/ <: . l^'^ TESTIMONY OF LUDWIG C. A. K. MARTENS TAKEN BEFORE THE JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE TATE OF NEW YORK INVESTIGATING ITIOUS ACTIVITIES CLAPTON R. Ll'SK, CHMH ^N TESTIMONY OF LUDWIG G. A. K. MARTENS MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES (CLAYTON R. LUSK, Chairman.) City Hall, City of New York, Saturday, Novemher 15, 1019. Present : Assemblyman Peter P. McElligott, Assemblyman William W. Pellet, Assemblyman Edmund B. Jenks. Appearances: Hon. Frederick R. Rich, Special Deputy Attorney-General, Hon. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General, Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel. Acting Chairman, Assemblyman Peter P. McElligott. The Committee was called to order at 11:25 a. m. The Chairman. — The Committee will come to order. In the absence of Senator Lusk, Chairman, I have been asked to preside at this meeting. The Committee issued a subpoena which was served upon Ludwig C. A. K. Martens, who represents himself to be the repre- sentative to the T'^nited States of America of the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic. The subpoena directed the attendance of Mr. Martens to-day at this meeting and also required him to bring with him certain documents, letters and other papers for the inspection of this Committee in connection, with our investiga- tion. Mr. Martens sent a letter to this Committee and it will 13] be read. It is on the stationery of the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic. Before proceeding with the reply of Mr. Martens, I think it well to show that a subpoena was served upon Mr. Martens, and his reply to the subpoena. Mr. Berger. — Mr. Chairman, I call Mr. Wexler. IsiDOR Wexler, having been duly sworn, testified as follows : By Mr. Berger: Q. Will you give us your full name ? A. Isidor Wexler. Q. And you are a corporal in the State Constabulary of the State of New York ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you are assigned to the Legislative Committee investi- gating seditious activities in the State of New York ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you on the 14th day of November, 1919, at 110 West 40th street, serve a subpoena upon Ludwig C. A. K. Martens ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Of which is a copy (handing paper to witness) ? A. Yes, sir. I served it at 11:25 a. m. Q. And did you at the same time tender, give and leave with Martens said subpcena and two dollars and a half in cash ? A. Yes, sir; it was pinned right on the subpoena. Q, Where was this subpoena served? A. At 110 West 40th street, room 303. Q. That is in this borough and city i A. Yes, this borough and city. Q. How did you know that the person you served with that subpoena was the Ludwig C. A. K. Martens mentioned therein? A. I have seen Martens in Madison Square Garden at one of the meetings there. Q. That was on June 20, 1919? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you heard him speak there ? A, Yes, sir ; he was intro- duced as Mr. Martens, Ambassador from the Soviet Government in Russia. Q. And the person you served was the same person you saw there as Martens, Ambassador from the Soviet Russian Govern- ment ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Berger. — I will read the .-ubpoeiia into the record: " THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK "To Ludwig C. A. K. Martens, 110 West 40t,h street, 'New York City: "Greeting: We command you, That all business and excuses being laid aside you be and appear in your own proper person before the Committee of the Legislature of the State of New York, appointed pursuant to the resolution duly passed on the 26th day of March, 1919, at the Alder- manic Chamber, in the City Hall, Borough of Manhattan, City of New York, on the 5th day of November, 1919, at 10 :30 o'clock in the forenoon of that day, to testify and give evidence in a certain investigation now pending of seditious activities within the State of New York, and bring with you the following books, papers and other documents now in your possession and control, which the Committee deems relevant and material to the investigation, the check books, bank books, books of account, both of yourself, and of the Soviet Bureau, located at 110 West 40th Street and elsewhere, and also all documents, letters and other papers received by you and your Bureau from Soviet Russia, as well as copies of letters, documents and other papers sent by you and your Bureau to Soviet Russia, all between January 1st, 1919 and this date, also copies and records of all iso-called passports and cre- dentials issued by you to the agents of yourself and your Bureau, and for a failure to attend you will be deemed liable to the ])enalties prescribed by law and hereof fail not at your peril. Witness, Hon. Clayton R. Lusk, Chairman of our said Committee, at New York City, this 14th day of November in the year of our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and nineteen. (Signed) Clayton R. Lusk, Chairnuin. (Signed) CliaiUs I). Newton, Attorney-General, Counsel. A true copy." The Chairman. — Mr. Berger, does this require him to be here at a certain hour? 6 Mr. Berger. — It requires him to be here in his own proper person at 10:30 o'clock in the forenoon of today and requires him in addition to bring his books and pa])crs. It is a personal subpcrna and subpoena duces tecum. The Chairman, — Was that communication of which you spoke received bv the Committee today? Mr. Berger. — Yes, received today. Akchibalt) E. Stevenson^ having been duly sworn, testified as follows: By Mr. Berger: Q. Mr. Stevenson, you are au attorney at law? A. I am. Q. And Associate Counsel to the Joint Legislative Committee Investigating Seditious Activities, are you not ? A. I am. 'Q. Do vou know cf your own knowledge whether or not Senator Clayton R, Lusk, Chairman of this Committee, signed a subpoena of which this iis copy ^ (Showing witness paper.) A. He did, in my presence. Q. In your presence ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And did you pursuant to the instructions given you by Senator Lusk, Chairman of this Committee, cause that subpcena to be served upon the person therein named, Ludwig C. A. K. Martens ? A. I did. I received instructiouis from Senator Lusk at the Murray Hill Hotel yesterday morning at 9:15, to take this subpoena and cause it to be served upon the said Ludwig C. A. K. Martens, wherever he was to be found. Q. And it was duly served as you have heard in the testimony this morning to the said Martens ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Berger. — Mr. Chairman, a letter was received this morn- ing purporting to come from L. Mai'tens, which, with permission, I will read into the record, Tjiis letter is on the letterhead of the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic, Bureau of the Representative in the LnitO'] States of America. Address: World's Tower Building, 110 West Fortieth street, N'ew York, November 15, 1910. No. T)-10-9. '* IFonorable Ct-aytox R, Lusk, Chairman, Commit fee of the Legidature of Neiv York, New Yorh City. " Sir. — I respectfully decline to comply with that ])art of the subpoena served by your order upon me which requires me to produce ' all (lociiuicnts, letters, and other papers/ re- ceived by me and my liureau ' from Soviet Russia, as well as copies of letters, documents and other papers ' sent by me and my bureau ' to Soviet Russia ' also copies and records of all so-called passports and credentials issued ' by me to ' the agents ' of myself and my Bureau.' '' 1. I take the position that your request for the produc- tion of copies of my correspondence with ^ Soviet Russia ' which is evidently intended to designate the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic, which I have the honor to repre- sent in the United States, is clearly in excess of the jurisdic- tion of your Committee and without warrant in law. Under the rules of international law the communications between my government and myself are privileged and not subject to the examination by the government of any other nation or State. " 2. If any inquiiT into my relations and correspondence with Soviet Russia were warranted by law, the State Depart- ment of the United States Government would be the sole authority vested with jurisdiction in the matter. " 3. Your Committee was created for a definite and limited purpose, which cannot under any circumstances be held to include matters of an international character. " For the reasons stated I hereby decline to comply with the above-quoted portions of your subpoena. " Respectfully, (Signed) " L. MARTEKS, " Representative in the United States of America of the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic." Mr, Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, T think it might be wise to have the corridors of the ])uilding searched. The Chairman. — I was about to make the request that the name of Mr. Martens be called to see whether he is present. Is Mr. Martens present ? Mr. Berger. — Mr. Wexler, will you call the naiuaie of Mr- Martens in the Alderraanic Chamber, across the hall, and in all the corridors. Call the name Ludwig C. A. K. Martens out laud. Mr. Wexler. — Yes, sir. 8 Mr. Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, I think it is well to have noted on the record, although Mr. Martens has presented his cre- dentials to the State Department at Washington, the Kussian Socialist Federal Soviet Eepuhlic has up to this time not heen recognized as a government, and it has been publicly stated by the officials of the State Departniient that Mr. Martens had no standing in this country as an envoy of the government ; and it is, therefore, not clothed with any of the privileges or immunities of a foreign representative. The Chairman. — Yes, 1 think it is well to note that. I under- stood from Mr. Martens, when he appeared before this Committee some months ago that he had sent his credentials to Washington to the Department of State, and that the only notice he received in connection with the receipt of his credentials at W^ashington was a newspaper despatch which he read the next day that his papers had been received; but he had never received any official recognition either of the receipt of his communication or any further action. (i\lr. Wexler stepped out from the room, and after a short absence returned.) Mr. Wexler.- — i^o, sir ; he is not in. Mr. Berger. — Have you called his name out loud ? Mr. Wexler. — Yes, sir ; three or four times. The Chairman. — The Committee will note it is now twenty-two minutes to twelve, on November 15, 1919, and the witness has failed to appear. Mr. Berger. — May I ask what the Committee desires done in reference to this witness who has willfully, deliberately and with- out reasonable cause failed to obey the subpoena duly issued under the hand and seal of the Chairman of this Committee ? The Chairman. — The Committee is empowered with certain rights in connection with its work; rights under the legislative law and rights under the penal law of the State of New York. The witness can be punished as for a contempt ; and it is really necessary that the Committee should take some action in this regard, because it is a defiance of the powers of the Committee, and also of the powers of the State of New York through its Legis- 9 lature. Tho State of New York is engaged in a very serious effort just now to i^reserve the government of the State of N^ew York, as well as the government of the United States of America, and the inquiry will be helpful to protect the government. The witness has refused to ])roduce these documents, a]id 1;( sides that, he has refused to attend personally. He has given something in the nature of a statement for his failure to produce these records, ]iui 1 do vhiid<, and I respectfully submit to the members of the Committee, that his excuse is not sufficient to satisfy the mend)ers of this Committee. If he were recognized I»y the noveninienr of the United States as an ambassador of this so-called Russian lJei)ublic, he would have certain rights and cer- tain immunities and he coidd not be compelled to testify or pro- duce his records ; but h(> has no standing of this kind, and he has never been recognized by the government. It is really a subter- fuge, as far as we are concerned, on his ])art, to offer an explana- tion of that kind. I thiidv the Committee should take such action as the law authorizes for a contcMupt of the action of this Com- mittee, and the Chair, with the agreement of this Committee, will authorize counsel for the Committee to proceed 'in accordance therewith. Mr. Berger. — We will, sir. ^Ir. Stevenson. — Do you think it would be wise to adopt a resolution directing counsel to prepare such papers as might be necessary ? Mr. Berger. — I think the Chairman's statement, agreed in by the other members of the Committee, is sufficient. Assemblyman Pellet. — I make the motion that counsel l)e directed to take such proceedings as will Ix^ necessary. Assemblyman Jenks.— I second the motion. (The motion was put to the Connuittee by the Chairman and carried. ) The Chainnan. — Tlie Chair directs counsel to proceed in accordance with the action. Is there an\i:hing else for the Committee to-day ? Mr. Stevenson. — I think not. 10 The Chairman. — I wished to state further that the Coniraittee may take both civil ami criminal action in this regard, as pro- vided hj law. Mr. Berger. — In view of the fact that the contempt is a vio- lation of both the Code of Civil Procedure, and the Code of Crim- inal Procedure. The Chairman. — We will now adjourn to meet on Monday afternoon at 2 o'clock. At 11 :45 A. M. the Committee took a recess to Monday, Novem- ber 17, 1919, at 2 :00 p. m. 11 MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES Aldermanic Chamber, City Hall, Xew YoifK, Saturday, Nov. 15, 1919, 2.:)0 p. m. Before : Assemblyman Peter P. MeElligott, Acting Chairman; Assembl^Tnan Pellet, Assembhinan Jenks. Appearances: Samuel A. Berger, Esq., Deputy Attorney-General, Associate Counsel. Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq. In attendance: Ludvvig C. A. K. Martens. Acting Chairman MeElligott. — The Committee met this morn- ing at 10:30 a. m. A subpoena had been issued for the appear- ance of Mr. Martens, requiring him to appear, and calling for the j)roduction of certain records by him. ^Ir. ^Martens failed to appear. Thereupon an application was made to the Supreme Court for an attachment. The application was granted, and the sheriff served the attachment, which was a bail attachment in one thousand dollars. Mr. Martens is now present lx?fore the Committee, having been brought there by Deputy Sheriff Murray of the county of New York. The Com- mittee took a recess until 2 o'clock on ^fonday. If Mr. Martens is willing to promise the Committee that he will attend before the Committee at that time, he can offer bail in the sum of one thousand dollars. ^Ir. Martens came forward and stated that he would be present on ^fonday at 2 o'clock, and a recess was accordingly fixed until that time. 12 The Acting- Chairman.— :Mr. Martens, jou are required to be here on Monday next at 2 o'clock, to produce with you the books, papers, documents, records, and so forth, called for by the sub-- poena. Will you be here at that time with those papers ? Mr. Martens. — Yes, I will. Whereupon, at 3:15 o'clock p. m. the Committee took a recess to Monday, :N^ovember 17, 1919, at 2 p. m. 13 MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES City Hall, Neav York, Monday, November 17, 1919, 2 p. m. Present : Assemblyman McEUigott, Chairman; Assemblyman Pellet, Assemblyman Burr. Appearances: Mr. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General ; Mr. Archibald E. Stevenson, Associate Counsel to the Committee ; Mr. Frederick E. Rich. The Chairman. — The meeting will come to order. Mr. Berger. — Mr. Martens. LuDwiG C. A. K. Martens, called as a witness, being first duly sworn, testified as follows: Examined by Mr. Berger : Q. What is your full name? A. Ludwig Christian Alexander K. Martens. Q. Whore do yon live. jMr. Martens? A. 572 Ocean avenue, Brooklyn. Q. And what is your oftice address, :\Ir Martens^ \ 110 West 40th Street. ^>. Aii.l your occii|.;,ti..n f A. I am ropresonrin- tho Russian Socialist Soviet Bppul)Ii('. Q. Wlioro were you born ? A. In niichmnt, Russia. Q. Wbat is your father's nrimo. A. Karl ^FartfMis. Q. Where was ho boi-n ? A. In Cormauy. Q. Wbrn (lid yon leave Baehniut. Russia? A. When I loft Russia? 14 Q. Yes ; Baehmut, Russia. A. 1 was two years old. Q. Where did you go from there? A. To Kursk. Q. Kursk, Eussia? A. Yes, sir. Q. And how old were you when you left Kursk, Russia '( A. Seventeen years old. Q. What was your occupation at that time? A. I just finished gymnasium at that time. Q. What is your mother's name? A. Christiana. Q. Where was she horn ? A. In Lubek, Grermany. Q. Were you in Petrograd at one time? A. Yes, sir. Q. You lived there for a number of years ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Until when ? A. Until 1896. Q. And how long were you in Petrograd ? A. Five years. Q. Did you receive any technical instruction of any kind while in Petrograd ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What kind? A. Technological Institute. Q. And what degree did you receive in that institute? A. Engi- neer. Q. What stud?nt organizations were yoii identified with while you were studying in Petrograd ? A. As a stndent I belonged to an organization for studying Marxian theories. Q. Did you devote considerable time to a study of the Marxian theories while you were there as a student ? A. Yes, sir, Q. Will you give us the name of the original organizations you were connected with in Russia at that time? A. I was connected with the Union for Liberation of Russian Working Class. Q. Any others ? A. Xo others, no. Q. What action did the authorities take towards you with rega.rd to your connection with this organization or any other organization? A. I was airested in 1806 by the Russian author- ities. Q. What was the out- '/mi ( of that arrest? A. I was deported from Russia. Q. To where? A. To Germany. Q. To what part of Germany ? A. Berlin. Q. Did you meet iSTicolai Lenine, who is now Premier of Russia, at that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your connection with him ? A. We belonged to the same organization. Q. Was your association with him of an intimate character? A. More or less. Q. Quite intimate? A. Yes, I knew him. 15 Q. ^\'lult yeiir was that vou were deported to Germany '? A. ]Si)() — IK), 1 beg- pardon. ISiHi I was arrested; in 1899 1 was (l('j)oiie(l to Gerniany. Q. W(>re yo.u contiued in prison as a result of your activities th(M(> for any time (' A. Yes, sir. Q. For how long a times A. Throe years. Q. V\'hat happened at the end of those three years ( A. They dcpcu'ted 1110 to lirermany. (^. riiat was the time you were deported i? A. Yes, sir. Q. What year was that in ? A. 1899. Q. Have you been to Russia since then ? A. Yes, sir. Q. \Mien were you there? A. During the first revolutioni, in 1005 and '06. Q. On what particular charge, Avhat specific charge wea.'e you confined in prison for three yeai's ? A. The specific charge was — Q. What was the charge or indictment or information? A. Propaganda directed against the .Czar's government. Q. Wasn't it in connection with fomenting strikes ? A. No, not exactly; it was during the coronation of Czar Xieholas the Secoaid, we made political propaganda amongst working people in l\ussia, and there was a big strike at the same time so we took l);nt in the strike agitation too. Q. What did Nicolai Lenine have to do with fomenting those strikes? A. Nicolai Lenine was arrested, Q. What disposition was made of him ? A. Sent to Siberia. Q. How long did he stay in Siberia? A. I think for about five years. By Mr. Berger: Q. Who succeeded Lenine in the leadership of the jjarticular iirouj) of which he was the head after his arrest? A. Well, the movement was not concentrated at that time. So, that practically every town had its organization. There was no permanent leader at the time. Q. Isn't it a fact that you were one of the leadeis that suc- ceeded Lenine in your ])articular locality? A, 'Ko. Q. It is not ? A. No. Q. AVhat town in Germany did you entei- after your deporta- tion from Russia succeeding your release? A. Berlin. Q. I think you mentioned the year before, but let us have it again, please. A. 1899. 16 Q. What did you do when your entered Germany, Berlin? A, I was made a soldier. Q. A soldier in the German army? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you serve in the German army? A. Two years. Q. In what capacity ? A. A common soldier. Q. When you entered Germany, were you apprehended by the German military authorities ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What happened immediately thereafter ? A. I had to enter the German army. Q. On what authority did the German military authorities compel you. to serve in the German army? A. On the theory that I am a German ; because my father was a German citizen. Q. How old were you at that time ? A. I was about 26. Q. W^hat branch of the service did you serve in ? A. The engi- neers. Q. Were you ever subject to court-martial in the Geraian arrny? A. What is that? Q. Were you ever subject to court-martial in the German army? A. JN'o, sir; I was not. Q. When did you leave the German military service? A. 1901. Q. Have you at this time either about you. or elsewhere avail- able any of your military papers? A. At this time? Q. Yes. A. No, sir. Q. You have not ? A. jSFo, sir ; I have not. Q. What became of them ? A. I lost them somewhere, Q. Where were you stationed in Germany? A. In Berlin. Q. In Berlin ? A. Yes, sir. :Q. Now, when you received your discharge from the German army, what did you do ? A. I entered the Polytechnic Institute in Charlottenberg, Germany. Q. The Polytechnic Institute in Charlottenberg? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you there ? A. I think over one year. Q. Were you engaged in any revolutionary activity in Ger- many ? A. Yes, I was. Q. Will you tell us fully and in detail concerning this matter ? A. I was engaged in the revolutionary activities as far as it con- cerned Eussia. The German movement did not interest me. I was always in communication with Eussian revolutionary organi- zations. ir Q. Who co-operated with you in these aetivities directed towards Russia? A. Russian organizations which were in l')erliii and some other parts of Germany. Q. And you were in constant connaunication with revohi- tionaries in Russia while you were in Germany? A. Yes, I was. Q. And could you send pro])aij;anda from Germany into Rus- sia? A. Yes. Q. Coverino- a period of how many years? A. Five years. Q. And who prepared this pro])ac:anda ? A. It was |)re|)ared partly in Switzerland and partly in France. Q. But you, yourself, knew at all times the content-^ of the various documents and papers that you sent from Gernnniy into Russia, and you knew it was revolutionary propaganda ? A. Yes, sir. Q. After you left Charlottenlierg, where did you go, Mr. ]\Iar- tens ? A. I Avent to Hamburg. Q. In what year was that? A. In 1903. I stayed in Ham- burg up until 1905. Q. Did you still continue your revolntiouary activities in Ham- burg? A. Yes, sir. Q. And did you still continue sending ))ropaganda from Ham- burg into Russia ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where was Lenine at that time i A. In Brooklyn. Q. Were you in communication with him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you at that time in contact and connnunication witli Drownstein, now known as Leon Trotzky ? A. ^"es. I was. Q. Where was Trotzky at lhat time? A. He was in P.erlin several times, and mostly in Switzerland. Q. What date w^ould you fix for that, Mr. .Martens^ A. I think the first time I met Trotzky was 1901 in B(>rliii. Q. 1901? A. 1901. Q. Where did you meet him thereaftei'^ A. 190;] iiiul 190."). Q. Where, Mr. Martens? A. Iii Germany; in Hcrlin. mostly. Q. Did you ever meet Tj-otzky, alias Brownstein. in London ^ A. ^'es, sir. Q. What year was that? A. In London — 1 nevei' met him — excuse me, but I met him in Xew York. Q. Where did you meet him in Xew York? A. In 1917. Q. 1917? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was his occupation in New York at that time? A. He was editing the Russian pajier called Xovy ]\[ir. 18 Q. Were you connected with that paper I A. Yes, sir. Q. In what capacity ? A. I was on the editorial board of this paper. Q. And this paper is still being published in New York City at this time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know a man named Bucharin ? A. Y^'es, sir. Q. Was he on the editorial staff of Novy Mir? A. Yes, sir. Q. What position does Bucharin at this time hold in the Fed- erated Soviet Republic which you represent here? A. lie is an editor of a newspaper called Pravda. Q. Are you familiar with the publication published in this city called Class Stniggle ? A. More or less ; yes, sir. Q. You know it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is a publication gotten out in Brooklyn? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recall an issue in May of this year which contained an article by Bucharin? A. I do not recall the article, but prob- ably it was published. Q. Do you recall an article in that publication called Class Struggle entitled '^ The Church in the Soviet State," by Bucharin; do you recall that ? A. Yes, I recall it. Q. And the man that wrote that article is the Mr. Bucharin who holds this official position in Russia, and who is on the edi- torial staff of jSTovy Mir in this city? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you familiar with the publication called ''The Revolu- tionary Age " ? A. Very little. Q. You know there is such a publication? A. Yes, I know there is such a publication, Q. Did you see the issue of July 19, 1919, containing an article by the same Bucharin? A. I do not remember seeing it. Q. What part did you take in the Russian revolution in 1905? A. We organized the Russian workingmen. Q. What particular part did you personally take.in that revolu- tion? A. As an organizer. Q. As one of the organizers ? A. As one of the organizers. Q. How long did your activities as an organizer continue? A. 1905 and 1906. Q. And how did you get revolutionary propaganda from Ger- many to Russia? A, Oh, we had many ways to get it in. Q. Will you describe the various ways through which you succeeded in getting this propaganda from Gennany into Russia ? A. We smuggled it in. 19 Q. Do you recall the uaiues oi any persous engaged in that ])aiii('ular activity? A. No, 1 don't recall; so many. Q. Are any of thtnn here in this country at the present time? A. iSTot that I know of. Q. Did you become involved with the Clerman authorities as result of your activities in that direction? A. No. Q. Not that you kiioAv off A. No. Q. Were you under oliservation at that time of the German authorities, as far as you know? A. Not to my knowledge, but I suspected that I was. Q. As a matter of fact, you were not interfered with by the German authorities ? A. I beg your pardon. Q. I say, as a matter of fact you were not interfered with by t he German authorities ? A. No, I was not. Q. When were you last in Switzerland, Mr. Martens? A. 190(5, 1 was there. Q. And when were you there for the first time? A. Oh, for a short stay in 1903 and in 190(5 1 was there for a couple of months. Q. What was your particular purpose, if 1 may ask, in going to Switzerland in 19031 A. To see friends. Q. Was Xicolai Loniue our of them ( A. Yes, he was one of them. Q. And what was your j)nr])ose i)i seeing Lenine at that time in Switzerland ? A. To discuss the situation. Q. Which situation ? A. The Russian revolutionary situation. Q. And as sl result of your discussion with Lenine, what did you do? A. Well, I continued to do my usual business. Q. Just what? A. I can not quite follow your question, Mr. Berger. Q. Well, you say you continued to do your usual business, now I ask you what that was. A. I had to earn ray living. Q. Well, we all like to do that and we all do that, but in what particular way did you earn your living? A. I was an engineer connected with a large German finn in Hamburg. Q. And did you go to see Lenine in connection with your being an engineer for a large firm in Hamburg ? A. Certainly not. Q. Well then, as a result of your seeing Lenine in Switzer- land at that time, will you tell us specifically what you did and where you did it? A. The question is too broad and general for me to answer, Mr. Berger. Q. Well, I will try to separate it. You saw Lenine in 1903 in Switzerland? A. Yes. 20 Q. You went there for a specific purpose ? A. Yes. Q. What was that specific purpose? A. To discuss the situa- tion in the Russian tSocial Democratic party. They had split up into Mensheviks and Bolsheviks and there were a thousand and one questions to discuss. Q. Which particular group of that party were you allied with 'i A. The Bolsheviki. Q. And you thereafter did something as a result of your inter- view with Lenine, didn't you ? A. Not specifically, unless I cor- responded — Q. Well, what did you do in general ? A. Again, I was in- terested in the Russian movement, and I was always connected with it. Q. You were a member of the Central Revolutionary Com- mittee at that time ? A. No, I was not. Q. You were subsequent to that time? A. Yes. Q. In what year ? A. Excuse me. I was never in the Central Committee, but I was closely connected. Q. You were one of the prime movers ? A. No, I would not call it so. Q. Well, how deep was your interest in the movement ? A. How deep ? Well, gentlemen, the Russian revolution was my life, I can tell you. Q. Now, you went to Switzerland in 1905 again ? A. In 190G. Q. And what was your purpose in going to Switzerland in 1906 ? A. Well, I wanted to take a rest, and I stayed about a couple of months. Q. Did you see Lenine at that time ? A. No, not at that time. I saw Plekhanov. Q. Who was Plekhanov? A. A leader of the Mensheviks. Q. Would you say that the propaganda you were engaged in during the years you have mentioned was of a provocative kind ? A. What do you call a provocative kind ? Q. Well, that word has a pretty well accepted meaning. A. No. Q. Well, of a kind to stir up strife, discontent and possible bloodshed ? A. Well, my propaganda was — now, gentlemen, the Russian revolution is not a thing of the past couple of years, the revolution dates back 50 years, and many of the best Russian men were in it and ended their lives in Siberia, so the revolu- tionary propaganda of ours would be of no provocative character, because the Czar's government provoked the revolution and we had only to defend ourselves and our liberty as a people. 21 Q. Did your propagiinda attack the ])ourgeoisic as well as the aristocracy i A. We were interested in propaganda among the working class. Q. Will you answer the question as 1 have put it t A. Oh, yes. Q. And your })ropaganda has consistently from the time that you were first engaged in it until the very present time been directed against the bourgeoisie, as well as the aristocracy? A. It was a class conscious propaganda. Q. And with which particular class exclusively did you repre- sent and ally yourself? A. The working class and the peasants. Q. And that was naturally directed also against the bourgeoisie, the petty shopkeeper and tradesnum ? A. iS^o, I should not say so, the capitalist class. Q. Well, just what do you mean by the capitalist class ? A. The capitalist class is the class which is living on the producing labor of other people. The Chairman. — How far down do you go in your classifica- tion of capitalists? Where would you stop and where would you begin ? The Witness. — Well, that is rather a metaphysical question, Mr. Chairman, I could not nud-ce exactly a definition of where the capitalist starts and the workiugman finishes? The Chairman. — According to your conception who would be a capitalist ? The Witness. — W>11, here in this country it would be J. P. Morgan, he would be a (•a()italist ; some profiteer would be a capitalist. The Chairman. — Well, would you term a man who owned real estate a capitalist, who got an income from real estate? The Witness. — Oh, well, in some occasions, yes. The Chairman. — Suppose a man owned his own house, lived in the house himself, or on the ]>remises, and had a tenant? The Witness. — It does not make him a capitalist. The Chairman. — Well now, who would you call a capitalist ? The Witness. — A man who is living on the producing labor not his own. 22 Tho Chairman. — Well, liow nre you going to pick out that man ? How are you going to tell ? The Witness. — Well, a man who has a thousand men working for him and is employing them and living on the labor of those men, he is a capitalist. By Mr. Berger : Q. Suppose he has ten men employed ? A. The same thing. Q. Suppose he has two men in his employ, would he be a capitalist ? A. Not at all. Q. Well, do you draw the line at ten? A. I draw no line at all. Sometimes he might have one hundred workingmen employed and still not be a capitalist. The Chairman. — Suppose you take a horseshoer who has one or two men working for him in a shop, would you call him a capitalist ? The Witness. — Probably I would. The Chairman. — So that your system would class all as capitalists from the person who has two or three men in his employ upward ? Is that your conception ? The Witness. — No, Mr. Chairman. When do you call a man a bald man ? How many hairs does he have to have on his head to be called a bald man ? By Mr. Berger : Q. After you left Switzerland the second time, where did you go ? A. I went to England. Q. What particular city in England ? A. London. Q. When was that ? A. 1906. Q. Did you have a passport ? A. No, I had no particular pass- port. Q. When you say you had no " particular passport," what do you mean — did you have any passport ? A. No, I want to say according to the laws of England no passports were required. Q. Where did you go from England ? A. I stayed in England until 1916. Q. And where did you go from there ? A. To New York. Q. To New York ? A. Yes, sir. Q. DidJii't you go back to Germany ? A. No, I did not. Q. Had you been in New York before that? A. Yes, I was. Q. When? A. For a short period in 1906, I think. It was the time before I went to England. Q. During what years were you in England ? A. From 1900 — until 1906." Q. Now you were there following the outbreak of the great war? A. Yes, sir. Q. And how did you register in England; as a subject or citizen of what nation ? A. Of Germany. Q. And you were truthful in so registering, weren't you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you were as a matter of fact in 1916 a German sub- ject, weren't you ? A. Technically, yes, I was. Q. Were you or weren't you ? A. Yes, I was. Q'. You then came to this country ? A. Yes. Q. In what month in 1916? A. I think it was January, 1916. Q. In January of 1916? A. Yes. Q. And did you not execute and sign a customs declaration? A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. When you entered this country? A. Yes. Q. In January, 1916? A. Yes. ' Q. What citizenship did you claim at that time ? A. German citizenship — I was forced to claim it. Q. What do you mean, you were forced to claim German citi- zenship ? Who in this country forced you to claim that ? A. Nobody forced me, but I came with papers that forced me to say I was a German citizen technically. Q. Were those papers genuine or did they set forth the fact? A. Certainly, I had to come with permission of the British gov- ernment to the United States. Q. Then as a matter of fact you were not forced in this country to claim German citizenship? A. No, I could not claim that if my papers said that. Q. Were your papers correct or incorrect ? A. Absolutely incorrect, — and permit me to explain. Q. You made the statement when you came to this country that you claimed Gcrmim citizenship? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, you tell us you arrived with valid, truthful papers which set foi-th the fact that you were of German citizenship? A. Permit me to explain. 24 Q. Explain it. A. When I was registering in England I claimed to he a Russian citizen. Q. Didn't you tell us a minute ago you claimed to be a German citizen ? A. I didn't claim it, I claimed to be a Russian citizen, but the British authorities registered me as a German citizen because I could not produce sufficient papers. That is the reason I was so registered in England and that is the reason I received certain papers to America, where I had to claim to be a German citizen. Q. What was the name of the person in England to whom you claimed to be a German citizen and not a Russian citizen ? A. With all the persons which which I had to deal. Q. At all events, the British authorities were not satisfied with your claims ? A. They were not satisfied with my papers but were satisfied with my claims. Q. Didn't you have a German military passport? A. I didn't have any. Q. Why didn't they put you down as a citizen of Brazil ? A. Because they asked where my father came from and I told them from Germany. Q. And you told them you had served in the German army? A. Yes, I told them. Q. And the authorities felt satisfied you should be classed as a German citizen ? A. 'No, the authorities felt satisfied to put down a Russian, but only technically a German citizen. Q. Then when you came to this country you continued setting forth the fact that you were a German citizen, didn't you ? A. I never had occasion to claim it. Q. What statement did you make on your custom house declara- tion when you entered this country? A. The usual declaration. Q. That you were a citizen of what country ? A. Germany. Q. Did you register as an alien enemy when you entered this country ? A. No, sir. Q. Or at any time when you were in this country ? A. ISTo, sir. Q. At any time while this country was at war with Germany ? A. ISTo, sir. Q. In spite of the fact you entered as a German citizen? A. In spite of the fact that I entered as a German citizen. Q. What citizenship do you now claim? A. Russian citizen- ship. <-< 25 Q. How did you acquire Russian citizenship? A. I applied for Russian citizenship papers since the outbreak of the Russian revohition. Q. When? A. In March, 1917. Q. You have not left this country since you last came here? A. Xo, I did not leave. Q. When did you receive notice of your having become a Rus- sian citizen, Mr. Mai-tens? A. I think May, 1917, or maybe -lune, 1917. Q. What sort of notice did you get? A. That my request is granted and I was made ofScially a Russian citizen. Q. Was that an official notice? A. jSTo, frojn my friends. Q. It came from your aunt or your sister ? A. My sister. Q. N'ow, what prerequisite does the Russian Soviet government require to the attainment of citizenship on the part of a person who is not in Russia at the time the claim is made ? A. I could not tell you, gentlemen, what was required, because I am not versed in those matters. The only thing I could tell you is when I was a boy of about seventeen years I applied for Russian citizen papers from tlie Russian government and General von Wahl refused to grant me citizenship papers because he wanted me first to serve in the German army and then to become a Russian citizen, so I was refused in 1917 on account of not having served in the German army. Second, my request was, as I told you, after the outbreak of the Russian revolution, and I really don't know what kind of laws, T don't suppose any specific laws were in existence, — anyhow, I don't know. Q. Is there anything to prevent any resident of this country at this time from acquiring Russian citizenship in the same way that you acquired it ? A. Nothing, only that he be an honest man. Q. So that any person living in the United States who is ad- mittedly an honest man can become a citizen of Soviet Russia by simply proving that he is an honest man? A. Yes, sir. Q. There is no requirement that it be made public in tliis country, is there ? A. I beg pardon. Q. There is no requirement imposed by the Bolshevist govern- ment that that person make that fact known to this country ? A. l\o. Q. Have you any idea how many individuals in the United States at the present time have acquired citizenship in the Soviet Republic in a similar manner? A. Nobody. 26 Q. There is nothing to prevent their doing that ? A. Th<>re is nothing to prevent their doing that. Assemblyman McElligott. — Would they have to consult you as authority for that application to be made ? The Witness. — No, Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to do with the making of citizens in Russia. It is not my business. They have to apply to the central authorities. Mr. Berger. — I feel it necessary to emphasize at this point that this plan of changing citizenship which is called to our attention by the witness at this time, and which was admitted by him, if it be put into eifect generally and recognized by international law, would enable the foreign element to surrender their citizenship to this country without any declaration ; so it would be impossible for us at any time in this country to know who is an American citizen or who is a citizen of the Soviet Republic of Russia. Mr. Martens. — Mr. Berger, permit me to make a few remarks. Mr. Berger is a lawyer, and he probably knows, that according to American law, if a man leaves a country and stays in a country more than five years, he loses his citizenship, without making any declaration to that effect ; is it not so ? The Chairman. — Yes. The Witness. — This fact about citizenship has uothing to do with any propaganda, or any facilitating of propaganda, as Mr. Berger wants to make you believe. The Chairman. — Mr. Berger, you claim the procuring of citizenship in this peculiar way, and that is why it occurs to you that there might be a general method of acquiring citizenship with a residence here ? Mr. Berger. — The point I desire to emphasize is this : The witness has testified if a man is admittedly honest, and expresses a desire and an intention of becoming a citizen of Soviet Russia, his mere declaration or sayso is sufficient. The Chairman. — Must not that be conveyed to the government in some way ? Must not that be explained to the other govern- ment ? Mr. Berger. — Did you suppose it was explained on the part of this government? But our country knows nothing about it; and on that theory we could not know how many individuals in this country who claim American citizenship; either by birth or naturalization, may at the same time be citizens of Soviet Russia. That is the point T want to emphasize. Assemblyman Pellet. — And the man would not have to go to Russia to become a citizen ? Mr. Berger. — That is correct. He could live here and claim protection of the American citizenship, and at the same time be a citizen of Russia under that method. The Witness. — It is not true, Mr. Berger. Mr. Berger. — Mr. Stevenson at this point would like to ask a few questions of Mr. Martens. By Mr. Stevenson: Q. Mr. Martens, you are a member of the Russian Communi&t Party, are you not ( A. Yes, sir. Q. And that party is the party which is now in control of the government of Soviet Russia, is it not? A. Yes, sir. Q. And Mr. Nicholas Lenine is the premier, is he not ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And Mr. Leon Trotzky is the Minister of War? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the Communist Party has issued a call for what is known as the Third International, is it not ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that call was made in the form of a numifesto, was it not ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it was signed by Charles Rakovsky, Nicholas Lenine — ■ A. Yes, sir. Q. B. Zinoviev, Leon Trotzky, Fritz Platten ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, I wish to read from a trans- lation of this manifesto which was published on May 10, 1919, the issue of " The Revolutionary Age," in Boston. The Chairmim. — All right, proceed. Is that a translation in English! Mr. Stevenson. — Yes, sir. The Chairman. — What is the original ? Mr. Stevenson. — Russian. 28 By Mr. Stevenson: Q. That is in Russian, isn't it ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Stevenson. — (Reading) — "To the proletariat of all coun- tries ! " Seventy-two years have gone by since the Communist Party of the World proclaimed its program in the form of the Manifesto written by the greatest teachers of the proletarian revolution, Karl Marx and Frederick Engels. Even at that early time," — and then it goes on to say: "For a long span of years Socialism pre- dicted the inevitableness of the imperialistic war ; it perceived the essential cause of this war in the insatiable greed of the possessing classes in both camps of capitalist nations." And, further on, it says : "And the German Socialist patriots, who in August 1914 proclaimed the diplomatic White Book of the Hohenzolleni as the holiest gospel of the people, today, in vulgar syco})hancy, join with the Socialists of the Entente coun- tries in accusing as arch-criminals the deposed German monarchy which they formerly served as slaves. In this way they hope to erase the memory of their own guilt and to gain the good will of the visitors. But alongside the dethroned dynasties of the Roman- offs, Hohenzollerns and Hapsburgs, and the capitalistic cliques of these lands, the rulers of France, England. Italy and the United States stand revealed in the light of unfolding events and diplo- matic disclosures in their immeasurable vileness." And then it proceeds further in describing the duties and requirements of the Communist ; it says : "Civil war if forced upon the laboring classes by their arch- enemies. The working class must answer blow for blow, if it will not renounce its own object and its own future which is at the same time the future of all humanity." "The Communist parties, far from conjuring up civil war arti- ficially, rather strive to shorten its duration as much as possible — in case it has become an iron necessity — to minimize the number of victims, and above all to secure victory for the proletariat. This makes necessary the disarming of the bourgeoisie at the proper time, the arming of the laborer, and the fonnation of a communist army as the protector of the rule of the proletariat and the inviola- bility of the social structure." The Chairman. — What is the date of that publication ? Mr. Stevenson. — May 10, 1919. 29 The Chairman.- — Is that published in the City of New York? Mr. Stevenson. — No, sir. It is published in Boston. It has been published at New York City at other times. I wish to offer those quotations in evidence. The Chairman. — They are received. (Received in evidence and marked Exhibit 305 of this date.) liy Mr. Stevenson: Q. Thi.s manifesto was issued as an appeal to all Communist groups in other countries, was it not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Nicholas Lenine has addressed a communication to the American workingmen, has he not ? A. Yes, as far as I know. Mr. Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, I wish to offer in evidence certain parts of ''A letter to American Workingmen," which is issued by Nicholas Lenine from Moscow August 20, 1918, and I wish to read parts, as follows : **A Russian Bolshevik who participated in the Revolution of 1905 and for many years afterwards lived in your country has offered to transmit this letter to you. I have grasped this opportunity joyfully for the revolutionary proletariat of America — in so far as it is the enemy of American imperi- alism — is destined to perform an important task at this time. The letter goes on to say: *' Political activity is not as smooth as the pavement of the Nevski Prospect. lie is no revolutionist who would have the revolution of the proletariat only under the 'condition' that it ])roceed smoothly and in an orderly manner, that guarantees against defeat be given beforehand, that tlie revolution go forward along the broad, free, straight, path to victory, that there shall not be here and there the heaviest sacrifices, that we shall not have to lie in wait in besieged fortresses, shall not have to climb up along the narrowest path, the most impassable, winding, dangerous mountain roads." And, further on it says : "In words our accusers ' recognize' this kind of class struggle, in deeds they revert again and again to the middle- class Utopia of ' Class-harmony ' and the mutual ' interde- pendence' of classes upon one another. In reality the class 30 struggle in revolutionary times has always inevitably taken on the form of civil war, and civil war is unthinkable without the worst kind of destruction, without terror and limitations of form of democracy in the interests of the war. One must be a sickly sentimentalist not to be able to see, to understand and appreciate this necessity." And, further on : " Its servants charge us with the use of terroristic methods. — Have the English forgotten their 1649, the French their 1793 '^ Terror was just and justified when it was employed by the bourgeoisie for its own purposes against feudal domina- tion. But terror becomes criminal when workingmen and poverty stricken peasants dare to use it against the bour- geoisie. Terror was just and justified when it was used to put one exploiting minority in the place of another. But terror becomes horrible and criminal when it is used to abolish all exploiting minorities, when it is employed in the cause of the actual majority, in the cause of the proletariat and the semi-proletariat, of the working-class and the poor peasantry." By Mr. Stevenson. — Q. Mr, Martens, if I understand this portion of Lenine's letter correctly, it is a statement that terror has been employed by the Soviet government ? A. Yes, it has been. Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Martens, have not a considerable number of commissars at one time or another been executed in Soviet Russia? A. Yes, sir, Q, I believe at one time you named to me the number? A. I think about ISOO of them. Q. About 1500 commissars were executed ? A. Yes, sir. Q. This publication of which a large number of reprints were found among documents recently taken in the raid on the head- quarters of the Communist party in this city made a week ago last Saturday night. Mr, Martens (interposing).— Mr, Chairman, permit me a question ? Mr, Stevenson, — Just a moment. The Chairman. — We will give you an opportunity to say all you desire. 31 Q. Mr. Martens, as a matter of fact the Russian Soviet Re- public is based upon the principles of the Communist Party of Russia, is it not ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Isn't it one of the principles of the Communist Party that the workers of the world should unite ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that they should unite to overthrow capitalistic system the w^orld over ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Isn't it the principle of the Russian Soviet Government that the capitalist governments of other countries should be over- thrown ; answer yes or no. A. I cannot answer yes or no. Q. You have done it for me once before ? A. Yes, but you put the question in different ways. Q. Well, supposing 1 put it precisely the same way Mr. Stevenson. — I offer the book I was reading from in evi- dence. The Chairman. — It will be received. (Received and marked Exhibit 306 in evidence of this date.) Q. The question is this : ^' Isn't it a fact that in overthrowing the capitalist system (referring to the Soviet Government ) they wish and state they wish the overthrow of the capitalist govern- ment ? " Answer my question, please. A. Do they wish the over- throw of capitalist government, or do they not wish to, is that the question? Q. Yes, sir. A. That is their wish. Their wish is to change from the capitalist system to the socialist system. The Chairman. — How do they expect this change to come about? The Witness. — Well, the change may come in many ways, Mr. Chairman; the change may come on purely pacific ways, and it may come as a result of a bitter struggle. Many ways are ix)ssible. Q. Mr. Martens The Chairman. — Just a minute. But they are willing to accept any way so long as it is done; so long as they obtain the result they do not mind which way that happens? The Witness. — They do not care how it is done. The Chairman. — Whether it is done by terror or diplomacy ? The Witness. — It is a matter of the working class. The Chairman. — It is a matter for themselves to settle. The Witness. — It is a matter for themselves to settle. 32 By Mr. Stevenson: Q. I ask this question again: Isn't it a matter wherever the Soviet Government issues propaganda advising the propriety of overthrowing of capitalist governments of other countries ? A. They are issuing propaganda as a defense. Q. I am asking you this question: Isn't it a fact that the Soviet Government issues proj^aganda advising the propriety of overthrowing the capitalist governments in other countries ? A. No, it is not a fact. I deny it. Q. In answer to that question before you said it does. A. It does in a specific way as a means of defense against attacking. Q» But it does, does it not ? A. Yes, as a means of defense. ]\lr. Berger. — Would you call Lenine's letter to the American workingmen a matter of defense, a matter of affirmative defense ? The Witness. — As a matter of defense to a certain extent. Mr. Berger. — Is it a matter of propaganda ? The Witness. — Yes, sir. Mr. Berger. — Then it is affirmative propaganda, is it not ? The Witness. — Yes. Mr. Berger.— I suggest that we take an adjournment. There are certain reasons why we want an adjournment at this time. The Chairman. — WTiat time do you suggest for the next meet- ing of the Committee ? Mr. Berger. — A week from to-morrow at 10 :30 a. m. At that time Attorney-General Newton will be down here personally, and I suggest that date, if it is agreeable to the Committee. The Chairman. — The Committee is satisfied to grant that ad- journment until that date and that time. Mr. Stevenson. — Will you direct the witness to return? The Chairman. — Mr. Martens, will you a]~)pear here before this Committee at this place at a week from to-morrow at 10:30 o'clock, to continue this examination ? The Witness. — Yes, sir. Whereupon, at 3:15 o'clock p. m., the Committee recessed to meet on Tuesday, November 25, 1919, at 10 :30 o'clock a. m. 33 MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES City Hall, New York, Noremher 25, 1919, 10.30' a. m. Present: Senator Walters, Senator ]\Lnllan, Asseinblvinnii Martin (N'^ice-Cliairnian), Asi-'enil)l_vnian Pellet, Assemblyman flenks. Assemblyman McKIJigot i, Senator Boylan, i\sscmblyman Bnrr. Aj)/)(':., the Committee returned to the Council Chamber). The Chairman. — The Committee will come to order. I assume you were to go on with some examination, General Newton? The Attorney-General. — Yes, .Mi-. Chainnan. Mv. ]\[artens, (Mr. Ludwig C. A. K. Martens takes the witness stand.) The .\ttorney-(ieneraI. — Mr. Martens, I understand you have been ])i-e\ioiisly sworn ( The Witness. — Yes, sir. Before we proceed, will you let me make -onie changes, some corrections in the minutes? 2 34 The Chai]'man. — Very well. Do you desire to read your cor- rections into the minutest There is no objection to that, is there, General ? The Attorney-General. — Xo, I have no objection to that. Assemblyman AfcEllioott. — Is that a stenogra})hic copy of the minutes ? The Witness. — Yes, I wish to correct. Assemblyman McElligott.- — From your memory or from some notes taken at the time ? The Witness. — ISTo, T have an official copy of the minutes. The Attorney-General. — He has an official copy of the minutes here. Deputy Attorney-General Berger. — I furnished a copy of the minutes to ]\Ir. j\Iartens' attorney. The Chairman. — You may proceed, if you desire to read your corrections, as I understand it, in the minutes. Is there objection to that, General ? The Attorney-General. — I have no objection. The Witness. — (Reading) : " Although ostensib-ly I have been called before your Com- mittee as a witness, yet in effect the statements given out to the pi-ess by the Attorney-General's office make it appear that the object of my examination is to obtain evidence in order to proceed against me. Still I have been denied the privilege of counsel — " The Chairman. — That is a statement, isn't it ? The Attorney-General. — That is a sermon you are preaching now, that is not a correction. Mr. Martens. — Yes, T will get to it in a minute. The Chairman. — I thought possibly you could nrake that state- ment at the end. The Attorney-General. — Well, let him do it in his own way first. 35 The Witness. — (Resuming reading) : " With the result that the examination has been one-sided and the testimony given by me, through its incompleteness is open to misrepresentation. I therefore desire to make the following statement, in order to correct actual errors and the gaps in the record. " 1. The record of my testimony on pages 1071-1072 contains the following questions and answers: " Q. Did you register as an alien enemy when you entered this country? A. 'No, sir. " Q. Or at any time when you were in this country ? A. No, sir. " Q. At any time while this country was at war with Ger- many ? A. No, sir. " Q. In spite of the fact you entered as a German citizen ? A. In spite of the fact that I entered as a German citizen. " Q. What citizenship do you now claim? A. Russian citizenship. " Q. How did you acquire Russian citizenship ? A. I applied for Russian citizenship papers since the outbreak of the Russian Revolution. "Q. When? A. In March, 1917. " Q. You have not left this country since you last came here? A. No, I did not leave. " Q. When did you receive notice of your having become a Russian citizen, Mr. ^fartciis ^ A. I tliink ^MaY, 1917, or maybe June, 1917. '" This testimony is followed by an effort to assail the regu- larity of my Russian citizenship. The examination con- ducted by Deputy Attorney-General and associate counsel to the Committee, however, has failed to bring out all the facts relating to my Russian citizenship, and it is a well-known rule that anything short of the whole truth may in effect amount to an untruth. My testimony shows that I was born and educated in Russia; that in 1899 by reason of my affilia- tion with the revolutionary movement, I was deported by the Czar's government to Germany ; that I continued my affilia- tion with the Russian revolutionary movement up to the revolution which began with the abdication of the Czai* to the establishment of the Provisional Government on IMareh 16, 1917. This Provisional Government was officially recog- 36 nized by the government of the United States and the State of ]S[ew York. " One of the first acts of the Provisional Government was a proclamation of amnesty for all political offenders which was made three days after the abdication of the Czar, to wit, on JMarch Id, 1917. The Provisional Government followed that act by an invitation to all Russian political refugees to return to Russia at government expense. Under the terms of the amnesty I was entitled to return to Russia. Owing to the fact, however, that, although born and bred in Russia, I was technically a German subject, and that Russia was then at war with (Germany, I could not avail myself of the benefit of the amnesty proclamation without a special act of the Provi'si(mal 'Government. 1\ thei^'efore immediately applied for admission to Russian citizenship, and my appli- cation was granted by the Provisional Government of Prince Lvov in ^lay or June, 1917. By this act of the Provisional Government, I thus became a Russian citizen. " I desire to emphasize the fact that my naturalization as a Russian citizen was granted by an act of the government which was recognized by the government of the United States. " Tlie general rules and regulations prescribed by the Attorney-General of the United States for the registration of German alien enemies, were issued on December 31, 1917, pursuant to the proclamation of the President of the United States, dated November 16, 1917. At that time I was already a Russian citizen and was therefore not subject to registra- tion under those Rules and Regulations." The second correction — Assemblyman McElligott. — How is that a correction of the record? That is an apology, isn't it? The Attorney-General. — Well, allow him to continue. Assemblyman McElligott. — I fail to see that it is a correction. We are willing to give him an opportunity to speak, but I don't see how you can attack the record at that point. The Attorney-General. — Well, T will try to find out vrhat he means, if we will have a little patience. 37 Tlic Witness. — The second correction, on page 1057 of the minutes, the following questions and answers appear: '* Q. Where was Lenine at that time ^ A. In lirooklyn." This is an error of the stenographer. I never made such a statement. The answer should be " In Switzerland." The Attorney-General. — *' Brooklyn '' should be changed to " Switzerland." The Witness. — Yes, sir. The Attorney-General. — Probably the Brooklyn people did not like that. The Witness. — Maybe not; I don't know. Pages 1072 and 1073 the following statement appears: '* The only thing I could tell you is that when I was a boy of alx)ut 17 years I applied for Russian citizen papers from the Russian Government and General Von Wahl refused to grant me citizenship papers ])ecause he wanted me first to serve in the German army and then to become a Russian citizen, so 1 was refused in 11)17 on account of not having served in the Gennan Army." " The year 1917 is obviously erroneous and in contradic- tion to the preceding pait of the same sentence, wherein I stated that at the tinu^ 1 first api)lied for Russian Citizenship ' I was a boy of a])out 17 years.' It is obvious that in the year 1917 I was no longer a boy of 17. I don't recall now what words I may have used, but it is obvjous that the words ' in 1917 ' are an error of the stenographer. " Very respectfully," Acting Chairnum ^lartin. — - Docs the General desire to take that memorandum of his ? Attorney-General Ne\vton. — If I want it, 1 will ask him for it. By the Attorney-General: Q. Now, j\Ir. Martens, the actual correction of the minutes consists in striking out the word '' Brooklyn," on ])age 1057, and inserting " Switzerland." That is all the correction on that page? A. Yes. The next eorreetion wiis on ])iiges 1072—73. 38 Q. I will get to that later. That was the only correction on that page!; A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, the other pag-e where you chiini the minutes should be corrected is on page 1072 (f A. And ^3. Q. 1073^ A. Ves. Q. Now, what is it you chiini is the matter with page 1072; what correction do you make there ''i A. 1 did not say that I was refused in 1917 on account of not having served in the Germany army. It evidently is a mistake. Q. That is on page 1073? A. Yes. Q. Is there any statement on ])age 1072 that you did not make when you were being sworn and on the witness stand ? A. The sentence ])eginning on page 1072 — it begins on page 1072 and finishes at page 1073. Q. That starts with: " The only thing I can tell you is when I was a boy "- — ? A. Yes. Q. Am] cu(h where? A. And ends ^' 1 was refused in 1017 on account of not having served in the German army." Q. It ends with the words " German Army ? " A. Yes. Q. Now, what do you say you said, intended to say ? A. The year 1917 is erroneous and in contradiction to the preceding part of the same sentence, wherein I stated that at the time 1 first ap- j)lied for Russian citizenshi]) I was a 1)oy of about 17 years. Q. Now, how old were you when you first applied for Russian citizenship? A. 17 years. Q, So that part is correct? A. Yes, but it was not in 1917. Q. Because you were more than 17 in 1917? A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, otherwise the stenographer reported you correctly ? A. Yes. Q. Now, you have read from a paper some statements in addi- tion to the corrections of the minutes this morning, have vou not ? A. Yes. Q. Who pre])ared that }iaper ? A. I myself. Q. With the assistance of anybody ? A. Yes, I consulted my lawyers. Q. This was got up by you for a purpose with the assistance of your counsel? A. Yes. Q.. It is not very material, but I see from the public press tljat you have started some action against some of the newspapers here for libel, or f^omething of that sort ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And was it the same counsel who started those actions, who ])repared this explanation ? A. Well, all my counsel prepared this. 39 Q. How iiiiiiiv have yon '. A. 1 have three. (^. I wanted to see how sorrv J ought to ])e for you. A. I have three. Q. And they were all together when this stateuicut you have read this nioruiug to the Committee was prepared^ A. Yes. Q. And whieh was intended as a correction of the minutes so far as you have pointed out, and some explanation of your posi- tion? A. Yes, a correction of the impression given. Q. A correction of v;hat you thought might he an imjn-ession gained by the reading of the testimony as published ? A. Yes. Q. Well now, you were asked — which you have read as one of the minutes on page 1072 — " When did you receive notice of your having become a Kussian citizen?" "A. I think maybe May, 1917. or may lie Tune, 1J)17." That is correct? A. Yes, that is correct. Q. How did you receive that notice? A. As I explained last time, from my relatives in Russia. Q. Well, I know, but how, by letter or how? A. By letter, yes. Q. Do you remember what one of your relatives advised you that you have been admitted to citizenship in the Russian Soviet Government? A. ISTot Soviet Government, but Provisional Gov- ernment. Q. Provisional Government? A. Yes. Q. Well, that is the Government of Lenine and Trotzky? A. No, the government of Prince Luvoff. Q. Do you recall just what one of your relatives advised you that you had been thus admitted to citizenship there? A. I was advised that I was a subject of the armistice — Q. My question is if you recall that one of your relatives gave you that information? A. I do not understand the question. Q. You say you got the information from a relative ? A. Yes. Q. Now, who ? What one ? A. What one ? My sister. Q. And was that contained in a letter? A. Tn a letter, yes. Q. Have you that letter? A. Not by me, l)ut 1 have it, yes. (\. Can you j)roduce it? A. Ves, 1 can. (\. Anan l)v '' ofHeial inforniaticni," :(»nu'thiiii;' said in the ncwsjjapors wliich yon did not say liere at tills meeting^ A. Certainly; it was said that I am heie for tho jnii-poso of overthrowing this government. Q. Well, did the newspapers assume to quote yon in tliat r(^s])eet, or was it an inference from wind you Inn] said ^ A. It was simply a statement. {}. \\'(>11, yon do not contend that th(^ n('wspa|)ers mis(piot(>d you ^ A. .\hsolnle]y they mis(pn)t(<] me, my intentions and m\- words. Q. Jn spile of that, tlu^ oidy correction you make to the recoi'd in regard to one or two very im])ortant things — A. Those news- ])aj)e!\s did not contain my statements which are in the record. ^fr. Stevenson. — You stand hv your statements in the record, do yon not ? The Witness. — Certainly. I>y the Attorney-General : Q. ]\Ir. Martens, I want to ask you a few questions as to your knowledge of the Russian bonds that were in force at the time of the formation of the Provisional government — and I mean by that identifying it with the reign of Lenine and Trotzky ? A. Russian what ? Q. Bonds. A. Yes. Q. Do you know how many bonds were issued by the former governments, or how many are outstanding against Russia? A. You mean foreign bonds ? Q. Yes, such bonds as were sold largely in the United States, do you not ? A. Yes. I know only of two bond issues ; one was made by the Imperial Russian government, $50,000,000, and another one was made In- the Provisional government, as far I remember it — also fifty. (}. So there were $100,000,000 in those bonds in force at the time of the formation of the Soviet government? A. Yes. Q. And you know as a fact that those bonds were sold quite extensively in the United States? A. Yes. Q. Now, what action, if any, did the Lenine and Trotzky gov- ernment take in relation to those outstanding obligations? A. The Soviet government ofFcn-ed, on several occasions, to pay these bonds. 42 Q. Well, offered to pay them how ? A. To negotiate about the method of pajTnent and to pay them. Q. Is it not a fact that they repudiated every financial obliga- tion of the former government ? A. "No, it is not true. Q. It is not ? A. 1^0. Q. That you know of your own knowledge? A, Yes. If you will permit me, I will tell you more about it. Q. Well, then, I will let yow tell what you know about it, of course. A. Well, the former obligations of the Imperial gov- ernment were repudiated by the Congress of Soviets, and the government of Soviet Russia was given the power to repudiate them at any moment officially. This power was never used by the Soviet government. The Soviet government offered, on many occasions, to come to an understanding with the Soviet Congress in regard to the pa^Tuent of the bonds. Q. In what way and upon what terms ? A, There are many terms possible — to pay the debts. The country is not in position at present, but they make methods so possible to adjust a settlement. Q. But you mean by settlement to pay less than the face of them ? A. No, to pay interest or to engage a concern of bankers to take over the debts or in any other way. Q. What particular information have you which is reliable that the Soviet government has ever in any way admitted or been willing to pay interest or assume the financial obligation of these bonds, in any way? A. I have an official paper from the Soviet government telling me to offer to the American government and to some concerns interested in the question of debts the settle- ment, so I did. Q. Have you that paper? A. Yes, I have it. Q. Can you produce it ? A. I could not produce the papers of the Soviet government without having the permission of the Soviet government. Q. You have such paper ? A. Yes. Q. Have it in your possession ? A. Yes. Q. So that we may have no misunderstanding about the record, you decline to produce it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What financial institution did you acquaint with the fact that you had such authority from the Soviet government ? A. Well, I had informal discussions with some people who are connected with these financial institutions, but it did not come so far that it could be called official negotiations. 43 Q. ^^'ill you t<'ll uic who it was? A. Well, I tried to approach the National City Bank. Q. Xatioiial City Bank ( A. Yes, sir. i}. Whom did you see at the Xational City Bank in relation to the matter? A. I did not see any of the officials of the National City Bank, but I saw some people who were interested, who held connections with the bank. Q. Tell me who they were. A. Well, I don't think I could tell you at the present moment before seeing the correspondence, but 1 will give you all information concerning it gladly after T look through the files. Q. And would you be prepared to do that — to-morrow morn- ing, you think ? A. To-morrow morning. Q. ]^ow, the official notification from the government which advises you that you had been accejated as a citizen of the Russian Soviet government, how did you receive that paper ? A. This particular paper I received by mail, if I remember right. Q. Is there any way, by the examination of the paj)er it:-;elf, that you can refr(Ksh your recollection °o that you can be positive about it ? A. Well, I think T can be refreshed, yes. Q. Among the various things that T am asking for, would that 1)0 too much to have you look up between now and to-morrow morning? A. ^o. Q. Outside of the bank you have referred to, did you make any suggestion of your government to care for these outstanding obli- gations through other banking institutions ? A. We ai-e trying to organize here a concern, a company which would lake care of all these matters. Q. My inquiry, so that we won't get off the track, that's all, my iiicpiirv is what other institution you attempted to commu- nicate the desire of the Russian Government to ])ny the obligations of these bonds you have referred to? A. T did not refer to any |)articular banking institution. My idea was to organize several hanking institutions and one big concern who couhl tak(» care of some big financial transactions. Q. Of course, the financial transactions, so far as these bonds a)"e concerned, consistc^d of an obligation on the j)art of sonu^ IJussian Government ? A. Vcs. (^. And They had already had the money, sonic Itussian Gov- ernment had already Inid the moncv ? A. Yes. 44 Q. And of course if they were ever paid they would have to be 2:)aid by Ru.ssia ? A. Certainly. Q. And there is no organization or combination of capital in this country which would help that in any way? A. Oh, yes, it could help in many ways. Now, you know, Mr. Newton, that ervQvy country in Eurojie is bankrupt now, the financial bankruptcy is all over Europe, not excluding England, Germany, France and also Kussia, and to make some financial arrangements it is neces- sary to have the assistance of the bankers and it is my idea to get the assistance here in the United States of America. Q. Of course, the obligation upon those bonds now is princi- pally in the payment of the interest, isn't it ? A. No, the bonds of 1919 are due now, I think they are due in June of this year. Q. Were they short term bonda ? A. Yes, Q. There are some obligations of interest on these bonds which have been out and unpaid for some considerable period of time? A. Yes, sir. It is my idea to pay all these debts, if the political and economic negotiations will proceed in a satisfactory way. Q. You are very certain that any information that I have that the Lenine and Trotzky government absolutely repudiated the linancial obligations of their country on those bonds is not so ? A. Not so, no. Q. And you are positive as you can be from information which you have that they are desirous of making some arrangements to pay those old obligations ? A. Yes. Q. Notwithstanding their o})position as to capitalized govern- ment or anything else ? A. Exactly. By Senator Walters: Q. General, may I ask him whether he is conscious of the fact that his statement may accelerate the purchase and sale of these bonds in this country at this time?' A. AVhat ? Q. I ask whether you are conscious of the fact that your state- ment might accelerate the sale and purchase of these bonds at this time ? A. When I made the statement I didn't think about it. Q. That carries with it that efPect ; now, are you in position to make such a statement to the public of this country that will create a confidence or accelerate the purchase and sale of these bonds ? A. I can make a statement to the American public that the Soviet Government is ready at anv moment to negotiate the 45 pjiyiiient of all foroii2,ii debts iiicludiii^i; the debt.; wbicb were Hoatcd here in ibe United States. Q. Have you an oHicial coniinnnieatidn lo that effect i A. ^ es, s i r. Q. Wonkl you mind fnrnisliiiii; \\\o Cuinniittee with that, with a ('0])y of that official comnmnicalion t A. Yes, sir; certaiidy. Q. rpou what action of the Soviet (rovernment is that founded ^ A. It is founded on direct communications I received from the Soviet Government and also from sevei-al offers made to allied governments — - — Q. You misunderstand ray question; who is the responsible Soviet, or what is the responsible Soviet Government ? A. It is a national executive committee of the Soviets, Q, There exists no longer a representative body or what we term in this country a legislative body? A. Yes, certainly it exists. The legislative body of Russia is a Congress of Soviets. Q. Is that Congress the responsible government or is the execu- tive committee the responsible government? A. The Congress is the responsible government. Senator Walters. — Then I ask you whether the formal com- munication which you have is founded upon the action of the formal government of .Soviet Russia ? The Witness. — Yes, sir. Senator Walters. — I beg your pardon, General, for interrupt- ing the examination. ^Fr. Stevenson. — Mr. Martens, isn't it one of the principles of the Russian Communist party that the capitalist should be ex- propriated ? The Witness. — Well, gentlemen — IVTr. Stevenson. — Well, answer the qu(\stion. The Witness. — I cannot answer it yes or no, without giving more explanation. Mr. Stevenson. — Well, isn't it a fact that the Communist prin- ciple is that the capitalist should be expropriated ? The Witness. — It is a principle of every Social partv, not only the Communist, but every Social party to establish a Social gov- ernmont in every country which is based upon common property for all. 46 Mr, Stevenson. — Has not Lenine stated that one of your prin- cipal objects at the present time is the complete expropriation and suppression of the bourgeoisie and capitalism? The Witness. — You are presenting the case too one-sided. Mr, iStevenson. — I am asking you the question. The Witness. — 'No, I deny it. Senator Walters. — I would like to ask another question : It is one of the ])rinciples of the Soviet 'Socialistic government that there is a distinction between the proletariat and the capitalist ? The Witness.- — Yes, sir ; there is. Senator Walters. — That there is no substantial, inherent right in property ? The Witness. — Yes. Senator Walters. — That pro])erty virtually belongs to the com- munity and that each shall share in the so-called property ? The Witness. — That is the Socialistic view. Senator Walters. — l^ow. that is carried to the extent that no class shall accumulate as against another class ? The Witness. — Whether that is so or not, is that what you want to ask me ? Senator Walters. — Is it one of the fundamental principles that no class of persons shall accumulate property as against another class ? The Witness. — Yes, sir. Senator Walters.- — If that should happen in Soviet Russia the distinction between the propertv in the hands of the poor and the property in the hands of the rich would immediately be destroyed ? The Witness. — I should not say immediately. •Senator Walters. — Eut that is the principle, that it should be destroyed ? The Witness.— Yes. . . ^ 47 Senator Walters. — If a class in Russia were to control a bond issue of Russia, the moment the bonds woukl come into the hands of the particular class of people, that would become capitalistic under vour detinition of the principle '. The Witness. — No, sir. Senator Walt(>rs. — How do vou tlu>n distinguish between those who accumulate and those who have not? TIk^ Witness. — -Permit me to make a little exphination. Senator Walters. — Certainly. The Witness. — Now, you see, you probably d€ not know that in Russia money as such is not confiscated by the Soviet Govern- ment. Every capitalist may have millions of money, he would not be touched. The only thing that would happen to him would be that he would not get interest for his money deposited in the banks. Senator Walters. — You don't want his money to become pro- ductive ? The Witness. — Yes, we don't want his money to become for the exploitation of other people. Senator W'^alters. — Well, isn't it fundamental that you do not desire his means to become productive? The Witness. — All means must become productive and Russia is at at the present times straining every nerve to get all means jiroductive. Senator Walters. — In other words, his money shall be apjdied to the benefit of Russia without any result in benefit to him ? The Witness. — Money as such is not productive. Senator \A'alt('rs. — Woiihl your Soviet prinei])le applied to the j'ccuiinihitiou of Ru.^sian 1)onds in this country lead your country to refuse to pay on the ground that the capitalistic class in this country had accumulated or had acquired those bonds? The Witness. — The Russian Soviet Government has nothing against — nothing against capitalists in this country. All they want is to make a compromise with capitalists in this country. Mr. Stevenson. — Is not that a temporary comj)romise? 48 The Witness, — JSTo, not at all. Mr. Stevenson. — I show you a paper and ask you if you recognize it ? The Chairman. — Are you through with your examination, General ? The Attorney-General. — No, no ; I have not started. The Witness. — It looks like a lot of laws and regulations of the Soviet Government, but I am not sure that it is. Mr. Stevenson. — I wish to offer this in evidence. (Received in evidence and marked Exhibit 307.) Mr. Stevenson. — This is a photostat of official Document 'No. 8 of the Soviet Government, Section 112. I will read a trans- lation : "Decision. 112. About the assignation of two million . roubles for the needs of the international revolutionary movement. " Taking into consideration that the Soviet power stands on the foundation of principles of international solidarity of the proletariat and the brotherhood of the toilers of all countries, that a fight against war and imperialism can lead to a full victory only on an international scale. " The Soviet of the Peoples Conunissaries considers it is necessary to come to the assistance of the left international wing of the labor movement of all countries with all possible, and among those with pecuniary means, absolutely inde- pendently from the fact whether these countries are at war with Russia or in alliance, or are maintaining a neutral condition. " With these aims the Soviet of the Peoples Commissaries decides to assignate for the needs of the revolutionary inter- national movement for the disposition of the foreign repre- sentatives of the Commissariat for foreign affairs two mil- lion roubles. " Chairman of the Soviet of the Peoples Commissaries VI. TJljanoff (Lenin) — " Mr. Stevenson, (Addresi-ang the witness). — That is Lenine, fnn vou tell me ? 49 The Witness. — Yes, that is Lciiiiie. ^ir. Stevenson. — Can you tell uie what Jate ^ Tho Witness, (Examining the transhition ). — 1 Jon't know whether the translation is made true, but anyhow^ it looks like a translation of a decree of the 2;5rd of December, 1,017. If you remember, gentlemen, the time, if yo.u know the circumstances which were connected with this decree, you will immediately understand that it was an offensive measure against, chiefly, the Imperial German Government — not the Imperial, but the present (ierman Government, yes, and the Imperial, too, which was menac- ing the existence of Russia at that time. j\Jr. Stevenson. — How about all countries'^ The Witness. — About all c()iuitri<>s. nothing said. Russia had mast to do with the German Government at that time. It was December, 1917, I repeat — not, at some time — ]Mr. Stevenson. — Just a minute. Coming back to the proposi- tion of the position of the SovifM (Jovernment towards the capital- ists and capitalism, Nicholas kenine speaks for the Russian Com- munist J'arty, does he not ^ rhe W^itness. — Yes. ^Ir. Stevenson. — 1 find in his work called '' The Soviets at Woik '' the folhnving on page 10 :. " A New Phase in the Struggle with Caj)italism. We have defeated the bourgeoisie, l)ut it is not yet destroyed or even com])letely con(piered. We nuist therefore resort to a new and higher form of the struggle w'ith the bour- geoisie; we must turn fi'om tlie very simple problem of eontimiing the expropriation of the ca])italists to the more com])lex and dif- ferent problem — the problem of creating conditions under which Hu' l)Ourgeoisie could neither exist nor conu^ anew into existence. It is clear that this problem is infinitely more complicated and that we can have no Socialism until it is solved. (Page 10 of " The Soviets at W^ork," was received in evidence and marked Exhibit No. 308). -Mr. Stevenson. — That is correct, is it not? The Witness. — It looks correct. 50 ]\rr. Stevenson. — As a matter of fact the offer ap|)arentlY made by the Soviet Government to pay the foreign bonds of the old regime is a matter sim])ly to bring about temporary peace and 2ecognition of the Soviet Government, is it not ? The Witness. — Yes, sir ; to bring a})Out peace, because Russia is not interested in war but has to reconstruct economically the country and cannot afford to spend all her energies with war, which Russia hates. Mr. Stevenson. — But in making such a payment on the old regime bonds, it will be going against the principles of the Russian Communist Party, would it not ? The Witness.— K'o. ^Ir. Stevenson. — It would, would it not? The Witness. — You are talking about purely theoretical things and are referring them to some particular — Mr, Stevenson. — Isn't it a matter of fact that the Russian Communist Party is attempting to put the theoretical into practice ? The Witness. — Certainly. Mr. Stevenson. — That is all. The Chairman. — Xow. General, you may proceed. The Attorney-General. — ^Ir. Stevenson read what you con- ceded I understand to be the position of the Lenine-Trotzky Gov- ernment in 1917 ? The Witness. — Yes, sir. The Attorney-General. — ISTow, do I understand you to say that they have receded from that position ? The Witness. — Yes, I should say. The Attorney-General. — In other words, what I call it they have reformed, in some respects? The Witness. — Well, if you like to call it so. The Attorney-General. — I say T would call it that. The Witness. — Perhaps (laughing). / 51 Mr. Stevensou, — Leniiio took that saine position in 1918, did hv n>)t, when he addressed his iii'sr letter (o AnnM'iean \V(n-kingmen? The Witness. — 1 think that was also in 1!)18. Air. Stevenson. — I think it was in 11)17. The Witness. — 1 (h)n"t icnieinher. The Attin'ney-GeneraL — What jinhlic ntterances of liis are there to show that he has had a clianiic of heart ( The Witness. — Well, there is sneh a lot of talk ahout ])ropa- fianda in other countries, 1 can only tell you that every i>'overn- ment uses its propaganda in othci- conntries, if the nionient suits, so it is not a secret if I tell that the rnited States (Joverninent used to make propaganda in (x.M'niany during the war and most ]'aart- ment explaining my purpose. Q. You did not answer my question. A. Yes, I will answer it — and all I cared about was to explain to the State Department what I am and what for I am here^ and send these papers asking the Secretary of State to give me an interview. That is all I did. That is all I cared to do. Q. ]My question is — if I have made it plain — if you made any inquiry of anyone who knew what particular form was usually pursued by the Ambassadors — those representing foreign coun- tries — in the presentation of their credentials to the State De- partment in Washington ? A. No, I did not make any inquiry. Q. You wrote Lansing a letter, then, before you sent those papers over there ? A. I sent my letter with these papers. Q. You sent your letter with these papers ? A. Yes. Q. And to that you never had any sort of acknowledgment from the State Department ? A. No. By Assemblyman McElligott : Q. Is there a representative of the old Eussian Imperial Gov- ernment at Washington to-day — the And^assador of Russia — is he still in Washington ? A. Not any representative of the Im- perial Government, but a representative of the Revolutionary Gov- ernment of Kerensky. Q. What is his name? A. Bakhmeteff. Q. He is a resident of Washington now? A. Yes, as far as I understand. Q. And what authority has he in regard to Russian matters? A. No authority whatever. Q. Well, did he protest against your introduction and the re- ceipt of your papers in Washington when they were sent there, do you know ? A. I don't know. 57 Q. Have you had any connection with him in any way? A. No, not at all. Q. Well, has he any standing in Washington as the representa- tive of the Ixnssian Government at the present time? A. As far as I know, he has. Q. Well, he is recognized, is he? Is he recognized hy the United States as the rei)resentative of Russia in the United States? A. Yes. Q. He is the recognized representative? A. Yes, but as a representative of what, nobody knows. Q. But he is recogniziMl as such, is he not? A. Xot one lawyer in the woi-ld will ex])lain the nature of Mr. Bakhmeleff. Q. 1 did not ask about any lawyers; I simply asked the fact of whether he is recognized. A. T don't know. Q. He is recognized by this government as the re])resentative of Ivussia ? A. Of Russia, or maybe Siberia — I don't know. By the Attorney-General: Q. Well, he was there as the duly accredited representative of the Russian Government before this change in the form of their government ? A. Yes. Q. And has continued to stay there? A. Yes, sir. Q. And there is no other repi'esentative of the Russian Govern- ment, so far as you know, in this country, excepting the one in Washington and yourself as the rejjresentative of the Russian Soviet Government ? A. Yes. Q. Yon say yes, you mean you two are the only two who are in ajiy wa,)' representing the interests of Russia ? A. Yes. Q. And of course u]) until now you have received no recog- nition as the Ambassador of your country from the government of this country ? A. Xot yet, no. (}. These pajx-rs were sent on to the Department of State about the middle of March, 1919 ? A. Yes. Q. Had you already opened an office here? A. Yes, I imme- diately {>])ened an office at 299 Broadway. (^. Before you scjit these papers on ? A. No, sinmltaneously. (^. What had been carried on in the office that you opened at L*99 Broadway before you established your headquarters there? A. It was the Russian Information Bureau. Q. Xuorteva in charge of it? A. Yes. 58 C^. liuw long had you kuowii him ^ A. Since the end of 1918. Q. And you came here — so that we won't be confused in our dates ^ A. January, 191G. Q. And what had you done in this country from January, 1916, down until the time you received this appointment as the representative of the Russian Soviet Government in March, 1919? A. I was acting as the representative of a big Russian steel firm. Q. Did you have an office? A. Yes, I had an office at the beginning in the Hotel McAlpin, and then I haven't had any particular office. Q. How long did you have an office at the Hotel McAlpin as the representative of this steel company ? A. About a year. There was a gentleman by the naine of Mr. Gibson who was at that time the representative of this firm, and when he left at the end of 19 IS I was representing the firm. Q. Were you under pay ? A. Yes. Q. From what company ? A. From Demedoff Cont Sandonoto. Q. Now that was a Russian corporation ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And their business was in Russia ? A. In Russia ; yes, sir. Q. Whou!. did you deal with in this country; who were you endeavoring to make contracts with ? A. I was buying for this firm. Q. You were buying? A. Yes. Q. Buying products here ? A. Yes, sir ; machinery. Q. Did you actually buy machinery ? A. Oh, yes, quite a lot, and shipped it on to Russia. Q. That was before the organization or formation of the Soviet Government ? A. Yes. Q. Now, did you receive money from this company ? A. Yes. Q. And monev outside of vour monthlv or weeklv wage ? A. Yes. Q. And expenses ? A. Yes. Q. Did you have any sum of money of this company on hand at the time of the receipt of the papers from the Soviet Govern- ment a])])ointing you the ambassador? A. Yes, I had about $20,000. Q. Now did you use any of that money in the organization of your bureau ? A. No, not a cent. Q. And did you then stop the employment — did you cease then to be employed by this Russian corporation in the purchase of machinery or products of any kind? A. I practically ceased 59 because no shipineiit was })ossil)le to Kussia, but 1 had outstand- iug orders which 1 paid by and hy. That is all that 1 have done for this firm. Q, You say you had about $20,000 on hand from this company at that time ( A. Yes, sir. Q. What became of it ? A. I spent it. Q. I just asked you if you spent any of the money you had on hand ? A. But not for the bureau ; you asked me if I spent it for the bureau ; I spent it in paying for orders for this firm. Q. You spent it by paying for things for which you had con- tracted ^ A. Yes. Q. Were they shipped ( \. No, they were not shipped. Q. They are not shii)})ed yet 'i A. No. Q. Now do you know what became of the company after the Soviet Go^'ernment was organized ^ A. Y'^es, I know. Q. Taken over by the Soviet Government, wasn't it ? A. No, it was partly destroyed by the Kok'hak bands and Czecho-Slovaks, and now it is under the jurisdiction of the Soviets. Q. Have they made any denunid for the shi})ment of the macliinery or products that you purchased with this $20,000 ? A. They didn't mention it. Q. As far as you know thc^y don't know anything about it? A. No. Q. My information came that you had stated that you mingled this $20,000 with your own money, or with the Russian Soviet money that you had received. A. No, it isn't true ; I can prove it. Q. I say possibly I am mistaken about my information, but if I have been so inforriied, that isn't the fact? A. It isn't the fact, no. Q. Is your Bureau still at ii)^ Broadway? A. No, it is 110 ^Vest 40t'h Street. (}. And when did yon move from 299 Broadway to the new (juarters ^ A. 1 think it was A])ril of this year. Q. So you actually moved from there before you received — A. No, that was March. Q. You didn't move ? A. About a month later I moved. Q. What office force have you in your new quarters? A. I ha've about 30 men working. Q. Consisting of clerks and stenogra])liers? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many clerks ? A. About eight clerks, ten stenogra- phers. 60 Q. What are the duties of the other employees? A. Why my office is divided into separate departments, commercial depart- ment, publicity department, economical department, statistical department, and technical department. Q. Any legal department 'i A, A legal department. Each department is in charge of a gentleman. Q. Who reports to you? A. Yes. Q. And are responsible to you for the conduct of the various departments over which they preside? A. Yes. Q. And I take it that you assume full responsibility for the acts of the heads of these departments ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, to go back a moment to the date of the receipt of your credentials in March, which you say were delivered to you by a special messenger, did you receive any other communication in the form of letters or other documents at that time ? A. Yes, sii, I am receiving from time to time. Q. No, no, I am back now to the date when you received your official announcement of your appointment as ambassador to the Soviet government ? A. Yes. Q. By the same messenger who delivered those papers to you, did you receive any other }>apers or documents ? A. Yes. Q. And among them were there instructions; did you receive instructions? A. Yes. Q. From the Soviet govei'nment ? A. Yes. Q. And you have those now ? A. Yes. Q. x\nd you could produce them if you desired to ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And do you take the same ])osition with those papers that you did with tbe other? A. Yes, sir. Q. And decline to |)roduce them for tlie inspection of the Committee? A. Yes, sir, unless my government agrees to it. By Assemblyman McElligott: Q. How long would it take for you to get in touch with your government to find out whether your govenmient would be will- ing to disclose those documents or not ? A. About two months. Q. About two months ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You would have to send an ambassador to your government and would have to have him come back ? A. Yes, sir. Q. ITov/ would your messenger go ? A. I decline to answer that. 61 \>\ the Attoniov-CTpiieral : Q. Whv do you deeline to give the Coininittce the iiiforniatioii as to the way a messenger \\nould reach your country ? A. I will (>x])lain it, J\lr. Xewton. Because it is not within the scope of an investigation of this (^onnnittee. Q. Is that your owni reason ( A. Yes, sir. Q. In other words, you don't think it is any of their husiness, io he perfectly plain, so we will understand ? A. It is not within the scope of the investigation of this Committee. (,). Wlio told you that ^ A. Well, I know what this ronunit- tee is for. Q. Did somehody tell you it was not any business of this Com- mittee how you connnunicated with your own government, whether it was open and above board or secretly ? A. JSTo, I told myself. Q. You told it to yourself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Xone of your legal staff gave you that opinion as a lawyer ? A. I have also the o})inion of my lawyers. Q. They agreed with you about that ? A. Y^es. Q. Is there any objection to telling us what particular one of your lawyers concurred in your judgment on that proposition? A. I shouldn't care to tell that. Q. Don't want to tell ? A. N'o. Q. Aren't ashamed of his advice ? A. 'No, I am not ashamed ; I think the advice is quite right. Q. But you don't want to tell us which one of them it was? A. T think all of them. Q. Was it Weinstein — you said you didn't care to tell ? (No answer.) (). Will you give the Committee a list of your staff of lawyers up to date? A. Will I give it? Q. Yes, the names of them. A. Yes, certainly. Q. As a matter of interest, I don't suppose it is of any great concern; I would like to have it. A. T^ow? Q. Yes, the names of them ; can you do it offhand ? A. Yes. The Economical and Statistical Diepai'tment is in charge of Prof. Hourwich. Q. Don't misunderstand me ; I asked you for your staff of lawyers, up to date. T may take that up step by step as I ask some questions about the particular workings of your ofEce. A. My lawyers are Mr. Hillquit and Mr. Recht. 62 Q. Morris Hillqiiit ? A. Yes, and Charles Recht. Q. I thought you told me this morning that you had three lawyers; did I misunderstand you? A. Well, officially Prof. Hourwich is helping me as a lawyer, but his official capacity is not as my lawyer, but as manager of the statistical department. Attorney-General Newton. — Mr. Chairman, it is suggested that we take our recess at this time. The Chairman (Mr. Martin). — The Committee will take a recess until 2 :15. (Recess until 2:15.) AFTERNOON SESSION — 2:35 P. M. The Chairman. — The Committee will come to order. You may proceed. General, with the examination of Mr, Martens. Is Mr. Martens here? The Attorney-General. — He is here. I>y the Attorney-General : Q. Mr. Martens — The Witness. — Mr. Chairman, will you allow me to explain why I declined to surrender certain of my papers ? The Attorney-General. — Some explanation beyond the one you gave this morning? The Witness. — Yes. The Attorney-General. — Yes, I am going to let you explain. The Chairman. — I did not hear what you said. The Attorney-General. — The witness wants the privilege of making a further explanation why he declined to produce some of his papers. I am inclined, if the Chairman is willing, to permit it, and will give him very great latitude. The Witness. — I declined to do it on the ground that it has been held by the United States Supreme Court, in the matter of the Pacific Railroad Commission (32 Federal Reporter, 241), 63 that Congress cannot compel the production of private books and papers of citizens for its inspection, except in the course of judi- cial proceedings; and it has been explained, in the same decision, that an investigation of a legislative committee is not a judicial ])roceeding, I am advised by counsel that the pov^ers, as a Com- mittee of the Xew York Legislature under the Constitution, are no broader than the powers of a committee of the United States Congress. Notwithstanding this privilege, I have produced for Tlie inspection of your Committee all my books and papers relating to my own activities in the State of New York. I insist, however, on my privilege under the decision of the United States Supreme Court, insofar as my correspondence with my government is concerned. By the Attorney-General: Q. Who prepared that statement for you ? A. My lawyers. Q. And at their suggestion you ask the privilege of reading it into the record ? A. Yes, sir, Q. They did not read you any provision of the Code of Civil I'rocedure of this State, did they ? A. I do not know what you mean. Q. I hold in my hand what is supposed to be the law of this State, the Code of Civil Procedure, which defines certain law and practice. Did counsel call your attention to any provisions of this Code in answering the proposition that you have just discussed? A. Xo, Mr. Newton. Q. Well, wnll you make a little minute on your papers there and ask them to read section 656 of the Code of Civil Procedure, and ask them if they do not want to advise you to-morrow to change your mind. A. (Witness makes note as requested.) Q. About how much is the payroll, per week, of your office? A. About $1,200. Q. And does that include your own compensation? A. Yes. Q. And has that l)een about the average since March 15th? A. Since April. Q. Since April? A. Yes, sir. Q, And what is the source — or from what source do you get the money to carry on this office? A. From the Soviet govern- ment. Q. All of it ? A. All of it, yes. Q. Have you accepted contributions from any other source? A. No, I haven't any contributions. 64 Q. N'ot a dollar ? A. 'Not a dollar. The Chairman. — How much was that payroll ? The Attorney-General.— $1,200 a week. By the Attorney-General: Q. Now, have you had any other expenses except the payroll of your office force and the rent '( A. I had exj)enses in connection with the publication of our papers, '' Soviet Russia." Q. Are there any other expenses of your organization there except the publication of this paper and the payment of the rent of your office and the office force 'i A. No, that is all. Q. Including yourself, of course? A. Yes. Q. Who fixes your compensation? A. I myself. Q. Yow have never had any arrangement with your govern- ment as to how much you should receive? A. No. Q. You take what you think your services are worth ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you take it from the money that has been furnished by the Soviet government? A. Yes, sir. Q. How do you receive these moneys from the Soviet govern- ment ? A. It is sent to me direct. Q. Well, in cash ? A. In cash, yes. Q. Regular money? A. Regular money. Q. And by messenger, I take it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in what sums ? A. In sums up to about twenty to twenty-five thousand dollars. Q. At a time ? A. Yes. Q. And the total up till now has been about what ? A. About sixty to seventy thousand dollars. Q. When did you receive the last money .' A. About five weeks ago. Q. Do you know whether or not there is any more on the way ? A. Why, I don't know. I hope there is. Q. And you have no way of knowing it until it is actually handed to you just how much is eoniing, or how, or when? A. No. Q. Will you tell me who handed you any one of these amounts ? A. No, I can't tell you, Mr. Newton. Q. What? A. I cannot tell you. Q. You do not mean you cannot tell; you mean you decline to tell? A. Yes. 66 (^. And for the same reason you. have given in your refusal to answer other inquiries which have been made, which you have re- fused to answer i A. Yes, sir. Q. In other words, your refusal to imswer that and similar ([uestions is based upon the proposition that you are the duly accredited representative of the Soviet government ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And really stand in the same position as though your govern- juent had been recognized by this countiy ? A. A es, sir. Q. Although, as a matter of fact — there is no dispute about it — there has been no such recognition 'i A. Not by the United States Government; but the I'nited States Government did not express itself. Q. Well, they have never, to your knowledge, in any way rec- ognized the Russian Soviet Government ? A. No, they have not. Q. And you have taken their absolute silence on the subject as a declination to so recognize your Government, have you not? A. No, not exactly. Q. Well, have you taken their absolute silence on the subject as an acquiescence of recognition ^ A. I have taken it that the moment is not opportune to deal with the Soviet Government. Q. That the officials in chaigc have not yet had nerve enough to decide the (piestion one way or the other ? A. I don't know whether they have had nerve enough or not, but the fact is they have not expressed themselves. Q. And you have been willing to accept the refusal to act at all as a possible conclusion that they might favor your government ? A. T hope they will favor it. Q. You ho]ie they will, but do you accept their refusal to act at all as an indication that they might recognize vour government? A. Yes, T do. Q. And that is the only hope you have? A, I have several other hopes. Q. You have other hopes ? A. Yes. Q. What are they ? A. The whole political situation of the world ; the business negotiations which are being conducted now lictween my government and other governments. Q. Well, do you think that the action of any other government would influence our government here ? A. It is my heartiest wish. Q. T understand that, but do you have any real hope of it ; is your wish founded on any real hope? A. Yes. 3 66 Q. Of course, the old saviu^ii, 1 assume, a[)plies there, of " If wishes were horses 'i " A, I feel about the same, except that it is a little bit uiore thau horses. Q. This money, when it comes to vou from the representative of your government, as it is lunided to you, is it in cash i A. It is in cash, yes. Q. And have you ever made a deposit iu any bauk, in cash, as high as twenty thousand dollars ( A. Yes. Q. When? A. I don't remember the exact date, but I have had in my liank at times about twenty to twenty-five thousand dollars. Q. I understand that, but that is not the question. I want to know if there was ever a day when you went into any l)ank in New York and deposited tweuty thousand dollars in cash at one time? A. No, not at one time. Q. What is the highest sum, or highest amount, yon ever deposited at any one time? A. 1 thiidc about ten thonsand dollars. Q. And at those times von had larger sums upon your person? A. Yes. Q. And yon carried the cash around with yon rather than to make the deposits? A. I probably carried it in my safe deposit at the bank. Q. What is yonr reason in taking, say, $20,000 from your government in cash, putting $10,000 in the bank and keeping the other $10i,000 on your person or in your safe deposit box, if you had a reason? A. Well, no particular reason, but I am keeping always as much money as I a])proximately need for a week or two. Q. You pay most of your obligations by check, do you not ? A. By cheek. Q. So that money which you keep in your pocket or keep in the safe deposit box you didn't use for current expenses ? A. No, I did not. Q. The reason you have given me isn't a very good reason, is it? A. Why? Q. The reason you just gave me isn't a very good reason in answer to my inquiry ? A. The money is just as safe in my safe deposit as in the bank. Tt doesn't give me any interest. Q. It is just as safe in your pocket if some of these New York fellows don't find out you are carrying it around. A. I don't carry it in my pocket. 67 Q. Where is your siit'c deposit ]n)\ ( A. iMiuitablc Trust Coiu- pauy. Q. And have you any lariic sums of cash in that now ^ A. Xot now. Q. How much wouhl say otl"-hand that you have on hand in cash in your safe (h'posit box ( A. At the present moment, noth- ing. (j. What was the hisl suiu of any amount tlial you had in tlie l)ox^ A. About $15,000. Q. And when was that ( A. A few months ago. Q. Did you take it all out one time? A. Yes — no, gradually; excuse me. Q. Did these lawyers that you have hired, that you have mentioned here, know al)()ut that, about the cash ? A. The lawyeriS? Q, Yes. A. What has it to do with the lawyers ? Q. Doesn't the money you have got have any relation to the hiwyc^rs which you hire^ A. 1 don't understand the question. (^. Xow you have already testitied to the amount of money that you had received from your government uj) to August ? A. Yes. Q. You were examined over at the Attorney-GeneraFs office and gave them some figures over there? A. Yes. Q. Did you have the figures of the amounts at those times cor- rectly in your mind ? A. Approximately. Q. March, 1910, $20,000? A. Yes. ' Q. April, 1919, $20,000^ A. Yes. Q. May, 1919, $10,000? A. Yes. Q. July, 1919, $20,000? A. Yes. Q. So that made a total that you testified that you had received from the Soviet Government up to possibly and including July, of $70,000? A. Yes. i}. Xow how much did you tell me you had received since? A. $20,000. Q. So that the sum total of the moneys you are willing to swear you have received from the Russian Government is about $90,000 ? A. About $90,000, yes. Q. And the very last item which you received was how long ago? A. About five or six weeks ago. Q. Haven't you received any in November? A. November, no. Q. Not any in November? A. No. 68 Q. Do you know whether or not anyone in the Bureau has received any money from any source from the Russian Soviet Government except you? A. No, nobody receives any money. Q. K obody receives any money except you 'i A. Except me. Q. If I understand you correctly, every dollar of this $90,000 has been handed to you by some agency of the Soviet Government in cash ( A. Yes. Q. And all in American money ? A. Xo, not quite. Some of it was in foreign money. Q. How much of it was in American money ? A. About a; quarter of this money was — three-quarters of this money was in American money. Q. About one-fourth was in — A. Swedish, Danish, Norwe- gian and Dutch. Q. But all in the form of cash. A. All in the form of cash. Q. What do you do with the foreign money? A. I deposit it in my bank. Q. You dei:)Osited that as cash and it was accepted by the bank as cash ? A. Yes. Q. With the American valuation of the particular money? A. Yes. Q. What form was the American money, gold, silver, bills? A. Bills. Q. And the demoninations, large or small ? A. Large denomi- nations. Q. How large, the largest ? A. Not less than $100. Q. And how much larger, if anything? A. Up to a thousand dollars. Q. Some thousand dollars bills ? A. Some a thousand dollars. Q. Do you give any receipt to the person who makes the deliv- ery ? A. No, the receipts are not necessary. Q, Whether they are necessary or not, you don't give any? A. No, I don't give any. Q. And there is no acknowledgedment on your part to your government of the receipt of a single dollar of this money ? A. I re])ort to my government for every cent of money I am receiving. The Chairman. — You are what ? The Witness. — I am reporting to my government about every cent of money I am receiving. Q. How do you make those reports ? A. I am sending reports. 69 Q. By mail ? A. Partly by mail, partly by messenger. Q. When you send a report of the expenditure of your money by mail, where do you send it 'I A. I decline to answer it. Q. Will you tell me whether or not you send it directly to your own country? A. No, I cannot send it directly to my own coun- try because my own country is blockaded and T could not send any- thing directly. Everything is sent indirectly. i}. Anet out of this countiy i A. I don't know. Q. Have you ever been asked jo intere.st youi'.-clf in fui-nisliini; passports for tliein ? A. Xo. Q. Have you ever intei-ested yourself in gettini* pass|)oits for anybody to leave this counti'y i A. Xot at all. Mr. Stevenson. — Is that true ( The Witness. — Certaiidy it is true. Q. And you haven't in fact been in any way instrumental in procuring any passports for anybody ( A. Al)S()lutely. Q. Either to get in or to get out of this country t A. Absolutely. Q. Do you know what became of any one of these men who delivered these sums of money to you, after they tinished their business with you ? A. I don't know. Q. Ever call on you again ? A. Xo. Q. Xever came around and asked ynu to enteitaiii them in any way? A. Mr. Xewton, I have to again decline to answer your question. You go again to the same point. Q. Xo, that is general, I could not identify any of them if I saw them with you. A. When thd hy the Committee hereafter. Q. Xo\v you have had at least live separate deliveries of inouej in tlio manner in which you hav(> d<'scrihod from the Soviet Gov- crniiicut ? A. Yes. Q. Were there more than live ^ A. No, five, that's all. Q. And hy a ditforent a^cnt each time ^ A. Each time. Q. And do you now know wiiether or not anyone of the five are within the United States^ A. I decline to answer that. Q. I haven't asked you whore they were, I have asked you whether or not you know' tliey are here; do you decline to answer that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why do you decline to answer that? A. T liavo reasons to do it. Q. What are your reasons^ A. My reasons are 1 am bound ])y honor not to disclose their whereabouts and w^ho they are. Q. I haven't asked you where they are, I have given you the broad country? A. Tt amounts to the same. Q. Do you know the whereabouts of any (mo of the five? A. Ves, I know. Q. You do know ? A. Yes. Q. Now do you think that the brinfjinaid him — cash or check th'cn, but I paid him $500 back. Q. And you cannot tell a transaction of that sort since the 6th of November, where you were returning $500 of an obligation — you cannot tell whether it was cash or a check or the form of the payment? A. Well, Mr. Newton, I have many other things to do, so this little point might escape my memory. Q. You are pretty nearly as busy as the Attorney-General, I take it ? A. Yes. 77 Q. Well, who is this doctor^ A. He is a doctor. Q, J s he a regiihir doctor ^ A. Yes. Q. What we call, up in the country, a " pill doctor," a medical man ? A. ^'es, a medical man. Q. A Russian ^ A. ^'es, Q. How long have you known him ( A. I have known him about three years. Q. You got acquainted with him after von came here to A'ew York^ A.^Yes. (}. And visited him ( A. \'es. (}. You lived at the siime j)l;ic(' ^ A. Xo. Q. Where was he living when you visited liim i A. 1 p town. Q. Well, that is soniewhat indefinite to us. A. I don't remem- ber where he lived, but \ think it was 8oth street. Q, How long since he has visited you? A. The last time, about the end of the last year. Q. Well who made the application for this thousand dollar loan ( A. I myself. Q. How much money did you have on deposit in the l)anks here the day he let you have that money? A. I don't remember. Q. At least $19,000, did you not? A. What ( Q. You had at least $10,000 in cash on deposit in the bank on the day he made that loan to you? A. No, I don't think it was as much. Q. Well $1.5,000? A. Where did you get this figure from, Mr. Xewton? Q. Well, having learned something al)Out declining to answer, I accept one of your reasons. A. I don't understand your argu- ment, ]\rr. iSre\\i:on. The Chairman. — Would you sjieak more clearly? Q. Yes. I want to ask you if, on the day of the borrowing of this $J,000, you did not have at least, to your credit in tlie banks in Xew York, $15,000? A. No, T did not have it, otherwise^ T would not borrow this money. Q. How much would you say was the least you had in the l»iinks on the day yon boi'row(>d the $1,000 from him? A. i\Iaybe a couple of thousand. Q. What was the necessity for borrowing from your friend, the doctor, $1,000 if you had $2,000? A. T had to pay salaries; T had to pay for printing of paper. Q. Has there been a day since the receipt of that $20,000 in Mareli, 1019, when yonr hank balances here have not been more than $10,000? A. Yes, on several occasions it was more than $10,000. Q. ]\rv (^nestion is if you will swear there is a day since that $20,000 was deposited in IVfarch, 1019, when your daily balance in the banks here has been less than $10,000? A. You are mistaken. Q, Xo, I am askinu' you to swear. A. I never told you that I deposited $20,000. Q. jSTo. T know you uev(M- did. T liave not said you told ine so. I am asking you to swear to the fact. A. What is that ? Q. T am asking; you to swear to a fact. A. What ? Q. Well, what do you say was the least daily balance of cash that you had in the banks of T^ew York since March, 1919 ? A. The least? Q. Yes. A. About $100. Q. Did you have any in your pocket at the time when your bank account ran down to $100 ? A. No. T had not, other- wise T would have deposited it in the bank. Q. Did you have any in your safe deposit box ? x\. I had not. otherwise T would have deposited it at the bank. Q. Did you eet this $1,000 from the doctor on the day that you deposited it to your credit in the People's Xational Bank of New York ? A. Yes. At the time T had not enough money io pay my obi ig'at ions ; that is the reason why I borrowed this money. Q. TvTow, do you know what the bank book will show as your balance of cash in the banks where you carry an account, on the 1st day of ?^ovember, the day of the deposit of this $1,000 that you say you got from the doctor? A. 'Ko, I don't remember. Q. Will you swear it was not more than $5,000? A. T think not. Q. Y(Mi think not ? A. T think it was not more. Q. That is as strong- as you want to put it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What other bank do you carry an account in ? A. The State Bank. Q. Do you carry any account in any other banks except the Public National Bank of New York and the State Bank? A. The Public National Bank of New York and the State Bank. 79 Q. Those are the ouly two you have had any hanking experi- ence with by way of deposits '( A. The Guaranty Trust Company, too. Q. That was some time ago i A. Yes. Q. I find a man here by tlie name of Adams. Who is he? A. He is the manager of my teehnieal department. Q. How much money have you paid Adams in November? A. I think about $2,000. Q. Does he get .$:2,000 a months' A. Xo, lie is not getting so much. It is his expenses. Q. On the 12th of IvTovemher did you make a deposit of cash in tlie Public National P>ank of Xew York? A. Maybe; I don't remember. Q. Was tliat made by you ? A. Yes. Q. Where did you get it? Where did you get this $1,000 from? A. I had in my hands some money. Q. Well, two days before you drew out $1,000. Am I right about it? A. Yes; that looks right (indicating in check book). Q. 'Now, you told me, if T understood you correctly, that you thought that at tlie time you got this $1,000 from the doctor, upon the 1st of ^N'ovemlier, that your bank balance was dowm to $100. Did I understand you correctly ? A. IXo ; sometimes it reached $100. Q. Well, how uuu'li was it on the day you got the $1,000 from the doctor? A. T don't remember. Q. Well, what is your best recollection? A, Maybe a couple of thousand. Q. If you had $2,000 in the bank would you be apt to go out and borrow a thousand ? A. Yes, if I had to pay more than $3,000. Q. Am I correct in the conclusion that your bank balance in this bank on November 1st was $2,448.02? A. (Examining check book.) Yes. probably it was. Q. Whose -figures are those that are crossed out, $18,696.31 ? A. That means that it was deposited — the red ink — adjusting the totals — it does not mean that it was actually in the bank. Q. W^ell, now, without any apparent deposit at all, from then to the 3d of !N'ovendier, your bank balance shows $3,286.96, does it not ? A. No. it does not. It is simplv the sum of all these totals. It was the totals of all checks. Q. Well, then, there is no way of showing from this book? A. Yes, the difference. 80 Q. You cany the total deposits on one side and the withdrawals on the other side '( A. Yes, on the other side. Q. Then I have got you to say something that you did not mean, w^hich I did not intend to do. I had you tell me that your balance on November 1st was $2,443.02. A. No, it was not. Q. Your balance on that day was $3,848.42? A. Minus $2,443.02. Q. What is that $2,443.02^ A. Here? Q. Yes, the addition of those sums. A. Yes. Q. On November 6th I find the withdrawal by yourself person- ally of a thousand dollars; am I right about that? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember what you did with that money ? A. .\s far as I remember, 1 paid part of my debts and part for my own personal expenses. Q. Do you know a gentleman in this city by the name of Dudley Field Malone ? A. Yes, I know him. Q. Friend of yours ? A. Not a friend. Q. Ever employ him for anything? A, Yes, 1 did. Q. What did you hire him to do ? A. To help me in a com- mercial transaction. Q. What one ? A. I purchased some boots through his inter- mediary and I wanted to organize for the shipping of goo tliem. Q. Has he ever made any since he got that '. A. I don't re- member any. Q. The last time I think you and I luid a little visit was the way the search warrant was issued and the autliorities or sonio- l»ody took possession of some of the effects of your office ? A. Yes, sir. Q. I have forgotten when that was. A. Twelfth of June. Q. Following that, what I think you termed a raid? A. Yes. Q. You made some public addresses? A. Yes. Q. In whidi you criticized the action of the authorities and the Committee in that transaction!' A. 1 did not criticize; I simply stated ptdilicly wlnit my duties are here and what I -mw doing here. Q. Whetliei- it lie criticism oi" not. at that time and on the same platform ^Nfr. Alalone spoke witli you in relation to the ;^ubject, didn't he ? A. No, T don't think he spoke with me. Q. Are you sure about it? A. I am almost sure about it. Q. Has he ever spoken from the same platform with yon or not of these problems? A. No, I never spoke with him. 82 Q. And if 1 have rceeived such iiifonnation of that, it is not accurate ? A. 'No, it is not accurate. By Mr. Stevenson : Q. Do you remember a certain meeting, in Madison Square Garden in June? A. After the raid, yes. Q. Did Mr. Malone speak at that time ? A. No. Mr. Stevenson. — I have the record. By the Attorney-General: Q. Do you know whether or iKjt Mr. .Mah)ne has organized a corporation for the purpose of dealing with Soviet Russia? A. i^o, not as far as T know. Q. You have had no communication with him on any such subject as that? A. I discussed it with liim on several occasions, the shipment of goods to Russia, and his al)ility to organize some- thing of this sort, but that's all. Q. Did you knoAV he had made an effort or had actually organ- ized such company or corporation ? A. Xo. Q. Did you have a meeting on the same subject at the Wahlorf- Astoria ? A. With whom ? Q. A meeting in which you were ])resent at any rate ? A. T was on many occasions at the Waldorf- x\stori a. Q. On this subject of organizing a com])any to deal with Soviet Russia ? A. No, I was not present. Q. I^ever been present at any meeting in which that sul>ject was discussed? A. In the Waldorf-Astoria, never been present. Q. If there has been any meeting there to discuss such a sub- ject, you know nothing about it? A. ISTo. Q. Are Mr. Adams' duties confined to your Ts'ew York office ? A. To the technical department of my bureau. Q. Are all of the things he does done here in this city, or does he go about in other places? A. No, he is staying here. Q. Have you any branches of your office? A. Tn Detroit. Q. Wlio is in charge of the Detroit office ? A. Dr. Rovin. Q. What is his first name? A. I don't remember. Q. Is he a Russian ? A. Of Russian extraction, Q. Is he a citizen? A. Yes, he is a citizen. Q. jSTaturalized citizen? A. Yes. Q. Where did you get acquainted with him ? A. Tn Detroit. 83 Q. Has ihat Uceii iiis home tor sonic timc^ A. ^'os. Q. Is ho a niodical man 't A. Yes, he is a bax;tei'iologist. Q. How lontroit ( A. About four or tivo niontlis. Q. How many eni|)h)y(>s in that dllicc ^ A. Only one. 1 think. It is quite a small otfico. Q. Doos the dootin- iict a snhiry ( A. Xo. he docs not. (^. Are the otlicc expenses paid iVom your otfiee here ^ A. \ es. Q. And the other enii)loyes, are the emj)loyes- whoever they arc, outside of the doctor paid from your office here ^ A. Paid from my of}ic(^ her(\ Q. Paid direct hy you ( A. "i^'s. Q. By checks A. Yes. Q. What is the n(>cessity for your office in Detroit^ A. My idea was to interest the I)(»troit manufacturers in a Iraih' with Soviet Russia. I intended to ])lace an order for fifty million dol- lars with Detroit manufactur(>rs. The Chairman. — What kind. The Witness. — Foi- mot(U' cars and tractors. Q. You haven't placed any such contract ? A. Yes, I have placed some for a small amount. Q. With whom ? A. I dcni't rememher the name of the firms, hut I negotiated with the Ford ^NFotor Company and with several others. Q. You have negotiated hut you haven't actually bought any- thing, have you ^ A. Xo. Q. And you haven't actually hought a dollar's worth of any product at all ? A. Yes, I did. Q. Tell me what you have actually houaht and paid for ^ A. I bought for about ten and a half thousand dollars rubber boots. Q. Where are they ? A. Stored horo in TvTew York. Q. Paid for? A.' Paid for. Q. Whom did you buy those f rom ^ .V. I don't reinemliei- the name of the Hrm, but from the checks you will iind out. Mr. Xewton. Q. You ])robably got a receii)t in >(»ur papers? A. Yes. Q. Will you bring me that ? A. Yes. Q. When did you make the purchase; T suppose the receipts will show, probably? A. Yes. it will show. 84 Q. But you have known all the time that under present con- ditions it was impossible for yovi to .ship or deliver to Russia any single articled A. At the time I did make this purchase I had hoped to send a ship. Q. Yes, you had hoped but you have known all the time that you could not actually make a delivery, didn't you. A. Cer- tainly. That is the reason I could not buy for larger amounts. Q. I^ow, you say you opened your Detroit office for the pur- pose of interesting the manufacturers up there ? A. Yes. Q. Was there any purpose in putting at the head of it a doctor ? A. No, but he is a very capable man. Q. He is a lecturer, isn't he ? A. Yes, he lectures sometimes. Q. Weren't you more interested in having a lecturer who would expound your county's rights than you were in making prchases of commodities that were manufactured in Detroit ? A. I was not interested in his being a lecturer, but I was interested in his being first of all a capable man who will handle this job thoroughly, and so he did. Q. He had no special influence Avith any shipping interests, did he ? A. ISTo, but he had quite an interest in Detroit, people in Detroit knew him. Q. Didn't you think that the employment of this doctor there would give a little .standing in the City of Detroit to the Soviet Government ? A. Just to the contrary, Mr. I^ewton. Q. What ? A. Just to the contrary. He made quite a good show in Detroit. Q. I am afraid you don't understand me ; wasn't your purpose in selecting tlie doctor to take charge of the Detroit office to interest the people and get some influence there favorable to your Soviet Government ? A. Well, it is my intention always to interest as many people as possible. Q. I have only made it now as far as the doctor is concerned in Detroit; that was your purpose, wasn't it? A. Oh. yes; to a certain extent it was. Q. Did you ever borrow any money from Dr. Mislig ])ut once ? A. Twice; once $500 and another time a thousand dollars. Q. When did you borrow the $500 ? A. I could not remember the exact dale; maybe a month or two ago. Q. Ever |)ai<1 him anything exee])ting the $500. A. Xo, not yet, it is still due. Q. Did you ever give him a eheck for any sum ? A. Yes, I think as far as I remember, I think I gave him a check for $500. 85 (^. Vuu never u\ve-overnnu^nt i' A. ^'es. (}. It ix'vei- came from anybody liei-e in the I'nited States? A. !Xo. never. Q. How did you receive yiMii' money, did xou receive it ])\ remittance or by x'ash ( A. In cash. (). From your home lioveiaiment ( A. ^ es. The Chairman. — That appears. l!y .Mr. Stevenson: (y .Mr. .Martens, you were asked hy th:' .\t torn(>v-(leneral wlu'ther you had issued any ])asspoi'ts to anyliody ; wliat was your reply ( A. 1 never issued passjxu'ts. Q. Well, instead of issuing ])assports, has it be<'n your custom to give letters to persons wanting to enter Soviet Russia ? A. Well, sometimes, occasionally I have given letters. Q. You have given letters to facilitate certain |jersous leaving this country to enter Soviet Russia, have you not ? A, Yes, sir. i). How many such letters have you issued '( A. AFayb? half a dozen. Q. Not more ( A. Xo, not more. (}. There is to be a meeting of the Third IntermitiomU shortly in Moscow, is there not i A. Xot as far as I know. Q, Are you sure of that ( \. Yes. Q. Well, haven't you as a matter of fact, given letters of intro- duction to .such persons leaving this country as delegates to the Third Internal iomd ^ .\. 1 never have. Q. .\re you sure of that ' .\. .\bsolutely. Q. Who is ('omrade .Minna .1. Dunn' A. .Minna J. l)unn? Well, as far as I remember. T see a ])hotographic co{)y of a letter I issued to a woman by the name of Dunn — sometimes ]:)eople come to us telling me they are going to Soviet Russia, showing me their passports, and I am giving them a letter in place of a vise of the pa.'eople, here in America. Q. Well, have they actually signed contracts with youf A. Some of them have actually signed contracts. Q. How many of them have actually signed contracts? A. I think about a dozen of them, to the amount of twenty million dollars. Q. Would you give us the names of those firms? A. If you wish, I can give you, tomorrow, a full list. Q. All right, 1 wish you would, please. As a nuitter of fact, one of your chief functions here is to seek the recognition of the Soviet government, is it not ? A. Yes. Q. And it is part of your office business to carry on propaganda looking to the recognition of the government, is it not ? A. Yes. Q. And is that what the major portion of your force is engaged in doing at the present time? A. Xo, not the major portion; I should say about 25 per cent of the people are engaged in this kind of work. Q. Well, did you not tell me previously that about 25 per cent of your work was propaganda looking toward the recognition of the Soviet government ? A. Well, what do you call "propaganda" ? 1 mean just now the ])ublicity work of our bureau engaged about 25 per cent — publicity woik — which consists of publication of our ])a])ers under the name of " Soviet Russia '' and the matter of attending to statements of the press, and so forth. Q. Well, is not the purpose of the ''Soviet Ilussia" to impress upon the American people that the Soviet form of government is a satisfactory and excellent foi'in of govcrnincnt. A. ^'es, it is. (^. An ftdiii rp-Stale. 1 suggest in view of the request of Mr. Martens tiiat we go into executive session 1o discuss the request. 1 should prefer Wednesday or Thursihiy. 96 The Attorney-General.— Would the 4:th of December be as con- venient to you as Monday ? The Witness. — The fourth is all right. The Attorney-General. — That would give you three more days if the Committte considers your request favorably. I am doing that so that we will have that date in mind. Some of the mem- bers of the Committee are busy men and they have appointments for early in the week. The Witness. — All right. (The Committee then went into executive session.) (After executive session the following occurred.) The Chairman. — Mr. Martens, the C^ommittee have been very anxious to get this work along as fast as possible, and we hoped to conclude with you as near as possible to-day. You have come here and made a very respectful and most sincere request for an adjournment. We cannot, owing to our engagements, adjourn until next Monday, but I think it is the sense of the entire Com- mittee to be absolutely fair to you and to everyone else who comes before us, and if it is agreeable to you and you desire, your exam- ination can stand adjourned until the 4th of Decemlier at 10:30 o'clock, and you will be present ? The Witness.- — Yes, sir. The Attorney-General. — Tliat is a week from to-morrow. The Witness. — The 4th of December. The Chairman. — Is that agreeable to you ? The Witness. — Yes, sir. The Chairman. — Then we will suspend your examination until December 4lli, at 10:.30 a. m. 07 MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES City Hall, City of New Yoek, Thursday, December 4, 1919. The Committee met pursuant to adjournment. Frese7it: Assemblyman Martin (Vice-Cliairman), Senator Mull an, Senator Boylan, Assemblyman Pellet, Assemblyman Burr, Assemblyman MeElligott, Senator Walters. Appearances: Hon. Charles D. Newton, AttorneyiGeneral, Hon. Samuel E. Berber, Deputy Attorney-General, Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel, Hon. Frederick R. Rich, S|)cci:il l)o|uity Attorney-General, ^Ir. Charles A. Hotalinii-, Serc;eant-at-Arius. (The Committee wont into executive session.) The Chairman.- — The Attplication and desired to thoroughly go into the matter before rendering his opinion. lie granted no temporary stay and this Commitlee is not stayed at this time from further examining the witness Alartens. In view of tlie fact, however, 4 98 the motion is not yet decided, the Attorney-General feels that it is ethically proper to suspend the examination of the witness Martens until Mr. Justice Greenhaum shall have decided the luotion now pending Iwforo him. I understand that His Honor will probably decide the motion on ]\Ionday. I, therefore, sug- gest, if it meet with the approval of the Chairman of the Com- mittee, that some day next week be fixed for the examination of the witness Martens, but that we proceed this morning with such other witnesses as we have available at this time. The Chairman. — Well, that seems to be the consensus of opin- ion of the Committee, that we follow the suggestions of the Attorney-General with regard to the witness Martens, and that his examination be put down for the 11th at 10:30, if that is agreeable to the Committee. I think we all agree on that ; so the further examination of the witness Martens is set down for Thurs- day, December 11th, at 10:30 a. m. Is Mr. Martens here? Mr. Martens. — Yes. The Chairman. — Well you please bear that in mind, Mr. Martens, Thursday, December 11th, at 10:30? We will continue the examination of the doctor, if he is here. Dr. Mislig, you may sit here. 99 MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES City Hall, City of New York, Thursday, December 11, 1919. The Committee met pursuant to recess (11:15 a. m.) Present : Assemblyman Martin, Vice-Chairman ; Senator Mull an, Assembl;^Tnan Pellett, Senator Walters, Assemblyman McElligott, Assemblyman Burr. Ajypearances: Hon, Charles T). Newton, Attorney-General; Hon. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General ; Archibald E, Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel. Mr. Charles A. Hotaline;, Serffeant-at-Arms. The Chairman. — The Committee will convene. Are you ready now, Mr. Berger? Mr. Berger. — Yes. The Chairman. — Are you ready, General? The Attorney-General. — Yes. The Chairman. — Is Mr. Martens here ? Assemblyman Pellett. — Yes, he is here. LuDwio C. A. K. Martens, having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testified as follows: The Chairman.— Mr. :Martens, yon liave aln^a.ly l)e('n sworn? The Witness. — Yes. The Chairman.— Well, ])ror'e('d. 100 Air. Berger. — 1 otFer in evidence a copy of the opinion of Mr. Justice Greenbaum, dated December 9, 1919, this being a re- print. The Chairman. — Keceived. (Copy of opinion of Mr. Justice Greenbaum, dated December 9, 1919, referred to, received in evidence and marked Exhibit No. 346 of this date.) The exhibit is as follows: " Matter of Martens. — The application above mentioned moves on its own aifidavit for an order to cancel a subpoena duces tecum issued by a joint Legislative Committee and heretofore served upon him and to restrain and enjoin tliat committee ' from issuing any other or further subpa?na, order or direction requiring the said L. C. A. K. Martens to appear before that Committee or the Attorney-General of the State of New York, or any other person or body, and to produce any books, papers, documents and correspondence with the government of the Russian Socialistic Federal Soviet Republic, or to he examined concerning the same and for such further and other relief as the court may deem proper.' The moving papers contain a copy of a resolution adopted by the Legislature of the State of New York pro- viding for the appointment of a joint committee of the Sen- ate and Assembly to investigate the scope, tendencies and ramifications of seditious activities in the community desir- ing to accomplish the overthrow of the government of this State, and to report the result of its investigations to the Legislature, to the end that it may enact ' such legislation as may be necessary to protect the government of the State.' The resolution empowers the Committee inter alia ' to compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of books and papers * * * and shall have power to sit any- where within the State, and shall otherwise have all the powers of a legislative committee, as pro- vided in the legislative law, including the adoption of rules for the conduct of these proceedings.' The motion papers are also accompanied with a copy of the subpana duces tecum served upon the applicant, in which it is expressly stated that the applicant was called as a witness 101 "to tostifv luicl fiive ovidoncc in a certain investigation now pending- of seditions activities within the State of New York.' The respondent, the Leuishitive Committee, through its counsel, chaHenges the right of the a])plicant to apply to this court in a snmmarv manner l>v athchivit either to set aside the snh})(rna or to grant the injunction as asked for. Tlie attention of the court has not heen called by the applicant to any authority in the code of civil procedure or elsewhere which would entitle him to the relief sought by means of a summary motion upon his affidavit. It does not appear that there is any action pending in this court by the applicant against the committee, or that this proceeding is made pur- suant to any provision of the code of civil procedure. The resolution expressly empowers the Legislative Committee to issue subpoenas. Section 854 of the Code also authorizes the issuance of a subpoena under the hand of the Chairman of the Committee, which appears to have been done in the matter under review. The subpoena by its terms shows that the purpose of the examination of the applicant was strictly in accordance with the scope of the inquiry which the Com- mittee was empowered to conduct. The counsel for the appli- cant justifies the motion by reason of the provisions of sec- tion 867 of the code of civil procedure, and particularly that portion of it which provides as follows: 'At any time after service of such a subpoena or order the witness may obtain, upon such a notice as the judge, referee or othei' officer prescribes, an order relieving him wholly or partly from the obligations imposed upon him by the subpoena or the order for production, upon such terms as justice requires touching the inspection of the book or any portion thereof, or taking a copy thereof or extracts therefrom or otherwise.' A study of that section clearly indicates that it refers only to a trial or hearing pending in a court, in which case an order may be made by the judge or by a referee duly ap- pointed in the cause, relieving the witness from the obliga- tions imposed u]>on him by the sub]Hrna, or to a special pro- ceeding pending out of court before an officer, in which case such an order may be made by the officer or referee. ]M ore- over, it will be observed that that section refers only to a ' book of account ' and to no other |)apers. The motion innst be denied. Settle oi'der on notice. 102 " Van DeWeghe v. Director-General of Railroads ; Twohill V. Markowitz ; Lombarcli v. Kalbach ; Gottfried v. Same ; Whittaker v. 42d St., &c., Iv'y; Pedersen v. Xelson^ (2) ; Obstgarten v. Friedman ; York v. Third Ave. RR. ; Kava- naugli V, Same ; Gluek v. Union R'y ; Elms v. Weinstein ; Kruhl V. Dry Dock, i:e., RR. ; C^aleb v. Third Ave. RR. (2) ; Calisse v. N. Y. R'ys ; Crawford v. 42d St., frc, RR. ; Kal- bach V. Kalbach ; Greene v. Director-General of Railroads ; Brandt v. Union Ry."' By Mr. Stevenson: Q. Mr. Martens, you have been sworn i A. Yes. Q. After the ]!^ovember revolution of 1917, when the Russian Communist Party assumed control of the government, did they not alh)w the greatest freedom of speech to the press and in the Assem- bly in Russia ? A. Yes, they did. Q. And subsequent to that time, were there elections held for a Constituent Assembly ? A. Yes. Q. And were those elections held throughout the entire terri- tory under the control of the Soviets ? A. Y"es. Q. About how long a period was occupied in those campaigns for those elections ? A. I think a couple of months. Q. And were delegates chosen during those campaigns for members of the constituent assembly ? A. Yes, they were. Q. And what were the various ))arties that ran candidates for that assembly ? A. The three main ])arties: One, so-called, the Bolsheviks; the other the Social Revolutionists; the other, the ]\Iensheviks ; and Constitutioiuil Democrats — four parties. Q. And what was the result of that election ? What were the various proportions of delegates returned to that assembly? A. I don't remember exactly the figures. Tt was approximately 40 ]ier cent Bolsheviks and about as many Social Revolutionists, and tlie rest for the other parties. The (liairman. — Did you say 40 ])e]' cent Bolsheviks? The Witness. — Yes, 40 per cent. By Mr. Stevenson : Q. So that the majority of that assembly constituted other than tlie Bolshevik representatives? A. Nobody constituted a majority. 103 Q. I lueaii a luajurity of tlie delegates were not liolslievik representatives ( A. Yes. Q. Did that assembly ever meet < A. Yes. Q. When did it meet ^ A. In December, 11)17, 1 think. Q. And where did it meet ? A. Petrograd. Q. And was that assembly permitted to sit '^ A. Until a cer- tain time, yes. Q. And then what was done to it ( A. Well, then the Soviets demanded a revolutionary assendily and it was dissolved. Q. It was dissolved? A. '^'es. The Attorney-General. — Al)ont when was that? The Witness. — January, 1018, I thirds; it began in January, 1018. The Attorney-General.— January, 1918? The Witness. — Yes. By Mr. Stevenson: Q. After the dissolution of the Constituent Ass(Mnbly, was 1h(^ same freedom of speech allowed as had been allowed j)revious to that time? A. Yes. Q. It was ? A. Yes. Q. When was the revolutionary tribunal of the press set up ? A. It was set up after the beginning of the intervention. Q. When was that? A. The summer of 1018. Q. When Avas the revolutionary tribunal set up? A. Also the same time. Q. And was that the tinu> when the terror was instituted ( A. It was the time when several of the people were assassinated and when an attempt was made to assassinate Lenine and the People's Commissar. Q. And the purijose of those tribunals was to prosecute ccnintcr revolutionary activities? A. Exactly. Q. And then a party agitating against the Soviets were consti- tuted counter revolutionaries, were they? A. Yes, several parties; one of them was the Amirchists, constituted to ov<>rthrow the gov- ernment was done by the Constitutional Democrats. Q. Were they the" cadets ? " A. Yes. Q. So they were the [)rin<-ij)al parties tliat had been active in the campaign for the C\instiinent .\s«'nibl\, wr'ic they not ( A. Oh, no. 104 Q. Well, the Cadets you meiitioued '. A. The Cadets and Social Revolutionists. Q. Those two parties were treated as counter revolutionists, were they not I A. Yes, and the Anarchists, too. Q. When did you see Mr. Frank P. Walsh last I A. Frank P. Walsh, I saw about three weeks ago. Q. And was at a conference between Mr. Walsh, Mr. Fitz- patrick and yourself? A. No, Mr. Fitzpatrick was not there. Q. Are you sure 'i Was this conference at iMr. Walsh's office '*. A. No. Q. Where did it take placed A. Oh, yes, 1 think it was at Mr. Walsh's office. *^^ Q. Are you certain Mr. Fitzpatrick was not present I A. No, he was not. Q. Well, who was present at the conference that you had w'ith Mr. Frank P. Walsh? A. Well, Mr. Walsh himself and Mr. Nuorteva and I myself. Q. Are you sure there was no one else present at that confer- ence ? A. Oh, Mr. Hourvich. Q. Who else ? A. No one else. Q. No other man present ? A. No, no. Q. Well, where else did you meet ^Ir. Walsh besides his office? A. A couple of days before this conference I met him at his house. Q. At what hotel did you have a conference with Mr. Walsh ? A. I don't remember the name, it Avas somewhere in Park avenue. Q. And who was present at that conference? A. We three. Q. Just you three ? A. Yes. Q. AVhat was the nature — what was the subject of the confer- ence? A. I invited Mr. Walsli to i)articipate, or to act as my counsel. Q. And yuu are certain I'lat Mr. John Fitzpatrick was not present at either of these conferences ? A. I am certain. Q. The only subject wliich you discussed with Mr. Walsh was whether he would be your counsel or not ? A. Yes. If another person was present it was Mr. Recht. I forgot about him. Mr. Recht was present also. Q. Are you sure there were not any other persons present ? A. No, nobody else. Q. Can you fix the date of that conference ? A, I think it was around November 20th, I am not sure about the date, but some- where around there. lo:. Q. Vou ar(! rcfcrrini;' now to the ('(iiifcriMicc at liis otlicc^ A. His office and liis lionic, liccaiisc at liis hoiiic. we wci'c al)out twi) day.s iK'fore the conference at liis office. Q. So vou would sav one of these confei'<'n(es was alxuit the ISth of Novenihei'^ A. ^'c's, oi' one may have heen the LH)th of November, and the other about the I'-'nd of >s'oveml)er, Q. Vou have staled that one of the principal businesses of your office was to counteract thv> false iin])ressions which are being given of Soviet Russia ( A. \'es, sir. Q. And how do yt)u go about it ^ A. 1 don't understand your question, Air. Stevenson. Q. AVhat methods do you employ ( A. We are pul)lishing a j)aj)er under the name of Soviet Ihusia. It is a we(4dy and con- sists of about 1^4 to 'V2 pages of information. Q. And do you publish in that pap«'r docuiaents received from Russia i A. Yes, sometimes. Q. And original articles by persons that you select to describe conditions in Russia ^ A. Yes, yes. Q. What other nu'thods do you employ^ A. Well, that is the only method I am (Muploying for this purpose. Q. Well, you make addresses yourself on this subjects A. Well, very seldom; sometimes. Q. Where have you rec(Mitly r.ddrv-'ssed audiences on the subject of Soviet Russia < A. The last time T addiwssed was the Tth of Xovemlxu-, here in Xew York. i). And before what organization^ A. I'ulilic meetings arran-sed ( A. i was invited to speak at meetings of the Socialist Party. Q. Were you invit(d to .-])eal< at lueetings of the Conununist Parly < A. Yes, 1 was. (}. Did you acce|)t ^ A. ^'es. 1 (lipt. Q. .\nd vou were prevented^ .\. The me. 'ling was called oil. (}. That was after Xovembei' sth ^ A. Xovember Oth, 1 thiid<. {}. Was it on a Sunday (vcniiiu^ A. .\o. I lirnd< it was on .Monday. (}. A)ul whef" was that ' \. Somewluic in Drooklyii. as far as 1 remember. Q. What was the nature «d' your addres.ses? .\. My addresses refer exclusively to conditions in Russia. Q. .\nd vou de.M-ribc ilie W(uki!ii',s of \\w Soviet reiiime'^ A. ^■es. IOC (^. Do iiieiubcr.s of your stall' address iiieotings? A. Some- times. Q. Do tliey address meetings without your knowledge and con- sent ^ A. No, only with my knowledge and consent. Q. So that any meetings which they address are approved by you ? A. Yes. Q. Had Mr. jSTuorteva made any i)uhlic addresses recently?- A. Yes, he made some. Q. Where? A. Here in Kew York. Q. Well, he has made some addresses outside of New York, has he not i A. I think in Newark once, that's about all as far as I remember. Q. Well, has be made anv addresses in Pennsylvania recently? A. No. Q. When did he return from Pennsylvania '( A. I don't think he was evei* — during the last few months he has not been in Pennsylvania. Q. Not in Pennsylvania in the last few months ? A. No, Q. Who from your office has been in Pennsylvania in the last few months ? A, Nobody. Q. Nobody at all? A. Nobody at all. Q. What other methods have you found useful to employ ? A. For what purpose ? Q. For the propaganda of Soviet Russia ? A. That is the only method, giving statements ir, the ])ress also from time to time. Q. Well, have you any cori'espondents in Washington ? A. No. Q. Or persons who act for you in W^ashing-ton ? A. From time to time 1 am sending myself some from our staff to Washing'ton. Q. Well, don't vo.u have anvbodv in Washington to act for you? A. No. Q. Well, do yon know if any of your employees have anyone in W^ashington ? A. Any of my employees having somebody in Washington ? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. Have you ever made any request for information respecting persons who might be favorable to the recognitioii of Soviet Russia in Washington? A. Oh, certainly. T try to find out everything concerning the vi(nvs of the United States Government. Q. I see. Well, what methods have you employed to find that out ? A. Ofteii T send some of my staff to Washington. 0. Whom do you usually send ? A. On a couple of occasion^ I scut l\lr. Clark and Mr. Nuorteva. 107 \ly the Al tni'ii('\-('i('iicr;i (). \ (HI iiKMii liv ilic I'liilcd Slates (idvci'iniu'ut the iihmhIx'I's of ConjiTcss ( A. \'('>;. (}. And iiicinhcrs of the State D'c^lJartiiuMif ^ A. Yes. I>v Mr. Stevenson: (J. \'ou weio saving wlioni von sent. A. Ves. sii-; Mr. .Vuor- t( va, Mr. Clark and JMr. Dudand. Q. How do thev i)'o about ascertaining the sentiments of the xarious members^ How do they go abont to ascertain the senti- ments of the various uieinbors of our government? A. Well, how ir is usually done, they have friends, acquaintances, talks; that is the way the matter is gotten at. Q. Well, arc they charged with the duty of bringing informa- tion to any of these members of the government? A. No. Q. They have never done so? A. We are sending to every niendier of the government, Congi'ess and Senate, our publications and statements iwo regularly sent to every one of them. Q. What would be your object in ascertaining the attitude of \arious representatives and officers of the government? A. You can easily imagine, Mr. Stevenson, it would interest us pro- foundly, every change of sentiment and every change of relation between all these questions, they interest us and we want to find out. Q. Well, what do you do with the information which you gather respecting these matters? A. Well, we keep it to ourselves. Q. Do you make reports to your home government? A. Oh, yes, certainly. (). And these reports contain statements of the sentiments of tlie various officers of our government? A. \^es. (}. Are those re|)orts detailed? A. ^fore or less. Q. And you kec]) copies of these reports ? A. Y"es, I do. Q. And do the conununications which you receive from your home government contain any references to your reports respect- ing these matters ( A. Well, to a very small extent, but not much. Q. And do they contain instructions for you to proceed? A. W(>11, T have more or less general powers to proceed as the situation allows. Q. Has part of your work been to create sentiment here for the withdrawal of .\nieriean trooj)s from Ru'jsia ? A. Partly for 108 the lifting of the; blockade, recognition of the Soviet government, and as a result of it the Avithdrawal of troops from Russia. B_v Mr. Stevenson : Q. Does your commercial department suggest to business men' to urge the recognition of Soviet Russia ? A. ISTo, our commer- cial department suggests to business men to ask the State Depart- ment for export licenses. Q. But it is never hinted to anv' of your business correspond- ents that they should urge the recognition of Soviet Russia''^ A. No. How could they do it ? By Mr. Berger: Q. Mr. Martens, I believe you stated at an earlier hearing that you were interested solely in the troubles of citizens of Russia in this country ; is that right ^ A. Yes, sir. Q. And you are not particularly concerned with the troubles or woes of parties who are not citizens ? A. No, not at all. Q. Well, then, will you kindly explain your conference with Mr. Larkin yesterday 'i A. Who is Mr. Larkin — Q. You know Mr. Larkin, do you not ? A. Yes. Q. Will you tell the Committee whether your conference with him had any connection with the indictment for criminal anarchy ? A. Not the slightest. Q. Will you tell us what it was ^ A. He brought one of his friends to me who wanted to shake hands with me. Q. Did you, directly or indirectly, put up any part of the bail in the Larkin easel' A. Not a cent. Q. ^Ir. Reeht is your attorney ? A. Yes. Q. Charles Recht '^ A. Yes. Q. Will you state whether it was by your direction, or with your :i]»[)roval, that Mr. Recht, the counsel for your Bureau, .'ippeared for Larkin and Gitlow'^ A. I have not the slightest relation to the Larkin and Gitlow case. It is purely Mr. Recht's business and I have not the slightest connection with it. Q. Well, the matter was discussed, though, was it not '^ A. It was on several occasions nu'utioned but I did not discuss any situation arising from the transactions of Communists or the Communist Labor Party. It does not concern me absolutely. Q. Well now that was not the first time that Mr. Larkin called to see vou. vesterdav ? A. Oh. all tojrether, two or three times. 109 Q. What was the lirst tinie^ When was the first time^ A. Long ago. Q. How long ago. A. Maybe tivr or six months ago. Q. And when was the second time ( A, Oh, say about at that lime; but L did not see him for at least three or four months. Q. Well, you saw him between the time of his arrest on the charge of criminal anarchy, yesterday, did you not — A. No. Q. Did anyone see you in his behalf^ A. No. (^. Vou recall the circumstances of some eighteen or nineteen men being arrested, about a luonth ago, charged with ci-iminal auarchy, and for whom Mr. Ivccht appeared? A. Yes. i). What was yoiu' iutcrcst iu that uuitter ^ A. No interest at all. 1 do not know I he men a. id llu'v never apjK^aled to nu- for any assistance. Q. Well, sonu^ of them arc Jiussiau citizens? A. I under- stand so, Q. Were you not interested in their cases ^ A. Well, I have too uuu'h to do to be interested in everything. 1 wouhl gladly rend(-i- them assistance if I could. Q. Well, is it not a fact, Mr. Martens, that some of those men aj)pealed to you for aid ( A. X(K sii'. Q. Not one of them? A. Xo. not one of them. (}. And do you know that Mr. Recht deposited $500 as part of the bail in the Larkiu case? A. 1 (\i) not. (.}. Do you know that to be a fnct. A. No. (). Did you have anything to do with that $500? A. Nothing at all. (^. ,N<>t tlirectlv oi indirectly^ A. Not directly or indii'ectly. Q. Or anyone in your Bureau ? A. Or anyone in my Bureau. Q. Will yon state positively that it was not after conference with y(»u that Mr. Recht a])peared for those eighteen or nineteen men. A. Alisolutely i)ositively, ^Mr. Berger. (^. Well, now, you stated t(t us that it was the ])olicy of the Bureau, and of your legal department in particular, to give aid and assistance to citizens of Russia who were in difficulties here? A. Yes. Q. You have not reversed that jiolicy, have you? A. No, not at all. Q. And in spite of that policy not having been reversed, you sav that you did not in any way give assistance to any of these people? A. No. no Q. -Neitliei' bj advice or couu^cl or liiiancial assistance, or in any other way i A. Xo. Q. Are you in touch witii the leaders of the Communist Party in this country i A. What do you call '' in touch? " Q. In conference? A. No. Q. Are you in correspondence with them? A. No. Q. Do you know them? A. 1 know one or two of them. Q. Whom do you know, Mr. Martens ? A. Well, I met Git- low ; I met Larkin, too. Once I spoke on the same platform as Mr. Ruthenberg. Q. Where was that, the Madison Square Garden? A. Madi- son Square Garden. Q. June 20th ? A. Yes. Q. Do you know any others ? A. No. Q. Cohen? A. ,^"0. Q. Fraina? A. Yes, I think 1 met him on several occasions. Q. Y^our sym])athies are with their doctrines, to be perfectly frank, Mr. Martens^ A. Well, to be perfectly frank, I have not seen their program. Maybe they make mistakes. I cannot judge. All I can tell you is I have al)solutely no connection with the (Vmimunist Party. Q. But you know" their general plan and scope and ideas on which the C^ommunist Party of America is founded ? A. Why. certainly. I suppose it is the same as the Russian Communist Party. Q. So, being the same as the Russian Communist Party, naturally your sympathies are with them? A. Yes. Q. And you believe, do you not, that the principles the Com- munist Pai-ty of America advocates in this country ought to be carried out in this country, do you not, to be perfectly frank? A. No, I would not answer that. To be perfectly frank with you, Mr. Berger, I would not answer yes or no before I see and before I study the program of the Communist Party of America. I did not study it and have never had a chance to do it, and so I cannot answer you yes or no. Q. You know, though, that they are founded on the same prin- ciples ; that it is founded on the same principles as the principles of the Russian Communist Party ? A. Yes. Q. Well, now, assuming that they are founded on the same principles — which I may tell you they are — do you, or do you not, s^mipathize with their views? A. Well, every .Socialist sym- ]>athizes with every other Socialist. Ill i}. Will vou hv tijK'cilic^ J am iiskin<; vou a direct question. Assuming that the principles of the Coinniunist Party of America are substantially the same as those of the Communist Party of Russia, do you believe that those principles should be carried out in this countiy ? N'ow, that is a plain question and is susceptible of a yes or no answer. A. Every party has certain principles that they wish to carry out. It is the desire of the Communist Party to carry out their principles. Q. You have not answered the question. A. What is the question ? Mr. Berger. — Will you please read the question again? (Questioi' read by reporter.) A. No, I cannot answer yes or no. Q. Well, what is the best answer you can make as to your belief, your sympathies ? A. I can answer that everyone who professes certain, principles ought to carry them out. Q. Well, now, of course A. Eut the Communist Party of America does not concern me. Q. What are your sympathies in that direction ? Are you inimical to them ? Are you against them ? A. No, T am not. Q. Well, then, are you for them? A. Well, I am neither for nor against. Q. You are not against ? A. Xo. Q. Are you for them ? A. T am not against them. Q. I know you are not against them; are you for those prin- ciples ? A. Ml'. Berger, do you want to pin me down ? Q. I want to pin you dovvn to an answer to my question. A. The Communist Party, or Communist Liberal Party of America, does not concern me absolutely. T refuse to answer anything regarding that pai'ty. They do not concern me at all. Q. But you have spoken on the same platform as the leaders of that party? A. Yes, I did. Q. Xow, you believe that the principles of the Communist Party are good for Russia, do you not ? A. Certainly. Q. And you believe they ought to be carried out in Russia? A. Certainly. Q. You rdso l^elieve that those principles ought to be extended throughout the whole world, do yon not ? A. Well, that is a matter for the world to decide. Q. T am asking for vour belief. We are not interested in the belief of the world. T want your belief. A. ^fr. Berger, you want to connect me with this propaganda. 112 Q. I am nut trviiig tu do aiivtliiiig of tlie kind. We want to get your virnvs. You are an intelligent man and we want to get your views. A. Mr. Berger, the last time you stated I admitted advocating a revolution in the I'nited States of America. Q. We stood on the record. To get back to the question : You believe that those ])rineiples would be good for the rest of the world as well as for Russia ( A. Yes. Q. And the United States is a part of the rest of the world, is it not ? A. Yes. Q. 'Well, then, do you believe that they would be good for the interests of this country and the i)eople of this covmtry ? A. I do not only believe, I know. 1 know that every country in the world will be a believer in Socialistic principles. That is a matter of knowledge. Q. That is simply an o])inion '( A. ISTo, it is a matter of knowl- edge. Q. Are you possessed of prescience ? A. No, not at all. Q. You do not know that that is going to occur ; you simply believe in it ? A. No. Socialism will conquer the world. T know it. Q. And you are doing your share to help conquer this par- ticular portion of it !* A. 1 am doing my share to help Soviet Russia. Q. liow, will you state more fully what the substance of the conference between you and Larkin was ? A. ll^othing at all. It was no conference at all. Sim])ly a friend of Larkin's wanted to shake hands with me, wanted to see me; and he came in and stayed about five minutes in my office. Q. You mean Larkin brought this friend and presented him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was the friend ? A. I have forgotten his name, but I think I have his card on my table. Q. Is he an American citizen ? A. I^o. Q. A Russian ? A. English. Q. Did you send greetings to the fifth convention of the con- ference of Russian branches of the Communist party, in this city, between Augiist 20th and August 28th? A. 'ko. Q. Well, did you send greetings to any convention of the Rus- sian branches of the Communist party, in this city? A. N'o, I did not. Q. You did not? A. N'o. 113 (^. If there arc eiitrit's in the niimiic l)ook of this ])aiticular organization to that etfcct, arc those entries incorrect < A. 1 do not rememl)er. Q. If there is an entrv in the iiiiinile hook of this organization tiiat you sent greetings lo them, is that incorrect? A. Sometimes I am receiving greetings fi-oiu all kinds of branches, conferences and so on; and nsnally 1 am answering a sim])le h»ttor and send- ing greetings; so that may Ix- the case. (). ^'ou have been kept (piitc fully informed, have you not, ])y .Mr. Recht, concerning ilic various steps taken in the cases of the men recently arrested in I his city ^ A. No, I have not had time to discuss it. Q. Well, what have you liccn so busy with. Mi. Martens, if that is not an impertinent iiucsiion^ A, Well, ]\[r. Berger, you gave me a lot of trouble. Q. T^ot all the tiiuc. .\. Well, still ] have my other business. Q. In what direction i A. My usual business and correspond- ence with different comnHTcial liiiiis. and attending to office busi- ness. Tt takes my time. (}. ^'ou are in sympailiy. arc yon not. .Mr. .Martens, with the l)rinciples expressed in the call for the Third Tnternational ? A. Which do YOU mean, Mr. Berger? Q. Well, as I understand, there is only one call for the Third International. A. Which one ^ Q. AVell, the call, the call sent out by — A. By whom? Q. Your friends in Soviet Bnssia ? A. Well, there Avere nuuiy calls, Mr. Berger; T do not kiu)w wliich one you mean. Q. Tn reference to the call that contained the words, sub- stantially, to the efi'ect that the bourgeoisie must be disarmed and the proletariat armed. Tliat is the one that refers to all the workers of the world, does it not ( A, Well, Mr. Berger, why should we discuss it? T really do not know. It is something F cannot discuss. Assemblyman l)Uii\--May 1 ask a question? The Chairman. — Yes. jMr. Burr. — Did Mr. Walsh accept your invitation to become your counsel ? The Witne!*s, — Yes. Mv. Burr. — Did he acce]ti that invitation? The Witness.— Yes. 114 By Mr. Berger : ^ Q. And in what particular matter was that ? A. In the matter of this Committee, and in general. The Attorney-General. — You mean by that as to your rights before the Committee? The Witness. — Yes. The Attorney-General. — Did he give you any opinion on the subject? A. Yes, he expressed it. The Attorney-General. — Any written opinion ? The Witness. — iSTo, no written opinion. The Attorney-General. — Was the subject similar to that dis- cussed by Mr. Justice Greenbaum, discussed with him ? A. Yes. The Chairman. — Well, I suppose this power that you have here from your so-called government, is general in its scope, is it not ? That is, you are largely acting under your own judgment ? The AVitness. — I do not understand. The Chairman. — I say, you are largely acting under your own judgment ? A. Yes. The Chairman. — The general instructions that you have is to create a sentiment in this country favorable to the peculiar form of government that there is in Russia ? A. Yes. The Chairman. — And, of course, you put that forward in its most attractive way? A. Yes. By Mr. Berger : Q. You said that you did not send any greetings to this con- vention of the Communist party ; is that right ? A. I say maybe I have sent them, but if I sent them it was only in answer to some sort of greetings from them. Q. You do not recall what the substance of that greeting was ? A. I do not recall, no, Q. But it was substantially an expression of sympathy and approval with the ideas of the Communist party ? A. Probably — no; general thanks for their greetings, or a wish for their suc- cess. 115 Q. You expre^sscd a hope that tlio.v WDiild bo successful in their endeavors? A. Probably. Ej the Attorney-General : Q. Well, vou would expect to oet help, in your cases, from the * AT Communist party, Avould you not, j\Ir. Martens^ A. JNo. Q. You would not expect any helj) from them? A. No. Q. You would expect sympathy from them? A. Y^es. Q. And if you expected to find sympathy anywhere in this country, it would be through that ])arty and from them? A. Through every party I work with, their sympathies and help. Q. I mean" the sympnthi(^s of the Communist party. A. The Communist party and Socialists and Liberals. Q. And you would exi)ect to iintl sympathy from them before you would from any other parties in this country?^ A. No, I have sympathies from many liberals ; also from the Socialist party. They have on numy occasions exi)ressed their sympathy; and also from the public. By Mr. Berger: Q. Who is Krasnoil", in Soviet Russia, or some name approxi- nuiting that '. A. I don't know. (^. \Vho is Voldarski ? A. Voldarski was one of the People's Commissariat who was assassinated in PetrogTad. Q. And he originally came from Philadelphia, did he not? A. I don't know whether he was in Philadelphia, but I know he was in New Y^ork. Q. Do you know his other name? A. 1 don't know. g. Was it Gohhnan '. A. 1 don't know. (,). Who was Shatoii'^ A. Chief of police in Petrograd. (}. And what are his functions there? A. Chief of police. (^. What ar(i his duties? A. What the duties of chief of police are. Q. Xew York City ^ A. Yes. Q. Do vou know anything about his police record in New York City^ A. Xo. i\. What particular qiialitications did Shatotf have ^ A. 1 und'erstand he is a very en.Mgetic man and is a first-class chief of police in Petrograd. (^ He was a member of th<- I. W. W. in this country, was he not '. A. Yes. T think he was. 116 Q. And you say tliiit he is energetic in the carrying out of his duties ? A. Yes. The Chairman. — Now, is it true that a man can be a citizen of the Russian Soviet Government, as it exists to-day, and retain his citizenship here in the United States at the same time ? The Witness. — Well, ^Jr. Clniirman, you see the situation is this: During the Czar's government, a Russian citizen who he- came an American citizen did not lose his Russian citizenship. The Attoi'ney-General. — Is that true now ? The Witness. — It is not now. Every foreigner who came to Russia, who settles in Russia and believes in citizenship, becomes a citizen ; but that does not relate to our American laws. I do not know how the situation will be in America. By Mr. Berger: Q. Now, just to go back to the Shatoff matter for a minute. Will you tell us in detail what his duties are in Petrograd ? A. I do not know what his duties are. Q. Well, you are ]jretty well informed on conditions there, are you not? A. Certain y. As far as I know, Mr. Shatotf is a very good chief of police. He suppressed every crime in Petrograd. Petrograd is now the safest city in the world. American people coming from Petrograd say it is much safer than New York, Chicago, or other American cities; and they claim it is due to the energies of Shatoff. Q. W^ell, is it particularly safe for the so-called counter revo- lutionists there \ A. Absolutely. Q. What did he do to the counter revolutionists to make it so safe for them % A. We have our regular court proceedings and every criminal caught in Russia is tried and given every opportu- nity to defend himself; so they are not killed or hanged, as you imagine, without a trial. They are tried in a very regular way, and if they are executed, it is for something very substantial. By the' Chairman: Q. How are the courts created ? A. The courts are created by elections. The judges are elected. IIT J>v .Mr. Leiger: Q. Are they exocuteJ for crimes dthcr tliaii murder^ A. Plot- ting against the government, treachery and lliose kinds of crimes. Q. And a counter revohition is a crime punishabh' by death, is it not ( A. A counter i-evolution is. There are all kinds of penalties. Q. You mentioned that as among the crimes i A. ^s'o, I did not, Mr. Berger. A counter revolution is — there are thousands of crimes — a counter revolution may consist of assassinating any one of the People's Commissars; or a counter revolutionary act may consist of ])rotiteering, or something of that kind. For one crime the |XMialty may be one or two years in prison, or may be a month or two. Q. What was the i)articular crime of the 1,500 Commissars who were executed i A. Treachery. Q. What kind of treachery ^ A. Giving information to the enemy, chietly. Q. Well, not all of them did that? A. Chiefly, I don't know every case, Mr. IJerger. (^. Some of them meix'ly spoke and agitated against the Bol- sheviki ( A. No, for speaking and agitating nobody was executed in Soviet Russia. Q. Will you identify the Mi'. Frank i'. Walsh you refer to ^ Which Mr. Frank P. VValsh was that ? A. Will I identify him '. Q. Yes so that wo know who if was. A. 1 cannot understand you. (}. Where is his office? A. Somewhere down town. Q. In Xew York City? A. Yes. Q. And has he any official position of any kind that you know n[-( A. Xo. Q. You don't know whether he has or not ? A. I don't know. (). Do you know whether he did have any official position { A. I know be was the past several years the head of a committee in Congress to investigate the trusts here in America, that I know. Q. And that is the same ^fr. Walsli who was on the War J.abor Hoard ( A. That is right. The Attoi'ney-General. — Mr. Chairman. 1 have been so occu- pied since the former hearing that I have not had time to go over the record of questions which T»'ere asked ]\Ir. ^fartens and which he has declined to answer. I tliink we can save time il" we take 118 our recess at this point and in the meantime tho^^e questions will he prepared. The Chairman. — Will it be agreeable to you, Mr. Martens, to be back here, say at two o'clock? The Witness. — Yes, sir. The Chairman. — Then we will take a recess now until two o'clock this afternoon. (Whereupon at 12:15 p. m, the committee took a recess to two o'clock of the same day.) AFTER RECESS (Prior to the open session, the Committee held an executive session.) The Committee reconvened at 3 :30 P. M. LuDWiG C. A. K. Maetens, resumed, and testified as follows : By the Attorney-Greneral : Q. Mr. Martens, you were served with a subpoena duces tecum to produce certain documents in your possession. Do you remem- ber when that was ? A. Here is the subpoena here. Q. Can you tell me when that was seiwed upon you ? A. The 14th day of ^November. Q. 1919 ? A. 1919, yes. Q. And in pursuance of the subpoena, you did produce the check book? A. Yes. Q. Did you produce the bank books? A. No, the check books contain everything. Q. You were asked to produce books of account. Have you produced any books of account ? A. No, but I can produce them at any moment. Q. You can produce those and will produce them ? A. Yes. Q. You were asked to produce — that is, you were subpoenaed to produce, letters and other papers received by you and your Bureau from Soviet Russia ? A. Yes. Q. Have you produced any of such letters or papers? A. No, I did not. 119 (^. Did v(Ui li;i\(' letters iiiid papers in ymir pnssessioii. rroiii Soviet Russia, at tlie time of the service of this siihpoeiia ^ A. Vos, sir. Q. You have them yet '. A. ^'es, sir. Q, And will you now pi'odiice them '. \. No, sir. (^ Why^ The Witness. — Mr. Chairman. aUow me t(» make a statement in connection with this 'I The Attorney-General. — (^. ^'es. 1 have asked you why pur- ])osely in oi'der to give you an op|tortunity to make a statement. The Witness. — I desire to state the reasons why I decline to |)roduce my correspondence with the i;overnment of Soviet Russia and to answer any questions rehiting to the same. r am the duly accredited representative of the de fucto govern- ment of Soviet Russia. A dc facto government has been defined as '' such as exists after it has e.\])elled the regularly constituted authorities from the seats of powei' in the public offices and established its owm functionaries in their places, so as to represent in fact the sovereignty of the nation." (Moore's Digest of Inter- national Law, Volume 1, page 44, quoting from Williams against Bruffy, 96 IT. S. 176, pages 185-186.) It is further said by the same authority that a de facia government enjoys " the rights and attributes of sovereignty . . . independently of all recog- nition.'' (^foore's Digest, \'ol. 1. page 72.) iSTow, it is the acceptiMl ])rinciple of International Law that the correspondence between a foreign government and its representative is privileged. 1 have a])plied to Justice Greenbaum of the New York Suprenu' Court for relief. I have read in tiie newspa])ers that my applica- tion has been denied, Imt as far as I know n(v copy of the order denying my application has Ikhmi served u|)on my counsel. .Vs soon as we are served with a co|)y of the order of Judge Green- baum we intend to take an ap])eal from his (U-der. I have answered all questions pertaining to my owni activity within the State of Xew York: I have produced all my books and correspondence, althongli 1 might have claimed j)rivilege under the principles of International Law. Ihit, to (|uote the language of the late Swretary of State Hay. in a similar matter, a repre- sentative of a foreign govei-nment " cannot lie re<]uired to divulge information which came to him in his olHcial capacity, for that is the exclusive property of his governnu'nt." ( Moore's Digest of 120 Interiiatioual i.aw, \'ol. 5, pages 84-85, (juoting from Sqcretary Hay's letter dated April 17, 1801), iu the matter of Consular Agent Clancy.) I desire to emphasize once more that the reason I decline to answer is not that 1 have anything to conceal but as a matter of ])rinciple; I have no authority to divulge the contents of my cor- respondence with my government. By the Attorney General: Q. Was the paper you have just read prepared by your coun- sel? A. Yes, sir. Q, And prepared for the purpose of presenting here as a legal reason why you need not produce the papers? A. Yes, sir. The Attorney-General. — Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness he directed to produce the pa})ers mentioned in the subpoena, being letters and other papers received by him and his bureau from Soviet Russia, and all co|)ies of letters, documents and other papers sent to him and his Bureau and now under his control, by Soviet Bussia, between the 1st day of Januaiy, 1919, and the date of service of this subpoena — which you said was November what ? The Witness. — November 14th. The Attorney General. — November 14th. The Chairman. — Now, ^Ir. Martens, pursuant to the instruc- tions of thc^ Committee, and in accordance with the powers vested in them, ], as (Uiairman of the Committee, direct you to produce those papers. The Witness.— T am very sorry, ^Tr. Chairman, that T have lo decline. By The .Vttorney-General : Q. ]\ly recollection, ^Ir. ^lartens, is that you told me the other day, that you had issued no pass})orts ? A. No sir. Q. And you now say the same, that you have issued no pass- ports ^ A. No sir. Q. Either to leave this country — to anyone < A. No sir. Q. Or to enalile any agent of Soviet Russia to get from any othei' country into Russia ? A. No. no passports. 121 Q. Have you isisuod any |ja})er at all wliidi would tend to assist am* representative of yon to get hack into Russia ? A. Yes, I have. (^, .Vnd to whom did you issue such a papcM'^ A. 1 addressed them mostly '' To w^lioni it uuiy eoncei-n." (}. And under what dat>> ^ A. l)ill'(n\'nt (Kites; I don't remem- ber, Mr, Ise\\ion. Q. And under what date^ A. 1 )itl'(M'('ut (hitcs, I do not rciuemlxM'. Q. Different dates from January, ItHD ^ A. From March. Q. March, 1919? A. Yes. Q. To whom did you deliver any one of thos(> ])a])ers? A. I am sorry I have to decline. Q. You know the names of sonu* of the jjersons. at any rate, to whom you did deliver those papers? A. Yes. Q. And you could give the Committee the nanu^ of the person if you desired to ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, I ask you to give the name of one o.r more of those persons to whom you have delivered such a paper since March, 1919. A. I have to decline for the same reason. Mr. ]S'ewton. — T ask the Chairman to direct the witness to answer the (piestion. The Chairman. — Under the same instructions from the Com- mittee the Chair directs you to answer the (piestion of the Attor- ney-General. A. T decline. By the Attoi-ney-General : Q. Will you tell me about how many such ])apers you have delivered since ]\Iarch, 1919, ^Ir. Martens? A. Five or six, Q. And you don't call such a |)a|)>'r a passixtrt ( A. Xo. 1 don't. Q. What do you call it? A. .\ rctVrcncc letter. Q. Reference letter ? A. Yes. Q. Now, you testified as I iccall it that there were certain paj)ers or credentials delivered to yon from the Russian Soviet Ciovernnient. delivered j)ers(»nally to yon in Xcw York? A. Yes, sir. Q. l]y messenger ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the tirst of those |)a))ers, as T recall yonr lesti ny, was ahout the middle of March. 1919 ? A. Yes, sir, that is right. Q. Anil they were yonr A. OHieinl credentials, yes. sir. 122 Q. — official credentials advising you that you had been selected i)y (he Soviet Jiussiaii Government as their representative in this country 'i A. Yes, sir, Q. Do you know the name of the messenger who delivered the paper to you? A. Yes, I know hini. Q. Well, who was it 'i A. I decline to answer. i}. The papers were delivered here in New Y'ork ( A. Yes, sir. The Attorney-General, — I ask the Chairman to instruct t^he witness to answer the question. The Chairman, — Under the authority conferred on me as Chairman of the Comanittee, I instruct you to answer the question, Mr. Martens. The Witness, — 1 decline, Mr, Chairman. By the Attorney-General : Q. And is the reason why you decline to give the luuue of the messenger substantially the reason that you have read into the record tins afternoon 'i A. Yes, sir. Q. And to cover it once for all, that is substantially your reason for declining to answer any of the questions that you decline to answer here '( A. That is the only reason, Mr. Attorney -General. Q. That is the only reason ? A. Yes, sir. jQ. I think I asked you the other day if you could produce those credentials. A. As a matter of fact I have produced a copy to Mr. Berger when I was questioned in his office. Q, Y^ou did produce that 'i A. Y'"es, sir, a photographic copy. Q. Well, that is not before this Committee. You are willing to produce a copy of those credentials here to this Committee < A. Y^es, sir. Q. Have you them with you so that they can be marked in evidence now? A. jS^o, 1 have not them, Q, How long would it take you to get them :' A. Oh, an houf I suppose, or two, I could send it tonight, Mr. ISTewton, if vou like, ^ / " The iVttorney-General. — Well, 1 don"t like to have a paper marked in evidence which ycm do not identify here, b<^canse 1 don't want to take cbances. Possibly w(* can send ovi/r to ^Fr. l)(>rger's office and you cau iccoguize llic photogra])li if il i- ju'o- duced hei'c. 123 The \\'itiieiS6. — Yes, 1 gave to j\lr. l>ei-ger onv copy. The Attorney-Geueral. — Well, we will send over and see if we can get it. (A messenger was sent over to Mr. Merger's office, 51 Chambers street, to procure the; copy referred to.) By the Attorney-General: Q. Now, you testified, as 1 recall it that from time to time you are now receiving communications from Soviet Russia in the form of letters and other documents, by special messenger? A. Yes, sir, from time to time. Q. And altout how many of those couuuunications or docu- ments have you received since you received your official notifica- tion of your a})pointment or designation { A. You mean by means of messengers ( Q. Yes. A. About ten times. Q. And have you copies of all the commuuieations and letters, or originals or copies of all the communications'^ A, 1 keep only othcial communications. Q. ^'ou keep only official conuiiunications, and were there ten of those i A. Yes, sir. Q. Those you have in your possession now? A. Y'^es, sir. Q. And can produce them here if you have a mind to ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Xow, will you ])ro(lu('e those ])apers^ A. Xo, I decline to produce tliem. The Attorney-General. — I ask the Chairman to direct the wit- ness to produce those ten communications to which he refers in his testimony. The Chairman. — 1 direct the witness to produce them, and each of thciii. The \\'itness. — 1 decline. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. — The Chair directs the witness to produce the papers referred t»> by the Attorney -General, and each of them. Tlic Witness. — I decline. Mr. Clinirman. 124 Bv the Attornev-General Q, And they are in the form of letters and other documents? A. In the form of letters. Q. Tn the form of letters ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were those ten communications all received hy special nressenger? A. Yes. Q. The same messenger, or different messengers ? A. Different messengers. Q. Were any two of them received hv the same messenger ? A. I— ' Q. Delivered, I mean. Did you receive them from the same messenger, any two of them ? A. !N^o. Q. Can you give the names of the ten messengers who delivered tlie messages ? A. !N'o, sir. Q. Or letters ? A. N"©. Q. You could not give the names of the ten if you wanted to ? A. The names of most of them I could give you. Q. But not all of them ? A. No, not all of them. Q. So you could not give the names of the whole ten if you wanted to ? A. 'No. Q. Now, could you give the names of any of the ten ? A. I decline to. Q. Could you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, I ask you to give me the name of one of them ? A. T decline. The Attorney-General. — I now ask the Chairman to instruct the witness to answer the question. The Chairman. — I so instruct the witness. The Witness. — I decline, Mr, Chairman. By the Attorney-General: Q. Now, Mr. Martens, do these ten letters that were delivered to you, as you have described, contain, in any one of them — did any one of them contain money from the Russian government ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they all contain money? A. Not all, no. Q. How many of them did contain money from your govern- ment, how manv of tlio ton ? A. I think five. 125 (^. Xow, can vou give iiic the names of aiiv one of the five messengers who delivered monev to yon from voiir government? A. I could, yes. Q. Will you give me the name of one messenger who delivered money to you from the Russian government ? A. I decline. TheAttorney-General. — I ask the Cliairmaii to instnict the witness to answer the question. The Chairman. — The Chair instructs yo»i to answer the question. The Witness. — 1 decline, Mr. Chairman. By the Attorney-General : Q. Those deliveries were all made since ]\Iaich, IIU!) ( A. Yes, sir, Mr. A^ewton. Q. Now, do you send a report to your government of the method of the expenditures of any of the moneys that yon receive from them ^ A. Yes. Q. And a written report ( A. A written report, yes. Q. Do you keep a co])y of those reports i A. Yea. Q. Aiid you could produce a c()j)y of those reports if you were inclined to '( A. Y^es, I could. Q. Will you ])roduce any one of them to the Committees! A. I decline. The Attorney-General. — I ask the Chaiiinan to instruct the witness to answer. The Chairman. — You are instructed to ])i()duce the reports required by the Attorney-General. The Witness. — 1 decline, ^Ii'. Chairman. Assemblyman McElligott. — Mr. Attorney-Geneial, are these reports referred to in the suhjKPna ( The Attorney-General. — Of course, i1h' .-ultpoiia is })retty broad, it is general. He is directed to piodiicc all documents, letters and other papei's received by hini or scut by him. A-semblyman McElligott. — 1 see. The Attorney-General. — '' Documents and othei' ))apers .ncy ( A. Yes. Q. What part of Sweden { A. Stockholm. Q. Can you give us a hetter address than that ? A. No, he is well known in Stockhohn ; simi)lv address: *' Mr. Strom, Stock- holm." Q. He is an otiicial ( A. ^'es, he is an official ro])resoiitative of the Soviet Government in Sweden. Q. Do you address him as '" Consul " or "Ambassador'^'' A. A representative. Q. Representative? A. Yes. Q. Now, do you know the name of any person who is in charge of any other agency, through whom you send or receive communi- cations from Soviet Russia ( A. \'es, I know. Q. And will yon give me the name of such persons? A. T could. Q. You said yon could. Now, will yon ? A. No, sir; I decline. The Attorney-General. — 1 ask the Chairman to direct the witness to answer. The Chairman. — The Chair directs the witness to answer the last question and give the namos requested by the Attorney-Gen- eral. What is your answer? The Witness. — T decline. ^Tr. Chairman. Assemblyman McKI]ig<»tt. — Air. Attorney-General, there is a question in th{> minds of some of the members of the Committee as to whether the government of Sweden recognizes Soviet Russia, the present form of government, the alleged form of government. of Soviet Russia. The Witness. — 1 did not get that. Assemhlynnin Mcl^lligott. — Does Sweden recogni/e the |>i'esent form of govei-nment — alleged foi-m of government, in Russia? The Witness. — Well, in Sweden there is an official representa- tive of the Soviet Government, who is at the present time a memhrr of the Swedish Parliament. 128 Assemblyman McElligott. — But is he accredited from Soviet Russia to Sweden and recognized as a representative — a diplo- matic representative? The Witness. — Not in the usual sense. Assemlth nuiii McElligott. — Wliat is that? The Witness. — ISTot in the usual sense. Assemblyman McElligott. — ]^ot in the usual sense? The Witness. — 'No. Assemblyman McElligott. — And this individual is a member of the Swedish Parliament, is he ? The Witness. — Yes. Assemblyiiuui McElligott. — And he himself is an official of the Government of Sweden, is he ? The Witness. — Yes, he is a member of the Sweden Parliament. Assemblyman ]\[cElligott. — He could not act both as a meml>er of the Swedish Parliament and as a representative of the Russian government, could he ? The Witness. — Yes. Assemblyman McElligott. — He could ? The Witness. — Yes. Assemblyman McElligott. — Responding to both governments ? The Witness.- — jSTo. A member of parliament does not take part in any government. Assemblyman McElligott. — T fail to see, Mr. Martens, how he could serve two masters. The Witness. — Especially if he wants to make out as his master's friend — why not ? By the Attorney-General : Q. Is there any one of the persons who delivered money to you from Soviet Russia now in the United States, to your knowledge ? A. jSTot to mv knowledge. 129 Q. Are there any of the messengers who delivered any of the messages from the Kussian government to you now in the United States, to your knowledge ? A. I decline to answer. The Attorney-General. — I ask the Chairman to direct the wit- ness to answer. The Chairman. — I'he Chair so directs. The Witness. — I decline to answer. By the Attorney-General: Q. Are there any messengers to whom you have delivered mes- sages to your government, or to be delivered to your government, now in the United States, to your knowledge? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. You testified at a former hearing that the original com- munications between you and the Soviet government were kept by you, but not kept in your home or your office ? A. That is right. Q. But that you kept them in a private place ? A. Yes. Q. Where are such papers kei>t '( A. I decline to answer. The Chairman. — The Chair instructs you to answer. The Witness. — I decline to answer. By the Attorney-General: Q. I show you a paper, Mr. Martens, which purports to be a photographic copy of your credentials { A. That is right. Q. Is that a correct representation of the official paper? A. (Examining.) Yes, that is correct. Q. That is in Russian ? A. Yes. The Attorney-General. — I offer it in evidence. The Chairman. — Received. (Photographic copy of credentials of ^[r. ^Martens, referred to, received in evidence and marked Exhi])it Xo. 347 of this date.) The Attorney-General. — I will ask the witness to translate it for us. The Witness. — The translation is: " Be it known that the Russian citizen, Ludwig Christian Alexander Karl ^Nfartens, who is living in the United States 5 130 of Aiiierica, is appointed as a representative of the People's Coniniissariat for Foreign Atfaii'S in the United States of America.'' Signed by '' The People's Coinmissionar for Foreign Affairs, Chicherine," and " Secretary F. Schenkin," The Attorney-General. — Will you translate the little heading that is in the corner of the exhibit ? The Witness. — '' Russian Socialist Soviet Republic, People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs, Bureau of the People's Com- missariat. 2d of January, 1919, 'No. 918. Moscow, corner of Spiridonofka and Patrnardsky side street. Telephone number 42996." ^ I ' The Chairman. — The document that you have read in evi- dence as your certificate of authority is the only authority you have for acting and carrying on the work you are now carrying on in the United States? The Witness. ^ — jSTo, I have another document authorizing me to make contracts, to make payments, receive money and do all business concerned with Soviet Russia. The Chairman. — Who signed that ? The Witness. — Also the People's Ccmimissariat for Foreign Affairs. The Chairman. — And have you that paper? The Witness. — Yes, not by me, but T think I have it in the office. The Chairman. — You can produce it? The Witness. — Yes. The Cbairman.^ — And you will produce it ? The Witness. — Yes, By Assemblyman IMcElligott : Q. ^Ir. ]\rartens, is there somebody besides yourself acting as a representative from Russia in this country? A. !N"olx)dy. Q. Is the Ambassador who is accredited from the old govern- ment still acting in that capacitv in Washington ? A. In the capacity of — what do you mean ? 131 Q. In the capacity of Ambassador as rcprcscuriuii' liussia '. A. Well, you refer probably to .Mr. Bahkinateif, who was previously on the Russian Embassy. Q. Yes. lie is still in \\'ashini>ton, isn't be ^ A. Il(> occupies that building but that is his only function. Q. And he is still in communicatimi witii Russi;i, isiTr \\v '. A. Yes, I think so. Q. And he has access to the Department of State of this gov- ernmeut as representing- the Russian government ? A. Yes. Q. And has he prevented you from obtaining recognition in Washington'^ A. 1 don't know anything al>out that. Anyhow Mr. Bahkmatieff does not rei)resent anything in this country. Q. You have never had any connnunication with him '. A. No. Q. "^'ou ignore him absolutely^ A. Yes. Mr. Stevenson. — You nuide a denuind on him for $153,000,000? The Witness. — I did. Mr. Stevenson. — A\'liicb was in his custody? The Witness.— Yes, $150,000,000. By Assemblyman ^IcElligott: Q. Did be reply giving bis reasons for not giving you the $153,000,000? a! Xo, he did nor. Q. But the fact is that he has possession of that mom\v >. A. Yes, he has, and he has spent it. Q. Spent it on government work for Russia '. A. Spent it mostly for paying salaries for his assistants. Q. Salaries of pei'sons who represent iiussia \ A. Well, assist- ing him, doing nothing. The Cbairnuin. — 1 shoubl like to have that other i)aj)er, ^[r. Martens, ])laced in evidence which you say shows your authority. You will produce that and put it in evid(>nc(^ at a subsequent meeting? The Witness. — Yes, sir. By the Att(U'ney-Cieneral : Q. ^Ir. ^lartens, have aiiv papers connecte(l with your bureau or with you personally been removed recently froui the state of Xew Yoi-k { A. Well, now recentlv { 132 Q. Well, since we commenced examining- you here ? I have forgotten how long- ago that was, Liit sometime in June, wasn't it? A. ^Xe]\. my rule is Mr. Newton, not to keep any paper that I don't want any])ody to have in the office, since this raid on our bureau. Q. My question is if you have sent out of the jurisdiction of the State of ISTew York any paper ? A. Yes, I did. Q. And where did you send such paper ? A. I decline to answer. The Chairman. — The Chair instructs the witness to ansAver. The Witness. — I decline to answer. By the Attorney-General : Q, You did send them out of the State of l^ew York, and how did you send them out of the State of New York ? A. Partly by messengers, partly by mail, Q. You know who the messenger war, the r.ame of the man who tr:ok thf iTi ? A. Yes. sir. (). Did the same person lake all of the p:ipevs? A. Most of them. Q- You could .'zivr the m^me of the iiprsj'u who was the messen- ger, if you cared to i A. Yes. O. Wlio was it ? A. T dr'cline to answer. The Chnivmon. — The ("hr.ir gives the saiDe instructions to the wifTie^s. The W;lu?ss. — r decline In answer, ^.[r. Chairman. By the Attorney-General : Q- r ihii-'k T askrd you where those i^ipers were. A. Yes, you did ask me. O. And you declined lo answer? A. Yes. 0. And llie chairman lias i)istruct'd y(m to answej- and you tlien drcline to answer? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was anv one of the ]nessenf?;ers an em])lovee of vour office? A. No. Q. Or any of them mendiers of your staff? A. No. O. T^i'd A'ou f-end anv of t^^ns.'^ panel's to Chif'ago? A. No. Q. T have not guessed the right place? A. (Laughing) No. 133 Q. These j)ai)ei-s tliat you have sent out of the jurisdiction of the State of New \'nrk ar(> subject to \-our r(H'all. arc thev not? A. Yes. Q. And yon have no donht tliat if you sliould need iliciii and want them, upon your i-e<|ucst lhcv would l)e hrouuhl hack to you? A. Yes, sii', yes. By Assend)lynuin McElligott: (^. Are tliose papcM's (uitsidc ol' tlic Tuitetl States or within tlie United States? A. Within the United States. Q. They have not heen sent to another country ? A. Xo. The Chairman. — Now, Mr. Afartens, can you he here to-mor- row mornin with you tliat other paper that is to he phieed in evidence ? The Witness.— Yes, sir. The Chairman. — Then we will advise you tomorrow morning what action the Committee will take. Mv. Clark, you can attend here tomorrow mornini:' ;it 10.30? -Mr. Clark. — Yes, sir. The C^liairuuin. — And .Air. Xuortcva. you will attend here to- morrow morniuii at 10.30 i Mr. Xuoi'teva. — Yes, sir. The Chairinan. — The Connuittee stands adjonrncil until 10.30 o'clock tomorrow morninp,-. (Whereupon at 4.10 p. m. tli" mcvMiuii rece-scd to l-^'iday at 10.30 a. m., Decemher 12ti), liUtt). 134 MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES City Haix. City of jSTew York, Friday, December 12, 1919. The Committee met pursuant to recess (11:15 a. m.) Present: Assemblyman Martin, Vice-Chairman ; Assemblyman McElligott, Senator Walters, Assemblyman Pellett, Assemblyman Burr. A ppearances : Hon. Charles D. Xewton, Attorney-General ; Hon. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General; Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel. ]\Ir. Charles A. Hotalino;. Sero-eant-iit-Ai'ms, The Chairman.— Proceed. LuDwiG C. A. K. Marte:s's, having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified as follows : By Mr. Berger : Q. You agreed yesterday, Mr. Martens, to produce another credential in addition to what you have? A. Yes. Q. Have you that ? A. Yes. (Witness produces paper.) Q. This is a translation ? A. Xo, it is a copy of the original. Q. Was the original in English ? A, English. (Mr. Berger hands credential to the Chairman.) Mr. Berger. — I offer this in evidence, Mr. Chairman. 135 The Chairmau. — Received. (Copy of credential received in evidence and marked Exhibit Xo. 348 of this date.) By the Attorney-General. — I assume it may be copied in evidence. By Mr. Berger : Q. You do not want that paper back, do you ? A. Xo. (The exhibit referred to is as follows:) " Republique Russe Federative Des Soviets Commissariat du Peuple Pour Les Affaires Etkaxgeres Le -loth May 1919 Xo. o34/k Moscou TOl 4-23-65 To Whom It May Concern. The People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic hereby de- clares that citiiJen Ludvig Martens is authorized to take in charge and administration, in the name of the Russan Fed- erative Socialist Soviet Republic, all movable and real es- tates of the former Embassy and Consullates and all prop- erties on the territoiy of the United States of America be- longing to the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Repub- lic. Citizen L. Martens is also entrusted with the right to solicit and answer claims, within the limits of the United States of America, in all cases where material interests of the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic are en- gaged, to prosecute all civil and criminal cases on l>ehalf of the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic, in tri- bunals, courts and other institutions of the United States of Ainerica. Citizen L. ^Fartens is entrusted to defray all expenses on bf'luilf of the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic 136 autl to receive all moneys claimed by the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Repnhlie in the United States of America, and issue receipts. People's Commissary for Foreign Affairs, (Signed) G. TCHITCHERm. Seal of the People's C^onnnissary. Secretary (Signed) J. Lewon. I hereby testify that the above is a true copy of the orig- inal document. l^ew York, Dec. 11, 1919. (Signed) S. :N'U0RTEVA, Secretary of the Riissiari Soviet Government Bureau." By ]\rr. Berger: Q. The paper, Exhibit N'o. 348, is a true and correct copy of a document that you received from Soviet Russia, signed by G. Tchitcherin ? A. Yes. Q. And is the original in English, as this is? A. Yes. Q. And this is a true and correct copy in every detail of the paper vou received? A. Yes. Q. What would you designate this, ^Iv. Martens? A. Oh. I don't know the exact term to be used for the paper ; but it is sup- posed to be the power to make all kinds of financial and com- mercial agreements in America. Q. Well, there is nothing in this paper that designates you as an Ambassador, is there? A. ISTo. Q. Or, as a Consul or Yice-Consul ? A. l^o. Q. Nor is there anything in this paper that, on the face of it,- clothes you with any Ambassadorial powers ? A. No. This paper only refers to the financial and economical matters. Q. Were there any other papers that you have, that, in your opinion, clothe you with Ambassadorial powers ? A. The only paper was the one yesterday. Q. The one that was offered in evidence yesterday ? A. Yes, sir. 187 Q. But outside of the one that was oli'ered iu evidence yester- day and this, you have other credentials? A. No. Q. Do you know a man named Xathan Chabro, 'Mr. Martens? A. Xo, I never met him. but 1 know of the existence of this man. Q. ^'(ni have nxn-er met him ( A. No. I do know of his exist- ence, thouiih. Q. Who is he? A. I don't know. Q. Have you ever communicated with him in any way? A. No, I have not communicated, but I have received a letter from him. Q. When did you receive a letter from him? A. About a month and a half ago, I think. Q. Where is he now, if you know ? A. In Sweden. Q. What part of Sweden? A. Stockholm. Q. So that all you know about Nathan Chabro is that you are informed that he is in Sweden and that you received a letter from him about a month and a half ago ? A. Yes. Q. Is that all you know about him? A. That is all I know. Q. You have not changed your determination, Mr. ]\Iartens, not to answer the various questions that were asked you yesterday ? A. No. I have not. Q. Probably you have been informed that a co])y of the order ■svas served on Mr, ]\f alone ? A. T was not informed. I have not seen !Mr. Mai one. Q. I will inform you of that fact now, that he was served with a copy of the order. A. My intention is to appeal. Q. Your intention is to appeal from the order of ^Fr. .Justice Green ban m ? A. Yes. Mr. Bero-er. — T ask that Mr. Martens l)e excused at this time. I want to call another witness. The Cliairmaii. — Tlio |)a])er that was iiiti'()(hic('(l in evidence veslerihiv. as vour ccitilicate of office, is the ]):\\h'v on which you rely to ;;('t as su])|)osr(l Ambassador, is it? The Witiuvs. — Yes. r.y Ass( inblynian .McKlli^ott : Q. Was tliat received in cnidence? Tlie Chairman. — ^'e^. that is in eviihMice. 138 The Witness. — That is the original paper. The Chairman. — Do yon constnie that paper to be snfficient to allow you to attempt to spread propaganda to influence public opinion so as to bring pressure on the authorities at Washington to recognize the Government? The Witness. — Well, yes, the paper is sufficient for my activities. The Chairman. — For your activities ? The Witness. — Yes. The Chairman. — In evei*y way ? The Witness. — Yes. The Chairman. — All right. Mr. Berger. — That is all just now, Mr. Martens. Tlie Chairman. — Mr. Martens, just a moment. If we want to examine you further and we send you word, I suppose you will be present ? The Witness. — Oh, yes.