longer before the Convention, but finally passed, and that no further vote was necessary in ord,er to the final passage, and reference to the committee on revision, enrolment and arranigement. Mr. ARCHBOLD moved to reconsider the vote of the forenoon, I)y which the report of the committee on corporations other than corporat ions f or banking was finally passed, a nd referred to said conmimittee, Mr. FARR demanded the yeas and nnays upon this motion, and the same being ordered and taken resulted, yeas 32, nays 53, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barne t of Montgonery.,Barnett of Prehle, Bates,Blickee itsderfer, Brown of Carrol, Chambors, Cook,'Fwart, Florence, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Manion, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Naslh, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Williams anid Worthingtoni.-312. NAYS.-Messrs. Blair, Brown of Athens,Cahiill, Chaney, CQ11ings, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootmal, Humphrevillle, Hunter, Hunit, Jones, King. Kirkwood, Lawrence, Leechl, Leadbetter, London, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyanidot, Stebbins, Slanbery, Stickiney, Stidger, Struble, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President.-53. So the motion to reconsider was disagreed to. Mr. SAWYER submitted the following: Resolved, Thatt a committee of four members be appointed by the President, whose dutv it shall be to diaft an address to the people of Ohio on the subject of adopting the new Constitution. Mr. SAWYER, while he did not expect, or desire to be placed upon this committee, he hoped the Convention would unite in an address to the people upon 676 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. the whole subject of the new Constitution. Such shorter. It is true sir, from som cause, the gentle had been the exam,ple of other States and tie hoped the man from liamilton, the chairmin of th)e c)ijnittee, sane thing would be done here. is generally, very fully and ably reported, and in my Mr. MANON said he had no faith il these high opilnion he has -,ccupied morepages inthi book, thatn sounding pretensions, which were getting to be far too allvy other meinber of the convyelitioni, containing nmainy commonoi in this body. He would like lo see sonme good things and neluch valuable mnatter; but under o prospect of getting through, before passing upon such rule, does it appear that his argumients have been a proposition as this. razeed. I do not institute this resolution bv way of Mr. MIANON moved that the resolut:on be laid on complaint in regard to the manner in which the re the tabl,, which was agreed to. ports have been made; nevertheless, I ai firee to ad Mr. LARSH submitted the following: mlit that they have not been as fully reported since we Reso'ved,'hat an election shall be held on the 4th lay of have been in this Hall, as I could have desired. I July next which shall be opened, conduc;ted and certified in could refer you to the debate which took place upon the same minner, as e lections for Governlor are now required the doctrine of libel; thle argument and opinions inll to be; at which election the iualified electors of the State shall be called upon to vote for or against the adoption of the that discussion expressed, were valuable. But I per foregoing con stitution. ceive that, the arguments of some of the speakers up Resolved, Treat should a majority of the electors of the on that question, wvere not only cut down, but cut out State, voting at said election. vote against the adoption of of the report entirely. Now sir, our opinions, and this Constitution, that fact shall immediately be certified to epos utie s or oh pions, and the Governor by the Secretary of State, who shall thereupon the opnon of e ass of the people are formed issue his proclamation tothe electors of the State, requring and they come to the conclusion of the propriety or them to vote at the election to be held on th e secon d Tuesday improprietv of principles by discussion and exanin of October next, for or against the adoption of Article -, in the discussns ad op ns of others, a great (the Judi-iary Article,) ol t,is Constitution, to be incrp the dscussons ad opinions of ors, i a great rated as an amengmentto the existing C onstitution degree. Resolved, That should a majority of the electors of the The obiect of the General Assembly in furnishing State, voting on saidl luestion at said Octob)er tlection, vote us with a reporter, was, that the opinions of the mneln in favor of said amendment t hat fact shall be certified to the hers of this convention, by which gret and imporl,ait to the General Assembly at its next session and thereupo n said Artic!e- shall be a part of the Constitution of the State, principles should be settled, should be miade public, and all provisions contrary thereto shall be rescinded; and' and to furnish ile people withthe arguments by which the General Assembly shall take immediate measures to con- those principle- were decided by ourr votes. And I form existing laws thereto, and carry the same into effect. regret to say, that in my opinion, their object has not On niotion of Mr. LARSH the resolution was laid been fully carried out, especially since we have been on the table. iin this Hall, if it had been, I think that our debates Mr. LEADBEUTTER sunbmitted the following: would have elicited more interest. In many instan "Reso.Tved, That the Reporter to this Convention adopt ces it will be difficult to determine just exactly what suitable means to have reported in full the proceedings and the member was driving at, [true that mnay be the debates of this Convention, until its termtnation.'' fault of the speaker,] in other cases you will find lan Mr. LEADBETTER. I have but a word or two to guage almost without an idea, and again, an idea, a say upon the adoption of this resolution. In looking good one, cut off midway in deliverv. over the proceedings and debates of this conventiol, So far as I am concerned, I beg leave to state, that, you will find that some of its members, much more as for myself, I care but little about it; but there are able than myself, in some instances, are not only those here whose character and standi entitle therm to great weig,ht, and have a commanding influence la reported as having said but very little in arguments to great weight, and have a conanding inlence i oi some length, but are reported as having said somne the State, whose opinions delivered in argulent, very silly things, aid some things that they did not desire to see taken down in extenso. This I desire to say; and im others that some good argumlents have not see done if we are to have any reporting at all. The ,a;adiotestasoegoariiietI-lv i' o.' a~ftecara ftecoiiite tie ea been reported at all, or barely noticed, acd now sir, idea of the chairman of the committee strikes me as as we are about to draw this convention to a close, and peculiarly singular, that these re(ports are to be cult off some of the most important questions vet to be de- still shorter now, when, more thaii at any other period cided, and then having the whole to pass upon I for of our session. they will become the most imprtant; one desire that the opinions of members, s hall. from the opinions of members are better matured, and will and after this date, be fully reported-so, that who- be more briefly expressed. The item of expense is soevershall hlave occasion to inquire into the opinion called into requisition as an aid to this mandate, or of any member of this body, which has beeis the advice, to cut shorter a-d shorter still. It isnow too subject, matter of discussion, can do so, by refer- late to coitinenrce economizingat this poiit,:-fte:'elect. r:ln to his arguments, for if any part of yolur book is ismg an assistant door-keeper. If it is to be understood ever read, it will be the commencemoenrt and conelti- that this assistant door keeper was necessary to keep sion. These questions have to be decided amid a ihis body in order, and the duty is discharged, I shall conflict of opinions, and as our proceedings are going not regret the expense; not imputing howev er, alny out to the world, I for one desire to see a full expres- vc'ry disorderly conduct, other than much loud talk sion of those opinions upon paper, at least in a mtan- ii,g occasionally. As I have already remarked, that ner so intelligible that we shall be able to recognize I amn not particular about the reference of thlisresoluthem. tion, if thle conmmittee shall feel themselves instructed Mr. LAWRENCE moved to refer the resolution to to report at an early day. the select committee on reporting. Mr. REEMELIN. It is perhaps proper that I Mr. LEADBETTER. I do not know that I have should state that the committee on reporting, has had any particular objection to the reference of this reso- this matter under consideration for some time, but had lution; not knowing however, who are the members not thought proper to report it: the case because of the composing this t'osnmittee on reporting - absence of the reporter, in consequenlce of sicknes~ ia The PRESIDENT. The gentleman from Hamil his family. ton, [Mr. RaaMELMN.] is chairman. It was known to every member that it was at all Mr. LEADBlETTERP. Very well sir, then I must itimes difficult to hear a speaker in this Hall, and that conclude that. the honlorable chairman has talcea upon of course it must be difficult reporting. And besides, himnself, an undue amount of responsibility, ini advis- ii view of the expense iivolved in making out extending the reporter, lately, to cut down the debates, still ed reports, several members had expressed a wish to (,77 678 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. the reporter that the debutes should be still further condetised. But now, accordilig to tile proposition of the gent!e'i-.n fromrn Ho!rms, (Mr. LEnDBETTER,) there might be spread out some 16 columns of our proceedings every day of the session, at a cost of perhaps, forty dollars per day. In view of this expense, it had been proposed in the committee, anid privately in couiversation with others, to discharge the reporter entirely,and require merely a copy ol the journal to be sent up te o the printer. In consequene.e of this conversation the reporter had now concluded to condense the reports to about three columns a day; and to get along at a cost of something like eight or nine dollars a day, besides the per diem of the reporter. I acknowledge that I desire as much as ally member of the body to have all, myself included, fully reported. But, since all the principal questions before the Convention have been discussed, I amn disposed to think that there is a propriety in coidensiiig thie reportsas mucl h as possible, anid I have so advised the reporter. In thus advising him, I acted only as one member, and believilg that such was the guneral wish of members. Mr. GREEN of Ross. I think sir. that we ate interfering with a matter over which we have Do jurisdiction. The legislature, in pursuance of the law providing for this Conivention, went ol to elect a reporter whose duties they had prescribed, siniply requiring him to ta,ke such steps, under the supervision of the Convention, as mnightit enable them to embody their sen - timents in, book of reports, anid to provide for his compensation. Tie conventioii, to be sure, had affirrnmed the election of a reporter by the legislature, which was nothing more than recognizing Mr. Smith as the authorized reporter of the body. But unless gentlemen could appeal to the law of last winiter defininig the duties of this officer, I cannot see what they can do witti the subject. If it is it) the power of the convention to override the law and pirescribe the duties of this officer tienti it might be w'll enough to refer this resolution to a committee. But geitlenen sliould remember that the officthee of reporter is not of the creation of this body, an)d hence it was plaitn we could exercise no jurisdiction over his work. Mr. ARCHBOLD. I concur with the gentleman from Holmes, in the expression of regret that the debates on the libel article w ere not more fully reported. But it sho ild be recolltcted that this instance of ineglect occiirred wheal the Reporter wN as not in his plaicebein'g absent. (aon e, at the titoe (tn account of the dangerous ilies of hit,- family. i 3tut I observe that our worthy friend, (MIr. S.NITiff) is again in his place, and I apprehen d that such al tlinig will iot be likely to occur again. Mr. tIRKI'WOOD. I ieem it bht justice to the tIR e porter to at':e, t "ti, u itl;llt )rete'tldiig to control his action at alext S r- a1 conceriis inyself, I toorki the liberty if tgge. i It in Sols e time ago, that hlie mingt in; an y iii 7,: k Allt as bielf as he could. All I requiredl ws thi,.ac of il what I saidl It is true that solei'ii d v(:eie have e,cape(l in a few cases w ith m-yself; i11 eroll Cie iiig the drflicilty of heariut in this ll,ili aind the noise and 0counfseaion which is freqnentlv Sotire or it is astonishirng to ni, that the epolt Is are o c. rrerct lv taken. BIL. SMI1'TH of Wyando:A, movedi to amend the resow lition by striking out all after the word "resolved," aind inserting ill lieu th ereof, t hat the f olow i n: " That the' Reporlter cease too report the speeches of members from arid after this day."j Mr. SMITH of Wyandot I have introduced this anteudment to the resolution of the gentleman from Holmes, for the purioses designated in its language, that is to cut off the reporting- of members' speeches at the expense of the State, but the genitlemnan from Ross, (}Air. GnRFN,) doubts the propriety and power of this Convention to carry into effect the design of this amendmnent, because it contravenes a part of the law calling this Convenrtion,-by which a Reporter was appointed. But, it strikes nme that the article prioviding for future amendme nt s in the present Colstituition of Ohio, merely gives to the Legislature the power of providing by law, meanis for calling a Convention; when it had fully exercised that power, its duti es so f ar as related to the Covetio w ere discharged. But the Legislature stopped not where its duty etlded, but in its wis dom selechted for us a Reporter, and dictated o t he r ntea ns to legally icmortalize the mnemrbers of this body. If I amn correct in My views upon this subject, there is nothing in! the presenit Constitution making it more,bligatory oni the Legislature to provide this body with a Reporter, than with a Sergeant-at-Arms, Door Keeper, &c.; the lpower is inherent in this body to provide for these appendages, and that whenever this body deems it for its convenience or the interest of the Sitate, it can lop them off entirely. I sincerely regret. Mr. President, that this belly ask quieeed in the act of the General Assemibly, so far as regards reporting the debates-had it not been bo that members could "book themselves, define their posi tion," &c., on record at the expex,se of the State, 1 am of the opinion that our labors would have come to a happy close long ago. 1 have but little or no interest in the book of de bates of this body,-but such is not the case with many ambitious gentlemen around me. They look to it as the record of their towering talent, that will be handed down to posterity-bnut I fear that, with many of them, that, book will hand them-i down so low with their party during their lives, that they will be considered unfit for political resurrection. I have said more than I intended. I hope this amendment may prevail, and if members hereafter desire their speeches reported, let them payr for it, and not ride to glory without paying fare. Mr. LAWR, EN CE moved that the resolution and pending amendment be. referred to the committee ozn Reportin'g. On molation of Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, the resolution and pending amendment were laid on the table. On motion of Mr. MANON, the Convention took up the Report of the standing committee on the Judi cial Depar-tnierit. The question pend;ng being, "shall the main ques tion be now puts" Mr. BATE,S, on lea.ve, withdrew his denmand for t lle previous question. The question then being on agreeing to the:first arniei(lndmenit proposed by the comnmittee, to-wit: "Strike out of section one the following words, "and the proceedings of all courtl sin tilis State sh)all be pub lic at all times, aind any person hav,ing any case pends ing or business to transact therein, ma,y either appear for hiimself or herself, or be represented by such citi zenl, as counsel, a~s such person mlay choose, any law or usage to the contrary notwithstandingr." Mrt. 3~IANON mo~ved to amlendl the amenldmenit by striking ouit all after the wolrds,'at suchl timnes and; and inse rting in lieu thereof, the following: "E~very per~sonl of good motral characters shall be entitled to adimission- to practice law in all courts of justice, any law and ulsage to the contram3y notwith ~tanding."J Mr. HITCHCO)CK of Geauga. It wtill be recollected that this amendment of the comnmittee of the whole, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDk,Y, FEBRTUARY 20. suits. We do not require a mechanic to take an oath. or to procure a permit or licence to enter — upon his trade. Then why require thes e thi ngs of t he lawyer? Simply, air, because the profession of the law i s in th e h nat ure of an of fice, or trust. The lawyer occupies a position of trust, confidence and i mmunity. The buu o o lit s itth v u sieness of is client connects itsf wit h th busiess of other men who are not his clients-but faithfully to discharge his duties to his clientt, t!a m lawyer has certait ver y necessary and wholesome pri vileges, which must be carefually guarded. He has ap,oisg other things, a privilege oOr speech-in wlac h othe r t n,t n o are deeply concerwned-and from the abuse of which the y must be prote cted by wholesome guards. It is the license-tlhe special authority to practice his professipi do-which is t he ver y g uard and restraint upon the abuse of a lawyer's privileges and imntnpitiies. He holds that licence by the tenu re o f good beh aviour. The moment he violates his oath —or is guilty of fraud -or unprofessional conduct-he is liable to be removed from the bar. His license may be t aken from him, and with the loss of that he loses his professi on. Do you think, Mr. President, does any one t hink, that it would be a wise or wholesome th ing, to remnove this guard-sthis b od for good be,havior-and enallow ally one to practice this profession, witho ut an y restr a int? For one Ido not. I wish I could say tha t these salutary regulations had m ade the bar a ll th at it should be.t I admit that they have not kept the profession fre e fr om the unworthy —but that their tendesncy ist to elevate the bar, is undeniable. Mr. LOUIDON. I was not aware that by subrntlitting this proposition I wasaboutsto raise such a bu zz in thlisbody, or perhaps my natural timiii(dity would not have allowed me to present it, atall. ButI desire to assure gentlemen of the bar that it was not prsented out of any disrespect to their profession; foir, taking them together, I have the highest regard for lawyers. But sir, this provision was presented, in the discharge of what I esteem, a solemn duty which I owe to the people of Ohio. It was a sense of duty, alone, which induced me to offer it. Some gentlemen of the bar sa, that they approve of the principle, bust because it I snot found ill the right place, they cannot support it. But I hold sir, that when any'matter is right in itself, it never can be out of place. But this provision is herein the first. section of the article for the organization of our courtat_ of justice; and as I nlmtst be permitted to say, ill the very place where it ought to be. One gentleman of the bar, (Mr. G(RE-E{,) for whom I have the highest regard, would seem to have no objection to the amendment, if it would not expose hima to the danger, in Judge, Collings' district, of having to litigate with those negroes up there, wliho are known and distinguished as members of the Red Oalk Semi narv. Mr. GREEN of Ross, (interposing,) said. If the genitleman's proposition.were to succeed, I could only hope that some graduate of the Red Oak Seminary, flight be a party litigant on one side, and thie gentley mail from Brown on the other, and that no lawyer would appear for either. Mr. LOUDON. But now it is plain that a nlegro iwould have nlo authority, such as the gentleman sup po.es and fears, because a negro is not a citizen ac,cording to the Conlstitultionl. Mr. GREEN. I did not say that a negro was a cit — .izen.s The gentlemnan from Tramnbull, (Mr. RANNm',) gasve Chanlcellor Ktent's dlefinlition- of a citizen. I spoke Iof nezroes only in a political sense. IlrS.'LOUDCON. I do niot; care'what authority it ;Imay suit the gentleman from Tralmbull to bring in here, I affirm only what the Constitution says. was reported against by the standing committee, from the consideration that it was adopted in haste, and that it would be best to give the Convention an oppportunity to act upon it again. Of course if a majority eof the Convention were willing to iet the provision r,tnain in nthe bill, the committee would not object further; although they might believe that in practice it would be found inconvenient and unjust. MIr. STANBERY. I would not have a word to say upon this proposition, if it had not passed the coImenittee of the whole. I can hardly persuade myself that the vote so given, was given seriously, or with any fixed purpose to put this strange provision in the coInstitutiola. It m ay b e, sir, that some gentlemen really thitk it to be a good thinlg —a salutary rule. I hope that a littleconsideratioi will sh ow th em thabt it i s any thing bu t g o od, or saluta ry-th a t it is in truth very unwise and absolutely pertnicious. The gel,,Iernan from Brown, [Mr. LouDoN,] tells us, thathe wis hes to abolish the privilbge and monopoly of the legal professi on. Hioe would have the practice of the law, lik e ev ery o ther b usi ness or pro fession open tG all-dc,ear of all restraint-free to unlicensed comlipeti. qion. All that souttd s ver y w ell in the abstract, but practically it neans nothing. The practice of the law requlires study a nd preparation-and it is no more open to actual cotipetition that any other profession or trade. W hat if you do open the bar to all comers. Does any onie suppose that men wi ll seriously en ter upon this profession w ithout the necessary preparation? The gentleman fromii BrownI, [Mr. LouDov,] to showv ho%,, v aluabl e this provision would be, told us that if he had a case fo r trial, he might wish to avail himself of the i-erwices of his friend near himn, who happens not to be a lawyer. T hat w ould certainly be a very desirable privileg,- No o w let me ask that g entleman, if h aving a horse to shoe, he would trust the job to a man who iad nlever struck hIammer uponll an vil? If le h ad a coat to make, would lie put his cloth in any other hands than those of a regular tailor? If he had a steamboat, would lie put a raw h and at the wheel-or at the engiie~l Does not the gentleman see that every business or calling which requires particular skill, is necessarily confited to the few who by practice, and the necessary ,preparation, have acquired that skill? Then experts Slave in fact a mnoncpoly of their peculiar trade or pro Cession-cund that sort of monopoly must always exist. It is precisely tso wi th the legal profession-and with tho se who re educated gan d trained for the bar. I'he trial of -,eases, requires consummate skill —a clear and practical judgmenolt. It is so delicate a matter that it is an old and very true saying, that a lawyer who manages his own ease,, has a fool for a client. It is-therefore a rmere delusion to suIppose that this provision will in fact throw open the bar to any desi- I rable competition. It will never have that effeet. No sensible man wil l ever a ail himself of this imaginary priuilege-but any one can see that it may lead to out srage and abuse. I have, said that whatever of monopoly or exclusive ness exists at the bar, exists by necessity-and exists as well in other trades and professions. Bu~t hlere sirs we are mnet with a particular objection tov thle statutrory provisions requlirinag a license as an authoefiy to pr~lctie th~e law. Why require a license bless, and not for other professions which demand skill? ,Sir, 0acres is a vrery good reason for that. No man is admitted to the bar without previous study and with o)ut'an examlinsation. He must besides shlow a good chlaracte~r —and take an oath faithfully to discharge the dutiesof the profession. Th,.n the license is granted. But fir, what is the reason for all this? We do not eqUire th~ese prfehmiaaries and guards as to other put s t 8 t It I I 679 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. Mr. President, if this amendment would result in bringing disgrace either upon our courts of justice, or upon the members of the bar, I would back out from it. But I have no idea that it would affect the courts in the least degree, nor do f believe it would interfere with the lawyers. It would leave all these just as they are now. For then, as now, any man having a cause in court would cast about him, and see wh(; could attend to his business in the best manner, and employ such a imian, if he cout(l. But, by the present rules of the courats, the privi — lege s conferred upon tile bar, operate so as to deprive us laymen of a portion of our natural rights. I need only to appeal to ingenuous lawyers, whether such is not the operation of.their rules. I will not go into details of facts here, my ten minutes trnime will not permit me to do so. But there is another advantage of whiich the law vyers avail themselves under these rules. They are not allowed to be secutrity for other men. But a lawyer is never slow to ask his neighbor to be security for' him. I have time now to recur to but one further advani tage which theseexclusiverules give to the lawyers. I affirm, t hat, under thee rules our lawyers hold t what is equivalent to a mortgage upon ever y man's proper ty in the State of Ohio, whi ch yie lds them abou t t wo, and a half p e r cent. every quarterof a century. Can any m a n denv that? Mr. SAWYER. (In his seat,) tell uts about that mor tgage. A vocF. "Yes, wewanttoforelosethat." Mr. LOUDON. Well l'llexplain. By therules of court you compel the heirs of every deceased person to.go into court and apply for a partitionA of his real estate. And for this business you compel them to ern ploy a lawyer; but they have no right to ask the law yer how much he will charge. The court fixes iLs; fees, and it is usually fixed at two and a half per cent upon the property divided. N%o'w every mnan knows what amount of trouble the lawver has to take upoIn himself, in filing his bill in court,fortbe purpo>se of par titioning the land or dividing the money. Every man knows that the amount of this labor is very inconsid erable, vet I have seen a lawyer for this serviec, pocket; two hundred dollars at one operation. Here tlhe PREISIDEN'r interposed, to iiiform. the gent tleman that his twenty minutes had expired. Mr. HOLT. I voted for this proposition, although I do not like it as it is. Still, I wish to vote for a pro vision that any man may employ another to appear.for him, if le sustains a good moral clharacter, and has the qualificationsof an elector. I do not think this regulation would have any other than a salutary itillu ence upon the bar, if it would have any influence at all. I think the people would still continue to under stand their interests well enough to employ only such lawyers as would be able to carry their business, through',he courts with safety and success. But now every lawyer who has a,'sheep-skinn' in his pocket is supposed to be a proper officer to go in to court and do business. The people already know how to ma,,ke their selections from among these; and is it to be supposed that they will not retain their .judgment and discretion, if this matter of the business of practising law were thrown into the hands or every bodly? I go for no special privileges. We have amongst us what are called the learned professions-the professions of theology, physic, and law. The timne tias been when a mall could not employ hit: own chosen preacher, but must trust the interests of his soul to the advice of somle authorized minister. Such wa~s the casa in the country where I was born. But we have got But in the estimation of another gentleman of the bar, (Mr. MAso.,) I suppose I must haave rendered myself supremely ridiculous in this business, judging from his rera;ks on yesterday. And since there is " a chiel amanug us takin' notes, Anl Ifaith he'll print'em." I suppose the remarks of the gentleman from Clark on yesterd(ay afternoon, have been carefully taken down, and will be spread out all over the countrv; and since tlihose r(emarls were oirected to me princi pally, and intenided as a baneful potion, I am disposed to send out th e antidote alo alv with them. I wa nt it to be understood, that the picture which the gentle mnan dr ew of a comndition of things which would ad icit blackgtrards and strumpets e to come into court, wa s taken from a desir e on his part, simply to avoid tile force of a principl e wh ich might bring dowwn the moaeit aied the bar of the State, to a level with the free citizens of Olio. Mr. MASON, (interposing.) To a level with those persons to whomn I referred. I said distinctly, that I would be wilting to meet the g entle man from Brown on any other k'entlenan. Mir. LO UDON. Aye sir, but the gentleman is an "anc ien t cohhgress,mad," a man who has graced the b e n;ch of Othisoo in times gone by; a map who ha s a reputation as broad as the State it s elf. Is it not then blost singular, that sruche a man should allow h ims,elf to g et up here and draw a pictur e in which hlie would make it appear, that the court and bar of th e State, in point of di rnity an d respect ability, are entirel above and beyondt l he people. For that is the onlt isference which can b e drawn from his rearks ie is not willing to come dow n to a level with the people who gave him a ll th e power that he has, and who sustaip him in its enjoyment; and t o cover up this feeling, he obiects to being brought down to a level with blackguards and strumpets; but all the tirn e he me ans the honest yeom anry of th e c ountry. And has it come to this, theat the har d handed working men of the country, atad the honest and bereaved widows, who are compelled to comIe into court, it may be in defence of their ti tle to the homestead of their fatlyers, should be thuls insidi ously denounced as blackguards and strumpets, initruding themsel;es upon the. presence, and afF,ctin the dignity of the court and the bar of tahe State of Ohio. The gtentleman fromin Clark, descended to s ome p erson nsalites, to which I will not reply; for I wish to advocate p ths ris piotision only upon that principle of equality and riaogt y t which b elongs to every citizen of t he State-a pri ncip le whicah should head every page of th e C onstitution; and that pr inciple would guaaratitee to every man, having busine ss in the courts., the righ t to appear there, e ither in his own prop er person or bv any other person whom he might select for his agent. But it was attempted by the gentleman from Clark, to make it appear that I was acting in this matter as the cat's paw of the gentleman from iariilton, (Mr. Ri:E-ELN;) that he was the real instigator and that I was made a miere cat's paw to introduce thts pr-opoF-L:i,,tn for the degradation of the court and the bar. !:,-, Mr Presideit, I father that thing nyself, I am reI~l;,nsible for the whole cof it, I warote it, and I have int,',,dluced it, because I think it is right; and I say farthen that it is my opinion that you can insert nothing in this constitultion, which will he more popular amongst tihe people thlan that, to tbe sure it mnay lee requisite to change its phraseology, but not the spirit of it. Gentlemfen need not get out of patience or lose their self contro~l in the matter, for I can tell theml that. they must put this into the constitution,or they cannot hav~e anythinlg inserted there for the' government of their courts. It must go right inl there and stick fast. (Laughter.);i 680 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THUR$SDAY, FEBRUARY 20. n, Mr. SMITH of Warren. I would remark for the - satisfaction of the gentleman from Muskingum, (Mr. 1- CHAMBERS,) that we have already adopted in the bill k of rights, a provision that the courts shall be always at open to every citizen. d Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I will vote against the fy amendment now because it does not go far enough. e Because in myjudgement,if a man is qualified to pracld tice law at all,he is qualified to appear before acourt of t chancery. I will vote against the provision now, and' reserve my efforts for a chance to insert it in another ~e place. Mr. WOODBURY demanded the yeas and nays up on the questionl of agreeing to the amenedment of the ~f committee, which were ordered, and resulted —yeas 56, nays 36, as follows V I YEAS —Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgcmery, m. Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, e Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Florence, G illett, Green rt of Ross, Groesheck, Hamilton, Harlan, Henderson, e Hitchcock of Geauga, Humphreville, Hunt, Kennon, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Le,dbetter, Mason, Mitchell, i Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nashl, Norris, Otis, Peck, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott~of Harriso on, Smith of Highland, Smrith of Warren, Smith of e Wyandot, Stanbery, St.anton, Stiiwell, Swan, Swift, e eVance of Butler, Way, Williams, Worthington and s President-56. d NAYs-Messrs.Archbold,Cahill,Chaney,Ewing,Forbes, Farr, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunter, Joises, King, Larsh, Larwill,Leech, e Loudon, Manon, Morris. Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Steb bins, Stick tey, Stidger, Struble, Tay lor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark and Woodbury-26. So the amendment was agreed to, and the words t were stricken out. The question then being on the second amendment, to wit: in section one, strike out the words "coulnty courts," and insert in lieu thereof, the words, "courts of Probate," it was agreed to. The question then being on the third amendment, to wit: in section one, where, towards tho close of the ;same, these words occur: "inferior to the supreme court," insert after the word Court, the words "in one or more counties," it was agreed to. The question then being on the fourth amendment, to wit: in section two, strike out the words, "a Chief Justice and three Associate Justices," and insert in lieu thereof the following words: "five judges;" it was aoreod to. The question then being on the fifth amendment, to wit: in section three, towards thie close of the first pe riod, strike out these words: "in each of wi-ich three judges of the common pleas shall be elected by the qualfied electors therein," and insert in lieu thereof, the following: "And each of said districts, consisting of three or more counties, "shall be sub divided into three parts of compact territory, bounded by county lines,and as nearly equal in population as practicable, in each of which one judge of the court of common pleas for said district, and residing therein, shall be elected by the qualified voters o f s uc h sub di visi onf' it was agreed to. The question then being onl the sixth amendment, wit: strike out section four, and insert in lieu thereof 'he following: rid of all this exclusiveness now. The time has beer also, that a matt could not exercise his skill as a prac tisinlg physician without a diploma; and this exclu siveniess was defended upon the ground that a sic man could not exercise a safe and proper judgmen wi th r eferen ce to the employm ent of a physici an; an therefore the State should step il and protect him, b authorizing only a certain class of men to practismedicine. Andi s ge nt ed this argument wa s held to b e a geoo one for a long time. But now, at last, we have go rid of that also. Well, then, if we can trust the citizen with the car of bo th his soul an d b ody, I think w e may as wel trust him w ith th e c are of his purse. For our spiritu al an.d bodily health must certainly be considered o as much consaquenc e as ou r purses. Ther e is a k ind of special privilege eijoyed by law, yers in which a an ot her class of people would like verw much to participate, es pecially as i t regards the tranr action of some very simple b usiness for which they do ot like to pay fees. And I think it would not blie te py e d t u d not amiss to allow a man who has such business in cour to employ his neighbor at perhaps little or no expens at all, to go in and attend to this business for him provided, only, tt at his neighbor shall have the quali fications which 1 have mentioned. Mr. KIRKWOOI). When the peopie of Ohi sent us up here, I suppose they had some definit~ object in view. They haa been laboring under some inconveniences grievious to be borne, and they sent u~ up here to remove them. But I have never heart any gentleman say, here or elsewhere before, that the evil here sought to be reme(iied was considered to be a very great evil by the people at large. I am surf that the mass of the people whom I represent here never tho,ght of complaining that they had not the right to practise law. I desire to confine my action here to the remnova! of palpable existing evils; and I am satisfied that the farmiers of Richland county do not ask for the privilege of leaving their farms and their plows and cominig into our courts of justice to practise law. But whenever I can be convinced that I am mistaken in this, I will support this provision. We have however, a few men in our county, whose complaints I have heard upon this subject-and who are they? I have said that theyr are not ouir farmers, neither are they our mechanics and working men. They do not belong to those classes which make. up the strength of the country. But they are those men who are constantly prowling about our justices' courts; fomenting quarrels and disputes amongst their neighbors,and encouraging litigation. These are the only men whom I have heard complain of the exclusive privileges which belong to lawyers. Mr. STICKNEY. It seems to me that those of us who are disposed to vote for this provision are placed in rather a delicate position, but I think it would require the exercise of less modesty on the part of the lawyers to vote for themselves the enjoyment of privileges which would give them a superiority over others in the community, than for us who are not lawyers to vote for a provision which would elevate us to an equality with them. Therefore I shall vote for the amnend meat. Mlr. MANON'S amendment was nonw agreed to. And then the question again recurred upon the amendment of the committee. Mr. CHA MB:ERS. I can have no objection at all to a declaration that the courts shall be openl to every man ill the State for the tranlsaction of his own busi. hess Bult, I am not willing that every man in the State should come into our courts of justice as an advacate, ill contravention of the rules of the court. SEc. 4. There shall be established in each county a Prodn bate Court, which shall be a Court of Record, and always open, and holden by one judge elected by the qualified voters of the county,with jurisdiction in Probate and Testamentary mnatters. the appointment of administrators and guardians and the settlement of the accounts of executors, administra. 681 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. hors and guardians, and with such jurisdiction in Habeas Corpus, the issuing of marriage licenses, and for the sale -f land by executors. administrators and guardians, as may be yrovided by law. ,'The Judge of Probate shall hold his office for the term of three years, and shall receive such compensation, either pay able out of the county Treasury, or by fees, or both, as shall be provided by law." Mr. McCORMICK moved to amend the amendment by striking out the following words: "by fees or both." Mr. McCORMICK. If this section prevails with out my amenldment, we shall have determined that this judge shall be paid only by fees. No man can deny that he may employ a clerk if he will; but it is lnot right and proper that the judge should receive the fees and pay his clerki himself. That would be giving him too much power-a power of collusion. Mr. SWAN. The dutiesof this office are such that it seems to me that his foes might be prescribed by law. It seems to me that no confusion could arise from giving to him the fees which are now paid to Clerks and Masters in Chancery, for the examination of accounts of executors, administrators and guardians. And that, I think, would be a sufficient comnpen)sation 'or this officer. And by permitting the Legislature to prescribe that he shall receive such fees, it is evident that the amount of his salary might be saved to the county t r e asury. But as the section is drawn it wil be altogethe r discretionary with the legislature to say whether this officer shall be paid ill fees. or by a salary, or by tooth; so that'if the plan of paying byfeesshould be found to lead to improper collusions, or any species of abuse, the Legislature might provide that he shall be paid by a salary out of the county treasury. I hope the section will be allowed to remails as it is.' Mr. McCORMICK'S amendment was disagreed to' and the question recurred upon the adoption of the sixth amendmei)t. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE moved to further amend the amendnrent, by inserting after the word "Iguardians," where it occurs the third time, the following words: "and such other jurisdiction." Mr. SWAN said; this brings tip again, the old ques. tion of jurisdiction. Under the old Constitution if a I~ersoii was charged with an assault and battery, and other inferior offences it was necessary, unless he plead guilty', to bind hini over by recognizance or commit him to jail to await his trial in the Court of Commnlon Pleas. So, it was common for transient persons to be taken up for stealing property of trifling value, and at great expense to tax payers supported in jail until the session of' the courts. The General Assembly could provide no remedy against this delay and expense, without contravening the Constitution, for such criminals could not be convicted except upon indictment bv the Grand Jury. The standing committee on the Judicial Department in view of these just causes of complaint in the old system, with much doubt and reluctance provided for the trial of these inferior offences by the probate judge and thus in some degree disappointed the general es pectationi of the people, of having a probate court with probate jurisdiction onlv. The Convention however, by dispensitg with indictmenlts by a granvd jury, for these inferior offences, lhave relieved this subject from the diffculties which embarrassed the committee, when they mnade their original report. By dispensing with this cumbersomne mode of prosec;utionl, persons guilty of these inferior oftenlcosX call be brought to trial before a jury without delay, under the Supervision of two el more justices, or ill the cities where the gaeatest expense is incurred by the delaxs of the old system, before a jury under the supervision of;nayera, giving the probate court simply and only a probate jurisdiction. The duties of the office may be performed by any intelligent and well informed person, who has a competent knowledge of accounts, and the office will no doubt be held generally by persons who do not belong to the legal profession. It is also recommended to our approval on account of its economy. The moderate fees now received by the Clerks of Courts and Masters in Chancery in pro bate and testamentary matters, it is believed would be an ample compensation to the probate judge, and if so, this Court would not add a cent of ckarge to the tax payers. But if the Probate judge is compelled to try jury cases and appeals, the people would probably, at least in many counties, seek lawyers for the office. If so, the probate judge having jurisdiction inL civil cases must necessarily abandon all professional business and rely on his salary for his support. A salary of four hundred dollars to each judge of probate, would cre ate an aggregate expense greater than the aggregate ex pense of all the judges of the courts under the old system, and such a salary would not command a very high order of learning or talents. A County Court if needed, iln one or more counties can be established under the present system by the General Assembly. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I do not provide by this amendment, that the legislature shall give to this court any jurisdiction. I only leave it open so far that they may authorize the courts of probate to license marriages, and to take cognisance of such matters as cannot be considered strictly belonging to the duties of the judiciary. Such as appeals from the decisions of township Trustees, county Commission ers and county Auditors. But I would not give to the Judge the jurisdiction of causes either civil or criminal, where a jury is to be called. I would far rather confine it to the mere business of a probate court, yet I think it might be found necessary, at some future time or other, to give to this court some jurisdiction beyond what the section now provides. I deny that the question of salary is raised at all by this amendment. If the legislature should give to this court, jurisdiction of the trial of civil and criminal matters, then they might have t,, consider something about the pay. But I do not propose any such thing. I propose only the jurisdiction of some small matters which may be just as well disposed of here as in the higher tribunals. I have no objections to the mnode of payment; and if gentlemren are willing to leave this matter open to the supervision of the legislature, why may they not leave also with the legislature the question of jurisdiction. The evils of the old system, as it has been frequiently said here, consisted in a constitutional tying up of the hands of the legislature, so that they could not enlarge the jurisdiction of the courts. Mr. KENNON. I will say but a word or two in reply to the gentleman from Medina, (Mr. HUMPHREVILLE.) The great object in the creation of this court was this: to prescribe such duties for the Judge, that they could be all discharged by any good accountant in the county. The object was, that he should not necessarilyv be a lawyer; and therefore it was thought proper by the committee to confer no more jurisdictiot. We thought that by making him his own clerk, the f ees of his office would be amply sufficient for his comlpensation. But the moment you attempt to confer upon him any jurisdiction involving law questions, it would become necessary that this place should be filled by a lawyer, so that as you increase the jurisdiction you oemust increase the foes; and I should not wonder if this amendment were to increase the expense of these courts, to the several county Treasuries of the State, I .682 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20. to something like the amount of eighty-seven thou- gard to the appraisement or the advertisement, and a sand dollars. variety of things which might and would occur in un Mr. HUMPHREVILLE, (in his seat.) A mere bug skilled hands-such as questions which might arise bear thrown in. in regard to the construction of the will-whether the Mr. LARSII. I am in favor of the amendment of will authorized the executor to make the sale, &c. the gentleman from Medinia, [Mr. HuMPHRsEvILLE,] for Now since the committee on the judicial departthe reason that this report provides that in certain menthaveproposed to confer uponthis inferiortribu counties, where they may be needed, the General As- nal, powers which are just as important in their con nal, powers which are just as important in their consembly may provide county courts. And it seems to sequences as those exercised by any judge upon the bench of any court in the State, —a power affecting me that cases might possibly arise, in some counties bench of any court in the State,a power affecting I ~~~~~~~~the rights of widows, minors and purcasers, since where their business might not be sufficient to justify te rights of widos, minors ad purchasers since the establishment of a county court; that they might this court is to be clothed with such important judibe relieved from the expense of a county court by ex cial poers, I ak, why does the gentleman seek now tending the jurisdiction of the probate court. I think to declare that their jurisdiction shall not include the ,exercise of judicial i owers? I ask the gentleman if that it could work no harm to give this power to the exercise of judicial powers? I ask the gentleman if General Asseiiibly. lie would be willing to trust these tribunals with the The question being now taken upon Mr. HUMPIaRF- sale of real estate where a hundred minors are inter ILLS amendment, aud the yeas and nays being or- ested,-to order and confirm such a sale, and attend dered and takein,resulted yeas 45, nays 42, as follows to all other matters whch might he necessary in order to assure a good and sufficient title to the purchaser: YEAs-Messrs. Brown of Athens, Cahill, Curry, Ewart, and then on the score of incapacity, denys to these Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance. Green of Ross, Gregg, courts such judicial jurisdiction as might consist in Holmes, Holt Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter. Jones,ch judcal urisdiction as might consist i Larsh, Lai will. Leech, Leadbetter, Manlion, Morehead, Morris, little road appeals, and those minor classes of cases, McCloud, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reem connected with the administration of civil and crimielin, Roll, Scott of larrison, Scott of Auglalze, Sellers, nal law which might come up from a justice of the Smith of Wyandot, S ~ebbins, Stickley, Stidger, Struble Thompson of Stalik Vance of Butler Warren, Woodbury peace. WVorthin ton and President-45. This power of the -ettlement of decedents' estates, NAYs-Messrs. Andrevs, Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, is the most important power which can be exercised Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown oj by any of our courts. It enters into all the business Carroll, Chambers, Chaney,Collings,CGook, Ewing, Florence.. Gillett, Groesbeck, Ilard, Harlan, Hawkins. Henderson; of life There is no branch of the judicial service Hitchcock of Geauga, Kennon, Kirliwood, Lawrence, Lou which comes home to the business and the bosoms of don, Mason, Mitchell, McCorinick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Saw- every man, woman and child in the country, like this yer, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren,'tanbery, Stan- b ins yer, sniith of igblaiid, Sii -business of probate. ton, Stilwell, Swan,'I aylor, Thompson of Sheldy, Way Mr. - pE and Williams-42. Mr. STILWELL, (interposing.) We have not giv en to this court all this power. We have merely au So the amendnient was adopted.t So theqeto a girmend ment wasuo adopted. thorized the General Assembly to confer it, if they see And the question again recurred upon the ithadoption proper ~of the sixth amendment. -Mr. GREEN. Will the chair be so kind as to read Mr. STILWELL moved to further amniend the the section? amendment by adding to the end of the same, as The PRESIDENT read the section, and the amend amended, the following words: "Not of a judicial meit, proposed by thecommittee. character." Mr. GREEN. I would like to see the official con Mr. GREEN of Ross. I am aware of the disad- struction which the gentleman from Muskingum vantages which every gentleman must labor uider puts upon that. The Legislature confer jurisdiction. Who is not a member of the conimittee on the judicial Well, supposing they do: still I put the query to the departmenlt, in prolposiing amendments to this report. gentleman. Why does he seek to restrain the con Isay this in no invidious spirit, but simply out of the frment of inferior judicial power, whilst the commit respect which I entertain for the members of that tee to which iae belongs have authorized the conferCommittee. ment of the highest judicial powers? I am surprised, sir, at the proposition of the gentle- Mr. COOK demanded the yeas and nays upon the man from Muskingum, [Mr STILWEI,.L.] The con- adoption of Mr. STILWELL's amendment, and the vention have adopted an amendment for the purpose samebeing ordered and taken, resulted-yeas 45, nays of giving to the Legislature the power to coufer as ex- 46 as follows tended a jurisdiction upon this court, as they may see, proper; and the gentleiman now proposes to limit this YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barhee, Barnet of Mont. i sI goniery, Baiiett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, jurisdiction,so thatit shall not extend to matters of a Chanmbers, Chaitcy, Colilings, Cook, Ewing, Florence, Giljudicial character. iett, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Now, I will ask, lwhat higher judicial function can Hitchcock of Geauga, Hunt, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawbe conferred upon this cotrt, tian the committee them- rence, Loudon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, Nash, selves have proposed to gives them The coom mte the mOtis, Peck, Sawyer, Smith of Highlanll, Smith of Warren, selves have proposed to give them. TI'hey propose to Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thomp. ive them the right to control and direct the sale of son of Shelby and Way-45. land bv executors, administrato s and guardians. I NAYS-Messrs. Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, would inquire whether any higher judicial function Curry, Do-sey, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Green of wouldhinquire whetexerc any higherjufctiaonwith te Ross, Gregg, Hard, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunter, than this can be exercised, in connection with the Jones, Larsh, Larwfl, Leech, lIeadbetter, Manon, McCloud, transaction of that description of business? Thepow- McCormick Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, er exercised by the court of probate in the settlement Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize. of the accounts of executors, administrators and guar- Sellers, Smith of ~i y andot, Stebbils, Stickney, Stidger,Swift, dians, is certainly the exercise of a very high judicial Thoomdbury on rthgtoa Vante WoBrthlerntoWaen, ilso power, anui although it is true, that the final settlement upon the reco)rd is not binding after a lapse of So the amendment was rejected, and the question time, yet, in one aspect of the case, it is the exercise again recurred upon agreeing to the sixth amendof the very highest judicial power. For when the nient. sale is made, it has got to be confirmed; andI in after Mr. SWAN proposed further to amend the 4th sectime, the legality of such a sale might be contested tion by adding after the word "jurisdiction," these on account of defectiveness either in the record, in re words: "in matters not requiring the trial of cases." 683 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 21. ment under this protest, that I offered it in good faiih, and that I believe it should have an entirely different interpretation from the amendmnent of the gentleman from Muskingumr. I withdraw the amoendmient. Mr. STILWELL moved to further amend the amendment by inserting after the word "ijustification," the following words:."In any one county or counties." On motion of Mr. THOMPSON, of Shelby, the Convention adjourned. Mr. GREEN of Ross. Is not that the same thing upon which we have just voted? It certainly amounts tothe same thing. What is a trial? Or rathler, what is the duty of a tribunal before which a trial is had? It is to exercise judicial power-judicial discretion — judicial wisdom-judicial nonsense or absurdity. These things pertain to a trial; and a trial may be by a jury or by an individual judge. Every case requir ing a judgment or decision, of the court is a trial; and this is the same thing which we have voted against, and it should be so decided by the chair. Mr. SWAN. It seems to me that the gentleman is nlistaken in his idea of what constitutes a judicial trial. Does it follow that nojudicial act can be performed ex cept what pertaintis to the trial of causes. Mr. GREEN of Ross No sir, but I was asking whether judicial knowledge was not necessarily exer cised in every trial? Mr. SWAN, continuing. My amendment proposes that this Court shall have no jurisdiction in rn'jtters requiring the trial of causes. In other words, that there shall not be a jury hanging about this Court. But th:s extension of jurisdiction would allow of the confession of judgment, and the hearing of all ex parte matter. An d there are other matters which might be done in this Court. But, as to keeping this Court open for the trial of causes at all times; he should protest agains t any such thing; for such a change as this would involve an increase of expense, induced by the necessity for raising the sa lary of the judge, who would ha ve t o be s elected out of the lega l profession and paid out of the county treasury, for the nmornent you give such a place to a lawyer, he must quit his practice. It would not do for him to be a lawyer and a judge- at the same time; therefore the lawyer would have to be supported independently of his practice. What kind of a salary do you suppose you would have to pay a lawyer who would be fit for such a place? Mr. GREEN of Ross, here interposed and raised a question of order upon the ground tnat the ameind ment of the gentleman from Franklin, [Mr. SWAN,] was exactly the same in substance with the amend ment of the gentleman from Muskingum. The PRESIDENT. Thisis a question of fact more thati - question of order. I do not know myself, but that the gentleman is correct in saying that the exer ercise of any judicial authority is a trial. I suppose anything that you can fix your mind upon is also a trial in the same sense. Mr. SWAN. Any matter left to the decision of the court, has no relation to the trial of a cause. The PRESIDENT. The Chair does not like to declare the amendment out of order. Mr. HITCHCOCK. of Geauga. The Convention has decided by two votes in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Medina, [Mr. HUMPHREVILLE.] Now, it seems to me that after these decisions my friends are pursuing the subject too far, when they undertake to press amendments amounting to about the same thing which has been already deliberately rejected. The action of the Consention to be sure has been different from the opinion of the committee but that action has been duly ascertained, and I dislike to see any effort made to avoid it. For myself, I do not apprehend the same danger which seems to have taken possession of the minds of my friends.. There is, at last, but a constitutional permit, confided to the discretion of the Legislature; and I am not afraid that the Legislature will undertake to give to this court of probate jurisdiction, the trial of civi causes. It seems to me, therefore, that we had better leave it alone, and have no more words about it. Mr. MASON. [To Mr. SWAwN.] Withdraw it. Mr. SWAN'. I am willing to withdraw the amend_ ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIRST DAY. FRIDAY, February 21, l1'51.? 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adj.ournment: Mr. VANCE, of Butler, preset)ted a petition from John Alexanider, and 50 other citizens of Butlercoun ty, praying that a clause be inserted in the new Con stitution prohibiting the Legislature from passing aiy law legalizing the traffic inl spirituous liquors, which, on motion, was laid on the table. On motion of Mr. MANON, the Convention took up the report of the standing committee on the Judi cial Department. The question pending being on the amendment of Mr. STILWELL to the sixth amendment, to-wit: In sert after the word "jurisdiction," the flolowing words, "in any county or countfies," it was-adopted Mr. McCORMICK thought it would be very unfor tunate to give to the same court a different jurisdiction in different counties. It would lead to great perplex ities in t he practice, and might be productive of much wrong. Mr. HUMPHREV]LLE. I see no great harm in it. Mr. LARSH was desirous to leave a control of the matter to the General Assembly. He hoped the Judi ciary system would be left in somne degree flexible, and that the Legislature would not be too much tied down by this Constitution. The State of Indiana, by its new Constitution, has given the Legislature power to change the Judiciary systemi, and lie saw no reason why it should not be done in this State. Mr. STILWELL. I do not see what difference it makes. In all cases where this court has an original jurisdiction, an appeal lies to the district court in the usual manner. It will be in some respects a great accommodation, and certainly can do no one any harm. He believed such an arrangement would meet with general approbation. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. KMIRKWO oD t o ea o the amenda nt of the comunittee, the same was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the sixth amendment, it was at e.d to. The question then being on the seventh amendment, to-wit: In section nine, line one, insert after the word "increase," the words -or d iminish," it was adopted. The question then being on the eighth amendment, to-wit: In section nine, in the middle of the same, where these words occur, ",change of districts," insert after the word "districts," the words'or the subdivisions thereof," it was agreed to. The question then being on the ninth amendment, to-wit: In section nii)e, near the close of the same, strike out the words "or addition," and insert in lieu thereof the words, " addition or diminution," it was agreed to. The question then being, on the tenth amendment, to-wit: In section seven, near the end of the same, strike out these words, "two years, one for three years, one for four years, and one for five years," and insert in lieu thereof the following words, "one year, one for two years, one for three years, one for four years, and one for five years," it was agreed to. 684 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 21. The question then being on the eleventh amendment YEAS-Messrs. Brown of Athens, Curry, Ewart, to-wit, s:rike out the followit g: Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Sec. 10. There shall be elected ii each of tl',. counties in Larsh, Ma:on, McCloud, Nash, Perkins, Scott of Har the State, by the electors thereof, one Cleli, who shrll hold ri on, Stantoni, Swift, Taylor, Wiilson and Worthing his office for the term ol three yeals, ani unlil his successoi to- 19 is c ~~~~~~~~~~~teni —19. is elected anid qualified, and who slall be the Clerk of all retofont tle Courts of Reco d held therein; I)rovided. that the General Mn Assenibly may provide for the election in a::y county. of a gonery, Barnett of Preble, Blair, Blickensderfer, Clerk, for each or any of sail Courts, when in their opinion Bi-own of Carroll, Calill, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, the business may require it. Dor.ey, Eawinz, Fart, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene And provided alIso, that the Judge of the C ounty C our t may f Dfiace, Gregg Gresbck -ki, ederson, be authorized to perform the duties of'lerk of his county, in such cases as may be prescribed by law. Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hilccocck of GOcauga, Holt, And insert iii lieu there(of, the folluowing: |Holnes, Hootmnan. Humphreville,Huint, HIlniter,Jones, "There shall be elected in eah count, s the electors Kennon, Ki,ug, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwvill, Leech, theresof, one e e len ofh tourt of CemnionP' eeats who ha Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell. Morehead, Mor thereof, one cler)- of the i olirt of Common Pleas, who shall hold his offlce for a term of three. ears,and until his successor ris, McCloud, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, shall be elected andi qualified. He shall, by virtue of lis Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawx er, Scott of office be Cletk of all other C,urts of Record held tierein; but Auglalze, Selleirs, Smith of Highlaid, Smnith of War the General a. ssembly, may provide by law for th e el ection of a Clerk with a like lterm of office for each or any other of ren. Smith of Wyandot Staiibeiy, Stebbins, Stilwell, the Courts of Record, and may authorize the Judge of the Stickily, Stidger, Striible, Swan, Thompson of Shel Probate Court to perf(orti the duties of Clerkl for his Court, bv, Thompson of Stark, Va,ce of Butler, Warren, under such regulati,.s, as may be directed by law." Way, Willians, Woodbuiy and President-74. Mr. IMcCORMICK moved to amend te amendment So the amendment was rejected. by adding at the end thereof the'following: "the Clerk Mr. RANNEY moved to further amend the words of court shall be removable for such cause, and oin u m proposed to be stricken out, by striking out of section 3uch manner, as shall be prescribed by law," thicl. two the following words: "At the seat of government, Mwas agr ee d to. fute aedteaedand such other terms at the seat of goverinment or Mr CURRY moved to further amend the amen- elsewhere," and insert in lieu thereof the following ment by striking, out the word "-three," and inserting words: " fri at least four different places in the State." in lieu thereof the word "five." in liew thereof the word "five." Mr. BLICKENSDERFER demanded a division. On which motion,... On wANhidc'aded thi ona d nays,The question thlen being first (oii striking out. Mr. RANNEY dde. R(1ANNEY. I desire to remark that the Supreme were ordered, and resulted yea's,q2, niays a72, as fel were ordered, and resulted yeas 2, nays 2, as fo CoIrt, since this subject was up before, has been en lows: larged by an additionii of one Judge. It was before YEAS-Messrs. Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry, thought that there was not sufficient force in that Ewart, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, court to perform the duty required by the ainenidment, Hawkins, Leadbetter, Mason, Morehead, Morris, Mc- but that difficulty has been obviated. The idea tlIa Cloud, Nash, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Smith of; the Supreme Court can be holden in one place only in Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Swift and Wil- the State, as been uttely abandoned in all the large liains-22..~~~~~~~~th State, has been utterly abandoned in all the large NiAys-Me s An d es Archbold, Barnet of Mont- I Statesof this Uiion. The Stateof Pennsylvania has NAys-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnetof Mont- I five places, the State of Newt York in four, and the gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensder- State of Massachisetts in t fer, Brown of Athens, Cahlill, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Mr STILWELL of Massacus oetts in seven. MNr. STILWELL. I -would iniquire of the gentle Dorsey, Ewing, Farr. Florence, Forbes Gillett Greene man from Trumbull, [Mr. RAIN\:Y, 3 whether this is of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, not a matter that may safely be left to theL(gislature. Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootian, Hutn- There will be but a small ainounst of business left for phreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirk-the Supree Cort to perfor if the district feature wood,Lars, Larenc, Lawill Leeh Liey -the Suproine Court to perforno if the district feature wood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larll. Leech, Ld, Lou- is retained in the system. Whether the courts are don, Manon, Mitchell, hMcCormick, Orton, Otis, P,thter- holdeii in one place or four. will naake very little difson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelii, Scott fernce ith the mass of the people. It ill doubt of iigm'z, Slles, mit ofWyadot Stisbry,ference with the mass of the people. It will doubt of Aglaize, Seller,,Smthfless be an accommodation to the lawyers in three, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickniey, Stidg'er, St-ruble, Swan, Stebbins, Stell, Stickey, Stdger, Stuble, Sa, four, or five places, where the courts happen to be Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thomnpson of Stark,' Taylofr, rThompson if Shelby, WThopson of Stark,: holden, but to a party, whether hlie travels thirty, or tance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury forty, or fifty miles, to attend to his suit, is to him of Worthington and President —72. very little consequence. very little consequence. So the amendment was rejected. Mr. RANNEY. I wish this Constitution to carry The question then being on agreeing to the amend- on its face the evidence that justice is to be cm'ried ment as amended, it was agreed to. somewhere in the reach of the peop!e. Besides, if Mr. LEADBETTER moved to further amend the the provision remains as it is, there will be an eternal report by striking out all of the samte after the words colntention in the Legislature upon the question, "judicial powers of this State," anid inserting in lieu whether the court shall sit all the time at Columbus, thereof the report submitted by the select committee or whether it shall sit in one or more other places. on the Judilicial Department. He wanted to settle that difficulty in advance. Mr. SAWYER demanded a division. Mr. STILWELL. I think the difficllty anticipated The question then being on striking out all of the by the gentleman from Trumbull will not be obviated report after the words "judicial powers of this State," by his amendiuent. It will still be a subject of con. Mr. STANTON moved to perfect the words pro- tentiton in what places the court will be holden. It posed to be stricken out, by striking out of section will be impossible to anticipate and settle all these two the words "of the State at large," and inserting difficulties here. in lieu thereof the following: "In such manner as may Mr. LARSH eould not exactly see how this amendbe prescribed by law." mert was to bring justice ally nearer to the people. On which motion, If the Constitution should provide that the business Mr. OTIS demanded the yeas and nays, which of the different sections of the State shall }-e done at were ordered, and resulted yeas 19, nays 74, as fol- the nearest points this effect might be produced, but lows: not otherwise, for it does not appear that any power 685 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 21. would be left in the Legislature to district the State or the purpose; and, in fact, the minute provisions of the bill in other respects, might be construed to exclude any conclusion in favor of the right of the General Assembly to do so. If such should be the case, the distribution of the business would be merely arbitrary, and in the hands of the courts alone, and the result might be inconvenience instead of convenience, and disorder inistead of order. The question then being on the amendmrnent of Mr. RANNEY, Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 28, nays 68, as follows: YEAS-sMessrs. Farr, Florence, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Holt, Humrphreville, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Maiiou, Mitchell, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranuey, Reemelin, Scott of Auglaize, Stanton, Stebbins, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Stark, Wilson and Woodbury-28. NAYS-Messrs.Andrews, Archbold, Barniet of Montgomery, Baritett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Cahill, Chaney, Colliugs, Cook, Curry, Dorsey,Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hootinan, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Leadbetter, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormrick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Peck, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stilwell, Sticki niey, Swan, Swift, Thompson ef Shelby, Vance of Butler, Warren,Way, Williams, Worthington and Presidenit-68. Mitchell, McCloud s, Nash, Otis,e, Quigle, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Har rison, Scotto f Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Struble. Swan, Thompson of Stark, Will iams and Worthingto hn- 44. So the demand for the previous quest ion was sus tained. The question then being on striking out all of the R eport after the words "Judicial power of the State," in the first sectio n: Mr. McCORMICK demanded the yeas and nasys, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 32, nays 46, as follows: YEAs-Messrstssrs. Blair, Chaney, FarH h Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hard, Holt, Hoot man, Humphreville, Jones, King, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manoun, M itchell, Patterson, Quig ley, Raney, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Asuglaize, Sellers, Statton, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Stark, Williams, Wilson and Worthington —32. NAx-s —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickens derfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Cahill, Collings, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Grocsbeck, Hamilton, Har lan, ttawkins, Henderson, litchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hunt, Hunter, Ken lnoni, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Loudon, Mason, Morehiead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Nor ris, Orton, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Reemneliin, Riddle,Roll, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith. of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickmey, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Tfhompsoni of Shelby, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Woodbury and President-66. So the Conventioni refused to strike out the Report. The question then being on ordering the Report to be engrossed: Mr. W ORTHINGTON moved to lay the Report on the table. On which motion, Mr. LARWILL demanded theyeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 28, nays 69, as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Archbold, Cahill, Chaney, Cook, Curry, Forbes, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hard, Holt, Hunt, Jones, Larsh, Larwill, Leech.Leadbetter, Lidey Manon, Mitchell, Patterson, Quigley, Stanton, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Stark, Williams, Wilson and W orthington-28. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barn-t of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Browni of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing. Farr, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Groesbeck, Haiiilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Cuyahloga, Hitchcock of Geauga,Holmes, Hootmani, Humphreville, Hunter, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Loudon, Mason, Morris, Morehead, McCormick, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Orton, Orton, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize. Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Staniberty, Stebbins, Stilwell, Sticknley, Swift, Taylm, Thomlpsonl of Shelby, Vance of Butler. Warren, Way, Woodbulry anti President —69. So the mnotion to lay onl the table was rejected. The question thenr being off ordering the Report to be engrossed: Mr. LAWRENCE demanded thie yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted —yeas 65, nays 32, as follows: YEAs —Messrs. Andrewvs, Barbee, Barnet of Montgorecry,:Barnett of Preble, Bates,:Blickcnsderfer, So the motion to strike out was rejected. The question then being' on striking out all after the words Judicial power of the State, in the first section: Mr. MANON moved that the Report and the pend img amendments be laid on the table and orderpd to be printed. Mr. MITCHELL moved that the Convention take a recess; which was disagreed to. The question then being on laving the Report on the table and ordering it to be printed: it was disagreed to. The question then being on striking out all of the Report, after the words "Judicial power of the State," in the first section: Mr. WOOD BURY moved the previous question. The question then being-Shall the main question be now put? Mr. HOLT demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 53, nays 44, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgonery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Chamibers, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Ewing, Farr, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Ilawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootmian, Hutinter, Kennon, Kirkwood, Lidey, London, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, P erkins, Reemelin, Sawyer, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Butler, W arretn, Way, Wilson, W oodbiory and President-53. NAYS-Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Collings, Curry, Florence, Forbes, Grahami, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geatiga, Holt, Humphreville, Hniit, Jones, King, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Manion, 686 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRtI)AY, FE,BRuARY 21. Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Cook.' examined and unanimously approved, endorsed, and Collings, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, G(illett, an opinion was expressed that it was the best that Groesbeck, Hamnilton, Harlai, Hawkins, Henderson, could be formed. I have, sir, great confiden.ce in the Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga,Holmes, opinion of the coinnulttee, and especially in that of Hlumphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Kennon, King, Kirk- the honorable chairman, and I hope that no changes wood, Larsh, Lawrence, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, will be made by which the time for the commenceMorris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, ment of the performance of military duty shall be Otis, Peck, Perkins, Reeinelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, changed from eighteen years, and I believe that in Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of that respect at least, this system of military affairs Wyanidot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, will compare favorably with any that we have in the Stickney, Swaii. Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, world. Sir, who does not point with pride and pleasVance of Butler, Warren, Way and Woodbary-65. ure, to the deeds of arms performed by the gallant NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Curry. Farr, sons of Ohio. There is another reason against the Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, amendment of the gentleman from Holmes, (Mr LEADHard, Holt, Hootman, Jones. Larwill, Leech, Lead- BETTER.) The young and ardent men of the Statebetter, Lidey, Malon, Mitchell, Patterson, Quigley, those who are of the age whenl military ardor burns Ranney, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Autglaize, Sellers, brightest in the human breast. will revolt at it, and Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Stark, Williams, Wil- will be tempted by their dislike to vote against this son, Worthington and President-32. Constitution. So the Report was ordered to be engrossed. Mr. MORRIS hoped the amendment would prevail. And, on motion, was ordered to be read a third He did not understand that sense there was in calltime on Monday, the 24thl instant. ming upon a boy of eighteen, to be enrolled or to per On motion of Mr. REEMELIN, form military duty. He hadl no desire to see the The Convention resolved itsell into a Committee of minors of the State going fort,lh ith cornstalks upon the Whole-Mr. COLLfNGS in the Chair. their shoulders, to serve the State in the performance Oi motion of Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, of military duty at a militia rmuster. lie had not a The Committee took up Report No.2 of the Stand" copy of the Constitution aid laws of the United iiig Committee on the Militia. States by him, but he had no doubt but the amend The same being under consideration: ment would be foutil perfectly consistent with those Mr. LEADBETTER moved to strike out the word laws. A man must be twenty-one years of age before eighteen and insert the words twenty-one. he can exercise the privilege of a citizen, and what Mr. L. said; I do not know what rightwe have reason can be given for another rule in iegard to to compel a boy'to do military duty, and I think that a soldier? He has no control over his time or his so far as numbers are concerned, those between actions, and is as unfit for military as for civil duty eighteen and twenty-one are sufficient. I admit that Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. ViWhen this motion was in time of war or invasion, circumstances might favor first made I was in favor of it, btt the arguments of a change of the rule, but do not deem the danger so the honorable gentleman from Brown, have convinced great as to make any change in my vote necessary, or me. I hope that every stand of arms to which the in myopinion. To callout men too young, may be of State is entitled will be drawn, and as heretofore, great inconvenience in other respects. A call mayI distributed among the counties, in proportion to the include both father and son in the same family, thus ipopulation. Such was the case in Mediira county. leaving it without a male head. If a minor,refuses We had a number of guns, swords and pistols, but to muster, there are no means of compelling him to they have been scattered away. The boys used theni (lo it, or of punishing him for refusing. If you fine to shoot birds with, and somne went farther west, aind him, the fine mlust come out of his father or guardian some emigrated to California. I am not disposed to The provision is also hard upon the Quakers, and is complain of this disposition of the public property; of evil tendency, and there are many fathers who do on the other hand, perhaps it is the best to which it not desire to see their sons exposed to the dissipations cal be put. that attend military musters. Mr LIDEY. I believe the members of this con Mr. WORTHINGTON. I am afraid that the pro- vention, have taken an oath to support the Constitu. visions of the section, may be considered as conflict- tion of the United States. Now what is required by ing with the provisions of the laws of the United the laws of the United States frarned under that consti States, regulating the enrollment and discipline of tuition? They provide that all between the ages of the militia. For the purpose of obviating this diffi- eighteen and forty-five, shall be enrolled. It was for culty, I move the following amendment to the first that very reason, that the report wtis made as it is. As section of the report:. to the practice spoken of, by the genitlermati from Me Strike out the first, second, third and fourth lines dina, of scattering the public arars about the State, I to the word "militia" inclusive, and insert as follows': hope that a stop will be put to it i tl the uture, and that "All persons in the State of Ohio, who are, or here- under this constitution, it will be provided against. It after may be, required by the laws of the United seems to nme, that gentlenman canirot vote for the States to perform military duty." arieridmeritof the gentlertan fron) Hiolmes, (Mr. LEAD The question first being on the amendment of Mr. BE.TTER,) without violating the oaI i he has taken to LEADBETTER, support the Constitution of tihe United States. Not Mr. LAWRENCE. I hope sir, that the amendment only so, but it will teduce the mtnilitary force of the will not prevail. We have sir, imposed the duty of State. The gentleman from Clinrton, (Mr. MoRRis,) preparing a report on military affairs, on a committee talks of cornstalk soldiers, and sueersat military organ composed of several of the most experienced and tal- izationi. Sir, the time has beeu, when the people entedmilitary gertlemen in the State-gentlemen who of the State were very much indebted to the corn have given infinite labor arid care in the preparation stalk soldiers of the country. He thanks the young of a perfect report. That report is before the Con- men of eighteen, are niot fit for military duty. Sir, i vention, and is I believe, as complete as the utmost have seen young men of sixteen aird seventeen, hold stretch of human sagacity can make it. Not only so ing commissions-in the army of the United States, and sir, but at a large and respectable meeting of several I believe that one of the Presidents of the United States, military gentlemen of this city, the report was read, held a commission in the regular army. I hope that 687 I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FFBRUARY 21. Defiance, Gregg, Greesbecl(,Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, HeIIderion, Hitclcoci (if Geauga, luml)hreville, Hun t,,r, Kennon, Kirkwood, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, Mano,i Mason. Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Nor ris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Qiiigley, Rianney, Reemeliii, Rail, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Aug'aize, Sellers, Smith of Wyasdot, Stanbery, 3tebbins, Stickniey, Stidger, Strubl, Swan, Swilft, l'hompson of Shelby, Tiomnipson ot Stark, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, Wood bury aind President. —63 NAYS. —Messrs. Bates, Cook, Cti ri y, Graham. Green of Ross, Hulmnes, lHolt, ffootinan, Hunt, Jones, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, l1eat,better, Mitchell, McCloud, Nash, Perkins, Ri((ile, Smnith of Higllland, Sminth of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Taylor and Worthi ngton. -25. So the demand for the previous question was sustainlad. The question then being on ordering the report to be engrossed. Mr. MORRIS demandled the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 57, inays 30, as fol. lows: YEAs.-Messrs. Andrews, Archbol(i, Barbee, Blair, Brown of Athenis, Chleey, Dorsey, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greeue of Defi,ince, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, [Henderson, Hiltchlcock of Geang-, Holmes, Holt, Hun,iph.reville, Ilunt, Hunter, Kennon, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidiey, Loudon, Manon. Mason, MitchelI, Morehead, McCortnick, Ortotn, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ratiney, Reeme-lii, Riddile. Roll, Sawyer, Sellers. Stanbei y,Stlick ey, Struble, Swan, Thompson of Shelby, Thrompson)i of Stark,Way, Wilson, Woomlbuiry, WVorthinigton and President —57. NAYS.-Messrs. Barnet of Montgonmery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bliakensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cook, Curry, Graham, Green of Ross, Jones, King, Larsh, Leaobetter, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Otis, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smnithl of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Swift, Taylor and Vance of Btutler.-30. So the report was ordered to be engrossed; And on motion, ordered to be read a third time on Saturday the 222nd in,st. On montion of Mr. RIDDLE, the Convention to o k up the Report of the Committee on Preamble and Bill of Rights with pending amendments. TThe question being on agreeing to the a mendment recomr,ended by the Commiiittee to-wit: In s.etion 2, strike out the following words, "and no special privileges or immunities shall ever be granted injurious to the public, and which cannot reaso nably be enjoyed by all." Mr. SAWYER moved a call of the Convention, whiich was ordered and Messrs. Bennett, Case of Hocking, Case of Lickling, Clark, Cutler, Ewart, Gray, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Horton, Johnson, King, Towiishend, Vance of Champaign, Warren and Williams were found absent. On nmotiotn of Mr. SAWYER all further proceedings under the call were dispensed with. The question then being on the amendment. :Mr. NSASH. The objection to the section is that gentlemen do not understand it alike, and the result will be that there will always remain this difficulty, until it receives a judicial construcltionl from the coulrts. Besides this it leaves to the courts of the State a mnost unlimited discretion. Theyr ares in the first place, vhenever a law granting any privilege or franchise ~omes before theml, to decide whether it is an exclusive privilege, andl then whtll1her being an exclulsive Drivilet~e, it- is injurious to the pullbic. and then, whether it can be reasonably enjoyed by all. All the amendment will not prevail, bult that on the other h and, tle section will be so fixed, as to comply with the )rovision s ol the Constitutiov tad lotws of the U. - ted Strikes. T his Tis s the only consistent course that we can puri.,u at9,er the circumstances. Thei,~ se -:.an th en being ol the amendment of Mr. L.ADBE e -rm.d.. th,e same was (ias dreed to. Thle qa, ie ti lelol the b eing o the amen lldm ent of Mr. WORTH INGTON, Mr. L[DEY demanded a division of the question. The question then being on striking out, the same was disagreed to. Mr. BARNE IT of Preble, moved to amend seection fiv e, by slrilg out the w ords "protectiona and," which was disagreed to. The sa men gentleman mov ed far ther to amend the same section, by striking out the w ords, "as Pemady as be deernd exptdient;" wh ich was d isagreed to. Mr. IAMILTON then rmoved to strike out the whole bill, and to insert il lieu thereof, as follows: "Thie Gene (ral Assemlly may, fron time to time, pass sueil laws in relation to the enrolmeet and orgalgizatio3 of I n, militia, as they may thifk proper." Mr. HUMIPHREVILLE demanded a division of the questioni. The question then being on striking out, the same was disag;ree.d to: Mr. REEMVELIN then moved that the committee rise and report, which was agreed to, and the corn. mittee rose, and the Chairman reported that the coinmittee had had under consideration, the report of the standing comnmittee on th-e militia, and reported the same back vwithoutamenidment. The question then being on ordering the report-to be engrossed. Mr REEMELIN moved the previous question. The question then being, shall the main question be now put. Mr. TAYLOR moved, that the report be laid on the table. On wiichi motion, Mr. TAYLOR demanded the yeas and nafiys, wlhich were ordered, and resulted-yeas 13; navys 71, as follows: YEAs —-Mlessrs. Bates, Cook, Curry, Hamilton, Holt, Leadbettet, Nash, Perkins, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stantton, Swift and Taylor-13. NAYS-Messrs. A ndrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barntet cf Monitgomerv, Bariiett of Preblle, Blair, Blickensilprfer, BiAowi of Atl enls, Cahill, Clamtibers, Chaney, Col. lins, Dorsey, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Green, of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henilerson, Ilitcheoak of Geauga, Holmes, Hootnian, Humphreville, Hutt, Hlunter, Jones, Ketinon, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Lotdon, Maion, Masoi), Mitchlell, Morehead, Morris, Me,Clouid, McCortmick, Norris, Orlon, Otis, Patterson, Quigle y, Reemelin, Riiddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrisotn, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stebbiis, Stilwell, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Vvi!son, Woodbury, Worthington and President-71. So the convention refused to lay the report on the table. The question then being "shaol the main question be now p1lt?" Mr. CUR'LRY demanded the veas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 63, nays 95, as follows: weee a rnigaypiieeo rnhs YFAS.- Vessrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Lolotgtomcry, Bairnett of Preblle,, Blair, Blickenssderfer, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Dorsey, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of 688 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-F,IDAY, FEBRUARY 21. these questions of mere opinion are left to be settled by the mere discretion of the judges of the courts of the State. Is any gentlemanii here willing to place in any court a discretion so enormous and dangerous as under this section tnay be assumed by the courts? Now, as I understand the limit of the powers conferred by the section, I have no objection to it; but it is well known that other gentlemen understand it differently, and we can give no assurance here as to the construction hereafter, and I am not willing to repose in any court; so large a discretion. It may interfere with the powers of the Legislature in a great variety of cases. It may interfere with the law regarding taxation. Is not an exemption from taxation a thing that cannot be enjoyed by all? Is not the licence of a peddler or an auctioneer, a thing that cannot be eitjoyed by all? Mr. ARCHIBOLD. Yes but itis not injurious. Mr. NASI-1. Who knows that? The courts may think otherwise. That opinion is now hlolden by several gentle-men upon thisfloor. One court may hold one opinion. and another another opinion, ands we shall have differences of opinion and conflicting decisions. I think that these matters are not within the rule, but others think otherwise. Therefore I say that if gentlemen desire to cut off all grants of special privileges, let tlhemn say so at otice, n 1 not leave it to any court to say what is its own private opinion in regard to them, with the power to transform that opinioIn into the law of the land. Mr. McCORMI(CK moved to amend the words proposed to be stricken out, by striking out from them all after the word "Granted," to wit, by striking out the following: "Injurious to the public, and which cannot reasonably be enjoyed by all." The question then being on the amendment of Mr. MCCORM aCe. Mr. McCOR-MICK. I have made this motion, because I have never liked the provision as it stands. If it is left as it is, special privileges may yet be granted by the Legislature. The irresistible inference to be drawn fromn the language of the section is that the Legislatuire mav and does possess the power to grant privileges that are injurious to the public, upon the supposition that although injurious, they are such as nay be enjoyed by all. Let them be such as every one inav enj(y, and it matters not how injurious they may be, they are fully within the Legislature competency. Such a power vwould be too dangerous to con for even constructively; and rather than such an implication should arise, I have offered this amendment. Mr. ARCLIBOLI). It would be putting language to the torture to untderstand the prIopositionI as it is understood by the gentleman fromfn Adams, (Mr. McCoRMICK).'I'he gentleman, if he will think a moment, will remeniier that that which may be ernjoyed by all, cannot be injurious to the public. The word " all" comprises the very public which he thinks may be in-. jured by the granlt. Eiijoyrieniit also pre-supposes benefit; and if all enjoy, who is there to be iniijured? Again; there are i,Jinuities which cannot be enjoyed by all, aud which yet are not injurious to the public. To be ajudge, a shleriff. or a county clerk, is an immunity, and one that cannot be enjoyed by all. But is it injurious to the public? Would the gentleman cat off these, and thus ill effect provide that no man shall hereafter exercise, caimill, or perform the duties of the offices of sheriff, fcJoroner, constable, or judge? Butthe object of this amnendmnent is to cut off the ranting of acts of iuecorporatioa to improvement companies, upon the groun:J that such acts operate to bells efit one mrlor than anlother. Now 1 protest against that dog ill the manageir spirit which permnits itself'to go against that which is of real benefit to the public, because it benefits some others more than themselves. If th e constructlou of lines of public improvement is for the public good, it is no reason against them that e ae the y are the caus e of some peculiar benefits to certain in dividuals. Trhe greate st good of the greatest iu m ber can n ot always be secured without securing some peculiar good to some one or mioret of the number; but does that farmish aly reasoii why the greatest good should not be sought? Mr. McOlt'M,JICK. The proposition of the gen tlemar from Monroe, (Mr. ARCHB OLD,) i s not a fair proposition. There shall be no special privile,gtd granted which are injurious to the public, and which may not be reasonably enj oyed by all. I assert t hat under this prov isio n, th e Gen eral Assemblv may grant special privilege s as heretofore. Does the Conivention desire that such shall be tihe case? Does it desire to p erpetuate and n ot only to perpetuate, but to sanction the monstrous abuses!hfat have growll out of the leg islation ofdast years? Yet under the proposition of the gentleman from Monroe, this evil, so glaring, and so much complained of, cannot be remedied; and in failing to provide a remedy, we shall have failed to perform one of the most important oL the duties ex pected at our hands. Mr. MITCHELL. I like the proposition of the g~ n tleman fronm Adams, because it speaks the truth in a manner at once clear and distinct. I must confess that the doctrine, that the end and purpose for which governments were established is to grant special privi reges and imniiiiitie's to individuals anid cmpanies has already puzzled me. I know that it is the opin ion of some, that the peculiar object for which gov ernments are organized, is to dispense these special privileges. The doctrine is false, sir. It is the dc trine of the dark ages of the past. It originated with the doctrine of the divine right of Kings. The sovereign under that system is the source from which springs and flows all power and all privilege. Now I am in favor of doing something that shalldeclare a different doctrine. and set forth tke true principle upon which a republican government is based -thatthe great body of rights resides ill the people, and that not one of them can be transferred, given up or destroved except by the act of the people themselves. 14r. HlTCHCOCK of Geauga, thought that the amendment of the committee, as an abstract Ip-oposition, was correct. No special privileges or irnmunities shall be granted that are injurious to the public or which cannot reasonably be enjoyed by all. I think the declaration correct enough if it were inserted in the proper place. But as it is amended by the proposition of the gentleman from Adanmis, (Mr. MoCOILMICK,) it effects the darling object of gentlemento prevent the creation of any more corporations in the State. Mr. STANBERY. I cannot see the reason why such a difference of opinion should exist between myself and the gentleman from Geatiga, (Mr. HITCIIcocK.) I look upon the difference between, ought not, and shall not, as a very importanit one in that cornnection. To say that the Legislature shall not pass any retroactive law, is a very different thing from saying that it ought not to do so. At any rate, the section will be understood as a limlitationl of the Legislative power, and the question for the courts to decide will be whether the Legislature has ov er~stepped the boundaries of its power or not. It wzill, in fa.ct, leave to the courts to dlecidfe, not whether the law;8 opposed to any especial provision of the constitution. bult whether it is, in general expedient, wholeso~me and proper. Now, I will never, highly as I esteem and respect the integrity and wisdom of the courts of justice, vote 689 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FERRUARY 21. tOn motion of Mr. LARWILL, the Convention took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. 2,2 O'CLOCK, P. M. e The question pending, being on the amendment prom. posed by Mr. RANNEY, to wit: To insert before the words, "and no," the following words, and to alter, re, peal -r abolish any law hereafter created by it. Ma r. HAWKINS said, this proposition reminded him of the proposition for drain.ing the black swamp, to - which one of the members of a western Legislature, some years ago, was reported to have been very much s devoted. The member had brought up his proposition i day after day, and time after time, during the session, - and it had been as often voted down; till at last, in the , very close of the session, when a resolution was offer ed complimentary to the speaker, he sprang to his feet, r anda moved to amrnend, by adding "five hundred dollars for draining the black swamp " [Laughter.] I mnight be willing sir, for the adoption of a rule, al lowing the consideration of this subject, to come lip at t the close of the consideration of every proposition; for, , members would then know when to look for it. and be - prepared to treat it as it ought to be treated; unless, by possibility, the proposition might be passed when the house was thin; and then such a th'ng would involve a s motion to reconsider and discussion upon its merits to - the hearts content of all the friends of repeal. Mr. SAWYER suggested that this proposition had respect onlv to prospective repeal. Mr. HAWKINS. It was a new combination of - principles. With regard to the prospective repeal, In - its proper place, and at the proper time, he would vote for it. And further, if legal gentlemen of this m body would assure him that it might be done without L conflicting with the constitution of the United States, - he would vote for the doctrine of repeal extending into all the past. But because he desired to avoid putting into this constitution any thing that would be a nullity -any thing that would cause it to stand in future years, like an old oak or hemlock, with its upper limbs , all bent and broken-it was for this reason, that he had heretofore voted as he had upon this question. Mr. RANNEY, The gentleman from Morgan, as well as my friend from Franklin, misunderstands the , amendment. The original'ection has respect to the , rights of the people. It goes on to declare, that the - people have the right to alter, abolish or reform their government as they please; and then I propose to add this further clause; that they have the right to alter, repeal, or abolish, any law which the government may enact hereafter. That is just all there is of both the section and the amendment; and the one follows as a necessary consequence of the other. I have gone for the right to repeal all laws which have been heretofore enacted; as well as those which may be hereafter. But the decision of the convention has been against me in this, and I do not propose to get up that question here again. But we have been sitting here day after day for the purpose of making a constitution; and sometimes we have been told that the legislature have bound up our hands-that they have passed such and such laws which our authority cannot contravene; and it was hut yesterday that we had a large vote against the right of equal taxation upon all property in the State, because of a previous legislative provision upon that s ubj ect. Now aln I desire to effect by this amendment, is, to assure, the people of Ohio that, if ever they should assemble again in convention to form another new constitution, or if they should be called upon to vote to transfer this question of the policy, expediency and prosperity of the laws, frotn the one hundred and eight men who compose the General Assembly. to the four who compose the supreme judiciary of the State Yet this is the object of the section; and if it does not mean -this, it means nothing at all. Mr. REEMELIN. I desire to say that this is the most conservative body that ever sat in the State We, the friends of the people, have been forced tc give away and away, and the more we have given t he mo re has be en asked, u ntil ther e is scarcelya vestige of the rights of the people left. We shoul not have commenced by giving an inch, fo r by so do int wee are in danger in losing all. Mr. SWAN. If the most apparent and obvious construction is given to the amendment recommended be the commrittee, it places it in the hands of the joe diciary to judge of and decide upon the correctness of the policy that dictated the wpassage o f every law of the State, a nd to d eclare th ose laws, binding, of void, as they are cons i stent, or inconsistent, with the views of the public interest as entertained by the judge. Now I think tha~ banks are injurious to the public, and I believe banking to be a business thal cannot be enjoyed by all. With this view of the law if I were upon the bench, and anv question came before me, in which the rights of a bank were drawn in question, I should deem it my duty to decide that a bank charter is unconstitutional. Now I think thi: should be a rule for the legislative and not for the judiciary department. If we open these questions to the courts instead of the General Assembly, the whole policy of the State will be disturbed. Mr. ARC,.HBOLD. I should be opposed to this provision, if I believed the construction of the gentle man from Franklin, (Mr. SWAN,) to be correct. If any man is radically opposed to any mingling of the legislative and judicial powers, that man is myself. But I am not convinced by the arguments of the gentleman from Franklin. No court would dare to decide upon the mere expediency of laws. The question then being.on the amendment of Mr. M'CORMICK. Mr. McCORMICK demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 49, nays 45, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, H-Iunt, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Peek, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney Reemelin, Riddle, Roll., Sawyer, Scott of' Harrisone Scott of Atiglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickniey, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, and President-49. NAYS —Mvessrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Bar. net of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Chaney. Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Florence, Gillett, Grahamn, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hawkins, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Humphreville, Hunter, Jones, Kennon, Larwill, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, Me-Cloud, Nash, Otis Patterson, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanlton, Stilwell, Vanceof Butler, and Worthington —-45. So the amendment was adopted. Thle question then being on the amendment, as amended. Mr. RANNEY moved to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out, by inserting before the words'and no," the following words, "sand to alter, repeal or ~ abolish any law hereafter created by it. 693 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRtDAY, FEBRuARY 21. If the gentleman from Trumbull would withdrtw his amendment I would offer something like this. I would move to ameid the section by inserting after the word granted these words, "which may not be resumed or revoked by the same power which granted them un der this constitut:on. Now there is a plain, straight forward expression of the doctrine of prospective repeal. And for that I am .willing to vote,'or two reasons. First, because itern,bodies precisely the substance of the doctrine of the amendment of the gentleman from Trumbull; and secondly, because it does not take away from the legislature the power to grant charters of incorporation under general laws, for such purposes as they may deem exIedielit and necessary for the good of the State. I repeat, sir, that I do not intend to allow myself to be forced into the support of any proposition here, which shall take away from the legislature the power ofgranting such acts of incorporation. But I am willing to vote, that such charters may be granted, with the express understanding and reservation, that the Sa power which granted them may, at any time, resume or revoke them. And, with such a clause as that, I am perfectly willing to vote for this section. Now these words which stand at the close of this section, to wit: "no special privileges or immunities shall ever be granted"-I recollect where they came from. I remember them as part and parcel of a certain amendment which was made to lake the place of an addition to this section introduced by the gentleman from Guernsey, tMr. LAWRENCF..] After the amendment of the gentleman from Guernsey, (which I was in favor of,) was stricken out, I voted for this amendmeat of the gentleman from Monroe, but at the same tinme, I was not satisfied with it; but still I voted for it, because I considered, that, under the circumstaences, it was perhaps the best thing we could get. But now we have come in here this morning and stricken out an important part of this a,mendment, which makes it a totally different proposition from that originally intended. Instead of allowing it to remain expressive of the doctrine of repeal i n any shape or form, it makes it expressive of a determaination to take away from the General Assembly the power of granting charters of incorporation, and that' precisely what I am unwilling to do. I hold the power of graniting charters of incorporation to be a valuable power; and while I am willing to admit, that it is a power which may be, and which has been very much abused, I hold that it is a power which ough,t to be, and which may be, exercised for the good of the people, if reta in ed amongst the powers of legislation. Should we then in order to prevent an improper use of this power, prohibit its exercise altogethier? Or should we not rather prescribe that the same power which has granted any special privilege may also revoke that privilege. I say, let us do that. Let us make that plain, unequivocal declaration, and that is precisely what I have intended to express in my amendment. Mr. RANNEY asked and obtained leave to withdraw his amendment. Affirmative 42; negative 41. The question then being on the amendment proposed by the committee, Mr. RANNEY moved to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out by adding after the word "granted" the following: "that may not be altered, revoked or repealed by the General Assembly.": M\r. GROESBECK. I think it very proper that we should understand tile meaning of these words before voting upon them; and according to my understanding, taken in the connection in which they have been submitted, these words amount to just nlothing at adl, and I would not give one snap of my finger for thse doe amendments, through the General Assembly, -they -shall not be told that the legislature have, by law, some how or other bound up their hands so that they cannot do justice to themselves or to posterity. Mr. OTIS. I would ask tile gentleman from Trumbull to explain what it was he meant when he said it was his desire, that the people in convention hereafter might hav te the right to do thus and so. Mr. RANNEY. I will an swe r the gentleman by reading the whole section as it stands, with the amendment, which I have proposed. [Reads.] In convention the people may exercise their power over the constitutio n in various ways; and the y may vote upon isolated amendments by the suggestion of the L egis lature. An d I affirm that this section, as I propose to amend it, accords strictl y with the inherent rights of the people. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. 1 have no objections to the ae dmendment of the gentleman from Trumbull, and I intend to v ote fol i t. I sh ould have voted for the section as originally pres ented, with the clause which has b e en stricken out. It is true, th at, on yesterday, we asserted the principle of prospective repeal, in anotherplace; but I would be willing to assert it again and again every day, as long as we shall remain here. Mr. DORSEY. I feel anxious, sir, to vote for the proposition of the gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) because I believe it contains sound doctrine. At the same time I do not feel disposed to vote for it precisely in the shape, or more particularly in the connection, in which it stands in this section. It comes in before a declaration to which I wish to have something added, in order to make it express what I wish it to express; or rather, to keep it from expressing what I do not wish to have expressed in this constitution. The amendment of the gentleman from Trumbull provides what I believe is according to the wish of both sides of the house; viz: that the Legislature has the power to alter, abolish or repeal any law hereafter to be created. But then there comes in a clause that no special privilege shall ever be granted. And I am not willing to vote for that declaration, unless I can have something appended to it which will prevent it from acting injuriously. I hold that this declaration would put a stop to the formation of all incorporated companies for the construction of turnpikes, plankroads, railroads, or anything of the kind within the boundaries of the State of Ohio. Now I am not prepared to go that far. I do not intend to go that far; nor do I intend that the gentleman shall place me in a false position, by inducing me to vote for a proposition going to that extent. But, as I have before said, I wish to vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Trumbull. I wish to see it embodied in the constitution, for I do not believe that we have yet adopted fully the principle which it embraces. But in order to secure my vote it must be incorporated in such a way as not to place me in a fa!se position. I could wish that the gentleman would be willing to withdraw his amendment; for if he would do so I would offer an amendmaet in its place, which I believe would answer the purpose which he has in view, whilst it would express with more fairness, the opinions of those who think as I do upon this floor. I have been anxious to insert a plain ants unequivocal declaration of the power of repeal both prospective and; retrospective,withoust restriction, but I have give up all hope of being enabled to embody such a principle in this constitution, arid nowF I wish to bring up a fair test as to how far gentleu en are willing to go in the support of the principle of prospective repeal only. 45 691. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRInAY, FsBRURAY 21. tween charters now in existence and those hereafter granted. I know the questioi as to the power of re peal is different. But the question of the justice of making coinpensation for the corporate property, is the same. Suppose a charter for a bridge company is granted this year, with the right to take toll for 20 years, and another next year for the same term. Both are repealed. Is there any justice in making compensation for the franchise, in one case, and not in tihe other. I know it is said that in one case the charter is accepted, and the money spent with the knowledge, that the General Assembly have reserved the right of repeal. But I also know that no one would accept such a charter and invest money upon the faith of it, without hlie sup. posed he ha(l good reason to believe that the grant was made in good faith, and that the right of repeal would not be captiously exercised, or upon terms which would not be just and equitable, so long as the charter was not violated by the corporators. And let it also be borne in mind, that there is no necessity for exercising the repealing power to get rid of a charter that has been violated. Tie courts are the proper tribunals to deal with corporations as well as individuals who have broken the laws. I did suppose while this terrible COIItest about repeal was going on, that we were dealing with a practical question, that some results or consequences were to follow its derision. But in this it seems I was mistaken. We have been fighting a shadow-tilting with a windmill. The deniocracy of the state has been agitated from its centre to its circumference. My friend fromn Butler has been at home for fresh instructions. Mr President, permit me to say, with the utmost deference, that this whole matter, in. my judgrment has turned out to be a most magnificent humbug, and that we have been engaged in a very small business. Mr. OR,TON moved the previous question desiring that it should apply only to the pending section. The PRESIDENT said, as this was the only amendment to the bill. the previous question would reach to the fiial passage. The question then being "shall the main question be now put. Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted yeas 50, nays 42, as follows: Y EAs-Messrs. Barnettof Preble, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey,Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holtnmes, Hootman, Humphireville, Hniit, Hunter, Jones, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley. Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stroble, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and Pre,sident-50. NAYS-MesslIs Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Ewart, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Holt, Kennon, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Peck, Ranney, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan, Taylor, Vance of Butler, Williams an d Worth ing ton w-42. So the demand for the previous question Ivan sustained. The question then being on agreeing to the amendmenltof Mr. STILWELL 4 Mr. BLAIR demanded tile yeas and nays) which were ordered, and resulted yeas 34, nays 58 —as follows: trine of repeal, as expressed here, if my construction of the amendment be correct. Allow me to state my construction by way of illustratiou. Suppose, if you please, we go to t he Leg islature, the e ere w may be a large whig maajority-(I dislike to refe te t o parties bv nam e, but I hope the convention will indulge me for the sake of illustration,) and suppose the doctrine to be asserted in thhe language we have he re, and apply for a gran t of incorporation; and suppose that a c harter of Incor poration is granted. The general law permitting the legislature to prescribe term s and c onditionn;, w ould they not be likely, upon our application, to make one of those conditions o f tr epea) to be a obligation on the part of th e St ate of Ohio to make us good in damages? In other words, the whig legislature would interpret the general law one way; that is, they would assert terms and conditions of repeal precisely up- on th e principle of indemnity which they. are now claiming for existing charters. they claimn, now, that up on the repeal of a franchise that it,s hould be paid for, so as to make the party whole. And that is just the do ctr ine which I hold up. on this subject, as the law now exists. I say that you can repeal now only upon that principle. Now I say that this provision gives the power of asserting all the advantages of repeal for future corporations-the. power of inserting the same terms and conditions, which gentleman upon the other side claim for existing corporations. And does any man suppose that they will not exercise it? Mr. STANTON. I congratulate the gentleman from Hamilton over the way, [Mr. REEMFLI.,] and the genitleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNEY,] that after a most protracted and bitter struggleon this longcontested question of repeal, they have triumphed most magnificently. And thev have not only succeeded in reclaiming their fugitive brethren, who sometimes call themselves the "John Rogers familv" and sometimes the "twelve apostles." But chey have secured at least an equal number on this side of the chamber. lF'or if there is any practical difference between the proposition first adopted by a vote of two to one and the celebrated repeal proposition which has been disc.ussed at least thirty days, and voted down five times; it is one which I am not able to comprehend. I know that it is said, that we have. no power to re peal charters heretofore granted, which I most cheerfully admit. But, I also know that these protracted discussions, have not been upon a simple proposition to repeal past charters, but upon a proviso to secure the corporate property to the stockholders. The controversy has not been so much whether the General Assembly should have the power to repeal, but whether the repeal should be absolute or conditional. Now it has always seemed to me that if a charter is a contract, that a conditional repeal is just as much a breach of it, as an absolute one, though the damage may be less. But those who hold that a charter is a contract, all agree that we have no power over charters heretofore granted, and that any provision we may insert in this Constitution will be it nullity It can do no harm therefore. It is therefore so far as we are concerned a mere abstraction, nothing that we can do will have any practical results. But now we have before us a practical question, something tangible, that we have control over. And now where we propose to give some security for the corporate property, onl the repeal of thle charter, it is supposed lo be a matter of no sort of consequence. We have spent all our energies on an abstraction, and when a practical question is presented, we surrender it without a struggle. The truth ix that justice sad common sense makes no distinction, be 69.-3 OHIO CONVENT'FION DEBATES-Fr,IDAY, FEBRUARY 21. Ewart, Ewing Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Greene ofDefiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitch. cock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humplireville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, KennonI, Kirkwood, Law rence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, IManon, Mason, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reenmelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyan. dot, Stebbins, Stickney, Strubble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, ThomFson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President —66. HNAYs —Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry. Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan,Larsh, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Larsh, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger and Williamns.-27. So the Report was passed. On motion, the Report was referred to the standing committee on Revision, Enrollment and Arrange ient. Mr. GREEN of Ross, now said: We have had glory enough for one day, as I think. The "immortal twelve" have been "growing beautifully less,"'till they have now, at last, almost entirely disappeared in the glory of the achievemnents of this day. I therefore move that the Convention do now adj'ourn. But Mr. G. withdrew the motion fbr Mr. LAWRENCE, who presented the following written communication and request, of the gentleman from Coshocton, (Mr. JOHNsON,) which request was granted by unanimous consent: COL. MICDILL, President Conistituttional Convention: On the 19th inist., I voted under a misapprehension of the true question, upon the amendment of the gentleman frorm Trumbull,'Mr. RANNEY,) to section 4 of the Report of tihe conmmittee on Corporations other than Banking. The amiendl menit was to insert the words "'oow existing or hereafter created" in said,ection. After the vote was given, I ascertai,ned that I had voted contrary to my wishes, but concluded to wait until morning and then have my vote changed; next morning I was unable to leave my room on account of illness, and am yet uniable. I wish to have myself righted before the official report of our proceedings are pub ished', and therefore asik the favor of the Convention to permit me in this manner to change my vote from flay to yea. YEAS.-Messrs. Andre ws, Barb ee, Bar net of Mont gomnery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Col lings. Curry, a, Ewart, Gilltt, Graham, Green, of Ross, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hunter, Larsh, Ma son, Morehead, M orris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Sc ott of Harrison, Smith of H Iighland, Smith of War2 red, Stanbery, Stanlton, Stilwell, William, s and Wor thington-34. NAvs.-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill. Chaney, Cook. Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, F orbes, G ree n e of Defi ance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkinls, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, oota, o Humphireville, Hunt, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lead better, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, Norris, Or tor,, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Raloney, Reemelin, Riddle, Raell, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Stru ble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butter, Way, Wilson, Woo sbury and President —58. So the amendment was rejected. The questi on t hen b eing on the amendment of the oommnittee, as amended, to wit: In s ection two strike out the following words: "and no special privileges or immunities shall ever be grante d tha t may not bc altered, revoked or repealed by the General Assembly." Mr. JONES demanded the yeas and rnas, which were ordered, a nd resulted yeas s34, nasys 58-as fo l - lows: YEAS.-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Bornet of Montgomery, Barnett of Proble, Bates, Blickenisderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry, Ewart, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hunter, Larshi, M]Vason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smitlh of Warren, Stanibery, Stanton, Stilweil, Stidger, Sv ift and Williams-34. NAYs. —Messrs. Andrews, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greel.e of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudoni, Manon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyanidot, Sticknpy, Struble, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-58. So the Convention refused to strike out the clause. The question then being on the passage of the Report, Mr. VANCE of Butler desired to recommit with instructions. The PRESIEENT. The Chair supposes that such a motion is put of order, as we are still under the influence of the previous question. The Chair has before stated that such would be the effect of the previous question. Mr. VANCE. I know that such was the expression of the opinion of the Chair, but I thought that was not the order. The PRESIDENT. That might be the case, and the genltleman had then a perfect tight to appeal from the decision of the Chair. But now he has neither the right to appeal, nor to complain of the decision. Mr. HOLMIES demanded the yeas and nays, upon thfe final passage of tihe report, which were ordered, and resulted —yeas 66, nays 27, as follows: YEAs —Messr's. Andrews, Archbold, Blair, Brown of Athens, Gahil10 Chaney, (Colligs~ Cook, Dorsey, 1 FRANYI,I.i,T 1tousi., Feb. 21, 1851. Mr. LAWRENCE now renewed the motion to adjourn, but gave way for Mr. HOLMES, who de sired to ask the Convention to indulg,e him in a motion to adjourn till Monday morning, in order to give the committee on apportioieient, which consisted of twenty-one members, an opportunity of sitting on to-morrow. The business before them would require them to remain in session the w,hole day. Mr. HOLMES then moved that the Convention adjourn till MonLda y morning, 9 o'clock. On which motion, Mr. REEMELIN demanded the yeas and niays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 57, nays 34, as follows: YEAS-MYssrs. Andrews. Archbold, Barbee, Blai r Wlickelsderfer, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Curry, Ewar-t, Grahamn, Greene of Defiance, Green of Rose, Hamilton, Hard, Hitchcock of Geau, ga, Holmes, Holt, Hootmain, Hu-mphreville, HuntJones, K(-nn n, Kirkwoord, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Loudon, Mitchell, Morehead, Mor, ris, Nash, Norris, Orton, Peck, Quigley, Riddle, RollSawver, Sellers, Smith of Hfighlatnd, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stickney, Struble, Swani, Swift, Taylor, Thonmpson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Williarmsa, Wilson, Wortlington and President-57. 693 P,espectfully, JOI-IN JOHNSON. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MoNDAY, FEBRUARY 24. Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones., Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mason, Mitchell, McCloud, Patterson, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby and Thompson of Stark-45. NAYS-Messrs. Bennet t, Br own o f Carroll, Cahill, Cha m bers, Cook, Ewart, Ewing, Gree ne of Defiance, Hamilt on, Hawkins, Hitc hcock of Geauga, Hunter, Kennon, Lawrence, Manon, M orehead, McCormicl, Nash, Orton, Peck, Perkins, Ranney, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Wyandot, Stilwell, Sticktn,ey, Swift, Way, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-33. So the motion fo r a call of the Co nvention was adopted. A call being ordered, Messrs. Blair, Case of Hoc king, Case of Licking, Collings, Curry, Cutler, Florence, Gillett, Gray, Hard, Ha rlan, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga Hr onsn,Ho rton, Johnson, King, Lonudo, Norris Roll, Smith of Warre n, Struble, S wan, Townslhend, Va n ce of Butler and Vance of Champai gn, were found absent. O0X motion, Messrs. Case of Ho cking, Case o f Licking, Coil ings, Gi llett, H ard and Johnson, were severally excused. Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, moved that all further proceedings under the call be now dispensed with; which was agreed to. The question then being, "shall th e main question be now put," Mr. ORTON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 46, nays 36, as follows: YEAS.- Andrews, B arnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing Forbes, Green e of D e fiance, Hamilton, Hawkins,Holt, Huiinphreville,Hunt, Hunter, Lidey, Mahno, Mason, Mitchlell, Morehead, Mc Clou d, M cCormick, Na sh, Orton, Peck, Perkins, Ran,i ey, Scott of Harrison n, Sn ith o f Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Swif t, Thompson of Stark, Way, Wil liams, Wilson, Woodbury and President.6. NAYS.-Messrs. Archbold, Bates, Graham, Gree n of Ross, Gregg, Groesbe ck, Henlde r.son, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hootman, Jones, Kennon, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Morris, Otis, Patterson, Quigley Reemnelili, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highlanid, Stanber-y Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Shel by, Warren and Worthington.-36. So the demand for the previous question was sus tained. The question then being on the passage of the Re port, Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and nays which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 45, naysr 9 as follows: YEAs. —-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickens derfer, Brown of Athens, Chambers, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Mahou, Mason, Morehead, Morris, Mc~loud, MceCormick, Nash, Or ton, Otis, Perkinls, Scott of Harriso~n, Smith of Wy andot, Stanlton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Swift, Way, Williams, Woodbury and Worthington. 5. NAyrs-Meessrs A~rchbold, Brown of Camxoll, Ca hill, Chaney, Forbes, Graham, Green of Ross, Greg, Groesbeck, }Ienderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman,Jon~es, KEennon, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey,]/itch. NAYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of' Preble, Bates, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hawkins, Hend-erson, Hunter, Lidey, Manon, Mason, McCloud, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stallton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stidger, Thompson of Shelby, and Way-34. So the Convention adjourned until Monday morning next at nine o'clock. ONE.HUNDRED AND TWENTY-SECOND DAY, MONDAY, Feb. 24, 1851. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by Rev. Mr. Robinson. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE presented a petition from Thomas Rowe of Medina county, praying that a clause be inserted in the new constitution, prohibiting Public Stocks from being made a basis for Banking; which on motion was laid on the table. Mr. McCORMICK from the select committee, on the subject of retailing ardent spirits, to which had been recommitted report number one, of tho committee on that subject, r ported the same back without amendment, and recommended its passage. REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SUBJECT OF RETAILING ARDENT SPIRITS. "No license to traffic in intoxicating liquors shall hereafter be granted in this State, but tihe General As. sembly may by law provide against the evils resulting therefrom." The question being on the passage of the report. Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being "shall the main question be now put." Mr. REEMELIN moved to lay the report on the table. On which motion, Mr. MANON demanded theyeas and nlays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 36, nays 44, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Clark, Farr, Grahatm, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman, Jones, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Morris, Patterson, Quiigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highlland, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Wairren and President -36. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Chaney, Cook, Ewart, Ewing, Forbes, Greene of Defianice, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Humiphreville, Hunit, Hunter, Kennon, Larsh, I~awrence, Leech, Manon, Mason, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Or ton, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Wy andot, Stanton, Stilwell, Stickney, Swift, Way, Wil liams, Wilson, Woodbury and Wortlington-44. So the motion to lay the Report on the table was rejected. The question then being, shall the main question be now put, He Mr. REEMELIN moved a call of the Convention. On which motion Mr. MANON demanded the veas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 45, nays 33, as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of -Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderf er, Brown of Athens, Chaney, Clark, Farr, Forbes, Green of RossW;. Gregg, Groesbeck, Henderson, Holme I 694 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- MONDAY, FEBRUARY 24. , was, until scarcely one of its original features can be refcognized, they still cling to that feature, as if it were fthe sole beauty of the plan, instead of being as it is, a 1 disfigurement. In the first place, the report was sadly crippled, by l reducing the terms of the judges; then again, Iby strik- ing out the provision fixing the minimum of the sala ries of the judges, and so on, until so to speak, it has been emasculated; the "splendid District Court," has been converted to a County Circuit Court, no one fea-ture is left in its original form. I tell gentlemen that if they will only examine it, they will discover, that - they have made the district precisely what thesupreme court is at present. The only difference is, that there is substituted in the place of one of the supreme judges, two of the common pleas, and this court is to be held at ; least once annually, in every county of this State. i True, the General Assembly may, when all the people of the district desire it, provide that this district court may be held in three or more places in such district. But if gentlemen suppose this will ever bedone, I think they deceive themselves. I venture the prediction, it , will never be done. The great idea of bringing justice to every man's door, will forever prevent it. Gentle men, then, by surrendering to this modification of their plan, have given up the only feature of their plan having anything novel in it. "Their splendid court" is gone, and in its room, we are to have, in fact, the present system. When first reported by the committee, the plan pro vided for four judges of the supreme court, and twen.e ty-seven judges of the common pleas. This, it was affirmed, would be a force amply sufficient to carry the district court into every county in the State. But within the last ten days, it has again been returned to us from their hands, with another judge added to the supreme bench. Now I must be allowed to say, that I cannot but distrust the calculations of gentlemen in regard to the judicial force necessary for the public ser vice, when they thus acknowledge themselves to doubt the practicability of the scheme as originally reported. I took occasion the other day to remark, that the only distinctive difference between the plan of the standing committee as at present amended, and that of the select committee, related to the matter of appeals of questions of fact to the higher tribunal. The report of the select committee, provided for a return of the old system, which admitted of a second trial by jury. So long as that practice existed, no complaint was ever made. The unfortunate restrictions in our present constitution, made the system it provided, too small for the vastly increasing business of the State, and the change to the present practice, became necessary; and I believe, but for tha t unfortunat e restricting clause, we should not be sittinghere to-d,y. Doubtless otre than all the other causes put together, this produced the call of this convention; and I believe, that if we had turned our attention to the establishment of a judiciary system, founded upon the apparent and well known necessities of the State-had we done nothing elSe, this constitution would be triumphantly sustained by the people. I regret that this system has found so much favor with this convention, because I believe that it cannot be permanent. I have no motion to make, and care little whether the plan is adopted now, or rejected. I have done all that I could do, and self-respect, if no other motive would prohibit one from interfering anly farther. The question then being onl the passage of the report, Mr. HIOLT offered for adoptions the following resos lution: Resolvned, That the article on the judiciary be reco mitred to the standing comxmittee on that subject, witt' ell, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Wilson and President. —39. So the Report was passed, and on motion, referred to th e com mi ttee on R evision, Enrollment and Arrangement. Re port n umber thre e, of the standing committee on Militia, was read a thir d time. The question then being on the passage of the Report- it was passed, And on mo tio n referred to the committee on Revision, Enrolment and Arrangement. Report number one of the standing committee on the Judici al D epartm ent wa s read a third time. The ques tion then being on the passage of the bill; Mr. GREEN of Ross. I desir e ere, before the question is taken upon this r epaor t, o solicit the attention of the conv ention for a few moments, to an expression of my d issent to its provisions. And first, upon the manner in which it has been pars ed through this body. Several St her plans for a judiciary system, have been presented, d uring the sessions o f this convention, all of which have bee n treated cavalierly enough, and dismissed with as little consideration as possible. No opportunity has ben given oir a comparison between thei r provisions, an d these of the report of the committee. Sere.ral of them have not even been granted the poor privilege ofebebig read through. I have heard the plan reported by the select committee, characterized by gentlemen, (jocularly, no doubt,) as the "'vastly original ,plan," of the gentlemen composing that committee The idea has been thrown out, that we had borrowed the principal features of that report, from the labors of the standing committee. Now, so far as this charge of borrowing is concerned, it seems to me$ that both icommittees had better cry quits. If the select has borrowed from the standing committee, the standing Committee has fully returned the compliment. But as amemberef theselectcommittee, I feel bound toreturn to those members of the standing committee who, the other day, sustained the previous question upon our eeport, the most grateful acknowledgements; and especially to the honorable chairman of that committee, whose name, I observe, recorded among the yeas, upon ordering the previous question, the effect of which, was to bring the convention to aidirect vote, without discussion-without examination, and without any of those means by which gentlemen are supposed to become acquainted with subjects which come up for action and decision before them. I desire, however, that it shall be fully understood, that I have no personal feeling upon this subject. It does not affect me more -than it does any other gentleman upon this floor; but were I disposed to be captious and to complain, I might say, and say justly, that gentlemen had manifested lit. tle respect, and far less parliamentary courtesy in theii course on this subject. I am opposed, Mr. President, to the plan of the stan. ding committee, for several reasons. When it was firs( presented, the only striking feature in its composition, that appeared at all novel, was the district court arranige. ment. But this is by no means new. It is an old and exploded experiment. It was years ago tried ill the State of Virginia, and after trial, was abolished as cumbrous and useless. It has been tried, also, in other States of the Unlion, with the like success. Yet the gentlemen of the committee, seem to cling to it with: a tenacity calculated to induce the belief that experience had tested and demonstrated its value, or that reason had'ndicated that it was better than any other] that could be suggested. And now, after the' report' has been changed and amended from what it originally: I I t i t 8 .1 r 0 s t 0 0 s I c I s a c t ns c p kr) 9 5 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRU ARY 24. ever, that in his animadversions upon members of the standing committee who voted to cut off debate upoti the report of the select committee by sustaining the previousquestion, he will exclude me, who voted against it. I desire to call attention to the fact that since the number of Judges of the Supreme Court has been in creased it may so turn out that the nminority of the Court call make a decision, even protniouncing a law uincontstituatioynal. Th ree Judges still remain a qlto rum, and a majority of three make a decision. So that it wo uld be competent fo t two J udges out of five to make the most important decisions. I wo uld suggest to the Committee, whether t he n umber competent to decide a cas e, should not bnow be increased t o a majority of the whole number of Judges. Mr. GREEN. The gentleman, (Mr. RArtNEY) is entitled to the exception. He did not vot e for the preo vious question. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. Th e motion of th e gentleman from Montgomery, (Mr. HOLT,) is as I understand it, to recommit the report, wit h i n st ruction s to st rike it out and to report a gener al sy stem, withouti defining the jurisdiction of the several courts. Now I, for one have no part i cular objection too his course. If Iund erstand the ge ntleman, he desires a provision something lik e t hat in the constitution of the Ufitred States. Mr. [OLT. That is it. Mr. HITCHCOCK. Suppose such a system as that had )een reported, the gentle m an, (Mr. sLtem,) would have gone against it. The people also who have been accustomed to a different th ing would not have been suited w ith it. The gentleman from Ross (Mr. GREEN) finds fault, because the committee has added another judge to the plan. The obiect of this was to have such a court as if a disagreement shall arise, there may be. a majority upon one side or the other, so that cases shall not go out of court in consequence of a division of opinions among the judges. He, also f-Jund fault, because there is not a pr,vision fortwo jury trials. Now we do not prohibit this. The Legislature may settle the question as it shalt deem proper. Upon this subject tthere is a differencee lof opinion. In my opinion a majority of the people think one jury trial enough, and so do,. Others think differently. I know that under the old svstetn3 the first jury trial was a mere essay of strength b;,-tween the parties, preparatory merely to the struggle that was to take place in the court above. Again, tne denial of a second jury trial will be in many eases a protection to the weaker party. It is not every man who is able to take his case up on a question of fact, and the difficulties that surround the appeal and the expenses that attend it, will frequently operate as a denial of justice in many a meritorious case. Under this system this question is left to the le gislature, and no one has a right to say that a second jury trial is denied, because it is not provided for. TI'he difference between the plans reported by the two committees is mainly this. In ours, the district court wil be composed of one judge of the supreme court, and two judges of the common pleas, while mn that of the select committee, the appeal will be taken to a court composed off two judges, onse of whom tried the case in the court below. Which will be the more likely to be affected by the proceedings of the formerk court, gentlemen can judge. Bult it is said, the system will not operate well. baby not? It has been tried in New York, and it is said to lwork well there, and if there, why not hiere. Mr. STANBIEPY. The gentleman from Ross i aistraction to report a system ofjudicial courts, leaving their jurisdiction to be conferred and regulated by the General Assembly. The question then being on the re commitment of the article, with instructions; Mr. HOLT. I desire to occupy the time of the conv?ntion but a moment. After the vote ordering the previous question alluded to by the gentlenman from Ross, I have believed it fruitless to attempt to prevail by argument. I would barely remark, in regard to the proposition I have submitted, that I observe that the recent constitution of Michigan, and also that of Rhode Island, in their articles establishing a judiciary system, they barely declare where the judicial power shall be vested, and provide for the existence of the courts, leaving their jurisdiction tobe settled by the General Assemnbly, from time to time, as the wants of the people shall require. I think that if a proposition something like this, had been introduced somrnetime since, it might have prevailed,but I am convinced that the prolonged and tiresome discussions upon mere detail that we have had, have rendered the members of this body, weary of the subject, until they are willing to get rid of it, on any terms. For myself, I cannot believe that the system will work right, in the speedy and rapid trial and decision of cases, or that it will be satisfactory in bringing justice home to the people of the State. And I will say to my friends on the left, (Democratic,) that the time willcome, when you will see that you have acted a very injudicious par; in the establishment of courts of this sort-courts that have the power to declare void every act of the General Assetibly, and yet such, as was remarked by the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. STANBERY,) as the people are! out of place ill. Mr. STANBERY. I wish to say to the gentleman from Montgomery, (Mtr. HOLT,) that a great deal of small capital in regard to thes report seems to have been made out of remarks charged upon sonme gentlemen, which were never made. I never said that the people were out of ptace in such a court. Mr. HOLT. I understood the gentleman, (Mr. STANBERY,) to say —speaking of the District court, I that suitors would nriot desire to be present, and my im- pression is that he used the expression "out of place." Now I want a court that shall come among the people, that shall sit ill their presence and decide matters of fact in their hearing. It is true that if mere questions of law were the only questions to be considered by courts of justice, there would be no need of this; but such I hope will not be the case, and I desire that the district court shlall be able to empannel a jury and decide questions of fact as well as of law. Mr. RANNEY. I will only say in regard to the whole system that the people will find it practically no better than the old, except in its capacity for extenisioni, whibh the old had not. But as mnuch as I dislike it, I will say that I prefer it to what it was when it first came from the committee. Its worst points have been taken off. Still the system is inherently wrong. It will pile up and protract litigation far beyond what i-h necessary to secure the ends of justice. Nor can I s.iv, from what I hav e l earned of the rep,,rt of the select committee that I should prefer that t~, tile present schemne. I do not look upon the ability t~, have thle second jury trial as a very desirable feature. WhiatlIdesire, its a court good enlough anti strong enough to take hold of the business anid settle it at once and filially, The gentlemtan from Ross, (Mr. GRzgN,) complains that the reporteof the select committee ~vas treated somewhat cavalierly by the convention. I fully symnpathise w~ithl him, and with all others in the results of the presenitationl of thleir several systems- I hope h1ow I .696 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- MoNDAY, FEBRUARY 24. (Mr. GREEN,) thinks he has been treated with a want this, an entirely different plan. The plan which he of courtesy by the convention. had before submitted he believed a good one. Besides Mr. GREEN. I speak not in my own behalf, but the domestic county court, there wvas really but one on that of a committee of this body. court, and that a working court; the systemr was cal Mr. STANBERY. The gentleman from Ross, (Mr. culated to make practical men of your judges. He GREEN,) complains of the watnt of courtesy to the spe- wished his friends on his left, the right of the chair cial committee, and refers very distinctly to the mem to remember that in making a court of paper judges bers of the standing committee. I suppose the ground at the present' day, judges who never saw the people of complaint is the vote sustaining the previous ques- and were never seen by the people, with powerin two tion. For one. sir, I voted against it. of them to arrest the legislation of the State, they The gentleman, (Mr. GREEN,) says that the district were doing what they would have occasion to regret. court, that is a court made up in part of the judges of This was not progress. the inferior and superior tribunals, is an obsolete idea. Mr. STIDGER. I desired when this report and ita Virginia, he says, had it, and repudiated it. Now, amendments returned from the committee that it so far as I can discover, Virginia never had it. She should be laid on the table anid printed; but for sorm had a court of appeals and a general or superior court, reason or other this slight request was denied. The but each court was kept distinct from the other. result has been that since the amendments weremade, Mr. GREEN. If the gentleman, (Mr. STA.'NBRY,) neither time nor opportunity have been afforded for will look back for twenty-five or thirty years, he will that careful examination of the subject which its imfind that there was just such a court that intervened portance demands. This is much to be regretted, and between the court of original jurisdiction and the it seems to me that the course that has been taken is court of appeals. not a little reprehensible as well as unfortunate. Tle Mr. STANBERY It may be so, but nothing of report has been hurried on in hot haste, as if the printhe kind appears in the constitution of 1830. But is cipal object was to get it through, and with little care, this district court an obsolete idea? Obsolete sir. so it passed, as to what it should containi. I will not Why what has New York got? Exactly such a court. say that the act is to be regarded as contemptuous, What has the United States? What is the circuit but I must insist that it was not such as would have court but a court that is made up of the local judges, been dictated by a manful and refined courtesy. and one of the judge- of the supreme court? But the subject is before us and whether we will or The practice is gaining ground all over the coun. not, we nmust act upon it. And I feel myself con. try. The provision of the gentleman in regard to his strained to say, that so far as I understand the subtwo jury trials, is in truth an obsolete idea. We have ject-the bearings of the article, the wants of the pe had it, tried it, got tired of it and abandoned it; and ple, and its fitness to supply those wants, I belive I hope forever. A second trial, as a matter of course, that the people whom I have the honor to represent without regard to the verdict, whether it be good or would, if this shall form a part of the Constitution, bad, right or wrong, was a singular anomaly. reject that Constitution by a majority far greater thai The gentleman firom Trumbull, (Mr. RANNEY,) corm- they gave in favor of holding this Co:nvention. If plains of the system because it may occur that a thereisany one subject in which they feel a deep and cause may be decided by a minority of all the judges. lively interest it is that the courts of the State shall Three of the five judges of the supreme court consti- be so constituted as to admit of appeals of questions tute a quorum, and a majority of them may decide a of fact. That an adequate provision for that purpose question, when in his opinion. in older to be binding, be incorporated in this instrument, they will insist. it ought to be concurred in by a majority of the whole: For myself, I should be sorry indeed to see the labor I admit that such a concurrence would be desirable, of five months destroyed by a single unfortunate probut it is not the practice. The supreme court of the vision, in an instrument in many respects, unobjectiotUnited States is composed of nine judges, any five of able, and I feel pained by the conjunction of circumwhich constitute a quoram, a majority of which may stances that force me to vote against the passage of decide upon any question submitted to them. It is the article; but I have no alternative, because I believe true that in cases of difficulty the court may withhold that its passage will end this Constitution, with the its decision until there is a full bench, and the ar- people. rangement of that matter may safely be left to the Mr. STIDGER then moved that the report be laid court itself. In most cases, I had much rather a on the table, in order that it might be printed. cause should be decided by three out of five judges, The question then being on laying the report on the than go over. table. Gentlemen complain that we define too strictly the Mr. WORTHINGTON demanaded the yeas and '{risdietion of the courts. That is a mistake, sir. nays, which were ordered, andresulted-yeas36, nays e provide for the character of jurisdiction-that is 44, as follows: that it shall be appellate oily-or original and appel YEAS-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Cahill, Clark, late-but we do not pretend to define the limits of such Curry, Ewing,, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross appellate or original jurisd;ction. We leave all that Gregg, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holues,HIolt, Hootman, very properly to the Legislature. The single excep- lumphreville, Hunt, Jones, Larwill, Leech, Leadbettion to this is the probate court. As to that we do de- ter, Lidey, Maiion, Mitchell, Orton, Patterson, Quigfine its jurisdiction and fix its limits, and we have ley, Reemelin, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Augdone this to meet the public expectation, and for no laize, Sellers, Stickiney, Stidger, Thompson of Stark, other reason. Warren, Wilson and Worthington-36 Mr. HOLT began to hope that his motion might pre- NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, vail. He had now the authority of the honorable Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blicketisderfer, gentleman from Geauga. That gentleman had said Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Chahe had no personal objections to such an article on ney, Dorsey, Ewart, Forbes, Groesbeck, Hamilton, the Judiciary as was proposed. Why not tl.en let us Hawkins> Henderson, Hunter, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawhave it? His only objection seenis to be that the del- rence, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCoregate from Montgomery, at an early period of the mick, N~-ash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Sawyer, Convention, had submitted an entirely different plan. Smith of Highland, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery,. He could not see why that plan, which the projector Stanton. Stebbins, Stilwell, Swift, Taylor, Thompson had failed to get adopted, should be an objection to of Shelby, Way, Woodbury and President-44. 6"97 098 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, FEBRUARY 24. NAYS-Messrs. Archbold, Cahill, Clark, Cutler, Graham, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Manon, Mitchell, McCloud, M cCormick, Patterson, Qui gley Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, S cott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stickney, Stid, gert, Thompso n of S he lby, Thompson of Stark, War ren, Wilson and Worthington o -40. So the demand for the previous questi on was sus tained. The question then being on the passage of th Report, Mr. LEADBETTER demanded t he yeas and nay s, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 51 sc, nays 32 as follows. YEAs- Me ssrs. A ndrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carrndll Chambers, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Graham, o roes beck, Hamilton, H awkins, Hen ders on, Hitebcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hunt, Hunter, Kennoi, Kirkwood Larsh, Lawre nce, More head, Mlorris, McCloud, I Me Cormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Pe ck, Per kin s, Riddle, Ro ll, Sawver, Smi th of High land, Smith od Wyandot, Stanbery Stebbins, Stilwell,Stickne y,Swift, Taylor, Thompson of She lby, Way a nd Wo odbury 51. NAys- Messrs. Cahill, CChaney,Clark, Curry,,Fo rbe s Greene of Defiance, Gre en of Ross, Greg, e Holt, Hoot man, Jones, Larwillt,L eech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mano, Mason, Mitchell, Pattersonul e, Quiley, Rainney, Reeme lin, Scottof Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Selters, Stan ton, St idger, Thompson of Stebark, Warren, Wilon, Worthington and President-32. S o the Report was passed; and on motion refe-Te to the Committee on Revision, Earollment and Ar rangement. Mr. EWART moved that the convention resolve it self into a committee of the whole on the orders of the, day; which motion prevailed; and Mr. Mircizi. was called to the chair. The order being Report No. 2, of the standing come mittee on education, the same was taken up. Sections 1 and 2, were passed without amendment. $ice. 3. The General Assembly shall make sutton provisions by taxation or otherwise, as, with the income arising from the school trust funds, will secure a thorough and efficient. system of common schools throughout the State, and plact the means of instruction in the common branches of educa tion, for a suitable portion of each year, within the reach of all the children therein, of suitable age and capacity for learn ing; Provided, that no religious or other sect or sects, shall ever have any exclusive right to, or control of any payt~of the school funds of this State. Mr. ARCHBOLD moved to amend the section in the fourth line, by striking out the word "common,'> and inserting in lieu thereof the word "useful." Mr. ARCHBOLD was afraid the word common would in future prove too great a limit on the discre tion of the General Assembly. At the present time, there is no difficulty in ascertaining what it means, bull the time might come when retaining its present limit of definition, it might stand in the way of further and necessary improvements in the school system. Ht hoped to see common schools advance, not only to meet such demands as are now made upon them, but to meet higher and greater requisitions. Then the common of the future will need to be far above the commor~ of the present. He wanted to see a system of schaols as perfect as could be devised, and to see it i'mprove so' as to keep pace smith the most rapid progress of the most rapid element of our social or political constitution. So ciety ought not to be shackled too far. He hoped for a I higher and holier order of things in the future. she ISo the motion to lay the Report on the table was ejected. The question then being on the passage of the Re pOrt, Mr. LARWILL. I regret to say, Mr. President, that I shall feel myself compelled to vote against the Report. I admit that under the hands of the Conven tion, it has been much improved from what it was when first presented; but still there are features in it so objectionable, that I should not feel justified in the eyes of my constituents in giving it my support. The first objectionable provision is that which creates the District Court. It is a thing that our people do not want, and that they have not asked for. They want no untried experiments. What we want, is the old system, so enlarged as to meet the demand created by the increasing greatness, wealth and population of the State. We would correct the old system so far as to dispense with the Associate Judges of the Common Pleas, and to constitute a Probate Court. There was another thing that we wanted. We wanted to have restored to us the right of appeal in questions of fact; and if there is any one thing for the want of which the people of the section of the coun try which I represent, will be induced to vote against the Constitution, it is this. It does seem to me, that gentlemen ought to be disposed to yield this point to those who place so much stress upon it, especially as by not doing so, they will endanger the reception of this instrument. As it is, as I said, Mr. President, I shall be under the disagreeable necessity of voting against this Report. Mr. McCORMICK. I here is nothing in this Arti cle that can prevent the L, gislature from giving the higher Courts the right to entertain appeals of ques tions of fact. Mr. LARWILL. I want the matter to be secured. I want it put in the Constitution. Mr. GREEN, of Ross. Does the gentleman from Adams, (Mr. McCORMICK,) think the Legislature will ever exercise that power? Mr. ARCHBOLD. I think that if it is in the power of the General Assembly to give an appellate jurisdic. tion to the District Court, il questions of fact, the gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. LARWILL,) ought to be satisfied. Now, such a provision in the Constitution would be a great objection among myconstituents. It would seem as if that gentleman and myself ought to m e et half way, and leave the whole matter to the Legislature. The act of thatbody in taking away the appel-late jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, was popular with us; and it seems to me, that with the view of the case suggested by the gentleman from Adams, we ought to be satisfied. The question being on the passage of the article, Mr. SAWYER. Other gentlemen having defined their positions, I am about to define mine. For that purpose, I move the prexious question; Which was seconded. The question then being, shall the main question be now put, Mr. LARW ILL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 43, nays 40, as fol)oWs: YEAs —Me~csrs. Barbee, Barnlet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Cheney, Cook, Dorsey,:Ewart, Ewing, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geaulga, Hunter, Kennon, Kirkwood, Mason, Morehead, Mor ris, Nash, Norris, Ortonl, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Sawyer, Smith of W~yandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins Stilwell, Swift, Taylor, Way, Woodbury and President-43. r t OHIO CONVENTION DEBATE,-MONDAY, FERBUARY 24. idea of what is useful twenty years hence may be far different from what they now are, while the word common may become a mere definition,describing what is now present, and striving to bind the future within the narrow limit which it prescribes. Mr. HUMPPHREVILLE. It seems to me the amendment will not in fact obviate the difficulty. There i s little more danger of the word common being perverted than of the word useful. Common schools in future will be common schools-that is to say they will not be uncommon schools. They will be schools that will hold the same relation to the then state of-things that the present common schools do to the present state of things. Mr. AR CHBOLD. Some b igot may arise and give a different construction to the word. Mr. tHUMPRREVILLE. So some bigot may arise and give a different construction to the word useful. Difference of opinion may arise as to what is useful. Many believe that there can be no learning that is not useful. Carried to an extreme this opinion would turn every little log school house into an university. Mr. HENDIO.SON. Or a meclhanic's shop. The question then being on the adoption of the amendment, the same was disagreed to. Mr. SAWYER moved further to amend the same section, by inserting in the fifth line, before the word children, the word "white." The question then being on the amendment: Mr. BROWN of Athens suggested that such an amendment might be construed to be in violation of the original compact between the United States and Ohio. It was provided that the funds arising from the sale of the donated lands should be applied to the purpose of .education and be free to be enjoyed by all and especiallv by the poor. He believed the better course would be to leave this question to the Legislature. The question then being on the amendment, the same was disagreed to; yeas 30, nays 38. Mr. LARWILL moved to amend the same section in the first line, by striking out the word "shall" and inserting the word "may;" which was disagreed to. Mr. McCORMICK moved to amend the same section in the fourth and fifth line, by striking out words, "a suitable portion," and inserting in lieu thereof, "at least six months." The question being on the amendment. Mr. HOOTMAN moved to amend the amendment, by striking out the word six, and inserting the word nine, in lieu thereof. The question being on the amendment to the amendmlent. Mr. MANON said he should vote for six months, because he feared a longer time might be injurious, under some circumstances. He was for the longest time, and if he thought it practicable he would go for fourteen months in a year; and he believed some of the Yankee school teachers could put in that amount of time without much difficulty. However, as he thought six nmonths would suit the people best, he should vote for that time. The question being on the amendment to the amend ment. The same was lost. The q uestion then being on the amend ment of Mr. McCORMICK. Mr. LEAD)BETTIER, hoped the amendment would not prevail; not but that he was as much in favor of schools as any man could be, but because he was aware that there are many districts in the State that cannot' carry it into practice. There was not in his county, so far as he knew one district where it could not be car nied out, but there were others whose circumstances were not so farotab!e-where the districts are large, and the population sparse. The general feeling in his section of the State was to have schools as long as poesible, and we want no constitutional provision upon the subject. The Legislature has full power over the subject and that will answer our purpose. If there are any who think that their parts of the State cannot take care of themse lve s, he was willing that something should be put in for th em, but for his own part he wanted to be excluded. He t ho ught ther e w as a great disposition hereto suppose that that people had no ability to take care of themselves. Now it is wo rse tha n useless to put in the constitution tha t which the pe ople e cat onnot carry out, and in this case, if the y cannot carry it out, they become loser s by that which is simply their misfortune, and which should excite commniseration rather than vrovoke a penalty. He was opposed th that system of ete rnall y binding down and binding down, and that i n cases where no rule what ever i s neeessary. The question then being on the amendment, the same was tgre ed to; yeas 42, nays 27. Mr. THOMPSON of Shelby, moved furtherto amend the section, by adding at the end of the same, the fol1owing:-M"nor shall the rights of conscience be in any case interfered with." The question then being on the amendment. Mr. BROWN of Car oi11, said he wanted to vote nuderStandingly upon this question. He would like to have the gentleman [Mr. THOMPSON,] explain what he means by it. He supposed that the rights and freedom of conscience were effectually secured by provisions in other parts of the constitution, and did not see the necessity for the insertion of such a; provision in this place. Mr. THOMPSON said he thought the sentiment expressed in the amendment would be conceded to be correct by every member on the floor. The object of the provision was to secure that no religious sect shall, in any manner control the dispensation of the school funds of the State. That was a thing he desired to see, and to guard against it he thought something of this: kind was needed. Mr. BROWN of Carroll said it seemed to him thatt so far as the rights of that tender and indescribable thing called a conscience was concerned, he believed they were amply provided for in the bill of rights. Mr. REEMELIN said that the provision in the bill of rights was in reference to grown up men, but the amendment of the gentleman from Shelby, [Mr. THOMPSON,] was a provision in favor of children. The object was that when they came to the public schools, they shall not be driven away by attempts to teach any, peculiar religious tenetsor prejudices. It was obvio)us ly possible that the common schools might be used for purposes of inculcating peculiar religious doctrines, and thus their object might be perverted and their good effects destroyed. The amendment,at any rate would do no harm, and might be productive of much good, and he hoped it would prevail, for he had a great de sire to promote that kind of harmony which would be in danger of being interrupted by the introduction of anything calculated to run counter to the religious be lief of either childre al or tleir parents. Thee question then being on. the amendment, the same was agreed to. M. HITCHCOCK of Geauga then moved that the third section be stricken out. The quostion being on striking out: Mr. HITCHCOCK said that he did not See that the section conferred any power upon the General Assemb1y that it did not already possess, except that it re. quires that body to raise by taxation or otherwise modney enough to sustain the conmmon schools of the 699, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 2-. ) tion is nothing but the frame-work of government. (As far as the Judicial and Executive Departments are concerned, their powers are mostly delegated.) But, in regard to the Legislative Department, I deny h lat this is the case. It is not the business of this body-this Convention of the people delegate power to the Legislature. *. * * *k * * * Sir, I am rot afraid of this proposition. I affirm, that no powers have been granted to the Legislature by the former Constitution, either toborrow money, to make a highway, contract a debt, orto assess taxes; nor authority to do scarce ly anything they have done. The Legislature of a State pos. sesses all powers not taken away by the Constitution of the State or the United States, and not inconsistent with a repub lican form of government, or the existence of the State." Now it has appeared to be the opinion of gentle men, and so they have argued and voted, that no mat ter whether there be a State in actual existence or not, there is a legislative power dormant among the wilds until called into action, and no matter whether there be a Constitution or not, there is an ideal legislature, having a right to exist and clothed with all legisla tive power-a power so great and wide that it cannot be added to, but which may be diminished by express constitutional provisions, and in no other way. If this view is correct, we may strike out the section, and still the legislature will have the power to em. ploy the lecturers and make the expenditures. If we restrict, it is bound by the limits we set; but if we do not, its power is as broad, as extensive and as comprehensive, as the nature of the subject itself. Mr. GREGG was in favor of striking out the section. In his opinion it would be a squandering of the school fund, to employ it in the establishment of normal schools and seminaries for school teachers. We have in the State, a law establishing the Union School System, and under it, in the North part of tihe State, they are able to educate all the teachers they require, and it would cost six times as much to edu cate a teacher under the Normal school system as un der the Union school law. t The question then being on striking out the fourth section, the same was agreed to. Mr. SAWYER moved that the committee rise and report, which was agreed to, and the committee row and the Chairan reported back the bill and amendmetnts. On motion of Mr. THOMPSON of Shelby, the Convention took a recess. counties. That may be good policy, but it seemed t( him better to leave the whole matter to the couitlei, and townships to do what they like. The peopl have been going on, perfecting their system as far ad they can, and it would seem to be better not to inter fore in a matter where interference may not be favora bly received. The question then being on striking out, the sam was disagreed to; yeas 23, nays not counted. SEC. 4- The General Assembly may, by suitable provisions aid and encourage the formation of institutes, and depart ments, for the training of prolessional teachers, and affording instruction in agriculture and other practical sciences, under es,ach r egulations and condition s as may be deemed expedient Mr. REEMELIN moved t hat section four be strick en out. The question then bei o iing on s triking out: Mr. REEMELIN said he was afraid of these sec tions, couc hed in such gen eral t erms. T hey conAtain more power than at first sight appears. Under this the G en eral Assembly may empicy lecturers to go alm over the State and d el iver lectures, upon agriculture or commerce, or manufactures. They may educate blacksmiths, or lawyers, or engineers, or doctors A VOICE. Or Banlkers Mr. REE]31ELIN. No: that's not a practical sci etnce a t all. But under this s ec tion we may have high schools and colleges, support newspapers, &c. Now I believ e i t would be better, to leave this matter to th e Genera l Assembly than to at tempt to co ntrol it here. Mr. TAYLOR. I am no particular advocate for this section, but I wis h to call attention to its phrase. ology, "T tThe General Assembly may." Arguments are made up on th e assumption that the General Assembly may not do as it p leases, but it is a very significa it question- what is the power of the General As sembly over subjects not en u merated in the con stitutieot? Now I will go for giving the legislature no power but such as is expressly delegated to it. At present, so far as appears, the legislature has all power unless it is expressly taken away. I wil l vote for the sec tion to be retained as a mode of expressing my feeling that the limits of legislative power ought t o be canvassed, and gentlemen should be able to say whether they are in favor of giving vast and unlimited power to the General Assembly. Mr. REEMELIN. If such an idea is abroad, it is prepos terous. The legislative power of one of the State s of this Union is not tha t unl im ited authority pos sessed by the parliament of Great Britain.' hat body has, according to the theory of its construction, all power that can possibly belong to a legislative body; but such is not the construction put upon the legislative power in this country. Hlis attention had not been called to this view of the subject before, but he had no doubt that the construction that would be giv. ,6n to this article would be, that the legislature has no power over the subject of schools, but such as is conferred by it. Mr. McCORM1CK. In reference to the construction to be given to the provisions of the constitution, in restraining the power of the legislature, I beg leave to call the attention of the gentleman from Hamilton to the remarks of the gentleman from Belmont, [Mr. KENNOrq,] made a few days sin~e uponl this floor, which should have awakened his attention to the subject. According to that genltlemran, the legislature does possess the range ef powers described by the gentleman from Erie, [Mr. TaYLOa,] unless they are ex press~ly restrained by constitutional provisions. He says: - "I understand the Constitution of the State to be entirely different mn its character, from what it seems to be regarded by some mtembers of this body —entirely different in its effects anad operations. In it~ intents and objects, a State Constitu 2j/g O0CLOCK, A. M. The question pending being on) the first amendment of the cormmnittee of the whole on the report No. 2 of the co mmittee on education, On motioni of Mr. KING, the report aud pending amendments were laid on the table. Mr. KING from the standing committee on publin institutions of the State:, to whom had been recommit. ted report No. I of the committee on the subject, reported the same back with sundry amendments. The question then being on agreeing to the first amendment, to wit: III section 1 strike out all after the word "and " in the third line and insert in lieu thereof the following: "shall be subject to such regulations, as shall be imposed by the General Assembly," it was was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the second amendment, to wit: In section 2 insert after the word "Penitentiary" the following words: "shall be appointed or elected in such manner as the General Assembly 'shall direct," it was agreed to. On motion the amendments were ordered to be engrossed. The question then being on the passage of the re. port, it was agreed to. I II a i t p 0 a 700 AFTERNOON SESSION. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MMoNDAY, FEBRUARY 24. ploy a competent teacher in every district. They say, that twenty five children need as good a teacher as seventy- five, and they should have one. Do gentlemen suppose that a people who have been taught from their cradles to believe that the burthenis and benefits of taxation should be equally shared in by all the people, would submit to this? I do not suppose so. Our people submit cheerfully to taxation for purposes of education, but they want, and they will have, the benefits of taxes levied for these purposes divided among the people equally-in other words, among the schlool dis. tricts in proportion to the number of children'in each district.. This rule does not always return as much tax to some districts as they paid; but this is the rule that all classes, who are friendlv to publicschools, believe to be right, and as I said before, they will have it so. Then, sir, we are driven back to where we started from, and If the school tax be raised by general levy, by the General Assembly, it must, I think, be conceded, that to have six months school, such as is worthy the namne of school, is impracticable. There is but one plan left, and that is for the Legis lature to pass a general law requiring the school di rectors of every district, the trustees of every township, or the commissioners of every county, to levy a sufficient amount of tax to kieep a six months school i n every district. If the commissioners a ttempt it they must meet t he same difficulties that the General As semblv would if they were to attempt it. So too the township trustees to some extent, for if t h ey were to attempt to le vy a t ax suffi cient to keep school in all the districts of any giv e n towns hip, the burdens and bepne fits must fall ve ry ine qui tably on the difyrent dis tricts. The only thing they could: do would be to levy an aggregate amount on the township, to be divided amongtlhe districts, and while orne might get 100 dol lars another might get but one third that sum. So that while the first can keep a school without difliculty and we will supposo a good one too-the last must have an inferior one, or raise the deficit by private con tributioiis. So that in the end the proposition to re quire every district to keep six monith)s school is a prnp osition to increase the qaritiliy and not hiffg else. For the district that is not able to Iake up it s leficit-iand I beg ge ntl e men to reflect that in the sparsely popu lated, and new portions of the state there are many such districts —then the result w ill be that the public fund will be made to employ such a teacher as will teach six months for it; and the result will be that by requiring every district to keep six months school, you compel many of them to throw what they may get of the school fund away upoti worthless teachers. But gentlemen appear to be determined to have six months school whether it is worth any thing or not. Our schools are poor enough now, and if you compel- the people of the less favored districts to keep six mionths, the result will be that instead of employing a good teacher for three or four inonths, they will lele the job out to the teacher who will teach six months for what money they have. My opinion of schools- is sotnething like Plinys opinion of sl)eedhes-said he' if a speech be:a good one the more there is of it hlie more it is worth,: and if it be a poor one the less it is worth." I hope gelntlemen will not think that I am hostile to common schools. I am not. I am indebted to common schools,for nearly all of the little education I have, and it is but little, I got in common schools, as pupil a-nd teacher. I would be gladl if every district in the state could have nine months goo~d school every year-Abut until our state is more densely and equally populated they cannlot adl have it, anid sir, gentleman had as well think of forcing all education into a boy's brain with a squirt, as to force the people to g~o ahead of their And on motion the report was referred to the committee on "revision, enrollment and arrangement.", Mr. S-MITE of Warren asked and obtained leave to r e c o r d his vote on the passage of the report or the judicial department, and his name being called he voted ,,aye." MIr. SMITH of Warren, asked and obtained leave to record hisvote on thepassageofthereportofthecommrnittee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits, and his name veing called he voted "aye." Messrs. KING, CuRRY and STRUBLZ asked and obtained leave to record their votes on the same subject, and their names being severally called they voted "nay." Mr. GILLETT asked and obtained leave to record his vote on the sanme subject, and his name being called, he voted "aye." On notion of Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, the convention took up the report and pending amendments of the committee on education. The question pending being on the first amnendment of the committee cf the whole, to wit: In section 3, in about the middle of the same, strike out the words "a suitable portion," and insert in lieu thereof the words " at least six months." Mr. McCORMICK moved a call ofthe Convention, which was ordered, and Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Collings, Cutler, Florence, Forbes, Gray, Hard, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga, Horton, Johnson, Larsh, Leadbetter, London, Ranney, Stanbery, Stilwell, Swan, Townshlend, Vance of But ler, Vance of Champaign and Williams were found ab sent. On imnotion, Me ssrs. CnsE of Hockting, CASE of Lick ing, and TOWNSHEIND were sevee erally excused. On motion o f Mr. HITC rCOCK of Geauga all fur ther proceedings under the call were dispensed with. T he ques tion then being on the first amendment of the committee of the whole, Mr. THOMPSON o f Shelb y d emanded a division. The question then being first on s triking out the words, "a suitable portions" sixr. HAMILTON sa id: Mr. President, I hope this amendment will not prevail. It certainly involves an impracticability. The Report says, that the General Assemb ly shall make provision, "by taxatioioi or other w ise," to provide the m eans of instruction a t lea st six months in each year. Now, how is the General As semb!y to effect this? Admitting that they could as certain what aggregate amount of monney would be need ed for th is purpose-but this they never could tell -h ow is it t o be divided among the districts of t he State, so as t o enab le ever y di strict to hav e school for six months? Perhaps gentlemen will say, that it should be divided am ong the di stricts in proportion to the number of children in each district. How will this work? It is frequently the case that one district has as many as seventy- five children, while one adjoining has but twenty-five-,and ye t the ch ildren in the latter may be so s itua ted, that they m ust c bave a district where they are, or else have n o school. Now, if y ou divide the money according to this rule, you must give to the first,three times the a mou nt vou give to the l atter. And the amount drawn by the first, may be an amount am ply sufficient to keep six months —nay. even nine jneths shool-ta nd thave a good teacher, too; and 1 tske occasion here to say, at the most important part of a school system,;8 to have good teachers —-indeed, without them, nlo system is worth much;-while tile the latter will draw so little, that it must contribute private means, or elsefhave six months of inferior or worthless school. Gentlemen must see that their ob ject is not attainable under this planl. Again it is suggested, that tile General Assembly should levy a sufficient sum, and so divide it as to ema 701 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, FEBRUARY 24. ability in providing the means of education. The peo- This proposition, sir, cannot secure good schools. ple are generally awake to the importance of schools, i You may seek to compel a school to be kept six months and doing the best they can to perfect the system of in every district, but in many cases, they will not be common schools. such schools as ought to be encouraged. I would far Mr. McCORMIICK. I hope the recommendation of rather have a good school of three or four months' con. the committee will prevail; for it is a proposition not tinuance, than a bad school of six months. If you corn any more impracticable, than our present system of pel the people of every district, to keep a school six districting and distributing the school fund of the state. months in the year, or lose their share of public mo A return of the number of the school children in the ney, they will support a school according to their state of Ohio, is made every year to the Secretary of means; they will hire somebody for a teacher, who is State; and also the amount of the school fund expend- too lazy and good for nothing, to do anything else, and ed. Then, if we have the number of children-if we of course, good for nothing as a teacher-or, perhaps, know howr much it will require to keep a school in each some female. But I could even wish that more females district of the state for three months in the year, we would allow themselves to engage in the business of may easily make a just estimate for six months. I teaching, than we can procure now; for, in a great have yet to learn it, if there has ever yet been found many instances, they are far more competent for sueh any particular difficulty in the matter of distributing a position, than many of our school masters, who have the sichool fund. obtained a certificate of a board of examiners. As for this board of examiners, I have no doubt the One of the arguments made use of here, is, that the Legislature established them, supposing that they would taxes will be too high, on account of the numberofanwer a very good purpose but really they have school districts. That, to be sure, is a difficulty under answer a ve ry good purpose; but reallygainst they mpohavey which we now labor; but one of the objects to be at- proved to be little or no security against the employb which we new labor; but one of the objects to be at- ment of indifferent teachers. Still the same kind of tained by the amendment, (if carried,) will be, to in- men are employed in this capacity, who were but too crease thie s-ize, and thereby reduce the number of the men are emiployed in this capacity, whD were but too crease the size, and twoeb ducethe numbero of thre tre common in the schools of ten or fifteen years ago. districts-making two districts out of three, or three To illustrate the operation of this law, creating districts out of five, and so making the tax for the s up. boards of examiners-here is a district, we will suppose, port of a school six months in the year as light as it required to upport a school a certain time, or lose now is. r q i e o ~ potasbo eti ie rls anePRO~~w~ is8~. ~their share of the public funds, and they send up some Sir, I have felt a good deal interested upon this sub- man, who is willing to be their teacher, fur a small ject, in common with those whom I represent here; compensation, to a board of examiners to get their cer -for we look upon our presentschlool system as possess- tificate; but they tell him he is not quite perfect en iag but very little vitality. It is my desire sir, to ough. He then goes home, and tells his employers the adopt for a school system, something in which the peo- result, and they immediately go up, and say to the ex pie will take an interest-something that they can look aminers, you must give us this man for a teacher, or upon with affection-something that can bring solace we canuot get a teacher at all; and the result of this and comfort to our homes and firesides, instead of a application is, tliat they give to the manl who is not at cold political machine, the influence of which can be all qualified, a certificate which authorizes him to teach felt only at the ballot box. school. The consequence is, that the country is over Another reason why I desire the adoption of this run with bad school teachers; teachers who are even report, is, because I desire to elevate the scale of corn- without any correct idea or knowledge of orthography. mon school education to a higher degree than it has I have had some experience upon these boards of exam ever yet obtained, or is likely to obtain, under the pre- iners, and I remember once to have asked a professionsent system. al teacher this question: How many sounds has the It has been said, that we ought to trust the manage- vowel a? And his reply was, that it had but one ment of this interest to the General Assembly. But sound; remarking that he had been a teacher seventeen now, for forty-eight years the General Assembly has years, and had always got a certificate, but never had been entrusted with this matter. Under the old Con- such a foolish question put to him in all his life. Ma stitution it is provided that public schools and the ny of these teachers know absolutely nothing, even of cause of education shall be forever encouraged; and, the orthography of the language. If we attempt thus to under this constitutional provision, we have trusted force a school system upon the people against their will, the General Assembly for forty-eight years; and we it will do no good, and why enforce a system which will may trust them for forty-eight years longer, without evidently prove impracticable? And because I believe any good result. We have never yet had a law passed and know that it will prove impracticable, I hope it upon the subject which has not squandered the public will be kept out of the constitution. If I thought it school funds. Our acts of Assembly upon this sub- could prove at all beneficial to the community, or to the ject have been either wasteful or imnpracticable,-like rising generation, I would go for it. But instead of the common school law of the session before last. benefitting them, I am apprehensive that it would do which has proved utterly impracticable throughout the them an injury. whole of the military district. Our system of common Mr. MANON. From the description of teachers and schools, instead of improving in legislative hands, has schools in Holmes county, which the gentleman has been degenerating; and I think it is time that we just given us, I do not know but I shall have to change should take the thing in hands ourselves. Either let us my opinion somewhat iln regaad to the people up there. establish and carry out an efficient system of common Or it may be, that the gentleman wishes to keep this school education or abandon the thing entirely to the provision out of the constitution, because he is afraid virtue aud intelligence of the people. it will make it popular, for I have understood that the Mr. LEADBETTER. So far as I am personally gentleman is rather disposed to oppose the adoption interested, I care little about this- matter. We support of the constitution by the people. For myself, I am a school, now, ill mv neighborhood, for more than six disposed to trust this matter to the Legislature, and months in the year. But taking the public money and would be glad to see the people compelled to support the taxation together, they have never Yet been suffi- their schools even for a longer time than six nonuths in dent to support the school in our neighborhood. It theyear. has always required the special contributions of those Mr. LIDEY. I hardly know what course to take who send their children to school. upon this particular question. I was in favor of the 702 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBaUARY 24. first article which was reported upon this subject, and I think now that I shall be in favor of striking out. I am disposed to allow the Legislature to regulate the dis tricts, and then allow the people to govern thenmselves in the matter of sustaining a school according to their means. I am decidedly in favor of schools, and a free school system, and I am willing to be taxed for such a purpose: but I am not willing to prescribe in the con stitutioii of the State, that each district shall support a school for six months in the year, for I am persuaded that a large number of the districts in the State cann ot di;t. Mr. BARNET of Montgomery. I am in favor of prescribing the longest time for sustaining common schools. I only regret that I cannot have the opportunity to vote for susta ining comnon schools n ine month s i n the year. I consider, sir, that the children of the S tate ar e t he property of the State; and that it is the dutv of t he S tate to educate them for usefulness. And that the fund s of the State are amply suff icien t t o ed ucate all the children of the State, no man in his s enses can doubt. I deplore as much as any oth an ther man, the want of efficient cotnhnon school teac hers. I, too, have witnessed some ridiculous exI ositions of the qualification s of th i s class of men. A grow n up y ou ng man was once asked wil my presence if h te knew what a vowel wabs? to which he r eplied that h e be lieved it w as an animal tha et went about at night catching hens. I am disposed, sir, to commend this matter to the Legislature in such a manner as not only to secure the establishment of good school s in every neighbor h ood, but to secur e the employment of more efficient teachers, Mr. BROWN of Athens. I t will be remembered that when this report was before the Conventi on on a ,former occasion, a mo tion w as made to re-commit and in s truct the committee to bring in an amendment i nserting a provi si on that every district school should be kep t six mon ths in t he y ear; and that that proposi tion was voted down. The committee therefore did not feel at liberty to embrace suc h a p rovisio n in their report. But the l anguage here used was intended to convey the same idea as near as may be, w i thout pre scribing an iron rule to t h is effect-leaving the subject open, but rather plainly indicating what should be the rule. It is true that a rule which might be applicable to one location would not be proper for another location. I would be in favor of keeping up schools for the l onge st tim e possible; but I am aware that it would be impossible to prescribe any rule which would operate equally throughout the State. There is also the other diffitulty alluded to-that of obtaining suitable teach ers. I also have had sonie experience with reference to the examination of teachers, as well as the gentle matt from Holmes; and I am sensible of the correct ness of his representations. I know, also, that we must not carry forward this matter faster than the people can be prepared for its reception; and that it would be in vain to prescribe this rule at the present tinme, for it could not be come up to in many parts of the State; although, at the same time, there are mans parts of the State who keep up their school for a lar ger portion of the time than is contemplated here. Mr. BROWN of Carroll. In order that my vote :may be property understood, I wishto say a few words upon this question. There is not a man upon this floors more favorable than 1 am to the general diffusion of knowledge by means of common schools. But in my opinion, this Convention ought not by an iron rule, to determine absolutely with regard to this mat. ter, what could be better done by tile General Assera bly. I think t thin th at tie pur pose on ly should be asserted here-the gene ral principle that there should be schools; and that the means f or supporting them should be provided; and that the details s h oul d all be left t o the Gener al A ssembly. But sir, above all other questions, thi s subject of the support, of common schools, Lust for all time, depend u pon public s entiment. I would be entirely in favor of a proposition to keep up schools in every district in the Stat e for six months in the year, if I were sitting in the Gener al Assembly, I would vote for such a proposition in that body, for the obvious reason, that, if it did not work well, the remedy Would be i n the han ds ofthe next Legislature. But if such a provision were put into the constitution, and it should prove injurious, th ere wo uld be no such facility of remedy. I think we ought not to run into the details o f legislation her e a t all. Men in their ardor to do good, sometimes do a great dea l of evil. I canI synpathize fully with t ose who desire to establish the longest time for annual district schools. I know their intentions are good; but I think that instead of advancing, they will retard the progress of commou school education. I fear that we m ig ht jeopardize the interests ofa good cause, by trying to do too much; for as I said betore, I am fully persuaded th at this p ubl ic school question should always be left to the current of events-tha t it should never be attempted to be carried ahead of public sentiment. Mr. BENNETT. I shall go for striking out as a matter of economy. It must be evident to every man, that, by keeping a child at school less than six months in the year, he will make but very little progress ill his studies. In other words, I think it must be the eX perience of every man that, by sending a child to school for only three or four months in the year, it will re quire a longer period of schooling to impart a given amount of instruction, than though the child were sent for six months, or upwards, every year. It is upon this principle that I go for striking out as a matter of economy. And when it is considered that the only education for the great majority of children of the State is to be attained by meanls of common schools, it seems to me that we should not hesitate, if we adopt free schcolsat all, to require that they should be kept up at least six months in the, year,they ought to be continued for a longer term; but certainly not for a shorter term. Mr. LEADBETTER. I feel the force of the re marks of the gentleutan from Tuscarawas, (Mr. BmN, NETr,) but 1 think he will agree with me, when he comes to reflect that in the eastern States where they have the best common school education in the world, this matter is left entirely to the people themselves. There was a time, to be sure, in some of those State$ when every man had to go to meeting once a quarter or pay a shilling. But that time is passed. Each township there is a corporation, and they vote just as much money as they see fit -for carrying on their schools. Now it is plain that where a principle is impractica ble it amounts to nothing, and gentlemen should take into consideration the fact that our common school system is nlot without its enemies. There is perhaps. nothing in the statute book which meets with such de; termined oppsition from a few, as our system of com monl schools, and this very thxing in the constitution, would be seized upon by such persons as a pretext for voting against the constitution; and I presume it would no0t add a single hour to the amount of school time in the State. In every district in my county, where it is practica, ble for them to do so, the people maintain a school for six months ill the year, and upwards; others for four I 703. OIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Mo,iDAY, FEBRUARY 24. months; others for three months. The people are ex tending their operations in this matter as far and as fast as they are capable of doing. They need no such urging in this matter, as is proposed here. And al though they may not have so many schools as the peo ple down in Licking county; (because perhaps we have not so many Yankees as there are in Licking. Yau. kues il Holmes county, are very scarce. There are but a few families of them, and they are not desirous of becoming schi)ol teachers,) I thinlk I may say that some of our Dutch settletments support quite as good common schools according to their situation, as can be found in that or any other county of the State. But a system of common schools is a thing which cannot be forced upon the people. If you attempt to drive it faster than liae progress of public sentiment by means of constitutional or legislative enactment, you will oil ly create dissatisfacti-,a and bring down votes against the adoption of the constitution, more than you are a rare of. Mr. McCORRMICK demanded the veas and nays upon the first amenedment of the committee, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 37, nays 45, as fol lows: YEAS-,-Aessrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Beiinett, Blickensderfer, Case of Licking, Chambers, Cook, Curry, Ewart, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hootman, Iunter, Jones, Larshl, Lawrence, Manon, Mason, Morehead, MceCloud, McCormick, Norris, Otis, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Swift, Taylor, and Worthington-37. NaYs-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey, Ewing, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross Gregg, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Hum phreville, Hunt, King, Kirkwood, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Morris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins,, Quigley, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Stid ger, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson, and Presi dent,-45. So the motion to strike out was rejected. The question then being on the second amendment of the committee, to wit: Add at the end of section 3 the following, "Nor shall the rights of conscience in any case be interfered with;" it was adopted. The question then being on the third amendment, to-wit: Strike out section 4; it was agreed to. Mr. GREGG moved to further amend the Report by striking out of section 3 the following words, "and place the means of instruction in the common branches of education for a suitable portion of each year, within the reach of all the children therein, of suitable age and capacity for learning;" which was agreed to. Mr. REEMEILIN moved to further amend the Report by striking out of section onhethe following words, "and no law shall ever be passed preventing the poor within the several counties, townships and districts of the State, from an equal participation in the schools, academries, colleges and universities, endowed wholly or in part from the revenues arising from donations, made by the U~nited States for the support thereof." Mr. REEMELIN. I wish to strike out these words because they seem to look to an equal division of the school fund amongst all the people throughout the State; and, if this is not the case, I am sure that all that these words express is fully embraced by the words of the section, which will be left. Another reason why I desire these words to be stricken out, ism because I dislike the word "poor." I want nothing of the kind in the onstitution in refer ence to the sub-, ject of education; for I think it will operate as an im pediment to the application of the law. No body wants to be poor; and I hope nobody will be, in re ferelice to ou r S ch ool laws. Mr. BROWN of Athen s. Th is provision, sir, is cont a in ed in the pre sent Constitution, unde r whi ch w he have livedfor t he last fifty years, without discov erieg th e evil to w hich th e gentleman from Hamilton [Mr. RPF.ELINt,] has alluded; it is contained also in the Ordinance of 1787; and I hope we are not prepar ed to revoke that compact wh icha was enltered nto between the United State s and thi s State, while it was under a territorial gov'ernmeiit. It was a part of the origin al compact-a con dition of th e d onation of our school lands, that the funds arising therefrom should be applied t o the support of schools open a like to all persons in the county, t ow nshi p, or district wher e thSre oaeds are situated. The thirty-sixth part of alh t he land sol d in every six miles square, wa s thus set apart by Congress, upo the con dition, that the la w should be passed to prevent the poor from enjoying the benefit of the benf schools to be supported out o ft he funds arising froe n the se lands. Mr. BENNETT. I am opposed to s triking out be cause if the motion should prevail the sense of the wbords remaining in the section would be rendered am biguous. Mr. SAWYER. By way of perfecting the words r osed to be stricken out, moved to strike out the word "poor," and insert in lieu thereof, the words "white youth." Mr. SAWYER said: I think the gentleman from HamTyilton should commence striking out where he pro poses to leave off. I think he should strike out these words: "and the same shall be open to scholars of all distinctions or grades," &c. I think we ought to understand, distinctly, that none shall enjoy the bene fit of these schools except white children. I think that we ought not to hold out to the colored race any h1Oee that we shall ever consent to fraternize with them i any manner whatever: for I tell gentlemen that whenever they undertake to elevate the negro to an equality with the white race, they might as well attempt to elevate the moral condition of the monkey or the horse. My philanthropy will carry me as far as any other man toward ameliorating the condition of the negroes, but any attempt to elevate them to an equality with ourselves must prove an utter failure, because it cannot be done without contravening the Ordinance of God. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. It has been provided that this fund shall be for the benefit of all the people. If gentlemen dislike the word "poor," and would pre fer the word "people," the same object would be effected. But to say'hat the youth only shall have the benefit of this fund, might defeat the object; for if that word was insered, the individual parent, who might be prevented upon some unlawful warrant from sending his children to school, could not complain' because not the individual man but the youth are to be benefitted. But as the law of Congress now stands, (and I hope its force and validity will be admitted here,) the schools must beepen for all classes. I protest against any attempt here to repeal, not only the Constitution and laws of the United States, but also the ordinance of 1787. Mr. STANTON. I do not regard this at all as a question of policy. It is a _question of power. There has been a donation of land fir educational purposes by the General Government; and in that donation great pains has been taken to secure the benefits arising from it to all the people, without discrimination. I undertake to say that this Convention has I 704 OHIO CONI VENTION 1)E-ATES-MoNDAY, FEBRUARY 24. YEAs-Messrs. Andrews. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Clark, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Grahanm, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geau. ga, Humphreville, Huniter, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Manon, Mason, Moreheadl, Morris, McCloud, MIcCormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Perkins, Quiglev, Ranney Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highlland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Swift, Taylor, Warren, Way and Woodbury-51. So the amendment was rejected. The question then being on striking out the followin g words, "and no law shall ever be passed preventing the poor within the several counties, townships, or districts of the State, from an equal participation in the schools, academies, colleges and universities, endowed wholly or in part from thle revenues arising from donations made by the United States, for the support thereof," Mr. REEMELIN, on lea ve, withdrew his a mend - ment. Mr. GREEN, of Ross, o oved to further amend the report by striking out all after the word eappropriation," in sect ion one. On which motion, Mr. HOLMES demanded the yeas and nays, which were o rdered, and resuILecd yeas 43, nays 4, as follows: YNAs-Messrs. Barnet of Mont gomery, Barnett of Preble, Brown of Carroll, Chaney, Ewing, Forbes, Graham,Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Jones, King, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, McCloud, Norris, Peck, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stilwell, Stidger, Strublb, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark,, W arren, Williams, Wilson, Worthinigton and President —43. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Calbill, Chambers, Clark,Cook,Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr,Gillett,Greene of Defiance, Hamliilton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Ma,non, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCornmick, Orton, Otis, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Swift, Taylor, Way and Woodbury-42. So the amendment was adopted. Mr. WARREN moved to further amend the report by striking out section two. On which motion, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 43, nays 39, as follows: YEAs — Messrs. Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Graham, Green of Ross, Gregg, Harlan, Hawkins, Holmes, Holt, Hootrman, Huinphreville, Jones, King, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Manon, Mitchell, N orris, Orton, Peck, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stickniey, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Stark, Wilson and Woodbury NAYs —Messrs. Andrews, ]3arbee,:Barnlet of Montgomery, Barnett osf Preble, Bates, Benlnett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Culrry, SEwart, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton, Henderson, H~itchcock of Geaulga, Hunt, Larsh, Lidey, Morehead, Morris, SicCloud, McCormick, Otis, Perkins, Quigley, Sawyr-E, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Sellweil, Taylpor, Tdhompon of Shelby, Way, Worthington arnd right or power to control or restrict the designations which have been made for the appropriation of this fund, and it certainly was so understood by the framers of the old Constitution. It seems to me that such an attempt miust be in direct contravention of the intention of the donors, and of the ordinance of 1787. I shall th erefore vote against this motion of the gentleman from Auglaize, [Mlr. St ewYErR,] whilst, at the same time,'tis known well enough that I have no idea,s n or never had, of uniting withd the blacks i n the common school with the whites. Mr. SAWYER. [Interposif,r,] D o I und erstand the gentleman to say, that ac cording to the term s of donation and the i ntention of Congress in the case, it was d es igned that all the population of the northwest, bl ack as well a s 5w4ite, shoul be enti tled to the privilege of going to school? Mr. STANTON. I have not before me the ordiuance of 1787, but I do understand the language of the twenty- fifth section of the eighth article of the ald Constitution, whichi is as follows: "The doors of said schools, academies, and universities, shall be open for th e reception of scholar s, students and teachers, of every grade, without any dist inction or preference whatever, contrary to the intent for which said donations are made." I undertake to say that we have no power to control the destination which Congress has given to this fund-that we have no right to deprive any portion of the children of Ohio of their proportionate share of this funand, and for this reason I shall vote against the amendment. w Mr. TAYLOR demanded a division. T h e qu estion then being first on striking out the word "poor, n H, "which Mr. ORTON demanded the yeas and nays, which w er e ordered, and resulted yeas 30, nays 54, as follows: YEA,SMessrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Brown of Carroll, Barnett of' Preble, Cahill, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Harlan, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Jones, King, Leadbetter, Lidey, Patterson, Peck, Reeinelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Williams, Wilson, Worthington and President-30. NAYS-MeSsrs. Andrews, Barbee, Bates, Ben. nett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Chambers, Clark, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hum-phreville, 1unit, Hunter, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Mianon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Perkins, Quigley, Scott of Harrison, Smith of FIighland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stilwell, Swift, Taylor, Warren, Way and Woodbury54. So the motion to strike out was rejected. Mr. SAWYER moved further to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out, by inserting after the word "poor" the word "white." Mr. TAYLOR demanded the yeas and nays upon this motion, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 35, nays 51, as follows: NAYs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Cabill, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hu-n't, Jones, King, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Patterson, Peck, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanbery, Stilwell, Siidger, Strutble, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Williams, Wilson, Worthington and President35., ,705 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 24. sists in this, the Legislature from time to time, have been making appropriations for the support of common schools-such as the proceeds arising from certain fines and forfeitures, which have never been made available for this object; and it would be the duty of the superintendent to look after these. We have now got decidedly the most important subject before us which we have considered this winter, and I hope it will be so regarded by all. Mr. WOODBURY. I hope this amendment will not prevail, unless some better reasons can be advauced for it than Those offered by the gentleman last up. The expense of these assistant superintendents which the section contemplates-one for each county-must be so,nething like forty thousand dollars a year, bes-hdes the salary of the State Superintendent and inecidentals. But besides this, before voting for this amendment, gentlemen ought to look and see the situation in which it will place us. These county superintendents would have the control of the whole business of common school teaching in their respective counties. And who doe s not see that it would be in their power to enforce the adoption of any set of school books which either their interest or their judgment might suggest. Impositions of this kind have already been practised upon one county in the State to my certain knowledge. where thousands of dollars worth of books were sold by means of an unlawful collusion between the superintendent and some eastern publisher. But this matter aside. What are the duties which we are to expect from a State superintendent and his assistants? The assistant in each county, I suppose, would be required to visit every school in each district of the county; and he might be expected to give something to each school in the way of advice as to the mode and manner of teaching. All of which he would set forth in his annual or semi-annual report-giving, also, some description of the several school houses, their furniture, their accommodations for water, fuel, ventil a tion, &o., and what kind of bcoks are used. And for all this the State is to pay forty thousand dollars a year. And now, I ask, in all seriousness, what will the Legislature do wit h such information as this? Mr. MANON. There seems to be a very great dsposition man ifested here to create new State officers. I would like for some one to tell us how many more officers it would require to be created, to absorb the whole amount of the school fund? Mr. RANNEY moved to amend the amendment by striking out all after the word "law." Mr. STIDGER. We have now reached a point in the investigation of the subject, in which perhaps, it may be proper for me to take some part. Hitherto I have foreborne to take any active part in this matter' for this reason, when the report was presented by myself, I expressly stated that I presented it as the parliamentary organ of the committee, and not because I was myself in favor of it. The committee had several meetings upon the subject of that report, and it seemed to be their general disposition to unite upon some proposition wh;.ch would accommodate conflicting views. Under these circumstances the report number two was presented —agreeing generally, with the first report; but there were some features in the report number twos to which I could not consent. But nowr, bv the action of the convention this second report has been made to conform to the original report al'most to the letter. So nearly does it approach to the first report now, that Ithinlk the convention could not do better than to adopt it. So the motion t o strike out section two was agreed to. I Mr. EWART mo ve d to fu r th er anelnd the Report by inserting in lieu of section 2, which was stricken out, the following: "SEc. 2. The General Assembly shall provide for the election, by the people, of one Superintendent of common schools." Mr. GREENE, of Defiance. The first section of the first Report of the Standing Committee upon this subject, provides for the same thing which is here contemplated; and, as it is rather more perfect in its details, ilf I c ould b e in or der, I would like to offer it as a substitute for the matter offered by t he gentleman from Washington, [Mr. EWART.] Mr. HUMPHREVILL E, (in his seat.) We won't have eit her of them. Mr. GREENE, of Def iance. I would like to take the sense:of the Committee upon this section, which I will re ad for information. The section is as follows: "SEC. 2. T he G eneral Assem bl y sh all p rovide for t he election, by the people, of a Su perintendent of common sc hools, wh os e te r m of office, duties and compensation shall Ie provi ded by law; and shall provide for the election or a ppointment of such assista nts, or other officers, as may be found necess ary, p rescribe their duty, term of office and compens ation." The PRESIDENT. The i gentl eman can apply his amendment to the am endment of the gentlema n from Washington, by proposing to stri ke ou t all acfter the words General Assembly," and inser t th e mat t er which h hhas read. Mr. EWART. I will accept the amendment. Mr. GREENE, of Defiance. The people of the State, through the press, and in various o the r ways, have spok en out, as I think, sufficiently st rong in favor of the electio n of s uc h a Sta te officer; and I think that no man wh o is at all acquainted with the con ditiont o of our schools throughout the several counties of the State, will say that county superintendents are not also needed. This experimnent was tried, some ten or fifteen years ago, for a couple of years, and then discon. tiniued, I know not for what reason. But I do know, that the published reports of the State Superintendent were nmet with the approval of all; and it must be in the recollection of every member that a recurrence to this feature of ourschool system was warmly recommended by a resolution of a respectable Convention of teachers, which was assembled last summer at Springfield. Mr. HOLT. I shall certainly vote for this section; and then when I can be in order, I shall move to strike out the whole, and substitute the original Report The original Report seems to have been signed by all the members of the Committee, except one —the gentleman from Union, (Mr. CURiRY,)-who only objected to it because he desired to make its provisions broader. If we do not have a Superintendent, I am decidedly of the opinion that our schools will always keep behind.Such an officer is needed for two purposes; first, for the advantage of his reports, and recommendations, and suggestions for the improvement of the system, which he will be required to make to the General Assembly; and secondly, his services will be needed for the sake of economy. I am confident, that for the last ten years, whenever the General Assembly have attempted to mend the school laws, two-thirds of that body did not know what they Were doing. But if they had had thle advice of a competent Superintendenta of this department, with reference to the defects and failures of the system, they would have been enabled to apply much more efficient remedies, and ill mucsh less time than thatsubject has hitherto occupied their attention. And the other advantage of such an officer con The ubject of the p ointment ofsidered by thate scoperin-mt tendent, was carefully considered by the commil,te& 706 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Mo)NDAY, FEtRUARY 24. last summer; and I believe the first section of that re port met with the concurrence of every member. The advantages to be derived from the services of such an officer, it seems to me would naturally occur to every mind, by the efficiency and uniformity which hlie would be able to imnpart to the workings of the whole system, The want of uniformity has been a matter of serious complaint-has added largely to the expensiveness of the system, and given cause for most of the objections to its adoption by the people at large. And this certainly would be obviated by means of a State Superintendent and his associates. I have no doubt that the reduction of the expenses of the sys tem which would result from uniformity in its opera. lioiis, would advance the interests of the school fund, and increase it in amount annually far beyond the sal aries of superintendents. Such was the case I believe when this plan was tried in 1836-7. We had then a most efficient officer in the capacity of State Superin tendent, [Mr. Samuel Lewis,] and he submitted a doc ument to the Legislature, which contains more infor mation upon this subject, than could be collected out of all the State papers which have been published since. I could wish that we had the information con tai ned in that report, now before this convention. I hope the convention will adopt this first section,. and then, by striking out the two first lines of the sec ond section, the report number two will be made to conform to almost exactly to the language of the orig. tnal report. Mr. LARSH moved to perfect the words proposed to be stricken out, by striking out the word -shall," and inserting in lieu thereof the word "'ma3;" which was rejected. The question then being on the amendment to the amendment: Mr. GREENE of De fi ance, demanded the yeas and nays upon this question, which were ordered, and re sulted-yeas 61; nays 19, as follows: Yb As-Messrs. Andleows, Bar bee, Bar ne t of Mont Onery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensder. ure,Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clarkk,Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ew in g, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck, P erk ins, Ranisey, Re,melin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanber yt i w el, S tilwel, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Way, Woodbury and President-61. NAYS-Messrs. Brown of Athens, Curry, Greene of Defiance, Gr reoesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Hootman, Humphrevile, Hullt, Hunter, Larsh, Lawrence, Manon, Orton, Q,jigley, Stebbins, Stidger, Thompson of Shelby and Wilson-19 So th e am endment was adopted. The question the n being upon the a doption of Mr. EWART's amendment as amended. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. If we had time to go on and establish a system of common schools for the State, I could have no objection to this proceeding; and p erhaps, if we had b egan on th e first of May last, we coul d hav e p erf ected anystem whi ch would have lasted for all time. But really now, since we have agreed to adjourn in two weeks from this day, it seems to me it would be bette~r to rest this matter of a creation of a State Superintendant entirely with the people and the Legislature. It is certainlly entirely competent for the Legislature to authorize thle eiection of this affair.. Thea did, at one time, create an office of this kind, and it was filled by an individual who made as-good an offiser as any that could be selected now for such a place; 46S and such was the outcry against him, that he Could'not be continued longer than two years. Since that. time, many individuals have been endeavoring to restore tile law for the appointment of this officer, but it has bheet steadily resisted by the Legislature and the.people. So, zealousy has this matter be en pressed upon t he pubicd attention, that if the people ohad desired it, they cer tainly would created th e office. But now the convention i s called upon to create this office, and provide for the election of superintendents of common schools, when there is ed o law to control them, a nd define their duties. It seems to me, ay I have before remarked. that we had be t ter leave the whole subject to the General Assembly —not only be cause we have not time to mature it, but because the Dresent proposition would look too much like providing official places merely t hat th ey may be filled by paroic ular individuals. Mr. EWART tnoved the previous question. The question then being, "shall the main questiona be now put;" it was agreed to. The question thus being onl Mr. EWART's amend ment as amended. Mr. GREENE of Defiance, demanded the yeas and nnys, which were ordered and resulted-v eas,29; n see 57, as follows: YEASA.-Messrs. Andrews, Barnett of Prheble, M nett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Curry, Ewart, Fartr, Green e of Defiance, Holt, Hootlnan, Hunat, Hunter, Lawrence, Mason, Morehead. McCloud, Or ton, Patterson, Qui gley, RaTp n ley, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Swift, Taylor and President-29. NAYS.-Messrs, Barb ee, Bar ne t of Montgeme,r, Bates, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dor sey, Ewing, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlanu, Hawkins, Hen derson, Hitchcock o f Gea uga, Hollm es, Humnphreville, Jones, King, Kirkwo od, La Larsh, Larwil, L eech, Lead better, Lidey, Maron. Mitchell, Morris, McCormick, Norris, O tis, Peck, Perkins, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, S cott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Way, Wilson and Woodbury-57. So the amendment was rejected. The question then being on ordering the section to be engrossed; Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas anid nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 67, nays 18, as follows: YEALs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hitchicoc-k of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman. Humphreville, Hunter, Jones, Kin-, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Reenmelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglai7e, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Struble, Swift, Tay!or, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson of Stalk, Warren, Way! ~Vilson,} Woodbury, and President-67. qAy~s2-Messrs. Bhickensderfer, Curry, Ewring, Forbes, Creesbeck, Harlan, Hunt, Manon, Mitchell, McCormuick, O~rton, Otis, Quligiey, Ranneyr, Scott of Hat risonl, Smiith of Wyan~dot, Stickney, anxd S~tidg~er —18. So the Report was ordered to be engrossed. And on motion, ordered to be read the third time on Tuesday the 25Sth inst. Mr. HOLMEE3from the standing committee on Ap ,,7,07 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-NMoNDAY, FEBRUARY 24. portionment to which was recommitted Report No. rating cities an . oA that subject, submitted the following: counties, and fo - REPORT NUMBER T W O, after fall below, REPORT N~UMBER TWO, of Representati OF TTIE STAN'DING COMMITTEE ON APPORTIONME SEo. 10. Whe Sec. 1. The apportionment of this State shall be cient populatio made every ten years after the year 1851, in the fol- representation, lowing tanner:-The whole population of the State, which it is tak as ascertained every ten years by the federal census, tled to a Senatoe or in such other mode as the Legislature may direct, senatorial distr sliall forever be divided by the number'one hundred," ment. and the quotient shall be the ratio of representation' SEC. 11. The in the House of Representatives, for ten years next any time, exceo ensuing from such apportionment. necessary to efft SEc. 2. Every county having a population equal tors, it shall be to one half of said ratio, shall be entitled to one Rep- tion seven, for t resenitativ(; every county containing said ratio, anid S>:c.'12. For tiree-lourtlhs over, shall be entitled to two Represen- portionment of -atives; every county containing three times said as hereinafter p ratio, shall be entitled to three Representatives, and made in the pri so on, requiring after the first two, an entire ratio for tablished, or in each additional representative. S-c. 13. The SEc. 3. When any county has a fraction above the State, or any twt entire ratio, so large, that by being multiplied by the prior to the Oct number of sessionis in the decennial period, viz, five, cennial period t it will produce an aniount sufficient to entitle the coun-:ratio of represe ty to one or miore Representatives, as follows: requir- tives in the Ge iig a whole ratio for each additional fractinlal Rep cennial census, resentative, such additional Representatives shall be the number eac apportioned amoung the several sessions of the decen- to elect to each nial period, in the following Itoanier: if there be only next ensuing te we additi:(inal Representative, he shall be allotted to the same to be the fifth session of the decennial period; if there are directed by law two, they shall be allotted to the fouiirthli atnd third ses- Rep n sions respectivelyv; if three, to the fourth, second. and first sessions respectively; if four, to the fourth, third, second, and first sessions respectively. SEC. 4. Every cou ity which shall be joined to anyoth. COUNTIES. er county or counties for a Representative district, dur. tng one decennial period, shah, if at the next decennial period it have acquired sufficieni,t population to be entitled to a a separate representation, become a separate Adams.......... Representative district, Provided, there shall be left In A len I ~~~~~~Ashiland......... the district from whichl it shall have been separated, a Ashtabula...... population sufficient for a Representative, butt no such Athens.......... ohunge shall be itiade, except,it the regular decsiial uglaize....... Belmont...... period for the appottiotirient of Representatives. Bro we n....... SEC. 5. Ii it be found at the determination of any Butler........... subsequent ratio, that a county, heretofore entitled to Carrot.......... a separate representation, has less than the number re- Champaign..... aIC lark........... quired for a Representative, according to the new ratio, 1 Clerkmont........ then said county shall tie attached to the couaty adjoins- Clinton......... ing it having tihe smallest tlumber of inhabitants, and C('olumbiana.... thile representation of said district shall be determinied Coshoctoii.. - as hereiin provideil. CCuyahoga rd....... SEC. 6. Any county having w-ithits its limits a city CDarkh....... or corporate town, with a nuniber of inhabitants equal Delaware....... S~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~~~Eec 6.Anconyhvnwthtit mtsact uYahoa247+.............Ii 1... to a whole ratio, at any decennlial period, and still leav ilug in the county, a population equal to a whole ratio Fayette..... at such decennial period, such city or corporate town Franklin....... shall be entitled to a separate representation, to be de Gallia. 6 termined as herein provided. Greeneauga.......... SEc. 7. If, by any contingency it shall ever occur, Guernsey........ that in any session, the number of Representatives shall Hamilton....... exceed one hundred and twenty, then a reduction shall Cincinnati city. he effected by withdrawing the additional mnembers Hancrock........ which shall have been added for the smallest fractions Highlland........ successively, until the number of members shall be re- Hocking........ duced to one hundred and twenty. Huron......... SEC. 8. The ratio for Senators shall forever here- Jackson I. after be ascertained by dividing the whole population Vinton ( * me the State by the number thirty-five. Jefferson........ SEc. 9. The tame rules shall apply, for apportion- Knox 11 ing the fractions of senaturial districts, and for sepa- Lakerecc...... ixig the fractions awrence.........15,47 l.............. r Fractional Membc:s. 1st. 2d. |3.4th.| 1 ..... _. oo... o ~ ........7.....1....,.1 ................ o..o ............ 1........o.. ........ 1 1'. ................. oo....... 1 1 ............ oooo ....1~........,-.... 1 1 1.... i.... ....t.........ooo oo .......oo,..o,.. *1 1 I1.... .......................,o o~... Z................:.... ...................' ''''''1 1,.... ................ ..,,....... e.,.,.o.. 18,943 12,116 23,896 28,767 18,217 1,341 34.51 9 27,334 320-, 7)4 17,685 19,743 22,174 30,449 18,83i7 33,6011 25,671 18,177 48,105 20,277 21,814 18,578 1 2.776{ 42,,880 17,064 ]7,82:1 21,947 :?0,47 2 41,412 J 15,438 16,7 74 20, 160 925 781 14,119 20,458 26,203 21,97,-6 29,133 28,870 14 655 15,247 708 d corporate towns front their re-,poctive r anii(-,xit)g districts which may here the senatorial ratio, as in the- House i Yes. ienever,tnv county shall have a suffln to entitfe it to a separate senatorial and also to leave in the district from a population sufficient to enti uch county shall become a sepazwe ict at any regular decennial apporii c number of Senators shall never, at forty members, and if it become a reduction of the number of nadone in the manner provided in sm he House of Representatives. the first teii years after.1851, the ap Senators arid Representatives, shall rovided, and iio change shall be made, ticiples of representation as herein,es-. the' districts for senatorial purposes, e Goveriior, Auditor, and Secretfiry of, o of tlicin, -,hall, at least six months t(iber election of 1861, and at each dethereafter, ascertain and determine the ntatioii for Senators and Repre.,,eiit-a neral Assembly., according to the de. upon the priiic. le herein provided, li county or distrpillt shall be entitled branch, and for what years within -the nyearr, and the Governor shall cause published in such maiiiier as stl be reiaentative Apportionment. Regul M,embers. Popula tion. I I I I I 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 5 1 1 1 1, I I I I I I I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, FEBRUARY 24. 33. Seneca, Crawford and Wyandot..................56451 34. Mercer, Auglaize, Allen, Van Wert, laulding, De. fiance and Willinms.......................52,6.2 35. Hancock, Wood, Lucas,Fulton,Henry and Putnam. 56,70t3 G. W. HOLMES, Chairman, WILLIAM LAWRENCE. H. S. MANON, ],. SWVIFT, JO)S. M. FARR, G. VOLNEY DO)RSEY, THOMAS PATTERSON, H. H. GREGG, JOHN E. HUx'r. E. T. STICKNEY, JOHN J. HOOFMAN. Mr. HOLMES submitted the following, which was agreed to: Resolved, That the Printer to the Convention be instructed to have the Report No 2, of the committee on Apportionmient printed forthwith in advance of all other matters. Mr. McCLOUD submitted the following proposition relative to a SENATORIAL APPORTIONMENT. SEc. 1. For the purpose of Representation in thte Sencte, the';tate shall t,c divided into thirty-four Senatorial districts, as followss: 1. The first seven wards of the city of Cincinnati shall constitute the first district, and shall be entitled to one Sed ator. 2. All that portion of the city of Cincinnati not included in ihe first district, -hall constitute the second district, and be entitled to one Senator. 3. All that portiont of Hamilton county, not included within the corporate linmits of the city of Cincinnati, ahnll coilstitute the third district and be entitledl:to one Senator. 4. The counties of Butler and Warren shall constitute tho fourth district, and be entitled to one Senator. 5. The counties of Montgomery and Preble shall constitute the fifth district, and be entitled to one Senator. 6. The counties of Miami, Darke and Shelby shall consti tute the sixth district, and be entitled to one Senator. 7. The counties of Mercer, Allen. Putnam. Au,laize ansl Hancock shall constitute the seventh district, and be entitled to one Senator. 8. The counties of Van Wert, Paulding, Defiance. Williams. Fulton, Lucas, Henry, Woodl and Ottawa shall consti1ute the eighth district. and be entitled to one Senator. 9. The counties of Sanlusky, Huron and Eriebhall coiistitute the ninth district, and be entilled Lo one Sena'tor 10. The counties of Seneca, Crawford and Wyandot shall constitute the tentlh district. and be entitled to one.enator. 11.'I'he counties of Richliland atid Ashland shall constitute the eleventl iistri(;t, and be eniitled to one Senator. 12. Thle coutlties of Knox, Mori-ow,ind Marion shall constitute the twelfth district, and be entitled;o one Senator. 13. The counties of Hardin, Unioii, Delaware aid Logan shall constitute the thirteenth district, and be entitled to one Senator. 14. IThe counties of Champaign, ClarlI and Green shall constitute the fourteenth district, and be eititled to one Senator. 15. The counties of Franklin and Madison shall constitute the fifteenth district, and be entitled to orne Seniator. 16. The counties of Pickaway and Ross shlall constitute the sixteentli district, ard be entitled t- one Seniator. 17. The counties of Clintoti, Fayette and Highland shall constitute the seventeenth district, and be entitled to one Senator. 18. The counties of Clermo-nt an,d Brown shall constitute the eighteenall district. and be elltitled to one Senator. 19. The counties of Adams, like, Scioto an-d Lawrence shall constitute the nineteenth district, and be entitl.d to one Senator. 20. The counties of Jackson, Gallia, -1eigs and Athens shall constitute the twentieth district, and be entitled to one .Senator. 21.''becounties of Fairfield. Hock~ing and Vtiuton shall cons:titute the'twenltyfirsl~ distridt, and be entitledl to one~ Senator. 22. The countic~ of Muskingum ardl Perry shall con~stitute the twenty second dlistr'ict, and be enltitled to one ~enatot. 23. The counties of Ljicklog and (Coshocton shall conlsti. tute tile twenty-ihsird district, andl he enltitled1 to one Senlato>r. 0)4. I'he couultie.r of %Vaynle andt Holmxes shlall GconstitUto the twenty-fourth district, andu be entitledl to one Senator. 25. Thle counties of Lorain ai~,d Medina snail conlstitute the twenty-fiftn district, andl be enltitledl to one Senator. L~ickiing......... Mgan........... Lorain.......... Lucas Fulton........ Mnadisoe......... Mahoni ng....... Alarion.......... eredina.......... Meigs........... Miami.... Monroe......... Montgomery.... Morgan......... Molrow......... Muskingum..... Perry........... Pickaway....... Pike......... Portage..... Preble........... Richland........ Ros............ Sandusky....... 8ciolto........... Seneca.......... Shelby.......... Stark......... Summit......... Trumbull........ Tuscarawas..... Union.......... Warren......... '% ashington..... Wayne.......... Wyandot Ha rdin Mercer Van wert I * —--- Paulding) Defiance Williams' Putnam Henry *-...... Wood Ottawa 3 Totals....... 3d. 4th. ..... o.o. ...... *. 1 1 1 1 SENATORIAL APPORTIONMENT. R.ATIO 56,598. I and 2. City of Cincinnati....................115,498 .3. Hamilton county. 41,412 4. uMontgomery and Warren...................... 59915........ 5. Mon~tgomery and r~e~,i~:.:::::::::::::::':: 0o,93 6. Clermiont and Brown..............3. 5^.83 7. G een, Clinton and Fayette.................... 53,5.0S 8. Noss and Highland............. 57,865 9. Adams, Pike, Scioto and JackIson.............. 6,51 10. Lawrence, Gallia, Meigs and Vinton..............5 9,624 11. Athe,;s, Ho,'-king aid Fairfield.................. 62,,93 12, Frani lin ind Pickaway.................. 6:3,990 1it. Clark Champaign anid Madison.................. 51.921 14. Miami. I)arke and Shelby..................... 59, 90 1'. Logan, Union, Marion and Hardin................ 51,5 1i 16 Washington and Morgan.....................58,15 17. Muskingumand Perry....................... 65,827 18. DelawareandLicking.......................60659 19. Knox and Morrow............ 4)........... 110, 20. Coshocton and Tuscarawas................... 57 403 21. Guernsey and Monroe....................... 58,8.9 2 22. Belmont and Harrison.......................54,7ig 23. Carroll and Stark.........5.................,573 24. Jefferson and Columbiana....................2,.. 734 25. Trumbull and Mahoning.......................... 51,7.Sn 26. Ashtabula. Lake and Geatiga.................... 61,245 27. Cuyahoga..........................4.......48,105a '8. Portage and Summ1it............................ 5 t,86)8 29. Medina and Lorain.......................... 5054.. 3o. Wayne and Holmes........................., 5 35 t 31. Ashland and Richland.......................54,70 32. Huron, Erie, SanduEky and Ottawa.59,310~ 3,31tC - f2,00 I I I I i I i I I I 709 [OONTI.-,iUED.] Regular 1 Fracti,)nal Members. Mem .COUNTIFS- Popul"' tion. lot. 2d. 5tb. ..i. .18,845 19,168 26,(191 20,161 10' 012 2.1,733 12 554 '24:4.33 17,960 24,957 2 8.'i 6 7 38.2 7 28 593 20,240 45,053 20,774 21,110 10,955 24..187 21,748 30.877 32,084 14,529 18,729 27,105 13,956 39,888 27,481 .30,540 31,7q2 12,205 25,560 33 045 19.420 12,505 ]G.-,50. 10,653 12,457 1) I I :... I.. I . i. I.. . I ..i. ..i. I I ..i. ..i. I I .. i. .. i. .. i. I I I I 1 1 i 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 I I I I 1 1 1 2 1 1. I I I I I I I ... .i. I I .... I.,.. I.... 1.... 92 i 4 19 I I 16 i 14 ...... 4 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TU.SDAY, FEBRUARY 25. Mr. CURRY. My preference would be to give a silen t vote upon this question, but the peculiar position in which I find myself placed, forbids it. I al a member of the standing committee on Edui-cation, by which this report purports to have been anade. Tln' names of the members of the committee are not appended to it,/but the name of the chairman appears!ni the caption, and the language of that caption is such as to convey the impression that the report was e)tncurred in and made by the entire comnaittee. Such, however, was not the fact. I never concurred in. the report. I was not notified of the meeting at which it was adopted, if indeed any meeting took place. I never saw oi- heard of it till this morning, when it was laid upon my table in printed form. I raise flo question of parliamentary courtesy with the chairman of the committee. It had already been ascertained that we could not agree, and therefore my presenice in committee might have been supposed to be uinnecessary. But I protest against being represented as havin_ concurred in a report about which I was not conlulted, and which I never saw or heard of till after it had been framed, introduced here, printed, and laid upon the desks of members. I shall feel impelled to vote against the passage of the article in its present form. Not, I bg- gentle men to understand me, from any indisposition to fbrther the objects which have called it into existence, but because according to the best of my juidgment,, it will prove totally insufficient and powerless to secure those objects. In my opinion the great object to be attained is a system of education. general and conaplete, which shall extend its advantages to all the children of the State, and afford to each an opportunity to secure all the benefits which it affords. Tlhe other dav a gentleman uipon this floor, in a few words, embodied my idea of the whole matter. He said the children are the property of the State, and should'be educated at the expense of the State. Mr. HENDERSON. If the children of citizens are the property of the State, would the gentleman, [Mr. CHIoY,3 employ the public authority to oblige the children to attend the schools, or w ould he leave that to the caprice of children and parents? Mr. CURRY. I have no idea but that if the proper provisions were made, all the children itl the State would speedily come in and partake of the blessings of education. It might not take place imnediately or all at once, but such influenices would be set at work as would by a sure, though gradual process, inspire both parenits and children with a zeal to itl prove the opportunities placed before them. The Conve-ntion will pardon me, Mr. President, when I say that it seems to me there is a great deal of indifference nmanifested in this body in regard to this matter,whichl appears to me so all-imnportanit, and of such momentous consequence. It is not so upon someA questions, I admit. When the evils of incorpora tioIis, and the wrongs inflicted upon the people by tihe banks, become the subject of remark, gentlenmen be come excited at once, and the interest becomes intense and absorbing. Not so, however, in regard to educa, tion. Yet tlhere is no subject more worthy of their thought-not one fraught with an instrumentality mo re potent upon the future destinies of the State, acid the happiness of the people. The records of the State . show the fact that of the whole population of the X State, one person in every thirty-five of tile adults can i neither read nor write; and in the statistics of the s Penitentiary it appears that more than one-half of the convicts are entirely illiterate. A multitude of suct R facts might be adduced to show that ignorance is the fruitful parent of crime, but this is of itself enough to prove that education has a tendency to prevent 26. $he counties of Cuyahoga and Lake shall constitute| the twernty-sixith district, and be entitled to one Senator. 27. The counties of Geauga, Portage and Summit shall constitute the twenty-seventh district, and be entitled to one Senator. 28. The counties of Stark and Caioll shall constitute the twenty ei.bth district, and be entitled to one Senator. 29. Tihe counties of l'uscarawas and Harrison shall con stitute the twenty ninth district, and be entitled to one Senator. 30 The countiesof Guernsey and Monroe shall constitute the thirtieth district, aid be entitled to one Senator. 31. -The counties of Morgan and Washington shall constitute the thirty-first district, and be entitled to one Senator. 32. The counties of Belnont and Jefferson shall constitute the thirty-second district, and be entit ed to one Sencator. 33. The counties of Columbiana add Malh,ning shall con. stitute the thirty-third district, and be entitled to one Senator. 34. The counties of Ashtabula. and Trumbulleshall constitute the thirty-fourth district, and'be entitled to one Senator. SEc. 2. The Gene ral Assembly at their first session after the year A. D. 1560, ant at their first session after the taking of the census at each decennial period thereafter, may, fair the purpose of equalizing the population ir. the several (districts, but for no other purpose, and at no other times, alter or chalnge the boundaries of the Senatorial districts. C. McCLOUD. On motion of Mr. McCLOUD, the proposition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. CHAMBERS moved that the Convention resolve itself into a committee of the whole; which was disagreed to. Mr. LAWRENCE moved that the Convention adjourn. On which motion Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 51, nlays 36, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Blickeiiderfer, Chambers, Curry, Dorsey, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Harlan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humnphreville, Hunt,'unter, Jone., King, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell, Morehead, McCormnick, Noarris, Orton, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Raniney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer,Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highlanid, Stanbery, Stantoin, Stickniey, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, and Woodbury-51. NAYs, —Messrs. B3ariet of Montgomery, Bates, Ben - nett, Browin of Athens, Cahill, Cllaiiev, Clark, Cook, Ewart, Ewinig,i, Farr, Forbes. Gllett, Gregg, Groes beck, Hamilton, Hawlkins, Kirkwood, Larwill, Mailon, Alason, Morris, McClouid, Patterson, Reerneliln, Smith of Warreln. Smith of Wyandot, Stebbinis, Stilwell, Struble, Swift., hllopsoil of Slhelby, Warren, Way, Wilsop, anid President —S6. So the motion prevailed, and the Convention adjourned until to-morrow morning, at 9 o'clock. ,, I 710 ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-THIRD DAY TUESDAY,r,,L-,b. 25,1851. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Convent-ion met piir-,uaiit to adjournment. Mr. GRAY I a petition from Milo Harris and ei(,btv,.-even otlier citizens (,f Lake county, prayiiiz tba't clause b(- inserted in the Dew Constitution, ro liibitid- the Legislature from passidg,, an-y law le izitlg t -s; wbieli, on mo al F-pi:rituous liquor tion, w -a; laid on the table. Mr. OTIS presented sundry petition-, from John W. Foster and eigbtv-seven malesi and Mary Goodbue and ei!zlitv-oiie Iferi-)ales of Summit coun;ty, on the same Subject;'whicli, on motion, ere laid on the table. Report No. 2, of the conii-nittee on Ed cat' l'Ion, -was r,ead the tliir(l,titi-ie. The question being on the passage of the Report: OHIO -CONVENTION DEBATES-TIJE.DAY, FEBRUARY, 25. breaches of the laws, and that it has a mighty infitneonce in qualifying and inducing the masses of the people to do those things that are best calculated to ensure their prosperity and their happiness. Gentlemen seem to overlook this fact. Some of them insist that it is not proper for a body like this, delegated merely to construct a code of organic law, to go so minutely into detail. It would be better, they say, to throw the whole matter into the hands of the Legislature. This is a very convenient argument, and has been found, on some occasion or other, iii the mouth of almost every member of this Convention. Gentlemen differ. And they sometimes very inconsistent. In some matters they are desirous to go into very great minuteness of detail-and those too, matters of infinitely less consequence than this. When a gentleman has a favorite project, he cares little how minutely its details are fixed in the Constitui. tion. It is tlihen the opponents of the measure who complain of the introduction of matters of detail into organic law. In the construction of the judiciary department, there has been a descent into an extreme minuteness of detail-they prepare to visit those who corammit an infraction of the law with condign punishtmeut, while they are unwilling to expend any labor upon measures to prevent the crimes they are so anxious to punish. There is, Mr. President, another reason why I shall feel constrained to vote against this article. Vi he n the report was in Committee of the Whole, an eftort and a successful o..e was made to strike out that part relttlug to the education of teachers of common schools. Tisil was done in the face of facts to show the existence of great cause of complaint on accoutit of the incompetency of those teachers. Now with these facts, it view, it moust be admitted., that Iio sys'.emn can be to a great extentcffieacious, unless it embrace the education of those who are to become teachers, and that if some provistion is not cMade for this purpose all we can otherwise do will be comparatively useless. I thast be constrained to say therefore, that I sincerely believe thatas the report Itow stands, its operation will be entirely inefficacious, and its result tiseless-that it will in fact be, to th, people of the State 15o better than so nuch blank paper. And so believing,I call up on all those who desire to see a sound and efficiett system of edueatiot in the State, to vote against it. Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, moved to recommit the report to the committee thati reported it, with istructions to strike out thelfollowing words-'"nor shall the rights of conscierce be in any way interfered with. Thequestioin then being on the recommitment with tnstructioiis: Mr. SMITH. I believe that the friends of educat ioni throughout the State will desire to hleave this provision stricken out. If retained, I believe it will be a sourcer of more difficulty in the State than anything which the constitution contains. Mr. MANON. If the report is to be recommilted, I should like to have it do,e with iustructions to strike out the whole of it. Mr. REEMILIN. I will assure the gentleman from Wyandot, (Mr. SMITIf,) that if hlie entertains a desire to secure the existence, efficiency and usefulness of the corkmion s chool system of the Stulte of Ohio for twelbay years to co,,e, Ale had better leave this provisionl ill. [f it is throwat out, there is illfinsite danger tha~t such Squarrels as woe have!and here;11 thils City will be ebxClted all over tihe State. Ia1 CjCilncnati and;11 New York divisions have arises which threatened to destroy not only the usetluless of the schools. but to disturb the' peace of society. It is not for tue to say how far the jealousies that gave rise to the disturbance had any real foundation. The fact that they did exist is notori Stos and it is equally true that in New York, they were healed by a provision like this: And what is the danger from it? It may do a g reat deal of good-it ca n do no injury. That the do ctrine is a true one, ge ntlemen cannot deny. I was glad to hear the remarks of the ge n tleman from Union. It is our duty to lay the fo undatio n of a sy stem capable of expanding itself as the State advances, and of supplying all its wants; and to establish one M sll r th a ro t shall growa e with the growth, and strengthen with the strength of the State, will be far better than to build up a ha,-sty fabric, more rapidly than is required, to fall by its own weight before it a cquire s the strength to stand alone. Ttye question then being on the m otion of Mr. SMI TH of Wyandot. Mr. WOODBURY demanded th e previous qu e stion whicn was secotnded. The question the n be i ng, sh al l the main question be no w put, a division was demanded, and the previous question prevailed; yeas 54, nays notcouniited The question then being on the passage of the report. Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the veas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 54, nays 37, as follows: YE&AS-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Blair, Brown of Athenis, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings. Cook. Dorsey, Ewart, Gillett, Graharn, Gray, Gr,eene of Defiance, Gretn of Ross, Gregg, Hamiton, Hawkins, Henderson. Hurnter. Kennon, KiLog, Kirkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Leadbetter, Litley, Loulon, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Reenielin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highlland, Stanbery, Stanton, Stebbin-, Swift Taylor, Thompson of Shelby, Thompson, of Stark, Warren, Way, Woodbury, and President.-54. NAYS-Messrs. Andrews, Burnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennjiett, Blickensdeifer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Curry, Ewxiing, Farr, Forbes; Groesbeck. Harlan, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Ifootman, Humphrevil le, [-lit,.Tones, Lawrence, Leech, Mainoni, Mitchell, McCormick, Orton, Otis, Qiiigley, Rannev, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Smnith of v, arran, Srmith of Wyandot, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Williams, and Wortlhington,-37. So the Report was passed. And on motion wasereferred t) the committee o0 Rev'sic,a, Et)rollment and Arrang, ment. Mr. WOODBURY moved that the Convention re. consider the vote by which the report of the select committee on the subject of retailing ardent spirits was passed. The question then being on the reconsideration: Mr. WOODBURY. I desire merely to state the reasons that have induced me to move this reconsideration. In the first place there can be no doubt but the subject is entirely under the control of the General Assembly. That does not appear to be denied; and if such is tiiecase there can be no strong and overruling necessity for putting it in the constitution —at least not such a necessity as ought to do away with other strong reasons the other way. The object sought to be accomplished, I concur in, as fully, as any mnember of this convention, and under the influence of that feeling, I voted for th e passage of the article:. But thlere are other considera ions of equal moment. If this provisions should operate to defeat this constitution with the people, it would fall with it, and with the rest of the resullts of our labors, would be destroyed. I am fully of the opinlion that this provision would create votes against the constitution for this reason, that a different constructionl will be put upon it by the people than I myself give it. Now it appears to mne that we 711 12 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. are not destinied to have a great many votes to spare firom Ashtabula, [Mr. WooDBUvRY,] voted for the artiupon the submission of this constitution, and such be- cle. Yet, in one short night, he tells us that his ing the case, it is the part of prudence at least, to omit opinions are totally changed. The results of what everything that is fully within the power of the legis- we are bound to believe to be a diligent examination lature anti which, at the same time is calculated to add running through months of time, are swept away in a weight to the instrument we are constructing. a siingle night, and a new opinion has sprung up in Tile result of tihe trial of these temperance questions its place, diametrically opposed to his former one. with the people, has not always met the expectation of The conversion of Saul, or the rapid luxuriance of those who have urged them on. In the part of the Jonah's gourd, are the only parallels to so rapid a state in which I reside-and which is as strongly in fa- transformation. Such must be the case, or we are vor of temperance as any other section, the result of bound to suppose that he has been actuated by mosuchi a trial was a defeat of the advocates of the aboli- tives of a character still more questionable Other tion of the trafficr. The question was tried in ten coun. wise, why did he give his vote for the bill? Dd lihe ties, in o0ne of which I reside. InI that, the friends of contemplate this motion to reconsider? Or did he temiiperanee were perfectly sanguine of success, yet vote for it in the hope that its enemies would be contrary to all their expectations they were defeated. stronger than its friends, and that it would. be defeat'lI'he people are not aware of all the opposition that ed? Aud yet he sustains himself among his temperance c:tn be arrayed and combined upon such a subject. friends! 'lThey do not count the numbers, not only of the drum- The gentleman, [Mr. WOODBUaT,] gives as the reakt.n, the vile and the abandoned, but of the moderate son fer his change of opinion, that if this article is qud respectable drinkers who will rise up and defend retained, the Constitution will be defeated. NoTr so, egainst what they deem atn attack upon their liberties. sir! NOT so! On the contrary, it will carry strength Anxious therefore as I am to extend the principles of in its favor. The people will be aroused by its pro-, teiperance-aniixious as I am to secure their final tri- visions, and will come up and aid to sustain a Constiuniumph, I do nlot look npoli it as wise or prudent, or even tution that has embodied in it so glorious a provision j,ist to sacrifice this constitution in a vain attempt to in aid of down-trodden and suffering humanity give them what will be, after all, but a mere temporary le insists, further, that the whole matter i fully ascendaucy. I hope therefore the motion to reconsider within the control of the Legislature. It may be sowill prevail. but is it not also fully within our control? We want 'Mr. LAWRENCE. I hope, Mr. President, that the to place it here. if we have a right to do so, and that motion of the gentleman front A.shtabula [Mr. WOOD I we have that right I appeal to the votes and acts of uaRy,] will not prevail. I am unwilling, sir, at this the gentlhman himself. He. at least, will not deny momelt, when the mails and the imagnetic wires have that he aided to vote this bill into thle Constitution. l)e.:el spreading throughout the State the joyfutl news But we want to place this provision in the organic. of the step we have taken, to banish the monster in- law, out of the reach of the Legislature-out of the temperance from the land-news, sir, thathas carried vicinity of those laws which sanction crime, and give hope aid pleasure into many a broken heart: I am a license to commnit imtmorality-that upon one page unwilling I sav, that that news should be contra- define and punish a crime, and upon another provide dieted, and those hopes disappointed and dashed to that for money it may be committed —that contain tlie earth. Sir, I had yesterdav my forebodings of a n inconsistelncy as glaring as if the city of Cincinst'ite of things like tlhis. I had my fears that the nati should, by one act, make gamnbling a penal ofb-ittl3 was not won, fair as the victory seemed to be. fence, and by another provide for the license of gamI warned the friends of temperance not to be flapping bling houses. yet. I felt that there was a pressure from without It seems to me, Mr. President, that in view of the and from within upon this Convention, that ere long evil, the crime and the degradation of intemperance, would mrake itself felt, and which would resist withl it becomies the friends of'the cause to stand shoulder the force of despair the efforts of the friends of tem- to shoulder. I belong, sir, to no temperance society. peranice. Sir, I was not mistaken. The brief vie- nor have I ever done so. My zeal in the cause is a tory of yesterday is to be followed by a fiercer strug- zeal of my own, induced by my belief of its worthl gle to-day. We have scotched the snake, but have and of tihe demand it makes upon all who love their niot killed it. It lives with its forces ready for a des- species, anid who desire to raise man when he has beperate rally, and its venom all undimiiished, while come fallen and degraded, to become again a useful; in experience it is even more potent than before. Still member of society, and to carry peace and contentI say to the friends of temperance. be strong, be val- ient, and comfort ayd joy, to those homes that have imit, trust in the goodness of your cause, and ill the been rendered desolate by the ravages of intemperaid of that Providence that ever defends the cause of ance. I hope. therefore, that the motion to recosider' right, and virtue, and morality, and you will triumph will not prevail-that we shall respond to the pravers yet, in spite of force without, and false friends with- of the multitude of petitioners wiio have laid tCheir' ine. requests before us, and claimed our interposition in Mr. President, I amn surprised at the position of the behalf of suffering humanity, and that we shall faithgentlemalll who tlade this motion. This subject has full abide the result of the great experiment we yesfi. mo.tlhs and months been agitated both in and out terday determined to try. To the friends of temper;, he Conventioni. Petitions cotiulig from all part ance upon this floor, I again say STAND FIRM t a,;'he State have been daily presented in the hearing ]lr. SAWYER. I have a proposition to make to (of eentlemen, and read in their presence. They have the friends of temperance. They are sanguine of the hadl an opportunity to examine it in all its lights and success of the experiment they desire to try with tile bearings. If time, and duty, and the urgent appeals people, and I am just as sangulinie that if it goes into of the interested could have forced upon gentlemen the Constitution, it will array force against it. 1 proe the investigation of a subject, it would seem that this pose, therefore, as the easiest and safest mode of set ovtght to have bee/n examined. There has been no thog the question, to submit it to a separate vo of possibility of surprise, or of mistake, or roisappre- the people of the State; and then if the people vote bension. The subject came up in its order, without it in, well otherwise let it remain out. haste, without any of the circumstances which gen- While up, I will call the attention of members to tlemen would claim as a surprise; and the gentleman this report. No license for the sale of intoxicating 712 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. n- I the result that I desire. I shall therefore vote against the reconsideration. a Mr HOLMES. It seems to me that the effect of is this measure will l)e to give to the people of oth'n- States a very strange idea of the people otthis. Here, et in Ohio, we have a population of more than two mil-a lions-equal, to say the least, in character, in virtue, to and in public and private morals, to the people of ce any of the sister States, and yet a people whose rephe resentatives, when assembled in convention, have not ni, sufficient confidence in them to leave a question like he this where it belongs-to the Legislature-but are to impelled to set it up in the organic law of the State It seemis to me that this will be the concluqion to ns which everv man in the country will arrive. Now, I e for one do not wish to place the citizens of Ohio in a position so false and so unnatural before their fellow at citizens of the Union. am A,ain. I am well aware of the evils, the crimes n and the misfortunes that follow in the train of intern ,I perance, and I will go as far as any man to sustain the Legislature in every legitimrnate endeavor to put t them down; but I am unwilling to put a power of is this kind in the organic law. But there is more in er this section than appears at the first; and to those r who claim to be the peculiar friends of temperane the inquiry is pertinent: What are you going to do, when this comes to form a part of tle Constitutioii n No licenses are to be granted-that is plain enough; e but what next'? You surely do not intend to stop here e rWhat then? What will be the next move? Canny rit gentlemen give 1us some project-,some plan of opera. .i tie ns, to open and begin, when the traffic is thrown free to all who desire to engage in it. Mr. LAWRENCE. Let it be outlawed, as gambling e Mr. HOLMES. Then why not provide for the pun.. e ishment of other crimes? Why not declare that tlhe n General Assembly shall provide by law a restraint from the evils resulting from murder, robbery and t theft? Gentlemen must show their hands upon this matter, and give us to understand how far they intend to go. Let us know where and upon whom their a , tacks are to be made, and where their vengeance is h first to fall Is it upon the manufacturer or seller of ardent spirits? Now, I know hundreds of as good, r as respectable, and as virtuous men engaged in tX t traffic as in any other trade or occupation-men who e detest a drunkard and drunkenness as much as an? o gentleman upon this floor. And I would ask gentle men if there is intrinsically any moral wrong or evil in making or in selling ardent spirits. It is not the article that is the evil-it is its abuse. e It was well remarked by the gentleman from Au f glaize, [Mr. SAWYER,] that the insertion of this article would bring down upon this instrument a very sen t ous opposition. I believe it. And I would as ge n s tlemeii if the Legislature has not now an entire con e trol over the subject? Surely no man can say that il has not. I shall vote for the reconsideration. Mr. HU.MPHREVILLE. I voted for this article honestly and in good faith-not because I was by any i means satisfied with it, but because I supposed it might t be what the people desired; and I must say, that t . feared all along, that it was not right. I wish to say h to the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LAWRaENCZ,] that so far as I know, there has been no outside press. ure on this subject upoii this convention. I have sew none, felt nonle, and heard of none.. m But let me ask: when this article shall form a part o of this constitution, what then? What has to be do'ie? w Is the traffic abolished? Are the evils put an end to? 3 No one will claim that. The Legislature can do pre e wicsely what it could before. It c a abolish the licens liquors shall ever be granted, but the General Assen bly may, by law, provide against the evils arisin therefrom. The latter clause s extremely vague an uncertain. Wh at i s th e Legislature to do? How it to provide against the evils? Is t here to be an i] qiiisitionl established to learn who gets drunk?-a sl of nquisitors to stop the works of the distiller?third t o arr est the fharner on his way to a distillery i sell a load of corn? —another to establish and enfor( a code of excise regulations? If such is to be t~ construction put upon it, we shall, by its insertio raise a feeling again st this Constithltion tha t all th tenmperance songs in the world will not be able allay. Mr. WOODBURY. I for one have no objection to submitting this question to a separate vote of th people. Mr. SAWYER. I am satisfied thattthe peoplewan no such provision as this in the Constitutioni. I an satisfied that they will vote down any Constitutio that contains it, that we can make. Neither can ca)sent to join in this general execution of all me who are en,aged int the iianuf,,ture or sale of arden spirits. There are as good and as moral men in it a in any other; and their influence, among the bette class of society, if by this means brought to bea against this Constitution, will be immense. Mr. CURRY. I desire to ask the gentleman fron AlL,Iaize, [Mr. SAWYER,] a question. He sass th tendency of this article will be to array the peopl against this Coiistitution, and that it will prove a but del that itcannot carry. What t inquire is, who will i array against this instrument?-those who desire a unlimited traffic, or those who are in favor of sup pre.ssing the traffic altogether? Mr. SAWYER. In reply, I say that it will be th, independent republican freemen of the State-the Whir freemen —the Democratic freemen-the me who do not want you or the Constitution to say whe thev shall drink or when they shall not drink. I wtill be that class. -Mr, CURRY. The gentleman, [Mr. SAwYEiR,] ha not seen fit to give me a direct reply to my question and has therefore left me to put upon his answer suce a construction as I choose. Now, sir, I have been opposed to this article fo this reason: I am opposed to the traffic in arden spirits. I desire to cut it up by the roots and drive it out of the State, and if I knew how I would try tc do it. But for the purpose I want something better more efficient and forcible, than this. - The gentleman from Auglaize has given his oppo sition to this article from the beginning, because hb believed it would injure the business of the vender o ardent spirits-atthing he did not want to do. I took a different view of the subject. I did not behlevpthat it,would answer the designs of those who were its advocates. Therefore. I opposed it. I arrived at the same result with him, but by a different road, and lunder the influence of different views and motives But the friends of the measure believe that by taking away the sanction of law from the traffic, they shal render it odious and despicable. -Here they arrive at the sameconclusion with the gentleman fromn Anlglaize. Therefore they support the mneasur e, and therefore he opposes it. But the double authority as to the ten dency of the section, becomes weighty and powerful. Sympathising in the motives of the friends of the measure, I the more readily give w-ay to the opinionsY of the gentleman from Auglaize, and fearing that in opinion I mlay have been wrong, I have com~e to the conclusion that; I should sustain t~hat which the friends of~mperance say will have a tendencyX to produce 7 1 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. Pystem, as it established it, and then what will it do? It can leave the traffic open to all, or prohi bit to all. Which will it do? There is no middle course. It must do one or the other. If I understand the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LAwRENcE,) arigl.t, the friends of temperance intend to attempt to-close the doors, and utterly abolish the traffic. If this is to be done, and the people believe it is to be done, it will defeat this constitution, by more than fifty tliousanid votes. What, then, should the friends of teniperance do? There can be no c ourse more democratic, than that suggested by the gentleman e from Auglaize, (Mr. S,vWYaR.) of submittinec the questoii separately to the people. As the section now stanls, it is treacherous. It is liable to too many constructions. It may be a trap, and I will go against anything that seeks to be supported by making a man believe he is voting for one thing, when in fact, he is voting for another. The question then being on the motion to reconsider, miaide bv Mr. WOODBURY, Mr. HARLAN demanded the previous question, which was seconded. Mr. LAWRENCE moved a call of the convention, which was ordered, and Messrs. Blair, Case of Hock ng, Case of Licking, Cutler, Florence, Gregg, Hard, Hitchcock, of Cuyahoga, Horton, Johnson, Nash, Swan, Towiashedd, Vance of Butler, Vance of Chanmpaign, and Wilson, were found absent. Oi'i motion of Mr. HORTON, all further proceedings under the call, were dispensed with. The question then being, "shall the main question be now put"," Mir. BATES demanded the yeas and nays, which Were ordered, and resulted-yeas 47, nays 43, as fol ows: YrAs-Messrs. Blair, Chaney, Clark, Cooilings, Dorby, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Gillett, Graham, Hamilton, lHoit, -itiumniphreville, Hunter, Larwill, Lidey, London, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Snith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Steb bils, Stilwell, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Warren, Woodbury and Presidenit-47. NAYs-Messrs. Anidrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Cook, Curry, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Rcss, Groesbeck, Hawkins, Henderson, Holies, Hootman, Hunt, Jones, Kennion, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Manon, McCormnick, Perkins, Quigley, Stanton, Stickney, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Way, Williams and Worthington-43. So the demand for the previous question, was sustai4ied. The question then beig on the e o t r e -consideration of tie vote. Mr. BATES de m anded the yeas and navys, which Hunt,Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leadbetter lJidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Morehead, Patterson, Quigley,s Ranney, Reemelin, Iliddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Weaers, Smith of Highland. Smith of Wyandot, Standern I8tidger, S~truble, Thompson of:Shel' y, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Woodbury and Preside nt —47. NAyMessrs. Anlrews,:arbee. Barnet of Montgomery Barnlett of Prebl~, Bat s, rnennett, Blickensderfer, B~rown of Athens, Brown o! Carroll, Chambers. Coilings. Cook, Curry, Ehwart,:Ewing, Gilleft, Gray, Greene of Defiance Hamil ton, Haw kins, Hit chc ock of Geauga, Hunter, Lash, Lawrence, Leech. Manon, Mason. Morris, McCloud. McCormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Peck, Perkins. Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren. Statnton. $tebbiis, Stilwell, Stickney, hwift, Way, Williams and Worthington-45. So the motion to re-consider was sustained. The question then being oni the passage of the art! cie, Mr. LAWRENCE. I feel, Mr. President, mortified and disappointed at the course t ha t th e Conventio n h as taken on this motion. I had all along entertained a feeling of confidence that the Convention would refuse to retrace the stenp s o no bly taken yesterday. I felt as if th e goodn ess and justice of the causm would go far thinsure its triumph. I may be mistaken, but I cannot give up the hope I h ave entertained so loing, in a brief moment. I regret that the gentlem an fro mr Medina, [Mr. HUMPHREVILLE,] has been blessed with tw o o lt uo s sue t hat flood of light upon this subj ect that has o very recen tly fallen upon his vision. Wh y sir; this is a question that has most c ertainly been heard of before in this body. It is one upon which thousands of pe titions have been presented h ere. Many of them h av been read at the desk of the Secreta ry. Some have been printe d i n one form o r other in the reports. A special committee has been raised before our eyes to which they have been referred. That committee has made a report, which after much discussion was recomitted to th e same commi tt ee. Again it was repo r ted back to the Convention without the dottin g o f an i, or the crossing of a t: and now I ask what great light hasshone so brilliantly on the gentleman, [Mr. HuMrPRF,VILLE,] on his pathway to Dainascus? Sir, I distrust these sudden conversions. They are not al ways sound —they are not invariably sincere-they are not in every case, honest. I ami certain that first impulse." are best and most likely to be honest; and I can at least congratulate myself on the gentleman's vote given in the sincerity of his first impulse upon this question; while at the same time, I cannot but wonder at his strange, sudden, and almost miraculous conversion. And now a word to the gentleman from Auglaize, [Mr. SAwYEIR]. Behold he comes in with his peace offering. He assumes the part of a conciliator-of a great compromiser. I say to the friends oftemperance beware of his olive branches I beg of them not to taste the husks that he presents. He saps that there are good men, moral and honest men, whose opinions are entitled to consideration, who are opposed to this provision. and think it will wo,'- evil. I admit thore may be. So there are good men and honest, who are opposed to any prohibition of banks in this Constitution. I would ask the gentleman fromt Auglaize, I Mr. SAWYER,] why he is not also willing to submit that question to a vote of the people? He may reply that banks are unconstitutional. I reply that many men bclieve the sale of spirituous liquors to be unconstitutional, And if he will trust this delicate question to a vote of the people, why not also trust the question of bank or no bank? A word also, to the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. HOLMF.s.] He inquires why it is that eve select out one crime to prohibit it by the constitution. UWe do not propose to do so. There are other offnces that are and ought to be prohibited. Did lie not vote in favor of a proposition to prohibit the sale of lottery tick* ets? Mr. HOLMES. I think I did. Mr. LAWRENCE. If the sale of lottery tickets is so great an evil as to demand the action of this body is not the sale of intoxicating drinks, and the creation of a multitude of drunkards still more so? I say there are some crimes of so deep a nature —that strikte so strongly at the very foundations of sooiety, 714 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuEsDAY, FEBtUARY 25. as todemand the interposition of a remedy in the or- has it been dons? Why have we provided against the ganic law of the State. But gentlemen ask: What submission of the acts of the General Assembly to a are we to gain by putting it here? I reply, we shall vute of the people for their ratification, or to any other gain this if nothing more. There has been a legal power? Is it because the Legislature had not the right sanctioni thrown around this crime. We desire not on- to prevent It, or because it had not the moral courage ly to take it away, but to demolish at once every to do so? hope of its return. Therefore we say to the Legisla- I tell gentlemen that this argument concerning the ture: let it alone; you shall not license it and thus power of the Legislature is of no force here. It has give it a respectability of which it is undeserving. been disregarded too long to command obedience now. Is it possible, Mr. President, that the cries of suffer. Why, if we were to go to work and cut out of this iig humanity are to gain no response upon this floor? Constitution everything that is within the province of Oh, sir; I wish that 1 might, for a brief space, borrow Legislative power, we should have but a small fragment the tongue of an archangel, ithat I might portray as left. There are things to be done that experience has tIhe exist, the evils, the sorrows, the wrongs, and the shown the Legislature will not undertake-there are crimes that spring f omn intemperance! Here we have acknowledged evils, to which it will apply no remredy. oely to will it-to let the honest impulses of our hearts Shall we refuse to do so because that body does, and speak out, and the thanks of ten thousand bruised secure our neglect behind theirs? I hope not. and widowed hearts would respond in hearty thanks Mr. STANTON said, that he regretted the motion and leap for joy at the news. just made to reconsider the vote taken yesterday, on And now sir, in the name and oi behalf of the the report of the Standing Committee of Temperance twenty thousand men and women of Ohio, who have The gentleman from Ashtabula, [Mr. WOODBURvY,] petitioned this body upon this subject, 1 beg,-let them who now sees fit to act against us upon this question, not be disappointed. I feel sir, the weakness incident is entirely convinced that this whole subject should to severe indisposition comiing upon me, and can only be left to future legislation. S ow, I would respectadd that if I had the strength of a Hercules, 1 would fully suggest to that gentleman, that the provisions of gladly spend it in a cause demanding so much from all section six, of the article entitled, "the preamble and the better sympathies of our nature. It is a cause bill of rights," which forever excludes Slavery from well worth our severest studies-our most constant so- the State of Ohio, might also be claimed as a fit sublicitude. It is one in the prosecution of which we ject for legislative action. With quite as maich promay, by conferrillg happiness and benefits upon others, priety, might you leave the provisions of that section secure to ourselves the highest pleasure that it is pos- to the Legislature as the entire subject of licensing sible for man here, upon earth, to enjoy; for no gratifi- the traffic in intoxicatingliquors. Butsir, the gentle cation can be of a higher power or a holier nature man, (Mr. WOODBURY,) voted to engraft the proviso than that which springs from the consciousness of hav- ions of section six, of the preamble and bill of lfag done good to our fellow men. In behalf of the rights, in the organic law of the State, because they friends of temperance, of the friends of downtrodden express a great and fundamental principle of human and suffering humanity throughout Ohio, I b3seech, rights-prinnciples fit to be enunciated ini theconstituyea, I imlplore the members of this Convention to tion. pause, to well consider, before they crush the hopes I know Mr. President, what influences have had raised in the bosoms of thousands, by undoing to day, their share in bringing about this motion to reconsidwhat we done yesterday. er. I know that the atmosphere surrounding this Mr. MANON. I think, Mr. President, that we are convention. is antagonistic to efforts inbehalfofTempursuing, in this matter, about the usual course-at perance. There is invested in this city of Cincinnati, least the course that the papers of the State say is the in the manufacture and traffic in liquors, something usual and every day order of business here. They like a million of dollars, and how do wefind therepsay that there s 110no telling when this Convention will resentatives of that capital, and of the large class get through its business, for wlhat it does on one day,'engaged in the traffic in intoxicating liquors, vote upit regularly undoes the next. Now, Mr. President, I on this floor-they come up in a solid phalanx, and am tired of this charge, and still more tired at the vote against all attempts to respond favorably to the truth of it. I hope we shall proceed to business, and prayer ofthe twenty thousand petitioners whosepraywhen a thing is done let it be done. When a thing is ers have come lup to us, from all portions of this great voted into the Constitution, let it stay there. I am State. They place their opposition upon the ground, sure there has been discussion enough upon the most that the manufacture and sale of liquor is not, in itof these quest ions for gentlemen to vote understand- self wrong, and therefore, should not be prohibited or ingly upon them, and little good can arise from thiis restrained. constant reviewing of questions that have been once Mr. HOLMES. I did not say that the traffic in settled. intoxicating liquors, ought not to be restrained. I G,-ntlemen say that there is no necessity for thispro- desire the gentleman to unfold his progranmme, and vision, because lthe whole matter is fully within the perhaps. we might go with him. power of the Legislature. Is this not equally true in Mr. STANTON, we differ radically, and first as to regard to many other provisions that we have incorpo- the morality of the liquor traffic-I consider it imrated in this Constitution? Why do we sav that moral. corporations shall pay taxes upon their property in the Mr. HOLMES, perhaps so, as a beverage. same way that citizens are taxed? Is it because the Mr. STANTON. It is well known fact, that but Legislature has not the power to do it? Whv do we an exceedingly smallportion of allthe spirituous liqprovide that certain sums of money shall be raised to uors sold, are for any other purpose than for a beverpay off the debt of the State? Is it because the Legis- age, and all the liquor sold for any other purpose will lature has no power over the subject? Why cannot we hurt nobody. leave it to the Legislature to say why the State shall or The gentleman from Ashtabula tells us that one s'aall not make internal improvements? Is it because reason why he noves a re-consideration of the vote of the Legislature is powerless to do or refrain from do- yesterday upon this subject, is that he fears the adoping? We provide that the officers of the State shall tion of the repoit of the Standiug Committee on Tembe elected by the people-might not the Legislature, if perance, and its incorporation in the new Constitution itsem fit, make the same provision, in most cases? And would endanger tile adoption of that instrument, yet. 715 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuEsDAY, FEBRUTARY 25. he was in favor of negro suffrage, and, as I understood him, h o e would b iling to engraft such a provision in the new Constitution, although he mu st k n ow that such a provision wo uld, beyond all peradventure, de feat the instrumprt t hat we ar e about to send out. Mr. WtOODBURY. At the tione that the subj ec t of neigro suffrage v,as before the Convention, I ex pressly sta te d that I would not vote to place a provis ion for universal suffrage in the new Constitution, for the very reason t hat it might endanger the adoption of thatinstrument by the people. I was oely anxious that it shoul d be submitted t o t he people as a separate and dislinct pro p o s ition. Mr. RANNEY inquired of the gentleman from Lo gan whether he desired to throw the liquor traffic open to be engaged in by any and all indiscrinminately? Mr. STANTON. I would, withdraw from that baneful traffic the high sanction of legislation-I would stanmp the manufacture and sale ofspirituous li qtuors as a crime —as in the category of base and im moral practices. 1 would place that traffic in the cat egory of things that the State may not legalize; I would say that it is as proper to license gambling es tablislernpijt- and houses of prostitution; as shops for the sale of alcoholic poisons. I can assure gentlernen that thev never labored unt der a greater mistake than when they supposed that the insertion of a clause in this Constitution provid ing that the sale of intoxicating liquors shall not be lIcensed, will endanger the chances for the adoption of that Constilutio i. The existence of such a provision will rally to the enthusiastic support of that instrument the great Temperance army of Ohio, of which the twenty thousand petitioners to this Convention are but the advance guard. I trust that. tile motion may not prevail. M. TAYLOR. Mr. President; I voted for the sectfoin now under consideration when it was first before the convention on a former occasion, and against it on the question of its engrossment. I shall now support the motion to re-consider the vote bv which that section was ordered to be engrossed. I desire the indulgence of the convention, while, in a few words, I state the reasons for my at:tion in this regard. When this subject was first presented here, for half a day, there was but one tone and current to the de - bate. The friends of Temperance declared that all that they desired was that the license system should be abolish)ed, and that all legislative and municipal sane. tion should be withdrawn from the traffic il intoxicating liquors. The friends or Temperance-in and out of this Hall-a-annouticed that the whole contest would hereafter be conducted on moral grounds alone. I understood that the proposition before the convention (embraced in tl-he report of the select committee) implied this adjustment of the whole question; and that und.lerstanding I am confident was quite prevalent,. But, sir, when I called attention to the fact that I was advocating the proposition on thpse grounds, I said that other gentlemmeu had intimated that they intended to go before the legislature ant agitate for the prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquors, and I promptly and clearly gave notice that if such was the understanding, I was opposed to the section and should vote against it. lcams into this body with a desire which, though strong, was not destined to be realized, that the General Assembly should be limited in its powers to those acts of ageneral nature which could not well he performed by local legislatures or conlntyboards. I wished to see the same thing with reference to the legislature of Ohio that exists as to the Congress of the United States —all powers not expressly delegated by the State to the general government wore reserved to the peon ple of the States. So would I have it with the legisla ture of Ohio. I would have the people in conver tion assembled confer upon the legislative department oftheState government, csctain powers of a gnueral nature while all other powers should be reserved to the people in their municipal or county organizations I wished a plain and distinct enumeration of all subjects of general legislation and the denial, to that gen eral or central legislature, of all other powers. I wished. then that some measure might be adopted by which the people could have a Representative body, sitting in their respective counties, to discharge the manifold duties ofa legislative character which would devolve up on Ruch a body. But, sir, in all those wishes and expectations I wa disappointed. I favor the pending proposition to re. consider the vote by which the report of the standing committee on temperance was agreed to, because I find that the subject is still to be agitated in the General Assembly with an ulterior view to the pa-sage of a law prohibiting the sale of all'ntoxicatiing liquors. I should be in favor of having the General Assembly pass laws aga,inst the evils resulting from the sale of spirituous liquors-not to prohibit, not to suppress thi traffic-but to pass laws similar to those of Wisconsin upon this subject-remedial laws. Wisconsin leaves the sale of spirituous liquors open to all, but interpose remedial laws by which it is to be ascertained what proportion of the public expenditure results from their sa,le and use. That proportion, when ascertained, is imposed upon the venders of intoxicating drinks in ti nature ofa pe,nalty. More than that aniil better thani that, the Wisconsin laws give an action against tihe vender of spirituous liquors for any damages resulting from that sale to the family of the inebriate. I would gladly vote for such laws in Ohio-I would, as a menmber of this convention, give the Geni,ral Assembly power to pass laws similar to tltso now in force in Wisconsin, but I would dells to that bo(dy the power to prohibit the manufacture or sale of ardenit spirits and I would seek to prevent agitation in the General Asse-mbly for that purpose. Now, sir, if the. frien(ls of teniperance would meet mA on the ground I have briflyv marked out, I would vote that the General Assembly should never liceise the liquor traffic. Mr. President, I am a friend of Temperance, but I am not friendly to any efforts to connect that moral reform with Sltate politicess 1 may be asked, "how ars the evils of Intemiperance to be met if not by legislative interference?" I replyv, by the people of the respective counties and tct*i-/;bips in their municip,al capacity. I want no general law of a "sumptuary" character. I do not want the Legislature thus to interfere with the people in Erie county-the people of Erie do not desire to interfere, in this regard, with other portions of the State. If the people of Eri county choose, within themselves, to establish a pclice regulation prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors it is proper-let them do it. Mr. ARCHBOLD. The friends of this article hawv had the argument almost entirely to themselves. But little has been said against its expediency-they proclaim themselves the friends of virtue, of advanement, of philanthropy, of human happiness. The names act upon our pulse like magic-they am names to which I also claim to have some regard. If gent~lemen claim to havre ardent, desires fo~r a higher, holier and happier state of t hings, I claim to participate with them in the feeling. Such have been my themes during my whole legislative career If any man chooses to turn over the archil es of the Senate and ilouse of Representatives of tOis State, he can inform himself whether I have been indifferento 716 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. human advancement and human progress, whether I have petitioned, for it is admitted cn all hands, that the have not labored to raise the standard of morality; whole subject is completely within the power of the yes, and these things have been done in the midst of General Assembly, and, in point of fact, the strongest obloquy and r(b,t atch, censure, contumely and-abuse, argument which gentlemen advance is that the General and mlsrepr.sv' tion. These doctrines have been Assembly will not (act, as it has at all times past refused proclaimed in til, r,i(lst of storm and tempest-I have to act. Their argument with me is potent against defended then-, hlen lit required moral courage to de- their own conclusions; why will not the Assembly fend them. act? Why will not the slave in Kentucky cut dowa Our opponents in this argument proclaim them- an oak tree? Because his master stands with hi3 lash selves Temperance men, now listen to another Temn- and forbids him. Why will not a clerk in one of erance man, who takes the other side of the ques.tion. your stores sell a pattern of broad cloth to a doubtful eclaim to have as high and pure a regard for Temn- customer? Because his employer says to hii, sir, i f perance as any man thiat has spoken, and I tell gen- you sell goods to that matn I will instantly dismiss you tiemen, that it is indiscreet to put this thing into the from my service. Constitution. It is beyond our powers, it is in vain The General Assembly is a most obsequious body of to attempt imnpossibilities. If we put it in, the peo- men-I have never seen them lagging behind public pie will put it out, for they will reject our Constitu- opinion;they mistake that opinion at tines but they tion. I regret this result as much as any man here, are always in advance of it. The intention is to rebut it is inevitable. Gentlemen talk of the spirit with main with the stream, but they sometimes get a little which they will act and argue in order to get the peo-!faster then the tide. Are gentlemen acquainted with ple to accept the Constitution containing their cold the General Assenibly? If not I can testify to them water clause. I have a high opinion of Anglo Saxon! that that is not th- body to set public opinionI at defispirit, but still it would be madness, with Iwo or ance; the error, if any, is the otl)er way. It il a body three Anglo Saxon regiments to attack a division of which has scarcely thought, will, or intention of its the GrandeArmee with Soult, or Napoleon at its head. own. At long intervals, perhaps, a mall appears there The result is inevitable defeat. What is the design, with in ivi(lual opinions, cotnvictions, and sense of duwhat the intention of this article? The General As- ty, and with a itill to act upon those individual opinsembly shall neitherlicense nor regulate the traffic in ions. The newspapers iltstantly call them eccenardent spirits, but may prevent the evils arising there- tric-mad-wicked —profligate and abatidoned; and from. the loss of the power of regulation is a most it is not ill ordinary humani nature, to withstand such material diminution of their authority-the evils of opposition. intemnperalce, will at first become enormous,-colos- I tell gentlemen,that if there was even a cousiderasal, gigantic. Rum, brandy, spirits will flow from ble party in the. state in favor of legal measures to ten thousand fountains —will be retailed fronm count- a'olish the traffic in ardent spirits, the thing would be less hovels all over the land until the evils of intern- done; the Assembly is often in advatnce of public perance will become so urgent, as to demand of the oiiion, never laggiig behind it. nIeral Assembly the only remedy in its power, and The question then beinig on the passage of the Rethat is the total abolition of the busintess of naking port or vending spirits; the cold water reformation, ili Mr. SAWYER moved, that "the Report be comother words, is to be forced upon Us by an act of mritied to the standirlng committee on Jurisprudence the Legislature. The policy is like that of a physi- with inistructions to provide for subnmitting tile quescian, who would reduce his patient to the gates of tionI as a separate proposition to thile people for their death to convince him of the niecessity of some po adoption or rejection." tent remedy —he makes him, in doctors' phrase, nori- Mr. HAWKINS said he had hoped this question buiid, and thet he exhibits the last efforts of his skill. of Temnperaitce was definitely and finally settled on The question may be whether the cure may not turn yesterday. But soon after tile vote was take' he ohout to be worse than the disease. served indications of an attempt at a reconsideration. But have our people no sagacity, can they not con- ThIe influence of a great city like Cincinnati, upon nect two ideas, will they not see, that this measure in the deliberations of a Cotive]ition upont the particular reality amounts to a constitutional prohibition of the subject of Temiperaitce was iot, ill his pinion, of the sale or use of ardelt spirits? Gentlemen must look most salutary character. Citicinutati was bribed by forward, and expect the same opposition to the Con- the annual paynent of twenty thlouatid dollars into stitution, as if it contained t,il most rigorous, the her treasury for licenses to sell intoxicating liquors, most inexorable prohibition of the distilling or sale and she would not give up so tmuch revenue withof ardent spirits, and of the branches of business con- out a struggle. nected therewith. The (distillers the tavern keepers,, Hie (Mr. HAWrL.-Is,) (lid not believe iliat the interthe merchants, the carriers will all take the alarm- ests of this ci olut to have so much eight i t he we shall have their whole combined influence against cou sels of a tate Convention, conv ened to deliberour instrument, with that of all their fiiends, c on- t Ot nectionst arui( acquaittances. Thety will not be d cnate for the best interests of all portions of that State. nections aitd acqunitntances. They will not be de The petitiosis that had poured in from twenty thouceived by the transitory relaxation contained in the first clause. They will know with unerring certain sand citizens of Ohio, should be regarded. He was c sure that if a moiety of that number had petitioned t, what is to conic, and they will act accordingly. Pe r " for "unconditional aiid nnmitigated repeal," or for Now I do not believe, that we could safely { ncoun-fr"nodtolladunatgtdrpa,>o o Now I do notbleiseve, and that we could safelyinconn the enti re abolition of a paper currency, a vast deal ter their combined jitfiltence atid that of all the other mr frsetwudhv enpi otepae nle wh wil vt aaint u fo haingst~pedoutmore of respect would have been plaidf to the prayer mten who will vot:- against us for havitig stepped out o h eiinr.Btbcue osoh hs ei of or povice ad mddld wih tiog loo leol) of the petit~'oncrs. But because} forsooth, these pferi oftour. provitteeyand mddled wi th thiugs tiot belotigti ons are for a prohibition against the licensing of itig to us. They will all see, in this constitutietial pro- h rfi nsiiuu iut,w r odta h Visig tie ebryoof arigroussumpuar Jawthethe traffic ill spirituous liquors, we are told that the kiiondteembryo of a law ruigorous xcitesumptua lawlent movements are fanatical, and this respectable body of Itind of a law t hat uti formly excites the ost violemen that they ca opposition. Probably net tmore than four thousand n('t thu siec the clmrYftepepeb eon ... >,.... ~~not thus silence the clamuors of th~e people b, alenoun voters slave petitionted for these things, the remainder'' votere hoave petition nd forcthesethidren. Theyrea om ecing them as fanatics; on the contrary, gentlemen are are probably women and children. The omission tkn h eycus omk hsTmeac ought to occa..oti no oppositio takmng the vers cou rs e to make tpois Temperancl cught to occasionl no opposition among the voters who qeto oiia usin 717 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. Thle gentlemlan from Trumblull, (Mr. RANNEY,) M:tya that the people are not going to have this nj(,a,,ire crammed down their throats-that "this mea.sure isi unasked for by the people, who well know that no moral reform can be effected through the iistruinen tality of legislation," &c. All that I hlve to say in reply to this is, that I have confidence enough in the people to believe that they knew what they were pe titioning for. But again we are told that if this section, which provides against the licensiiig (,f the liquor traffic, becomes a part of the new Coiistitution, the next move of the friends of Teiii)eraiice, will be to besiege the legislature for laws pr,,hibiting the manufacture and sale of intoxicatiu,g liquors altogether. Suffi cient to the day is tit, evil thereof. It will be quite time to devise reeis,,,(ies when the evils prognostica ted shall assume a more tangible shape. We have tried the license system for years, and it has worked out nothing but misery allnd pauperism-its track is marked by the blood of an armuy of victims. It is for us to provide a remedy for this license system, which has swept the State like the Simoom of the desert, and which, if left unchecked, will sap the very foundations of the political as well as social structure. I shall oppose the motion to recommit this section. I hope the Convention will refuse to recommit, and again affirm the propiosition, giving to the legislature this additional commanditient; "THou SHALT NOT LICENSE THE TRAFFIC IN INTOXICATING LIQUORS!" Mr. LEADBETTER briefly stated his position, asin favor of the motion to recommit. He was (lecidedlv opposed to all attempts to legislate people into al)abits of morality, virtue and Temperance. Public epinlion did not demand the prohibition of l;censing the sale of spirituous liquors-if it had been so, the legislature would long ago have declared that prohibition, for that body is ever ready to respond to a well defined and clearly expressed public sentiment. The only legitimate ground for the true friends of Temperance was "mordl suasion." The history of the Temperance movement demonstrated that so long as they had confined themselves to that ground, they had succeeded gloriously-when they abandoned it and dragged their noble cause into the arena of politics, they failed miserably. He hoped the imotion to recommit would prevail. The question, then being onl recommitting the Report. Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, moved the previous question. The question then being "shall the main question be now put," Mr. LEECH demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted —yeas 36, nays 50, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble. Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Attliens, Brown of Carrull, Chambers, Collings, Cook. Dorsey, ELwait, Ewing, Farr, Gillet.t, Gray, Greene of Defiance Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hunter, Manon, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Orton, Otis, Scott of Harrison, Smith of W arren. Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Steb. bins, Stilwell. Swift and Way-26. NAYsMessrs. Archbold, Blair. Cahitl, Chaney, Clark, Curry, Foibes, Greeii of Ross, Greag Groesbeck, Harlan e Hawkins. Henderson, Holmes, Hoit, Hootnan, Humphre','ille, Hunt, Jones, Kenuon, King, Kirkwoo(d Larsh, Larwill, 1 eech Leadtletter, Lidey, I,ounol, Morits, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, quigley, Raiiiiey, Reemelin, Ikiddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize. Sellers, Smith of Highlanl, Stdn - bery,,Stickney, Stidger, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, - tarrent Woodbury an. l/'orthingtonM-50. So the demand,r the pretious qaestioan was not sustained. The question then being on Mr. SAWYER'S mlotionl to commit with instructions. THE LICENSE LAW. On motion of Mr. LAWRENCE, the Conventintook tip the report of the select committee on the subject of retailing a r dent spirits. The question then being on Mr. SAWYER'S mo-b tion to commit there ortwith instructions. Mr. HAWKINS demanded a division. The question then being on committing the report to the standing committee on Jurisprudenie. Mr. McCORMICK. I hope the motion will not prevail. I see no necessity or propriety in referrinig, the subject again, either to a standing or a select com-r mittee. I can assure the Convention that it will be, of small avail to place it again in the hands of the 7,18 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. c ess before the people? Array a hostile feeling against the Constitution! Why, sir, there is not a single proposition which we are likely to insert into the new fConstitution against which the same objection might not be as strongly urged as against this. But it is a minor question, says the gentleman from Trumbull. A minor question, is it? It is a question which has beeil discussed with all the force, and feeling, and passion, of all the ministers of religion in the State-a question which has more or less interested every philanthropist and every good man-a question which has excited all the holier. feelings which belong to man. and brought them all to bear with the force of a swelling torrent against one of the most insidious and dangerous elements of human destruction. A minor question. It is a question of opposition to that which produces more crime, and misery, and human suffering, and anguish, and tears, than all other evil things combined. A minor question! Why sir, I know of no more momentous question which can be brought before this, or any other assembled body of the state. Why sir, what should be the action of the people?-what should be the action of the tegislature? what should be the action of this Convention, upon the subject of the trade and traffic in intoxicating drinks?-are questions which, in my opinion, over shadow and overtop all other questions. It is a pro blem which pressesq itself upon every mind and is most difficult of solution. We have had thousands and tens of thousands of petitioners appealing to us upon this subject, asking that the legislature may be disrobed of the power of licensing the sale of ardent spirits, and the propositiob now submitted by th special committs~ is just that and no more. There is no difficulty in un derstainding this proposition. It is not worthwhile for the gentleman from Trumbull to say that it is vague or uncertain in its meaning; for there is neither vaguf ness nor uncertainty in it. The report proposes s m ply to repeal all laws by which the traffic in ardent spirits has been licensed. But beyond this it leaves the matter to the people and the l egislature; in clud ing the power to tax the traffic, and the powe r even to go so far as to prohibit the traffic entirely, if thee ta i legisla. turn., in their wisdom should deem it expedient so to do. We do not claim-we have never claime'l, that the legislation of the countrv should be used for the puir pose of forcing morality and religion upon the people. This is not what is asked for by the friends of temper ance here. This is not what is contemplated in this report at all; although the signers of that report have no association with any temperance organization. But the. report does ask, and wisdom asks, that the legisa ture of the state shall lot sanction and license immo rmity. There is a wide distinction in that kind of legisla tion which would force religion or morality upon the people, and that kind of legislation which, while it sus tains virtue —which-while it lures the heart to better tlings, employs all its force and power to rebuke im morality and punish all crime. Sir, on yesterday when I reported back this article from the hands of the com nittee, it was my in-tent.oll to have voted against it, for I had some doubts as to its propriety; but consid ering the manner it which it has been argued this morning, the character of the opposition, and the source fron' which itcomes, I am not satisfied but that there must be something better in the report than either the committee or myself at first supposed, and inasmnuch as there can arise no evil out of it —as it takes from the counties but a small amount of revenue and still leaves the whole subject in the hands of the legislature, I shall now vote to give it a place in the constitution. special committee. Their opinions are finally decided, and even should instructions accompany the recommitted report, I do not believe they will be care fully attended to. It has been well remarked that this is a purely legislative question; but it is too late to urge that objection against this or any oth er imp ortant rep ort. It has been th e d et erminati on of the Convention, f rom an early hour of its session, to incorporate great or sing ular legislative subjects-purely such- in the fundamental law. Practising up on this determ in ation, w e h ave decl ared t hat anv one engaged in a duel shall be forever incapable d li or of h olding any office of profit or trust. Aye, sir, we have declaredl that t he only criminal we look upon as an honorable man-one whom we would receive into the closest and most endearing relations of friendship-one whom we would receive at our firesides-permit to become the husband of our daughters - the father of their children, shall be the only criminal known to the laws, who shall never be capable of recei-vig forgiveness —never be capable of holding honorable trust-never be recog,nized as an honorable mail. The thief, the burglar, the murderer may hope for merey, may become an officer of your government, but the mark of condemnation is placed upon this crime and criminal forever. The definition and punishment of crime is surely a mere legislative question. Of the same nature, also, has'been the action of this body in relation to lotteries and lottery tickets, without embracing any, other species of gambling. Now, the Convention is, perhaps, justified in its action on these two subjects, because they are crimes of a peculiar character, and difficult to be provided against; yet, I certainly think neither of them of more importance as legislative, as purely moral questions, than that now under consideration. We have also had another question under consideration for many days, which was purely legislative in its character-day after day and week after week, has this body been delving into the details of legislation, for the purpose of placing in the Constitution mat ter which was reported here from the committee on 'the public debt and public works of the State, includinig not one particle of principle, but simply the details of a law which should belong wholly to pure legislation. And I might refer to other cases of legislation by this body between which, and the question now before us, there is no difference as to principle. Therefore, if we are now trenching upon the functions of General Assembly, we are doiiig no more than we have done heretofore in various other instances; and when gentlemen offer this consideration as an argu'nent against our action upon this report, it falls with but an ill grace from their lips. But it is said that bv putting this article into the Constitution, we shall array a strong party prejudice against its adoption. I was pleased to hear this argumnent coming from the gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANNE:Y.] It sounded well in the mouth of that gentleman, since it is well known that that gentleman has occupied twice as much time as any other gentleman upon this floor in attempting to get matter into the Constitution which woufd certainly array the whole Whig party of the State, to a man, against its adoption; and perhaps many others, who can claim as strong and as legitimate affinity with Democratic principles as the gentleman from Trumbull himself. Is it not a little strange, then, that such a man should now declare himself opposed to including this report in the Constitution, for fear that it will excite a popular feeling which would endanger its ultimate suec 719 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FE.BRUARY 25. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. I do not know, expressed. I thought it was not couched in the pre what the select committee upon this subj,ct have done, cise language which ought to have been given to it. that they are to be thus indirectly censured, by taking And it was for this reason that I voted this morning this report out of their hands; nor do I know what for the reconsideration. the committee on jurisprudence have done, that they I stand in this position. Although I am not over should be entitled to the peculiar privilege of having much pleased with the idea of forcing this matter in this matter referred to therm. this Convention, yet whenever the question shall come A VOICE. "To get it into the hands of its ene- up. I shall vote for it. ries." I have said here before, that I have always been op Mr. HAWKINS, (in his seat.) Because that corn- posed to legislative interference in this matter. I am mittee reporte-d against it last summer. not one of those who are in favor of legislating immo Mr. HITCHCOCK. Ah; I had forgotten that. ralitv out of the community; but yet, when this ques. Mr. SAWYER, [interposing.] It has been but a tion comes up in'broad shape, shall the Legislature in few days since the report of the Committee on the terpos6 in this traffic and license it, and legitimize it or Legislative Department was taken out of their hands not; I cannot hesitate In deciding which way I ought and referred to a select commrittee-consistinig of the to vote. gentlemao: from Medina, [Mr. [JUMPHIREVILLIE,] I be- Bult I could havewished that this report could have lieve, and as that was not taken as any slight on the been confined to this plain and bare statement of the part of the standing committee, I hope no objections case. If such had been the shape of it I could have will be taken to the proposed reference of the report voted for it more willingly than I did; and then I should under consideration. never have voted for a motion to reconsider. Mr. HITCHCOCK. I recollect that when the Leg- But the committee did more. Not content with the Islative report was under consideration, it was recomn- simple declaration thatthe legislature shall not legiti mitted for the purpose of strikii,g out the word "first," mlze this traffic they went on to say that the legisla and that it was thougilt that one individual member ture might provide for the suppression of this traffic. could do that as well as to call the committee together Now although the legislature certainly has all this for the purpose. It seetis to me, sir, that, to make power without the grant of this committee, still this this reference, would not be treating the select com- clause this report obnoxious to the objection that it is a mittee civilly. Ii the committee on Jurisprudence call upon the legislature for the purpose of enforcing have once reported adversely. - the observance of good morals in the community. On Mr. ARCHBOLD. [in his seat.] It never was- be- this account 1 have not been surprised to see gentle. fore the Comimittee on Jurisprudence. mnen opposing the report. Now, when the simple Mr. HITCHCOCK. I suppose the object of the question comes up whether the legislature shall or shall gentleman from Monroe is to get rid of the report.- not legalize the traffic in spirituous liquors, I amn But, if it is to be recommitted at all, 1 hope it will go prepared to vote that they shall not do it, upon the again to the select Comnmittee, for I can have no doubt broad principle that it is wrong to attempt to raise but that they will olbey any instroctions which may revenue from the vices and crimes of the people. I am be directed to them by the Convention. willing to go only so far upon this question as I have Mr. HOLT. I rise merely to correct the gentleman stated, and I would be glad not to be asked to go any from Monroe, [Mr ARCHBOLD.] This subject was cer- further. tainly before the Committee on Jurisprudence; and For this reason I shall vote for the recommitment the amount of their report was, that it was not a pro- of the report, but not for the instructions of the gentleper subject for the consideration of this body. man from Auglaize, [Mr. SAWYER,] in the hope that it Mr. ORTON demanded the previous question. will be returned, if returned at all, without the objee The question then being "shall the ulain question tion which I hae now poinlted out. be now put." Mr. LARWILL I am confident that if this report Mr. RIDDDE demanded the yeas and nays which were to pass, it will arrav a very powerful influence were ordered and resulted, yeas 43, nays 45, as fol- against the Constitution. I take a different view of lows: this subject from that which is commonly expressed. YEAS-Messrs. Andiews, B13arbee, Barnet of Montgomery, The petitions whi(,h have been sent up hiere have been Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, BlickenLderfer. Brown of Athens, Brown of Carr(ll, Cahill, Chamnbers, Chaney, got up by those who claim to be friends of temper Collin-s, Cook, Ewart, Gillett. Gray, Greene of Defiance alice, and many of these temperance men hlave uade Hamilton, Hawkins, Hitchcockl of Geauga, Hunter, Kennon, themselves exceedingly obnoxious to a large portion of Larsh, lawrence, Mahon, Mason, Morehead, McCormick, the German people of my region of the country. The Orton, Otis, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, causie Smith of W'yanltot, Stanibery, Stanton. Stebbins, Stilwell, cause which I thiik, myself, is a good one, has been so Stilckney, Swift, Way aced Worthington-43. managed there as to bring it into disrepute; and there NA.s-Messrs. Arcibold, Blair, Clark, Curry, Dorsey, Farr, fore I have said that the incorporation of such a clause Forbes, Graham, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hender- would arouse a feeling of opposition against the Conson, Holmes, Holt, Ilootman, Humnphrevillh,, Hunit. Jones, stitution which ought not to be permitted to bear King, Kirk wooil, Larwill, l,eecb, Leadbetter, Lid y. Loudon. Mitchell, Morris, AIcCloud, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, against it. Ranney, Reemalin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, I have been surprised to see the advocates of ternmSellers, Smith of Highlandi, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of persuce upon this floor appear to be unwilling to suShelbly, Thonipsoln of Staik, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury and Presi dcn t —48. remit this roposition as a separate clause. But I appre So the demanaltd for the, previous question was iiot hend that the reason of this is that they are afraid the sustaio ail. question would fail before the people: and gentlemen, qusthen being on committing the Report perhaps, are here advocating what they would not dare Thb question to advocate as a separate clause before tile people. to the Committee ContJrispryudo my en ectation. 1 f Besides this, I have no doubt that many of the pe Mr. DOIRSEY. Conitrary to my expectations, I findtiinreevderhaebe 01utoodral myself about to snake soene remnarks upon thils subject. titio)ns received here have been Slot up to order, al mysef aoutto akecon reark upn tis ubjct.though justice compels me to say that the petitions I voted, in tile first place, for the passage of this pro- which I have presented, upon this subject, have been vision because.t cointaitned a principle which I wished to support. But, I confess, that, whilst I voted for it signed by respectable temperance men and menmbers of ou it, very respectable tempt,ranlce societies. I had some misgivings about the terms ina'a hich it was B~ut sir, I cannot but think that the success of this 720 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuEsDAY, FEBRUARY 25. report would hlave a tendency to demoralize the peo- And to do this, they would not hesitate to adopt a pie, and that we should suffer by it, even more thant measure whose results would make children yet unwesuffered by thie hard cider campaign of 1840; from born to blush for their native State; which should the baneful effects of which we have not even yet en- make us blush when we think that we are the ounly tirely recovered. people il this Untion to put such a clause andi such a For these reasons, if I can be in order. Mr. Presi- subject into a State Constitution-whiichi would bring dent, I will move that thie furtlier consideration of this about such a state of things as would justify the erecsubject be postponed until the first Monday of May tion of a coffee house on every corner and in all the next, and demand the yeas and nays upon that ques- streets and lanes of our cities, and all along our publion. lie highways. Sir, we ought to blush to think that The motion having been entertained by the chair- we are the first people who have seriously proposed to Mr. REEMELIN said: I wish to reply briefly to put such a word as "coffee house," or the word liquor .the I Lnsinuations wich have been thrown out here, to into a Constitution. the insieffecnuations which he members from Hamilton ount he are, to And these temperance men are not shy about tellthe effect, that the members from Hamilton county fire ing us their obejet; for theyV know that, "if we repeal opposed to this report becauce it would deprive the city th e license law, liquor selling will become common,al of Cincinnati of one of their sources of revenue. I and that the land will be filled withl crime as a conse~hall at least speak for myself.anthttelnHillbfildwtyciesa os shall at least speak for myself. 1 ( Rasquence; and then, having a provision in the Coiistitu The gentleman from'T'rombull, (Mr. PraRITNs,) was A.ion, which permits then t evil exceedingly courteous upon this subject, but I desire to resution, which p therefromits their own provlegisionlate agavinst the eproils show him that the position he assumed was also ex- duced the evils, whiching they dire for efferomct, their own provisin having pro-ll ceedingly fallacious. -I will ask that geuitleman whleth-i duced tile evils, which they desire for effect, they will tcee dingly fallacious. I will ask that gentleman wmet- be ready by Penitentiary clauses to suppress not only era special t ax, not calle d li cense, butby another name, the traffic, but the manufacture, and in the end to might not be levied upon the traffic in liquors? To levy regulate bv law, the appetites of the people. They "uch a tax upon this traffic }night bet done under tile regulate bar law, the appetites of the people. Thley such a tax upon this trafi might be done under te want a cause for a general law to suppress the traffic present charter of the city of Cincinnati, in spite of entirely throughout the State; for they could set up a this clause of the Constitution if it is desired to exer- irresistible claim for such a law, on account of the ertse this power for the sak~e of raising revenue? toth e this power fr the sae of raising revee? necessity to suppress crime. Such would be the re l have always been opposed to all special taxation, sult of a rash constitutional innovation of this charecept for suce purposes as the improvements of streets acter. It is at best an untried step, and no man can ard the like. I would have the revenue of our city tell where it would lead us, except that if the traffic to be collected wholly from the real estate of our citi- be thrown open to all, it will lead to scenes, such as Zeus, and from a just valuation of their personal pro. would cause ourcheek stotinglewith shaneforhaving perty recorded upon the tax duplicate. I would re- passed such a Janutis-faced provision. lieve our coffee houses, our draymen, and all trades Wherever any experiment of this character has and professions from the support of any share of this been tried, it has signially failed. There are, perhaps, burthten. I am opposed to all special taxes because lit many here, who can remember that this experiment i taxiug special industry, special labor, which is al- was once tried in the neighboring city of Louisville. ways wrong. Draw up a proposition, which squareily The license laws were at one time suppressed in that and fairly denies all powers for special taxes upon all city. The doors were thrown open, and the traff cor or anciy. T heg a pursuwrethrwsoe, and I ivthe trafit. or or any legal pursuits, and I will vote for it. made free, and no tax was allowed to be levied upon it. But the cominiuttee which drafted this report have But sir, read the history of that city, which may be prepared it mnantifestly with the design to catch votes. found in the public newspapers, or go down them The gentle,ran from Logan and the gentleman from now and ask their citizens in the street, ask the tenTrumbull know that the Temperatice men in this perance men themselves, to recur with you to that body are as such in a miserable minority, and that page of their history embraceiug the period of the they could not obtain, direc tly and fairly, more thia prohibitionit of their license laws, aind see if they will forty votes upon this floor. Many votes were, how- not all hang their heads in shame, and they will all ever, obtained for this report with the direct under- acknowledge that they committed an egregious blunstanding that it proposed not'!iig more thait to repeal der, from which they have retraced their steps. all laws licensing the traffic, and that hereafter it Sir, I hope this article will not pass. But I desire shtould be left free. 1 mnyselfknov of as many as five especially, in these remarks, to repel the miserable de members who voted for it witth this utder,tanding. lusion that the repeal of the license laws has been op Whilst at the same timtne, my friend from Logan and posed by myself or any body else, because they are mny friend fromn Guernsey voted lor it for the purpose regarded as a source of revenue. of preparing the way for future legislatioti oni tile As to submitting the article to the people sep subject, and for declaring the selling of liquor to be a arately, I deprecate the prostitution of the ballot-box, Qri'tre. and the inisertion of the clause under consideration. 'this one-sided partnership between two extremes is I deprecate the question of a separate submission, up being understood-I know tthe initetitions of temper- on this further account, because I regard it as the ance mnen-I know they have entrapp,.d tile friends of effort of designing teni to sink the Constitutioin be free trade-T know what is to come-I know the pro- fore the people. gramme-and I will illustrate it by an anecdote Mr. LARWILL now asked and obtained leave to which I read the other day of two brothers traveling withdraw his motion to postpone together, the one delivering tetup-rance lectures, and Mr. LAWRENCE would only rise to repel the un!he other getting drunk all the time; and when the founded and unjust iisituatilon of the gentleman from latter was asked how it was that he could he a drunk- Hamiltoit, [Mr. REgtELIN,] that any gentleman upon ard anid Ilis brother a temperance lecturer. replied: this floor was disposed to vote for this proposition for "Oh, that is very easily exiplained; we are both labor- the purpose of loading downl the Constitution and de ug in the same cause; my brother gives the lectures feating it before the people. and I give the horrifying examples." [Laughter.] Sir, I cannot for a moment believe that. I must And this is precisely what the temperance'men seek think less of human nature than I now do, to believe by the adoption of this report. They want to give that any gentlemati upon this floor would give his vote the. horrifying examples.", for such a purpose; for, if there really were such a 721 OHIO CONVENTION DI)EBATES —TUSDAY, FEBRUARY 25. far declaration. Does not the gentleman know, that a large proportion of the business of this country, de peods not at all upon any license law? Why, sir, the very fact that a business Is not dependent upon license, is a recommendation; and the very moment you plaee any business under a license law, the inference is, that it is not a harml ess business. It is the unlice nsed business that' is creditable, because allowed to be carried on unrestrain e d by la w. Andongs t these, a re all thre useful callings of life; and these were never restrained by any free government on earth, and to place them uu der license, wo uld be an act o f oppression, and i nstead o f eletvating such calliengs, th erefore, the tendency would be to depress them. I do hope this article will be wholly left out of the constitution, for there can be no call for it whatever. When, sir, will men learn that there are some evis that are entirely above the reach of mere human law.? '[his, sir, is a moral evil, and cannot, I say cannot, be efficiently corrected by any mere human law, or hu man instrumentality. No, sir, the All-wise governor of the universe, has provided the only true and efficient correction and remeey for this evil, and all of a kindred character. His statutes are the only ones which can reach with any force or effect, the lhearts and consciences of men. And, sir, in order to secure any reliable reformation in this, or oniy other immoral practice, you must reach those great fountains of vice and immorality, the de praved and vicious desires of the heart. Sir, you might as well undertake to pass laws restraining that majestic representation of Oiiirnpoten~ce and Omniscience, the sun of the boundless firmanent, as that next most strik inig representative of the same august Being, the im mortal spirit of man. No more, sir, can you, by your laws, control the emotions and affections of this im mortal spirit, and its consequent moral aberrations, than you can control this sun in its course, or the time:and manner of its shilning. He, sir, that would be innocent before God in this matter, must look away from man for aid in these mal ters, and all of a kindred nature. He, sir, that would rob his Creator of the praise just ly due to him, for the pure morality of this, and all otb er real Christian countries, is to mnv mind, the grossest of ingrates. Guilty of one of the most wicked of acts. What, then, sir, are these men at here but just this thing. They are looking to vour legislature-directing your people to look to this as the only true and reliable source of moral reform on this and other subjects. The result is now palpable to every observing eye-God is forsaking them in wrath-leaving them to the devices of their own hands and the confusion tatt ever attends the designs of man when thus forsaken by a kind and wise-directing Providence. Sir, I do most earnestly beseech this Convention not to involve itself in a participation in this wicked folly. This wild crusade started by the presumption of man against the instrumentalities appointed by infinite wisdom for the effectual cure ot all the moral evils which affect our fallen state. Sir, I have long regarded this temperance movement and some others of the wild schemes of our day as covert, but none the less direct, attacks upon the entire Christian system. That great system, sir, to which we. are directly in}debted for the highest blessings our countryv now or in times past has enjoyed. I believe, sir, that most sound, clear sighted (~hristians are beginning Xose this scheme in the same light I have done. .Look, sir, at the bedlam-like conduct now attending your temperance society exhibitions. And let ally sober christian say whether that sobriety and order attend them which must ever attend all enterprises where the spirit of christianity is concerned. tarn here, I would freely say that he is unworthy of his position.. Mr. REEMELIN, [interposiqg.J I spoke of the effect of such a provision. But the gentleman speaks for himself. Mr. LAWRENCE. I am speaking in behalf of gentlemen, whom I know to be actuated by the purest motives. Whether their action shall tend ultimniatelv for the best, or not, is another question? And I will say now to our friends, that all we have to do, is to stand firm, and present an undivided front, and resist every proposition to recommit or postpone, for the ob ject of these motions is either to place the proposition beyond our reach, or load it down with amendments which will render it obnoxious to its friends. I hope no man will be led astray by this skirmishing. It on ly shows the weakness of their cause, who stand upon this question, opposed to the interests of suffering hu Inanity. All we ask is to be iiiet fairly, and we are prepared for the battle. Mr. MITCHELL. I am apprehensive that there are gentlemnen upon this floor who are about to vote for this proposition without a proper understanding of it, for i perceive that some have one understanding of it and others have another; it is plain, therefore, that one or the other of these parties must be sadly deceived in the result. And I fear the gentlerrani from Trumbull, [ Mr. PERKINS.] will tind himself deceived as to the con struction which he has given to this section. Now, suppose we change the wording a little. Stup pose that instead of saying the Legislature shall not license the traffic, we say the Legislature shall not per nit the traffic in ardent spirits. Would we thereby really change the sense? It is true it would be much more perspicrous in the latter form. The ambiguity of this word license, arises from the fatct that this word has been so long connected with the subject of retailing ardent spirits, that it has conme to be considered as having something of the same signification of the word "grant," license, or grant leave to do a thing, rather than as implying permissioni or liberty. But I conceive that if we were to use this word in this instrument, it would have to be construed according to its ordinary meaning, that is, as a permit or a privilege. But this, I apprehend, is not the construction which a large proportion of temperance men have given to this term. If we look at their petitions, it must be perfectly clear, that their understanding of a provision of this kind, is, that there shall be an entire prolhibition of the traffic; and if I anm not mistaken, there are gentlemen who are voting for this proposition with the same understanding. But these gentlemen should remember, that our individul I designs and intentions cannot affect the proper and legitimate meaning of the words which we employ in this article. Mr. PERKINS interposing. If the gentleman's construction is right. what does the last clause mean? Mr. MITCHELL. I confess the latter clause throws doubt on the construction of the former; but still if the latter clause can be made to harmonize at all according to the rule of construction, it cannot affect the construction of the clear literal meaning of the former clause. But if the design of the friends of this report, were utterly to prevent this traffic, why did they not employ unequivocal language? A single word settles it beyond all dispute, if the design is to remove all resd trictions from the traffic,and leave it open to all, as some here contend it is. Tois word is restrain. Strike out the word issue, and insert instead, the word restrain, and the meaning will tie clear and unequivocal. On La word sir, as to the policy of inserting any such provision. The gentleman from Logan says if you remove from the traffic, the license law, that you will thereby render the business odious. But this is. rather a singus I 1. 722 OHIO C9NVENTION DEBATES —TUESD Y, FEBRUARY 25. A division of the question having been called fbor, and the committee having refused to strikeouts The amendment was lost. SEc. 2. The General Assembly shall provide by law, an uniform rule of assessment and taxation, an'd shall prescribe such regulations as will secure ajust valuation of all property,both real and personal; and monies and credits, or investments in joint stock com panies or otherwise, shall be taxed as other property is taxed; Provided, that burying grounds, publio school houses, houses used exclusively for public worship, to an amount not over $2000; institutions of purely public charity, the property of the state, of counties, townships, cities and towns, may by gener al laws, be exempted from taxation. And the General Assembly may exempt from taxation, property be longing to the head of each family not exceeding in value two hundred dollars. Mr. MANON moved to amend this section by stri ing out the proviso, after the word, "worship,' these words, "to an amount not over two thousand dollars." Mr. M. said, he proposed this amendment, because he desired to conform his views to what he supposed to be the views and wishes of others. He desired to putall churches upon an equal footing; but, if he could have his own way exactly, he would tax the whole of them. Mr. LOUDON said, t hat, whilst the co mmitee could not agree upon the deta ils of this report, they were nearly all areed u tipon the princip. T heycould all agree as to the justi ce o f the principle, of taxing churches and individuals all alike, according to tm Iv1alu i pe of their property; but they could not agr ee upm exempting pr operty in the p ossessio n of every church to the amount of $2000, and in the possession ofevery individual householder, to the amount of $200. TIh amount exempted in the possession of the poorer church was the same with that exempted in the handi of the more wealthy; and the amount exempted in the hands of the poor householder, was the same witrh that exempted in the hands of the millionaire. Mr. REEIMELIN. I sha!l vote in favor of striking out, for I am apprehensive that the construction wouldi be, that all churches worth more than $2,000 would not be exempted at all, while all churches under that law, would go free. That would work serious inijustice to those churches erecting more permanent buildings. I allude now particularly to the Romani Catholic churches. I do not know of a single church belonging to that class of Christians that is not worth morg than $2,000. For this reason it might be supposed that this clause was intended to be directed against time Catholics. Mr. ARCHBOLD. Nobody doubts but it is a Catholic persecution. Mr. REEMELIN. I do not believe that any such intention was in the mind of any member of the standinig committee, but I acknowledge, the proposition squints that way. But, for myself, I believe that all property, intended for a mau's own use-for himsalf alone-and which may be denied to all others-roper. ty that does not belong to the public-should all be taxed. With iespect to church property, which is all private property, as contra-distinguished from public property, it is well known that I am in favror of taxing them all alike. 1 have heard the argument of the gentleman from Monroe, [Mr. AgCHBeOLD,] in support of his allegation that thxis is all attack uponI the Cathoics. But it is well known that Protestant churches, in this country, are much more numerous than Catholic; and Protestanits would be very great fools to tax themselves more, for the sake of taxing the Catholics less, and, beside~ this, I know that the chairman of the commnittee ms Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and slays upon the nmotion to refer to the committee on jurispru deuce, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 46 nays 47, as follows: NAYs.-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gregg, Groesbeck, Henderson, oflomes,Holt, Hootman, Huinphreville,Hunt, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirk wood, Larwill Leadbetter, Lidey, LIoudon,M tchell, 2iorris, Norris, Patterson, Peck. Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin Riddle, R,oll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Iellers, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Shelby. Thompson of Stark, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury and President-46. Yz.ts. —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery. Barnett of treble, Bates, Bennet, Blickensderfer, Brown Of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chamrbers, Collings, Conk, Cuxry, Ewart, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga. Hunter. Larsh, Lawrence, Marion, Mason, More head, IMIcCl(.u.1, McCormick, Orton, Otis, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stanton, Ste,bins, Stilwell, Stickney, Swift,Way, Williams andWorthington-47 So the motion to recommit was rejected. The question then being on the passage of the Re port: Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 43, nays 49, Ls follows: YEAs —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Chambers, Collinogs, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Gillett, Gray, Gceet.e of Defiance, Hamilton, Haw. kins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hunter,- Larsh, Lawrence, Ma. non,Mason, Morehead, Morris,McCloud, McCormick, Norris, Otis, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Staln ton,Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Swift, Way, Williams and Worthington-43. NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Farr, Forbes, Graham, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Harlan, Henaerson, Holmes, Holt Hootnman,i Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, Kennon, King, Kirkwood, i,ar- will, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Patterson, Peck Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott ol Auglaize, Sellers, Smith ot Highland, Smith of Wyandot, .Stanbery, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Shelby, Thompsoo n of Stark, Warren, Wilson, Woodbury and President-49. So the report was rejected. On motion of Mr. MITCHELL, the convention re solved itself into a committee of the Whole,-Mr. SMITH of Highland in ille Chair-and took up th e consideration of the Report (No. 2) of the committee on Finance and Taxation, submitted by Mr. LOUDON, (m the l1th instant. The report having been read thruugly, The CHAIRMAN announced the consideration of the first section, which is as follows SzEc. 1. Tnat thelevying of taxes lay the poll is grievous anal oppressive; therefore the Lgislhtiire shall never levy a poll tax for coulity or State purposes. Mr. MANON mnioved to amend this section bv stri- king out all after the word "poll," to wit: by striking out the words, "tax for county or State purposes, and o inserting in lieu there-f, the words "or a professional tax." i He said he desired that the taxes should be paid by i the property of the State, and not on account of the E privilege of living or of making a living. He would I not tax a professional man for his profession. He would not tax a lawyer because lie had the name of a 1 lawyer, for he hoped that they all were to be made lawyers by the action of this convention. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE, (in his seat. hope so I 'too. Mr. LOUDON said, the committee on finance and taxation, had adopted this first section, as they found it in the bill of rights of the present constitution, be- t lieving it to be their duty, whenever they could con- w sistently do so, to adhere to the language of that in- a strument. This section was so old and familiar to t every man in Ohio, that he did not want to part with I it. t 47 1 1 i 1 i I t t i !I tI 0 i i 8 p e 723 724 OHIO CGONVENTION DEBATES-' UESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. king this report would be incapable of intending any conduce to an economical administration of the govspecial injury to Catbolics. But it is an unjustifiable ernment? But, by exempting this des.criptioln of propdiiscrimination, to tax a church worth more than the erty, I ask whether we are not going backward to $2,000 and exeiript those worth less. results whichl are realized in other governments? In I suppose that all property of churches in this coun- the governierlits of Europe, in the exercise of the. try is genel'ally held as private property-intended for taxing power, they have discriminated in favor of personal ildividual comfort-as opposed to property capital and against labor: but here we are discrimidesignated wholly to the public use. If any gentle nating in favor of capital, atod in favor of other prop man doubts this let him recur to the newspaper adver- erty, and against real estate. The number of voters tisenments for the sale of pews. Apprelhenrding that my whe are interested in our amount of taxation; is rapposition here might be controverted, I have collected a idly diminishing. I hope we will retrace our steps, few advertisemen's which I will read. anid by subjecting all property to taxation muake it the Mr. R. read the following advertisements: interest of all to have a cheap government. DEW IN CHRIST CHURCH.-A central pew in the For these reasons I hope the amendment will pre central aisle of Christ Church will be sold on reasona- vail, and that the section will be so shaped that there ble terms. Apply at the Gazette Office. shall be no exemptions from taxation but property 'Oct 12-tf olUtLIC SALEOFPEWS.-Tlc sale o1f Pews,In belonging to the State, county, township, town, or pURILIC SA%LE OF PEWS. —The3 sale of Pews, in the city, or to the United States. U New Stonte Church, Dr. Willis Lord's, on Seventh street, cKt. or ~ t-.-i Sas. between Western Row and John, is advertised for this eve-' Mr. GROESBECK. I shall sustain this amend aing, (the 20th,) at 7 o'clock. (;entleinen desirous of securing ment because it seems to me to be obviously right. pews, are requested to be present with their families, Pews The proviso to this section is in these words: remaining unsold, should there be any. will be rented at the "Provided, That burying grounds, public school l)Eo S IN CHRIST CHURCH.-No. 6, Middle Isle. houses, houses used exclusively for public worship, BW good location. No. 108, step east side. to an amount not over $2000; institutions of purely goodlctorN.18 ste astselo. b For sale low, by RIENRY ROCKEY, public charity, the property ot the State, of counties, dec 21-lw No. 21 East front street. townships, cities and towns nmay by general laws, to I believe the practice of selling pews prevails with exempt from taxation And the General Assembly all the churches in this country except the Methodist may exempt from taxation, pioperty belongiLug to the and there it is beginning to be-adopted. I introduce head of each fanily not exceediig, i value, t-ohunthese advertisements only for the purpose of showing dred dollars." that churches are considered as private property to "To an amount not over two thousand dollars," are al1 intents and purposes, and being used for the corn- the words proposed to be stricken ott. The provisfo)rt and enjoyuient of individuals, they should be ion is:that if the house and grounds shall be valued taxed as the property of individuals. at any sum above two thousalnd dollars, the church While I am upon this subject, I will express the shall be taxed on the excess. InII other words: it prololtpe that if the word "exemption" gets into the Con- poses to exempt from taxation the property of all stitution, a provision will be engrafted into it requir- chuiches to the amount of two lhousand( dollars. ilg that all property in the State of Ohio, not taxed That is my construction. Now the question is whether ; other property, shall be reported and published this is right. I understand that th-'s provi ion asannually under the authority of the State. Such a serts the principle, that it is riyht, to exemiipt churches iegulation as this in the State of Pennsylvania, shows to a certain extent. Aye, mnore, this provision is so that in the city of Philadelphia alone there is the carefully worded, that it will wholly exempt from tax vast amount of $7,192,180 worth of property exempt ation perhaps, nine-teiths of all the churches in the from taxation, the majority of it being divided amongst State and tax the remainder. The report asserts the tie churches of tliat city. principle, that it is right to exempt churches from tax Governments heretofore have acted upon the prin- ation, then goes on, carefully, to provide for the ex ~eple that no man should have any political rights emption of a certain amougt of church property, uless he held a pecuniary interest, to be enjoyed and which will cover a large majority of all the churches protected. That was the idea that a man must have and taxes the few churches which, by reason of their a stake in society as a property holder, or else he had locality, are worth more, than that specific amount. 1o rights. We have, I am happy to say, repudiated Now I propose to examine the fairness of this re Lhat doctrine; but I will ask if we are not rapidly port, in this particular. I will come right home here d(eparting from the true principle of free government, and consider its effect upon the churches in Cincin aud whether we are not now leaning oln the other side, nati. There are, say one hundred churches in this when we throw the burthen of taxation too heavily city, distributed in the various wards; just as the iU pon a part ef the community, or when we place the school houses are distributed-in the centres of their hand of taxation hard upon a few interests of the respective congregations. Now is this distribution State, and lightly, or not at all, upon others? All right or is it wrong? Is it right, that the churches interests share in the proceeds of taxation; and if should be located in the different wards in the city thiere is any difference, those interests which are ex- where thev will be most convenient to the congrega eiupted from taxation have the highest advantages tions worshiping inll them? Certainly, you will say, from taxation, and is it not a false policy which per- this is right. What thei? There is a church (poiiit mits so many peculiar interests which have an inter- ing through the window in the direction of the 1st terest to increase taxation, but which do not support Presbyterian church,) located iii the second ward. mi equal share of this burden. I refer now particu- The church itself occupies a lot of say, seventy feet larly to banks, to railroads, and to other property ex- front and one hundred feet deep. That is not too large (vupted. I ask whether it would not be right to corn- a lot for a church-certainly not too large a lot for a sel all the private property mn the State to feel its pro- building suitable for the congregation worshiping ~portionate share of the weight of taxation? I ask there —and the bare ground UlpOn which that house M, hether, by bringing all property in churches, banks, now stands, is worth from 15 to $20,000, and I might reads, and every species of property in which money say the same of many other church-lots in this city is invested, upon the tax list, we would not very mucht the bare ground being worth $20,000, whithout com contribute to that very desirable object, a general vig. puting the value of the building erected upon it. It ilance about expenditures, and whether it would not j is plain, then, that we must either renounce the'*ht .i OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 25. of the churches here, to locate their houses of worship conveniently-we must either say, that there shall not be any churches erected in the city, or repudiate the principle of the report. But I say these churches are rightfully located, where they are. Mr. REEMELIN, (interposing.) The Report does not say a word about the lot. Mr. GROESBECK. Well, I know enough of law to understand that this phrase, covers the value ef the lot, upon which the house stands. But as I was saying- there is that Church which has occupied that locality for half a century. When it was located in that place, this city was but a mere village. Some are still living who assisted in putting up the Church which has recently been torn down upon that lot; andi when they nut the Church there originally, the lot was worth onlly a few hundred dollars. lBut since that time, the l,t has increased in value, and because it has increased in value, shall it be that that conare gation shall rnot worship there? Again, are we prepared to condemn the arch itecture of that building? Are we prepared to say, that city churches shall not be permitted to couformW to the style of architecture around them? There is such a thing as Church architecture; and shall we banish it from our mnidst? Shall we declare that oth. er public buildings shall be erected with proper arch itecture, but the Churches shall have none of it? Will you expend millions upon your State Capitol at Colrumbus, and upon your court houses and other public buildings, and require that your Churches shall be mere barns? No sir, I affirm, that it is proper for t our Churches to be erected in conformity with ap- proved styles of architecture. There is the Catholic Cathedral, which, I believe, has already been alluded to. I always look with pride upon that noble structure, with high-ascending spire pointing to the throne of that Being who is worshiped within.e Yet the principle of this Report amounts to a declaration, that we should go to work and batter to the plain, every work of public improvement and ornamnentt of the kind. But, sir, go into any of the Churches of this citv-I have been in nearly all of them-and see if you can find inr their interior, any display of extravagance or of luxury, which any gentleman here could reasonably condemn. You will find in most of them, long, straight pews, so illy suited for comfort, that I would far rather occupy my chair at this desk. No sir; the distinction proposed in this report is all wrong. It is just as important that a house (f worship should be properly located, as that a school house should be properly located; and any principle that would disturb this arrangement is all wrong. Sir, if we are to incorporate into this Report, the principle of protection at all, we should extend it to all the Churches, without limitation or discrimina-a tion. It does seem to me, that we cannot rightfully mniake any distinction whatever. If you protect one Church, protect all-if you tax one, tax all. If yoml protect a Church in one county, protect them in all counties:-if you exempt them in the country, exempt them in the city. Let your rule be uniform. Mr. HUMPH REVIL LE. If I understand the pro posed amendment, it is to strike out all discrimination between the value of churches so as to exempt all houses of worship frown taxation. I will go for this amendment sir, and I beg leave to offer a few reasons which have brought me to this determination. I care but verylittle about this question whether church property shall be taxed or not; hut I can see no good reason for making the proposed discrimi a na tion. Here in Cincinnati, a church edifice and the ground upon which it stands, may be worth an hun-. dred thousand dollars, whilst another church il the little town where I live, may not be worth, one thousand dollars. They are both places for the worship of God; and I would make no discrimination I)etween them on account of their respective values The little house in which I worship may not be worth more than one thousand dollars; and there is another house of worship in thesame little town which cost snome six or seven thousand dollars, ye ththat hou se i s no smore than sufficient for the congregation worship ing in it. Where is the propriety, then, in taxing the latter coflg reg ationand not the former-for a house which answers their purpose no better than the s maller house an swers the p urpose of th e smal ler coug rega tiou? But I wish to look at this question from a nother point. And let me ask vou, Mr. Chairman, what would be the effect upon the tax list of the city of Cincinnati, if you were to strike all the churches within the limits of the corporation out of existence, and turn all their houses of worship into stores and grogshops? What would be the result of such a policy? Would not every Christian family be removed without the limits of the city? And would not every mTan be deterred from the idea of buying property and settling here with the expectation of bringing up a family? If this would be the result of such a policv, then it is ax advantage to the city revenue, to hove these church edifices located in every neighborhood for the convent. eiice of the people. I may be wrong. I do not know but property would be just as valuable here without the churches as with them; but it is my sincere be.lief, that, if the churches were all removed, every descriptioni of real estate would immediately degenerate more than fiftv per cent. in value. Indeed, 1 believe that our goodly state would soon become a howltug wilderness again, if it were not for the salutary influence of the churches and schools. From considerations like these, I am induced to sa,v that, if the churches in the little town of Mrdina are to be exempted from taxation, the churches of Ciecininatiought also to be exempted; and if the churches of Cincinnati are to pay a tax according to the value of their church property, the owners of all the houses of worship thronghout the state ouaht to (lo thee same. But, if the amendment recommended by the committee is to be adopted, if thereis any doubt about,uieluding the land in the value of the house, that doubt ought to be removed before the vote is taken. Mr. REEMELIN. I protest against flghtibg men of straw upon this question. Whlo has proposed to strike the churches out of existence? No stuch a thing can be inferrer from a proposition to tax them. I have ino doubt but that gentlemen are correct in saying that if the Churches were taken aw;ty the value of plroper ty would depreciate. But who hlas said anv thing against the, Churches? Who has blamed any body for building Churches? I have not heard a word of that kind. All I have heard amounts to this: that whien men expend their money for this kind of property they ought to pay a tax upon it just as they do upon any other property they hold. Our citizens build for,het selves splenidid mansions. and I want their buildings taxed, but not because I liate their style or,nag iifi. cenice. Just so loneras the burthens of ta~xat'o.,are to be laid upon property, just Fo!ong will I cent lid that all private property sh,ould b: taxed. Wheoewer I can be convinced that ChUIC8Be are public. property, [ wvill then go against taxing them Sir, this proposition to tax the C'lurches is not a h1os; tile proposition. I f it is hostility to tax them, then taxation is an attack upon every body, and being an attack upon every body, it is nlo attack at all. Mr. HUMPHREVrILLE, [in his seat.] I hope the I I I 725 726 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WWEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. g whom had been referred the petition of thirty-sevein voters of Preble county on the subject of granting s licenses to sell initoxicating drinks, submitted the fold lowing: - Resolved, That at the next general election and at ct the same time, when the votes of the electors shall be ,. taken for the adoption or rejection of the new Gonsti1, tution the additional section in the words following: - "No license to traffi in intoxicating liquors shall e hereafter be granted in this State, but the General As- sembly may by law provide against evils resulting therefrom," shall be submitted separately to the electors of this State for adoption or rejection in form follow, ing,to *it: A separate ballot mray be given by every person having the right to vote for the new Constitu tion, to be deposited in a separate box. Upon the ballots given for the adoption of the said separate amendment shall be written or printed, or partly written or partly prilted, the words "License to sell intoxicating liquors yes," and upon the ballots given against the adoption of the said separate amend ment, in like manner the words "License tosell intox icating liquors no." If at the said election a majority of all the votes . given for and against the said separate amendment shall contain the words "License to sell intoxicating liquors no," then the said separate amendment shall be a separate section of Article- - of the Con stitution in full force and effect, any thing contained in the Constitution to the contrary notwithstanding. Resolved, That the last preceding resolution be caused to be published in the manner specified in the I resolution of the Convention relating to the notice of the time and manner of voting for the new Constitu tion." On motion of Mr. HOLMES, the Report was laid on the table and ordered to be printed. Mr. RIDDLE moved that the Convention resolve itself into a committee of the whole upon the report of the standing committee on finance and taxation, which was agreed to-Mr. SMIJT of Highlanid, in the chair. The question then being on the amendment offered by Mr. MANOe, to str ike out th e fou rth and fifth linen of the second section of said report, th e followl)g words: "Not exceedilig.in value the sum of two thou sand dollars," the same was agreed to. Mr. WOODBURY moved to st ri ke out of the same section the following: "Houses used exclusively for re ligious worship." The question then being oa i the amenldment of Aft. Wt OODnURY. Mr. WOODBURY. I have moved to strike out these words. Mr. Clhairman, because I believe that justice to the people of' the State demands that they shall be stricken out. If I had not believed before that an ex clusioI1 like this was wrong and unjust, the argument of the gentleman from Franklin, (Mr. STANBERY,) yesterday, would have convinced me cf it. He stated that there were churches ill this city, standiing on ground that originally cost not more than two or three thousand dollars, that is now worth from twenty to fifty thousand. The proprietors of this vast estate have done nothing to enhance the value of their property; but it has merely risen on their hands and has increased ill value more than twenty fold. Whether it was intended originally or not, the proprietors of these churches hare mnade a large speculation, and put heavy sums of money in their pockets- They rent the pews at a price augmented by the favorable position of their church. They receive and enjoy the protection of the laws and of the authorities of the State and the police of the city.'l'hen why should they not pay taxes uplon this property that is affiording them a profit, and gentleman did not understand me to allude to anythini that has been said here to -day? Mr. REEMELIN. I know of nothing that ha been said here at any time which could be understood as anti attack upon the churches. It is only the prin ciple of exemption from taxation that we war again s All we desire in this proposition is a declarationinot that all the private property ill the State shall be taxed but that it shall be subject to taxation, that is, all pro perty which is used for private emolument or private comfort, private pleasure or subject to private owner ship. When Mr. RIEMELIN had concluded, On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the Committee rose and the Chairman reported progress; then, On motion of Mr. GRAY, The Convention adjourned. ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FOURTH DAY. WEDNESDAY, Feb. 26, 1851. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Praver by Rev. Mr. Jewell. Mr. LARSH presented a petition from John A. M. Kirt, George D. Hendricks and thirty-five other voters of Preb!e county, praying that a clause be inserted it t he new C onstitution prohibiting the Legislature from pass a aing any law legalizing traffic in spiritu ous liquors. Reterred to a select comnrmiittee of one, (Mr. LJA WRE,N-ct. ) Mr. McCO)RMICK submitted the following: Resolved, That the Judiciary Committee be instructed to report to the Convention a plan of Judicial Districts in accordance with the Report. On motion, Mr. TOWNSHEND was excused from serving on the select committee on the Schedule. The PRESIDENT announc ed Mr. HuMPHREvWiLLa to fil l the vaCancy. MEr. REE ELIN s u bmitted the following: Resoeyod, Th at the com mittee oln Revision be in- structed to insert in section two of the Report numiber two of the committe e on "Corporations, other than Corporations for Banking" after the words "on the second Tu esday of Octo ber" these words ("until otherwise o rdered by law." Onl the adoption of which Mr. STAN'ION deanuded the yeas and nays, which were o rde red, and resulted-yeas 46, nays 43, as follows: YEr.,s-Messrs Archbold, Bennett, Blatr, Brown of Atherns Brown of Carroll. Cahill, Chaney, Clarki, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Fo r bes, Gr een o f Ross, Groesbecof, Haw kins, Henderson. H itchcock of Geagea. Holmes, Holt, Hoo man, Horton, Hunt, Huiter Jones, Kennon, King, Kirk wood, Lawrelece, Larwill, LonLido, ianon, Morris, Norris. Reemelin, Riddle, Seller s. Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Taylor Way, W illiam s. Wilsonh and Worthingtono-46. NI.Ys-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of lTreble. Bates. Blickensdcrfer, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Ewiins, G ilett, Graham, G ray, Greene of Defiance Greggt, Hamilton, Hoarlan, Humpciyreville, warsh, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey. McCloud, McCormiclk, Orton, Otis, Pat. terson, Pecl, Pleriins, Quigley. Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Augtaize, Smith of Highlanid. Smith of Warren. Sim,ith of'Wyan,idot, Stanton, Stebbiins, SLilwell Thompson of Shelby, Thololpson of Starlk, Woodbury and President -43. S,3 the Resolulion was adopted. Mr. MANON submitted the following. as a separate article of the nlew Constitution, which was read the first timee: "Every person of good moral character, being a vcter, shall be entitled to admission to practice law in all courts of Justice, aily law to the contrary notwithsta,diig." Mr. LAWRENCE from the select committee, to I i t t i c 0 s i I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- WED1NESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. y ileges. All they ask is that they shall not be taxed t upon their charities-that is all. They ask that the government shall not stand in the way of that good s which they are organized to do. All they ask of the d State is, that unimpeded, unburdened, they may be t. left to perform in a quiet and unobtrusive mnanner, the a important part of an auxiliary of government in doing - good to mankind, and preserving the peace of society. e Is this an exorbitant demand? It has been said by reve e..eral gentlemen upon this floor that the property that n is invested in churches, is private property and that it h pays a profit to its proprietors freqiently as high as , ten per cent. Thiis is not the fact. The property of D churches is in general vested in trustees. The only individual property is in tile seats, and that is a mere right of occupancy.'l'here is no income accruing to r the pew owners, that they can put in their pockets. - If there is an income from anything it is for the bene. fit of the church and not to enrich the menibers that t compose it. It goes to pay the necessary expenses of a the society-to pay in part the salary of the minister, , or is expended in charity. It would seem as if we t had got along well and fast in Ohio, when in addition to the tax which every man pays upon his property, he must also pay for the privilege of supporting the t gospel and attending upon religious worship. We im pose upon ourselves first, an onerous tax for the supa port of those institutions of religion that are of more , salutary effect upon society than anythillg that it conr tains, and then the government cornes in and imposes upon us an additional and extraordinary tax in cousidp eration of the investment we have ma.de. Stich a prac tice is unequal. Such a law is unjust. Yet it has been attempted in various ways and has been cluing to with the tenacity ofl' desperate determination. If the churches do not render an ample equivalent for their exemption from taxation, sav so; meet this ques tion fairly. Say at once that their influence is not for the good of community. Let the advocates of this measure stand forth boldly as the opponents of the churches. No gentleman has placed it on this ground, however. The essay has been mnade in the insidious form of a general proposition. Everything is to be brought in under one general provision, that all troperty shall be taxed equally. Now I am in fa. evor of equal taxation myself, but this is unequal. It is imposing an additional tax upon those who are already taxed-who have already taxed themselves for the benefit of the community; and all this matter about equal taxation turns out to be a mere c4ap-trap, to deceive those who either cannot, or will not, see the in. justice of the whole proceediing, or who are willing to obtain a momentary popularity by the coimmission of an act of injustie. Again, it is said by gentlemen that there are good men, judicious men and pious tren-members of relit. gious societies, who are in favor of the taxation of churches, and that the adoptiotn of this principle would enlist such men in support of this constitution. Sir, I know some of these men who are ial favor of this proposition. I have seen them, and conversed with them. They say that the Catholic churches of Ohio and especially in this city are rich —that they have vast amounts of property, that should be taxed, and t his is the bait that is holden out to induce a general tax-ation of the property of all religlious societies. I warn these good men that they are led astray, unconsciously perhaps, by their prejudices, and that they are laying al trap for their own feet, ila which they will certainly be caught. These designing men who nova run a tilt against the Catilotic churches, with their help, will be found attackinlg thle others so soon as8 they ate success-ful with the catholics. Those who flow point their artillery against the Catholic b~ecaluse it is a rich church rec eiving the protection of the government? Whi should they not ai d i n supporting that governmena withouat which they could not exist? The Gentleman f rom Frank lin told us tha t if taxen were imposed, the churches would be destroyed, and tha t the people would be driven to the hills, to worship I do not know but such might be th e case here, and in few other places, buit it s ne t so, in the part of the coun try in which I reside. and I believe th a t in general the charge is a libel upon the people. I do not believe that the people at large ask either bonus or exemption for their churches. I have freq u ent l y conversed wit gentlemeon fr om the part of t he Stat e which I represent and they have invariably sa ththat they could see no reason why churches s hould not be taxed. Bu t, Mr. Preside nt, if the provisions of this section are to prevail I shall be ready t o go for allowing every mcean iai the State to have a certain portion of his pro perty investe d i n church es, to be exempt from taxation That would be just and right, because it would pu all upon an equal footing; but I say that it is manifestly unjust and unequal to make such provisions that ten twenty, fifty, or an hundred thousand dollars-the pro. perty of the able and the rich, are exempt from taxa tion, while every cent of the property of the poor man Is to be taxed for the support of that government that extends its protection to all. Yet if a movement is mna(le to touch the churches-if the debt they owe to the government that protects them is spoken about, gentlerneniare in arms upon the subject and the epithets of deist, atheist, unbeliever and infidel are thrown upon those who are in favor of the proposition, as if even the throne of heaven itself had been attacked and was in danger of being pulled down. Now sir, I fear no such opprobious names. It is not by suchl reans that just causes are argued or advocated. The princi ple of taxation is the same, whether applied to the splendid church in the city, with its gilded pulpit and its velvet cushion, or to the little homnestead of the poor mats by the way ide, in the country. And this is a doctrine that applies equally to all sects and all de nominations. I c;tre not where it falls-whether upon Presbyterian or Methodist, Baptist or Catholic-it is &iI the same. Equal taxation for the support of the government upon all the property of the State is the only doctrine of the people —the only one that can be sustained. Mr. EWART. I hope that this amendment will not prevail. I hope, sir, that it will not prevail, because I believe that if it does, it will be productive of great and serious injustice. 1 am opposed to the adoption of the amendment, for the same reason which the gentleman from Ashtabula, [Mr. WOODIURVl,] urges in its favor. I am opposed to it because I believe that the interests of religion are important to the government itself. You have so declared in yoour bill of rights. We establish courts of justice. We expend large sums of money in sustaining them, and in supporting a Judiciary. We provide for the punishment of crimes and appoint officers to bring offenders to justice. We create and keep in order a police to prevent as far as possible an infraction of the laws, and to arrest offenders against the statutes of the State. And yet not onie of all these institutions is half s0 use ful, half so efficient iu keeping the peace, in promo~tin}g good order, antd ill preventing breaches of the law as the chulrches. What are your courts of justier worth without tile sanctlionl of the nmoral senese of your citizens? What; giv~es efficiencyc to all your police regulations? W\hat sustains your officers inl executing your laws? It is the co~unten~ance and support of the virtuous and initelligent who are taught iln your churches. And yet the churches ask no aid of thle governments They de not come here asking for Priv t t t t t t c i i va i r t e F i 0 a 9 c 727 72 8 OHIO CONVENTION DEB3ATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 2G. to day, will to-morrow be ready to attack the Protest- 1 ant, because it is a Christian church-. Gentlemen lihae seen fit to talk here, about the fine ctiurchies, the splend'id pulpits, and cushioned seats of the churches, as if that were a subject of complaint' and furnished a legitimate ground for taxation. This also is one of the humbugs of tihe day —useful only as 1 a mneans of excititng prejudice, and never used for any other purpose: If a man occupies a seat in a church, w why has lie not a right to fit it up for the comtnfort and h convenience of his family as hlie pleases? Why cannot he be aillowed the meager privilege of worshipping God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and in such a church or seat as suits his taste or his means? The objects for which churches are organized is the worship of God, and the promotion of the pure prin- s ciples of the bible in society. In providing the means for these, they promote charity, do good to men, add to the peace andl good order of society, and contribute to the safety of the comimunity. In so doing they give a higher sauction to the laws, and throw a guard around the institutions of tihe state more impregnable than all the institutions of courts or other tribunals for the preveintioni or punishment of crime; and shall it be said that government cannot afford to let this great auxiliary;0o without taxation, or that because one society has to its church a higher steeple or a heavierbell than another, that therefore it shall tie taxed for it? There may be eases of useless expenditure, I do not say thereae not, I thinik there are, but do these case<, these exceptions justify the taxation of all the churches ii thestate? Mr. RE,EMELIN said that he could not help returnin" his most r,-spectfui thanks to the gentleman from Washington, Mr. EWART,) for furnishing so early an application of the reaiirks he (Mr. R.) had made on a forimer occasion, when thie same subject was under consideration. I then remnarksed, said Mr. R., that nothing but the merest preu(lice would, prevent the adoption of the honest prilciple "that all property in the State should be taxed equally" That gelileman's remarks are the qutlitessenceof the prejudice. I have referred to. Just listen to hia. He asks Why should churches be taxed? Ii reply, I ask hini why sholl d I be taxed? -why should steamboats he taxed? Why should our farmis be t'ixed? Why our workshlops? Why our mechanics? Why our crops? Whly should anybody b, taxed? The answer is easy to all such inquiries. The reason for all taxation is thau our goverlnment, which protects all property alike, must needs have money to carry on its operations, and contributions are therefore levied upon our citizens for the purpose of supporting our government. To say that to tax churches is to persecute them, is to say also that to tax thie farner, the mechanic, the nierichant aid the nmanufacturer, is to persecute then. Or can any inan teli me, why to tax a church is perFecutlou, anuid why it is not also persecution to tax the (.~ilon,"s is thlevericst humbug of our day; and the p.utleman trom Washiiigton, (Mr. EwART.) need not 1;ilk so lously abotut demagogueism, "for men who live inl glass houses should not throw stones " For I as y whoat is itt but thi tal k of a deboaggue and one of the most dangerous character, because clothed in the religious garb, to talk o f the application of an1 equitableu princtiple of taxation to all property, as an tact of persecution!' Why, the saddle is on the oth er horse! hVe attack nobody —we persecute nobody — oll the contrary, we are on the defensive. All we have contended for is that all the pr ope rty in t he State, no t bel onging to the pub lic, and whrich is only to be enjoye d exclusively by the individual c itizens, or which afford to individuals especial ease, comfort, or emolu m ent, or pleasure, should be subject to taxation. We have not si)gled out chrelhes-we do not want them ta xed anv more t han any other propert y, and It, at least, should vote against any proposition whiche would in the least, throw a he avier burthen, o7 a special burthen upoion church property, other than upod any other species of property. We are no w defending ourselves against propositions which are intended to exaempt property from taxation, for be it ever remembered that we dot) not tax here —we can pass no tax laws-all we'have to do ia to settle the general principle. It is a great error to suppose even that we can levy a tax-.1ll we sblold do is to settle the principle; and all we should say is that "all property shall be subject to taxation." There we should stop; and leave to the Genera} Assembly the application oftoe principle thus laid down. It is another error to suppose that the question is as to how much money shoul(l be raised by taxation. The amount will in all cases be the same. Tie question is not, therefore, whether an additionar, tax shall belevied upon churches, or whether they shall pay a special tax. No such proposition is before us —no, such can find any favor with me. The question is only who shall pay the taxes neessary for the support of government? We on the one side, contend that property should be the measure of every man's taxes; and that the term should include with every iiidividual all property which contributes to his private emolument or is subject to private ownership. You on the other hand, contend that certaii property shall not bear its portion of the burthens of society. These exemptions we oppose, because the,y work serious i}njustice, and because they violate all correct priniieples of equ i ty. To show that we are right il this, let me ill astrate: The property of the State which will be on} the dupicate at the ne-xt general revaluation, will amount tol $609,000,ePO. AL-tax of two mills on the dollar prodtices $1.200,000; which covers the amount of tax necessary for the support of the State department Now if you e.xempt $100,000.000 from taxation, it will leave oln the (luplicate $5,000,000; and it will require 2ymills on the dollar to bring about a reveniue of $1,200,00.1; or an increase of taixationi of 25 per cent. to every individual in the State for every dollar of property he holds. It will, I suppose, not be denied that there is at'east one hundred million-s of property exempt from taxation throughout the State. The result, therefore, of these:eemptions, is an increase of taxation to individuals. Or again, to get nearer home. There would be next year upon the duplicate of HIanmil ton county, if' all property were assessed, $50,000,000; and an average tax of I per cent will produce $500,0'J0. Now it will not be denied, that in this county there is exetnpted from taxation property to the amount oif $5,000,000, and therefore there will remais a duplicate of $45,000,000; and to raise $500,000, it will take a tax of 1S per cent., and a citizenl of Hamilton county worth $10,000 would on the one case pay $100 per annlum,tax; while under your e xempt~ons, he will have to pay $192. Now I ask upon what princ~ipte Lto you take these $~25 from this individual citizen? Upon what principie do you tax him in]volunttarily for/the support ofS churches, State works, banks, orF ally other species of property? Upon what principle can it be defended, except upon the samse princtiple which Justifies auanionr of church and State? OHIO CON VENTION I)EjATES-WEDNEsDAY, FEBRUARY 26. 729 upon the subject. But after members will have exhausted all their high-toiied words of reproach, after they shall have bandied French infidelity into our ears, I modestly ask that some one of them will discuss the true question, which is-Why exemptions should be made, and if made whether they do no;t amount to an involuntary contribution towards tht support of the interest so exempted? This question I would like to have answered, an(l if not, I shall regard it as mn admission, that a fog i to be raised, and that intimidation is to frighten nee from a full and fair consideration of the subject. Mr. ARCHBOLD. Mr. President; the gentleman from Hamilton, (Ma. RrEEMELIN,) has endeavored ta prove that it is one of our privileges to tax the Tenples of God, to sell o e t ae a n tr them f or the taxes and turn them into s tables if we see fit. This is one of o ur undisputed privileges-but another questi on re mains, will the exercise of this privileg ae make us more happy happiness, be it reemebered, is the onl y rational on ject of men or nations. I have very little respect my, self for those rights and p rivil eges, the exercise of whi ch r enders u s unhappy. Such policy reminds me of the inimitable sarcasm of Bvron on those old Predestinariains who, as he says, guarded with such sedulity "the privileges of their damnation," (laughter.) What, has it come to this? Is the great State of Ohio, with its millions dt eople, to adopt the habits of a Ranter —of a Field Vreacher-in collecting its revenues? Have gentl tlemen been present on such occasions, and if what have they witnessed? Wlhv, after all our lower passions have been appealed to, after we have been stirred up to emulation, wrath. strifb and passion against other sects-in one word,after aill our low aniretal passions have been moved, the hat is sent round for a collection, and thus this ghostly dispenser of hate and malignity secures his revenues. Genitlemen are about to introduce similar scenes into our churches, into the sacred temples of God, and that by Constitiitional provision. Under this system w e will, on the holy Sabbath day, perhaps, attend the services in a Methodist, a Baptist, or a Presbyterian Church. After we have been electrified-after all our better feelings have been roused by sacred eloquence-after we have been inspired with greater reverence towards God, and superior benevolence towards men-alter we have made ten thousand vows to be better men, better citizens, and better Christians, we are doomed to hear the voice of the Preacher in woful dissonanm with the sacred occasion. "My brethren" says he, "it is well known to you, that our house of worship is in arrearages for taxes (laughter)-the original amount is already swelled by interest and penalties, and if we suffr it to g to sale, the expenses and penalties will be much greater. We must make a collection. I entreat you to give liberally, do not think of your private prop, erty, think only of your pious liberality and generosity, (renewed laughter.) It is unfortunately true, that some rich men will refuse to give; we maiy la ment over the hardness of their hearts, but the remedy must come from a higher source, than is in our power, anld, alas! alas!! we have no hopes, that tl~ cure will take place in time for this present emergen, cy, (continued laulghter.) Therefore my dear Brethren, consullt nothing but your piety, and give, qIv:,, GIVE liberally, without reference to your pecuniary means. May I not appeal to you in the most moving accents, is there a man w5it~hin these walls, who has here par. taken of the sacred elements, and who has listened to the Words of Life around this Altar, that can bearths thought of seeing our beloved Temple of God sold But still further to illustrate. There is in Zanesville a school fund called the "McIntyre Fund," amounting to $80,000, a tax of three mills on the dol lar, which at our present State taxes amounts to $240. That fund has often asked to be exempt from taxation, and I ask, if it were exempt. why we in Hamilton county should pay $30 per annum, for that would fall to our share, for having schools in Zanesville. Or, again, there is in the Western Reserve, the Western Reserve College, whose property amounts to near a million of dollars. Mr. ANDREWS, (interposing.) The property of that College amounts to about one hundred thousand dollars. Mr. REEMELIN. Well, $100,000 then, for the principle is the same for one dollar as for a million. The tax on that $100,000 would be three hundred dollars for State purposes, and I ask why we in Hamilton county should pay forty dollars fcr that college. I do not single out these institutions because I dislike them. No, I bid them God speed! All I want to do is to illustrate the results of exemptions, andl I trust I have shown that all exemptions are really exactions from other portions of our people, and that the only honest rule is to tax all property equally, for thus only can you equalize taxes. For, I repeat, it is not a question as to how much taxation shall be levied. the only question is who shall pay it? and what shall be the measure of taxation? And do not let us forget, that as yet we are but, on the threshold of the evil. It is rapidly increasing, and the time will come wihen the people of Ohio will bitterly repent that they had a majority of special exemptionists in this convention! 0, how sickening ist it to my hear t, that the bitter experience of France, of England, of Ge(rmany, of Spain, is to be again the bitter experience of this people, and that we will never improve our action by the beacon light of the bitter experience of others!! Tihe special ex,emnptioniists are adroit in their moveements -ithev raise the raise the cry of persecutionthey are calling uponI Hercules to help them. The Catlholics, too must be dragged into this controversvy -we must be held up as the enemies of the lofty spires of their churelies —as the enemies of architecture, as atheists, and I hardly know what other raw head and bloody bones they are conjuring uLp. All this does not disturb me. We can bide our time, and that time will yet show who is the frienid of all-thee special exemptionist, or the friend of equal rights and equal laws! Y(ea, that time will show, that no cause can have a bitterer enemy than him who, amidst an equal paiticipition of blessings asks for any propertv special exemptions. I can only say that, I admire architecture, and that for me the loftiest spire is only an incentive to elevate my principles of liberality, with which I respect all religious denomination-s. With me the painter's pencil is but an instrument of labor, just the same as the bl)acklsmith's hanmmner. When I discuss a question of taxation, then I will not be drawn into a discussion of the relative merits or demerits of anv interest or of any institution. It is a qutestion of dollars and cents, and to that point will I recur at all tiues and at allpw ai a hazards. I do not hate the farmer, but still my general principle includes his property, nor do I hate charters, because their property comes within the same general principle. To tax is not to persecute, and the man who talks thus talks at randon, and instead of discussing a question of political economy, he is discussing a question not relevant to the subject. But, Mr. Chairmann I do noti expect. to get clear of denunciation —that is part of the game to be played 730 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNSEDAY, F:BRURAY 26. to a speculator and turned into stables? Give there fore I say! consult not your worldly circumstances, you may be possessed of a mere pittance, yet give a part of that) and Heaven will bless the rest -. Bretren-send round the hat!" (Bursts of laughter.) Is this the mode in which the great State of Ohio is to collect her revenues? Oh national degradation! Oh descent from every idea of national greatness and dignity! Oh gentlemen, afflict not my eyes with such a spectacle as this. Afflict not my children with such a spectacle as this, they have hot, generous and An glo Saxotn blood running in their veins. Who will not blush to be a citizen of Ohio, when she begins to collect her revenues in such a beggarly manner as this? High spirited men will leave the State, they will not be citizens of such a Commonwealth. Gentlemen take it for granted, that every man is born a legislator-Zno need of reading, meditation or any preparatory study, the whole art comes by intuition. if they would come down from the clouds and deign to consult the voice of experience, they would be as little inclined towards this vexatious mode of collecting the revenues as I am. What are our books of political eonomny except drafts on the history, the experience of all l atons? They are well digested tables of stafistics-they proceed upon the principles of philosophy drawing inftrences from well established facts. Of much a character are the works of Smith, Say, Mills, Benl ham,Carey, and a host of others too tedious to name. If they will cond(lescend to consult Adam Smnith they will find that hlie lays down several principles of taxation, one of which is that the tax should not be vexatious in th collection. Now could a iy tax be so vexatious illn the collection as this church tax? It has every circumstance of difficulty and embarrassnment. As among the contributors the payments will not be proportioned to the property of the person paying but tohis pious liberalitv. But the tax also. has the odious feature of the poll tax-it is a tax levied without regard to the ability of an individual to pay. It makes an injurious distinection against the professors of religion and in favor of non-professors. The church itself has been bui.t by thle pious bounty of communicants, then you take the guage and measure of that bounty and levy a tax upon it. All meni ought to stand equally in the eye of tile law; but you tax the civil and secular property of the oim,municant and the non-conimunticant alike-you tax them in the same degree as to everything that can minister to their personal or family comfort. Then io It not evident that if you levy a tax on the bounty of the communicant bestowed in building a church, you tax him more heavily than the non-professor? You tax him by a standard that has no reference to his private, civil property,-that neither rises or falls with his ability;-is not this in the nature of a poll tax? The ald abominable, hearth tax, of England, was a tax upon property; yet, as every family, however poor, must have a hearth in that severe climate, it became one of the taxes most abhorred by Englanid and English men. To the poor the gospel has been preached since the days of the Apostles; if the government shall thus coInsent to torture the p,ous liberality of individuals it will often he seen in the odious attitude of collecting more money from the man of small property than from the man of large property. A late w riter ihas computed the average property of eve.ry family in Ohio at $2,000, and it is believed that one-half the adult population are church communir~nts, the other half non-communicants. Now suppose a village or settlement of 100 families, ~e 50 families of church members will, of course, possess $100,000, the 50 families of outsiders will possess the same amount. The State colle.s the same tax on the total civil property of each class-on every thing that they can devote to their emolument or comfort. Now if she goes farther and collects a tax on church property, is it not evident that she makes an injurious distinction against piety and religion and in favor of impiety and irreligion? Do not gentlemen know that this tax will be moat affli ctive to the pious prejudices of a great part of our own community? The Czar of Russia has to pay some attention to the prejudice of his subjects. He does not disregard them. Shall republican states. men, alone, be reckless as to the feelings, the sympa thies, and the prejudices of their people? Why, what affliction has not this very debate caused to our minds? I have said that this proposition is the vile spawn of Atheism, begotten upon infidelity. I intend no imputatioln upon the friends of this tax-I am well aware that they are not acquainited with the consequences of their own doctrines. They do not see where their principles land. The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. REEMELIN,) has arg,,ued that the cobbler, the hatter, the carpenter, and the blacksmith, must all pay taxes upon their shops and tools of trade, thus directly comparing the temples of God to a cobbler's shop. Can we listen to this language without affliction, without the violation of every early and cherished, and pious prejudice? Is not this putting no difference between the sacred and the profaned Gentlemen can understand this -principle when it is proposed to give the unfortunate African race, equal political privileges. Their feelings revolt, they say that prejudice is too strollg-tha-t it is invincible. The(y will not eat, or sleep, or go to the ballot box with the son of Harn. In common with them I am compelled to respect this prejudice. Under present circumstances I count opposition useless, Fret this prejudice is, in the abstract, unjust; the other'is saner titled b y eve ious-by every generous feeling! The newspa ers are fond of represenatinig political men as immoral and reckless —they may put out,what diatribes they please. With me they have lost the faculty of giving testimony. [Iau,hter.] It is true we are mere politicians, mere men of the world, and we pretend to nothing else; but is it to be supposed that we can forget our early and Christian education, -that we can forget principles instilled in inifancyhe most holy and the most generous. See that wild, reckless, wayw,ard boy, on the common, he is at his sports, perhaps in disobedience to his mother's commanlds. Do vou imagine that he has no affection for his mother? Offer her insult and indignity and you will soon discover what his feelings really are. So in our case, politicians, and men of the world, as we are. No remembrances ever steal into our bosoms so soft, so kindly, so generous, so elevating, as the remenmbrance of the period when our mothers took us by the hand and grided our little patterintg feet to the sacred temples of Geld. In looking back through the long vista of years there is no green spot so pleasing as this: Oh we think of the old church towers, Anid the sound of Sabbath bells, Oft heard amidst the bowers Where our childhood loved to dwell. Now if this system of taxation is so grievous, so unwelcome to our feelings, what moust it be to the feelings of professors of religion? If wte revolt at it will not they be shocked [Here the President's hammer fell, which announced to the speaker that his twenty minutes has expired.] Mr' HITCHCOCK. In the report of the committee on corporations other than corporations for banking, I find the following section: "Thie property of corpora I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNEsDAY, FEBRUARY 26. 731 tions shall be forever subject to taxation, the same as the property of individuals." Here thein is a general clause that applies to all the property of corporations. We have said that it shall all be taxed the same as the property of inaividuals. Now a great portion of the churches of the State have been incorporated by an act of the General Assembly, and if this clause applies to them, and thei r property should be taxed as that of individuals, it would amount to a very considerable suam. This clause also reaches all the co rporation s of the State, established for the purpose of internal improvement. A i1 rail road s, plank roads, turnpike com}an i es and bridges are to be taxed upon the i r property, as individuals are taxed. I apprehend thata tax so levied will be very unequal. It would be difficult to make it otherwi se. Suppose it is the p roperty of a rail road that is to be tax ed: Th at property consists of cars and depots and rail; on the road, amounting to one, two or thre e mil lio ns. All the res t of its property is in the franchise, and a franchise is said here, not to be property. You tax the r ail road upon it s cars, depots &c., and upon noth ing else, If such is to be the case, the churches i n Cincinnati w ill pay do uble the tax upon their property of the most costly railroad in the State. You can tax the church upon a ll t he p roperty it has, and it has no franchise; and y ou canno t tax the franchiises of a rail road, because they are not property. Mr. REEMELIN. Does the gentleman [Mr. HITCHOCFr] say that a franchise is not property? Mr. HITCHCOCK. Th e gentleman from Hnmilton, [Mr. REd.ELIN,] said so, and so did all upon that' side of the house excep t ei ght or fen, and they were called traitors. Thes gentl man f rom Hamilto n complains of the vast am ou n t of church property in Cincinnati, and insists th at all the c h urchl pr operty in the State shall be taxed because he th i nks that of Cincinnat i ought to be. Now, Mr. Chairman, the the question is, are we to make a constitution for the county of Hamilton alone, or the city of Cincinnati, or are we to make a constitution for the State f Oio? n other sections of tion t he State, not on e hundredth part of the property of the p eople is inll the ch urches. It is a mere trifle out of the city. Shall we then construct a constitution to meet the w an ts of the State, or shall we confine our labor s to the county of Hamilton and th e city of Cincinnati? For myself, I am disp ose d to believe that th e rights and in terests of the whole St at e are not and ought not to be sa crific ed to any c ity, county or part of its t erritory. The gentlemani from Ashtabula, (Mr. WOODBURY,) h ad a curiou s theory upon the subject of church taxation. He was anxi ou s t hat c hurch es sh ould be taxed because he thought it was the only way in which people c ould b e m ad e to p ay anything for the privilege of worshi ping God, according Lo the dictate s of their own consciences. Mr. WOODBURY. The gentleman, (Mr. tItTCUcocK,) is mistaken. I never said any such thing. Mr. HITCHCOCK. I do not profess to repeat the precise words used by the gentleman. I could not recollect themn; but the idea is that men ought to be taxed a little for the privilege of worshiping God according to the dictates of their consciences and that for that purpose, he would lay a tax upon the places where they worship. Now I had supposed that those places ought to be free. I bad not understood that it was ill accordance with the princeiples of justice, that because a man has contributed a little to build up a place of worship, he should be taxed upon his contribution. As the section now stanlds,it provides that the property of the State and of the counties shall be exempt from A taxation. Now there may be a reason for the exemp- tion of the property of the State;* but why that of the counties? W~hy not compel the property of the counties to contribute to the revenues of the State? It is because the property of the counties is public property. Yet there is a great appearance of inequality in this, gentlemen wile are disposed to find an intentional injustice in every equality ought to cry out against it. Some of the counties have expended large sums of money in beautifying their property. Some of them haye built expensive court houses-more expensive than their necessity required. Yet these are not taxed, because they are the property of the public, and do not belong to individuals. Now I say that in the same point of view, the churches are public property. Although individuals are interested in them they are to all intents and purposes, the property of the public, built fora public purpose, and intended for a public use. They are open to all. No man is ever refused aseat in them. The privileges they offer are free to all who desire to enjoy them. Then why la y a tax upon th em? Gentlemen insist that they are for private emolument, because the pews are sold. Those who hazard this remark c a n h ae have had little experience in the establishment of churches and the sup. port of the gospel. What are they sold for? Why to pay the salary of the minister, and for n othin g e lse. I eDean stae er e te have ner known an instance where they h ave been sold for the purpose of private gain. I do not wish to take up the time of the Convention; but it seems to me that gentlemen who insist upon the ta xation of church pro pe rt y are go ing be yond what aey ot her constitu tional convention has ever gone. There is not a sin gle constitution in any of the States, that contains such a provisions. And the only reason given is that there is so much church property in Cincinnati —that there is half a million of dollars of it. No I say it should not be taxed, and whether a large amount or a small one —whether invested in elegant and splendid edifices or in those that are more humble and less pre tending, it would seem to me to be far more in accor dance with the spirit of the age to exclude the whole. Mr. REMEELIN. I desire to correct one state ment of tne gentleman from Geauga. Ile stated that the movement started in Hamilton county* Now, the first petitions upon the subject, came from the We — tern Reserve. It started there. Mr. HITCHCOCK. Tlat may be the case, Mr. Chairman. There a great many good things in the Western Reserve, and a great many new things take their start in that quarter. I do not, however, stand up here to justify everything that comes from the Wes tern Reserve. Some gentlemen have asserted, that they have a great deal of fanaticism in that quarter, and the gentleman from Hamilton does not in general, look there for examples. There is doubtless some fa naaticism even there, as there are fanatics all over the state; and it is the fanatics who are so desirous to impose a burden of taxation upon tie churches, and if not to break them down, at least to make those who support them, pay for the privilege of worshiping God accord ing to the dictates of their own consciences. I hope the amendment will not prevail. Mr. BARNET of Montgomery. Mr. Chairman, I desire the indulgence of the committee for a few mo ments only, while I express my views upon the subject now under consideration. I must say, that I am heartily sorry, that this effort to tax church property, has~., been made, and that it has come from a source where it oughtto have been better considered. And I wish here to return my thanks to the gentleman from Monroe, for his observations upon the question, and to It say, that they were such as, in mny opillion, did honor i to his head and to his heart. Itc gave a true picture ,of the effect of an attempt to carry this proposition in4 to practice. Gentlemen upon the other side, have I shownl great ignorance of the matter they have at; 732 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. tempted to discuss; and had they been connected with ses? That was all. I said nothing about the taxation a religious socitety, they would not have said what they of a nian's faith —nothinig about making him pay for did. Their deviation from the truth, is only excusable liberty ofconscience, and nothing either for, or against upon the presumption of their total ignorance of what any sect or denominiation of Christians whatsoever. they were talking about. And now, I ask again: Why shall not a man who Gentlemen have carried the idea that churches are has invested his property in a church,be taxed? They built by rich capitalists, for the purpose of speculation, are free agents; they choose to invest their estate in and that a great profit is realized. T'hey are mistaken. that form, but shall they by doing so, escape taxation? In almost every case, the pews of a church, if sold, If they are permitted to do so, the result is inequality. would not pay the cost of its erection. It is not, and One man is taxed upon his property, the other is not. cannot be built for the purpose of profit, and no manl I have the highest respect for the Christian faith-too ever heard of a church built on speculation. The usu- high, to see it pleaded as a ground upon which men ask al course is this: When a church is to be built,a fund is to he exonerated from the duties of citizens. raised for the purpose, among those who take an inter- Gentlemen say that they know of no instance where est in the enterprise. These persons take the pews at pews in a church, have been sold at private sale. Now a price sufficiently high to cover the cost of the edifice, I have, and I have known suits brought to recover the and I never heard in any one instance, that they in price for which they were sold. The thing is not un their market or real value, exceeded it. Those who common, and I anm surprised at the assertions of those belong to religious societies, have taxes to pay for the who seem so ignorant of a very common occurrence. support of ministers, and for other purposes, which Mr. LOUDON. Remarkshavebeenniadehere,Mr. gentlemen here appear to know nothing about. It is a Chairman, which, if suffered to go abroad without ex pity that we have so little practical knowledge upon a planation, may place the committee that reported this subject of so much importance to the people and to the bill, in a wrong light before the people of the State. State. On this account, as a member of the committee, I de The question, Mr. Chairman, for us to determine is: sire the indulgence of this body for a moment. We Are the churches a benefit, or an injury to the com- had no prejudice whatever, any of us, in favor, or nmunity? If they are an injury, in God's name, tax against any religious denomination. We regarded them. Let them be taxed, until they break down un- thlem all in the same light, whether Presbyterians, der the operation. But, on the other hand, if they are Methodists, or Catholics, and we were only guided in a benefit-if their tendency is to make better men and our action is this matter, by what we regarded as the citizens-if they aid in the preservation of the peace of sentiments of the people of the State. We believed society-if they stand as the conservators of the public that the wants of the State required, at our hands, a morals-if thev make men more obedient to the laws, provision that should secure the largest possible amount let them be sustained. Let not even governments be of revenue and we were induced to adopt this see afraid or ashamed to aid the efficiency ofso potent, and tion, because we believed that it was best caculated to at the same time, so inoffensive agents, in promoting the secure the object in view. public welfare. The section provides for an uniform rate of taxation It should be remembered in this connection, that upon all property, real and personal, provided burying those who give their aid in support of churches, have grounds, public school houses, houses used exclusively also in general, other benevolent objects which demand for public worship, to an amount not over two thoustheir assistance, aid that those only who pay nothing and dollars, should be exempt. I'The latter clause fixin support of the ordinances of religion, are able to as- inf the amount of church property to be made exempt sort that proud independence which exonerates them from taxation, was inserted in obedience to what we befrom all obligation to do good to their fellow nmen. If lieved to bethepublic sentimentof the State. Tliat,after churches do their duty, they contribute to the support much discussion in committee, has been stricken out. of their own poor, (and I should not estimate that Our object was to bring as much property upon the duchurch very highly, that did not do so,) and I will ven- plicate as possible, and we had no other. We had no ture to hazard the assertion, that members of churches desire to reach the property of the Catholics, any more and religious societies, who contribute to the support than any other religious denomination. I am willing of their churches, as any other class of men. And will to extend, and as far as possible, to secure to all the taxation of churches add to their ability or their effi- right to worship God according to the dictates of their cielicy in this matter? Will it not, on the contrary, consciences, and would be the last man to vote to give be taking from that very poor, whose interests gentle- one denomination an advantage over the other. men seem to have so much at heart, when they talk I am at a loss to know, Mr. Chairmnan, why it is, about corporations and banks, and all the clap traps of that the gentleman from Monroe, [Mr. AaCHBtOLD, the day? has become so sensitive upon this matter, and why he Mr. President, 1 hope the amendment will not pre- is so tender and anxious, whenever he deems the Cathvail. olic religion is in danger. I remember, it is true, that Mr. WOODBURY. It would seem, Mr. Chairman, since the sessions of this body commenced, a certain as if gentlemen were determined to mistake my posit Catholic newspaper, called the Telegraph, was down tion upon this question. Now, sir, I did not attempt upon him, in regard to certain votes that lie had given. to sustain the proposition attributed to me, by the gen- I co not know what effect it had upon him, but I have tleman from Geauga, [LMr. HITCHCOCK,] nor did I as- sometimes been induced to believe that its strictures sert it. 1 said nothing about taxing a man because he have caused that Anglo Saxon blood of his to freeze in desired to worship God according to the dictates of his his veins. I hope it is not so. Events may unfold the own conscience-not a word. truth. But I rose to say, that I wash my hands of any I said it was a question whether certain species of intentional disrespect towards the Catholics, Methoeproperty should be taxed. I held that the true doe- dists, Presbyterians, or any other sect or denomination trine is, that all the property of the State should aid in of Christians, either in Hamilton county, or in any defraying the expenses of government. I stated, that other part of the State. churches in as high a degree as any other property re- Now, Mr. Chairman, in regard to the question of the ceived the protection of the laws and the government; exemption of the property of the State, of counties and and I inquired whether, under these circumstances, of townships, from taxation, we believed it would be they ought not to pay their share of the public expen- useless to tax the property of the State. We have a OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. public square, and unfinished State house,also an Uni- ernment, and they could not subsist wits: wnt it. I ted States' court house, in which the State has an in- hope sir, that the amendment will prevail, and though terest, our publi; institutions, and perhaps other pro- I do not say that I will not vote against the constituperty at Coluilu;i,,: the counties have also their public tion if this principle is not recognized, I will say that I squares and tli..D.urt houses-and the townships, in shall support this instrument far more cheerfully if it some cases, telt'v t.wi houses. These might be taxed, is. it is true, biet the taxation would be only a process of Mr. OTIS. Will the gentleman from Hamilton, taking from one pocket, to put into another, while the (Mr. HOLMES,) bekind enough to state his reason for percentage would stick to the fingers of the officers who the exemption of school houses fi-om taxation, while collected the tax. churches are taxed? Now, sir. I am opposed to the amendment of the gen- Mr, HOLMES. In reply, I say that the one is the tletnan from Ashtabula. to strike out thewords"houses product of involuntary taxation, and of course the used exclusively for public worship," and I should have property of the public, while the other is the result of retained the words, "to an amount not over two thou- voluntary donation, and is the property of individuals. sand dollars." If all the property of churches is taxed, I would be willing to exempt all builtin,gs that are btilt I know that demagogues will take hold of the fact, and by taxation, as well as the public buildings of counties use it against this constitution, and therefore [ shall and townships. agree that all may be exempt, whether the anmount be Now sir; there ark, in this city a number of inetitaone thousand or half a million. tious that eispense a charity as wide as that of any Mr. HOLMES. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that is church. Yet these are taxed, ant(i they do not coma question of expediency mnerely, and that it does liot plain. They are willing to pay it.'lhey dispense involve a single particle of right. I am aware, sir, that charity to hundreds and thousands of the poor the any attempt to provide in an organic law, that the Leg- wretched, the abandotned and the homeless. Then if islature shall impose a tax upon church property, will these institutionsare taxed, why I ask, should churchmeet with strong opposition from many; and if we are es be exempt? to believe the as-ertion of the gentleman from Monroe, Mr. OTIS. The gentleman frotn Hamilton, (Mr. [Mr. ARCHBOLD.] we shall have all the church ma,l- HOLMES,) objects to the exclusion of the Property of t)ers in the Slate, and every member of every philan- churches from taxation, upon the ground t!-at churchthropic society, arrsyed in one unbroken phalanx, es are erected by the voluntary contriltutiollns of those against this cotistitution. Now, I can say, that among who are interested in thenm, while he is willing tiat my own constituents, I have met and consulted with school houses shall be exetil)t beoasoa they are the promany members of the churches, who are anxious that duetsof involuntary taxation. Now this reay be a a provision to tax church property, shall be eugrafted good reasoni, why school houses s5;old Hot be taxed, in the Constitution. They are not mere outsiders- but it is not the ground upo!i which tlie fathers of the they are not men who despise religion, or repudiate country placed it. They held and de clared ithat relimorality; my consultations have not been with men gion and morality are essential to good Iov(.rlmnenr, of that class; but the opinion comes from the sober and that because without religion atid morality no govminded, the thinking and the pious. They say that ernmetit can exist, they held it to be a h)g atid imthe principle of the hill as reported by the comrni'tee, perative duty to sustain the means by which religion is right:, and that it is lut just and proper, that church- and morality are secured and promroted. For thlis reaes should be taxed. And some have even gone so far son they made b)othl churches anid ecold houses exas to say, that itf this principle is not incorporated, they empt from tax-ition, and for this pur',.ce ti;ey made will vote against this constitution. both the subjects of the fostering car ot tEle govern Now, sir, as I said before, this is a question of expe- ment Religion and morality renter a i weriful assistdiency, and so we must look at it. ance in support of the government, artd it is ildue from We have got to combat the common prejudices of the 3State in return that the meals of eeIcation and the people, against any novel form of taxation, before the means of morsl improvement sh,utl be elicourag it will be well received by all. But this difficulty is ed and supported. Where therearea plinty of ch lrch not a formidable one, atnd when men have seen that es and school houses a police becomes u nnecessary, the principle upon which it is founded is correct, and tit" criminal court is rarely appealed to; and iii their prejud;ces will subside. stead of its being a mere question ofe.expedlienc whleth Sir, if it be correct in principle that property be tax- er or not the churches of the Stale s'iall 5e tixed, I ed accordinig to its true value, I go for this taxation. hold it a matter of right that. they should he exempt; We who reside here in Cincinnati, more than those of and that taxation would, in fact hb: an act of injustlce. any other part of the State, feel the burdens of taxa- It is probable, Mr. Chairmati, that the cihurches of tion. The assessor riakes.his annual round, and we the State include about one fourth of its ppoulation. must either commit perjury, or list and pay taxes upon They purchase their ground, and b:i-7d their edifices all our real and personal estate, our rights and credits. by volutitary contributioni. They ask l0 aid from the Now sir; I regard all churches alike. There is a government, and contribute largely to give it strength great deal of pride in them all, and an extravagance I and permanency. They dispenise charity in various and splendor, frequently little in consonance with ways, and scatter blessings in every direction. There christian humility; and I believe that where an indi- is no reason in the ends they seek to proniote —nonie in vidual makes his election. and invests his five hundred the results which they produce-anne in the functions or his thousand dollars in them,if he is disposed to do so, they perform which should bring them under a differ in preference to any other investment-that can be no ent rule from that which applies to semina ies of edu good reason why he should not be taxed upon it, so cation, In fact they are seminaries of eil,;uc;ation-of longas the merchant, the mechlanuc, and the laborer the highest, the noblest, the most valuable species of are taxed. I do not oppose nor wish to prevent the learning. building of magnificent churches, though I confess Tie difference pointed out by the gentleman from hat it has seemed to mie that the more gorgeous the Hamilton, (Mr. HOLrMFS,) is merely accidental, and not edifice, the less piety it contained; but I do say that intrinsic. It is not founded in principle, but merely if men will invest their money in these structures, they in incident. Government undertalake. the supp.rt of ought to be willitg to bear their portion of the burdens education, because it is necessary for its existence, of the State. They enjoy the protection of the gov. and because the people, without its aid and supervi 733 734 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. sion, are supine, and will not come up and support those institutions of learning which are necessary for the public welfare. Government does not levy taxes to build churches and support the teachers of religion and morality because the people, feeling an interest in the subject, have relievedit of the burden. But there is no diffe rence in the functions of the two-no difference in the objects they are intended to secure-no difference in the duties they perform. Both look to the happiness and well-being of man, in this life and hereafter. They are parts of the same system, dependent upon each other, and each aiding the other to reach the end that both are aiming at. Why then should we impose an additional tax upon those who have assumed this extraordinary burden, for the public good? Gentlemen have visions of splern did churches, and cannot attempt to reason upon this subject, without imagining that members of churches are nabobs, rolling in wealth-that churches are pal aces, shining il all that is gorgeous and costly-that pew-holders are like the stockholders in banks, with Immense wealth invested in pews for the purpose cf speculatior, realizing from them an enormous income. They talk of pulpits, and cushions, and carpets, as if neatness were a crime, and taste and comfort were atheism and idolatry, or —what is worse —aristocracy. Whiy, where do gentlemen get all this? Have they ever been to church? Do they not know that, as a general rule, men in moderate circumstances contri bute to such objects more, in proportion to their means, than men of wealth? It is true, whether they know it or not. And would you lay an additional burden of taxation upon those who are contributing to sup port those institutions of religion and morality, which lie at the very foundation of the State? I hope, sir that the amendment may not prevail, as w el l for the eake of justice, as for the sake of expediency. The question then being on the motion of Mr. WooBayRY, to strike out the following: "houses used exclusively for public worship." The same was disagreed to —yeas 17, nays not counted. Mr. BARBEE moved further to amend the section, by striking out the following: "Provided that bury ing grounds, public school houses, houses used ex clusively for public worship, institutions of purely public clharity, the property of the State, of counties, townships, cities, and towns, may, by general laws, be exempt fioom taxation;" and to insert iii lieu there of, the fbllowing: "The General Assembly may, by general laws, exempt the property of the State, coun ties, and townships, real and personal, and such other property for municipal, educational, religious, and charitable purposes, as, in their wisdom, may be for the general good." Mr. BARBEE. I have offered this amendment, with a view of leaving the whole matter in the hands of the General Assembly, without specifying any kind of property. In the bill, the words "public school houses" are used. Now, it may be questionable, whether the exemption is broad enough to be just. So in relation to churches, it may be doubtful whether the ground they stand on is exempt. Mr. TAYLYO'I nerved to amend the words proposed to be stricken out, by striking out of the eighth line the words, "may by;eneral laws be exempt from taxation," and ~nsertinfg in lieu thereof, the followingw in the tifl 1tiie: "the General Assembly, may, by general Iaws, recrit the taxes upon"- - Tshe quest ion then being( on the amendment; /vr..TAYL7IOR. The object is to save the principle that all prolpertv shall he taxed for the support of th he government. We assert the principle in regard to all, but leav o e to the Legislature the powe r to re mit in cef - tain casos, that are enumerated. The question being on the amendment, The same was disagreed to. The question then being on the amendment of Mir. BARBEE, The same was reject ed. Mr. STILWELL moved further to amend the see tion, by inserting in the seventh line, afte r the word "Sta te," the words, "or ofn the United S tates.,." It was agreed to. Mr. STILWELL moved further to amend the see tion, by inserting in the fifth line, after the words "public school houses," the words, "or property used exclusively for educational purposes, and not for pri vate or individual profit." The question beingon the amendment, Mr. STILWELL. I have my doubts of the compre hensiveness of the provision as it stands. The gen tleman from Hamilton, (Mr. R.EEMELIN.) insists that under it, all school houses are exempt from taxation. That'is not my idea. We have now declared that all the Churches in the State shall be exempt from taxation, and all places of public worship, and I think gentlemen will have no objection to make the exemption of school houses as broad as that of the other. The object of the amend ment is to include all those educational establish ments, that are intended for purposes purely educa tional, and for no private emolument. B3y the phrase public school house, we include all our colleges and academies. Is it not advisable to do so? It is true, that if we were forced to select between the common schools and the higher seminaries, it would be our duty to choose the former; but no such necessity ex ists. But the others are important-I had almost said equally important. Indeed the one cannot well exist without the other. It may be said that this ex emiptioni in fav,r of the higher schools and colleges, will only operate for the benefit of those who are rich, and who can, when they send their sons to col leL,e afford to pay the difference in the expense occa sioned by the taxation of the institution. It is not always so. It is true that it will make no difference to the man of wealth. He can afford to pay the five or ten dollars, and will not feel it, but to a poor voung who is calculating whether he wil be able to over come the difficulties of his situation, and obtain a college education, the small sum of five or ten dollars, may make a very great difference. I am satisfied that if we wish that the common schools of the State should advance, we must foster the high schools. There is another thing: all funds devoted exclusively to educational purposes, and which are of no profit to others, should be exempt from taxation. A-rd this leads me to speak upon a subject connected with a particular fund of which I know sometliing, and which has been already alluded to. The city of Zanesville has a fund, left to it, by a benevolent individual, amounting at present to about thirty thousand dollars. Circumstances that may take place, will probably increase this sum to nearly or quite eighty thousand; but gentlemen will make no charge of aristocracy ag~ainst the fund, or the city to which it was donated, when they are informed that it was given exclusively for the education of poor children; and I trust that no local feeling will operate upon any of us, to induce uls to gro for taxing funds of this sort, either there or elsewhere. To do so would be to deter men from investing their funds for the benefit of the poor. Sulch interests as these, we are all bound to foster, without reference to one locality more than another. It is true that the funds are expended in OHIO CONVENTION DEBATE-,WEDNESDAY, FERBUARY 26. one location, but the men that are educated are the citizens of the State, and in that sense, the whole State is the gainer by the charity. It is to be hoped therefore, that such provisions will be made as shall, as far as possible, secure and foster every pure educational interest, whether general or local. Mr. LOUDON. I am glad that the gentleman from Muskingum, (Mr. STILWVELL,) has made this motion. By so doing he has called up a subject which he understands, and into which I wish to inquire. It is said that the Ohio University, at Athens, had donated to it by the State, two townships of land. This land is leased out to tenants at seventy-five cents per acre, and the occupants pay to the institution six per cent. on the value of the lands leased. These landspay no taxes for either State or county purposes. ow this, if true, seems unjust. Can the gentleman, (Mr. STILwELL,) inform us as to the facts? Mr. STILWELL. The secretary of the institution -the gentleman from Athens, (Mr. BRowN,) is present and can give much fuiller information than myself. There were two townships of land donated to the University, which in 1800 or 1801, were valued at otie dollar per acre. It was leased out to individuals, the occupants to pay six per cent. upon the appraisal. Mr. BROWN of Athens. The two townships of land were by the donation committed to the care of the State. The act of incorporation of the college provided that the land should ever remain free froin taxation for State purposes. The lands were leased at a rent of six per cent. upon their valuation. This is now low it is true; but a contract was entered into, and it cannot be changed. Under the law, the land s are taxed for county but not for State purposes, and it is neither in the power of this Convention nor of any other bodv to i mpose taxes for State purposes. Rome of the lands have been sold, and the money received from the sale has been deposited in the State treasury, and is now loaned out to the canal sinking fund. These lands have been taxed for State purposes. A question was made upon the subject, and the matter, after being carried through the courts of the State, went up to the Supreme Court of the United States, where it was decided that after they had become individual property they were subject to taxation for State purposes; but so long as they remained the property of the University they were exempt fromt State taxation. Mr. LOUDON. I ala obliged to the gentleman, (Mr. BaowN,) for the information. These lands then, it seems, which pay to the University an income of six per cent. upon their valuation can never be made to) pay a tax for the support of the government of the State. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. Is section sixteen, while it remains the property of the township, ever taxed for State purposes? It is when it is sold and becomes the property of individuals, but not while it belongs to the township. Mr. LOUDON. We come here to make a new start in government and to correct the errors of the past. It is riot right that these two townships of land, worth thirty or forty thousand dollars, should be exempt from taxation to support the government of the State, while the homestead of the poor man is taxed to the last cent that it is worth. This may sir, be right in the opinion of courts, but I am not prepared to savy that the courts are correct in this matter. I desire to place the citizens upon the same ground with the citizens of Brown. I desire the aid of the gentleman from Monroe, and I call upon him to come up and sustain the rural districts. The question then being on the amendmenert of Mr. STILW ELL: On motion of Mr. HUNTER the convention took up the report of the committee onl finance and taxation. The question being on the first amendment proposed by the committee of the whole to wit: In section 2 strike out the words "to an amount not overd'two thou sand dollars." Mr. SAWYER. I shall not vote for this amendmenit. I believe that the words ought to remain in the section. I cannot see any reason why a church should enjoy la constitutional right of being exempt from taxation in all their property in possession, above a certain sum, as well as an individual. We propose to exempt $2,000; and I think every church in the State ought to be satisfied with that. For if they have a surplus above that, the greaterportioin of it must be for display or interested speculation. The churches certainly cannot reasonably complainof this so long as it is remembered that there are other institutions amongst us (the orders of free masons, and odd fellows,) which dispense charities with a very liberal hand, and are taxed to the exten t of the ir property. 1 have not much to say upon this subject, Mr. PresideInt, and and I am willing to giv e over every disposi. tion to debate if we can have the vote. I will content myself with demanding the veas and nays. Mr. DORSEY. I had concluded this morning not to say any thing upon this subject, thinking that it had been already amply discussed, but the sunject has been brought up again, and the discussion has taken such a range that the probability is we shall have to go over some of the same ground o f debat e which has been occupied before. I hope, sir, that the amendment of the committe e will be sustained, and that the words "to an amount not over two thousand dollars," will be stricken out. *A If gentlemen will read this proviso attentively, I think they will see that a construction may be put upoin it different from any which has ever been given to it. The language is: "Provided that burying grounds, public school houses, houses used exclusively for public worship, to all amount not over two thousand dollars." This language may be legiti. mately construed as prescribing that neither burying grounds, public school houses, nor houses for public worship, shall be exempted beyond the value of two thousand dollars. I have not heard that construe, tion put upon it before, but it certainly would be fair and legitimate. tBut I will not insist upon it. I will take the construction which confines this limit to houses used exclusively for public worship. But let us look at the remainder of the proviso. It provides further, that "institutions of purely public charity, the property of the State, of counties, townshlips, cities and towns, may, by general laws, be exempt from taxation." Your court houses and jails, 7'3 5 Mr. LOUDON moved that the committee rise, report gress, and ask leave to sit a,,aiD; which was a,relroto, and the comi-oitte rose an'ct the chairman reti ported that the committee had had under considers. on Report No. 2, of the standing committee on Finaiice and Taxatioii, and had come to no resolution thereon. on motion of'Mr. S,'41TH of Wyandot, the Cou. velltion took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. 21- 1"2 O'CLOCK, P. X On motion of Mr. FIUNTER, the coriiinittee of the, whole was discharged I'tom the furthpr colisideratiot. of report No. 2 of the committee on finance and taxation. TAXATION OF CHURCHES. 736 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WE{rNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. for the preservation of law and order, are to be ex- For these reasons I hope the amendment of the 1 Ad.. 1,.,.. ~~For these reasons I hope the amendment of the empted. You do not say that these buildings, cost- committee of the whole will be sustained. I hope ilg only two tlhousand dollars and under, shall be gentlemen will not allow themselves to incorporate exempted, but you exempt the most costly edifices of anything into the Constitution which is calculated to this character; and there is as much difference in the array a religious feeling-the influence of a good re cost of court houses, as there is between the cost of I ligious principle-against this Constitution And if churches. Yet you allow the former to be exempted this amendment should be incorporated, I could not to the whole amrount of their cost. This may be but regard it'as striking a blow at those institutions right. I do not say that it is not. But I do say that which are doing an incalculable amount of good tothe when you exempt these buildings andtaxthe churches, whole community; an amount of good of which we all you begin at the wrong end of the work. You ex- are the uncenscious recipients. We do not value the empt those buildings which are reared for the trial influence of the churches as we ought; but if we anct punishment of crime, whilst you impose a tax could once be bereft of this influence, then we might upon those institutions which are doing more for the knoweto some extent, the vast amount of benefit which preservationiof law and social order in the communility, weare deriving from it than all vour cour t houses an([ jails ever have done But it has been said that some churches hold prop or ever will do. I was surprised to hear an argument, this morning erty which is not part or parcel of their place of wor aI was:;urised to hear an argument,c this morning bship Well, if they have property from which they agains ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~, _.en, c o in f.. PP.. oagainst this anmendment, coming freom the gentleman derive a revenue, I certainly could have no objections from Ahotiabula [Mr. WbOODauY.] We of the south- to all such property being taxed. But, in the name ern counties have been accustomed to look upon our of the good people of Ohio, I ask that no revenue fellow citizens of the north as belonging to the moral shall ever be raised by imposing a tax upon those portion of the State. Our northern fellow citizens sacred places where the people gather themselves to are mostly fromn the land of steady habits, and by gether to worship God according to the dictates of common consent they are held -Par excellence as the their own consciences. moral portion of the State. Therefore, I say, it sound- Mr. REEMELIN. I have all along expected that ed very strangely in my ears to hear an argument of this argument would at long expected to just what the the kind whiche came from the gentleman from Ashtta- thls arumean frould at Milast co(Mr.e to just w, hat lasthe bula. I could not avoid thinking that we of the gentleman Miami, (Mr. Doalv,) has at last, sou rn outi oenot a uo the Staemight fathar t e b o er disclosed. But let it always be understood that we southern portion of the Sta~te-might fear to be over-!aeatn pntedfnie htw r eedn are acting upon the defensive, that we are defend'n whelmed by a torrent of Vandalism, such as came ourselves ag,ainst any attempt to put into the conistidown froim the north upon the southern part of tution any special exemptions. Europ in days of old. I looked for better things tulnaySpecial exenmptions. Europe in days of old. I looked for better things The gentleman from Miami, places our churches from that gentleman, and I hope still that he will be upon the same footing with our public edific es. It is convinced he has not taken the right course for the upo the same footing with our public edifices. It i maintenance of law and order ill te State of Ohio }true that there are countries in the world where maintenance of law and order in tha e State of Ohio' churches are instituted and supported by the State; for I do know, and that gentleman must also be aware, and in all such governments, there is a good reason that his Puritan fathers were guided by a far different why the churche s should be free from taxation, eprinciples. W~len they landed in New England the w hy the churches should be free from taxation, be principles. When they landed in /Nek England, the; cause they are the property of the State —becau-se they first institutioins which they founded were not jails setey awere instie property of the State-b and are supported by the and court houses, but temples for the worship of the re instituted by the State an are supported by the LivngGd,frtt te State. Living God, for they knew that if they established Mr DORSEY, (interposing.) I did not say that religion, they established also morality, law and or- t he churches stood upon the same ndation ith der. They began to cure the evils of society at the or public buildings- I said they exercised a sinwilt right end, andt the consequence has been an untoldngs; I said they exercised a silla amount of benefit to the people of this country.i Now, it seems to me, that this simple view of the Mr. REEMELIN. Upon the same argument c u amount of good accruing to the community from these might support the doctrine of the Union of church institutions, ought alone to be a sufficient argument and State. The same argument which would be nefor the exemption of all the churches in the State cessary to support the exemption of churches from from taxation, not only to the amount of two thou- taxation, would support the proposition; and upon sand dollars, but to whatever amount the churches this very argument the whole question turns. Prove minay see proper to invest in their houses of worship, to me that churches are public property, and I will so far as these investments are devoted exclusively to agree not to tax them public worship. But we were told here this morning Mr. SAWYER demanded the yeas and nays upon that these edifices should be taxed because they be- striking out, which were ordered, and being taken longed to a certain portion of community, and there resulted-yeas 62, nays 25, as follows: were others in the community who had no connection YEA,s-Messrs. Andrewe, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montwith them, or interest in the matter. But this allega- gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer tion is not true in any Christian country. There is I Brown ol Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings no man living in this community who can say that GCook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Forbes, Gillett, Graham. Gray Green of loss, Gregg, Hamilton, Hlawkins, Hitchcock o he is wholly unconnected with these establislhments Geauga, Holmes Holt, Horton, Humphleville, Huint Hunter of religion, and with that religio us influece which Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larch, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech is [spread abroad throughout this country. A man AManon, Mason, Morehead, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Perkins well ay tat h hasno conecton wth uigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of tiarinson, Scotto might just as glaize, Smlth of Highland, Stauton, Stilwell, Sticline~ the atmosphere he breathes, for this influence has per- Stidger Thompson ol Shelby, Warren, Wayv Wilson Worth. vaded all the interests of life, social as well as politic ngton and President —G. cal. And there is no man who lives in this comninu- Nss Messrs Blair, Cahill, Chaney Clark Parr Greene nity I care not what his connections may be, who is of Defiance, Henderson, Heotman, LeadPetter, Lidey, Lounity, I aentwa i oncin a e h sdon, Mitchell, Morris, Norris, Orton, C~atterson, Sawyer, not influenced by the Christian religion, and who does SellersT Smith of Wl anldot, Stebbins, Struble, Swift, Thompnot receive, directly or indirectly, a very large amount son or Stark, Townshend and Woodbury —25. of benefit flowing from these very institutions which you are now proposing to tax, whilst you allow large the amendmentw portonsof he ropety f tosewho re njoing The question thus being on the second amendment, portions of the property of those who are enjoylug to wit: tese benefits to go untaxed. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNEiDAY, FEBRUARY 26. social, political and sovereign rights of the people of this State. The short time allowed by your rules will prevent me from examining this questlon as elaborately as I could wish, and which will of necessity compel me to articulate with great rapidity and only to give each idea a passing notice. In my opinion, my valued friend from Brown, (Mr. LoULonO,) was laboring under an error when he con ceived the idea, that the word "otherwise" would bring upon the duplicate for taxation, money invested in State stocks or United States bonds. And I would inquire of him, if the wily holder of stocks or bonds would not most likely tell your assessor that they are exempt from taxation by the laws creating them. or by the decisions of the Supreme Court of the Uiiited States? And in barely noticing the remarks of the gentleman from IMonroe, [Mr.ARcnsoLD,] I would say that I cannot see the force of his argument, only, as it applies to the United States, in hereafter borrowing money; it may be compelled to pay a higher rate of interest, or rather its bonds may sell Mt i tlower in market. I think that may be somewhat doubtful, and I doubt if the bonds of the general government will soon, if ever, be again hawked about the streets for sale, as they were under the Tippecanoe administration. But if true, I would inquire of the wise ones here, if the greater the amount that appears upon the duplicate, does not lessen the per cent. levied, and wvill it not go so far in relieving the poorest class of tax payers? Most certainly it would. Now, sir, I will submit a proposition, a fair one, under the constitution and laws of the United States, and that all laws constitutional in themselves, passed by Congress and approved, become the Supreme law of the land, I am fre e to ad mit.-It is th is If Congress should p ass a law directing the issue and sale of bonds or stocks, and i n the same law should provide, that neither the bonds nor the money invested in them should ever be taxed by the UnitedStates, or by the States, which would of necessity, bring up the question direct between the power of the general government and the sovereignty of the States. And 1 now submit, whether such an act of Congress would not be a direct and positive interference with the sovereign and inherent right of a State to tax its own inhabitants, uniformly, according to the wealth of each, for the support of that government which protects them? I am not going to discuss this proposition at this time, but I know that I shall be answered. that the power to borrow money was constitutionally conferred upon the general government, and as a sequence, the general uovernlrient has the power to fix its own term.s Without admitting the correctness of the an swer, I will dismiss this question by propounding the following for consideration. Did the States or the people thereof, in conferring the power upon the federal government to borrow money, confer the Dower of exempting any particular-aiiy kind-or all kinds of propert'y beloniging to the individual inhabitants of a State, from taxation by that State, for State, county, or township purposes? I admit that this would be a fair and opena contest between the powers, and one upon which the court of last resort flight well deliberate before-it decided the question in a way by which the most wealthy mlan ill a State could place his wealth beyond the reach of the taxing powzer of the State in which he mtay happen to reside, to the injury of his poorer and lab~orinlg tax paying neighbors. although it might be onle, which, with some degree of propriety, might be acquiesced in. But I can conceive, that whenl the question is left opan by Congfress-no restriction uponl the taxing power of the State, that the right of the State to tax their own inhabitants who may have money invested in bonlds of In section two, after the word "State," oin sert t he words si of the Un ited S tat es." Which was agreed t o by un animous consent. ir. SAWYERt moved to further amend the Report, in section two, Bay inserting after the w ord "c ompan ie s," the words "es tate and United States S tocks." Mr. OTIS. I would like to askthe gentleman from Auglaize whether the Supreme Court of the United States has not dec ided th a t the bonds of the United States are not taxable? Mr. SAWYER. That is the old question again; and I saytene to thoe f tca n ore or the San A n s decisions of the Supreme Court upon this subject th an f or th e i dle wind which pas ses m e by. Mr. OTIS. If the money onlyv which is vested in these stocks i s t o be taxed, I would like to knowa how such st ocks as may have been bought for fifty cents on the dollar, are t o be assessed? Mr. SAWYER. According to whatev er they ma y be worth at the t ime. M r. OTIS. But the propo sit ion is to tax money so invested. Now, at onie time, Ohio bon ds wer e only worth fifty-five cents on the d ollar: but en o they are worth fifteen cents premium. Your section ought certa inly to be framed that you would know what you are about. I s uppose you should prescribe that the stocks shall be taxed, and not the money invested in bthem, so that if thei r value shou d luctuate, you would still have a unifor m rate of taxation. Mr. ARCHBOLD move d to ame nd the amendment, by striking out the words "and United States." Mr. LOUDON, desired part icularly to call the attention of lawyers to the mfor mer pa rt of t his section, and to this question, whe ther the la nguage, as i t stood, without the amendmen t of the gentleman from Auslaize, would not authorize the taxation of moneys invested in Stat e l and United States stocks? In the clause, "and itoneys and credits or mevestmedts in joint stock companies or otherwise," the words -or otherwise," were intended to include those stocks, and were intended to include those stocks, and these words were used because of the difficulty which seemied to hang upon some men's minds, whenever you mention State Stocks or United States Stocks as objects of taxat,ion. He desired also, to know whether thlis tax would not lie against the current valuation of these stocks; and if they were only worth fifty cents on the dollar, would not that have to be taken by the Assessor, according to the terms of this section?'Ihe object of the Committee was simply to put all that the individual might be worth upon the tax duplicate. He confessed that he preferred the language used in the former report of the Comn-iiittee, and if professional gentlemen would tell him that the language now employed did not amount to the same thing, he would vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Auglaize. Mr. HAWKINS should vote against both these amendments. He did not desire to command the Legislature to do that which, up to this day, had been held by all the Courts in the country, to be legally impossible. He did not want to incorporate any legal absurdity into the organic law. Whatever power might be exercised with respect to taxing these bonds, was included in the terms of tile section without the amenldle, t, Mr. LEAD BETTER. Mr. President: The ule~stion under consideration is one of the most important that 'this Conlvention will be called upon to decide during its deliberations, and one which ought to be well considered before it receives the final rejection or the solemnl sanction of this deliberative assembly. It should be considered with direct reference to the individual, 737 738 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-W ]:DNEsDAY, FEBRUARY 26. discharged from all of his indebtedness, and her courts decided that this law was retroactive in its op eration; and in the case of Sturges against Crownin shield, which was taken to the Supreme Court of the United States, where it was decided. that the State had the power to pass such a law, but it could only operate upon (debts to be created after its passage, and not retroactively; that it was not only impairirng tile obligation of existing contracts, but destroying them altogether; and in this the Court was right. But sir, it will be recollected, that Congress passed a general -Bankrupt law, during the Tippecanoe ad ministration, which your boasted court of infallible Judges not only decided, that it was retroactive-that it not only impaired the obligation of contracts, but actually destroyed them, yet it was all Constitutional. Can gentlemen reconcile these two adverse decisions? Are the individual and political rights of the people, to be eternally subject to those vacillating decisions without an effort at redemption? The great end and aim of all governments should be equaity-the scales of justice should be held in exact eq ui oise-ranting n either privileges or favors to one, and witholding from another-observing strict equality in all its exactions for its support or defence, according to the wealth and means of each, and equality, in its prote ct i on and in the diffusionof its blessings. This question necessarily involves the extent of that power which is of necessity, not only an incident to, but inherent in all governments, and one of the highest attributes of sovereignty that belongs to this or any other government-the sovereign power of taxation. By the decisions of our courts, both State and ngtion al, I am free to admit, in sustaining the monopolist, and the men of money, they have shorn the State of her right to tax, equally, all property within their jurisdic tion, and to exempt money invested in the U. S. bonds altogether. And sir, we are now called upon, as the representa tives of the people of this great State, in convention assembled, to decide how far the General Assembly may go in bartering away this inherent right of taxation whether the General Assembly is invested with the power to barter this rightaway, in whole or in part, and whether if it has bartered this right away In whole or in part,the same can,or cannot be resumed again by an act of sovereign power of the State. The foregoing remark is more applicable to the taxiing of State stocks, and in corporations, than it is to the taxing of money invested il bonds of the United States, but it constitutes a part and parcel of the same subjects, and is predicated upon the same hypothesis, to which I have already al luded, and becomes a proper subject matter for discus sion here. I hope sir, that I may be here permitted to indulge in an expression of my surprise at the opinions that have been here expressed bv some gentlemen who have preceded me; and on the other hand, that if my historical reminiscences serve me, I am not surprised at the arguments of others, made use of to sustain their long cherished opinions. Nor is it my purpose to pass in judgment upon the opinions of those with whomn i am here associated, but their arguments are legitimate subjects of review. We have been gravely reminided, that eve should frequently recur to first principles, and if there is truth and force in the remark, why not recur to those great leading principles which gave this nation birth? Why not recur to those just elementary prinlciples upon which the broad foundations of the governmenit were laid. and uponl which it must ever remain, if you would give it strength or durability, If, by the action of your government, either State, national; or the U nit ed S tates, is not only rig ht and just, but clear and unquestiona ble, the opi nions -of the Supreme Court of the United States to the contrary notwith standing. This ques t ion of the r igh t and power of taxation is a kindred subject of the right of repeal, wh ic h h as occupied the attention of this Convention so long, both of wh ich hav e been most strenuously opposed by the advocate s of the monied power, to tlre-exclusion of righ t a nd eve hand ed jus tice; and who have pre dicated the ir m ost specious objections upon the opin io ns and decisions of the Supreme Court of the Uni ted States, as if the opinions of the judges thereof wer e po ssessed of th e sa me infalli bility that is claim ed for the Pop e of Rom e. But sir, I have bu t littl e faithl in th e infallibil ity of man, in any situation of life where his interest or his prejudices can be brought to be ar up on his opinions. Sir, is cst a ir tis court has been hel d up to our view as alo object of the highest vene ration, and when we approach its presence, we should ull the shoes from off our feet, as if standing upon oly ground. S ir, that court is not entitled to all that has been claimed for it —it is not infallible. They have decidedfirst one way and the n in another, in matters the most important and mo st vital, affecting the greatest of our political interests and rights of the citizens. They have decided that any species of pa p er that is designed to circulate as money, is a bir of credit u nder e sstt ton of the constitution al prohibition of the n damental law of the United Stoates. They have deci C le d tha t a bank of a State, issuing bills of credit, b ills circulating as money, is constitutional. They have decided that a State has the power to pass insog vent laws, extending to th e full d isc harge of individu al indeb ted ness, but not to act retroactively, but in rospect only. And they have decided tha t Congress ias not only the power to pass a law impairing the obligation of contracts, but to absolutely destroy them. Mr. STILWELL (interposing.) Will the g entle man please t o m ent ion cases? Mr. LEADBETTER. Most certainly, and my f r ie nd will fihnd that I presume to uanerstand myself. Inteae o Caig the case of Craig vs te State of Missouri, Chief Justice Marshall, in delivering th e opinion of the Court, holds th is s entim ent in relation to what con stitutes a bill of credit: "Any paper money intended to pass in the community, as a c irc ula t ing medium, is a bill of credit," and so the Cour t decided. Again sir-after Chief Just ic e Marsha ll ha d c losed his care er in death, Ju stice McLe an, in the case of Briscoe against the Bank of the Common Hwe atlh of Kentucky, which Bank was, by the terms of the law cre ating it, decl ared exclusively the property of the Commonwealth, in de liv e r ing f i the opinion of the Court, reverse s the opinioi held by Chief Justice Marshall, and rthe Cout decided, tht e bank and its issues were Constitutional; notwith s t anding the dissenting opinion of Justice Story, the associate of Marshall, and who informed his compeers of the direct analogy between the two cases, and went ill full, into the histor y oa of bis of credit, for the urpose of setting himself right, and vindica tin g the unsullied honor o f the founder of our federative system. I cannot follow the cases ally further; my friend from Hamilton, (Mr. GarOsBrCK,) has not only placed this question in its true light, but has exposed the sophistry of Justice :McLean, and made the case too plain to be misunderstood, by any mall of common sense, much less a lawyer. Again sir-t-he State of New York enacts a law for the relief of insolvent debtors; by which the insolvent debtor, upon a fair delivery of all of his effcts into the hands of the C:ommnissioner, shall be forever I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. both, violence to its principles atnd manifest inijustice to man shaltl be t'ie result, (and for which, a corrupting influence in its departments can alone account,) this great and splendid fabric, the work of our fathers and the admiration of tile world, will be endangered, and nothing can save "it froln tottering to its fall but a speedy return, extending justice and equality to all, as it was originally designed. And here, permits me to express my surprise, that there should, in all this land, an individual be found, much less within the body of this convention, around whom the broad iegis of American liberty has thrown her ample folds, within whose breast d wellsoiiesentimentof justice within whose heart one pulsation in favor of liberty ever beats, in this our day, and upon this floor, openly ani boldly contending for that most odious and detestable doctrine of all doctrines, the doctrine of vestedI rights, or exclusive privileges, by which one class of men have a legalized right to prey upon the hard eartied substance of others,andarray themselves i!) the panoply of pride and arrogance against the highest attribute of Heaven-Justice-justice to the individuality of man. And this sir, is to be I endured by a people, constituting the only nation uponi earth, where, by its own fundamental principles andu laws, the mind of man is irresistably led to the sublime idea, planting itseltl upon the broad platform of justice and equalit)y, that here a,ind here only has man the power of asserting his own native dignity-untrammelled and disecaumnbered from everything except those, volantary restrictionis which he has thrown around himself for the benefit of the whole. Would to God that in thtis there were no delusion. Whenever you either establish or permit a rule of taxation, by which the property of one man shall be taxed, and the property of another, in the whole or ine part, shall go untaxed, you have a rule which operates unjustly and falls most heavily upon the poorest part of your tax payers, the laboring community, and ii just proportion, as you exempt the bonds of this State and of the United States from taxation, you increase the burtlhens upon the industry of the community. Capital produces nothing —labor is the great producer-it furilishes the aliment upon which your bankers, your money shavers and lenders, your merchants, your lawyers, your doctors, and the whole fry of nlon-producers, not only accumulate vast fortunes, but depend for their existence in their vocations; and yet, sir, the history of your legislation, backed by the opinions of men clothed in judicial ermine, have been but little less than a continuous attack upon the labor and industry of the country. IUpon the questions of taxing money invested in State and Uiiited States Bonds-the right to repeal an act of incorporation, or the revocation of a franchise, as a right of the people, we have been re-ad homilies upon plighted faith, honesty, justice, and morality, and as a last resort have been referred to the decisions of our own courts and of the Supremie Court of the United States, as a fintal and inisurmountable objection to the efficiency of those provisions which the friends of justice anl to the individuals rights of man have labored to introduce into the provisions of' the instrument which we propose to submit to the cotiisideration of an honest and confiding people. They have been plead in bar, as legal, overwhelmiiig objehctions against our proceeding any furtherin our efforts, not only in relieving the labor of the State from unjust taxation but to guaranty unto the people their just rights. It is with the most profound regret that I am compelled to admit that this plea in bar has not. been filed in vain. I have not time to scan the motives which inducted: the filing of this plea, instead of going to a jury of the people upon the naked merits of the case. b Wshy is it that the attorneys f or th e defen ce are notI willing to go bef ore the pe ople, and there read Xg eotllbies which have been read to this Conventinon. Tie people are honest in their politics, and are capableo of discriminating between truth and error. Sir, w t, should like to hear those gen tlemen before the peoples defending those powers which have originated throughs andf by legislative enactment s, or by te legislatie on ofL our oaurts, powers which are untagonietical torbe rights os thei people, socially? politically, individually al,la col leetively. I refer to the money power with all its ramifican hetions and connectionsese power sure and felt ea its tyretsanny and i n its corrup tions. It is the advocates of this monev power who have been preaching justice and honesty, and have labored most sedulously to ma{'* us believe that it was not o,,ly honest, but just and right, to tax the man with his forty acres,,hiscow ard. his pig, to its fullest extent; aye, increase his burthensfor the purpose of removing the burthens from thp shoulders of his more fortunate neighbor, who ihd, means to invest in public stocks. Is this your moriality?-is this your justice'ris this your honesty, to tax the laborer for the purpose of swelling the income of bloated wealth and arroganc Sir, you must deal honestly and fairly with the people, if you desire their confidence and support il main, tailiiiig good order-you must do justice to the mamses' if you would have the masses do justice to the few. i1 amn gratified sir, that the plaiutiffs, the people in this case have much abler advocates than myself and who will never relax their energies. But as feeble as 1: am, they shall have my services, as long as God shall give me power and strength to enunciate. These gentlemen are afraid to go before the peoptk They know, that they cannot so sophisticate the sowit simp, le and honest hearted man in the state, as to make him believe, that it is right, just or honest to tax hlim for what little he may own and let the man who Is worth a hundred thousand dollars, and that all invet. ed in state bonds, go unta ed; or what is still wors., that the poor widow with a half dozen children to support, using every posstble exertion to cave her little piece of land and raise her children, should b4 taxed to the utmost, not merely for the support of the civil list of the state, but to help pay the six thlousand dollars, which her neighbor draws semi-annually from the treasury of the state, and pays no taxes. Is this the morality, is this the honesty, is this the justice, fear which these gentlemen have appealed to Heaven? If this is to be the niorality, the honesty and the justice, with which they are to approach the celestial gate, l, strongly suspect that old Saint Peter would say to them as he did to George the Third "That the key was rusty and the took was dull, -,fNot by any mealy Litat the piac, was full. 'But few came that way of late., [A laugh.]' Tk, all other of those kindred subjects, the right of repeal and the revocation of franthises, this plea in bar has been eminently successful, and may so prove irt this case; but I hope not. I want one question to be carried in favor of the people. Bitt for whom hadv gentlemen put in this plea? For the honest and industrious laborer of the state? No Sir —no. It is for the money power, and Fret I defer any gentleman to satisfy the,,lald, that the principle of uniform taxation is not just and right in itself. Uponl a former occasion, I remarked that the judges of our courts. as a general rule, were inclined towards powrer -the power ot the legislator and the creatures af their creation. This principle runs through their decision~s, wherever it comes in conflict with the tights of the people; and in connection therewith, we hlave leen charged as repudiationlets because we desire Xo 739 740 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26. Will that case reach your men who can lend your gov ernment money? Wili they betake themselves to the fentetd field in response to this mrilitary requisition? No sir-no-thev are able out of their abundance to procure substitutes-men good and true, who are ab e, willing and not afraid to meet the enemies of their country. These calls for men, at such times, although ostensibly made to all, yet, it is self evident that it is intended for the working class of our citizens-men of your,rural districts"-men accustomed to labor, eith er poor or in nmoderate circumstances, such as are not able to procure a substitute. Sir, it is your laboring class that must do your fighting, and when that is done thermust foot the bill. It is those men who volun teer their services-it is those men who are drafted in to the service-tithe losses and the iniiconveniiences of leaving home are not taken into cotIsideration —an aged fatiher and mother, dependent upon his exertions for support, plead in vain-the tears and sighs of a ten der wife and loving children are uliavailing-thie hand of goverlnment iii its extremity is upon himr, and to tlhe post of danger he must go-not with the blandish ments and pay acconmpaniyin g uniform and epaulettes lhis uniform a knap-sack, hisdefence a musket;,he bares his bosom to the shock of battle, nerved with the power with which freedom alone cal nerve a man, he press es or, and at the morment when victory is about to perch herself upon the standard of our c,ountry, lie falls to rise no mnore. The slout of victory has gone up-to every corner of this confederacy has the news been exultingly borne upon the liglhtiiing's wing and the na tion celebrates the event. 3But how little of its joys can this widowed one partake? She has now to la bor, to economise, and to use her utmost exertions to support herself and children and keep her homne of a few ac:es, for which she is t,xed( for State purposes. But sir, the picture is not finishied-and again, the general government by a system of direct taxation, la)s its merciless hands upon the property of this widow, and exacts a tax from her-for what? To car ry on the war? not exclusively; it is not enough that you have taken from her the partner of her bosom her protector and the father of her children, but you must enter the abodes of grief and drag from her the scanty pittance she needs to sltieli her from the piti less storms of winter, in order to pav the interest on the money wilich the nan of weatth has invested in United States bonds, and who pays nothing for the support of that government which [)otiots him, or for the support of the war waged in this defence! This sir, is no over wrought picture; it is true to the letter and must be admitted. And tiis sir. is the justice that loha been meted out to your honest laboring clas, and the kind of jus'ice that is proposed to be continued. This sir, is the system ol' morals taught in this Convention —this sir, is to 1)be the right and only right that freemen are to enjoy, if their friends here shall fail in their efforts-poor privilege indeed —a.d this sir, is justice, justice with a vengeance and the honesty of a brigand. Is this the banquet to which my friend'rom Monroe, whose heart appears to be right, ),as invited "the soiD of labor and of toil." 1 doubt mnuchl if they will thank him for the invitation. The widow whose house is made desolate by war will scarcely thank him. The laboring class ask for no such feast as this. Thley ask for nothing but an open field and a fair fight. Your more wealthy and highly favored will wear the epaulettes, but the rank and file must come from the field of labor, and you will tax their little all, in order to swell the amount you pour into the lap of bloated wealth and arrogance. And, sir, the geittlemani from Monroe, (Mr. ARCOOLD,) with much pomposity, pleads the opinion of chiefjustioc Marshall in support of su ch tax money invested in stocks of the state-over and over again has this imputation been runig in our ears: and because power has been conferred upon the geiierat government to borrow money, we cannot tax it, because i t w ould be taxing the credit of the United S tates, if we should tax the money inves ted by our Citjzens in United States bonds. Mr,ARCHBOLD, (in his seat, ) can't the gentleman see that this tax hwill compel the general govern men t to borrow money a t a muc h high er rate of in terest? Mr. LEADBETTER. I stated ill the commence m eant of m y argumeut, that thie force of the gegntle.taan's remarks, went to that point and to that point onl y, an d f dthat it was my opinion that it would" have but little or no effect upon the sale of bonds. I recollect the speeches- of,my friend from Monroe, (fur. ARChiBOLD,) upo n this, and its kind red subjects, heretof or e made, that by adopting the propositioin under consideralion, we were taxing the labor of the communiiy-..that we were raising up an antagonistical principle in direct opposition to the decisions of the Supreme Court of the U Lnited States. Why sir, that gentleman seems to think, that when honest labor shall approach the precincts of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of the United States, he must approach with reverence ~and awe-that the ground whereon he stands is holy ground. Sir, I am not to be impressed with any holy hlonor, dread or' fear of any tribunal, or department, either state or national, nor shall I express my ideas or feelings when they shall transcend their legitimate au thority, o. bring to their at0, their political prejudices and predilections, and' crush by high authority, the sacred rights of the people. "P aisi:lg up an antagonisticaJ. power!" Who is it that has, or proposes to raise up an antagoniistical power? Not the democracv sir. Not those who tlinik, feel aind act with mvself.' We are contending against power, that is the antagonist of iusti e, honestv, right and fair dealing. We are contendin)g for the principle. of our primitive fathers-the priu:iples estab! sh-d in t ei folmaticai of our g-vernment-the principles.by whicl right and iustice should be administered to every individnal over whom floats the flag of freedom., "Antagonistical pawer!" Sir, if coLntenidinig for the inherent and coltstitutioi)al right of the:naiiy, against the incorporated and wealthy few, is raising up all aijtagojiistlcal power, in this governnment, tlhe'n am. I guilty of the charge, if guilt can be attached to a contest for justice, liberty, and equality. Sir, Ian willing to assist in building up a power, now overtlhrown, as antagonist to the power which has ,ehanged the designs of the founders of this great republic of fretnen, and to enforce in it all lhazards,unttil your petty tyrants shall ackn6owledge the just rights and powers of the peop'e-tilaijife-tinig in practice what all adttt ill: theory —that all political power resides with, and must emanate from the people. I will give gentlenten the full benefit of their arguments and the cases put in time of war, when hostile navies are hovering upon our coasts, and invading armies approaching our frontier, we are triumphantly asked "if at such a time as this, we would tax the bonds of the United States?" And why not? Let us suppose that at such a time the general government should propose to borrow money to carry on the war Many of the citizens of our State are becoming wealthy and at such a time some democrat should be found who would invest in the bonds of thle United States. the s3um of one hu ndr d thousand dollars —a good invest. mleat in a good cause. Again and the red cloud of war loomnshigher ald still highler in the horizon —anld the general government calls not for money, but for enel to reeisist the'inv asion of our soil by a hostile army. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Wk:DNf-SDAY, FEBRUARY 26. . manifest injustice; priding himself as a disciple of the that have been made to drive us from our position.great apostle of liberty, Thomas Jefferson. Sir, if the We have been gravely told that you cannot repeal an gelntleman had read thatgreat mancarefully,hecould not ectofiincorl)oration,l or revoke a franchise-a mete have fuiled to observe, thlat Mr. Jefferson entertained graut from the General Assembly, because the Sumore fears for the liberties ofthepeople,by tle consti- preme Court have decided them to be contracts, and tutional organization of the Supreme Court of the U. you cannot impair the obliga ion of contracts. The States, than from all other of the department.- corn. General Assembly has granted away the rtght of taxabined, and his fears are daily becoming realized. That tion, and the Sutpre(ne Court has decided that the same great man solved the problem of selfgoverutimet as he cannot be resumnied. Tihe people, ox the States, have would have done a problemi in Euclid. He had his conferred upon the General Governmenit the power to fears when be saw the life tenure of its judges and the borrow money, and the Supreme Court has decided immense powers conferred upiion it-the power of pass- that to tax the mioney invested in liotids of the United ing upon, or of putting a construction upon every act States would be taxinig the credit of the nat;on, and of State and national legiflation that might be passed the money shall not be taxed. by the'representatives of the people. Sir, we have been most gravely told that if we Mr. ARCHBOLD. (In his seat.) I hleve not treen- should succeed in eugraftitig those provisiolns into this tioned the name of Marshall. constitution, we cannot succeed in ou, object —that 'Mr. jEADBE~ PER. Well do I recollect the, g,,n- the Supreme Court will never change their decisions, tleman'z argument upon this and its kindred subjects, atid the result will be that we must submit. and if he will but read the book, he will be apt to find it. What do they mean by the term submission? Sir, Mr. ARCHBOLD. I have not used his name. I understand them —they might as well have portray Mr. LEADBETTER. To make the matter short, ed before our eyes, tramping steeds, bristling bayoI repeat that lie did-use the names of Marshall, of Sto- nets, deploying squadrons, the rush of arms, and the ry, of Tlomnpsoni, of Sydney, aitd of others-and he roarof artillery, as to have arotiused otir sensibilities can make the most of it. Marshall was but the ap- by thle degrading term, submission. Who is there pointee of the alien and sedition administration; a po- among us but kniows that the decrees anid orders of litical friend of the President, and of course a high- the Supreme Court of the United States, cannot be toned federalist; which may account for the character enforced where there is positive resistance, only by the of some of his decisions. - military power of the United States. If right aeiI It appears ihat the advocates of the monied power justice cannot be done without it, let it come; and in this contest do not alone consist of attorneys; but then, judiciary may take intito coli. many of the lay members of this convention. as they sideration the just ald lherent rights of the people. have been termed, have come up to the help of the But, sir, the dread alari ofS r war s not all that wav lawyers-the help of the lawyers against the people called in requisition by these attorneys. Sir, we have and among them there is none moret, prominent than had our attention directed to the repulsive frowns -of my friend from Morgan. (M.r. HAWKiNs.) It seems Heaven-and then downwar d to the horrors of the that hlie, too, is utterly opposed to engraftiug this prop- damned,with the purpose to frighten us from our putresition, or any thing else into this constitution, that pose We,si,by votingfor tlis proposition, arc tany be lopped off or stricken out of this constitution guityof moral perjury. For tlisprpose, wedis - by the Supreme Court of the Uti ted States, or leave it regard the power of the General Goverinmenrt, and standing, like the blasted hemlock of the forest, or like have no fears of invoking the indignation of Ilcaveii. the sturdy oak that has been killed by the later frosts The man who is coniscious of lie rectitude of his inof spring, there to remain a dead letter, as a minotu. teltions, who knows that he is right, can know no ment of our folly.- fear; and that people, who, knowing their rights, Sir, if a due sense of justice and the rights of the are ot maiitin them are unoty f the ane people are to be disregarded, I desired not only to and place of freemen. If it is desirable, that the peosee this provision, but all others of a kindred subject, ple shotild mailtain the Governeit, they must be proecshoud mitin the fullernomen;,f their rigust Ai engrafted into this instrument, and let the question Ierotctein the full enjomett f their rights. And raised direct, between the arbitrary dictumn of judicial now, sir, if this proposition shall succed here, and supreacy ad the assertion of the herent rig shall be strickeni by the killing firosts of judicial deof a free people though the fundamertal law of tht irl cisions, let it be done. But permit me to tell the ge(tiown creation. - Atd I here repeat that if the people leen, that there is a eocracy in g u, vhoill own reaton.~Andi hee reeat hatif te peplecling to the trunk of the stuirdy oak, and! like the ivy, either desire to maintain their own supremacy, or re- cling to the trunk of the stury ok ad like tie ivy, cover that which has been wrongfully wrested from we will cling to its trunk and keep it green until it themn. they must meet this question somewhere, and rots downi by time, and when it falls, liberty itself there is no place better than to meet it hete, and unl- will be entombed in its qualifiedly assert it inl this constitution. I warn gentlemnen of the dang rnus tendency of their And if ttie Supreme Court shall refuse to review their argumelnts. placing the decisions of the supreme court decisions, and still persist in doing injustice to the of the Uiiited States, as the paramount law of the land, people —then let this provision stand like the blast,ed high over constitutions and laws, by the power of con hemlock of the forest, blasted by the mildew ofju(licial structiol, and in utter disregard of the rights of rati, injustice-or if the figure is nmore pleasing to the eye, constituting tlie great State of Ohio, wit j all its varied let it starnd like the sturdy oak, with its huge truk and diversified interests. a tiers colonial (lependency and wide distending limbs, killed by judicial frosts. upon the supreme court of the Uiiited States. Tihos Sir, this towering hemlock and the sturdy oak are fit- who are opposed to submitliug ti) this degradation will emblems of the majesty of the people; and no better vote with me upon this occusioii, and rather thbai to figures can be drawn by friend or antiy other man, to I see this provision lost, I wouldt prefer seeing the hosrepresent the blasting influence or the killing frosts ofl tile banners of the federal goveriJment bearing down judicial decisions, affecting the sovereign and iiher- upon us in the plenitude of their power; atii when ent rights of the people. Sir, for one, I desire to see. tie conflict shall coie-wiei we snail be brought to this question met, and boldly met-I desire to see youi that poilit in the contest, between the inherent aud inlegislation sustain this provision if we shall incorpo- defeasible rights of the people, and the decisions of the rate it into this instrument. I am aware of the efforts mere judicial tribunal, there can be no doubt but right 74-1 not.',i~t I thui~k 1 kijew what it means. L,,..Ail I ko-vwaitma.'The question then being o'i the amendmnent pro( Mr. LEA DIETTEI, (ill his seat.) I would have posed by Mr. SAWYER, to wit: insert after the word teod yo whlat it Was ii' icy twenty minutes had Dot "companies," in Sec. 2, tlhese words "State and Uniexpir[,d too) -:o;.'- u. r BR W. I may or I may not tell it. It's a ted States stocks." qMestion of i:e I',uap ose'or I m ay ot tellleit. It's- a Ir. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and nays, q.e.to. f pr A,, I uppose; or a pr leged ques- which were ordered, and resulted yeas 50, nays 42, as t ii,i-'iwh lch v{>l piea.e. (Laughter.) But it is a ques- fillows: tioii'b,&tit w]&"'i iF is well known that as often as it la e c:.id:.d il ]hi body, that aecsofn has!YEAs-essrs. Blair. Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey, Farr, Forbes, Ihaq (''~ f! i i-id t i i h, body, bthe decisi l hals Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesteck, itlederson, Holmes, gonie a' ins!, tlie po:lition taken by the gentlemen on Holt, Hootman. Hrmphieville, HuIt, Jones, Kling, irl ~tli( (stlr~~,de. ~i wootlr dd, Lawrence, L,arwill, Leech Leadbetter, Lidey. Loudon, r. B. ct d, to the close of his twenty mn- Manon, Mitchell, McCormiick, Norris, Oton, Patterson, Quig Mrb.,. ) lid..,,close. *, ley. o ie etiielin, Riddle Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, SelU'..'s t o i i'. a, ill l tice and imnoralityof the lers, Smi i of Wyandot, Stebbins Stcliney, S''dg r, Strulile, pr) n;[:!~':i:,ctId l)y t:hle gentleman fioin Holi-ies, Thomipso)n of Shelby, Thonpson.f -tarki, I'owr.slieind, WVay, ;M.r L:-,I ~ p..:':rn ) Amongt other things lie charg?ed W ilson. Wood)ury and President -5(. h~i~ne ii' l hc. D":'.crrary the purposie of taxin"g State NAYs —Messrs. Andrews. Archbtold, larbee, Barnet of Mont gomery, Barnett of Preble, Btes, entett, Blickens.lerfer, :at,{ct s, t;,!,e a d,,ii:,i, their part, to drive out of tie Brown ofAthens, Brown of Carroll, Chitnibers, Collings, S'.:ci'( ihei,ri'' b)on2d.s, whichi form the basis for the Cook Curry, Fwart, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross i.s!! of tIck b',l Is the indepei-tlent bau,iks, of the Ilamilton; Harta, Hawliiis, Hitchcockl of Geauga, HIorton, ' i'4 4l ti -rehy dererat,ini,, the of~o fHu)ter, Lansh, Mason, NMorehead, Merris, A(ct,loud, otis, 1'eck, Periins, See io f H'.iso i.Si,i of 1igh!and Stunii~'i c,ei!?l i( u,t d andi driviLig thle bonds and eal i al bery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, Warren, Williatms,,ad Worth-. fr,.: tl St, e. i'..ton-42. ii'. GITE;L' X of R, spoke twenty minutes i, e- So the amendment was adopted. )ply t,i, i";'.itl~:&na: frii, Hollmes, (Mr. LEABETTEL I The question then being oi0 ordering the seection to 1'.i I-,)(;-i,,' i o li(e;,.port. dbe engrt,sed 5' t.. A?.; -DtiL D 1.-xt )btained the floor, an(i e Mr. OTIS denanded the yeas and niays, which fei-d,d.ti l;. 1 sltli wl iclh ie had heretofio,e taikn, were ordered, and resulted yeas 52, nays 42, as folii.lyi} I: til''i'hle t.axa~lin of United States bonds y lows: th] SIa i v(' cl'Ii oellt, woulld Tecessarily depress tI' ir. As-Messrs Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chairey, t'ook. iii'a,'t v:'ie. lie dcnoniiced t his prin)ciTle as a- oi- )orsey, E wing, Farr,'orhes, (reen f lefiance, Gregg, d?c atc. Groesbeck Hawkins, Itlenderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootmall, Mr. ST'A O oo N ed the previous qutestion., imphireville, 1lunt, IHunter, sing, irl wt >oi Lawr.ence TJAe q-eXti.i to'slhi,,ll the naini questioi be ow Larwill Leech, Ibea,lbetter, Lidey, Loiloi, Miitclell, lw. T i tnn Corick, Norris, (ron, Patterson, Peritins iuiley, Rooeeniput." tlin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smit h of WVyandot, M{r. HITi''I.TOC, or.' Geauga, demanded the yeas ebbins, ticliney, Stier, truble, Swift,'I'honpsoll f SIhel'by, Thiompson ofSak onhniay, Wilson, anld i;aw; whiclh were ordered and resulted-yeas' 50, Tompson of Sta Towhed ay ilso, 'iiav~~ follows:~ ~ ~ Woodbury and l'resident-5o. iiayV ~,.:9 f)f lt'ws: et f'itomy tt NAys-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of MontgoDmery. Yl'a,' —Mi.sr., Aiid-evws. PIr et f Mntoery,,anett Barnett of Preble, itates. Bennett, Blickeiisderfer, tirowit of Pt':e;i~. I:att:s Bein-ett., Blair, Blicle s ale i ot, Bow f ot Athens, Brown of Carro)ll, Chaiber, Clrk, cltins All~ohs,'~r,:wi~, *f C'aroil. Ca:ill, Cuh;embero, & hancey, Cook, Curry, Ewait. (illett. Graham, G(ray, Green of Ross, Hail) l){;rstey.,w l. F.J. Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray. Greene iltoin, Harlai, [litchlcock of Geauga, Horton, Jones, Lars),, ci l;Ii:;c; [l;trn, [awhinis. Hoiloln, Hlum)liieville, Hun- Maroio, Mason, Moreliead, Mlorris, McCloud, Otis, Pecl, ter, I, arfSI. L-i'l: 5', I (don,Mo, M oris MeCloud, ()r Riddle. Roll, Scott of Harrison, 8mi,th of Highland, Stalitol,. Pt.'s,n, P"thi.s. Sacvycr, Scott of Harrison, Smith bery, Stanton.,tilwell. Swan, Warren, villiams and Worth of Xy:i dec:;t,ita;.h(iy,Stantoii, Stebbins. Stilwell, Sticklney, ington-42. Svi,t. ay,, Vtllson, Weo'dbuiy, Worihington and Presi. So the section was ordered to be engrossed. (]-\CS-.13r,Cnry Grel)I of Ross 5Mr HOOTMIAN moved to further amend the le N~,.s —X'essrs-. 13larbee, Colli;,,,s, Curry, Green of Ross, ( ~r r -esl'e' t if G~ean port in Sece. 3, by striking out the following: "d; Or~~~~~ij'-:,~r~s'ek:it on, Hedetilrson, Hitch~cock (if Geau ..,,.. Htme. I,,1;. [lI~;t iail, leunt, Joies King. Kirkwood ducting therefrom the amount of their circulation." Lawrenc., Larwillt, Leech, Leatlbetter, Maeon, MIitchell; On which motion, Mr. BATES demanded the yea s 01110 CONVENTION DEBATIES' WEDNESDAY, FEBRUAt'tY 26, ated-if the people und:-rstoi,l the quedtion in its true import, there would be a e:fcified maturit y who would declare theniselves 01)1:0 td t i tliel'a.ure opposed to taxiun banks in uny "floI IPanm'~r thIn as the were taxed by the Il,: woid be a violation of onae;.nd::,i.ti,d fat',!. However, he considered it. wa nf,,t~ o hip. while to make a very forlial ohjcttic-n l,c';s'' C) I l ered the question could i,or t,,. li h, as thi:: Sa.s not the competent triwbuneal. Baiot he decollad sacty that for himself, he was -w!ln, to s,cajy rul,,es passed in this Roeovention w hich 1reIi(k( to - p i tl.ou fa repudiationater of thatthe ied States.' He had a small inte res t in the bank locatd scn ai ami county, a nd he dwa clared prdoa iit sole-,tti', t1ft:el, it the banvention were to pass the preseu. t a,it- ith- ut tieh Ste i tthepmsel de wbehin le, si-e bl a-k if lA nisia — turn of Ohio were to iSapotes. le a iid tax i to tbatk in conformity wit h the provisions poitil, o-e 0 ofhe questio the be rs of s o at bato, he woaduoesisti such a tax, and he was prouidto saytl{hatbhe w(~/d feel strong where be should.make such a remanced planti ng himself behind the strong-burlwa rk {:f te Constitution of the United States. lIe -would appe-al' io that instrument; and he would not peW r mV',it at sitnogle iinoIovat ion to be made upon his F-ight s w h c gra:.ted by that instrum rent. Mr. WOODBURY, demanded the -.f e vosq-iieir tion; and there w as a second; The quest ion being: "sheall the tiolmei qu-.estiounpi be nou w put,?" Mr. WOODBURY demanded tl-e via!-:,and nay,-zg which were ordered ajid resiiltedl-yeas, 5,f, ina,ys[, as follows:' V~A.. —Messrs. Blair, Browvn of Ati!;ens,, C lk. il.haney Clarkc, Cooki, I)orsey, Ewing, Farr )r're, Gj,",eit, Gray Greene of l)efianice. Gr-egg. [!,,awii. otck,,[t't liieuli~neni, Humphreville, Hunt..I,ones, Kiing. v,,I I;.iltre,t Lawi- v Lie,London, Mvitchiell, Mori-is. N o r;'s ftin,-i~ldo, Peck, Quigley, Riddle, Roll, Sa.-wyer, Fco*.t of Agazo Seles,Sith of W,yandot, S.thn,Silny tu~e 8Swilt, Townshenri.gren,Wy. i:;,,..od.u,Wrh ine-ton and President-50l. NAY,,O-sless,rs. Anidrews, 1Barbee, ]garnet,~f 3'oritgonmer Barnett of Prehie. Ba t ies, Bnet, l,;:,ice.lis,!e,fer. ~rw of Carroll. Chamibers-",)Cilings. Cu,-;?', E wart,Gr~~m ro of Ross, H~amilntoni, tl,,idereson, [ Ci'cc~t.o Grangeg, F.,r. to-n, Hunter. Las, lawrelice,'Le-;dnt,etter.'aoI ~a~, McCloudi. Otis, Perkins,, Smriitlh of lt is,,Idand, Stqatery,a'ton, Stilwell. lgtidgei- Thiomrpsoni of'l:y hon'soof Stat k and Williamts —35, So the main question was ordere(-rd. The question then being on-, the ami,endmrent of Mr. BARBEE, Mr. OTIS demanded the vc,sandd naysv, whi:ch were ordered and resulted-ya 0 nas57asflows: YEg~s-Mes~srs. Andrews, Barbece, l~arnect,if ~otoey Barnetot of Preble, Ba,.tes. Beliineti., iccr:cl.r rw o Athlens, Brown elo Carroll, Cla!esCBt'sCur-ry, Ew,art, Graham., G-tceen of io,os, H~amiltn; ins.lHtchcock of Geeriga, Horto.n, l,arshi, Mlason,?;ris,,Nl~Cl-.:ud, COils, Peck, Smith of High~land, Staiibery, sta tor, iwell aid. WVorthlingtonl —,.I(.-I NAY,s —Messrs. Blair, Cabiill. Cha. ncy, Coo'.;. f'la,, k, Peorsoy, Ewing,, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Gri-eee of'-e-fianice,;-'reggGreesbeck, Hiender-soni, Holmres, lHo't,iiiota,i, Huipi-re, ao was,iend iresulted, yeas, nays 65, as foll ows: ~Ars —-Meosrs. Cabill, CGak, Greene of Defiance, Holt, Hootma n, Humpbretille, Hunit, King, Larwill, Leech, l,eadl thetier, Lidley, NMitchell, Quigley, Sellers, Thiompson of Shelby, Towe harlaendei, Ws on anld Presidoft —il. .N.oys-Messrs, Antirews, Barbee, Barnett of Preble. Bates, Blteir, i hiclaen,Moerrer. B oirw of Athets Brown of Carroll, ()hamis.bettrson, Cney, Clark, Colingse Curry, Dorsey, Ewing, far, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greeni of Hioss Gregg, rees-m becfk Wyat, ltawk ins,-ti entdecnsoey, Hitcwca d onc of Geauga, Holm~es, Horton, Huniter, Jones. Kirk wood, Lawrence, Lou dloi,,.Mann,)lMaso'),Morehlead,Mo]Tis, Met'loud, Norris,Orton, Otis. Pattersoni. Peck., I erkins, Rididle, Roll1, Sawyer, Scott -of Hartmeon, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highlanid, Smiith of W~yaiidot, Starthery,,";tebbitis, -Ititwell, Sticlkney, Stid ger, Struble, Swan,,wilt, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Way, Williams, Woodbury and Wortiiington —5. So the amnendmaent was rejected. Mr. DORPSEY m<, —ed to, -,.,Peor,(]p the Report by striking out all after the word "taxing," in the first line of section three and inserting in lieu thereof the following: "The notes an oed bills mcontiDent fwhich ashd undivided profits, wnth outa ny deduc tion, of all baniks tow in existence or hereafter to be created in this State in the sa r re hr wanher as the property of individuals is taxed." Mr. BARBEE demanded a division. The question then being, first, on striking out al l after ahe word'raxitg,' irn ~ction three. Mr. DOeSEY said he thia offered this a mendment which, as l e thought, provid ed a suitable Mo ode for taxing banks —a thing which he was e xceedingly arexious to see done bythis Convention. H e wa s lornn to perceive that this matter was regarded here as g a party question, for it was vot so regarded by tdin- people of -the State at large. The people of Ohiio. both wtigs am ddemocrats, coemanded that the banks s ho e u ld ,,y taxin baiely in the same m aniner as in dividuiuls.e., im-l, knew somsed Wothins feeling, even idn the whi g party. He represet t ed a district ioM which wepre as a whig macorit cy f some six uienBdredE votes. His opinions were a mella eown there, and he received mansy v otes on that account. Because of his I opnin u,~on this# subject, he knew perfectly, that be oad Mre eived m any wfiig votes. Ad he had got to fioed the first man, uottless lie was very deeply aB id intimately connected with banks, who was opposed to tie snstem of taniag banks in the se mamr in-reply a s i n o diviota, l s. The system was rig tit, a tha hiscst, and pro.e,i itself, anid he hop~ed it -would be agreed tipon ite rdlidl not know how the whiig. party hieregwould vootlel; but representing a w hig c onsthuency, as he did, hli e woud dilike to vote against, a measure of this kind, and retain and tns wer for that vote before the voters ,of Miami, Darke and Shelby, Mr. BARBEE moved to perfect th e words proposed t.o be stricken out by striking out the words "now ill Mr. B. said he could hardly content himself to sit down without making a single remnark in repl to his colleague, (Mr. D.ort by inserting after the words "school hotuses," in the fifthh line of the. secourd section the words " property used exclusively for edueational purposes and not' for private or individual profit." And after'the word a"otherwise," in the fourth!ine, to insert the words "except such ax byr this constitution is directing to he otherwise taxed." There is another part of the report which I desire to amana, and I will read the instructions which I propose. 1 propose-to add at the close of the third see. tion, the following: "Except ln cases where the Gert 754 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FxlDAY, FEBRUARY 28. Ta ylor, Tlio,,iipon of S'ietby. T;wnslihei'4, Warren, Witliaom-". W,oodhuvy, Worthtini_toii and P,es;'dent-59. NAYS-Mes,rs.Ar-hhol(l, B.air, CalJill. Ohaney, Dorsey,Farr, Forbes G,eeiie of Defiaice, G eyg, Hi,otmian, Joit", King Lrsh, Lar-vil!, Leech, Lidey, Mitchiell, Norris,Orton, i:{e. - Raniter, Saw,/er, Scott of Ati,'aize, Sellers, Stanton, ~biis, Stickieey, Thlomitpsnii of Stark, Way, a,id 1iso1-1. So the report was recommltted. The question then being on the itstrtctions proepo,sed by Mr HA,WKINS, Mr. IIHAWKINS, on leave, withdrew his instreuo tions. Mr. BENNETT moved that the committee on Finance and Taxation be instructed to report thefollownllg as an additional section: "SEc.-. No professional tax shall ever be levied in this State." On motion of Mr. KIRKWOOD, the instructiots were laid on the table. Mr. HOLMES moved that the committee be ilstructed to strike out all after the word "provided," in section two, and insert in lieu thereof the following: "The General Assembly may by law remit the taxes on the following property viz: —All property belonging to the State, public school houses, the libraries connected therewith, the lands uopn Which said school houses are erected, all burila grounds used expressly for purposes of interment, a11 publicproperty belonging to counties, cities, incorporated towns and townships, now owned, or which may hereafter be acquired by pturchase, gift, grant or devise, the household and kitchen furniture of every family in this State, not exceeding in value the saun of two hundred dollars." On motion of Mr. LARWILL, the instructionswem* laid on the table. Mr. BARBEE moved that the committee be in. structed to strike out all in section two before the word "provided," and insert in lieu thereof the ft(lowing: "Property being the true basis fe,r taxation, 13ie General Assembly shall provide bv law an equitable ruile of valuation and assessment of all probcrty, reaj and personal, (exempting only such as maybe exempt by the Constitution of the United States, and such a& may be necessary to preserve inviolate the pledged faith of this State, also such as,nay be exempt under this Constitution,) so that each resident of the State pay a tax on the amount so valued and assessed in proportion to the amount he she or they own, deducting bonafide liabilities.", The same gentleman moved that the instruetions be referred to the committee on Finance and Taxa tion. Mr. SAWYER mo ved that the instructions be laid on the table, which was agrered to. Mr. MASON submitted the followin mfg: "Resol, ed, That the co mmittee on Revision be instrtucted to inquire into the expediency of inserting in the report on the Executive Department the follow-* ing provision: There shall be established in the Secretary of State's office a bureau of statistics, under such regulations as may be provided by law." The question being on the adoption of the resole, tion, Mr. MASON. I will take up the time of the Convention for but a moment. I desire merely 1F stte, that gentlemen may understand what the -resolution is, anld the purpose it is intended to sulbserve; and fromn the favor with which the proposition has h3eretofore been received, I have strong hopes ~hat: it will be adopted. And I hope that it will be adopted now. especially as there is no other report-now b~efore this body, in which it can properly be inserted. I hate had the pleasure of conversing with a number of the members of this body, and found the propositionehd Morgan, ('Mr. ItAwKINs,) I shall feel constrained to vote ag,ainst the reconiolitnment. Whly what is it that hIe wants to strike out? The provision that the state shall never contract debts for public improvement. What does it mriean? It means just this-tthat the state shall never undertake any new enterprise. Everybody knows what it means. There is no dange rotf mistaking it. But the gentleman, (M,r. HAwKiNs,) has strayed away off to find ant example of an abuse that may occur under it, and has taken one totally foreign to the case ttis illustration put me in mind of the story of the girl who was found by her mistress ~itting away and crying bittorly. When inquired of what the matter was, she replied, with a fresh burst of sorrow, that she had been tiiihinkting what a terrible thing it would be if wheel she had grown up she should get niarrie(t and have a little baby, and after it got big enoiugh to run alon e, it should go out and fall i nto the bake oven and get burnt up. (Laughter.) Now, sir, ther e ar e othe r modes by which, in case of breaches in the canal th e rep airs may be ma de, wi tho ut r esorting to a loan. One is, that a suffiienot margin,nay be lefet fin the ontingent fnd for that or any simoilar p urp ose, a nd another is thati the superintendent may go on and incur the debt, and leave to the legislature to make a s ui tab le provision for its payment. I will go against every attempt to again introduce the old abandoned, exploded, stealing power, of making public works at the cost of tile mainy for the benefit of the few; and I ho(pe no such asendment wi!l be made. Mr. SAWYER. I f think that we have spent as tuchn tim e upon th is qu es tion as it deserves. I therefore move the previous question-wh ich was sec onded. The que eneg ta h insti on te being: Sall the main question be now put. Mr. HUMPTIREVILLE. I suppose the previous question cuts off the motion to recoBmmit? The PRESIDEN I'. The effect of the p rev ious ques t ion will bea a d to cut off.al amedmets,and to bring the convention to a vo te upon the article. The questio n teein, ha the min es being, shall the main questobe now put: Mir. ARCHBOLD demranded t he yeas and nays,which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 34, nays 55; as follows: Ygas-Messrs. Archbold, B air,Calhill, Chanev, Ccok, D13Casey F)r, es, G i'ett, Greene otfia,;c', Gi'eEg, Hoot,n,at, Jones,' Kiqg, Liash, Larwill, Lb'de, I.oto, M.ite'hell, Noirrs, Otto,., Patterson, QSieitley, ts d,vet,' Scolt of Augai ze. Seleti is, St arntol, toteibi-s, Sva,n, Swift, Thioepso n of Stark, Way,Wisos. Woodbury and Ptesidenit —k4. NAYS —M.lsrs. A,,,!rews, Bar?:ee, Bernet of Mortgoinery, Barnett of Pretde, Bates, Branitett, B icketnsderter, Browli ot Athenrs, B~'own of Carroll Ctmmhers, Collings.Ewart, Florroie. G ahiai,., G av, G:'eeln ouf Ros-s. PI:tzilto,,, HIa, aan, Hawki,s, Henxdersoln, Hitc,l-,'o)ck of Geauga, Homiyes, I-,Ilt, Htol, Huimnpl -eviJle, Hunt, Hinter, Kirkw od, Law-r~ce, Lie,,h, L1eadbntter, M koi, o, Mo,,retiead. Morris,M(Otoud 1 haOrnd, k Naslh, Otis, P,-(-k, Per-kins;-, R tniey), R,eeielini, Riddle, Snit of Higjh,I,ani,Stanille'y, St.ilwil S$:ickiey, Struble.'Tavylor.,Thlmnp. oll of' Shelby, Tuwlnshted, Warreni, W\illiasi)s and WorLmilig1011-55. So the demand for the previou,s question was not sustained. The question then being on recoiiimittifig the report, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 59, nays o30, as f ollows: YEAs-Mogsrs. And:-ews, Barbee, Ba,'net of Monitt,omery, B1riteit of Pceble. Bates, B-.titett, ltlicrkeniderfet, iiowtIn of Athens. B'owii of Carroti, Cham,Iers, Colins, ICook Crry, t Eva-t, Florence, G:l'iett.G:av, G efit of Rocs, Hittiitot. Harlao, tlawkiots, Helder-son,!itcli'ork of G:Hat u'a,H Holes, lt, Horton, Htitophrevilte, Hu,,it Huitter, Kirkwood, Lawretice, Lealbetter, Manot), Mason,Mori, McC!otid,McCornick Nasbl, Otis.,Patite,'so, Pecrk,Prkins, Reeie in:Rid e,SIOt of Harrison, Smitha of H gliand, S3nberyY StildWe}l, Strube-, SOyiS, Swift, 49 76 i OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIf)AY, FBRUARYV 28. the approbation of a large majority of those with latndl, Stebtbils, Sti!wt,l..wif Thomp)ison of Shelly, Towing whom I conversed, and I think it would of all, if all head, Wil!iarns alg Worithin,rton -)1. hld had an equal opportunity of considering the YNAY,-Mes4rs. A,,hhbold, B'air, Cabill Chauiev, Dorsey,Ftrr. Fo_.)res. Hawkii,, Hen(lersoi, iltis Ho iji.s,Ilhevlle, Hunt sn-abject. I wouild say something upon its importance, Joties, La-wil, Leech, Lead!,etter, Litley, Mii;ce'. Morris, Pat l.rit am afraid of consuming time, and I think its na- tersot,, Qiiigley. Ridd'e, Scotli of At!, taize, Se lers, Stanitry, taure is understood. It would add little or nothin-g Stik,-ev. Sitrt,Ile. Thompson of Stark,Warrenl, Way,Woodhur to. the cost, of government. At most, it would be aind P.-esident-' 2. iivrely the salary of a clerk, and perhaps not even So the resolution was adopted. that. The mode of collecting the information would Mr. MANON moved that tli Convention resolve itle through the assessors, and by a correspordence self into a committee of tlie whole, which was agreed Ii~th citizens of different parts of the State. to, —Mr. KIRKWOOD in the chair. At present we have no meams under the control of The subject under consideration being Report No.2 the State, by which the people in one section can be- of the Committee oni the Apportion,nent, the quesation cr)me acquainted with the wealth and resources of was upon the millotion made yesterday by Mr. GRzEN r of atiother. And in regard to the health of the State, Ross, to iamend the third section of the report. the rpievailing local or general diseases and their Mf. COLLINGS moved to amend the words projnedies, much valuable information nmight be col- posed to be stricken out, by striking out all after the lected and disseminated. word'"thlree," in the eighth line, and inserting in lien Mr. SAWYER. I would suggest to the gentleman thlereof, the following: —.'to the second, first anid fifth fnClark, [Mr. MASON,] that tle resolu'ion is imper- sessions respectively; atind if four, to the fourth, third givenpon the clr mmittee to make the a2 n mp second and first sessions respectively." t.i.,ive upo en.The comiteestio beiake othte amienidment The 1 should prefer that it should be only a resolutior. questioN being ola the anienidment: miaking it the duty of the committee to inquire into Mr COLNGS. I hope that the amendmn t ttime expe~diency of the amendment. t~ expediency of the amendment. which I have pioptosed, will teeta the approbation of Mr. MASOlI~. In compliance with the suggestion..n Mr. MIASO~t. In compliance with the suggestion the committee that made the report. I do not concur e,f the gentleman from Auglaize, [Mr. SAWYRa,] I will in the opinion of the getitleii)aii from Ross, iii his re. (to so. marks made last eveninlg, that this is an attempt at the revival of the old, exploded and odious plan of floats. Mr. GILLETT. We have now a State Board of Hi objection to the plan d a s th a i lo of flats. .griculture organized, or professing to be organized, fiats ad been created for a particular phireios'. Th s ini Ohio; but it has no head. Its object is to collect is not a plan to create floats. but to provide for the dis. t,trincultural intelligence, and to send it through the n t c et ase I o vid for, S.ate; but it fails, in a great measure, to effect the positiol of them when they arise. in contriving for slsign of its creation-at least to the extent that it their disposition, it is necessary first to take an arbitra uht to. irculars are issued by theBoard, and ry step, and liavilig taken it, to proceed systematically ~aht to on c and another troghout the State, requir ad continuotslv. This the coBriittee conmetnced to 4entgnse to one and another throgatorieus. The Sate per- do, and 1 have i)o objection to the proceedinug except ilig answers to certain interrogatories.'I I that they have not gone oil as they should have done, slls are frequently chosen by the Board, without an onyTe t knioweledge on the part of that body as to their systematically and co'tinuously They commenced to -kn'owledge capacity, pur6suits, expeorietce or ability $ dispose of the fractions at tlie fifth year. I do not ob - -roverthe questions that are -. h' ject to that. It was probably on some accounts better the quet o n the e to the to commen)ce at the fifth year thao at the first. These T'hey frequently know iothing of the extent of the; agricultural interests of the county in which they i counties that have but one fraction in the period of five ..tgclua interests of the county in which they, yars, have that in the fifth year. To those that ha.ve live, and the reports that they make are a mere guess ear have tha t in the fifth year. To t that hav work affair. In consequence of the want of aln officer two are assigned the fourt and third ear This far the committee proceeded continuously. but no further. whose duty it is to attend to it, th e proceedings of They have placed counties avig he fitios i th the Board are often very dilatory, anid the reports of ey veplaced counties avi,n g thiee fatios in the the year are delaved uintil they are of little value. 1!cond first years and those hvi four i the aobserved, last July, when the Couveition was in ses ifourth, second, third and first; whereas had the rule siun in Columbus, cords of the report of last year been followed out, counties having three fractions ly ing p iled up in the hall of the rHouse of Represeni would have had them in the second, first ann fifilth tives,-which will probably never be distributed I years. Those having four would have had them in the think, therefore, that power should be giveni to thei fourth, third, second and first, and those having five, General Assembly~to establish a bureau to superin- would have had them in the fifth, fourth, third, second tenld these matters, and to see that the annual report and first. If this rule had been carried out, (and I see i mnade in time, and by persons competett to dige- no reason why it should not have been adhered to,) the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~tirmd, fourthme and fift yearswould havpetben' equal.. ~iharge the duty, and to see that it is transmitted i third, fourth and fifth years would have been equal that it may reach the people in time to render some each having sixteen members; as it now is the third beIxnefit to the State; and that unless some more effi- has uineteep, the fourth sixteen, and tne fifth fourteen. (cient means are adopted than those now in operation I hope, as I said before, that as such a change would we had better dispense with the Board, and disnpense bring the report more nearly to all equality than it is :u once with the enormous expense that attends its now, it will meet the approbation of the ciommittee that operation. framed it. The question then being on the adoption of the Mr. GREEN of Ross desired to modify the motion resolution of instruction, he made yesterday, in offering his amendinent, so that ,Mr. LIDEY dmanded the yeas and nays, which instead of striking out a portion of the section, it were ordered, and resulted yeas 51, nays 32, as fol- should come in at the end of the same; which was per.lows: mi.tted. Wfeofon'g.nery Bar Ther e being then no words to be stricken out, the tet of Preble. Btes. Bennett, B irketisderfer, Brown of Athet. motion of Mr. Collings was decided not ill order; and .B owii of Carfoil, Chambers, Clark, Cold gs, Cook, Curry, the question wits upon the amendment of Mr. Green. E tart, Floren,'e, Gikiett. Graham, Gray. G eerie of Derlatee, Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. I am very glad that G.eaen of Ross. Hamliton, Harlain, Hitchrock of Getu_a Hoero itn, Hunter, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence. London, Malmn, Ma- the getitlema from Ross has chauged his amendment pon,MrC'oud, MrCorinick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Otis, Perkinn,', so as to leave the third section as it was reported by the Raniey, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, $m.tl.of High committee, and so as to leave the naked question i56 .1. OHIO CONVENT'ION DEBATI'-FrIDAY, F'RBUARY 28., whether we are to have nine single districts ill Hamil- principle, because it gives to all an equal vote, and an' ton counity, or whether we are to have double districts equal share in the government of the State. Is this as heretofore. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that al- not right? It seems to me so. Divide the State into together too much ilmportance is attached to the politi single districts and each man votes for hs own officers cal character of the districts so far as reptesentation in -his own Senator, and his own Representative. Dethe General Assettibly is concerned. part from it, and you destroy the principle of equality. Heretofore, I admit, that it has been of very great Is that right? importance; but now all the patronage is taken from Let us look at this matter, Mr. Chairman, a little hie General Assemblly except that of electing an United closer Under the plan as reported by the committee, States Senator, and its only duty is to enact laws for every elector in the county of Hamilton has eight votes the government of the State, under which whatever for Senators and three for representatives, while tha party may predominate, all must live, and which are voters in the other parts of the State are confined to as hiuding and as heavy upon the legislator as upon the one of each. A man who happens to be located in Hartconstituent. Wlhen therefore all,the patronage is ta- itton counity has eight times as much influence as if he ken away, the subject of political supremacy will not, lived in the county that I represent, or in the other and cannot excite the same feelingsas when all the pat- counties of the State. I do not tit)k this is right. If ronage and all the appointments of the State are in the it is democratic equality, it is not republican equality; hands of the Legislature, to be distributed out among and I do not thinik it is democratic. the friends of the majority. There is no doubt, it is Now, Mr. Chairmran, the idea of single districts is by true, that political parties will exist, and that they will no means original vx ith us, or in the State of Ohio. It desire to gain atid hold power; but that desire will not has been promulgated years and years, nlot only here as heretofore be the grounid of strife and contenition. but in all parts of the Union. Originally metmbers of Neither is there any gtound for the supposition that Congress were elected by the people of the whole State, political parties will conltinue for any great length of by general ticket, but one State after another became tinie ini the satle position, either positive or relative, dissatisfied anid changed the mode of election. TI:e that they hold at present. Mutations are continually consequence of ttls was that those States that elected going on. New questions are coming up, anid 1no par- their representatives by general ticket had an undue ty has thie assurance that it will be what it was, in share of power in the Jnionl, iuntil at lengthl, Congress numinbers or in position, at any day in the future. It took the matter in hand and nlade the single district is futile thetn to attempt to make any provision for such system uniform throughout the States. contingencies. We have lived under the present con- Some of tile Stat, s kicked atit a little, but they were stitution for fifty years, nod although there was little at lengtl brought in, and now Congress is entirely party spirit for the first twenty-five years, there has composed of nmembners elected in single districts. Soill been a good deal of party spirit and a good many changes New York; the State, by the constitution, is divided in the last; and teni years to come still greater changes into single districts, bv means of a system muchlilke iiay take place. that presented by the amendment of the gentleman from As to the plan of apportionment reported by the Ross, and even the city has been divided, aliil elect, committee, I must say that I am afraid that they seem now its senators and representatives, under- the single to have acted a very lIttle under the influence of a de- district system. And what is the result?'Tie city of ire to aid their ow ti political party. That there was New York, which by its large tnumber of delegate, any design entertained by the inemb,ers either to break before goverined the Slate, has ceased to do Fo. The down one plarty or to build up another, I am not pre- operation of this republican priniciple has destroyed its pared to saty, but it woul be very natural for them to supremacy. Yet gentlemen say that Hamilton county rejoice after mfaking a district, to discover that it be- must not be divided. Hamilton Co. must give asoli4 longed to their ownL party. I do not say that there vote altogether while the other parts of the State must was anydesign ill it; but I think if itsihotild so happen, be divided. Now. Mr. Chairman. is this right? If it they would-easily make up their nitids itot to regret it. is permitted, one thing is certain-Hatiilton county And I am disposed to believe furthermore, that enough will goveri the State, so long as this colistitution enmight have been done to secure their political prepon — dures. It always,hias done it, and it always will. [t derance in the State, without sinking quite so many may be that it will govern wisely, but thie probabiity votes in some of the counties, -in the heavy majorities is, that will govern a little too much for its own interof the other counties with which they have been group est el. Now what is the difficulty in the single district svs. But, Mr. Chairman, there is in this report a prinici- tein? The gentleman from Trumbull, (Mr. RAiNsr,) pie to which I feel a very strong objection. It strikes seems to think that there is some chlarnt int county lines. at the root of the principle of the division of counties Old Hadmilton, gentlemen say-old Hfaniilton, nmust be in such a manner that there shall be no other than sit- preserved as it is. Gentlemen may rely upon it, if gle districts in the State. Now sir, if there is any one this is to be the case, that the policy of the State will thing upon which the people have felt and expressed all be controlled by a single county, and that merely beopinionL, it is upon the subject of the division of the cause it is surrounded by a county line. I kniow that State into single districts for representation in the Gei- the bill provides for the division of the city from the eral Assembly. And that opinion seemed to he almost rest of the county, but I know also, that there will be universally concurred in, by the members ofths bo dy an attempt to break down this provision; and as for There was scarcely any division of sentiment it Colum- further divisions, they are not to be thought of. Geibus last suititner, and with only one or two exceptions tlemen can agree upon 1o0 tribunal by which they all were in favor of the single district system. This is may be made. They can trust none. The danger of what the people want-it is what they have asked for, corruption, is too great, to permit such a power to be if they have asked for anything; and in this they ought vested anywhere. One would tihilnk froisi their reto be gratified, because it is right, because it can be marks, that there is nothing but corruption among done without injury or injustice to any, and be at the public officers; and I sometimesthink, we talk so much same time a benefit to the State. corrulption, that the outsiders who hear these debates, The principle seems to me, Mr. Chairman, to be a will begin to think that there is some corruntion hers republican one-I will not say democratic-I am not amongst us. The principle, I say, is a good one, and allowed to say that; but it seems to be a -republican if the officers whose duty it is to carry- it'out; violate i-57'. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Ft [r'Y, FEBRUAirY 28. their oaths,the worst is their own; bnt we have no Henry on the south-the first of these districts conright to depart from our duty, and violate our oathls, t ins.inhabitants, and by adding Fultonl therebecause other men nmay be corrupt. to it would have a number far greater than the Now, the reason why gentlemen oppose the division ratio and entitling it to fractional representative w, irh of Hamilton counly, is plain. They would lose a part would be entirely different from any other district, of their political inifluence. It is not from their love of formed of more than,.ne county, besides this the the right, but from their love of power, that they op- anmount of territory included in the district would be pose it. enormously large, as compared with that of Fulton and . Mr. DORSEY. I have a few words now that I de- L,:cas. Again if united to Puttan) and lHenry, the sire to say uponr this subject, and but a few. It is pro- nurrmber would, it is true, fall below the ratib, but the per for mfe to state a large number of the members of objection of a very great disparity of territory and also the committee on the anportionment, were strongly in of interest would still remahin-in as much force as in favor of the single district system, and ihe subject was the former case. Now let it be reiiienbl)ered that almost commended to the favorable notice of the committee, the whole territory of the county of Fultoi came oriby the opinions of the members-ot the convention. ginally from Lucas, they were originally one people, But I have been induced to believe, that while the united in interest, and are still united by the ties. of plan that we have reported, approximates in a very trade and commerce, having their roads and travelling considerable- degree to such a system, it obviates the ob- facilities in conmmon, and in regard to the territory it jections that would arise, were the principle of single will be seen by looking at the map that Lucas lias, indistricts fully carried oaut. del-endent of her constructive territory lying under Perihaps the greatest abuse in the old system, by the watersof Lake Erie, little over two hutndred square which the State lhas been districted, is this, that it of- miles, and with the county of Fulton has far less terten happened that two counties were united, with the ritory in the representative district than ean be made power to erect two representatives. Then a contest by attaching Fulton in any otlierdirectiot wlatever. arose, as to whether )both should come from one coun- Now I askit every gentleman present if these plain reaty, or whether each should have one. This difficulty solis are not sufficient to satisfy the mind of any reais obviated by the report. If gentlemen will look at it, sonable man, any one whose mind was not tiaoroughly they will find that no two counties have been united to imbued with all the prejudices which )nattrally beltng elect two representatives. Ifthere aredouble districts, to a trading politficin, that other than political reasons they are cormposed of one county alone, so that there weighed in the mind.s o(f the committee in alttatchitng can be no strife between different municipal interests. together in one district, the counties of Fulton atid Gentlemen may seiy what they please, about the fa- Lucas, more especially where we consi(der that attachcility with which counties and cities may be divided, ilg Fulton to either of the two fitst districts could have but I say, that when they attempt it, they will find that made no possible change ien their political character and it is a difficult matter. Iii order that it may be doine, it is exceedingly doubtful if any political echange is there must be a power somewhere, and wl)atever that effected bv attaching it to Lucas. power may ibe. it will be subject to political influences; Mr. HITCIHCOCK. I did not intend in my remarks and our intention has been, as far as possible, to get rid to make any reflection upon the integrity of the comof such itifluences. As far as thecommitteecould do it, riittee. I give the gentlemen credit for their industry they hav divided. Where corporate towns could be and calculation. I nierely en)ressed mry opinioen that cut off, it his been done, and though several members they would feel gratififod if after having grouped toof the.conmmittee lere iot in favor of it, I thinik it is gether several counties into a district, they sihould fi'nd right to cut t11 m off Upon that state of the case. the that it was theirs. In the lower house, I look upon objections of the genrlemian ifrom Geauga, will fall to the it as extremely doubtful which party would have the ground c —and I think lie has an incorrect view of the majority. That side undoubtedly will say it is with politic'id pc;a-r of Ciicitinati, or of Hamilton counity, the whigs, this side that it is with the democrats. I because thev hlap)pen to leave a large number of repre- think that with the Senate the diff,rence is greater. It senatltives. Nor is it a fair statemnent, to say that every is in favor of the democrats, tliontch not so greatly as citizen (A Ci:cifl, a+, l,:s sx —ollt eight —votes, to sonme gentlemen on this.side slippiose. one of the citizese is f oler parts of the State. Tlie As to the subject of single districts, it is clear that if citizen of icirati, votes f,,r six representatives, it the city and county here are divided, the vote in Cimis true, but he is represented but by one. cinnati is six to one, and if they remailii together, it is And now a word as to the political.ffect of the re- eight to one. The gentleman fromn Miami, f Mr. Doipiort. I believe the grouping of counties, is as fair and sEy,) I know,, savs that though a maii votes for six, ihe as corret, as it coulid be made. Let gentlemen exam- has but one representative. Now I ask, which of the amine the political conip!,xtion of the counties, and six is his repres,ntative? then sav it theres is,iy reascn to ch-arge the(commtittee Mr. DORSEY. He has one sixth of the wholewith any dishonest bias whatever, in favor of their own that is all. party. Mr. HIlTCHCOCK. Hle has six votes for six repre And in this conl:ection, let me call the attention of seatatives in the House, and two votes for two, ii the gentlemen for a momnent, to the counter-report of the Senate, and those eight votes will control the policy of nmilnlority of the cci mittee. And I ask the members the State, as was the case in New Yorik. It is the pritof the minority, if they did not feel pleased, whet) out ciple that I go for, for 1 do not believe that the whigs of thirty-four senators, they found they were able to would gain in numbers by the division of EHanitlton give tw,.nty to the whigs? county into single districts. If it should be done, But I will answer directly the question put to me by other counties would have to be divided, and the gain the gentlemnan froit Logan, (Mr. STANTON,) with regard in one would be compensated by the loss iil the others. to the reason v.:lby the county of Fultin was annexed Mr. OTIS. I shall, Mr Chairman, support, in) its to the county of Lucas, for representative purposes and present, shape, the amendotent offered by the gentleman while I do so I desire that gentlemen will look at their from Ross, (Mr. GarzN,) as I remarked yesterday that naps that tc,! ma-. more fully appreciate my remarks. I would do so far as it asserted the single district prisi It will be preceivci: that Fultotn touches twe other dis- ciple. I intended to say that, the report of the cointricts b-sides Luc,s, the district of Pauldirg, De fiance mittee, so far as its general plats was concerned was not atnd.Williams on the west, and that of Putnam and only consistent awth a system cf representation iiae 758 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES — FRIDAY, FL BRUARY 28. that foundation, but that there was no difficulty in the merchants of the city should have a separate and making the application. The great Stateof New York exclusive Representative, he was opposed to hinm-if is divided into single districts, and the city is under the he meant that the mechanics or any other class of the operation of thw same rule, being subdivided by the population should have a separate representation he board of supervisors; and if the city of New York must say that he was opposed to him in toto. He, cani be divided, there can be no difficulty in dividing [Mr. HOLMLEs,) believed t,hat in all well regulated soany city in Ohio. And what objection can there be to cieties, in all cities, counities and townships, there the practice? Genitlemeii seem afraid that if they ad- must, to a certain extent, be a communlity of interests. mit the plractice (for they do not deny that the priici- Their interests must be mutual. I:e was decidedly pie is a correct one,) the seeptre of political power will opposed to the principle of an unmixed representative depart out of their hands. inlterest. That the result of the provisions of this Constitu- So far as a political tendency or object in tlhe Report tioni will be to reduce thie importance of the General under consideration was concerned, he could assure Assembly, iii a party point of view, there can be no gentlmene that the thing was not thought of. Politidoubt; and if the single system is adopted, much that cal considerations, [said Mr. HOLM:S,] did not enter hlas embittered party strife and fanur.ed contention will my head. I was desirous only to perfect a scheme of be done away. I hope that we shall never have iin apportionment, based upon fair and equitable princi~hat body th.at tendency to strong political feeling and pies, always keeping i:cw' iUl1' id_: LcredUess high party mreasures that there has been hitherto. Ex- of cotiuty lines. copt the eiection of an United States Senator-its pat- Mr REEMELIN said: It has become obvious tb conage wil all be taken away, an,] its priicipal andial- every observer, that I, for once in mry life, have got liost sole duty will be the passage of laws of general into stratinge company, and on listening to theremarks pplicationl. Why theni are gentlemnen so tenacious of of the gentleman from Ross, [Mr. GItEEN,] and from p)arty powe r as to seek to embalm it in the Constitu- Logan, [Mr. STAN,TO.,] I was ready to exclaim, "Lord tion; and to be willing to establish a false principle, or what have I done, that thy enemies should praise me" at least to refuse to establish a true one in order to se- -and if I were the mere paty lack, which men, who cure their ends? dont know me, may have supposed me to be, I might Tile great advaitage of the single district system be in a sad predicatnent-but ts it is, having carefully will be hat it t will give to every man inl the State an survevyd the whole ground, having weighed all sides, equal influence in thie public conticils, and that it will having scanned every supposable contingency andl secure an accurate representation of the real State of every bearing the question has, I have no fears of the popular sentiment, by taking the representiative from result. I have coolly and calmnly deternined to sus ihe imnmedia'.e body of his constituents. tain, by vote and voice, the single district system, as Mr. NASI. The question is whether representa- both honest and fair. tion shall be by single districts, or whether there shall I submitted a few remarks, yesterday, on this subbe sortie double districts. A majority of the people, ject, and a part of these remarks have been seized as I believe, are in favor of the single district system. upon by the gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RANxsEY,J Party calculationis have no legitimrrate connection with to perpetrate a very pretty play of words upon "Motlhe subject. Why not elect members of the General As- hawk," a word I happened to neition yesterday. sembly by general ticket? Because the opinions of Permit me to inform my friend, that that district nearly one-half the people of the State would be settled as it is by democrats, gives us in this county stifled-the despotism of thle majority would prevail occasionally an agreeable surprise in sending across in our State government. The true principle is to the canal to our head quarters, the very comnifortable give to all parts of the State respectively, as full a majority of 800, and if my friend is hereafter a candi-~~presentatioii as practicable, and the single district date for Governor, he will regret haviing treated so 4-"stem w(;aid effect this object better tl,han any other. cavalierly youniig Mohawk, when shie sends hlim greetThe m(ore and the farther all tihe various opinions in ing, that she has given him a 1000 majority over his the State are represented in the Governmenit, the more whig opponent. [Laughter.] attached will all classes of the people becomie to that My iriend has also misrepresented my remarks. Ie G(overnieit, whether or not, their peculiar views were says that I claimned for every interest and every party carried out. I shade a representation in the G>neral Asse,mbly.' hat He, (Mr. Nav.,) was decidedly in favor of the di- I did say was, that any population of 20,0 0, if it could vision of Hamilton county into separate election dis-: be found within a county, capable of being severed anid t.riets-unless this is dione Hamilton county will con- singled out, without dividing county, township or ward titine to cotitrol the legislation of the State. lines, that then such 20,000 population, being the quo Mir. HOLMES said there had been a great latitude tient of representationi, should have its own represenof dicussion upon tlte amendment, (proposing the tation, without being swamped by other quotients of single district system,) offered bytlie gentleman from the same county. Such constituencies can be foiund Ross, (Mr. GaEEE..) The principles of the Report in Hamilton and other countie, not with very various had been befre thie people of the State, since last interests, but with various fteliugs, various sentiments Juiie, and as yet no serious objections had been made and various rights and principles, which cau be better to the Report. But at this time it is claimed that it attended to and better represented directly, than indi is defective, intasmuch as it does notprovide forsingle rectly, or in other words. these people can speak better districts. He was opposed to the division of count- through their own direct represent,tive, than through ties aud to the single district system and had so de- a mixed and indirect represeutationi of two or seven. elared himself in commtttee as early as during the I wish therefore that this quota of population shall be summer session of tis Convention. RHf' had, it was permitted to utter their own sentimments through their true, consented to the division of Hamilton county. o'vwi immediate representation and iiot to be stifled by Mr. H. samd that She differed with his col- other partsof the same county. For instance the 9th league,']Mr. RIt:.ELIN,] if he clearly understood him. and 10th wards of Cincinnati is pritncipally settled by If his colleague intendedto say that the Gernan pop- Germans. I claim that these two wards, haviyg the elation of Hamilton county, for instauce, should have requisite popuilation aud being distilnt inl habits, feelaRepresentative in the General Assembly, exclusively ilgs and principles, should have the right, to have as their own, he was opposed to him. If he meant that a representative, whomsoever they please, without beg 759 ATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 28. But what irconsistency is there in all this. I hare tried to make the legislative power an integral whole, that is, I have eludeavered, that the various portions of Ohio should each be represented,-eacis represetjtative speak ing the vo ic e o f his locality, and all these voices toget e t ther to be the law-nmaking power. You might an well accuse me of unfa',rness aiid inDoCsistency, be cause I refuse to call the little M iarni River the Mkqsis. sippi, although indirectly it is a tributary to the latter. Nor is there any inconsistency involved in the faet that I detertyiite, that the little Miami, shali seek its own channel to the Ohio and not to be, forced through the Scioto Valley or great Miami Vailey,-that each l~ibu tary should fructify its own shores, nurmu,2riiig its ov u melody/ avid cairyieng cut its owe purposes. It mriay be inconsistent with old -nol~ons Sof coltlily represeit tati,Da, but it is consiste}}t with true principles of rep resenitation. I ask, what is the idea of our wlo)}e g[~overament,-it is that every man, worman and child en the state is lep. resented in the Governmentit, not in their peculiar whitmis; but their rights, and ou r General Assembntl y, is, at least supposed, to rt-,Rect, the will of oar people, That is the basis of a representative democracy.'I'be reason is this, that we can not all night, we car not all be heard; stb1ldivisiors are therefore made, bat eveib there we can not all be heard, therefore we elect Relp reseiitatives and these men represnt iTs and Hot them-o selves. They speak our vsizee or shotuldi do so. Now I ask my friend, since we can mot attt meen,i Co}unIbIIS and speak our own sentifmentis, whether we shot)tld not come as near to it, as we can coinsistenit with other re letionrs of socie-ty, aid I know from his democracy, that he will grant this, and then I ask him whether .intgle Dia,riots do not approximate necarer to the pee~ ,pie, whether through themi we will Pot get aearer to the will of the people, thans through his system which pile seven Representatives on top of each other, anid whicht makes us swallow not onaly ifteel a repre.senta tive we don't want, but also others, with wholmy we are remotely oilv eooncerted. The domnriant majority in a county select Represenitativws for all portl,es of the coniltv unti,tr your plat),-in ours each part seleets its own. Which i most repb co mtty ptan or the single IDistricts, I leave to others to decide. I have been zypbratied for voting against theT wil of my conlstituents. InI reply, a briefstatenietit. I haYe }ong held these sentiments. nod took occasion to express them in the Senate in the session of'47-. 1 then stated, that I opposed the dirision of Harmilton county, only — Ist. Because it was unneo-stitntionaI. 2d. Because it did not even give us singI'e districts, as for instance, Ross and Pickaway were put together, while each was entitled to onie. 3d. It divided Cineitimati, with a view to gire certaii, interests the preponderance. 4th. Because it was unfair in the then state of p wrties and other Swatters in th.e State. I then stated, that I liked the single distriet se —tern-that I woulld sustain it as a provision in the new Con~stitution, and I then} predicted, treat the dis4honest ap lieat/onl of-that honles~t princeiple,;then maade aitd then resisted by Ale, would prejudice tide ranirds of the democrat~s against it, arid'that for that reason espee~ially, I deprecated the then, proposed division of' old} Hamilton. My beans have been realized. All aroulnd mne IF see scowling faces. and I see plainlly that my remarks awe not viewed withl pleasure by my party friends. The single dist rict system bias fewfrientds among thedler.Focrate, not because it is not right, bult because deep prejudice precludes even an ex;minatio~~ of the ~ub. ging it as a favor from the other wards of Cincinnati, or from the country portion of Hamilton county. Or reverse the illustration. Here are the 2d and 5th wards of the city, havinug also a distinct constituency, of full population, settled principally by the mercantile com munity. Now I ask should they go a begging to the 9th and 10-th wards to permit them to have that person as a representative, whom they like, and to which the county is entitled, in consequence of the populationi resident therein? Shall we be made to beg of others, our own property, and our own rights? I think not, and I shall vote to give to the river men living in the 3d and 4th, a chance to speak through their own repre sentative, their wishes and sentiments. The wards al ready referred to, theirs,-the country, thlieirs,-and the Germans, theirs. I want no more swamping of constituencies, no more stifling of voices,-no more court house centre influ ences,-I want a true, thoroughly radical, separate and distinct sinigle constituency for every representative who sits ill Columbus. This is the true method,-this is honest,- it is right. My friend from Trumbul}, (Mr. RANNEY,) is very careful never to touch the true question. I said yes ter(lay that the dividing line between us single district men and our opponents is, whether the people,-God hs living bodies and souls,-shall be represented, or the corporation linies, brick houses, streets, banks or anyv other mere material interest. And I then said, that once grant to us, that population is the basis, aind we could drive you from position to position, for the, opposition to single districts can get no foot hold, unless it plants itself upon the old idea of a borough representatioi. I then ailed upon my frienc to refute my positions, based as they all were upon this prilicipie, that populationi is the acknowledged basis of rep-w tesentation. But he has been very careful to go all around my argumitents, but equally careful to never touch them. I expected as much, and to this hoer not one of the debaters has dared to approach our impregnable position. True! captious objections have been made to the details of the plai. to which if seriously urged I may reply hereafter, but the priiicil)le has not been even touched, and my friend, (Mr. RANNzY,) with his usual caution in debate, knowing that not to say something would not do, anud that hlie dare not deny that population is the tru, basis of representation, has admitted it, but he claims at the same tinme, that the county as a county, hlad some clainis [which by-the-by, he did not define,] for representation, and he has thus adroitly avoided both horns of the dilemma, by getting on both. My friend then means to say, that the county gets the representatives. I say it is the people within it. A slight differetnce, but onle, which makes all the difterence in tih is discussion, if members will but coni sider it. But my friend has tried to throw me on the defensive by cluarging upon me a trebie inconsistency. First he says, that I denied the right to submit questions to the people in the couniies,-that next I tried to get |. al legislative authority for county boards, and thatt e,:ow I anm again back, claiming for every man to be r, presented it) his peculiar whimns, interests and views. A plain statement will set this a~ll righl. I did not Drift the section as now in the Constitution, (Sec. 29, Leg. Rep.) and I have now some doubts, whether it should be retained. All local power of taxation and legislation has been denied and the sectioni as drafted by me originally, having the reference to local boards and local regulation of all local affairs may now, in its present shape, be nmishievous in its character. I tried to remedy all these evils, and I do not klow, but what ! may yet vote to strike it outr '760 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FR[DAY, FEBRUARY 28. authorize the legislature to confer such powers uponl local boards, thev sealed the fate of the single district system. If gentlemen are now desirous of"single districts" they imudt give us the agency desired-the only agency by which that system can be realized. I object, also, to the machinery contemplated bv t}w present amendmnent. First, we have a division of cities from the rest of a county-and then a subdivision oil each side of the dividing line Such an arrangemeut complicates and prejudices the proposed reform. I prefer that the coun tty should remain undivided, unleas a pure system of single districts is adopted. I will read for information what would be effectual, in my judgment, to secure single districts: "';gheniever, at a decennial period, a county is entitled tof tvo or more representatives, the trustees of the townsh-ips..arid the Council of every incorporated city, (not exceeding three representatives of each ward therein,) shall assemnbl at such time as may be prescribed by law. and divide their respective counties into representative dlistricts,eiual to tihe number of members to which such counties maybe entitled, and shall cause to be filed in the offices of the Secretary (,4' State and the Clerks of their respective counties, a description of such representative districts, specifying the naumbt of each district, and the population thereof. Eaoh represene tative district shall contain, as near as may be, an equaa nu:mber of inhabitants, and shall consist of convenient anwt contiguous territory; but no town or ward shall be divided in the formation of representative districts; provided, that if there shall be a fractional excess of population sufficient to give additional Iepresentation, as provided in the sed i::tion, such representative or representatives shall oe ele,ea by the entire county." On motion the committee rose and reported and then On motion of Mr. ItOLMES, thie convention took a recess. ject. Thus wrong always begets wrong,-may the future save this honest principle. But not only in the Senate did I utter these sentin,ents, but also at home, through the columns of our party organ, and I have reason to believe that my views were well kinown to my constituents. I stated them again last sinner, when I intr,)duced the schedule, upon which this whole apportionment report is based; but I have yet to hear the first whisper, either through the papers or otherwise, against my position on this subject. I have therefore the right to conclude that my views are not disapproved, and that there is a strong gene ral public sentiment in favor of it. Still I felt the unpleasantness of my position, in standing alone in the Hamilton delegation. My colleagues say that they are equally certain that they represent the views of our common constituents. I have given the facts upon which I base my conclusions. I shall act ipon them, and my colleagues must act upon theirs. nLet the future decide between us. I would merely hint, however, that this discrepancy among common representat.ives of a c(mmon colnstituency, should warn us, that this seven-fold mixed and indirect representation involves us in inconsistencies and contradictions, which could at once be avoided by the single district system. A similar inconsistency now exists in the, Butler represent ation, on the Repeal question. A little cool reflection would set us all right. I may hereafter say something upon the partv view of this matter, and also upon the general interests of our people in Hamilton. But I will now close, trusting that the opponents to the single district system will approach a little nearer the true argument in this matter, and that they will yet tell us whether our people or our county corporations are to be represented in the new goxvernment. Mr. TAYLOR. I am the friend of the single district system, and because I am and have been, I welcomed, withinii the first fortnight of May, the discussions which then occurred upotn the resolutions introduced by the gentleman front Hamilton, [Mr. REiEMELIX.1m If at that time it could have been anticipated that the whig party on this floor-if I nmay use such an expression, would be in fevor of single districts, I believe that a different direction nmight have been given to the de. bate upon the subject at that time. When discussion upon this subject first arose, the getntleman from Hamilton, [Mr. REEMELT N,] and myself, in advocating the single district systemn, pointed out the only agency which could secure lhat reform. What was that agnncy. A local board, or legislature within each county, composed of representatives of the people in different townships and wards, constituting the only proper agency for dividing counties into election districts. What other agency can be instituted? Can the legislature at Columbus divide the State into election districts? Every diserimninatiug mined at once sees the impropriety of this. Stlall the State be districted by a court ofjustice? The emrnployrment of such a tribunal for such a purpose would be a violation of every correct principle. A board of county commissioners, three in number, under the itifuence-as such boards almost invariably are-of court house cliques would certainly be objectionable. A hat other and suitable body then, is there e for the formation of election districts than a boly of Representatives elected by the people in their different p townships and wards? This would constitute a proper and effective agency for districting the State. Buts Mr. President, the proposition for such local tribunals was voted down immediately-the seal of ( reprobation was promptly placed upon that scheme. I And, sir, I tell gentlemen that when they refused to 1 On motion of Mr. MANON, The Convention resolved i t self in to a Committee of the Whol e, (Mr. KiRKwooD in th e C hair,) and resunied the consideration of the second Report of the Conmmittee on Apportionmenit, submitted by Mr. Io.MsLs con the 26th in,st. The CHAIRMAN said the question pending wihen the committee rose, was upon the adoption of th,I amendment of the gentleman from Ross, (Mr. GREE14. proposing to strike out the third section, and insert a plan of representation for the House of Representatives by single districts. Mr. GREEN of Ross said he had submitted a general principle in relation to thle subject of representationwhich no genitlettian had yet attempted to resist. But the main argument of gentlemen oil the opposite side had been predicated upon the difficulty of settling upoil a plan by which these countydivisions should be made. The gentlemnan from Trumbull had been pleased to remark that he (Mr. G.) having been a member of the General Assembly, must be familiar with tricks andl frauds in connection with this subject; and that geutl#man apprehended that, therefore, there must be sonm unfairness in this proposition, which nobody else had discovered. BUt the gentleman took care to tell us that he, himself, having never served in the Legislature, was not accustomed to such things. If he had not told us this, the facility with which he smells mischief, and the glowing style in which he describes how frauds might be perpetrated, and combinations for the purposes of fraud might be entered into.would have led to suspicion in the minds of some that he had mtglh familiarity with such things. After some further reflection upon this subject, ho (Mr. G.) had drawn up a proposition which he held is his hand, and which he would ask leave to substitute for the section submitted by himself on yesterday. He 7 (),I I AFTERNOON SESSIOY. 2,v2 o'r,,LocK, P. M. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FBRUiP.AY 28. thought he should be able, by the modifications which, he: desired to make, to dispose of some of the difficulties ..stated by the gentleman tromrn Trumbull and his great fears of the corruptions which might be connected with this six g'e district system. In his proposition, as he dseired iow to modify it, he had provided as follows: "So-. 3. Every county. city, or incorporated town, hav ing a.opulation sufficient to entitle it to two or more rep resentatives, according to-the provisions of Sec. 2 and 6 of rhis article, shall be divided into single districts, equal in tun,ber to the numniber of representatives to which such county, city or town may, at any tinme, be entitled —within each of which districts there sha!l be elected one representa tive. Such division shall be made of counties, by the trus te's of the respective townships therein, and of cities or Iowai:s by the municipat authorities thereofeof compact ter itoiy, aud as near as possible of equal populationsand, whesi the same shall be practicable. without dividing town ships, Wa,rt!% or other election precincts; provided,Dthat if in a;LA such county, city, or town there shall be a fractional ex Coess fpopulation sufficient to give ali additionalrep'esenta tive for any portion of the decennial term, such representsa live shall be elected by the entire county, city or town.", It would be seen, that he had adopted the suggestion made this morning by the gentlenian from Erie, (Mr. TAtYLOR.) Wbhen he first tintroduced this proposition, on yesterday, lie thought it were better riot to go into detail at all, but mierely to provide for the permanent division of counties, &c, into districts; because he ap proeliended that, if he went at all into the details of the matter, he might endainger the principle. But what possible objection could there be to this ar ratngement for districtirg, if it could be done without involving greater evils than those which sometimes arise out of a system of representation by entire coun lies? Every gentleman mniust admit, that the principle was correct, and ought to be adopted. HIe then proposed the plan for dividing into districts, w'hich he had read. He proposed thl)at the division of counties should be made try the towash p trustees-a large body of men, he confessed, where there might be eighlteen or twenty townships in a county-but, still it wasan important trust, the execution of which was to occur but once in teil years. Could there be any dan ger ill trusting those men, elected annually by the peo ple for their political standing and respectability, with this importalnt service? If it were safe to trust this Convention, of oeie hundred and eight men, with t he representation of the entire interests of the State of Ohio, extending indefinitely into the future, he could suppose there would be no danger in entrusting these counay sub-divisions once in ten years to such a body of men as he had ilndicated. Anid in regard to cities and towns, this matter of sub-division would be en trusted to their ward repre entatives. And lest gen t tlemen might apprehend danger here, he had gone on to provide that their districts shall be equal in popula. teon, as near as may be of compact territory; and that both tile citv'and county representations, in makingy these divisions, shall do so, as far as practicable, without disturbing the integrity of ward or township lines. By reference to the bill, it will be seen, that there n,ere a number of counties entitled to two represents. tives, within a fraction. To meet this difficulty, he haprovided, that in such county or town, where therea shall be a fractional excess of population, sufficient to give an additional representative, for any portion of the decennial period, then such representative shallh be deeted by the entire city, county or town. It would riot be safe to throw these large fractions into districts by iheinselves, for it would destroy the principle of p giving to each portion of the county or town its proper weight and influence. lie admitted that so far as this fractional member was coneerled, his section did not contorm to his own idea of single districts. But he had not been able to determine upon an) mode of disposing of these fractional portions in a niore satisfactory manoer. Another reason which, induc.ed him to as'k for this modification,was to be referred to the priniciple involved'. It was in strict conformity with all our inotionS of r-e publicanisnm, that the representative should be brought as near to his constituents as possible, in order to secure all the benefits to be derived from a just and whIolesome responsibility. It was remarked on y e sterday, by the gentleman from Miami, ( Mr. DORSEY,) that thkis )rOPOsitioll WOUld not, perhaps, have been offered, had not sorne tempting reasons existed for such a mnovemJieint, such as the divi. sioIn of the ount y of Hamilton and the city of Cin - ciniat;i. But if gentlemen woulrd only look to the reportwhichI they themselves had presented, they might perceive that other cities and counties of the State would. of necessity, be divided in the manner pro posed. There were some six or eight of these counties, sucl as the counties of Muskingurn, Cuyahoga, Franklin, Montgomery, &e. He supposed that it was hardly necessary to detain the committee with any formal argumenit upon the single district svstem, for it was most manifest that even here in the city of Cincinnati, there were differ. ent locations of diversified speculative interests; which were entitled to distinct representations in the State Legislature; as was very correctly illustrated on yesterday by the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. PRwEr.MLl'.) He wotul(d not go so far, [nor did he so understand the gentleumani firom ttamilton,] as to say that because a certain portion of the city of Cin cinnati happened to be settled by German emigrants, they should be entitled to a separate representation simply because they were foreigners. By no neans. But sir, [he continued,j we do know that there may be peculiarities of habits, feelings, pursuits, as sociations and local interests, which ought to be con sulted in the Legislature of the State, and which could not be fully7 and fairly consulted and represent ed by an agent elected by people o~f different habits, feelings, pursuits associations, and local interests. I care lot, Mr. President, if tile comnmittee have been influenced by political considerations in the preparation of this report. I look only to results. I am not going to war against this scheme for the sim ple reason that I am sensible that I should be wast iiig both my time and the time of the convention by so doing: for I am entirely satisfied that the principle of the report will be adopted by the convention. and I have very little doubt that it will be adopted also in its details. I will, therefore, content tmyself with submitting the substitute which I have read, and ask leave of the Convention that it nmay be considered as a modification of the section wfhich I offered on yester,day. Tihe leave having been granted accordingly, and the section as modified, having been read through by the Chairman, Mr. GROESBECK said: I desire to vote correctly and properly upon this question, if I can. I have always been opposed to the division of counties or the purpose of representation, unless absolutely necessary. TThe county is a territorial organization, which I haste no doubt will always be kept up ill this State I love the. county. I have always been attached to these political organizations; yet it aft happen in a county that differentt intere~sts may arise w!~sieh may be entitled to diferent representations anld as I understand the report, these eases are provided for. According to my recollection, the report provides that where the antiounlt of population shall bee sufficient for the purpose, a city mayl be set apart fromn . the county ill whlich it is situated for the purpos {of 762 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- FRIDAY, FEBRUARY Q8. a separate representation-that is, where the county out the county, it is desired There is the prinoutside the city shall have enough, andwhere the city ciple, fixed in the Constitutioni-and when the divishall have eoulgh to comimard a separate representa- sion1 is made, it is into counties, not districts, so that tion. If I unlderstand the cornmmittee uponi this sub- all our -representatives will go up to Columtbus as ject, they do not report in favor of the division of a representatives of counties, not as represenltatives of city into two or more sepalrate representative dis- towns, cities, boroughs, and single districts. It seems tricts. And I think, Mr. Chairman, they are right in to mae there is no need of goitng one slep fturthe,r, in the that. way of Constitutiotnal provision upon this subject: Let us take, for example, the city of Cincinnati and it is on this account that I shall oppose the docThe great argument, in favor of single districts, if I trine of district representatives within one and the understand it, is, that there are distinct interests same county as contemplated in this ani)endmentof the within the limits of a city corporation, which should gentleman from Ross, and in this report. We have be entitled to their own representation. But then, if made sufficient provision for'it in the legislative reyou proceed to divide and sub-divide within the cor- port, esuntties miay be divided according to it, not into porate limits, you at once war against that principle districts but into counties, and this when the people upon which you advocate a distinct city represenlta- thenmselves desire it, and not before. Let us so leave tion. Suppose the city of Cincinnati to be entitled it, and say niothinug in this report about separate repreto six representatives; three of them representing sentatives fur cities within a county. Let the inhabidemocratic and three of themi representing whi dis- tants in such counities fix this matter for themselves tricts. There would be a representation neutralized under section 35, of the legislative report. to all intitents and purp,)ses. I can see no-ithing more, Mr. MASON. I think we have reason to complain, in this result, than a div ision of the c ty interests —a that those gentlemen who are opposed to single dishouse divided, and divided against itself tricts have so unifiormly failed to meet the arguments I am. therefore, totally opposed to the division of a advocated by the friends of that plicy. Gentlemen city. Yet I am fret to say, that a case may exist, have muntltiplied their argumenrts against the policy of where it miay be proper to give to a citv its own rep- single districts for representation in the General Asresentative, ald( to the county outside of the city its sembly, but they have wiolly failed to meet the own represenitative. And I understand that is all the friends of the measure upon the grounds which they division of counties hvlich is advocated by the gen- have assumned. Anrid the gentleman [Mr. GP.OESBECK, tlemanit from Miami, (Mr. Dors.y,) and those other who has occupied the attention of the committee, genitlerien with him, who have presented this Re- seems to me to have avoided the issue in the same port. way. But what need have wve, at all, of going into this The ground assumed by the friends of single dissubject of separating cities fron the remainder of tricts is, that we have made population, not property their counties, in the consideration of this Report? or territory, the basis of representation. Hence, it As I understand the action of this body heretofore, follows that every community possessing a number we have already made all the constitutional provision of inhabitants equal to the ratio proposed, should be upon this subject which the gentlemain fromin Miamni entitled to one Representative, who shall be the expo desires. If we look into the legislative report, Sec. nent of the political principles of the constituent 35, it is there provided that counties of a certain body, and possess an iltimate knowledge of the busiamount of population mray be divided. The provis- ness and pectlniary interests of those whom he repro ion, is in this language: sents. "Provided, however, that any county, either now or here- We say it is unjust for the voice of one, two or aftere, oiartsiiiin a population ofi one hundred thousand or more, constituent bodies, sufficient to be entitled to more inhabitants. may be sub-divided, whenever a majority o t t b ti of the voters residing in each of the sub divisions, shall ap- one, two or more, distinic Iepresentatives, to e sti prove of the law passed for that purpose." fl(ed by the majority with whom they mtay happen to Hlere is a Constitutional provision, by which any b associated, whetliey they be Democrats or Whigs. county, when it shall comre to have a population We say it is wrong that the political principles of which will entitle it to two or more representatives, such constituencies should be suppressed, or their may be divided into two or more counties. When- voice silenced, by associating them with others holdever the population of a county, consisting of one ming different priticiples, and having, it may be, differhundred thousand or more inillabitants, shall desire etit teests. to be diied when those ho dWell upon this side ith respect to the arguments that have been adof the proposed line of division, and those who dued by the gentlea from Hailton Mr. G sdwell upoi that side shall concur in the desire to BEcK,] against tie single district system, each and have a division-whenever they shall becose con- eveiy one of them might be employed just as effectviriced, that it i for their interest to divide, here is a ively in support of the system of electiitg members v ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~leyin uprtcof that iytem o ecing mebr cstituoal provision by ich such a divi of Congress by general ticket. Yet the general tickmay be affected. And what iilore do wve want? We et system has been abolished by Congress, and its want a little more and we have it. If gentlemen will rejection has been acquiesced in by all the States in read a little further, they will find that it is provided the Unio,n; so that sowv, throughout the country, that "no towni or city shall be divided, nor shall any every member of Congress is elected in a single and new county be laid off under this provisioni, which separate district. shall contain less than 20,000 inhabitants." The gentleman argues that here, in Cincinnati, the There we have a provision, by which every twenty uiterests of the people are not so much in conflict thousand inhabitasts ini a county, containing a Loop- + with each other as to require separate representation. ulation of Oie hundred thousand, shall be entitled to I But that is not to the point. The question is, whether one representative. It seems to me that there is wis- } there is, in this city, a sufficientt portion of its popudom ini this provision; and I conmend it to the con- lation who, if they had the orportunity of a separate sideration of the gentleman from Ross. representation,'would elect, a Re.presentative of differ I ask, again, what need have we of anythisg fur- ent political principles from those who would be ther? Every twenty thousand inhabitants within the forced upon them, if the whole city asid county were county when it shall have oise hundred thousandl inhab- to constitute a single district and required to elect by t anuts shall be eatntled to a representative, if through general ticket? 763 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 28. geislalion and policy of the Empire State. To take away this overshadowing itfluenc, of t he city, it was divided into as many single dis tr icts a s it was entitled to Senato lrs and Representatives. And it will soon be so here, if not to the same extent, still in a a n approxi mating ratio. So great as to render it certain that without the adoption of the single district system, s the whole state of Ohio will be brought i nto subse rvie ncy to the policy w of Hadi lton county. Mr. HOLMES was obligedt to tie gentleman fr o m Ross for presenting his project. But he w o uld ask that gentleman to look with hin a little into the practi c al workin gs of his plan of subadividing the county, by township truste es an d t he municipal auithorities of towns and cities The very wors t feelings would be brought to bear ill these bodies, assembled for this pur pose. In a county of s om e t wenty-five orth irty towno ships, three tr u s tees cotning up from e ach township would give a body of ciinety m en; an d there was not a conceivable political difficul ty which they would n ot get themselves into. All manner of political intrigue would be the order of the da y amongst them. Parties and partizans would giv e and take all manner of a d-s vantage, so as to swe ep away eithetue p or the whig or the democrat ic influence in the couritv, a ccording to the st re ngth of parties wh ich might happens t o sd t in the county board. To adopt tiles pprinciple, would be to enr ourage t he very t hing wiih they had been warring he against, and which the peopl e had depre cated so much in the state legislature. Mr. H. continued his remarks at some leingtlh, by way of review of the single district system, illustrat itg its political application to the counties of Cosho cton and Muskiigum an d allegig, that the frvactiopnal por tipops of thtese and other counties could not be fairly represented under it. Mr. BARNETT of Preble. I suppose that I may be allowe d to make a few remarks upo n th is s u bject, i nasmuch a s I come from a county which is ic i favor of the single district system. The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. HOLMEs,) who has just taken his seat, h as alledged that in l the case of the county of Muskingui i gross injust ice wo uld re, suit from any a ttempt to divide that co unty into two d istr icts, bec ause o f the fractional represeintatiotns which, lie supposes, cannot be fai rly adjusted. But now let us take th at county. divide it under the pro visions of the amendment of the gentlerran from Ross, into two equal districts, or as nearly so as township lines wtil permit. Let us mtppose, for the sake of the argument, that the two distri cts are not e xact ly equal. Th ese two districtsrl the n, will elect their two re presen - tatives until the last session of the. decennial period, when this extra representative will be elected by the two districts in common-just exactly according to the principle upon which the representatives are proposed to be elected by the report. Now, let it be recollected that this county of MuskinguM is a whig coutityi and it is fair to suppose that the various township trustees, going up for the purpose of districting the counitv, would constitute a majority of whigs in the county board. Was it possible then for such a whig board to turn round and gerrymander the county so as to divide it into two democratic districts? Certainty not. But they should leave the political character of thle county precisely as it now stands. glut it might so happen that, in spite of all they could de, they would divide the county so as to makze one demsocraitic and one whlig district. Such,, it had been suggested to him, would be the. inevitable result, in Montgomlery counlty. And the samW1e result might follow elsewhere. Balt this convention was met hers for the purpose of makinrg a just and equitable cons8titution; and not a constitution for party. -:No sir; we havemnet here fat Sir, I know of niothling more just and equitable nothing miore righteous in principle —than that everyv comniuliit, of a population sufficient to entitle it to a Represe.j,tative, should have the privilege of being represented-of having their voice heard, and their feelings represented, in the Legislature of the cotintry. There is lno ira-practicability in the proposition of the gentleman from- Ross, [Mr. GREEN.] It proposes the single district system, and it does not derange the plan of the standing committee; it throws nothing they have done into disorder; it can be adopted with out the slightest disturbance of the plan they have sutbmitted;-and why should it not be adopted? Is, it desirable to gentlemen representing the "rural dis tricts," to have a great concentrated and controlling political power built up in Hamilton county, that shall have the power to shape the legislation and policy of the country? Is it desirable thit the Rep resentatives from the country districts of the State should be obliged to consult the Hamrnilton county delegation, to conciliate their good will and approba tion, for every measure they may choose to introduce for the benefit of their constituients'? For the amount of representative force from this county would be so large that, if thrown into the scale orn either side, it would give a preponderance which would control the civil policy of the State; and, as far as they might possess political influence, they would exercise abso lute control. But the gentlemana says, that a representatiotn by single districts in the citv might have the effect to neutralize each other. That is just what ought to be the effect of represelntatiorn everywhere. Is it desira ble to suppress the political wishes of two, three, or more constituelicies in Hamilton county, and compel them to be whether they are so or not, all democratic? That is whiat the gentlema n would say. But I say, let themn be whigs or democrats, I desire no such rule. I hold that every district large enioughl to be en.titled to a representative, should have their political feelings t and wishes distictly represented in the Legislature of t,e country. There could be no doubt, that in thle election of a United States Senator, the members of each party whether elected by single or dosble districts would act together; anid to that extent, of c ourse, it would not be otbjee.tionable that they should do so. Party sympathies weold be sure to bring them together up)oi such occasions. I esteem this to be a question of groat importance to the Slate-, although politically, tile party with whom I act will not be senitefitted by it. It is possible thiat they today lose one or more representatives by it. Nevertheless, what is right ought to be done even if the right should operate temporarily against the party to which I belong. My friend over the way, (Mr. GROESBECK,) will not sav that the separate interests of the whigs of Hamilton county should not be represented in the General Assembly. He never has said it; and he never will say it. It is their principles that the people desire to have represented more than their property, if they could not have both represented. I commend the gentleman from Ro,ss for introducing the principle of single districts; for it is the only true principle of ap~portionlment. It is desired and expected by the great body of the people of all parties. But the committee have reported a scheme by which the county of Hamilton atnd some eight or ten other counties in the state are to elect all their represent~atives, arid in Hasmilton county adl their senators by a general ticket. Now sirs ill the stateof New York, they were obliged to break up that mlighty influence which came uo to the le.gislatnlre every year ktrm the city of New York. That City had obtained the control of the le 764 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FiIDAY, FEBRUARY 26. the purpose of making a constitution that sliall be for' here give the pledge of my poor ability to make this the whole Stite of Ohio, entirely fair and equitable. declaration good. We are sworni', f(, this. It is for ourselves, and per- Mr. MITCHELL was glad to hear such a declara. haps for our -lil!r n, and children's children, that we tion coming from the other side of the chamber; but hiv.e beeii,-tl-, i,, here to establish the principles of it was notorious that, often as it had been repeated law upoii, jus,,,litable foundations. And I de- over th)ere, there had never yet been manifested in this si:e so to,c(ltuit r)yi self in the discharge of this duty, as body any proof of its sincerity. that t muay not be ashamed of mv votes, hereafter. He proceeded to recount the proceedings of the Oon Sir, I despise, from rmy very soul, the slightest truck- ventin, to show that from Andrews to Worthinyton, lijg to party feelinos, in our attempts, here to establish the whigs of this body had been as true as the needle the fundaientetal law, where we are sworn to the ob- to the pole upon every political question upon which servance of equal and exact justice, under the requisi- thlev had been called upon to vote. tions of the constitution of the United States. The original formation of counties could be affected I desire to say one word in reference to the arguenet by no political considerations; but when you came to of the other gentleman from Hamilton, r[ Lr. GROeS- make subdivisions for representatives, the door was RocK.] There is no gentleman fupon thais floor fn, r Gopened for all the political corruptions to which hu,BECK.] There is no gentleman upon this floor for maqn nature could descend. whtom I have a higher respect I believe there is 10 no nH athrecole d descend. gentleman niore scrupulously honest. But I must sav - Hethen proceeded to express his dissent from the .views expressed,pon this subject by the getlema that, in his last argument, he has made a more signal ems expressed pon tis subet by the getlen] failure than I havw observed in him upon any i,ther ro Hamilton, [Mr. Gb OI,ecKt] question. He trsated the question as though the vari- He arged that the system prposed by the Stand ous intereste of the community were itecersarily a mng Committee, was as close an approximation to a tfgorlisticals Now I take a difftrnt view fr o.ariy at perfectly fair political representation of the State aq tagoniistical, Now I take a different view fr i~m ti rt~ could b~e a,ttainied, avoiding,, at the same time, the I understand that our agrtpultrral, commercial, and eold bte apportione, avodinment of manufacturinig interests are each promotive of the oth- tmptations to corrptions the apportionment of er ad tht all ttempts to represet tem as tg- representation to which hlie had referred, and which lie er, and that all attempts to represen~t them as aiitago- had condemned, as embraced in the amendment of the nistical in our legislative halls is manifestly wr og odemned,asn lmbraced in the a neodniet of the But it is certainly right and proper to make good and tMrle. GREEN of Ross, then took th] floor in reply wholesome laws with respect to every interest of tthe to the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. GreoLs-elK] State; and, in order to do so, it is necessary to fetch and the gentleman froiH Eric, [Mr. TL C.] representatives from every ilnterest, and, at thte sam an the f gentleman from Ene, [hir. TAiLr te] time, to keep them as near to their respective c)ustitu- The former gentlet ian based hi, notionlat of the baeuceies a-9 possible; arid to ma~ke themn directlv respoii 51s o f representation, not upon population but uposi eiicies c.-s p~ossible; and to make them directly re..poiisi- territory'and territorial Ihes?_-at) absurdity which ble for their conduct as representatives. Here, for ex.rrtory and trriori al absurdity which ble ~~~~~~~~~~~~~needed no formal refuitat-ioii he(re. ample, is the commercial interest of this city which The latte r gentleman had advaiced a theorv of dineeds to be represented, and, of course, none can vision which he might have adiopted, ut tle did not well select a man for this purpose, as the people of the wish to war too much agai nst the repo(rt of the Coincentral portion of this city where this interest is the mittee T hat g entleman quarrelled with the princistrongest. So of the manufacturing interests. Th e districts, beause he could not have it people of the eastern part of the city, where this inter- carried out by the conjoint act io of the c ity and ,st is the strougest, are the best qualified to elect and t by tlse conjoint action f t he city and ontv weresea * * * 9. l.~~~~~~~ COun~ty and becalSthClVad ont -r ea ,en( up their representative. There certainly can be' raely cnsiere d in the [itMisiond ctht, Err G send~~~~~~~~~~~~~ iately' considered in thediiio B'th [M G nothing antagonistical between these interests, when was obliged to regard this divisio of the county they are represented in this way. And if the citv from tlhe city in order to nake his aniendii, ent crlwere divided iqto representative distriets, accordinlig form to the report. to the plan of the geiillemnii from Ross, all the vari- Mr SAWYER (demTnandedc that the Coniiiiittee rise ous interest, of the city woulid be so represented. and report the bill to the C'inv( otiol. Iipol which In the gentlemian's reference to the provisions of the motion the vote was taken w'ithli the following result Legislative Report, he seemed to overlook the fact, affirmative 30. negative 37. thlat a county of a population of an hundred thou- SEVErAL VOetCEs. "No qlorl1." sand, could only be divided into two counties. Mr. SAWYER demanded that the rule be enifore('d, But there is avery serious objection to these county which requires that. upon findin' twlemselves withdivisions, which the gentleman passed over entirely. out. a quorum the Committee of tihe Whole, shall rise The people, who might be entitle to a separate repre- and report this fact to Cooventio', but several memsentation, might not be always williig to incur the bers insigtin,, that there was a quorum present. expense of the necessary buildings which must follow The CHAIRMAN took the count over a(galin, with upon the erection atnd organization of every new the following result-affirinative 31, negative 43. county. So the motion was lost. Altlhough I could -not agree with the committee s Mr. GROESBECK responded to the genlleman fr-om AlthughI cold ot gre e w i t th comitte s Ross, [Mr. GarEs,] ex.-,laininig and sustaininig the far as to allow myself to sign the report, yet I must Evos, [Mr. GRE, exrain and sustaing the say, in justice to the -nmembers of the Comnmittee onre take. Apportionment, that I have seen nothing like a wish, MIr. WOODBURY moved that the Committee nowr or an attempt, on the part of any gentleman, t ntro. rise and report the bill to the Convention. dace any principle which would sgnetion any scheme of gernymandering, so far as the representation iii the The question was then taken upon Ilie adoption of House of Representatives is concerned. But when i the amendment of Mr. GLEEN of Roes, and it was dewe shall come to consider their Senatorial apportion- cided in the negative-affirmnative 39, negative 40. ment, I olay tell another story. But, "sufficient unto Mr. COLLINGS moved to amend the third section the day, is tle evil thereof." I hope some gentleman as follows: Sti ike out all after the w(rd "thence," more cuompetent than myself, will take it upon him to and insert these words: "to the second, first and fifth exam.' ni hat subject. I hope that every adherent to s respectively; and if four, to the fourth, third, the schemes of tere party advantage upon this sub- second and first sessions respectively." tewill shec ed ow to p al infamy an i Sec 4 Every c ounty which thall be joi ned t o any other ject, cilb are ount;'oltia inam;r cn ounti'o ~hes for a Representati,,e district, during ona. 765 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, FBRUJARY 28. decf-nnial period, shall, if at the next decennial period. it' like to see any of the poor fellows sent home in this have acquired sufficient population to be entitled to a s o of the great evils of te old Co rate repres ntation, become a separate Represenitative dis- way. t was oe of the great vi of te oldCo triut; provlded, there shall be left in the dist,ict fromn which stitution, that it fixed the number of representatives it shlall have been separated, a population sufficient for a so that they never could go beyond seventy-two inem Representatve but no such change shall be made, except at e-;ers. If it had not been for lhis coustitutional restric the regular decennial period forthe apportionrmentof Rep- lion, it ws is opinion that ucli political ijustice resentatives. lon t ws l opiio tht uc plticl ijustic Sec. 5 If it be found at the termination of any subse- would have hben avoided. quent ratio, that a county. heretofore entitled to a separate Mr. ARCHLIBOLD would like to see some scheme representation, has ltess than the number re,iu red fo Rep proposed for calling these supernumerary members, resentative, according to the new ratio, cunt said counity shall be attacledl to the county adjoining it having the small- ad tu them ot. est number of inhabitants, and the representation of said dis- A VOICE.-,"That would be the business of the trict shall be determined as herein provided. Governor." This amendment was also disagreed to. Mr. ARCHBOLD. But if the Govirnor were to go Mr. COLLINGS moved to aimend the fifth section up to the House of Representat;ves with his "train by substituting the word "previously," instead of the bands" to turn out these fellows, there might be some word "heretofore." difficulty in the case. At all events the members them. This amendiuent was rdiF:, reed to. selves, and their people at home, would always regard No further asiseudmetit being proposed to. this sec- it as a great hardship; and it was his opinion that the tion, thing could not be dolne at all in this slip-shod manner. The CHAIRMAN proceeded to read and announce Mr. MANON hoped the section would not be strick for consideratiou the sixth section, which is as fol- en oult. It was very hard for him to agree to the pro. lows: posed increase of the number of representatives. His Sec. 6. Any county having within its limits a city or cor- constituents were opposed to any increase beyond the porate town, with a number of llinhabitants equal to a whole old constitutional numbel. Tie provision for uppor ratio, at any decennial period, and still leaving in t'e county, tionmelt in the secosd section was so plaily set forth a population equal to a whole ratio at such decennial period, t such city or corporporate town shall be entitled to a separate that the fractio] members themselves could tell who rep esentation, to be determined as herein provided. amongst themselves would have to be sent home, in Mr. LARWILL proposed to'amend the report by the event of the inicrease of the number of representa Mr. LARWILL propos).,ed to'amtend the report b~y tives above. anc u~ie n wny striking out this entire sections. tives above 1e h dred aud twenty. Mr. WOOD)BURY de,sired to kniow whether the The motion was rejected-affirmative 36, negative sMr. ionURY desired to tow whetherc the 39. w b b isectiosi would not be subject to tllis constructiou, namely: that all tlhe representatives whichl might be Sec. 7. If, by any contingency it shall ever occur, that in r tu to the fifth sess ion of the decennia erod any session,the number of Iepresentatives shall exceed one returne to the fifth sesson of the ecenial pero hundred and twenty, then a reduction shall be effected by should( be deprived of their seals, whenever the whole withdrawing the additional menmbers which shall have beein number returned sh)ould amount to more than olje hun added for the smallest fractions, successively, until the num- dred and twenty? It might be exceediugly convenient ber of members shall be reduced to one bundred and twenty. i to insist upon such a construction, it' it Mlould h.appen Mr. OTIS moved to strike out this entire section. that such a reduction would change the political char Mr. OTIS said hlie made this nmotion out of a stn- acler of the body cere desire to imiprove tihe report, and to get rid of a Mr. HAWKINS saw nodifficulty at all in the ope difficulty which inight arise in the event thlat it should ration of hi section 11 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ration of this section. ever be necessary to make the proposed redtiction. r. DORSEY stated tht this apportioment a DORSY tount th ~etlenaufromSumit Morb DORSEY stated that this apportioinment was Mr. DORSEYthoughtthe nl nafrom Su mmit, Ito be made only onc e in ten years, accordilig to the [Mr. OTIS,] did not perhaps, exactly comprehend the provisions of the thirteenth ecto of the repert p[rovisions of the thirteenth sec'tioni of the report, rn,meaning of this section. It only proposed to reduce h he read and if it should le percived that, at the number of represeitatives to an hundred and ai)y oneof the five sessious, tlie whole iiumberof inrem twnyfrthe n u r ticuavessin whn andrti twenty for the particular session. wNlien, under tlli' heis would exceed 120, that number would be redutced scheme that nurobe minlight rise -above one hundreld iy cuetting off tne mermbers represetitig the smallest and twenty. fractions of the ratio; anl for the satisfaction of the Mr. OTIS, [ii his seat.] I -1toderstand that per- gentleman from Monroe, hlie suggested that such smallfeotly. Mrf..SY prcee tsa thttisetoest fractioss might occur in a county sending three rep Mr. DORSEY proceeded to say that this section was 8 ~~~~~n *.resentuativeqs s well as in a smaller county. was introduced as matter of compromise in the Com- r OTIS objected to this priici of ijustice s.. n n w~~~~~f~r. OTIS objicted t.o this p ri,cip.lo of injustice mittee, between those who were in favor of a larger. aen those who were, in afavor of a saller umber which was clearly involved in the section. Whenever aend those who were in a flavor of a smaller number *there should ha,,tip(,n) to be one or two members above of representatives, and he went on to show that it 120. tas operation would niecessar'lv deprive some one was hardly probable the number of representatives o on would ever rise above one hundred and twenty, un or two counties of their just ",eight in the representader *is se f-regulating pan. He did not, Iiini's(f tion of the State. And now the only question was: dler thils self-regulatling plan. He did not, himl-self, egard this sectio as f ay gret imortaice et whether it would be well to violate a general principle r.e..a. i wse oa s o a atise' vth by depriving some counties of this proportionate share b~ecaulse ~t was a com~prcmmnse, whtlch had satisfied the' becase of wsom gompoien hc be thouh'i w ld e - of representation ii the legislature simply for the sake minlds of some gentlemnel he thioughlt it wvould be ibiofse better not to hstriketh it out. bof prevelnting the number of represeDtatives from rebe better not to strike it out. mainitry, for a single sefsioii, beyondi the number of Mr. ARCHBOLD was in favor of striking out the i for a sigle sessio, beyon te number of 1~20. If the parovision had beenl to reduce oilIv when section because it operated oppressively upoi the Sec- t * x *,,, ~~~~~the average represelstation mnighst come up to 120, hse end rate coutit.es, and might compel them to submit to e p an unjust diminution of their streingth in the G n I would not hive mde the motion. Asse~mbl>y liThe question was now taken on the motion to strike Mr. REEMELIN also hoped that the section would out the seventh section, isud it was agreed to-aflirma be stricken out; for, if the principle of representation shal 40, heratfte37 Sec. 8. Ttce ratio for Scuators shall forever heresfter be edopted ini the report was right, why tiot adhere to it? ascertained b) divitding the whole population of the State by If it should happen, once ini a great while, thiat more the numberthirty five. than onse liuticired atid twen~ty mleintsers shouldl be re- Sec. 9. The same rules bhall apply, for spportioning the ttirised to the House of Represetntetives5 he would not; fractions of Senstorial districts, and f'ir separating cities tarsd ~ he Huse f Reresntatves,he wuld ot;and corporate towns from their respective counties, and len' 766 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCH 1. annexing districts which may hereafter fall below the Senatorial ratio, as in the House of Representatives. Mr. STILWELL proposed to amend the ninth section, in the latter clause thereof, by strikinrg out the word ",the," and inserting these words, "tthree-fourths of a full," so that it would read: "and for annexing districts which mrny hereafter fall below three-fourtlhs O of a full sen-torial ratio.". MYr S'rILWP,,LL explained his amendment. Mr. OTIS Has satisfied that this plan of representation with respect to Senators would not work well. He had made himself somewhat familiar with this subject by two weeks hard labor last summer, and he thought it would be better to fix the number of Senators permnanently. If the number thirty-five were a favorite number he had no objections. He made this suggestion as a friend to the report, and because he thought he saw, plain enoulgh, that, between this and the time whetn the constitution would have to be again submitted to tl-e people, no part of the State would be entitled to an extra Senator, except, perhaps, the city of Cincinnati. Mr. DORSEY hoped the amendment of the gentleman from Mauskingum would prevail. It would be perceived, itl looking over the report, that tihe committee did not feel themselves bound to come up to the full ratio. He thought, therefore, it would be entirely prop:r to provide for annexing districts, in cases where they do not come up to the full ratio. ir. STILWE:I,f,'S amendment was now agreed to. 5it. LARWILL proposed furthler to amend the report, by striking out the 9th section as now amended. This motion was lost. Sec. 10. Whenever any county shall have a sufficient population to entitle it to a separate senatorial representation, and also to leave in the district from wbich it is taken, a population sufficient to be entitled to a Senator, such county g shall become a separate senatorial district at any regular de. I cetinial apportic,nimerit. Sec(. 11. The numnber of Senators shall never, at any time, evceed forty members, and if it become necessary to effect a reduction of the nunmber of Senators, it shall be done in tiheo manner provided in section seven, for the House of ieepresenltatives. Mr. REEMIELIN moved to amend, by striking out the 11lth section. This motioi was agreed to. .Sizc. 12. For the first ten years after 1851, the apportionmerit of Senators and Representatives shiall be as h ereirnafter provided, and no change shall be miade in the princip!es of representatioln as herein established, or in the districts or sen. atorial purposes. Mr. STANTON moved further to amend the report,h by striking out the whole of tihe 12th section. This mnot~ioni was lost. Mr. REEM'YIELIN proposed to amend the 12t'. seelion, by adding thereto the following: "And all territory belonging to a county at the time (of apportionmerit, shall as to the right of representation anid suf. frage, remain an integral part thereof during the deceinnal period." Mr. OTIS said: If he understood the amendment, it proposed that in the formation of new counties, no change should take place iii the representation. The CHAIRMAN.. During the period of ten years. - Mr. REFMELIN's amrnaldment was th,nti agreed to. - fec. 13. The Governor, Auditor, and Secretary of State, or any two of them, shall, at least six months prior to the October election of 1861, and at each decennial period thereafter, ascertain and determiine the ratio of representation f or Senators and Representative in the General Assembly, according to the decenulal cetisus, upon the principle herein provided. the number each county or district shall be entitled to elect to each branch, and for what 3 ears within the then next ensuing ten years, and the Governor shall cause the same to be published in such manner as shall be directed by law. M - I a But no amendment being proposed thereto, On motion of Mr. RANNEY, The Committee rose, and tlJ Chairman, reported thal;t the Committee had again had under consideration Report Number Ttwo, of the Ct)rnmit tee on Apportionrmenit, and had instrueted him to report the same back with sundry ame ndmnents; and then, On motion by Mr HAWKINS, The CutG ventioii adjourled. HUNDRED AND TWENTY- SEVENTHII DAY. SATURDAY, March 1, 1851. 9 O'CrLOCK, A. M. The Conventioti met pursuant to adjouriin! ent. On motion of Mr. MORRIS the Convention took up the Report No. 2 of the committee onl Apportion ment with the pending amendments. The question being on tile first amendment of the committee of the whole, to-wit: In section one in the last line of the samie. strike out tile word "from," it was agreed to. The question then being on the second amendment, to-wit: In section five in the first part of the same, strikle out the word "heretofore," and insert in lieu thereof, the word ")reviousl,," it was agreed to. The-questioMr then being on the third amendment to wit: Strik e out se cti on seven, it was. ag reed t o. The question bein g on the fourth amendment made in committee of the whole, to-wit: Strike out the word "the" where it occurs before the words "senatorial ratio," in the third line of the tditoth se ctio n of the r e'port, a nd toet insert i the place thereofi, the words, "three-fourths of a fullai." A division of the question having been demanded, Mr. STILWELL moved to amend the a men dment by striking out the words "thre e-fourths," and insertling the words "two-thirds," in their place. The question then being oa the amendment to the ametndmeiont: Mr. RANNEY. The effect of the amendment would be to destroy the contemplated proportion betweeni the two houses of tile General Assembly, inl creasing the number of the Senators, while the Repro seintatives would remain the same. I am therefore op. pesed to it. -Mr. STANTON. It seems to me that the most striking effect of the proposed amendment would be to "diminnishi the power of the small counties, and add to that of the larger. I do not wish to see that done. Like thle gentleman from Monroe, I go for sustaining he rural districts. Mr. HOLMES. I hope that it will not pass. I do not see the nece.ssity for the change in the provision reported by the committee. If the numbe,r of the Senat,rs is to be increased by a provision of this sort, we ought to do the same by the House of Representatives. Mr. BENNE''TT. It seems to me that is in some respects inconsistent with the other provisions of the bill. Mr. RANNEY. The effct of the provision will be upon the older counties, which have in a measure ceased to increase in population, aind not uptoni those that are newer and subject to a more rapid improvement. It will not affect the apportionment of the State, under the present bill, but the future ones. Mr. STII,WELL. The object of this article ought, it seems to me to be, to fix the Senatorial districts, so that if possible there shall be neither necessity nor temptation to tamper with them in future. I believe that unless it shall prevail, or something of the same character shall be adopted, the senatorial apportionment of the State will be afloat at every decennial period. Mr. MANON. I am in favor of the amendment. We have in the scheme of apportionment reported fit 767 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MAIARCH 1. i the Ilan reported by the commnittee, will -not stickle this bill made at least one district that falls in.popula-r i the plan reported by the comittee, il not stickle tion below three-fourths of the ratio that has been fixed for it with so much tenacity as to oppose any effo upon; and I1do not want to lay down for the future a! to make it better. As amended in Committee of the different rule from that which we ourselves practice Whole, the section pr)rvides that if aly district in ~~uun~~~~~~der. ~existence at any one of the decennial periods, shall fall A division having been called for, the question wa below three-fourths the ratio fixed for the apportionfirst on striking out the word "and," which prevailed. ment at that time, it shall be annihilated, and its ter The question then was upon striking out of the ritory annexed to the neighboring district having the amendment of the committee of the whole thile wor(,is snallest population. Now itrequires no great stretch "three-fourths," and itisertiug the words two, hirds" of the ituagination, to suppose that the adjoining disitn lieu of tile same. trict to which it is anl,exed, may have a population Mr. HOLMES. I hope the amendment will not of one and onle-fourth the ratio; and if such should prevail, because I am not disposed to make ameud- be the case, there being two full measures in the colineuts to the bill merely to meet the circumstances of lectie district, it woulI be entitled to two Senators certain counties. That is not the way to establish ai of course. Yet I do not see any provision for such a uniform system throughout the State. If you admit a contingency. Senator to be elected by three-fourths the ratio, why Again: Iwant this scheme, after it is perfected to not allow a member of the House by the sname rul remain in operation as long as possible; but if we And why not clihai)ge the whole plan in the same manl. shall fix upon a high fractional ratio, we may be as ner. If it is right for a nmember of the Senate, it is sured that it will be necessary to remodel it every ten yas; and unless we miake it fewer than thiree-fourths, also right for one of the other house. I cannot see year d tunh s emaieit owerthan toree-fourths any reason for such a change, and I am unwilling that stoe of te districts will have to be nnihilate d a ally thinig shall be done that shall move the city of Cll th e next decennial period. I hopetherefdrie, Mir. Presany thinati out ofg sall be done tathall move the coity of Hailton. It was id dent, that it w 11 be done. I believe that it is just; cininati out of the county of Hamiilton. It war. *aid Ibleei ilscr oeeuladuiomrp by the geoltleman from Geauga, [Mr. HITCHCOCK ] yes- believe it wl ecure a more equl and uniform red terday that the county of Hamilton by being till iln one resentation, and more than all, I believe it to be ddistrict, governs the State; an,) for this reason lie manded by considerations vital to the peace and harseems disposed to take old Haniltoni, and to sacrifice Mrnny of the commubity. her here. Our object is to estalilisli an unifori f-Mr. MANON I profess, Mr. President, to be a her here. Our object is to establish!An unliform sys,- friend to this bill; yet I (lo not claim that the comt.em, and I hope that we will not travel out of our way nittee has made i perfect. I t has doubthat less core and change it even to meet the case of the county of than aone defect; bu t a t the same time, it may be that Hamiltione. things ie c a e s im t may be that In this matter, if gentlemen desire to go into the things will be charged as imperfections that are controversy, I am ready, bled 1 declare w-ar tO the kiiit'en so ntso. controversy, I am ready, aed I declare war to the kitie And I wish to say to the gentleman from Hamilton, against any such project, whoever it may come frtom. (Mr. HoI.ds,) tlat if he wishes to bring the counity Mr. OTIS. I hope the gentlermianp from Harmiilton, [Mr. HoLMs,] will ostpone th at knife business oo his of Hamilton and the city of Cincinnati together, he [utMr. HOLMES,] Will POStph o thaeot knife busiuess of h had better say so at once, and go directly at it, and until after the tenth day of the mouth. [Laughter.] not take a round about course to secure it. Mr. President, this amendmentt oa tle getl-liaii not take around about course tosetlremit from MuPkingum, hMr. STa LWeeLL,]t WS offered yest Now there are, according to the plan of apportionterday in committee [ tel, w ofne th eswol,anont osca ment fixed by this Report, sixteen districts that fall terday in committee of the whol e, and on that occt adopts, which, under the p below% the ratio that it adopts, which, under the proP~ion received the api1)robtiiou of the gentleman from Miain [Mrr DosEY.] The ai r ule of aportmn visio ns of the Report would have to be attached to MAianii, [Mr. DORSEY.] The rule of ap~portionmenit other districts, so that, if it were carried into present fixed for the House is an arbitrary one, having ill view practice, instead of so me thi rty four or five Senators, -.', o~~~ractice, instead of Ftoiie thirty- four or five Senatoria not population merely, but municipal iterests, antid we should have eighteen or nineteen It seems to for that and other reasons it has no application to the me that w e ought not to make such rovisio for the subje(ct of Senatorial distribution. Take the rule as it future as we areught not willing to putmake inch pracovtice for the 8tandsilltamelldmentothe wmlterhslole, future, as woe are not willing to put in practice at stands in the amendment of the committee of present. The district composed of the counties ow and apply it, for instance to the county of Hamilton, Clark Champaign and Madis on, for instane now w~~~~~~~~~~~ithu Ih ciyo ili~ai n hti h os? lark, Champ~aign and Malson, for instance now without the city of Cincinna ti, and wha t i s the result? falls some three or four thousand below the ratio; and Hamilton county has 41,412 inthabitants; three-fourths, I would ask if there is any probability that within the ratio would be 42,446, so that having less than that the next ten years it will so increase in population as amount she would have no Senator. Take however,l to come up to it? If not, for the next ten years, it two-thirds the ratio, which is 37,732, and it gives her will have to be attached to the neighboring district one. It is true that Hamilton county, receiving a Seli- for the ten years to come. The counties of Knox and ator under this apportionment does not now need the Morrow have a population of 49,000-about seven application of this rule, but at somre future decennial thousand below the ratio; and cannot every man see period she or some other coutity may do so, and it is that at the end of the ten years they must bt annexby no mnans impossible that it may fall to her lot. ed? Are not Portage and Summit in the same situa It seems to me that, looking at the practical work. tion? And Medina and Lorain? Looking at the ings of the amendment, it commends itself to the ap- matter in the light of these facts, I am in favor of proval of all, and I cannot see how, in any respect it the amendment can work unequally, either in disfrancliisiug the older Mr. STANTON. It is easy to see what the gencounties or reducing their force at some future period, tieman from Lickig is at: He wants to give Lickas some gentilemen have urged, or ill operating against ing a Senator. Now sir; I am opposed to the whole the interests of the rural districts, as has been imagiti matter. If it is right to give a Senator for two-thirds ed by others. It is merely this and niothing more: The a ratio in future it is right to do so now. The effect report of the committee as amended, provides that of it will be to give the large counties al undue inwhen a coutity falls below two-thirds it shall be merg- fluence in the counsels of the State. All this comes ed in a neighboring district, this amendment secures of the attempt of the members to legislate to meet against such a merger, if it has two-thirds the ratio. particular cases and counties. If Muskingum an d Mr. RU,MPHREVILLE. It seems to me, Mr. Pros- Franklin are to have a Senator, Stark and Licking ident, that this amendment is both proper and nece — must have one also, and the result will be that the sary, and I hope that gentlemen who are in favor of exceptions will be more numerous than those that 768 OHIO COIN VENTION DEj3ATES-SATURDAY, MARCUI 1. sidered this amendment as an attack upon the cout - ty of Hamilton. I think if he had examined the subject, he would have conme to a different conclusion. Not only was there no attack meditated but none has been made. The aii)endment does not affect the apportionment provided in the bill. Its operation is only in the future. I do not understand the position of thile gentleman, (Mr. HOLMaS,) in regard to the division of Hamilton. It seems semewhat equivocal, to say the least. In looking at the Report, I find among the names of other members of the committee, one that I suppose to be his-"G. W.Holmes, Clairman." The Report divides Hamnilton county, and he went for it; —he gave it his name, and it appears under his auspices. Yet that gentleman, (Mr. HOIMss,) declares war to the knife against those who shall attempt to divide Hamilton county. The gentlemyiani, (.Mr. HOLMEs,) complains of my amen~dnent because, lie says, it! is disproportionate He does not appear to have had any objections to giving a representative to a county with but half the ratio; but he cannot see the justice of giving a Senator to a district that has tw(o-thirds. The gentleman from Logan, (Mr. STANTON,) looks upon this amentdment as the i nitiatory step of a plan to give to the counties of Mltskingum and Franklin each an additional Senator. Now I never heard any thing of the kind. T Themotion was msy own, mai e without any such i nt ention, and without any bearing upon such a plan as he s pea ks of, as it waould neither affect in one way or the other. I trust therefore, that he will withdraw his imputation. I do intend at the proper time and place to offer an amendment to give Muskingum and Franklin each an additional Senator, and I intend to do it openly. I have made no concealment of my intention, and never intended it as a covert measure. Mr. RANNEY. At the close of the first decennial period, the ratio, which for present purposes is fixed at about fifty six thousal(d, will be raised in proportion to the increase in the population of the State. By the provision as it now stands, any district of the whole thirty-five, into which the State is divided, if its pop. ulation shall fall below the ratio then fixe?. will be blotted out. I do not mvself see whxy it is uot just as like. ly that one half the districts will fall below the rationas that the other half will rise above it; and I do not see but it will be just as likely that the Senate will be reduced to one halftlhe regular members, as that more than half will be continued. It would seem as if there was a necessity for some alteration; and what is to be done. I do not want to destroy the system that has been prepared with so much care, and upon which 1o much labor has been bestowed. Take the cases of the counties of Lorain and Medinia, with a population of fifty thousand. They have less than ihe ratio but uinder the provisions of this bill are entitled to a Senator. Suppose those counties do not increase in population during the next ten years; but the State, in the mean time increases, and the ratio is raised to seventy-fivb thousand. Suppos, three fourths the ratio were reqtiired in order to entitle the district to a representation. Three fourths of seventy-five is fifty six thIousand, and the district not having that aggregate would be stricken o~ut. If it was two-thirds, the result woutd be fifty thousand, and the district would remain. The question is, h,ow low will you permit the district* to ,omne, rather than to destroy them. Now we hate been exceedin~gly liberal ill regard to representation in the lower house. Counties that have hulf tiie ratio are permitted a representative, and it is only those that fadl below one half that are annex,ed. I propose that the S~enate shall be treated in the samne way, and that un less the districts fall below two thirds they shall not come- under the rule. I su bmi t tha t it will not do to legislate in reference to parti cular cases. I oi e t Mr. HAWKINS. I desire as fully as-possible, to understan d th e provisio ns of the bill, and what the effe ct of thos e pr ov isions will be, an d then I am prepared to vote upon it. As I understand t he section as reported, whenever a district falls below the ratio, it is t o be an nexed to another. Now suppose the other is alread y s o far above that both together they make twice the ratio-what then? Mr. HOLMES. Such an occurrence may, I admit, be possible, but it is not at all probable. If it was probable to arise, something should be don e to meet it. Mr. HAWKINS. I wa n t to know what would be don e i n such a case. Would the two Senators be jointl aney elected by the tw o counties, or would some division o f t er or eae the territory be made other than by county line? Mr. OTIS. It seems to m e th at such a contingency i cas that supposed by the gentleman from Morgan, (Mr. HAWKIlNS,) could never take place. Mr. HAWKINS. Why not? Mr. OTIS. In nakiinig up thi s Rep ort, the cormmittee divided th e w hol e popul ation of the Stat e by thirty-five-the number of tSe nators, to form a ra tio. This ratio they applied to the territory of the State, subdivi ded as it is, in to municipal divisionas, and the object was or should have been, without interf er ing wit h the municipal divisions, to make the districts as anearly uniform in p opulation as possible. The objec t in fu ture is to preserve or increase the equality of the se dis tribu tions. N ow anoth er element ill t his c alculation must be looked at. In the cours e of coming time, the population of the State l ir as th e a o will increase the raootion will increase in roportion regularly, whil e the districts and counties wil increase also i n population, but irregularly as compared with each other. If the increase in the population of all parts of the State could be equalized, a rigid rule might be made, which operating well at first, would con tinu e t d o do so and justice to every section wo uld be self-acting and exact. But such a result we cannot calculate upon; and instead of a rigid and iron rule, th e true wisdom would be to fix one somewhat flexible, wh ich while it is stable enough t o prearve the principle, advnits of sufficient variatio n t o meet the fact. t This is the objec t of the amendment -which I ho p e will prevail. If the gentleman from Msorgan, (or. HAWKINS,) Will l ook at the districts as they are formed, he will find that that which is composed of the counties of Muskingum and Perirv ha s the largest population of ani in the State, to xvit:-65,827. In all probability, with the present ratio, its population will so ineredase that wh eth er the second Sen ator w ere elect ed f or two-thirds or three-fourths the ratio, they will gain it. But take from its population the ratio-56,598, and you leave 9.229 of its population unrepresented at every session of the legislattire, —multiply that suim by five -the number of sessions in eatch decennial period, and the result is 45,-95 voters not represented in the ten years —more than two-thirds or thrce-fourths of the ratio. In other districts however, the surplus will fall below, and it is for such cases that the amendment is m~oved. Mr. HOLMES. The proposition is simnplyf whether a Senator shall be given for two-thirds or threefourthls the constitutional ratio, to those counties that would otherwise have to be absorbed. Mr. HIAW~KIN!S. Or the original Report, which required a whole one. Mr. STILWELL. The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. HoLes,) made a remnark indicating that he con 769 OHIO CONVENTrION DEBATES-SATU%RDAY, MARCH I reasons that governed my action, and in reply to the remai,trks of the gentlemain from Geauga. I have not sa-d(1 tlihatt 1 would discourage party spir. it in this assemblv, and I will not do so. I will sup port my party here as I would iil the General Asseina bly or in anv other body. Gentlente,n talk of party action and party measures There are none who are more prone to support their party doctrines and their party measures than the wil igs in this body. I do not blamrne them for it. What I coiplalin of in them is that they say they do niot do it. Tile Proposition of the gentleman from Muskin gum, for instance, is wvell calculated to support and sectioial and party interests. The clear duty of this convention in making an ap portionmeat isto express the entirerights o f the peopleof Ohio-(jf that body that bears the burden of the government. When that lheas been done their friends will Loave a majority in tie representative body. If the whigs are a majority in the State, it is our duty to give them amajority in ithe Legislature-if the democrats, to give thtiem a majority. I want to hear nothing more about this matter of no party, and when I hear it fromi gentlemten upon this side, I fear that they have no regard for the doctrines of democracy; and when I hear it from the whigs, I know that something is y hinid, that soie movement is to be made for the pur pose of catching democratic votes. Mr. BENNETT. Gentlemen appear to be opposed to every movemenlt that is made to correct the principles or the provisionsof this report. Why is this? Admitting the general doctrine that everything of human constructionti is imperfect, they must, at least, allow that it is possible to make it better than it is. Let uaS tlook at the provisions of the bill, a moment. There are some thirteen districts now established lthat fall be low the ratio, in )opuilation, and they have each a Sena ator awarded to them. I do not complain of this; but let us look forward a little. Suppose that these do not increase in nu naerical force any faster for ten years to come (for it will ilot do for them to increase just as fast,) the result will be that at the next decennial period, whatever the ratio may be, they will all fall below it, ind be annihilated. There are, as I said, some thirteen or fourteen now established, which by that process, will be annilhilated as districts, antd their territory will be annexed to that which is contiguous. Now it will often happen that by aggregating disiricets in this manner, a population will be accumulated sufficient to entitle the district so increased, to two Sen)ators; and it must have two Sena!ors or a fraction as large asthe ra tio, and perhaps larger wili be disfradnciiised; for I take it the Legislature under this article will have nothing to do with creating ne;w districts, but only with rem ulating those that we create. It would seem asifit were our duty to furnish a remedy for v-hat appears to me to be a w-ry serious difficulty. Mr. CHAMBERS. The Convention is well aware that I have said less in this body than in any other public assembly with which I was ever connected. One reason for this has been that there are in this Convention a large nunmber of able aid learned men, wnaho are as well or better qualified to introduce and advocate original measures than myself. Another reason hsas been, that the whigs are in a minzor:itay here, and unable of course, to carry any measure of 'their ownl, and under the circumstances it is our duty to throw the responsibility ulpon the other side, Allure the power is deposited. Our duty is to guard, as far as possible, the intere sts of our aonstltlents, and v wen we have done that we have performed all that can be expected of us. Bult when the gentleman kom iKnox, -[1Ur. MITCHELL*,] because we-th~us enldeavor to I eeure an equal representation for: all parts of t be annihilated. There aret somne counties in the State that beitng settled will grow far less rapidly than heretofore, while-there are others which wiii increase with speed for years to cone;,and I tl;itik the old counties, takinig all things into consideration, are entitled to no little forbearance from the new. Mr. MITCHELL. I desire to call attention to one fact: EvEry a lteration of th is report in thi s' part, will induce the necessity for at alteration, all through; and it seems asif thlere was a determinati on asmag geaitlemen uponi the oth er side to b egin h ere for the purpose of even t uatlly breaking d own the system, that they may introduc oe one oe u-eir o wn Ncaw I would like to have gentlemsn on the other side, when they have got theim frojectsIfixed to submit them at once. Let us know what the y are, that we may se e what we have to encounter. Don't attack dis from behind the bush. S eve ral gatltrtemen haveprojects-the gentleman fromn Logan, (Mr. STANTON) has one —the gentleman from Muskingtum, (Mr. STILWEI,L., has seen it. Mr. STILWELL. I have never seen it. Mr. MITCHELL. This report has been considered with the u tmost care amnd inaustry by the committee.. It has been mn onths i prepartstiow. Every change in this place wi!l induce the necessity for a change all t!irougl,. Mr. HITCHC OCK. Rea lly the gentleman from Kn ox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) has very strong smelling facnities. A whig cannot initroduc6e the simplest proposition by way of all amendf.in*nt, but the gentleman smells sornetfiuig behind it. If he judges the whigs by himself, I do not know but he coynes to a correct conIclusion, for I do not believe he has taken a single step but with a direct view to operate against the whigs. Mr. MITCHELL. I will tell the gentleman, (Mr. HiTCrlCOC,K) what my principles are at the proper time Mr. IIHITCHCOCK. If the gentleman, (iMr. MITCHIrLL,) should set out and detail ink principles truly, he would not fined h,alf a dozen members of this couvenlion that w, hid agree with him. This proposition, whatever may be the opinion of the gentleman is intended to be fair, and the gentleInan from Miami, (.Mr. DoAsEt,) assented to it yesterday, as proper to carry out the principles ofthe report. The only objection Of the gentleman from Knox is that the whig, are in favor of it. -That may be a good and sufficient reason for him, but I trust that in general it will be otherwise. Mr. MITCHELL. I will ask the gentleman from 'Maskit~gum, if he has not a plan for giving-the counties of Franklin and Muskitigam one -ienator each? Mr. ST[LWTELL. I stated in my remarks this morning, that I intended to make suchsa motion. I doaintend to do so atthe proper time. Mr. MITCHELL The gentleman, ( Mr. STIL. WELL,) stated that he had no plan Mr. STILWELL. I had none-I have no general plan. Mr. MITCHELL. I wil, as I intimated to the gentleman from Geauga, (Mr. HITCrCOCK,) thatt would state the principles that have governed "nv action in thiy body. I believe, Mr. President, that the doctrines of democracy are right. I glory in that belief. I glory Sir — -MFr. H1ORTON. I rise, Mr. President, to a point of order. Th~e doctrines or the de;so0cratic party arenot now uueder cons1deratioul. The PREtSID)EN~T. The question is on the amend, ment of the genitlerenu from Musk ingum, to the amend. ment of tile com~mittee, to wit: strike oet three. fou~rths! and insert; two-thirds. Gen!atlmenl will please to CO1- I fine their rem1airks to the question. -~ Mr. MIT;CHELL.; I ~was mxerely explaining they 77,0 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCH 1. State, charges as with being hypocrites, and calls us Greeks, I have no reply to make, but to say that I despise him for tihe charge. When that gentleman renders himself ridiculous by making a personal at tack on me, I can laugh him to scorn. But, when he makes a charge of want of good faith, and hypocrisy against the entire representation of the whig party, who represent at least a moiety and avery respectablei portion of the people of this State, I cannot but re pel such insinuations with indignant scorn. And what is it that has begot all this jealousy? What is the cause that has induced the gentleman to sound the alarm to his democratic friends, and to fulminate this new discharge of his wordy artillery. It is this: My colleaglue, [Mr. STILWELL,] has intimated his intention to introduce an amendment to this apportionment, which in itself is so unfair, that we could not, by any means, submit to it. Here we have the county of Mulskingum attached to the county of Perry, thus giving it the largest population of any Senatorial district in the State. Why is this? Muskinguin is amrnolig the largest counties in the State there being but two others of a larger population, to wit: Hamilton and Cuyahoga. Muskingim isgrouped with Perry with a joint population of 65,827. Muskingum county alone has a population of 45,t;53, and from her prospective increase of population, IS now entitled to a Senator independent of Perry, if the county of Hamilton, [exclusive of the city,] be entitled to a Senator with a population of only 41,412. If we even throw out an intimation of a desire to relieve ourselves of this burden and embarrassmeiint, we are charged with dishonesty and injustice, are called hypocrites and Greeks, and the tocsin of the gentleman from Knox, [MIr. MITCHELL,] is solmnely s o u n d e d, to give notice to the democrats throughout t h e world that the minority of this Convention are about to waylay, entrap, cheat and overthrow the nmajority; and that the only way in which it can be avoided is to shut their ears entirely'to any reason, argument, suggestion or appeal that may come from this side of the house. The gentleman, [Mr. M.TCHELL,] says that the deinocracy is always right. It may be that democratic principles are right; but admitting that theiy are, it is necessary to prove that he is the emnbodimnent of democratic principles before his opinion canll be received as infallible. I would ask if the democracy were right in their apportionment law of 1836, when with about 6000 votes they gave the old county of MuskIcingum one representative, a nd the county of Perrv, with about 3000o two representatives? Was that hlonest-was that righit? Perhaps the gentlemani from i Knox might have thought so, seeimg t tlat particular period aln UInited States Senator had to be elected, and tris very movement ensured the election of a derocratic United States Senator. Inl the p resence of this Cotiventioe, I pronounce that apportionment to have been one of the mostly rascally, and unjust measures, ever concocted or carried out by any political party. There is one feature of this report that deserves a word of special notice. It is signed by every democratic member of the committee, and by not another member of the whig party. The dose that was as a whole, too strong for any but democratic stomachs to swallow. The gentleman from Knox, [Mr. MiTCHnLL,] might perhaps find in this a strong evidence of its excellence, and of the pureness of its democracy; for that genitleman seems to estimate the excellence of the principles he advocates precisely in proportion as they are hated by those opposed to his views, and is not contented t'o enjoy his garbage alone, but must be holding it up to the nostrils of those who have no 50 taste for the repast. But the fact that I have alluded to is ait least as worthy of consideration by the whins, as the gentleman's signs and wond(ers are by his pc. litical friends; and if it means nothing else, it meatns emphatically, t hat we have no favors to expect. Mr. HORTON. If T have ar ight understandin g of the provisions of this apportiotnent scheme, there will be, during the first decade of years, a Senate com p)osed of thirty-five members; and if I understand thy effect of the amiiendIment of the gentleman from Muskingum, (Mr. STILWFEI.L) the numiber for the next tea years, under its operation would be about the same. I observed yesterday to the gentleman from Miami, (Mr. DoaszY,) that such would be the result, and he acceded to the proposition. It is incomprehensible to me why the gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. HOLMFS,) is opposed to this amendment. It takes no effect uponi the apportionment of the next ten years, but as far as possible secures the same for tie succeedingten. 1 lope the amendmxient will be adopted. Its tendency will nertainly be to render tie workings of the system afte186(0, farmore complete and equal. So far from militatingagainst thie tundamental idea upon which the plan is built, it aids to carry it out. If I arn correct in this opinion, I cannot understand why the gentlemen fronm Hamilton end Knox oopose the amendment. It must be because they do not understand it. I hope ill conclusion that the gentleman from Knox will not find it necessary to accuse, me of any sitnister or covert design regarding my own county or those that lie around it; for I can assure him, upon my honor, that it is Aot probable that either of them will be at all affected by the provisions of the report, whether amended or not. Mr. HOLMES. I did not fully apprehend the force of the amendment, when it was offered. Understanding it better, I am constrained to withdraw my objections to it. Mr. DORSEY. I prefer the amendmen t of the committee to that of the gentleman from Muskingum, for this reason-there are no thirds in any other part of the report, and to introduce them here would b in — congruous. The question being on the amendment to theameudmient: Mr. HAWKINS demanded the yeas and nays which were ordered and resulted, yeas 44, nays 48, - follows: YEAs-Messrs, Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery Bat-s, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers. Collings. look. Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray. Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Haw);ins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, ltumphreville, Hunter, Johnson, Jones,Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, ganney, lftiddle, Roll, Smith of Highland. Stanbery, Stilwell, Willians, Woodbury and Worthinigton-44. .NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Curry,Dorsey. Farr, Forbes, Greene of Deftanoe,Gregg, Groei. beck, Henderson, Holt. Hootnian, Huntt, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley. Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers Stantotn. St ebbin s, Stickney Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Staxit, T:,wnshend. Warren, Way, Wilson and Presklent-48. So the amendment was rejected. The question then being on inserting the words "'three fourths of a-lull"; it was agreed to. The question then being on the fifth amendme nt, ta. wit: Strike outsection 11; it was agreed lo The question then being on the sixth amendment to, wit: Add at the end of section 12, the following, words "and all territory belonging to a county at the, time of apportionment shall as to the right of representation and suffrage remain an integral part thertof, during the decennial period"; which was agreed to. Mr. SAWYER moved further to amend the- bi'q I i I 771 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MVRCH 1. tunder consideration, by striking out section six, majority of cases that come up before the General which is as follows: Assembly, the delegates from the county of Hamilton "Any county having within its limits a city or corporate have given a solid undivided vote. Divide the couIntown with a nunmber of inhabitants equal to a whole ratio, ty from the city, and it will be found that the memit. any decennial period. and still leaving in the county a hers will he as likely to differ in opinion, as those population equal to a whole ratio, at such decennial period who represent the different counties of Champaign such city or corporate town shall be entitled to a separate who represent the different counties of Champaign r presentation, to be determined as herein provided." and Guernsey. It would give to each its proper And also to strike out in the ninth section the words: weight in the Legislature. Because the city of Cin and for separating cities and corporate towns from cinnati is a great city, it is not right that it should their respective counties." so use its greatness as to stifle the voice of other Mr. SAWYE!I. This amendment must be made portions of the State; and it is still less right to aid in order to render the report at all tolerable to me. its ambition by enabling it not only to consolidate Let us have all single districts at once, or else let us its own vote, but to add to it the strength of a large leave counties undivided. I will not vote for the and populous county. I believe that it is perfectly 1,ill as it now stands, no way you can fix it, and if right, just, and equitable to divide this or any other this motion does not succeed, I will go in for a gen- part of the State, and so believing, I shall vote eral system of single districts throughout the State. against striking oui. Mr. LARWILL. I hope the section will be strick- Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. If there were to be en out. If there is anything upon which I feel my- no0 other divisions of the territory of the State, for self instructed by my constituents it is upon this legislative purposes, I should have no great objection po,int. It would, if put into practice introduce dis- to striking out, but I hope that we shall not come to cord into every township in the county that was di- the conclusion to make no10 more subdivisions tuntil vided. There must be no more attempts to divide the people call for such a conclusion, and I know no c,unties-no more removal of the old ramparts-no part of the State where they have done so, except in the ilnore gerrymandering, jugglilng, or trickery. It is county of Wayne, whose representative, [Mr. LAtrue that if the plan is once permitted, it may be WILL,] looks upon himself as specially instructed used by both parties, and will be as likely to be used upon this point. In mny opinion, there was no one ftr the profit of the one as the other; but I do not thing that was so generally demanded by the people, wish to see the temptation placed before either. What- and it was advocated in the democratic organ of the *,vermavbethepracticeintheStateofNewYork,Ihave State as warmly as by any one. But the times have no desire to see it introduced in Ohio; and I must changed, and it is said minen change with them; it tee permitted to say that I cannot give my vote for seems so, at least, in this case. And why is it? Gentiis report. tlemen suppose that by keepi ng the city of Cincin Mr. TAYLOR moved to amend the motion to strike nati united to the county of Hamilton, there will be fout section six, by inserting in the place of the same, lodged there a power that will control the destinies of when it should be stricken out, the following: the State; and gentlemrnen seem to be willing to keep "Sec. 6. Whenever at a regular decennial period, a county the State under this kind of guardianship, provided isentitled to two or more representatives the trustees of the that at the same time their party may retain the po'~ wnships, and the common council of every ircorporated litical supremacy. oily. or town in the county, (not exceeding three representa. Mr. SAWYER. I do not seek such a result. lives of each Ward therein,) shall axscmible at such time as Mr. HITCIICOCK of Geaiga. No; the gentler nmay be prescribed by law, and divide their respe. tive c,Gun - ties into representative districts, equal to ihe number of [Mr. SAWYER] does not seek it-that is not necessary. members to which such counties mayv be enlitled, and shall He knows, however, that such will be the effect of the cause to be filre I in the offices of the Secretary of State, and' measure. He knows that it has been so. Now, what ihe clerks of their espective counties. a description of such are the facts, as shown by the action of this bod representative,listricts,specifying the number of e tch district are te facts, as shown by the action of this body? ant ihe populalion thereof accoidinz to the lasL preceding When a proposition to divide the State into single enumeration. EBach representative district shall contain, as districts was up, the six members from the county of lear as may be, an equal n umb er of inhabitants, and shall Hamilton voted against it. Deduct those six vote% cansist of convenient and conti, ous terrilorj,l u;i no town- and the voice of the Convention would have been in ship or Ward shall be divided, in the folmation of Repr(. a th e ofte m ratative distr'icts" 9 Imitative distr icts 9favor of the principle. The question then being upon striking out section Mr. President, [ do not want, as I said, to retain six,.this section, unless we can go further. I like the pro Mr. LAWRENCE. As a member of the committee position of the gentleman froml Erie better, but I do lthat made this report, and a friend of the provisions notthink that that goes quite far enough. If the secof the section proposed to be stricken out, I desire to tion is stricken out, I shall go for the amendment of say a word or two. In the committee I urged the that gentleman, or something like it; and I will now a(dopittionof,eecin and gave at length the raread for information, one that I have myself drawn up. ;opinof the section, and gave at length the Ita is asflos rsns for the opinion I had formed-one or two of It is as follows: which I desire to notice. Sec. 6. The representatives provided for in the second and It is very readily to be conceived that there may be third sections of this article, shall at all times be elected ia ant that, in general, there must be, distinct and sep- single representative districts. aorate interests betneenl t the cit bn he codintinc and The trustees of the several townships in such counties of ,-rate interests between the city and the county, and the State as are. or may be entitled at the first election ui der the division would in most cases be as favorable to the Constitution to more than one representative, and if in the one as to the other. The rural districts have an any of said counties there shall be an incorporated town or interest of their owii to defend, and it is proper that city the representatives of the several Wards of said city or shoud hve he est ossblefaclitis fr dingtown in the common council of the same, shall assemble' at they should have thebest possible facilities for doing the seat of justice of their respective counties, on the first so. So the cities have their commercial and mann- Tuesday of August next, and the trustees of townships, or facturing interests —their corporate and municipal trustees of townships and representatives of Wards, as the affairs to uphold-matters that can scarcely be apple- case may be, shall divide their respective counties into re ciate bult by a resident within their borders. resentative districts equal in number to the number of rep. ciated but by a resentatlves, to which such counties are or may be entitled There i: another and a controlling reason which at the first election under the Constitution, and shall cause has had an influence upon my opinion. I wish, as to be filed in the office of the Secretary of State, and of the far as possible, to give to the counties a protection Clerks of the Courts of Common Pleas, of their respective agaistthe influence of cities.Iknowthatinacounties, a de scription of such representative districts, spec. against heinfluneociies nwtat naiig the' number of each district, and the' populationa therl0 772 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCef 1. as influence of the counlty of Hanmilton, and the city of nt Cincinati. Now,I have far less fears of the county of rd Hamilton in this respect, than I have of Western Re n- serve. Large cities are far less likely to come under r the influenices of the Whigs than the country, and it is ad our duty to keep the city and county together, in or der to counteract the strong aristocratic iifluences that er grow up in large cities anld towns. It is a democratic ~e doctrinefi, and as such I am bound to support it. le Mr. GREEN of Ross. I had hoped, Mr. President n- that the proposal which I made to the gentleman front he Auglaize, (Mr SAWYER,) would be concurred in, and t hat taie proposition would be brought into sulch a to shape that we could vote directly up)o0I the question. es I shall therefore be forced to vote against striking out. n- If I had the assurance that when the section is stricken eo out, the amendment would be adopted. I should do Y otherwise. to The question then being an striking out section n six. n Mr. SAWYER demanded the veas and nays, were al ordered, and resulted yeas 49, navs 40, as follows: a YE,s-Ma,srs.Blair,Cahill,Chaiiev,Clark Curry.Ewin,Farr, er Forbes, Greene )I Deiance, Gregg G oesheck Holmes, Holt. Hasteraein, Heft, Jodi,es, Kintg. Kqak wood, Larwill, Leech, Lead better, L'(ey, Lltiol, Mitchell No rris, Orton, Patterson, Alig. ley,Raitney, Riet olinv, R,dl'e. Ro 1. Sawyver, S,oit of Aualaizc, Sellers. Staitto,, Siiteh ies, Siike Stider,.Stuble, Swan, In Swif,'Taylor, T.-omipson of Stark, Towinshend, Warren, Way, Wilson anal Pr-esiden,t-49: TNAYs-Messrs. Ba,hee, Barnet of Mi(tzomnery, Bates Ben nett, Bli keisi(erter,Brown iiof Athens, B'owiitofCarroli, ChainiT- bers, Colliigs, Cook. Ewart, Fioretnce, Gillet', Graham, G a:, it GCee;l of Ross, Hat, iltion, Harlan, Hawvki,is; Henderson, titrct- ocock of Geai,i,a, Ho,ltoi, H,olter, Jollh)Don, L'rsh, Masol, Moreh(ad, Morlis, M.- Cloud, Nash. Otis, Pe -k, P rkius, Scoit of Hairisoi, Smiith of Highlatd, Stanbery, Stilwell, Williams, Wortliington alul Woodibury-40. So the sixth section was stricken out. r hMr TAYLOR, then asked and obtained leave to withdraw his ameiPndtmient. - Mr. HITCHCOCK, moved (hat the section whiei the had previously read, be inserted in the place of the section that had been stricken out. The question then being on the motion of Mr. -HITCHCOCK: Mr. REEMELIN moved to amend thesection offerT S ed bv Mr. HI'TcncoCK, by striking out ths words,-. [l "during the first decennial period"-which was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the section as amended: e Mr. DORSEY. I hope this motion will linotprevail, g If it should, we might as well throw away the whole r report at oice, for its whole excellence will be des troyed The feature to which, more than any other, I t have been attached, is its power of self regulation. f Take that away and all the abuses that have existed * under the old system will return, and the changes that take place will always be made under the operation of t political motives. It will make 110no difference whether the apportionment is made by the General Assembly or by boards of Comrnmissioners of counties and-counI ecilmen of cities For my own part, if there is to be a system of Gerrymandering, I had rather it would be done by one than by eighty seven different bodies. 1 atn thererefore opposed to the propositioni and hope it will be voted down. Mr. RANNEY. If i understand this proposition, it is the worst that has been offired —worse even than that presented by the gentleman from Ross. If I tunderstand it, it requires of every county that has more than one member of the Legislature to elect, to a~semble its trustees and councilmei, and make a division of the county for the purpose. The thing involves an absurdity in principle. For instance: A countv is enotitled during the greater share of the deceal al of, according to the last preceding United States census, near as can be ascertained. :Each representative district shall consist of convenie~ and contiguous territory, bounded by towu.hip or Wa] lines, and shall contain as nearly as may be, an equal nut ber of inhabitants. But. for the formation of such districts. no township 'Ward lines shall be divided, nor shall any district be change or altered during the decennial period. If at any time during the first decennial term, the numb of representatives shall be increased or diminished in cons quence of the provisions of the third section of this artiel the trustees of townships and representatives of Wards i such counties, t.ie representation of which shall be so i] creased or diminished, shall convene as aforesaid, on t~ first Tuesday of August, next preceding the election at whit such increase or dimin ution shall take place, and shall divid their respective counties into districts equal in numbert the number of representatives to be elected in said countie upon the same principles, and in the same manner herei~ before prescribed; which districts shall remain unchanged E long as the representation of the counties affected thereb shall remain the same. -In all cases where any county or counties are entitled t but one representative, such representative shall be chose by the electors of such county or counties at large. At all subsequent apportionments for representatives i the General Asseribly under this Constitution, the severa counrties in the S tate entitled to more than one represents tive, shall be divided into single districts in the same i-tanne as hereinbefore described. The PRESIDENT. The question is upon strikin out section six. Mr. STANTON. Whatis the state of the questioc in regard to the am medment s t hat have been offered? The PRESIDENT. The ge ntleman fro m Erie, [Mi TAYLOr,] has s ubmitted a proposition, which h e wish es to substitute in the place of the sect ion, in case i shall be stricken out, and the gentleman from Geau ga has read another for information, with the sam object. Mr. STANTON. I wish the gentleman from Ge auga would offer his as an amendment to the word proposed to be stricken out. If it should be adopted the first part of the section may afterwards be strick en out, if gentlemen desire it. Mr. HITCHffCOCK. I have no objection to tha course. Mr. MITCHELL. Mr. President, what is the ques tion? ~ The PRESIDENT. The question is upon strikin~ out section six. If section six should be stricke out, the motion of the gentleman from Erie is in or der. Mr. MORRIS. Question. Mr. TAYLOR. Iread for the information of the convention, in the course of my remarks last evening the project that I have now offered as a substitute for the section proposed to be stricken out. IThose'who attended to its reading on that occasion wil observe thia I have omitted a proviso which then formed a part of it, in regard to the disposition of fractional floats. In its general character, the proiect of the gentleman from Geauga, (Mr. HITCHCOCK,) is similar to mine It provides for a division of the counties by a board of commissioners, at each decennial period, and when there are floats the same board shall be assembled and shall make the proper distribution. I wish also to say that when it can be done, and whe,n the question really comes up for consideration, I am willing to withdraw my amendment in favor of that of the gentleman from Geauga. It is drawn more minutely, and more in accordance with legal phraseology, and presents my owns views in a more satisfactory manlner than my own. Mr. LARWILL. I wish to say a few Words in reply to the remarks of the gentleman from Geauga, (Mr. H~TcHCOCK.) My opinions of the views of the democracy of the State of Ohio, uponl this subject are not confined to the county of Wayne, by any means, Gentlemen trelk or their fears of the o;e~rshaalowzij 773 to De (alI!uinue U,.,tJ "ii "-.-,I.,,4..'.. wish to rule, would malke this one of the mllost corrupt but one duty to perfortn. It may be seventy-ilive or bodies tlhat could possii)ly be assemtbl(ed. one hrnidred in nitmber, and it,nay not be half that Now, i never heard that there was any demand for It is of no earthly colsequence. it will b-e a popular thi, cettitng up of territorv; and if there is one seII- board, elected by the people-representing tlie rights timn,eut in ithe State that is universal in one party, of the people, and I ami certain that there can be ia and iinearly so iiin the other, it is igainst thllis splittinlg no respect a better tribuntal for the perforianee of tlihe up of counties. It was once tried in the General As- duties that will be required. fsetnbly tand the result was a conimotion, and nearly The qunestion then being oli the anmendnent of Mr. a revolution; and so great w-ivs the political indigtia- IITCHCOCK, tio n upon the subject, that the Legislature was loriced Mr. CIHAMBERS moved that the Convention adto retta.ie its step. I saiv, therefore, if there is such ourti. a demand, I -iever heard of it.'Upon which xmotion, 3lr. MANONT. So far as I know, the people of the Mr. MANON demanded the yeas aud nays, which counlt.y I represent are opposed to any subeivision of were ordered, aind resulted-yeas 20, nays 69, as folcounties. I have been figuring a little as to the cost lows: of oine of the(se aseibies, and(l fineld tllat it -oulll Yb M9rS. Barbee, Blictiensderfer. Brown o carrit, cost teii of ttlv tndr d a it si dollr Chaners, Grtsbeck, Holt, Ioituiau, itl Jones, Larsi,s the t~(lv itundivd iid oinetvLixdoiin l,awrenice,Leech,Leadbetter, Lid,y. 3I~o:ris,Noris,Stickney., to divide Lickring county. Stidger Williains and Worthinigton —20. Again. We ei+et the trustees of our townships NAY. —Messr. Alidlews, itrnet of Iontgomery Btes -'lt ri B'~eninett, Blair, B,'owt, or VAthens, Cahill, Clark, Coltin-~ now wwithont,rlli regeat-d o their politics, endeavor. (,oOt., Curry, )orsey, wart,i, E ig, Farr, Florence orbe., mig oily t, gelt, good meni; but if this plan sloruld be (Gillett Greee of 1)D iane, Greei{ of }oss, Gte~g, Hamil intro(duced, it, Ywould briinr the strife and contention ton, HIarlai, Hawlins.. i'etderson, HitchOck of (Geauao Hol;mies, Hort(;n. Haunter, JOhnSotins, ing, Kirliwootl, Lar. of' a polition ito eot very little (,aiiva.s tl,,at i will, Loudonton ti, Mason, Mitcell, Moreheid, McClo ud, takes plac e for lhe election of a township trustee. It I alsh, Orton. Otis, Patterson, Peck, Peikins, Quigley, Ransees ti e l-at thle proiposi:ion is one of tie mo:s., tjey, Rteecli, ii, Roll, Sawyer, o;rott of Auglaize, ridiculous atd absurd ideas ever intr,duci,d into Seters,.Smit!h of Htigihland, Stanbery, tanton. $tebbil this a-snlmbly. I do not,know wbhat other;,e title l, h,trtible, vwft, rdytor Ihompsonofta lo ai bd,Wre,Way, Wilson, Woodbury aiid Presictenti-6 men thiulk, bitt I am sulre thaltt I want no Genrerl' the tneit t Witson, Vooebuty sod Prertdael threat:,f b1 )iut -,iiiic tral,wl enl(c.tt n the mt,ion to madjou rn wa. rejected A iiyl-of me"(1 (iot- tb,-t On niotioiti of Mr. HOLMES, thie niumbr tat Sw:muld h..ave,) to meet in rioiycounty n, tie L tiiimtirli'tI0sol l)ve to iet nmycut iThe Coinvention took a recess. tbr aitv suhi pm uroe ir. T AtYLOIR. Tl geitlean from Miami, [Mr. Doasi,] says tlat thi p oposition will interfere with tle otlher features f - li(' report. It will not interfere, oLOi i with it. It is:i anioeimnut, and will early themn out The question pending being on agreein, to the mnore fully.' TI geintle man from Trunibull, [Mr. amendmenlt proposed by Mr. HlITCICOCI( of Ge RANNE~,] ha3 l anoie ontection. IIe tells u1 of cabals anga: iii towi:,blips d warid s tIo (lis,pose of this miIerelv Oo motion of Mr. HOLAiES, a call of the Coniven local quesliont. \Tow, }Ir. Preside(nt, tl report neces. tion was ordered, and Messri. Andrews, Arcibold, sarity gives all the Reprisentatives of a couitity to thel Barnett of Preble, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Case of 0sa0e )oiiti( l aty. he e f.et of aie anidmrit LickinG, Clark, Curry, Cutler, GrahaCm, (-,!ra rs wvil be to relieve 1he strio;'e'iev of this rule.,The beck 1Hardl, Hitchcock of Ctuyalhoga, I-Holt,' Kennon, g ltlwai att~t. to05 () (1 1, 1(1ici otis p~ict ote of the LoM7den, Morris, McCormick, Nal l, to -ris, Rtanney (cog i, (s he I it,) that Vill a:isel le to divide 1 eemelin,St-,atotr,Smitlh of WvandotStidger, rlThomn a. )ou}tity into) districts, anod speaks of the corruption s,on of Shelbv, Vance of Butler, Vance of Champaigan that will reign antd revel there. I wish to point that Williatos ana Woodbury were found absent. gentlemali lo anot,'r clqit-e-anotlier cabal existing On iinotion, Messrs. Case of Hocking, Case of Lick undxelr ttie pne'sent sytC.Oem, and with wlose chicanery ig, lard, Kennon, MCo rmick, Snith of Wyaidot and coruptit(it Lte ay-l have had a sliglit acuain,t- and Stidger were severally excused. once. I refer to the court-house cli.que, devised to On motion of Mr. LARWILL, the doors were cloa OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, MAtci 3. 775 e finance and taxation. All these will require more or less time. There is also the resolution up)on the subr ject of a bureau of statistics, which will cost some lapbor. Now sir, I cannot indulge inI the iien that this session is to continue after this d(lay we- -, for if it .- should. we may be aesured that we shall be without a quorum; and if we exp.ct to get though it is absolute ly necessary that some such resolutionl be adec1ted. The question then ljeiing on the adoption of the res. olutioti: Mr. HOLT moved the previous question. The questionl then being "shall the main question be now put;" it was agreed to. , The question then being on the adoption of the r-sL olutioni, it was atgreed to. t On motioI of Mr. LAWRENCE the convention took up the report of the committee onl the subject of Tetnlperance. i' On motion of the same gentleman, the report was ; comritted to a commyiitiee of the whole convention. O il motion of Mr. LARStI, the c onvention took up t the resolution submritted by himself some days since , proposing to submit to the people thI new constitution for adoption or rejection oun the 4th day of July. On motion of the same geutlet oaii, the resolution was referred to to the select committee "on the sched *ule"g Mr. RANN EY moved that the report of the commit tee (on the al)portionment be taken up; Which was agreed to. Th,Ti question being on the amendluent of Mr. HITCHCOCK of Ge,auga, to substitute the section of fered by him in lieu of section 6, which had beenstrick i en out: Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. So far as the general principles of lthe'tareidmenlt are concerned it is not slnecessary to say more thati has been said, and I only rise to notice a few of the objections tliht have been urg ed against it. It seems to me that ithe principle assert ed is just and wise, and that under ordinary circum stances the only inquiry shlould be whether it is strict ly consistent with republican principles. Different Y gptientlemen have objected to the proposition, and for different reasons, not, in every case consistelnt with each other. Tie objections have not been to the prin ciple-for that is not to be att: eted with impun-ity; but to the details and their probatle workiig aud effect. The gentleman frol-om Medin)a, (Mr. DORSEY,) tllilnks it would destroy the whole prilnciple of lthe report. I do not believe that it will lproduce any such effects. It will leave it precisely as it is, except when a counlty is entitled to more than onie representative, when it pro videf that it ahall be divided. IMy colleague, (Mr. RANNEY,) does not say that it is unjust, but that it is absurd and ridiculous. He says that the proposition of the gentlemanrii from Ross. (Air. GREEN,) is absu.rd, and that millne is absurd and ridicu lous. Well, Mr. President, it may be so; but there are M a great many things in this coivention that draw froin my colleague precisely the s-amne decision. He is in the habit of affirming that everything that does not . comen from himniself, or does not coriiport with lis ideas of what ought to be done, is absurd anid ridiculous. Now Mr. Pr~esident, I ask wlhere is the absurdity of Totying that representatives shall be elected in siligle districts? If it is, it is an absurdity'hat has been ahopted in the State of New York, iLI Kentucky, int Wisconsin, and perhaps inl several other States of the U.nion. Thle fr amiers of the conlstitultionl of thlose States did not;, it seems, deemn it either absurd or ridiculouis to dec~lare anid provide that each representtative should be elected by his particular conlisttuencey. I amn satisfi,~d th~at mny eolileazue does not und~erstanld the proposition. He tells us thlat the trustees of the ed, an d th e S ergeant -at-Arm s was despatched for tl absentees. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geamga moved that all fuqth. proceedings under the call be dispensed with, whic was disagreed to. Mr. MITC H aELL moved thact the Convention a joU rn. On which motion, Mr. FLIORENCE demanded lhe yeas and nay which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 44, nays' 4 as follows. Y}3As-Y'Messrs. Andrews, Baibee. lBe,nnett, Browv of Ca r,,11, Calbill, Chambers, Cook. Ewil)g, Gregg Gr,esbecl HIolroes, Holt, Hootinan., Ho-rton, [ffunt, Jones, King, Larsl Lawrence, I,arwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Alson, Mit e11, Mlorehead, Orton, Quigley, Raiiney, Itiddlle, Roll, Sco of tlarrlson. eIer,s,'Stnbery,.S1ilwell. Sticliney, Stid?r Struble. Swan. Taylor, Thomipson of Stark, Towns heni Woodbury anl, Worthin,on —44. NAYG.-Messrs. Barnetof Montgomery, Bates. Blair. Blich ~elsdterfer, Br,&wn of Athens, ChIaeney. Collings, I3orse F, wart, Falr, Florence, Forbes, Giliett, Greene of Defiance IG,,eeii of Ross, Hanmilton, Harlan, liawhins. Hcndersor -Iitchcock of Geauga, Humpphreyille, Huinter, Kirk woo ]Loundon, Marion. McCloud, Otis, Patterseon, PeckC, PelriiD iReemetini, Sawyer, Scott of A_uglaize. Smith of Highlarin !Smith of NVarren, StanAon, Steb'bins, Swift, Warren, Wa and Presideitt-412. So the motion prevailed, and The Conventioni adjourned. ~IUNDRE9D AND TWENTY EIGEITH DAY. MosDAY, March 3, 1851.' 9 O'CL-Kl, A. M. The Cn~entioa met pursutanit to adjournmentL Prayer by thie Rev. Mr. MILLs. MNr. CHIAMBERS presented sundry petints from Williatr Bure h and seventy-six maled, and E3. T. Btacklnghra m and two hbundred and ninipty-five other females n tf M ous ftikl wgum covtnty, prayidng that a clause be iisert,ed in tie new Conostfratioll prohibiting lihe LegislatllTre tromei passn-g any law, legalizing ttrabfc is supirituous oiquors, wthich, on motion, was laid on the table. Mr. ARCHBOrLD from the Sta n iding Commi tt ee on s,iset anes usu Suj e ct s y t oand Propoes itions, submitted the COlews:ilig Report: REPORT ~NUMIBER ONE. ,)?'l~l- ST'N.DING CN1KMITTEE ON XICELLANE013 SU8B3IJECTS A NO PRO POPSTLO.NS. "The commissioners of counties, t he trustees of towntehips,smn - irilar boards, shalt hate such power of local Ia..axti oa for pottle pturposes, ais may be prescribed by taw." The report submitted bv Mr. HOLT on the subject of Banking atnd Currency was re-ad a second timle, and on motieo,of the same gent,eman, committed to a commniittee o,f thie wha)le colnvelntion. On niot,oii of Mr. G[LLETT, the conventioe took? tip the reselufon offered by him some days sinee rfelative to the itimitiijg the time of speakitig in ti-he coniveti~i )ln. Mr SAWYER submitted the following, as a sub-{ stitute for the resolation, which was aceepted by Mr. GILLETT. Re.3ofued, That iio mtiember after this day be allowed to speak {oetg. they. tein miSutes on any question bef'ore the convention. The question being on the adoption of the resolu rio, Mr SAWYER. We, have a numiiiber of questions to be decided(!, and a conisiderable biusiness yet to be Pcted upon, antd by to-morrow morning we ou, -ht to be ready to receive the report of the committee on revision. The sulbjects yet to come under our examin ation are as follows:-ttle report oil schools-the division of the State -iinto judicial districts-tlhe report of the committee ont temrrpera'nee-aand the report of the coimmittee ca OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCH 3. very first step, it sets out with a violation ofthis prin ciple. A town, whether it have one hundred or five thousand inhabitants, is to be represented by its three trustees. Is that right? An hundred men have as nolmuch as fil e thousand? My colleague complains of the system of the report, because it represents towns. The same defect that is. observable in regard to town ships exist in regard to corporate towns; and the re sult is that you start out with a congress composed of three trustees from each township, whether large or small, and the Lord knows how many councilmen from the different petty corporations, in which there is not the slightest shadow of a fair representation. Now tbe trie basis of representation is not num bers merely. It never was it never will be-and, it never ought to be. It is right and proper to recog nize as such the municipal subdivisions of the State, and the political organizations of eounties; but this sinks the whole, violates every principle of justice creates a tendency to cabal and corruption, and is' in Mfact a biow at the orepresentative system itself. Mr. GREEN of Ross. I think this discuss ion must have satisfied evtery gentleman upon this frloor, that the principle involved in this propos ition is iaypreg nable. Gentlemen attack the detail of the section but let the princ iple alone. Thatthe do not seem in clined to meet. I he gentleman from Trumbtll, l(Mr. RANNEY,) is a shining example of this mode of warfare. WiheD I offe-ed a proposition,the other day, pro. viding for the division of eonnkties by the county Ccommissioners, the gentleman (Mr. J,A;NNEY) niae a; speech, of wloich the one he has just delivered is a very , accurate copy. When I mnodified it, so that it was something like the one offered by his colleague, (Mr. IITCHCOcx,) he said that wasbetter, and coming near er the true principle. Now, if the principl e i s correct, aad cnsisteat with republican ideas, it should go in to the constitutionl and gentlemen on all sides ou_gh,t to come up and aido iin perfeting ies details. Wh y will not the gentleman Mfro TrumbRNl Nome uYp and aid to corry out this great republican prin(,iple. Wby will he not aid in perfecting its details, istea d of standing aloof aid eavlina at them? In the proposition that I submitted, I avcidfed violating the integrity of election precincts. That of the gentleman from Geanna, [Mr. HI-cHcocc,t goes fairther, and expressly provides that no chaunge in.town lines shall interfere with the applortionment.:Now if counties are to be divided, what better mode can be devised than to commit the duty to a board composed of the trustees of townships and the cotncilhen of towns? The g-entle.man from Trumbull, [Mr. R.a-NY,l says that it will violate the principle of representation in proportion to numbers. He has very recentlybecome a very great sticker for that principle. The report he is advocating violates it all through. It gives to counties having half a ratio, a representative. Ncow I say to that gentleman that it is a mere figment of the imagination to suppose that tlhe municipal interests of a county divided into districts will not be represented as fully and as well as if all thehrepresen~tatives were elected for the whole territory. Let us look at the effect of the plan of the ommota tee. In Hamilton counts, each vroter has nine tirmes as much influence as in thle other Bountces. I~a every local matter of interest, he aids to seed nine members to the General Assembly. The gentlteman (or. RANrmV,) must be hard ret for all argument when he talks of the iron eatse cvrtruptior~ that will attend the sessions of a body that meets once ill ten years to perform a single mnilisterial act. When} 8enltlemene are driven to arguments such as these top susta;.n their side of the question, they i~ effect admnit township and t he councilmen o f corporate towns will hav e t o me et three or four times in each decennial pe riod, to divid e the counttv into diastricts. He is mista ken. In not ore han wo or three counties will they have to meet more than once, and in no case more than twice. In Cuyahoga county, it may be necessary to meet twice as that county has two occasional rep-resell tatives, f or which provision is to be made. How it w oul d b e in Hamitton as an entire county 1 do not know; but think th ha t it would be entitled to only eigh t representative s, an d that one apportionment only would be necessa ry. In Muskingum, there being a t the last term an occa sional representative, it would be necessarm to ass emble twice; and I think this is all. The gentlelnan from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL.,) objects to the proposition because it is going back to the old b orough sysrtem of England. That is a strange objec tion. Tile gentleman's knowledge of history must be tat fault somewh ere. Is it possible that a provision that w ould g iv e to every constituency of twenty thousand a repren entati ve i s going back to an old system, under which mnere locatiotns and not men were represented, and which, in many instances gave a representation to a place where there was not perhaps half a dozen voters? Mr. MITCHELL. The remark alluded t o by the' gentleman (Mr. HITCHCOCK,) was made upon the motion to strike out. Mr. HITCHCOCK. It was upon the motion to strike out; bu t wl it i s the difference? If applicable to anytl hing, it was toe fr the question of inserting he proposition or something like it. Here is a city of sav twenty thousand inhabitants, and its people want to elect their own representative; and what is th e objection? The gentleman (Mr. MITCHELL) says it i s goingt back to the old borough system of England. If h e w ill go back to t thistorv, he will find that the borougoh system represend ted mere territory, without reference to inhabitants; and that we are endeavoring to give a p epresentative, to each coninstitueniey; and when he does not agree with us, instead of mee ting us with arguments, he cries out-"Shame Shamne!" Now this inay be with the gentleman a knock'em down argument, and if it is such, he, is entitled to all the ben,fit he can derive from it. My colleague, (Mr. RANtEY,) is very apprehensive of the corruption that will attend the sessions of this body that m eet s but once in ten years to divide a county. Fewq men are more skillful in aiiptici ntati bg corruption than ihe, or in smelling it afar off, but I do not envy that man who in the light of his own experience, looking forward to political events that may occur, sees nothing in the motives by which men are to be governed but knavery and deceit. My belief when I introduced this proposition was that it was more in accordance with republican. prin ciples than any that had been presented. I supposed when this Convention assembled, that there was not the slightest doubt that the system of single districtswould be introduced into the constitution. Such was th'-n the appearance, but it has chang~ed —the reason i,i iv in time transpire, but I desire, whatever may be i, fate, to record my vote in favor of the proposi Sir. RANNE~. I desire tox correct my oll~eague, (Mlr. HXTCaCOCK;,) in certain matters wherein he has. misstated my language. I did not say that tide system of representation by single districts was abstird; bult I did say that thle method proposed for the division of counties for that purpose is absulrd, arid in that I was correct- What is the principle upon which the proposition of my colleagule is based? It is absolutei equality of represenltaionl, in proportion to llumbe~rs. Now, sir, whoever examines i~t will tined that at its f i i I f I t f I c d b r 9 t 6 c n p 4,- 6 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCH 3. their own weakness, and the strength of the other case where there are twenty thousand people within party. the limits of any county easily defined by township Mr. President: I will say in conclusion, that in all precinct or ward lines, give them a representative of sincerity, from the time I came into this body, I was their own, uncontrolled by any other part of the same in the hope that this republican theory would form a county, that is, I would divide the countv into single part of this constitution 1 have done so, without re- districts, so as to give each district its ow-n utterance gard to the strength it would give to one party or the through its own representative. other, for so far as its party aspect is concerned, I The gentleman from Miamni, [Mr. DonsrY,' objects have never looked into it, and know nothing about it. to the plan proposed of subdividing counties for rep Mr. SAWYER. I think this question has been de- resentative purposes, because as he thinks the coibated about longenough. We all under.stand it, I pre- ruptions and contentions of the General Assembly sume by this time; I therefore move the previous will be revived in the county bodies. I am conlvilc((i question. that his argument is not a sound one, and that there The question then being, shall the main question be is no analogy between the two cases. It was the now put: falsity of the principle upon which the apportioning Mr. REEMELIN. I hope my friend from Auglaize power formerly was vested in the General Assembly (Mr. SAWYER) will withdraw his motion for a moment that was the cause of its corruptions. It is unsounl He knows the peculiar position in which I stand, inll it principle to give to a representative or any other regard to this question, and ought not, under the cir- body, the power in any manner to control the pocomstances to insist upon it, especially as this is proba- litical complexion of the body that is to succeed it, bly the only opportunity that I shall have to definemy or the character or personality of its successors,position upon this question. - and the corruption in the Legislature was but the Mr. SAWYER. I nm disposed to indu ge the gen- natural consequence of the falsehood of the principle tleman for a moment. I therefore ask leave to with- upon which under the then constitution they were draw my motion. compelled to act. The power was placed in the hands So the motion for the previous question was with- of the General Assembly, to a considerable extent, to drawn. render the supremacy of its party and of its legisla The question then recurring upon the amendment of tion permanent in the State. The motiva to do.o( Mr. HITCHCOCK: WaS constantly before it, and the result is one that Mr. REEMELIN. Being the only member of this might easily have been foreseen and anticipate(l. Convention from the county of Hamilton voting: in Now with boards composed of the trustees of couiifavor of the principles of the amendment of the gen- ties and the councilmen of wards such motives cantleman from Geauga, [Mr. HITCHCOCK,J I am constrain- not be to any great extent operative. They will not ed to beg.the indulgence of gentlemen for a few mo- be acting with reference to their own successors; the ments, to an explanation of the position which I hold men to be elected will not control their own special and the reasons that have induced me to adopt the local hobbies. They will have nothing directly to opinions by which my action is governed. gain by it, as is the case with the General Assembl, Mr. President, what is the business in which we and although, to a limited extent, political feelings are engaged? We are framing a constitution for the and motives will enter and affect their acts and depeople of a sovereign State. What is the part now liberations, still, under the rule that is established re. under consideration? It is that which fixes the mode quiring the districts to be composed of compact an(l in which the people of the State are to be represented contiguous territory, not outsteppiiig township linesi in their Legislative Assembly. No old Constitution orbreaking into election precincts, and requiring tlhe now in the way —no old landmarks to deter us from districts to be of equal population, there can be little starting in the right direction, and to adopt as a new danger that gross injustice will be done. The princibasis an honest principle. And what is the first pro- pal cause that has produced the gerrymander is gone cess that we adopt in the proceeding? We divide the -the main temptation is gone-and, though I doi population of the State by the number one hundred, not say that they will be entirely uninfiuenced by and the quotient thius obtained is the ratio by which party politics-and while I freely admit that they it is determined how many of the people are necessary will stretch the principles of this report in favor oi' to give a county its quota of representatives. The their own party, and that they would district the question then arises: has not each one hundredth part counties, o as to favor the dominant party therein, of the citizens of the State a right to be represented, still the effect will at worst, be very slight, in con)without regard to the wishes or opinions of any other parison with the gigantic corruption in the General hundredth part? Has not each twenty thousand of Assembly on such occasions, it would be local, crethe people such a right, and having that right ought atin no general excitement. These bodies are elected it to be affected by the whims or the caprice of any by the people and are to themi directly responsible other tent thusand~It woul if se, other twenty thousand? It would seem as if there they are acquaiilted with the localities, and they were but one answer to this question. It seems tome would not dare to violate too grossly the rights of their that no one can contend successfully that any twenty respective citizens. thousand people of Ohio have not a perfect right to a Mr. SAWYER. I wish to ask the gentleman from representative in the General Assembly, irrespective Hamilton [Mr. REF.MELIN]aquestion. Supposethatii of the control of the whole, or any part of the remain- the ten years between one apportionment and the next, der of the State, unless strong and conclusive impedi- one of the districts into which a county may be diments can be shown. vided should increase twice as fast as another —how Now, I admit, Mr. President, that we must have would you remedy that? sub-divisions, such as counties, townships, or wards, Mr. REEMELIN. We are discussieg the principle and that such sub divisions ever will be. The State and not settling the details of a proposition. If the is divided into counties and townships, each of which principle shall be found to be eorrect, and shall prevail has its own local purposes to subserve and protect. there can be no difficulty in obviating every objection These civil sub-divisions must be admitted, because to details such as is hinted at in the question of the they are necessary for various purposes, and as a mat- gentleman, [Mr. SAwvER.1 But I submit to him ter of convenience, and I would not wantonly break whether it is a fair mode ofr argumentation, to attack a over nor disregard them. I would not sever county new principle, which has to adapt itself to existing renor township nor ward lines, but I would in every lations of socik ty, and in the drafting of which ali 7177 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MONDAY, MARCI- 3. contingencies may be at once provided for, through the know him better and because he is supposed to know mere details of its operation, especially as they are their interests, because he ismorelikelyto understand open to change and amendment. Is it fair to strangle their wishles-because he sympathizes more strongly no honest principle by spurious and captious excep- with their feelings, and because he has an interest il tiorns, which nmay easily be remedied hereafter. common with those whom hlie represents, and has it Mr. SAWYER. Will the gentleman alter the sec- not often happened, that quotienits of representative fion so that there shall be an apportionment once in districts have beeni deprived of their own immediate five years? representation, by being swamped by a dominant ma Mr. REEMELIN. I have no objection to au ap- jority in a county. Each constituency should be re portionment, once in five, four or three years, nor to presented by men living among them and being of Any other change in the details that is consistent with their own free choice. Or else why do we insert linto the principle of the sectiol); and I had intended, if not the new Constitution a provision, that each Repre cot * ff by the previous question, to have moved all sentative shall have resided one year among the con almendment, providing for the taking of a county cen stituents he proposes to represent. Why should we sus once in four years for that purpose. We cannot in the western part of this county ask those in theo in my opinion, ascertain too'often the population of the eastern, who we are to have to represent us? Or why S.tate and readjust representation il accordance with it. should the east ask the west? Why should the city Any thing to make this principle not onily fair in itself ask the country, the country the city? Why the Geras it is, but consistenit with all legitimate relations in man the native-why the native the German? As it the Suate. now is, men in the county vote for representatives in But I was speaking of the danger of corruption in the city who know but remotely their feelings and the county assemblies. We have provided that the interests and who are selected, with a view torepresent districts shall be composed, as far as possible, of con- the city, and whom the country does not kno; fully; pact territory and equal population, and within the and on the other hand men in the city vote for repreoperation of that rule, a county meeting but once, or senattives in the country under the same circumstanat most twice in ten years, and than for one purpose ces. Is this right? Is it according to the principles alone. I do think they would not and could not be of a republican government? Is it not on the coninfluenced by that great variety of interested motives trary, indirect opposition to the very first principles that sway the opinions and control the action of the uponi which the representative system is founded? General Assembly, and that therefore their action The geitletman from Trambull, [Mr. RANNEY.] has wouldbe purer. But let me ask, which is most to be drawn a uorrin( picture, approaching a caricature of dreaded, to be gerrymandered a little, hut still ro- this county Congress, as he calls it, but suppose we serve the substance of representation, or lose all by take him to other and more familiar scenes. Suppose l}Hing swamped entirely. you accompany me to the comtmoni nioninatinlgground The gentleman fiom'Trumb1ull,[Mr. RANEYY,]afraid of both parties in this county. Attend a convention to meet the principle, attacks too the detail and ein- with me and there see, bow often it is a mere chance9 iliavors to pointout particularinstaniceswhereabuses that all parts of the county are represented on the will arise. But is lie borne out by the facts? We have ticket,-how the feelings of one section ari swamped much assemiblies often. We hatve thle board of equai- |by the caprice of thle majority, how whole sections ret zuioI, we hmbve city councils, school boards, &c. are I main unrepresented,-how very often iIen are selected these corruptions? Again the very system is in O- forspecialseclions, who are verv obnoxious to those eration i1:New York, and has he, can he show me in very sections. I ask sir, whether it may not ofter hapany of the public papers, or in any public or private Ipen, that whole constitutional const-tuencies are either document, eveni the scratch of a pen, going to show not represented at all or misrep1resented. I will not say or even declaring that any abuse, corruption or die- that such hlas been the case, but I say it mty so happen, 1honesty has been Ih e result of the application of the and the danger even of such a cotinstituency should be system of single districts there. Let him look at Al- guarded against. All the seven Represe n tatives of liany, or if New Yorkl will not do, let hint go to Hamilton may be taken from the city or countty, while Philadelphia, and prove, if he can, that corruption in justice to all, each constituency ought to have a dissuch as he depicts, has been the result. That gentle.- trict representative of its own. -tan can draw oni his imagination as long as he But how is it at the polls? There sir, we must vote pleases, but we want facts, which are easily within for seven men, not only for our immediate representareach and which can be ascertained easily. I assert, tive, but for six others besides. We may vote plumpt.hat not only no charge of corruption has been made ers or for two otily. We may force upon others by (on the contrary both in New York, and Philadelphia, our votes representatives, which they do not want, and the system has given general satisfaction and evils of we may have forced uponi us representatives, a nas Crilong standing and of much complaint are thereby ty of us do not want. This seven fold constituency, obviated-all parties are satisfied with it, as fair and with a seven fold representatioi;-this mixed represel.equitable to all. tation is, I repeat it,-an unmixed political absurdity, But whly wont gentlemen reply to our positions or which the old constitution required, but which we principles, will they? Have titey —iay dare they as- shoild now rep)udiate inll the adoption of the new. sert, that each quotient of 20000 within a county has You talk of pipelaying. Why what is this voting not a right to be represented by its own representa- for each othler's representatives, but pipelaviltg? What kive? They have net done so, —thev dare not do SO.? it but voting for other representatives thati your own? Thley wont come near the principle by a 1000 nites. I The gentlenian from Knox, [Mr. MITCHSLL.J talks of LHill this is the principle of the amendment-nothinf the borough interests, and accuses the friends of the po more-nothin.tless. sition of attempting to revive the borough system of And now let m, ask why do we not admit the England. The idea is a rich one! Just think for a practice t:tt is allowed in England and in France- moment. What are we doing? We are attenipting where a man in London or in Paris may represent a to give each living constitueccy of the constitutional connstituency that perhaps he has never seen, and a magnitude, in poulation, its own separate represendistrict that he has never cnte, eJ. The reason is tative. We give representation to the living niet and this: The repre'entative is here taken friom the body women of Ohio,-iiot to corporations, tot to counties, of the people he proposes to represent, because theyt not to court houses orcountty organizations. And is 778 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, MARCHI 3. this a return to that system that gave the representative to the mere location, to a certain quantity of brick and mortar, without regard to numbers, and irrespective of the fact whether there was any constitueucy or not? Call you ours a borough representation? Surely not! And if there are any that favor the borough system, it is the gentleman from Knox himself; who ii his a.vocacy of imaginary municipal interests makes an attack upon the vital principles of republican representation. A word in regard to the position in which I find my. self placed in respect to that of my colleagues. I make no charge against themi, nor have the least desire to impugn their motives. They have the full right to act as to them may seem best, but I must say that those who oppose the single district system in coiisequence of its effect upon old Hamilton, are neither wise friends to their party nor are they true friends to the constituents they represent; and if they hereafter find that like the dog who was crossing the stream with a piece of ilieat in his mouth, they lose the substance tby snapping at the shadow, I wash my hands of all blame or agency in the matter. Our party has already within it more of the elements of discord than any party can well carry, and if they give way to the temptation to secure seven representatives, when they can have five without difficulty, and thereby lose the whole, it will be lo fault of milne, and they will not have done it without a fair and sufficientt warning of the danger they incur. Let members around me reflect, that in this matter I can speak but by hints, for I will not throw the least impediment in the wray of the party to which I am proud to belong-for I love, I cherish, the Demo- cratic party. I think with its existence, with its stic- cess, is involved the safety of the Union, the liappiness of the States, and the prosperity of the people. On the other hand, I look upon the Wrhig party with i aversion, and I deemn the ascendancy of that party, at any time, as a great misfortune. Still, I will not violate a good and honest principle to favor the one or to injure the other, for the Democratic party never t will prosper by doing wrong, nor is a triumph, gained by a violationi of the principles of representation, a' triumph for the Democratic party. But on the other hand, I will not needlessly deal blows even sideways i at my party, and so on this question I desire to avoid i all irritation, and I want to state nothing but what is absolutely necessary to fortify the principle I advoCate. I have already enlarged upon the principle, and, desire now only to submit a few remarks by way of' wardinf off the party attacks that may be made upon t me, and iii reply to appeals which are made to mem- i letrs on party gr(:unds. And in this connecti on I have asked, and I ask again, is it wise to attempt to i stifle the voice of a milority such as we have in old Hlamilton? They are rich, and powerful in talent and means. Suchl a minority, whose utterance is corn- pletely checked, in alhvays restless, rnd fighting as it t does for special rights and for pecuniary interests, it will stop at nothing to accomplish its purposes. Per-t 1 mit me to state a few facts in ouir history, that may! illustrate what I mean.l In 1828 Jackson had 1800 I majority in this county. In 1834 Mr. Storer beat Mr. i Lytle by 93 votes. In 18:e8 we had sonie 600 or 800s majority. In 14'.39 Harrison had 28 majotity in this s county. In 1844 we had 1,920 for Polk. In 1848 1 our majorit,y was but little over half that, and a part p o of the Democratic ticket was defeated. I do not mention these matters with a view to hurt anybody's i e feelings, nor with a view to persuade members to do o anything wrong. I mention it merely to show that l party appeals, as n:tde on this question, are not pure, c unadulteralted wisdom, and that there are prudential reasons, as well as reasons of principle, for the single district system, and to remilhnd my.y colleagues t h at they disapprove a principle that i s not only right, but wise. not only wise in general, but wise under t.el present circumstances, and as such, whatever may be the opposition, it will ultimately prevail. But there is another (:onsideration that is worthy of consideration, not in a party view, but it should have some weight with us as delegates of a large commercial city. I askl gentlemen, whether, when the whig party is it] a majority at Columbus, if it is not for our interest to be represented in that party? Thevoice of a whig is heard and listened to bv the members of his party, when that of a democrat is not. I have had some experience in this matter, and I know that propositions just in themselves and of benefit to our whole constituency, which benefit had to be granted by the majority, that our propositions have been receives with distrust, because they ca,t,e from a member of the opposite politics. I ask therefore, if in this point of view, one or two whig representatives from this county, which are made tip lo the party in other counties, would be such a great misfortune to our common constituesnts. These are prudential reasons and I only offer them as auxiliaries to an honest principles. Were single districts in themselves wrong, these prudential reasons would have no weight with ine, nor would I urge them, and I now urge then only, because I have been attacked here as lacking that'high regard for the rights and the interests of my constituents, which should always clharacterise a representative. 4 779 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, MARCH 3. d the opinions and interests of the men who elected him r to a seat on this floor. I have not conversed with one - who is not opposed to him in sentiment. That ques- tion, however, iq his own-it is between himself and his constituents; but for myself I initend never to s swerve from what I believe to be the sentiments of my t constituents. If he does otherwise the affair is his t own. 1 And now I desire to ask him, if the county has not t always had a fair representation? Mr. REEMELIN. No sir. Mr. HOLMES. Mr. President, I say it has. The 1 county has now has one senator nnd the city one. The population of thee county is forty thousand; that of the city one hundred and fifty thousand. The county has three representatives, andthe city two; and the representation has generally been in the same proportion. The gentleman, [Mr. REEMELIN,] also gives as one of his reasons for supporting this proposition, that there are discordant elements at work in the Demo. e cratic party which will eventually prove its over throw. His course uts me in mind of the lame cap taiin, who told his soldiers when a battle was abotu to commence, to fight bravely; but as they would undoubtedly be beaten in the end, andl have to run, as lie was a little lame he would start first. So it is with my colleague. He sees the evidence of discord, he believes his party will be beaten, and he has started first. The question pending being on agreeing to the amendment proposed by Mr. lITCeICOCK of Ge auga. Mr. WOODBURY moved to amend the amendment by inserting after the word "'State," where it occurs the first time in the first part of the ainerdmnent, the following words, "or sutch other officers within the county as shall be prescribed by law." Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being, Shall the mainl question be now put-,? it w as agreed t o. I The questi on then bein g o01 tohe amendHment to the amendment proposed by Mr. WOODB URY, Mr. HAMILTON desn dd the ym i troand nays, whit,lh were ordered, and resulted-yeas 45, nays 51, foliows: YEZAs —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold,Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preb e, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderter, Browni of Athens. Brown of Carroll,Chanbers, eoltings, Cookl,Ewart, Florence, Gillett,,Graham,Gray. Green of Ross, lqamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitclhcocli of Geauga, Horton, Hu, ter, Larsh, Mason, Morehead,McCloud,Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins. Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery,Stanton, Stilwell, Swan. Swift, Taylor, Woodbury and Worthington-45. NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Case of Lickinig, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, hurry, Dorsey, Ewing. Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard. Henderson, olimes, [olt, Hootman, Hurriphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones,King, Kirliwood, Lawrenice, Larwill, Leech Leadbetter, Li,ley, Loudon, Marion, Mitchell, Norris, Patterson, Quigley. Ranniiey, Rcemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, S;ellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Stark, Townishetd. Vanlce of, Butler. Warrern, Way, ", ilson and President-5l. pri ncipl e fr om t he time whe n i t w as first asserted, an the more I have reflected upo n it since, th e stronge? have my objections bt come, and I am astonished, un d er the circumstances, that mv colleague,(Mr. RENmIE LINr,) should i take a different view of the mat ter. Now,what does this amendment propose? It seem s to me that the divisio n of Hamilton county is its sole object. I can o t n th r come to no other conclusion than that it wa s des ig ned mer ely to m utilate old Hamilton, and for no other puripose- and it is in this scheme tha my colleague has joined. My colleague thinks that no corruption and tricker wsilt resuilt from this mode of division. I am astonishe d to hearhim express such an opi nion. Lookfor a mo ment at the body of men who will be collected-to di vide the county of H amilt on. Who ar e they, sir, and who and what will the y represe nt? The gentleman [Mr. REEr ELIN] is not ignorant of the charact er of the m en w ho form the city council of tthis city. They are men who are posted up on all the petty a nd local political questions of the day; and here we are at tempting to offer a premium for political managers in the boards of township th rustees, and such men will be ,tinted up for the particular purpose of performing th e service that is required of them. It wi ll be a repetition of the performgances of political dema,ogues in t he L egislature, only on a smaller and meaner scale. It will be a sin e qua non, to assemble such a board at the county sea t of this c oun ty, and the re sult wll be, tou sink and swampn every whig vote in it. Now, let us look, for a moment at the equality and fairness of the p rinciple upon which this board will be assembled. There w ill be, in Hamilton coun ty, some eighty-o ne or two members. The three trustees of Millereek township, will represent a population of six thousand, whi e the thr ee trust ees of Spencer will rep resefat only sixteen hundred. I,; this fair? Is thi s all perfectly right? Is this one of those beautiful speci mehls of repub icanism of which gentlemen speak? Is this one of their specimens ofcarryitg out the principle of equal popuilar ra)resentation? Then here in the city is the eighth ward with a populat ion of 14,000, and the first wi th a population of six th ousand-each repre. sented by its three Councilmen, with a difference be tween the two of eight thousand votes. The three representatives of the fourteen thousand have no more force than the three representatives whose constituents are not half that number. The eleventh ward, also, has upwards of niLneteeni thousand, while the fifth has five thousan)d —yet thev are, alike in their repres,enta tion. Gentlemeni start out as they say. on the principles of right and justice, yet they violate those princi ples the very first move they make. Now, a word or two to my colleague, [Mr. REEMELJN.] He says that he is biased by no local or sectional interest, and that he goes for the general benefit of the whole. I hope he does. But I ask what is a county? It is a municipal body established for certain purposes. What would be the effect of this proposition upon the interests of such a body? Would it not be to raise up sectional feelings —to produce divisions of sentiment and distractions, in local matters, and thus operate to the injury of the vwry interests promoted and fostered] by those municipal divisions? W~ould it n~ot operate in this county to set one section against another —the upper against the lower, and the lower agains; the upper? Sir, I am satisfied that the section is fraught with mischlief, and that it is inimical to the interests of thle people, both of city and county, and I hope it will be voted down. Sir, I am astonished at the course my colleague has seen fit to pursue upon this question. Hitherto he has always battled ill opposition to the whigs; but he has joined himself to them as allies, and in opposition to So the amendment tan the amendment wasCo rejected. The question then being on the oue amgend menH t proposed by Mr. HITCHCOCK, of Geauga. Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and nays which were ordered, and resulted-yeas47, nays 50, as follows: I YE.s-M-,. —-s Andrews, Barbee, Barniet of M,)nt,omery, Barnett of Preble, Bites, B;nuie,t, B~iekenas(erfe;-, B,:owi of Athienis, Blvown of Ca!:roll, Chiamiber-s. C,111s. Cok, Cuirrv E~~ant. F i,thee, Gilleta, G" alam. Grav, Graven of Ros,I' Hamilton.Harlan,, Hivkinis,Henderson, I-Iit-bh!.'e-k of G.auza, HortonI" Hunter. Larshi, Maso)n, Moreheadi. Mc-Cloud. Nash, Otis Peck,'Perkin,s, Reemelin. Scott of Harr-isan,, Smtiithi of Hi,,hlanid S!iith of Warren. Stanbhery, Stanton, Stilwell, Stvan, Swift, Taylor, Willialdms, Woodbury and Worthington —47. 780 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCI 3. , liIgs Cook. Curry, Dorsey, Ewa-t, Ewinit, Florenice, Forbtes Goahtam, mreene of BDefire, GWeen of RsF. Grea,, tltan il toii, Hard, Hitc-hcock of Geeaga,Holmes, Holt. Ilootntan, Hor. taM, H,tilplreville, Hliiet, Hunter, Joheso,, Jones, KilPri. Kirkwood, Lavrene, Larwill, v,eecbi, S,eadbetterte Liv, iyv, Lidou, MaOno, Mitch,II, MlCloe.lNorri, ts,Oti,Paote-rson. Peck,QeiigIey%. Raniie,~, Riddle, Ro'l, Sawyer, Se,It of Autlaize, Sellers Smiitlh Higfh!an, Smith of Warren. StanlIerv, Stanitoni, Stebb)ins, Stilwell, Stidger, Strulhle. Swift. Tlhomrsonl of Stark, Tow ishe ri(B,Vance of Butler, Warren,Way, W;"i'ams,Wi lso, V~oodlhutrv anid Pr.-esidentt-74. N.,Ys-Messr-s. Barnett of oPrew GleeoDen,G, BGoensderfec, BHiown o Athe,s, B owi o f Carroll, Grav, H rlar H, HIawki,,s H onderson, Larsh, Nasoei, Morehead, Nash, Reeitoe,ini and Worthington -14. So the first section was ordered to be engrossed. Mr. SAWYER moved to re-consider the vote, by which section 7 was stricken out; On which motion, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resuated-yeas 37, nays 53, as follows: YEs —Messrs. Brown of Alhens, Case of Licking, Chamrbers Cuirry. Fwing, G!,ee.,e of Detian e, GHe,,g, Gnes r,eck. ariiton, Hawkinis, Holm,,es. Hmiiter, Jones, Ki-,g. Kirkwood, La,'sh. Lee-h. Lond(lon, Maiono, Mitchell, Pattersono, Quiiley, Riddle, Ro'l, Sawver, S,-ott of Harr,soii, Sot ot of Aualaize, Sellers. Smit[] of Warretn, $.ehhins S;ruit.'e. Swan, Swift, T'hompson of Stark,W'ar-,en Williati:s and President-37. N,&Ys-Me~srs. Andrews.. Are.!lko'd, Barioee, Barnet of -Mont~orle?r, Barnett of Prehle. Bates, Be,inett, Blair. B iclkeuisder feo, Brown of t'arro;1, Cahil!, Chenaeiy, Collin,-,s, Cook, Dorsey. Ewart, FIlo-enc,e. Forl,es. Gi'ay, Gree,, of Ros,F Hardl, Harlan, Henderson, Hit],hc.ock of Gea,lg,a, He!t, H-otlmanl, Horton, H~umlphr-ville, Hut, Johnson. l,aw,'eie, fLarwi 1, Leadlbetter, L ev,MaFont. Morelma(d, NeGC'oei, lh'orris, Otis, Pe,k, Rai,rev, Reen'etini, Smiitlh of Hibhland. St-d-erv,Stanton. Stilwe!oSt~d ge,', Town%sherid. Valice of Birtler,Wayr, Wi'son, Woodlbury and Wo,'th-iini,tonl-53. So the. motion to re-consider was disagreed to. Mr. MANON moved a call of the ConVention. On motion of Mr. LAWRENCE, The Convention took a recess. NAYs —M,ssrs. A.'clibold, B'air, Cahill, Case of Lif'kiii,, Cha ney, Clara. i)or;e,. Evinig. Forbes, Gees,e tof Dhiance, G erzg. Groesbecik,Har(i, H )!ie.-. HiIt,Hootliall, Hunit)lireville. Hianll, Johnso!~, Jounes, K, Kirkl'ood, Lawrei(re, Larwill, Leech, L,'adi,et er, L:d!., 1,,h,, MariLo, Mit,chell, Norris, Patter son, Qlirley. R'ile, IRol. Sawyer. S-ott of Aitlaize, Se;llers, Ste,!ri t SticL neiv,Sridlger. SLitI,le, Tliomnpso, of Stark, 'Tw,svi,hed, Vaie,f Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson anid Pi,esident-50. So the amendment was rejected. Mr. COLLINGS moved to further amend the Re port, by striking out of section 3, in the last part of the same, the words, "third, secotnd and first," and in sertindg in lieu thereof, the word,, "'second, first und fifth." Mr. STANTON moved to re-consider the vote by which section 6 was stricken out. Oa which motion, lie demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 47, nays 49, as follows: YE.s-Messrs. Andirexws, Archhl,d. Barkee, Barnet of Mont golery, Ba rnett of P'ehle, Bates, B:i)mett, lii-kensderier. Brownof Athens, B;owtn of ('airoll. Case of Lickicig, UhaiiLhers, Collit s, Cook, Currv,EwarLt, Flo-rence. G aliaii, Gray. Green of Ross, Ilailto, Harla l, Hawki is, HBnoder-o:r, H',t(Whe, ik of Giauiga, Horton, luinTe,, Johison, Larsh, Lawrerin-e, Masoo, Morehead, M,CIold. Nash, Otis, Peck. Perkrin., Scott of larrison, Siith o nf SHigh!anid, Smtith of Varren, Stali,cery. Stanton, Stilvell, Swat, Wiiliaiis, Woo(lvuriy arnd WVorthing f toen-47. NAYs-Melsrs. Blair, Cahill. CGaev a e, Coak, Doosey, Erwinr% Farr, For!e, Green e of Defia,ce, Gregg, GroestirckH, tHa d, Holtroes H ot. Hooli iman, tm)hrevill, Flit, Jones, Kig, Kirkwood, Larwfll LLdecl, LeadMhetter. Iidey. LSiadein, Mdho, Miteliell, Norris, Patterson. Qiiglley, Ratirtey, Reeiie'i,., Riddie, RB)ll, Sawyer,S-ott of Alataize, Sel!es.; tehbhis. Stickniey. Stidger, Strlile, Bwift. Taylor:-, TholTireso] of Stark, Towisheid, Warrnn, Way, Wilson arnd Presideiit-49. So the motion to re-consider was rejected. The question then being on the amendment submitted by Mr. COLLINGS, It was agreed to. Mr. REEMELIN moved to further amend the Report, by adding to the end of section 1, the followit)g: "Provided, That the General Asserm! ly may piovide by law for a State Census and Re-apportionment, four years after the Federal cenisus above referred to. -and every ten years thereafter; provided, however, that such apportionment shall bie made in strict accordance to the principles of app,ortionment herein contained." Mr. MANON moved the previous question on section 1. The question then being, shall the main question be now put, It was agreed to The question then being on the amendment proposed by Mr. REEMELIN, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and niays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 8, nays 80, as follows: YE&s.-Messrs. Chambhers, Greene of Defianre, Hitchcock of G ariga, Hort)on, Otis, Reeineliii, Stelbhitis andn Wortliiiit(r-, -S. '- NAYS-Messrs. Andrewvs, Bartiet of Moritlgotiery. B:iern Se of Prvlle, Bales, Be!nielt, tlair, Blirkeisderfler, Bi-owni of Athenrs. Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of L~ckiitg. Cheaney, C ark, Coilinls, Coo,k, Cu,rry. Dorsey, Ewai't. Ewving;, Fioern((-, F,,ries, Grahalii, Ga, G eecii of RHss, G-egg, Haititon, Hs,rd, Harlan, Hawkinis, Heders olnlies, Holt, HimotlaT, HiiRn phrevi:le, Hlint,HuIiter, J;,iiimso:, Joure. Kin", Kirkwood.Larst M, Ltwreoce,. Larwil!. Leecri, Lea,l,etter, Lirlei, Liidoen. Maniolc Maeon, Mitchell. Mireheal. McCloid(l. Nash. Norris, Patterson,. Peek, Qr ii lev, Rairrey, Rid(ile, Roll,Saw yer, Sot tm e ot'AHli naizeo Sol'ere, Smith of Highlard, Smith of Warren, Statilerr, Stilwe'l, Stickney Slid.,er, Strulzle. Swift, Thompzsonl o)f'Slck, T'wrisirend, Vance of Bitler, W~arren, Wav, W Willialsl Wil0s' Woodlury and Presideunt-80. So the amendment was rejected. The question tben being on ordering section 1 to be engrossed, Mr. HENDERSON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 74, nays 14, as follows: VYEA-Messrs. Andrews, Arch'olo, Barnret of Monitgomery, Bates, Beinnett, B'air, Cahill, Chamblers, Chaney, Clark, Col The question pending being the motion for a call of the Converntion. Mr. LEEM;H demanded the yean- and nays, which were ordered and resulted yeas 5'J, nays 25, as follows: Yz.Es-Messrs. Bates. Bennett. Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chaney, (CIark, Collings, Cook, Curry. Dorsey, E art, Fa,rr Forbes, Greene of Defiancee. Groeg, Hamnilton, Hrs, Hitchcoc, of G eeaiiga Hlmes'o, C o Holrtn, Hootman Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones. Kirk wood. f arab, l,awrence, Larwilly,Leech, Lidey, oudon, Manoron, Mitchell, Morehead, M,,rris, Norris, Orton, Otis. Patterson, QLUigiey, Raniney, Riddle, Roll, tSawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Sctantoli, Stebbins, Si ticney Stier. Struble, Thompson of Starlk, Towinsliend, Warren and Way — 59. NAys-Messrs Andrews. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomnery, P.arnett of Preble Brown of Ahlens, Chambers, Florence, Gillett, Gray, Green of Ross. tlawkins. Henderson,, Hunter, McCloud, Peck. Reemelin, Smith of Highland. Stilwell, Swani, Swift, Vance of Butler, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthington —5. So a call of the Convention was ordered, and Messrs. Archbold. Blickenisderfer, Case of Hoeking, Cutler, Graham, Hitchcock of Cuyahoga. Kennon, Mason, McCormick, Nash, Perkidis, Smnit,h of Wyandot, Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Champaign and Williams, wore found absent. On motion, Messrs. Case of Hocki nig and Thompson of Shelby were severally excused. On motion of Mr. BLAIR all further proceedings under the call were dispensed with. Mr. SAWYER moved to further amend the Report, by striking out the followitng words in section 9, ,and for separating cities and corporate towns from their reapct ive counties." Mr. HOLMES said that since his friend from Tuscarawas,(Mr. BENNETT,) had not himselfsigned the report, he hoped the gentleman would not think strange of it, if he should sanctioll this amendment. 781 AFTERNOON SESSION.. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCI1 3. . Reemelin, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of VW arren, Staubery, Stanton, Stilwell, Taylor, Vance of But ler and Worthiington-41. So the demand for the previous question was sus tailmu#d. The question then being on the amendment proposed by Mr. GREEN k; of Defiance, it was agreed to. ThTi question then being on ordering tie Report to be eligrossed. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga demanded a division. The question then being onl ordering sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 to be engrossed. Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and navs, whichI were ordered and resulted yeas 68, niays 29 as, fol lows: Vn:e,ps —MePsrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Blair, Cahill, Case of Lic!ng, fhanibers, Chaney, Clark ('Cllings, c olk. Dorsey, Elvart, Ewiug, Farr, i orbes, (.reene of Ilefiance, Gregg, Groesbecle, Hard, Hawkins,,Iitchcock of Ceauga, Hlolmes, Holt, Hootma,, flumphreville, leunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones,J{ing, Ktirklwood. Lawrence,Larwill, Leech, LIeadhetter, Loudon, Manoii, Nlitchell, McCloud, Nor ris, ('rton Patterson, Peck, (,uigley. Rrnney, Reemelin, Riddle, o t il, Sawyer Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of e Warren,,tebbins, Stickliney, Stidger, Struble, Swan. Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Starl. Towushend, Vance of Butler, Warren Wav. Wilson. Woodbury and 1'resident-68. ovt ys-holessrs. Barnett of Preble, 1,ates. Bennett, Blickens. derfer,'roiwn of Athens, Brown of Carryll. Curry, Flor. ence. (cii]ett Graham, Gray, Green of l..oss, Hamilton, Har lain, Henderson. Horton, Lrsb, Lidey, Mason. Niorehead, Morris, Nash. Otis, Scott of Harrison,?mith of Highland, Stapbery, Stanton. t-tilwell, and Wrorthington —29. . So sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 were ordered to be en grossed. The question then being on ordering sections 8 9, 10 and 12 to be engrossed: Mfr. TAYLOR demanded the veas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 58, nays 38, as fol lows: YEAS-Y,Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Bla i r, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chaney, n Clark, ook, Dorse y, Ewing, FaoT, Forbes, Gree ne o f DeianceG reg,Gegg, Groesteck, Hard, Holmes. Holt. f,ootLman. Hiumphreyville n, unt, John. son, Jolnes, King, Kirliwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, LouMdon, Maion, SMitchell, Norris, fOtis, Patterso n, Pe ck, Qui grley. R an bey, R eemelin, R iddle Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Augl,aize,,Sellers, Stebbins, Sticknley Stidg.r, Stru. ble, Swhan Switt. Thomp.or of Statk, Tosetnshend, Vance o f HButler, Warren, Waay, Wilson. wWorthin gtorn end Preside n t -58. NAYs —.-Messrs. Andrews Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blickenisderfer, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Chambers Collings. Curry, lEwait, Florence. Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Harlani, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Larsh, Lidey. Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, hash, Scolt of Ha',iso'). "I,.l h of liigh land - Siyi, hof Warren, Stanbery, Stanton,'Stilwell, Taylor and Worthilngton-'37. So sections 8, 9, 10 and 12 were ordered to be engrossed. 'The question then being on ordering sections 13 and 14 to be engrossed: it was a,reed to. The question then being on ordering the Representative Schedule to be engrossed: Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 59, nays 38, as follows: YE,,s,-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Case of Liclking Chaney, Clark, Colii,!gs, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing,, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Creesbeck, lHamilton}, Hard, hoelmnes, Holt, Hootman1, Hump~hretille, Hult, Hunlter, Johnson, King. Kirk woodl, l jawrence, Larwill, Leech,.!,earlbetter, l.oudon, Marnon, Mtitchell, McC~loud, :Norris, Patterson, }'eclc, Quigley, Rannley, Riddle, Koll,,Sawyer, Scott. rsf Augiaize, SRellers, Smith of 5~arrenl, Stebbins, Stick;ney, S~tyable., Swift, Taylor, Townshead. Vance of But le'. Warren, XA~ay, W~ilson, ~Voodbury, and Prcs~-dlent- $9. NAs —s.~;essrs. Andrews. Barlee, Bar:~et cf lMontgomery, Barnlett of Preble. B3ates. Bennett, Blicke,.sdcrfcr. Rrown of Athenls. B3rown of Carroll, C:hamb~ers, Florence, GMillett, Gra ham, Green of Rcoss, Harlan, Hawksins, Hendlerson, Hitch' cocks *f Geauga., Hortoni, Joues. Larsh, Lidley, M~ason, M,)~re' head, Morris, Nash, Ortonl, Otis, Reefrodin, Scott of Ha~rsison' Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga thought this amend. ment ought not to be made but he supposed this re port was going to be passed under the siniguilar state of fact, in which all the members of the cormmittee on apportionment would be found voting against certain portions of their own report. Mr. REEMELIN desired the words to be stricken out. It would involve a strange absurdity to retajin them. Hfie dlesired either counties or single districts, nothing between. Mr. BENNETT hoped these words would not be stricken out. Tlhe g,,ntlemain from Hlamriiltoni, (Mr. HOLMoS,) the chairman of thle (ommittee or apportion ment, had told us this iliorning, that, although this re. port, or a report like this, in this piarticular respect, and in nearly II others, had been before the people, since some tine before the clse of the summer ses sion, that he had not yet heard any complainxt again st it. Now, sinye3 this proviso for the separation of cities and incorporated towns under certain cohti gencies, had been so long before the p eopl e, with wut meeting with ae v c omplaint, he tl ouglht the con vention wou ld be juistifie,s in retaini ing it. Mr. MANON hope d the words w ould be stricken out. He shoul(d vote for the amendmeoit; and doing so, he would not be acting mor e incnsisteggtly than mnembers of otlaer imp ortant commlittee s of this lod y, who had voted vagainst certain provisions of their own reports. T he q uesti o n b eing takeW upon Mnonr. SAWYER't amendment. Mr. STANTON demanded the yeas and niays, which were ordered and resulte d yes 56, lnays 33, as follows: YEAs —Messrsc. Blair, Brown of Athens Cahill, Chaney, Clark, iD orsey, Ewing, Farr, Fobes, Greene of Defi anc e, Gregt. G reesbeck, Hlard, pendersoi, Holmes, Holt, fieootmane,Humphreile, HutIt, Johnson, Jones. King, Kirklvood, Lawrence. Larwill, Leech, lfealbetter, Lidey, I. oudoe, M anon, Alitchell, Norris, Orton, Pattersonb. Q uigley, Ra bney Ri eemelin, t'iddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers,,teb bins, Sticlney, stidger, Struble, Swit, Taylor, Thomp-son of ftark. Townishead, Vance of Butler, Warren, i'ay, Wlison, Woodbury and President-56. NsYs-Messrs, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Prcble. Bates, Bernaet, llicliens,derfer. B r own of Carroll Case of Lickie,g, I ha bers, C ad,Collings, Coo, Curry, Flo rence, Gray, Gretien ol Ross, Harlan, lJawkins, KitclHcociK of GeatJga, Horton, Huiter, Larsi, Morehead, MoLris, Mct, loud, Oltis, Peck, Scott of Harriison, Sll,ith of Hithland, Smith of Warren, St anbery, Stanton, Stilwell and WortlPsgton —33. So the motioni to etrike out prevailed. Mr. GREENE of Dfianllce m oved t o fu rth e r am end (he Report by adding as an additionalsetion the followinlg: SF.c. Returns when two or more co~unities are joined in Sentltorial or Representative districts shall be seno th t to tha! ruhnty lavitfg the greatest population. Mr., MITCHELL n, ove d t he previous question on the remaining sections of the Report. Tlhequestioin then being "slall the main question be 'put." Mr. HAWKINS demanded the ye,-s and nays, which were ordered, ard resulted veas 52, nays 41, as folllows: VEAs-Messrs. Blair Cahill. Case of Licking, Chaney, Clark;, Cook, D?rsey, Ewart, EinVilg, Farr. IForbes, Greenae of l~efiance, Gregg, G ceshecl;, Hard, Holmes. Hootman, Humphrewitie, Hfunt, Hunter. Johnson. Jonles, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Ljarwill, Leadbetter, Loudlon, Marion, ~itchell. Norris, Ortonl, l'atterso~, Peck, Quligley, Riddlle, :ball, Sawvyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers,:-rob~binls, Stickiney, ~truble, Swan, Swvift,'3Thompson of Stark,Towvnshend, Wa,~ren, V,avr, ~'ilson, Woodbhury, and Iaresideal —5o. NAYS —Messrs. Andlrew-s, Barbee, Barnet of MJontgomery, Barnlett of Preble, B~ates, Bennlett, B~licksensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brovvn uf Carroil, Chlambers, C:olfings, C'urry. Flor. ence, Gilbett, Gr av, Greenl of gtoss. Harlan, H~awkins. Hen. dersot, Hitchcockt of Geauga, Holt, Herto,, 1,arsh, Lidey| Nlason, Morehead, MIorris,i McCloud,s Nash, Otis, Ranney~ -1 I I t '782 OHIO CONVENTION I)EBATES-MoNDAY, MARChi 3. , Mr. S. said if this amendment were made, it would equalize the population of the Lucas and the Sari dusky districts, makiting them both to contain about 59,0OO inhabitants, whereas, now thie f,arier contains l about 56,000 and the latter about 6'2,0()}. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, said the strongest n objection which hlie had to this -'chedule was proposed to be obviated by this amendment. The county of Ottawa was to be counted and always had been count ed with the county of Wood, to constitute a represen tative district; and now, he could not see any good hreasJon that, for senatorial purposes, this county should be taken away fromt its collleetion WithWIsod county, and that senatorialdistrict, and attached to the district coinposed of the counties of Huron, Erie t and Sandusky. Now the coulities of Hurl on, Erie and Sandusky mniake a district of 59,'310 ilnhabitants, - whilst the adjoiningi district of Wood Lucas, Henry, Putnam, &c., has a population of only 56G,703; atnd if , you add Ottawa to the district of Huroni, Erie and lSman dusky you increase the population to 62,620 — ' makillg a difference bttween these two adijoining districts of 5,917 inhabitants. But if Ottawa were L taken from the district to -which it had been now as signed by the committee, and attached to the district composed of Wood, Lucas, Putnam, &e., it would in crease the number of inhabitants in that district to 69,013; and leave the districtof Huron, Erie ant San dusky with a population of 59,310; making a differ ence of but 70.3-making tlhem as nearly (equal. he apprehended, as any two contiguous districts in the State. Mr. TAYLOR showed that there were several dis tricts in tihe State containing a larger number of in habitants than the proposed district of Huron, Erie, Sandusky and Ottawa; and withl regard to the coun ties of Hancock, Wood, Lucas, Fulton, Henry and Putnam, al though their aggregate population was now but a little over 56,000, it was fairly to be presumed that the increase of population in these counties would be far greater thanl that of the counties of Hua. ronr, Erie, Sandusky and Ottawa; and that, in the course of five or ten years, the numerical prepon derance might be the other way. He showed also that from the locality of the county of Ottawa and their business connections with Sandusky city, it would be much more convenient for them to be attach ed to the district of Huron, Erie and Sandusky, as proposed in the report. lMr. STANION said it would be seen by r refeence to the 5tq sectio n of the report that the committee h ad adopted a principle regulating, the size of representa tive districts; and in the 9tll section it was provided, that the same rule should obtain for t he aplportion; meznt of senatodst ri al d iuy t ictsy that is, tha t co u nlties slwal be grouped together so as to make them approximate as soon as may be to the senatorial ratio. Here was a rule whieh they had agreed to lay down for the re gulation of future apportionment. And if it were a sound rule, why not carry it out. Consistency now required this at their hli'ds, for they had already en dor.sed the principle w%ith their votes. Any gentleman turning to the nmap, would perceive that the county of Ottaw{a was as convenient to the counties of Lulcas and Wood, for all their business connections as to the county of Er-ie, or anly ogher counlty; and it always hlad been attached to the county of Wood for represenitative pllrposes.. In regatrd to theC increase of population; all expe rience proved that in commercial places, like San duskzy city, the increase of population was always greater than in the agricultural regions. Mr. HOLjMES said tha~t so Ikr as lhe members ofrtho committee were conlcernled, they had no fe~einlg ill this Smith of Highland, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Stidger, Swan,'I'hompson of Stark and Worthiigton-'-:8. So the Representative Schedule was ordered to be engrossed: The question then being on ordering the Senatorial Schedule to be engrossed: Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 48, navs 49, a s follows: YE,-s —Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Clari, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defianice,Gtegg,Groesbeck,Hard, Holmes, Holt, Hoo man Humi'phreville,Hunt, Johnson, Jones, Kirliwood, Lawrence Larw/ill, Leadlbetter, Loudon, Mlaiion, Mitchell, Norris. Pat terson, Q.uigley. Lanney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Au glaize, Sellers. S tebb lins Stickne, Sti ter, Struble, Sowilt ownshend, Warre,, Way, Wilson and P,residenit-48. NAYs-Messrs. Anire ws, Btar net of sMontgomeray, Barnett of i reble, dnatws, pencipett, Blickensderrter, ropwose of Atherle,s Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Gilett, Grshalti, Gre ay, Green of Ross,tu ti Hadilto n, Hiarlae, tiawlifos,Heiidersoi, Hitclicock ol Getuga d Hortod, Hunter King, Leech, Li,ley, Hason. Mor ehead, M eol tris, Mctwloud Nash, Orton, Otis, t Pecck, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison Sayit} of Highland Snithi of Warren. St a sobery, Staedntol n Stilweelio Swa Ei, Taylor,'T'hompso nc Of Starh, Vance of Butler, Williams, Woodbury and Worthingtoni-49. So the Conventi on refused to order the Sennatorial Schedul e to be eanprossed. Mr. SMITH of Warre rrn a sked to be excused from serving on the s elec t comm ittee "on the schedule," which was agreed to. Mr. RANcIcEY moved that the committee on Revi sroni, ErirolltIwent and Airantgelment be excuse d from att endance duriOng e io s the sessions of the Convention, whe never they might deem it necessary, which was agre ed t o. Mr. KIRKWOOD asked to be excused from serving on the committee on the Schedule, which was agreed to. The PRESIDENT announced Messrs. Nash and Mitchell, to fill the vacancies in the commimtee on the Schedule. Air. VANCE of Butler moved to reconsider the vote by which the Convention refused to engross the Sen atorial Schedule. Mr. REEMELIN, should vole against the recon sideration of the vote by which the engrossment of this senatorial schedule was ordered, for tlie reason that "a burnt child always dreads the fire." He kne-. that this matter would have to go into the Constitution just as it is. It was necessary for the public safety, for it was a iell-knowii principle of law, that the constru.c tion which the law miakers send out with the law it self shall remain as the ttue construction. He. had voted for this report as it is, because he desired to avoid all idea of a borough represenitationi. He would not support any prol)osition which would recognize any other than living, hutian b)einigs,.as the basis ol representation. Either put Hamilton county, and the entire State, into single districts, or avoid the district system altogetlher-he would go either way; but he would not acknowledge any approach to the borough system of representation. Mr. HOLMES said, this table of lines and figures had been drawn up merely for the convenience of mem be rs. It was, certainly, not expected-that it would go inletthe Conlstitution ill its present shape. He hoped' that the reconsideration would prevail f'or the reasosal assigned. The qulestionl being now taken upon thle motion to reconsider, it was decided in the affirmative. Anld then the question recurred again upqn the en grossmrnet of the Senatorial schedule., Mr. STANTON moved to amend the same by strik in~g out the word "Ottawa"' where it occurs in the thir ty second line of the same, and adding the same at the end of the thirty-fifth linle. t t t t s r s t 783 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONnAY, MARCH 3. matter beyond a desire to equalize the population in all the districts, and to have a suitable regard to compact. ness of territory; but that they had consulted the feel ings and wishes of members from tile northwest in the assignmtent which they had given to this county. If gentlemen would but refer to the map of the State they would perceive that the county of Ottawa was much more conveniently districted, as in thle report, than it would be if it were attached to the 35thi district, as proposed by the amendment of the gentleman fromn Logan. Mr. HAWK[NS should vote for this amendment. This Convention was nlow attempting to prevent the recurrence of great evils which had heretofore been experienced in the State in connection with this mat ter of apportionment; and he wished to do so in such a manner as not to violate any rule which they them selves had laid down. The amendment proposed a compliance with one of these rules, by equalizing the number of inhabitants ifl these two districts; and he hoped it would receive the support of those who had taken it upon themselves to say so much about the im portaice of making population the basis of representa tion. He was himrnself ready to vote for the remedy of any similar discrepancy between districts. in any other part of the State, provided it could be had by connec ting contiguous territory. Mr. DORSEY said if gentlemen were to look sinm ply to the column of figures in the schedule, he ac nowledged there might seem to be some little justice in the amendment of the genitleman from Logan; but if they were to look one hair's breadth beyond these figures, they would see that there was not one jot or tittle of right or reason in it. The committee made their apportionenept upon the principle of compactness of territory and equalization of the number of inhabitants. He asked gentlemen to observe, in the first place, that the report of the corn. mittee had every advantage over the amendment upon the score of compactness of territory. And then he proceeded to show, by reference to the table, that there were several other districts in the State which had a larger population than this district, which it was now proposed to reduce. With regard to the objection taken from the fifth sec. tion of the report, which the gentleman from Logan had attempted to apply to this district, the committee well knowing that they could not be made answerable for the changes which might take place il the popular strength; provided in the first place, to make all the districts as nearly equal as they could with respect to population, and having regard, at the tame time, to compactness of territory. And if population should increase or diminish, they had provided a certain rule by which the formation of districts tnight be regulated for the future. He believed he would now state the true reason which had induced the gentleman from Logan to propose this amendment. It was not because he objected to any discrepancy in regard to population. It was not because the mathematical eye of the gentleman was offended for want of compactness of territory in this arrangement; but simply because he had an inkling that by attaching the county of Ottawa to the district of Huron, Erie, and Sandusky, we might happen to make a Democratic district. Now I wish to say plainly, (continued Mr. I).,) that since a question of this nature has been broached, I intend to vote for this district simply for the reasons which I have stated, and for the additional reason that I hope this arrrangement will make a Democratic district. Mr. CHAMBERS said the gentleman hadl been very fair and candid in making this avowal: and he doubted not but that it was for the very reason which the gert tieman assig n ed that the commi ttee h ad m ade this ap. poitntment in the first place. Mr DORSEY (in his seat.) It was not. Mr. CHAMBERS. But the gentleman has affirm. eda that this a rrangement was made with reference to contiguity of territory. Well, if this statement was to be taken, howo did it happen, th a t the co untie s of Ottawa and Wood, which had been always hitched to gether for representative purposes, should be separated now for the puipose of senatorial representation. He wanted that answered. Mr. DORSEY. I will answer it. But Mr. SAWYER, cl',iming the floor, demanded the previous question, and there was a second. The Convention, however, refusing to order the main question. Mr. GREEN of Ross, said the gentleman from Mi ami had told us that compactness of territory was tile rule by which the comnmittee had acted in this matter, without any regard to political results. But now he desired to be inf,rnied whether the'coinmittee when they made this last report, really supposed that they had made it in accordance with the design which the gtntlernani had told us they kept constautly in view. He found, upon looking at the report made by the committee last summier, that the counties of Huron, Erie and Sanidusky were associated together as one sen atorial district; and now he would like to know how it was, that, by attaching the county of Ottawa, the district was better compacted; how it was thereby ren dered a more beautiful district, —more comely to look upon? But he supposed the gentleman had given the true reason which inditucea this change, in the very last words lie iitter,-d. That was the doctrine -- Mr. DORSEY (irt iis seat.) Titat is the doctrine, sir. Mr. GREEN. Well then. I am done Mr. HITCHCOCK, of Geauga. The gentleman from Miami, after having said the committee had no views of policy in connection with this arrangement, turns round and, before he closes his remarks, as si'ns that as the great object which he had in view. M'r. DORSEY. [In his seat.] Not that. Mr. HITCHCOCK. The gentleman might not have said it in those verw ords, but no mortal man, hear ng the declaration, could have understood it diffe~' ently. It was amusing to hear the various explanations of the Chairman and his armor bearer upon this subject. The Chairman had said that the committee cared nothing at all about the political character of the dis trict, but that they merely consulted the wishes of two or three delegates from that section of the State, although, therefore, we had been informed that the committee had acted wholly without consultation with anybody. But now, when we came to the scrivener, the speaker and writer for the committee, we had a different account. The gentleman had alledged that this arrangement, was necessary, in order to conform to the rule which they had laid down for the grouping of the counties. If any gentleman would look at the map, he would see a fine district of compact territory, taking the counties of Mercer, Auglaize, ~anwrert, Paulding, and Defiance, clear to the north-westernl boundary, and then taking a set off from that. There was one district composed of compact territory. And then, again, the committee had taken the county of Ottawa, which had always been connected with Wood county, and included in the same Senatorial district, and, for the sake of comnpactniess of territory, had attached it to the district of Y_uron, Erie and Sandus. kRy.:Now, he challenged any man to take the map and go back through all the history of the State 784 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MON AY, MARCH 3. honor of being returned to his place by a majority of 350. If it were of any avail to express his own personal feeling upon this subject, hlie would say that for himself, he would rather be placed in a minority district. It was true, as he had before said, t ha t the business assoc iations of the county of O ttawa were with the peopl e of Srpenatve andusy city, and that wherever Sandusky went th ey ought to go fo r a ll t he p urposes of repret sentation;bu by the rule Sand usky was already entitled to one representative in the House, and Wood county being smaller, it was expedient ihat Ottawa should be attached to the latter for repre sentative purposes. - He was surprised to hear the gentleman from Mus. kitigum, (Mr. CnIAMaBRS,) interpose an objection to this arrangeme hent, when his own district contained a population of nearly three thousand more, than would be, contained in tihe dist rict of Huron, Erie, Sandusky and Wood. Mr. NASH still insisted that this was a mo st singu a. la r arrangement bv which the county of Otta wa was artached to one county for represe ntative purposes and to another for Senatorial pu rposes; and also that this county was attached to tile Hudror district in violation of a rule, which the Commiiittee themselves had laid down, by whi ch a they we requir ed to attach this county, to that conti guou s Senatorial district whic h contained the sm allest number o f i nhabitants. By this rule the county of Ottawa should have been attacled to the district of Wood, Lucas, &c., for the population of this district was some 3000 les,- than t he district of Huron, Erie, and S andusky. If the Com mittee had laid down a rule of apportionment w hich was to opera te, irres pective of party, all he asked of them was to stick to it. Mr. MITCHELL ridiculed the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Logan, holding up and describing the shape of the district it proposed upon the map. He affirmed that no injustice had been done to the whig party in this scheme of apportionment, because the democratic districts generally contained the largest number of inhabitants. But those gentlemen, perhaps, had need to catch at every little objection of this sort, and to gain any political advantage which they might, by this report, when the American people should come to know the fact, that their great object was to protect capital to the exclusion and oppression of labor, they would not leave them with so much as a corporal's guard. Mr. OTIS said there were two arguments, if argnments they could be called which had been urged against this amendment. The one was adduced by the gentleman from Erie, [Mr. I'AYLOR,] derived from the fact that there were some five or six districts in the State whiich were larger than this. But this could not be taken as a good reason against making the proposed equailization of p,pulation in these two districts. He held that the amendment ought to be adopted as a mor. al duty, since it was admitted that population was the only true basis of Senatorial rep'eseutation. The other objection to the anirndmeat W,s; taken by the gentleman from Miamli, [Mr. Doaszv,] who had put it upon the ground! th~at the gentleman from Logan had made this motion from politi al motives; arnd therefora, with motives of the samie character, he would resist it. But n~ow, his friend from Logan, and those who acted with him, inl this matter, were very much in the situation of the lamib, ill tilefable, when the wolf, which came to drink at the same streamn above him, complained that the lamb hlad riled the stream, and was going to take vengeance upon hinm f.~r the offenice. Buit what buinetess had we to leek at the motives of apportionments, and find a more excellent gerrymanider than this. There was no doubt but the natural connection of Ottawa was with Wood county, but they could not go directly from Ottawa into Erie county without crossing the water. The gentleman had certainly to go out of his way to get this county into the Erie district, and thereby to make a difference between the two adjoining districts of 6,000 inhabitants. And now the gentleman had told us plainly that hlie made this change in order to constituite another democratic district, and he had told us that he would vote for this apportionment with that view-actuated by that principle. God deliver him from men professing such principles. Mr. DORSEY. What had he said? The gentleman from Logan, [Mr. STANTO.N,] had offered his amendment. giving no other reason for it than that he hoped thereby to secure another Whig district. Mr. STANTON. [Interposing.] The gentleman was incorrect in ascribing that motive. Mr. DORSEY, refusing to yield the floor, continu ed. Inasmuchl as he believed this amendment t o have be en offered with a view of this kind, he inte nded, by the remark he made, to meet the mind of umethat e leian witl h acounter irnd. Was thereablything dishonestt in th at, that it should call forth the solenn prayer of the gentleman from Geauga, [Mr. HITCHCOCe,] to b e delivered from all such men? It might be that gentl e pmen on that side of the house had reason to be afiai d of men who were in the habit of expressing their opinions honestly. aut he had been a sked w hy thi s county of O ttawa was not attached to the Huro n d istrict, in the re port which was made l ast summer? Was the gentleman from Logan really so litt le acquainted with the his,tor of this apportionment as to render it necessary for him tos ask a question of this kind? Did not that gentleman know, that when the committee met last summer, they were furnished with an incorrec t table of the census of Ohio, and that they acted then upon information that the State contained a hundred thousand inhabitants more than had appeared from the official returns? And did not the gentleman also know, that ill the first arrangement, there were but thirty-three districts, whilst there were thirty-five proposed in the pres ent report? The gentleman from Miuskingum, [Mr. CHAeBERS,] had asked him, how it happened that the committee had connected Ottawa with Wood county for Representati ve purposes and not for Senatorial purposes? To this he repied, let any gentleman look at the map and no unfairness of political miiotive could possibly be ascribed to the committee. It was impossible for the county of Ottawa to be connected with any other county than Wood for Representative purposes. But it seemed, really, that gentlemen were determined to find some political gerrymander in this arrangement;. They looked for nothing else, and all their amendments were offered with that view, exclusively. Mr. TAYLOR said the city of Toledo was, in all respects as much a commercial pLace as Sandusky city; 80, giving to the gentleman fromn Loganl the full force of his argument, to wit: that population was mostlike1y to increase ill commercial districts, the probabilities of an increase of population were, ill this respect, equally balanced in the two districts. It was true, that he bad been consulted with others, in relation to the arrangement of this district; but with respect to the political aspect of the question, the gentleman of the committee would hear him witness, that he was entirely inidifierent as to that. He repremted the counties of H~uron and Eries and he had the' 785 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCHII 3. gentlemen here? It was a rule of law that, if the will best equalize the populationii,and suit the wishes of judgment was right, no question could be raised about the mrnembers representing them. the motive, and this was a pure question of ri,,ght. He These changes will only give oneWhig district more considered that this amendment was so correct and tha.i the report of the Cnmmittee. proper and reasonable, that it should be acceded to, The residue of the report I do not propose to inter without a word, by'hose having the control ill this fere with. matter. Mr. President, while I should hold myself forever de Mr. SAWYER here madle another denmand for the gra ted if [ could descend so low as to attempt to make previous question; and there was a second,'a political gerrymander in a fundamental law; I hold it But the Convention again refused to order the main to be my duty to so far examine the political bearings quesliou. of the report of the Committee as to see that it does no The question then being on the amendment of Mr. i'sjustice to the party to which I belong. All I ask is that STANroN. I somnething like fair and even-handed justice shall be Mr. HOLMIES demanded a division. dione, and that the voice of the people shall not not be ~TIhe question then beinig on striking out the word'.tifled by an unjust and iniquitous apportionment. "Ottawa,"| I may as well say frankly, that I have no expectation Mr. CHAMBERS demanded the yeas and nays, that this or any other amendment will prevail. The which were ordered and resulted yeas 43, nays 55, as votes taken to-day indicate that it is the intention of follows: the majority to make a Constitution which no mem YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, ber on this side of the hall can support either here or Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of at the ballot-box. The majority have determined to Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, have a party Constitution, and to rely upon their party Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Gralam, Gray, Green of Ross, adto y the pat Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcoce; ol Geauga. Horton fo its adoption by the people. Hunter Larsli,asorn,M'otrehea "aMor ris McClt:oud,N asl lN, It is therefore important for us to place upon the re Otis, Peck, Perkin.- Scott of Harrison, Smith of Hightand. Smith of Warren. Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Vance of cord our objections to this apportionmnent, not only Butter, W illiams an Woobry-43 that the people may judge of them, but that you may f.NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney,Clarkl, Dorsey, Ewing, not be able to plead ignorance, and say that you would Farr, Forbes. Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, have remedied them if they had been pointed out to Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, humphreville'tlunt Johnso;,,Jones, King K irkwood, Lawrence, Larwill Leech, you. Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, lvlanon, Mitchell, Norris Orton, The gentleman from Knox attempted to show that Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Saw- the Whigs had the advantage in the population of the yer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, districts. le is calculating without ost. The Struble. Swift, Swan, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Tows - bend, Way, Warren, Wilson, Worthington and President facts and figures will not bear him out. It is utterly -55. vain and useless for gentlemen to stand up here and So the motion to strike out was rejected. say that this Senatorial apportionment does justice to Mr. LEECH moved to amnend the "Senatorial the Whigs of the State. Schedule;" by striking out the word "Tuscarawas," i Taking the Governor's vote in 1848 as the test of the where it occurs in connection withi the word "Coshoc. strength of parties in the State, this apportionment ton, and inserting, ia lieu thereof, the word'Holmes.' gives the democrats nineteen districts and leave sixteen Mr. DORSEY was opposed to the amendment; he to be divided between the Whigs and free soilers. If would like the gentleuna from Guernsey to let us any gentlemen doubts it, I will givs him the districts know what he was going to do with the counties of and he can examine for himself. They are as follows: Wayne and Tuscarawas? DEMOCRATIC DISTRICTS, WHIG DISTRICTS. Mr. LEECH, (in his seat.) He would leave Tusca- Hamilton county........3-..3 Montgo mery a.d Preble.... I rawas and Wayne entirely with the gentleman fromi il'arren and Butter......... (reene, Clinton and Fayelte 1 Mfiami. Clermont and Brown.............................I Ross and Highland......... Mr DORSEY Aas much obligd to the gentlean Adms, Piklie, Scioto, and Clarkli, Champaign and Mad Mr. DORSEY was much obliged to the gentleman, Jako......... Jack~~~~~l' son..............Ilo............. but he had work enough to do without this assign- Athens, Hocking and Fair- Miami Dearlke and Shelby.. ment of the gentleman from Guernsey. If the corn fied..................... 1Logan, Uton, Hardin and raittee were to have a couple of districts torn up in Frankliin and Picklaway. Mar....io Knox and ~ ~~1 Mairion............I.. this way, they might as well have the whole aippoc Knox and Morrow.......1 Delaware and lickiing...... this way, they might as w ell have the aho pper-I Coshocton and Tuscarawvras lBelmont and llarr son...... tionment torni up at once. Guernsey end Monroe...... I Astabula, I aie and Geauga I Mr. STANTON asked for a division of this ques- Ca'rroll and Stark.........l.Cuyahoga.. ~~~t~~~~~~~~io~n. gJeffersol and Columbia-na... IPortage and Stu mit.......... tion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~Trumbull and Maho'I.g....I I Medin,a a nd Lora~in........ And then, the first question being on striking out, Wayne and Bilnes......... IHuron, Erie, Sandusky and theword "Tuscarawas:" Ashland and Richland....... Ottawa................... 1 Mr. STANTON. Mr. President, I ask a division of s eneca, Crawford and Wy- Lawrence, Gallia Mciges and unide r..........o ito............ I the question, and.that the vote may be first taken on M id.rcer,Allen,.Auglaize,Van Washington ati dMorgan.. striking out. If the motion'o strike out prevails, I Meirt. Pauldling, Defiance uslingum and Perry.. 1 shall then move to insert Licking in the place of Tus- and Williams............ 1 carawas. I agree that geutietneii have a righ t to linow Hancock, Wood, Lucas, Ful- Total Whig Districts... US what is to be done with the other districts,-that are af- to, Henry and Putnam.. 1 fected by the amendment, before they vote upon this Total Dem. Districts...19, motion. If this motion prevails, I propose to follow itII motioln. If this niotion prevails, I propose to follow it; Tested by the Governor's election last, Fall, this reup with a series of aitiuldmelite, which will equalize port gives the Democrats 22 Senators, the Whigs 12, the population and cihauge the political complexiol ofl and the Free Soilers 1. but one district. I shall propose to add Harrisoii to At both these elections the Democracy were in a T'usc'arawas, wihich will iciake a Wiug district.Ithen minority of the popular vote. Taking,~ the election of propose to put Jeflleon to Belmaotit, Mahoninv to Co- 1849 as the best test, and the most fa~vorable to the lumbiana, Asitabula to Truibiull, Lake to Geauga and Democracy it willbe seen that thenWiigs carried Portage, Suinnlt to Medina, Lorail to Hfuron, Erie to the districts composed of the counties of Delaware Saidusky and Seneca, Crawford to Wyandot, Marion and Licking, and of Huron, Erie, Sandusky and and Hardin, Delaware t~o Uloo and Logan, and such Ottawa, wshich there is no probability they could now combination of the small counties in the North west, as carry. On the other hand the Democrats then carrie 786 OtIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, MARCH 3. s deformity. Gentlemen no doubt suppose it gives them y the control of the Senate for all time to comne. This a e may be true. But no one can predict with any cer taint ty what will be its political complexion ten years d hence. But It is based upon unsound principles, and s therefore cannot fail to work injustice. But of one thing gentlemen may rest assured-there s is no one thing tlhat you can insert in this (;onstitution e that will make it so odious to reflecting and consien tious men of all parties, as a political Garrym-tnder. L- Whatever may be men's political opinions or pr'ejudit ces, their moral sense revolts at injustice, even, where nt it is inflicted by their friends upon their political oppo f nents. Fairplay is a jewel that is prized by the multie tu6e above all prie. ' But if gentlemen are determined to stake the desti - nies of their party upon such au issue, upon their heads be the consequences. t The previous question was now demanded. ' And there was a second. The question then being, shall the main question k be now put? it wall agreed to. ' The question then being on the amendment pro. e posed by Mr. DORSEY: o Mr. COLLINGS demanded the yeas and nays, -' which were ordered and resulted-yeas 54, nays 43, f as follows: Yats-c-Messrs. Blair, Cabill, Case of Licking Chaney,Clark s Cook. Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gyreene of DefianrQe, n Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphres ville, Hunt. Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Loudon, Manon, Mittetl, Norr, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reenimlin,Riddle, Rioll, Sawyer, e Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbius, Stickney, gtidger, Str. s ble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, f Vauce of gutler, Warren, Way, Wilson, and President-54. NA,rs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of l Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, E wart, D Florence, Giliett. Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, r Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hlunter, la. iarsh, Lidey, Mason, Morehead. Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Williams. ' Worthington and Woodbury-43. f So the amendmentwas agreed to. - The question being on ordering the resolution to be engrossed as amended: - Mr. STANTON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 53, nays 44 -as follows: s YAs- Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill. Case of Licking, t Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes G'ene ot' Deia ice, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hlard, Hotmes, Holt, Hoot man, Humphreville, 1Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, ItLawrence, Larwill, Leadbetter, London, Manon. Mitchelt, N or, is, Patterson, Qtuigley, Ranney, Reamelin, lliddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Staebbins, Stickney Stlid ger, Strtible, Swan, Swift, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson and tPresident-53. t NAYS —Messrs Atidrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgo,mery. t Barnett of Preble, B;tes. Bennett, Blickensderife;-, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, C,ambers,Collings Curry, Ewart, w Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Larsh. Leech, Lidey, Mason, Morehead, Morris, ecCloud, Na sh, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of High land, Smith ot Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stiltwell,Taylor, Worthington and Woodbury-44. So the Senatorial schedule was ordered to be en -grossed. And on motion, the report was ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday, the 5th inst. Nor. LARne LL mtde ed chat the d tnt ention adjourn, which was disagreed to. LTEM-ERANXCE REPORT —PEN CLAUSE,. On motion of Mr. LAWRENCE, the convention re solved itself into committee of the whole, Mr. PER:IK/NS in the chair. the F ranklin an d Pickawayr districts, and the Adam and Sc iot o d istricts, which tie Whitgs miglt possibl. carry now. But of the sixteen districts then carrion by the Wiigs, it is certain tha the Ashtbule district the M edina and Lorain district, and the Seummit an Portage distr icts wo uld be carried by the Free Soiler o' the Denmocrats. The utmost the Whig party can expectunder thi apportionalent, is,i3 districts, unless ther e should b l some unlooked for revolution il l public opinion. If they should carri v the Sta te bv a popular majori ty of 25,000, th ey would probab ly still be in a mi nority in the Senate. It p ill also be recollected tha at both of these elections that are taken as tests 0 the political co mplexion of th is app ortionment, the Democracyn wnere in a minori ty of th e p opuarvot e Ford waselec,ted in 1848, and Judne Wood was elect ed by a plurality onlv last f all. Tile Whigs ought therefore in an apportionmen tested by thesf e elections to havet e the odd Senator inll stea d of having 2 and a fractiont overonea third. Gentlemen will recollect that there is no guess wor alout this matter, but that it is a mathematical de nionistration, which no sophistry or evasion can escape from, or get rid of. It may also be well enough t( say that the sixteen Whig districts contain an aggre gate population of 907,983, while the nineteen Demo cratic districts contain an aggregate population o 4,072,975. This leaves the Dernocracy thr'ee Senator for a population of 164,992, aftex assignlning to ther the same population in sixteen districts that there i, in the sixteen Whig districts. Thlus, while the ratic of the Whig districts is 56,749, the Democracy hav then three extra Districts with a ratio of 54,997. Thi may be considered no great matter, but the result or it is to disfranchise 5256 Whigs. If this was a mat ter of necessity, I should not b~e disposed to complain of it; but it is not. But there is no difficulty in sc arratiginig the districts, as to give them a full and fail representation There is another view of the subject -By this report the Whig counties of Warren, Athens Tuscarawx,as, Carroll, Jefferson and Trumbull; making six Wihig counties with an aggregate population ot 152,867, are swallowed up by being attached to De mocratic counties On the other hand, the 6nly Demno cratic counties that are swallowed,p by being attached to Whig counties, are Shelby, Marion and Per ry, with an aggregate population of 47,25 i. In tihis computation I have omitted several counties on both sides that are inl doubtful districts, in which -it is very'doubtftl whether the whale will swallow Jonah of Jo.Iah swallow the whale. Notwithstanding the unfairness of this scheme, I should not have been disposed to make any serious opposition to it, if the Convention had adopted the single district systemn.'rie principle is a sound one, and I should have been willing to trust it, to work out correct results, notwithstanding disadvantages under which it would have been applied. But the Conivention have rejected itatid adopted the villainous system of double districts in which thevoice of large masses is stifled by being thrown into election districts-with still larger masses of different political principles.. But even this is not the worst feature of the s-herne. It is not only unjust and unfair in itscombinations, and iniquitous o account of having double districts, but-it is to be pert petual and unalterable. No change can be made in the districts at the dew conatal apportionments, unless it shall happen that two Counties that now form a district shall each have a sufficientn population to extitli it to a Sienator. }hit if any one or three or more counties shall on a re-apportionment be entitled to more than one Senator, they must all be elected in common. -It perpetuates its own 51 78-i OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, MARCH 3. the doors of the trade entirely-leaving the trade in all quantities benea th a qu art just as it stands nonw, with reference to a ll quantities above that measure. But he could tell that gentlemran th at goo d l awyers were unable to agree upon what should be the interpretaoption ofo lin a the proposition For lookin at the speeche s of the gestlemtan from Gallia, the gentleman Mfrom Logan, and t he ge ntleman fromt Guernsey-they seem to understan d the prop ositio n as a grant o f power to the Legislature bly which the traffic might be prohibited. Mr. LAWRENCE. [In hi s seat.] No, sirs I never said that. Mr. MITCHELL. Why, the gentleman sai d as much as that but just be fore he, took his seat. He had but just said that he did no t want t he traffi legalized by lice nse. He maintained that the construction of the -enitletlemain from Jefferson, (AMr. BATES,) was the only just and proper construction, and he desired to secure. that, by the modification which he had proposed. But, so long as the proposition remained susceptible of two constructions, it was plain that votes miglibe improperly obtained in favor of it. Mr, COLLINGS, said there seemed to be a difference of opinion in regard to the true course which ought to be pursued by the friends of Ternperance: but he did not understand how there could be any difference of opinion in regard to the meaning of the words herein reported. We knew that in several of the Judicial districts of the States, no license was now granted. The effect of license, was that no man should sell spirituous liquors at a less quantity than a quart, without being subject to a fine; and he supposed that the effect of isle adoption of this Report would be simply to remove that prohibition. Mr. LAWRENCE thoaght there would still renmnri, after taking away the sanction of the law, a small difference between this traffic and ordinary merchandizing. But still he was willing to take no notice of that in law. No man was required to take out a licenf,o for selling his horse. No)w he wished the traffic in spirituous liquiors to be left in this way. Take away the license law, and leave it in the power of the legislature to pass such laws as might prevent the evils arising from this traffic. Mr. MIT(CHELL'S amendment was now rejeted. Mr. MANON proposed further to alnenjd the Report, by striking out the latter clause of the proposition, to wit: these final words,,but the'General Assembly mav, by law, provide against evils resulting therefrom." Mr. LAWRENCE feared that the construction which the striking out of this clause would give to the proposition, would prevent the legislature from passing any law for the suppression of the evils growing out of the traffic. But still he should vote for striking out. Mr. HAWKINS, said as this matter was to go up to the high court of the people, upon an appeal, he would like to see it go up just exactly in the shape in which it had been presented to this Convention. He hoped the amendment would not be made. Mr. TAYLOR hoped the amendment would not prevail. H~e should forever contend that this clause proposed now to be stricken out, was a limitation upon the power of the General Assemblyr, to te offectc that they may nlot prohibit the tiraffic, but that they' may paiss laws pro~vidling aga)inst the evils resulting from the existing traffic. Somle time ago he had put this construction upon the clause, and he was pleased to find himnslf sus, tained by the newspapers. lMr. SAWYER thought there was a fair and honor. On motion by Mr. SAWYER, the committee took up the consideration of the report of the select committee on Temperance, submitted by Mr. LAWRENCE on the 26th of February; which was read by the chairman, and is as follows: Resolved, That at the next general election, and at the sane time when the votes of the electors shall be taken for the adoption or rejection of the new Constitution, the additional section, in the words following: "No license to traffic in intoxicating liquors shall hereafter be granted in this State, but the General Assembly may by law, provide against evils resulting therefrom," shall be separately submitted to the electors of ihis State for adoption or rejection in form following, to wit: A separate ballot may be given by every person, having the right to vote for the new Constitution, to be deposited in a separate box. Upon the ballots gi ven for the adoption of the sai(d separate amendment, shall be written or printed, or partly written andprinted, the words, "license to sell intoxicating liquors, Yes,,' and upon the hallots given against the adoption of the said separate amendment, in like manner the words, "'License to, sell intoxicating liquors, No." If at the said election, a majority of all the votes given for and against the said separate amendment, shall contain the words, "License to sell intoxicating liquors, No," then the said separate amendment shall be a separate section of article - of the Constitution. in full fo.ce and effect, any thing contained in the Constitution to the contrary notwithstanding. Resolved, That the last preceding resolution be caused to be published in the manner specified in the resolution of the Oonvention, relative to the notice of the time and manner of voting f-r the new Constitution. Mr. MANON proposed to amend by striking out from the firstline of the report these words, "at the next general election and," so that it would read: " Resolved, That at the same time when the votes of the electors shall be taken," &c. The amendment was agreed to by unanimous consent. Air. MITCHELL moved to amend by striking out in the second paragraph the word "grateted," and illserting in lieu thereof the word "rlequired." He made this motion for the purpose of relieving the terms of the section as much as possible, from obdtion and difficulty on the score of ambiguity. Mr. LAWRENCE hoped the motion of the gentleman from Knox would not be agreed to. The report submitted a very plain proposition which any gentleman could understand upon the first reading. Even an ordinary schoolboy could comprehend its meaning perfectly. All that it meant was that this traffic should not be licensed by law-should not be legalized. And that was all he wanted. For himself, although many of the friends of temperance objected he would be perfectly willing and satisfied to dispense wholly with the latter clause of the proposition. The amendment of the gentleman from Knox, instead of removing objections and difficulty, on the wcore of amnbiguity, would only make the proposition still more ambiguous. Mr. MANON also hoped that the motion of the gentleman from Knox would not prevail. And he gave notice that if no other gentleman would, he in tended to move to strike out the latter clause of the proposition. The proposition would then express plainly and unequivocally what it has upon its face, and nothing more nor less could be made out of it by any attempt at construction. Mr. MITCHELL was astonished at the saying of the gentleman from Guernsey, (Mr. LAWaRENCE,) that an ordinary schoolboy could have no difficultyr in understanding this proposition) when the gentleman eould not but remember that very respectable schol ars-of this body had been unable to agree upon its constructiond pd. The gentleman from Jefferson, (Mr. BATES,) had un derstood the design of the proposition to th row op. M 788 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TUES'iA, MIARCH 4. - Ross, Hard, Hawkins. Hendersosi, Hitchcock of Geauga, e Jones, King, Larsh, Leadbetter, Moriis, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Roll, sawyer, Scott of Harrisosi, and Smith of ' Highland-31. So the amendment was disagreed to. The question then being upon agreeing to the third amendment, to wit: In se ction three, after the word "profits," in the fourth line, insert: "or money loaned at interest in any mannier whatever." t MIr. KIRKWOOD. I amni not able to foresee what twill be the effect of the section or of the amendment, because.l do not profess to be acquainted with the mode of doing business by banks. I should like to hear from the members of the committee their views upon the subject, and also from other gentlemen who are acquainted with the business of banking. Mr. REEMELIN. I was not present inthe commita tee when this section was adopted-if I had been, I should have voted against it. It may be right in its application uinder the present system of taxation, but if the system should ever be changed, it would be wrong, and work injustice. The source from which the banks derive their proft its is their notes and bills discounted. If they nmake money by any other means, I do not know it. The object to be attained is to tax them as individuals are taxed —no more and no less. Mr. HORTON. As a member of the committee that made this report, I feel it a duty which I owe to myself to say a few words in relation to what l bei lieve will be the effect of its provisions. The second section provides that all moneys and credits or invest mrents in joint stock comrpaies, State and United States stocks, or otherwise, shall be taxed as other property is taxed. The effect of this is that all who own stock in a bank will be taxed upon it, in the sanme manner as other property is taxed. In this manner the stock is taxed once. But in order to do up the business of taxing' banks the more effectu. ally, the third section pr ovides that the capital, notes and bills discounted, surplus, conltingent, fund and undivided profits, without any deduction, shall be taxed in the same miianiser as the property of individo uals is taxed. This section taxes the capital stock the second time, as an aggregate. And that is n(t all. The notes and bills discounilted, which also re present the capital, are taxed, and the surplus fund, j which appears in the formn of notes and bills discoiun ted, also a part of the capital, pays its tax under that form. Then, again, under the second section, the real and personal estate, forminrg also a part of its capital stock, pays taxes in the form of real and personal es tate; so that the result of the provisions of the report is that the capital of the State invested in banks will pay taxes three times ove —first, in the halinds of its holders, second, as thecapital stock of the bank taxed in the name of the bank, and third, in the form of notes and bills discounted, surplus, contingent fun(d, undivide-d profits and real and personal estate. And, now, in order that there shall be no possibili ty of escape, the convention in committee has gone on still further to enumerate, as subjects of taxation, "money loaned at interest in any manner whatever," B which, if adopted, will prevent every bank in the State from putting its own bills in circulation, aud in G fact, effectually wind up the affairs of every bank ill the State. - Mr. OTIS. Gentlemen on the other side of the hall R say that this subject of bank taxation is one which they do not understand, and about which they desire Bnformation; and that they wish to tax bank capital only to the same extent that the property of individ' uals is taxed. If this is really what they desire there ' e no difficulty ill arriving at it. It is only necessary able understandingamongst all parties, that this prop ositioin was to go to the people exactly in the shape in which it was reported. He was willing to adhere to that understanding; and therefore should go against any and every amendment. Mr. BATES said: The gentleman from Auglaize (Mr. SAWYER,) was certainly correct. Aid although there were many objections against allowing th e proposition, to go into the constitution, yet, so long as its friends entertained a different opinion, he considered that it was due to t hem and to the cause, than they should have an opportunity of presenting the question to the people just as it is. He would therefore move that the Comm itt e e aris and report the bill to the Convention. This motion was agreed to. And thereupon, the Committee rose and the Chairmnan reported, that the committee had had under consideration the Report of the Select Committee on the subject of Temperance, and had instructed himt to report the same back with one amendment. The question then being on agreeing to the amendmeent of the Committee of the Whole, to wit: strike out of the first lille, the following words: "at the firs general election." Mr, WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being, "shall the main question be now nut" it was agreed to. The questran first being on agreeing to the amendment of the Committee of the Whole, On motion of Mr. GREEN of Ross, the Convention adjourned. ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-NINTH DAY. TUESDAY, March 4,1851.I 9 o'clock, P.M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. iThve PRESIDENT laid befo re the Convention a c ommunication from Alphonsoe Taft, t endering an invitation to the members and officers of the Convention to visit the House of Refuge. Also, atr invitation from L. M. Lawson, M D., to attend othe exercises of the Medical College of Ohio, ,on the evening of the fourth instant. Mr. LOUDON, from the standing committee on Finance and Taxation, to which had been recommitted Report Number Two, of the comnmittee on that subject, reported the same back with sundry amuend-' mnents. The question being on agreeing to the first amuen(lment proposed by the committee, to wit: In section two, after the word "taxation," insert the word "personal," It was agreed to. The question then being on the second amendment, to wit: In section two, strike out the words "the heads of each family," and insert, in lieu thereof, the words "individuals:" Mr. BLICKENSDERFER demanded the yeas and nays, which were',ordered, and resulted-yeas 59, nays 31, as follows: Y.As-Messrs. Archbold, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney Curry, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Graham, Gray, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Harlan, Holmes, Holt Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Kirk wood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Marion, Mitchell, McCor. mick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranhiey, Reeemelin, Riddle, Scott of Auglalze. Sellers, Smith of Warren, SLebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-59. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Cahill, Clark, Collings, Ewart Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Green o" .789 'OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —TuEsDAy, MA,'cti 4. to incorporate a general declaration to that effect into' the Constitution, and leave the details to the General Assembly. Their actions, however, do not comport at all with their declarations, for while they profess a desire to tax banks only as individuals are taxed, th eg are endeavoring to fix in the Constitution a rule for taxing banks altogether different from the rule for taxing individuals, and which, if adopted, will cornp.,A bank capital to pay more than twice the amount of taxes paid by any othar property in the State. Whether iiitepd(ed or not, the section now under consideration is directly calculated to destroy the banks. Let us look at what the majority on this floor have al'ready done, and what they still propose to do, on theI d subject of taxing banks, and see whether this stateinent is sustained or not. Aside from the report now under consideration, the report oi corporations, which has been adopted by this Convention, provides that the property of corporations shall be taxed in the same manner as the property of individuals. This provision embraces banks as well as other corlorations and places all kinds of corporations and individuals upon the same footing. In addition to this, the Convent-ion has just adopted the second section of the report under consideration which provides that individuals owning stock in joint stock companies shall be taxed therefor as they are taxed for monies, credits or other property. This of course includes bank stock, and r(equires the owner of it to list it for taxation as money at interest. What next? After having thus provided that indiv iduals owning stock in banks should be taxed therefor, the majority of the Committee o n finance and taxation proceeded to report the section iiow under consideration for taxing banks! The see tion as originally reported required that banks should be taxed upon their capital stock, paid in, their notes and bills discoiintcd, their undivided profits, and their real and personal estate, deducting therefrom tlieircirculiation. If the Coimmittee knew any thiug about the niatter referred to them,'they n st have kioo n that they u-ere not only requiring the banks to be taxed over and over again on the same property, but, also requiring thom to be taxed on the monies de psited with tliemi by individuals for safe keeping. 'he real and personal estate of a bank, necessary to carry on the business of banking, are taken from its capital tock and constitute a part of it. The undi vided profits, whieh are retained to meet loss'es, are not searted from the other funds or mionies of the banks but coiustitute a part of the notes mid bills discountied, and the capital stock paid ii: circulatioion and deposits coinstitte the residue.'Who can fail to see that if You tax the notes and bills discountted and thle capLi al stock F-pecifically you tax the capital stock twice; so if yiiii tax ihe notes and bills discounted and the undiv ided profits twice; and so if voui tax the capital stock aid the real and personal estate specifi cally, you tax the real and personal estate twice af When this sectioT of the report was inder consid,eration ini the Coniventioni a few days,, ag,o, t'hegete man from M[iai[/r. Do-Rsray,] moved tostieiot -d insert in lieu1 Of it a provision that, baniks should be taxed iupon the(ir notes and. bil~ls dis,co.unte(d, s,ur plus cotinentfund anid undivided p roiswihu Capital st ock pa id ias..............to. h n,6l1, 00 Un~divided profits................... 289,086 00 Re al and persoonsd ol erptate,...........y 2r a4e118 ton Notes andiBills discounted.r n......... t0,546,t 8 0t An gregat e bas i s of taxation. t........ 15,64,548 00 Deduict circulation............ 7,82i9,051-o 0t Actual basis of taxation.......... $7,811,49 600) By the section at originally reported, then, tiier Stat e Bank of Ohio woald be redquired to paysupu $7,811,496 154 m or e t h an the capit al stoc k, orerafd tertoivided prbtfi ts combined. This excess is obtained by taxing the deposits, whecry v amou it o ted t o $ thi,361,99:. 00, and taxingtwice os t t he udivided profits, and real and personal ebttate and a part of the capitata at stock. The amendment of th~e gentleman from Maiai, rec tires the State Baink to be tax edon its notes ad'bilrla Firomcounted and undivided prof its, i weithou ny dedu tti on. These amounlt to $10i,835,174 O{llL-and wbichi i.4 consideriably more than doutble- the amroun,t of thie capital stock ardidndiv~ided pfofits! Aniniidiviguiatl~osi-. ing money would be taxed uipon his capital and und~i. vided profits, and not upon hlis deposits.S I wish to hav e bank gtock taxed according to ils actual value., as the property of individuals is taxed' a iiEi neither more nor lest; TIhis rule would embrace tit, capital stock, the, undivided profits on hand, anid theo value of the franch-ise or t~he privilege which bainkfs enijoy under their chiarters,, all of which go to formn t,e actuial value of bank stock. Th~is rule is, already twie,c secured, first in the report Dn corpo~rat!ons, andit next in the second section of itlis repo,rt. Anad now after tax ing bank.-tocks in the hiand~s of its owinerq as the p)rop) ert'y of individuals li taxed, in the seconad section of' this reidort, it is still proposed, ini the section nr consideration, to tax the same~stock over again[ as the p~roperty of the baink, utnd thiat too at Fmuch mtore thias double its actu,al value!! I am un~willinjg to believe. that the committee and tile gentleman from,Mi aiiii intended so great an'absuirdity aind so gross tr,, outrage,. The propcalfitoni is wholly'no~itn wii,) their professions. J wish to believe —-charity leads mie, to bel~ie've —bs! they do niot undterstand h[it, subjoeLt Mr. DORSEY. I hope to shiow in a few moments;, that the moede of banik ta~xation as provided in the amnendmenit whic-h I offered is not s-o un~jus~t as it is rep) resented by the gentleman fromr I%eig,,;, [ IV. flop.-orq," and Su mmit, (,Mr. Oiis ) Of course if there is an in. congruity in the report, by whjich th,.y are tazed on)ce~ in one section, a~nd againD It another, I do n,ot hiold n-,y selfresponsible for it; but as; I untder-stand it, the ~thirtt section is tile onie that regulates the taxation of tlhose institutions. That section provides thiat the Genie~rat As~semb~ly sliall provide by laiw for taxing the eapital stock paid in, the notes anid bills discounted, surplus COT cotitgedt funDd and,'undiv-ided profits, without any de,.[ductioni of all batiks now in existence or h~erea~fte-r to be created in the',State, in the samne mnanner as the prop.;erty of individuals is taxed.- if it it; objected to th~is provision, that its cffec! is to tax the same property twice, in as much, as the notes and bills di~scounited I i 0t t 1t i i i 790 showing the condition of tlie;ban'L-,,i on the fir.,3t M'on - day of,Maly 1850, whic ba,, been placed in irty band;g, I am able to,,;bow tbe practical operation of the see,i ion a-, orifiii-,illy reported, and also as amended oi motion of the ger,,tleroaT) fl-OM 31'aitii a rule'for taxing tlte banks, so f, —ir as -t relates tt) e State Bank of Ohio. Capital stock paid iii.............. 01) Ui;divided prfits.................. 289,086 00 Real and personal e-tate............ 2,.)4,) 1 8 f)U Notes and'Bills discounted.......... 10,546,OP-8 00 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-Tui:so.B.y, MARcH 4. public burdens than are borne by individuals, and the only object of all these prov;sions is to secure that they shall bear just as much and no more.. I believe that itris perfectly just and' right that the banks of the State should be taxed upon their notes anid bills discounted, and that element at least should suter into and form a part of the suin upon which the assessment is levied. And I wish to direct particular attention to the fact that their property almost solely ecnsists in their notes and bills discounted. The other element is the surplus contingent fund and undivided profits, but this is small in the comparison. The amount of notes and bills discounted as shown by the report of the Auditor of State it 16,.339,000 dollars, while the surplss contingent fund and undivided profits amounits 4)nly, in s(tand numbers to 669,000 dollars. For my,self I -am willitig to strike out this sum of 669,000 doltars, forming as gentlemer say say a part of the capital st(ok, from the sum to be taxed, and to tax only the notes and b,ils discouuntd, and all other sums due to ,them from which they derive profit. The only object Zs that they shall be fairly taxed, and I am perfectly wvilling that tiis change shall be made. ~ qectioa s,-econd which prov,ides that the stock in cor;)orationis.fhall be taKed as3 other property Is taxed really meana nothiiaz as applied to banks, for the reason t,hat there is a difference between the cases, which renders ally comparison impossible, The difference is this: Ani individual pays interest on his debts, while a tbank receives interes't upont hers, and therefore some specific provision applicable to tir circumstances is necessary; and I am wiliing, as I said that they slhall be taxed upon their notes and bh11s discounted, that being the thlig from which they derived profit, and upon ev,tr. olher wamrce of gain that does not come under that ie. ie a d. Mr. ARCHBOLD. The constitution ought to provid e rha t banks shall be taxed justly, and fo more; but faer e i as tte danger in the"o multiyariof n provid s ion s r the -danger of e-'aisioni. G,entlem'en seem to think that by niakii)g w pecif c provispiose tofey shall mee t the dif0icu o~y —it may be the very means by whicf they will defeat the object they have i n vi ew. Why not lea ve t eil pwh.e iat1er t o tht e General Assetmbly, providing criereiy thiat triey shall be taxfd a,. individuals? B y this means the legislature will discver and provide against' tthoce evasions, whlich if they happen in regard to a constitsutionial provision cannot be. remedied. Mr. ARC3HBOLD) theni moved that the report be recom~mitted to the commiittee that reported it, with in ,struct,.otit to strike out tlie. third vwctieii and to insert in tieu bthe,.of the following,: "Thie ipr4,perty, rights anid credits of banjks shall be ,taxe~d to t:;he sane, ex:tent and u~pon the same principles ,dof asesst,.en t as the. property of ind ivideals. " Th'e questi-on being on tthe recoriiiitmetit with in~structions, Mr. ARCHfBOLD demandeA a division ~fo the qnes-' TIhe question ttiein b~eingdon the recommitment, Mr. L~,UIOLNT. I am afraid this question of banking will never be d~,sposed of. It has been returned'.o the hasida of (hat igi~orant commnittee that reported it, ral and the people of Ohio in parl icular on the services which they are entitled to took for, from the talents and ability of the( g,,ntleman from Summn~it, [Mr. OTIS.] The country and this cotiveintion is ignorant upon the subject of baniking; but I doubt riot lie, uniderstanidsit.He comes from a part of the csuitry wIeren the people understand well tpor I art of Unaitng money by their wits, out of nothing or out of franchises, which is th e same thinig. A wo rd to th e gentleman frosay Meigt, doer. HOnTOn.wr] He is known to beta man of talents ahtii of p xlperieal eo in fi nancial affairs. ple, is a adfember oftliet cowtsxfittee, and he tells u s that be never heard froma t he members of the majority any reason for the p rovisions ofthis report. Now I never heard that ge ntleman say that lie was Lnot in favor of taxinig banks as individuals are toaxed; on the hontrary, I rave heard hioa vr say t ha t he W as. Mr. HORTON. I am. Mr. LOUDON. Then why not a t tempt to oie ve th e committe e som e light in this matter. I murst say that the gentleman gave us very little aid. bHis name is rnot to be found to any of the r eports of th ecommittee; and I can tell gertlm ent, that wha litnever yowt t ouch State or Uniited States bopdis or levy a tax on special privile — ges, you will nots find the gentleman from Meigs or toe gentleman from Summit giving any aid or comfort in t he matter. No sir; they have adopt ed the principle th at it is right to tlirow the burden or taxation upon tlhe Ietbor and industry of the country. Now, Mr. PreOs m ident, what is the pri nciple of this re. por t in regard to to bank taxa tion? It is this: That alll aroperty s hall bbnu taxeM R equally to bear t he burdens of the State. We do no t propose to tax Sta te aonds, nor bonds of the Un ited States, but t o tax the money of citizenis in whatever it w eay hav e been invested. Is there any injustice in that? Sir, I object to any change in this third section. I say that it does not place banks in a situation worse thian Itndividuals. The propositioni is to place all uponi the s ane platform and for tshat purpose we t ax f irst their not es and bills, then rheir surplus contingent fund and undivided profit,,, and then knowing that they will use every poss~ble m-ieans to shrink froin and evade tile operation of the laws, we have added a provision to tax their"1 money loaned at interest in any miannier what,-ever;" so that if they see fit to change their busineiss aud go into operations like those of the Trustcompany here, the legis-latuire will be ablo to meet them. I trust, sir; that that which has on two occasions, b~een. done by this convention in'Irega,rdi to this report, will be done on the thirdl, and that Ltte matter will La disposed of niow and forever. Mr. MANON. I am not in favor of recommittiing this report to the same committee. It has had it already twice and has done nothiii)g with it. I would therefore. suggest to the gentleman from Monroe so to modify his miotion as to have it referred to a select committee. Mr. ARCHBOLD. I accept the suggestion, and will if the convention is agreed, mnodify my motion accordinigly. No objection being made; the- question was upon re. ,to I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, MARChr 4. The PRESIDENT. Not at present. The question assessment upon the capital alone would produce the i3 on the recommitment. proper result. I do not think 8o. The merchant is Mr. LARWILL. I hope the motion will not pre- taxed, not upon his capital merely, but upon his credvail. I have no fear oI any great injustice to thle beanks. its. A far;her who has purchased a farm at ten thouTlhere are too many loop.holes for thetmi to creep out sand dollars, upon which he has paid but fire thoosand, of, to suffer much. and owes for the balance, is taxed upon the whole va Mr. ARCHBOI,D. That is what I fear from these ne of the property. Now to tax a beank opon its capiprovisions. I fear we shall not succeed in taxing them tal alone, while it has property in other things besides at all. its capital isnot fair. I wiNl tell gentlemen what seems Mr. REEMELIN. Would it be proper to renew to me to be a fair proposition. Set down the capital the motion to recommit this report to the standing stock, add to this the amount of notes and bills discommittee? counted; from that deduct the circulation and assesw The PRESIDENT. Such a motion would take the remainder for taxation. It seemw to'ne thbt this liref-edence of the one now pending. would be fair for all parties. Mr. REEMIELIN. I would then renew the motion Mr. GREGG. I wish to ask the gentleman front to recommit the report to the standing committee that Richland, a question. If an individual had eighteen reported it. millions of dollars loaned oat at interest and a bank Mr. REEMELIN. I do not intend to make a had eighteen millions loaned out at in terest, would We .speeclh upon this question, nor to move to instreuct the make anv differencA between the two caes? comtoittee; but therearecertain provisions that [ shouldi Mr. KIRKWOOD. I would not,; bat if the indilike to see embodied in the report, in the place of the visual owed a sum of money, I woeld &dto th, section under consideration. My views upon thai s ub- amount from liis eighteen millions. .iect will be found on page 548 of the j'ournal of the Tije difference between the plan I propoesed, and Senate for the session of 184E-7 a passage from which that of the committee is about this.e They wood tda I will read as containing, In my opinion substantially the banks of the state on about eighteen mihtins; I, the provision that ought to be made. on about fourteen. They would tax the eap'ita stock "The cashier or other principal accoun'ilg officer of over about two and a half tim, I nD quite twice. every incorporated bank or bankinlg company in this Mr. HAWKINS. I am astonished at tle coose of State shall, on, or before the first Monday of July in gentlemnen upon) this quiestion. Th-ey say they ontly each year, make out and verify by his oath a state- want the banks taxed as inidividtuats,; yet they are vnmeat of the average amount of the entire indebtedness willing to tzust to a simple eensiitutioal provision t& to such bank or banking company from time to time that effect. I have voted against these speeifie produrir g the year previous to the time of making such visions, and in consequence have suered sme. I am statement, which amount shall include all the loans glad however, to find that some begin to see as 0 have and discounts of such bank or banking company, dane. Why are they not wiih)gte trast this matter whether originally made or renewed during the year in the hands of the General Assembly? Their hatre aforesaid, or at any time previons: whether made on of banks puts me in mind of an expressiaq of Johis bills of exchange, notes, bonds, mortgages, or any othl- Randolph vvho, when a eertain wosen bilt was under er evidence of indebtedness; whether due previous to, consideration in Congress, said that be hated the sutlduring or after the period aforesai(1; and on which such ject so bad that he would go forty rods ont of tlhe way bank or banking company has at any time reserved or to kick a sheep. Why, I suppose some of these guen received, or expects to receive any interest or discount tiemen would( t1ardly be willing to take a river farm aa or other consideration whatever. a gift, because thiere are baniks; to it. I hape sir; thai The principles of this provision I should like to in- this motion will prevail. corporate in this report, I would add somethirg like Mr. STI tWELL I hope that the motaion to rethe following: "Provided that any bank or banking commit will prevail. I do not propose tosav anything company may nevertheless deduct such deposits on upon the subject of bank taxation; that ha alreadyr which such bank or banking companies allow five per been ably handled, but there are other matteraof very cent or more interest per arnum. great importance, in relatina to whiicl the report oaght Mr. KIRKWOOD. After the remarks of gentle- to be amend(ed. men upon both sides, I am stillt not satisfied with the But there is another sulbect which in my opialon provisions of the report. The second section provides needs the action of the committee. The provisioi of ~. that every individual who is the owner of!pnk stock, the constitution will impose a tax upon' all property shall list it fortaxation. Itsays aEl investment-in joint belonging to institutions of learning, and devoted ts stock companies shall be taxed as other property istax- the purposes of education, pbltic sehool houses alon& ed. rhen the third section requires that the assessor excepted. Now what is section sixteena7 I;t is laud shall visit the corporate body and ascertain the full donated by the United States for the purpose ofed airount ofits capital stock, its notes and bills, discounts eation. It mast be taxed, for it is not a pblic school and its surplus contingent funid, and undivided profits,, house. There is a larle amount of property douatesd and this is also listed for taxation. That seems to me for the support of academies, high schoot} and colleto be rather more than twice its capital. We tax the ges, all of which will be taxed nader this bill, unless it .,,pital once in the hands of the individual, and twice is anmeied in that respect. I on a previos oce-asion : the hands of the corporate body. This is puttintg called the attention of the convention, to thas subject, i on rather to~ heavily, and I most be allowed to say, and was induced to believe that an ameasdmeat a ane:l\at I di(t 11ot see the subject in the same light when it cordance with my views would have been reported hy was previously before the convention The principle the committee. Ia that, I was disappointed, and the is not a correct one, and I cannot vote for the provis- Vandala spirit that seems to prvai! in the eqrmmttee,inion until it is changed, because it is not taxing banks doces me to believe that further argument would be as individuals are taxed, but is taxing them much useless. I say therefere, that this questioa is net safe higher. with the committee that reported the bill The question then is what would be an equitable ~ And what will be the effect of this provision? It mode, under the circumstances of taxing banks, hold- will prevent new institutions from going'inteoperatioi~, tug it right that they should be placed on an equality and curtail the usefulness of those already established. with ifdividuals. Some gentlemen suppose that an Its effect will not Ie ipan thl rich, for they wluf not 792 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES- TUESDAY, MARCH 4. on The question then being on ordering the report to be ill engrossed. es Mr. HAWKINS demanded the yeas, and nays ax which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 55, nays 30, as x- follows: or VEAM —Vessrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, r- Bates. Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cabhill. Case of Licking,Chambers. Chaney. Collings, Cof ook, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Graham, Gray, Greg, of Hami lton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Hunt, Kirhi- wood, Lawrence. Leech, Loudon, Malion, Morris, McCloud, at McCormick, Nash,Norris, Patterson, Peck, Perkins,Quigley, he Sawyer, Smith of Warren, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger e Thompson of Stark. Townshend, Warren, Way, Williams, se Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-55. ve NAYv-.essrs. Barnett of Preble, Dorsey, Ewart, Greene is of Defiance, Harlan. Hitchcock of Geauga, H,olmes, Hootr- man, Horton, Humrnphreville,Hunter, Jones, King,[Larsb, Lar will, Leadbetter, Lidey. Mitchell, Otis, Reemelin. Roll, Scott e- of Auglaize, Sellers. Smith of Highland, Stanton, StilweIl, sr Struble, Fwift, Taylor and Vance of Butler-30. lo So the report was ordered to be engrossed. And on motion was ordered to be read a third time rt on the fifth inst. On motion of Mr. MANON, the Convention res, solved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. as GREENE of Defiance in the chair. Mr. MANON moved that the committee taken up ,a, the resolution offered by him, upon the subject of the practice of the law. Y, Which was agreed to. of The resolution is as follows: Resolved, That every person of good moral characd, ter, and entitled to vote, shall have permission to pracs, tice law. anv law to the contrary notwithstanding. ng, Mr. MANON. Mr. President, 1 am fully convinced r that the pr;nciple of this resolution is right, because I s, do not believe that it is right ill this country for any s, man to have anything like an exclusive privilege that s- cannot be enjoyed by another. I do not understand why a man should be required to read a given numrnber of pages or spend a given length of time in a lawyer's cffie, before he can be permitted to make his appear ance in the courts of justice with a green bag in his h hand and undertake to prosecute and defend causes. . The principle has been tried in other States of the Union, and so far as I know, there has been nlo com plaint about it. It is the law in Indiana, as provided B" in the new constitution, and in several other States, ,' and there is just as much reason in obliging a man to , serve an apprenticeship, before hlie can be permitted the i farming, as the law business. c Why, Mr. President, a man cannot hold a plow well without practice, but is that any reason why he should * not hold a plow if he should happen to be called on by somebody who wanted to employ him for that purpose? This is a question entirely between the employer and the employed, ond' between them alone. If a man . whom I.hire to manage a cause for me manages it , wrong and I lose my case, it is his business and mine, - and I do not know what business the, other lawyers have to say whether I shall employ him or inot. Every man has a natural right to engage in any legal and , honorable business. It is true that this provision, if adopted may interfere a little with the business of some * of the members of this body; but I hope that this consideration will have no effect upon their votes; and , I hope that as lawyers thev will take the same view of * their case, that I as a farmer would of mine. Mr. President, I feel a good deal of interest in this question. There are some of the courts of the State t where I am desirous that all who wish to practice may be allowed to come. I do not know much about these paper courts, that gentlemen talk so much about, but have no doubt that even in those there would be no difficulty. Is it only the man who has read a great pile of books who is supposed to have sense enough to feel the additional cost which it makes in the educatic of their sons. but it is the sons of the poor who w be hindered from availing themselves of the faciliti of the schools by the additianiil expense which this te will impose upon them My proposition was to e: ermpt from taxation all property used exclusively f( educ atio nal pu rposes, aor and not for any private emol ment. T here is an other matter, in regard to the pow er the qet the bi o ti State aort of he s to f the State and ofte Un ted States. I know that some gentlemen think th we h av e a right to do it; the Su preme Cour t of tt United States has thought otherwise. I do not propos to say that t hey sh all n ot be, tax ed, but merely to leao the quesPeewBt e,ar. f the rsion with the L islature. If the provision not constitutional it cannot be enforced, but the inseJ tion of a phr ase giing the General Assembly a discr tion in the matter, will enable some of us to sign on n ame s t o this constitution, who otherwise ca,not d so. The question then being on committing the repo to the standing commiittee that reported it. Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded tile yeas and nay which we ere ordered, and resulted, yeas 9, nays 76, a follows: YVEAs —Messrs. Cahill, Dnrsey, Ho!t Johnson, Kirkwoot Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison and Struble-9. ,NAY.-,-,Iessrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomer Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair. Blickens derfer, Bro wn Athens. Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking. Chambers, (-har ev,Clark,Colliings-,Cook,E w art,E wing,Farr,Floren ce, Forbe, Graharm, Gray, Gree,,e of Defiance, Gregg, Hamilton. Har~ Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, Hi tchcock of Geauga, Hol me Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones.Kini LarH h, Lawrence, i,rrwill, Leech, Le ad)etter, Lidey, l,oudo cianon, Mitc hell,orril,Mc Cloud, Nasb, Norris,Otis, Patter son, Peck, Pierkins, Quxigley, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stebbins Stilwell, Stidger,.Swift. Taylor, Thomnpson of Stark, Towns hend, Varnce ",f Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson Worthington and President —76. ,So the motion was disagreed to. The question then heingoni committing the report to a select 6omr-ittee of five. Mr. LARWILL demanded the yeasand nays, whiel were ordered, and resulted, yeas 57, nays 29, as fol lows: Nays —Messrs. Archbold. Barbee, Burnet of Montgomery Barnett of I reble, Bates. Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens Brown'of Carroll, Cahill, Case of I ickinig, Chamrrbers. Cha Vey, Collings. Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Florence, Graham Gray, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan. Hawkins,Henflerson,Hitch cock of Geauga. Holt, Hootman, Horton, Humnphreville Hunter. Johnson, Kirliwood, Lawrence, Leadbetter, Lidey Manon,P,Torris, MCccloud, McCormick, hash, Otis, Peck. Pe, kin@, Reemelin, Sawyer,,cott of Harrison, Smith of High land. Smith of Warren. Stilwell, Swift,Taylor, Townsheaid Vance of Butler. Warren, Way, Williams and Worthington — 57. Y~As —Messrs. Blair, Clark, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance. Gregg, Holmes, Hunt, Jones, King, Larsh, Lare will Leech.Loudon,Mitchell.Norris, Patterson, Quigley, Roll Scott of Auglaize. Sellers, Stanton, Stel-,bins Stidger,'Stru: ble, Thompsonr of Stark, Wilson and President —og. So the motion to commit to a select committee was agreed to, and Messrs. Archbold. Bennett, Woodbury, Reemelin, and Gregg were appointed;aid committee. Report number one of the committee on Miscellaneou6 subjects and propositions was read a second time. And on motion of Mur. HITCHCO(CK of Geauga, committed to al committee of the whole Convention. Mr. LAWRENCE;riored1 that the report of the select committee on the subject of Temperane. with the penldingamensdment lbe taken up; which was agreed to. The question being on agreeing to the amendment of thle Committee of the Whole, to wit: Strike out of the firstt line, the following words, "at the first general election;" it was agreed to. 793 791 OHIO CONVENTION DE: come into court and take his seat among the lawyers? Now, Mr. President, I do not by any means wish to bringdown th. legal profession in its intelligence or respectability. Onr the contrary, my object is of an entirely different character. It is to bring up the people to the same level. This experiment has been tried in regard to the medical profession. Every man is now allowed to pract c; medicine who desires to do so, if he can find anyboe-' to employ him. I would ask if the physiciaus have suffered in consequence of this practice.' And which is of the most consequence to a mnan, his money or his life? If I am mistaken in employing a lawyer, I can try to do better next time; but a physiciali kills his patient that is an end of it. We admit the whole principle when we allow men to place their lives in the hands of whoever they please, and to restrict them ill the mere matter of property is not only a departure from the principle, but seems an absurdity. Mr. HAMILTON moved that the committee rise a,id report; which was agr eed to. The committee then rose and the Chairman reportea that the committee had had under consideration the article submitted by Mr. MANON, and had instructed him to report the same back without amendment. The question then being on ordering the article to be engrossed, Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being "Shall the mail question be now put," the same was agreed to. The question then being on ordering the article to be engrossed.! Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 32, nays 47, as follows: YE.As-Mesrse. Archbold, Chaney, Forbes, G,'ay, Greene of Defiance. Gregg,Hard,Hawkins, Holmes,Holt,Humphreville, Jones, King, Larsh, Larwill, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Morris, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanton,Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Thompson of Stark and Woodbury-32. NAYs-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair,13 lickensderfer Brown ofAthens,Brown of Carroll. Cahill, Case of Licking, Chambers, Clark, Collings, Cook,Dursey. Ewart, Florence,Gillett,Hlamilton, Har-. tan, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hootman, Horton, Hunter, Kirkwood Lawrence, Leadbetter, Mitchell, M c Cloud, McCormick,,_orris, Otis, Peck, Riddle. Roll, Sawyer, Smith of Warren,'tilwell, Swilt, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren Way, Williams, Wilson and President -47. So the Convenfion refused to order the article to be engrossed. Mr. HAWKINS moved that the Convention resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, Which was agreed to. Mr. GRAY in the Chair. The order being the Report of the Standing Com.mittee on Miscellaneous subjects and Propositions, the same was read: SEc. —. The comrnmissiotiers of counties, the trustees of t,ownships, and similar boards, shall have such power of lo. cal taxation for police purposes, as may be prescribed by law. Mr. CHAMBERS moved that the Conimrnittee rise and report, Which was agreed to. The Commrittee then rose, and the Chairman reported, that the Committee had had under colisideration the Report of the Committee on Miscellaneous ~ubjects and Propositions, and had instructed him to report the same back without amendment. The question being on ordering the Report to be engrossed, gor. GREGG moved to amend the Report, by add irag as an additional section, the following: "SEC. 2. Xcribunals of Cbociiation shoft be established by tl.e General Assembly, with such powers and duties as may be prescribed by law; but such tribunals shall have no pov. er to render judgment to be obligatory on the parties, except they voluntarily submit theirf matters in difference, and agree to abide the judgment, or a ssen t th eret o in the presence of such tribunal in such cases as shall be prescribed by law." Mr. PERKINS moved the previous question. The question then being, "shall the main question be now put, It was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the amend, ment of Mr. GREGG, Mr. GREGG demanded the yeas and nlays, which were ordered, and resulted-.yeas 42, nays 39, as follows: YEAS-.Messrs. Archbold, Clark, Cook, Dorsey. Ewart Greene of Defian ce, Gr egg, Hamil ton, tard, Hawkiis, Holt, Hootman, Hunter, King, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Manon, Mitchell,McCormick, Otis, Patterson, Quigley, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scot t o f Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidgeri Struble, Swift, Taylor, Thonw psor of Stark, Town shend, Wa r ren and Way-42. NAYS-Messrs. lBarl)ee, Barnet of Alontgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, 13lickenisderfer, Brown ot Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham. Gray, Harlan, Ienderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes Humphrteville, Hunt, Johnson, Kirkwood, Morris, McCl,,ud, Norris,Peck,Perkins, Roll, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and Presidenit-39. So the amendment was agreed to. The question then being t,n ordering the Report to be engrossed, Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded a division. The question then being on ordering tiie first section to be engrossed, It was agreed to. The question then being on ordering the second wction to be engrossed, Mr. GREGG demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 41, slays 39, as folows: YrAs-Messrs, Archbold, Clark, Cook, Porsey, Greene of Defiance,Gregg, Hamlilton, Hard, Hawkiins. Holmes, Hlolt, I-lootmarn, Hunter, IKing, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Marion. Mitchell, McCormnick, Otis Patterson, Quigley, R'eemelini, Roll, Scott of 1-Jarrisorn, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickniey, Stidger Struble. Swift, Ta lor. Tlhom-Ypson of Stark, Towushed, and Ways41. N.vs —Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montogomery, Barnett of Preble, Ba.tes, Bennett, Blair. Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill. Chambers. Chaney, Collings, Ewart, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Grahamn, Gray, Harlan,Henderson,Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Humrrphreville, Hunt, Kirkwood, Aitorris, McCloud, Norris, Peclk, Perlkins~ Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Williams, Woodbury, Worthington and President-39. So the second section was ordered to be engrossed. And on motion, ordered to be read a third time on the 5th ins"t. On motion of Mr. LIDEY, The Convention took a recess. O{ 0'CLOCK, P. AL Mr. REEMELIN submitted the following: Resolved, That Stephan Molitor and J. B. Stallo be a,-d they are hereby appointed transladors for the purpose of translatlng the new Constitution into the Getmani language, and th at said translators furnis h to each Germ an paper in the State a correct copy thereof, and a lso a fair copy to be depoe. ied wit h the English copy, as directed by law. Resolved, That a Select Commiittee of- be appointed, whose duty it shall be to compare carefully the translation Thus made, and the respective copies thereof, and that the, lect Committee thus appoinited, be and the same is hereby aux thiorized to allow to the translators such compensation as ,,ay be deemed reasonable, not to exceed thirty dollrrs in all. and that such allowance be paid out of the fund appropriated to defray the expenses of this Convention, on the order of the President. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, MAR(H 4. On motion of the same gentleman, the resolutions charters, or pass a general banking law, with such rewere referred to the select committee on printing. strictions,and under such regulations as they may deem On mtnotirn of Mr. HAWKINS, the Convention re- expedient and proper for the security of the hill holder; solved itself into a comtiittee of the whole, Mr. LEECH but no such grant or law shall ever authorize ally such in thile Chair, and resumied the consideration of Mr. corporation, banker or bankers, to demand or receive HOLT'S resolution upon the subject of Banking and directly or indirectly, by means of a loan of money, of Currevcy, submitted by that gentleman onl the 24th paper currency, or by anlly other device, or expedient, da5 of January. or mode of doing business, a rate or amount of inter The resolution is as fIllows: eat on the actual capital il good faith paid in, greater Resolved, That the followingz be incorporated into tian shall be fy law, allowed to the citizen.; generally e new constitution, as a article thereof. of the State; nor sh;ll any such, grant or law, exempt t~a necotito a rt c ary individual corporrator or banker from liability in his ARTICLE. private capacity for the payment oi all the debts of the SEO. 1. Taxes shall be levied upon the productive corporation, banker or bankers, with whom, as a bankcapital of the banks in this State, whether such cali- er, he shall lihavebeeti associated, at the time of contal consis s of money, debts, or credits, in such man- tractiig such indebtedness; Provided, always that no ner and for such pIurposes as shall be levied upon other such grant or law shall have any force or effectt until property. thesame shall have been submitted to a vote of the SEc. 2. The General Assembly, at its first session electors of the State at some general election, and after the adoption of this constitutioi., shall pro. approved by a majority of the votes cast at such elecvide by law for Ithe ascertainrrentc of the rate andi tion. amount of interest which shall thereafter be received, Mr. REEMELIN, proforma, proposed to amniend the annually, by the several banks in this State, on the report by striking out the first section. amount of their actual capital in good faith paid in, Mr. REEMELIN said, that much as he generally whether received by means of a loan of money, of disliked all half way measures, such as the one now paper currency or by any other device, expedient, or under consideration, still hlie welcomed the propositioni mode of doing business; and if any bank shall have now under consideration, as it enatbled him to make received after deductigr expenses, an exhibit of whi-h some remarks, for which hlie had, as yet, had no opporshall be atnnually made to the Auditor of State. and by tunity. him reported to the General -Assembly, a rate or It has, [continued Mr. R.,] been long a matter of amount of interest otl such capital, over and above the doubt with me, whether the assertion so often repeated rate. and interest which shall be allowed by law to the "tiat banks of Issue faclitated trade by increasing the citizens of the State generally, the excess of such in- amount of capital," was true or not, and I directed terest shall be paid into the treasury of the State for ofsalhe Othe u s eau of thte State.fo my inquiries therefore to such statistics as I could the use of tile State. reach, to either satisfy me that paper money did in SE~c. 3. Al the same session, the General Ass~emblyi E.. At the sne session, the Ge l l crease capital, or that the reverse was true. Early shall by law, prohibit the circulation, as money, with- last summer, while we were yet in session in Columin this State, every species of paper currency of a de - bus, I exaiined carefully the journals of our legisla nomination less thani three dollars, after the fourth day tive bodies, and the public reports of our officers, with of July, in the year one thousand eight hundred and reference to that subject. I also examined various fifty two; and of a denomination less than five dollars, other documents, rod after a patient, careful and initafter the fourth day of July, in the year one thous- partial inquiry, I caie to the firtr conviction that and eight hundred and fifty-fonr; and of a denomina- baks of isue (lid ot oly ot ireas our riea tion less then ten dollars, after tihe fourth day of July, b ut that they really have be the only i mpediments in te yar oe-trouand igh hudredatii'but that they really have been the only impediments in th year one-lousad eight undred and fifty-sev- to an unititerru)ted prosperity. I found that they eli; and of a denomination lees than tweitty doll ar., always disordered the regular course of trade-that after the fourth day of July, in the year one thousand they baisl)ed legitiat credit-that they ave thrown eigt hndrd atd nd ixt; aid f eerydetomiia-they banished legitimate credit —that they have thrown eight hundred and andsixty; and of every deiomita- |great losses uponi the body of our people-aand that Uoi after thie fourth day of July, in the year one jwithout them Ohio would now ba richer in the constithousand eight hundred and sixty. six, until the ques tutional currency-richer in real capital-richer in a tion of "bank or no batik," shall have been submit. , regular trade-i short, our prosperity has been proted to, and voted upon bv the electors of the State, as duled by tard labor, and not b y ba hkiag and what is provied for n this rticle.duced by hard labor, and not by banking; and what is provided for iD~ this article.{* sc 4.o Nodpayfe,t mad tisi aprtclreny. X good we have exists in spite of paper nmoney banking, Sr.c. 4. No payment made in paper currency, cir- and not as the resultof it. arid riot as the result of it. culatinlg as money contrary to tihe provisions of this article, for property bought or sold, or onl any contract, I found that no words have cost us, as a people, shall be a bar to an action brought for the recovery of more money than those delusive words, "There is not tile price or value of such property, nor to an action money enough il the country to do the business of brought upon such contract, and such payment shall, the country." The history of our State points to to all interests and purposes be held void.'ha!,wreck after wreck of both public and private wealth, SEc. 5. After the fourth day of July, in the year a, the fatal result of these honied phrases. Whenever oete thousand eight hundred and seventy.one, tlie Ger- thie State attempted to "create a currency," fatal reeral Assembly niay submit to the electors of the suits to business always followed, and the higher the tie State, ataity general election, the question of batk expansion the deeper the distress; the lower the con o~ no baink," and if at such election a majority of the traction, the easier our monied affairs. votes cast shall be against banks, the General Asserrb- There have been, ill this State, three severe crises ita ly shall no+ thereafter authorize, create; or incorporate, our monied affairs, and it is strange, but true, that our by airy geiteral or special law, arty bank, banking pow distress always prevailed when we hld the er or privilege, nor any institution or corporation hav- mot paper money, and that business matters always ilg any banking power or privilege whatever, and shall righted themselves as we returned from paper money by law,prohibit forever,the circulationas money, ofeve- to the currency of tie Constitution. ry species of paper currency; bitt if the majority of all I need but mentioe 1814 to 1816, 1820 to 1822,1837 the votes cast at such election, sha I be in favor of to 1841, toatonce find a responsiveaffirmativein every banks, then the General Assembly may grant bank mind to m, assertion. 795 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUES:AY, MARcI 4. the dividends declared by the banks have exceeded the whole revenue of our government in any one year. These facts led me to endeavor to make a calcualation of how much the people of Ohio have lost by banks, and although I could not, from difficulties which will become obtvious to all who make the inquiry, arrive at exact correctness, still I am sure that I have impartially examined the facts in the p remi ses, a nd that wher e I w as compelled to estimat e, I d id so agai nst my argut ment, and in favor of banks. I took down — 1. The name of every bank in the St ate. 2. Date of its chart er. 3. Expiration of it. 4. The time during wicm it existed. 5. Average capitalt paid in during the seva eral periods. 6. The average discounts. 7. I estimate the loss by b reak ing o r by the several depreciation in the ir notes. S. The average) circulation. I repeat, that I do not claim entire accuracy, but I showed my table privately to memnbers, and corrected it, where facts were exhibited to me, justifying th'a change. I will also state that in arriving at the period of existence, I may have set down a too long period of existence, since some of them ceased to exist after 1822 and up to 1836, but on the whole, I am sure I am as correct as I could be, in trying to follow the labyrinth of our bank statistics, where concealment was the motto. In estirmating the amount paid to bank offiobrs, I know I am generally below the truth. The loss by bank votes is estimated by the average circulation, and the depreciation during tile several periods, and adding where the bank failed, the amount at that particular period. Some banks, like the Miami Exporting Company, failed twice. Of the following banks I could find no traces in the official report: Bank of Cincinnati.................... Broke. Farmers' and Merchants' bank at Cin'ti... do Jefferson bank at New Salem........... do Farmers', Mechanics', and Manufacturing bank at Ciiillicothe................... do Lebanon Miami Exchange Company...... do Lebanon Miami batk.................. do Zanesville Canal and Manufacturing banik. do Bank of Mansfield..................... do Butler County bank.................... do Exchange bank at Cincinnati............ do Savings do do................ do Hamilton County bank................ do Hamilton and Rossville Manufacturing Co. do Kirtland Safety Society batik............ do Merchants' and Traders' bank, Cincinnati. do Monroe Falls Manufacturing Company.. do Ohio Railroad Company, Richmrnoid...... do Owl Creek bank, at Mount Vernon...... do Piatt's bank........................... do Orphans' Institute..................... do Washington banik, at Miamisburgh...... do Western Reserve banik, at Brighton....... do Canal ban.k, at Middletown.............. do Western bank, in Cincinnati............. do Farmers' bank, at New Salem.................... de Newton Library..........................d New Bank, at (]ircleviile................... do Maumee Insurance Company................. do Franklinl Silk Company................... do Nor could I findd any regular reports for the- United States Banok. Mr. REE.MELIN then submitted the following statement: In 1814 the money loane d by banks to the people amounte d to about......o $3,000.000 In 1822........................... 5,000,000 Ill 1837........................... 19,000,000 Eachti time the greatest proport io nate inc rease of bank facilities-e,ach timre a h igh exp ansion of cur rency- and each time, too, Governor's messages speak of distr ess; our Auditor's re ports speak of finan cial difficulties; and during each of these periods our pub lic papers are full of Sheriffsales; each suc h period is marked by banks breaki ng, and by a general wreck of public and private wealth. f Of the other hand, our public records and the news papers of the day, bear the unmistakable evidence that as w e reduced our paper money circu lation, and with them, proportior. ably, our bank facilities, that i n tlhe same r atio the amount of real coin increased, and w i th the ret urn o f th e cons titutional currency came a revival of business, and w ith it a credit based upon a legitimat e and sure basis. I acknowl edge, freely, that it is impossible to get at entire accuracy, for previous to 1814 there is no report to be f ound on banks and paper money. M r. Craw ford's report, as Secretary of the Treasury, throws the f irst light up on the subject. He stat es the capital of Ohio banks in S14 to have been............... $1,433 819 1815 ".............. 1,932,108 1816 ".............. 2.806,737 1817 "..... - 2.000,369 1818 Mr. Hammond reports i t at 2, 000,000 With di sco unts am ou n ting to 4,000,000 The operation- of the United States Bank, during its early period, in thi s State, ar e h ar d to ascertain; but Mr. Hamm ond state s, in his report, th th that bank made $293,340 per any: um, having no real capital, and the same ti gising uished gentlea then held the correct doctrine, " that the issues of the United States Bank office were of absolute necessity charged upon the cap it al of I he State." It is plain that the discounts of the, U ni ted Stat es Bank from 1800 to 1821, co uld not h ave been less than $2,000,000, a nd th is was in addition to our own banks, so that from 1800 to 1822, i t is most proba ble that th e bank discounts of Ohio must have amounted to some $6.000,000. The history of that period is well known to our people, and although we have no data botween 18220 and 1831, still the prosperity which s ubsequently returned to Ohi o ca n not be the result of bank facil ities, for most of the banks had gone out of existence, leaving the United States Bank master of the field. In 1819 the reports of public officers show "that no specie, nor notes of specie paying banks, were paid into the treasury," and th e same y ear the curr ency committee, in reporting upon the return of banks made to them, say: "These ieturns were not made to be laid before the Legislature, thehe committee therefore decline makin a ig an abstract." In fact, the desire to conceal from the people all correct information oni the subject of paper money, is obvious to every person who will take the pains to investigate. the subject. D~uring this same period it is evident that our bank Dotes had no value abroad, for such is the statement repeatedly made ill Niles' Register. There is also a strange fact, which any one may ascertain by calculation, that the profits of the United States Bank, which brought no capital, did often exceed the expenses and revenues of the whole State government, for 80 Mr. Hammond states in his report, and on farther inquiry, that with bult a few exceplions, 796 8TAT EA ENT Derived from Official Sovrces, shc,ing thie Losses svstaincd by the frilowing Banks: Estimated i a o loss by de- Average; Amount fHow long 05 ia e ilCcuia-'Paid to offi- i exis of li~Oi.S. .4 m uo 'o0 ;A V Z I Commercial Bank of Cincinnati........... Franklin Bank of Cincinnati............... Lafayette Bank of Cincinnati.............. Miami Ex. Co, including Br. at Couneaut.. Bani of Hamilto n e......................... Dayton Bank.............................. Bank of Xenia............................ Urbana Banking Company................. Franklin Bank (iof Columbus................F y. Bank of Circleville....................... Bank of Chil'icothe........................ Commercial Bank of Scioto................ Bankl of W'est Union....................... Bank of Marietta.......................... Banki of Gallipolis......................... Bank of M uskingum....................... Bank of Zanesville........................ Belmont Bank of It. Clairsville............ Farmers' and Mechanics' B'i of Steubenvil e Bank of Steubenville...................... Bank of Mount Pleasant................... Bank of Wooster.......................... German Bark of Wooster.................. Bank of Massilon.......................... Farmers' Balnk of Canton.................. Columbiana Balnk of New Lisbon.......... Western heserve Bank..................... Balnk of Geauga............................ Commercial Bank of Lake Erie............ Bank of Cleveland......................... Bank of Norwalk.......................... Bank of S-ildusiky........................ Manhat.tai l.ank........................... Granville Al-xandian Society.............. Lanca'ii r [l nl1............................ Clilitoi Bt.li (,if Columbus................ Ohlio Lite ils. antil'Irust Co., (Bank. Dept.). Total............$10,358,906 $14,070,000 $5,000,000 6,6150011 $1,660,000 -In Ohio. I I I i I to L I Cha-rter. - Wlieii Graiited. Capital'-'toc Wben Expired. i paid 4ti. i i i I)ividends de ctai-ed. Special Reniarks. NA.NIES OF BANKS. 6(l 000 15 years. 60.0 0 10 (10 7, ,( (10 1 6 do 40 do 40.00 (' 22 do 4,,(,,(:O 28 d o o co() 10 do 50,000'I 2 dO 75 (j-O 1 2 do 20,(IOO 1 6 do ,5 Ok 0 34 do .3;-), 0 (; 022 do 50,0! 0 6 do 50,CCO .25...do lo'COO 60 (,(iV 0 do !20,CCO I 0 do 50.(,,(!O 8 do 50 O(IO 25 do 61;,COO 24 do OliO -8 do 20 000 12 do 60-t CO 5,:O do :iO,O 0 16 do 50,OC,O 25 do , 0 (, 0 25 d o 60,0(.,,O 50 d o 30 COO 15 do 50,000 25 do 20,0(,,O 10 do 15 do 20 000 10 do 50,OCO S* do 6 .OCO O do 50,0(iO 25 d o .10;OCO 1 5 do 60 000 10 do $1,660,COO ransferi,ed to new system Do, Lbad loss. Bro]Ke title each time Bi-olie twlce' Trp,iisf'crTed. D'D' Brobe, ba(l loss. Loss estimated in. Broke. Brolie. bad loss. Do. Do. February 11, IF29. February 19, A,] arch 3, 1824 Ap,il 15. 3803.December 19, 181 S). February 11, 1814. March 1, 1834. F,byuary!23, 1816. February 23, 18 6. Al —rch 3, 1834. February 18, I F08. 1'ecember 16, 1817. February 23, 1816. February 10, 1808. I)ecember22,1817. Febru ai-y 21, 1812. .January 1.1, 1832. February 23, 1816. December 13 1817. February 15, 1809. February 23, 1816. February 14, 1834. Febt-iiai,y 23, 1816. February 27, 18'i4. December 16,1817. February!23, 1816. February 20, l12. February 10, 1829. Febru ary 23, 1816 March 3, 1834. February 25, 1831. M arch'I, 1834. M arch 25, 18'1(;. January 26, 1807. February 23, 1816. M,,rch 3, 1834. February 12, 1834. January 1, ,to do May 1,, January 1, do May 1, January 1, do March 1, January 1, do do do do do do do do do do 1844. 1843. 1,954. 1843. 3843. 1843. 1850. 1843. 1855. 1843. 1,0(10,C(!O 1,000,(',Oo 415.7''8 200,(;(',O 415,(IOO 2-,5,1 t)5 80,0(; 0 180,747 268, 87 22,;500 28i',500 52,810 131,788 228,1)27 108,651 ,00,000 131,250 90,000 198,662 155,028 500,CCO 298,450 I', 5,147 ]00,0(O 50.000 1 t)4,529 .i2.",63 00,000 6(io,c()O $10,358,9 —)6 (I i), (I. 0 0 175 (ICIO 210),O(,o - " 0, () c 0 .15(),(Ioo 0 240,(',(,O 1,160,0(O 40",,060 20(i,oco 200,0(11) 120,COO ( 0. (I 0 0 "00,L)00 3co,oco 60(l,000 1.10,00 ", 200.000 24().('.60 175,CCO 150,9100 150,CO") 80,(,)OO 8(i,oco 120,(,'OO ,-O,Ooo 20 000 20o,oco .9(jo,coo 5(10.0(10 5co, (,,O .-O(J,Ooo 60,CI)O 51) COO 80 coo 400,000 00 000 200 o(JO 150-COO 75,0 0 ,00,000 50 000 50 000 50,000 75 (00 7.5,00 50,('00 2QO (;(IO 20-1 ,000 150 000 1125 O(JO 000 50 Coo 50,(Ioo ,1(10 000 2('O,ClO 75,((10 300,000 100 (,ioo .OOO.GCO 250.,o 0 2 0,000 500,000 6,615,000 co 0 5 cco 3(l,O,CCO 5(,O,cco 500,CCO 25, 0 75,000 0 0 200,001) 7'5,('(,"O 150,OCO 20,000 25,000 0,(I(IO 200,0011, ooo,o(jo 50,000 100,0(110 I o,coo .,Oo 0(10 15o'coo 50,0011) Brolie. Do. Broh-e, bad loss. Do. Do. Tn existence. 'I'raiisi'crred. Do. Brolie, bad loss. I)o. Broke. ])O. BroiKe, total loss. Brulic. bad loss. Do. Re-cbartered. Does not now issue Paper. June 1, 3850. do 1841. do 11,55. January 1, 1843. do AO do do June 3, 1854. do 1850. May 1, 1850. January 1, 1857. perpetual. January 1, 1843. do 1854. do l43. $14,070,OCO $5,COO,COO Total....... - -.. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUES AY, MARcti 4. Nor have I been able to arrive at any corr'ect esti hmate of the losses sustained by stockholders, nor those sustained by depositors, but taking all things into consideration, and the losses sustained by the people of Ohio, cannot amount to less tlhai forty nilIions in forty-eight years; all paid for the chimera that there is not money enough in the country to do the business of -the country. And do not let us forget that half of the dividends paid went abroad, and that therefore up to'44 there were sent abroad..................... $7,000,000 Arid by the U. S. Batik.............. 5,000,000 And by the present system........... 1,000,000 Making in as tll....................,to b $13,000,000 While the highest amount of ca pital ever he ld in th i s S tat e from abroad, never exceeded 31 millions or a bout ha lf of o ur bank c apit al. The calculatio n in relati on to bank dividends, and to the stock held by foreign stockholders, is basedl partly on reports, but generally on the amount of taxes paid, as for instance from Ir, BRoUGII's report, on banlk taxation. So far then from getting any capital into the Statei, we uhave geot i t out, and ever y b ank law ahould be called at law to diuisio sh our means,-to rob labor,to feed idlers at home andg abroad, &c.-to destroy iegitirnate credit. But look to the future! We are againi Oi the high road o f expafsiog l,-we have again 56 balnks in exi iste nce, and the cry is st ill for more. The capital invested amounts to....... $7,300,0,'0 The c irculation higher than ever...... 10, 000,000 The amount of mloney at i nterestis...f. 16,300,000 Or double their real capital. The nett profits m ade annually are not less per annum, than $50,000. Our banks have fifteen years to run, and the dividends they will divide will amount to not less thani fifteen nmilfions. Then~i count brokerage, count the money paid fear bills of exchange more than should be, and we will find that the use of a paper currency will cost us imrnense suins. And half of all this extra gain goes abroad for dividends, and it so happened that in the last four years our foreign stockholders have trot half their capital back in dividends, and by 1865, when the present banking system expires, they will have received their capital back again twice at least in dividends. And do not let us suppose that the foreign capitalists furnish us capital,-no they furriashl only our bon(ds, which so far as they are concerned, may as well lay in Columbus as in their own coffers. li is therefore a mere extra privilege conferred, for which we pay annually dearer than for any thing else we enjoy. I venture to repeat the assertion, that the use of paper iumoney cost us annuall y more than our government, and that before all is ended, it will cost us more than double the same. But this mav be set down as a mere assertion, permit rmie therefore to submit a few facts, which will show undeniably the correctness of my position. The banks paid last year, as per Auditor's Report, the followinilg tax...........................$57,004 98 This tax is the result of a tax of 6 per ct. upon the profits, and for every 6 dol lars of tax, thle banks have mlade..... 100 Now thlen to have paid the above sulm their net profits mlust lhave amlotunted to................. $950,055 There are 56 banlks in the St,ate, and the expenses for offcerss to each, can lnot be less than $3,9006-making $1 68,000 —per year. The imports into the State, which must be paid in This staten en t, an d the list of banks preccoiLng, shows, if carefully ex.mined, 1. That we hav e h ad, up to 1844, sixty seven banks in existence. 2. That of these, about forty broke with heavy losses to the people. 3. T hat not more than f ive of te he whole number of banks have ever yet finally and hoinorybly settleds up. 4. That the people have paid, lor the usie of a paper curr ency, in divid ends, at least.....$14,070.000 I n depreciation of bank nuotts....... 5.00lokt t r),0oo Amount paid t o bank osffi( ers........ra.1,66i,000 $20,530,000 N ow we must fIurotnr e stimate the losses sustained by the people, threoupih the use of a paper currency in the purchase of bills of Exchange. I ascertained the premiums paid du rin g the sevea eral periods when I could fi leat.0 O dnd. them and I find they differed a good deal. They varied from 1 to as high as 14 per cent., having paid the latter sum ipmyself. 1 could not ascertain the amount of exch ange annbually purchased, but I am sure no one acquainted will think my estimate as hereafter put down too high. I also estimated the loss by Shinplasters, a nd I a m sure that is not too h;gh, and that in fact it should be put down at double that sum, for the Slhinplasters of the Exchange bank were s haved so often, that t heir am oun t was mad e somfe twice or three times before they broke. Thie s ame is true of West Union, fianki Exorting Cof8pa1, v at 1oraneaut. I continue iny ta ble thus: Brought from above................ $20,730,000 I ss for pre nius paid for exchang e in 48 years...................... 12,000,000 Loss by S elin ipla sters............... 3,000,000 Amou nt of profits drawnd by U. S. IBank, b eing for 18 vears $30a0,00 e r arin..................... 5,400,000 lar ies of U S. catk officers t c b t 90,000 Profits divided ulnder present baonkirng system, accordi on.g to tax paid In 1846................. 275,0(0) a1847................. 400,000 1848,............... 550,000 "1849,............... 800,000 ~ 1850................. 880,000V- o,905,00 44,125,000 $44.125,000 The interest of the real bona fide capital employed in these banks should, I suppose, be deducted, which would have amounted to about 8,000,000, which deducted leaves as the cost of the use of paper money to the people of Ohio, thirty-six millions of dollars. In ref-!rcrce to the estimate of losses for prernium paid on bills of Exchanige. it is proper to add tlo, t';tle Banking Companies of 1841, value that loss at 10tJ, million,s ini a;), ut eight years. See vol. 8, Pub. Doe., page 71, whicl] may be rather high, but I am sure that it needs but for a person to consider the amount of money tran-sln itted East annually to convince him, that my estiht ate, being based oln 40 years, is too low. I have rnys,ef paid 14 per cent. premium during the last sr sp n con, and Exchlange, has but seldlom been belowv 10 per cent.. halfl of which mnust be charged to the use of paper roeher, for without it Exchange would b~e but ~ per cent. or less. I hlave not been able tio get anything like a fair estimate for brokeragffe, nor for losses sus~tainled by the pblic through bank notes lost by fire and otherwise. Tis loss i~s not small, and I am told the Trust Corn pany has nowv outstanding of its own1 cir~culationl $50,000, or equal to 10 per cenlt. on the whole average circulation. 793 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATE,' —TUESDAY, MARcH 4. eastern Exchange, and on every dollar of which we have to pay 11 of extra premium, in consequence of our using a paper currency. amount to at least 30 millions; miakiug 150,000 dollars per aniumr, most of which goes to brokers. The banks have a surplus fund of undivided profit amounting to $669,865 95; so that their nett profits cannot be less th.n 1,100,000 per annum. Now, let us recapitulate: Dividends............................... $950,055 Amnount paid to Officers.................. 168,0(00 Extra premiumn on eastern Exchange....... 150,000 Surplus ainnuiially....................... 100,000 1,368,)55 N/ow the expenses of our State Government, irnt(erest, and a part of it payi,ent of debt, amounted in all to $1,350,000; sustalining the assertion, that the urise of paper mnioney costs us more thain our Governmient. 13tt will the paper money system now in op-. eration in this State, ever settle up flially? Has any Ibankiniig systeni ever done so? Are we not piling up misfortune for our children? Again I iMay be told, that paper money being now in existence, a return to the constitutional currency, would wolkl serious evils to trade, to commerce, and e to all business relations. In reply, I can only say, that the facts I lhave submitted, prove the reverse, but lest there nimy be some stubborn naind, which cannot be reached by plain facts. I would ask this question: whether, if every bank bill in Ohio perish in one night, either by fire or otherwise, whether one dollar of value would thereby be destroyed,-lwhether there would be any less bread, any less meat, any less clothiug, any less labor, ally less religion, any less talent, any less industry? No! a change might occur in the ielative wealth of our citizens, but in six weeks the general face of society, would be calmn, and in three mintths, business, credit, and all other relations would reestablish themnselves on a firmer and surer basis. Oui w ealIh is the result of labor, and of the conrtinu(ed accession to our population. Baniks are a clog, and not aii auxilary to our means. Such were the early opinions cf our statesmene, for so Mr. Hammond says in his report, and such is the real result. Every bazlk established, is an absorption of real capital, and a substitution in lieu of it, of fictitious capital, and the establishment of a banking system, is in itself, a deriangement of the existing relations of society.'This vacuum created in the real capital of our peo-ple, cannot be iestored by paper tooney credit. Capital is the re-ult of labor, and true legitimate credit should be based on individual character and the probable results of industry. All mere arbitrary creations of capital, such as paper money, not beingw the result of industry, and being ephemeral in their character, are creating invidious competition with in dustry; and all capital, fictitious or otherwise, bears, by our existing relations of society an income to the o'aners, and therefore a crea+tion of fictitious capital is, as Mr. Hammond correctly remarked, in reference to the isue of t(he U. S. Bank, "of necessity, a charge upon the real capital in the State;" they are forced loans fronm the whole community, for the especial ben efit of the hankers. This is clear, for every man of Ohio, to obtain capital, must either work for it, trade. for it, or inherit it,-but the banker gets it by special power, arbitrarily conferred upon him. There is ann~ually a certain amlount of capital crea ted by the pteople of Ohio. This is the result of labor. But to create paper money, does not iicrease that cap ital —for it is not value, it is only the representative of it-and the conclusion is therefore inevitable, that he special creation of fictitious capital, is nothing more nor less, than to e n able a few, who enjoy speci al privileges to en joy a capital, which they did cnot labor for, w hich is the result of n o labor on thei- part, nor of an y othe r industry, and therefore a charge upon the xlabor of others, and upon the real c pital created by labor. In short, capital created by special law, is the enemy of capital created by labor, and a severe chargel pon industry. To enable men to get and to enjoy, without industry, what others cannot get in the same mianner. A committee of the Senate of Ohio, of which Mr. Seabuiry Ford was chairman, estimated the annual earnings of our people and the gains in property at $43,801,820, and from these earnings do we all live. These earnings pay our taxes, and at the same bounteouis table spread by the industry of our people, eats and enjoys the fictitious capitalist called banker, and he eats and enijoys by special privilege, and not asthe result of any industry of his. But to make this still more palpable, let us look at a few facts. Thie Auditor of State, in his report dated May, 18.5)0, states: ,^he capital of banlks at.......... $7,324.342 05 And the Loans and Discounts at..16,325,302 r58 Here is at difference of............ $9,004,960 53 I ask where does this line of Discounts arise from? Whence the en.joyment of an interest of $540,000? Wheniee else, except from the power to create paper money? Whence else, except through) the fictitious capital created by arbitrary power'? And to this extent exactly do these privileged men become a charge upon the industry of our people! But I may be told that being surrounded by paper money States, we must protect ourselves by a counter creation of paper money. A few facts will dispel this illusion. A,llen Ohio, in 1841, had reduced her currency, Indiana had increased hers. The result was, that the merchants of Indiana discounted at home, and they had to pay the discount. When we were flush il Bank facilities, we discounted here and we lhad to pay the discounitis. And it is no use to tell me, that it was charged upon goods, for it is not so. there being an average profit-,say V,oc i? l profit on coffee, an d say 5 per cenit. oin dry goods, out of whicmh the discounts had to be paid. But again, in the fall of'40-41-42o, when Indiana sent us her scrip, and w\lhen her banks issued largely, wI]at di(ld the Indiana farnmers take home for their hogs? They took home their own fictitious capital, which we enjoyed at their expense and for whose use they had to pay. And,,again, permit me to refer to a case in point, which happened in the last two years. Austria is well known to have now more paper money, than any otter country in the world; Bavaria: also, has created large amounts of paper money, and France has in creased its paper circulation. These countries -sur round the Republic of S-witzerlarnd-the only Repub lic of any account in Europe, and strange, but true, also, the only hard money State in Europe. Accor ding to whig logic, that Rteputblic should have been drained of its specie. It should have been the plun. der ground for Austrian and French paper mrone~y. But not so! Thle reverse did happen, anid will happen any whlere else where the experiment may be tried. Switzerland wars filled with Specie, and of tffiis I speak by actual ocular demonstration. The metallic currency of Switzerland resisted all attempts of amalga. mation, and it becamte, not the plunder ground, bjut the common gtrounld, whence fled mluch of the gold and silver of France and Austria. And so it will always be. New York got the specie of Pennsylvania, when the latter followed the false lights of:Nick 1709 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, MARCH 4. Biddle, and so will any hard money State surrounded proposed to be stricken out, moved to insert after the by soft imoney States, get the advantage in trade, and word "resolved,,' these words, "that there be appro in every other way affecting business relations. priated to Col. Hawkins five hundred dollars, for the Why sir! It does not take half as much money as purpose of draining the black swamnps. (Laughter.) mostfolks suppose, to carry on our businessrelatiion. The CHAIRMAN said he could not entertain the I have lived and done business in hard money coun amendment. tries and I can say, that all this talk about a scarcity Mr. LAWRENCE, (in his seat.) I appeal from of money and the difficulty of carrying it about, that decision. are mere humbugs. Bills of exchange supply all Mr. SAWYER, (in his seat.) The gentlemen has these wants, and men not accustomied to business no right to appeal. (Merriment.) matters would be astonished to find, on examinatiun, Mr. GREEN of Ross. The gentleman from Ham that the largest of our transactions even now are con ilton says he has just given us the heads and outlines ducted without moving a single dollarof money. TL e of a speech which hlie intends to elaborate in print. I only difficulty lies here, that by the action of paler suppose, of course, the gentleman does not expect a money we have created an unnatural demand tor reply tothat speech; and therefore I suggest that the mnoney, and entirely unnatural state of affairs. With- speech of the gentleman from IHamilton be laid upon draw paper money and matters will soon assume a the table and ordered to be printed and distributed on regular order. The credit of our merchants would be the first Monday of December next. (Laughter.) better cast, for thle mercantile nmen there know, that Mr. HAWKINS said the amendment of the gentle business in all hard money States is more regular and man from Guernsey was in contravention of a clause has a surer basis. No deceptive appearances can be which was acted upon this morning, forbidding any used by Bank credit at home and every man enjoys special appropriations of money for purposes of in I git' i poveineii. P d meri-n.) precisely his legitimate credit and legitimate credit ternal improvement. (Contiii uedmerricment.) always goes farther than Bank credit, so that we The CHAIRMAN said the amendment was already should enjoy here a larger amount of eastern capital. ruled out of order. I claim for nmyself in this matter some little experi- Mr. TAYLOR. If this motion suceeds, I suppose ence-as a merchant formerly, not only here but in it will be equivalent to an expression of a determina Europe too, I have closely watched the workings of tion on the part of this Convention to pass over the our paper money system, and I can freely state, that whole subject of banking and urrency in silence. I do not now recollect a merchant using Bank credits 1 am inot disposed to dissent from this disposition of freely who remained solvent long, nor do I now re- the report. The report of the Standing Committee on collect a merchant, who used his credit sparingly, that Bankls and Currency was not concurred in by the Con broke. Nor do I now recollect a single merchant, vention, and such I believe, would have been the fate who became much connected with banks, that has of every proposition which might have been offered been successful in business. Those of our merchants upon the subject. who acted upon the hard money principle have been I have risen to express very briefly my views upon the most successful. this subject which have sot been expressed upon any This sir, is my experience! I have found all the previous occasion. Upon the subject of repeal I have c.ant phrases of bankites on scrutiny to be mere u- lnot uttered a syllable; upon the subject of banks I meaning terms, or more properly speaking meaning have interposed no remarks. But early in the sum the reverse. "Regulate the currency," shouldbe read. mer session I offered to the Convention a series of resdisorder the currency,-"create capital" means de- olutions emboaying the views which are entertained stroy it, "bank facilities" should be bank difficulties, by my constituents and myself upon this subject; and in facts short, banks bring about results directly the now I simply ask the attentioni of the Convention reverse of what is claimed for them by their pro- while I shall rehearse my views upou that subject. ceeds. I believe that a proposition of the character with that I do know that our trade, our business, our wealth, which I hold in my hand would be a very proper subour prosperity, our happiness and of the generations ject for the action of this Convention. As anll exposiafter us, isjeopardised by the creation and the use of tion of correct opinion, I will read it. paper money. Knowing this, I can not and I will not ARTICLE-. vote for any proposition that sanctions paper nmoney v f aiy propotin that santons paper money No svstem or institution of Banking, by which bills in a any man ner whatever. The State has not the in a any nianner whatever. The State has no r notes are authorized to circulate as money, shall power to charter banks and if it bad, it should not i powver to charter banks and if it had, it shouldnot exist in this State after the first day of January, 1854, use it. I shall therefore vote against the proposition e staise the'ray uay 1 submitted by the gentleman from Montgonery, (Mr, or be established by the General Assembly unless the submitted by the gentleman from Montgomery, (Mr. act or acts creating the same shall have been previously HOLT~~~~~~~~.)~.submitted to the people, and a majority of all the votes In conclusion, permit me to say, that I had one oh- at a general election shall be in favor thereof. ject in view in this matter, which I trust I have ac- A section to that effect would, it seems to me, have complished and that was to square the accounts be- a tendency very much to reconcile conflicting opintweeri the Feopleand the Banks undertheold Consti- ions upon this subject. Nosystem of banking should tution. I trust I have given the name of every Bank exist, or be authorized, without having been firstexand I believe my estimates are fair and correct. Per- pressly sanctioned by a popular vote. Under such a haps however some other person niore able than my- proposition the friends of the State Bank system self will finish motme fully, what I have undertaken, would be invited, prior to the year 1855, to present and that thus the fallacies of the friends of paper their system of a State Bank in its most favorable asmoney may be more fully exposed. pects before the people, and if our Whig friends are in I repeat than as my conviction after a careful ex- the right, they would thus have a fair opportunity of amination, that the history of paper money in Ohio gaining the popular sanction. If however, this systeaches this fact clearly that the people of Ohio have tem should not receive the popularsanction,thefriende lost, during the existence of the present Constitution, of the banks would still have an opportunity to subforty millions of their hard earnings, by the use of! mit another system; and if any system could receive paper money Instead of the currency of the Constitu-' the specific sanction and approval of the people, then tiners. the matter would rest quietly; whereas, now it cer Mr. LAWRENCE, by way of perfecting the words I tainly will not thus rest. But, if, on the other hand Soo OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, MARcH 4. a majority should decide against any system of bankimg, we would -till have the beinefit of the result of a full and free utterance of the will of the people of the State. Before I take my seat I wish to make another state. ment, in reference to this subject. I believe it is our duty, as representatives of the sovereignty of thepee a ple of Ohio, to present before the Congress of the nation, a resolution of this body reminding them cf their duty to regulate the currency of the country and furnish us with a constitutional standard of value, and requesting our Representatives and instructing our Senators to vote for a law suppressing all bank bills of the denomination of any description of our national coinage-thlus making gold and silver as the prevalent, as it is the only constitutional standard of value. If this body were to pass such aresolution, it would be a revival of the currency issue, which was insisted upon by Jackson, and which affords a practicable measure. Sir, if Congress were to tax out of existence all the small bank notes of the counrtry-tax them fifty or a hundred per cent.-tax them out of existence, as pro. posed by Thomas H. Benton, in his great speech upon the veto of the bank of the United States; we would very soon have ample scope and verge enough for a genuine California currency. Sir, I look back toward the efforts upon this subject, of 1832 and 1834, for the true solution of this question.' Give us a gold and silver currency; suppress small bank paper by Con. gressional action; and then I ani willing to leave the whole question of banking and currency to the action of a free people. I shall vote for striking out because I believe the section tobe inadequate; because I believe this question must rest, in a great degree, upon the action of Congress; because [here the ten minutes expired.] The qu'estion now being taken on the motion to strike out the first section, it was decided in the negaive. And then On motion by Mr. HAWKINS The committee rose and the Chairman reported the article to the Conivention, without amendnment. The question then recurring upon the enr,,rossment of the bill: Mr. KIRKWOOD proposed to anmend the report, by striking out sections 2, 3, 4 and 5. Thisi motion having been entertained by the President. Mr. KIRKWOOD said: I am satisfiedthat noprovision or section can be adopted in this Convention which will have the effect to restrict the power of the General Assembly in the creation of banks hereafter. Some gentlemen will oppose such provision because they do not desire such restriction; others because they are unwillitig to recognize the power of the General Assembly to create banks. Believing such to be the sense of the Cotivention, I have made the present motion for the purpose of saving time. It is known that I am lnot of the same opinion as those on this side of the clhainber, who will not vote for restrictions 0n banking in future, lest thereby they should recognize the power of the General Assembly to create banks. We all know-at least I think I know, that nuless we deprive the General Assembly of the power to create banks hereafter, that body will create them. I also know that heretofore these institutions have been granted privileges which never should have been conferred upon them. Knowing these facts to exist I am unwilling to shut my eyes to them and their consequences, but am desirous to restrict so far as I may b~ lq, ~at power which I cannot entirely destroy. Elntertaining these o pi nions I shall vote against the motion I h avee he made. I have mae it a t est question. If it shall not prevail I shall co ns ider it as an expression of opinion by the Convention that we are willing to act in this matter, and I shall the n be w i lling to go on and perfect the sections. If the motion shoall prevail, I shall have discharged my dutv. Mr. DORSEY. I do not know whether I understand pre cisely thevat wi ll be the effect of the propositioni of the gentlemalt from Richland, (Mlr. KinxwOOD,) but I am desirous that some action should be taken u pon this subject which shal l be satisfactory to the peQple of Ohio. I have no doubt but that the people expect some action; and the y have a ri ght to expect from this Cobvention that they will not ad - journi wit ho ut taking so me action uponll this subject. I do not think that tile people expect a recognition here of the principle that the Leg,islatuire have no power over the subject of banks; but I believe the people of Ohio do expect that this Convention, befre the termination of the session, will proceed to place some restrictions upon the Legislature with regard to the power they shall exercise i:.- reference to the banking institutions. But as we have spent a good deal of time upon this subject without coming to any result; and as I believe the people will be better satisfied with having this matter submitted to themselves in a separate form, so that they may determine for themselves the question whether the Legislature shall exercise this po wer or not. I propose to amend this resolution of the getleman from Montgomery, (Mr. HOLT,) by striking out all after the word "resolved," and inserting the propositions wlich I hold in ny hand, and which I will ask the privilege of reading. The PRESIDENT said the amendment would not be in order, until the pending question should be disposed of. Mr. DORSEY. I will read then, for information, what I will now give notice that it is my intention to offer, as soon as I may have an opportunity. Mur. D. then read the following: Resolved, That at the Election which shall be held for the adoption or rejection of this Constitution, the following propositions shall be submitted to the Eleetors of this state, in the mode following; to wit: A separate ballot shall be given by every person entitled to vote at such election, to be deposited in a separate box, on which shall be written or printed or partly written and partly printed, the woras "Exclusive Hard Moniey —Yes," or,,Exclusive Hard MoneyNo.,, If at such election, a majority of all the votes, given for and against such proposition shall contain the words ,Exclusive Hard Motiey-Yes," thetn the following section shall be inserted in this Constitution: 'From and after the adoption of this Constitution, it shall be unlawful for any person withiin this state, to make, emit, receive, circulate or pay out any bank note, bill or other evidence of debt, or any paper mediuro intended or calculated to circulate as motey, and the Legislature shall by law provide proper penalties against the samne." If at such election a majority of all the, votes given for and against such propositions shadl conltainl the words "~Exclulsive Hard Money —No," then thle Legislature shall provide at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution a General Banlkilg Lawn, embodying the following principles: ;1. No person shall be allowed to issue any bill or evidence of debt to circulate as money. unltil he shall have deposited with the Treasurer of State or such other officer as may be designated by law, a security ,for the whole amount of such issue, wvhich shall conI 801 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TuESDAY, MARCH 4. sist of United States stocks or stocks of this State, or1 such c.)ounity or other stocks within this state as nmay be aeterminied t,y law, and bills to circulate as money equal to the actual par value of such securities, but to no greater amount, shall be furnished by such officer, as above designated only, subject to such provisions as may be established by law. 2. No bill or evidence of debt of less denomination thai five dollars, shall be issued or circulated as money in this state. 3. Individual liability of all stockholders in bankiug institutions shall be provided by law. 4. The Legislature shall have no power to pass anny act sanctionilng directly or indirectly, the refusal of any individual or association issuilig Bank notes of any Description, to pay the same on deinand, anid provision shall be made by law, il case of the refusal of any i odividual or association to pay such demand as above, for the imimediate I quidation of the same from the proceeds of the securities deposited as above. 5. In case of the failure of any individual or anv associatioi issuing banik paper, the amount of security deposited with the state, shall first be applied to the redeneption of the circulation of such individual or associationl, and the remainder if any shall be payable on demrand to such individual or association, deducting therefrom the amrount of ally expenses accruing to the state, in process-ol liquidating such claims. If this proposition were adopted here, I believe it would effect all that the people desire and expect, at the hands of this Convention. It will secure to the people, if they desire any bailking system at all, the power of determinino that question at the polls, and f they should adopt it, the vstenm will go into effect under such a close and rigid restriction, as to prevent every possibility of fraud; and I hazard the assertion, that in a very great degree, a large amount of the evils which the gentleman from Hamnilton intends to depict in the speech which hlie has promised to publish, would be altogether cured unider such a system as this. In the first place, the plan which I propose, would allow of no system of banking which did not deposit ample security against failures. It would not allow a bank to raise one dollar upon security, and two or three dollars w ithout security; and it would require that such security should be deposited where it would be secure to the bill holders. But sir, it does more, far more than this-for I claim sir, for this system, that it offers to us the only means for arriving ultimately at a hard moriey system in Ohio. To that system sir, I am willing and ready to come, so soon as the people and the circumstances by which they are surrounded, will allow such a thing to be done. It will be observed that the security which I propose to give for every single dollar which the banks shall issue, is thie stocks of this State or of the United States. No dollar of money would issue from any bank in this State, which would not have as its basis, and pledged for its security and redemption, an equal amount of stocks at their par value, deposited with the proper officers at the capitol of the State. Then the security would be amnple, and the greatest danger of superabundance of paper issues would be guarded against, this is one important step towards a metallic currency. Bitt again the amount of these securities themselves, is by their very nature, limited -the State debt is by this constitution, put in a speedy process of liquidation, and can never again, except uhcder very peculiar contingencies, be brought into existence, our State bonds in twenty or twenty-five years, will in great measure, have ceased to exist. As the basis ceases, the circulation founded on it ist withdrawn. and specie fills the vacant channels of trade —-and thus by a slow and gradual, but by a cer —a . ain process, we co me tl o a metalic cunhencg —e have no sud den changes, no yiolent revulsions, such as must take plaepe to a mo s t ruinous de gree, whenever 'we attempt by violetnt epoac idents to force a chbange of currencv on the people, and bring with it, as it riesarily oonust, a sudden cha n ge in t he value of all property-bhit the wants of c ommerce and the people, aseconBmodate themselves to gradual changes. and neither evil or s uffer sting follows in their train. It is or this reason sir, among many others which might be mentioned, did my limited time permit, that I would propos,e this as one im ortaynt restriction ifi the system of banking which shall hereafter become operative in this State. The system provides also against the issuing of small niotes —which must be regarded as a very imiportaint regulation. It requires also the individual liability of the stock holders, in such manner as the legislature shall piescribe. It provides that there shall be no suspension of scie payrments. It also provides that in the event of a failure, tihe bill holders-the community at large who have taken th-i-r promises to pay-shall be the first creditors paid off; so that they shall be secured at all IIazards. Now I affirmtn that the people of Ohio are willing to accept of a banking system of this kind; and I may say in conclusioni, that one of two things will be done here. This Convention will either do what the people want or what the people do not want. Either they will separate without doing anything on the subject of banking, which has heretofore been a crying evil in this State, and leave the Legislature the power of incorporating into some general law all the evils of the old system of banks under special charters, and with this culpable neglect of duty I- say the people will not be satisfied; or else they will have some re. strictions in the constitution by which the Legislature would be restrained from the imprudene, which has heretofore Tnarkeel their proceedings uponil this subject, and that will be exactly what the people will be satisfied with, and what they most ardently desire. Now I believe that this body knows enough of the views, OpiniODS, and interests of the people, to fix upon some plan of legislative restriction here, which will exactly answer the wishes of the people. I believe that the proposition of which I have here given notice of my intention to ofter, contains a sufficient amount of restriction upon this subject. I believe that I have hiere made out the skeleton of a b-ankilg system, which canl be filled up by the Legislature ir such a way as to meet all the reasonable w ants and wishjes of the people upon this subject. Mr. HOLT. I conicur fully in the st, ying of the gentlernan from Miami. (Mr. DoRsEY,) that the people expect something from the Convention upDni this subject; and I believe they will be sadly disappointed if we should adjourn without anything being done. I am not tenacious about this particular plan. I am not a banker. I profess not to be even a good financier. But, having some general notions upon the subject, I have prepared a scheme which I believe may be arimnded atili modified so as to bring about what the people desire, My proposition is this —and I beg the atten~tion of ny democratic friends, for they mast be responsible for the action or non action of this body upon this subject. I desire that thes people of Ohio, at some period, shall Je brought into the adoption of a metalic currency, arnd that alone, excepting bills and drafts intfroduced by the mercantile business, and banks Sof deposite for b~usinless purposes. I wish to bring the people of Ohio, at somne time, to this point; not too suddenly, butstrad i i I I 802 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, MARoa 4. Collings, Cook, Dotsey,Ewart,Florence, Gillett,Gray,Greeie of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Haw kins,Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Hootman, Hun ter, Larwill, Leech, Loudon, Macon, Mitchell, Morris, Mc Cloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Au.laize, Sellers, Smith l of Warren, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell, Swift, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of But'er, Williams, Wilson, 'Woodbury aNd WQrthingtop-55. a NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Clark, Ewing, Farr, Forbtes, Gray, Holmes, Holt, Humphreville, Hunt, King, Kirkwood. Lawrence, Norris, Stickney, Struble, Taylor and Way-1. So the motion to strike out was agreed to. The question then being on ordering the first sec tion to be engrossed. Mr. HOLT demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 54, nays 19, as fol — lows: YEAs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Chaney, Collings, Dor sey, Ewart,Farr, Forbes. Graham,Gray, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Kinl,, Kirk wood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stri ble, Swift,''aylor,Thompon of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Way, Woodbury and Worthington-.54. NAYS-Messrs. Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Ewing, Flo rence, Gillett, Green of Ross, Gregg, Harlan, Henderson, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Quigley, Smith ot Highland, Smith of Warre n, St an ton, Stilwell, Williams and Wilson- sl So the section was ordered to be engrossed. And on moti o n wa s orde red t o be re ad thir d time on Wednesday the 5th inst. Mr. LAWRENCE submitted the following: Resolved, That the Messenger boys to this Conven tion be allowed one dollar and fifty cents per day from the commencement of the sessions of the Convention in compensation for their services. Mr. REEMELIN moved to lay the resolution on the table, which was disagreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the Resolution. Mr. FORBES moved to amend the resolution by inserting after the word "Convention" when it occurs the second time,the words "in the city of Cincinnati," which was agreed to. Mr. GRAY moved the previous question. The question then being "shall the main question be now put," it was agreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the resolution as amended. Mr. REEMELIN demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 71, nays 10, as follows: YeAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archl'a1Id, Bat-net of Montgomery" Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blair, Blickeiisderfev, Brown of Carroll, Cahll, Case of Licking, Clianev, Cook, Dorsey, Ewait, Ewing, Florence, F)rbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiane, GCeel,i of Ross, Groesbek, Hamniltoni. Hard,Hitchock of Geau' ga, Holmnes, Holt, Hootmrtan, Htirtpl)hreville, Huit, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Laech, Lead. hetter, lidev, Loudon, Manon, Ma.:on, Mithell, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck,Qtiigley, Rantney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smnith of H ghlandt, SmTxith of Warren, Stel)l)ills, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Strutble, Swan. Thomlpsom of Stark, Townshenid, Vance of Butler, Warreti, Way, Witson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-7-. NAY-S-Messrs.Chambers, Clark, Collin~,s Harlan,.HawkinhS Larsh, l,arwill, Morris, McCloud and Reeieli-n-1. i So the r esolution was agreed to. Mr. PATTERSON submitted the following: Resolved, That the Committee on Revision be instructed to insert the following clause in the Constitution: "Peaceful adverse possession of real estate, for the period of twenty-one years, accompanied with apparent paper title thereto, shall vest the fee simple thereof absolutely in the occupant holding the same- but statutes for the limitation of acqions, enacting a shorter limitation than t we~aty. one years, shall be constitutional." Mr. PATTERSON said he had received instant nally, to effect what the majority of the standing com mittee on this subject sought, in vain, to bring the peo ple to at once. I have stated my objection t o th e prop osition of t he standing comniittee, to be, not because I objected to a hard money currency, but beca use I be lieved the people were not prepared for it. I would not proceed so gradually, if I did not believe that an attemp t to mak e a more rapid movement would be to retard our progres s. F or I am entirely c onvi nc ed that we need no banks of issues and cir culation in tihis country, and I would be ready to make any effort to d ispense w i th them, which I could think would suc ceed. I have propose d, therefore, to dispense with these ninstitution s gradually, until the clos e of the term which has been fixed for the continuance of the present bank ing syst em; and then, by the operation of the princi ple which I have here intr oduced, to bring the peo ple to a pure metalic currency. I wish to see this tried. I have great confidence in the experiment. I believe, if the p e ople could once have the pri vileg e of trying thi s currency for five years, i n the manner I have proposed, that this question would be pabt to rest, and that there w ould be no further diffi culty about it. Therae tarte two or three section s in the amendment, of the gentlem en from Miami, whic h I would most cor diall y acc ep t as m odificati ons of my p roposition. One of these is, that the legislature shall never legalize a suspensi on of specie payments. A- nother is, the exclu siono t e of al Potesof circulation below the denomination of $5; bu I would say, that n o b ills should circulate o f t he s ame denomination of any coin of'othe United States. There is anothe r provision i n th is proposition which I desir te the convention to regard, in all their votes for a banking system; which is, tha t there shall be no maclinery abou t them by which t hey can ever receive a gretater rate of interest t ha n the statute allows t o eve ry ci n a tizen. I am par ti cularly attached to this provision. The privilege which a banker enjoys of receiving twelve per cent interest, whils t the citize n ca only receive six per cent., is a privilege which every mannot to to s ay every democrat-ought to oppose with all his might. In fact, in many cases, the banker now is abl e to realize thre e tim es the r ate of interest which is allowed to a private individual. I h av e littl e objection to the amendment of the gentleman from Miami, further than this, it brings the people. in my judgment, to vote upon an important question at the wrong time. The present are the palmtest days cf the itae Bank sos, m, Cand I cannot but think that it would be a most unpropitious period to submit the question. I believe that the people will yet change their opinions upon this subject very ma terially; and for this reason I should greatly prefer to subtnit the question in the manner 1 have pro osed. If the people should vote ire favor of banks, we would be compelled to have them. The gentleman says that his system is well guarded but I defy the power of man so to guard any system of banking that they may not take usury. Our statute has been full of amendments and provisions of law to keep the banks honest, but still entirely without effect. Mr. MIT'CHELL moved the previous question. The question then being "'shall the main question be now put," it was agreed to. The question being on striking out'all after the first section. Mr. HOLT demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted, yeas 55, nays 19, as follows: YEzs-Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble. Bates, }3lickesderfer. Brownof Carroll~f~hmbers, Challe 52~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 52 t 9 i 0 s 0 8 SfA OHIO COrNVENTION DEBATES-TUESDAY, MARCI 4. lions from a number of his constituents in refer*once to this matter. Hie did not desire to detain the Convention with aly speech upon a proposition so well understood as this. He would content himself with saying, that this resolution was so worded as to obviate the objections which were taken to the same subject, whei it was under consideration the other day. ie hoped itworld meet now with the approbat-ion of the body, and called for the yeas and nays upon its adoption. Mr. LEADBETTER was opposed to all statutes of limitations. They only increased the facilities of stealing land titles. The Legislature might,hesometimes thought, just as well pass a law allowing a maii to steal a horse, and as to pass a statute of limitat~ions. He was especially oppose d to the idea of conferring title on account of the mere act of possession. There was neither sense, propriety, nor justice it it. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, said the question involved on the adoption of this resolution was simply, whether it would be proper to change our linimitationlaws,or not. The proposition here submitted was a law of the land now,with this exception, that, under the statute of limitations, peaceable possession for twenty-one years vests the title in the possessor, whether he has any paper title, or not. But here tis is proposed to be changed, so that the occupant nmust have, at least, an apparent paper title. Mar. PATTERSON rehearsed the particular case of a gentleman from Ross county, whom he met with wrien he was a candidate for this Convention, who, with his pocket full of"blocks," confidently expected is} succeed in ousting an occupant of forty years. Mr. HITCHCOCK knew there was a great deal in these "block laws." But, if he were going to give a cinstruction of this proposition, he would say, that it would preselnt the difficulty of legalizing the claim of a squatter upon la-d belonrging to the United States. The law, as it now stood, was precisely what the aentieman desired, except that possession could not seeure a title against the United States. Mr. STANTON could see no objections to a conititutional provision securing to a man the title to his home, upon principles of equalitv and justice. But, as he did not see anything in the resolutions which was not now coiontainled iin the statute of limnitations, in order to put it into such a shape that lhe ould vote for it, he would move that it be referred to a select committee of three. This motion was lost. The question then being upon the adoption of the resolution. Mr. PATTERSON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yea.s 35, nays 38, as follows: Y.As-Messrs. B'air, B!ickeiisderfer, Cahill, Case of LickiinL, e:)rsee, E ing G,-ay, Greene sf Defiance, Gremg, Had1d, HacvICt',Heirderston, Hohilies, Hint,Joues, in', lawiuete, Ln diti o. e.,nltlon,Ma on, Mor is,Pattersoit, Rteej.eli I,Roll,,SaoCyesr. Scolt oif Arlaize. Sewers. Stanton,. Stice. Sidger, Strhlleje, Swift, Towushenld, Warren aud Way-'I 5. N'sY-M(tss. Barnet of Mo.stgorriery, Burnett of P;eble, .Piles, Benneil. Browl! oS AtI'eiis, Sr ow5T of Canp'l, ChainbiersC isaney, Cia'k C olliiis. Cook, Ewart, G ltett. Green of Ross u Hz lan. Htchoet~k of GeaugFa, Holt, Hiootmran, Hortonl, Humilp'-evile, Hunter, Larsh, LIee sb, I eahllCetter, Mtecheln, MoChn atad, lt,rris, 0,';S, Peek',;qigi'ey, Smilh of Highland, Soith of WarGsra",, Siilwell Ti,oiipisoa of Stark, Vance of Butler, Woodbury ~,orthlilgmn and Presidel —:_'8. So the resolution was rejected. Mr. EWART, from the select committee on the ,chedule, submitted the following Report, which was read,the first time. REPORT NUMBEI ONE, OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE SCHEDULE SEC. 1. All laws of this State in force on the first day of September, 1851, not inconsistent with this Constitution.. shall continue in force until amended or repealed. SEC. 2. The fir st electi on fuoi r mem ibers of the General Assemblty u nder this Constitution shall be held on the second Tuesday of Oc tober, 185 e. to hold their offices for one year. -to co mmen ce on th e firs t Monday of January, following their electio, until which time the merm bers ot the General Assembly now in office shall hold over no longer. SE(,. 3. The first election for Lieutenant Governor, Audltor of State, and,Attorney General for the State shall be held on the second Tuesday of October, 18.51; the Lieutenantt Governor to hold his office f or one y ear fr om t he f irst Monday of Januar y fol lowin g his election. ithe Auditor oef State, and Attorney General fo r th e Sta te in of fice shall h old their o i until the first Monday in April, l. SEc. 4. The first election for Governor, Treasurer and Secretary of State shall be held on the second Tuesday of October, 1852. T'iCe Governor iln ffic ee on the first day of Sep tember, 18-1, shall hold his offi c t e ntil the f irst Monday if January, 1853. The Treastrer a nd Secretary of State iln office to hod ein u the ir offices until the first Monday o f April, 1853. SEC. 5. The first election for Judges of the Supreme Court, Courts of Common Pleas, and Probate Courts, and ('letks of the C ourts of C ommon Pleas shall be held on the second Tuesday of October, 1851. Judles and CIerks of the Courts of Commonanon Pleas anid upr,nnf e Court in office on the first day of September, 1851,. shall c,itiniue in office with their present powers and duties until the second Monday of February, 1852. All suits a,.,d proceedings of every description pending in aly of the ( ounts of this State snail remain unchanged by the taking effect of this Constitution. Savc. 6. Members of the Poard of Public Dorks, Directrs of the Penitentiary, Dlirector)s of the Eetievolenit Institutions of the State, and the State Librarian in office on the firstday of September, 1851, shall continue in office until their terms expire Tespectively, unless the General Assemnbly shall otherwise provide. SEc 7. The Superior alla Conmmercial Courts of Cincinnati, and the Superior Court of (Clevelanid shall remrain until otherwise provided by law, with their present power and jurisdictionl; a d the Judges axd Clerlis of' said Courts in office on the first day of S beptcmter, 185a, shall continue in office until the expiration of their terms of office respective ly, or until otherwise provided by law. SEc. 8. All County and Township officers and Justices of the Peace in office on the first day of September, 1851f. shall continue ill office until their terms expire respectively. SE.c. 9. All vacancies in office accruing afterthe first (or of September, 1851, and before the ele tions provided for in this article, shall i,e filled, as is now pro vided by law. Sec. 10. This Constitution sitall take effect on the first day of September, 18-51 S,~c. 11. All offic! rs shall conatinlue in office until tlwir successors shall be chosen ant qualified. SEC. 12. The suits pendin.tg in the Supreme Court in Baink shall stand transferred to the Supreiie Court piovitled ton in this Constitution. andi be proceede,2 in according to law. SEC. 13. 1'The District Coi,rts provi(led for in this (!onsti.. iution, shall be the successors of the present Supreme Court, in the samre Counties, and all suits, prosecutions, jutl — z.ments records alld proceedings peiding in said Supreme Court in the several Counties in arly I -)istrict, shall stE nd transferred to the District Court in which any County may be int,3udel,, and be proceeded in as thoug,h no charge had been made iu said Suprelyme Court. S,F. 14. The Courts of Common Pleas provided for In this Constitution shall be the successors of the present Courts of Co)mmon Pleas in tt e several counties, except as to the jurisdiction given by this Constitution to the I rohate Courts created bv it: and ill suits prosecution,iis, proceedings, records and judgmi-enits lpeniding or being in the prel sent I oclrs of Common Pleas, except as above, shall stand transfcrrol to the Couits of Common Picas provided foril this Consti. tution, and proceeded in [is though no change had been made in the present Court of Co mmon Plea,. SE~C. 15. The Probate Court1ts plrc, vie i for ill this Constitutioll, shall be the successor iln the several C'ounties of the present Courts of C~ommon Pleas as to all probate andl testarnentary matters, thle appxointmrenlt of Admlinistrator~s amll Guardians, arnd 1he settlemrenlt 6f tile accounts of Exsecutors, Administrators and t(uardian-s, andt the recorids thereof shall stand transferred to saidl Co;urts of Probate, andl be there pro. eedeal ill according to law.o ; ~~~~~THO)S. BAT. EWART, fi~ 1E ~}~ No sA St'1, ~J.A'5TTHE'W~ H. tMITGi{E}~L, NORTOif.N S. TOW~XSHI:ND, JAS~ES8 B. KIN'& II I 804 OIH[O r'O)NVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, MARCH 5. 805 On motion of Mr. EWART, the rules were siispeii- Resolved, That the publishers of one weekly newsded and the Report was read a second time. paper of each political party printed in the English Mr. EWART moved that the Secretary be author ],-ngua.,e ill every county of this State, where such ized to have the Report printed forthwith, which was paper exist, be authorized to publish in their respeeagreed to. t tive weekly journals, the Constitution now being Onl motion of Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, the framed by this Convention for four consecutiveweek.q Report was committed to a committee of Whole Con- preceeding the day of voting upon the question of veltion. the adoption of said Constitution. Mr. EWART, from the select committee on the Resoled, That the publishers of all the weekly Schedule, submitted the following:e Schedule, subitted the following: newspapers in this State printed in the German lan REPORT NO TWO guagre be authorized to publish said Constitution in OF THiE SELECT COMmITTEE ON THE SCHEDULE. their respective weekly journals fir the same length Resolved, That the foregoing Constitution shall be submit- of time antd in the same inauner as prescribed in thetel to a vote of the Electors of the State of Ohio, at an e ec- foregoinrg resolution. tion to be held on the eourth day of July, 185, in the sev-ed That the Auditor of an count eral election distiicts, of this State. T'he ballots at such Resoled, That te Auditorof any ount,in which election to be written or printed as follows, viz: Those in there exists more than one newspaper of the same po-: favor of the adoption of the foregoing Constitutioni, "New litical party prinlted in the Eng;lish language, be au('onstituati,n., Yes," and those against its adoption, Ne thorized to desigate the paper, which shall publish Constitution, No." Said election shall be conducted. a on Provided that be shall in allcases thereturns thereof made and certified to the Secretary aid Constitutin. Provied that he shall iallcases State, as provided by law for annual elections of State and select the one having the largest general circulation County officers. Within thirty days after said election, the in the county where published Secretary of State shall, in the presence of the Governor, ,pen the reurns made to his office; and if it shall appear Resolved, That such publlshers of newspapers as that a mnajority of all the votes given at said election are in may, in compliance withl the foregoing resolutions; favor of the adoption o the foregoing Constitution, the publish said Constitutions be paid therefor the sumrn Governor shall issue his proclamation setting forth that lact, f seventy-five cents per tho nd ers for each iand the said Constitution shall be the CoInstitution of the of seventy-five cents per tho nd ers for each istate of Obijo, and not otherwise. Isertion. out of any money which is now or which ~~mOn motion of Mr. NASH, there after be appropriated to defray the expeilses On motion of Mr. NASH, the report was laid on of [hsCneto n rsnaino, t e r r s e t the table, and the Secretary was autthorized to hav of this Convention on presentation of their respective accounts to the State Treasurer. tihe same printed forthwith in this city. accounts to tLe State Treasurer. Mr. STANTON submitted the followitng, which. LEECH C. J. ORTON. was agreed to. C. J. ORTON. Resolved, That the current printing of the Conven. S. HAMILTON. tion, until the final adjourinment, shall be done in this On motion of Mr. LEECH, the rules were suspended city, uiider the dlirection of thIe Secretar}. anid the Report was read a second time. On motion of Mr. SMITH of Warren, And, onI motion of the same gentleman, the Report The Coaventioe adjourned. was committed to a committee of the whole Conveln -— ~~~~~~tion. ONE ILUNDIRED AND THIRTIETH DAY. The Reportof the select committee on the subject WEDNESDAY, March 5, 1851. of Temperance was read a third tinie. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. | The question then being on the passage of the Re Thle Convention met pursuant to adjournment. port. NlMr. QUIGLEY moved the previous quies,tion. Mr. LEECH from the select committee on the sub- rTh e question then being, "shald the mprev us q estiuon ject of printing submitted the following Report: The queston te beig shall the i question i be uiow put;;" it was agreed to. rEPOaT OF THE SELECT COMMITrTEE ON'THr SUBJECT OF The question then beilig on tlhe passage of the PRaI-NTING. Report, The select committee on the,subject of printing to I Mlr. LAWRENCE demanded the yeas aind nays, which was referred a communication fromr the Eli- whhich wece ordered, and resulted-veas 51, niays 31 torial State Convention, have had the same under con- as foll(,ws: sideration, and now respectfully repcrt. .h, communication cont~bns.wo,ecomm.ndati'ns,. I.s-Messrs. Barite! of Moitgorn,ry, Bate,, Blair, Bick: The cormmunilcationt contr.ins etwo recownnnclations, eoe i Browi t Atfeii, Bow roll. Cill oase of which are suibstantially as follows: Li it Chailers, Cae, Coliii's (,o-) F.uie First, that the Constitution now being fr ame d ty, iot Muon, Mis, Mkw,ou, Ll W"c, this Convention be published in at least one newspa- si-, -nrri, o, atte,sn Pec k Perkiins, Qiigly, Raliper of each political party in every cooulity in the,,,i., [ -ehle, Saiyilr of' Waorren. Stn cry, Stickiiey, State, where such paper exist for at least four weeks St'i,-. Strultie, Swa,,, Tl impson of Stark,'owniIeid Warproceeding lthe day of voting upon the question of the -e, ty. Wilsolg WPrieliiit', adoption of said Constitution. N,,Y Messi. Barlett of Preile. Cir-y, DI)r-e,,; Eivart Secondly, th a t this Convention make provision for (,-ay. Gaeee ot' Deliasice, Green ofn R, Hareivi, lieoul,,i of G~ are's Holiles, lio(,tnia,., H,)i~oii hii, ln'iie iilr the election by the people of a Printer to the State, Jts,j,, J s g Larsh Larwil, Lidey i'tclti,ltstill Reenteliin, the rate of whose compensation shall be fixed by S(-itt,f Al(iaiz., S.llers, Srnilitti (t Hhla,- d. Sta toi, Sellaw.,ils, Silwell, Swvilt, Tay!or atid VatL(-c of Botier-31i. The majority of the committee, (Messrs. LEECH and So the article was passed. ORTON,) were decidedly inl favor of carrying, into effect Arnd on motion, referred to the committee on Rethe second recommendation embraced iml the comiuti- vsioi, Enrollment and Arrang'emont nicatioa. But the Convention has decided, that the Report number one of the corminittee on MiscellaState Printing shall be "let on contract to the lowest neons Subjects anrd Propositions was read a third responsible bidder." The majority of the committee time. .are therefore compelled, with great reluctance, toyield The question then being on the passage of the to that decision. Report. in the first recommendation the committee unaui- Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geaouga, moved that the Remously concur, arid recommend the adoption of the port 1)0 recomecitted to the standing committee on the following resolutions. subject; which was agreed to. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —W EDNSDAY, MARCH 5. SEc. 8. The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety require it. SEc. 9. All persons shall be bailable by sufficient sureties, unless for capital offences where the proof is evident, or the presumption great.-Excessive bail shall not be required; nor excessive fines imposed; nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. SEc. I0 Except in cases of impeachment and cases arisingin the army and navy, or in the nilitia, when in actual service, in tinme of war, or public daoger, and in cases of petit larceny and other in)ferior offences, noa person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous ecrime, unless on presentment or indictment of a grand jury. In any trial, in any court, the party accused shall be allowed to appear and defend it) person and with counsel, to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him and to have a copy thereof; to meet the witinesses face to face, and to have compulsory process to procure the attendance of witnesses in his behalf, and a speedy public trial by a&1 impartial jury of the county or district in which the offence is alleged to(, have been comnmitted; nor ashall any person be compelled, in any criminal case, to be a witness against himiseif, or be twice put in jeopardy for the same offence. SEC. 11. Every citizen ma: freely speak, write, and publish his sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of the right; and no law shall be passed to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech or of the press. In all crimitnal prosecutions or i,idictments for libel, the truth may be given in evidence to the jury, and if it shall appear to the jhry that the matter charged as libelous is true, and was published with good motives and for justifiable. ends the party shall be acquitted. SEC. 12. No person shall ve t ransported out of the State, for a nry offen ce committed within the sa me; and no convicti on shall w or k cor rupt i on of blood, or forfeiture of estate. SEC. 13. No soldier shall. in tinme of peace, be quartered in any house, without the consent of tlhe ow,,er; nor, in time of war, except in the manner prescribed by law. SEC. 14. The right of the peo ple to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and possessions, again.s,t unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not b e violated; and no warrant shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched, atod the persoils and things to be seized. SEC 15. No person shall be imprisoned for debt in any civil action, or mesue or final process, unless in cases of fraud. SEc. 16. All courts shall be open,and every perso-n for an in'ury done Ivan in his land, goods, person or reputation, shall have remedy by due course of lawn and justice, administered without denial or delay. Sec. 17. No hereditary emoluments, honors, or pr,)ileges, shall ever be granted or conferred by this Stat;. SEC. 18. No power of suspending laws shball ever be exercised, unless by the Gerne.ral Assembly. SEC. 19. This enumeration of rights shall.not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people; and all powers, nlot herein delegated) remain with the people. SEC. ~2D. Private property shall ever be held inviolate, but subservient; to the public welfare. W~henx taken inl time of war, or other public extigency, itnperatively requiring its immnediate seizure, ~or for the purpose of making or repairing roads, which shall ie open to the public use, without toll or other charge therefor, a compensation shall be made tothe owner, in money; and in all other cases} where private prop The article submitted by Mr. HOLT, on the subject of Banki ng and Currency, was read a third time. The question being on the passage of the article, Mr. LIOUDON moved that the article be committed to the select commit tee o n Finan ce an d Taxation. On which motion Mr. KING demanded the yeas an d nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 47, nays 39, as fo llows: ~E.s —Me, us. Bariie t of Montgomerv,Barnett of Preble. Bates, B'air. Brown of Atheot s, Cark, tCoi!ings,t. i Coo k, Cirry, Doerey, Ewartl, Farr, Gillett, Giay, HaLd, Harla-, He-tderson, Hitchcock o f GReauga, Hoot.llanx, Horton, Hlmatnrerpeville, Hunt, EJo nes iro, Kikwood,Larsh, Lawreice, Loudon,Mao, bi Mason M orr is, icClo u d, McC ormiick, Norris, Otis, Reequelipt, Riddle, Sawyer, Smith of Highland,Stavnherv,Ta y tor, Thompson of Starkfo, Toawlishend, Va,c e of But wer, Warr e yo,Wilso m, n Worth, ington a nd President-47, NAYS-Me,srs. Biickeniscderfer. Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Cliatiessers, Chaney, Florence, F)rhtes, Greene of Detiapce, Green of Ross, Hamrilton,Hawkins, Holmiies, Holt.Huntter, King, Larwill, Leech, Liey, Mitchell, _Gnsh,Oa lon Pattehrso,i,Peck, Perkils, Quiaeley, Raniiey,Scott of Harrison,Scott of Auglaize, S ellers Soith ot Warren,, Stanton, Stebbins, Stilwell,Stickney e, aSriager, dStrlhe, Swah, Swift ar,d War-u39. St th e motio n to recormmit to the select committee was agreed to. Mr. RANNEY, from the standing committee on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment submitted the fo llowing Repor t. REPORT NUMBER ONE OF THE COMMITTEE ON REVISION, ARRANGEMENT AND ENROLLMENT. PREAMBLE ANVD BILL OF RIGHTS. SicTIon 1. All men are by nature free and independenit, and have certain inalienable rights, among w hich are th ose of enjoy ing and defe nd ing life and libe rty, acquirin g, po ssessing and protecting property, and seeking an d oftaiping happiness and safety. SEC. 2. All political power is inher ent in the people. Government is inst itu ted for their equal protection aind benief it; a nd they have the right to alter, re form, or abolish the same, wheneve r they may deem it necessary; and no special privileges o. immunities shall ever be granted that may not be altered, re~'oked, or repealed by the General AsFembly. SEC. 3. The pe ople have th e rightt o a ssem ble to gether, in a p eac eable manner, bt o consult f or their common good. to instruct t heir Representatives, and to petition the General Assembly for tbhe redress of grievances. SEC. 4. T he peop le hav e the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, it} time of peace, a re dange rous to lib erty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power. SEc. 5. The right of trial by jury shall be inviolate. SEC. 6. There shall be no slavery in this State; nor involuntary servitude, unless for the punishment of crime. SEC. 7. All men have anataral and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience. No person shell be compelled to attend, erect, or suip)port any place of worship, or maintain any form of worship, against his consent; and no preference shall be given, by law, to any religious society; nor shall any interference with the rights of conscience be permitted. No religious test shall be required as a qualificationl for office, nor shall any person1 be inlcomlpetent to be a witness on account of his religious belief; but nothing herein shall be construed to dispense with oaths and affirmations. Religion, morality and knowledge, however, being essential to'good government, it shall be the duty of the General Asselnbly to pass suitable laws, to protect eveiv religious denomination in the peaceable enjoyment M'its own1 mode of public worship, and to encourage schools, and the mleans of iratraction., t t t i 806 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WPDNESDAY, MARCEI 5. SEc. 14. Neither House bhall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than two days, Sundays excluded; nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shall be in session. Sac. 15. Bills may originate in either House, but may be altered, amended, or rejected in the other. Sec. 16. Every bill shall be fully and distinctly read, on three different days, unless, in case of urgency, three-fourths of the House in which the question shall be pending, shall dispense with this rule. No bill shall contain more than one subject, which shall be clearly expressed in its title; and no law shall be revived, or amended, unless the new act contain the entire act - revived, or the section or sections amended; and the section, or sections, so amended, shall be re pealed. SF.c. 17. The presiding officer of each Ilouse shall sign, publicly, in the presence of the House over which he presides, while the same is in session, and capable of transac'.ing business, all bills and joint resolutions passed by the General Assembly. SEc. 18. The sty!e of the laws of this State shall be, "Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Ohio.,,. SEC. 19. No Senator or Representative shall, during the term for which he is elected, nor for one year thereafter, be appointed to any civil office under this State, which shall be created, or the emoluments of which shall have been increased, during the term for which he was elected. Sac. 20. The Ge -eral Assembly, ini cases not provided for in this Constitution, shall fix the term of office, and the compensation of all officers; hut no change therein shall affect the salary of any oveer during his existing term, u hlt-ss the office be abolished. SEec. 21. The General Assembly shall determine, by law, before what authority, and in what.- maiiiner, the trial of contented elections shall be conducted. SEC. 22. No money shall be drawn from the treasury, except in pursuance of a specific appropriation, made by law; and no appropriation shall be made for a longer period than two years. SEC. 23. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment, dbut a ntajurit y o f the members elected mrlist concur therein. Impeach meaits shall be tried by tile Senate; and the Senators, when sitting for that purpose, shall be upon oath or affirmation to do justice according to law and evidence. No person shall be convicted, without the concurrence of two-thirds of the Senators. SEc. 24. The Governor, Judges, and all State officers may be impeached for anv misdemeanor in office; but judgment shall not extend further than remorval from office, and disqualification to hold any office under the authority of this State. The party impeached, whether convicted or not, shall be liable to indictment, trial, and judgment, according to law. Sec. 25. All regular sessions of the General As sembly shall commence on the first Monday of January, biennrially. The first session under this constitution shall commence on the first Monday of January, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-two. SEC. 26. All laws of a general nature, shall have a uniform operation throughout the State; nor shall any act, except such as relates to public schoo)ls, be passed, to take effect upon the approval of any other authority than the General Assembly, Pexcept as otherwise provided in this conmstitution. Sm. 27. The election and appointment of all officers, and the filling of all vacancies nlot otherwise directed by this constitution, or the constitution of the United States, shall be made in such manner as may be directed by law; but no such power erty shall be taken for public use, a compensation therefor shall first be made in money, or first secured by a deposit of mioniey; and such compensation shall be assessed by a jury, without deduction for benefits to any p ro perty of the ownter. LEG ISLATIVE. SCriON 1. T he Legislative p ower of this State stall be ves ted in a General Assembly, which shall consis t of a Senate and House of Representatives. S. 2. Sena tors and Representatives shal l be elect ed biennially, by the elec ters in the respective edun maes aor districts, on the secolnd Tuesday of October; their term of office s,hall be two years and commence on the firstdayf Janary next a f the Jtheir elec tion. Sh. 3. Sieniators and Siepresetltatives shall have resided in their res pective counties, or districts, one year nexit preceding their election, unless they shall hav e been absen t o i th e public business of the United 'State s, or of this State. SEc. 4. No person holding office under the author ity of the United States, o r any lucr ative office under the authority of this State, shall be eligible to, or have a seat in, th e G ener al Assemnbly; but th is provisio n shall not extend to township officers, justices of t,e peac e, n otarie s pmblic, or officers of the militia. SE*. 5. No p erson he r eafter convicted of an ernebe zl ement of th e public fund s shall hold any office in this State; nor shall any person, holding public mo nley for disbursement o r o therwise, have a seat io the General Assembly, until he shall have accounted for and paid such money into the treasury. Su. 6. Each House shall be judge of the election, aeturns, and qualificatioons, of its own Snetnbers; a ce,majorit y of all the members elected to each House, shall be a quorum a to do busin ess; but, a le ss enriber Amay ad i ourn from day to day, and compel the atteud-ance of absetit members, in such manner, and under such periaties; as shall be prescribed by law. Samc. 7. The mode of organizing the H ouse of Represeltatives at the cominmedcenlent of each regular session, shal I be presdribed by law. SM. 8. Each louse, e xept as o therwise provided is this Constit.iol, sh all choose its own officers, m ay determnine its own rules of proceeding, punish its members for disorderly conduct, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member, but not the second time ,for the sar.ecau-; and shall have all other powers necessary to provide for its safety, and the undisturbed tran~saction of its business. Sac. 9. Each House shall keep a correct journal of its proceedings, which shall be published. At the desire of any two mnembers, the yeas and naeys shall be entered ulpon the journal; and on tile passage of every bill, in either House, the vote shall be taken by yeas and nays, and entered upon the journal; and no law shall be pass,d, in either House, without the conctirrence of a miiajority of all the members elected thereto. S$. 1$. Any member of either House shall, have die right to protest againist any act, or resotution thereof. and such protest, and the reasons therefor, shali, without alterationi, commliiti- eat, or delay, be entered upon the journaul. Sec. 11. All vacanies which may happen in either House shall be filled by election, as shall be directed by law. SEC. 12. Senators and Representatives, shall, in all cases, except treasonl, felony, or breach ofthe pCeace be privileged flem arrest during tim session of the General Assembly, and ial going to and returning from the same, and for any speech, or debate, inl either Houses thley shalt neon be questioned elsewhere. Sr~. 13. Tche proceedings of both Houses shall be pu blic, except ilu cases which, itn the opinion -of twoth irds of tahse present, require secresy. 807 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, MATARCH 5. shall be exercised b-h the General Assembly, except as Asseiv,bly in January next after an election for any of provided for int this constitution, and in the election of the officers aforesaid, the returns of such election United States S,nators; and in these cases the vote shall be made to the Secretary of State, and opened, shall be taken "viva voce." and the result declared by the Governor in such SEc. 28. The General Assembly shall have no manner as may be provided by law. power to pass retio active laws, or laws impairing SEC, 5. The supremrne executive power of this the obligation of contracts; but inay, by general laws, State shall be vested in the Governor. authorize courts to canry into effect, upon such terms SEC. 6. He nmay require information in writing as shall be just and equitable, the manifest intention fronm the officers in the executive department, Upoit of parties, and officers, by curing omissions, defects, any subject relating to the duties of their respective and errors, in instriuments and proceedingr., arisilig offices; and shall see that the laws are faithfully out of their want of conformity with the laws of this executed. State. Seac. 7. He shall communicate, at every session, SEC. 29. No extra compensation shall be made to by i message, to the General Assembly, the condition any officer, public agent, or contractor, after the ser- of the State, and recoiumeld such measures as he vite shall have been rendered, or the contract entered shall deem expedient. into; nor, shall aiiy money be paid, or any claimn, Sac. 8. He may, on extraordinary occasions, orwthe subject iiiatter of which shall not have been pro vene the General Assembly by proclamation, and vided for by pre.existing law, unless such compen- shall state to both Houses, when assembled, the pursation, or claimr, be allowed by two-thirds of the pose for which they have been convened. members in each branch of the General Asserubly. Sec. 9. Iii case of disagreement between the two SEC. 30. No nIew county shall contain less than Hiotises in respect to the time f adjoiirnuinent, heshall four hundred square miles of territory, nor, shall have power to adjourn the General Assembly to such any county be reduced below that atmount; and all time as lie may think proper, but not beyond the laws creating new counties, changing county lines, regular meetings thereof or removing county seats, shall, before taking effect, SF:c. 10. He shall be commander-in-liief of the be submitted to the electors of the several counties military and naval forces of the State, except when to be affected thereby, at the next general election they shall be called into the service of the United after the passage thereof, and be adopted by a ma- States. ority of all the electors voting at such election, in SEc. 11. Hle shall have power, after conviction, to, each of said counties; but any county now or hereaf- grant reprieves, commutations, and pardons, for all ter containing one hundred thousand inhabitants, crimnes and offences except treasonii aid cases of imtmay be divided, whenever a majority'of the voters peachmerit, upon such conditions as he may think residing in each of the proposed divisions, shall ap- proper, subject, however, to such regulati(ns as to prove of the law passed for that purpose; but, no the manner of applying for pardons, as may be pretown or city within the same, shall be divided, nor, scribed by law. Upon convictions for treason, hb shall either of the divisions contain less than twenty may suspend the execution of the sentence, and rethousand inhabitants. port the case to the General Assembly at its next SEac. 31. The members and officers of the General meeting when the General Assembly shall either parAssembly shall receive a fixed compensation, to be don, commnute the sentence, direct its cxteution, or prescribed by law, and no other allowance or perqui- grant a further reprieve. He shall cmmuniulicate t~ sites, either in the payment of postage or otherwise; the General As.semibly, at every regular session, each their compensation shall not be chlanged to take effect case of reprieve, commutation or pardon granted!; during their term of office. stating the arname and crime of the convict, the sen Sac. 32. The General Assembly shall grant no di- tence, its date, and the date of the comamutatiovn, parvorce, nor, exercise any judicial power, not herein don, or reprieve. with his reasons therefor. expressly conferred. SEc. 12. In case of hie death, impeachment, resig EXECUTIVE. nation, removal, or other disabitity of the Governor, SEC. 1, The Executive Department shall consist the powers and duties of the office for thile residue co of a Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of the term, or until he shall be acquitted, or the disahiliState, Auditor, Treasurer, and an Attorney General, ty removed, shall devolve upoa the Lieutenant Gorwho shall be chosen by the Electors of the State on eruor the second Tuesday of October, and at the place of Sac. 13. There shall be a seal of the State, which voting for members of the General Assembly. shall be kept by the Governor and used by him official SEC. 2. The Governor, Lieutenant Governor Sec- ly, and shall be called'Tihe Great Seal of the State oaf retary of State, Treasurer, and Attorney General, Ohio" shall hold their offices for two years, and the Audi- S:ec. 14. All grants and commissions shall be issued tor for four years. Their terms of office shall corn- in the name, and by the authority of the State of Ohio, rence on the second Monday of January next after sealed with the Great Seal, signed by the Governor, their election, and continue until their successors are and eounitersigned by the Secretary of State. elected and qualified. SFc. 15. No member of Congress, or otler person S),c. 3. The return.3 of every election for the offi- holding office iunder the authority of this State, or ic(.-'i named in the foregoing section, shall be sealed the United States, shall execute the office of Governor, l,< and transmitted to the seat of Government by the except as herein provided. re.t- lriling officers, directed to the Peesident of the Sac. 16. The Lieutenant Governor shall be Press St sate, who, during the first week of the session, dent of the Senate, but shall vote only when the Senshall open and publish them, and declare the result ate is equally divided; and in case of his absence or imr in the presence of a majority of the members of each peachmenit, or when he shall exercise the office of GovHolluse of the General Assembly. The person having erlor, the Senate shall choose a Presideut pro leapaxe. the highest number of votes shall be declared duly Sac. 17. If the Lieutenant Governor, while executelected; but if any two or more shall be highest, and iig the office of GovernUr, shall be impeached, disepa equal in votes, for the same office, one of them shall ed, resign, ordie, or otherwise become incapable of perbe chosen by the joint vote of both Houses. forming the duties of the office, the President of thi Sac. 4. Should there be no session of the General Senate shall act as Governor until the vacancy ks rilead, 808 shall be exercised b-,T the General Assemblv, except as provided for irt this Constitution, and in thi'election of Uriited States S,,na,tors; and in these cases the vote shall be taken'viva, voce." SEC. 28. The General Assembly sh 11 have no power to pass retio active laws, or laws impairing i,he obligation of contracts; but in,,-.y, bv general laws, ,authorize courts to carit into effect', upon such terms a,.4 shall be just and equitable, the manifest intention of parties, and ofecers-, by curing omissions, defects, and errorz-, in instriiniedts and proceedir,,,.q, arisiii,, out of their want of conformity with the laws of tb'i's State SEC.'29. No extra compensation qb,-ill be made to ay oflicer', public agent, or contractor, after the service shall have been Tendered, or the contract entered into; nor, shall any money be paid., or any claii-n, t,be sub.ect matter of which shall not have been pro vided o(r by,:pre-existing laiv, unless such compenr,ation, or claim, be allowed by two-thirds of - the members in each branch of tbe'General Asserxibly-. SEC. 30. No new county shall contain less than four hundred sqi-iare miles of territory, nor, shall any county be reduced below that anoint; and all laws creatin, new counties, changiii- county lines, or removiii,, county seats, sl-iall, bef(,re ttkkinl, effect, be submitted to the electors of the several unties to be RffClCted thereby, at the next general el.ection after I-.be passa,e thereof, and be adopted by a maority of all the' electors voting at such elec, tion, in ,eac o f said counties; but aiiv couiitv now or here-,ifter containing one hundred thousand inhabitants, tniay be divided, whenever a majority'of the vo,,ers is DS, -ip-residin-, in each of the proposed div' io shall prove of the law passed for that purpose; but, iio towii or city within the same, shall be dvided, nor, shall either of the, divisions contain less than twenty thousand inhabitants. SEC. 31. The members and ofl-icers of the General Assembly shall receive a fixed compensation, to be prescricl by law, and no other.11 _,aiice or sites, eitlier'in the payment of postage or ()tJererwqiusel,; their coi-npelasatio-D shall -not be cliadged to take effect during tl-icir term of office. SEC. 3'-). The General Assembly shall grant no divorce, Dor, exercise any judicial power, not herein expressly conferred. 01110 CONVENTION DEBATES -W,D oESDAY, MARCH 5. e e jurisdiction with the supreme court, and such appellate jurisdiction, as may be provided by law. SEC. 7. There shall be established in each county a probate court which shall be a court of record, open at all times and holden by one Judge elected by -the votes , of the county, who shall hold his office for the term of fr three years, and shall receive such compensation either s payable out of the county Treasury, or by fees, or both, as shall be provided by law. - SEC. 8. The Probate Court shall have jurisdictlon t in probate and teslamentary matters, the appointment of administrators and guardians, the settlement of the accounts of executors, administrators and guardians, and such jurisdiction in habeas corpius, the issuing of marriage licenses, and for the sale of land by executors, ; administrators and guardians, and such other juris diction in any county or counties, as may be provided * by law. Sac. 9. A competent number ofjusticesofthe pea shall be elected by the electors in each township inll . the several counties. Their term of office shall be three years, and their powers and duties siell be rega lted by law. SEC. 10. All judges, other than those provided for l in this Constitution, shall be elected by the electors of the judicial district for which they may be created, but not for a longer term of office than five years. SEC. 11. Tile Judges of the Supreme Court shall, immediately after the first election under this Consti tutioaC, be classified by lot; so that one shall hold for the terni of one year, one for two years, one for three years, one for four years, and one for five years; and at all subsequent elections the term of each of said Judges shall be for five years. SSESc 12. The Judges of the Courts of Common Plees shall, while in office, reside in the district for which they are elected; and their term of office shall be for five years. SrEC. 13. In case the office of any Judge shall be comte vacant before the expiration of the regular term for which he waas elected, the vacancy shall be filled by appointment by the Governor, until a successor is elected and qualified, and such successors shall be elected for an entire term, at thle first annual election that occurs more than thirty days after the vacancy shall have happened. SEC. 14. Tlhej Judges of the Supreme Court and of the Court of Common Pleas shall at stated times, re ceive for their services such compensation as mav be provided by law, Aswhich shall not be diminishea or increased dluring their term of office, but they shall receive no fees or perquisites, nor hold any other of fice of profit or trust under the authority of this State, or the pUnited States. All votes for either of them for anv elective office, except a judicial office under the authority of this State, given by the General As semnbly, or the people, shall be void. SEC. 15. The General Assembly may increase or dimninish the number of the Judges of the Supreme Court; the number of districts of the Court of Com mon Pleas; the number of Judge s in any district change the districts or the subdivisions thereof,, or establish other courts, whenever two-third., of the members elected to each house shall coacur therein but no such change, addition, or diminution shall vacate the office of any Judge. S~:c. 16. There shall be elected in each county, byr the electors thereof, one Clerk of the Court of Com mon Pleas, who shall hold his office f or the term of three years, and until his successor shall b-e elected and qualified. He shall, by- virtue of his of-ice, be OClerk of all other courts of record held therein; but the General Assembly may provide by law for the election of a Clerk with a like term of office, for each or any or the disability removed; and if the President of the Senate, from ally of the above causes, shall be render ed incapable of performing the duties paertainiing to tihe office of Governor, tlhe same shall devolve upon the Speaker of the House of Re-presentatives. Sl.. 18,. Should the office of Auditor, Treasurer Secretary, or Attorney General becomre. vacant for any of the causes specified ini the twelftl section of this article, the Governor shall fill the vacancy until tihe disability is removed, or a successor is elected and qualifietb. Every such va cancy sl all b e filled b y e lection al the first g eneral electiona that occurs mre than thirty days after it happens, and the person chosen shall hold the office for the; full term fixed in the second section of this article. SEC. 19. The offif,,ers mentioned in this article, shall at stated times rece-ive for their services a compensation to be es'ablished by law, which shall neither be increased nor dimiiniished, during the period for which they shall have been elected. SEc 20. Tile officers of the executive department. and of the public State institutions. shall at least five days preceding each regular session of the General Assenmbly, severally report to the Governor, who shall transmnit such reports with his message, to the General A nbly., JUDICIARY. SEC. 1. The judicial power of the State shall be vested in a Suprertie Court, in District Courts, Courts of Common Pleas, Courts of Probate, Justices of the Peace. and in such other Courts iiiferior to the Supremne Court, in one or more counsties, as the General Assembly may fromt time to time establish. Si.C. 2. Tlhe Supreme Court shall consist of five Judges, a majority of whom shall be necessary to form a quorum, or to p)rooounce a decision. It shall have original jurisdictionii iii quo warranto, manadamus, habeas corpus, and procedenldo, and such appellate juris.diction as may be provided by law. It shall hold at l eas t one terdm, in e ach year, at the seat of governmierit, alldt such otlher termiis, at the seat of government or elsewhere, as may be provided by law. The Judges | of tihe Sulprem~ne Court shall be elected by the electors of the State at large. Ssc. 3. The State shall be, divided into nine commoni pleas districts, of which the county of Hamilton shall constitLite Ol,, of compact territory and bounded by county liies, aind( each of said districts consisting of three or more counties, shall be subdivided into three parts of compact territory, bounded by county liies, and as nearly equial in population as practicable, in each of which oine Judge of the court of common pleas for said district, and residiig therein, shall be elected by the electors of said subdivision. Courts of common pleas shall be held by one or more of these Judges, in every county in the district, as often as may be provided by law, andi snore than one court or session thereof may be held at the same timse, in eacli district. ,SEC. 4. Trie jurisdiction of the courts of common pleas aud of' the Judges thlereof, shall be fixed by law. Szc. 5. District courts shall be conposed of the Judges of the court of cotnm,ion pleas of the respective districts, and one of the Judges of the supreme court, m any three of whom shall be it quorum, and shall be held in each county thereii, at Ileast once in each year; but If it shall be found inexpedient to hol! such court annually in each county of any district, the General As- 1 sembly may, for such district, provide that said court 1 shall be hold at least three atnnual sessions therein, in 1 no less than three )places; provided, that the General Assembly mnay by law authorize the Judges of each district to fix the times of holding the courts therein. Sa. 6. The district court shall have like original ( I i s e e v t c p 11 t s c SO'd OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAy, MARcH 5. at the rate of six per cent. per annum. The said sinking fund shall consist of the net annual incomne of the pub liec works and stocks owned by the State, of any other funds or resources that are or may be provided by laws and of such further sum, to be raised by taxation, as may be required for the purposes aforesaid. Szc. 8. The Auditor of State, Secretary of State, and Attorney General, are hereby created a board of commissioners, to be styled "the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund." SEzc. 9. Tile Commissioners of the Sinking Fund shall, immediately preceding each regular session of the General Assembly, make an estimate of the proba ble amount of tile fund provided for in the seventh see tion of this article, from all sources except from taxa tion, and report the same, together with all their proceedings relative to said fund and the public debt. to the Governor, who shall transmit the same, with his regular message, to the General Assembly; and the General Assembly shall make all necessary provision f o r raising and disbursing said sinking fund, in pursu ance of the provisions of this article. SEC. 10. It shall be the duty of the said Commissioners faithfully to apply said fund together with all moneys that may be by the General Assembly appropriated to that object, to the payment of the interest as i t becomes due, and the redemption of the priicipal of the public debt of the State, excepting only the school and trust funds held by the State. SEC. 11. The said Comni.ssioners shall semi-annually make a full and detailed report of their proceeditigs to the Governor, who shall immediately cause the same to be published, and shall also communicate the same to the General Assembly, forthwith, if it be in session, and if not, then, at its first session, after such report shall be made. SiSc. 12. So long as this State shall have public works which require superintendence, there shall be a Board of Public Works, to consist of three members who shall be elected by the people, at the first general election, after the adoption of this Constitution; one for the term of one year; one for the term of tw years, and otne for the term of three years; and one member of said Board shall be e lected an nu ally t hereafter, who shall hold his office for three years. SEc. 13. The powers and duties of said Board of Public Works, and its several members, and their compensation, shall be such as now are or may beproscribed by law. other of the Courts of Record, and may authorize the Judge of the Probate Court to perform the duties ot -Clerk for his Court, under such regulations as may be directed by law. Clerks of Courts shall be remove abl e for such cause, and in su ch manner, as shall be prescribed by law. SEarc. 17. jaudges may b e remove d from office b concurr ent resolu tion of b oth Houses of the Gerler a Assemb ly, if two-third s of the memb ers e lected to each House concur therein; but no such removal shall be ma de excep t upo n compla int, t he substance of which shall be entered on the journal, nor until the party Charged shall have had notice thereof, and an opportunity to be heard. SEc. 18. The several Judges o f t he Supre me Court, of th e Common Pleas, and of such other Courts as ma y b e created, shall respectively have and exercise suc h pow er an d jurisdiction; at chambers, or other wiste, as may be directed by law. SEc. 19. The style of all process shall be "sThe State of O hio." All prosecuti ons shall be carried on in the nam e an d by the authority of the State of Ohio, and all indictments shall conclude "against the peace aS digni ty of the State of Ohio.-" PUBLIC DEBT AND PUBLIC WORKS. SEc. 1. The State ma y co nt r act debts to supply mcsC al d eficit s or failures in r evenues, or to meet ex penses: no t otherwi se prov id ed for but the aggregate amount of such debts, direct and contingent, whether contracted by virtu e of one or more acts of the Gen eral Assembly, or at different periods of time, shall never exceed seven hundred and fiftv thousand dol lars, and the money arising from the creation of such debts shall be applied to the purpose for which it was obtained, or to repay the debts so contracted, and to no other purpose whatever. SFEC. 2. In addition to the above limited power the State may contract debts to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, defend the State in war, or to redeem the present outstanding indebtedness of the State, but the money arising from the contracting of such debts shall be applied to the purpose for which it was raised, or to repay such debts, and to no other purpose whatever; and all debts incurred to redeem the present outstanding indebtedness of the State, shall be so contracted as to be payable by the sinking fund hereinafter provided for as the same shall accumulate. SE.. J. Except the debts above specified in sections one and two of this article, no debt whatever shall hereafter be created by or on behalf of the State. Sac. 4. The credit of the State shall no in any manner be given, or loaned to or in aid of any individual, association or corporation whatever, nor shall the State ever hereafter become a joint owner or stockholder in any company or association, in this State or elsewhere, formed for any purpose whatever. SEC. 5. The State shall never assume the debts of any county, ci y, town, or township, or of any corporation whatever, unless such debt shall have been created to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, or defend the State in war. SEc. 6. The General Assembly shall never authorize any county, city,town or township, by vote of its Citizens, or otherwise, to become a stockholder in any Joint stock company, corporation or association~whatever, or to raise money for or loan its credit to; or in aid of any such company,- corporation or association. $xa. T, The faith of the State being pledged -for the payment of its public debt, ill order to provide therefor, there shall ie created a sinking fund, which shall be sufficient to pay the accruing interest on such debt, and annually to redluce the principal thereof by a sum not less than one hundred thousand dollars, incereased yearly and each anad every year, by compounld interest CORPORATIONS. SEc. 1. The General Assembly shall provide by law for the election of such county and township ofcers as may be necessary. SEc. 2. County officers shall be elected on the second Tuesday of October, until otherwise directed by law, by the qualified electors of each county, in such mainner, and for such term, not exceeding threeyears, as may be provided by law. SEc. 3. No person shall be eligible to the office of Sheriff, or County Treasurer, for miore than four yearas in any period of six years. SEC. 4. Township officers shall be elected on tih first Monday of April annually, by the qualified electors of their respective townships, and shall hold their offices for one year from the Monday next sueceeding their election, and until their successors are qualified. SEc. 5. No money shall be drawn from any county or township treasury, except by authority of law. SEc. 6. Justices of the peace and c(,unty and township officers may be removed in such manner, and for such cause, as shall be prescribed by law. i a c 6 I a s i 810 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, MARCH 5. in each twentieth year thereafter, the question "Shalh 1n there be a Convention to revise, alter, or amend the re Constitution?" shall be submitted to the electors of the - State, and in case a majority of all the electors voting e at such election shall decide in favor of a Convention, the General Assembly, at its next session, shall provide , by law for the electioni of delegates, and theassembling sm of such Convention, as is provided in the preceding e section; but no amendment of this Constitution,agrped . upon by any Convention assembled in pursuance of t this article, shall take effect until the same shall have le been submitted to the electors of the State, and adopted e by a majority of thosevoting thereon. On m)tion of Mr. CHAMBERS, the report was laid ,s on the table and ordered to be printed. l Report Number Two, of the committee on Appor tionmnent, was read a third time. The question then being on the passage of the d port: Mr. HENDERSON cffered for adoption the follow ing resolution: g Resolved, That the report under consideration be committed to the committee that reported it, with in structions to amend the same, by inserting the word "white," after the word "whole,;' in the second line of the first section. . The quiestion being upon the resolution to re-corm1 mit with instructions: , Mr. HENDERSON. I have made this motion, Mr. President, because, though a motion to amend in this o respect, was made when this report was under con. sideration in the committee on apportionment, I thought the fact had escaped the attention ef gentle men; and that the motion did not receive that notice e which its importance deserves. I trust, therefore, the i convention will review the course which it has taken, i and listen with indulgence to a few reasons, which I shall give, why the proposed amendment ought to be i made. tGentlemen will better understand the bearing of the amendment, if I read the section to which I propose it shall be made. If amended, it will read as folf lows: "Sec. 1. The apportionment of this State shall bh made every ten years after the year 1851, in the fol lowing manner:-The whole white population of the eState, as ascertained every ten years by the federal census, or such other mode as the Legislature may i direct, shall forever Le divided by the number "one hehundred," and the quotient shall be the ratio of repre. sentation in the House of Representatives, for ten ; years next ensuing from such apportionment." My proposition, then, is simply this, that as the ba s. is of representation in the General Assembly, we shall not take the entire pop)ulation of the State, but simply the white population. It may be said that this suggestion comes in, like the proposition for an appropriation, in the General Assembly, to drain the Black Swamnp-"at the elev enth hour." I admit, Mr. President, that there is something similar ic the two cases. This amendment proposes, if not to drain the Black Swamp, to drain something equally black from this report, and I trust that, late as it makes its appearance, it may not be be treated so summarily as the celebrated enterprise to which I have alluded. It will. perhaps, be remembered that, when this re port was before the convention, I demanded the yeas and nays upon this section; but as it was then under the operation of the previous question, I was not per mitrted to state the reasons for my action and opinion I desire, therefore, to do so now. It must, on all hands, be admitted, Mr. President, that the provision as it stands in the Report, is an ii JURISPRUDrNCE. 'Sc. 1. The G eneral A ssembly, at its first sessio after the adoption of this Constitution, shall provid for the appointmient of three Commissioners, and pr e scribe their tenure of office, compensation, and tl mo de of filling vacancies in said com mission. SEc. 2. The said commissioners shall revise. reform simplify an d abridge the prac tice, p leadings, f orm and pro ceedings ofthe courts or of t erecord of t his Stata and, as far as practicable and expedient, shall pro vide for t he abolition of distinct forms of action a law, now in use, and for the administ ration of justic by a uniform mode of proceedings without referenc to any distinction between law and equity. SEC. 3. The proceedings of the commissioner shall, from time to time, be reported to the Genera Assembly, and be subject to the action of that body ELECTIVE FRANCHISE. SEc. 1. Every white male citizen of the Unite( lgates, of the age of twenty one years, who shal have been a resident of the State one year precedin~ the election, and of the county, township or ward i which he resides, such time as may be provided b3 law, shall have the qualifications of an elector, ant be entitled to vote at all elections SEC. 2. All elections shall be by ballot. SEC. 3. Electors, during their attendance at elec tions, and in going to and returinng therefrom, shal be privileged from arrest in all cases, except treason felony, and breach of the peace. - SEO. 4. The General Assembly shall have power t~ exclude from the privilege of voting, or of being eli gible to office, any person convicted of bribery, per jury, or other infamous crime. SrEC. 5. No person in the military, naval or marine zervice of the United States shall, by being stationed in any garrison or military or naval station within the State, be considered a resident of this State. SEC. 6. No idiot or insane person shall be entitled to the privilege of an elector. AMENDMENTS~ SEc. 1. Either branch of the General Assembly may propose amendments to this Constitution, and l' the same shall be agreed to by three-fifths of the members elected to each House, such proposed amendments shall be entered on the journals, with the yeas and nays, and shall be published in at least one newspa. pe'r, in each county of the State where a newspaper is published, for six months preceding the next election for Senators and Representatives, at which time the same shall be submitted to the electors for their approval or rejection, and if a majority of the electors voting at su(ch election, shall adopt such amendments, the same shall become a part of the Constitution. When more than one amen~dment shall be submitted at the same time, they shall be so submitted as to enable the electors to vote on each amendment sepa rately. SEc. 2. Whenever two-thirds of the members elected to each branch of the General Assembly shall think it necessary to call a Convention to revise, amend, or change this Constitution, they shall recommend to the electors to vote, at the next election for members to the General Assembly, for or against a Convention, and if a majority of all the electors votitlsg at said electio~n, shall lhave voted for a Convention, the General Assemboly shall, at their next session,- provide by law, for calling the samle. Thle Convention shald consistof as manly members as the House of Representatives, who shald be chosen in the same manner, and shall meet within three msonthls after their election, for the purpose aforesaid. SEC. 3. At the general election to be held in the year one thousand eight hundred and seventy-one, and 811 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —WEDNESDAY, MARc[a 5. novation upon the previous rule that has existed in therefore, form an integral portion of the basis of repthe State; arid that nothing of the kind is contained resentation in a sintl,e member of the confederation. in the constitution now in force. In that the entire In such a proposition, there is too manifest a want of population is not embraced in the enumneration. Tha logical sequence betwNeeon the predicate and the concensus, for representalive distribution, includes only clusion, notto be apparent. Besides, the constit"white male inhabitants above twenty-one years of timn of the United States was forlned rising of sixty age." Such, indeed, is the express language of thile years ao; and such has since been the progress of constitution. So far as the proposed change is a ques- constitutional reform that there are doubtless more tion between the entire white population, ald the than one of the prorisiorls which it conltains, that, if number of adult white males,it is of no consequence, now submitted, would not he accepted witliout essenfor it is well known to those who are acquainted with tial mortification, Who believes that if it was to be the subject, that there is a great uniformity of pro- provided for again, the President and Vice President portion, by which, the one being known a close ap- wouldbeelectedthrough the interposition of electoproximation may be made to the otlihei. This pro- ral colleges, or that it would be provide d that secia portion may be stated at aboutone to six in tlis State. tors of the United States would be elcted by tie I do not, then, object to embracing the entire white General Assembly and not by the peopl e? Gentlepopulation in the enumeratioir for legislative appor- nmen adunit the weakness of their cause, when they tioimnent. It, indeed, has its advantages, as it enables endeavor to strengthen it by an appeal to an instru, us to avail ourselves of the national census, which is meat which is ackiowledged to )be defective. somethiing gained on the score of economv, and the Again, IMr. President, it is urged as argument in faccuracy of which is as reliable. as though procured vor of the poviiens of this report. i this respect by the authorities of the State. that we adroit aliens-foseineis-xvlho have jis It does not appear to nme, Mr. President, that this reached our State fromn the shores of Europe, to form Innovation was contemplatedbv any one, at the time, part and parcel of our basis of representation. I when this convention was called. Anid all the admit it, sir; but I insist that the two cases are not changes I heard suggested I mnust be permitted to parallel The European isone of our own race and Say that I heard nooiie suggest that it was necessary color. He is connected w ith us ill blood, and simior even proper that, the basisof representation in our lar to us in the species and degree of civilization in Legislative Assembly should be altered. I never whichhe has beenii nurtured. A few years anlld every heard that the rule in operation, was deemed unjust, feature that distinguished bctween us is worn away; or that it wrought wrong or injury to any individual and the common lineaiienots of the comnion ancestry or class in the State. Such, thei, being the case, I become perceptible and distinct. He becomes one of hope the convention will not suffer itself to pass upon us il anainer, in feeling, ini interest, and in sympawhat I deem this great, and, to speak in to speak inii thiy, while the negro after miiaiiy generations is still the mil(dest terms, unnecessary innovation, silently, regarded as an alien and a foreignuer. or without a full expression of views and opinions. Again an argument is attempted to be drawn from There are, Mr. President, several considerations the fact that this Convention has made the women which induce me to wish that the colored population and children of the State a part of the basis of repreof this State should not form an element in the ba- sei-tatiori; while it has not conferred upon them the gis of its representation. I would ask, who are the riglit of suffrage. It is hard w hen gentlenien are drivblacks? "They are nriot people of our own race or col- el to juslifv one palpable inconsistency by attermp, or; they are negi oes —Africans, and the descendants in-g to plead another. But women and children are, of Africans." Such were the termsi used in relation in truth, part of ourselves-" our better dpart"-and to them by a distinguished Statesman and Senator of are, in fact, represented in the persons of their hue the United States, (Mr. CLA;) on a recent occasion, bands and fathers; and for these reasons, there can one wlho.e exalted character anid eminent abilities be no possible evit in their enumeration. Theirnurnhave rendered him an object of respect and admiration to bers, teeoo, being a p opertion to the whole, that is ver all, and especially to gentlemen on the 4opposite side uniforni, the result cannott be iii any degree uneqial. of the chamber, who look upon himn as the very eam- But such is not the case with the colorect population. bodirnent of their political principles. By hill, thie We have denied theml a representation iii tote; and blacks are conceived to be mnere outsiders, with little their numbers as I shall show hereafter, are not'unior no knowledge of, or interest in our institutions of form throughout the State; and we iliay as well talk government, or sympathy with the political welfare any other accidental element to swell our numbers, of the country. Such being the case, it must be ap- as to takle them. parent to all that they cannot, with any propriety, be We are told, again, that while tire eonvict is exclnmade a part of the basis of our representation. ded from the elective frarncihise, he is still einumerated, Again, I ask, Mr. President, who are they? They and that the same rule should apply in this case. I are not voters. We have here already determined do not, Mr. President, so understaid it. The disfranthat they shall not enjoy tihe privilege of the elective ciriserrients of the law are to be construed strictly, and franchise. We have determined that they shall in extend no farther than is defined by express deelarano sense of the word be represented in our legisla- tion. Thie right to be enumnerated, tiherelore, is not tive assembly. We exclude them from the polls, and taken away by the disfranchisement, but still remains does not that fact itself, I ask gentlemen, furnish a to be enjoyed. Besides, the convict may be pardoned, strong reason why they should form no part of the and restored to tile rights of an elector; and whatever basis of our representation? I, sir, can see no rea his loss of privilege may be, it does trot descend to Ihis son why they should form apart and parcel of those children, for we do not admit the doctrine of the curwho are supposed to be represented, when represent- ruption of blood, and his rights reassert themselves in ation, in fact, is totally and constantly denied. Arid the persons of his offspring. But it is not so with the I can imagine no principle on which they can ever blacks; and so long as our proposed Constitution may be presumed to be represented, unless upon the remain unchanged, they will be excluded from the principleof usurpatier and power. elective franchise, not only in their own persons, but But it is said that the colored population of the in those of their descendants. country are recognized and represented by the Con- Another argument that I have heard urged is this, stitution of the United States; and that they should, that as the blacks in the State occupy, in their several 812 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-'-WEi)NESD v MARChI 5. ought to be abated, should, if possible. be crushed in the bud; and in this instance, I trust thle Conventioll will coincide with me in this rule of action. But it mnay'be said, as the negroes will be distributed somelling like equally between the two great political parties in southern Ohio, no harm can result from their enumeration. This, I conceive, Mr. Presi(lent, is begging the whole question. Who can predict what will be the political complexion of southern Ohio in ten, twenty, or forty years? It should be remembered that we are deliberating for, or should be deliberating for posterity; and that our action should be based on principle, and iiot a miserabl( expediency; aced that our labors here should be so framed as to stand "the test of huirail scrutiny, of talents, and of time." Mr. President, I have not often trespassed upon the time of this body, but I felt constrained to do so, onll this occasion. I was unable to vote for this Report, until I had an opportunity to deliver my sentiments; and have the aiiendment I propose, engrafted upon it. In conclusion, I thank the Convention for the attention that it has bestowed upon my remarks. The question being on the adoption of the resolution, Mr. LARWILL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 31, nays 57, as follows: YiAs-BMesses. Bennett, l',ikelsderfer, B,owvn of Carroll, Cahilli, Cook. Far,, Fri:rs. (il iii, G'g, G (,es!ecl, Hard, of!en(lerson1, Hilli h -ok of G dalla, Ho,tti,a,ill. H ilihlhevilie, i Kin kwoiod, Lar-il, Larzwil, 1 ley, Miheili 1, M; Corluick, Qligcley. ioarvvwero, S'oil of Hatiise,,'cTtt or At,lai ee,S ls, itanItoll, S~ti(l,..mr, Thlomtsssonl tf;{a, k, W~ill ante and Wi'so,. —31. NAYs —lessr-s. A,'(1biee, Ba:!'ei if t onltmnery, B arlett of Preble, B,tcs, Bair, B1 w of Athc!s, Case of Lic. in, (hanbCers Claniev, Clat;l,'o illns. D)rsea, Ewart. ESvia,r, Fl) en-e, Gray, G,,helit, lulwia,:e, Greml oft R.iss, Hapilieon, alal alle,, H! l:s. H,It, Hi HHlla,ter. J.ies, King, Lawrelwee, Lmiidon. Maio.o, Mam, 3Millis 1I C ioil. 1\at.i, Or;oll, ()tis, Pattei'so,, Pll,Pe,-kiis,Rde i, l e, iilI of Hmgeiglaate, Sprnithp o Wafo tei. SSte; et, $iills, St tlwel, S ick,:ey. S!rt1,, S wift,',,d, Vai c, of IB;ltier W'arle,, Way,s Woodltairy,T tvortliiiv_,tonl unal P./es.dmtl —.~,7. So the res olution was a(ree(,dI to. Mr. LAWRRENCE umoved that the Conventioni resolve itself into a comniittee of thei whole; which was agr-eed to. Mr. McCLOuI) ill the Chair. Th e order of the (lay being Report No. 2, of the committee on the Schedule, the satIIe was taken up and read. fMr. LARW1LL moved to amened the section by str ikiu, out the words "Fourth day of July," atid inaertigll in lieu thereof the words "sixth day of Septehnmb er," as the day upon which the people of the State were to meet ill pliimliry assemblies, and vote ulpo(nt the a-dopt-oii of the Constitution. The questio ll thenl being upon t 19e amendment, Mor. M ITCHELL demanded a division of the question. The question then being on striking out "the fourth day of J,ulv." Mr. LARVWILL. The reasoti why I am in favor of givinig this length of tinie is that the people may have a full opportunity to determine upon the merits and demerits of the instrument we are about to present for ieir adoption. The general expression of the public sentiment as it appears in the newspapers of the day, seems to be that as this Convention has been a oRlesnt time inl sessi on, and it has taken a very considerable period for its to determine what shall be the provisions of the itew Const:tution, they should also have ample opportunity to ascertain what it contains and make up their milids as to the effect of its provisions. It seems to me that for this purpose the time fixed itn the amendmedent is not too long. Bes ides I look upon the Fot th of July as an unfortunat e se localities, a space which would otherwise be occupied by white inhabitants, they should, on the principle of oompensation, bi enumnerated in such localities, for representuati!,nr,ises.n This argument, it seems to me, p rov es toin I I t.i o. The re may be other obstructions t o the ie,ihs of t he white pop ulation, which if removed, their bers would be g reater, and their representation more full. I need but instance the St. Mary's Reservoir, embracing an area of about 16,000 acr es, in M e rcer and Auglaize co unties, which, if draiBted, and broughrt under' cultivation, their population would be muci largi r,aid thie ir'represent.Ltioe a proportionately increased. D)eaes it, therefore, follow, that this Reservoir should be embraced in the basis of replresentation? To such absurdities a re the advocates of negro enumeration driven, in attempting to sustain their position. Again, M r. President, the edh e ct of the provis ion will be very u nequal, as i s shown by t he l ate census of the State. Thlere are, in forty-three counties of southern Ohio, a negro population of 20,840, while in forty-four counties of northern Ohio, there are but 2,696, showing an increase in tile south of 18,144. This species of population ha.s increased during the last ten years more than eight thousand throughout the State, and if no measures are taken to prevent it, we may anticipate that this disproportion between the north and the south will continue -and increase, and, in its political bearings, become still more sectional and( offensive. The causes of this tendency of the blacks to increase, in our southern counties, are numerous. Southern Ohio is more contiguous to the slave holdinlg States; and as the blacks are not very enterprising, they have a disposition to locate as near to the States from which thev came as circumstances will permit. The climate is, also, more congenial to their constitution; and the population of that section having emigrated, principally, fromn the States to the So3utlh, the blacks prefer to reside among them. Though treated with more respect, in the more northern counties, they alledge that they are treated with more kindness, in the more southern; and that they prefer to live among their friend,,. But there are other causes for their dispr-oportionate increase, existing without, as well as within, the State. The policy of the States of Kentuckv and Virginia is that of driving their emancipated slaves into the free States; and to their immiiigration into our.S, we, by the repeal of the black laws- and by the nonaction of this Convention, as is knowni to gentlemen. have placed no barrier. So long then, as we remain in this condition, this evil wil grow and increase, until at length, it will imperatively demand the attention and the action of the people, and the authorities of the State. Mr. President, I do hope that the amendment which I halve proposed, will be adopted. It will in no man - ner, militate against the general provision>, or the details of the Report; but oil the contrary, will cut off an excrescence, which has been attached to it; and make the report itself, to many, much more unlexceptioniable. It may be said that this is a smnall rmatter, that the whole black popullation of the State exceeds but a fear thousands, the ratio required for one member in the House of Representatives. Thlat mnay be true, sir; and if it be sio sm1all a matter, I trust that it will be conceded. But I mlust acknowvledge that I have taken a somewhat different view of this subject. The principle we have adopted is wrong, ald its p61itic'al evils will, fit every returning cenlsus, develo(pe themselves more fully, and become more formidable. With mne, it has always been a rule, that, whlatever I 813 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDAY, MARCH 5. lection. It is a holiday The minds of the people striking out the words "fourth day of July" and in will not be prepared by the occasion for the serious sertilig in lieu thereof the words "twenty-fourth day business which such an act demands at their hands. of June." Mr. MANON. I agree that the Fourth of July is Mr. MANON demanded a division. not exactly the proper time, but instead of a later, I The question then being first on striking out. should prefer an earlier day. I would suggest the Mr. MANON demanded the yeas, and nays, which twenty-first of June. were ordered and resulted yeas 68, nays 18, as follows: Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. I have no objection * ICAl-Messrs. Barl,ee. Barnet of Mo,ittroity. Bate s, Ben. to the amendment of the gentleman fr om Wa yne, but nett, Blirkensde'.fer, Browin of Carto 1, Caiilil. Case of Lirk i,,-, Cliamn,eis, Chaney. Coilings, Cook, Ctirry, Dorsey, Ewart, 'he will recollect that in thirty days fromnt the day up- Ewing, Flireere Forl'e', Gilett, Gray, Greee of Diarte, on which the new Constitution is voted on, the re- Greei of Reass, Greggr, GroesRerk. Hanii'toi,, Hawkil,s, Hen turns of the election are to be opened, and if the Con- derson, H:tch,ock of Geania, Ho'mes. Holt, Hut)phreville, stitution shall have beeni adopted by the people. pro- t HtterJoeKi Kirkwood. Jarsl Lawiene ar wi y,L, ecb Ladey, Me, Masoni, Mitchell. Me-'Cloud, McCor clamation shall be made by the Governor to that ef- w Ik a L, eNlr Lidys Oti, Perks.QMlin Mee li,S od HMtCr . iclk, Naohi Norris, Oti.- Per-k.iil~ Ieeiit-eli'i,Srott of Har fect, and the Constitution is to go into operation, and rison, Smith of Hibhlatd, Smiith of Wa reti, 1ai bery, Stanton, the first election under it on the tenth day of Octo-,tethis. t'lwelf, Soickm-.y. Strub'e, lift. Taylor, Warren, ber. This will leave but four or five days betwee n illanis Wodl,r.t, Worthn,toi and PieFideit. NAYs-McSSrs. ArM hbold. Barnet of P elite. Brown ii of Atl ei's, the day on which the proclamation is made and the Farr, Hard, Hootiia, London. Morris, Patte soil, Sawyer,Scott day of election, a very short time for the people of of A,ilaizt. Selters, Stit,Ier. Thoinpson of Stark, TownLstIieud, the State to become acquainted with the fact whether Vatce of Bittlel-, Way and Wi!soil-18. it has been adopted or not. So the motion to strike out was agreed to. I have no objection to the fourth of July. It is a The question then being cn filling the blank with leisure day, and may be as well used for that purpose, the words "twenty.fourth day of June." as any other, and if gentlemen see fit to prefer it, I Mr. LAWRENCE suggested the words first Mon-, have no objection. Or the matter may be postponed day of August. to another year, and let the ratification by the people Mr. MANON, suggested the words: "second Satur take place on the second Tuesday of October. day of June. Mr. LARW1LL asked and obtained leave to amend Mr. HUJMPHREVILLE suggested the "second his motion by substituting the seventh day of June Monday of June." forthe sixth day of September Mr. MORRIS suggested the words, "third Friday of The question then being oln striking out the fourth June." day of July, the same was disagreed to; yeas 28, ilays The question first being on filling tile blank with the 40. wordrs, "first Monday of August." Mr. EWART moved to amend the section by stri- Mr. MITCHELL. I should prefer the fourth day kiigouttheword "thirty"aand inserting in its place of July. I look uponii it as important that this Conthe word "tweniity,"-as the number of days after the stittition be voted on at as early a period as possible, election, before the returns shall be oppened and proc- and this seems to be the only leisure day ill what is with lamation made by the Governor; which was agreed to. farmers a hurrying season of the year. Mr. MITCHELL m oved that the committee riseand Mr. LOUDON. It seems to me, Mr. President r, port; which was agreed to. that this is the most appropriate day that could be se The committee then rose, and reported back the lected for putting this great question to the people of resolution of the committee, to strike out the word Ohio. It is aday of general Jubilee not only over the "thirty," and insert the word "twenty in lieu thereof. whole State, but over the %hole of this great country, The question then being on the amendment made by and there are more men who calculate to spend this the committee, the same was agreed to. day in the service of their country than ally day in tlse The question then being on the engrossment of the year. As has been remarked, from the first of June to report: the first of August is a very busy time for the far Mr. WOOBDURY demanded the previous ques- mers of the State, and there is no day within the tion, which was seconded. period except the fourth of July, when they feel as if 'I he question then being, shall the main question be thev are at leisure. now put. Mr. FLORENCE. I wouldsuggest alater day,say Mr. BLICKENSDERFER demanded the yeas and the first of August or about that time. I would select nays which were ordered, and resulted yeas32, nays a day in the latter part of the wet'k as farmers are 52; ss follows: more willing to leave their wort; than at the beginning, YEAs-Messrs. Bariett of Pretle, B'owvn of Athens, Cahii, and more people will come out onl this occasion. Gitlett, Greete of Defiarne, Groesbeck, Hard, H,ootitian, Hut.- Mr. HENDERSON. I do not want the fourth day ptlireville, Hiie,Ki,.t, Lititev, Mit(-hell,,Oti,-, Patt eriso n, Pe,rk ereville Sawyer. So K oi,f Harri,soit. ellS,otti f Patiel, l k o f July turned into a day of political contention; and if lers. Stelb!ii. Stickey. Strutle, Swift. Tliompson of Stark. there is any danger of that I had rather some other day T'ow,sheid. Valnce of Butler. Way, Wilsoil, Woodlbury adi of the three hundred and sixty-five should be chosen. Presideit —i, pNAYt-Mes2,. Arlilod Battiee Hanoi of Mon otiorY, Ihe question then being on filling the blank with NA.ys-Messrs. Archllo'd, Barllee, Barnet of Mon.'o,,tery, Bates, Beiiett, Bli keosdetl i, Blrowi ot Carroll Ca.e of L ek- the words "third Friday of June," the same was agreed iug, Chainteis, Cha,ev, Clark, Coltitngs, Cook, Citrry, Di-sey, to. Ewart, EwinrF, Floreitt e, Fo I ee. G, ay. G ee, of R,os. G, er,,g, Mr. LARSH moved to further amend the Report by Harlan. Hawvkis, HelnIe son, Hitchc ock of Geaiia, Holt, Huit, adding to the end thereof the lowig: Iadding to the end thereof the tollowing Jones, Kirkwoot. Lar-,h Lawretce, Larwvill Lees it Litfoto.. Manoti, Morris, M aChtd, Cotrmili(k, Nasi, Not ris.'Qi leR, R Th at should a jajority of the electors of Stitith of Hi ghland, Sldth of Watret, Stantry, Sta nton. Sit:- the State, voting at said election, vote against the well, Stidger, Swan, Tailor, Warren aid Worthing.'tot —52. adoption of this Constitution, that fact shall immedi So the demand for the previous question was not ately be certified to the Governor by the Secretary of sustained. State, who shall thereupon issue his proclamation to The question then being on the amendment pro- the electors of the State, requiring them to vote at posed by the committee of the whole to wit: Strike out the election to be held on the second Tuesday of Oe-the word "thirty before the word "days" and insert in tober next for or against the adoption of Articles lieu thereof the word "twenty," it was agreed to. of this Constitution, to be incorporated, as an amend Mr. NASH moved to further amend the Report by meat to the existing Constitution. 814. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEI ESoAY, MARCH 5. The individual members of this body, after i hey go from here, can do as they please in regard to their ap proval or disapproval of it; but I hope they wil do nothing here having a tendency to discredit what has been done. Mr. RANNEY. Gentlemen need not be trying to provide against the contingency of the rejection of this constitution by the people. I tell them that this constitution is not going to be rejected. Do they suppose that this instrument which does a great act of justice by returning to the people the power they have over their officers, will be defeated by them? Do they believe that a constitution that limits and suppresses the power of ruilning into debt and piling upon the people loads of taxation, will be voted down by them? Do they suppose that a constitution that provides for equal taxation all over the State, and that banks shall be taxed as the property of individ uals is going to be rejected? The gentlemen need not lay this flattering unction to their souls. The gentleliiiaii from Ross may throw himself before the advan. cilig car of public judgment, and be crushed, but I defy him to make any question before the people of the State by which this constitution shall be decided against. He need not be calculating to defeat this hcoistitutioii on ay of his hair splitting notions in regard to corporations, and I tell gentlemen that if there is any part of this instrument that will go down. hard with me, it is the very part they are so anxious to preserve- the judiciary syst em. Mr. SAWYER moved the p rev ious question. MlIhe question then be ing, sha ll the main question, be n o w put?" it was agree d to. T'he question then being on agreeing to Mr., LARASH' amendment. Mr. LOUDO-N demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 24, nays 60, as fola lows:' YF.-As-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross, litchlcock of Geaiiga, Larsh, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell and Worthing ton-24. NAYs —Messrs. Bennett, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance. Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamil ton, Hard, Hawkins, Heniderson, Holmes, lIolt, Hootnian, Hulnphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, Morris, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Perkinis, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidg er, Struble, swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Towns lhend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Wood bury and President-60. So the resoiutions were disagreed to. The question then being on ordering Report num ber two, of the committee on the Schedule, to be en grossed; it was agreed to. And on motion ordered to be read a third time on to-morrow. Mr. MANON mloved that the convention resolve it. self into Committeo of thle Whole, on the orders of tho day. Which w s agreed to. Mr. STrICKNEY in the chair. On motion of Mr. MITCHiELL, the resolutions of the select committee on the subject of printing, were taken up and rend. Mr. CHAMBERS moved to amend the second resow tution, by adding at the end (in reference to the num-~ ber of Berman papers in any county, is which theeon Resolved, That should a majority of the electors of the State voting on said question at said October election, vote in favor of said amendment; that fact shall be certified to the General Assem-ibly at its next session, and thereupon said Article shall be a par t of the C onstitution of this State, and all provisions contrarv the reto, shall b e r escinded ard the General Assemlily shall take immedi ate m easures to conform existing laws the reto, and carry th e same into effect. Mr. LARSH. So far as I am acquainted, Mr. President, the people of the district t hat I represent had but one object in voting for the calling of this Conventioi, and that object was the reorganization of the Judiciary department. I am inclined sir; to think that there are things in this Constitution that will induc e th em to vo te again st its adop tion, and I desire, if possible, if such should be the case, that they may have an opportulnityto re-organize the m judiciary separate and apart f rom the rest of the instrument. Th e l aw under which this Convention was called gave it the power to alter, amend or change thie Constitution, and we are abou t to offe r to the people for their adoption an instrument totally different from t he other in all it s provisions, and I want, in case they shall reject it, to retain the power to change the Sudlcary system, and then I believe the people of th e State can liv e u nder the old Constitution for the next fifty year s a s well a s they have done for the last fiftv. I do not feel that we have consulted the wishes ef the people in the tii se chan ges whic h we are attempting to make, in the organic law of Sta te. I do not believe that they desi r aed then, and I dont expect they will sustain them; aCd I do not want that the oir desire for the reor ganization iwf the ju dici ar y shall sust ain the other obnoxious provisions of this instrument. Th e qu estion then be ing on th e adoption of the resolutions. Mr. GREEN of Ross, moved to amend the first resolution, by adding the words "and the article providinig for future amendments to the Constitution." Mr. LARSH. I accept the amendment. Mr. GREEN. I have been more anxious to secure to the p eople of the St ate the ben efit of the article relating to f uture amendmrents tha n any other. We have, Mr. President, been in session five months, at a large expense to the State, and a great sacrifice to individual members, and if this Constitution shall be rejected, I am unwilling to subject the people to the expense and trouble of calling another Convention. The article providing for future amendments gives a remedy for such defects in the Constitution as time and experience shall show to be necessary. I have often said that, in my opinion, we have gone flirther than the people have desired; but I still Lope that a spirit of compromise will prevail, by which members on the two sides, can come ulpon common ground in regard to some of its provisions. While 1 will adhere to the great principles of right and justice, no one will go further than myself to encourage a spirit of comtpromiise. I should look upon it as a great inisfortune if this constitution should be rejected, and I desire, if possible that it shall be so framed, as not to be so far objectionable that a large portion of the State wiltlbe forced to vote against it; but in v iew of the possibility of such a result, 1 hlope that at least that portion of the resolution regarding future amendmlents, will be adopted. Mr. LARWILL. I shall vote against the resolu-1 tions, and I hope gentlemen will not attempt to palm1 off upon us any more movements of this kind. I trust that we are not going to show ouo bears of the1 rejection of this constitution by any such course.1 t t t t 815 816 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNI,SDAY, MARCH 5. stitutionr shall be published) the words, "not exceeding The gentleman from Richland, (Mr. KIRKWOOD,) two in any one county." thinks that the publishers of newspapers ought to Mr. REEMELIN. I hope the gentleman from publish this constitution as a matter of news, and he Muskliingum will withdraw his motion, after he hears would be ready to discontinue a paper whose editor thle reasons that I shall give for so doing. There is did not give it an insertion. Now sir, there are a probably no county in the State in wh'clh there are great many reasons urged for the discontinuance of more than two German newspapers, except the county newspapers. There was once an old lady who stop of Hamilton peal her paper because there was not a chapter of tfihe There is, in this city one paper exclusively Catholic, Bible ill it every week. and another exclusively Metiodist, and the great mass The gentleman, (Mr. KIrnKawooD,) also finds fault of the people belonging to those coin munions tak.' no with the manner in which we propose to pay for the other paper,aind thait ne is takeiin very extenrisively among services performed. The proposition is to pay out of them, but very little by aiv others. Then thitre are any moneys of the convention not otherwise appro the commercial, business, and political papers of the priated. - That is thie (-)rily way that we can do it, and city, which also have their class of readers; and if it is by so doing we are placing the publishers of the pa the olject of publication to reach all the people, in this pers on the same footing in regard to payment with city at least the publication will have to be made in ourselves. more than two. Mr. LOUDON. Can any gentleman inform us how Mr. LEECH. I hope, Mr. Chairman, that this much this publication will cost? amendment will not be agreed to; for the reason, that Mr. LAWRENCE. About five thousand dollars. there is a large portion of the Germant population of Mr. LEECH. It' the getitlemian from Brown, (Mr the Statr', who cannot read English. If it is important LOUDON,) will tell me exaotly how niatty thousand erns that they become acquainited with the provisions of the this constitution will contain, I will tell hint ex constitution, it is proper that the means of information actly how much it will cost to publish the instrument be placed within their reach. Mr. CHAMBERS asked, and obtained leave to with Mr. LARSH. I observe that the General Assembly draw his ametidrient. has taken this matter in hands, anid that a bill has been| Mr. EWART moved to amend the fourth resolution-, ititroduced in one of thie liouses, in regard to this pub- by striking out the word "each," and inserting the lication. I amn iticlined to thitiki that we had better words "thie first," in lieu thereof, so that it would leave the matter to that body, especially as there may read, "seventy-five cents per thousand ems for the first be a doubt whether we have the power to do any thing inserticil." in regard to it. Mr. LEECH, thought that the proposition of tire Mr. MANON. If the General Assembly will at- gentleman from Washington, (Mr. EWART,) was man tend to its owin business, and pass the properappropria- ifestly unfair, and unjust. tion bills to pay us off, we will attend to our own busi- Mir. EW ART. It is the same price paid to the pa ness, so far as this constitution is concernied. pers for publishing the laws of the State. They are Mr. MITCHELL. I have heard this cry of no pow- published onily ontce, and I see no necessity for pub er in this body, util I am tired of it. Why sir, what lishing the constitution more than once is this convention. Does it not represent the sovereign I Mr. HAWKINS thought otne publication enough. power of the State? Does it not represent the majesty He did not want so it.any coplies in the papers he re of the people. Sir we, are the highest body iii power ceived of any that exists or can exist in thie State. Mr. NASH moved that the comrrmittee rise and re.Jr. NASH. The gentleman had better bring in port. an appropriation bill, and let us raise our own funds. Which was agreed to. Mr. ORTON. I have noticed the provisions of the The committee rose and the Chairman report bill in the General Assembly, anrid observe that they ed, that the committee had had under consideration the do not conflict with the resolutions offered. report of the select comtimittee on Printing, and had in Mr. KIRKWOOD. It strikes me that this is the structed him to report the same back without amend peculiar province of the General Assembly. How are inent we to pay for this printing if we cannot appropriate The question then being on ordering the report to money. be engrossed. Mr. ORTON. The publishers of papers may do it Mr. LAWRENCE moved the previous question. on their own risk, and the state will doubtless. make The question tihen being "shall thle main question be the paymelit. now put." Mr. KIRKWOOD. I should inot think that the Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas and nays, which publisher of a public paper was doing his duty, if he were ordered, and resulted, yeas 38, nays 45, as foldid not put this constitution in his paper, as a matter lows: of general interest. YrY -Messrs. Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey,Forbes, Mr. ORTON. From what I know of the opinions Gillet,,, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hamilton, of the people of the State, and of the memnbers of this Hard, Hitchcock of G-o.atga, Holmes, Holt, Hootmrnan, convention, I ani satisfied that it is looked upon as a Hunter, Jones, Kiiin L,awrence, Larwill, Mitchell, matter of the utmost importance that this constitu- Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quig-tioii be fully spread before the people. T'his must be ley, Riddle, Sawyer, Sellers, Swift, Taylor, Thompdone through the public papers. It is well known son of Stark, Vance of Butler, Wilson, Woodbury, that the gzreater nimnber of the people take otily one and President-38. paper, and that the paper of their county, a"d if we i NAYs —Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montconcltde to make the publication in a patnphlet gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickform, we can hardly imagine the number of copies ensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, that would be sufficient for the purpose. I Cahill, Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Curry, The next question is, whether the printers who Ewing, Ewart, Florence, Graham, Green of Ross, perforin this labor for the public, are to be paid Hawkins, Henderson, Hunt, Kirkwood, Larsh, Leech, flr it or not. I take it that if we are honorable Lidey, Manon, Mason, Morris, McCloud, Nash, menl, we will most assuredly pay for whatever is ne- Reemelin, Scott of Harrisoti, Scott of Auglaize, Smith cessary to be done. i of Highland, Smith of iWarren, Stanbery, Stanton OII() CONVENTION DEBATES-WEDNESDIsY, MARCI 5. "and all business proceedings, bonds, papers, and re cords of the charter aforesaid." It was agreed to. Mr. EWART moved to further amend the report, by inserting after the word "office," in section 3, the following words, "onl the first day of September l1851," which was agreed to. Mr. MANON moved to further amend the r-eport, by inserting in section one, line one, after the word "for," the word "Govenor." Mr. HAWKINS deland(led the yeas and nays, weiclh were ordered, and resulted, yeas 39, nays 41, as follows:. Stick1ney, Struble, Swan, To-wns~lend, Warren, Way, [nd Worthington-45. So the denland for the previous question was not sustained. OLI motion of Mr. HITCIICOCK of Geauga, the oauventivn took a recess. AFTERNOON SESSION. The question being on ordering the Report to be engrossed, Mr. MANON moved that the Report be laid on the table and ordered to be printed. Mr. BARNETT of Preble, demanded a division. The question then b Ci tg first on ordering theReport to be laid oi the table; it was agreed to. Theii question then being on order i ng the Report to be pari n ted. Mr. GRAY moved N a call of the Convention, which being ordered, Messrs. Archbold, Case of Hockilng, Caste ot' Lick ing, Chanmfbers, Carry, Cut le, Farrt, Cte Graham, Harlat, Glitchcnck of Cuyahoga, Holt, Kennon Larish o an, Lodohll, Mason, Mitchell, orehead, MCor ick, Nasli, Otis, Patterson, Perkisls, Reerrelin, Sawrer, Smith of Wya rid ot, Stanbery, St ebbins, Stidger, Thompsonl of S helby and Vac e o f C h e l ad Hki ampaign were found absen-t. On miotion of M r. MANON, all further proceedings u nd er the call were dispensed wit4h. Tol question then being on ordering the Report of the select committee to be printed; it was agreed to. On motior of Mr. BENNETT, the Convention restived itself icto a coansnittee of the whole, Mr. MANoe in the chair. The commi t tee rose and the Chairman' reported t ha t the comiinitte e had had Linder consideration Report nunber one of tih e corsnmi ittee on the Schedule and had i-twstructed hiin to oe)ort the sawre back with sundry amendmen t s. The question being on the first amendment proposed by the committee of the whole, to wit: In section 2 strike out after the words "eighteen hundred and fifty oale." it was agree d to. Mr. STRUBLE moved to reconsider the vote just aen. It was agreed to. The question then being on the second amendment, to wit: in section 3 near the end of the same after the word "officer," insert t he ll words "at the tine of the adoption of this constitution." It was dishgr eed to. The quest ioit thenl being on the third amendment, to wit: In sectioni 4, where these words oCCU-, "shall hold 1his office until the first Moriday of January 1853, strike outtlhe( word "first," and irnsert ini lieu thereof, the. word "second." It was agreed to. The que.tioi-i then being or, the fourth amendment, to wit: In section ore, lite one, insert tle wordl"aily," before the word "offieer." It was agrreed to. The question then being on the fifth amnedndmelt, to wit: In section 9), strike ouit the words'"the electi.iou," and insert in lieu thereof, the words "and befre the same is filled as." It was agreed to. The question then being on the sixtlh amenlment, to wit: In section 13, in the middle of the same after the word "peniiding," insert the w,ords'-and reimainiIfag." It was agrreed to. The questi(, n then bseing on the seventh amtenldment. to wit: In sectionl 15, nlear the enld of the samne, after thie words "records thereof," insert the following, TE rAps-Messrs. Andrews,Archbold, Barbee, Barnett of Preble Bitates,Blickensdertfcr, l,rown of hhens, Brown of Car. r oll, Chambers, ('olings, Cool, Farn, Florence, Gray, Green of Ross. Horton, Hunter, I.awrence, Larwill, Leech, Mianon, Mitchell, McCloud, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Sellers,Siiiith of Highland. Stilwell, Struble, Swan, Thompson of Stark, Warren, Wilson and Woodbury —9 NAYs-Messrs Barnet of Montgomery, Bennett. ('ahill, Case ofl Licking, Chaney, (&lark,Eving, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance. Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, tiawliins Henderso,, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, HoLot, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, L arsh, Loudon, Morris, McCormick, Nash, N-orris, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Warrern, Stantoii, Stebbins, Stickney,'I'aylor. Townshend, Vance Of Butler, Way and Presideit-41. So the amendmient was disagreed to. Mr. GREENE of Defiance, moved to further amend the report, by inserting after the word "works," in thle first line of section 6, the words "Register and Receiver of Land Office," which was agreed to. Mr. MANON mroved to further amend the report, by adding as an additional section the following: "The first session of the General Assembly under this Constitution, shall commence on the first Monday of Novemnber eighteen hlunidred and fiftv one. Mr. NASH demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 39, nays 43, as follows: YE-s —Messrs. A ndrewt s, Archbol(l, Barnet of M ontgomery, Barnlett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Athenis, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Clarli, Collings, Cool. Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Graham, Gr-ay, Greene of Dlefiance, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Lnarsh, McCormick, Nash, Patter. son, Ranney, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, Ttylor,'I honipson of Starlik, Vance of Butler, Wa,ren, Wav, ~lioodbury and Worthington —39. N.,~ —Messrs. Blicliensderfer, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Dorsey, Florence, Florbes, Gillett, (Green of loss, G noesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Hlawkinrs, Hendlerson,, Hootman, Horton, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Lounloi, Manon, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Otis, Perkins, Quigley, leemelin, Riddle, Sellers, Smith of Warren, etebbins, Stickney, ftruble, Swilt, Townshend, Wilson an d l'resident-43. So the amendment w as disa greed t o. Mr. NASH moved t o fu rt her am end t he report, by Teyetoitnben onteffhaodot po bysrknotseto6,wihwsdsgedt adding as an additional section the following: "The first session of the General Assembly under this Constitution, shlall convene on the second Moen, day of November 1851." which was disag,reed to. Mr. MITCHELL moved to further amend the roport by striking out section 6, whilih was disagreed to. Mr. STANTON moved to further amend the report in section 5, by striking out the words "second Tuesday of October 1851," and insertingf_ in lieu thereof, the words -,first Monday of April IS52. Mr. WOODBURY myioved the previous question. The question then beini,'sl"la-1 the main question' be now put,"it was agreed to. The'UestioIi then bei on the amendment of Mr. STA~qq, ON Mr. ARCHBOLD demanded a div-;sion. Tie question then being first on strikiing out the words -'second Tuesday of October 1 e'51." si7 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, MAnCH 6. Monday of January 1853, and biennial sessions therm after. Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize, moved to lay the Re lutioin on the table, which was agreed to Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga, moved to take lp tip resolution just laid on the table. Mr. LIDEY move(Il that the Convention adjourn, which was disagreed to. The question then being on taking up the resolttion. Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 38, nays 46, as follows: YEAS. Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Br,nett of Pre1le, Bales, B}iiiett, B own of Athens, B'own ot Cal roll Ciali,ers, Coilinigs, Cook, Ewar-t, Florence, G ilett, WGraham1, G.-av, G,'eeu of Ross, Hawkiii.', Hentderso,,, H',ticl{-,,k of G!aiiga.Hohines Horton, Kirkwood,Lawrenice, Ma,on, Miorris, Na-h, Otis, teetiuelin, Scott of Harrisoni. Smiith of Highlaud, Smithli of Warren, Stantoii, Stilwell, Swift, Taylor,Towiistiet d, and Wood Lury —?8. NAYs-Messrs. B'irkensderfer, Cahill, Case of L eking. Chaney, C ark, Dorsev, Ewing, Farr, F,rbes, Greene of Defiancee G,'egg, G:'oest)eck,'Hamiiiltoi., Hard,Holt, Hootmani. Hunt, JotiellLarst), Larwil!, Leerb, Lidei, Loudonl. Maino,, Mitchell, MeCloijd, M,-C,)rmick Norris. Patterson. Pe.k, Perkins, Qiigievy Ranney, Riddle, San yer, Scott of Atinlaize, Sel'ers, Stelbhinst S'ickiey Stlle, Swa, Tlii1i-.)soli ot Stark, Vance of Butle;, Warren, Wav, Wilson, Vmt orthiiton aoMd PresideHOt —4M So the motion was disagreed to. And then on motion of Mr. HOOTMAN, the Convention adjourned. Mr. LARSHdemanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 29, nays 55, as fol lows: Yzes-Messrs. Barbee, Bennett, Blickenisderfer, Brown o Carroll, Case of Licking Cook, Dorsey, Florence, Gillett Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilion, Hawkins, Hen derson, Hitchlcock of Geauga, Hor-ton,Hunter, Johnson,Larsh Lawrence, Mason, Nash. Smith of Warren, Stanton, Swan Swift, Taylor and Worthington-.9. NAYs — essrs. Andrews, Archbold, Bar,et of Montgomery Bal nett of Prehle, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Chambers, Cha ney,Clark, Colli;,gs, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Holmes, Holt, Hootman Hunt, Jones. King, Kirk wood, Larwill, Leech, L,A'!don, Manon, Mitchell, iMloris,McCormick, Norris, Otis,'itter. son, reck, Quigley. Ranney, Reemlini, Riddle,Sr Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize ld, Melers, Smith of Highlaind, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble,'Thompson of Stark, Tlownshend, Vance of Butle, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and Presl-dent- 55. So the motion to strike out was disagreed to. The questio t en o then being on ordering the report to be engrossed. Mr. RANNEY demanded a division. Trhequestion then being first ordering sections o, 2, and 3, to be engrossed; it w as ag reed to. The queson orrietion then being o ordering section four to be engrossed. Mr. RANNEY d emanded the yeas and oays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 44, nays 43, as fol lows: YE,s —M,Iessrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of C arroll, Cas e of Licking, Chambers,Chaney, Cook, Dorsey, Fwart on, ingFlorenc e, G illett, Graham, Gree of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock oa Geauga, Hunt, Hunter, Jolnson, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Loudon, Manion, Mason, Morris, McCormick, Smi,h of Warre n, Stil well, Struble,;wan, Swilt, Taylor, Townshe. d, Vanc e of Butler, Woodbury and President-44. NAYs-.Messrs. Barbe e, Cahill,Clark, Collings,Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Gro esbeck, Henderson Holmes, Holt, Hootman. Horton, Jones, Lawrence, Larwill Leech ir d ih, L idey. Mitchell ash oi, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perki ks, Quigley, N tansiey, eemelin, Riddle. Sawyer,Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smii'h of Wighland, Stanton, Stebiwlls, Stickney, Thompson of St ark, Warren, Way, Wil so n and VWorthinigto —-43. So the fourth section was ordered to be engrossed. The question then being on the engrossment of sec tions five and s sx; it was agreed to. The question then being o n ordering section seven to be e ngrossed. Mr. RANNTEY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 46, nays 38, as fol Ys As- Messrs. B arnet of Mont gome ry, Barnett of Preble. Bates, Bennett, tBhlckensdeerfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of C arr oll, Case of Lickinon, t hamtbers, Coilings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Gray, Green of Ross, G roe sbeck, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Kirliwood,Larsh, iMlanon, Mason,, Morris, Mculoud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkinis, Riddle, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell Swan, Swift, Taylor, Town"shend and President-46. 'NAy8s-Messrs, Cahill, Chaiiey,Clark, Ewing, Fart, Forbes, Greene of D)etiance, Gregg, Hard, tiawlkiins, tHenderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Jones. Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Loudot-, Mitchell, Norris, Patterson, Quigley, aianney, lReemelin, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers,';tebbizns, Stickney, Thompson of Starli. Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthlilgton —38. So the seventh section was ordered to be engrossed. The question thetn being on ordering the remlainling sections of the report to be engrossed; it was agreed to; and on motion the report was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. E WART submitted the following: ResolvedC, That the committee on1 levision be instructed to amend the article on the Legislative De partmnent,so that the members of the General Assembly fiprst to be elected,shall hold for one year,and that there be held a session of the General Assembly on the first THiURSDAY, March 6, 1851. 9 O'CL,OCK, A. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Prayer by Rev. Mr. SHEPERDSO-. Mr. ARCHBOLD from a majority of the select committee, to which was committed the Report on Finance and Taxation, reported the same back with the following amendments: 1ST AMENDMENT. Strike out section 2, of the Report, and insert in lieunthereof the following: SEC. 2. Uniform laws shall be passed upon the: subject of Taxation, enmbracing all property according to its true value in money; provided that burying grounds, public school houses, and houses used exclusively for public worship, and property held by the public or open to public use without any chargetherefor, and a limited amount of personal property not exceeding two hundred dollars to any one individual, may be exempt from taxation by general law, but the value of all property so exempt shall annually be published as may be directed by law, and all such exemptions shall be subject to modification, ak teration or repeal. 2,ND AMIENDM-ENT. Strike out section 3, of the Report, and insert MIX lieu thereof the following: SEC. 3. The Geneial Assembly shall provide by law for taxing the property, capital, money, credits and effects of all bankers and banks, now or hereafter existing in t hi s State, so that the same shall bear. a burthen of taxation equal to that imposed upon the same amount of property, capital, money, credits and effects belonging to individuals. On motion, the Report and amendments were laid on the table and ordered to be printed. Mr. REEMELIN, from the minority of the Selece Committee on Finance and Taxation, submitted tt following: sis ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-FIRST DAY. OHIO CONVENTION D)EBATTES-TURsDAy, MARCII 6. "Substitute the following forthe second amendment The question then being on the passage of the proposed by the majority of the Select Committee on Report; Finance and Taxation: Mr. MANOR moved, that the Report be recom. The General Assembly shall provide by law for mitted to the committee that reported it, which was taxing all banks or banking companies, now or here- agreed to. after in existance, for all purposes where located on Mr. RANNEY sutbmitted the following: the average amount of their notes and bills discoun- Resolved, That the committee on the chedule, to ted, or monies or credits in any manner or form se- which has been recommitted Report numberone, of cured or invested, and for which there shall have been the committee on that subject, be instructed to strike at anly time, reserved or received, or expected to be out the seventh section. received, any interest, profit or other consideration On motion of Mr. SAWYER, the resolution was whatever, with no deduction therefrom except for referred to the committee onthe Schedule. bona fide deposits, for which not less than five per Mr. SItLWELL submitted the following:. cent per annum interest, shall have been alloweeL' Resolved, That the select committee on the Sched 0. REEMELIN, ule, be requested to add to the end of section 7, of H. H. GREGG, the Report of the committee oni that subject, the foL On motion of Mr. REEMELIN, the amendment lowing: "but neither of said courts shall be contin was laid on the table and ordered to be printed. ued alter the first day of April, 1853, and no siit Mr. CASE of Licking, submitted the folUowing as shall be commenced in either of said courts after t a substitute for section 2, of the majority Report of the first day of October, 1852. select committee on Finance and Taxation: On motion of Mr. HOLMES, the Resolution Was "SEC. 2. All property in this State, including in- referred to the select committee on the Schedule. vestments in all kind(s of stocks, whether owned by Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize, submitted the following: individual or corporations, now or hereafter existing, Resolved, That theselectcommittee on the Schedule, shall be taxed upon its value, which shall be ascer- be requested to provide for the election the present tained in such manner as may be provided by law, year, of the following officers, to wit: Governor, Lieu making taxation equal and uniform; provided that tenant Governor, Auditor, Treasurer, Secretary of the General Assembly shall exempt from taxation all State, Attorney General, Members of the General As property, which may be exempted by virtue of the sembly, Judges and Clerks of Courts, and members of Constitution of the United States, the property of the the Board of Public Works. State; the public property of counties, cities, towns On motion of Mr. SMITH of Warren, the reo and townships, and it may exempt from taxation, lution was referred to the select committee on the burying grounds, houses used for religious worship Schedule. and property devoted to educational, literary, scien- Mr. STICKNEY, submitted the following: tific and charitable purposes, together with an amount of personal property not exceeding in value nReolved, That the committee on Revision, be, in amount of personal property not exceeding i value $200, in the case of each individual subjec to tax- structed to change the time of voting on the Oon ~~~~~~~~ation." ~stitution, from the 3rd Friday, to the 2nd Tuesday of June, 1851. On motion of Mr. CASE of Licking, the amend- On motion of Mr. SWAN, the resolution was refer ment was laid on the table and ordered to be printed. red to the select committee on the,Schedule. Report number two, on the Schedule, was read a Mr. CASE of Licking, submitted the following: third time. Resolved, That the three hard money sections r The question being on the passage of the Report,. ored the tee ar n ecys Mr. LID EY, moved that the Report be commit- pICurrenc~y, amended in Convention, and finally voted therein., ted to a select commiuttee of three; which was disa- ug b et ly ote teri ought to be separately submitted to the voters with greed to.th gr. NeY mov~ed, that. the Rnew Constitution, so that they may become a Mr.ted to the committeemoved, that the Report be commit. part thereof, provided a majority of the voters should ted to the committee that reported it. On which motion, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas vote for sald sections. and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 38, Mr. SAWYER moved, that the resolution be refer nays 5, as follows: Ired to the committee on Banking and Ourrency. YEAs-Messrs. Cahill, Chaney, Cook, Ewing, Farr, Forbes. On which motion, Gregg, IHendlerscn, Iles, Hunt, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Mr'. CASE of Licking, demanded the yeas and Lawrence, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Patterson, nays, which were ordered and reslted-as 4 nay s Perkins, Quigley, Rtanney, Reeinelin, Riddle, Sellers, Steb- 49 as follwt 40, nays bins, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson YErs —Mes"rs. Brown of Athens, Cahlfl, Chaney, llwlr, and Presildenl'-38. F'arr, Forlts, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hender NAYS —Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, son, Holes,Holt, Hootinan, Hunt, Jones, Kinig, Kirkwoo, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Benn ett, Blickensderf-r, Brown of Larwill Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Mitchell,McC )rinick, Norris, Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chauibers, Clark Patterson. Perkins, Raiiiey, Reenielinr, Ricldie, Roll, Sawyer Coilings, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart Fiorence Gillett, Graham, S,ott of Auglaize, Sellers. -tebtins, Stickney. S$idger, Struble Gray, Greene of Defiance. Green of Ross, Groesbeck Ham- Way, Wilson and President —4o. ilton, Har(l, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hlorton, NAYs —Mers. Archbold, Baniet of Montgomery, Barn IBumphreville, Hunter, Johnso,, Larsh, Manon, Mason, Prebhle, Bates. Bennett, 3lickensdertier B'own of Carroll, Mitchell, Morehead, loiis, MNIcCloud, McCormick, Nash, of Lickina, Chambers, Ciark, Colliings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Norris, Orton, Orton, Otis, Peck, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Gillett, G'aham, Gray.Green of Ross, Hard, Hawkins, Horton, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren. Haimphreville, Hunter, Johnson, Larsh, Lawreiice, Loudo,, Stanbery, Stanton, Swift, Taylor, Towoshend, Woodbur Masoin, Morehead, Moris, McCloud. Nash, Otis, Peck, Qu!gley, and Worthington-57. Scott of Harrison, Snith of fHilhland, Smith of Warren, Stan So the motion to recommit was disagreed to. lery. Stuwali, Swaii, owift, Tarlor, Thompson of Stark The question then being on the passage of the Re- Towushesid, Warren Will-n-s, Woo'lhnry &nd wortlit' port, it was agreed to. -49, On motion, the Report was referred to the committee e tue motion was disagreed to. on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment. e The question then being on the adoption of the Report number one, on the Scheduleo was read a I Mr. LAWRElatE unwed that the resolution be,third time. M.LWEC oe htterslto em ferred to a leae ciammittee of three. 53 Sig, 820 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, MARCH 6. Mr. LARWILL moved to lay the resolution on the transpose the words "third, second and first," so that table. ti will read. "first, second and third," it was agreed Mr. CASE of Licking, demanded the yeas and navs, to. which were ordered and reullted-yeas 43, nays 52, The question then being on the third amendment, aas follows: to wit: In section three, in the last lines of the same, NAYS-Messrs. Cahill, Cham-ers, Chaney, Ewing, Farr, transpose the words "fourth, third, second and first," F Grbes, Gillett, Geete ot Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Heinder- So that it will read, "first, second, third and fourth,' s 1, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Hunlet, Kina, Kirkwood, Larwill, it was agreed to. IL ech, Lidey, Mo ehead. McCloud, McCornmick, Norris, Patter- Mr. GREEN of Ross moved that the report be re H~i, Quigiey, Railney, Reenielin,Riddie, Ro l. Sawyer, Scott of. Augiaize,Sellers, Stant ery,Stantoi., StehliLnsi, Stickney, S. ruble, committed to the standing committee on Apportion- Thotiipsoti of Stark, Way, Wilson, Woodbury aid Piesident ment, with instructions to provide in the article on YtoMs rAnrw,3. rcbod,Bre,f M t Apportionment that every county n the State, which ~5As —Messrs. Andrews, Arc!!b~old, Barbee, Ber~n.iet of Mo-may be entitled, by the fst and alifuture apportiongotnery, Barnett of Preble, Bat s, Bennett, B.ickenserfer, maybe brown of Carroll, Case ot Licking, Clark, Collings, Cook, mentssfor representation in the General Assembly rorsev, Ewar-t, F orenree, Graham, G-ay. Green of Ross, Ham- under this Constitution, to more than one Represenilton, Hard, Hawkins, Holmes, Horton, Humphrevi.le. John- tative, shall be divided ilto single districts, equal in "n, Jones, Larsh, Lawrence, Leadbetter, London, MaO, number to theRepresentatves towhich such counties Mason, Mitchell, Morris Nash Otis, Peck,?er to the Representatives to which such counties Hrrison, Smithof H ghla,(d, Smith of Warren, Stilwel. Sti.l- may be entitled during the respective decennial pegr, Swan, Swift, Taylor,Townshend, Vance of Butler, War riods within each of said districts, there shall be ren, Witliams and Worthinigton-52. elected one member to the House of Representatives. -So the mnotion to lay on the table was disagreed to. Mr. MANON demanded a division. Mr. CASE of Licking, moved the previous question. The question then being on recommitting the re The question then being, "shall ihe main question port, be now put?" Mr. HOLT moved the previous question. Mr. LARWILL, demanded the yeas and nays, The question then beitng, "shall the main question which were ordered and resulted-yeas 50, nlays 46, b)e now put." as follows: Pending which, YzAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archholl, Barnet of Montgomery, On motion of Mr. LARWILL, B ties, Bennett, Blickeiisderfer, Brovwn of Athens, Brown of The Convention took a recess. OC:roll, Case of Licking, Chambers, C.,llings, Cook, Dorsey, Eyvart Florence, Gray, Hanilton Hard, Hawkins, Horton, tlttmphreville, Hunter, Jlohnson, Lairsh, Lawren,e, London. ENOON SESION. M-lmo0l, Mason, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Otis, Perkins, 2/, o'cLocK P. M. Sawyer, Scot: of Harrisot,,Smiithti of Warren, Stanbery - Steb- The question pending bins. Stilweli, Swan, Swift, Tayl or, Tlonipson of Stark, Towns being, sall the main ques hend, Vance of Butter, Warren, Williams, Wilson and Wood- tion be now put," ls r -50. Mr. GREN, of Ross moved a call of the Conven NAYS-Moors. Barbee, Barnettof Preble, ahill,Charey,Carli, tion, which was ordered, and Cury, EwiNt, Farr, Forties, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defi- I Messrs. Bates, Blair, Case of Hocking, Case of c ce. Green of Ross, Gregg, GoesIec.k, Henderson, Holmes, i T.Ct H -It. Hootitan, Hunt, Jotes. Kion,. Kirkwttoti, Larwil, Leech, C lk, Clark, Cutler, Dorsey, Gray, Harlan, Hitch L -a..bette, Lidey, Mitchell. Morehead, McCorimick, Patterson, cock of Cuyahoga, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Ken Pe-k, Quigley. Raiiey, Reemelin, Rt(ille. Ro'l, S-ott of An- non, Loudon, Mason, Nash, Perkins, Sawver, Smith 1 tize, Sellers, Smith of Highlaid, Stickney, Stidger,f Stuble, of Wyandot. Stanbery, Taylor, Thompson of Shelby Way, Worthington and President-46.. W Vance of Champaign, Way and Woodbury, were So the demand for the previous question was sus- found absent. tained-. Mr. GREEN, of Ross, moved that the doors be The question then being on the adoption of the closed, and that the Sergeant-at Arms be despatched r:solution, cl s d'n htteSr(ai-tAm edsace -r. solution, fick-adeneteyaadafor the absentees, which was disagreed to. Mr. CASE of Licking, demanded the yeas and nays,, Mr. HORTON moved that all further proceedings which were ordered and resulted-yeas 32, nays 64,' under the call be dispensed with. V,.,follows: I Mr. STANBERY demanded the yeas and nays, yEAcs-Mes,rs Archbolld, Barnet of Montgonery, Case of which were ordered and resulted yeas 58 nays 27, as Leckin", C!liaoe Clark C ollin_is, Cook, Dorsey, Gillett, Gray,' f ll s Hard, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geaugs, Humnphrevil e, Johnson, ows L,r —t, Lawrence, London. Manon. Nash, Otis, Perkiis, Scott YEAS-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee Barnet of Moitgomeri, .,f Harrison Saitoln, Swan, Swift Taylor, Towisherd, Vance Barnett of Preble, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, of Baiiler,,VRar e;, e~illiaiis and Worthiato-r,-32 Brown of Carrull, Caill, Cihabers, Collinas, Cook. Dersey, Nvs —M-ssrs. Atidriws, Barbee, Barnett of Preble, BatesI Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of t MAi-rie t Btickci,ile-tei Bovift Bon('arbell'Defiance Greet of Bt Ross,o Gre gg. Groesheck, Hard, Hawkins, 'B,.-ne, Bickesde~hr,B-,'owii of At B~, Bowni of Ca,-roll, Dfac,Geno Citli Chanitiers, Cirrv,Ewa t, Ew no Farn, Floretce, Forbe s Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga,Holmes, Hootinan, Horton, G,.aP.am, G'eei e of Diaice, Gr(en of toss Gregg, Groes- Humphre'ille, Hutit, Hunter, Johnson Lawrence, Larwill, Gbacki, Hamilton. HenGro,Hlre, roes' Lidey l,oudon, Mitchell, MNlorehead, Morris, Otis, Patterson, beck~, Hamilton. Heoderson, Holmies, Holt, Hootmati, HortotPek igy,Rne, ide ot ctofHrson, itilit. Hunier, Jones-, Kiig, Kiikwooi, Laiwill Leech, Lead- Peck, uigley, Ra ey, iddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, l-oiler, Lidey, Masotn. Mitchell Moreoa0- M orris, Me Cloud. Mc- Sellers, Stebbins, Stilwell. Swati. Swiflt, Townishend, Vane ort,nick, Norris, Patter-son, Peck, Quiglev, Ran,ey. Reemelin of;utler, Warren, Wayantl V orthington —58. R ddle, Roll, Saever, Scott O Aur,la'ze S'tlers, Smilth ot High- NAYs-Messrs. Chaney, Curry Graham, Gr een of Ross, 14td,Sumiih of Warren. S,anlery, S e,,i- s.Stickney, Sidgoer, IHamilton, Jones, King, Kirkwood Larsh, Leech, Leadbetter, St.nt,l oe Thomipsuon of Stark Way \V iison aid President —4' Manon. MoCioud, McC ormiicki, nor.is, Orton, Reemelin, - Scott of Auglaize. Smith of Highlatd, nSmith of Warren, So the resolution was disagreed to. Stanton, Stidger, Struble, Tholpson of Stark, Williams, Mr. HOLMES, on leave, from the standing commit Wilion and President tee on Apportionment, to which had been recommitted So all further proceedings under the call were d,s the report number two of the committee on that sub- pensed with. -ect, reported the same back with sundry amendments. The question then being, " shall the main question J The question being on the.first amendment pro- be now put," posed by the committee, to wit: In section three, in MrI. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which the last line of the same, transpose the words "fourth were ordered, and resulted yeas 47, nays 43, as fol and third," so that it will read "third and fourth," lows: it was agyreed to. VEAS-Messrs. Barliee. Barnett of Preble, Btickenosdcrfer. The question then being on the second amendmen t Cahill,Case of Licking, Chatiey, Ciark, COulings. Cook, Dorsey~ to wit: In section three, in the last line of the same Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeek OHIO CONVENTIOCN DEBATES-THUuSDAY, MARCH 6. Regiments, Battalions or Squadrons, shall severally appoint their staff; and Captains shall appoint their non-commissioned officers and mnsicianis. SEc. 4. The Governor shall commission all officers of the line and staff ranking as such, and shall have power to call forth the militia to execute the laws of the State, to suppress insurrection, and to repel inva si on. SEC. 5. The General Assembly shall provide, by law for the protection and safe keeping of the public arms. PUBLIC INSTITUTIO.NS. SEc. 1. Institutions for the benefit of the insane, blind, atnd deaf and dumb, shall always be fostered and supported by the State, and be subiect to such regulations as may be prescribed by the General As sembly. SEC. 2. The Directors of the Penitentiary shall be appointed or elected in such manner as the General Assembly may direct, and the Trustees of the benev olent and other State institutions, now elected by the General Assembly, and of such other State institu tions as may be hereafter created, shall be appointed by the Governor, by, and with the advice and consent of the Senate, and upon all nominations made by the Governor, the question shall be taken by the yeas and nays, and entered upon the journals of the Senate. SEC. 3. The Governor shall have power to fill all vacancies that may occur in the offices aforesaid until the next session of the General Assembly, and until a successor to his appointee shall be confirmed and qualified. On nmotion of Mr. RANNEY, the report was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.' Mr. MANON submitted the following: "Resolved, That the committee on Revision be in structed to strike out and so chalnge the 11th, 16th and 17th districts, and make four districts out of the three, by putting Muskingum one, Perry and Morgan one, Washingtonll and Athens one, leaving Fairfield and Hockinz as one district." The question then being, shall the main question be now put, it was agreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the resolution, Mr. MAiNON demanded the yeas and nays, which were order ed, and resulted, yeas 32, nays 56, as follows: YEA s —Messrs. Chambers, Chaney, Gregg, Hawki ns, Itenderson, H olt, Horton. Jones, King,Lawrence,Larwill, Leech Leadbetter, Lidy. Manon, Mitchell, Morr is, Quig ey, Reeme. lin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize,Sellers, Stilwell, Stidier, struble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Vance o f Batler, Wilson and President —32. NSY-.Messrs. Barbee, Bernet of wMom tgomery, Barnett of Preble. Bates, BeTnnett, Blicensetoerfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahiill, Case of Licking, Clark, Collings, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewvart, Ewing, Farr, Florecie, Forbes, Gillett. Graharr, Gray, Greene of Dl)fiance, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard Hitchcock of Geauga, Hotmes, Hootmanr, tiumphreville, Johnson, Larsh, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warrei Stanbery, Stanton. Stebbins, Swan, Townishend, Wat,e Wi. liams, Woodbury and Worthin-,ton-56.: So the resolution was disagreed to. Mr. KING submitted the tollowing: "iResolved, That the committee on Revision be its slrueted to report the following senatorial districts, towit: Butler and Preble,~Montgomery and Greene,Warren, Clinton and Fayette." Mr. CAHiLL- Mr. President: I shall vote against the instructions nowv proposed, and howpe lhat the Convention mray see fit to disagree to the sameo. It is true that I do not like the senatorial appojrtionlmenlt. So far a~s mny own district is concerned I should have preferred other arrangements, bult the scheme was passed un Hard, Hawkinis Holmes, Hoottman, Huinphreville, Hunt, Jolll son,, Jones, Leadtieoter,',ason, Morehead, Norris, Patterson, Peck, Qtuii,ley, Rautne, Ridd'e, Roll, S,cot of Auglaze. Sel lers, Stehbinq. Sticknev, Swan, Swift. Thomoonn of Stark, Tr)s,Shen(t,Vance of Butler, Warren,SWay,Wilson,and e resi denit-47. NS,s-Mesgsrs. Archbold, Baroner of Montgomery, Bate. W Beni net, B owiN of Atheis, B'owi of Carroll, Chaima ters, C err-y, Bwart, F oreince, Graham, G,'eeli of Ross. Hamilton. Hender son. Hitchcock of Geaui a, Hort on, Hunt er, Kine. Larst, Law retince, Larwill, Leech, Litey, LoMdoit, Mas,oti, Mitchell, Mor ris. McClotlu, M Corinick, Nash, Otis. Reeiroe'in. Scott of Ha, risoni, Smith ot Hiehlatid, S nith of Warrei, Stanlt,erv., Staitton, Stilwell, Stidger,Struble. Taylor, Willians, and Worthing ton —43. So th e dem and for the previous question was sus tained. The question then being on the passage of the re port Mr. BROWN, of Carroll demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 53, nays 42, a s follows: YeAis-Meurssrs. Archbld. Cahill, Cape of Licking, Chaney, lC ark. Cook, Dorsey. Ewing, Farr, Forbes. Grer Ye of Deti aiice-, Groesthec k. Hard,. Hawkins, Holmnes, Ho!l, Hoot my'ani,,Humpihreville, Hutint, Johnston, Jones, Kirkwood, Law rence, Larwifl, L e ech, Leadoetter, Lo(loanon, Mitchell, Norris, O toll, Patterson, Q,iigley, Raiiney, Reenmelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of AAlniaize, Sellers, Steht,ins, Sticknev, Stidder, Stru:e, Swan., Swift, t'nompsonof Stark,Towvsihend. Vance of Butler, W arren. Way, Witlson, Woo(bury and Presi(ent —.3. N,Ys-s-Messrs. Anidrews,B xrbee, Barnet of Moitontery, Bar nett of Preble. gates, Bennettt B'i(kensderfer, Broown ofa Cheos, Brown of crroi Charllt)ers, Coa fiCCgs, Curry Ewatt, Florence, Giile.tt, Grahavr, O reell of Ross,['aliiito!t Hitchcock of Geaoga, Hor ton, Haunter, King. Larsh, Lid(lev, MLano-, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McClot(l, M-Cornmick Nasty Otis, Peck, Scott of Har rsoli, S,ith of Hightand, Sith of Warren, Stand ber-, Stainton, Stilwe 1, Taylor, Wi,liams and Worthing.toi —4' So the report passed. And, on- m otion, the report was referred to the st anding committee on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment. Mr. RANNEY, from the standing committee on Revisi on, A rrangemen t and Enrollment, submi tted the follow ing report: REPORT NO. 2, OF THE COMMITTEE ON REVISION, ANGEMEN,T AND ENROLLMENT. EDUCATION. Se. 1. The principal of all funds arising from the sale or ot her dispo sition of lands or other propert gran, ted or entrusted to th i s State for educational an: religious puirposes, shall forever be preserved invio lateand undiminished, and the income arising there from shall be faithfully applied to the specific objects of the original grants or appropriations. SEC. 2. The General As-,embly shall make such poisproviion b y t axation or o therwise, as with the income arisingi frot the school trust fund, will secure a thorough- and efficient system of common schools throughout the State, but no religious or other sects shall ever have any exclusive right to or control of any part of the school funds of this State. MILITIA. SEC. 1. All white male citizens, residents of this State, being eighteen ye'ars of age, and under the age of forty-five years, shall be enrolled in the miilitia, and perform militay- duty, in such manniier, not incompat ible with the Constitution and laws of the United States, as may be prescribed by law. S~c. 2. Majors General, Brigadiers General, Colo nels, Lieutenant Colonels, Majors, Captains and Sub alterns, shall be elected by the persons subject to military duty, in their respective districts. SEC. 3. The Governor shall appoint the Adjutant General, Quartermaster General, and sulch other staff' officers as may be provided by law. Majors General, Brigadier-s Gene~ral, Colonels or Commandants of 8l' OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-TIIURSDAY, MAIRCH 6. State. Now sir, there are nmeasures of change which , are not measures of reform. There are changes which - are urged under the influence of the magic but some what indefinite term "progress," which are any thing , but progress in the right direction, and when any mar terial alteration in existing systems is proposes, it is proper to look at it, not as a mere name, bet as a thing, : and to ascertain, first if it be really demanded by a [ wholesome public sentiment, and secondly, whether in , principle it is consistent with the theory upon which the institutions of the government are founded. I say T that it is properfirst to ascertain if it be demanded by a wholesome public sedtiment, because I hold that pub lic sentiment when it spritigs spontaneously upon the t unbiased'conclusions of the people themselves, (and that is what I mean by wholesome public sentimoent,) is invariably right. The people when left to their own. T suggestions, never progress backwards, anid in all past history the instance catnnot be found where they have been detected in looking one way while they were row ing another. Well sir, what have been the indications of public * sentiment in the State of Ohio, during several years past? This subject was brought before them, (to go , no further back,) during the agitations which resulted from the action of the General Assembly, at its last apportionment. in dividing Hamilton county. I am aware that these events have been cited as evidence of a contrary tendency, butin charity to those who allude o to them (or that purpose, we are bound to believe that they are little acquainted with the facts of the case. During the whole of the stormy discussions in regard , to the violation of old Hamilton, which commenced with the breaking up of the Legislature, continued in a revolutionary assembly at the seat of government, and ended with the close of the second stormy session of the General Assembly, not one word was said in op position to the principle of single district represeata totion. Not even the members from old Hamilton it self-leaders as they always aspired to be in thle legis l at i v e ihalls —were heard to utter a word against it. They complained that its operation was unjust as ap plied to Hamilton county alone, and that tbie practice was unconstitutional under the existing or'ganic law. But while they made these claims, they always admit tad the principle to be correct, and were frequently heard to express their regret that under our existing in stitutions, it could not be put inito practical operation throughout the State. The Democracy of Ohio was then in favor of single districts. The subject thus, at that time brought before the people had the effect to arouse their attention, and probably more than any other induced them to vote in favor of calling this Convention. They felt that dis credit had been done to the State by the distractions of the Hamilton county question, and were anxious to be insured against a repetition of the scene; and this very apportionment bill, Mr. President, is the legitimate of spring of the desire of the people that a permanent ob stacle should be placed in the way of any more events of a similar character. During the canvass for the election of members to this body, the matter of single districts was frequently the subject of remarks and resolutions. There was no controversy upon it, for there was no division of senti ment; and he would have been an unpopular man in deed, who had raised his voice in favor of retaining the old system of representation or any other of a similar character. While thousands of voices were raised in favor of single districts, not one was raised against it. Like the subjects of abridging the patronage of the General Assembly by making State and all other offi cers elective, and that of judicial reform, there was among the whole people an unanimity of sentiment der the o peration om the previous question, and there was n o oppor tunity to discuss the matter. And, sir it is quite evident that everv member of this body cannot be ent ir ely suited as to the apportionmen t of the S tate. There must, where no principle is involved, be mutual concession and just compromises in order to pass any scheme at all. So far as the political complexion and partizan features of this scheme of apportionment is concerned, I think neither party can claim the advantage. I think that neither party have any just caufe of complaint. There are now remaining but two days of the session of this CoiJvention, and it is all important that we should promptly dispose of this matter. I shall vote against the motion to instruct, and hope it may not prevail. Mr. BENNETT moved the previous question. Thie question then being, "shall the main question be now put?" it was agreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the resolulion. Mr. KING demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 33, nays 54, as follows: YEASl-Messrs. Chaney, Farr, Gregg, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Hoo~ man, Hunt, Jones, King, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Alaanon, /,litchell, McCormitk, Norris, Quigley. Reemelini, Riddle, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of WVarren. Stebbins, Sticlikney, Stidger. Struble,Taylor, Thompson of Star];. Vance of Butler, Williams and Wilson-33. NAzYs-Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of t'reble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cabill, Case of Lick-ing, Chambers Clarlk, Collings, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart. Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Gray. Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hard, HitchcoclI of Geausa, Holmes, Horton, Hunmphreyile, Hunter Johnson, Larsh, Loudon, MIason -Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash. Otis, Pec;ki, Perkins. Roll, Sc,ott of Harrison, Smith of Highlan~d Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell Swift, '1 ownshend, Way, Woodbury, Worthington and President -54. - So the resolution was disagreed to. Mr. MORAY submitted the following: ",Res(lved, That the committee on Revision be instructed to provide for the division of the State into single districts for representation in both branches of the General Assembly." The question being on the adoption of the resolutiol. Mr. GRAF/. Mr. President: The resolution which I have just preset,tea, and which I hope will be allowed to pass, provides that the committee on Revision be instructed so to amend the article fixing the apportionment of the State for representative purposes, as that it shall be divided into single districts for the election of mnet,,bers to both branches of the General Assemnbly. And I hope sir, that although this subject is by no means ax new one to the geitletneni composing this Ibody, hely will, in consideration of the fact that hith. erto I have occupied little, of the time of this Convention, consent to hear with indulgence the few remarks that I shall offer, ii) which I intend merely to give the reasons which have hitherto, and will in-future control my action and dlictate my vote. It would seem to me sir, that if there are any in)('ices by which the state of the public sentiment upon any subject of public concern can be ascertained with precision and certainty, gentlemen can hardly, at this day, deny that the people of the State have during several years past given strong and coniclusive testimony of their preference for the single district system as applied to the Senate as well as to the House of represenlatives; nor can it be denied that during the canvass which resulted in the election of memlbers of this body, this was one of those measures of reform which obtained universal acanieseence, and which wax advocated alld demanded by all the political parties in the 822 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, MAIl-CH 6. that relieves this body from all embarrassment upon the Mr. SWAN from the Standing Committee on the subject. Judicial Department submitted the following: And while I have no desire to call in question the REPORT NO.2 REPORT NO. 2, motives for the great change of sentiment that has ta- oF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAL ken place in this body, since its first organization, I DEPARTMTENT'. must be allowed to allude to that change as a matter of The Standing Committee on the Judicial Depart fact. We were, when fresh from the people, nearly or ment have had under consideration the Resolution in quite unanimous in tavor of single districts, but we structing them to divide the State into Judicial Dis have progressed. [ fear that time and the people will tricts, and to subdivided such Districts for election pur both determine that the progress has been made In the poses, and, in pursuance of said Resolution, report as wrong directioa follows: Let as, sir. pursue, for a moment, the second inqul- SEc. 1. Tihe First Judicial District shall consist of ry. Is the single district principle consistent with the the county of Hamilton, which shall not be subdivided theory upon which the institutions of the government for Electioni purposes; and the Judges therein may hold are founded Our form of government is republican. separate courts, or separate sittings of the same court, fts fut:damental principle,, is the natural equality of at the sametime man. The citizens of the State are the governing par- Syc. 2. The Second Judicial District shall consist ty as welt as the party governed. The obligations of of the counties of Butler, Preole, Darke, Montgomery, all to obey are equal, and so are the rights. Every Miami, Champaign, Warren, Clinton, Greene and Clark, citizen is entitled to the same representation both in which shall be subdivided for Election purposes, as character and amount, and the nearer that representa- follows: Butler,Preble and Darke shall elect one Judge; tion is brought home to himself, and the more directly Montgomery, Miami and Champaign shall elect one he acts ins selecting his own representative, the more Judge; and Warren, Clinton, Greene and Clark shall perfectly is the republican system carried out. elect one Judge. Gentlenen will not dispute the justness of thesepo- The Third Judicial District shall consist of the ltical truisms-their truth is too apparent to be con- coun ties of Shelby, Auglaiz., Allen, Hardin, Logan, troverted or denied. Yet from them inevitably aprings Union, Marion, Mercer, Van Wert, Putnam, Paulding, tte doctrne that each several cnstituency in the State, Defiance, Williams, Henry, Fulton, Wood, Seneca, is eutitled to demand itsseparate representative. If Hancock, Wyandot and Crawford, which shall be sub republicanisrm means any thing, it means precisely divided for Election 1purposes. as follows: the counties this-it may almost be said to mean but this. of Shelby, Auglaize, Allen, H,rdiu, Logan, Union and Mr. President, I do not propose to attempt to reply Marion shall elect one udge; the conties of M. rer, YMarion shall elect one Judge; the counties of M, reefsr to the arguments of the gentlemen who have taken the Van Wert, Putnam, Pautlling, Defiance, Williams, other side of this question, for this simple reason: I Henry and Fulton shall elect one JiLge; and the counhave heard ne argument. I have no desire to disparage ties of Wood, Seneca, Hancock, Wyandot and Crawthe eforts of any member on this floor; but I must be ford hall elect one Judge. permitted to insist that they have not met the single Sac. 4. The Fourth Judicial District shall consist of di~~~~~~~~~~~~~strc. p.Te ortJuinciple Ditictsh'Oi consist. Geteefwl~ district principle with argument. Gen tlemen w ilnot the counties of Lucas, Ottawa, Sandutky, Erie, Huron, nderstand me as asserting that nothing has beon-said Lorain, Medina, Summit and Cuyahoga, which shall upon the subject. There has been a great deal said; be subdivided for Election purposes, ai follows: the etill there has been no argument The details of the counties of Lucas, Ottawa, Sa'dusky, Eriead Huron different plans of single district apportionment have shall elect one Judge; the counties of Lorain, Media been examined, attacked and criticised. There have and Summit shall elect one Judge; and the county of been assertion, declamation and denunciation, but amid Cuyahoga shall elect one Judge. all, the great principle that every constituency in the SEc. 5. The Fifth Judicial District shall consist of State of the legal amount, is entitled to its own sepa- the counties of Clermont, Brown, Adams, Highlatnd, rate representative, stands as it always hlasstood, not Ross, Fayette, Pickaway, Franklin and Madison, which impregnable merely, but beyond the reach of attack. ahall be subdivided for election purposes, as follows: The question then beingon the adoption of the res the counties of Clermont, Brown and Adams shall elation elect one Judge; the counties of Highland, Ross anla r. MITCHELL ovedthe previous question. Fayette shall elect one Judge; and the counties of The question then being "shall thA main question be Pickaway, Franklin and Madison shall elect-oue Judge. Tow putt" it was agreed to. Sjc. 6. The Sixth Judicial District shall consist of The question then being on the adoption of the reso- the counties of Licking, Knox and Delaware, Morro,, -ition. Richland, Ashland, Wayne, HIfolmes alnd -Coshocton, Mr. MITCGELL demanded the yeas and nays, which shall be divided for election purposes, as follows: which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 47, nays 49, as the counties of Licking, Knox and Delaware shall elect follows — vt-sssAnrw,followsf ongmr one Judge; the counties of Morrow, Richland and Yz,s —Messrs. Awlrews, Barbee, Barn~et of M[ontgomery, carnett Of Probe Andes, Baerbe, BatLicketderfer. Brown Ashland shIall elect one Judge; and the counties of of Athens. Brown of Carroll, Chambers. Coilings, Cook, Wayne, Hels and Coshocton shall elect one Judge. 4 urry, wart, Florence, Gillett, Graham. Gray, Green of SEc. 7. The Seventh Judicial District shall consist Rogs, [lamiltonl, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, of th counties of Fairfield Perry Hocking Vititon Horton, Hu,.ter, Larsb, Mason, Morehead, Morris, MCtIoud, McCormiek, Nash, Otis, Perkins. Reemelin. Scott of Harri- Jackson, Pike, Scioto, Gallia, Lawrence, Meigs, Athens eon, Smith of Higliland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stan and Washington, which shall be subdivided for Electon, Stilwell, Swan. Swift, Taylor, Williarms, Woodbury tion purposes, as follows: the counties of Fairfield, and Worthingtonu-47. Nays-AMessrs. Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaney, C~lark Perry and Hocking shall elect one Judge; the counties Dorsey, Ewing. Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg of Jackson, Pike, Scioto and Lawrence shall elect one Groesbeck, Hard, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Judge; and the counties of Gallia, Meigs, Athens and [unt, Johnson, Jones, King. Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Washington shall elect one Judg.. Leech Leadhetter, Lidey, London, Mitchell, Nerris, Orton, Patterson, Pec;k, Quigley. Ranney. Riddle, Roll, Scott of' Sac S- The Eighth Judicial District shall consist of Pglaize, %ellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble,; the counties of Muokingum, Morgan, Guernsey, BelThompson of btark, Townshead, Vance of Butler, Warren,. mont, Monroe, Jefferson, Harrison and Tuscarawas, way,'ll ilsou and Pr~esident-49.: * which shall be subdivided for Election purposes, as So the resolation was disagreed to. - follows: the counties of Muskitigum and Morgan shall 1823 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-THURSDAY, MARCh 6. Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell and WV orthington —45. So the resolution was agreed to. Mr. LIDEY )ubmitted the following: "Resolved, That the committee on Revision be instructed to insert the following resolution in report number two of the select committee on the Schedule; Resolved, That said election shall be opened be 'tween the hours of eight and ten o'cleeck, A. M., and close at six o'clock, P. M." Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 52, nays 36, a fol lows: YEs- Messrs. Archbold, Cabill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr Forbes, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, Kirkwood, ' Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey,Loudoi, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Quiglev Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger'Struble, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Yance of Butler, Warren, Way, Williaml)s, Wilson, Worthington and President-52. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennet, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Clark, Collings, Curry, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holton, Humphreville, Hunter, Larsh, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Scott of Harrison, Smith Warren, Stanber, Stilwell, Swan, Swift and Woodburry-36. So the resolution was agreed to. Mr. STANTON siubmitted the following: Reselled, That at the time of submitting this Constittion to the people for ratification, the question of single Representative and Senatorial districts shall be submitted tD a separate vote of the people in manner following, to witr Those who are in favor of dividing the State into single Districts for the election of Senators and Representatives, shall endorse on their tickets these woyds-'"Single Districts, yes;" those who are opposed to dividing the State into single districts shall endorse on their tickets the word,"Single Dis triets, no." The result shall be ascertainaed by the Secretary of State, and reported to the Governor on or betore the foartih day of July; and the Governor shall, within ten days tiereafter, announce the result to the people of the State by proclamation. If a majority of the votes given on the question shall be in favor of Single DI)istricts, the following provision shall be incorporated into, and become part of this Constitution, to wit: Sac. - In each county of this State, which by this Constitution shall at any time be entitled to more than one Senator or Representative in the General Assembly, the Trus tees of each township, and the Trustees or Councilmen of each Ward or Election District in any incorporated town eaty orborough, shall appoint one of their members, whco shall meet at the Court House in their respective counties on the second Tuesday in October next preceding the election at which such county will be entitled to more than one Sena tor or Representative, and divide their respective counties into as many Senatorial and Representative Districts, as such counties may respectively be entitled to Senators or Repre sentatives, which shall not be altered during the decennial! period in which it is made, unless the iumber of Senators or Representatives to which such county is entitled, shall b increased or diminished during the current decennial perioct in which it is made. And ont the second Tuesday in August, next preceding the election at which the number of Senators or Representatives Iron any count:, shall be increased old diminished, the representatives from the several tows ships, wards or election districts aforesaid, shall in like manner meet and divide their respective counties intro as many Senatorial and gepresentative Districts as such counties may respectively have Senlators and~ Rep~resentatives; and in all such apportionments, the Senatorial and Represen tative Districts shall be composed of entis townships, wards, or election Districts, of compact and contiguous territorya and as nearly equal in population as practicable. -ThFe Ge-. eral Assemlbly shall have power to prescribe the time all[ manner of appointing the representatives of the several townships. wards, and election districts aforesaid. elect one Judge; the counties of Guernsey, Belmont and Monroe shall elect one Judge; and the counties of J, fferson, Harrison and Tuscarawas shall elect one Judge. SEC. 9. The Ninth Judicial District shall consist of the counties of S ark, Carroll, Columbiana,Mahoning, Portage, Trumbull, Geauga, Lake and Ashtabula, which shall be subdivieed for Election purposes, as follows: the counties of Stark, Carroll and Columbiana shall elect one Judge; the counties of Trumnibull, Portage and Mahoninig shall elect one Judge; and the counties of Geauga, Lake and Ashtabula shall elect one Judge SEC. 10. The General Assembly shall attach any "nIw counties which may hereafter be erected to such of said Judicial Districts and to such subdivisions thereof as shall be most convenient. J. R. SWAN, S. J. KIRKWOOD, P. STILWELL, ELIJAH VANCE. W. S. GROESBECK, S. MASON, P. HITCHCOCK, R. P. RANNEY, S. HUMPHREVILLE, GEO. J. SMITH. On motion of Mr. SWAN the report was laid on the table and ordered to be printed. On motion of Mr. BENNETT, the rules were suspended, and the report, was read a second time. On motion of Mr. CHAMBERS, the report was committed to a committee of the whole Convention. Mr. DORSEY submitted the following: Resolved, That the committee on re vision be instructed to add the following section to the Article on Corporations in this Constitution: No act of the Gene ral Assembly uthorizig the form at n as s cation of associations with Banking powers shall go into effect, or in any manner be in force, unless the s ame shall be submitted to the people at the general election next succeeding the passage of the sade, and b e r a pproved by a majority of a ll the votes cast at such elec tio n for or again it such law." Mr. DORSEY moved the previous question. Tie question then bei ng "Sh all t he main question be now put," it wa s agreed to. The ques tion then being on the adoption of the resolution. Mr. LAWRENCE demanded the veas and nays, whichuwere o rdered, and resulted-yeas 50, nays 45, as follows: YsEAS-Messrs. Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Olark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Gregg, Hard, Henderson, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, King. Kirkwood, Lawrence d, Leadbetter, Lidey, oNn, orris, Ort on, or rs Otis, Pa tte rson, Pe rkins, Quigley, Ranney, Sellers, q thbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swan, Swift, I':ivloT, Thompson of Stark, Town.-hend, Vance -of ]~t let. Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson Woodbury angel President-50. NAys-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens. Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hor toii, Hunter. Jones, Larsh, Larw.il, Leech. Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Peck, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, 824 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, MARCa 7. Mr. STANTON moved that the resolution be laid In section one, line one, of the article on the Legison thE table and ordered to be printed. lative Department, after the word "proceedings," ian. Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize demanded a division of sert the words "which shall be iublished." the question. It was agreed to. The question being first on laying the resolution The question then being on the second amendment, on the table; it was agreed to. to wit: The question then being on ordering the resolutions In section sixteen, in the middle of the same, of the to be printed: article on the Legislative Department, after the word Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize demanded the yeas and "contain," insert the words "more than one subject." nays, which wereordered, and resulted-yeas 40, nays It was agreed to. 52, as follows: The question then being on the third amendment YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont- to wit: gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of In section two, line one, of the article on the JudiAthens, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Coos, ciary, insert after the word "Judges," the following: Curry, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green "a majority of whom shall te necessary to form,, a of Ross, Hamilton, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, quorum, or pronounce a judgment." Hunter, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, It was agreed to. Nash, Otis, Perkins, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison, The question then being on the fourth amendment, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Taylor, Vance of to wit: V Butler, Wilson, Woodbury,and Worthington-0. In section thirteen, in the middle of the same, of NAYs-Messrs. Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Dorsey, Ew- the article on the Judiciary, after the word "elected," ing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groes- insert the following words: "for an entire term.", beck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Mr. STANTON demanded the yeas and nays Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Jones, King, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 47, nays 44 Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Li- as follows: dey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery. Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Bates, Bennett, Brows of Athens, Brown of Carroll, ChamScott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stan- ber, Callings, Cur, Dorsey, Ewart Ewing, Florence hersi, Collings, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Florence. berS Stebbins,o i Se ls, Stidgero g Strubblead, Swift,a Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hitchcock of bery, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger. Strubble, Swift, Geauga, Horton, lBumphreville, Hunt, Johnson, Kirkwood, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Warren, Way, and Lawrence, Loudon, Manon, Mason, Morris, McCloud, Iash, President-52. Peck, QCuigley, Ranney, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Smith of High So the motion to print the resolutions was disa- land, Smith of Warren, Stilwell, Swan, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler and Way-47. ~~~~~~~greed to.~~ ~NAYs-MeSsrs. Barnett of Preble, Cahill, Case of Licking, Mr. EWART, from the select committee on the Chaney, Clark, ('ook, Farr, Graham, Greene of Defian,ce Schedule, to which had been recommitted the Report Green of Ross, Hamilton, Hawkins, Henderson, Holt, Hoot. Number One, of the committee on that subject, re- man, Hunter, Jones, King, Larsl, Larwill, Leech, Leadbet. ter, Lidey, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Otis, Patterson, ported the same back with sundry amendments. Perkins, Reemelin, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Mr. RANNEY moved that the Report, and pend Sellers, Stanbery, Stanton. Stebbins, Stidger, Struble, Swift, ing amendments, be laid on the table, and ordered to Warren, Williams, Wilson. Worthington and President-4, be printed, which was agreed to. So the amendment was agreed to. On motlon of Mr. RANNEY, the Convention took The question then being on the fifth amendment,to up the Report of the Committee on Revision, Ar- wit: In section fifteen, towards the close of the same, rangement and Enrollment. of the article on the Judiciary, after the word "meem Mr. LEADBETTER moved to amend the Report bers," insert the words "elected to each House;" by adding, at the end of section fifteen, of the Article which was agreed to. on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, the words "or The question then being on the sixth amendment trespass." to wit: In section seventeen, in the first part of the Mr. WOODBURY demanded the previous ques- same, of the article on the Judiciary, after the-words tion. "two thirds of," insert the words "the members elee The question then being-Shall the main question ted thereto," it was agreed to. be now put? it was agreed to. The question then being on the seventh amendment, The question then being on agreeing to the amend- to wit: In section four, of the article on Corporations, ment rgroposdeaed bth Mr. LEAnBdTTEn: add at the-end of the same, these words, "and until Mr. LEADBETTER demanded the yeas and nays, their successors are qualified;" it was agreed to. which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 37, nays 47, The question then betng on the eighth amendmenit, YEA-s follows: A dBent BrwcaAtesto wit: In section five, of the article on Corporations, YEAS - Messrs. Archbold, Bennett, Brown of Athens, add at the end of the same, "except by authority of Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings. Cook, Ewart, Ewing, Forbes, Gillett, Gray. Hawkins; law:" it was agreed to. Hootman, Humphreville, Johnson, Kirkwood, Lawrence 0, M~~~~~~~~~~Yr. HUMPHREVILLE moved to recommit the Re.. Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Mason. Morehead, McCor. mick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Smith of Warren, Stickney, Stidger, port to the standing committee on Revision, Arrange. Swan, Thomrson of Stark, Warren, Williams and Wilson ment and Enrollmont, which was agreed to. — 37. Mr. GREEN of Ross moved that the committee on XNAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Revision be instructed to strike out the words "for Barnett of Preble, Bates, Cahill, Case' of Licking, Curry, debt Florence, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groes- debt,' in section fifteen, of the article on the Pream. beck, Hard, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Horton. ble and Bill of Rights: which was disagreed to. Hunter, Jones, King, Larsh, Larwill, Manon, Morris, On motion of Mr. GRAY, McCloud, Norris, O.uigley. Ranney, Reemelin, Itiddle, Roll, m - Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Highland. Stanher v, Stebbins, Stilwell, Swift, Taylor, T',wnsbend. Vance of Butler Way,Woodbury and President ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SECOND D AY — 47. So the amendment was disagreed to. FRIDAY, March 7th, 1851. The question then being o-n agreeing to the first 90O'CLocK, At.K Thequetio thn bingon gi'ein totil, frst The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. amendment proposed by the committee on Revision, O motion mr. ArCHan D to Convent Enrollment and Arrangement, towit: a, Oa m otion of Mr. ARCHBOLD, the Convention 825 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FBIDAY, MAP c' 7. e son be incompetent to be a witness on account of his religious belief; but nothing herein shall be construed it to dispense with oaths and affirmations. Religion, mor e. ality, and knowledge, however, being essential to good i: government, it shall be the duty of the GenLeral Assem. - bty to passsuitable laws, to protect every religious de e nomination in the peaceable enjoyment of its own I1 mode of public worship, and to encourage schools and p the means of instruietion. ae SEc. 8. The privilege of the writ of. habeas corpus f shall not be suspended, unless, in cases of rebellion or s Invasion, the public safety require it. y Sozc. 9. All persons shall be bailable by sufficient t sureties, except for capital offences, where the proof is ya evidenit, or the presumption great. Excessive bail shall , not be required: nor excessive fines imposed; nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. SEC. 10. Except in cases of impeachment, and cases r ar isin g In the army and navy. or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger, and M- in cases of petit larceny and other inferior offences, no pf person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise - infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment d of a grand jury. In any trial, in any court, the party o accused, shall be allowed to appear and defend in person and with counsel; to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him, and have a copy thereof; to meet the witnesses face to face, and to have coiiIpulsory process to process to procure theattendance of witnesses M in hisbehalf,and aspeedy publictrial by an impartial jury k of the county or district, in which the o(ffence is alleged : to have been committed; nor shall any person be corm, pelled, in any criminal case, to be a witness against s himself, or be twice put in jeopardy for the same s offence. SEc. 11. Every citizen may freely speak, write, and publish his sentinments on all subjects, being re sponsible for the abuse of the right; and no law shall be passed to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech, or of the press. In all criminal prosecutions, for lib,.l the truth may be given in evidence to the jury, and if ; it shall appear to the jury, that the matter, charged as libellous is true, and was published with good motives, and forjustifiable ends, the party shall be acquitted. Szc. 12. No person shall be trapnsported out of the i St.te'for any offence committed within the sanie; and r no conviction shall work corruption of blood, or forfei ture of estate. r Sac. 13. No soldier shall, in time of peace, be quar atered in any house, without the consent of the owner; nor, In time of war, except in the manner prescribed by :aw. Stc. 14. Tne right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and possessions, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no warrant shall issue, but upon probable cause, r supported by oath or affirmation, particularly descri bing the place to be searched,and the person and things to be seized. Sxc. 15. No person shall be imprisoned for debt, in any civil action, or mesno or final process, unless in * cases of fraud. r Sc. 16. All courts shall be open. and every person f for an injury done him in his land, goods, person, or reputation, shall have remedy by due course of law, and justice administered without dlenial or delay. * Szc. 17. No hereditary emoluments, honors, or privilege, shall ever be granted or conferred by this State. e Sra. 18. No power of suspending laws shall ever be iexercised, except by the Generatl Assembly. SEc. 19. Private property shall ever be held inviolate but subservient to the public welfare. When taken in time of war, or other public exigency, imperatively requiring its immediate seizure, or for the took up the report of the pb select committee on Financ sad Taxation, with the pending am,enndments. Tho question being first on agreeing to the firs amendment proposed by the comm ittee, to wit: Strik, out section two and insert in lieu thereof the following -Uniform laws shall be passedupon the subject of tax ation, embracing all property accord ing to its true valu in money, provided that buryidggrounds, public schoo houses and houses used exclusively for public worshit and property held by the public or open to public Use without allny c harge therefor, n ad a limite d amount o p ersonal property not exceeding two hundred dollar to nay one individual may be exempt from taxation b] general law, but the value of all property so eaxemp shall annually be published as may be directed by laa and all such exemptions shall be subject to modification alteration or repeal." Mr. MANON demanded a division. The question turning first on'striking out seto two. Mr. McCORMICK moved to perfect the words pro posed to be stricken out, by adding to the end thereo the following: -But the value of all property so ex erupt Lhall annually be published as may be directed by law, and all such exemptions shall be subject to modification, alteration or repeal. Pending which, On motion of Mr. RANNEY, the Report and pend hg amendments were laid on the table. Mr. RANNEY, from the standing committee on Re vision, Arrangement and Enrollment, reported back the article on Preamble and Bill of Rights, as follows WE, the people of the State of Ohio, grateful to Al mighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessing and promote our common welfare, do etabisb tih -Constitution, ARTICLE -; -BILL OF RIGL'ED Ee. 1. All men are, by nature, free and independ eat, and have, certain inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and seek ita and obtaining happiness and safety. -Sc. 2. All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for their equal protection and benefit, and they have the right to a]ter, reform ox -abolish the same, whenever they may deem it neces sa,ry; and no special privileges or immunities shall ever oe granted, that may not be alteaed, revoked or repealed by the General Assembly. SEc. 3. The peopls have the right to assemble together, in a peaceable manner, to consult for their common good; to instruct their representatives; and to pe. tition the General Assembly for the redress of grievances. thtc. 4. The people have a right to bear arms for their defence and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up;and Ihe military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power. Szo 5. The right of trial by jury shall be inviolate. SEc. 6. There shall be no slavery in this State; nor involuntary servitude, unless for the punishment of crime. VSzC. 7. All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience. No person shall be compelled to attend, erect, -or support any place of worship, or maintain alny form of worship, against his consent; and no preference shall be given, by law, to any relit gious society, nor shall any interference with the rights of conscience be permitted, No religious test shall be required, ass qualification for office, nor shall any per I I 826 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, MARCH 7. ' Mr. STANBERY. I hope that the door for amendment to this constitution may not be shut down , now. There may be subjects of great importance that have been overlooked. It seems to me that it should be kept open to the last moment. Mr. WORTHiINGTON moved that the report be taken up. The question then being on taking up the report for amendment. Mr. SAWYER. I should like to know In what respect, the gentleman wants to amend this report. I have no desire to pass hastily over the duties, we have to-perform, but gentlemen must remember that our timne is short here. We have but two more working days, and I will never vote to rescind the resolution to adjourn on the 10th. Let gentlemen wait a while un til the other reports of the committee on revision come in. The PRESIDENT. I would observe that the arti cle is now up for enrollment. If any amendments are to be made, this is the last opportunity. Mr. STANBERY. I have an objection to this enrollment on parchment. The object of the rule read by the President was to secure an opportunity for amendment to the very last moment. Now here are in the article on the legislative department several sec tions left out. Mr. SAWYER. The gentleman will find them in another place. Mr. STANBERY That is probably true, and: 1 have no do ubt it is. But how are we to ha ve such rknowledge of the fact, as to justify a ction under it? We ought to know. We ought to have thie sections, in the place where they have been put, before u s. After the article has been enrolled, it is out of our power. I would suggest that it be laid aside untoll all the r eports of the committee of revision are all in. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. I would suggest to the gentleman from Franklin, that he had better begin by moving to rescind the resolution by which we agreed to adjourn on the 10th i,stant. Mr. NASH. The report of the Committee on the Bill of Rights is now before the Convention. There is all in it that there ever was. Why can we not dim1 pose of it? Mr. CHAMBERS. Unless gentlemen specify what amendments they desire to move, I shall vote against taking up. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I want to make a motion to strike out section fifteen, but rather than throw open the article to general amendment, I will vote agaiag the motion. The question then being on taking up, Mr. STIDGER demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 10 nays 77, as follows:; YEAI-Messrs Archbold, Bates, Hootman, Larsh, Lawrence, Leaxdbetter, Manon, Otis, Stidger and Wor. thington —10. NAY- 3Iessrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Ohshey, Clark, Coilings, Cook, Curry5, Dorsey,Ewart, Florence, Forbes, Gillett,Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, H-orton, Humnphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Johnson, Jonles, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Lch, Lidey, Loudon, Mitc~hell, Mo)rris, McCloud, Mc~orelmick, ~Nash, ~orris, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Reemnelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harris son, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers. Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stic~ purp ose o f making o r repairing roads, which shall be open to the public wit hout charge,a compensation shall be made to the owner, in money; and in all other cases, where )riv ate p roperty shall betake n for public use, a compensation therefor s hall first be made in mon ey, or firs t secu red by a depos it of money, and suceh compensatiome shall be assessed by a jury, without deduc tion for benefits to any property of the owner. SEC. 20. This enumeration of rights shall not be construed to impair or deny others retaine d by the people; and all powers not herein delegated remafi with the people. The quest ion then b eing " shall the Article be now enrolled." Mr. BENa ETT, inquired if the report was open to amendmen t ge n erally. The PRESIDENT. When this report was before thie convention yesterday, the char hair had some difficulty under t he rul e in determining w hat should be done with i t. The f orty s eve ntth rule of th i s body provides that every article which it is proposed shall form a part 'of the constitUtion, shall be reand the first and second time, and t)e referred to t he committee of the whole; and after it shall be considered in committee of the whole, by secti on s, and after the amendments by the committee of t he whole hall ha hve been acted upon, the same shall be open for amendment in the convention; after which the question shall be on ordering the article to be engrossed for its third reading, and after the articlehas been read a th ird time and passed, it shall be referred to a co mmittee of e nerolme nt, who shall also serve as a committee of revision and arrangement, who shall report to the Convent ion all such verbal amendments as sh all, by said committee be deemed e xpedient, not however changing the substance of the article; providedt that th is rul e shall not be so construed as to prevent a majority of t he convention from takii~gup said matter, and committing, recommitting or referring the same to an y app ropriate standing or select committee, or making any alteration or amendment to the same. The article now under consideration has been first reported to th e convention by one of the standing Committees, read the first and second times, passed through the committee of the whole, a cted upon inI the Convention, engrossed, read the third time, passed, and referred to the committee of enrollment, from wh ich it has returned with certain verbal amendments, which the committee deemed it expedient should-be made. The,report thus amended is now before the conv enti on, and the business first before the convention is upon agreeing to the amendments made b y th e committee of revision. Mr. BENNETT. To save time, I would inquire if amend men ts in gen eral will be in order, after those of the committee have been acted upon. The PRES!DENT. We will go o ve r the repor t the first time, at any rate, after which that question play be raised. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I wish to inquire if the bill is now open for amendment. I wish to make a motion to strike out section fifteen. The PRESIDENT. The section I have once read provides that nothing shall prevent a majority of the convention from takting tip said matter and committing, recommitting or referring the same, or makinlgany alteration or amendment. The view which -the chair has takers of thne construction of this rule is this: — This article has passed through its regular order and is now ready for enrolment. It does not of itself come before the convention for amendment; but may be e taken up by a majority. If gentlemen desire, the chair will entertain areotion to take up the article for amendment. 827 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, MARCH 7. ney, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Ewart, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Woodbury and Pres- Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Ham ident-77. ilton, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Larch, So the Convention refused fo take up the article. Manon, Mason, Mor,,head, Morris, McClou(l, Nash, The question then being, shall the article be enroll- Otis, Peck, Perkins, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott ed? It was agreed to. of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Oni motion of Mr. MANON, the Convention took Stenbery, Stilwell, Swan, Warren, Woodbury anid up the report of the Select Committee on Finance and Worthington-46. Taxation, with the pending amendments. NAYsMessrs. Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey,Farr,Forbe% The question pending, being on agreeing to the Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard,i Henderson, Holmes, amendment of Mr. MCCORMICK, Holt, Hootman, Humphrevil]e, Iluit, Hunter, Jones, Mr. PERKINS moved the previous question. King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbet The question then being, "shall the main question ter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris,' be nowput?" ton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Roll, Scott of A Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which glalze, Sellers, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, were ordered, and resulted-yegas 43, nays 42, as fl Struble, Swift, Thompson of Stark, TowTnshend, lows: Vance of Butler, Way,~Wilson and President. YzAs-Messrs. Barbee, Bennett, Blickensderfer, So the motion to strike out was disagreed to. Brewn of Carroll, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Dorsey, Ew- The question then being on the second amendment, art, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Greene of Defiance, Gregg proposed by the majority of the committee, to wit Hamilton, Hard, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hum- Strike out section three of the report, and insert in phreville, Hunt, Hunter, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, lieu thereof the following: McCloud, Nash, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, "The General Assembly shall provide by law for Roll, Sawye-, Sellers, Stanton, Stebbins, Swift, Taylor, I taxing the property, capital, moneys, credits and effects Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, Wilson, Wood- of all bankers and banks now or hereafter existing in bury, Worthington and President-43. this State, so that the same shall bear a burthen of tax NAYs-Messrs. Archbold, Barnet of Montgomery, ation equal to that imposed upon the same amount of Barnett of Prheble, Bates, Brown of Athens, Case of property, capital, moneys, credits and effects belonging Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cock, Florence, Gra- to individuals." ham, Gray, Green of Ross, Harlan, Henderson, Hoot- Mr. REEMELIN moved to amend the amendment mn Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larh, Lawrnc Lar- by striking out all after the word "taxing," and insert van. Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Lar- in ie thereof the following: will, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidty, Manon, McCormick,in lieu thereof the followng Norris, Otis, Reernelin, Scott of Harrison S cott of Au- "All banks or banking companies now or hereafter glaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stan- in existence, for all purposes, where located on the bery, Stilwell, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Townshend, average amount of their notes and bills discounted, or 'Warren and may-42. moneys, or credits, in any manner or form secured or inveseed, and for which there shall have been at any So the demnand for the previous question was sus- time reserved, or received, or expected to be received, tained. any interest, profit, or other consideration whatever, The question then being on agreeing to the amend- with no deduction therefrom except for bona fide deiment proposed by Mr. MCCORMICK, |posits, for which not less than five per ceint. per annumrn Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which interest shall have been allowed." were ordered, and resulted-yeas 37, nays 53, as fol- The question being on the motion of Mr. RrED. lo Ws: LLN: 10 W8:~~~~~~~~~~~~LIN: YEAsMessrs. Cahill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Mr. ARCHBOLD. I want to occupy a moment in Clark, Collings, Forbes Greene of Defiance, Hard, an explanation of the section reported by the majoriHolmes, Holt, Hootman. Hunt, Jones, Kirkwood, Lar- ty of the select committee. The section as it stands will, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, McCormick, Nash, in the report of the committee is as follows: Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Reeme]in, Riddle, "The General Assembly shall provide by law for Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, taxing the notes and bills discounted, surpluscontin, Stidger, Struble, Tayslor, Townshend, Way, and Pres- gent fund, and undivided profits, without any deduoidertr37. tions, of all banks now in existence, or hereafter to be NAYS-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Mont- created in this State, in the same manner as the propgornery, Barnett of Preble, Bales, Bennett, Blickens- erty of individuals is taxed." derfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Cham- The majority of the select committee, it will be ok bers, Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Florence, served, has not meddled with the principle of the seeGillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamil- tion so far as the taxing of banks now in existence is ton, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcockof Geauga, Hor- concerned. In that there is 110no difference from the ton, Humphreville, Hunter, King, Larsh, Lawrence, provisions of the original section. But the section of Leech, Manon, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Otis, the report enters into mere detail, and every word of Peck, Quigley, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of detail is a word of weakness. It takes away instead of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stil- adding to the power of the General Assembly, and in terll, Swan, Thompson of Stark, Vance of Butler, that respect it is dangerous. Any one who has been a Warren, Wilson, Woodbury, and Worthington-53. reader of legislative history knows the danger of too, So the amesndm' ut was disagreed to. great minuteness, even in legislative enactments. The question then being on striking out section I do not believe that this enumeration of notes and two, bills discounted, and surplus contingent fund and undi Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize, demanded the yeas and vided profits, includes every article of bank assets that nays which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 46 nays under some circumstances may and ought to ie the 46, as follows. - subject of taxation. If we defeat the object we intend to secure, we shall have nobody but ourselves to YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Mont- blame. gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickens- The amendment of the majority of the select coiderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of'Carroll, Case of mittee is as follows: "The General Assembly shall pro 828 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, MARCH 7. the capital of the institution would be taxed twice over. Another was in relation to those deposits upon which interest is allowed. The section of the 'minority remedies both these objections. The true rule of taxation would seem to be this: Whatever a bank receives interest upon, over and above what it pays interest for, should be taxed. If I loan a hundred dollars, and receive interest for it, I am taxed upon the sum, and why, I ask, should not the same rule apply to a bank? I hope that we are not about to recede from a principle which we have once declared-a principle that is honest and fair, and that only requires of the banks that they should pay such taxes as in justice they ouighlt to pay. Mr. BARBEE. I would inquire of the gentleman from Trumbull, [Mr. RA.x.NEY, whether he would place the credits of banks and the credits of individuals upon the same platform? Mr. RANNEY. I do not understand the gentle man. Mr. BARBEE. I take it for granted that he would; and where is the difference between the two cases? A bank is authorized to issue its own notes to the amount of two for one upon the amount of its securi ties. You levy a tax upon its circulation, and when it has exchanged its currency for the notes and bills of individuals, you levy a tax upon them. Is that right? You tax merchants in this way. Suppose that I buy, in New York, ten thousand dollars'worth of merchandise, upon my own credit, and for which I give my individlual obligation. I bring this mer chandize west, and go into business with it, and arn taxed upon it. I again ask the gentlemanw if he wishes to tax bank s upo n the sarme platform? Mr. RANNEY. I d o. Mr. BARBEE:' Then why does the gentleman op pose the report of the majority of the committee, which proposes precisely the samie thing? The question then being on the amendment, Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being "shall the main question be now put." Mr. MANON demanded the veas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 53, nays 37, as follows YEAS- Messrs. B'rbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Bennett, -Blickensderfer, B-own of Carroll, Ca hill, Case of Licking, Chaney, Collitngs, Ewart, Ewing, Farrt Florence, Forbes, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes. Holt, Humphreville, Htitnt, Hunter, King, Larwill, Lidey, London, Mason. Mitchell. Mor,.head, Morris, McCloud, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Quig ley, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Warreni, Stan[bery, Stebbins, Taylor. Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Woodbury, Worthington and Pres idenit-53 NAYs —Messrs. Archbold, Barnett of Preble,'Cham. bers, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Gray, tureen of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Henderson, fIootmnan, Horton, Jones,. Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Ma non, Nash, Norris, Perkinls, Ranney Riddle, Scott of Auglaize, Stilwell, Sticknley, Stidger, Struble, Swan), Swift, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wl liams and Wilson —37. So the demand for the previous question was sus tained.. The question then being on the amendment of Mr. R EEMELIN, Mr. REEM1ELIN demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordlered, and resulted, yeas 42, nays 52, as follows: YEAs_-Messrs. Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Dorsey, Ewing, Fart, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hen dersonl, Holmes, Holt, Hootmanl, H unt, Jones, King, vide by law for taxing the property, capital, moreys, credits and effcts of all bankers and banks now, or hereafter existing in this State, so that the same shall bear a burden,t' taxation equal to that imposed upon til e saodbe aotiot int atn property capital, moneys, credits and effects bI gio,gi,g to individuals." Now, this i s giving plenary power to the General Assembly. It was drawn with a direct view to the histor y of legisl ation for a thousand years-with a di rect v iew to th e shifts, the evasions, and the chicanery of b anks. It was d rawn under the influence of the r eflection that whatever is worth doing, is worth doing well. Mr. REEMELIN. The gentleman from Monroe, [Mr. ARCHBOLD,] says that his amendment was drawn with a vi ew to plac e plenary p ower in the hands of the Gen eral Assembly. In my opinion, it d oes give plenary pow er in one respect- that of preventing the canks from peaying any taxes w hatever, Under such a section as this, ge n tlemen may be assured that it will be s o fixed that not one dollar of tax will ever be pai d by any bank in the State of Ohio. The bank s do n ot own anything. Their exhib it s are only a sheet, with deb its on one si de, and cred its on the other. The ame ndment lookas as if it w ere drawn with a direct i nte ntion to preven t the banks firom being taxed, and under it all their property will be exempt. Take up an y b ank report, and what will you see? You will find several different item s, makr lng up an aggregate of deb ts on the one side, and s ev eral other items, making up an an ggr eg ate of credits on the other, and th is is all. By saying that they shall be taxed to the sa me amoun t as individuals, you evade the whol e matter of taxation. T he proposition reported by the minority, is much mor e plain and comprehe n sive, and e asier to be understood than that of the majority, and will far more effectually provide for the just and equit able ta xation of the banks of the State. Mir. LOUDON. I think tha t ge ntleme n will find the provisions of the report of the co mmitte e to be abo ut r ight,e after all. Th ey are so framed as, in my opinion, to cover a ll the property that bank s d o o r can possess, and they are s o gua r ded tha t there can be little or no danger of evasion. The gentleman from Monroe, [Mr. ARCHBOLD,] seems to think the phraseology broad enough to cover the whole ground. o gentlemen in this body, who are men of business, and understand the operations of banks, vote against this provision because it does not catch all the capital of the banks? No, sir; they are all agreed that it does so, too effectually to be evaded. Let us look at the case. Here is a bank with a capital of one hundred thousand dollars, but by vir tue of the priveleges and the franchises which it enjoys, it is enabled to enjoy the profits of a much larger sum of money. Is there any injustice in taxing it upon that which it enjoys as the effect of these privi leges and franchises? The object of this section is to reach everything of this kind, and I hope that it will not be stricken out. Mr. RANNEY. If I understand the amendment of the majority of the select committee, it is a total abandonment of the principle of bank taxation, as I supposed it settled in this Convention. On the con tralry it appears to me that the report of the minority declares the true doctrine. I was not exactly pleased with the section as it stands in the report of the stand ing committee, but the amendment of the minority, to which I have alluded, obviates the difficulty, and! hope that it will be adopted. One difficulty was, I did not know but the surplus fiund and undivided profitss of a bank might be represented by the notes and bills discounted, and thus a certain portion of 829 830 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRI.AT, MARcn 7. Lawrence,Ltrwill, Leech, Leadbetter, LideY, Lounliu, Mr. KIRKWOOD moved to reconsider the vote, by Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranntey, which the convelntion refused to strike out section 2. Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, The question being on the reconsideration, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Mr. KRKWOD. I find myself in a sitaton Stark Way,Wilsti ad Preiden 42.Mr. KIRKWOOD. I find'my,,;If' in a situation Stark, Way, Wilson and President-42. somewhat peculiar. I have always voted to tax banks, NAYs —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold,Barbee, Birnett and want to vote so still, and was in hopes to see the of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickengderfer, Brown of second section of this bill so amended as to enable me Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, to give it my support, but the previous question was Collings, Cook, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, ststained upon it, and that cut off all amendment. The Gray, Green of Ross, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hawkins, effect of the second section is to tax every dollar of Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton), Humphreville, Hunter, bank stockic in the hands of the stockholder. That Is Larsh, Manon. Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, once that the stock is taxed. The next section pro Nash, Otis, Peck, Sawyer. Scott of Harrison, Smith of videsdin addition that the bank shall be taxed, as a bank Highland. Smith of Warre,i, Stanbery, Stanton, Sil- upon its notes and bills discounted. Now I cannot well, Stidger, Swan. Taylor, Townshend, Vance of vote for this bill while one section provides to tax a Butler, Warren, Williams, Woodbury and Worthling- bank once upon its stock, and a second time upon its ton -52. stock, in the form of notes and bills, and I will not. I S. the amendment was disagreed to. want to see the second section amended, and that part The question then being on the second amendment, which relates to the taxation of the stock in the hands proposed by the majority of the committee, of the stockholders stricken out. I do not profess to Mr MANON demanded a division. know much about the business of banking, but I know The question then being first on striking out -a- enough to understand that this is not right. I am wil tlon 3. ling to withdraw my motion to reconsider if gentlemen Mr. RANNEYdemanded the yeas and nays, which desire it, and this amendment can be made in some were ordered and resulted- yeas 51, nays 43, as fol- other manner, but otherwise not; for I am sure that lows: a large majority of this convention must agree with YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Bar- me that something must be done nett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensdefer, Brown of Mr. MITCHELL. Can it be possible that the mem Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, ber of this body who has the honor to represent the de Collings, Cook, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, mocracy of good old Richland-a county always in fa Gray. Green of Ross, Groesbeck. Hamilton, Hawkins, vor of correct and democratic principles-should be Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, come so recreant to his duty as to oppose the system of Larshi, Manon, Milason, M.orehead, Monria, McCloud, taxation provided in this section? But I think the at Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison Smith tempt will prevail this time, to destroy it. of Highland, Smite of Warren, Stanberv, Stanton, Gentlemen upon the other side want to get rid of the Stilwell, Swan, Taylor, Townshend, Vance of But- provision in regard to the taxation of State and United ler, Warren, Williams, Woodbury and Worthing- States stocks. They now can vote for section three, ton-51. and if they can get section two stricken out, they will NAYs-Messrs. Cahill, Chaney. Clark, Dorsey, Ew- be fixed. Can the gentleman from Richland, (Avr. ing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, KIRKWOOD,) assert that these sections, taken together Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jones, provide for the taxation of banks more than individu King, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, als aretaxed? Loudon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Mr. KIRKWOOD. Double over. Ranney, Reenielin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Mr. MITCHELL. I think not, unless the proper Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, ty of individuals is also taxed double over. The two Thompson of Stark, Way, Wilson and President-43. sections are to be taken together and section two will So the third section was stricken out. notbeconstrued to apply to the taxation of banks. The question then being on inserting the words pro- The special provisions of the latter section will control posed by the majority of the committee, to wit: the general expressions of the former. "Sac. 3. The General Assembly shall provide by law for On motion of Mr. MANON, the Convention took a taxing the property, capital, moneys, credits and effects of all recea bankers and banks, now or hereafter existing in this State. so - that the same shall bear a burthlien of taxation equal to that AmR ON SESSIO. imposed upon the same amount of property, capital, moneys, credits and effects belonging to individu als." * 21/ O'cocK, P. A. Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas and nays, which The question pending bh(ing on the motion of Mr. were ordered, and resulted-yeas 48, nays 47, as fol- KIRKWOOD, to reconsider the vote by which the lows' Convention refused, to strike out,sectioti two.I Y~As-Messrs.Andrewvs, Archbold, Barbee, Barnetof font Mr. KIRKWOOD asked leave to withdraw his qomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, motion. rown of Athenis Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Mr STILWELL moved a call of Ewart, Florence, Gillett. Graham, Gray. Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hawkins. Henderson, Hitcacock of Geauga, Horton which was ordered and Messrs. Barbee, Blair, Case of Humphreville, Hunter, Leech, Maroon, Mason, Mitchell, Hocking, Cutler, Ewart, Harlatn, Hitchcock of Cuya. Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Pecc, Perkins, Sawyer, hoga, Holmes, Holt, Iiumphreville, Kennon, Mc(orScott ofHarrison, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stitwell, nmick, Orton, Smith of Wyandot, S'anbery, Swift, Swan, Tayior, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Wit- o hly hmag Hams and Woodbury_48. Thompson of Shelby, Vance of Champaign and Wil NAvs-Messrs. Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, liams, were found absenit. Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Green On motion of Mr. RANNEY, all further proceedef Ross, Gregg,'Hard, fHilmes, Holt Hootman, Hunt, Jones, infa und King, Larsbh Lawrence, Larwill, Leadbetter. Lidey, Lou- isun er the call were dispensed with. don, Nash, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Reem- The question then being on graltting leave to withella, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Aucelaize. Sellers, Smitli of draw the motion, Highland, Stanton, Siebbins, Stickney,,Stidger, Struble, Mr. CASE of Licking, demanded the yeas and nays, Swift, Thompson of Stark, Way, Wilson, Worthington which were orderedaud resulted-yeas 49, nays 42, as ae d Presid entw-47. e t f So the amendment was agroed to. follows: OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —FRIDAY, MARCH 7. YEAS-Messrs. Archbold, Cahill, Chaney, Clark Dorsey, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney, Ewing, Farr, lorbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Grees Heemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auiaize, Sellers, beck, Hard, Henderson, Hootman, Hunt, Jones, King, Kirk- Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger,:truble, swift, laylor, Thompwood, Lawrcnce, Larwll, Leechl, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudorn, sun of Stark, Tuowsherld, Warren, Way, Wilson and PresMitcliell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, ident-49. Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawver, Scott of Auglaize, NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of MontSellers, Stebbius, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, swift, Thomp- gomery, Barnett ol Preble, Bates, lennett, Blickensderfcr, son of Stark, Townsheii, Vance of i;utler, Warren, Way, Hrown ol Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hockin, Case WNilsou and President-49. of Liclking,iChambers, Collings,Cook, Curry, Dorsey, hwart, NAYs-Messrs. Andrews- Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett k lorence, (illett, Graham. Gray, Green oI Ross, Hamilton of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Hawkins, Hitchcook of Geauga, Horton, Hlumphreville Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Collings, Cook, Curry, Hunter, Larsh, Maianon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, MlcCloud, Florence, GilIett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross Hamilton, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkiins, Scott of Hiarrison, Smith of I-Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Larsh, Highland, Smith of W,arren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell Manen, Mason. Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Swan, Vance of Butler Woodbury and Worthllnton —49. Peck, Perkins,,Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith So the motioi to refer was disagreed to of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Swan, Taylor, he q tio t e t dto Woodbury and Worthington 2.'l'he question then being o the adoption of the re So leave to withdraw the amendment was granted. solution Mr. KIRKWOOD moved that the Reportand pend- Mr. SMITI of Warren, moved the previous que fng amendments be recommitted to the standing com- tion auittee on Finance and Taxation. The question then bhing "shall the main question mitte~e on Finance and Taxation..Ib opu,itwsareto On which motion Mr. RANNEY demanded the yeas be sow put," it was agreesd to. and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 52, The question then being on the adoptiou of the resonays 42, as follows: lutiou, nays 42~, as follows: Mr. CASE of Lickinig demanded the yeas and nays, YEAs-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Ca which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 47, nays SO0 hill, Case of Licking, Clianey, Clark, Ewing, Forbes, as follows: Farr, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Henderson, YEA-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold,Barbee, Blrnet of Mont'jolt, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Joues, gomcry, Barnett ol rreble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbet- Biown of Athens. Brown ol Carroll, Case of Hlocking, Case ter, Lidey, Loudon, Mation, Mitchell, McCormick, of licking, Chamihbeis, Collings, Coo(,, Ewart, Florence, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranniey, Reemelin, Gillet, L-iahin, (Tray Green ol toss, Hariiltor, Hawkins ' Hitchcock of (ieauga,,norton, Huiaphreviie, Hunter, Larsh, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott ol Auglaize, Sellers, Steb- Main,n Mason, iloreliead, 1rri s,LvcCu,ash,Utis,Peck bins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Thoml)son of Stark, Penkins, Scott of Harrison Smith of Highland, Smith of Towushentd, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson Waren Stabery,StantnStilwell, Swan, Vance of utler, and President-52. Isarren and Wottiilgtoii-47. atid. ~~~~~~~NaYs —Messrs. tPahill, Chaney, Clark, Curry, Dorsey, Ew. NAYs —Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barnett of Pre- ing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of leiance Gregg, Groesbeck ble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderler, Brown of Athens, Hard, Hendierson, Holmes,Holt, Hootman, Hunit, Jones,King, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Col lir)gs, Curry, Dorsey Kirkwood, Lawrelle, Larwill Leech Leadbetter, Lidey, ' ~~~~~~~~~Loudon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris,, Orton, Patterson Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, (uigley, Ratney, MeenaCelmicd Hurll,i ScOroatteolane Ewart ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~uge, Ranreec, Heenielin, Rdl,Hl,Sott of Auglaize. Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, sellers, Stebbius, Stickney, Stidger, Struole, Swift, Taylor, Huntter, Larshi, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Thoimpson of Stark, Townshend, Way, V,'ilson, Woodbury Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Scott of Harrison, Smith and President-5 of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stilwell, So the resolution was disagreed to. Swan, Swift, Taylor, Woodbury and Worthington Mr. RANNOY, un leave, from the standing com42. nmittee on Revlsion, Arrungeinetit and Enrollment re So the motion to recommit was agreed to. ported back tie article on lie Legislative Deparinent, as follows, to wit: Mr. CASE of Licking, submitted the following. as follows, to wit: ResolvUed, That the committee otn Finance and Tax- ARTICL. ation be instructed to amend their Report as follows, LEGISLATIVE. to wit: - Src 1. The Legislative power of this State shall be Strike out all of section two to the word "Provided" vested in a General Asseiibly, which shall consist of and insert in lieu of the words stricken out, the fol- a Senate and House of Representatives. lowing: S:ic. 2. Senators and Repre.-eiitatives shall be elect ",SEc. 2. All property in this State, includingInvestments ed bieinnially, by the electors in tile respective counties in all kind of stockl, whether owned by individuals or corpo or dis'ricts, oil the second Tuesday ot Obtuber; their rations, now or hereafter existing, shall be taxed upon its - s value, which shall be ascertained in such manner as may be term of office shall comimence on tie first day of Janprovided by law, making taxation equal and uniform. Pro- uary slext thereafter, aud continue two years. vided, that the General Assemit,ly shall exempt from taxation SEC. 3. Senators atid Representatives shall have reall property which may be exempt by virttie of the Constitu- aided in their respective counties or districts one yea tion of the United States, and that burying-grounds, public school-houses, houses used exclusively for public worship, Liex[ preceding their election, unless they shall have institutions of purely public charity, the property of the been absent on the public business of the United States, State, of the United Stales, of counties, townships, cities or of this State. and towns, may by general laws be exempt from taxation. Sc. 4. No person holding office under te authori And the General Assembly may exempt from taxation prop - o eso lu oie u nder erty belonging to each individual, subject to taxation, not ty of tle United States, or aly lucrative office under exceeding in value two hundred dollars." tile authority of this State, shall be eligible to, or have Mr. LARWILL moved that the resolution be refer- a seat ini the General Assersibly; but this provision shall red to the standing committee on Finance and Taxa- not extend to township officers, justices of' the peace, tion. notaries public, or officers of the miilitia. On which motion, SRC 5. No persoit hereafter convicted of an embez Mr. CASE of Licking, demanded the yeas and nays, zlement of the public funds, shall hold aiay office in this which were ordered and resulted-yeas 49, nays 49, as State; nor shall any persoin holding public moitey for follows: disbursement, or otlerwise, have a seat ill the Geiteral YEAs-Messrs. Cahill, Chaney, Clarl, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Assembly, until he shall have accounted for and paid Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, such crioney illto the treasury. Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Hunt, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Law- Sz;c. 6.i Each House shall bd judge of the election rence, Larwilli Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell 831 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRIDAY, MARCH 7. returns and qualifications of its own members; a ma jority of all the members elected to each House shall be a quorum to d(o business; but a less number may ad journi fr-rr day to day and compel the attendance of absent members, in such manner anid under such pen alties as shall be prescribed by law. SEC. 7. The mode of organizing the House of Re preseitatives, at the commencement of each regular session, shall be prescribed by law. SEc. 8. Each House, except as otherwise Drovided in this constitution, shall choose its own officers, may determine its own rules of proceeding, punish its mem bers for disorderly conduct; anid, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member, but not the second time for the samne cause; and- shall have all other powers necessary to provide for its safety, and the undisturbed trans-action of its business. SEC 9. Each House shall keepaeorrectjvuriall of Its proceedings, which shell be published. At the d'eire Qf any two members, the yeas and nays shall be enter ed upon the journal; and on the passage of every bill, 4n either House, the vote shall be taken by yeas and nays, f.nd entered upon the journal; and no law shall be passed, in either House, without the concurrence of a majority of all the members elected thereto. SEC. 10. Any member of either House shall have the right to protest against any act or resolution there of; and such protest,and tlie-reasons therefor,shall, with out alteration, commitment, or delay, be entered upon the journal. Sec. 11. All vacancies which may happen in either House shall for the unexpired term be filled by election, a shall be directed by law. SEC. 12. Senators and Representatives, during the sessions of the General Assembly and in going to and returning from the samre, shall be privileged from ar rest in all cases, except treason, felony or breach of the peace; and for any speech or debate, in either House, they shall not be questioned elsewhere. SEC. 13. The proceeding of both Houses shall be public, except in cases which, in the opinion of two thirds of those present, require secrecy. SEc. 14. Neither House shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than two days, Sundays excluded; nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shall be in session. SEC 15. Bills may originate in either House; but may be altered, amended or rejected in the other. SEc. 16. Every bill shall be fully and distinctly read, on three different days, unless, in case of urgency, three-fourths of the Hlouse in which it shall be pending shall dispense with this rule, No bill shall contain mnore than one subject, which shall be clearly expressed in its title; and no law shall be revived or amended, unless the new act shall contain the entire act revived, or the section or sections amended; and the section or sections, so amended, shall be repealed. SEC. 17. The presiding officer of each House shall sign, publicly, in the presence ofthe House over which he presides, while the same is in session, and capable of transacting business, all bills and joint resolutions passed by the General Assembly. Src. 18 The style of the laws of this State shall be, "Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Ohio." SC. 19. No Senator or Representative shall, dur ing the term for which he is elected, nor for one year thereafter, be appointed to any civil office under this State, which shall be created, or the emoluments of which shall have increased, durinn the term for which he was elected. Sv c. 20. The Gener al Ass embly, in eases not pro vided for in thils constitution, shall fixs the term of office and the compensation of all officers~but no change therein shall affect-the salary of any officer during his existing term, unless the office be abolished. SEc. 21. The General Assembly shall determine, by law, before what authority, and in what manner, the trial of contested elections shall be conducted. SEC. 22. No money shall be drawn from the treas ury, except in pursuance of a specific appropriation made by law; and no appropriation shall be made for a longer period than two years. SEC. 23. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment, but a majority of the members ele cted mus t concur the rein. Impeachments shall be tri ed by the Senate; an d the Senators, when sitting for that purpose, shall b e upon oath or a ffirma tion toado justice according to law and eviden ce. No person s hall beconvicted without th e concurrence of two- thirds of the Senator s. SEC. 24. The Governor, Judges, and all state offi cers may be impeached for any misdemeanor in office; .but judgment sha ll not extend furthe r than removal from office, and disqualification to hold any office un der the authority of this State. The party impeached, whether convicted or not, shall be liable to indictment, trial, and judgment according to law. SEcc 25. All r e gu lar sessions of the Gener al Asc em bly shall c o mmen ce on the first Monday of January, biennially. The first session under this constituti on shall commence on the first Monday of January, ore thousand eight hundred and fifty.two. Sec. 26. All laws of a general nature shall have a uniform operation throughout the Slate; nor shall any act, except such as relates to public schools, be passed, to take effect upon the approval of any other authority than the General Assembly, except as ttherw.se pro vided in this constitution. SE,. 27. The election and appointment of all offi cers, and the filling of all vacancies, not otherwise provided for by this constitution, or the constitution of the United States, shall be made in such manner as may be directed by law; but no appointing power shall be exercised by the General Assembly, except as pro vided for in this constitution, and in the election of Unit d States Senators,and in these cases the vote shall be taken "viva toce." SEC. 28. The General Assemblyshall have no pow er to pass retro -active laws, or laws impairing the ob ligation of contracts; but may, by general laws, au thorize courts to carry into effect, upon such terms as shall be just and equitable, the manifest intention of parties and officers by curing omissions, defects, and errors in instruments and proceedings, arising out of their want of conformity with the laws of this State. SEC. 29. No extra compensation shall be made to any officer, public agent, or contractor, after the service shall have been rendered or the contract entered into; nor shall any money be paid on any claim, the subject matter of which shall not have been provided for by pro existing law, unless such compensation or claim be allowed by two-thirds of the members elected to each branch of the General Asseinbiy. SEC. 30. No new county shall contain less than four hundred square miles of territory, nor shall any county be reduced below that amount; and all laws creating newv counlties, changing county lines, or remnoving county seats, shall, before taking effct, be submitted to the electors of the several. counties to be affected thereby, at the next general election after the passage thereof, and be adopted by a majority of all the electors voting at such election, in each of said counties, but any county, now or hereafter containing one hundred thousand inlhabitants, may be divided whenever a majority of the voter,~ residing in each of the proposed divisions, shall approve of the law passed for that purpose: but no town or- city within the sameo 832 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-FRItAYv, MARCH 7. to the committee on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollnmelnt. Mir. SAWYER submitted the following: S 3ResolTed, Tha t the Se retary o f the Conv ention be instructed to transcribe, or cause to be transcribed so -tulch of the Journal as may remain unfinished at the close of the session, and to depos it the sa me, with all papers pertaining to the business of the Convention, is the office of Secretary of State. and tha t the Presidehbt be authorized to audit his account for performing said labor." I The question being on the ad o ption of the resolutionl, Mr. LEECH. There are other duties required of the Secretary. Under the law, he is obliged to deposit the journals and documents that remain in',is hands. lhe resolution therefore merely contemplates the continuance of the Secretary ill office, until all the duties necessary to be performed are complete. Mr. PERKINS. I would merely state that the committee on comparison of the journal, have had this subject under consideration, and will report a resolution upon the subject in the morning. Mr. HAWKINS moved that the resolution be referred to the committee on comparison of the journal Mr. MANON moved that the resolution be laid on the table, which was disagreed to. Mr. SAWYER. 1 understood there was a reolu tion of some kind about to be offered, by which the duties of the Secretary were to be taken out of his hands. Now I am not willing to consent to any thing of the kind; and I will not allow an attempt to pass a censure upon one of the officers of this Con vention in this indirect manner, to pass without my strenuous opposition. The Secretary of this body has performed his duties well. He is futhlly competent to their performance, If hle has done wrong, let us proceed directly against him-if he has not dome wrong, he must be sustained. M. PERKINS. I wish to say a word in explana tion. The committee whose duty it was to compare the record of the proceedings of this body with the journal kept by the Secretary, had intended to offer a resolution providing that the Secretary be instruct ed to employ Mr. D1. H. Mortley to complete that portion of the record which will remain after the Convention has adjourned. The object of the com mTittee in coming to this conclusion, is this. In ex amrining and comparing the record with the journal, the committee were struck with the extreme correct ness and elegance with which the work has been per formed. In examining the first volume, now complete scarcelyan error has been detected, and as a speci men of neat and elegant perllnnnliship, it excels any thing we have ever seeii of the kild We could not but feel a desire that the second(l volume should be equal to and like the first: and without intending any disrespect to the Secretary, we did not deem it iu roper on our part to take such mea- u res as wethotiLght calculated to secure the end so much to be desired. The Secretary of this Convention, has, so far as I am aware, performed his duties to the satisfaction of all; and in the resolution we intended to offer, we had no desire either to censure him, or to impute in any degree either improper conduct or a desire to do wrong. But while we were disposed to do justice to the Secretary, we would do justice to the assistants also. Ml. REEMELIN. This seems to me to be simply a question of authority. The Secretary is the officer of the Convention to whom the dutv of making up the journal belongs, He and he alone is responsible for its correctness. He is the one who is only quali fied to sign and certify it. Now whatever may be shall be divided, iior shall either of the divisions contain less than twenty thousand inhabitants. SEc. 31. The members and officers of the General Assembly shall receive a fixed compensation, to be prescribed by law, and no other allowance or perquisites, either in the payment of postage or otherwise, and no change in their coinpensafion shall take effect during their term of office. SEC. 32, The Generat Assembly shall grant no divorce, nor exercise any judicial power, not herein exressly conferred. The question then being, "shall the Report be enrolled?" it was agreed to. Mr. ARCHBOLD, from the standing committee on Miscellaneous Subjects and Propositions, to which had been recommitted Report number one, of the committee on that subject, reported the same back with one amendment. The question being on agreeing to the first amnendment, to wit: In section 2, line one, strike out the word "shall," and insert in lieu thereof the word 'may." Mr. LARWILL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas b0, nays 10, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Bar. net of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates. Ben-nett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Athens, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Curry, D)orsey, Ewart, Farr, Florence Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Har d, Hawkins,Henderson, Iitchcock of Geauga, me, Holmes, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, Kirkwood, Larsh, Lawrence Lc, L ee hadbetter, Loudon, Mason, Mitchcll, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith ef Highland, Smith of Warren, Stainbery, Stanton, Stebblns, Stilwell, Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Townshend, Vanceof Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-80. NAYs-Messrs. Cahill, Larwill, Lidey, Norris, Or ton, Patterson, Reemelin, Stickney, Stidger and Thompson of Stark-10. So the amendment was agreed to. The question then being on the passage of the Report, Mr. GREGG demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 58, nays 29, as fol lows: YEAS-.Yessrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Case of Licking, Collings, Cook, Farr, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holnes, Holt, Hootinan, Hu mphreville, Hunt, lHunt er, Jones, Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Perkins, Quiglev, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Stru ble, Swift, Taylor, Thompson of Stark, Towlnshend, ~ance of Butler, Warren, Worthington and Presi dent-58. NAYs —Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bliekensderfer, Brown of -Carroll, Chamlbers, Chenley, Curry, Ewart, Florence, Greenl of Ross, Groe~sbeck, H~itchcock of Geeulgn, Horton, Wing, Larwill, Le~adbetter, Mason, 3ItCloud, Nash, Peek, Saw~yer, Smith of IHighland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stilwell, Wil liamns, Wilson andl Woodbury —29. So the Report was passed; and on motion referred 833, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCi 7. due to the recording clerk, he is in the hands of the Secretary, and one of his assistants, and we have no right to infer that hlie will eitl er perform his duty im properly, or do injustice to aho3e that are under him. For myself, I cannot vote to take the journal of this body out of the hands of the Secretary. Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. The object of the resolu tlon now under con.sideration, appears to be to re affirm the appointment of the Secretary. If that is the object it is not necesary. If its object is to take from that officer any portion of his duties, I will not vote for it. The Secretary has performed all, the duties of his office, and I will neither directly nor indirectly support any resolution that shall have a tendency to dishonorhim by taking from him any of those duties or powers which appertain to his of flee. Mr, LARSH. So far as I am concerned, nothing of the kind was intended. There was no intention to cast any imputation upon the Secretary; and our oul'y object was to secure that the second volume should be completed in the same manner as the first. The question being on the adoption of the resolu tion, Mr. MANON moved that it be laid on the table; on which motion, Mr. LARSH demanded the yeas and nays, whic.X were ordered, and resulted yeas 38, nays 51-as follows: YE-AS-Messrs. Andrews, Barnett of Preble,Case of LIcktig, Chambers, Clark, Collings, Cutrry, Ewart, Florence, Gil lett, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Hawkins Headerson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Jones, Larsh, Manon, Mason, Morehead, McCloud., Nash,Otis, Perkins, Riddle, Roll,scott of Harrison, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stilwell, Swift and Vance of Butler-38. NAys-Messrs. Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, {:haney, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hootman,Hunt, Kirkwood, Lawrence, i,arwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Morris, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Reemeli n, Sawyer, Sellers, Stanbery. Stebbins, Stidger, Struble, S Mwan, Thompson.i of Stark, Townsheud, Warren, Way, Williams, i Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington and President-51. So the motion to lay on the table was disagreed NasMlrn, aPerk in s o, Scott of Ha rrison, Stato, and Swift -14. So the res o lution was agreed to. Mr. MITCHELL submitted the followilg: Resolved, That the Convention will this night and hereafter during its continuance, hold night sessions Pending which, Mr. GREEN' of Ross, moved that the Convention adjo Ourn. On which motion Mr. MITCHELL demnanded the seas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 51, nays 42, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Licking, Chamnbers, Chaney, Clarke Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Hamilton, Henderson, Holt, Hunit, Jones, King. Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Mc(,ormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Perkins, Quigliy, Reemelin, Roll, Scott Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Stanberv, Stidger, Strulale, Taylor, Townshend, Vance of Butler, War. ren, Williams, Worthington, and President-51. NAYs —Me.ssrs. Archbold, Burnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Brown of Athens, Case of Lick latg, Collingg, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Hard, Hawkins, Hootman, Horton, Humphreville, Hunter, Kirkwood, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Raniney, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Warren, Stanton, Stebbiis, Stilwell, Stickney, Swift, Thompson, of Stark, Way, Wilson, and Woodbury-42. So the motion prevailed and the Convention adjourned. ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-FOURRTH DAY. SATURDAY, March 8, 1851. 9 O'CLOCK, A. M. Th e C onvention met pursuant t o adjournment Mr. STILWELL asked and obtained leave of ab sence for himself and Mr. THoMPsoN, of Stark, during the remaining sessions of the Convention. Mr. STANTON. Mr. President, I voted yesterday against striking out the secon d secti on of the report on Finance and Taxation. I did no t vote against striking out becaus e I was in favor of the se ction as it s tood. On the c ontrary, I was entirely opposed to it, and intended to put myself right on tile record, by voting against th e entir e r eport. But as th e redort was recommitted without a dire ct vot e upon its aaoi tion, my vote placed me in a false position upon t he re ord. I therefore wish to change my vote, and vote for striking out the section. The PRESIDENT. The gentleman voted in the negative, and desired to vote in the affirmative. As the vote, however, on striking out the section was a tie, under the rules leave cannot be granted to change the result. Mr. RANNEY, from the standing committee on Revision, reported back the article on the Executive Department, as follows, to wit: ARTICLE III. EXECUTIVE. SEcrioN 1. The Executive Department shall consist of a Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, Auditor, Treasurer, and an Attorney General, who shall be chosen by the electors of the State on the second Tuesday of October, and at the places of voting for members of the General Assembly. SEc. 2. The Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, Treasurer, and Attorney General, shall hold their offices for two years; and the Auditor for four years. Their terms of office shall commence on the second Monday of Jannary next after their The question then being on the adoption of the resolution, Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being, shall the main quastion be now put? it was agreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the res olution, Mr. HAWKINS demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 67, nays l4 -as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Andrews, Archbold, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preb!e, Bates, Brown of Athens, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Collings. Cook, Curry, Dorsey, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geaugart,H olt n, Hoo tman, Horton, Hunt, K irkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mason, Mitchell, Morris, McCloud, Norris, Orton, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stilwell, Stickney, Struble, Thompson of Stark, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury, Worthington, and President-67. NAYS-.Messrs. Brown of Carroll, Ewingy, Gillett, Hawkins, Hunter, Jones, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, I 81-34 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATESATURDAY, MARCH 8. section, and continue until their successors are elect dd and qualified. SEo. 3 The returns of every election for the officers named in the foregoing section, shall be sealed up a nd transmittd t to the seat of government, by the returning officers, dir ec ted to the President of the S enate, who, during the first week of the session, shall open and publish them, and declare the result, in the presence of a majority of the members of ea c h hous e of the G eneral Assembly Te orson having the highest number of votes shall be declared duly elected; but if any two or more shall be highest, and equal in votes, for the sam e office, one of them shall ie chosen by the joint vote of both houses. SEC. 4 Shiould ther e b e no s essi on of the Gener al Assembly in January next after an election for any yfs the officers aforesaid, the return of such election si hall b e mad e to th e Sec retar y of State, an d opened, and the result declared by the Governor, in such m an ner as may be provide d by law. Szo. 5. The supreme executive power of this State shall be vested in the Governor. SEC. 6. He mnay require information, in writing, from the officer s ill the executive department, upon dnl subjec t relating to the duties of their respective posefo; and s hall se e that the laws are faithfully executed. Scs. 7. H]e shall commun icate at every session, by message, to the General Assembl y, the condition of t he S tate, and recomnd d such measures as he shall deem expedient. Sma. 8. He may, on extraordinary occasions, con vene the General Assemby by proclamation, and dhall stat e to both louses, when assembled, the pur p ose for which they have been convened. SEC. 9. In case of disagreement between the two h o uses, in respect to the time of adjournment, he shall have power to adjourn the General Assembly to such time as he may think proper, bul t not beyond the reg ula r meetings thereof. SErc. 10. He shall be Commander in chief of the milit ary a nd naval forces of the State, except when thpie shall be called into s ervice of the United States. Sna. 11.a He shall have power, after conviction, to grant repri eves, commutations and pardon s, for all &imes and offe nces, except t reaso n and cases of impeachment, upo n such conditions as he may think proper, subject however to such regulations as to e manner o f a pplyin g for pardons, as may be pred scribed by law. Upon conviction for treason, he may suspend the exec ution of th e sentence, and report the tse to th e General Assembly, at its next meeting, wet he en A em l d ithe General Assebly shall either pardon, com mut e the sientence, direct its execution, or grant a fur tier rep r ieve. He shall communicate to the General Assembly, at every regular session, each case of reprieve, commutation, or pardon granted, stating the name and crime of the convict; the sentence, its date, and the date of the commutation, pardon, or reprieve, with his reasons therefor. SFec. 12. There shall be a seal of the State, which shall be kept by the Governor, and used by him officially; and shall be called "the great seal of the State if O~hio." vS~.. 13. All grants and commissions shall be issued in the name and b~y the authority of the. State of Ohio; sealed with the great seal; sipdred by the GovGrnor, and countersigned by the Secretary of State. Srec. 14.:No member of Congress, or other person holding office under the authority of this State, or of the United States, shall execute the office of Governor, ecept as herein provided. SJ~.. 15. In case of death, impeachment, resigna — ffon, removal, or other disability of the Governlor, I the powers and duties of the office for the residue of the term, or until he shall be acquitted, or the disa bility removed, shall devolve upon the Lieutenant Governor. Srec. 16. The Lieutenant Governor shall be Prei-. dent of the Senate, but shall vote only when the Senate is equally divided; and in case of his ab sence, or impeachment, or when he shall exercise the office of Governor, the Senate shall choose a Preaideet pro tempore. SEC. 17. If the Lieutenant Governor, while exaecu ting the office of Governor, shall be impeached, dis placed, resign, ot die, or othe rwise bec ome in capable of perfor ming the duties of th dye office, the President of the Senate shall a ct a s Governor until t he vacancyo is filled, or the disa bility removed; and if the Presideat of the Senate, for a ny of the above ecauses, shar l be rendered incapable of Derforming the duties pertain. ing to the offic e of Governor, the same shall devolve upon the Spe aker of t he Hous e of R epresentatives. Sze. 18. Should the office of Auditor, Trepurer., Secretary, or Attorney General, become vacant, for any of the causes specified in the twelfth section.of this article, the Governor shall fill the vacancy until the disability is removed, or a successor is elected and qualified. Every such vacancy shall be filled by elec tion, at the first general election that occurs more tha thirty days after it shall have happened; and the per son chosen shadl hold the office; for the full term fixed in the second section of this article. SEC. 19. The officers mentioned in this artile,, shall, at stated times, receive for their services a com pensation to be established by law, which shall neither be increased or diminished during the period for which they shall have been elected. SEc. 20. The officers of the Executive Department, and of the public State Institutions, shall, at least fives days preceding each regular session of the General Assembly, severally report to the Governor, who shall transmit such reports, with his message, to the Gen eral Assembly. The question then being, "shall the Article be now enrollesd," Mr. REEMELIN moved to take up the Article foe amendment, which was disagreed to. The question then being, "shall the Article be nowB enrolled," it was agreed to. The Convention then took up the Article on the Judiciary, as reported back by the committee on Rev"xion, Arrangement and Enrollment. ARTICLE IV. JUDICIAL. SizCrION I. The Judicial power of the State shat! be vested in a Supreme Court, in District Courts, Courts of Common Pleas, Courts of Probate, Justices of the Peace, and in such other Courts, inferior to the Supreme Court, in one or more counties, as the General Assembly may, from time to time, establish. SEC 2. The Supreme Court shall consist of five Judges, a majority of whom shall be necessary to form a quorum, or to pronounce a decision. It shall have original jurisdiction in quo warranto, mandamus, habeas corpus, and procedendo, and such appellate jurnsdiction as may be provided by law. It shadl hold at least one term in each year, at the seat of governmnent, anld such other terms, at the seat of government or elsewhere, as may be provided by law. The Judges of the Supreme Court shall be elected, by the electors of the State at large. Src. 3. The State shall be divided into nine Cornmon Pleas districts, of which the county of Hamite{ shall constitute one, of compact territory, and bounde/ by county lines; and each of said districts, consisting 83S 54 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCH 8. Mr. McCORMICK demanded the yeas and naysp which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 47, nays 43.as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill, Cams of Licking, Chaney, Clark, Curry, Dorsey, Farr, Gray0, Greene of Defialnce, Hamilton, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Jones, King, Kirkwood, Larwill, Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Riddle, Roll, Smith of Wyandot Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Swift, Towun hend, Wilson, Wo-odbury, and President-47. NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont o mery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Bliekensderf, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings Cook, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Forbes,. Gillett, Graham, Green of Ross,Gregg, Groesbeck,Harlan,Hitchcockof Geauga Horton, Larsh, Lawrence, Leadbetter, Mason, Mow head, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Ranxney, Reemelin, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Smith ofWarren, Stanbery, Swan, Taylor, Vance of Butlee, f/ay, and Williams —43. So the motion to reconsider was agreed to. The question then being on inserting in section after the word "elected," the words "for an entire term." Mr. WOODBURY moved to perfect the words toiw inserted, by striking out the words "an entire," and insert in lieu thereof, the words "the residue of the unexpired." Mr. MITCHELL, demanded a division. The question then being on striking out the vexd& "an entire." Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous quested The question then being "shall the main questis be now put," it was agreed to. The question then being on striking out the worde "an entire." Mr. GREEN of Ross, d emanded the yreas and na which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 51, nays t,t as follows: YeAs-Messrs. Archbold, Blair, Cahill. Case of Llcklgm Chaney, Clark, Ewart, Farr, Gray, GIreeie of Defiatee, Gregn Hamilton, Hena derso n, Hol mes t,Hol t, Hootm an, Humphre. ville, Hunt, Hntter, Jones King, Kirkwood, L arsh. arsil Leech, Lidey, Loudon, Mabio n, Mitchell, McCo rmick, Nor iiq -, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers. Smit h o f Wteandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidgeo Struble, Sw ift, Taylor, Townshend,Williams, Wilson,Wosa bury, W'orthington a nd d'resident-5I. 2As —Messrs Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mentgomer, Barnetttof Preble, Bennett, Blickensderfe:-, Brown of Carroll, Clambers, Collings, Cook, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Greenl of Ross, Groesbeck, Hard, Harlan, H-w-is, Hi tchc ock e Geauga, Horton, Lawrence, Mason, Morehead, Morris, Mc Cloud, Nash, Otis, Peck, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Swan, ama Vance of Butler-37. The question then being on agreeing to the amendment proposed by Mr. WOODBURY, it was agmee to. The question then being on agreeing to the section, as amended, it was agreed to. SEc. 13. In case the office of any Judge shall become vacant before the expiration of the regular term for which he was elected, the vacancy shall be filled by appointment by the (Governor, until a successor is elected and qualified, and such successor shall be elected for the residue of the unexpiored term, at the firs annual election that occurs more than thirty days after the vacancyr shall have happened. SEX. 14. The judges of the supreme court, and if the cour t of common pleas, shall, at stated times, receive for their services such compensation as may be provided by law, which shall not be diminished or mncreased during their term of office, but they shall be-receive no fees~ or perquisites, nor hold'aujy otl~: Of: three or more counties, shall be subdivided into three parts, of compact territory, bounded by county lines, and as nearly equal in population as practicable, in each of wh ich one Judge of the Court of Common Pleas for sai d district, and residing therein, sh all be eected- by the elector s of sai d subdivision. Cour ts of Comnon Pleas shall be held, b one or mor e of these Judges, in every c ounty of the d istrict, as often as may be provided by law, and more than on e C ourt or sitting thereof may be held at th e same time in each district. SEC. 4. Tyhe jurisdiction of the Courts of Commo n Pleas, and of the Judges thereof, shall be fixed by law. SEC. 5. District Courts shall be composed of the Judges of the Court of Common Pleas of the a respect ive districts; and- on e of the Judges of the Supreme C our t, any three of whom shall be a quorum, and sh all an held in each county therei n, at le ast one in each year; but if it shall b e f ound expedient to hold such Court annually, in each count y of any district, the G eneral A ssembly may, for such d istrict, provide that said Court shall hold at least three annual sessions therein, in not less than three places: Provided, that the Ge ner al Assembly may, by law, aut horize the Jtudges of each district to fix the tim es of holding the C ourts t herein. SEXc. 6. The District Court s hall have like original jurisdiction with the Supreme Court, and such appelate jurisdic tion as may beprovided by law. Soc. 7. Th ere shall be established, in each county, Probat e Cour t, w hich shall be a Court of record, open at all times, and hiolden by one Judge, elected by th e vo ters of the county, who s hall hold his office for thi term of three years, and shall receive such com. pe oisation, payable out of the county treasury, or by fees, or bo th, as shall be provided by law. Sec.. The Pro bate Court shall have jurisdiction in probate and testamentary matter s, the appointment of administrators and guardians, the settlement of the accunts of executors, administrators and guardians, and such jurisdiction in habeas corpus, the issuing of marriage licenises, and for the sale of land by executors, administrators and guardians, and such other jurisdiction, in any county or counties, as may be provided by law. Sgc. 9. A competent number of Justices of the Peace shall be elected, by the electors in each town ship in the several counties. Their term of office shall bs three years, and their powers and duties shall be regulated by law. SEC. 10. All Judges, other than those provided for in this Constitution, shall be elected by the electors of the judicial district for which they may be created, but sot for a longer term of office than five years. SErc. 11. The Judges of the Supreme Court shall, immediately after the first election under this Oonistitution, be classified by lot, so that one shall hold for the term of one year, one for two two years, one for three years, one for four years, an,l one for five years; and, at all subsequent elections, the term of each of said Judges shall be for five years. SEe. 12. The Judges of the Courts of Common Pleas shall, while in office, reside in the district, for Which they are elected; and their term of office shall be for five years. XMr. LARWVILL movedl to reconsider the vote by which theC~onventton agreedto insert in section 13, of -the article on the Judiciary, the following words, 'qfieor an entire term."' Mr. WOODBURY rmoved the previous question. The question then being "sshall the main question be now put," it was agreed to. The question then being on the:motion to recons"~er. ",a. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATE' —SATURDAY, MARC8I S. offie of profit or trust, under the authority of this obtained, or to repay the debts so contracted, and to Sats, or the United States. All votes for either of no other purpose whatever. t:,,i., for any elective office, except a judicial office, SEc. 2. In addition to the above limited power, utinLr the a uthliority of this State, given by the General the State may contract debts to repel invasionll, su Assembly or the people, shall be void. press insurrection, defend the State in war, or to r: SEc. 1a. The General Assembly may increase or dieem the present outstanding indebtedness of the diminish the number of the judges of the supreme' State; but the money arising from the contracting of court, the number of the districts of the court of corm- such debts shall.te applied to the purpose for which mon pleas, the number of judges in any district, it was raised, or to repay such d.bts, and to no other chainge the districts, or the sub-divisions thereof, or purpose whatever; and all debts, incurred to redeera establish other courts, whenever two-thirds of the the present outstanding indebtedness of the Stat member., elected to each House shall concurtherein;but shall be so contracted as to be payable oy the sinking no such change, addition, or diminution, shall vacate fund hereinafter provided for, as the same shall accu the office of any judge. mulate. Sec. 16. There shall be elected in each county, by SEC. 3. Except the debts above specified in sea the electors thereof, one clerk of the court of common' tions one and two of this article, no debt whatever pleas, who shall hold his office for the term of three! shall be created by, or on behalf of, the State. years, and until his successor shall be elected and SEC. 4. The credit of the State shall not, in any qualified. He shall, by virtue of his office, be clerk manner, be given or loaned to, or in aid of, any inde: of all other courts of record held therein; but the vidual, association, or corporation whatever; nor shal General Assembly may provide by law for the election the State ever hereafter become a joint owner or stock of a clerk, with a like term of office, for each or any holder in any company or association in this State, or other of the courts of record, and mllay authorize the: elsewhere, formed for any purpose whatever judge of the probate court to perform the duties of SEC. 5. The State shall never assume the debts of clerk for his court, under such regulations as may be any county, city, town, or township, or of any cor directed by law. Clerks of courts shall be remova- poration whatever, unless such debt shall have been ble for such cause. and in such manner, as shall be created to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, or de prescribed by law. fend the State, in war. Snc. 17. Judges may be removed from office by!SEC. 6. The General Assembly shall never authorconcurrent resolution of both Houses of the General ize any county, city, town, or township, by vote of its Assembly, if two-thirds of the members elected to each citizens, or otherwise, to become a stockholder in any House concur therein; but no such removal shall be joint stock company, corporation, orassociation whatmade, except upon complaint, the substance of which ever; or to raise money for, or loan its credit to, or shall be entered on the journal, nor until the parly in aid of, any such company, corporation, or associacharged shall has e notice thereof, and an opportunity tion. to be heard. SEC. 7. The faith of the State being pledgedfor SEC. 18. The several judges of the supreme court, the payment of its public debt, in order tolprovide of the common pleas, and of such other courts as may therefor, there shall be created a sinking fund, which be created, shall, respectively have and exercise such shall be sufficient to pay the accruing interest onl such power and jurisdiction, at chambers or otherwise, as debt, and, annually, to reduce the principal thereof, may be directed by law. by a sum not less than one hundred thousand dollars, SE:c. 19. The General Assembly may establish increased yearly, and each and every year, by comcourts of conciliation, and prescribe their powers and pounding at the rate of six per cent. per annum. The duties, but such courts shall not render final judgment said sinking fund shall consist of the net annual inin any case except upon submission, by the parties of come of the public works and stocks owned by the the matter in dispute, and their agreement to abide State, of any other funds or resources that are or may suchjudgment. be provided by law, and of such further sum, to b SEc. 20. The style of all process shall be "The raised by taxation, as may be required for the puirState of Ohio;" all prosecutions shall be carried on in pose aforesaid. the name andby the authority of the State of Ohio;i SEC. 8. The Auditor of State-; Secretary of State and all indictments shall conclude, "against the peace and Attorney General are hereby created a board of and dignity of the State of Ohsio." ners, to be styled "the Commissioners of the The question then being "shall the article be en- Sinking Fund." rolled." SeC. 9. The commissioners of the sinking fund Mr. NASH moved, that the article be taken up for! shall, immediately preceding each regular session of the purpose of amendment, which was disagreed to. the General Assembly, make an estimate of the pro 1 he question then being "shall the article be now bable amount of the fund provided for in the seventh enrolled, it was agreed to. section of this article; from all sources except from The Convention then took up the article "on Pub- taxation, and report the same, together with all their lic Debts and Public Works," as reported back by proceedings relative to said fund and the public debt the committee on Revision, Arrangement, and El- to the Governor, who shall transmit the same with rollment, as follows, to wit: his regular message, to the General Assembly; and ARTICLE VIII. the General Assembly shall make all: necssary pro vision for raising and disbursing said sinkiihg fund, ruBL~aaic DEBTS AND won~in pursuance of the provisions of this article. 3Sa. 1. The State may contract debts, to supply. Sec. 10. It shall be the duty of the said Commi> casual deficits or failures in revenues, or to meet ex- sioners faithfully to apply said fund, together with all penses not otherwise provided for; but the aggregate moneys that mac' be by the General Assembly appris amount of such debts, direct and contingent, whether printed to that object, to the payment of the interest contracted by virtue of one or more acts of the Gen- as it becomes due, and the redemption of the princecral Assembly, or at different periods of time, shall pal of the public debt of the State, except only tls never exceed seven hundred and fifty thousand dol- school and trust funds held by the State. lars; aud the money arising from the creation of such SEc. 11. The said commissioners shall, semi-annudebts shall be applied to the purpose for which it was ally, make a full and detailed report of their proceed. 83-71 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCH 8. is SEc. 7. The commissioners of counties, the trus tees of townships and similar boards shall have such power of local taxation for police purposes as may be prescr-ibed by law. o be question then being, "shall the Article be now enrolled?", Mr. REEMELIN moved that the Article be taken up for the purpose of amendment or recommitment, whiclh was agreed to. Mr. GROESBECK moved to add as an additional section, the following: "Src. -. The General Assembly shall provide for the organization of cities, and incorporated villages, by general laws, and restrict their power of taxation, assessment, borrowing money, contracting debts and loaning their credit, so as to prevent abuses is assessment and contracting debts by such municipal corporation;" which was agreed to. The question then being, "shall the Article be now enrolled?" it was agreed to. The Convention then took up the Article on Jurisprudence as reported back by the committee on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment, as follows, to wit: ingsto the Governor, who shall immediately eau, the/same to be published, and shall also comniunica! the same to the General Assembly forthwith, if it l in -esion, and, if not, then at its first session aft such report shall be made. SEc. 12. So long as this State shall have publi works, which require superintendence, there shall b a Board of Public Works, to consist of three men bcrs, who shall be elected by the people at the firs general election after tne adoption of -this Constitt tion; one for the term of one year, one for the term c two years, and one for the term of three years; an onle membe r of said Board shall be elected annually thereafter, who shall hold his office for three years. SEC. 13. The powers and duties of saidw Board Public Works, and its s everal,embers, and tlhei Gompensa tion, shall be such as now are, or may b i scribed by law. The question then being, "shal l the Article b e en rolled?" M r. SAWYER m oved to tak e up the Article for the purpose of amend ment or recommitment. Oill which moti on Mr. MANON d emanded the yeas and iays, which w ere ordered, and resulted, yeas 39 nays 5i), as follows: YEMessrs. Andrews, Barnet ofMontgomery Blair, Chaney, Clark, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Forbes G raham, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Holmes, Hunt King, Kirkwood, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Nash, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Sawyer, comtt of Auglaize, S ellers, Stebbins, Stickney Stidger, Struble, Taylor, Townshend, Warren, Williamis, Worthiilgton, and President-39. WANys —Messrs. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Florence, Gillett, Green of Ross, hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Henderson, IHitelccock of Geauga, Horton, Humphre. ville, 1tunter, Johnson, Jones, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill.Leech, Mlahoui, Alasoni,Mitchell, Morehead, Motris, i9lcCloud, McCoriinick, lRainiey, lieemelin, Rid die, Roll, Smith of Highilanid, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyaiidot, Stallbery, Stanton, Swift. Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, and Woodbury-50.' So the motion was disagreed to. The Convention then took up the Article on Coun. ty and Township organizations as reported back by the committee oni Revision, Arraingemuenlt and Enirollmeet, as follows, to-wit: ARTICLE XIV. JURISPRUDENCE. SECa. 1. The General Assembly, at its first session after the adoption of this constitution, shall provide for the appointment of three commissioners, and prescribe their tenure of office, compensation, and the mode of filling vacancies in said commission. SEC. 2. The said Commissioners shall revise, reform, simplify, and abridge, the practice, pleadings, f o r ms, a nd proceedings of the courts of record of this State;, and. as far as practicable and expedient, shall provide for the abolition of the distinct forms of action at law, now in use, and for the administration of justice by a uniform mode of proceeding, without reference to any distinction between law and equity. SEc. 3. The proceedings of the commissioners shall, from time to time, be reported to the General Assembly, and be subject to the action of that body. The question then being, "shall the Article be now enrolled?" it was agreed to. The Convention then took up the Article on the Elective Franchise, as reported back by the committee on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment, as foxlows, to-wit: ARTICLE V. ELEOT1IY FRANCHISE. Src. 1. Every white male citizen of the United States, of the age of twenty-one years, who shall have been a resident of the State one year next preceding the election, and of the county, township, or ard, in -which hel resides, such time as may be provided by law, shlall have the qualifications of an elector, andi be entitled to a vote at all elections. SEc. 2. All elections shall be by ballot. SEc. 3. Electors, during their attendance at elections, and in going to and returning therefrom, shall be privileged from arrests in all cases, except treason, felony, and breach of the peace. SECa. 4. The General Assembly shall have power to exclude from the privilege of voting, or of being eligible to ofice, any person convicted of bribery, perjuro, or other infamous crime. brc. 5. No person in the Military, Naval, or M3arine service of the United States, shall} by being stationed in any garrison, or military, or naval station, within the State, be considered a resident of this S tate. Sec. 6. No idiot, or insane person. shall be entitled to the privileges of an eleetor. ARTICLE X. COUNTY AND TOWNSHIP ORGANIZATIONS. SEC. 1. The General Assembly shall provide, by law, for the election of such county andc township of ficers as may be necessary. SLc. 2. (coujty officers shall be elected on the seconid Tuesday of Ociober, until otherwi~-e directed by law, by the qualified electors of each counlty, in such manner, and for such terlm, not exceeding three years, as tay be provided by law. Sec.o. N.Io person shall be eligible to the office cf Sheriff, or County Treasur-er, for Imiore than four years, in any period of six ycars. SLc. 4. Town,ship officers shall be elected on the first'onday of April, aniually, by the qualified ,ytlectors of their respective town.-sips, ad shall hold lheir offices for one year from the Molday next sucseeding their election, and antil their successors are 7uali~fie:d. S'c. 5. No money shall be drawn from any county .r Iaownship treasury, excipt by authority of law. S,tc. 6. J uttices of the peace', and county and town.ilip officers, maay be remosved ill such manner and for ,,Ieh -causes as khall be prescribed by law. I s i 838 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCH 8. the question then being, "shall the Article be now Licking, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, e.rolled?" it was,agree o.'Ewing, Forbes, Graham, Greene of l)efiance, Groesbeck, ~enroled" it was agreed to. Hard, Hawklins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hootman, Hor The Convention then took up the Article on Amend- ton,Humphreville, Hunter, Kirlkwood, Larsh, Larwill, Lldey, meats as reported back by the committee on Revision, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Otis, Patterson, A-rangement and Enrollment, a., follows, to-wit: Ranney, Sawyer, Scott of Augluize, Sellers, Smith of War. ARTICLET XI. Xren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, ~ARTICLEl XI. *Struble, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Townshend, Warren, Ways AMFINDMENTS. Woodbury and President-52. Sxc. 1. Either branch of the General Assembly So the motion to reconsider was.disagreed to. may propose amendments to this Constitution, and if Mi. LOUDON, from the standing committee on Fithe same shall be agreed to by three-fifths of the mem- nance and Taxation, to which had been recommitted bers elected to each House, such proposed amend- Report, Number Two, on that subject, reported the ments shall be entered on the journals, with the yeas same back with sundry amendments. and nays, and shall be published in at least one news- The question being on agreeing to the first amendpaper in each county of the State where a newspaper ment, to wit: i.s published, for six months preceding the next elec- Section two, after the word "companies," where it tion for Senators and Representatives, at which time occurs the first time, insert the words' "not otherwise the same shall be submitted to the electors, for their provided for in this constitution." approval or rejection; and if a majority of the elec- Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geatga moved that the Retors, voting at such election, shall adopt such amend- port and peuding amendments be laid on th9 table. ments, the same shall become a part of the Constitu- On which motion, tion. When more than one amendment shall be sub- Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which mnitted at the same time, they shall be so submitted, were ordered, and resulted-yeas 38, nays 48, as folas to enable the electors to vote on each amendment lows: separately. Yzas-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, SEc. 2. Whenever two-thirds of the members, Barnett of Preble, Bites, Bennett, Blickensderfer. Brown elected to each branch of the General Assembly, shall of Carroll,Chambers Collings,Cook, Curry, itwart, Florence, think it necessary to call a Convention, to revise Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan,.Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, Larsh, Manon. Moreamend, or change this Constitution, they shall rec- head, Morris, McCloud, Nash, Otis, Peck,Scott of Iarrison, eommend to the electors to vote,.at the next election Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, for members to the General Assembly, for oI against Vance of Butler and Worthlington-38. a Convention; and if a majority of all the electors, NAYs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Dorsey, Ewvoting at said election, shall have voted for a Con- ing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Grege, Groesbeck', Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, 1ootma~n, Huimpbreytile, vention, the General Assembly shall, at their next ses- Hero, Lmwes, oLarwll, L eech, Leadbette,, aion prvide byaw, or allng te sme. he on-Jones', Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbettes, sion, provide, bylaw, for calling the same. The Con- Lidey, Loudon,. Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Patterson, vention shall consist of as many members as the Quigley, Ranney, Rteemelin, Rliddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of House of Representatives, who shall be chosen in the Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, same manner, and shall meet within three months af- Struble. Swau, Swift, Tay fr, Towushend, Warren, Way, same manner, and shall meet within three months af- WXrouodbury and PresidenLt-49. ter their election for the purpose aforesaid. Woodury and Pcsidet-49. SE- 3 At the general eection, to be held in the Son the motion to lay on thetable was disagreed to. Sac. 3. At the gnralelctio,t ehedi h year one thousand eight hundred and se vent-one, The question then being on agreeing to the first amendment: and in each twentieth year thereafter, th e qu aestio n, Mr. HUIMPHREVILLE moved the previous ques 4'Shail there be a Convention to revise, alter or amend M the Constitution," shall be submitted to the electors tion. The question then beiing —Shall the m.ain question of th e State; and, in case a majority of all the elec The question then being-Shall te ai questi tors, voting at such election, shall decide in favor of be now put? voting ~~~~~~~~Mr. GRAY moved a call of the Convention, and a Convention, the General Assembly, at its next ses- Mr. GRAY moved a call of the Convention, and sion, shall provide, by law, for the election of dele- being ordered, Messrs. Archbold, Browi of Athens, gates and the assembling of such Convention, as is Case of Hocking, Cutler. Gillett, Hitchcock of Cuyaprovided in the preceding section; but no amendment hoga, Hunt, Kennon, King., Perkins, Thompson of of this Constitution, agreed upon by any Conventipn Shelby and Vance of Champaign were found absent. assembled in pursuance of this article, shall take ef- The question then being-Shall the main question fect, until the same shall have been submitted to the be now put? electors of the State, and adopted by a majority of Mr. CASE of Licking demanded the ye-s and nay", those voting thereon. which were ordered, and resulted —.yess 45, nays 48, The question then being, "shlall the Article be now ae follows: enrolled?" V zAs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney,Clark, Dorsey, Ewing, Mr. REEMELIN m ed to take -up the Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Henderson, Mr. REEMELIN moved to take up the Article for HIe,Hl,HomnHmheil,Jhsn o of th amenmentor reommitent,H,,lmes, Bolt, Hootman, Humphreyile, Johnson, Jonest the purpose the he amendme nt or recommitment, Kling, Kirkwood, Larwill Leadbetter, Lidley, London, Mitchwhich was disagreed to. ell, Norris, Orton, t'atterson, Quigley, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, The questioni then being, "shall the Article be now Scott of Auglaize, Sellers Smith of Wyanldot, Stebbins, ~en~rolled," it was areed to. Stickney, Struble, Swift, Iaylor,'Iownsheld, Way, Wilson, enrollved t Woodbury, and President —5. Mr. STANBERT moved to reconsider the vote, by NA,ysMessrs. And ews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery which the Article on the Elective Franchise was or Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett Blickensderfer, Brown of lered to be enrolled. Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, On which motion Ewart, Florence, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hamiltoln, Mr. STANBE:RY- demanded the yea; anid nays, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Horton, Hunter, which.ere ordered, and resulted, yeas 29, nays 52, Larsb, Lawrence, Leech, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, whilchl were ordered, ande resulted, yea*,;9, nays 52, McClo d, McCormick, tash, Otis, Peck, Reemelin, Scott of as follows: Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warien, Stanbery, YE rs —Messrs. Barhee Barnet of Montgomery, Buickets Stanton, Stidger, Swan, Vance of Butler, Warren, Williams 4erfer Brown of Carroll. Chambers, Farr, Florence, G'y, and Worthington-48. Green of Ross, Gregg, Harlan, Henderson, Holmes, Jones, So the demand for the previous question was not Lawrence, Leech, Manon, McCloud, Nash,:~orris, Peck, sustained. Ouigley, Reemelin, Riddle. Roll, Smith of Highland, Stan- O bery, Vance of Butler and Worthington —29. On motion of Mr. CASE of Ltcking, NAYS-Messrs. Barnett of Preble, Blair, Cahill, Case of - The Convention took a recess. 839 -1 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCso 8. ..., AFTERNOON SESSION. Mr. SAWYER movedthit theReportbecommitted 2/2 O'CLOCK, P. M. to a Select Comnmittee of One. The question pending being on agreeing to the first Mr. SMITH of Wyandot, moved the previous ques amendment, to wit: in section 2, after the word corn- tion.. "panics" where it occurs the second time, insert the The question then being, shall the main questi,o words "not otherwise provided for in this constitu- be now put? tion," it wyeas agreed to.nays, which The question then being on the secondamendment being ordered, resulted-yeas 4U, nays 54, as fol to wit: striking out the following section:' los: SE 3 The General Assebly shall roie by YEAS-Messrs. Blair, Cabill, Chaney, Clark, Dor "SEo. 3. bhe General Assem~bly shall provide by sey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of De'fiance, Gregg, law for taxing the property, capital, money, credits ey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance Gregg, and effects of all bankers and banks now or hereafter ard, Hederson, Holmes, Hootman Iuprevile, existing in this State, so that the same shall bear a Jones, King, Lawrence, Larwill, Leadbetter London, I ~~~~~~~~~~~~Mitchell, Norris, Ortoni, Patterson,Qi g byem burthen of taxation equal to that imposed upon the tchell, Norri, Orton, Patterson Quigla, y eem sameamount of property, capital, moneys, credits and ela Riddle, Roll, Scottof AuglaJre Sellers,Snith effects~ belonging to individuals.' of Wyandot, Stebbins. Stickney, Strpble, Townshend, -effects. beloniging to'individuals.' And inserlting inrl lieu thereof the following: Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-40 NAYS —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, B~arnet of M1ont " T h e General Assembly shall provide by law for NAYSMessrs. Andrews, Barbee Bnne Bi of Mont taxing all notes and bills discounted or purchas ed a o, Baefr, Br n o fett Blickengs moneys loaned, and all other property, effects, or dues, i, Brown of Caoll Case of Hocking (ase of of whatever description, (without deduction,) of al Lickig, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry Ewart banks now existing or hereafter created, so that al Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, bans nw eistngor erefte cratd, o tat llGroesbfc-k, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock property employed in banking, shali always bear a o GebEk, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock ')urthen of taxatio~n equal to that impotetl o f Geauga, Horton, Hunt, Huiiter, Kirkwood, Larsh, re of taxatio equal o that imposed othe Lidey, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, property of itidividuials."' Mr STANTON. Mr. President: o I do notintend McCormick, Nash, Otis, Peek, Perkins, Sawyer, Scott Mr. STANTON. Mr. President: I do not intend of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, that any gentleman shall vote under a iisapprehen - ane, Smton ig an, Thor e sion of my position on this question. The amnend- Stanber0, Stan ton, Stidger, Swan, Tayr, ~anee of .ion of.ypoiiononthi que n Te a Butler, Warren, Williams and Worthington-54. ment now under consideration, professes to tax exist- So the demad fo r the previous question was not img banks b' a rule different from that prescribed in sustained. their charters. This is to me an insuperable objection susthned. to voting for the Report. It has been argued here The question then being on the motion to commit time and again, and multitudes of authorities quoted t select committee i,f One, in its support that a charter is a contract that can- Mr. MITCHELL demanded the yeas and nays, not be atetred or repealed I entertain that opinio whch were ordered and resultedyeas 56, ays 4, rePea~'.~ as follows: beyond any doubt. I will not surrender this consti- YEAS-Mssrs. Andrews, arbee, Brnet of Mot tutional question for any considleration of a greater or Yras-Me ssrs. Andoews, Barbe, Barnet of Montless amount of tax that may be proposed. With me golery, Bariett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Caskensit is not mainly a question of whetlherbanks or stock- derfer, Broun of Carroll. Case of Hocking, Case of obbers shall pay a greater or less amount of ta' Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, C rry, Ewart, jobbers~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ s al py agraerolessaont ft This is to me a matter of secondary importance. It Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, ~bi isto e amater f sconar mpotane. Groesbeck, Hamnilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock is the question of power that I staud upon, and I am of Groesbaucka, Horilton, Humphraviille, H t, Hunter,ock not di.po.ed to surrender. of Geaua, Hrto, Humphreile Hnt, Huter, I think it due to fairness thereforeto say, that what- Kirkwood, Larsh, Manon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, ever- amendments I may vote for, I will not vote for McCloud, McCortnmick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perkins, the Report whilst it contains this pro-ision, which I Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith ,eegard as uncoinstitutional. of W/arren, Stanbery, Stanton, Swan, Swift, Taylor, r~~~~~~~~~~~~~Twi,Iegard VasnceofstButle,Wre,liotnal. The question being on the adoption of the amend- Towslend, Vace of Butler, Warren, Wllias, tment, Woodbury and Worthington-56. Nays —Mlessrs. Bleir, Cahill, Chaney, I>orsey, Ew Mr. HORTON demanded the yeas and nays, which AYS-Messrs. Blir, Cahill, Chaney, rsey, Ewwere ordered and resulted-yeas 76, nays 12, as fol- ing, Farr, F'orbes, Green, of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, evlows: 7,ay2asflHendersot, Holmes, Hootman, Jolnes, Kill,g, Law lo- r Andrws'.BarneofMon y rence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, YEAS-Mssrs. Andre ws, Barnet of Montgomery, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Qaigley, Ranney Barnett of Preble, ar, Blairer, Blickensderfer, Brown oft Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaim, Sellers, Carroll, Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Smith of Wyan(iot, Stebbius, Stickney, Stidger, StruDorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, Florence, Forbes, Gil- ble, Way, Wilson and President-40. lett, G~rabai-n Gray, Greene of Defianlce, Green of. l;ett, Graham, Gray, Greene of Deflace, Green of So the motion to commit to a select committee of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Henderson, One, was agreed to, and Mr. SAWYER appointed :Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Hoolmnan, Horton, said conmmittee. HIumphreville, Hunt, HuLnter, Jones, King, Kirkwood, On miotion of Mr. BENNETT, the conventioi re awrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetteri, London, Man- solved itself ilto a committee of the whole, Mr. HAR-,,. Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCiirmick. Nash, LAN in the Chair, and after some time spent therein ],.~rris, Orton, Patterson, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, the committee rose, and the Chairman reported that It. dle, Roll, Sawver, Scott of Harrison, Scott of Au- the committee had had under consideration Report No. ~:aizet Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren 0,o th e Judicial Department and ha d ins tructed bhim ~mith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stickney', 2re ort th es ame and h one hm Struble, Swift, Taylor, Towushend, Vance of Butler, t port the same back with oiie a'iendment. Warren, Way, Williams, Wilson, Woodbury and Pres The question being on agreeing to the amendm ident-76. Mr. HAWKINS moved the previous question NA~-Me~srs. Bates, Case of Hocking, Cace of TThe questioln then being, "shall the main question Licking, Curry, Hawkins, Lidey, Mason, McCloud, be now puT?" So the dMr. STANTON demanded the yeas and nays, which Otis, Smith of Warren, Stanton and Stidger —12. wee So the amendment ~~~~~wasareeto oe ordered, and resulted —yeas 60, nays 25, as fol 640. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCH 8.. -wan, Horton, Humphreville, Hunt, Hunter, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey,Loudon, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Way, Williams, Woodbury and President-66. NAYvSMessrs. Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Cae of Licking, Curry, Gray, Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Holmes, Johnson, Jones, Larsh, Larwill, Manon, Norris, Otis, Patterson, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Stanton, Stidger, Wilson and Worthington —23. So tie report was passed, and, on motion, was refertreed to the committee on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment. Mr. NORRIS submitted the following, which was agreed to: ResoToed, That the Committee on Revision be instructed to insert the following, as a section in the Article on Corporations. "No right of way shall be appropriated to the use of any corporation until a full compensation therelor be sfirst made in money, irrespective of any benefit or advantage to the owner from any improvement proposed by such corporation; and provided further, the amount of compensation shall be ascertained by a jury of twelve men in a Court of Record, shall be prescribed by law." Mr. LEECH, from the select committee on the subject of Printing, submitted the following: REPORT 0P TqE SELECT COMM*IT'EE ON THE SUBJECT 0O P'RINTiN. The Select Committee on the subject of Printing, to which were referred the resolutions submitted by Mr. RrAMELIXN, in relation to translating the new Constitution into the German language, &c., have had the same under consideration, and now report back the resolutions and |ecommend their addption, with the following amendment: fill the blank in the second resolution with the words, "two members." (signed,) R. LEECH. C. J. ORTON, C. S. HAMILTO N. The question being on agreeing to the recommenda tion of the committee: it was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the resolu. tions, as amended, to wit: Resolved, That Stephan Molitor and J. B. Stallo be and they are hereby appoint ed translators for the purpose of translatrn g the new Cons t itutio n into the German language,tand that said translators furnish to each German paper in the State a correct copy thereof, and also a fai r copy to be depot ited with the English copy. as directed by law. Resolved, That a Select Committee of two be appointed whose du ty it s ha ll be to com pare carefully the translation thus made, and the respective copies thereo f, and that the Se. lect Committee thus appointed, be and the same is he reby au thorized to allow to the translators such compenattion as may be deemed reasonable, not to exceed thirty dollsrs in all and that such allowance be paidout of the fund appropriated to defray the expenses of this Convention, on the ord e r of the President. The resolutions were agreed to, and the president a p point ed Messrs. REEMELIN and BLICKENSiDEtFoua the committee, in accordance with the second reso lutio n. Mr. SAWYER, freem the select committee, to which had been committed the Report of the committee on Finance a nd Taxation, reported t he s am e back with one amendm ent, to w it: Strik e out section two,s and insert in lieu thereof, the following: "Uniform laws shall be passed upon the subject of taz lion, embractng all money s and credits, investments in bonds, stocks. joint stock companieS, or otherwise, and all real and personal property- according to gt true value in money; providled, that burying grounds, public school-houses, ~adl houses usged exclusively for public worship, and property held by the public open to public ulse without any charge therefor, an~d a limited amount of personal property, not e. - ceeding two hundred dollars to any one individual, may -be exempt~from taxation by general law, but the valiue of all property as exempt, shall annually be published as iay be fi a,ts- Messrs. Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preobletli, Bates, Blair, Bickensderfer, Case of Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark. Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Iwart, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, G re ene of-Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawk ins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, SaoImes, Hootman, Humphreville, aHunter, Hunt, Lawrence, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loud on, Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Patters on, P eck, P erkins, Q sigl ey, Randhey, Reemelin, Roll, Sawyer, Sellers, Smith of Wvandot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Townshend, V ance of Butler, Way, Woodbury, Wort hington and President-60. NYts-Messrs. Barbee, Bennett. Browa o of Carroll, Cahill, Curry, Grav, Green of Ross, Hami l ton, Harlan, Horton, Johnson, Jon es, King, Larsh, Larwill, Manon, Mitchell, Mc( loud, Scott of A uglaize, Smith of War ren, Stanton, Stidger,Swan, Williams and Wilson —25. 80 the d e mand for the previous question was suSatined. The question then being on the amendment propo posed by the committee of the Whole, to wit: Inseert the word I Vinton," after the word' Jackson,' in th e s eventh section, It was agreed to The question then being on ordering the report to be Engrossed, it was agreed to. O n motion, t h e rules were suspended, and the Repo rt was read a third time. The question th en being on the passage of the Report: Mr. CURRY moved that the Report be recommitted to the standing committee that reported it. Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being-Shall the mails question be now put? Mr. CURRY demanded the yeas and nays, which %ere ordered, and resulted-yeas 56, nays 36, as fol;ows: YEAS-Messrs. Apdrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer. Brows of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Forbes, Gillett, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hootman, Humphreytile, Hunter, Law rence, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mason, Mitchell, Morehead, Morris, McCormick, Norris, Otis, Patter. son, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Townshend, Vance of But l, Way, Woodbury and President-56. NAYS-Messrs. Barbee, Cahill, Chaney, Collings, Curry, Florence, Graham, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Hamilton, Harlan, Holmes, Horton, Huint, Johnson, Jones, Larsh, Larwli, Leech, Manon, M~Cloud, Nash, Rainniey, Riddlle, Roll, Scott of'Au glaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Stidger, Swan, Williams, Wilson and Wore thington-36. 830 the demand for the previous question was sue tained. The question then being on the passage of the Re port: Mr STANTON demanded the yeasand nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 66, nays 23, as follaws: YEAs. —Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Burnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Colliinas, Cook, Dorsey: Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Green of' Ross. Gregg, Groesbeck, Hard, Henderson, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hoot 8. It-'-I OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARcH 8. Cloud, McCormick, Nash, Peck, Perkins, Reemelln, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of High land, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Swan Swift, Taylor, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren Williams, Woodbury, and Worthington-53. NAYs-l-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey, E ing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman, Hunt, Jones, King Kirkwood, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudoi Manon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Otis, Pdtterso1 Quigley, Ranney, Roll, Scottof Auglaize, Seller Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickneoy, Stidger, St ble, Way, Wil.eon, and President-41. So the amendment was agreed to. The question then being on the passage of the Rie port. Mr. LARWILL demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 55, nays 40, as fl. lows YZAS.-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgemery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Cahill, Case of Lickina, Chambers, Clark, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Florence,Gillett Gray, Gregg, Groesbeck, IHamilton, Hard, Harlaisl Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Humphrevill, Hunt, Hunter, Kirkwood, Lawience, Mason, Moro head, Morris, McCormick, Nash, Orton, Peck, Perkins Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Harrison Smith of Wyandot, Swan Swift, Taylor, Townshend Vance of Bu tler, Warren,Williams, Woodbury,Worth ington and President.-55. NAYS.-Messrs. Barbee, Bates, Blair, Chaney,Ew-in Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Hender. son, Hootman, Horton, Jones. Larsb, Leech, Leadbet. ter, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, McCloud, Otis, Patterson, Quigley, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith ol Highland, Smith of Warren,Stan-bery,Stau" ton, Stebbins, Stickney, Stidger, Struble, Way aad Wilson.-40. So the report was passed. And on motion was referred to the Committee ou Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment. Mr. VANCE of Butler, submitted the followingt "Resolved, That the Committee on Revision be structed to anmend the Proviso in the second section ot athe Report on Finance and Taxation as to add after the word "worship" the words "contributions of pusr ly public charity." Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas and niays, which were ordered and resulted-yeas 64, nays 15, as W. lows: YEAS.-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mon gomery. Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Dorsey, Ewart, Farr, Florence,Gillett; Graham, Gray, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan. Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holmes, Holt, Horton, Humphrevill-e. Hunt, Hiuijter, Jones, Kirkwood, Leadbetter, Loudon, Mason, Morehead, Morris, MoCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Sellers, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot. tanbery, Stanton, Swan, Townshend, Vance of BuC ler, Warren, Way, Williams, Woodbury, Worthinzgton and President. —-64. NAYs.aMnssrs. dlair, Cahill, Ewing,Forbes,Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hootman, King, Larwill, Lidey, Orton, M hcott of Auglaize, Stebbins, Stickney, and tidger.-15. So th~ Resolution was agre~ed to. On1 motion of Mr. RANHEY the Conventlion to up Report numnber two, of the Commuittco on Revisionl, Arrangement and Enrollment as follows, to-wit:. Ioted by law, and all such exemptions shall be subject to modification, alteration or repeal.", Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being-SShail the main question be now put? eMr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 55, nays 36, as fol. lows: Y- As.-Messrs. Andrews,Barbee, Barnet of Mont gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blair, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Chamb ers, Cha -ney, Dorsey, Ewart, Ewing, Farr, F lorence, Gillett, Grah am, Gr oesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Hitchcock of ,Geauga, Holt, Hunt, Hunter, Kirkwood, Lidey, Ma son, Morehead, Morris. McCloud, McCormick, Nash, Norris, Orton, Peck, Perkins, Quigley, Reemelin, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott o f Harriso n, Smith of Wy. arndot, Stanbery, Stnbey n, Stickuy, wa n, Swift, Taylor, Warren, Way, W ilson, WoodburM, Worth ington and President- 55. NAYS.-Messrs. Cahill, Ca se of Licking, Co llings, Cook, Fo rbes. Gray, Gr eene of Defiance, Gr een of Ross, Gregg, Ilarlan Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Hootman, Horton, Pumphreiville Jones, Kin-g, Larsh, Lawrence, Larwill, Leadbetter, Loudon, Manon, Otis, Rannev, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith o f Highlan o, Smith of W arr en, Stidg er, Struble, Townshend, Vanceof Butler, and Williams-36. S o the demand fo r the previous question was sus tained. The qu estion the ein being on agreeing to the amend Hmen t proposed by the committee, Mr. MANON demanded a division. 'rhe question then being first on striking Qut section tWO, Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 52, nays 43 —as fol lows: YrAs.-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Mont gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickens derfer, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, Collinggs, Cook, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Greena of Ross, Groesbedk, Hamilton, Harlan, Hlawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Htolt, Horton, Hun ter, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud, Mc Cormick, Nash, Otis, Peck, Perk ins, Reemel in, Saw yer, Scott of Harrison, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery. Stanton, Swan, Swift, Taylor, Town-shend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Williams Woodbury and Worthington-52. NAtS.-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Henderson, Holmes, Hoetman, Huinphrevi!le, IHunt, Jones. King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Manon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Quigley, Ranney. Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Slick. Bey, Stidger, Struble, Way, Wilson and President -43. So section two was stricken out. The question then being on inserting the amendment proposed by the Select Committee, Mr. SAWYE3Rdemanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered. anld resulted, yeas 53, nays 41 —as fol. YE:AstMessrs.: Andrews, Barbee, Barne~ of Monltgomnery, Barnlett of Preble. Bates, Bennett, Blickensderl~r, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, Coilings, Cook, Ewart, Florenlce, Gillerr, Graham, Gray, Green of Ro~ss Creesbeck, Hamilton. Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, Holt, Hortonl, Hunter, Larsh, l~awrence,; Mason, Morehead, Morris, Me-.r 8 42 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SARURDAY, MARCH B. The question then being on the recommendation-of the committee. Mr. REEMELIN demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted, yeas 55, nays 24,a follows: YRAs-Messrs: Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfoer, Brown of Carrolla, Caill, Chambers, Chaney, Collings, Curry, Ewart, Ewing, Florence, Forbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of Defiance, Green of Ross, Gregg, Groesbeck, Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitch. cock of Geauga, Holt, Horton, Hunt, Kirkwood, Larsh, London, Mason, Morehead, McCloud, Nash, Norris, Otis, Peck, Quigley, Riddle, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, Smith of Wyandot, Stanbery, Stebbins, Stickney, Swan, Townshend, Warren and Worthington-55. NAYS-Messrs. Blair, Clark, Farr, Henderson, Hoot man, Hunter, Jones, King, Larwill, Lidey, Mitchell, Morris, McCormick, Patterson, Ranney, Reemelin, Roll, Sellers, Struble, Vance of Butler, Way, Willisim and Worthington-23. So the recommendation was agreed to. The question then being "shall the articles on "I ucation," "Militia" and "Public Institutions," be sevesally ordered to be enrolled," it was agreed to. Mr. HITOCHCOCK of Geauga moved that report No. 1 on the schedule with the pending amenldmeuw, be taken up, which was agreed to. The question being on agreeing to the first ames ment proposed by the committee, to wit: Strike out sectIon 3, and insert: "The first election for Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Auditor of State, and Attorney General for the State, shall be held on the second Tuesday of October, 1851. The Governor, Auditor and Attorney General in office on the first day of September, 1851, shall hold their'offices until the seeeond Monday of January, 1852, and no longer," which wan agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the second amendment, to wit: Strike out4th section and insert: "The first election for Treasurer and Secretary of State shall be held on the second Tuesday in October, 1852. The Treasurer and Secretary of State in office on the first day of September, 1851, shall hold their offices until the second Monday of January, 1853, and no longer." Mr. SAWYER. There has been a distinct undesstanding that if any of the officers now in place, goes out of office before the expiration of the term for which he was elected-there should be a provision that all should go out. I therefore call upon gentlemen te carry out their pledges. Mr. MITCHELL. Whatpledges? Mr. SAWYER. I understand the insinuations and I tell him, (Mr. MITCHELL,) that I disregard them and every thing coming from that source. I refer simply to the understanding that there should be an equali. ty in the provisions of the new constitution relative to the e xpiration of the terms of those now holding office. Mr. NASH. I thought It was distinctly understood, when the vote was taken, not to have annual cessions of the General Assemlbly for two or three sessions, that the Auditor and Treasurer of State wers to be elected on alternate years, The object of this was solely to promote the public interest. It would seem to be very necessary to so provide that the Auditor and Treasurer should not go out of office at the same time. It is all wrong so to provide that an entire board of public works shall be elected at once, instead of one each year, and grows out of the desire of some gentlemen to make a clean sweep of all the g~~~nted or entrusted to this State, for educational and~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ reigou prpse, halfoevr e reeredinll~e E~-Msss:Anres Brbe,Bane o Mn ARTICLE IX. MIILITIA. Si'. 1. All white male citizens, residents of this State, being eighteen years of age, and under the age of forty-five years, shall be enrolled in the militia, and perform military duty, in such manner, not incompatible with the Coinstitutior. and laws of the United States, as may be prescribed by law. Sac. 2. Majors General, Brigadier Generals, Colo-nels, Lieutenant Colonels, Majors, Captains, and Subdterns, shall be elected by the persons subject to military duty, in their respective districts. SEac. 3. The Governor shall appoint the Adjutant Gene ral, Qu arter Master General, and such other staff officers as may be provide d f or by law. Majors G en. eral, Brigadier Generals, Colonels o r Commandants of Regiments, Battalions or Squadrons, shall severally appoint their staff, and Captains shall appoint their nonmissioned officers and musicians. Sacs. 4. The Governo r shall commission all officers of the line and staff, ranking as such, and shall have power to call forth the Militia, to execute the laws of the,State, to suppress insurrection and repel invasion. SrO. 5. The General Assembly shall provide, by law, for the protection and safe keeping of the public tifis. PUBLIC INSTITU'TIONS. SE~c 1. Institutions for the benefit of the insane, blind, and deaf and dumb, shall always be fostered and supported by the State, and be subject to such regularlens as may be prescribed by the General Assembly. SEa. 2. The directors of the Penitentiary shall x appointed or elected in such nmanner as the General Assembly may direct, and the trustees ol the benevolent and other State institutions, now elected by the General Assembly, and of such other State institutions as may be hereafter created, shall be appointed by the Governor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate; and upon all norminattions made by the Governor, the question shall be taken by yeas and nays, and entered upon the journals of the Sentate. SEC. 3. The Governor shall have power to fill all vacancies that may occur in the offices aforesaid, until Om next session of the General Assembly, and until a successor to his appointeve shall be coonfirmiied and qualffied. The committee on Revision recommended, that the following word "Nor Shall the rights of conscience be in any case interfered with," be stricken out of section E, of the Article on "Education.'" The question pending being on the recommendation Qi the committee. Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The question then being "shall the main question beaow put," it was agreed to. 843 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-SATURDAY, MARCH 8. officers at once. If we had in view solely the welfare c of the State, we should be careful how we mingle the political elements of the State in that confusion which a must be the result of acomplete change in all the of- t ficers of the State at once. I think the resolution of c the gentleman from Auglaize ought to prevail, and t that it is demanded by the public interest, while noth- c Ing but an unnatural appetite for office can be the rea- a son for opposing it. Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize. It is too late now to agree to that resolution, (Mr. SAWYER's.) Mr. CIIANEY. There is so much confusio' here b that not a word can be heard. The PRESIDENT. The convention will please preserve order. a Mr. MITCHELL. In regard to this matter it is obvious that thecommnittee has reported the amendment as it is with the design to make the Auditor and Treas- 1 urer go out on different years. and that was all they had in view so far as I know any thing of their desigs". So far as the resolution is concerned, I hope it will pass. Now for a few of the arguments just eo delivered by the gentleman from Auglaize, (Mr. Saw- YaER,) and the explanations that have been made by the gentleman in regard to pledges and promises. I saw a few curious things this morning at that gentle- 1 man's desk, and heard some singular expressions which excited my apprehensions no little. But I did not fully comprehend their import until the movements concerning the tax report took place some hour or so since. I do not choose now to speak further of what I then heard and saw. It is sufficient to know that this afternoon, at a most critical moment, that gentle- 1 man abandoned his old party friends on a matter of most vital importance. And now I demand to know the reasons for this abandonment of his Democratic position, on the part of the member from Auglaizehow will he account for all his tergiversations here of i late on this and some other subjects? [Cries of "order!" "order!"] Sir, I shall endeavor to keep in order. Sir, I am very glad to know that that gentle-: man's disregard for me, and mine for him, is so cor- dial. I have a very good reason, sir, for eschewing all connection with men who thus desert their friends in the hour of danger and trial. In my school-boy days, I read a fable of two friends, about to set out on a journey through a dan- gerous forest, infested by wild and ferocious beasts, who, apprehending an attack, mutually agreed to assist each other. They had not proceeded far, until i they discovered a bear in great rage pursuing them. One of them-when both were in imminent danger of their lives-betook himself to a tree, leaving his com- g panion to be devoured by the enraged beast. Just such, sir, is the case now manifested between the member from Auglaize and the Democrats Men this floor who have remained true to principle-they have traveled together during five months of the ses- e sion of this Convention, and now, at the last hourthe hour of our greatest danger and trial-the men- a ber from Auglaizedeserts us and leaves us to the tender mercies of the wild beasts surrounding us on the opposite side of this House. The moral of this story is familiar to all. It is something like this: That when you find a man so lost to a sense of honor and duty, as thus to desert his friend in the hour of A peril and distress, never again trust him-neveragain have any confidential intercourse with him. This sir, is not in the letter of the fable, but it is so near it in substance that I hope gentlemen will be able to make the application. Now so far as the gentleman's! disregard of what I may say here or hereafter, is' oncerned, I h av e o nly to say that while thlis body has life and this tongue has utterance, he may rest assured that I shall not cease to warn an honest, true hearted, and confi ding Democracy agains t tam danger of trusting such treacherous friends. It has been the cause of their sad discomfiture on more oo casions than one, and while I live, _;t shall be, as it always has been, my endeavor to save them from such fatal results. Mr. SAWYER. Agreed, agreed. Mr. REEMELIN moved to amend the amendment by striking out the words - and no longer," which was agreed to. The question then being on agreeing to the second amendment as amended, It was agreed to. The question then being on the third amendment, to wit.: Insert in section five, line three, after "1851," toe words: "And the official term of said Judges and Clerks so elected, shall commence on the second Monday of February, 1852," It was agreed to. The question then being on the fourth amendmen4, to wit.: Strike out of section five, line one, these words:. "Members of the Board of Public Works." It was agreed to. The question then being on the fifth amendment, to wit.: Add at the end of section seven, these words: ,,But neither of said Courts shall be continued ab ter the second Monday of February, 1853, and no suit shall be commenced In either of said courts after t! second Monday of February, 1852." It was agreed to. The question then being on the sixth amandmen, to wit.: Add as section sixteen, the following: "Until otherwise provided by law, elections fo Judges and Clerks shall be held and the poll boomb returned, as is provided, for Governor, and the abstract therefrom certified to the Secretary of State, to be by himn opened in the presence of the Governor, who shall declare the result and issue commission to the parties elected;" it was agreed to. The question then being on the seventh amend ment, to wit.: Insert in section six, line three, after "Librarian~e {' And all other officers not otherwise provided for in this Constitutionr." It was agreed to. On motion the amendments were ordered to be engrossed at the Secretary's desk. The question then being on the passage of the mport. Mr. SCOTT of Auglaize, moved that the report bo recommitted to the committee on the "Schedule" with instructions to report an amendment, "requiring the Treasurer and Secretary of State to be elected in the year 1851." Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. The questi on te bn uestion be now put," it was agreed to. The question then being on the passage of the m port; it was agreed to. iAnd on motion the report was referred to the cadn [reittee on Rev isio~n, ArrangCement and Enrollment. Mr. ST ANBERY submitted the billowing: Resolved, That the committee on Enrollment,!~ instruceted to add the following proviso, to the third section of the article on "Corporations other than co~ 'potations for Banking." 844 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoONAY, MARCq 10 "Provided, That in respect to corporations for re- Ross, Hawkins, Manon. Mason, Morehead, McCloud lgigois, charitable, or literary purposes-or for roads! Nash, Otis, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, -bridges, (or othe(r public improvements,) such rule Swift annd Townshend —19. of individual liability may be established as the Gen- So the motion was agreed to. eral Assembhv lla seem proper and expedient." Mr. HOLT gave notice that on Mondlay he would Mr. LIDEY iti,ved to amend the resolution by move to amend thile first stenditig rule of the Convenstriking out the words "or other public improve- tioh so that a majority of the Convention would make ments. a quorum. Mr. REEMELIN moved that the resolution and Mr. GREENE of Defiance, submitted the followpending amendment be indefinitely postponed. ing: Mr. STANBERY denmanded the yeas and nays, Resolved, That when the Convention adjourns, t which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 41,nays 39, as adjourn to meet at 8 o'clock on Monday mnorning; follows: which was agreed to. YEA-.-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Ewing Mr. GROESBECK submitted the following: -Ftrr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Groesbeck, Resolved, Th-at the Presidenit of the Convention, te Hard, Henderson, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, auditing the accounts of the Secretary, ai(l the asisL Hunt, Hunter, Jones, King, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, ant Secretaries, be authorized to allow such extra com ant pecenstaion, a-e nau ethrzd jto aldlpop uhexra o Loudon, Mitchell, Norris, Patterson, Quigley, Ran- ensation as he ma dee just ad proper. ney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Au- Mr. GROESBECK s;id; I h;-v lia,i no converomaize, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney, Stru- tion with the Secretary or his assistants upon this as le, Swift, Townshend, Way, and President l. I'jeot, but I have ascertained tihat the compensation al NAYS-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet lowed to the Secretaries of this convention, is les NAYS-Mssrs. ndrew, Barbe, Baret of that allowed to the saine officers of'he Virginiia, Marygomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensthat allowead to the sane ofni(-enrs of the Virgihia, M daryderfer, Brown, of Carroll, Case of Licking, Chambers, d Indiana cventios, and I have offered ts Curry, Cutler, Ewart, Florence, Gillett, Green of Ross resolution merely as a matter of justice. I Mr. LARW ILL said he would rather the convet'Hamilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Hitchcock of Geauga, tih n Horton, Larsh, Mason, Morehead, Morris, McCloud tioi would fix the compensation, and take the responNash, Otis, Peck, Scott of Harrison, Smith of High' sibility upon itself. He would nott vote to impose land Smith of Warren Stanbery Stanton Swan diasgreeable a duty upon the President land, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Sn.The question being upon agreeing to the resolpVance of Butler, Wilson, Woodbury and Worthinlg- tion. Pending which, So the motion to indefinitely postpone was agreed On motion of Mr. LARWILL, the Convention ad40. journed. Mr. ST ANTO)N subimit~tedf the following:jund ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY-FIFTH DAY, MIONDAY March 10, 1851. 8 O'CLOCK. P. M. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. Mr. MANON moved a ca!l of the Convention, which was ordered, and Messrs. Archbo!d, Barb,e, B!air, Brown of Athens, Case of Hockitg, Curry, Cutler, Dorsey, Ewiig,Green of Ross, Herderson, Hitchcock of Cnyahoga, Holmes, Holt, Hunter. Johbison, Ken'ion, L,adheter, Mason, McCormick, Nash. Patterson. Perkiits, Riddle. Roll Sellers, Sianbery, Stehblins, Stilwell, Struble, Swift, Thompson of Shelby, Thiorn peoi of Stark, and Vaae, of Champaign, were found absent. On motion of Mr. BENNETT, all further proceedings under the call were dispensed with. Messrs. LARSH and STANTON asked and obtained leave to change their votes otn the amendment submitted by Mr. SAwYER.a, from a select committee, t which weeas committed thet report of the committee on Finance and Taxation, and their votes being severally called, they voted "nay." Mr.LARSHf asked and obtained ipave to change hbts vote on the motion to reconsid.er the vote by which the words "for an entire termn" were irserted in seotion thirteen of the article on the Judicial Departmnent, and his vote being called he voted "vea" Mr. EWART asked and obtained leave to changp his vote on the same subject, and his name being called he voted "nay." Mr RANNEY, from the standing committee on Revision, Arrangement and Enrollment, reported back the article on Apportionment, as follows, to wit: APPORTIONMENT. SEC. 1. The apportionment of this State for mernmbers of the General Assembly shall he male every ten years after the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, in the following manner: The whole pope. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCH 10. lation of the State, as ascertained by the federal census, or in such other mode as the General Assemb'y may d rect, shall be divided by the number "one liundreil," ad the quotient shall be the ratio of representation in the House of Representatives for ten years next suc eding such apportionment. SEc. 2. Every county having a population equal to oilb-half of said ratio shall be entitled to one Repre #ntative; every county containing said ratio and three fourths over shall be entitled to two Representatives; eery county containing three times said ratio shall be ttitled to three Representatives, and so on, requiring, after the first two, an entire ratio for each additional Representative. SEc. 3. When any county shall have a fraction stove the ratio so large that, being multiplied by five, thle result will be equal to one or more ratios, additional Representatives shall be appointed for such ratios,among the several sessions of the decennial period, in the fol [owing manner: If there be only one ratio, a Repro entative shall be allotted to the fifth session of the de ~nnial period; if there are two ratios, a Representative sfhall be allotted to the fourth and third sessions re spectivefy; if three, to the third, second and first ses tions respectively; if four, to the fourth, third, second and first sessions respectively. SEC. 4. Any county forming, with another county ae counties, a representative district, during one d e, cnnial period, if it shall have acquired sufficientpt pop ulation at the next decennial period, shall be entitled to a separate representation, if there shall be left in the Jistrict from which it shall have been separated, a pop. ulation sufficient for a representative; but no such Cange shall be made, except at the regular decennial period for the apportionment of representatives. Smc. 5. If in fixing any subsequent ratio, ascounty previously entitled to a separate representation, shall have less than the number required by the new ratio for a representative, such county shall be attached to thecounty adjoining it, having the lea. t number of in habitants; and the representation of the district so armed, shall be determined as herein provided. Sic. 6. The ratio f'or a, Senator shall forever hereaf te-r be ascertained by dividing the whole population of the State by the Lumber thirty.five. Szc. 7. The State is hereby divided into thirty three Senatorial districts, as follows: The county of Hamilton shall constitute the first Senatorial district; the counties of Butler and Warren the second; Mont- &omery and Preble the third; Clermont and Brown the fourth; Greene, Clinton and Fayette the fifth; Ross and Highlland the sixth; Adams, Pike, Scioto — and Jack. on the seventh; Lawrence, Gallia, Meigs and Vinton Cie eighth; Athens, Hocking and Fairfield the ninth; Franklin and Pickaway the tenth; Clark, Champaign - mnd Madison the eleventh; Miami, Darke and Shel,by the twelfth; Logan, Union, Marion and Hardin the thirteenth; Washington and Morgan the fourteenth; Muskitigum and Perry the fifteenth; Delaware and i Licking the sixteenth; Kunx and Morrow the seven. C teonth; Coshocton and Tuscarawas the eighteenth; t Guernsey and Monroe the nineteenth; Belmont and Harrison the twentieth; Carroll and Stark the twenty- t first; Jefferson and Columbiana the twenty-second; J Trumbull and Mahoning the twenty-third; Ashtabula t Lake and Geauga the twenty-fourth; Cuyahoga the g twenty-fifth; Portage and Summit the twenty-sixth; Medina atd Lorain the twenty-seventh; Wayne and c Holmes the twenty-eighth; Astland and Richlta.d the A twenty-ninth; Huron, Erie, SanduIsky and Ottawa the t thirtieth; Seneca, Crawford and Wyandot the thirty- t first; Mercer, Auglaize. Allen, Van Wert, Paulding, Dcance and Williems the thirty-second; and Hancock,, c Wood, Lucas, Fulton, Henry and Putnam the thirty third. For the first decennial period after the adoption of t hi s Constitution, ea ch of said districts shall be en titled to one Senator e xcept the first district, which shall be entitled to three Senators. SEc. 8. The same rules shal l be applie d i n appohi tioning the fractions of senatorial districts, and in annexing districts which may hereafter have less than tSree-fourths of a s enatorial ratio a s are a p plied to representative districts. SEC. 9. Any county forming part of a senatorial district having acquired a population equal to a full senatorial ratio, shall be ma de a separate senatorial dis. trict at any regular dece nnial apport ion ment, if a full senatorial ratio shall be left in the district from which it shall be taken, SE.c. 10. For the first ten years after the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty- one, the apportion ment of representatives shall be as provided in the schedule, and no change shall ever be made in the principles of representation as herein established, or in tile senatorial disiricts, except as above provided. All territory belonging to a county at the time of any at portionment shall, as to the right of representation and suffrage, remain an integral part thereof during the decennial period. SEC. 11. The Governor, Auditor, and Secretary of State, or any two of them, shall at lest six months pri or to the October election in the year one thousand eighit hundred and sixty-onie, and at each decennial period thereafter ascertain and determine the ratio of representation according to the decennial census the number of Representatives and Senators each county or district shall be entitled to elect, and for what years within the next ensuing ten years, and the Governor shall cause the same to be published in such manner as shall be directed by law. JUDICIAL APPORTJONMENT. SEC. 12. For Judicial purposes, the State shall be apportioned as follows: The county of Hamilton shall constitute the first district, which shall not be subdivided, and the Judges therein may hold separate courts, or separate st! ings of the same court, at the same time. The counties of Butler, Preble and Darke shall constitute the first subdivision; Montgomery, Miami and Champaign the second; and Warren, Clinton, Greene and Clarke thle third subdivision of the second district, and together shall form such district. The counties of Shelby, Auglaize, Allen, Hardin, Logan, Union and Marion the firstsubdivision;Mercer, Van Wert, Putnam, Paulding, Defiance, Williams, Henry and Fulton the second; and Wood, Seneca, Hancock, Wyandotand Crawford the third subdivision of the third district, and together shall form such district. The counties of Lucas, Ottawa, Sandusky, Erie and Huron shall constitute the first subdivision; Lorain, Medinia and Summit the second;- and the county of Cuyahoga the third subdivision of the fourth district, and together shall form such district. The counties of Clermnonlt, Brown and Adams shall constitute the first subdivision; JIighliand, Ross and Fayette the second, and Pickaway, Franklin and Madisonl the third subdivision of the fifthh district, and ton gether shall form sucIh d.strict. T~lecounties of Licking, Knox, and Delaware shall conlstit ute the first subdivision, Morrow, Richland, and Ashland, the secolid; and Wayne, Hohnles, and Coshoeton, the third subdivision of tihe sixth district, and together shall form such district. The counties of Fairfield, Perry, and Hocking shall constitute the first subaivision; Jackson, Viaton, Pike, 8 y 11 n 0 e I n 9 I e d y d e h I I 0 0 f r 940 CHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCH 10. thousand eight hundred and fifty-thr6e, and no suit shall be commenced in said two first mentioned Courts after the second Monday of February, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-two nor in said last mentioned Court after the second Monday in August. one thousand eight hundred and fifty-two, and all the business in either of said Courts, not disposed of within the time limited for their continuance as aford said, shall be transferred to the Court of Common Pleas. SEca. 7. All county and township officers and Justices of the Peace, in office on the first day of September, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, shall continue in office unitil their terms expire, - spectively. Seac. 8. Vacancies in office, occurring after the firs day of September, one thousand eight hundred and fifty.one, shall be filled as is now prescribed by law. anrid, until officers are elected or appointed, and qualfied under this Constitution. Sec. 9. This Constitution shall take effect on the first day of September, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one. SEaC. 10. All officers shall continue inii office unffil their successors shall be chosen B,nd qualified. SECa. 11. Suits pending in the Supreme Court It Bank, shall be transferred to the Supreme Court, provided for in this Constitution, and be proceeded in according to law SEc. 12. The District Courts shall, in their respe tive counties, be the successors of the present Supreme Court, and all suits, prosecutions, judgment records, and proceedings pending and remaining in sai d Supreme Court in the several counties of any district, shall be transferred to the respective District Courts of such counties, and be proceeded in gA though no change had been made in said Suprvma Court. Src. 13. The said Courts of Common Plea s shall be the successors of the present Courts of Common Pleas in the several counties, except as to probate jurisdiction; and all suits, prosecutions, proceedin records and judgments pending, or being i said last mentioned Courts, except as aforesaid, shal! be transferred to the Courts of Common Pleas created by thys Constitution, an'd proceeded in as though the samn had been therein instituted. SEC. 14. The Probate Courts provided for in thb Constitution, as to all matters within the jurisdicti" conferred upon said Courts, shall be the successors in the several counties, of the present Courts of CoA mnon Pleas; and the records, files and papers, business and proceedings appertaining to said jurisdictio shall be transferred to said Courts of Probate, and 1b then proceeded in according to law. SEC. 15. Until otherwise provided by law, elections for Judges and Clerks shall be held, and the poll books returned, as is provided for Governor; and the abstracts therefrom, certified to the Secretary of State, shall be by him opened in the presence of th Governor, who shall declare the result, and islse commissions to the personis elected. SEC. 16. Where two or more counties are joined ta a Senatorial, Representative, or Judicial district, the returns of elections shall be sent to the county having the largest population. SEa. 17. The foregoing Constitution shall be submitted to the electors of the Slate at an election to l~ held onl the third Tuesday in Junle, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-onle, in the several election districts of this Slate. The ballots at such an ele~ tion shall be wvrittenl or printed as follows:s Those in favor of the Constitutionl, "New Constitution, Yes~,~ those against the (:onstitution, "New Constitutin Scioto, and Lawrence, the second; and Gallia, Meigs, Athens, a,.d Washi ngt on, the thir d subdivision of the seventh d istrict, and together shall form suc h district. The counti tes of Muskingum and Morgan shall coCi rtitute the f irs t subdi vision; Guernsey, Belmont, a nd Monroe, the second; and Jefferson, Harrison, and Tuscarawas, the third subdivision of the eighth district, and tog ethe r shall f orm such district. '1 he c oun tie s of Stark, Carroll, and Columbiana shall constitute the first subdivision; Trumbull, Portage, aned Mahoninug, t he second; a nd GeauTa, Lake, -and Ashtabula, e th e t hir d subdivision of the ninth district, and tog e ther shall form such district. SEC. 13. The General Assearjblv shall attach any n ew counti es that may hereafter be erected to such districts, or subdivisions thereof, as shall be m ost con. venient. The question then being M "shall the article be now enrolled," it w a s agreed to. The Convention then took up the "Schedule," as r eported back by the committee on Revision, Arrange ment a nd Enr o llme nt, as follows, to wit: SCHEDULE. SEC. 1. All laws of th is S ta te in f orce on the fi rs t day of September, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, not inconsistent with tits Co nstitution, shall continue in force until amended or repealed. SEc. 2 Th e first e l ectio n for members of the General Assembly un der this Constitution, sh all be held on the second Tuesday of October- one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one. SEc. 3. T he first election for Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Auditor, Treasure r and Secretary of State and Attorney Genera l, shall be held on the second Tuesday of October one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one. The p ersons holding said offices on the firrst day of Septe mber one thousand eight hundred an d fi fty- one, shall continue the rein until the secon d Monday of Janiuary one thousand eight hundred and fifty-two. Sec. 4. The first election for Judges of the SuCortn e C CourtCourts of CotCmon Pleas, and Probate: cOiurts, and Clerks of the Courts of Common Pleas,. shad be heli oiin the secon d T'uesday of October one thousand eight hundred and fifty-oie: and the official term of said judges and clerks so elected, shall commence on the second Monday of February one thousand eight hundred and fifty-two. Judges and Clerks of the Courts of Common Pleas and Supreme Court, in office on the first day of September one thiusand eight hundred and fifty- o fie, shall continue in office, wit tr th e nd d e, n t i their present powers and duties, unti the second Monday of February one thousand eight hundred and fifty-two. No suit or proceeding pending in any of the Courts of this State, shall be affected by the adop. tion of this Constitution. SEC. 5. The Register and Receiver of the Land Of. fice, Directors of the Penitentiary, Directors of the Benevolent Institutions of the State. the State Librariann, and all other officers, not otherwise provided for in this Constitution, in cffice on the first day of September one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, shall continue in office until their terms expire respectively, unless the General Assembly shall otherwise provide. Szo. 6. The Superior and Commercial Courts of Cincinnati, and the Superior Court of Cleveland, shall remain until otherwise provided by law, with their present powers and jurisdiction; and the Judges and Clerks of said Courts, in office on the first dayr of September, one thousand eight hundred and fifty, one, shall continue in office until the expiration of their terms of office, respectively, or until otherwise provided by law- but neither of said Courts shall continue after the second Monday of February, one I 84-1 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCH 10. - The county of Hamilton shall be entitled to sevei Representatives in each session, and four additional Representatives-one in the first, one in the second, - one in the third, and one in the fourth session of the r decennial period. The following counties, until they shall have am - quired a sufficient population to entitle themn to elect separately, under the fourth section of the eleventh t article, shall form districts in manner following, to a wit: The counties of Jackson and Vinton one districts the counties of Lucas and Fulton one district; the - counties of Wyandot and Hardin one district; the , counties of Mercer and Van Wert one district; the counties of Paulding, Defiance and Williams one - district; the counties of Putnamn aid Henry one di trict; and the counties of Wood and Ottawa one di& trict; each of which districts shall be entitled to o one Representative in every session of the decennial period. The question then being, "shall the article be now enrolled," it was agreed to. L The Convention then took up the article oi Corpor ations other than Corporations for Banking, as re ported back by the committee on Revision, Arrange ment and Enrollment. Mr. REEMELIN moved that the article be recom. mitted to the committee on Revision, &c, with in structions to strike out of the title the woras "other than corporations for banking." Mr. MASON. I are opposed, Mr. President, to striking out that which has accompanied this bill from the beginning, and which forms a part of it, giving direction and character to the whole. This article has always been acted upon and dealt with as relating to corporations other than banking, and the proposition now is, in effect, to extend its provisions to the banks, and to give it a different character and operation from that which it has hitherto borne. We have already other provisions regarding banks and their mode of taxation. Mr. HAWKINS. The only inquiry to be made 1% whether the title of the article corresponds with it promises. If the article does not include bunks, A ought not to be made to do so by a change of title. On which motion, Mr. CHAMBERS demanded the yeas and nay*, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 57, nays 31, as follows: YEAs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Case or Licking, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Forbes, Farr, Gray, Greene of Defilaice, Gregg, Groesbeck Hard, Harlan, Hawkins, Hootman, liumnpl)reville Hunt, King, Kirkwood, Larslh, Lawrence, Larwii4 Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Manotn, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemeli, Sawyer,a e Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stanton, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swan, S rift, Townshenrd, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Worthington and President-57. NAYs-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Bapb nett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Coilings, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Greea of Ross, Hamnilton, Henderson, Holmes, Huuter,Johnson, Jones, Mason, Morris, McClout1, Otis, Peck Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Sm1ith of Highland, Smith of W\arren, Stanbery, Williams and Woodbury .-31. So the motion to recommit with instructions provailed. Mbr. Mc0ORMICK submitted the~fol1owing: is Resolved, Th~at the co~nmi ttes oni R~vision1, &c., be instructed to transfer thle Section on B3ankinzg to the Article on Corpcrati~:~s." On thee adoption of t:;e resolution, No." The polls at said election shall be opened be tween the hours of eight andl ten o'clock; A. M., and dtosed at six o'clock. P. M.; and the said election shall be conducted, and the returns thereof made and cer tified, to the Secretary of State, as provided by law for annual elections of State and county officers. Within twenty days after such an election, the Secre retary of State,hall op en th e returus thereof in the presence of the Governor, and if i t shall appear that a majority of all the votes cast at such electionv are in favtor of the Co nst itution, the Governor shall issue his proclamnation, stating that fact, and said Consti tution sh all bthe th e Constitution of the State of Ohi o, and not otherwise. SEC. 18. At t he time rwhs en th e votes of the elec tors shall be t aken for the adoption or rejection of this Constitution, the additional section ill the words fol lowing, to wit: "No license to tra ffic in intoxic ating liquors shall hereafter be granted in this State, but the General Assembly may by law provide against evils arising therefrom," shall be separately submit ted to the electors for adoption or rejection, in form following, to w it: A separate ballot may be given by avery ele ctor, and deposited in a s eparate box. Up n iion te shallots given forsaid separate alendment shali be written, o in or printed, or partly written and partly p rinted, the words, "Licelse to sell intoxicating liquors "Yes;" andl upon the ballots given against said amea ndment, i like manner, the words,'Li ense to s ell intoxicating liquors, No." If at the said de gisioll a majority of all the votes given for and tagain st s aid aliendmert shall contaiin t he words,'Li tense to sell intoxicating liquo rs, N o," thenl the said amendment sh all be a separate section of artic le fif te e n of the Costie otitution. SEt. 19. T e a i onen he apportionment of the Hose of Re presentatives duri ng the first de cennia l period u nder ithis Cons titutiod shall be as follows: The counties of Ad,a iuis, All e en, Athens, Aglaize, Carroll, Cehanpaiv n, Clark, Clilitona, Crawford, Darke, Delaware, Erie, Fayette, Gallia, Geauga, Greene, Hancock, Ilarrisoni, Hlocking, Holmes, Lake, Law rence,Logan, Aladison, Mari(-on,Meigs, Morrow, Perry Pickaway, Pike, Pretble, Sandusky, Scioto, Shelby, and Union shall severally be eiltitled to one Repretative in eac h session o f the dec ennia l perio d. The counties o,f Franklin, Licking, Montgomery anid St ark shall each be enttitl d to t wo lMepresentatives in each sessions of the decennial period. The counties of Ashiland, Coshocton, Highland, H"uron, Lora,ill, Mahonijtg.Me(tditna, Miami, Portage, Seneca, Sttiiit:it altd Wai-;a; shall severally be entitled to one Rep resenta tiv e il, each session andl one additional Represen tativ xe in the fifth session of the d ecennial per(iiod. - the coidties of Ashtabula, Brown, But] er, Cle i-it'ott, F;ti l tield, Guernsey, Jefferson, Knox, Monroe, Alorgan, tich ia,:d, Truinbull, Tuscarawas and WashinigL!oi shall severally be entitled to one Representative in each sessiotn, and two additional Representatives. one in the thir(l and one in the fourth esion o(f the decennial period. The counties of Belmont, Columbiana, Ross and Wayne shall, Eceverally, be entitled to one Representative inl each,ession, and three additional Represengtatives —one ill the tisrbt, one ill the second, andt one in the third session of the decenntial period. The county of Mulskinlguml shall be entitled to two Represenltatives. in each session, and one additional Represenltative ill the fifthl session of the decennial period. The county of (:uylahloga shall be entitled to two Represenltative,. inl each session, and two additionalRepresentatizes-lisle in the third and one in the fear.th session of the decennial period. I 848 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, MARCH 10. Mr. HOLMES demanded the yeas and nays. which its own use. This section refers exclusively to the ta were ordered, and requited-yeas 44, nays 35, as fol- king of property by a mere private corporation When lows: the gentleman from Clark talks about this amendment YEAs-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Dorsey.:Ew- being sprung upon the convention, and being a fraud itng.Farr, Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, upon this body, he should remember by whom this Holt, Hootman, Humphreville. Hunt, Johnson, Kirkwoo(l, amendment was advocated, and who voted for it, It Lawrence, Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, London, Man- was voted for by my learned and venerable colleague dk, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, OUigley, from Geauga, (icr. HITCHCOCK,) who said that he adRanney, Reemelin, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot'Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Townshend, Vance of mitted that the property must be paid for before it was Butler,.Warren Way and Woodbury-44. taken, but he wished the Legislative power over cor. NAys-Messrs. Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of porations to be recognized, and he wanted to guard the Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Cahill, Chambers, interest of the citizen whose property had been taken Ontlings, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Hamilton, Har- unil it was paid for.Ian, Holmens, Hunter, Jones, larsh, Mason, Morris. Mcoud, u,t it s pmerely. Otis, Peck, Perkins, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Harrison, Smith just, but it is politic. at Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery. Stanton, Swift, Mr. STANBERY. The gentlemanfrom Trumbull Williams and Wl, orthiiogton-3:i. makes a distinction between private property taken by So the resolution was adopted, the State for its use, and private property taken by a Mr. MASON suli)mnitted the following: corporation for a work of improvement, as timber for Resolved,'I'tat the committee on Revision be in- a bridge or land for a Railroad. structed to strike out the fifth section of the Report on Mr. RANNEY. Judge Hitchcock makes such a Corporations othler than Banking. distinction. Mr. MASON. I desire to make a few remarks, in Mr. STANBERY. There is no such distinction. regard to the n. anner in which this amendment was Whether the property is taken for the public use by Introduced andti carried through this body. the State or for public use by a corporation, there- i Mr. HUMPHREVILLE. I rise to a question ofor- no difference. Why this provision that the money der. This amendmenit was introduced and adopted by must not only be paid, but first paid. Suppose the line a deliberate vote, in the identical form in which it now of the toad parses through the lands of a non-resident, stands. I submit if it is in order to move now to or a minor, must you stop a great public work until strike it out. the one can be found or the other conme of age? The PRESIDENT. Under the rules, it is not ex. Mr. RANNEY. That'salla fudge. actly clear whetherstrictly speaking it may be done or Mr. STANBERY. All a fudge! Then why did not. The bill has been taken up, and has been re- you change it? Why not allow the money to be decommitted, arid it would seem that as long as the pow- posited for the owner. when the amount is properly at er to recommit remains, the power to instruct exists. certained? The question is nIow on the instructions offered by the Mr. NORRIS. I should say nothing but for the gentleman from Clark, (Mr. MASON ) abusive manner in which the committee has been tree Mr. MASON. The record wil show with what de- d by the gentleman from Clark. I say this, knowing Mr. Mliberation the reordent willas passed, and by how witlarge what de- wa I say, that a charge of fraud and chicanery, under [14oration thec amnendment was passed, and by how largesuhcrusacscolhaeoefrmoonua vote. At the timte it was introduced the article had such circumstances, could have come from no one upbeen engrossed as a part of the constitution. Thie ef- on this floor but the gentleman from Clark, (Mr. MAfect of the amendmiient is to exclude companies from soN.) I have too good an opinion of every other miemmaking a deposit of the money, in the case where the lber ofthis body than to believe that sucha charge could right of way is souglit by a company and refused by come from any one except that silver-mouthed gent! man. the proprietor of the land, and fixes it so that howeverman. lengthy thelitigations and however strenuous the resis- Mr. MASN. I desire to make an explanation. Mr. NORRIS. I want no explanations. I know tance, the monLoey mnust actually be forced upon the land-owner, before his properly can be made use of or that the gentleman from Clark never speaks but in the occupied. It takes away alo the provision tt t thes malice of his heart. I introduced the amendment myoccsins shall be su bmitted a to the adjudication ot a self. It was the embodiment of the original fifth seequestions sha',l be, submitted to the adjudication of toofterproftecmiteoiorratint court of record. This subject has engaged the atte n-oih of ohi report of t he committee o Corporatins. tion of this body for three or four weeks in quarrelling i am not going now to advocate the propriety of th and disputatioi, before it was settled to the satisfaction measure, which in itself is honest and proper, and have 0 only tosyt entleman of this body that if they of this body. It was at length so adjusted, and the re- want any bto gentlemen of this body that it they port passed tbroughl all the processes preparatory to its want any better evidence of its honesty they may find final passage-it was engrossed anac made a part of the it in the fact that it is opposed by the gentleman from constitution on Saturday evening, when ttis a,nend- &Clark. [Cries of Order, Order.] It is a practicable cment was sprl g upon the coutyveantion I say that it e d and an important provision and I believe the honest porment was spriii:g upon the COLIVentionl. I say that it' tino,h ovninwl dp t Ciso re. is repugnant to the other provisions of the constituti ion of the Conveniotl will adopt it. [Cries of Order.) p.. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~Mr. STANBERY. I rise to a question of order.. The provision providing fIr the taking of private pro- Mr. STANBORRIS. I harive to a question thing, (order, order.) perty for the public use allows a deposit of the money Mr. NORRS. I have nothiug, (order, order.) I and an assess:iient of the damages in a court of record. have said all I intended. This doesnot. Ther damagesMr. MASON. Mr. President — This does not. rhere can be no uniformity in the r o rPr practice under them. And I say thatit is a fraud upon M.M O.ICries of order the deliberations of this body, in thus, by springing an wr in e a (ries I der and toSa amendment at such a time, changing those provisions a word in ex planaton. (Cries of order and great )othat have been deliberately settled, after weeks of de-:The PRESIDENT. Has te gentleman leav t' bate. make an explanation. [Cries of leave, leave, not Mr! RANNEYA T he gentleman from C lark, (Mr. leave-proceed, order, order.) AsoN,) is mi-taken as m the repugnancy in the two t Mr. MASON. The gentleman from Clermont wn sections. The tire re.e'u::A:"s the takingof private pro-;mistaken if he supposed that 1 intended to charg perty for the ptl,)lic n,&,. hot a different provision was i fraud upon him or any other member of this body. I thought to be lst:ens c.r whiere a mere private corpora- said the proposition was a fraud in its effect. It was tio take s the t 0i mtie citizell, and converts it to introduced after the article was in fact disposed of, late I -1 849 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, MARCH 10. on Saturday evening, just as business was being wound up. As to the fiery arrows which the gentleman, [Mr. NoRits,] supposes he has sped, at me, I will only re mnark that they spent their force before reaching their object and have fallen harmless at my feet. Tihe question being on the adoption of Mr. MASON'S resolutioe n, Mr. WOODBURY demanded the Previous Ques tion. The question then being "shall the main question be now put?" Mr. MANON demanded the yeas and nays which were ordered, and resulted, yeas 57, nay)s 27,-as fol lows: YvAs —Messrs. Barbee,Bennett, Blair,iBlickensderfer; Brown of Carroll, Cahill, (_hambers, Chancy, Clark, Lorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Gillett, Graham, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hard, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Huin phreville, Hunt, Huntiter, King, Larwill, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudoer, Maso,, Morris,McCornick,Norris,Orton, Patterso,on Perkins, Quigley, Rai-ney, Rfeemnelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, S;tebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swilt, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-57. ,NAYs-Messrs, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble. Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Colings, Cook, Curry, Florence, Gray, Green of Ross; Groesbeck, Harlan, Hor ton, Johnson, Jones,. Larsh, Lawrence, Leech, Maron, Aitch ell, McCloud, Otis, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, fitanbery, Swan and Wortlnngtol —27. So the demand for the Previous Question was bUs tained. The question then being on the adoption of the res. ctition. Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulted yeas 37, nays 49,-as fol lows: YEl s — roessrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomery, Barnett of Preble, Bennett, Blicliensderfer, BrowAn of Car roll, Case of Hocking. Case of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Florence, Graham, Gray, Greenof Ross, Ham ilton, Harlan, Hawkins, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Larsh, Manon, Mason, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Perkiins, ariih of Hiighland. Smith of Warren, Stanbery, 6wan, Warren, Wil liams and Worthington-:37. NAys —Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Dorsey, Farr' Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Hardi, Henderson,Holmes, Bolt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt,Jones, King, Lawrence Larwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey. Loudon, Mitchlell, Mocor mick. Norris, Orton, Patterson, (uigley, ganhiey, Reemelin, Riddle Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins,Stickney, Struble, Swift, Taylor, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and Preotdent-49. So the resolution was disagreed to: Mr. LAWRENCE submit ted the following: ,R esolved, That the Committee of Revision be instructed e to change section -, of the Report on Miscellaneous Sub. Zects, that it shall require a majority of all the voters voting at such election, to approve of the law incorporating Bank. tag institutions, before the same shall go into effect.", Mr. WOODBURY moved the Previous Question: The question then being "shall the nain question be now put," it was agreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the resclution, Mr. LARWILL demanded the yeas and navs, which were ordered and resulted yeas 50, nays 39, as follows: YreAs-Messrs. Blair, Cahi, C haney, Clark, Collings, Farr, Forbes,Gillerr,i G;-eene of Dlefianlce, Gregg, Creesb~eck, Header sol<, Hohmes, Holt, Ilootmati, Hutuphrevitto, Hunt, Joies, King, Kirkwood, Lawrence, Larwil~, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, M,C:orinick, Norris, Ortot, Pattersoit, Q. uigoeye Ranitey, Reetnelin,.Riddle, Roil, Sawyer, $cott of Auglaize Sellers, Snith of Wyandot, Stelibins, Stickney, Struble, Swat"t Taylor, Townslhend. Vatice of Butler, Wilson, Woodtbury annd President —50 NAS —Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Montgomlery,Barnett of P,ei)le, Bates, Bennett, B ickensderfer, Brown otf Carroll, Case of Hocking, Case of Licking, Chaisibers, Cook, M Gurry, Dorsey, F~oremte, Graham, Gray. Hamiltoit, hlard, Ha,Inn, Hawkins, Horton, Hlunter, Juhlsoin, Lalrsh, Maaou5 M;s.o pa Morris, McCloud, Otis, Peck, Perkinis, Smiiith of H'ighlatiu# Striilh of Warren, Stanlbery, Stanitoni, Wsiaren, Williiams ai Worthingtoni-39. .So the resolution was agreed to. Mr. CASE of Licking submitted the following: ; "Resolved, That the Committee on Revision be instrscd to so modify the 5th section of the Report of the (omnmittee off Corporations, other than Banking, so as to mlal-ke the rule of compensation therein provided, correspond with that es tablished in the last part of section 20th, of the Bill' of Rigtii, except as to trial by a jury in a Court of Record." Mr. CASE of Licking. If we are to leav'e the pso vision as it stands, I should look upon it as saying that ter here shall be no more rail roads constructed in the State. Its effe ct will be to force every rail ro a d to ) cease its operations at the instance of an oa stinate property holder, and to t hrow out at the tm s alr time an inducement to interested a nd obstinate m(r to interpose obst acles fo r th e very purpose of ob taining Iarge sums of money. If the mone y i s safe' deposited and secured to be paid at the moment t} e amount is ascertained, that ought to be sufficient to satisfy the demands of justice in the p remises. There is a case in my own county where the p r oprie to r of land has taken upon himself to go into litigation for th e price of proper ty t aken for t he lin e of a railroad The case ha s bee n tried some three time s already, and years may ela pse before it is finally settled; lie ertheless the road is made, and car s ar e running u p on it. Under this provision, the wo rk would haer been stopped and the operations of the company would be awaiting the termin ation of the suit. Mr. LARWILLI. I agree with the gentleman from Licking, (Mr. CASB,) upon thi s subject. If provis ions are madehe r the deposit o f the mone y, it seems to me that all has been do ne th a t justice requires. Immense public injury and private loss may arise from the stoppage of a great line of improvement, and thbat, too, merely to satisfy the caprice or perhaps the malice of a single individual. It would seon if the proper provisions are made for the deposit o the money, no one will have a right to complain. The question being on the adoption of the resolo. tion of Mr. CASE of Licking Mr. JONES demanded the yeas and navs, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 49, nays 38- foW lows: YEAS.-Messrs. Andrews, Barbee, Barnet of Monut gomery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blicb. ensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Case of Hocking, Cam of Licking, Chambers, Collings, Cook, Curry, Dop sey, Ewing, Florence, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Gmen of Ross, Croesbeck. Hamilton, Hard, Harlan, Haw kins, Horton, Hunter, Johnson, Kirkwood, Larab, Larwill, Manon, Mason. Morris, McCloud, 3icCormnick, Otis, Peck, Perkins, Smith of Highland. Smith of Warren, Stalnbery, Swan, Vance of Bu ler, Warren, Williams, Woodbury, and WorthinT toen-49. NAYS.-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Chaney, Clark, Farb Forbes, Greene of Defiance, Gregg, Henderson Holmes, Holt, Hootman, Humphreville, Hunt, Jonel King, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, Loudon, Mitchell, Norris, Orton, Quigley, Ranhey, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wya, dot, Stebbins, Stickney, Struble, Swift, Tows~ bend, Wilson and President —38. So the resolution was agreed to. Mr. R&NNE3Y submlitted the following: Resolved, That the Committee on Revision be instructed to strike out the whole of section five, oa corporations. Mr. RASINEY moved the previous questron. The question then being, "shall the main quest~ka ~ be nos )ut?" i~ was agreed to.. ! 850 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MAFCH 10. benefit from any improvement proposed by such corporation, which compensation shall be ascertained by a jury of twelve meni, in a court of record, as shall be prescribed by law. SEC. 6. The General Assembly shall provide for the organization of cities and incorporated villages by general laws, and restrict their ~power of taxation, assessment, borrowing mor one y, c ontracting debt s anh loaning e red a ort their credits so as to prevent the abuse of such power. SEc. 7. No act of the General Assembly, authorizing associations with banking powers, shall take effect, until it shall be submitted to the people, at the general election next succeeding the passage thereof, and be approved by a majority of all the electors voting at such election. The question then being, "shall the article be now enrolle d?" It was agreed to. The Convention then took up the report of the Committee on Finance and Taxation, as reported back bytthe Comimittee on Revision, &c., as follows, to wit.: The question then being on the adoption of the' resolution. Mr. RIDDLE demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted yeas 30, nays 59 - as follows: YEAS. —MeSsrs. Andrew,s, Barbee, Barnet of Montgonmery, Barnett of Preble, Bates, Bennett, Blickensderfer, Brown of Carroll, Chambers, Collings, Curry, Gillett, Graham, Gray, Green of Ross, Hanm ilton, Horton, IIHuinter, Larsh, Mason, Morris, McCloud, Otis, Smith of Highland, Smith of Warren, StanbeiT, Stanton, Swan, Williams, and Worthington-30. NAYS.-.-Messrs. Blair, Cahill, Case of Hocking, Cast of Licking-, Chl,aiiey, Clark, Cook, Dorsey, Ewing, Farr, Forbes, Greel,,e of Defiance, Gregg, Groes )beck, Hard, Htarlaii, Hawkins, Henderson, Holmes, Holt, Hootian, fHumnphreville, Hunt, Jones, King, KCirkwood. L?rwill, Leech, Leadbetter, Lidey, LoudoTi, Manon, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton Patterson, Perkins, Quigley, Ranney, Reemelin, Riddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Stebbins, Stickney,Struble, Swift, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Warren, Way, Wilson, Woodbury and President-59. So the resolution was rejected. Mr. ROLL suibrmitted tle following: Resolved, That James Pollock, Lamplighter, &c., to the Convention, be allowed the sum of one dollar and fifty cents per day for his services during the session of the Convention in the city of Cincinnati." Mr. MANON demianided the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted, veas 45, nays 37, as follows: YEAss-Messrs. Anxdrews, Barnet of Montgomery, BatesBennlett. Blair, Brown of Carroll, Cuiry, Dorsey, Farr, Flor, ence, Green of Ross. Groesbecli Henderson, Holmes, Horton, tHunt, Johnson, Joies, Kirkwood, Iarsh, Lawrence, Le ech, Lidey, Loudon. Ma, Mitchell, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson Quigley, Hiddle, Roll, Sawyer, Scott of Auglaize, Smith of Highland,':mith of W arren, Stanbery, Stickney, 'J'aylo,: Wiliais, WVilson, Woodbury, Worthington and Presideiet-45. NAYS-Messrs Barbee, Barnett of Preble Cahill, Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Ewart, Ewving, Forbes, Gray, Greene of Defiance. Gregg, Hard, Harlani, ltawiins, Hootman, Humphrevi[e, Hunteri Kiig, Larwill, Manon, Morris, McCloud, Peirkiins, Reemelii, Sellers, Smith of Wyandot, Sttantoi, Stebbi)s, Struble, Swilt, Townsbend, Vance of Butler, Warren and WCay-:-6 ,So the iesollutiorn was agreed to. M!Jr. RANNEY, fronm the Standing Committee on Revision, reported back the article on Corporations, amended in accordance with the instructions given by the Convenxtion, as follows: ARTICLE XIIL. CORPORATIONS. S,cqc. 1. Tee General Assetml)ely shall pass no special act coiferri lng coi porate powers. SEC. 2. Corporations may be formed under general laws, but all such laws may, from time to time, be altered or repealed. SEiC. 3. Dues from corporations shall be secured by such individual liability of the stockholders, and other neans,as nay be prescribed by law,but, in all cases,each stockholder shall be liable, over and above the stock by him or her ownfed, and anly amount unpaid thereon, to a further sum,n at leas~t equal ia1 amrount to such stock. SEC. 4. The property of corporationsnCow existing, or hereafter created, shall forever be subject to taxation, the same as the property of individuals. SEC. 5. No right of way shall be appropriated to the use of any corporations until full compensation therefore be first made in money, or first secured by a deposit of money, to the owner, irrespective of any 55 ARTICLE Xll. FINANCE AND TAXATION. SEc. 1. The levying of taxes by the poll is griev — ous and oppressive; therefore, the General Assembly shall never levy a poll tax for county or State pur poses. SEc.',2. Laws shall be passed, taxing, by a uniform rule, all moneys, credits, investments in bonds, stocks, joint stock companies,or otherwise; and also all real and personal property, according to its true value iln iioney, but burying grounds, public school houses, houses used exclusively for public worship, institutions of piety, public charity, public property used exclusively for any public purpose, and perso nal property to an amount not exceeding in value two hundred dollars for each individual, may, b y general laws, be exempt ed from taxation; but al l such laws sh all b e subject t o alteration or rep eal, and the value of all property so exempted, shall, trom time to time, be ascertained and published as may be directed by law. SEc. 3. The General Assembly shall provide, sby law, for taxing the notes and bi lls discounted or purchased, moneys Joaned, and all othe r property, effects or dues, of every description, (without dedu cti on,) of all ba4nks now existing or hereafter created, and of all bankers; so that all property employed in banking shall always bear a burden of taxation equal to that Imposed on the property of individuals. SEC. 4. The General Assembly shall provide for raising revenue sufficient to defray the expenses of tho State for each year and also a sufficient sum to pay the interest on the State debt. SEC. 5. No tax shall be levied, except in pursuance of law; and every law imposing a tax shall state distinctlv the object of the same, to whiLh only it shall be applied. SF~c. 6. The State shall never contract any debt for purposes of internal improvements. The committee oIn Revision, &c., recomme-rded that the words "or property" be inserted after the words "public property" in section 2, of the Report, Mr. RANNEY moved to amend section 2, by stri — king out the words "or property open to public user at,d without charge therefor," and inserting in liens thereof the words "used exclusively for any publi,:: purpose." Mr. GROESBECK. It will be remembered, that I have always contended that the property of citizens should be paid for in money, before it is taken for the public use, and I have been unwilling to adopt any other rule applied to corporations. Here is a 851 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES —MoNDAY, MARCH 10. proposition regarding the right of way only, and the the change, believing as I did lhat much of evil in question is whether in regard to this, corporations future constructions of this provision would be the should be placed in the same position that other cor- result. I now only wish to say, Mr. President, that porate bodies are placed in when they take property I wish a clear and unequivocal construction of those foir public use. The city of Cincinnati, of Dayton, terms to go out from this Convention. I then, here Columbus, or Cleveland for instance, may proceed and in my place, and in the presence of the members of condemn one hundred feet square of lanfd in any part this body, declare as the judgment of this Conven of the city for a public hall, or a quantity of ground tion, as previously determined, that those terms as for a market house or like purpose, and it has a right used in this section, are understood and intended to be to do so, and under the provision in the bill of rights, so understood, to mean U.NITED STATES BONDS AND STATE it is not required to pay the money, until the amount STOCKS. is ascertained, being obliged only to deposit it as di- The question then being on agreeing to the recom rected. Now it would not be right to allow a city I mendation of the committee, the sanie was agreed to. such as Cincinnati, Dayton, or Columbus, to do that, The committee on Revision, &c., also recommend which is refused to a rail road or other internal im- ed that the following words be inserted in section two, provement corporation. The true course would be to after the words "public purpose," to wit: "'Public li apply the same rule to all, and I think the Convention braries and houses or buildings used exclusively for rhould be willing to make the same rule for both literary, scientific and educational purposes." cases. The question being on agreeing to the recommen If the amendment were so modified, as to say that mendation of the committee. the money shall be first deposited, leaving the bal- Mr. HOLT moved to amend the amendment by -ance of the section as it is-that is, allowing no de- adding at the end thereof, the foilowing, "from which duction for benefits, requiring the money to be first no private profit shall be derived."' paid or deposited, and securing to the citizen, a jury Mr. WOODBURY moved the previous question. of twelve men in a court of record, I can see no ob- The question then being, "shall the main question jection to it. Let me be understood. I prefer that be now put?" it was agreed to. Ihe money should be first paid in all cases, and have The question then being on Mr. HOLT'S amend so argued and voted; but let us have the sam(e rule ment. or as good a rule for an internal improvement cor- Mr. EWART demanded the yeas and nays. which poration as for a town or city. The people have no were ordered, and resulted, yeas 56, nays 32, as folmore partiality for cities, than they have for turnpikes lows: or rail roads; and it is better that we should be uni- YEAS-Messrs. Barbee, Barnett of Preble, Blair, Cahill, form-treat the city no better than the turnpike. Chambers, Chaney, Clark, Collings, Curry, Dorsey, Ewing, Mr. SAWYER. -I desire to ask of the commnittee Farr, F'orbes, Grav, Greene of D)efiance, Gregg, Hard, Hen dersoni, Hitchcock of Ge.-aug-a, Holmes, Holt, Hootman, whether it has changed the phraseology of this amend- Humphrevrs ille Hut, Johnson, Joies, Kintg, Larwill, Leech, nient from that which was contained in my resolution Leadbetter, Loulndon, Mllanon, Morris, Norris, Orton, Patterof instructions upon this subject. If it has I will no. so, Perkins, tuigle, Ranney, heernelin, tiddle, Roll, Saw longer stand God-father to it. Inasmnuch as the gen- I yer, Scott of Auglaize, Sellers, Smith of yandot, tebbis Stickney,,:truble,, Swlift, Townshend, Vance of Butler, Wav, tiemari from Knox, (Mr. MITCHELL,) has taken me un- Woodbury, Worthington and rsieent-56. r, Way der his especial care, and is about to write a book for NAYs-Messrs. Andrews, Barnet of Montgomery, Bates, my benefit., I desire to be set right upon the subject, Blair, Brown of Carroll, Case of Licking, Cook, Ewart, and if I am to vote upon the amendment, I want it Florence, Gillett, Graham, (;reen of i. oss, G,oesbeck, Ham an i aI atoffe oeupntead Iatit. ilton, Harlan, HIawkins, Horto,a, Hunter, Kirk wood,,arsh, just as I offered it. Lidey, Mason, McCloud, McCormick, Otis, Pecli, Smith of Mr. RANNEY. So far as the first branch of the Highland, Smith of Warren, Stanbery, Stanton, Swan and amendnient is concerned, a slight modification in the Williams-32 language has been made, making the obligation di So the amendment was agreed to. rect, which was circuitous. The amendments were The question then being on the recommendation of iade by the majority of the comnmittee, and I did the commnittee. not concur in them. In the others some alterations Mr. LIDEY demanded the yeas and nays, which have been made, in which I did not concur. I look were ordered, and resulted, yeas 41, lays 47, as folupon the exclusion from taxation of all public pro- lows: perty open to the public use, without compensation, YE,s-Messrs. Andrews Barbee, Bar,et of Montgomery, as too broad. BaInettof Prehle, Bates, Bennett, Blicike sderfer, Brown of Mr. RIDDLE. Unless the amendment prevail, bthe h Carroll, Chambers, Collir gs, Ewart, Ewinsrg, Florence, Gra. ham, Green of Ross, Hamil on, Harlan, litchcock ofGeauga, public institutions at Columbus and the Commercial Holmes, Holt, Horton, Humplireville, Hunter, Johnson, KirkHospital here, will be subject to taxation. wood, Larsh, Manon, Mason, Mlorris, McCloud, Otis, Ileck, Mr. LOUDON. I am not satisfied with the amend- Riddle, Smiith of Highland, Smith of Warrenl, Smith of Wy. ment. I wish the phraseology to be plain and so as andot, Stairbery, Stanton, Swan, Swift and Williams —4. NAYs —S essrs. Blair, Cahill, Case of Lickirig.Chaney,Clark, to be easily understood. It seems to me to be too Cook, Curry, Dorsey. Farr, lForbes, Gillett, Gray, Greene of broad-to embrace too much, and under it, we shall Defianlce, Gregg, Groesbeck, Har-d, Hawkins, Henderson, have the State shingled over with exclusions. Hootman, Hunt, Jones. King Larvwill, Leech, Leadbetter Mr.LAWRENE Mr.President Ihaeoneor Lidey, [eoudon, McCormick, Norris, Orton, Patterson, Per' ,Mr. LAWRENCE. Mr. President: I have one word a. kis quigley, Ranney, Reemr iii, Roll, Sawyer, Scott if Au. to say- before this report passes beyond our action. glaize, Sellers, Stebbins, Stickney, St!:uble, Vance of Butler. It will be perceived that the terms bonds and stocks Way, Woodbury, Worthington and President- 47. where they first occur in the section, tire now inserted So the recommendation of the committee was not in place of the terms used in the original report, agreed to. which received the sanction of a majority of this Con- The question then being, shall the Article be now vention upon several occasions. Why was this enrolled?" it was agreed to. change made? As I understand, and as I have no Mr. STANTON submitted the following, which hesitation in saying it is so understood by this Con- was agreed to: vention, the change in phraseology was made to Resolved, That the Secretary be required to furnish obviate the technical objections of certain members, ~ copy from the enrolled copy of the Constitution as the without wishing or intending to change the substance I enrollment progresses, and have 1,0()0 copies of the of the original report. 1 voted at the time against i Constitution as it is finally adopted, printed immodi 85") OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCH 10. 853 the Secretary. his Assistants, the Door-.keeper, and Sergeatit at-Arms, allow them mileage to and from this session of the Convention, as is allowed to the miemnbers of this body." Mr. LAWRENCE moved to amend the resolution by adding after the words, "Sergeant-at-Arms," the words, "and messenger boys;" -which was disagreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the re solution, Mr. CLARK demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, and resulted-yeas 89, nays 3, as fol lows: Ya.ts-M(-Mssrs. A,,d ew, Barbee, Batnet of Monttomery, Barr;ett of Prelie, Bates, BOn:ett, B.air, lcKeksdrfer, Brown of Ca roll Cahill, (ase of Lickinig, Cltariilers, Ci.-ansv, Col CI te m, Cok Dorsey, Eva,-, Ewiteg, Fair, Florenre, Forbes, Gillett, Grahaiii Gray, Greene of lDefiaTce. Gelgg, G:oesberl, Hariiltoti. Hard, Harlat,, ilawkinis. Heid;sen, Hi,tchliock of Geatiga, Homies, Hoilt, Hootiian, Hoartoi, Huilphreville, Hunit, H"inite r, Jotns-nit, Jones, Kits, Kirkwood, Larshi, Lawrence, l,arw,ill, L-eecl, Leadb:tter, Li-tdorn. Ma,on, Mason, Mitch. teal, Mor.in McCloiil, MtcCori,i,-k, Nash, Norris, Or on, Otis, Paltes Poi, Pe(-k, Per kins, Qtuir.ey, Raniiey, Riddie, RoI.. Sew yvetl,'Scott of A..iaize, helers, Sitilti of H,tl.la-i(1, Snit of Warrein. Smrithl of Wyantidot, S$anI,er3,, Cita,!tori, Stetl,)iis, Slicktney, Stiruble, Swan, Taylor, Triwnilerid. Vanice of Buthletr, MWadp re, Way, WVilliauis, Wilson, Wootibu'y anid Worttl irigitoin —8. NAys-iMessrs. Clarkc Reemneliin anid Swift-3. So the resolution was agreed to. Mr. CHAMBERS submitted the following, whichl was agreed to: "Resolved, That a committee of two members be appointed to take charge of the State property, of every kind, remaining'in College Hall after adjourrinmeit. That such portions thereof as may be suitable for foture use, shall be transported to Columbus, and placed in charge of the Secretairy of State; and the residue of such property to be sold to the best advantage, at private or public sale, to the highest bidder, and tlhe proceeds (after deducting all reasonable expenses and echarges) to be paid into the Treasury of the Stnte, aind the Treasurer's receipt therefor shall be deposited with the Auditor of State." 'The PRESIDENT appointed M3essrs. CiIAMBERS and JONES the committee under the foregoing resulutioll. Mr. GREEN of Ross. I rise to offer a resolution, which I presume will receive the approbation of every gentleman upon the floor. It suflicienitl y explains itself, and comient therefore, might seemn unnecessary. I desire, hlowever, to say a few words. It is usual onr such occasions to offer a complimentary expression of approbation to the r- residing officer-often it is a i-iere empty compliment. I desire that it shall Lot be so considered on this occasion. It would have been best, doubtless, if nothing of partisan spirit had been permitted to mingle in the deBates of thiis body. Under thie circumstances, with tie influences operating upon us, and ill view of the nature of mnan, controlled and governed by such causes, Ihis was not to be expected. That there has been occasionally somethis ng of asperity in our discussions, is "-Rot a subiect of won der. Whether the great work iii which wwe have been so long engaged, a nd whl ich we are about to submit to tfie constituency, shall prove f or good or o therwise, tihe will alone deterfille. I do not desire at this time to enter uponl that qulestion. My purpose is, as one of a political minority upon tl'e foor, taking an humble but attentive part ill thle business, and from 11 constanlt and unbroken attenldanc~e upon the sessions of the body, authorized to speak of all that has transpaired, to bear my testim~zfmy to the fidelity, patieni-ce, dignity anid ability wviid which, undisturbed by party and personal strife on the floor, the arduous dutie~ of the Cha~ir have beenl discharged. I do this, sir, the more cheerfully, be ately for the use of members, and that for the purpose of fuirnishing copy he may employ such addition. al clerical force as may be necessary." Mr. SAWYER submitted the following: Resolved, That the Secretary of this Convention be allowed two dollars per day, in addition to the sum heretofore prescribed, for his services; and that each of the Assistant Secretaries be allowed one dollar per (lay n addition to the suDm heretofore prescribed for their services." Mr. PERKINS. I have no desire to oppose the adoption of the resolution, nor to expressa. opinion as to the me rits of the parties contemnplated i t t hee resol utio n, but I will merely read th e twenty-ninth section of the constitution we have made, which is to be the rule of act ion to the Legisl atu re, upo n this sobject. It -is as follows: "No e xtra compensation shall be made to any officer, pubi lic agent. o;' conti actor, after the service shall have been rendered, or the contract ent ered into; nor shall any money be p aid, or any claim, the subject matter of which shall not have been provided for by pre-existing law, unless such comr. pensation, or claim, be allowed by two-thids of the ritemberis elected to each branch of the General Assembly." I hope, th e refore, Mr. President, as w e have adopt ed the d emoc ratic rule, requiring a two thirds majority, we shall not break it ourselves. Mr. SAWYER. I am well aware of this feature in t he c onstitution, nevertheless I desire that we uhall pay ourassistants, and pay them well; an pw d I believe frnem my own knowl edge of thei r services, tha t thevy are justIv entitled to addit ional compensation. The gentleman from Hamilton, (Mr. GROESBnCK,) referred the other day to the compensation paid to the secretaries of other bodies similar to ours, from which it appears that in AMaryland, Virginia, New York and Indiana, a larger number of assistants were employed, at a higher rate of compeusatioin, and however desirous I am (and gentlemen will give me credit for some vigilance in that respect) to keep a close guard over thi, treasury, I am neither ashamed nor afraid to allow men ill offi,-ial positions a full compensation where they have merited it. Mr. MITCHELL moved the previous question. The question then being,'snall the main question be now put?" it was agreed to. The question then being on the adoption of the res,olution, Mr. AIANON demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered and resulte.d-yeas 31, nays 52, as fol lows: YE:,-Messs. Aidrews, Barniet of Montg,omery-, Barnett of P,eh!e.B aid, Farr,Gree,, of Ross, G:,'oesier, Ho aues, Hootman, Ho)rtori. Hunt, Jones, King, l,a,'lq, Lawrence, Leech, Maso,, Mitchell~ Mt~arnoick. Orton Peck, Risdle, Atoll. Sawyer, Sel lers,S'mith of Highland, Stanlery, Swani, Williamtis, Wilson and Worthington-31, N'Axs —/-simss. Barlee, Bennett, B':icken.sde,rer, Brown of Ca,'voil, CatiUl, Case of L;-kinl,, Cham,ey. C'ark, ColTings. ('ook. D(-orsay, Ewa.l, Ewing, Fiorence, F,ors e-, Gillett, G-a,"a,,,, G-:een- of De,-f'ianre, Gieeg. Hard. Ha,la-, H.Iwk,lis, He;:derson, Hit,-thcork of C-eauga, H,'t. H-iinhir-e ville,Jhsw:ii~o. Kirkwood, Larwill, La,iey, Loudon, Malion Morris, MdcCloud, Norris, Otis, Patrson, Perkins, Quialev Reemelini, ScottofAuglaize.sL,,ilh ofiWarrse,rStStanton Steb bins Str,i',!:,~ Swift, Tavsor,T,)wnsllend, Vance of But:er' War Fell a d Wooallayur-52.: So the resolution was disagreedt6ct. Mr. LAWRENC3E submitted the following: "Resolved. That the thanks of this Convention be tendered to the C~lergymen1 of this city, through whose kindness and attention the daily sessions of the Convention were opened with prayer. And that a copy of the bound debates he furnishedby the Secretary of State to each of the C:lergymene who have officiated in CSolumblus and Cincinnati." Which was agreed to. Mr. CASE of Licking, submitted the following: "Resolved, That the- President in auditing the accounts of OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MonDAY, M.~RcI 10. cause of certain misgivings whichI may have given utterance to during the first days of our deliberations in coinvention. I repeat, therefore, I desire to express mnore than a formal compliiuent-t o offer the well de served meed of praise to a meritorious public officer. I therefore offer for adoption, the resolution which I send to the Chair. Mgr. GREEN of Ross, then submitted the follow ing: "Resolved, That the thanks of this Convention are due, and hereby tendered, to tle Hon. WILLIAMa MEF DILL, for the dignity, courtesy, patience and ability with which he has presided over its deliberations." Mr. CHIAMBERS asked if the word "*patieceC" wNas in; if not, he thought it should be, with an emphasis. (Laughter.) Mr. WILLIAMS. As a farther mark of respect for the President of this body, I propose that the resolu tion record the remarkable fact, that during a session i of five months and a half, during which, at times, party spirit has run high, and perloiial feelings fre quoetly aroused, not oile appeal has been taken from uIe decisions of the presiding officer of this Couven otio. SENRAL VOICES. Agreed -agreed. Mr. HITCHCOCK of Geauga. The debates and proceedings will show the fact allutded to by the gen tieliaai from Warren, [Mr.'WILLIAMS.] T'he question being on the adoption)i of the resolution offered by Mr. GRNatt, Mr. LAW!TENCE demanded the yeas and nays, which were ordered, ald resulted-yeas 69, nays neon e, as follows: Ba.,s-/ilessrs. An1drews, Barliee. Bairi)et of Monitgonnmery. ]]a!-J,'t ot Prel):e, Bs tes, Bi.ttitt, Blar, rBlicveslns.r feirown o Caroel, Carill. Crase l Lit'kii.g, Uttai ie,is,i:aney, (;lark, Call'ngs o,o, Co E,Do' St,y,, I'art, Ewig, rl, it wre,e, a,)rrdes Gil; tt, av, Gi GC, eee oi D..at.ce, G eeii of Res% Gregg, r t: oesI;;c ilti, HaOio, Hard, Hawkiis, Hendterson, H trni.o i of G-ia Hom, es, Hlolt, tHoutliia, lHotoji, HiiiipirvileTe, kitusi, Hluituie,,,,I sol, Josles, Ki ll, K,iwocd. l,ar)i, Law - il ne, larwibd, 1 y e: h-dL-t:y, Luidon,M aio, Masoni, MiLchell, MIf~rr,.-:, Mc1C,,*utl,,McCo ct, (SuNjrrl.-, O.ton, Oii, Pit,rsoIl, fck. IPc~ ai::s, ~i,;ley, HRaney, Reee ii, Riid(lie, Ra)il, Sawy r,&ott of AuglaIze, Sl elsl, St i lh of Higilaid, Sutilt ofv I/a/rcll, Slllttl O[ }}"yalilor,;~.a lbery, Stantons,~tmluins, S~ick. aey, blrucie,Swn, l,'.~alitt, TayloTr,TowslJei, Vaitce of Bit. let, Warrienl, W'ay, Vfiilianls, ~.isu,, ~r)ot1ur-y ati,, WuorLhingoto,1 —89. So the Risolus ion w ias unanimously adopted. Airr. STAINBERY submitted tie Jollowitig, which was agreed to aiiiiiii lioueI-y: "Resolved, That the thl-atnks of this,Convention be and they are hereby tendered to ~villiant 1. Gill, tlhe becretary and his t A,,ss.istants, for tlie lacltlu a nd efficienh t discharge oi theilr du ties as offit;e, fo the san-I." MVlr. 6rANBPSKTY submitted the following, wl-ichi was agreed to Ut ouIllO.s'h: "1e.so ve-, T']hij.t tie timnks of this Con)ivention be and they are hereby tendtered to J. V. btsith, the ieporter, arnd to his Assistaits, fir the aithliul atid eflicient discharge lf their of-. liLial duties." iv~r. Evv ART submitted tl'e following: "R so'ted, Thiat the Committee onl llevisioni be instructed so to amend the frti LeC oil Public Works, that the members of the,ciard of Public i) oIrks shall hold their oclices until their ternis shall expire, anid that thle saiie CommMittee asuend tile Sciedule so thiat lhe Treasure,' andti Secietary oft State shall hold thleir offices until the second M2onday ci Februai y, 1853s." O~n mnotionl of Mr. RANNE~, the Resolution was9 laid on the table. Mr. CASE, of Lickinig, snbmiiitted the following, which was agreed to: "/Reesl ed,'That the thanks of this Convention be and they are lteitby tendeied to the iergeant-at-Armis, Doorkeeper, aud 3iesstqober Iloys for the fait[utl discharge of theirduties." The (oiiveiilioi titen took uop thle irtrole on Aliscelluneous Sutijects aod Propositions, as reported back by lihe Conmmittee on Rovisioii, as foliows, to wit: ARTICLE XV. MISCELLANEOUS. SEC. 1. Columbus shall be the s eat of governamsenal until otherwise directed by law., SEC. 2. The printing of the laws, j4ournals, bills legislative documents,. and p apers for each branch o f thte General Assemblv, with the printing required for the Executive and other departrrents of State, shall be let on contract to the lowest responsible bidder, b such Executiv e officers, and i n such nanner as silei be prescribed by law. SEC. 3. An accurate alld detailed statement of thet receipts an d e xpenditures of the public toney, the several am ounts paid, to vhoin, an d on wh at account, shall, from t tim t o time, be published a 8s shall b) pre scribed by law. SEC. 4. No person shall be elected or appointed to, any office in tllis State, unless he po ss ess the qtalis cations of an elector. SEc 5. No parson who shall hereafterfight a duel, assist ini the same as second, or SeD(l, aCCept, oYr kino winiglyca y carry a chal lenge therefor, shall hold any office in th i s State. SEC. 6. Lotteries, and the sale of lottery ticketAs for any purpose whatever, shall forever be irohibited in thi s State. Sac. 7. Ev ery person chosen or appointed to any office under this State, before entering uponi the dis charge of its duties, shall take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitutioni of the UJnited States, and of this State, and also an oath of office. SEc. 8. There may be established in the Secretary of State'q office, a bureau of statistics, under such regulations as may be prescribed by law. The question then being, "shtall the Article I* enrolled," it was agreed to. Mr. RIDDLE submitted the following: Resolved, That the Conmmittee or Revisiton be iL,struLtedl to insert the following provision in the Article on "Miscella I'OU~.' "The- Governor shall have power after five years to pardon, all persons, who shall in any wise participate in a duel, eittler as principal or seconds, and restore him or them, to all the riahts and privileges, to which he or they were ectitled before such participation.'" Ol motion of Mr. MANON, the Resolution was laid on the, table. Mr. McCOR MICK. Mr. President: I rise to correet an error in the debates. In the published report of my remarks, on the sub-. jeet of the retail of ardenit spirits, I amr miiade to say, "the Courts inherit their jurisdiction in matters of Divorce, frorn the come)ol law." I hope this Convention does me the justice to believe I could not have rmiade so foolish a remnark; and I do not wish others to whlom I amn a stranger, should be so in1formed. Mr. M1ITCHEL,L submittrd the following. "Resolv,ed, That when this Convention takes a recess thix day at noon, it.hall be at four o'click t'. M., and that hereafter no proposition for alteration or amendnment shall b rnade, except upon the unanimous consent of the Conve,ition." Mr. GREEN, of Ross, demanded a division. TI'he question th en being oa tie. first brancI of tfe Resolution, it was asreed to. The question then:,biin on the secon~d branchX of the Resolution; Pendin$ which, On motion of Mr. GREEN, Of Ross, The ConJvention tool a recess until 4 o'clock. -rYEroNa sraso~. 854 4 O'CLOC.K, P. M. Mr. CASE of LickinL,. from the select comm.te o which was referred the rsolutioia relative to bind OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MON'AY, MARCH 10. iing and publication of the debates and proceedings of this Co,iventlon, submitted the following resolution, as aE part of their report: "Resolved, That it is inexpedient to publish the Journal of this Convention in book form, separate and apart fiom the 'proceedings and debates." This resolution was unanimously concurred in, and recommended-by the committee, consisting of Messrs. Orton, Groesbeck, Taylor, Staiton and Blicketsederfer, and was agreed to by the Convention, with but a single vote in the negative. In consequence of this decision of the Convention, the Reporter ha,st in addition to his report of the debates, kept n file and perfect journal of the proceedings, omitting lothing. This journal is properly interspersed throughout the debates, by which it is fully explained. The journal lfept by the Reporter is exactly thie sarrme as that kept by the Clerk. It will be seen, then, t ha t no useful p urpose can be subserved by the publication of the journal separately, unless, indee d, it is to be done fe or the sole ani exclusive benefit of the Printer t o the Convention. Tile journal, a t s it is alrea dy pr inted with the debates, is in a much more readable form, and much better for reference thant it would be separate and by itself. Mr. MANON. I am decidedly op posed to this resolution, for the separ at e priuting of the journal. A per fect journal of th t ion is Convention is interwoven with tile debates, and of these we avit already ordered three taouHand copies to be printed. To print the bare jourcral of t his Cunventioa separately, would be ridiculous -nobody w ould rearl it, but like the journals of t he Legislature, i t would lumber up tee sheltves of tihe, public libraries. For my own part, I would not ecep t of the journal of this Covtnventio n as a gift, if )rintedi sepa rately, because we have it printed with thie debates, where it properly belongs. The question then being on the adoption of the res-t oluti(,n, (Mr. SawYer's,) Mr. MANON oemanded the yeas and nays, wh ich were ordered, and resu lt ed yeas 32, no a ys 52, as follows: Yv.~s~Iessr'. B' ai. Bqeken&lsder;fe~, Cabi{I, Cbanev!, Ewsing,l Fare, F G's recmle ot Defidince, G:egr, Hard, Hocliest, H,)mtJnan, rtlnt, Jo, es. Iiliu, Lawrerce. Leech, Lidothi, Loulso,,. MaMo., MeC,rti',k, Norris O. ton, Pattenson, Qwi.he ee Riddle!,, Roll, Sawyer, Stickney, Wilson, Woodbury ala Presid,e,d:~3o* w'ysh-om a-esst ms. Bard,ee, Bariet of Motntgt eb y Bartiett of Prel:le, Bates, uBedjeetLt, Bdnowly n' Carthel, CAas{ates, C'ark, Coliills Cots arisinclearly expressed in its title; and no law shall be * i * arig .ut of their want of coniformity l tt the laws of this revived, or amended, unless thle new act contain the t ate. I ~~~~~~~~State. entire ac revived, or the section or sections a mensation hll bde ad to e, ~~~~~~~~Sr~. 29. Nho extra compensation shall be made to and the section, or sections so amended, ~hall be re1and the section, or sections, so ameded, shall be re- any officer, public agent, or contractor, after the ser pealed. 1 hepeiigoicrfeavice shall have been rendered, or the contract entered SEC. 17. The presiding officer of each'louse shall into n . A. ~~~~~~inlito; nor, shall alns money be paid, on any claim, sign, publicly, in the presence of the House over which the o s hal l anae bei p, o ,.. ~~~~~~~~the subject matter of wrhiet shall nort have beent prolhe presides, while the same is in session, and capable of v e r b wi a n sv bei i..... s. 1 Mol~~vdedl for by we-existing law, unxless such commenttransacing business, all bills and joint resolutions pass- sation or cai, be alpoe Ted sy two-thirds of the ed by the Getiral Assembly.sation, or claim, be allowed by two-thirds of tlie ed by the, General Assemqbly. |members elected to each branch of the General is SEC. 18. The style of the laws of this State shall be, enbl "Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of.sll Ohio." fSac. 30. No new county shall contuain less than SEC. 19. No Senator or Representative shall, during four hundred square miles of teritory, nor, shall the ternm for which he shall have been elected, or for any county be reduced below that arounit; and all one year thereafter, be appointed to any civil office laws creating new countie s, changiug ceuity lies, under this State, which shall be created, or the eamolr or removing counity seats, shall, 1eft,(re taking effect, urlieats of which shall have been increased, during the be submitted to the electors of the several coauntiaes term for wich he shal have been elected. to be affected thereby, at the next genieral electiotn SEC. 20. The General Assembly, in eases not provi- after the passage thereof, and be adopted by a maded for in this Constitution, shall fix the term of office, Jrity of all the electors votiig at such eletion, in and the compensation of all officers; but no change eof said counties; but h nr coudnty oun or hereattherein shall affect the salary of any officer during his containing one hudred tlusand inhabitants, existing term, uniless the office be abolished. may be divided, whenever a najoity of the voters SEC. 21. The General Assembly shall determine,.by residing in each of the proposed divisions, shall up.law, before what authority, and in what manner, the prove of thle law passed for that purpose; but no trial of contested elections shall be conducted. town or city withiin the same, shall be divided, nor, Sac. 22. No money shall be drawn from the treas- shall either of the divsions contaia less than twenty ury, except in pursuance of a specific appropriation, thousand inhabitants. made by law; and no appropriation shall be made for Ssa. 31. The membeis and offiers ao toe Generd a longer period than two years. Assembly shal receive a fixed cumpensation, to be SEc. 23. The House of Representatives shall have prescribed by law, and uc other allowance or perqui; the sole power of impeachment, but a majority of the sites, either in the payineut of postage or otherwisemembers elected must concur therein. Impeach and no change in their compensation shall take effete me,its shall be tried by the Senate; and the Senators, during their term of office. h hen sitting for that purpose, shall be upon oath or Stca. 32. The General Assembly shall grant no die .858 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATE-MoNDAY, MARCH 10. vorce, nor exercise any judicial power, not herein expressly conferred. tence, its date, and the date of the commutation, pardon, or reprieve, with his reasons therefor. SEc. 12. There shall be a seal of the State, which shall be kept by the Governor, and used by himn officially, and shall be called "The Great Seal of the State of Ohio" SEc. 13. All grants and commissions shall be issued in the name, and by the authority of the State of Ohio sealed with the Grea t Seal; signed by the Governor, and coun tersigned by the Secretary of State. SEC. 14. No member of Congress, or other person holding of fice unde r the authority of this State, or of the United Stat es, shall execute the offi ce of Governor except as herein provided. SEC. 15. In cas e of the dethh, impeachment, resignation, rem o va l, or other disability o f t he Governor, the powers and duties of the office for the residue of the term, or until he shall be acquitted, or the disability removed, shall devolve upon the Lieutenant Governor SEC. 16. The Lieutenant Governor shall be Preeidenit of the Senate, but shall vote only when the Senate is equally divided; and in case of his absence or impeachmenit, or when he shall exercise the office of Goverlior, the Senate shall choose a President pro tempore. SEC. 17. If the Lieutenant Governor, while executiijg the office of Governor, shall be impeached, displaced, resign, or die, or otherwise become incapable of perfornming the duties of the office, the President of the Senate shall act as Governor until the vacancy is filled, or the disability removed; and if the President of the Senate, for any of the above causes, shall be rendered incapable of performing the duties pertaining to tite office of Governor, the same shall devolve upon the Speaker of the House of Representatives. SEC. 1R,. Should the office of Auditor, Treasurer Secretary, or Attorney General becomes vacant for any of the causes specified in the fifteenth sectioni of this article, the Governor shall fill the vacancy until the disability is removed, or a successor is elected and qualified. Every such vacancy stall be filled by elect;on, at the first general election that occurs more than thirty days after it shall have happened;and the person chosen shall hold the office for the full term fixed in the seo ond section of this article. SEC. 19. The officers mentioned in this article, shall at stated times,receive,for their services,a compe nsation to be es'ablislhed by law, which shall neither be increased nor diminished, during the period for which they shall have been elected. SEc. 20. The officers of the executive department. and of the public State institutions. shall, at least five days preceding each regular session of the General Assembly, severally report to the Governor, who shall transmit such reports with his message, to the General Assembly. ARTICLE III. EXECUTIVE. SEC. 1. The Executive Department shall consist of a Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, Auditor, Treasurer, and an Attorney General, who shall be chosen by the Electors of the State on thg second Tuesday of October, and( at the places of voting for members of the General Assembly. SEC. 2. The() Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, Treasurer, and Attorney General, shall hold their officea for two years; and the Auditor for four years. Their terms of office shall commence on the second Monday of January next after their election, and continue until their successors are elected and qualified. SEC. 3. The return~s of every election for the officers named in the foregoing section, shall be sealed up and transmitted to the seat of Government, by the returning offictrs, directed to the President of the Senate, who, during the first week of the session, shall open and publish them, and declare the result, in the presence of a majority of the members of each House of the General Assembly. The person having the highest number of votes shall be declared duly elected; but if anv two or more shall be highest, and equal in votes, for the same office, one of them shall be chosen by the joint vote of both Houses. SEC. 4. Sheould thele be no session of the General Assembly inl January next after an election for any of the officers aforesaid, the returns of such election shall be made to the Secretary of State, and opened, and the result declared by the Governor in such manner as may be provided by law. SEC. 5. The supreme executive power of thisl State shall be vested in the Governor. SEC. 6. He may require information in writing, fromnthe officers in the executive department, upona any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices; and shall see that the laws are faithfully executed. SEc. 7. He shall communicate, at every session by message, to the General Assembly, the condition of the State, and recommend such measures as he shall deem expedient. SEC. 8. He mayr, on extraordinary occasions, convene the General Assembly by proclamation, and shall state to both Houses, when assembled, the purpose for which they have been convened. SEC. 9. Ill case of disagreement between the two Houses,in respect to the time of adjournment, he shall have power to adjourn the Generat Assembly to such time as he may think proper, but not beyond the regular meetitigs thereof. SEC. 10. He shall he commander-in-chlief of the mnilitary and naval forces of the State, except when they shall be called into the service of the United States. SEC. 11. He shall have power, after conviction, to grant reprieves, commnutations, and pardlons, for all crimes and offences, except treason and cases of irnp)eachmuent, upon schli conditions as he may think proper; sibject, h)-wever, to such regulations as to the manner of applying for pardons, as may be prescribed by law. Upon conviction for treason, he may suspend the ex:ecution of the sentence, and report the case to the General Assembly at its next meeting, when the General Assembly shall either pardon, commute the sentence, direct its executionr or grant a further reprieve. He shall communicate to the General Aesembey, at every regular session, eacl e case of reprieve, commutatioi or pardon granted n stating the name and crime of the convict, the se ip JUDICIAL. SEC. 1. The judicial power of the State shall be vested in a Supreme Court, in District Courts, Courts of Common Pleas, Courts of Probate, Justices of the Peace. and in such other Courts inferior to the Supreme Court, in one or more counties, as the General Assembly, may, from time to time, establish. Se,c. 2. The Supreme Court shall consist of five judges a majority of whom shall be necessary to form a quorum, or to pronounce a decision. It shall have; original jurisdiction in quo warrante, mnatdanrus, ha* beas corpus, and procedendo, and such appellate juris.ictioni as may be provided by law. It shall hold at least one term, in each year, at the seat of governtauent, and such other terms, at the seat of government or elsewhere, as may be provided by law. The J-udges 859 ARTICLE IV. 'n OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCi 10. of the Supreme Court shall be elected by the electors elected and qualified, and such successor shall be of the State at large. elected for the unexpired term, at the first annual SEc. 3. The State shall be divided into nine corn- election that occurs more than thirty days after the mon pleas districts, of which the county of Hamilton vacancy shall have happened. shall constitute one, of compact territory and bounded SEc. 14. The Judges of the Supreme Court and of by county lines; and each of said districts, consisting the Court of Common Pleas shall, at stated times, re of three or more counties, shall be subdivided into three ceive for their services such compensation as may be parts of compact territory, bounded by county linies, provided by law, which shall not be diminished, or and as nearly equal in population as practicable; in increased, during their term of office; but they shall each of which one Judge of the court of common pleas receive no fees or perquisites, nor hold any other of for said district, and residing therein, shall be elected fice of profit or trust under the authority of this State, by the electors ofsaid subdivision.. Courts of common or the United States. All votes for either of them, pleas sHall be held by one or more of these Judges, in for any elective office, except a judicial office under every county in the district, as often as may be provi- the authority of this State, given by the General As ded by law; and more than one court or sitting thereof, sembly, or the people, shal be void. may be held at the same time, in each district. SEC. 15. The General Assembly may increase or SEC. 4. The jurisdiction of thle courts of common diminish the number of the Judges of the Supreme pleas and o'f the Judges thereof, shall be fixed by law. Court, the number of the districts of the Court of Com SEC. 5. District courts shall be composed of the mon Pleas, the number of Jutdges in any district; Judges of the court of common pleas of the respective] change the districts or the subdivisions thereof, or districts, and one of the Judges of the supreme court. establish other courts, whenever two-thirds of the any three of whom shall be a quorum, and shall be held members elected to each house shall concur therein; inieach county therein, at least onceqin each year; but, but, no such change, addition, or diminution, shall if it shall be found inexpedient to holc such court an- vacate the office of any Judge. nually in each county of any district, the General As- SEC. 16. There shall be elected in each county, by sembly may, for such district, provide that said court the tlectors thereof. one Clerk of the Court of Com shall hold at least three annual sessions therein, in mon Pleas, who shall hold his office for the term of not less than three places; provided, that the General three years,and until hissuccessorshall be elected and Assembly may, by law, authorize the Judges of each i qualified. He shall, bv virtue of his office, be Clerk district to fix the times of holding the courts therein. of all other courts of record held therein; but, the SEC. 6. The district court shall have like original General Assembly may provide by law fi:r the election jurisdiction with the supreme court, and such appellate of a Clerk with a llke term of office, for each or anyv jurisdiction as may be provided by law. other of the Courts of Record, and may authorize tlhe SEc. 7. There shall be established in each county a Judge of the Probate Court to perform the duties of probate court whith shall be a court of record, open at Clerk for his Court, under such regulations as may all times and holden by one Judge elected by the votes be directed by law. Clerks of Courts shall be remove of the county, who shall hold his office for the term of able for such cause, and in such nanner, as shall be three years, and shall receive such compensation prescribedby law. payable out of the county Treasury, or by fees, or both SEC. 17. Judges may be removed from office by as shall be provided by law., concurrent resolution of both Houses of the General Assembly, if two-thirds of the members elected to SEC. 8. The Probate ourt shall have jurisdict ioneach House concur therein; but no such removal shall in p robate and testan)entay matters, the appointme nth be made, except upon complaint, the substance of of admini strators and guardians, the settlement of the which shall be entered on the journial, nor until the accounts of executors, administrators and guardians party charged shall have had notice thereof, and an and such jurisdiction in habeas corpus, the issuing of epportunity to be heard. marriage licenses, and for the sale of land by executors, SEC. 18. The several Jud,ges of the Supreme Court, administrators and guardians, and such other juris- of the Common Pleas, and of such other Courts as diction in any county or counties, as may be provided may be created, shall respectively have and exercise by law. by law. such power and iurisdiction, at chambers, or other SEC. 9. A competent number of justices of the peace wise, as may be directed by law. shall be elected, by the electors, in each township in SEC. 19. The General Assembly may establish the several counties. Their term of office shall be Courts of Conciliation, and prescribe their powers three years, and their powers and duties shall be regu- and duties; but such Courts shall not render final ted by law. sbiso yte Sc. 10. All udges, other than those provided by law.for judgment in any case, except upon submission by the Sc. 10. A judges, other than those provided for parties of the matter in dispute, and their agreement in this Constitution, shall be elected by the electors of to abide such judgment. thejudicial district for which they may be created, but SEc. 20. The style of all process shall be "The not for a longer term of office than five years. State of Ohio;" all prosecutions shall be carried on SEC. 11. The Judges of the Supreme Court shall, in the name and by the authority of the State of Ohio; immediately after the first election under this Consti- and all indictments shall conclude "against the peace tution, be classified by lot; so that one shall hold for and dignity of the State of Ohio." the term of one year, one for two years, one for three ARTICLE V. years, one for four years, and one for five years; and at ELECTIVE FRANCHISE. all subsequent elections the term of each ofsaid Judges SEc. 1. Every white male citizen of the United shall be for five years. States, of the ageof twenty oneyears, who shallhave SEC. 12. The Judges ofthe Courts of Common Pleas been a resident of the State one year next preceding shall, while in office, reside in tile district for which the election, and of the county, township or ward, in they are elected; and their term of office shall be for which he resides, such time as may be provided by five years. law, shall have the qualifications of an elector, and SEc. 13. In case the office of any Judge shall be- be entitled to vote at all elections. come vacant before the expiration of the regular term SEC. 2. All elections shall be by ballot. for which he was elected, the vacancy shall be filled SEC. 3. Electors, during their attendance at eleeby appointment by the Governor, until a successor is tions, and in going to and returning therefrom, shall 860 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MoNDAY, Mi RCH 10. be privileged from arrest in all cases, except treason, SEC. 3. Except the debts above specified in secfelony, and breach of the peace. tions one and two of this article, no debt whatever SEC. 4. The G(n,eral Assembly shall have power to shall hereafter be created by or on behalf of the State. exclude from tt, privilege of voting, or of being eli. SEac. 4. The credit of the State shall not, in any gible to offi(!t, Ia,v person convicted of bribery, per- manner, be given or loaned to, or in aid of, any indijury, or other iiif'iluous crime. vidua], association or corporation whatever; nor shall SEac. 5. No person in the military, naval or marine the State ever hereafter become a joint owner,orstockservice of the Unlited States, shall, by being stationed holder, in any company or association in this State in any garrison or military or naval station within or elsewhere, formed for any purpose whatever. the State, be considered a resident of this State. SEC. 5. The State shall never assume the debts of SEac. 6. N o idiot or insane person, shall be entitled any county, city, town, or township, or of any corport o the p ri vileges of an elector. ation whatever, unless such debt shall have been cre ARTICLE VI. ated to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, or' defend EDUCATION. the State in war. SEc. I. The principal of all funds arising from the SEc. 6. The General Assembly shall never authorsale or other disposition of lands, or other property ize any county, city, town or township, by vote of its granted or entrusted to this State for educational and citizens, or otherwise to become a stockholder in any religious purposes,, shall forever be preserved ia ctzn,ovterie obcm sokodri n religious purposes, asheand forever be pr eserved invio- joint stock company, corporation, or association whatlate, and undiminished; and, the income arising there- ever; or to raise money for or loan its credit to, or in fromni shall be faithfully applied to the specific objects aid of, an y such company, corporation, or association. of the original gr'ants or appropriations. aysc opn,croain rascain of' te original graAnt s or appropriation s c p SEc. 7. The faith of the State being pledged for the vSEc n2. The geaneral Asosemb,y shall make such pro- payment of its public debt, in order to provide therevisions by taxation, or otherwise, as with the income for, there shall be created a sinking fund, which shall arising fromn the school trust fund, will secure a be sufficient to pay the accruing interest on such debt, thorougho and efficient system,bt[ of comton schoolsr and,annually, to reduce the principal thereof, by a sum throughout the State, but no religious or other sector.not less than one hundred thousand dollars, icreased sects shall ever have any exclusive right to, or control not less ta on e hundred thousand dollars, increased of, any part of the school fund.s of this State. yearly, and each and every year, by compounding, at ARTICLE VITI. the rate of six per cent. per annunm. The said sinking fund shall consist, of the net annual income of the pub PUBLiC INIsTITUTions oreofhiselic works and stocks owned by the State, of any other SEc. 1. Instituions for the benefit of the insane, funds or resources that are, or may be provided by law, blind, and deaf and dumb, shall always be fostered and of uch further sum, to be rosed by taxation, pported by the State- ~ ~ ~ and bt8tj+tt ~c 8( of,uch further sum, to be rsii-,ed bv -taxatio,a and supported by the State; and be subject to such may be required for the purposes aforesaid. regulations as may be prescribed by the General A SE 8. The Auditor of State, Secretar of State, ~~~~rsemuo iePlbley. Ib e land Attorney General, are hereby created a board of SEc. 2. The Directors of tie Penitentiary shall be -soners, to be styled "The Commissioners of the appointed or elefted in such a manner as the General S Xking Fund." Assembly may direct; and the Trustees of the benevo. lentand, other State institutions, now elected by the SEc. 9. The Commissioners of the Sinking Fund e ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~hall, immediately,)receding each regular session of General Assembly, and of such other State institutions of as may be hereafter create.l, lshall be appointed by the the General Assembly, make an estimate of the probaGovernor, by and with the advice and consent of the bleamount of the fund, provided for in the seventh secSenate, and upon all nominations made by the Gover- tion of this articlt., from all sources except from taxanor, the questioni shall be taken by the yeas and nays tion, and report the same, together with -lI their proand enterod upoii the journals of the Senate. ceedings relative to said fund and the public debt, to SEC. 3. The Governor shall have power to fill all the Governor, who shall transmit the sane, with his vacancies that may occur in the officesaforesaid, until regular message, to the General Assembly and the the next session of the General Assemblv, and, until General Assembly shall make all necessary provision a successor to his appointee shall be confirnmad and for raising and disbursing said sinkiug fund, in pursuqualified. -ance of the provisions of this article. ARTICLE VIII. ARTICLE VIII. SEc. 10. It shall be the duty of the said Commis PUBLIC DEBT AND PUBLIC WORnS. sioners faithfully to apply said fund, together with all SEC. 1. The State nma.y contract debts to supply moneys that may be, by the General Assembly. approeasual deficits or failures in revenues, or to meet ex- priated to that object, to the payment of the interest penses not otherwise provided for; but the aggregate as it becomes due, and the redemption of the princiamount of such debts, direct and contingent, whether pal ofl the public debt of the Stae, excepting only the contracted by virtue of one or more acts of the Gen- und d y the eral Assembly, or at different periods of time, shall SEc. lI. The said Commissioners shiall,semi-anntnever exceed seven hundred and fifty tllhousand dol- ally, make a full and detailed report of their proceed lars; and the money arising from the creation of such ilgs to the Governor, who shall,iinaiediately,cause the debts,shall be applied to the purpose for which it was same to be published, and shall also communicate the obtained, or to repay the debts so contracted, and to same to the General Assembly, forthwith, if it be in no other purpose whatever. session, and if not, then at its first session after such Sea. 2. In addition to the above limited power the report shall be made. State may contract debts to repel invasion, suppress Sac. 12. So Iong as this State shall have public insurrection, defend the State in war, or to redeem the works which require superintendence, there shall be a present outstanding indebtedness of the State: but Board of Public Works, to consist of three members, the money, arising from the contracting of such debts who shall be elected by the people, at the first general shall beappliedto the purpose for which itwas raised, election after the adoption of this Constitution; one or to repay such debts, axd to no other purpose what- for the term of one year, one for the term of two ever; and all debts, incurred to redeem the present years, and otie for the term of three years, and one outstanding indebtedness of the State, shall be so member of said Board shall be elected annually therecontracted as tio be payable by the sinking fund here- after, who shall hold his office for three years. 'mafter provided for as the same shall accumulate. I Sac. 13. The powers and duties of said Board of 861 OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES -MoN'AY, MARCH 10. Public Works, and its several members, and their compensation, shall be such as now are, or may be, proscribed by law. t t r fourths over, shall be entitled to two Representatives; every county containing three times said ratio, shall be entitled to three Representatives, and so on, requiring, after the first two, an entire ratio for each additional Representative. SEc. 3. When any county shall have a fraction above the ratio, so large, that being multiplied by five, the result will be equal to one or more ratios, additional Representatives shall be apportioned for such ratios, among the several sessions of the decennial period, in the following manner: If there be only one ratio, a Represeintative shall be allotted to the fifth session of the decennial period; if there be two ratios, a Representative'shallibe allotted to the fourth and third sessions, respectively: if three, to the third, second and, first sessions respectively; if four, to the fourth, t hird, second, and first sessions respectively. Sec. 4 Any county, fo rmi ng, with an othe r county or counties, a Representativ e district, during one de cenSiTal period, if it h ave a cqui red sufficient populatioon at the next decennia l peri od, s hall be entitle d to a separate representation, if there shall be left in the district from which it shall have bee n separate d, a population sufficient for a representative; but no suchi change shall be made, ex cept at a regular decenial period for the apportioineint of representatives. Src. 5. If, in fixing any subsequent ratio, a county, previously entitled to a se pa rate representation, shall Iave less ha sn than t e number required by the new ratio for at representative, such county shall be attached to the cou nty a(joining it, having the least number of inhz,bitaiits; and the representation of the, districtso formed, shall be determined as herein provided. S6c. 6. The ratio for a Senator sh a ll, for ever herearafter, be asertained by dividing th ae whole population of the State, by the number thirty- five. SEc. 7. The State is hereby divided into thirtythree Senatorial districts, as follows: The county of Hamilton shall constitute the first Senatorial district; the counties of Butler and Warren, the second; Montgomery and Preble,-Ihe third; Clermnoat and Brown, the fourth; Greene, Clinton and Favette, the fifth; Ross and Highland,the sixth; Adamns, Pike, Scioto and Jackson, the seventh; Lawrence, Gallia, Meigs and Vinton, the eighth; Athens, Hocking and Fairfield the, ninth; Franklin and Pickaway the, tenth; Clark, Champaign and Madison the, eleveniith; Miami, Darket and Shelby, tie, twelfth; Logan, Union, Marion and flardin, the thirteenth; Wasiiingti.n and Morgain, the fourteenth; Muskingum and Perry, the fifteenth; Delaware and Lickiizg, the sixteenth; Knox antl Morrow. the seventeenth; Coshocton and Tuscarawas, the eighteenth; Guernsey and Monroe, the nineteenth; Belmont and Ha;rrisort, the twentieth; Carroll and Stark, the twentyfirst; Jefferson and Colunibiana, the twenty-seconid Trumbull and Mahoning, the twenty-third; Ashtabula, Lake and Geauga, the twenity-fourth; Cuyahoga,the twenty-fifth; Portage and Summit, the twenity-sixth; Medina and Lorain, the twenty-seventh; Way ne and Holmes, the twenty-eiglth; Ashland and Richland, the twenty-ninth; Huron, Erie, Sandusky and Ottowa, the thirtieth; Seneca, Crawfor,i, and Wyanidot, the thirty-first; Merter, Auglaize, Alien, Van Wert, Pauldincg, Defiance and Williams, the thirty-second, and Hancock, Wood, Luecas, Fulton, Hensrry arnd Putnam, the thirty-third. For the first decennial period, after the adoption of this constitution1, each of said districts shadl be entitled to one S3enator, except the first district, which shall be entitled to three Senators. SEC. 8. The6 samle rules, shall be applied, ill apportioning the fractions of senatorial districts, and in ar,noxing districts which may hereafter have less thana thlree-foulrths ofra senatorial ratio as are applied to bearesentative districts. ARTICLE IX. MILITIA. SEc. 1. All white male citizens, residents of this State, being eighteen years of age, and under the age of forty-five years, shall be enrolled in the militia, and performn military duty, in such manner, not incompatible with the Constitution and laws of the United States, as may be prescribed by law. SEc. 2. Majors General, Brigadiers General, Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels, Majors, Captains, and Subalterns, shall be elected by the persons subject to military duty, in their respective districts. SEc. 3. The Governor shall appoint the Adjutant General, Quartermaster General, and such other staff officers, as may be provided by law. Majors General, Brigadiers General, Colonels or Commiandants of Regiments, Battallions or Squadrons, shall, severally, appoint their staff, and Captains shall appoint their non-commissioned officers and musicians. SEc. 4. The Governor shall commission all officers of the line and staff, ranking as such, and shall have power to call forth the militia to execute the laws of the State, to suppress insurrection, or to repel invasion. ISEc. 5. The General Assembly shall provide, by law, for the protection and safe keeping of the publie arms. COUNTY AND TOWNSHIP ORGANIZATIONS. SEc. 1. The General Assembly shall provide, by law for the election of such county and township officers as may be necessary. SEC. 2. County officers shall be elected on the second Tuesday of October, until otherwise directed by law, by the qualified electors of each county, in such manner, and for such term, not exceeding three years, as may be provided by law. SEC. 3. No person shall be eligible to the office of Sheriff, or County Treasurer, for more than four years in any period of six years. SEC. 4. Township officers shall be elected on the first Monday of April annually, by the qualified electars of their respective townships, and shall hold their offices for one year from the Monday next succeedinog their election, and until their successors are qualified. Si,:c. 5. No money shall be drawn from any county or township treasury, except by authority of law. SFc. 6. Justices of the peace, and county and town. ship officers, may be removed in such manner, and for such cause, as shall be prescribed by law. SEC. 7. The colmmnlissioners of counties, the trustees of townships, and similar boards, shall have such power of local taxation, for police purposes, as may e prescribed by law. ARTICLE XI. APPORTIONMENT. SEC. 1. The apportionmentof this State for members of the General Assembly, shall be made every ten years, after the year one thousand eight hundred and fifi y-one, in the following mannier: The whole popu'atiol of the State, as ascertained by the federal cenisus, or in such other mode as the General Assembly miay direct, shall be divided by the number "one hundred," anid the quotient shall beha the ratio of representation i w the House of Representatives, for ten years next su e cee, ing such apportionment. Si:c. 2. Every county, having a population equal to one half of said ratio, shall be entitled to one Repres t, tative; every county containing said ratio and three r 8 62 ARTICLE X. OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCH I10. and Mahonig, the second; and Geauga, Lake and Ashtabula, the third subdivision of the ninth district, and, together, shall form such dis-trict SEC. 13. The General Assembly shall attach any new counties that may hereafter be erected, to such districts or subdivistons thereof, as shall be most con. vellient. Ere. 9. Any county forming part of a senatorial district, having acquired a population equal to a full senatorial ratio, shall be made a separate senatorial district, at any regular decennial apportionment, it a lull senatorial ratio shall be left in the district from which it shall be taken. SEc. 10. For the first ten years, after the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, the apportionnmeat of representatives shall be as provided in the schedule, and no change shall ever be rnade in tile principles of representation, as herein established, or, in the senatorial districts, except as above provided. All territory belongirng to a county at the time of any ap. portionrment, shall, as to the right of representation and suffrage, remaic l an integral part thereof, during the decennial period. SEC. 11. I/he Governor, Auditor, and Secret,rv of State, or ally two of them, slPall ant least six months prior to the O ctobe r election, in the year one thousand eight hundred and sixty oie, and at each decennial period thereafter, ascertai n and determine tie ratio of representatiot,according to the decennial census,the num rber of Representatives and Senators each county or district shall be enti tled to elect, and for wh at years, within the nex t ensuing ten years, and the Governor shall caus, e the same to be published, in such mander as shall be directed by law. JUDICIAL APPORTIONMENT. SEC. 12. For Juflicial purposes, the State shall be apportioned as follows; The count)s of Hamilton, shall constitute the first district, which shall not be subdiv i ded; and the Judges therein nroy hold separate courts, or separate sittings of t he sane ou rt at the same time. Tiohe counties of Butoer, Preble and Darlie, shall constitute the first subdivision; Montgomerv, Miam i and harsh paign the second; and Wa arren, Clieton, Greene and Clark, the third subdivision of, the second district, and together shall form such district. Tlhe counties of Shell)y, APrglaize, Allen, Hardin, Logan, Un ion and Marion shall constitute the first subdivision; Mercer, Van Wert, Putnam, Paulding, Defianc e, Wi!liarns, Henry and FultoMi, th e second; a nd Wood,Senaca hi o, Hahcock, Wya uidot and Craw for d, the third subdivision-of the third district, and,together, shall form such district. The counties of Lucas, Ottawa, Sandusky, Erie and Huron shall constit ute.he first subdi vision; Lorain, Medi na an d Summ it the second, and the county of Cuyahoga, the third subdivision of the fourth district, and, together shall form such district. The counties of Clerm ont, Br own and Adams, shall constitute the first subdivision, Highland, Ross, and Fayette the second, and Pickaway, F'ranklin and Madisoit, the tmird subdivision, of the fifth district, and together shall form such district. The counties of Licking, Knox and Delaware, shall constitute the first subdivision, Morrow, Richland and Ashland the second, and Wayne, Holmes and Coshoetoll, the third subdivision, of the sixth district, and together shall form suCh district. I'lhe counties of Fairfield, Perry and Hocking shall constitute the first subdivision, Jackson, Vinton, Pike, $cioto and Lawrence, the second, and Gallia, Meigs, Athens and Washington, the third subdivisionl, of the seventh district, and, together, shall form such district. The counties of Muskingunm anid Morgan, shall con — stiralte the first subdivision; Gulernsey, Belmonlt and Monroe, the second;and Jetibrson, Harrison, and Tuscardwas, the third subdivision, of the eighth district, andi, together shxall form such district The counties of Stark, Carroll and Columbiarid shall constitute the first subdivision; Trumbull, Portage, ARTICLE XII. FRNANCE AND TAXATION. SEC. 1. The levying of taxes bv the poll,is grlev ouses and oppressive; therefore, the General Assembly shall never levy a poll tax, for county or State purposes. ,SEC. 2. Laws shall be passed, taxing, by a uniform rule, all moneys, credits, investments in bonds, stocks, fjoint stock comtpanies,orotherwise; and also all real and piersonal property, according to its true value in mnoney; but burying grounds, public school houses, houses used exclusively for public worship, institutions of purely public charity, public property used exclusively for any public purpose; and personal property to an amount not exceeding in value two hundred dollars for each individual, may, by general laws, be exempted from taxation: but, all such laws shall be subject to alteration or repeal; and the value of all property, l so exempted, shall, from time to time, be ascertained and published as mav be directed by law. SEC. 3. The General Assembly shall provide, by law, for taxing the notes and bills discounted or purchased,moneys loaned, and all other property, effects, or dues, of every description, (without deduction,) of all banks,now existing, or hereafter created,and of all bankers, so that all property employed in banking, shall always bear a burden of taxation equal to tha imposed on the property of individuals. SEc. 4. The General Assembly shall provide for raising revenue,sufficient to defray the expenses of the State,for each year,and also a sufficient sum to pay the interest on the State debt. SEc. 5. No tax shall be levied, except in pursuance of law; and every law imposing a tax shall state, distinctly,the object of the same, to which onlly, it shall be applied. Sec. 6. The State shall never con tra ct a ny debt for purposes of internal improvement. ARTICLE XIII. CORPORATIONS. SEC. 1. The General Assembly shall pass no spcial act conferring corporate powers. SEc. 2. Corporations may be formed under general laws; but all such laws may, from time to time, be al. tered, or repealed. SEC. 3. Dues from corporations shall be secured,by such individual liability of the stoclkholders, and other means. as may be prescribed by law; but, in all cases, each stockholder shall be liable, over and above the stock by him or her owned, and any amount unpaid thereon, to a further sum, at least equal in amount to such stock. SEC. 4. The property of corporations,now existing, or hereafter created, shall forever be subject to taxation, the same as the property of individuals. SEc. 5. No right of way shall be appropriated to the use of any corporation until full compensation therefor be first made in money, or first secured by a deposit of money, to the owner, irrespective of any benefit from any improvement proposed by such cor poration; which compensation shall be ascertained by a jury of twelve men, in a court of record, as shall be prescribed bv law. SEC. 6. sVhe General Assembly shall provide for the organization of cities,and incorporated villages by :general laws, and restrict their power of taxation, as. 863 OHIO CON VENTION DEBATES —osNDATY, MAUCI 10. s same shall be submitted to the electors for their aX proval or rejection; and if a majority of the electors voting at such election, shall adopt such amendments, - the same shall become a part of the Constitution. When more than one amendmrent shall be subniitted, f at the same time, they shall be so submitted as to en, able the electors to vote on each amendment, sepax ately. SEc. 2. Whenever two-thirds of the members elected to each branch of the Getneral Assembly shall think it necessary to call a Convention,tto revise, amend, or change this Constitution, they shall recommend to tile electors to vote, at the next election for members to the~General Assembly, for or against a Conventionand if a majority of all the electors voting at said election, shall have voted 1or a Conveotion, the General Assembly shall, at their next session, provide, by law, for calling the same. The Convention shall consistof as many members as the House of Representatives, who shall be chosen in the same manner, and shall meet within three mouths after their election, for the purpose aforesaid. SE.C. 3. At the general election, to be held in the year one thousand eight hundred and seventy one,and in each twentieth year thereafter, the question, "Shall there be a Convention to revise, alter, or amend the Constitution?" shall be submitted to the electors of the State, and inl case a majority of all the electors voting at such election shall decide in favor of a Convention, the General Assembly, at its next session, shall provide by law,for the election of delegates, and theassembling of such Convention, as is provided in the preceding section; but Ino amendment of this Constitution,agreed upon bd a ny Co nve Ct one assembled in phursuance of tSCis arti4le,shall take effect, until the s a me shall hare been submitted to the elector s of the State, a nd adopted by a majority of thoseavot ing there on. SCHEDULE. Src. 1. ACl l ars of th is State, in force on the firest day of Septemb er, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, not inlconsistent with this C~onstitutionl,shall continue in force until amended or repealed. Sre. 2. Thle first election for members of tlh, General Assembly, uinder this Constitution, shall te held on the second Tulesday of October, one thoulsand eight hundred and fifty-one. Sac. 3. The first election for Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Auditor, Treasurer, and Secretary of State, and Attorney General, shall be held oni the second Tuesday of October, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one. The persons holding said offices on the first day of September, one thousand eight hundred and fifty one, shall continue therein until the second Monday of January, one thousand eight hundred and fifty:-two. Src. 4. Thle first election for Judges of the Supreme Court, Courts of Common Pleas, and Probate Courts, and Clerks of the Courts of Common Pleas, shall be held on1 the second Tu~esdaly of October, one thousand e'ghet hundred and fifty-one- and the offi cial telxn of such judges and clerk~s so elected shall commence on the-second Monday of February, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-twro. Ju]dges and (clerks of the Courts of Common Pleas and Supreme Court in office on the first day of September,' one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, shall continue in office with their present powers and duties, until the second Monday of February} one thousand eight Bundled and fifty two. No suit or proceeding pending in any of the courts of this State, shall be affected by the adoption of this Constitution. S~c. 5. The Register and Receiver of the Land' Office, Directors of t-he Penitentiary, Directors of the benevolent Institutions of the State, the State Libra''; sessm ent, b orrowfnl m he corsvting debts, an iloaning their credit, so as to prevent the abuse of sucl pOW~ r SEC. 7. NO act of the General Assembly, author izin~ associations with banking powers, shall take ef feel; until it shall be submitted to thle.people-, at the gevceral election next succeed3ing the pa~sa,ge thereof and be approved by a majority of all the electors vetinit at such election. -ARTICLE- XIV. JURISPRUDENCE:. Src. 1. The General Assembly, at its first session afte r t he adoption of this Con stitutionr shall provide for th e a pp ointment o3 ththree Commissioners, and pre scro be their tenure of office, compensation, and the mlode of filling vacancies in said commission. SEC. a2. T he said commissioners shall revise. reformo simplify anw d abridge, the practice, pleadings, forms and proceedings papers or echra of the upon by any ofnvenis Statef nad, as far as practicable,hand expedient, shall pro vide for the aboli tio n of th e distinct forms of action at l aw, now in use, and for the administration of justice by aunifd re d mode of proceeding, with out reference t o any distnaction between law and equitp. SEC. 3. The proceedings of th~e commissioners shall, from time to time, be r eported to the General Assembly, and be subject to the action of that body ARTICLE XV. M ISCZLLANEOUS. Sa.c. 1. Columbus shall be the seat of governlment until otherwise directed by faw. SEnC. 2. The printing of the laws, journals, hie's legislative documents, and papers for each branch of the' G eneral Ass embly, wit h t he prieinsg required for th Executive and other departments of Slate, shali be let on Lontract, to t he lowest responsible bidder, by such Executi ve o fficers, and inl such man ner as shall be pre-i scribe d by law. SEC. 3. An accurate and detailed statement of the receip ts and exp enditures of t he public money, the sever al amounts paid, to whom, and on what account shall, fror time to tim e, be published, ax shall be preC scr ibe d by law. SEC. 4. No person shall be el ect e d or appointed to auy office in thi s S tate, unl ess he possess t reg qualifications of all eleceor. SEc 5. No pers on w ho sh all hereafter fight a duel,; assist in the same as second, or sebruary, or know- i' isgly carry a challen ge therefor, shall hol d any office in cr this States nSC. 6. Lo tteries, and the sale of lottery ticketsti for any purpose whlatever, shall forever be prohibited in this State. SEC. 7. Ever y ierson cho sen or appointed to anynd office under thi s S tat e, befor e entering upon the discharge of its du ties, shall tak e al oa th or affirmations I to support the Constituiion of the United States, and ~f this State, and also all oath of office. ~' SEC. 8. There may be established in the Secretary t of S3tate's ofice, a bureau of statistics, under such reg- ( ulations as may be prescribed by law.c ARTICLE XVI. A3/IEND~IENTS.( Sr~. 1. Either branch of the General Assembly. t mnay propose amendments to this Constitution, and if t the same shall be agreed to by three-fifths of-the mere- t hers elected to each H~ouse, such proposed amendmentse shall be entered on the journals, with the yeas and nays, and shall be published in at least one newspa. pr, in each county of the State where a newspaper is pu Olished, for six months preceding the next election for Senators and Representatives, at which time the OHIO CONVENTION DEBATSMo nDAY, MARcH i0. I by him opened, in the presence of tile Governor, who f shall declare the result, and issue commissions to the pers,,ns elected. SEc. 16. Where two or more counties are joined in a Senatorial, Representative, or Judicial district, the returns of elections shall be sent to the county havfingf the largest population. SEC. 17. The foregoing Constitution shall be subre mitted to the electors of the State, at an election to be ; held on the third Tuesday of June, one thousand a eight hundred and fifty-one, in the several election districts of this State. The ballots at such eleco tio n shall be written or printed as follows: Those in favor of the Constitution, "New Constitution, Yes;" . those against the Constitution, "inew Constitution, No." The polls at said election shall be opened bel tween the hours of eight and ten o'clock, A. M., and closed at six o'clock, P. M.; and the said election shall be conducted, and the returns thereof made and certified, to the Secretary of State, as provided by law for annual elections of state and county oicers. t Within twenty days after such election, the Secretary of State shall open the returns thereof, in the presence of the Governor; and, if it shall appear that a majoritv of all the votes cast at such election are in favor of the Constitution, the Governor shall issue his proclamation, stating that fact, and said Consti tution shall be the Constitution of the State of Ohi&o and not otherwise. ~ SEc. 18. At the time when the votes of the elec - tors shall be taken for the adoption or rejection of this Constitution, the additional section in the words following, to-wit: "No license to traffic in intoxicating liquors shall hereafter be granted in this State; but the General Assembly'may by law, provide against evils resulting therefrom,' shall be separately submits ted to the electors for adoption or rejection, in fort following, to-wit: A separate ballot may be given by everv elector, and deposited in a separate box. Upon the ballots given for said separate amendment shall be written, or printed, or partly written and partly printed, the words, "License to sell intoxicating liquors, "Yes;" and upon the ballots given against said amendment, in like manner, the words, License to sell intoxicating liquors, No," If at the said v lection a majority of all the votes given for and. against said amendment shall contain the words, "License to sell intoxicating liquors, No," then the said a me ndment shall be a separate section of article fifrteen of the Constitution. sSac. 19. The apportionment for the House of Rep-; resentatives during the first decennial period underi this Constitution shall be as follows: The counties of Adams, Allen, Athens, Auglaize, Carroll, Champaign, Clark, Clinton, Crawford, Darke, Delaware, Erie, Fayette, Gallia, Geauga, Greene, Han cock, Harris on, Hocking, H ol mes, Lake, Lawrence1 pov aw, Logan, cenisona. Mario n, Meot s, Mo rrow, Perry, Pickaway, Pike, Preble, Sanldusky, Scioto, Shelby, and Unionr M han, hsevera lly, be entitledto one Representative in each session of the decennialperiod. The counties of Franklin, Licking, Montgomery and Stark,shlall each be entitled to two Representatives in each session of the decennial period. T~he counties of Ashland, Coshocton, Highland, Hulron, Lorain, Mahoning, M~edina, Miami, Portage, Seneca, Summit,and Warren,shall,severally,be entitled to one Representative in each session, and one additionlal PRepreeentative in the fifth session of the decennial period. The counties of Ashtabula, Brown, Butler, Clermont, Fairfield, Guernse y, Jeffers,;n, Knox, Monroe, Morgan, Richland, Trumvulll, Tuscarawas, and Washington shall severally be entitled to one A tiaa, and all other officers, not otherwise provided for in this Constitutionl, in ofice on the firstt day of September one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one shall continue in office until their terms expire, re spectively, unless the General Assembly shall other wise provide. SEC. 6. The Superior and Commercial Courts of Cincinnati, and the Superior Court of Clevela nds shallremaino, until otherwise provided by law with their pr esectot powers arrd jurisdiction, and the Judges and Clerks of said lourts i n office on the first day of September, one thous an d eight hund red and fifty one, shall contce in office until the expi ration of their terms of office respectively, or, until otd.erise provided by laT; but neither of said Courts shall con tinue af ter the second Monday of February,one thou sand eight hundred and fifty-three, and nlo suit shall be commenced in said two first mentioned Courts af ter the se cond Monday of February, on e t hous and eig ht hundred andfifty-two, nor in said last men tione d Cou rt after the second Monday in August, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-two, and all bu siness in either of said Courts, d lo t di sposised with in the timae limited for their continuance as aforesaid, shallbe trhnsf erre d to the C ourt of Common Pleas. ruEC. 7. Ad county and townships offices and Jus tiees of the P ea c e, il office on th e first day of Sep tember, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, shall cozntinue in offce until their terms expire, respectively. SE:C. 8. Vacancies in office, occurlag after the first day of September, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-onle, shJall be filledJ as is now prescribed by law, and, until officers are elected or appointed, anld quali fihd under this Con~stitution. 8E~. 9. Thlis ConXstitution shall take effect on the first day of September, oDE thousand eight hundred and fifty-one. SEC. 10. All officers shall continue in office until their successors shall be chosen and qualified. SrEC. 11. Suits pendingi illhe Supreme Court in Banlk, shall be transferred to the Supreme Court, pro. vided for ill this Con~stitution, and~ be proceeded ill according to law. SEC. 152. Thea District Courts shall, in their respective counties, be the successors of the presenlt Supreme Court, and all suits, prosecutions, judgmets, records and proceedings, pending and remainling ii said Supreme Court, in the several cuuntiefi of any district, shall be transferred to the respective District Courts of such counties,' and be proceeded it, as though no change had been made ill said Supreme Cour t. SEC. 13. The said Courts of Common Pleas shall be the successors of the present Courts of Commonl Pleas, in the several counties, except as to probate jurisdiction; and all suits, prosecutions, proceedings, records and judgments, pending, or being in said last mientioned Courts, except as aforesaid, shall be transfelred to to the Courts of Common Pleas corated by this Constitutionl, and proceeded in, as though the samse had been therein instituted. SrEC. 14. The Probate Courts provided for ill this Constitution, as to all matters within the jurisdiction conlferres upon said Courts, shall be the successors, in the several counties, of the present Courts of Common Pleas; and the records, files and papers, business and proceedings, appertaining to said jurisdictionl, shallI be transferred to said Courts of Probate, and be there pro. ceeded in according to law. Sac. 15. Until otherwise provided by law, elections for Judges and Clerks shall be held, and the poll books returned, as is provided for Governor, and the abstract therefromn, certified to the Secretary of State, shall be OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONDAY, MARCI I 0. presentative in each session, and two additional Re presentatives, one in the third and one iii the fourth session, of the decennial period. The counties of Belmio(ont, Columbiana Ross and Wayne, shall, severally, be entitled to one Represen tative in each session; and three additional Represen tatives; f)ne in the first, one in the second, and one in the third session, of the decennial period. The county of Muskingum shall be entitled to two Representatives in each session; and one additional Representative in the fifth session, of the decennial period. The county of Cuiyallhoga shall be entitled to two Representatives in each session, and two additional Representatives, one in the third and one in the fourth session of the decennial period. The county of Hamilton shall be entitled to seven Representatives in each session, and four additional Repesentatives, one in the first, one in the second, one in the third, and one in the four th se ssion of the decennial period. The following counties, until they shall have ac quired a sufficient population to entitle them to elect, separately, under the fourth section of the eleventh article, shall form districts in manner following, to wit: The counities of Jackson and Vinton,one district; the counties of Lucas and Fultoi, one district; the ournties of Wyandot and Hardin, one district; the counties of Mercer and Vanl Wert, one district; the counties of Paulding, D efia nce and Williams,one dis trict; the sounties of Putnam and Henry, one district; and the counties of Wood and Ottawa, one district; each of which districts shall be entitled to one Rep resentative in every session of the decennial period. Done in Convention at Cincinnati, the tenth day of March, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, and of the Independence of the United States t he seventy-iftih. WILLIAM MEDILL, President. Attest: WM. H. GILL, Secretary. S. J. Andrews, William Lawrence William Barbee, John Larwill, Joseph Barnet, Robert Leech, David Barnett, D. P. Leadbetter, Wm. S. Bates, John Lidey, A. I. Bennett, James London, John H. Blair, H. S. Manron, Jacob Blickensde rfer, Samson Mason, Van. Brown, Matthew H. Mitchell, R. W. Cahill, Isaiah Morris, L. Case, Charles Mceloud, David Chambers, S. F. Norris, John Chaney, Chas. J. Orton, H. D. Clark, W.S. C. Otis, George Collings, Thomas Patterson, Friend Cooke, Dan'l. Peck, Otway Curry, Jacob Perkins, G. Volney Dorsey, Samuel Quigley, Thos. W. Ewart, R. P. Ranney, John Ewing, C has. Reemelin, Joseph M. Farr, Adam N. Riddle, Elias Florence, Edward C. Roll, Robert Forbes, Win. Sawyer, tt. N. Gillett, Sabirt Scott, John Grahamn, John Sellers, Jacob J. Greene, Johnl A. Smith, Johnl L. Green, George J. Smith, Henry/E. Gregg, B. P. Smith, W. S. Groesbeck, Henry Stanbery, a. s. Hamnilton, It. Stanton, D. D1. T. Hard, Albert V. S3tebbins, A.:Harlanl, - E. T. Stickney, William Hawkins, Harmon Stidger, , James P. Hlenderson, Jamles Strable, RMr.SAWYER offered a resolution to the effect that "the Convention do now adopt and sign the Conrstit tution." Mr. SMITH of Warren. Mr. President: Before the question on the final adoption of the Constitution is taken, I desire to say one word explanatory of the vote I am about to give. From the commencement of the session of this Convention, until this time, no member of this body has been more solicitious than myse lf, that the result of our labors should be the formation of a Constitution which would meet the approbation of this body, and receive the deliberate and intelligent sanction of the people. I regret to say, that so far as my own judgment is concerned, this great object has not been fully attained. With many of the provisions of this Constitution, I am wel satisfied. In mantly respects, I believe we have made great iniprovements on the present Constitution; there are other provisions in this instrument to which I have most serious and weighlty objections. But however objectionable as mere matters of policy or expediency, I shall defer very much to the opinion of others and these objections might not be insurinountable. There are other provisions to which I have more serious objections. There are provisions contained in this instrument, which as far as I am now capable of forming an opinion, I am seriously apprehenisive are in conflict with the Constitution of the United States, which I have solertly sworn to sulp port. As at present advised, I am conscientiously scrupulous in giving my vote in favor of this instrument as a whole. I should be most happy, were it in my ponder to overcome these scruples, as I greatly desire to sustain the Constitution, could I do so conscientiouslvy These difficulties arise out of the question of Constitutional power, rather than upon the ground of policy or expediencyv-though upon the latter ground, as before remarked, I have very great objections. Upon a careful and deliberate examination of the whole instrument, these difficulties and objections may hereafter be measurably removed; shall such be the case, I may hereafter when called upon, as a private citizen, sanction it by my vote. I shall nothere, or elsewhere, raise any factious opposition to this instrument; my present objections are founded upon what I deem to be principle. As at present advised, therefore, I have after much deliberation, deemed it to be my duiy as a delegate in this Convention, to cast my vote in the negative. I need not say, that I have come to that conclusion with great regret. It would be one of the happiest events in my public life, could I give my cordial and deliberate sanction to this Constitution. I shall make no additional efforts to impress these views upon any of nmy fellow members. Every gentleman will, I have no doubt, be governed by his ownii sense of right and duty; and in giving this vote, I do it for myself, and upon my own responsibility as a member of this bo dy. Mr. STAYTlON. Mr. President, I am now called 866 Peter Hitchcoel-, J. McCormick, G. W. Holmes, Geo. B. Holt, John J. Hootman, V. B. Horton, Sam'l. Hui-ilplireville, John E. Hu-nt, John Johnson, J. Dan' J o n es, James B. Kin-, S. J. KirkwooA, Thos. J. Larsh, J. R. Swan, L. Swifl!., James W. Tavlor, N. S. l'owrl,-,Iciid, Elijah Varice, Wiii. M. Warren, Tlioni,-t-, A. Way, J. Milton Williatn-;, ElzeWilsoii, Jas.. Worthington, E. B. Woodbury-, H. C. Gray. Edwar Arcbboldd, OHIO CONVENTION DEBATES-MONnAY, MAReC 10. power, and promotion, are to be procured by subserviency to the behesisul a dominant party, and lost by a faithful and independent discharge of official duty, it edoes seem to me, that there is greatdanger ofthe courts beconling the mere tools of faction, and sacrificing the rights of itndividuals, to personal aggrandiseinent and promotion. I make no objection to the election of the judges, if this provision had been accompanied with a longer term of office and a certain and adequate compensation, which would have rendered them to some extent independent, by diminishing the temptations to do wrong. tI have always been taught to regard an independent judiciary as one of the great safeguards of personal li erty, which ought on 110 account to be surrendered or placed in jeopardy. I am aware that there is a strong current of public opinion against me on this subject, and I most earnestly hope that my apprehensions may prove groundless. The old constitution conferred upon the Gengral Assembly the unlimited power of taxation for all purposes within the range of governmental expenditure. There is no doubt but this power has been very often abused, and that onerous, and unequal taxes have very often been levied. But it is also true that it is to this power that the State owees the developements of its resources, and the increase of its wealth and pop ulation, with a rapidity that is almost, if nlot quite unparalleled. Without the aid of the power of taxation in som form for the purposes of internal improvements, the State would have been to-day very little in advance of c what it was twenty years ago, in population and wealth, and ill every thing that makes a people prosperous and happy., I believe it wvas the duty of this convention to rein train and guard against the abuse of the taxing power. But we have gone far beyond that. We havre prohibited the General AsSembly by the most stringent provisions, from exercising this power at all, or from pervmitting its exercise by local or municipal authorities, except for the mere purpose of supportin g the governt meIt and preserving social order. yo appropriation shall be made, by the Legislature for works of internal improvements. No state debt shall be contracted. No city, county, town or township, shall levy atax for any such purpose. The State shah not assamo the debts of any- county,city,town or township, or become a stockholder in any company incorporated for workl of internal improvements. No city, county, town or township, by the unlanimnous consent of the entire population can ever tax themselves one dollar for works of internal improvement.~ - I admoit that this power ought to have been limited and restrained within such limits as would have pr~vented oppression and abuse. But a total prohibition I believe was not only wholly unnecessary, but will prove highly pernicious. The improveoment of the country herealter, is thrown entirely upon private etterprise. And every one knows that private enter. prise can only effect it, through the instrumentality of incorporated companies. This gives to the provisions of this Constitution cal the subject of corporations, au importance which they would not otherwise have had. The article on corporations gives to the General At~ sembly the unconditional right of repeal, as to all cor*pararians hereafter created. Thle created property~ and franchises are committed to the tender mercies A..~ -the party'who may happen at any time to have a ms, 3erity. Every corporation in the State may be struak. out of existencee at a single blow, and every dollarM': property owned by them be confiscated. An uncomdic upon to say by my recorded vote wh eth er, taking this Constitution as a whole, I am infavor of its adoption. As I find myself in a position wh ich will probably compel m e lo vo t e wi th a very small minoriti, if not e ntirely alone ss, a dpopitn ostuheparat-nparthle.itu tion, fI hls t asWk the indulgence of the Convention to enter upon the record my reasons for this vote. I believe I do not underrate the delicacy and responsi bility of the position w hich I occupy. And whilst I irield to every member of the Convention the same integrity of purpose which I claim for myself. and to many of them a character for experience and in telligence to which I mak e no pretensions- I nexperthe less feel boun d to a ct upon my own convictions of duty, upon full and ma ture consideration of the whole subject. Upon a careful and deliberate examination of the result of ou r l abor, I find wi th the deepest regret that it contains provisiwns, which in my judg uent are n ot o nly unwise and impolitic, but that it als o con tains provisions that ar e in dire ct conflict with the Constitv tion of the U nit ed St ate s, which I was stn or n to support upon tacking my seat as a mem ber of this body. So far as mere questions of policy or expediency are contiernedi, I suppo s e the t rue question for concid eratno n is whether the happine s s and prosperity of the St ate woul d b e best secured and promoted by the adopt io n of this Constitutionl or by continuing the one under which the people of the State ha ve l ived in peac e, happ ines s, and prosperity, almost uonparall eled, f or half a century. As t o qu estions of power arising from any supposed conflict wi th be adequte o the Co nst i cieno of theorported States, I hav e suppos ed there w as no room for hes itation or ~ompromtse. If any p rovisio n is incorporat e d into this Constitutob elec h ps of thefThetarticlehonCcorporation of the General Ath United Stateso I su ppose I am bound bt my o ath of affice, and my allegiaecei to the Federal Constitution to oppose its adoption. Anld first as to questuons of policyr or excpediency. I believe there was no provision of the old Constitutidn wh i ch im perativel y demanded a change, except in the Article in regard to the Judiciary. It is unldoubtedly true that there were verys many of the peo pli e of t he State, who believed that other parts of the old Constitution might be changed for the better. But I believe I hazard nothing in saying that if the 2. Report of Standing Committee thereon consider ed in Convention. 532, 559, 553. 555, 635. Report of Staniding Committee ordered to be en rolled, 8:X9. EVENING SESSIONS Proposed, 212, j23, 834. i INDEX. 880 INDEX. G Remarks on report on future amendments to ConGILLETT, Mr., a Delegate from Lawrence- stitution, 431. Retiiarks on Finance and Taxation, 38. Remarks on report of select committee on Tem Petitions presented by, 44, 183,242,317,506,556, peranrce, 441, 456. 614, 744. Speech on righ,t of Legislative Repeal, 541, 542, Remarks relative to the election of an officer to be 544, 619. styled Commissioner of Agriculture. Personal explanation as to remarks made on re, Remarks on report oni Public Debts and Public peal question, 545. Works, 303, 306. Remarks on report on Legislative Department, Resolution on restricting debate, 635. 562, 563, 565, 569, 573, 574. Resolution on the propriety of establishing a Remarks relative to enactmeniit of curative laws, Bureau of Statistics, 756. 592, 593. GRAHAM, Mr., a Delegate from Franklin- Amendment to report on corporations other than Conmmunication from Wm. Neil, presented by, 25. banks, and remarks thereon, 641, 646,647. Petitions presented by, 119. Remarks on amendments to report on Judiciary, (GRAY, Mr., a Delegate from Lake- 668, 669, 670, 679, 683, 684, 695. Resolution inviting United States Senator Hale Remarks relative to having more full reports of to a seat within Bar of Conventtioii, 159. Convention, 678. Amendment to report of committee oni Preamble Amendment to repot on Apportionment and re and Bill of Rights, 339. marks thereon, 752, 820. Resolution fixing the hour of meeting, 399. Remarks on Apportionment, 761, 765, 773, 776, Aminendnmeiit to report on Legislative Department 784. relative to erection of new counties, 590. Remarks on Mr. HOLT'S proposition relative to Petitions presented by. 710. banks and currency, 8 0. Amendment to report on Apportionment provi- Amendment to and remarks on preamble, 815. ding single districts., and remarks thereon, p22. Resolution of thanks to Hon. W. MEDILL, Presi dent of Convention, and remarks thereon, 854. GREGG, Mr., a Delegate from Columbiana — Remarks on motion to reconsider resolution rela- GROESBECK, Mr. a Delegate from Hamilton tive to census, 5. Resolution providing seats for reporters of Cin Remarks on his peoposition to tax loans, dis- cinnati press, 20. counts aindcapital of banlks, 116. Remarks relative to the taxation of burial grounds, Amendment to section 26 of resolutions on Leg- 52, 62 islat ive D pairtineit relative to eligibility to seat Proposition to amend report of committee on Fi in General Assembly, 1 82,184, 1t5. ance and taxation, S.9 Amendmient relative to compensation of members Remarks on taxing StateStocks, 94. of General Assembly, 214. on terms of Judges, 132. Amendment reilative to submission of laws to the on qualifications for Judges, 132. people, 223, 224. on the right of Legislative Repeal, 165, 170,190, 257, 524,525, 541. Remiarks in reply to Mr. CAsE of Licking, 26 10, 190, 25., 524,525, 41. Petitions preseited by, 10I. on private property taken for public Remarks onl report on Public Debt and Public use, 179, 234. Works 311, 44, 425, 426. -on grant use of Convention Hall for Remarks onil report to give putblic printing to low- Lectures 184. j~~est bidder,~~ SAG~ - Petitions presented by, 192, 232. Remdlrks on ameidinent to report on Education, Amendment to section providing that cities, 700. 700. counties and towns shall not contract debts Amendment to report on Education, 704. and credits, 312. Remiarks oil Finance and Taxatfion, 574, 791,792. Remarks relative to right of accused to trial and Amendment to report onil Miscellaneous Subjects, t he mode thereof. 329. 794. relative to jurisdiction of the Supreme GREENE, Mr., a Delegate from Defiance — Court, 358. Resolution on opening morning session with relative to amendments to report on Ju relative to amendment-.- to report on Ju prayer, 4. cl Depart ment, 69. Remarks relative to election of Superintendent of Amendment to report on Legislative Department, Coimniooii Selhools by the people 706. 57 9 Amendment to report on Apportionment, 782.tin,67. Amendnment to report on Apportionment, 782. Remarks in relation to city charters, and corpora GREEN, Mr., a Delegate fromi Ross- to mnunicipal corporations, Presentation of credenutials of Mr. WORTIai-G 661. TON, 3. on amendments to report on Preamble Remarks on Fiuanc( a.(1 Taxation, 39, 118. and Bill of Rights, 691. ol taxing State( Stocks, 67. on church taxation, 724, 725. Amendment proposed to report on Finance and on Apportionnient, 762. Taxation, 124, 129. Amendment to report on couity and township Remalks (oii pr capoeitiorn for a substitute for report orgonizations, 838. on Financ and Taxait na, 129. Resolution relative to allowing extra compensa Remarks on Biennial Sessions, 142, 146. tion to Secretaries of Convention, 845. Petitions preseited by, 192.2 56, 339, 348. Remarks on Finance and Taxatioin, p51. Remarks on report on Public Debt and Public. I1 Works, 307, 312. HL ONP,Uie ttsSntr Remarks on report on l'reamble and Bill of Rights l HALE} JOHN P., United Seat es Sena tor 327, 337, 3k!8. 327, -J.37, 36tS. i ~~~Invited to seat within Bar of Convention Cham Remark on eectionof Sureme Jdges y the ber, 159. lRemarks on election of Supreme Judges by the i/HENDERSON, Mr., a Delegate from Richland'cople,'~53, p56. I Petitions presented by,:'25. 88 882 INDEX. Motion to amend section 35 of resolution on Leg islative Department, 165. Remarks on right of Legislative repeal, 171, 172. Amendment relative to eligibility to office, 182. Remarks relative to Grand Juries, 329. on amendment to report of committee on Judicial Department, 364, 398. on report on Public Debt and Publi* works, 425. on report of select committee on Tem perance, 459, 713. on re port of committee on Legislative Department, 576. on proposition to give public printing to lowest responsible bidder, 588. Amendments and remarks relative to prohibiting emigration of blacks and mulattos, 598, 599. Remarks on Corporations, 650. on taxing banks and other municipal corporations, 665. Resolution relative to printing Report No. 2, on Apportionment, 709. 1 Remarks on Finance and Taxation, 733, 745. on Apportionment, 751, 759, 764, 767, 768, 771, 779, 780, 783. Amendment to report on Apportionment, 820. HARD, Mr. a Delegate from Jackson Petitions presented by, 5, 140, 232. Motion to reconsider vote on Mr. VANcxE's amend ment relative to Legislative Repeal, discussion and vote thereon, 242, 253, 256, 277, 281. HIeARLAN, Mr., a Delegate from Greene — Petitions presented by, 19, 317, 361. HAMILTON Mr., a Delegate fromn Union Speech in relation to proposition of Mr. LEEcn re lative to giving the public printiing to lowest bidder, 582, 585. Remarks on amendments to Report on Education, 701. HAWKINS, Mr., a Delegate from Morgan — Resolution relative to transmission of Reports to Printer, 4. Petitions presented by, 67, 15, 1, 9, 256, 290, 413, 461, 614. Remarks on Elective Franchise, 8,9. on Education, 16. on Capital Punishment, 20, 22, 29, 33. on Finance and Taxation, 41, 51, 754, 792. on taxing State Bonds, 107, 737. on " U. S. Bonds, 19,6. Amendment relative to the Compensation of Judges, 133,134. Remarks on Biennial Sessions, 145, 151. on the right of Legislative Repeal, 166, 620, 628. on Local Legislation, 175. on rights of private property taken for ,public use, 177, 178. on formation of new Counties, 210. Resolution relative to Census Returns, 256. Remarks relative to the establishment of the of fice of Comptroller of Treasury, 291. 7Works, 295, 296, 303, 311, 313, 36, 425. Remarks relative to the right of Pet-ition, 326. Amendments to Report on Preamble and Bill of Rights and remarks thereon, 327, 330, 334. Amendments to Report, 337, 338, 465, 476. Remarks on jurisdiction of Supreme Court, 357. Amendments and remarks on Report of Commit tee on Judicial Department, 36X3, 386. Remarks on Amendment to Report on Banks and Currencyr, 403, 411, 412. Remarks on report of committee on Executive Department, 332. committee on Banks and Currency, 41 6, 417. Amendment to report on Preamble and remarks th ere on, 811, 814. HITCHCOCK, Mr., a Delegate firom Cuyahoga Remarks on Finance and Taxation, 39, 51, 730, 731. on the politics of Free-soilers, 61. as to what church property is taxed, 62. p ~e 3535. 701. Resolution calling for information relative to issue of State Stocks, 75 and 76. Petitions presented by, 232. Remarks relative to the r ight of way fo r public improvements, 233, 234. on Public Debt and Public Works, 299, 310, 312. r elativ e t o law reform, 320. on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 326, 327, 462. on Temperance question, 453. on right of Negro suffrage, 552. on report on Legislative Department, 568, 570, 576. on Apportionment, 770. 'HITCHCOCK, Mr., a Delegate from Geauga Remarks on the right of petition, 326. on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 327, 329, 337, 468, 557, 689. on motion to instruct the committee on Executive Department to amend re port, and demand of yeas and nays, 332. on report on Public Institutions, 342. on Militia, 347 350. on election of Supreme Judges by peo ple, 354, 355, 359. Petitions presented by, 361. Remarks on report of committee on Public Debt and Public Works, 362, 426. on amendment of committee on Judical Department, 363, 366, 377, 678, 684, 696. Amendment to amendment of committee on Judi cial Department, 388. Remarks on report on future amendments to Con stitution, 428, 435. Speech on right of Legislative repeal, 533, 534, 5384. Remarks relative to prohibiting emigration of black and mulatto persons, 598. on demanding provious question, 640. on amendments to report on Corpora tions other than Banking, 642. on bank taxation, etc., 665. on report on the Preamble and Bill of; Rights, 691. on amendments to report on Education, 699, 7O)7. on report on Temperance question, 720. on Finance and Taxation, 735. on Apportionment, 756, 758, 772, 782,. 783 and 784.'' Amendment to report on Apportionment, and re marks thereon, 772, 775, 776. Remarks on Statutes of limitations, 804. ont fixing day to vote on new Constitu tion, 814. HOLMIES, Mr., a Delegate from Hamilton — Motion to amend instructions to committee on Education, 18. Petitions presented byS, 151, 362, 458, 485, 556., 882 INDEX. INDEX. 8~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~3~~~ n Remarks on Finance and Taxation, 37, 41, 46, 54, 116, 725. us Remnarks on inviting AMir BEY to a seat within the bar of the Convention, 61. RLt, Resolution relative to procuring copies of the General Laws, 67. n Amendment to Report on Finance and Taxation, 116, 124. e, Remarks relative to contracting Public Debt for construction of works of improvements, 122. g Remarks relative to qualifications for office, 133. Clerks of Courts, 134. on the right of Legislative Repeal, 165, d 167, 170, 185, 488, 549, 607. on rights of private property taken for public use, 181, 233. Amendment to Section 35 of Report on Legisla tive Department relative to riglit of Legislative Repeal and remarks thereon, 185, 186,187, 191, 242. Amendment to Report on Legislative Depart ment relative to right of Protest, 214. Remarks relative to passage of laws to take effect Re p. upon contingency of approval by any authority s h e t e not provided for in the Constitution, 222, 226. Notice of motion to change rules relative to effect of previous question, f42. Mot tResolution to change rules relative to effect o l previous question, 277. Amendments to Report on Ex. Department, 293. Remarks on a Sinking Fund, 313. Amendments to Preamble and remarks thereon, 327, 331. Remarks on Report of Committee on Public lan1 stitutions, 340, 343. Remarks on Report of Committee on Judicial $ Department, 368, 570, 671, 681, 682. Remarks on Report and amendments on Banks, Currency, 419. Remarks on Report on future amendment to Oon stitution, 432, 433. Remarks relative to Negro Suffrage, 552. on amendment to report on Legislative Department, 566. on giving Public Printing to lowest bid der, 584. Rights* on Colonization of Black and Mulattos, 598. on amendments to Report on Corpora tions other than Banks, 673. on amendments to Report on Militia, 687. on Report on Education, 699, 704. on mnotion to reconsider Report of Se lect Committee on Temperance ques tion, 713. on resolution of Mr. SAWYER relative o duties of Secretaries, &c, 834. HUNT, Mr., a Delegate from Lucas Presentation of credentials of Mr. CIANET, 3. Petitions presented by, 5, 310. Motion to reconsider vote upon RExrmxLI's amendment to Report on Education, 17, 18. Remarks on Biennial Sessions, 147. Mtion TERo Mr., a Delegate f rom Ashtabrla - Petitions presented by, 614, 674. Remnarks onl Elective Franchise, 619. 1. IMqITATIONS TO CONVENTION — From Young Men's Mercantile Libray Assca, tion of Cincinnati, 3. From Ohio Mechanics Institute, 34. President of Western Art U;nion, 75. Amendment and remarks thereon, and Report a Banks and Currency, 416. Remarks aga;nst legalizing traffic in spirituo liquors, 437,443, 717. Remarks on Report on Legislative Departmen 567, 571, 573. Remarks on Report on amendment to Report o Preamble, &c., 488, 493. Reply to Mr. RIEFIMELIN on a question of privilege 495. Remarks on proposition to give Public Printin to l owes t bidder, 588. Remarks rel ative to Africa n C ol onization, 599. on Report of CoPmictte on Preambl e an Bill of Rights, 690. Remarks on Ap portionment, 769. su bject of Printing, 816. HOLT, Mr., a Delegate from Montgomery Mon t tCosition to incorporate Section 4 of minority Re port o n Educ ation in R epo rt of majority, 18. Remarks on Capi tal Punishment, 29. on taxing State Stocks, 100. Petitions presented by, 106. Remarks on his amendment rel ati ve to the pos session of the fee simple of real estate, the use of which only is required for the public, 229 239. Mo tion to reconsider vote by which Ex postfacte were substituted for "retroactive" in Report on Legislative Department, 277. Amendment to Report on Public Debt and Public Works, 313. Amendmen t to Report on Jurispruden ce a nd re mar ks thereon, 314, 315, 325. Remarks on a mendment to Report on Judicial Department, 389, 680, 696. Proposition and remarks thereon relative to Ballks and Currency, 392. Resolution on right of Legislative Repeal, 550. Remarks on Report and amendment to on future amendments to Constitution, 430, 435. Remarks on Legislative Repeal, 512. on granting Special Privileges, 558. on Report on Legislative Department, 561, 569, 571. Resolution instructing Committee on Bill of Rights to incorporate certain matter in their Report, 576. Remarks on Biennial Sessions, 581. relative to enactment of curative retro active laws, 592, 597. Remarks relative to State Superintendent of Com mon Schools, 706. HOOTMAN, Mr., a Delegate from Ashland — Petitions presented by, 220, 2i6, 325. HORTON, Mr., a Delegate from Meigs Remarks on Apportionment, 6, 771. on Finance and Taxation, 41, 54, 56. Oil taxing State and U. S. Stocks, 64, 65,77. Petitions presented by, 183, 331. Rermarks on the restriction of debate, 183. on Reports of Committee on Militia, 348, 350. Amendment to resolution of Mr. LEID, restrict ing debate, 524. Remarks on Bank Taxation, 789. HOUJR OF MEETING —4, 215. ttUMPHREVILLE, Mr., a D~elegate from Medina — M~otion to strike out Proviso of Section 4 of mi nority Report on Education, 18. Petitions presented by, 26, 383, 694, Remarks on Capital Punishment, 31. i 57 INDEX. 883 _ Remarks on report of Committee on Public Insti tutions, 341. on amendments to report of Committee on Judicial Department, 365. Amendment to report on Banks and Currency and r marks thereon, 419. Remarks relative to license question, 437, 439, 460. Amendment to resolution of Mr. LEIDY restrict ing debate, 524. Report of Committee on Privileges and Elections in case of Mr. VANCE, 545. Remarks on amendment to report on Legislative IDepartment, 561, 566. Amendment to remark relative to subject of Bi ennial Sessions, 581. Resolution authorizing Door Keeper to employ assistants, 654. Remarks on City Charters and Corporations, 658. Amendment and remarks on Judicial Depart ment, 668. Remarks relative to having more full report of Committee, 678. Remarks on law reform, 681. on Banks and Currency, 801. on subject of Printing, 816. L. LARSH, Mr., a Delegate from Preble Remarks on the Elective Franchise, 10. Amendments moved to report on Education, 17. Petitions presented by, 19, 140, 232, 290. Remarks relative to private property taken for public use, 181. Remarks relative to right of Repeal, 187, 626. Amendments to report on Legislative Depart ment, 214, 566. Amendments to report on Executive Department, 289. Remarks on Public Debt and Public Works, 297, 311, 426. Remarks on amendment to report of Committee on Preamble and Bill of Rig,hts, 336. Remarks on report on Public Institutions, 343. on proposition of report of Committee on the Militia, 347. on jurisdiction of Supreme Court, 858. on report of future amendments to Constitution, 428, 430. on Temperance question, 460. on a question of privilege raised by Mr. REEMELIN, 496. Re,olution relative to adoption of new Constitu tion, 677. Remarks on report on Judicial Department, 683, 684, 685. Resolution limiting time of speaking, 750. Remarks on the subject of Printing 816. Report of Committee on revision of the journal, t55. LARWILL, Mr., a Delegate from Wavne Presentation of credentials of Hon. E. WILoN, 3. Remarks on the Elective Franchise, 10. on proposition to adjourn to Columbus, 24. on Finance and Taxation, 37, 41, 114. Petition~s presented by, 44, 52, 90. Remarks on official term of Clerks of Courts, 135. on restrictron of Debate, 183. on salaries of Supreme Judges, 361. Pon report of Committee on Banks and Culrrency, 402, 414. on reportofCommittee on future nmend ments to Constitution, 429, 435, J. JtQHNSON, Mr., a Delegate from Coshocton Communications relative to vote on Report on Corporations, 693. JUDICIAL DEPARTMENT Petition relative to jurisdiction of County Courts, 26. Report of Standing Committee thereon consider ed in Committee of Whole, 131, 668, 840. Report of Standing Committee thereon consider ed in Convention, 353, 357, 364, 366, 377, 383, 396, 678, 684. Amendment proposed, 132, 133, 134, 139. Clerks of Courts, 134,139, 678, Judges, 131. M]emorial from Richard Randolph, 191. Report of Select Committee, 483. Proposition of Mr. COLLINGS on the subject, 485. Final passsage of Report, 698. .Report No. 2 of Standing Committee, 823. of Committee on Revision, &c., 835. JURISPRUDENCE Report of Standing Committee as amended in Committee of Whole considered in Convention, 314. Report of Committee ordered to be enrolled, 838. X, KENNON, Mr., a Delegate from Belmont Remarks on taxation of U. S. Bonds, 125. on term of office of Clerks of Courts, 135. on right of Legislative Repeal, 190, 253, 502, 504, 505, 506, 507. on right of way for public improve ments, 233, 234. on Report on Public Debt and Public Works, 299. Petitions presented by, 352. Remarks on amendments to report on Judicial Department, 577. 280, 385. Remarks on amendments to report on Banks and Currency, 415. Remarks on report of Committee on Temperance, 453. -Remarks on report on Legislative Department, 568. IG, Mr., a Delegate from Butler Petitions presented by, 191. Questions propounded to Mr. VANCE of Butler, 196. Remarks on the right of Legislative Repeal, 201. Amemendment relative to the right of " 242 to report on Apportionment, 821 KIRKWOOD, Mr., a Delegate from Richland6 Remarks on Finance and Taxation, 36, 37, 51, 55, 125, 789, 792, 830. iaendment proposed to Judicial Report, 133, 236. Remarks on right of way, 176. Amendment to section 38 of report on Legislative Department relative to "right of way," and re marks thereon, 180, 181, 182. Remarks on proposition to restrict debate, —. on right of Repeal, 186, 187, 190, 191, 548, 549. Amendment relative to right of Repeal, 191. ~Remarks on Public Debt and Public Works, 296, oo W98, 311. Amendment to report on Public Debt and Public Works, 313. Remarks relative to law reform, 320. on report on Preamble, 328, 329. 884 INDEX. INE.8j Remarks on amendment to report on the militia, 687. on amendment to report on Educationi, 699,702, 703. on subject of licensing sale of Ardent Spirits, 718. on statutes of limitations, &c., 804. Amendmant to report on Preamble, 825. LEECH, Mr., a Delegate from Guernsey. Remarks relative to the position of the Demo cratic party in Ohio, on the question of the right of Legislative Repeal, in reply to Mr. Case, 247, 285. Petitions presented by, 277, Amendment to report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 327. to Report of Standing Committee on Executive Department, and Re nlmarks thereon, 331, 332. on Committee and report of Edito rial Convention, 383. Remarks on report of Committee on Banks and Currency, 404, 414. on report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 466, 4-7, 489. Resolution instructing Committee to amend re port on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 559. Remarks on subject of the election of State Print. er, 560. Amendment to report on Public Printing, relative to letting to lowest bidder, and remarks there on, 582, 585. Remarks on Corporations, 685, 675. Report of Select Committee on Printing, 805. -.emarks on subject of Printing, 816. Re~)ort of Committee on Printing. 641. LEGISLATIVE DEPARTMENT Report of Standing Committee as amended ill Committee of the Whole, considered in Con vention, 141, 192, 221, 233, 560), 566, 570, 577, 596, 597, 605, 606, 607 to 60)9, 634. Terms of Senators and Representatives, 141,142. Biennial Sessions, 142 to 149, 151. 581. Mode of drawing money from State Treasury, 150. Right of Legislative Repeal, 105, 169, 166, 174, 185, 16, 1f7, 192, 242, 476, 499, 501, 502, 503, 525, 533, 539, 547, 548, 549, 6i:5, 607, 615, 616, 618, 619,624, 630. Local legislation, 175. Private property, right of way over and of ap propriation to public use, 176, 228. 230, 233. Eligibility to seat in General Assemibly 2, 2 184o 185, 186, 187.'Y o New counties and removal of county seats, 210, - 220. Compensation of members of General Assembly, and Organization of, 211. The relations of the Judiciary to the Legislative Department, debate thereon, 217. Passage of Laws to take effect upon contingency of an approval by any authority iot provided for in Constitution, 215, 221,226, 228. Contested seats, 219, 228. Fee simple of real estate of which the use only is appropriated to public use, 229. Report No. 2, of Standing Committee, 318. oOf Committee on Revision and Enroll ment, 831. LIDEY, Mr., a Delegate from Perry Amendment relative to organization of, 214. Petitions presented by, 317. Amendment to report on Preamble and Bill of , Rights, 326, Remarks on report of Select Committee of Tem perance, 456. Amendment to resolution of Mr. LIDEY restrict ing debate, 524. Remuarks on granting Specil Privileges, 557. on amendment to report on Legislative Department, 590. on Legislative Repeal, 617. on report on Judicial Department, 698. o n Appor tionment, 772, 773, Amendment to report No. 2 on the Schedule a-nd remarks the reon, 813, 814. Remarks on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 815. on Corporations, 850. LAWRENCE, Mr., a Delegate from Guernsey Remarks on Cap i tal PunishLment, 20, 22. on propositon n to adjourn to a Columbus, 24. on the course pursued by Editor of Ohio Statesman relative to July adjourn Inent, 24. on his resolution inviting AmiN BEY to a s eat within bar of Convention, 61, Record of vote on resolution exempting U. S. Bonds from taxation, 131. Petitions presented by, 176, 212, 277. Rema rks on compensation of members of the General Assembly, 213, 21 24. Remarks on the rights of private property for public use, 237,239. Rem arks on right of Legi slative Repeal, 546. on giving pt blic Printing to lowest re sponsible bidder, 586. on report of Committee on Militia, 687. Communication from Mr. JoHNsoN\ of Coshocton, 693. Remnarks on the traffic in intoxicating drinks, 712, 7t4, 721, 722. Remarks on the Apportionment, 748, 749, 772. Resolution fixing per diem of Messenger boys, 803. Resolution instructing Committee on Revision to amend report on miscellaneous subjects, 850. Rernkrks on Finance and Taxation, 852. Resolution tendering vote of thanks to the Cler gmyen of Cincinnati, 853. Rosolution tendering vote of thanks to Young Men's Mercantile Library Association, 855. LEADBETTER, Mr., a delegate from Holmes Resolution appointing H. Okey, Sergeant-at arms, 8. Remarks relative to article on Education, 17. on Capital Punishment, 22, 23. Petitions presented by, 106, 556. Remarks on the Right of Legislative Repeal, 172, 547. Motion to adjourn, 278. Amendment to Report on Public Debt and Public Works, 312, 363. Report on Executive Department, 348. Remarks on Report, Preamble and Bill of Rights, 462, 471. Report of Select Committee on Judiciary Depart mnent, 483. Remarks in relation to African Colonization, 598. on amendment to Report on Corpora tions other than Banks, 643, 650,. on Judiciary Reform, 6X3. on Taxing Skate Stocks, 737, 738, 740, 741. Resolutions and remarks on his resolutions, hav ing full reports of Convention, 677. Amendmcnct to report Sof Judiciary, 685. INDEX. 885 88 INEX Amendment to report on Legislative Department and remarks thereon, 580. 596. Remarks on Rights of Legislative Repeal, 618. on Election and term of County Offi cers, 640. on resolution of Mr. SAWTFxR, relative to Address to the People, 677. A n eDAmendment to report on Judicial Department, 678. Remarks on amendments to report on Education, 702. on Apportionment, 766, 767, 768, 774, 782. on subject of Printing, 816. Amendment to report on the Schedule, 817. on Apportionnment, 821. Remarks on resolution of Mr. SAWYER, relative to Printing 3,000 copies of the Convention Jour nals, 855. MARRIED WOMEN, their rights — Petitions relative thereto, 26. MASON, Mr., a Delezate from Clark Remarks on the Elective Franchise, 10. Motion relative to provision for separate educa tion of colored children, 13. Remarks on Education, 17. on Capital Punishment, 31, 32. on Finance and Taxation, 40, 57, 58. Amendment proposed to Section 3, of Report on Finance and Taxation and remarks thereon, 106, 113. Remarks on term of office of Clerks of Courts, 135, 138, 139. onl term of office for Senators and Rep reseintatives, 147, Petitions presented by, 151. Amendmenit relative to organization of. Passage of Laws to take effect upon contingen cies, 219, 226. Remarks on rights of private property taken for Public use, 230. in support of his proposition for "Qual ified Veto Power," 292. in support of his proposition for the es tabli.shment of a Bureau of Statistics in office of Secretary of State, and remarks thereon, 293, 755. on report on Preamble, 329. Public Institutions, 342. on term of office of Supreme Judges, 359. on report on future Amendments to Committee, 435. against legalizing the sale of Spirituous Liquors, 454. in relation to a question of Privilege raised by Mr. REEMELIN, 496. on granting Special Privileges, 558. on report oni Legislative Department 562. relative to Expost facto laws, 589. on subject of Curative laws, 590, 591, 595. on right of Legislative Repeal, 619. on Judiciary Reform, 671, 673. on Representative Apportionment, 763, 848. Amendment to report on Corporations other than banking, and remarks thereon, 849. McCLOUD, Mr., a Delegate from Madison — Petitions presented by, 5, 220, 361. Remarks on Capital Punishment, 21. Remarks on amendments to report on Public In stitutions, 342. on report of Committee on Militia, 346, 350. Amendment to report of Select Committee on Temperance, 448. Resolution restricting debate, 506. Amendment to report on Legislative Depart ment, 562. Resolution relative to reception of Petitions, 614. Report on Militia, 651, 687. Remarks on report on Education, 702. LOUDON, Mr., a Delegate from Brown Remarks on Finance and Taxation, 35, 36, 40,42, 44, 52, 54, 58, 117, 119, 123, 723, 732, 735, 745, 852. on salaries of Judicial officers, 134. on compensation of members of Gener al Assembly, 213. on contested election, 220. Petitions presented by, 256, 325, 239, 348, 352, 413. Proposition for Evening Sessions, 323. Remarks on report of Committee on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 337. on report of Committee on Militia, 347, 350, 351. on report of Committee on Judicial De partment, 391, 680, 697. on Iamendment to report of Banks and Currency, 403. on amendment to report on Legislative Department, 567, 574. on question of Order, 596. Resolution relative to holding night Sessions, 628. Report on Standing Committee No. 2, on Finance and Taxationii, 651. Remarks on Banks, taxation, 665, ] 91, 827. lil. :IANON, Mr., a Delegate from Licking Remarks on motion to amend Apportionment Report, 6. Petitions presented by, 7, 287, 339, 457. UMotion to amend report on Elective Franchise, and remarks thereon, 8. to amend amendment to report on Edu cation, 1 4. P,aemarks on Taxation, 41, 44, 51, 118, 723, 744, 746. iResolution to amend report on Finance and Tax ation, and remarks thereon, 128. Itemarks on his motion to amend "Judicial Re port," 132, 793. on Terms of Clerks of Court, 135. on Terms of Senators and Representa tives, 142, 144. on'rights of private property taken for Public use, 230, 232. on report on Public Debt and Public Works, 298, 306, 362. on the Restriction of Debate, 317. on Preamble, 328, 557. On amendment to report on Banks and Currency, 404, 414.; in relation to the Temperance Question, 448, 459, 715, 788,: on Resolution to adjourn, 4-62. On report on Legislative Department, 562, 568, 575.2 Resolution relative to furnishing Inquirer and Gazette with list of absentees on the Journlal at; every call of Convention, 566. 886 INDEX. INDEX. 887~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Remarks in reply to Messrs. HITCHICOCK and STAN BRY, 234. relative to rig,hts of private property taken for public use, 236, 238. Amendment to report on "Pablic Works and Pub lic Debt," 313. Remarks on "Law Reform," 316, 320. Amendment and remarks on report of Committee of Public Institutions, 343. Resolution relative to the hour of meeting, 854. Remarks on report of Committee on Militia, 351. on amendment to report on Judicial De partmenit, 368, 377, 381. Reply to Mr. HOLT'S speech on Banks and Cur rency, 396, 403. Plan for a Judiciary System, 401. Remarks on report of Committee on Public Debt and Public Works 425. Apportionment, 753, 765, 770. amendment to Preamble and Bill of Rights, 476, 689. resolution restricting debate, 506. Petitions presented by, 556. Remarks on the subject of Printing, 816. on a ques tion of Privile ge, 570, 594, 595, 856. Amendment to report on Legislative Departmen t and remarks thereon, 580. Remarks on giving public printing to lowest bidder, 588. Speech on Corporation s, 654.1 Remarks on report of Select Comnmiittee on Tem perance, 722. Amendment to report aon Temperance, 788. Remarks on amendments to report on the Sched usle 844. MORRIS, M., a Delegate from Clinton Presentaxtion of Petitions, 4, 119, 232, 256, 277, 290, 325, 593. Remarks on Capital Punishmen t, 33. Amendine,t relative to terms of Clerks of Courts, 135,138. Remarks on Biennial Sessions, 148. Amendment relative to compensation of members of General Assembly and remarks thereon, il Remarks on his proposition to dispense with the legal fictions of John Doe and Rich ard Roe, in lawpr oceedi ngs, 320, 321. against traffic in Spirituous liquors,453. relative to passage of Curative laws, 591. 'N. NASH, Mr., a Delegate from Galliang Resolution accepting invitation of Y. M. L. As sociation, 4. ' Remarks on motion to amend report on "Educa tion," 13, 16, 17. on Finance and Taxation, 105. on yr. MITCHELL's amendment to Mr. MASON'S proposition providing for inviolability Of "Public faith," 113. on Biennial Sessions, 154, 155, 581. on New Counties, 210. Amendment relative to compensation of members of General Assembly, 2: 4. Rermarks on the relations of the Judiciary to the General Assembly, 218. relative to the powers of the General Asserab!~, 221. relative to uniformity of lawrs, 226. Petitions presented by, 242, 31 t, 362. Remarks on report on'Public Debt and Public i ~~~~Works," 297, 36U2. report on Juriaprudenee, 315, 324. Pr-oposition for Senatorial Apportionment,. 09. Remiarks on report of Comimittee on Appo,;'ioIn menit, 751. McdORMICK, Mr., a Delegate frora Adams Remarks on Apportionment, 6. on his amendment to report on "Educa tion," 15. on proposition to adjourn to Colum bus, 23. on taxing State Bonds, 81. on taxing United States Bonds, 127. Amendments proposed to Judiciary Report, rela tive to compensation of Judges, and remarks thereon, 133, 134. Remarks relative to Clerks of Courts and Coun ties, 137. on terms of Senators and Representa tives, 145, 146. or. Editorial in Ohio State Journal, 148. on rights of private property taken for Public use, 180. Amendment to report on Legislative Department, relative to eligibility to scnt in the Assembly, 182. Remarks relative to right of Legislative Repeal, 248, 266. Petitions pres ented by, 29 0, 556, 744. AmCendment to rep ort on"Public Debt and Public Works," 313. Remarks on jurisdiction of Supreme Court, 357. Repo rt fro m Select Cone uittee on retailing ardent s pirits, 362, 694, 714. remarks on report and amendm ents t o same, of Comaroittee of Judicial Departm ent, 373, 682. on report and amendment to same, on Balks and Cuirrency, 418. in relation to prohliibiting sale of Spir ituous liquors, 436, 446, 459. on amendment to Preamble and Bill of Rights, 465, 471, 689. Amendment to report on Judicial Department, 685. Remarks on amendments to report on Education, 700, 702. Resolution relative to a plan for Judicial Dis tricts, 726. Amendment to report on Finance and Taxation, 826, MILITIA Report No. 2, of Standirma Comnmittee, 220. considered in Coin'vention, 346, 350. Com. ittee of Whole, 687. IIITCHELL, Mr., a Delegate from Knox — Remarks on Capital Punishment, 30, 31. Clhurchi Taxation, 46, 48, 50. Finance and Taxation, 57, 745, 830. on Taxinig State Stocks, in reply to Mr. HORTON, 66. Mr. SAWYER'S notion to pass report on Finance and Taxation, 90. taxsing State Stocks, 103. Proposition to amenid Mr. MAsoN's amendment to report on Finance and Taxation, 90. ]Remarks on mode of drawing money from thee Treasulry, 150. on the right of Legislative Repeal, 168, 17S, 174, 159, 4~6, 51:3, 51, 607, 625. Amendmenlt relative to eligibility to office, 18.3. R~emarks on compensation of members of Gen era~l Assemnbly, 212. on the power of Suspending Laws, 219. on submilssion df laws ~o~ t~he People, '2s2. I i INDEX. 887 INDEX. Amendment to report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 465. Remarks on his amendment to report on Legisla tive Department, 580. Amtendment to report on Legislative Department, 5~9. Resolution relative to provision in Constitution granting title to every man's home and remarks thereon, 803, 804. PECK, Mr., a Delegate from Belmont Petitions presented by, 131, 256, 339, 469. P'ERKINS, Mr., a Delegate from Trumbull Remarks relative to taxation of State Stocks, 108. Amendment relative to eligibility to office, 182. Petitions presented by 317. Amendment and remarks of report of Committee on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 338, 464. Resolution appointing Committee to report a Ju diciary System, 402. Remarks oni Temperance question, 437, 438. erection of new Counties, 590. African Colonization, 598. a proposition to prevent immigra tion of Blacks arid Mulattos, 601. proposition of Mr. SAWYER relative to bringing up unfinished journals after the adjournment of Conven tion, 833. Remarks on resolution to print 3,900 copies of Convention journals, 855. PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS Remarks on report on Preamble and Bill of rights, 326, 326, 334 335, 465, 556, 688, 689. of Committee on Militia, 346, 351. Salaries of Supreme Judges, 361. am-enidments to report on Banks and Currency, 417. report of Select Committee on sub ject of Temperance, 437, 448, 452. Amendment to report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 466, 468. Remarks relative to right of suffrage, 553. Resolution relative to filling vacancy in Commit tee on Preamble, 559. Remarks on report on Legislative Department, 561, 562, 566, 567, 569, 571, 574. relative to Expost facto laws, 589. relative to excluding colored persons from our State, 604. relative to legislative repeal, 620, 631, 632. Resolution relative to altering Standing rules of C onvention, 6 35. Speech on Corporations, 647. Remarks on Representative and Senatorial Ap portionment, 759. Amendment to report on the Schedule and re marks on same, 817, 843. NORRIS, Mr., a Delegate froia Clermont Petitions presented by, 183, 242, 674. Remarks on report of Committee on Executive Department, 332. Report of Standing Committee on Corporations other than Banks, 565. Amendment to report on Corporations, 841. Remarks on amendments to report on Corpora tions, 849. PETITIONS Against laws licensing the sale of intoxicating drinks, 4, 5, 7, 34, 44, 67, 90,106,119, 131,140, 151, 159, 169, 176, 183, 192, 200, 212, 220, 232, 242,256, 277, 287, 290, 294, 310, 317, 325, 331, 339, 348, 352, 361, 382, 383, 392, 402, 413, 424, 427, 434, 435, 457, 458, 461, 468, 4ti9, 485, 506, 523, 556, 576, 614, 651, 674, 684, 694, 710, 726, 744, 753, 795. ,For equal rights, 5, 192, 232, 277. For a provision against the emigration of black Aede and mulatto persons into the State, 5, 140,158, 191,339. For an amendment to report of standing commit tee on Judicial Department, 26. On subject of Law Reform, 26. For an extension and greater security of the rights of married women, 26, 556, 628. For the expulsion of any member of General As sembly, who shall present himself, on the floor of either House, drunk during the Session, 26. t 21 For a provision prohibiting fugitive slaves, or Rmr persons claimed as such, being taken out of the State, 90. For a provision exempting certain persons from performing military duty, 119. That the new Constitution may recognize God, and Jesus Christ as his mediator, 120, For the listing for taxable purposes all individ ual and corporate property, 131, 331. Against the exclusive right of licensed to practice in Courts of Justices, and for ex tension of Jurisdiction of Justices of the Peace, 140. For the taxation of all property equally, 151,192 Relative to right of trial by jury, tenure of Judi cial office and Jurisdiction of Courts of Com mon Pleas, 191. Against the prohibition of the use of ardent spir its, 100. For a Gold aud Sil-ver Currencyv, 220,!177. ORDER OF BUSINESS Statement of at opening Winter Session, 3. ORTON, Mr., a Delegate from Sanduskyo Petitions presented by, 26, 34. Amendment to "Preamble and Bill of Rights," 327. Resolution for sine die adjournment, 352. Amendment to report on Legislative Department, 563. Remarks relative to giving Public Printing to lowest bidder, 385. on subject of Printing, 816. OTIS, Mr., a Delegate from Summit Amendment relative to formation of new Coun ties, 211. Remarks relative to Fee Simnple of real estate ap propriated to public use, 229. Petitions presented by, 361, 576. Remarks on amendments to report on Judicial Department, 386, 383. Amendment to Mr. LOUDnoN's resolution relative to night Sessions, 628. Petitions presented by, 710. Remarks on Church Taxation, 733, 737. Apportionment, 752, 758, 766, 767, 768,769. Bank Taxation, 789. P. PATTERSON, Mr., a Delegate from Highland Resolution restricting debate, 212. Motion to reconsider vote on Section 31, of re port on Legislative Department relative to sub mission of laws to approval by the People, 222. 284, 291, 496,497. 0. INEX 88 For a provision limiting the amount of land here after to be acquired in the State to 160 acres, and for a Homestead Exemption, 220. For a provision prohibiting the General Assem bly from creating Banking Institutions, 277. For a provision authorizing the formation of counties with an area of 300 miles square, 290. For a provision making it an indictable offence for the members of the General Assembly to disobey the instructions of their constituents, 325. For a provision for the speedy collection of small debts, 339. For a provision against sectional and religious tennets to be taught in schools, and requiring all school expenses to be paid out of State Treasury, 413. For a provision in the new Constitution making an oath taking unnecessary, 446. For a provision defining the basis of Government, having banking corporations and the sale of ardent spirits the people, 556. For a uniform standard by which judges of elec tion can determine color of persons asking privilege to vote, 614. POLL TAX Section thereto relative considered, 34. PRAYER Resolution to invite Clergy from Cincinnati to open Sessions with, 4. Sessions opened with, 7, 14, 20, 26, 44, 53, 67, 106, 119, 139, 151, 158, 191. 212,277, 325, 339, 352, 361, 369, 399, 424, 457, 461, 468, 483, 545, 651, 674, 696, 726, 818. PkEAMBLE AND BILLL OF RIGHTS Report of standing committee, 231. considered irn Convention, 326, 463, 688, 825, 337, 462, 469, 476, 486, 507, 557. Resolution, with, Mr. HOLT, with proposition, 550. final passage of, 693. Report of standing committee on revision, 806, ,26. Resolution of Mr. HFNDxaSON amending same 811. PRESIDENT, HON. WM. MEDILL, a Delegate from Fairfield Statement of the order of business at opening of winter session, 3. Various announcements by, 7, 314, 783,841, 853. Illness of, announced, 7. Petitions presented by, 34, 159, 232, 399, 485. Points of order, 91, 130, 164, 212, 414, 493, 498, 549, 596, 849, 856. Communications presented by, 334, 81, 75, 158, 159, 164, 184, 281, 32.2, 383, 369, 789. Remarks on resolutiun restricting debate, 406. Announcement of select committee relative to ter mination of officers under existing constitution. Remarks on enrolling Preamble, 827. PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Credentials of new members referred to, 3, 533. Report of committee on, 7, 26, 545. PUBLIC DEBT AND PUBLIC WORKS Report standing committee as amended in com mittee of the whole, considered in Conlvention, 295, 36.2, 425. Debts of counties, towins and cities not be assu med by the Legislature, 295. Amount of money to be raised, annual, for payo ment of public dlebt, 295. Sinking fund, 313. IUBLIC INSTlTUTIONS-t Report on, considered in Convention, 340, q QUIGLEY, Mr., a Delegate from Columbiana Remarks on education, 11, 14. on capital punishment, 26. Petitions presented by, 131, 232, 310. Remarks on amendments to report on banks and currency, 405. Remarks on legislativ e repeal, 617. RANDOLPH, RICHARD Memorial from, 191. RANNEY r., Mr., a Delegate from Trumbull Remarks on his motion to ame nd Report on elee tive Franchise, 9, 10. on educa tion, 16. on capital punishment, 22, 23. on the levying of a poll tax, 34, 35. on finance and taxation, 43, 49, 829, 852. on taxinga State and Un ited States stocks, 76, 77, 78, 127. On e lecon p n of clerks of courts, 134, 135, 136, 137. on b iennial sessions, 145, 581. Motion to am end section 35 of Report on legisla tive dep art ment, 165. Remarks on the right of legislative re peal, 173, 188, 617, 619, 6 21. Amendment to right of legislative repeal, 608, 619. Remarks on rights of private property take n for public use, 178, 249. Peittion s presented by, 192, 232. Amendment relative forma tion of new countie, 211. Remarks relative to suspension of laws, 215. to public school laws, 228. to submission of laws to the people, 227, 228. Amendment relative to compensatien o f e Go-r. n or, 291. Remarks on public debt and public works, 299, 310. on Report'on jurisprudence, 315, 315, 319, 320. on his amendment to Report and Ph 328, 329, 330, 337. Report on future amendments to coustitutibn, 339. Amendment to Report of committee on public h stitutions, 341. Remarks on election of supreme judges by tVe people, 356. on amendments to Report of commit* on judicial department, 364, 367, 373, 385, 685, 696. on amendments to Report of commit on bank currency, 416. on Report on future amendments to eco stitution, 429, 431. Resolution authorizing committee on revision to direct certain printing, 435, 459. Remarks on amendments to Report on Preamble, &c., 462, 477, 479, 481, 488, 491, 492, 690, 815. Personal Remarks on the repeal question, 545. Remnarks on Report onl legislative departmentb 561, 563, 575. relative to enactment of curative lax, -591. on question of privilege, 596. Amendment fixing term of time of electing eoaa. ty officers, 641. Remarks on cit~y corporations, 658. on taxing corporations, 665. INDEX. 890 INDEX~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.v Amendment to Report on corporations other than banking, 674. Remarks ~on apportionment, 753, 767, 769, 773, 776. Report of select committee on revision, 806, 826, 831, 834. Report of select committee on education, 821. Amendments to Report on finance and taxation, 851. REEEMELIN, Mr., a Delegate from Hamilton Remarks on his motion to amend Report appor tionment, 5. on the elective franchise, 9. on education, 11, 16, 17. Resolution callingfor Reports of State officers, 17. Petitions presented by, 26, 131, 220, 331, 413. Remarks on church taxation, 44, 47, 723, 725, 726, 728, 729,736. on his amendment providing that the nealect to list monies loaned on liqui dated credits should be a bar to the collection of the same, 55, 56. relative to date of issue of State stocks, 75, 107. fro m select c omm ittee relative to public documents, 81, 85. relat ive t o bank taxation, 116. On postponing discussion on finance and taxation, 118. Resoluiion relative to furnishing index constitu tional convention with certain documents, 119. Remarks on salaries of judicial and other officers, 123, 134. on bie nnial sessions, 142, 145. on right of legi slative repeal, 174, 196 273, 2769, 499, 501,61 2, 613, 627, 630. on right of private property taken for publi c use, 177, 235. on claim against the State, 182. Amendment to Report on leg isla tive d epartment relative to eligibility to seat in General As6em bly, 211,212, 213. Amendment relative to organization of errouse of Represe ntative, 214. Remarks relative to passage of laws to take ef fect upon contingencies, 222, 224. Amendment'relative to formation of new coun ties, 240. Remarks on the question of "repealability of charters" in reply to Mr. Kennon, 276. Amendments to Report on executive department, 289, 290, 293. Remarks on Report on public debts and public works, 298, 310. on his amendment to Report on "Pre amble" and remarks, 238, 469, 470. on his amendment to Report on "Pre amble" and remarks, 339. on amendment to Report of standing committee on Preamble and bill of rights, 335, 338, 462, 466, 439. Resolution committee instructing them to inquire into cause of delay in publishing debates, 341. Remarks on Report of committee on public insti tutions, 340. on election of supreme judges by the r eople, 353. on salaries of supreme judges, 361. Speech on Report on banks and currency, 406. R~emarks on Report on banks and currency 414, 417. Remarks on Report on future amendmnents to con stitution, 340. relative to licensing the sale of ardent spirits, 436, 459, 728. n t,'3 7,on amendments to Report on Preamble and bill of rights is relation to cred R r fi, 86 it and collection of debts, 473, 486, 498. on amendments to Report on preamble and bill of rights in relation to re peal, 499. on a question of privilege, 494. R*marks on a question of order in debate of right of repeal, 549. on granting special privileges, 557. on Report on legislative department, 561, 562, 563, 564, 567, 568, 569, 571, 572, 574, 579. on question of privilege raised by Mr. MITCHELL, 570. Amendment on Report on legislative department, 577. Remarks relative to public printing and State printer, 589, 816. on question of privilege, 594, 595, relative to prohibiting immigration of blacks and mulattoes, 601. on election of county officers, 640, 641. on subject of city charters and corpora tions, 657, 658, 665. on Report of committee on coporations, other than banking, 674, 675. on Mr. SAWYER'S resolution relative to having more full Reports of Conven tion, 677. en b n sson amendments to Report on education, 699, 700, 704, 705, 711. Resolutions relative to corporations other than banking, 726. Amendment to and remarks on Report on finance and taxation, 747, 828, 8!29. Remarks on apportionment, 757, 759, 777, 778, 783. on finance and taxation, 754, 789, 792. Amendment to Report on apportionment, 767, 781. Remarks on Mr HOLT's proposition relative to banks and currency, 795. Report of majority of select committee onr finance and taxation, 818, 819. Remarks relative journals of Convention, 833. REPEAL OF LAWS Right of, 165, 169, 185. 191, 242, 270, 476, 513, 518, 548, 612, 613, 615, 617, 620, 621, 624, 626, 629, 630. Mr. STANTON's amendment to section 35 of Report on legislative department, 1X6, 169. Mr. VANcE, of Butler's, amemendmnent, 168, 175, 242. Mr.- HUMPHrEVILLE'S anmendment to section 35 of Report on legislative department, 185, 187, 191, 192, 209. Mr. RANNEY's amendment to Report on legislative department, 608, 625. Mr. SwAN's amendment to Report on legislative. repeal, 618. 3Mr. KmRKwOOD's amendment to Report on legisla. tive repeal, 630. REPORTS OF DEBATES_ Correction of errors, 131, 294. RESOLUTtONS~ Of Mr. NiSH, accepting of invitation of library assoc iation, 4 f GtREEN-E, of Defiance, for opening morning sessions with prayer, 4. I i INDEX. 890 -~~~IDX 89 BLIC]ErNSDERFE relative to census returns, 4. Fixing the hour of meeting, 4, 215, 399, 559F, 593. HAWKINS, for transmission of copy to prin ter to the Convention, 5. DoRsEY, relative to amendment of Reports of standing committees, 5. CAMBE,RS, relative to improvement of Con vention hall, 7, 23. M.&oN,relative to retrenchment of expen ses ofConvention, 7. Committee, relative to transmission of Re ports to printer, 7. LEADBETTER, appointing Henry Okey Ser geant-at -Arms, 8. REEMELIN, calling tor Reports of State offi cers, 17. Reported by select committee relative to census returns, 20. GROFSBECK, providing seats for reporters of Cincinnati press, 20. Relative to adjournment to Columbus, 24. To invitation from Mechanic's Institute, 34. H-UMPHREVILLE, relative to procuring copies of general laws, 67. CASE, of Licking, relative to binding of de bates, 67. HITCHCOCK, of Cuyahoga, calling upon An ditor for information relative to issue of State stocks, 75. Thanks to officers Western Art Union, 76. From select committee relative to public documents, 81. On adjournment, 81,136. Relative to furnishing Indiana Constitu tianal Convention with certain docu ments, 90, 119. Amending Report on finance and taxa& tion, 124, 128. For procuring copies of "Chase's Statutes. Inviting United States Senator HAL] to seat within the bar of the Convention chamber, 159. Of thanks to city council of Cincinnati,, 1i9. Relative to restrictions of time consumedt by any member in debate, 13, 212, 506. LAr~s, limiting debate, 750. MASON, relative to establishment of bureau of statistics, 755. SAWYER, limiting debate, 775. LAWRENCE, fixing per diem of message boys, 803. PATTERSON, relative to provision against de fective titles to real estate, 803. STANTON, relative to printing, 805. HzNDESON, amending preamble, 811. EWEALT, amending Report on legislative department, 818. RANNEY, amending Report on schedule, 819. ST[LWELL, amending Report on schedule, 819.laofpbiainodeae,30 ScOTT, of Auglaize, amending Report on HOLMES, amending Report on schedule, 819.sprt,32 STICKNEY, amending Report on Schedule, 819. pitr C~33 CAsE, of Licking, relative to submitting hard money section of Report on banks, &c., to the people, 819. DORSEY, relative to banks, 814. LIDEY, amending Report on sche(ldule, 824 STANTON, relative to submitting to a sepa rate vote the question of single Senatori al and Representative districts, 824. SAWYER, relative to the journals of Convenr tion, 833. MITCHamc, providing for night sessions, 834. t Select committee on printing, 841. STANBEaY, on the subject of corporations, 844. STANTON, to take a recess, 845. STICKNEY, fixing the time to vote on consti tution, 843. SCOTT, relative to election of State officers, 845. GREsEN, of Defiance, fixing hour of meet ing, 845. GROESBECK, relative to extra compensation to clerks of Convention, 845. SAWYER, relative to extra compensation bo clerks of Convention, 853. LAWRENCE, tending a vote of thanks Io clergymen of Cincinnati, 853. CASE allowing mileage to secretaries, se geant-at-arms and door keepers, 853. CHAMBERS, relative to appointing commit tee to take charge of property of State in Convention hall, 853. GRE,EN, of Ross, tendering a vote of thanks to Hon. Wm. MEDILI,, 854. STANBERY, tendering a vote of thanks to W. H. GILL, Secretary, and J. V. SKwM and Assistant Reporters to Convention, I54. CASE, of Licking,tendering avote of thanks to Sergeant-at-arms, door keepers and messenger boys, 854. RIiDDLE, instructing committee on revision to amend the Report on miscellaneous subjects, 854. CAsE, of Licking, in regard to binding Re ports of Convention, 854, 855. SAWErR, relative to printing 30'00 copies of Convention journals, 855. LAWRENCE, tendering thanks of Convention to Young Men's Mercantile Library As sociation, 855. CASE, of Licking, authorizing President of Convention to audit accounts of Repor ter and Assistants, 855. RIDDLE, relative to comparing journal, 856. BENNETT, directing Sergeant-at-arms to dis tribute pamphlet copies of constitution among the members of Convention, 856. Precluding farther debate on Report on legislative department, 212. Limiting effect of the previous question, 277. REEMELIN, relative committee heretofore appointed on the subject con nected wifh Reporter to the Convention lay of publication of d ebates, 340. ORTON, for adjournment, 352. Se 1McCoMIacK, from select committee on' li cense laws prohibit ing traic in ardent spirits, 362. Editorial conventio~ relative to a State printer, &ic., 383. PrERsIs, appointing a committee to report a judiciary system, 402. RANNsr., relative to authorizing certiain I INDEX. 891 89 INEX on resolution to instruct standing corn on, finance and taxation, 125. on resuming consideration of Report on legislative department, 140, 141. on terms for senators and representa tives, 147. on the right of legislative repeal, 166, Resolution restricting debate, 183. Remarks on granting use of hall for lectures, 184 on formation of new counties, 2i0. on right of way for public improve ments, 239. Amendment relative to right of legislative repeal, 242, 270, 548. Remarks relative to Mr. CAsE's question of privy lege, 286. on public debt and public works, 29~, 262. on communication of J. V. SMITH, t porter, 369. on amendments of committee on judi, cial department, 376, 368. on amendments to Report on banks and currency, 410. on Report on future amendments bo constitution, 432. on Report of select committee on temn perance, 439, 440, 637, 638, 788. on amendments to Report of committee preamble, 464, 827. Personal explanation of, in reply to Mr. How KINS' charges against Mr. ROBINSON, 496. Remarks relative to NIfegro suffrage, 553. on Report on legislative department, 561,'566, 567 573. on biennial sessions, 581. on giving public printing to lowest bib der, 584, 587, 588. on corporations, 651, Resolutions and remarks appointing committee to draft addrsss to people of Ohio on adoption of new constitution, 676. Remarks on Report of committee on education, 704. on finance and taxation, 746, 851. on his amendments to Report on appor tionment, 771, 772, 777. Resolution limiting debate and remarks thereon, 775. Resolution providing for transcribing journals after adjournment and remarks thereon, 833. Report of select committes on finance and tam tion, 841. Remarks on amendments to Report on schedule, 843. Resolution relative to compensation of Secreta ries and remarks, 853. printing 3000 copies Con, vention journals, 855. SERGEANT-AT-ARMS, H. OKEY from Monroe Resignation of Mr. CAaROLTON, 7. Dispatched for absentees, 176, 187, 209. SCOTT, Mr., a Delegate from Auglaize Resolution amending schedule, 819. relative io election of State officers, 845. SMITH, Mr., a Delegate from Warren Petitions presented'by, 5, 232, 294, 317 331, 523. Remarks on improvement of Convention hall, 23. on capital punishment, 29. on taxing State stock, 72. on terms of Senators and Represents fives 147. printing to be done for committee on re vision, 435. LEEcH, instructing committee to amend Re port on preamble, 559. NASH, relative to filling vacancy in com mittee on preamble, 359. MANNox, relative to furnishing Enquirer and Gazette with list of absentees, 566. EWART, providing for expiration of terms of judicial officers and transferring busi ness to those elected under new consti tution, 593. MITCHELL, requiring certain committees to make report, 594. LOUDON, relative to night sessions, 628. NASH, altering of standing rules of Con vention, 635. STILWELL, providing for fixed salaries of members of General Assembly, 653. WORTHINGTON, relative to creation of new counties, 653. KIRKWOOD, authorizing employment of as sistant door keeper, 654. SAWYER, appointment to address to people on adoption of new constitu tion, 676. LARSH, on the subject of voting for or against adoption of new constitution, 677. SAWYER, relative to having more full Re ports of Convention, 677. McCoR,ic,, on the subject of judicial dis tricts, REEI,IELIN, relative to corporations other than banking, 726. RIDDLE, Mr., a Delegate from Hamilton Iotion to strike out first section of Report on capital punishment, 20. Petitions presented by, 24. 10, 339, 744. Report from select committee, 159. Remarks on salaries of supreme judges and gov ernor, 361. Amendmendment to Report of committee on judi cial department, 398. Remarks on Report of committee on legislative department, 575. *on finance and taxation, 852. Amendment to Report on miscellaneous subjects, 854. Resolution relative to comparing journals of con venition, 856. ROLL, Mr., a Delegate from Hamilton Remarks on amendments to Report on banks and currency, 405. Resolution allowing $1,50 per day to James Pol lock, Lamp Lighter, &c., 851. SAWYER, Mr., a Delegate from Auglaize Remarks on elective franchise, 8. on his motion to insert the word'white' in Report on education, 11. on capital punishment, 21. on adjournment to Columbus, 1v5. on the levying of a poll tax, 35. on taxing church and other p~roperty and burial grounds, 60, 61,-62, 7~5, Resolution relative to filrnishing index constitu tion Convention with certain documents, 90). :Remarks on continuing discussion of Report on finance and taxation, 90. in reply to Mr. MAsoN and relative tax ation of State bonds, 114. " INDEX. 892 INDEX. 893 of thanks to Secretary, Assistants and Reporters to Convention, t54. STANTON, Mr., a Delegate from Logan Petititions presented by, 220. Resolution of thanks to officers of Western Art Union, 76. Remarks on taxing State and United StatesBonds, 83. Record of vote on proposition to exempt United States Bonds from taxation, 131. Resolution for adjournment, 136. Remarks on biennial sessions, 144. on the right of Legislative repeal, 165, 623, 624, 692. Amendments to section 35 of report on Legisla tive Department relative to repeal, 166, 169. Remarks on erroneous publication of his speech of December 13th, 200. Amendment relative to compensation of member of General Assembly, 211. Remarks on submission of laws to the people, 223, 227. on retroactive and curative laws, 240. Amendments to report on Executive Department, 288, 289. Remarks on his amendment to report on Public Debt and Public Works, 300, 306. on election of Supreme Judges by the people, 355, 356. Amendment to report of committee on Judicial Department and remarks thereon, 386. Remarks on Apportionment, 753, 767, 768, 783, 786. against legalizing trade in spirituous liquors, 438, 444, 445, 456, 705, 716. in relation to enactment of curative laws, 593,596. on election and term of county officers, 640. Amendment reply to Mr. ARCHBOLD'S proposition on Municipal corporations, 660, 661. be3.Remarks on amendments to report on Education, 704, 705. on proposition of Mr. PATTERSON, secu ring title to real estate, 804. Resolution relative to printing, 805. Amendment to report on the Schedule, 817. Remarks on changing his vote on report on Fi nance and Taxation, 834. on Finance and Taxation, 840. Resolution to adjourn, 845. requiring of Secretary of State to print one thousand copies of enrolled Constitution, 852. STEBBINS, Mr., a Delegate from Lucas Petitions presented by, 34. STIDGER, Mr., a Delegate from Stark Motion to enter communication of Library Asso ciation on Journal, 4. Petitions presented by, 7. Remarks on his report on Education, 11, 18. Amendment to report on Preamnlle, 330. on Judicial D pma tment, and remarks thereon, 396,397. Report on standing committee on Education, No. 2, 663, 706. STICKNEY, Mr., a Delegate from Seneca Petitions pr es en ted by, 461. -Remarks on law reform, 681. Resolution fixing timde to vote on ratifying Cons stitultionl, 845. S T1LWELL, Mr., a Delegate from Muskingum — Petitions presented by, 44, 140, 290, 317. Amendments to section 35 of Report on legisla tive department. 165. Motion for adjournment, 169, 176. Amendment to section 31 of Report on legislative department relative to uniform op eration of laws, 225, 227. relative to rights of private proerty, 228, 229. to report of committee on public in stitutions, Remarks on the final adoption of constitution, 866. SMITH, J. V., Reporter to Convention from Ham ilton Communication to Convention on the publication of debates, 369. SCHEDULE Report of committee, No. 1, on, 804. Report of committee, No. 2, on, 804. Report of committee considered in committee of the whole, 814. Report of committee considderen in Convention, 817, 819, 843. Report of committee, No. 1 passed, 819. SMITH r, Mr. a Delegate from Wyandot Remarks on capital puni shm en t, 27, 30. Amendment remarks relative to p ublishing speeches of members, 678. Remarks on declining to vote on KIRKWOOD'S mo tion relative to ex2emption. on term and election of county officers, 641. of church property fram taxation, 52. relative to clerks of courts, 137. Petitions presented by, 183, 220. Remarks on demanding previous question, 256. Amendments to Report on executive department, 290. Remark s on Report on preamble, 327. Amendment and remarks on Report on pream ble, 338. Remarks on amendment to Report on judical de l partment, 364, 398, 673. in relation to licensing sale of spiritu - ous liquors, 436. STANBERY, Mr., a Delegate from Franklin Remarks on submission of laws to the people, 223. on legislative character of propositions introduced in the Convention, 229. relative to right of way, 234, to the right of legislative repeal, 260, 613, 614, 621. to Report of committee on ju risprudence, 319. Amendment to report on judicial department, 400, 679, 696, 697. Remarks on amendments to Report on banks and currency, 403, 405, 415, 417. on Report on public debt and public works, 425. on Report on preamble, &c., 488, 689, 827. Amendment and remarks on granting special privileges, 558. Remarks, on Report on legislative department, 011 MITCHELL'S question of privilege, Amendmonts arnd remarks thereon to Report on legislative department, 579. Remarks in relation to curative statutes, 596. Resolution relative to corporations other than banks, 844. INDEX. '803 89 INEX on amnount of permanent school fund, 16. On capital punishments 31. Petitions presented by, 34, 90, 159, 383. Remarks on the resolution inviting AMIN Bry to a seat within Bar of Convention Chamber. 61. on Finance and Taxation, 106. in favor of annual sessions, 156. relative to right of Legislative repeal, 166. to organization of Board of Se lectmen in each county in which legislature should vest local legislative power, 175. on mode of organizing House of Rep resentatives, 214. on the relations of the Judiciary to the Legislative Department, 217. on the submission of laws to a vote of the people, 224. on report on Public Debt and Public Works, 298. on manner of appointing Commission ers for revision of Practice and Pr ceedings of Courts of Record, 314. on Jurisprudence, 315, 672. on aineudment to report of select com mittee on Preamble and Bill of rights, 333, 467. on amendment to report of select com mitteeon Preamble and Bill ofRights, 337. on report of committee on Militia, 348. on election of Supreme Judges by the people, 355. Amendment and remarks to report of committee on Judicial Department, 398. Remarks on report of committee on future amend ments to Constitution, 430. on Temperance question-against legal izing sale of liquors, 443, 716. Amendment to report on Elective Franchise, 555. Remarks relative to giving public printing to low est bidder, 587. to provision in Constitution pro hibiting immigration of bl] ackl, etc., 600. to municipal corporations, 659. on amendments to report on Education, 700. Amendment and remarks on Finance and Taxa, tion, 734. Remarks on Apportionment, 761, 774, 783, 785. Amendment to report on Apportionment, and r marks thereon, 772,773. Remarks on Banks and Currency, 800. TEMPERANCE, for the prohibition of Laws author izing the sale of intoxicating Liquors Petitions presented for, 4, 5, 7, 26, 34, 44, 67, 90, 106, II9, 131, 140. 151, 159,169, 176, 183,192, 200, 212, 220,339, 348, 352, 361, 362, 369, 382, 283, 392, 402, 413, 427, 457, 458, 468, 469, 506, 523, 556, 576, 593, 614, 651, 684, 710, 726, 744, 753, 775. Petitions against the prohibition of the use of ar dent spirits, 200, 413. Petitions for the expulsion of any member of the General Assembly coming upon floor-of ei ther Htouse in a drunken condition,J 26. Report of Select Committee and resolution pro hibiting Legislature from licensing traffic in, 362. Remarks on Legislative repeal, 533. Amendments arid remarks on corporations other than Banking, 642. Resolution fixing honr of meeting, 559. Remarks on report on Legislative Department, 564. Amendment to report of committee on Legisla tive Department, 556. Resolution in relation to fixed salaries of mem bers o f General Assembly, 653. Amendment to repor t on Municipal corporations, 662. Remarks on report on Judicial Department, 684, 685. Am endment t o report on Finance, and remarks thereon, 734, 735 atd 754. Remarks on report of committee on Apportion ment, 769, 767. on Fin ance and Taxation, 792. Resolution amending report on Schedule, 819. SWAN, Mr., a Delegate from Franklin Amendgment relativ e to right of Repeal, 186, 187. Remarks 188. 481, 482, 548, 605, 506, 629. Amendment relative to organization of House of Representatives, 215. to submission of laws to the people, 223, 226. to the, taking of private pro perty for public use, 298. Petitions presented by, 232. Remarks on amendments to report on Judicial Department, 368, 684. to report on Public Debt and Public Works, 426. Amendmentto report on Legislative Department, 6~24. on subject of Legislative repeal, 618. and remarks to reports on corpora tions other than Banks, relative to taxation, 664. Remarks on amendments to report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 690. Report of standing committee on Judicial De partment, 823. SWIFT, Mr., a delegate from Summit Petitions presented by, 139, 232, 628. T T.AATION of churches, literary institutions and burying grounds, 41 to 44. Propositions of Messrs. GROESBECK, WORTIING TON, TAYLOR and HUMPHREYILLE, 53, 54. TAXATION of State and United States Bonds, 54, 62, 67, 76, 81, 83, 90,91, 124, 126. Mlr. HORTON'S motion to strike from section pro posing to tax State and United States Stocks, the words "State and," 56. Question taken in committee of the Whole on Mr. HORTON'% motion to exempt State Stocks frcm taxation, 105. Mr. MAsoN's amendment to section three of report,. 106, 1 i5. Teas and nays on proposition to exempt United States Bonds froml taxation, 128. Commrunica~tion of Auditor of State, 281. TAYLOR, Mr., a Delegate from Erie — Rerm'rks orn the Elective Franchise, 9, 635. on Mr. SAwYrR's mrotion to insert the word " White" in the article on.Edu cation, l1, 13. 894 INDEX. a t~~~~~~IDX 8 Report of Select Committee against traffic in in toxicating drinks, 694. Final passage of report against traffic in intoxi cating drinks, 694. Reconsideration of vote on final passage, 714. THOMPSON, Mr., a Delegate from Shelby Remarks on the right of Legislative repeal, 271. Amendment to report on Preamble, 328.P Petitions presented by, 392, 468. Remarks on the Temperance question, 439, 454. Amendment and remarks thereon to report on Education, 699. THOMPSON, Mr., a Delegate from Stark Motion to amend report on Elective Franchise, 9. Petition presented by, 90, 277, 593. Substitute for Mr. CURRY's amendment to section 6 of report on Public Debt and Public Works, 310. - Remarks on report of Committee of Temperance, 439. Remarks on Legislative Repeal, 617. TOWNSHEND, Mr., a Delegate from Lorain Motion to amend the report on the Elective Fran chise, 9. Remarks in repIy to Mr. SAWYeR, relative to the exclusion of coloted persons from Schools, 12, 19. Resolutions of thanks to officers of Mechanics Institute, 34. Petitions presented by, 200. Amendment and remarks on report of Committee on Militia, 349. Remarks on report on future amendments to Con stitution, 433,435. Speech on negro suffrage, 550, 555. VANCE, Mr., a Delegate from Butler President pro tem, 7, 10, 14, 20. Amendment to Mr. CASE'S resolution relative to taxation of U. S. Bonds, 124. Remarks on Judicial system, 132. I on chairman of Standing Committee oni Preamble and Bill of Rights, 141. on the right of Legislative repeal, 169, 193, 546, 609, 621. Amendment relative to right of Legislative re peal, 242, 253, 548. Communication to the President of Convention announcing his resignation, and the reason therefor, 322. Credentials of his re-election presented, 533. Amendment and remarks on repeal on Committee on Legislative Department, q72. Amendment to report on Legislative Department discouraging emigration of free black popula tion of other States to Ohio, 604. Amendment to report on Finance and Taxation,' 842. Remarks on Bank Taxation, &c., 665. W. WARREN, Mr., a Delegate from Delaware Petitions presented by, 361. WAY, Mr., a Delegate from Monroe-m Petitions presented by, 277. WILLIAMS, Mr., a Delegate from Warren- r Remarks on Mr. GREEN's resolution of thanks to President Medill, 854. WILSON, Mr., a Delegate from Wayne-Elected to fill vacancy caused by resignation of Mr. FIRa STONE, 3. e Appointed on Committeee on Finance a125 T.xa tion, 7. Petitions presented by, 140. WOODBURY, Mr., a Delegate from Ashtabula Rema rks on his motion to amend report on the Elective Franchise, 8, 9. Remarks on Finance and Taxation, 51, 727, 732. Amendment to report on Finance and Taxation, 124. Petitions presented by, 176. Amendment to report on Legisiative Department, 182. Amendment to report on Executive Department, 290, 293. Amendment to Preamble and Bill of Rights, 326. Remarks on amendment to report onI Judicial De partment, 388. Remarks on amendment to report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 467. Remarks on right of suffrage, 553. relative to State Superintendent of Com 3mon Schools and Assistants, 706 on reconsidering report on traffic in ar dent spirits, 711. on report of Committee on Apportion ment, 749. WORTHINGTON, Mr., a Delegate from RossIn place of Mr. CLAYtOO0L, resigned Credentials presented, 3. Appointed on Apportionment Committee, 7. Remarks on improvement of Convention Hall, 23. on Finance and Taxation, 40, 42, 123. Petitions presented by, 158, 277, 294. Amendment relative to rights of private property taken for public use, 239. Remarks on his amendment to report on Public Debt and Public Works, 311. Remarks on report of Committee on Executie Department, 332. Remarks on report of Committee on Militia, 351, 687. Remarks on point of order raised by Mr. Rxrm. LIN, 498. Remarks on report on Legislative Department, 575, 576. Remarks on negro suffrage, 639. on amendments to report on Corpora tions other than Banks, 643. Y. YEAS AND NAYS On fixing hour of meeting, 4, 215. On motion to adjourn, 7, 34, 136, 140, 158, 169, 174, 176, 191, 19, 215, 220, 253, 278, 290, 294, 309, 352, 401, 457, 460, 461, 554, 613, 628, 634, 693, 710, 774, 775, 834. On motion to recommit report of Standing Com mittee on Education, 18. On motion relative to exclusion of colored chil dren from common schools, 19. On motion to incorporate section 4 of minority report on Education in report of majority, 19. On proposition for establishment of Normal Schools, 20. On motion to l ay resolution relative to improve-, ment of Hall on the table, 25. On striking out all after word "resolved" in said resolution, 25. On agreeing to said resolution, 26. On motion to indefinitely postpone report of Se lect Committee on punishment, 34. On motion that names of absentees be not enter ed on journal, 41. On motion to go into Committee of the Whole, 91, 125. I I i INDEX. 895 _9 * _ J X. On Mr. GREEN''s motion to amend report on "Fi nance and Taxation," 124. Onl Mr. CASE's resolution relative to taxing U. S. Bonds, 128. On terms of office for Senators, 149. On motion to print memorial of Daniel Drake, 158. Communication from Mary-' land State Convention, 160. On biennial sessions, 164. During debate.on right of legislative repeal, 165, 166, 175,187, 191, 209, 210,242, 281, 286, 616, 618, 619, 632, 633, 634. On dispensing with all further proceedings un der calls of the Convention, 168, 187, 256,280, 322, 570, 666, 781, 820. Leave given to- record votes of call of yeas and nays, 131, 169. On striking out section 38 of report of Legisla tive Department, providing the legislature should vest local legislative power in certain county bonds, 175. During debate on right of way, and rights of pri vate property taken for public use, 181, 182, 229, 230, 234, 238, 239, 240. During debate relative to eligibilityto office, 183, 185, 215. On restriction of debate, 184; 317, 323, 324. During debate on subject of new counties, 210, 211. compensation of members of General Assembly, 211, 213, 214. organization of House of Rep resentatives, 2,14. passag e o f laws to take effec t upo n contingencies, 219, 226, 228. "retroactive" and "curative" laws, 241,591,592. on Execmtiven Departinent,8 8, 289, 290, 291, 293, 294. Public Debt and Public Works 295, 297, 299, 309, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 426, 427. ODuring d eba t e on adoption of report of Standing Cornittee on Ju r isprudenc e, 325, 3 26. Sustaining the demand for tle previous question, 233, 256, 286, 294, 346, 387, 453, 456, 475, 546, 559, 599, 023, 626, 650, 652, 666, 667, 775, 686, 6e8, 692, 694, 698, 714, 718, 720, 742, 743, 745, 782, 805, 814, 816, 820, 821,828, 829, 839, 840, 841,842, 850. D)uring motion to take recess, 281, 401. question of the adoption of Section 16, of report on Executive Department, providing for qualified Veto Power, 292. the order of business, 295, 317. motion to instruct committee on Execu tive Department to amend their report, 333. agreeing to amendments to report of com mnittee on Public Institutions as amend ed in committee of the Whole, 341. On amnendmnents to report of committee on Pub lic Institutions, 343, 344. taking up report of committee on Banks and Currency, 344. motion of Mr. HAWKINS to recommit the re p)ort on1 Banks and Currency to whole14ouse, 345. On motion of Mr. LARWILL to laycsame on table, 345. Mr. C HAMBERS t o postpone on table to Monday, 27th Ja-nuary, 346. Mr. HORTON'S am endment to str ike o ut t he words "to" and "s hall" in Section 6, of Mi litia r epo rt, 348. proposition to strike out certain words in r3 po rt of Co mmit tee on Mil itia, 350. reconsideration of vote by which the 1st See tion of report of Committee on Militia was stricken out, 352. motion to re pormi t to Standing Com. mittee on Militia, 352. motion to lay on ta ble the reso lutio n of Mr. ORTON for sine die a djo ur nment, 353. r epor t of an annual mendents of committee on Judicial Department, 355, 356, 357, 360, 363, 364, 368, 382, 386, 388, 391, 392, 398, 399, 400. pr oposi tion to print report of Ed itorial Con vention, 383. striking out anti hard in report of committee on Banks and Currency, 412. amendments to report of Banks and Currency, 413 4, 4154, 4 318, 422, 423, 424. motion to take up resolution in relation to re, cess 414. lay on ta ble report and amend ments to, on Banks and Currency, 414. refer communication of Ohio Edit,o rial Conventio n to Se lect Commit tee, 424. amendment s to report on future amendments to Constitution 434, 436, 446. motions to lay the subjec t under debat e onI the table, 453, 461, 507, 652, 694, 66 97. amendment to report of Select commnittee on Temperance, 4 57, 7293. commnitting to committee of Whole the report on Legislative Department, 457. recommitting report on Temnperance, 160. motion to take a Recess, 461. go into committee of Whole, 461, 559. discharge committee from further consideration of report on Legis lative Department, 461. resolution for sin e die adjournment, t61, 462. amendmen ts to report oi Preamble and Bill of Rights, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 476, 498, 548, 549, 550, 558, 559, 692, 693, 814, 815, 825, 829. reconsidering vote ordering the article on the Elective Franchise to be enrolled, 839. the passage of report on Ficnance and Taxa tioIn, 842. adoption of resolution of.~[r. SCOTT relative to election of certain State Officers, 845. resolution of Mr. LAWRENCE instruct;rig com mittee on revision to amend report on mis cellaneots sbjects, 850. resolution of Mr.- RAa CEy relative to striking out Section 5, of report on Corporations, 850. amendments to report on1 Corporations, 851. resolution allowing J ames Pollock, lamp light er, $1 50) per day, ~51. - ~~~mileage ~o Secretaries, Ser~ geasnt-at-Arm~s and door keepers of the Conven tion, 853. 896 INDEX. INDEX. 897 motion to reconsider report on Temperance question, 714. go into commilttee of the Wholeon Temperance question, 718. amendments to report on Finance and Taxa tion, 736, 742, 743, 744, 746, 747, 748, 755, 789, 793, 828, 829, 8S30, 831, 839, 842, 852, amendments to report on apportionment, 771, 780, 781, 782, 783, 786, 7~7. Mr. MaNNON's amendment to Judiciary report, 794. engrossing Mr. GREGG's amendment to report on miscellaneous subjects, 794. Resolution fixing per diem of messenger boys, 803. of Mr. PATTERSON securing to every man a title I o his home, 804. of Mr. IIENDERSON amending report on Preamble, 811. amendments to report on Schedule, 817, 818, 824. recommitting report on Schedule, 819, 848. motion of Mr. CASE relative to hard money, 819, 820. passage of report on the apportionment, 821, 822, 823. amendments to report on Education, 843. resolution of Mr. DORSEY relative to Banks, 824 Mr STANTON relative to appor tioning State into single dis tricts, b25. passage of report on miscellaneous subjects, 833.' amendments to report on miscellaneous sub jects, 833, 85'0. resolution of Mr. SAWYER relative to duties of Secretary in regard to unfinished journal, 834. reconsidering vote on Section 16, of Judiciary report, 836. striking out the words "an entire," in Section 13, of Judiciary report, 8ol6. amendments to report on Public Debt and Public Works. resolution of thanks to Hon. WM. MmDIILL, 854. resolution restricting debate, 524, 635, 750. amendments to report on Elective Franchise, 554, 555, 640. In relation to call of Convention, 565, 528, 694. (Oi amendment to report of committee on Legis lative Department, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582, 5t-9, 59C, 597, 504, 505, 652, 653, 663, 664, 819. resolution fixing hour of meeting, 593, 594. of Mr. LinDEY's relative to reception of petitions after a certain length of time, 614. Mr. RANNEY'S amendment relative to repeal, 620. resolution relative to holding night Sessions, 628. consideration of report and amendments on report on corporations other than Banks, 642, 643, 644, 657, 659, 661, 662, 666, 667, 668, 675, 676. consideration of report No. 3, on Militia, 651, 688. recommitting report on legislative department to standing committee, 652. resolution providing for fixed salaries of mem bers of General Assembly, 653. relative to formation of New Coun t i es, 653. auth,orizing employment of Assis tent Door-keeper, 654. motion to reconsider the vote on final passage of report on corporations other than Baniks, 6,6. consideration and amendments to Judicial Report, 6Gi, 683, 685, 686. final passage of report on Preamble and Bill of Rights, 693. report on retailing ardent spirits, 694. ,amendments to report of committee on Educa tiom, 7k4, 705, 7(07. final pas-a,e of re port of committee on Educa tioln, 711. i; LD. a *, S INDEX. 897